# Vaccine



## Multi Sport

I think people already knew this but this is further confirmation. 









						No point vaccinating those who’ve had COVID-19: Cleveland Clinic study suggests
					

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.




					www.news-medical.net


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## Patandpats

Multi Sport said:


> I think people already knew this but this is further confirmation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No point vaccinating those who’ve had COVID-19: Cleveland Clinic study suggests
> 
> 
> The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news-medical.net


The Cleveland Clinic tells FOX 8, “We don’t know how long the immune system will protect against reinfection or protect against variants. We still recommend those eligible receive the vaccine.”

The statement goes on to say, “This data could guide vaccination efforts should there be a shortage of vaccine supply and in areas where vaccine supply is limited.”


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## dad4

Sample size is pretty darn small.  Only 5% of participants were previously infected.  

They were trying to draw conclusions from a sample size of 1220 previously infected but recently vaccinated patients.  It is no surprise that they couldn’t get a significant result.  The study was completely underpowered.  

This is why their confidence interval was “0 to infinity” for the previously infected group.  The data didn’t say anything this time.

You’d need a considerably larger study to say anything other than “we don’t know.”.  Preferably in India, where you can find out about the value of the vaccine against a new variant.

I really wish they would stop printed underpowered studies as proof of a negative.  There is a statistical standard for demonstrating the lack of a correlation.   This study does not meet it.


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## Multi Sport

Patandpats said:


> The Cleveland Clinic tells FOX 8, “We don’t know how long the immune system will protect against reinfection or protect against variants. We still recommend those eligible receive the vaccine.”
> 
> The statement goes on to say, “This data could guide vaccination efforts should there be a shortage of vaccine supply and in areas where vaccine supply is limited.”


Protect against reinfected..
Well, how many reinfected people has there been? And how many reports of people getting infected once vaccinated has there been?


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## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> Sample size is pretty darn small.  Only 5% of participants were previously infected.
> 
> They were trying to draw conclusions from a sample size of 1220 previously infected but recently vaccinated patients.  It is no surprise that they couldn’t get a significant result.  The study was completely underpowered.
> 
> This is why their confidence interval was “0 to infinity” for the previously infected group.  The data didn’t say anything this time.
> 
> You’d need a considerably larger study to say anything other than “we don’t know.”.  Preferably in India, where you can find out about the value of the vaccine against a new variant.
> 
> I really wish they would stop printed underpowered studies as proof of a negative.  There is a statistical standard for demonstrating the lack of a correlation.   This study does not meet it.


So would you agree that 4k in a study group is woefully low?


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## Multi Sport

Now just remember,  this is reported cases, so in reality the number is higher...









						CDC says heart inflammation cases were higher than expected in 16- to 24-year-olds after second Covid vaccine shot, but still rare
					

The number of cases of a heart inflammation condition in 16- to 24-year-olds was higher than expected after they received their second dose, the CDC said.




					www.cnbc.com


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Now just remember,  this is reported cases, so in reality the number is higher...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC says heart inflammation cases were higher than expected in 16- to 24-year-olds after second Covid vaccine shot, but still rare
> 
> 
> The number of cases of a heart inflammation condition in 16- to 24-year-olds was higher than expected after they received their second dose, the CDC said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


"...but still rare"


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> "...but still rare"


Yes….but not as rare as what has been reported for patients who contracted Covid, yet there was a push to cancel Sports for fear of complications from Myocarditis…do you remember that?  So why not the out cry now?  Hypocrites!!!


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## dad4

Multi Sport said:


> So would you agree that 4k in a study group is woefully low?


Depends on whether you are trying to find a high probability event, or a low probability event.

For things like presidential polls, 4k is just fine.  Probability of voting each way is about 1/2, which is just perfect.

If you are looking for a low probability event- such as voting Libertarian, then you need to increase your sample size to accurately measure it.

Reinfection by covid in Cleveland was a very low probability event; measuring it requires a much larger sample size.


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> "...but still rare"


You really are clueless Magoo..
Like I posted.. reported cases.

Go back to posting a poll about bathroom habits or how Russia spies on all foreign visitors.


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## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> Depends on whether you are trying to find a high probability event, or a low probability event.
> 
> For things like presidential polls, 4k is just fine.  Probability of voting each way is about 1/2, which is just perfect.
> 
> If you are looking for a low probability event- such as voting Libertarian, then you need to increase your sample size to accurately measure it.
> 
> Reinfection by covid in Cleveland was a very low probability event; measuring it requires a much larger sample size.


The sample size for if the vaccine works for kids 12 and over is actually less then 4k.


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> You really are clueless Magoo..
> Like I posted.. reported cases.
> 
> Go back to posting a poll about bathroom habits or how Russia spies on all foreign visitors.


I don't do polls.

Russia spies on every foreign visitor of interest to them.


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## espola

espola said:


> I don't do polls.
> 
> Russia spies on every foreign visitor of interest to them.











						Was That A Russian Spy, Or Am I Getting Paranoid?
					

Journalists, dissidents, human rights workers all tell stories of being followed and harassed by Russia's security services. They range from the comical to the frightening.




					www.npr.org


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> I don't do polls.
> 
> Russia spies on every foreign visitor of interest to them.


No no...you said EVERY foreign visitor and you do polls Magoo. 

Coocoo..please continue.


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> No no...you said EVERY foreign visitor and you do polls Magoo.
> 
> Coocoo..please continue.


I have never posted a poll here or any other web forum.  I don't even know how to do it here.

The article I linked supports my point.  Didn't you read it?

About 20 years ago, my manager was considering sending me to a conference in Russia along with one of our suppliers, who was located in Finland.  I even bought Russian and Finnish phrase books.  The whole effort evaporated when we found out about the security issues.

And more to the point -- they certainly spied on t during his visits there before he was President.


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> I have never posted a poll here or any other web forum.  I don't even know how to do it here.
> 
> The article I linked supports my point.  Didn't you read it?
> 
> About 20 years ago, my manager was considering sending me to a conference in Russia along with one of our suppliers, who was located in Finland.  I even bought Russian and Finnish phrase books.  The whole effort evaporated when we found out about the security issues.
> 
> And more to the point -- they certainly spied on t during his visits there before he was President.


Coocoo...

Continue with your bathroom fetish. What was it again? Something about dropping trouser or using your fly.

You're a sick guy....


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Coocoo...
> 
> Continue with your bathroom fetish. What was it again? Something about dropping trouser or using your fly.
> 
> You're a sick guy....


I had never even thought about that choice until you posted your fable.

So who's the sick guy?


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> I had never even thought about that choice until you posted your fable.
> 
> So who's the sick guy?


Still you..always you..and a liar as well.

Please continue..
Maybe you'll find another fetish to.post about. Oh wait... girls underwear. That's your other fetish, right?


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Still you..always you..and a liar as well.
> 
> Please continue..
> Maybe you'll find another fetish to.post about. Oh wait... girls underwear. That's your other fetish, right?


Did you catch that thing I posted recently from the old philosopher?


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## dad4

I’m surprised you’re even arguing about the t in Russia thing.

Any billionaire who travels to Russia or China should just assume they are being monitored.  Never mind political aspirations.  The possibility for industrial espionage or blackmail is just too high.


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## espola

dad4 said:


> I’m surprised you’re even arguing about the t in Russia thing.
> 
> Any billionaire who travels to Russia or China should just assume they are being monitored.  Never mind political aspirations.  The possibility for industrial espionage or blackmail is just too high.


Even for ordinary non-billionaire citizens, anything that requires the presentation of a passport or use of a bank card will be noted and cataloged -- customs entry points, hotels, airlines, trains, etc.  Even back in my Navy days, we were cautioned before going on liberty in foreign ports to be cautious of overly-friendly people who asked lots of questions.


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## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> I’m surprised you’re even arguing about the t in Russia thing.
> 
> Any billionaire who travels to Russia or China should just assume they are being monitored.  Never mind political aspirations.  The possibility for industrial espionage or blackmail is just too high.


That's not it. Magoo thinks Russia spies on EVERY foreign visitor.  

He's really coocoo...


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## Multi Sport

A cruise ship that was running at 30% capacity has two passengers test positive for Covid 19. Thing is, all passengers had to be fully vaccinated and have a negative test prior to boarding...


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## Multi Sport

A bad "batch". Well that's comforting...









						FDA tells Johnson & Johnson to toss 60M COVID-19 vaccine doses over contamination concerns: report
					

Johnson & Johnson confirmed that the FDA authorized two batches of COVID-19 vaccine produced at the Emergent BioSolutions facility but did not comment on a report that the regulatory agency said to throw out 60 million other doses over concerns of possible contamination.




					www.foxnews.com


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## N00B

Multi Sport said:


> please continue.


Hey… that was my schtick!


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## Multi Sport

N00B said:


> Hey… that was my schtick!


That been one of Magoos tag lines for as long as I can recall... that and urinal habits.


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## Multi Sport

This could be of concern:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices announced Thursday it will be holding an “emergency meeting” next week to discuss the COVID-19 vaccines in adolescents and reports of myocarditis, or inflammation of the heart, after mRNA vaccination.



The CDC said 226 cases reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System in those 30 years old and under, out of 475, “meet CDC working case definition” of myocarditis/pericarditis. Reporting in the VAERS system “generally, cannot determine cause and effect,” the CDC noted. 

Most recovered, but 15 are still in the hospital and three are in the intensive care unit, though two of those patients were described as having “significant comorbidities.”


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## Multi Sport

I wonder if CE was vaccinated...


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## N00B

Multi Sport said:


> I wonder if CE was vaccinated...


I wonder why that’s relevant unless it was recent…

… and only if the the medical evaluation of the event and it’s cause are in any way related to potential vaccination side effects.


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## Multi Sport

N00B said:


> I wonder why that’s relevant unless it was recent…
> 
> … and only if the the medical evaluation of the event and it’s cause are in any way related to potential vaccination side effects.


Apparently he suffered a heart attack. Apparently,  one of the side affects of the covid vaccine is cardiomegaly.


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## Glitterhater

This states that CE has never had COVID nor been vaccinated:



			Redirect Notice


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## paytoplay

Glitterhater said:


> This states that CE has never had COVID nor been vaccinated:
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


Darn! There goes that conspiracy theory!


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## Multi Sport

paytoplay said:


> Darn! There goes that conspiracy theory!


What theory is that?


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## Glitterhater

paytoplay said:


> Darn! There goes that conspiracy theory!


I see what you're saying, (and I am not on team conspiracy!) but even I kind of wondered for a sec! Only because I had just recently read about the young basketball player who collapsed and ended up with the heart inflammation that's been tied to covid patients. Looks like CE had straight up cardiac arrest- yikes!


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## Multi Sport

CDC says vaccine link to heart inflammation is stronger than previously thought
					

Although it has not been officially confirmed to be an associated problem, the agency is investigating 226 cases of myocarditis and pericarditis among young, vaccinated men.




					thehill.com


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## crush

Multi Sport said:


> CDC says vaccine link to heart inflammation is stronger than previously thought
> 
> 
> Although it has not been officially confirmed to be an associated problem, the agency is investigating 226 cases of myocarditis and pericarditis among young, vaccinated men.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


I just read that CDC is thinking about calling off the Vax for under 17 because of heart inflammation.


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## paytoplay

crush said:


> I just read that CDC is thinking about calling off the Vax for under 17 because of heart inflammation.


It’s probably important to point out that the CDC recommends vaccinating children under 17. cdc.gov faq


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## crush

paytoplay said:


> It’s probably important to point out that the CDC recommends vaccinating children under 17. cdc.gov faq


I recommend to wait and see what happens to everyone first.  CDC has big concerns now because of the spike in heart inflammation for kids under 18. Our kids can't be lab rats without the real rats going first pay to play.  It's not that big of an ER for kids to rush this.  No chance of dying but a chance of getting heart problems and problems that will come later.  Plus the boy who played basketball has blood clots as we speak and his mom is 100% kicking herself for taking the recommendation of a drug that is not tested yet.


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## Multi Sport

crush said:


> I just read that CDC is thinking about calling off the Vax for under 17 because of heart inflammation.


Wear did you read that? Can you post it?


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## Multi Sport

Indonesia is having a hard time. Many of theiir vaccinated Healthcare workers and doctors are coming down with the Delta variant of COVID-19.


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## Multi Sport

At what point will a country just stop the all vaxs? 









						Australia Restricts AstraZeneca Covid Shot To Over 60s Over Blood Clot Risks, Joining Italy, Greece And Others
					

The availability of other vaccines and Australia’s low case rate changed the cost-benefit calculation for those taking the vaccine, officials said.




					www.forbes.com


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## Multi Sport

My oldest is fully vaccinated as is his wife. They now both have covid. My daughter in law is finally recovering after a week of being bed ridden, my son is dealing with a persistent cough and sore throat. Oh..and they both had Covid back in 2019. Daughter in law is reacting the same as she did in 19' while my son is reacting much better.


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## Grace T.

Multi Sport said:


> My oldest is fully vaccinated as is his wife. They now both have covid. My daughter in law is finally recovering after a week of being bed ridden, my son is dealing with a persistent cough and sore throat. Oh..and they both had Covid back in 2019. Daughter in law is reacting the same as she did in 19' while my son is reacting much better.


Both tested and confirmed both now and in 19?  If not lots of people have been falling ill with flu, rsv, adenoviruses and other corona (my bestie was confirmed a week ago with another Rona virus)

But in any case, the data out of Israel seems to indicate that while the vaccine is effective in preventing hospitalization and death, it may be as low as 40% effective in preventing illness. If so we are nearing the point where the authorities will have to admit the vaccine had failed at least as sold (that it would end this thing). Two possible futures: this ends with govts declaring the unvaccinated a public menace and once eu approval removed dragging them (including y’all’s kids) kicking and screaming into vaccination, or we just accept we’re all going to get it and move on.


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## Keepermom2

Grace T. said:


> Both tested and confirmed both now and in 19?  If not lots of people have been falling ill with flu, rsv, adenoviruses and other corona (my bestie was confirmed a week ago with another Rona virus)
> 
> But in any case, the data out of Israel seems to indicate that while the vaccine is effective in preventing hospitalization and death, it may be as low as 40% effective in preventing illness. If so we are nearing the point where the authorities will have to admit the vaccine had failed at least as sold (that it would end this thing). Two possible futures: this ends with govts declaring the unvaccinated a public menace and once eu approval removed dragging them (including y’all’s kids) kicking and screaming into vaccination, or we just accept we’re all going to get it and move on.


Then we consider the whole story.....

"Israel is averaging about 120 weekly hospital admissions, which is down from a peak of nearly 2,000 in January. So while cases are less than one-tenth of what they were then, hospitalizations are about one-sixteenth. And admissions to the intensive care unit are about one-twentieth, according to data collected by the University of Oxford. "

"All told, Israeli government data show the Pfizer vaccine is indeed significantly less effective at preventing coronavirus cases of the delta variant (64 percent) than it was for previous variants (95 percent). It’s also significantly less effective at preventing symptomatic cases (64 percent vs. 97 percent). *But it performs much more similarly when it comes to preventing serious cases and hospitalization (93 percent vs. 97.5 percent). " *

Wouldn't it be great if news outlets put forth all of the information instead of just the information that fits either their narrative or gets them ratings?!


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## Keepermom2

Multi Sport said:


> At what point will a country just stop the all vaxs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia Restricts AstraZeneca Covid Shot To Over 60s Over Blood Clot Risks, Joining Italy, Greece And Others
> 
> 
> The availability of other vaccines and Australia’s low case rate changed the cost-benefit calculation for those taking the vaccine, officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


"Dr. Karen L. Furie, chair of the Department of Neurology at Brown’s Warren Alpert Medical School, served as lead author of the report, which synthesized existing data from more than 81 million patients and found that risk of developing CVST blood clots is eight to 10 times higher following a COVID-19 infection as compared to the risk associated with receipt of a COVID-19 vaccine. "








						Rare blood clots more likely after COVID-19 infection than from vaccine, report finds
					

An analysis led by Brown University neurologist Dr. Karen L. Furie in partnership with the American Heart Association/American Stroke Association, put the post-vaccine risk of CVST in perspective.




					www.brown.edu


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## Grace T.

Keepermom2 said:


> Then we consider the whole story.....
> 
> "Israel is averaging about 120 weekly hospital admissions, which is down from a peak of nearly 2,000 in January. So while cases are less than one-tenth of what they were then, hospitalizations are about one-sixteenth. And admissions to the intensive care unit are about one-twentieth, according to data collected by the University of Oxford. "
> 
> "All told, Israeli government data show the Pfizer vaccine is indeed significantly less effective at preventing coronavirus cases of the delta variant (64 percent) than it was for previous variants (95 percent). It’s also significantly less effective at preventing symptomatic cases (64 percent vs. 97 percent). *But it performs much more similarly when it comes to preventing serious cases and hospitalization (93 percent vs. 97.5 percent). " *
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if news outlets put forth all of the information instead of just the information that fits either their narrative or gets them ratings?!


Yes but this forces us to make a choice…the wishful thinking that it’s pretty much behind us as of July 4 is over. Cases numbers are going to rise, as are hospitalizations since anyone admitted with covid for another reason such as giving birth will be counted as hospitalized since such individuals must be monitored but deaths are on the floor.   On the one hand, we can shut schools and resume lockdowns but then what’s the end game…the thing is going to keep mutating and people are going to get it…are we prepared to rob kids of multiple years of their short childhoods and continue these disruptions for several years. On the other hand we resume life as normal knowing deaths esp among the unvaccinated will be comparable to a bad flu season. And a spectrum of in between. 

The other thing is even with these breakthrough cases the unvaccinated are being painted as a threat to the vaccinated even though the virus would continue to circulate based on the Israeli numbers even with 100% vaccination not to mention the rest of the world won’t be vaccinated until 2023. When eu approval is removed and the vaccine gets full approval, this gets really nasty.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes but this forces us to make a choice…the wishful thinking that it’s pretty much behind us as of July 4 is over. Cases numbers are going to rise, as are hospitalizations since anyone admitted with covid for another reason such as giving birth will be counted as hospitalized since such individuals must be monitored but deaths are on the floor.   On the one hand, we can shut schools and resume lockdowns but then what’s the end game…the thing is going to keep mutating and people are going to get it…are we prepared to rob kids of multiple years of their short childhoods and continue these disruptions for several years. On the other hand we resume life as normal knowing deaths esp among the unvaccinated will be comparable to a bad flu season. And a spectrum of in between.
> 
> The other thing is even with these breakthrough cases the unvaccinated are being painted as a threat to the vaccinated even though the virus would continue to circulate based on the Israeli numbers even with 100% vaccination not to mention the rest of the world won’t be vaccinated until 2023. When eu approval is removed and the vaccine gets full approval, this gets really nasty.


Shut schools?  Who (other than Grace) is talking about shutting schools this fall?  That's not even on the table.

The smart move is just to follow Macron and require vaccinations for any high risk places.   There is no need to cater to gullible people who think vaccinations make people magnetic.  (I just touched a steel table.   No reaction.  You're safe.)


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Shut schools?  Who (other than Grace) is talking about shutting schools this fall?  That's not even on the table.
> 
> The smart move is just to follow Macron and require vaccinations for any high risk places.   There is no need to cater to gullible people who think vaccinations make people magnetic.  (I just touched a steel table.   No reaction.  You're safe.)


That’s funny. “Open schools” was in your parade of horribles in the other thread.


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## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny. “Open schools” was in your parade of horrible in the other thread.


Good morning Grace.  I woke up with a hangover.....lol!  I'm now drunk 24/7 and I can't drive anymore.


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## Ellejustus

I found a place to eat for me and my wife.


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## Ellejustus

*Fact

Vaxed people:*
Can still get Covid
Can still spread Covid
Can still die from Covid
*Can* potentially *die* from Vaccine

*Unvaxed people:*
Can still get Covid
Can still spread Covid
Can still die from Covid
*Cannot die* from Vaccine


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny. “Open schools” was in your parade of horribles in the other thread.


I just was asking who, other than you, is suggesting zoom classrooms for this fall.

Not me.  (Though there ought to be far more HVAC upgrade projects on campus right about now.).  Is there anyone?  Or can we just call it “Grace’s personal straw man”?


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I just was asking who, other than you, is suggesting zoom classrooms for this fall.
> 
> Not me.  (Though there ought to be far more HVAC upgrade projects on campus right about now.).  Is there anyone?  Or can we just call it “Grace’s personal straw man”?


YOU had it in your parade of horribles.


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## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> YOU had it in your parade of horribles.


I quote you “ now if you want to open schools, burn your masks, and ban vaccine…”.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I quote you “ now if you want to open schools, burn your masks, and ban vaccine…”.


Yes.  I am opposed to the _combination of open schools and weakening interventions._

Where does it say I think we should close schools?  I am saying that, in order to offset the effect of opening schools, we need to do more with masks, vaccinations, and moving outside.

Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes.  I am opposed to the _combination of open schools and weakening interventions._
> 
> Where does it say I think we should close schools?  I am saying that, in order to offset the effect of opening schools, we need to do more with masks, vaccinations, and moving outside.
> 
> Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative.


so essentially holding schools hostage to all the other stuff you want done, otherwise we close the schools.  Nice.  Glad you don't have any political power....whether its Macron's passports or this position re schools you always rush to an authoritarian position.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> so essentially holding schools hostage to all the other stuff you want done, otherwise we close the schools.  Nice.  Glad you don't have any political power....whether its Macron's passports or this position re schools you always rush to an authoritarian position.


Schools hostage?  Of course not.  Adults made this mess.  Let adults step up to solve it.

Just have high risk businesses require vaccine cards.  No card?  No indoor table.  

Your restaurant insists on operating in a manner which spreads disease?  No public health license for you.

Macron's on the right track.  Require vaccines for high transmission activities, and stop catering to the tin foil hat crowd.


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## tjinaz

dad4 said:


> Schools hostage?  Of course not.  Adults made this mess.  Let adults step up to solve it.
> 
> Just have high risk businesses require vaccine cards.  No card?  No indoor table.
> 
> Your restaurant insists on operating in a manner which spreads disease?  No public health license for you.
> 
> Macron's on the right track.  Require vaccines for high transmission activities, and stop catering to the tin foil hat crowd.


How are you going to verify they have taken the vaccine?  A card?  Seems pretty easy to fake.  As soon as the rule comes down there will instantly be over 70% vaccinated.. according to the cards.


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## espola

tjinaz said:


> How are you going to verify they have taken the vaccine?  A card?  Seems pretty easy to fake.


Yes, I admit, some people are going to be assholes no matter how bad the situation.  Consider Daniel Buckley, who disguised himself as a woman in order to get priority for a seat on one of the Titanic's lifeboats.


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## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Schools hostage?  Of course not.  Adults made this mess.  Let adults step up to solve it.
> 
> Just have high risk businesses require vaccine cards.  No card?  No indoor table.
> 
> Your restaurant insists on operating in a manner which spreads disease?  No public health license for you.
> 
> Macron's on the right track.  Require vaccines for high transmission activities, and stop catering to the tin foil hat crowd.


No Macron is not on the right track. 

The right track is not to demand papers to live your life and go to a restaurant, movie theater, baseball game, etc. 

Funny how no matter what some people want more and more restrictions on life. 

We are seeing in the west with high vax rates that cases are not coinciding with deaths. So lets stop trying to put in rules pretending that showing papers is going to make a difference relating to cases. 

Just say no.


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## Grace T.

shout out to bruddah.....









						Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?
					

Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## espola

Desert Hound said:


> No Macron is not on the right track.
> 
> The right track is not to demand papers to live your life and go to a restaurant, movie theater, baseball game, etc.
> 
> Funny how no matter what some people want more and more restrictions on life.
> 
> We are seeing in the west with high vax rates that cases are not coinciding with deaths. So lets stop trying to put in rules pretending that showing papers is going to make a difference relating to cases.
> 
> Just say no.


Another vote from the undertaker lobby?


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## espola

Grace T. said:


> shout out to bruddah.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?
> 
> 
> Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.israelnationalnews.com


"3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave."

The other choice is to get naturally infected, with all the risks that entails.


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## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The other choice is to get naturally infected, with all the risks that entails.


Per usual you cannot figure out what you read. 

It isn't saying dont get vaccinated. It is making the point that people that have gotten covid get reinfected at lower rates than people who are vaccinated. The conclusion being that if you have gotten covid already there is no need currently to get vaccinated.

The choice for you espola is to work on reading comprehension. Once you do that you could try having a position on something instead of being an idiot troll.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Yes, I admit, some people are going to be assholes no matter how bad the situation.  Consider Daniel Buckley, who disguised himself as a woman in order to get priority for a seat on one of the Titanic's lifeboats.


If he identified as a woman I don't see any problem with that.  Just sounds like she was ahead of her time.


----------



## dad4

tjinaz said:


> How are you going to verify they have taken the vaccine?  A card?  Seems pretty easy to fake.  As soon as the rule comes down there will instantly be over 70% vaccinated.. according to the cards.


Cards are enough.  A few people will fake them.  Most people are better than that.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Per usual you cannot figure out what you read.
> 
> It isn't saying dont get vaccinated. It is making the point that people that have gotten covid get reinfected at lower rates than people who are vaccinated. The conclusion being that if you have gotten covid already there is no need currently to get vaccinated.
> 
> The choice for you espola is to work on reading comprehension. Once you do that you could try having a position on something instead of being an idiot troll.


"Conclusion"?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes.  I am opposed to the _combination of open schools and weakening interventions._
> 
> Where does it say I think we should close schools?  I am saying that, in order to offset the effect of opening schools, we need to do more with masks, vaccinations, and moving outside.
> 
> Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative.


BTW I told you masks would never be enough for you and your ilk.  We aren't even very much into this wave and you are already here.  Anyone want to guess where he's at when we hit peak?

While I freely concede it might not continue, so far zero impact for the lifting of restrictions in the UK.  The fact that the peak coincided with the removal of restrictions is once and for all a good test case for the impact of moderate restrictions.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> BTW I told you masks would never be enough for you and your ilk.  We aren't even very much into this wave and you are already here.  Anyone want to guess where he's at when we hit peak?
> 
> While I freely concede it might not continue, so far zero impact for the lifting of restrictions in the UK.  The fact that the peak coincided with the removal of restrictions is once and for all a good test case for the impact of moderate restrictions.


This is one of those cases where you need twice as many words (unless you are just talking to yourself).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> This is one of those cases where you need twice as many words (unless you are just talking to yourself).


See above note from hound re your comprehension.


----------



## Grace T.

Doh.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420102336270278661


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> See above note from hound re your comprehension.


Tag team?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Tag team?


More like pin the tail on the idiot.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Doh.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420102336270278661


Looks like a good reason for everybody to wear masks.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Looks like a good reason for everybody to wear masks.


a. we were told Asia had such wonderful results because they wore masks.
b. The masks by look at any of the curves aren't working so great against the delta.  Even if we assume arguendo the masks did something the first time around, they ain't working so great now.
c. If vaccinated and unvaccinated have similar viral loads, it's not like masking the vaccinated is going to protect others any more than masking the unvaccinated.
d. In the end this is just the admin bowing to its freaked out COVID base and giving them something to feel better about.  It will do nothing to change things, particularly in the light of the transmissibility of the Delta.
e. Deaths and serious illness are still being controlled by the vaccine.  Time to get back to normal.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. we were told Asia had such wonderful results because they wore masks.
> b. The masks by look at any of the curves aren't working so great against the delta.  Even if we assume arguendo the masks did something the first time around, they ain't working so great now.


So, masks were enough in June 2020, but are not enough now?

It's almost as though the current numbers are being driven by a new disease that is 2-3 times as transmissible as the original covid-19.

Check the news.  There might be an article on it.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> So, masks were enough in June 2020, but are not enough now?
> 
> It's almost as though the current numbers are being driven by a new disease that is 2-3 times as transmissible as the original covid-19.
> 
> Check the news.  There might be an article on it.




OK ok ok ok ok ok ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I give up and surrender for God's sake.  I asked Jesus to hurry up and intervene but it looks like I just have to cave in and give up my rights to privacy.  Although it's not approved by the FDA and it's causing some people to die.  That' according to some news outlets outside of the USA and some on SM platforms.  I will take the jab so I can be just like you Dad and Husker Poop and Uncle Espola.  I don't like how some of my old pals are treating me Dad and their scaring me with idle threats.  Plus, I will wear mask as well.  I just cant handle it anymore.  I never thought in my wildest dreams that people who get caught cheating would stoop this low.  It's much deeper and evil.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, masks were enough in June 2020, but are not enough now?
> 
> It's almost as though the current numbers are being driven by a new disease that is 2-3 times as transmissible as the original covid-19.
> 
> Check the news.  There might be an article on it.



and if so masks, particularly the cloth ones, are even more useless than they were then


----------



## Grace T.

‘The harm done by lockdown will last for decades’
					

Carl Heneghan on where we went wrong in the fight against Covid.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> ‘The harm done by lockdown will last for decades’
> 
> 
> Carl Heneghan on where we went wrong in the fight against Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.spiked-online.com


Do you know why opinions are like assholes?

Everybody has one, and yours stinks.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Do you know why opinions are like assholes?
> 
> Everybody has one, and yours stinks.


“Oh Magoo, you’ve done it again!”


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> and if so masks, particularly the cloth ones, are even more useless than they were then


Nope.  Masks, and other NPI, cause the same percentage reduction as ever.

The difference is that different variants have different R0:   30% of 3 is less than 1, but 30% of 7 is greater than 1.

Therefore, a 70% reduction in transmission kills vanilla covid, but allows exponential growth of Delta.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nope.  Masks, and other NPI, cause the same percentage reduction as ever.
> 
> The difference is that different variants have different R0:   30% of 3 is less than 1, but 30% of 7 is greater than 1.
> 
> Therefore, a 70% reduction in transmission kills vanilla covid, but allows exponential growth of Delta.


“Kills”…that’s funny

Again why are we doing this if death and serious illness is on the floor?  And look at Asia…if your point was masks “killed” (again too funny) in Asia look how your masks are working now. 

And math boy: 30% of 7 > 30% of 3 plus you’ve committed the fallacy that the percentages are static…if the viral loads are greater the percentages won’t be static…hence Asia assuming arguendo masks even did anything the first time around.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> “Kills”…that’s funny
> 
> Again why are we doing this if death and serious illness is on the floor?  And look at Asia…if your point was masks “killed” (again too funny) in Asia look how your masks are working now.
> 
> And math boy: 30% of 7 > 30% of 3 plus you’ve committed the fallacy that the percentages are static…if the viral loads are greater the percentages won’t be static…hence Asia assuming arguendo masks even did anything the first time around.


Math Boy is also Mask Boy....lol.  I'm getting my Jabs Grace.  What is the safest of all of the Jabs? This dad guy must like to hide his face for some reason.  I have some pals in the know and unfortunately, some folks what everyone in mask again so they can do this and that and more of that. However, I heard that the ___________________ is going to handle this and all of that and it wont last that long.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Math Boy is also Mask Boy....lol.  I'm getting my Jabs Grace.  What is the safest of all of the Jabs? This dad guy must like to hide his face for some reason.  I have some pals in the know and unfortunately, some folks what everyone in mask again so they can do this and that and more of that. However, I heard that the ___________________ is going to handle this and all of that and it wont last that long.


Safest is probably Pfizer.  None of them has much risk, though.

You might want J&J just so you don't have to go in twice.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Do you know why opinions are like assholes?
> 
> Everybody has one, and yours stinks.


Thanks for sharing your stink.


----------



## Desert Hound

Despite cases not having a similar or anywhere close in rise in deaths, the idiots in charge want masks, restrictions, etc.

Deaths haven't gone up in any meaningful way. Look at the data.

Why some pretend otherwise is amazing. Those at risk have been vaxxed at high rates.

Time to move on with life. 

72 million kids. 350 deaths. And these idiots think they need a vax and to mask up at school.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Despite cases not having a similar or anywhere close in rise in deaths, the idiots in charge want masks, restrictions, etc.
> 
> Deaths haven't gone up in any meaningful way. Look at the data.
> 
> Why some pretend otherwise is amazing. Those at risk have been vaxxed at high rates.
> 
> Time to move on with life.
> 
> 72 million kids. 350 deaths. And these idiots think they need a vax and to mask up at school.


Any death is horrible and we all agree on that.  Of the 350 deaths Hound, how many were 1000% healthy and they caught the Rona one day and the next their dead?  I guess Espola thinks I play you too?  DH is you, not me.  EJ is sick & tired of all this.  His tummy hurts so he might take tomorrow off. Special guest avatar is in the works for tomorrow Hound.  Disregard my last PM about never coming back here.....lol!


----------



## Desert Hound

We have know since around May or June a yr ago the young have essentially zero risk.

And yet the want them to wear masks? People worry about kids and think a vax for them can't come soon enough.

Look at the data.

In a year and a half the young who are roughly 72 million have had 350 deaths.

If one looks at the number and thinks yeah they need to wear masks and when possible get them vaxxed is an idiot. The data clearly shows they are SAFE.

If one is scared get vaxxed. If as they say vaccines works...and the data shows they do work, then we don't need to do idiotic things. We don't need vax passport, mask mandates, restrictions, etc.

The people who were at risk before have gotten the jab at very high rates. Which is why we have seen deaths hit the floor.

That is a victory.

Move on. 

Move on and live your life.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Despite cases not having a similar or anywhere close in rise in deaths, the idiots in charge want masks, restrictions, etc.
> 
> Deaths haven't gone up in any meaningful way. Look at the data.
> 
> Why some pretend otherwise is amazing. Those at risk have been vaxxed at high rates.
> 
> Time to move on with life.
> 
> 72 million kids. 350 deaths. And these idiots think they need a vax and to mask up at school.


It's adults responsibility to get the vaccine or assume the risk.  It's not the children's burden to wear masks.  It's amazing how backwards we've approached the pandemic in many ways.

Prior to the pandemic, if a parent made a child with no justifiable health issue wear a mask in school and public they'd likely be getting visited by CPS.  Likely by a teacher or a medical professional who recognized it as abusive.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> It's adults responsibility to get the vaccine or assume the risk.  It's not the children's burden to wear masks.  It's amazing how backwards we've approached the pandemic in many ways.
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, if a parent made a child with no justifiable health issue wear a mask in school and public they'd likely be getting visited by CPS.  Likely by a teacher or a medical professional who recognized it as abusive.


Mask and 6 feet distance is also a ritual for sickos wat fly and they use kids for all sorts of evil.  Look at their logo and take a look at the lap top from hell dude.  It's all coming out.  Do you think this ship hit a piece of ice and sunk?  Do you know the three businessman that were on that ship and which one's were not?  These assholes have been playing war games called, "Us vs Them."  It's classic psychological warfare and it's been going on for a long time.  Big time killers.  I'm sick of war and wish I never liked it.  I was born in 1966 during war and GI Joe.  My son was born during 911.  War and more war!!!  Stop the wars!!!!


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's adults responsibility to get the vaccine or assume the risk.  It's not the children's burden to wear masks.  It's amazing how backwards we've approached the pandemic in many ways.
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, if a parent made a child with no justifiable health issue wear a mask in school and public they'd likely be getting visited by CPS.  Likely by a teacher or a medical professional who recognized it as abusive.


How, exactly, do I “assume” a risk that I pass on to you?

It’s the adult’s responsibility to get the vaccine.  Unless you are a hermit, “assume the risk” is not an option, because that risk is applying to someone else.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> How, exactly, do I “assume” a risk that I pass on to you?
> 
> It’s the adult’s responsibility to get the vaccine.  Unless you are a hermit, “assume the risk” is not an option, because that risk is applying to someone else.


Deceived!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Desert Hound

So the idiots that want vaccinated people to wear masks apparently have trouble with data.


"A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) document obtained by ABC News shows that “breakthrough” COVID-19 infections — among those who are already vaccinated — are extremely rare, despite headlines and scare stories in the media.

*More than 156 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. The CDC estimates that there have been approximately 153,000 infections among vaccinated individuals — about 0.098 percent*. This number comes from an unpublished internal CDC document obtained by ABC News."

Read that. Look at the numbers. Now tell me why if you are vaccinated you should be running around with a face diaper on?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> It’s the adult’s responsibility to get the vaccine. Unless you are a hermit, “assume the risk” is not an option, because that risk is applying to someone else.


You have it exactly backwards. 

You were worried and took the vaccine. Good for you. 

You do not need to follow restrictions, create restrictions, wear a mask to try to "protect" someone who decided he/she didn't want or need the vaccine. 

You are protected. You need not concern yourself with others who opted not to get vaccinated. 

Time to move on. Time for gov to get the hell out of attempting to micromanage our freedoms.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> So the idiots that want vaccinated people to wear masks apparently have trouble with data.
> 
> 
> "A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) document obtained by ABC News shows that “breakthrough” COVID-19 infections — among those who are already vaccinated — are extremely rare, despite headlines and scare stories in the media.
> 
> *More than 156 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. The CDC estimates that there have been approximately 153,000 infections among vaccinated individuals — about 0.098 percent*. This number comes from an unpublished internal CDC document obtained by ABC News."
> 
> Read that. Look at the numbers. Now tell me why if you are vaccinated you should be running around with a face diaper on?




This is where Husker and Espola get their news.  It's clear as day this was never about this and that but really about cheating and evil deeds.  This will all come out soon and very soon.  Merit based life is coming but we need to get rid of the all the cheaters.  Look, if you cheated, cough it up and stop cheating.  Pay to play is over!!!!

CNN’s Don Lemon ridiculed Americans who choose not to get vaccinated against COVID-19 on his program Monday evening, saying they should *not be permitted to participate in society* due to their “freedom” logic.

“I’m sure a lot of people are not going to agree with this ((Ya, you're right Don)), but *don’t get the vaccine, you can’t go to the supermarket,” *Lemon said. *“Don’t have the vaccine, can’t go to the ball game. Don’t have a vaccine, can’t go to work. You don’t have a vaccine, can’t come here. No shirt, no shoes, no service.”*


----------



## Ellejustus

Hey asshole, yes you, stop with the threats.  My gosh, I'm just sharing words.  You know your over the target when the threats come.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> How, exactly, do I “assume” a risk that I pass on to you?
> 
> It’s the adult’s responsibility to get the vaccine.  Unless you are a hermit, “assume the risk” is not an option, because that risk is applying to someone else.


And that someone else should either get the vax or assume the risk themselves.  It’s called personal accountability.  Something certain sides are pushing on other people (you be accountable for my health risk).


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Just have high risk businesses require vaccine cards.  No card?  No indoor table.
> 
> Your restaurant insists on operating in a manner which spreads disease?  No public health license for you.


How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


Yes.  And for plane flights or any long distance travel in a shared airspace.

I already have to show my driver’s license at the airport and my passport at customs.  It’s not a big deal to ask me for a vaccine card at the same time.


----------



## tjinaz

Kicker4Life said:


> How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


If they aren't crossing legally you think they are going to show proof?  Seems like a giant hole in the process to me.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/07/28/la-joya-covid-migrants-whataburger/


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


As of now, all Mexican Nationals that I know have not been able to cross the border for over one year.  I just heard from parents yesterday at practice that kids will not be returning to school in the fall because of vaccine shortages.  Lots of people in TJ are vaccinated, but not so many in rural areas and places far from the US border.

Most of the people crossing the border now are vaccinated Mexican-Americans for work.  I crossed last Saturday in a standard lane in about 30 minutes-it would normally take 3 hours.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> As of now, all Mexican Nationals that I know have not been able to cross the border for over one year.  I just heard from parents yesterday at practice that kids will not be returning to school in the fall because of vaccine shortages.  Lots of people in TJ are vaccinated, but not so many in rural areas and places far from the US border.
> 
> Most of the people crossing the border now are vaccinated Mexican-Americans for work.  I crossed last Saturday in a standard lane in about 30 minutes-it would normally take 3 hours.


There are still travel bans in place including IIRC against the UK where their citizens can't get in to the US.  I could be entirely wrong about this but I don't think Mexico is on the ban (some quick research didn't show it on the list, but I don't really care enough to do a deep dive)....I think they are prohibited by the loose shut downs of the northern and southern borders  Though, stupidly, if you cross illegally, the same prohibition doesn't seem to apply, even if you test COVID positive (I'm not into the weeds on the details here, but I recall there being a few news stories in Texas about COVID positive people being released by the migra in the last couple of weeks).  More stupidly, US citizens can go to some of the banned countries and then return (my son's favorite bloggers Tara and Neil are on some holiday in Italy, for example).


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> As of now, all Mexican Nationals that I know have not been able to cross the border for over one year.  I just heard from parents yesterday at practice that kids will not be returning to school in the fall because of vaccine shortages.  Lots of people in TJ are vaccinated, but not so many in rural areas and places far from the US border.
> 
> Most of the people crossing the border now are vaccinated Mexican-Americans for work.  I crossed last Saturday in a standard lane in about 30 minutes-it would normally take 3 hours.


Not sure why the US isn’t helping Mexico in this regard, but stories like the following are cropping up more and more:









						La Joya police say hotel is housing migrants with COVID-19, released by Border Patrol
					

LA JOYA, Texas (KVEO) — On Tuesday, the La Joya Police Department addressed a migrant family they spoke with at a Whataburger in La Joya that told police they were COVID-19 positive. “They to…




					www.valleycentral.com


----------



## timbuck

Kicker4Life said:


> How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


I bet if "we" announced that "anyone crossing the border from mexico will be given a free covid vaccine"  -  that plenty of American's that aren't currently vaccinated would protest.  they'd probably get the vaccine just to keep it from "those mexicans."


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> Not sure why the US isn’t helping Mexico in this regard, but stories like the following are cropping up more and more:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La Joya police say hotel is housing migrants with COVID-19, released by Border Patrol
> 
> 
> LA JOYA, Texas (KVEO) — On Tuesday, the La Joya Police Department addressed a migrant family they spoke with at a Whataburger in La Joya that told police they were COVID-19 positive. “They to…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.valleycentral.com


This seems like propaganda to me. There has been lots of reform at the border over the past year.  I have personally been in contact with the San Diego port director and Sally Carrillo.  Texas has made similar changes.

I think they’ve placed barriers and lookouts further into Mexico so “runners” are apprehended on Mexican soil.  Refugee camps in TJ are full.  Now, there’s more than enough space in Federal facilities for those caught crossings illegally with coyotes.

Maybe, the agency is looking for more funding.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> This seems like propaganda to me. There has been lots of reform at the border over the past year.  I have personally been in contact with the San Diego port director and Sally Carrillo.  Texas has made similar changes.
> 
> I think they’ve placed barriers and lookouts further into Mexico so “runners” are apprehended on Mexican soil.  Refugee camps in TJ are full.  Now, there’s more than enough space in Federal facilities for those caught crossings illegally with coyotes.
> 
> Maybe, the agency is looking for more funding.


There is an awful being reported on this situation….but as we know media = propaganda


----------



## what-happened

Kicker4Life said:


> How about crossing the border into the US?  Shouldn’t we be asking for ANYONE coming into the US to show proof of Vaccination?


Tough to do when they are crossing at their own time and pace..


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> This seems like propaganda to me. There has been lots of reform at the border over the past year.  I have personally been in contact with the San Diego port director and Sally Carrillo.  Texas has made similar changes.
> 
> I think they’ve placed barriers and lookouts further into Mexico so “runners” are apprehended on Mexican soil.  Refugee camps in TJ are full.  Now, there’s more than enough space in Federal facilities for those caught crossings illegally with coyotes.
> 
> Maybe, the agency is looking for more funding.


Why do you think this is propaganda (honest question).  Current status of our border is pretty leaky, with Texas in particular having gaping holes.  Federal assets barely have the resources to track/transport folks coming across the border.

If in fact we are scared back into masks and our homes, why wouldn't it be a priority to prevent infection from those coming across illegally.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> Why do you think this is propaganda (honest question).  Current status of our border is pretty leaky, with Texas in particular having gaping holes.  Federal assets barely have the resources to track/transport folks coming across the border.
> 
> If in fact we are scared back into masks and our homes, why wouldn't it be a priority to prevent infection from those coming across illegally.


I don’t think many Mexicans want to live in the US because many have a better quality of life. It’s been my observation that in the US we live to work but in Mexico folks work to live and family is more important.  When I go to Mexican birthday parties, the fellas love to make jokes about how everything is precisely timed at an American party and our kids are shooting up schools and public places because of the pressure.  I think Mexican illegal immigration into the US is fairly low too.

Mexico is also very strict on their southern borders towards Central and South Americans so there aren’t huge caravans of migrants roaming through Mexico trying to get to the US border as is often reported.

Organized crime and the few that can afford coyotes are a different story.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> I don’t think many Mexicans want to live in the US because many have a better quality of life. It’s been my observation that in the US we live to work but in Mexico folks work to live and family is more important.  When I go to Mexican birthday parties, the fellas love to make jokes about how everything is precisely timed at an American party and our kids are shooting up schools and public places because of the pressure.  I think Mexican illegal immigration into the US is fairly low too.
> 
> Mexico is also very strict on their southern borders towards Central and South Americans so there aren’t huge caravans of migrants roaming through Mexico trying to get to the US border as is often reported.
> 
> Organized crime and the few that can afford coyotes are a different story.


Really?  I guess  we know two different mexicos...maybe 3.  The number and reports from TX are lies?  Interesting.  I mean, it is the federal government, lying is not out of the question.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> Really?  I guess  we know two different mexicos...maybe 3.  The number and reports from TX are lies?  Interesting.  I mean, it is the federal government, lying is not out of the question.


Not saying anyone is lying.  I’m sure there’s been a case or two of migrants having Covid but I don’t think it’s widespread.

I felt like article was anti immigration fear mongering because the author doesn’t like our immigration laws and the current policy of releasing migrants into Texas.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Not saying anyone is lying.  I’m sure there’s been a case or two of migrants having Covid but I don’t think it’s widespread.
> 
> I felt like article was anti immigration fear mongering because the author doesn’t like our immigration laws and the current policy of releasing migrants into Texas.


You don't think there could be an agency that got overwhelmed and was looking for a way to unload the problem before reporters showed up at overcrowded holding centers?

Immigrants, like any other travellers, probably have covid at somewhat above the level of the general population in the source and transit countries.

Same phenomenon as wealthy New Yorkers bringing covid to Aspen last March.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> Not saying anyone is lying.  I’m sure there’s been a case or two of migrants having Covid but I don’t think it’s widespread.
> 
> *I felt like article was anti immigration fear mongering because the author doesn’t like our immigration laws and the current policy of releasing migrants into Texas*.


Don't doubt that - hard to find a journalist today that reports just facts. Truth is somewhere in the middle.  We'll never know.  Illegals coming across the border aren't going to be tested nor will they be given a vaccine or asked for proof -(which would be a waste of time).  Yet we will require proof of vaccine for legal entry into our country.  Logic doesn't jive, but that's the world we live in given the temperature of the country,


----------



## Ellejustus

*McConnell says 'it never occurred' to him that convincing Americans to get vaccinated would be difficult..............*

This is going to get very interesting.  I'm starting to hear the word "force" people to get the jab or else.  Their past trying to be cute and nice.  No shopping for food, no entertainment, no school, no job and no service.  I guess the world has become one big NO!  I won;t listen to the politicians who lie for a living.  This is experimental at best, not approved and a lot worse if what I know is really going on is true.  I hope my pals who got the jab and have been cool with me won;t start turning on me or worse, try and "butter" me up for the jab.  The smooth talk of a salesman won;t work with me this time.  I need FACTs!!!  I see them on videos from real Docs and it's gnarly you guys.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> *McConnell says 'it never occurred' to him that convincing Americans to get vaccinated would be difficult..............*
> 
> This is going to get very interesting.  I'm starting to hear the word "force" people to get the jab or else.  Their past trying to be cute and nice.  No shopping for food, no entertainment, no school, no job and no service.  I guess the world has become one big NO!  I won;t listen to the politicians who lie for a living.  This is experimental at best, not approved and a lot worse if what I know is really going on is true.  I hope my pals who got the jab and have been cool with me won;t start turning on me or worse, try and "butter" me up for the jab.  The smooth talk of a salesman won;t work with me this time.  I need FACTs!!!  I see them on videos from real Docs and it's gnarly you guys.


For facts, Mayo clinic has a decent page.  






						COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance from Mayo Clinic - Mayo Clinic
					






					www.mayoclinic.org
				




Not really experimental at this point.  About 2 billion people have been vaccinated so far.  If there were a risk, they would have seen it by now.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> For facts, Mayo clinic has a decent page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance from Mayo Clinic - Mayo Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mayoclinic.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really experimental at this point.  About 2 billion people have been vaccinated so far.  If there were a risk, they would have seen it by now.


Of course it's still experimental and there are documented risks.  To many,  many, people, to call it a vaccine is silly to begin with.

This is another impediment to vaccine buy in - the dishonest approach to "selling" the vaccine is noticed by many.  The FDA is doing a decent job of deflecting political pressure to approve the vaccine without undergoing due process.  By definition, these vaccines don't even meet the definition of a vaccine posted on the CDC website.

Now, do they work in minimizing hospitalization and severity of symptoms...of course they do, we can see it.  Does it provide immunity? No Does it prevent transmission? No.  Do we understand the long term effects? NOPE.  We don't fully understand how these vaccines effect our immune system long term.  This is scary for parents of young children and people in their mid 20s and 30s.  No animal testing was done - we are the guinea pigs about to participate in a 2 year study.

This  vaxx issue is very complicated.  To simplify it and make it part of the culture war will only backfire.  We are not going to vaxx everyone.  To vaxx young children is irresponsible.  In the end money may win out.  

To be clear, I'm vaxxed.   My profession strongly encourages it and I'm on the downhill side of the mountain.  I'm not as concerned about long term effects.  Will I encourage my DDs to vaxx...not even close.  Healthy young men and women have a long life ahead of them.  I don't have an issue with masks, wear them..not a big deal.  I've been wearing a mask for one reason or another for a long time.   Uncomfortable at times..yes.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Of course it's still experimental and there are documented risks.  To many,  many, people, to call it a vaccine is silly to begin with.
> 
> This is another impediment to vaccine buy in - the dishonest approach to "selling" the vaccine is noticed by many.  The FDA is doing a decent job of deflecting political pressure to approve the vaccine without undergoing due process.  By definition, these vaccines don't even meet the definition of a vaccine posted on the CDC website.
> 
> Now, do they work in minimizing hospitalization and severity of symptoms...of course they do, we can see it.  Does it provide immunity? No Does it prevent transmission? No.  Do we understand the long term effects? NOPE.  We don't fully understand how these vaccines effect our immune system long term.  This is scary for parents of young children and people in their mid 20s and 30s.  No animal testing was done - we are the guinea pigs about to participate in a 2 year study.
> 
> This  vaxx issue is very complicated.  To simplify it and make it part of the culture war will only backfire.  We are not going to vaxx everyone.  To vaxx young children is irresponsible.  In the end money may win out.
> 
> To be clear, I'm vaxxed.   My profession strongly encourages it and I'm on the downhill side of the mountain.  I'm not as concerned about long term effects.  Will I encourage my DDs to vaxx...not even close.  Healthy young men and women have a long life ahead of them.  I don't have an issue with masks, wear them..not a big deal.  I've been wearing a mask for one reason or another for a long time.   Uncomfortable at times..yes.


Why is it silly to call it a vaccine?


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Will I encourage my DDs to vaxx...not even close.


100% agree here. 

My kids have zero risk. They are not getting the jab.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> 100% agree here.
> 
> My kids have zero risk. They are not getting the jab.


I might if there were some notable benefit to them in it...such as not having to test and not having to mask.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> 100% agree here.
> 
> My kids have zero risk. They are not getting the jab.


More voluntarily-exposed idiots.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> such as not having to test and not having to mask.


That is the crap we have to fight to prevent. 

That is gov coercion. 

No thanks.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Sample size is pretty darn small.  Only 5% of participants were previously infected.
> 
> They were trying to draw conclusions from a sample size of 1220 previously infected but recently vaccinated patients.  It is no surprise that they couldn’t get a significant result.  The study was completely underpowered.
> 
> This is why their confidence interval was “0 to infinity” for the previously infected group.  The data didn’t say anything this time.
> 
> You’d need a considerably larger study to say anything other than “we don’t know.”.  Preferably in India, where you can find out about the value of the vaccine against a new variant.
> 
> I really wish they would stop printed underpowered studies as proof of a negative.  There is a statistical standard for demonstrating the lack of a correlation.   This study does not meet it.


Speaking of underpowered, why are you avoiding looking at the data from the last 20 to 50 years of upper respiratory diseases instead of just the last year and a half?  Not to mention the use of the PCR test that only finds dead pieces of nucleotides that become "cases" while IFR, updated in March of 2021, worse case is .00008 for the school children that L.A. wants to mask?  Leveraging fear with an IFR of .00008 is just plain old stupid and an indictment of our publication education system.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> I might if there were some notable benefit to them in it...such as not having to test and not having to mask.


We know zero in regards to long term effects.  All anyone can say is that right now, things look OK.  Some Anaphylaxis here, some neuro problems t there, no biggee...Besides, most of this stuff is self reported..likely running around 10%.  Many adverse effects go unreported.  VAERS is a public venue, anyone can access it.

Many is the medical community are held hostage by big pharma.  Do some digging around, you'll see that many Drs across multiple disciplines had their education funded by big pharma or their schools influenced by them.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I might if there were some notable benefit to them in it...such as not having to test and not having to mask.



Reducing the likelihood of illness, long-term health damage, or death is not enough for you?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Why is it silly to call it a vaccine?


Put on your typing finger gloves and find out.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> More voluntarily-exposed idiots.


72 million people 17 and under. 350 deaths. 

There is no reason this group of people should get vaxxed. As a matter of fact they have no worries whatsoever related to covid. 

It is only idiots and trolls like you that think...yeah lets make this group be vaxxed and masked.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> That is the crap we have to fight to prevent.
> 
> That is gov coercion.
> 
> No thanks.


Do you fight against the government coercion that makes you sit in stalled traffic on the right-side lanes of the freeway even when the left-side lanes are wide open?


----------



## Desert Hound

They can go F themselves.

"European-style vaccine "passes" may be an option for the U.S. in the future, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday.
Walensky spoke with CNN's John Berman one day after the CDC updated mask guidelines for vaccinated individuals. The CDC, after seeing a surge in cases involving the delta variant, now recommends fully vaccinated Americans mask up indoors in high transmission areas of the country.

When probed about next steps, Berman wondered if the CDC would ever "lean into" vaccine passes....

"You know, I think some communities are doing that and that may very well be a path forward," Walensky declared. "I do want to sort of comment that in some fully vaccinated venues, if they're unmasked and there are a few people who are transmitting there... Overall it's so very critical to just get the huge amount of disease in some of these areas down."


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Put on your typing finger gloves and find out.


I thought I was asking the person who put forward that novel idea.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Reducing the likelihood of illness, long-term health damage, or death is not enough for you?


To who?  you? Sure, vaxx up, the number of laps you have left around the sun are much less than many.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I thought I was asking the person who put forward that novel idea.


You have the basic capacity to pick it up where I left off.  I'm gonna go put on my mask and hang out for a while.  I look forward to what you find.  Reach out to some of your contacts at the CDC and have them explain to you what a vaccine is.  And then ask them what gene therapy is.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> That is the crap we have to fight to prevent.
> 
> That is gov coercion.
> 
> No thanks.


But they can't even seem to do gov coercion effectively though....in the end they'll just try to use a blunt instrument (like Macron did in france) and it will be ugly.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> You have the basic capacity to pick it up where I left off.  I'm gonna go put on my mask and hang out for a while.  I look forward to what you find.  Reach out to some of your contacts at the CDC and have them explain to you what a vaccine is.  And then ask them what gene therapy is.


It looks like you are attempting to make your mistake go away by deflecting from a direct answer.  If you like, you can just post a link to the nugget that made you think you were correct.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> To who?  you? Sure, vaxx up, the number of laps you have left around the sun are much less than many.


Clueless.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Reducing the likelihood of illness, long-term health damage, or death is not enough for you?


Taking each in turn:

-likelihood of illness: in kids???  they are sick all the time.  In others?  they have the chance already to be protected from severe illness and illness is part of the human condition
-long term health damage:  in them? long COVID is rare in kids and in any case one of them has had it.  Since they are both boys, there is a small if real risk of myocarditis so for them the risk/benefit ratio is pretty much a wash.  In others? they've had the chance already to be protected through vaccination.
-death: in them?  Fewer than 1000 kids have died of COVID and almost all of them had significant health problems.  In others, deaths among the vaccinated are on the floor.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Taking each in turn:
> 
> -likelihood of illness: in kids???  they are sick all the time.  In others?  they have the chance already to be protected from severe illness and illness is part of the human condition
> -long term health damage:  in them? long COVID is rare in kids and in any case one of them has had it.  Since they are both boys, there is a small if real risk of myocarditis so for them the risk/benefit ratio is pretty much a wash.  In others? they've had the chance already to be protected through vaccination.
> -death: in them?  Fewer than 1000 kids have died of COVID and almost all of them had significant health problems.  In others, deaths among the vaccinated are on the floor.


My kids were "sick all the time" as well (I used to dread the "back-to-school flu" we all got every year in September), but they got fewer serious diseases than I did as a kid because vaccines against those diseases had been developed over that time.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> For facts, Mayo clinic has a decent page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine: Guidance from Mayo Clinic - Mayo Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mayoclinic.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really experimental at this point.  About 2 billion people have been vaccinated so far.  If there were a risk, they would have seen it by now.


Father of lies!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> My kids were "sick all the time" as well (I used to dread the "back-to-school flu" we all got every year in September), but they got fewer serious diseases than I did as a kid because vaccines against those diseases had been developed over that time.


Uncle of Lies!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Why is it silly to call it a vaccine?


Uncle Cheater & a deceiver.  Nailed you Espola.  it's not too late to come clean EOTL.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Father of lies!!!


Father of lies?  

Lover of fries, actually.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> More voluntarily-exposed idiots.


Your involuntary exposure cracks me up.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> My kids were "sick all the time" as well (I used to dread the "back-to-school flu" we all got every year in September), but they got fewer serious diseases than I did as a kid because vaccines against those diseases had been developed over that time.


Well, for them, this isn't a serious disease.  For them, the flu is a more serious disease and when available my kids will be getting their flu shots.

p.s. why would you dread the back to school flu?  Getting sick is part of the human condition.  I'm getting over a small cold right now.  You some sort of hypochondriac like Trump?  You afraid to shake people's hands?

My father was an allergist/internal medicine.  Every winter right before Christmas he'd bring home the flu from people who came to him "with winter allergies" and every Christmas I'd be down with the flu.  So what?  It's part of being human.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> More voluntarily-exposed idiots.


Uncle liar


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> My kids were "sick all the time" as well (I used to dread the "back-to-school flu" we all got every year in September), but they got fewer serious diseases than I did as a kid because vaccines against those diseases had been developed over that time.


Nonsense.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Do you fight against the government coercion that makes you sit in stalled traffic on the right-side lanes of the freeway even when the left-side lanes are wide open?


Uncle liar, cheater and _____________________________________.  Stay tune to find out who the real Espola.  Just wait you guys,  This guy has been _________________________ and so many too.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Clueless.


Cheater and liar


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Father of lies?
> 
> Lover of fries, actually.


This is past funny liar.  Look at you.  Look in the mirror.  This attitude of lies because you cheat and rob others of life with all your lies is coming to an end soon.  No one with a heart would make fun of this.  You have no heart and only use 4% of your brain.  It's not too late


----------



## Ellejustus

Morning Joe!!!







Enjoy the show everyone.  If you like to live with liars & cheaters, you will get your wish.  In fact, all liars, murderess, cheaters, rapist, racists, evil monsters that _________________________________kid's, will all be together soon.


----------



## Ellejustus

I guess our country will have a choice to make.  Round up Hound and force the shot on him and his family or let him be and not live in fear.  Joe & and his girl have that look on their face that is not good.  Horrible & scary.  They both sound like Husker, Dad, Espola and his evil twin EOTL.  These people are sick.  Let's see who puts up with this life style of mask and control with fear.  I have a liberal friend who is very fair minded and even he just told me this is 100% wrong and he will not wear a mask   He wont take the 2nd shot or the boosters either, yay!!!!  For those with a good heart and you realize how you got played, their is 100% a reverse of what was put in your body.  Trust me  If you want the shots and they make you feel safe, you can get as many boosters as you would like.  Dr. F was all overe the place in this last episode.  Flip & flop and dance around like no other 80+ Dr I have seen.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Well, for them, this isn't a serious disease.  For them, the flu is a more serious disease and when available my kids will be getting their flu shots.
> 
> p.s. why would you dread the back to school flu?  Getting sick is part of the human condition.  I'm getting over a small cold right now.  You some sort of hypochondriac like Trump?  You afraid to shake people's hands?
> 
> My father was an allergist/internal medicine.  Every winter right before Christmas he'd bring home the flu from people who came to him "with winter allergies" and every Christmas I'd be down with the flu.  So what?  It's part of being human.


I can't add anything to that.


----------



## Ellejustus

*3:50 mark is truth speak.  Hard to lie in depositions.  Discovery is a bitch!!!*


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Reducing the likelihood of illness, long-term health damage, or death is not enough for you?


You're so FOS sometimes.  You are describing the Obese 38% of the American population pre-vax in 4/2020.  During 4/2020 the Bestimate for Ro 2.5 IFR was .0005 for ages 0-49, symptomatic.  Then in July of 2020 the Bestimate Ro 2.5 IFR was .0065 all age groups.  No group breakdown.  Lol!!  Then comes September 2020 and Bestimate for Ro 2.5 is .00003 for ages 0-19 and Ro4 is .00001 for ages 0-19.  These numbers are all pre-vax and on the CDC website.  So why is L.A. masking this age group again?


----------



## Ellejustus

Espola and his crew love this kind of truth....lol!!!

*Biden defends previously saying vaccinated don't need masks: 'That was true at the time'*


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 11183


Damn, that's the most insightful quote I have heard in a long time.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Damn, that's the most insightful quote I have heard in a long time.


They don;t call him honest Abe for nothing bro.  Of course the famous bloodline had him whacked.  They whacked JFK too.  I had a dream that you lost a  ton of weight and taking your health super serious.  Great job brother.  I told my wife she saved my ass for speaking truth to me four years ago.  I was having a big pity party after my income was ripped out of my hands like a fart in the wind.  I was also on top of the soccer world with my baby goat teenager.  Four years ago she and her teammates won the Natty  Last time an 04's team from socal won something.....lol!!! Then the Doc exposed his evil deeds.  Been a battle ever sense. I just wanted merit based fairness in ALL aspects of life. Anyway, church got toxic too so I got all that out of my system so I could help us all with the truth today. This evil goes so deep most have no clue and worse, they dont want to peak down the rabbit hole. It's like their scared to look under the bed. Love you bro


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

*Hey Messy and EOTL, I mean Husker & Espola, listen to The General and obey.  Thanks for staying away from me and keep the mask on!!!*




U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy is recommending that *fully vaccinated *individuals *wear face masks outdoors* to *protect the unvaccinated*. Murthy made the suggestion during an appearance on MSNBC, where he said fully vaccinated individuals wearing masks indoors and outdoors was an "extra step" of *protection to unvaccinated people.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Meanwhile, the lunatics are panicked because of this chart -- yes, this chart:*


*Did you realize that was the extent of what we're facing? That little bit of nothingness at the end of the chart there?*


----------



## Ellejustus

*Jean-Pierre declined to say whether President Biden has asked the Department of Justice if a federal vaccine mandate was possible, telling reporters Friday, “I don't have any more to add to that,” but pointed to the President’s remarks Thursday during remarks from the East Room.*


> *“I had asked the Justice Department to determine whether that is, they're able to [pass vaccine mandates] legally,” Biden said Thursday, “and they can, local communities can do that, local businesses can do that. It's still a question whether the federal government can mandate the whole country. I don't know that yet.”*


----------



## NOVA.Dad




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 11195


Science


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11203


.00008.  “Ainʻt exactly zero”. Lol.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Science


This is my kind of food.  My buddy and I have a garden at his place.  It's the Crush AvoCop Sandwich on Toasted Sourdough, bro   I made one for my wife & DD.  Last night my wife made a killer Curry. Tasty and no meat


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> This is my kind of food.  My buddy and I have a garden at his place.  It's the Crush AvoCop Sandwich on Toasted Sourdough, bro   I made one for my wife & DD.  Last night my wife made a killer Curry. Tasty and no meat
> 
> View attachment 11208


That sounds ono.  Ms. IZ makes a meatless curry bean stew and yellow rice.  I stir in a little bitchin' sauce in my bowl with a little naan bread and then it is game on!!  Had avo sandwiches for breakfast several times last week.  Also drink a tumeric, ginger, almond milk drink that eliminates inflamation.  I also make my own CBD oil.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> That sounds ono.  Ms. IZ makes a meatless curry bean stew and yellow rice.  I stir in a little bitchin' sauce in my bowl with a little naan bread and then it is game on!!  Had avo sandwiches for breakfast several times last week.  Also drink a tumeric, ginger, almond milk drink that eliminates inflamation.  I also make my own CBD oil.



My friends mom invented these chips back in the day.  Avo and chips bro.  No cheese/Moo Moos in our house.  Have you seen the pictures of the cows lately?  Yikes!!!  Talk about abuse and needles for the cows.  Cashew cheese is amazing.  It's hard to stop eating meat for many.  It's the only way to start the new life, moo!  But hey, if folks want to eat poison and shoot bat virus mixed with whatever Espola theory of ingredients is, then go right ahead, right Bruddah?  Alarm bells have been rung so many times my ears hurt.  I got a super cool PM from someone who hated me.  He now say's, "ok ok Crush, you were right about much.  I still hate your delivery but it's spot on."  I will never share PMs or private conversations we have at the fields.  Mums the word


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> This is my kind of food.  My buddy and I have a garden at his place.  It's the Crush AvoCop Sandwich on Toasted Sourdough, bro   I made one for my wife & DD.  Last night my wife made a killer Curry. Tasty and no meat
> 
> View attachment 11208


But my avo sand didn't look like yours.  Wow!!  If they could just administer that through a needle.  Bypass the stomach and right in to the battle.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 11211
> My friends mom invented these chips back in the day.  Avo and chips bro.  No cheese/Moo Moos in our house.  Have you seen the pictures of the cows lately?  Yikes!!!  Talk about abuse and needles for the cows.  Cashew cheese is amazing.  It's hard to stop eating meat for many.  It's the only way to start the new life, moo!  But hey, if folks want to eat poison and shoot bat virus mixed with whatever Espola theory of ingredients is, then go right ahead, right Bruddah?  Alarm bells have been rung so many times my ears hurt.  I got a super cool PM from someone who hated me.  He now say's, "ok ok Crush, you were right about much.  I still hate your delivery but it's spot on."  I will never share PMs or private conversations we have at the fields.  Mums the word


I don't get PM's.  I guess you have to be a Platinum member or something.  I am for freedom of choice in regards to vaccines.  We like having a silver bullet.  This is too complex an issue for us to apply the Socialist one size fits all solution of a vaccine to 300+ million folks when we have IFR's with 4 zeroes to the right of the decimal point.  It is tyranny and insanity masquerading as Science.  There is too much scientific data contrary to  ongoing policies to ignore and yet the so called scientist and doctors are marching forward from their respective silo's to carry out their own missions without understanding what is really going.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11203


Great Barrington Declaration

*The Great Barrington Declaration*
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.
SIGN THE DECLARATION
*Co-signers*
*Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
*Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
*Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> I don't get PM's.  I guess you have to be a Platinum member or something.  I am for freedom of choice in regards to vaccines.  We like having a silver bullet.  This is too complex an issue for us to apply the Socialist one size fits all solution of a vaccine to 300+ million folks when we have IFR's with 4 zeroes to the right of the decimal point.  It is tyranny and insanity masquerading as Science.  There is too much scientific data contrary to  ongoing policies to ignore and yet the so called scientist and doctors are marching forward from their respective silo's to carry out their own missions without understanding what is really going.



I think were both on the same page.  I was attacked 5 years ago on FB for being a t supporter and I didn;t even vote.  I was helping a dear old pal with another friend who were arguing about how t upset HRC.  These people lost and their still cheating & crying about it.  It's so obvious.  I think it's because I want kids to be born.  These punks kill kids dude and that is why I am here.  Losers cheat, lie, murder, rape, bribes, blackmail, kickbacks, more cheating, stealing and the like.  Real winners we got in this country.  
My friend just got the notice Brudda.  No Vax, no job.  He has until 9/13.  What is up with that date?  I can;t share where but it's in Socal.  He will NOT get the jab.  I told him to get fired and then I have a real good phone number to give him.  He's worked at the same place for 22 years and wore a dam mask for a long time.  He went to the Doc and they think his mouth infection is from his mask.  It's bad dude.  Half the folks got the jab and he said only from that group has people fallen ill.  I not here to scare anyone.  The facts are the facts.  He and the other men who said no a long time ago ((they will wear a mask, but no jabs)) don't get sick, ever!!!!  It's crazy as all get out but it's true.  Lastly, I hear Shake Shack is saying to get lost if no jab.


----------



## crush

I wonder what these workers know first hand that we don;t?  No jab, no job?  Talk about a pressure to keep a job or lose everything.   


*At some California hospitals, nearly half of workers remain unvaccinated*


​

Despite a frenetic rollout and urgent pleas from officials on nearly-bent knees, some hospital workers remain hesitant. Vaccination rates vary widely at Southern California hospitals.


----------



## crush

*Not all hospital workers are highly educated medical professionals like doctors and nurses, said Richard Carpiano, a public health scientist and medical sociologist at UC Riverside. There’s administrative staff, secretaries, janitorial workers, bookkeepers, cafeteria personnel and other support people who keep the doors open and the lights on. They’re apt to reflect the attitudes — and fears — of the public at large.*


----------



## crush

Hey @ Bruddah, check out Husker & Espola talk about vaccines.  









						‼️CNN:  Don Lemon says: unvaccinated should not be able to go to grocery
					

EVEN ATTACKS BY MEANS OF NEGATIVE REVIEWS CANNOT STOP THE TRUTH TO BE EXPOSED ================================================================================ ENGLISH / DEUTSCHE ERKLÄRUNG: ‼️CNN: ungeimpfte Menschen sollen zu Tode gehungert werd…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Oh Bruddah, check out this guy going around California finding lame sheep who would love to see me and my family arrested for refusing 100% to NEVER take the jabs.  These are the people WHO benefited in the old life and they want so bad to go back to when things were normal for them.  Let me be very Frank with everyone.  The tables have been turned and you got played big time with poison.  Stop arresting the people who think critically with their brain or you won;t have anyone to stand up to liars.  Baaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaa.  WTF up folks!!!  So easy to sign for some of these fellow Americans of mine.  I wont judge because I too was brainwashed at one time in my life.  However, I never wanted someone arrested for not taking experimental shots from Dr. F and his pal Bill who hung around Jeff all the time.  I have no idea what's in the jab, only Espola's theory of ingredients.....









						They Want to Arrest and Jail All Unvaccinated Adults!
					

⚠️  Order your "Arrest Dr. Fauci" shirt here: https://TeeSpring.com/ArrestDrFauci  ➡️  WATCH more "Petitions for Crazy Things" episodes here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa8S4GilqogQILnrvxLgZREFkebrMfJ3f     Tip me through PayPal: http:/…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad




----------



## Desert Hound

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11216


Eh. The people at risk...the 65+ and older have gotten vaxxed at very high rates. 

THAT is why deaths have plummeted. To pretend that the rest are as vulnerable (or anywhere close) is...fear mongering. 

The majority of people have very little risk. Those under 24 virtually NONE.


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11216


I will bet you $1 that it will be the other way around soon.  I won;t be on my yacht though warning you though.  I will be yelling at you from shore as you go into the ocean to warn you of the dangers in the ocean.  Rip tides and the rocks.  No scare of no sharks.  Odds of shark attack is very low.  Fear tatics only work on those with fear.  I have zero fear of virus, just the assholes that cheat, lie and kill for a living.  Stay high on your high horse and high life living Mr. Jones on his yacht.  The table's have already turned sir, just wait for your turn.  You do know WHO is making huge $$$ in this evil market? Blood Clot medicine to help thin your blood is selling like hot cakes and dude is making millions for himself.  I'll look for the article for you because I did find it online.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Eh. The people at risk...the 65+ and older have gotten vaxxed at very high rates.
> 
> THAT is why deaths have plummeted. To pretend that the rest are as vulnerable (or anywhere close) is...fear mongering.
> 
> The majority of people have very little risk. Those under 24 virtually NONE.


Hound, not all 65+ took the jabs.  Many and I mean many, have taken therapeutic medication as an option as well.  These rats are so busted.  The sheep that were following the rats need to get the F off that wheel quickly.  Check this debate I just had with one of the most liberal pals I have.  Back drop is 9/11/2001  I was tricked by the attacks and the hacks.  I was for the Irag war before the truth came out.  The truth today regarding the vax is not truly known.  Nove man, can you share what is in the vaccines and I mean what iall of it is? I have no idea what the real truth is yet, but if one is patinet, the truth will always win.  Only history will shed light on the truth.  Anyway, this guy loves Liz Cheny now and thinks Dick did a great job of being her papa.  He loves the Bushes & McCain and Mit and Mitch.  in 2001, these people were Satan to him.  Now, hero for his causes and his beliefs. Sit back Hound, stay safe and get a lot of pop corn bro.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Hound, thoughts on what this Governor is advising private biz today to do to those like me?  For those who still drink, do you feel the same way when you have a drink?


----------



## crush

To Husker & Espola and Evil Goalie









						DO YOU HAVE YOUR COVID VAXX CARD? [2021-07-30] - CRAIG GREGORY (VIDEO)
					

DO YOU HAVE YOUR COVID VAXX CARD? [2021-07-30] - CRAIG GREGORY (VIDEO)  SERGEANT MAJOR'S TRUTHER INFO       [MeWe] https://mewe.com/join/sergeantmajorstrutherinfo       [Spreely] https://www.spreely.com/page/SergeantMajorsTrutherInfo       [Gab…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound

crush said:


> Hound, thoughts on what this Governor is advising private biz today to do to those like me?  For those who still drink, do you feel the same way when you have a drink?


Didn't see what the governor said to be honest. What did he say?


----------



## crush

OC Register is saying things are about to heat up with more politics at the schools.  With schools about to re-open and face-to-face instruction set to resume, school officials throughout Orange County are hearing from parents like Dad4 and Hound, who hold opposing views about a state mandate that requires most students, teachers and staff to wear masks when indoors at a California public school.

Dad4 vs Desert Hound, Round 1

Dad4 side are parents who welcome the safety of masks, especially with COVID-19 spiking again in Southern California and around the country. These parents argue that the driver of the new surge, the Delta variant, is more transmissible than previous versions of the sometimes fatal disease and the masks-for-all rule helps protect kids and figures to slow community spread.

Hound Dog type of parents are frustrated by the mandate, saying they believe masks pose a risk to their child’s mental health and their ability to learn. Many of these parents argue that they, not the government, should decide if their child does or doesn’t wear a mask at school.

*A* *new group called* *“Let Them Breathe”* with parents like Wat Fly & Grace have helped anti-mandate parents express their view to school boards, organizing recent rallies outside Orange Unified and Tustin Unified districts. And at least least three county school districts – Capistrano, Placentia-Yorba Linda and Saddleback Valley – have formally asked state health officials to kill the mandate and make face masks optional on campus.  Go Capo!!!!
But it’s unclear if those requests will gain traction. As case rates jumped in recent weeks, the federal Centers for Disease Control changed its guidance, urging masks indoors for all students and teachers, regardless of their vaccination status. That mirrors California’s mandate.

*But with the state leaving enforcement of the mandate to school districts, one question remains:

What will happen if students show up to school and refuse to wear a mask*?  Well, wtf do you think will happen?  This is all about dividing us all over stupid non scientific BS.  The only science I see here is how to piss everyone off and have them be even more divisive.  This is Sociology 101 folks on how to ruin friendships and community.  Poly Phy-Op?

*Confusion
School district officials say one thing is certain – they don’t have the legal authority to unilaterally opt out of the mask mandate. * I super disagree.  Play the challenge card

*“We must comply with face masks, and local boards cannot adopt less restrictive measures than what is mandated,” said Los Alamitos Unified Superintendent Andrew Pulver.

School district officials, including Pulver, say the California Department of Health confused parents on July 13, when it issued two statements about masks at school. Early in the day, the agency said schools “must exclude” students if they come to class without a mask and refuse to wear one provided by the school. But later in the day, the agency issued a second statement that kept the mandate in place – and gave individual districts leeway on how to enforce it – but removed the words “must exclude” from its guideline.

The result, said Pulver, was confusion.*


“Some parents like dad4 are saying ‘uphold the mask mandate.’ Others like crush are saying ‘don’t enforce it.’”

“I don’t know if we’ll get further guidance,” he added. “But the state confused it, making it sound like districts have options. When in reality we don’t.”

*For now, it looks like kids who show up without masks won’t be allowed to sit in classes with kids who are wearing them.

Fermin Leal, spokesman for Santa Ana Unified, said the district will divert non-masked students to “virtual learning classes, or independent study, or something similar.”  *If you loved the beach like I did back in early 80s, I would be 100% in the virtual learning class at the beach.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Didn't see what the governor said to be honest. What did he say?


I dont remember and the video was taken down.  Duck Duck *Go*ose is the new game to play on the playground.  I am appalled but not surprised by what has taken place the last 18 months.


----------



## crush

FYI to all my Socal friends.  It;s hot hot hot hot and I'm sure most will head to the beach today.  The water is freezing for some reason.  I saw a guy jump in and jump right out.  60-63, yikes!!!


----------



## crush

Let's play, "Guess who said this."

"1st vaccine done, absolutely no side effects.  Looking forward to second one."  

"2nd vaccination done, zero after effect ((as yet)).  Vaccine certificate issued."

"Well, that's my third jab today.  Proud to be a part of this experiment to save lives."

He's now dead from "Natural causes."


----------



## crush

Q&A time regarding when I can get my booster jabs.

Q.  Before I sign up for third jab, Where is the flu?

A.  STFU stupid.  No more flu A or B.  They flew out out of Socal in late 2019.  #19 is gone and now Delta is making it's way to socal.  Get ready!!!

The *delta* variant of the coronavirus is* making its way through Southern California*, and in the process fueling a rise in cases and hospitalizations — and *new questions from residents*, too.  ((What about the flu?))

Throughout the region, public* health departments* are reporting *increased case rates* ((Flu?)), and are facing renewed public health *mandates,* such as* masking up *in public. It’s prompted talk of vaccine requirements at local businesses, and already set them for many public workers, including employees of Los Angeles County.

And, as the months wear on ((18 months now)), and immunity wears off, the *question emerges for the community’s vaccinated*: *How much and when *— ((WHO the heck is asking for more?)) *and when can I get my booster shot?* 

_*Q: It’s been months since I got fully vaccinated. Should I get the booster — and when? *_

*A:* *Not yet*, experts say. But you’ll *likely need one eventually* ((99.999% chance)), because evidence show that immunity wanes with time.

The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was found to be 91.3% effective against COVID-19, measured seven days to six months after the second dose. It’s at that point, experts believe immunity begins to wane.

*Pfizer’s** latest data in July shows that a third dose is also successful against the delta variant*. 

*Moderna, too, has found that a booster dose provided a robust antibody response** against the disease*

Still, *companies and federal agencies are studying* (($$$$$)) the extent to which a full dose will protect you. And that’s why *local public health departments are waiting on those agencies to sign off on boosters.

"We’re going to defer to the Food and Drug Administration and their scientific panels and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and their scientific panels to make decisions on how to most appropriately use the three vaccines that are available,” said Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer, adding that her department intends to align with such guidance when it comes.

The FDA expects *to have a strategy on COVID-19 vaccine boosters by early September, according to reports.* It would lay out when — and which vaccinated individuals should get the follow-up shots, based on vaccine efficacy laboratory data, clinical trial data and cohort data — which can include data from specific pharmaceutical companies.*

_*Q: But my immune system is compromised. Can I get a booster now?  * _

*A:* *That’s why the Biden administration wants a booster strategy on the fast track*. 

*“I also know many of you are wondering if you’ll need a booster shot to add another layer of protection,” Biden said on July 29. *


_*Q: What about those people in San Francisco who are getting another shot?  *((oh really?))_

*A:* According to media reports, people vaccinated with the one-shot Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine will be able to receive a supplemental mRNA vaccine dose in San Francisco, the city’s health department said this week.


_*Q: But other countries are already doing boosters, aren’t they?*_

*A:* Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett announced July 29 that the country would offer a coronavirus booster to people older than 60 who have already been vaccinated. It made the nation the first country to offer a third dose of a Western vaccine to its citizens on a wide scale.

But many researchers have pushed back on that strategy, warning that it will further slow a global recovery because widespread boosters ahead of the rest of the world would take precious doses from parts of the world that have little immunity.

The danger, they warn, is that variants can emerge in those unvaccinated parts of the world, ultimately coming back to hit other countries — a kind of vicious cycle that some experts fear keeps the virus alive.  ((Basically folks, this never ends until we all say it does.  If you want Husker ((Messy)) or Espola ((EOTL in charge, keep taking the shots and booster up every 6-12 months.  This will NOT end.  Your poor arm will be one big magnetic arm)).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 11212
> I think were both on the same page.  I was attacked 5 years ago on FB for being a t supporter and I didn;t even vote.  I was helping a dear old pal with another friend who were arguing about how t upset HRC.  These people lost and their still cheating & crying about it.  It's so obvious.  I think it's because I want kids to be born.  These punks kill kids dude and that is why I am here.  Losers cheat, lie, murder, rape, bribes, blackmail, kickbacks, more cheating, stealing and the like.  Real winners we got in this country.
> My friend just got the notice Brudda.  No Vax, no job.  He has until 9/13.  What is up with that date?  I can;t share where but it's in Socal.  He will NOT get the jab.  I told him to get fired and then I have a real good phone number to give him.  He's worked at the same place for 22 years and wore a dam mask for a long time.  He went to the Doc and they think his mouth infection is from his mask.  It's bad dude.  Half the folks got the jab and he said only from that group has people fallen ill.  I not here to scare anyone.  The facts are the facts.  He and the other men who said no a long time ago ((they will wear a mask, but no jabs)) don't get sick, ever!!!!  It's crazy as all get out but it's true.  Lastly, I hear Shake Shack is saying to get lost if no jab.


He should file a complaint with OSHA for the mouth infection.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> I wonder what these workers know first hand that we don;t?  No jab, no job?  Talk about a pressure to keep a job or lose everything.
> 
> 
> *At some California hospitals, nearly half of workers remain unvaccinated*
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> Despite a frenetic rollout and urgent pleas from officials on nearly-bent knees, some hospital workers remain hesitant. Vaccination rates vary widely at Southern California hospitals.


That is how tyranny works.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> *Not all hospital workers are highly educated medical professionals like doctors and nurses, said Richard Carpiano, a public health scientist and medical sociologist at UC Riverside. There’s administrative staff, secretaries, janitorial workers, bookkeepers, cafeteria personnel and other support people who keep the doors open and the lights on. They’re apt to reflect the attitudes — and fears — of the public at large.*


Even at the professional level, their learning is siloed and each assumes that the other is doing their job.  How many have PCR tested negative but had covid symptoms and treated for covid instead of what they really had or have because doctors couldn't believe the negative PCR results because it just HAD TO BE covid.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Oh Bruddah, check out this guy going around California finding lame sheep who would love to see me and my family arrested for refusing 100% to NEVER take the jabs.  These are the people WHO benefited in the old life and they want so bad to go back to when things were normal for them.  Let me be very Frank with everyone.  The tables have been turned and you got played big time with poison.  Stop arresting the people who think critically with their brain or you won;t have anyone to stand up to liars.  Baaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaa.  WTF up folks!!!  So easy to sign for some of these fellow Americans of mine.  I wont judge because I too was brainwashed at one time in my life.  However, I never wanted someone arrested for not taking experimental shots from Dr. F and his pal Bill who hung around Jeff all the time.  I have no idea what's in the jab, only Espola's theory of ingredients.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They Want to Arrest and Jail All Unvaccinated Adults!
> 
> 
> ⚠️  Order your "Arrest Dr. Fauci" shirt here: https://TeeSpring.com/ArrestDrFauci  ➡️  WATCH more "Petitions for Crazy Things" episodes here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa8S4GilqogQILnrvxLgZREFkebrMfJ3f     Tip me through PayPal: http:/…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


About 1:30 the white lady with the purple shirt goes "I really don't want to be around anybody right now" while she and her husband sign on approving arresting their fellow beach goers.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Let's play, "Guess who said this."
> 
> "1st vaccine done, absolutely no side effects.  Looking forward to second one."
> 
> "2nd vaccination done, zero after effect ((as yet)).  Vaccine certificate issued."
> 
> "Well, that's my third jab today.  Proud to be a part of this experiment to save lives."
> 
> He's now dead from "Natural causes."


Biden?


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Biden?


Nope


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11216


Too bad he's not wearing a mask.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Vocal anti-vaccine broadcaster dies from COVID-19 complications
					

Former South Florida talk show host Dick Farrel, known and beloved by fans for his over-the-top right-wing opinions, has died from complications from COVID-19.




					www.wptv.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/05/texas-gop-leader-antimask-antivax-dies-covid/


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Anti-vaxxer dies of Covid nine days after saying virus is ‘nothing to be afraid of’
					

Leslie Lawrenson’s partner says he ‘paid ultimate price’ for making a ‘terrible mistake’ over jab




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## NOVA.Dad

LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus
					

Stephen Harmon, who opposed getting vaccinated, has died after a month-long struggle with the virus.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Radio host and anti-vaxxer, Dick Farrel, dies of Covid; Urges friends to get vaccinated before death
					

A right wing radio host who declared all Covid vaccines to be “bogus bull shid” and yelled at Fauci for being a “lazy freak” has passed away after losing a battle against coronavirus.  Dick Farrel was a 65-year-old former Newsmax host and well-known radio personality. Farrel was highly critical...




					www.wionews.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Texas politician dies of COVID 5 days after posting anti-vaccine meme
					

A Texas GOP official who consistently mocked COVID-19 vaccines and masks on social media, died five days after posting a meme on Facebook, questioning the idea of getting inoculated against the virus.




					www.nydailynews.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Anti-vaxxer dies of Covid after mocking ‘experimental vaccine’
					

An anti-vaxxer nightclub manager has died of Covid-19 after mocking people for getting the “experimental” vaccine.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Healthy nightclub manager who rejected the vaccine because it was too 'experimental' died from COVID-19 weeks later
					

David Parker, from County Durham in England, was urged by his family to get his vaccine, but he dismissed it as experimental and a money-making scam.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## espola

Morbid


----------



## NOVA.Dad

espola said:


> Morbid


 Sad and unnecessary.


----------



## LASTMAN14

NOVA.Dad said:


> Sad and unnecessary.


Why is this not on the bad news thread.


----------



## dad4

Many won't like the posthumous mockery, but it is mostly fair.

The anti-vax crusaders were quite content to put other people at risk by undermining public health measures.  It's no shock that some of that damage fell on the people who caused it.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Many won't like the posthumous mockery, but it is mostly fair.
> 
> The anti-vax crusaders were quite content to put other people at risk by undermining public health measures.  It's no shock that some of that damage fell on the people who caused it.


Statistically inevitable.


----------



## espola

Federal Judge rules in favor of Norwegian Cruise Lines with respect to Florida vaccine passport ban --



			https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.596136/gov.uscourts.flsd.596136.43.0.pdf


----------



## tjinaz

espola said:


> Statistically inevitable.


As well as the 98.7% chance of not dying and not being vaccinated.  Lets not lose the forest through the trees.  I, personally am vaccinated, but this virus still has a very small mortality percentage.


----------



## Desert Hound

tjinaz said:


> As well as the 98.7% chance of not dying and not being vaccinated.  Lets not lose the forest through the trees.


It is actually a far better rate than that. 

The at risk group is currently vaxxed at a very high rate. That was the group the consisted of over 80% of all deaths. 

The other very at risk people with health issues have been vaxxed at a very high rate. 

The rest of us? Vaxxed or not have really no risk of covid. Why we pretend otherwise is beyond me.


----------



## dad4

tjinaz said:


> As well as the 98.7% chance of not dying and not being vaccinated.  Lets not lose the forest through the trees.  I, personally am vaccinated, but this virus still has a very small mortality percentage.


98.7% sounds impressive, but how often do you voluntarily take a 1.3% chance of dying?  Or a 10% chance of hospitalization?  

I agree we should keep it in perspective.  These risks are higher than I usually take.  If you like to street race motorcycles, then the risk probably sounds more reasonable to you.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 98.7% sounds impressive, but how often do you voluntarily take a 1.3% chance of dying?  Or a 10% chance of hospitalization?
> 
> I agree we should keep it in perspective.  These risks are higher than I usually take.  If you like to street race motorcycles, then the risk probably sounds more reasonable to you.


Actually it’s about the same risk as riding a motorcycle regularly for transport or recreation (not street racing): if you crash there’s about a .5% chance if you dying….a 3-4% chance of you having a serious injury requiring medical intervention…a little more than a 10% chance of being hospitalized. The ifr for covid no vaxxed now stands at about .2-.4% and the cfr at just under 1%. For vaxxed even lower.  And if you ride a motorcycle regularly for transport or recreation you will eventually crash.  If the vaccine does not stop transmission everyone will get it.  The vaccine is riding the motorcycle with a helmet, boots and leather jacket (the masks are riding the motorcycle with the fancy leather vest with a skull on it) If you are older it might also be time to rethink riding that motorcycle. The motorcycle is a good analogy…it’s actually slightly more risky but we allow people to do it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Actually it’s about the same risk as riding a motorcycle regularly for transport or recreation (not street racing): if you crash there’s about a .5% chance if you dying….a 3-4% chance of you having a serious injury requiring medical intervention…a little more than a 10% chance of being hospitalized. The ifr for covid no vaxxed now stands at about .2-.4% and the cfr at just under 1%. For vaxxed even lower.  And if you ride a motorcycle regularly for transport or recreation you will eventually crash.  If the vaccine does not stop transmission everyone will get it.  The vaccine is riding the motorcycle with a helmet, boots and leather jacket (the masks are riding the motorcycle with the fancy leather vest with a skull on it) If you are older it might also be time to rethink riding that motorcycle. The motorcycle is a good analogy…it’s actually slightly more risky but we allow people to do it.


Usually, when someone suffers a motorcycle wreck, it does not raise the probability of other members of the victim's neighborhood having a similar accident.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Usually, when someone suffers a motorcycle wreck, it does not raise the probability of other members of the victim's neighborhood having a similar accident.


Errr unless it’s a wipe out someone else usually does crash with you. I was once on an off ramp and a motorcycle breezing past center lane took out my mirror. Was pod. They didn’t even stop and just ran. 

Everyone’s going to get it. If the vaccine really is only 60% effective at symptomatic infection (and doesn’t stop transmission as the cdc is implying) unless you bunker everyone is going to come down with it. It’s inevitable. We are only talking timing now


----------



## crush

When was the last time someone like PoorEspola, dad4, husker and all the other health pros pushing the jab have talked about your real health? Seriously?  Obama party was so sophisticated with Elitism they didn't need to wear a mask.  Plus, everyone got a bag of Kush.  Crush is for eating healthy, veggies, fruit, nuts, exercise, BMI and so much more?  Poorespola wants to go on his cruises without God believing folks.  A true Elite snob that he is.  Look at the liar lie and and mislead everyone with death and fear.  Blamed all the deaths last year on Covid 19.  Today, all deaths are from stupid non-jabbers like me, my wife and my daughter and I believe my boy.  I will take you fools on any day of the week.  Evil monsters.  Look at Nova spreading his fear and death lies.  Dude, I swear to you as fellow forum user and to all; the United States Military and NSA is watching you right now. All health doctors, teachers and everyone listen up.  Watch what you push on my kids.  You can have all the travel you want.  I will not fly ever with you on a plane.  You can have all the bars, casinos, booz, meat, cruise ships, strip joints, all the fantasy Islands, all public schools but one thing you can't have is is our kids.  Freedom for me and freedom for our kids.  Let them go!!!  Game on.  Q drop 1839, 3 year delta......PACKETS?  From?  When?


----------



## tjinaz

What I find ironic is the same people who typically respond "my body.. my choice" are now all the sudden behind the government telling people what they can and can't do.


----------



## Desert Hound

tjinaz said:


> What I find ironic is the same people who typically respond "my body.. my choice" are now all the sudden behind the government telling people what they can and can't do.


It is different this time. 

Why? 

Because you might spread the virus to someone else who is going to survive it and not even know they had it. Or maybe got the sniffles.

Big difference


----------



## Desert Hound

Just found another copy of a vaxx passport. 

Use wisely.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr unless it’s a wipe out someone else usually does crash with you. I was once on an off ramp and a motorcycle breezing past center lane took out my mirror. Was pod. They didn’t even stop and just ran.
> 
> Everyone’s going to get it. If the vaccine really is only 60% effective at symptomatic infection (and doesn’t stop transmission as the cdc is implying) unless you bunker everyone is going to come down with it. It’s inevitable. We are only talking timing now


I don't understand how you think that is responsive to what I posted.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't understand how you think that is responsive to what I posted.


Why doesn’t that surprise. Ha!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr unless it’s a wipe out someone else usually does crash with you. I was once on an off ramp and a motorcycle breezing past center lane took out my mirror. Was pod. They didn’t even stop and just ran.
> 
> Everyone’s going to get it. If the vaccine really is only 60% effective at symptomatic infection (and doesn’t stop transmission as the cdc is implying) unless you bunker everyone is going to come down with it. It’s inevitable. We are only talking timing now


You’re actually using the “human projectile” theory they used to explain seat belt laws.  No one took it seriously, because it was a really bad argument.  

It’s still a really bad argument.  ”Hit by flying motorcyclist” is not, in fact, a common cause of death in the United States.

By contrast, ”infected by unvaccinated covid victim”, is a common cause of death.  Hundreds of them per day.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> By contrast, ”infected by unvaccinated covid victim”, is a common cause of death.  Hundreds of them per day.


Um….didn’t the CDC and the Great Dr Fauci go on record stating that Vaxx’d can carry and spread the virus?  So let’s step outside the narrative that it’s the Unvaxx’d fault.  I mean, does my Vaccine not work if you don’t have one?

Now a second question, how many of the unvaxx’d that are in the hospital have had Covid once already?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Why doesn’t that surprise. Ha!


Does that mean that all your neighbors will have motorcycle accidents?


----------



## crush

I just got off the phone with my pal from Kirkland, WA.  Liberal as they come, but truth and Justice come first before being a Lib.  I tend to be on the Conservative side with a taste of "everyone" should have a Basic Living Wage ((BLW)), which to me is food, shelter, blankets, clothing and opportunity to contribute.  Mental illness needs to be done with compassion and wisdom.  Anyway, he is 100% NEVER and I mean NEVER EVER taking another shot.  He fessed up with honesty.  He now see's how he and some of his pals were played up in the Pacific Northwest.  He and his wife also HATED t.  Not no more.  I was blind but now I see he says   I'm so proud of him.  He thanked me for speaking truth to him.  He's just getting over the Rona, after two jabs.  His wife is sick and best pal is sick.  All jabbed too......He knows it's not anti-jabbers giving him the flu because his whole family and neighborhood got the jabs.  He say's the flu usually hits later in the Fall but all of sudden people feel sick.


----------



## crush

Special Elitist Only Voyage- Here is Husker and his wife getting ready to set sail.  Remember, no jab, no fun cruise.


----------



## crush

Continued pics for special set sail for the Jabbers ((Elitist only)) cruise ship

Espola and his lady


----------



## crush

and let's not forget Dad 4 ((Ted)) and his girl ((Marcia)).  They not only got the third shot, they also had their mask on during the voyage to Norway!!!


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Um….didn’t the CDC and the Great Dr Fauci go on record stating that Vaxx’d can carry and spread the virus?  So let’s step outside the narrative that it’s the Unvaxx’d fault.  I mean, does my Vaccine not work if you don’t have one?
> 
> Now a second question, how many of the unvaxx’d that are in the hospital have had Covid once already?


“can spread the virus” is not the same as “equally likely to spread the virus”.  

I’d say the growth in Delta cases is absolutely the fault of the unvaccinated people.  They’re more likely to catch it, more likely to spread it, and less likely to take precautions to lower that risk.

Yes, a vaccinated person who stays outside and uses a mask *can* spread the virus.  But- on average- they aren’t very good at it.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> “can spread the virus” is not the same as “equally likely to spread the virus”.
> 
> I’d say the growth in Delta cases is absolutely the fault of the unvaccinated people.  They’re more likely to catch it, more likely to spread it, and less likely to take precautions to lower that risk.
> 
> Yes, a vaccinated person who stays outside and uses a mask *can* spread the virus.  But- on average- they aren’t very good at it.


Then what is the difference?

And the 2nd question???


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker4Life said:


> Then what is the difference?
> 
> And the 2nd question???


The difference is a lot of people cannot get their head around the following:

- the vast vast majority of people have no real risk. 
- the virus is endemic. It will be here year after year. 
- we cannot allow safety theater to continue on for something that only affects a small minority of people. That group by the way is vaxxed at a high rate. 
- stop worry about people who chose not to get vaxxed. Their choice.


----------



## Roadrunner

Kicker4Life said:


> Then what is the difference?
> 
> And the 2nd question???



The Delta variant is better at replicating itself (making copies of itself) than the original variant, and so people infected with it carry a lot more (1000x) virus in their upper respiratory passages.  These higher titers are part of why this variant is easier to spread.  Comparing infections in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people, those who are vaccinated are more likely to have lower titers (less virus) and a shorter duration of upper respiratory infection. There are additional factors that go into how likely someone is going to spread the virus, but the number of infectious virus particles is a key part of it.  The immune cells in the vaccinated people will also be much more readily able to prevent the virus from gaining a foothold in their lungs and causing severe disease.


----------



## dad4

The dif


Kicker4Life said:


> Then what is the difference?
> 
> And the 2nd question???


The difference is in the number of people you are likely to infect, if you do catch covid.

One estimate is that a vaccinated person will, on average, infect about a third as many people.  If that is correct, 3 vaccinated people pose about the same  risk as one unvaccinated person.  If your country is half vaccinated and half not vaccinated, then the unvaccinated half are resonsible for about 3/4 of the problem, and the vaccinated half are responsible for about 1/4 of the problem.  


Question 2- I don’t have good data for the prevalence of second infections among previous covid patients.  Nor do I have good data for the prevalence of Delta infections among people who _think_ they already had covid.  (those two groups are substantially different)


----------



## Kicker4Life

Roadrunner said:


> The Delta variant is better at replicating itself (making copies of itself) than the original variant, and so people infected with it carry a lot more (1000x) virus in their upper respiratory passages.  These higher titers are part of why this variant is easier to spread.  Comparing infections in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people, those who are vaccinated are more likely to have lower titers (less virus) and a shorter duration of upper respiratory infection. There are additional factors that go into how likely someone is going to spread the virus, but the number of infectious virus particles is a key part of it.  The immune cells in the vaccinated people will also be much more readily able to prevent the virus from gaining a foothold in their lungs and causing severe disease.


Thank you!  That makes sense.  

What’s your take on the 2nd question?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Question 2- I don’t have good data for the prevalence of second infections among previous covid patients.  Nor do I have good data for the prevalence of Delta infections among people who _think_ they already had covid.  (those two groups are substantially different)


Isn’t it interesting that they have all the data available except for that?  

So don’t blame the “Unvaxx’d” as a whole as you can’t quantify how many of those “Unvaxx’d” have Natures Vaccine!


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> The Delta variant is better at replicating itself (making copies of itself) than the original variant, and so people infected with it carry a lot more (1000x) virus in their upper respiratory passages.  These higher titers are part of why this variant is easier to spread.  Comparing infections in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people, those who are vaccinated are more likely to have lower titers (less virus) and a shorter duration of upper respiratory infection. There are additional factors that go into how likely someone is going to spread the virus, but the number of infectious virus particles is a key part of it.  The immune cells in the vaccinated people will also be much more readily able to prevent the virus from gaining a foothold in their lungs and causing severe disease.


Well tell that to my pal with blood clot on the back of leg Roadrunner.  He told me it feels like a gnarly Charlie horse.  He got fever and got his ass to ER.  Blood thinner saved his life.  Thank God for that drug, right?

Dude is drinking blood thinner now and has to for a long time.  Plus, two jabs already with more boosters to come.  WTF is he putting in his body?  Perfectly healthy before and not no more. No, no, no death is not knocking on door but he's full of fear bro.  Welcome to the forum & Camp Delta bro.  NSA/Space Force is watching you big time and me as well.  I got serious threat from assholes three years ago who were cheating big time.  Welcome to the forum BTW.  Husker, Dad and Poorespola need back up big time.


----------



## Roadrunner

Kicker4Life said:


> Thank you!  That makes sense.
> 
> What’s your take on the 2nd question?


I have not seen data on how many of the unvaccinated people currently in the hospital had either confirmed or suspected cases of covid in the past.  I think an underlying question here is whether natural immunity is as robust as immunity from a vaccine.  It could be as robust in some cases, and not in others.  I would add to that to ask whether natural immunity following an infection with one variant will be as protective against another variant as immunity from vaccine x, y, or z.  In that regard I did read a peer reviewed paper that suggested that the RNA based vaccines were more likely to lead to protection from variants than natural immunity because the spike protein produced by the RNA will adopt a greater variety of conformations (shapes), allowing the immune system to create a larger variety of antibodies against the spike protein.  Since the spike protein is the main target for the immune system, having all the other proteins produced in a natural infection won't necessarily be any advantage.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Well tell that to my pal with blood clot on the back of leg Roadrunner.  He told me it feels like a gnarly Charlie horse.  He got fever and got his ass to ER.  Blood thinner saved his life.  Thank God for that drug, right?
> 
> Dude is drinking blood thinner now and has to for a long time.  Plus, two jabs already with more boosters to come.  WTF is he putting in his body?  Perfectly healthy before and not no more. No, no, no death is not knocking on door but he's full of fear bro.  Welcome to the forum & Camp Delta bro.  NSA/Space Force is watching you big time and me as well.  I got serious threat from assholes three years ago who were cheating big time.  Welcome to the forum BTW.  Husker, Dad and Poorespola need back up big time.


Thanks for the welcome Crush.  Modern medicine can definitely be amazing in all the problems it can help address.  I'm glad your friend was able to get help.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Thanks for the welcome Crush.  Modern medicine can definitely be amazing in all the problems it can help address.  I'm glad your friend was able to get help.


Thank you.  Just curious Roadrunner.  Where you from?  DD or DS?  Are you a doctor or in health?  I love your writing skills btw.  I heard t speak and he thinks people should get the Jab but also free not too and without getting fired.  You can have the booz & the cruises...lol!!  I'm 100% down with that.  What say you?  Dad thinks I'm SOL and should move to FL so I can be a salesman without a mask?  People like my smile and feel my warmth and kindness and with a mask on, well it sucks and it makes the sales call horrible.  No one is even interested in growing their biz.  Most small businesses owners have lost everything or are barely on life support.  Turn the table game is fast approaching.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Thank you.  Just curious Roadrunner.  Where you from?  DD or DS?  Are you a doctor or in health?  I love your writing skills btw.  I heard t speak and he thinks people should get the Jab but also free not too and without getting fired.  You can have the booz & the cruises...lol!!  I'm 100% down with that.  What say you?  Dad thinks I'm SOL and should move to FL so I can be a salesman without a mask?  People like my smile and feel my warmth and kindness and with a mask on, well it sucks and it makes the sales call horrible.  No one is even interested in growing their biz.  Most small businesses owners have lost everything or are barely on life support.  Turn the table game is fast approaching.


I have a DS who has been crazy about soccer since he discovered it.  Definitely very competitive and has worked hard to try to be the best he can be. I've been learning from his journey.  The soccer world is interesting.  

My training is as a virologist.  I think it's amazing that we actually have vaccines that are effective against a coronavirus.  There's a long history, not always great, for vaccine development.  I understand the concerns and hesitation.  Vaccines are also interesting in how they are not just about personal health.  Yes, my DS and I are vaccinated.  We also probably had covid just as schools were shutting down last year. (There weren't tests available at the time given our symptoms.)


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> I have a DS who has been crazy about soccer since he discovered it.  Definitely very competitive and has worked hard to try to be the best he can be. I've been learning from his journey.  The soccer world is interesting.
> 
> My training is as a virologist.  I think it's amazing that we actually have vaccines that are effective against a coronavirus.  There's a long history, not always great, for vaccine development.  I understand the concerns and hesitation.  Vaccines are also interesting in how they are not just about personal health.  Yes, my DS and I are vaccinated.  We also probably had covid just as schools were shutting down last year. (There weren't tests available at the time given our symptoms.)


Welcome bro.  My DS was super fast but hated soccer at early age.  Then Coach Dave from Pony League ruin any dreams I had of him playing sports.  Q.  Do you think my dd should be allowed to play HSS private or public without getting the jab?  She's cool with wearing mask to the game and away from the game.  She's cool with being tested.  Thanks for bring soming sanity to this place.


----------



## crush

Look WHOse talking again.  Dr. F. 

Fauci says *'hopefully'* making young kids wear masks won't have 'lasting negative impact'
Delta variant is *filling up pediatric hospitals ((pics please and not from Italy)) *and seems more threatening, Fauci said

During an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, Dr. Fauci said it’s important to keep an *"open mind"* about masking after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended that unvaccinated children ages 2 and older wear masks and that students wear masks in all K-12 schools, regardless of vaccination status, in light of the *rapid spread *of the COVID-19 delta variant. 

It's not comfortable, obviously, for children to wear masks, particularly the younger children," he said. "But you know, what we’re starting to see, Hugh, and I think it's going to unfold even more as the weeks go by, that this virus not only is so *extraordinarily transmissible,* but we're starting to see pediatric hospitals get more and more younger people and kids not only numerically, but what seems to be more *severe disease. * 

Plus, Dr. F  has a 
*Report shows Fauci linked to NIAID's deadly experiments performed on dogs*
What on God's green earth is everybody that jabbed have in their today.  Roadrunner, you have any theories on what is in the experimental drug?  I know we got bat, spike, some sort of fetus stem or cell and now maybe some dog?  Woof woof!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I was confused why they were asking Lamar Jackson about his vaccine status. He got COVID twice. How much more protection will he get from a vaccine?


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Look WHOse talking again.  Dr. F.
> 
> Fauci says *'hopefully'* making young kids wear masks won't have 'lasting negative impact'
> Delta variant is *filling up pediatric hospitals ((pics please and not from Italy)) *and seems more threatening, Fauci said
> 
> During an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, Dr. Fauci said it’s important to keep an *"open mind"* about masking after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended that unvaccinated children ages 2 and older wear masks and that students wear masks in all K-12 schools, regardless of vaccination status, in light of the *rapid spread *of the COVID-19 delta variant.
> 
> It's not comfortable, obviously, for children to wear masks, particularly the younger children," he said. "But you know, what we’re starting to see, Hugh, and I think it's going to unfold even more as the weeks go by, that this virus not only is so *extraordinarily transmissible,* but we're starting to see pediatric hospitals get more and more younger people and kids not only numerically, but what seems to be more *severe disease. *
> 
> Plus, Dr. F  has a
> *Report shows Fauci linked to NIAID's deadly experiments performed on dogs*
> What on God's green earth is everybody that jabbed have in their today.  Roadrunner, you have any theories on what is in the experimental drug?  I know we got bat, spike, some sort of fetus stem or cell and now maybe some dog?  Woof woof!!


The RNA based vaccines don't have anything to do with stem cells or dogs.  

You may be familiar that cells contain chromosomes made of DNA that serve as encyclopedias/ instructions for carrying out the functions of the cell.  To read a particular sentence or paragraph in the book, special enzymes (types of proteins) create RNA versions of the information.  Messenger RNAs are RNAs whose information is then translated by other complexes in the cell to make a particular protein.  The Pfizer and moderns vaccines are at their heart a stabilized messenger RNA that contains the information to make the SARS-CoV2 spike protein.  But, the vaccine RNA has to be able to get into cells, so the companies surrounded the stabilized mRNA with lipid based spheres (nanoparticles).  This helps the vaccine to deliver its cargo through the outer layers of our cells, which are composed of phospholipids.  The companies wouldn't have to use any cells to make the RNAs or their delivery shells.  Their technology is a lot easier to scale than, for example, flu vaccines that use chicken eggs.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re actually using the “human projectile” theory they used to explain seat belt laws.  No one took it seriously, because it was a really bad argument.
> 
> It’s still a really bad argument.  ”Hit by flying motorcyclist” is not, in fact, a common cause of death in the United States.
> 
> By contrast, ”infected by unvaccinated covid victim”, is a common cause of death.  Hundreds of them per day.


If the vaccine effectiveness is really 60% to prevent transmission or thereabouts (a big if) there is no difference between unvaccinated and vaccinated spread


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> The RNA based vaccines don't have anything to do with stem cells or dogs.
> 
> You may be familiar that cells contain chromosomes made of DNA that serve as encyclopedias/ instructions for carrying out the functions of the cell.  To read a particular sentence or paragraph in the book, special enzymes (types of proteins) create RNA versions of the information.  Messenger RNAs are RNAs whose information is then translated by other complexes in the cell to make a particular protein.  The Pfizer and moderns vaccines are at their heart a stabilized messenger RNA that contains the information to make the SARS-CoV2 spike protein.  But, the vaccine RNA has to be able to get into cells, so the companies surrounded the stabilized mRNA with lipid based spheres (nanoparticles).  This helps the vaccine to deliver its *cargo* through the outer layers of our cells, which are composed of phospholipids.  The companies wouldn't have to use any cells to make the RNAs or their delivery shells.  Their technology is a lot easier to scale than, for example, flu vaccines that use chicken eggs.


Can you share with us the ingredients that the "cargo" is made of from Pfizer this new delta variant?  Thanks


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> I have not seen data on how many of the unvaccinated people currently in the hospital had either confirmed or suspected cases of covid in the past.  I think an underlying question here is whether natural immunity is as robust as immunity from a vaccine.  It could be as robust in some cases, and not in others.  I would add to that to ask whether natural immunity following an infection with one variant will be as protective against another variant as immunity from vaccine x, y, or z.  In that regard I did read a peer reviewed paper that suggested that the RNA based vaccines were more likely to lead to protection from variants than natural immunity because the spike protein produced by the RNA will adopt a greater variety of conformations (shapes), allowing the immune system to create a larger variety of antibodies against the spike protein.  Since the spike protein is the main target for the immune system, having all the other proteins produced in a natural infection won't necessarily be any advantage.


There is some data contrary from Israel but as you say there’s not a whole lot on natural immunity yet

One anecdote: outdoor bbq. Double vaxxed person wearing n95 except to eat.  9 attendees. 3 had confirmed natural immunity and a recent antibody count of 10 on the scale but not vaxxed. Other 5 were double vaxxed.  Double vaxxed attendee had covid (had sniffles at the party…thought it was allergy…found out because she’s a nut about testing every 2 weeks). 3 of the double vaxxed/outdoor/masked attendees fell ill with covid confirmed with test. Of the 3 the 2 younger were not serious the older was.  Patient zero sheltered with the naturally immune individuals. Said individuals did not fall ill and took 2 spaces out covid tests to confirm.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> There is some data contrary from Israel but as you say there’s not a whole lot on natural immunity yet
> 
> One anecdote: outdoor bbq. Double vaxxed person wearing n95 except to eat.  9 attendees. 3 had confirmed natural immunity and a recent antibody count of 10 on the scale but not vaxxed. Other 5 were double vaxxed.  Double vaxxed attendee had covid (had sniffles at the party…thought it was allergy…found out because she’s a nut about testing every 2 weeks). 3 of the double vaxxed/outdoor/masked attendees fell ill with covid confirmed with test. Of the 3 the 2 younger were not serious the older was.  Patient zero sheltered with the naturally immune individuals. Said individuals did not fall ill and took 2 spaces out covid tests to confirm.


Grace, everyone I know who has been sick lately got the jabs.  I know no one who is sick + no jab.  It's jab plus flu from what I see.  I'm not lying at all.  Those are the facts.  Hospitals are not over crowded either.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

He was an athlete in the best shape of his life. Then Covid-19 nearly killed him | CNN
					

It's been a little over two months since those touch-and-go days and Ahmad Ayyad still recovering. But he has a message -- for those who refuse to wear a mask during this pandemic, for those dismissive of public health guidance, for those in the prime of their health and feel invincible against...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Fitness enthusiast, 42, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid
					

John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

tjinaz said:


> What I find ironic is the same people who typically respond "my body.. my choice" are now all the sudden behind the government telling people what they can and can't do.


It's still my body, my choice.  But, you should choose wisely.  The vaccines are safe and effective.

Also, don't discount the fact that our children are required to have the following vaccinations to enter public schools:
 - Diphtheria/Tetanus/ Pertussis 
 - Polio 
 - Measles/Mumps/Rubella 
 - Varicella (Chickenpox) 
 - Hepatitis B 

It's truly pathetic that some "news" organizations have sought to politicize the vaccine.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

crush said:


> Grace, everyone I know who has been sick lately got the jabs.  I know no one who is sick + no jab.  It's jab plus flu from what I see.  I'm not lying at all.  Those are the facts.  Hospitals are not over crowded either.


You might want to read up on what is happening in Florida.


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> You might want to read up on what is happening in Florida.


You got way too much fear and you watch CNN all day.  I only care about OC bro and this BS.  Anyone with a brain can see the lies.  WTF!!!


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> It's still my body, my choice.  But, you should choose wisely.


THanks for the choice Nova.  basically, get jabbed or lose job?  Thanks a lot asshole!!!


----------



## NOVA.Dad

crush said:


> THanks for the choice Nova.  basically, get jabbed or lose job?  Thanks a lot asshole!!!


The vaccines are safe and effective, don't believe the misinformation.


----------



## NOVA.Dad




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If the vaccine effectiveness is really 60% to prevent transmission or thereabouts (a big if) there is no difference between unvaccinated and vaccinated spread


Nice base rate error.  

Phrased more clearly, the 30% who are not vaccinated are causing as much harm as the 70% who are.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nice base rate error.
> 
> Phrased more clearly, the 30% who are not vaccinated are causing as much harm as the 70% who are.


Wasn't the entire justification the CDC used for renewed masks was that the viral loads in both were similar?

It's not a question of "who is causing more harm".  It's that so long as there is a sufficiently large pool of the vulnerable, herd immunity is an illusion.  So we are talking restrictions forever or move on and embrace the reality.  I have yet to hear an offramp from you.


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> The vaccines are safe and effective, don't believe the misinformation.


What about my pal who has blood clot and had two jabs?  I can prove this through text too.  I have another pal who is sick and he got two jabs.  It's not life threatening at all, just pal is upset because he's sick again and now has to wear a mask and besides, the injection company is trying to line him up for third round.  Do you see the problem?  Assholes are going around blaming the non jab group for their illnesses.  That will never be a winning formula, TRUST ME!!!  Why are people like you blaming people like me for drunk driving and giving people the Delta?  I'm super duper pissed off and I will NOT take it anymore.  I am not sick ever now.  Lost 45 LBs and feel and look great.  I should be praised and "well done crush" "way to go crush, keep it up' or "Man, crush is right and I need to head his advice on health."  I got it back in Jan 2020 Nova Dad and I don;t think I will ever get sick again.  BTW, do you eat a lot of meat and drink alcohol?


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11346


Enjoy the mask life with all the fear.  What a fun life.  Stay safe....lol!  I get it now.  This is classic meme that makes you look like a wimp!!!  Look how happy everyone is without a mask for jumping off in Faith.  Are you still afraid to look under your bed at night?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wasn't the entire justification the CDC used for renewed masks was that the viral loads in both were similar?
> 
> It's not a question of "who is causing more harm".  It's that so long as there is a sufficiently large pool of the vulnerable, herd immunity is an illusion.  So we are talking restrictions forever or move on and embrace the reality.  I have yet to hear an offramp from you.


Similar?  Of course not.  We have plenty of evidence that viral concentrations are lower in vaccinated people.  

Why would their emissions be similar, when they are producing less virus?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Similar?  Of course not.  We have plenty of evidence that viral concentrations are lower in vaccinated people.
> 
> Why would their emissions be similar, when they are producing less virus?


Hey I may be remembering this wrong but the entire justification of the cdc mask mandate was that some vaccinated individuals produced similar viral loads to unvaccinated individuals.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Similar?  Of course not.  We have plenty of evidence that viral concentrations are lower in vaccinated people.
> 
> Why would their emissions be similar, when they are producing less virus?


Look dude, I know what I see, hear and talk about with everyday neighbors and friends.  I can honestly say that 95% of the people my wife and I know have been jabbed at least twice.  I swear.  We have one, two, three and four other friends we see once a month to spend time together.  All of us our 99% vegan.  Super healthy.  Jim lost 22 LBs and his wife lost 65 LBs, no joke bro.  I told her she needs to do a photo shoot.  She got teared up from that compliment.  I told her husband he needs to drop 35 more and he can be in the shoot too   The only people we know who have been sick last 12 months are our Jab friends.  We dont judge and we dont tell them to stay away from us like your preaching.  We also dont tell them to mask up.  However, some of them ((the vaccinated)) are now getting scared.  It's so sad to see humans behave like this.  Fear is addictive, 100% it is and you sir are afraid.  You dont need to be Dad.  Run to the light where truth & justice live.  Let's all take a look at the election to see why so many {D} run areas closed down for the night?


----------



## crush

I sick & I tired of being accused the last 5 years for being a t supporter when I wasnt.  Espola labeled me early on as a t supporter.  I kicked his ass in fair online debating ((I'm the only one he super ignored)). The only thing I support is America and the Military and Equality for all human life.  Then the lawyers started shit on FB and said anyone who voted or supports t is a racist and we cant be friends unless we vote for Satan DD.  I got so pissed off at my friends.  Seriously, no one tells me who to or not vote for, even if i havent voted in a long long time.  I was not a fan of t, not at all. I will say today he looks great and is going to go down as the GOAT of all Presidents, MOO!!!  I would be laughing my head off if my dream comes true.  I told all of you I had a dream that everyone was crying and saying sorry to t for being assholes to him.  If what I know is true, then my dream will come true.  Then the same asshats wanted me to kneel and ask for mercy because I'm white and have white privilege. WTF is up with all this BS?  I have no hope if I wrong.  Now I'm really pissed.  Drunk driver I am now too for saying no to experimental drugs ((let that sink in for a moment)).  I wont wear a mask, wont get jabbed and wont give up my freedom.  Then this and that and more of this bullshit.  I so sick, I'm tired. I saw a video I cant find that had a dude cruising around hospitals and filming empty places all over that had marketed outbreaks on the news.  In war time, this is illegal and you could find yourself in big doo doo with the MP.  Military court is swift and to the point.  *Average case goes 1-3 days.  

Nothing has changed!*


----------



## crush

I have a good guy buddy story that is super sad.  He does everything right kind of a guy.  Married with three kids and wife that stays home.  Dude makes well over $300K.  He owns two homes and rents out two of them.  One of the tenants hasn't paid rent for 12 months.  I think he's owed $30K. He always makes his payments on time and has 800+ credit score.  His company is one of those big ones that says, no jab no job.  He was so stressed he took the jabs to keep income coming.  You can;t freaking lose your job in this down turn of all turns.  I spoke to him just now and he said he's now getting a cold and is full of regret and anger.  Full on fits of rage!!atNothing serious but feels lied too big time.  Plus his work just said, everyone mask is required to work place.  He owns so much he owes it all to the bankers and he doesn;t want to let them down because they will zap his credit rating.


----------



## Kicker4Life

NOVA.Dad said:


> It's truly pathetic that A MAJORITY OF "news" organizations have sought to politicize the vaccine.


fixed it…..


----------



## N00B

NOVA.Dad said:


> It's truly pathetic that some "news" organizations have sought to politicize the vaccine.


I think you and me… we need to unpack this a bit *summons Ted Laso voice*

That ‘News’ organizations politicize anything is wrong… On both sides! I don’t enjoy watching the evening ‘Editorial’ on any channel. 

I’m also upset at how the ‘news’ channels created distrust in vaccines that were developed in the 2020 news cycle.  Wait, those are the vaccines currently available…


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> Well tell that to my pal with blood clot on the back of leg Roadrunner.  He told me it feels like a gnarly Charlie horse.  He got fever and got his ass to ER.  Blood thinner saved his life.  Thank God for that drug, right?
> 
> Dude is drinking blood thinner now and has to for a long time.  Plus, two jabs already with more boosters to come.  WTF is he putting in his body?  Perfectly healthy before and not no more. No, no, no death is not knocking on door but he's full of fear bro.  Welcome to the forum & Camp Delta bro.  NSA/Space Force is watching you big time and me as well.  I got serious threat from assholes three years ago who were cheating big time.  Welcome to the forum BTW.  Husker, Dad and Poorespola need back up big time.


Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


Thanks for sharing.  I'm sure you will be a lifetime time booster....lol! Anyone else have true news?  I mean it.  Share good news of how the jab has been so wonderful. Let's here it from the jabbers.  I believe that if you want the jab, get the jab.  If you dont, don't. Why am I being labeled a drunk driver and being accused of giving the delta out? BTW, super proud of you for dropping 30 Lbs.  I only said the people I know who are sick have been jabbed.  I also know K&S and he was jabbed and also listen to crush and eat more veggies and lost weight.  You can do both the jab and lose weight.  The fact still remains the same.  Assholes are dividing our country with the vax vs non-vax.  It's sad as shit and so funny that people lose everything.  I hope you enjoy the experience.  Happy for you Nocal dad


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


You should do a commercial for the jab...lol.  It's written well and I believe you.


----------



## Batman

NorCalDad said:


> Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


You are full of shit!  You probably gained 30lbs and is lethargic


----------



## NorCalDad

Batman said:


> You are full of shit!  You probably gained 30lbs and is lethargic


I'm crapping you negative Batman.  Even played some soccer the other day and felt better than ever.  You should give it a whirl if you haven't already.  Even mentally I'm feeling amped and ready to go.  I'd take 10 more shots if I could.


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


That would explain the new Olympic records this year....


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> I'm crapping you negative Batman.  Even played some soccer the other day and felt better than ever. * You should give it a whirl if you haven't already*.  Even mentally I'm feeling amped and ready to go.  I'd take 10 more shots if I could.


I choose no to do the the whirl of getting the jabs and I hope I can find work without it.  So many people who owned small businesses have lost it all NoCal.  Do you have any empathy for others? The jab mandate is coming.  My dd will not be able to attend school her Sr year from what is going down behind the scenes of desperation by the main cheats who have back against the wall because they cheated and lied.  No jab, no prom.  No jab, no after school soccer.  No jab, no dreams.  No jab, no access.  All this from the same assholes that kept my dd out of the Elitist soccer league called the GDA.  Same elitist who cheat all the time so their dd or ds can have all the access.  Selfishness will be so many people's downfall.  Karma is coming hard for those WHO lie, cheat, kill, destroy and harm innocence.  Mark my words.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> I choose no to do the the whirl of getting the jabs and I hope I can find work without it.  So many people who owned small businesses have lost it all NoCal.  Do you have any empathy for others? The jab mandate is coming.  My dd will not be able to attend school her Sr year from what is going down behind the scenes of desperation by the main cheats who have back against the wall because they cheated and lied.  No jab, no prom.  No jab, no after school soccer.  No jab, no dreams.  No jab, no access.  All this from the same assholes that kept my dd out of the Elitist soccer league called the GDA.  Same elitist who cheat all the time so their dd or ds can have all the access.  Selfishness will be so many people's downfall.  Karma is coming hard for those WHO lie, cheat, kill, destroy and harm innocence.  Mark my words.


Hard for me to have empathy for anti-vaxers when I feel this effing good. Plus your anecdotes don't ring true in my circles. 

Be back in a bit. Going to go hit the trails.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Hard for me to have empathy for anti-vaxers when I feel this effing good. Plus your anecdotes don't ring true in my circles.
> 
> Be back in a bit. Going to go hit the trails.


I'm happy you found your happiness.  Thanks for being honest NorCalDad.  I'm SoCalDad and I will fight my dd rights and I will fight for my wife and my rights.  My dd has almost zero chance of dying from the flu or Corona as you call it.  Zero chance dude.  She can catch the flu and if her lungs fill up, she could die.  I had X girlfriend who went to UCLA back in the day.  Anyway, her roommate died from the flu, no joke.  We all went out on a double date and she looked amazing.  Happy, running trails and just on fire for life.  Two days later, my X told me her roomy was filling super sick. Coughing and hard to breath because her poor lungs were filling up.  She went to ER and died three days later from the flu.  It happened every year until 2020, when the flu went away and was replaced by Corona.  Now your forced to get flu shot or as some like to call the spiked vaccine.  BTW, I was told by a Military pal that some people will become more A.I. with the jabs and will be programed to train and get ready.  They have access to your brain now.  Be careful what you believe and inject in your arms.  Did you get #3?  You are now the second person that told me the Jabs are making him feel powerful, just like this fool.........


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Man, ever since I got the vaccine I've felt amazing.  I've dropped 30lbs, been biking like a mad man.  I'm crushing my strava times from 10+ years ago and I used to race.  I keep telling myself the vaccine is better than HGH.   Coincidence?  Probably, but I'm certainly not feeling worse.


Are you sure you got the vaccine and not a steroid shot?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Are you sure you got the vaccine and not a steroid shot?


Look out Wat Fly, I have no idea wtf is in these last batches.  All I know is their experimental.  I know for a fact that other trials of experimenting with viruses and jabs were the use of Baby parts, Bat parts and Dog parts.  Dr. Stanley said the kids they used for their experiment was kids who were abused or came from a bad tribe.  I'm sure they didnt take dogs away from happy homes.  They found abused dogs who probably had rabies as well but I can;t prove that at this time and then went to a Bat cave to get the Bat.  They take poor Spike, the Bat and little Baby human from her mom and made "spike protein" and then mix it all up and shake it.  I'm getting concerned that people might have rabies and or some sort of spike adrenaline that makes people feel super human and above the basic rights of others and will only obey their master puppet.


----------



## watfly

Kicker4Life said:


> Isn’t it interesting that they have all the data available except for that?
> 
> So don’t blame the “Unvaxx’d” as a whole as you can’t quantify how many of those “Unvaxx’d” have Natures Vaccine!


BS they don't have the data.  If the previously infected were having subsequent infections in any substantial fashion you would be hearing about it all day long as more evidence that you have to be vaccinated and wear a mask.  Those that are controlling the message don't want any other message out there than vaccinations and masks, with the emphasis on masks since the vaccinated can have breakthrough infections.

I'm pro-Vax and would recommend everyone get a vaccination, but I can understand how the previously infected would question the necessity of getting a vaccine.  There is also quite a few doctors that question this as well.  It's not uncommon for the previously infected to have a significant reaction to the vaccine.  It's not unreasonable to question a vaccine that makes you really sick before its supposed to protect you.

I believe there is more than one way to approach this virus and I don't think there is necessarily a "one size fits all" solution.  Why?  Because the virus is going to do its thing regardless of what we do.  Take the vaccination for example.  The majority of "experts" said you don't need a mask if you're vaccinated.  While, I believe they made that recommendation in good faith, as it turns out a not insignificant number of vaccinated are getting infected.  So now its back to wearing masks for the vaccinated.   Why were the "experts" wrong?  Because the virus doesn't give a shit about "expert" opinion.  This has been the case since day one of the pandemic.

So what do we do?  Don't be stupid if you think you're infected and move on with life...Obama has.  Stop pretending like "window dressing" is going to stop the virus.  In particular, let kids get an uninterrupted education, i.e. stop f'ing with kids like the pandemic is their cross to bear.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> BS they don't have the data.  If the previously infected were having subsequent infections in any substantial fashion you would be hearing about it all day long as more evidence that you have to be vaccinated and wear a mask.  Those that are controlling the message don't want any other message out there than vaccinations and masks, with the emphasis on masks since the vaccinated can have breakthrough infections.
> 
> I'm pro-Vax and would recommend everyone get a vaccination, but I can understand how the previously infected would question the necessity of getting a vaccine.  There is also quite a few doctors that question this as well.  It's not uncommon for the previously infected to have a significant reaction to the vaccine.  It's not unreasonable to question a vaccine that makes you really sick before its supposed to protect you.
> 
> I believe there is more than one way to approach this virus and I don't think there is necessarily a "one size fits all" solution.  Why?  Because the virus is going to do its thing regardless of what we do.  Take the vaccination for example.  The majority of "experts" said you don't need a mask if you're vaccinated.  While, I believe they made that recommendation in good faith, as it turns out a not insignificant number of vaccinated are getting infected.  So now its back to wearing masks for the vaccinated.   Why were the "experts" wrong?  Because the virus doesn't give a shit about "expert" opinion.  This has been the case since day one of the pandemic.
> 
> So what do we do?  Don't be stupid if you think you're infected and move on with life...Obama has.  Stop pretending like "window dressing" is going to stop the virus.  In particular, let kids get an uninterrupted education, i.e. stop f'ing with kids like the pandemic is their cross to bear.


Of course there is data.  This particular industry exists because of it.  Take a deep dive into the money trail (if you have time in your busy life).  And those that will scoff at the idea of a money trail and claim conspiracy has no idea how the pharma world works and how the medical community is interwoven into it.  Especially those that have achieved such status in their line of work.  Fauci is a proven liar, no doubt about it.  At a minimum, he knows how to work the system, has been doing it for years.  

There is plenty of disagreement within the public health community on the topic of kids and vaccine.  There has been enough push back and data that the FDA has stayed away from claiming the vaccines are safe for kids under 12.  What happens next with the vaccines will be half science, and half politics.  The U12 demographic represents plenty of $$$.

As @watfly has so eloquently stated ---let's stop messing with the kids.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> BS they don't have the data.  If the previously infected were having subsequent infections in any substantial fashion you would be hearing about it all day long as more evidence that you have to be vaccinated and wear a mask.  Those that are controlling the message don't want any other message out there than vaccinations and masks, with the emphasis on masks since the vaccinated can have breakthrough infections.
> 
> I'm pro-Vax and would recommend everyone get a vaccination, but I can understand how the previously infected would question the necessity of getting a vaccine.  There is also quite a few doctors that question this as well.  It's not uncommon for the previously infected to have a significant reaction to the vaccine.  It's not unreasonable to question a vaccine that makes you really sick before its supposed to protect you.
> 
> I believe there is more than one way to approach this virus and I don't think there is necessarily a "one size fits all" solution.  Why?  Because the virus is going to do its thing regardless of what we do.  Take the vaccination for example.  The majority of "experts" said you don't need a mask if you're vaccinated.  While, I believe they made that recommendation in good faith, as it turns out a not insignificant number of vaccinated are getting infected.  So now its back to wearing masks for the vaccinated.   Why were the "experts" wrong?  Because the virus doesn't give a shit about "expert" opinion.  This has been the case since day one of the pandemic.
> 
> So what do we do?  Don't be stupid if you think you're infected and move on with life...Obama has.  Stop pretending like "window dressing" is going to stop the virus.  In particular, let kids get an uninterrupted education, i.e. stop f'ing with kids like the pandemic is their cross to bear.


The Delta variant is so much better at infecting us that viral loads can be 1000x higher.  So, this means the baseline is raised now so that even some vaccinated people can accumulate virus in their upper respiratory passages. Hence the need to change mask guidance in order to try to reduce spread.  (That being said, the CDC lost some credibility during this pandemic- they need to be doing better, in my opinion.  I also wish the FDA wasn't slow walking emergency approval for vaccines for the younger kids. They could have requested that Pfizer and moderns conduct larger clinical trail groups much earlier.)

I have to rely on my community to help protect my under 12 child.  As soon as vaccines become available for her age group, I will definitely be bringing her in.


----------



## dad4

Did you actually look for second infection data on pubmed and similar sources?

It's probably there.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> I have to rely on my community to help protect my under 12 child.


This is not a gotcha "oh you must be unreasonably paranoid" question but I am genuinely curious from you, given your background, what are you concerned about?

It's been known forever that kids aren't at severe risk of death from COVID, that it impacts primarily older people severely, and the death rate for the under 12 is below flu and RSV.   Does your kid have a special need which is why you are concerned?  Do you believe the Delta is more severe in children, and if so what's the backup (because so far the data out of the UK doesn't support that at least vis-a-vis death)?  Do you have the same worries about Flu (given the vaccine is so imperfect) and RSV in your child?

Or are you worried about long COVID?  Given your background, you know there is long flu and long RSV as well.  If so, do you have a source pointing out the severity of long COVID rates in children that leads to your concerns?


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> The Delta variant is so much better at infecting us that viral loads can be 1000x higher.  So, this means the baseline is raised now so that even some vaccinated people can accumulate virus in their upper respiratory passages. Hence the need to change mask guidance in order to try to reduce spread.  (That being said, the CDC lost some credibility during this pandemic- they need to be doing better, in my opinion.  I also wish the FDA wasn't slow walking emergency approval for vaccines for the younger kids. They could have requested that Pfizer and moderns conduct larger clinical trail groups much earlier.)
> 
> I have to rely on my community to help protect my under 12 child.  As soon as vaccines become available for her age group, I will definitely be bringing her in.


I understand the basis for the mask recommendation due to Delta.  Circumstances change.  My point is that its impossible to predict what the virus will do because it has a mind of its own and its a fool's errand to believe we can stop it, as the last 18 months have clearly proven.  We can point fingers as to why the virus continues to spread, but its primarily the viruses fault, not white republicans, not anti-vaxxers, not Pelosi and Schumer when Trump was President.

Does this mean we should do nothing? No.  Get a vaccine if your comfortable.  Quarantine when your sick, like we've traditionally treated pandemics.  There is nothing that is even materially effective against asymptomatics spreading the virus.  Why interrupt business and education, in some cases permanently, for token measures that have not proven to have a material impact on the virus.

My 17 year old daughter was the first to get the vaccine in our family because she does volunteer work for senior organizations.  My son is 13 and based on consultation with his doctor we've opted not to get him vaccinated at this time.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Did you actually look for second infection data on pubmed and similar sources?
> 
> It's probably there.


Quick check, sample of one.









						Covid-19 reinfections are rare — but without better data, we don't know how rare
					

Experts say the country doesn't have a strong system to determine how frequently people are getting reinfected with Covid-19.




					www.statnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Quick check, sample of one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 reinfections are rare — but without better data, we don't know how rare
> 
> 
> Experts say the country doesn't have a strong system to determine how frequently people are getting reinfected with Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statnews.com


You'd need a tracking study done of it.  Given that there's no money in it, and it might actually harm pharma's bottom line, and the researchers that conduct it won't exactly be ingratiating themselves with the powers that be in pharma and govt health, it's not surprising there's not a whole  lot out there.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> You'd need a tracking study done of it.  Given that there's no money in it, and it might actually harm pharma's bottom line, it's not surprising there's not a whole  lot out there.


What data is out there says it's rare.  Is the data really that much better for the vaccinated getting infected?  I seriously doubt it, but you hear that message everyday, every hour, that the vaccinated are getting infected.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So what do we do? Don't be stupid if you think you're infected and move on with life..


THIS^^^

We have to stop the chattering class determine our lives. Time to move on. No masks, restrictions on dining, movement, etc. Time to go back to living life. 

If you want the vax get it. 

If you don't, then don't.

And if someone gets sick and dies? That is part of life and dealing with a myriad of diseases out there.


----------



## crush

*Bat*


*Baby*


*Abused Dog*


*Abused Cow To Stuff Face Latter*


*Hormones Too*


*Baby+Bat+Dog= A Baby Bat Dog injection*.  Add the fact most eat abused cows & chickens that are beaten and tortured all day by assholes and you got some serious deceases that looks clear as water when one takes experiment.  I will name this the Baby Bat Dog injection, "Spike" for now. Basically, their is a chance some of the Jabs have a mix of some serious shit in it.  No one really knows, right?  Look, take as many of these Spike proteins you want.  I kindly ask that you stop asking others to forcefully join you in this experiment we no nothing about.  I got this flu Jan 2020 and so did many others.  I was in Kirkland, WA and I can prove it.  My plane was so sick everyone had the virus.  Just wait for Mr. Class and Miss Action and crew will be taking.  Kick me and my family out of all the fun & entertainment, cruises, flying and making a living too just because?  Thanks for nothing.  I will remember how selfish some of you have been.  Hogging soccer is one thing, but taking a man's rights away because you cheat is not going to end well for those WHO support lying & cheating.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You'd need a tracking study done of it.  Given that there's no money in it, and it might actually harm pharma's bottom line, and the researchers that conduct it won't exactly be ingratiating themselves with the powers that be in pharma and govt health, it's not surprising there's not a whole  lot out there.


Why do you need a tracking study?

You already have data on previous confirmed infections.  All you need is a sampling study of current patients, to answer what fraction of current covid patients also had a prior covid diagnosis.  Then hit it with Bayes theorem, and you get an estimate for what fraction of prior covid patients are currently getting infected.

If the condition is rare, that method only really gets you an upper bound.  But that’s ok.  A low upper bound is a perfectly useful conclusion.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'm pro-Vax


I'm Pro Choice.  Three choices to choose from.  Therapeutic, Healthy life style and no Jab or take Jab.  Any one of three choices is good with me.  No one choice is better then the other.  Cool?


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> This is not a gotcha "oh you must be unreasonably paranoid" question but I am genuinely curious from you, given your background, what are you concerned about?
> 
> It's been known forever that kids aren't at severe risk of death from COVID, that it impacts primarily older people severely, and the death rate for the under 12 is below flu and RSV.   Does your kid have a special need which is why you are concerned?  Do you believe the Delta is more severe in children, and if so what's the backup (because so far the data out of the UK doesn't support that at least vis-a-vis death)?  Do you have the same worries about Flu (given the vaccine is so imperfect) and RSV in your child?
> 
> Or are you worried about long COVID?  Given your background, you know there is long flu and long RSV as well.  If so, do you have a source pointing out the severity of long COVID rates in children that leads to your concerns?


I have two areas of concern.  The first is simply trying to prevent the virus from continuing to replicate.  There is always the probability that some of the mutant versions that arise during an infection will be more "fit"- easier to spread, resistant to antibodies produced by our immune system, higher mortality, etc.  This virus was always going to be difficult to contain with its ability to spread before a person knows they're infected.  So this concern is one of using all tools we have to prevent spread.  Vaccines help to limit the number of good hosts for the virus, and they are great at preventing severe disease, both wonderful things.  The virus needs to be squashed worldwide.

Yes, my second concern is a general one about long term damage from the virus. Some of the damage comes from the virus directly, and other damage from our immune response- or over-response.  With the Delta variant, more kids will get covid, and even if Delta doesn't cause more severe covid in kids, the raw numbers of kids having severe covid will go up.  Since vaccines can help prevent serious infection, and there's now lots of real world data on their safety, for me the cost benefit calculation is clear.  That being said, I am of course also going to encourage people to consult with their physician as individual circumstances can vary.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> I have two areas of concern.


Me too
1. * Stop *eating meat until animal can be blessed.  Animal should be free and organic.  100% real animal.  Eat Veggies, fruit and nuts until fixed, trust me.  Take care of the body God gave you
2.  *Stop *dividing the country with Us vs Them.  Pro-Vax vs Anti-Vax.  Rich vs Poor.  R vs D.  Black vs White.  Heaven vs Hell.  My way or the highway.


----------



## Desert Hound

Roadrunner said:


> With the Delta variant, more kids will get covid, and even if Delta doesn't cause more severe covid in kids, the raw numbers of kids having severe covid will go up.


Let us put covid in perspective shall we?

Where does covid rank as an issue for the young?


----------



## NOVA.Dad

watfly said:


> What data is out there says it's rare.  Is the data really that much better for the vaccinated getting infected?  I seriously doubt it, but you hear that message everyday, every hour, that the vaccinated are getting infected.











						Fully vaccinated people are still getting infected with Covid. Experts explain why
					

So-called "breakthrough" Covid cases are being seen in people who have had two doses of a coronavirus vaccine.




					www.cnbc.com
				




_It’s difficult to know the full extent of “breakthrough” Covid cases because cases in vaccinated people tend to be mild or asymptomatic and could go easily go unnoticed, but figures collected by NBC News has found that at least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died. Still, the 125,682 “breakthrough” cases in 38 states found by NBC News represented less than 0.08% of the 164.2 million-plus people (and counting) who have been fully vaccinated since the start of the year, or about one in every 1,300._


----------



## Desert Hound

NOVA.Dad said:


> Fully vaccinated people are still getting infected with Covid. Experts explain why
> 
> 
> So-called "breakthrough" Covid cases are being seen in people who have had two doses of a coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _It’s difficult to know the full extent of “breakthrough” Covid cases because cases in vaccinated people tend to be mild or asymptomatic and could go easily go unnoticed, but figures collected by NBC News has found that at least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died. Still, the 125,682 “breakthrough” cases in 38 states found by NBC News represented less than 0.08% of the 164.2 million-plus people (and counting) who have been fully vaccinated since the start of the year, or about one in every 1,300._


I suspect of those deaths most had serious health issues. And per usual we don't know if they simply tested positive for the virus, or did the virus actually lead to death.


----------



## crush

These two sure look a like.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

NOVA.Dad said:


> Fully vaccinated people are still getting infected with Covid. Experts explain why
> 
> 
> So-called "breakthrough" Covid cases are being seen in people who have had two doses of a coronavirus vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _It’s difficult to know the full extent of “breakthrough” Covid cases because cases in vaccinated people tend to be mild or asymptomatic and could go easily go unnoticed, but figures collected by NBC News has found that at least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died. Still, the 125,682 “breakthrough” cases in 38 states found by NBC News represented less than 0.08% of the 164.2 million-plus people (and counting) who have been fully vaccinated since the start of the year, or about one in every 1,300._


Thanks for proving my point.

CNBC can collect figures on breakthrough infections but can't collect figures on the unvaccinated that have got infected twice.   Seems odd that that info isn't available don't you think?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> CNBC can collect figures on breakthrough infections but can't collect figures on the unvaccinated that have got infected twice.   Seems odd that that info isn't available don't you think?


I can't believe you can be Pro-Vax.  I'm a little shocked but I understand you well now.  Did you just watch that video of Joey Bribes talking about the V?  Bro, come on now, your smarter than that?  Dont let pride get in the way.  The sooner everyone realizes we've all been played the sooner we can fix this crime against Humanity and pf the century.  You remind me of my pal up in Kirkland btw.  Super good businessman and takes care of all his employees.  Are you mandating the vax at your company?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Thanks for proving my point.


More importantly, it's good news for the southeast.

If reinfections are rare, that puts a cap on how long FL can keep getting worse.   1 to 1.5 million more confirmed cases would be enough to to lift them from 70% to 90%.  

My swag is 3 weeks.  Maybe 4 if schools cause a bump.

They could also put on masks and dine outside.  But that's crazy talk.


----------



## espola

A lot of people are talking to themselves in this thread.  It's not really necessary - you have already convinced yourselves.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> I have two areas of concern.  The first is simply trying to prevent the virus from continuing to replicate.  There is always the probability that some of the mutant versions that arise during an infection will be more "fit"- easier to spread, resistant to antibodies produced by our immune system, higher mortality, etc.  This virus was always going to be difficult to contain with its ability to spread before a person knows they're infected.  So this concern is one of using all tools we have to prevent spread.  Vaccines help to limit the number of good hosts for the virus, and they are great at preventing severe disease, both wonderful things.  The virus needs to be squashed worldwide.
> 
> Yes, my second concern is a general one about long term damage from the virus. Some of the damage comes from the virus directly, and other damage from our immune response- or over-response.  With the Delta variant, more kids will get covid, and even if Delta doesn't cause more severe covid in kids, the raw numbers of kids having severe covid will go up.  Since vaccines can help prevent serious infection, and there's now lots of real world data on their safety, for me the cost benefit calculation is clear.  That being said, I am of course also going to encourage people to consult with their physician as individual circumstances can vary.


As to the first, the issue is the world isn't going to be vaccinated until 2023.    That's plenty of a repository for more mutations, not to mention there is an increasing number of zoonotic host possibilities.  And if you think about it the world's elderly won't be vaccinated completely until the end of 2021 or early 2022 depending on how it goes in the poorest nations....yet we would be vaccinating low risk children.

I hear you by way of the second.  More numbers mean ---> more chances for something serious, but on an individual risk basis, nothing here seems to indicate that your child's individual roll of the dice will be weighted against him/or her unless there is an underlying condition.  Here's a pretty good thread.  In any case appreciate your response...given your background was wondering if you had seen something I had overlooked.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424748537523355649


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Are you mandating the vax at your company?


No, that's an individual employee's choice in regards to their personal medical treatment.  We've asked our employees their vaccination status and required masks for unvaccinated employees (as allowed by law).  If you're sick, you stay home.  California is a very tricky state when it comes to balancing employees and customer interests (ie liabilities).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why do you need a tracking study?
> 
> You already have data on previous confirmed infections.  All you need is a sampling study of current patients, to answer what fraction of current covid patients also had a prior covid diagnosis.  Then hit it with Bayes theorem, and you get an estimate for what fraction of prior covid patients are currently getting infected.
> 
> If the condition is rare, that method only really gets you an upper bound.  But that’s ok.  A low upper bound is a perfectly useful conclusion.


Because, as we've seen from some of the confusion in numbers out of Florida, California, or Minnesota, this info isn't kept in a central repository researches can look up.  You need to know not only if there was a positive result (hopefully two tests and not the rapid test) and when it was taken.  Furthermore, doing that sampling only tells you about today....it doesn't tell you (unless all of them were from before summer last year when testing also wasn't great) what happens more than a year out.  It's possible you could be immune 3 months, 6, a year or forever.  Finally, it would be nice to compare variant to variant to see if that makes any difference.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> No, that's an individual employee's choice in regards to their personal medical treatment.  We've asked our employees their vaccination status and required masks for unvaccinated employees (as allowed by law).  If you're sick, you stay home.  California is a very tricky state when it comes to balancing employees and customer interests (ie liabilities).


Excellent bro.  I appreciate that.  I like to knock doors for a living but I'm afraid to piss people off to ask if they need anymore customers with or without a mask.  Either way, I'm going to piss off someone.  My SEO vendor wants me to sell for him and give me a slice of the profit.  I'm re-branding my company and this is super hard to do.  Honest opinion.  Should I wear a mask on my original cold call or no mask?


----------



## crush

Control Freak: I mandate you to do as I say.  
Sheep: ok
Lion: No way
Control Freak: I mandate you to take experimental drugs when i tell you to.  
Sheep: ok
Lion: Never
Control Freak: I mandate you to STFU.  
Sheep: Ok master
Lion:  You STFU back
Control Freak: I mandate you to take two jabs+boosters or you can't work here anymore.  
Sheep: ok
Lion: Are you freaking crazy.  get that Baby Bat Dog Spike mix away from me and my family.  You jabbers are contagious too,  I got this flu last year and feel awesome.  
Control freak: I am your master.
Sheep:  OK, whatever you say master mandater.  
Lion: I only have one master
Sheep:  When will this end?
Control Freak:  STFU and stop asking any questions you stupid sheep.  
Lion: When you wake up dumb sheep


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> Me too
> 1. * Stop *eating meat until animal can be blessed.  Animal should be free and organic.  100% real animal.  Eat Veggies, fruit and nuts until fixed, trust me.  Take care of the body God gave you
> 2.  *Stop *dividing the country with Us vs Them.  Pro-Vax vs Anti-Vax.  Rich vs Poor.  R vs D.  Black vs White.  Heaven vs Hell.  My way or the highway.


Stop complaining about the consequences of your choice to not ‘get the jab’… sorry it’s inconvenient to exercise your freedom.

Maybe you could spend more time telling other people what they should put in their bodies. NVM, you already do that and they’re fine with the consequences of meat, alcohol, etc.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> Stop complaining about the consequences of your choice to not ‘get the jab’… sorry it’s inconvenient to exercise your freedom.
> 
> Maybe you could spend more time telling other people what they should put in their bodies. NVM, you already do that and they’re fine with  consequences of meat, alcohol, etc.


I'm sounding the alarm.  Meat and booz is no good, MOO.  Did you guys get the jab?  I understand pressure to pay $1,000,000 loans and if no jab no pay.  That's my whole argument regarding all the elitist.  My life is in a tough spot again.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> Stop complaining about the consequences of your choice to not ‘get the jab’… sorry it’s inconvenient to exercise your freedom.
> 
> Maybe you could spend more time telling other people what they should put in their bodies. NVM, you already do that and they’re fine with the consequences of meat, alcohol, etc.


Let's still remember that the Orange man got the election ripped from the cheaters


----------



## crush

My wife say's I need to stop with trying to tell people not to eat meat and stop drinking booz and jab or no jab.  I'm sorry you guys.  I have a very good friend that almost died because he drank and eat meat everyday.  I will stop.  However, if Espola or Husker or Dad start talking about how it's my fault that the delta is spreading, well then I will decide how I will respond.  I can't even go on a cruise now.  This sucks and the mandate is coming.


----------



## crush

Did Gen. Berger say no to Jab for his Marines?  I heard a rumor but not 100%.  Any body from the United States Marines have some Intel?


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Did Gen. Berger say no to Jab for his Marines?  I heard a rumor but not 100%.  Any body from the United States Marines have some Intel?
> 
> View attachment 11372


We don't have an independent military, like Burma.  We have civilian control.  Generals do not get to override civil authorities.

If the President says the jab is mandatory, and the courts uphold it, then it is mandatory.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> We don't have an independent military, like Burma.  We have civilian control.  Generals do not get to override civil authorities.
> 
> If the President says the jab is mandatory, and the courts uphold it, then it is mandatory.


Thank you.  Anyone else?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We don't have an independent military, like Burma.  We have civilian control.  Generals do not get to override civil authorities.
> 
> If the President says the jab is mandatory, and the courts uphold it, then it is mandatory.


The anthrax cases posited that the dod could not issue an order for soldiers to take a vaccine that had not been fully approved. Once fda approval comes it would be easier to order.  The other way is for the commander in chief to issue an extraordinary waiver citing a national defense need for readiness but it would have to be a presidential order and he’d have to show covid is impacting military readiness to defend the nation (not sure he can show that unless portions of the military have slipped readiness status)

Once the fda grants full authorization it’s going to get ugly.  Some law firms are reporting outreach by several officers and enlisted preparing to refuse the shit and face court martial/dishonorable discharge.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The anthrax cases posited that the dod could not issue an order for soldiers to take a vaccine that had not been fully approved. Once fda approval comes it would be easier to order.  The other way is for the commander in chief to issue an extraordinary waiver citing a national defense need for readiness but it would have to be a presidential order and he’d have to show covid is impacting military readiness to defend the nation (not sure he can show that unless portions of the military have slipped readiness status)
> 
> Once the fda grants full authorization it’s going to get ugly.  Some law firms are reporting outreach by several officers and enlisted preparing to refuse the shit and face court martial/dishonorable discharge.


Miliary would be better off without the recalcitrants.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Miliary would be better off without the recalcitrants.


Thanks, Mr. Strickland.

“You’re a SLACKER!”


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Thanks, Mr. Strickland.
> 
> “You’re a SLACKER!”


As a compromise, transfer them all to Space Force.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> As a compromise, transfer them all to Space Force.


Given the context, that would be an effective quarantine.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 11374


Good morning cheater.  How are you feeling this morning with all those lies all over your face?  Turning red yet with guilt?  Space Force is watching you and all your pals.


----------



## crush

Vaxxxed man tells all anti-vaxxxers to STAND YOUR GROUND
					






					www.bitchute.com
				




First hand Vaxer is telling Non-Vaxers not to get the jab.  This is from a fellow human.  WHO should I listen to? 

Lindsey just got back from being sick with Corona

*"Good to be back *... To all my colleagues, I appreciate the good wishes and the phone calls and the food.* I made it.* I think the worst is behind me. *I want to reinforce a simple message:*  If you haven't been vaccinated, regarding the COVID problem, you need to *get vaccinated," *Graham, 66, said.

Graham continued*: "I've been vaccinated, and I got COVID anyway*. A couple of *really bad days* but I'm doing better and I feel on the mend and *I'm confident if I hadn't had the vaccine, it'd have been a lot worse."  *((Let me get this straight in my pee brain.  Got the V first then got the Rona anyway.  Then the old liar said it could have been worse.  Coo Coo for vaccines!  Another politician WHO Poorespola can vote on the R ticket))


----------



## crush

Testimony from mom!!!!









						Mother's Testimony Of Her 17 yo Daughter Who Took The Injection, Only Asking For Prayers
					






					www.bitchute.com
				




This mom seems like she's trying to let us know something.  The assholes are now trying to put pressure on 17 year olds.  You want a job?  You want to attend college and play soccer?  You want to go to a baseball game?  Concert?  Play?  You want anything that life and the world have to offer at this time?  "hey you, 17 year old.  Look, I bet you hate wearing the mask.  Tell you what.  Take the jab and no more mask at work."  That right there is going to get so many people in trouble.  This is not funny either assholes and cheaters.  Look at you guys defend this garbage.


----------



## tjinaz

Newsom just ordered all teachers to get vaccine or weekly tests.  See how this sits with the teachers union.  Will it be "follow the science" or "my body my choice"?  Don't think the Teachers union likes to be told to do anything .. by anyone.


----------



## crush

tjinaz said:


> Newsom just ordered all teachers to get vaccine or weekly tests.  See how this sits with the teachers union.  Will it be "follow the science" or "my body my choice"?  Don't think the Teachers union likes to be told to do anything .. by anyone.


I know one that already has a lawyer and WILL NOT get freaking jabbed to keep job.  This will snowball to him not paying his rent and so forth.  His wife is stay home mom.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

tjinaz said:


> Newsom just ordered all teachers to get vaccine or weekly tests.  See how this sits with the teachers union.  Will it be "follow the science" or "my body my choice"?  Don't think the Teachers union likes to be told to do anything .. by anyone.


SF union signed onto that exact clause yesterday.

Probably a sign of the region more than a sign of the occupation.  In SF, the 85% who are vaccinated outvoted the ones who refused the vaccine.  Probably did not want to be in the staff room with them.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> SF union signed onto that exact clause yesterday.
> 
> Probably a sign of the region more than a sign of the occupation.  In SF, the 85% who are vaccinated outvoted the ones who refused the vaccine.  Probably did not want to be in the staff room with them.


I have a question and I raise my hand.  Dad, for those who wish to not inject experimental spike protein, would it be possible for those to take a voucher and go somewhere else?


----------



## watfly

tjinaz said:


> Newsom just ordered all teachers to get vaccine or weekly tests.  See how this sits with the teachers union.  Will it be "follow the science" or "my body my choice"?  Don't think the Teachers union likes to be told to do anything .. by anyone.


My son's district at least has a shred of common sense.  Kudo's to him for not being a victim of group think.

_Cajon Valley Union Superintendent David Miyashiro said his district, which has been open for 14 months and has not had any cases of in-school transmission between students, has already proven it can be safe without additional rules from the state. About 80 percent of Cajon Valley staff are fully vaccinated, he said.

“Adding additional mandates and mitigation strategies to a system that is already working safely doesn’t make any sense at all,” he said. “It just adds useless politics and additional pressure on those doing the heavy lifting in serving our community.”
_


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My son's district at least has a shred of common sense.  Kudo's to him for not being a victim of group think.
> 
> _Cajon Valley Union* Superintendent David Miyashiro *said his district, which has been open for 14 months and has not had any cases of in-school transmission between students, has already proven it can be safe without additional rules from the state. About 80 percent of Cajon Valley staff are fully vaccinated, he said.
> 
> “Adding additional mandates and mitigation strategies to a system that is already working safely doesn’t make any sense at all,” he said. “It just adds useless politics and additional pressure on those doing the heavy lifting in serving our community.”_


What a stud Superintendent.  Now that is common sense and using facts over politics.  The one who uses politics over facts are monsters because they cheat, that's why no common sense award.  Cheaters make no sense when they get caught and spot light is on them, like in depositions.  The good guys are still dealing with those at the top.  They will deal with these under links later.  I'm super happy for your son btw.  No reason to put pressure on these kids unless your using them as a shield or pawn in your evil game of "do as I say but not as I do."


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> My son's district at least has a shred of common sense.  Kudo's to him for not being a victim of group think.
> 
> _Cajon Valley Union Superintendent David Miyashiro said his district, which has been open for 14 months and has not had any cases of in-school transmission between students, has already proven it can be safe without additional rules from the state. About 80 percent of Cajon Valley staff are fully vaccinated, he said.
> 
> “Adding additional mandates and mitigation strategies to a system that is already working safely doesn’t make any sense at all,” he said. “It just adds useless politics and additional pressure on those doing the heavy lifting in serving our community.”_


East County groupthink is an issue of its own.  The Congressional District that overlays it is s independent that they just replaced one crook with another.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> East County groupthink is an issue of its own.  The Congressional District that overlays it is s independent that they just replaced one crook with another.


Link?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> East County groupthink is an issue of its own.


Yep. We're not as elite as North county where they know what's best for everyone else. In East county we only know what's best for ourselves.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yep. We're not as elite as North county where they know what's best for everyone else. In East county we only know what's best for ourselves.


Why did you chop off the example?

Just for clarification -- I live in Harbison Canyon.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Probably did not want to be in the staff room with them.


If they actually looked at the data they would be fine being in the room with them. 

I thought educators would know and look at the data vs not being rational.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Why did you chop off the example?
> 
> Just for clarification -- I live in Harbison Canyon.


My bad.  I assumed you were from Poway based on all your comments.  You know, speaking of crooks, Poway where they elected a school superintendent that was charged  with a handful of felonies for stealing from the district.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> My bad.  I assumed you were from Poway based on all your comments.  You know, speaking of crooks, Poway where they elected a school superintendent that was charged  with a handful of felonies for stealing from the district.


Poway school district (which covers much more than Poway) has had an unusual history.  When I first moved to Poway in 1976, one of the selling points was the excellent schools.  A few years later, the School Board fired the Superintendent when multiple women working in the District offices complained about his sexual harassment habits and their lawsuit settlements were costing the district big money.

The one hired after that seemed to have a clean slate, but he resigned after a couple of years and died soon after.  I never found out if his health was the reason for his sudden resignation.

The one after that was a real kicker -- he had been the Deputy Superintendent in charge of the construction and upgrades being paid for by a big bond issue -- until he ran out of money.  He managed to convince the School Board and the voters to go along with a second bond issue, structured so that there would be no payments made on the new bonds until the first bond issue was paid off -- but the interest on the second issue would continue to accrue meanwhile.  Perhaps you can figure out how that became known as the billion-dollar bond?  In spite of that, the board did not fire him until it was clear that he was cheating on his expense account.  In case you missed the [point -- when the Board found out he was a crook, they fired him (two times).  

Nowadays when I drive up or down Harbison Canyon Road I am rarely out of sight of a t flag or lawn sign -- even to this day.  As for the Congressman I mentioned -- one of his campaign signs is still standing next to I-8 east of El Cajon (despite laws require such signs to be removed within a reasonable period after election day) proclaiming without apparent embarrassment to be a "Trump Conservative".  

Now that's groupthink.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My bad.  I assumed you were from Poway based on all your comments.  You know, speaking of crooks, Poway where they elected a school superintendent that was charged  with a handful of felonies for stealing from the district.


I thought poorespola was from Poway as well?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Poway school district (which covers much more than Poway) has had an unusual history.  When I first moved to Poway in 1976, one of the selling points was the excellent schools.  A few years later, the School Board fired the Superintendent when multiple women working in the District offices complained about his sexual harassment habits and their lawsuit settlements were costing the district big money.
> 
> The one hired after that seemed to have a clean slate, but he resigned after a couple of years and died soon after.  I never found out if his health was the reason for his sudden resignation.
> 
> The one after that was a real kicker -- he had been the Deputy Superintendent in charge of the construction and upgrades being paid for by a big bond issue -- until he ran out of money.  He managed to convince the School Board and the voters to go along with a second bond issue, structured so that there would be no payments made on the new bonds until the first bond issue was paid off -- but the interest on the second issue would continue to accrue meanwhile.  Perhaps you can figure out how that became known as the billion-dollar bond?  In spite of that, the board did not fire him until it was clear that he was cheating on his expense account.  In case you missed the [point -- when the Board found out he was a crook, they fired him (two times).
> 
> Nowadays when I drive up or down Harbison Canyon Road I am rarely out of sight of a t flag or lawn sign -- even to this day.  As for the Congressman I mentioned -- one of his campaign signs is still standing next to I-8 east of El Cajon (despite laws require such signs to be removed within a reasonable period after election day) proclaiming without apparent embarrassment to be a "Trump Conservative".
> 
> Now that's groupthink.


I wouldn't hesitate to live in Poway BTW, I was just yanking your chain.  Wow, one DI sign and that's evidence of group think?  Talk about a victim of monolithic thinking.  Geez I think I saw more Filner signs after he was forced out of office, if I saw two Filner signs the whole community must have been brainwashed.

Whether BF, DHJR or DI are POS (BF DH for sure and DI maybe) is irrelevant to our superintendents well reasoned decision based on the data for his district.  Kudos again to him.  Common sense, not groupthink.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Statistically inevitable.


How insightful.  Please post each death cert when you get them.  To check your stats.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> View attachment 11374


Probably because natural immune systems once optional, a couple thousand years ago, are now mandated.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Many won't like the posthumous mockery, but it is mostly fair.
> 
> The anti-vax crusaders were quite content to put other people at risk by undermining public health measures.  It's no shock that some of that damage fell on the people who caused it.


People caused it?  Go on.


----------



## crush

Bruddah, look what Arnie thinks about your freedom.  You do know WHO his papa was, right?

Ramble









						COVID - Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Dorian Yates
					

Arnold Schwarzenegger and Dorian Yates share their opinions on COVID.  Source: Youtube: Dr. Robert Stevens Apr 10, 2020 Dorian Yates, Testosterone & TRT at The Men's Health Clinic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH5MBKnXUaE  Instagram: Doria…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*Deadly Lambda variant could be neutralizing vaccines, new study says*


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> People caused it?  Go on.


Yes.  Unvaccinated, unmasked people are causing the current hospital bed shortage in the southeast.

And some of those unvaccinated, unmasked people made that decision because of internet misinformation, such as that which you copy and paste here.

Take a look at your graph.  Why are there no data points in the top right quarter?  You'd expect 12-13 dots.  There are zero.  p <0.001.  that's not chance.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *Unvaccinated, unmasked people are causing the current hospital bed shortage in the southeast.
> unvaccinated, unmasked people made that decision because of internet misinformation*


Link please


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Unvaccinated, unmasked people are causing the current hospital bed shortage in the southeast.
> 
> And some of those unvaccinated, unmasked people made that decision because of internet misinformation, such as that which you copy and paste here.
> 
> Take a look at your graph.  Why are there no data points in the top right quarter?  You'd expect 12-13 dots.  There are zero.  p <0.001.  that's not chance.


You're wasting your time.  Izzy only does math when he can copy someone else's work.


----------



## crush

My wife just told me one of her friends husband took the jab and now has blood clots in leg and lungs.  I am not making this up.  He's in the hospital. Pray for Gary from Murrieta Valley Hospital.  My pal is doing better from the clot scare.  However, he has to have blood thinner with his diet each day.  He has no idea how long too.  This dude is super healthy and Mountain Bikes all the time.  So frustrating to have others like Dad make up stories and blame folks like me.  A true piece of work he is.  Look how the Terminator is acting today.  Dude is losing it and is not a free man at all. Take the Vaccine you Schmuck he says.  I hear that is a real bad word and worse then being called a moron.  I was called a drunk driver too.  He probably learned it from his old man.  

*The Terminator's Papi *


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why are there no data points in the top right quarter?  You'd expect 12-13 dots.  There are zero.  p <0.001.  that's not chance.


Nope it's not.  Neither is the 17 dots in the bottom left that represent lower vax rates and lower hospitalization.  Lol!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You're wasting your time.  Izzy only does math when he can copy someone else's work.


That because it's fun watching you try to dispute someone else's work....Mathspola


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> Nope it's not.  Neither is the 17 dots in the bottom left that represent lower vax rates and lower hospitalization.  Lol!
> View attachment 11383


Which dot is California?


----------



## espola

Two Hawaii visitors arrested for falsifying vaccination cards, governor says
					

Two visitors to Hawaii from the United States mainland were arrested Sunday for falsifying vaccination cards, the governor posted on social media Wednesday afternoon.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Two Hawaii visitors arrested for falsifying vaccination cards, governor says
> 
> 
> Two visitors to Hawaii from the United States mainland were arrested Sunday for falsifying vaccination cards, the governor posted on social media Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Just say no!!!!


----------



## crush

Liars in charge of data is very bad for our country.  The scare news is almost over folks.  Poorespola and Dad will now have to use truth and not lies.  Soon and very soon.  Look how they lied about Fl numbers.  Just a error they say.  BS.  They got the fear & scare that they were looking for.  What a bunch of cheaters we have at the forum.


----------



## crush

Black Box Warning is now in play for the jab


----------



## crush

To all my elitist pals at the forum.  Guess who said this, "bodies in beds make money.  Period!"


----------



## crush

I'm a dad of two kids as well and care for them so much too.  I think forcing a mask on them at school and mandating jabs for kids is wrong and dangerous, moo!  

From the WH and JB.









						President Biden Reflects on Child Care and his Family
					

President Biden knows from personal experience how difficult it can be to find high-quality, affordable child care -- and he’s committed to investing in American families with the expanded Child Tax Credit, universal pre-K, and access to high-qualit…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

"Roll up your sleeve" is the new tagline.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Two Hawaii visitors arrested for falsifying vaccination cards, governor says
> 
> 
> Two visitors to Hawaii from the United States mainland were arrested Sunday for falsifying vaccination cards, the governor posted on social media Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


7-day avg. IFR of .001 is driving the law.  

The straw man is again stomping through Hawaii. A slice:


> Hawaii is bringing back a whole swath of pandemic restrictions on social gatherings and businesses in response to rising COVID-19 cases on the island.





> On Tuesday, Hawaii Gov. David Ige, a Democrat, issued an executive order limiting indoor social gatherings to 10 people, and outdoor gatherings to 25 people. Restaurants, bars, and other “social establishments”—in addition to abiding by those gathering limits—must also require patrons to be seated and masked when not actively drinking or eating. Mingling between parties is expressly prohibited.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> To all my elitist pals at the forum.  Guess who said this, "bodies in beds make money.  Period!"


Fear and ignorance makes more money.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Jay Bhattacharya, Sunetra Gupta, and Martin Kulldorff explore *“the strange neglect of natural immunity.**” *A slice:



> The COVID vaccines are a fantastic technology that, if used properly, can end the epidemic around the world. Among all medical inventions, vaccines have saved more lives than any other – except perhaps basic hygiene measures like proper sewage systems and clean drinking water. Vaccines themselves do not protect us; it is our immune system’s reaction to the vaccine that protects us. The beauty of vaccines is that we can activate our immune system against serious diseases without becoming seriously ill.





> Natural infection typically confers better and broader protection, but this comes at a cost to those who are vulnerable to severe illness and death. For those in the vulnerable group, including the elderly and those with chronic disease, it is safer to acquire future protection against the disease via vaccination than by recovering from the disease. *At the same time, it makes little sense to ignore the scientific fact that infection does confer long-lasting future protection for the millions of people who have had COVID.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Paul Dolan and Sunetra Gupta argue that lockdowns are based on “faith, not evidence.” Here’s their conclusion:


> The uncertainty surrounding Covid means that many of us will be shown to be wrong about many things. For our part, we’re quite happy to be wrong, if it then leads us in the right direction.* Sadly, we suspect that we are going to be proved right that the cure of lockdown has been much more harmful than the disease of Covid.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*“The continued obsession with infection figures encourages paranoia when vaccines have severely weakened the link between cases and deaths.”*

Prof Hayward’s comments are the latest in a succession of similar interventions from leading scientists in recent days. Oxford’s Prof Andrew Pollard is also skeptical that herd immunity can be attained. Prof Paul Hunter of Exeter, meanwhile, has suggested that we should stop just reporting Covid infection numbers and focus on those who are actually unwell because of the virus. The continued obsession with infection figures encourages paranoia when vaccines have severely weakened the link between cases, hospitalizations and deaths, and many “cases” are mild or asymptomatic. It is welcome that scientists are finally addressing what learning to live with Covid must practically entail.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Scott McKay is correct: *“Our Politicians And Bureaucrats Are Failing At Virology.**”* A slice:


> Smallpox and polio are not coronaviruses. Thus they can be eradicated with vaccination.





> This matters, because if we’re ever going to return to normal it’s going to have to be with the understanding that it’s not possible to have zero COVID cases. There will be COVID cases among the people who don’t have immunity, and it’s quite likely that as the virus continues to mutate its variants might continue to produce symptoms among people who have been vaccinated. We’re seeing a bit of that with the Delta variant, though it’s true that more than 90 percent of those currently hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated.





> Returning to normal is going to mean that future strains of COVID, which are overwhelmingly likely to be infectious but less serious or deadly, will infect people regularly like colds or influenza do.


----------



## crush

WH News.  JB is on vacation right now.  

The 97% lie!!!

This basically tells us what the push is all about.  No jab, no life as you knew it.  If you want all that life offers like a job, then you better get jabbed!!









						08/12/21: Press Briefing by White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials
					

The White House




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Jeffrey Tucker tells the tale of two Americas. A slice:



> *Covid unleashed a version of tyranny in the United States. Through a surreptitious and circuitous route, many public officials somehow managed to gain enormous power for themselves and demonstrate that all our vaunted limits on government are easily transgressed under the right conditions. Now they want to use that power to enact permanent change in this country.* Right now, people, capital, and institutions are fleeing from them to safe and freer places, which only drives the people in power to madness. They are right now plotting to shut down the free states through any means possible.





> A good example is this vaccine mandate. The Biden administration is scouring around for every means to force them on resisting states by denying federal subsidies. Citizens are caught in the middle, with those who resist the mandates feeling increasingly exhausted and demoralized. Meanwhile, the political class is also in upheaval, with the Republican Party now divided between an increasingly radical branch of anti-lockdowners and a more establishment sector that is willing to go along to get along, while fearing the anger of voters.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> WH News.  JB is on vacation right now.
> 
> The 97% lie!!!
> 
> This basically tells us what the push is all about.  No jab, no life as you knew it.  If you want all that life offers like a job, then you better get jabbed!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 08/12/21: Press Briefing by White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials
> 
> 
> The White House
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


Well this is a well timed post.  See above.


----------



## crush

Watch this on child care and what it means to help the kids so mom & dad can both work 60 hours a week each and "others" can watch our children. Look at these mask people.  









						Vice President Harris Hosts a Meeting with Businesses to Discuss Care Policies
					

Vice President Harris Hosts a Meeting with Businesses to Discuss Care Policies for Families, Businesses, and the Economy  The White House




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> *“The continued obsession with infection figures encourages paranoia when vaccines have severely weakened the link between cases and deaths.”*
> 
> Prof Hayward’s comments are the latest in a succession of similar interventions from leading scientists in recent days. Oxford’s Prof Andrew Pollard is also skeptical that herd immunity can be attained. Prof Paul Hunter of Exeter, meanwhile, has suggested that we should stop just reporting Covid infection numbers and focus on those who are actually unwell because of the virus. The continued obsession with infection figures encourages paranoia when vaccines have severely weakened the link between cases, hospitalizations and deaths, and many “cases” are mild or asymptomatic. It is welcome that scientists are finally addressing what learning to live with Covid must practically entail.


Does anyone still believe herd immunity is possible with COVID? It appears to mutate rather easily.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Bruddah IZ

And here’s Martin Kulldorff:
The doubt/denial of immunity after prior COVID disease, and the resulting vaccine passports/mandates, is gravely damaging the confidence in both public health authorities and vaccines.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*The future of going out to dinner for two*​
The Jabbers: Table for two please

Eat Place: Sure, can I get a name

The jabbers: Jesse

Eat Place: Great, do you and your guest have their vaccination cards?

The Jabbers: We do.  Can you tell us who are server will be?

Eat Place: Um, let me check.  Looks like Brad will be your server

Jabbers: Great, I would like to see his vaccination papers as well please

Eat Place: Um

Jabbers: Plus, can you please provide proof that Brad has no HIV, Hepatitis A or B or any communicable diseases

Eat Place: Um

The Jabbers: Also, we would also prefer not to be served by someone who uses recreational drugs such as cocaine, Mari Jane, meth, fentanyl, ect so if you could also show us Brad's most resent tox screen that would be great

Eat Place: Let me get the manager

The Jabbers:  That would be great 

The Non-Jabbers last night.....lol


----------



## Desert Hound

This article is a classic example of how the press feeds the fear and paranoia in many.

It really is irresponsible. Bad journalism.

As we look at some of the quotes from the article...lets keep this in mind.

72 million people17 and under. Roughly 350 deaths in this group since covid began. Remember that as you read the following panic porn.

_"The timing of the latest COVID-19 surge *isn’t great for children*. Millions have already started the school year, the rest will do so in the coming weeks, and COVID-19 *vaccines aren’t yet available* for the 50 million Americans who haven’t reached their 12th birthday."_

Remember...millions went to school last year when there wasn't a vaccine for anyone. What happened to the kids? Nothing. There was a lot of panic porn regarding that.

_"Vaccine availability will not bring this pediatric outbreak to a halt. But it will help curb the spread of the virus for everyone, and give many families a better sense of how to plan for the future. To that end, *as we hurtle toward the fall*, parents, teachers, and pediatricians *are eager to know when, exactly, the youngest Americans will have a shot at getting a shot.*"_

Why exactly are we EAGER? What exactly is the risk we are worried about?

_"Critics of the agency, including the leadership of the American Academy of Pediatrics, argue that this demand for more participants will make the authorization process drag on for longer than necessary, *prolonging the harm caused to kids by not offering them the vaccines*."_

Remind me again. What is the harm kids have been experiencing so far?

_"Vaccines for the under-12s simply *aren’t going to eliminate the anxiety* around the back-to-school season."_

Emphasizing FEAR again. Not once in the article does the writer point out actual data showing kids have essentially ZERO RISK.

_"In the meantime, the *strategies we’ve learned to use throughout the pandemic will keep kids safer.* "_

No the strategies didn't make a difference. Kids are safe.

It is articles like this one that keep a substantial portion of the population in a state of fear. Devoid of data, but full of scare quotes and words.









						Why Is It Taking So Long to Get Vaccines for Kids?
					

A few things still need to happen before the shots can be authorized for Americans younger than 12.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> This article is a classic example of how the press feeds the fear and paranoia in many.
> 
> It really is irresponsible. Bad journalism.
> 
> As we look at some of the quotes from the article...lets keep this in mind.
> 
> 72 million people17 and under. Roughly 350 deaths in this group since covid began. Remember that as you read the following panic porn.
> 
> _"The timing of the latest COVID-19 surge *isn’t great for children*. Millions have already started the school year, the rest will do so in the coming weeks, and COVID-19 *vaccines aren’t yet available* for the 50 million Americans who haven’t reached their 12th birthday."_
> 
> Remember...millions went to school last year when there wasn't a vaccine for anyone. What happened to the kids? Nothing. There was a lot of panic porn regarding that.
> 
> _"Vaccine availability will not bring this pediatric outbreak to a halt. But it will help curb the spread of the virus for everyone, and give many families a better sense of how to plan for the future. To that end, *as we hurtle toward the fall*, parents, teachers, and pediatricians *are eager to know when, exactly, the youngest Americans will have a shot at getting a shot.*"_
> 
> Why exactly are we EAGER? What exactly is the risk we are worried about?
> 
> _"Critics of the agency, including the leadership of the American Academy of Pediatrics, argue that this demand for more participants will make the authorization process drag on for longer than necessary, *prolonging the harm caused to kids by not offering them the vaccines*."_
> 
> Remind me again. What is the harm kids have been experiencing so far?
> 
> _"Vaccines for the under-12s simply *aren’t going to eliminate the anxiety* around the back-to-school season."_
> 
> Emphasizing FEAR again. Not once in the article does the writer point out actual data showing kids have essentially ZERO RISK.
> 
> _"In the meantime, the *strategies we’ve learned to use throughout the pandemic will keep kids safer.* "_
> 
> No the strategies didn't make a difference. Kids are safe.
> 
> It is articles like this one that keep a substantial portion of the population in a state of fear. Devoid of data, but full of scare quotes and words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Is It Taking So Long to Get Vaccines for Kids?
> 
> 
> A few things still need to happen before the shots can be authorized for Americans younger than 12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


It's one big propaganda tour.  They say, "jump" and they jump.  They say, "jab" and they roll up their sleeves.  They say, "mask" and they obey and wear a mask.  They say, "jab or no job to pay for bills." and they jab.  It's 100% a cult bro.  I've never seen anything like it.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> Scott McKay is correct: *“Our Politicians And Bureaucrats Are Failing At Virology.**”* A slice:


Alas, polio has not been eradicated.  While medicine has come a long way and great vaccines against polio have existed for a while, cases do still arise in various places around the world.  Politics, access, and mistrust of either vaccines or those giving the vaccines are all issues that have prevented the world from reaching the eradication goal.  The history of polio vaccines is interesting, and includes a connection to soccer.  https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/09/fogotten-story-jeff-hall-death-polio-birmingham-city


(This virus is not respiratory, but rather a GI tract virus. This means the mode of transmission is different from respiratory viruses   It is in the picornavirus family, and has a small single stranded RNA genome, which is covered only by a protein shell.)


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Alas, polio has not been eradicated.  While medicine has come a long way and great vaccines against polio have existed for a while, cases do still arise in various places around the world.  Politics, access, and mistrust of either vaccines or those giving the vaccines are all issues that have prevented the world from reaching the eradication goal.  The history of polio vaccines is interesting, and includes a connection to soccer.  https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/09/fogotten-story-jeff-hall-death-polio-birmingham-city
> 
> 
> (This virus is not respiratory, but rather a GI tract virus. This means the mode of transmission is different from respiratory viruses   It is in the picornavirus family, and has a small single stranded RNA genome, which is covered only by a protein shell.)


Can you do me a big favor?  I have no idea what your saying and I'm lost with how you write.  I need you to dumb this down for me and use some examples.  Talk to me like I'm in 8th grade and just need to know if I should allow my kids to take the jab.  I'm not taking it but I would love to hear why it's so important for my healthy dd to get jabbed.  Thanks.  Also, non-vax kids be allowed to play sports against the jabbed kids or no jab no play? Honest debate type of question.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Can you do me a big favor?  I have no idea what your saying and I'm lost with how you write.  I need you to dumb this down for me and use some examples.  Talk to me like I'm in 8th grade and just need to know if I should allow my kids to take the jab.  I'm not taking it but I would love to hear why it's so important for my healthy dd to get jabbed.  Thanks.  Also, non-vax kids be allowed to play sports against the jabbed kids or no jab no play? Honest debate type of question.


What I am saying is that it is really difficult to completely get rid of viruses from the world.  Having vaccines is really helpful because they help to limit the available hosts for the virus. If the virus cannot find hosts to infect, it will die out.  Natural immunity is also helpful in helping to limit the ability of viruses to spread, but not necessarily a great way to gain immunity because you would be experiencing whatever the impact of the virus is on your system in the process. In the case of polio, most people who are infected experience symptoms like a stomach flu. But, for some people, the virus gets into their spine and the consequences can be quite serious.  People chose the polio vaccine so they don't have to gamble on the outcome of an infection.  The polio vaccines have been around a long time now, so it can feel more familiar and understood.

For your specific question, I do think that it is advisable for teens to get the vaccine.  She should talk to her pediatrician.  If she's up for it, journals like Science have a lot of information on covid that is freely available.  There's a lot we don't know about yet with respect to the long term impacts of surviving covid, but there's certainly information out there that makes me not want to gamble if it isn't necessary.  

My son wanted to be vaccinated as soon as it was approved for his age, and we supported his decision. (My daughter is too young.)  His pediatrician reached out to recommend he make an appointment for the vaccine.  He was nervous, but did well and he feels like he has a lot more freedom to enjoy socializing without worrying about the virus.  One of his friends became orphaned due to covid last year; all of that friend group got vaccinated within a week of it becoming available.  (No, the dad was quite active, healthy, and no preexisting conditions.)


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> *One of his friends became orphaned due to covid last year; all of that friend group got vaccinated within a week of it becoming available.  (No, the dad was quite active, healthy, and no preexisting conditions.)*


A little better, thanks.  You call it a vaccine and others say is a spike protein that attacks the blood cells and makes them inflame somehow.  Do you think the blood clot scare is real or make up stuff?  I know of three people ((one personal, two my wife knows the wives) and all three have blood clots and all three on blood thinner.  Orphaaned is interesting choice of words to use Roadroader.  How old was your son's friend when his father passed away last year because of Covid?  Btw, super sad to hear.  This is the first I've heard on the forum of someone super healthy who died directly from the flu.  Mom already passed away too?


----------



## crush

Another question I have.  Please be honest friends of the forum.  Former President Obama had bday bash and no mask.  That is 100% fact, correct?  Anyone dispute that?  Weed was also passed out as goodie bags, right?  So the news is out that 63 came down with Covid.  They said nearly all the guest got jabbed before they showed to the big ragger.  Everyone got tested before showing up as well they said and no was allowed in with a fever.  This is about 10% of the peeps just got sick.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Another question I have.  Please be honest friends of the forum.  Former President Obama had bday bash and no mask.  That is 100% fact, correct?  Anyone dispute that?  Weed was also passed out as goodie bags, right?  So the news is out that 63 came down with Covid.  They said nearly all the guest got jabbed before they showed to the big ragger.  Everyone got tested before showing up as well they said and no was allowed in with a fever.  This is about 10% of the peeps just got sick.


74 cases on the island- not 74 cases at the party.  contact tracing data are not available yet, so we cant say how many are from the party.  We find out Monday or Tuesday.   Some, but not all, of the cases will end up linked to Obama’s party, or people who travelled for the party.

I dont care about the weed.  But holding that size of event was incredibly selfish.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Alas, polio has not been eradicated.  While medicine has come a long way and great vaccines against polio have existed for a while, cases do still arise in various places around the world.  Politics, access, and mistrust of either vaccines or those giving the vaccines are all issues that have prevented the world from reaching the eradication goal.  The history of polio vaccines is interesting, and includes a connection to soccer.  https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/09/fogotten-story-jeff-hall-death-polio-birmingham-city
> 
> 
> (This virus is not respiratory, but rather a GI tract virus. This means the mode of transmission is different from respiratory viruses   It is in the picornavirus family, and has a small single stranded RNA genome, which is covered only by a protein shell.)


We haven’t eliminated polio which: a. The vaccine has been around forever and there’s enough for the world, b. Is relatively more stable and structurally less complex, c. Is not respiratory, and d. Doesn’t have a large zoonotic host reservoir while covid is in bats, various cats, ferrets, mink, some monkeys, apes and now possibly dogs and some reports of even rats (if it crosses to rats “a bat without wings” we ain’t ever getting rid of it).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 74 cases on the island- not 74 cases at the party.  contact tracing data are not available yet, so we cant say how many are from the party.  We find out Monday or Tuesday.   Some, but not all, of the cases will end up linked to Obama’s party, or people who travelled for the party.
> 
> I dont care about the weed.  But holding that size of event was incredibly selfish.


But they were vaccinated and sophisticated.  Not like those dirty bikers in South Dakota.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> 74 cases on the island- not 74 cases at the party.  contact tracing data are not available yet, so we cant say how many are from the party.  We find out Monday or Tuesday.   Some, but not all, of the cases will end up linked to Obama’s party, or people who travelled for the party.
> 
> I dont care about the weed.  But holding that size of event was incredibly selfish.


Who gets blamed for the super spreader?  I dont see it as selfish at all.  I see it as being forth coming and up front and honest about the truth.  The fact is Dad, nothing to be alarmed by.  They had no mask because no mask was needed, MOO!


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> We haven’t eliminated polio which: a. The vaccine has been around forever and there’s enough for the world, b. Is relatively more stable and structurally less complex, c. Is not respiratory, and d. Doesn’t have a large zoonotic host reservoir while covid is in bats, various cats, ferrets, mink, some monkeys, apes and now possibly dogs and some reports of even rats (if it crosses to rats “a bat without wings” we ain’t ever getting rid of it).


Oh my.  I got a ride to pick up my truck from a neighbor just a few minutes ago.  Dude was on crutches.  He got jabbed two months ago and pulled his calf.  I asked how and he said playing tennis.  He said he was just going to pick up the ball and he said he felt like someone kicked him in the back of the calf. He went to the Doc and their keeping an eye on him.  He's only 40 something and in great shape.  I didnt want to scare him so I just told about the blood clots going around after 2nd jab.  He said thanks for the tip and he see's the Doc Monday.  I asked him what happen to the flu and he said it went away because of the mask.  BTW Grace, everyone is back wearing mask again.  My family and I just bought a fresh box and will just wear them to keep everyone happy.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Does anyone still believe herd immunity is possible with COVID? It appears to mutate rather easily.


Most likely outcome is as in the article I posted in bad news thread it hits an equilibrium point where some people (like flu rsv adenovirus and even rino and noro virus) die from it each year, mostly people who would have died relatively shortly from something else (whether flu or heart attack or cancer).   There are some nightmare outcomes in the mix too but unlikely. The only question is when we hit that point and how many people are taken down along the way (a trade off between fewer mostly unvaccinated but restrictions for years v more mostly unvaccinated but a quicker exit)

if the az Really is only 20-40% effective against delta symptoms and Pfizer only 40-60%, australia and mew Zealand are in for at least another year of fortressing and then some butt hurt when they exit.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Most likely outcome is as in the article I posted in bad news thread it hits an equilibrium point where some people (like flu rsv adenovirus and even rino and noro virus) die from it each year, mostly people who would have died relatively shortly from something else (whether flu or heart attack or cancer).   There are some nightmare outcomes in the mix too but unlikely. The only question is when we hit that point and how many people are taken down along the way (a trade off between fewer mostly unvaccinated but restrictions for years v more mostly unvaccinated but a quicker exit)
> 
> if the az Really is only 20-40% effective against delta symptoms and Pfizer only 40-60%, australia and mew Zealand are in for at least another year of fortressing and then some butt hurt when they exit.


"With the BNT162b2 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 93.7% (95% CI, 91.6 to 95.3) among persons with the alpha variant and 88.0% (95% CI, 85.3 to 90.1) among those with the delta variant. With the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 74.5% (95% CI, 68.4 to 79.4) among persons with the alpha variant and 67.0% (95% CI, 61.3 to 71.8) among those with the delta variant."









						Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant | NEJM
					

Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant



					www.nejm.org


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "With the BNT162b2 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 93.7% (95% CI, 91.6 to 95.3) among persons with the alpha variant and 88.0% (95% CI, 85.3 to 90.1) among those with the delta variant. With the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 74.5% (95% CI, 68.4 to 79.4) among persons with the alpha variant and 67.0% (95% CI, 61.3 to 71.8) among those with the delta variant."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant
> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org


This would be very good news!  But unfortunately it belies the number of breakthrough cases being reported.  Anecdotally from the own situation I have data from (4/9 breakthrough cases at a mostly masked outdoor bbq) and from what’s happening in Iceland this is unlikely to hold up.  They nod to the contra data out of Qatar and I didn’t see references to either the uk or Israeli pre print data which also has it lower.  But fingers crossed it does hold up.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This would be very good news!  But unfortunately it belies the number of breakthrough cases being reported.  Anecdotally from the own situation I have data from (4/9 breakthrough cases at a mostly masked outdoor bbq) and from what’s happening in Iceland this is unlikely to hold up.  They nod to the contra data out of Qatar and I didn’t see references to either the uk or Israeli pre print data which also has it lower.  But fingers crossed it does hold up.


Did you submit that to New England Journal of Anecdotes?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Did you submit that to New England Journal of Anecdotes?


Well if the nejm is correct, that anecdote shouldn’t have happened. But as I said I would be really thrilled to be wrong about this.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> But they were vaccinated and sophisticated.  Not like those dirty bikers in South Dakota.


Not at all like the bikers.  

People at the Obama event were much more highly connected.  And more likely to think they are too important to waste 14 days in quarantine.  

A reasonable biker will curse their luck and spend the 14 days watching tv or fixing up their bike.


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> We haven’t eliminated polio which: a. The vaccine has been around forever and there’s enough for the world, b. Is relatively more stable and structurally less complex, c. Is not respiratory, and d. Doesn’t have a large zoonotic host reservoir while covid is in bats, various cats, ferrets, mink, some monkeys, apes and now possibly dogs and some reports of even rats (if it crosses to rats “a bat without wings” we ain’t ever getting rid of it).


We've only eliminated smallpox, because of the vaccine.  My point was that we/humanity should have been able to also eliminate polio, but, despite having great tools, we haven't.  Yes, there should be plenty of polio vaccine for the world, but the point is that not everyone is vaccinated.  Just as there are people on this forum who do not want the sars-cov2 vaccine, one contributing factor for the continued presence of polio is that there are people who chose not to get the polio vaccine.  Outbreaks of polio do still happen in these unvaccinated populations.  

Personally, I would prefer it if people had an attitude that they wanted to try to contain infectious viruses rather than take the approach that since we won't completely get rid of it, let's not bother trying.  Maybe telling oneself the problem is too big or the solutions are imperfect is just one way to feel ok about rationalizing a choice not to try.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> We've only eliminated smallpox, because of the vaccine.  My point was that we/humanity should have been able to also eliminate polio, but, despite having great tools, we haven't.  Yes, there should be plenty of polio vaccine for the world, but the point is that not everyone is vaccinated.  Just as there are people on this forum who do not want the sars-cov2 vaccine, one contributing factor for the continued presence of polio is that there are people who chose not to get the polio vaccine.  Outbreaks of polio do still happen in these unvaccinated populations.
> 
> Personally, I would prefer it if people had an attitude that they wanted to try to contain infectious viruses rather than take the approach that since we won't completely get rid of it, let's not bother trying.  Maybe telling oneself the problem is too big or the solutions are imperfect is just one way to feel ok about rationalizing a choice not to try.


No it’s a way of looking at the reality of the situation and making realistic policy decisions and choices instead of just wishing and hoping something comes true. It’s facts v feelings. It’s making policy in the assumption people are varied (angels and devils) instead of just angels. It’s being an adult and having an adult perspective v looking at this like a child would. Looking at policy idealistically has been responsible for some of the worst mistakes nations have made because things don’t always work that way: the Crusades, the French Revolution, the Soviet revolution, prohibition, the Vietnam war, or the fall of Afghanistan. History is littered with the ruins of this type of thinking, which has tended to work only in high money spending, victimless situations: “we choose to go to the moon and do these things”.  For those on the left here’s another one that will wind up in the dust heap of bad progressive ideas (which is an endless source of these types of bad thinking): the entire recall process or (if you like pork in California) the direct initiative progressive reforms.

btw smallpox is the same: highly stable with no zoonotic source which is not this. And btw the entire “let’s try” approach would be premised on this having been man made in a lab without a zoonotic origin.


----------



## crush

To The Obvious One: From Captain Obvious.
Personally, I would prefer people to not live in fear 24/7.  The fact is were all dying.  I have never seen so many freaked out and scared people.  LeBron had two mask on yesterday in Vegas. The flu never left us and guess what folks, it ain't going away either.  Take the flu shot and you will get the flu. Take the jabs and you get "Spike" with all sorts of mixes and causing people to get sicker and some are dying.  Nurses are starting to come out with the truth folks.  Dont you dare let them say the only one's dying and going to ER with blood clots and heart issues are the non-vax.  DR. F 100% injected pooches with poison.  The pooch was then killed and then used their sweet little organ and tissue to make vaccines.  Not saying the stuff you all are taking today is this type of experiment.  However, it is an experiment and you and everyone else WHO take and will continue to take jab are the subjects.  The animals they used before humans are now dead.  The scientist already was using human baby parts, bat shit and rat body parts.  I dont know what Spike is truly made of but the one's WHO already got two jabs and preach like you Roadrunner can;t wait for round #3 and all the other shots.  This stuff goes right into your blood and then into your brain and heart.  You guys are 100% sold out, hooked, addicted, committed and their is no way I or anyone can change your mind.  I think most folks seem to think that a healthy family like my family would get a "choice" to say, "ya or nay."  That's the big rub.  Plus being called a terrorist, drunk driver and a Schmuck is red line for me.  No jab, no job is a double red line.  Do you think I will bend over, roll up my sleeve for the team and then kneel in submission?  Watch Outlander bro.  I will never and I mean never allow another Randall to roam free to rape and kill everyone.  Plus tax the shit out of everybody.  This is the final war.  I play this Braveheart stuff all the time to fire me up.  I'm Scottish Highlander Kirk ready to deal with Elitism once and for all.  I'm hated, labelled and now have no way to buy & sell all because I won't submit to an experiment.  WTFDUTUR?  You folks HATE me and others like me because you think we support t or some of things t supports like eradicating human trafficking and killing babies.  No jab, no freedom and try and survive is one way to go for freedom or take as many jabs as we say and STFU is the other choice of freedom.  Two freedoms to choose and that is it.  George Soros sold out all his neighbors & friends from school when he was 14 and called himself a Christian to hide from the cops.  That is one faith I would not do that with, moo!  The truth was his parents were Elitist snobs and they wanted to make even more money on the war.  The fact was little Jorge was a known atheist and sell out.  Dude smiles when people suffer and he only cares about money and not social parts of life.  He, Bill, Klaus, Rock family, Rot family, The Arnold, all the other families and probably Lucifer himself all get together each week to see how they can get us humans to fight each other.  You guys have been assholes since 2016 when HRC lost. You see, I hate the things you stand for.  Killing 80,000,000 babies that we know of is insane.  I know it's way more than that.  Plus all the other shit!!  I swear, you types will never change.  Talk about all in.  I was hoping people like you, Husker poorespola, EOTL, Messy and the rest would show more kindness but nope, you're all the same Tin Man with no heart.  I guess we can't live together.  One side is scared and full of fear and getting more scared each day.  I would like some time to move away from you folks and make a peaceful deal for some land.


----------



## crush

I told everyone three years ago that the Elitist own us & soccer.  I have good friends who love being owned.  They think they retire in happiness.  It's the biggest lie ever.  It's time to change the earth you guys unless you like being controlled by the Elitist who make money in war and more war.  They create division through brainwashing and lies and then cause war.  Look at the Middle East.  20 years of war.  I have really good friends who sacrificed their time with their family to help others and now look at the mess.  It's not to late to pick real freedom you guys and freedom should be free


----------



## crush

I'm going to go pray, sing and meditate on how I can help bring peace in a very troubled world of total control freaks.  I sure in the hell dont want to go looking for trouble with them Proud Boys and Antifa.  I say let's get a PPV set up and let these folks battle it out with skate boards, water coolers, helmets and their fist.  These people are angry, like past 6 on a scale of 0-10.  My wife is a 0-1.  I can get to a 6 but rarely.  These people want a war and most of the people I know want peace.  I will use my mouth instead from the comfort of my place.  I feel safe.  My neighbors are all super cool.  Vax or no vax, mask or no mask, we love each other and that makes me feel safe   Peace out Roadrunner, I'll catch you later dude....lol!


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> But they were vaccinated and sophisticated.  Not like those dirty bikers in South Dakota.











						Most vaccine-hesitant group is those with PhDs, research shows | The College Fix
					

Most skeptical and least likely to change their minds, findings reveal.




					www.thecollegefix.com


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> And btw the entire “let’s try” approach would be premised on this having been man made in a lab without a zoonotic origin.


Grace I don't follow your logic.  Obviously some viruses will be easier, relatively speaking, than others to eradicate or to control for a large variety of reasons.  Why would we pick and choose which viruses (or other problems) to try to contain based on what might be the source for the start of an outbreak (or epidemic or pandemic)?  This just doesn't make sense.  (In the case of some cancers knowing the origin/genetic changes can help design interventions.)  To step outside medicine, if my house is on fire, I don't stop to investigate whether arson is the cause before I try to put the fire out as quickly as possible.

I do agree that individuals feelings and experiences certainly shape their choices and responses to situations.  The fact is that SARS-CoV2 is a real virus that is not benign at all for many people. It is what it is and it doesn't care how anyone feels, and it will happily infect anyone with its receptors.  Ideally we could work together to use all available tools to contain outbreaks/epidemics/pandemics.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> View attachment 11405
> 
> I'm going to go pray, sing and meditate on how I can help bring peace in a very troubled world of total control freaks.  I sure in the hell dont want to go looking for trouble with them Proud Boys and Antifa.  I say let's get a PPV set up and let these folks battle it out with skate boards, water coolers, helmets and their fist.  These people are angry, like past 6 on a scale of 0-10.  My wife is a 0-1.  I can get to a 6 but rarely.  These people want a war and most of the people I know want peace.  I will use my mouth instead from the comfort of my place.  I feel safe.  My neighbors are all super cool.  Vax or no vax, mask or no mask, we love each other and that makes me feel safe   Peace out Roadrunner, I'll catch you later dude....lol!


These cartoons are fun.  We used to have a roadrunner at our house, along with the coyotes so I kept expecting an Acme shipment to show up.   Maybe Acme was bought out by Amazon...


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> No it’s a way of looking at the reality of the situation and making realistic policy decisions and choices instead of just wishing and hoping something comes true. It’s facts v feelings. It’s making policy in the assumption people are varied (angels and devils) instead of just angels. It’s being an adult and having an adult perspective v looking at this like a child would. Looking at policy idealistically has been responsible for some of the worst mistakes nations have made because things don’t always work that way: the Crusades, the French Revolution, the Soviet revolution, prohibition, the Vietnam war, or the fall of Afghanistan. History is littered with the ruins of this type of thinking, which has tended to work only in high money spending, victimless situations: “we choose to go to the moon and do these things”.  For those on the left here’s another one that will wind up in the dust heap of bad progressive ideas (which is an endless source of these types of bad thinking): the entire recall processor (if you like pork in California) the direct initiative progressive reforms.


"Idealistically" is a word that gives too much credit for the thought process you describe. It's righteous zealotry. I am so "right" that others need to be forced to do things my way if they don't do it voluntarily. As your examples show, human history is littered with it.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Most vaccine-hesitant group is those with PhDs, research shows | The College Fix
> 
> 
> Most skeptical and least likely to change their minds, findings reveal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecollegefix.com


If you look at the actual study Chart B, the differences in vaccine hesitancy depending on levels of education seem to be split into two intertwined clusters: High School or Less, Some College, and PhD in one group, and Four-Year College Degree, Master's, and Professional Degree in the other, with the first group about twice as hesitant as the second.   The term "Professional Degree" includes medical professionals (doctors, nurses, dentists, veterinarians, and the like), lawyers, and licensed engineers.  

A more stark division can be seen in Chart D, which shows the vaccine hesitance rate divided according to the proportion of t support in the last election in the county in which the respondents lived.  To put it simply, the higher the local t support, the freedumber they are.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Grace I don't follow your logic.  Obviously some viruses will be easier, relatively speaking, than others to eradicate or to control for a large variety of reasons.  Why would we pick and choose which viruses (or other problems) to try to contain based on what might be the source for the start of an outbreak (or epidemic or pandemic)?  This just doesn't make sense.  (In the case of some cancers knowing the origin/genetic changes can help design interventions.)  To step outside medicine, if my house is on fire, I don't stop to investigate whether arson is the cause before I try to put the fire out as quickly as possible.
> 
> I do agree that individuals feelings and experiences certainly shape their choices and responses to situations.  The fact is that SARS-CoV2 is a real virus that is not benign at all for many people. It is what it is and it doesn't care how anyone feels, and it will happily infect anyone with its receptors.  Ideally we could work together to use all available tools to contain outbreaks/epidemics/pandemics.


Just because you have tools doesn’t mean you use them.  Part of using reason instead of emotions is you have to do a cost benefit analysis of any npi or policy.  The issue with the health experts in this pandemic is they only looked at the benefit (saving lives/reducing infections) but not the cost (economic, societal, psychological, educational). The issue is they weren’t experts in this too and weren’t capable of doing the c b. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> 74 cases on the island- not 74 cases at the party.  contact tracing data are not available yet, so we cant say how many are from the party.  We find out Monday or Tuesday.   Some, but not all, of the cases will end up linked to Obama’s party, or people who travelled for the party.
> 
> I dont care about the weed.  But holding that size of event was incredibly selfish.


Hauoli Lahanau braddah Barry!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> But they were vaccinated and sophisticated.  Not like those dirty bikers in South Dakota.


Dirty people have strong immune systems.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Who gets blamed for the super spreader?  I dont see it as selfish at all.  I see it as being forth coming and up front and honest about the truth.  The fact is Dad, nothing to be alarmed by.  They had no mask because no mask was needed, MOO!


Dad is just selfish.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Alas, polio has not been eradicated.  While medicine has come a long way and great vaccines against polio have existed for a while, cases do still arise in various places around the world.  Politics, access, and mistrust of either vaccines or those giving the vaccines are all issues that have prevented the world from reaching the eradication goal.  The history of polio vaccines is interesting, and includes a connection to soccer.  https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/09/fogotten-story-jeff-hall-death-polio-birmingham-city
> 
> 
> (This virus is not respiratory, but rather a GI tract virus. This means the mode of transmission is different from respiratory viruses   It is in the picornavirus family, and has a small single stranded RNA genome, which is covered only by a protein shell.)


The U.S. has been polio free since 1979.  Mostly because we got our shit together, literally.  Proper sanitation and clean drinking water works wonders.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> The U.S. has been polio free since 1979.  Mostly because we got our shit together, literally.  Proper sanitation and clean drinking water works wonders.


Yes definitely, shit matters  -especially for viruses with fecal-oral transmission.  I was talking about worldwide eradication, not just the US.  After 1979 the few cases in the US either from the oral vaccine or were caught traveling abroad. It still should be an attainable goal.  We're close, but not there.  In 2019 the CDC data cite 369 children paralyzed from outbreaks.  No cure.


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> Just because you have tools doesn’t mean you use them.  Part of using reason instead of emotions is you have to do a cost benefit analysis of any npi or policy.  The issue with the health experts in this pandemic is they only looked at the benefit (saving lives/reducing infections) but not the cost (economic, societal, psychological, educational). The issue is they weren’t experts in this too and weren’t capable of doing the c b. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail.


True, a lot of people choose not to use available tools, are not able to use tools, or misapply them. There are of course situations where you pick and choose the best tools to use.  But that is different from the argument of not even trying to develop or use any tools to contain a virus, or making that decision based on a virus origin.  

There are some interesting studies on how people assess risk / benefits.  That's not my area of expertise.  Maybe if I stay at a Holiday inn express, .....  Haha.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> True, a lot of people choose not to use available tools, are not able to use tools, or misapply them. There are of course situations where you pick and choose the best tools to use.  But that is different from the argument of not even trying to develop or use any tools to contain a virus, or making that decision based on a virus origin.
> 
> There are some interesting studies on how people assess risk / benefits.  That's not my area of expertise.  Maybe if I stay at a Holiday inn express, .....  Haha.


If medical experts are going to be making these decisions, they should be extremely well versed in how to make risk benefit calculations or they should not be allowed to make the final decision and should merely input the information for someone who is qualified to do so (that someone might be an actuarial, risk advisor or attorney trained to measure such risk). 

im all for putting every tool at our disposal on the table. I believe in vaccines and think one of the great crimes has been the neglect of therapeutics. But if the tool calculation doesn’t make sense it should go off the table. Shutting the schools cost enormous damage to a vulnerable population for very little gain…Europe got it right but we didn’t. Cloth masks might have helped a little at the beginning for little cost (social, injury to small children and special need, environmental).  Cloth masks now against the delta, as oster has said, are likely useless yet still have the same cost so time to take them off the table until their utility is shown.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Yes definitely, shit matters  -especially for viruses with fecal-oral transmission.  I was talking about worldwide eradication, not just the US.  After 1979 the few cases in the US either from the oral vaccine or were caught traveling abroad. It still should be an attainable goal.  We're close, but not there.  In 2019 the CDC data cite 369 children paralyzed from outbreaks.  No cure.


Pakistan and Afghanistan I think is where the outbreaks remain.


----------



## espola

In thoughts so disorganized that they might just have been one of those waking dreams, I had an image of drones flying over crowds using some advanced technology to pick out likely covid victims by sampling and testing their pooled exhalations.  It turns out that that would have been looking in the wrong direction.



			https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-08-13/poop-the-newest-disease-detection-tool-for-covid-and-beyond
		


There is even a nice mention of UC-Merced in that article (private joke with my daughter that would take too long to explain).


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Pakistan and Afghanistan I think is where the outbreaks remain.


CNN is on the ground reporting startling news at the airpoirt.  It looks like people are getting rides on the outside of the planes as they taxi off the runway.  I dont have tv.  I pray that people are jumping off before it takes off.  CNN reporter last night said that at least the Taliban were wearing face coverings to help stop the spread of the Spike virus as they walk around with AK47s.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Poop: The Newest Disease Detection Tool for COVID-19 and Beyond Hundreds of efforts around the nation are aiming to turn waste into valuable health data. By Kaiser Health News | Aug. 13, 2021, at 11:45 a.m.

A new tool to tell us what we already know about the IFR for 0-19 year olds.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> If you look at the actual study Chart B, the differences in vaccine hesitancy depending on levels of education seem to be split into two intertwined clusters: High School or Less, Some College, and PhD in one group, and Four-Year College Degree, Master's, and Professional Degree in the other, with the first group about twice as hesitant as the second.   The term "Professional Degree" includes medical professionals (doctors, nurses, dentists, veterinarians, and the like), lawyers, and licensed engineers.
> 
> A more stark division can be seen in Chart D, which shows the vaccine hesitance rate divided according to the proportion of t support in the last election in the county in which the respondents lived.  To put it simply, the higher the local t support, the freedumber they are.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf


Apparently they are about as dumb as the PhD's.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Unmasking GMU Officials’ Covid Hypocrisy*
by DON BOUDREAUX on AUGUST 14, 2021

Here’s a letter to Todd Zywicki, a long-time friend, sometimes co-author, and colleague over in GMU’s Antonin Scalia School of Law:

Good luck in your lawsuit against GMU officials who wish to compel you – despite your earlier case of Covid-19 having given you much natural immunity against the disease – nevertheless to be vaccinated.                                                                                                                                                  *Your case has been strengthened by GMU’s newly announced requirement of indoor masking of all people including the fully vaccinated. One necessary condition for this masking requirement to pass any reasonable cost-benefit test is that vaccination be not very effective. So you can infer from this new masking policy that GMU officials are not confident in the vaccines’ effectiveness. These officials’ skepticism of the vaccines’ effectiveness has, as it were, been unmasked by their own new masking policy. And if these officials themselves doubt the vaccines’ effectiveness, they have even less business than before in insisting that you subject yourself to whatever risk might be posed to you by receiving the vaccination. *                                You (and Jenin and Jay) have likely already thought of this point that identifies the actions of GMU officials themselves as further tilting the balance of the case in your favor. But I mention it in the off-chance that you haven’t.
Again, much good luck!
Sincerely,
Don


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Anyone who has information regarding individuals or businesses in contravention of a COVID-19-related ministerial direction is urged to contact Crime Stoppers: https://nsw.crimestoppers.com.au. Information is treated in strict confidence. The public is reminded not to report crime via NSW Police social media pages.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

An Open Letter to Dr. Francis Collins by DON BOUDREAUX on AUGUST 16, 2021 in COUNTRY PROBLEMS, CURRENT AFFAIRS, DATA, MYTHS AND FALLACIES, RISK AND SAFETY, SEEN AND UNSEEN


Dr. Francis Collins, Director
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, MD

Dr. Collins:

In your interview yesterday with Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday you rightly complained that “the evidence and the basis for making decisions on facts has gotten pushed aside by politics.” But you, sir, are as guilty as anyone of politicizing this disease by distorting the presentation of facts.

Numbers – quantitative facts – are meaningful only in proper context. Yet in this same interview with Wallace you ignored this reality when you announced that “more than 400 children [in America] have died of Covid-19,” and then concluded from this ‘fact’ that “the evidence” shows that Covid poses a great risk to children.

Well.

Ignore the fact (!) that the number of “deaths involving Covid-19” in America, as of August 11th, 2021, of persons under the age of 18 is reported by the CDC as 353; let’s take 400 as the correct number of children who’ve so far died of Covid. Aren’t you, as a public-health official, ashamed that you didn’t bother to observe that 400 children deaths from Covid is a paltry 0.76 percent of the total number of children deaths in America (52,672) over the same time period? Aren’t you embarrassed that you forgot to note that, over this same time period, the number of children in America whose deaths are classified as “involving pneumonia” is 859 – that is, more than double the number whose deaths are classified as “involving Covid-19”?

Are you not mortified that you neglected to say that the number of children who are killed each year in motor-vehicle accidents is multiple times higher than is the number who’ve died since January 2020 of Covid? Do you regret forgetting to reveal that in 2019 the number of children in the U.S. who died from cancerous tumors was, at 1,060, more than 150 percent higher than is the number who have so far died of Covid? (These data are available here.) And are you not overwhelmed with remorse that you said not a word about the number of children (and adults) who’ll die unnecessarily of cancer and other non-Covid illnesses because of treatment delays sparked by disproportionate fears of Covid – disproportionate fears that you consistently stoke?

*You’re no longer promoting public health; Dr. Collins; you’re peddling panic porn – which has become a lethal collective addiction.*

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux
Professor of Economics
and
Martha and Nelson Getchell Chair for the Study of Free Market Capitalism at the Mercatus Center
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA 22030


----------



## Bruddah IZ

All Benefits Have Costs by DON BOUDREAUX on AUGUST 17, 2021

Here’s a letter to the _Wall Street Journal_:

Editor:
Today’s edition contains three letters critical of my colleague Todd Zywicki’s defense, in your pages, of his lawsuit against George Mason University’s vaccination requirement. Each letter-writer, alas, misses a point that’s central to the broader case against vaccination mandates – and, indeed, against all Covid restrictions: Because vaccination is indeed quite effective at protecting each vaccinated person against suffering serious consequences from Covid, there’s no good reason to require anyone to be vaccinated. Each individual has easy ability to acquire such a high degree of protection that we can stop tyrannizing each other in the name of fighting Covid.

*Furthermore, evidence from amply vaccinated countries, including Israel, Iceland, and the U.K., reveals that vaccination doesn’t stop disease spread. It provides a personal benefit – reduced disease severity upon infection – but little public benefit.

The predictable response is that vaccination isn’t 100 percent effective even for the vaccinated. True. But whatever additional benefits might be gained from vaccine mandates and other Covid restrictions must be weighed against the costs of these intrusions – costs that include solidifying an ominous precedent for until-now unprecedented authoritarian intrusions into Americans’ private affairs.

Contrary to each letter-writer’s supposition, establishing the case for vaccination mandates requires more than pointing out the trivial reality that an unvaccinated person might impose more risks on nonconsenting others than does a vaccinated person. Other questions must be asked and correctly answered – chief among these are ‘How much more risk?’ (answer: not much), and ‘At what cost?’ (answer: immense).*

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux
Professor of Economics
and
Martha and Nelson Getchell Chair for the Study of Free Market Capitalism at the Mercatus Center
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA 22030


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Adults sitting at home pose less risk to strangers than do adults out driving automobiles. Yet we correctly do not leap from this reality to the conclusion that therefore further restrictions are justified on adults’ freedom to drive automobiles.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## crush

No more mask mandate all because real men showed up to take a stand.  Come socal, stop being whimps!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

Mask Mandates Fail in CA's Bay Area as Coronavirus Hospitalizations Match 2020 Summer High
					

Coronavirus hospitalizations have matched the 2020 summer high in California's Bay Area, despite the area reimposing mask mandates.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Mask Mandates Fail in CA's Bay Area as Coronavirus Hospitalizations Match 2020 Summer High
> 
> 
> Coronavirus hospitalizations have matched the 2020 summer high in California's Bay Area, despite the area reimposing mask mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


Shocking isn't it? Lol! Hospitalization numbers are more due to lack of staffing than beds.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Shocking isn't it? Lol! Hospitalization numbers are more due to lack of staffing than beds.


Yup.  I know of two non jabbed nurses that are being treated like lepers.  They have to endure peer pressure unlike anything.  They have to get fired but until they do, they will be retaliated against and scorned.  My pal who is a teacher is a conflict avoider and because of his not wanting to butt his head into things like I do and ask a few questions, he took the jab and got blood clot and is on blood thinner.  Thanks God he doesn;t blame me for his decision to avoid being hassled and treated like shit at work.  The root of evil has a money trail folks.


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is a handy flow chart to better understand what to do with regards to vax passports.


----------



## outside!

Desert Hound said:


> Mask Mandates Fail in CA's Bay Area as Coronavirus Hospitalizations Match 2020 Summer High
> 
> 
> Coronavirus hospitalizations have matched the 2020 summer high in California's Bay Area, despite the area reimposing mask mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


So they are up to the same level as March 2020 for the Bay Area, and area that had a much lower infection and death rate per capita than areas like Florida, Texas and even North Dakota. Hmmm, I wonder what caused that difference?


----------



## Desert Hound

outside! said:


> So they are up to the same level as March 2020 for the Bay Area, and area that had a much lower infection and death rate per capita than areas like Florida, Texas and even North Dakota. Hmmm, I wonder what caused that difference?


Now tell me about Utah who has one of the lowest rates in the nation. Yet didnt do lockdowns, keep kids out of school, etc.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Now tell me about Utah who has one of the lowest rates in the nation. Yet didnt do lockdowns, keep kids out of school, etc.


Why talk Utah?   Six months ago, you wanted to talk about Florida, Texas, and California.  

Let’s talk about those fine places.  How are they doing right about now?

Florida?  6.4 daily covid deaths per million.

Texas?  3.4 daily covid deaths per million.

California?  1.0 daily covid deaths per million.

Yeah, California is really messed up.  Almost 1/6 as bad as Florida.

(Our problems are mostly socal.  I blame LA.)


----------



## crush

No Jab, No Raiders game.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> (Our problems are mostly socal.  I blame LA.)


That’s racist.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> hy talk Utah? Six months ago, you wanted to talk about Florida, Texas, and California


Actually I am still happy to. All 3 states have about the same outcome...despite one (CA) closing schools, biz etc.

The stats on that haven't changed. CA's measures didn't make a difference.

Tx, FL, CA all have deaths per million less than the average in the US. You wouldn't know that just watching the news.

And in a month from now their stats will still be about the same.

The problem with delta is that cases don't really matter much. Cases are largely detached from deaths.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Why talk Utah? Six months ago, you wanted to talk about Florida, Texas, and California


I also would point out you thought you had a gotcha moment...ie masks saves the day...but go silent on Utah as just one example. They are not doing anything close to what CA or SF is doing and yet have had a substantially better outcome. 

Based on the masked advocates preaching, they (Utah) should be in a far worse place now. And yet they are not.

Read the detailed article @Grace T.  and others posted regarding the actual studies on masks. I notice even @dad4  didn't have much to say on it because it is hard to refute.

And yet people keep "believing".


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> No Jab, No Raiders game.


Are you saying Vegas is requiring jabs?  

Or that you think the Raiders will lose their minds and return to Oaktown?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Are you saying Vegas is requiring jabs?
> 
> Or that you think the Raiders will lose their minds and return to Oaktown?


Clark county Nevada (Vegas) has been requiring masks as of this month.  They just announced an exception for large venue events if fully vaccinated and/or negative tests are required by the venue.


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> Actually I am still happy to. All 3 states have about the same outcome...despite one (CA) closing schools, biz etc.
> 
> The stats on that haven't changed. CA's measures didn't make a difference.
> 
> Tx, FL, CA all have deaths per million less than the average in the US. You wouldn't know that just watching the news.
> 
> And in a month from now their stats will still be about the same.
> 
> The problem with delta is that cases don't really matter much. Cases are largely detached from deaths.


I would recommend checking out the data on covid.cdc.gov.   I made the attached graphs from their data, showing the reported new deaths attributed to covid per 100k over time (since start of covid death reporting).  Right now, Utah is looking roughly similar to the overall US numbers. CA numbers are better than the national average.  Note it is a log scale.   They also have a page where one can dig into hospitalizations by age and jurisdiction if you want to dig into the recent increases in pediatric (and other age group) hospitalizations.


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> I also would point out you thought you had a gotcha moment...ie masks saves the day...but go silent on Utah as just one example. They are not doing anything close to what CA or SF is doing and yet have had a substantially better outcome.
> 
> Based on the masked advocates preaching, they (Utah) should be in a far worse place now. And yet they are not.
> 
> Read the detailed article @Grace T.  and others posted regarding the actual studies on masks. I notice even @dad4  didn't have much to say on it because it is hard to refute.
> 
> And yet people keep "believing".


Just curious, if one is to believe masks are so useless, then why do medical personnel wear them?  Why bother with the extra cost and hassle?  Is it just so that if the king George character from Hamilton is your surgeon that he won't spit in your incisions?


----------



## N00B

Roadrunner said:


> Just curious, if one is to believe masks are so useless, then why do medical personnel wear them?  Why bother with the extra cost and hassle?  Is it just so that if the king George character from Hamilton is your surgeon that he won't spit in your incisions?


If you’re speaking of surgical masks, then yes.


----------



## N00B

Roadrunner said:


> I would recommend checking out the data on covid.cdc.gov.   I made the attached graphs from their data, showing the reported new deaths attributed to covid per 100k over time (since start of covid death reporting).  Right now, Utah is looking roughly similar to the overall US numbers. CA numbers are better than the national average.  Note it is a log scale.   They also have a page where one can dig into hospitalizations by age and jurisdiction if you want to dig into the recent increases in pediatric (and other age group) hospitalizations.


If we are now in a pandemic of the ‘unvaccinated’…can we admit that obesity drives the death rate of Covid, second only to age?

Maybe there is a more simple correlation between those states populations/death rates relative to age and obesity within the population.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Just curious, if one is to believe masks are so useless, then why do medical personnel wear them?  Why bother with the extra cost and hassle?  Is it just so that if the king George character from Hamilton is your surgeon that he won't spit in your incisions?


For surgical masks it’s absolutely correct…to prevent bacterial infections in wounds. The practice of masking arose when bacterial infections were a large concern and is just part of standard practice.  It’s also the reason for the gloves. If you’ll recall a few years back there was even that concern in hospitals you can catch drug resistant infections.  These are also single use btw and never reused

otherwise, for highly infections diseases, they wear n95s. Those n95s are measured, fit tested and single use.

neither of these are the multiple use handmade cloth masks which go in the washing machine where their holes are made even bigger when washed. And the standard for these was flu which is transmitted in droplets not aerosolized and not as heavy particle wise as the delta

You wanna put n95s on 5 year olds let’s talk about the pros and cons. Otherwise you are doing security theater.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> For surgical masks it’s absolutely correct…to prevent bacterial infections in wounds. The practice of masking arose when bacterial infections were a large concern and is just part of standard practice.  It’s also the reason for the gloves. If you’ll recall a few years back there was even that concern in hospitals you can catch drug resistant infections.  These are also single use btw and never reused
> 
> otherwise, for highly infections diseases, they wear n95s. Those n95s are measured, fit tested and single use.
> 
> neither of these are the multiple use handmade cloth masks which go in the washing machine where their holes are made even bigger when washed. And the standard for these was flu which is transmitted in droplets not aerosolized and not as heavy particle wise as the delta
> 
> You wanna put n95s on 5 year olds let’s talk about the pros and cons. Otherwise you are doing security theater.


What is the transmission vehicle for delta?  How does it vary from the same for other covid variants?


----------



## Roadrunner

N00B said:


> If we are now in a pandemic of the ‘unvaccinated’…can we admit that obesity drives the death rate of Covid, second only to age?
> 
> Maybe there is a more simple correlation between those states populations/death rates relative to age and obesity within the population.


Obesity, age, diabetes. - yes, all among things known to increase personal risk for surviving/ recovering from covid.  I'm sure access to medical care is also up there as a factor too.  It wouldn't be at all surprising for covid death rates to be higher in areas where people cannot get adequate medical assistance.  

The antibody drug treatment still works against delta, but I do not know how widely available it is.  Where medical personnel are overwhelmed, however, they probably aren't going to be treating many patients with it because I understand it is a time intensive procedure to administer.   Prevention is the best cure.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Obesity, age, diabetes. - yes, all among things known to increase personal risk for surviving/ recovering from covid.  I'm sure access to medical care is also up there as a factor too.  It wouldn't be at all surprising for covid death rates to be higher in areas where people cannot get adequate medical assistance.
> 
> The antibody drug treatment still works against delta, but I do not know how widely available it is.  Where medical personnel are overwhelmed, however, they probably aren't going to be treating many patients with it because I understand it is a time intensive procedure to administer.   Prevention is the best cure.


----------



## crush

Obesity is a huge healthy concerns for kids & adults and will kill you.  Don't think for a minute it's because someone like me is the problem.  No, the problem is the weight and the lack of discipline to eat right.  So many kids sit around plying video games and eating horrible poison.  Throw mask on them is not helping either.  I'm glad were all talking about the elephant in the room.  I tried to warn my pals and everyone here to get healthy, that was 18 months ago.  My wife has a nephew who is not doing good weight wise.  Super prideful too and argues how he is right about the Rona and the shots.  It's so hard to listen to his BS.  He's at least 125 pounds over weight.


----------



## Desert Hound

Roadrunner said:


> Just curious, if one is to believe masks are so useless, then why do medical personnel wear them? Why bother with the extra cost and hassle? Is it just so that if the king George character from Hamilton is your surgeon that he won't spit in your incisions?


I was going to respond, but @Grace T. got there first.


----------



## Roadrunner

N00B said:


> If we are now in a pandemic of the ‘unvaccinated’…can we admit that obesity drives the death rate of Covid, second only to age?
> 
> Maybe there is a more simple correlation between those states populations/death rates relative to age and obesity within the population.


The CDC covid site has a page with data that gets to your point as well, looking at preexisting conditions in populations at county level.


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> For surgical masks it’s absolutely correct…to prevent bacterial infections in wounds. The practice of masking arose when bacterial infections were a large concern and is just part of standard practice.  It’s also the reason for the gloves. If you’ll recall a few years back there was even that concern in hospitals you can catch drug resistant infections.  These are also single use btw and never reused
> 
> otherwise, for highly infections diseases, they wear n95s. Those n95s are measured, fit tested and single use.
> 
> neither of these are the multiple use handmade cloth masks which go in the washing machine where their holes are made even bigger when washed. And the standard for these was flu which is transmitted in droplets not aerosolized and not as heavy particle wise as the delta
> 
> You wanna put n95s on 5 year olds let’s talk about the pros and cons. Otherwise you are doing security theater.


Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too.  It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed.  (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)  

I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


----------



## espola

Roadrunner said:


> Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too.  It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed.  (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)
> 
> I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


Grace doesn't care about data.  She is just trying to rationalize a prepared political position.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yeah, California is *really* *messed up*.  Almost 1/6 as bad as Florida.


Did you mean California is *really masked up?*


----------



## Desert Hound

Roadrunner said:


> Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too.  It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed.  (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)
> 
> I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


I wonder if funding and pressure from Gov agencies do the same thing? Trick question.









						Survey: 1 in 5 medical researchers reports pressure from funders to change study results
					

Nearly one in five public health researchers feels pressured by study funders to delay reporting or change findings, a survey published Wednesday by PLOS One found.




					www.upi.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Grace doesn't care about data.  She is just trying to rationalize a prepared political position.


Your usual idiotic contribution, I see.  Keep trolling.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Roadrunner said:


> Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too.  It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed.  (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)
> 
> I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer? You just got on here August 4th, right? And you are everywhere. That's quite a start for a newbie. I remember the parent of a trans child finding our conversation in depths of "Off Topic 2" to speak of the trials of their child. The sad thing is, these are perfectly worthy conversations to have but your Jason Blair approach is pathetic.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your usual idiotic contribution, I see.  Keep trolling.


Did you read the article yet?


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too.  It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed.  (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)
> 
> I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


The review section is interesting and comprehensive, but I note it says the same thing I've been saying: cloth masks are less protective and are potentially susceptible if they are washed, particularly if not in a hospital quality laundry.

The rest of it is just advocacy lacking in any real data.  Their argument is basically the benefits outweigh the costs (which to their credit they acknowledge, but proceed to dismiss as not very burdensome).  There's also nothing that addresses the real life concerns, particularly against the delta....anything that doesn't address what's happening in Israel and Iceland, despite vaccine mandates and mask mandates, isn't a comprehensive review.  That's always been the big question: why if masks work don't we see a substantial impact in the curves once mask mandates go into effect.

To their credit , they criticize the oversell of masks.  But they don't address the issue now that there's widespread vaccination, why mask?  Why do we care about cases?  The reality with masking is we are at a point where we need to discuss the pros and cons....cloth masking is just security theatre....either we are going to mandate n95s and surgical pluses, or let's get off of it and move on now that everyone that wants one is vaccinated.  The other thing that the pro maskers need to articulate at this point is what's the rational: hospital collapse???  If so it's a tool that should be utilized strictly in those cases where hospital collapse is a threat.

Basically the section on masks devolves into an argument yes we don't know the scope or efficacy, but the costs (which they dismiss) are so low, why not be cautious.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Did you read the article yet?


Idiot.  Yes, see above.  You really are the biggest of moronic trolls.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I wonder if funding and pressure from Gov agencies do the same thing? Trick question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Survey: 1 in 5 medical researchers reports pressure from funders to change study results
> 
> 
> Nearly one in five public health researchers feels pressured by study funders to delay reporting or change findings, a survey published Wednesday by PLOS One found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.upi.com


The buzz is that people in the field are very reluctant to criticize Fauci and Co....going along advances their career....being a contrarian is not a good look for future advancement.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer? You just got on here August 4th, right? And you are everywhere. That's quite a start for a newbie. I remember the parent of a trans child finding our conversation in depths of "Off Topic 2" to speak of the trials of their child. The sad thing is, these are perfectly worthy conversations to have but your Jason Blair approach is pathetic.


Hahahaha


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The buzz is that people in the field are very reluctant to criticize Fauci and Co....going along advances their career....being a contrarian is not a good look for future advancement.


Only in your imagination --









						“He who pays the piper calls the tune”: Researcher experiences of funder suppression of health behaviour intervention trial findings
					

Background Governments commonly fund research with specific applications in mind. Such mechanisms may facilitate ‘research translation’ but funders may employ strategies that can also undermine the integrity of both science and government. We estimated the prevalence and investigated correlates...




					journals.plos.org


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks.  Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.


Yet, the article boils everything down to 6 grossly oversimplified "dichotomies". You don't find that incredibly ironic? For example it's not "health-lives vs economy-livelihoods" its "covid health vs other health conditions, mental health, education, economy, livelihoods, social well-being etc."  We've isolated one issue above everything else.  These aren't 1v1 issues, these are 1v1,000's of issues.

I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information.  The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable.  You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.

The other problem is the pace at which information is changing.  Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time.  That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months.   I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes.  A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".

I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
_Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
the overall societal well-being._

These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people.  I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input.  People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis.  Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.

I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so.  That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so.


Speculation.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Speculation.


Nope, because if I had seen it I would have reported it.  My first thought would have been Munchausen.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Nope, because if I had seen it I would have reported it.  My first thought would have been Munchausen.


You didn't see it, and you didn't take the action, so, by definition, you're speculating.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yet, the article boils everything down to 6 grossly oversimplified "dichotomies". You don't find that incredibly ironic? For example it's not "health-lives vs economy-livelihoods" its "covid health vs other health conditions, mental health, education, economy, livelihoods, social well-being etc."  We've isolated one issue above everything else.  These aren't 1v1 issues, these are 1v1,000's of issues.
> 
> I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information.  The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable.  You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.
> 
> The other problem is the pace at which information is changing.  Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time.  That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months.   I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes.  A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".
> 
> I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
> _Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
> the overall societal well-being._
> 
> These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people.  I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input.  People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis.  Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.
> 
> I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so.  That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.











						False CPS Reports in California: What You Need to Know - Her Lawyer
					

Some cases of child abuse and neglect are falsely reported. Here’s everything you need to know about false CPS reports in California.




					herlawyer.com
				












						Can You Sue For False Accusations Of Child Neglect? - Her Lawyer
					

False accusations of child neglect can be devastate one's reputation. Here’s how to sue someone for false accusations of child neglect.




					herlawyer.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.


Let it out bro.  Were dealing with "no heart Tin Man" and not just one.  Tin Man does not care for kids.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> You didn't see it, and you didn't take the action, so, by definition, you're speculating.


It's always entertaining to see what you pick up on.  Usually it's predictable but I appreciate the nuggets you come up with on occasion.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It's always entertaining to see what you pick up on.  Usually it's predictable but I appreciate the nuggets you come up with on occasion.


Actually,  it was the "likely a teacher" phrase that caught my attention, but that's not the direction you went in.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Only in your imagination --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “He who pays the piper calls the tune”: Researcher experiences of funder suppression of health behaviour intervention trial findings
> 
> 
> Background Governments commonly fund research with specific applications in mind. Such mechanisms may facilitate ‘research translation’ but funders may employ strategies that can also undermine the integrity of both science and government. We estimated the prevalence and investigated correlates...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> journals.plos.org


Snarky title, leading questions, and published on a website where anything that meets the formatting guidelines (has to look sciencey) can get published for a fee.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why talk Utah?   Six months ago, you wanted to talk about Florida, Texas, and California.
> 
> Let’s talk about those fine places.  How are they doing right about now?
> 
> Florida?  6.4 daily covid deaths per million.
> 
> Texas?  3.4 daily covid deaths per million.
> 
> California?  1.0 daily covid deaths per million.
> 
> Yeah, California is really messed up.  Almost 1/6 as bad as Florida.
> 
> (Our problems are mostly socal.  I blame LA.)


In Florida, local officials, stymied by Governor DeSantis, are desperate for something that might make them look important. They're obviously hoping that mask-wearing, including in schools, can be implemented fast enough to take the credit for the obviously inevitable decline in Florida's numbers.

The problem for this scheme is that it looks like the death numbers are coming down already (and yes, that modest hump on the right-hand side of the graph is what had the lunatics screaming "DeathSantis" in recent weeks; they were basing their screeching on high but meaningless "case" numbers):


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Now on the other hand, deaths in Germany appear to have come down after the introduction of a medical-grade mask mandate, so it's tempting to say, well, score one for the mask people.

But wait a minute.

There's a nearby country, with virtually no masking of any kind, medical-grade or otherwise, showing exactly the same trend at the same time:


----------



## Roadrunner

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer?
> 
> I'm on here because my DS is interested to playing soccer in college. He's in a socal club. Obviously, I'm reading other threads to try to see if anyone has useful information.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information.  The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable.  You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.
> 
> The other problem is the pace at which information is changing.  Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time.  That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months.   I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes.  A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".
> 
> 
> I agree completely.
> 
> The pace of knowledge has been impressive, and yes, full of studies of varying quality with conflicting information.  There's still much unknown and unknowable - and that's uncomfortable. The bad actors deliberately spreading streams of disinformation and misinformation don't help either. Anyone who has to be setting policies or just trying to make decisions for their family is likely to feel frustrated.  And when the policies don't seem to be aligned with accurate information, it is also frustrating.


----------



## Soccerfan2

watfly said:


> Yet, the article boils everything down to 6 grossly oversimplified "dichotomies". You don't find that incredibly ironic? For example it's not "health-lives vs economy-livelihoods" its "covid health vs other health conditions, mental health, education, economy, livelihoods, social well-being etc."  We've isolated one issue above everything else.  These aren't 1v1 issues, these are 1v1,000's of issues.
> 
> I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information.  The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable.  You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.
> 
> The other problem is the pace at which information is changing.  Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time.  That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months.   I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes.  A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".
> 
> I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
> _Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
> the overall societal well-being._
> 
> These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people.  I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input.  People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis.  Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.
> 
> I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so.  That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.


Teacher here. Opposite my expectations, 95% of my 6-7 year olds don’t care. They’re perfectly used to wearing the mask. We take them off when we go outside, and I have to remind them every single day to take them off. I rarely have to remind them to put them on. I hate wearing the mask, but it’s not that big a deal. It sure did seem to cut down on the spread of illness of all kinds from kid to kid last year. Kids don’t have political bias so their reaction is quite pure and uncomplicated.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people.  I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input.  People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis.  Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.


So people who write research articles and reviews, who conduct, analyze, study, invent, discover, teach, explore and create new things are fake people who don't deal with real issues, don't have real lives?  and they only live in the ivory tower neighborhood as hermits?  That's a myth used to dismiss others. Aren't we all neighbors?  What world do you live in?


----------



## crush

Soccerfan2 said:


> *See below what soccer fan 2 said*


I broke down your quote with my take in (( )).  Thanks for being Honest, Open and Transparent with how you feel and teach.

*"Teacher here."* ((thanks for sharing))

*"Opposite my expectations"* ((it's good to look at both points of view))

*"95% of my 6-7 year olds don’t care*."  ((what city you teach in?))

*"They’re perfectly used to wearing the mask." * ((yes, when you train a child, they will do as trained and told))

*"We take them off when we go outside,"* ((oh good))

*"I have to remind them every single day to take them off."* ((This breaks my heart and pisses me off at the same time))

*"I rarely have to remind them to put them on."* ((Again, you have proven the point how brainwashed some kids are))

*"I hate wearing the mask*," ((but?))

*"but it’s not that big a deal."* ((Because I do as I'm told so I can get paid))

*"It sure did seem to cut down on the spread of illness of all kinds from kid to kid last year."* ((and? So force kids to wear a mask to cut spread of other illnesses?))

*"Kids don’t have political bias"* ((No, but their teachers sure do and their lies the problem))

*"Their reaction is quite pure and uncomplicated."*  ((Pure is 100% true and anyone messing with them will have a millstone tied around their neck when this is all over with.  No offense, but this is why were in this mess.  Some teachers ((not all)) think it's ok to get jabbed as many times as told, wear mask 24/7 and take boosters.  You guys are their sells reps and pushing the Jab or a punishment.  Study up on the Nuremberg Code, MOO!!))


----------



## NorCalDad

espola said:


> Grace doesn't care about data.  She is just trying to rationalize a prepared political position.


Which also cues all the references to quacks on Twitter....I still can't read a @Grace T. post here without remembering some of the links she would send out trying to support her argument.  Hard to forget those.


----------



## crush

At least the Governor is wearing a mask, right?  It's so obvious what his real health issue but some just can;t see the truth.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Which also cues all the references to quacks on Twitter....I still can't read a @Grace T. post here without remembering some of the links she would send out trying to support her argument.  Hard to forget those.


I've had a hard time believing that one person could get so many things wrong day after day, unless she has a staff working for her.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
> _Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
> the overall societal well-being._


Yeah, let's let less than 0.1% of the population decide what we are allowed to do on a daily basis. Paternalism and elitism under the guise of "policies that protect".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I've had a hard time believing that one person could get so many things wrong day after day, unless she has a staff working for her.


Which ones?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, let's let less than 0.1% of the population decide what we are allowed to do on a daily basis. Paternalism and *elitism* under the guise of "policies that protect".


K & S, if you truly know me, you know it was my Elitist bloodline that had evil tricks up their sleeves for me before my conception and birth.  It was all planned for the "Golden Lamb."  Sick shit bro that I would never make up.  It's worth repeating to help those who think physical only and this life is it and they just die and no more soul.  Nope, way more to life then then going back to the ground.  The life I know to be true is amazing, I promise.  You see, we were all slaves to the masters of this world and those masters are trying to get everyone jabbed.  This is a once in a lifetime chance to choose love and goodness over hate, fear and evil.  No ifs and or butts about that. Control monsters that have no heart.  They do have eternal soul and they already know death is not the end of nothing, only the beginning of eternity.  Humans have no clue and are just scared to die.  My bloodline was up to no good from what I was told by my foster parents and the research I did.  Free Masons, Scottish Rite kind of family with 33 degrees and a list of evil that even, eye, yes me, can get a little spooked by.  However, I know the truth and like I have said 100 times, I have had more than 9 lives on this short 55 years on planet earth.  I not scared of death and have zero fear of it or the virus.  No fear.  I think that bugs people who are Science Magicians and trick people with half truths or no truth but they just say it;s true.  If i told you everything I know to be true, you would either not believe me like Espola, believe like EOTL and support 80,000,000 abortions from the Plan for the Parent in the Hood or you just might not want to talk with me at all because these discussions can make one feel uneasy or even puke when they find the F out WTF is really going on.  No one is going to escape the truth.  Its what you do with the truth that matters.  I spook some folks.  I call them as I see them and I'm not always right.  Question everything but if your going to open your mouth, you* Best*,* Better* be *Great* at answering those with super deep spiritual questions about what's after death and how can I prepare for IT.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> So people who write research articles and reviews, who conduct, analyze, study, invent, discover, teach, explore and create new things are fake people who don't deal with real issues, don't have real lives?  and they only live in the ivory tower neighborhood as hermits?  That's a myth used to dismiss others. Aren't we all neighbors?  What world do you live in?


Often times, yes, they are out of touch with the real world because they live in a controlled environment where they can control variables.   They are well meaning but are often not subject to the negative impacts of their own conclusions.  In the real world variables can't be controlled. They do provide valuable input and it should be considered to some extent, but they shouldn't solely be relied on.  However, during the pandemic we've continued to ignore doctors who were treating Covid patients and having successful results but were ignored because some study didn't have similar results in their controlled study.  We've ignored small business owners who were super creative in providing safe places yet were still shut down.   We also ignored small business owners who said if you pay people for not working they will have trouble getting employees (this is a huge problem right now and is stifling recovery).  We ignored small property owners who couldn't evict their non-paying tenants and have been forced to either sell the property or are now in default on the mortgage.

I've mentioned this before, but I used to give expert witness testimony.  We always loved it when the "expert" on the other side was a professor because we knew their opinion would always be theoretical, and rarely related to what actually happened.  So yes I'm incredibly skeptical of those that only have education and not real world experience.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Often times, yes, they are out of touch with the real world because they live in a controlled environment where they can control variables.   They are well meaning but are often not subject to the negative impacts of their own conclusions.  In the real world variables can't be controlled. They do provide valuable input and it should be considered to some extent, but they shouldn't solely be relied on.  However, during the pandemic we've continued to ignore doctors who were treating Covid patients and having successful results but were ignored because some study didn't have similar results in their controlled study.  We've ignored small business owners who were super creative in providing safe places yet were still shut down.   We also ignored small business owners who said if you pay people for not working they will have trouble getting employees (this is a huge problem right now and is stifling recovery).  We ignored small property owners who couldn't evict their non-paying tenants and have been forced to either sell the property or are now in default on the mortgage.
> 
> I've mentioned this before, but I used to give expert witness testimony.  We always loved it when the "expert" on the other side was a professor because we knew their opinion would always be theoretical, and rarely related to what actually happened.  So yes I'm incredibly skeptical of those that only have education and not real world experience.


The last I checked, medical professionals still go out to dinner, send their kids to school, and have families.  They suffered in exactly the same way as the rest of us.   When schools were closed, epidemiologists’ kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.  

We do have elected officials to represent us in this.  Your complaint is that, after talking to the experts, your elected officials did not do what you wanted.

Get in line.  Elected officials don’t always do what I want either.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Often times, yes, they are out of touch with the real world because they live in a controlled environment where they can control variables.   They are well meaning but are often not subject to the negative impacts of their own conclusions.  In the real world variables can't be controlled. They do provide valuable input and it should be considered to some extent, but they shouldn't solely be relied on.  However, during the pandemic we've continued to ignore doctors who were treating Covid patients and having successful results but were ignored because some study didn't have similar results in their controlled study.  We've ignored small business owners who were super creative in providing safe places yet were still shut down.   We also ignored small business owners who said if you pay people for not working they will have trouble getting employees (this is a huge problem right now and is stifling recovery).  We ignored small property owners who couldn't evict their non-paying tenants and have been forced to either sell the property or are now in default on the mortgage.
> 
> I've mentioned this before, but I used to give expert witness testimony.  *We always loved it when the "expert" on the other side was a professor because we knew their opinion would always be theoretical, and rarely related to what actually happened.  So yes I'm incredibly skeptical of those that only have education and not real world experience.*


Excellent take Wat Fly and you have first hand experience.  You seem to like the truth and I bet like to watch people lie under oath and squirm like a little worm, like when a video camera, lights & action and when lot's of questions are pepper sprayed.  Even the best liar will get his ass handed to him on cross examination with email and texts attached.  The Truth & Justice Train is coming for us all!  Stop lying, cheating, bribing, blackmailing, black list, intimidate or whatever you do to win and look good.  If your in high places of leadership, do not give out false or deadly misinformation during a war.  Trust me on this one you guys.  I care about all of you and your being watched big time.  Nuremberg Code is a Law for ALL humans.  It's basic human rights 101.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When schools were closed, epidemiologists’ kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.


Let me fix that for you. 

When schools were closed FOR NO REASON IN STATES LIKE CA, epidemiologists' kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Let me fix that for you.
> 
> When schools were closed* FOR NO REASON IN STATES LIKE CA*, epidemiologists' kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.


Hound, unfortunately their is a reason for all this and it's not good.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I've had a hard time believing that one person could get so many things wrong day after day, unless she has a staff working for her.


That’s funny considering my record…it’s even funnier considering your record


----------



## watfly

Soccerfan2 said:


> Teacher here. Opposite my expectations, 95% of my 6-7 year olds don’t care. They’re perfectly used to wearing the mask. We take them off when we go outside, and I have to remind them every single day to take them off. I rarely have to remind them to put them on. I hate wearing the mask, but it’s not that big a deal. It sure did seem to cut down on the spread of illness of all kinds from kid to kid last year. Kids don’t have political bias so their reaction is quite pure and uncomplicated.


No offense, but that's conditioning, not informed consent, and I find it incredibly sad.

And I agree, I don't care about adults having to wear masks, big deal.  However, the negative impacts of having to wear a mask for children far outweigh the risks of Covid, and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults from Covid.  That's the adults responsibility.

Thank you for being a teacher.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Let me fix that for you.
> 
> When schools were closed FOR NO REASON IN STATES LIKE CA, epidemiologists' kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.


No reason, other than trying to avoid a hospital shit show like they had in Arizona.

You see, if CA had the same per capita covid death rate as AZ, an additional 36,000 people would have died.  

36,000 extra deaths is what those ivory tower elitists call “a bad thing”.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> So people who write research articles and reviews, who conduct, analyze, study, invent, discover, teach, explore and create new things are fake people who don't deal with real issues, don't have real lives?  and they only live in the ivory tower neighborhood as hermits?  That's a myth used to dismiss others. Aren't we all neighbors?  What world do you live in?


The opposite argument which is thrown around by people in your camp is we should “trust the experts”. There are several issues with “trust the experts” such as their experiences are limited by being from the same background, they have similar political tendencies, they are subject to group think, there’s a tendency towards comformity both from societal pressure in your peer group and impacts on career advancement, it breeds an arrogance that they know better and should not be questioned by outsiders.   But the 2008 financial crash is a good example about why experts fail and they can be shown up by picky groups of outsiders with a contrarian streak. We’ve seen it in other fields too, most recently the Afghanistan debacle.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> No reason, other than *trying to avoid a hospital shit show like they had in Arizona.*
> 
> You see, if CA had the same per capita covid death rate as AZ, an additional 36,000 people would have died.
> 
> 36,000 extra deaths is what those* ivory tower elitists *call “a bad thing”.


Dad, your sounding a lot like EOTL.......I think your EOTL.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny considering my record…it’s even funnier considering your record


Dude is all over you Grace.  I wonder why Espola, EOTL and Dad 4 have it for you?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The last I checked, medical professionals still go out to dinner, send their kids to school, and have families.  They suffered in exactly the same way as the rest of us.   When schools were closed, epidemiologists’ kids were stuck on zoom like everyone else.
> 
> We do have elected officials to represent us in this.  Your complaint is that, after talking to the experts, your elected officials did not do what you wanted.
> 
> Get in line.  Elected officials don’t always do what I want either.


How many payroll checks have you missed in the last 18 months?  How many people have you attempted to hire in the last 18 months? How many rent checks did you try to collect in the last 18 months?  Just get in line? This is the exact arrogance that I'm referring to.

Now admittedly relative to everyone else our family did great during Covid, in part because we took a common sense approach to Covid and not a fear based approach.  I was really lucky too because business was great.  However, many were much less fortunate.  Mostly children because of the burdens we put on them, because adults couldn't handle their own business.

Right now we can't open our youth services club houses to full capacity, because we can't get employees due to the overly generous unemployment benefits.  We serve underprivileged kids, they are now left without a safe place to go to after school.

We need to stop making decisions based solely on the opinions of "experts" and start considering the input of *stakeholders*.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The opposite argument which is thrown around by people in your camp is we should “trust the experts”. There are several issues with “trust the experts” such as their experiences are limited by being from the same background, they have similar political tendencies, they are subject to group think, there’s a tendency towards comformity both from societal pressure in your peer group and impacts on career advancement, it breeds an arrogance that they know better and should not be questioned by outsiders.   But the 2008 financial crash is a good example about why experts fail and they can be shown up by picky groups of outsiders with a contrarian streak. We’ve seen it in other fields too, most recently the Afghanistan debacle.


Trusting the experts may be bad, but the alternative is worse.  

What is happening right now in places where every individual decides for themself whether masks work and whether vaccines work?  

The current death rate in those states is about five times the death rate in the “follow the experts” states.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Which ones?


Let’s review some of my record:

-China would be unable to contain covid
-trump minimizing the covid threat in state of the union
-first on these forums to say we have an issue, mic would be canceled, soccer shut down
-predicted lockdowns nearly a month before they happened (had a full closet of tp)
-predicted the stock market crash (though I concede I didn’t think the recovery would be as advanced)
-advised kiddos school that they’d be shut down..they were ready to go remote day 1
-said 14 days to slow spread was nonsense
-said lockdowns would be proven to be much less effective than expected unless they were hardcore Australian lockdowns. 
-thought masks indoors were a good idea, thought the cloth masks would be proven to have minimal effectiveness
-thought masks outdoors and outdoor restrictions were idiotic and would be proven counter productive
-thought masks being better than vaccines was radical oversell
-though schools closed in fall/sports closed were unwarranted and were lower risk give. The cost
-thought there would be a s show of an election
-predicted a very harsh winter wave (on which dad4 and I concurred)
-predicted political violence after the election
-predicted the current inflationary pressures
-said tx Florida removal of restrictions wouldn’t lead to an increase
-said something was up in India which would turn into a more severe global wave
-predicted Asia would go through a much more severe delta wave
-predicted the office reopening in SoCal would be delayed
-warned of the vaccine mandates and coming fight
-concurred with dad 4 about the delta wave but I argued it would be here earlier than fall

the biggest thing I got wrong was in summer 2020 that there might be a threshold where T cell immunity might reduce the level of contagion (though I still think it was part of the answer in Asia with covid prime). What about Espolas record


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Dude is all over you Grace.  I wonder why Espola, EOTL and Dad 4 have it for you?


Yeah I wonder…hmmm???


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Trusting the experts may be bad, but the alternative is worse.
> 
> What is happening right now in places where every individual decides for themself whether masks work and whether vaccines work?
> 
> The current death rate in those states is about five times the death rate in the “follow the experts” states.


Sigh this is the same thing you guys said last summer then winter hit


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> The pace of knowledge has been impressive, and yes, full of studies of varying quality with conflicting information. There's still much unknown and unknowable - and that's uncomfortable. The bad actors deliberately spreading streams of disinformation and misinformation don't help either. Anyone who has to be setting policies or just trying to make decisions for their family is likely to feel frustrated. And when the policies don't seem to be aligned with accurate information, it is also frustrating.


Whose spreading the misinformation?  It's mostly coming from the "ists" with their mixed messaging.  The Misinformation in Chief is Fauci.  The media is also guilty because they either are trying to fit a narrative (like politicians) or they simply don't understand what they are reporting.

There seems to be this sentiment that the problem is Johnny Q Redneck is spreading misinformation on social media. Johnny Q Redneck is not the problem, he has no credibility.    The biggest problem is the "experts" and the media that have implied credibility.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Elected officials don’t always do what I want either.


Yep. Consent of the governed is indeed a path down which many current events lead.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Whose spreading the misinformation?  It's mostly coming from the "ists" with their mixed messaging.  The Misinformation in Chief is Fauci.  The media is also guilty because they either are trying to fit a narrative (like politicians) or they simply don't understand what they are reporting.
> 
> There seems to be this sentiment that the problem is Johnny Q Redneck is spreading misinformation on social media. Johnny Q Redneck is not the problem, he has no credibility.    The biggest problem is the "experts" and the media that have implied credibility.


It's complete BS what I have endured as a Golden Child.  I'm sick of this, truly I am.  I wake up to blond hair every morning still and I'm 54.  I never followed this Q thing until after the election was ripped off.  The experts are liars and that is not a good thing, especially of the masses are asking for truth and Justice for all.  All I ever wanted was to live with people who care for others and follow the truth.  The things these little monsters say about me is really getting on my nerves.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yep. Consent of the governed is indeed a path down which many current events lead.


Watch this Evil.  It's sad to think both men probably be alive if the lie was not allowed.  It makes a point about what has really been going on behind the scenes of the most evil people on earth.  This all goes together with their evil plan.  Get off the evil train dude before it's too late.  Unless of course you like to play with evil.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Let’s review some of my record:
> 
> -China would be unable to contain covid
> -trump minimizing the covid threat in state of the union
> -first on these forums to say we have an issue, mic would be canceled, soccer shut down
> -predicted lockdowns nearly a month before they happened (had a full closet of tp)
> -predicted the stock market crash (though I concede I didn’t think the recovery would be as advanced)
> -advised kiddos school that they’d be shut down..they were ready to go remote day 1
> -said 14 days to slow spread was nonsense
> -said lockdowns would be proven to be much less effective than expected unless they were hardcore Australian lockdowns.
> -thought masks indoors were a good idea, thought the cloth masks would be proven to have minimal effectiveness
> -thought masks outdoors and outdoor restrictions were idiotic and would be proven counter productive
> -thought masks being better than vaccines was radical oversell
> -though schools closed in fall/sports closed were unwarranted and were lower risk give. The cost
> -thought there would be a s show of an election
> -predicted a very harsh winter wave (on which dad4 and I concurred)
> -predicted political violence after the election
> -predicted the current inflationary pressures
> -said tx Florida removal of restrictions wouldn’t lead to an increase
> -said something was up in India which would turn into a more severe global wave
> -predicted Asia would go through a much more severe delta wave
> -predicted the office reopening in SoCal would be delayed
> -warned of the vaccine mandates and coming fight
> -concurred with dad 4 about the delta wave but I argued it would be here earlier than fall
> 
> the biggest thing I got wrong was in summer 2020 that there might be a threshold where T cell immunity might reduce the level of contagion (though I still think it was part of the answer in Asia with covid prime). What about Espolas record


The biggest thing you got wrong is your continued insistence that masks do not limit spread from an infected person to others.

And you still get it wrong.  

Check your Florida numbers, too.  They seem to have had an increase, after all.


----------



## Soccerfan2

watfly said:


> No offense, but that's conditioning, not informed consent, and I find it incredibly sad.
> 
> And I agree, I don't care about adults having to wear masks, big deal.  However, the negative impacts of having to wear a mask for children far outweigh the risks of Covid, and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults from Covid.  That's the adults responsibility.
> 
> Thank you for being a teacher.


Politics certainly are a heavy filter. It takes intention to see through it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The biggest thing you got wrong is your continued insistence that masks do not limit spread from an infected person to others.
> 
> And you still get it wrong.
> 
> Check your Florida numbers, too.  They seem to have had an increase, after all.


Against prime I said help a little. Against delta I said only surgical plus and n95s make an impact. If you want to play “check the numbers”: check the uk the day mask mandates went away, or Iceland or Israel now, or to go to favorite hits Los Angeles in the winter.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Watch this Evil.  It's sad to think both men probably be alive if the lie was not allowed.  It makes a point about what has really been going on behind the scenes of the most evil people on earth.  This all goes together with their evil plan.  Get off the evil train dude before it's too late.  Unless of course you like to play with evil.


Sorry, don't click on stuff like that.  the other night I decided it was timely to go back and look at this great book the Kite Runner.  About a person who lived through true evil and sought to find peace. Here is a quote.

"I wondered if that was how forgiveness budded; not with the fanfare of epiphany, but with pain gathering its things, packing up, and slipping away unannounced in the middle of the night."


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Let’s review some of my record:
> 
> -China would be unable to contain covid
> -trump minimizing the covid threat in state of the union
> -first on these forums to say we have an issue, mic would be canceled, soccer shut down
> -predicted lockdowns nearly a month before they happened (had a full closet of tp)
> -predicted the stock market crash (though I concede I didn’t think the recovery would be as advanced)
> -advised kiddos school that they’d be shut down..they were ready to go remote day 1
> -said 14 days to slow spread was nonsense
> -said lockdowns would be proven to be much less effective than expected unless they were hardcore Australian lockdowns.
> -thought masks indoors were a good idea, thought the cloth masks would be proven to have minimal effectiveness
> -thought masks outdoors and outdoor restrictions were idiotic and would be proven counter productive
> -thought masks being better than vaccines was radical oversell
> -though schools closed in fall/sports closed were unwarranted and were lower risk give. The cost
> -thought there would be a s show of an election
> -predicted a very harsh winter wave (on which dad4 and I concurred)
> -predicted political violence after the election
> -predicted the current inflationary pressures
> -said tx Florida removal of restrictions wouldn’t lead to an increase
> -said something was up in India which would turn into a more severe global wave
> -predicted Asia would go through a much more severe delta wave
> -predicted the office reopening in SoCal would be delayed
> -warned of the vaccine mandates and coming fight
> -concurred with dad 4 about the delta wave but I argued it would be here earlier than fall
> 
> the biggest thing I got wrong was in summer 2020 that there might be a threshold where T cell immunity might reduce the level of contagion (though I still think it was part of the answer in Asia with covid prime). What about Espolas record


Don't forget the many times you have compared the size of the virus to the pitch of the mask fabric.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Against prime I said help a little. Against delta I said only surgical plus and n95s make an impact. If you want to play “check the numbers”: check the uk the day mask mandates went away, or Iceland or Israel now, or to go to favorite hits Los Angeles in the winter.


Dad is losing it big time.  You have been so in the middle you piss me off sometimes Grace.  I said it before and I will say it again, I think you would have made a good judge or mediator.  I know a mediator who makes $8,000 for a days work and some paper work.  All satire aside, dad does seem emotional today and using four letter words like EOTL did.  It was about two years ago that I allowed the "F: word to come out of my mouth from the pit of my stomach.  I held the "F" word in for 31 years.  I never cuzzed, ask my kids and my wife.  She would never have married me if I swore, I swear to the Lord.  I dont swear at people either or if I did by accident it was wrong.  It was needed to make my point crystal clear to some evil farts and it worked for what I used it for.  I now realize that the "F" word is for all of us to use, just use it carefully and not too much and only to help people see their foolish ways.  My Evangelical Religious pals think I'm in sin.  We agree to disagree and I will let the Lord sort all the judging and the rewards.  That's his job, not mine.  I'm only hear to poke people with the truth.  Bottom line Grace, Dads numbers look like shit again and his brain is all fucked up   Looking for straws to grasp when there are no more straws to grasp, makes one look like a complete moron!


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The other night I ((Evil)) decided it was timely to go back and look at this great book the Kite Runner.  *About a person who lived through true evil and sought to find peace*.


Why is The Kite Runner a banned book?

The Kite Runner has been on the American Library Association's top ten lists for most challenged books in 2008 (for offensive language, sexually explicit material, and being unsuited to age group), in 2012 (for depictions of homosexuality, offensive language, religious viewpoints, sexually explicit), in 2014

Is The Kite Runner a true story?

No, *The Kite Runner is not a true story*.

I get you Evil, I really do.  To know Evil is to do Evil, right?  I played on both sides when I was younger ((experimenting with dark shit)) and saw the "good vs evil"  choice early on.  We both get each other.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> We do have elected officials to represent us in this.  Your complaint is that, after talking to the experts, your elected officials did not do what you wanted..


What about when your elected official makes one set of rules for the population yet lives free of those rules in his/her life?  

Feelings in that one?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Against prime I said help a little. Against delta I said only surgical plus and n95s make an impact. If you want to play “check the numbers”: check the uk the day mask mandates went away, or Iceland or Israel now, or to go to favorite hits Los Angeles in the winter.


If you’re going to try to understand epidemiology at that level, take a class in biological dynamical systems.

You keep making the same error misunderstanding the effect of a change to R.  

You falsely believe that “a reduction to transmissibility means cases will drop”.    Then, when the world fails to match your misunderstanding, you assume that transmissibility must not have been impacted.  

You’re way out of your depth here, and you are giving advice which will harm people, if they believe it.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Dad is losing it big time.  You have been so in the middle you piss me off sometimes Grace.  I said it before and I will say it again, I think you would have made a good judge or mediator.  I know a mediator who makes $8,000 for a days work and some paper work.  All satire aside, dad does seem emotional today and using four letter words like EOTL did.  It was about two years ago that I allowed the "F: word to come out of my mouth from the pit of my stomach.  I helf the "F" word in for 31 years.  I never cuzzed, as my kids and my wife.  She would never have married me if I swore.  I dont swear at people.  It was needed to make my point crystal clear and it worked for what I used it for.  I now realize that the "F" word is for all us to use, just use it carefully and not too much and only to help people see their foolish hearts.  My Evangelical Religious pals think I'm in sin.  We agree to disagree and I will let the Lord sort all the judging and the rewards.  That's his job, not mine.  I'm only hear to poke people with the truth.  Bottom line Grace, Dads numbers look like shit again and his brain is all fucked up   Looking for straws to grasp when there are no more straws to grasp, makes one look like a complete moron!


Here’s another little prediction: I think both team panic and team reason are at the edge of their patience with each other.  The slow moving collapse of the Biden admin isn’t helping things…while there was the appearance of leadership it’s enough to keep things in check. Barring another unifier like 9/11 or something or a reset such as Biden resigning for health reasons, that check on things is gone now.  Things get more ugly here particularly as we head into winter and there are more (particularly school) disruptions (even if just schools disrupted due to exposures). I’m not 100% on board with a bad winter wave but if the info showing the vaccine weakens 8 months out is true (and there does appear to be at least some solid evidence this is the case), we could be in for a bad one…my  variable right now is whether the delta burns out and/or is replaced by another variant.  The summer southern delta wave from here moves north but don’t know yet how long it will last.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> What about when your elected official makes one set of rules for the population yet lives free of those rules in his/her life?
> 
> Feelings in that one?


Not really.  Politicians who think they are above the rules are dime a dozen in both parties.  

I am much more angry at the deliberate incompetence which results in deaths.  Cuomo and Levine for restocking the nursing homses with fresh covid patients.  DeSantis and Abbott for blocking mask rules in the middle of an outbreak.


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> What about when your elected official makes one set of rules for the population yet lives free of those rules in his/her life?
> 
> Feelings in that one?


Damn right Kicker.  That Dad of 4 is getting on my nerves today.  "Rules for thee but not for me" is a trigger tagline for me.  I knew a minister way back who was not what he said he was.  He tried to take me to Blacks Beach when I was young in the faith, I kid you not.  I surfed it one time back when i was 13 when I was serious about being a pro surfer with Parsons, Curren and Booth.  What I didnt know was it was where some of the fellas would go to get naked and sun bath.  Minister asked me if I wanted to meet down at Blacks for a Quiet Time and I said sure. Shall we bring our boards and he said no, just a beautiful place to pray.  Anyway, I get down there and all the guys are naked but me.  I was so pissed off and even told on the minister. He said he didnt know either ((ya right, dude grew up down there)).  It was a hot mess.  His girlfriend dumped him.  It later came out that indeed he was gay but didnt want to be or something like that.  He got really honest with me and I forgave him and told him to be just yourself.  I dont know where he is today ((it was 33 years ago to the day I believe)) but wish him nothing but the best.


----------



## watfly

Update on San Diego County Covid and kids:

99.95% of age 0-19 have not been hospitalized with Covid in the last 18 months.  (525 hospitalizations vs population of 867,245)
99.9998% of age 0-19 have not died with Covid in the last 18 months.  (2 deaths vs population of 867,245)


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you’re going to try to understand epidemiology at that level, take a class in biological dynamical systems.
> 
> You keep making the same error misunderstanding the effect of a change to R.
> 
> You falsely believe that “a reduction to transmissibility means cases will drop”.    Then, when the world fails to match your misunderstanding, you assume that transmissibility must not have been impacted.
> 
> You’re way out of your depth here, and you are giving advice which will harm people, if they believe it.


This is an example of you being lost so thick in the weeds that you can’t realize that what you said makes no sense. If a reduction in transmissibility doesn’t lead to a reduction in cases what’s the point?????  I know that’s not what you meant: the problem we are talking about is what is the hypothetical prevention of cases that otherwise would have occurred, for which you have absolutely no data (due to the lack of crt) and so are basically guessing based upon a bunch of other assumptions. It is very clear, though, that the masks dont have a substantial impact or you’d see a substantial change in the directions of the curves when mandates are implemented but when you compare neighboring counties or countries side by side you don’t see this real world impact (which you’ve tried to explain away that it’s because people cross the borders routinely)

you and I agreed that indoor masking helped reduce transmissibility of the prime. We disagreed on magnitude.My number was in the range of a 5-15% reduction in probability of a transmission on a micro basis. You felt it was in the neighborhood of 40% But didn’t articulate the 40% of what (we all assumedit was macro which just belies the real world numbers). Where I agree with Oster and you seem to be anti science is the notion that against the delta cloth masks are useless.

what’s more funny is that you fall back on the same line just subject to criticism: trust the experts


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> Often times, yes, they are out of touch with the real world because they live in a controlled environment where they can control variables.   They are well meaning but are often not subject to the negative impacts of their own conclusions.  In the real world variables can't be controlled. They do provide valuable input and it should be considered to some extent, but they shouldn't solely be relied on.  However, during the pandemic we've continued to ignore doctors who were treating Covid patients and having successful results but were ignored because some study didn't have similar results in their controlled study.  We've ignored small business owners who were super creative in providing safe places yet were still shut down.   We also ignored small business owners who said if you pay people for not working they will have trouble getting employees (this is a huge problem right now and is stifling recovery).  We ignored small property owners who couldn't evict their non-paying tenants and have been forced to either sell the property or are now in default on the mortgage.
> 
> I've mentioned this before, but I used to give expert witness testimony.  We always loved it when the "expert" on the other side was a professor because we knew their opinion would always be theoretical, and rarely related to what actually happened.  So yes I'm incredibly skeptical of those that only have education and not real world experience.


I don't think doctors or nurses having actual demonstrated success with how to best try to treat or help people with covid were ignored. The best practices have changed over the pandemic.  There were some ideas suggested for possible treatments that didn't pan out.

Universities are not controlled environments any more than large businesses or other institutions.  There are productivity expectations, labor issues, budget problems, people problems, just like anywhere.  And they are not the ones setting government policies nor school policies.  Not being able to control all variables is very different from identifying the involved variables, thinking about how they influence outcomes, and trying to find approaches for both analysis and possible solutions to problems.

I was on a jury where the other juro


Grace T. said:


> The opposite argument which is thrown around by people in your camp is we should “trust the experts”. There are several issues with “trust the experts” such as their experiences are limited by being from the same background, they have similar political tendencies, they are subject to group think, there’s a tendency towards comformity both from societal pressure in your peer group and impacts on career advancement, it breeds an arrogance that they know better and should not be questioned by outsiders.   But the 2008 financial crash is a good example about why experts fail and they can be shown up by picky groups of outsiders with a contrarian streak. We’ve seen it in other fields too, most recently the Afghanistan debacle.


How do you pick and choose which "expert" you trust?   Do you ask your mechanic for advice on cancer treatment?  Look for advice on investments from your wedding planner?  Btw, it's news to me that experts in any field are part of a closed society, and everyone who is an expert in their field is similar. Some gross generalization and assumptions here.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> This is an example of you being lost so thick in the weeds that you can’t realize that what you said makes no sense. *If a reduction in transmissibility doesn’t lead to a reduction in cases what’s the point?????  *I know that’s not what you meant: the problem we are talking about is what is the hypothetical prevention of cases that otherwise would have occurred, for which you have absolutely no data (due to the lack of crt) and so are basically guessing based upon a bunch of other assumptions. It is very clear, though, that the masks dont have a substantial impact or you’d see a substantial change in the directions of the curves when mandates are implemented but when you compare neighboring counties or countries side by side you don’t see this real world impact (which you’ve tried to explain away that it’s because people cross the borders routinely)
> 
> you and I agreed that indoor masking helped reduce transmissibility of the prime. We disagreed on magnitude.My number was in the range of a 5-15% reduction in probability of a transmission on a micro basis. You felt it was in the neighborhood of 40% But didn’t articulate the 40% of what (we all assumedit was macro which just belies the real world numbers). Where I agree with Oster and you seem to be anti science is the notion that against the delta cloth masks are useless.
> 
> what’s more funny is that you fall back on the same line just subject to criticism: trust the experts


Yes.  A reduction in R can co-exist with an increase on cases.  And an increase to R can co-exist with a drop in cases.  Differential equations are like that.  I’d explain it, but it requires about two years of graduate level math which you never took.

Either take the classes, or listen to the people who took the classes.  Until then, you’re an unqualified person who insists on bad mouthing the people who are qualified.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> I don't think doctors or nurses having actual demonstrated success with how to best try to treat or help people with covid were ignored. The best practices have changed over the pandemic.  There were some ideas suggested for possible treatments that didn't pan out.
> 
> Universities are not controlled environments any more than large businesses or other institutions.  There are productivity expectations, labor issues, budget problems, people problems, just like anywhere.  And they are not the ones setting government policies nor school policies.  Not being able to control all variables is very different from identifying the involved variables, thinking about how they influence outcomes, and trying to find approaches for both analysis and possible solutions to problems.
> 
> I was on a jury where the other juro
> 
> How do you pick and choose which "expert" you trust?   Do you ask your mechanic for advice on cancer treatment?  Look for advice on investments from your wedding planner?  Btw, it's news to me that experts in any field are part of a closed society, and everyone who is an expert in their field is similar. Some gross generalization and assumptions here.


Back in the fall I had a secondary bacterial infection that nearly killed me which they think resulted from a weakened immune system from covid. I knew the antibiotic wasn’t working but my gp and specialist insisted that I play out the entire course, even one night when I was on the floor in agony screaming in front of my kids. I insisted on being switched instead of going off and taking another culture. Doctors argued but gave in. It saves my life the doctors conceded.

same Story on covid…day 10 couldn’t breath…it was at the beginning and they didn’t know what to do…I told my doc put me in a steroid. Doc said it kept me out of the hospital saved my life maybe.

2008 my financial advisor told me to hold certain assets.  I told her the bottom was about to drop out.  She called me crazy. I was spared the worst (my younger sibling did not listen and bought at the top of a bubble)

no you don’t listen to you mechanic for cancer.  You do assume the experts are idiots and rather than defer you question the hell out of them. The internet is also the great info leveler which is why the experts have been routinely been beaten by knowledgeable outsiders.  The entire idea of the enlightenment was not to follow blindly but to think critically. That’s why the recent tech tendency to censor info is so dangerous.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes.  A reduction in R can co-exist with an increase on cases.  And an increase to R can co-exist with a drop in cases.  Differential equations are like that.  I’d explain it, but it requires about two years of graduate level math which you never took.
> 
> Either take the classes, or listen to the people who took the classes.  Until then, you’re an unqualified person who insists on bad mouthing the people who are qualified.


Seems like I got under someone’s skin. And you didn’t even understand the point I corrected you on (which is a very basic basic point) and just doubled down on the mistake. This is why you don’t defer to experts


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> *How do you pick and choose which "expert" you trust? * *Do you ask your mechanic for advice on cancer treatment? *((No, that is stupid))


Ask questions to Doctors and not auto mechanics Roadrunner.   Ask Docs you know and trust too.  Watch their body language and listen to what comes out of their mouth.  Are they defensive?  Are they mocking you for daring to ask a Q?  Are they just following the boss's orders?  If so, go up the chain of command.  Get to the truth damn it.  Do you have any contacts in the Marines Rr?  Ask them what they think.  Question everything and everyone because your life and your hearers will be affected by your choice and dont be the first to get in line for booster jabs this time.  I slowed played this big time because I knew from my Stanford friend who is a doctor and my pals in the military that this is not good.  I took all that information and planted it on the right side of my brain.  After that, I went online to see what the folks were saying.  That's when the assholes on FB drew lines because they were pissed off HRC lost and blamed it on me and the rain.  Sore losers then went out of their way to cheat and win at all cost.  Russia and more Russia, Impeach twice and then the big heist Nov 3rd.  This was a military sting operation fool.  That alone should scare you straight.  Dont F with people who have been big time screwed over by the War Vampires.  The Scam with a Plan is what were all fighting over now.  It;s the flu.  Grace thinks otherwise.  She plays it safe and looks for common ground.  Where two side fight, no one is right, right?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Seems like I got under someone’s skin. And you didn’t even understand the point I corrected you on (which is a very basic basic point) and just doubled down on the mistake. This is why you don’t defer to experts


It's EOTL.  Exposed!!!


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Not really.  Politicians who think they are above the rules are dime a dozen in both parties.
> 
> I am much more angry at the deliberate incompetence which results in deaths.  Cuomo and Levine for restocking the nursing homses with fresh covid patients.  DeSantis and Abbott for blocking mask rules in the middle of an outbreak.


Cuomo was ignorant.  DeSantis and Abbott both know exactly what they are doing.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> Whose spreading the misinformation?  It's mostly coming from the "ists" with their mixed messaging.  The Misinformation in Chief is Fauci.  The media is also guilty because they either are trying to fit a narrative (like politicians) or they simply don't understand what they are reporting.
> 
> There seems to be this sentiment that the problem is Johnny Q Redneck is spreading misinformation on social media. Johnny Q Redneck is not the problem, he has no credibility.    The biggest problem is the "experts" and the media that have implied credibility.


I agree that the problems come in communication.  It's been poor.  The policy makers might or might not be getting good information, and frequently, they are not considering a full enough set of stakeholders. If you're not at the table, right?   We needed transparent, well informed communication from the start, and we didn't get it.  We deserve better, and I think most everyone is frustrated.  

As a society, too many want to divide us into camps, and dismiss others if their opinion doesn't conform.  We're not listening to each other's stories.  Families are getting divided. For what?  It's really sad.

The misinformation and conspiracy theories are initiated by just a few, and it's not by Johnny.  For whatever motivation, there's others who amplify.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Cuomo was ignorant.  DeSantis and Abbott both know exactly what they are doing.


Not just Cuomo.  Cuomo and Levine.  They both sent known covid patients back to nursing homes.  They should boh be held responsible.

And, no, it wasn‘t ignorance.  Why would you include liability immunity if you had no clue there might be a risk?  They knew it was a risk, and they chose to do it anyway.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Not just Cuomo.  Cuomo and Levine.  They both sent known covid patients back to nursing homes.  They should boh be held responsible.
> 
> And, no, it wasn‘t ignorance.  Why would you include liability immunity if you had no clue there might be a risk?  They knew it was a risk, and they chose to do it anyway.


OK, maybe your not EOTL.  He loved Cuomo and wanted him to run for President.  Let's have an audit.  Let's look at all the back & forth on email & text.  The truth always comes out


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> No reason, other than trying to avoid a hospital shit show like they had in Arizona.
> 
> You see, if CA had the same per capita covid death rate as AZ, an additional 36,000 people would have died.
> 
> 36,000 extra deaths is what those ivory tower elitists call “a bad thing”.


Hospital shit show? Our ICUs never were full and had to turn away people. So if you got sick and needed care you had it. Now unfortunately like everywhere else in the US many operations, exams, were not scheduled and so that did affect people with other diseases (cancer, etc). 

CA per million didn't do much better case wise vs AZ. We just have different populations which have different health issues. A lot of our deaths occurred on the reservations.

And so it isn't like CA did anything good. CO has about the same total cases per million as CA, but 300 or so less deaths per million? Why?
NM has about exactly the same cases per million as CA but 500 more deaths per million? Why? Hint they have lots of people living on reservations. 

Etc etc. You conveniently and consistently ignore the above numbers because it doesn't fit into your mold/mindset of lockdowns work. Both CO and NM went the lockdown route similar to CA. Similar cases per million, but vastly different deaths per million. 

Speaking of cases...CA has a hair less than 2 million active cases right now. AZ has about 64k.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> I agree that the problems come in communication.  It's been poor.  The policy makers might or might not be getting good information, and frequently, they are not considering a full enough set of stakeholders. If you're not at the table, right?   We needed transparent, well informed communication from the start, and we didn't get it.  We deserve better, and I think most everyone is frustrated.
> 
> As a society, too many want to divide us into camps, and dismiss others if their opinion doesn't conform.  We're not listening to each other's stories.  Families are getting divided. For what?  It's really sad.
> 
> The misinformation and conspiracy theories are initiated by just a few, and it's not by Johnny.  For whatever motivation, there's others who amplify.


I wholeheartedly agree with this actually. Very well thought out.

but it’s not just division though…some groups feel (rightly or wrongly) they are held in active contempt by others, particularly when they dare to question their truth.  This is true whether the blm activist who thinks they aren’t being listened to, or the sturgis roadster who wonders why the media is going after him but not Obama because his party was “vaccinated and sophisticated”.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Don't forget the many times you have compared the size of the virus to the pitch of the mask fabric.


I find it amusing when the discussion on cloth/surgical masks goes down the road of filtration, leading to them subsequently being dismissed as face diapers.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> We both get each other.


If the talk turns to book banning I'm not so sure.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> *I find it amusing *when the discussion on cloth/surgical masks goes down the road of filtration, leading to them subsequently being dismissed as face diapers.


Hahahahaha, so amusing hahahahha.  Folks losing their job, hahahahahah.  Kids forced to wear a mask even though they obeyed their parents the first time for the jab and parents promised them jab=no mask and we can all go back to normal....... hahahahaha, so amusing and hahahahahaha so funny. I find it odd when people are forced into a horrible decision about jab or no job. That's fucking evil, to mess with one's mind and try and control it with liars who claim to be "experts."  Experts my ass.  They sold their soul like you obviously did and now have to deal with that decison.  Game is over and good wins, yay!!! California will be one big Class Action.  Everyone with a brain that is still a no for the jab, will have to get fired, if they got guts to do it.  The nurses are on the front line and many are 100% a no for jab.  That is not amusing and should WTFing people up but as long as evil is among us giving evil advice, then people will still make evil decisions.  Hahahahahahahahahaha, so amusing!!!


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If the talk turns to book banning I'm not so sure.


No, I understand evil and good, light & darkness, Jesus & Satan. I'm not for banning books.  I think you should read whatever you like.  I'm not for forcing kids to wear a mask all day at school and be taught some crap in books they push.  I would pull my kid out so fast today if they were younger.  What a bunch of BS they push on kids these days!  Evil is pushing hate books that divide and has evil in the hidden message in the book is what I would stay away from.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> Universities are not controlled environments any more than large businesses or other institutions.


Not really my point about control.  I'm talking about the studies themselves are in a controlled environment because they have to isolate the variables they are testing (that's my layman's explanation).  Which is the proper way to conduct science but doesn't always translate to the real world.  As a matter of note, the biggest difference between universities/education vs. the private sector is tenure.  Tenure is a significant limiting factor on accountability.



Roadrunner said:


> How do you pick and choose which "expert" you trust?


That's the $1 million question, but I don't think were talking about asking your Uber driver for medical advice.  Where talking about which epidemiologist are we supposed to believe? Should I believe the Fox expert or the CNN expert?  I say do your own research, take everything with a grain of salt and make the decision that's best for your family.  Be accountable for those decisions.  I have an issue when politicians cherry pick their experts to make my personal health choices.   Is this the perfect solution, nope, far from it.  There is the larger public health policy issues and people are going to make the wrong decisions.  Some will make the wrong decision and then not be accountable...which is very common these days with the growth of the "victim mentality".   Individual freedom is not the perfect solution put it is far more consistent with the values our Country was founded on, which also includes the assumption of risk.

At the end of the day I can live with the restrictions for myself as an adult, but I can't condone what has been done to our children.  It's reprehensible what we have done to them in the name of safety theater.  Those that claim that mandating masks for all children is for their safety are either 1) lying, they are really more concerned about getting Covid from a kid or 2) so overcome with fear that its destroyed their common sense.   Let kids learn, smile and laugh, but most importantly let them breath.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Update on San Diego County Covid and kids:
> 
> 99.95% of age 0-19 have not been hospitalized with Covid in the last 18 months.  (525 hospitalizations vs population of 867,245)
> 99.9998% of age 0-19 have not died with Covid in the last 18 months.  (2 deaths vs population of 867,245)


Those numbers seem real scary to me. I have changed my stance. The better start wearing masks that don't help, but do virtue signal that their hearts are in the right place.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> That’s why the recent tech tendency to censor info is so dangerous.


It may be the most dangerous thing to our society in all honesty. 

And most people don't know, don't care, are fine with it, etc.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Back in the fall I had a secondary bacterial infection that nearly killed me which they think resulted from a weakened immune system from covid. I knew the antibiotic wasn’t working but my gp and specialist insisted that I play out the entire course, even one night when I was on the floor in agony screaming in front of my kids. I insisted on being switched instead of going off and taking another culture. Doctors argued but gave in. It saves my life the doctors conceded.
> 
> same Story on covid…day 10 couldn’t breath…it was at the beginning and they didn’t know what to do…I told my doc put me in a steroid. Doc said it kept me out of the hospital saved my life maybe.
> 
> 2008 my financial advisor told me to hold certain assets.  I told her the bottom was about to drop out.  She called me crazy. I was spared the worst (my younger sibling did not listen and bought at the top of a bubble)
> 
> no you don’t listen to you mechanic for cancer.  You do assume the experts are idiots and rather than defer you question the hell out of them. The internet is also the great info leveler which is why the experts have been routinely been beaten by knowledgeable outsiders.  The entire idea of the enlightenment was not to follow blindly but to think critically. That’s why the recent tech tendency to censor info is so dangerous.


At the end of the day you have to be your own advocate.  My dad had some severe complications after a surgery.  My mom told the doctor that he was dehydrated.  The doctor scolded my mom "what do you know hydration".  He adamantly denied that that was the problem.  After some back and forth and advocacy from the nurse they pumped him full of fluids.  He was back to normal in less than a day.

The problem is not that some doctors and experts are stupid.  The problem is they're arrogant and are not to be questioned.  It's the same arrogance from politicians and public health officials that think they know what's best for everyone.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Not really my point about control.  I'm talking about the studies themselves are in a controlled environment because they have to isolate the variables they are testing (that's my layman's explanation).  Which is the proper way to conduct science but doesn't always translate to the real world.  As a matter of note, the biggest difference between universities/education vs. the private sector is tenure.  Tenure is a significant limiting factor on accountability.
> 
> 
> That's the $1 million question, but I don't think were talking about asking your Uber driver for medical advice.  Where talking about which epidemiologist are we supposed to believe? Should I believe the Fox expert or the CNN expert?  I say do your own research, take everything with a grain of salt and make the decision that's best for your family.  Be accountable for those decisions.  I have an issue when politicians cherry pick their experts to make my personal health choices.   Is this the perfect solution, nope, far from it.  There is the larger public health policy issues and people are going to make the wrong decisions.  Some will make the wrong decision and then not be accountable...which is very common these days with the growth of the "victim mentality".   Individual freedom is not the perfect solution put it is far more consistent with the values our Country was founded on, which also includes the assumption of risk.
> 
> At the end of the day I can live with the restrictions for myself as an adult, but I can't condone what has been done to our children.  It's reprehensible what we have done to them in the name of safety theater.  Those that claim that mandating masks for all children is for their safety are either 1) lying, they are really more concerned about getting Covid from a kid or 2) so overcome with fear that its destroyed their common sense.   Let kids learn, smile and laugh, but most importantly let them breath.


You're after tenure now?

Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without actually saying "I don't know what I'm talking about".


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> You're after tenure now?
> 
> Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without actually saying "I don't know what I'm talking about".


I have always hated tenure, but this is the first time I could sneak it into the conversation.  Was that too much of a stretch?

I'd say about 50% of the time I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think it sounds really good.  Your the fact checker, do you think its less than 50%?  I'm open to revising downward.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Not really.  Politicians who think they are above the rules are dime a dozen in both parties.
> 
> I am much more angry at the deliberate incompetence which results in deaths.  Cuomo and Levine for restocking the nursing homses with fresh covid patients.  DeSantis and Abbott for blocking mask rules in the middle of an outbreak.


There should be no mandate for masks…if you are concerned, wear one, if not, don’t.  The hospital I’ll is yours to pay if needed.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *That's the $1 million question.*  Where talking about which epidemiologist are we supposed to believe? Should I believe the Fox expert or the CNN expert? ((no)) * I say do your own research, take everything with a grain of salt and make the decision that's best for your family.* *Be accountable* for those decisions.  *I have an issue when politicians cherry pick their experts to make my personal health choices.*
> At the end of the day I can live with the restrictions for myself as an adult, but *I can't condone what has been done to our children.*  It's reprehensible what we have done to them in the name of safety theater.  Those that claim that mandating masks for all children is for their safety are either 1) lying, they are really more concerned about getting Covid from a kid or 2) so overcome with fear that its destroyed their common sense.  * Let kids learn, smile and laugh, but most importantly let them breath.*


They do it in Religion too.  Excellent takes and I highlighted what stood out for me.  Paul warned of this very poison from the "experts" or teachers of reading.  The apostle Paul wrote a warning for the church and we should peak at this too: “The time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, *to suit their own desires*,* they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear” *(2 Timothy 4:3).
The Greek word translated “itching” literally means “to itch, rub, scratch, or tickle.” To want one’s ears *“tickled”* is to desire *massages rather than messages*—*sermons that charm rather than challenge*, *entertain rather than edify, and please rather than preach*. The people Paul warns about will have, as one commentator put it, “ears which have to be continually titillated with novelties.”  ((Basically, if you tickle his ear, you will be licking it forever to keep him or her happy with falsehoods and lies forever.

“Itching ears” is a figure of speech that refers to people’s desires, felt needs, or wants. It is these desires that impel a person to believe whatever he _wants_ to believe rather than the actual truth itself. When people have “itching ears,” they decide for themselves what is right or wrong, and they seek out others to support their notions. “Itching ears” are concerned with what feels good or comfortable, not with the truth—after all, truth is often _un_comfortable. Paul’s warning is that the church would one day contain those who only opened their ears to those who would scratch their “itch.”

*Those with “itching ears” only want teachers who will assure them that all is well, teachers who say, “Peace, peace . . . when there is no peace”*

Some of the early followers of Jesus complained about some of the Lord’s words: “Many of his disciples said, ʻThis is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’  ((most can;t and wont))  From this time* many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him”* (John 6:60, 66). Walking away from hard truth is easy to do because it's hard.

The truth hurts and I wont itch anyone's ear except my wife and she get's it tickled all the time and she tickles me.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I have always hated tenure, but this is the first time I could sneak it into the conversation.  Was that too much of a stretch?
> 
> I'd say about 50% of the time I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think it sounds really good.  Your the fact checker, do you think its less than 50%?  I'm open to revising downward.


There was an article posted recently in one of these threads about researchers who reported being pressured to modify the reports of their results.  Do you know what is the greatest bulwark against such abuse?  Tenure.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Hospital shit show? Our ICUs never were full and had to turn away people. So if you got sick and needed care you had it. Now unfortunately like everywhere else in the US many operations, exams, were not scheduled and so that did affect people with other diseases (cancer, etc).
> 
> CA per million didn't do much better case wise vs AZ. We just have different populations which have different health issues. A lot of our deaths occurred on the reservations.
> 
> And so it isn't like CA did anything good. CO has about the same total cases per million as CA, but 300 or so less deaths per million? Why?
> NM has about exactly the same cases per million as CA but 500 more deaths per million? Why? Hint they have lots of people living on reservations.
> 
> Etc etc. You conveniently and consistently ignore the above numbers because it doesn't fit into your mold/mindset of lockdowns work. Both CO and NM went the lockdown route similar to CA. Similar cases per million, but vastly different deaths per million.
> 
> Speaking of cases...CA has a hair less than 2 million active cases right now. AZ has about 64k.


By any measure, Arizona had far more deaths per capita than CA.  

You guys messed up.

Now, would it have been better if CA had closed the bars and casinos instead of the schools?  Yes.  

But that's different from saying the best policy was to do nothing.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> By any measure, Arizona had far more deaths per capita than CA.
> 
> You guys messed up.


Try explaining why NM with the same policies as CA and the same cases per million did worse than CA?

Then explain CO which mirrored CA has the same cases per million but less deaths?


----------



## Desert Hound

Terminator?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> At the end of the day you have to be your own advocate.  My dad had some severe complications after a surgery.  My mom told the doctor that he was dehydrated.  The doctor scolded my mom "what do you know hydration".  He adamantly denied that that was the problem.  After some back and forth and advocacy from the nurse they pumped him full of fluids.  He was back to normal in less than a day.
> 
> The problem is not that some doctors and experts are stupid.  The problem is they're arrogant and are not to be questioned.  It's the same arrogance from politicians and public health officials that think they know what's best for everyone.


You sir are on fire today.  I'm serious.  Freedom speaks through you and I appreciate that.  Thank you


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> There was an article posted recently in one of these threads about researchers who reported being pressured to modify the reports of their results.  Do you know what is the greatest bulwark against such abuse?  Tenure.


Fair, but its also the greatest bulwark protecting bad teachers.   With other legal protections like wrongful termination I question the current benefits of tenure.   Maybe the sentiment on the right will change to favoring tenure given today's cancel culture.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> You sir are on fire today.  I'm serious.  Freedom speaks through you and I appreciate that.  Thank you


Thanks, but some days a blind squirrel just stumbles into more than one acorn.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> There should be no mandate for masks…if you are concerned, wear one, if not, don’t.  The hospital I’ll is yours to pay if needed.


You seem to forget that the mask is there to protect other people- not the wearer.

By that standard:   I will wear a mask if I am concerned.  The hospital bill is yours to pay if needed.

Doesn’t sound as good, does it?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Thanks, but some days a blind squirrel just stumbles into more than one acorn.


Nice try.  I have a good idea who the Lions are and you are one of them.  Lions needs to help the blind squirrels find the nuts.  Attention all Lions who might be sleeping still.  It's time to WTF up and start roaring.  Keep in mine each lion has his or her own roar.  Let's respect what each lion brings to the table and kick some ass why we still have a chance.  I rolled up my sleeves three years ago.  I said Wendy would kick ass for the woman and look at her go.  Good job Wat Fly


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Not really my point about control.  I'm talking about the studies themselves are in a controlled environment because they have to isolate the variables they are testing (that's my layman's explanation).  Which is the proper way to conduct science but doesn't always translate to the real world.  As a matter of note, the biggest difference between universities/education vs. the private sector is tenure.  Tenure is a significant limiting factor on accountability.
> 
> 
> That's the $1 million question, but I don't think were talking about asking your Uber driver for medical advice.  Where talking about which epidemiologist are we supposed to believe? Should I believe the Fox expert or the CNN expert?  I say do your own research, take everything with a grain of salt and make the decision that's best for your family.  Be accountable for those decisions.  I have an issue when politicians cherry pick their experts to make my personal health choices.   Is this the perfect solution, nope, far from it.  There is the larger public health policy issues and people are going to make the wrong decisions.  Some will make the wrong decision and then not be accountable...which is very common these days with the growth of the "victim mentality".   Individual freedom is not the perfect solution put it is far more consistent with the values our Country was founded on, which also includes the assumption of risk.
> 
> At the end of the day I can live with the restrictions for myself as an adult, but I can't condone what has been done to our children.  It's reprehensible what we have done to them in the name of safety theater.  Those that claim that mandating masks for all children is for their safety are either 1) lying, they are really more concerned about getting Covid from a kid or 2) so overcome with fear that its destroyed their common sense.   Let kids learn, smile and laugh, but most importantly let them breath.


I'm not lying and I'm not fearful.  You're peddling nonsense.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> At the end of the day you have to be your own advocate.  My dad had some severe complications after a surgery.  My mom told the doctor that he was dehydrated.  The doctor scolded my mom "what do you know hydration".  He adamantly denied that that was the problem.  After some back and forth and advocacy from the nurse they pumped him full of fluids.  He was back to normal in less than a day.
> 
> The problem is not that some doctors and experts are stupid.  The problem is they're arrogant and are not to be questioned.  It's the same arrogance from politicians and public health officials that think they know what's best for everyone.


You should submit that to Grace's Journal of Anecdotes.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Fair, but its also the greatest bulwark protecting bad teachers.   With other legal protections like wrongful termination I question the current benefits of tenure.   Maybe the sentiment on the right will change to favoring tenure given today's cancel culture.


Bad teachers don't get tenure.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> *I'm not lying and I'm not fearful*


How about one who is deceived about one's true self?  You live in your shadow 100% of the time on here.  Show us your light Espola or some say the soft side.  No one is full of hate unless they were born to hate.  I can't help people who hate for a living.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Fair, but its also the greatest bulwark protecting bad teachers.   With other legal protections like wrongful termination I question the current benefits of tenure.   Maybe the sentiment on the right will change to favoring tenure given today's cancel culture.


In the humanities, right leaning faculty can't survive long enough to get tenure.  The left controls all the review panels.

You can try being a conservative sociologist.  Good luck getting published or keeping your post.

The fight will be more about what classes are required.  Eg- do ethnic studies classes count towards core credits?  Are all students required to take ethnic studies classes?

Requiring ethnic studies is one way to create guaranteed positions for ethnic studies professors.  It also qualifies as ridiculous political indoctrination.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> In the humanities, right leaning faculty can't survive long enough to get tenure.  The left controls all the review panels.
> 
> You can try being a conservative sociologist.  Good luck getting published or keeping your post.
> 
> The fight will be more about what classes are required.  Eg- do ethnic studies classes count towards core credits?  Are all students required to take ethnic studies classes?
> 
> Requiring ethnic studies is one way to create guaranteed positions for ethnic studies professors.  It also qualifies as ridiculous political indoctrination.


What does a left leaning accounting professor look like? 

All debits and no credits? Bada bing! I'll be here all week, please tip your waitress.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> In the humanities, right leaning faculty can't survive long enough to get tenure.  The left controls all the review panels.
> 
> You can try being a conservative sociologist.  Good luck getting published or keeping your post.
> 
> The fight will be more about what classes are required.  Eg- do ethnic studies classes count towards core credits?  Are all students required to take ethnic studies classes?
> 
> Requiring ethnic studies is one way to create guaranteed positions for ethnic studies professors.  It also qualifies as ridiculous political indoctrination.


I know this to be true in some places.  I debated most of my Professors and they made my life hard because they hated a student asking them questions.  Some of them are big babies and think their always right and how dare you ask a question.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Fair, but its also the greatest bulwark protecting bad teachers.   With other legal protections like wrongful termination I question the current benefits of tenure.   Maybe the sentiment on the right will change to favoring tenure given today's cancel culture.


Here is the thing. With tenure or not. These professors doing research are chasing GRANT money. That comes from private companies, ngo's, gov agencies, etc. It can be quite lucrative. 

You think getting grants depends on studying or researching the right thing or reporting a certain way? Of course it does.


----------



## crush

THE NUREMBERG CODE: THE 10 CODES OF THE LAW FOR ALL HUMANS ON EARTH

Code #1 ((the only code you need to know))
The *voluntary consent *of the *human subject is absolutely essential.* ((I rest my case)).  This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, *without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; *((need I say more? Lose job or take experiement?)) and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved, as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that, before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the *experimental subject*, there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; *all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected;* and the effects upon his health or person, which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> You seem to forget that the mask is there to protect other people- not the wearer.


That’s what the Vax is for.


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> That’s what the Vax* was supposed to be *for.


I fixed it for you....lol   That's what we were told and sold Kicker.  Scammers lied and sold us a bag of shit at best and at worse a bio weapon.  It was sold to all of us by the "experts" we trusted.  Science Magicians is what I call some of them, moo!  They told us it was to keep us from getting the virus and spreading the virus and if one took the recommended jabs, all would go away the next day and we would all be back to normal.  That is 100% a crock of shit and false and from the looks of things, were never going back to normal.  They ((the experts)) also said if you get jabbed, no need to wear a mask ever again.  That is 100% bullshit and a bold lie to boot and they laugh in our faces.  Jab or no jab, were all effected by this Kicker.  Barak had the best bday bash any 60 year old I know has had, like ever.  Free weed to all guest and no mask for them but hey, they say our children and your children and you have to wear a mask 24/7 and get jabbed as much as they say.  How long will you allow them to do this to you and your family bro? How many more false flags does one need to see to WTF up?  This is serious shit.  Now their saying if you dont get jab, you can't work here or there or even shop at their fucking store.  Not all places are doing this but lot's are and that is not cool and red line has been drawn forever.


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #2

The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.  *


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> I fixed it for you....lol   That's what we were told and sold Kicker.  Scammers lied and sold us a bag of shit at best and at worse a bio weapon.  It was sold to all of us by the "experts" we trusted.  Science Magicians is what I call some of them, moo!  They told us it was to keep us from getting the virus and spreading the virus and if one took the recommended jabs, all would go away the next day and we would all be back to normal.  That is 100% a crock of shit and false and from the looks of things, were never going back to normal.  They ((the experts)) also said if you get jabbed, no need to wear a mask ever again.  That is 100% bullshit and a bold lie to boot and they laugh in our faces.  Jab or no jab, were all effected by this Kicker.  Barak had the best bday bash any 60 year old I know has had, like ever.  Free weed to all guest and no mask for them but hey, they say our children and your children and you have to wear a mask 24/7 and get jabbed as much as they say.  How long will you allow them to do this to you and your family bro? How many more false flags does one need to see to WTF up?  This is serious shit.  Now their saying if you dont get jab, you can't work here or there or even shop at their fucking store.  Not all places are doing this but lot's are and that is not cool and red line has been drawn forever.


No it was correct the way I wrote it. Doesn’t mean you have to get one if you don’t feel you don’t need to be protected.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> *Nuremberg Code #2
> 
> The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.  *


Crush, one thing I know for certain, I feel pretty good about you not getting COVID.  You're on this message board 24/7.  Smart move brother...smart move.  No need for jabs or mask.  Just stay indoors at home posting on socalsoccer all day.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Crush, one thing I know for certain, I feel pretty good about you not getting COVID.  You're on this message board 24/7.  Smart move brother...smart move.  No need for jabs or mask.  Just stay indoors at home posting on socalsoccer all day.


Hahaha.  I'm trying to make calls in between looking for work.  I'm not good at cold calling over the phone.  People are freaked out right now so going outside to sell is next to impossible.  I'm sure trying NoCal Dad who works where again?  Actually, I might start asking for help to pay help pay my bills so I can do this full time.  I lost everything so my bills are super low dude.  Would you help Crush and his family out so I dont have to miss out on my dd senior year?  HelppayCrushesBillsonly.com.  Pay my rent, gas card, electricity, water, food, car payment, insurance and just a little get around money and I'm good.  Once the Bills are paid for, then no more money needed until next month.  That's all I ever wanted and it's all I need.  I sure dont want to be a slave to $1,000,000 mortgage right about now and two car payments and if I dont get stabbed with the jab I lose my job and just SOL and too bad Charlie and their goes my stuff and my my wife...lol. I got outside sales job interest in TX and Fl.  The question is this:  Do I leave now and tell my dd goodbye during her greatest year as a senior and see her at next years graduation or do I try and make a buck in this God forsaken environment of misinformation, hate, mistrust, division, pay to play politics & in sports, mask or no mask and of course, the jab or no jab.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> Hahaha.  I'm trying to make calls in between looking for work.  I'm not good at cold calling over the phone.  People are freaked out right now so going outside to sell is next to impossible.  I'm sure trying NoCal Dad who works where again?  Actually, I might start asking for help to pay help pay my bills so I can do this full time.  I lost everything so my bills are super low dude.  Would you help Crush and his family out so I dont have to miss out on my dd senior year?  HelppayCrushesBillsonly.com.  Pay my rent, gas card, electricity, water, food, car payment, insurance and just a little get around money and I'm good.  Once the Bills are paid for, then no more money needed until next month.  That's all I ever wanted and it's all I need.  I sure dont want to be a slave to $1,000,000 mortgage right about now and two car payments and if I dont get stabbed with the jab I lose my job and just SOL and too bad Charlie and their goes my stuff and my my wife...lol. I got outside sales job interest in TX and Fl.  The question is this:  Do I leave now and tell my dd goodbye during her greatest year as a senior and see her at next years graduation or do I try and make a buck in this God forsaken environment of misinformation, hate, mistrust, division, pay to play politics & in sports, mask or no mask and of course, the jab or no jab.


Maybe you could ask Dom for some cash back on that Platinum membership?

In all seriousness.  Hope it works out for you.  But man, I'd stay away from these boards if it's that bad for you. 

I got 4 bike rides in this week man.  The weight is dropping off, people are noticing.  The jabs have been life changers for me.  My lungs are so strong right now, I barely even notice the mask.  Feels great brother.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe you could ask Dom for some cash back on that Platinum membership?
> 
> In all seriousness.  Hope it works out for you.  But man, I'd stay away from these boards if it's that bad for you.
> 
> I got 4 bike rides in this week man.  The weight is dropping off, people are noticing.  The jabs have been life changers for me.  My lungs are so strong right now, I barely even notice the mask.  Feels great brother.


I have mobile phone dude and can read the forum from where Im at.  Funny you think I'm in doors all day.  Bro, I live in Laguna and being in doors is lame.  It pings me so I read. I had 15 messages today and 3 PMs. This is my ESPN for now and my poke game.  Plus were in a war if you didnt know. Where do you work bro or how what line of work are you in?  You need to share so I understand your happiness and why your so excited about the nest round of shots. I;m happy for you truly and your the only one who is writing like you.  Please answer where you work, thanks


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #3*

The* experiment* should be so designed and based on the *results of animal experimentation *((based on my research, the animals that were or have been tested have all died)) and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study, that the anticipated results will* justify* the *performance of the experiment.  *((Ya, no thank you))


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Hahahahaha, so amusing hahahahha.  Folks losing their job, hahahahahah.  Kids forced to wear a mask even though they obeyed their parents the first time for the jab and parents promised them jab=no mask and we can all go back to normal....... hahahahaha, so amusing and hahahahahaha so funny. I find it odd when people are forced into a horrible decision about jab or no job. That's fucking evil, to mess with one's mind and try and control it with liars who claim to be "experts."  Experts my ass.  They sold their soul like you obviously did and now have to deal with that decison.  Game is over and good wins, yay!!! California will be one big Class Action.  Everyone with a brain that is still a no for the jab, will have to get fired, if they got guts to do it.  The nurses are on the front line and many are 100% a no for jab.  That is not amusing and should WTFing people up but as long as evil is among us giving evil advice, then people will still make evil decisions.  Hahahahahahahahahaha, so amusing!!!


Well, after reading this in your honor when got home I took a cloth absorption mask, got out my black electric tape, and cut off pieces to spell out EVIL across the front.  I'll be sure to wear it if I find myself in a frame of mind where the world seems to be one big battle between the forces of light and darkness, with the sole purpose of the conflict being to decide whether its the angels or devils that get to crack my balls. 

Maybe you will find this funny.  Or maybe not.  Ms. Evil starts reading something aloud to me tonight.  I say that's some crazy shit, what is that?  She says guess.  I say you're reading some weird thing off the soccer forums again, aren't you?  She laughs and says no it's your son's assigned reading from Crime and Punishment.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, after reading this in your honor when got home I took a cloth absorption mask, got out my black electric tape, and cut off pieces to spell out EVIL across the front.  I'll be sure to wear it if I find myself in a frame of mind where the world seems to be one big battle between the forces of light and darkness, with the sole purpose of the conflict being to decide whether its the angels or devils that get to crack my balls.
> 
> Maybe you will find this funny.  Or maybe not.  Ms. Evil starts reading something aloud to me tonight.  I say that's some crazy shit, what is that?  She says guess.  I say you're reading some weird thing off the soccer forums again, aren't you?  She laughs and says no it's your son's assigned reading from Crime and Punishment.


This is 100% about your soul bro and the decision the soul makes everyday and not your balls.  No one is out to crack your balls.  It's a choice of where one wants to be in their brain.  Light or Darkness.  It's all choice.  I'm here to help, 100%.  Do you know how many people in soccer despise me?  Hate is good word too.  I told them guys never to mess with me and I dont care about all this and that and this list and that list.  They need to say sorry and then I'll be good.  It was evil to the core where I come from and when kids ((my kid)) I impacted, I punch hard with my mouth.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Maybe you will find this funny.  Or maybe not.  Ms. Evil starts reading something aloud to me tonight.  I say that's some crazy shit, what is that?  She says guess.  I say you're reading some weird thing off the soccer forums again, aren't you?  She laughs and says no it's your son's assigned reading from Crime and Punishment.


My wife is sleeping but when she wakes up, I will share word for word what her FB friend posted last night.  I dont want to "add" my flavor to the story. I want the true quote for you.  It was not funny at all.  What do you do for work?  Also, do you believe in God?


----------



## Grace T.

So I’ve been reading Scott Gottlieb on the boosters and it’s interesting, particularly coming from him given how deeply he’s neck deep in big pharma. But I’ve felt he’s a thoughtful guy that’s even acknowledged his own mistakes such as the overreach on the early npis. Basically have been trying to understand why they are recommending a booster (which isn’t adapted to the delta) 8 months out. Most childhood vaccines operate this way: you need multiple exposures to build long term immunity spaced out over years. It’s that second shot spaced out anywhere from 2 months to 4 years which really gives you a boost (different for dtap for example than varicella) and long term immunity. Well his argument is that Pfizer and moderna did their two shot protocols because of what the fda was demanding by way of numbers and timing. The fda goofed, in other words, because of the short window for testing (the protective numbers decline over time which is why we saw breakthroughs on 3 senators 8 months out) necessitated by rushing the vaccine and because of the demand by the fda (and the trump admin) for high numbers so this thing could end. Both shots are essentially prime when the proper protocol would have been prime and then 8 months-1 year out another but that would have meant Some unknown number of people (mostly elderly and immunocompromised) would have been vulnerable during this time period.  

so knowing hindsight is 20/20 but acknowledging this is probably yet another expert goof that they should have taken into account based on prior vaccine experience, here’s my read: the protocol probably should have been different for the elderly than everyone else; such a different protocol would have reduced the chances of myocarditis in young people and other side effects since they seem tied to the second shot (and now it’s unclear since there hasn’t been extensive testing what that third shot will do); they will mandate the third shot; we have yet to see if the third shot (unmodified against the delta) Will produce against the delta the desired result: it may substantially end these waves or if the delta continues to mutate (this virus though only has certain limited room to mutate so it will eventually run out of tricks) a fourth modified vaccine will be required and will be mandated.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *Here’s my read:* the protocol probably should have been different for the elderly than everyone else; such a different protocol would have reduced the* chances of myocarditis* in young people and other side effects since they seem tied to the second shot (and now it’s unclear since there hasn’t been extensive testing what that third shot will do); they will mandate the third shot;


Here's my read as of today Grace.  No goof excuse is allowed in war.  99% in my brain this is a bio weapon mixed with fear and control.  The push to get vaxed is so obvious.  The other 1% is a mix bag of lies and a way for some people to make a killing.  No jab, no job.  No jab, no entry.  No jab, no buy and sell.  The FB post last night that my wife shared is 100% about Myocarditis.


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #4*

The* experiment *should be so conducted as to *avoid* *all *unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> At the end of the day you have to be your own advocate.  My dad had some severe complications after a surgery.  My mom told the doctor that he was dehydrated.  The doctor scolded my mom "what do you know hydration".  He adamantly denied that that was the problem.  After some back and forth and advocacy from the nurse they pumped him full of fluids.  He was back to normal in less than a day.
> 
> The problem is not that some doctors and experts are stupid.  The problem is they're arrogant and are not to be questioned.  It's the same arrogance from politicians and public health officials that think they know what's best for everyone.


Accountability, sufficient staffing, are important, as is asking questions.  Knowing which questions to ask can be more difficult.  In the case of medical care, having additional people who can help / advocate including for those hospitalized can make a difference.  With restrictions on visitors, it's even harder to be able to do that.


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #5

No experiment* should be conducted, where there is an a *priori reason* to believe that* death or disabling injury will occur*; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental *physicians also serve as subjects.*


----------



## crush

Is this fake news from the Euro database?  This was through July 2021.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So I’ve been reading Scott Gottlieb on the boosters and it’s interesting, particularly coming from him given how deeply he’s neck deep in big pharma. But I’ve felt he’s a thoughtful guy that’s even acknowledged his own mistakes such as the overreach on the early npis. Basically have been trying to understand why they are recommending a booster (which isn’t adapted to the delta) 8 months out. Most childhood vaccines operate this way: you need multiple exposures to build long term immunity spaced out over years. It’s that second shot spaced out anywhere from 2 months to 4 years which really gives you a boost (different for dtap for example than varicella) and long term immunity. Well his argument is that Pfizer and moderna did their two shot protocols because of what the fda was demanding by way of numbers and timing. The fda goofed, in other words, because of the short window for testing (the protective numbers decline over time which is why we saw breakthroughs on 3 senators 8 months out) necessitated by rushing the vaccine and because of the demand by the fda (and the trump admin) for high numbers so this thing could end. Both shots are essentially prime when the proper protocol would have been prime and then 8 months-1 year out another but that would have meant Some unknown number of people (mostly elderly and immunocompromised) would have been vulnerable during this time period.
> 
> so knowing hindsight is 20/20 but acknowledging this is probably yet another expert goof that they should have taken into account based on prior vaccine experience, here’s my read: the protocol probably should have been different for the elderly than everyone else; such a different protocol would have reduced the chances of myocarditis in young people and other side effects since they seem tied to the second shot (and now it’s unclear since there hasn’t been extensive testing what that third shot will do); they will mandate the third shot; we have yet to see if the third shot (unmodified against the delta) Will produce against the delta the desired result: it may substantially end these waves or if the delta continues to mutate (this virus though only has certain limited room to mutate so it will eventually run out of tricks) a fourth modified vaccine will be required and will be mandated.


explains why UK did well by delaying the second shot.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Is this fake news from the Euro database?  This was through July 2021.
> 
> View attachment 11474


Yes, this is fake news meant to spread fear and disinformation.  This has been fact checked and debunked.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Yes, this is fake news meant to spread fear and disinformation.  This has been fact checked and debunked.


OK, so no deaths or injuries in Euro?  It's hard to get the facts straight Rr.


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> OK, so no deaths or injuries in Euro?  It's hard to get the facts straight Rr.


I would have to look up the data.  There's not 0 risk from these vaccines (or any vaccine), and the risks can be different depending on the particular vaccine.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> *I would have to look up the data.* *There's not 0 risk* ((ya I know)) from these vaccines (or any vaccine) ((this is NOT a vaccine)), and the risks can be different depending on the particular vaccine.


Please see what you can find regarding the actual risk to death and injury regarding the Spike Protein made out of Wuhan.  I think if you claim debunked news, then it's important to back up your claim.  I showed stats.  Where are your stats Rr?  Please show the debunk results, the link and the true numbers, if you can find them...lol!  Maybe deaths from adverse effects is somewhere between 1-300,000 deaths?  Injuries is through the roof from what I hear but I guess it's lies too.  Check this out Sherlock.  The "experts" are blaming folks like me for catching the virus after they got two shots.  That's just what your itching ears want to hear.  Tickle lies is all you like so you can keep the good life.  You people hate God fearing and free thinking types and those who dare ask a question about this and that and what's in IT.  The tables are turning and you will be last if you keep up your attitude.  FDA approval will hit us next week and soon the assholes who love control, power & money will make their last stand.  It will fail but the damage will be done.  I can clearly see the board on the forum.  The die hard *Elitist *are most likely card caring* Atheist* and believe in being a *Communist *over being an American.  Some sold their soul for 30 coins and a taste of power.  No one wants to admit this except one of my pals from college debate class.  Dude and I stayed friends.  I asked him straight up.  Kneel with Joe and China or allow T's group reinstated because?  He said hands down Joe & China over T and his supporters being back in power.  What about cheating in the election I asked?  He said no cheating and t is the problem and his supporters.  This guy wears a mask 24/7 and got his shots.  Parents left him millions so he's set for life.  He get's me 100% and told me it's best I move out of the state because.


----------



## crush

The teenage witch star is blaming her kids for catching the virus and is mad they were not wearing a mask at school.  She already had the jabs so she certainly can;t blame something else.  Nope, it;s those damn kids fault.  This is sad, to blame your own kids.  Plus, I dont believe her.  Thoughts Roadrunner?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This is so funny!!!









						Zuck Finally Spills The Beans.... LOL
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Talk about a freaking salesman.  My gosh, this guy is desperate for more doses.  Anyone WHO says, "Let me be honest...." Run away and do NOT volunteer to roll up your sleeves anymore then you already have.  That's code for, "Let me lie some more and laugh in your face."  Once, twice three times the Jab....."  Run away!!!!









						Canada: Tyrant Trudeau aka 'Shadow Communist' Spills His Plans For The 'Unvaxxed'
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Roadrunner

crush said:


> Please see what you can find regarding the actual risk to death and injury regarding the Spike Protein made out of Wuhan.  I think if you claim debunked news, then it's important to back up your claim.  I showed stats.  Where are your stats Rr?  Please show the debunk results, the link and the true numbers, if you can find them...lol!  Maybe deaths from adverse effects is somewhere between 1-300,000 deaths?  Injuries is through the roof from what I hear but I guess it's lies too.  Check this out Sherlock.  The "experts" are blaming folks like me for catching the virus after they got two shots.  That's just what your itching ears want to hear.  Tickle lies is all you like so you can keep the good life.  You people hate God fearing and free thinking types and those who dare ask a question about this and that and what's in IT.  The tables are turning and you will be last if you keep up your attitude.  FDA approval will hit us next week and soon the assholes who love control, power & money will make their last stand.  It will fail but the damage will be done.  I can clearly see the board on the forum.  The die hard *Elitist *are most likely card caring* Atheist* and believe in being a *Communist *over being an American.  Some sold their soul for 30 coins and a taste of power.  No one wants to admit this except one of my pals from college debate class.  Dude and I stayed friends.  I asked him straight up.  Kneel with Joe and China or allow T's group reinstated because?  He said hands down Joe & China over T and his supporters being back in power.  What about cheating in the election I asked?  He said no cheating and t is the problem and his supporters.  This guy wears a mask 24/7 and got his shots.  Parents left him millions so he's set for life.  He get's me 100% and told me it's best I move out of the state because.


Well, I'm pretty sure that you could find the articles debunking this disinformation if you were motivated to do so.  Clearly you know how to Google and have some time in your hands. If you were truly looking for real data and information, I would be happy to take the time to post it for you. But, it's a beautiful Saturday, and I am enjoying it with my family.


----------



## crush

@Rr, my wife sent me scene shot and a pic.  Here are her words.  I will not sure pic of stuff all over her heart are but it's sad and true.  Try and debunk this.  Dare any of you.  Double dog dare any of you.  


It was cut off at the bottom but she is asking everyone to slow down and research and ask questions.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure that you could find the articles debunking this disinformation if you were motivated to do so.  Clearly you know how to Google and have some time in your hands. If you were truly looking for real data and information, I would be happy to take the time to post it for you. But, it's a beautiful Saturday, and I am enjoying it with my family.


Ask Kennedy and all the Marines how their doing.  Enjoy your Saturday bro.  Checkmate!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*"People who don't want the vaccine aren't "refusing" it.  You don't say a person is "refusing" to take anti-depressants.  Or "refusing" to get married. You can decline without refusing.  You decide what's best for you.  Refuse is a manipulative term, loaded with unfair moral pressure."  Ben from Irvine-*

I agree Ben.  Plus, they can only "encourage" folks who decline the jabs to reconsider rolling up their sleeve to take two for the team ((if they feel safe)) plus all the boosters THEY ((THE EXPERT DR. F)) say to take.  I'm shocked that people do what he recommends.  He's one dude with no clue.  I ain't never going to take this fraudsters advice.  Never never never.  The cops down under are nasty cops btw.  I do not see cops treating their neighbors in America like I see on TV down under and not named Fox or friend CNN.  This is real news and it's starting to get HOT!!!


----------



## crush

Cult leader? 

vaccine passport= baptism certificate
mask= hijab
priest=scientist
tenets=CDC guidelines
saints=Gates, Fauci
heretics=anti-vaxxers
holy forever communion= booster shots forever


----------



## NorCalDad

I've heard of the dark web....but apparently there's also the dumb web and I think I've found it.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> I've heard of the dark web....but apparently there's also the dumb web and I think I've found it.


Hey look, it's NoCal Dad enjoying his bike ride.  I hope you feel like a man now.


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #6*

The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.


----------



## Torros

"Anecdotes tell us what the data can’t: Vaccinated people appear to be getting the coronavirus at a surprisingly high rate. But exactly how often isn’t clear, nor is it certain how likely they are to spread the virus to others. And now, there’s growing concern that vaccinated people may be more vulnerable to serious illness than previously thought."


----------



## Grace T.

Hawaii has set all time case records for 3 days in a row. Despite high vaccination rate, mask mandate and indoor dining/bar restrictions.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> No one is out to crack your balls.


Oh I know.  My levels of existential angst are well within normal operating parameters.  My comment was meant for....uh...someone else.



crush said:


> It's a choice of where one wants to be in their brain.  Light or Darkness.  It's all choice.  I'm here to help, 100%.  Do you know how many people in soccer despise me?  Hate is good word too.


No hate from me.  I'm glad you're here.  I mostly read what people write, only rarely hit the clicks unless something sounds interesting.  The giant thing you posted awhile ago, however, did make me do a WTF head swivel.  What was that?  Some sort of lost tribe of Israel thing?  Anyway since you bring up brains, that's kind of my interest in these two threads to be completely upfront, although I think I pretty much got the contours now.  How metaphorical computers have this tendency to turn complexity, uncertainty, probabilistic stuff into either this or that.   Then it's just a hop skip and jump to light and darkness.  That's all of us, me included.  And lately seems like there's so much stuff floating around designed to help us get to precisely that place.



crush said:


> It was evil to the core where I come from.


IMO evil is abundant and comes in many forms.  Of course it's different to experience it in a visceral way.  I'm fortunate in that I only recall that once.  But you know sometimes the shot comes in high and hard.  You react, make your best dive like you've trained over and over but just can't push it wide.  9 times out of 10 you make that save.  But its a goal against you and the game moves on.  Bad luck.  You dig the ball out of the back of the net and keep playing.  No other choice really.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Oh I know.  My levels of existential angst are well within normal operating parameters.  My comment was meant for....uh...someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> No hate from me.  I'm glad you're here.  I mostly read what people write, only rarely hit the clicks unless something sounds interesting.  The giant thing you posted awhile ago, however, did make me do a WTF head swivel.  What was that?  Some sort of lost tribe of Israel thing?  Anyway since you bring up brains, that's kind of my interest in these two threads to be completely upfront, although I think I pretty much got the contours now.  How metaphorical computers have this tendency to turn complexity, uncertainty, probabilistic stuff into either this or that.   Then it's just a hop skip and jump to light and darkness.  That's all of us, me included.  And lately seems like there's so much stuff floating around designed to help us get to precisely that place.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO evil is abundant and comes in many forms.  Of course it's different to experience it in a visceral way.  I'm fortunate in that I only recall that once.  But you know sometimes the shot comes in high and hard.  You react, make your best dive like you've trained over and over but just can't push it wide.  9 times out of 10 you make that save.  But its a goal against you and the game moves on.  Bad luck.  You dig the ball out of the back of the net and keep playing.  No other choice really.


Cool stuff.  You are very talented writer btw.  It's getting heated with some people.  Remind me of the WTF head swirl moment and lost tribe of Israel please.  I dont know it all so if I said something that is off or just way out there, I'll be the first to say it was satire or or I was just playing around.  I'm going to go stealth after tomorrow. I might have some final words to all of you.  I need to see the board for at 7 days without commenting on every freaking post.  Let others have some, moo moments.  I need to also brush up on my talents and figure out a way to make a buck wearing a mask so I will be working.  I tried cold calling over the phone but folks are not in the mood to spend money.  Most are not sure they will be open next month.  That is true story.  I'm not going to make excuses anymore.  I just need to go out and say hi and see what happens.  I had to push the envelope with some old friends to see the board and they care for themselves first over my rights.  It is what it is and I'm certainly not surprised by a few of them and their back stabling to reach the top.  One of them hurt my feelings by just telling me to stop complaining all the time and get the vax or no vax, the choice is simple, one or the other but please stop complaining.  I said he is flat wrong because if the one person chooses no jab at work, he get's fired where the other guy obeys like a good worker and now he can buy & sell and have fun and entertainment like lakers and concerts plus the bars for booz...lol but the other guy is fired, loses his house and then his wife leaves him because she is woke and he's an anti=vaxxer.  Relationships are getting tested like no other time.


----------



## Grace T.

Here's the counter position to the booster.  It's going to scare the shit out of dad 4 and the others on team panic.  I posted the Gottleib position above.  This is the contra.  I don't know which is right, but note Campbell who did this review has been pro NPI pro vaccine.

The counter argument going around to boosters forever, at least for the non-elderly, non-immunocompromised, is that there has been quite a bit of data coming out that natural immunity is actually more robust than vaccine immunity just because it operates in a variety of different ways to stop infection, while the vaccines only operate on the spike protein.  So, it is possible that for the non-elderly, non-immunocompromised, which will need boosters perhaps multiple boosters, is that while vaccine immunity is at its highest, the best thing we can do to end this is TO ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE EXPOSED AND/OR INFECTED with the virus.  That has enormous implications including: 1) children should not be vaxxed...if the vax doesn't stop disease or even massively reduce hospitalizations, since they don't suffer from the severe form, it's probably better for them, particularly the under 12, to just get repeated exposures to the virus, 2) people while at a high level of immunity from the vaccine would need to risk natural exposure, 3) NPIS such as masks and dining/crowd restrictions are actually counter productive to ending the pandemic and is just prolonging the misery.

Like I said, Campbell is not an antilockdown nut and he cites the thinking of experts, particularly those that have the ear of the UK government.  He even has his mask poster behind him.  I don't know who is right....this position or the Gottlieb position.  I do find it funny however that either choice represents a binary choice of either the CDC f'ed up with the vaccination protocol (if Gottlieb is right) or the CDC is screwing up now by recommending masks/limitations (if the experts Campbell cites are correct).  Again, I'm not sure who is right at this particular point and am open minded either way.  I do note if Gottlieb is right it means we are going to be dealing with this for at least 4 to 5 years.  If Campbell is right, this is endemic and a cold by next year, assuming the experts don't f it up and waste this time.

But I know someone who won't be happy if Campbell is right (yeah it's several of you, let me apologize in advance but it's just too funny)....cue dad4 freakout in 5 4 3 2 1


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Anti-vaxx GOP official who mocked Delta variant dies of covid
					

AN ANTI-VAXX GOP official and devoted supporter of former President Trump has died from COVID after fiercely criticizing mask mandates and downplaying the severity of the virus. Pressley Stutts, th…




					www.the-sun.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Girl, 14, dies from Covid after 'parents forbid doctors from intubating her'
					

A nurse practitioner in the intensive care unit at a US hospital said four patients died of the devastating condition in one shift, including a 14-year-old girl




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Couple who feared Covid jab both die from virus leaving four children orphaned
					

Lawrence and Lydia Rodriguez, from Texas, took precautions so as not get the virus including wearing face masks said a cousin but they were skeptical of the vaccine




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## espola

NOVA.Dad said:


> Couple who feared Covid jab both die from virus leaving four children orphaned
> 
> 
> Lawrence and Lydia Rodriguez, from Texas, took precautions so as not get the virus including wearing face masks said a cousin but they were skeptical of the vaccine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mirror.co.uk


Morbid.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> , the best thing we can do to end this is TO ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE EXPOSED AND/OR INFECTED with the virus.


In your zeal to score debate points, you are admitting that you are willing to put people at increased risk of serious sickness or death.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> In your zeal to score debate points, you are admitting that you are willing to put people at increased risk of serious sickness or death.


Again, in your usual idiotic fashion, you lack total comprehension: 1) I don't know who is right....Gottlieb or the UK approach...I did post both sides of this debate and I think the Gottlieb position could be right....I just don't know, 2) the UK approach only works if you at least use vaccine mandates for the first dose, 3) the UK position assumes that the risk is always going to be there and you are just delaying the inevitable.

p.s. I never bought the entire EOTL/Husker= espola things.  EOTL and Husker are much more clever at trolling than you are.  I am open to the idea that Nova.dad is your sock puppet and he is just living out the fantasy that you articulated you wanted to do a few weeks ago.  Funny how the 2 of you are around like Clark Kent and Superman.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Morbid.


I note this couple followed the pre-vaccine dad4 advice: wear masks, don't go out often....they still got COVID.  Particularly if you aren't 100% sure you've had it before, and particularly if you are an adult, absolutely get the vaccine.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, in your usual idiotic fashion, you lack total comprehension: 1) I don't know who is right....Gottlieb or the UK approach...I did post both sides of this debate and I think the Gottlieb position could be right....I just don't know, 2) the UK approach only works if you at least use vaccine mandates for the first dose, 3) the UK position assumes that the risk is always going to be there and you are just delaying the inevitable.
> 
> p.s. I never bought the entire EOTL/Husker= espola things.  EOTL and Husker are much more clever at trolling than you are.  I am open to the idea that Nova.dad is your sock puppet and he is just living out the fantasy that you articulated you wanted to do a few weeks ago.  Funny how the 2 of you are around like Clark Kent and Superman.


I criticized your statement.  You responded with a full house of ad hominems.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I criticized your statement.  You responded with a full house of ad hominems.


You mischaracterized my statement, for which I could have responded you are either a fool or a liar.  Given your track record, I picked fool.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I note this couple followed the pre-vaccine dad4 advice: wear masks, don't go out often....they still got COVID.  Particularly if you aren't 100% sure you've had it before, and particularly if you are an adult, absolutely get the vaccine.


I care, 
So I wear
A mask,
No need to ask.

Now where did I see that?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You mischaracterized my statement, for which I could have responded you are either a fool or a liar.  Given your track record, I picked fool.


q.e.d.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I care,
> So I wear
> A mask,
> No need to ask.
> 
> Now where did I see that?


Again, we go with fool.  Like I said, he is not an anti-NPI nut.  The fact that HE of all people is laying this out is frankly shocking, even to me.  And it would absolutely destroy dad4's world if it's true (which again, I'm not taking a position on whether it is or isn't)


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> q.e.d.


"You've done it again, my dear Magoo!"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, we go with fool.  Like I said, he is not an anti-NPI nut.  The fact that HE of all people is laying this out is frankly shocking, even to me.  And it would absolutely destroy dad4's world if it's true (which again, I'm not taking a position on whether it is or isn't)


I watched the video.  He doesn't say what you said he did.  You have done that more than once when linking his videos.  It ends up being your opinion of his opinions of articles.  Did you ever play the party game Gossip or Telephone?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I watched the video.  He doesn't say what you said he did.  You have done that more than once when linking his videos.  It ends up being your opinion of his opinions of articles.  Did you ever play the party game Gossip or Telephone?


Then you didn't understand it, or the implications.  Coming from you, not really surprising. 

p.s. watch out for the barn!!!

p.p.s. he isn't really taking a position either....but he's summarizing some pretty shocking data and is opining it is optimistic.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Christian Radio Host Who Called Vaccine ‘Government Control’ Dies of COVID-19
					

Jimmy DeYoung, who trafficked in Christian prophecy, asked in an interview, “Could this vaccine be another form of government control of the people?”




					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Conservative Radio Talk Show Host Phil Valentine, Who Downplayed Vaccines, Dies of COVID


----------



## espola

NOVA.Dad said:


> Conservative Radio Talk Show Host Phil Valentine, Who Downplayed Vaccines, Dies of COVID


Morbid.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> Then you didn't understand it, or the implications.


I think the implications are related to the efficacy of immunity from natural infection and repeated exposure… via vaccine or otherwise.

What it is not, is a policy recommendation to willfully expose individuals or not use NPI’s, or not promote booster shots.

Espola’s ‘fact check’ gets an passing grade from me… assuming he admits that he fact checked a presumption as to your opinion.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Espola’s ‘fact check’ gets an passing grade from me… assuming he admits that he fact checked a presumption as to your opinion.


Ok.. this ‘summary’ does have a fair share of opinion in the interpretation.



Grace T. said:


> _*So, it is possible*_ that for the non-elderly, non-immunocompromised, which will need boosters perhaps multiple boosters, is that while vaccine immunity is at its highest, the *best* *thing we can do to end this is TO ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE EXPOSED AND/OR INFECTED with the virus.*  That has enormous implications including: 1) children should not be vaxxed...if the vax doesn't stop disease or even massively reduce hospitalizations, since they don't suffer from the severe form, it's probably better for them, particularly the under 12, to just get repeated exposures to the virus, 2) people while at a high level of immunity from the vaccine would need to risk natural exposure, 3) NPIS such as masks and dining/crowd restrictions are actually counter productive to ending the pandemic and is just prolonging the misery.



While the conclusions in the summary above… are not from the source linked, it is basis for the ‘contra’ argument that was being presented.



Grace T. said:


> Again, I'm not sure who is right at this particular point and am open minded either way


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #7*

Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to *protect *the *experimental subject *against *even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death.*


----------



## crush

Surgeon on Masks
					






					www.bitchute.com
				




@ Dad of 4 kids, watch this short video.  I bet Father of Lies Espola will watch to fact check if this is a true video.  This is from a real doctor.  You can;t trust anyone if all they do is lie for political gain.  All the kids are pawns and those who have a few questions are being controlled, locked out and kicked out of all that life has to offer and it's pure evil.  Science Magicians.  No need for a mask at all according to so any, if Dr. F said their is no need for a mask.  Bruddah IZ, we need your fact sheets. Keep bringing them bro.  Me & Grace and anyone with an honest brain and a heart full of gold can see the truth.  Liars only lie.  They just talk lie.  Lying is it's own language btw.  Thank you for showing us the truth IZ.  The Father of Lies has been lying and making pawns out of kids.  Sickos and Espola is here 24/7 with no kids.  Imagine an old man on here with no kids in the game.  Why?  These men are full of darkness.  Their hearts are so hard and their eyes are blind and their ears are clogged with bullshit from the BS in their brain.  True losers in every sense.  Their time is up.  Nowhere to hide.  The Light is never going away but the darkness and those who live in darkness will be no more.  Can I get a hallelujah and a Amen? They make fun of all that has happen in the war for the last 20 years and just chalk it up as an, "oh well."  They mock our soldiers who lost legs.  They mock those WHO think for themselves.  Their scared little men who face judgement like at no other time.  Judgement is coming and it will be swift. The game is over and now you must answer to the One.


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> Christian Radio Host Who Called Vaccine ‘Government Control’ Dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Jimmy DeYoung, who trafficked in Christian prophecy, asked in an interview, “Could this vaccine be another form of government control of the people?”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedailybeast.com


*Two can play this game.   *


*Rev. Jesse Jackson and his wife have been hospitalized after testing positive for Covid-19*



*Jackson received his first Covid-19 vaccine dose in January at an event to promote African American confidence in vaccinations, according to a statement at the time from RPC.
Breakthrough infections for those who are vaccinated have been reported.  *


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> I think the implications are related to the efficacy of immunity from natural infection and repeated exposure… via vaccine or otherwise.
> 
> What it is not, is a policy recommendation to willfully expose individuals or not use NPI’s, or not promote booster shots.
> 
> Espola’s ‘fact check’ gets an passing grade from me… assuming he admits that he fact checked a presumption as to your opinion.


I agree that neither Campbell nor I are making a policy recommendation here. As I stated I don’t know who is right…Gottlieb or Campbell.  But if what Campbell is saying turns out to be true, it does have certain policy implications that flow from that. I would never presume to summarize Campbell.  He’s too good for that.  I’m just giving a thumbnail and laying out what logically flows from that (a lot of which he touches on the video as well)

as for espola he won’t admit this is conditional in campbells video being correct. I don’t know if it is or isn’t and I’m not advocating it. He says I am. I frankly find the possibility this video would be true shocking. If dad4, roadrunner, the evil one, husker had the courage to watch, theyd find it horrifying


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I agree that neither Campbell nor I are making a policy recommendation here. As I stated I don’t know who is right…Gottlieb or Campbell.  But if what Campbell is saying turns out to be true, it does have certain policy implications that flow from that. I would never presume to summarize Campbell.  He’s too good for that.  I’m just giving a thumbnail and laying out what logically flows from that (a lot of which he touches on the video as well)
> 
> as for espola he won’t admit this is conditional in campbells video being correct. I don’t know if it is or isn’t and I’m not advocating it. He says I am. I frankly find the possibility this video would be true shocking. If dad4, roadrunner, the evil one, husker had the courage to watch, theyd find it horrifying


I love you Grace.  I need people like you around me all the time


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccerfan2 said:


> Teacher here. Opposite my expectations, 95% of my 6-7 year olds don’t care. They’re perfectly used to wearing the mask. We take them off when we go outside, and I have to remind them every single day to take them off. I rarely have to remind them to put them on. I hate wearing the mask, but it’s not that big a deal. It sure did seem to cut down on the spread of illness of all kinds from kid to kid last year. Kids don’t have political bias so their reaction is quite pure and uncomplicated.


And teachable for better or worse.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> How many payroll checks have you missed in the last 18 months?  How many people have you attempted to hire in the last 18 months? How many rent checks did you try to collect in the last 18 months?  Just get in line? This is the exact arrogance that I'm referring to.
> 
> Now admittedly relative to everyone else our family did great during Covid, in part because we took a common sense approach to Covid and not a fear based approach.  I was really lucky too because business was great.  However, many were much less fortunate.  Mostly children because of the burdens we put on them, because adults couldn't handle their own business.
> 
> Right now we can't open our youth services club houses to full capacity, because we can't get employees due to the overly generous unemployment benefits.  We serve underprivileged kids, they are now left without a safe place to go to after school.
> 
> We need to stop making decisions based solely on the opinions of "experts" and start considering the input of *stakeholders*.


Hard to convince the pro-vax folks that comparing a single event to itself is not as scientific as is comparing it to the science of past respiratory viruses that have evolved with us.  They are not open to the possibility or probability that we would not be a world population of nearly 7 billion and growing if not for viral updates via viruses.  Duh!


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> And teachable for better or worse.


Bruddah IZ is back.  Missed you man.  Grace is singing your praises bro but we know where all your smarts come from.  You crossed over and I'm super stoked to be in this war with you and all the others in our Fox hole.  Sniper fire is starting to simmer and we might just be able to get out alive and free ourselves from some real selfish A-Holes.  Nothing like being stuck in a Fox hole with A-Hole!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Update on San Diego County Covid and kids:
> 
> 99.95% of age 0-19 have not been hospitalized with Covid in the last 18 months.  (525 hospitalizations vs population of 867,245)
> 99.9998% of age 0-19 have not died with Covid in the last 18 months.  (2 deaths vs population of 867,245)


Shocking right?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Bruddah IZ is back.  Missed you man.  Grace is singing your praises bro but we know where all your smarts come from.  You crossed over and I'm super stoked to be in this war with you and all the others in our Fox hole.  Sniper fire is starting to simmer and we might just be able to get out alive and free ourselves from some real selfish A-Holes.  Nothing like being stuck in a Fox hole with A-Hole!!


It’s harvest season.  I was out working the aina the last couple of days and prepping for the latest release of quercetins in a bottle.  We picked about 2 1/2 tons of sauvignon blanc friday morn’.  I’m not a whites fan but I must say some chilled sauv or fallanghina on a hot day is pretty refreshing.  Otherwise the Tempranillo we picked 3 years ago is beyond it’s years so the owner made the call to release yesterday.  Bold with a good nose and a nice dry finish.  Two five ounce glasses a day is a part of my overall health plan.  Being in the vineyards at 5am is a special experience up in Highland Valley, Escondido.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Surgeon on Masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ Dad of 4 kids, watch this short video.  I bet Father of Lies Espola will watch to fact check if this is a true video.  This is from a real doctor.  You can;t trust anyone if all they do is lie for political gain.  All the kids are pawns and those who have a few questions are being controlled, locked out and kicked out of all that life has to offer and it's pure evil.  Science Magicians.  No need for a mask at all according to so any, if Dr. F said their is no need for a mask.  Bruddah IZ, we need your fact sheets. Keep bringing them bro.  Me & Grace and anyone with an honest brain and a heart full of gold can see the truth.  Liars only lie.  They just talk lie.  Lying is it's own language btw.  Thank you for showing us the truth IZ.  The Father of Lies has been lying and making pawns out of kids.  Sickos and Espola is here 24/7 with no kids.  Imagine an old man on here with no kids in the game.  Why?  These men are full of darkness.  Their hearts are so hard and their eyes are blind and their ears are clogged with bullshit from the BS in their brain.  True losers in every sense.  Their time is up.  Nowhere to hide.  The Light is never going away but the darkness and those who live in darkness will be no more.  Can I get a hallelujah and a Amen? They make fun of all that has happen in the war for the last 20 years and just chalk it up as an, "oh well."  They mock our soldiers who lost legs.  They mock those WHO think for themselves.  Their scared little men who face judgement like at no other time.  Judgement is coming and it will be swift. The game is over and now you must answer to the One.


They have had more than a year to study the issue and have yet to come up with something  more definitive.  It’s almost as if they don’t want to know the answer.


----------



## Roadrunner

espola said:


> I watched the video.  He doesn't say what you said he did.  You have done that more than once when linking his videos.  It ends up being your opinion of his opinions of articles.  Did you ever play the party game Gossip or Telephone?


Exactly, he gives titles of articles, shares short quotes from various sources, but also shares partially accurate information and makes some large assumptions.  It was a weird approach, in my opinion, and I wouldn't use this as a source for much.  Because some of the things he said were flat out wrong, it made me question his credibility on this topic.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> They have had more than a year to study the issue and have yet to come up with something  more definitive.  It’s almost as if they don’t want to know the answer.


They know the answer and it's right in front of us for all to see.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> At the end of the day you have to be your own advocate.  My dad had some severe complications after a surgery.  My mom told the doctor that he was dehydrated.  The doctor scolded my mom "what do you know hydration".  He adamantly denied that that was the problem.  After some back and forth and advocacy from the nurse they pumped him full of fluids.  He was back to normal in less than a day.
> 
> The problem is not that some doctors and experts are stupid.  The problem is they're arrogant and are not to be questioned.  It's the same arrogance from politicians and public health officials that think they know what's best for everyone.


Doctors, not all, are in a different silo.  And the malpractice insurance industry sets premiums accordingly.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Now, would it have been better if CA had closed the bars and casinos instead of the schools?  Yes.


Sweden did neither.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> Exactly, he gives titles of articles, shares short quotes from various sources, but also shares partially accurate information and makes some large assumptions.  It was a weird approach, in my opinion, and I wouldn't use this as a source for much.  Because some of the things he said were flat out wrong, it made me question his credibility on this topic.


Good Sunday morning Roadrunner.  Let's see if Husker wakes up from his long night.  I know 100% Dad 4 had some freaking gnarly dreams and is wondering if what I'm saying might actually have some truth to it.  Espola is napping and has decided to be a liar.  Tenacious, I love you and I know you thought I was crazy. I'm only crazy for freedom.  You can believe whatever you want.  Espola is now having nightmares of cold sweats because judgement day is coming.  Each will be rewarded for the work done.  Remember everyone, man looks at the outward appearance and all his wealth in his barn while God almighty and Christ look at the heart and what the brain plans each day in each human.  No escape.  We have it all.  Make the deal and enter paradise when this game is over.  Evil Goalie, I'm not sure bout him.  I pray for good dreams for him to see that I come from truth and only mean peace but peace for all, not just the elitist who think they own us.  They did, but not no more.  The light won you guys.  Get busy with freedom, it's here


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> They have had more than a year to study the issue and have yet to come up with something  more definitive.  It’s almost as if they don’t want to know the answer.


What do you mean?   We have a long history of eradicating respiratory diseases by mandating SIP orders and allowing the government to deny our rights to due process.  Unelected officials acting as a 3rd party have been allowed to abrogate contracts, muting the first and only two parties.


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> What do you mean?   We have a long history of eradicating respiratory diseases by mandating SIP orders and allowing the government to deny our rights to due process.  Unelected officials acting as a 3rd party have been allowed to abrogate contracts, muting the first and only two parties.


All I can say man is that is the Campbell video turns out to be correct you will have completely chumped out dad 4 and blown my mind…you will have been more right than him (or me for that matter)


----------



## crush

Dear God, what are they doing to us!??
					

Is THIS what's coming for all that's received it?? https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FearlessNation:7  CLICK TO CLAIM FREE LBC  https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FEARLESS_ONE:8  Help me Help others ▶ https://ko-fi.com/fearlessnation PAYPAL ▶ htt…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> Here's the counter position to the booster.   ..natural immunity is actually more robust than vaccine immunity just because it operates in a variety of different ways to stop infection, while the vaccines only operate on the spike protein.


Grace, there's a reason (actually more than one) for why the effective vaccines against SARS-CoV2 are focused on the spike protein, and not on trying to give the immune system a wide range of different protein targets to sample.  It is also partly why the monoclonal antibody treatments for mild-moderate covid are directed only against the spike protein.   

Maybe a soccer analogy would help? Let's see, your team has to defend against a PK, and in this game, the rules are such that you can add 10 additional players to try to defend against the PK.  I'm going to guess that you would want to add 10 goalkeepers in goal, rather than place 10 other players all over the field.    Maybe someone else has a better soccer analogy.....


----------



## Grace T.

“


Roadrunner said:


> Exactly, he gives titles of articles, shares short quotes from various sources, but also shares partially accurate information and makes some large assumptions.  It was a weird approach, in my opinion, and I wouldn't use this as a source for much.  Because some of the things he said were flat out wrong, it made me question his credibility on this topic.


In other words: “I like him when he is doing this stuff with things I agree with, but on this topic I don’t like it”.  Guy has been very pro npi. You see even the mask thing behind him.  The fact that THIS GUY is summarizing this applicable data (which you are welcome to do a deep dive on…I’ve gone to those sources too but I could never do that data as good a summary particularly since I’m not convinced it’s right) is what’s particularly shocking. He was more dr doom at the start of this than even dad4. It’s a summary…which he optimistically leans into. It’s also an accurate description of what the uk government has decided to do and the assumptions behind its policy.  Call it Sweden 2.0 if you like.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> I think the implications are related to the efficacy of immunity from natural infection and repeated exposure… via vaccine or otherwise.
> 
> What it is not, is a policy recommendation to willfully expose individuals or not use NPI’s, or not promote booster shots.
> 
> Espola’s ‘fact check’ gets an passing grade from me… assuming he admits that he fact checked a presumption as to your opinion.


What is evident to me from the Campbell is that those who are fully vaccinated and also have had the actual disease, before or after the vaccination, are the best protected.

What is not evident to me from the Campbell video is any reason for Grace to be crowing about it.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Bruddah IZ said:


> Sweden did neither.


And they have the highest per-capita death rate of all of their neighboring countries.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Grace, there's a reason (actually more than one) for why the effective vaccines against SARS-CoV2 are focused on the spike protein, and not on trying to give the immune system a wide range of different protein targets to sample.  It is also partly why the monoclonal antibody treatments for mild-moderate covid are directed only against the spike protein.
> 
> Maybe a soccer analogy would help? Let's see, your team has to defend against a PK, and in this game, the rules are such that you can add 10 additional players to try to defend against the PK.  I'm going to guess that you would want to add 10 goalkeepers in goal, rather than place 10 other players all over the field.    Maybe someone else has a better soccer analogy.....


I agree with your first paragraph. It’s why I’ve been in the bruddah can’t be right camp.  It’s why I’m not all in to the Campbell video. Totally understand and agree with the point you are making.

but you soccer analogy fails. Reason we know this is because of the standard idfk defense.  The defense is to have the field players form a wall in goal and have the gk rush out. If you had 10 gks try to rush out (instead of forming the wall) they’d get in a jumble trying to grab the ball. There’s also be no one on offense. I’d rather have 2 gks (one for each post), 8 super tall field players to form the wall across goal, and 1 player who is faster than anyone else to go on a breakaway.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> What is evident to me from the *Campbell is that those who are fully vaccinated and also have had the actual disease, before or after the vaccination, are the best protected.*
> 
> What is not evident to me from the Campbell video is any reason for Grace to be crowing about it.


Foolish, stupid and a lie.  No jab, no mask, no fear and eat healthy, veggies, fruits, nuts & salads,  No meat or booz.  This is the true truth of all this.  My personal experience does not need no Campbell study or any study.  My eyes and ears are not stupid or blind.  This is a lie everyone.  Espola is not a Dr.  he has no kids playing soccer so his only business here is to talk you into getting jabbed and not to believe in Christ.  He is on the side of lying and that is where Lucifer holds court.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is evident to me from the Campbell is that those who are fully vaccinated and also have had the actual disease, before or after the vaccination, are the best protected.
> 
> What is not evident to me from the Campbell video is any reason for Grace to be crowing about it.


Because you are moron that can’t even see the logic of what you are saying. If vaccination substantially removes the risk of severe disease (which is a big if in the line of thinking the uk govt has outlined) and assuming you want to you know actually end the pandemic by having it people “best protected”…you’d want people to have a vaccine and a mild case of the disease itself.   Doing npis that prevent this, particularly when people are at the height of their vaccine immunity, would be counterproductive. Hence the uk approach


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Because you are moron that can’t even see the logic of what you are saying. If vaccination substantially removes the risk of severe disease (which is a big if in the line of thinking the uk govt has outlined) and assuming you want to you know actually end the pandemic by having it people “best protected”…you’d want people to have a vaccine and a mild case of the disease itself.   Doing npis that prevent this, particularly when people are at the height of their vaccine immunity, would be counterproductive. Hence the uk approach


I'm struggling with this, but I can't make sense of it.  The reason you are acting so badly is because I am a moron?


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> “
> 
> In other words: “I like him when he is doing this stuff with things I agree with, but on this topic I don’t like it”.  Guy has been very pro npi. You see even the mask thing behind him.  The fact that THIS GUY is summarizing this applicable data (which you are welcome to do a deep dive on…I’ve gone to those sources too but I could never do that data as good a summary particularly since I’m not convinced it’s right) is what’s particularly shocking. He was more dr doom at the start of this than even dad4. It’s a summary…which he optimistically leans into. It’s also an accurate description of what the uk government has decided to do and the assumptions behind its policy.  Call it Sweden 2.0 if you like.


No Grace, you are putting words into my mouth. On top of that it is not even a good, thoughtful summary.  I have been in this area scientifically for a while, so yes, I'm trying to keep up on the papers. I don't spend time watching videos and caring what props they have in the background.


----------



## espola

Roadrunner said:


> Exactly, he gives titles of articles, shares short quotes from various sources, but also shares partially accurate information and makes some large assumptions.  It was a weird approach, in my opinion, and I wouldn't use this as a source for much.  Because some of the things he said were flat out wrong, it made me question his credibility on this topic.


And then Grace picks and chooses from his statements to further her own agenda.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> No Grace, you are putting words into my mouth. On top of that it is not even a good, thoughtful summary.  I have been in this area scientifically for a while, so yes, I'm trying to keep up on the papers. I don't spend time watching videos and caring what props they have in the background.


Ah I thought you were attacking the messenger Campbell.  So if I’m mistaken sorry for that. But if you’ve read the papers then what are your opinions on the Uk approach?

so if you are in the area please opine as in myself am trying to come to a conclusion.  The us andUk approaches are beginning to diverge. The us particularly blue areas the Biden admin can influence want to hold down natural immunity through lower level npis. The Uk has lifted most restrictions and is pursuing natural immunity as a component. Who is right and why?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And then Grace picks and chooses from his statements to further her own agenda.


Again you are a liar, liar. Because I’ve been clear I’m not sure which is the correct approach. Liar.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I'm struggling with this, but I can't make sense of it.  The reason you are acting so badly is because I am a moron?


and a liar.  You speak Satan bro.  It's obvious you were EOTL and still have him in your heart.  You only have one way out.  EOTL treated Grace the same way.  You have a problem with woman who can out fox you and smart you.  You dont like woman.  You were hurt by them when you were a young boy.  Total loser & liar you have become Espola.  I stand for the truth and the truth has no side, it's just the plain truth and nothing but the truth.  Jesus is the way and the truth and that is 100% true.  I love him   No way around the truth dude.  Time is up, right?  You do feel it now.  This why I'm the only one you have ignored.  Light & darkness have nothing in common.  Stay alone in your dark cave unless you want to clean yourself of the dirt in your callous heart.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm struggling with this, but I can't make sense of it.  The reason you are acting so badly is because I am a moron?


Of course you are struggling. What else is new.


----------



## espola

Roadrunner said:


> Grace, there's a reason (actually more than one) for why the effective vaccines against SARS-CoV2 are focused on the spike protein, and not on trying to give the immune system a wide range of different protein targets to sample.  It is also partly why the monoclonal antibody treatments for mild-moderate covid are directed only against the spike protein.
> 
> Maybe a soccer analogy would help? Let's see, your team has to defend against a PK, and in this game, the rules are such that you can add 10 additional players to try to defend against the PK.  I'm going to guess that you would want to add 10 goalkeepers in goal, rather than place 10 other players all over the field.    Maybe someone else has a better soccer analogy.....


I'm struggling to come up with one.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that concentrating on the spike protein makes sense because that is the part of the covid exterior that is most unlike any other passive organism the vaccine-induced antibodies might encounter.  Perhaps a different soccer analogy is that if you know the PK shooter always shoots low and to his left, you defend against that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Here's the counter position to the booster.  It's going to scare the shit out of dad 4 and the others on team panic.  I posted the Gottleib position above.  This is the contra.  I don't know which is right, but note Campbell who did this review has been pro NPI pro vaccine.
> 
> The counter argument going around to boosters forever, at least for the non-elderly, non-immunocompromised, is that there has been quite a bit of data coming out that natural immunity is actually more robust than vaccine immunity just because it operates in a variety of different ways to stop infection, while the vaccines only operate on the spike protein.  So, it is possible that for the non-elderly, non-immunocompromised, which will need boosters perhaps multiple boosters, is that while vaccine immunity is at its highest, the best thing we can do to end this is TO ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE EXPOSED AND/OR INFECTED with the virus.  That has enormous implications including: 1) children should not be vaxxed...if the vax doesn't stop disease or even massively reduce hospitalizations, since they don't suffer from the severe form, it's probably better for them, particularly the under 12, to just get repeated exposures to the virus, 2) people while at a high level of immunity from the vaccine would need to risk natural exposure, 3) NPIS such as masks and dining/crowd restrictions are actually counter productive to ending the pandemic and is just prolonging the misery.
> 
> Like I said, Campbell is not an antilockdown nut and he cites the thinking of experts, particularly those that have the ear of the UK government.  He even has his mask poster behind him.  I don't know who is right....this position or the Gottlieb position.  I do find it funny however that either choice represents a binary choice of either the CDC f'ed up with the vaccination protocol (if Gottlieb is right) or the CDC is screwing up now by recommending masks/limitations (if the experts Campbell cites are correct).  Again, I'm not sure who is right at this particular point and am open minded either way.  I do note if Gottlieb is right it means we are going to be dealing with this for at least 4 to 5 years.  If Campbell is right, this is endemic and a cold by next year, assuming the experts don't f it up and waste this time.
> 
> But I know someone who won't be happy if Campbell is right (yeah it's several of you, let me apologize in advance but it's just too funny)....cue dad4 freakout in 5 4 3 2 1


As I've posted before, Campbell is not saying anything new regarding natural immunity.  Except Mrs IZ is going to hate that I'll not be clearing the thickets from my nostrils anytime soon.  As long as I can still see through them when I'm driving, I'll be good.  I loved Vaxspola's responses.  A lot of nothingness for having watched the video.  I love watching him argue as an M.D., epidemiologist or any of the other titles that he has attributed to himself.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> And they have the highest per-capita death rate of all of their neighboring countries.


Was it worth it?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I'm struggling to come up with one.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that concentrating on the spike protein makes sense because that is the part of the covid exterior that is most unlike any other passive organism the vaccine-induced antibodies might encounter.  Perhaps a different soccer analogy is that if you know the PK shooter always shoots low and to his left, you defend against that.





espola said:


> I watched the video.  He doesn't say what you said he did.  You have done that more than once when linking his videos.  It ends up being your opinion of his opinions of articles.  Did you ever play the party game Gossip or Telephone?


Tell us about them Gamespola.


----------



## crush

I thought my preaching days were over when things got nasty in 2017.  However, I'm back with a smile and message.  Open your brain and let the dear savior in.  It will unlock the key to the other 95-90% of the brain you dont use.  Some on here are using only maybe 3% from my guess. 
I will share good gospel news from time to time to help you who have no faith. 
God News Sharing:  My pal Ryan was going through some tough times last year at this time in California.  He had to move back to Ohio because the company he worked for went OB because of the pandemic.  He was sad to leave but someone poked him about what life is really about for the two years he was here.  He just got baptized and thanked me for the pokes.  Espola, Husker, Evil, Dad of 4 kids, Messy, EOTL and the New Roadrunner, this song is for you.  My dad's eyes were opened before he died and it's* "never too late to capitulate." * it's never too late to see the light fellas.  This songs for you guys,


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> All I can say man is that is the Campbell video turns out to be correct you will have completely chumped out dad 4 and blown my mind…you will have been more right than him (or me for that matter)


That's not saying much when you consider the history of viruses that I've posted about and that has been largely ignored by Dadspola, Docspola, and Hus pola et al.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Writing in _Spiked_, Martin Kulldorff and Jay Bhattacharya decry the smear campaign against the Great Barrington Declaration. Two slices:


In October 2020, along with Professor Sunetra Gupta, we authored the Great Barrington Declaration, in which we argued for a ‘focused protection’ pandemic strategy. We called for better protection of older and other high-risk people, while arguing that children should be allowed to go to school and young adults should be free to live more normal lives. We understood that it might lead to vigorous and heated discussions, but we did not expect a multi-pronged propaganda campaign that gravely distorted our arguments and smeared us. We are just three public-health scientists, after all. So how and why did this slanderous counterattack emerge?

In his recent book, _Spike_, Jeremy Farrar – a SAGE member and director of the Wellcome Trust – has provided a helpful hint: the political strategist and the prime minister’s chief adviser, Dominic Cummings, planned a propaganda campaign against the Great Barrington Declaration. Farrar’s exact words are that Cummings ‘wanted to run an aggressive press campaign against those behind the Great Barrington Declaration and others opposed to blanket Covid-19 restrictions’. Cummings and Farrar preferred a blanket lockdown strategy, believing it would avoid a winter Covid wave.

…..

[Matt] Hancock, Anthony Fauci, Jeremy Farrar and prominent journalists also mischaracterized the Great Barrington Declaration as a ‘herd-immunity strategy’, even though any strategy will lead to herd immunity sooner or later. Yes, the Declaration discussed herd immunity. It would be irresponsible to ignore such a basic biological fact. But to characterize the Great Barrington Declaration as a ‘herd-immunity strategy’ is like describing a pilot’s plan to land a plane as a ‘gravity strategy’. The goal of a pilot is to land the plane safely while managing the force of gravity. The goal of any Covid pandemic plan should be to minimize disease mortality and the collateral harms from the plan itself, while managing the build-up of immunity in the population. Shockingly, some politicians, journalists and even scientists denied the very existence of herd immunity.* Some even questioned the existence of natural immunity from Covid, which is a bit like denying gravity.*


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> Ah I thought you were attacking the messenger Campbell.  So if I’m mistaken sorry for that. But if you’ve read the papers then what are your opinions on the Uk approach?


Grace, I was correcting the assumption you made about my reaction to the video.  I'm not attacking any person, but I did criticize the video.  

As to the question of what is the best policy for governments to pursue? I'm sure that depends on the situation in their particular area.  It also depends on what the goals are of the government or other group setting the policy. It's complex, as many on here have discussed.  

From the biology side, knowing just how destructive this virus can be once set loose in our bodies and the damage that an infection can lead to, if given a choice, I would not want anyone to get infected.  There's also the risk that a variant with a high mortality rate could emerge. No one can know whether this will or won't happen.  This, I would advise against choices where the virus is permitted to thrive.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Some even questioned the existence of natural immunity from Covid, which is a bit like denying gravity.*


Gravity is still a theory last I heard.  No one here is ready for that discussion so I wont bring that up anymore.  Were still here arguing if God is real with the scared men.  Once we ALL see God is the great I AM, then we can move unto Real Science and Religion for $1,000, not Science Magicians and Weird Science for $1.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

At least some Australians are actively resisting the thugs who govern that once-free country. (*DBx*: Note that Victoria’s premier, Dan Andrews, declared that Friday’s 61 new cases [_cases_, not deaths] of Covid in that state – a state with a population of 6.7 million – portends “catastrophe.” On Friday, the seven-day average of new Covid-19 cases was a whopping 39. Sixty-one is 0.00091 percent of Victoria’s population; 39 is 0.00058 percent. [There’s been no Covid _death_ in Victoria since October 27th, when two people died.] When government gets to define such a situation as a “catastrophe” in the making, and then to use this ‘evidence’ of a coming “catastrophe” as an excuse to unleash unprecedented restrictions on freedom, restrictions enforced with unprecedented powers, tyranny has truly arrived. Meanwhile in Sweden, the seven-day average of Covid deaths is now one.)


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> *As to the question of what is the best policy for governments to pursue?* *I'm sure that depends on the "Political" situation in their particular area ((where you live)).*


I added a word in red.  It 100% depends on the "political" situation and are where you live Rr.  None of this is true anymore.  The gig is up.  Your side cheated and got caught. The bribes and blackmail will shock you to the core.  You will be sick and depressed because you voted for a lie and evil team of evil doers.  Killing babies and then selling their parts is evil to the core.  No one will escape the truth.  Good people who were tricked will need to see that for what it is and then learn from it and make sure not to ever be tricked again.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Grace, I was correcting the assumption you made about my reaction to the video.  I'm not attacking any person, but I did criticize the video.
> 
> As to the question of what is the best policy for governments to pursue? I'm sure that depends on the situation in their particular area.  It also depends on what the goals are of the government or other group setting the policy. It's complex, as many on here have discussed.
> 
> From the biology side, knowing just how destructive this virus can be once set loose in our bodies and the damage that an infection can lead to, if given a choice, I would not want anyone to get infected.  There's also the risk that a variant with a high mortality rate could emerge. No one can know whether this will or won't happen.  This, I would advise against choices where the virus is permitted to thrive.


Zero covid is not one of your choices.  It’s neither the Gottlieb or uk approach.  China australia and New Zealand are still clinging to the fantasy of zero covid and you can see how that’s going. Believing in zero covid given how the vaccine is performing is a fantasy

neither is the no further variant possibility because most of the world won’t be vaccinated until 2023.

further you forwarded nothing to support your assertion the virus is “destructive” among the vaccinated…and if so you would be saying the vaccine is at least a partial failure

I asked for your opinion as to the two approaches and you threw up two fantasies.  Slightly disappointed as you struck me as thoughtful.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Zero covid is not one of your choices.  It’s neither the Gottlieb or uk approach.  China australia and New Zealand are still clinging to the fantasy of zero covid and you can see how that’s going. Believing in zero covid given how the vaccine is performing is a fantasy
> 
> neither is the no further variant possibility because most of the world won’t be vaccinated until 2023.
> 
> further you forwarded nothing to support your assertion the virus is “destructive” among the vaccinated…and if so you would be saying the vaccine is at least a partial failure
> 
> I asked for your opinion as to the two approaches and you threw up two fantasies.  Slightly disappointed as you struck me as thoughtful.


Ps my 12 year old and I just had this fight. “You can have Mexican or bbq for lunch”. “I want crawfish”. “Sorry dude they just went out of season…how bout versailles”. “I want crawfish”. “Sigh”.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> At least some Australians are actively resisting the thugs who govern that once-free country. (*DBx*: Note that Victoria’s premier, Dan Andrews, declared that Friday’s 61 new cases [_cases_, not deaths] of Covid in that state – a state with a population of 6.7 million – portends “catastrophe.” On Friday, the seven-day average of new Covid-19 cases was a whopping 39. Sixty-one is 0.00091 percent of Victoria’s population; 39 is 0.00058 percent. [There’s been no Covid _death_ in Victoria since October 27th, when two people died.] When government gets to define such a situation as a “catastrophe” in the making, and then to use this ‘evidence’ of a coming “catastrophe” as an excuse to unleash unprecedented restrictions on freedom, restrictions enforced with unprecedented powers, tyranny has truly arrived. Meanwhile in Sweden, the seven-day average of Covid deaths is now one.)


Paris is pissed









						Paris - Tens of Thousands Hit the Streets
					

...for the 6th consecutive week against Macron's tyrannical covid passports. https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FearlessNation:7  CLICK TO CLAIM FREE LBC  https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FEARLESS_ONE:8  Help me Help others ▶ https://ko-fi.com/fe…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hypothesis: the majority of people currently taking offense at analogies between lockdowns and the Taliban (or North Korea or other similar authoritarian regimes) are doing so primarily because these comparisons hit a little too close to home for their own comfort.

Yes, the comparisons involve a degree of hyperbole and intentionally so. But there’s more than enough of an authoritarian flavor to lockdowns, to the ways they were enacted, and to the basic curtailment of freedom that they entail to place them in the same ballpark as the types of policies that we usually associate with third world dictatorships or communist regimes.

Of course we also know that most of the offense taken here is feigned precisely because the very same people who get outraged at these comparisons spent the last 1.5 years indulging in far more severe hyperbole by likening even modest expressions of skepticism about lockdowns and masks to eugenics, ethnic cleansing, racism, and attempted murder.--Phil Magness


----------



## crush

Monsters of fear.  Look at this you guys.  









						Man dragged from his house in Northern Ireland by dozens of police for not 'self-isolating'
					

Sam Marie McGinley, 32, of Rosecourt in Derry, was charged with breaching Covid-19 rules and resisting police. The court heard he had gone to Turkey for surgery but refused to quarantine in a Dublin hotel when he returned. On Friday, he was remand…




					www.bitchute.com
				




This is what Dad is advocating because his life is a life of being controlled with fear.  It's a drug of adrenalin made from our brains and causes people to make decisions caused by the fear their brain makes.  Once the brain makes fear, the mind plays tricks on your greatest fears and makes many of you to tell stories that you make up in your freaking head.  None of us know what tomorrow will bring.  Think about that why I go and pray and mediate on my lesson for today.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> Hard to convince the pro-vax folks that comparing a single event to itself is not as scientific as is comparing it to the science of past respiratory viruses that have evolved with us.  They are not open to the possibility or probability that we would not be a world population of nearly 7 billion and growing if not for viral updates via viruses.  Duh!


To be clear I'm pro-Vax but I'm also pro-immunity from prior infection.  The available evidence indicates that natural immunity is stronger than vaccinated immunity, likely substantially stronger.  I'm pro-choice.

To require proof of vaccination is incredibly discriminatory and gross government overreach.  I don't think you should require any proof, but it would be far more appropriate to have to provide proof of either a vaccination or prior infection.   Even then you still run into discriminatory issues due to the fact that some races have low vaccination rates.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Surgeon on Masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ Dad of 4 kids, watch this short video.  I bet Father of Lies Espola will watch to fact check if this is a true video.  This is from a real doctor.  You can;t trust anyone if all they do is lie for political gain.  All the kids are pawns and those who have a few questions are being controlled, locked out and kicked out of all that life has to offer and it's pure evil.  Science Magicians.  No need for a mask at all according to so any, if Dr. F said their is no need for a mask.  Bruddah IZ, we need your fact sheets. Keep bringing them bro.  Me & Grace and anyone with an honest brain and a heart full of gold can see the truth.  Liars only lie.  They just talk lie.  Lying is it's own language btw.  Thank you for showing us the truth IZ.  The Father of Lies has been lying and making pawns out of kids.  Sickos and Espola is here 24/7 with no kids.  Imagine an old man on here with no kids in the game.  Why?  These men are full of darkness.  Their hearts are so hard and their eyes are blind and their ears are clogged with bullshit from the BS in their brain.  True losers in every sense.  Their time is up.  Nowhere to hide.  The Light is never going away but the darkness and those who live in darkness will be no more.  Can I get a hallelujah and a Amen? They make fun of all that has happen in the war for the last 20 years and just chalk it up as an, "oh well."  They mock our soldiers who lost legs.  They mock those WHO think for themselves.  Their scared little men who face judgement like at no other time.  Judgement is coming and it will be swift. The game is over and now you must answer to the One.


Surgeons are trained to think of masks as PPE.  Make sure the patient does not infect the doctor.  Make sure the doctor doesn’t place germs into the patient’s open wound.  Important stuff.  Just not relevant to the question of masks for going to the grocery store.

Asking a surgeon about epidemiology is no more helpful than asking an epidemiologist to remove your appendix.  Each has their own area of expertise, and neither one knows how to do the other’s job.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> I'm struggling to come up with one.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that concentrating on the spike protein makes sense because that is the part of the covid exterior that is most unlike any other passive organism the vaccine-induced antibodies might encounter.  Perhaps a different soccer analogy is that if you know the PK shooter always shoots low and to his left, you defend against that.


Yes.  Plus two other key things make spike the most obvious vaccine target.   First, spike acts on the outside of the cell to mediate the first step in the infection cycle.  Once the virus gains cell entry, all other viral protein surfaces are masked from the immune system. Second, since it projects away from the viral capsid surface, it presents an effect surface area to which neutralizing antibodies can bind.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Asking a surgeon about epidemiology is no more helpful than asking an epidemiologist to remove your appendix.  Each has their own area of expertise, and neither one knows how to do the other’s job.


Not sure about your analogy, but regardless I strongly disagree with your point.  It touches on the expert arrogance that I've pointed out a number of times.  A surgeon may have a much broader view and is entitled to question the conclusions of an epidemiologist.  We're all entitled to question or take advice counter to an expert.  We're entitled to our choice.

-We were against the doctor doing an amnio, he repeatedly assured us that it was safe.  It wasn't it....it resulted in a crash c-section, my daughter to be resuscitated at birth, a scalpel cut across her head, 6 weeks premature
-My dad had been to just about every doctor including the Mayo clinic for a number of years.  No diagnosis other than possible dehydration.  I diagnosed it as Parkinson's, which was thereafter confirmed by a doctor
-The anecdote about my mom telling the doctor that my dad need to be hydrated

Sorry, I'm not going to delegate my medical decisions to an "expert".  I will strongly consider their input, along with 2nd and likely 3rd opinions.  I'm not going to get a vaccination just because an epidemiologist recommends it, and surely not because a politician requires it.   I will, and did, consult with my doctor before making that decision.

You should get multiple medical opinions before making any serious decision.  I think your an idiot if you don't, but hey its your choice.  Let Darwin sort it out like Nova.Dad's examples likely point out.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Let Darwin sort it out.


Bit of patience and we'll be there soon enough.  And unless friends or family are directly affected may not necessarily even notice at all.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> *Once the virus gains cell entry*,* all other viral protein surfaces are masked from the immune system.*


or the vaccine enters the blood cells and causes inflammation after being jabbed.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Not sure about your analogy, but regardless I strongly disagree with your point.  It touches on the expert arrogance that I've pointed out a number of times.  A surgeon may have a much broader view and is entitled to question the conclusions of an epidemiologist.  We're all entitled to question or take advice counter to an expert.  We're entitled to our choice.
> 
> -We were against the doctor doing an amnio, he repeatedly assured us that it was safe.  It wasn't it....it resulted in a crash c-section, my daughter to be resuscitated at birth, a scalpel cut across her head, 6 weeks premature
> -My dad had been to just about every doctor including the Mayo clinic for a number of years.  No diagnosis other than possible dehydration.  I diagnosed it as Parkinson's, which was thereafter confirmed by a doctor
> -The anecdote about my mom telling the doctor that my dad need to be hydrated
> 
> Sorry, I'm not going to delegate my medical decisions to an "expert".  I will strongly consider their input, along with 2nd and likely 3rd opinions.  I'm not going to get a vaccination just because an epidemiologist recommends it, and surely not because a politician requires it.   I will, and did, consult with my doctor before making that decision.
> 
> You should get multiple medical opinions before making any serious decision.  I think your an idiot if you don't, but hey its your choice.  Let Darwin sort it out like Nova.Dad's examples likely point out.


Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## crush

"Hubby works for a large automotive group as a auto tech.  This last Monday they were given notice to get jabbed or else, "you're fired."  Several ppl walked out, some just said NO!  Yesterday, that all changed, no vax required."  Lady

Way to go Hubby.  Dont fall for the BS and lies.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> or the vaccine enters the blood cells and causes inflammation after being jabbed.


Inflammation is a natural response to activating the immune system.  For me for example, my family very likely had covid in march of last year just before the shutdown.  I subsequently had the Moderna vaxx.  First shot generated some localized inflammation at the site of injection which dissipated in several hours.  The booster, not surprisingly given my likely prior infection, was a bit of a whammy. I felt tired and out of sorts for about two days and then went away.  I maintain a reasonable level of fitness and am in good health.  Nonetheless what i highly suspect was covid hit me hard.  i remember thinking, this is probably covid.  I should get up and do a swab so when the genome comes out i can order some primers, pcr it up and see.  but moving seemed pretty optional at the time.  For the mRNA vaccines there is a risk of more serious types of inflammation (myocarditis, pericarditis) which is in the range of ~ 5 per million.

The inflammation that comes during the worst form of covid is not a normal immune response.  its more akin to an autoimmune disorder where your immune system kind of turns on itself.  This is the cytokine storm thing you've probably heard about.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> *Let me break it down for you Evil.*


Inflammation is a natural response to activating the immune system.  ((True))

For me for example, my family *very likely* had covid in march of last year just before the shutdown.  ((Me too, but in Jan))

I subsequently had the Moderna vaxx.  ((I'n truly sorry to hear that))

First shot generated some localized inflammation at the site of injection which dissipated in several hours.  ((Not good but it was only hours and not days or weeks))

The booster, not surprisingly given my likely prior infection, was a bit of a whammy.  ((I heard that from my Pal up in Kirkland.  He got sick again last month))

I felt tired and out of sorts for about two days and then went away.  ((no, it never went away.  I'm sorry about that.  It's still in your blood cells))

I maintain a reasonable level of fitness and am in good health.  ((Excellent. Stop eating meat asap and stop drinking booz, if you do))

Nonetheless what i highly suspect was covid hit me hard.  ((But not sure?  Which time, in March or after Jabs?))

i remember thinking, this is probably covid. ((???))

I should get up and do a swab so when the genome comes out i can order some primers, pcr it up and see.  but moving seemed pretty optional at the time.  ((sounds like you felt like poop))

For the mRNA vaccines there is a risk of more serious types of inflammation (myocarditis, pericarditis) which is in the range of ~ 5 per million.  ((so true))
The inflammation that comes during the worst form of covid is not a normal immune response.  ((ok))

its more akin to an autoimmune disorder where your immune system kind of turns on itself.  ((ok))

This is the cytokine storm thing you've probably heard about.  ((no, never heard of cytokine storm but I did hear the storm is coming))

Crush's diagnoses for you bro.  The fact you thought you got Rona back in March of 2020 meant you did not need the jabs ((moo)) and you should have known you have immunity.  Covid 19 is not what you got injected with, trust me.  You allowed something that Dr. F, Bill ((gross)) and his
Con-Workers invented at a lab in Wuhan into your blood cells.  I'm shocked!!!  Why would you do that?  Be honest too, no more lying.  That's insane dude from where I come from.  You got some Balls of Steel brother and I think you got a bio weapon at worse or at best you got placebo, that's if your lucky, MOO!


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #8*

The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The *highest degree of skill and care *should be required through all *stages of the experiment* *of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.*

Tell that to the poor old lady the cops threw in the cop cage.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Why would you do that?  Be honest too, no more lying.


Well, with infection against the initial variants my naturally acquired immunity would probably suffice just fine.  like I posted earlier the whole "which is better" argument is really a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.  Tough to measure the relevant variables, and there is going to be so much individual variation one way or another that it's kind of pointless to go round and round about it.  The whole thing about a vaccine is not to have better immunity but so that you get immunity without infection.  It's true I got vaxxed before delta, but with delta I really would not want to go any other way.  Not that natural infection might provide the requisite immunity, but because with the vaxx I know I have a really good spectrum of memory T cells capable of producing neutralizing antibodies broadly covering the spike protein-delta interface.  It's going to be hard for the virus to evolve away from that.

On the bioweapon thing.  I know the issue of who and what to trust is central here.  The main thing really.  But if you wanted to build a bioweapon this virus is not the way to do it.  First off, you'd want a capsid really smooth on the outside, sort of like rhinoviruses are.  So difficult to have long term immunity and difficult to vaxx.  Then you'd want a much higher IFR kill rate.  And a more moderate R0 infectiousness.  Then you could release it in high density urban cluster where you'd have lots of deaths and it would burn itself out fairly quickly.  More controlled.  So people would be left wondering where's it going to hit next, all the while knowing what is going to happen if it does.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, with infection against the initial variants my naturally acquired immunity would probably suffice just fine.  like I posted earlier the whole "which is better" argument is really a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.  Tough to measure the relevant variables, and there is going to be so much individual variation one way or another that it's kind of pointless to go round and round about it.  The whole thing about a vaccine is not to have better immunity but so that you get immunity without infection.  It's true I got vaxxed before delta, but with delta I really would not want to go any other way.  Not that natural infection might provide the requisite immunity, but because with the vaxx I know I have a really good spectrum of memory T cells capable of producing neutralizing antibodies broadly covering the spike protein-delta interface.  It's going to be hard for the virus to evolve away from that.
> 
> On the bioweapon thing.  I know the issue of who and what to trust is central here.  The main thing really.  But if you wanted to build a bioweapon this virus is not the way to do it.  First off, you'd want a capsid really smooth on the outside, sort of like rhinoviruses are.  So difficult to have long term immunity and difficult to vaxx.  Then you'd want a much higher IFR kill rate.  And a more moderate R0 infectiousness.  Then you could release it in high density urban cluster where you'd have lots of deaths and it would burn itself out fairly quickly.  More controlled.  So people would be left wondering where's it going to hit next, all the while knowing what is going to happen if it does.


I guess zombie life is next.  No offense, everything you just wrote makes zero sense but you took it and I'm sure you will live with the consequences.  Where I draw the line is when someone fires someone for saying, "NO!!!" or kid is blocked.  It's great you know how to make a better bio weapon and all but this thing is one big mess.  You and so many listened to Dr. F, a known liar.  Bill was in on it with Jeffrey.  You do understand that right?  Does that make you feel a little nervous what these boys were up to?  I forgot to ask.  Is Jesus the Lord?


----------



## crush

*Nuremberg Code #9*

During the course of the experiment, the* human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end*, if he has reached the physical or mental state, where continuation of the experiment seemed to him to be impossible.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> No offense


None taken.  You asked.  I answered.  That's me. You do you.  Like I said, your ability to bring these issues rapidly to their metaphorical endpoints and to network them to other areas is valued.  i find it refreshing actually.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> None taken.  You asked.  I answered.  That's me. You do you.  Like I said, your ability to bring these issues rapidly to their metaphorical endpoints and to network them to other areas is valued.  i find it refreshing actually.


I always get along with folks like you.  I will say I am 100% on top of my game.  It's starts with the inside first.


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> Zero covid is not one of your choices.  It’s neither the Gottlieb or uk approach.  China australia and New Zealand are still clinging to the fantasy of zero covid and you can see how that’s going. Believing in zero covid given how the vaccine is performing is a fantasy
> 
> neither is the no further variant possibility because most of the world won’t be vaccinated until 2023.
> 
> further you forwarded nothing to support your assertion the virus is “destructive” among the vaccinated…and if so you would be saying the vaccine is at least a partial failure
> 
> I asked for your opinion as to the two approaches and you threw up two fantasies.  Slightly disappointed as you struck me as thoughtful.


It sounds like we are talking about different issues.  The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations.  If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines. This should not be a fantasy anymore with the amazing development of efficacious vaccines.  When SARS-CoV2 infects cells, it can directly kill them, and it can also fuse cells to their neighbors, like a bunch of smaller bubbles merging together.  There's also potential for secondary damage.  Either route of exposure can lead to immunity, but one way avoids the damage.  

If an individual already has some immunity, then their immune system should be able to try to neutralize viruses that it can recognize when the individual is exposed. If they don't have a robust enough response relative to the virus, then the virus can cause damage. It partly becomes a numbers and timing problem when considering the battle between the virus and the immune system.  
The vaccine allows one to develop immunity without damage from infection.  That is the point, in addition to not allowing the host to effectively spread the virus.  If the virus is limited in it's ability to replicate or spread, the probability of variants emerging that can evade the immune system or that can be more damaging will be lower. Coronaviruses are great at not just mutating but also recombining, and the history of viruses shows that they don't always become more benign over time.

Any public health policy should be well grounded in the current knowledge, but will be necessarily impacted by realities and needs on the ground in their location.  For example, Vietnam did an amazing job for quite a while limiting covid in their country.  But, they have a robust medical system, quarantine facilities, and a government system that is strict. They also dealt with sars-cov1, and the population readily complies with public health edicts.    England will be very different.  Policies will also be impacted by what is available.  Some locations don't have good access to vaccines, for example, let alone boosters.  Some places have very limited medical facilities or staff.  

I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible.  Sorry to disappoint on that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Surgeons are trained to think of masks as PPE.  Make sure the patient does not infect the doctor.  Make sure the doctor doesn’t place germs into the patient’s open wound.  Important stuff.  Just not relevant to the question of masks for going to the grocery store.
> 
> Asking a surgeon about epidemiology is no more helpful than asking an epidemiologist to remove your appendix.  Each has their own area of expertise, and neither one knows how to do the other’s job.


When it comes to mask mandates, social distancing, or any other pandemic restriction, _what is the limiting principle_? Or, putting it differently, _under what conditions can we get back to normal_? Based on the public health logic currently in vogue, I fear that the answer is never and that *we are entering a new regime–the tyranny of tiny risks. --Ian Filmore*


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> It sounds like we are talking about different issues.  The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations.  If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines. This should not be a fantasy anymore with the amazing development of efficacious vaccines.  When SARS-CoV2 infects cells, it can directly kill them, and it can also fuse cells to their neighbors, like a bunch of smaller bubbles merging together.  There's also potential for secondary damage.  Either route of exposure can lead to immunity, but one way avoids the damage.
> 
> If an individual already has some immunity, then their immune system should be able to try to neutralize viruses that it can recognize when the individual is exposed. If they don't have a robust enough response relative to the virus, then the virus can cause damage. It partly becomes a numbers and timing problem when considering the battle between the virus and the immune system.
> The vaccine allows one to develop immunity without damage from infection.  That is the point, in addition to not allowing the host to effectively spread the virus.  If the virus is limited in it's ability to replicate or spread, the probability of variants emerging that can evade the immune system or that can be more damaging will be lower. Coronaviruses are great at not just mutating but also recombining, and the history of viruses shows that they don't always become more benign over time.
> 
> Any public health policy should be well grounded in the current knowledge, but will be necessarily impacted by realities and needs on the ground in their location.  For example, Vietnam did an amazing job for quite a while limiting covid in their country.  But, they have a robust medical system, quarantine facilities, and a government system that is strict. They also dealt with sars-cov1, and the population readily complies with public health edicts.    England will be very different.  Policies will also be impacted by what is available.  Some locations don't have good access to vaccines, for example, let alone boosters.  Some places have very limited medical facilities or staff.
> 
> I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible.  Sorry to disappoint on that.


Losers use kids as pawns.  









						Vaccine fanatics are coming for your kids
					

https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FearlessNation:7  CLICK TO CLAIM FREE LBC  https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FEARLESS_ONE:8  Help me Help others ▶ https://ko-fi.com/fearlessnation PAYPAL ▶ https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/fearlessnation Leave m…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Roadrunner said:


> it can also fuse cells to their neighbors,


The reason for that is remarkable.  Once it binds to the Ace2 receptor, the spike protein of Cov-2 has acquired the ability to allow the virus to efficiently use a mode of cell entry where it directly fuses with the outside of the cell.  This is in contrast to other C-viruses which tend to require first being engulfed by the cell prior to membrane penetration.  A consequence of viral fusion with the outside of the cell is that residual spike protein remains on the cell surface after viral entry.  That spike protein can then interact with the Ace2 receptor on a neighboring cell, leading the two cells to fuse.  This appears to greatly contributes to the aveolar tissue disorganization observed in severe covid cases.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Grace, I was correcting the assumption you made about my reaction to the video.  I'm not attacking any person, but I did criticize the video.
> 
> As to the question of what is the best policy for governments to pursue? I'm sure that depends on the situation in their particular area.  It also depends on what the goals are of the government or other group setting the policy. It's complex, as many on here have discussed.
> 
> From the biology side, knowing just how destructive this virus can be once set loose in our bodies and the damage that an infection can lead to, if given a choice, I would not want anyone to get infected.  There's also the risk that a variant with a high mortality rate could emerge. No one can know whether this will or won't happen.  This, I would advise against choices where the virus is permitted to thrive.


When it comes to mask mandates, social distancing, or any other pandemic restriction, _what is the limiting principle_? Or, putting it differently, _under what conditions can we get back to normal_? Based on the public health logic currently in vogue, I fear that the answer is never and that we are entering a new regime–the tyranny of tiny risks.--Ian Filmore


----------



## crush

It's game on folks.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations.  If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines.


As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population.  No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.



Roadrunner said:


> I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible.  Sorry to disappoint on that.


I think that's where most of us are coming from.  Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities.  The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population.  No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.
> 
> 
> I think that's where most of us are coming from.  Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities.  *The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.*


No they dont.  This was the old way of running things in America.  Not everyone treated people like shit and did whatever they could to make it to the top, including and not limited to cheating, buying a spot on the team, lying, lying, bribes, blackmail ((fang fang)) or worse.  Them days are finally coming to an end.  What your seeing right now are the small parts of the snake head squirming around.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population.  No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.
> 
> 
> I think that's where most of us are coming from.  Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities.  The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.


Agreed. I get where you are coming from on the question of how to handle (policywise) those who have had covid one or more times and have not been vaccinated.  At a practical level, are you advocating for people to be able to meet a vaccine requirement by showing some sort of proof they have had covid?  The real issue is wanting everyone to have good immune protection if possible, and then asking what metric or proxy is then useful.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Meanwhile, all eyes are on Florida, because the media establishment despises Ron DeSantis, but lunatic Washington state just set an all-time record for hospitalizations:


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> Agreed. I get where you are coming from on the question of how to handle (policywise) those who have had covid one or more times and have not been vaccinated.  At a practical level, are you advocating for people to be able to meet a vaccine requirement by showing some sort of proof they have had covid?  The real issue is wanting everyone to have good immune protection if possible, and then asking what metric or proxy is then useful.


Personally I'm not in favor of having to meet any vaccine requirement for things like having dinner out, or for providing proof of a prior positive Covid test.  I can see a good faith argument for requiring vaccines in Healthcare and military, but it's still problematic for me as a blanket approach.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem in the past that we've ever mandated or required a vaccine this soon after a vaccine was developed, certainly not before it was FDA approved (apparently Pfizer is coming on Monday).  How long after certain vaccines were developed were they required for public education?

The Covid vaccinations are certainly one of the greatest accomplishments in medical history. However, I can appreciate people's skepticism given the pace that Covid information has been changing, sometimes in contradiction to previous information.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> It sounds like we are talking about different issues.  The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations.  If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines. This should not be a fantasy anymore with the amazing development of efficacious vaccines.  When SARS-CoV2 infects cells, it can directly kill them, and it can also fuse cells to their neighbors, like a bunch of smaller bubbles merging together.  There's also potential for secondary damage.  Either route of exposure can lead to immunity, but one way avoids the damage.
> 
> If an individual already has some immunity, then their immune system should be able to try to neutralize viruses that it can recognize when the individual is exposed. If they don't have a robust enough response relative to the virus, then the virus can cause damage. It partly becomes a numbers and timing problem when considering the battle between the virus and the immune system.
> The vaccine allows one to develop immunity without damage from infection.  That is the point, in addition to not allowing the host to effectively spread the virus.  If the virus is limited in it's ability to replicate or spread, the probability of variants emerging that can evade the immune system or that can be more damaging will be lower. Coronaviruses are great at not just mutating but also recombining, and the history of viruses shows that they don't always become more benign over time.
> 
> Any public health policy should be well grounded in the current knowledge, but will be necessarily impacted by realities and needs on the ground in their location.  For example, Vietnam did an amazing job for quite a while limiting covid in their country.  But, they have a robust medical system, quarantine facilities, and a government system that is strict. They also dealt with sars-cov1, and the population readily complies with public health edicts.    England will be very different.  Policies will also be impacted by what is available.  Some locations don't have good access to vaccines, for example, let alone boosters.  Some places have very limited medical facilities or staff.
> 
> I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible.  Sorry to disappoint on that.


Yes we are talking different issues. You are talking about a different question.  Neither one of the 2 approaches under discussion is don’t vaccinate.  And it’s a fair response re the 3rd world…this is excluding any country without a vaccine response 

the issue is the blue state us response and the  Uk response are beginning to diverge. Extrapolating a bit here but the blue state is response is ongoing low level npis keeping people from being infected until the booster and maybe delta specific boosters are available. It has no end date for npi restrictions and advocates like Gottlieb readily admit it may be 1-3 more years to normalcy. The uk response is remove almost all restrictions and the booster (except for the most vulnerable) is natural infection.  Incidentally that also frees up vaccine doses for use in the 3rd world.  The Uk approach means returning to something close like normalcy now. That’s the choice I had asked you to comment on but you seem to prefer friendlier ground of your choosing.


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> I guess zombie life is next.  No offense, everything you just wrote makes zero sense but you took it and I'm sure you will live with the consequences.  Where I draw the line is when someone fires someone for saying, "NO!!!" or kid is blocked.  It's great you know how to make a better bio weapon and all but this thing is one big mess.  You and so many listened to Dr. F, a known liar.  Bill was in on it with Jeffrey.  You do understand that right?  Does that make you feel a little nervous what these boys were up to?  I forgot to ask.  Is Jesus the Lord?


@crush

I’m sorry man… I feel like the older sibling that ruined Santa… you know ‘EvilGoalie 21” by another name.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> @crush
> 
> I’m sorry man… I feel like the older sibling that ruined Santa… you know ‘EvilGoalie 21” by another name.


Well, actually I was just trying to wrap my head around the idea that it's going to be pretty thin under the tree for me this year.  What with lyin', cheatin', reading filthy books, working on behalf of know or alleged pedophiles and now apparently unleashing the zombie apocalypse I have a feeling I'm on the Big Guy's naughty list.  That's probably not even a complete tally.  With a quarter of a year left to go.  And here I was hoping for a new PCR machine.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

And a new pair of goalie gloves that don't have to be transported between games and practice tied down to the outside of the car.  I guess I can kiss that goodbye too.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> And a new pair of goalie gloves that don't have to be transported between games and practice tied down to the outside of the car.  I guess I can kiss that goodbye too.


What’s wrong with outside the car?  It’s the only thing that works.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> What’s wrong with outside the car?  It’s the only thing that works.


yep.  it's like carrying a dead skunk around.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, actually I was just trying to wrap my head around the idea that it's going to be pretty thin under the tree for me this year.  What with lyin', cheatin', reading filthy books, working on behalf of know or alleged pedophiles and now apparently unleashing the zombie apocalypse I have a feeling I'm on the Big Guy's naughty list.  That's probably not even a complete tally.  With a quarter of a year left to go.  And here I was hoping for a new PCR machine.


Hahahahaha Evil.  I'm trying to find work today and food for next month so keep me in your thoughts.  The pressure is on me like no other time in my life.  I mean that 100%.  As a man, I can;t buy & sell unless I get jabbed.  You think this is funny, dont you?  I was at Trader Joes yesterday.  I'm starting to see regular folks with signs asking for help.  This is going to get a lot worse for middle class families and giggle all you want.  I know you and the others think this is all fun & games trying to ruin other peoples ability to live.  BTW, Hunter is the only one I know who reported to the Big Guy.  You will see the truth some day Evil.


----------



## crush

What a wonderful place to live....not!!

*NYC vaccination program will require IDs to eat indoors to prevent 'fraud'*
*New York was the first city in the nation to require such proof of vaccination*

*"The ID requirement is to help reduce fraud.* Venues covered by the vax screening program are required to check ID for those 18+. Checking ID for 12+ is optional. The NYC Covid Safe app allows you to upload a picture of your ID if you don't want to carry it," he added.


----------



## crush

*Surgeon general expects more businesses will mandate COVID-19 vaccine after FDA approval*

"This is important for a couple of reasons," Murthy said about the FDA approval. "Number one, there were some people who may have been waiting for this, and who may come up in the sense, so to speak, to get vaccinated. So, it may help increase vaccination rates to some extent. But I also think that there are *universities and businesses that have been considering putting in vaccine requirements* in order to create a safer, a workplace, a learning environment. And I think this announcement from the FDA would likely encourage them and make them feel more comfortable in putting some requirements in place."

I will do my best to look for a way to make a living but I will never get jabbed.  My buddy is not doing well you guys.  I have first hand eye witness news.  Let's see what happens when push comes to shove.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

“Few people will ever go broke overestimating the desire among Americans to inflict punishment on their perceived political enemies. But not only will blue-state vax requirements end up disproportionately impacting Democratic-voting minority populations, they will also discourage basic human activity among populations that have already long since been nudged into vaccination.”


----------



## crush

I just watched a video of a German Doctor ((30 years looking at blood cells)) and her two attorneys just showed me and others wtf is going on under the microscope.  The blood cells stack up on each other.  They light up and become positive charged.  She has never seen anything like it.  She has death threats and the lawyers are concerned to take it to the judges because?  Watch out is all I can say.  This is where the rubble meets the road.  Good luck you guys and stay safe and just say no until you know more.  Fear based life is soon coming to an end soon


----------



## Desert Hound

No I don't have an issue with people at a Pelosi fundraiser not wearing a mask. I would be wearing one there either.

I do however have an issue when in public she is pushing mask mandates, has one for the House, etc. And of course every time she is on TV whether outdoors or indoors you can see her with a mask.

Rules are for the little people.









						Video shows hordes of maskless people at Pelosi  fundraiser
					

Nancy Pelosi was apparently caught addressing an outdoor crowd of mask-less Democratic big wigs in COVID-19-riddled Napa Valley over the weekend.




					nypost.com


----------



## crush

JUST IN - NYC mandates vaccinations for all public school teachers, staff. No way to opt out. It marks the *first flat-out vaccination mandate* for city workers in the nation’s most populous city (AP)


----------



## crush

The US Food and Drug Administration on Monday granted *full approval* to the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine for people age 16 and older. This is the *first coronavirus vaccine approved by the FDA*, and is expected to *open the door to more vaccine mandates.*
"The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and *will now be marketed as Comirnaty,* for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older,"

This weekend, officials familiar with the decision said they discussed how to prepare for the rollout once the FDA grants full approval, given it will be a major messaging opportunity to encourage vaccination. 



Albert Bourla, the chair and chief executive officer of Pfizer, said the decision reaffirms the vaccine's safety.



> “*Based on the longer-term* follow-up data that *we submitted*, today’s approval for those aged 16 and over affirms the efficacy and safety profile of our vaccine at a time when it is urgently needed. I am hopeful this approval will help increase confidence in our vaccine, as vaccination remains the best tool we have to help protect lives and achieve herd immunity. *Hundreds of millions of doses of our vaccine already have been administered in the U.S. since December 2020, and we look forward to continuing to work with the U.S. government to reach more Americans,"* Bourla said.





*He wants all of you.  I wish you all the best......

*


----------



## Grace T.

There's a little bit for everyone to hate in this one......









						Let's Stop Pretending About the Covid-19 Vaccines
					

As a family physician, I spend my days dispensing advice. I mean, there’s the occasional cast, skin biopsy, or shot, but most of my patients are seeing me for medical counsel. Never have I been




					www.realclearscience.com


----------



## crush

*And the winner is?

*


----------



## dad4

It’s 


Grace T. said:


> There's a little bit for everyone to hate in this one......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's Stop Pretending About the Covid-19 Vaccines
> 
> 
> As a family physician, I spend my days dispensing advice. I mean, there’s the occasional cast, skin biopsy, or shot, but most of my patients are seeing me for medical counsel. Never have I been
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realclearscience.com


That article is just not very well thought out.  It jumps to dramatic contrarian positions very quickly, without bothering to scope out the problem space.

For example, it presents impressive sounding numbers about asymptomatic infections of vaccinated people.  Why do we care about asymptomatic infections?  She doesn’t say.  What kind of spread is occurring from symptomatic cases?  She does a half hearted back of the envelope swag to assert that it must be large.  

Then more of the same.  She repeated gives half an argument, but presents it as a definitive conclusion.  

Reads like this forum.


----------



## Grace T.

Score another for Bruddah and the UK approach.  Antibodies decrease faster in vaccinated people than recovered natural immunity people.

The open question of course is that antibodies always wane...the relevant question now is what impact that has on disease.









						Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection
					

Background Immune protection following either vaccination or infection with SARS-CoV-2 decreases over time.  Objective To determine the kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 IgG antibodies following administration of two doses of BNT162b2 vaccine, or SARS-CoV-2 infection in unvaccinated individuals.  Methods...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It’s
> 
> That article is just not very well thought out.  It jumps to dramatic contrarian positions very quickly, without bothering to scope out the problem space.
> 
> For example, it presents impressive sounding numbers about asymptomatic infections of vaccinated people.  Why do we care about asymptomatic infections?  She doesn’t say.  What kind of spread is occurring from symptomatic cases?  She does a half hearted back of the envelope swag to assert that it must be large.
> 
> Then more of the same.  She repeated gives half an argument, but presents it as a definitive conclusion.
> 
> Reads like this forum.


Another mea culpa regarding cases this time.  Please continue.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Score another for Bruddah and the UK approach.  Antibodies decrease faster in vaccinated people than recovered natural immunity people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection
> 
> 
> Background Immune protection following either vaccination or infection with SARS-CoV-2 decreases over time.  Objective To determine the kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 IgG antibodies following administration of two doses of BNT162b2 vaccine, or SARS-CoV-2 infection in unvaccinated individuals.  Methods...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


Why?   Are antibodies now responsible for long term immunity?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Why?   Are antibodies now responsible for long term immunity?


Not entirely on their own but they are  an important part of the equation.


----------



## crush

Wow, I knew the stamp of FDA Full Approval on it would get some places cocky, but their true colors are now out.  That was quick.  Most work places so far are requiring all workers to take the vax unless the person has a damn good religious reason not to get the jab.  So it will be the Normal Vaxxed People vs The Hardcore Religious Objectors.  This is starting to look really odd and strange. The crazy religious folks must test negative to enter work every week on their own dime and time and prove it with a negative.  Plus wear a mask with all the vaxxed.  I think the Vaxxed should get tested for Covid too since they can spread this virus still.  The double standard is ridiculous and needs to stop asap.  All of this so lame.  Wait until I share an email exchange I just had with a old friend who thinks Im not acting in the best interest of mankind or my family.  In order to work at my buddies place, they have to test every week on their own dime and turn in papers to prove their not sick with virus.  Everyone has to wear a mask.  This is the only way to operate I guess.  It's weird how this is starting to really get to the bottom of jab or no jab.


----------



## crush

Biden is calling for business to be the one's who do the mandating and the schools.  This is interesting way to cause division and not be big brother doing it like down under.  Let's see how this plays out.


----------



## Grace T.

The BBC now on the Gottlieb booster approach v. the natural immunity booster approach









						Covid: What’s the best way to top up our immunity?
					

Now we have some protection, do we need to keep boosting or can nature take its course?



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The BBC now on the Gottlieb booster approach v. the natural immunity booster approach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: What’s the best way to top up our immunity?
> 
> 
> Now we have some protection, do we need to keep boosting or can nature take its course?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


It is good they are noticing/asking questions such as these?


There is clear evidence that adults who have not had any vaccine dose will have stronger immune defences if they do get vaccinated, even if they have caught Covid before.
But there are two big questions:

do vaccinated adults need to be boosted, or is exposure to the virus enough?
do children need vaccinating at all, or does a lifetime of encountering build a good immune defence?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The BBC now on the Gottlieb booster approach v. the natural immunity booster approach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: What’s the best way to top up our immunity?
> 
> 
> Now we have some protection, do we need to keep boosting or can nature take its course?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Quick highlights from my speed reading.  I can actually look at a page, take a quick a pic in my brain and go after it.  Thanks Grace

"We could be digging ourselves into a hole, for a very long time, where we think we can only keep Covid away by boosting every year," Prof Eleanor Riley, an immunologist from the University of Edinburgh, told me. 

Prof Adam Finn, a government vaccine adviser, said over-vaccinating people, when other parts of the world had none, was "a bit insane, it's not just inequitable, it's stupid".


----------



## NorCalDad

There are two rules in life that I try to follow:

- Never, under any circumstance, get behind a Prius.

- Never, ever, be on the same side as Alex Jones. 

Do what you want with those.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> There are two rules in life that I try to follow:
> 
> - Never, under any circumstance, get behind a Prius.
> 
> - Never, ever, be on the same side as Alex Jones.
> 
> Do what you want with those.


Occasionally Jones may be right. Never get behind a Prius. 

That is the difference.

And no I am no fan of Jones.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> Never, ever, be on the same side as Alex Jones


And he is an idiot. I didn't edit in time above.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Quick highlights from my speed reading.  I can actually look at a page, take a quick a pic in my brain and go after it.  Thanks Grace
> 
> "We could be digging ourselves into a hole, for a very long time, where we think we can only keep Covid away by boosting every year," Prof Eleanor Riley, an immunologist from the University of Edinburgh, told me.
> 
> Prof Adam Finn, a government vaccine adviser, said over-vaccinating people, when other parts of the world had none, was "a bit insane, it's not just inequitable, it's stupid".


Your speed reading failed you.  You saw what you wanted to see.

They are not arguing that you should skip your first shot.

They are arguing that there is no point in giving me a third shot.  It’s a good argument.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

I clicked on the Israeli serology study linked earlier today.  Here's my 2 cents.

It's a nice set of data.  Given their vaxx data is weighted towards the beginning and end points, I would not be surprised if during review they were asked to comment on the possibility that their regression line is actually composed of two kinetic components (ie a fast initial drop followed by a slope similar to convalescent plasma) and is not a simple linear relationship.  That might make a lot of sense. To look at it I superimposed their vaxx and convalescent scatter plots as on graph below, adjusting the x-axis since the vaxx data ends at 6 months while the convalescnent data set goes out further. 

The main thing I'd point out is in regards to the y-axis, which is on a log scale.  Each dot is the anti-S antibody titer of an individual as determined from a blood sample. Blue for vaxx, red for infection. For both groups, like I was saying the other day, there is huge (~1000X) variability from one person to another in antibody titer.  Who, among these people, would be most prone for possibly symptomatic re-infection or (as it is being termed for vaxxed) breakthrough infection?  Well, probably people with lower titers towards the bottom of the y-axis.  Note you find both red and blue dot people down there.  

The x-axis is then tracking out how circulating titer decays over time, which is their main focus.  There's a clear ~10X initial higher titer with vaxx, which drop to superimposable levels with CoV-2 infection titers within 6 months.  To know if they'd keep dropping according to the slope of their regression line they'd need to run it out further.  

So if somebody wants to look at this data and interpret it to mean that vaxx or CoV-2 infection is somehow a "better" way to prime an immune response I don't know what aspect of the data that would be.  It just seems a silly argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that it's the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein.  Nor is the study trying to make a "this is better than that" distinction.  They are interested in the titer kinetics with respect to possible timing of boosters for immunocomp and vulnerable people.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> keep me in your thoughts.   You think this is funny, dont you? Hunter.  You will see the truth some day Evil.


I still have some good old King James racked up upstairs, so I will send you "the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it". John if I recall.  2008 really sucked for me.  You can make it.  Keep going. 

Parts of it are funny.  Other parts not so much.  Complexity reduced to mutually exclusive this or that incompatibilities, networked into diametrically opposed sets of unrelated things equated with good and bad.  Of course a mutually agreed upon framework to sort things out becomes increasingly untenable.  Media controls and distorts the narrative.   Everyone understands that now, but it may not be possible to fix it in time.  I see that as part of the truth of the moment.

Hunter.  I assume you mean Biden.  I am not on a first name basis with all these people.  I saw Igor Fruman has decided to change his plea, however.  I wonder where that might be going.

Here's a quote from a book written by a smart, but subversive, person.  Not a good person, worse than me.  Unfortunately, much of it seems to be prescentient.  

"We created a society. Organised a rebellion of two-dimensional people against the complex and cunning. We are against those who never say ‘yes’ or ‘no’… who know the third word. There are many third words… confusing the ways, darkening truth… in these darknesses and cobwebs hides and multiplies all the dirt of the world. They are the house of Satan. There they make money and bombs… We begin tomorrow. We will win. Or lose. A third way is not available."


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I clicked on the Israeli serology study linked earlier today.  Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> It's a nice set of data.  Given their vaxx data is weighted towards the beginning and end points, I would not be surprised if during review they were asked to comment on the possibility that their regression line is actually composed of two kinetic components (ie a fast initial drop followed by a slope similar to convalescent plasma) and is not a simple linear relationship.  That might make a lot of sense. To look at it I superimposed their vaxx and convalescent scatter plots as on graph below, adjusting the x-axis since the vaxx data ends at 6 months while the convalescnent data set goes out further.
> 
> The main thing I'd point out is in regards to the y-axis, which is on a log scale.  Each dot is the anti-S antibody titer of an individual as determined from a blood sample. Blue for vaxx, red for infection. For both groups, like I was saying the other day, there is huge (~1000X) variability from one person to another in antibody titer.  Who, among these people, would be most prone for possibly symptomatic re-infection or (as it is being termed for vaxxed) breakthrough infection?  Well, probably people with lower titers towards the bottom of the y-axis.  Note you find both red and blue dot people down there.
> 
> The x-axis is then tracking out how circulating titer decays over time, which is their main focus.  There's a clear ~10X initial higher titer with vaxx, which drop to superimposable levels with CoV-2 infection titers within 6 months.  To know if they'd keep dropping according to the slope of their regression line they'd need to run it out further.
> 
> So if somebody wants to look at this data and interpret it to mean that vaxx or CoV-2 infection is somehow a "better" way to prime an immune response I don't know what aspect of the data that would be.  It just seems a silly argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that it's the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein.  Nor is the study trying to make a "this is better than that" distinction.  They are interested in the titer kinetics with respect to possible timing of boosters for immunocomp and vulnerable people.
> 
> View attachment 11514


Because of the drop, which as you say needs to be run out further.  It raises the policy question well if they are dropping what do we do about it because we don’t want people to be vulnerable again.  Gottlieb talks about booster (but that means npis including if things get bad renewed lockdowns because you want to protect people who are on the lower end of protective immunity) or the Uk approach (which involves natural infection as the booster and removing restrictions because you want the virus to circulate).  The Israeli study does not dive into the dichotomy…but it does create it.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Your speed reading failed you.  You saw what you wanted to see.


OK


EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I still have some good old King James racked up upstairs, so I will send you "the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it". John if I recall.  2008 really sucked for me.  You can make it.  Keep going.
> 
> Parts of it are funny.  Other parts not so much.




*"So that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name."*  This is going on as I write. No jab=no job.  No mark ((no proof of Jab)), no buy or sell?  I'm not sure if this the big event people have been waiting on for 1000s of years but man, some of you took the "shot of the beast" so fast I was a little surprised.  I will 100% never take the "shot of the beast" or his boosters made from Dr. Fraud and his pals who are getting so rich with the root of all Evil.  You guys are all in and looks like no turning back.  This is 100% a Jim Jones Kool Aid Spike Protein.  Some of you went on that Jim Jones Kool Aid GDA boat ride and I was 100% right about that ship wreak. This is 100% worse, I swear.  Here are some extra scriptures for you and Dad.  I do read quickly and I will admit with no regret, I like to cherry pick what I like, just like everyone else.  It's human nature to like to be right. I have read the bible for over 35 years, 30 of them everyday. 

*The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.  *


*Mark this down Evil & Dad of 4 kids: There will be terrible times in the last days.  People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.  They are the kind WHO worm their way into taking advantage of woman who just need some love and kindness.  *


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Because of the drop, which as you say needs to be run out further.  It raises the policy question well if they are dropping what do we do about it because we don’t want people to be vulnerable again.  Gottlieb talks about booster (but that means npis including if things get bad renewed lockdowns because you want to protect people who are on the lower end of protective immunity) or the Uk approach (which involves natural infection as the booster and removing restrictions because you want the virus to circulate).  The Israeli study does not dive into the dichotomy…but it does create it.


Why would the existence of a booster shot make lockdowns more likely?

I don’t think you’ll see many more business closures.   High vax areas aren’t getting large enough spikes to provoke lockdown discussions.  Low vax areas don’t have political support for business closures.

 Short of a truly vaccine resistant variant, i would bet businesses stay open.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why would the existence of a booster shot make lockdowns more likely?
> 
> I don’t think you’ll see many more business closures.   High vax areas aren’t getting large enough spikes to provoke lockdown discussions.  Low vax areas don’t have political support for business closures.
> 
> Short of a truly vaccine resistant variant, i would bet businesses stay open.


There’s a lot to unpack here.  Theoretically if you go with Gottlieb approach you need low level npis to protect the vulnerable (and unvaxxed kids) until they can get their boosters. Again that’s just to be logically consistent but policy is messy and not always logical. 

your position is belied by the fact that Hawaii, despite a high vaccination rate and masks, has hit record case numbers (4x prior peaks) and has imposed already restrictions on bars restaurants and has other measures (such as beach closures on the table)

but I think, at least in the us (and my answer was larger than just the us or SoCal) the answer to your assumption turns on whether newsom is recalled. If he is, I think the blue states might actually be cowed enough to not do business closures during any hypothetical winter waves.  If he isn’t and the wave gets bad enough, I think you could see things like school closures, shutting down indoor dining and bars, shutting down gyms and theaters, shutting down large events or putting capacity restrictions again like on Disneyland. Again remember the rule in California: you cannot shut schools if the kids during the shuttered school day can go to Disneyland.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *I don’t think you’ll see many more business closures.*
> 
> *Short of a truly vaccine resistant variant, i would bet businesses stay open.*


Hey wise dad, have you ever owned a biz or at least attempted to start one?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why?   Are antibodies now responsible for long term immunity?


Because you only deal in the now.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I clicked on the Israeli serology study linked earlier today.  Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> It's a nice set of data.  Given their vaxx data is weighted towards the beginning and end points, I would not be surprised if during review they were asked to comment on the possibility that their regression line is actually composed of two kinetic components (ie a fast initial drop followed by a slope similar to convalescent plasma) and is not a simple linear relationship.  That might make a lot of sense. To look at it I superimposed their vaxx and convalescent scatter plots as on graph below, adjusting the x-axis since the vaxx data ends at 6 months while the convalescnent data set goes out further.
> 
> The main thing I'd point out is in regards to the y-axis, which is on a log scale.  Each dot is the anti-S antibody titer of an individual as determined from a blood sample. Blue for vaxx, red for infection. For both groups, like I was saying the other day, there is huge (~1000X) variability from one person to another in antibody titer.  Who, among these people, would be most prone for possibly symptomatic re-infection or (as it is being termed for vaxxed) breakthrough infection?  Well, probably people with lower titers towards the bottom of the y-axis.  Note you find both red and blue dot people down there.
> 
> The x-axis is then tracking out how circulating titer decays over time, which is their main focus.  There's a clear ~10X initial higher titer with vaxx, which drop to superimposable levels with CoV-2 infection titers within 6 months.  To know if they'd keep dropping according to the slope of their regression line they'd need to run it out further.
> 
> So if somebody wants to look at this data and interpret it to mean that vaxx or CoV-2 infection is somehow a "better" way to prime an immune response I don't know what aspect of the data that would be.  It just seems a silly argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that it's the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein.  Nor is the study trying to make a "this is better than that" distinction.  They are interested in the titer kinetics with respect to possible timing of boosters for immunocomp and vulnerable people.
> 
> View attachment 11514


It just seems an even sillier argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein BUT one enters the blood stream directly while natural infection does not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would the existence of a booster shot make lockdowns more likely?
> 
> I don’t think you’ll see many more business closures.   High vax areas aren’t getting large enough spikes to provoke lockdown discussions.  Low vax areas don’t have political support for business closures.
> 
> Short of a truly vaccine resistant variant, i would bet businesses stay open.


That's good.  It's about time we get away from denying people their rights to due process as government has been brutally abrogating contracts as an illegal third party to those contracts.


----------



## Desert Hound

_"Children are being sentenced to another round of unnecessary mask mandates and probably more school closures based on evidence-free warnings from Anthony Fauci and others that the Delta variant will be more deadly to them than the original virus. While the variant is more infectious, the evidence does not show it to be any more lethal. In fact, the current mortality rate among American children with Covid is lower than it was last year—and last year many more children died of the flu than of Covid. One of the most thorough studies, in England, *shows that the survival rate for those under 18 with Covid is 99.995 percent.* But instead of emphasizing these reassuring statistics, public-health officials like Jerome Adams, the former surgeon general, keep looking for new ways to scare parents and children.

“I’m an anesthesiologist,” he tweeted last weekend. *“And a dad. And I can assure you in both capacities that your child will be far more comfortable if they’re in a face mask, than on a ventilator.* If you’re making a choice on behalf of a child, please choose based on their comfort, vs yours.” He offered no new evidence that children are at heightened risk from the virus, much less any evidence that a mask would make any difference, but he did make sure to include a gruesome photograph of a child on a ventilator."

--_

It is crap like that from "experts" that push us away from their pronouncements. The data shows kids have no risk. And yet they pretend otherwise and make believe the virus is coming for the kids.

--

" _Even Robert Redfield, who made unsubstantiated claims for mask efficacy last year while he was directing the CDC, now concedes that there is a *“paucity of data” to support mask mandates.* When asked if the CDC is wrong to be recommending masks for schoolchildren, he replied, “I’m saying that I haven’t been able to review data that supports that recommendation.”

His successors at the agency, unfortunately, seem less interested in reviewing data than in hiding it. As David Zweig reported in New York, *when researchers from the CDC compared Covid-mitigation techniques at 169 elementary schools in Georgia, they found no statistically significant reduction of infections in schools that required masks for students, enforced social distancing, or installed barriers between desks.* Those were important findings because it was the first such large study, but the CDC did not even mention them in the summary of research that it published. Instead, the agency went on recommending masks for all students.

The European Union’s equivalent of the CDC, the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, has sensibly recommended against masking students under age 12 because of the physical, psychological, and social harms to children, but American officials have made no effort to weigh the costs and benefits. The National Institutes of Health hasn’t even bothered to study the negative impacts of its mask policies on children. Dozens of other researchers, though, have demonstrated an array of problems called “Mask-Induced Exhaustion Syndrome.” The problems include decrease in blood oxygen saturation; increase in blood carbon dioxide; increase in heart and respiratory rates; difficulty breathing; dizziness; headache; drowsiness; and decreased ability to concentrate and think.

Masking children at minimal risk from the virus was justified last year on the grounds that it might prevent infections of vulnerable adults who had no defense against the virus. *But now that vaccines are readily available, why harm children for the sake of adults who have deliberately chosen not to protect themselves? Since when do children bear responsibility for adults’ decisions?*

The mask mandates for children can’t be justified on ethical or scientific grounds, but they persist because they serve the interests of a certain class of adults. The purpose of this hygiene theater was described with blunt accuracy by Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor and one of the few politicians who has actually been following the science during the pandemic. “Politicians,” he explained, “want to force you to cover your face as a way for them to cover their own asses.”









						Will Policymakers Let the Covid Crisis End? | City Journal
					

Reluctant to set the public free, policymakers and the public-health bureaucracy set unachievable and unnecessary goals.




					www.city-journal.org
				



_


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> There’s a lot to unpack here.  Theoretically if you go with Gottlieb approach you need low level npis to protect the vulnerable (and unvaxxed kids) until they can get their boosters. Again that’s just to be logically consistent but policy is messy and not always logical.
> 
> your position is belied by the fact that *Hawaii, despite a high vaccination rate and masks, has hit record case numbers *(4x prior peaks) and has imposed already restrictions on bars restaurants and has other measures (such as beach closures on the table)
> 
> but I think, at least in the us (and my answer was larger than just the us or SoCal) the answer to your assumption turns on whether newsom is recalled. If he is, I think the blue states might actually be cowed enough to not do business closures during any hypothetical winter waves.  If he isn’t and the wave gets bad enough, I think you could see things like school closures, shutting down indoor dining and bars, shutting down gyms and theaters, shutting down large events or putting capacity restrictions again like on Disneyland. Again remember the rule in California: you cannot shut schools if the kids during the shuttered school day can go to Disneyland.


One more example of where your words don’t match the numbers.  

You claim HI has a “high vaccination rate.”.  Their vaccination rate is 55%, very close to the national average of 52%.  They rank 20 out of 52.  That counts a “middling”, not high. 

You claim “record case numbers.”.    They have 49 cases per 100K.  The nation has 45 cases per 100K.   Puts them at 17th out of 52.  Again, that counts as “middling”.  If it is a record, that is only a sign that their old numbers were low- which they were.

If you’re not going to be honest with your representation of the data, there is no point in talking.

Hawaii is an outlier.  They have average vaccinations but below average past infections.   This means they have below average overall immunity.  So cases rise and they are blaming outsiders.   

Typical, but it’s not at all indicative of what will happen in other states.  No one else has Hawaii’s combination of low past cases and a so-so vaccination rate.  Closest is Oregon, who have 4% more vaccinations and almost double the past infections.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> the same protein BUT one enters the blood stream directly while natural infection does not


The vaccines contain genetic instructions to make the spike protein, not the spike protein itself.  They are not attenuated viral vaccines.  The genetic instructions are surrounded by either an adenovirus or lipidic nanoparticle coating that fuses with cellular membranes in an analogous fashion to CoV-2 cell entry.  In both cases, the spike protein is expressed, proteolyzed, engulfed and displayed on thee surface of antigen presenting cells within the circulatory system, triggering the active immune response.  If you are trying to make a point about innate immunity you need to spell it out.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> One more example of where your words don’t match the numbers.
> 
> You claim HI has a “high vaccination rate.”.  Their vaccination rate is 55%, very close to the national average of 52%.  They rank 20 out of 52.  That counts a “middling”, not high.
> 
> You claim “record case numbers.”.    They have 49 cases per 100K.  The nation has 45 cases per 100K.   Puts them at 17th out of 52.  Again, that counts as “middling”.  If it is a record, that is only a sign that their old numbers were low- which they were.
> 
> If you’re not going to be honest with your representation of the data, there is no point in talking.
> 
> Hawaii is an outlier.  They have average vaccinations but below average past infections.   This means they have below average overall immunity.  So cases rise and they are blaming outsiders.
> 
> Typical, but it’s not at all indicative of what will happen in other states.  No one else has Hawaii’s combination of low past cases and a so-so vaccination rate.  Closest is Oregon, who have 4% more vaccinations and almost double the past infections.



Err Hawaii is over 60% unless they are putting out false press









						Hawaii hits 60% mark for vaccinations - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
					

Sixty percent of Hawaii residents are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19 — three weeks after the state was expected to hit that benchmark.




					www.hawaiitribune-herald.com
				




Yes, they are having a record number of cases for them.  It's fair to say relative to other states it's not a record.  Your point is a fair one.  But they, despite the restrictions, have hit records for them.  Masks seem to be working there!









						Hawaii COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Hawaii COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




I agree Hawaii is an outlier.  That's bad news for Australia/New Zealand...they are looking at fortressing for at least another year if they want to avoid the same effect as Hawaii.  I agree also it's not at all indicative of what will happen in other states, with the big variable being we don't know how the delta will evolve.  But I do think the politics are indictive of what will happen, particularly if Newsom wins the recall.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Hey wise dad, have you ever owned a biz or at least attempted to start one?


Yes.  I’ve also had to try to collect rent during covid.

It’s part of why I support masks and vaccine passports.  Annoying, but better than shurdowns.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> One more example of where your words don’t match the numbers.
> 
> You claim HI has a “high vaccination rate.”.  Their vaccination rate is 55%, very close to the national average of 52%.  They rank 20 out of 52.  That counts a “middling”, not high.
> 
> You claim “record case numbers.”.    They have 49 cases per 100K.  The nation has 45 cases per 100K.   Puts them at 17th out of 52.  Again, that counts as “middling”.  If it is a record, that is only a sign that their old numbers were low- which they were.
> 
> If you’re not going to be honest with your representation of the data, there is no point in talking.
> 
> Hawaii is an outlier.  They have average vaccinations but below average past infections.   This means they have below average overall immunity.  So cases rise and they are blaming outsiders.
> 
> Typical, but it’s not at all indicative of what will happen in other states.  No one else has Hawaii’s combination of low past cases and a so-so vaccination rate.  Closest is Oregon, who have 4% more vaccinations and almost double the past infections.


Data source?


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It just seems an even sillier argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein BUT one enters the blood stream directly while natural infection does not.


Adding foreign shit to your blood cells is weird science where I come from Bruddah.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Yes.  I’ve also had to try to collect rent during covid.
> 
> It’s part of why I support masks and vaccine passports.  Annoying, but better than shurdowns.


Teacher going around trying to collect rent during Covid is interesting.  I do have a pal who is big time Principle and owns three homes.  He got in after people lost their homes in 2007-2008.  He waited and got in at the right time.  Today, one of them is not paying and now he's going backwards.  He freaks out when he loses money.  Good luck dad and please be nice to to your renters and students.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The vaccines contain genetic instructions to make the spike protein, not the spike protein itself.  They are not attenuated viral vaccines.  The genetic instructions are surrounded by either an adenovirus or lipidic nanoparticle coating that fuses with cellular membranes in an analogous fashion to CoV-2 cell entry.  In both cases, the spike protein is expressed, proteolyzed, engulfed and displayed on thee surface of antigen presenting cells within the circulatory system, triggering the active immune response.  If you are trying to make a point about innate immunity you need to spell it out.


No need to spell it out.  You nor I have said anything new regarding respiratory diseases.  SARS-1 nor MERS required vax mandates or NPI's.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Adding foreign shit to your blood cells is weird science where I come from Bruddah.


Pathogenic Priming?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Err Hawaii is over 60% unless they are putting out false press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii hits 60% mark for vaccinations - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
> 
> 
> Sixty percent of Hawaii residents are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19 — three weeks after the state was expected to hit that benchmark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiitribune-herald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they are having a record number of cases for them.  It's fair to say relative to other states it's not a record.  Your point is a fair one.  But they, despite the restrictions, have hit records for them.  Masks seem to be working there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Hawaii COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree Hawaii is an outlier.  That's bad news for Australia/New Zealand...they are looking at fortressing for at least another year if they want to avoid the same effect as Hawaii.  I agree also it's not at all indicative of what will happen in other states, with the big variable being we don't know how the delta will evolve.  But I do think the politics are indictive of what will happen, particularly if Newsom wins the recall.


Australian Mikayla Novak writes:

The great sense of lament expressed in the letter is, sadly, not inaccurate at all. One can easily catalogue the list of bizarre and illiberal exhortations to obey “rules” (the term set in quotation marks, given the lack of parliamentary assent for them) that stifle civil liberties, economic freedoms, social activities, and forms of political expression. Examples not only include the political castigation of viewing sunsets outdoors, but advising crowds to scurry away from footballs kicked during a match, advising business owners to shoo customers out of their stores if caught “browsing,” encouraging people to use official websites and hotlines to report noncompliant members of the public, etc. There are now regular spectacles of police barricading major roads into capital cities to prevent rumoured protests (we may refer to this tactic as the Police Anti-Anti-Lockdown Protest). All laughable, if not so seriously damaging to life, property, liberty, and happiness. In my jurisdiction (Australian Capital Territory) the local government has simultaneously imposed outdoor mask mandates, QR check-in codes at all retail premises, physical distancing provisions, home “lockdown” (essentially, a bio-political disciplinary measure that would make Foucault gasp), one hour of outdoor exercise daily, discouragement of travel more than five kilometres from one’s home, inability to travel interjurisdictionally, and so on. My university recently made an urgent call-out for staff-volunteers to help feed students locked up in their college residences.

As individual liberties and potentials for human association diminish substantially under the weight of measures in response to a handful of Covid “cases,” Australia’s political executives are squabbling over the meaning of over-simplistic epidemiological models. In this respect, would a hypothetical 70-80 per cent population-wide vaccination rate (for persons aged 16 years and over) really mean the end of lockdowns, constant surveillance, etc. etc.? Politicians in some jurisdictions say “yes,” others “no,” most “maybe, who knows?” This debate is being prosecuted against the background of a 24-25 per cent population-wide vaccination rate as of today (the potential implications of this debate for continuation of restrictive measures into the forseeable future are clear). All up, the situation is dire and entirely politically-induced. (One bright spot: Australia’s libertarian political party – the Liberal Democrats – is enjoying a surge in membership and public interest on account of their no-lockdown policies.)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Research Paper 

A country level analysis measuring the impact of government actions, country preparedness and socioeconomic factors on COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes 

Rabail Chaudhrya , George Dranitsarisb , Talha Mubashirc , Justyna Bartoszkoa , Sheila Riazia, * a Department of Anesthesiology and Pain Medicine, University of Toronto, University Health Network, 323-200 Elizabeth Street, Toronto, ON M5G 2C4, Canada b Department of Hematology, School of Medicine, University of Ioannina, Ioannina 451 10 Greece c Department of Anesthesiology, McGovern Medical School, University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston (UT Health), 7000 Fannin St, Houston, TX 77030, United States

When COVID-19 mortality was assessed, variables significantly associated with an increased death rate per million were population prevalence of obesity and per capita GDP (Table 4). In contrast, variables that was negatively associated with increased COVID-19 mortality were reduced income dispersion within the nation, smoking prevalence, and the number of nurses per million population (Table 4). Indeed, more nurses within a given health care system was associated with reduced mortality (Fig. 1). Mortality rates were also higher in those counties with an older population upon univariate analysis, but age as a factor was not retained in multivariable analysis (Fig. 2). Lastly, government actions such as border closures, full lockdowns, and a high rate of COVID-19 testing were not associated with statistically significant reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err Hawaii is over 60% unless they are putting out false press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii hits 60% mark for vaccinations - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
> 
> 
> Sixty percent of Hawaii residents are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19 — three weeks after the state was expected to hit that benchmark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiitribune-herald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they are having a record number of cases for them.  It's fair to say relative to other states it's not a record.  Your point is a fair one.  But they, despite the restrictions, have hit records for them.  Masks seem to be working there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Hawaii COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree Hawaii is an outlier.  That's bad news for Australia/New Zealand...they are looking at fortressing for at least another year if they want to avoid the same effect as Hawaii.  I agree also it's not at all indicative of what will happen in other states, with the big variable being we don't know how the delta will evolve.  But I do think the politics are indictive of what will happen, particularly if Newsom wins the recall.


55% of total pop.  60% of adults.  Not misreporting numbers, just choosing the more favorable one to announce,  

Still, nowhere near the 85% of adults you see in highly vaccinated areas.

OZ/NZ does have a problem if they can’t get vax rates up.  Same as any high NPI, low vax jurisdiction.

High vax areas like SF or VT are quite different.  I doubt any high vax area will need to go beyond masks and vaccine passports.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> 55% of total pop.  60% of adults.  Not misreporting numbers, just choosing the more favorable one to announce,
> 
> Still, nowhere near the 85% of adults you see in highly vaccinated areas.
> 
> OZ/NZ does have a problem if they can’t get vax rates up.  Same as any high NPI, low vax jurisdiction.
> 
> High vax areas like SF or VT are quite different.  I doubt any high vax area will need to go beyond masks and vaccine passports.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 55% of total pop.  60% of adults.  Not misreporting numbers, just choosing the more favorable one to announce,
> 
> Still, nowhere near the 85% of adults you see in highly vaccinated areas.
> 
> OZ/NZ does have a problem if they can’t get vax rates up.  Same as any high NPI, low vax jurisdiction.
> 
> High vax areas like SF or VT are quite different.  I doubt any high vax area will need to go beyond masks and vaccine passports.


Hey we agree on stuff for a change!

My 2 caveats...that was 60% back in July.  And there is a difference between "need" and actually doing it.  LA is already at masks at crowded events and vaccine passports....Hawaii at reduced capacity for indoor dining and nearing closing the beaches...when the numbers go up the authorities feel to do something (even if it's ineffective like cloth masks)....and these areas are already there despite it being summer so there's not much more room for them to do stuff before they begin to get heavy handed. The red areas have more risk tolerance against doing stuff than the blue areas, so even if they don't "need" to, the blue areas might still feel compelled to actual do something, particularly if Newsom wins the recall.  The recall will essentially serve as a referendum on the tolerance of the public for restrictions in blue areas.  The other variable we don't know is how bad does it get despite vaccination (we only have the UK, Iceland and Israel to really guide us here)


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> It just seems an even sillier argument and unwarranted dichotomy, given that the same cellular processes that are being stimulated in both cases by the same protein BUT one enters the blood stream directly while natural infection does not.


A decline in circulating anti-spike antibodies over time is to be expected, unless the individuals are getting exposed repeatedly to SARS-CoV2 or boosters.   

Someone with good immunity should be able to rapidly fill an order for new little green anti-spike army men because you've got the mold in stock (innate immunity), rather than needing to put in a special order and potentially deal with supply line slowdowns, all while trying to prevent the virus from gaining a strong foothold.  The data here show the numbers of circulating anti-spike army men ready to do battle in different people.  Lots of variability, no surprise. The immune cells remember how to make more quickly if needed, using the molds they have in stock. A question is how quickly can an individual ramp up their production relative to an invading virus.  ..  and whether the green anti-spike army men should be shaped a bit differently to best attack virus spike 2.0.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hey we agree on stuff for a change!
> 
> My 2 caveats...that was 60% back in July.  And there is a difference between "need" and actually doing it.  LA is already at masks at crowded events and vaccine passports....Hawaii at reduced capacity for indoor dining and nearing closing the beaches...when the numbers go up the authorities feel to do something (even if it's ineffective like cloth masks)....and these areas are already there despite it being summer so there's not much more room for them to do stuff before they begin to get heavy handed. The red areas have more risk tolerance against doing stuff than the blue areas, so even if they don't "need" to, the blue areas might still feel compelled to actual do something, particularly if Newsom wins the recall.  The recall will essentially serve as a referendum on the tolerance of the public for restrictions in blue areas.  The other variable we don't know is how bad does it get despite vaccination (we only have the UK, Iceland and Israel to really guide us here)


LA's rules sound ok.  Masks and vaccines have solid  evidence behind them.   Let me know when a high vax city (above 80% for over 12) goes beyond vaccine passports.

Hawaii sounds like they want to blame the tourists for community spread.  Closing beaches does a good job of driving away tourists, but it won't solve their covid problem.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> LA's rules sound ok.  Masks and vaccines have solid  evidence behind them.   Let me know when a high vax city (above 80% for over 12) goes beyond vaccine passports.
> 
> Hawaii sounds like they want to blame the tourists for community spread.  Closing beaches does a good job of driving away tourists, but it won't solve their covid problem.


The beach closures are actually a locals problem.  Locals in Hawaii tend to have large gatherings at the beaches since houses tend to be small and there is a water culture.  

Only certain masks have solid evidence behind them.  Cloth masks from the U of Waterloo only reduce particles by 10%.  Surgicals not much better.  Security theatre.  Vaccine passports the question is how many breakthroughs are we getting and how contagious on them (which as you know has robust debate around them).  If the answer is many and not as much as the unvaxxed but still substantial, they are also security theater)  Los Angeles is engaging in security theater because they are under pressure to do something and that's sort of all they can do right now (at least until the recall election).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Yes.  I’ve also had to try to collect rent during covid.


I hope you had better luck then I did.  I was able to recover a lot through the rental assistance program.  However, I would have much rather had the option to evict.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> A decline in circulating anti-spike antibodies over time is to be expected, unless the individuals are getting exposed repeatedly to SARS-CoV2 or boosters.
> 
> Someone with good immunity should be able to rapidly fill an order for new little green anti-spike army men because you've got the mold in stock (innate immunity), rather than needing to put in a special order and potentially deal with supply line slowdowns, all while trying to prevent the virus from gaining a strong foothold.  The data here show the numbers of circulating anti-spike army men ready to do battle in different people.  Lots of variability, no surprise. The immune cells remember how to make more quickly if needed, using the molds they have in stock. A question is how quickly can an individual ramp up their production relative to an invading virus.  ..  and whether the green anti-spike army men should be shaped a bit differently to best attack virus spike 2.0.


Plenty of data and history to support green army men.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The beach closures are actually a locals problem.  Locals in Hawaii tend to have large gatherings at the beaches since houses tend to be small and there is a water culture.
> 
> Only certain masks have solid evidence behind them.  Cloth masks from the U of Waterloo only reduce particles by 10%.  Surgicals not much better.  Security theatre.  Vaccine passports the question is how many breakthroughs are we getting and how contagious on them (which as you know has robust debate around them).  If the answer is many and not as much as the unvaxxed but still substantial, they are also security theater)  Los Angeles is engaging in security theater because they are under pressure to do something and that's sort of all they can do right now (at least until the recall election).


Particle reduction?  You’re still thinking of masks as filters.  Ask whether the mask redirects air flow away from the receiving person.  It’s a better question.

Then, if you are indoors, ask what the ventillation system does to trap or expel the virus before it builds up on the room.  

I agree that, if you are in a poorly ventilated room with lots of people, you need an N95.  But you also need to ask yourself why you are in that room at all.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Particle reduction?  You’re still thinking of masks as filters.  Ask whether the mask redirects air flow away from the receiving person.  It’s a better question.
> 
> Then, if you are indoors, ask what the ventillation system does to trap or expel the virus before it builds up on the room.
> 
> I agree that, if you are in a poorly ventilated room with lots of people, you need an N95.  But you also need to ask yourself why you are in that room at all.


The waterloo study answered that question as well.  Through the material, the cloth masks had only a 50% reduction.  If someone just sneezed behind you on a bus, airplane or classroom, that cloth mask isn't doing much (surgical better).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Particle reduction?  You’re still thinking of masks as filters.  Ask whether the mask redirects air flow away from the receiving person.  It’s a better question.
> 
> Then, if you are indoors, ask what the ventillation system does to trap or expel the virus before it builds up on the room.
> 
> I agree that, if you are in a poorly ventilated room with lots of people, you need an N95.  But you also need to ask yourself why you are in that room at all.


p.s. in more proof that it was never going to end with just masking (and this one I'm mad about)...testing is required 48 hours prior to games in LA County for both vaxxed and unvaxxed participants in the high contact sports, including soccer....it was never going to end with just masks.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> p.s. in more proof that it was never going to end with just masking (and this one I'm mad about)...testing is required 48 hours prior to games in LA County for both vaxxed and unvaxxed participants in the high contact sports, including soccer....it was never going to end with just masks.


and the shittiest thing of all is they aren't doing this for waiters, they aren't doing this for bus drivers, they aren't doing this for office workers, they aren't doing it for doctors, all of whom are in higher risk environments than outdoor sports.  Once again, kids are getting shafted.


----------



## Grace T.

Well, believe it or not I wasn't really enthusiastic about the Newsom recall.  Yeah, I wanted the election to happen as a check on his actions, but removing him was a different story.  My ballot has been sitting there.  I'm not really enthusiastic about any of the R candidates (at first I was onboard with Jenner til she went full Trumpian and then her campaign exploded).  I think Meet Kevin is a little crazy, and dangerous too with his rule by decree.  I've never been 100% on board with the progressive reforms of the early 20th century (such as direct initiatives and voting on judges) and I had reservations about replacing the governor with less than a majority vote for the replacement.  But what LA County did today convinces me when need a governor who will revoke the emergency orders that permit counties like Los Angeles to do what they just did.  At a minimum, we need to send a signal regarding government overreach.  Ballot in the mail.  My younger brother and his wife just sent theirs in too.  We even convinced my folks (a NeverTrump R and a moderate D) to send their ballots in today with the replacement blank.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The waterloo study answered that question as well.  Through the material, the cloth masks had only a 50% reduction.  If someone just sneezed behind you on a bus, airplane or classroom, that cloth mask isn't doing much (surgical better).


You misread the study.

All masks worked to redirect the plume.  Some worked as filters, some did not.

From the study:

"Measurements demonstrate that all tested masks provide protection in the immediate vicinity of the host primarily through the redirection and reduction of expiratory momentum. However, leakages are observed to result in notable decreases in mask efficiency relative to the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material, even in the case of high-efficiency masks, such as the R95 or KN95. Tests conducted in the far field (2 m distance from the subject) capture significant aerosol build-up in the indoor space over a long duration (10 h). "









						Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
					

The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...



					aip.scitation.org
				




Interestingly, the study also indicates that good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.

"The results also suggest that, while higher ventilation capacities are required to fully mitigate aerosol build-up, even relatively low air-change rates (2 h−1) lead to lower aerosol build-up compared to the best performing mask in an unventilated space."


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You misread the study.
> 
> All masks worked to redirect the plume.  Some worked as filters, some did not.
> 
> From the study:
> 
> "Measurements demonstrate that all tested masks provide protection in the immediate vicinity of the host primarily through the redirection and reduction of expiratory momentum. However, leakages are observed to result in notable decreases in mask efficiency relative to the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material, even in the case of high-efficiency masks, such as the R95 or KN95. Tests conducted in the far field (2 m distance from the subject) capture significant aerosol build-up in the indoor space over a long duration (10 h). "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
> 
> 
> The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...
> 
> 
> 
> aip.scitation.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the study also indicates that good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.
> 
> "The results also suggest that, while higher ventilation capacities are required to fully mitigate aerosol build-up, even relatively low air-change rates (2 h−1) lead to lower aerosol build-up compared to the best performing mask in an unventilated space."


Different section.  I'm not going to hunt for it now (too busy given what LA County just did) but there is a section in there that speaks directly to cloth masks and a 50% reduction through the material.

I agree the study says good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.  Good ventilation may be a more effective choice than even cloth masks from the study.  The problem with ventilation, though, is it's baked into some structures (particularly Costco's or crowded supermarkets on sunday afternoon) and expensive to improve without improving the entire building circulatory system.  It is, however, in SoCal more evidence that school outside would be better than masks indoors, particularly given the age of some of the classrooms (even those with ventilation upgrades)


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Different section.  I'm not going to hunt for it now (too busy given what LA County just did) but there is a section in there that speaks directly to cloth masks and a 50% reduction through the material.
> 
> I agree the study says good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.  Good ventilation may be a more effective choice than even cloth masks from the study.  The problem with ventilation, though, is it's baked into some structures (particularly Costco's or crowded supermarkets on sunday afternoon) and expensive to improve without improving the entire building circulatory system.  It is, however, in SoCal more evidence that school outside would be better than masks indoors, particularly given the age of some of the classrooms (even those with ventilation upgrades)


Good luck getting any progress on the repeated test requirement for sports.  Reminds me of the previous discussion on why did we close schools and open the restaurants.  Kids can’t defend themselves politically, so they get the worst of it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Good luck getting any progress on the repeated test requirement for sports.  Reminds me of the previous discussion on why did we close schools and open the restaurants.  Kids can’t defend themselves politically, so they get the worst of it.


… is from page 431 of Tom Palmer’s 1997 essay “The Literature of Liberty” as this essay is reprinted in Tom’s superb 2009 book, _Realizing Freedom_:



> One_ way of understanding the history of modern civilization is as a constant struggle between liberty and power._


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You misread the study.
> 
> All masks worked to redirect the plume.  Some worked as filters, some did not.
> 
> From the study:
> 
> "Measurements demonstrate that all tested masks provide protection in the immediate vicinity of the host primarily through the redirection and reduction of expiratory momentum. However, leakages are observed to result in notable decreases in mask efficiency relative to the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material, even in the case of high-efficiency masks, such as the R95 or KN95. Tests conducted in the far field (2 m distance from the subject) capture significant aerosol build-up in the indoor space over a long duration (10 h). "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
> 
> 
> The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...
> 
> 
> 
> aip.scitation.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the study also indicates that good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.
> 
> "The results also suggest that, while higher ventilation capacities are required to fully mitigate aerosol build-up, even relatively low air-change rates (2 h−1) lead to lower aerosol build-up compared to the best performing mask in an unventilated space."


“Was Germany’s Corona Lockdown Necessary?” by Christof Kuhbandner, Stefan Homburg, Harald Walach, Stefan Hockertz. Advance: Sage Preprint, June 23, 2020


“Official data from Germany’s RKI agency suggest strongly that the spread of the coronavirus in Germany receded autonomously, before any interventions became effective. Several reasons for such an autonomous decline have been suggested. One is that differences in host susceptibility and behavior can result in herd immunity at a relatively low prevalence level. Accounting for individual variation in susceptibility or exposure to the coronavirus yields a maximum of 17% to 20% of the population that needs to be infected to reach herd immunity, an estimate that is empirically supported by the cohort of the Diamond Princess cruise ship. Another reason is that seasonality may also play an important role in dissipation.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Particle reduction?  You’re still thinking of masks as filters.  Ask whether the mask redirects air flow away from the receiving person.  It’s a better question.
> 
> Then, if you are indoors, ask what the ventillation system does to trap or expel the virus before it builds up on the room.
> 
> I agree that, if you are in a poorly ventilated room with lots of people, you need an N95.  But you also need to ask yourself why you are in that room at all.


“Comment on Flaxman et al. (2020): The illusory effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions on COVID-19 in Europe” by Stefan Homburg and Christof Kuhbandner. June 17, 2020. Advance, Sage Pre-Print.

“In a recent article, Flaxman et al. allege that non-pharmaceutical interventions imposed by 11 European countries saved millions of lives. We show that their methods involve circular reasoning. The purported effects are pure artefacts, which contradict the data. Moreover, we demonstrate that the United Kingdom’s lockdown was both superfluous and ineffective.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> LA's rules sound ok.  Masks and vaccines have solid  evidence behind them.   Let me know when a high vax city (above 80% for over 12) goes beyond vaccine passports.
> 
> Hawaii sounds like they want to blame the tourists for community spread.  Closing beaches does a good job of driving away tourists, but it won't solve their covid problem.


Professor Ben Israel’s Analysis of virus transmission. April 16, 2020

“Some may claim that the decline in the number of additional patients every day is a result of the tight lockdown imposed by the government and health authorities. Examining the data of different countries around the world casts a heavy question mark on the above statement. It turns out that a similar pattern – rapid increase in infections that reaches a peak in the sixth week and declines from the eighth week – is common to all countries in which the disease was discovered, regardless of their response policies: some imposed a severe and immediate lockdown that included not only ‘social distancing’ and banning crowding, but also shutout of economy (like Israel); some ‘ignored’ the infection and continued almost a normal life (such as Taiwan, Korea or Sweden), and some initially adopted a lenient policy but soon reversed to a complete lockdown (such as Italy or the State of New York). Nonetheless, the data shows similar time constants amongst all these countries in regard to the initial rapid growth and the decline of the disease.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You misread the study.
> 
> All masks worked to redirect the plume.  Some worked as filters, some did not.
> 
> From the study:
> 
> "Measurements demonstrate that all tested masks provide protection in the immediate vicinity of the host primarily through the redirection and reduction of expiratory momentum. However, leakages are observed to result in notable decreases in mask efficiency relative to the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material, even in the case of high-efficiency masks, such as the R95 or KN95. Tests conducted in the far field (2 m distance from the subject) capture significant aerosol build-up in the indoor space over a long duration (10 h). "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
> 
> 
> The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...
> 
> 
> 
> aip.scitation.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the study also indicates that good ventilation may be a more effective choice than upgrading everyone's mask.
> 
> "The results also suggest that, while higher ventilation capacities are required to fully mitigate aerosol build-up, even relatively low air-change rates (2 h−1) lead to lower aerosol build-up compared to the best performing mask in an unventilated space."


“Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions against COVID-19 in Europe: a quasi-experimental study”

“The current epidemic of COVID-19 is unparalleled in recent history as are the social distancing interventions that have led to a significant halt on the economic and social life of so many countries. However, there is very little empirical evidence about which social distancing measures have the most impact… From both sets of modelling, we found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some non-essential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders and closure of all non-businesses was not associated with any independent additional impact.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Particle reduction?  You’re still thinking of masks as filters.  Ask whether the mask redirects air flow away from the receiving person.  It’s a better question.
> 
> Then, if you are indoors, ask what the ventillation system does to trap or expel the virus before it builds up on the room.
> 
> I agree that, if you are in a poorly ventilated room with lots of people, you need an N95.  But you also need to ask yourself why you are in that room at all.


EYE ON THE NEWS Do Masks Work? A review of the evidence Jeffrey H. Anderson August 11, 2021

“Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS!” So tweeted then–surgeon general Jerome Adams on February 29, 2020, adding, “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus.” Two days later, Adams said, “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.” Less than a week earlier, on February 25, public-health authorities in the United Kingdom had published guidance that masks were unnecessary even for those providing community or residential care: “During normal day-to-day activities facemasks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses, such as COVID-19 and do not need to be worn by staff.” About a month later, on March 30, World Health Organization (WHO) Health Emergencies Program executive director Mike Ryan said that “there is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any particular benefit.” He added, “In fact there’s some evidence to suggest the opposite” because of the possibility of not “wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly” and of “taking it off and all the other risks that are otherwise associated with that.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It’s
> 
> That article is just not very well thought out.  It jumps to dramatic contrarian positions very quickly, without bothering to scope out the problem space.
> 
> For example, it presents impressive sounding numbers about asymptomatic infections of vaccinated people.  Why do we care about asymptomatic infections?  She doesn’t say.  What kind of spread is occurring from symptomatic cases?  She does a half hearted back of the envelope swag to assert that it must be large.
> 
> Then more of the same.  She repeated gives half an argument, but presents it as a definitive conclusion.
> 
> Reads like this forum.


 “Lockdowns and Closures vs COVID – 19: COVID Wins” by Surjit S Bhalla, executive director for India of the International Monetary Fund.

“For the first time in human history, lockdowns were used as a strategy to counter the virus. While conventional wisdom, to date, has been that lockdowns were successful (ranging from mild to spectacular) we find not one piece of evidence supporting this claim.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> LA's rules sound ok.  Masks and vaccines have solid  evidence behind them.   Let me know when a high vax city (above 80% for over 12) goes beyond vaccine passports.
> 
> Hawaii sounds like they want to blame the tourists for community spread.  Closing beaches does a good job of driving away tourists, but it won't solve their covid problem.


Effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions on COVID-19: A Tale of Three Models

*Abstract*

*Objective* To compare the inference regarding the effectiveness of the various non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) for COVID-19 obtained from different SIR models.

*Study design and setting* We explored two models developed by Imperial College that considered only NPIs without accounting for mobility (model 1) or only mobility (model 2), and a model accounting for the combination of mobility and NPIs (model 3). Imperial College applied models 1 and 2 to 11 European countries and to the USA, respectively. We applied these models to 14 European countries (original 11 plus another 3), over two different time horizons.


*Results* While model 1 found that lockdown was the most effective measure in the original 11 countries, model 2 showed that lockdown had little or no benefit as it was typically introduced at a point when the time-varying reproductive number was already very low. Model 3 found that the simple banning of public events was beneficial, while lockdown had no consistent impact. Based on Bayesian metrics, model 2 was better supported by the data than either model 1 or model 3 for both time horizons.

*Conclusions* Inferences on effects of NPIs are non-robust and highly sensitive to model specification. Claimed benefits of lockdown appear grossly exaggerated.


Cherry Picking season was over in May!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The waterloo study answered that question as well.  Through the material, the cloth masks had only a 50% reduction.  If someone just sneezed behind you on a bus, airplane or classroom, that cloth mask isn't doing much (surgical better).


You mean this:

"more than 50% of aerosols (polydisperse, 1 μm mean diameter) can pass through the material of commercially available cloth and surgical masks in ideal conditions"

That is still just talking about filtration efficiency, not breath redirection.  You have to include both.   The same paper still claims that overall transmission reduction is 70-80%.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *Locals in Hawaii tend to have large gatherings at the beaches since houses tend to be small and there is a water culture. *


*Super Spreaders Hawaiian Style....lol*  All kidding aside.  The locals my bro knows hunt for wild Boar 4 days a week and because house is small and they need to earn a living, they share the pig with a hotel and then charge the tourist $49.95 each ((kids under 3 eat free)) to experience a real luau. My wife's cousins go out and sell the tickets for the luau and also take a part in the dances and one of them sings Don Ho music.  Super good looking guys and look the part. Hotel makes some of the profits as well.  My wife's cousins grew up in East LA and also take tourist on exclusive sight seeing tours and have a blast.  PM me if any of you need help to explore the finer things in back country.  Super cool guys and we all get  a good laugh when we catch up.  They do "lie" a little and tell a story of how their true blooded locals. It's just part of the tour and nothing else. They actually look more local then the real locals, moo


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would the existence of a booster shot make lockdowns more likely?
> 
> I don’t think you’ll see many more business closures.   High vax areas aren’t getting large enough spikes to provoke lockdown discussions.  Low vax areas don’t have political support for business closures.
> 
> Short of a truly vaccine resistant variant, i would bet businesses stay open.


“Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19” by Eran Bendavid, Christopher Oh, Jay Bhattacharya, John P.A. Ioannidis. European Journal of Clinical Investigation, January 5, 2021.

“Implementing any NPIs was associated with significant reductions in case growth in 9 out of 10 study countries, including South Korea and Sweden that implemented only lrNPIs (Spain had a non‐significant effect). After subtracting the epidemic and lrNPI effects, we find no clear, significant beneficial effect of mrNPIs on case growth in any country. In France, e.g., the effect of mrNPIs was +7% (95CI ‐5%‐19%) when compared with Sweden, and +13% (‐12%‐38%) when compared with South Korea (positive means pro‐contagion). The 95% confidence intervals excluded 30% declines in all 16 comparisons and 15% declines in 11/16 comparisons.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You mean this:
> 
> "more than 50% of aerosols (polydisperse, 1 μm mean diameter) can pass through the material of commercially available cloth and surgical masks in ideal conditions"
> 
> That is still just talking about filtration efficiency, not breath redirection.  You have to include both.   The same paper still claims that overall transmission reduction is 70-80%.


“Lockdown Effects on Sars-CoV-2 Transmission – The evidence from Northern Jutland”

The exact impact of lockdowns and other NPIs on Sars-CoV-2 transmission remain a matter of debate as early models assumed 100% susceptible homogenously transmitting populations, an assumption known to overestimate counterfactual transmission, and since most real epidemiological data are subject to massive confounding variables. Here, we analyse the unique case-controlled epidemiological dataset arising from the selective lockdown of parts of Northern Denmark, but not others, as a consequence of the spread of mink-related mutations in November 2020. Our analysis shows that while infection levels decreased, they did so before lockdown was effective, and infection numbers also decreased in neighbour municipalities without mandates. Direct spill-over to neighbour municipalities or the simultaneous mass testing do not explain this. Instead, control of infection pockets possibly together with voluntary social behaviour was apparently effective before the mandate, explaining why the infection decline occurred before and in both the mandated and non-mandated areas. The data suggest that efficient infection surveillance and voluntary compliance make full lockdowns unnecessary at least in some circumstances.”


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> “Lockdown Effects on Sars-CoV-2 Transmission – The evidence from Northern Jutland”
> 
> The exact impact of lockdowns and other NPIs on Sars-CoV-2 transmission remain a matter of debate as early models assumed 100% susceptible homogenously transmitting populations, an assumption known to overestimate counterfactual transmission, and since most real epidemiological data are subject to massive confounding variables. Here, we analyse the unique case-controlled epidemiological dataset arising from the selective lockdown of parts of Northern Denmark, but not others, as a consequence of the spread of mink-related mutations in November 2020. Our analysis shows that while infection levels decreased, they did so before lockdown was effective, and infection numbers also decreased in neighbour municipalities without mandates. Direct spill-over to neighbour municipalities or the simultaneous mass testing do not explain this. Instead, control of infection pockets possibly together with voluntary social behaviour was apparently effective before the mandate, explaining why the infection decline occurred before and in both the mandated and non-mandated areas. The data suggest that efficient infection surveillance and voluntary compliance make full lockdowns unnecessary at least in some circumstances.”


In other words the freak out is more important than the lockdown.  I seem to recall saying that.


----------



## crush

I WAS PEER PRESSURED INTO GETTING THE COVID JAB, NOW MY SON & I ARE BOTH IN GRAVE DANGER - M. MARIA
					

I WAS PEER PRESSURED INTO GETTING THE COVID JAB, NOW MY SON AND I ARE BOTH IN GRAVE DANGER [2021-08-05] - MIMIS MARIA (VIDEO)  SERGEANT MAJOR'S TRUTHER INFO        [MeWe] https://mewe.com/join/sergeantmajorstrutherinfo        [Spreely] https://w…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*When you let go of fear*
*   the truth will appear*
*    so simple and clear*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> In other words the freak out is more important than the lockdown.  I seem to recall saying that.


On several occasions to et al-spola


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> All masks worked to redirect the plume.  Some worked as filters, some did not.


So you're OK if your speaking to someone face to face but if there is anyone next to them they're screwed?  IDK, I didn't read the study.  Where does the redirected plume go?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So you're OK if your speaking to someone face to face but if there is anyone next to them they're screwed?  IDK, I didn't read the study.  Where does the redirected plume go?


Your breath is warm.  Within a few seconds, convection takes it up.  From there, it mixes with the rest of the room.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So you're OK if your speaking to someone face to face but if there is anyone next to them they're screwed?  IDK, I didn't read the study.  Where does the redirected plume go?


Well if you are speaking to them face to face 50% of the material is still going through.  That plume is still being dispersed but instead of shooting straight is moving in a cloud around the front and sides of the mask.   So, if someone is standing in front of you talking and sneezes, it may reduce the viral load you directly inhale but both you and the person standing next to you chatting is still getting plenty of virus, and with the Delta more than likely enough to make them sick.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

You guys having a little fun with D4?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

_Wall Street Journal_ columnist Jason Riley decries the confusion and excessive risk aversion that mars school openings across America. Two slices:

The officials in charge of running the nation’s public schools had all summer—and $122 billion in Covid relief funds from Congress—to plan for the first day of school, so naturally chaos has ensued as students begin heading back to the classroom.
…..
The Rand Corp. has released the results of a nationwide parent survey on school hesitancy taken in July. Although Delta was already spreading by then, 89% of parents, including more than 80% of typically more hesitant black and Hispanic respondents, said they would opt for in-person learning for their children this year. Parents apparently understand the health risks, and they’re weighing them against the harm of another year of horribly substandard instruction via Zoom.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Your breath is warm.  Within a few seconds, convection takes it up.  From there, it mixes with the rest of the room.


Bryan Caplan masterfully unmasks shoddy reasoning about masking. A slice:

Personally, I only find masks marginally uncomfortable. But I hate wearing them, and I dislike being around people who wear them. Why? Because a big part of being human is showing other people our faces – and seeing their faces in return. Smiling at a stranger. Seeing your child laugh. Pretending to be angry. Seeing another person’s puzzlement. Masks take most of those experiences away. At the same time, they moderately reduce audibility. Which further dehumanizes us. How many times during Covid have you struggled to understand another person? To be heard? Indeed, how many times have you simply abandoned a conversation because of masks? I say the dehumanization is at least five times as bad as the mere discomfort. And if you reply, “Want to see other people’s faces and hear other people’s voices? Just Zoom!,” I will shake my head in sorrow that you’re dehumanized enough to say such a thing.

Am I just being a big baby about this? I think not.  Suppose humanity could eliminate all disease by wearing bags over our heads forever. Would you be willing to go through life not seeing the faces of your children? Would you want your child to go through life not seeing the faces of their friends? Well, during Covid we’ve moved at least 25% in that dystopian direction. *The word “hellscape” is not out of place. I’ve never been a fan of the veiling of women, but I had to live through Covid to realize how horribly dehumanizing the custom really is.*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well if you are speaking to them face to face 50% of the material is still going through.  That plume is still being dispersed but instead of shooting straight is moving in a cloud around the front and sides of the mask.   So, if someone is standing in front of you talking and sneezes, it may reduce the viral load you directly inhale but both you and the person standing next to you chatting is still getting plenty of virus, and with the Delta more than likely enough to make them sick.


50% of the virus gets through a cloth mask, but it’s hanging out within a few inches of your face.  Not yet a risk to anyone unless you like to be 18 inches away from your conversational companions.  If that’s the case, back off a little.

Sneezing is a separate question, but it’s a red herring in this context.  Most covid transmission is believed to be related to normal speech and breathing.   But, if you’re worried about your sneezes, a mask also reduces the distance you can sneeze.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> 50% of the virus gets through a cloth mask, but it’s hanging out within a few inches of your face.  Not yet a risk to anyone unless you like to be 18 inches away from your conversational companions.  If that’s the case, back off a little.
> 
> Sneezing is a separate question, but it’s a red herring in this context.  Most covid transmission is believed to be related to normal speech and breathing.   But, if you’re worried about your sneezes, a mask also reduces the distance you can sneeze.


So sad that you've been reduced to the Science of sneezing.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> 50% of the virus gets through a cloth mask, but it’s hanging out within a few inches of your face.  Not yet a risk to anyone unless you like to be 18 inches away from your conversational companions.  If that’s the case, back off a little.
> 
> Sneezing is a separate question, but it’s a red herring in this context.  Most covid transmission is believed to be related to normal speech and breathing.   But, if you’re worried about your sneezes, a mask also reduces the distance you can sneeze.


What's the difference between 50% of the virus hanging out within inches of your face and having 100% of the virus hanging out within inches of your face if your not having close conversation?  Are you saying that the cloth mask keeps keeps the virus closer to your face?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> What's the difference between 50% of the virus hanging out within inches of your face and having 100% of the virus hanging out within inches of your face if your not having close conversation?  *Are you saying that the cloth mask keeps keeps the virus closer to your face?*


Yes.  The cloth mask slows your exhaled breath so it stays close to your face until convection takes it up toward the ceiling/sky.

With no mask, your breath travels several feet.  Far enough to reach the person next to you and get inhaled into their lungs.

That’s the difference.  How far does the virus travel before it can rise higher than head height?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Yes.  The cloth mask slows your exhaled breath so it stays close to your face until convection takes it up toward the ceiling/sky.
> 
> With no mask, your breath travels several feet.  Far enough to reach the person next to you and get inhaled into their lungs.
> 
> That’s the difference.  How far does the virus travel before it can rise higher than head height?


So if it slows your exhaling breath (this leaving more Carbon Dioxide close to your face) it must also slow your inhale.  Therefore drawing less oxygen and more carbon dioxide (since its somewhat “trapped” between your mouth and the mask) with every breath.

I’m sure that oxygen deprivation (however slight it may be) is great for kids in a learning environment much less an athletic one.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> So if it slows your exhaling breath (this leaving more Carbon Dioxide close to your face) it must also slow your inhale.  Therefore drawing less oxygen and more carbon dioxide (since its somewhat “trapped” between your mouth and the mask) with every breath.
> 
> I’m sure that oxygen deprivation (however slight it may be) is great for kids in a learning environment much less an athletic one.


There was a paper trying to measure that, but it has been withdrawn.

You can do a swag.  A normal resting breath is about 0.5 liters.  If your mask traps 100ml of air, then you’re only getting 80% new air.  

The rebreathing effect is why I went with lightweight cloth instead of N95.  The cloth mask fits tight across my face and doesn’t feel stuffy because it traps a lot less air.

I mostly just avoid any situation where an N95 would be appropriate.  If I want to talk to someone, we meet outside.


----------



## watfly

Kicker4Life said:


> So if it slows your exhaling breath (this leaving more Carbon Dioxide close to your face) it must also slow your inhale.  Therefore drawing less oxygen and more carbon dioxide (since its somewhat “trapped” between your mouth and the mask) with every breath.
> 
> I’m sure that oxygen deprivation (however slight it may be) is great for kids in a learning environment much less an athletic one.


Wouldn't snorkels work much better?  It would send the warm breath up and out, (aka redirect the plume) without blocking the inhalation of oxygen.  It would also solve LA County's issue with not being able to mask kids for swimming and water polo.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Wouldn't snorkels work much better?  It would send the warm breath up and out, (aka redirect the plume) without blocking the inhalation of oxygen.  It would also solve LA County's issue with not being able to mask kids for swimming and water polo.


Snorkels would do exactly the same thing.  

There is a slight problem in that snorkels have a significant volume.  You’d find it stuffy after a while.

Depending on your own personal sense of style, you might have other objections.  Or not.  Who am I to judge?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Krispy Kreme is upping the doughnut ante in its COVID-19 vaccine push, doubling the number of free sweet treats that vaccinated customers can receive if they jabbed.  Vaccinated patrons can get an *original* glazed, along with a *heart-shaped *doughnut, as part of the company's *"Show Your Heart,"* which runs from Monday to Sept. 5.


----------



## Torros

Grace T. said:


> You mischaracterized my statement, for which I could have responded you are either a fool or a liar.  Given your track record, I picked fool.


He is both.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> There was a paper trying to measure that, but it has been withdrawn.
> 
> You can do a swag.  A normal resting breath is about 0.5 liters.  If your mask traps 100ml of air, then you’re only getting 80% new air.
> 
> The rebreathing effect is why I went with lightweight cloth instead of N95.  The cloth mask fits tight across my face and doesn’t feel stuffy because it traps a lot less air.
> 
> I mostly just avoid any situation where an N95 would be appropriate.  If I want to talk to someone, we meet outside.


With the delta given the high viral loads that’s a riskier proposition than it was with the prime. 


watfly said:


> Wouldn't snorkels work much better?  It would send the warm breath up and out, (aka redirect the plume) without blocking the inhalation of oxygen.  It would also solve LA County's issue with not being able to mask kids for swimming and water polo.


The Waterloo study would indicate the best use of masks are for short casual interactions indoors. Even if that plum redirects, the cloth masks aren’t going to help you if you are talking face to face with someone outdoors at a wedding, going through a Costco on a busy Sunday, on an airplane with a sick person behind you or in a classroom all day.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> With the delta given the high viral loads that’s a riskier proposition than it was with the prime.
> 
> The Waterloo study would indicate the best use of masks are for short casual interactions indoors. Even if that plum redirects, the cloth masks aren’t going to help you if you are talking face to face with someone outdoors at a wedding, going through a Costco on a busy Sunday, on an airplane with a sick person behind you or in a classroom all day.


I think you’re misinterpreting the Waterloo study, again.

Nothing in the study says masks are only useful for short indoor interactions.   Nor does the study say that masks wont help at an outdoor wedding.

Why bother with research if you’re just going to make stuff up and pretend it was from the papers?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think you’re misinterpreting the Waterloo study, again.
> 
> Nothing in the study says masks are only useful for short indoor interactions.   Nor does the study say that masks wont help at an outdoor wedding.
> 
> Why bother with research if you’re just going to make stuff up and pretend it was from the papers?


Well I’m trying to salvage a use for cloth masks based on what you outlined above.  Short usages in well ventilated areas seem about it. Or we could go with what the Waterloo study suggests: ventilation in most cases is better than cloth masks and cloth masks/surgical masks work poorly in unventilated or crowded spaces compared to better masks. The overall recommendation of the study was if you are going to do masks do better ones which I’ve been saying for quite a while but your side doesn’t want to have that discussion because you’ll know how it goes.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well I’m trying to salvage a use for cloth masks based on what you outlined above.  Short usages in well ventilated areas seem about it. Or we could go with what the Waterloo study suggests: ventilation in most cases is better than cloth masks and cloth masks/surgical masks work poorly in unventilated or crowded spaces compared to better masks. The overall recommendation of the study was if you are going to do masks do better ones which I’ve been saying for quite a while but your side doesn’t want to have that discussion because you’ll know how it goes.


The benefit of cloth masks is simple: they keep you from breathing viral aerosols directly into someone else’s face.

Cloth masks also act as a 10% efficient filter.  

What is there to salvage?  It’s very clear what they do, and what they do not do.  They block direct person to person transmission; they do not block indirect transmission from buildup in a room.

Therefore, the N95 is for places where viral aerosol concentrations can build up.   (shopping, airplanes, etc.)

Cloth is for meeting people in places where viral concentrations cannot build up.  (outdoors, very well ventilated classrooms, etc.)

The “N95 or nothing” drumbeat just doesn’t make sense.  What is the added benefit of an N95 when you are outside?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> There was a paper trying to measure that, but it has been withdrawn.
> 
> You can do a swag.  A normal resting breath is about 0.5 liters.  If your mask traps 100ml of air, then you’re only getting 80% new air.
> 
> The rebreathing effect is why I went with lightweight cloth instead of N95.  The cloth mask fits tight across my face and doesn’t feel stuffy because it traps a lot less air.
> 
> I mostly just avoid any situation where an N95 would be appropriate.  If I want to talk to someone, we meet outside.


Don't you get the sense that "experts" are tossing things up against the wall and waiting to see what sticks.  For every study, there is another study that contradicts, or a study that gets thrown out.  Viral load is a great example of a split in opinions and data.  Some show/think viral load matters, some think/show viral load can't be correlated to really anything.  Frustrating for many "run of the mill" medical professionals.  Many tend to ignore these studies and go with their training and deal with the symptoms in front of them.  Usually good practice by experienced medical professionals, none of which are on the news networks promoting their books.

This leads us to vaccine hesitancy. There is a major healthcare system in Arizona is running about 60% not vaccinated workers, by choice.  If the system decides to follow through on threats, there won't be many healthcare workers to found.  Interesting dilemma.  Last year they were heroes, this year they are killers of the vaccinated.

It's interesting to see how much regard is given to talking heads on TV who haven't practiced in years.  In spite of what the media likes to spew, plenty of Ivermectin, Hydroxy, etc are being prescribed - with many, many positive outcomes. MDs tend to know their patients, do their own research, and are generally smart.  Of course, you will have people who will venture to the feed store and the pet store and attempt to self medicate.  Never a good option.

And masking, well, polarizing to say the least. There was a time when masking during surgery was questioned.  Mainly as a cost saving option, but it was questioned and studies were done.  There was enough data to support both sides...imagine that.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The benefit of cloth masks is simple: they keep you from breathing viral aerosols directly into someone else’s face.
> 
> Cloth masks also act as a 10% efficient filter.
> 
> What is there to salvage?  It’s very clear what they do, and what they do not do.  They block direct person to person transmission; they do not block indirect transmission from buildup in a room.
> 
> Therefore, the N95 is for places where viral aerosol concentrations can build up.   (shopping, airplanes, etc.)
> 
> Cloth is for meeting people in places where viral concentrations cannot build up.  (outdoors, very well ventilated classrooms, etc.)
> 
> The “N95 or nothing” drumbeat just doesn’t make sense.  What is the added benefit of an N95 when you are outside?


That’s because you are now from the text of your statement at masks outdoors.  

sending kids to school with cloth masks, or shoppers on a Sunday at Costco, or on a plane are security theater.  But at least you are FINALLY willing to admit there’s a distinction.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Don't you get the sense that "experts" are tossing things up against the wall and waiting to see what sticks.  For every study, there is another study that contradicts, or a study that gets thrown out.  Viral load is a great example of a split in opinions and data.  Some show/think viral load matters, some think/show viral load can't be correlated to really anything.  Frustrating for many "run of the mill" medical professionals.  Many tend to ignore these studies and go with their training and deal with the symptoms in front of them.  Usually good practice by experienced medical professionals, none of which are on the news networks promoting their books.
> 
> This leads us to vaccine hesitancy. There is a major healthcare system in Arizona is running about 60% not vaccinated workers, by choice.  If the system decides to follow through on threats, there won't be many healthcare workers to found.  Interesting dilemma.  Last year they were heroes, this year they are killers of the vaccinated.
> 
> It's interesting to see how much regard is given to talking heads on TV who haven't practiced in years.  In spite of what the media likes to spew, plenty of Ivermectin, Hydroxy, etc are being prescribed - with many, many positive outcomes. MDs tend to know their patients, do their own research, and are generally smart.  Of course, you will have people who will venture to the feed store and the pet store and attempt to self medicate.  Never a good option.
> 
> And masking, well, polarizing to say the least. There was a time when masking during surgery was questioned.  Mainly as a cost saving option, but it was questioned and studies were done.  There was enough data to support both sides...imagine that.


I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.


----------



## crush

*CNN's Don Lemon rips parents opposed to mask mandates, says some conspiracy theorists shouldn't have had kids*
*'Just because you can have kids doesn’t mean you should'

"Why so angry? It’s a mask," Lemon said *


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> *CNN's Don Lemon rips parents opposed to mask mandates, says some conspiracy theorists shouldn't have had kids*
> *'Just because you can have kids doesn’t mean you should'
> 
> "Why so angry? It’s a mask," Lemon said *


Don doesn't have kids, he's just another adult that thinks kids should bear the burden to protect adults.  Pay to no mind to Lemon, nobody else does, he has one of the lowest rated programs on evening TV.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That’s because you are now from the text of your statement at masks outdoors.
> 
> sending kids to school with cloth masks, or shoppers on a Sunday at Costco, or on a plane are security theater.  But at least you are FINALLY willing to admit there’s a distinction.


“Security theater“ is a rhetorical device for claiming something doesn’t help, without actually having to bother providing any evidence for your claim.

The evidence, from the studies you have referenced, is that cloth masks prevent an infected person from breathing covid directly into the face of an uninfected person.  That is hygiene, not theater.

Do you have a logical objection to running a school with good ventilation and cloth masks?  The classroom HEPA filter prevents aerosol buildup, and the mask prevents direct person to person infection.  Much better than putting N95 masks on kids, and less community spread than going totally mask free.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Don doesn't have kids, he's just another adult that thinks kids should bear the burden to protect adults.  Pay to no mind to Lemon, nobody else does, he has one of the lowest rated programs on evening TV.


My old pal is drinking the Don Lemon kool aid and say's the same shit to me Wat Fly.  Millionaire out in Scottsdale, on golf course, retired, two sons with kiddos.  100% white and full of guilt for how he lived before he retired.  I'm giving a little back drop for my true story telling.  5 years ago he was out all over AZ preaching HRC and how evil t was.  t won and he was went ape shit. I was invited to his bday surprise party.  It was a custome party too because his bday falls on Oct 31.  I showed up dressed as Trump, I kid you not.  His son saw me before I got to the door and told me 100% I ruin the party and he would not let me in.  I had to out and find a Lemon mask and I was let in.  Fast forward to couple days ago and out of Blue, he emailed me to see how things were in California.  I told him the truth like I always do and he was tripping out on me and asked why I cuss now.  He told me, "Bill, what is wrong with you.  You need to do the jab for your safety, your children's safety and their children's and so on and so onn.  He said one of his son's was not listening like me and he finally got the jab.  I called his son later to get the real scoop and he said, "my dad basically said if I dont get jab no grandpa anymore ((and his money)) and he was serious so I got it.  I'm appalled at how some parents control their kids with money.  I told my pal my dd does whatever she feels is best for her and her alone.  I dont have any money to control her and even when I thought I did, my dd blazed her trail.  She could care a less about a buck.  She wants to play one more year of competitive soccer at the highest level possible in club & high school without any interruptions.  Girl just wants to play a soccer match, that's it.  If some need soccer all to themselves in college, enjoy it all.  I honestly have no clue on what my dd will end up doing but whatever she does, it will be all her choice, not daddy.  Daddy will not be holding her and coaching her on the calls either.  Da da is just a safe place to fall on, cry on and just talk to if want to, whenever you want.  If you need a place to sleep, you have a place.  Freedom for me should also include freedom for my kids on whatever path they choose.   Soon Wat Fly, this will all get better and a MERIT based society will rule.  Maritime Law was for Pirates, Cheaters & Liars.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Do you have a logical objection to running a school with good ventilation and cloth masks? The classroom HEPA filter prevents aerosol buildup, and the mask prevents direct person to person infection.


I do. 

It wont make any difference. 

But you try the math. 72 million kids 17 and under. 350 deaths since the beginning of this whole thing. 

Based on that data, tell me why we would bother masking them or changing filtration to try to "protect" them. 

Ah but what about the teachers. Well again...call me crazy. But we have had millions of kids in school last year both here and abroad. We didn't see teachers dropping off either.

So what exactly is the point? 

Large percentages of people are already vaxxed. Those at risk have been vaxxed at extremely high rates. 

Time to stop playing safety theater. Because that is all this is at this point.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> “Security theater“ is a rhetorical device for claiming something doesn’t help, without actually having to bother providing any evidence for your claim.
> 
> The evidence, from the studies you have referenced, is that cloth masks prevent an infected person from breathing covid directly into the face of an uninfected person.  That is hygiene, not theater.
> 
> Do you have a logical objection to running a school with good ventilation and cloth masks?  The classroom HEPA filter prevents aerosol buildup, and the mask prevents direct person to person infection.  Much better than putting N95 masks on kids, and less community spread than going totally mask free.


So you are down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".  that's your standard now?  Wow, look at how far we've come.  From masks are better than vaccines to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".

You know, as well, that Spain, France, Italy and (on public transportation) Germany don't allow cloth masks?  You know as well that none of these countries require masking of young children?

As usual, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis.  The benefit of cloth masks is very small.  Again, we're down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".  The costs, particularly when it comes to kids, are high, and on top of that we have an alternative from the study (which is better ventilation).  In places were better ventilation isn't a possibility, we need to have a serious discussion of what we need to do as a society.  But we can't have that discussion until you realize that cloth masks are the equivalent of a bandaid on the problem, and a clear explanation for why the real world results (again see Hawaii, Israel, Iceland), don't match your preferred theories.


----------



## Yours in futbol

Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.

Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?

Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.


----------



## watfly

Yours in futbol said:


> Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.
> 
> Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?
> 
> Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.


Exhibit A for Strawman argument.


----------



## what-happened

Yours in futbol said:


> Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.
> 
> Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?
> 
> Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.


So I guess your position is to mask kids.  Let's hear why.....


----------



## Yours in futbol

what-happened said:


> So I guess your position is to mask kids.  Let's hear why.....





watfly said:


> Exhibit A for Strawman argument.



It's a question.  Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So you are down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".  that's your standard now?  Wow, look at how far we've come.  From masks are better than vaccines to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".
> 
> You know, as well, that Spain, France, Italy and (on public transportation) Germany don't allow cloth masks?  You know as well that none of these countries require masking of young children?
> 
> As usual, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis.  The benefit of cloth masks is very small.  Again, we're down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".  The costs, particularly when it comes to kids, are high, and on top of that we have an alternative from the study (which is better ventilation).  In places were better ventilation isn't a possibility, we need to have a serious discussion of what we need to do as a society.  But we can't have that discussion until you realize that cloth masks are the equivalent of a bandaid on the problem, and a clear explanation for why the real world results (again see Hawaii, Israel, Iceland), don't match your preferred theories.


“How far we’ve come“?  Well, yes.  I read the studies from places like MIT and Waterloo, and change my opinion based on current research.

You read over the exact same studies.  I assume you see the part where they note that masks cause a 70-80% reduction in transmission.  Yet you persist in making the exact same claim as you made before you read the study.  

It’s as though you see the study as nothing more than an opportunity to prove that your previous opinion was correct.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.


Plenty of data coming from front line health care professionals from all over the world.  Most Americans get their news/info via a carefully curated filter.  Most receive their medical information from people who are not medical professionals, haven't practiced in forever (great writers though), or who are tied to Pharma companies in some form or fashion.  There is a reason why Big pharma likes to make it's home in the US.  It's easier to make money here.


----------



## watfly

Yours in futbol said:


> It's a question.  Not an argument.
> 
> Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?
> 
> If so, how many.
> 
> Just say no if that's the case.


In San Diego, it appears it is at least no lower than than those that have died from Covid...zero.


----------



## what-happened

Yours in futbol said:


> It's a question.  Not an argument.
> 
> Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?
> 
> If so, how many.
> 
> Just say no if that's the case.


No.  But plenty of evidence on evidence on what masking does to kids.  Do you have small kids with learning disabilities by chance?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> “How far we’ve come“?  Well, yes.  I read the studies from places like MIT and Waterloo, and change my opinion based on current research.
> 
> You read over the exact same studies.  I assume you see the part where they note that masks cause a 70-80% reduction in transmission.  Yet you persist in making the exact same claim as you made before you read the study.
> 
> It’s as though you see the study as nothing more than an opportunity to prove that your previous opinion was correct.


My previous opinion was correct.  Not only correct but bullseye.  Cloth mask cause a 10% reduction in transmitted particles and they recommend higher quality masks.  IF we are going to do masking, we should do effective masking.  Since high quality masking isn't feasible in all situations, we should look to the cost/benefit analysis for each situations.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.


Those are different silos.  The front line is not immune to issues with trust.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> Those are different silos.  The front line is not immune to issues with trust.


Understood, but between the two I'm going to lean towards the real world experience.  Regardless, I'm a trust but verify type of person, until you lose my trust.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Understood, but between the two I'm going to lean towards the real world experience.  Regardless, I'm a trust but verify type of person, until you lose my trust.


I figured that is what you meant but the front lines is where Cuomo was able to manipulate LTC facilities in to accepting less sick COVID folks that infected high risk elderly folks.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> My previous opinion was correct.  Not only correct but bullseye.  Cloth mask cause a 10% reduction in transmitted particles and they recommend higher quality masks.  IF we are going to do masking, we should do effective masking.  Since high quality masking isn't feasible in all situations, we should look to the cost/benefit analysis for each situations.


You are still completely ignoring the respiratory plume.   For well ventilated areas, the plume is by far the largest risk.  For poorly ventilated areas, the plume is still a very large fraction of the risk. 

Put another way, you were correct, except for the part where you were wrong.  You believe a 70% reduction is really a 10% reduction, and this is possible because you are ignoring the pathway for over half of transmission events.


----------



## what-happened

Bruddah IZ said:


> I figured that is what you meant but the front lines is where Cuomo was able to manipulate LTC facilities in to accepting less sick COVID folks that infected high risk elderly folks.


I get what you are saying and big corporate health care systems are more easily manipulated by people like Cuomo. 

I'm looking a bit further offshore, where front line workers are treating populations in Africa, India, and other places where there is less corporate medicine  influence.  Interesting stuff coming out of there.  There are sophisticated people doing great work treating these populations.  That's not being dismissed by many in Europe and across the Pond.  "first, do no harm" is a real thing and there are different approaches in how this is executed.


----------



## Desert Hound

Yours in futbol said:


> It's a question.  Not an argument.
> 
> Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?
> 
> If so, how many.
> 
> Just say no if that's the case.


A better question is...

If in a population of 72 million there have only been 350 or so deaths, why are we even considering masks? 

Based on that stat, there is no risk to them. So one wonders why the concern? Why the rush to mask them up when the data shows they have no risk. 

That is the real question.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> No.  But plenty of evidence on evidence on what masking does to kids.  Do you have small kids with learning disabilities by chance?


What evidence on evidence is that?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What evidence on evidence is that?


Go find a parent with a child with a speech impediment.  Let me know how that works out for you..


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> A better question is...
> 
> If in a population of 72 million there have only been 350 or so deaths, why are we even considering masks?
> 
> Based on that stat, there is no risk to them. So one wonders why the concern? Why the rush to mask them up when the data shows they have no risk.
> 
> That is the real question.


setting the stage.  Masks look scary which leads to mandatory vaccination of an extremely low risk population  with a vaccine with zero long term studies.  Sounds ethical right?

Once a vaccine is approved, we'll get the constant barrage of uncomfortably weird ads on TV guilting parents into vaccinating their kids under 12.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.


Those are different silos.  The front line is not immune to issues with trust.


Yours in futbol said:


> It's a question.  Not an argument.
> 
> Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?
> 
> If so, how many.
> 
> Just say no if that's the case.


No.  They do remind me of assasins creed.  Makes me wonder why they wear them at all.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are still completely ignoring the respiratory plume.   For well ventilated areas, the plume is by far the largest risk.  For poorly ventilated areas, the plume is still a very large fraction of the risk.
> 
> Put another way, you were correct, except for the part where you were wrong.  You believe a 70% reduction is really a 10% reduction, and this is possible because you are ignoring the pathway for over half of transmission events.


I would have said for the prime you were correct about that.  It is why I was o.k. with a cloth mask indoor mandate at first.  For the Delta, we are seeing that's just not the case.  The viral loads are high enough that a 10% reduction in particles, 50% reduction through cloth masks directly, redirection of the plum in a not well ventilated area just isn't going to do it.  You are going to get enough to get sick.  If you really want masks as a solution, you've got to get in line with Europe which has said these things aren't very much help.

As for half of transmission events, errr people aren't wearing them close talking with their friends outdoors, people aren't wearing them at home with ill relatives, people aren't wearing them when they go over to their friends houses, and they aren't doing a whole lot of good taking them off when you sit down at a table to eat.

The discussion should be centered on either high quality mask mandates in certain situations (such as for example airplanes and buses) or we don't do them because they aren't working as well anymore and the benefit we are getting for cost is miniscule.  Like I said in my anecdote, that little girl walking into the outdoor restaurant tent, wearing a mask with gapping holes on the side larger than 3cm, isn't helping her or anyone else in the restaurant and certainly isn't helping anyone around her in the classroom. Theater.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Yours in futbol said:


> It's a question.  Not an argument.


The role of "espola" is filled on this board. Please find another village.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The role of "espola" is filled on this board. Please find another village.


I think you mean "neighborhood"


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Go find a parent with a child with a speech impediment.  Let me know how that works out for you..


That's not evidence.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Krispy Kreme is upping the doughnut ante in its COVID-19 vaccine push, doubling the number of free sweet treats that vaccinated customers can receive if they jabbed.  Vaccinated patrons can get an *original* glazed, along with a *heart-shaped *doughnut, as part of the company's *"Show Your Heart,"* which runs from Monday to Sept. 5.
> 
> 
> View attachment 11529


So the post above this one of the woke pro-vaxxer frequents KK?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You are still completely ignoring the respiratory plume.


You are still completely ignoring the SARS and MERS outcomes in the absence of SIP and NPI policies.


----------



## Yours in futbol

what-happened said:


> No.  But plenty of evidence on evidence on what masking does to kids.  Do you have small kids with learning disabilities by chance?


No, please explain.

If there was even a single death or severe illness/hospitalization caused by wearing a mask, I'd consider that a compelling argument against masks in schools in and of itself.  Which is why I was asking.

But please do explain what masking does to kids, and if you have time, identify the studies.  I'm curious what is driving this anti-mask fervor other than a vague assertion of personal freedom.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> That's not evidence.


Hysteria doesn't rely on evidence.


----------



## Desert Hound

Yours in futbol said:


> I'd consider that a compelling argument against masks


You still haven't answered. What is the compelling argument for wearing masks in schools. 

Start with this number 72 million people under that age of 17. 350 deaths. 

Make a logical argument in light of those numbers for mandating this group wear masks in schools. 

After all those that advocate a solution, need to explain why the solution is justified in the first place.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The role of "espola" is filled on this board. Please find another village.


It's curious too we have a three word combo "yours in football".  We see a lot of 3-4 word pithy sayings from people coming to these boards with similar messages.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I would have said for the prime you were correct about that.  It is why I was o.k. with a cloth mask indoor mandate at first.  For the Delta, we are seeing that's just not the case.  The viral loads are high enough that a 10% reduction in particles, 50% reduction through cloth masks directly, redirection of the plum in a not well ventilated area just isn't going to do it.  You are going to get enough to get sick.  If you really want masks as a solution, you've got to get in line with Europe which has said these things aren't very much help.
> 
> As for half of transmission events, errr people aren't wearing them close talking with their friends outdoors, people aren't wearing them at home with ill relatives, people aren't wearing them when they go over to their friends houses, and they aren't doing a whole lot of good taking them off when you sit down at a table to eat.
> 
> The discussion should be centered on either high quality mask mandates in certain situations (such as for example airplanes and buses) or we don't do them because they aren't working as well anymore and the benefit we are getting for cost is miniscule.  Like I said in my anecdote, that little girl walking into the outdoor restaurant tent, wearing a mask with gapping holes on the side larger than 3cm, isn't helping her or anyone else in the restaurant and certainly isn't helping anyone around her in the classroom. Theater.


Where do you see any evidence that masks are less effective at reducing delta transmission?

You keep making that assertion.  Do you have anything at all to back it up?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Where do you see any evidence that masks are less effective at reducing delta transmission?
> 
> You keep making that assertion.  Do you have anything at all to back it up?


Why don't you start with the article she posted last week that went through the major studies on mask effectiveness.  You know...the one you studiously ignored.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Where do you see any evidence that masks are less effective at reducing delta transmission?
> 
> You keep making that assertion.  Do you have anything at all to back it up?


a. the higher viral loads involved in the Delta
b. your own argument that Asia had contained it because the masks, and now look, they haven't with the Delta.
c. Put together with the waterloo study.

I can't believe you are at that the Delta is the same as Prime to justify your mask beliefs?  That's pretty jaw dropping.


----------



## what-happened

Yours in futbol said:


> No, please explain.
> 
> If there was even a single death or severe illness/hospitalization caused by wearing a mask, I'd consider that a compelling argument against masks in schools in and of itself.  Which is why I was asking.
> 
> But please do explain what masking does to kids, and if you have time, identify the studies.  I'm curious what is driving this anti-mask fervor other than a vague assertion of personal freedom.


You appear to have some semblance of intellect. You know exactly the argument for not masking kids, especially younger children.  Our Euro counterparts appear to 100% disagree with masking for children, especially those under the age of 13.  Pick a country, Sweden (that should get you fired up), Ireland, Denmark, England, Iceland, many more.  They are not interested in masking children.  The CDC and the ECDC have differing views on potential outcomes for younger children.


----------



## Yours in futbol

Desert Hound said:


> You still haven't answered. What is the compelling argument for wearing masks in schools.
> 
> Start with this number 72 million people under that age of 17. 350 deaths.
> 
> Make a logical argument in light of those numbers for mandating this group wear masks in schools.
> 
> After all those that advocate a solution, need to explain why the solution is justified in the first place.



I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

(And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)

All I am looking for is a clear, specific explanation of the harmful effects that masks have on kids and supporting studies/information, if someone would like to take the time to provide it.  If there are no known harmful effects, that's fine.  Just ignore my question or say you don't know of any.

I understand that we've ruled out the possibility that masks will make kids severely ill or kill them, and I also understand people have made some assertions to personal freedom - so something other than those things.  One guy alluded to an issue for kids with disabilities - that's definitely a consideration in California if true because it would potentially expose the school/district to liability (FWIW I'm skeptical of disparate effects on kids with disabilities because those lawsuits would surely have been filed by now and I'm not aware of any - but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


>


Of course this thing is all about population control.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> 
> (And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)
> 
> All I am looking for is a clear, specific explanation of the harmful effects that masks have on kids and supporting studies/information, if someone would like to take the time to provide it.  If there are no known harmful effects, that's fine.  Just ignore my question or say you don't know of any.
> 
> I understand that we've ruled out the possibility that masks will make kids severely ill or kill them, and I also understand people have made some assertions to personal freedom - so something other than those things.  One guy alluded to an issue for kids with disabilities - that's definitely a consideration in California if true because it would potentially expose the school/district to liability (FWIW I'm skeptical of disparate effects on kids with disabilities because those lawsuits would surely have been filed by now and I'm not aware of any - but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


I mean, we should know right?  Masking of children worked during MERS and SARS1.  The SIP and NPI's worked wonderfully during both MERS and SARS1.  You hardly even noticed that we mandated such measures because mask saved so many children's lives during MERS and SARS-1.   Makes you wonder why they didn't employ them sooner to save us from the child killing influenza.


----------



## Grace T.

Yours in futbol said:


> (And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)


I'm beginning to suspect this may be yet another clone of a certain person I know.


----------



## watfly

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> 
> (And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)
> 
> All I am looking for is a clear, specific explanation of the harmful effects that masks have on kids and supporting studies/information, if someone would like to take the time to provide it.  If there are no known harmful effects, that's fine.  Just ignore my question or say you don't know of any.
> 
> I understand that we've ruled out the possibility that masks will make kids severely ill or kill them, and I also understand people have made some assertions to personal freedom - so something other than those things.  One guy alluded to an issue for kids with disabilities - that's definitely a consideration in California if true because it would potentially expose the school/district to liability (FWIW I'm skeptical of disparate effects on kids with disabilities because those lawsuits would surely have been filed by now and I'm not aware of any - but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


I guess we have different perspectives.  I believe that you should have to show evidence for the exception and not the standard.  You seem to believe that the standard has to be proved and not the exception.

I will repeat what I said, for San Diego County zero children have died of Covid...zero, nada, nil, zilch.  You say what's the harm in making kids wear masks?  I say what evidence do you have that kids need to wear masks?  You have it completely backwards.


----------



## NorCalDad

Children now account for 36% of Tennessee’s virus cases
					

According to researchers from Johns Hopkins, Tennessee ranks sixth in the country for new cases per capita. The rolling average number of daily new cases has increased by about 2,200, an increase o…




					www.wkrn.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. the higher viral loads involved in the Delta
> b. your own argument that Asia had contained it because the masks, and now look, they haven't with the Delta.
> c. Put together with the waterloo study.
> 
> I can't believe you are at that the Delta is the same as Prime to justify your mask beliefs?  That's pretty jaw dropping.


Jaw dropping, except for the minor detail that I never said that.

What I said:   Unless there is evidence to the contrary, we should assume that masks cause the same percentage reduction for Delta as masks cause for prime.  

As for your hand waving arguments:

a- Higher viral loads do not imply that masks have a lower percentage reduction for Delta.
b- An equal percentage reduction from a higher base is fully consistent with the recent case rates from Asia.
c- The Waterloo study never claims that the percentage reduction for Delta is at all changed.  

Now, do you have any actual evidence that masks cause a lower percentage reduction for Delta than for any other variant?  Evidence, as in a link and a quote from a published paper.   Not just writing “there is a surge in Taipei, so the masks must be a bad idea.”


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It's curious too we have a three word combo "yours in football".  We see a lot of 3-4 word pithy sayings from people coming to these boards with similar messages.


It hit me when EOTL went on one of his rants a few months back - likely fueled by booze that caused his guard to drop - and said something very close to "I can bend the board to my will". You can't do that with a single alias and certainly not with one a divisive and misanthropic as EOTL. As I thought a bit more about the folks that post here, the personalities that come through tend to be pretty distinct - you, crush, dad, km2 (when she was on), watfly, hound, kicker, bruddah, etc. However, there were a few that had unusually common underlying themes - "parents are idiots", the use of the word "pathetic", condescension, and underlying anger - as well as a consistent underlying political agenda - EOTL (the most "extreme"), thelonggame, notintheface, etc. Occasionally, you would notice that he seemed to forget the "personality" he was posting under such as the time notintheface called you a "c*nt". That was the realm of EOTL.

Now, about a year and a half into the pandemic we have new users that have a keen interest in masks finding their way to "Off Topic 2", and they are pushing a familiar agenda in a familiar tone. Also, as you state, the names have a common cadence, don't they? That just doesn't pass the smell test any more than the monolithic pile of bat dung that EOTL and his spawn represents.


----------



## Desert Hound

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Actually feel free to look up and post anything dad has said relating to 72 million kids and only 350 deaths. 

He avoids talking about that. He says he is a math guy. If he is, then he would tell you that the risk is non existent to this group. 

But don't believe me. Try to find anything where he talks about that. 

In the meantime, why don't you explain why you think a group of 72 million people who have had only 350 deaths should be mandated to wear masks? Try doing that on your own. Then feel free to post anything dad has said addressing those numbers.


----------



## NorCalDad

Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
					

Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Yours in futbol said:


> but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


Lets start with this. 

With 72 million kids and only 350 deaths....you tell us why you think this group should mask up. 

What risk do they have that would justify wearing masks?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Go find a parent with a child with a speech impediment.  Let me know how that works out for you..


I would have been screwed in the mask class back in the 70s.  I stuttered so bad this would have ruined me socially.  "Take your mask off before you speak dummy."  However, I would have just surfed everyday and just worked instead.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Yours in futbol said:


> (And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)


Just wear a mask dude.  Seems to work miracles.  Especially for kids.  Makes them feel like women in the middle east.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Clear as mud through a snorkel.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Yours in futbol said:


> I understand that we've ruled out the possibility that masks will make kids severely ill or kill them, and I also understand people have made some assertions to personal freedom - so something other than those things.  One guy alluded to an issue for kids with disabilities - that's definitely a consideration in California if true because it would potentially expose the school/district to liability (FWIW I'm skeptical of disparate effects on kids with disabilities because those lawsuits would surely have been filed by now and I'm not aware of any - but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


Funny how you people ignore the MERS and SARS1 outcomes while looking at a years worth of SARS-2 data, on policies never before tried,  to find empirical data for the adverse effects on child mask wearing.  It's laughable.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
> 
> 
> Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


You missed the part where it says kids account for 1.8% of hospitalizations.  If there are a ton of cases out there, then of course the cases among kids and kids in hospital are going to rise.  BTW this happens with a bad flu and a bad RSV season too.  This article is just more of the fear porn trying to lay the ground work for possible school closures.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> That's not evidence.


Yes it is fool.  Plus, it's cruel and unusual punishment to put masks on little kids and teenagers and the adults.  Loser's lost and this is what they do, they ruin other peoples lives and then try and pin it on the domestic terrorists. Bribes and blackmail runs deep in some places.  I hear DHS was handing children off to the trafficker's you asshole.  The same DHS is saying I am a terrorist.  This is so about the kids is obvious.  Teachers supporting fear and mental abuse is BS!  Take the mask off now!!!  "What kids had died with a mask" is fucking bullshit question.  What mental abuse are we causing the kiddos.  All you on the side of masking kids have karma coming for your ass.  Trust me!  At least the truck drivers are striking in Australia.  . If teachers who cared about the kids first would take a stand for freedom and not their retirement, we could fix this shit now.  You mask people suck!!  Now, when the next big false flag hits, don't blame me for it.  Losers!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Jaw dropping, except for the minor detail that I never said that.
> 
> What I said:   Unless there is evidence to the contrary, we should assume that masks cause the same percentage reduction for Delta as masks cause for prime.
> 
> As for your hand waving arguments:
> 
> a- Higher viral loads do not imply that masks have a lower percentage reduction for Delta.
> b- An equal percentage reduction from a higher base is fully consistent with the recent case rates from Asia.
> c- The Waterloo study never claims that the percentage reduction for Delta is at all changed.
> 
> Now, do you have any actual evidence that masks cause a lower percentage reduction for Delta than for any other variant?  Evidence, as in a link and a quote from a published paper.   Not just writing “there is a surge in Taipei, so the masks must be a bad idea.”


Errr...I thought you were a math guy?  Are you disputing that the Delta has a higher viral load than Prime?

Isn't the model very simple....Viral load you are exposed to - that protected by the mask> the minimum amount of exposure required to get COVID ----> you have COVID

If the viral load is higher but the masks don't improve in quality, you get more people sick.

Really really really basic stuff here.  It also explains what's happening in real world if you assume arguendo, as you said you believed, masks did it in Asia.  There would have to be an explanation as to why then it worked then and why it isn't working now.  So while a cloth mask may have been adequate in some circumstances before, now not so much.

Again, really really really basic stuff, particularly for a math guy.  But it is one thing I've noticed about the higher mathematics types...the further they go down the rabbit hole of higher mathematical principles, the less an appreciation the basics meant to them.  Whenever I'm dealing with a new BA type, I remember having to constantly tell them to not get lost in the weeds of their own brilliance and to refocus them on the basics.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> You missed the part where it says kids account for 1.8% of hospitalizations.  If there are a ton of cases out there, then of course the cases among kids and kids in hospital are going to rise.  BTW this happens with a bad flu and a bad RSV season too.  This article is just more of the fear porn trying to lay the ground work for possible school closures.


When I read "Surge to Highest on Record" I almost pee'd my pants...but then I read the article.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Just wear a mask dude.  Seems to work miracles.  Especially for kids.  Makes them feel like women in the middle east.


You know why they treat woman like shit over there, right?  The dudes can;t control themselves and have been taught wrong about God's most beautiful creatures ever created, the woman  The Afghnai women are some of the most beautiful in the world.  The men are whacked and so backwards they can;t handle the beauty, especial the beauty of a woman's hair.  It's start with the hair guys if your not a pervert, then eyes and then the smile.  Genesis shares about this very thing.  The dudes couldn;t control themselves in their religion so they put a sheet over the girls head.  It's the woman's fault for making men lust they say.  What a waste of beauty because some dude can't stop lusting.  2022 is the year to free all of the woman.

1970s Afghanistan Ladies


----------



## espola

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't have a compelling argument for masks that hasn't already been made by dad4.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> 
> (And honestly, I don't see the point to arguing with you guys.  It's easier to just put people like Grace T on ignore.)
> 
> All I am looking for is a clear, specific explanation of the harmful effects that masks have on kids and supporting studies/information, if someone would like to take the time to provide it.  If there are no known harmful effects, that's fine.  Just ignore my question or say you don't know of any.
> 
> I understand that we've ruled out the possibility that masks will make kids severely ill or kill them, and I also understand people have made some assertions to personal freedom - so something other than those things.  One guy alluded to an issue for kids with disabilities - that's definitely a consideration in California if true because it would potentially expose the school/district to liability (FWIW I'm skeptical of disparate effects on kids with disabilities because those lawsuits would surely have been filed by now and I'm not aware of any - but I'm interested in hearing more if that amounts to evidence that masks have harmful effects on kids).


Any school child who has a disability that contraindicates the use of masks can get an exemption.  

And don't ignore Grace.  She is a source of daily entertainment, once you know what to expect.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm beginning to suspect this may be yet another clone of a certain person I know.


Which one?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Which one?


Kicking has a theory up above.  It's not you.  The other trolls do it much better than you.

I never bought into the theory espola=busker=EOTL.  What I do find curious is that one day you were waxing lyrical about posting a wall of shame of antivaxxers who died of COVID, but decided not to when called out on it, but then Novadad decides to do it and you are there commenting that it's morbid.  You two also always seem to show up at the same time like Clark Kent and Superman, but it may very well just be someone who was actually willing to do what you fantasied about.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Kicking has a theory up above.  It's not you.  The other trolls do it much better than you.
> 
> *I never bought into the theory espola=busker=EOTL. * What I do find curious is that one day you were waxing lyrical about posting a wall of shame of antivaxxers who died of COVID, but decided not to when called out on it, but then Novadad decides to do it and you are there commenting that it's morbid.  You two also always seem to show up at the same time like Clark Kent and Superman, but it may very well just be someone who was actually willing to do what you fantasied about.


Look, way back when in them old forum days, they had master avatar accounts (Dom killed it.  Thanks Dom)) to use to punch people with bullshit and take out their pride & ego out on others all the while hiding behind a screen like a big baby.  I forget the avatar's names but some of the fellas would have the login and then hide behind their hate they spewed that day.  Back then it was to attack a kid and or their father. Today, it's all mafia politics. These dudes mean business Grace. I used to get some nasty PMs and warnings from old friends in the game to back "off Charlie" and "you best STFU or else."  I told them to stop lying to 13 and 14 year olds and say sorry and it's cool.   
Espola is not for kids and has zero kids in the game.  WTF is he here?   EOTL hated kids ((no kids in the game and threaten me and my dd not to be around his "neighborhood")) and has no kids in the game.  WTF is he still here hiding behind all these avatars?  Because he's sicko that's whyo.   K & S is smart and is onto what I have been unto from the beginning.  I took on the Beast.  The Beast hates me and I know why and he knows why.  I win and he loses at the end.  Millstone business is big time now at Camp Delta, down at the Bay.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Kicking has a theory up above.  It's not you.  The other trolls do it much better than you.
> 
> I never bought into the theory espola=busker=EOTL.  What I do find curious is that one day you were waxing lyrical about posting a wall of shame of antivaxxers who died of COVID, but decided not to when called out on it, but then Novadad decides to do it and you are there commenting that it's morbid.  You two also always seem to show up at the same time like Clark Kent and Superman, but it may very well just be someone who was actually willing to do what you fantasied about.


Nobody called me out.  I said I wasn't going to do it because it was too morbid.  I feel it is appropriate to repeat that judgment when I see someone else doing it.

You just invent new shit every day, don't you?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Nobody called me out.  I said I wasn't going to do it because it was too morbid.  I feel it is appropriate to repeat that judgment when I see someone else doing it.
> 
> You just invent new shit every day, don't you?


back to being magoo, or just embarrassed (if that’s even possible with you) by your behavior and what you suggested (and that someone else is living your fantasy)?

funny Too that the poster’s sole contribution to the covid discussion is your fantasy….hmmmm.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> back to being magoo, or just embarrassed (if that’s even possible with you) by your behavior and what you suggested (and that someone else is living your fantasy)?
> 
> funny Too that the poster’s sole contribution to the covid discussion is your fantasy….hmmmm.


Do you have yourself convinced yet?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr...I thought you were a math guy?  Are you disputing that the Delta has a higher viral load than Prime?
> 
> Isn't the model very simple....Viral load you are exposed to - that protected by the mask> the minimum amount of exposure required to get COVID ----> you have COVID
> 
> If the viral load is higher but the masks don't improve in quality, you get more people sick.
> 
> Really really really basic stuff here.  It also explains what's happening in real world if you assume arguendo, as you said you believed, masks did it in Asia.  There would have to be an explanation as to why then it worked then and why it isn't working now.  So while a cloth mask may have been adequate in some circumstances before, now not so much.
> 
> Again, really really really basic stuff, particularly for a math guy.  But it is one thing I've noticed about the higher mathematics types...the further they go down the rabbit hole of higher mathematical principles, the less an appreciation the basics meant to them.  Whenever I'm dealing with a new BA type, I remember having to constantly tell them to not get lost in the weeds of their own brilliance and to refocus them on the basics.


You do realize that you are trying to tell me how to interpret a parameter in a 2 variable differential equation?  

Ok.  Go back to telling me how easy the math is...


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You do realize that you are trying to tell me how to interpret a parameter in a 2 variable differential equation?
> 
> Ok.  Go back to telling me how easy the math is...


PM me your address dad and I'll mail you one, just for you.  A great xmas gift, ehh? 









						Image of the Day: Now, one can easily eat food while wearing this mask
					

The Image of the Day brings to a look at a mask which is no longer a barrier to you. Now, one can easily eat food while wearing this mask worn by a man in this video circulated across the internet. Here's a look.




					www.indiatoday.in


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Do you have yourself convinced yet?


Oh I was convinced long ago you were a fool and a troll.  As you know, we only added liar recently.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You do realize that you are trying to tell me how to interpret a parameter in a 2 variable differential equation?
> 
> Ok.  Go back to telling me how easy the math is...


Again, you made my point (painfully obviously this time): forest and trees.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, you made my point (painfully obviously this time): forest and trees.


Your point?  Both points, actually.

You believe I am off in my own little theoretical world with no connection to reality.  

I believe you're pretending to understand things about which you have utterly no clue.

I'm ok with that.  It's a pretty good description.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your point?  Both points, actually.
> 
> You believe I am off in my own little theoretical world with no connection to reality.
> 
> I believe you're pretending to understand things about which you have utterly no clue.
> 
> I'm ok with that.  It's a pretty good description.


Fair summation of our respective beliefs. I do note, however, that back in law school I dated someone (quiet seriously) who was a student at the div school. Though my majors were Soviet studies and Econ, In undergrad I spent quite a few courses taking comparative religion classes. I spent many a Friday night at the div school in the lounge having riveting discussions with people of various religions but the traditional Christians were the most interesting, particularly since I knew the history of the early church and the early gospels backwards and forwards and could dissect their arguments fairly easily. Our conversations bore a striking resemblance to our conversations…eerily so.  My favorite personally was the Mormon plates discussion one blizzard evening.  The explanation I always got for why I was wrong is “you don’t understand”. Again, whether it be Afghanistan or 2008 or covid, the experts, for a variety of reasons, have an amazing ability to miss the forest through the trees.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Fair summation of our respective beliefs. I do note, however, that back in law school I dated someone (quiet seriously) who was a student at the div school. Though my majors were Soviet studies and Econ, In undergrad I spent quite a few courses taking comparative religion classes. I spent many a Friday night at the div school in the lounge having riveting discussions with people of various religions but the traditional Christians were the most interesting, particularly since I knew the history of the early church and the early gospels backwards and forwards and could dissect their arguments fairly easily. Our conversations bore a striking resemblance to our conversations…eerily so.  My favorite personally was the Mormon plates discussion one blizzard evening.  The explanation I always got for why I was wrong is “you don’t understand”. Again, whether it be Afghanistan or 2008 or covid, the experts, for a variety of reasons, have an amazing ability to miss the forest through the trees.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> * My favorite personally was the Mormon plates discussion one blizzard evening*.  T*he explanation I always got for why I was wrong is “you don’t understand”. *


Have you heard of the "burning of the bosom?"  When this is all over Grace, I would love to have coffee with you and my wife.  Great stuff from a great mind


----------



## crush

Sometimes it takes a trucker to get the job done.  Good look down under.


----------



## espola




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> View attachment 11532


This was obviously done before the leaky vaccine with waning protection was a thing.


----------



## Yours in futbol

Desert Hound said:


> Lets start with this.
> 
> With 72 million kids and only 350 deaths....you tell us why you think this group should mask up.
> 
> What risk do they have that would justify wearing masks?


I don't necessarily think they should.

But in order to make an argument for masks in my local community/school district, I'd like to be able to balance the harms. 

So on one hand, we have a very, very small percentage of kids that have died from COVID.  So obviously very, very limited benefit to wearing masks, but I'm sure you'll concede nonetheless that there is some very, very small benefit.

What do we have to balance that against?  What is the harm that is caused to kids by having them wear masks?  That's what I'm asking.

Usually, when we talk about these things at school board meetings or community chat groups, the anti-mask people just keep coming back to personal freedom.  They can't cite to any cognizable, harmful effects from wearing masks.  So I stupidly came to a soccer forum to ask if someone could cite to anything.  In my defense, these threads comprise thousands of posts, some of which are interesting evaluations of legitimate studies, so I assumed that somewhere down the line, someone could identify whether any kids had suffered harmful effects (illness, death, hospitalization, whatever.)


----------



## Desert Hound

According to a large study conducted by the CDC, rates of COVID transmission are no higher in schools without a mask mandate than in schools with a requirement to wear a mask.



> _The study, which analyzed some 90,000 elementary students in 169 Georgia schools from November 16 to December 11, *found that there was no statistically significant difference in schools that required students to wear masks compared to schools where masks were optional.*
> “The 21% lower incidence in schools that required mask use among students was not statistically significant compared with schools where mask use was optional,” the CDC said. “This finding might be attributed to higher effectiveness of masks among adults, who are at higher risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection but might also result from differences in mask-wearing behavior among students in schools with optional requirements.”
> As New York magazine’s David Zweig noted, these findings, as well as other statistically insignificant preventive measures, “cast doubt on the impact of many of the most common mitigation measures in American schools.”_


_The CDC’s findings on masks and other preventive measures would not be particularly noteworthy or controversial outside the US. As New York magazine noted, *many European nations have exempted students from mask mandates—including the UK, all of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and even France and Italy—though with varying age cutoffs. The results have not been dire.

“Conspicuously, there’s no evidence of more outbreaks in schools in those countries relative to schools in the U.S., where the solid majority of kids wore masks for an entire academic year and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future,”* wrote Zweig. “These countries, along with the World Health Organization, whose child-masking guidance differs substantially from the CDC’s recommendations, have explicitly recognized that the decision to mask students carries with it potential academic and social harms for children and may lack a clear benefit.”_


----------



## Desert Hound

Yours in futbol said:


> but I'm sure you'll concede nonetheless that there is some very, very small benefit.


Actually the CDC has a study and can't find a benefit. See above. They looked at schools that mandated masks vs those that didn't. There was no statistical difference. 

This age group has zero risk. 

To put another way, far more kids in this age group die from the FLU. And despite that we don't contact trace, don't try masks, don't socially distance them, etc. 

And unfortunately most of those 350 kids that died? Almost every one had very serious health issues. The data doesn't break it down, but I lay money that most of those 350 kids were not even in school due to their health issues. 

It is bad policy to look at the numbers above and think that something has to be done. It will not make any difference in that number. We have data not only here but world wide. Many other countries have tossed the masks in schools and they have found that nothing bad happened. 

Why people don't look at the data out there is beyond belief. 

We should be looking at the 72 million and 350 deaths and think....GREAT!!! This is one group we don't have to worry about AT ALL. 

You ask what is the harm? The better and most relevant question is what is the benefit? And the data shows there won't be any benefit.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


>


----------



## Grace T.

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't necessarily think they should.
> 
> But in order to make an argument for masks in my local community/school district, I'd like to be able to balance the harms.
> 
> So on one hand, we have a very, very small percentage of kids that have died from COVID.  So obviously very, very limited benefit to wearing masks, but I'm sure you'll concede nonetheless that there is some very, very small benefit.
> 
> What do we have to balance that against?  What is the harm that is caused to kids by having them wear masks?  That's what I'm asking.
> 
> Usually, when we talk about these things at school board meetings or community chat groups, the anti-mask people just keep coming back to personal freedom.  They can't cite to any cognizable, harmful effects from wearing masks.  So I stupidly came to a soccer forum to ask if someone could cite to anything.  In my defense, these threads comprise thousands of posts, some of which are interesting evaluations of legitimate studies, so I assumed that somewhere down the line, someone could identify whether any kids had suffered harmful effects (illness, death, hospitalization, whatever.)


Here's a list of some costs, not comprehensive:

-Some kids are ADHD or Autistic sensitive.  Some jurisdictions are allowing waivers for these kids, some are making it very difficult (like LA County), and some do not allow a waiver (LA County did not allow waivers for anyone last year).
-For the younger children, they learn in part through facial expressions.  Remember all those articles about the importance of children with "face time"  For the hearing impaired as well, viewing the face is critical.
-They are just uncomfortable for many people.  If you dispute that, ask why Pelosi, Newsom, Fauci, and other politicians/health experts were caught cheating when the cameras weren't rolling.
-There is a communicative/societal value in seeing people's faces.  We know for example movies and television programs and news programs filmed during the pandemic got waivers.  If there wasn't any value to it, why aren't films/tv/news filmed during the pandemic filmed with masks on?  It shouldn't make a difference, correct?
-There's the environmental damage from masks.  The non-cloth ones take a long time to degrade.  Remember when people were freaking out about plastic straws and plastic bags.  Those masks are supposed to be single use.  Even the N95s pre pandemic were supposed to be single use.  The environmental damage is huge, and would be worse if people wore them correctly.

So let's not pretend that masks are a cost free solution.  Granted, the cost is relatively lower than lockdowns.  But a balance still has to be taken of the costs against the benefits.  On the benefits end, Hound has articulated that there seems to be very little benefit for kids wearing masks in schools, plus we know we are out of step with the other western countries that don't require it.  Given that, unless the pro mask side can demonstrate some beneficial evidence that outweighs the costs, they shouldn't be required in schools.

Now I'm not saying that masks should never be required anywhere.  I supported pre vaccine the indoor masks mandates.  But we need to have a discussion about better masking and where it should be required (airplanes yes, schools absolutely not. supermarkets it depends what approach we need to the pandemic and if believe Gottlieb or the UK)


----------



## dad4

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't necessarily think they should.
> 
> But in order to make an argument for masks in my local community/school district, I'd like to be able to balance the harms.
> 
> So on one hand, we have a very, very small percentage of kids that have died from COVID.  So obviously very, very limited benefit to wearing masks, but I'm sure you'll concede nonetheless that there is some very, very small benefit.
> 
> What do we have to balance that against?  What is the harm that is caused to kids by having them wear masks?  That's what I'm asking.
> 
> Usually, when we talk about these things at school board meetings or community chat groups, the anti-mask people just keep coming back to personal freedom.  They can't cite to any cognizable, harmful effects from wearing masks.  So I stupidly came to a soccer forum to ask if someone could cite to anything.  In my defense, these threads comprise thousands of posts, some of which are interesting evaluations of legitimate studies, so I assumed that somewhere down the line, someone could identify whether any kids had suffered harmful effects (illness, death, hospitalization, whatever.)


I am not aware of any studies demonstrating that masks cause harm to anyone.

There was one study that tried to measure CO2 buildup and lack of oxygen due to rebreathing the air between the mask and the face.  That study has been withdrawn.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am not aware of any studies demonstrating that masks cause harm to anyone.
> 
> There was one study that tried to measure CO2 buildup and lack of oxygen due to rebreathing the air between the mask and the face.  That study has been withdrawn.


Yes there are incidents like this that happen when you try to mask people exercising.  I myself, remember, collapsed servicing my car while I had a fever in the hot sun after a long day having to wait for it outside in the heat.  Not a typical response but it represents the limits of masking in extreme circumstances









						Rio Rancho runner collapses during masked cross country competition
					

RIO RANCHO, N.M. (KRQE) – It was a dramatic finish for a Rio Rancho cross country runner at this year’s New Mexico state championship. A senior with at least five years of competitive ru…




					www.krqe.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I am not aware of any studies demonstrating that masks cause harm to anyone.
> 
> There was one study that tried to measure CO2 buildup and lack of oxygen due to rebreathing the air between the mask and the face.  That study has been withdrawn.


Just a point for reference -- exhaled air is what keeps people alive in CPR.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes there are incidents like this that happen when you try to mask people exercising.  I myself, remember, collapsed servicing my car while I had a fever in the hot sun after a long day having to wait for it outside in the heat.  Not a typical response but it represents the limits of masking in extreme circumstances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rio Rancho runner collapses during masked cross country competition
> 
> 
> RIO RANCHO, N.M. (KRQE) – It was a dramatic finish for a Rio Rancho cross country runner at this year’s New Mexico state championship. A senior with at least five years of competitive ru…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.krqe.com


Submit to Southern California Journal of Anecdotes.


----------



## watfly

Anecdotal story.  We don't require our kids to be masked in situations where they can maintain 6 feet of distance at our youth clubhouses.  Our counselors who are masked do a great job of maintaining space.  Kids are only required to a mask indoors if the 6 feet spacing can't be maintained.  We've been open since June 2020, have there been infections? yes.  Have their been outbreaks? no.  Kids were likely infected outside of our clubhouses where precautions can't be maintained.

Can every school provide 6 feet of spacing, probably not, but many can.  Where there is a will there is way to maintain spacing if you consider all the indoor and outdoor space available.  Furthermore, the clear plastic being used in many schools is a barrier that can redirect the plume, since it's non-permeable likely better than masks.  (yes I'm aware of the plastic barrier study) Unfortunately, many adults out of their own selfishness are F it, just make the kids where masks.

If you remember when the masking policy was first recommended it was 6 feet or a mask.  Like everything else the goalposts keep moving.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Why is Pfizer vaccine called Comirnaty?*

The meaning behind the name 'Comirnaty' Comirnaty is an agglomeration of the words “Covid-19 immunity” and “mRNA,” the latter indicating the technology that makes the vaccine work. As a whole, the word is intended to evoke “community,” a Brand Institute executive said.

Koom-bah-yah!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You do realize that you are trying to tell me how to interpret a parameter in a 2 variable differential equation?
> 
> Ok.  Go back to telling me how easy the math is...


Is that why you ignore SARS-1 and MERS outcomes.  That's easy math.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Anecdotal story.  We don't require our kids to be masked in situations where they can maintain 6 feet of distance at our youth clubhouses.  Our counselors who are masked do a great job of maintaining space.  Kids are only required to a mask indoors if the 6 feet spacing can't be maintained.  We've been open since June 2020, have there been infections? yes.  Have their been outbreaks? no.  Kids were likely infected outside of our clubhouses where precautions can't be maintained.
> 
> Can every school provide 6 feet of spacing, probably not, but many can.  Where there is a will there is way to maintain spacing if you consider all the indoor and outdoor space available.  Furthermore, the clear plastic being used in many schools is a barrier that can redirect the plume, since it's non-permeable likely better than masks.  (yes I'm aware of the plastic barrier study) Unfortunately, many adults out of their own selfishness are F it, just make the kids where masks.
> 
> If you remember when the masking policy was first recommended it was 6 feet or a mask.  Like everything else the goalposts keep moving.


Did you want them to set a permanent policy based on what we knew in April 2020?  We’d still be running around, scrubbing everything with lysol every 2 hours.

Of course the policy changes.  The world is changing, and our understanding of covid is changing.  The rules will change, too.


----------



## Grace T.

Read past the headline: there is no evidence the Delta is causing more severe disease in children.









						Pediatric Hospitals Are At Their Breaking Points as COVID-19 Surges
					

It's a tragic new chapter of the pandemic




					time.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Did you want them to set a permanent policy based on what we knew in April 2020?  We’d still be running around, scrubbing everything with lysol every 2 hours.
> 
> Of course the policy changes.  The world is changing, and our understanding of covid is changing.  The rules will change, too.


I'm OK with policy changing based on science.  What scientific study said it has to be 6 feet and mask? 

It seems to me the science for spacing over masks has only gotten stronger.  Same with outdoors over masks.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Read past the headline: there is no evidence the Delta is causing more severe disease in children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pediatric Hospitals Are At Their Breaking Points as COVID-19 Surges
> 
> 
> It's a tragic new chapter of the pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com


From your article:

“Use the mitigation measures we know work,” O’Leary says. “Wear masks when you’re around other people, particularly in enclosed spaces….Avoid places where lots of people are congregating.”

It’s good advice.


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> Lets start with this.
> 
> With 72 million kids and only 350 deaths....you tell us why you think this group should mask up.
> 
> What risk do they have that would justify wearing masks?


The child death numbers have gone up. I believe the current number is more like 489 covid deaths from infections in the 0-17 age range. 

Also, the only infection outcomes that matter aren't simply binary - alive or dead.  There's no category yet that is publicly reporting on long term damage rates.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> From your article:
> 
> “Use the mitigation measures we know work,” O’Leary says. “Wear masks when you’re around other people, particularly in enclosed spaces….Avoid places where lots of people are congregating.”
> 
> It’s good advice.


It ultimately depends on whether we are going to pursue the UK strategy or the Gottlieb strategy, because otherwise there is no goalpost to measure.  Roadrunner has the right question: we need to know long term damage numbers to kids, long term damage number to vaccinated adults to be able to decide.  If the UK approach is correct, then no because you want the illness to circulate to develop natural immunity.

Otherwise, if you are looking just at deaths in kids, it's an argument to do this every flu season and every RSV season.  And I can personally attest, as a person currently suffering long RSV, long RSV and flu happen as well.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> The child death numbers have gone up. I believe the current number is more like 489 covid deaths from infections in the 0-17 age range.
> 
> Also, the only infection outcomes that matter aren't simply binary - alive or dead.  There's no category yet that is publicly reporting on long term damage rates.


Not in San Diego County, 2 deaths in 0-19 age range and it has been that way for months.


----------



## Grace T.

Israel might finally be slowing down....maybe.









						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## what-happened

Roadrunner said:


> The child death numbers have gone up. I believe the current number is more like 489 covid deaths from infections in the 0-17 age range.
> 
> Also, the only infection outcomes that matter aren't simply binary - alive or dead.  *There's no category yet that is publicly reporting on long term damage rates.*


Same goes for long term vaccine effects on children.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Did you want them to set a permanent policy based on what we knew in April 2020?  We’d still be running around, scrubbing everything with lysol every 2 hours.
> 
> Of course the policy changes.  The world is changing, and our understanding of covid is changing.  The rules will change, too.


Sometimes it changes, changes back and changes again despite the data and science staying the same.


----------



## Desert Hound

Roadrunner said:


> The child death numbers have gone up. I believe the current number is more like 489 covid deaths from infections in the 0-17 age range.


Let us assume that is correct. Now divide that number into 72 million. Ask dad if with a population of 72 million there is a difference if the number is 350 or 489.

If you think there is, you have a serious issue regarding math/data.

If you look at either of those numbers and say, whew...this age group has zero risk, you win the prize.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> Sometimes it changes, changes back and changes again despite the data and science staying the same.


I believe the field responsible for studying that is known as Political Science.


----------



## Roadrunner

what-happened said:


> Same goes for long term vaccine effects on children.


Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)

What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient....

Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)
> 
> What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient....
> 
> Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.


A decent summary from what we know about kids under 17, with the caveat that the Delta was not very present during this time period.  98% fully recovered by 8 weeks....which is roughly on par with RSV (as I mentioned I am suffering from long RSV now (7 weeks out) and my son suffered from long RSV when he was in preschool (4 months)).  What we really, of course, want to know is not just a persistent cough, but the "long COVID" that we hear in the news where the person is debilitated.  Still, that is a pool somewhat less than 2%, and hitting the olders harder than youngers.









						Long COVID-19 rare in children, study says
					






					www.cidrap.umn.edu


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Roadrunner said:


> Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)
> 
> What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient....
> 
> Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.


My brother and his wife caught covid early on, in March or April of 2020.  Both are retired active outdoorspeople living in Alaska.  He is the volunteer staff civil engineer at Arctic Valley Ski Area near Anchorage, and she raises, shows, and runs sled dogs.  He reported that after their recovery they had a few weeks of shortness of breath, but that eventually went away.

They have also both been vaccinated.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Fair summation of our respective beliefs. I do note, however, that back in law school I dated someone (quiet seriously) who was a student at the div school. Though my majors were Soviet studies and Econ, In undergrad I spent quite a few courses taking comparative religion classes. I spent many a Friday night at the div school in the lounge having riveting discussions with people of various religions but the traditional Christians were the most interesting, particularly since I knew the history of the early church and the early gospels backwards and forwards and could dissect their arguments fairly easily. Our conversations bore a striking resemblance to our conversations…eerily so.  My favorite personally was the Mormon plates discussion one blizzard evening.  The explanation I always got for why I was wrong is “you don’t understand”. Again, whether it be Afghanistan or 2008 or covid, the experts, for a variety of reasons, have an amazing ability to miss the forest through the trees.


Look up mythos versus ethos.  Mythos is those concepts adherents to a given religion believe, whether it is golden tablets, being chosen people, magic stones, or eternal pie in the sky when you die.  Ethos is what those adherents do, especially to those who don't share the same mythos.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)
> 
> What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient....
> 
> Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.


What are the long term impacts of delayed/interrupted socialization and education?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> What are the long term impacts of delayed/interrupted socialization and education?


Victims started believing whatever crap came down their internet and twitter feeds.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Look up mythos versus ethos.  Mythos is those concepts adherents to a given religion believe, whether it is golden tablets, being chosen people, magic stones, or eternal pie in the sky when you die.  Ethos is what those adherents do, especially to those who don't share the same mythos.


Here I'll give you a concession (maybe you caught me on a good day, maybe there's just a better vibe off of you...I dunno).  My bias is to care about mythos more than ethos because my organizing principle is to care about truth above all things (even the truth if hurtful to people) than ethos (is which is basically feelings).  I'll further concede that with respect to religion (as opposed to politics and policy) that it should be concerned about feelings, because that's one of it's functions and raison d'etres

p.s. I thought anecdotes weren't data???


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Victims started believing whatever crap came down their internet and twitter feeds.


Yep the fear porn was overwhelming and created the myopathy that lead to really poor policy decisions.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Here I'll give you a concession (maybe you caught me on a good day, maybe there's just a better vibe off of you...I dunno).  My bias is to care about mythos more than ethos because my organizing principle is to care about truth above all things (even the truth if hurtful to people) than ethos (is which is basically feelings).  I'll further concede that with respect to religion (as opposed to politics and policy) that it should be concerned about feelings, because that's one of it's functions and raison d'etres
> 
> p.s. I thought anecdotes weren't data???


That's true.


----------



## what-happened

Roadrunner said:


> Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)
> 
> *What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient.*...
> 
> Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.


It's obvious that you have picked a side, and that's fine. Nice try with the condescending remark.  As is with these types of forums, rarely do posters really know what the other posters do for a living.  

Generally speaking, vaccines take years to develop.  It's obvious where we are right now in the course of this pandemic (if you want to call it that).  Not everyone in the community agrees with how these vaccines have been developed.  There is no proof that there won't be long term effects on young children..none.  This vaccine has been so politicized that scientific disagreement and medical disagreement isn't even considered.  It's why so many in the medical community are caring for patients as they see fit with much success.  Get your advice from TV or get your advice from your trusted family physician.  Up to you.  

Get the jab, I have.  My offspring will not get it.  There is statistically no need for certain demographics to consider getting vaccinated, especially if they've already had it.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> It's obvious that you have picked a side, and that's fine. Nice try with the condescending remark.  As is with these types of forums, rarely do posters really know what the other posters do for a living.
> 
> Generally speaking, vaccines take years to develop.  It's obvious where we are right now in the course of this pandemic (if you want to call it that).  Not everyone in the community agrees with how these vaccines have been developed.  There is no proof that there won't be long term effects on young children..none.  This vaccine has been so politicized that scientific disagreement and medical disagreement isn't even considered.  It's why so many in the medical community are caring for patients as they see fit with much success.  Get your advice from TV or get your advice from your trusted family physician.  Up to you.
> 
> Get the jab, I have.  My offspring will not get it.  There is statistically no need for certain demographics to consider getting vaccinated, especially if they've already had it.


I see you have picked your side.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I see you have picked your side.


I have, absolutely.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> It's obvious that you have picked a side, and that's fine. Nice try with the condescending remark.  As is with these types of forums, rarely do posters really know what the other posters do for a living.
> 
> Generally speaking, vaccines take years to develop.  It's obvious where we are right now in the course of this pandemic (if you want to call it that).  Not everyone in the community agrees with how these vaccines have been developed.  There is no proof that there won't be long term effects on young children..none.  This vaccine has been so politicized that scientific disagreement and medical disagreement isn't even considered.  It's why so many in the medical community are caring for patients as they see fit with much success.  Get your advice from TV or get your advice from your trusted family physician.  Up to you.
> 
> Get the jab, I have.  My offspring will not get it.  There is statistically no need for certain demographics to consider getting vaccinated, especially if they've already had it.


Thanks for sharing


----------



## crush

espola said:


> *I see you have picked your side.*


The only side I have picked is the same side what-happenned picked.  We pick the side of the kids!!! ((nice catch K & S)).  Dude, meaning Espola and not K & S, why you so mean to the kids and their parents?  What an asshole!!  You have zero children playing soccer but you come hear to preach 24/7.   You peach hate, violence, division and lying.   You argue with parents with kids playing soccer and to fight to have our kids masked all day at school and forever for that matter.  Seriously, you creep me out 100%.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> We pick the side of the kids asshole.


This sentence needs a comma, right? Otherwise, it's painfully visual and likely illegal.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> This sentence needs a comma, right? Otherwise, it's painfully visual and likely illegal.


Can't un-see it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Victims started believing whatever crap came down their internet and twitter feeds.


…and got vaxxed anyway!!


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Can't un-see it.


You made me look, and now I agree.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> You made me look, and now I agree.


To be fair, when the kids are at that diaper age have to pick away and wipe away and scrub away and its just same old same old.


----------



## Roadrunner

what-happened said:


> Generally speaking, vaccines take years to develop.  ...
> 
> This vaccine has been so politicized.  ...


I thought that even on this forum there would be agreement that the notion people would become magnetized as a result of the vaccine is a pretty wild idea.  I often wonder the genesis of some of the crazy ideas that are fed into the streams of information out there.   

I definitely agree with you that the vaccine, and really anything about covid, has, unfortunately, become politicized in this country.  It seems silly to me.  I don't subscribe to the idea that we should divide ourselves in "camps" or take sides. How many sides or camps are there, and what is their purpose?  Anyway, there's risk in everything, and I am sure that everyone would like to be making decisions with the best possible information. So, here we are on a soccer forum!  Haha. 

Yes, it takes a long time to develop effective vaccines.  The Pfizer and Moderna vaccine technology has been a long time coming, and rests on quite a bit of research.  So this wasn't overnight at all.  The reliance on mRNA combined with advances in understanding protein structure (and getting the virus sequence early) all contributed to an amazingly quick timeline to the start of the clinical trials.  SARS-CoV1 experience and lots of coronavirus research was also important.  I know moderna had planned for a different initial vaccine, but quickly shifted when SARS-CoV2 hit.


----------



## dad4

dad4 said:


> From your article:
> 
> “Use the mitigation measures we know work,” O’Leary says. “Wear masks when you’re around other people, particularly in enclosed spaces….Avoid places where lots of people are congregating.”
> 
> It’s good advice.





Grace T. said:


> It ultimately depends on whether we are going to pursue the UK strategy or the Gottlieb strategy, because otherwise there is no goalpost to measure.  Roadrunner has the right question: we need to know long term damage numbers to kids, long term damage number to vaccinated adults to be able to decide.  If the UK approach is correct, then no because you want the illness to circulate to develop natural immunity.
> 
> Otherwise, if you are looking just at deaths in kids, it's an argument to do this every flu season and every RSV season.  And I can personally attest, as a person currently suffering long RSV, long RSV and flu happen as well.


No, it really doesn’t depend on that at all.   Nice words, and lots of them, as always. 

But not a lick of logic in it.   Masks and distance being a good idea does not depend on whether NHS or CDC has the better strategy.  (why would it?)

but, along those logical lines:

Do you want that hamster to die or not?  Then go and play the cello!  After all, that hamster needs goalposts.  Without the cello, he’d have nothing to live for.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> No, it really doesn’t depend on that at all.   Nice words, and lots of them, as always.
> 
> But not a lick of logic in it.   Masks and distance being a good idea does not depend on whether NHS or CDC has the better strategy.  (why would it?)
> 
> but, along those logical lines:
> 
> Do you want that hamster to die or not?  Then go and play the cello!  After all, that hamster needs goalposts.  Without the cello, he’d have nothing to live for.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Did you want them to set a permanent policy based on what we knew in April 2020?  We’d still be running around, scrubbing everything with lysol every 2 hours.
> 
> Of course the policy changes.  The world is changing, and our understanding of covid is changing.  The rules will change, too.


The outcomes of respiratory diseases remain the same while unscientific policies ignore those empirical outcomes and deny our rights to due process.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> The outcomes of respiratory diseases remain the same while unscientific policies ignore those empirical outcomes and deny our rights to due process.


Outcomes are the same?

So, you're ok with Levine and Cuomo putting known covid patients back in nursing homes.   After all, the outcome is the same, so it can't have done any harm, right?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> The child death numbers have gone up. I believe the current number is more like 489 covid deaths from infections in the 0-17 age range.
> 
> Also, the only infection outcomes that matter aren't simply binary - alive or dead.  There's no category yet that is publicly reporting on long term damage rates.


Do you have a link for the rising child death numbers given we are now 20 months in to this scamdemic.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Outcomes are the same?
> 
> So, you're ok with Levine and Cuomo putting known covid patients back in nursing homes.   After all, the outcome is the same, so it can't have done any harm, right?


Hah!  Remember how well putting known SARS and MERS patients back in nursing homes worked in the past?  While shutting down the economy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Long term effects of vaccines?  Like reducing infection rates or serious infections?  There are data regarding vaccine reactions, which aren't really seen past about 2 months post vaccination.  (The data collected in the Pfizer clinical trials for 5-11 yr olds has not been released.  There is data out there for short term reactions to the vaccine for 12-17.).   A study out from Israel came out this week analyzing risks for Pfizer vaccine vs COVID-19.  (And I am going to call it Pfizer vaccine because their trade name is weird.  Moderna's spike-vax is so much better.)
> 
> What long term impacts from vaccines are you referring to?  Please don't tell me you think they can magnetize the recipient....
> 
> Many posters here are putting COVID-19 outcomes as alive vs dead, but survivors can experience other undesirable outcomes too.  Knowing those numbers could make risk calculations different.  *The long covid data is less accessible for a variety of reasons.*


Gotta love EUA's.  You wouldn't have to wait for "the long covid data" if your weren't grossly ignoring the past MERS and SARS-1 data while comparing this SARS event to itself.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Look up mythos versus ethos.  Mythos is those concepts adherents to a given religion believe, whether it is golden tablets, being chosen people, magic stones, or eternal pie in the sky when you die.  Ethos is what those adherents do, especially to those who don't share the same mythos.


You're babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Not in San Diego County, 2 deaths in 0-19 age range and it has been that way for months.


Going to the Del Mar Race Track today.  Unmasked.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

In Israel, vaccinated individuals had 27 times higher risk of symptomatic COVID infection compared to those with natural immunity from prior COVID disease [95%CI:13-57, adjusted for time of vaccine/disease]. No COVID deaths in either group.

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

Martin Kulldorff
@MartinKulldorff
Professor Harvard Medical School. Disease surveillance methods. Infectious disease outbreaks. Vaccine safety. Free SaTScan, TreeScan and RSequential software.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> Do you have a link for the rising child death numbers given we are now 20 months in to this scamdemic.


The data is on the CDC website.  The Johns Hopkins website also tracks data, though the specific numbers I cited were from the CDC data on demographics of covid deaths in the US.  A number of states have changed the frequency of their reporting, so just keep on eye on that as you look at/ analyze the data.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> The data is on the CDC website.  The Johns Hopkins website also tracks data, though the specific numbers I cited were from the CDC data on demographics of covid deaths in the US.  A number of states have changed the frequency of their reporting, so just keep on eye on that as you look at/ analyze the data.


Okay.  I've seen that data.  Sounds like we should have employed the current masking policies for children at least 30 years ago. Influenza has killed many more children than the Corona virus.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> MERS and SARS-1 data.


SARS:  8098 confirmed cases worldwide, 774 deaths, 8 laboratory confirmed US cases
MERS:  2547 confirmed cases worldwide, 886 deaths, 2 laboratory confirmed US cases


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> SARS:  8098 confirmed cases worldwide, 774 deaths, 8 laboratory confirmed US cases
> MERS:  2547 confirmed cases worldwide, 886 deaths, 2 laboratory confirmed US cases


PCR tested?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Supreme Court Finally Curbs CDC’s Total Power

By a 6-3 vote, then, we finally have a ray of hope that the Supreme Court of the US will not be wholly silent as American liberties and limits on government slip away entirely under the cover of public health. Finally the CDC has encountered some pushback after a year and a half of exercising powers over the American population never before experienced, and few would have imagined possible only two years ago.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> PCR tested?


Probably.  WHO, CDC maintain running info pages.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Probably.  WHO, CDC maintain running info pages.


MERS bound a different cell entry receptor.  Had ~30% fatality rate.  More likely to go systemic as I recall but been awhile.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> MERS bound a different cell entry receptor.  Had ~30% fatality rate.  More likely to go systemic as I recall but been awhile.


Sounds like we could have benefited from mandates with the Corona caused MERS back then too.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> Gotta love EUA's.  You wouldn't have to wait for "the long covid data" if your weren't grossly ignoring the past MERS and SARS-1 data while comparing this SARS event to itself.


Which data from MERS or SARS-CoV1 am I ignoring?  And why is whatever data you are referencing relevant?  SARS-coV2


EvilGoalie 21 said:


> MERS bound a different cell entry receptor.  Had ~30% fatality rate.  More likely to go systemic as I recall but been awhile.


The MERS genome is about 50% similar to SARS-CoV2, whatever that's worth here too.  I'm not sure exactly what data bruddah thinks is missing, or being ignored, or relevant.  There are also coronaviruses that cause just cold symptoms.

There was an attempt at a SARS 1 vaccine, but by the time the group had it ready, the SARS 1 outbreak was a look already tailing off so they couldn't do clinical trials.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> Sounds like we could have benefited from mandates with the Corona caused MERS back then too.


It was largely confined to countries in the middle east, and, as evident from the case numbers, this virus thankfully did not cause a pandemic.  I do know someone personally who was lucky to survive MERS. It is not a virus you'd wish to experience.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Roadrunner said:


> It was largely confined to countries in the middle east, and, as evident from the case numbers, this virus thankfully did not cause a pandemic.  I do know someone personally who was lucky to survive MERS. It is not a virus you'd wish to experience.


Actually, I know somebody as well.  It was touch and go.  I believe there were mandates/quarantine procedures put in place for American service personel in the middle east.  maybe more general travel restrictions as well.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Which data from MERS or SARS-CoV1 am I ignoring?  And why is whatever data you are referencing relevant?  SARS-coV2


The below is relevant data



EvilGoalie 21 said:


> SARS:  8098 confirmed cases worldwide, 774 deaths, 8 laboratory confirmed US cases
> MERS:  2547 confirmed cases worldwide, 886 deaths, 2 laboratory confirmed US cases


It is relevant because both were caused by the Corona Virus. 



Roadrunner said:


> The MERS genome is about 50% similar to SARS-CoV2, whatever that's worth here too.  I'm not sure exactly what data bruddah thinks is missing, or being ignored, or relevant.  There are also coronaviruses that cause just cold symptoms.
> 
> There was an attempt at a SARS 1 vaccine, but by the time the group had it ready, the SARS 1 outbreak was a look already tailing off so they couldn't do clinical trials.


The data was never missing.  It was simply ignored and thus the masses were easily manipulated to believe we were dealing with something completely new and, Lockdowns were the only way to go.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> It was largely confined to countries in the middle east, and, as evident from the case numbers, this virus thankfully did not cause a pandemic.  I do know someone personally who was lucky to survive MERS. It is not a virus you'd wish to experience.


Which one is?  And if we weren't hyper-PCR testing back then how would we have known if thousands of service members who served in the Middle East didn't bring MERS back to the states that presented as the common cold or flu?  Probably just burned itself out like other Corona virus induced diseases that our immune systems bagged and tagged.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> The below is relevant data
> 
> 
> 
> It is relevant because both were caused by the Corona Virus.
> 
> The data was never missing.  It was simply ignored and thus the masses were easily manipulated to believe we were dealing with something completely new and, Lockdowns were the only way to go.


SARS-cov1, SARS-cov2, and MERS are three different viruses.  There are a lot of viruses out there, including a lot that are in the coronavirus family.  These viruses do share some similarities, but are definitely different.  Check out their sequences and encoded proteins, mechanism of entry, etc yourself if you are not convinced.  The data is published and much is accessible to the general public.  Not all retroviruses are HIV1, not all rhabdoviridae are rabies viruses, and not all picornavirus are the poliovirus.

But yes, it does seem that people can be easily manipulated.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Which one is?  And if we weren't hyper-PCR testing back then how would we have known if thousands of service members who served in the Middle East didn't bring MERS back to the states that presented as the common cold or flu?  Probably just burned itself out like other Corona virus induced diseases that our immune systems bagged and tagged.


halftime at el traffico.  the difference between several hundred with an IFR 0.3 and 4.5 million or whatever it is now with an IFR .02 is probably not attributable to sample error.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## espola

Outbreak Associated with SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta)...
					

COVID-19 outbreak associated with an unvaccinated infected teacher in an elementary school from May–June 2021 in Marin County, California.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Mosafie

It is indisputable at this point that vaccinated individuals are must less likely to be hospitalized have complications compared to unvaccinated individual.

As a healthcare worker I have seen plenty of patients get sicks then call me saying they should have been vaccinated. I have seen strokes, lung transplants, kidney failures, chronic fatigue. People that simoly dont function normally any more.

Everyone thinks their natural immune system is just fine until they get sick have a stroke, have kidney failure, or need a lung transplant.

All healthy people under the age of 60.

I am a lot more direct now. Stop being a stupid take the vaccine so you wont call me when its too late.

Sure you might survive but you might also have a stroke and have your kids changing your diapers for the rest of your life. Thats a faith worst than death.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Outbreak Associated with SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta)...
> 
> 
> COVID-19 outbreak associated with an unvaccinated infected teacher in an elementary school from May–June 2021 in Marin County, California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


one of the con websites (I forget who) tracked down the teacher for comment. Apparently claimed wasn’t concerned because the kids were masked.


----------



## Grace T.

Mosafie said:


> It is indisputable at this point that vaccinated individuals are must less likely to be hospitalized have complications compared to unvaccinated individual.
> 
> As a healthcare worker I have seen plenty of patients get sicks then call me saying they should have been vaccinated. I have seen strokes, lung transplants, kidney failures, chronic fatigue. People that simoly dont function normally any more.
> 
> Everyone thinks their natural immune system is just fine until they get sick have a stroke, have kidney failure, or need a lung transplant.
> 
> All healthy people under the age of 60.
> 
> I am a lot more direct now. Stop being a stupid take the vaccine so you wont call me when its too late.
> 
> Sure you might survive but you might also have a stroke and have your kids changing your diapers for the rest of your life. Thats a faith worst than death.


The argument isn’t only vaxxed v unvaxxed. The other argument is whether those previously infected with the Rona have sufficient protection and therefore don’t need the vax, need only a booster (and if so when). or need the whole course of treatment.  The info that’s come out seems to indicate natural immunity is fairly robust. But of course if you haven’t had a symptomatic case, you should get vaxxed.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The argument isn’t only vaxxed v unvaxxed. The other argument is whether those previously infected with the Rona have sufficient protection and therefore don’t need the vax, need only a booster (and if so when). or need the whole course of treatment.  The info that’s come out seems to indicate natural immunity is fairly robust. But of course if you haven’t had a symptomatic case, you should get vaxxed.


 Btw it’s unlikely the health experts will come out at this point and say they goofed with natural immunity. Such an admission means that after the elderly were vaxxed, they probably killed a ton of people (both in the us and abroad) by not prioritizing those who had not had the Rona first.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> one of the con websites (I forget who) tracked down the teacher for comment. Apparently claimed wasn’t concerned because the kids were masked.


Blame the messaging.  Its shameful.  There was so much focus on masking the healthy that we ignored the sick.

The message should have been that masks provide limited protection and if you're sick, masking your self and others is likely not going prevent transmission.  Stay home and quarantine.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Blame the messaging.  Its shameful.  There was so much focus on masking the healthy that we ignored the sick.
> 
> The message should have been that masks provide limited protection and if you're sick, masking your self and others is likely not going prevent transmission.  Stay home and quarantine.


The messaging was made considerably more difficult by the considerable number of unqualified people putting out disinformation.

The simple message was "My mask protects you; your mask protects me.". That message came out in April 2020.  

Unfortunately, that simple message was muddled by 16 months of bogus arguments from various anti mask zealots, some of whom have the gall to complain about it now.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> The messaging was made considerably more difficult by the considerable number of unqualified people putting out disinformation.
> 
> The simple message was "My mask protects you; your mask protects me.". That message came out in April 2020.
> 
> Unfortunately, that simple message was muddled by 16 months of bogus arguments from various anti mask zealots, some of whom have the gall to complain about it now.


Like when Fauci said we didn’t need them and when Pelosi broadcast from China Town?  Then Donald doubled down…..smh


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The messaging was made considerably more difficult by the considerable number of unqualified people putting out disinformation.
> 
> The simple message was "My mask protects you; your mask protects me.". That message came out in April 2020.
> 
> Unfortunately, that simple message was muddled by 16 months of bogus arguments from various anti mask zealots, some of whom have the gall to complain about it now.


We can argue which has been more problematic, overselling or underselling masks.  Id argue its the overselling which gave people a false sense of security like the teacher in question.  Stop selling a mask as the panacea of protection.  How about the truth that masks only provide limited protection.

Regardless of your position on masks, the biggest problem with the policies are they treat healthy people and sick people virtually the same.  Just FYI you cant get Covid from someone that doesnt have it.  I dont know why thats such a diifficult concept for many to comprehend.  The media and the talking heads would have you believe that if you go to a crowded place indoors without a mask you're going to get Covid.  Sorry but thats not how it works.

If your infected or think your infected stay home.  Dont go out in public thinking a mask is going to protect others from your virus.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> We can argue which has been more problematic, overselling or underselling masks.  Id argue its the overselling which gave people a false sense of security like the teacher in question.  Stop selling a mask as the panacea of protection.  How about the truth that masks only provide limited protection.
> 
> Regardless of your position on masks, the biggest problem with the policies are they treat healthy people and sick people virtually the same.  Just FYI you cant get Covid from someone that doesnt have it.  I dont know why thats such a diifficult concept for many to comprehend.  The media and the talking heads would have you believe that if you go to a crowded place indoors without a mask you're going to get Covid.  Sorry but thats not how it works.
> 
> If your infected or think your infected stay home.  Dont go out in public thinking a mask is going to protect others from your virus.


Most of the mask messages I have seen have been in the “reduces but does not eliminate” category.   (The others are straight up misinformation, like you see from Grace, Hound, or Dizzy.)

Not sure where you are seeing people say “mask = zero risk.”, but I completely agree that it is a dangerous oversimplification.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 11536


Way price overkill.  has a bunch of antifungal drugs (ie athlete's foot) and deodorants = $ and won't do anything to a virus.  Home recipe for anti-viral much cheaper.  70% ethanol, 0.05% bleach.  Uhhh.....for external, not internal, surface use.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Most of the mask messages I have seen have been in the “reduces but does not eliminate” category.   (The others are straight up misinformation, like you see from Grace, Hound, or Dizzy.)
> 
> Not sure where you are seeing people say “mask = zero risk.”, but I completely agree that it is a dangerous oversimplification.


The weight that the media, the medical talking heads, health policy leaders and politicians have put on mask wearing overwhelms any suggestion that masks "reduce but does not eliminate".


----------



## crush

I got to spend time yesterday with my wife's family.  All have been jabbed except my wife and I.  It got heated at the pool.  I feel it's important to share from real life stories from real life.  Backdrop: One is Athletic Director of a big HS in the IE, one is school counselor and two work for the county. Grandpa & Grandma are retired and both have Alzheimers.  We were all chilling and somehow the conversation came up about where my dd is going to go to college.  Success on that side is college or bust.  We said it's been tough for the 2022s because of Politics & the War that were currently in.  Mr. AD decided to chime in.  Sister in law new boyfriend btw and he thinks he knows what's best.  Dude acted like a health professional instead of a sports guy.

AD: Why won;t dd get jabbed
Crush: You should ask her
Crush: Why can;t she play soccer in college without the Jab
AD: Its note safe to have unvax person on the field
Crush: What did you just say?  These players are super healthy and no one is going to die who is healthy.
AD:  What about the 53 year old ref?
Crush:  You have to be kidding me, right?  I thought ref is vaccinated?  What is he afraid of?
AD:  We have to protect everyone and if your dd plays, she can infect those on the field
((Crush's wife comes over and gives me that look and the reminder that we both agreed to not talk Jab at family get together))
Crush:  Tell you what Mr. AD.  When you lose your job and have nowhere to work to pay your bills, let's talk.
Sister in law:  Well Crush, we all have to live with the choices we make and the consequences that come with those choices.
Crush:  100% agree.  I need to go take a walk to chill out.
Then the two county workers decided to chime in and give their two cents on why my wife and I and my dd are being super selfish and a danger to others as I was going to take my walk.  I did not respond and just went for a long walk.  It's sad after 24 years of marriage and love with my Outlaws that it's come down to Jab or no jab 

*Jab vs no Jab!!*


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> The weight that the media, the medical talking heads, health policy leaders and politicians have put on mask wearing overwhelms any suggestion that masks "reduce but does not eliminate".


They even used the words eliminate or control….at various times claiming (before that message switches to vaxxing) if everyone wears one we can control/eliminate in x weeks.  Even the recent mask studies have admitted they were oversold. A more proper message at the start of this would have been: hey they help a little to reduce cases particular indoors…they won’t protect you but wearing a mask might help that essential worker who needs to work.  The dilemma now is that the messaging is hard to do without admitting the vaccine isn’t all that they had hoped. To claim its misinformation the health authorities did and continue to do this is out and out lying.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> If your infected or think your infected stay home.


Very true.  I would add that it would have really helped if the virus was only spread by symptomatic people, and it was clear that their symptoms were attributable to the virus. If we had great testing (easy, accessible,fast) and contract tracing in place, it would be another way people to know whether they were likely to spread the virus.  With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.


----------



## crush

Roadrunner said:


> *If we had great testing (easy, accessible,fast) and contract tracing in place, it would be another way people to know whether they were likely to spread the virus.* * With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.*


Good morning Mr. Roadrunner.  If you feel sick, stay TFH, so easy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> They even used the words eliminate or control….at various times claiming (before that message switches to vaxxing) if everyone wears one we can control/eliminate in x weeks.  Even the recent mask studies have admitted they were oversold. A more proper message at the start of this would have been: hey they help a little to reduce cases particular indoors…they won’t protect you but wearing a mask might help that essential worker who needs to work.  The dilemma now is that the messaging is hard to do without admitting the vaccine isn’t all that they had hoped. To claim its misinformation the health authorities did and continue to do this is out and out lying.


They were trying to explain that reducing transmissibility lowers the threshold for herd immunity.   If you misunderstand what that sentence means, you’re going to feel lied to.  

They did start with talking about reducing transmission.  They got millions of idiots who thought they were scientists posting and reposting youtube videos with chain link fences and cans of WD40.  You were among them, and you all did real damage to public health.

You cant complain that the message was muddled if you were out there shouting over it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> They were trying to explain that reducing transmissibility lowers the threshold for herd immunity.   If you misunderstand what that sentence means, you’re going to feel lied to.
> 
> They did start with talking about reducing transmission.  They got millions of idiots who thought they were scientists posting and reposting youtube videos with chain link fences and cans of WD40.  You were among them, and you all did real damage to public health.
> 
> You cant complain that the message was muddled if you were out there shouting over it.


You are trying to explain away bad messaging with handwaiving. The fact you can’t accept the messaging was bad (and are blaming the critics of the messaging even when the recent mask studies have said mea cupla) should serve as a check on you for how far down the religion rabbit hole you actually are.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> Very true.  I would add that it would have really helped if the virus was only spread by symptomatic people, and it was clear that their symptoms were attributable to the virus. If we had great testing (easy, accessible,fast) and contract tracing in place, it would be another way people to know whether they were likely to spread the virus.  With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.


I note we still don’t know how much of a problem asymptomatic spread really is. There has yet for example to be a really good case study on it and most of the case studies are in the low symptomatic category like this teacher. The real problem may be with people who think “it’s allergies” or a cold and go out on public with low symptoms. And if asymptomatic spread is truly a threat, the chances of the current vaccines controlling this are next to zero because the viral loads there in a symptomatic person has are likely to be higher than a completely asymptomatic person. Finally if the uk/Denmark approach is correct it really shouldn’t matter at this point


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> They even used the words eliminate or control….at various times claiming (before that message switches to vaxxing) if everyone wears one we can control/eliminate in x weeks.  Even the recent mask studies have admitted they were oversold. A more proper message at the start of this would have been: hey they help a little to reduce cases particular indoors…they won’t protect you but wearing a mask might help that essential worker who needs to work.  The dilemma now is that the messaging is hard to do without admitting the vaccine isn’t all that they had hoped. To claim its misinformation the health authorities did and continue to do this is out and out lying.


Strawman.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Strawman.


I didn’t build that straw man. We on team reality didn’t come up with the messaging. The fact that team panic can’t even admit “yeah maybe the messaging was oversold” just shows how far the rabbit hole you guys are. If we can’t agree on that, when it just so obviously was the case, just shows we aren’t having a conversation about the science but just good old fashioned religion. 

Here’s the other thing that’s got me going “hmmm”. For the longest time team panic was cowed here. Eotl was driven from the field. Gk mom no where to be seen. He of many aliases stopped doing aliases. It was basically just dad and the 2 trolls particularly around June when we thought, and dad even said, it would be over in a couple weeks. But now the aliases are back and we. Have a bunch of newbies sympathetic to team panic and even Mac Dre is lurking about. Go figure.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You are trying to explain away bad messaging with handwaiving. The fact you can’t accept the messaging was bad (and are blaming the critics of the messaging even when the recent mask studies have said mea cupla) should serve as a check on you for how far down the religion rabbit hole you actually are.


Alice, are you ready?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I didn’t build that straw man. We on team reality didn’t come up with the messaging. The fact that team panic can’t even admit “yeah maybe the messaging was oversold” just shows how far the rabbit hole you guys are. If we can’t agree on that, when it just so obviously was the case, just shows we aren’t having a conversation about the science but just good old fashioned religion.
> 
> Here’s the other thing that’s got me going “hmmm”. For the longest time team panic was cowed here. Eotl was driven from the field. Gk mom no where to be seen. He of many aliases stopped doing aliases. It was basically just dad and the 2 trolls particularly around June when we thought, and dad even said, it would be over in a couple weeks. But now the aliases are back and we. Have a bunch of newbies sympathetic to team panic and even Mac Dre is lurking about. Go figure.


Great work Grace.  Your finally catching on.  Just wait until the mask come off the avatars, you will be shocked and i will not.  This was a three year sting operation that you will trip out on.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I didn’t build that straw man. We on team reality didn’t come up with the messaging. The fact that team panic can’t even admit “yeah maybe the messaging was oversold” just shows how far the rabbit hole you guys are. If we can’t agree on that, when it just so obviously was the case, just shows we aren’t having a conversation about the science but just good old fashioned religion.
> 
> Here’s the other thing that’s got me going “hmmm”. For the longest time team panic was cowed here. Eotl was driven from the field. Gk mom no where to be seen. He of many aliases stopped doing aliases. It was basically just dad and the 2 trolls particularly around June when we thought, and dad even said, it would be over in a couple weeks. But now the aliases are back and we. Have a bunch of newbies sympathetic to team panic and even Mac Dre is lurking about. Go figure.


"Team panic"?  Strawman.

You're pathetic.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.


And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy.  You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it.   The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns).  Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission.   Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions.  Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A.  How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers?  Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Team panic"?  Strawman.
> 
> You're pathetic.


You are a troll, an idiot and a liar


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy.  You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it.   The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns).  Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission.   Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions.  Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A.  How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers?  Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.


New Zealand and australia are showing us that against the delta even hard lockdowns with troops in the streets and months of that isn’t working.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> SARS-cov1, SARS-cov2, and MERS are three different viruses.  There are a lot of viruses out there, including a lot that are in the coronavirus family.  These viruses do share some similarities, but are definitely different.  Check out their sequences and encoded proteins, mechanism of entry, etc yourself if you are not convinced.  The data is published and much is accessible to the general public.  Not all retroviruses are HIV1, not all rhabdoviridae are rabies viruses, and not all picornavirus are the poliovirus.
> 
> But yes, it does seem that people can be easily manipulated.


What am I not convinced about given your post?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> halftime at el traffico.  the difference between several hundred with an IFR 0.3 and 4.5 million or whatever it is now with an IFR .02 is probably not attributable to sample error.


Oh?? Lol!


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> You are a troll, an idiot and a liar


You left off...kids forum lurker and pedo freak...I'm sure I've left off others as well.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Mosafie said:


> It is indisputable at this point that vaccinated individuals are must less likely to be hospitalized have complications compared to unvaccinated individual.
> 
> As a healthcare worker I have seen plenty of patients get sicks then call me saying they should have been vaccinated. I have seen strokes, lung transplants, kidney failures, chronic fatigue. People that simoly dont function normally any more.
> 
> Everyone thinks their natural immune system is just fine until they get sick have a stroke, have kidney failure, or need a lung transplant.
> 
> All healthy people under the age of 60.
> 
> I am a lot more direct now. Stop being a stupid take the vaccine so you wont call me when its too late.
> 
> Sure you might survive but you might also have a stroke and have your kids changing your diapers for the rest of your life. Thats a faith worst than death.


Yawn.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The argument isn’t only vaxxed v unvaxxed. The other argument is whether those previously infected with the Rona have sufficient protection and therefore don’t need the vax, need only a booster (and if so when). or need the whole course of treatment.  The info that’s come out seems to indicate natural immunity is fairly robust. But of course if you haven’t had a symptomatic case, you should get vaxxed.


Nearly 7 billion on planet earth and people question the immune system.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> They were trying to explain that reducing transmissibility lowers the threshold for herd immunity.   If you misunderstand what that sentence means, you’re going to feel lied to.
> 
> They did start with talking about reducing transmission.  They got millions of idiots who thought they were scientists posting and reposting youtube videos with chain link fences and cans of WD40.  You were among them, and you all did real damage to public health.
> 
> You cant complain that the message was muddled if you were out there shouting over it.


Like your case hyping.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> New Zealand and australia are showing us that against the delta even hard lockdowns with troops in the streets and months of that isn’t working.


Doesn't work and is punitive to the healthy and everything else non-Covid.  If these two islands can't do it its a fools errand to think it will work anywhere else.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Most of the mask messages I have seen have been in the “reduces but does not eliminate” category.   (The others are straight up misinformation, like you see from Grace, Hound, or Dizzy.)
> 
> Not sure where you are seeing people say “mask = zero risk.”, but I completely agree that it is a dangerous oversimplification.





dad4 said:


> Masks reduce the probability of transmission.  That’s all.  *They do not come close to eliminating transmission*.


Lol!  This is why you get clowned.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Very true.  I would add that it would have really helped if the virus was only spread by symptomatic people, and it was clear that their symptoms were attributable to the virus. If we had great testing (easy, accessible,fast) and contract tracing in place, it would be another way people to know whether they were likely to spread the virus.  *With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.*


Paul Alexander, et al., warn against overreaction to the Delta variant. Here’s their conclusion:

We are hearing discussions now about renewed lockdowns and masking etc. *due to the Delta variant which has emerged as one of the weakest in terms of lethality while being very transmissible. *This greatly concerns us. We are horrified by this prospect and we have shown you the actual data as it relates to Delta, and not the contrived drivel and unscientific nonsense spouted by the mainstream media and the public health experts. There is absolutely no good reason to reenter lockdowns and school closures or masking in response to the Delta variant. We find no evidence that this variant warrants masks in children. We leave you with the words of Donald Henderson:

“Experience has shown that communities faced with epidemics or other adverse events respond best and with the least anxiety when the *normal social functioning of the community is least disrupted*. Strong political and public health leadership to provide reassurance and to ensure that needed medical care services are provided are critical elements. If either is seen to be less than optimal, *a manageable epidemic could move toward catastrophe.”*


----------



## espola




----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy.  You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it.   The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns).  Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission.   Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions.  Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A.  How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers?  Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.


I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.

The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick".  The school districts already put out that message.  They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning:   "Time for school.  Come on, kids.  Get zapped."

Guess what?  Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway.  They think it is a cold, or allergies.  Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature.  And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people.  Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.

And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.
> 
> The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick".  The school districts already put out that message.  They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning:   "Time for school.  Come on, kids.  Get zapped."
> 
> Guess what?  Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway.  They think it is a cold, or allergies.  Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature.  And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people.  Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.
> 
> And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.


...and then what?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> View attachment 11544


...TONY FAUCI


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...and then what?


Better question is "what will you do when we don't"?

I don't see much evidence that Delta can spread within a masked vaccinated population.   The Martha's Vineyard experiment seems to say "no".

That is not, of course, the population we have.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.
> 
> The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick".  The school districts already put out that message.  They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning:   "Time for school.  Come on, kids.  Get zapped."
> 
> Guess what?  Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway.  They think it is a cold, or allergies.  Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature.  And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people.  Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.
> 
> And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.


How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class?  I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus).  I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.  

There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus.  Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis.  Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports.  Which means every kid under 12.  Insanity.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Better question is "what will you do when we don't"?
> 
> I don't see much evidence that Delta can spread within a masked vaccinated population.   The Martha's Vineyard experiment seems to say "no".
> 
> That is not, of course, the population we have.


Israel Hawaii and Iceland beg to disagree. You’ll explain those away no doubt. But we have the great experiment underway: Canada with some provinces with very high vaccination and as of a week ago almost all have mask mandates back in place, while they are also no moving into season.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class?  I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus).  I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.
> 
> There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus.  Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis.  Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports.  Which means every kid under 12.  Insanity.


The children in masks were less likely to spread the virus to other people.  As advertised.

What did you think the masks were for?  They are source control, not PPE.

If you look at the class map, it's a clear explanation for why moderate distance is not a substitute for masking.  The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it.  Neither 3 nor 6 feet was protective.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Better question is "what will you do when we don't"?
> 
> I don't see much evidence that Delta can spread within a masked vaccinated population.   The Martha's Vineyard experiment seems to say "no".
> 
> That is not, of course, the population we have.


Learn to live with it...


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> The children in masks were less likely to spread the virus to other people.  As advertised.
> 
> What did you think the masks were for?  They are source control, not PPE.
> 
> If you look at the class map, it's a clear explanation for why moderate distance is not a substitute for masking.  The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it.  Neither 3 nor 6 feet was protective.


"The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it."

... resulting in what?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> What did you think the masks were for?  They are source control, not PPE.


You know full well that they are promoted as both.

Let me ask you a question...is it misinformation to say that masks provide limited protection from the virus?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class?  I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus).  I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.
> 
> There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus.  Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis.  Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports.  Which means every kid under 12.  Insanity.


Acquiring natural immunity means passing through the risks of severe symptoms, hospitalization, and death.

I'll take the less effective vaccine, thank you.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Israel Hawaii and Iceland beg to disagree. You’ll explain those away no doubt. But we have the great experiment underway: Canada with some provinces with very high vaccination and as of a week ago almost all have mask mandates back in place, while they are also no moving into season.


You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?

Check your data.  Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.

If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers.   I bet it would be low.  We could also  look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You know full well that they are promoted as both.
> 
> Let me ask you a question...is it misinformation to say that masks provide limited protection from the virus?


It seems you are joining Grace's strawman parade.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> "The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it."
> 
> ... resulting in what?


Likely just a positive test and maybe some mild symptoms based on the overwhelming data.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You know full well that they are promoted as both.
> 
> Let me ask you a question...is it misinformation to say that masks provide limited protection from the virus?


I would call that misinformation.   The mask provides significant protection against spreading the virus.  

Saying " limited protection from the virus" is similar to saying that seat belts don't prevent car crashes.  You've choosen a wording which deliberately misses the point.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Likely just a positive test and maybe some mild symptoms based on the overwhelming data.


And bringing it home to their families.  The kids were an infection vector to other parts of the community.  You forgot that part.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?
> 
> Check your data.  Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.
> 
> If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers.   I bet it would be low.  We could also  look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.





dad4 said:


> You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?
> 
> Check your data.  Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.
> 
> If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers.   I bet it would be low.  We could also  look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.


*PRESTO!* You rule the world: 

1. What is your goal...no one gets it? or what % getting it is acceptable?

2. At what cost?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> And bringing it home to their families.  The kids were an infection vector to other parts of the community.  You forgot that part.


In the same report were noted other infections in the same school in different classrooms.  One case was a cluster of three who had spent a night together at a sleepover (presumably unmasked and at close distance).  No other students in that masked classroom were affected.  Since the researchers were testing all the students to track the course of the infection, they found 4 other students in separate classrooms who tested positive, but none of their classmates did.  That is strong evidence (not an anecdote) that masking students in school situations reduces the risk of transmission.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I would call that misinformation.   The mask provides significant protection against spreading the virus.
> 
> Saying " limited protection from the virus" is similar to saying that seat belts don't prevent car crashes.  You've choosen a wording which deliberately misses the point.


That analogy isn't remotely comparable.  

That teacher thought the same thing you did that it provided significant protection, which is patently false.   You're only encouraging the infected to go out in public which is insanity.

Please note that the 79% effectiveness of masks you quote was only for those that wore masks prior to showing symptoms.  Symptomatics are a much different equation.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> In the same report were noted other infections in the same school in different classrooms.  One case was a cluster of three who had spent a night together at a sleepover (presumably unmasked and at close distance).  No other students in that masked classroom were affected.  Since the researchers were testing all the students to track the course of the infection, they found 4 other students in separate classrooms who tested positive, but none of their classmates did.  That is strong evidence (not an anecdote) that masking students in school situations reduces the risk of transmission.


Another point I forgot to include -- the teacher was unvaccinated.  If the school district cannot enforce a vaccination requirement for teachers, can they at least provide informed consent to parents, warning them which teachers are not vaccinated?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That analogy isn't remotely comparable.
> 
> That teacher thought the same thing you did that it provided significant protection, which is patently false.   You're only encouraging the infected to go out in public which is insanity.
> 
> Please note that the 79% effectiveness of masks you quote was only for those that wore masks prior to showing symptoms.  Symptomatics are a much different equation.


You don’t see the analogy because you keep confusing masks as PPE with masks as source control.  They are very different ideas.

Once you can separate those two concepts, the teacher’s mistake will make more sense to you.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> And bringing it home to their families.  The kids were an infection vector to other parts of the community.  You forgot that part.


...and then what?


----------



## Grace T.

If this trend holds the Gottlieb/booster approach will be a bust....it means our only choice would be the UK approach









						TV: 14 Israelis who got 3rd shot later infected with COVID-19
					

Limited data not enough to draw conclusions on booster's effectiveness; ministers said to fight over potential lockdown, restriction exemption for shuls




					www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?
> 
> Check your data.  Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.
> 
> If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers.   I bet it would be low.  We could also  look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.


So now it has to be 90% vax rate (which is you count everyone, as you know is near impossible, since 12 and under can't get vaxxed).

As to the 70% adult vax rate...see below...Israel is on the verge of a lockdown despite masks, despite vaccines, and as I said, Canada will be the great experiment.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You don’t see the analogy because you keep confusing masks as PPE with masks as source control.  They are very different ideas.
> 
> Once you can separate those two concepts, the teacher’s mistake will make more sense to you.


Youre confusing me with the media, some county health officials and some politicians that are promoting it as PPE which is oveselling masks which is exactly my point.  They never differentiate the two because they dont understand the studies.  I fully understand its limitations.  I willingly wear a mask on airplanes but understand that its protecton is limited as im elbow to elbow with a stranger (who is not masked when eating or drinking)  Quite frankly Im amazed that i havent gotten Delta given all the flights Ive taken.  I believe HEPA filters are far more effective than masks, but still limited.  I assume the risk.

If I get infected through some kid at school, thats on me.  Im not going to play the victim card.  Remember im the adult.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Youre confusing me with the media, some county health officials and some politicians that are promoting it as PPE which is oveselling masks which is exactly my point.  They never differentiate the two because they dont understand the studies.  I fully understand its limitations.  I willingly wear a mask on airplanes but understand that its protecton is limited as im elbow to elbow with a stranger (who is not masked when eating or drinking)  Quite frankly Im amazed that i havent gotten Delta given all the flights Ive taken.  I believe HEPA filters are far more effective than masks, but still limited.  I assume the risk.
> 
> If I get infected through some kid at school, thats on me.  Im not going to play the victim card.  Remember im the adult.


The stupidest thing is still the restaurants and bars...wearing a mask to get in and out but everyone is sitting there without a mask on eating and drinking.  It's security theater at its finest.

Got back from the Dakotas a couple weeks back.  We crossed the Sturgis rally for a day in Deadwood.  The red and blue states are really diverging greatly in their approaches.  Except to enter a national park or an airport, no one is wearing masks there.  And in the airports we passed along the way lots of people cheating on their mask usage too.  That's not to say people aren't jumpy...I'm suffering from long RSV and had a coughing fit outside of a steakhouse one night...the couple going inside totally scurried around me and gave me a look.  Same for this guy coughing in the corner of the same restaurant (gotta admit even I got nervous).  Mount Rushmore was interesting...packed and you could totally tell whose a blue stater and red stater there.  We took a kayaking adventure and our guide thought we were crazy for basic precautions we were taking: eating outdoors when possible, making sure he was vaxxed, avoiding really packed locations like Wall Drugs and the Mount Rushmore gift shop.   Here's a glimpse of Iowa from my son's favorite youtubers.






Saddest thing is we were in Deadwood the day Kabul fell.  Guy at the desk was a veteran who had lost an arm there.  It's 11 am and I got to the front desk and the guy totally jumps down my throat saying I'm way too early to check in.  I explained I just needed the chain lowered so we could park the car since parking was full with the rally.  He apologized and broke down into tears saying it was a really hard day for him.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> If this trend holds the Gottlieb/booster approach will be a bust....it means our only choice would be the UK approach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TV: 14 Israelis who got 3rd shot later infected with COVID-19
> 
> 
> Limited data not enough to draw conclusions on booster's effectiveness; ministers said to fight over potential lockdown, restriction exemption for shuls
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


Further to this Israel is announcing that vaccine passports will be good only for 6 months (regardless of whether you catch covid in interim) from the last shot. If you go down the vaccine passport route the 2 approaches (uK/Gottlieb) become irreconcilable…you have to pick one. The us will likely offer a third option which is a red hot mess of conflicting policies since, given the recent Supreme Court ruling on rental eviction, it’s unlikely the cdc has the power to enforce a perpetual passport system and Congress is too divided to act…newsom recall may clarify things is he loses otherwise accelerates this division.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So now it has to be 90% vax rate (which is you count everyone, as you know is near impossible, since 12 and under can't get vaxxed).
> 
> As to the 70% adult vax rate...see below...Israel is on the verge of a lockdown despite masks, despite vaccines, and as I said, Canada will be the great experiment.


If you don't like the 90% vax for 12+, take it up with Delta. 

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else get a vote in this.  The 90% vax rate is just an estimate for what is necessary to drive R below 1.

You might as well complain about gravity.  It will do you as much good.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Youre confusing me with the media, some county health officials and some politicians that are promoting it as PPE which is oveselling masks which is exactly my point.  They never differentiate the two because they dont understand the studies.  I fully understand its limitations.  I willingly wear a mask on airplanes but understand that its protecton is limited as im elbow to elbow with a stranger (who is not masked when eating or drinking)  Quite frankly Im amazed that i havent gotten Delta given all the flights Ive taken.  I believe HEPA filters are far more effective than masks, but still limited.  I assume the risk.
> 
> If I get infected through some kid at school, thats on me.  Im not going to play the victim card.  Remember im the adult.


If you understand the difference between source control and PPE, why did you ask about the masks on kids in the Marin case?

Masks on the recipients would not be expected to be any help at all for source control.  They are only relevant if you think of masks as PPE.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you don't like the 90% vax for 12+, take it up with Delta.
> 
> Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else get a vote in this.  The 90% vax rate is just an estimate for what is necessary to drive R below 1.
> 
> You might as well complain about gravity.  It will do you as much good.


Well you now qualified the number with 12 and up which is at least a theoretical possibility.  But without a semi hard mandate (govt mandating it for any form of public life, whether working, going to school, going shopping), it's not going to get to 90% in most places in the US.  And if the Israel/Gottlieb approach is correct, that also means rolling 90% every 6-8 months for the next several years...I just don't see that happening (not without triggering a civil war where the red states tell the CDC to stuff it).  You've just essentially laid out the case that we shouldn't even try the Israel/Gottlieb approach because it's doomed to failure and it's UK/Denmark or bust.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.
> 
> The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick".  The school districts already put out that message.  They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning:   "Time for school.  Come on, kids.  Get zapped."
> 
> Guess what?  Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway.  They think it is a cold, or allergies.  Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature.  And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people.  Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.
> 
> And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.


Such fragility in your post.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well you now qualified the number with 12 and up which is at least a theoretical possibility.  But without a semi hard mandate (govt mandating it for any form of public life, whether working, going to school, going shopping), it's not going to get to 90% in most places in the US.  And if the Israel/Gottlieb approach is correct, that also means rolling 90% every 6-8 months for the next several years...I just don't see that happening (not without triggering a civil war where the red states tell the CDC to stuff it).  You've just essentially laid out the case that we shouldn't even try the Israel/Gottlieb approach because it's doomed to failure and it's UK/Denmark or bust.


Denmark just hit an 80% adult vax rate.  They actually treated the disease with respect.

The red state folks want it all to be over, but aren’t willing to do anything to make that happen.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Sherelle Jacobs identifies an ominous parallel between the ‘war on terror’ and the ‘war on Covid.’ Here’s her conclusion:

The failure of the war [in Afghanistan] was not just logistical but also intellectual. The neo-conservatism that inspired Bush and Blair was based on decent but vague Enlightenment ideals about human rights and democracy. Though the academic school had spent years advocating America’s unique role in advancing these ideals across the world prior to 9/11, it had made few attempts to interrogate the specific conditions in which they flourish.Perhaps that is because the neo-con movement was as visceral as it was intellectual – its faith in America’s heroic purpose was partly a revolt against modern liberal society with its vapid nihilism and refusal to take sides. While there was nothing wrong with that impulse, the camp struggled to move beyond a self-confidence that bordered on spiritual. It remains in denial about how catastrophically its lofty theories collided with gritty reality in Afghanistan.

And so it goes that the West shifts from one war to another – or, rather, one simulation to another. *The war on terror may be drawing to a close but there is no end in sight to the war on coronavirus. There are differences: this new unfolding epic has a sci-fi flavour and a fresh heroic quest – absolute Safety has relegated absolute Freedom from cause to victim. Still, much is familiar – the Manichean rhetoric, peddled by world leaders and amplified by broadcast media. The open-ended war on a global phenomenon which risks doing more harm than good. An ever-mutating threat that must be not merely minimised, but eliminated.*

One can only hope that we are not here again in 20 years once the Covid era has passed, too afraid to ask ourselves what it was all for.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Denmark just hit an 80% adult vax rate.  They actually treated the disease with respect.
> 
> The red state folks want it all to be over, but aren’t willing to do anything to make that happen.


Nonsense


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Here’s wisdom shared on Facebook by Phil Magness:

Good reasons to oppose vaccine passports:
– They invite massive government overreach
– They’re likely to be bureaucratic nightmares with TSA levels of effectiveness and incompetence
– They create a medical privacy risk
– Their burdens are inequitable and fall most heavily on poor people and minorities
– They promote and incentivize disease ostracism, which has a long history of atrocities.
– They contain no exceptions for the millions of people who have proven antibody immunity from covid recovery.
Bad reasons to oppose vaccine passports:
– You read somewhere on the internet that vaccines don’t work and/or have high risks of harmful side effects, and therefore don’t want to take the vaccine.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Denmark just hit an 80% adult vax rate.  They actually treated the disease with respect.
> 
> The red state folks want it all to be over, but aren’t willing to do anything to make that happen.


"want it to be over"....you've presented a false choice....you could go full UK approach.  Eventually enough people catch it and acquire natural immunity..  Yeah, the death toll will be higher.  But every adult that wants one has now been offered a vaccine.  The rest of us can only protect people from stupidity for so long.  But unless you can figure out a way to get that vaxxed rate up, and not just that but keep it up every 6-8 months, you are basically saying the UK approach is our only option.  That's more radical than where I am right now, but you've pushed me a little closer to it.

Oh, here BTW, is a sad story about a mom that was skeptical of the vaccine.  Followed the advice, though, about masks and thought it would protect her.   Apparently followed the advice too that it's o.k. to not wear a mask if you are eating indoors.  

Particularly if you haven't had the Rona, get vaccinated.









						Unvaccinated single mom dies of COVID-19, leaving 4 children behind
					

Cindy Dawkins' children range in age from 12 to 24.




					www.goodmorningamerica.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If you don't like the 90% vax for 12+, take it up with Delta.
> 
> Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else get a vote in this.  The 90% vax rate is just an estimate for what is necessary to drive R below 1.
> 
> You might as well complain about gravity.  It will do you as much good.


Politicians have turned Covid-19 into a moral crusade, quasi-religious in nature, creating a doomsday cult. Masks generate fear and help keep the cultish behaviour going. Lockdowns demoralise us, reducing our capacity to resist dangerous authoritarian rule. Defeating the virus is the impossible aim that keeps the cult leaders in business.


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like Norway and Singapore are going to sign off on the UK/Denmark approach too.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You don’t see the analogy because you keep confusing masks as PPE with masks as source control.  They are very different ideas.
> 
> Once you can separate those two concepts, the teacher’s mistake will make more sense to you.


It’s striking how much the CDC, in marshalling evidence to justify its revised mask guidance, studiously avoids mentioning* randomized controlled trials. RCTs are uniformly regarded as the gold standard in medical research, yet the CDC basically ignores them apart from disparaging certain ones that particularly contradict the agency’s position.* In a “Science Brief” highlighting studies that “demonstrate that mask wearing reduces new infections” and serving as the main public justification for its mask guidance, the CDC provides a helpful matrix of 15 studies—none RCTs. The CDC instead focuses strictly on observational studies completed after Covid-19 began. In general, observational studies are not only of lower quality than RCTs but also are more likely to be politicized, as they can inject the researcher’s judgment more prominently into the inquiry and lend themselves, far more than RCTs, to finding what one wants to find.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Another point I forgot to include -- the teacher was unvaccinated.  If the school district cannot enforce a vaccination requirement for teachers, can they at least provide informed consent to parents, warning them which teachers are not vaccinated?


*Mask supporters often claim that we have no choice but to rely on observational studies instead of RCTs, because RCTs cannot tell us whether masks work or not. But what they really mean is that they don’t like what the RCTs show.*

The randomized controlled trial dates, in a sense, to 1747, when Royal Navy surgeon James Lind divided seamen suffering from similar cases of scurvy into six pairs and tried different methods of treatment on each. Lind writes, “The consequence was, that the most sudden and visible good effects were perceived from the use of oranges and lemons.”

The RCT eventually became firmly established as the most reliable way to test medical interventions. The following passage, from Abdelhamid Attia, an M.D. and professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Cairo University in Egypt, conveys its dominance:

The importance of RCTs for clinical practice can be illustrated by its impact on the shift of practice in hormone replacement therapy (HRT). For decades HRT was considered the standard care for all postmenopausal, symptomatic and asymptomatic women. Evidence for the effectiveness of HRT relied always on observational studies[,] mostly cohort studies. But a single RCT that was published in 2002 . . . has changed clinical practice all over the world from the liberal use of HRT to the conservative use in selected symptomatic cases and for the shortest period of time. *In other words, one well conducted RCT has changed the practice that relied on tens, and probably hundreds, of observational studies for decades.*

Do Masks Work? A Review Of The Evidence


----------



## Grace T.

Gottlieb is reporting Pfizer to file authorization 5-12 in October. Fda likely to make a decision on eu by late December.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Outbreak Associated with SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta)...
> 
> 
> COVID-19 outbreak associated with an unvaccinated infected teacher in an elementary school from May–June 2021 in Marin County, California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


The CDC asserts this even though its own statistics show that Covid-19 is not much of a threat to schoolchildren. Its numbers show that more people under the age of 18 died of influenza during the 2018–19 flu season—a season of “moderate severity” that lasted eight months—than have died of Covid-19 across more than 18 months. What’s more, the CDC says that out of every 1,738 Covid-19-related deaths in the U.S. in 2020 and 2021, just one has involved someone under 18 years of age; and out of every 150 deaths of someone under 18 years of age, just one has been Covid-related. Yet the CDC declares that schoolchildren, who learn in part from communication conveyed through facial expressions, should nevertheless hide their faces—and so should their teachers.

_*How did mask guidance change so profoundly? Did the medical research on the effectiveness of masks change—and in a remarkably short period of time—or just the guidance on wearing them?*_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

A 2016 study in Beijing by MacIntyre, et al. that claimed to find a possible benefit of masks did not prove very informative, as only one person in the control group—and one in the mask group—developed a laboratory-confirmed infection. Much more illuminating was a 2010 study in France by Canini, et al., which randomly placed sick people, or “index patients,” and their household contacts together into either a mask group or a no-mask control group. The authors “observed a good adherence to the intervention,” meaning that the index patients generally wore the furnished three-ply masks as intended. (No one else was asked to wear them.) Within a week, 15.8 percent of household contacts in the no-mask control group and 16.2 percent in the mask group developed an “influenza-like illness” (ILI). So, the two groups were essentially dead even, with the sliver of an advantage observed in the control group not being statistically significant. The authors write that the study “should be interpreted with caution since the lack of statistical power prevents us to draw formal conclusion regarding effectiveness of face masks in the context of a seasonal epidemic.” However, they state unequivocally, “In various sensitivity analyses, we did not identify any trend in the results suggesting effectiveness of face masks.”


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Gottlieb is reporting Pfizer to file authorization 5-12 in October. Fda likely to make a decision on eu by late December.


Did you intend that to be a sentence?


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Did you intend that to be a sentence?


damned order words be.   information had useful it.

Thanks.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> "want it to be over"....you've presented a false choice....


I thought the same thing when I read it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Outbreak Associated with SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta)...
> 
> 
> COVID-19 outbreak associated with an unvaccinated infected teacher in an elementary school from May–June 2021 in Marin County, California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


A 2010 study by Larson, et al. in New York found that those in the hand-hygiene group were less likely to develop any symptoms of an upper respiratory infection (42 percent experienced symptoms) than those in the mask-plus-hand-hygiene group (61 percent). *This statistically significant finding suggests that wearing a mask actually undermines the benefits of hand hygiene.*

A multivariable analysis of this same study found a significant difference in secondary attack rates (the rate of transmission to others) between the mask-plus-hands group and the control group. On this basis, the authors maintain that mask-wearing “should be encouraged during outbreak situations.” However, this multivariable analysis also found significantly lower rates in crowded homes—“i.e., more crowded households had less transmission”—which tested at a higher confidence level. *Thus, to the extent that this multivariable analysis provided any support for masks, it provided at least as much support for crowding.*

Lol!  You people crack me up.


----------



## espola

Bruddah IZ said:


> A 2010 study by Larson, et al. in New York found that those in the hand-hygiene group were less likely to develop any symptoms of an upper respiratory infection (42 percent experienced symptoms) than those in the mask-plus-hand-hygiene group (61 percent). *This statistically significant finding suggests that wearing a mask actually undermines the benefits of hand hygiene.*
> 
> A multivariable analysis of this same study found a significant difference in secondary attack rates (the rate of transmission to others) between the mask-plus-hands group and the control group. On this basis, the authors maintain that mask-wearing “should be encouraged during outbreak situations.” However, this multivariable analysis also found significantly lower rates in crowded homes—“i.e., more crowded households had less transmission”—which tested at a higher confidence level. *Thus, to the extent that this multivariable analysis provided any support for masks, it provided at least as much support for crowding.*
> 
> Lol!  You people crack me up.


From the actual study, not the politicized opinion of it --

" In this population, there was no detectable additional benefit of hand sanitizer or face masks over targeted education on overall rates of URIs, but mask wearing was associated with reduced secondary transmission and should be encouraged during outbreak situations. "


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I thought the same thing when I read it.


The key is whether as the Israelis believe you need a booster every 6-8 months. If so they will, short of dragging people to get shots or ostracizing them from any civilization, never get it to 90%.  You are losing significant percentages every month that you have to get revaxxed. If that really is the number as dad insists, there’s no choice but to go full uk

with Denmark, Sweden and Norway now looking towards the Uk approach, it sets up a significant clash with countries like France which have been with the vaccine passports leaning more towards the Israeli approach

The world is drifting to 5 approaches: uk/Denmark/Singapore favoring natural immunity after vax, Israel and Canada with boosters, zero covid in China oz nz, too poor to do anything in much of the world and the us mess of two very different trends. We’ll see how it shakes out.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> From the actual study, not the politicized opinion of it --
> 
> " In this population, there was no detectable additional benefit of hand sanitizer or face masks over targeted education on overall rates of URIs, but mask wearing was associated with reduced secondary transmission and should be *encouraged *during outbreak situations. "


You know.... versus mandated dear.  Speaking of politicized.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick". The school districts already put out that message. They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning: "Time for school. Come on, kids. Get zapped."
> 
> Guess what? Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway. They think it is a cold, or allergies. Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature. And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people. Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are


Dad. 72 million kids 17 and under. 350 deaths.

Your example above is phobia, not reality.

As many time you like to talk about mitigation measures at schools.. it doesn't matter. The data shows there is no issue.

Your the math guy.72 million with 350 deaths. Based on that attempt to justify your preferred mitigation efforts.

Lay it on us


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The key is whether as the Israelis believe you need a booster every 6-8 months. If so they will, short of dragging people to get shots or ostracizing them from any civilization, never get it to 90%.  You are losing significant percentages every month that you have to get revaxxed. If that really is the number as dad insists, there’s no choice but to go full uk
> 
> with Denmark, Sweden and Norway now looking towards the Uk approach, it sets up a significant clash with countries like France which have been with the vaccine passports leaning more towards the Israeli approach
> 
> The world is drifting to 5 approaches: uk/Denmark/Singapore favoring natural immunity after vax, Israel and Canada with boosters, zero covid in China oz nz, too poor to do anything in much of the world and the us mess of two very different trends. We’ll see how it shakes out.


This is already getting a lot more interesting than I imagined a few months back.


----------



## Desert Hound

met61 said:


> resulting in what


Nothing.

That is the part all the news stories omit


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The key is whether as the Israelis believe you need a booster every 6-8 months. If so they will, short of dragging people to get shots or ostracizing them from any civilization, never get it to 90%.  You are losing significant percentages every month that you have to get revaxxed. If that really is the number as dad insists, there’s no choice but to go full uk
> 
> with Denmark, Sweden and Norway now looking towards the Uk approach, it sets up a significant clash with countries like France which have been with the vaccine passports leaning more towards the Israeli approach
> 
> The world is drifting to 5 approaches: uk/Denmark/Singapore favoring natural immunity after vax, Israel and Canada with boosters, zero covid in China oz nz, too poor to do anything in much of the world and the us mess of two very different trends. We’ll see how it shakes out.


Dad wishes to remind you that previous infections help towards the 90%.  That’s why I phrased it as 90% or 70% with significant previous infections.   Many more was than that to get there, if you think.  

My point was simply that Martha’s Vineyard is not showing exponential growth.  A very high vax rate appears to be protective.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Dad wishes to remind you that previous infections help towards the 90%.  That’s why I phrased it as 90% or 70% with significant previous infections.   Many more was than that to get there, if you think.
> 
> My point was simply that Martha’s Vineyard is not showing exponential growth.  A very high vax rate appears to be protective.


Yes but my point is if you rely on the vax alone and if the Israelis are right you are going to lose a portion of vaccination protection every month. If it’s true vaxx immunity wanes, and your % is right, the uk approach is the only way to get there (and if so your vaxx passport is meaningless since a % will drop out of immunity every month and the masks assuming they even work against the delta are counter productive to ending this…if 90% is the number you’d want vaccinated people to fall ill). That’s a pretty scary proposition for a lot of people and I’m not 100% there yet.

btw I wouldn’t expect exponential growth out of Martha’s Vineyard right now….low density housing, out of seasonality, high and still recent vaxx rate.  Even the p town superspreader event didn’t lead to exponential growth in the surrounding area. Even sturgis didn’t in the dakotas.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes but my point is if you rely on the vax alone and if the Israelis are right you are going to lose a portion of vaccination protection every month. If it’s true vaxx immunity wanes, and your % is right, the uk approach is the only way to get there (and if so your vaxx passport is meaningless since a % will drop out of immunity every month and the masks assuming they even work against the delta are counter productive to ending this…if 90% is the number you’d want vaccinated people to fall ill). That’s a pretty scary proposition for a lot of people and I’m not 100% there yet.
> 
> btw I wouldn’t expect exponential growth out of Martha’s Vineyard right now….low density housing, out of seasonality, high and still recent vaxx rate.  Even the p town superspreader event didn’t lead to exponential growth in the surrounding area. Even sturgis didn’t in the dakotas.


Who cares if you or I “want” 90%?    That seems to be what is required.  One way or another we will get there.

The only remaining question is how many choose Pfizer and how many choose Delta.  Both work.  Just expect a heavy thumb on the scale from businesses who would like to reopen their offices.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes but my point is if you rely on the vax alone and if the Israelis are right you are going to lose a portion of vaccination protection every month. If it’s true vaxx immunity wanes, and your % is right, the uk approach is the only way to get there (and if so your vaxx passport is meaningless since a % will drop out of immunity every month and the masks assuming they even work against the delta are counter productive to ending this…if 90% is the number you’d want vaccinated people to fall ill). That’s a pretty scary proposition for a lot of people and I’m not 100% there yet.
> 
> btw I wouldn’t expect exponential growth out of Martha’s Vineyard right now….low density housing, out of seasonality, high and still recent vaxx rate.  Even the p town superspreader event didn’t lead to exponential growth in the surrounding area. Even sturgis didn’t in the dakotas.











						South Dakota Covid cases quintuple after Sturgis motorcycle rally
					

Meade County, home to Sturgis, has had a more than 1,500 percent increase in cases in the past 14 days.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Who cares if you or I “want” 90%?    That seems to be what is required.  One way or another we will get there.
> 
> The only remaining question is how many choose Pfizer and how many choose Delta.  Both work.  Just expect a heavy thumb on the scale from businesses who would like to reopen their offices.


The problem, again, is if: a) the 90% is true and b) the 90% reduces over time, you can’t get there with boosters because part of it goes away every month. And who cares?  You do…because you like masks and vaccine passports….if you use natural immunity you want to get there as fast as possible while immunity is high which means the masks are useless except to make people feel better.  Unless you are going to force everyone to get vaxxed repeatedly what you are advocating for makes no sense.

the offices are in a hopeless dilemma in blue states.  They can’t reopen while there’s a mask mandate and people are urged to social distance: the masks from the prior article are already a drag on people returning to employment, white collar workers who can work from home won’t tolerate it, the air circulation and density in most buildings are poor, and while you have mask mandates you’ve given everyone a signal it’s not safe yet. Most employees in big companies have been told they’ll need to vaxx and despite a high uptick among white collar workers in blue areas (in blue areas they aren’t the problem) most offices are still shuttered or on restricted capacity.  Then there’s testing and quarantine:classrooms are still getting disrupted even in red states due to exposures and what do you do then if someone in an office becomes exposed. The entire point of an office environment is collaboration and socialization which isn’t possible if you are still social distancing. The big company hrs are pulling their hair over this right now.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The problem, again, is if: a) the 90% is true and b) the 90% reduces over time, you can’t get there with boosters because part of it goes away every month. And who cares?  You do…because you like masks and vaccine passports….if you use natural immunity you want to get there as fast as possible while immunity is high which means the masks are useless except to make people feel better.  Unless you are going to force everyone to get vaxxed repeatedly what you are advocating for makes no sense.
> 
> the offices are in a hopeless dilemma in blue states.  They can’t reopen while there’s a mask mandate and people are urged to social distance: the masks from the prior article are already a drag on people returning to employment, white collar workers who can work from home won’t tolerate it, the air circulation and density in most buildings are poor, and while you have mask mandates you’ve given everyone a signal it’s not safe yet. Most employees in big companies have been told they’ll need to vaxx and despite a high uptick among white collar workers in blue areas (in blue areas they aren’t the problem) most offices are still shuttered or on restricted capacity.  Then there’s testing and quarantine:classrooms are still getting disrupted even in red states due to exposures and what do you do then if someone in an office becomes exposed. The entire point of an office environment is collaboration and socialization which isn’t possible if you are still social distancing. The big company hrs are pulling their hair over this right now.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> View attachment 11549


“Oh Magoo you’ve done it again”


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> South Dakota Covid cases quintuple after Sturgis motorcycle rally
> 
> 
> Meade County, home to Sturgis, has had a more than 1,500 percent increase in cases in the past 14 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Do now North Dakota Minnesota and Canada over the same time period.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Who cares if you or I “want” 90%?    That seems to be what is required.  One way or another we will get there.
> 
> The only remaining question is how many choose Pfizer and how many choose Delta.  Both work.  Just expect a heavy thumb on the scale from businesses who would like to reopen their offices.


In your world, at what point should the government stop f'ing with people over this thing?


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> Dad. 72 million kids 17 and under. 350 deaths.
> 
> Your example above is phobia, not reality.
> 
> As many time you like to talk about mitigation measures at schools.. it doesn't matter. The data shows there is no issue.
> 
> Your the math guy.72 million with 350 deaths. Based on that attempt to justify your preferred mitigation efforts.
> 
> Lay it on us


What rate of damage from COVID-19 to individuals directly and indirectly (from areas where the medical systems are highly impacted) do you find acceptable?  -(btw, you know your 350 number is outdated, in 0-17 it is currently 496). I agree the death rate is far higher in older age groups, but you also know infected kids do pass on the virus to other age groups.  

There's also the issue of long covid, where symptoms continue in kids more than 4-12 weeks post infection.  Long covid symptoms are not necessarily tied to the severity of the initial infection.  It's a challenge to study in part because there are not clearly defined diagnostic criteria for adults or kids.  (Brain fog, fatigue/exhaustion, headache,  There have been studies around the world trying to get an estimate for the percentage of kids that develop long covid. The numbers seem to range from 1% to 10% in kids 2-16. The ages included in these studies varied a bit.  (These would be data from the older SARS-cov2 variants, not delta.).


----------



## espola

Roadrunner said:


> What rate of damage from COVID-19 to individuals directly and indirectly (from areas where the medical systems are highly impacted) do you find acceptable?  -(btw, you know your 350 number is outdated, in 0-17 it is currently 496). I agree the death rate is far higher in older age groups, but you also know infected kids do pass on the virus to other age groups.
> 
> There's also the issue of long covid, where symptoms continue in kids more than 4-12 weeks post infection.  Long covid symptoms are not necessarily tied to the severity of the initial infection.  It's a challenge to study in part because there are not clearly defined diagnostic criteria for adults or kids.  (Brain fog, fatigue/exhaustion, headache,  There have been studies around the world trying to get an estimate for the percentage of kids that develop long covid. The numbers seem to range from 1% to 10% in kids 2-16. The ages included in these studies varied a bit.  (These would be data from the older SARS-cov2 variants, not delta.).


It's a challenge to study long covid because no one has had it very long.

Irrelevant anecdote -- my cousin (born in the '40s) had rheumatic fever as a child and was believed to be fully recovered.  When he tried to join the Air Force after high school, he flunked the entrance physical exam due to a heart murmur.


----------



## crush

Looks like the Communist and Elitist are out in full force this morning spewing lies & more lies. These losers use kids as pawns & shields and use US Marines to make money and destroy other peoples way of life.  True MOFOs!!!  You fools are not being very nice and you're so exposed as the lairs that your are.  Some are scared these days with real fear.  









						NEVER GIVE THEM AN INCH!!!
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> What rate of damage from COVID-19 to individuals directly and indirectly (from areas where the medical systems are highly impacted) do you find acceptable?  -(btw, you know your 350 number is outdated, in 0-17 it is currently 496). I agree the death rate is far higher in older age groups, but you also know infected kids do pass on the virus to other age groups.
> 
> There's also the issue of long covid, where symptoms continue in kids more than 4-12 weeks post infection.  Long covid symptoms are not necessarily tied to the severity of the initial infection.  It's a challenge to study in part because there are not clearly defined diagnostic criteria for adults or kids.  (Brain fog, fatigue/exhaustion, headache,  There have been studies around the world trying to get an estimate for the percentage of kids that develop long covid. The numbers seem to range from 1% to 10% in kids 2-16. The ages included in these studies varied a bit.  (These would be data from the older SARS-cov2 variants, not delta.).


The numbers arent as high at 10%. At 10% we’d be seeing a wave of news stories and parent protests. That’s just fear mongering. The upper bound all ages for all children seems to be 2% but that includes things like persistent cough (im at 8 weeks with a cough long rsv).  But that doesn’t include, as you say, what we really care about which is debilitating covid for a year or more.  At this point however it’s been more than a year with prime so the burden of proof really is on the lockdown forever school at this point.


----------



## espola

Anti-masker logic --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432136335578607620


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> View attachment 11549


I like how you defined encouraged.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Anti-masker logic --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432136335578607620


Taking a page out of the Maxine Waters playbook….


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> The numbers arent as high at 10%. At 10% we’d be seeing a wave of news stories and parent protests. That’s just fear mongering. The upper bound all ages for all children seems to be 2% but that includes things like persistent cough (im at 8 weeks with a cough long rsv).  But that doesn’t include, as you say, what we really care about which is debilitating covid for a year or more.  At this point however it’s been more than a year with prime so the burden of proof really is on the lockdown forever school at this point.


These were studies from Italy, the UK and Russia. The numbers cannot be firm at this point either for many reasons, including that they are dealing with a different variant, and the time scales can differ - for obvious reasons too.  I'm not fear mongering, just bringing up a real part of the situation that needs to be kept in mind.


----------



## Desert Hound

Roadrunner said:


> btw, you know your 350 number is outdated, in 0-17 it is currently 496


Does the risk data change any going from 350 to 496 in a population of 72 million? 

Trick question. No it doesn't.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Does the risk data change any going from 350 to 496 in a population of 72 million?
> 
> Trick question. No it doesn't.


Will Hound every stop ignoring whether school transmission leads to added community spread?

Trick question.  No he won’t.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> These were studies from Italy, the UK and Russia. The numbers cannot be firm at this point either for many reasons, including that they are dealing with a different variant, and the time scales can differ - for obvious reasons too.  I'm not fear mongering, just bringing up a real part of the situation that needs to be kept in mind.


But policy is made on data.  Not on the basis that it's scary or "think of the children".  I agree it's an important question.  I agree it's the key question for determining which approach (UK v. Israel) is the correct one.  I agree it needs to be studied, ASAP.  But right now, the data isn't there to support the notion that long COVID is actually a significant problem in children (the other relevant question being whether long COVID is a significant factor in vaccinated adults).  If this data isn't presented soon, other factors (like politics) will force the choice.  If you are saying it's difficult/nearly impossible to get that data, particularly given the limited time period that has passed, well then politics in the end will decide it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Will Hound every stop ignoring whether school transmission leads to added community spread?
> 
> Trick question.  No he won’t.


If you believe 90% is the number we need for herd immunity, and if vaccine immunity reduces over time, you'd want community spread (at least among the vaccinated).  That's different than Roadrunner's argument which is unvaccinated children may suffer long term side effect, notwithstanding low deaths, so we don't want to hit that 90% number.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Will Hound every stop ignoring whether school transmission leads to added community spread?
> 
> Trick question.  No he won’t.


If Dad4 was on the Titanic, "Don't let the kids in our lifeboat, they could panic and tip over the boat".

I find the fear of children just mind boggling.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> If Dad4 was on the Titanic, "Don't let the kids in our lifeboat, they could panic and tip over the boat".
> 
> I find the fear of children just mind boggling.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

Israel now at it's highest level despite high vaccination, masks and rolling out the boosters.









						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## espola

Lady asks cop to give her 6 feet because he is unmasked.  Cop says "I don't need a mask because <unintelligible>"






She needed a bigger dog.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Lady asks cop to give her 6 feet because he is unmasked.  Cop says "I don't need a mask because <unintelligible>"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She needed a bigger dog.


1. At least the doggo tried to defend her.  More than I can probably say for my doggo.
2. Looks like he says because "we're outside".
3. That's the stupid thing about mask rules.  If the police officer does in fact have COVID and is screaming at her in her face, or is handling her, she can totally can get COVID from him, outdoors or indoors from that close contact.  The question then becomes would wearing a mask have given the lady any protection, and my question back would be what type of mask.
4.  It's an illustration of what flows from mask rules.  You have "normal" and you have varying degrees of "anxious".  There isn't some middle area on the dial.  You tell people they aren't safe and need to mask (anywhere) and you get this.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> But policy is made on data.  Not on the basis that it's scary or "think of the children".  I agree it's an important question.  I agree it's the key question for determining which approach (UK v. Israel) is the correct one.  I agree it needs to be studied, ASAP.  But right now, the data isn't there to support the notion that long COVID is actually a significant problem in children (the other relevant question being whether long COVID is a significant factor in vaccinated adults).  If this data isn't presented soon, other factors (like politics) will force the choice.  If you are saying it's difficult/nearly impossible to get that data, particularly given the limited time period that has passed, well then politics in the end will decide it.


My impression of those most likely to say "think of the children" are those who claim that being masked in school somehow ruins their childhood.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If you believe 90% is the number we need for herd immunity, and if vaccine immunity reduces over time, you'd want community spread (at least among the vaccinated).  That's different than Roadrunner's argument which is unvaccinated children may suffer long term side effect, notwithstanding low deaths, so we don't want to hit that 90% number.


Why would I want community spread?  We have every reason to believe that a vaccinated population with masks does not grow Delta.   

CDC estimates that about 2.7% of the population is immunocompromised in some way.  That sounds high, but start counting.  Transplant recipients, cancer patients, people with auto immune diseases, and so on...  That is a lot of people who are difficult or impossible to vaccinate.   You think I’d want to put them at risk just to pander to some anti-vax conspiracy theory?  Heck no.  Just get your shots.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. At least the doggo tried to defend her.  More than I can probably say for my doggo.
> 2. Looks like he says because "we're outside".
> 3. That's the stupid thing about mask rules.  If the police officer does in fact have COVID and is screaming at her in her face, or is handling her, she can totally can get COVID from him, outdoors or indoors from that close contact.  The question then becomes would wearing a mask have given the lady any protection, and my question back would be what type of mask.
> 4.  It's an illustration of what flows from mask rules.  You have "normal" and you have varying degrees of "anxious".  There isn't some middle area on the dial.  You tell people they aren't safe and need to mask (anywhere) and you get this.


You don't need a mask when you are outside as long as you respect the 2-meter rule, as I understand it.  Standards may be different in Chicago.

The cop obviously needs to be retrained since at no time In this encounter do we hear him say "Stop resisting".


----------



## espola

espola said:


> My impression of those most likely to say "think of the children" are those who claim that being masked in school somehow ruins their childhood.


For example --


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CS-47r8DvJ6/

"The pandemic is over", among other things.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why would I want community spread?  We have every reason to believe that a vaccinated population with masks does not grow Delta.
> 
> CDC estimates that about 2.7% of the population is immunocompromised in some way.  That sounds high, but start counting.  Transplant recipients, cancer patients, people with auto immune diseases, and so on...  That is a lot of people who are difficult or impossible to vaccinate.   You think I’d want to put them at risk just to pander to some anti-vax conspiracy theory?  Heck no.  Just get your shots.


That's hilarious.  See Israel.

See also my personal case study:  11 participants in an outdoor BBQ.  All had COVID or were fully vaxxed.  Wore masks except while eating.  The 3 non vaxxed with COVID did not come down with COVID again despite testing and despite taking in patient zero. Patient zero was fully vaxxed and a bit of a COVID paranoid who always wore an N95 and probably came down with it at her job.  4 of the 6 vaxxed people came down with COVID, 1 seriously, 1 asymptomatic, 2 with the sniffles.

Absolutely get your vax.  The question, though, is whether we are going to keep vaxxing people with boosters or just have them catch it and go with natural immunity.  If the later, you want community spread while vaccine immunity, which seems to decline with time, is high.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You don't need a mask when you are outside as long as you respect the 2-meter rule, as I understand it.  Standards may be different in Chicago.
> 
> The cop obviously needs to be retrained since at no time In this encounter do we hear him say "Stop resisting".



But he wasn't respecting the 2 m rule, which is what set off the incident


----------



## notintheface

Please read this whole thread:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/pbvcdu


----------



## NOVA.Dad




----------



## crush

notintheface said:


> Please read this whole thread:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/pbvcdu


WTF have you been coach?


----------



## crush

All the Avatars are out today.  Espola, are you unleashing the masses?


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11552


and?  What other lie you got asshole?


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> If Dad4 was on the Titanic, "Don't let the kids in our lifeboat, they could panic and tip over the boat".
> 
> I find the fear of children just mind boggling.


... I find it small and cowardly.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That's hilarious.  See Israel.
> 
> See also my personal case study:  11 participants in an outdoor BBQ.  All had COVID or were fully vaxxed.  Wore masks except while eating.  The 3 non vaxxed with COVID did not come down with COVID again despite testing and despite taking in patient zero. Patient zero was fully vaxxed and a bit of a COVID paranoid who always wore an N95 and probably came down with it at her job.  4 of the 6 vaxxed people came down with COVID, 1 seriously, 1 asymptomatic, 2 with the sniffles.
> 
> Absolutely get your vax.  The question, though, is whether we are going to keep vaxxing people with boosters or just have them catch it and go with natural immunity.  If the later, you want community spread while vaccine immunity, which seems to decline with time, is high.


Israel?  They aren’t highly vaxxed.  Maybe they are by your definiton, but your definition of “highly vaxxed” is not the same as Delta’s definiton of highly vaxxed.   

Duke’s county in MA is 88% vaccinated.  88% of total pop.  That is enough to keep them near steady state.  Not decline.  Just almost stable.

Israel is at 60%.   Why on earth would 60% be enough for Delta?   Delta is known to be growing in dozens of places with a 60% overall vax rate.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Oh?? Lol!


Since you appear unlikely to share your little joke, does the following capture what you are trying to say?

1) Official case tallies of the MERS and SARS outbreaks are actually gross underestimates.
2) In reality, both were global pandemics of comparable magnitude to what we have with CoV-2.
3) However, due to a relative dearth of PCR testing and (presumably) other broad-population assessments of infection, the true scale of the MERS and SARS pandemics went undetected.
4) Additionally, fatalities associated with the proposed MERS and SARS pandemics essentially did not produce a signal over the day-to-day noise of people dying of all kinds of things.
5) Therefore, the only reason anybody is making any kind of fuss over CoV-2 is that a push for PCR testing revealed the scale of it, otherwise we'd all have kept skipping down the path on our merry way.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> "The pandemic is over", among other things.


...among other things---> " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Israel?  They aren’t highly vaxxed.  Maybe they are by your definiton, but your definition of “highly vaxxed” is not the same as Delta’s definiton of highly vaxxed.
> 
> Duke’s county in MA is 88% vaccinated.  88% of total pop.  That is enough to keep them near steady state.  Not decline.  Just almost stable.
> 
> Israel is at 60%.   Why on earth would 60% be enough for Delta?   Delta is known to be growing in dozens of places with a 60% overall vax rate.


Under your definition no country then is highly vaxxed.  Per The Guardian's tracker, Israel is as 153 doses per 100 people, with only Iceland (also having problems) and Uruguay higher.

As for Duke county, the problem again is part of that 88% month to month is going to fall in effectiveness so even if they hit 90% it will continue to fall from there.  That's the problem...if you think the number is 90%, and if the vaccine drops in effectiveness over time, there's no way to get there using the Gottlieb/Israeli approach....it's the UK/Denmark/Singapore or bust then.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since you appear unlikely to share your little joke, does the following capture what you are trying to say?
> 
> 1) Official case tallies of the MERS and SARS outbreaks are actually gross underestimates.
> 2) In reality, both were global pandemics of comparable magnitude to what we have with CoV-2.
> 3) However, due to a relative dearth of PCR testing and (presumably) other broad-population assessments of infection, the true scale of the MERS and SARS pandemics went undetected.
> 4) Additionally, fatalities associated with the proposed MERS and SARS pandemics essentially did not produce a signal over the day-to-day noise of people dying of all kinds of things.
> 5) Therefore, the only reason anybody is making any kind of fuss over CoV-2 is that a push for PCR testing revealed the scale of it, otherwise we'd all have kept skipping down the path on our merry way.


No, that wasn't at all what I was trying to say.  Is that what you are trying to say?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> But he wasn't respecting the 2 m rule, which is what set off the incident


Interesting analysis.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would I want community spread?  We have every reason to believe that a vaccinated population with masks does not grow Delta.
> 
> CDC estimates that about 2.7% of the population is immunocompromised in some way.  That sounds high, but start counting.  Transplant recipients, cancer patients, people with auto immune diseases, and so on...  That is a lot of people who are difficult or impossible to vaccinate.   You think I’d want to put them at risk just to pander to some anti-vax conspiracy theory?  Heck no.  Just get your shots.


Your technocrat bent is showing again.


----------



## espola

notintheface said:


> Please read this whole thread:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/pbvcdu


The "whole thread" is like a thousand entries?  I don't know really -- I stopped reading when I realized the thread was still growing.

Simple lessons -- get vaccinated; get your kids vaccinated; practice safe social procedures.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Under your definition *no country then is highly vaxxed*.  Per The Guardian's tracker, Israel is as 153 doses per 100 people, with only Iceland (also having problems) and Uruguay higher.
> 
> As for Duke county, the problem again is part of that 88% month to month is going to fall in effectiveness so even if they hit 90% it will continue to fall from there.  That's the problem...if you think the number is 90%, and if the vaccine drops in effectiveness over time, there's no way to get there using the Gottlieb/Israeli approach....it's the UK/Denmark/Singapore or bust then.


90%-
Yes.  That is the problem.  By the definition that matters, very few places are really fully vaccinated.

But it isn‘t my definition to choose.  The threshold is whatever it is.  Do you have any reason to believe that the herd immunity threshold is anything less than 90% ?


Degradation-
 I am not so worried about the gradual degradation in vaccine effectiveness.   Other vaccines also need boosters, and it never really bothered me.  

Besides, there are two factors pulling in the opposite direction.  The fraction of the population that can be vaccinated will rise as we approve youth dosages.  More importantly, at some point we will have a booster which targets Delta specifically.   Between vaccinating more people and having better targeted shots, I’m not too worried about the long term plan for vaccinations.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> No, that wasn't at all what I was trying to say.  Is that what you are trying to say?


No.  It would be an absurd argument and demonstrably false.  Which then raises the question of what are you trying to say when you bring up SARS and MERS?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Will Hound every stop ignoring whether school transmission leads to added community spread?
> 
> Trick question.  No he won’t.


Actually they have found that schools are not a driver of community spread. Lots of articles about that. 

So why exactly are we playing safety theater with a group of individuals who have no risk?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Actually they have found that schools are not a driver of community spread. Lots of articles about that.
> 
> So why exactly are we playing safety theater with a group of individuals who have no risk?


Are you trying to be the last person to use the empty phrase "safety theater"?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No.  It would be an absurd argument and demonstrably false.  Which then raises the question of what are you trying to say when you bring up SARS and MERS?


By "It" do you mean the following?:

1) Official case tallies of the MERS and SARS outbreaks are actually gross underestimates.
2) In reality, both were global pandemics of comparable magnitude to what we have with CoV-2.
3) However, due to a relative dearth of PCR testing and (presumably) other broad-population assessments of infection, the true scale of the MERS and SARS pandemics went undetected.
4) Additionally, fatalities associated with the proposed MERS and SARS pandemics essentially did not produce a signal over the day-to-day noise of people dying of all kinds of things.
5) Therefore, the only reason anybody is making any kind of fuss over CoV-2 is that a push for PCR testing revealed the scale of it, otherwise we'd all have kept skipping down the path on our merry way.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The "whole thread" is like a thousand entries?  I don't know really -- I stopped reading when I realized the thread was still growing.
> 
> Simple lessons -- get vaccinated; get your kids vaccinated; practice safe social procedures.


....encouraged?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> 90%-
> Yes.  That is the problem.  By the definition that matters, very few places are really fully vaccinated.
> 
> But it isn‘t my definition to choose.  The threshold is whatever it is.  Do you have any reason to believe that the herd immunity threshold is anything less than 90% ?
> 
> 
> Degradation-
> I am not so worried about the gradual degradation in vaccine effectiveness.   Other vaccines also need boosters, and it never really bothered me.
> 
> Besides, there are two factors pulling in the opposite direction.  The fraction of the population that can be vaccinated will rise as we approve youth dosages.  More importantly, at some point we will have a booster which targets Delta specifically.   Between vaccinating more people and having better targeted shots, I’m not too worried about the long term plan for vaccinations.


As for boosters -- remember when we got a flu shot every year, even though it was the "same" flu year after year?  

(...except for the annual mix of new variants, and the limited life of the vaccination's power, and other things pretty much in parallel with current covid vaccine issues...)


----------



## espola

Tik and Tok -- (three parts)






						Watch trending videos for you | TikTok
					

It starts on TikTok. Join the millions of viewers discovering content and creators on TikTok - available on the web or on your mobile device.




					www.tiktok.com
				









						#duet with @scitimewithtracy  Part 3. Lightning round. #turnsoutthat #... | TikTok
					

21.7K Likes, 1.4K Comments. TikTok video from ProfTracy (@scitimewithtracy): "#duet with @scitimewithtracy  Part 3. Lightning round. #turnsoutthat #datadrivendiva #TeamofTomorrow #vaccine #misinformation #covid19".  original sound - ProfTracy.




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						#duet with @scitimewithtracy  part 2. #turnsoutthat #datadrivendiva #T... | TikTok
					

88.8K Likes, 3.5K Comments. TikTok video from ProfTracy (@scitimewithtracy): "#duet with @scitimewithtracy  part 2. #turnsoutthat #datadrivendiva #TeamofTomorrow #vaccine #misinformation #covid19".  original sound - ProfTracy.




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----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 90%-
> Yes.  That is the problem.  By the definition that matters, very few places are really fully vaccinated.
> 
> But it isn‘t my definition to choose.  The threshold is whatever it is.  Do you have any reason to believe that the herd immunity threshold is anything less than 90% ?
> 
> 
> Degradation-
> I am not so worried about the gradual degradation in vaccine effectiveness.   Other vaccines also need boosters, and it never really bothered me.
> 
> Besides, there are two factors pulling in the opposite direction.  The fraction of the population that can be vaccinated will rise as we approve youth dosages.  More importantly, at some point we will have a booster which targets Delta specifically.   Between vaccinating more people and having better targeted shots, I’m not too worried about the long term plan for vaccinations.


The problem there is you won't get to it.  First, it basically requires an admission by the US authorities that they probably goofed by having the shots too close together (which is going to tick people off but it's less than if you hide it and tick people off who later find out about it).  Second, you've got to convince all those people to take the booster.  Third, those boosters are at least initially not going to target the Delta specifically (so potentially there's a 4th shot on the table).  If you aren't there in Israel, you won't get there without some really very high handed tactics like ostracizing the people who won't get tripled vaxxed from civilized society or even dragging them kicking and screaming there.  If that's the number, and if there is vaccine degradation, you are left with either very high handed authoritarian tactics or the UK approach (the UK though spaced out their vaccines, which means like Israel it will go worse for us here).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The problem there is you won't get to it.  First, it basically requires an admission by the US authorities that they probably goofed by having the shots too close together (which is going to tick people off but it's less than if you hide it and tick people off who later find out about it).  Second, you've got to convince all those people to take the booster.  Third, those boosters are at least initially not going to target the Delta specifically (so potentially there's a 4th shot on the table).  If you aren't there in Israel, you won't get there without some really very high handed tactics like ostracizing the people who won't get tripled vaxxed from civilized society or even dragging them kicking and screaming there.  If that's the number, and if there is vaccine degradation, you are left with either very high handed authoritarian tactics or the UK approach (the UK though spaced out their vaccines, which means like Israel it will go worse for us here).


I don’t think we will get there with vaccines alone.  

25% of adults are choosing to experience Delta without getting the vaccine first.   So long as that is true, our national vaccination rate will have a very hard time getting to 90.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I don’t think we will get there with vaccines alone.
> 
> 25% of adults are choosing to experience Delta without getting the vaccine first.   So long as that is true, our national vaccination rate will have a very hard time getting to 90.


If so, and let's assume arguendo masks work remarkably well (you pick the number of transmission reduction), then why masks?  If the vaccine efficiency reduces over time, wouldn't you want those people who are responsible enough to get vaccinated to get COVID now while their vaccine protection is high.  Why then, masks, if all they'll do is prolong this?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Actually they have found that schools are not a driver of community spread. Lots of articles about that.
> 
> So why exactly are we playing safety theater with a group of individuals who have no risk?


I think those studies are all pre-delta.  And they mostly apply only to places with low community case rates.  Hard to find such places right about now,

The recent Marin school outbreak was a clear case of non-student cases cased by in-school transmission.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If so, and let's assume arguendo masks work remarkably well (you pick the number of transmission reduction), then why masks?  If the vaccine efficiency reduces over time, wouldn't you want those people who are responsible enough to get vaccinated to get COVID now while their vaccine protection is high.  Why then, masks, if all they'll do is prolong this?


Because my kid’s school has community members who cannot be vaccinated.  A mask costs me next to nothing, and helps protect them.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think those studies are all pre-delta.  And they mostly apply only to places with low community case rates.  Hard to find such places right about now,
> 
> The recent Marin school outbreak was a clear case of non-student cases cased by in-school transmission.


Don't gaslight, it was caused by an adult teacher who thought that masks provided significant "source" protection.  Don't scapegoat the children or schools to fit your narrative.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Don't gaslight, it was caused by an adult teacher who thought that masks provided significant "source" protection.  Don't scapegoat the children or schools to fit your narrative.


The adult took off her mask.  Are you saying she thought the mask was significant source protection while it was in her pocket?  Seems unlikely.

She was following your rule about not going to work when sick.  Based on what she believed, it was just allergies.   Therefore, she continued to teach.  After all, each person knows themself best.  She had years of experience with allergies, and really ought to know what allergies feel like.  

This is what you get when your sole line of defense is “stay home when sick”.   People misinterpret symptoms and infect others.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Because my kid’s school has community members who cannot be vaccinated.  A mask costs me next to nothing, and helps protect them.


That's always going to be the case.  You've laid out that your goal is zero goal (or at least your aspiration)...the means then you want to get there is perpetual masking.  Either that or at some point you say close enough....right now it's looking like at least a half more year til we get to the 5s.  So what's your close enough?  What's your off ramp?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The adult took off her mask.  Are you saying she thought the mask was significant source protection while it was in her pocket?  Seems unlikely.
> 
> She was following your rule about not going to work when sick.  Based on what she believed, it was just allergies.   Therefore, she continued to teach.  After all, each person knows themself best.  She had years of experience with allergies, and really ought to know what allergies feel like.
> 
> This is what you get when your sole line of defense is “stay home when sick”.   People misinterpret symptoms and infect others.


She got tested and continued to teach for two days.   So she at least she had a suspicion it may be Covid.  Her symptoms did progress, so yes very early on she in good faith could have thought it was allergies. 

The fact that she got tested and still worked means she thought masks provided significant protection.  That's the biggest problem, not the children.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Either that or at some point you say close enough....right now it's looking like at least a half more year til we get to the 5s. So what's your close enough? What's your off ramp?


He seems not to have an off ramp. This time last year he was forecasting doom with schools and universities. 

He is essentially making a variation of the same predictions now. 

The solution is always the same. Wear a mask that doesnt make a difference, and so on.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I don’t think we will get there with vaccines alone.
> 
> 25% of adults are choosing to experience Delta without getting the vaccine first.


25% of adults are choosing to experience a robust natural immune response to delta.


----------



## Grace T.

The Israeli study about waning vaccine immunity might not be correct.  It might be a Simpsons paradox.  

This would have some good and bad implications.  On the plus side, if it holds, we don't need to worry so much about boosters and just really need to push that first vaccination.  On the neg side, it's not so much the waning immunity which is causing the breakthroughs but the Delta itself (world may not have a choice then...UK approach or bust...short of a rapid Delta upgrade vaccine coming).









						Is Vaccine Immunity Waning? (Published 2021)
					

It may not really be waning much — which means universal booster shots may do little good.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

An explanation of the Simpson's Paradox (and why they don't have the math types make these calls either at all or by themselves in private corporations)








						Simpson’s Paradox and Interpreting Data
					

The challenge of finding the right view through data




					towardsdatascience.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The Israeli study about waning vaccine immunity might not be correct.  It might be a Simpsons paradox.
> 
> This would have some good and bad implications.  On the plus side, if it holds, we don't need to worry so much about boosters and just really need to push that first vaccination.  On the neg side, it's not so much the waning immunity which is causing the breakthroughs but the Delta itself (world may not have a choice then...UK approach or bust...short of a rapid Delta upgrade vaccine coming).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Vaccine Immunity Waning? (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> It may not really be waning much — which means universal booster shots may do little good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


It's not a Simpson's paradox.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> She got tested and continued to teach for two days.   So she at least she had a suspicion it may be Covid.  Her symptoms did progress, so yes very early on she in good faith could have thought it was allergies.
> 
> The fact that she got tested and still worked means she thought masks provided significant protection.  That's the biggest problem, not the children.


Those are some serious mental gymnastics you display there:

An unmasked, unvaccinated teacher directly infects a dozen students.  Therefore, masks are the problem?

It seems simpler to say that the problem was a teacher refusing the vaccine and not following the mask and symptom rules.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The adult took off her mask.  Are you saying she thought the mask was significant source protection while it was in her pocket?  Seems unlikely.
> 
> She was following your rule about not going to work when sick.  Based on what she believed, it was just allergies.   Therefore, she continued to teach.  After all, each person knows themself best.  She had years of experience with allergies, and really ought to know what allergies feel like.
> 
> This is what you get when your sole line of defense is “stay home when sick”.   People misinterpret symptoms and infect others.


Here's another high vaxx situation which is concerning:  Duke University.  98% teachers/students vaccinated.  Mask mandated indoors.  Weekly testing.  364 fully vaxxed, all but 8 vaxxed.  

Can I guess what the excuse is?  Duke is embedded into the larger community and they are having contact with people outside of the community?  Well, Duke is limiting students to only essential activities/shopping off campus, but that supposition would also assume there is no community spread within the Duke community (only from outside to in)....which just simply unlikely to be the case given the amount of cases, but point taken.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Those are some serious mental gymnastics you display there:
> 
> An unmasked, unvaccinated teacher directly infects a dozen students.  Therefore, masks are the problem?
> 
> It seems simpler to say that the problem was a teacher refusing the vaccine and not following the mask and symptom rules.


Why wasn't the teacher vaccinated?  Were the parents informed?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Those are some serious mental gymnastics you display there:
> 
> An unmasked, unvaccinated teacher directly infects a dozen students.  Therefore, masks are the problem?
> 
> It seems simpler to say that the problem was a teacher refusing the vaccine and not following the mask and symptom rules.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Why wasn't the teacher vaccinated?  Were the parents informed?


Straight out of the Technocratic Cult bible.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Politicians have turned Covid-19 into a moral crusade, quasi-religious in nature, creating a doomsday cult*. Masks generate fear and help keep the cultish behavior going. Lockdowns demoralize us, reducing our capacity to resist dangerous authoritarian rule. Defeating the virus is the impossible aim that keeps the cult leaders in business.

Wearing a mask and cheering on lockdowns makes people feel as if they are doing their duty, even if their actions are causing untold damage to themselves and others. All too easily they relinquish their sense of responsibility by saying that they are following government orders. They may not be entirely immune to the gross suffering caused by this but, *as cult members are prone to do, they ignore it for the ‘greater good’.

History is littered with the calamitous antics of doomsday cults. *Yet we must be the only civilization in history which thinks we can cheat death on a mass scale, destroying ourselves in the process.

*Our political class won’t help us. They are leading this delusion, described by one psychiatrist elsewhere on these pages today as a mass ‘delusional psychosis’.* We need, as he also says, to break free from cultish thinking, stop following orders and save ourselves.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Why wasn't the teacher vaccinated?  Were the parents informed?


What would the teachers vaccination status have to do with any of this?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Those are some serious mental gymnastics you display there:
> 
> An unmasked, unvaccinated teacher directly infects a dozen students.  Therefore, masks are the problem?
> 
> It seems simpler to say that the problem was a teacher refusing the vaccine and not following the mask and symptom rules.


More than likely she was following the Science you Whirling Dervishes ignore.

*George Mason University Professor Speaks Out After Challenging Anti-Science Vaccine Mandate*

George Mason University tried to penalize Zywicki for possessing the 'wrong type' of COVID immunity, but he just wasn’t having it.


*Zywicki Fought Back and Was Rewarded*
George Mason University (GMU) tried to penalize Zywicki for possessing the “wrong type” of COVID immunity, but he wasn’t having it. As a law professor beginning his 24th year teaching at Virginia’s largest four-year public university, Zywicki enjoys well-documented, robust natural immunity from COVID because he already contracted and fully recovered from the virus last year. 


“My immunologist says that my antibody level is comparable to somebody who’s been vaccinated,” Zywicki told The Federalist. “The science is quite clear that … natural immunity is at least as effective as the most effective vaccines, meaning 90-95 percent, which the Pfizer and Moderna claim they have, clearly more effective than a less effective vaccine like Johnson & Johson, which is only 66 percent. And it’s not even … a serious discussion whether it’s more protective than Sinovac and Sinopharm.” 

*Clinical studies from the Cleveland Clinic, Israel, and England support these assertions. Natural immunity is a powerful, long-lasting defense against COVID, and Zywicki said it “protects against a greater array of variants” than the vaccines on the market. The protection afforded by vaccines is reportedly waning, and breakthrough infections are spreading globally. 

When GMU tried to coerce Zywicki into getting vaccinated anyway, he had his lawyers at the New Civil Liberties Alliance file suit against GMU on his behalf. Zywicki also slammed his employer’s broad vaccine mandate via a Wall Street Journal op-ed, in which he argued that “there’s no justification for a coercive violation of [his] bodily autonomy.”*

Thanks to his willingness to stand up for his convictions, Zywicki himself won’t have to get vaccinated this fall, he won’t be subject to disciplinary action, and he’ll be able to hold office hours and attend in-person events. Zywicki must maintain six feet of distance from others and get tested for COVID on a weekly basis, however, meaning there are still strings attached to his “medical exemption.”


----------



## dad4

C


Grace T. said:


> Here's another high vaxx situation which is concerning:  Duke University.  98% teachers/students vaccinated.  Mask mandated indoors.  Weekly testing.  364 fully vaxxed, all but 8 vaxxed.
> 
> Can I guess what the excuse is?  Duke is embedded into the larger community and they are having contact with people outside of the community?  Well, Duke is limiting students to only essential activities/shopping off campus, but that supposition would also assume there is no community spread within the Duke community (only from outside to in)....which just simply unlikely to be the case given the amount of cases, but point taken.


Did they close the off campus bars?

If no, then perhaps the isolation effort was slightly more porous than you are implying.

You might look to compare the on campus rate against the off campus rate.  Even that has so many dissimilar factors I don't think it would tell you much.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> C
> 
> Did they close the off campus bars?
> 
> If no, then perhaps the isolation effort was slightly more porous than you are implying.
> 
> You might look to compare the on campus rate against the off campus rate.  Even that has so many dissimilar factors I don't think it would tell you much.


Fair, but you are basically back then to the vaccine failing to prevent infection at a startling high rate.  Also the undergrads (even if 21) aren't allowed in the bars right now....don' know about the grad students.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Why wasn't the teacher vaccinated?  Were the parents informed?


I'm guessing no because of HIPAA.  The law seems to allow employers to ask, doubt it says they can make that information public.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Conservative anti-vaccine radio talk show host succumbs to COVID
					

A conservative Florida radio host who was dead-set against taking a coronavirus vaccine is now dead. Marc Bernier died Saturday of COVID-19 after a three-week battle, his bereft radio station announced. He was 65. “It’s with great sadness that WNDB and Southern Stone Communications announce the...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

So unnecessary!









						Phil Valentine, Anti-Vax and Anti-Mask Radio Host, Dies at 61 of COVID Complications
					

Valentine had mocked the COVID-19 vaccine prior to his month-long battle with the virus




					www.thewrap.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/28/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine


----------



## espola

NOVA.Dad said:


> So unnecessary!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil Valentine, Anti-Vax and Anti-Mask Radio Host, Dies at 61 of COVID Complications
> 
> 
> Valentine had mocked the COVID-19 vaccine prior to his month-long battle with the virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thewrap.com


Morbid.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

And incase you hadn't heard:









						FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine
					

FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.




					www.fda.gov


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> He seems not to have an off ramp. This time last year he was forecasting doom with schools and universities.
> 
> He is essentially making a variation of the same predictions now.
> 
> The solution is always the same. Wear a mask that doesnt make a difference, and so on.


Not very scientific.


----------



## Multi Sport

Fully Vaccinated Woman Dies of COVID Aged 33 in Rare Breakthrough Case
					

Angelle Mosley had been convinced that she didn't have the virus because she was asymptomatic and fully vaccinated.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Multi Sport

Napa County records first death of fully vaccinated person from COVID-19
					

The woman died in early June from an infection tied to the Alpha variant first detected in the U.K. She was older than 65 and had underlying health conditions, officials said.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Multi Sport

Coronavirus Watch: COVID-19 kills fully vaccinated woman in Josephine County
					

Josephine County, Ore. -- On Saturday, Josephine County Public Health Officials announced that two more people have died from coronavirus, with one of the victims being fully vaccinated.




					www.kdrv.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

“A fundamental difference between modern dictatorships and all other tyrannies of the past is that terror is no longer used as a means to exterminate and frighten opponents but as an instrument to rule masses of people who are perfectly obedient.”

~Hannah Arendt ~ (_The Origins of Totalitarianism_, 1966)                       Baaaaaaaaaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Scientific Authoritarianism Erodes Private Property and Human Liberty 

Christopher LingleChristopher Lingle – July 29, 2021


While the emergence of a novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, and the disease that it might cause, Covid-19, are now at center stage, they share equal billing with the former only slightly in the background. *In all events, this pair of menaces offers a convenient pretense for government officials to seek expansions in their powers that give them greater control over human actions and private resources. Initially, the specter of climate change was not enough to induce most citizens to accept enhanced political power that would diminish their liberty and curtail their personal rights.

However, fear ginned up during the recent pandemic based on pronouncements reflecting “expert” authority caused individuals to stop thinking of health as a personal issue and to embrace “public health.”* The notion that “public health” reflects an objective reality must be challenged, especially since so much focus is on only one among many viruses and on only one disease among many ailments that afflict mankind.* It is troubling that these political feats of legerdemain have induced many citizens to accept an artificial collective construct, with solidarity dominating individual autonomy and security elevated over human liberty.*


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> I note we still don’t know how much of a problem asymptomatic spread really is. There has yet for example to be a really good case study on it and most of the case studies are in the low symptomatic category like this teacher. The real problem may be with people who think “it’s allergies” or a cold and go out on public with low symptoms. And if asymptomatic spread is truly a threat, the chances of the current vaccines controlling this are next to zero because the viral loads there in a symptomatic person has are likely to be higher than a completely asymptomatic person. Finally if the uk/Denmark approach is correct it really shouldn’t matter at this point


I believe the issue has always been pre-symptomatic, not asymptomatic


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> should serve as a check on you for how far down the religion rabbit hole you actually are.


If it’s religion I think you agreed to a different standard in interactions, given the emotional element.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> If it’s religion I think you agreed to a different standard in interactions, given the emotional element.


That's deep.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Acquiring natural immunity means passing through the risks of severe symptoms, hospitalization, and death.
> 
> I'll take the less effective vaccine, thank you.


Given your health concerns that is a reasonable approach until treatments are available.


----------



## met61




----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> And bringing it home to their families.  The kids were an infection vector to other parts of the community.  You forgot that part.


So are all the vaccinated people in the community. You forgot that part, either pre or possibly asymptomatic. 
Admitted anecdote, but one that seems to be repeating itself more than not…. vaccinated parent gets a mild symptomatic case and spreads to children in the household.  Not the other way around.  The teacher in this case is the same vector, adult spread.


----------



## Grace T.

I


N00B said:


> If it’s religion I think you agreed to a different standard in interactions, given the emotional element.


I’m on the do not call list for Mormon missionaries.  I broke a couple of them back in the day and they prefer it if they don’t talk to me. A few months ago two adventists approached me in the park where my son was practicing. Gave them a half hour. Broke one of them before she was shuttled away by the partner. Not exactly a hobby buts it’s something I sometimes get sucked into every now and then. It’s not that I have a problem with faith. I’m actually very faithful myself. I just believe it needs to be forged in truth and above all else without fear.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> I believe the issue has always been pre-symptomatic, not asymptomatic


Yes but most pre symptomatics like the teacher aren’t presymptomatic. It’s that humans have a tendency to not want to believe they are in fact sick and will defer to other explanations before putting up sick on the list.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> I believe the issue has always been pre-symptomatic, not asymptomatic


Yes but most pre symptomatics like the teacher aren’t really presymptomatic. It’s that humans have a tendency to not want to believe they are in fact sick and will defer to other explanations before putting up sick on the list. It’s also that we tend to feel a lot crummier more often than we care to admit.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> An unmasked, unvaccinated teacher directly infects a dozen students.  Therefore, masks are the problem?


So the unmasked teacher, while reading a book, directed air plumes of Covid to a radius of children simultaneously? 

Ok, I can’t take that implication from your prior analysis of the effectseriously in this example.

Clearly, the duration indoors in general proximity had a greater statistical impact on the viral dispersion and infection rate.

BTW, where did all the funds go that didn’t upgrade the ventilation in that facility?


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> I
> 
> 
> I’m on the do not call list for Mormon missionaries.  I broke a couple of them back in the day and they prefer it if they don’t talk to me. A few months ago two adventists approached me in the park where my son was practicing. Gave them a half hour. Broke one of them before she was shuttled away by the partner. Not exactly a hobby buts it’s something I sometimes get sucked into every now and then. It’s not that I have a problem with faith. I’m actually very faithful myself. I just believe it needs to be forged in truth and above all else without fear.


Ha!  I’m always willing to answer the door and converse for the fun of it.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> Yes but most pre symptomatics like the teacher aren’t presymptomatic. It’s that humans have a tendency to not want to believe they are in fact sick and will defer to other explanations before putting up sick on the list.


At least this teacher was waiting on test results, but you’re right about human nature for most.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> More than likely she was following the Science you Whirling Dervishes ignore.
> 
> *George Mason University Professor Speaks Out After Challenging Anti-Science Vaccine Mandate*
> 
> George Mason University tried to penalize Zywicki for possessing the 'wrong type' of COVID immunity, but he just wasn’t having it.
> 
> 
> *Zywicki Fought Back and Was Rewarded*
> George Mason University (GMU) tried to penalize Zywicki for possessing the “wrong type” of COVID immunity, but he wasn’t having it. As a law professor beginning his 24th year teaching at Virginia’s largest four-year public university, Zywicki enjoys well-documented, robust natural immunity from COVID because he already contracted and fully recovered from the virus last year.
> 
> 
> “My immunologist says that my antibody level is comparable to somebody who’s been vaccinated,” Zywicki told The Federalist. “The science is quite clear that … natural immunity is at least as effective as the most effective vaccines, meaning 90-95 percent, which the Pfizer and Moderna claim they have, clearly more effective than a less effective vaccine like Johnson & Johson, which is only 66 percent. And it’s not even … a serious discussion whether it’s more protective than Sinovac and Sinopharm.”
> 
> *Clinical studies from the Cleveland Clinic, Israel, and England support these assertions. Natural immunity is a powerful, long-lasting defense against COVID, and Zywicki said it “protects against a greater array of variants” than the vaccines on the market. The protection afforded by vaccines is reportedly waning, and breakthrough infections are spreading globally.
> 
> When GMU tried to coerce Zywicki into getting vaccinated anyway, he had his lawyers at the New Civil Liberties Alliance file suit against GMU on his behalf. Zywicki also slammed his employer’s broad vaccine mandate via a Wall Street Journal op-ed, in which he argued that “there’s no justification for a coercive violation of [his] bodily autonomy.”*
> 
> Thanks to his willingness to stand up for his convictions, Zywicki himself won’t have to get vaccinated this fall, he won’t be subject to disciplinary action, and he’ll be able to hold office hours and attend in-person events. Zywicki must maintain six feet of distance from others and get tested for COVID on a weekly basis, however, meaning there are still strings attached to his “medical exemption.”


Abuse of power has happened among men throughout recorded history and we haven't evolved in any significant way in that time. Lincoln's quote will always ring true.

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Given your health concerns that is a reasonable approach until treatments are available.


Aren't there antibody treatments available already?


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> So the unmasked teacher, while reading a book, directed air plumes of Covid to a radius of children simultaneously?
> 
> Ok, I can’t take that implication from your prior analysis of the effectseriously in this example.
> 
> Clearly, the duration indoors in general proximity had a greater statistical impact on the viral dispersion and infection rate.
> 
> BTW, where did all the funds go that didn’t upgrade the ventilation in that facility?


Yes.  The teacher, while reading a book at story time, made eye contact with every student.  

That is how story time works.  You speak towards each child in turn, so they know you care about them, and that the story is for them.

Unfortunately, in this case, eye contact also meant respiratory plume contact and covid exposure.

Probably not a ventilation problem.   The schematic showed open windows on both sides of the class.   Also, the back of the class had far fewer cases than the front.  If it were ambient buildup, the front and back would have fared the same.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I
> 
> 
> I’m on the do not call list for Mormon missionaries.  I broke a couple of them back in the day and they prefer it if they don’t talk to me. A few months ago two adventists approached me in the park where my son was practicing. Gave them a half hour. Broke one of them before she was shuttled away by the partner. Not exactly a hobby buts it’s something I sometimes get sucked into every now and then. It’s not that I have a problem with faith. I’m actually very faithful myself. I just believe it needs to be forged in truth and above all else without fear.


By "broke" you mean they gave up on you?  Or did you mean they abandoned their faith in the face of your overwhelming logic?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It’s not that I have a problem with faith. I’m actually very faithful myself. I just believe *it needs to be forged in truth and above all else without fear*.


The same could be said of great leadership.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Yes.  The teacher, while reading a book at story time, made eye contact with every student.
> 
> That is how story time works.  You speak towards each child in turn, so they know you care about them, and that the story is for them.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, eye contact also meant respiratory plume contact and covid exposure.
> 
> Probably not a ventilation problem.   The schematic showed open windows on both sides of the class.   Also, the back of the class had far fewer cases than the front.  If it were ambient buildup, the front and back would have fared the same.


Is your idea of ‘story time’ just like reading rainbow  on tv?

Yeah, they look at the camera.  In the classroom, they’re reading the words while looking at the book (even using pointer fingers to help the kids co-read along with them).


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> If it were *ambient buildup*, the front and back would have fared the same.


Not what I said, “Clearly, the *duration* indoors in general *proximity* had a greater statistical impact on the viral dispersion and infection rate.”


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Aren't there antibody treatments available already?


Technically, yes.  Do you feel comfortable with their efficacy?  If so, why ask the question?  If not… well, maybe you just missed the point.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Aren't there antibody treatments available already?





			Redirect Notice


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> By "broke" you mean they gave up on you?  Or did you mean they abandoned their faith in the face of your overwhelming logic?


No one abandons years of faith in one conversation. They merely take their first step on the journey by beginning to question it (which is exactly what they don’t want you to do). Sometimes the road leads you back to where you started but you are stronger for having questioned.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> No one abandons years of faith in one conversation. They merely take their first step on the journey by beginning to question it (which is exactly what they don’t want you to do). Sometimes the road leads you back to where you started but you are stronger for having questioned.


???


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yes.  The teacher, while reading a book at story time, made eye contact with every student.
> 
> That is how story time works.  You speak towards each child in turn, so they know you care about them, and that the story is for them.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, eye contact also meant respiratory plume contact and covid exposure.
> 
> Probably not a ventilation problem.   The schematic showed open windows on both sides of the class.   Also, the back of the class had far fewer cases than the front.  If it were ambient buildup, the front and back would have fared the same.


The mental gymnast.  Is plume your word of the week?


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> So the unmasked teacher, while reading a book, directed air plumes of Covid to a radius of children simultaneously?
> 
> Ok, I can’t take that implication from your prior analysis of the effectseriously in this example.
> 
> Clearly, the duration indoors in general proximity had a greater statistical impact on the viral dispersion and infection rate.
> 
> BTW, where did all the funds go that didn’t upgrade the ventilation in that facility?


Bingo, you can't assume it was spread when she took off the mask for a few minutes, much more likely it was the hours of prolonged exposure. 



Grace T. said:


> Yes but most pre symptomatics like the teacher aren’t really presymptomatic. It’s that humans have a tendency to not want to believe they are in fact sick and will defer to other explanations before putting up sick on the list. It’s also that we tend to feel a lot crummier more often than we care to admit.


That's why the messaging should be focused on the sick.  Instead of "space out and wear a mask" for everyone.  It should be heavy on "Don't assume it's allergies or a cold, get tested and stay home until you get a negative result.  A mask will not protect others if you are sick."


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I’m on the do not call list for Mormon missionaries.  I broke a couple of them back in the day and they prefer it if they don’t talk to me.


Don't be hard on them, they are just kids that have been indoctrinated their whole lives.  Many are not on a mission by choice and are miserable despite outward appearances.  Plus no religion can really claim the higher ground on truth.


----------



## Desert Hound

This one is for @dad4

He likes to worry about what is around the corner.

So here is some info so you can start preparing.









						New South African COVID-19 strain is the most mutated one yet: report
					

The C.1.2 strain has been linked to “increased transmissibility” and is said to have mutated the most from the original virus, which first emerged in Wuhan.




					nypost.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Don't be hard on them, they are just kids that have been indoctrinated their whole lives.  Many are not on a mission by choice and are miserable despite outward appearances.  Plus no religion can really claim the higher ground on truth.


I give them fair warning before hand. Most though are happy someone is listening to them. Your last sentence is pretty much what I’m aiming for.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> Conservative anti-vaccine radio talk show host succumbs to COVID
> 
> 
> A conservative Florida radio host who was dead-set against taking a coronavirus vaccine is now dead. Marc Bernier died Saturday of COVID-19 after a three-week battle, his bereft radio station announced. He was 65. “It’s with great sadness that WNDB and Southern Stone Communications announce the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


Pro-immune system.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Multi Sport said:


> Fully Vaccinated Woman Dies of COVID Aged 33 in Rare Breakthrough Case
> 
> 
> Angelle Mosley had been convinced that she didn't have the virus because she was asymptomatic and fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


Anti-immune system.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> BTW, where did all the funds go that didn’t upgrade the ventilation in that facility?


Marketing and Legal Counsel.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Aren't there antibody treatments available already?


Your maker provided you with antibody treatments before you popped out.  That's why you're still here Docspola.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Don't be hard on them, they are just kids that have been indoctrinated their whole lives.  Many are not on a mission by choice and are miserable despite outward appearances.  Plus no religion can really claim the higher ground on truth.


Hah!  No claims to higher ground eh?  WTF were we doing in Afghanistan for 20 years then?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Bingo, you can't assume it was spread when she took off the mask for a few minutes, much more likely it was the hours of prolonged exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why the messaging should be focused on the sick.  Instead of "space out and wear a mask" for everyone.  It should be heavy on "Don't assume it's allergies or a cold, get tested and stay home until you get a negative result.  A mask will not protect others if you are sick."


Given the pattern of those who got sick (it's in the source), it's "more likely" that those seated nearest the teacher were most at risk.  If the pattern of those infected was evenly scattered over the room, your statement would make more sense.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The deranged and dangerous straw man continues to tyrannize Australia. Two slices:



> Currently, Greater Sydney and Melbourne, and regional New South Wales and Victoria, are in various degrees of lockdown. Some of Sydney and all of Melbourne are under night-time curfew – something that has never occurred in Australia before, even under threat of Japanese invasion in 1942.
> Even lockdown-permitted exercise walks in the early spring sun are decreed anti-social. A week ago, Victorian premier Daniel Andrews said angrily, ‘Today is going to be a nice day, but stay at home. At home. Otherwise, there’ll be a lot of Sundays spent in hospital’. He’s also said Victorians venturing from home to view the sunset is a dangerous act.
> Andrews’s edict highlights how fearful Australian leaders have become of Covid – any Covid, let alone the vast infection and mortality numbers faced by Britain, Europe and North America – and how deeply restrictions on civil and personal liberties have bitten. Thousands of families, including parents and children desperate to care for and comfort loved ones seriously ill or dying, have been sundered by Berlin Wall-like state borders guarded zealously by contagion-fearing provincial politicians, as well as stopped from returning home from overseas.
> There is no talk of future freedom. Instead, Australians are told lockdowns are staying, even with vaccines widely available and vaccination rates finally accelerating. Indeed, last Sunday Andrews extended Victoria’s lockdown indefinitely, and Western Australia and Queensland premiers are using the Sydney and Melbourne outbreaks to repudiate prior commitments to end lockdowns and reopen their states once full vaccination rates reach 70-80 per cent.
> …..
> It’s Australians generally who are to blame. We wished this upon ourselves. It’s as we were a nation of toddlers, craving parental protection.
> We are the ones wanting our leaders to double down. We are the ones wanting to be told by our governments what to do and what not to do to stay safe from a virus one state health minister insisted is the most dangerous bug ever (clearly never having heard about the Black Death). *We are the ones meekly giving up our rights and freedoms to politicians who, being on the public purse, avoid the economic hunger games of prolonged lockdowns. And we are the ones turning on friends and neighbours, informing on rule and curfew breakers as if we are living in East German Stasiland.*


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I give them fair warning before hand. Most though are happy someone is listening to them. Your last sentence is pretty much what I’m aiming for.


So you are an atheist?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Redirect Notice


"Health officials reiterated the treatment is not a replacement for getting vaccinated. "


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Given the pattern of those who got sick (it's in the source), it's "more likely" that those seated nearest the teacher were most at risk.  If the pattern of those infected was evenly scattered over the room, your statement would make more sense.






A @NYT promoted @DukeU "study" claiming benefits from masks on children, didn't even have a control group.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So you are an atheist?


Nope


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> "Health officials reiterated the treatment is not a replacement for getting vaccinated. "


If you're in a car accident never admit fault.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nope


So which truths do you accept?


----------



## Grace T.

A bit of a scandal building with the resignation of the two fda officials. They seem to have resigned at least in part over the White House/fauci/cdc pressuring the fda over some actions, particularly the booster approach. Details still murky and a lot of rumor and innuendo. But if even partially true….


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So which truths do you accept?


Would not be summarized in a covid thread.  I’ll just leave it that I’m a believer but it’s complicated and god isn’t some zeusian dude with a flowing white beard. It would require a diversion into cosmology and multi universe theory as well which is far more than these pages can hold. Want to discuss?  Become a Mormon missionary.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A bit of a scandal building with the resignation of the two fda officials. They seem to have resigned at least in part over the White House/fauci/cdc pressuring the fda over some actions, particularly the booster approach. Details still murky and a lot of rumor and innuendo. But if even partially true….


I have seen news of some FDA resignations recently over the rapid approval of a controversial Alzheimer's treatment drug.  Is that what you meant?


----------



## espola

I was removed from a juror pool once when they asked if anyone had strong opinions about chiropractors.









						Florida chiropractor confronted for handing out anti-mask 'exemption' forms to kids
					

Admitting he has signed "dozens of them" a Florida chiropractor is pushing back against accusations that he is handing out no-exam medical exemptions to the parents of children who don't want their kids wearing masks in school.  	With Florida in the midst of being pummeled by the COVID-19 Delta...




					www.rawstory.com
				




How much is the fee?  Is it covered by insurance?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have seen news of some FDA resignations recently over the rapid approval of a controversial Alzheimer's treatment drug.  Is that what you meant?


Gruber and Krause.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Would not be summarized in a covid thread.  I’ll just leave it that I’m a believer but it’s complicated and god isn’t some zeusian dude with a flowing white beard. It would require a diversion into cosmology and multi universe theory as well which is far more than these pages can hold. Want to discuss?  Become a Mormon missionary.


Mormon missionary >> basement-dwelling troll - Your efforts to lift him higher are admirable .


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Is your idea of ‘story time’ just like reading rainbow  on tv?
> 
> Yeah, they look at the camera.  In the classroom, they’re reading the words while looking at the book (even using pointer fingers to help the kids co-read along with them).


Yes, school teachers make eye contact.   Not just during story time, but all day long.  It really helps.

If this were not about covid politics, you would not have gotten this wrong.  You've been in classes, and more recently you probably went to story time at the library or a sing-along with your toddler.  Teachers making eye contact is not news to you.  But something about the covid conversation made you forget it.

I think the whole discussion is turning us into politics robots instead of thinking people.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Harvard Epidemiologist Says the Case for COVID Vaccine Passports Was Just Demolished*
New research found that natural immunity offers exponentially more protection than COVID-19 vaccines.



Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

*Background* Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear.

*Methods* We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups: (1)SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, (2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and (3)previously infected _and_ single dose vaccinated individuals. Three multivariate logistic regression models were applied. In all models we evaluated four outcomes: SARS-CoV-2 infection, symptomatic disease, COVID-19-related hospitalization and death. The follow-up period of June 1 to August 14, 2021, when the Delta variant was dominant in Israel.

*Results* SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (_P_<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.

*Conclusions* *This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.*


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think the whole discussion is turning us into politics robots instead of thinking people.


The irony of this statement is completely lost on you


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Bingo, you can't assume it was spread when she took off the mask for a few minutes, much more likely it was the hours of prolonged exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why the messaging should be focused on the sick.  Instead of "space out and wear a mask" for everyone.  It should be heavy on "Don't assume it's allergies or a cold, get tested and stay home until you get a negative result.  A mask will not protect others if you are sick."


That message (Don't assume it's allergies or a cold.  Get tested and stay home.) is very helpful.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The irony of this statement is completely lost on you


No.  I chose that wording for a reason.
.
Include yourself with us.  You gave a thumbs up to someone saying teachers don't make eye contact.

Think about that for a second.   You gave a thumbs up to someone telling a teacher that teachers don't make eye contact.

That is not a strong position to support.  The discussion is rotting your brain right along with mine.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Would not be summarized in a covid thread.  I’ll just leave it that I’m a believer but it’s complicated and god isn’t some zeusian dude with a flowing white beard. It would require a diversion into cosmology and multi universe theory as well which is far more than these pages can hold. Want to discuss?  Become a Mormon missionary.


So you are a Scientologist?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Gruber and Krause.


Reuters says "The memo did not give a reason for Gruber’s or Krause’s departures."

So did you just make up the political points?  Or are you believing someone else?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Yes, school teachers make eye contact.   *Not just during story time, but all day long*.  It really helps.
> 
> If this were not about covid politics, *you *would not have gotten this wrong.


So you’re sticking with the brief ‘maskless’ interaction which by itself wouldn’t even qualify as a close-contact by CDC definition as the causal element in this situation?

Seriously?  Occam would like to remind you that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So you are a Scientologist?


funny


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No.  I chose that wording for a reason.
> .
> Include yourself with us.  You gave a thumbs up to someone saying teachers don't make eye contact.
> 
> Think about that for a second.   You gave a thumbs up to someone telling a teacher that teachers don't make eye contact.
> 
> That is not a strong position to support.  The discussion is rotting your brain right along with mine.


Granted.

But here's how far down the rabbit hole you are. I don't even remember which post you are talking about nor do I really care (the system doesn't allow you to upvote parts and downvote others of a post).  But you are monitoring who is giving thumbs up to who.  Here's another little tid bit to blow your mind: who are your most vehement supporters?  How do you feel about the company you keep?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> funny


There is no concrete evidence of multi universes.  There are proposed solutions to Einstein's general relativity theory attempting to explain the singularities in the interior of black holes that can be solved in ways consistent with a multi-universe result, but there multiple other solutions to those equations that do not depend on that fiction.

Dr. R. P. Feynman made his reputation by "solving" some of the quantum mechanics equations that appeared to have infinite singularities simply by substituting for those singularities the known measured values of physical objects and effects where it seemed to be appropriate.  To the best of my knowledge, no one has made a similar concrete case for multiple universes.

However, that doesn't stop Hollywood moviemakers, thus my question about Scientology.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> So you’re sticking with the brief ‘maskless’ interaction which by itself wouldn’t even qualify as a close-contact by CDC definition as the causal element in this situation?
> 
> Seriously?  Occam would like to remind you that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.


“*the* causal element”?   Why would I assume that the explanations are mutually exclusive?  Simpler to say that the unmasked story time added risk, and being indoors with other people also added risk.

Delta is more transmissible.  A 20 minute unmasked storytime seems plenty long to transmit covid.   7 hours masked in a ventilated room also seems plenty long to transmit covid.   One does not preclude the other.  She should not have gone to work with allergies AND she should not have taken off her mask.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> Hah!  No claims to higher ground eh?  WTF were we doing in Afghanistan for 20 years then?


Yes, the problem is that many do claim the higher ground which is causing problems all over the world (I find it incredibly ironic that any do).  Religion in Afghanistan is much more compelling to the Afghans (actually the whole middle east) than Westernization.   Our government seems to have trouble understanding that principle.


----------



## Desert Hound

The following chart shows you how far from reality we have moved. 

The understanding of actual risk is not there for a substantial portion of our population. 

Note the risk of dying from various disease vs covid. Then note that we all the rest we live and don't even bat an eye. 

Our press/politicians have taken covid out of context so to speak and are creating policies that do not line up with actual risk.

Look at the various outcomes we don't bat an eye with. Then look where covid ranks. 

So many people detached from reality.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> That message (Don't assume it's allergies or a cold.  Get tested and stay home.) is very helpful.


It's not going to solve the problem, but I think its better messaging than what we currently have.  Can I get you to buy-in on the second part, if I changed it to "Don't assume that a mask will protect others if you're sick".


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The following chart shows you how far from reality we have moved.
> 
> The understanding of actual risk is not there for a substantial portion of our population.
> 
> Note the risk of dying from various disease vs covid. Then note that we all the rest we live and don't even bat an eye.
> 
> Our press/politicians have taken covid out of context so to speak and are creating policies that do not line up with actual risk.
> 
> Look at the various outcomes we don't bat an eye with. Then look where covid ranks.
> 
> So many people detached from reality.
> 
> View attachment 11560


While I like this chart, I suspect these are lifetime odds which may overstate the current risks of many of the causes and understate the risks from Covid (*relatively speaking*);  although the risks of Covid are still very small,  and nearly non-existent for many age groups.

The risks of getting hit by lightning are nearly zero; however, if I'm out in a lightning storm my odds increase dramatically (relatively speaking).  My lifetime risks of getting hospitalized by Covid are infinitesimal, but are relatively higher during a Covid pandemic.  The risk of cancer is effectively always out there our entire lifetime.

It would be more appropriate to look at the current risk on a annual basis.  I eyeballed that a number of months ago, and overall Covid was in the top ten.  If you broke it down by age group it would plummet down the list as you looked at the younger age groups.

I obviously agree with you 100% in principle, I just think the chart is a little misleading.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I suspect these are lifetime odds


Yes they are lifetime odds.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I eyeballed that a number of months ago, and overall Covid was in the top ten. If you broke it down by age group it would plummet down the list as you looked at the younger age groups.


Well most people have no risk of covid. 

But the point remains. If covid currently is in the top 10 ...we still easily live life with the other 9. In other words we accept the risk and move on. We make no attempt to micromanage people's lives. And we certainly do not do so with younger age groups.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Yes, the problem is that many do claim the higher ground which is causing problems all over the world (I find it incredibly ironic that any do).  Religion in Afghanistan is much more compelling to the Afghans (actually the whole middle east) than Westernization.   *Our government seems to have trouble understanding that principle.*


They know.  They see opposition to western ideology as profit.  Nothing makes more money than intervention.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's not going to solve the problem, but I think its better messaging than what we currently have.  Can I get you to buy-in on the second part, if I changed it to "Don't assume that a mask will protect others if you're sick".


The “if you’re sick” clause gives me a ton of wiggle room to lie to myself about what exactly my runny nose means.

And “don’t assume that a mask will protect others” openly discourages a useful public health measure.

What you have created is a chimera of two bad public health messages.


----------



## what-happened

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-31/two-top-vaccine-regulators-to-leave-us-fda
		


Let the speculation begin.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-31/two-top-vaccine-regulators-to-leave-us-fda
> 
> 
> 
> Let the speculation begin.


Grace already started (or copied someone else's speculation).


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-31/two-top-vaccine-regulators-to-leave-us-fda
> 
> 
> 
> Let the speculation begin.


The rumors circulating around the twitterverse is that they got tired of being pushed around by the white house/CDC/Fauci....the white house getting ahead of the booster thing was the last straw coming after 2 presidents playing ping pong with the FDA.  Again, totally unconfirmed rumors..worth as much.


----------



## Grace T.

This is also making its way around the twitterverse


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432424163311071238


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> The discussion is rotting your brain right along with mine.


This is one of the larger consequences, and, almost certainly, intents, of the infodemic.  To create an information space where there is no rational way to arbitrate one statement or position from another.  At that point, any data driven assessment or quantitative metric can be used as just another weapon in a political dynamic that amplifies division, chips away common ground.  For example, in the 1918 flu pandemic masks had their vocal proponents and opponents, just like today.  But those positions weren't as overtly political as they are now.  So why the difference? Disinformation is probably as old as warfare.  But the new tools offer new means of execution.  Research link => over-simplistic summary without context, a snippet, a fragment => policy statement => diametrically opposed political positions.  My link against your link. Sound familiar?  Likely just a warm up.  Media mouthpiece R puts up one election map, media mouthpiece D puts up a different one.  Who's to say which one is right and which one is wrong?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The “if you’re sick” clause gives me a ton of wiggle room to lie to myself about what exactly my runny nose means.
> 
> And “don’t assume that a mask will protect others” openly discourages a useful public health measure.
> 
> What you have created is a chimera of two bad public health messages.


Well there is nothing we can do about the first line.  There is no guarantee that people follow messaging whether it's my preferred messaging or yours.   So that's not a valid criticism,  just reality regardless of the protocols.

Your second line is pure overselling of masks.  Which is more effective at preventing the spread, telling everyone sick and healthy that masks provide significant protection, or telling sick people not to assume masks will prevent you from transmitting the virus?  Obviously its the latter.  Blanket approaches obscure the problem which is sick people spreading the virus.

Your third line would require me to look up the exact meaning of chimera, so I'm going to abstain from providing an opinion.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The rumors circulating around the twitterverse is that they got tired of being pushed around by the white house/CDC/Fauci....the white house getting ahead of the booster thing was the last straw coming after 2 presidents playing ping pong with the FDA.  Again, totally unconfirmed rumors..worth as much.


...and you repeat them.  For what purpose?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> While I like this chart, I suspect these are lifetime odds which may overstate the current risks of many of the causes and understate the risks from Covid (*relatively speaking*);  although the risks of Covid are still very small,  and nearly non-existent for many age groups.
> 
> The risks of getting hit by lightning are nearly zero; however, if I'm out in a lightning storm my odds increase dramatically (relatively speaking).  My lifetime risks of getting hospitalized by Covid are infinitesimal, but are relatively higher during a Covid pandemic.  The risk of cancer is effectively always out there our entire lifetime.
> 
> It would be more appropriate to look at the current risk on a annual basis.  I eyeballed that a number of months ago, and overall Covid was in the top ten.  If you broke it down by age group it would plummet down the list as you looked at the younger age groups.
> 
> I obviously agree with you 100% in principle, I just think the chart is a little misleading.



Number of deaths for leading causes of death

Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
Source: Mortality in the United States, 2019, data table for figure 2


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> ...and you repeat them.  For what purpose?


It's interesting...FDA officials don't tend to resign out of the blue (let alone in pairs) and this type of thing has really only moved towards normalization in the last 2 administrations.  What's even more interesting is it contrasts with some generals which now that the mission is over should have resigned or been fired but so far haven't been.

Yeah, I know, it's much more interesting to speculate why Messi left Barcelona or why Ronaldo went to Manchester or whether De Gea is going to stay No.1


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> They know.  They see opposition to western ideology as profit.  Nothing makes more money than intervention.


I'm cynical of our government, but I'm just not there yet.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is one of the larger consequences, and, almost certainly, intents, of the infodemic.  To create an information space where there is no rational way to arbitrate one statement or position from another.  At that point, any data driven assessment or quantitative metric can be used as just another weapon in a political dynamic that amplifies division, chips away common ground.  For example, in the 1918 flu pandemic masks had their vocal proponents and opponents, just like today.  But those positions weren't as overtly political as they are now.  So why the difference? Disinformation is probably as old as warfare.  But the new tools offer new means of execution.  Research link => over-simplistic summary without context, a snippet, a fragment => policy statement => diametrically opposed political positions.  My link against your link. Sound familiar?  Likely just a warm up.  Media mouthpiece R puts up one election map, media mouthpiece D puts up a different one.  Who's to say which one is right and which one is wrong?


At the end of the day guns determine what is right.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is one of the larger consequences, and, almost certainly, intents, of the infodemic.  To create an information space where there is no rational way to arbitrate one statement or position from another.  At that point, any data driven assessment or quantitative metric can be used as just another weapon in a political dynamic that amplifies division, chips away common ground.  For example, in the 1918 flu pandemic masks had their vocal proponents and opponents, just like today.  But those positions weren't as overtly political as they are now.  So why the difference? Disinformation is probably as old as warfare.  But the new tools offer new means of execution.  Research link => over-simplistic summary without context, a snippet, a fragment => policy statement => diametrically opposed political positions.  My link against your link. Sound familiar?  Likely just a warm up.  Media mouthpiece R puts up one election map, media mouthpiece D puts up a different one.  Who's to say which one is right and which one is wrong?


I like the third approach.  It's been blindly trust the experts v. think for yourself.  You are proposing there's no reasonable way to get to "truth".  What consequences flow from there?  You made me think.

It was the US's great misfortune to have this caught up in an election year.  Remember the historical context: Trump may very well have believed a minimalist approach was the right way to go, but he was also enormously self interested in trying to right the economy and make this go away (or at least with the promise to make it go away, with the vaccines) before the election.  The left was determined to do what it took to get him out of office, since in their mind he was a threat almost as large or larger than COVID (depending on who you spoke to).  Throw in the blatant political bias of the media and certain health officers (remember the pass some of them gave the BLM protests but not the churches?).  Then add fundamental issues about freedom, health and safety.  Realize that we have a federal system of government with Trump unable to tell California to open up, or Biden unable to order Florida to mask up.  Finally, throw in a healthy dose of panic, fueled by the media, and it was always going to be a shit show.

Our form of government, in the current political age (where red and blue disagree fundamentally about even the way the world operates), just simply isn't made for this.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I like the third approach.  It's been blindly trust the experts v. think for yourself.  You are proposing there's no reasonable way to get to "truth".  What consequences flow from there?  You made me think.
> 
> It was the US's great misfortune to have this caught up in an election year.  Remember the historical context: Trump may very well have believed a minimalist approach was the right way to go, but he was also enormously self interested in trying to right the economy and make this go away (or at least with the promise to make it go away, with the vaccines) before the election.  The left was determined to do what it took to get him out of office, since in their mind he was a threat almost as large or larger than COVID (depending on who you spoke to).  Throw in the blatant political bias of the media and certain health officers (remember the pass some of them gave the BLM protests but not the churches?).  Then add fundamental issues about freedom, health and safety.  Realize that we have a federal system of government with Trump unable to tell California to open up, or Biden unable to order Florida to mask up.  Finally, throw in a healthy dose of panic, fueled by the media, and it was always going to be a shit show.
> 
> Our form of government, in the current political age (where red and blue disagree fundamentally about even the way the world operates), just simply isn't made for this.


You're babbling.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're babbling.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"....my favorite part is when you yell "Roadhog!"


----------



## Grace T.

A very good summary by Dr. John Campbell of the European scientific thinking on where COVID is right now.  It's very different than the US approach.  Basically Europe is coming around to the idea that herd immunity is impossible and we need to stop mass testing....debate still ranging over boosters v. natural immunity....children probably don't need vaccines mandated.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well there is nothing we can do about the first line.  There is no guarantee that people follow messaging whether it's my preferred messaging or yours.   So that's not a valid criticism,  just reality regardless of the protocols.
> 
> Your second line is pure overselling of masks.  Which is more effective at preventing the spread, telling everyone sick and healthy that masks provide significant protection, or telling sick people not to assume masks will prevent you from transmitting the virus?  Obviously its the latter.  Blanket approaches obscure the problem which is sick people spreading the virus.
> 
> Your third line would require me to look up the exact meaning of chimera, so I'm going to abstain from providing an opinion.


Your complaint is the message, not the messaging.

You want to be told you don't have to wear the mask.  That is not the advice which you have been given.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You want to be told you don't have to wear the mask.  That is not the advice which you have been given.


Not even remotely close to what I'm saying, but you know that.  Not sure why I bother since you can't debate without mischaracterizing my position.

All I want is a more targeted approach on those that are sick (since the non-infected can't spread the disease) and some honesty about which protective measure(s) is most effective for preventing the spread from an infected person, which is not masks.   Like I've said many times, which you choose to ignore, I don't have a big issue with adults wearing a mask as long as were honest that there not a panacea, and aware of their limitations.  I do believe that there is not a compelling reason benefit (vs costs) for children to wear masks.   You, or others, fear of children and Covid are not compelling reasons.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> You are proposing there's no reasonable way to get to "truth".


It's more about taking advantage of polarization so that information that has intrinsic uncertainty can be distorted to be either true or false, black or white, supportive of position A or position B.  It is then simply plugged into the increasingly incompatible views of the world that we have already come to believe.  Science is really just about finding tenable solutions to increasing complex problems.  My sink is backed up, where's the clog?  That's science.  It's just information.  It's not meant to be an abitrator of truth or lies.  For example, I find it remarkable that a relatively small cohort study out of Isreal uploaded to a preprint service about a week ago has already been linked-just on our small soccer forum site-three times, apparently without people realizing they are linking the same study.  It just shows up in their feed or something I guess. As I posted in my critique of it, the conclusions of that study are narrowly focused and based on ~250 cases out of ~65,000 individual studied.  A central message is that, regardless of viral or vaccine immune priming, infections with delta in both the Israeli cohorts were rare.  However, because of the way the cases binned between the cohorts-which could either be an artifact or informative-the study shows up supporting something like (from this morning) "new research found that natural immunity offers exponentially more protection than COVID-19 vaccines", or, if phrased in a more nuanced way, the protection of vaccines is waning.  When in reality the study, if it shows anything, the study shows that the vaccines are holding up well with perhaps a decline is a very small set of people.  And it is unfortunate, in my view, that Science chose to amplify such a piece, which has also been linked on this site.  Once directly and once indirectly through a double click that incorrectly attributed it to Scientific American.  So, somewhere, somebody is taking the trouble to find this stuff and mis-frame it in specific ways. 



Grace T. said:


> Our form of government, in the current political age (where red and blue disagree fundamentally about even the way the world operates), just simply isn't made for this.


The republic has had issues from the beginning and it's true we largely got to this point on our own.  But the process is also being abetted.  If we prove incapable of managing our affairs, alternatives will arise spontaneously or be imposed upon us.  

I could be wrong.  Maybe we are all just arguing like old married people.  But it feels different.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's more about taking advantage of polarization so that information that has intrinsic uncertainty can be distorted to be either true or false, black or white, supportive of position A or position B.  It is then simply plugged into the increasingly incompatible views of the world that we have already come to believe.  Science is really just about finding tenable solutions to increasing complex problems.  My sink is backed up, where's the clog?  That's science.  It's just information.  It's not meant to be an abitrator of truth or lies.  For example, I find it remarkable that a relatively small cohort study out of Isreal uploaded to a preprint service about a week ago has already been linked-just on our small soccer forum site-three times, apparently without people realizing they are linking the same study.  It just shows up in their feed or something I guess. As I posted in my critique of it, the conclusions of that study are narrowly focused and based on ~250 cases out of ~65,000 individual studied.  A central message is that, regardless of viral or vaccine immune priming, infections with delta in both the Israeli cohorts were rare.  However, because of the way the cases binned between the cohorts-which could either be an artifact or informative-the study shows up supporting something like (from this morning) "new research found that natural immunity offers exponentially more protection than COVID-19 vaccines", or, if phrased in a more nuanced way, the protection of vaccines is waning.  When in reality the study, if it shows anything, the study shows that the vaccines are holding up well with perhaps a decline is a very small set of people.  And it is unfortunate, in my view, that Science chose to amplify such a piece, which has also been linked on this site.  Once directly and once indirectly through a double click that incorrectly attributed it to Scientific American.  So, somewhere, somebody is taking the trouble to find this stuff and mis-frame it in specific ways.
> 
> 
> 
> The republic has had issues from the beginning and it's true we largely got to this point on our own.  But the process is also being abetted.  If we prove incapable of managing our affairs, alternatives will arise spontaneously or be imposed upon us.
> 
> I could be wrong.  Maybe we are all just arguing like old married people.  But it feels different.


I hear your criticism of the study.  I posted one as well.  It's an important piece though.  The entire Fauci/Israeli approach of boosters is predicated on that study.  It's also where dad4's masks and vaccine passports flow from....because if you go that route, you need to keep up protection which means you have to protect people for a while as best you can until they can get the additional protection.  If you don't believe the study, you just shrug like Europe is (summarized in the Campbell piece), acknowledge everyone is going to get it, get boosters for the most vulnerable, but otherwise lift restrictions and go about your business.  

I also agrees it feels different.  Basic world outlooks are different between the two camps.  One side wants to make stew, the other side wants to make soup, and they both can't have their way.

Thoughtful post, even if it is colored by same of the same criticism your are leveling.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I hear your criticism of the study.  I posted one as well.  It's an important piece though.  The entire Fauci/Israeli approach of boosters is predicated on that study.  It's also where dad4's masks and vaccine passports flow from....because if you go that route, you need to keep up protection which means you have to protect people for a while as best you can until they can get the additional protection.  If you don't believe the study, you just shrug like Europe is (summarized in the Campbell piece), acknowledge everyone is going to get it, get boosters for the most vulnerable, but otherwise lift restrictions and go about your business.
> 
> I also agrees it feels different.  Basic world outlooks are different between the two camps.  One side wants to make stew, the other side wants to make soup, and they both can't have their way.
> 
> Thoughtful post, even if it is colored by same of the same criticism your are leveling.


Correcting one thing I've been wrong about...the UK is not a unitary state and has devolved much of its powers to 3 of the constituent kingdoms of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.  While England has dropped most restrictions, Scotland has retained masks in schools, public transportation and certain indoor venues.  Vaccination in Scotland is just under 70% for double dose, 76% for single (total percent of pop...adults are over 90% now single dose).  Yet see below re cases.  I'm sure dad4 will either say they aren't masking hard enough or they don't have enough vaccination yet









						Face mask use in Scotland could stay through winter, says minister
					

John Swinney says coverings will remain ‘a part of our lives’, as Covid restrictions are further lifted




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Covid in Scotland: The latest cases
					

A weekly update on Covid-19 cases, hospital admissions and deaths in Scotland.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> I hear your criticism of the study.  I posted one as well.  It's an important piece though.  The entire Fauci/Israeli approach of boosters is predicated on that study.  It's also where dad4's masks and vaccine passports flow from....because if you go that route, you need to keep up protection which means you have to protect people for a while as best you can until they can get the additional protection.  If you don't believe the study, you just shrug like Europe is (summarized in the Campbell piece), acknowledge everyone is going to get it, get boosters for the most vulnerable, but otherwise lift restrictions and go about your business.
> 
> I also agrees it feels different.  Basic world outlooks are different between the two camps.  One side wants to make stew, the other side wants to make soup, and they both can't have their way.
> 
> Thoughtful post, even if it is colored by same of the same criticism your are leveling.


It's not about believing it or not believing it.  Sort of the point.  What does this study-or any study-show, and to what level of confidence can the data be interpreted?  If you feel nation state policy should be underpinned by one small study that rests of 250 cases I'll leave you to it.  Next week it will be on to something else.  I see the issue of where the misappropriation is coming from, what larger actors are driving it, and how it filters down to end users like us here on this forum and elsewhere as a more relevant focus.  Call it cynical if you will.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Not even remotely close to what I'm saying, but you know that.  Not sure why I bother since you can't debate without mischaracterizing my position.
> 
> All I want is a more targeted approach on those that are sick (since the non-infected can't spread the disease) and some *honesty about which protective measure(s) is most effective for preventing the spread from an infected person, which is not masks. *  Like I've said many times, which you choose to ignore, I don't have a big issue with adults wearing a mask as long as were honest that there not a panacea, and aware of their limitations.  I do believe that there is not a compelling reason benefit (vs costs) for children to wear masks.   You, or others, fear of children and Covid are not compelling reasons.


Read your post.  You are asking for the public health message to say something specific.

As it stands, the public health establishment disagrees with you.  They cannot tell you that masks are not effective because they do not believe that to be true.

They aren’t being dishonest.  They are telling you something you don’t want to hear.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A very good summary by Dr. John Campbell of the European scientific thinking on where COVID is right now.  It's very different than the US approach.  Basically Europe is coming around to the idea that herd immunity is impossible and we need to stop mass testing....debate still ranging over boosters v. natural immunity....children probably don't need vaccines mandated.


I have discovered that watching Campbell's videos on youtube at 1.5x playback speed actually makes them more pleasant.

Summary -- we're all going to be exposed to the virus at some point, so prepare by getting vaccinated.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Read your post.  You are asking for the public health message to say something specific.
> 
> As it stands, the public health establishment disagrees with you.  They cannot tell you that masks are not effective because they do not believe that to be true.
> 
> They aren’t being dishonest.  They are telling you something you don’t want to hear.


I can't believe you are so far down the mask hole that you can't even realizing that what you are saying by leveling this criticism is that masks are more effective tool than sick/symptomatic people, you know, staying home.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> If you don't believe the study, you just shrug like Europe is (summarized in the Campbell piece), acknowledge everyone is going to get it, get boosters for the most vulnerable, but otherwise lift restrictions and go about your business.


Funny how that works. 

That is essentially what a lot of people (scientists as well) have advocated from the start. That is protect the vulnerable if possible and let the rest of people live their life. Restrictions don't work. 

It is only taking 20 or so months for more and more people/countries to come across this rather obvious realization.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If you feel nation state policy should be underpinned by one small study that rests of 250 cases I'll leave you to it.  Next week it will be on to something else.  I see the issue of where the misappropriation is coming from, what larger actors are driving it, and how it filters down to end users like us here on this forum and elsewhere as a more relevant focus.  Call it cynical if you will.


I certainly don't feel that way.  It's one of the reservations I've had re the booster/Israeli approach v. the English/natural immunity approach.  But certain people, notably Fauci/Gottlieb/& associates and the Israelis, certainly do since it's justification for the approach they seem hellbent on taking.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how that works.
> 
> That is essentially what a lot of people (scientists as well) have advocated from the start. That is protect the vulnerable if possible and let the rest of people live their life. Restrictions don't work.
> 
> It is only taking 20 or so months for more and more people/countries to come across this rather obvious realization.


It's funny that Campbell is one of them, as he certainly seems increasingly sympathetic to the English approach.  He was very rah rah about lockdowns, exponential virus growth, and masks at the start of this.  Those of us on Team Reality that followed him early on referred to him as "Doctor Doom".


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Read your post.  You are asking for the public health message to say something specific.
> 
> As it stands, the public health establishment disagrees with you.  They cannot tell you that masks are not effective because they do not believe that to be true.
> 
> They aren’t being dishonest.  They are telling you something you don’t want to hear.


Let me ask you a question, would you tell your kids that the "rhythm method" is "significantly effective" against pregnancy and recommend it as a form of contraception?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I can't believe you are so far down the mask hole that you can't even realizing that what you are saying by leveling this criticism is that masks are more effective tool than sick/symptomatic people, you know, staying home.


Who said I have to pick just one?

You are putting forward two, non mutually exclusive strategies.  

1- stay at home if you display any of the following symptoms….
2- wear a mask when indoors or near others.

Ok.  I choose both.  Those are two good ideas.  Along those lines:

3- get vaccinated.
4- stay outside for social gatherings.
5- avoid unnecessary travel.

I feel like I am rewriting the CDC advice for you.  Do I need to remind you that doing item 7 on their list does not mean that you can skip item 5?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> He was very rah rah about lockdowns, exponential virus growth, and masks at the start of this.


At least he is intellectually honest enough to admit that data has now taken him to another place.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> “*the* causal element”? Why would I assume that the explanations are mutually exclusive?…
> 
> …One does not preclude the other.  She should not have gone to work with allergies AND she should not have taken off her mask.


*Sigh*

Because the cause is going to work sick.  Without that cause, the mask and ‘plumes’ are irrelevant.  You know, a causal relationship.

If p, then q.

You can play with the contrapositive if you like

If not q, then not p.  Do the implications of that with your AND operational hold to your narrative?

If kids don’t get sick, then not wearing a mask AND not going to work sick is the reason…. Oopps


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Because the cause is going to work sick.  Without that cause, the mask and ‘plumes’ are irrelevant.  You know, a causal relationship.
> 
> If p, then q.
> 
> You can play with the contrapositive if you like
> 
> If not q, then not p.  Do the implications of that with your AND operational hold to your narrative?
> 
> If kids don’t get sick, then not wearing a mask AND not going to work sick is the reason…. Oopps


It sort of depends on how good you think your neighbor is at identifying when he is beginning to get sick.   So far, I think we stink at it.  

If you can convince everyone to stop ignoring mild flu symptoms, more power to you.  

But, until then, I want a backup plan.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Who said I have to pick just one?
> 
> You are putting forward two, non mutually exclusive strategies.
> 
> 1- stay at home if you display any of the following symptoms….
> 2- wear a mask when indoors or near others.
> 
> Ok.  I choose both.  Those are two good ideas.  Along those lines:
> 
> 3- get vaccinated.
> 4- stay outside for social gatherings.
> 5- avoid unnecessary travel.
> 
> I feel like I am rewriting the CDC advice for you.  Do I need to remind you that doing item 7 on their list does not mean that you can skip item 5?


Again the implication you challenged was which was is more effective.

And if you go with the England approach, you want 3 (for those that haven't had it yet) but otherwise1-5 are contraindicated.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's more about taking advantage of polarization so that information that has intrinsic uncertainty can be distorted to be either true or false, black or white, supportive of position A or position B.  It is then simply plugged into the increasingly incompatible views of the world that we have already come to believe.  Science is really just about finding tenable solutions to increasing complex problems.  My sink is backed up, where's the clog?  That's science.  It's just information.  It's not meant to be an abitrator of truth or lies.  For example, I find it remarkable that a relatively small cohort study out of Isreal uploaded to a preprint service about a week ago has already been linked-just on our small soccer forum site-three times, apparently without people realizing they are linking the same study.  It just shows up in their feed or something I guess. As I posted in my critique of it, the conclusions of that study are narrowly focused and based on ~250 cases out of ~65,000 individual studied.  A central message is that, regardless of viral or vaccine immune priming, infections with delta in both the Israeli cohorts were rare.  However, because of the way the cases binned between the cohorts-which could either be an artifact or informative-the study shows up supporting something like (from this morning) "new research found that natural immunity offers exponentially more protection than COVID-19 vaccines", or, if phrased in a more nuanced way, the protection of vaccines is waning.  When in reality the study, if it shows anything, the study shows that the vaccines are holding up well with perhaps a decline is a very small set of people.  And it is unfortunate, in my view, that Science chose to amplify such a piece, which has also been linked on this site.  Once directly and once indirectly through a double click that incorrectly attributed it to Scientific American.  So, somewhere, somebody is taking the trouble to find this stuff and mis-frame it in specific ways.
> 
> 
> 
> The republic has had issues from the beginning and it's true we largely got to this point on our own.  But the process is also being abetted.  If we prove incapable of managing our affairs, alternatives will arise spontaneously or be imposed upon us.
> 
> I could be wrong.  Maybe we are all just arguing like old married people.  But it feels different.


But not quite Aussie-ish at the moment.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

dad4 said:


> Who said I have to pick just one?
> 
> You are putting forward two, non mutually exclusive strategies.
> 
> 1- stay at home if you display any of the following symptoms….
> 2- wear a mask when indoors or near others.
> 
> Ok.  I choose both.  Those are two good ideas.  Along those lines:
> 
> 3- get vaccinated.
> 4- stay outside for social gatherings.
> 5- avoid unnecessary travel.
> 
> I feel like I am rewriting the CDC advice for you.  Do I need to remind you that doing item 7 on their list does not mean that you can skip item 5?


Easy to understand, easy to follow...common sense.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how that works.
> 
> That is essentially what a lot of people (scientists as well) have advocated from the start. That is protect the vulnerable if possible and let the rest of people live their life. Restrictions don't work.
> 
> It is only taking 20 or so months for more and more people/countries to come across this rather obvious realization.



Great Barrington Declaration 

As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. *We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. *
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 

Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 

Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Co-signers
Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, *former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant *professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Just in case you "one size fits all folks" think that your kind has not been wrong before:

… is from pages 162-163 of F.A. Hayek’s profound 1952 book _The Counter-Revolution of Science_, as this book appears as part of volume 13 (_Studies on the Abuse & Decline of Reason_, Bruce Caldwell, ed. [2010]) of the _Collected Works of F.A. Hayek_:

_





The problem of securing an efficient use of our resources is thus very largely one of how that knowledge of the particular circumstances of the moment can be most effectively utilised; and the task which faces the designer of a rational order of society is to find a method whereby this widely dispersed knowledge may best be drawn upon. It is begging the question to describe the task, as is usually done, as one of effectively using the ‘available’ resources to satisfy ‘existing’ needs. Neither the ‘available’ resources nor the ‘existing’ needs are objective facts in the sense of those with which the engineer deals in his limited field: they can never be directly known in all relevant detail to a single planning body. Resources and needs exist for practical purposes only through somebody knowing about them, and there will always be infinitely more known to all the people together than can be known to the most competent authority….

It is important to remember in this connection that the statistical aggregates, upon which it is often suggested, the central authority could rely in its decisions, are always arrived at by a deliberate disregard of the peculiar circumstances of time and place._

*DBx*: Hayek here summarizes his justly famous criticism, elaborated in his September 1945 _American Economic Review_ paper, “The Use of Knowledge in Society,” of that conception of ‘the economic problem’ in which all the countless human preferences competing for satisfaction, as well as all the available means _and their relative availabilities_, are “given” facts that, at least in principle, can be known and processed by a single mind.

Every person who proposes to arrange to better satisfy human desires by obstructing the competitive price-system’s process of allocating resources must answer this question: How, exactly, will the authority charged with forcibly obstructing the market process acquire the knowledge that that authority must acquire if the allocation of resources that it brings about will indeed be one that better satisfies human desires?

That an advocate of obstructing market processes can explain how some market intervention will better satisfy the preferences of a particular favored group is incontestable, just as it’s incontestable that if I’m allowed to rob you I’m made better off. What must instead be explained is how the proposed market intervention will yield a use of resources that increases the likelihood that any randomly chosen person in the affected society will over time be better able to satisfy his or her consumption preferences – will, in short, have a higher standard of living.

No advocate of obstructing market processes has yet explained how the central authority that is necessary to carry out the intervention will acquire this knowledge. Typically, this ‘knowledge problem’ is not even recognized. And when it is recognized, it’s dismissed – usually blithely – as one that can be overcome with the growth in computing power or with the improvement in statistical methods (or, usually, both).

But these dismissals arise from an utter failure to understand the kinds of knowledge that create the ‘knowledge problem.’ This knowledge is necessarily widely dispersed across millions of different minds; it’s typically very localized (such as what are the options available to deal with the fact that a machine in some factory in Birmingham, Alabama, just broke down); is constantly changing; and is often in internal conflict (as when a merchant believes herself to have found a profitable opportunity to sell electrical wiring to a factory not knowing that a cargo ship carrying the electrical wiring is delayed). And never mind knowledge of the subjective consumption preferences of each of the hundreds of millions of people.

*From advocates of full-on socialism to advocates of industrial policy to advocates of using a handful of protective tariffs and subsidies, all as a means of improving the performance of the national economy, this ‘knowledge problem’ looms. To be taken seriously, they must offer a compelling explanation of how the market-intervening authority will acquire this knowledge of time, place, and circumstance. To date, they haven’t come close to meeting this requirement.*


----------



## espola

Calling Dr Darwin --


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Granted.
> 
> But here's how far down the rabbit hole you are. I don't even remember which post you are talking about nor do I really care (the system doesn't allow you to upvote parts and downvote others of a post).  But you are monitoring who is giving thumbs up to who.  Here's another little tid bit to blow your mind: who are your most vehement supporters?  How do you feel about the company you keep?


@Grace T. and you think the company you keep is an intellectual powerhouse?  Give me a break.  You're siding with the Alex Jones fanboys.  

I can't stop laughing.....


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> @Grace T. and you think the company you keep is an intellectual powerhouse?  Give me a break.  You're siding with the Alex Jones fanboys.
> 
> I can't stop laughing.....


Yup


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430184119749681153


----------



## Bruddah IZ

As Delta Variant Surges, College Tightens Covid Rules in Spite of Student Protests 

Amid concerns surrounding the Delta variant of Covid-19, the college announced on Tuesday that it has tightened its public health rules for the first two and a half weeks of the fall semester. The announcement has generated backlash among students who say the new rules are too restrictive.

As the Delta variant continues to plague the nation, the college announced on Tuesday that it has tightened its public health precautions for the first two and a half weeks of the Fall 2021 semester (from move-in to Sept. 13). *The restrictions include: indoor double-mask mandates, two Covid tests upon arrival, a bi-weekly testing requirement, limits on indoor gathering sizes, off-campus travel restrictions and an elimination of in-person dining services.

These restrictions were put into place on Aug. 24, and represented an increase from the rules outlined in a previous announcement made eight days prior. The new protocols caused significant student backlash, including an open letter signed by over 250 students asking the administration to reconsider the changes.

Last spring, the college announced that all students, faculty and staff must be fully vaccinated to return to campus, with exceptions granted only on medical or religious grounds. Students must verify their vaccination status on the student health portal prior to arriving.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Duke sets new campus restrictions after rise in COVID cases among vaccinated students 
BY KATE MURPHY UPDATED AUGUST 31, 2021 02:35 PM

Duke University has set new restrictions to mitigate the spread of COVID-19 as cases are rising on the Durham campus despite its vaccine mandate.

In the first week of classes, 304 undergraduates, 45 graduate students and 15 employees tested positive for COVID-19. All but eight of these individuals were vaccinated, and the vast majority of them are asymptomatic. A small number have minor, cold- and flu-like symptoms, and none have been hospitalized, according to the university.

The tyranny of tiny risk


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Calling Dr Darwin --
> 
> View attachment 11561


Zero-Covid is wishful thinking if Australia wants to rejoin the world 
                          30 August 2021, 5:47am

Some of Sydney and all of Melbourne are under night-time curfew – something that has never occurred in Australia before, even under threat of Japanese invasion in 1942.

On Wednesday last week, Australian daily positives topped 1,000 for the first time – 1/36 of the British tally for the same day with a population two-fifths of Britain’s – for the first time in the eighteen months of this pandemic. Yet these small numbers are a major health crisis in Australia, showing how over-reactive, defensive, and frightened most Australians are when it comes to this virus.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

No Liberty? No Problem 

Australians shrug at their government’s draconian pandemic response. 

Arthur Chrenkoff August 30, 2021


The success in suppressing Covid comes with other price tags. The single-minded obsession that no one get sick and die from Covid is being paid for by a slowly unfolding mental-health crisis. Social isolation and dislocation are taking their toll in terms of rising suicide, depression, substance abuse, and domestic violence. Physical health suffers, too, as treatable conditions don’t get treated in the health system that now seems to have only one goal.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

@Grace T. and you think the company you keep is an intellectual powerhouse?  Give me a break.  You're siding with the Alex Jones fanboys. 

I can't stop laughing.....
[/QUOTE]
Your elitist disdain is showing. Still assuming arguendo it’s even true, I’d take gentlemen like bruddah and crush any day of the week over busker and espola

Most of us have doppelgängers here in the off topic thread.  Even I had one for a little bit which sadly seems to have gone away. I still miss the hatter too. Your last sentence gives me an idea of yours. Are you a fan of any obscure bands?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your elitist disdain is showing. Still assuming arguendo it’s even true, I’d take gentlemen like bruddah and crush any day of the week over busker and espola
> 
> Most of us have doppelgängers here in the off topic thread.  Even I had one for a little bit which sadly seems to have gone away. I still miss the hatter too. Your last sentence gives me an idea of yours. Are you a fan of any obscure bands?


Speaking of doppelgangers, how do you reconcile the "truth" you referred to when you bragged about breaking missionaries with a religion based on multiple universes?

You can believe anything you want as a basis for your religion, and that's what is called "faith'.  Just don't call it truth.


----------



## Desert Hound

As reality starts to dawn on some parts of the world.


isn’t the only one ditching “Covid Zero” as a goal: So is Singapore.



> Singapore has decided to give up on the dream of covid-zero and will instead learn to “live with the virus,” according to the country’s Prime Minister, Lee Hsien Loong on Sunday. The decision comes despite the fact that Singapore has one of the highest covid-19 vaccination rates in the world, with 80% of the adult population fully vaccinated—second only to the country of Malta’s 82%.
> Singapore, a country of roughly 5.7 million people, has been among a handful of countries that have pursued a strategy of completely eliminating covid-19, rather than just suppressing the virus. Other covid-zero countries over the past year have included New Zealand, Taiwan, China, Vietnam, and Australia.
> *“It is no longer possible to bring covid-19 cases down to zero, even if we lock down for a long time. Therefore, we must prepare for covid-19 to become endemic, like the flu or chicken pox,”* Lee said on Sunday during a speech to commemorate the country’s National Day, according to a transcript from the Strait Times.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Speaking of doppelgangers, how do you reconcile the "truth" you referred to when you bragged about breaking missionaries with a religion based on multiple universes?
> 
> You can believe anything you want as a basis for your religion, and that's what is called "faith'.  Just don't call it truth.


You're babbling.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your elitist disdain is showing. Still assuming arguendo it’s even true, I’d take gentlemen like bruddah and crush any day of the week over busker and espola
> 
> Most of us have doppelgängers here in the off topic thread.  Even I had one for a little bit which sadly seems to have gone away. I still miss the hatter too. Your last sentence gives me an idea of yours. Are you a fan of any obscure bands?


You are seriously allying yourself with the two biggest netloons on this forum?  I mean, there are posters here that have oddball political positions, but those two guys have convinced me that they are both just sockpuppets created by an otherwise intelligent poster -- or "doppelganger", if you prefer. 

I usually don't read anything either of those two persons post, unless someone responds to one of them in a way that makes me curious.  Am I missing something?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> As reality starts to dawn on some parts of the world.
> 
> 
> isn’t the only one ditching “Covid Zero” as a goal: So is Singapore.


Something has to give in Australia too.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You are seriously allying yourself with the two biggest netloons on this forum?  I mean, there are posters here that have oddball political positions, but those two guys have convinced me that they are both just sockpuppets created by an otherwise intelligent poster -- or "doppelganger", if you prefer.
> 
> I usually don't read anything either of those two persons post, unless someone responds to one of them in a way that makes me curious.  Am I missing something?


Reading


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Speaking of doppelgangers, how do you reconcile the "truth" you referred to when you bragged about breaking missionaries with a religion based on multiple universes?
> 
> You can believe anything you want as a basis for your religion, and that's what is called "faith'.  Just don't call it truth.


Exactly.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You are seriously allying yourself with the two biggest netloons on this forum?  I mean, there are posters here that have oddball political positions, but those two guys have convinced me that they are both just sockpuppets created by an otherwise intelligent poster -- or "doppelganger", if you prefer.
> 
> I usually don't read anything either of those two persons post, unless someone responds to one of them in a way that makes me curious.  Am I missing something?


My argument back to dad was that he had aligned himself with the trolls. The argument that got thrown back at me was : “yeah but your allies are stupid”.   Assuming that’s even true, I would associate with decent people any day of the week long before you, and if I ever found myself on the same side as an argument as you, I’d probably check myself.

plus I found the argument coming from norcaldad incredibly elitist which is the charge that has been leveled at the current supporters of restrictions, which I find really funny


----------



## crush

espola said:


> You are seriously allying yourself with the two biggest netloons on this forum?  I mean, there are posters here that have oddball political positions, but those two guys have convinced me that they are both just sockpuppets created by an otherwise intelligent poster -- or "doppelganger", if you prefer.
> 
> *I usually don't read anything either of those two persons post*, unless someone responds to one of them in a way that makes me curious.  Am I missing something?


I got you now old man.  Come back to me and let's have true debate on here to fix OUR country.  My math say's this:  Liberal 22.2%, Conservative 25.8%, Socialist 20%, Independent ((Crush)) 20%, Communist & Marxist & Elitist 11% ((growing way too fast for my liking and not allowed in our country, sorry)) and THE REST 1%.  The Rest is the scary bunch and they align with the Commies and Soros and the 13 Cabul families playing on ALL of OUR backs.  I think our country will have about 5 groups representing itself in the future and WE will figure it out.  No one group can get everything they want unless they cheat, steal, lie and kill for it.  We the people want honesty, fairness and a merit based society.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Exactly.


You're evading the question.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> My argument back to dad was that he had aligned himself with the trolls. The argument that got thrown back at me was : “yeah but your allies are stupid”.   Assuming that’s even true, I would associate with decent people any day of the week long before you, and if I ever found myself on the same side as an argument as you, I’d probably check myself.
> 
> plus I found the argument coming from norcaldad incredibly elitist which is the charge that has been leveled at the current supporters of restrictions, which I find really funny


Which "dad" are you referring to there?


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> Something has to give in Australia too.


Yes it does. 

What we see there highlights what happens when people cede too much power to the government. I know they have a policy dad likes, but for most of us, it is way to strict/authoritarian in nature. At some point they will have enough of it and demand a return to normalcy.


----------



## watfly

What strikes me about all these conservations about Covid policy, is that there are some posters, along with some politicians, that want to treat adults as children, and children as adults.  I know we live in a society today where many things are backwards (like criminals being the victims), but I find this mentality particularly odd.  How have we gotten so sideways?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> @Grace T. and you think the company you keep is an intellectual powerhouse?  Give me a break.  You're siding with the Alex Jones fanboys.
> 
> I can't stop laughing.....


Your elitist disdain is showing. Still assuming arguendo it’s even true, I’d take gentlemen like bruddah and crush any day of the week over busker and espola

Most of us have doppelgängers here in the off topic thread.  Even I had one for a little bit which sadly seems to have gone away. I still miss the hatter too. Your last sentence gives me an idea of yours. Are you a fan of any obscure bands?
[/QUOTE]
The self anointed crack me up.  Eloquent fools.  They would have served Hitler well.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Which "dad" are you referring to there?


I should have chosen a better screen name.

Maybe I‘ll pick something soccer related, like “inflated bladder” or “net warrior”.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> What strikes me about all these conservations about Covid policy, is that there are some posters, along with some politicians, that want to treat adults as children, and children as adults.  I know we live in a society today where many things are backwards (like criminals being the victims), but I find this mentality particularly odd. * How have we gotten so sideways?*


You will soon find out bro.  Get the popcorn out.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I should have chosen a better screen name.
> 
> Maybe I‘ll pick something soccer related, like “inflated bladder” or “net warrior”.


 "Morbi Mathematica"
"The Pitch is a Plane"
"Linear Balling"
"Finding the Angle"
"Calculating the Goal"
"Soccer is Trig"
"Not in the Calculator"


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I should have chosen a better screen name.
> 
> Maybe I‘ll pick something soccer related, like “inflated bladder” or “net warrior”.


I liked Espola when I first joined.  He actually took the time out of his busy schedule to help me through my pain that youth soccer caused me and my little one.  He was a shoulder to lean on, since I had no real biological dad.  Then I met you dad, and you seemed to care so much for all the kids and their poor injuries they got from soccer.  Today, Espola is 100% on the side of lying and you want kids in mask all day long.  Both of you have lost all the respect I once had.  Respect is earned.  I have to leave for a while.  I'm actually looking where to move because I'm not able to make a buck in California unless I get jabbed.  I'm selling everything.  I bought a trailer and I'm living off the grid.  My wife and I are looking at doing a live Podcast called, "Into the wild with no Jab."  I'm serious.  I never in my wildest dreams thought *some* my fellow Californians would be so cold hearted.  However, everyone I know got the jab and *some* are starting to act weird and give that look like, "just get the jab and get it over with."  My wife and I and our two dogs Iccy Bear and Oreo will wait this one out.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "Morbi Mathematica"
> "The Pitch is a Plane"
> "Linear Balling"
> "Finding the Angle"
> "Calculating the Goal"
> "Soccer is Trig"
> "Not in the Calculator"


None of those is any good.  Soccer site, not math site.

”negative cross” might work, but I’m not feeling that grumpy yet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I should have chosen a better screen name.
> 
> Maybe I‘ll pick something soccer related, like “inflated bladder” or “net warrior”.


Hooligan4?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> None of those is any good.  Soccer site, not math site.
> 
> ”negative cross” might work, but I’m not feeling that grumpy yet.


No sense of humor whatsoever....

"Adding the score"
"Multiple goals"
"Real Number"
"A Fraction Ahead"
"11 is Prime"
"The Cutback Calculator"
"Calculating and Screaming"
"Evil Daddy"


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> No sense of humor whatsoever....
> "Evil Daddy"


Derivative.  "Newton's Header" or, if kid's a midfielder "The Masked Mid"


----------



## Grace T.

Long Covid in children 'nowhere near scale feared'
					

Public should be reassured over rates of persistent symptoms, leading child health experts say.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Grace T.

Biden's top-down booster plan sparks anger at FDA
					

Acting FDA Commissioner Janet Woodcock sent a memo Tuesday evening to vaccine regulators, reiterating her support as frustration over the process spreads within their ranks.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> No sense of humor whatsoever....
> 
> "Adding the score"
> "Multiple goals"
> "Real Number"
> "A Fraction Ahead"
> "11 is Prime"
> "The Cutback Calculator"
> "Calculating and Screaming"
> "Evil Daddy"


The Covid Kid


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Biden's top-down booster plan sparks anger at FDA
> 
> 
> Acting FDA Commissioner Janet Woodcock sent a memo Tuesday evening to vaccine regulators, reiterating her support as frustration over the process spreads within their ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com


As an editorial...bad day for the Israeli side of the English v. Israeli plan.  I'm tilting heavier now towards England.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> As an editorial...bad day for the Israeli side of the English v. Israeli plan.  I'm tilting heavier now towards England.


Now I'm back to neutral, but the key factor is whether vaccine immunity really is declining (in which case the boosters are a hopeless whack a mole).  Where this might end is boosters maybe for at risk people.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I should have chosen a better screen name.
> 
> Maybe I‘ll pick something soccer related, like “inflated bladder” or “net warrior”.


When I first started posting to GOTSoccer many years ago, I signed myself in as soccerdad.  GOTSoccer had no control of what names people chose, so I soon got a bunch of replies about my stealing their name.  Thus I became espola, which is not a real word but is the name of a street.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> When I first started posting to GOTSoccer many years ago, I signed myself in as soccerdad.  GOTSoccer had no control of what names people chose, so I soon got a bunch of replies about my stealing their name.  Thus I became espola, which is not a real word but is the name of a street.


Thanks for sharing your history with us.  I mean that.  Espola Neighborhood is where you are now or where you grew up?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Now I'm back to neutral, but the key factor is whether vaccine immunity really is declining (in which case the boosters are a hopeless whack a mole).  Where this might end is boosters maybe for at risk people.


I don't see why declining immunity would necessarily imply booster whack a mole.

Kids have lots of booster shots.  Presumably, the initial shot exhibits some amount of declining immunity.  But, despite that declining immunity, most diseases do not even have adult booster shots.  It might take 2 or 3 rounds, but eventually, the series is sufficient.

Seems quite reasonable that the covid shot could fall into the same pattern as the other vaccinations most people get.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I don't see why declining immunity would necessarily imply booster whack a mole.
> 
> Kids have lots of booster shots.  Presumably, the initial shot exhibits some amount of declining immunity.  But, despite that declining immunity, most diseases do not even have adult booster shots.  It might take 2 or 3 rounds, but eventually, the series is sufficient.
> 
> Seems quite reasonable that the covid shot could fall into the same pattern as the other vaccinations most people get.



Because you are having a problem getting to 90% even without boosters.  If you are doing boosters upon boosters you aren't going to get to the 90% because you loose a portion of that percentage every month....that leaves you by default with the England approach (maybe offering voluntary boosters for those that want them and have underlying conditions).


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I don't see why declining immunity would necessarily imply booster whack a mole.
> 
> Kids have lots of booster shots.  Presumably, the initial shot exhibits some amount of declining immunity.  But, despite that declining immunity, most diseases do not even have adult booster shots.  It might take 2 or 3 rounds, but eventually, the series is sufficient.
> 
> Seems quite reasonable that the covid shot could fall into the same pattern as the other vaccinations most people get.


I get a flu shot every year.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Because you are having a problem getting to 90% even without boosters.  If you are doing boosters upon boosters you aren't going to get to the 90% because you loose a portion of that percentage every month....that leaves you by default with the England approach (maybe offering voluntary boosters for those that want them and have underlying conditions).


I love it when Grace starts a post with "Because..."


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I love it when Grace starts a post with "Because..."


I love it when Grace calls you a liar!!!


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Derivative.  "Newton's Header" or, if kid's a midfielder "The Masked Mid"


Or "Billie the Mid."


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I get a flu shot every year.


a. you aren't mandated to get the flu shot every year
b. people aren't masked up, social distancing isn't imposed, and business aren't restricted during the flu season.
c. about only 45% of the population gets their annual flu shot.
d. people still get (and die) from the flu.

The Israeli/Gottlieb approach is based on continuing protections (though lower grade than lockdowns) until enough of the population receives the booster so some semblance of herd immunity is reached.  The English version just acknowledges, as Campbell said, "everyone is going to get it" so lift the restrictions now and natural immunity will serve as a booster (now maybe modified with, boosters for the vulnerable, if they want it).   If you go with the Israeli/Gottlieb, things like masks and other restrictions make sense because you are trying to minimize disease in the present).  If you go with the UK, you open it up all now (and/or you force people to get their first shot and then open it up).


----------



## Grace T.

The worm is turning again.  Hospitalization rates are falling in Florida.  They are rising in over 40 others including the District of Columbia.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. you aren't mandated to get the flu shot every year
> b. people aren't masked up, social distancing isn't imposed, and business aren't restricted during the flu season.
> c. about only 45% of the population gets their annual flu shot.
> d. people still get (and die) from the flu.
> 
> The Israeli/Gottlieb approach is based on continuing protections (though lower grade than lockdowns) until enough of the population receives the booster so some semblance of herd immunity is reached.  The English version just acknowledges, as Campbell said, "everyone is going to get it" so lift the restrictions now and natural immunity will serve as a booster (now maybe modified with, boosters for the vulnerable, if they want it).   If you go with the Israeli/Gottlieb, things like masks and other restrictions make sense because you are trying to minimize disease in the present).  If you go with the UK, you open it up all now (and/or you force people to get their first shot and then open it up).


"Everyone is going to be exposed to it."

Other than that, you are playing in a trio with your anti-vax loon friends.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Everyone is going to be exposed to it."
> 
> Other than that, you are playing in a trio with your anti-vax loon friends.


The English approach is premised on everyone who wants one having at least the first round of vaccination.  It's not an approach which would work, say, in Haiti or even Australia with low vaccination rate.  It's not anti-vaxx....it assumes hospitalizations/long COVID/death are substantially reduced by the first round of vaxx (proof of this would be my caveat for going all in on the English approach...we know about death but hospitalizaiton/long COVID stats are lacking though the new UK study indicates long COVID is likely not a substantial issue with vaccinated or unvaccinated children).  It does also assume that natural immunity after a vax (or having survived COVID) is very robust, which recent info indicates may be correct as well.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Because you are having a problem getting to 90% even without boosters.  If you are doing boosters upon boosters you aren't going to get to the 90% because you loose a portion of that percentage every month....that leaves you by default with the England approach (maybe offering voluntary boosters for those that want them and have underlying conditions).


You are assuming that any vaccine which ever shows declining potency must automatically need "boosters upon boosters."

That is not even remotely true.  We have several diseases which need childhood booster shots, but do not need "boosters upon boosters", as you say.  Some of them, like pertussis, also have an incredibly high R and need well above 90% immunity.

Despite all that, whopping cough is rare.  The vaccination campaign is successful, and we don't require annual adult pertussis boosters.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> "Everyone is going to be exposed to it."
> 
> Other than that, *you are playing in a trio with your anti-vax loon friends.*


Great things come in three Espola.  1.  God the Father/Mother.  2.  Christ Jesus.  3.  The Holy Spirit.  Also, the Atom has three very important parts, see below bro


Some are a trio of social media pals who have never met before.  Bruddah on one side and Crush on the other side holding Grace in Love.  Whatever your corrupt and twisted mind thinks beyond that is on you.  Love you Grace and Bruddah   Where is Busker Du?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are assuming that any vaccine which ever shows declining potency must automatically need "boosters upon boosters."
> 
> That is not even remotely true.  We have several diseases which need childhood booster shots, but do not need "boosters upon boosters", as you say.  Some of them, like pertussis, also have an incredibly high R and need well above 90% immunity.
> 
> Despite all that, whopping cough is rare.  The vaccination campaign is successful, and we don't require annual adult pertussis boosters.



Errr...your last sentence is incorrect.  It's recommended that caregivers of young infants too young to receive the shot to receive a pertussis booster (at least it was several years ago when I had kids....I had a bad reaction to mine despite having had several other boosters as an adult including the MMR one when I got potentially exposed at that Disneyland incident).  

We've also had periodic outbreaks of whooping cough.  Day care centers were closed for 2 weeks in Los Angeles when my son was 2....his playmate and a coworker of mine had their kid hospitalized because of it.  If your standard is periodic regional epidemics are cool and we can drop masks/restrictions at that point, o.k.  Otherwise, I don't think the pertussis vax does what you think it does.

But I do agree there are two possible permutations of the Israeli/Gottleib approach.  Gottlieb himself has said maybe the 3rd booster is enough to really boost immunity for a long time (like varicella).  The Israelis are under the impression COVID is more like the flu and will keep mutating so constant boosters are required.  I'll give you that much.


----------



## crush

Down Under is Gnarly Brahs!  Remix and for entertainment only.  Do your own research please and have a some fun 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433019248733921286


----------



## Roadrunner

Grace T. said:


> Errr...your last sentence is incorrect.  It's recommended that caregivers of young infants too young to receive the shot to receive a pertussis booster (at least it was several years ago when I had kids....I had a bad reaction to mine despite having had several other boosters as an adult including the MMR one when I got potentially exposed at that Disneyland incident).
> 
> We've also had periodic outbreaks of whooping cough.  Day care centers were closed for 2 weeks in Los Angeles when my son was 2....his playmate and a coworker of mine had their kid hospitalized because of it.  If your standard is periodic regional epidemics are cool and we can drop masks/restrictions at that point, o.k.  Otherwise, I don't think the pertussis vax does what you think it does.
> 
> But I do agree there are two possible permutations of the Israeli/Gottleib approach.  Gottlieb himself has said maybe the 3rd booster is enough to really boost immunity for a long time (like varicella).  The Israelis are under the impression COVID is more like the flu and will keep mutating so constant boosters are required.  I'll give you that much.


We have outbreaks of measles or whooping cough when there are enough people with low immunity in a geographical area. That then allows the virus to spread among the susceptible population.  With worldwide travel, people do a good job spreading viruses around.  Antivaxxers definitely contribute to the likelihood of outbreaks.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> We have outbreaks of measles or whooping cough when there are enough people with low immunity in a geographical area. That then allows the virus to spread among the susceptible population.  With worldwide travel, people do a good job spreading viruses around.  Antivaxxers definitely contribute to the likelihood of outbreaks.


Yup, but some vaccines have a more robust life time immunological response (varicella) than others (pertusis/whooping cough).  Or in really simplified terms, some vaccines work much better than others









						Why Is Whooping Cough on the Rise?
					

Cases of whooping cough (pertussis) in the U.S. are rising, despite record vaccinations. The reason: the current vaccine doesn't work as well as the original.




					www.bu.edu


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The worm is turning again.  Hospitalization rates are falling in Florida.  They are rising in over 40 others including the District of Columbia.


The 7-day case averages in FL, AL, MS are all dropping. The "mid" south looks at or near a peak with the middle of the country rising.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The 7-day case averages in FL, AL, MS are all dropping. The "mid" south looks at or near a peak with the middle of the country rising.


They don't chart it so I don't have easy access to it, but isn't Los Angeles/SoCal also past peak?  Same pattern as last year.  If the pattern holds it moves all the way north, then heads right back down to us before spring (and I'm sure will get blamed on Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas).  You think Fauci/the blue staters will say no Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas.  That will be pretty sad as many socaler kids (because of the fires 3 years back) will have gone without Halloween...you only get a handful of them between the kid being old enough and the kid being too old to want to do anything....imagine missing Halloween for 3 years running.  Mine little guy sadly missed his last because of the fires/power outage, but at least got to experience the rest


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> The 7-day case averages in FL, AL, MS are all dropping. The "mid" south looks at or near a peak with the middle of the country rising.


As is fatality rate, since 4th of July.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Errr...your last sentence is incorrect.  It's recommended that caregivers of young infants too young to receive the shot to receive a pertussis booster (at least it was several years ago when I had kids....I had a bad reaction to mine despite having had several other boosters as an adult including the MMR one when I got potentially exposed at that Disneyland incident).
> 
> We've also had periodic outbreaks of whooping cough.  Day care centers were closed for 2 weeks in Los Angeles when my son was 2....his playmate and a coworker of mine had their kid hospitalized because of it.  If your standard is periodic regional epidemics are cool and we can drop masks/restrictions at that point, o.k.  Otherwise, I don't think the pertussis vax does what you think it does.
> 
> But I do agree there are two possible permutations of the Israeli/Gottleib approach.  Gottlieb himself has said maybe the 3rd booster is enough to really boost immunity for a long time (like varicella).  The Israelis are under the impression COVID is more like the flu and will keep mutating so constant boosters are required.  I'll give you that much.


The controversy with the FDA resignations, BTW, seems to center that the Biden admin is pursuing a boosters approach without knowing what this effect is.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> They don't chart it so I don't have easy access to it, but isn't Los Angeles/SoCal also past peak?  Same pattern as last year.  If the pattern holds it moves all the way north, then heads right back down to us before spring (and I'm sure will get blamed on Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas).  You think Fauci/the blue staters will say no Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas.  That will be pretty sad as many socaler kids (because of the fires 3 years back) will have gone without Halloween...you only get a handful of them between the kid being old enough and the kid being too old to want to do anything....imagine missing Halloween for 3 years running.  Mine little guy sadly missed his last because of the fires/power outage, but at least got to experience the rest


Yes, it looks like we get to watch another October-January surge.  

Are you really sure that the loss of free candy is the most important aspect of this event?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, it looks like we get to watch another October-January surge.
> 
> Are you really sure that the loss of free candy is the most important aspect of this event?


For the kids it's the ritual (getting a costume, going out trick or treating, the candy).  There something magical about it.  Some SoCal kids will have barely experienced it if it gets cancelled again.

For the teens, I grant you that.  But then it's theirs (and also far less magical).


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> The 7-day case averages in FL, AL, MS are all dropping. The "mid" south looks at or near a peak with the middle of the country rising.


Sweet Home Alabama here I come?  South East is looking like it's calling my name bro.  Socal is telling me to take one for the team to just be safe and that WILL NEVER HAPPEN.  I'm driving to North Carolina to pick up my new home trailer. Trailer park life baby 






My wife and I will stay away.  Love you all and will miss you.  Sorry I couldnt stay but the energy level is so low I need to go


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Sweet Home Alabama here I come?  South East is looking like it's calling my name bro.  Socal is telling me to take one for the team to just be safe and that WILL NEVER HAPPEN.  I'm driving to North Carolina to pick up my new home trailer. Trailer park life baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I will stay away.  Love you all and will miss you.  Sorry I couldnt stay but the energy level is so low I need to go
> 
> View attachment 11566


Looks like a nice trailer and a great spot but that's NOT Alabama.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Looks like a nice trailer and a great spot but that's NOT Alabama.


Shhhhh, I told my wife what life will be like with our new home bro.  Come on man, a little lie here and little trick there is all good   This is more like it.  I only have one dog left too because someone stole Oreo.


----------



## Mosafie

kickingandscreaming said:


> The 7-day case averages in FL, AL, MS are all dropping. The "mid" south looks at or near a peak with the middle of the country rising.


Not really. Some states such as Florida just stopped reporting deaths on same day. Now they just wait and add it back in later. So what that does is increase past deaths and reduce daily reported deaths making it look like a decline.









						Florida's New COVID Reporting Method Show 'Artificial Decline' in Deaths
					

The new reporting method on the state's COVID deaths has effectively created a spike where a downslope was previously recorded while also moving the downward trend forward in time.




					www.google.com


----------



## Grace T.

Mosafie said:


> Not really. Some states such as Florida just stopped reporting deaths on same day. Now they just wait and add it back in later. So what that does is increase past deaths and reduce daily reported deaths making it look like a decline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida's New COVID Reporting Method Show 'Artificial Decline' in Deaths
> 
> 
> The new reporting method on the state's COVID deaths has effectively created a spike where a downslope was previously recorded while also moving the downward trend forward in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


I was referring to hospitalizations not deaths.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Now I'm back to neutral, but the key factor is whether vaccine immunity really is declining (in which case the boosters are a hopeless whack a mole).  Where this might end is boosters maybe for at risk people.


The tyranny of tiny risk.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> "Everyone is going to be exposed to it."
> 
> Other than that, you are playing in a trio with your anti-vax loon friends.


Pro-immune system friends.  The one you die without.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Great things come in three Espola.  1.  God the Father/Mother.  2.  Christ Jesus.  3.  The Holy Spirit.  Also, the Atom has three very important parts, see below bro
> View attachment 11565
> 
> Some are a trio of social media pals who have never met before.  Bruddah on one side and Crush on the other side holding Grace in Love.  Whatever your corrupt and twisted mind thinks beyond that is on you.  Love you Grace and Bruddah   Where is Busker Du?


Union retreat


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> The tyranny of tiny risk.


That's why i think we'll wind up with some form of boosters for the over 50-60 crowd, if things end up rationally.  For an 18 year the drop from small to miniscule to teeny tiny is irrelevant.  For a 60-70 year old it might actually make a statistical difference.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Mosafie said:


> Not really. Some states such as Florida just stopped reporting deaths on same day. Now they just wait and add it back in later. So what that does is increase past deaths and reduce daily reported deaths making it look like a decline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida's New COVID Reporting Method Show 'Artificial Decline' in Deaths
> 
> 
> The new reporting method on the state's COVID deaths has effectively created a spike where a downslope was previously recorded while also moving the downward trend forward in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


So how many daily deaths should they have?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> That's why i think we'll wind up with some form of boosters for the over 50-60 crowd, if things end up rationally.  For an 18 year the drop from small to miniscule to teeny tiny is irrelevant.  For a 60-70 year old it might actually make a statistical difference.


Sure.  But the insurance actuaries already told us that long ago.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> We have outbreaks of measles or whooping cough when there are enough people with low immunity in a geographical area. That then allows the virus to spread among the susceptible population.  With worldwide travel, people do a good job spreading viruses around.  Antivaxxers definitely contribute to the likelihood of outbreaks.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430184119749681153


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430184119749681153


Have you heard of disease reservoirs?  This tweet makes no sense.


----------



## NOVA.Dad




----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430184119749681153


Hansen’s Disease comes to mind.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19
					

Scientists conducted a randomized trial across 600 villages and more than 340,000 people in Bangladesh and found that even some adoption of surgical masks made a difference.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## NOVA.Dad

Apologies for posting more facts.


----------



## dad4

Roadrunner said:


> Have you heard of disease reservoirs?  This tweet makes no sense.


It's worse than that.  The troll honestly can't think of any time in all of history when one human got mad at another for spreading disease.


----------



## NOVA.Dad

dad4 said:


> It's worse than that.  The troll honestly can't think of any time in all of history when one human got mad at another for spreading disease.


...just a selfish prick.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Mosafie said:


> Not really. Some states such as Florida just stopped reporting deaths on same day. Now they just wait and add it back in later. So what that does is increase past deaths and reduce daily reported deaths making it look like a decline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida's New COVID Reporting Method Show 'Artificial Decline' in Deaths
> 
> 
> The new reporting method on the state's COVID deaths has effectively created a spike where a downslope was previously recorded while also moving the downward trend forward in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Interesting - thanks for posting. However, I was referring to cases, not deaths.


----------



## Grace T.

NOVA.Dad said:


> Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19
> 
> 
> Scientists conducted a randomized trial across 600 villages and more than 340,000 people in Bangladesh and found that even some adoption of surgical masks made a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Err...as I cited elsewhere there's quite a bit for pro maskers and antimasker to hate about this.  On the antimasker side, surgical masks (when coupled with distancing) reduced transmission predelta only about 10% and cloth masks were found to be pretty much useless.  On the promasker side, it was shown to help about 10% with a possible upside with more robust and better masking.  Lots of limitations in the study but basically confirms what we know....masking (particularly better masking and particularly when coupled with social distancing) helps a little (at least pre-Delta).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It's worse than that.  The troll honestly can't think of any time in all of history when one human got mad at another for spreading disease.


Nice.  Having been accused yourself of hanging out with trolls, you try to justify it by trying to paint him as a troll.  Bruddah's been a good guy on these forums, basically only responding with vitriol only with those who have justifiable earned it with a long history of random insults against people out of the blue.

If he's a troll, then (i think it was NB or maybe watfly) is right....you're a troll, I'm a troll, nova's a troll, roadrunner is a troll, basically anyone hanging out in this subforum is a troll.

p.s. exhibit "a": "selfish prick"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nice.  Having been accused yourself of hanging out with trolls, you try to justify it by trying to paint him as a troll.  Bruddah's been a good guy on these forums, basically only responding with vitriol only with those who have justifiable earned it with a long history of random insults against people out of the blue.
> 
> If he's a troll, then (i think it was NB or maybe watfly) is right....you're a troll, I'm a troll, nova's a troll, roadrunner is a troll, basically anyone hanging out in this subforum is a troll.
> 
> p.s. exhibit "a": "selfish prick"


You have really poor judgment in selecting allies.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err...as I cited elsewhere there's quite a bit for pro maskers and antimasker to hate about this.  On the antimasker side, surgical masks (when coupled with distancing) reduced transmission predelta only about 10% and cloth masks were found to be pretty much useless.  On the promasker side, it was shown to help about 10% with a possible upside with more robust and better masking.  Lots of limitations in the study but basically confirms what we know....masking (particularly better masking and particularly when coupled with social distancing) helps a little (at least pre-Delta).


That is a significant misrepresentation, Grace.

The study did not find that surgical masks are associated with a 10% decline in cases.  The study found that _*partial*_ adoption of surgical masks was associated with an 11.2% decline in cases.   The actual change to mask wearing was only 28 percentage points.   Complete adoption of surgical masks would be expected to cause a larger change than partial adoption.   If it is linear, a 40% decline.

Slightly more, since the surgical masks they used were washable and had a lower filtration efficiency than the disposable ones.

Cloth masks were not found to be useless.  The study was underpowered to answer that question.  The median estimate for cloth masks was that they were about 1/2 as effective as reusable surgical masks.

In all, the study was strong evidence that masks work, and that you should upgrade from cloth to surgical.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Nice.  Having been accused yourself of hanging out with trolls, you try to justify it by trying to paint him as a troll.  Bruddah's been a good guy on these forums, basically only responding with vitriol only with those who have justifiable earned it with a long history of random insults against people out of the blue.
> 
> If he's a troll, then (i think it was NB or maybe watfly) is right....you're a troll, I'm a troll, nova's a troll, roadrunner is a troll, basically anyone hanging out in this subforum is a troll.
> 
> p.s. exhibit "a": "selfish prick"


Dizzy may agree with you when you want to minimize covid, but he spams the board with copies of charts he doesn’t even understand.   It adds very little to the conversation.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> You have really poor judgment in selecting allies.


Remind me again why people are ‘taking sides’?

I like the discussion, the difference of opinion, the challenging of views… similar to salons during the enlightenment.

Does anyone actually ‘win’ an argument, anonymously, online?

-N00B
& interwebs wants to know.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Remind me again why people are ‘taking sides’?
> 
> I like the discussion, the difference of opinion, the challenging of views… similar to salons during the enlightenment.
> 
> Does anyone actually ‘win’ an argument, anonymously, online?
> 
> -N00B
> & interwebs wants to know.


I don't see myself as taking a side, unless it is the side of truth and common sense.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That is a significant misrepresentation, Grace.
> 
> The study did not find that surgical masks are associated with a 10% decline in cases.  The study found that _*partial*_ adoption of surgical masks was associated with an 11.2% decline in cases.   The actual change to mask wearing was only 28 percentage points.   Complete adoption of surgical masks would be expected to cause a larger change than partial adoption.   If it is linear, a 40% decline.
> 
> Slightly more, since the surgical masks they used were washable and had a lower filtration efficiency than the disposable ones.
> 
> Cloth masks were not found to be useless.  The study was underpowered to answer that question.  The median estimate for cloth masks was that they were about 1/2 as effective as reusable surgical masks.
> 
> In all, the study was strong evidence that masks work, and that you should upgrade from cloth to surgical.


Errr….as I said there’s a lot for both sides to criticize on this study. On the anti mask side it’s that it tracked symptoms since blood samples were hard to collect and that it was coupled with distance (you saw a greater effect in the elderly because the elderly were more sheltered).  But I’d be happy if you just finally acknowledge cloth masks are not all they are cracked up to be.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Dizzy may agree with you when you want to minimize covid, but he spams the board with copies of charts he doesn’t even understand.   It adds very little to the conversation.


Assuming arguendo that’s even true, that’s very different than what your friends do.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I don't see myself as taking a side, unless it is the side of truth and common sense.


Thank you for this….I laughed so hard I almost spit out my coffee.


----------



## crush

NOVA.Dad said:


> View attachment 11570


Yesterday I read about a person who was against the jab that had died of a really bad cold that turned into pneumonia.  Both lungs filled and he died.  Another person just died after being jabbed twice of the same type of cold.  Then, I just saw a person from the UK whose dd just died after her second jab.  The fact is, everyone is going to die sooner rather than later.  Fear of death is real.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr….as I said there’s a lot for both sides to criticize on this study. On the anti mask side it’s that it tracked symptoms since blood samples were hard to collect and that it was coupled with distance (you saw a greater effect in the elderly because the elderly were more sheltered).  But I’d be happy if you just finally acknowledge cloth masks are not all they are cracked up to be.


I am not criticizing the study.  I am criticizing you for misrepresenting the study.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am not criticizing the study.  I am criticizing you for misrepresenting the study.


Yeah yeah yeah we know the drill. My representation of the study is that there’s quite a lot in there for both sides to hate and there’s quite a lot for both to criticize by way of methodology.  I think we just both proved that.  But between you and me, its only the true believer that tried to argue this study is great for masking.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr….as I said there’s a lot for both sides to criticize on this study. On the anti mask side it’s that it tracked symptoms since blood samples were hard to collect and that it was coupled with distance (you saw a greater effect in the elderly because the elderly were more sheltered).  But I’d be happy if you just finally acknowledge cloth masks are not all they are cracked up to be.


Strawman


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Thank you for this….I laughed so hard I almost spit out my coffee.


Do you have some examples where this is not true?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah yeah yeah we know the drill. My representation of the study is that there’s quite a lot in there for both sides to hate and there’s quite a lot for both to criticize by way of methodology.  I think we just both proved that.  But between you and me, its only the true believer that tried to argue this study is great for masking.


Every masked group fared better than every unmasked group. Will you admit that, or is this another Simpson's paradox?


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Do you have some examples where this is not true?


When truth is determined by ones own point of view, you can not argue it……


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Have you heard of disease reservoirs?  This tweet makes no sense.


Explain.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> Hansen’s Disease comes to mind.


And?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> When truth is determined by ones own point of view, you can not argue it……


That's an interesting philosophy, but you gave no examples to illustrate it.


----------



## espola

Bruddah IZ said:


> And?


Hint:  it's in the Bible.


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> And?


…and for thousands of years people have ‘blamed’ the ‘unclean’ lepers for spreading that disease.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> Apologies for posting more facts.
> 
> View attachment 11572


Looks like a lot of natural immunity in the blue line.   How many of the blue liners end up getting vaccinated and becoming a part of the green line that obviously contains not previously infected folks?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> …and for thousands of years people have ‘blamed’ the ‘unclean’ lepers for spreading that disease.


I have always liked this scene --


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It's worse than that.  The troll honestly can't think of any time in all of history when one human got mad at another for spreading disease.


Hanapaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> ...just a selfish prick.


Hilarious.  Kulldorf goaded half of twitter with that tweet.  You people repeating history cracks me up.  Biblical history at that.  Good morning tyrants.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interesting - thanks for posting. However, I was referring to cases, not deaths.


Funny how caseteria was all the rage from the beginning.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You have really poor judgment in selecting allies.


You'll get over it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That is a significant misrepresentation, Grace.
> 
> The study did not find that surgical masks are associated with a 10% decline in cases.  The study found that _*partial*_ adoption of surgical masks was associated with an 11.2% decline in cases.   The actual change to mask wearing was only 28 percentage points.   Complete adoption of surgical masks would be expected to cause a larger change than partial adoption.   If it is linear, a 40% decline.
> 
> Slightly more, since the surgical masks they used were washable and had a lower filtration efficiency than the disposable ones.
> 
> Cloth masks were not found to be useless.  The study was underpowered to answer that question.  The median estimate for cloth masks was that they were about 1/2 as effective as reusable surgical masks.
> 
> In all, the study was strong evidence that masks work, and that you should upgrade from cloth to surgical.


Take The Mask Quiz


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NOVA.Dad said:


> Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19
> 
> 
> Scientists conducted a randomized trial across 600 villages and more than 340,000 people in Bangladesh and found that even some adoption of surgical masks made a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


"Masks certainly help, but we can't mask our way out of the pandemic."- Bogoch      Baaaaaaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Strawman


He's in Australia breaking people's backs as I type.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Every masked group fared better than every unmasked group. Will you admit that, or is this another Simpson's paradox?


"Spit out coffee clean up on aisle 4, spit out coffee clean up on aisle 4"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Hint:  it's in the Bible.


Chapter and verse please.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Looks like a nice trailer and a great spot but that's NOT Alabama.


Just outside of Bishop.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> …and for thousands of years people have ‘blamed’ the ‘unclean’ lepers for spreading that disease.


The modern day 'unclean' eh?


----------



## watfly

NOVA.Dad said:


> ...just a selfish prick.


Oh the irony.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> …and for thousands of years people have ‘blamed’ the ‘unclean’ lepers for spreading that disease.


Good news, it has about 95% natural immunity.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> Good news, it has about 95% natural immunity.


Yawn.  Let us know when it hits 99%.  (no mask, pre-vax, post-Toby Keith and Alabama Concert.)


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> The modern day 'unclean' eh?


Sure feels like it, which is saying a lot… I had always hoped mankind had grown in the last few thousand years.

Guess the fear of social isolation is an age old tool wielded to protect the general populace.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yeah yeah yeah we know the drill. My representation of the study is that there’s quite a lot in there for both sides to hate and there’s quite a lot for both to criticize by way of methodology.  I think we just both proved that.  But between you and me, its only the true believer that tried to argue this study is great for masking.


You said what you wanted to be true, and then pretended that it was in the study.  The study specifically disavows your chosen misrepresentation:

*”Our results should not be taken to imply that masks can prevent only 10% of COVID-19 cases, let alone 10% of COVID-19 mortality.”*

It is the first sentence of the bottom paragraph on page 30.  

Go ahead and make your “masks = religion” rhetoric.  Whatever.  Toss in a few ad hominem attacks while you’re at it.   

The study itself is worth reading,



			https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Sure feels like it, which is saying a lot… I had always hoped mankind had grown in the last few thousand years.
> 
> Guess the fear of social isolation is an age old tool wielded to protect the general populace.


I know there are treatments today for Hansen's.  Is there a vaccine?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I know there are treatments today for Hansen's.  Is there a vaccine?


I believe it is a bacterial pathogen, so.. hand sanitizer.  But still, there is value to the parable that doesn’t conform to either side (who’s taking sides) of the policy discussion.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> That's an interesting philosophy, but you gave no examples to illustrate it.


You’ve already done that for me Magoo….you just don’t realize it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You said what you wanted to be true, and then pretended that it was in the study.  The study specifically disavows your chosen misrepresentation:
> 
> *”Our results should not be taken to imply that masks can prevent only 10% of COVID-19 cases, let alone 10% of COVID-19 mortality.”*
> 
> It is the first sentence of the bottom paragraph on page 30.
> 
> Go ahead and make your “masks = religion” rhetoric.  Whatever.  Toss in a few ad hominem attacks while you’re at it.
> 
> The study itself is worth reading,
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf


I specifically noted there’s a potential upside there (note also it’s not as easy as multiplying the 10% by 4).  I also noted there was probably a discount there since the study measured both masks and distancing effects instead of isolating the distancing effects out. And I’m the one that’s hearing only what they want to be true????


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> You’ve already done that for me Magoo….you just don’t realize it.


Circle.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I specifically noted there’s a potential upside there (note also it’s not as easy as multiplying the 10% by 4).  I also noted there was probably a discount there since the study measured both masks and distancing effects instead of isolating the distancing effects out. And I’m the one that’s hearing only what they want to be true????


Your summary was the one specifically disavowed by the study authors.

Why should I treat it as anything other than deliberate misrepresentation?

There is plenty to discuss with the right way to isolate the mask effect from the distance effect, as well as whether and how you can extrapolate from 28% to higher percentages.

But if you're going to flat out lie about what is and is not in the study, then there is no point in having that discussion with you.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Your summary was the one specifically disavowed by the study authors.
> 
> Why should I treat it as anything other than deliberate misrepresentation?
> 
> There is plenty to discuss with the right way to isolate the mask effect from the distance effect, as well as whether and how you can extrapolate from 28% to higher percentages.
> 
> But if you're going to flat out lie about what is and is not in the study, then there is no point in having that discussion with you.


In one of Grace's multiple universes, she is telling the truth,


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your summary was the one specifically disavowed by the study authors.
> 
> Why should I treat it as anything other than deliberate misrepresentation?
> 
> There is plenty to discuss with the right way to isolate the mask effect from the distance effect, as well as whether and how you can extrapolate from 28% to higher percentages.
> 
> But if you're going to flat out lie about what is and is not in the study, then there is no point in having that discussion with you.


Again, man, you are hearing what you want to hear.  I said there was potential upside.  But you are taking a mixed study and trying to use it to say "yeah masking!"  And then saying I'm the one that sees what she wants to.

What's truly funny is despite all the data being presented and the fact that much of Europe and several industries have disavowed it, you are still willing to die on the cloth mask hill.  That reminds me of conversations back at the Div School with the Catholics debating the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary and when presented with evidence that Jesus's brother was the first leader of the church, they will go to any steps to rewrite the record to save that one hill.  Faith man...funny thing.


----------



## Grace T.

I post the below not just for the initial antimask take by Martin Kulldorff but there's some really good back and forth there from the pro maskers and antimaskers about the limitations of the study and what it shows and doesn't show.  Good read on both side.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433202651106201607


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I post the below not just for the initial antimask take by Martin Kulldorff but there's some really good back and forth there from the pro maskers and antimaskers about the limitations of the study and what it shows and doesn't show.  Good read on both side.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433202651106201607


Looks like free rein for loons to post nonsense.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Looks like free rein for loons to post nonsense.


Kinda like here, huh?  Present company included.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Looks like free rein for loons to post nonsense.


Plus this one has already been linked, again just on our little site, at least once already.  It's remarkable how many people are independently and closely following biostaticians' Twitter feeds.......


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Plus this one has already been linked, again just on our little site, at least once already.  It's remarkable how many people are independently and closely following biostaticians' Twitter feeds.......


It’s pretty shoddy work for a statistician.   The p value is clearly below 0.05, so he uses rounded confidence intervals to get the result he wants.  

That’s the kind of thing you get marked off for as an undergrad.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It’s pretty shoddy work for a statistician.   The p value is clearly below 0.05, so he uses rounded confidence intervals to get the result he wants.
> 
> That’s the kind of thing you get marked off for as an undergrad.


Where do they get you tyrants from?  The bible?  He goaded you clowns all the way back to grad school.  Lmao!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Looks like free rein for loons to post nonsense.


Heilspola!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430588422935040007


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> It’s pretty shoddy work for a statistician.   The p value is clearly below 0.05, so he uses rounded confidence intervals to get the result he wants.
> 
> That’s the kind of thing you get marked off for as an undergrad.


Kulldorf's at Harvard so he presumably has/had some chops.  But it also means he's got to bring in the flow, not just public funding agency flow but deep pocket flow.  He's one of the Barrington Declaration people.  Its interesting that it seems to me epidemiology draws from at least two different groups, which can tend to have different political leanings.  There's immunology with a kind of medical let's help people orientation and then the more mathematical side of epidemiology which can be pretty pure Darwinian in it's outlook.  So in Kulldorf's case he gets a lot of support from conservative economic think tanks.  And of course there will be the left wing equivalent of that.  All well and good in terms of academic debate that can be considered by policy makers I guess.  But its also the sort of thing that affords low hanging fruit in the infodemic, ready made to order tweets that can be picked up and sprayed out all over the internet by whatever actors are driving this.  And in Kulldorf's case if you bother to circle back and click I'm sure it helps sell his book.  Notoriety is good.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Kulldorf's at Harvard so he presumably has/had some chops.  But it also means he's got to bring in the flow, not just public funding agency flow but deep pocket flow.  He's one of the Barrington Declaration people.  Its interesting that it seems to me epidemiology draws from at least two different groups, which can tend to have different political leanings.  There's immunology with a kind of medical let's help people orientation and then the more mathematical side of epidemiology which can be pretty pure Darwinian in it's outlook.  So in Kulldorf's case he gets a lot of support from conservative economic think tanks.  And of course there will be the left wing equivalent of that.  All well and good in terms of academic debate that can be considered by policy makers I guess.  But its also the sort of thing that affords low hanging fruit in the infodemic, ready made to order tweets that can be picked up and sprayed out all over the internet by whatever actors are driving this.  And in Kulldorf's case if you bother to circle back and click I'm sure it helps sell his book.  Notoriety is good.


I don’t doubt he knows how to do the math properly.  Part of his job is to mark down the grad students when they make that exact error.  

I wouldn’t count on policy makers to be able to follow it, though.   I’ve been in that room.   They will hear nothing more than that there are famous sounding people arguing both ways.   Arguably, that is the goal of the weaker side in each debate: throw enough sand that it’s all blurry.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Its interesting that it seems to me epidemiology draws from at least two different groups, which can tend to have different political leanings.  There's immunology with a kind of medical let's help people orientation and then the more mathematical side of epidemiology which can be pretty pure Darwinian in it's outlook.


Your bias is showing


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I don’t doubt he knows how to do the math properly.  Part of his job is to mark down the grad students when they make that exact error.
> 
> I wouldn’t count on policy makers to be able to follow it, though.   I’ve been in that room.   They will hear nothing more than that there are famous sounding people arguing both ways.   Arguably, that is the goal of the weaker side in each debate: throw enough sand that it’s all blurry.


I see we've moved on from the let's question the person's credentials/abilities phase, and are now in the let's question his motives.


----------



## notintheface

This is the stupidest thread on this entire board. All of you antivaxxers aren't going to convince anyone of anything. What are people going to do, take the t-cells out of their body?


----------



## Grace T.

notintheface said:


> This is the stupidest thread on this entire board. All of you antivaxxers aren't going to convince anyone of anything. What are people going to do, take the t-cells out of their body?


a. I see your charming self is lurking here again.  Any more c words you want to throw around?
b. If it's so stupid, why ya here?
c. Don't paint all of us with the broad stroke.  Some of antilockdowners are not antivaxxer.
d. Your "stupidest thread" claim is demonstrably false.  Climate and Weather, President Joe Biden, Today in Fascism and Espola's neighborhood are all more stupid, and that is self-evident.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I see we've moved on from the let's question the person's credentials/abilities phase, and are now in the let's question his motives.


Fair enough.  Let’s talk about the actual argument he put forward.  He claimed that the CI was 0-22%.

To get this result, he did round things to the nearest whole number in a way which changed the answer.  Normally, that’s a big no-no on the AP.  Are you saying it’s actually good practice?


----------



## Grace T.

At least for public entities, in the US the vaccine mandates are going to get legally tricky unless: a) there's some exemption for people who can demonstrate they've had COVID, or b) there's some definitive evidence that shows natural immunity is less than vaccine immunity (recent evidence has pointed contra, but it hasn't been definitively resolved).  This case settled, but George Mason wound up having to grant a medical exemption to the professor who said he had COVID before, but the professor was forced to live with some restrictions like testing which he didn't want.  There will probably be more lawsuits.









						George Mason University grants vaccine exemption following prof's lawsuit
					

The professor claimed the vaccine was unnecessary because of his natural immunity, but GMU maintains that natural immunity is not grounds for an exemption.




					www.hrdive.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I don’t doubt he knows how to do the math properly.  Part of his job is to mark down the grad students when they make that exact error.
> 
> I wouldn’t count on policy makers to be able to follow it, though.   I’ve been in that room.   They will hear nothing more than that there are famous sounding people arguing both ways.   Arguably, that is the goal of the weaker side in each debate: throw enough sand that it’s all blurry.


A lawyer one told me that the expert with the best looking shoes wins.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Fair enough.  Let’s talk about the actual argument he put forward.  He claimed that the CI was 0-22%.
> 
> To get this result, he did round things to the nearest whole number in a way which changed the answer.  Normally, that’s a big no-no on the AP.  Are you saying it’s actually good practice?


Better.  I would never presume to take up math with you (tip of the hat).  You'd have to take it up with him (he answers most sincere challenges on twitter....go for it....if your math credentials are really up to snuff he'll respect you).  I'm not boosting him.  I'm saying the discussion (including the challenges to him) are interesting.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> A lawyer one told me that the expert with the best looking shoes wins.


It's actually the one with the most gray hair.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Better.  I would never presume to take up math with you (tip of the hat).  You'd have to take it up with him (he answers most sincere challenges on twitter....go for it....if your math credentials are really up to snuff he'll respect you).  I'm not boosting him.  I'm saying the discussion (including the challenges to him) are interesting.


No need.  I got my ego boost back in my undergrad days by getting Marty Feldstein to have to issue a correction in front of the entire class.  Tripping up Kulldorf on a stats error is small potatoes after that.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your bias is showing


Biased toward reality?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. I see your charming self is lurking here again.  Any more c words you want to throw around?
> b. If it's so stupid, why ya here?
> c. Don't paint all of us with the broad stroke.  Some of antilockdowners are not antivaxxer.
> d. Your "stupidest thread" claim is demonstrably false.  Climate and Weather, President Joe Biden, Today in Fascism and Espola's neighborhood are all more stupid, and that is self-evident.


I suppose that since you are making a judgment on espola's neighborhood that means you actually read it.

To quote a famous man -- "Mission Accomplished"

(...and it's espola's newest neighborhood now...)


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> a. I see your charming self is lurking here again.  Any more c words you want to throw around?
> b. If it's so stupid, why ya here?
> c. Don't paint all of us with the broad stroke.  Some of antilockdowners are not antivaxxer.
> d. Your "stupidest thread" claim is demonstrably false.  Climate and Weather, President Joe Biden, Today in Fascism and Espola's neighborhood are all more stupid, and that is self-evident.


Damn, did someone say "misogynistic troll" three times?


----------



## Desert Hound

I believe @dad4 is a big fan of the way Australia deals with covid. 

To be honest what they are doing is terribly authoritarian in nature. Take a peak below.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way here is the link to the article









						Australia Traded Away Too Much Liberty
					

How long can a democracy maintain emergency restrictions and still call itself a free country?




					www.theatlantic.com
				




"But if a country indefinitely forbids its own citizens from leaving its borders, strands tens of thousands of its citizens abroad, puts strict rules on intrastate travel, prohibits citizens from leaving home without an excuse from an official government list, mandates masks even when people are outdoors and socially distanced, deploys the military to enforce those rules, bans protest, and arrests and fines dissenters, is that country still a liberal democracy?"


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> By the way here is the link to the article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia Traded Away Too Much Liberty
> 
> 
> How long can a democracy maintain emergency restrictions and still call itself a free country?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "But if a country indefinitely forbids its own citizens from leaving its borders, strands tens of thousands of its citizens abroad, puts strict rules on intrastate travel, prohibits citizens from leaving home without an excuse from an official government list, mandates masks even when people are outdoors and socially distanced, deploys the military to enforce those rules, bans protest, and arrests and fines dissenters, is that country still a liberal democracy?"



And yet.....









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Even if they are at peak it's still at least another month and a half of restrictions if they are trying to drive it down to zero again (which is about the same time frame anyways they'll get a helping hand due to changing seasonality)


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> And yet.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if they are at peak it's still at least another month and a half of restrictions if they are trying to drive it down to zero again (which is about the same time frame anyways they'll get a helping hand due to changing seasonality)


One of the selling points with Australia has been that economically they've overperformed the other economies hit by COVID.  Not so much anymore.









						Forget the technical jargon – Australia’s in a Covid recession right now
					

The country mightn’t technically be in recession but most of the figures amid widespread lockdowns are grim, apart from property sales




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Climate and Weather...stupid


I have not been by since the last badger sighting but climate and weather from about 4 years ago (if memory serves) was one of my favorite threads I've ever jumped on, here or elsewhere.  I take it a lot of the posters from that time (although there are still some long-haulers!) have moved on.  The infodemic was just in its infancy.  It had not yet been professionalized and the methods fine tuned to the point that we see here.  So you still had these individual groups who were going to all the trouble to create alternative data sets that they would upload onto the internet, which would then get picked up and show up on the soccer forum somehow.  Like they'd wrap a light bulb in tin foil, heat it up, turn it off, take some readings with a digital thermocouple, plug it all into a spreadsheet and conclude that the entirety of black body radiation physics had to be wrong.  It was like getting to play along inside a Firesign Theatre skit.  So that one was a lot of fun actually.  Thanks E for the good times!

As I recall we even had poetry corner time outs when things would get a little heated.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I have not been by since the last badger sighting but climate and weather from about 4 years ago (if memory serves) was one of my favorite threads I've ever jumped on, here or elsewhere.  I take it a lot of the posters from that time (although there are still some long-haulers!) have moved on.  The infodemic was just in its infancy.  It had not yet been professionalized and the methods fine tuned to the point that we see here.  So you still had these individual groups who were going to all the trouble to create alternative data sets that they would upload onto the internet, which would then get picked up and show up on the soccer forum somehow.  Like they'd wrap a light bulb in tin foil, heat it up, turn it off, take some readings with a digital thermocouple, plug it all into a spreadsheet and conclude that the entirety of black body radiation physics had to be wrong.  It was like getting to play along inside a Firesign Theatre skit.  So that one was a lot of fun actually.  Thanks E for the good times!
> 
> As I recall we even had poetry corner time outs when things would get a little heated.


I think most of the alternative-fact-based theories that deniers were using have been overwhelmed by evidence, so they gave up trying.  They missed a good chance for a topical debate, too, since so far this year's global temperatures have been the lowest since 2014.  Untested topics would include Is global warming over?  Is this a result of the 2020 economic slowdown?  Is this a result of China finally clamping down on greenhouse gas emissions?  It could have gone on and on.

Maybe "deniers" is too strong a word -- misinformed comes to mind since there has been so much of that flavor around here lately on other topics.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No need.  I got my ego boost back in my undergrad days by getting Marty Feldstein to have to issue a correction in front of the entire class.  Tripping up Kulldorf on a stats error is small potatoes after that.


Spit that other hook out first.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I see we've moved on from the let's question the person's credentials/abilities phase, and are now in the let's question his motives.


They get caught cheating & lying and all they have left is hate with division.  Sad how the Elitist behave when caught cheating and so much more.  I have to leave the state Grace.  The hate I got today from a few is too much for my soul.  It's getting bad in some people.


----------



## Grace T.

83% of Americans (adults and teens only, since younger children don't donate blood) have antibodies from either natural immunity or vaccines yet herd immunity still seems elusive.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433517047577726991


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 83% of Americans (adults and teens only, since younger children don't donate blood) have antibodies from either natural immunity or vaccines yet herd immunity still seems elusive.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433517047577726991


I'll hazard a guess that the portion of the US population that donates blood is heavily biased toward getting vaccinated.  Just a hunch.

I'll let dad4 tell us the proper name for that phenomenon of biased selections.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'll hazard a guess that the portion of the US population that donates blood is heavily biased toward getting vaccinated.  Just a hunch.
> 
> I'll let dad4 tell us the proper name for that phenomenon of biased selections.


1. Fine
2. It’s the cdc doing it. Thought y’all loved the cdc?
3. They do a comparison to January which is also interesting
4. In the comparison they take a straight 1 to 1 against the single dose us vaccine rate.  How magical is that?


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I'll hazard a guess that the portion of the US population that donates blood is heavily biased toward getting vaccinated.  Just a hunch.
> 
> I'll let dad4 tell us the proper name for that phenomenon of biased selections.


Wait….your not saying that the CDC would issue a somewhat skewed or biased study, are you?

(Que the beginning of a circular, deflectionary argument in 3….2….)


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. Fine
> 2. It’s the cdc doing it. Thought y’all loved the cdc?
> 3. They do a comparison to January which is also interesting
> 4. In the comparison they take a straight 1 to 1 against the single dose us vaccine rate.  How magical is that?


Which universe did that response come from?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> I'll hazard a guess that the portion of the US population that donates blood is heavily biased toward getting vaccinated.  Just a hunch.
> 
> I'll let dad4 tell us the proper name for that phenomenon of biased selections.


You don't need to guess.  The diagram shows 63.1% of blood donors had vaccine antibodies on May 21.

You can just compare that to the 18-64 vax rate for late May.   That will roughly tell you whether there is a selection bias or not.  Just be sure to use the single dose number instead of the fully vaccinated number.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Wait….your not saying that the CDC would issue a somewhat skewed or biased study, are you?
> 
> (Que the beginning of a circular, deflectionary argument in 3….2….)


I would accept the CDC study for what it is, not what people want it to be.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I would accept the CDC study for what it is, not what people want it to be.


Well played….so what is it exactly?


----------



## dad4

Weird that it is so political we have trouble believing a simple study.

They measure antibodies in donated blood to get a rough idea of how much room there is for Delta to grow.  This helps them plan for fall, so we don't run out of oxygen when some of us get sick.

Why are we finding fault with this?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bat Shit Crazy Tyrants


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> 83% of Americans (adults and teens only, since younger children don't donate blood) have antibodies from either natural immunity or vaccines yet herd immunity still seems elusive.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433517047577726991


*includes unknown percentage of vaccinated people


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> They get caught cheating & lying and all they have left is hate with division.  Sad how the Elitist behave when caught cheating and so much more.  I have to leave the state Grace.  The hate I got today from a few is too much for my soul.  It's getting bad in some people.


The internet reaches far and wide. Check in often.  If I got it right you've got an 04 kid.  Do they get to finish out their final club/high school year?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ok, this IS the vaccine thread. I got my second shingles shot last week in the morning. By 9:00 PM, I had a fever and muscle aches. Within an hour or so, I had the worst headache I can remember - everything hurt from my head to my feet. It was much worse than the 2nd Covid shot. I finally got to sleep around 4:00 AM. The next day was just muscle aches, low fever, and a minor headache. I was thrilled with those symptoms after the prior night. Everyone handles these shots differently, but just a head's up if you get it.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, this IS the vaccine thread. I got my second shingles shot last week in the morning. By 9:00 PM, I had a fever and muscle aches. Within an hour or so, I had the worst headache I can remember - everything hurt from my head to my feet. It was much worse than the 2nd Covid shot. I finally got to sleep around 4:00 AM. The next day was just muscle aches, low fever, and a minor headache. I was thrilled with those symptoms after the prior night. Everyone handles these shots differently, but just a head's up if you get it.


Thanks for the update bro.  I'm still the non vaxxing, drunk driving, domestic terrorist schmuck.  I feel the best ever though in my life.  No illnesses in 20 months.  I do feel pain in my soul for all the hate & division.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Thanks for the update bro.  I'm still the non vaxxing, drunk driving, domestic terrorist schmuck.  I feel the best ever though in my life.  No illnesses in 20 months.  I do feel pain in my soul for all the hate & division.


Yes, lot of division out there, Crush. I am very happy to hear you are staying healthy.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, lot of division out there, Crush. I am very happy to hear you are *staying healthy.*


Physically I'm on "fire" bro.  However, my mental health has taken a troll.  I know so many on here play Doc and they told me I need to stay on my meds.  I don't take Big Farma though and have no meds to take.  I only use what God gave me.  I went to a b of a bank yesterday to seek help and no one was in the bank doing any banking.  Empty!!!  Only one lady at the teller place and no one around her.  Big, thick glass was between her and eye. She had this huge mask on her face that was ugly.  She was at least 100 pounds over weight.  She had fear written all over her.  I asked her, "they still got you wearing the mask?"  She said it's her choice to stay healthy.  It went way down hill from there and I stormed out after 25 minutes of complete and utter BS.  B of a is a joke.  I actually had to drive to three branches before I found one that was open.  Evil dude is weirdo troll?


----------



## N00B

kickingandscreaming said:


> I got my second shingles shot last week in the morning.


I hope they warned you of the expected reaction that you experienced.

“Schedule that second shingles shot on a Friday so you don’t miss the next day at work.”


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> I hope they warned you of the expected reaction that you experienced.
> 
> “Schedule that second shingles shot on a Friday so you don’t miss the next day at work.”


Actually, I looked it up after I got the first shot and had some muscle aches and fatigue. My experience has been that the explanation of side effects is underplayed. I can't remember a time where I had side effects described without the word "mild". I assume this is out of fear I won't get the shot. Shingles is no joke. Even if I would have known I'd have more than mild side effects, I still would have taken it.

Good advice about timing that 2nd dose.


----------



## espola




----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Evil dude is weirdo troll?


I don't know. I find most of his posts difficult to read through so I don't.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

It's all just an accident.....









						THE MASKS BEGIN TO FALL!!!!
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## espola

Your vaccine doesn't matter to me, followed by an admission that he is already vaccinated --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433817250788696068


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 11586


*F*** Espola!*


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> *F*** Espola!*


If you have a right to refuse the vaccine, then they have a right to stay away from you.

You don’t have a right to infect them just because you pay $7.50 for a plate of chop suey.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> If you have a right to refuse the vaccine, then they have a right to stay away from you.
> 
> You don’t have a right to infect them just because you pay $7.50 for a plate of chop suey.


Freedom to choose is where were all going.  EVERYONE will be F***!!!!!


----------



## met61

Live with it.
cc: Australia


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433917680965275655


----------



## crush

*Israel*
*- The only country giving 3rd shot for everyone aged 12+
- Covid passports for 12+
- Multiple lockdowns
- Mask mandates

Sweden
- No boosters
- No Covid passports
- No lockdowns*
*- No masks *


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> View attachment 11595
> 
> *Israel*
> *- The only country giving 3rd shot for everyone aged 12+
> - Covid passports for 12+
> - Multiple lockdowns
> - Mask mandates
> 
> Sweden
> - No boosters
> - No Covid passports
> - No lockdowns*
> *- No masks *


By now, I think everyone here knows the game.  

Someone else compares countries until he finds two that fit his particular axe to grind.  If necessary, he trims off the part of the chart to make to look more convincing.  In this case, Sweden’s case spike lasted from late October to mid May.  By starting March 2021, he hides roughly 60% of Sweden‘s case spike.

Then he posts the misleading chart to the internet, and some yokel reposts it here without understanding it.  Usually, that yokel is Dizzy.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> By now, I think everyone here knows the game.
> 
> Someone else compares countries until he finds two that fit his particular axe to grind.  If necessary, he trims off the part of the chart to make to look more convincing.  In this case, Sweden’s case spike lasted from late October to mid May.  By starting March 2021, he hides roughly 60% of Sweden‘s case spike.
> 
> Then he posts the misleading chart to the internet, and some yokel reposts it here without understanding it.  Usually, that yokel is Dizzy.


Dad, I took this off some dudes Gab post.  What are the true numbers Mr. Fact Checker?  BTW, my pal is still on blood thinner and not doing well.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Your vaccine doesn't matter to me, followed by an admission that he is already vaccinated --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433817250788696068


Freakin’ anti-vaxxer!


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Dad, I took this off some dudes Gab post.  What are the true numbers Mr. Fact Checker?  BTW, my pal is still on blood thinner and not doing well.


True numbers are that Sweden and Israel have almost identical vaccination rates.  Both at about 67%.  Sweden gave more first shots.  Israel gave more second shots.   But almost exactly the same.

Sorry to hear that your friend is ill.  Hope he feels better soon.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> By now, I think everyone here knows the game.
> 
> Someone else compares countries until he finds two that fit his particular axe to grind.  If necessary, he trims off the part of the chart to make to look more convincing.  In this case, Sweden’s case spike lasted from late October to mid May.  By starting March 2021, he hides roughly 60% of Sweden‘s case spike.
> 
> Then he posts the misleading chart to the internet, and some yokel reposts it here without understanding it.  Usually, that yokel is Dizzy.


You’re babbling.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> True numbers are that Sweden and Israel have almost identical vaccination rates.  Both at about 67%.  Sweden gave more first shots.  Israel gave more second shots.   But almost exactly the same.
> 
> Sorry to hear that your friend is ill.  Hope he feels better soon.


Thanks dad, i'll let him know you feel sorry for him.  I woke this morning knowing I will NEVER, EVER get tricked by the Hamster Wheel ever again.  I saw all this back in grade school.  I get on the wheel thinking like my pal Colin. Dude has had this plan that if he works 5 more years as a slave to the system, he will retire as a King in Bali.  55 year old male with lots of money will be treated like a King too let me tell you.  Anyway, hes not going now because he is anti jab and he is so upset that his plan is toast.  I warned him two years ago to retire then and be free.


----------



## espola




----------



## Multi Sport

Ignore this if you don't like facts.









						Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History
					

American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...




					www.justice.gov


----------



## espola

DeSantis roasted by Miami paper --



			https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article253954748.html


----------



## crush

Camp Justice is expanding the court house.  I think I know why Adam was trying to shut the Bay down. 









						GITMO EXPANDING (BECAUSE TRUMP IS THE PRESIDENT) and (NOTHING CAN STOP WHAT'S COMING)
					

THE_HIGH_COMMAND: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/2pZ6g7DTmL61/  Unholy Grail: Adrenochrome, the “White Rabbit” Elixir Pursued by Blackhearted Elites: https://www.independentsentinel.com/unholy-grail-adrenochrome-the-white-rabbit-elixir-pursued…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound

This guy makes some very good points.

"I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution

I am not anti vaccine. I am anti vaccine mandate, particularly in the case of the novel mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. As with all of you, I watched in horror from my position at a big hospital in February 2020 as COVID-19 ravaged Italy. The virus was spreading globally, nothing seemed to stop it, and thousands were dying with no effective treatment to be found. It was truly a nightmare scenario.

Physicians and scientists were collaborating globally using Facebook and Twitter to speed the spread of new information and ideas around the world within minutes. Major scientific journals expedited the release and publication of COVID related articles and made them free to access. It was amazing. This was going to be a global triumph. But then politics joined the fray. And when politics and science mix, science loses. *What the government scientists spoke was the truth, everything else was labelled misinformation and banned.*

For centuries the scientific method invited questions, invited curiosity. Stupid questions and fringe ideas overturned scientific dogma throughout history. It is how we advance science. We question results, question truth, keep experimenting. But when politics and science mix, science loses. Fringe ideas such as a heliocentric solar system get Copernicus and Galileo thrown out of the church. *Offering an alternative treatment to COVID, or questioning the effectiveness of masks gets you banned from Facebook and YouTube.*

The family of coronaviruses is fairly common. It along with rhinovirus, adenovirus and enterovirus typically cause symptoms of the common cold. A vaccine which can tackle some or all of these viruses would be a windfall for any pharmaceutical company. Cure for the common cold. But the cure does not exist. Prior to 2020, we have never successfully made a vaccine against the coronavirus. Prior to 2020, we have also never made a vaccine using the mRNA technology. But, within months of isolating SARS COV-2, we not only have a vaccine against a coronavirus, but one using mRNA technology, AND near simultaneous release by several companies globally."


----------



## Desert Hound

Continued....

"This should warrant cautious optimism from the medical and scientific community. Yes it works, but is it safe? Is it necessary? By the time of release of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines in late 2020, we were gaining control of the pandemic. We were finding effective treatment strategies, deaths were down. We identified vulnerable populations. The vaccine was promising, but the urgency was waning. It left time for careful consideration. *Be scientists. Ask questions. What are the side effects? How long does immunity last? Is it effective against variants? What are the longer term, unseen effects? We don’t know. Let’s find out.*


The majority of COVID-19 deaths are in people over 60 with other significant medical problems. It is reasonable to focus vaccine efforts on this population. There may be some unseen risk to the vaccine, but they stand a significant chance of dying from COVID. *The benefit outweighs the risk*. That is a decision we make all the time in medicine. The treatment has drawbacks, but the disease is worse. But in the less vulnerable population? *Let’s wait a little bit*. There are two novel aspects to this vaccine. The mRNA mechanism, and the Coronavirus target. We need careful consideration to find out what the risks of the vaccine really are.
That did not happen. When politics and science mix, science loses. Hurry up! Vaccinate everyone. We will restrict you until you are vaccinated. No 4th of July if we don’t reach vaccination goals! Hurry up!
AstraZeneca was the first to be pulled in Europe because of unanticipated blood clotting issues. The Johnson and Johnson adenovirus vector vaccine faced some early questions here at home. Healthy people were getting ill, suffering long term appetite suppression and cardiomyopathy after the vaccine. Wait. Stop. Slow down. Let’s take time to look at this closer before we forge ahead. No. When politics and science mix, science loses. Just shut up and take the jab. You are banned from Facebook for spreading misinformation about your vaccine side effects."


----------



## Desert Hound

Continued...


"The vaccine was designed for the original COVID. We are now Delta dominant. Cases are surging. Companies are mandating the vaccine with threat of firing for noncompliance, mandating the vaccine to fly, mandating the vaccine to attend a game. The FDA made a hasty approval of the Pfizer vaccine, and the floodgates have opened. Now, under the thin veneer of FDA approval, more companies, my hospital included, are mandating the vaccine in order to remain employed.

The hospital’s rationale is that the Delta surge is driven by the unvaccinated. *Is this true?* The data out of Israel, who is months ahead of our curve with Delta says the opposite. *Those who have never had COVID, but did receive the full 2 dose Pfizer regimen are 13 times more likely to get Delta than those with natural immunity, those who contracted the original COVID and recovered. 13 times more likely to contract Delta if you are vaccinated.*

And of those who were vaccinated and contracted Delta, how long was it between vaccination and infection with Delta? Four months. Israelis were vaccinated in Jan/Feb and contracted Delta by June.

*So we have a twice novel vaccine with known immediate side effects, no long term study , and which only seems to be effective against the current variant for 4-6 months. Will “take the jab or be fired” be a recurring threat from Big Hospital going forward? Every 6 months, get your booster or you are fired?*

They reply “But those who are vaccinated and contract Delta don’t get as sick!” *Right, but they are still contagious, and now not sick enough to stay home. And if there is a risk of harm from taking a new vaccine, and the only benefit is that I get less sick, that choice should be mine, not forced under threat of unemployment."*


----------



## Desert Hound

Continued.


"And speaking about long term effects, are we seeing any now?* Long term effects are just that. They happen months or years later. This is why a new drug takes years to come to market. *The FDA graveyard is littered with medications which made it through the approval process, only to be recalled due to an unforeseen long term consequence. Try to buy Zantac, a once popular OTC antacid, at CVS. It was just recalled because an impurity causes cancer. Didn’t see that coming. Vioxx, thalidomide, fen-phen… oops.

What are the long term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Who knows. There is early evidence of decreased numbers of an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the early surveillance team which seeks out and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. Dr. Ryan Cole, a pathologist and immunologist in Idaho has noticed an increase in invasive melanomas, endometrial cancer, and cervical dysplasia as well as common viral infections such as molluscum, HPV and HSV. These are typically conditions a healthy immune system with functioning CD-8 cells would knock out before you even knew about it. But in post vaccinated people, these infections and cancer are quickly becoming more common. Suppressed T cells are not there to stop it. *This is anecdote, not a published study, but this is the kind of thing that spurs questions in a healthy scientific community. We consider the issue, study it find the data, prove the hypothesis. But in today’s world, Dr. Cole is labelled a kook, ostracized, videos deleted from YouTube for spreading misinformation. Questioning the dogma.*

There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. *There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."*


----------



## Desert Hound

Continued...


"*The Big Hospital policy cites acceptance of the vaccine by the American College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians (ACOG). Give the vaccine to pregnant women. Really? Where is the caution here? Most medications, common medications prescribed frequently to pregnant women, reglan, zofran, phenergran, tylenol, carry the warning on the package insert that they are not well studied in pregnancy, and use is cautioned. We use them because there are decades of use that show them to be probably safe, but still counsel patients before prescribing. The vaccine? Just give it! It is safe! Despite the fact that it is not possible to have a cohort of newborns large enough to show detrimental effect. Disgraceful. What possible reason is there for the rush? When politics and science mix, science loses*

It may turn out that the Pfizer vaccine was key in our victory over COVID. This may also be a dark time for science and medicine where we allowed our process to be subverted by politics, and patients lost.

In medicine we talk about informed decision making. The old, paternalistic, directive medicine is in the past. We involve patients in their care, inform them, allow them to make the decisions, right or wrong. Politics mixed with science, science has lost and we have now returned to the paternalistic directive medicine of “vaccinate or else”."


----------



## Keepermom2

Multi Sport said:


> Ignore this if you don't like facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History
> 
> 
> American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


What is your point beyond the headline?  I was bated and clicked and what I found is this....

"Pfizer promoted the sale of Bextra for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns. The company will pay a criminal fine of $1.195 billion, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the United States for any matter. Pharmacia & Upjohn will also forfeit $105 million, for a total criminal resolution of $1.3 billion."

What this says to me is the government ensured that a drug company is not allowed to defraud the public with a drug that hasn't been appropriately approved by the FDA for use beyond what it was approved for, and the FDA would not approve a drug when safety concerns existed.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> This guy makes some very good points.
> 
> "I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution
> 
> I am not anti vaccine. I am anti vaccine mandate, particularly in the case of the novel mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. As with all of you, I watched in horror from my position at a big hospital in February 2020 as COVID-19 ravaged Italy. The virus was spreading globally, nothing seemed to stop it, and thousands were dying with no effective treatment to be found. It was truly a nightmare scenario.
> 
> Physicians and scientists were collaborating globally using Facebook and Twitter to speed the spread of new information and ideas around the world within minutes. Major scientific journals expedited the release and publication of COVID related articles and made them free to access. It was amazing. This was going to be a global triumph. But then politics joined the fray. And when politics and science mix, science loses. *What the government scientists spoke was the truth, everything else was labelled misinformation and banned.*
> 
> For centuries the scientific method invited questions, invited curiosity. Stupid questions and fringe ideas overturned scientific dogma throughout history. It is how we advance science. We question results, question truth, keep experimenting. But when politics and science mix, science loses. Fringe ideas such as a heliocentric solar system get Copernicus and Galileo thrown out of the church. *Offering an alternative treatment to COVID, or questioning the effectiveness of masks gets you banned from Facebook and YouTube.*
> 
> The family of coronaviruses is fairly common. It along with rhinovirus, adenovirus and enterovirus typically cause symptoms of the common cold. A vaccine which can tackle some or all of these viruses would be a windfall for any pharmaceutical company. Cure for the common cold. But the cure does not exist. Prior to 2020, we have never successfully made a vaccine against the coronavirus. Prior to 2020, we have also never made a vaccine using the mRNA technology. But, within months of isolating SARS COV-2, we not only have a vaccine against a coronavirus, but one using mRNA technology, AND near simultaneous release by several companies globally."


Someone has jumped the shark.  "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Continued...
> 
> 
> "*The Big Hospital policy cites acceptance of the vaccine by the American College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians (ACOG). Give the vaccine to pregnant women. Really? Where is the caution here? Most medications, common medications prescribed frequently to pregnant women, reglan, zofran, phenergran, tylenol, carry the warning on the package insert that they are not well studied in pregnancy, and use is cautioned. We use them because there are decades of use that show them to be probably safe, but still counsel patients before prescribing. The vaccine? Just give it! It is safe! Despite the fact that it is not possible to have a cohort of newborns large enough to show detrimental effect. Disgraceful. What possible reason is there for the rush? When politics and science mix, science loses*
> 
> It may turn out that the Pfizer vaccine was key in our victory over COVID. This may also be a dark time for science and medicine where we allowed our process to be subverted by politics, and patients lost.
> 
> In medicine we talk about informed decision making. The old, paternalistic, directive medicine is in the past. We involve patients in their care, inform them, allow them to make the decisions, right or wrong. Politics mixed with science, science has lost and we have now returned to the paternalistic directive medicine of “vaccinate or else”."


The vaccine mandates are done out of a combination of fear and arrogance.   I can see a good faith basis for mandates for health care and the military, but you have to allow natural immunity from prior infection as an option, since we all know, but some choose to ignore, that this immunity is significantly stronger than vaccinated immunity.  We also have recognize that while the vaccines are an incredible medical breakthrough, we don't know the long term implications, if any.  I believe that vaccines are primarily safe, but based on my own family's experience, they can have troubling side effects, which I hope are only temporary, but as of yet has not been proven so.

Part of the problem is that the fearful and arrogant are intolerant of nuance.  If you question anything about the vaccine you're labeled an anti-vaxxer and must be insulted and/or silenced.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Continued.
> 
> 
> "And speaking about long term effects, are we seeing any now?* Long term effects are just that. They happen months or years later. This is why a new drug takes years to come to market. *The FDA graveyard is littered with medications which made it through the approval process, only to be recalled due to an unforeseen long term consequence. Try to buy Zantac, a once popular OTC antacid, at CVS. It was just recalled because an impurity causes cancer. Didn’t see that coming. Vioxx, thalidomide, fen-phen… oops.
> 
> What are the long term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Who knows. There is early evidence of decreased numbers of an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the early surveillance team which seeks out and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. Dr. Ryan Cole, a pathologist and immunologist in Idaho has noticed an increase in invasive melanomas, endometrial cancer, and cervical dysplasia as well as common viral infections such as molluscum, HPV and HSV. These are typically conditions a healthy immune system with functioning CD-8 cells would knock out before you even knew about it. But in post vaccinated people, these infections and cancer are quickly becoming more common. Suppressed T cells are not there to stop it. *This is anecdote, not a published study, but this is the kind of thing that spurs questions in a healthy scientific community. We consider the issue, study it find the data, prove the hypothesis. But in today’s world, Dr. Cole is labelled a kook, ostracized, videos deleted from YouTube for spreading misinformation. Questioning the dogma.*
> 
> There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. *There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."*


Oh and Dr. Cole is a kook, which means "this guy" is also.  Dr. Cole, despite being a pathologist, claims to be a horse paste expert and believes we should all be eating it to fight Covid, but that we should not use vaccines because there hasn't been enough research to ensure they are safe. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/video-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/

Where did you get this drivel? Can any of you anti-vaxxers explain why you believe horse paste is perfectly acceptable to take, but not a vaccine? Maybe the highly rational crush guy can explain this to the rest of us.


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. *There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."*


"This guy" clearly has an anti-vax agenda.  The above section is an example where he's mixing nuggets of real things together to come up with a brand new stew that is misleading.  Antibody dependent enhancement is a mechanism where for some viruses, certain antibodies can facilitate entry into certain cells such as macrophages.  Maybe you've heard of this with Dengue and Zika?  In any case, for SARS-CoV2 there just is not data to support the hypothesis that the virus more easily infects people with antibodies against the virus.  Quite the contrary.  And the Israeli study he's citing here actually shows the power of immunity against infection, so it goes completely against the supposed point he's attempting to make.


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> Part of the problem is that the fearful and arrogant are intolerant of nuance.  If you question anything about the vaccine you're labeled an anti-vaxxer and must be insulted and/or silenced.


I agree that there is a lot of intolerance in our society today. Some are stoking the fears for their own agenda, I presume.  In any case, it makes it difficult to have rational, reasoned discussion on solutions when people aren't open to listening. Maybe part of it is that we're uncomfortable with uncertainty.  Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.


----------



## dad4

Multi Sport said:


> Ignore this if you don't like facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History
> 
> 
> American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


I didn’t know you were such a fierce opponent of off label drug use and marketing.

Guess you also have some sharp words for the people promoting ivermectin….


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Someone has jumped the shark.  "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.


It's not just "this guy".  DH has a history of posting nonsense here.  This article, in fact, would be better received here if DH had created a new sockpuppet (or, if he has one already, used that) since it would not have to overcome the baggage of DH's posting history.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Oh and Dr. Cole is a kook, which means "this guy" is also.  Dr. Cole, despite being a pathologist, claims to be a horse paste expert and believes we should all be eating it to fight Covid, but that we should not use vaccines because there hasn't been enough research to ensure they are safe. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/video-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/
> 
> Where did you get this drivel? Can any of you anti-vaxxers explain why you believe horse paste is perfectly acceptable to take, but not a vaccine? Maybe the highly rational crush guy can explain this to the rest of us.


what is horse paste?


----------



## what-happened

Roadrunner said:


> I agree that there is a lot of intolerance in our society today. Some are stoking the fears for their own agenda, I presume.  In any case, it makes it difficult to have rational, reasoned discussion on solutions when people aren't open to listening. Maybe part of it is that we're uncomfortable with uncertainty.  Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.


I would add in intentional misinformation by peopel with agendas on both sides of the argument.  Frustrates the medical community trying to treat their patients in the trenches.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.


I think in some ways this is the biggest issue.  You get different opinions from different "experts", but even worse you get different opinions from the same "expert".  I appreciate that science changes over time, but the pace at which it is changing (and oftentimes in direct contradiction to previous "settled" science) raises significant skepticism, and rightly so.

I understand the concept of erring on the side of caution, but when you only focus on the one issue at hand and ignore, or obfuscate, the costs to other issues, that's not effective public health policy.   When you mandate only one approach to a problem, when there are others, you lose credibility.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> Someone has jumped the shark.  "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.


What point do you find off the mark? 

His main point is we don't know what the long term affects of the vaccines are and as such they should not be mandated on people with little to no risk. 

That is an entirely reasonable approach. 

For those in the very high risk category he advocates them using the vaccine since the benefits outweigh long term risks. 

Another entirely reasonable approach. 

What part do you find objectionable?


----------



## Soccermaverick

On Twitter… My 12-year-old had appendicitis. The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated Covid patients and we had to wait 6+ hours. While waiting, his appendix ruptured and had to spend 5 days in hospital; just got hmo bill of $5000. So yeah, your decision to not vaccinate does affect others.

Sounds like not getting vaccinated is causing others pain. But the antiVax will say he didn’t die did he


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> On Twitter… My 12-year-old had appendicitis. The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated Covid patients and we had to wait 6+ hours. While waiting, his appendix ruptured and had to spend 5 days in hospital; just got hmo bill of $5000. So yeah, your decision to not vaccinate does affect others.
> 
> Sounds like not getting vaccinated is causing others pain. But the antiVax will say he didn’t die did he


Twitter is a great source for information.  Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story.  First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> DeSantis roasted by Miami paper --
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article253954748.html


Zzzzzzzzz


----------



## Soccermaverick

J


Kicker4Life said:


> Twitter is a great source for information.  Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story.  First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?


Just like this site.. your point.. doesn’t negate the truth of hospitals being overwhelmed


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> On Twitter… My 12-year-old had appendicitis. The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated Covid patients and we had to wait 6+ hours. While waiting, his appendix ruptured and had to spend 5 days in hospital; just got hmo bill of $5000. So yeah, your decision to not vaccinate does affect others.
> 
> Sounds like not getting vaccinated is causing others pain. But the antiVax will say he didn’t die did he


Tyrant Cowards

But one distinction between children and adults has, until now, held tight: *adults, collectively, are supposed to protect children, and not the other way around. Sadly, coronavirus seems to have put paid even to this most basic moral certainty. *It has become acceptable for adults to demand that children act to protect them. This shameful state of affairs turns traditional moral values on their head.

The latest example of this role reversal can be seen in the pressure to vaccinate healthy children against Covid despite almost complete agreement that the vaccine is of little medical benefit to them. As vaccinated children will still be able to transmit the virus, *the sole purpose of the proposed roll-out seems to be to make teenagers provide psychological reassurance to fretful adults.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> Twitter is a great source for information.  Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story.  First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?


Cowards are desperate.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Aussies have been told to avoid talking to their neighbours and to wear a mask when driving alone.*

Now let’s look at sunny Queensland. In January, the state’s health authorities made it compulsory to wear a mask while driving alone. Health minister Yvette D’Ath explained the reasoning as follows: ‘We want clear, concise instructions for everyone to follow… So if you put on your mask as soon as you leave the front door – no questions, no exceptions – then that’s much easier to follow.’ This certainly reveals the health authorities’ low view of people’s intelligence. *If they don’t trust Queenslanders to operate a mask, why trust Queenslanders to operate a car?*

Australia’s most populous state, New South Wales, is not immune to such absurdity, either. In July, chief health officer Dr Kerry Chant provided the ultimate excuse, in the name of tackling Covid, for ignoring people you don’t want to talk to:* ‘If you run into your nextdoor neighbour, in the shopping centre, at Coles or Aldi or any other grocery shop, don’t start up a conversation.’

Coo Coo down under....in here too.*


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> What point do you find off the mark?
> 
> His main point is we don't know what the long term affects of the vaccines are and as such they should not be mandated on people with little to no risk.
> 
> That is an entirely reasonable approach.
> 
> For those in the very high risk category he advocates them using the vaccine since the benefits outweigh long term risks.
> 
> Another entirely reasonable approach.
> 
> What part do you find objectionable?


Who is "this guy" you are relying on for your "expert" information? Where did you get this nonsense? You just blew up this thread quoting what appears to be a manifesto from an unidentified person who relies on a pathologist who has been debunked and is a crazy horse paste advocate. There is nothing legitimate in the manifesto or horse paste guy's theories that support the notion that any potential long term risks of getting vaccinated outweigh the potential long term risks of not getting vaccinated.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Oh and Dr. Cole is a kook, which means "this guy" is also.  Dr. Cole, despite being a pathologist, claims to be a horse paste expert and believes we should all be eating it to fight Covid, but that we should not use vaccines because there hasn't been enough research to ensure they are safe. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/video-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/
> 
> Where did you get this drivel? Can any of you anti-vaxxers explain why you believe horse paste is perfectly acceptable to take, but not a vaccine? Maybe the highly rational crush guy can explain this to the rest of us.


Factcheck.org?  Speaking of drivel.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> J
> 
> Just like this site.. your point.. doesn’t negate the truth of hospitals being overwhelmed


Overwhelmed Ho$pital$.  $ounds terrifying. Lol!


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Factcheck.org?  Speaking of drivel.


Horse paste advocate eh? So why are anti-vaxxers ok taking horse paste, but not a vaccine?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> It's not just "this guy".  DH has a history of posting nonsense here.  This article, in fact, would be better received here if DH had created a new sockpuppet (or, if he has one already, used that) since it would not have to overcome the baggage of DH's posting history.


No doubt he's considered your posting history.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Horse paste advocate eh? So why are anti-vaxxers ok taking horse paste, but not a vaccine?


Eh, gets you people on the hook.  It's fun.  Pro-immune system folks just laugh and watch.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> Who is "this guy" you are relying on for your "expert" information? Where did you get this nonsense? You just blew up this thread quoting what appears to be a manifesto from an unidentified person who relies on a pathologist who has been debunked and is a crazy horse paste advocate. There is nothing legitimate in the manifesto or horse paste guy's theories that support the notion that any potential long term risks of getting vaccinated outweigh the potential long term risks of not getting vaccinated.


I note you conveniently ignore the points. 

1) We do not know if there are any long terms issues with the vaccines. This statement is 100% correct. We started vaxxing people less than a year ago. 
2) The next point was if we do not know long term affects of the vaccines, maybe we should not rush to mandate them. That is an entirely rational point
3) The other point made was that some people are in a high risk group. They should get vaxxed because of their risk factors. That is an entirely rational point. 

Those are the 3 main points the person was talking about. 

Which ones do you find offensive? Anti vax? Or anti science? And why?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Twitter is a great source for information.  Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story.  First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?


Most hospitals are happy to explain that 90-100 percent of their covid ICU patients are not vaccinated.  The doctors are tired of it, too.

If you look at the ICU stats, it’s pretty clear that the crush of unvaccinated covid patients is creating health care shortages for other patients.

You can deny it, but that doesn‘t make it any less true.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Tyrant Cowards
> 
> But one distinction between children and adults has, until now, held tight: *adults, collectively, are supposed to protect children, and not the other way around. Sadly, coronavirus seems to have put paid even to this most basic moral certainty. *It has become acceptable for adults to demand that children act to protect them. This shameful state of affairs turns traditional moral values on their head.
> 
> The latest example of this role reversal can be seen in the pressure to vaccinate healthy children against Covid despite almost complete agreement that the vaccine is of little medical benefit to them. As vaccinated children will still be able to transmit the virus, *the sole purpose of the proposed roll-out seems to be to make teenagers provide psychological reassurance to fretful adults.*


Great.  We agree the responsibility lies with the adults.  You are an adult.  Have you done your part and gotten vaccinated yet?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Great.  We agree the responsibility lies with the adults.  You are an adult.  Have you done your part and gotten vaccinated yet?


Hasn't Bruddah had it already? 

One of the great flaws here that has undermined a lot of confidence in the process is the authorities haven't addressed natural immunity at all, and have done very little to study the impact on the epidemic.   How long does natural immunity last?  How robust is it?  Does having a prior infection necessitate two vaccinations or will a booster of 1 effectively do?  There's nothing scientific in treating those that have natural immunity the same as those that have no infection....it's just guessing (and not even guessing in line with what we know about other infections).

But yes, absolutely, especially if you aren't 100% certain you've had it, get vaccinated.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Horse paste advocate eh? So why are anti-vaxxers ok taking horse paste, but not a vaccine?


Access?


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> What point do you find off the mark?
> 
> His main point is we don't know what the long term affects of the vaccines are and as such they should not be mandated on people with little to no risk.
> 
> That is an entirely reasonable approach.
> 
> For those in the very high risk category he advocates them using the vaccine since the benefits outweigh long term risks.
> 
> Another entirely reasonable approach.
> 
> What part do you find objectionable?


So who is this mystery doctor?  Where did you get this "expert" medical opinion?  It is seeming more and more obvious that you were duped by someone on the Internet because he claimed to be a veteran and told you something you want to hear.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> J
> 
> Just like this site.. your point.. doesn’t negate the truth of hospitals being overwhelmed


Nor does it validate yours….


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> So who is this mystery doctor?  Where did you get this "expert" medical opinion?  It is seeming more and more obvious that you were duped by someone on the Internet because he claimed to be a veteran and told you something you want to hear.


Why don't you address the points?

I suspect it is because the points he makes are rational. 

Do you disagree with the fact that we do not know if there are any long term negative affects of the vaccines? 

And if we do not know if there are any long term affects, should we be mandating vaccines to individuals who have little to no risk of the disease itself? That is a legit/rational question. 

The data shows that the vast majority of the people have very little risk to covid. 

And by the way the author also thinks that high risk people SHOULD take the vaccine. 

What points specifically do you disagree with? And why?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Great.  We agree the responsibility lies with the adults.  You are an adult.  Have you done your part and gotten vaccinated yet?


Honest question, what does my vaccination status have to do with your health?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Great.  We agree the responsibility lies with the adults.  You are an adult.  Have you done your part and gotten vaccinated yet?


Have you done your part and gotten infected yet?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Most hospitals are happy to explain that 90-100 percent of their covid ICU patients are not vaccinated.  The doctors are tired of it, too.
> 
> If you look at the ICU stats, it’s pretty clear that the crush of unvaccinated covid patients is creating health care shortages for other patients.
> 
> You can deny it, but that doesn‘t make it any less true.


Hopefully they are happy enough to explain that there has been a 1 percent decrease in COVID deaths, yoy while cases have increased by 100K yoy too.  No doubt vaccines had a lot of immune systems to hitch hike on this year so they could prop up their case for vaccine efficacy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Even cali cases nearly tripled yoy while the death count dropped from 113 to 100 currently.  Big Delta bark for an IFR of .007


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Honest question, what does my vaccination status have to do with your health?


I can’t use an ICU bed to recover from surgery if you are using it to treat your covid.  

With just two people, not a big deal.  I schedule my surgery and use another bed.  Problem solved.

With 330 million people, it is a big deal.   100 million vaccine refusers can completely clog regional health care systems.  When that happens, I can’t schedule my surgery, and my health is impacted.


----------



## espola

Fauci schools DeSantis --









						DeSantis Gets Vital History Lesson From Fauci Over 'Completely Incorrect' Vaccine Claim
					

The nation's top infectious disease expert broke down why the Florida GOP governor's comments on COVID-19 shots were "not true at all."




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> I can’t use an ICU bed to recover from surgery if you are using it to treat your covid.
> 
> With just two people, not a big deal.  I schedule my surgery and use another bed.  Problem solved.
> 
> With 330 million people, it is a big deal.   100 million vaccine refusers can completely clog regional health care systems.  When that happens, I can’t schedule my surgery, and my health is impacted.


A bit of a stretch, especially when hospitals have specifics “wards” set up for Covid ICU’s. 

Of your 100 million “vaccine registers” how many have had C19?  How many of those who aren’t vax’d but can confirm having had C19 are ending up in ICU’s?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Pandemic Preparedness: The Need for a Public Health 
– Not a Law Enforcement/National Security – Approach

Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement. This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.” As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick. People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> A bit of a stretch, especially when hospitals have specifics “wards” set up for Covid ICU’s.
> 
> Of your 100 million “vaccine registers” how many have had C19?  How many of those who aren’t vax’d but can confirm having had C19 are ending up in ICU’s?


Hospitals created those covid wards by taking resources away from other departments.  

Covid patients didn't create a 50% increase in available nursing staff.  They just created an increase in demand.  The supply came by reallocating the people who are already trained.

When hospital administrators talk about delays in elective surgeries, do you think they are just making shit up?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Fauci schools DeSantis --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DeSantis Gets Vital History Lesson From Fauci Over 'Completely Incorrect' Vaccine Claim
> 
> 
> The nation's top infectious disease expert broke down why the Florida GOP governor's comments on COVID-19 shots were "not true at all."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com


Should Fauci even be listened to?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I can’t use an ICU bed to recover from surgery if you are using it to treat your covid.
> 
> With just two people, not a big deal.  I schedule my surgery and use another bed.  Problem solved.
> 
> With 330 million people, it is a big deal.   100 million vaccine refusers can completely clog regional health care systems.  When that happens, I can’t schedule my surgery, and my health is impacted.


Welcome to the party Alice.  Aren't you a bit late?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Hospitals created those covid wards by taking resources away from other departments.
> 
> Covid patients didn't create a 50% increase in available nursing staff.  They just created an increase in demand.  The supply came by reallocating the people who are already trained.
> 
> When hospital administrators talk about delays in elective surgeries, do you think they are just making shit up?


The only people making shit up is you case hyping cowards.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Should Fauci even be listened to?


Should DeSantis even be listened to?


----------



## Soccermaverick

Thank god for Covid- Dave Chapelle


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Most hospitals are happy to explain that 90-100 percent of their covid ICU patients are not vaccinated.  The doctors are tired of it, too.
> 
> If you look at the ICU stats, it’s pretty clear that the crush of unvaccinated covid patients is creating health care shortages for other patients.
> 
> You can deny it, but that doesn‘t make it any less true.


I suppose it is more PC than to point out most ICU patients also fall into one or more of these categories 1) obese  2) unhealthy eating habits. 3) insufficient exercise 4) drink too much alcohol or have drug dependency  5) practice risky sexual behavior. Sure, COVID is something new, but shouldn't we be pointing out all "controllable" causes of hospitalization if we are attempting to eliminate hospital bed shortages? Maybe we should produce and tweet statistics for all the obese people at the hospital and let them know their lifestyles aren't supported by science - many, many years of science - and they are taking hospital beds from others. In order for obese people to work, let's enforce a low-calorie, vegetarian diet (CDC approved, of course) until they reach a level where they are not obese. They can check in every 6 months to see if they need a "booster" diet to stay within range. I bet that would bring down hospital bed demand.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Should DeSantis even be listened to?


Yes


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Should DeSantis even be listened to?


I'll keep it simple for you..No, you should not be listening to desantis for medical advice.  The same goes for Fauci.  Talk to your Dr.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> Thank god for Covid- Dave Chapelle


Clayton Bigsby!


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'll keep it simple for you..No, you should not be listening to desantis for medical advice.  The same goes for Fauci.  Talk to your Dr.


You don't think Fauci gives good medical advice?


----------



## Soccermaverick

Bruddah IZ said:


> Clayton Bigsby!


Come get these ****** lessons!-


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Hospitals created those covid wards by taking resources away from other departments.
> 
> Covid patients didn't create a 50% increase in available nursing staff.  They just created an increase in demand.  The supply came by reallocating the people who are already trained.
> 
> When hospital administrators talk about delays in elective surgeries, do you think they are just making shit up?


So your not going to even acknowledge my question, just ignore and double down.


----------



## what-happened

what-happened said:


> I'll keep it simple for you..No, you should not be listening to desantis for medical advice.  The same goes for Fauci.





espola said:


> You don't think Fauci gives good medical advice?


not really


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> not really


Thank you for clarifying your position.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> I note you conveniently ignore the points.
> 
> 1) We do not know if there are any long terms issues with the vaccines. This statement is 100% correct. We started vaxxing people less than a year ago.
> 2) The next point was if we do not know long term affects of the vaccines, maybe we should not rush to mandate them. That is an entirely rational point
> 3) The other point made was that some people are in a high risk group. They should get vaxxed because of their risk factors. That is an entirely rational point.
> 
> Those are the 3 main points the person was talking about.
> 
> Which ones do you find offensive? Anti vax? Or anti science? And why?


(1) Yes, we know with a high degree of certainty that there aren't long term issues. Vaccines have been rigorously vetted and one study after the next verifies it if you care to look. They have concluded they are safe except in incredibly rare and almost always mild circumstances that do not even remotely outweigh the risks, just like every other vaccine.  And now that vaccines are FDA approved, 166 health systems have already reached the same conclusion and are mandating them, including such sharlatans as the Mayo Clinic, Duke Health, UPenn, USC Keck, UCLA, U Kentucky, UNC, U Alabama, U Chicago, U Louisville, U Maryland, U Utah, U Washington, and Yale, plus healthcare giants like Trinity, Sutter and Kaiser. And also crazy that children's hospitals of CO, CT and TX, plus numerous other local children's hospitals in Omaha, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Dayton, Fresno, and St. Jude's have deemed vaccines sufficiently safe and important enough to protect even the little kiddies whom you claim are impervious to Covid-19 and cannot transmit it to others. Weren't you the one saying we should listen to those on the front line? On the other hand, you believe an anonymous fake post presumably from a conspiracy theory website relying on Dr. Horse Paste.

(2) This is irrational. The government is not making you get vaccinated.  A few state governments are requiring that certain of their employees and some healthcare providers get vaccinated, but that's it and you aren't one of them. And since when did an American "patriot" and "lover of freedom" like yourself start trying to dictate decisions that businesses can make about their employees? If you don't want to get vaccinated, go work somewhere that doesn't require a vaccination.  Why can't an employer exercise their freedom to kick your butt out of their business for being dangerous and expensive to their staff? Why shouldn't an employer be able to decide they don't want to pay increased healthcare and workers' compensation costs and restructure their operations to accommodate a handful of idiots? I'd think you of all people would support a company's right to cut unnecessary costs. Businesses don't need more information to know how much idiot anti-vaxxers are costing them in increased healthcare and workers' comp costs, in protective equipment and other precautions that would otherwise be unnecessary, in missed work time and other increased costs. In healthcare contexts especially, they know how much idiot anti-vaxxers have clogged up their ERs and ICUs and are killing patients who need medical care for legitimate reasons, and not because they're dumbfuck anti-vaxxers. What businesses don't know, however, is which of their dumbfuck anti-vaxxer employees are "high risk" and will end up costing them a fortune, so they may as well just get rid of them all. Even better if it's a public employer, since it saves us taxpayer dollars, right? Plus, anti-vaxxers are troublemakers and generally shitty employees anyway, so good riddance. Right crush?

(3) Not exactly.  Many people in high risk groups cannot get vaccinated.  Many people are in high risk groups and don't know it. Some people in good health will still die of Covid.  Many people will suffer or die because our healthcare system is clogged with dumbfuck anti-vaxxers.

How on earth do you claim to be on the side of science when you're posting an apparently fake anonymous fake manifesto by a fake doctor that relies on horse paste as a better solution to Covid than vaccines, especially when 166 health care systems and virtually every single expert in the field say you're full of shit?

I answered your questions.  So who is the mystery doctor/author/war veteran/graduate of a big 10 school/former resident of a prestigious place/horse paste advocate? Who is this guy who says the CDC, the Mayo Clinic, Yale and 164 other healthcare systems are wrong?


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, we know with a high degree of certainty that there aren't long term issues


This right there tells you that no you don't know what you are talking about. If a vaxx has only been around for 10 months or so, we cannot possibly know if there are long term issues with it.

Right now they are looking at short term issues. And fortunately enough in the short term there doesn't appear to be much concern. However long term issues by definition take a few years or longer. Do we know the affects of giving vaccines to pregnant mothers and if it is safe for the kids? No. And countless other issues have not yet been studied long term.



GoldenGate said:


> Weren't you the one saying we should listen to those on the front line? On the other hand, you believe an anonymous fake post presumably from a conspiracy theory website relying on Dr. Horse Paste.


If you ask a doctor or scientist if we know the long term affects of the vaccine, nobody can tell you honestly if there will or will not be issues. Why? It takes years to determine that. Which is why vaccines develop over the course of years so they can test. Today in the short term there appears to be little issue with the vax which is a great thing. We don't know what the future holds however when we look back over years of data.

You seem to miss that obvious point. You cannot know the long term affects (if any) until we have years of data.

And for Dr Horse Paste. The guy writing wasn't endorsing the doctor in Idaho. He stated that in the past when issues arose or people started seeing something, the scientific course of action would be to investigate the claims rather than dismissing them outright. He wasn't defending the doc, etc. Just pointing out that when politics wasn't involved inquiry and research would be the preferred solution. In terms of the "horse paste" that medicine is also prescribed to humans all the time. I don't advocate going out and getting the vet version of the med in the least by the way. The press hyped the story and most failed to note the medicine is also regularly given to humans.



GoldenGate said:


> This is irrational. The government is not making you get vaccinated.


It isn't irrational in the least. We have many examples of gov entities mandating or talking about mandating vaccines. We have university systems doing it. We have parts of the federal government doing it. Private companies either doing it or considering it. Etc etc.



GoldenGate said:


> A few state governments are requiring that certain of their employees and some healthcare providers get vaccinated, but that's it and you aren't one of them.


It isn't a few.

"So far, there are 24 states that require vaccination for employees of various categories."

And as you look at news articles you see more and more talk about mandates. This isn't idle talk.




GoldenGate said:


> Not exactly. Many people in high risk groups cannot get vaccinated. Many people are in high risk groups and don't know it. Some people in good health will still die of Covid. Many people will suffer or die because our healthcare system is clogged with dumbfuck anti-vaxxers.


The people in the high risk categories have been vaccinated here and in other 1st world countries at very high rates. Which is why deaths have fallen dramatically.

---

One see's a lot of concern about getting kids vaccinated...hoping a vax is approved for them. And schools talking about mandating it once approved. Many colleges are doing this.

These age groups have no real risk of covid. And yet people want them vaxxed. We know they are not at risk. We don't know if there are any long term complications from the vax.

And no it was no manifesto. You simply failed failed to read an understand what he meant. Based on your post above you cannot distinguish between the simple terms short term (which right now looks good in terms of safety) vs long term which will take years to study. That was one of the key points made. We simply do not yet know if there will be anything concerning and so to mandate people take it is something that deserves reasoned discussion.

You seem to struggle with that concept and call that a manifesto by some kook.



GoldenGate said:


> Why can't an employer exercise their freedom to kick your butt out of their business for being dangerous and expensive to their staff? Why shouldn't an employer be able to decide they don't want to pay increased healthcare and workers' compensation costs and restructure their operations to accommodate a handful of idiots? I'd think you of all people would support a company's right to cut unnecessary costs.


Will this also apply to gays and AIDS? Do they get to determine that this group may incur higher costs? Or do we not allow biz to do that?

Does this apply to obese workers? They cost more in terms of insurance/costs? Or do we not allow that?

There are all kinds of things employers could do to "limit cost" by firing employees for as you say risky behavior. And yet we don't allow that do we. And if we looked at some of the examples above and many others, I lay money you would not advocate that. If you were consistent in your approach however you would have to. Right? I mean now you are making an argument that biz should be able to cut all kinds of employees if they cost more money....

Hey now you are making an argument against pre-existing condition and health care insurance through work as well based on what you wrote above. Under the ACA, employers cannot impose a waiting period for coverage of a _pre_-_existing condition_. So I guess you are advocating we should get rid of that provision? It would save a lot of insurance costs for business as well.

See where I am going here?

Anyway lets keep it simple. Start with learning the difference between short term and long term. Then try this one. Find an article that talks about the known LONG TERM side affects (if any) of these vaccines. That search will be in vain.

I have no issue with the vaccines personally. They have helped tremendously for the actual at risk population. I also think if a person wants to get vaxxed, by all means do it. I don't like where many are increasingly going...vax passports, mandates, etc.

That is where I have an issue.

If in a number of years we have long term data and know if there are bad side affects and which types of people are at risk, then that would be the point one could say let us make it mandatory. At that point for instance we could exclude people with certain health factors where the vaccine isn't a good idea. That however will take years to determine how it affects various groups. You missed that very obvious point while typing horse as fast as you could.


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> (1) Yes, we know with a high degree of certainty that there aren't long term issues. Vaccines have been rigorously vetted and one study after the next verifies it if you care to look. They have concluded they are safe except in incredibly rare and almost always mild circumstances that do not even remotely outweigh the risks, just like every other vaccine.  And now that vaccines are FDA approved, 166 health systems have already reached the same conclusion and are mandating them, including such sharlatans as the Mayo Clinic, Duke Health, UPenn, USC Keck, UCLA, U Kentucky, UNC, U Alabama, U Chicago, U Louisville, U Maryland, U Utah, U Washington, and Yale, plus healthcare giants like Trinity, Sutter and Kaiser. And also crazy that children's hospitals of CO, CT and TX, plus numerous other local children's hospitals in Omaha, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Dayton, Fresno, and St. Jude's have deemed vaccines sufficiently safe and important enough to protect even the little kiddies whom you claim are impervious to Covid-19 and cannot transmit it to others. Weren't you the one saying we should listen to those on the front line? On the other hand, you believe an anonymous fake post presumably from a conspiracy theory website relying on Dr. Horse Paste.
> 
> (2) This is irrational. The government is not making you get vaccinated.  A few state governments are requiring that certain of their employees and some healthcare providers get vaccinated, but that's it and you aren't one of them. And since when did an American "patriot" and "lover of freedom" like yourself start trying to dictate decisions that businesses can make about their employees? If you don't want to get vaccinated, go work somewhere that doesn't require a vaccination.  Why can't an employer exercise their freedom to kick your butt out of their business for being dangerous and expensive to their staff? Why shouldn't an employer be able to decide they don't want to pay increased healthcare and workers' compensation costs and restructure their operations to accommodate a handful of idiots? I'd think you of all people would support a company's right to cut unnecessary costs. Businesses don't need more information to know how much idiot anti-vaxxers are costing them in increased healthcare and workers' comp costs, in protective equipment and other precautions that would otherwise be unnecessary, in missed work time and other increased costs. In healthcare contexts especially, they know how much idiot anti-vaxxers have clogged up their ERs and ICUs and are killing patients who need medical care for legitimate reasons, and not because they're dumbfuck anti-vaxxers. What businesses don't know, however, is which of their dumbfuck anti-vaxxer employees are "high risk" and will end up costing them a fortune, so they may as well just get rid of them all. Even better if it's a public employer, since it saves us taxpayer dollars, right? Plus, anti-vaxxers are troublemakers and generally shitty employees anyway, so good riddance. Right crush?
> 
> (3) Not exactly.  Many people in high risk groups cannot get vaccinated.  Many people are in high risk groups and don't know it. Some people in good health will still die of Covid.  Many people will suffer or die because our healthcare system is clogged with dumbfuck anti-vaxxers.
> 
> How on earth do you claim to be on the side of science when you're posting an apparently fake anonymous fake manifesto by a fake doctor that relies on horse paste as a better solution to Covid than vaccines, especially when 166 health care systems and virtually every single expert in the field say you're full of shit?
> 
> I answered your questions.  So who is the mystery doctor/author/war veteran/graduate of a big 10 school/former resident of a prestigious place/horse paste advocate? Who is this guy who says the CDC, the Mayo Clinic, Yale and 164 other healthcare systems are wrong?



1. Re the employers, there is a bit of question mark legally regarding those that can prove they have natural immunity from prior illness.  There have been a few lawsuits from these people claiming they should be accorded medical exemption.  None of them have been litigated fully as far as I'm aware but one of them did settle.  The case is actually stronger against a public employer than a private one.  The downside though, for people trying to force this exemption is they'll be put under the same standards as other people claiming medical exemption (such as more rigorous mask/distancing/testing requirements).

2. Anyone want to give odds on the likelihood of golden gate actually being EOTL?  A lot of the same dialogue such as "dumbfuck" and "shitty".  A lot of the same legal knowledge.

3.  I'm more convinced than ever that team panic and team reality are both losing it by the sudden influx of the newcomers on team panic's end and the new urgency I'm seeing on team reality's end.  Joe Biden is expected to give a speech later this week for how the federal govt is going to deal with COVID.  It's supposedly influenced heavily by Fauci and the Gottlieb booster crowd (the same ones that purportedly caused the resignations at the FDA for pressuring the FDA on boosters).  With the red states having basically adopted the English approach, I suspect this is going to crack both sides of the debate...we've been basically yelling at each other for the last 2 months since the 4th of July reopening proved a bust....I suspect we just both go our separate ways of dealing with this in different jurisdictions at this point (as California and Florida have shown) since both sides seemed to have just exhausted each other...most people are sheep and will go along with whatever the powers that be mandate for their applicable jurisdictions but they'll be a substantial group of naysayers on both ends.  The only way this changes is if Newsom gets recalled but I don't think it's going to happen (as I said before....I'd bet $20...maybe now even $50...I wouldn't bet anymore) or if the virus somehow burns out after the current wave (which given its propensity to mutate I also don't think will happen).


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> So your not going to even acknowledge my question, just ignore and double down.


Nope.  I declined your offer to change the topic.  We were still discussing your first question.

The topic was, as you asked:

How does one person's vaccination status impact another person's health?

The answer is that, when unvaccinated covid patients clog the ICU, hospitals delay care for everyone.

Now, are we clear that one person's vaccination status can, and does, impact other people?

Or do you claim that hospitals are not delaying other procedures in order to free up resources for unvaccinated covid patients?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nope.  I declined your offer to change the topic.  We were still discussing your first question.
> 
> The topic was, as you asked:
> 
> How does one person's vaccination status impact another person's health?
> 
> The answer is that, when unvaccinated covid patients clog the ICU, hospitals delay care for everyone.
> 
> Now, are we clear that one person's vaccination status can, and does, impact other people?
> 
> Or do you claim that hospitals are not delaying other procedures in order to free up resources for unvaccinated covid patients?


I note your argument (which I think is valid) about hospital capacity only gets you so far....it doesn't help very much: 1) with the under 30 crowd which are far less prone to hospitalization, 2) for those who can prove they have prior natural immunity, or 3) in those areas with substantial hospital capacity that are not in danger of being overwhelmed particularly as immunity from vaccination/natural immunity rises.

It's a good argument, but it's not a slam dunk and doesn't get you all the way to we should mandate the vaccine for everyone.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way there are a number of studies looking at invermectin right now as it relates to covid.

You can look up some of them here. What will they find? Who knows. 









						Search of: ivermectin | covid - List Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
					






					clinicaltrials.gov


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> This right there tells you that no you don't know what you are talking about. If a vaxx has only been around for 10 months or so, we cannot possibly know if there are long term issues with it.
> 
> Right now they are looking at short term issues. And fortunately enough in the short term there doesn't appear to be much concern. However long term issues by definition take a few years or longer. Do we know the affects of giving vaccines to pregnant mothers and if it is safe for the kids? No. And countless other issues have not yet been studied long term.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask a doctor or scientist if we know the long term affects of the vaccine, nobody can tell you honestly if there will or will not be issues. Why? It takes years to determine that. Which is why vaccines develop over the course of years so they can test. Today in the short term there appears to be little issue with the vax which is a great thing. We don't know what the future holds however when we look back over years of data.
> 
> You seem to miss that obvious point. You cannot know the long term affects (if any) until we have years of data.
> 
> And for Dr Horse Paste. The guy writing wasn't endorsing the doctor in Idaho. He stated that in the past when issues arose or people started seeing something, the scientific course of action would be to investigate the claims rather than dismissing them outright. He wasn't defending the doc, etc. Just pointing out that when politics wasn't involved inquiry and research would be the preferred solution. In terms of the "horse paste" that medicine is also prescribed to humans all the time. I don't advocate going out and getting the vet version of the med in the least by the way. The press hyped the story and most failed to note the medicine is also regularly given to humans.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't irrational in the least. We have many examples of gov entities mandating or talking about mandating vaccines. We have university systems doing it. We have parts of the federal government doing it. Private companies either doing it or considering it. Etc etc.
> 
> 
> It isn't a few.
> 
> "So far, there are 24 states that require vaccination for employees of various categories."
> 
> And as you look at news articles you see more and more talk about mandates. This isn't idle talk.
> 
> 
> 
> The people in the high risk categories have been vaccinated here and in other 1st world countries at very high rates. Which is why deaths have fallen dramatically.
> 
> ---
> 
> One see's a lot of concern about getting kids vaccinated...hoping a vax is approved for them. And schools talking about mandating it once approved. Many colleges are doing this.
> 
> These age groups have no real risk of covid. And yet people want them vaxxed. We know they are not at risk. We don't know if there are any long term complications from the vax.
> 
> And no it was no manifesto. You simply failed failed to read an understand what he meant. Based on your post above you cannot distinguish between the simple terms short term (which right now looks good in terms of safety) vs long term which will take years to study. That was one of the key points made. We simply do not yet know if there will be anything concerning and so to mandate people take it is something that deserves reasoned discussion.
> 
> You seem to struggle with that concept and call that a manifesto by some kook.
> 
> 
> 
> Will this also apply to gays and AIDS? Do they get to determine that this group may incur higher costs? Or do we not allow biz to do that?
> 
> Does this apply to obese workers? They cost more in terms of insurance/costs? Or do we not allow that?
> 
> There are all kinds of things employers could do to "limit cost" by firing employees for as you say risky behavior. And yet we don't allow that do we. And if we looked at some of the examples above and many others, I lay money you would not advocate that. If you were consistent in your approach however you would have to. Right? I mean now you are making an argument that biz should be able to cut all kinds of employees if they cost more money....
> 
> Hey now you are making an argument against pre-existing condition and health care insurance through work as well based on what you wrote above. Under the ACA, employers cannot impose a waiting period for coverage of a _pre_-_existing condition_. So I guess you are advocating we should get rid of that provision? It would save a lot of insurance costs for business as well.
> 
> See where I am going here?
> 
> Anyway lets keep it simple. Start with learning the difference between short term and long term. Then try this one. Find an article that talks about the known LONG TERM side affects (if any) of these vaccines. That search will be in vain.
> 
> I have no issue with the vaccines personally. They have helped tremendously for the actual at risk population. I also think if a person wants to get vaxxed, by all means do it. I don't like where many are increasingly going...vax passports, mandates, etc.
> 
> That is where I have an issue.
> 
> If in a number of years we have long term data and know if there are bad side affects and which types of people are at risk, then that would be the point one could say let us make it mandatory. At that point for instance we could exclude people with certain health factors where the vaccine isn't a good idea. That however will take years to determine how it affects various groups. You missed that very obvious point while typing horse as fast as you could.


In the time it took you to write that, you could have had a vaccination and waited out the precautionary period.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Nope.  I declined your offer to change the topic.  We were still discussing your first question.
> 
> The topic was, as you asked:
> 
> How does one person's vaccination status impact another person's health?
> 
> The answer is that, when unvaccinated covid patients clog the ICU, hospitals delay care for everyone.
> 
> Now, are we clear that one person's vaccination status can, and does, impact other people?
> 
> Or do you claim that hospitals are not delaying other procedures in order to free up resources for unvaccinated covid patients?


I’m clear that you have a theory and that’s about it.

I have a theory too, and that’s about it.

I have a feeling we are both right to an extent……


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> By the way there are a number of studies looking at invermectin right now as it relates to covid.
> 
> You can look up some of them here. What will they find? Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search of: ivermectin | covid - List Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov


This one's on your list.  It performs at least as well as placebo in multiple factors.









						Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
					

Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results.




					clinicaltrials.gov


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> This one's on your list.  It performs at least as well as placebo in multiple factors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov


I am not advocating the drug. I just pointed out that there are a number of studies that are looking to see if it might work or not.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> I’m clear that you have a theory and that’s about it.


No theory about it.  It's a simple question of fact.

Either hospitals are delaying other procedures in response to covid, or they are not.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I am not advocating the drug. I just pointed out that there are a number of studies that are looking to see if it might work or not.


Let me make this easy for you -- it doesn't work.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nope.  I declined your offer to change the topic.  We were still discussing your first question.
> 
> The topic was, as you asked:
> 
> How does one person's vaccination status impact another person's health?
> 
> The answer is that, when unvaccinated covid patients clog the ICU, hospitals delay care for everyone.
> 
> Now, are we clear that one person's vaccination status can, and does, impact other people?
> 
> Or do you claim that hospitals are not delaying other procedures in order to free up resources for unvaccinated covid patients?


Did you have the same concern when medical treatment was delayed and elective, but serious, procedures were canceled in the first part of the pandemic due to government policy and covid panic?  Correct me if Im wrong but my recollection is you downplayed other health concerns caused by Covid restrictions.  We now have 10 million that are behind on cancer screenings.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I am not advocating the drug. I just pointed out that there are a number of studies that are looking to see if it might work or not.


 Just for you --


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Did you have the same concern when medical treatment was delayed and elective, but serious, procedures were canceled in the first part of the pandemic due to government policy and covid panic?  Correct me if Im wrong but my recollection is you downplayed other health concerns caused by Covid restrictions.  We now have 10 million that are behind on cancer screenings.


Fair criticism.

No, I did not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> So your not going to even acknowledge my question, just ignore and double down.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435279625299628032


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> No theory about it.  It's a simple question of fact.
> 
> Either hospitals are delaying other procedures in response to covid, or they are not.


I believe our difference of opinion is not “if”/“but to what extent”.  Is it the exception or the rule?  I would argue it’s the exception.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> I believe our difference of opinion is not “if”/“but to what extent”.  Is it the exception or the rule?  I would argue it’s the exception.


The ramp up in travel nurse salaries makes me think it is pretty common.

Look up travel nurse salaries.  Compare a 2019 article against a 2021 job posting.  The price has tripled.  That implies a serious shortage and inelastic supply.

Put another way, Florida can only staff their covid wards by outbidding Texas.  And vice versa.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> No theory about it.  It's a simple question of fact.
> 
> Either hospitals are delaying other procedures in response to covid, or they are not.


Ultimately and specifically, what are you advocating for?


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Just for you --


Ah, Lincoln Project - birds of a feather?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Let me make this easy for you -- it doesn't work.


How do you know?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Just for you --


Rising from the depths of the sewer.  Your type of people?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Rising from the depths of the sewer.  Your type of people?


The Lincoln Project is made up of Republicans who criticize t, so yes.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The Lincoln Project is made up of Republicans who criticize t, so yes.


They are 100% grifters led by a low life who likes little boys.  And they act like they didn't know.  Still your kind of people?


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Ultimately and specifically, what are you advocating for?


In this case, just trying to set the groundwork for a productive discussion.

You need a common set of facts before you can have a reasonable conversation.   One of those facts is that the boom in covid cases is creating a health care shortage in general.

And, as watfly noted, a boom in perceived risk can also create a health care shortage.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> This one's on your list.  It performs at least as well as placebo in multiple factors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov





espola said:


> *Let me make this easy for you -- it doesn't work.*





espola said:


> *This one's on your list.  It performs at least as well as placebo in multiple factors.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov


Lol! I see you made up your mind.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> They are 100% grifters led by a low life who likes little boys.  And they act like they didn't know.  Still your kind of people?


Looks like they hit you pretty hard.

Please continue.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Looks like they hit you pretty hard.
> 
> Please continue.


Ha, that's pretty good, must admit.  You absolutely have tds.  I can prescribe ivermectin for you, seems like you are presenting with trump blindess. I assure you it's perfectly safe and you won't have to pick it up at Tractor Supply.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ha, that's pretty good, must admit.  You absolutely have tds.  I can prescribe ivermectin for you, seems like you are presenting with trump blindess. I assure you it's perfectly safe and you won't have to pick it up at Tractor Supply.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Look up travel nurse salaries.  Compare a 2019 article against a 2021 job posting.  The price has tripled.  That implies a serious shortage and inelastic supply.


Since price is a function of both supply and demand it doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s one curve or another.  There are several factors at play including: enhanced demand (you get this every severe flu season too), parenting issues (due to disruptions in school and childcare), perceived risk—->risk premium, the discomfort of the job (masks all day, unpleasant work environment), extended unemployment benefits, and the fact shortages exist in other parts of the market because doctors offices are having trouble holding onto their nurses too (most nurses remember are women which means a large chunk have primary childcare responsibility or are old enough to be Leary of working emergency wards)


----------



## Keepermom2

Desert Hound said:


> By the way there are a number of studies looking at invermectin right now as it relates to covid.
> 
> You can look up some of them here. What will they find? Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search of: ivermectin | covid - List Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov


----------



## Grace T.

Keepermom2 said:


>


Even the pro ivermectin studies have shown pre delta it doesn’t work as a prophylaxis.  The ivermectin as miracle drug people are as Cookey as the masks are as good as vaccine people. You guys are just throwing the same poop at each other.


----------



## espola

Keepermom2 said:


>


"I don't have any data..."

The comments below the video are funnier than the video.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> They are 100% grifters led by a low life who likes little boys.  And they act like they didn't know.  Still your kind of people?


Lincoln Project is made up of pedo's and @espola hangs out in a kids soccer forum with no kids in soccer, "so yes."


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Even the pro ivermectin studies have shown pre delta it doesn’t work as a prophylaxis.  The ivermectin as miracle drug people are as Cookey as the masks are as good as vaccine people. You guys are just throwing the same poop at each other.


Who is "you guys"?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Who is "you guys"?


Reading comp really isn’t your strong suit Magoo. It’s in the second sentence.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Since price is a function of both supply and demand it doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s one curve or another.  There are several factors at play including: enhanced demand (you get this every severe flu season too), parenting issues (due to disruptions in school and childcare), perceived risk—->risk premium, the discomfort of the job (masks all day, unpleasant work environment), extended unemployment benefits, and the fact shortages exist in other parts of the market because doctors offices are having trouble holding onto their nurses too (most nurses remember are women which means a large chunk have primary childcare responsibility or are old enough to be Leary of working emergency wards)


Ps it’s not just nurses salaries that are moving up. Lawyer salaries are too, among several others.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Reading comp really isn’t your strong suit Magoo. It’s in the second sentence.


I can see how the ivermectin crowd is here.  Who is in the "masks are as good as vaccine" group?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Since price is a function of both supply and demand it doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s one curve or another.  There are several factors at play including: enhanced demand (you get this every severe flu season too), parenting issues (due to disruptions in school and childcare), perceived risk—->risk premium, the discomfort of the job (masks all day, unpleasant work environment), extended unemployment benefits, and the fact shortages exist in other parts of the market because doctors offices are having trouble holding onto their nurses too (most nurses remember are women which means a large chunk have primary childcare responsibility or are old enough to be Leary of working emergency wards)


If the price tripled, neither supply nor demand is elastic.

Draw it out.  You can't get a large price jump unless both lines are steep.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I can see how the ivermectin crowd is here.  Who is in the "masks are as good as vaccine" group?


I didn’t have anyone in particular in mind here. Feel free to sort them how you like them, though I still find it odd some of the pro maskers are still so willing to die on that cloth mask hill when almost all of Europe (and their experts) have left that behind.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I didn’t have anyone in particular in mind here. Feel free to sort them how you like them, though I still find it odd some of the pro maskers are still so willing to die on that cloth mask hill when almost all of Europe (and their experts) have left that behind.


So "you guys" was not anyone you were addressing here in this thread?  Just another of Grace's strawman ensembles?

Did you ever give a thought to those times when you spout "reading comprehension" that maybe it's just writing comprehension?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If the price tripled, neither supply nor demand is elastic.
> 
> Draw it out.  You can't get a large price jump unless both lines are steep.


Fair. A. I was suggesting to that it was most likely both instead of just one or the other. B. Like many other things, covid and the responses to covid (such as the child care crunch, ue benefits, actual and perceived risk, masks, inflation pressures elsewhere in the market, vaccine mandates) have changed the elasticity of the supply curve (with employment generally already being sticky due to barriers to entry).


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I can see how the ivermectin crowd is here.  Who is in the "masks are as good as vaccine" group?


Why can't you be inclusive of ivermectin? such a hater.  vaccination, natural immunity, good masks - why not employ all of the tools in your tool box.  I know it's a scary world outside of the FDA and CDC.  Also, pay no mind to what's happening in Israel, bogus data for sure.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So "you guys" was not anyone you were addressing here in this thread?  Just another of Grace's strawman ensembles?
> 
> Did you ever give a thought to those times when you spout "reading comprehension" that maybe it's just writing comprehension?


Not with you. This isn’t my only forum. Other than you and eotl and clones, most people around here (dad4 and crush included) are positively reasonable. You should see the nutjobs out there (including in the video post). I think it stems from most of us (you being the notable exception) having children of school age which keeps us grounded.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Not with you. This isn’t my only forum. Other than you and eotl and clones, most people around here (dad4 and crush included) are positively reasonable. You should see the nutjobs out there (including in the video post). I think it stems from most of us (you being the notable exception) having children of school age which keeps us grounded.


I'm  reasonable.  Perhaps you just don't like me pointing out how often you are wrong (such as e.g. the "you guys" comment).


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Why can't you be inclusive of ivermectin? such a hater.  vaccination, natural immunity, good masks - why not employ all of the tools in your tool box.  I know it's a scary world outside of the FDA and CDC.  Also, pay no mind to what's happening in Israel, bogus data for sure.


It's unproven for covid and dangerous in large doses.  It has the advantage to the no-vax crowd in that it is available without a prescription and is relatively cheap -- just $10 for a horse-sized dose (you can figure out your own dosage with simple arithmetic, right?)


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> It's unproven for covid and dangerous in large doses.  It has the advantage to the no-vax crowd in that it is available without a prescription and is relatively cheap -- just $10 for a horse-sized dose (you can figure out your own dosage with simple arithmetic, right?)


Yes you can based on the active ingredient label on the packaging and a quick Google search.  If people-whatever their motivation-keep at dosage levels approved for parasitic infections they should be OK.  Do what thou wilt, but Google and do the math first.  In the clinical trial posted earlier, which addressed treatment of COVID-19 symptoms, not CoV-2 infection, it's possible those dosages might work as an anti-inflammatory in conjunction with other anti-inflammatories.  There is a study out there that indicates that ivermectin can block the S protein-Ace2 receptor interaction, suggesting it could block infection.  This effect required very high dosages, which may not be physiologically sustainable given the rapid way ivermectin is metabolized, broken down, and secreted (I looked up some stuff on this.  Have the links but thought why go there).  Anyway, the thing is that it appears some people are going for very high dosages to try and hit that point.  The problem becomes if you gobble down too much too fast the molecular pumps that keep ivermectin from crossing the blood-brain barrier get overwhelmed.  When that happens, ivermectin gets into your central nervous system and acts as a reasonably potent neurotoxin.  Then, some of the neurological symptoms mentioned in the Lincoln Project video turn out to actually happen-dizzyness, convulsions, etc.  I don't know about seeing lizard people in Congress.  Personally, I've always thought of them that way.  Anyway, the good news appears to be that if one just stops taking it, the neuro symptoms appear to resolve pretty quickly.  Long term consequences?  Who knows.  We'll see how many lizard people get elected shortly.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm  reasonable.


That’s the funniest thing you’ve written to date.  You literally made me snort suppressing a laugh.


----------



## Grace T.

A good summary of the ivermectin debate and the dynamics governing what's happening.  









						Lessons From the Ivermectin Debacle
					

When podcast king and comedian Joe Rogan reported that he was ill with Covid-19, a media firestorm commenced. This was no surprise, given the interest the public has in celebrities diagnosed with Covi




					www.realclearscience.com


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> In this case, just trying to set the groundwork for a productive discussion.
> 
> You need a common set of facts before you can have a reasonable conversation.   One of those facts is that the boom in covid cases is creating a health care shortage in general.
> 
> And, as watfly noted, a boom in perceived risk can also create a health care shortage.


And so can Vaccine Mandates…..


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A good summary of the ivermectin debate and the dynamics governing what's happening.
> 
> https://www.realclearsciencommendation?  .com/articles/2021/09/08/lessons_from_the_ivermectin_debacle_793483.html


My recommendation?  If you are going to pursue a course on ivermectin treatment, get the vaccine first.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> And so can Vaccine Mandates…..


How so?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It's unproven for covid and dangerous in large doses.  It has the advantage to the no-vax crowd in that it is available without a prescription and is relatively cheap -- just $10 for a horse-sized dose (you can figure out your own dosage with simple arithmetic, right?)


I'm not talking about animal dosed ivermectin.  There are many dual use medications. There is enough available data for the use of ivermectin that many drs feel comfortable prescribing it.  You correctly argue that there are gaps in Ivermectin studies.  By prescription, it is a perfectly safe and FDA approved medication, but you already know this.  The no-vaxx crowd is going to do what the no-vax crowd is going to do.  They deserve the ridicule if they decide to take horse pills.  The risk from taking Ivermectin early is very low. 

As we are starting to see, reliance on vaccination may not be the only answer.  Politicize all you want but the data coming out of Israel is real.  As well s the unusual side effects on women.  The development of the vaccines was truly remarkable but their is always a "but".


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> My recommendation?  If you are going to pursue a course on ivermectin treatment, get the vaccine first.


Really?  why? when?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'm not talking about animal dosed ivermectin.  There are many dual use medications. There is enough available data for the use of ivermectin that many drs feel comfortable prescribing it.  You correctly argue that there are gaps in Ivermectin studies.  By prescription, it is a perfectly safe and FDA approved medication, but you already know this.  The no-vaxx crowd is going to do what the no-vax crowd is going to do.  They deserve the ridicule if they decide to take horse pills.  The risk from taking Ivermectin early is very low.
> 
> As we are starting to see, reliance on vaccination may not be the only answer.  Politicize all you want but the data coming out of Israel is real.  As well s the unusual side effects on women.  The development of the vaccines was truly remarkable but their is always a "but".


Read the article Grace linked.  Then review your response here.


----------



## crush

The Vaccinator has some words ((crush response as well)) on the homeless/business situation in LA and he say's he's here to help both.  Look what this guy just said,

"There's a reason why people are angry and they're not just disappointed." * ((Why are the people disappointed Governator?))*

(Because) "I drive by homeless people every day when I go to Gold's Gym"  *((Oh you poor thing))*

"and I talk to some of them." *((Well isn;t that special))*

"They're angry" *((I wonder why?))*

"the way they've been pushed around" *((Not fun being pushed around and kicked to the curb))*

"and they've been promised things and no delivery,"* ((Promises are never kept with liars and cheaters))*

But he also sympathizes with business owners, whose boardwalk store fronts he says have been fouled by *human waste. ((not good for business))*

"This is your environment in front of a store that you're paying taxes for *((Poop from humans in front of anyone's store is unacceptable))*

"you're paying a lot of rent for, this is inexcusable."  *((Rent is through the roof.  Plus you have to manage the mask thing and vax passport.  If that's not hard enough, throw in some human shit in front your store as you set to open each morning. You will 100% be OB soon if this doesnt stop)). *

"Where's the protection for our business community that it pays its taxes?" *((ya, where is it man))*

This dude is worth $410,000,000.  His dad was a Brownshirt for Hitler's crew.  If I had all his money, I would build a few killer houses and help people who are homeless find a place to sleep.  What a crock of doo doo to read this shit.  Sorry to all those in LA these days.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Really?  why? when?


Really.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That’s the funniest thing you’ve written to date.  You literally made me snort suppressing a laugh.


Laughter is a common defense mechanism against embarrassment.

And I notice you trimmed my post when you responded. That's a tell, also.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> *Laughter is a common defense mechanism against embarrassment.*


More & more each day you look like the moron you were calling me a few years ago.  Look WHO the Coo Coo is now EOTL.....Checkmate!!!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Laughter is a common defense mechanism against embarrassment.
> 
> And I notice you trimmed my post when you responded. That's a tell, also.


I just laughed again sitting in the car waiting for kiddos bus. My kid asked me “what so funny?  Share I like funny things too.”  Me:”not this one”


----------



## crush

*Jimmy Kimmel says unvaccinated people shouldn't get ICU beds in his return to his late-night show*

"Dr. Fauci said if hospitals get any more overcrowded they're going to have to make some very tough choices about who gets an ICU bed," the host continued. *"That choice doesn’t seem so tough to me. ‘Vaccinated person having a heart attack? Yes, come right in, we’ll take care of you. Unvaccinated guy who gobbled horse goo? Rest in peace, wheezy.'"*

This is why Crush told all of you to eat healthy or take jab instead.  This will never end until you who keep taking boosters say, "enough."  I can;t help anyone of you now.  I have to leave and live in wilderness with my wife until this stops.  Imagine my luck.  Crush is minding his own business and get's hit by a car and is rushed to the ER.  At the same fucking time, Espola comes in with a heart attack from blood clots.  Only one Doc on staff ((others got fired for not taking jab)) and one Nurse, that nut job Karen.  So Doc leaves me to die all alone with trauma but goes and saves the Elitist Espola.  Ya, I see how this game is played.  No more for me and my wife.  We both jumped off the Hamster wheel of liars and cheaters.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Read the article Grace linked.  Then review your response here.


.There is no hope with you. Keep knifefighting in your political foxhole..


----------



## Desert Hound

Keep fear alive!!

We are just going to have to accept that the virus is endemic.









						COVID Variant ‘Mu’ With ‘Potential to Evade Antibodies’ Found in 49 States
					

As the Delta variant continues to surge around the country, a new mutation has been detected in 49 states and 42 countrie...




					humanevents.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I just laughed again sitting in the car waiting for kiddos bus. My kid asked me “what so funny?  Share I like funny things too.”  Me:”not this one”


q.e.d.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> .There is no hope with you. Keep knifefighting in your political foxhole..


OK, don't read it.  Your choice.

We often run across the voluntarily ignorant here.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> (1) Yes, we know with a high degree of certainty that there aren't long term issues. Vaccines have been rigorously vetted and one study after the next verifies it if you care to look. They have concluded they are safe except in incredibly rare and almost always mild circumstances that do not even remotely outweigh the risks, just like every other vaccine.  And now that vaccines are FDA approved, 166 health systems have already reached the same conclusion and are mandating them, including such sharlatans as the Mayo Clinic, Duke Health, UPenn, USC Keck, UCLA, U Kentucky, UNC, U Alabama, U Chicago, U Louisville, U Maryland, U Utah, U Washington, and Yale, plus healthcare giants like Trinity, Sutter and Kaiser. And also crazy that children's hospitals of CO, CT and TX, plus numerous other local children's hospitals in Omaha, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Dayton, Fresno, and St. Jude's have deemed vaccines sufficiently safe and important enough to protect even the little kiddies whom you claim are impervious to Covid-19 and cannot transmit it to others. Weren't you the one saying we should listen to those on the front line? On the other hand, you believe an anonymous fake post presumably from a conspiracy theory website relying on Dr. Horse Paste.
> 
> (2) This is irrational. The government is not making you get vaccinated.  A few state governments are requiring that certain of their employees and some healthcare providers get vaccinated, but that's it and you aren't one of them. And since when did an American "patriot" and "lover of freedom" like yourself start trying to dictate decisions that businesses can make about their employees? If you don't want to get vaccinated, go work somewhere that doesn't require a vaccination.  Why can't an employer exercise their freedom to kick your butt out of their business for being dangerous and expensive to their staff? Why shouldn't an employer be able to decide they don't want to pay increased healthcare and workers' compensation costs and restructure their operations to accommodate a handful of idiots? I'd think you of all people would support a company's right to cut unnecessary costs. Businesses don't need more information to know how much idiot anti-vaxxers are costing them in increased healthcare and workers' comp costs, in protective equipment and other precautions that would otherwise be unnecessary, in missed work time and other increased costs. In healthcare contexts especially, they know how much idiot anti-vaxxers have clogged up their ERs and ICUs and are killing patients who need medical care for legitimate reasons, and not because they're dumbfuck anti-vaxxers. What businesses don't know, however, is which of their dumbfuck anti-vaxxer employees are "high risk" and will end up costing them a fortune, so they may as well just get rid of them all. Even better if it's a public employer, since it saves us taxpayer dollars, right? Plus, anti-vaxxers are troublemakers and generally shitty employees anyway, so good riddance. Right crush?
> 
> (3) Not exactly.  Many people in high risk groups cannot get vaccinated.  Many people are in high risk groups and don't know it. Some people in good health will still die of Covid.  Many people will suffer or die because our healthcare system is clogged with dumbfuck anti-vaxxers.
> 
> How on earth do you claim to be on the side of science when you're posting an apparently fake anonymous fake manifesto by a fake doctor that relies on horse paste as a better solution to Covid than vaccines, especially when 166 health care systems and virtually every single expert in the field say you're full of shit?
> 
> I answered your questions.  So who is the mystery doctor/author/war veteran/graduate of a big 10 school/former resident of a prestigious place/horse paste advocate? Who is this guy who says the CDC, the Mayo Clinic, Yale and 164 other healthcare systems are wrong?


You’re babbling.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> OK, don't read it.  Your choice.
> 
> We often run across the voluntarily ignorant here.


yes we do.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ha, that's pretty good, must admit.  You absolutely have tds.  I can prescribe ivermectin for you, seems like you are presenting with trump blindess. I assure you it's perfectly safe and you won't have to pick it up at Tractor Supply.


Here's another one for you --


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> yes we do.


He apparently didn’t either. The article levels criticism at the media, fauci and fda as well

it goes to my point that the sides have stopped talking to each other. Same thing with the Bangladesh mask study: “it proves masks work!”  Instead of seeing a study with a lot of flaws that for what results it found were deeply nuanced and had a lot for both sides to hate.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Keep fear alive!!
> 
> We are just going to have to accept that the virus is endemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Variant ‘Mu’ With ‘Potential to Evade Antibodies’ Found in 49 States
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant continues to surge around the country, a new mutation has been detected in 49 states and 42 countrie...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> humanevents.com


Moo or Mu?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Here's another one for you --


You are a sick man......


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> q.e.d.


Last thing my kid heard before getting on the bus. You even made him crack up.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Last thing my kid heard before getting on the bus. You even made him crack up.


Ps the laughter to which you are referring is the nervous laughter commonly attributed to kamala Harris among others

this was full blown shits and giggles from a mom and her 12 year old.  I suppose I should be grateful to  you for the moment


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> He apparently didn’t either. The article levels criticism at the media, fauci and fda as well
> 
> it goes to my point that the sides have stopped talking to each other. Same thing with the Bangladesh mask study: “it proves masks work!”  Instead of seeing a study with a lot of flaws that for what results it found were deeply nuanced and had a lot for both sides to hate.


What criticism did the article have about Fauci?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> And so can Vaccine Mandates…..


You think a vaccine mandate will cause health care shortages.

Care to explain the mechanism?  Sounds weak so far.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What criticism did the article have about Fauci?


You don’t understand the article. He doesn’t call him out by name but the criticism is there


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You think a vaccine mandate will cause health care shortages.
> 
> Care to explain the mechanism?  Sounds weak so far.


Nurses who don’t want to get the shot or who want to wait quit.  Since it’s the hospitals that largely have the mandate and the private offices also have shortages of trained nursing staff, there’s a shift.  The impact probably isn’t major but it’s there and contributing to the shortages on top of everything else I listed.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Nurses who don’t want to get the shot or who want to wait quit.  Since it’s the hospitals that largely have the mandate and the private offices also have shortages of trained nursing staff, there’s a shift.  The impact probably isn’t major but it’s there and contributing to the shortages on top of everything else I listed.


The only Docs left are Vax docs.  No jab, no life saving service.  The same folks say no jab no job....


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You don’t understand the article. He doesn’t call him out by name but the criticism is there


No, it's not.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nurses who don’t want to get the shot or who want to wait quit.  Since it’s the hospitals that largely have the mandate and the private offices also have shortages of trained nursing staff, there’s a shift.  The impact probably isn’t major but it’s there and contributing to the shortages on top of everything else I listed.


I'll be reasonable and just say "weak".


----------



## espola

espola said:


> No, it's not.


Oh, look -- nervous laughter after I point out another of Grace's little errors.


----------



## Grace T.

a beautiful essay on what we've done to kids and how it violates the natural order of things.  Don't agree with everything in the article but I found it touching.  Was censored by Medium, so now on substack.  The espola/husker crowd will no doubt hate it because it counters the kids should just suck it up argument and points out their own selfishness.









						Childhood, Interrupted
					

Children’s value — which was once predicated on their role as the literal future of humanity— has been perverted, now centering on their utility as shields for the elderly.




					ajkay.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

The Delta Covid variant and children: transmission in kids is low and only 2% hospitalised, report finds
					

While the Delta wave has seen a fivefold increase in outbreaks in schools and childcare in Australia, most kids have mild or no symptoms




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Grace T.

This is apparently o.k. but Sturgis is not.  I suppose one is vaccinated and sophisticated and the other isn't.


----------



## Grace T.

Thread by @tannahillglen on Thread Reader App
					

Thread by @tannahillglen: Impact of COVID-related educational disruption on children and adolescents: Long thread on our paper, which is out this week--will repost with live link later. Summary of the ten takeaways...…




					threadreaderapp.com
				




Impact of educational restrictions on kids


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a beautiful essay on what we've done to kids and how it violates the natural order of things.  Don't agree with everything in the article but I found it touching.  Was censored by Medium, so now on substack.  The espola/husker crowd will no doubt hate it because it counters the kids should just suck it up argument and points out their own selfishness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Childhood, Interrupted
> 
> 
> Children’s value — which was once predicated on their role as the literal future of humanity— has been perverted, now centering on their utility as shields for the elderly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ajkay.substack.com


Another of Grace's strawmen.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another of Grace's strawmen.


Nah...on this one I'm calling you two out.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Nah...on this one I'm calling you two out.


No kids in the game, makes fun of little boys who were used by grown men, makes fun of dd who got lied to by grown men who also treated woman like shit.  Makes fun of father who was lied to so many times in soccer it's all a big lie.  Calls me t supporter, anti vaxxer and anti abortionist.  This Espola fella is interesting avatar Grace and he is full of darkness.  He's in for a rude awaking, let me tell you.  One custom millstone coming up for the great Espola.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> This one's on your list.  It performs at least as well as placebo in multiple factors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection - Study Results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov


Nice plug for the makers mandated immune system.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> This right there tells you that no you don't know what you are talking about. If a vaxx has only been around for 10 months or so, we cannot possibly know if there are long term issues with it.
> 
> Right now they are looking at short term issues. And fortunately enough in the short term there doesn't appear to be much concern. However long term issues by definition take a few years or longer. Do we know the affects of giving vaccines to pregnant mothers and if it is safe for the kids? No. And countless other issues have not yet been studied long term.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask a doctor or scientist if we know the long term affects of the vaccine, nobody can tell you honestly if there will or will not be issues. Why? It takes years to determine that. Which is why vaccines develop over the course of years so they can test. Today in the short term there appears to be little issue with the vax which is a great thing. We don't know what the future holds however when we look back over years of data.
> 
> You seem to miss that obvious point. You cannot know the long term affects (if any) until we have years of data.
> 
> And for Dr Horse Paste. The guy writing wasn't endorsing the doctor in Idaho. He stated that in the past when issues arose or people started seeing something, the scientific course of action would be to investigate the claims rather than dismissing them outright. He wasn't defending the doc, etc. Just pointing out that when politics wasn't involved inquiry and research would be the preferred solution. In terms of the "horse paste" that medicine is also prescribed to humans all the time. I don't advocate going out and getting the vet version of the med in the least by the way. The press hyped the story and most failed to note the medicine is also regularly given to humans.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't irrational in the least. We have many examples of gov entities mandating or talking about mandating vaccines. We have university systems doing it. We have parts of the federal government doing it. Private companies either doing it or considering it. Etc etc.
> 
> 
> It isn't a few.
> 
> "So far, there are 24 states that require vaccination for employees of various categories."
> 
> And as you look at news articles you see more and more talk about mandates. This isn't idle talk.
> 
> 
> 
> The people in the high risk categories have been vaccinated here and in other 1st world countries at very high rates. Which is why deaths have fallen dramatically.
> 
> ---
> 
> One see's a lot of concern about getting kids vaccinated...hoping a vax is approved for them. And schools talking about mandating it once approved. Many colleges are doing this.
> 
> These age groups have no real risk of covid. And yet people want them vaxxed. We know they are not at risk. We don't know if there are any long term complications from the vax.
> 
> And no it was no manifesto. You simply failed failed to read an understand what he meant. Based on your post above you cannot distinguish between the simple terms short term (which right now looks good in terms of safety) vs long term which will take years to study. That was one of the key points made. We simply do not yet know if there will be anything concerning and so to mandate people take it is something that deserves reasoned discussion.
> 
> You seem to struggle with that concept and call that a manifesto by some kook.
> 
> 
> 
> Will this also apply to gays and AIDS? Do they get to determine that this group may incur higher costs? Or do we not allow biz to do that?
> 
> Does this apply to obese workers? They cost more in terms of insurance/costs? Or do we not allow that?
> 
> There are all kinds of things employers could do to "limit cost" by firing employees for as you say risky behavior. And yet we don't allow that do we. And if we looked at some of the examples above and many others, I lay money you would not advocate that. If you were consistent in your approach however you would have to. Right? I mean now you are making an argument that biz should be able to cut all kinds of employees if they cost more money....
> 
> Hey now you are making an argument against pre-existing condition and health care insurance through work as well based on what you wrote above. Under the ACA, employers cannot impose a waiting period for coverage of a _pre_-_existing condition_. So I guess you are advocating we should get rid of that provision? It would save a lot of insurance costs for business as well.
> 
> See where I am going here?
> 
> Anyway lets keep it simple. Start with learning the difference between short term and long term. Then try this one. Find an article that talks about the known LONG TERM side affects (if any) of these vaccines. That search will be in vain.
> 
> I have no issue with the vaccines personally. They have helped tremendously for the actual at risk population. I also think if a person wants to get vaxxed, by all means do it. I don't like where many are increasingly going...vax passports, mandates, etc.
> 
> That is where I have an issue.
> 
> If in a number of years we have long term data and know if there are bad side affects and which types of people are at risk, then that would be the point one could say let us make it mandatory. At that point for instance we could exclude people with certain health factors where the vaccine isn't a good idea. That however will take years to determine how it affects various groups. You missed that very obvious point while typing horse as fast as you could.


Did you identify the "author" of the "expert medical opinion" somewhere in this mess? Or can we all now safely conclude that you were duped by a fake "doctor" at one of those conspiracy theory websites that you constantly peruse but don't want people to know about?


----------



## crush

*MILESTONE: More than 80% of eligible Californians have at least one dose of the #COVID19 vaccine & we continue to lead the nation with 48M shots in arms. Now, we’re in a pandemic of the unvaccinated as they fill up hospitals & ICUs. Vaccines are how we end this pandemic.*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> He apparently didn’t either. The article levels criticism at the media, fauci and fda as well
> 
> it goes to my point that the sides have stopped talking to each other. Same thing with the Bangladesh mask study: “it proves masks work!”  Instead of seeing a study with a lot of flaws that for what results it found were deeply nuanced and had a lot for both sides to hate.


Would this be the same Bangladesh study you completely and deliberately misrepresented a couple days ago?

You know, the one where your "summary" was explicitly disavowed by the authors.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Would this be the same Bangladesh study you completely and deliberately misrepresented a couple days ago?
> 
> You know, the one where your "summary" was explicitly disavowed by the authors.


You mean the one that should once and for all undermine your faith in cloth masks but you are still clinging to it like a talisman?

Hey, my approach on this one was down the middle....there's a lot for both pro and antimaskers to hate about that's study....it's problematic for both.  More than anything it's illustrative that both sides have completely stopped being open minded or even speaking to each other.  The fact you can't see how the study is problematic for your side speaks volumes....and did you see the new one out of Texas posted in the bad news thread....more problems.  The one truism I've learned in my life whether parenting, soccer, COVID, work, or relationship is that things are messy and never ever neat.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Here's another one for you --


so disappointing. the pervs at lp want nothing more than to have their boogey man back.  kinda weird that you dig them but to each his own I suppose.  I'm not going to judge you for posting a video that relies on the image of a blindfolded elderly man with a banana in his mouth to draw people in.


----------



## Multi Sport

How long did 


Keepermom2 said:


> What is your point beyond the headline?  I was bated and clicked and what I found is this....
> 
> "Pfizer promoted the sale of Bextra for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns. The company will pay a criminal fine of $1.195 billion, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the United States for any matter. Pharmacia & Upjohn will also forfeit $105 million, for a total criminal resolution of $1.3 billion."
> 
> What this says to me is the government ensured that a drug company is not allowed to defraud the public with a drug that hasn't been appropriately approved by the FDA for use beyond what it was approved for, and the FDA would not approve a drug when safety concerns existed.


Really? 

Here, maybe I can help you along..

What company is marketing a current vaccine as being safe?

Was that company sued for misleading marketing?

How long after the initial marketing/release by this company did it take for a lawsuit to brought against them?

How long has their vaccine been available?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> You think a vaccine mandate will cause health care shortages.
> 
> Care to explain the mechanism?  Sounds weak so far.


What happens to a Nurse or Dr that refuses vaccination?

A similar extrapolation to the delayed surgery argument.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You mean the one that should once and for all undermine your faith in cloth masks but you are still clinging to it like a talisman?
> 
> Hey, my approach on this one was down the middle....there's a lot for both pro and antimaskers to hate about that's study....it's problematic for both.  More than anything it's illustrative that both sides have completely stopped being open minded or even speaking to each other.  The fact you can't see how the study is problematic for your side speaks volumes....and did you see the new one out of Texas posted in the bad news thread....more problems.  The one truism I've learned in my life whether parenting, soccer, COVID, work, or relationship is that things are messy and never ever neat.


It isn’t about cloth masks.  It’s about honesty.

You flat out lied about what the study said.    With me, that ends your credibility.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> What happens to a Nurse or Dr that refuses vaccination?
> 
> A similar extrapolation to the delayed surgery argument.


Depends on how many people.

Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound.  They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.

153 eventually quit or were fired.  The other 24,972 got vaccinated.   

I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Depends on how many people.
> 
> Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound.  They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.
> 
> 153 eventually quit or were fired.  The other 24,972 got vaccinated.
> 
> *I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.*


I don't think so either but it will impact locally in many places.  I know of some health systems who are importing help.  It's not being done in an ethical manner.  Trading work visa for low wages is not a good trend and will in fact drive nurses away from their profession.  We already have a nation wide shortage.  Throw in covid policies and you'll see start to see rising negative impact on a healthcare worker popualtion that is most vital to us.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It isn’t about cloth masks.  It’s about honesty.
> 
> You flat out lied about what the study said.    With me, that ends your credibility.


p.s. thanks for proving my point that the two sides are pretty much done with each other.  If Newsom isn't recalled or the virus doesn't somehow go away with this winter, it's two separate COVID Americas from here on out.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It isn’t about cloth masks.  It’s about honesty.
> 
> You flat out lied about what the study said.    With me, that ends your credibility.


You always impute the worst into people who challenge your beliefs.  Why is that? Shocking.  I posted the study for everyone to read and my main comment was there's a lot for everyone to hate there.

In any case, back at you re the cloth masks.  If you are willing to die on that hills there's no help for you.

Strangely silent too about the Texas study.  You always get testy when your beliefs are challenged


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Depends on how many people.
> 
> Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound.  They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.
> 
> 153 eventually quit or were fired.  The other 24,972 got vaccinated.
> 
> I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.


No but it can lead to a staffing shortage.  Never said anything about a mass exodus.  Just as there is no longer a massive or overwhelming delay in surgeries due to Covid UCI occupancy. They are both more the exception than the rule.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> Did you identify the "author" of the "expert medical opinion" somewhere in this mess? Or can we all now safely conclude that you were duped by a fake "doctor" at one of those conspiracy theory websites that you constantly peruse but don't want people to know about?


Note how you avoid the point. 

We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact. 

What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory? 

Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out). 

Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Note how you avoid the point.
> 
> We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact.
> 
> What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory?
> 
> Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out).
> 
> Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?


Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)

I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet. 

BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."

A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.

As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous  

As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian


----------



## Grace T.

1. More science!
2. If the Trump White House did this people would be screaming murder.









						CDC tightened masking guidelines after threats from teachers union, emails show
					

The CDC tightened its masking guidance after a prominent teachers union threatened to release harsh criticism of the Biden administration's policy.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
> 
> Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)
> 
> I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet.
> 
> BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."
> 
> A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.
> 
> As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous
> 
> As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian


It isn't hard to research.

There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.

There has not been any long term studies on them.

So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?

Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.









						Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?
					

A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics




					www.medpagetoday.com
				




Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.









						Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
					

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov
				




By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...

What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term. 

We don't know for example....
Should pregnant women take it? 
Should young children? 
What about someone with X condition? 
How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues? 

There are a whole host of unknowns. 

Nobody knows. 

That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way. 

In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups. 

However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it. 

Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't hard to research.
> 
> There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.
> 
> There has not been any long term studies on them.
> 
> So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?
> 
> Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?
> 
> 
> A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> 
> Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...
> 
> What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.
> 
> We don't know for example....
> Should pregnant women take it?
> Should young children?
> What about someone with X condition?
> How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?
> 
> There are a whole host of unknowns.
> 
> Nobody knows.
> 
> That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.
> 
> In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.
> 
> However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.
> 
> Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?


The other hole is we don't know what impact on people who have had COVID before and whether they need the full dosage, just a booster, or are good to go for at least x amount of time.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't hard to research.
> 
> There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.
> 
> There has not been any long term studies on them.
> 
> So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?
> 
> Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?
> 
> 
> A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> 
> Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...
> 
> What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.
> 
> We don't know for example....
> Should pregnant women take it?
> Should young children?
> What about someone with X condition?
> How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?
> 
> There are a whole host of unknowns.
> 
> Nobody knows.
> 
> That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.
> 
> In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.
> 
> However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.
> 
> Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?


You're either 100% pro-vaccine, including mandates, or you're an anti-vaxxer.  Asking questions makes you an anti-vaxxer.  Those apparently are the only two boxes available.

Honest question.  With previous vaccinations that have been mandated (I believe just for educational settings), how long after the vaccine was developed was it mandated?  Was it only a matter of months?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> No but it can lead to a staffing shortage.  Never said anything about a mass exodus.  Just as there is no longer a massive or overwhelming delay in surgeries due to Covid UCI occupancy. They are both more the exception than the rule.


Can’t lead to a staffing shortage larger than 0.6%.  That was the upper bound.

How are you estimating the impact of ICU occupancy?   Any numbers behind it?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Can’t lead to a staffing shortage larger than 0.6%.  That was the upper bound.
> 
> How are you estimating the impact of ICU occupancy?   Any numbers behind it?


How are you estimating it?


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> You're either 100% pro-vaccine, including mandates, or you're an anti-vaxxer.  Asking questions makes you an anti-vaxxer.  Those apparently are the only two boxes available.
> 
> Honest question.  With previous vaccinations that have been mandated (I believe just for educational settings), how long after the vaccine was developed was it mandated?  Was it only a matter of months?


I looked up the answer to my own question.  Polio was mandated for schools in California 6 years after the vaccine was developed.  The polio vaccine is also close to 100% effective.

It incredibly misleading to justify Covid vaccine mandates because we have required other vaccinations in schools for years.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't hard to research.
> 
> There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.
> 
> There has not been any long term studies on them.
> 
> So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?
> 
> Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?
> 
> 
> A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> 
> Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...
> 
> What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.
> 
> We don't know for example....
> Should pregnant women take it?
> Should young children?
> What about someone with X condition?
> How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?
> 
> There are a whole host of unknowns.
> 
> Nobody knows.
> 
> That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.
> 
> In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.
> 
> However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.
> 
> Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?


So, they have been testing mRNA for years on humans, have noted some side effects, so if you have doubts talk to your doctor and based on your medical history, you should get their go ahead or not. Meanwhile 4.6B + vaccines have been administered. Long term effects in vaccines manifest in the first couple of months as they are one & done (generally), so we have vaccines that have hundreds of millions of people in the 2 months + range to monitor long term effects, again LT for vaccines not whatever you happen to consider to be long term.

For your various categories of "unknowns", consult your doctor, not the internet, if you are concerned.


----------



## Soccerfan2

watfly said:


> You're either 100% pro-vaccine, including mandates, or you're an anti-vaxxer.  Asking questions makes you an anti-vaxxer.  Those apparently are the only two boxes available.
> 
> Honest question.  With previous vaccinations that have been mandated (I believe just for educational settings), how long after the vaccine was developed was it mandated?  Was it only a matter of months?


That’s a good question. I wonder though, if people understand the relevance of it. Why do people who have close to zero knowledge of the vaccine clinic trial and approval process get so concerned? Do you not trust your doctor? If you are not knowledgeable, I guess it can seem scary that the process didn’t take as long as it has in the past, but it might be reassuring to listen to experts about why that is and why they are still not concerned with taking the vaccine or giving it to their own kids. There’s room for a range of intelligent opinions on this topic but if you don’t fully understand why the process was shorter this time, you don’t have the information you need to judge the potential impact (or lack of) either. 
As a side note, vaccines have often been mandated for the military first before other settings like education, and this public pushback against a new (and mandated) vaccine is not unique in our history.
If anyone is a reader, Mountains Beyond Mountains is an awesome book that might give you a different perspective on vaccine programs and human nature.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
> 
> Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)
> 
> I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet.
> 
> BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."
> 
> A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.
> 
> As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous
> 
> As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian





whatithink said:


> Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
> 
> Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)
> 
> I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet.
> 
> BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."
> 
> A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.
> 
> As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous
> 
> As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian


 Here you go Tyrants.  Put your mask on.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccerfan2 said:


> Do you not trust your doctor? If you are not knowledgeable, I guess it can seem scary that the process didn’t take as long as it has in the past, but it might be reassuring to listen to experts about why that is and why they are still not concerned with taking the vaccine or giving it to their own kids.


Part of the problem is that in the handling of this pandemic, the experts have beclowned themselves: outright lying (about masks or herd immunity thresholds), suppressing info (the China lab leak or debate on treatments), showing themselves being politically motivated (the BLM protests, listening to the teacher's unions on school reopenings), or just plain wrong (14 days to slow the spread....by July 4 this is over).  Add to that a healthy dose of skepticism from some communities that have been abused in the past or are looked down upon the ruling elites (e.g. Obama party was o.k. because they were vaxxed and sophisticated, but Sturgis is a death trap), and "trust the experts" isn't the best card to play.   

Regardless of how you feel about him, it is overwhelming true that the biggest thing Biden could do to reinstall trust on the right at this point is to fire Fauci or get him to take an honorable retirement.  Biden won't do it for a variety of political reasons.  And before the trolls jump in and say oh you are just being political here: I actually don't want him to fire Fauci because I'm pretty sure the replacement will likely be worse.


----------



## watfly

Soccerfan2 said:


> Do you not trust your doctor?


Trust, but verify.  We're a multiple doctor opinion family.  We've had too many issues with doctors to trust a single one outright.  My daughter was almost killed at birth due to a procedure we were against that our doctor assured us was safe.  Doctors are not without bias or misguided opinions (or often just unmitigated arrogance).  They're human just like the rest of us.  We consulted with our doctor and all our kids our vaccinated, in fact, all but my son got our vaxs early .  My daughter has had a troubling side effect from the vaccinations for nearly six months and shows no sign of disappearing.

Its healthy to question reported science.  I'm pro-science but we have to remember that its humans that are conducting the science.


----------



## Soccerfan2

watfly said:


> Trust, but verify.  We're a multiple doctor opinion family.  We've had too many issues with doctors to trust a single one outright.  My daughter was almost killed at birth due to a procedure we were against that our doctor assured us was safe.  Doctors are not without bias or misguided opinions (or often just unmitigated arrogance).  They're human just like the rest of us.  We consulted with our doctor and all our kids our vaccinated, in fact, all but my son got our vaxs early .  My daughter has had a troubling side effect from the vaccinations for nearly six months and shows no sign of disappearing.
> 
> Its healthy to question reported science.  I'm pro-science but we have to remember that its humans that are conducting the science.


I do agree with that!! I wish your daughter well and hope her troubles disappear.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Depends on how many people.
> 
> Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound.  They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.
> 
> 153 eventually quit or were fired.  The other 24,972 got vaccinated.
> 
> *I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.*


I don't think so either but it will impact locally in many places.  I know of some health systems who are importing help.  It's not being done in an ethical manner.  Trading work visa for low wages is not a good trend and will in fact drive nurses away from their profession.  We already have a nation wide shortage.  Throw in covid policies and you'll see start to see rising negative impact on a healthcare worker popualtion that is most vital to us.


----------



## Grace T.

Americans' Ratings of CDC Communication Turn Negative
					

More Americans now disagree than agree that the CDC has communicated a clear plan about the coronavirus response. Ratings of President Joe Biden and governors are also less positive.




					news.gallup.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Note how you avoid the point.
> 
> We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact.
> 
> What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory?
> 
> Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out).
> 
> Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?


I think the "Multiplicity" theory of duplication also applies to aliases from the same individual. The further a "duplicate" gets from the source, the more messed up it becomes.









						Multiplicity (1996) - IMDb
					

Multiplicity: Directed by Harold Ramis. With Michael Keaton, Andie MacDowell, Zack Duhame, Katie Schlossberg. A man who never has enough time for the things he wants to do is offered the opportunity to have himself duplicated.




					www.imdb.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Depends on how many people.
> 
> Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound.  They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.
> 
> 153 eventually quit or were fired.  The other 24,972 got vaccinated.
> 
> I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.


The 153 are now on call at the ivermectin clinic, so there is no net loss.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. More science!
> 2. If the Trump White House did this people would be screaming murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC tightened masking guidelines after threats from teachers union, emails show
> 
> 
> The CDC tightened its masking guidance after a prominent teachers union threatened to release harsh criticism of the Biden administration's policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Another strawman.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Part of the problem is that in the handling of this pandemic, the experts have beclowned themselves: outright lying (about masks or herd immunity thresholds), suppressing info (the China lab leak or debate on treatments), showing themselves being politically motivated (the BLM protests, listening to the teacher's unions on school reopenings), or just plain wrong (14 days to slow the spread....by July 4 this is over).  Add to that a healthy dose of skepticism from some communities that have been abused in the past or are looked down upon the ruling elites (e.g. Obama party was o.k. because they were vaxxed and sophisticated, but Sturgis is a death trap), and "trust the experts" isn't the best card to play.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about him, it is overwhelming true that the biggest thing Biden could do to reinstall trust on the right at this point is to fire Fauci or get him to take an honorable retirement.  Biden won't do it for a variety of political reasons.  And before the trolls jump in and say oh you are just being political here: I actually don't want him to fire Fauci because I'm pretty sure the replacement will likely be worse.


More strawmen.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another strawman.





espola said:


> More strawmen.


It's becoming apparent you know very little about strawmen.  Gaslighting, though, that you do know about!


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Note how you avoid the point.
> 
> We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact.
> 
> What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory?
> 
> Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out).
> 
> Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?


So what you're saying is that you quoted a fake manifesto from a fake doctor that you found at a conspiracy theory website that you are too embarrassed to identify.

This is what anti-vaxxers are.  They are suckers who are easily duped by fake experts making fake expert opinions based on fake science telling them things they want to here.  Literally all the anti-vaxxer bs can be summed up with desert hound's reliance on a fraudulent "expert" from a fringe/alt/whackadoo website that he's too chicken to even identify because it will expose him and all his bs for what it is.


----------



## Grace T.

Vaccine mandate is likely coming to LAUSD.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but full approval Pfizer has been granted only to the over 16, not 12-16 correct?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435710457537568769


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's becoming apparent you know very little about strawmen.  Gaslighting, though, that you do know about!


You often erect groups ("you guys, remember?), invent political organizations, and mischaracterize other posters statements, all from your imagination.  You then proceed to burn down arguments that no one has, at least not as a group. 

Is that good enough understanding for you?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You often erect groups ("you guys, remember?), invent political organizations, and mischaracterize other posters statements, all from your imagination.  You then proceed to burn down arguments that no one has, at least not as a group.
> 
> Is that good enough understanding for you?


In the first I did no such thing...I'm passing on info and pointed out if Trump was doing what the Biden white house is accused of doing, people would (rightly) be going ape shit.

In the second, I defined the group and even passed on examples.

Guess you don't understand.  I do admire the gaslighting ability, though.  At least we know you can do something well, Magoo.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> It's becoming apparent you know very little about strawmen.  Gaslighting, though, that you do know about!


He heard other Trolls use it so he thinks it applies….


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> In the first I did no such thing...I'm passing on info and pointed out if Trump was doing what the Biden white house is accused of doing, people would (rightly) be going ape shit.
> 
> In the second, I defined the group and even passed on examples.
> 
> Guess you don't understand.  I do admire the gaslighting ability, though.  At least we know you can do something well, Magoo.


How about your prior lie that Newsom is responsible for counties being able to issue their own emergency mandates, which you then tried to cover by claiming making some nonsense statement that the statute was limited to killing livestock?  Or claiming that although you think states should be able to make their own decisions, Los Angeles County should not because it is a very different situation, despite the fact that Los Angeles County is at least as large geographically as three states and more populous than all but 7 states?


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> How about your prior lie that Newsom is responsible for counties being able to issue their own emergency mandates, which you then tried to cover by claiming making some nonsense statement that the statute was limited to killing livestock?  Or claiming that although you think states should be able to make their own decisions, Los Angeles County should not because it is a very different situation, despite the fact that Los Angeles County is at least as large geographically as three states and more populous than all but 7 states?


Hey EOTL.  How yah been?   Long time, huh?  Whatcha been up to?  Still playing amateur counsel?

1.  Wow way to distort my position.  Dad4: see this is a deliberate mischaracterization of position in an attempt to lie....when you post the study itself and invite people to read it themselves, I'm not attempting to distort anything.  EOTL: The legal issue is not just livestock...it's whether the counties have authority to undertake actions which exceed the enumerated powers set out in the statute, considering no one contemplated such powers at the time the statutes were drafted.  It is entirely possible that a court would agree with you and say and statute was not intended to be limiting.  It is also entirely possible that the courts could say certain actions undertaken (the relevant one was the shuttering of churches and virtually all economic commerce which was the issue at the time) exceeded the powers granted by the statutes.  The emergency decree was a belt and suspenders approach to give the counties more leverage.  Newsom facing a political recall made a tactical decision to leave that in place to allow the counties maximum flexibility to do what they thought they needed to do while at the same time not taking any actions himself (such as a state wide indoor mask mandate) that might make him accountable during the recall.

2. My position that the states should have maximum flexibility is because of the US constitution and the states are sovereign entities.  As you know, the Constitution doesn't care if California is several multiples the size of Rhode Island.  My position that states should be allowed to control their own pandemic responses is based on my belief of a limited interstate commerce clause and that nowhere in the Constitution does it give the federal government power over public health, therefore reserving such right to the states.  The counties, of course, have no such sovereign claim, and therefore are subordinate to the state and have such powers only as the state governments delegate under their respective constitutions.  

3. Liberals loved the distinction of sovereign powers while Trump was president.  Otherwise, Trump would have ordered Newsom and Cuomo and the other blue state governors to open up.  Now Republicans love the distinction because DeSantis can give Biden the finger.  Having recently returned from the Dakotas, it sets up a hilarious and nonsensical situation that you need to wear a mask to enter a national park there, but pretty much no one else is wearing a mask.

4. At first you had me going (even the reference to Golden Gate) that you are an actual legal scholar but your failure to understand the distinction in 2, the vocab you use and the quasi legal understanding and failure to understand legal nuances (few lawyers take absolutist legal positions....it's beaten out of us in law school) points to you being my old friend EOTL.  Missed yah (not).


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> How are you estimating it?


Well, it’s now official state policy in Texas.   Abbott sent out a letter asking hospitals to delay all elective surgeries to help free up resources for covid patients.  It’s the second time he’s done it.  The previous time was a complete ban.  To me, that makes it a rule, not an exception.

In Abbott’s words:

“voluntarily postpone medical procedures for which delay will not result in loss of life or a deterioration in the patient’s condition."









						Gov. Greg Abbott asks Texas hospitals to delay nonessential procedures as COVID-19 patients strain capacity
					

Abbott's request was one of several steps to address rising coronavirus case numbers and hospitalizations. He did not back down from his refusal to allow local mask mandates.




					www.texastribune.org
				




Similar headlines in other hard hit states.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hey EOTL.  How yah been?   Long time, huh?  Whatcha been up to?  Still playing amateur counsel?
> 
> 1.  Wow way to distort my position.  Dad4: see this is a deliberate mischaracterization of position in an attempt to lie....when you post the study itself and invite people to read it themselves, I'm not attempting to distort anything.  EOTL: The legal issue is not just livestock...it's whether the counties have authority to undertake actions which exceed the enumerated powers set out in the statute, considering no one contemplated such powers at the time the statutes were drafted.  It is entirely possible that a court would agree with you and say and statute was not intended to be limiting.  It is also entirely possible that the courts could say certain actions undertaken (the relevant one was the shuttering of churches and virtually all economic commerce which was the issue at the time) exceeded the powers granted by the statutes.  The emergency decree was a belt and suspenders approach to give the counties more leverage.  Newsom facing a political recall made a tactical decision to leave that in place to allow the counties maximum flexibility to do what they thought they needed to do while at the same time not taking any actions himself (such as a state wide indoor mask mandate) that might make him accountable during the recall.
> 
> 2. My position that the states should have maximum flexibility is because of the US constitution and the states are sovereign entities.  As you know, the Constitution doesn't care if California is several multiples the size of Rhode Island.  My position that states should be allowed to control their own pandemic responses is based on my belief of a limited interstate commerce clause and that nowhere in the Constitution does it give the federal government power over public health, therefore reserving such right to the states.  The counties, of course, have no such sovereign claim, and therefore are subordinate to the state and have such powers only as the state governments delegate under their respective constitutions.
> 
> 3. Liberals loved the distinction of sovereign powers while Trump was president.  Otherwise, Trump would have ordered Newsom and Cuomo and the other blue state governors to open up.  Now Republicans love the distinction because DeSantis can give Biden the finger.  Having recently returned from the Dakotas, it sets up a hilarious and nonsensical situation that you need to wear a mask to enter a national park there, but pretty much no one else is wearing a mask.
> 
> 4. At first you had me going (even the reference to Golden Gate) that you are an actual legal scholar but your failure to understand the distinction in 2, the vocab you use and the quasi legal understanding and failure to understand legal nuances (few lawyers take absolutist legal positions....it's beaten out of us in law school) points to you being my old friend EOTL.  Missed yah (not).


Study: do not interpret this to mean the reduction from masks is only 10%.

Grace: the study shows that the reduction from masks is only 10%.

What did I miss?  It certainly reads like a deliberate misrepresentation.  The authors even took time to make it clear that your reading was not supported by their data.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> So what you're saying is that you quoted a fake manifesto from a fake doctor that you found at a conspiracy theory website that you are too embarrassed to identify.
> 
> This is what anti-vaxxers are.  They are suckers who are easily duped by fake experts making fake expert opinions based on fake science telling them things they want to here.  Literally all the anti-vaxxer bs can be summed up with desert hound's reliance on a fraudulent "expert" from a fringe/alt/whackadoo website that he's too chicken to even identify because it will expose him and all his bs for what it is.


Lets try again. 

It is a fact that they do not have long term data on any possible side effects of the covid vax. 

You seem to struggle with that concept. Do you agree that there is no long term data?

Do you think we should mandate people to take a vaccine if we do not know if there are any long term issues. 

That is a reasonable position. You seem to think that is conspiracy or anti vax. Why? 

See if you can string together a coherent response to the above points.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Study: do not interpret this to mean the reduction from masks is only 10%.
> 
> Grace: the study shows that the reduction from masks is only 10%.
> 
> What did I miss?  It certainly reads like a deliberate misrepresentation.  The authors even took time to make it clear that your reading was not supported by their data.


Again, you always assume the worst about your opponents, particularly those that attack your cherished beliefs.  Seriously, why would I do that and post the study?  Do I think you aren't going to read it?  The study showed a roughly 10% reduction from surgical masks.  Sorry I didn't qualify it given the circumstances, given the sample size, given the % of the population wearing the mask.  I'm doing multiple things and only have a limited amount of time to play with you all.  I also shorthanded that the study had room for a potential upside for further protectiveness if wider use was adopted.  I could also note that the study showed a bigger effect in the older people and the distancing and this effect in the older (who may have been more readily willing to uptake masks AND distance) could potentially largely be responsible for the entire effect.

Now wanna talk about the things you are ignoring such as the cloth masks or the texas study?  Of course not....you are down to casting aspersions on others motivations to protect your illusions.  As I said, you are rapidly sitting alone on cloth mask island as most of Europe and a large portion of the scientific community is moving on from that and you are still prepared to die on that hill.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> In the first I did no such thing...I'm passing on info and pointed out if Trump was doing what the Biden white house is accused of doing, people would (rightly) be going ape shit.
> 
> In the second, I defined the group and even passed on examples.
> 
> Guess you don't understand.  I do admire the gaslighting ability, though.  At least we know you can do something well, Magoo.


It's so bad that you don't even know you are doing it (see ape shit comment above).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's so bad that you don't even know you are doing it (see ape shit comment above).


<sigh> lights are on, but it's still dim.

The bigger question is whether you are actually good at and knowing you are gaslighting or if you are just aping what others are doing.


----------



## Grace T.

Nate Silver, who is not a righty by any stretch of the imagination, is positively getting skewered today on SM.  Like I said, I think we are at an end with each others patience with each other and have stopped listening.  Nate Silver has in no way been a hard core anti-lockdowner/anti-masker/anti-vaxxer yet is still being raked over the coals for questioning a lot of the preferred policies coming out of team panic.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435220339630485506


----------



## Grace T.

This is where we are at politically....violence and gorilla masks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435719994566905859


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> <sigh> lights are on, but it's still dim.
> 
> The bigger question is whether you are actually good at and knowing you are gaslighting or if you are just aping what others are doing.


He's too busy watching  videos of his favorite boogey man, blindfolded with a banana in his mouth.  Apparently he's a big fan of the folks who put the video together.


----------



## Desert Hound

Sometimes all it takes is a spark to start the resistance to gov overreach.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Well, it’s now official state policy in Texas.   Abbott sent out a letter asking hospitals to delay all elective surgeries to help free up resources for covid patients.  It’s the second time he’s done it.  The previous time was a complete ban.  To me, that makes it a rule, not an exception.
> 
> In Abbott’s words:
> 
> “voluntarily postpone medical procedures for which delay will not result in loss of life or a deterioration in the patient’s condition."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Greg Abbott asks Texas hospitals to delay nonessential procedures as COVID-19 patients strain capacity
> 
> 
> Abbott's request was one of several steps to address rising coronavirus case numbers and hospitalizations. He did not back down from his refusal to allow local mask mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.texastribune.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similar headlines in other hard hit states.


So “Elective” surgeries.  The original question was how my vaccination status affects your health.  Your retort is that Unvaxx’d people are over crowding ICU’s which is delaying surgeries.  But upon further clarity, you mean elective surgeries which are not really considered “health emergencies”.

Got it….we’ll put this one to bed now.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> So “Elective” surgeries.  The original question was how my vaccination status affects your health.  Your retort is that Unvaxx’d people are over crowding ICU’s which is delaying surgeries.  But upon further clarity, you mean elective surgeries which are not really considered “health emergencies”.
> 
> Got it….we’ll put this one to bed now.


Read the article for the definition of "elective."

They don't mean just face lifts.  It means it can be scheduled.   Pretty much any non emergency procedure.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Study: do not interpret this to mean the reduction from masks is only 10%.
> 
> Grace: the study shows that the reduction from masks is only 10%.
> 
> What did I miss?  It certainly reads like a deliberate misrepresentation.  The authors even took time to make it clear that your reading was not supported by their data.


Reminds me of your mask mea culpa.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Read the article for the definition of "elective."
> 
> They don't mean just face lifts.  It means it can be scheduled.   Pretty much any non emergency procedure.


Hurricane Dervish!


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Lets try again.
> 
> It is a fact that they do not have long term data on any possible side effects of the covid vax.
> 
> You seem to struggle with that concept. Do you agree that there is no long term data?
> 
> Do you think we should mandate people to take a vaccine if we do not know if there are any long term issues.
> 
> That is a reasonable position. You seem to think that is conspiracy or anti vax. Why?
> 
> See if you can string together a coherent response to the above points.


There's an enormous amount of "long term data", as I've pointed out to you. Side effects for vaccines manifest in 6-8 weeks. That's accepted medical fact. There's a plethora of material on it. Large scale vaccinations started in January.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> There's an enormous amount of "long term data", as I've pointed out to you. Side effects for vaccines manifest in 6-8 weeks. That's accepted medical fact. There's a plethora of material on it. Large scale vaccinations started in January.


Generally true.  The rebuttal is that the mrna vaccine is new.  It should be 100% safe.  But there's no way to 100% really know that yet, given that experts have overlooked things in the past before and only 8 months have passed.  Again....overwhelming odds are that it's perfectly fine...but you don't know what you don't know.

What's the hilarious part in all this is that the hard core members of team panic have completely ignored that the virus has limited risk to a large portion of the population, particularly children, and has been very bad in truly assessing risk, particularly among the vaccinated.  The hard core antivaxxers are really bad at assessing the risk of vaccines, particularly among those individuals that are 30 or older and haven't had the virus.  It's the same fallacy in reverse and the extremes are basically throwing the same poop at each other.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Generally true.  The rebuttal is that the mrna vaccine is new.  It should be 100% safe.  But there's no way to 100% really know that yet, given that experts have overlooked things in the past before and only 8 months have passed.  Again....overwhelming odds are that it's perfectly fine...but you don't know what you don't know.
> 
> What's the hilarious part in all this is that the hard core members of team panic have completely ignored that the virus has limited risk to a large portion of the population, particularly children, and has been very bad in truly assessing risk, particularly among the vaccinated.  The hard core antivaxxers are really bad at assessing the risk of vaccines, particularly among those individuals that are 30 or older and haven't had the virus.  It's the same fallacy in reverse and the extremes are basically throwing the same poop at each other.


Scientists have been studying mRNA for decades. They have produced vaccines and tested in humans for over a decade. So, yes, its true that this is the first approved mRNA vaccine, but its not something someone picked up 18 months ago. This is the culmination of 20 or more years of R&D.

And, yes, we never know if something is 100% safe. People takes drugs every day that are 100% not safe, that come with a litany of warnings, but people will take them under Drs advice ... but not get vaccinated based on the same persons advice - you couldn't make it up!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Trust, but verify.  We're a multiple doctor opinion family.  We've had too many issues with doctors to trust a single one outright.  My daughter was almost killed at birth due to a procedure we were against that our doctor assured us was safe.  Doctors are not without bias or misguided opinions (or often just unmitigated arrogance).  They're human just like the rest of us.  We consulted with our doctor and all our kids our vaccinated, in fact, all but my son got our vaxs early .  My daughter has had a troubling side effect from the vaccinations for nearly six months and shows no sign of disappearing.
> 
> Its healthy to question reported science.  I'm pro-science but we have to remember that its humans that are conducting the science.


And malpractice premiums are based on risk.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Scientists have been studying mRNA for decades. They have produced vaccines and tested in humans for over a decade. So, yes, its true that this is the first approved mRNA vaccine, but its not something someone picked up 18 months ago. This is the culmination of 20 or more years of R&D.
> 
> And, yes, we never know if something is 100% safe. People takes drugs every day that are 100% not safe, that come with a litany of warnings, but people will take them under Drs advice ... but not get vaccinated based on the same persons advice - you couldn't make it up!


20 or more years of R&D to issue it under an EUA?  Lol.  Yeah, "-you couldn't make it up!"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The ramp up in travel nurse salaries makes me think it is pretty common.
> 
> Look up travel nurse salaries.  Compare a 2019 article against a 2021 job posting.  The price has tripled.  That implies a serious shortage and inelastic supply.
> 
> Put another way, Florida can only staff their covid wards by outbidding Texas.  And vice versa.




*“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”*

― F. A. Hayek, The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism


----------



## Keepermom2

Multi Sport said:


> How long did
> 
> Really?
> 
> Here, maybe I can help you along..
> 
> What company is marketing a current vaccine as being safe?
> 
> Was that company sued for misleading marketing?
> 
> How long after the initial marketing/release by this company did it take for a lawsuit to brought against them?
> 
> How long has their vaccine been available?


The company marketed a drug that wasn't approved for the marketed use.  The vaccine and related dosage has already been studied and *peer reviewed *as being safe and effective for the intended use. See the New England Journal of Medicine for the *peer reviewed studies* that includes the effectiveness of the vaccine against the Delta variant.


----------



## Grace T.

LAUSD's mandate will apply to 12 and up.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435752651753467912


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Generally true.  The rebuttal is that the mrna vaccine is new.  It should be 100% safe.  But there's no way to 100% really know that yet, given that experts have overlooked things in the past before and only 8 months have passed.  Again....overwhelming odds are that it's perfectly fine...but you don't know what you don't know.
> 
> What's the hilarious part in all this is that the hard core members of team panic have completely ignored that the virus has limited risk to a large portion of the population, particularly children, and has been very bad in truly assessing risk, particularly among the vaccinated.  The hard core antivaxxers are really bad at assessing the risk of vaccines, particularly among those individuals that are 30 or older and haven't had the virus.  It's the same fallacy in reverse and the extremes are basically throwing the same poop at each other.


Orwell’s “Party” proclaimed in _1984 _that “Freedom is slavery.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*The Totalitarian Roots of Vaccine Mandates*
Over the course of the pandemic, principles of what a free society means are being redefined by collectivists.  

Consider this essay, Don’t COVID Vaccine Mandates Actually Promote Freedom? Medical ethicists Kyle Ferguson and Arthur Caplan argue, “Those who oppose cracking down on the unvaccinated are getting it all wrong.” Ferguson and Caplan are sure their opponents have a “flawed view of freedom.” They argue “Passports and mandates are hardly ‘strong-arm tactics.’ These strategies are better seen as liberty inducers. They bring about freedom rather than deplete it.”

They add, “a successful COVID-19 vaccination campaign will liberate us — as individuals and as a collective — from the callous grip of a pandemic that just won’t seem to end.” Orwell’s “Party” proclaimed in _1984 _that “Freedom is slavery.” Ferguson and Caplan come close to arguing “Slavery is freedom.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Seduced by the Common Good*
For some, flowery visions of the common good have always been seductive. In _The Road to Serfdom_, Friedrich Hayek observes that even well-meaning people will ask, “If it be necessary to achieve important ends,” why shouldn’t the system “be run by decent people for the good of the community as a whole?”

Hayek challenges the axiomatic belief that wise people can tell others what the common good is. He explains why there is no such thing as the common good: “The welfare and happiness of millions cannot be measured on a single scale of less or more. The welfare of the people, like the happiness of a man, depends upon a great many things that can be provided in an infinite variety of combinations.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*The Arrogant Jacobin Mindset*

Burns explains that leaders operating from the *common good mindset have the “absolute conviction” that they are right. Burns explores the French Revolution as he recounts the totalitarian tyranny of the Jacobins: “The Jacobins believed only they understood the general will of the French people, hence they were morally right.”*

Burns continues, *“Opposition was considered not merely mistaken but evil and traitorous and hence punishable, even lethally. The Jacobins asserted a monopoly on virtue which meant to them a license to kill those who held up other values.”

Today, health Jacobins don’t argue that they should kill the unvaccinated, but some argue that the unvaccinated should be deprived of healthcare.*

In his seminal essay, “Individualism: True and False,” Hayek contrasts true individualism and the false individualism of philosophers such as Rousseau.

True individualism *“is a product of an acute consciousness of the limitations of the individual mind which induces an attitude of humility toward the impersonal and anonymous social processes by which individuals help to create things greater than they know.” In contrast, false individualism “is the product of an exaggerated belief in the powers of individual reason and of a consequent contempt for anything which has not been consciously designed by it or is not fully intelligible to it.”*

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.Lol!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Masquerading as people who reason the best, Ferguson and Caplan in Hayek’s words “pretend to be able directly to comprehend social wholes like society.”

Hayek’s explanation of “true individualism” is the antidote for such hubris. *Hayek’s approach is “antirationalistic” and “regards man not as a highly rational and intelligent but as a very irrational and fallible being, whose individual errors are corrected only in the course of a social process, and which aims at making the best of a very imperfect material.”

This is where YOU people come from.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*We can never make the best of “imperfect material” when those posing as having superior knowledge are allowed to coerce others.* Hayek writes, “What individualism teaches us is that society is greater than the individual only in so far as it is free. In so far as it is controlled or directed, it is limited to the powers of the individual minds which control or direct it.” *In other words, choose to be directed by the limited power of Dr. Fauci’s mind or choose the virtually unlimited and unpredictable power of a free society.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Let’s put this together. *Health collectivists, behaving like Jacobins, are sure there is one best way; they believe they are the arbiter of truth. Cloaking themselves in the holy robes of the augur of the common good, dissent is not to be tolerated. The end to the pandemic requires not that we follow the collectivists but that we are free to consider different perspectives and discover in the course of an uncoerced social process what really works.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Great Barrington Declaration 

As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

*The Great Barrington Declaration*
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

*Co-signers*
*Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
*Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
*Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England

​


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Should DeSantis even be listened to?


Okay.  No.  Not to Desantis.  The numbers show 4X as many cases compared to this time (9/7/2020) last year with slightly lower IFR as of 9/7/21.


----------



## Grace T.

The risk of myocarditis in young boys from the vaccine (relative to their risk of hospitalization) may be more serious than previously thought.....ironic it comes on the same day as the LAUSD mandate is put on the table....









						SARS-CoV-2 mRNA Vaccination-Associated Myocarditis in Children Ages 12-17: A Stratified National Database Analysis
					

Objectives Establishing the rate of post-vaccination cardiac myocarditis in the 12-15 and 16-17-year-old population in the context of their COVID-19 hospitalization risk is critical for developing a vaccination recommendation framework that balances harms with benefits for this patient...




					www.medrxiv.org
				




A possible solution to minimize risk would have been to use the mRNA vaccines for young women and the more traditional vaccines (AZ, J&J, Novovax) in young men, but the regulatory process, particularly when rushed, is messy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*COVID-19 pandemic leads to major backsliding on childhood vaccinations, new WHO, UNICEF data shows*
*23 million children missed out on basic childhood vaccines through routine health services in 2020, the highest number since 2009 and 3.7 million more than in 2019*

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/covid-19-pandemic-leads-major-backsliding-childhood-vaccinations-new-who-unicef-data


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"This is a wake-up call – we cannot allow a legacy of COVID-19 to be the resurgence of measles, polio and other killers." -


----------



## Grace T.

An interesting middle of the road take on the Bangladesh mask study, written pre the Texas study coming out.









						Opinion | Are We Wearing the Wrong Masks?
					

A cluster RCT suggests surgical masks may be more effective




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> An interesting middle of the road take on the Bangladesh mask study, written pre the Texas study coming out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Are We Wearing the Wrong Masks?
> 
> 
> A cluster RCT suggests surgical masks may be more effective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com


Yet another writer who can’t get their head around confidence intervals.

The confidence interval for cloth was wide.  It included no effect.  It included the same reduction as surgical masks.

So, if you insist on the 95% CI, you have to say:

”maybe cloth masks do nothing, and maybe they are every bit as good as surgical.  We still don’t know.”

That is not at all satisfying, but it is an accurate description of the CI.

Or, you can go non-scientific and assume the average case:  Either cloth and surgical can help, but cloth are only about half as good as surgical.

That’s what I did for personal use.  N95 for short term indoor, cloth for outdoors but in person, and try very hard to avoid long term indoor situations. 

The cloth for outdoors is the weak point.  My guess is that the daily indoor prayer gatherings in Bangladesh placed a heavier burden on filtration, and therefore explain much of the difference between cloth and surgical.  But that is only a guess.  It may be that the next study shows that cloth are less effective even in outdoor settings, and I end up switching to surgical/N95 entirely.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yet another writer who can’t get their head around confidence intervals.
> 
> The confidence interval for cloth was wide.  It included no effect.  It included the same reduction as surgical masks.
> 
> So, if you insist on the 95% CI, you have to say:
> 
> ”maybe cloth masks do nothing, and maybe they are every bit as good as surgical.  We still don’t know.”
> 
> That is not at all satisfying, but it is an accurate description of the CI.
> 
> Or, you can go non-scientific and assume the average case:  Either cloth and surgical can help, but cloth are only about half as good as surgical.
> 
> That’s what I did for personal use.  N95 for short term indoor, cloth for outdoors but in person, and try very hard to avoid long term indoor situations.
> 
> The cloth for outdoors is the weak point.  My guess is that the daily indoor prayer gatherings in Bangladesh placed a heavier burden on filtration, and therefore explain much of the difference between cloth and surgical.  But that is only a guess.  It may be that the next study shows that cloth are less effective even in outdoor settings, and I end up switching to surgical/N95 entirely.


You are vaccinated!....why at this point are you even wearing a cloth mask outdoors (yeah, I get it's "in person" but that presumably means picking up kiddo at the soccer field or while watching kiddo's game at scrimmage when not required)?
So you are wearing an N95 to the supermarket too?
And avoiding I assume all indoor dining, bars, airtravel, hotels again?

The n95 is an indication that you aren't doing this as a noble thing to control the virus (since this study you've weighted so much in seems to show surgical is sufficient for reducing the risk to others).  But that you are doing it because you yourself are scared of catching the virus (even having acknowledge in another post you probably will at some point)?

So what's your personal off ramp?  Assume Newsom loses the recall (yeah, I know unlikely) and it's not Meet Kevin and some R makes the mask mandates go largely away.  When do you go back to normal personally?  Because your behavior doesn't read like the science you've been defending....it reads like fear.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yet another writer who can’t get their head around confidence intervals.
> 
> The confidence interval for cloth was wide.  It included no effect.  It included the same reduction as surgical masks.
> 
> So, if you insist on the 95% CI, you have to say:
> 
> ”maybe cloth masks do nothing, and maybe they are every bit as good as surgical.  We still don’t know.”
> 
> That is not at all satisfying, but it is an accurate description of the CI.
> 
> Or, you can go non-scientific and assume the average case:  Either cloth and surgical can help, but cloth are only about half as good as surgical.
> 
> That’s what I did for personal use.  N95 for short term indoor, cloth for outdoors but in person, and try very hard to avoid long term indoor situations.
> 
> The cloth for outdoors is the weak point.  My guess is that the daily indoor prayer gatherings in Bangladesh placed a heavier burden on filtration, and therefore explain much of the difference between cloth and surgical.  But that is only a guess.  It may be that the next study shows that cloth are less effective even in outdoor settings, and I end up switching to surgical/N95 entirely.




“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”

― F. A. Hayek, The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You are vaccinated!....why at this point are you even wearing a cloth mask outdoors (yeah, I get it's "in person" but that presumably means picking up kiddo at the soccer field or while watching kiddo's game at scrimmage when not required)?
> So you are wearing an N95 to the supermarket too?
> And avoiding I assume all indoor dining, bars, airtravel, hotels again?
> 
> The n95 is an indication that you aren't doing this as a noble thing to control the virus (since this study you've weighted so much in seems to show surgical is sufficient for reducing the risk to others).  But that you are doing it because you yourself are scared of catching the virus (even having acknowledge in another post you probably will at some point)?
> 
> So what's your personal off ramp?  Assume Newsom loses the recall (yeah, I know unlikely) and it's not Meet Kevin and some R makes the mask mandates go largely away.  When do you go back to normal personally?  Because your behavior doesn't read like the science you've been defending....it reads like fear.


p.s. the only place I've used my N95 is an outbound flight through Texas on the way to vacation the Dakotas (didn't want the vacation to get ruined by one of us getting sick and having to quarantine).  But other than that, I wouldn't consider using an N95 for anything.  My folks...yeah they've used their N95s indoors but they are in their 80s and their risk now is about the same as mine was pre natural immunity/vaccination.  Unless you are somehow immunocompromised or just had kids very very late in life...wow man.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are vaccinated!....why at this point are you even wearing a cloth mask outdoors (yeah, I get it's "in person" but that presumably means picking up kiddo at the soccer field or while watching kiddo's game at scrimmage when not required)?
> So you are wearing an N95 to the supermarket too?
> And avoiding I assume all indoor dining, bars, airtravel, hotels again?
> 
> The n95 is an indication that you aren't doing this as a noble thing to control the virus (since this study you've weighted so much in seems to show surgical is sufficient for reducing the risk to others).  But that you are doing it because you yourself are scared of catching the virus (even having acknowledge in another post you probably will at some point)?
> 
> So what's your personal off ramp?  Assume Newsom loses the recall (yeah, I know unlikely) and it's not Meet Kevin and some R makes the mask mandates go largely away.  When do you go back to normal personally?  Because your behavior doesn't read like the science you've been defending....it reads like fear.


Given what we now know about delta, what are the odds that, if infected, I would spread covid to someone else?  Based on Martha’s Vineyard, R for vaccinated people is below 1, but not by much.  That is worth reducing, especially if the cost is only a mask.

To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Given what we now know about delta, what are the odds that, if infected, I would spread covid to someone else?  Based on Martha’s Vineyard, R for vaccinated people is below 1, but not by much.  That is worth reducing, especially if the cost is only a mask.
> 
> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


I get that part.  I take it at face value that you believe that, and even if I disagree with it, I respect your view.  That's not the part I'm questioning.  Had you said I wear a cloth mask when talking closely with someone outdoors or an N95 in high risk situations like a medical office, hospital or airplane, I'd say cool....here's a guy who practices what he preaches....I can at least admire that.

The parts that I'm questioning is the cloth mask outdoors (o.k. I can kind of see an argument here that even if you are on a soccer field despite what you've said before about cloth masks since they only do very little and can be reused you know why not if you want to be extra courteous to others) but more importantly the n95s in limited indoor situations (like markets).  You either believe the Bangladesh study or you don't.  You either believe masks work or they don't.  You either follow your version of the science or you don't.  The N95 at the supermarket is about protecting you....it's behavior which I'd expect from my at risk parents, not someone who says they are healthy.  That seems to indicate you are scared and afraid of catching it, because otherwise you'd be fine with the surgical and reserve the N95s for health care workers and people like my folks that need them.  I think you said you were back in the classroom too so presumably you are wearing the N95 there too.

Again, what's your off ramp then...when do you stop?  What's your personal test?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Given what we now know about delta, what are the odds that, if infected, I would spread covid to someone else?  Based on Martha’s Vineyard, R for vaccinated people is below 1, but not by much.  That is worth reducing, especially if the cost is only a mask.
> 
> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


Self righteousness is what makes one an asshole!

PS - I’m not implying you are an asshole


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Given what we now know about delta, what are the odds that, if infected, I would spread covid to someone else?  Based on Martha’s Vineyard, R for vaccinated people is below 1, but not by much.  That is worth reducing, especially if the cost is only a mask.
> 
> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


Apparently not.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I get that part.  I take it at face value that you believe that, and even if I disagree with it, I respect your view.  That's not the part I'm questioning.  Had you said I wear a cloth mask when talking closely with someone outdoors or an N95 in high risk situations like a medical office, hospital or airplane, I'd say cool....here's a guy who practices what he preaches....I can at least admire that.
> 
> The parts that I'm questioning is the cloth mask outdoors (o.k. I can kind of see an argument here that even if you are on a soccer field despite what you've said before about cloth masks since they only do very little and can be reused you know why not if you want to be extra courteous to others) but more importantly the n95s in limited indoor situations (like markets).  You either believe the Bangladesh study or you don't.  You either believe masks work or they don't.  You either follow your version of the science or you don't.  The N95 at the supermarket is about protecting you....it's behavior which I'd expect from my at risk parents, not someone who says they are healthy.  That seems to indicate you are scared and afraid of catching it, because otherwise you'd be fine with the surgical and reserve the N95s for health care workers and people like my folks that need them.  I think you said you were back in the classroom too so presumably you are wearing the N95 there too.
> 
> Again, what's your off ramp then...when do you stop?  What's your personal test?


It’s not boolean.  

I believe cloth masks work against the respiratory cone, but not against indoor ambient buildup.  I believe surgical masks work against both, but are only partly effective against indoor buildup.  I believe N95 are very effective against both, but hard to wear for long periods.

You can’t reduce this to “masks do or do not work”.  That is a ridiculous over simplification.  

“Save N95 for health care workers” is outdated.  Right now, I’d say “buy domestic N5 to keep US manufacturers in business.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It’s not boolean.
> 
> I believe cloth masks work against the respiratory cone, but not against indoor ambient buildup.  I believe surgical masks work against both, but are only partly effective against indoor buildup.  I believe N95 are very effective against both, but hard to wear for long periods.
> 
> You can’t reduce this to “masks do or do not work”.  That is a ridiculous over simplification.
> 
> “Save N95 for health care workers” is outdated.  Right now, I’d say “buy domestic N5 to keep US manufacturers in business.”




“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”

― F. A. Hayek, The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Self righteousness is what makes one an asshole!
> 
> PS - I’m not implying you are an asshole


Each of us has some set of things we do so that, when we look in the mirror, we like who we see.

That’s not self-righteousness.  It’s just each person finding their own path to being a decent human being.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s not boolean.
> 
> I believe cloth masks work against the respiratory cone, but not against indoor ambient buildup.  I believe surgical masks work against both, but are only partly effective against indoor buildup.  I believe N95 are very effective against both, but hard to wear for long periods.
> 
> You can’t reduce this to “masks do or do not work”.  That is a ridiculous over simplification.
> 
> “Save N95 for health care workers” is outdated.  Right now, I’d say “buy domestic N5 to keep US manufacturers in business.”


You are trying to rationalize the behavior.  You've said masks work....a surgical should be sufficient to protect others particuarly as you of all people are concerned about others enough not to go out if you feel unwell, are vaccinated, and get tested...an N95 is about trying to protect yourself.

You still can't buy an N95 easily on amazon.  You can get a KN95 but not an N95.  The few that are available are ridiculously priced at $30+ for a 20 pack.  By buying the N95 you are just driving up prices for those that need it since we aren't at price equilibrium yet where they are readily available and affordable to anyone who wants one.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You are trying to rationalize the behavior.  You've said masks work....a surgical should be sufficient to protect others particuarly as you of all people are concerned about others enough not to go out if you feel unwell, are vaccinated, and get tested...an N95 is about trying to protect yourself.
> 
> You still can't buy an N95 easily on amazon.  You can get a KN95 but not an N95.  The few that are available are ridiculously priced at $30+ for a 20 pack.  By buying the N95 you are just driving up prices for those that need it since we aren't at price equilibrium yet where they are readily available and affordable to anyone who wants one.


I'm just pointing out there's a disconnect between your behavior and what you say about the science.  They aren't aligned.  Either you are at it's a good idea for everyone to wear at KN or N 95 to prevent the spread, or you are at surgical masks work at it should be sufficient


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are trying to rationalize the behavior.  You've said masks work....a surgical should be sufficient to protect others particuarly as you of all people are concerned about others enough not to go out if you feel unwell, are vaccinated, and get tested...an N95 is about trying to protect yourself.
> 
> You still can't buy an N95 easily on amazon.  You can get a KN95 but not an N95.  The few that are available are ridiculously priced at $30+ for a 20 pack.  By buying the N95 you are just driving up prices for those that need it since we aren't at price equilibrium yet where they are readily available and affordable to anyone who wants one.


Demetech has plenty of N95 masks for sale.









						N95 Respirator Masks
					






					shop.demetech.us
				




Made in USA.   

More expensive than the Chinese ones, but I don’t really trust China to help us out during the next crisis.  I’d rather pay extra and help an American.


----------



## Grace T.

It was only a matter of time, but some in the prolockdowners are back to mask outdoors for everyone.  as I said, they were never going to stop at just mask indoors.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435985562918346757


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Demetech has plenty of N95 masks for sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N95 Respirator Masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shop.demetech.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made in USA.
> 
> More expensive than the Chinese ones, but I don’t really trust China to help us out during the next crisis.  I’d rather pay extra and help an American.


Ouch...$75 for a box of 20 hybrid N95s/Kn95...over $85 for a real N95?!?!?.  Again you miss the point.  If you are concerned about other people, you'd forgo driving up the price for these for people that actually need them.  There's plenty of market from the governments and hospitals using them to keep the manufacturers afloat.  The n95 is about you.  It's not about you caring about other people since you are a low risk spreader and N95s are more about protecting yourself.  You either believe the surgicals work (in which case you are a prime candidate for them) or you don't.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> That’s what I did for personal use. N95 for short term indoor, cloth for outdoors but in person, and try very hard to avoid long term indoor situations.


As you said a couple of months ago you have a phobia. 

The above sentence highlights your phobia.

Based on what you have posted here over the  months...

You are fairly young
You are fairly healthy
You are vaxxed. 

So that combo of factors means you don't need to be paranoid. You don't need to run around wearing masks. You are fine and will be fine.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> ....it reads like fear.


I don't know if you read one of his posts...but in a moment of clarity he admitted he had a phobia about covid. 

I know you don't need to look up what people do when they have phobias.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ouch...$75 for a box of 20 hybrid N95s/Kn95...over $85 for a real N95?!?!?.  Again you miss the point.  If you are concerned about other people, you'd forgo driving up the price for these for people that actually need them.  There's plenty of market from the governments and hospitals using them to keep the manufacturers afloat.  The n95 is about you.  It's not about you caring about other people since you are a low risk spreader and N95s are more about protecting yourself.  You either believe the surgicals work (in which case you are a prime candidate for them) or you don't.


You'd rather buy all our PPE from China?

When President Pooh-Bear eventually releases a bioweapon on purpose, I don't he's going to be willing to allow PPE exports.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> As you said a couple of months ago you have a phobia.
> 
> The above sentence highlights your phobia.
> 
> Based on what you have posted here over the  months...
> 
> You are fairly young
> You are fairly healthy
> You are vaxxed.
> 
> So that combo of factors means you don't need to be paranoid. You don't need to run around wearing masks. You are fine and will be fine.


At a minimum not an N95.  Everything else can be explained away with effort but not that, at least not if you believe surgical masks actually work.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You'd rather buy all our PPE from China?
> 
> When President Pooh-Bear eventually releases a bioweapon on purpose, I don't he's going to be willing to allow PPE exports.


I agree with you the US should going forward have a PPE subsidy for manufacturers going forward.  You and I agreed that it would have been a good idea to do that at the start.  At the current time, though, price equilibrium has not been reached (not at $80) and the masks aren't readily available to everyone that wants one (only the well off willing to pay a premium for them).

But again you don't get to build the world you wish existed...you can only behave in reaction to this world.  You are courteous (you wouldn't go out sick), you are vaccinated, you are tested.  You are very low risk to infect others through asymptomatic spread.  The N95s right now primarily serve the function of protecting you...the studies you cite say surgicals are good to protecting others...one more N95 mask out there doesn't do a whole lot to protect a supermarket, especially someone who is as courteous as you.  What it does do it drives the price up for people that actually need them.

When you can go out and buy a 40 pack of N95s for $20 on Amazon through a large retailer (instead of a hoarder) like I did prepandemic, have at it.  Otherwise you are just being selfish when others need those more.  Should you be able to get one including a US manufacturer?  Yes, I agree you should, but we aren't in that world.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.





dad4 said:


> *Masks reduce the probability of transmission.  That’s all.  They do not come close to eliminating transmission.*


Well, well, well my little whirling dervish.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


Bill Gates finally realises that lockdown hurts children A major advocate for social distancing is having second thoughts


Other bleak predictions from UNICEF’s March 2020 report are now becoming visible. A UNICEF report back in January found that more than 39 billion in-school meals have been missed globally since the start of the Covid-19. A July report in South Africa’s _Business Day_ found that half a million fewer children were in school than a year before. A World Bank study found that Covid-19 school lockdowns had increased dropouts across the board in Nigeria, especially in the 15-18 age group, increasing child marriage and child labour rates dramatically. And these impacts are not limited to poor countries — a recent study found that in the US, poor and minority children were much less likely to have had in-person lessons last year.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


When the strictest lockdown to date was imposed in Ho Chi Minh City, Tran Thi Hao*, a factory worker, was told that the government would keep her and her family well fed – but for two months they have eaten little more than rice and fish sauce.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/08/hunger-was-something-we-read-about-lockdown-leaves-vietnams-poor-without-food


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> To me, masking up and getting vaccinated are not about being noble.  Masking up and getting vaccinated are the bare minimum for not being an asshole.


In this whole period, we reverted to premodern thinking and practices. Intelligent, charming, wonderful societies like Australia and New Zealand have become prison states. Countries that hung in the balance have become full dictatorships. Countries that gave birth to civilization itself have dabbled in the barbarism we associate with the ancient world. *There’s a lot of talk about science these days but what has happened to us belongs to a pre-scientific age – and that is precisely what the New York Times urged on February 27, 2020, when its leading virus reporters demanded that we “go full Medieval” to address Covid-19.*


----------



## Grace T.

Derp......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436049278020067328


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Derp......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436049278020067328


While I think congress would have the arguable right to do this under the ICC, I'm truly curious what the legal basis of this executive order is.  If the President is capable of doing this, there really is no limit to his executive order power.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I agree with you the US should going forward have a PPE subsidy for manufacturers going forward.  You and I agreed that it would have been a good idea to do that at the start.  At the current time, though, price equilibrium has not been reached (not at $80) and the masks aren't readily available to everyone that wants one (only the well off willing to pay a premium for them).
> 
> *But again you don't get to build the world you wish existed.*..you can only behave in reaction to this world.  You are courteous (you wouldn't go out sick), you are vaccinated, you are tested.  You are very low risk to infect others through asymptomatic spread.  The N95s right now primarily serve the function of protecting you...the studies you cite say surgicals are good to protecting others...one more N95 mask out there doesn't do a whole lot to protect a supermarket, especially someone who is as courteous as you.  What it does do it drives the price up for people that actually need them.
> 
> When you can go out and buy a 40 pack of N95s for $20 on Amazon through a large retailer (instead of a hoarder) like I did prepandemic, have at it.  Otherwise you are just being selfish when others need those more.  Should you be able to get one including a US manufacturer?  Yes, I agree you should, but we aren't in that world.


Of course I get to help build the world I wish existed.  Which other world would I help build?

If you are busy building a world you don’t want to live in, think about it.  Why would you do that?


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> Other bleak predictions from


On the bright side the teachers unions have helped make the best case EVER for school choice.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Derp......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436049278020067328


Seems to me I was going around just a day or so ago with someone else here who was saying there is no full press on vaccine mandates. 

My how things change in 48 hours. 

Bueller? Bueller...would you like to pop your head up again and revisit our talk?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Of course I get to help build the world I wish existed.  Which other world would I help build?
> 
> If you are busy building a world you don’t want to live in, think about it.  Why would you do that?


I assume this means you think everyone should wear an N95 mask in an indoor situation? If so, I've moved you a little bit at least so now we are on the same page of what works and what doesn't.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> While I think congress would have the arguable right to do this under the ICC, I'm truly curious what the legal basis of this executive order is.  If the President is capable of doing this, there really is no limit to his executive order power.


It is a problem. We have been going in this direction some time. 

There is a reason we have separation of powers. We did not create our system to have the Prez just make laws/mandates like this.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Seems to me I was going around just a day or so ago with someone else here who was saying there is no full press on vaccine mandates.
> 
> My how things change in 48 hours.
> 
> Bueller? Bueller...would you like to pop your head up again and revisit our talk?


I've been seeing the legal rationales go through my twitter feed.  It's beyond my admin law expertise.  1) it really though is a broader reach than anyone has ever applied to EO powers, healthcare or otherwise, 2) the courts have become skeptical of these overreaches (whether by Trump or Biden), and 3) the antilockdowners all seem to be willing to bet large sums of cash it doesn't survive judicial review.  Whether it does or not would require a deep dive on my part way beyond the current time I have...


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> On the bright side the teachers unions have helped make the best case EVER for school choice.


The teacher's unions seem to have hoisted on their own petards with Biden's vaccination mandate.


----------



## Grace T.

Ha ha....I just thought of this too....the larger soccer clubs around the nation will have their employees caught by Biden's vaccine mandate too.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Ha ha....I just thought of this too....the larger soccer clubs around the nation will have their employees caught by Biden's vaccine mandate too.


You have to imagine there will be a LARGE pushback against this overreach.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> Derp......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436049278020067328


That’s only one part of the Six Point plan Biden is speaking about shortly.  Guess I’ll have to wait a hour or so for the other five.

"Some of that will be related to access to testing, some will be related to mandates, some will be related to how we ensure kids are protected in schools."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Of course I get to help build the world I wish existed.  Which other world would I help build?


A zero virus world.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> That’s only one part of the Six Point plan Biden is speaking about shortly.  Guess I’ll have to wait a hour or so for the other five.
> 
> "Some of that will be related to access to testing, some will be related to mandates, some will be related to how we ensure kids are protected in schools."


One of them is the boosters (which he got in front the FDA on and caused those resignations).  Question: Will we be required to take the boosters even if we come down ill with COVID post vaccination per the employers over 100 rule?

Another one is testing kids in schools (rumored to be for both vaxxed and unvaxxed)....that's a more a school closure mandate than a school open plan since kids will come down with cases causing quarantines as we are already seeing in some parts of the country.

Another rumor is the mandate for kids over 16 in schools but this rumor isn't very credible so far.


----------



## Desert Hound

N00B said:


> some will be related to how we ensure kids are protected in schools."


Are they not protected now? 

Does ANYONE look at the data?

We don't need any master plan to protect them because they have no issues with the virus.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I've been seeing the legal rationales go through my twitter feed.  It's beyond my admin law expertise.  1) it really though is a broader reach than anyone has ever applied to EO powers, healthcare or otherwise, 2) the courts have become skeptical of these overreaches (whether by Trump or Biden), and 3) the antilockdowners all seem to be willing to bet large sums of cash it doesn't survive judicial review.  Whether it does or not would require a deep dive on my part way beyond the current time I have...


Well...there goes the first lawsuit already....Daily Wire (the Ben Shapiro company IIRC).


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Well...there goes the first lawsuit already....Daily Wire (the Ben Shapiro company IIRC).


They obviously can't file it until the rule is promolgated but they've vowed to file on day 1 and are already gearing up counsel.

The other big headache will be for manufacturers.  White collar workers are a lot less fungible....it's harder to move positions and a physical move is sometimes required and there's large support for vaccines anyway.  Big union jobs like auto plans and schools are harder because a lot of the employers are captured by the same rules.  But low tech manufacturing jobs will be a problem...expect to exacerbate the labor shortage esp. since these workers are right in the target of the vaccine uptake issue.


----------



## crush

Joe means business.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The teacher's unions seem to have hoisted on their own petards with Biden's vaccination mandate.


Ha, spoke to soon.  The enforcement mechanism is through OSHA.  OSHA does not have enforcement over state and local governments....so teachers don't have to get vaccinated, but if you work for a large employer you will have to.  Public school teachers are exempt....too funny.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I get that part.  I take it at face value that you believe that, and even if I disagree with it, I respect your view.  That's not the part I'm questioning.  Had you said I wear a cloth mask when talking closely with someone outdoors or an N95 in high risk situations like a medical office, hospital or airplane, I'd say cool....here's a guy who practices what he preaches....I can at least admire that.
> 
> The parts that I'm questioning is the cloth mask outdoors (o.k. I can kind of see an argument here that even if you are on a soccer field despite what you've said before about cloth masks since they only do very little and can be reused you know why not if you want to be extra courteous to others) but more importantly the n95s in limited indoor situations (like markets).  You either believe the Bangladesh study or you don't.  You either believe masks work or they don't.  You either follow your version of the science or you don't.  The N95 at the supermarket is about protecting you....it's behavior which I'd expect from my at risk parents, not someone who says they are healthy.  That seems to indicate you are scared and afraid of catching it, because otherwise you'd be fine with the surgical and reserve the N95s for health care workers and people like my folks that need them.  I think you said you were back in the classroom too so presumably you are wearing the N95 there too.
> 
> Again, what's your off ramp then...when do you stop?  What's your personal test?


Nature doesn't care what you believe.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It was only a matter of time, but some in the prolockdowners are back to mask outdoors for everyone.  as I said, they were never going to stop at just mask indoors.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435985562918346757


Strawman.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Ouch...$75 for a box of 20 hybrid N95s/Kn95...over $85 for a real N95?!?!?.  Again you miss the point.  If you are concerned about other people, you'd forgo driving up the price for these for people that actually need them.  There's plenty of market from the governments and hospitals using them to keep the manufacturers afloat.  The n95 is about you.  It's not about you caring about other people since you are a low risk spreader and N95s are more about protecting yourself.  You either believe the surgicals work (in which case you are a prime candidate for them) or you don't.


"...driving up the price..."?  Strawman.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Strawman.


Last I checked whoopi goldberg is an actual person (one with a big platform on a national television show) and is in fact complaining about people not wearing a mask outside so no that is not a straw man.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Ha, spoke to soon.  The enforcement mechanism is through OSHA.  OSHA does not have enforcement over state and local governments....so teachers don't have to get vaccinated, but if you work for a large employer you will have to.  Public school teachers are exempt....too funny.


So the virus is so scary....

That the kids who dont need it need to have restrictions placed on them. 

But the adults who teach them need not have a mandate. 

Gov to the rescue.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "...driving up the price..."?  Strawman.


Either: a) you don't understand the principles of basic economics, or b) you are just doing comedy now.  I hope it's the latter, but I suspect its the former.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> "...driving up the price..."?  Strawman.


More like grasping at straws.  

Once you admit that there is a factor of 2 price difference, you have conceded that the market is segregated.  That is, low end prices have already decoupled from activity in the top half of the market.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> More like grasping at straws.
> 
> Once you admit that there is a factor of 2 price difference, you have conceded that the market is segregated.  That is, low end prices have already decoupled from activity in the top half of the market.



Errr....that only applies if price equilibrium has been achieved....that the supply curve has caught up to the demand curve.  It also assumes a Chinese N95 mask and a US made N95 aren't fungible (so the US mask is a luxury good, effectively).  We know that's not the case because you can't get one easily yet on Amazon....there is still a supply shortage for those that need them.  Again, you are trying to rationalize away behavior which in light of your prior expressed scientific beliefs doesn't jive.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr....that only applies if price equilibrium has been achieved....that the supply curve has caught up to the demand curve.  It also assumes a Chinese N95 mask and a US made N95 aren't fungible (so the US mask is a luxury good, effectively).  We know that's not the case because you can't get one easily yet on Amazon....there is still a supply shortage for those that need them.  Again, you are trying to rationalize away behavior which in light of your prior expressed scientific beliefs doesn't jive.


Who is it that is driving up the price?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Who is it that is driving up the price?


You are going to have me give you now a basic economics class?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are going to have me give you now a basic economics class?


Econ class?  I don’t think you’re qualified.  You just tried to convince me that the existence of substitute goods depends on whether prices have achieved long term stability.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Econ class?  I don’t think you’re qualified.  You just tried to convince me that the existence of substitute goods depends on whether prices have achieved long term stability.


When did I say long term? The fact that there are shortage still indicates the price has not stabilized yet. 

You are also coupling the 2 (when they should be separate issues).  The substitute goods portion was a construct you made between US & Chinese masks.  That assumes the 2 are in fact two different markets when the supply of each is clearly fungible.  You are building an illusion to try and justify your behavior.


----------



## Grace T.

Haha...postal workers (a huge chunk of the federal workforce) not included in the federal employees order.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You are going to have me give you now a basic economics class?


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Haha...postal workers (a huge chunk of the federal workforce) not included in the federal employees order.


Why the "haha"?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


You didn't answer mine.



espola said:


> Why the "haha"?


 Because we are "all in this together"....didn't you hear him?


----------



## Grace T.

This goes farther than what Trump ever did....he didn't threaten NY/California for not reopening.  It's a dangerous escalation....the only thing holding the entire thing together at this point is federalism with leaves kind of a safety valve for liberals/conservatives and lockdowners/antilockdowners to go their own way.  From the reaction on conservative twitter they are pretty much finished...finished with dialogue, finished with listening, finished with Biden....it's a dangerous turning point since no doubt it will serve as precedent on other issues.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436078537648312322


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> This goes farther than what Trump ever did....he didn't threaten NY/California for not reopening.  It's a dangerous escalation....the only thing holding the entire thing together at this point is federalism with leaves kind of a safety valve for liberals/conservatives and lockdowners/antilockdowners to go their own way.  From the reaction on conservative twitter they are pretty much finished...finished with dialogue, finished with listening, finished with Biden....it's a dangerous turning point since no doubt it will serve as precedent on other issues.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436078537648312322


i have a bad feeling about all this.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You didn't answer mine.
> 
> 
> Because we are "all in this together"....didn't you hear him?


You're just wandering away from the topics at hand.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This goes farther than what Trump ever did....he didn't threaten NY/California for not reopening.  It's a dangerous escalation....the only thing holding the entire thing together at this point is federalism with leaves kind of a safety valve for liberals/conservatives and lockdowners/antilockdowners to go their own way.  From the reaction on conservative twitter they are pretty much finished...finished with dialogue, finished with listening, finished with Biden....it's a dangerous turning point since no doubt it will serve as precedent on other issues.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436078537648312322


Are you panicking?  Looks like you are panicking.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> i have a bad feeling about all this.


I do too.  I understand politically why he did it: it's a gamble we don't have a bad winter wave and with the delta coming down he can claim credit (if we do have a winter wave, the hedge will be the courts struck it down and Rs didn't listen)....the public will generally support it (those in the lockdown camp will like it and the generally cautious 1/3 will break mostly towards him)....it gets Afghanistan off his back.

But it's a declaration of war against conservative principles (rule by democracy not EO, the ICC, federalism, personal autonomy).   If the courts strike it all down quickly, maybe its salvegable.  He had to climb down on the boosters after all.  But seriously, if Trump had done something like this and gotten away with it in reverse it would be the end of the Republic.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> *i have a bad feeling about all this.*


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Are you panicking?  Looks like you are panicking.


Kicking's quote captures the mood...."I have a bad feeling about this".


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're just wandering away from the topics at hand.


you are covering your ignorance.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I do too.  I understand politically why he did it: it's a gamble we don't have a bad winter wave and with the delta coming down he can claim credit (if we do have a winter wave, the hedge will be the courts struck it down and Rs didn't listen)....the public will generally support it (those in the lockdown camp will like it and the generally cautious 1/3 will break mostly towards him)....it gets Afghanistan off his back.
> 
> But it's a declaration of war against conservative principles (rule by democracy not EO, the ICC, federalism, personal autonomy).   If the courts strike it all down quickly, maybe its salvegable.  He had to climb down on the boosters after all.  But seriously, if Trump had done something like this and gotten away with it in reverse it would be the end of the Republic.


It's not always politics.  Sometimes it's just common sense.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> View attachment 11613


You needed a star wars picture....B for effort.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> you are covering your ignorance.


It's hard to respond when you just wander away when the questions are hard.  Did that work in law school?


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436100367171809309


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's hard to respond when you just wander away when the questions are hard.  Did that work in law school?


That's funny Magoo....I wander.....pot/kettle.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's funny Magoo....I wander.....pot/kettle.


I'll give you another chance for a straight answer -- who is it that is driving up the price?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'll give you another chance for a straight answer -- who is it that is driving up the price?


And I'll give you the same answer: do I need to give you a basic class in economics?....because that's too much work (so pass) and without a basic understanding you won't understand.

If I don't need to give you a basic economics class, we'll approach this socratically.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> And I'll give you the same answer: do I need to give you a basic class in economics?....because that's too much work (so pass) and without a basic understanding you won't understand.
> 
> If I don't need to give you a basic economics class, we'll approach this socratically.


You don't know who?  Or are you worried about looking Izzy-like in your response about economics?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You don't know who?  Or are you worried about looking Izzy-like in your response about economics?


I'll take that as a no, you don't understand basic economics.  Take a night or online course.  We'll discuss when you finish.  Otherwise, not worth it to me.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'll take that as a no, you don't understand basic economics.  Take a night or online course.  We'll discuss when you finish.  Otherwise, not worth it to me.


We don't need an economics lesson for you to explain your own post.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> We don't need an economics lesson for you to explain your own post.


Again you decline to state you understand the basics of economics.  I’m not going to teach it to you.

this doesn’t surprise me since you don’t seem to understand two yellows equal a red yet you are on a soccer forum


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> It's not always politics.  Sometimes it's just common sense.


What someone considers common sense still doesn't mean the Prez can unilaterally do something like this.


----------



## Grace T.

The reaction from r governors, the r leadership, the rank and file, the taking heads has been brutal. Almost all the r governors and several over 100 employee r sympathetic employers have vowed legal actions. If the rs weren’t confident in the Supreme Court limiting this I have no doubt we’d be in a constitutional crisis right now. Maybe that’s the point….maybe Biden thinks it’s easy to pick this fight and distract from Afghanistan if the courts will strike it down…but the way it was crafted was careful…it’s not as easy of a strike down as the rs think.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> What someone considers common sense still doesn't mean the Prez can unilaterally do something like this.


You are absolutely right about this. It isn’t just a pro vaxx v anti vaxx issue.  Many of the most offended are people who are already vaxxed

-it’s mandate v no mandate (esp after the cdc director fauci and psaki are all on record 2 months ago saying no such mandate
-the scope of interstate commerce clause
-the extent to which congress has delegated rule making to the bureaucracy 
-the scope of executive orders and the unfortunate tendency for presidents to over rely on them
-federalism

it’s existential for the rs. It’s precedent setting (if this is ok what of rule by climate change). It goes to the very nature of how many rs view tyranny. It’s the whole ball of wax.  I hope Biden understood that before picking this fight but given his state I doubt it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again you decline to state you understand the basics of economics.  I’m not going to teach it to you.
> 
> this doesn’t surprise me since you don’t seem to understand two yellows equal a red yet you are on a soccer forum


I understand the basics of economics.  Do you understand how to answer a simple question?  (I think that is taught in English classes)


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> What someone considers common sense still doesn't mean the Prez can unilaterally do something like this.


Which of the many things he is doing do you think he cannot do?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You are absolutely right about this. It isn’t just a pro vaxx v anti vaxx issue.  Many of the most offended are people who are already vaxxed
> 
> -it’s mandate v no mandate (esp after the cdc director fauci and psaki are all on record 2 months ago saying no such mandate
> -the scope of interstate commerce clause
> -the extent to which congress has delegated rule making to the bureaucracy
> -the scope of executive orders and the unfortunate tendency for presidents to over rely on them
> -federalism
> 
> it’s existential for the rs. It’s precedent setting (if this is ok what of rule by climate change). It goes to the very nature of how many rs view tyranny. It’s the whole ball of wax.  I hope Biden understood that before picking this fight but given his state I doubt it.


"Many of the most offended are people who are already vaxxed"  -- What is your basis for that statement?


----------



## dad4

The vaccine mandates mostly just reflect the mood of the country.

The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.

Expect more of this as time goes on.  People want normal, and universal vaccination helps us get there.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr....that only applies if price equilibrium has been achieved....that the supply curve has caught up to the demand curve.  It also assumes a Chinese N95 mask and a US made N95 aren't fungible (so the US mask is a luxury good, effectively).  We know that's not the case because you can't get one easily yet on Amazon....there is still a supply shortage for those that need them.  Again, you are trying to rationalize away behavior which in light of your prior expressed scientific beliefs doesn't jive.


Amazon has at least one whole page of N95 masks, with delivery estimated tomorrow or next Tuesday at the latest.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Nature doesn't care what you believe.


…..but get vaxxed, wear your mask, social distance, etc., etc.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The vaccine mandates mostly just reflect the mood of the country.
> 
> The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.
> 
> Expect more of this as time goes on.  People want normal, and universal vaccination helps us get there.


Coocoo


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Many of the most offended are people who are already vaxxed"  -- What is your basis for that statement?


I’m watching the Twitter feed. Page after page of vaxxed people (including all the r govs I believe) decrying this


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The vaccine mandates mostly just reflect the mood of the country.
> 
> The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.
> 
> Expect more of this as time goes on.  People want normal, and universal vaccination helps us get there.


a.  He’s turned most of the vaxxed rs against him (everyone from guy benson to Ben Shapiro and all the r governors) into the same camp as the antivaxxers because they care more about the constitutional principles they feel are under attack than whether someone is vaxxed or not.
b.  Just because something you think something is good policy doesn’t give you an excuse to blow up legalities or at the minimum norms. He’s touched the third rail all but declaring war on republicans nearest and dearest principles. If the rs didn’t control the courts we would be in a full blown constitutional crisis right now.
c. You aren’t going to convince the die hard holdouts this way some of which are some of the d core constituencies. Expecting more of this kind of stuff means eventually heading to violence which is what people do when backed into a corner.
d. Wait til we get to kids.
E. If trump had forced California and ny to open there would have been war


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I understand the basics of economics.  Do you understand how to answer a simple question?  (I think that is taught in English classes)


I told you we’d do this socratically…so you’ve taken the basics of Econ 101 and at a minimum understand the mechanisms of supply and demand, correct?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Amazon has at least one whole page of N95 masks, with delivery estimated tomorrow or next Tuesday at the latest.


you don’t think I looked?  On the first page, most of them are kn95s or not true n95s.  The remainder are almost all overwhelmingly from small sellers. There were 3 that were certified from large sellers…one had a valve and therefore is useless for use in places with mandates…one of which was eligible for prime…it’s the subpar Chinese design dad4 complained about but is repped as certified….it’s $50+ for a carton of 20. Pre pandemic I got my carton of 40 for $35 and that was when savy buyers had already started buying up the market.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a.  He’s turned most of the vaxxed rs against him (everyone from guy benson to Ben Shapiro and all the r governors) into the same camp as the antivaxxers because they care more about the constitutional principles they feel are under attack than whether someone is vaxxed or not.
> b.  Just because something you think something is good policy doesn’t give you an excuse to blow up legalities or at the minimum norms. He’s touched the third rail all but declaring war on republicans nearest and dearest principles. If the rs didn’t control the courts we would be in a full blown constitutional crisis right now.
> c. You aren’t going to convince the die hard holdouts this way some of which are some of the d core constituencies. Expecting more of this kind of stuff means eventually heading to violence which is what people do when backed into a corner.
> d. Wait til we get to kids.
> E. If trump had forced California and ny to open there would have been war


War.

You think the country is going to rise up in arms to defend your right to skip weekly covid testing?

Riiiiiight.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> War.
> 
> You think the country is going to rise up in arms to defend your right to skip weekly covid testing?
> 
> Riiiiiight.


Then you are clueless about the issue. The issue isn’t vaxx or unvaxxed. It’s now beyond that. The issue is the core Republican beliefs about the constitution including: the supremacy of the legislature, limited rules making by the bureaucracy, a limited power to issue executive decrees, federalism and state sovereignty and limited ICc. This isn’t about vaxxed or not vaxxed to rs anymore…it’s about the constitution…and that makes it existential.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> you don’t think I looked?  On the first page, most of them are kn95s or not true n95s.  The remainder are almost all overwhelmingly from small sellers. There were 3 that were certified from large sellers…one had a valve and therefore is useless for use in places with mandates…one of which was eligible for prime…it’s the subpar Chinese design dad4 complained about but is repped as certified….it’s $50+ for a carton of 20. Pre pandemic I got my carton of 40 for $35 and that was when savy buyers had already started buying up the market.


Here you go.  A list of domestic manufacturers who would be happy to ship you a box of N95 masks.









						Looking for Made in USA N95 Masks? Here Are 10+ American-Made Options - Alliance for American Manufacturing
					

Most companies are still prioritizing getting respirator masks to healthcare and other essential workers, but some are offering small quantities for public sale.




					www.americanmanufacturing.org
				




Now you can stop complaining that it's hard to find good masks.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Here you go.  A list of domestic manufacturers who would be happy to ship you a box of N95 masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for Made in USA N95 Masks? Here Are 10+ American-Made Options - Alliance for American Manufacturing
> 
> 
> Most companies are still prioritizing getting respirator masks to healthcare and other essential workers, but some are offering small quantities for public sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.americanmanufacturing.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you can stop complaining that it's hard to find good masks.


Haha…you didn’t even read your own thumbnail. “Most companies are still prioritizing getting respirator masks to health care workers and other essential workers but some are offering small quantities for public sale”. And that’s before you even get to the inflated prices.  You stepped in your own poop this time. By a low risk person buying up n95 masks you are making the situation harder on others that need it…you are bending over backwards to justify your own selfishness

I’m sorry but that’s an own goal of epic proportions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Haha…you didn’t even read your own thumbnail. “Most companies are still prioritizing getting respirator masks to health care workers and other essential workers but some are offering small quantities for public sale”. And that’s before you even get to the inflated prices.  You stepped in your own poop this time. By a low risk person buying up n95 masks you are making the situation harder on others that need it…you are bending over backwards to justify your own selfishness
> 
> I’m sorry but that’s an own goal of epic proportions.


Check the pub date on the article.  Your N95 shortage claim is several months out of date.

I found my supplier from the more recent NYT article on domestic manufacturers having trouble finding customers.  Shortage was over by then.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m watching the Twitter feed. Page after page of vaxxed people (including all the r govs I believe) decrying this


You're watching a biased feed.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a.  He’s turned most of the vaxxed rs against him (everyone from guy benson to Ben Shapiro and all the r governors) into the same camp as the antivaxxers because they care more about the constitutional principles they feel are under attack than whether someone is vaxxed or not.
> b.  Just because something you think something is good policy doesn’t give you an excuse to blow up legalities or at the minimum norms. He’s touched the third rail all but declaring war on republicans nearest and dearest principles. If the rs didn’t control the courts we would be in a full blown constitutional crisis right now.
> c. You aren’t going to convince the die hard holdouts this way some of which are some of the d core constituencies. Expecting more of this kind of stuff means eventually heading to violence which is what people do when backed into a corner.
> d. Wait til we get to kids.
> E. If trump had forced California and ny to open there would have been war


Just making shit up again?  Does it  make you feel better?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I told you we’d do this socratically…so you’ve taken the basics of Econ 101 and at a minimum understand the mechanisms of supply and demand, correct?


Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering a simple question?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> you don’t think I looked?  On the first page, most of them are kn95s or not true n95s.  The remainder are almost all overwhelmingly from small sellers. There were 3 that were certified from large sellers…one had a valve and therefore is useless for use in places with mandates…one of which was eligible for prime…it’s the subpar Chinese design dad4 complained about but is repped as certified….it’s $50+ for a carton of 20. Pre pandemic I got my carton of 40 for $35 and that was when savy buyers had already started buying up the market.


Are we going to do a "no true Scotsman" episode now?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Then you are clueless about the issue. The issue isn’t vaxx or unvaxxed. It’s now beyond that. The issue is the core Republican beliefs about the constitution including: the supremacy of the legislature, limited rules making by the bureaucracy, a limited power to issue executive decrees, federalism and state sovereignty and limited ICc. This isn’t about vaxxed or not vaxxed to rs anymore…it’s about the constitution…and that makes it existential.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Check the pub date on the article.  Your N95 shortage claim is several months out of date.
> 
> I found my supplier from the more recent NYT article on domestic manufacturers having trouble finding customers.  Shortage was over by then.


You were the one that posted it. Why’d you post it if it’s out of date?  At least you’ve moved off the silly two markets idea…if the prices are still at the levels reflected in what you posted earlier and on the Amazon pages, then no the shortage is not over because as you know the price is tied into both supply and demand and the price (unlike surgical) does not reflect that


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Are we going to do a "no true Scotsman" episode now?


It’s either certified or not and dad brought up the cheap Chinese masks


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


I see we are doing to hits now:

“oh Magoo, you handsome chap, you’ve done it yet again”


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Just making shit up again?  Does it  make you feel better?


You are back to lying again?  Make you feel better?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Haha…you didn’t even read your own thumbnail. “Most companies are still prioritizing getting respirator masks to health care workers and other essential workers but some are offering small quantities for public sale”. And that’s before you even get to the inflated prices.  You stepped in your own poop this time. By a low risk person buying up n95 masks you are making the situation harder on others that need it…you are bending over backwards to justify your own selfishness
> 
> I’m sorry but that’s an own goal of epic proportions.


The article clearly describes companies having trouble finding customers.

"But at the same time, several American manufacturers of N95 masks – including startup companies that launched specifically to address these shortages – are saying they can’t find buyers."

This is, what?  Twice in three days that you have reversed the meaning of an article by summarizing it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The article clearly describes companies having trouble finding customers.
> 
> "But at the same time, several American manufacturers of N95 masks – including startup companies that launched specifically to address these shortages – are saying they can’t find buyers."
> 
> This is, what?  Twice in three days that you have reversed the meaning of an article by summarizing it.


I didn’t summarize it. It’s in the thumbnail you posted. Which is hilarious.  Just admit you have egg on your face and move on


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're watching a biased feed.


No. My feed is very wide and contains a wide array of opinions from the nation and guardian to the daily caller. I’m telling you I’m seeing on the admittedly biased r portion of my Twitter feed ranging from squishy guy benson to hard core Laura Ingraham and it’s as big an outrage as when the ds went off on trump for supporting the confederate statue protests. As there, it’s existential


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering a simple question?


You don’t get to dictate the method. If you want to play answer the question. I told you we’d do this socratically.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You don’t get to dictate the method. If you want to play answer the question. I told you we’d do this socratically.


How generous of you.

Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How generous of you.
> 
> Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


If you want to play answer the question. We’re doing this socratically.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> If you want to play answer the question. We’re doing this socratically.


The Socratic method involves a dialogue, which implies two or more participants.  It's not a dialogue if only one person is speaking.

Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The Socratic method involves a dialogue, which implies two or more participants.  It's not a dialogue if only one person is speaking.
> 
> Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


No you asked a question.  I told you I’m not willing to educate you on basic economics. I told you if you knew the basics I’d proceed to answer you (or better said get you to answer) through the Socratic method.  I then asked you the first in a series of questions to get at your answer which you declined to take up which leads me to confirm you aren’t really honestly looking for an answer to your question in good faith.  Thanks for playing. Have been more than patient with you.

Ps in the height of your arrogance and ignorance you are trying to tell someone who has taught law school classes in the Socratic method what is the Socratic method. Funny.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> No you asked a question.  I told you I’m not willing to educate you on basic economics. I told you if you knew the basics I’d proceed to answer you (or better said get you to answer) through the Socratic method.  I then asked you the first in a series of questions to get at your answer which you declined to take up which leads me to confirm you aren’t really honestly looking for an answer to your question in good faith.  Thanks for playing. Have been more than patient with you.
> 
> Ps in the height of your arrogance and ignorance you are trying to tell someone who has taught law school classes in the Socratic method what is the Socratic method. Funny.


Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Who is it that is driving up the cost of N95 masks?


And we are back to square 1…..  typical.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> And we are back to square 1…..  typical.


If you don't know the answer, just say so.  There is no point in hiding behind sophomoric tactics.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> View attachment 11613









crush said:


> View attachment 11613


"I fought the law, and the law won".


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.
> People want normal*((Elitist assholes like you))*, and universal vaccination helps us get there.*


Poor little baby dad is being held hostage to all the NORMAL things in life is supposed to give but because of crush dad is a hostage.  Look, you/we could have saved everyone caught in the middle of this mess if we just fought it out man to man a while ago. Instead, you and your crew lied, cheated & made a Bat/Human/Dog cocktail in a lab in Wuhan with the set purpose of injecting IT into all the human blood streams in the world.  WTF anyone put that shit in their blood so damn fast is still a big mystery to this moron.  I knew dudes with Phd running to get first in line and now their sick and depressed.  I'm staying in the woods so I dont get blamed for getting someone who got the two jabs already sick again.  I have now been called, Moron, Drunk driver, schmuck, hostage taker, t supporter, white racist, rebellious, anti vaxxer, anti abortionist and a God fearing Jesus freak.  I must be very dangerous to so many of the Elitist like you.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I told you we’d do this socratically…so you’ve taken the basics of Econ 101 and at a minimum understand the mechanisms of supply and demand, correct?


Baby steps with Espola Grace.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> "I fought the law, and the law won".


No video Evil


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 11615


Cheating & Lying is not good for the soul Espola.  BTW, Grace is schooling you big time.  I love the back & forth and the ass kicking she is giving you in good old debate 101.  You can;t answer the question.  Does cat have tongue?  Seriously, I took you down two years ago ((you had to ignore someone (Crush) for the first time on forum because the truth hurts)) and now Grace is destroying you.  You should go away now Espola.  You don;t have any children playing soccer and all you do is incite your true Elitism.  Smug old man you have become.  Death is near and I know when people get old, they start getting fearful of the unknown after life.  I know the truth and the truth can set you free.  My dad found the truth two months before he died.  PM me and I'll get you started on the basics of why were here in the first place.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> View attachment 11615


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> If you don't know the answer, just say so.  There is no point in hiding behind sophomoric tactics.


It’s basic economics 101 dude…and you’ve shown no semblance that you’d actually understand it (not that you really want to) hence where we are. It’s the espola doesn’t realize two yellow cards equal a red card all over again


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> It’s basic economics 101 dude…and you’ve shown no semblance that you’d actually understand it (not that you really want to) hence where we are. It’s the espola doesn’t realize two yellow cards equal a red card all over again


Woke math…..


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s basic economics 101 dude…and you’ve shown no semblance that you’d actually understand it (not that you really want to) hence where we are. It’s the espola doesn’t realize two yellow cards equal a red card all over again


I understand the concept.  I asked who was doing it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s basic economics 101 dude…and you’ve shown no semblance that you’d actually understand it (not that you really want to) hence where we are. It’s the espola doesn’t realize two yellow cards equal a red card all over again


...and I couldn't help but notice that in order to further your position, you just made some shit up.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The vaccine mandates mostly just reflect the mood of the country.
> 
> The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.
> 
> Expect more of this as time goes on.  People want normal, and universal vaccination helps us get there.


The ds in my feed like you seem to either be ignorant of the issue or intentionally ostriching. If a state were to do this some of the rs might be mad and call it a bad idea but there wouldn’t be this outrage.  People who felt really strongly about it would just leave the state and it would be a small group relatively.  The pushback isn’t about the vaxx. It’s about the constitution.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I understand the concept.  I asked who was doing it.


Then you don’t because it goes back to the basic principles of economics which is the answer.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The ds in my feed like you seem to either be ignorant of the issue or intentionally ostriching. If a state were to do this some of the rs might be mad and call it a bad idea but there wouldn’t be this outrage.  People who felt really strongly about it would just leave the state and it would be a small group relatively.  The pushback isn’t about the vaxx. It’s about the constitution.


I have the Nuremberg Code of rights #1-10, Article 7 of the Untied States Constitution and my basic right to say, "Get that experimental injection away from me and my blood vessels."  My blood is precious and I need healthy blood to live a happy and free life.  What happens if an infection enters your blood?  Why should I allow a substance we know very little about ((except that it came from a bat)) to enter my blood that then travels to my heart and my brain and other places that mean a lot to me?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.


And there you go again. 

The vaxxed still get the virus and transmit the virus. And before you say well they might not transmit as long. The point remains, for a period of time that isn't much different vs non vaxxed with the delta, vaxxed spread the virus just as easily. 

So no the virus isn't going anywhere. And no the virus isn't around because of the non vaxxed.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> It's not always politics.  Sometimes it's just common sense.





espola said:


> I understand the basics of economics.  Do you understand how to answer a simple question?  (I think that is taught in English classes)


so much for your understanding of basic econ.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I found my supplier from the more recent NYT article on domestic manufacturers having trouble finding customers. Shortage was over by then.


It still doesn't explain why you wear them. 

1) you are vaxxed
2) you are fairly young
3) you are fairly health
4) you have claimed now for over a year that surgical masks will do the job.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I didn’t summarize it. It’s in the thumbnail you posted. Which is hilarious.  Just admit you have egg on your face and move on


What egg?

I don’t think that sentence means anything more than “if we get a hospital order, we fill that one first.”.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Just making shit up again?  Does it  make you feel better?


Does it make you feel dumb?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The ds in my feed like you seem to either be ignorant of the issue or intentionally ostriching. If a state were to do this some of the rs might be mad and call it a bad idea but there wouldn’t be this outrage.  People who felt really strongly about it would just leave the state and it would be a small group relatively.  The pushback isn’t about the vaxx. It’s about the constitution.


More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”

Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.  

Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> What egg?
> 
> I don’t think that sentence means anything more than “if we get a hospital order, we fill that one first.”.


Instead of admitting you are wrong dad and just be humble like the rest of us, you not only have have egg on your face, you also keep digging a deeper hole for your box.  Look dad, you cheated & lied and it's obvious to the rest of us.  I get a kick out of watching people like you WHO began life living the lie, trying to keep lying and making up the most ridiculous lies to stay ahead of the last lie.  The one lie that trips me out the most is when the liar actually blames the victim for the actual abuse from all the lying.  This is what the devil does best and it's the most destructive and painful lie, moo moo moo moo!!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”
> 
> Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.
> 
> Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


I’m not threatening anything. I’m analyzing what’s going on.  And I did tell you back then there would be violence from the right and I nailed that. 

and yeah the rs will not live in a country where the courts allowthe federal govt to mandate via executive order anything this broad in defiance of what the individual states do.  It’s the same for the ds if trump had ordered California and New York to open. Fortunately for the rs (and the survival of the republic) the rs control the courts right now.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”
> 
> Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.
> 
> Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


This is a digital war dumb dumb.  It started on FB 5 years ago when your side lost to t and got all in a hissy fit.  The crying and whining from the losers has wrecked havoc on those who were just chilling at life like Crush was.  I was living my life until you guys lost.  My gosh, can;t you see?  Then you guys were going to lose again so you cheated and robbed the banks in broad daylight.  Military has been doing a sting on you fools.  Camp Justice is now in expansion mode down at the Bay.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What egg?
> 
> I don’t think that sentence means anything more than “if we get a hospital order, we fill that one first.”.


You: here’s something that proves my point
Me: did you read the thumbnail? It directly contradicts your point
You: yeah but the article
Me: I’m just pointing out the thumbnail. Then why’d you post it?
You: you are intentionally summarizing it wrong
Me: I’m not summarizing anything. I’m quoting your thumbnail
You: it doesn’t mean what you think it means. It means something else
Me: you’re negotiating. Trying to justify your actions.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> View attachment 11615


You don’t like being outsheeped do you?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The ds in my feed like you seem to either be ignorant of the issue or intentionally ostriching. If a state were to do this some of the rs might be mad and call it a bad idea but there wouldn’t be this outrage.  People who felt really strongly about it would just leave the state and it would be a small group relatively.  The pushback isn’t about the vaxx. It’s about the constitution.


Is it your position that no state governors have issued orders restricting the behavior of local governing bodies?


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> It still doesn't explain why you wear them.
> 
> 1) you are vaxxed
> 2) you are fairly young
> 3) you are fairly health
> 4) you have claimed now for over a year that surgical masks will do the job.


And 5) it’s a short exposure (the supermarket). It’s not like he’s going into the hospital or an an airplane.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Then you don’t because it goes back to the basic principles of economics which is the answer.


Ah -- argument by assertion.  High school debate club cured me of that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> It’s basic economics 101 dude…and you’ve shown no semblance that you’d actually understand it (not that you really want to) hence where we are. It’s the espola doesn’t realize two yellow cards equal a red card all over again


Just enjoy Econspola’s folly.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Is it your position that no state governors have issued orders restricting the behavior of local governing bodies?


Like our friend golden gate you misunderstand the constitution (why given it’s you an I not surprised…mr two yellow cards). The states are sovereign entities. The federal govt has limited powers under the constitution and powers not granted it are reserved to the states.  The same dynamic does not apply to state and locals.  The locals only have such power as delegated to them by the states. It’s about the constitution.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”
> 
> Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.
> 
> Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


The local* school board meeting was disrupted by lunatic fascists this week.  The board canceled the meeting at the advice of the SD Sherriff officer in attendance.

* I lived in that school district for 44 years in 3 different houses, and all 3 kids attended k through 12 (preschool was somewhere else), so I still feel like it is "local" even though we no longer live there.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Ah -- argument by assertion.  High school debate club cured me of that.


I told you I’m not going to go through Econ 101 micro with you. It’s easier to teach you federalism.  If you don’t understand it you don’t understand it. Just like dad4 has (rightly) declined to instruct me on some higher level mathematics. Take Econ online or at night school. You’ll enjoy it. Keeps the mind sharp in retirement, it’s always great to learn something new and you have the time.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not threatening anything. I’m analyzing what’s going on.  And I did tell you back then there would be violence from the right and I nailed that.
> 
> and yeah the rs will not live in a country where the courts allowthe federal govt to mandate via executive order anything this broad in defiance of what the individual states do.  It’s the same for the ds if trump had ordered California and New York to open. Fortunately for the rs (and the survival of the republic) the rs control the courts right now.


It's not the same.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Like our friend golden gate you misunderstand the constitution (why given it’s you an I not surprised…mr two yellow cards). The states are sovereign entities. The federal govt has limited powers under the constitution and powers not granted it are reserved to the states.  The same dynamic does not apply to state and locals.  The locals only have such power as delegated to them by the states. It’s about the constitution.


So you failed that class, too?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's not the same.


You are right. Because the rs are banking on the courts to strike it down.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I told you I’m not going to go through Econ 101 micro with you. It’s easier to teach you federalism.  If you don’t understand it you don’t understand it. Just like dad4 has (rightly) declined to instruct me on some higher level mathematics. Take Econ online or at night school. You’ll enjoy it. Keeps the mind sharp in retirement, it’s always great to learn something new and you have the time.


Yet more evasion.  Must be Friday.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Then you don’t because it goes back to the basic principles of economics which is the answer.


I could believe that you don't know who.  I find it hard to believe that you are being so evasive on the point.

Actually, on further reflection, while checking this post for spelling and grammar, I realized that is in error.  You will be evasive on any issue that is uncomfortable for you.  And I'm not making that up.


----------



## crush

Disclaimer from Crush:  Anything I post is for entertainment purposes only and has a mix with lot's of satire.  I like to poke my adversaries with my words only and I do not call for violence.  I have zero weapons and preach non-violence all day long.  However, I do preach to speak up and stand up for your rights.  This music video from Braveheart is a call to "digital arms" and nothing else.  I dont want Espola, Husker or Dad to read too much into this video I have been playing here for three years now.  I hope they dont turn me into the social media woke cops.  This is starting to get interesting to say the least.  I predicted this was a war against elitism and pay to play assholes who got their hands on soccer and I guess a whole lot more than I realized.  Any one with a brain of truth and a heart of gold can see through the cheating & lying.  Shame on the cheaters who lie to cover up their cheating and pay to play scams.  Stop it now and let's all restart this with fairness & merit that is all based on helping humanity heal.  Thoughts?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I could believe that you don't know who.  I find it hard to believe that you are being so evasive on the point.
> 
> Actually, on further reflection, while checking this post for spelling and grammar, I realized that is in error.  You will be evasive on any issue that is uncomfortable for you.  And I'm not making that up.


You: spouts off something thinking you understand it (like the two yellow cards thing)
Me: hmmm…does he understand it?  Probably not but let’s give him benefit of the doubt. What about this?
you: doesnt understand it. Goes off on a tangent 
Me: nope. He doesn’t get it. Surprise surprise. 
You: look at me understanding this. Look at me I’m a debate master
Me: sighs. We aren’t even debating…why does he think that?
you: answer my question
Me: no thanks. You don’t understand your own question
You: look at you being all evasive. I must be winning. She always gets evasive when I’m winning and make her feel uncomfortable
Me: snorts
You: look at you laughing. That’s a sign you are uncomfortable. I’m winning
Me:  shakes head as you crash

it’s why we call you Magoo dude.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”
> 
> Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.
> 
> Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


"THIS IS MY LAST STRAW MAN!"

...there, fixed it for you.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> You don’t like being outsheeped do you?


Does Espola have you on ignore too bruddah IZ?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You: spouts off something thinking you understand it (like the two yellow cards thing)
> Me: hmmm…does he understand it?  Probably not but let’s give him benefit of the doubt. What about this?
> you: doesnt understand it. Goes off on a tangent
> Me: nope. He doesn’t get it. Surprise surprise.
> You: look at me understanding this. Look at me I’m a debate master
> Me: sighs. We aren’t even debating…why does he think that?
> you: answer my question
> Me: no thanks. You don’t understand your own question
> You: look at you being all evasive. I must be winning. She always gets evasive when I’m winning and make her feel uncomfortable
> Me: snorts
> You: look at you laughing. That’s a sign you are uncomfortable. I’m winning
> Me:  shakes head as you crash
> 
> it’s why we call you Magoo dude.


Never have I posted that two yellow cards does not equal a red.  But you should stick with that at least for today - it's a clever obfuscation.  And it has nothing to do with why you won't (or can't?) answer a simple question.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Never have I posted that two yellow cards does not equal a red.  But you should stick with that at least for today - it's a clever obfuscation.  And it has nothing to do with why you won't (or can't?) answer a simple question.


It has everything to do with you you lose treads and are magoo. You jumped straight to dissent=red and even asked surf ref a question about it straight up. You never stopped to consider the possibility that two yellows = a red and yet here you are on a soccer forum.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You: spouts off something thinking you understand it (like the two yellow cards thing)
> Me: hmmm…does he understand it?  Probably not but let’s give him benefit of the doubt. What about this?
> you: doesnt understand it. Goes off on a tangent
> Me: nope. He doesn’t get it. Surprise surprise.
> You: look at me understanding this. Look at me I’m a debate master
> Me: sighs. We aren’t even debating…why does he think that?
> you: answer my question
> Me: no thanks. You don’t understand your own question
> You: look at you being all evasive. I must be winning. She always gets evasive when I’m winning and make her feel uncomfortable
> Me: snorts
> You: look at you laughing. That’s a sign you are uncomfortable. I’m winning
> Me:  shakes head as you crash
> 
> it’s why we call you Magoo dude.


Grace, you won!!!


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Never have I posted that two yellow cards does not equal a red.  But you should stick with that at least for today - it's a clever obfuscation.  And it has nothing to do with why you won't (or can't?) answer a simple question.


Loser!!!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It has everything to do with you you lose treads and are magoo. You jumped straight to dissent=red and even asked surf ref a question about it straight up. You never stopped to consider the possibility that two yellows = a red and yet here you are on a soccer forum.


More argument by assertion.  I assume you know what that means.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> More argument by assertion.  I assume you know what that means.


----------



## met61

Take the L!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> No video Evil


Yeah I think your "I am Wallace" link broke during reply.  I try not to post too many videos, gifs, images, etc.  On my end that sort of stuff ends up just being hard to distinguish from the pop up ads.  I image with the premium thing you get a more seamless user experience.  But seeing how its Friday and it's a good tune, what the heck.  Plus, in this time of ratty t-shirt lock down fashion, these matching tailored double-breasted maroon jackets deserve a moment of admiration.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> More argument by assertion.  I assume you know what that means.


Go ahead. Try everything to cover up your own ignorance


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So you failed that class, too?


Now you are just trolling…that’s not even clever…troll away


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Go ahead. Try everything to cover up your own ignorance


Here's a question for you (and a chance to display knowledge superior to mine) -- Who is driving up the costs of N95 masks?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Here's a question for you (and a chance to display knowledge superior to mine) -- Who is driving up the costs of N95 masks?


And back to square 1…thanks for playing


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yeah I think your "I am Wallace" link broke during reply.  I try not to post too many videos, gifs, images, etc.  On my end that sort of stuff ends up just being hard to distinguish from the pop up ads.  I image with the premium thing you get a more seamless user experience.  But seeing how its Friday and it's a good tune, what the heck.  Plus, in this time of ratty t-shirt lock down fashion, these matching tailored double-breasted maroon jackets deserve a moment of admiration.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Here's the Wallace pic from-lots of pages ago at this point.  It appears to me that his head injury has impaired his cognitive state.  Of course, that's nothing compared to the fate that awaits him.  Here's the thing though. check out the two dudes sharing a sword.  Against this orgy of rugged manly individualism the director has chosen to sneak in the withering effects of creeping collective action.  Eroding from within.  I suppose one could argue that an army is the quintessential form of collective action.  Or maybe they just ran out of swords for the extras. But why derail a good metaphorical train just as its leaving the station.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Hey EOTL.  How yah been?   Long time, huh?  Whatcha been up to?  Still playing amateur counsel?
> 
> 1.  Wow way to distort my position.  Dad4: see this is a deliberate mischaracterization of position in an attempt to lie....when you post the study itself and invite people to read it themselves, I'm not attempting to distort anything.  EOTL: The legal issue is not just livestock...it's whether the counties have authority to undertake actions which exceed the enumerated powers set out in the statute, considering no one contemplated such powers at the time the statutes were drafted.  It is entirely possible that a court would agree with you and say and statute was not intended to be limiting.  It is also entirely possible that the courts could say certain actions undertaken (the relevant one was the shuttering of churches and virtually all economic commerce which was the issue at the time) exceeded the powers granted by the statutes.  The emergency decree was a belt and suspenders approach to give the counties more leverage.  Newsom facing a political recall made a tactical decision to leave that in place to allow the counties maximum flexibility to do what they thought they needed to do while at the same time not taking any actions himself (such as a state wide indoor mask mandate) that might make him accountable during the recall.
> 
> 2. My position that the states should have maximum flexibility is because of the US constitution and the states are sovereign entities.  As you know, the Constitution doesn't care if California is several multiples the size of Rhode Island.  My position that states should be allowed to control their own pandemic responses is based on my belief of a limited interstate commerce clause and that nowhere in the Constitution does it give the federal government power over public health, therefore reserving such right to the states.  The counties, of course, have no such sovereign claim, and therefore are subordinate to the state and have such powers only as the state governments delegate under their respective constitutions.
> 
> 3. Liberals loved the distinction of sovereign powers while Trump was president.  Otherwise, Trump would have ordered Newsom and Cuomo and the other blue state governors to open up.  Now Republicans love the distinction because DeSantis can give Biden the finger.  Having recently returned from the Dakotas, it sets up a hilarious and nonsensical situation that you need to wear a mask to enter a national park there, but pretty much no one else is wearing a mask.
> 
> 4. At first you had me going (even the reference to Golden Gate) that you are an actual legal scholar but your failure to understand the distinction in 2, the vocab you use and the quasi legal understanding and failure to understand legal nuances (few lawyers take absolutist legal positions....it's beaten out of us in law school) points to you being my old friend EOTL.  Missed yah (not).


1. Where is the language in the statute that says a local health agency's authority to take action in response to a pandemic is limited to burning livestock? It doesn't exist. The statute is painfully clear that a local health agency has broad authority to do what it wants to limit the negative impact of infectious diseases.  The local ordinances that do so specifically reference this section.  There is literally nothing that supports your "theory" that it is Newsom's fault that local agencies have implemented their own ordinances because they only have that authority that local agencies may not implement their own pandemic rules unless the governor has declared a state of emergency.  That is just a lie no matter how many words you use to obfuscate that.

2. States are not "sovereign".  They have only powers not granted to the federal government, which you would know if you read the Constitution or were an attorney.  Second, you are correct that the Constitution doesn't care if LA is bigger than Rhode Island.  But do you know who does?  The "sovereign" state of California, which decided by state statute using its state power that it would allow its local jurisdictions to decide how to handle pandemics in their jurisdictions as they decide are best unless and until the state decides it must intervene.  So just as the federal Constitution allows the federal government to delegate certain matters to the states, which it does all the time, the state Constitution allows the state to similarly delegate things like authority to handle a pandemic, to local jurisdictions unless and until it decides otherwise. There is no practical reason why L.A. should have less ability to make decisions about how best to handle a pandemic in its jurisdiction than Rhode Island, and there is also no legal reason either given that the "sovereign" state of CA has elected to use its state power to let local jurisdictions decide what is best for them.  This provides by far the best flexibility for everyone because places like LA County obviously have different needs than Butte County, but the state can certainly intervene using its state power if it decides one of them is fucking it up. Honestly, you sound like someone who went to law school and took constitutional law but completely failed to learn anything about a state's "sovereign" power, which includes its "sovereign" ability to establish how government in its state works. 

3. This is just made up bs. 

4. As I have asked before, where is the legal authority that says the Health and Safety Code section that provides local jurisdictions with authority to implement their own rules and regulations in a pandemic is limited to burning clothes and livestock, as you claimed?  I actually cited the statute that is directly on point, which is not "quasi" law.  The only "quasi" legal discussion here was your bs nonsense about a county's authority being limited burning livestock and something to do with measles based on a vague penumbra that you can't support with a citation to anything. 

I had not made any personal attacks on you, yet here you are doing exactly that, probably because that is the only thing you can do in response to the fact that your "legal" opinion that counties only have the authority to implement mask and other mandates if a state of emergency is declared - or is limited to some nonsense about burning livestock - is simply a lie.  You don't practice law and probably never have, that is clear. And although that is not a requirement to understanding how the federal, state and local governments interact and what authority they have, it is very obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are so clueless that you're talking about the US Constitution on an issue that is governed by the California Constitution because, you know, the "sovereign" state of California gets to decide what its local jurisdictions can and cannot do.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> It still doesn't explain why you wear them.
> 
> 1) you are vaxxed
> 2) you are fairly young
> 3) you are fairly health
> 4) you have claimed now for over a year that surgical masks will do the job.


There is a difference between universal masking and one person donning a mask.   The first has a considerably larger impact than the second- not simply because one involves more people, but because one is more effective at changing the rate of growth of the virus.

But, to understand this, you’d have to be willing to think of covid as a societal problem instead of as an individual one.  As I said before, you are either unwilling or unable to make that cognitive leap.


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> 1. Where is the language in the statute that says a local health agency's authority to take action in response to a pandemic is limited to burning livestock? It doesn't exist. The statute is painfully clear that a local health agency has broad authority to do what it wants to limit the negative impact of infectious diseases.  The local ordinances that do so specifically reference this section.  There is literally nothing that supports your "theory" that it is Newsom's fault that local agencies have implemented their own ordinances because they only have that authority that local agencies may not implement their own pandemic rules unless the governor has declared a state of emergency.  That is just a lie no matter how many words you use to obfuscate that.
> 
> 2. States are not "sovereign".  They have only powers not granted to the federal government, which you would know if you read the Constitution or were an attorney.  Second, you are correct that the Constitution doesn't care if LA is bigger than Rhode Island.  But do you know who does?  The "sovereign" state of California, which decided by state statute using its state power that it would allow its local jurisdictions to decide how to handle pandemics in their jurisdictions as they decide are best unless and until the state decides it must intervene.  So just as the federal Constitution allows the federal government to delegate certain matters to the states, which it does all the time, the state Constitution allows the state to similarly delegate things like authority to handle a pandemic, to local jurisdictions unless and until it decides otherwise. There is no practical reason why L.A. should have less ability to make decisions about how best to handle a pandemic in its jurisdiction than Rhode Island, and there is also no legal reason either given that the "sovereign" state of CA has elected to use its state power to let local jurisdictions decide what is best for them.  This provides by far the best flexibility for everyone because places like LA County obviously have different needs than Butte County, but the state can certainly intervene using its state power if it decides one of them is fucking it up. Honestly, you sound like someone who went to law school and took constitutional law but completely failed to learn anything about a state's "sovereign" power, which includes its "sovereign" ability to establish how government in its state works.
> 
> 3. This is just made up bs.
> 
> 4. As I have asked before, where is the legal authority that says the Health and Safety Code section that provides local jurisdictions with authority to implement their own rules and regulations in a pandemic is limited to burning clothes and livestock, as you claimed?  I actually cited the statute that is directly on point, which is not "quasi" law.  The only "quasi" legal discussion here was your bs nonsense about a county's authority being limited burning livestock and something to do with measles based on a vague penumbra that you can't support with a citation to anything.
> 
> I had not made any personal attacks on you, yet here you are doing exactly that, probably because that is the only thing you can do in response to the fact that your "legal" opinion that counties only have the authority to implement mask and other mandates if a state of emergency is declared - or is limited to some nonsense about burning livestock - is simply a lie.  You don't practice law and probably never have, that is clear. And although that is not a requirement to understanding how the federal, state and local governments interact and what authority they have, it is very obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are so clueless that you're talking about the US Constitution on an issue that is governed by the California Constitution because, you know, the "sovereign" state of California gets to decide what its local jurisdictions can and cannot do.


You  so are EOTL man, or his otherwise his clone.  EXACT SAME SCHTICK.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Here's the Wallace pic from-lots of pages ago at this point.  It appears to me that his head injury has impaired his cognitive state.  Of course, that's nothing compared to the fate that awaits him.  Here's the thing though. check out the two dudes sharing a sword.  Against this orgy of rugged manly individualism the director has chosen to sneak in the withering effects of creeping collective action.  Eroding from within.  I suppose one could argue that an army is the quintessential form of collective action.  Or maybe they just ran out of swords for the extras. But why derail a good metaphorical train just as its leaving the station.
> 
> View attachment 11618


Weak!!!


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You  so are EOTL man, or his otherwise his clone.  EXACT SAME SCHTICK.


EOTL is Satan's side kick.  This is where I go deep into rabbit hole and most stay at the top because no one wants to look at all the evil that the likes of this man and his crew has done to folks like you and me Grace.  EOTL kills and lies and threatens dads and their children not to go around his campus.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> 1. Where is the language in the statute that says a local health agency's authority to take action in response to a pandemic is limited to burning livestock? It doesn't exist. The statute is painfully clear that a local health agency has broad authority to do what it wants to limit the negative impact of infectious diseases.  The local ordinances that do so specifically reference this section.  There is literally nothing that supports your "theory" that it is Newsom's fault that local agencies have implemented their own ordinances because they only have that authority that local agencies may not implement their own pandemic rules unless the governor has declared a state of emergency.  That is just a lie no matter how many words you use to obfuscate that.
> 
> 2. States are not "sovereign".  They have only powers not granted to the federal government, which you would know if you read the Constitution or were an attorney.  Second, you are correct that the Constitution doesn't care if LA is bigger than Rhode Island.  But do you know who does?  The "sovereign" state of California, which decided by state statute using its state power that it would allow its local jurisdictions to decide how to handle pandemics in their jurisdictions as they decide are best unless and until the state decides it must intervene.  So just as the federal Constitution allows the federal government to delegate certain matters to the states, which it does all the time, the state Constitution allows the state to similarly delegate things like authority to handle a pandemic, to local jurisdictions unless and until it decides otherwise. There is no practical reason why L.A. should have less ability to make decisions about how best to handle a pandemic in its jurisdiction than Rhode Island, and there is also no legal reason either given that the "sovereign" state of CA has elected to use its state power to let local jurisdictions decide what is best for them.  This provides by far the best flexibility for everyone because places like LA County obviously have different needs than Butte County, but the state can certainly intervene using its state power if it decides one of them is fucking it up. Honestly, you sound like someone who went to law school and took constitutional law but completely failed to learn anything about a state's "sovereign" power, which includes its "sovereign" ability to establish how government in its state works.
> 
> 3. This is just made up bs.
> 
> 4. As I have asked before, where is the legal authority that says the Health and Safety Code section that provides local jurisdictions with authority to implement their own rules and regulations in a pandemic is limited to burning clothes and livestock, as you claimed?  I actually cited the statute that is directly on point, which is not "quasi" law.  The only "quasi" legal discussion here was your bs nonsense about a county's authority being limited burning livestock and something to do with measles based on a vague penumbra that you can't support with a citation to anything.
> 
> I had not made any personal attacks on you, yet here you are doing exactly that, probably because that is the only thing you can do in response to the fact that your "legal" opinion that counties only have the authority to implement mask and other mandates if a state of emergency is declared - or is limited to some nonsense about burning livestock - is simply a lie.  You don't practice law and probably never have, that is clear. And although that is not a requirement to understanding how the federal, state and local governments interact and what authority they have, it is very obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are so clueless that you're talking about the US Constitution on an issue that is governed by the California Constitution because, you know, the "sovereign" state of California gets to decide what its local jurisdictions can and cannot do.


I liked the part about "if you...were an attorney".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You  so are EOTL man, or his otherwise his clone.  EXACT SAME SCHTICK.


Argument by assertion.  Haven't we discussed this already?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I liked the part about *"if you...were an attorney".*


I know you are and so is the EOTL/Golden Gate bridge avatar lawyer dudes.  You guys stole youth soccer and lied doing it.  What a bunch of losers who use girls to make a buck.  Losers!!!!


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Argument by assertion.  Haven't we discussed this already?


Liar & cheater Espola.  On here protecting what you think you own with power & control.  Wow, what a loser on a soccer forum with no kids.  You must have something to protect, right loser?


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You  so are EOTL man, or his otherwise his clone.  EXACT SAME SCHTICK.


I've laid out my case for why Newsom left the emergency order in place and why the counties authority is limited.  I hear your argument but I disagree with it.  It's a reasonable one...I simply disagree for the reasons I outlined, but I tend to be a strict constructionalist while you clearly are not.

As to the federal/county distinction, you were the one that pointed out the inconsistency.  I was trying to explain it.  The federal government only has powers which were not delegated to it by the states.  The federal government is limited in scope.  The states have the remainder of the powers reserved to them.  As to their relationship to the counties, that's a matter of state law and the state constitutions (which as you know, in California, are much easier to amend than the federal constitution).  The state delegated certain powers to the federal government....the state delegated certain powers to the county (and is free to change that delegation to the extent they are permitted under their constitution) but ultimately it is all about the states.

I haven't heard a denial you are EOTL.  Same language, same schtick, same MO, same quasi legal understanding.  If you aren't him, feel free to explain who you are and what brings you to a soccer forum.  Except for the most severely dysfunctional of us, we don't generally speak to each other that.  It's usually all: "I hear your view and I respect that, but here's why you are wrong_____".  What brings you to a soccer forum?  What's the association with Golden Gate....my bro taught there for a while?

Otherwise, EOTL is the only person I've ever blocked on these forums and I have no desire to relive that relationship.  Even espola is better (at least he's funny and makes me laugh)


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Weak!!!


Well, Scotland is still part of the UK, so yeah.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> You  so are EOTL man, or his otherwise his clone.  EXACT SAME SCHTICK.


Where is the authority that says a county cannot implement a mask or vaccine mandate unless Newsom has declared a state of emergency, as you claimed?

Where is the statute or case that says Health and Safety Code 120175 only allows a county to burn livestock and applies apparently only to measles, but does not allow a local health agency to implement mask or vaccine mandates in a pandemic without a state of emergency being declared?

How does your "analysis" of the US Constitution have anything to do with the extent to which California can, or in this case did, delegate authority to local jurisdictions to implement mask or even vaccine mandates?

The only schtick is that you keep lying and personally attacking those who definitively prove that you are lying. Are you going to start talking bs about "natural order" again since actual laws and how governments actually work are beyond your comprehension?


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> Where is the authority that says a county cannot implement a mask or vaccine mandate unless Newsom has declared a state of emergency, as you claimed?
> 
> Where is the statute or case that says Health and Safety Code 101085 only allows a county to burn livestock and applies apparently only to measles, but does not allow a local health agency to implement mask or vaccine mandates in a pandemic without a state of emergency being declared?
> 
> How does your "analysis" of the US Constitution have anything to do with the extent to which California can, or in this case did, delegate authority to local jurisdictions to implement mask or even vaccine mandates?
> 
> The only schtick is that you keep lying and personally attacking those who definitively prove that you are lying. Are you going to start talking bs about "natural order" again since actual laws and how governments actually work are beyond your comprehension?


Again, your quasi understanding is showing or you'd know that law isn't just as easy as the statute doesn't say the it exactly or there isn't a case on point.

The US Constitution question is a separate question (you had asked 2).

Again, you are dodging.  Your failure to deny you are EOTL or explain who you are, coupled with overly hostile and somewhat bipolar personality, points to you being EOTL.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Ah -- argument by assertion.  High school debate club cured me of that.


Yes and now your self-worth is determined by how many people you control on a youth soccer forum. 

Bravo!


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> I've laid out my case for why Newsom left the emergency order in place and why the counties authority is limited.  I hear your argument but I disagree with it.  It's a reasonable one...I simply disagree for the reasons I outlined, but I tend to be a strict constructionalist while you clearly are not.
> 
> As to the federal/county distinction, you were the one that pointed out the inconsistency.  I was trying to explain it.  The federal government only has powers which were not delegated to it by the states.  The federal government is limited in scope.  The states have the remainder of the powers reserved to them.  As to their relationship to the counties, that's a matter of state law and the state constitutions (which as you know, in California, are much easier to amend than the federal constitution).  The state delegated certain powers to the federal government....the state delegated certain powers to the county (and is free to change that delegation to the extent they are permitted under their constitution) but ultimately it is all about the states.
> 
> I haven't heard a denial you are EOTL.  Same language, same schtick, same MO, same quasi legal understanding.  If you aren't him, feel free to explain who you are and what brings you to a soccer forum.  Except for the most severely dysfunctional of us, we don't generally speak to each other that.  It's usually all: "I hear your view and I respect that, but here's why you are wrong_____".  What brings you to a soccer forum?  What's the association with Golden Gate....my bro taught there for a while?
> 
> Otherwise, EOTL is the only person I've ever blocked on these forums and I have no desire to relive that relationship.  Even espola is better (at least he's funny and makes me laugh)


Where is the statute, regulation, or case that says H&S Code section 120175 does not allow a county to implement a mask mandate even without a state of emergency being declared?  It sounds like your answer to everything when you have no legal support whatsoever is to claim "strict construction".  But as you should be aware if you were actually a lawyer, strict construction requires a judge to apply only the text as written, yet here you are claiming we should ignore the text as it is written and instead limit it to crap like burning livestock and the measles although the statute says nothing about either of those things.  You are making the exact opposite of a strict construction argument.  You are claiming that H&S Code 120175 should be limited by the same penumbra nonsense that you presumably complain about in Roe v. Wade.  

You can't even get "strict construction" right.  That's just the phrase that people like yourself who have no idea what they're talking about use as a dog whistle when they aren't getting what they want.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, Scotland is still part of the UK, so yeah.


I find war a very weird metaphor to assert individualism.  

Armies are not collections of isolated people, each doing whatever they please.  

It works in fiction.  But in the real world, an individualist soldier is rogue.  Less like Braveheart and more like Heart of Darkness.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I find war a very weird metaphor to assert individualism.
> 
> Armies are not collections of isolated people, each doing whatever they please.
> 
> It works in fiction.  But in the real world, an individualist soldier is rogue.  Less like Braveheart and more like Heart of Darkness.


Elitist!


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Where is the statute, regulation, or case that says H&S Code section 120175 does not allow a county to implement a mask mandate even without a state of emergency being declared?  It sounds like your answer to everything when you have no legal support whatsoever is to claim "strict construction".  But as you should be aware if you were actually a lawyer, strict construction requires a judge to apply only the text as written, yet here you are claiming we should ignore the text as it is written and instead limit it to crap like burning livestock and the measles although the statute says nothing about either of those things.  You are making the exact opposite of a strict construction argument.  You are claiming that H&S Code 120175 should be limited by the same penumbra nonsense that you presumably complain about in Roe v. Wade.
> 
> You can't even get "strict construction" right.  That's just the phrase that people like yourself who have no idea what they're talking about use as a dog whistle when they aren't getting what they want.


Elitist!


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, Scotland is still part of the UK, so yeah.


Evil Elitist!


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> Where is the statute, regulation, or case that says H&S Code section 120175 does not allow a county to implement a mask mandate even without a state of emergency being declared?  It sounds like your answer to everything when you have no legal support whatsoever is to claim "strict construction".  But as you should be aware if you were actually a lawyer, strict construction requires a judge to apply only the text as written, yet here you are claiming we should ignore the text as it is written and instead limit it to crap like burning livestock and the measles although the statute says nothing about either of those things.  You are making the exact opposite of a strict construction argument.  You are claiming that H&S Code 120175 should be limited by the same penumbra nonsense that you presumably complain about in Roe v. Wade.
> 
> You can't even get "strict construction" right.  That's just the phrase that people like yourself who have no idea what they're talking about use as a dog whistle when they aren't getting what they want.


Wow, not even a denial.  Reason I'm insistent upon it before I engage you is because EOTL crossed a line with me and attacked my kids.  I'm not prepared to engage with you in the absence of knowing you aren't, since I strongly suspect you are.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Wow, not even a denial.  Reason I'm insistent upon it before I engage you is because EOTL crossed a line with me and attacked my kids.  I'm not prepared to engage with you in the absence of knowing you aren't, since I strongly suspect you are.


You were perfectly fine engaging me until you ran out of things to say. This is just an excuse to avoid that you are wrong.

The California Constitution says "A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws".

Using your "strict construction" of the California Constitution that you apparently never knew existed, can you please "strictly construe" this language in a way that establishes that a city or county cannot implement an ordinance with a mask mandate unless an emergency declaration has been declared? Does "all" now mean "all but mask mandates unless the Governor declares a state of emergency"? Does "make" now mean "can't make"? Does the plain language "local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances" suddenly mean "local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances other than mask mandates when a state of emergency declared"?

You have zero idea what you are talking about. You had no idea that the California Constitution dictates what a county may or may not do. Instead you are babbling nonsense about the US Constitution.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I've laid out my case for why Newsom left the emergency order in place and why the counties authority is limited.  I hear your argument but I disagree with it.  It's a reasonable one...I simply disagree for the reasons I outlined, but I tend to be a strict constructionalist while you clearly are not.
> 
> As to the federal/county distinction, you were the one that pointed out the inconsistency.  I was trying to explain it.  The federal government only has powers which were not delegated to it by the states.  The federal government is limited in scope.  The states have the remainder of the powers reserved to them.  As to their relationship to the counties, that's a matter of state law and the state constitutions (which as you know, in California, are much easier to amend than the federal constitution).  The state delegated certain powers to the federal government....the state delegated certain powers to the county (and is free to change that delegation to the extent they are permitted under their constitution) but ultimately it is all about the states.
> 
> I haven't heard a denial you are EOTL.  Same language, same schtick, same MO, same quasi legal understanding.  If you aren't him, feel free to explain who you are and what brings you to a soccer forum.  Except for the most severely dysfunctional of us, we don't generally speak to each other that.  It's usually all: "I hear your view and I respect that, but here's why you are wrong_____".  What brings you to a soccer forum?  What's the association with Golden Gate....my bro taught there for a while?
> 
> Otherwise, EOTL is the only person I've ever blocked on these forums and I have no desire to relive that relationship.  Even espola is better (at least he's funny and makes me laugh)


Just checking in -- I'm not EOTL either.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Just checking in -- I'm not EOTL either.


Are you Dad4?  I heard a rumor that you were me.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Yes and now your self-worth is determined by how many people you control on a youth soccer forum.
> 
> Bravo!


Who do you think I control?  Looks like an undisciplined 6th-grade class with a substitute teacher around here most days.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Are you Dad4?  I heard a rumor that you were me.


I'll not be you if you promise not to be me.


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> You were perfectly fine engaging me until you ran out of things to say. This is just an excuse to avoid that you are wrong.
> 
> The California Constitution says "A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws".
> 
> Using your "strict construction" of the California Constitution that you apparently never knew existed, can you please "strictly construe" this language in a way that establishes that a city or county cannot implement an ordinance with a mask mandate unless an emergency declaration has been declared? Does "all" now mean "all but mask mandates unless the Governor declares a state of emergency"? Does "make" now mean "can't make"? Does the plain language "local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances" suddenly mean "local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances other than mask mandates when a state of emergency declared"?
> 
> You have zero idea what you are talking about. You had no idea that the California Constitution dictates what a county may or may not do. Instead you are babbling nonsense about the US Constitution.


That was before I realized you are likely EOTL.  I even smiled at first because of the Golden Gate reference...wondered if you might be one of bros former students.  With every step you take, the only thing you are doing is convincing me more and more you are in fact EOTL, which is why I'm no longer engaging you on the merits.  Same bipolar frenzy, same angry attacking rhetoric, same quasi legal understanding, same look at me I'm a legal scholar mentality.  It's a bullseye, particularly given there's been no denial....you seem to have the same clock, BTW, that EOTL had...something about access to a library computer IIRC.

There are 3 possibilities, in descending order of probabilities: 1) you are EOTL (in which case goodbye), 2) you are a colleague but are having a severely rough time (something is going on....full bipolar mode or something...again we don't speak to each other this way)....if so, please be aware the bar organization has some resources available for people that are having a hard time...pm me and I can point you to some resources  and I'm happy to help in any way I can, 3) this is just you (perhaps maybe even a law student) and are just having a real hard time expressing yourself without the hostility....in which case please fill me in, colleague to colleague...what brings you here...let's have a friendly chat, get to know each other, and we can resume on amicable grounds now that we know each other colleague to colleague....pm me if you'd like to do it privately.

Otherwise, later and blocked.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Elitist!


Why? Spell it out. Go there.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Are you Dad4?  I heard a rumor that you were me.


Nah, but evil goalie seems to be his mirrored doppleganger for your team.  Little joke...I actually like the way he engages crush. You guys needs a Bruddah too.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> That was before I realized you are likely EOTL.  I even smiled at first because of the Golden Gate reference...wondered if you might be one of bros former students.  With every step you take, the only thing you are doing is convincing me more and more you are in fact EOTL, which is why I'm no longer engaging you on the merits.  Same bipolar frenzy, same angry attacking rhetoric, same quasi legal understanding, same look at me I'm a legal scholar mentality.  It's a bullseye, particularly given there's been no denial....you seem to have the same clock, BTW, that EOTL had...something about access to a library computer IIRC.
> 
> There are 3 possibilities, in descending order of probabilities: 1) you are EOTL (in which case goodbye), 2) you are a colleague but are having a severely rough time (something is going on....full bipolar mode or something...again we don't speak to each other this way)....if so, please be aware the bar organization has some resources available for people that are having a hard time...pm me and I can point you to some resources  and I'm happy to help in any way I can, 3) this is just you (perhaps maybe even a law student) and are just having a real hard time expressing yourself without the hostility....in which case please fill me in, colleague to colleague...what brings you here...let's have a friendly chat, get to know each other, and we can resume on amicable grounds now that we know each other colleague to colleague....pm me if you'd like to do it privately.
> 
> Otherwise, later and blocked.


The only hostility here came from you.  I did not personally attack you until you started making personal comments like the above to me and others.  I cited the statute that says you were wrong and the California Constitutional provision that says you are wrong, and your response is stuff like this.  You don't want to discuss this in a public forum any more because you can't.  All you have are personal attacks.  That is the only thing you can do when you are exposed for the fraud that you are. 

Where is the law, court case, statute, regulation, constitutional provision or anything that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate other than if a state of emergency is declared?  You are the "strict constructionist", so it must exist in plain and unambiguous language, right? For a "strict constructionist" it should be incredibly easy to point out the plain and unambiguous law that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate unless a state of emergency is declared.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Just checking in -- I'm not EOTL either.


Oh everyone except for crush sort of accepts that.  EOTL is just nasty, hostile, but also very smart (in kind of a cracked mirror sort of way).  You are different and make me genuinely laugh, which is why I never blocked you. I actually don't believe that there are a whole lot of dopplegangers out there (though I did love that I sort of had one of my own for a while).   EOTL has a very distinct style so this is the first one I really suspect it.  I think NOTF has a couple, I thought kicking (or maybe hound)=mad hatter (I miss the mad hatter), I don't think dad4 has any, I think the outlaw had 1, but I tend to be more circumspect about the entire sock puppet thing.  It's hard to cover your personality and grammar if you post a lot.


----------



## Grace T.

GoldenGate said:


> The only hostility here came from you.  I did not personally attack you until you started making personal comments like the above to me and others.  I cited the statute that says you were wrong and the California Constitutional provision that says you are wrong, and your response is stuff like this.  You don't want to discuss this in a public forum any more because you can't.  All you have are personal attacks.  That is the only thing you can do when you are exposed for the fraud that you are.
> 
> Where is the law, court case, statute, regulation, constitutional provision or anything that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate other than if a state of emergency is declared?  You are the "strict constructionist", so it must exist in plain and unambiguous language, right? For a "strict constructionist" it should be incredibly easy to point out the plain and unambiguous law that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate unless a state of emergency is declared.


Wow...I reach out my hand and this is what you come back with?  BTW, you've tipped your hand so you clearly know who EOTL and why it's of relevance (otherwise you would have tried a "EOTL, what's that?"  And I don't know if you realize it, you are like a dog obsessively locked in with a bone.  O.k....no denial, we go with 1 then.  Blocked, thanks for playing.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow...I reach out my hand and this is what you come back with?  BTW, you've tipped your hand so you clearly know who EOTL and why it's of relevance (otherwise you would have tried a "EOTL, what's that?"  And I don't know if you realize it, you are like a dog obsessively locked in with a bone.  O.k....no denial, we go with 1 then.  Blocked, thanks for playing.


Argument by assertion, etc.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Argument by assertion, etc.


No argument in play here.  You know I refuse to dance with EOTL for what he did.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Who do you think I control?  Looks like an undisciplined 6th-grade class with a substitute teacher around here most days.


Corrected……

Yes and now your self-worth is determined by how many people you can troll on a youth soccer forum.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The vaccinated majority is tired of being held hostage by an unvaccinated minority.


Um, I don't know anybody directly (only like friends of a friends) that hasn't been vaccinated.  No one feels like they're being held hostage that I know.  If your feeling held hostage its out of your own irrational fear.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> There is a difference between universal masking and one person donning a mask.   The first has a considerably larger impact than the second- not simply because one involves more people, but because one is more effective at changing the rate of growth of the virus.
> 
> But, to understand this, you’d have to be willing to think of covid as a societal problem instead of as an individual one.  As I said before, you are either unwilling or unable to make that cognitive leap.


I think you are missing the leap. 

Covid will be endemic. Something we are going to have to live with. 

You are still stuck on the idea that limitations/masks/vaxxes are going to make it go away. 

One point of view is realistic. The other is fantasy


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Um, I don't know anybody directly (only like friends of a friends) that hasn't been vaccinated.  No one feels like they're being held hostage that I know.  If your feeling held hostage its out of your own irrational fear.


I know plenty of people who are annoyed with the anti-vax minority.  The most common response is contempt.  It takes a special person to believe that vaccines have computer chips inside and can make you magnetic.

But there is also a sense that this would be almost over if the last 80 million people would just take their shots.  

It hurts that the herd immunity threshold is so high.  If it were 70%, then it would not be issue.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> I think you are missing the leap.
> 
> Covid will be endemic. Something we are going to have to live with.
> 
> You are still stuck on the idea that limitations/masks/vaxxes are going to make it go away.
> 
> One point of view is realistic. The other is fantasy


Endemic is certainly a reality for many.  There will be more spikes but then an eventual descent into a baseline level of infection in many communities. Seems like the writing is on the wall.  Vaccination will continue to reduce  hospitalizations and deaths, but infections, hopitalizations, and deaths will still happen.

Everything else is just political blabbery.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I know plenty of people who are annoyed with the anti-vax minority.  The most common response is contempt.  It takes a special person to believe that vaccines have computer chips inside and can make you magnetic.
> 
> But there is also a sense that this would be almost over if the last 80 million people would just take their shots.
> 
> It hurts that the herd immunity threshold is so high.  If it were 70%, then it would not be issue.


The only people I know who have refused to take the shot are those that have had it before except for 1 hard core anti vax family who just doesn't trust public health given what they've done to date.

It may surprise you to learn that I'm annoyed with the anti-vax minority too (at least the ones that can't prove they've had it)....but I also know contempt isn't the answer, and government overreach isn't either.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Nah, but evil goalie seems to be his mirrored doppleganger for your team.  Little joke...I actually like the way he engages crush. You guys needs a Bruddah too.


That's funny.  For my part, I ended up with the idea that you and E were an old married couple finding a safe way to argue, kind of like taking turns screaming at the GPS trying to find parking in downtown LA.


----------



## Grace T.

Hey Dad....here's your new vax and mask example: singapore









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That's funny.  For my part, I ended up with the idea that you and E were an old married couple finding a safe way to argue, kind of like taking turns screaming at the GPS trying to find parking in downtown LA.


I love it!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow...I reach out my hand and this is what you come back with?  BTW, you've tipped your hand so you clearly know who EOTL and why it's of relevance (otherwise you would have tried a "EOTL, what's that?"  And I don't know if you realize it, you are like a dog obsessively locked in with a bone.  O.k....no denial, we go with 1 then.  Blocked, thanks for playing.


Argument by assertion, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> But there is also a sense that this would be almost over if the last 80 million people would just take their shots.


Based on the data it won't be over. 

The vaxxed carry high viral loads and spread it. 

To pretend that if everyone were vaxxed will stop the spread is well...fantasy. 

If on the other hand the vaxxed didnt spread the virus then you would have a point. But the latest info shows this isn't the case. 

That isn't an argument not to get vaxxed if one wants to. But to run around saying it would be almost over if everyone was vaxxed shows that person/people are not following the fact that vaxxed people are spreading covid.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Corrected……
> 
> Yes and now your self-worth is determined by how many people you can troll on a youth soccer forum.


That's not much of an improvement on your preceding post.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I know plenty of people who are annoyed with the anti-vax minority.  The most common response is contempt.  It takes a special person to believe that vaccines have computer chips inside and can make you magnetic.
> 
> But there is also a sense that this would be almost over if the last 80 million people would just take their shots.
> 
> It hurts that the herd immunity threshold is so high.  If it were 70%, then it would not be issue.


I'm sorry that you have friends that feel that way and are playing the victim card.  I suspect very few of those that aren't getting the shot believe that they are filled with computer chips and can make you magnetic, those people are idiots.  Most normal people are vaccinated and living their lives as usual.  They've done their part and aren't looking to scapegoat anyone else.

On the flip side, it takes a special kind of person to not understand that immunity from prior infection is vastly superior to vaccinated immunity.


----------



## Desert Hound

My how things change. I know they are memes....but...



And it seems just a few months ago it was Jim Crow to demand and ID that everyone has...but today?

By the way as of mid Aug about half of NY City was not vaxxed.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Based on the data it won't be over.
> 
> The vaxxed carry high viral loads and spread it.
> 
> To pretend that if everyone were vaxxed will stop the spread is well...fantasy.
> 
> If on the other hand the vaxxed didnt spread the virus then you would have a point. But the latest info shows this isn't the case.
> 
> That isn't an argument not to get vaxxed if one wants to. But to run around saying it would be almost over if everyone was vaxxed shows that person/people are not following the fact that vaxxed people are spreading covid.


The straw they are clinging too is: but on the whole the vaxxed have lower viral loads than the unvaxxed even though a particular vaxxed person can have viral loads as high, maybe masks get us the rest of the way, and the boosters hopefully act like chicken pox vaccination and confer more robust long lasting immunity (even though neither Biden nor the FDA have this long term data at their disposal and are just guessing/hoping).  It's straw clinging, hoping they are right, because they can't live with the reality that this might actually be endemic and some group of people will die for years to come....that would lead to despair.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> My how things change. I know they are memes....but...
> 
> View attachment 11619
> 
> And it seems just a few months ago it was Jim Crow to demand and ID that everyone has...but today?
> 
> By the way as of mid Aug about half of NY City was not vaxxed.
> 
> View attachment 11620


That's the irony of most of the Covid policies (like education and vaccine mandates).  They disproportionally impact minorities and the underprivileged.  It's a shame, and incredibly ironic, that they are the real victims of the left wing's war against white privilege.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I know plenty of people who are annoyed with the anti-vax minority.  The most common response is contempt.  It takes a special person to believe that vaccines have computer chips inside and can make you magnetic.
> 
> But there is also a sense that this would be almost over if the last 80 million people would just take their shots.
> 
> It hurts that the herd immunity threshold is so high.  If it were 70%, then it would not be issue.


Having contempt is a waste of time.  Plenty of people have good reason to not get vaxxed.  The magnetic field believing people are a small minority and referencing them is foolish and not very productive.

 Vaccination velocity is increasing amongst those that have been vax hesistant for no other reason than not trusting the government.  There are going to be plenty of people who don't vax because they've already been infected.  Really hard to make the case for their vaccination.  Too much data out there that supports their decision.  

This will eventually fade into the background and circualte just like many viruses do.  If the goal is to stop the transmission and prevent new variants, then 2020 style restrctions will have to be put in place.  Vaccinated people still get infected and transmit.  There is zero appetite for lockdowns.  

The herd immunity train left the station a while ago.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I find war a very weird metaphor to assert individualism.
> 
> Armies are not collections of isolated people, each doing whatever they please.
> 
> It works in fiction.  But in the real world, an individualist soldier is rogue.  Less like Braveheart and more like Heart of Darkness.


I agree with you.  The genius of Crush is his ability to take the gestalt of the conversation with all its "ifs" "ands" and "buts" and distill it down to 100% metaphorical proof.  New vaccine guidelines => => => war. Sometimes I wonder if he's a retired George Lakoff having a little jest with himself seeing if he can place us all in the same frame.  Notice how Gibson plays the Wallace character in the movie, however. Always leading, directing, being revered, center of attention.  the ultimate ubermensch.  In that sense I thought the choice of image was interesting and was/am playing with it a bit.  Once you sign up with team Evil it's kind of like that.  Work, work, work.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Having contempt is a waste of time.


You're so last century.  Having contempt and being offended is all the rage.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm sorry that you have friends that feel that way and are playing the victim card.  I suspect very few of those that aren't getting the shot believe that they are filled with computer chips and can make you magnetic, those people are idiots.  Most normal people are vaccinated and living their lives as usual.  They've done their part and aren't looking to scapegoat anyone else.
> 
> On the flip side, it takes a special kind of person to not understand that immunity from prior infection is vastly superior to vaccinated immunity.


Victim card?

Is that your way of saying you don't like it when someone points out that the anti-mask anti-vax folks have been keeping this disease alive and forcing the rest of us to deal with it?  

Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population.  

Natural immunity as a reason to avoid vaccines?  I don't believe natural immunity is stronger than the combination of natural and vaccine immunity.  Nor do you.  They should still get the shot.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population.


Assuming, arguendo, that's even true (and look at the UK....that's simply not true...yeah I know you are talking about numbers in the high 90s which don't exist anywhere except in very well off, not very dense, very few children areas), full world vaccination isn't available until 2023 and people will still move around, seeding new outbreaks (since the vaccine is not full proof).  Unless you plan to shut down all world travel substantially, a "fully vaccinated adult population" is an illusion itself.









						United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I’m not threatening anything. I’m analyzing what’s going on.  And I did tell you back then there would be violence from the right and I nailed that.
> 
> and yeah the rs will not live in a country where the courts allowthe federal govt to mandate via executive order anything this broad in defiance of what the individual states do.  It’s the same for the ds if trump had ordered California and New York to open. Fortunately for the rs (and the survival of the republic) the rs control the courts right now.


As @dad4 points out, right-wing extremists resort to violence such as looting our cities and occupying Seattle and Portland while attacking the police and federal buildings. Or, maybe it's all extremists. My concern now is random acts of violence from the extremes that target specific people or entities that are seen to represent the "other" side. As tolerance for the "other" side decreases, it promotes more extremism. Our "salad bowl" culture has come to the point where the onions want the tomatoes to be onions and the tomatoes want the onions to be tomatoes.


----------



## watfly

Victim card? *100%*

Is that your way of saying you don't like it when someone points out that the anti-mask anti-vax folks have been keeping this disease alive and forcing the rest of us to deal with it? *Fictional narrative*

Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population. *You know that's false, Delta is spreading just fine in the vaccinated community, albeit better in the unvaccinated.*

Natural immunity as a reason to avoid vaccines?  *Its a perfectly valid reason since it provides multifold better protection* I don't believe natural immunity is stronger than the combination of natural and vaccine immunity.  Nor do you.  *Espola Strawman* They should still get the shot.  *Because your being held hostage by your own phobia?*


----------



## watfly

When I become president (god help us all) I'm going to mandate Peloton bikes and no smoking.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> ....but I also know contempt isn't the answer, and government overreach isn't either.


Sadly, you appear to be in the minority.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> You're so last century.  Having contempt and being offended is all the rage.


Don't forget outrage. If you aren't outraged, you are paying attention.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> As @dad4 points out, right-wing extremists resort to violence such as looting our cities and occupying Seattle and Portland while attacking the police and federal buildings. Or, maybe it's all extremists. My concern now is random acts of violence from the extremes that target specific people or entities that are seen to represent the "other" side. As tolerance for the "other" side decreases, it promotes more extremism. Our "salad bowl" culture has come to the point where the onions want the tomatoes to be onions and the tomatoes want the onions to be tomatoes.





dad4 said:


> Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population.
> 
> Natural immunity as a reason to avoid vaccines?  I don't believe natural immunity is stronger than the combination of natural and vaccine immunity.  Nor do you.  They should still get the shot.


p.s. you are NEVER going to force the die hard holdouts short of storming their homes and dragging them into the hospital to get their shots.  They simply won't do it.  That leaves you with three choices: 1) accept it's not going to be everyone, 2) go into their homes and drag them to the shots, or 3) call it quits, mandate it in the blue states, let's separate, and block red state America from coming into your state because otherwise (if you believe the unvaxxed are a danger to the vaxxed) one could show up in your neighborhood.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Victim card?
> 
> Is that your way of saying you don't like it when someone points out that the anti-mask anti-vax folks have been keeping this disease alive and forcing the rest of us to deal with it?
> 
> Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population.
> 
> Natural immunity as a reason to avoid vaccines?  I don't believe natural immunity is stronger than the combination of natural and vaccine immunity.  Nor do you.  They should still get the shot.


You must have typed this with a smirk.  You  know none of this is even remotely true.  The real world doesn't exist in this box, quite the opposite actually.  

The  jury is still out on hybrid immunity.  Even Mr. Gain of Function himself will not answer the question directly.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Don't forget outrage. If you aren't outraged, you are paying attention.


100%, even seen that on bumper stickers.  Speaking of bumper stickers my all time favorite is "Jesus Loves You, But Everyone Else Thinks You're An Asshole".  Also is there some minimum required number of bumper stickers that you have to have on the back of a Prius?


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> I think you are missing the leap.
> 
> Covid will be endemic. Something we are going to have to live with.
> 
> You are still stuck on the idea that limitations/masks/vaxxes are going to make it go away.
> 
> One point of view is realistic. The other is fantasy


It's become some type of weird religious-like team sport for many...throwing logic aside to win at all cost. I can only think maybe it's some way for them to rationalize their narrative induced irrational fears.

We should all be on Team Skeptic...directing all ire at China and any organization and/or persons responsible...while questioning government every step of the way.

The Trump era sure broke and permanently damaged many folks.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Having contempt and being offended is all the rage.


I read this thing I thought was kind of interesting.  The argument was that a difference between people communicating "in person" and people communicating by posting online was that when you talk to somebody face to face most people naturally seek some sort of accommodation. Whereas when you post online you are basically representing an artificial personae you've created-you are effectively branding yourself and engaging in a marketplace of competing brands.  So online communication tends towards forms of discord in discourse that you'd never do in person.  And disinformation feeds into it because all the actor has to do is create pre-made advertisements that you can use to rep your brand. Don't know how much there is to it but was interesting.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> It's become some type of weird religious-like team sport for many...throwing logic aside to win at all cost. I can only think maybe it's some way for them to rationalize their narrative induced irrational fears.
> 
> We should all be on Team Skeptic...directing all ire at China and any organization and/or persons responsible...while questioning government every step of the way.
> 
> The Trump era sure broke and permanently damaged many folks.


Yeah...but I'm really worried that it's not fixable.  I understood why people had a problem with Trump.  I understood why after years of building up their frustrations, the conservatives went with Trump (and why a portion of the Republican party opted to risk burning it down rather than go with yet another establishmentarian like Jeb!).  I had hoped I was wrong and Biden would be a unifier that would restore some semblance of normality.  But nope....the left is still snapped and what Biden did yesterday (but for the right thinking the courts have their back) has snapped the R.  It's not good....I just don't see how we off ramp at this point.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> 1Also is there some minimum required number of bumper stickers that you have to have on the back of a Prius?


I think there is new guidance on this.  Mandated as two less than the current average of sticker/flag combinations on Ford F-450's.  And the HOV stickers don't count.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Assuming, arguendo, that's even true (and look at the UK....that's simply not true...yeah I know you are talking about numbers in the high 90s which don't exist anywhere except in very well off, not very dense, very few children areas), full world vaccination isn't available until 2023 and people will still move around, seeding new outbreaks (since the vaccine is not full proof).  Unless you plan to shut down all world travel substantially, a "fully vaccinated adult population" is an illusion itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


International travel, including illegal travel, is a very small fraction of cases.

There are only about one million border crossings per day.  

Even if those foreigners have covid at the same rate as the US does currently, that’s only about 2500 cases per day from border crossings.  

Now remember that the vast majority of border crossings are legal, which means we can require tests and vaccinations.  Now you’re down well below 1000 per day if we’re smart about it.

That’s not a crisis.

Unless, of course, you have a fifth column of anti-mask anti-vax folks who keep R above 1.  Then your 1000 cases per day balloons to 150,000 cases per day and you get the crisis we have now.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I think there is new guidance on this.  Mandated as two less than the current average of sticker/flag combinations on Ford F-450's.  And the HOV stickers don't count.


oh oh.  Having none on my prius, I think I'm in a lot of trouble.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> You're so last century.  Having contempt and being offended is all the rage.


I forgot to add that "all the rage" was very well played.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> International travel, including illegal travel, is a very small fraction of cases.
> 
> There are only about one million border crossings per day.
> 
> Even if those foreigners have covid at the same rate as the US does currently, that’s only about 2500 cases per day from border crossings.
> 
> Now remember that the vast majority of border crossings are legal, which means we can require tests and vaccinations.  Now you’re down well below 1000 per day if we’re smart about it.
> 
> That’s not a crisis.
> 
> Unless, of course, you have a fifth column of anti-mask anti-vax folks who keep R above 1.  Then your 1000 cases per day balloons to 150,000 cases per day and you get the crisis we have now.


I was talking about current domestic.  Unless you separate into your own exclave, plenty of tourists from Florida can come visiting your home town.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I read this thing I thought was kind of interesting.  The argument was that a difference between people communicating "in person" and people communicating by posting online was that when you talk to somebody face to face most people naturally seek some sort of accommodation. Whereas when you post online you are basically representing an artificial personae you've created-you are effectively branding yourself and engaging in a marketplace of competing brands.  So online communication tends towards forms of discord in discourse that you'd never do in person.  And disinformation feeds into it because all the actor has to do is create pre-made advertisements that you can use to rep your brand. Don't know how much there is to it but was interesting.


I think that's accurate. We've become last civilized in online conversations, and maybe that's why we're less tolerant of opposing opinions.   However, I also think there is a wave of lack of intolerance for opposing opinions in general unrelated to online personas.   While I try to avoid ad hominems online, I'm sometimes more snarky, maybe borderline mean-spirited, online than I would be face to face (although many of my friends might dispute that).  I'm pretty pointed with certain people, like Dad4, as is he with me, although I still appreciate his takes.  I suspect that he and I have way more in common than not, and if our kids were on the same team, I'd bet we would be hanging out and shooting the BS.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I forgot to add that "all the rage" was very well played.


Ha, that was unintentional, but thanks.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> oh oh.  Having none on my prius, I think I'm in a lot of trouble.


You can opt out of the sticker requirement if you drive 60 in the fast lane.  

I was always taught the fast lane was the passing lane.  Apparently they don't teach that anymore, particularly in Arizona.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Victim card? *100%*
> 
> Is that your way of saying you don't like it when someone points out that the anti-mask anti-vax folks have been keeping this disease alive and forcing the rest of us to deal with it? *Fictional narrative*
> 
> Look at the very high vax areas.  Delta can't grow in a fully vaccinated adult population. *You know that's false, Delta is spreading just fine in the vaccinated community, albeit better in the unvaccinated.*
> 
> Natural immunity as a reason to avoid vaccines?  *Its a perfectly valid reason since it provides multifold better protection* I don't believe natural immunity is stronger than the combination of natural and vaccine immunity.  Nor do you.  *Espola Strawman* They should still get the shot.  *Because your being held hostage by your own phobia?*


Where do you see any fully vaccinated community with R above 1?

The closest example I can find is Martha’s Vineyard.  95% adult vax rate.  Cases slowly declining ever since the Obama case spike.  That means R slightly below 1.   not growing.

I think what we are seeing is that delta spreads just fine from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.   That does not mean delta case numbers can grow within a vacinated population.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> oh oh.  Having none on my prius, I think I'm in a lot of trouble.


No worries.  I'm sure there are many friendly people here that could suggest several good choices before you'd get to a point were you'd need to start watching the skies.  My only recommendation would be to not stick on club insignia.  Here today, gone tomorrow.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think what we are seeing is that delta spreads just fine from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.   That does not mean delta case numbers can grow within a vacinated population.


Potentially valid point.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Potentially valid point.


It depends on: a) how long vaccine immunity lasts (otherwise you have people dropping into the unprotected category every months....there's also a threshold question...what does "last" mean), b) if natural immunity is as robust as vaccine immunity (all indications are it is, if not even more robust), c) how many people are naturally immune as well, d) how long does natural immunity last, and e) does the virus continue to mutate to avoid prior natural and vaccine immunity.  Biden/Gottlieb/Fauci are hoping a booster vaccine makes immunity near permanent like the chicken pox vaccine....they have no data to support that belief.....it could be its like the chicken pox, it could be its like the flu shot.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Where do you see any fully vaccinated community with R above 1?
> 
> The closest example I can find is Martha’s Vineyard.  95% adult vax rate.  Cases slowly declining ever since the Obama case spike.  That means R slightly below 1.   not growing.
> 
> I think what we are seeing is that delta spreads just fine from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.   That does not mean delta case numbers can grow within a vacinated population.


Fact...but unscientific:

I am vaccinated. Recently, I contracted Covid, along with 2 other vax & 1 unvax, from another vax. I then spread to my vax spouse and my unvax teen = cases grew within a vaccinated population.

So, as I always ask...now what? or...then what?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> Fact...but unscientific:
> 
> I am vaccinated. Recently, I contracted Covid, along with 2 other vax & 1 unvax, from another vax. I then spread to my vax spouse and my unvax teen = cases grew within a vaccinated population.
> 
> So, as I always ask...now what? or...then what?


I hope everyone is doing OK.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Fact...but unscientific:
> 
> I am vaccinated. Recently, I contracted Covid, along with 2 other vax & 1 unvax, from another vax. I then spread to my vax spouse and my unvax teen = cases grew within a vaccinated population.
> 
> So, as I always ask...now what? or...then what?


My friend had a similar experience with COVID spreading around a vaxxed and masked picnic.  These are all anecdotes but are not consistent with an 80% efficiency against symptomatic infection.  These anecdotes shouldn't be happening with the frequency they are happening.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> You can opt out of the sticker requirement if you drive 60 in the fast lane.
> 
> I was always taught the fast lane was the passing lane.  Apparently they don't teach that anymore, particularly in Arizona.


That would be the snowbirds (in AZ), definitely not the natives. Drive the I10 to Phoenix on a Sunday PM/evening, its Deathrace 2000 on steroids, where slow is only 10 above the limit ... and you are in the way.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Yeah...but I'm really worried that it's not fixable.  I understood why people had a problem with Trump.  I understood why after years of building up their frustrations, the conservatives went with Trump (and why a portion of the Republican party opted to risk burning it down rather than go with yet another establishmentarian like Jeb!).  I had hoped I was wrong and Biden would be a unifier that would restore some semblance of normality.  But nope....the left is still snapped and what Biden did yesterday (but for the right thinking the courts have their back) has snapped the R.  It's not good....I just don't see how we off ramp at this point.


Those who can't get beyond a personality and vote as such are an inch deep.

It wasn't about Trump the person as much as it was about what that person exposed, revived, and accomplished. 

It's not Trump's government, it's ours...and the political class in both parties have gotten way out of touch for what's best at the kitchen table level. 

Trump showed how to take on the political class and their lackeys in the media, big tech and the lemming left... It will take enough folks reaching a tipping point, grassroots unity and the stones to do it...Keep an eye on poc's and the youth. We'll see.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Fact...but unscientific:
> 
> I am vaccinated. Recently, I contracted Covid, along with 2 other vax & 1 unvax, from another vax. I then spread to my vax spouse and my unvax teen = cases grew within a vaccinated population.
> 
> So, as I always ask...now what? or...then what?


Not a problem, so long as that is not the average.

If, on average, each vaccinated person infects two others, then it's a problem.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> I hope everyone is doing OK.


Thanks, none were hospitalized...all mild manageable symptoms in my family. Hoping not to have to deal with mandated vaccination for my teen who has natural immunity.


----------



## Desert Hound

Sorry dad.









						The Downsides of Masking Young Students Are Real
					

The educational cost of face coverings is far better established than the benefits of mandates.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T.

Extremely bad news if it' holds out:

1) There's some data to suggest vaccine immunity may be waning.
2) the UK spread it's vaccinations apart.  It suggests (unless a much longer period is required to reach full immunity) Fauci/Gottlieb/Biden are wrong about the vaccine being like a chicken pox vaccination (1 booster= long lasting immunity).  Not a slam dunk but it's an indication.
3) the vaccine seems to be providing less protection against hospitalization
4) the vaccine seems to be providing less protection against long COVID.

If so natural infection after vaccination may be the only alternative to ending this.


----------



## Grace T.

Is this proof of lab leak lies?
					

New documents reveal how leading scientists manipulated the truth




					unherd.com


----------



## Grace T.

__





						We’re Asking the Impossible of Vaccines
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Sorry dad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Downsides of Masking Young Students Are Real
> 
> 
> The educational cost of face coverings is far better established than the benefits of mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Was this the part you were thinking of?

"Newly released results from a large trial in rural Bangladesh found that the widespread use of surgical masks by adults yields a significant reduction in the spread of symptomatic COVID-19."

It's from your article.  Glad to hear that you're now on board with surgical masks for adults.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Sorry dad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Downsides of Masking Young Students Are Real
> 
> 
> The educational cost of face coverings is far better established than the benefits of mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Not credible, only an associate professor of epidemiology.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> More overblown rhetoric.  You love to say “THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!!!   IT’S GONNA BE WAR!!!!”
> 
> Threaten violence if you don’t get your way.   It’s the right wing lunatic version of “no justice, no peace.”.
> 
> Seriously, what are you going to do?  Drive to the capitol, form a mob, and try to lynch Mike Pence again?


Your collectivist bent is showing.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> I’m not threatening anything. I’m analyzing what’s going on.  And I did tell you back then there would be violence from the right and I nailed that.
> 
> and yeah the rs will not live in a country where the courts allowthe federal govt to mandate via executive order anything this broad in defiance of what the individual states do.  It’s the same for the ds if trump had ordered California and New York to open. Fortunately for the rs (and the survival of the republic) the rs control the courts right now.


I knew Dadspola a facist from the get go.  You can see the desperate rhetoric he spews.  Kinda like:

“We need to start looking at the choice to remain unvaccinated the same as we look at driving while intoxicated,” she told CNN’s Chris Cuomo Thursday night. “You have the option to not get vaccinated if you want, but then you can’t go out in public.”

Wen elaborated that society has an “obligation to prevent” the unvaccinated from leaving their homes and infecting others, in the same way that society has an obligation to deter drunk drivers.

“The vaccinated should not have to pay the price for the so-called choices of the unvaccinated anymore,” she continued.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Where do you see any fully vaccinated community with R above 1?
> 
> The closest example I can find is Martha’s Vineyard.  95% adult vax rate.  Cases slowly declining ever since the Obama case spike.  That means R slightly below 1.   not growing.
> 
> I think what we are seeing is that delta spreads just fine from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.   That does not mean delta case numbers can grow within a vacinated population.


Still ignoring the Science that shows a robust immune system protected millions of infected folks pre-vax.


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> I knew Dadspola a facist from the get go.  You can see the desperate rhetoric he spews.  Kinda like:
> 
> “We need to start looking at the choice to remain unvaccinated the same as we look at driving while intoxicated,” she told CNN’s Chris Cuomo Thursday night. “You have the option to not get vaccinated if you want, but then you can’t go out in public.”
> 
> Wen elaborated that society has an “obligation to prevent” the unvaccinated from leaving their homes and infecting others, in the same way that society has an obligation to deter drunk drivers.
> 
> “The vaccinated should not have to pay the price for the so-called choices of the unvaccinated anymore,” she continued.


The scary thing for him will turn out to be if the uk authorities turn out to be right and the only way out is through natural infection. That means it’s people like him that are prolonging this by avoiding catching the virus while in high vaccinated immunity.  Maybe then it flips and those of us living our lives have the right to grow impatient with him.   Maybe even forcefully stripping his Mask off.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Was this the part you were thinking of?


The title might be your first clue to what he was thinking of.  But your mask mea culpa takes care of the adults useless masking.  Just don't trim your nose hairs.  They'll render corona DOA.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The scary thing for him will turn out to be if the uk authorities turn out to be right and the only way out is through natural infection. That means it’s people like him that are prolonging this by avoiding catching the virus while in high vaccinated immunity.  Maybe then it flips and those of us living our lives have the right to grow impatient with him.   Maybe even forcefully stripping his Mask off.


Denying people their right to strengthen their immune systems, through natural infection, is evil and cowardly.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Is this proof of lab leak lies?
> 
> 
> New documents reveal how leading scientists manipulated the truth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


They was a lot of emails released this past week regarding funding in China. Let's just say Fauci and the others in charge have not been truthful.

But if you read the paper of record and other mainstream news orgs you would mainly be in the dark about this.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Still ignoring the Science that shows a robust immune system protected millions of infected folks pre-vax.


No.  I freely admit that we could be over this in a couple months if we used crop dusters to spray live Delta virus over the whole population.

Then just wait a few days.  Anyone still alive must be immune!  

It's just a bad idea, that's all.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We’re Asking the Impossible of Vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


So kids have essentially zero risk if the virus. And yet people are pushing to get the young ones vaccinated. And yet for boys they have more risk of the vaccine vs not taking it. 

Idiocy.

That said the chances of them getting that side effect is extremely small, but yet a larger risk vs not taking the vaccine.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> . I freely admit that we could be over this in a couple months if we used crop dusters to spray live Delta virus over the whole population.


Here is the thing. You could crop dust everyone and it wouldn't affect the vast vast majority of people.

Those at risk are already with serious health issues or are old with serious health issues.

The 99.9xx of the rest will shrug it off like a dog shakes off water getting out of the pool


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The scary thing for him will turn out to be if the uk authorities turn out to be right and the only way out is through natural infection. That means it’s people like him that are prolonging this by avoiding catching the virus while in high vaccinated immunity.  Maybe then it flips and those of us living our lives have the right to grow impatient with him.   Maybe even forcefully stripping his Mask off.


Given your track record, why would I believe your claim that the NHS is deliberately promoting covid infection as a way to increase natural immunity? 

Much more likely that you just saw some positive quote about the benefits of natural immunity and are choosing to make it mean what you want it to mean.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No.  I freely admit that we could be over this in a couple months if we used crop dusters to spray live Delta virus over the whole population.
> 
> Then just wait a few days.  Anyone still alive must be immune!
> 
> It's just a bad idea, that's all.


That’s what happens when you ignore the history and the science.  Same old case hype and low deaths right where they’ve been in decades past


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> No.  I freely admit that we could be over this in a couple months if we used crop dusters to spray live Delta virus over the whole population.
> 
> Then just wait a few days.  Anyone still alive must be immune!
> 
> It's just a bad idea, that's all.


It’s an awful idea.  Even if natural immunity is lifelong (Don’t really need to worry about variants in that scenario) you don’t want everyone to be symptomatic simultaneously. That would be too much of a burden on the system.

Slow burn through the mostly vaccinated first world countries may be the best case scenario here.

That said, Delta in India was bad (think vaccination rate) but here.. meh. So, why the fear?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Given your track record, why would I believe your claim that the NHS is deliberately promoting covid infection as a way to increase natural immunity?
> 
> Much more likely that you just saw some positive quote about the benefits of natural immunity and are choosing to make it mean what you want it to mean.


The Campbell videos lay out the Uk/Denmark approach. It’s lift all restrictions and have people acquire natural immunity boosters through time, not deliberately infect them. We should know by winter if it works if Sweden the uk Denmark do not have large spikes.

I’m postulating an alternative universe where the population gets sick of this dragging on, and puts people like you who are trying to avoid getting sick in the crosshairs. I don’t seriously think it will happen. But alternative fiction is fun to speculate about.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Given your track record, why would I believe your claim that the NHS is deliberately promoting covid infection as a way to increase natural immunity?
> 
> Much more likely that you just saw some positive quote about the benefits of natural immunity and are choosing to make it mean what you want it to mean.


Nearly 8,000,000,000 people living on this planet. I’d say immune system’s had something to do with that. How about you?


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> I’m postulating an alternative universe where the population gets sick of this dragging on, and puts people like you who are trying to avoid getting sick in the crosshairs. I don’t seriously think it will happen. But alternative fiction is fun to speculate about.


Postulating? The rest of the world will reach this endgame far faster than those with the wealth to postpone it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The Campbell videos lay out the Uk/Denmark approach. It’s lift all restrictions and have people acquire natural immunity boosters through time, not deliberately infect them. We should know by winter if it works if Sweden the uk Denmark do not have large spikes.
> 
> I’m postulating an alternative universe where the population gets sick of this dragging on, and puts people like you who are trying to avoid getting sick in the crosshairs. I don’t seriously think it will happen. But alternative fiction is fun to speculate about.


You think we should watch a Campbell video as a way to learn official government policy.

Why not a Boris Johnson video?  Or an NHS video?  Is the sovereign government of the United Kingdom suddenly incapable of speaking for itself?


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Delta in India was bad (think vaccination rate) but here.. meh. So, why the fear?


Actually, there may be a much more pronounced net impact differential, given the co-morbidity rate in the US with obesity alone as a factor.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You think we should watch a Campbell video as a way to learn official government policy.
> 
> Why not a Boris Johnson video?  Or an NHS video?  Is the sovereign government of the United Kingdom suddenly incapable of speaking for itself?


The Campbell videos are useful because there does not seem to be any taint of political purpose to them.  However, his method of presentation gives mask and vaccine deniers hooks to hang from, even when it is plain they do not understand the whole content of what he is saying.  Those mistakes then become "data" others can support or point to in succeeding arguments.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The Campbell videos lay out the Uk/Denmark approach. It’s lift all restrictions and have people acquire natural immunity boosters through time, not deliberately infect them. We should know by winter if it works if Sweden the uk Denmark do not have large spikes.
> 
> I’m postulating an alternative universe where the population gets sick of this dragging on, and puts people like you who are trying to avoid getting sick in the crosshairs. I don’t seriously think it will happen. But alternative fiction is fun to speculate about.


How's this?  An Alternative History of 2020-2021 (full disclaimer: yeah I know it's stupid....but most alt history is just silly and at times stupid)

Many Americans, regardless of political parties, mourned when Joe Biden passed away after contracting COVID from Donald Trump at the first 2020 debate.  There was a question of whether Kamala Harris could assume the top of the ticket in most states, but where disputed the courts ruled that though the ballots could not be changed, electoral votes cast for Joe Biden would be awarded to Kamala Harris.  The campaigns became very polarized, when the media and democratic activists blaming Donald Trump for what happened to Joe Biden.  But a series of missteps and gaffs by Kamala Harris began to leave the impression she was perhaps not ready for prime time, and her increasingly partisan rhetoric made much of middle America nervous about whether she was the calm, unifying figure Joe Biden would have been.  A last minute stroke of luck for Donald Trump was that a few days before the final ballots were to be cast, Pfizer announced the first COVID vaccine was ready to be submitted for approval.  Another stroke of luck was when a narrowly divided US Supreme Court struck down the Pennsylvania mail in ballot laws, leaving Pennsylvania scrambling to have the elections ready in time, with Democrats crying foul and there was no way that every person who wanted a ballot could receive one in the scramble.

The election was close, with Trump narrowly carrying by a few thousand votes Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin.  Pennsylvania remained undecided on election night, and in the following weeks there were protests and riots in the streets.  The Supreme Court, by a vote cast by ACB, awarded Pennsylvania to Donald Trump.  Democrats retained control of the House by a 3 vote margin, and in the special election, Republicans lost the 2 Georgia Senate seats, controlling the Senate only by the vote of the vice president.  On inauguration day, there was violence in Washington as protestors tried to break up the inauguration (which Trump called "yuugge" and thumbed his nose at COVID restrictions)....protestors managed to even break into the Supreme Court and storm and occupy the building.

One of Trump's first actions was to fire Fauci.  Democrats in the House responded by launching another impeachment.  Trump kept the focus on the vaccination campaign, which most of the media described as clumsy in light of rising numbers, and despite Trump's deployment of the military to assist, which more often than not wound up being more of a hindrance than an assistance to vaccination efforts.  Nevertheless, by spring Trump promised that by the fourth of July things would all be over.  Scott Atlas, who came back to replace Fauci, told the nation to burn its masks by July 4.

It was a great surprise to everyone, though, when the Delta arose and it was apparent that breakthrough infections were possible.  Trump's poll numbers, already low, took another yuge hit, sinking into the low 30s.  Despite his attempts to change the narrative by withdrawing from Afghanistan (a withdrawal which led to the rapid collapse of the Kabul regime and Trump having to send in more troops to protect Kabul while western civilians and Afghan allies were evacuated), Trump couldn't seem to catch a break, being also plagued by rising inflation being caused by supply and labor shortages.  The media labelled Trump the most unpopular president since Jimmy Carter.

A desperate Trump engaged in widespread firings of military officers and staffers.  Even Scott Atlas was fired.  It was even being thought that some Republicans might sign onto the renewed Democratic impeachment effort (other than Romney and Murkowski who had already signaled they were ready to join).  Fauci from retirement and his allies called for the United States to be locked down again, especially in light of vaccine targets only reaching about 45% of the population fully vaxxed due to the large number of refusals.  But Trump, enamored by data coming out of the UK about natural immunity, and pressured by his base which was eager to move on from the pandemic, and eyeing figures showing the US economy was dangerously close to stagflation, refused.  When California and New York attempted to promulgate limited lockdowns, vaccine mandates and mask mandates, Trump directed OSHA to promulgate regulations to prohibit employers from doing so on the grounds that it would prolong the pandemic and be a danger to those experiencing the peak of their vaccine immunity.  Even when the UK (not wishing to be associated with the Trump plan, dubbed Sweden 2.0) reversed course, Trump stayed on course despite rising case numbers in August.  When the Supreme Court told him he had overstepped his authority in a narrow 5-4 vote, Trump declared "That traitor Roberts has made his decision, now let's see if he has the guts to enforce it".  In the early days of September, with Proud Boys roaming the streets tearing off masks of people who defied the bans (despite the President's lukewarm repudiation of such tactics), a weary nation wondered what would happen next and what the Democratic House and courts would do to check Donald Trump.  The only perhaps silver lining is vaccination numbers took a sharp rise, particularly in blue states, with people worried about the rising Delta case number and rising hospitalizations.  Then the teachers in Los Angeles Unified School district walked out on strike, once again effectively shutting down the schools.....

TBC......


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You think we should watch a Campbell video as a way to learn official government policy.
> 
> Why not a Boris Johnson video?  Or an NHS video?  Is the sovereign government of the United Kingdom suddenly incapable of speaking for itself?


He does a good job summarizing, and like I said, he's was a hard core masker (still is a light one).  The problem with government videos is it's propanganda....you should know better give your criticism of the wandering China troll on these forums.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> How's this?  An Alternative History of 2020-2021 (full disclaimer: yeah I know it's stupid....but most alt history is just silly and at times stupid)
> 
> Many Americans, regardless of political parties, mourned when Joe Biden passed away after contracting COVID from Donald Trump at the first 2020 debate.  There was a question of whether Kamala Harris could assume the top of the ticket in most states, but where disputed the courts ruled that though the ballots could not be changed, electoral votes cast for Joe Biden would be awarded to Kamala Harris.  The campaigns became very polarized, when the media and democratic activists blaming Donald Trump for what happened to Joe Biden.  But a series of missteps and gaffs by Kamala Harris began to leave the impression she was perhaps not ready for prime time, and her increasingly partisan rhetoric made much of middle America nervous about whether she was the calm, unifying figure Joe Biden would have been.  A last minute stroke of luck for Donald Trump was that a few days before the final ballots were to be cast, Pfizer announced the first COVID vaccine was ready to be submitted for approval.  Another stroke of luck was when a narrowly divided US Supreme Court struck down the Pennsylvania mail in ballot laws, leaving Pennsylvania scrambling to have the elections ready in time, with Democrats crying foul and there was no way that every person who wanted a ballot could receive one in the scramble.
> 
> The election was close, with Trump narrowly carrying by a few thousand votes Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin.  Pennsylvania remained undecided on election night, and in the following weeks there were protests and riots in the streets.  The Supreme Court, by a vote cast by ACB, awarded Pennsylvania to Donald Trump.  Democrats retained control of the House by a 3 vote margin, and in the special election, Republicans lost the 2 Georgia Senate seats, controlling the Senate only by the vote of the vice president.  On inauguration day, there was violence in Washington as protestors tried to break up the inauguration (which Trump called "yuugge" and thumbed his nose at COVID restrictions)....protestors managed to even break into the Supreme Court and storm and occupy the building.
> 
> One of Trump's first actions was to fire Fauci.  Democrats in the House responded by launching another impeachment.  Trump kept the focus on the vaccination campaign, which most of the media described as clumsy in light of rising numbers, and despite Trump's deployment of the military to assist, which more often than not wound up being more of a hindrance than an assistance to vaccination efforts.  Nevertheless, by spring Trump promised that by the fourth of July things would all be over.  Scott Atlas, who came back to replace Fauci, told the nation to burn its masks by July 4.
> 
> It was a great surprise to everyone, though, when the Delta arose and it was apparent that breakthrough infections were possible.  Trump's poll numbers, already low, took another yuge hit, sinking into the low 30s.  Despite his attempts to change the narrative by withdrawing from Afghanistan (a withdrawal which led to the rapid collapse of the Kabul regime and Trump having to send in more troops to protect Kabul while western civilians and Afghan allies were evacuated), Trump couldn't seem to catch a break, being also plagued by rising inflation being caused by supply and labor shortages.  The media labelled Trump the most unpopular president since Jimmy Carter.
> 
> A desperate Trump engaged in widespread firings of military officers and staffers.  Even Scott Atlas was fired.  It was even being thought that some Republicans might sign onto the renewed Democratic impeachment effort (other than Romney and Murkowski who had already signaled they were ready to join).  Fauci from retirement and his allies called for the United States to be locked down again, especially in light of vaccine targets only reaching about 45% of the population fully vaxxed due to the large number of refusals.  But Trump, enamored by data coming out of the UK about natural immunity, and pressured by his base which was eager to move on from the pandemic, and eyeing figures showing the US economy was dangerously close to stagflation, refused.  When California and New York attempted to promulgate limited lockdowns, vaccine mandates and mask mandates, Trump directed OSHA to promulgate regulations to prohibit employers from doing so on the grounds that it would prolong the pandemic and be a danger to those experiencing the peak of their vaccine immunity.  Even when the UK (not wishing to be associated with the Trump plan, dubbed Sweden 2.0) reversed course, Trump stayed on course despite rising case numbers in August.  When the Supreme Court told him he had overstepped his authority in a narrow 5-4 vote, Trump declared "That traitor Roberts has made his decision, now let's see if he has the guts to enforce it".  In the early days of September, with Proud Boys roaming the streets tearing off masks of people who defied the bans (despite the President's lukewarm repudiation of such tactics), a weary nation wondered what would happen next and what the Democratic House and courts would do to check Donald Trump.  The only perhaps silver lining is vaccination numbers took a sharp rise, particularly in blue states, with people worried about the rising Delta case number and rising hospitalizations.  Then the teachers in Los Angeles Unified School district walked out on strike, once again effectively shutting down the schools.....
> 
> TBC......


T was already lower than Carter.  In fact, he was the lowest since the popularity polling began in Truman's time.









						Presidential Approval Ratings -- Gallup Historical Statistics and Trends
					

Do you approve or disapprove of the way ... is handling his job as president?




					news.gallup.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> T was already lower than Carter.  In fact, he was the lowest since the popularity polling began in Truman's time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presidential Approval Ratings -- Gallup Historical Statistics and Trends
> 
> 
> Do you approve or disapprove of the way ... is handling his job as president?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.gallup.com


o.k.  I should have said "worst"...I was trying to reflect the line being thrown around by Rs right now calling Biden the worst President since Carter...maybe "worst since Nixon".


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> He does a good job summarizing, and like I said, he's was a hard core masker (still is a light one).  The problem with government videos is it's propanganda....you should know better give your criticism of the wandering China troll on these forums.


Given your history, I'd be careful with summarizing.  Too easy to get it wrong.

In this case, if you think any western government is promoting covid infection as a path to natural immunity, I'd say you have it wrong.  

That kind of logic is in Jacob Zuma/Chairman Mao territory.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> Are you Dad4?  I heard a rumor that you were me.


Man we have to leverage this somehow.  "Free EOTL"...."We are all EOTL"...."When all else fails, EOLTize it"


----------



## met61

Come on folks, we're being played.









						Members of Congress and their staff are exempt from Biden's vaccine mandate
					

The president's executive orders apply to employees of the executive branch and federal government contractors.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> Nearly 8,000,000,000 people living on this planet. I’d say immune system’s had something to do with that. How about you?


Hold on here Big Bruddah. 

By my math in this world of 8 billion we have 4.6 million deaths. 
When you divide that into 8 billion you get 0.000575

And we are shutting down schools, biz, travel, etc based on that number? 

Ridiculous. And that is about 2 yrs into this. And we play security/safety theater on this? 

If anything you look at that number and think ok...not much of a threat.

Context and perspective are rather important things.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I'm sorry that you have friends that feel that way and are playing the victim card.  I suspect very few of those that aren't getting the shot believe that they are filled with computer chips and can make you magnetic, those people are idiots.  Most normal people are vaccinated and living their lives as usual.  They've done their part and aren't looking to scapegoat anyone else.
> 
> On the flip side, it takes a special kind of person to not understand that immunity from prior infection is vastly superior to vaccinated immunity.


Most "normal" people?  What do you mean by that.  Looking at Orange County...just about 60% fully vaccinated.  Does that mean 40% of Orange County folks aren't "normal"?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Given your history, I'd be careful with summarizing.  Too easy to get it wrong.
> 
> In this case, if you think any western government is promoting covid infection as a path to natural immunity, I'd say you have it wrong.
> 
> That kind of logic is in Jacob Zuma/Chairman Mao territory.


Didn't your side tar Sweden with the same line? 

The UK (actually England) and Denmark have lifted most restrictions.  It's Sweden 2.0  I'm not saying vaccinations aren't a large part of the equation...what they are pursuing is only possible because of very wide vaccination (natural immunity is just the booster).   Boosters for the vulnerable are also on the table.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Come on folks, we're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Members of Congress and their staff are exempt from Biden's vaccine mandate
> 
> 
> The president's executive orders apply to employees of the executive branch and federal government contractors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


There's a reason for this....it's because the courts have been reluctant to allow the executive to tell Congress and the federal courts how they should conduct their business.  It was the same with Obamacare...Congress was exempt.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> When I become president (god help us all) I'm going to mandate Peloton bikes and no smoking.


I could get behind that....


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> Fact...but unscientific:
> 
> I am vaccinated. Recently, I contracted Covid, along with 2 other vax & 1 unvax, from another vax. I then spread to my vax spouse and my unvax teen = cases grew within a vaccinated population.
> 
> So, as I always ask...now what? or...then what?


Did you die?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> o.k.  I should have said "worst"...I was trying to reflect the line being thrown around by Rs right now calling Biden the worst President since Carter...maybe "worst since Nixon".


Give it time. In the near present the historians judging presidents have a political axe to grind. 

Go out a 100 yrs and see what a dispassionate historian has to say. Most academics are leftists and right after O left they ranked him rather high despite few accomplishments. 

I am not arguing T should be high, middle or low in the pack. What I am saying regarding any Prez, give it time so politics doesn't come into play. 

The worst I think is when they ask the general public to rank presidents. Most of these people left or right cannot name their senators, who is Sec of State, where Germany is, etc. They can however tell you what the Kardashians are wearing and are usually spot on.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> There's a reason for this....it's because the courts have been reluctant to allow the executive to tell Congress and the federal courts how they should conduct their business.  It was the same with Obamacare...Congress was exempt.


On one hand it makes sense. One branch cannot tell the other what to do. On the other hand continually we see gov exempt from what they require of the rest of the masses. And to be honest that is a problem. Amongst many.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Give it time. In the near present the historians judging presidents have a political axe to grind.
> 
> Go out a 100 yrs and see what a dispassionate historian has to say. Most academics are leftists and right after O left they ranked him rather high despite few accomplishments.
> 
> I am not arguing T should be high, middle or low in the pack. What I am saying regarding any Prez, give it time so politics doesn't come into play.
> 
> The worst I think is when they ask the general public to rank presidents. Most of these people left or right cannot name their senators, who is Sec of State, where Germany is, etc. They can however tell you what the Kardashians are wearing and are usually spot on.


Fair.  My little story though assumes Trump has the same challenges as Biden, many of which were unavoidable...perhaps with a little more recklessness but somewhat greater competence.  He tries to move on by forcing a UK approach...the blue states resist.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> How's this?  An Alternative History of 2020-2021 (full disclaimer: yeah I know it's stupid....but most alt history is just silly and at times stupid)
> 
> Many Americans, regardless of political parties, mourned when Joe Biden passed away after contracting COVID from Donald Trump at the first 2020 debate.  There was a question of whether Kamala Harris could assume the top of the ticket in most states, but where disputed the courts ruled that though the ballots could not be changed, electoral votes cast for Joe Biden would be awarded to Kamala Harris.  The campaigns became very polarized, when the media and democratic activists blaming Donald Trump for what happened to Joe Biden.  But a series of missteps and gaffs by Kamala Harris began to leave the impression she was perhaps not ready for prime time, and her increasingly partisan rhetoric made much of middle America nervous about whether she was the calm, unifying figure Joe Biden would have been.  A last minute stroke of luck for Donald Trump was that a few days before the final ballots were to be cast, Pfizer announced the first COVID vaccine was ready to be submitted for approval.  Another stroke of luck was when a narrowly divided US Supreme Court struck down the Pennsylvania mail in ballot laws, leaving Pennsylvania scrambling to have the elections ready in time, with Democrats crying foul and there was no way that every person who wanted a ballot could receive one in the scramble.
> 
> The election was close, with Trump narrowly carrying by a few thousand votes Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin.  Pennsylvania remained undecided on election night, and in the following weeks there were protests and riots in the streets.  The Supreme Court, by a vote cast by ACB, awarded Pennsylvania to Donald Trump.  Democrats retained control of the House by a 3 vote margin, and in the special election, Republicans lost the 2 Georgia Senate seats, controlling the Senate only by the vote of the vice president.  On inauguration day, there was violence in Washington as protestors tried to break up the inauguration (which Trump called "yuugge" and thumbed his nose at COVID restrictions)....protestors managed to even break into the Supreme Court and storm and occupy the building.
> 
> One of Trump's first actions was to fire Fauci.  Democrats in the House responded by launching another impeachment.  Trump kept the focus on the vaccination campaign, which most of the media described as clumsy in light of rising numbers, and despite Trump's deployment of the military to assist, which more often than not wound up being more of a hindrance than an assistance to vaccination efforts.  Nevertheless, by spring Trump promised that by the fourth of July things would all be over.  Scott Atlas, who came back to replace Fauci, told the nation to burn its masks by July 4.
> 
> It was a great surprise to everyone, though, when the Delta arose and it was apparent that breakthrough infections were possible.  Trump's poll numbers, already low, took another yuge hit, sinking into the low 30s.  Despite his attempts to change the narrative by withdrawing from Afghanistan (a withdrawal which led to the rapid collapse of the Kabul regime and Trump having to send in more troops to protect Kabul while western civilians and Afghan allies were evacuated), Trump couldn't seem to catch a break, being also plagued by rising inflation being caused by supply and labor shortages.  The media labelled Trump the most unpopular president since Jimmy Carter.
> 
> A desperate Trump engaged in widespread firings of military officers and staffers.  Even Scott Atlas was fired.  It was even being thought that some Republicans might sign onto the renewed Democratic impeachment effort (other than Romney and Murkowski who had already signaled they were ready to join).  Fauci from retirement and his allies called for the United States to be locked down again, especially in light of vaccine targets only reaching about 45% of the population fully vaxxed due to the large number of refusals.  But Trump, enamored by data coming out of the UK about natural immunity, and pressured by his base which was eager to move on from the pandemic, and eyeing figures showing the US economy was dangerously close to stagflation, refused.  When California and New York attempted to promulgate limited lockdowns, vaccine mandates and mask mandates, Trump directed OSHA to promulgate regulations to prohibit employers from doing so on the grounds that it would prolong the pandemic and be a danger to those experiencing the peak of their vaccine immunity.  Even when the UK (not wishing to be associated with the Trump plan, dubbed Sweden 2.0) reversed course, Trump stayed on course despite rising case numbers in August.  When the Supreme Court told him he had overstepped his authority in a narrow 5-4 vote, Trump declared "That traitor Roberts has made his decision, now let's see if he has the guts to enforce it".  In the early days of September, with Proud Boys roaming the streets tearing off masks of people who defied the bans (despite the President's lukewarm repudiation of such tactics), a weary nation wondered what would happen next and what the Democratic House and courts would do to check Donald Trump.  The only perhaps silver lining is vaccination numbers took a sharp rise, particularly in blue states, with people worried about the rising Delta case number and rising hospitalizations.  Then the teachers in Los Angeles Unified School district walked out on strike, once again effectively shutting down the schools.....
> 
> TBC......


Anyone have the Cliffs Notes?


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> There's a reason for this....it's because the courts have been reluctant to allow the executive to tell Congress and the federal courts how they should conduct their business.  It was the same with Obamacare...Congress was exempt.


Sure, that's it...*eye roll*


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Come on folks, we're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Members of Congress and their staff are exempt from Biden's vaccine mandate
> 
> 
> The president's executive orders apply to employees of the executive branch and federal government contractors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


Think about it.

The legislative and judicial branches are exempt because they don't fall under executive branch authority.  Biden isn't allowed to include them.

You can ask whether Pelosi and her staff are vaccinated.  The answer will be yes.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> Sure, that's it...*eye roll*


Do adults "eye roll" these days? I thought that that was just middle schoolers.  Or at least mine does....


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Do adults "eye roll" these days? I thought that that was just middle schoolers.  Or at least mine does....


...I'm sure they vie for attention with stupid questions as well. *blocked*


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> The legislative and judicial branches are exempt because they don't fall under executive branch authority.  Biden isn't allowed to include them.
> 
> You can ask whether Pelosi and her staff are vaccinated.  The answer will be yes.


Sure, and their kids and themselves follow mask mandates or business closures/protocols, right? ...be a sheepdog, not a sheep.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Sure, and their kids and themselves follow mask mandates or business closures/protocols, right? ...be a sheepdog, not a sheep.


In other words, you completely forgot a key part of high school government class.  Now, instead of admitting the mistake, you go for sarcasm and an insulting slogan you borrowed from the internet.

*eye roll*


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> You think we should watch a Campbell video as a way to learn official government policy.
> 
> Why not a Boris Johnson video?  Or an NHS video?  Is the sovereign government of the United Kingdom suddenly incapable of speaking for itself?


The UK government has a variety of contingency plans in preparation for a potential winter surge, *for England*, as health is devolved there and Scotland, Wales & N Ireland can and do have separate policies.

They include
- reintroduction of some nationwide restrictions such as social distancing or masks (based on NHS capacity)
- introduction of Covid boosters (at least for the most vulnerable but possibly wider)
- biggest ever flu jab campaign
- Covid passports to access large, crowded venues such as nightclubs
- shortly to give the go ahead for vaccination in children 12 to 15

UK (not England) vaccination rates are at 66% (of total population), with at least 1 shot at 72%.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> In other words, you completely forgot a key part of high school government class.  Now, instead of admitting the mistake, you go for sarcasm and an insulting slogan you borrowed from the internet.
> 
> *eye roll*


I see, so you believe politicians adhere to the Constitution, precedent, norms...and "key 
parts of high school government class."  The only mistake was yours... confusing sarcasm with reality.

Allow me to borrow another slogan from the internet... Ignorance is no excuse, or maybe... Book smart Street dumb. (Let me guess Professor, you want a citation).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The Campbell videos are useful because there does not seem to be any taint of political purpose to them.  However, his method of presentation gives mask and vaccine deniers hooks to hang from, even when it is plain they do not understand the whole content of what he is saying.  Those mistakes then become "data" others can support or point to in succeeding arguments.


Strawman


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> Actually, there may be a much more pronounced net impact differential, given the co-morbidity rate in the US with obesity alone as a factor.


The insurance companies will let us know what the impact i$.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Given your history, I'd be careful with summarizing.  Too easy to get it wrong.
> 
> In this case, if you think any western government is promoting covid infection as a path to natural immunity, I'd say you have it wrong.
> 
> That kind of logic is in Jacob Zuma/Chairman Mao territory.


Are you mad that your maker mandated immune systems for the nearly 8 billion people on this earth?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Hold on here Big Bruddah.
> 
> By my math in this world of 8 billion we have 4.6 million deaths.
> When you divide that into 8 billion you get 0.000575
> 
> And we are shutting down schools, biz, travel, etc based on that number?
> 
> Ridiculous. And that is about 2 yrs into this. And we play security/safety theater on this?
> 
> If anything you look at that number and think ok...not much of a threat.
> 
> Context and perspective are rather important things.


And you nor I will ever see those death certificates.  Dying with COVID and dying from COVID are not the same thing.  But what the data will show and already has shown is that we should not be surprised that people die.  The amount of fear leverage you get from .000575 could replace the statue of liberty with a strawman of the same size.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> The legislative and judicial branches are exempt because they don't fall under executive branch authority.  Biden isn't allowed to include them.
> 
> You can ask whether Pelosi and her staff are vaccinated.  The answer will be yes.


… is from page 61 of the late M. Stanton Evans’s 1976 Hillsdale College address, “The Liberal Twilight,” as it appears in _Champions of Freedom_ (Vol. 3, 1976):



> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


_*If one adopts the authoritarian premises, ultimately one is going to emerge with the authoritarian conclusions. The libertarian shell has fallen away, and we’re left with the bedrock principles of compulsion and the subjection of human beings to a planning elite.*_


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> The insurance companies will let us know what the impact i$.


Delta Airlines will charge unvaccinated employees an extra $200 per month from Nov. They (unvaccinated) will also face additional restrictions (starting Monday) including masking & testing. Delta self-insures and says that their avg hospitalization cost for Covid was $50K.

So, either expect everyone's insurance premiums to increase or, expect premiums for unvaccinated to increase.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Delta Airlines will charge unvaccinated employees an extra $200 per month from Nov. They (unvaccinated) will also face additional restrictions (starting Monday) including masking & testing. Delta self-insures and says that their avg hospitalization cost for Covid was $50K.
> 
> So, either expect everyone's insurance premiums to increase or, expect premiums for unvaccinated to increase.


Sorry.  I meant Life Insurance.  Interesting though.  Did Delta buy an insurance company?  Is that 50k per month or per hospitalization?


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> And you nor I will ever see those death certificates.


Is it that we won't see those death certificates or that the media won't look and report on them?  CDC seems to be keeping track, as a mentioned before, according to the CDC 95% of those that have died had 4 other causes of death, which means only about 33,000 died of Covid as the sole cause of death.  Could you imagine if a media outlet reported that fact?  They'd instantly be labeled as Covid deniers, purveyors of misinformation, banned from every social media platform, cause Don Lemon to crap his pants during a tirade of name calling, etc.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The other Delta


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Is it that we won't see those death certificates or that the media won't look and report on them?  CDC seems to be keeping track, as a mentioned before, according to the CDC 95% of those that have died had 4 other causes of death, which means only about 33,000 died of Covid as the sole cause of death.  Could you imagine if a media outlet reported that fact?  They'd instantly be labeled as Covid deniers, purveyors of misinformation, banned from every social media platform, cause Don Lemon to crap his pants during a tirade of name calling, etc.


Cancer and Heart Disease are the top two.  They've combined for well over a million deaths a year.  Both groups have been dealing with attacks on their compromised immune systems for years pre-cov 19 and one might think that Corona has cured both via the Strawman Syndrome erected by Dadspola and Vaxspola.  CDC has been tracking this stuff for at least 30 years since the MERS and SARS1 pandemics.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> Sorry.  I meant Life Insurance.  Interesting though.  Did Delta buy an insurance company?  Is that 50k per month or per hospitalization?


$50K per hospitalization (avg) apparently. The details of Delta's insurance plan are available online.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> $50K per hospitalization (avg) apparently. The details of Delta's insurance plan are available online.


Unfortunately, it seems you can't even walk by a hospital these days and not be charged $50k. (yes that's hyperbole)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Unfortunately, it seems you can't even walk by a hospital these days and not be charged $50k. (yes that's hyperbole)


Yeah, Americans are being stiffed on healthcare, have been for a long time and its not stopping any time soon.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Unfortunately, it seems you can't even walk by a hospital these days and not be charged $50k. (yes that's hyperbole)


Worldwide, .000076961139241 are infected (7 day avg.).  That comes out to a .01309884 IFR (7 day avg.).  Not surprisingly, the U.S. has a 7-day avg. IFR of .01659962.  That is nearly 25% of the worldwide cases.  Just waiting for the Jacobins to chime in.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Yeah, Americans are being stiffed on healthcare, have been for a long time and its not stopping any time soon.


That's because we allow 3rd parties to shop for our health needs, coupling both care and insurance in to one policy.  That's like coupling our car insurance with a maintenance car plan so insurance companies can charge more and then attaching that coverage to our employment.  I could have claimed the oil change, cv boot change and transmission fluid flush yesterday.  Universal Health coverage is particularly perverse in that it ignores risk pools while mandating that we take on those risk.  Not much incentive for people to look after themselves so that they don't feel like the victims of a virus that has all the symptoms of the common cold


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.




IFR .003


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Where is the authority that says a county cannot implement a mask or vaccine mandate unless Newsom has declared a state of emergency, as you claimed?
> 
> Where is the statute or case that says Health and Safety Code 120175 only allows a county to burn livestock and applies apparently only to measles, but does not allow a local health agency to implement mask or vaccine mandates in a pandemic without a state of emergency being declared?
> 
> How does your "analysis" of the US Constitution have anything to do with the extent to which California can, or in this case did, delegate authority to local jurisdictions to implement mask or even vaccine mandates?
> 
> The only schtick is that you keep lying and personally attacking those who definitively prove that you are lying. Are you going to start talking bs about "natural order" again since actual laws and how governments actually work are beyond your comprehension?


That reads more like.  "Where is the" DICTATORSHIP "that says a county cannot implement a mask or vaccine mandate unless Newsom has declared a state of emergency, as you claimed?"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> The only hostility here came from you.  I did not personally attack you until you started making personal comments like the above to me and others.  I cited the statute that says you were wrong and the California Constitutional provision that says you are wrong, and your response is stuff like this.  You don't want to discuss this in a public forum any more because you can't.  All you have are personal attacks.  That is the only thing you can do when you are exposed for the fraud that you are.
> 
> Where is the law, court case, statute, regulation, constitutional provision or anything that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate other than if a state of emergency is declared?  You are the "strict constructionist", so it must exist in plain and unambiguous language, right? For a "strict constructionist" it should be incredibly easy to point out the plain and unambiguous law that says a county cannot implement a mask mandate unless a state of emergency is declared.


Agree!!  It must be unambiguous.  It should read "Where is the law, court case, statute, regulation, constitutional provision or anything that says a" DICTATORSHIP "cannot implement a mask mandate other than if a state of emergency is declared?" 



GoldenGate said:


> You are the "strict constructionist", so it must exist in plain and unambiguous language, right?


Right.  *Denying young healthy immune systems natural infection threatens us all.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> My how things change. I know they are memes....but...
> 
> View attachment 11619
> 
> And it seems just a few months ago it was Jim Crow to demand and ID that everyone has...but today?
> 
> By the way as of mid Aug about half of NY City was not vaxxed.
> 
> View attachment 11620


Delta missed the basic human right part?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The 'natural immunity is unreliable' theory has done a lot of damage. It's OK to have a wrong hypothesis but public health leaders have pushed their theory way too long after data became overwhelmingly clear,yet remarkably clinging to their outdated theory https://c-span.org/video/?512225-3/washington-journal-dr-marty-makary-discusses-book-the-price-pay-health-care-system


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Yeah, Americans are being stiffed on healthcare, have been for a long time and its not stopping any time soon.


<iframe width=512 height=330 src='https://www.c-span.org/video/standalone/?c4976518/user-clip-us-healthcare' allowfullscreen='allowfullscreen' frameborder=0></iframe>


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Delta Airlines will charge unvaccinated employees an extra $200 per month from Nov. They (unvaccinated) will also face additional restrictions (starting Monday) including masking & testing. Delta self-insures and says that their avg hospitalization cost for Covid was $50K.
> 
> So, either expect everyone's insurance premiums to increase or, expect premiums for unvaccinated to increase.


This would actually have been a good way to do it....to have the admin lean on the insurance companies.  Would have been legal and avoided the constitutional fight he picked with a mandate.


----------



## Grace T.

And they wonder why they won't trust them.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436553883829121030


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> This would actually have been a good way to do it....to have the admin lean on the insurance companies.  Would have been legal and avoided the constitutional fight he picked with a mandate.


Yep but it’s fashionable to be a dictator nowadays


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> This would actually have been a good way to do it....to have the admin lean on the insurance companies.  Would have been legal and avoided the constitutional fight he picked with a mandate.


Open enrollment is usually last Q, so expect this to hit soon is my expectation. The mandate just gives the insurance companies extra ammunition.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Open enrollment is usually last Q, so expect this to hit soon is my expectation. The mandate just gives the insurance companies extra ammunition.


It's not the way it works...they have to set up a new verification system like they do for smoking.  The mandate, if any, discourages from doing this because it's mandated (so why do the work).  But in this case, it may happen because the insurance companies are either banking on or suspicious the mandate will be struck down in the courts.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> And they wonder why they won't trust them.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436553883829121030


That marketing, science magician lady with the gray short hair is a lying POD, end of story.   One dude is all, "let's chat offline."  Hey dummy, were all being watched online or not online.  Nowhere to run or hide.  Time to confess!!!  I've been warning everyone to watch what you allow into your blood stream.  BTW, she reminds me of one of my old atheist science teachers who I debated for a semester.  This lady had the worse breath too. Anyway, she was fascinated by me and wanted to understand my position of God more and a woman's right to kill her kid.  I would meet with her for coffee.  I liked her but we were at odds with God and life.  These people are all the same I think.  They hate God or don;t believe in him/her at all.  They think their the smartest too ((because they play with science and lie with numbers to suit their own agenda)).  They especially hate people like me.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> And they wonder why they won't trust them.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436553883829121030


I'll keep saying it...we're being played.


----------



## MicPaPa

met61 said:


> I'll keep saying it...we're being played.


Thanks Captain Obvious.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The UK government has a variety of contingency plans in preparation for a potential winter surge, *for England*, as health is devolved there and Scotland, Wales & N Ireland can and do have separate policies.
> 
> They include
> - reintroduction of some nationwide restrictions such as social distancing or masks (based on NHS capacity)
> - introduction of Covid boosters (at least for the most vulnerable but possibly wider)
> - biggest ever flu jab campaign
> - Covid passports to access large, crowded venues such as nightclubs
> - shortly to give the go ahead for vaccination in children 12 to 15
> 
> UK (not England) vaccination rates are at 66% (of total population), with at least 1 shot at 72%.


British press is reporting Johnson will outline winter plans for England (the other kingdoms being subject to local control) on Tuesday:

1. they dropped the vaccine passport for most venues (likely remains for some like air travel). There was a study that said the passport makes the holdouts less likely to get it, and if their scientists are right and the vaccine is like the flu vaccine (and not chicken pox) and people can still transmit, there’s no point
2. Boosters for folks that want them with vulnerable getting first priority.
3. a flu jab campaign
4. The go ahead will likely be given for 12-15 but not mandates.  If the Uk scientists are right, it does nothing to help this age group (in which the unvaccinated are safer than a vaxxed 50 year old) and the vaccines may only help limit (not control) community soread
5. The coronavirus act will be allowed to expire but the pm will maintain broad powers to mask and lockdown under the health act. But there will be no plans (only contingencies) for winter as the uk is placing it’s better on vaccination.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

A New York hospital has been forced to temporarily stop delivering babies after several staff quit over the vaccine mandate
					

Lewis County General Hospital will pause a key maternity service after September 24 so that the hospital can recruit vaccinated staff.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> British press is reporting Johnson will outline winter plans for England (the other kingdoms being subject to local control) on Tuesday:
> 
> 1. they dropped the vaccine passport for most venues (likely remains for some like air travel). There was a study that said the passport makes the holdouts less likely to get it, and if their scientists are right and the vaccine is like the flu vaccine (and not chicken pox) and people can still transmit, there’s no point
> 2. Boosters for folks that want them with vulnerable getting first priority.
> 3. a flu jab campaign
> 4. The go ahead will likely be given for 12-15 but not mandates.  If the Uk scientists are right, it does nothing to help this age group (in which the unvaccinated are safer than a vaxxed 50 year old) and the vaccines may only help limit (not control) community soread
> 5. The coronavirus act will be allowed to expire but the pm will maintain broad powers to mask and lockdown under the health act. But there will be no plans (only contingencies) for winter as the uk is placing it’s better on vaccination.


Harrison Pitt draws lessons for 2020-2021 from Hayek’s 1944 book, _The Road to Serfdom_. Two slices:

While the situation varies across the Anglosphere, in all of its countries, from Australia to Britain, the relationship between the individual and the state has fundamentally transformed — and these conditions will likely outlive the pandemic. Sydney remains under a draconian lockdown, as does New Zealand after the discovery of just one case of the coronavirus. The British and Canadian governments intend to make freedom conditional on state-issued vaccine passports, while President Joe Biden, fresh from his Afghanistan debacle, recently called on parents to mask up their children when they leave the house.

These measures can easily be relaxed or intensified by government officials at a moment’s notice. But while restrictions can be tweaked, few in power have renounced the overarching authority they represent. In this sense, they are symbols of an abiding new normal, which, before 2020, was utterly unthinkable in free societies.

*Hayek’s defense of liberty was driven by more than a moral revulsion to state force. He also argued that letting individuals take personal responsibility for their lives makes greater practical sense. Hayek’s ingenious arguments against a centrally run economy, therefore, are equally devastating to the idea of a centrally run biosecurity state.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Hayek also understood that such temporary measures, implemented for a limited purpose, rarely remain that way. *In _Law, Legislation and Liberty_, Hayek accepted that sometimes the liberal order ‘may yet have to be temporarily suspended when the long-run preservation of that order is itself threatened. *During such emergencies, be it a war on germs or Germans,* protecting civil society itself becomes the ‘overruling common purpose’.

But when defined vaguely enough, that ‘overruling common purpose’ can be invoked to continue denying liberty even after the initial threat has waned or passed. As Hayek wrote, *‘”Emergencies” have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded — and once they are suspended it is not difficult for anyone who has assumed emergency powers to see to it that the emergency will persist.’

If anything, it is harder for governments to relinquish such powers. Once people get attached to the idea of a benevolent, all-caring state, it appears compassionless to return to normal. COVID restrictions were initially put in place to ‘slow the spread’ so that hospitals would not be overwhelmed with patients. Now, public health officials use them for a myriad of different purposes: to minimize ‘long COVID’ or to prevent cases entirely.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Covid vaccine passports scrapped for winter by Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson will announce this week that he is scrapping plans that would have required vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs, cinemas and sports grounds.

On Tuesday, the prime minister will announce plans to try to keep Covid under control over the winter. He will say that he has abandoned the proposed compulsory certification scheme, which would have forced venues to check people’s vaccine status.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Delta is Dying

An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

*Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No.  I freely admit that we could be over this in a couple months if we used crop dusters to spray live Delta virus over the whole population.
> 
> Then just wait a few days.  Anyone still alive must be immune!
> 
> It's just a bad idea, that's all.


A Subtle Catastrophe

The Biden plan rests on mutually exclusive premises. *First, there is the implicit assertion that the vaccines work. Indeed, they work so well that we should force 80 million people to get vaccinated, whether they want to or not. This, of course, flies in the face of the other presupposition: that we need to vaccinate damn near everyone because people are simply not safe otherwise.

Aren’t those who voluntarily took a vaccine already protected? If not, the vaccines are not all that effective, and mandating them will not make them any more so. If that’s not the objective, are we really protecting the anti-vaxxers from themselves? Since when is that an appropriate use of government power? Either way, forcing people to submit to a vaccine they don’t want as a condition of their continued employment doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.*


----------



## crush

Quiz for the day:  Multiple choice too for those WHO need to take a stab in the dark.  WHO said, "If you don't get vaccinated, your going to die" and that hospitals should become "scary" and look to "inflate" the Divoc A.I. numbers to sound like death is right around the corner.

A.  Espola/EOTL
B.  Golden Gate/EOTL
C.  Husker/EOTL
D.  Dr. Rudyk/McDonald Marketing Group and the Rest


----------



## crush

*"Unfortunately, as a country, we have experience in dealing with exemptions, but we've got to be vigilant there and make sure that people are using them, you know, in the spirit that they're intended and not abusing them or asking for exemptions when they don't apply," Murthy told CNN’s "State of the Union." "That's an area that we continue to monitor in the days and weeks ahead." *


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 11631


What a Bozo.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...I'm sure they vie for attention with stupid questions as well. *blocked*


Wait, is this true? @met61 blocked me. Oh no. What am I to do? 

Is this when I should "eye roll"?


----------



## NorCalDad

whatithink said:


> Yeah, Americans are being stiffed on healthcare, have been for a long time and its not stopping any time soon.


If only there was something we could do about that.


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> Wait, is this true? @met61 blocked me. Oh no. What am I to do?
> 
> Is this when I should "eye roll"?


Many school kids cyberbylly as well.


----------



## MacDre

NorCalDad said:


> Wait, is this true? @met61 blocked me. Oh no. What am I to do?
> 
> Is this when I should "eye roll"?


Dude doesn’t seem to like folks from Norcal.  I’d recommend that you stop being a stereotypical Norcal Hippie and moving to the OC and hanging with the homie Crush if you want to get unblocked.

Will that work @met61?


----------



## met61

You're being played...









						Check this video… Democrats don’t wear masks until media shows up…
					

Dozens of democrats in New York City don’t wear masks until reporters and cameras show up         Nadler, AOC, Pelosi…




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## NorCalDad

MacDre said:


> Dude doesn’t seem to like folks from Norcal.  I’d recommend that you stop being a stereotypical Norcal Hippie and moving to the OC and hanging with the homie Crush if you want to get unblocked.
> 
> Will that work @met61?


You could be right @MacDre.  Maybe, someday, @met61, @crush and myself can be buds someday.  One can dream.  

Until then, I will go back to burning incense while listening to The Dead in my hot tub.  You know, doing those stereotypical NorCal things.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Dude doesn’t seem to like folks from Norcal.  I’d recommend that you stop being a stereotypical Norcal Hippie and moving to the OC and hanging with the homie Crush if you want to get unblocked.
> 
> Will that work @met61?


Dre and NoCalDad, free surf lessons for you and your goats if you come to the Great OC.  Free!!!  I love all you guys from NoCal.  OC is now the new melting pot of all things that are cool and hip.  Catch me why I'm still in South OC


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> You could be right @MacDre.  Maybe, someday, @met61, @crush and myself can be buds someday.  *One can dream. *
> 
> Until then, I will go back to burning incense while listening to The Dead in my hot tub.  You know, doing those stereotypical NorCal things.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

This is not a joke. The Chinese national hockey team just arrived in Sweden. Seriously afraid of coming to Covid Land. Curious to know how they will dress for match in the graveyard of ambition when it comes to handling the pandemic.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> You could be right @MacDre.  Maybe, someday, @met61, @crush and myself can be buds someday.  One can dream.
> 
> Until then, I will go back to burning incense while listening to The Dead in my hot tub.  You know, doing those stereotypical NorCal things.


http://rosenwriting.blogspot.com/2006/04/61-reasons-to-hate-grateful-dead.html


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Dude doesn’t seem to like folks from Norcal.  I’d recommend that you stop being a stereotypical Norcal Hippie and moving to the OC and hanging with the homie Crush if you want to get unblocked.
> 
> Will that work @met61?


Excellent idea! Why don't you both jump on I80 east and keep driving till it ends, we'll see you when you get here.


----------



## Grace T.

Apparently now it's the twin threats of flu and COVID.  This is the debate that's emerging in the blue states (it looks like Europe is over it and will be trying to return to normal....slowly but surely): whether there ever is such a thing as back to normal where schools go back without disruptions/masks and the offices actually open up.  At least he's actually off the idea of zero COVID.










						A Second Major Seasonal Virus Won’t Leave Us Any Choice
					

Businesses and schools must adapt, because the dual threat from COVID and the flu will be too severe.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> That reads more like.  "Where is the" DICTATORSHIP "that says a county cannot implement a mask or vaccine mandate unless Newsom has declared a state of emergency, as you claimed?"


I'd think even you would agree a system of government that allows local elected officials to adopt local ordinances is the opposite of a dictatorship, but it is pretty clear that you define "dictatorship" as any form of government that doesn't give you what you want, including when decisions are made by officials elected by an overwhelming majority of voters.  You wanted the president making the decisions up until the majority elected someone who disagreed with you.  Then you wanted state government to make the decisions up until the majority disagreed with you also.  Then you wanted local elected officials to make the decisions up until they also disagreed with you. Your post is a perfect example how people like you aren't serious.  You don't care about thoughtful discussion or facts. Nothing you say is credible.

Grace T., how do you feel about his understanding of different forms of government?  Do you agree that a system of government in which local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship"?  If not, why stay silent when those who share your hostility towards vaccines, masks, and the seriousness of Covid-19 say crazy things like this? Is it because you need all the crazies if you are to get what you want?  Do you rationalize actual dictatorship under some "strict constructionist" bs that democracy should really just be whatever it takes for the ends justifying the means, as long as they are the ends that you prefer?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Apparently now it's the twin threats of flu and COVID.  This is the debate that's emerging in the blue states (it looks like Europe is over it and will be trying to return to normal....slowly but surely): whether there ever is such a thing as back to normal where schools go back without disruptions/masks and the offices actually open up.  At least he's actually off the idea of zero COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Second Major Seasonal Virus Won’t Leave Us Any Choice
> 
> 
> Businesses and schools must adapt, because the dual threat from COVID and the flu will be too severe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


So, one opinion piece in the Atlantic now implies a complete change to government policy and social norms on two continents?

Dang.  That is one powerful magazine.


----------



## Grace T.

NIH orders $1.67M study on how COVID-19 vaccine impacts menstrual cycle
					

The National Institutes of Health will spend $1.67 million to investigate a possible hidden link between the COVID-19 vaccine and reproductive health as some report irregular periods following vacc…




					nypost.com


----------



## Grace T.

No sports, no clubs, no talking during lunch and other joys of COVID schooling
					

Monday is the first day of school in Gotham’s public system. And it’s on track to be the third needlessly disrupted academic year for kids.




					nypost.com
				




If you think California schools are bad.....


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, one opinion piece in the Atlantic now implies a complete change to government policy and social norms on two continents?
> 
> Dang.  That is one powerful magazine.


You didn't look at the by line, did you???  It's Scott Gottlieb.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> NIH orders $1.67M study on how COVID-19 vaccine impacts menstrual cycle
> 
> 
> The National Institutes of Health will spend $1.67 million to investigate a possible hidden link between the COVID-19 vaccine and reproductive health as some report irregular periods following vacc…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


This is a huge problem that very few outlets are reporting.  "They" claim that it doesn't impact fertility,  but this is incredibly disingenuous since "they" have no clue about the long term effects.  Fertility isn't just a slice in time.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> No sports, no clubs, no talking during lunch and other joys of COVID schooling
> 
> 
> Monday is the first day of school in Gotham’s public system. And it’s on track to be the third needlessly disrupted academic year for kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think California schools are bad.....


There are so many failures in NY with Covid that they have to err on the side of extreme restrictions.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> This is a huge problem that very few outlets are reporting.  "They" claim that it doesn't impact fertility,  but this is incredibly disingenuous since "they" have no clue about the long term effects.  Fertility isn't just a slice in time.


Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				











						Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
					

When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...




					www.muhealth.org
				











						Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
					

To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.




					jamanetwork.com
				











						The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
					

The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org
				











						COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
					

The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women




					www.scientificamerican.com
				











						COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
					

Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.




					www.uchicagomedicine.org
				











						Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
					

Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.




					apnews.com
				











						Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
					

Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.




					www.uchealth.org
				





			Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
		





__





						Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
					

Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.




					www.cincinnatichildrens.org
				




The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).









						SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
					

Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.




					www.fox5atlanta.com
				





			https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
		









						Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
					

Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.




					abcnews.go.com
				





			https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
		









						‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
					

Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.




					www.wistv.com
				











						Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
					

Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.




					www.nbcnews.com
				











						Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
					

LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.




					www.fox5vegas.com
				











						SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
					

A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…




					ktla.com
				





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> This is a huge problem that very few outlets are reporting.  "They" claim that it doesn't impact fertility,  but this is incredibly disingenuous since "they" have no clue about the long term effects.  Fertility isn't just a slice in time.


That gets back to what I was talking about earlier.

We have zero long term studies on potential bad side effects of the various vaccines. 

How can we mandate it with that in mind? 

How can we mandate it on the majority of people who as it stands now have no real risk of covid? 

Not good policy.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth. In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone. They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.


Actually they don't. 

The covid vaccine is new. There are no long term studies on it. 

You seem to have a problem with the concept of long term and short term. 

But try your google skills. See if you can pull up any long term studies on these new vaccines. Unless you can magically transport yourself to the future, your search will be in vain.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
> 
> 
> When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.muhealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
> 
> 
> To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hopkinsmedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
> 
> 
> Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchicagomedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
> 
> 
> Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
> 
> 
> Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnatichildrens.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wistv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
> 
> 
> Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
> 
> 
> A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktla.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/


Impressive research.  But what many experts (lab jockeys) claim and what is reality are two completely different things.  You have no clue of my situation.  Furthermore, its already been explained to you by another poster the definition of "long term", your failure to understand that is either intentional or blissful ignorance.  No one has a crystal ball regardless of how many degrees they may have or what colleges they attend.


----------



## what-happened

[/QUOTE]


GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
> 
> 
> When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.muhealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
> 
> 
> To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hopkinsmedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
> 
> 
> Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchicagomedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
> 
> 
> Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
> 
> 
> Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnatichildrens.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wistv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
> 
> 
> Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
> 
> 
> A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktla.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/


You are a soup sandwich.

The NIH has been working towards this research since MAY.  Clinical trials only collected  last menstrual cycle data, completely omitting or waiting for menstrual cycle outcomes post-vaccine.  Why?  don't really know, maybe the FDA senior execs who recently resigned can shed some light on process.

There is always concern how vaccines can impact fertility.  I don't know if you have ovaries, but it's a concern for many.  It's why vaccines undergo rigourous and sytematic investigation into the impacts of the menstruation cycle. In NIH's own words, they haven't done this for Pfizer, Moderna, and JJ.  Looks like they are about to do it.  Which is nice, except that millions of young women have been vaccinated.  So yes, if you have ovaries or are a parent of a DD, your ears should perk up.   Full blown panic shouldn't occure, but you should pay attention when NIH research funding is headline news.

The rest of your wall splatter post means nothing.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You didn't look at the by line, did you???  It's Scott Gottlieb.


So?  An epidemiologist predicts we all are going to start paying more attention to viruses.  Should I be surprised?

Next you’ll tell me that there is a famous computer geek who thinks we all will start using cryptography.  Or an aviation enthusiast who thinks flying cars are the way of the future.

People who write futurist articles tend to see themselves as a key part of the future.  It’s just they way we think.  Maybe I should write an article  about how kids in the future will all study really hard in their STEM classes.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'd think even you would agree a system of government that allows local elected officials to adopt local ordinances is the opposite of a dictatorship, but it is pretty clear that you define "dictatorship" as any form of government that doesn't give you what you want, including when decisions are made by officials elected by an overwhelming majority of voters.


Not sure why you thought I'd agree.



GoldenGate said:


> You wanted the president making the decisions up until the majority elected someone who disagreed with you.  Then you wanted state government to make the decisions up until the majority disagreed with you also.  Then you wanted local elected officials to make the decisions up until they also disagreed with you. Your post is a perfect example how people like you aren't serious.  You don't care about thoughtful discussion or facts. Nothing you say is credible.


I didn't want the Prez nor the CAGOV making any of the decisions during this scamdemic.  As far as my credibility goes you'll notice that most of what I post comes from those with credibility.  You're free to tell us how much smarter you are than the signers of The Great Barrington Declaration.



GoldenGate said:


> Grace T., how do you feel about his understanding of different forms of government?  Do you agree that a system of government in which local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship"?  If not, why stay silent when those who share your hostility towards vaccines, masks, and the seriousness of Covid-19 say crazy things like this? Is it because you need all the crazies if you are to get what you want?  Do you rationalize actual dictatorship under some "strict constructionist" bs that democracy should really just be whatever it takes for the ends justifying the means, as long as they are the ends that you prefer?


How about a government that protects individual liberty as opposed to the collectivist tyranny that you advocate?


----------



## met61

Have a family member whose menstrual cycle was consistent, then stopped for 3 months following Pfizer vax... I won't be rolling dice with my DD, it's irresponsible.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> So?  An epidemiologist predicts we all are going to start paying more attention to viruses.  Should I be surprised?
> 
> Next you’ll tell me that there is a famous computer geek who thinks we all will start using cryptography.  Or an aviation enthusiast who thinks flying cars are the way of the future.
> 
> People who write futurist articles tend to see themselves as a key part of the future.  It’s just they way we think.  Maybe I should write an article  about how kids in the future will all study really hard in their STEM classes.


...or maybe just provide one long term Covid vax study.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> So, one opinion piece in the Atlantic now implies a complete change to government policy and social norms on two continents?
> 
> Dang.  That is one powerful magazine.


Delta is Dying

An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

*Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
> 
> 
> When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.muhealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
> 
> 
> To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hopkinsmedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
> 
> 
> Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchicagomedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
> 
> 
> Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
> 
> 
> Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnatichildrens.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wistv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
> 
> 
> Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
> 
> 
> A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktla.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/


Delta is Dying

An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

*Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> So?  An epidemiologist predicts we all are going to start paying more attention to viruses.  Should I be surprised?
> 
> Next you’ll tell me that there is a famous computer geek who thinks we all will start using cryptography.  Or an aviation enthusiast who thinks flying cars are the way of the future.
> 
> People who write futurist articles tend to see themselves as a key part of the future.  It’s just they way we think.  Maybe I should write an article  about how kids in the future will all study really hard in their STEM classes.


PFYT


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> ...or maybe just provide one long term Covid vax study.


They don't want to discuss MERS and SARS-1 because they know it squashes their respiratory narrative.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
> 
> 
> When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.muhealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
> 
> 
> To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hopkinsmedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
> 
> 
> Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchicagomedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
> 
> 
> Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
> 
> 
> Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnatichildrens.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wistv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
> 
> 
> Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
> 
> 
> A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktla.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/





GoldenGate said:


> Actually, there are very many outlets reporting the truth.  In fact, the "they" you claim have no clue what they're talking about include the CDC, Yale, the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, University of Michigan, University of Colorado Health, Penn State, and well, pretty much everyone.  They know this based on the extensive studies of similar vaccines that do not contain live virus, but also from the numerous studies that have been conducted on this very issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Fertility? Here’s What the Experts Say
> 
> 
> When the first COVID-19 vaccine crossed the finish line and was approved for use in the U.S., the first piece of misinformation about the vaccine wasn’t far behind. A social media myth claimed the vaccine could cause infertility in women. MU Health Care family medicine doctor Laura Morris, MD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.muhealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination
> 
> 
> To address vaccine hesitancy based on concerns about fertility, this study assesses sperm parameters before and after mRNA vaccine administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 Vaccine and Pregnancy: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> The first COVID-19 vaccines are rolling out, and with that come many questions regarding the safety and efficacy of the various COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant and lactating women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hopkinsmedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy: What to know if you're pregnant, trying to conceive, or breastfeeding
> 
> 
> Experts in maternal-fetal medicine, reproductive endocrinology and fertility, and general obstetrics answer common questions about the COVID-19 vaccines and pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchicagomedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy?
> 
> 
> Do the COVID-19 vaccines affect my chances of pregnancy? No, there’s no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, influence your chances of getting pregnant despite a myth  suggesting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infertility and COVID-19 vaccines: Get the facts
> 
> 
> Misinformation about infertility and COVID-19 vaccines has prevented young women from getting vaccines. Dr. Missy Hoss gives the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uchealth.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the COVID-19 vaccines associated with fertility issues? | Penn State University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fertility Unaffected by COVID Vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccines
> 
> 
> Cincinnati Children's experts want you to know: There is zero scientifically based evidence that COVID vaccines affect fertility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnatichildrens.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason "few" outlets are reporting vaccines negatively affect fertility is because only crackpot websites with zero medical expertise claim that.  Maybe you should focus on the the real story that many are reporting, which is what happens when unvaccinated pregnant women get Covid. I know how you like anecdotal stories (unless they don't support you're conspiracy theory).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SC mom of 4 dies of COVID-19 complications after giving birth
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez, 31, was taken back to the hospital because she was having trouble breathing hours after bringing her newborn home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article254038638.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials plea for vaccination after 'significant' number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women
> 
> 
> Mississippi health officials are urging expectant mothers to get vaccinated after a "significant" number of COVID-19 fatalities in pregnant women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253847333.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘My baby loved her babies’: Elgin mother of four dies of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Sara Caitlin Vilchez’s family is shocked by her sudden decline and is urging expectant mothers to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wistv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated pregnant nurse, unborn baby die after she contracts Covid
> 
> 
> Haley Richardson's husband said she did not get the vaccination because she was concerned about how it could affect her pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant Boulder City woman dies of COVID-19, baby born at 30 weeks
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- A 35-year-old mother to be died two weeks after being put on a ventilator at a Las Vegas hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SoCal nurse dies of COVID-19 after giving birth to 5th child, never met newborn daughter: Family
> 
> 
> A 37-year-old San Bernardino County nurse who recently gave birth to her fifth child died of COVID-19, and her husband remains hospitalized with the virus, according to family members. Davy Macias,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktla.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/13/florida-mother-covid/


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So?  An epidemiologist predicts we all are going to start paying more attention to viruses.  Should I be surprised?
> 
> Next you’ll tell me that there is a famous computer geek who thinks we all will start using cryptography.  Or an aviation enthusiast who thinks flying cars are the way of the future.
> 
> People who write futurist articles tend to see themselves as a key part of the future.  It’s just they way we think.  Maybe I should write an article  about how kids in the future will all study really hard in their STEM classes.


I would love to read that article.

The reason the Gottlieb article is interesting is because he at least somewhat has the ear of Fauci and the health expert establishment.  Some of us, you'll recall said some portion of the population would not want to return to normal and would want masks everytime a bad flu season came around.  He is as influential as they come outside the government.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I would love to read that article.
> 
> The reason the Gottlieb article is interesting is because he at least somewhat has the ear of Fauci and the health expert establishment.  Some of us, you'll recall said some portion of the population would not want to return to normal and would want masks everytime a bad flu season came around.  He is as influential as they come outside the government.


Masks during flu season are pretty common in east Asia, and have been for a while now.  They seem to get along ok over there.

I think we get back to “normal” if and when covid vax rates get up to where measles vax rates are.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...or maybe just provide one long term Covid vax study.


Wouldn’t matter.  We have great long term vax studies on all sorts of vaccines.  It doesn’t stop the anti-vax folks from convincing each other that they need to spread measles around Disneyland.

The anti-vax loons have been around for decades.  They just finally found people gullible enough to believe them this time.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Masks during flu season are pretty common in east Asia, and have been for a while now.  They seem to get along ok over there.
> 
> I think we get back to “normal” if and when covid vax rates get up to where measles vax rates are.


What counts as a vaxx to you: first shot (doesn't natural immunity count), first shot + the Biden booster, or repeated yearly vaxx like a flu shot (in which case that's a pipe dream).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> What counts as a vaxx to you: first shot (doesn't natural immunity count), first shot + the Biden booster, or repeated yearly vaxx like a flu shot (in which case that's a pipe dream).


It will count when the covid vax is treated like any other vaccine. I can’t say for sure when I am due for my tetanus booster.  I just get the shots when the doc tells me.

Now, will covid end up being annual, biannual, decennial, or just a childhood innocuoation?  I don’t know, and I don’t need to know.  That’s the point.  We will have normal when we stop second guessing everything.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Wouldn’t matter.  We have great long term vax studies on all sorts of vaccines.  It doesn’t stop the anti-vax folks from convincing each other that they need to spread measles around Disneyland.
> 
> The anti-vax loons have been around for decades.  They just finally found people gullible enough to believe them this time.


You're correct that the anti-vax loons will always be anti-vax regardless of the studies, but they're a very small percentage.  If you look at the vaccination rate for other vaccines like polio and measles the rate is very high.  I believe two reasons for that 1) the vaccines are highly effective and 2) have been proven safe over a period of years.  The Covid vaccine is more like a flu vaccine in that it doesn't have near the efficacy of well established vaccines.  In a good year, only about 50% of the population get a flu vaccine.  50% of the population is not anti-vax.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It will count when the covid vax is treated like any other vaccine. I can’t say for sure when I am due for my tetanus booster.  I just get the shots when the doc tells me.
> 
> Now, will covid end up being annual, biannual, decennial, or just a childhood innocuoation?  I don’t know, and I don’t need to know.  That’s the point.  We will have normal when we stop second guessing everything.


Well...there's a huge difference.  If it's 1 vaxx (and natural immunity counts too from a robust infection) well then we're almost as high as measles.  If it's the Biden booster, you are saying we won't get back to normal for a very long time....if it's the one booster and done (like chicken pox) I think you blew that when Biden came out with the mandate....it's going to make a lot of people dig in their heels including those that went along and got the first...they traded some people who might go along to get a long and were reluctant (maybe because they've had COVID) for a bunch of people that are digging in their heels now on principle.   If it's like tetanus, even harder...how many adults aren't current on their tetanus vaccines....children have a captured pediatrics schedule they need to maintain for school....some adults don't even go to the dentist....now you are in having to go and drag people to their shot or ostracize them from society territory. If it's like flu, you are saying we are never getting to normal.


----------



## Grace T.

Up to 1/2 of hospitalizations might be mild cases.








						Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning
					

A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




p.s. this number may rise because of the antibody treatment since it usually requires (temporary admittance).


----------



## Grace T.

Hmmm....even nature is on the cloth masks don't reduce transmission bandwagon.









						Face masks for COVID pass their largest test yet
					

A rigorous study finds that surgical masks are highly protective, but cloth masks fall short.




					www.nature.com


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Wouldn’t matter.  We have great long term vax studies on all sorts of vaccines.  It doesn’t stop the anti-vax folks from convincing each other that they need to spread measles around Disneyland.
> 
> The anti-vax loons have been around for decades.  They just finally found people gullible enough to believe them this time.


...so trust us. Right?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hmmm....even nature is on the cloth masks don't reduce transmission bandwagon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Face masks for COVID pass their largest test yet
> 
> 
> A rigorous study finds that surgical masks are highly protective, but cloth masks fall short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


Same study.   And same failure to understand confidence intervals.

Let me know if you see a take from someone who can distinguish between “not proven” and “proven false.”


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Same study.   And same failure to understand confidence intervals.
> 
> Let me know if you see a take from someone who can distinguish between “not proven” and “proven false.”


It's not like Nature, though, is some right wing or fringe rag.  Of  course it doesn't go to the merits of the study (As I noted, there's a lot of problems with the study that cuts both ways).  But it's interesting it's taking hold of the narrative, including nature of all places.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Up to 1/2 of hospitalizations might be mild cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning
> 
> 
> A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. this number may rise because of the antibody treatment since it usually requires (temporary admittance).


Happened pre-delta as well AND has always happened.  The hopitalization designation is largely an administration function, a simple checking of a box.  I'm sure most were admitted for due cause but enough are admitted every year that should not have been admitted.  Just the way it goes.  

Now what's happening is that being admitted to the hospitcal is being weaponized, just like everything esle.  Too funny.  It's a process implemented by humans, humans who are often operating in a high stress environment.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It's not like Nature, though, is some right wing or fringe rag.  Of  course it doesn't go to the merits of the study (As I noted, there's a lot of problems with the study that cuts both ways).  But it's interesting it's taking hold of the narrative, including nature of all places.


Plenty of peer reviewed papers make that mistake:  “I didn’t get my 95%, therefore I have just proven the is no correlation.”

No surprise, even for Nature.  It’s the most common error in stats.  

Provong a lack of correlation is hard.  You don’t get it for free every time your study comes up short.


----------



## crush

Let's play "Keeping The Score."

If you’re keeping score, the virus is so deadly, so dangerous, and the vaccine so “safe and effective”, that:

• Obama had a birthday bash with hundreds of unmasked people, and they were directed not to post pics of the event.
• Members of congress and their staff are exempt from the current vaccine mandate.
• Immigrants coming through the southern border are exempt from the current vaccine mandate.
• Mask mandates, portrayed as dire, have gone into effect “in three days”, “next Monday”, etc.
• NSW was caught using crisis actors for their sob-fest “get the vaccine” propaganda news stories.
• Ivermectin is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines, used every day for hundreds of millions of humans for other ailments, but all news outlets have labeled it “horse dewormer” and anyone who uses it a quack.
• The hospital reported as turning away gunshot victims because they’re overrun with ivermectin overdoses had to release a statement as to the falsehood of that report.
• Anthony Fauci, expert on all things virus and vaccine related, won't answer the question if people who’ve had Covid need the vaccine.
• Boy's photo is used in multiple random stories as youngest Covid death.
• The virus is so dangerous, masks can be removed at restaurant tables, but not while walking to table.
• Despite millions of Americans being vaccinated, Covid cases are higher this year than last.

Feel free to add to the list...


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Plenty of peer reviewed papers make that mistake:  “I didn’t get my 95%, therefore I have just proven the is no correlation.”
> 
> No surprise, even for Nature.  It’s the most common error in stats.
> 
> Provong a lack of correlation is hard.  You don’t get it for free every time your study comes up short.


So we have gone from cherry picking studies to cherry picking the conclusions from the same study.  

Maybe you're right in this case, but how then do we sort through what's misinformation or not?  The misinformation is coming from all sides and directions.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> So we have gone from cherry picking studies to cherry picking the conclusions from the same study.
> 
> Maybe you're right in this case, but how then do we sort through what's misinformation or not?  The misinformation is coming from all sides and directions.


Hey bro, are you going to obey Joe and force vax?  I thought you said you had over 100+ workers at your plant?  Is that correct?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Hey bro, are you going to obey Joe and force vax?  I thought you said you had over 100+ workers at your plant?  Is that correct?


We are below 100, so no.  I don't see anyway that happens legally or logistically.  You have to be complete unmitigated idiot to even propose such a rule particularly when businesses are struggling to find employees.  It defies logic.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> So we have gone from cherry picking studies to cherry picking the conclusions from the same study.
> 
> Maybe you're right in this case, but how then do we sort through what's misinformation or not?  The misinformation is coming from all sides and directions.


Easy.  When 50 studies establish that Covid-19 vaccines do not negatively impact fertility, that is credible.  When desert hound cuts and pastes an anti-vax manifesto by an anonymous "pathologist/veteran/graduate of good undisclosed medical school who went to had a prestigious unidentified residency" form a fringe conspiracy website that even he is too embarrassed to identify, that is not credible.  When you deny 50 studies because "you never know" and "only time will tell", and "we don't have crystal balls", that is not credible.  When you are on the same side as crush on any issue, you are not credible.  If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship", you also are not credible.  And you are not credible if you are on the same side as someone who believes "strict construction" of a constitutional provision stating that a county may make and enforce "all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances ... not in conflict with general laws", should be interpreted to add "except mask mandates".


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> We are below 100, so no.  I don't see anyway that happens legally or logistically.  You have to be complete unmitigated idiot to even propose such a rule particularly when businesses are struggling to find employees.  It defies logic.


Legally, they have a twin problem:

-Does OSHA have that statutory authority to enact such a rule, and does Biden have the authority via executive order to have OSHA do so.  It's complicated (and not as easy as the R governor make it seem) but Chevron has been on its last legs for a while.
-Does this exceed the scope of the powers of the federal government under the Constitution and does that power displace that of the states (some of whom have banned such mandates).

It's this last question which is the more troubling of the two.  It sets up a state sovereignty clash which the red states are not likely to let go of.  It's the whole ball of wax when it comes to their view of limited v. unlimited government.


----------



## Grace T.

True


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1437505044795035650


----------



## crush




----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Legally, they have a twin problem:
> 
> -Does OSHA have that statutory authority to enact such a rule, and does Biden have the authority via executive order to have OSHA do so.  It's complicated (and not as easy as the R governor make it seem) but Chevron has been on its last legs for a while.
> -Does this exceed the scope of the powers of the federal government under the Constitution and does that power displace that of the states (some of whom have banned such mandates).
> 
> It's this last question which is the more troubling of the two.  It sets up a state sovereignty clash which the red states are not likely to let go of.  It's the whole ball of wax when it comes to their view of limited v. unlimited government.


The legal seagull is back at it.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> The legal seagull is back at it.


How many Avatars EOTL?  Be honest for once with us and come clean.  Weave been a family for over three years now.  You can;t always get what YOU want dude.  Learn to compromise a little and share with others.  Also, stop cheating and then lie about it.  When you get caught, come clean so you can heal.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Easy.  When 50 studies establish that Covid-19 vaccines do not negatively impact fertility, that is credible.  When desert hound cuts and pastes an anti-vax manifesto by an anonymous "pathologist/veteran/graduate of good undisclosed medical school who went to had a prestigious unidentified residency" form a fringe conspiracy website that even he is too embarrassed to identify, that is not credible.  When you deny 50 studies because "you never know" and "only time will tell", and "we don't have crystal balls", that is not credible.  When you are on the same side as crush on any issue, you are not credible.  If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship", you also are not credible.  And you are not credible if you are on the same side as someone who believes "strict construction" of a constitutional provision stating that a county may make and enforce "all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances ... not in conflict with general laws", should be interpreted to add "except mask mandates".


I realize you can't think outside of partisan lines, but I actually disagree with the Abbotts and DeSantis no mask mandates and it should be the choice of the county.  The rest of your response is just partisan drivel and an appeal authority without understanding the basis for those studies.  If it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it.  Ultimately, it may be determined that the vaccine didn't impact fertility for some people.  But to claim we know it doesn't have a long term impact is pure speculation.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Easy.  When 50 studies establish that Covid-19 vaccines do not negatively impact fertility, that is credible.  When desert hound cuts and pastes an anti-vax manifesto by an anonymous "pathologist/veteran/graduate of good undisclosed medical school who went to had a prestigious unidentified residency" form a fringe conspiracy website that even he is too embarrassed to identify, that is not credible.  When you deny 50 studies because "you never know" and "only time will tell", and "we don't have crystal balls", that is not credible.  When you are on the same side as crush on any issue, you are not credible.  If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship", you also are not credible.  And you are not credible if you are on the same side as someone who believes "strict construction" of a constitutional provision stating that a county may make and enforce "all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances ... not in conflict with general laws", should be interpreted to add "except mask mandates".


I guess the NIH is now in the misinformation business.  Makes sense I suppose.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Legally, they have a twin problem:
> 
> -Does OSHA have that statutory authority to enact such a rule, and does Biden have the authority via executive order to have OSHA do so.  It's complicated (and not as easy as the R governor make it seem) but Chevron has been on its last legs for a while.
> -Does this exceed the scope of the powers of the federal government under the Constitution and does that power displace that of the states (some of whom have banned such mandates).
> 
> It's this last question which is the more troubling of the two.  It sets up a state sovereignty clash which the red states are not likely to let go of.  It's the whole ball of wax when it comes to their view of limited v. unlimited government.


The limited/unlimited piece is disingenuous at best, imv. It depends on who is in charge as to who complains. The Red governors were fine with T issuing executive orders & actions, just as the Blue governors are fine with B doing the same - in a general sense. Neither the Ds or Rs believe in limiting government when they are in charge, but suddenly do when they are not. Basically, its only overreach if you don't agree; but apparently makes complete sense if you do.

Apparently there's people who still fall for this crap!


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So we have gone from cherry picking studies to cherry picking the conclusions from the same study.
> 
> Maybe you're right in this case, but how then do we sort through what's misinformation or not?  The misinformation is coming from all sides and directions.


In this case, the study itself is good.  Read that.  

People drawing conclusions and citing the study?  Often weak.

Be especially cautious if they claim "such and such a study proved that A is not true".   90% of the time this means that someone tried to prove A, but failed.


----------



## Dominic

My Fortune 100 company I work for just sent out an email that they are closely looking a federal employee guidelines. 

What are the benefits of  me getting the vaccine after I have had covid March 2020? 

Some are looking into religious exemptions.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Wouldn’t matter.  We have great long term vax studies on all sorts of vaccines.  It doesn’t stop the anti-vax folks from convincing each other that they need to spread measles around Disneyland.
> 
> The anti-vax loons have been around for decades.  They just finally found people gullible enough to believe them this time.


Your motivation for such drivel must be either:

You rolled the dice and vaxxed your kids and are having second thoughts, hence all the over the top everyone must vax nonsense... the old, misery loves company syndrome.

...or

You stand to profit from vaccines.


----------



## Grace T.

Dominic said:


> My Fortune 100 company I work for just sent out an email that they are closely looking a federal employee guidelines.
> 
> What are the benefits of  me getting the vaccine after I have had covid March 2020?
> 
> Some are looking into religious exemptions.


a. They don't know because they really haven't tested the issue.  It may be that all you need is natural immunity and there is no benefit (particularly if you had a bad case), it may be the vaccine acts as a booster giving you longer lasting immunity, or it may be natural immunity fades quickly and if you had it early on you need to keep up our immunity.  The experts are basically guessing.  
b. It could also have some negative effects since these scenarios have not been fully studied either.  Anecdotally, people who have had it before are having much more severe reactions to the first shot than the rest of the population (as opposed to the second shot)
c. The federal guidelines are going to be challenged in court.  Lawsuits have basically been geared up by numerous red state governors and private organizations.  The Constitutional clash we are headed for is that some states have expressly banned such mandates and the mandate bans will now clash directly with federal law.
d. There have been some lawsuits filed that argue natural immunity should be considered a medical exemption.  As far as I'm aware none have been litigated to judgment but a few have been settled with public employers.  Private employers have much more leeway.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The limited/unlimited piece is disingenuous at best, imv. It depends on who is in charge as to who complains. The Red governors were fine with T issuing executive orders & actions, just as the Blue governors are fine with B doing the same - in a general sense. Neither the Ds or Rs believe in limiting government when they are in charge, but suddenly do when they are not. Basically, its only overreach if you don't agree; but apparently makes complete sense if you do.
> 
> Apparently there's people who still fall for this crap!


Well Trump would have liked to have ordered California and NY to open up but he didn't.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I realize you can't think outside of partisan lines, but I actually disagree with the Abbotts and DeSantis no mask mandates and it should be the choice of the county.  The rest of your response is just partisan drivel and an appeal authority without understanding the basis for those studies.  If it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it.  Ultimately, it may be determined that the vaccine didn't impact fertility for some people.  But to claim we know it doesn't have a long term impact is pure speculation.


Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.

How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.
> 
> How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


I tend toward a Hemingwayan writing style, in which some points don't have to be spelled out if they are obvious to the reader after a little reflection.  In that sense, it was not necessary to use the words "moron", 'dumbfuck", and "dumbshit" there.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.
> 
> How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


How long did it take for It to come out that Talcum powder caused Ovarian Cancer?  

We only have Scientific Theories on the long term affects of this “vaccine”.  The probability is good (maybe even great) that there won’t be any serious long term affects, but to speak down at those who are have legitimate skepticism is quite self righteous.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility


And eotl still doesn't understand the difference between short term and long term.

When he uses the word moron I wonder if as he is typing that he is looking in the mirror.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> And eotl still doesn't understand the difference between short term and long term.
> 
> When he uses the word moron I wonder if as he is typing that he is looking in the mirror.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.
> 
> How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


Just one long term study, sheep.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Same study.   And same failure to understand confidence intervals.
> 
> Let me know if you see a take from someone who can distinguish between “not proven” and “proven false.”


You mean because you're comparing this current pandemic to itself?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> How long did it take for It to come out that Talcum powder caused Testicular Cancer?


As in "not yet"?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.
> 
> How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


You obviously are not a "menstruating person".  Because the menstrual cycle has nothing to do with fertility  

Soup. Samich.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> As in "not yet"?


Better to use baby powder with cornstarch instead.  You know?  Just to be overkill safe.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> As in "not yet"?


Ehh touché….corrected my statement.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Wouldn’t matter.  We have great long term vax studies on all sorts of vaccines.  It doesn’t stop the anti-vax folks from convincing each other that they need to spread measles around Disneyland.
> 
> The anti-vax loons have been around for decades.  They just finally found people gullible enough to believe them this time.


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It will count when the covid vax is treated like any other vaccine. I can’t say for sure when I am due for my tetanus booster.  I just get the shots when the doc tells me.
> 
> Now, will covid end up being annual, biannual, decennial, or just a childhood innocuoation?  I don’t know, and I don’t need to know.  That’s the point.  We will have normal when we stop second guessing everything.


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It will count when the covid vax is treated like any other vaccine. I can’t say for sure when I am due for my tetanus booster.  I just get the shots when the doc tells me.
> 
> Now, will covid end up being annual, biannual, decennial, or just a childhood innocuoation?  I don’t know, and I don’t need to know.  That’s the point.  We will have normal when we stop second guessing everything.


Even doctors get second opinions on everything.

*The Great Barrington Declaration*
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.
SIGN THE DECLARATION
*Co-signers*
*Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
*Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
*Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> You obviously are not a "menstruating person".  Because the menstrual cycle has nothing to do with fertility
> 
> Soup. Samich.


You beat me to it.  Sometimes I wonder why we even bother to point out the obvious.  Just let GoldenGate's post speak for itself.

That's why I believe so strongly in unrestricted free speech.  Why silence or cancel anyone, let their own words repeatedly remind us how stupid, racist, evil etc they are.  Why let them hide.


----------



## met61

Kicker4Life said:


> Ehh touché….corrected my statement.


Couldn't slip that one by @espola ...he's all things testicles.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> In this case, the study itself is good.  Read that.
> 
> People drawing conclusions and citing the study?  Often weak.
> 
> Be especially cautious if they claim "such and such a study proved that A is not true".   90% of the time this means that someone tried to prove A, but failed.


You're babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

> The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> Partisan? You clearly don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.  One study after the next has found no link between the vaccine and fertility. Partisan opinion, however, is you calling the foremost experts in the world "lab jockeys' and ignoring what they have already found on the basis that the NIH has funded a study that isn't even looking at the vaccine's effect on fertility. Rather, it is providing a grant to fund studies on the impact of taking the vaccine on the menstrual cycle, and which it specifically says are not looking at fertility.  So, when you claim that "if it wasn't an issue NIH wouldn't be studying it", you're absolutely right.  It is not an issue and they aren't studying it. That is probably the case because the NIH has already funded studies that did this and guess what moron?  For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33608302/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34058573/.  The NIH also funded a study that addressed the impact of dumbfuck anti-vaxxers like you promoting vaccine hesitancy on this very basis.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/.  And another about how anti-vaxxers are spreading your exact kind of bullshit on social media to scare women. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34181273/. You are such a dumbshit.
> 
> How many studies finding no link between the vaccine and fertility before you finally agree?  5? 10? 100?  Or are you like most anti-vaxxers, and the answer is one more than ever comes out because there will never be enough studies refuting your partisan, unsupported belief?


Sorry, we’re you linking guidance for long term effects on fertility for men and women?

It wasn’t a study, it was guidance.  It wasn’t for adolescents… and I’m glad that they concluded you should appropriately time your IVF treatments based on recent vaccinations as well as your ability to donate eggs and/or sperm post vaccination.

It was at about that point in the first publication that it was clear you don’t know what you are talking about.  I should have just trusted my instinct that such emotional involvement in your posting demeanor belied your lack of objectivity.

“People may start their fertility treatment immediately after being vaccinated, unless they wish to have a second dose before pregnan_ated, unless they wish to have a second dose before pregnancy_, it adds.

The guidance also states that those who are donating their eggs or sperm for the use of others can still have a covid-19 vaccine.”


----------



## watfly

Dominic said:


> My Fortune 100 company I work for just sent out an email that they are closely looking a federal employee guidelines.
> 
> What are the benefits of  me getting the vaccine after I have had covid March 2020?
> 
> Some are looking into religious exemptions.


I'd pose that question to your doctor and not us numbskulls.   I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a long time to implement if it can even be implemented at all.  I suspect you will have plenty of lead time to comply if necessary.


----------



## met61

My diet doesn't work because you're overeating.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> Couldn't slip that one by @espola ...he's all things testicles.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> You beat me to it.  Sometimes I wonder why we even bother to point out the obvious.  Just let GoldenGate's post speak for itself.
> 
> That's why I believe so strongly in unrestricted free speech.  Why silence or cancel anyone, let their own words repeatedly remind us how stupid, racist, evil etc they are.  Why let them hide.


You also have the right to be entertained!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> How long did it take for It to come out that Talcum powder caused Ovarian Cancer?
> 
> We only have Scientific Theories on the long term affects of this “vaccine”.  The probability is good (maybe even great) that there won’t be any serious long term affects, but to speak down at those who are have legitimate skepticism is quite self righteous.


Is it weird that the same people who were all for canceling college sports due to the possibility of myocarditis (incorrect, BTW) are so quick to dismiss the idea that the vaccine can have long-term effects? What happened to their "abundance of caution"? Those people are worse than self-righteous, They are simply selfish and cowardly. For several, there's a complete lack of independent thought. It's hilarious to see them slobber all over each other - or talk to themselves. Nuthugger? Same person? Funny either way.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Easy.  When 50 studies establish that Covid-19 vaccines do not negatively impact fertility, that is credible.


Why because they are all referencing each other in a circle jerk?



GoldenGate said:


> If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship", you also are not credible.


If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances drafted by unelected officials is not a "dictatorship", you also are not credible. 



GoldenGate said:


> And you are not credible if you ignore the fact that
> *Delta is Dying*


An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

*Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is it weird that the same people who were all for canceling college sports due to the possibility of myocarditis (incorrect, BTW) are so quick to dismiss the idea that the vaccine can have long-term effects? What happened to their "abundance of caution"? Those people are worse than self-righteous, They are simply selfish and cowardly. For several, there's a complete lack of independent thought. It's hilarious to see them slobber all over each other - or talk to themselves. Nuthugger? Same person? Funny either way.


Those people are worse than self-righteous, They are simply selfish and cowardly ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM religious freaks.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Easy.  When 50 studies establish that Covid-19 vaccines do not negatively impact fertility, that is credible.  When desert hound cuts and pastes an anti-vax manifesto by an anonymous "pathologist/veteran/graduate of good undisclosed medical school who went to had a prestigious unidentified residency" form a fringe conspiracy website that even he is too embarrassed to identify, that is not credible.  When you deny 50 studies because "you never know" and "only time will tell", and "we don't have crystal balls", that is not credible.  When you are on the same side as crush on any issue, you are not credible.  If you are on the same side as someone who believes that local elected officials adopting local ordinances is a "dictatorship", you also are not credible.  And you are not credible if you are on the same side as someone who believes "strict construction" of a constitutional provision stating that a county may make and enforce "all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances ... not in conflict with general laws", should be interpreted to add "except mask mandates".


If you don't agree that we should do a national random survey to estimate the prevalence of #COVID antibodies and T-cell immunity By age and state, you are not credible.

Martin Kulldorff

@MartinKulldorff

For informed public health policy, it is urgent that @CDCgov quickly do a national random survey to estimate the prevalence of #COVID antibodies and T-cell immunity. By age and state. @CDCDirector @RWalensky

4:07 AM · Sep 13, 2021·Twitter Web App


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Vinay Prasad, MD MPH 

@VPrasadMDMPH

Is there some rule in America that we have to keeping doing things that don't work?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I tend toward a Hemingwayan writing style, in which some points don't have to be spelled out if they are obvious to the reader after a little reflection.  In that sense, it was not necessary to use the words "moron", 'dumbfuck", and "dumbshit" there.


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

"I'm furious with myself" says the unvaccinated and exhausted Domic A.I. patient the other day.


----------



## crush




----------



## met61

Meanwhile, kids are wearing masks in school... you're being played.









						AOC and de Blasio crash the Met Gala to stick it to the rich. Joke’s on them
					

Just in case you needed a reminder that our mayor is a nitwit, Bill de Blasio showed up to the Met Gala Monday night.




					www.google.com


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> Meanwhile, kids are wearing masks in school... you're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AOC and de Blasio crash the Met Gala to stick it to the rich. Joke’s on them
> 
> 
> Just in case you needed a reminder that our mayor is a nitwit, Bill de Blasio showed up to the Met Gala Monday night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Yes and being laughed at the same time.  It was planned.  We have too many Robert DA Bruces right now met.  These so called men play both sides of the coin.  That game is over.  Now it's time to pick a side.

*Did Robert the Bruce betray Wallace?*


Yet there's no historical evidence Bruce was at Falkirk, nor that he directly betrayed Wallace *(although he did switch sides several times in these early years).* ... The defeat at Falkirk marked the unofficial end of Wallace's campaign—he resigned as Guardian of Scotland and went on the run


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Ehh touché….corrected my statement.


Asbestos was not considered to be a problem until the '70s.  Before then, it was everywhere - most famously in insulation and brake linings, but also in unexpected places like gypsum board.  Talc and asbestos were formed by similar orogenic processes, so minable deposits of one were often located near deposits of the other, and cross-contamination was known to geologists for decades.  Only in the '80s was research started into the possible diseases caused by asbestos-contaminated talcum powder.





__





						Talcum Powder and Cancer
					

Talcum powder is made from talc, a mineral composed mainly of the elements magnesium, silicon, and oxygen. It is widely used in cosmetic products such as baby powder and adult body and facial powders.




					www.cancer.org


----------



## crush

Karma is getting me back for bullying the nerds back in the day.  They laughed at me in class and I gave them pink belly's on the play ground.  Plus, they were always picked last in team sports.  I think some of them got some kids in soccer now and made sure their kids got picked first, no matter what.  The games rich people play to win is insane!!


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Meanwhile, kids are wearing masks in school... you're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AOC and de Blasio crash the Met Gala to stick it to the rich. Joke’s on them
> 
> 
> Just in case you needed a reminder that our mayor is a nitwit, Bill de Blasio showed up to the Met Gala Monday night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Nah….there’s a simple explanation you see. The celebs and politicians are vaccinated and sophisticated so they don’t have to wear masks

the servants are only vaccinated so they need to be masked (it’s also helpful to visually distinguish them from the sophisticated)

kids under 12 are neither.  They are germ buckets and need to be taught to treat each other as fellow germ buckets. That’s why for even recess they have to be masked, distanced and absolutely noplaying together

it’s science tm!


----------



## Grace T.

Heard an interesting survey over the radio. Over 1/3 of people reported, due to the prolonged contact of being stuck together no doubt, that they’ve reevaluated their relationships during the pandemic. Apparently as things opened up, cheating skyrocketed


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Nah….there’s a simple explanation you see. The celebs and politicians are vaccinated and sophisticated so they don’t have to wear masks
> 
> the servants are only vaccinated so they need to be masked (it’s also helpful to visually distinguish them from the sophisticated)
> 
> kids under 12 are neither.  They are germ buckets and need to be taught to treat each other as fellow germ buckets. That’s why for even recess they have to be masked, distanced and absolutely noplaying together
> 
> it’s science tm!


Can't have the same rules for the unwashed masses, Grace. That just wouldn't be paternalism.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Can't have the same rules for the unwashed masses, Grace. That just wouldn't be paternalism.


Nah....it's science TM!


----------



## dad4

So, if Grace travels 1500 miles for a family get together, that just means she is exercising her rights as a free American.

But if some politician or celebrity travels 1500 miles for a birthday party, then it’s proof that covid prevention rules are completely unsupported by science.

What kind of logic is that? 

The simpler explanation is that these rules are hard to live with, and quite a few of us fall short.  Some of those who fall short are celebrities and policians.

Obama’s party didn’t prove the science was wrong.  It caused a case spike, just as predicted.  Obama’s party proved the science was right.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, if Grace travels 1500 miles for a family get together, that just means she is exercising her rights as a free American.
> 
> But if some politician or celebrity travels 1500 miles for a birthday party, then it’s proof that covid prevention rules are completely unsupported by science.
> 
> What kind of logic is that?
> 
> The simpler explanation is that these rules are hard to live with, and quite a few of us fall short.  Some of those who fall short are celebrities and policians.
> 
> Obama’s party didn’t prove the science was wrong.  It caused a case spike, just as predicted.  Obama’s party proved the science was right.


I don't recall traveling 1500 miles for a family gathering.  My family leans old and are heavily into the medical profession, so I doubt they'd ever contemplate something like this.

Technically, the met gala was within the law.  Celebs who are "performing" which includes red carpet and awards have an exemption to the mask mandate.  What this challenges is the hypocrisy of allowing that (because apparently being photographed seeing your smile is an important marker for celebs), while the servants at the same event have to be masked, as do children in NYC schools.

With the Obama thing that came under criticism is that sturgis was bad because it was a largely pro republican biker crowd (I can personally attest I did see some bad seeds with confederate flags and stuff but for the most part they were lovely people and one group even offered us their seats on a crowded patio as we were coming in), but the left leaning media spared Obama from criticism (and then he "cancelled" his party only to bring it back in a slightly reduced more under the radar form and made everyone sign a confidentiality agreement not to leak pictures).


----------



## Grace T.

My brother is on the board of directors of an inn at the bar organization.  It's like a socializing/mixer thing for lawyers...social, networking and continuing education type thing with some fun events.  They were hit hard in membership by COVID because firms were cutting back on expenses and solo practitioners/judges/inhouse types didn't want to spend the money if they weren't getting any benefit.  They did a survey for what the membership wanted to do going forward.  50% were zoomed out...they didn't want to do anything more with zoom.


But another 40% also weren't up for in person meetings.  Some reported because they were pregnant, some because they are old and concerned about the delta (and these tended to be the heavy hitters like judges and partners at firms), some because they felt in person gatherings would be irresponsible and some because they have too much on their plates (with remote work and kids with erratic school and activities schedules)

So with 50% of the membership opposed to zoom gatherings, and 40% opposed to in person gatherings, they are pretty much going to hang it up for the season.  Maybe do some low key, small gatherings but pretty much that's it.  Org may even fold.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I don't recall traveling 1500 miles for a family gathering.  My family leans old and are heavily into the medical profession, so I doubt they'd ever contemplate something like this.
> 
> Technically, the met gala was within the law.  Celebs who are "performing" which includes red carpet and awards have an exemption to the mask mandate.  What this challenges is the hypocrisy of allowing that (because apparently being photographed seeing your smile is an important marker for celebs), while the servants at the same event have to be masked, as do children in NYC schools.
> 
> With the Obama thing that came under criticism is that sturgis was bad because it was a largely pro republican biker crowd (I can personally attest I did see some bad seeds with confederate flags and stuff but for the most part they were lovely people and one group even offered us their seats on a crowded patio as we were coming in), but the left leaning media spared Obama from criticism (and then he "cancelled" his party only to bring it back in a slightly reduced more under the radar form and made everyone sign a confidentiality agreement not to leak pictures).


I have to agree with @Grace T. here.  The optics are just so out of whack.  It just emphasizes, yet again, how out of touch politicians and other well-to-doers are with the general population.  It's actually mind boggling.  At some point we will all realize that the well-to-doers (regardless of party affiliation) really don't give a shit and actually probably thrive over the division we're seeing.  I also think, at the end of the day all of us peons really want the same things and the division is what's preventing us from getting there.  The grifters are guilty too (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Kieth Olberman, etc).


----------



## Kicker4Life

NorCalDad said:


> I have to agree with @Grace T. here.  The optics are just so out of whack.  It just emphasizes, yet again, how out of touch politicians and other well-to-doers are with the general population.  It's actually mind boggling.  At some point we will all realize that the well-to-doers (regardless of party affiliation) really don't give a shit and actually probably thrive over the division we're seeing.  I also think, at the end of the day all of us peons really want the same things and the division is what's preventing us from getting there.  The grifters are guilty too (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Kieth Olberman, etc).


Amen!


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> I don't recall traveling 1500 miles for a family gathering.  My family leans old and are heavily into the medical profession, so I doubt they'd ever contemplate something like this.
> 
> Technically, the met gala was within the law.  Celebs who are "performing" which includes red carpet and awards have an exemption to the mask mandate.  What this challenges is the hypocrisy of allowing that (because apparently being photographed seeing your smile is an important marker for celebs), while the servants at the same event have to be masked, as do children in NYC schools.
> 
> With the Obama thing that came under criticism is that sturgis was bad because it was a largely pro republican biker crowd (I can personally attest I did see some bad seeds with confederate flags and stuff but for the most part they were lovely people and one group even offered us their seats on a crowded patio as we were coming in), but the left leaning media spared Obama from criticism (and then he "cancelled" his party only to bring it back in a slightly reduced more under the radar form and made everyone sign a confidentiality agreement not to leak pictures).


The strict constructionist is lying about the law again.  NYC requires only that anti-vaxxers must wear masks, except when riding public transportation, in a school or healthcare setting, in group residential facilities, when in a store, restaurant or other public space when the owner requires it, or at work also if required by the employer. Here, all attendees at the Gala were required to be vaccinated and therefore not required to wear masks.  In fact, even vaccinated employees were not required by any ordinance to wear a mask, and to the extent they were required to wear one, it was because it was required by their employer.  Accordingly, there is no hypocrisy. To the extent the strict constructionist insinuates that the government is responsible for "hypocrisy" because it required employees to wear masks, she is lying again. One would think Grace T. would support an employer's ability to decide how to operate its business, which was exactly what was happening here. But the truth is, she is opposed to anyone who supports vaccines or masks, whether it's the federal government, a state government, a local jurisdiction, and now apparently private employers. Also, when Grace T. claims that guests at the Gala fundraiser were "performing", is that consistent with a "strict constructionist" theory? Do local ordinances that apply to employees now include guests at fundraisers because, you know, employee = guest in the dictionary?  

Probably the most annoying thing about Grace T.'s opinions are that she apparently has not been employed during her adult life and therefore has no idea how anything actually works in business. While Grace T. prances around her keyboard making up nonsense about constitutional law showdowns and encouraging people to engage in behavior that jacks up everyone's healthcare costs, the truth is employers are requiring that employees wear masks because they don't want them getting sick and dying, because it's expensive. Schools and businesses are requiring masks for employees in large part due to the exorbitant increased healthcare and workers' comp. costs associated with the pandemic, which have increased in double digits for many employers and employees.  While Grace T. claims it is all "hypocrisy" and falsely asserts that the city had something to do with why employees were wearing masks, that was just a lie. The truth is that businesses - including the city as it pertains to schools - are requiring masks because they are trying to keep healthcare costs down and can't do that if/when their anti-vaxxer employees or their dependents spend weeks in the ICU, so they make their employees wear masks and, in many cases now, get vaccinated. Or like at Delta Airlines, the anti-vaxxers get to pay more for their stupidity.  

As for Grace T.'s attempt to equate Obama's birthday to Sturgis, that is more misleading b.s.  Obama's party followed all CDC protocols, guests were instructed to be vaccinated and required presentation of a negative test prior to entry.  Did Sturgis follow any protocols?  Was a negative test required for entry? Were participants asked to be vaccinated? Essentially what Grace T. is claiming is that no liberals should be able to do anything regardless of how careful they are unless and until the confederate flag waving anti-vaxxer crowd gets to do whatever they want, regardless of how stupid they are.  And even when they are allowed to do whatever they want, such as at Sturgis, liberals still shouldn't be allowed to do anything regardless of the precautions they take because it just isn't fair that anyone criticize them for being stupid.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> So, if Grace travels 1500 miles for a family get together, that just means she is exercising her rights as a free American.
> 
> But if some politician or celebrity travels 1500 miles for a birthday party, then it’s proof that covid prevention rules are completely unsupported by science.
> 
> What kind of logic is that?
> 
> The simpler explanation is that these rules are hard to live with, and quite a few of us fall short.  Some of those who fall short are celebrities and policians.
> 
> Obama’s party didn’t prove the science was wrong.  It caused a case spike, just as predicted.  Obama’s party proved the science was right.


Simply put... you're being played.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The strict constructionist is lying about the law again.  NYC requires only that anti-vaxxers must wear masks, except when riding public transportation, in a school or healthcare setting, in group residential facilities, when in a store, restaurant or other public space when the owner requires it, or at work also if required by the employer. Here, all attendees at the Gala were required to be vaccinated and therefore not required to wear masks.  In fact, even vaccinated employees were not required by any ordinance to wear a mask, and to the extent they were required to wear one, it was because it was required by their employer.  Accordingly, there is no hypocrisy. To the extent the strict constructionist insinuates that the government is responsible for "hypocrisy" because it required employees to wear masks, she is lying again. One would think Grace T. would support an employer's ability to decide how to operate its business, which was exactly what was happening here. But the truth is, she is opposed to anyone who supports vaccines or masks, whether it's the federal government, a state government, a local jurisdiction, and now apparently private employers. Also, when Grace T. claims that guests at the Gala fundraiser were "performing", is that consistent with a "strict constructionist" theory? Do local ordinances that apply to employees now include guests at fundraisers because, you know, employee = guest in the dictionary?
> 
> Probably the most annoying thing about Grace T.'s opinions are that she apparently has not been employed during her adult life and therefore has no idea how anything actually works in business. While Grace T. prances around her keyboard making up nonsense about constitutional law showdowns and encouraging people to engage in behavior that jacks up everyone's healthcare costs, the truth is employers are requiring that employees wear masks because they don't want them getting sick and dying, because it's expensive. Schools and businesses are requiring masks for employees in large part due to the exorbitant increased healthcare and workers' comp. costs associated with the pandemic, which have increased in double digits for many employers and employees.  While Grace T. claims it is all "hypocrisy" and falsely asserts that the city had something to do with why employees were wearing masks, that was just a lie. The truth is that businesses - including the city as it pertains to schools - are requiring masks because they are trying to keep healthcare costs down and can't do that if/when their anti-vaxxer employees or their dependents spend weeks in the ICU, so they make their employees wear masks and, in many cases now, get vaccinated. Or like at Delta Airlines, the anti-vaxxers get to pay more for their stupidity.
> 
> As for Grace T.'s attempt to equate Obama's birthday to Sturgis, that is more misleading b.s.  Obama's party followed all CDC protocols, guests were instructed to be vaccinated and required presentation of a negative test prior to entry.  Did Sturgis follow any protocols?  Was a negative test required for entry? Were participants asked to be vaccinated? Essentially what Grace T. is claiming is that no liberals should be able to do anything regardless of how careful they are unless and until the confederate flag waving anti-vaxxer crowd gets to do whatever they want, regardless of how stupid they are.  And even when they are allowed to do whatever they want, such as at Sturgis, liberals still shouldn't be allowed to do anything regardless of the precautions they take because it just isn't fair that anyone criticize them for being stupid.


Simply put...the long-term effects of the vax are unknown, and at this point, unknowable.


----------



## GoldenGate

NorCalDad said:


> I have to agree with @Grace T. here.  The optics are just so out of whack.  It just emphasizes, yet again, how out of touch politicians and other well-to-doers are with the general population.  It's actually mind boggling.  At some point we will all realize that the well-to-doers (regardless of party affiliation) really don't give a shit and actually probably thrive over the division we're seeing.  I also think, at the end of the day all of us peons really want the same things and the division is what's preventing us from getting there.  The grifters are guilty too (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Kieth Olberman, etc).


The only division is the division that people like you and Grace T. are creating over fake issues. Presumably, you have no problem with someone attending a private party, right?  Presumably, you have no problem with a private entity requiring guests at its private party be vaccinated, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a private company requiring that its employees wear masks so that it can keep healthcare costs down for its employees, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a city deciding that vaccinated individuals need not wear masks at a private party unless the entity holding the party requires it, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a city (as opposed to a state or the feds) deciding when a mask should and should not be required, right?

As best I can tell, you are just upset that a city requires everyone in school or healthcare settings wear a mask, so you believe celebrities should be barred from doing anything or going anywhere until you get your way.  Which is apparently that everyone, including private employers, should be forced to let anti-vaxxers parade into their buildings with no masks, no negative covid tests, no precautions at all? Until school and hospital employee healthcare costs skyrocket even more than they have?  Until healthcare entities stop making people wear masks at hospitals because you know more than them?


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> I have to agree with @Grace T. here.  The optics are just so out of whack.  It just emphasizes, yet again, how out of touch politicians and other well-to-doers are with the general population.  It's actually mind boggling.  At some point we will all realize that the well-to-doers (regardless of party affiliation) really don't give a shit and actually probably thrive over the division we're seeing.  I also think, at the end of the day all of us peons really want the same things and the division is what's preventing us from getting there.  The grifters are guilty too (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Kieth Olberman, etc).


On board with this... although, would appreciate your definition of well-to-doers in this context.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Looks like we have another vacancy under the bridge….


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> On board with this... although, would appreciate your definition of well-to-doers in this context.


Noah Carl – with help from my favorite t.v. program of all time – describes the political ‘(il)logic’ of Covid lockdowns. A slice:

*When I asked Philippe Lemoine why lockdowns were implemented with so little regard for costs, he suggested that politicians didn’t want to “leave themselves open to the accusation of not having done anything to curb the epidemic”.* They had to do _something_, even if that something ended up causing more harm than good.

*This fallacy was popularised by the much-loved British sitcom Yes, Prime Minister. In the episode‘Power to the People’, Sir Humphrey Appleby is talking to his predecessor Sir Arnold Robinson about the Prime Minister’s plans to reform local government.*

Sir Arnold says, “He’s suffering from politician’s logic,” to which Sir Humphrey replies, “Something must be done; this is something; therefore we must do it.” In other words: ‘Something must be done; lockdown is something; therefore we must do it.

*The incentives that gave rise to ‘politician’s logic’ in this case are obvious. While the ‘benefits’ of lockdown are immediate and visible, the costs may take months or even years to materialise. (By ‘benefits’, I mean the reduction in social and economic activity that is believed to reduce viral transmission.)

Furthermore, even if lockdown’s impact on mortality turns out to be marginal, politicians can claim that things would have been far worse if not for their tough and far-sighted decisions.*


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Simply put... you're being played.


Yes, clearly none of the thousands of epidemiologists in the country is telling the truth. 

 There isn't even a virus at all.  It's all one big scam to trick you into wearing a mask, so we can laugh at you on social media.

*Eye roll*


----------



## Grace T.

Religious exemption lawsuit.









						Judge blocks medical worker vaccine mandate in NY state
					

A federal judge has temporarily blocked New York state from forcing medical workers to be vaccinated after a group of health care workers sued, saying their Constitutional rights were violated




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## NorCalDad

GoldenGate said:


> The only division is the division that people like you and Grace T. are creating over fake issues. Presumably, you have no problem with someone attending a private party, right?  Presumably, you have no problem with a private entity requiring guests at its private party be vaccinated, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a private company requiring that its employees wear masks so that it can keep healthcare costs down for its employees, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a city deciding that vaccinated individuals need not wear masks at a private party unless the entity holding the party requires it, right? Presumably, you have no problem with a city (as opposed to a state or the feds) deciding when a mask should and should not be required, right?
> 
> As best I can tell, you are just upset that a city requires everyone in school or healthcare settings wear a mask, so you believe celebrities should be barred from doing anything or going anywhere until you get your way.  Which is apparently that everyone, including private employers, should be forced to let anti-vaxxers parade into their buildings with no masks, no negative covid tests, no precautions at all? Until school and hospital employee healthcare costs skyrocket even more than they have?  Until healthcare entities stop making people wear masks at hospitals because you know more than them?


Are you having birthday parties with 200 people? Are you going to the Met Gala party? I doubt it.

I don't know about you, but my life has changed at its core since the pandemic started. We no longer go to large gatherings, we only let our kids hang out with other kids (mask free) outdoors. In fact we avoid them hanging out indoors with other kids altogether. We had to manage remote learning during lockdown. We didn't have "assistants" or private tutors. We haven't been on a plane in over 2 years now. Some of this is habitual as we've become accustomed to it. But make no mistake, a large swath of the US population is living with heightened levels of anxiety and stress. I don't think we can even fathom the mental health impact this is having. I can handle that, if I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. 

I am pro-vax and wear a mask when I go somewhere indoors. I'm baffled by the anti-vaxer mindset. My reaction here is the same as when I'd see Trump golfing 200 days a year while the country suffered. These elected officials, republican or democrat, left or right, aren't leaders. All at the same time, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk, etc are raking it in. The grifters and MSM are raking it in as well. The division is a cash crop for them. There's nothing trying to unite people. 

So, when I see the wealthy and politicians living their lives as if the pandemic isn't a thing, I can't help but think of the proverb, "Do as I say, not as I do".


----------



## Desert Hound

Now a few weeks ago dad predicted we would peak mid Oct. 

That always struck me funny due to the fact that most of the other western countries had a rise of 4-6 weeks then things dropped off. 

I always assumed we would follow a similar pattern. 

Low and behold it appears that is exactly what we are doing. 

We have examples of other countries around the world who got delta before us. Why our chattering class and politicians don't look at that data and assume we likely see a similar pattern is beyond me.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, clearly none of the thousands of epidemiologists in the country is telling the truth.
> 
> There isn't even a virus at all.  It's all one big scam to trick you into wearing a mask, so we can laugh at you on social media.
> 
> *Eye roll*


I think Bruddah touched on it with his "yes, minister" joke.  The politicians feel pressured to "do something".  So they pressure the health experts to "do something" (you see this in play with the politico story on the FDA and boosters).  The experts aren't rewarded for being overly risky...people die and they are blamed....so they'll take the most conservative policy and they'll make the most aggressive model.  They don't take into concern the other costs because that isn't in their portfolio.  The politician, having heard the advice to "do something", isn't going to challenge the expert or take into consideration other experts not in the field, because if it goes south (like Cuomo and the nursing homes) they'll bear the brunt of it.  But the politicians don't necessarily REALLY believe the advice being given (or they'd follow it meticulously themselves).  Since they are powerful, they can afford to get exemptions from the rules or cheat (like Newsom and the French laundry).  Constituencies like children who have no power get thrown under the bus.

There's also another school of thought out there that says this is a conspiracy to promulgate the Great Reset.  I don't buy into that theory.  Life is too messy for neat explanations like that.  But I do think things like the federal vaxx mandate (if they survive court review) would serve to increase government power via executive order in other areas of life (such as climate change)....if the federal government can do that, what can't it do?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> I think Bruddah touched on it with his "yes, minister" joke.  The politicians feel pressured to "do something".  So they pressure the health experts to "do something" (you see this in play with the politico story on the FDA and boosters).  The experts aren't rewarded for being overly risky...people die and they are blamed....so they'll take the most conservative policy and they'll make the most aggressive model.  They don't take into concern the other costs because that isn't in their portfolio.  The politician, having heard the advice to "do something", isn't going to challenge the expert or take into consideration other experts not in the field, because if it goes south (like Cuomo and the nursing homes) they'll bear the brunt of it.  But the politicians don't necessarily REALLY believe the advice being given (or they'd follow it meticulously themselves).  Since they are powerful, they can afford to get exemptions from the rules or cheat (like Newsom and the French laundry).  Constituencies like children who have no power get thrown under the bus.
> 
> There's also another school of thought out there that says this is a conspiracy to promulgate the Great Reset.  I don't buy into that theory.  Life is too messy for neat explanations like that.  But I do think things like the federal vaxx mandate (if they survive court review) would serve to increase government power via executive order in other areas of life (such as climate change)....if the federal government can do that, what can't it do?


Per Grace T., the government and health experts conspired to lie about the pandemic and overstate how dangerous it is so they could make children wear masks unnecessarily at school.  We know this because children do not transmit Covid.  Teachers and staff also do not transmit Covid. Healthcare costs do not rise for employers, including school districts, because no one is actually dying of Covid (except when we can blame democrats). We know it is all a conspiracy (although not THE conspiracy to overthrow capitalism) because Gavin Newsom once had dinner at the French Laundry.  You must ignore what every medical expert in the world is saying.  Everything they say is a lie.  Believe Grace T. instead.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Yes, clearly none of the thousands of epidemiologists in the country is telling the truth.
> 
> There isn't even a virus at all.  It's all one big scam to trick you into wearing a mask, so we can laugh at you on social media.
> 
> *Eye roll*


You must get a vaccine and wear a mask to protect those who got a vaccine and are wearing a mask.

...hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## N00B

@GoldenGate 

You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> @GoldenGate
> 
> You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


Don't discourage him, I still have a lot of popcorn left.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> @GoldenGate
> 
> You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


Time is all he has. Who else would want his time?


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> @GoldenGate
> 
> You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


Is EOTL still on about me?  He's just po'd I bested him again by figuring out who he is.  I'm not reading his posts but $10 says he's dropped all pretenses and is going off calling people names again, just to make it obvious.


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> @GoldenGate
> 
> You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


shhhhh


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> You must get a vaccine and wear a mask to protect those who got a vaccine and are wearing a mask.
> 
> ...hook, line, and sinker.


No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.   

No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.

Thanks to you for setting me straight.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.
> 
> No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.
> 
> Thanks to you for setting me straight.


Just out of curiosity, which epidemiologist are you going to believe in regards to the booster?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.
> 
> No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.
> 
> Thanks to you for setting me straight.


You still have not explained why you wear n95 masks. Why not just use the surgical masks you so highly tout?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Just out of curiosity, which epidemiologist are you going to believe in regards to the booster?


Grace T. says we should not listen to any medical experts because they have all been pressured to lie by politicians.  Other than desert hound's anonymous pathologist/war veteran/Big 10 med school grad/former resident at a secret reputable place, who posts things at websites that even desert hound is too embarrassed to admit.

We should only listen to Grace T. despite apparently never having a paying job in her adult life, because that's how conspiracy theories work best.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Just out of curiosity, which epidemiologist are you going to believe in regards to the booster?


I have not heard anyone with a solid rebuttal to Gruber and Krause’s argument.  Third shots save fewer lives than first shots.

If I were particularly vulnerable, I’d probably get in line for shot #3.  But I am not.  That shot does more good in someone else’s arm.

If, a year or two from now, the world is mostly vaccinated and they recommend a Delta/Mu/Omega booster, I’ll get it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I have not heard anyone with a solid rebuttal to Gruber and Krause’s argument.  Third shots save fewer lives than first shots.
> 
> If I were particularly vulnerable, I’d probably get in line for shot #3.  But I am not.  That shot does more good in someone else’s arm.
> 
> If, a year or two from now, the world is mostly vaccinated and they recommend a Delta/Mu/Omega booster, I’ll get it.


Wow...shocking...something you and I actually agree on....every single word.

Where I think we disagree is where this leaves us.  Effectively, it means you are conceding there is nothing on the horizon and no soft off ramp (which is unacceptable to the Biden admin).  That leaves us with 3 possibilities: a. the Delta burns itself out relatively quickly and miraculously things turn back to normal and no further variants take hold, b. the English/north European approach....remove most restrictions and masks and testing of asymptomatics (particularly in schools) and trust natural immunity to act as a booster and get us there, or c. we continue with soft restrictions in perpetuity.  It's a reasonable position to say we can't do b. until we get greater first shot compliance, but I note the CDC estimates 83% seroprevalence already among blood donors and the remaining 17% do have an autonomy to make bad decisions.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.
> 
> No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.
> 
> Thanks to you for setting me straight.


You jabbed your kids with a big unknown, that can't be fully knowable for several years. (FYI, smallpox vax prevents contracting and spreading).

You blindly followed and bowed too your betters, masking your kids all day in school while your betters are laughing, socializing, and partying maskless without a worry in the world.

Actually, you might be intelligent, but wise you are not.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Grace T. says we should not listen to any medical experts because they have all been pressured to lie by politicians.  Other than desert hound's anonymous pathologist/war veteran/Big 10 med school grad/former resident at a secret reputable place, who posts things at websites that even desert hound is too embarrassed to admit.
> 
> We should only listen to Grace T. despite apparently never having a paying job in her adult life, because that's how conspiracy theories work best.


You should only listen to the medical experts on the Tee V.  Don't trust or listen to your friendly neighborhood, no book deal  havin medical professional.


----------



## watfly

Maybe I missed the post somewhere, but apparently PHD's are the most vaccine hesitant group out of the various education levels at 26%.  Even higher hesitancy than the those with a high school education, or less.  Not sure it means anything, but PHD's are overwhelmingly Democrats.  Pew has said PHD's that are Republican are only 4-10% depending on field of study, 6% for scientists.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> You jabbed your kids with a big unknown, that can't be fully knowable for several years. (FYI, smallpox vax prevents contracting and spreading).
> 
> You blindly followed and bowed too your betters, masking your kids all day in school while your betters are laughing, socializing, and partying maskless without a worry in the world.
> 
> Actually, you might be intelligent, but wise you are not.


I couldn't care less what Dad4 did, he did what he thought was best for his family.  That's all I want too, is the choice to do what is best for my family.  Unfortunately, there is a population of the fearful and/or arrogant that want to make that decision for my family.  That's the problem I have.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Maybe I missed the post somewhere, but apparently PHD's are the most vaccine hesitant group out of the various education levels at 26%.  Even higher hesitancy than the those with a high school education, or less.  Not sure it means anything, but PHD's are overwhelmingly Democrats.  Pew has said PHD's that are Republican are only 4-10% depending on field of study, 6% for scientists.


That was brought up before and was shown to be somewhat of a mis-statement.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Per Grace T., the government and health experts conspired to lie about the pandemic and overstate how dangerous it is so they could make children wear masks unnecessarily at school.  We know this because children do not transmit Covid.  Teachers and staff also do not transmit Covid. Healthcare costs do not rise for employers, including school districts, because no one is actually dying of Covid (except when we can blame democrats). We know it is all a conspiracy (although not THE conspiracy to overthrow capitalism) because Gavin Newsom once had dinner at the French Laundry.  You must ignore what every medical expert in the world is saying.  Everything they say is a lie.  Believe Grace T. instead.


Way to encapsulate everything that has never been said nor conclusions drawn….just take sound bytes and twist them to your narrative.   

Who is watching the bridge while you’re out “pillaging the Trumpanzee villages”?


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> I couldn't care less what Dad4 did, he did what he thought was best for his family.  That's all I want too, is the choice to do what is best for my family.  Unfortunately, there is a population of the fearful and/or arrogant that want to make that decision for my family.  That's the problem I have.


Dad4 is said "population."


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> Dad4 is said "population."


When has @dad4 said he supported the mandate?  

While I can't speak for Dad4, I suspect he's more of the "What the eff is wrong with you anti-vaxers?" ilk.   He has more polish when he says it.  Big difference.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> When has @dad4 said he supported the mandate?
> 
> While I can't speak for Dad4, I suspect he's more of the "What the eff is wrong with you anti-vaxers?" ilk.   He has more polish when he says it.  Big difference.


Let's not get carried away now.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> That was brought up before and was shown to be somewhat of a mis-statement.


Provide the somewhat of a misstatement.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> Provide the somewhat of a misstatement.


What I post below is what espola prefers based on his responses.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That was brought up before and was shown to be somewhat of a mis-statement.


Link?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> Provide the somewhat of a misstatement.


Isnt somewhat of a misstatement the same as mostly true?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I have not heard anyone with a solid rebuttal to Gruber and Krause’s argument.  Third shots save fewer lives than first shots.
> 
> If I were particularly vulnerable, I’d probably get in line for shot #3.  But I am not.  That shot does more good in someone else’s arm.
> 
> If, a year or two from now, the world is mostly vaccinated and they recommend a Delta/Mu/Omega booster, I’ll get it.


You'll take what you're told to take...anti-vaxxer!


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Link?


I didn't bring it up the last time and I have no idea where it came from.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yes, clearly none of the thousands of epidemiologists in the country is telling the truth.
> 
> There isn't even a virus at all.  It's all one big scam to trick you into wearing a mask, so we can laugh at you on social media.
> 
> *Eye roll*


Drama queen.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> You must get a vaccine and wear a mask to protect those who got a vaccine and are wearing a mask.
> 
> ...hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> @GoldenGate
> 
> You are spending a lot of energy on someone who likely no longer sees your posts.


I love his post.  Reminds me of Husker Du.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.
> 
> No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.
> 
> Thanks to you for setting me straight.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No, no.  I am wise to it now.  I was being played.
> 
> No more masks for me.  I now know that every single virologist in the country was lying to me.  Those pictures of freezer trucks outside hospitals?  Those held the crushed ice for the margaritas they’d drink while laughing at all of us plebes.
> 
> Thanks to you for setting me straight.


Setting you straight = Goal of Zero COVID.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Grace T. says we should not listen to any medical experts because they have all been pressured to lie by politicians.


Not true.  There are medical experts who are not ignoring the long history of respiratory viruses.  "You are not credible"

*The Great Barrington Declaration*
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.
SIGN THE DECLARATION
*Co-signers*
*Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
*Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
*Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> You'll take what you're told to take...anti-vaxxer!


It's a slippery slope for Dad4.  It starts innocently enough following the guidance of two rogue, former employees from the FDA over the CDC, FDA, NIH and Fauci.  The next thing he's wearing cloth masks.  Then before you know it, he's licking the spout on public water fountains.  He won't even know what's hit him.  Its scary shit.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> We should only listen to Grace T. despite apparently never having a paying job in her adult life, because that's how conspiracy theories work best.


Lol!  Get yourself some Bull Pen underwear.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> *If I were particularly vulnerable, I’d probably get in line for shot #3.  But I am not. * That shot does more good in someone else’s arm.


Are you between the age of 0-19?  If you are, you also aren't particularly vulnerable in the absence of shots 1 and 2 either.  But you're ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM so......


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> It's a slippery slope for Dad4.  It starts innocently enough following the guidance of two rogue, former employees from the FDA over the CDC, FDA, NIH and Fauci.  The next thing he's wearing cloth masks.  Then before you know it, he's licking the spout on public water fountains.  He won't even know what's hit him.  Its scary shit.


The tyranny of tiny risk is his creed.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> You jabbed your kids with a big unknown, that can't be fully knowable for several years. (FYI, smallpox vax prevents contracting and spreading).
> 
> You blindly followed and bowed too your betters, masking your kids all day in school while your betters are laughing, socializing, and partying maskless without a worry in the world.
> 
> Actually, you might be intelligent, but wise you are not.


Has there *ever* been a vaccine with long term negative side effects which were not known after the first 3-4 months?  It's been 16 months since clinical trials started.  There is not a hidden side effect.

The vaccine isn't an unknown.  It is one of the most researched substances on the planet.

It isn't so much that they are your betters.  But they are better informed than you.  

Either take the time to get informed, or stop pretending to understand things which you do not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Has there *ever* been a vaccine with long term negative side effects which were not known after the first 3-4 months?  It's been 16 months since clinical trials started.  There is not a hidden side effect.
> 
> The vaccine isn't an unknown.  It is one of the most researched substances on the planet.
> 
> It isn't so much that they are your betters.  But they are better informed than you.
> 
> Either take the time to get informed, or stop pretending to understand things which you do not.


“They” have been heavily manipulated, errr I mean convinced. Decades of conditioning coming to fruition.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Has there *ever* been a vaccine with long term negative side effects which were not known after the first 3-4 months?  It's been 16 months since clinical trials started.  There is not a hidden side effect.
> 
> The vaccine isn't an unknown.  It is one of the most researched substances on the planet.
> 
> It isn't so much that they are your betters.  But they are better informed than you.
> 
> Either take the time to get informed, or stop pretending to understand things which you do not.


Better yet take the time to acknowledge that immune systems, clean drinking water and sanitation systems are the back bone of human flourishing.  Without them vaccines are useless.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> “They” have been heavily manipulated, errr I mean convinced. Decades of conditioning coming to fruition.


Spoken like a true ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM tyrant.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> That was brought up before and was shown to be somewhat of a mis-statement.


Apparently not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Writing in the _Wall Street Journal_, Johns Hopkins medical professor Marty Makary criticizes the CDC’s continuing insistence on ignoring important data on Covid. A slice:

*Sound data from the CDC has been especially lacking on natural immunity from prior Covid infection. On Aug. 25, Israel published the most powerful and scientifically rigorous study on the subject to date. In a sample of more than 700,000 people, natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity in preventing symptomatic infections.

Despite this evidence, U.S. public health officials continue to dismiss natural immunity, insisting that those who have recovered from Covid must still get the vaccine.* Policy makers and public health leaders, and the media voices that parrot them, are inexplicably sticking to their original hypothesis that natural immunity is fleeting, even as at least 15 studies show it lasts.

*Meanwhile, employers fire workers with natural immunity who won’t get vaccinated. Schools disenroll students who won’t comply.*
The CDC did put out a study on natural immunity last month, forcefully concluding that vaccinated immunity was 2.3 times better than natural immunity. The CDC used these results to justify telling those with natural immunity to get vaccinated.

*But the rate of infection in each group was less than 0.01%, meaning infections were exceedingly rare in the short two-month time period the agency chose to study. This is odd, given there are more than a year of data available. Moreover, despite having data on all 50 states, the CDC only reported data from Kentucky. Was Kentucky the only state that produced the desired result? Why else exclude the same data from the other 49 states?

Some public health officials are afraid to acknowledge natural immunity because they fear some will choose infection over vaccination.* But leaders can encourage all Americans who aren’t immune to get vaccinated and be transparent with the data at the same time.  *The CDC shouldn’t fish for data to support outdated hypotheses. Heeding the robust Israeli data on natural immunity could help restore the agency’s credibility and even help vaccination efforts.*


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Writing in the _Wall Street Journal_, Johns Hopkins medical professor Marty Makary criticizes the CDC’s continuing insistence on ignoring important data on Covid. A slice:
> 
> *Sound data from the CDC has been especially lacking on natural immunity from prior Covid infection. On Aug. 25, Israel published the most powerful and scientifically rigorous study on the subject to date. In a sample of more than 700,000 people, natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity in preventing symptomatic infections.
> 
> Despite this evidence, U.S. public health officials continue to dismiss natural immunity, insisting that those who have recovered from Covid must still get the vaccine.* Policy makers and public health leaders, and the media voices that parrot them, are inexplicably sticking to their original hypothesis that natural immunity is fleeting, even as at least 15 studies show it lasts.
> 
> *Meanwhile, employers fire workers with natural immunity who won’t get vaccinated. Schools disenroll students who won’t comply.*
> The CDC did put out a study on natural immunity last month, forcefully concluding that vaccinated immunity was 2.3 times better than natural immunity. The CDC used these results to justify telling those with natural immunity to get vaccinated.
> 
> *But the rate of infection in each group was less than 0.01%, meaning infections were exceedingly rare in the short two-month time period the agency chose to study. This is odd, given there are more than a year of data available. Moreover, despite having data on all 50 states, the CDC only reported data from Kentucky. Was Kentucky the only state that produced the desired result? Why else exclude the same data from the other 49 states?
> 
> Some public health officials are afraid to acknowledge natural immunity because they fear some will choose infection over vaccination.* But leaders can encourage all Americans who aren’t immune to get vaccinated and be transparent with the data at the same time.  *The CDC shouldn’t fish for data to support outdated hypotheses. Heeding the robust Israeli data on natural immunity could help restore the agency’s credibility and even help vaccination efforts.*


Mr. Makary is a gastrointestinal surgeon.

He's the one to visit if you give up on the diet and decide to have the stomach stapling surgery.

Which, given your thumbnail image, you might want to consider....


----------



## Bruddah IZ

At some point those of you who deny the immune systems superior efficacy are going to have to come to terms with your CDC like denial.  A world population of nearly 8 billion SHOULD be enough to bring you to that realization.  That number of human beings wasn't the work of vaccines.  Clean drinking water, sanitation systems and a robust immune system (mandated) is what got us there in large part.  Your tyrant like advocacy of mandates that deny people their right to due process and liberty are an assault on the very system that allowed vaccines to be developed in the first place.  Strange that you should want to destroy that which you advocate for so vigorously.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Mr. Makary is a gastrointestinal surgeon.
> 
> He's the one to visit if you give up on the diet and decide to have the stomach stapling surgery.
> 
> Which, given your thumbnail image, you might want to consider....


q.e.d.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Writing in _The Atlantic_, David Zweig warns us to beware of fishy Covid-19 data. (HT Lyle Albaugh) Three slices:



> If you want to make sense of the number of COVID hospitalizations at any given time, you need to know how sick each patient actually is. Until now, that’s been almost impossible to suss out. The federal government requires hospitals to report every patient who tests positive for COVID, yet the overall tallies of COVID hospitalizations, made available on various state and federal dashboards and widely reported on by the media, do not differentiate based on severity of illness. Some patients need extensive medical intervention, such as getting intubated. Others require supplemental oxygen or administration of the steroid dexamethasone. *But there are many COVID patients in the hospital with fairly mild symptoms, too, who have been admitted for further observation on account of their comorbidities, or because they reported feeling short of breath. Another portion of the patients in this tally are in the hospital for something unrelated to COVID, and discovered that they were infected only because they were tested upon admission.*


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Has there *ever* been a vaccine with long term negative side effects which were not known after the first 3-4 months?  It's been 16 months since clinical trials started.  There is not a hidden side effect.
> 
> The vaccine isn't an unknown.  It is one of the most researched substances on the planet.
> 
> It isn't so much that they are your betters.  But they are better informed than you.
> 
> Either take the time to get informed, or stop pretending to understand things which you do not.


My bad, I assumed long term meant long term. You win!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Writing in _The Atlantic_, David Zweig warns us to beware of fishy Covid-19 data. (HT Lyle Albaugh) :

The study found that from March 2020 through early January 2021—before vaccination was widespread, and before the Delta variant had arrived—the proportion of patients with mild or asymptomatic disease was 36 percent. From mid-January through the end of June 2021, however, that number rose to 48 percent. In other words, the study suggests that roughly half of all the hospitalized patients showing up on COVID-data dashboards in 2021 may have been admitted for another reason entirely, or had only a mild presentation of disease.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Writing in _The Atlantic_, David Zweig warns us to beware of fishy Covid-19 data. (HT Lyle Albaugh) :

But the study also demonstrates that hospitalization rates for COVID, as cited by journalists and policy makers, can be misleading, if not considered carefully. Clearly many patients right now are seriously ill. We also know that overcrowding of hospitals by COVID patients with even mild illness can have negative implications for patients in need of other care. *At the same time, this study suggests that COVID hospitalization tallies can’t be taken as a simple measure of the prevalence of severe or even moderate disease, because they might inflate the true numbers by a factor of two. “As we look to shift from cases to hospitalizations as a metric to drive policy and assess level of risk to a community or state or country,” [Shira] Doron told me, referring to decisions about school closures, business restrictions, mask requirements, and so on, “we should refine the definition of hospitalization. Those patients who are there with rather than from COVID don’t belong in the metric.”*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> My bad, I assumed long term meant long term. You win!


BTW if it was the most researched substance on the planet as he alleges, then why haven't we used it to cure cancer, heart disease, the two top killers in the U.S..  Dad just spouts from his trance like whirling.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Has there *ever* been a vaccine with long term negative side effects which were not known after the first 3-4 months?  It's been 16 months since clinical trials started.  There is not a hidden side effect.
> 
> The vaccine isn't an unknown.  It is one of the most researched substances on the planet.
> 
> It isn't so much that they are your betters.  But they are better informed than you.
> 
> Either take the time to get informed, or stop pretending to understand things which you do not.


I really do respect your consistency but you live in a black/white world.  You leave little to nuance.  No bigee, just your personality.

Vaccines generally take much longer to develop, 2-10 yrs  for many.  These vaccines are outliers.  I believe they are safe since the science behind the vaccines are sound.  There have been side effects and there have been deaths associated with the application of the vaccine.  you can research on your own, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you've planted your flag. 

The benefit of the vaccine outweighs the risk for many.  For some (not a small number), the benefit doesn't outweight the risk.  Some of the most hardened "anti-vaxxers" are medical professionals who are naturally curious and skeptical.  And you are right, there aren't hidden side effects, they are right in front of us.  I've never seen a vaccine cause such adverse side effects as the MRNA vaccines, causing patients to present severe symptoms without testing postive.  It's anectodal for sure, but happens more than you think.  Those are still side effects.  Even newsweek tried to disprove that the vaccines have caused death and couldn't.  VAERS is an open system but even with that, it can't be 100% proven that vaccines didn't cause death.  You can also say that someone died with the vaccine and not from the vaccine...sound familiar?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Mr. Makary is a gastrointestinal surgeon.
> 
> He's the one to visit if you give up on the diet and decide to have the stomach stapling surgery.
> 
> Which, given your thumbnail image, you might want to consider....


LOL! Seriously, fat shaming? so schoolgirl of you. You win again!


----------



## what-happened

Bruddah IZ said:


> BTW if it was the most researched substance on the planet as he alleges, then why haven't we used it to cure cancer, heart disease, the two top killers in the U.S..  Dad just spouts from his trance like whirling.


But it gets better, "they" can't even figure out why natural immunity out performs vaccine immunity, by a long shot..  You would have thought this would have been studied concurrently.  For many, vaccination is the way to go, also for many, it's not the way to go if you've already caught the big 19.  

The government wanting to vaccinate those already infected, older or immnocompromised should make everyone's ears perk up.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Margery Smelkinson, Ph.D.
@MSmelkinsonPhD

Paper suggests 1/3 kids had alpha.  Then a lot more got delta. *Think of all the quarantines and school closures that could be avoided if we counted these kids as immune. We are not doing anyone any favors by continuing to ignore natural immunity.*



Emergence of SARS-CoV-2 Alpha (B.1.1.7) variant, infection rates, antibody seroconversion and seroprevalence rates in secondary school students and staff: Active prospective surveillance, December 2020 to March 2021, England


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> LOL! Seriously, fat shaming? so schoolgirl of you. You win again!


Lighten up.  He probably looks no more like his picture than you look like yours.  Welcome to the internet.  Images are misleading here.

The point is that the best spokesman for his position is a surgeon.  Not a virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researcher.  A surgeon.  Not even remotely qualified to interpret the data.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Not a virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researcher.  A surgeon.  Not even remotely qualified to interpret the data.


You mean because virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researchers see patients?  Please continue.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> But it gets better, "they" can't even figure out why natural immunity out performs vaccine immunity, by a long shot..  You would have thought this would have been studied concurrently.  For many, vaccination is the way to go, also for many, it's not the way to go if you've already caught the big 19.
> 
> The government wanting to vaccinate those already infected, older or immnocompromised should make everyone's ears perk up.


Funny how Dad goes after the Surgeon rather than the data that the surgeon links where virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researchers do interpret the data that is referenced in the post.  Poor guy.  He's getting peppered with facts that he is ill qualified to refute since he is not a virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researcher himself.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> But it gets better, "they" can't even figure out why natural immunity out performs vaccine immunity, by a long shot..  You would have thought this would have been studied concurrently.  For many, vaccination is the way to go, also for many, it's not the way to go if you've already caught the big 19.
> 
> The government wanting to vaccinate those already infected, older or immnocompromised should make everyone's ears perk up.


Maybe "they" can't figure out the cause because it isn't actually true.

Mr. Makary provides no link for his "27 times" claim.

He does link to a CDC study.  The study says that vaccination after an infection improves your immunity.  (Natural + vax is better than natural alone.)

Makary misreads this to mean natural immunity is better than vaccinated. 

You have a surgeon who is having trouble reading even a basic scientific paper.  Do you have anyone qualified?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Maybe "they" can't figure out the cause because it isn't actually true.
> 
> Mr. Makary provides no link for his "27 times" claim.
> 
> He does link to a CDC study.  The study says that vaccination after an infection improves your immunity.  (Natural + vax is better than natural alone.)
> 
> Makary misreads this to mean natural immunity is better than vaccinated.
> 
> You have a surgeon who is having trouble reading even a basic scientific paper.  Do you have anyone qualified?


You didn't read the Wall Street article.  No wonder you missed the link.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Maybe "they" can't figure out the cause because it isn't actually true.
> 
> Mr. Makary provides no link for his "27 times" claim.
> 
> He does link to a CDC study.  The study says that vaccination after an infection improves your immunity.  (Natural + vax is better than natural alone.)
> 
> Makary misreads this to mean natural immunity is better than vaccinated.
> 
> You have a surgeon who is having trouble reading even a basic scientific paper.  Do you have anyone qualified?


Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Results*
Overall, 673,676 MHS members 16 years and older were eligible for the study group of fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals; 62,883 were eligible for the study group of unvaccinated previously infected individuals and 42,099 individuals were eligible for the study group of previously infected and single-dose vaccinees.

*Model 1 – previously infected vs. vaccinated individuals, with matching for time of first event*
In model 1, we matched 16,215 persons in each group. Overall, demographic characteristics were similar between the groups, with some differences in their comorbidity profile (Table 1a).

Collapse inline
View popup







Collapse inline
View popup






During the follow-up period, 257 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection were recorded, of which 238 occurred in the vaccinated group (breakthrough infections) and 19 in the previously infected group (reinfections). After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a statistically significant 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection as opposed to reinfection (_P_<0.001). Apart from age ≥60 years, there was no statistical evidence that any of the assessed comorbidities significantly affected the risk of an infection during the follow-up period (Table 2a). As for symptomatic SARS-COV-2 infections during the follow-up period, 199 cases were recorded, 191 of which were in the vaccinated group and 8 in the previously infected group. Symptoms for all analyses were recorded in the central database within 5 days of the positive RT-PCR test for 90% of the patients, and included chiefly fever, cough, breathing difficulties, diarrhea, loss of taste or smell, myalgia, weakness, headache and sore throat. *After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk (95% CI, 12.7 to 57.5) for symptomatic breakthrough infection as opposed to symptomatic reinfection (P<0.001) (Table 2b).* None of the covariates were significant, except for age ≥60 years.

Nine cases of COVID-19-related hospitalizations were recorded, 8 of which were in the vaccinated group and 1 in the previously infected group (Table S1). No COVID-19-related deaths were recorded in our cohorts.


----------



## crush

This is what Dad dreamed last night


----------



## crush

News from down under.  Officer Espola doing his thang.......









						E  G  O
					

......this is po-licing by E  G  O ..............




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1437801019342196741
High BMI (#obesity) is associated with worse #COVID_19 outcomes - significantly higher risk of hospitalization, ventilation, and death. Why? Obesity causes inflammation, which impairs immune function, and decreases lung capacity. Source: Kompaniyets et al. 2021 
@CDCMMWR


----------



## Bruddah IZ

That obesity is an important only risk factor for poor COVID outcomes was known early in the epidemic. Nevertheless, we adopted lockdowns which caused more obesity. The worse COVID results in turn increased demand for lockdown...

Jay Bhattacharya
Professor Stanford School of Medicine. MD, PhD. Health policy: infectious diseases, COVID, health economics. Scientific freedom


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Lighten up.  He probably looks no more like his picture than you look like yours.  Welcome to the internet.  Images are misleading here.
> 
> The point is that the best spokesman for his position is a surgeon.  Not a virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researcher.  A surgeon.  Not even remotely qualified to interpret the data.


I agree, images are misleading here...yours should be an "L"


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> You mean because virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researchers see patients?  Please continue.


How, exactly, does doing a gastric bypass operation prepare someone to understand medical research papers on coronavirus immunity?

I don’t doubt whether he is qualified to remove colon polyps.  I doubt whether he is qualified to write an article on covid immunity.

The medarxiv article itself is interesting.  It does not, however, say what Makary claimed it said.  ( 1 versus 8 hospitalizations is not the same as “27 times as much protection.” )


----------



## watfly

Listening to the testimony of the gymnasts molested by Nassar should remind us all that the government, particularly bureaucrats, don't have our best interests in mind when it comes to public health.  Bureaucrats are only interested in covering their own ass.   And when bureaucrats fail, other bureaucrats circle the wagons to protect them.  The fact that the Justice Department refuses to prosecute the FBI employees who failed to investigate the abuse is very troubling.


----------



## Grace T.

The review in the WSJ of Gottlieb's new book...one expert criticizing other experts.









						‘Uncontrolled Spread’ Review: Tested and Found Wanting
					

A former Food and Drug Administration commissioner surveys what went wrong with America’s response to the Covid pandemic.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Results*
> Overall, 673,676 MHS members 16 years and older were eligible for the study group of fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals; 62,883 were eligible for the study group of unvaccinated previously infected individuals and 42,099 individuals were eligible for the study group of previously infected and single-dose vaccinees.
> 
> *Model 1 – previously infected vs. vaccinated individuals, with matching for time of first event*
> In model 1, we matched 16,215 persons in each group. Overall, demographic characteristics were similar between the groups, with some differences in their comorbidity profile (Table 1a).
> 
> Collapse inline
> View popup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Collapse inline
> View popup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During the follow-up period, 257 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection were recorded, of which 238 occurred in the vaccinated group (breakthrough infections) and 19 in the previously infected group (reinfections). After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a statistically significant 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection as opposed to reinfection (_P_<0.001). Apart from age ≥60 years, there was no statistical evidence that any of the assessed comorbidities significantly affected the risk of an infection during the follow-up period (Table 2a). As for symptomatic SARS-COV-2 infections during the follow-up period, 199 cases were recorded, 191 of which were in the vaccinated group and 8 in the previously infected group. Symptoms for all analyses were recorded in the central database within 5 days of the positive RT-PCR test for 90% of the patients, and included chiefly fever, cough, breathing difficulties, diarrhea, loss of taste or smell, myalgia, weakness, headache and sore throat. *After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk (95% CI, 12.7 to 57.5) for symptomatic breakthrough infection as opposed to symptomatic reinfection (P<0.001) (Table 2b).* None of the covariates were significant, except for age ≥60 years.
> 
> Nine cases of COVID-19-related hospitalizations were recorded, 8 of which were in the vaccinated group and 1 in the previously infected group (Table S1). No COVID-19-related deaths were recorded in our cohorts.


Why is it that anti-vaxxers claim vaccines are unsafe despite every study imaginable telling them otherwise because "only time will tell" and the future is "unknowable", yet they claim that natural immunity is safer for us in the long term because a study tells us that?  Why is it that the future is knowable to them only if they think it supports their narrative, but is not when it doesn't?

Regardless, this study is a perfect example of the lengths to which anti-vaxxers will go to misrepresent what something means, or they're just too stupid to understand what a study does and doesn't mean.  Yes, those with natural immunity have longer lasting protection against infection, just like pretty much everyone who develops natural immunity from an illness that doesn't kill them, like polio and smallpox had stronger immunity than a vaccine could provide.  Do you see where this is going?

The other thing about this study is that it compares people who got vaccinated with a sample of those who got Covid, excluding the approximately 700,000 unvaccinated people who have died from it plus all the others who have suffered debilitating long term complications.  I guess we don't need seatbelts, because if you exclude all the people who died not wearing them, no one dies from not wearing seatbelts.  I guess we don't need penicillin because if you just exclude all the people who die from infections because they did not take penicillin, no one dies from infections.

None of this changes the unquestionable conclusion that acquired immunity through vaccination is safer overall than natural immunity.  If you get vaccinated, it is much less likely you will get Covid than if you aren't, and there is virtually a 0% chance that you will get seriously ill let alone die from Covid.  If you rely on natural immunity, however, you'll only be in much better shape unless it kills you or you become seriously ill from it of course.  Natural immunity has a 100% chance of saving your life if you aren't like one of the approximately 700,000 so far for whom it didn't work at all. And if you're vaccinated, you are a much lower risk to transmit it to someone else, whereas if you rely on "natural immunity", you only become a reduced risk to transmit it to others after you've already given it to everyone around you when you got it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> How, exactly, does doing a gastric bypass operation prepare someone to understand medical research papers on coronavirus immunity?


There is this thing called med school.  Maybe you've heard of it?



dad4 said:


> I don’t doubt whether he is qualified to remove colon polyps.  I doubt whether he is qualified to write an article on covid immunity.


There is this thing called med school.  Maybe you've heard of it?  But to your point, you'll notice he cites a study that you didn't read.  Or worse, you did read it and did comprehend it but can't bring yourself to admit that there is an Army of doctors out there that are smarter than you 



dad4 said:


> The medarxiv article itself is interesting.  It does not, however, say what Makary claimed it said.  ( 1 versus 8 hospitalizations is not the same as “27 times as much protection.” )


Okay.  You got me there.  27.02 is what it said.  Happy?


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Funny how Dad goes after the Surgeon rather than the data that the surgeon links where virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researchers do interpret the data that is referenced in the post.  Poor guy.  He's getting peppered with facts that he is ill qualified to refute since he is not a virologist, epidemiologist, or vaccine researcher himself.


I still don’t get what you are advocating.  You seem to think that the best way to reduce covid infections is for everyone to get infected with covid.

That’s like solving alcoholism by getting so drunk you can’t walk to the liquor cabinet.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Listening to the testimony of the gymnasts molested by Nassar should remind us all that the government, particularly bureaucrats, don't have our best interests in mind when it comes to public health.  Bureaucrats are only interested in covering their own ass.   And when bureaucrats fail, other bureaucrats circle the wagons to protect them.  The fact that the Justice Department refuses to prosecute the FBI employees who failed to investigate the abuse is very troubling.


If a Michigan State employee covered up molestation by Nasser, that definitely means we should not listen to what medical experts say about vaccines, or anything for that matter.

You should ask a mental health expert about paranoid personality disorder, the essential characteristic of which is "a relentless mistrust and suspicion of others without adequate reason to be suspicious."  Be careful, however, because the mental health expert may be in on the conspiracy.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> If a Michigan State employee covered up molestation by Nasser, that definitely means we should not listen to what medical experts say about vaccines, or anything for that matter.
> 
> You should ask a mental health expert about paranoid personality disorder, the essential characteristic of which is "a relentless mistrust and suspicion of others without adequate reason to be suspicious."  Be careful, however, because the mental health expert may be in on the conspiracy.


I wish it had only been a Michigan State employee that covered it up.  Unfortunately, the FBI participated as well and now the Justice Department refuses to prosecute.  I hope that the might change given the Democrats strong worded objections to lack of prosecution.

You're again barking up the wrong tree.  I'm pro-Vax, but you're gaslighting by claiming vaccines are better than natural immunity from prior infection.  My point is trust but verify when it comes to vaccines.   You want us to ignore any criticism of the vaccines.  "Nothing to see here, just obey".


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

GoldenGate said:


> The other thing about this study is that it compares people who got vaccinated with a sample of those who got Covid, excluding the approximately 700,000 unvaccinated people who have died from it plus all the others who have suffered debilitating long term complications.


This particular study has been linked and/or regurgitated out of twitter feeds several times now.  If you look more broadly it is clearly a talisman link for the anti-vaxx crowd. I posted a critique of it many pages back but maybe worth repeating a few points.  A cohort study like they did is a fine approach to examine the issue of sustained immunity, but it does come with some associated problems. One problem is if the outcome of interest (in this case delta infection) is rare within the cohorts.  Then you can get statistical artifacts with how the outcome bins between the two groups.  That is a possibility in this study where there are only ~250 cases of delta infection.  In some ways, the main conclusion of the study is that, regardless of immune priming by viral infection vs vaccination, subsequent reinfection is rare.  The next question becomes what's different about the small ~250 people that had acquired immunity but were re-infected?  From a biological standpoint, that's interesting and, from my back and forth with the editors at Science, that's why they decided to do a highlight of it (even prior to completion of peer review).  It's known that different people maintain different levels of circulating antibodies post infection or vaxx.  It can vary widely. Examples of that phenomenon have even been posted on this site.  The why of that probably has to do with lots of stuff that are of interest to immunologists and epidemiologists.  At any rate, if those factors are in effect a "comorbitity" that was not accounted for in setting up the original cohorts, and vaxxed represent something like 70-ish percent of the study population, you will also tend to see biased binning between the cohorts.

Anyway, it was an interesting exchange with the editors at Science.  The issue becomes, in a raging infodemic, to what extent do scientists bear a responsibility to insulate their work from being mis-appropriated.  Or is that not a responsibility that should be placed up them.  There is no bright line, but editorial policies probably need to change to address the issue.  Unfortunately, the outcome in this case is that how ~250 cases bin one way or another gets expressed as an odds risk of 13X which is then talisman linked to mean that there is now indisputable evidence that "natural immunity" (as if there is any other kind) due to viral infection much better than vaccination.  It's rediculous, and a silly argument anyway.  But that's a extbook example of the infodemic in action.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> There is this thing called med school.  Maybe you've heard of it?
> 
> There is this thing called med school.  Maybe you've heard of it?  But to your point, you'll notice he cites a study that you didn't read.  Or worse, you did read it and did comprehend it but can't bring yourself to admit that there is an Army of doctors out there that are smarter than you
> 
> Okay.  You got me there.  27.02 is what it said.  Happy?


Which thing is 27.02 times which other thing?

From the study:
“After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk (95% CI, 12.7 to 57.5) for symptomatic breakthrough infection as opposed to symptomatic reinfection (P<0.001)”

From your unqualified yokel:
“ On Aug. 25, Israel published the most powerful and scientifically rigorous study on the subject to date. In a sample of more than 700,000 people, natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity in preventing symptomatic infections.”

Can you see the difference?  Your yokel saw that one _*infection rate*_ was 27.02 times another, and thought it meant that one *reduction* is 27.02 times the other.  Not the same at all.  

Still claiming that your guy got it right?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I wish it had only been a Michigan State employee that covered it up.  Unfortunately, the FBI participated as well and now the Justice Department refuses to prosecute.  I hope that the might change given the Democrats strong worded objections to lack of prosecution.
> 
> You're again barking up the wrong tree.  I'm pro-Vax, but you're gaslighting by claiming vaccines are better than natural immunity from prior infection.  My point is trust but verify when it comes to vaccines.   You want us to ignore any criticism of the vaccines.  "Nothing to see here, just obey".


what do you suggest we do with the information on natural immunity?

Clearly, it is not enough that someone thinks they already had covid.  

Are you saying that a positive test for covid antibodies should count towards vaccination requirements?  Or only those who have a prior positive PCR test result?


----------



## espola

A large proportion of the world's population thinks this guy is always right, so...









						Pope urges COVID inoculations, says vaccines are humanity's friends
					

Pope Francis said on Wednesday he was puzzled why so many people, including some cardinals in Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, have refused to get inoculated against COVID-19.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Why is it that anti-vaxxers claim vaccines are unsafe despite every study imaginable telling them otherwise because "only time will tell" and the future is "unknowable", yet they claim that natural immunity is safer for us in the long term because a study tells us that?  Why is it that the future is knowable to them only if they think it supports their narrative, but is not when it doesn't?


Lol! Why is it that anti-immune system folks make the false claim that pro-immune system folks claim that vaccines are unsafe despite every study imaginable telling them that vaccines marginally protect folks compared to natural infection?  It is true that "only time will tell" if you bothered to look at the data from previous respiratory pandemics.  The future is "knowable" enough if you are willing to look at the past.  Natural immunity has been safer for us in the long term because the data is consistent with past respiratory pandemics, even in the absence of NPI and SIP policies.  The future is predictable to pro-immune system folks.  And CDC data driven too.  Your accusations of a narrative that you disagree with is a Strawman.



GoldenGate said:


> Regardless, this study is a perfect example of the lengths to which anti-vaxxers will go to misrepresent what something means, or they're just too stupid to understand what a study does and doesn't mean.  Yes, those with natural immunity have longer lasting protection against infection, just like pretty much everyone who develops natural immunity from an illness that doesn't kill them, like polio and smallpox had stronger immunity than a vaccine could provide.  Do you see where this is going?


Regardless, your response is a perfect example of the lengths to which you anti-immune system folks will go to misrepresent what something means, or are just too stupid to understand what means to your false narrative.  Yes, those with natural immunity have longer lasting protection against infection, just like pretty much everyone who develops natural immunity from an illness that doesn't kill them.  Is this your mea culpa?



GoldenGate said:


> The other thing about this study is that it compares people who got vaccinated with a sample of those who got Covid, excluding the approximately 700,000 unvaccinated people who have died from it plus all the others who have suffered debilitating long term complications.  I guess we don't need seatbelts, because if you exclude all the people who died not wearing them, no one dies from not wearing seatbelts.  I guess we don't need penicillin because if you just exclude all the people who die from infections because they did not take penicillin, no one dies from infections.


  Lol!  I cant imagine why they would have excluded 700,000 DEAD people from the study.  You sound desperate.



GoldenGate said:


> None of this changes the unquestionable conclusion that acquired immunity through vaccination is safer overall than natural immunity.  If you get vaccinated, it is much less likely you will get Covid than if you aren't, and there is virtually a 0% chance that you will get seriously ill let alone die from Covid.  If you rely on natural immunity, however, you'll only be in much better shape unless it kills you or you become seriously ill from it of course.  Natural immunity has a 100% chance of saving your life if you aren't like one of the approximately 700,000 so far for whom it didn't work at all. And if you're vaccinated, you are a much lower risk to transmit it to someone else, whereas if you rely on "natural immunity", you only become a reduced risk to transmit it to others after you've already given it to everyone around you when you got it.


So much for Science.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Are you saying that a positive test for covid antibodies should count towards vaccination requirements?  Or only those who have a prior positive PCR test result?


Well I'm opposed to mandates in most cases, but if vaccinations are mandated, natural immunity should be considered as an acceptable alternative since it provides superior immunity.  All that should be necessary would be proof of an infection, which would be easily attainable from your healthcare provider, just as a vaccination card is.   Antibody tests aren't being required for the vaccinated so it shouldn't be required for the naturally immune.   In both cases immunity likely wanes over time, but there doesn't appear to be any substantive evidence of which one provides longer protection.

I would still suggest that its preferable to get a vaccine even if you've been infected.  However, having natural immunity is a good faith objection to not getting vaccinated.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I still don’t get what you are advocating.  You seem to think that the best way to reduce covid infections is for everyone to get infected with covid.


I think you're avoiding the Science, past and present.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Which thing is 27.02 times which other thing?
> 
> From the study:
> “After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk (95% CI, 12.7 to 57.5) for symptomatic breakthrough infection as opposed to symptomatic reinfection (P<0.001)”
> 
> From your unqualified yokel:
> “ On Aug. 25, Israel published the most powerful and scientifically rigorous study on the subject to date. In a sample of more than 700,000 people, natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity in preventing symptomatic infections.”
> 
> Can you see the difference?  Your yokel saw that one _*infection rate*_ was 27.02 times another, and thought it meant that one *reduction* is 27.02 times the other.  Not the same at all.
> 
> Still claiming that your guy got it right?


Lol! Please continue.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Maybe "they" can't figure out the cause because it isn't actually true.
> 
> Mr. Makary provides no link for his "27 times" claim.
> 
> He does link to a CDC study.  The study says that vaccination after an infection improves your immunity.  (Natural + vax is better than natural alone.)
> 
> Makary misreads this to mean natural immunity is better than vaccinated.
> 
> You have a surgeon who is having trouble reading even a basic scientific paper.  Do you have anyone qualified?


I don't get you.  My point isn't hybrid immunity, it's natural VS vaccine.  There are studies that suggest hybrid immunity MAY be better at preventing re-infection.  The jury is still out and it's something that should be studied. Talk to you dr.  If you are a low risk person who's had covid, getting the vaccine could be pointless.  If YOU want hybrid immunity,have at it.  Fortunately, for now, we have choices.  If you've had covid and in the high risk demographic,  get a vaccinated.  Pretty simple.  

It's the mandates that are going to drive previously infected people crazy..and it should.  Mandating stuff for low risk healthy people is silly.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This particular study has been linked and/or regurgitated out of twitter feeds several times now.  If you look more broadly it is clearly a talisman link for the anti-vaxx crowd. I posted a critique of it many pages back but maybe worth repeating a few points.  A cohort study like they did is a fine approach to examine the issue of sustained immunity, but it does come with some associated problems. One problem is if the outcome of interest (in this case delta infection) is rare within the cohorts.  Then you can get statistical artifacts with how the outcome bins between the two groups.  That is a possibility in this study where there are only ~250 cases of delta infection.  In some ways, the main conclusion of the study is that, regardless of immune priming by viral infection vs vaccination, subsequent reinfection is rare.  The next question becomes what's different about the small ~250 people that had acquired immunity but were re-infected?  From a biological standpoint, that's interesting and, from my back and forth with the editors at Science, that's why they decided to do a highlight of it (even prior to completion of peer review).  It's known that different people maintain different levels of circulating antibodies post infection or vaxx.  It can vary widely. Examples of that phenomenon have even been posted on this site.  The why of that probably has to do with lots of stuff that are of interest to immunologists and epidemiologists.  At any rate, if those factors are in effect a "comorbitity" that was not accounted for in setting up the original cohorts, and vaxxed represent something like 70-ish percent of the study population, you will also tend to see biased binning between the cohorts.
> 
> Anyway, it was an interesting exchange with the editors at Science.  The issue becomes, in a raging infodemic, to what extent do scientists bear a responsibility to insulate their work from being mis-appropriated.  Or is that not a responsibility that should be placed up them.  There is no bright line, but editorial policies probably need to change to address the issue.  Unfortunately, the outcome in this case is that how ~250 cases bin one way or another gets expressed as an odds risk of 13X which is then talisman linked to mean that there is now indisputable evidence that "natural immunity" (as if there is any other kind) due to viral infection much better than vaccination.  It's rediculous, and a silly argument anyway.  But that's a extbook example of the infodemic in action.


Whew!  I thought you were making a case for mandating vaccines for the previously infected.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> I don't get you.  My point isn't hybrid immunity, it's natural VS vaccine.  There are studies that suggest hybrid immunity MAY be better at preventing re-infection.  The jury is still out and it's something that should be studied. Talk to you dr.  If you are a low risk person who's had covid, getting the vaccine could be pointless.  If YOU want hybrid immunity,have at it.  Fortunately, for now, we have choices.  If you've had covid and in the high risk demographic,  get a vaccinated.  Pretty simple.
> 
> It's the mandates that are going to drive previously infected people crazy..and it should.  Mandating stuff for low risk healthy people is silly.


The Tyranny of tiny risk


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Why is it that anti-vaxxers claim vaccines are unsafe despite every study imaginable telling them otherwise because "only time will tell" and the future is "unknowable", yet they claim that natural immunity is safer for us in the long term because a study tells us that?  Why is it that the future is knowable to them only if they think it supports their narrative, but is not when it doesn't?
> 
> Regardless, this study is a perfect example of the lengths to which anti-vaxxers will go to misrepresent what something means, or they're just too stupid to understand what a study does and doesn't mean.  Yes, those with natural immunity have longer lasting protection against infection, just like pretty much everyone who develops natural immunity from an illness that doesn't kill them, like polio and smallpox had stronger immunity than a vaccine could provide.  Do you see where this is going?
> 
> The other thing about this study is that it compares people who got vaccinated with a sample of those who got Covid, excluding the approximately 700,000 unvaccinated people who have died from it plus all the others who have suffered debilitating long term complications.  I guess we don't need seatbelts, because if you exclude all the people who died not wearing them, no one dies from not wearing seatbelts.  I guess we don't need penicillin because if you just exclude all the people who die from infections because they did not take penicillin, no one dies from infections.
> 
> None of this changes the unquestionable conclusion that acquired immunity through vaccination is safer overall than natural immunity.  If you get vaccinated, it is much less likely you will get Covid than if you aren't, and there is virtually a 0% chance that you will get seriously ill let alone die from Covid.  If you rely on natural immunity, however, you'll only be in much better shape unless it kills you or you become seriously ill from it of course.  Natural immunity has a 100% chance of saving your life if you aren't like one of the approximately 700,000 so far for whom it didn't work at all. And if you're vaccinated, you are a much lower risk to transmit it to someone else, whereas if you rely on "natural immunity", you only become a reduced risk to transmit it to others after you've already given it to everyone around you when you got it.


How I wish there was a popcorn eating emoji


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> How I wish there was a popcorn eating emoji


I heard Jim cut a deal with t and the real military and is playing Biden a 1/3 of the time with a "Biden Mask."  Not sure if it's true or not, it's just a rumor from a dear friend of another friend who knows someone in the know.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Whew!  I thought you were making a case for mandating vaccines for the previously infected.


The main point is that the purpose and conclusions of that particular study do not support the claims that you are, directly or indirectly through talisman linking, are trying to place upon it.

My personal opinion on mandating vaxx, while irrelevant, is that I don't care whether an adult chooses to do it or not.  I recognize there is a public policy issue at the moment about documenting immune exposure for a viral infection versus vaxx, but I'm agnostic on it. Once the under 12 crowd has the option of the vaxx, my personal opinion, like I've said before, is that its Balfour time.  There are those here that say kids have no real risk, etc. The argument for why one might consider that population, however, is precisely logically equivalent to "nobody has a crystal ball so we just don't know if the vaccine will have long term complications".


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The main point is that the purpose and conclusions of that particular study do not support the claims that you are, directly or indirectly through talisman linking, are trying to place upon it.
> 
> My personal opinion on mandating vaxx, while irrelevant, is that I don't care whether an adult chooses to do it or not.  I recognize there is a public policy issue at the moment about documenting immune exposure for a viral infection versus vaxx, but I'm agnostic on it. Once the under 12 crowd has the option of the vaxx, my personal opinion, like I've said before, is that its Balfour time.  There are those here that say kids have no real risk, etc. The argument for why one might consider that population, however, is precisely logically equivalent to "nobody has a crystal ball so we just don't know if the vaccine will have long term complications".


So you'd be o.k. when 5-12 get the vaccine, or are we waiting for 1-5 (because the under 6 months quite possibly will not have the vaccine approved)?  If the 1-5 you are saying you are waiting a year plus, or are you privy to a shorter time table (because Fauci said a few weeks back 5-12 was this winter)?

If I understand correctly your argument is that people are making the argument we don't know what the long term implications of a vaccine are.  But you point out we don't know what the long term effects of the virus are.   Therefore, aren't both risks the same? That argument would be a great one if the vaccine prevented infection, but we know now it doesn't. do that 100%.  The public health authorities say it's in the 80% neighborhood, but there's some evidence it is less, perhaps even substantially so.  Given that an unvaxxed under 12 has a lower risk of death or hospitalization than a vaxxed over 40, that's just not a convincing argument.  It follows if we concerned about the unvaxxed under 12, we should be more worried about the vaxxed over 40.  If the vaxx were bullet proof it would at least a compelling argument, but we know the vaxx isn't.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well I'm opposed to mandates in most cases, but if vaccinations are mandated, natural immunity should be considered as an acceptable alternative since it provides superior immunity.  All that should be necessary would be proof of an infection, which would be easily attainable from your healthcare provider, just as a vaccination card is.   Antibody tests aren't being required for the vaccinated so it shouldn't be required for the naturally immune.   In both cases immunity likely wanes over time, but there doesn't appear to be any substantive evidence of which one provides longer protection.
> 
> I would still suggest that its preferable to get a vaccine even if you've been infected.  However, having natural immunity is a good faith objection to not getting vaccinated.


That sounds fair.  I’d be happy with either a confirmed infection or an antibody test.  As long as it is verified.  

There is also a strong argument that it is unfair to vaccinate known recovered patients while almost all of Africa is unvaccinated.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> That sounds fair.  I’d be happy with either a confirmed infection or an antibody test.  As long as it is verified.
> 
> There is also a strong argument that it is unfair to vaccinate known recovered patients while almost all of Africa is unvaccinated.


You two should get a room and have cheers together....lol!!!


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I don't get you.  My point isn't hybrid immunity, it's natural VS vaccine.  There are studies that suggest hybrid immunity MAY be better at preventing re-infection.  The jury is still out and it's something that should be studied. Talk to you dr.  If you are a low risk person who's had covid, getting the vaccine could be pointless.  If YOU want hybrid immunity,have at it.  Fortunately, for now, we have choices.  If you've had covid and in the high risk demographic,  get a vaccinated.  Pretty simple.
> 
> It's the mandates that are going to drive previously infected people crazy..and it should.  Mandating stuff for low risk healthy people is silly.


There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument.  They both work extremely well.

The vast majority of the US 12+ population does not have verified natural immunity.   There are only about 40M people who have tested positive.  

The main policy question is whether there should be a vaccine mandate for the 240 million people who cannot demonstrate natural immunity.  Whether to exempt the other 40 million is a relatively minor policy question.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> You two should get a room and have cheers together....lol!!!


productive discussions are rare these days.  Worth raising a pint to the concept.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> productive discussions are rare these days.  Worth raising a pint to the concept.


You two are Pro-Vax Dads and 99% of my male friends are Pro-Vax too.  I am getting squeezed out of the state.  I want to stay, I really really do.  The warrior ((William Wallace)) in me wants to duke it out with my words but I'm too old for this and we have way too many Robert the Bruce in these parts.  Milk toast dads...lol!!!  I was hoping I could get some to see my side but their putting their chips in with the jab and compliance.  I get it.  I will be 55 in November and dont have the mental toughness to deal with folks like you anymore.  You win and I will leave 100%.  I need some time with my dd before she graduates.  I wont tell her the news that I know Grace knows about.  It's super weak and low bro but that's how you guys decided to play.  This is over my head now and I see the writing on the wall.  Bye bye!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> So you'd be o.k. when 5-12 get the vaccine, or are we waiting for 1-5 (because the under 6 months quite possibly will not have the vaccine approved)?  If the 1-5 you are saying you are waiting a year plus, or are you privy to a shorter time table (because Fauci said a few weeks back 5-12 was this winter)?


Fauci's timetable?  Shrug.  What stuffed shirts like Rand Paul have to say?  Double shrug.



Grace T. said:


> If I understand correctly your argument is that people are making the argument we don't know what the long term implications of a vaccine are.  But you point out we don't know what the long term effects of the virus are.   Therefore, aren't both risks the same?


If a risk is hypothetical, or even potentially known but not quantifiable, they cannot be compared to one another in any truly objective way.  You can say, likely both are small.  You can say here is the one i think is important.  but you are forced to weigh them against one another based on a non-quantitative framework. Maybe the come out the same for you.



Grace T. said:


> That argument would be a great one if the vaccine prevented infection, but we know now it doesn't. do that 100%.  The public health authorities say it's in the 80% neighborhood, but there's some evidence it is less, perhaps even substantially so.  Given that an unvaxxed under 12 has a lower risk of death or hospitalization than a vaxxed over 40, that's just not a convincing argument.  It follows if we concerned about the unvaxxed under 12, we should be more worried about the vaxxed over 40.  If the vaxx were bullet proof it would at least a compelling argument, but we know the vaxx isn't.


With respect, once you get to "nothing's 100%" in these sort of posts I tend to lose track of what you are trying to say.  Of course the vaccine has a lower efficacy for community transmission with delta then earlier lower R0 variants.  My hypothetical concern with the youngers has nothing to do with efficacy of the vaccine against community transmission.  It has to do with what constitutes a naieve innate immune system and why these respiratory syndroms caused by coronaviruses tend to create such a variable tipping point for some conglomeration of immune mediated cell lysis, cytokine dumping, IL-6 inflammation loop amplifcation etc.  If we were to go through subsequent viral waves, with each wave those immune systems are getting less and less naieve. That gets into the weeds, probably not something people want to get into here. But its something some people are thinking about.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument.  They both work extremely well.


Nice try.  So why the anti-immune system attitude via a vax or else mandate?  



dad4 said:


> The vast majority of the US 12+ population does not have verified natural immunity.   There are only about 40M people who have tested positive.


Lol! Is that why you went super nova with the case count? The truth is that you really don't know how many folks have natural immunity.



dad4 said:


> The main policy question is whether there should be a vaccine mandate for the 240 million people who cannot demonstrate natural immunity.  Whether to exempt the other 40 million is a relatively minor policy question.


So much for *"There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument.  They both work extremely well".  *Funny watching you go full circle in one post


----------



## Bruddah IZ

There were 937,622 births yoy to date.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Nice try.  So why the anti-immune system attitude via a vax or else mandate?
> 
> Lol! Is that why you went super nova with the case count? The truth is that you really don't know how many folks have natural immunity.
> 
> So much for *"There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument.  They both work extremely well".  *Funny watching you go full circle in one post


He's happy with his big win. Bruddah IZ, the hammer is coming......


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> productive discussions are rare these days.  Worth raising a pint to the concept.


Can we not then agree as well that masks on 2 year olds (when we are one of the very few countries in the world requiring them this young), particularly those with special needs, are counterproductive?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438145136077246467


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> With respect, once you get to "nothing's 100%" in these sort of posts I tend to lose track of what you are trying to say.  Of course the vaccine has a lower efficacy for community transmission with delta then earlier lower R0 variants.  My hypothetical concern with the youngers has nothing to do with efficacy of the vaccine against community transmission.  It has to do with what constitutes a naieve innate immune system and why these respiratory syndroms caused by coronaviruses tend to create such a variable tipping point for some conglomeration of immune mediated cell lysis, cytokine dumping, IL-6 inflammation loop amplifcation etc.  If we were to go through subsequent viral waves, with each wave those immune systems are getting less and less naieve. That gets into the weeds, probably not something people want to get into here. But its something some people are thinking about.


Well the first argument for the under 12 needing to get vaxxed is because of community spread but you say your concern "with the youngers has nothing to do with efficacy of the vaccine against community transmission".  So we have to take it that you are not advocating the under 12 need to be vaxxed in order to lower community spread.

The second argument for the under 12 needing to get vaxxed is because of the risk to them.  You seem to imply here that it's because they have naive immune systems not previously exposed to the virus.  Your prior argument was also that we don't understand what the long term harm may be to them because of the virus.  But we do know the general risk of the virus to them (hospitalization, death, long COVID) is less than that of a 30 year old vaxxed person.  Your argument essentially postulates that there might be a long term unknown effect on them, that while not prevalent in a 30 year old vaxxed person (because their systems are not naive) is prevalent in an under 12 because their systems are naive, despite that 12 year olds have a lesser risk of hospitalization, death, long COVID than the 30 year old.  O.k.....we don't know what we don't know....but that would be quite a logical bend and that is VERY different than the argument we don't know what we don't know about vaccines because that argument lacks the converse bend you postulated.  Is it possible? Sure....but it's based on 2 assumptions: a. the vaxx does defends overwhelmingly (if not 100%) against this unknown harm in vaxxed people (and therefore they aren't at risk), and b. the children are at greater risk of this unknown harm despite being at lesser risk than a vaxxed person against all the other harms.  Not very probably, not equivalent.

With respect (not intended as a slur AT ALL), that leads to the conclusion that (more likely than not) you are trying to rationalize your fear (which is fine...it's what people do...fearful so you look for a reason to justify why your emotions are legitimate...your emotions are legitimate without having to justify them).  The other indication, BTW, is that you declined to leave a marker (since it is relevant)...are you talking all children (remember the under 6 months may NEVER get the vaccine approved) or 5-12 before you consider this over?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I wish it had only been a Michigan State employee that covered it up.  Unfortunately, the FBI participated as well and now the Justice Department refuses to prosecute.  I hope that the might change given the Democrats strong worded objections to lack of prosecution.
> 
> You're again barking up the wrong tree.  I'm pro-Vax, but you're gaslighting by claiming vaccines are better than natural immunity from prior infection.  My point is trust but verify when it comes to vaccines.   You want us to ignore any criticism of the vaccines.  "Nothing to see here, just obey".


Not doing one's job to your satisfaction is not a crime, nor should it be. The FBI investigators broke no laws by failing to find that Nasser did.  The FBI fired the lead investigator in very public fashion, which is the appropriate and only remedy. Or do you think we should throw the entire FBI in prison because they haven't caught the Zodiac killer?  And the entire Bush administration for not stopping 9/11 and then failing to catch Bin Laden?  Maybe we should throw all government healthcare workers in prison for not doing a good enough job convincing anti-vaxxers to stop getting people killed? Wow, this really is sounding like a big conspiracy.  I wonder how those voting machine companies were involved.

How do you propose we "trust but verify" who in a nation of 330 million people have natural immunity? Make all Americans who haven't been vaccinated to undergo a diagnostic test if they haven't been vaccinated? Do you really want the federal government demanding everyone's medical files? Schools? Employers?  And what tests should they be forced to rely on?  The current more accurate diagnostic tests?  Or are the unreliable ones good enough for you?  It sounds like you have all the answers.

Why is it that you think it is a contest between vaccine immunity and natural immunity?  Why can't you do both, especially since we know from numerous studies that vaccines are safe, and we also know, per the anti-vaxxers here, that we don't have crystal balls and therefore can't predict that any immunity will last beyond tomorrow?  Why should anyone be forced to take anti-vaxxers at their word that they "had covid" or "got vaccinated"?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Can we not then agree as well that masks on 2 year olds (when we are one of the very few countries in the world requiring them this young), particularly those with special needs, are counterproductive?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438145136077246467


Hurled off or forced off the airplane?  Hurled is strong language and makes me think of this picture below.  BTW, this is so sad that people like dad and other pro vaxers ((Robert the Bruce types)) do nothing because all their chips are all in with the old system.  I got forced off that Hamster wheel and at first I was all bitter and angry.  Today, I find peace in my soul and feel blessed to be the one called to this deep calling called, "just say no."  I have deep, deep emotional pain from my past and I have super deep, deep held religious and moral rejection to the injection jabs.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> *There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument.  They both work extremely well.*
> 
> The vast majority of the US 12+ population does not have verified natural immunity.   There are only about 40M people who have tested positive.
> 
> The main policy question is whether there should be a vaccine mandate for the 240 million people who cannot demonstrate natural immunity.  Whether to exempt the other 40 million is a relatively minor policy question.


There's plenty of divisive argument going on.  Scroll through your twitter feed, turn on the news, it's on display. Every talking head has an opionon, every book selling medical professional has an opinion.  

I don't disagree with most of your post.  I would counter that acknowledging 40M people is major, not minor.  The goverment should use this opporutnity to have a common sense discussion that focuses on inclusion for those who've had covid. .  Demonstrating sanity and sound reasoning would go a long way in re-establishing trust - maybe.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> A large proportion of the world's population thinks this guy is always right, so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pope urges COVID inoculations, says vaccines are humanity's friends
> 
> 
> Pope Francis said on Wednesday he was puzzled why so many people, including some cardinals in Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, have refused to get inoculated against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


If God told the Pope that people should get vaccinated, but you refuse to get vaccinated on the pretense that it is against your religion, does that mean you are bearing false witness and going to hell?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The main policy question is whether there should be a vaccine mandate for the 240 million people who cannot demonstrate natural immunity. Whether to exempt the other 40 million is a relatively minor policy question.


Actually the question should be...since the vast vast majority of people have little risk of the virus, why mandate them to get a vaccine. 

Unless you have serious health issues...or are past 70 with serious health issues, the virus really is not a concern. 

The people that have wanted to get vaccinated have. And the percentage in the high risk groups have done so at high rates. 

So mandating people with little to no risk to get a vaccine isn't good policy. Even more so when we do not have long term studies of potential side effects.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Can we not then agree as well that masks on 2 year olds (when we are one of the very few countries in the world requiring them this young), particularly those with special needs, are counterproductive?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438145136077246467


If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket.  Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months.  You‘ll be in good company.

What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket.  Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months.  You‘ll be in good company.
> 
> What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?


Err...I can think of a ton of reason outside of vacation.  When my kid was that age, I had to travel on a work trip (as a single parent could not leave the kid by himself), family funeral, moving to another place, split custody, caring for an aged grandmother, saying goodbye to a dying relative.  Lots of reasons.

We're one of the very few countries to mandate masks on 2 year olds, including those with special needs.  What's special about it is it's a 2 year old.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> *How do you propose we "trust but verify" who in a nation of 330 million people have natural immunity?*
> 
> *Why should anyone be forced to take anti-vaxxers at their word that they "had covid" or "got vaccinated"?*


EOTL is late to the game.  let me answer these two Qs.  Trust is key here.  I got Covid ((I got it, trust me)) back in Jan 2020, when it was on our plane.  I got so sick.  Not as bad as Dom got it, but I got it and I got the message my wife was trying to tell me two years prior about Bill, Dr. Batci and Jeffrey and their little plan.  Peace out


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Not doing one's job to your satisfaction is not a crime, nor should it be. The FBI investigators broke no laws by failing to find that Nasser did.  The FBI fired the lead investigator in very public fashion, which is the appropriate and only remedy.


I'd recommend you read up on the case because it goes way beyond not doing their job.  Both Senator Blumenthal and Leahy (also attorneys) are strongly recommending prosecution of the FBI agents.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket.  Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months.  You‘ll be in good company.
> 
> What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?


If your mask only works when other people wear their mask then do not buy the plane ticket.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket.  Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months.  You‘ll be in good company.
> 
> What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?


It's straight up cruel to mask a young child.  It is 100% safety theater when their are periods during the flight when adults aren't wearing a mask like when eating and drinking.  Some flights try to enforce mask wearing between sips and bites (absurdity), but most do not and allow you to take off your mask completely while eating and drinking.   It's really impressive how long a passenger can drag out the consumption of a small cup of soda and a bag of peanuts.  I'm getting pretty good at it myself.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket.  Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months.  You‘ll be in good company.
> 
> What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?


Grace T. is glossing over the fact that this has all the hallmarks of an irresponsible anti-vaxxer parent who has been risking giving Covid to her infant with a debilitating lung issues from birth.  Apparently, anti-vaxxer mommy subjected her child with serious asthma to Covid at home every day from birth. When that failed to kill her baby, she took him on a plane trip through a crowded airport in an area that currently ranks among the highest transmission and death rates in the U.S. due to the overall anti-vaxxer sentiment. She did this knowing her little baby can't wear a mask. And to maximize the chances of killing her child, she ignored AA's processes for seeking an exemption which might have given her and AA the ability to figure out a solution to this problem.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to get and die of covid, it is this one.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to spread covid to others, it is also this one. The real lessons to be learned here is that someone needs to call CPS, and that anti-vaxxers are easily manipulated into believing even the most bs narrative. This is the type of person that anti-vaxxers believe are heroes.  Soak it in.

I wonder why Grace T. believes private businesses like American Airlines should not be allowed to implement their own rules?  Is this a "strict construction" thing?  Did someone change the Commerce Clause without telling me and add something about how private companies can make their customers wear shirts, pants and shoes, just not masks?


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Grace T. is glossing over the fact that this has all the hallmarks of an irresponsible anti-vaxxer parent who has been risking giving Covid to her infant with a debilitating lung issues from birth.  Apparently, anti-vaxxer mommy subjected her child with serious asthma to Covid at home every day from birth. When that failed to kill her baby, she took him on a plane trip through a crowded airport in an area that currently ranks among the highest transmission and death rates in the U.S. due to the overall anti-vaxxer sentiment. She did this knowing her little baby can't wear a mask. And to maximize the chances of killing her child, she ignored AA's processes for seeking an exemption which might have given her and AA the ability to figure out a solution to this problem.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to get and die of covid, it is this one.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to spread covid to others, it is also this one. The real lessons to be learned here is that someone needs to call CPS, and that anti-vaxxers are easily manipulated into believing even the most bs narrative. This is the type of person that anti-vaxxers believe are heroes.  Soak it in.
> 
> I wonder why Grace T. believes private businesses like American Airlines should not be allowed to implement their own rules?  Is this a "strict construction" thing?  Did someone change the Commerce Clause without telling me and add something about how private companies can make their customers wear shirts, pants and shoes, just not masks?


Maybe I'm slow, but I wasn't convinced that GoldenGate was EOTL, but that level of fiction is a clearly tell-tale marker that GG is EOTL.  Welcome back.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Maybe I'm slow, but I wasn't convinced that GoldenGate was EOTL, but that level of fiction is a clearly tell-tale marker that GG is EOTL.


who is this EOTL character?  Code word for low rent entertainment?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> It's straight up cruel to mask a young child.  It is 100% safety theater when their are periods during the flight when adults aren't wearing a mask like when eating and drinking.  Some flights try to enforce mask wearing between sips and bites (absurdity), but most do not and allow you to take off your mask completely while eating and drinking.   It's really impressive how long a passenger can drag out the consumption of a small cup of soda and a bag of peanuts.  I'm getting pretty good at it myself.


Yet it's great parenting to take an infant with a debilitating lung condition maskless to literally the most crowded building in a city with one of the highest Covid-19 transmission rates in the U.S.? The only thing that is theater here is anti-vaxxer mommy using her high risk baby as a prop and endangering his health (to the extent the "asthma" isn't complete bs) to increase her Instagram following.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> who is this EOTL character?  Code word for low rent entertainment?


Unhinged, uber woke, leftist that was kicked off the forum a few months ago for posting brain cell killing tantrums.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Maybe I'm slow, but I wasn't convinced that GoldenGate was EOTL, but that level of fiction is a clearly tell-tale marker that GG is EOTL.  Welcome back.


Yes Wat Fly, you got slow bro.  Here's the deal.  Where is Husker & Espola when GG starts yapping?  I told you a long game ago that were all and the same.


----------



## GoldenGate

It is insane that people think putting a mask on a two year old is child abuse, but that taking a high risk child with a debilitating lung condition through the most crowded building in one of the highest risk cities in America during a pandemic is great parenting.  The day she traveled was one of TX's highest single day death and new case totals.


----------



## crush

Welcome back EOTL.  Go ahead and be yourself but no threats please


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> It is insane that people think putting a mask on a two year old is child abuse, but that taking a high risk child with a debilitating lung condition through the most crowded building in one of the highest risk cities in America during a pandemic is great parenting.  The day she traveled was one of TX's highest single day death and new case totals.


A sane person would think that both actions could be considered poor parenting.  But you know...soemthing to be said about sanity these days. Seems like a scarce commodity


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> who is this EOTL character?  Code word for low rent entertainment?


I wouldn't call it entertainment....unless you like..

-everyone is a trumpster which now has been replaced with anti vaxxer 
- replys to posts with comments that have nothing to do with a post
-anyone disagreeing with eotl is a moron, idiot or some other name 
-etc 

Basically just a troll.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Unhinged, uber woke, leftist that was kicked off the forum a few months ago for posting brain cell killing tantrums.


All of the above and I'd add misanthropic zealot.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Unhinged, uber woke, leftist that was kicked off the forum a few months ago for posting brain cell killing tantrums.


Sounds like fun, clean,logical conversation.  The pandemic has certainly caused trauma in many.  Interesting to some degree how it presents in some people.


----------



## Grace T.

Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated People Less Likely to Cause ‘Long COVID’
					

There’s no question that vaccines are making a tremendous difference in protecting individuals and whole communities against infection and severe illness from SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that cause…




					directorsblog.nih.gov


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err...I can think of a ton of reason outside of vacation.  When my kid was that age, I had to travel on a work trip (as a single parent could not leave the kid by himself), family funeral, moving to another place, split custody, caring for an aged grandmother, saying goodbye to a dying relative.  Lots of reasons.
> 
> We're one of the very few countries to mandate masks on 2 year olds, including those with special needs.  What's special about it is it's a 2 year old.


American Airlines already has a disability exemption process on their website:

"These rules do not apply to children under 2, or if you have a disability that prevents you from wearing a face covering and meet the exemption requirements."

If this really was a special case, there was a way to deal with it.  

But you have to follow the process.  You can't just show up and demand an exception. That puts flight attendants in the position of judging whether a particular passenger is or is not disabled.


----------



## Grace T.

Two key takeaways:

-US goofed into not spacing the 2 shots apart (wish I could remember who was pushing against the spacing? Who was it?)
-for those without comorbidities (even if elderly) there's very little waning in protection against severe disease.



			https://khub.net/documents/135939561/338928724/Vaccine+effectiveness+and+duration+of+protection+of+covid+vaccines+against+mild+and+severe+COVID-19+in+the+UK.pdf/10dcd99c-0441-0403-dfd8-11ba2c6f5801


----------



## espola




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> American Airlines already has a disability exemption process on their website:
> 
> "These rules do not apply to children under 2, or if you have a disability that prevents you from wearing a face covering and meet the exemption requirements."
> 
> If this really was a special case, there was a way to deal with it.
> 
> But you have to follow the process.  You can't just show up and demand an exception. That puts flight attendants in the position of judging whether a particular passenger is or is not disabled.


That's an argument again for not requiring it on the very young.  Conditions like autism (unless very severe and rendering the child nearly complete disfunction) and ADHD are often not diagnosed at age 2.  Reason why is because you need the child to be able to talk fairly fluently to diagnose.  ADHD is usually not diagnosed until grade 3-5 so the parent might not know until they get put into a stressful situation like on the plane.

As for asthma, again with a 2 year old you are just figuring out how it interacts with the environment.  The child isn't fully communicative and isn't able to describe how they are feeling.  If it's the child's first flight, maybe you don't know the airline vents (or a dog in the vicinity) is going to trigger it.

You've just laid out a reason for why children shouldn't be masked at all until age 5 when they get some ability to describe their body and its reaction to stimulus.  Or are you in favor of masking babies?  Because the justification for not masking babies is they might stop breathing and parents may not notice.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> That's an argument again for not requiring it on the very young.  Conditions like autism (unless very severe and rendering the child nearly complete disfunction) and ADHD are often not diagnosed at age 2.  Reason why is because you need the child to be able to talk fairly fluently to diagnose.  ADHD is usually not diagnosed until grade 3-5 so the parent might not know until they get put into a stressful situation like on the plane.
> 
> As for asthma, again with a 2 year old you are just figuring out how it interacts with the environment.  The child isn't fully communicative and isn't able to describe how they are feeling.  If it's the child's first flight, maybe you don't know the airline vents (or a dog in the vicinity) is going to trigger it.
> 
> You've just laid out a reason for why children shouldn't be masked at all until age 5 when they get some ability to describe their body and its reaction to stimulus.  Or are you in favor of masking babies?  Because the justification for not masking babies is they might stop breathing and parents may not notice.


p.s. the airlines (much like the supermarket) don't consider asthma a disability that requires a mask exception.  I know because I've had a relative try it.  We also know because people claim "asthma" to get exempt from supermarket bans, and as some fun videos on the internet have shown, it doesn't usually work.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 11663


Oh brother.  I already got an earful from my asshole pals like you for the big win.  Listen, you guys won again.  I'm leaving asap asshole!!


----------



## Roadrunner

watfly said:


> I'd recommend you read up on the case because it goes way beyond not doing their job.  Both Senator Blumenthal and Leahy (also attorneys) are strongly recommending prosecution of the FBI agents.


I read some of the statements from the gymnasts. It's just stomach turning. No one seemed interested in protecting the girls - multiple levels of failure, not just the FBI.  It's an indictment of our society, in my opinion.  I wish it was the exception, but sadly, I expect that this is just a situation that has gained the spotlight.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> p.s. the airlines (much like the supermarket) don't consider asthma a disability that requires a mask exception.  I know because I've had a relative try it.  We also know because people claim "asthma" to get exempt from supermarket bans, and as some fun videos on the internet have shown, it doesn't usually work.


Well, if the airlines don't consider asthma a sufficient disability to warrant an exemption, it is probably because asthma is not sufficient to warrant an exemption.

The other possibility is that there is a limited capacity for listening to mask complaints.  Flight attendants, like all people, only have so much patience.   They already have had to deal with a lot of shit from the first thousand belligerent anti-mask customers, and might not have much interest in listening to the thousand and first excuse for not being able to wear a mask properly.


----------



## N00B

Discussion will undoubtedly follow:



			Redirect Notice


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Well, if the airlines don't consider asthma a sufficient disability to warrant an exemption, it is probably because asthma is not sufficient to warrant an exemption.
> 
> The other possibility is that there is a limited capacity for listening to mask complaints.  Flight attendants, like all people, only have so much patience.   They already have had to deal with a lot of shit from the first thousand belligerent anti-mask customers, and might not have much interest in listening to the thousand and first excuse for not being able to wear a mask properly.


Gee, if only we had a limited capacity to irrationally enforce masking on children two and under. It appears there is no limit to that. We've got plenty of belligerent anti-children folks out there (and on here) as well.

Yes, I do feel for the flight attendants and anyone else tasked with the thankless job of telling people to wear masks. It's interesting. I've noticed masking has changed my thinking about flying versus driving. I was actually a little relieved when the airline tickets were ridiculously high to Vegas and I decided to drive 8.5 hours instead of flying and wearing a mask 3.5-4 hours until I got in my rental car. Pre-Covid, I'm pretty sure I'd have just sucked it up and bought the ticket. I need to make sure my playlists are updated.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Well, if the airlines don't consider asthma a sufficient disability to warrant an exemption, it is probably because asthma is not sufficient to warrant an exemption.
> 
> The other possibility is that there is a limited capacity for listening to mask complaints.  Flight attendants, like all people, only have so much patience.   They already have had to deal with a lot of shit from the first thousand belligerent anti-mask customers, and might not have much interest in listening to the thousand and first excuse for not being able to wear a mask properly.


Or maybe spare the flight attendants by not masking really small kids, particularly when some adults around them are using the masks only for take off and landing. Again the us is out of touch here in comparison to the rest of the world.

there isn’t as asthma exception btw for the simple reason that it would exempt over 10% of passengers


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Grace T. is glossing over the fact that this has all the hallmarks of an irresponsible anti-vaxxer parent who has been risking giving Covid to her infant with a debilitating lung issues from birth.  Apparently, anti-vaxxer mommy subjected her child with serious asthma to Covid at home every day from birth. When that failed to kill her baby, she took him on a plane trip through a crowded airport in an area that currently ranks among the highest transmission and death rates in the U.S. due to the overall anti-vaxxer sentiment. She did this knowing her little baby can't wear a mask. And to maximize the chances of killing her child, she ignored AA's processes for seeking an exemption which might have given her and AA the ability to figure out a solution to this problem.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to get and die of covid, it is this one.  If there was ever a child that was a high risk to spread covid to others, it is also this one. The real lessons to be learned here is that someone needs to call CPS, and that anti-vaxxers are easily manipulated into believing even the most bs narrative. This is the type of person that anti-vaxxers believe are heroes.  Soak it in.
> 
> I wonder why Grace T. believes private businesses like American Airlines should not be allowed to implement their own rules?  Is this a "strict construction" thing?  Did someone change the Commerce Clause without telling me and add something about how private companies can make their customers wear shirts, pants and shoes, just not masks?


More safety theater.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Gee, if only we had a limited capacity to irrationally enforce masking on children two and under. It appears there is no limit to that. We've got plenty of belligerent anti-children folks out there (and on here) as well.
> 
> Yes, I do feel for the flight attendants and anyone else tasked with the thankless job of telling people to wear masks. It's interesting. I've noticed masking has changed my thinking about flying versus driving. I was actually a little relieved when the airline tickets were ridiculously high to Vegas and I decided to drive 8.5 hours instead of flying and wearing a mask 3.5-4 hours until I got in my rental car. Pre-Covid, I'm pretty sure I'd have just sucked it up and bought the ticket. I need to make sure my playlists are updated.


I will never fly again until people change being scared.  The mask is back and now people are going around like this dude.









						Man with "I'm Vaccinated" Badge on Harrasses Unmasked Patriot in Store
					

His wife is a doctor who specializes in infectious disease.  Who are we to judge him?  .  Download the video: http://short.katflys.com/d/9QFR




					www.bitchute.com
				




It's getting real chippie again with mask/vax dude vs no mask and mine your business mama bears at stores.  How sad we have men acting like this. I know deep deep down what the truth is but no one can handle the real truth.  Carry on with this and that and i will focus on why I have to do to survive.   Maybe one of these days we can meet up on the road somewhere bro.  I love to drive btw   You're a good dad and did the right thing for you and your family.  I respect that and you respect me, and I respect that you respect that.  What I mean is, we can disagree to disagree on vax or no vax and still have respect from one man to another man.  Respect is the key word.  Thanks for respecting me man, I love you a lot and feel your kindness through the computer.  Espola and that GG dude, hell no!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Covid vaccine passports scrapped for winter by Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson will announce this week that he is scrapping plans that would have required vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs, cinemas and sports grounds.

On Tuesday, the prime minister will announce plans to try to keep Covid under control over the winter. He will say that he has abandoned the proposed compulsory certification scheme, which would have forced venues to check people’s vaccine status.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.
> 
> View attachment 11664


Good night Bruddah IZ.  These are times unlike any time in history.  I feel blessed to be alive as a time such as now.  Get ready for some amazing and crazy ass times.  What kind of popcorn you like?  I got me some tasty old fashion pop with extra butter bruddah


----------



## Bruddah IZ

How about a mandate for people to take care of themselves:

1. healthy BMI
2. healthy diet
3. daily exercise for at least 20 min. 

You would all be less anti-liberty, anti-immune system.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Many hospitals demand that employees with prior COVID disease get vaccinated, despite already having stronger longer lasting immunity. If hospitals cannot get the medical evidence right on this one, how can we trust them with other aspects of our health?
Kulldorff Quote Tweet

In Israel, vaccinated individuals had 27 times higher risk of symptomatic COVID infection compared to those with natural immunity from prior COVID disease [95%CI:13-57, adjusted for time of vaccine/disease]. *No COVID deaths in either group.* https://medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Or maybe spare the flight attendants by not masking really small kids, particularly when some adults around them are using the masks only for take off and landing. Again the us is out of touch here in comparison to the rest of the world.
> 
> there isn’t as asthma exception btw for the simple reason that it would exempt over 10% of passengers


Why do you take it for granted that adults get to ignore the mask rules?

You start by assuming that we all do our best to make the rules unworkable, and then complain that the rules don't work.


----------



## younothat

Bruddah IZ said:


> How about a mandate for people to take care of themselves:
> 
> 1. healthy BMI
> 2. healthy diet
> 3. daily exercise for at least 20 min.
> 
> You would all be less anti-liberty, anti-immune system.


Done for me but 1-3 not happen in the USA.

Getting more people out of cars; walking, running, biking, investing in outdoor infrastructure, alt forms of transport; biking, PEV would be a good thing.

In Holland bigger cities you see up to 75% of people using bikes instead of cars to get around.  USA is such a car culture I dunno if we will really ever invest enough in alt forms of transportation or infrastructure, paths, lanes, incentives, etc.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Bruddah IZ said:


> How about a mandate for people to take care of themselves:
> 
> 1. healthy BMI
> 2. healthy diet
> 3. daily exercise for at least 20 min.
> 
> You would all be less anti-liberty, anti-immune system.


Based on the statistics, #1 alone would reduce Covid related severe cases and deaths dramatically!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> I will never fly again until people change being scared.  The mask is back and now people are going around like this dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man with "I'm Vaccinated" Badge on Harrasses Unmasked Patriot in Store
> 
> 
> His wife is a doctor who specializes in infectious disease.  Who are we to judge him?  .  Download the video: http://short.katflys.com/d/9QFR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's getting real chippie again with mask/vax dude vs no mask and mine your business mama bears at stores.  How sad we have men acting like this. I know deep deep down what the truth is but no one can handle the real truth.  Carry on with this and that and i will focus on why I have to do to survive.   Maybe one of these days we can meet up on the road somewhere bro.  I love to drive btw   You're a good dad and did the right thing for you and your family.  I respect that and you respect me, and I respect that you respect that.  What I mean is, we can disagree to disagree on vax or no vax and still have respect from one man to another man.  Respect is the key word.  Thanks for respecting me man, I love you a lot and feel your kindness through the computer.  Espola and that GG dude, hell no!!!


Respect is in short supply @crush. The MO for many has become, dehumanize those that disagree and use whatever power is available to "correct" their behavior.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why do you take it for granted that adults get to ignore the mask rules?
> 
> You start by assuming that we all do our best to make the rules unworkable, and then complain that the rules don't work.


Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on airplanes. If you allow food and drink some adults cheat and just wear it for take off and landing. It’s the same as masks in restaurants at bars restaurants and theaters. It’s security theater. Tormenting the 2 year old is doing nothing if you aren’t enforcing it against the adults…particularly as the Mom here is trying to comply while the adult is actively cheating

security theater with collateral damage is worse than actually sticking to your principles and enforcing rules that make sense (but hey then you are back to no indoor dining). Or you know you could get in line with the rest of the world and at least exempt kids five and under (a 2 year old having about as much control as a moderately autistic 12 year old)


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on airplanes. If you allow food and drink some adults cheat and just wear it for take off and landing. It’s the same as masks in restaurants at bars restaurants and theaters. It’s security theater. Tormenting the 2 year old is doing nothing if you aren’t enforcing it against the adults…particularly as the Mom here is trying to comply while the adult is actively cheating
> 
> security theater with collateral damage is worse than actually sticking to your principles and enforcing rules that make sense (but hey then you are back to no indoor dining). Or you know you could get in line with the rest of the world and at least exempt kids five and under (a 2 year old having about as much control as a moderately autistic 12 year old)


The sad truth to all of this is if everyone just got vaccinated the mask stuff wouldn't be nearly as important.  Even skipping those under 12.  The numbers across the US in hospitals would plummet and security theatre wouldn't really be a reaction.  Unfortunately that's not the place we're in.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> *The sad truth to all of this is if everyone just got vaccinated the mask stuff wouldn't be nearly as important.*


BS!!!  The truth will come out soon and oh boy, you sir are in for a big suprise.  What you think truth is will not be the truth.  Listen to the wrong folks this time.  The sad truth is people like you fell for it.  If everyone would just take the bat shot all this would be over.  Go back to riding your bike bro and say hi to Golden Gate for me.  Love you but you r wrong again.......


----------



## crush

Espola, I see all your avatars on the board and out in force.  Come on here and debate me like a man you loser......lol.  Stop hiding behind different avatars you cheater....lol!  What POD you have become.  Grace T schools you all day & night and now has to take a break from all your bs with dad.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on airplanes. If you allow food and drink some adults cheat and just wear it for take off and landing. It’s the same as masks in restaurants at bars restaurants and theaters. It’s security theater. Tormenting the 2 year old is doing nothing if you aren’t enforcing it against the adults…particularly as the Mom here is trying to comply while the adult is actively cheating
> 
> security theater with collateral damage is worse than actually sticking to your principles and enforcing rules that make sense (but hey then you are back to no indoor dining). Or you know you could get in line with the rest of the world and at least exempt kids five and under (a 2 year old having about as much control as a moderately autistic 12 year old)


Using terms such as "security theater" really tells us a lot about you.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Using terms such as "security theater" really tells us a lot about you.


Putting the words security theater in quotes really tells us a lot about you.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> The sad truth to all of this is if everyone just got vaccinated the mask stuff wouldn't be nearly as important.  Even skipping those under 12.  The numbers across the US in hospitals would plummet and security theatre wouldn't really be a reaction.  Unfortunately that's not the place we're in.


Some people may not need to get vaccinated (particularly if they have a confirmed PCr test and a relatively high antibody count). We are really arguing about the roughly 15% of the population that haven’t been exposed

plus we know the vaccine is not full proof to stop symptoms or transmission 100%. It may be as low as 40% for some vaccines.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> I read some of the statements from the gymnasts. It's just stomach turning. No one seemed interested in protecting the girls - multiple levels of failure, not just the FBI.  It's an indictment of our society, in my opinion.  I wish it was the exception, but sadly, I expect that this is just a situation that has gained the spotlight.


100% and its just not multiple levels of failures, its also multiple storylines of societal ills and government corruption.  The most disturbing to me is society's current emphasis on putting the interests of adults ahead of the interests of children.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Some people may not need to get vaccinated (particularly if they have a confirmed PCr test and a relatively high antibody count). We are really arguing about the roughly 15% of the population that haven’t been exposed
> 
> plus we know the vaccine is not full proof to stop symptoms or transmission 100%. It may be as low as 40% for some vaccines.


I don't think we can look at blanket number for the US.  My county is highly vaccinated.  Our hospitals are fine.  Cases are still happening but it's not a big deal and nobody is dying -- at least not like it was pre-vaccine.  I'm not convinced all the other states have plateaued just yet.  Getting those hotspots vaccinated would be huge and would avoid a lot collateral damage.  It's unfortunate the anti-vaxer movement even came about, at least at the scale we've seen.  I don't think we'd even be having this conversation right now had people just done the right thing.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why do you take it for granted that adults get to ignore the mask rules?
> 
> You start by assuming that we all do our best to make the rules unworkable, and then complain that the rules don't work.


The rules are unworkable because they deny peoples rights to due process and thus Liberty and justice which you people take for granted.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

younothat said:


> Done for me but 1-3 not happen in the USA.
> 
> Getting more people out of cars; walking, running, biking, investing in outdoor infrastructure, alt forms of transport; biking, PEV would be a good thing.
> 
> In Holland bigger cities you see up to 75% of people using bikes instead of cars to get around.  USA is such a car culture I dunno if we will really ever invest enough in alt forms of transportation or infrastructure, paths, lanes, incentives, etc.


Folks who moved to the suburbs from the City of New York gain 15 lbs. on average because the primary mode of travel in New York is walking.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> 100% and its just not multiple levels of failures, its also multiple storylines of societal ills and government corruption.  The most disturbing to me is society's current emphasis on putting the interests of adults ahead of the interests of children.


Custom Millstones are being made at Camp Justice down at the Bay.  New court house was built as well Wat Fly.  I keep telling you WTF this is all really about.  Do you see now homie?  This is and always has been about the kids and Human Trafficking.  My bet is people like you, NoCaldad and others will finally see and change on the spot.  The others who have their head in the sand will probably act like it's nothing.  t #1 message win he beat HRC was to take down and destroy the Human Trafficking business with the full force of the Military.  Watch the videos I sent you and to all the others on here.  This is not about election or the pandemic, it's always been about saving the children.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on airplanes. If you allow food and drink some adults cheat and just wear it for take off and landing. It’s the same as masks in restaurants at bars restaurants and theaters. It’s security theater. Tormenting the 2 year old is doing nothing if you aren’t enforcing it against the adults…particularly as the Mom here is trying to comply while the adult is actively cheating
> 
> security theater with collateral damage is worse than actually sticking to your principles and enforcing rules that make sense (but hey then you are back to no indoor dining). Or you know you could get in line with the rest of the world and at least exempt kids five and under (a 2 year old having about as much control as a moderately autistic 12 year old)


Dad is a one size fits all policy guy.  Venezuela is the place for him.  Maduro would roll out the blood red carpet for him.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Putting the words security theater in quotes really tells us a lot about you.


I was quoting you, in proper grammatical style.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Some people may not need to get vaccinated (particularly if they have a confirmed PCr test and a relatively high antibody count). We are really arguing about the roughly 15% of the population that haven’t been exposed
> 
> plus we know the vaccine is not full proof to stop symptoms or transmission 100%. It may be as low as 40% for some vaccines.


"...we know..."?

(please note those tricky quotation marks again(


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think we can look at blanket number for the US.  My county is highly vaccinated.  Our hospitals are fine.  Cases are still happening but it's not a big deal and nobody is dying -- at least not like it was pre-vaccine.  I'm not convinced all the other states have plateaued just yet.  Getting those hotspots vaccinated would be huge and would avoid a lot collateral damage.  It's unfortunate the anti-vaxer movement even came about, at least at the scale we've seen.  I don't think we'd even be having this conversation right now had people just done the right thing.


It's unfortunate the anti-immune system movement even came about.  The anti-vax movement has been around for at least 30 years and scaled up during this pandemic because of the anti-immune system crowd.  I don't think we'd even be having this conversation right now had government treated the common cold Corona virus like it does all the others.


----------



## crush

Look what this ass just said.  I now see that the obese and super unhealthy man with a mask was shamming my beautiful wife yesterday and telling her to sit somewhere else.  This morning, I went to the Union Grocery store and I was told to please wear mask.  I was shocked.  The mask is back and just wait for what they release next folks.  This will never end until Robert the Bruce wakes his ass up and picks right this time.  The easy road is the wrong road.  If it's hard and tough but worth the fight, then it's right 

*CNN's Don Lemon calls on Americans to shun 'stupid' unvaccinated people: 'Leave them behind'*
*'It's time to start shaming them'*

"I think we have to stop coddling people when it comes to … the vaccines, saying ‘Oh you can’t shame them. You can’t call them stupid.' Yes, they are. The people who aided and abetted Trump are stupid because they believed his big lie," Lemon said, making an unclear comparison between former President Donald Trump and ongoing vaccine hesitancy within some communities. "The people who are not getting vaccines who are believing the lies on the internet instead of science, it's time to start shaming them or leave them behind."

"People talk about, well I don’t know what’s in the shot. I don’t know what’s in that shot … Do you know what they get shots in nowadays? In their rear ends. They’re getting shots to make it bigger. They’re getting shots in their face. They don’t know what's in Botox. They don’t know what's in this stuff," he said.

Lemon seemed to admit that he also received at least one previous Botox injection before saying that there was nothing wrong with taking one.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think we can look at blanket number for the US.  My county is highly vaccinated.  Our hospitals are fine.  Cases are still happening but it's not a big deal and nobody is dying -- at least not like it was pre-vaccine.  I'm not convinced all the other states have plateaued just yet.  Getting those hotspots vaccinated would be huge and would avoid a lot collateral damage.  It's unfortunate the anti-vaxer movement even came about, at least at the scale we've seen.  I don't think we'd even be having this conversation right now had people just done the right thing.


Well, it's not just about people doing the right thing.  The experts have failed us too: the J&J pause, the reluctance to be frank about the myocarditis risk in mRNA vaccines, the failure to acknowledge or study in depth natural immunity, the waffling on pregnant women, the failure to take seriously the complaints re women's cycles, the mixed messaging about whether vaccines work, the failure to reach out and empathize with minority communities, the prior lies with make people skeptical of the authorities ("masks are better than vaccines", the flip flop on masks, 2 weeks to slow the spread), the fact that Pfizer is the only option available for the under 18, the politicking on boosters and now Biden's EO which will just cause the die hards to dig in their heels and conservatives concerned with the Constitution to sympathize with them.  Frankly, given the US skepticism towards authority, and the track record of the experts, I'm frankly surprised to see it as high as it is.

I agree with the approach not looking at a blanket number for the US.  I think we also can't look at it at a blanket by age group (and some of those 40-65 which are still somewhat vulnerable have not vaxxed).  I think looking at the rates for 20s and unders isn't as useful (at least not with current variants).  I think this also leads to the conclusion that places like San Francisco (with high compliance) or Los Angeles and NYC (with a combination of compliance and natural immunity) are also the most over the top with their regulations where they do the least good.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Well, it's not just about people doing the right thing.  The experts have failed us too: the J&J pause, the reluctance to be frank about the myocarditis risk in mRNA vaccines, the failure to acknowledge or study in depth natural immunity, the waffling on pregnant women, the failure to take seriously the complaints re women's cycles, the mixed messaging about whether vaccines work, the failure to reach out and empathize with minority communities, the prior lies with make people skeptical of the authorities ("masks are better than vaccines", the flip flop on masks, 2 weeks to slow the spread), the fact that Pfizer is the only option available for the under 18, the politicking on boosters and now Biden's EO which will just cause the die hards to dig in their heels and conservatives concerned with the Constitution to sympathize with them.  Frankly, given the US skepticism towards authority, and the track record of the experts, I'm frankly surprised to see it as high as it is.
> 
> I agree with the approach not looking at a blanket number for the US.  I think we also can't look at it at a blanket by age group (and some of those 40-65 which are still somewhat vulnerable have not vaxxed).  I think looking at the rates for 20s and unders isn't as useful (at least not with current variants).  I think this also leads to the conclusion that places like San Francisco (with high compliance) or Los Angeles and NYC (with a combination of compliance and natural immunity) are also the most over the top with their regulations where they do the least good.


It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.


----------



## crush

Two days of pay if you get the Jabber doo at SW Air.  What a nice place to work and so willing to pay for people to get injected.  Let's not forget, kids fly free and now you get two days off of free pay if you're a team player and roll the sleeve up by Nov 15th.  I can;t believe I'm writing this out and it's a true story.  Yikes!!!  

Airline Boss:  Yo Smelly, you want some extra $$$ to take that little trip with your wife you always dreamed bout?  

Smelly:  Did I get the raise boss man?

Boss:  Hell no.  

Smelly:  Did the fellas get me a cash present for my bday that is coming up next month

Boss:  No way.  Take jab and get paid for two days.  

Think everyone. Slow down and think if this makes any sense?  This take pay to take jab is getting weirder by the day.  I wake up wondering what shoe will drop at Camp Justice.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Well, it's not just about people doing the right thing.  The experts have failed us too: the J&J pause, the reluctance to be frank about the myocarditis risk in mRNA vaccines, the failure to acknowledge or study in depth natural immunity, the waffling on pregnant women, the failure to take seriously the complaints re women's cycles, the mixed messaging about whether vaccines work, the failure to reach out and empathize with minority communities, the prior lies with make people skeptical of the authorities ("masks are better than vaccines", the flip flop on masks, 2 weeks to slow the spread), the fact that Pfizer is the only option available for the under 18, the politicking on boosters and now Biden's EO which will just cause the die hards to dig in their heels and conservatives concerned with the Constitution to sympathize with them.  Frankly, given the US skepticism towards authority, and the track record of the experts, I'm frankly surprised to see it as high as it is.
> 
> I agree with the approach not looking at a blanket number for the US.  I think we also can't look at it at a blanket by age group (and some of those 40-65 which are still somewhat vulnerable have not vaxxed).  I think looking at the rates for 20s and unders isn't as useful (at least not with current variants).  I think this also leads to the conclusion that places like San Francisco (with high compliance) or Los Angeles and NYC (with a combination of compliance and natural immunity) are also the most over the top with their regulations where they do the least good.


Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated.  Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals).  But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault.  I know as humans we need someone to blame.  We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4.  Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks.  Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "...we know..."?
> 
> (please note those tricky quotation marks again(


You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly?  You always make me laugh, unlike good old EOTL.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on airplanes. If you allow food and drink some adults cheat and just wear it for take off and landing. It’s the same as masks in restaurants at bars restaurants and theaters. It’s security theater. Tormenting the 2 year old is doing nothing if you aren’t enforcing it against the adults…particularly as the Mom here is trying to comply while the adult is actively cheating
> 
> security theater with collateral damage is worse than actually sticking to your principles and enforcing rules that make sense (but hey then you are back to no indoor dining). Or you know you could get in line with the rest of the world and at least exempt kids five and under (a 2 year old having about as much control as a moderately autistic 12 year old)


I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules.  Clearly, they do.

I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people.  We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated.  Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals).  But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault.  I know as humans we need someone to blame.  We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4.  Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks.  Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.


It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly?  You always make me laugh, unlike good old EOTL.


Another strawman.  

No surprise, either -- it seems that you think that that is an effective tactic.  It doesn't work with intelligent people or those who are onto your game.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules.  Clearly, they do.
> 
> I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people.  We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.


In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault.  They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining).  You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes.  You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars.  You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.


First, what's the problem you are trying to solve.

Second, no they aren't.  The issue is the vaccines despite the initial hope are not 100% effective against symptoms/transmissions....maybe not enough in the high %s....even folks like dad4 wanted it over by July 4 and now they are looking for people to blame.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault.  They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining).  You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes.  You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars.  You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.


You make an unsupported claim and then use that as evidence in later arguments.  

Just trying to be helpful here -- maybe you don't know you are doing it.


----------



## crush

Golden Gate, please come out to debate me.  Espola and Dad are back up to their old tricks again.  Blame it on the rain or me is find and dandy.  God knows the truth and so does the NSA and Space Force.  They have it all, nowhere to run and nowhere to hide losers.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> First, what's the problem you are trying to solve.
> 
> Second, no they aren't.  The issue is the vaccines despite the initial hope are not 100% effective against symptoms/transmissions....maybe not enough in the high %s....even folks like dad4 wanted it over by July 4 and now they are looking for people to blame.


The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.

Do you know anyone like that?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules.  Clearly, they do.
> 
> I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people.  We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.
> 
> Do you know anyone like that?


Strawman


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another strawman.
> 
> No surprise, either -- it seems that you think that that is an effective tactic.  It doesn't work with intelligent people or those who are onto your game.


a. the fact that you put yourself in the "intelligent people" category made me snort. Like how I used the quotes?
b. you still don't know what a strawman is.  It's what you questioned directly.
c. you yourself just ducked the issue.
d. again, you pulled another Magoo.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated.  Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals).  But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault.  I know as humans we need someone to blame.  We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4.  Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks.  Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.


Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1.  If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.

People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem.  If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free.  Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You make an unsupported claim and then use that as evidence in later arguments.
> 
> Just trying to be helpful here -- maybe you don't know you are doing it.


What's the unsupported claim?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.


Straw woman


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1.  If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.
> 
> People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem.  If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free.  Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.


Same question to you as espola: what's the current problem?

The Delta Wave?

Cases are not a problem.  They are merely a number.  If we had a Delta wave purely in the under 12 set would it still be a problem?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1.  If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.
> 
> People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem.  If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free.  Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.


Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault.  They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining).  You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes.  You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars.  You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.


If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.

What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility?  “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


I was so optimistic about the vaccine rollout and poof, it was gone. Also, if Fauci would have pushed for a longer wait between the first and second shots, there would have been more availability for first shots earlier - before the mistake of the J&J Pause.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.


Scapegoating.

Again, you haven't defined even what exactly the problem is you are trying to solve.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.
> 
> What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility?  “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”


What about ignoring personal liberty and rights to due process that you are advocating.  Australia is great this time of year.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.
> 
> What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility?  “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”


So is it my responsibility to gobble up my food as quick as possible?
Do I need to be putting my mask up and down between sips?
What if I'm drunk and I get on the plane and fall asleep?
What if I accidentally fall asleep?
What I just take my time eating my meal?
What if everyone on that flight takes their time eating the meal....that have more effect than the handful of 5 year olds without their masks with the big gaping holes on the side?

Again, we've had this argument before.  Personal responsibility is all fine and good, but you can't set policy assuming everyone is going to be angels.  You have to assume there will be aholes in there.

I told you the story before about the LARP my son and I played at Disneyland and how people reacted to every rule revision by finding creative solutions.  People are clever and given a chance to bend (not break) the rule they will take it.  But as we've discussed before, while I'm doing policy, you are doing religion


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Same question to you as espola: *what's the current problem?*
> 
> The Delta Wave?
> 
> Cases are not a problem.  They are merely a number.  If we had a Delta wave purely in the under 12 set would it still be a problem?


Cases are useful not for themselves, but as a leading indicator of hospitalizations and deaths.  It’s the hospitalizations and deaths that are the problem.

The three are not decoupled.  The ratio has just changed over the long term.  But a short term doubling of cases still means you can expect more hospitalizations and deaths, too.


----------



## Kicker4Life

NorCalDad said:


> The sad truth to all of this is if everyone just got vaccinated the mask stuff wouldn't be nearly as important.  Even skipping those under 12.  The numbers across the US in hospitals would plummet and security theatre wouldn't really be a reaction.  Unfortunately that's not the place we're in.


Not anti-vax, but to be fair, statistically speaking, reducing your BMI and exercising 20/day would have roughly the same impact as the vaccine on “severity of cases” and ICU occupancy.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Using terms such as "security theater" really tells us a lot about you.


In reality, mommy was engaging in political theater, and that is all that happened.  We know actual facts about what happened, but that gets in the way of anti-maskers and their lies.  The actual facts are: (1) the mother admits she had never had her two year old wear a mask before, but decided that the best time to try it out for her allegedly asthmatic two year old would be on an AA flight surrounded by her friends with video cameras; (2) there is an AA policy for addressing issues like this in advance that would have avoided this completely, which mommy admits that she failed to comply with it although she was the only person who knew her kid (allegedly) has asthma and might not be able to wear a mask; (3) mommy took a two year old with an alleged serious respiratory issue maskless into the most crowded building in one of the highest risk counties in the entire U.S.; (4) we know this situation was completely the mommy's fault and could have been avoided because AA immediately rebooked her on another flight and, miracle of miracles, they were able to make it there without incident with kiddy wearing an incident at no cost to mommy. Mommy fails to mention in her monetized social media rant that AA rebooked her on the next flight and, during she and her child were "miraculously" able to comply with AA's rules.

"Strangely", although surrounded by friends and family on the flight, and although they clearly tried very hard to videotape an incident, they showed exactly zero footage of anyone at AA acting inappropriately.  They showed exactly zero footage of the "incident" that led to them being deplaned which, as AA explained, really involved mommy and her child not seatbelted and her mother irresponsibly letting the baby lay in the aisle and move around the cabin while taxiing for takeoff and did not involve her indicating in any way that her child was asthmatic or even having trouble breathing. The footage they do show is of a two year old crying (shocking!) but still not wearing his seat belt.

Labeling this "security theater" is what anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers like Grace T. do. The lengths to which she and her friends had to go to reframe terrible parenting like this is impressive.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

To: The Novel ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM MOVEMENT 
From: Your MANDATED IMMUNE SYSTEM

… is from George Will’s latest column, titled by the _Washington Post_ “Presidential impatience with covid doesn’t excuse wielding extra-constitutional power“; this passage from Will is prompted in part by a remark made recently on CNN by the authoritarian, and appallingly uninformed, Leana Wen:
_The word “travel” is not in the Constitution. Neither is the word “bacon,” but we have a right to have bacon for breakfast, and to raise our children. This puzzles people who think rights are privileges — spaces of autonomy — granted by, and revocable by, government. Such thinking paves the road to what some seem to want: a permission society, where what is not explicitly permitted is implicitly forbidden, or at least contingent on the grace of government._


----------



## espola

This doesn't change my opinionof chiropractors one bit --









						A Florida chiropractor signed hundreds of mask exemption forms for students. Now, the district has tightened its mask policy
					

A school district in Sarasota County, Florida, has tightened its mask policy after a chiropractor signed hundreds of medical exemption forms that allowed students to opt out of wearing masks in schools, officials said.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So is it my responsibility to gobble up my food as quick as possible?
> Do I need to be putting my mask up and down between sips?
> What if I'm drunk and I get on the plane and fall asleep?
> What if I accidentally fall asleep?
> What I just take my time eating my meal?
> What if everyone on that flight takes their time eating the meal....that have more effect than the handful of 5 year olds without their masks with the big gaping holes on the side?
> 
> Again, we've had this argument before.  Personal responsibility is all fine and good, but you can't set policy assuming everyone is going to be angels.  You have to assume there will be aholes in there.
> 
> I told you the story before about the LARP my son and I played at Disneyland and how people reacted to every rule revision by finding creative solutions.  People are clever and given a chance to bend (not break) the rule they will take it.


You are the one who said you did a great job avoiding indoor spaces with other people.  Now you’re saying you go on plane trips during covid.

Which is it?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> In reality, mommy was engaging in political theater, and that is all that happened.  We know actual facts about what happened, but that gets in the way of anti-maskers and their lies.  The actual facts are: (1) the mother admits she had never had her two year old wear a mask before, but decided that the best time to try it out for her allegedly asthmatic two year old would be on an AA flight surrounded by her friends with video cameras; (2) there is an AA policy for addressing issues like this in advance that would have avoided this completely, which mommy admits that she failed to comply with it although she was the only person who knew her kid (allegedly) has asthma and might not be able to wear a mask; (3) mommy took a two year old with an alleged serious respiratory issue maskless into the most crowded building in one of the highest risk counties in the entire U.S.; (4) we know this situation was completely the mommy's fault and could have been avoided because AA immediately rebooked her on another flight and, miracle of miracles, they were able to make it there without incident with kiddy wearing an incident at no cost to mommy. Mommy fails to mention in her monetized social media rant that AA rebooked her on the next flight and, during she and her child were "miraculously" able to comply with AA's rules.
> 
> "Strangely", although surrounded by friends and family on the flight, and although they clearly tried very hard to videotape an incident, they showed exactly zero footage of anyone at AA acting inappropriately.  They showed exactly zero footage of the "incident" that led to them being deplaned which, as AA explained, really involved mommy and her child not seatbelted and her mother irresponsibly letting the baby lay in the aisle and move around the cabin while taxiing for takeoff and did not involve her indicating in any way that her child was asthmatic or even having trouble breathing. The footage they do show is of a two year old crying (shocking!) but still not wearing his seat belt.
> 
> Labeling this "security theater" is what anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers like Grace T. do. The lengths to which she and her friends had to go to reframe terrible parenting like this is impressive.


From the Tower of Babble


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Cases are useful not for themselves, but as a leading indicator of hospitalizations and deaths.  It’s the hospitalizations and deaths that are the problem.
> 
> The three are not decoupled.  The ratio has just changed over the long term.  But a short term doubling of cases still means you can expect more hospitalizations and deaths, too.



Ah...well then we come to the heart of the matter because I frankly don't see cases as much of a problem.  The ratios aren't fixed because it depends on the vaccination rates in the community and the age of the community.  Again, a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s is not nearly as much of a problem as an outbreak in an unvaxxed nursing home.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> The truth will come out soon


It might not be today
"But that's no matter
Tomorrow we will run faster
Stretch our arms out further
And one fine morning.."


----------



## Kicker4Life

Bruddah IZ said:


> From the Tower of Babble


More like, from under the Babble Bridge!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> This doesn't change my opinionof chiropractors one bit --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Florida chiropractor signed hundreds of mask exemption forms for students. Now, the district has tightened its mask policy
> 
> 
> A school district in Sarasota County, Florida, has tightened its mask policy after a chiropractor signed hundreds of medical exemption forms that allowed students to opt out of wearing masks in schools, officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Strawman


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Well, it's not just about people doing the right thing.  The experts have failed us too: the J&J pause, the reluctance to be frank about the myocarditis risk in mRNA vaccines, the failure to acknowledge or study in depth natural immunity, the waffling on pregnant women, the failure to take seriously the complaints re women's cycles, the mixed messaging about whether vaccines work, the failure to reach out and empathize with minority communities, the prior lies with make people skeptical of the authorities ("masks are better than vaccines", the flip flop on masks, 2 weeks to slow the spread), the fact that Pfizer is the only option available for the under 18, the politicking on boosters and now Biden's EO which will just cause the die hards to dig in their heels and conservatives concerned with the Constitution to sympathize with them.  Frankly, given the US skepticism towards authority, and the track record of the experts, I'm frankly surprised to see it as high as it is.
> 
> I agree with the approach not looking at a blanket number for the US.  I think we also can't look at it at a blanket by age group (and some of those 40-65 which are still somewhat vulnerable have not vaxxed).  I think looking at the rates for 20s and unders isn't as useful (at least not with current variants).  I think this also leads to the conclusion that places like San Francisco (with high compliance) or Los Angeles and NYC (with a combination of compliance and natural immunity) are also the most over the top with their regulations where they do the least good.


I mean I sort of hear you, but explain why certain areas are more vax'd than others.  Why is my county so highly vax'd?  What's the difference?  I have my suspicions, but I'd love to get your take.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are the one who said you did a great job avoiding indoor spaces with other people.  Now you’re saying you go on plane trips during covid.
> 
> Which is it?


Pre vaccine I was very careful (despite having had it since 1 kid didn't and my antibody count was low, so I might transmit still).  Post vaccine, I don't care.  Because: Science TM!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. the fact that you put yourself in the "intelligent people" category made me snort. Like how I used the quotes?
> b. you still don't know what a strawman is.  It's what you questioned directly.
> c. you yourself just ducked the issue.
> d. again, you pulled another Magoo.


The strawman is your "You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly"  I never said that, but I can see how it is necessary to your argument.

I'm trying to be of help, but we don't seem to be m making much progress.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I mean I sort of hear you, but explain why certain areas are more vax'd than others.  Why is my county so highly vax'd?  What's the difference?  I have my suspicions, but I'd love to get your take.


Won't going into that get us into trouble?  I mean it's easy to throw the white yokel in North Dakota under the bus.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Delta is Dying*


An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

*Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated.  Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals).  But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault.  I know as humans we need someone to blame.  We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4.  Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks.  Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.


I don't actually blame the individuals.  I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.  I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt.  You know who these people are.  You're smart.  I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1.  If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.
> 
> People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem.  If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free.  Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.


...and many places will give you a free mask as well.


----------



## doubled

Collection of data with links to studies regarding masks.  Enjoy.

https://www.justfacts.com/news_face_masks_deadly_falsehoods


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker4Life said:


> Not anti-vax, but to be fair, statistically speaking, reducing your BMI and exercising 20/day would have roughly the same impact as the vaccine on “severity of cases” and ICU occupancy.


Sure, but what are you going to say...."Ok everyone, lose weight, fast"


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I don't actually blame the individuals.  I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.  I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt.  You know who these people are.  You're smart.  I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.


I think we can agree the grifters are a problem.  I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Scapegoating.
> 
> Again, you haven't defined even what exactly the problem is you are trying to solve.


We are now adding "scapegoating" to the list of words you use in variance to their commonly-agreed meanings.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ah...well then we come to the heart of the matter because I frankly don't see cases as much of a problem.  The ratios aren't fixed because it depends on the vaccination rates in the community and the age of the community.  Again, a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s is not nearly as much of a problem as an outbreak in an unvaxxed nursing home.


Highly vaccinated areas aren’t seeing all that many cases.  There is no such things as “a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s.”.   

The places with the high case rates are the same as the paces with the low vax rates.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The strawman is your "You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly"  I never said that, but I can see how it is necessary to your argument.
> 
> I'm trying to be of help, but we don't seem to be m making much progress.


It was phrased as a question which you ducked.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I think we can agree the grifters are a problem.  I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.


But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area.  Why the difference?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> So is it my responsibility to gobble up my food as quick as possible?
> Do I need to be putting my mask up and down between sips?
> What if I'm drunk and I get on the plane and fall asleep?
> What if I accidentally fall asleep?
> What I just take my time eating my meal?
> What if everyone on that flight takes their time eating the meal....that have more effect than the handful of 5 year olds without their masks with the big gaping holes on the side?
> 
> Again, we've had this argument before.  Personal responsibility is all fine and good, but you can't set policy assuming everyone is going to be angels.  You have to assume there will be aholes in there.
> 
> I told you the story before about the LARP my son and I played at Disneyland and how people reacted to every rule revision by finding creative solutions.  People are clever and given a chance to bend (not break) the rule they will take it.  But as we've discussed before, while I'm doing policy, you are doing religion


What if you actually stuck to watch you originally claimed, that people only wear their masks on takeoff and landing?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> We are now adding "scapegoating" to the list of words you use in variance to their commonly-agreed meanings.


Funny coming from the strawman guy


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I think we can agree the grifters are a problem.  I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.


That's what the grifters say.


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area.  Why the difference?


1- SES.  2- Indian and Chinese immigrants.  3- lack of Fox News viewers.  4- lots of engineers, and engineers tend to believe scientists.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Funny coming from the strawman guy


I can't help but point out that again, as usual, you are using an unproven assertion to further later arguments.

Do you think no one is going to notice?  Do you yourself know that you are doing it?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's what the grifters say.


As you know Magoo, it's possible for the grifters to be right about something and wrong about another.  But in your world it's always noon.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area.  Why the difference?


There are a lot of variables but socioeconomics is one.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> In reality, mommy was engaging in political theater, and that is all that happened.  We know actual facts about what happened, but that gets in the way of anti-maskers and their lies.  The actual facts are: (1) the mother admits she had never had her two year old wear a mask before, but decided that the best time to try it out for her allegedly asthmatic two year old would be on an AA flight surrounded by her friends with video cameras; (2) there is an AA policy for addressing issues like this in advance that would have avoided this completely, which mommy admits that she failed to comply with it although she was the only person who knew her kid (allegedly) has asthma and might not be able to wear a mask; (3) mommy took a two year old with an alleged serious respiratory issue maskless into the most crowded building in one of the highest risk counties in the entire U.S.; (4) we know this situation was completely the mommy's fault and could have been avoided because AA immediately rebooked her on another flight and, miracle of miracles, they were able to make it there without incident with kiddy wearing an incident at no cost to mommy. Mommy fails to mention in her monetized social media rant that AA rebooked her on the next flight and, during she and her child were "miraculously" able to comply with AA's rules.
> 
> "Strangely", although surrounded by friends and family on the flight, and although they clearly tried very hard to videotape an incident, they showed exactly zero footage of anyone at AA acting inappropriately.  They showed exactly zero footage of the "incident" that led to them being deplaned which, as AA explained, really involved mommy and her child not seatbelted and her mother irresponsibly letting the baby lay in the aisle and move around the cabin while taxiing for takeoff and did not involve her indicating in any way that her child was asthmatic or even having trouble breathing. The footage they do show is of a two year old crying (shocking!) but still not wearing his seat belt.
> 
> Labeling this "security theater" is what anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers like Grace T. do. The lengths to which she and her friends had to go to reframe terrible parenting like this is impressive.


If Grace has actually put you on ignore, it's a shame that she is missing this.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I can't help but point out that again, as usual, you are using an unproven assertion to further later arguments.
> 
> Do you think no one is going to notice?  Do you yourself know that you are doing it?


You know I used to do Oxford debate back in high school too. The thing I realized about Oxford is you go down a rabbit hole of rules and procedures that you begin not to make any sense.  It's why I switched to parliamentary.  I thought the entire Oxford thing was just a spectacle, with a bunch of people trying to rattle off things and make points.  It actually makes you a very poor debater out there in the real world.

But I still think it's funny you think we are actually "debating" (see the quotes there again).  Another snort for you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You know I used to do Oxford debate back in high school too. The thing I realized about Oxford is you go down a rabbit hole of rules and procedures that you begin not to make any sense.  It's why I switched to parliamentary.  I thought the entire Oxford thing was just a spectacle, with a bunch of people trying to rattle off things and make points.  It actually makes you a very poor debater out there in the real world.
> 
> But I still think it's funny you think we are actually "debating" (see the quotes there again).  Another snort for you.


Formal Forensics as a class or club activity is used to teach people by demonstration and criticism ways to think clearly and make convincing argument ts.  I guess it didn't help.

Please continue.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Cases are useful not for themselves, but as a leading indicator of hospitalizations and deaths.  It’s the hospitalizations and deaths that are the problem.
> 
> The three are not decoupled.  The ratio has just changed over the long term.  But a short term doubling of cases still means you can expect more hospitalizations and deaths, too.


Delta has yielded more cases but consistently lower IFR yoy with last September being pre-vax and more masking!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.


Is this an "old man yells at clouds" moment? The best way to approach this is with honest, open leadership, not paternalistic, hypocritical douchebags who preach one thing about policy but live another. The more "red lines" that get drawn around individual choices, the larger the group of ... deplorables(?) becomes. It doesn't help. Quite the contrary, it makes governing more difficult as you may have noticed.


----------



## Kicker4Life

NorCalDad said:


> Sure, but what are you going to say...."Ok everyone, lose weight, fast"


Well we’ve know Obesity is one of the HIGHEST risk factors for oat least a year.  Have you seen one single mention of it in all the CDC rhetoric or from the media?  No, it’s always and only been “vaccines”, why?  That is the part I just don’t understand. 

A key argument for vaccines is to reduce the strain on hospitals.  Well wouldn’t something as simple as diet and exercise have a very similar affect at a reduced cost to our government and overall healthcare industry?

I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation. 

To me adding a BMI scale to the entrance of businesses isn’t much different than having to show a Vaccine card, but that’s my opinion.  

Thank you for a civil dialogue!


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I don't actually blame the individuals.  I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.  I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt.  You know who these people are.  You're smart.  I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.


There is plenty of misinformation on all sides.  However, somehow pro-vax misinformation is more acceptable because it "errs on the side of caution".  Again I appreciate that science changes over time but the pace its changing and doing 180's is rightfully going to lead to skepticism.  Look at the guidance on boosters.  Can we label Dad4 an anti-vaxxer because he is not in favor of a booster?

Having said that, I believe we should blame the individual. We were given a brain for a reason, although some work better than others. Ultimately we each have to wade through the info and decide what's best for our family.  Is that selfish to put family first, maybe, but I strongly believe that my duty is first to my family ahead of the community.  The community has all sorts of tools along with the responsibility to protect itself outside of what's happening in my family.  Of course, I'm not condoning reckless behavior.  If I'm sick I'm not going out to the market because I need to feed my family.  That's been the biggest problem with our Covid health policy is the lack of focus on the sick and vulnerable, but instead focusing on blanket approaches that obscure the true problem.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Well we’ve know Obesity is one of the HIGHEST risk factors for oat least a year.  Have you seen one single mention of it in all the CDC rhetoric or from the media?  No, it’s always and only been “vaccines”, why?  That is the part I just don’t understand.
> 
> A key argument for vaccines is to reduce the strain on hospitals.  Well wouldn’t something as simple as diet and exercise have a very similar affect at a reduced cost to our government and overall healthcare industry?
> 
> I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation.
> 
> To me adding a BMI scale to the entrance of businesses isn’t much different than having to show a Vaccine card, but that’s my opinion.
> 
> Thank you for a civil dialogue!


Getting vaccinated, including signing in, getting the shot, and waiting while they watch for reactions takes about half an hour.  How much weight can you lose in half an hour?


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> I don't actually blame the individuals.  I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.  I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt.  You know who these people are.  You're smart.  I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.


U R BRAINWASHED.  Get out of the cult asap.  Boosters forever for you.  I WILL NEVER PUT THAT SHIT IN MY ARM FROM WUHAN AND DR. FRAUD AND HIS PALS BILL & JEFFREY.  I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU, I TRULY MADLY AND DEELY DO FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. 

WHY DONT YOU AND YUR VAX PALS PLAY THIS SONG TOETHER IN YOUR SPA AFTER YOUR BIKE RIDE.  I HOE YOUR HAPPY WITH ALL YOUR SHOTS AND BOOSTERS......WADFUHB!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> I don't actually blame the individuals.  I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.  I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt.  You know who these people are.  You're smart.  I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.


Funny how you guys have it all backwards.  The anti-vax folks have been around for at least 30 years.  It is the bizzaro Anti-immune system movement that is new.  Lol!  No need to lay blame btw.  The blame is well established.

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## watfly

Kicker4Life said:


> Well we’ve know Obesity is one of the HIGHEST risk factors for oat least a year.  Have you seen one single mention of it in all the CDC rhetoric or from the media?  No, it’s always and only been “vaccines”, why?  That is the part I just don’t understand.
> 
> A key argument for vaccines is to reduce the strain on hospitals.  Well wouldn’t something as simple as diet and exercise have a very similar affect at a reduced cost to our government and overall healthcare industry?
> 
> I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation.
> 
> To me adding a BMI scale to the entrance of businesses isn’t much different than having to show a Vaccine card, but that’s my opinion.
> 
> Thank you for a civil dialogue!


This is what Fauci said in 2019.  It's pre-pandemic so it's not entirely fair, but the concept is the same:

_“And the best way to prevent me from getting an infectious disease and having to have you as my doctor is what? Wearing a mask — ” he began, triggering a quick dismissal from Fauci.

“No, no, no,” Fauci said, letting out a laugh.

“I don’t need to do that,” Rubenstein said following Fauci’s reaction. “If somebody’s–  I can see they’re getting ready to sneeze or cough, walk away?”

“You avoid all the paranoid aspects and do something positive,” Fauci responded, seemingly categorizing mask-wearing as a tool of the “paranoid.”

“A. Good diet. B. You don’t smoke, I know. I know you don’t drink. At least not very much, so that’s pretty good. Get some exercise. I know that you don’t get as much exercise as you should,” Fauci continued.

“Get good sleep. I think the normal, low tech healthy things are the best things you can do, David, to stay healthy,” Fauci added._

Obviously, just telling people to get in better shape wasn't going to solve the pandemic, but it should have been part of the recommendations.  Staying home was the worst advice ever.  It should have been get outside and get some exercise.  Instead we closed public parks, arrested people for paddle boarding and cited parents for taking their kids to the neighborhood park.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Getting vaccinated, including signing in, getting the shot, and waiting while they watch for reactions takes about half an hour.  How much weight can you lose in half an hour?


Always easier to look for a quick fix rather than a lifestyle change.  

Let me ask you this, will a Vaccine reduce your risk of Heart Disease, diabetes or any other of the multitude of medical conditions closely associated with Obesity?

Yah…god forbid you get off your ass and do something for a change.  To many people to troll, right?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> If Grace has actually put you on ignore, it's a shame that she is missing this.


Thanks for talking to yourself Espola.  Golden Gate, Long Game and the great EOTL ((maybe Husker Du is all of these angry old men all in one?)) needs to come out today and debate crush and IZ and Grace T


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1. If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.


Fantasy land. 

Delta is all around the world. In countries with high vax rates and lower vax rates. In countries with high mask compliance and with those with lower compliance. 

In other words the interventions didn't help. The virus still spread. 

Keep pretending that wearing a mask will stop the spread. Keep pretending that the virus won't spread if everyone has a vax (we already know vaxxed transmit the virus). 

Stop living in make believe land where if everyone just wore a mask and everyone was vaxxed the virus would disappear. We have billions of people on this planet that havent even had one shot.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> There are a lot of variables but socioeconomics is one.


It's the #1 reason or close to it.  No one wants to talk about it, it hits too close to agendas for many.  I don't know about CA, but the outreach in my neck of the woods for the hispanic population is weak at best: 20% vaccinated, 40% of cases, 25% of deaths.  Public health is now a political weapon.


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker4Life said:


> Always easier to look for a quick fix rather than a lifestyle change.
> 
> Let me ask you this, will a Vaccine reduce your risk of Heart Disease, diabetes or any other of the multitude of medical conditions closely associated with Obesity?
> 
> Yah…god forbid you get off your ass and do something for a change.  To many people to troll, right?


Interestingly enough, the Bay Area has 7 of the top 10 healthiest counties in CA.   I think there's a whole can of worms related to the BMI discussion.  Some of it socioeconomic as @watfly pointed out earlier.  It's a lot cheaper to eat shitty.  I think this was discussed a bit in "Super Size Me".  It does sadden me a bit that a pandemic would need to be the trigger that gets people change their eating habits, when the statistics that existed prior to the virus were already pretty awful.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Formal Forensics as a class or club activity is used to teach people by demonstration and criticism ways to think clearly and make convincing argument ts.  I guess it didn't help.
> 
> Please continue.


Dude I was one of the state finalists.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> *Public health is now a political weapon.*


Yup.  Dad, Espola, Husker, Golden Gate, Roadrunner, EOTL, Messy, NocalDad and a few others find it find & dandy to have ER Dr refuse me help if I come in with gunshot wound and no vax.  These fuckers ((sorry, I just had it out with another ex pal who hates me now)) are the most selfish pricks ever to live on the planet and would rather have me die alone in hospital.  Pay back karma is real and it will hit these men in da fcae when the time is right. Bribes & blackmail with the threat of looking bad from a pic or worse means more to them then the truth.  I do feel sorry for the one's who have been threaten with love one thrown in Woodchipper.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Always easier to look for a quick fix rather than a lifestyle change.
> 
> Let me ask you this, will a Vaccine reduce your risk of Heart Disease, diabetes or any other of the multitude of medical conditions closely associated with Obesity?
> 
> Yah…god forbid you get off your ass and do something for a change.  To many people to troll, right?


Any reason I can't do both?  I got vaxxed, and am trying to lose ten pounds.

The two are not in conflict, I think.  Or is the vaccine the reason I only lost 4 so far?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Dude I was one of the state finalists.


No nationals or double ruby pin?  Lightweight.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> It's the #1 reason or close to it.  No one wants to talk about it, it hits too close to agendas for many.  I don't know about CA, but the outreach in my neck of the woods for the hispanic population is weak at best: 20% vaccinated, 40% of cases, 25% of deaths.  Public health is now a political weapon.


That's interesting because in SD County the highest vaccinated race/ethnicity group are Hispanics at 74.5%.   Asian is next at 70.8%, White 64.1% and African American at 46.3%.  (note that not all vaccinations have been identified by race and percentages are actually higher since SD County is overall 78.2% vaccinated.)


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Always easier to look for a quick fix rather than a lifestyle change.
> 
> Let me ask you this, will a Vaccine reduce your risk of Heart Disease, diabetes or any other of the multitude of medical conditions closely associated with Obesity?
> 
> Yah…god forbid you get off your ass and do something for a change.  To many people to troll, right?


I agree we should all (on average) lose a little weight.  I don't see how that can be used as a rebuttal to follow safe practices in the endemic.

The period of time in which I lost with the most quickly was when my COPD was at its worst, eventually sending me to a night in the hospital.  When  they weighed me, I was surprised to be 35 pounds down from what I thought was too heavy, but still comfortable.  It was dramatically effective, but I wouldn't recommend it as a means for most people.

And I have usually been pretty fit, to the point of being skinny,  I gained 20 pounds in Navy boot camp, very little of it fat.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> It's a lot cheaper to eat shitty.


This is a huge problem.  I guess its cheaper to over process food, then to keep fresh food, fresh?

When you can get two tacos for a dollar or a salad for $8 at JITB therein lies your problem. (not that JITB salads are necessarily healthy).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Getting vaccinated, including signing in, getting the shot, and waiting while they watch for reactions takes about half an hour.  How much weight can you lose in half an hour?


Depends how full of shit you are.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Dude I was one of the state finalists.


So what happened to you?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> ...and many places will give you a free mask as well.


Free to transmit.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> This is a huge problem.  I guess its cheaper to over process food, then to keep fresh food, fresh?
> 
> When you can get two tacos for a dollar or a salad for $8 at JITB therein lies your problem. (not that JITB salads are necessarily healthy).


My wife does a lot of cooking from scratch, more or less (the current spaghetti uses imported noodles, the rest is all hers).  I have to be verbally appreciative since I cannot eat all she makes.  "Honey it's good, it's just too much."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

doubled said:


> Collection of data with links to studies regarding masks.  Enjoy.
> 
> https://www.justfacts.com/news_face_masks_deadly_falsehoods



_The only randomized controlled trial that evaluated cloth masks found that mandating them causes significant disease transmission in high-risk healthcare settings._


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation.


Absolutely - and with years of known risks and benefits to weight loss to back it up.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So what happened to you?


I can ask you the same question

plus you are still under the illusion that what we are doing is debating. It’s more like “shooting the shit” (look at that…more quotes)


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Fantasy land.
> 
> Delta is all around the world. In countries with high vax rates and lower vax rates. In countries with high mask compliance and with those with lower compliance.
> 
> In other words the interventions didn't help. The virus still spread.
> 
> Keep pretending that wearing a mask will stop the spread. Keep pretending that the virus won't spread if everyone has a vax (we already know vaxxed transmit the virus).
> 
> Stop living in make believe land where if everyone just wore a mask and everyone was vaxxed the virus would disappear. We have billions of people on this planet that havent even had one shot.


How is it that anti-vaxxers refuse to understand that preventative measures save lives even if they don't save every life? How is it that they think that vaccines don't help because there are breakthrough cases, although vaccines virtually eliminate the risk of serious illness and death in those breakthrough cases?

This idiot, moron or some other name thinks we shouldn't wear masks, shouldn't get vaccinated, shouldn't take any precautions because somewhere else in the world it can still spread more readily.  Measles, the flu, polio are all still spread around the world, so we should get rid of those vaccines too because intervention clearly doesn't help, right idiot?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Any reason I can't do both?  I got vaxxed, and am trying to lose ten pounds.


Then you are helping yourself 2 fold.  My point is why isn’t the Surgeon General or the CDC or the Media talking about the dramatic correlation between obesity and Severe Covid cases?  Why ONLY the vaccine?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> That's interesting because in SD County the highest vaccinated race/ethnicity group are Hispanics at 74.5%.   Asian is next at 70.8%, White 64.1% and African American at 46.3%.  (note that not all vaccinations have been identified by race and percentages are actually higher since SD County is overall 78.2% vaccinated.)


Yeah, hispanics have the highest vaccination rates in our county as well.  African Americans and White have the lowest.  Albeit they're all pretty high.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> Then you are helping yourself 2 fold.  My point is why isn’t the Surgeon General or the CDC or the Media talking about the dramatic correlation between obesity and Severe Covid cases?  Why ONLY the vaccine?


It's not PC to "fat shame"?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Sure, but what are you going to say...."Ok everyone, lose weight, fast"


Incentivize weight loss by charging our airfare according to our weight.  Instead of Gas tax, have a fat tax because your weight burns more gas and accelerates global warming.  Sell exercise equipment that charges Tesla batteries to power your home.  Take 6 vitamin D gels a day.  Get your daily dose of quercetin's via a nice 10 oz. glass of Tempranillo.  Eat 6 portion controlled meals a day, 2 hours apart.  In other words, don't be a slug.  Virus's are happy to heat you people up.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I agree we should all (on average) lose a little weight.  I don't see how that can be used as a rebuttal to follow safe practices in the endemic.
> 
> The period of time in which I lost with the most quickly was when my COPD was at its worst, eventually sending me to a night in the hospital.  When  they weighed me, I was surprised to be 35 pounds down from what I thought was too heavy, but still comfortable.  It was dramatically effective, but I wouldn't recommend it as a means for most people.
> 
> And I have usually been pretty fit, to the point of being skinny,  I gained 20 pounds in Navy boot camp, very little of it fat.


Not sure what the hell your point is here, but honestly don’t care.


----------



## NorCalDad

espola said:


> I agree we should all (on average) lose a little weight.  I don't see how that can be used as a rebuttal to follow safe practices in the endemic.
> 
> The period of time in which I lost with the most quickly was when my COPD was at its worst, eventually sending me to a night in the hospital.  When  they weighed me, I was surprised to be 35 pounds down from what I thought was too heavy, but still comfortable.  It was dramatically effective, but I wouldn't recommend it as a means for most people.
> 
> And I have usually been pretty fit, to the point of being skinny,  I gained 20 pounds in Navy boot camp, very little of it fat.


I think they should bottle Montezuma's Revenge.  I remember last time I got it, I dropped 20lbs in a matter of days.  The weight didn't come back either.


----------



## Kicker4Life

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's not PC to "fat shame"?


But it is to VAX Shame….the double standard strikes again.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> _The only randomized controlled trial that evaluated cloth masks found that mandating them causes significant disease transmission in high-risk healthcare settings._


Anti maskers are now claiming that masks cause illness because a fringe alt right website told them so.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I can ask you the same question
> 
> plus you are still under the illusion that what we are doing is debating. It’s more like “shooting the shit” (look at that…more quotes)


So that's your excuse.  No one should take anything you say seriously.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Then you are helping yourself 2 fold.  My point is why isn’t the Surgeon General or the CDC or the Media talking about the dramatic correlation between obesity and Severe Covid cases?  Why ONLY the vaccine?


Maybe you are not looking in the right place --









						The Surgeon General's Call To Action To Prevent and Decrease Overweight and Obesity - PubMed
					

Overweight and obesity have reached nationwide epidemic proportions. Both the prevention and treatment of overweight and obesity and their associated health problems are important public health goals. To achieve these goals, <i>The Surgeon General's Call To Action To Prevent and Decrease...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker4Life said:


> Then you are helping yourself 2 fold.  My point is why isn’t the Surgeon General or the CDC or the Media talking about the dramatic correlation between obesity and Severe Covid cases?  Why ONLY the vaccine?


You are a liar.  









						Body Mass Index and Risk for COVID-19–Related ...
					

This report describes the association between body mass ...




					www.cdc.gov
				











						Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
					

Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov
				











						CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese
					

An overwhelming majority of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the CDC said.




					www.cnbc.com
				











						Opinion: Obesity’s link to COVID-19 should be a wake-up call for Americans
					

The CDC published a report that 73 percent of deceased COVID-19 patients had obesity or were overweight.




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				











						CDC Data Strengthens Link of Obesity, Severe COVID
					

Researchers studied body mass index and risk for more severe COVID-19 outcomes, including ICU admission, mechanical ventilation, and death among US adults.




					www.webmd.com
				




If you want to know why vaccines get more attention in the media however, it is because the crazy people are only claiming the vaccine doesn't work and is even dangerous, not that riding a Peloton and eating fish and vegetables doesn't work and is dangerous.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> You are a liar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Body Mass Index and Risk for COVID-19–Related ...
> 
> 
> This report describes the association between body mass ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
> 
> 
> Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese
> 
> 
> An overwhelming majority of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the CDC said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: Obesity’s link to COVID-19 should be a wake-up call for Americans
> 
> 
> The CDC published a report that 73 percent of deceased COVID-19 patients had obesity or were overweight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Data Strengthens Link of Obesity, Severe COVID
> 
> 
> Researchers studied body mass index and risk for more severe COVID-19 outcomes, including ICU admission, mechanical ventilation, and death among US adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to know why vaccines get more attention in the media however, it is because the crazy people are only claiming the vaccine doesn't work and is even dangerous, not that riding a Peloton and eating fish and vegetables doesn't work and is dangerous.


Good come back on Kicker.  My buddy gots a blood clot from his second jabber.  So I call you liar now.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Maybe you are not looking in the right place --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Surgeon General's Call To Action To Prevent and Decrease Overweight and Obesity - PubMed
> 
> 
> Overweight and obesity have reached nationwide epidemic proportions. Both the prevention and treatment of overweight and obesity and their associated health problems are important public health goals. To achieve these goals, <i>The Surgeon General's Call To Action To Prevent and Decrease...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Thanks for supporting my case!  We don’t have to look for a “get your Vax and do your part” campaign.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> You are a liar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Body Mass Index and Risk for COVID-19–Related ...
> 
> 
> This report describes the association between body mass ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
> 
> 
> Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese
> 
> 
> An overwhelming majority of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the CDC said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: Obesity’s link to COVID-19 should be a wake-up call for Americans
> 
> 
> The CDC published a report that 73 percent of deceased COVID-19 patients had obesity or were overweight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Data Strengthens Link of Obesity, Severe COVID
> 
> 
> Researchers studied body mass index and risk for more severe COVID-19 outcomes, including ICU admission, mechanical ventilation, and death among US adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to know why vaccines get more attention in the media however, it is because the crazy people are only claiming the vaccine doesn't work and is even dangerous, not that riding a Peloton and eating fish and vegetables doesn't work and is dangerous.


And you’re just a moronic troll…so I guess we are even…Oh wait…how does your google skills make my statement false?  They are burying these stories rather than pushing them to the forefront (making my case, not breaking it) which makes my “moronic troll” accusation that much more credible…thanks!

To your second point, why not advertise, if your a vac skeptic or just anti-vax, here is another way you can “do your part”. But I figure that wouldn’t fit your narrow minded vision.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Anti maskers are now claiming that masks cause illness because a fringe alt right website told them so.


The Anti-Immune movement is now also the Anti-science movement that doesn't believe in RCT's.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> The Anti-Immune movement is now also the Anti-science movement that doesn't believe in RCT's.


IKR.  I don't know why people don't understand that natural immunity protects 100% of all unvaccinated people who don't die or suffer long term health issues from Covid.  So obvious.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So that's your excuse.  No one should take anything you say seriously.


Wow you really are living in an alt reality where a soccer forum is the be all end all of truth and you are it’s debating master.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow you really are living in an alt reality where a soccer forum is the be all end all of truth and you are it’s debating master.


Strawman.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Incentivize weight loss by charging our airfare according to our weight.  Instead of Gas tax, have a fat tax because your weight burns more gas and accelerates global warming.  Sell exercise equipment that charges Tesla batteries to power your home.  Take 6 vitamin D gels a day.  Get your daily dose of quercetin's via a nice 10 oz. glass of Tempranillo.  Eat 6 portion controlled meals a day, 2 hours apart.  In other words, don't be a slug.  Virus's are happy to heat you people up.


I can see Homer Simpson sitting there pondering his next move to decrease his risk. "I can start exercising, eat healthier foods, and drink less alcohol or, I can try to force others to do something I already did. Hmmmm."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  I don't know why people don't understand that natural immunity protects 100% of all unvaccinated people who don't die or suffer long term health issues from Covid.  So obvious.


Apparently not.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> That's interesting because in SD County the highest vaccinated race/ethnicity group are Hispanics at 74.5%.   Asian is next at 70.8%, White 64.1% and African American at 46.3%.  (note that not all vaccinations have been identified by race and percentages are actually higher since SD County is overall 78.2% vaccinated.)


That's great for SD county.  I haven't seen the latest this week but 7 days ago CA was sitting at around 30% vaccination rates for the hispanic community.  Good to see it trending up.  Plenty of politcis around vaxx/anti vaxx.  The reality is in many places it's not about the politics but rather the outreach.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's not PC to "fat shame"?


The reporting last spring was well beyond avoiding fat shaming.  

We were so afraid of offending overweight people that we wound up withholding critical medical information from them.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The reporting last spring was well beyond avoiding fat shaming.
> 
> We were so afraid of offending overweight people that we wound up withholding critical medical information from them.


Yeah, it was case hyping like it is now.  San Diego more than doubled cases yoy but is at .007 for IFR while last Sept. 15th there were less cases pre-vax, max mask, and an IFR of .017.  Btw overweight people knew what they were dealing with.  No critical info. was being witheld.


----------



## younothat

The resources we are using vs Covid 19 compared to everything else is just out of wacked and not balanced.   Picking only one thing a only focusing on that is misguided

What are the leading causes of death in the US?

Heart disease.
Cancer.
Unintentional injuries.
Chronic lower respiratory disease.
Stroke and cerebrovascular diseases.
Alzheimer's disease.
Diabetes.
And what are we doing about those?

How about we spend equal or any where near what we are on Covid-19 and testing on some of the above.

If its really about health how about a change?  Less for just COVID-19 and more to address the above.


----------



## dad4

younothat said:


> The resources we are using vs Covid 19 compared to everything else is just out of wacked and not balanced.   Picking only one thing a only focusing on that is misguided
> 
> What are the leading causes of death in the US?
> 
> Heart disease.
> Cancer.
> Unintentional injuries.
> Chronic lower respiratory disease.
> Stroke and cerebrovascular diseases.
> Alzheimer's disease.
> Diabetes.
> And what are we doing about those?
> 
> How about we spend equal or any where near what we are on Covid-19 and testing on some of the above.
> 
> If its really about health how about a change?  Less for just COVID-19 and more to address the above.


For 2020, Covid goes in the #3 slot on your list.  Just above unintentional injuries and below cancer.









						The Leading Causes of Death in the US for 2020
					

This Viewpoint from the US National Center for Health Statistics reports a 2020 mortality estimate 17.7% higher than that of 2019, with leading causes of death comprising heart disease, cancer, and COVID-19.




					jamanetwork.com
				




It will probably be #3 for 2021 as well, even without delta.  The Jan-March numbers were that bad.

Without a major public health effort, covid would have been the #1 cause of death in both years.

So, not as misguided as you say.  Covid was, and remains, a significant public health problem.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Strawman.


Gaslighting


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No nationals or double ruby pin?  Lightweight.


Much to my parents pulling out their hair, I was much more into the horsey ribbons.  Horsey ribbons almost 100X as expensive as soccer trophies.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Highly vaccinated areas aren’t seeing all that many cases.  There is no such things as “a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s.”.
> 
> The places with the high case rates are the same as the paces with the low vax rates.











						Vermont COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Vermont COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




and these are vaccine + masks









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Oregon COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Oregon COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Yeah, I know....it's always in the definition....you consider "highly vaccinated" as the 90s.  It will be interesting.  Places like NYC, Madrid, Singapore, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Boston should, between natural immunity and vaccination, be in the low 90s (excluding children under 12) by October/November.  Do they get spared a winter wave? 

As we've discussed, I think it's really a function about whose right about fading immunity: the Israelis, Fauci & Co. or the English.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> For 2020, Covid goes in the #3 slot on your list.  Just above unintentional injuries and below cancer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Leading Causes of Death in the US for 2020
> 
> 
> This Viewpoint from the US National Center for Health Statistics reports a 2020 mortality estimate 17.7% higher than that of 2019, with leading causes of death comprising heart disease, cancer, and COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will probably be #3 for 2021 as well, even without delta.  The Jan-March numbers were that bad.
> 
> Without a major public health effort, covid would have been the #1 cause of death in both years.
> 
> So, not as misguided as you say.  Covid was, and remains, a significant public health problem.


Without a major public health effort for heart disease and cancer, COVID will never be #1 or #2 for that matter.  If COVID did become 1 or 2, that would make your major public health effort not so major.  The Anti-immune system movement is anti-liberty and anti-human rights.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Vermont COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Vermont COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
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> 
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> www.worldometers.info
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> Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
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> 
> Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and these are vaccine + masks
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
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> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
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> 
> Oregon COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Oregon COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know....it's always in the definition....you consider "highly vaccinated" as the 90s.  It will be interesting.  Places like NYC, Madrid, Singapore, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Boston should, between natural immunity and vaccination, be in the low 90s (excluding children under 12) by October/November.  Do they get spared a winter wave?
> 
> As we've discussed, I think it's really a function about whose right about fading immunity: the Israelis, Fauci & Co. or the English.


Herd immunity threshold is 1-1/R.  Total pop, not just 12+. 

You can’t just say ‘we have a 60% vax rate, why isn’t it over?”.  If you have a 60% vax rate and the disease has R=8, then you are not there yet.  

SCC look good only because we have over 70% vaccinated, _and_ we have significant prior infections, _and_ we are still using masks, _and_ we kept other NPI.   Even then, our cases decline only slowly.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Herd immunity threshold is 1-1/R.  Total pop, not just 12+.
> 
> You can’t just say ‘we have a 60% vax rate, why isn’t it over?”.  If you have a 60% vax rate and the disease has R=8, then you are not there yet.
> 
> SCC look good only because we have over 70% vaccinated, _and_ we have significant prior infections, _and_ we are still using masks, _and_ we kept other NPI.   Even then, our cases decline only slowly.


So if I read you correctly you are banking on the 5-12 vaxx (and/oor infection running through that group prior to winter) to end it, and you are also banking on there being negligible waning from vaccine immunity (e.g. Fauci/Israelis are wrong)?


----------



## Grace T.

A fairly simple outline of the legal arguments against the Biden vaccine mandate written for non-lawyers





__





						Biden's Vaccine Mandate Is Counterproductive and Likely Illegal | Opinion
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Much to my parents pulling out their hair, I was much more into the horsey ribbons.  Horsey ribbons almost 100X as expensive as soccer trophies.


Aha. It looks like now we know how Grace T. has managed to not work in her adult life: mooching off her parents to maintain her privileged lifestyle. Back in the day they paid for equestrian, and now they pay for everything Grace T.?


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Aha. It looks like now we know how Grace T. has managed to not work in her adult life: mooching off her parents to maintain her privileged lifestyle. Back in the day they paid for equestrian, and now they pay for everything Grace T.?


Says the troll from his parents basement…..


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So if I read you correctly you are banking on the 5-12 vaxx (and/oor infection running through that group prior to winter) to end it, and you are also banking on there being negligible waning from vaccine immunity (e.g. Fauci/Israelis are wrong)?


For SCC, 5-12 and Biden's mandate should do it. We may be also stuck with indoor masks during winter as a social thing indefinitely.  Might be a booster eventually.

For the southeast and upper midwest?  They're just going to keep getting sick until they hit their 90-95%.  Wish it weren't true.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> For SCC, 5-12 and Biden's mandate should do it. We may be also stuck with indoor masks during winter as a social thing indefinitely.  Might be a booster eventually.
> 
> For the southeast and upper midwest?  They're just going to keep getting sick until they hit their 90-95%.  Wish it weren't true.


The "peter out" (see espola...more quotes!!!) theory is dependent on two assumptions: 1) no waning vaccine immunity, and 2) the variants don't continue to evade both natural and vaccine immunity.

The problem with the masks forever is that you are essentially condemning the office to death.  Masks to the upper middle class are a signal it's not safe.  If it's not safe, you can't demand people return to the offices (particularly given the trend to shared space, open offices).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A fairly simple outline of the legal arguments against the Biden vaccine mandate written for non-lawyers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden's Vaccine Mandate Is Counterproductive and Likely Illegal | Opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


This part --

 I fear that mandating vaccines will have the unintended consequence of increasing vaccine hesitancy. As any parent or teacher knows, when you order people to do something, they are motivated to do the opposite. Some employees will submit fraudulent vaccine records. Others will simply refuse to get their shots, and dare employers to fire them. And countless state governments, employers and employees will go to court to halt this program.  

Predicting childish behavior by the portion of the population that has already demonstrated it doesn't take much thought.  The rest of it looks like it was an assignment to write a given viewpoint, paid by the word.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The "peter out" (see espola...more quotes!!!) theory is dependent on two assumptions: 1) no waning vaccine immunity, and 2) the variants don't continue to evade both natural and vaccine immunity.
> 
> The problem with the masks forever is that you are essentially condemning the office to death.  Masks to the upper middle class are a signal it's not safe.  If it's not safe, you can't demand people return to the offices (particularly given the trend to shared space, open offices).


For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster.   If there is one, we'll take it.   If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.  

You think winter masks are incompatible with offices?  How do you explain Tokyo?  Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> Says the troll from his parents basement…..


He's such a pathetic boor.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster.   If there is one, we'll take it.   If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.
> 
> You think winter masks are incompatible with offices?  How do you explain Tokyo?  Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.


Are both countries in lockstep in terms of how they are dealing with COVID? It doesn't appear that way to me. Many US companies have been doing business remotely for well over a year. If it's not safe enough to go back without a mask, why bother going back at all?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Are both countries in lockstep in terms of how they are dealing with COVID? It doesn't appear that way to me. Many US companies have been doing business remotely for well over a year. If it's not safe enough to go back without a mask, why bother going back at all?


Nothing to do with whether US is mirroring Japan.

Japan was just an easy counterexample to grace's claim that masks are incompatible with offices.  Japan has had offices and masks for decades. 

For that matter, we had masks in the office in 1919 and again in the 1950s.  And many companies require masks right now for labs, manufacturing, shipping, receiving, and so on.

Given all that, I cannot believe that masks in the office are inconceivable.  We've already done it.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Delta is Dying*
> 
> 
> An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.
> 
> Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.
> 
> *Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.*


I'm curious.  You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines, and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection.  But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines?  The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available.   There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too.  Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt?   Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.


----------



## Roadrunner

How many parents would want to play pick up soccer games while their kids practice or play games?  It might be amusing. We used to do that while they were in AYSO.  Now we mostly sit around and increase our BMI while watching them sweat and tell them to push harder..


----------



## thirteenknots

Roadrunner said:


> I'm curious.  You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines, and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection.  But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines?  The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available.   There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too.  Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt?   Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.


I'll take a Rum and Coke, that guy at the other end of the bar
scratching his butt will take a squirt of Cortizone-10.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Nothing to do with whether US is mirroring Japan.
> 
> Japan was just an easy counterexample to grace's claim that masks are incompatible with offices.  Japan has had offices and masks for decades.
> 
> For that matter, we had masks in the office in 1919 and again in the 1950s.  And many companies require masks right now for labs, manufacturing, shipping, receiving, and so on.
> 
> Given all that, I cannot believe that masks in the office are inconceivable.  We've already done it.


Japan residents sweep their own sidewalks as well. We’ll see.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Highly vaccinated areas aren’t seeing all that many cases.  There is no such things as “a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s.”.
> 
> The places with the high case rates are the same as the paces with the low vax rates.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> How is it that anti-vaxxers refuse to understand that preventative measures save lives even if they don't save every life? How is it that they think that vaccines don't help because there are breakthrough cases, although vaccines virtually eliminate the risk of serious illness and death in those breakthrough cases?


Vaccines just hitch hike on the immune system by uber needle directly in to the blood stream instead of having to go through that thicket of nose hairs that flow from your nose.   Seriously though, the ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM movement misses the multi layered immune system.  It is too fragile to compete with corona aerosols.  Otherwise, we could just crop dust people and hope the mRNA is robust enough to go to battle the same way that Corona does.  But no, it needs to be put directly in to the blood stream.  Pretty lame defense. 



GoldenGate said:


> This idiot, moron or some other name thinks we shouldn't wear masks, shouldn't get vaccinated, shouldn't take any precautions because somewhere else in the world it can still spread more readily.  Measles, the flu, polio are all still spread around the world, so we should get rid of those vaccines too because intervention clearly doesn't help, right idiot?


Nobody said you can't wear as many mask as you need.  What helps is clean drinking water, proper sanitation, healthy BMI, health diet and daily exercise.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> For SCC, 5-12 and Biden's mandate should do it. We may be also stuck with indoor masks during winter as a social thing indefinitely.  Might be a booster eventually.
> 
> For the southeast and upper midwest?  They're just going to keep getting sick until they hit their 90-95%.  Wish it weren't true.


*The Totalitarian Roots of Vaccine Mandates*
Over the course of the pandemic, principles of what a free society means are being redefined by collectivists.

Consider this essay, Don’t COVID Vaccine Mandates Actually Promote Freedom? Medical ethicists Kyle Ferguson and Arthur Caplan argue, “Those who oppose cracking down on the unvaccinated are getting it all wrong.” Ferguson and Caplan are sure their opponents have a “flawed view of freedom.” They argue “Passports and mandates are hardly ‘strong-arm tactics.’ These strategies are better seen as liberty inducers. They bring about freedom rather than deplete it.”

They add, “a successful COVID-19 vaccination campaign will liberate us — as individuals and as a collective — from the callous grip of a pandemic that just won’t seem to end.” Orwell’s “Party” proclaimed in _1984 _that “Freedom is slavery.” Ferguson and Caplan come close to arguing “Slavery is freedom.”


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster.   If there is one, we'll take it.   If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.
> 
> You think winter masks are incompatible with offices?  How do you explain Tokyo?  Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.


The uptake for the flu shot is about 50% IIRC.

Mask compliance isn't 100% in Japan.  Generally before the pandemic, they wore them if they weren't feeling well or were afraid to get sick.  But the problem in the US is you've signaled that mask mean dangerous.  It's not normalized and probably never will be with about 40% of the population.    So while you have a mask mandate you are signaling to workers it's not safe, which means the offices can't reopen.  If you were to do it voluntarily and maybe even encourage you'd get some uptake....but mandate it and people dig in their heels.

We've secretly suspected your closet desire is for people to wear masks during flu season even if it's just for the flu and for all this to get normalized.  This seems to indicate you are right.

p.s. went to dinner at the Smokehouse this evening in Burbank.  We ate at the patio because we have the dog with us.  Surprising number of people on the patio despite that they took down their front of the house outdoor tent.  Inside was at about 50% capacity.  But the mask mandate in restaurants is so stupid.  As my party was walking out with the mask and carrying the dog on our hip, we noticed that practically NO ONE at any table was masked.  What good did our wearing masks crossing the dining room actually do?


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> How many parents would want to play pick up soccer games while their kids practice or play games?  It might be amusing. We used to do that while they were in AYSO.  Now we mostly sit around and increase our BMI while watching them sweat and tell them to push harder..


My father in his 30s used to do this while my brother and I played AYSO.  They had quite a league going.  But they neglected to account that the teams were all segregated into nationalities and they were all supercompetitive as a result.  One slide tackle and a shattered ankle by one doc in his 40s and that was pretty much the end of the league.


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like Rand Paul may best Fauci on this issue too.  If they do recognized natural immunity via confirmed PCR test, it would resolve the vaccination numbers (we'd be close to 80-90% of the whole population in some heavily hit jurisdictions.  But they won't do it because they are too far out on the limb already,.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> Says the troll from his parents basement…..


Iirc eotl was posting from a library.  It’s why he disappears in the evenings.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I'm curious.  You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines,


I actually don't doubt the value vaccines.  To those who need to travel to make money vaccine$ have much value.  They aren't of much value to me because I am a part of a caste system that allows me to work from a laptop and create value without the aid of a vaccine.




Roadrunner said:


> and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection.


Please show me the post where I've suggested such a thing.  But I am not surprised that many have developed immunity by infection that you must be implying they went looking for?  




Roadrunner said:


> But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines?


 I don't know that I do.  But the government is not mandating that treatment and so it has that going for it.



Roadrunner said:


> The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available.   There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too.  Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt?   Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.


But to your point, I don't know enough about monoclonals to opine.  All I know is that Desantis is making all you ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM  movement folks look bad with the kind of numbers the state is churning out despite their OPEN status.  But it does seem that the ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM movement is resistant to all other forms of therapies that allow folks to weather the COVID storm.  I understand there are risk and challenges with ALL drugs and therapies.  But the CDC EUA'd Hydroxychloroquine because nothing else was available at the time under the assumption that the vaccine would be the Silver Bullet that it never has been...ever.  And yes variants do develop.  That's the virus gonna virus thing that you people hate until you realize that there is a new flu vaccine every year.  

I'm a pro-market guy, not pro-business.  Moderna, Pfizer, and J&J are the Too Big to Fail of Big Pharma. The government is picking winners and losers like it always does in its long history of failed interventions that lack redundancy and innovation.  This is nothing but big government crony capitalism designed to bail out big pharma's creditors. The TBTF banks.

*But just jump to 3:34 and you'll see the politics of COVID*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Iirc eotl was posting from a library.  It’s why he disappears in the evenings.


The prison library! I should have known!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Looks like Rand Paul may best Fauci on this issue too.  If they do recognized natural immunity via confirmed PCR test, it would resolve the vaccination numbers (we'd be close to 80-90% of the whole population in some heavily hit jurisdictions.  But they won't do it because they are too far out on the limb already,.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/


Same guy as the WSJ article.  He changed his tune on the Israeli study.  This time he got it right.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> What good did our wearing masks crossing the dining room actually do?


Proved they can control you.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> View attachment 11669


yeah, that’s the graph.  the top right corner is high vax, high hospitalization.  It’s completely empty, because the vax works.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> yeah, that’s the graph.  the top right corner is high vax, high hospitalization.  It’s completely empty, because the vax works.


Works how? Vaccinated still contract and spread.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Works how? Vaccinated still contract and spread.


Vaccinated folks can spread covid, but we aren't very good at it.  The immune system lowers the viral load before we can infect all that many people.
We also tend to get less sick, so we don't show up as hospitalizations.

Unvaccinated people who never had covid are much more efficient at infecting others.  Their immune system doesn't know what to do, so it takes longer to decrease the viral load.   That means they are contagious for a longer time.  More time means more new people infected. 

 The unvaccinated are also are far more likely to be hospitalized.

But you knew all that, right?  Why ask?


----------



## crush

Dad of 4 kids said this last night.  Crush response in (( )).  These people........

*Unvaccinated people who never had covid are much more efficient at infecting others*.  ((How do you or anyone making such a bold statement know if they never had Domic AI?  How would you or any Doc know for certain that an anti-vaxer Schmuck like Crush has IT and then handed IT off to you someone like you Dad, a Pro-Vaxer?  Where is the link with factual numbers based on your assumption?)

*Their immune system doesn't know what to do.  *((No dad, you don;t know how to live a healthy life style and instead you inject exerimental toxic mix into your blood stream.  Plus, you promote the Jab as safe and something excellent to add to one's blood stream)).

*it takes longer to decrease the viral load.   *((Whacko & Coo Coo))

*That means they are contagious for a longer time.  *((Crazy talk.  Link please))

*More time means more new people infected.  *((Blame it on the rain loser))

*The unvaccinated are also are far more likely to be hospitalized * ((Oh really?))

Dad, I know 100% you watch CNN and read CNN.com.  Bruddah IZ and Crush have been preaching a healthy life style forever.  If your job requires travel and bars, then by all means you can get the Jabber Doo to feel safer and wear three mask.  I think what I'm seeing now is people are jealous and now mad at me and IZ because we made the right call and they are starting to second guess the 2nd jab.  Just so you know, adding a foreign mix of shit to anyone's blood cells and the stream the blood flows is super risky life style.  The Rats said no bro, did you know that?  If you work from home like IZ or out at Camp Site like me, then no Jabber needed.  You and the others can have the city life, bars, airports, hotels, restaurants, galas and just the good life.  Enjoy the boosters bitch......lol!!!  TGIF!!!


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Vaccinated folks can spread covid, but we aren't very good at it.  The immune system lowers the viral load before we can infect all that many people.
> We also tend to get less sick, so we don't show up as hospitalizations.
> 
> Unvaccinated people who never had covid are much more efficient at infecting others.  Their immune system doesn't know what to do, so it takes longer to decrease the viral load.   That means they are contagious for a longer time.  More time means more new people infected.
> 
> The unvaccinated are also are far more likely to be hospitalized.
> 
> But you knew all that, right?  Why ask?


Ah, I see...vaccine use to mean immunity...but now is defined as "less sick"... dizzying.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> What good did our wearing masks crossing the dining room actually do?


None whatsoever. 

Masks wont stop this thing. 

Remember at the beginning when people pointed out that the airflow just goes in different directions and @dad4 said that was BS. I notice recently he used the word PLUMES when he talks about masks. As in yeah I guess the air just goes a different direction and the virus will end up flowing freely all around. 

So keep that in mind as they make you wear a mask on a plane. 

The only masks that make a difference are the n95 masks. And the problem with those is 1) even the medical profession has to be trained to use them and 2) they are only designed for short periods of time. 

Masks be it surgical or cloth are security theater. 

Respect the plume!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> Ah, I see...vaccine use to mean immunity...but now is defined as "less sick"... dizzying.


Yeah, certain viruses mutate to quickly/easily for a vaccine to be of any use. HIV is one. Some don’t, such as measles, so one vaccine may completely protect you (can’t get it, can’t spread it) for life. COVID-19 is somewhere in between. At some point it’s very likely the original vaccine won’t offer any protection from a new variant. However, the vaccine may offer “partial” protection - less severe case and shorter duration - from variants that haven’t move too far from the original version of the virus that was used as the basis for the vaccine.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, certain viruses mutate to quickly/easily for a vaccine to be of any use. HIV is one. Some don’t, such as measles, so one vaccine may completely protect you (can’t get it, can’t spread it) for life. COVID-19 is somewhere in between. At some point it’s very likely the original vaccine won’t offer any protection from a new variant. However, the vaccine may offer “partial” protection - less severe case and shorter duration - from variants that haven’t move too far from the original version of the virus that was used as the basis for the vaccine.


And what that means is the covid is likely to be endemic like the flu. 

It is never going away. 

At some point people need to realize that and adjust their perception of risk (many dramatically overstate the risk to themselves) and move on and live a normal life.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> I actually don't doubt the value vaccines.  ...
> But to your point, I don't know enough about monoclonals to opine.  All I know is that Desantis is making all you ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM  movement folks look bad with the kind of numbers the state is churning out despite their OPEN status.


I don't know why you are insisting that those advocating vaccines as the safer route to gaining immunity are somehow anti-immune system.  Or maybe that's not your argument?  In any case, Florida has the worst death rate per 100,000 people right now of all states, and also are tied for, or the worst in the US, when comparing nursing home death rates.  I don't think these are good numbers.  Maybe Desantis personal finance numbers are looking good?  - he invested in some of the monoclonal antibody pharmaceutical companies. 

 I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Vaccinated folks can spread covid, but we aren't very good at it.  The immune system lowers the viral load before we can infect all that many people.
> We also tend to get less sick, so we don't show up as hospitalizations.
> 
> Unvaccinated people who never had covid are much more efficient at infecting others.  Their immune system doesn't know what to do, so it takes longer to decrease the viral load.   That means they are contagious for a longer time.  More time means more new people infected.
> 
> The unvaccinated are also are far more likely to be hospitalized.
> 
> But you knew all that, right?  Why ask?


You are fundamentally correct.  The issue is the linear approach.  Public health has lost its way during this pandemic.  Imagine a system that encourages  the medical community to vaccinate and treat at the same time.  Testing early/often, early disease intervention, no stigma attached to creative treatments prescribed by your doctor.   But we'll continue to politicize and divide. Not everyone is going to get vaccinated, especially those that know they've had a previous infection.  

We'll also continue to not acknowledge that the vaccines aren't working as well as many thought.  We thought we could vaccinate our way out of this.  It's obvious that's not the case.  Do the vaccines work?  Sure, they work good enough and they are an effective tool.


----------



## crush

Never in a million years did I think I'd ever be talking about Nikki Minaj’s cousin’s friend's nuts - but here we are


----------



## Desert Hound

This is the idiocy that spreads. 

Consider the very high vax rate. 

Consider that college age kids have no risk of covid

Then consider what Brown is doing. 









						Brown suspends in-person gatherings despite nearly 98% vaccination rate, no COVID outbreak | The College Fix
					

Vaccinated students have also been told to wear masks inside their off-campus residences except when eating alone.




					www.thecollegefix.com


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, certain viruses mutate to quickly/easily for a vaccine to be of any use. HIV is one. Some don’t, such as measles, so one vaccine may completely protect you (can’t get it, can’t spread it) for life. COVID-19 is somewhere in between. At some point it’s very likely the original vaccine won’t offer any protection from a new variant. However, the vaccine may offer “partial” protection - less severe case and shorter duration - from variants that haven’t move too far from the original version of the virus that was used as the basis for the vaccine.





kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, certain viruses mutate to quickly/easily for a vaccine to be of any use. HIV is one. Some don’t, such as measles, so one vaccine may completely protect you (can’t get it, can’t spread it) for life. COVID-19 is somewhere in between. At some point it’s very likely the original vaccine won’t offer any protection from a new variant. However, the vaccine may offer “partial” protection - less severe case and shorter duration - from of that haven’t move too far from the original version of the virus that was used as the basis for the vaccine.


Hence, the CDC changes the definition...

...and "certain viruses"; "to be of any use"; "Some don’t";  "somewhere in between"; "At some point"; "it’s very likely"; "won’t offer any protection"; "may offer “partial” protection"

... that's a lot of gray-area and uncertainty for a MANDATE.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> Hence, the CDC changes the definition...
> 
> ...and "certain viruses"; "to be of any use"; "Some don’t";  "somewhere in between"; "At some point"; "it’s very likely"; "won’t offer any protection"; "may offer “partial” protection"
> 
> ... that's a lot of gray-area and uncertainty for a MANDATE.


Agree.


----------



## met61

Roadrunner said:


> I don't know why you are insisting that those advocating vaccines as the safer route to gaining immunity are somehow anti-immune system.  Or maybe that's not your argument?  In any case, Florida has the worst death rate per 100,000 people right now of all states, and also are tied for, or the worst in the US, when comparing nursing home death rates.  I don't think these are good numbers.  Maybe Desantis personal finance numbers are looking good?  - he invested in some of the monoclonal antibody pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


...could be the same reason you are insisting that those who advocate a healthy immune system over a trial drug are anti-vaxxers...funny how that works.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> This is the idiocy that spreads.
> 
> Consider the very high vax rate.
> 
> Consider that college age kids have no risk of covid
> 
> Then consider what Brown is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brown suspends in-person gatherings despite nearly 98% vaccination rate, no COVID outbreak | The College Fix
> 
> 
> Vaccinated students have also been told to wear masks inside their off-campus residences except when eating alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecollegefix.com


Same reason they can make Grace T walk masked through a restaurant while tables full of unmasked are eating...because they can.


----------



## NorCalDad

Found this interesting:



			https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-Mid-Year-Fatality-Report_FINAL.pdf


----------



## Desert Hound

met61 said:


> because they can.


Because people put up with it. 

But fewer and fewer are willing to put up with nonsense like that.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> This is the idiocy that spreads.
> 
> Consider the very high vax rate.
> 
> Consider that college age kids have no risk of covid
> 
> Then consider what Brown is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brown suspends in-person gatherings despite nearly 98% vaccination rate, no COVID outbreak | The College Fix
> 
> 
> Vaccinated students have also been told to wear masks inside their off-campus residences except when eating alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecollegefix.com


College-age kids have no risk of covid?


----------



## crush

They love being controlled, dominated and told what to do fellas and wear to go and who they can go with.  It's 100% a cult and It's 100% in their DNA and blood.  They need AI blood work to survive and want us to contaminate our pure blood from a very high source of bloodline.  I love my bloodline and do not want anything added to it that Dr. Fruad, Bill, Jeffrey developed in Wuhan.  We non-jabbers have different DNA & Blood.  We think outside the box, we critical think first, we ask questions, we love the truth, no matter what, we have been lied to in the past, we see how these same losers acted on FB in 2016 when HRC lost and lastly, we can survive without being told how to walk and talk and we can chew gum at same time when we talk & talk & 100% not afraid to speak our minds.  I totally get it now and now I have empathy towards those WHO need a a boss lady or boss man to boss you around.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> College-age kids have no risk of covid?


Apart from anything having to do with the virus itself in this age group, one real effect was/is college kids needing to drop out to take care of sick parents or provide other types of family support.


----------



## crush

Get the popcorn out everyone.  Do you see the news drips today?  Oh my, the rats are caught.  We will not have to talk about the flu anymore.  WE ALL GOT PLAYED!  Met 61 is trying to share what he knows what I know to be true as well, "we got played."  Now, what are we going to do about that?


----------



## crush

How about a Lin Wood TGIF Quiz with multiple choice for those who prefer that kind of testing then an essay....lol!

WHO cheated in the 2020 election?

A.  Democrats
B.  Rhino Republicans
C.  Globalist ((Elitist))
D.  Communist
E.  Communist Sympathizers
F.  Socialist
G.  Marxist
H.  Deep State
I.  All the above

Note from Lin: There is a hint imbedded in the question that points to the correct answer.  TGIF everyone.


----------



## watfly

It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?

Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


Everyone is wearing a mask bro where I hang out.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Everyone is wearing a mask bro where I hang out.


That's probably good policy for a bathhouse.

Sorry bro, just kidding, I couldn't help myself.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


Just got donuts* and dropped my kid off at school.

Everyone I saw was masked.  Students were masked.  Traffic guys were masked.  Donut customer was masked.  Donut clerk was masked.

Traffic was light because a lot of people are still on zoom.  If I get sushi, it will be takeout, because my favorite place is still takeout only.

So, yes.  It's different up here.

*Kicker will remind me that the donuts are probably not in line with that goal of losing ten pounds.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> College-age kids have no risk of covid?


Nope. Take a look at cdc stats of those who have died under that age of 24. 

When you see the number you will realize that this age group has no concern related to covid.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?



Almost all of the big company offices in Los Angeles (law firms, banking, pharmaceuticals, the motion picture studios) are closed.  The function of an office is to socialize and collaborate.  You can't do that if you are still distancing, which you have to if you have a mask on because mask = not safe as far as the safety officers are concerned.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


My community is just like as you describe above. 

What I get a kick out of is that the very few wearing masks are probably already vaxxed...and so I think...what is the point of the mask?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Just got donuts* and dropped my kid off at school.
> 
> Everyone I saw was masked.  Students were masked.  Traffic guys were masked.  Donut customer was masked.  Donut clerk was masked.
> 
> Traffic was light because a lot of people are still on zoom.  If I get sushi, it will be takeout, because my favorite place is still takeout only.
> 
> So, yes.  It's different up here.
> 
> *Kicker will remind me that the donuts are probably not in line with that goal of losing ten pounds.


Generally, the people in the kitchen are masked.  Varies for food servers.  Our sushi place is slammed for takeout as well.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That's probably good policy for a bathhouse.
> 
> Sorry bro, just kidding, I couldn't help myself.


It's ok Robert the Bruce....lol.  I need you to be a freaking Lion for Judah bro, not a wimp.  Get your shit together brother...lol.  Just kidding, I couln't help myself either.  TGIFF, right?  These prideful, pathetic pricks have gone too far with our freedom.  I never have gone to a bathhouse bro, just so you know.


----------



## met61

...but, but









						Study Shows Vaccine Will ENHANCE Delta Infectivity
					

STORY AT-A-GLANCE A group of Japanese researchers released research showing that the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant “is poised to acquire complete resistance” to existing COVID-19 jabs When four common mutations were introduced to the Delta variant, Pfizer’s mRNA injection enhanced its infectivity...




					basedunderground.com


----------



## met61

espola said:


> College-age kids have no risk of covid?


...or lightening strikes.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Almost all of the big company offices in Los Angeles (law firms, banking, pharmaceuticals, the motion picture studios) are closed.  The function of an office is to socialize and collaborate.  You can't do that if you are still distancing, which you have to if you have a mask on because mask = not safe as far as the safety officers are concerned.


My buddy just got hired at a law firm in downtown LA.  He's not Vaxed.  He starts first day and some lady told him he needs to wear a mask.  Then she ask, "you are jabbed, right?"  He said no and then she got all crazy and went to the boss ((lead partner in firm)).  They all sat down and came up with a game plan.  Dude dooes not have to wear mask around the office, only when Beatrice is working.  She's one of the old farts ex wife who still has a job at the firm,  Anyway, no one dares ask my friend about his Hippa rights.  My pal went to USC and is super duper smart.  Office is open and folks are working Grace T.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Almost all of the big company offices in Los Angeles (law firms, banking, pharmaceuticals, the motion picture studios) are closed.  The function of an office is to socialize and collaborate.  You can't do that if you are still distancing, which you have to if you have a mask on because mask = not safe as far as the safety officers are concerned.


You think people can't collaborate when wearing masks?

Surgeons and nurses have been collaborating while wearing masks for decades now.  Very high stakes collaboration, if you think about it.  Millions of people go to work with masks on every day.  They still collaborate.  

Not everyone shares your view that mask = not safe.  Around here, if someone wears a mask it means that person is cautious, and nothing more.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You think people can't collaborate when wearing masks?
> 
> Surgeons and nurses have been collaborating while wearing masks for decades now.  Very high stakes collaboration, if you think about it.  Millions of people go to work with masks on every day.  They still collaborate.
> 
> Not everyone shares your view that mask = not safe.  Around here, if someone wears a mask it means that person is cautious, and nothing more.


Mask for kids is abuse ass!!!


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


We don't talk about the unvaccinated much here locally due to our high vaccination rates.  I suppose people talk about the national concerns, but I'm just speculating.  People wear masks when they go indoors.  We personally do take out (probably more than we did pre-COVID).  I suspect others are ok going inside to eat.  Hopefully take out continues to boon during the winter period.  A lot of restaurants created more outdoor seating, but obviously once it starts to rain that will go away.  All of the local stores are regularly sold out of the rapid tests.  I mean it's not normal and stress free, but it mostly works here.


----------



## met61

Roadrunner said:


> I don't know why you are insisting that those advocating vaccines as the safer route to gaining immunity are somehow anti-immune system.  Or maybe that's not your argument?  In any case, Florida has the worst death rate per 100,000 people right now of all states, and also are tied for, or the worst in the US, when comparing nursing home death rates.  I don't think these are good numbers.  Maybe Desantis personal finance numbers are looking good?  - he invested in some of the monoclonal antibody pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


...also, you need to try and keep up...the CDC has "CONveeeeniently" removed the term immunity from it's definition of vaccine.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> We don't talk about the unvaccinated much here locally due to our high vaccination rates.  I suppose people talk about the national concerns, but I'm just speculating.  People wear masks when they go indoors.  We personally do take out (probably more than we did pre-COVID).  I suspect others are ok going inside to eat.  Hopefully take out continues to boon during the winter period.  A lot of restaurants created more outdoor seating, but obviously once it starts to rain that will go away.  All of the local stores are regularly sold out of the rapid tests.  I mean it's not normal and stress free, but it mostly works here.


That's the life you all choose up there.  Obey your masters and never ask them questions and you will be doing this forever.  This will not end for you. Enjoy the boosters you bitch.....lol!  TGIFF and we can all smack each other with how we really think.  I think your a wimp and big baby who is full of himself.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Just got donuts* and dropped my kid off at school.
> 
> Everyone I saw was masked.  Students were masked.  Traffic guys were masked.  Donut customer was masked.  Donut clerk was masked.
> 
> Traffic was light because a lot of people are still on zoom.  If I get sushi, it will be takeout, because my favorite place is still takeout only.
> 
> So, yes.  It's different up here.
> 
> *Kicker will remind me that the donuts are probably not in line with that goal of losing ten pounds.


Strange that people are so masked up OUTSIDE, but OK.

Nah…cheat days are good for moral which keeps you motivated.  Maybe just a little extra cardio before or after Cheat Day


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> Because people put up with it.
> 
> But fewer and fewer are willing to put up with nonsense like that.


... we'll see.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You think people can't collaborate when wearing masks?
> 
> Surgeons and nurses have been collaborating while wearing masks for decades now.  Very high stakes collaboration, if you think about it.  Millions of people go to work with masks on every day.  They still collaborate.
> 
> Not everyone shares your view that mask = not safe.  Around here, if someone wears a mask it means that person is cautious, and nothing more.


Wearing a mask in a car or outdoors alone is a tad more than cautious, they're loons...but, free to be a loon.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> My buddy just got hired at a law firm in downtown LA.  He's not Vaxed.  He starts first day and some lady told him he needs to wear a mask.  Then she ask, "you are jabbed, right?"  He said no and then she got all crazy and went to the boss ((lead partner in firm)).  They all sat down and came up with a game plan.  Dude dooes not have to wear mask around the office, only when Beatrice is working.  She's one of the old farts ex wife who still has a job at the firm,  Anyway, no one dares ask my friend about his Hippa rights.  My pal went to USC and is super duper smart.  Office is open and folks are working Grace T.



Yes, some of the law offices are open but the ones I know that are open are on a "flex" schedule.  You can come in if you have an essential purpose, or there's a rotation schedule in place, but I'm not aware of any of the large ones being fully open (mostly just the smaller ones).  It's the same with the talent agencies BTW.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> We don't talk about the unvaccinated much here locally due to our high vaccination rates.  I suppose people talk about the national concerns, but I'm just speculating.  People wear masks when they go indoors.  We personally do take out (probably more than we did pre-COVID).  I suspect others are ok going inside to eat.  Hopefully take out continues to boon during the winter period.  A lot of restaurants created more outdoor seating, but obviously once it starts to rain that will go away.  All of the local stores are regularly sold out of the rapid tests.  I mean it's not normal and stress free, but it mostly works here.


I get the impression in our community that the mentality is get vaxxed and move-on, and if you don't get vaccinated that's your choice and has no impact on me.  Wear a mask, don't wear a mask...no one seems to care.  I'm sure some people silently judge but I don't get a real sense of the public shaming that the media is promoting.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Around here, if someone wears a mask it means that person is _*PARANOID*_, and nothing more.


I fixed it for you above.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You think people can't collaborate when wearing masks?
> 
> Surgeons and nurses have been collaborating while wearing masks for decades now.  Very high stakes collaboration, if you think about it.  Millions of people go to work with masks on every day.  They still collaborate.
> 
> Not everyone shares your view that mask = not safe.  Around here, if someone wears a mask it means that person is cautious, and nothing more.


It's not my view.  It's the message that's been sent to the upper middle class, which unlike the working classes, have been holed up working from home.  It's partially a function of the masks turning on and off when community spread gets high....high spread means not safe....you yourself acknowledged that one of the benefits of masks might be to encourage distancing.

Surgeons and nurses don't wear masks to prevent themselves from getting sick, or from limiting community spread prior to COVID.  It's to prevent infections coming into wounds, particularly the bacterial infections (which recently have become increasingly resistant to antibiotics).  If you watch them at a water cooler, even the surgeons weren't wearing their masks, and I recall when I had to have major surgery to reconstruct my ankle, none of the nurses (or nurses aids) tending to me had masks (nor the doctors on their rounds) and I had to constantly remind them to wash their hands before handling me.

If you think everyone in a hospital preCOVID was going around masked up including while chatting each other either: a. you've never been in a hospital (in which case your wife must have been hella po'd when your kids were born), or b. you are kidding yourself.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Yes, some of the law offices are open but the ones I know that are open are on a "flex" schedule.  You can come in if you have an essential purpose, or there's a rotation schedule in place, but I'm not aware of any of the large ones being fully open (mostly just the smaller ones).  It's the same with the talent agencies BTW.


I will ask him how large The Firm is.  It was funny listening to him explain how to talk your way into getting people to do what's right.  I get all emotional and it gets me to wear I want to go as well.  TGIFF Grace T.  Love you and wish you and your family the best


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of the bay area.

Funny how leadership in many places tell you this thing is dangerous, etc. And yet when it comes to their personal lives they act like there is little risk (which for most this very true). 

And then they wonder why people question them. 









						Maskless San Francisco mayor breaks health order, seen partying with BLM co-founder at nightclub
					

San Francisco Mayor London Breed was seen partying and singing maskless in a nightclub, breaking her city's mask mandate.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> Strange that people are so masked up OUTSIDE, but OK.
> 
> Nah…cheat days are good for moral which keeps you motivated.  Maybe just a little extra cardio before or after Cheat Day





watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


Gotta say this is consistent with what we saw at the smoke house yesterday.  Inside groups don't care, remove mask as soon as they hit the table.  Outside groups (the patio is much smaller than the interior and they took down the front of the house tent, but the patio was completely full) wearing masks at the tables.  I'm still suffering from long RSV and still coughing so I got some angry stares on the patio when I coughed.  The one thing which was consistent is the outside groups were all older, some frail looking.  Given the stats in these groups even for the vaxxed, don't really blame them.

Kiddos invited to 4 birthday parties this weekend.  Clearly the birthday crowds have moved on, but all of them are at least partially outside.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of the bay area.
> 
> Funny how leadership in many places tell you this thing is dangerous, etc. And yet when it comes to their personal lives they act like there is little risk (which for most this very true).
> 
> And then they wonder why people question them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maskless San Francisco mayor breaks health order, seen partying with BLM co-founder at nightclub
> 
> 
> San Francisco Mayor London Breed was seen partying and singing maskless in a nightclub, breaking her city's mask mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


They don't really believe their own policy strictures.  

They just need to "do something" so they pick whatever their health executives tell them is needed.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Nope. Take a look at cdc stats of those who have died under that age of 24.
> 
> When you see the number you will realize that this age group has no concern related to covid.



That's great!  If you ignore the people who got sick and died, there is no risk whatsoever!

Hey! That even works for my old-farts group!  We're all going to live forever!

Moron.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> That's great!  If you ignore the people who got sick and died, there is no risk whatsoever!
> 
> Hey! That even works for my old-farts group!  We're all going to live forever!
> 
> Moron.


Not at all. 

Run the numbers. How many tens of millions fall into that group? 

The numbers of deaths are minuscule. CDC has the stats. 

Covid is not a concern. 

But I like your argument. 

It goes like this. 

I say lighting strikes are not a real risk for most people. The number is astonishingly small. 

Your brilliant comeback to refute the actual data is to say...Well if you ignore the people that actually got hit by lightning there is no risk whatsoever!!

And after you make that absurd statement you call me a moron?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> They don't really believe their own policy strictures.
> 
> They just need to "do something" so they pick whatever their health executives tell them is needed.


Elites and many politicians don't believe the rules apply to them.  Rules are for the little people and the hired help.  IMO its not hypocrisy, its arrogance.

And yes, they have to look like they're doing something, even if it lacks any substance.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Run the numbers. How many tens of millions fall into that group?
> 
> The numbers of deaths are minuscule. CDC has the stats.
> 
> Covid is not a concern.
> 
> But I like your argument.
> 
> It goes like this.
> 
> I say lighting strikes are not a real risk for most people. The number is astonishingly small.
> 
> Your brilliant comeback to refute the actual data is to say...Well if you ignore the people that actually got hit by lightning there is no risk whatsoever!!
> 
> And after you make that absurd statement you call me a moron?


Self awareness seems to be a challenge for some.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Wearing a mask in a car or outdoors alone is a tad more than cautious, they're loons...but, free to be a loon.


Not quite what I meant.  

The outdoor masks were on the traffic guys at the school.  I think the main function was to remind the kids to put on theirs as they walk in.  It probably didn’t hurt to filter out some of the car exhaust, though.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Gotta say this is consistent with what we saw at the smoke house yesterday.  Inside groups don't care, remove mask as soon as they hit the table.  Outside groups (the patio is much smaller than the interior and they took down the front of the house tent, but the patio was completely full) wearing masks at the tables.  I'm still suffering from long RSV and still coughing so I got some angry stares on the patio when I coughed.  The one thing which was consistent is the outside groups were all older, some frail looking.  Given the stats in these groups even for the vaxxed, don't really blame them.
> 
> Kiddos invited to 4 birthday parties this weekend.  Clearly the birthday crowds have moved on, but all of them are at least partially outside.


You know, your neighbors at the restaurant probably didn‘t want to catch RSV, either.

Your attending the restaurant is a great example of why it isn’t enough to say “stay home if you are sick”.   Some selfish people will still go near others even though they have a cough, fever, or other symptoms.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> You know, your neighbors at the restaurant probably didn‘t want to catch RSV, either.
> 
> Your attending the restaurant is a great example of why it isn’t enough to say “stay home if you are sick”.   Some selfish people will still go near others even though they have a cough, fever, or other symptoms.


So now if you have a sinus infection. Your supposed to stay home?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You know, your neighbors at the restaurant probably didn‘t want to catch RSV, either.
> 
> Your attending the restaurant is a great example of why it isn’t enough to say “stay home if you are sick”.   Some selfish people will still go near others even though they have a cough, fever, or other symptoms.



Not sick.  Have had long RSV now for 3 months.  It's the after affects, same as COVID.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> So now if you have a sinus infection. Your supposed to stay home?


Yes.  This is why decent employers have sick day policies.  

You are also supposed to keep kids home from school when they are sick.  

You thought we were supposed to tough it out and infect our coworkers?


----------



## watfly

I know this is technically the wrong forum, but how is the season going so far?  We just started league last weekend with a positive, but surprise result.  Only 29 lmore league games plus however many showcase games to go.  Trying to keep balance but its tough to do with 4 practices, one zoom and one to two games a week.  Not sure what's going to happen with our LA games and what restrictions there will be.  Fortunately, zero restrictions as of now for SD games.  Best of luck to everyone.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> So now if you have a sinus infection. Your supposed to stay home?


Apparently according to dad, if you have RSV (or the flu) and are stuck with a long cough or other after effects, you are supposed to stay home until such symptoms recover.  In the case of my kid when he came down with long RSV, that would have meant missing preschool for an entire year.  And people who come down with long COVID are apparently sentenced to never leaving the house for however many months or years it may take them to recover.  That's absurd.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes.  This is why decent employers have sick day policies.
> 
> You are also supposed to keep kids home from school when they are sick.
> 
> You thought we were supposed to tough it out and infect our coworkers?


I'm not aware of any employer that will give me 3 months sick days.  That's called disability, which they don't give you for a cough.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Run the numbers. How many tens of millions fall into that group?
> 
> The numbers of deaths are minuscule. CDC has the stats.
> 
> Covid is not a concern.
> 
> But I like your argument.
> 
> It goes like this.
> 
> I say lighting strikes are not a real risk for most people. The number is astonishingly small.
> 
> Your brilliant comeback to refute the actual data is to say...Well if you ignore the people that .actually got hit by lightning there is no risk whatsoever!!
> 
> And after you make that absurd statement you call me a moron?


It is @espola 's  specialty...It's called an individual circle jerk, AKA a selfie.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Apparently according to dad, if you have RSV (or the flu) and are stuck with a long cough or other after effects, you are supposed to stay home until such symptoms recover.  In the case of my kid when he came down with long RSV, that would have meant missing preschool for an entire year.  And people who come down with long COVID are apparently sentenced to never leaving the house for however many months or years it may take them to recover.  That's absurd.


So, if a teacher has a cough but she “knows” it is just allergies, then she should still go to work?

People heading out with symptoms is part of the problem.  Just skip the restaurant and enjoy a nice walk outside.  Masked, because you’re coughing.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You know, your neighbors at the restaurant probably didn‘t want to catch RSV, either.
> 
> Your attending the restaurant is a great example of why it isn’t enough to say “stay home if you are sick”.   Some selfish people will still go near others even though they have a cough, fever, or other symptoms.


Who cares if you're masked and vaxxed, right?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, if a teacher has a cough but she “knows” it is just allergies, then she should still go to work?
> 
> People heading out with symptoms is part of the problem.  Just skip the restaurant and enjoy a nice walk outside.  Masked, because you’re coughing.


I took the test.  It came back negative COVID, positive RSV.  I've been stuck with the same cough since then.  A chest x-ray revealed damage to my lungs from RSV, which like any RSV, will recover eventually (probably after several months due to my age).  So no, I'm not just assuming allergies.  I know what's going on.  If I were working as a waiter, that means you think I couldn't work, despite that I am double vaxxed and have had COVID.  The government doesn't offer disability for just a cough.  For my kid, that would mean missing an entire year of preschool back then.  That's absurd.  

It's been apparently to many of us that the main thing going on with you is hypochondria...which is why you think that people should never go out with coughs and that they should be masked in perpetuity.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> So, if a teacher has a cough but she “knows” it is just allergies, then she should still go to work?
> 
> People heading out with symptoms is part of the problem.  Just skip the restaurant and enjoy a nice walk outside.  Masked, because you’re coughing.


Testing should be readily available through schools, I think a more reasonable course of action is not to assume and get tested.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I took the test.  It came back negative COVID, positive RSV.  I've been stuck with the same cough since then.  A chest x-ray revealed damage to my lungs from RSV, which like any RSV, will recover eventually (probably after several months due to my age).  So no, I'm not just assuming allergies.  I know what's going on.  If I were working as a waiter, that means you think I couldn't work, despite that I am double vaxxed and have had COVID.  The government doesn't offer disability for just a cough.  For my kid, that would mean missing an entire year of preschool back then.  That's absurd.
> 
> It's been apparently to many of us that the main thing going on with you is hypochondria...which is why you think that people should never go out with coughs and that they should be masked in perpetuity.


p.s. even the airline guidance BTW, says you shouldn't fly with a "new cough".


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Not quite what I meant.
> 
> The outdoor masks were on the traffic guys at the school.  I think the main function was to remind the kids to put on theirs as they walk in.  It probably didn’t hurt to filter out some of the car exhaust, though.


Not quite what I meant...San Diego Unified School District all teachers and students masked indoors and outdoors...so no.


----------



## met61

Bottom line...If the vaccine protects, why do the vaccinated need protecting?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Testing should be readily available through schools, I think a more reasonable course of action is not to assume and get tested.


In the Marin case she got tested.  She just kept going to work while she waited for the results.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I took the test.  It came back negative COVID, positive RSV.  I've been stuck with the same cough since then.  A chest x-ray revealed damage to my lungs from RSV, which like any RSV, will recover eventually (probably after several months due to my age).  So no, I'm not just assuming allergies.  I know what's going on.  If I were working as a waiter, that means you think I couldn't work, despite that I am double vaxxed and have had COVID.  The government doesn't offer disability for just a cough.  For my kid, that would mean missing an entire year of preschool back then.  That's absurd.
> 
> It's been apparently to many of us that the main thing going on with you is hypochondria...which is why you think that people should never go out with coughs and that they should be masked in perpetuity.


The teacher from Marin really does have allergies.  She wasn’t just assuming it either.

Tell me again how you knew that you did not have a cold or flu infection on top of the RSV.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Just skip the restaurant and enjoy a nice walk outside. Masked, because you’re coughing.


Why on earth would anyone wear a mask outside? Walking around?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


Well, @Desert Hound just posted that Brown fears the vaccinated. I heard Duke required masks to watch the women's soccer game against Stanford 8 days ago. The only thing I have to add to what was already stated for Norcal is that Stanford is requiring proof of vaccination to enter the football stadium and the basketball pavilion for games. At the last two soccer games, the folks sitting next to me were wearing masks. Most were not wearing masks (myself included), although the workers/volunteers all appeared to be wearing masks.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Why on earth would anyone wear a mask outside? Walking around?


Trick or Treat! C'mon man!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The teacher from Marin really does have allergies.  She wasn’t just assuming it either.
> 
> Tell me again how you knew that you did not have a cold or flu infection on top of the RSV.


They ran a panel. Since then there have been no other symptoms except the long cough, which doctors have attributed to the long RSV damage to my lungs.  If I had some other symptom, of course I'd get tested.  But again, government doesn't offer disability for an ongoing cough and you can't keep out kids from school because they have long RSV or flu.  That's why the airlines ask you if you have a "new cough".


----------



## lafalafa

Desert Hound said:


> Why on earth would anyone wear a mask outside? Walking around?


Face coverings are required both indoors and outdoors at many schools and public universities in Socal for everyone.

Other states like Colorado, Arizona you don't see it but you can't walk into most places or almost any place in socal without a mask.  Outdoor dining remove the mask when eating but on otherwise generally. 

At the outdoor beach fest this past weekend needed to provide proof of vax or neg test within 72hrs to gain entry but masks where'nt required for attendees but strongly recommend,. All staff and vendors had to be masked at all times.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Just got donuts* and dropped my kid off at school.
> 
> Everyone I saw was masked.  Students were masked.  Traffic guys were masked.  Donut customer was masked.  Donut clerk was masked.
> 
> Traffic was light because a lot of people are still on zoom.  If I get sushi, it will be takeout, because my favorite place is still takeout only.
> 
> So, yes.  It's different up here.
> 
> *Kicker will remind me that the donuts are probably not in line with that goal of losing ten pounds.


Breathing high concentrates of exhaled CO2 is on the rise for the 
individuals who drink the unflavored Koolaid called Mask.

If the Vaccine is as efficient as they say it is, then why mask ?

Ask any doctor what happens when you rebreathe to much CO2.

Breathing disorders
Muscle twitching
Blood Pressure increases
Headaches
Pulse rate increase/fluctuations

Ask your Dentist what happens.

Does he mention the dental bills all parents will accumulate
from masking a child/youth/young adult - 
Tooth decay
Dry mouth syndrome/Bad Breath
Gum Disease
Etc.

The long term affects of this manufactured C***a Pandemic are going to
be astronomical.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Yes.  This is why decent employers have sick day policies.
> 
> You are also supposed to keep kids home from school when they are sick.
> 
> You thought we were supposed to tough it out and infect our coworkers?


Figured that was your answer…you do know sinus infections are NOT CONTAGIOUS, right?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I took the test.  It came back negative COVID, positive RSV.  I've been stuck with the same cough since then.  A chest x-ray revealed damage to my lungs from RSV, which like any RSV, will recover eventually (probably after several months due to my age).  So no, I'm not just assuming allergies.  I know what's going on.  If I were working as a waiter, that means you think I couldn't work, despite that I am double vaxxed and have had COVID.  The government doesn't offer disability for just a cough.  For my kid, that would mean missing an entire year of preschool back then.  That's absurd.
> 
> It's been apparently to many of us that the main thing going on with you is hypochondria...which is why you think that people should never go out with coughs and that they should be masked in perpetuity.


When there is a known deadly disease traveling around, it's a bit of a stretch to call precautions against that disease "hypochondria".


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> In the Marin case she got tested.  She just kept going to work while she waited for the results.


Shame on her, although potentially shame on the school, IDK what they did or did not know.

SDUSD has this crazy policy.  If your student has been identified as potentially exposed you have 3 options for your student:

1) Agree to be tested 4 times over the next 10 days and you will be allowed to remain in school, as long as you test negative
2) Not remain in school but get one negative test and you can return to school after 10 days
3) Stay out of school for 14 days

If you don't choose option 1) you have to immediately pick your kid up from school.   What's crazier? The policy, or the fact that we're letting these numskulls teach our children?


----------



## Grace T.

Friend sent me a Pfizer update.  Pfizer to file EU early October, assuming the results from the clinical study come back o.k. in late september, for 5-12.  Approval expected a few weeks after that (so by November).

Pfizer hopes (though that time line is a little more shaky) to file 6 months-5 years by mid November.

Full approval of 12-16 by mid November as well.

Based on this time line, I'd expect the kid vaccination wars to heat over winter break (LAUSD's vaccination deadline is also winter break).


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Breathing high concentrates of exhaled CO2 is on the rise for the
> individuals who drink the unflavored Koolaid called Mask.
> 
> If the Vaccine is as efficient as they say it is, then why mask ?
> 
> Ask any doctor what happens when you rebreathe to much CO2.
> 
> Breathing disorders
> Muscle twitching
> Blood Pressure increases
> Headaches
> Pulse rate increase/fluctuations
> 
> Ask your Dentist what happens.
> 
> Does he mention the dental bills all parents will accumulate
> from masking a child/youth/young adult -
> Tooth decay
> Dry mouth syndrome/Bad Breath
> Gum Disease
> Etc.
> 
> The long term affects of this manufactured C***a Pandemic are going to
> be astronomical.


The amount of air retained in your mask and breathed back in is only a fraction of the amount in a normal breath.  Therefore, the rest of your post is coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> When there is a known deadly disease traveling around, it's a bit of a stretch to call precautions against that disease "hypochondria".


It stretches way beyond any reasonable precautions including: masks outsides, N95s in supermarkets, would be o.k. with new normal being masking during respiratory disease season, and don't go out if you have an ongoing cough (for years, if need be....which for preschoolers with RSV essentially means don't go to preschool because around 1/4 of preschoolers in group care come down with long RSV).


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Figured that was your answer…you do know sinus infections are NOT CONTAGIOUS, right?


Then where did you get it from?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Shame on her, although potentially shame on the school, IDK what they did or did not know.
> 
> SDUSD has this crazy policy.  If your student has been identified as potentially exposed you have 3 options for your student:
> 
> 1) Agree to be tested 4 times over the next 10 days and you will be allowed to remain in school, as long as you test negative
> 2) Not remain in school but get one negative test and you can return to school after 10 days
> 3) Stay out of school for 14 days
> 
> If you don't choose option 1) you have to immediately pick your kid up from school.   What's crazier? The policy, or the fact that we're letting these numskulls teach our children?


Doesn't look numskull to me.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Friend sent me a Pfizer update.  Pfizer to file EU early October, assuming the results from the clinical study come back o.k. in late september, for 5-12.  Approval expected a few weeks after that (so by November).
> 
> Pfizer hopes (though that time line is a little more shaky) to file 6 months-5 years by mid November.
> 
> Full approval of 12-16 by mid November as well.
> 
> Based on this time line, I'd expect the kid vaccination wars to heat over winter break (LAUSD's vaccination deadline is also winter break).


Wars?  Why always so dramatic?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Yes.  This is why decent employers have sick day policies.
> 
> You are also supposed to keep kids home from school when they are sick.
> 
> You thought we were supposed to tough it out and infect our coworkers?


Where does it end?  Not all sinus infections are viral, some/many are bacterial.  The next step is to test after diagnosis of a sinus infections, determine source, quarantine for 3-8 days?  The good ol days of coughing into you arm, washing your hands, etc.  

But yes, smart to keep kids home if sick, not go to work if sick.  Going out to eat when outdoors is perfectly fine.  Eating outdoors is good for you...nutrition, Vit D, beer..can't beat that.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Shame on her, although potentially shame on the school, IDK what they did or did not know.
> 
> SDUSD has this crazy policy.  If your student has been identified as potentially exposed you have 3 options for your student:
> 
> 1) Agree to be tested 4 times over the next 10 days and you will be allowed to remain in school, as long as you test negative
> 2) Not remain in school but get one negative test and you can return to school after 10 days
> 3) Stay out of school for 14 days
> 
> If you don't choose option 1) you have to immediately pick your kid up from school.   What's crazier? The policy, or the fact that we're letting these numskulls teach our children?


Can you imagine the conversation.  

"Listen honey your going to have to get tested for Covid every other day for the next little bit to stay in school"
"But Mommy I'm afraid to get tested"
"Well honey then your going to have to stay home from school for a couple weeks"
"But Mommy I've been really good about wearing my mask at school, that's supposed to protect me. What's the point of wearing a mask then?"
"Go ask your father"

Are you smarter than a 5th grader?  Apparently not.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Then where did you get it from?


Your not very smart are you…..


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Can you imagine the conversation.
> 
> "Listen honey your going to have to get tested for Covid every other day for the next little bit to stay in school"
> "But Mommy I'm afraid to get tested"
> "Well honey then your going to have to stay home from school for a couple weeks"
> "But Mommy I've been really good about wearing my mask at school, that's supposed to protect me. What's the point of wearing a mask then?"
> "Go ask your father"
> 
> Are you smarter than a 5th grader?  Apparently not.


Fantasy.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Figured that was your answer…you do know sinus infections are NOT CONTAGIOUS, right?


I believe that the flu and the common cold both infect the sinus membranes.  Last I checked, they are contagious.

Perhaps we don’t agree on the definition of “sinus infection.”


----------



## espola

espola said:


> The amount of air retained in your mask and breathed back in is only a fraction of the amount in a normal breath.  Therefore, the rest of your post is coocoo.


And this --  "He told patients in person and through fliers in his office that masks were ineffective against COVID-19 and could even cause carbon dioxide poisoning, according to the medical board."  

The doctor in question is Steven Arthur LaTulippe of Dallas Oregon, who recently had his medical license revoked for spreading such nonsense.









						Oregon Medical Board revokes license of doctor who bucked COVID guidelines, spread misinformation
					

Steven Arthur LaTulippe's family practice did not properly screen patients, according to medical board documents. At least 95% of patients did not use masks at the clinic, and the doctor claimed masks were ineffective against COVID-19.




					www.oregonlive.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Wars?  Why always so dramatic?


Have you seen what's happening in school boards regarding CRT and masking?  Wait til we get to little Johnny 7 year old has to be vaccinated over winter break.  Even LAUSD pushed the pain out that far for fear what it would do.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Have you seen what's happening in school boards regarding CRT and masking?  Wait til we get to little Johnny 7 year old has to be vaccinated over winter break.  Even LAUSD pushed the pain out that far for fear what it would do.


Put those idiots in jail where they belong and the war is over.

The time is long past to be a whiner.  Try being a leader.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Fantasy.


If you don't think kids are going to question why they have to wear a mask, when the schools give kids the impression they don't work...then you need to dial back the THC level of your medicine, maybe just go straight CBD.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> If you don't think kids are going to question why they have to wear a mask, when the schools give kids the impression they don't work...then you need to dial back the THC level of your medicine, maybe just go straight CBD.


non sequitur


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> non sequitur


I'm pro at that.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> Why on earth would anyone wear a mask outside? Walking around?


He knows why...just too ashamed to admit it.


----------



## met61

Kicker4Life said:


> Your not very smart are you…..


FACT CHECK: True


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, @Desert Hound just posted that Brown fears the vaccinated. I heard Duke required masks to watch the women's soccer game against Stanford 8 days ago. The only thing I have to add to what was already stated for Norcal is that Stanford is requiring proof of vaccination to enter the football stadium and the basketball pavilion for games. At the last two soccer games, the folks sitting next to me were wearing masks. Most were not wearing masks (myself included), although the workers/volunteers all appeared to be wearing masks.


Oh yeah, maybe this was elsewhere, but for the Cal UC Irvine game, the Cal ladies wore masks due to Covid Protocol. Lost 1-0 in overtime.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh yeah, maybe this was elsewhere, but for the Cal UC Irvine game, the Cal ladies wore masks due to Covid Protocol. Lost 1-0 in overtime.


While they were playing? 

Madness. 

College age people have basically no risk whatsoever. 

People have lost their minds. Have no concept of actual risk.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh yeah, maybe this was elsewhere, but for the Cal UC Irvine game, the Cal ladies wore masks due to Covid Protocol. Lost 1-0 in overtime.


Only in NoCal.  I'll say it again, you can't make this stuff up.

(BTW, KandS I actually looked it up because I thought no way that's just too absurd, sorry for not trusting you)


----------



## Grace T.

rejected, denied









						FDA Panel Votes No on Biden's Booster Shot Plan
					

A White House plan would have rolled out Covid-19 booster doses for all Americans. Shares of Pfizer and Moderna slump.




					www.barrons.com


----------



## Grace T.

Washington state outbreak now about to where the prior winter wave was, despite masking and a relatively high vaccination rate.  That evil Ron DeSantis strikes again.









						Washington COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Washington COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> yeah, that’s the graph.  the top right corner is high vax, high hospitalization.  It’s completely empty, because the vax works.


The gray dots aren't blue circled for nothing...they show what you ignore.  As usual.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> While they were playing?
> 
> Madness.
> 
> College age people have basically no risk whatsoever.
> 
> People have lost their minds. Have no concept of actual risk.


Yes, while they were playing.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Only in NoCal.  I'll say it again, you can't make this stuff up.
> 
> (BTW, KandS I actually looked it up because I thought no way that's just too absurd, sorry for not trusting you)


As my wife often says, "Trust but verify."


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Washington state outbreak now about to where the prior winter wave was, despite masking and a relatively high vaccination rate.  That evil Ron DeSantis strikes again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washington COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Washington COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


Note how the press doesn't really talk about WA. 

WA is fairly strict, has high compliance, has high vax rates...

And yet what do we see? A spike in delta much like we have seen EVERYWHERE else in the world. And remember as we look around the world you have various degrees of vax rates, mask mandates, etc. And despite that delta flourishes for 4-6 weeks usually then diminishes. It doesn't care much about masks, social distancing, etc. 

This virus is going to spread. 

Time we realize that. 

Really all we can do ask the highly vulnerable to get vaxxed. Their choice.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Washington state outbreak now about to where the prior winter wave was, despite masking and a relatively high vaccination rate.  That evil Ron DeSantis strikes again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washington COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Washington COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


By the way and @dad4 won't like this either. 

The delta is spreading faster in WA vs in AZ. And yet AZ is more open.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I don't know why you are insisting that those advocating vaccines as the safer route to gaining immunity are somehow anti-immune system.  Or maybe that's not your argument?  In any case, Florida has the worst death rate per 100,000 people right now of all states, and also are tied for, or the worst in the US, when comparing nursing home death rates.  I don't think these are good numbers.  Maybe Desantis personal finance numbers are looking good?  - he invested in some of the monoclonal antibody pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


Funny how you guys have it all backwards. The anti-vax folks have been around for at least 30 years. It is the bizzaro Anti-immune system movement that is new. Lol! No need to lay blame btw. The blame is well established.

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> By the way and @dad4 won't like this either.
> 
> The delta is spreading faster in WA vs in AZ. And yet AZ is more open.


Stop telling people we are open.....getting crowded as it is.  My neck of the woods is full of masked people driving cars, running, riding, hiking etc.  lunacy..


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I don't know why you are insisting that those advocating vaccines as the safer route to gaining immunity are somehow anti-immune system.  Or maybe that's not your argument?  In any case, Florida has the worst death rate per 100,000 people right now of all states, and also are tied for, or the worst in the US, when comparing nursing home death rates.  I don't think these are good numbers.  Maybe Desantis personal finance numbers are looking good?  - he invested in some of the monoclonal antibody pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


You're thinking is one size fits all so......

BTW California has the most deaths with some of the harshest NPI/SIP restrictions.  As far as new deaths go FL is number 36 for fewest new deaths ahead of lockdown happy CA.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I think having legitimate tools to prevent infection and to help people fight infections (including mAb) are helpful.  There is also plenty of history showing the value of vaccines in combatting the spread of infectious disease.  I am hoping that the current ebola vaccine trial goes well.


Tools is plural yes?  That includes monoclonals, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquines, etc.  Yes?  Or is that too liberal for you?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> You're thinking is one size fits all so......
> 
> BTW California has the most deaths with some of the harshest NPI/SIP restrictions.  As far as new deaths go FL is number 36 for fewest new deaths ahead of lockdown happy CA.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us


California just retained the governor that presided over the most deaths and cases in the U.S. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Both Texas and Florida had more people recover from COVID than CA.  Nice job of retaining the #1 COVID Case and Death Governor amidst some of the most restrictive lockdowns.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us.  thanks Barry and Joe for endorsing the grim reaper.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Stop telling people we are open.


Trust me when I tell you there is a large segment of the population including some on this forum that would be too scared to spend much time in AZ.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Mr. Makary is a gastrointestinal surgeon.


And you are dad4?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> By the way and @dad4 won't like this either.
> 
> The delta is spreading faster in WA vs in AZ. And yet AZ is more open.


That’s because AZ infected so many people early in the pandemic.  

If you look carefully at your data, you’ll notice that AZ has almost three times as many deaths per capita as WA.  

You’re even getting close to passing New York.  They’re at 280 per 100K, you’re at 266.    One thousand more deaths and you guys take the lead!!!

Actually, you’ll have a hard time passing Mississippi.  They‘re up at 308 already, and are adding 1.4 per day.  Just goes to show what can happen when your vax rate is down at 42% and you hold the line against those awful mask mandates.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Trust me when I tell you there is a large segment of the population including some on this forum that would be too scared to spend much time in AZ.


We were in the Dove Mountain area two weekends ago. It was beautiful - "only" mid 90's as a high - so not bad. About 10 degrees cooler (October?) would have been perfect.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That’s because AZ infected so many people early in the pandemic.
> 
> If you look carefully at your data, you’ll notice that AZ has almost three times as many deaths per capita as WA.
> 
> You’re even getting close to passing New York.  They’re at 280 per 100K, you’re at 266.    One thousand more deaths and you guys take the lead!!!
> 
> Actually, you’ll have a hard time passing Mississippi.  They‘re up at 308 already, and are adding 1.4 per day.  Just goes to show what can happen when your vax rate is down at 42% and you hold the line against those awful mask mandates.


Way to avoid bringing lockdown centralCali, in 1st place for Cases and deaths.  Gotta love those mask mandates.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> We were in the Dove Mountain area two weekends ago. It was beautiful - "only" mid 90's as a high - so not bad. About 10 degrees cooler (October?) would have been perfect.


Not a bad place to be.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Way to avoid bringing lockdown centralCali, in 1st place for Cases and deaths.  Gotta love those mask mandates.


_*First*_ place?

Not even close.  Every single central valley county has fewer deaths per capita than Arizona.  They’re mostly under 200.  AZ is up at 266.

Give credit where credit is due.  Arizona has more covid deaths per capita than anywhere else west of the Mississippi.  Their only real competition comes from the GOP states in the Southeast, like Louisiana and Mississippi.

I’d include NY and NJ, but they cheated by putting known covid patients directly into nursing homes.  AZ earned their high death rate honestly, by pretending that nothing was wrong.


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area.  Why the difference?


Fear.

False
Expectations 
Appearing 
Real


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> You know, your neighbors at the restaurant probably didn‘t want to catch RSV, either.
> 
> Your attending the restaurant is a great example of why it isn’t enough to say “stay home if you are sick”.   Some selfish people will still go near others even though they have a cough, fever, or other symptoms.


Kinda like that soccer parent that asks if their kid can still play if their Covid test is negative (having gotten tested the day before because the player has a fever?)

Sick is sick & Stupid is stupid.

Wonder how much more of an impact on R there would be if people just stayed home when ill… probably more than all the mask discussion (not “debate”) here.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> In the Marin case she got tested.  She just kept going to work while she waited for the results.


Stupid is stupid.

Worrying that this is a teacher though.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> _*First*_ place?
> 
> Not even close.  Every single central valley county has fewer deaths per capita than Arizona.  They’re mostly under 200.  AZ is up at 266.
> 
> Give credit where credit is due.  Arizona has more covid deaths per capita than anywhere else west of the Mississippi.  Their only real competition comes from the GOP states in the Southeast, like Louisiana and Mississippi.
> 
> I’d include NY and NJ, but they cheated by putting known covid patients directly into nursing homes.  AZ earned their high death rate honestly, by pretending that nothing was wrong.


Totals pal.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That’s because AZ infected so many people early in the pandemic.
> 
> If you look carefully at your data, you’ll notice that AZ has almost three times as many deaths per capita as WA.
> 
> You’re even getting close to passing New York.  They’re at 280 per 100K, you’re at 266.    One thousand more deaths and you guys take the lead!!!
> 
> Actually, you’ll have a hard time passing Mississippi.  They‘re up at 308 already, and are adding 1.4 per day.  Just goes to show what can happen when your vax rate is down at 42% and you hold the line against those awful mask mandates.


If you believe mask work.  And they don’t.  That’s why CA. Leads the nation in total deaths and total cases.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Martin Kulldorff on Twitter:

It is astonishing that universities deny natural immunity from COVID infection; with their #VaccineMandate‘s for the already immune. What’s next? *Universities claiming the earth is flat?*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

UCLA medical-school professor Joseph Ladapo writes wisely in the _Wall Street Journal _about the folly of vaccine mandates. Two slices:

The Covid-19 pandemic has spurred a remarkable stream of scientific investigation,* but that knowledge isn’t translating into better public policy. One example is a zealous pursuit of public mask wearing, a measure that has had, at best, a modest effect on viral transmission.* Or take lockdowns, shown by research to increase deaths overall but nonetheless still considered an acceptable solution. This intellectual disconnect now extends to Covid-19 vaccine mandates. *The policy is promoted as essential for stopping the spread of Covid-19, though the evidence suggests it won’t.

Mandates infringe on personal autonomy, which can lead to political strife and unintended consequences, but they have value in some situations.* In general, however, wise policy making respects the intrinsic value of personal autonomy and seeks the least burdensome path to achieve social gains.
…..
The sensible approach, based on the available data, is to promote vaccines for the purpose of preventing serious illness. *You don’t need a mandate for this—adults can make their own decisions. But mandates will prolong political conflicts over Covid-19, and they are an increasingly unsustainable strategy designed to achieve an unattainable goal.*


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> Kinda like that soccer parent that asks if their kid can still play if their Covid test is negative (having gotten tested the day before because the player has a fever?)
> 
> Sick is sick & Stupid is stupid.
> 
> Wonder how much more of an impact on R there would be if people just stayed home when ill… probably more than all the mask discussion (not “debate”) here.


It’s the same with fever…some common sense is required. If it’s a fever due to a uti or tooth infection you don’t need to quaratine. I remember someone jumped on me for taking the car to be serviced while I ran a uti fever.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Testing should be readily available through schools, I think a more reasonable course of action is not to assume and get tested.


Our district is going to do just that apparently.  Or may even send rapid tests home for families to use.  Not a bad idea -- now if only the antigen tests were more accurate with no symptoms.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> It’s the same with fever…some common sense is required. If it’s a fever due to a uti or tooth infection you don’t need to quaratine. I remember someone jumped on me for taking the car to be serviced while I ran a uti fever.


That is Wisdom..



Stupid is stupid.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Can you imagine the conversation.
> 
> "Listen honey your going to have to get tested for Covid every other day for the next little bit to stay in school"
> "But Mommy I'm afraid to get tested"
> "Well honey then your going to have to stay home from school for a couple weeks"
> "But Mommy I've been really good about wearing my mask at school, that's supposed to protect me. What's the point of wearing a mask then?"
> "Go ask your father"
> 
> Are you smarter than a 5th grader?  Apparently not.


I'm assuming those can be rapid tests and not PCR? If that's the case, it's not super bad as those suckers are easy to do. Problem will be who's going to pay for them. 

What's also weird is the 10-14 day period.  Delta is a much faster moving virus.  In 3-5 days you should know if you have it.   Our schools sit around 7 days with a negative (rapid) on the 5th day. I thought this was extreme, but now looking at your situation it's looking like a cake walk.  Wonder if it's due to our high vax rates.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh yeah, maybe this was elsewhere, but for the Cal UC Irvine game, the Cal ladies wore masks due to Covid Protocol. Lost 1-0 in overtime.


That's really bizarre.  All of the college games I've seen up here are maskless.


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


> Fear.
> 
> False
> Expectations
> Appearing
> Real


Nope


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> Nope


Yup.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> Kinda like that soccer parent that asks if their kid can still play if their Covid test is negative (having gotten tested the day before because the player has a fever?)
> 
> Sick is sick & Stupid is stupid.
> 
> Wonder how much more of an impact on R there would be if people just stayed home when ill… probably more than all the mask discussion (not “debate”) here.


Funny how people make those decisions in the absence of an all knowing government.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1.  If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.
> 
> People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem.  If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free.  Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.


Take The Mask Quiz "Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Randomized trials provide the best available research evidence to inform health-care decisions and are considered the gold standard for determining intervention effects. *But no randomized studies have shown that masks in children are effective. Instead, there are observational studies of uneven quality that reach conflicting conclusions.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I'm curious.  You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines, and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection.  But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines?  The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available.   There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too.  Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt?   Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.


Last week, anonymous posters with the portrait of Stanford University Professor of Medicine Dr. Jay Bhattacharya were plastered on kiosks around the Stanford campus, linking him to COVID deaths in Florida. Even though cumulative age-adjusted COVID mortality is lower in Florida than in most other large states, these smears appeared.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> That's really bizarre.  All of the college games I've seen up here are maskless.


Me too. Of course, Cal had the prior weekend games canceled due to positive tests, I believe. I assume that had something to do with it.


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


> Yup.


Ya got me Noob


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> Ya got me Noob


Nope

.. I’ve got a sense of humor, like you


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Randomized trials provide the best available research evidence to inform health-care decisions and are considered the gold standard for determining intervention effects. *But no randomized studies have shown that masks in children are effective. Instead, there are observational studies of uneven quality that reach conflicting conclusions.*


Link to randomized control trial demonstrating that surgical masks are effective at reducing covid transmission:









						The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh
					






					www.poverty-action.org


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Link to randomized control trial demonstrating that surgical masks are effective at reducing covid transmission:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.poverty-action.org


This is not an individual RCT.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Link to randomized control trial demonstrating that surgical masks are effective at reducing covid transmission:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.poverty-action.org


But I like that they relied on blood testing for anti-bodies as opposed to the opaque PCR during their Cluster Randomized Trial study.  Not the same as RCT.  What's interesting is that case numbers were low prior to the study but they had their highest case spikes post-study.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Link to randomized control trial demonstrating that surgical masks are effective at reducing covid transmission:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.poverty-action.org


Sadly, deaths spiked post-mask intervention too.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Link to randomized control trial demonstrating that surgical masks are effective at reducing covid transmission:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.poverty-action.org


For informed public health policy, it is urgent that @CDCgov quickly do a national random survey to estimate the prevalence of #COVID antibodies and T-cell immunity. By age and state. @CDCDirector

@RWalensky


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> This is not an individual RCT.


No, it is cluster RCT, also very well respected.  Even Grace has stopped pretending that surgical masks don't work.

There is a good reason for using cluster RCT.

Try to design an individual RCT for a device, worn by an infected person, to limit airborne disease transmission.

Keep it ethical.  No forced participation or deliberate exposure of subjects.

And within budget.  Don't assume we can hand out 200,000 cell phones or ankle bracelets to help with contact tracing.

And don't give me some underpowered thing that always returns "answer unclear".  If I wanted that, I'd use a magic 8 ball.

Details please.  If you are asking for it one, describe how to do it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No, it is cluster RCT, also very well respected.  Even Grace has stopped pretending that surgical masks don't work.
> 
> There is a good reason for using cluster RCT.
> 
> Try to design an individual RCT for a device, worn by an infected person, to limit airborne disease transmission.
> 
> Keep it ethical.  No forced participation or deliberate exposure of subjects.
> 
> And within budget.  Don't assume we can hand out 200,000 cell phones or ankle bracelets to help with contact tracing.
> 
> And don't give me some underpowered thing that always returns "answer unclear".  If I wanted that, I'd use a magic 8 ball.
> 
> Details please.  If you are asking for it one, describe how to do it.


a. Against the prime I said that masks might work a little and said they’d primarily be useful indoors, at least on a micro level. Against the delta, particularly on an unvaxxed person, I don’t think they work very well at all
b. On a macro level (talking now county state or national level) I don’t think they make much of an impact. I said maybe 5-15% reduction in transmissions. The Texas county level study previously posted seems to support this conclusion. It’s probably due to masks not being very beneficial in the kinds of places you need to worry about: hospitals, in the home, schools (since long exposure and Ill fitting), airlines; are security theater for indoor dining bars and theaters; and because the use of so many masks is improper or the mask itself is poor.  Putting people in masks in the market or doctors waiting room may help with the odd case or two but if the person wasn’t standing in one place they probably wouldn’t have caught it any way.
c. The Bangladesh study is not very “well respected” except in your Koolaid religious circles. It’s problematic for both the maskers and anti maskers. It didn’t really prove anything beyond there’s some potential there for surgical masks or higher grade masks but the degree of potential is still up there: which takes us back to where we started: masks probably help a little at least pre delta….quite possibly very little
d. If your public policy is dependent on cloth masks post Bangladesh, your public policy is flawed.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> a. Against the prime I said that masks might work a little and said they’d primarily be useful indoors, at least on a micro level. Against the delta, particularly on an unvaxxed person, I don’t think they work very well at all
> b. On a macro level (talking now county state or national level) I don’t think they make much of an impact. I said maybe 5-15% reduction in transmissions. The Texas county level study previously posted seems to support this conclusion. It’s probably due to masks not being very beneficial in the kinds of places you need to worry about: hospitals, in the home, schools (since long exposure and Ill fitting), airlines; are security theater for indoor dining bars and theaters; and because the use of so many masks is improper or the mask itself is poor.  Putting people in masks in the market or doctors waiting room may help with the odd case or two but if the person wasn’t standing in one place they probably wouldn’t have caught it any way.
> c. The Bangladesh study is not very “well respected” except in your Koolaid religious circles. It’s problematic for both the maskers and anti maskers. It didn’t really prove anything beyond there’s some potential there for surgical masks or higher grade masks but the degree of potential is still up there: which takes us back to where we started: masks probably help a little at least pre delta….quite possibly very little
> d. If your public policy is dependent on cloth masks post Bangladesh, your public policy is flawed.


Ps if masks are working so great in the schools what’s the explanation for newsom a kids coming down with covid?  Im sure given the recall and given the prior basketball camp story the newsoms were meticulous in masking their kids.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Ps if masks are working so great in the schools what’s the explanation for newsom a kids coming down with covid?  Im sure given the recall and given the prior basketball camp story the newsoms were meticulous in masking their kids.


Pps this is neither here nor there but the politico story on the kids being positive points out newsom is j&j vaxxed. Given the efficiency of that particular vaccine that’s sort of odd.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. Against the prime I said that masks might work a little and said they’d primarily be useful indoors, at least on a micro level. Against the delta, particularly on an unvaxxed person, I don’t think they work very well at all
> b. On a macro level (talking now county state or national level) I don’t think they make much of an impact. I said maybe 5-15% reduction in transmissions. The Texas county level study previously posted seems to support this conclusion. It’s probably due to masks not being very beneficial in the kinds of places you need to worry about: hospitals, in the home, schools (since long exposure and Ill fitting), airlines; are security theater for indoor dining bars and theaters; and because the use of so many masks is improper or the mask itself is poor.  Putting people in masks in the market or doctors waiting room may help with the odd case or two but if the person wasn’t standing in one place they probably wouldn’t have caught it any way.
> c. The Bangladesh study is not very “well respected” except in your Koolaid religious circles. It’s problematic for both the maskers and anti maskers. It didn’t really prove anything beyond there’s some potential there for surgical masks or higher grade masks but the degree of potential is still up there: which takes us back to where we started: masks probably help a little at least pre delta….quite possibly very little
> d. If your public policy is dependent on cloth masks post Bangladesh, your public policy is flawed.


sigh.  Still at it?

No, against prime you said masks do nothing.

Then against alpha, as the evidence built up, you said maybe they help a little.

Then with an enormous RCT demonstrating that you’re full of shit, you say “well, they might have worked back then, but delta is different.”.   

The scientific community has moved on from this, Grace.  There is a broad concensus that masks reduce but do not eliminate covid transmission.

You can keep telling fools to skip masks.  And Dizzy will keep telling them to skip vaccines.  Many of those fools will believe you.  In your own small way, you will help contribute to the deaths of some poorly educated and poorly informed people, and those with whom they associate.

Why you wish to do this is beyond me.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *sigh.  Still at it?*


Sigh, 3:05am.  You got problems dad.  Get some sleep bro.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> sigh.  Still at it?
> 
> No, against prime you said masks do nothing.
> 
> Then against alpha, as the evidence built up, you said maybe they help a little.
> 
> Then with an enormous RCT demonstrating that you’re full of shit, you say “well, they might have worked back then, but delta is different.”.
> 
> The scientific community has moved on from this, Grace.  There is a broad concensus that masks reduce but do not eliminate covid transmission.
> 
> You can keep telling fools to skip masks.  And Dizzy will keep telling them to skip vaccines.  Many of those fools will believe you.  In your own small way, you will help contribute to the deaths of some poorly educated and poorly informed people, and those with whom they associate.
> 
> Why you wish to do this is beyond me.


Sigh. The religion again.  Still at it.

you can look at the record. I know it’s the tendency of religious people to look at apostates harshly but I did say against the prime “masks help a little” at least on a micro view basis. You’ve never understood the distinction of the micro and macro basis which is why you assumed people would just mask in their houses.

then you grasp onto a rct like the other religious heads that was deeply flawed in both directions.  First you keep clinging to the cloth masks even though the study showed no statistical impact. Then you cling to the surgical masks even though the study only showed a statistical impact on the old.  Then you ignore the other problems with the study such as that it has distance coupled in there, enforcement was coupled in there (and it reverted back once removed) and with the compliance it had it showed a very small change and that it was mostly the pre delta wave without a widespread outbreak

you see I did science.  I saw the study and said hey this is interesting.It has some very pro and some anti mask stuff.  Here’s what we should test next

you did religion. You said oh this study is perfect and it’s a gold standard!  And by the way I’m just going to ignore the parts I don’t like such as about cloth masks!  And then I’m going to ignore the Texas study that comes out near the next day!

and yet you are there clothing yourself in the shield of science.In your own small way you are an essential part of the problem of the misery going on these two years and have contributed to a lot of human suffering for the sake of your own hypochondria. May I remind you: n95s in markets, once weekly takeout, don’t go to school or work with a cough (even if you know what it is and it lasts a year).


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Sigh. The religion again.  Still at it.
> 
> you can look at the record. I know it’s the tendency of religious people to look at apostates harshly but I did say against the prime “masks help a little” at least on a micro view basis. You’ve never understood the distinction of the micro and macro basis which is why you assumed people would just mask in their houses.
> 
> then you grasp onto a rct like the other religious heads that was deeply flawed in both directions.  First you keep clinging to the cloth masks even though the study showed no statistical impact. Then you cling to the surgical masks even though the study only showed a statistical impact on the old.  Then you ignore the other problems with the study such as that it has distance coupled in there, enforcement was coupled in there (and it reverted back once removed) and with the compliance it had it showed a very small change and that it was mostly the pre delta wave without a widespread outbreak
> 
> you see I did science.  I saw the study and said hey this is interesting.It has some very pro and some anti mask stuff.  Here’s what we should test next
> 
> you did religion. You said oh this study is perfect and it’s a gold standard!  And by the way I’m just going to ignore the parts I don’t like such as about cloth masks!  And then I’m going to ignore the Texas study that comes out near the next day!
> 
> and yet you are there clothing yourself in the shield of science.In your own small way you are an essential part of the problem of the misery going on these two years and have contributed to a lot of human suffering for the sake of your own hypochondria. May I remind you: n95s in markets, once weekly takeout, don’t go to school or work with a cough (even if you know what it is and it lasts a year).


Ps if you look at the record you’ll see that y’all were coming down harshly on me for telling you masks only help a little and were not enough to break or bend curves while y’all were claiming masks could control the pandemic, make it go away or that masks were better than vaccines. You all have moved to my way of thinking (no outdoor masks, better masks, most transmissions in the home, masks help best for short term exposures, no masks on kids and the handicapped) more than I have to you.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Sigh. The religion again.  Still at it.
> you did religion. You said oh this study is perfect and it’s a gold standard!  And by the way I’m just going to ignore the parts I don’t like such as about cloth masks!  And then I’m going to ignore the Texas study that comes out near the next day!


Excellent insight on the religion analogy Grace T.  Dad, Espola, Husker, Golden Golden Gate, NoCal Dad, EOTL, the Long Game fella, Messy and others are freaking brainwashed and 100% in a cult.  I'm starting a side gig as a Professional Cult Deprogrammer & Holistic Healer.  These people really need help Grace.  I would love to chat with you and Bruddah IZ offline to talk about a way to get my idea off the ground.  I care for all people and I know you do. Espola & EOTL is the David Karesh/Jim Jones cult leader of this sect of a group and I dont see any hope for them.  They are drunk on political kool aide.  I actually want to save Dad first.   Thoughts?


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> That’s because AZ infected so many people early in the pandemic.
> 
> If you look carefully at your data, you’ll notice that AZ has almost three times as many deaths per capita as WA.
> 
> You’re even getting close to passing New York.  They’re at 280 per 100K, you’re at 266.    One thousand more deaths and you guys take the lead!!!
> 
> Actually, you’ll have a hard time passing Mississippi.  They‘re up at 308 already, and are adding 1.4 per day.  Just goes to show what can happen when your vax rate is down at 42% and you hold the line against those awful mask mandates.


The part you miss and CONSTANTLY refuse to address is the following. 

MS and UT have about the same cases. MS is about the highest deaths. UT about the lowest. 

CA has similar case loads to a variety of other states. Some have far higher deaths, some are about even, some are much lower. 

Etc. 

You just look at deaths and go...1+1=states should have locked down more. IE you can do math fine. You seem to not look at and try to analyze data as to why. 

MS has the highest obesity in the nation and that generally is in a certain population that is already rather unhealthy. UT doesn't have that issue. 

AZ has like CA cases similar to a variety of other states who all have very different deaths. AZ is a retirement state with a large Indian population. 

NM a state who followed CA in many aspects and was even stricter in some has case rates similar to CA but far higher deaths. NM also has a large Indian population. 

You just look at deaths and say yep it is gov intervention or lack of it that is why deaths are at a certain level. You go silent (as in never once have spoken) on the fact that many states have similar case loads but very different deaths. That should tell you that it is something else at play. Percentage of older people in a state, overall health in a state (or within certain groups), Indian populations, etc. The reason you go silent is because you CANNOT then rely on well they didn't mask, or they didn't social distance. 

This is the same thing that has happened in other countries. Serbia has less than half the deaths of Belgium with around the same cases, etc. As you look around you see plenty of countries with similar cases but rather different deaths per million. 

As a math guy you like 1+2 = gov solutions work!

You fail to look at the data and say well it appears something (many) seem to drive what is going on. 

It is kind of like your mask thing. Despite countries with high compliance vs those with less, we see the waves all hit the countries at roughly the same time and act in similar manners. You cling to masks saying they work. Real world data shows the virus spreads in a similar manner around the world and the waves all happen at roughly the same time.

This also gets back to your fundamental problem in interpreting data. You constant solution(s) are blanket in nature. Long ago we learned who is actually at risk. Your preferred solutions target everyone. You yourself are a perfect example of knowing math and failing to look at data. You are healthy and young and vaxxed and yet you still walk around with a mask. It appears you also do this outside just walking around. You claim surgical masks do the trick. And yet wear n95s. In other words you have not looked at the data and realized you have little to no risk. Your actions show a person who believes you are at a lot higher level of risk.

In other words a lack of understanding the data available. 

Which is the same you seem to do with state/country data.


----------



## Grace T.

Roh roh.  This paper says the virus is mutating rapidly and will likely escape antibody responses.  In other words it acts like flu, H3N2, not like chicken pox (as Biden/Fauci/Gottlieb had hoped).  If correct, it means boosters aren't going to get us out of it: either you have to go to the English approach and have everyone get more broad and rounded natural immunity against all the various proteins, or you are going to have to mandate vaxx boosters in perpetuity (which doesn't seem to be as easy as initially promised since Pfizer some 5 months later still doesn't have a Delta booster let alone the other 3 and let alone the other vaccines which STILL don't have approval)









						Rapid and parallel adaptive mutations in spike S1 drive clade success in SARS-CoV-2
					

Despite the appearance of variant SARS-CoV-2 viruses with altered receptorbinding or antigenic phenotypes, traditional methods for detecting adaptive evolution from sequence data do not pick up strong signals of positive selection. Here, we present a new method for identifying adaptive evolution...




					www.biorxiv.org


----------



## crush

In other news, watch for the official audit report next 9/24 in AZ at 1pm.  It's public hearing open to the public.  I guess Maricopa made a deal and I hear the routers are being handed over?  Also, the over 200,000 sealed indictments are now going to be unsealed, one at a time for the drip affect. DNC lead attorney for HRC was the first drip to drop.  That Elias fella already confessed to doctoring a FISA app to a judge about spying on t back in the day.  I hear only 199,999 more to go.  That's why Camp Justice just built a new court house down at the Bay. Amazing how you can;t even find the news about this at big news corps.  Get the popcorn out everyone.  Always error on the side of truth and choose wisely.  The ALL SEEING EYE is watching your every move and every thought is recorded.  No escape, nowhere to run and for sure nowhere to hide.  The scamdemic is a cover folks.  I told you all many, many times.  Everyday I wake up I hope some you will wake your asses up but no, we do this everyday and play round and a round we go with the jabber doo, mask and testing and boosters.  FDA just hit Pfizer hard btw.  It's happening everyone.  Choose the truth and the truth will set you free


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> either you have to go to the English approach and have everyone get more broad and rounded natural immunity against all the various proteins,


Not just the English.

Sweden has followed the approach. Denmark just said no more restrictions (health minister said we just need to live with it), Singapore has given up.

You will see more and more countries give up to reality.

It is endemic, it mutates, and we cannot go around restricting daily lives, biz, school, when the reality is those measures will not stop the virus.

There is a new family on the block that moved in 2 yrs ago. We don't like the family, but they are here to stay.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Not just the English.
> 
> Sweden has followed the approach. Denmark just said no more restrictions (health minister said we just need to live with it), Singapore has given up.
> 
> You will see more and more countries give up to reality.
> 
> It is endemic, it mutates, and we cannot go around restricting daily lives, biz, school, when the reality is those measures will not stop the virus.
> 
> There is a new family on the block that moved in 2 yrs ago. We don't like the family, but they are here to stay.


Hound, excellent takes bro on the reality side of things.  It's as plane as day to folks like me and you.  I love you man and I appreciate all you do to shed truth on the darkness.  Reality is hard to see for some when their brainwashed and live for a cult.  My buddy Colin's mom is attorney and woke as anyone can be woke.  He tries to wake her up with facts and truth and she still is sold on Joe and feels all this could be fixed if EVERYONE was compliant and obedient and just take the two jabs and any boosters that come with them and do whatever Dr. Fraud and Bill say.  This lady has a law degree Hound and is very academic and a proud pandemic believer like Dad.  Colin asked me to meet with his mom out of desperation. He's trying to arrange the intervention as i write so I can try and deprogram her and save her from the cult.  All my expenses are covered.  I just ask for a donation or whatever they feel is warranted after we get her help and out.  It's starts with a surprise "attack talk"  set up by her son.  I have to verbally get her attention and get her to stay without her feeling forced to stay.  Any good deprogrammer will tell you always tell the person their free to leave.  If she feels the love by her kids and crush, we play all the videos and try to get her to the light.  We have her suitcase all ready to go if she agrees to the 30 day impatient care, no tv or internet programing from that Mocking Bird.  It's actually going to be outside at a camp site, TBA at a later date.  We will work on the mind, body and the soul.  Holistic Healing is at the core of the heart chakra and is key to a new life.  Sacred Ceremonies will be the thing peole will look for in the future.  Were entering the age of Aquarius Hound.  Make love, not war bro


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> You go silent (as in never once have spoken) on the fact that many states have similar case loads but very different deaths.


Actually I take that back. Early on when discussing UT and the low deaths despite being open you opined that they didn't drink that much up there. That was during your bars=bad days. 

So my apologies.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Roh roh.  This paper says the virus is mutating rapidly and will likely escape antibody responses.  In other words it acts like flu, H3N2, not like chicken pox (as Biden/Fauci/Gottlieb had hoped).  If correct, it means boosters aren't going to get us out of it: either you have to go to the English approach and have everyone get more broad and rounded natural immunity against all the various proteins, or you are going to have to mandate vaxx boosters in perpetuity (which doesn't seem to be as easy as initially promised since Pfizer some 5 months later still doesn't have a Delta booster let alone the other 3 and let alone the other vaccines which STILL don't have approval)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rapid and parallel adaptive mutations in spike S1 drive clade success in SARS-CoV-2
> 
> 
> Despite the appearance of variant SARS-CoV-2 viruses with altered receptorbinding or antigenic phenotypes, traditional methods for detecting adaptive evolution from sequence data do not pick up strong signals of positive selection. Here, we present a new method for identifying adaptive evolution...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.biorxiv.org


That is not what the paper says.  

“The virus is mutating” is in the paper.   The rest of the above post is nothing more than Grace speculation.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The part you miss and CONSTANTLY refuse to address is the following.
> 
> MS and UT have about the same cases. MS is about the highest deaths. UT about the lowest.
> 
> CA has similar case loads to a variety of other states. Some have far higher deaths, some are about even, some are much lower.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> You just look at deaths and go...1+1=states should have locked down more. IE you can do math fine. You seem to not look at and try to analyze data as to why.
> 
> MS has the highest obesity in the nation and that generally is in a certain population that is already rather unhealthy. UT doesn't have that issue.
> 
> AZ has like CA cases similar to a variety of other states who all have very different deaths. AZ is a retirement state with a large Indian population.
> 
> NM a state who followed CA in many aspects and was even stricter in some has case rates similar to CA but far higher deaths. NM also has a large Indian population.
> 
> You just look at deaths and say yep it is gov intervention or lack of it that is why deaths are at a certain level. You go silent (as in never once have spoken) on the fact that many states have similar case loads but very different deaths. That should tell you that it is something else at play. Percentage of older people in a state, overall health in a state (or within certain groups), Indian populations, etc. The reason you go silent is because you CANNOT then rely on well they didn't mask, or they didn't social distance.
> 
> This is the same thing that has happened in other countries. Serbia has less than half the deaths of Belgium with around the same cases, etc. As you look around you see plenty of countries with similar cases but rather different deaths per million.
> 
> As a math guy you like 1+2 = gov solutions work!
> 
> You fail to look at the data and say well it appears something (many) seem to drive what is going on.
> 
> It is kind of like your mask thing. Despite countries with high compliance vs those with less, we see the waves all hit the countries at roughly the same time and act in similar manners. You cling to masks saying they work. Real world data shows the virus spreads in a similar manner around the world and the waves all happen at roughly the same time.
> 
> This also gets back to your fundamental problem in interpreting data. You constant solution(s) are blanket in nature. Long ago we learned who is actually at risk. Your preferred solutions target everyone. You yourself are a perfect example of knowing math and failing to look at data. You are healthy and young and vaxxed and yet you still walk around with a mask. It appears you also do this outside just walking around. You claim surgical masks do the trick. And yet wear n95s. In other words you have not looked at the data and realized you have little to no risk. Your actions show a person who believes you are at a lot higher level of risk.
> 
> In other words a lack of understanding the data available.
> 
> Which is the same you seem to do with state/country data.


If we are discussing data, do we agree that the Bangladesh RCT demonstrated that surgical masks reduce covid transmission?

Or do you just want to look at mismatched pairs of states which you selected based on some right wing website?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> That is not what the paper says.
> 
> “The virus is mutating” is in the paper.   The rest of the above post is nothing more than Grace speculation.


Hey sleepy head.  Only 4 hours of sleep?  Drinking again?  Dad, please get some help.  Your 4 kids need you, not the forum.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That is not what the paper says.
> 
> “The virus is mutating” is in the paper.   The rest of the above post is nothing more than Grace speculation.


The first sentence is the summary (again reading comprehension). The rest is critical thinking. If you look at the authors going on Twitter right now, they are going down a similar path and even call out h3n2 by name.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Not just the English.
> 
> Sweden has followed the approach. Denmark just said no more restrictions (health minister said we just need to live with it), Singapore has given up.
> 
> You will see more and more countries give up to reality.
> 
> It is endemic, it mutates, and we cannot go around restricting daily lives, biz, school, when the reality is those measures will not stop the virus.
> 
> There is a new family on the block that moved in 2 yrs ago. We don't like the family, but they are here to stay.


Pretty sure the English approach is predicated on vaccinations - it would be a good thing if the US followed suit



Detailed analysis

Covid vaccine: How many people in the UK have been vaccinated so far? - BBC News


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Not just the English.
> 
> Sweden has followed the approach. Denmark just said no more restrictions (health minister said we just need to live with it), Singapore has given up.
> 
> You will see more and more countries give up to reality.
> 
> It is endemic, it mutates, and we cannot go around restricting daily lives, biz, school, when the reality is those measures will not stop the virus.
> 
> There is a new family on the block that moved in 2 yrs ago. We don't like the family, but they are here to stay.


Here you go for Sweden, again with the vaccinations!



Statistics for vaccination against COVID-19 — Public Health Agency of Sweden (folkhalsomyndigheten.se)


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Pretty sure the English approach is predicated on vaccinations - it would be a good thing if the US followed suit


I think most of us would agree with that, particularly if you are 30 and over and have not had it yet.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> If we are discussing data, do we agree that the Bangladesh RCT demonstrated that surgical masks reduce covid transmission?


There seems to be quite a bit of back and forth on that article. It isn't cut and dry in the least since a lot of other factors were involved. It seems at best they found a slight benefit in certain age groups. 

In other words it is nothing to rest your hat on. 

Nor is the study to rest ones hat on if they think masks are useless.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Pretty sure the English approach is predicated on vaccinations


If you think I am arguing AGAINST vaccinations you are incorrect. 

They (the countries) are however vaxxed and move on. They are NOT mandating vaccines which is something I am strongly against. The first main reason is we don't have any long term data on potential bad side affects. It is irresponsible to mandate vaxes to everyone when you don't know if there are at risk people who would be better off not taking the vax. 

So I am not arguing against the vax. 

I am pointing out however that countries are starting to move on. In the case of the US the at risk groups have been vaxxed at a very high rate. 

They talk about 80-100 million people not being vaxxed in the US. I would lay money a rather large percentage of those already have antibodies against the virus. Another large percentage are the young who have no risk of covid.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

I see everybody is up and at it bright and early.  Discipline.  My wife was telling me, "You can't wrap your head around the idea that some people just like to argue can you". I guess she's right. 

Anyway, I'll link this study which is really well done and interesting.  Has a bit of something for everybody on the infodemicized "infection better" vs "vaxx better" spectrum.  Sorta misses the whole point of a vaccine but whatever.  Gist of the study is looking at convalescing C19 patients, sample size ~60.  Some get mRNA vaxxed after C19, some don't.  The cohort uniformly has a robust acquired immune response as you'd expect.  The thing need to know to understand the biology is that there are these structures that form inside the body after antigen stimulation that continue to fine tune the antibody response for at least several months, longer in many cases.   Basically, within the structures the relevant antigens (S protein in this case being the main one) that stimulate antibody production are sequestered, and continue to be presented to the antibody producing cells.  This causes the antibody producing cells to continue to divide and become hyper-mutable.  In this way, cells that have already been selected to produce useful antibodies continue to undergo further selection for even better antibodies that have an improved ability to neutralize the antigen (so in this case, anti-S antibodies that are even more potent at blocking viral cell entry).  

The main finding of the study is this unexpected synergism between infection and vaxx.  C19 convalescents who get the vaxx show this apparent super stimulation of the antibody fine tuning process, leading to cranking out some really potent neutralizing antibodies that get locked down into B cell memory.  The authors speculate, in essence, that vaxxination stimulates a natural evolutionary process within the immune system to an extent that it can now keep pace with the viral evolutionary process throwing out new variants.  Perhaps even to the point where there may be immunity that covers even unborn C-viruses that have yet to recombine and emerge from zoonotic resevoirs (provided they still target Ace2 for cell entry; MERS doesn't target Ace2 for instance).









						Naturally enhanced neutralizing breadth against SARS-CoV-2 one year after infection - Nature
					

Antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 continue to evolve 6 to 12 months after infection in patients who have recovered from COVID-19, increasing in potency and breadth with time.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Desert Hound

This one is for @Grace T. . and her restaurant comment a day or so ago.

It explains how the virus works in restaurants.


----------



## Desert Hound

I think it may control all women. My wife is from Mexico and loves this time of year when she can get Pumpkin Spice flavored coffee.


----------



## Desert Hound

Since it is Sat. Here are some more.


----------



## Desert Hound

This one hits close to home


----------



## Desert Hound

And finally...


----------



## crush

Check this out Hound.  Some of my pals are acting like cult members.


----------



## Roadrunner

met61 said:


> ...also, you need to try and keep up...the CDC has "CONveeeeniently" removed the term immunity from it's definition of vaccine.


What do you think a vaccine is?   How do you think it relates to one's immune system?


----------



## Roadrunner

M


Grace T. said:


> Yes, some of the law offices are open but the ones I know that are open are on a "flex" schedule.  You can come in if you have an essential purpose, or there's a rotation schedule in place, but I'm not aware of any of the large ones being fully open (mostly just the smaller ones).  It's the same with the talent agencies BTW.


Maybe some places are doing flex schedules because they are good business decisions.  If some aspects of remote work were effective and beneficial for the goals of the business, why not incorporate the good?


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> I think most of us would agree with that, particularly if you are 30 and over and have not had it yet.


16+ is what the UK & Sweden are pushing


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> If you think I am arguing AGAINST vaccinations you are incorrect.
> 
> They (the countries) are however vaxxed and move on. They are NOT mandating vaccines which is something I am strongly against. The first main reason is we don't have any long term data on potential bad side affects. It is irresponsible to mandate vaxes to everyone when you don't know if there are at risk people who would be better off not taking the vax.
> 
> So I am not arguing against the vax.
> 
> I am pointing out however that countries are starting to move on. In the case of the US the at risk groups have been vaxxed at a very high rate.
> 
> They talk about 80-100 million people not being vaxxed in the US. I would lay money a rather large percentage of those already have antibodies against the virus. Another large percentage are the young who have no risk of covid.


My point is that a key KPI for them is vaccinations, not testing everyone to see if they've had it or not.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> Tools is plural yes?  That includes monoclonals, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquines, etc.  Yes?  Or is that too liberal for you?


Note the word legitimate in front of tools.  I would not include ivermectin or hydroxy chloroquine among treatments that have been proven to be effective.


----------



## Roadrunner

Bruddah IZ said:


> If you believe mask work.  And they don’t.  That’s why CA. Leads the nation in total deaths and total cases.


Total deaths and cases are going to be higher in California than some other states because we have a much larger population.  Entire states have populations equivalent to some of our cities.  But you know that.  If you want to compare impact of having tools like vaccines, then comparisons over time are also informative.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> 16+ is what the UK & Sweden are pushing


I think there’s reasonable room for disagreement if under 30 or have had. Idon’t think there’s a whole lot of room for disagreement if neither condition met.


----------



## Grace T.

Roadrunner said:


> M
> 
> Maybe some places are doing flex schedules because they are good business decisions.  If some aspects of remote work were effective and beneficial for the goals of the business, why not incorporate the good?


That flex schedule would look like…come and go if you need to but you only really need to be here for mandatory meetings including all department meetings.  This looks like: we need to keep capacity numbers down so only come in on your assigned times and no meetings…if you remain anxious you are welcome to stay home.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Roadrunner said:


> Note the word legitimate in front of tools.  I would not include ivermectin or hydroxy chloroquine among treatments that have been proven to be effective.


If we're talking proven tools against Cov-2 don't forgot one of these babies.  Once the goosenecks meet in the middle you know you're cured.  Little petroleum jelly and good to go.  









						169.0US $ |Fiber Optic Microscope Dual Pipe Gooseneck Illuminator w/ Adjustable Brightness Halogen Bulb + 24V 150W 3200K Quartz|Microscopes|   - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> I think there’s reasonable room for disagreement if under 30 or have had. Idon’t think there’s a whole lot of room for disagreement if neither condition met.


I'm not sure who you are reasonably disagreeing with tbh, but in the absence of mandatory testing for anyone not vaccinated 16+, which nobody is doing to my knowledge, the consensus of disparate governments, based on their independent medical advice, is vaccinate 16+. England and Sweden have been touted by you, and others, as a good/better approach and I am just pointing out that their approach is predicated on a vaccination strategy 16+, which they appear to be very successful at, and more power to them.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Note the word legitimate in front of tools.  I would not include ivermectin or hydroxy chloroquine among treatments that have been proven to be effective.


That’s fine. It was EUA’D pre-vax in the absence of.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> Total deaths and cases are going to be higher in California than some other states because we have a much larger population.  Entire states have populations equivalent to some of our cities.  But you know that.  If you want to compare impact of having tools like vaccines, then comparisons over time are also informative.


Those comparisons never involved mandated NPI/SPI’s.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I'm not sure who you are reasonably disagreeing with tbh, but in the absence of mandatory testing for anyone not vaccinated 16+, which nobody is doing to my knowledge, the consensus of disparate governments, based on their independent medical advice, is vaccinate 16+. England and Sweden have been touted by you, and others, as a good/better approach and I am just pointing out that their approach is predicated on a vaccination strategy 16+, which they appear to be very successful at, and more power to them.


I agree....I just think there should be an exemption if you can prove you've had it.


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439215057624354817


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> Hey sleepy head.  Only 4 hours of sleep?  Drinking again?  Dad, please get some help.  Your 4 kids need you, not the forum.


Man Crush, why do you got to take it personal?  I'm not sure what's worse, the Qanon folks or the their enablers (you know who you are).


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Hey sleepy head.  Only 4 hours of sleep?  Drinking again?  Dad, please get some help.  Your 4 kids need you, not the forum.


Not so bad as that.  Woke up at 3 am, noticed son was playing minecraft way after curfew.  stayed up extra 1/2 hour to make sure he actually fell asleep and didn’t just wait me out.  

Then crashed again.  like now.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules.  Clearly, they do.
> 
> I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people.  We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.


Some people are always looking for excuses. trump is a standard bearer for them. They will deny him while expounding on ideas exclusive to him and his ilk. Interesting combination of denial and strict loyalty. “But he’s not president anymore! TRUMP 2024!”


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Not so bad as that.  Woke up at 3 am, noticed son was playing minecraft way after curfew.  stayed up extra 1/2 hour to make sure he actually fell asleep and didn’t just wait me out.
> 
> Then crashed again.  like now.


I let my son play all night long and I slept like big baby.  I woke at 3:05am this morning and the moon was staying at me in the face with a message.  I felt the true love of mother earth and fell back to sleep until now. These videos games are destroying boys before they can become warriors, moo!  My son now blames me for enabling him all those years with games for Christmas.  I kid you not dad, kid is now taking on how I parented him.  His pal quit the Army because it was way to hard on him.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Man Crush, why do you got to take it personal?  I'm not sure what's worse, the Qanon folks or the their enablers (you know who you are).


Wat Fly man basically told everyone on here I go to bathhouse bro.  I am not holding back anymore.  Here's the deal that you and i can't deny.  Something is going on around the world.  I see a movement, you call them Qanon or whatever they call those dudes.  I only care about kids and woman.  The men like you & dad can take care of yourselves.  The kids ((who want to be born but.....) need our help.  Girls and woman have been treated real bad in the world.  Can we both agree men have been lousy leaders?  Happy Sunday NoCalDad.


----------



## crush

Today is Sunday "Bitch" Slap day.  Go ahead and give someone a slap in da face for being a complete asshole to little kids like Mason.  I swear to all of you here, if I were a little kid and some teacher tried to put a fucking mask on my face outside October 31st, I would have punched and kicked that teacher so hard in a baby crush temper tantrum.  "Teachers, leave us kids alone."  "This will keep you safe" she says.  BS!!!  Seriously, WTF thinks this is ok?  Child abuse, MOO!!!









						Every  day  children  like  this  are  being SYSTEMATICALLY ABUSED at schools and  daycare  centers.
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

More bitch slap news.  Listen DS's, its game on losers.  Listen to this guys 2 minute video. My buddy's wife sells for big Pharm.  Last year she went from $250,000 in 2019 to $350,000 in 2020.  This year she is on pace for $450,000.  Gee George, I wonder why she has big bonus money and a brand new $2,000,000 home?









						Respiratory therapist severely ill after vaccination! - Don't get the stab! Don't do it!
					

Video taken from Impfschaden Corona.  Telegram: https://t.me/CoronaImpfschaden




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Rectal bleeding is also happening to folks who took the jabs.  Most are too embarrassed or scared to share about the blood in the stool, but it's bad you guys.


----------



## met61




----------



## crush

MY SON RECEIVED THE COVID VACCINE AND DIED A FEW DAYS LATER
					

.




					www.bitchute.com
				




RIP little guy   This dad is not like our resident Dad WHO goes around with Espola and others promoting the Jabs, plus mask for little guys like Mason or the Cal soccer team plus boosters forever.  9/23 is coming soon fellas.  You know WHO has to celebrates his evil Holiday. 9/24 will be a big boom of audit information.  Also, more of 199,999 indictments that need to be unsealed will start the unsealing process with a drip campaign by the Bull.  This is going to knock some socks off of some stupid people WHO thought they were right because people WHO think their always right are arrogant losers WHO hate to lose and will cheat to win, no matter the cost to others hard work.  Chet the Cheater and Larry the Liar will soon be taken off planet earth.  This is going to be biblical.  Crush was 100% born for this moment in time.  This is for sure the best time to be alive if you can see what I see.  Choose the light, it's right!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Bill Maher on a large chunk of democrats thinking the hospitalization rate for COVID is 50%


----------



## Grace T.

This is child abuse.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439209826668658688


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This is child abuse.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439209826668658688


I will also say it must be super hard to be a teacher with little guys and little girls who think for themselves and think these mask are criminal at best and evil at worse.  I want to extend grace to all of us.  If I were a teacher however, I would have been fired already.  This is like my buddy who manages a union grocery store.  Dude has to be the Vax and Mask enforcer with zero heath training.  This style of enforcement in the wrong hands is a recipe for disaster.  Teachers are just being told what to do Grace T.  My friend is still not teaching and at home still on blood thinner.  We spoke last night and he got more honest with me about the intimidation and the retaliation fear he felt would come from his boss lady if he didnt get jabbed.  He say's she is 100% a bitch and was 100% telling him in a round bout way to get his jabs or I will reassign you a desk job or way way out in SB.  Only 6 years left to retire and he's at home keeping his leg up.  He loves teaching too and a super great guy.  I told him to hang in there and learn from this mistake of going against your true gut feelings, which he says were, "I dont feel good about these shots but I dont want to be singled out by boss lady who yields power over my lively hood and happiness and I dont like to rock the boat."


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Bill Maher on a large chunk of democrats thinking the hospitalization rate for COVID is 50%


Dude hid his pot under his nuts????  I sure hope Bill didnt share his budds from his nuts with his buddies,  That takes hairy budds to whole new level and way to sick for my mind.  It does remind me of a story of my bud Brian back in the day.  He scored some skunk budd from NoCal.  These were huge spears and smelt like a real skunk.  Anyway, Brian left the spears in his closet.  His mom and step daddy came home early from a trip ((they were super rich and step dad was an asshole and super tough love guy)) and they called pest control because they were convinced their had a skunk in the house and in Brians huge room somewhere.  Brian got home and pest control guy was all smiles and said the skunk got out.  Brian gave him a nice budd ((from his closet)) for keeping it on the low.  Later in life, his step dad kicked his ass out of the house.  Long story but dude punched Brian in a hail of a fit of rage and told him to leave.   He found out after step dad died died that he was abusing his mother as well.  Today, their both doing great.  Brian is a farmer up in Oregon and is cranking the legal budd business  His mom is bookkepper......no joke


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I got some advice for all of you and it's done wonders for my healing.  Make love, not war over jabber doos and bull crap mask shit.  This is causing so much division in relationships that couples are NOT coming together like they should.  People are fighting over the most ridiculous and trivial things that are just lame and make the idea of any kind of romance shitty.  If you have someone to call, make that call and get the true healing you need.  I figured out this secret with my Honey Bee Queen wife.  She has helped me so much and I in return help her   We need sexual healing like at no other time.  This is how you truly heal you guys.  I got with old pal last week and he was down & out and full of depression and fear.  I weighed him in and he weighed 287 pounds.  He wants 177 like me.   Step 1, stop eating meat I told him.  He asked if he could skip to step #2 and I said, "no."  I told him if you want to look like me and have someone all over you like the olds days, then start with the center of your gut.  I can;t help anyone if they eat the meat that is being served today.  I wont show pics of the abuse, but chewing on that shit is not going to fix you.  I haven't told him about no booze yet.  He likes his booze.....


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> View attachment 11685


Why Does the CDC Recognize Natural Immunity for Chicken Pox but Not Covid? BY PAUL ELIAS ALEXANDER SEPTEMBER 17, 2021

Then can CDC Director Rochelle Walensky (and Dr. Anthony Fauci of the NIN/NIAID) explain to us why if we have had COVID-19 and recovered, we still should be forced to have a vaccine for COVID? *Can she begin by explaining why the pretense by the CDC that natural immunity does not exist for COVID-19 or is not credible or important, when the best science shows that it is even more superior than the narrow focused ‘spike-specific’ sub-optimal vaccine immunity? 

Fauci was asked the question point blank and said: “I don’t have a really firm answer for you on that.” That’s an irresponsible answer that flies in the face of all known immunological science. 

The massive numbers of persons who have been double-vaccinated and even triple vaccinated in Israel shows that the vaccine is not achieving what exposure and recovery achieves.* As Martin Kulldorff writes, “vaccinated individuals had 27 times higher risk of symptomatic COVID infection compared to those with natural immunity from prior COVID disease,” as a summary of the important study. 

*We know of persons who recovered from SARS-CoV-1 in 2003 (Le Bert et al. 2020) still have immunity 18 years later. Researchers have even uncovered long-lived immunity to the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic virus, 100 years later. 

What is different for COVID-19? Why the different standard or application of core immunology or virology principles? Some say the guidance on Covid is purely political and has zero to do with science or evidence, just politics.*

Logically, we do not layer vaccine immunity on top of robust naturally acquired immunity. *Why has the CDC and NIH not allowed serological testing for antibodies or T-cell immunity testing to be used as an indication of COVID immunity, and thus not candidacy for the vaccine? *Why does the CDC’s website make sense when it comes to chickenpox, mumps, and rubella but not on Covid-19?


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439215057624354817


... they're tired of being played.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> This is child abuse.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439209826668658688


That's disturbing and anyone that thinks this is acceptable needs to have their head examined.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> expounding on ideas exclusive to him and his ilk.


Like?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Like?


Did you just come out of a long coma?


----------



## met61

...you're being played.


----------



## Multi Sport

Keepermom2 said:


> The company marketed a drug that wasn't approved for the marketed use.  The vaccine and related dosage has already been studied and *peer reviewed *as being safe and effective for the intended use. See the New England Journal of Medicine for the *peer reviewed studies* that includes the effectiveness of the vaccine against the Delta variant.


Peer reviewed? Ok. What about the Peer Reviewed studies that are contrary to the ones that were chosen? You are aware of those, correct? 

And since you are a woman...









						COVID-19 vaccine's impact on menstrual cycles needs to be investigated after 30,000 women report changes, says top scientist
					

Dr. Victoria Male, from Imperial College London, says the changes are safe and short-lived, but it's crucial to find out why it happens.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I can't help but point out that again, as usual, you are using an unproven assertion to further later arguments.
> 
> Do you think no one is going to notice?  Do you yourself know that you are doing it?


Bubble babble, “lots of people are saying”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> This part --
> 
> I fear that mandating vaccines will have the unintended consequence of increasing vaccine hesitancy. As any parent or teacher knows, when you order people to do something, they are motivated to do the opposite. Some employees will submit fraudulent vaccine records. Others will simply refuse to get their shots, and dare employers to fire them. And countless state governments, employers and employees will go to court to halt this program.
> 
> Predicting childish behavior by the portion of the population that has already demonstrated it doesn't take much thought.  The rest of it looks like it was an assignment to write a given viewpoint, paid by the word.



Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.








The FDA's opinion on boosters should create another cliff dive


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> yeah, that’s the graph.  the top right corner is high vax, high hospitalization.  It’s completely empty, because the vax works.


The gray dots say otherwise.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> College-age kids have no risk of covid?


None.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> It seems to me that there maybe two parallel universes going on.  In our community, as far as I can tell, everyone has moved on from Covid since they have been vaccinated.  With the exception of schools (and airplanes), there is little to no mask wearing and people have resumed normal life.  High school football games are packed, offices are back to in-person, restaurants are full, people are enjoying concerts, flights are oversold etc.  Our local sushi place has at least a 1 hour wait on weekends and some weekdays.  It's life as normal.  Are there communities not like that?  The media would have you believe that the unvaccinated are holding up life returning to normal (when the reality is that the fearful are holding off life returning to normal).  I don't see it but maybe there are areas that are still that way.  What is your community like?
> 
> Has is anyone else noticed that the narrative has changed from fear of Covid to fear of the unvaccinated?


The ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM MOVEMENT (AISM) has quite the religious following.  

Been going to the gym since March and, unmasked for at least 3 months now.  Had sit down lunch at Jersey Mikes in L.A. yesterday and the meat slicer is babbling from behind her mask when we we walk in where no masking sign is posted at the entrance.  I  ask her to speak clearly from behind her mask.  Finally, she slips her mask down and says MissIZ and I have to wear mask.  I ask if they have any and they reluctantly provide some for us.  She goes, "you guys must not be from L.A.?".  "Thank God" I answer.  "We're from San Diego" miss IZ says.  Wait for it.  "We follow the Science" I say.  We enjoyed our Subs on the indoor tables...maskless.  The manager sets up tables outside the entrance as a subtle hint.  WE actually thought about eating outside.  But the parking spaces are about 6 ft across the walkway from us, facing us.  Miss IZ goes "wanna go outside? I say, "Are you kidding me??? Some old lady jumps the curb because she thinks she's hitting the brakes and now we're an indirect covid kill??  No thanks!! I came to eat a sandwich, not be one.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Some people are always looking for excuses. trump is a standard bearer for them. They will deny him while expounding on ideas exclusive to him and his ilk. Interesting combination of denial and strict loyalty. “But he’s not president anymore! TRUMP 2024!”


Youre' babbling

… is from page 3 of Richard Epstein’s 2020 book, _The Dubious Morality of Modern Administrative Law_:
_*The key explanation for why such a high level of discretion is applied by courts [to the decisions of administrative agencies] is an uncritical belief that administrative agencies will act in the public interest and resist pleas for partisan outcomes. In all too many cases, that optimistic assumption is false.*_


*DBx*: *Yep. Politicians – even those duly elected by majorities – never have the motivation (or the knowledge) of gods. Ditto for appointed administrative officials and all other government employees. The reason for why this reality escapes so many people escapes me.*


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> The ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM MOVEMENT (AISM) has quite the religious following.
> 
> Been going to the gym since March and, unmasked for at least 3 months now.  Had sit down lunch at Jersey Mikes in L.A. yesterday and the meat slicer is babbling from behind her mask when we we walk in where no masking sign is posted at the entrance.  I  ask her to speak clearly from behind her mask.  Finally, she slips her mask down and says MissIZ and I have to wear mask.  I ask if they have any and they reluctantly provide some for us.  She goes, "you guys must not be from L.A.?".  "Thank God" I answer.  "We're from San Diego" miss IZ says.  Wait for it.  "We follow the Science" I say.  We enjoyed our Subs on the indoor tables...maskless.  The manager sets up tables outside the entrance as a subtle hint.  WE actually thought about eating outside.  But the parking spaces are about 6 ft across the walkway from us, facing us.  Miss IZ goes "wanna go outside? I say, "Are you kidding me??? Some old lady jumps the curb because she thinks she's hitting the brakes and now we're an indirect covid kill??  No thanks!! I came to eat a sandwich, not be one.


That was a risky move bro.  Food servers can put green boogers in da food if you talk too much smack or make political statement.  I took my outlaws out for some killer Mexican food up in Claremont yesterday, which is out in the IE.  Miss Crush was shocked that 99% of EVERYONE had a mask on everywhere.  I did notice that the obese were 100% wearing a mask and had fear all over the eyes.  Outlaws put the mask but not us.  We walk in and no one said a word to my wife and I.  We ate our happy meal and no one gave us dirty looks.  Basically, it was like we were foreigners and we were stared at but not given the mad dog look down I used to get when I lived in East LA for a year.  In fact, I think people liked us for bringing a light of love and confidence to the place.  Kind of like a "it's ok everyone, we got played!"  We look really happy & in love together and grandpa thanked me for taking care of his oldest dd the last 24+ years and producing a stud DS and a beautiful and tough as nails DD.  He loves me but is rough me sometimes.  He talks Guatemala smack most of the time and some Che and tells me like it is and I tell him like it is.  My mother in law has the best heart and is pure as they come.  She doesn;t think she took the jabbs and we dont say anything.


----------



## Desert Hound

This should go in the good news section. Resist.









						Most NYC Restaurants Not Enforcing Vaccine Mandate - Washington Free Beacon
					

Most restaurants in New York City are not enforcing the city's vaccine mandate, an Inside Edition investigation indicates. The CBS investigative program sent undercover agents to 15 restaurants in Manhattan to see if staff were asking patrons for proof of vaccination, as required by new health...




					freebeacon.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Just a reminder for those who seem to forget.

"scientists now believe those infected by the Delta variant can still harbour similar levels of virus to those who are unvaccinated."





__





						Double jabbed carry same viral load of Covid as unvaccinated
					





					www.msn.com
				




The above negates the stated reason for vaxx passports, etc by the way. 

Right now with the delta and the vaxx is that the vaxxed will spread the virus for a bit shorter period of time vs the unvaxxed. 

Either way this is why the virus will continue to spread. Everyone still spreads it vaxxed of unvaxxed. The vax religious amongst us continue to believe other wise. That is why they keep saying it is the fault of the unvaxxed we are still in this situation. 

Reality is...this is going to be endemic.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> This should go in the good news section. Resist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most NYC Restaurants Not Enforcing Vaccine Mandate - Washington Free Beacon
> 
> 
> Most restaurants in New York City are not enforcing the city's vaccine mandate, an Inside Edition investigation indicates. The CBS investigative program sent undercover agents to 15 restaurants in Manhattan to see if staff were asking patrons for proof of vaccination, as required by new health...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> freebeacon.com


Resist maybe, but I also think its a function of common sense and survival.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> This should go in the good news section. Resist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most NYC Restaurants Not Enforcing Vaccine Mandate - Washington Free Beacon
> 
> 
> Most restaurants in New York City are not enforcing the city's vaccine mandate, an Inside Edition investigation indicates. The CBS investigative program sent undercover agents to 15 restaurants in Manhattan to see if staff were asking patrons for proof of vaccination, as required by new health...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> freebeacon.com


Resist what?


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Reality is...this is going to be endemic.


Already is endemic.  Talking heads just haven't given up yet on their messaging.  Need to sell more books.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Resist what?


Did you just wake up from your coma?


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I'm assuming those can be rapid tests and not PCR? If that's the case, it's not super bad as those suckers are easy to do. Problem will be who's going to pay for them.
> 
> What's also weird is the 10-14 day period.  Delta is a much faster moving virus.  In 3-5 days you should know if you have it.   Our schools sit around 7 days with a negative (rapid) on the 5th day. I thought this was extreme, but now looking at your situation it's looking like a cake walk.  Wonder if it's due to our high vax rates.


Schools pay for the tests.  I'll have to ask my colleague what kind of test her soon took.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Just a reminder for those who seem to forget.
> 
> "scientists now believe those infected by the Delta variant can still harbour similar levels of virus to those who are unvaccinated."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Double jabbed carry same viral load of Covid as unvaccinated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above negates the stated reason for vaxx passports, etc by the way.
> 
> Right now with the delta and the vaxx is that the vaxxed will spread the virus for a bit shorter period of time vs the unvaxxed.
> 
> Either way this is why the virus will continue to spread. Everyone still spreads it vaxxed of unvaxxed. The vax religious amongst us continue to believe other wise. That is why they keep saying it is the fault of the unvaxxed we are still in this situation.
> 
> Reality is...this is going to be endemic.


This is a religious cult were dealing with Hound. Ran into old liberal pal of mine and he's a mess and is not so confident like he used to be when his side had all the power & control buttons.  He and I both know the truth.  He hates to hear it but yesterday was the first day he actually acknowledged that I was right and he was wrong about the last 5 some years.  5 year social war with this fool and he finally see's what I see.  He is now eating Crow & Humble Pie.  Another guy I used to tangle with just moved to Mexico.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Did you just wake up from your coma?


I haven't seen anything worth resisting lately.  What have you got?


----------



## espola

espola said:


> I haven't seen anything worth resisting lately.  What have you got?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I haven't seen anything worth resisting lately.  What have you got?


Nothing that would make sense to you.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


>


That's pretty good, going to use this on my oldest.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Nothing that would make sense to you.


Try me.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Just a reminder for those who seem to forget.
> 
> "scientists now believe those infected by the Delta variant can still harbour similar levels of virus to those who are unvaccinated."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Double jabbed carry same viral load of Covid as unvaccinated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above negates the stated reason for vaxx passports, etc by the way.
> 
> Right now with the delta and the vaxx is that the vaxxed will spread the virus for a bit shorter period of time vs the unvaxxed.
> 
> Either way this is why the virus will continue to spread. Everyone still spreads it vaxxed of unvaxxed. The vax religious amongst us continue to believe other wise. That is why they keep saying it is the fault of the unvaxxed we are still in this situation.
> 
> Reality is...this is going to be endemic.


Any wonder that cases have more than doubled while IFR’s have decreased?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Resist what?


You get to choose.  The AISM is trying to make sure you don’t get to choose.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Try me.


We have been trying for years with you. I get more feedback from my Labrador.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Already is endemic.


It will get there, but not endemic yet.  What that steady state looks and how long it takes to get there depends on a lot of things.  Malaria, valley fever, little fluctuation in cases over time, that's endemic. How will we know when Cov2's endemic?  Well for one, people won't be posting on this thread anymore.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> We have been trying for years with you. I get more feedback from my Labrador.


He a "dumb dumb" Hound...... lol


----------



## crush

I dropped my kid off at school this morning and mask on everywhere.  No mask, no entry  Plus we all saw little Mason crying with force mask all day at pre school. My dd was stressed because she couldnt find her damn mask bag so she did what we all have done, grabbed one off the floor matt. She said she will get a new one from her 1st period teacher. As I drove away, I replayed the Crack Wagon vs The Chargers on CBS highlights and all those happy college football fans screaming for four hours in happiness. No mask at all for them. Players all fired up and no mask. I even saw Chuckie get all "F" that and "F" this and were #1 and your my #1 QB now with zero protection and zero mask. I saw this pic just now and it made me super pissed off at how the Elitist WHO rub their noses in our face, point at us and laugh at us as they live in freedom but for us low lifes, no freedom. They know the plan and so does Met 61. Listen up everyone. This is not a test anymore. Light or Dark is the choice and stop thinking you can stay in da middle. Pick a side and live it and be real man or woman. The Light is always right   Stay thirsty for the truth my friends- crush


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> We have been trying for years with you. I get more feedback from my Labrador.


So, nothing, then ?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> So, nothing, then ?


Yep you failed to contribute again.


----------



## ToonArmy

crush said:


> I dropped my kid off at school this morning and mask on everywhere.  No mask, no entry  Plus we all saw little Mason crying with force mask all day at pre school. My dd was stressed because she couldnt find her damn mask bag so she did what we all have done, grabbed one off the floor matt. She said she will get a new one from her 1st period teacher. As I drove away, I replayed the Crack Wagon vs The Chargers on CBS highlights and all those happy college football fans screaming for four hours in happiness. No mask at all for them. Players all fired up and no mask. I even saw Chuckie get all "F" that and "F" this and were #1 and your my #1 QB now with zero protection and zero mask. I saw this pic just now and it made me super pissed off at how the Elitist WHO rub their noses in our face, point at us and laugh at us as they live in freedom but for us low lifes, no freedom. They know the plan and so does Met 61. Listen up everyone. This is not a test anymore. Light or Dark is the choice and stop thinking you can stay in da middle. Pick a side and live it and be real man or woman. The Light is always right   Stay thirsty for the truth my friends- crush
> 
> View attachment 11695


Yep my 4th grader has to wear a mask all day every day at school for the second year now all in the name of protecting adults who get to party with no masks.


----------



## Grace T.

On the origin of the 6 ft distancing rule.  There's no basis for it (they just guessed and politics)....pretty much sums up the totally of covid response.

But it's Science TM!









						Gottlieb: ‘Nobody knows’ origins of six-foot social-distancing recommendation
					

Former Food and Drug Administration (FDA) commissioner Scott Gottlieb said on Sunday that “nobody knows” the origins of the six-foot social-distancing recommendation.During an appearanc…




					thehill.com


----------



## Grace T.

I bet some of you on this forum didn't know you were part of the "fun police".









						My Going Maskless Is Different, Says San Francisco Mayor, Because ‘I Was Feeling the Spirit’ | National Review
					

Know who else feels the spirit and objects to the fun police? Everybody, that’s who.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## dad4

ToonArmy said:


> Yep my 4th grader has to wear a mask all day every day at school for the second year now all in the name of protecting adults who get to party with no masks.


The people with the loudest complaints about masked kids are the anti-mask and anti-vax adults.

I don’t think they even realize they are the ones causing the problem in the first place.


----------



## Desert Hound

Ah...science. And yet the press, many politicians and a lot of people want vaxx passports, etc. 

_People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic a*ppear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.*

The largest real-world analysis comparing natural immunity — gained from an earlier infection — to the protection provided by one of the most potent vaccines currently in use showed that reinfections were much less common. The paper from researchers in Israel contrasts with earlier studies, which showed that immunizations offered better protection than an earlier infection, though those studies were not of the delta variant.

The results are good news for patients who already successfully battled Covid-19, *but show the challenge of relying exclusively on immunizations to move past the pandemic. *People given *both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine were almost six-fold* more likely to contract a delta infection and *seven-fold more likely to have symptomatic disease* than those *who recovered*.

“*This analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the delta variant,*” the researchers said.
_





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> On the origin of the 6 ft distancing rule.  There's no basis for it (they just guessed and politics)....pretty much sums up the totally of covid response.
> 
> But it's Science TM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gottlieb: ‘Nobody knows’ origins of six-foot social-distancing recommendation
> 
> 
> Former Food and Drug Administration (FDA) commissioner Scott Gottlieb said on Sunday that “nobody knows” the origins of the six-foot social-distancing recommendation.During an appearanc…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Remember in the EU many countries were going with 3ft. 

These guys have been guessing on a lot of stuff that today people take as gospel.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I don’t think they even realize they are the ones causing the problem in the first place.


They are not the problem. 

See study above. 

See other studies showing vaxxed transmit just as high viral loads. 

Etc. etc.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Ah...science. And yet the press, many politicians and a lot of people want vaxx passports, etc.
> 
> _People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic a*ppear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.*
> 
> The largest real-world analysis comparing natural immunity — gained from an earlier infection — to the protection provided by one of the most potent vaccines currently in use showed that reinfections were much less common. The paper from researchers in Israel contrasts with earlier studies, which showed that immunizations offered better protection than an earlier infection, though those studies were not of the delta variant.
> 
> The results are good news for patients who already successfully battled Covid-19, *but show the challenge of relying exclusively on immunizations to move past the pandemic. *People given *both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine were almost six-fold* more likely to contract a delta infection and *seven-fold more likely to have symptomatic disease* than those *who recovered*.
> 
> “*This analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the delta variant,*” the researchers said._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


It's really looking like the England approach is the only way out of it.  It would mean healthy adults that are fully vaxxed and seeking to take measures to avoid catching the virus themselves are just selfish prolonging the misery (if it all pans out to be true).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's really looking like the England approach is the only way out of it.  It would mean healthy adults that are fully vaxxed and seeking to take measures to avoid catching the virus themselves are just selfish prolonging the misery (if it all pans out to be true).


Just making shit up again?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You have doubts?


Yeah, I'm still not 100% sold on it yet.  There are still some papers/work in progress on the matter.  I'm still open to having my mind changed about the boosters, but that ship is pretty close to sailing.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Ah...science. And yet the press, many politicians and a lot of people want vaxx passports, etc.
> 
> _People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic a*ppear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.*
> 
> The largest real-world analysis comparing natural immunity — gained from an earlier infection — to the protection provided by one of the most potent vaccines currently in use showed that reinfections were much less common. The paper from researchers in Israel contrasts with earlier studies, which showed that immunizations offered better protection than an earlier infection, though those studies were not of the delta variant.
> 
> The results are good news for patients who already successfully battled Covid-19, *but show the challenge of relying exclusively on immunizations to move past the pandemic. *People given *both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine were almost six-fold* more likely to contract a delta infection and *seven-fold more likely to have symptomatic disease* than those *who recovered*.
> 
> “*This analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the delta variant,*” the researchers said._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


Yes, six times a large.

In the same sense that 0.0000017 is six times as large as 0.00000029.

Neither vaccinated people nor recovered patients are at all likely to be hospitalized for covid.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Just making shit up again?


Grace wants us to have UK rule relaxation without having a UK vaccination rate.  

The UK 16+ vaccination rate is 89% for first shot.  81% fully vaxxed.

If they tried this with a Mississippi or Idaho vax rate, they’d be up shit creek- just like Mississippi and Idaho are.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The people with the loudest complaints about masked kids are the anti-mask and anti-vax adults.


Because that's the box you want to put them in.  Those that you call "Team Virus" on here, are mostly vaccinated, mask compliant adults who believe adults should take care of themselves and not put the burden on children to protect adults.  I don't know maybe we're just dinosaurs that still believe in "women and children first".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It will get there, but not endemic yet.


Okay Fauci.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> On the origin of the 6 ft distancing rule.  There's no basis for it (they just guessed and politics)....pretty much sums up the totally of covid response.
> 
> But it's Science TM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gottlieb: ‘Nobody knows’ origins of six-foot social-distancing recommendation
> 
> 
> Former Food and Drug Administration (FDA) commissioner Scott Gottlieb said on Sunday that “nobody knows” the origins of the six-foot social-distancing recommendation.During an appearanc…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


The Anti-immune system movement (AISM) is pretty religiously fanatic about COVID and global warming.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> They are not the problem.
> 
> See study above.
> 
> See other studies showing vaxxed transmit just as high viral loads.
> 
> Etc. etc.


Studies show vaccinated patients transmit to fewer people:









						Study ties COVID vaccines to lower transmission rates
					

Secondary attack rates dropped from 31% to 11% if the index patient was vaccinated.




					www.cidrap.umn.edu
				




Peak load is high, but vaccinated patients spend considerably less time at peak load.  The shortened time means fewer exposures.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace wants us to have UK rule relaxation without having a UK vaccination rate.
> 
> The UK 16+ vaccination rate is 89% for first shot.  81% fully vaxxed.
> 
> If they tried this with a Mississippi or Idaho vax rate, they’d be up shit creek- just like Mississippi and Idaho are.


You yourself said the Dakotas were partially on their way there.  I think people should get the vaxx.  I wouldn't really even mind a state level mandate.  Where I have the problems are: 1) the federal govt likely (short of an act of Congress, and even then it's dubious) lacks the power to do a mandate, 2) children should at least be exempt as the vaxx doesn't seem to do much good there, and 3) natural immunity should be recognized.

But with respect to the rate, if the states aren't going to mandate it on adults, the elderly vaccination rates are already through the roof and those that haven't gotten it have made their choice.  What's stupid about the US approach though is the place that you could reasonably argue need restrictions aren't going to do it, and those that have restrictions are the ones that least need it.  Given that, unless the states are going to mandate it themselves, there's nothing else on the horizon.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Because that's the box you want to put them in.  Those that you call "Team Virus" on here, are mostly vaccinated, mask compliant adults who believe adults should take care of themselves and not put the burden on children to protect adults.  I don't know maybe we're just dinosaurs that still believe in "women and children first".


My main complaint is with the unvaccinated folks who socialize without masks.  To use your phrase, they are adults who are not taking care of themselves.  Worse, they are adults pushing their burden onto others.

Vaccinated people who are masked and grumbling are fine.  They’re doing the right thing.  They have every right to not like it.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> On the origin of the 6 ft distancing rule.  There's no basis for it (they just guessed and politics)....pretty much sums up the totally of covid response.
> 
> But it's Science TM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gottlieb: ‘Nobody knows’ origins of six-foot social-distancing recommendation
> 
> 
> Former Food and Drug Administration (FDA) commissioner Scott Gottlieb said on Sunday that “nobody knows” the origins of the six-foot social-distancing recommendation.During an appearanc…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Satan demands his followers to be 6 feet a part and where a mask.  Satan also hates children and will do whatever IT can do to harm them.  I tried to wake you all up last year and the year before that Grace T.  I got a head start and nothing else.  Trust me, knowing what I have known the last three years has been hard on my soul.  My wife said I agreed to this life before I was born and I guess I did.  I'm here to offer help any way I can when the red shoe drops.  Symbolism will be their down fall.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Yes, six times a large.
> 
> In the same sense that 0.0000017 is six times as large as 0.00000029.
> 
> Neither vaccinated people nor recovered patients are at all likely to be hospitalized for covid.


The point being...natural immunity is fine and works. I am not stuck on the 6x number in the least. That wasn't the point. 

What I am interested in is that natural immunity works just fine vs people with the vaxx. 

So if you have had it, there is no need to rush out and get vaxxed right?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The people with the loudest complaints about masked kids are the anti-mask and anti-vax adults.
> 
> I don’t think they even realize they are the ones causing the problem in the first place.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> just like Mississippi and Idaho are


Neither are. MS is already on the downward curve of delta. Idaho is about peak...so they will be heading down shortly. Side note on IDAHO for you @dad4 if they are what you say is up shit creek...they still have fewer deaths per million vs CA. 

I would think you would want to be in Idaho. Based on deaths per million it is safer there


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Studies show vaccinated patients transmit to fewer people:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study ties COVID vaccines to lower transmission rates
> 
> 
> Secondary attack rates dropped from 31% to 11% if the index patient was vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cidrap.umn.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peak load is high, but vaccinated patients spend considerably less time at peak load.  The shortened time means fewer exposures.


You see the problem with that article is that they were looking at the ALPHA variant. And yes for the ALPHA that was true. 

It is entirely different with the DELTA variant. With the DELTA transmission rates are very similar. 

So toss your old article away. We have left Alpha behind (which was true as it related to Alpha) and have now moved on to Delta.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> My main complaint is with the unvaccinated folks who socialize without masks.  To use your phrase, they are adults who are not taking care of themselves.  Worse, they are adults pushing their burden onto others.
> 
> Vaccinated people who are masked and grumbling are fine.  They’re doing the right thing.  They have every right to not like it.


Vaxxed people now are getting the virus and spreading at similar rates to the unvaxxed. Delta has changed the equation. 

So while you guys are grumbling and feeling self righteous...remember that with delta you guys are also spreading the D. So you are not saving the world, etc. Masked or unmasked the virus isnt stopping. 

Being vaxxed however reduced chances of hospitalization. And in your case being young and health you have basically no risk pre vaxx and even less so now. So stop grumbling, take off your mask and go live life. Have a beer inside someplace without a mask.


----------



## Grace T.

Some of us have been saying this for a while but we were told no, it's just conspiracy theories, and you guys have no evidence and it's been disproven.









						Sharyl Attkisson: Serious Questions About The Way Covid Deaths Have Been Counted
					

"Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson investigates how Covid-19 cases and deaths are being counted and finds some suspicious overcounting:   As hindsight comes into clearer focus, we're learning a lot about mistaken advice and policies amid the Covid-19 pandemic. One still murky and disputed area...




					www.realclearpolitics.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Studies show vaccinated patients transmit to fewer people:
> Peak load is high, but vaccinated patients spend considerably less time at peak load.  The shortened time means fewer exposures.


And fewer deaths.  You're case hyping again.  IFR of .009 from March 6th to present.  Run along now.


----------



## Grace T.

Thoughtful Vox piece....








						So, it wasn’t a "hot vax summer" after all
					

What does "going back to normal" even mean anymore?




					www.vox.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Some of us have been saying this for a while but we were told no, it's just conspiracy theories, and you guys have no evidence and it's been disproven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sharyl Attkisson: Serious Questions About The Way Covid Deaths Have Been Counted
> 
> 
> "Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson investigates how Covid-19 cases and deaths are being counted and finds some suspicious overcounting:   As hindsight comes into clearer focus, we're learning a lot about mistaken advice and policies amid the Covid-19 pandemic. One still murky and disputed area...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realclearpolitics.com


....Brought to you by the people who penned such classics as "Serious questions about the way election votes have been counted" and "Serious questions about the way Holocaust victims have been counted".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Grace wants us to have UK rule relaxation without having a UK vaccination rate.
> 
> The UK 16+ vaccination rate is 89% for first shot.  81% fully vaxxed.
> 
> If they tried this with a Mississippi or Idaho vax rate, they’d be up shit creek- just like Mississippi and Idaho are.


Nope.  You're case hyping again.  Idaho and MS have been running IFR's between .011 and .023 (outlier) since March 2020 pre-vax, max mask, max SIP.  You give Bovine Scatology a bad name.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Some of us have been saying this for a while but we were told no, it's just conspiracy theories, and you guys have no evidence and it's been disproven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sharyl Attkisson: Serious Questions About The Way Covid Deaths Have Been Counted
> 
> 
> "Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson investigates how Covid-19 cases and deaths are being counted and finds some suspicious overcounting:   As hindsight comes into clearer focus, we're learning a lot about mistaken advice and policies amid the Covid-19 pandemic. One still murky and disputed area...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realclearpolitics.com


Team Chicken Little had no option but to claim conspiracy because the raw death number was always the scariest number they could pump up.  We'd mention % risk and they always came back to "yeah but 600,000 deaths".  Which is admittedly scary and is awful.  However, early on health departments were disclosing that gunshot deaths (among others) with a positive Covid test were categorized as a Covid death.  Now the CDC is admitting that 95% of deaths categorized as Covid had on average 4 other causes of death.  Does that mean that some of those were still killed by Covid, yes, but certainly many died of other primary causes.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> My main complaint is with the unvaccinated folks who socialize without masks.  To use your phrase, they are adults who are not taking care of themselves.  Worse, they are adults pushing their burden onto others.
> 
> Vaccinated people who are masked and grumbling are fine.  They’re doing the right thing.  They have every right to not like it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

A lot of the folks you talk to, whether online or in real life, have a superficial and uninformed opinion of the virus, what works, and what we ought to do.

To this day many if not most people still think the numbers go up and down according to people's behavior. When the numbers go up, that means people are misbehaving. When they go down, people must have started listening to public health officials again.

The fact that people in completely different states with completely different policies see their numbers go up and down at exactly the same time doesn't faze them at all, because they don't bother to inform themselves about what's actually happening.

As if this needed refuting for a thousandth time, I present to you the hospitalization graph for the southern states around the time of the recent spike:




Can you tell which of these states has had a mask mandate during this time?

Can you tell which one has the highest vaccination rate? The lowest?

Of course not: the trajectories and in large part the lines themselves are all the same.

You would think we would be having a discussion about why this should be. Why do these states look exactly the same despite their varying policies implemented at varying times?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Team Chicken Little had no option but to claim conspiracy because the raw death number was always the scariest number they could pump up.  We'd mention % risk and they always came back to "yeah but 600,000 deaths".  Which is admittedly scary and is awful.  However, early on health departments were disclosing that gunshot deaths (among others) with a positive Covid test were categorized as a Covid death.  Now the CDC is admitting that 95% of deaths categorized as Covid had on average 4 other causes of death.  Does that mean that some of those were still killed by Covid, yes, but certainly many died of other primary causes.


Between January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021, 545,600–660,200 more persons than expected died in the United States from all causes.  Even more remarkable, about 50,000 fewer people died from influenza during that period for obvious reasons. How do you explain an extra 600-700k deaths that 13 month period?  Let me guess.  There is a conspiracy on top of a conspiracy....All the deaths listed as Covid-19 deaths were really gunshot wounds and such, except when you add up all the deaths and realize that makes no sense, in which case you claim no one died at all. Right?


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> ....Brought to you by the people who penned such classics as "Serious questions about the way election votes have been counted" and "Serious questions about the way Holocaust victims have been counted".





GoldenGate said:


> ....Brought to you by the people who penned such classics as "Serious questions about the way election votes have been counted" and "Serious questions about the way Holocaust victims have been counted".


You can find countless articles peppered through the NY Times, WAPO, NBC, dem politicians asking about vote counts etc. Refer back to 2016, 2018 and even leading up to 2020. So stop your foolishness.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> A lot of the folks you talk to, whether online or in real life, have a superficial and uninformed opinion of the virus, what works, and what we ought to do.
> 
> To this day many if not most people still think the numbers go up and down according to people's behavior. When the numbers go up, that means people are misbehaving. When they go down, people must have started listening to public health officials again.
> 
> The fact that people in completely different states with completely different policies see their numbers go up and down at exactly the same time doesn't faze them at all, because they don't bother to inform themselves about what's actually happening.
> 
> As if this needed refuting for a thousandth time, I present to you the hospitalization graph for the southern states around the time of the recent spike:
> 
> View attachment 11698
> 
> 
> Can you tell which of these states has had a mask mandate during this time?
> 
> Can you tell which one has the highest vaccination rate? The lowest?
> 
> Of course not: the trajectories and in large part the lines themselves are all the same.
> 
> You would think we would be having a discussion about why this should be. Why do these states look exactly the same despite their varying policies implemented at varying times?


Tom Woods


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Between January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021, 545,600–660,200 more persons than expected died in the United States from all causes.  Even more remarkable, about 50,000 fewer people died from influenza during that period for obvious reasons. How do you explain an extra 600-700k deaths that 13 month period?  Let me guess.  There is a conspiracy on top of a conspiracy....All the deaths listed as Covid-19 deaths were really gunshot wounds and such, except when you add up all the deaths and realize that makes no sense, in which case you claim no one died at all. Right?


I heard COVID cured cancer and heart disease.  No wonder they employed draconian SIP's andNPI's.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

​

Some other interesting charts:

Washington state, which has had all kinds of irrational restrictions but also heavy vaccination, has seen death numbers that look like the following, recently surpassing the height of their worst spike:


​






​
Since it's fashionable to blame Florida governor Rob DeSantis for everything, Ian looks at this chart and jokes, "Why did Ron DeSantis not do more to promote vaccinations in Washington?"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

​
Now let's check in on Maine:


​






​
Miller writes:

"98% of everyone over 65 in Maine is at least partially vaccinated, 93% are fully vaccinated, yet hospitalizations are nearly as high as they were last winter. Let’s see, do we blame this on Ron DeSantis, Sturgis, or college football fans in the South? So many tempting choices!"


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Between January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021, 545,600–660,200 more persons than expected died in the United States from all causes.  Even more remarkable, about 50,000 fewer people died from influenza during that period for obvious reasons. How do you explain an extra 600-700k deaths that 13 month period?  Let me guess.  There is a conspiracy on top of a conspiracy....All the deaths listed as Covid-19 deaths were really gunshot wounds and such, except when you add up all the deaths and realize that makes no sense, in which case you claim no one died at all. Right?


Fair question, first of all its an estimate of expected deaths, not an increase in actual deaths from year to year.  Furthermore the study specifically admits it doesn't differentiate from direct Covid deaths and indirect Covid deaths, which are due to a disruption of health care caused by fear, lockdown and restrictions as follows:

_Finally, estimates of excess deaths not associated with COVID-19 might represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths or deaths indirectly associated with the pandemic (e.g., because of disruptions in health care access or utilization). For example, a previous report described declines in emergency department visits for heart attack, stroke, and hyperglycemic crisis in early 2020 (4). The excess death analyses presented here cannot distinguish between excess deaths that might have been misclassified COVID-19 deaths or those that might have been indirectly associated with the pandemic._

Zero deaths is your claim so you have something to argue against while drinking partisan kool-aid.  I suspect deaths from Covid are in the 100,000's.  Wouldn't be surprised if it were in the neighborhood of 300,000, but I'm very skeptical that its in the 600,000 range.  Of course, we have overwhelming data on the groups that are susceptible to serious health impacts from Covid and its a very narrow and limited population.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> A lot of the folks you talk to, whether online or in real life, have a superficial and uninformed opinion of the virus, what works, and what we ought to do.
> 
> To this day many if not most people still think the numbers go up and down according to people's behavior. When the numbers go up, that means people are misbehaving. When they go down, people must have started listening to public health officials again.
> 
> The fact that people in completely different states with completely different policies see their numbers go up and down at exactly the same time doesn't faze them at all, because they don't bother to inform themselves about what's actually happening.
> 
> As if this needed refuting for a thousandth time, I present to you the hospitalization graph for the southern states around the time of the recent spike:
> 
> View attachment 11698
> 
> 
> Can you tell which of these states has had a mask mandate during this time?
> 
> Can you tell which one has the highest vaccination rate? The lowest?
> 
> Of course not: the trajectories and in large part the lines themselves are all the same.
> 
> You would think we would be having a discussion about why this should be. Why do these states look exactly the same despite their varying policies implemented at varying times?


That point seems to escape people all the time. 

Despite mandates, distancing, etc. Around the world we see roughly the same graphs, outcomes. It is almost like the gov solutions really have little bearing on the actual outcome of what the virus does.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> I bet some of you on this forum didn't know you were part of the "fun police".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Going Maskless Is Different, Says San Francisco Mayor, Because ‘I Was Feeling the Spirit’ | National Review
> 
> 
> Know who else feels the spirit and objects to the fun police? Everybody, that’s who.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


MORE COVID-19 HYPOCRISY: San Francisco Mayor London Breed Partied Maskless at a Jazz Club.



> The video makes it look like a really hopping time. But notice that there isn’t a mask in sight, even though Breed’s own COVID-19 orders require bar, restaurant, and club customers to wear masks when not actively eating or drinking. A local news channel asked Breed about this, and here’s what she said:
> _No, I’m not going to sip and put my mask on, sip and put my mask on, sip and put my mask on, eat and put my mask on. While I’m eating, and I’m drinking, I’m going to keep my mask off,” Breed said.
> In response to getting up and dancing without the mask on while at the Black Cat, she said she was sitting at her table with her drink but got up to dance because she was “feeling the spirit” and she “wasn’t thinking about a mask, I was thinking about having a good time, and in the process, I was following the health order.”_
> Breed is right: It _is _ridiculous to require vaccinated people to mask up under such circumstances. But the obvious solution here would be to rescind the mandate. Breed shouldn’t have to follow it, because _no one _should have to follow it.


“Feeling the spirit” and “thinking about having a good time, and in the process, I was following the health order,” should be every vaccinated person’s _cri de coeur_ when the mask nazis come in 2021.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Okay Fauci.


OK Ioannidis.


----------



## espola




----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 83 of George Will’s hot-off-the-press 2021 book, _American Happiness and Discontents: The Unruly Torrent, 2008-2020_ – a collection of many of his columns over these years; (the column from which the quotation below is drawn was originally published in the _Washington Post_ on August 9th, 2019) (original emphasis):

_







*What socialists are so fond of saying, national conservatives are now saying: This time will be different. It never is, because government’s economic planning always involves the fatal conceit that government can aggregate, and act on, information more intelligently and nimbly than markets can.*_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> OK Ioannidis.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*President Ronald Reagan noted, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. …* It must be fought for, protected and handed on [to our children] to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like … where men were free”.

*“Show me your papers” is only ever merely the beginning. *Vaccine passports, the limiting of certain rights to only those who are vaccinated, the freedom of movement and the ability to travel unimpeded, the ability to remain gainfully employed and to provide for one’s family–by their very nature, the restrictive systems being adopted by the Australian government, our various states, and many of our country’s business leaders are inherently discriminatory, for they will, in no uncertain terms, serve to exclude members of our community from participating fully in our society.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> OK Ioannidis.


ok.. that is hilarious!


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> MORE COVID-19 HYPOCRISY: San Francisco Mayor London Breed Partied Maskless at a Jazz Club.
> 
> 
> “Feeling the spirit” and “thinking about having a good time, and in the process, I was following the health order,” should be every vaccinated person’s _cri de coeur_ when the mask nazis come in 2021.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> View attachment 11701


It's been what, like 25 yrs and I still miss this strip.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> View attachment 11701


Perfect candidate for the A-ISM.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Today the risk of death from COVID-19 for children and most vaccinated adults is no greater than other routine risks we accept in our daily lives without thought. Fewer than 500 American children under 17 have died from the disease since the start of the pandemic, while a few thousand die in car accidents each year. For children and vaccinated adults, the _New York Times_ recently summarized the situation by writing, *“For the vast majority of people, the virus resembled a typical flu, rarely causing serious illness.” However, the incentives of health bureaucrats will be to continue to propagandize us by inflating the risk in order to maintain their own authority, prestige, and budgets.*

For example, the federal mask mandate on airplanes that was set to expire on Sept. 13 has been extended to Jan. 18, despite the low risk of severe cases for most Americans. Although the Delta variant undoubtedly played a role in that decision,* we should be concerned that health bureaucrats will frighten Americans with new variants to get us to continue to accept their “inconveniences” based on false claims of the safety they provide — much as the TSA has done with terrorism over the last 20 years*.--Ben Powell


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Natural immunity to covid is powerful. Policymakers seem afraid to say so. People making decisions about their health deserve honesty from their leaders.

So, the emerging science suggests that natural immunity is as good as or better than vaccine-induced immunity. That’s why it’s so frustrating that the Biden administration has repeatedly argued that immunity conferred by vaccines is preferable to immunity caused by natural infection, as NIH director Francis Collins told Fox News host told Bret Baier a few weeks ago. *That rigid adherence to an outdated theory is also reflected in President Biden’s recent announcement that large companies must require their employees to get vaccinated or submit to regular testing, regardless of whether they previously had the virus.

Downplaying the power of natural immunity has had deadly consequences. In January, February and March, we wasted scarce vaccine doses on millions of people who previously had covid.* If we had asked Americans who were already protected by natural immunity to step aside in the vaccine line, tens of thousands of lives could have been saved. This is not just in hindsight is 20/20; many of us were vehemently arguing and writing at the time for such a rationing strategy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Dr. Gottlieb is much kinder to his friends and former colleagues at the FDA. My view is that the FDA shares in the failure. The FDA does not have authority over laboratory-developed tests, so in ordinary times a lab can develop a test without seeking FDA approval. *But the FDA, using the Covid-19 emergency as a pretext, asserted that any SARS-CoV-2 test needed its approval before it could be deployed. Thus the logic of emergency was inverted. Instead of lifting regulations and giving priority to speed, the FDA increased regulation and slowed test deployment.*

‘Uncontrolled Spread’ Review: Tested and Found Wanting

One general lesson that I draw from facts such as this one is about the unfortunate but largely unalterable reality of government. Government has a nature no less than does any virus. It’s therefore not only pointless, but dangerous because distracting, to make declarations about what interventions government ‘should’ have pursued, and should pursue in the future, to better protect us from contagious pathogens _as if government’s nature is amenable to good intentions expressed by persons adequately informed about science_. Much of the disagreement among people about Covid policy springs from the different assessments different people make about the amount of knowledge to which government can reasonably be supposed to have access and the ability to process, and about the likelihood that government officials will act in the public interest when acting in this manner runs against these officials’ own interests. If our earthly affairs were governed by a supernatural power akin in both knowledge and motivation to the Christian God, then even I would trust this power with the authority to lock humanity down if and whenever this power deemed such a move to be the best. But of course the state is a power categorically and dramatically inferior on all dimensions to any such supernatural power. While no one directly and expressly denies the truth of the previous sentence, a shockingly large number of people endorse government policies as if the previous sentence were untrue. Among the many surprises of the past 18 months has been the number of people who, pre-Covid, understood that the state is not a godlike institution, but who, once Covid appeared, joined ranks with those who believe that the state is both capable of being, and eager to be, godlike.)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's been what, like 25 yrs and I still miss this strip.


It's been more than that since SARS-1 and MERS made a compelling case for not employing grossly disproportionate NPI/SIP mandates.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> View attachment 11701


So how does that cartoon above tie into to the fact that the mayor put rules in place that she herself doesn't follow?

Hmm?

Or is that cartoon your way of telling us that our leaders can make rules they don't have to follow?

Do us a favor. 

Try to have an actual conversation or a comment that actually leads to any kind of discussion.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

One of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> It's been more than that since SARS-1 and MERS made a compelling case for not employing grossly disproportionate NPI/SIP mandates.


SARS-1 first ID early 2000 something; MERS first ID 2012.  So no.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So how does that cartoon above tie into to the fact that the mayor put rules in place that she herself doesn't follow?
> 
> Hmm?
> 
> Or is that cartoon your way of telling us that our leaders can make rules they don't have to follow?
> 
> Do us a favor.
> 
> Try to have an actual conversation or a comment that actually leads to any kind of discussion.


Who said any of us support London Breed?

She is far to the left of anyone here.  Shouldn’t she be busy trying to rename Lincoln Park or extending Calpers benefits to homeless people?

However, the masks still reduce covid transmissibility, and she should have been wearing one.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 11701


I like this kid


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> SARS-1 first ID early 2000 something; MERS first ID 2012.  So no.


You a dumb dumb


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Who said any of us support London Breed?
> 
> She is far to the left of anyone here.  Shouldn’t she be busy trying to rename Lincoln Park or extending Calpers benefits to homeless people?
> 
> However, the masks still reduce covid transmissibility, and she should have been wearing one.


Evidently, she didn't get the notice about "the city's streets resembling one big *outdoor* party." Combine that with "equality-focused embrace of the cannabis industry." and it sounds like paradise. Pass the dutchie on the left-hand side, @dad4. No fun police here. Although, I do wonder if passing the dutchie violates any COVID protocol. Maybe we should stick with the edibles. Based on my most recent stop in the city to get gas, I recommend a cannabis focus versus alcohol. Finding a public toilet was no small task. I mean, I could have just done what the local natives appear to do but I wasn't ready to party like that.









						Time Out lists the 'world's best' cities for 2021
					

Cultural hubs like Amsterdam and New York feature in Time Out's top 10, but which city is top of the global media company's round-up?




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola




----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Who said any of us support London Breed?


I have accused you of a variety of things. Usual panic porn. 

I have not accused you of supporting London Breed. 

I was however telling espola that his cartoon had nothing to do with the fact that the mayor put in place rules she refuses to follow.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> You a dumb dumb


The time stamp on this indicates the sun must have just been barely cracking the horizon and yet Crush already sounds cranky.  That's the problem with those healing feel good endorphins, they never last.  Imagine what a better world it would be if their circulating half life was a little bit longer.  Or maybe the Wallace paint didn't wash off completely and you have to go meet somebody.  Anyway, when it comes to spelling, grammar, syntax in social media posting, I'm generally like whatever. Some future Jared Diamond will be sifting through that digital midden pile thinking to themself, "The only problem with studying this societal collapse is that it's just too easy to understand".  Still, even with the water swirling in the bowl, I can't help but think that if you're going to go with dumb dumb you should use a verb.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The time stamp on this indicates the sun must have just been barely cracking the horizon and yet Crush already sounds cranky.  That's the problem with those healing feel good endorphins, they never last.  Imagine what a better world it would be if their circulating half life was a little bit longer.  Or maybe the Wallace paint didn't wash off completely and you have to go meet somebody.  Anyway, when it comes to spelling, grammar, syntax in social media posting, I'm generally like whatever. Some future Jared Diamond will be sifting through that digital midden pile thinking to themself, "The only problem with studying this societal collapse is that it's just too easy to understand".  Still, even with the water swirling in the bowl, I can't help but think that if you're going to go with dumb dumb you should use a verb.


Mother Moon was smiling bright this morning in my meditation and to be very honest Evil, today is a great day for many reasons.  You dumb, that's it. The reason crush and miss crush happy today?  1.  I dont have to leave California after all.  2.  Looks like I got a really good gig  3.  The two ladies want me to help them with their new biz idea and their willing to pay me to use my brain.  4.  The sun is shinning bro and I work from the beach.  5.  I am super in love with my wife.  6.  My dd is growing up so fast and I'm so proud of her.  7.  God is amazing


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Mother Moon was smiling bright this morning in my meditation and to be very honest Evil, today is a great day for many reasons.  You dumb, that's it. The reason crush and miss crush happy today?  1.  I dont have to leave California after all.  2.  Looks like I got a really good gig  3.  The two ladies want me to help them with their new biz idea and their willing to pay me to use my brain.  4.  The sun is shinning bro and I work from the beach.  5.  I am super in love with my wife.  6.  My dd is growing up so fast and I'm so proud of her.  7.  God is amazing


Glad to hear. I may be dumb but don't think you can go too wrong by wherever possible turning up the volume.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> View attachment 11702


There's a joke in here somewhere....if I were just smart enough to think of it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> SARS-1 first ID early 2000 something; MERS first ID 2012.  So no.


Even more compelling.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 11705


Calling them morons is letting them off the hook.  The people making kids wear masks and shutting down their activities know exactly what they are doing.  Everyone knows children have less than miniscule risk from Covid.  When you point that out to the children punishers they may even admit that, but they say its to prevent "community spread".  "Community Spread" is their euphemism for "I don't want to get Covid from a child".  So instead of putting the responsibility on at-risk adults they put the responsibility on healthy children.  It's part of our new upside down society.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Even more compelling.


Looking forward to the gist of it when you are ready.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Calling them morons is letting them off the hook.  The people making kids wear masks and shutting down their activities know exactly what they are doing.  Everyone knows children have less than miniscule risk from Covid.  When you point that out to the children punishers they may even admit that, but they say its to prevent "community spread".  "Community Spread" is their euphemism for "I don't want to get Covid from a child".  So instead of *putting the responsibility on at-risk adults* they put the responsibility on healthy children.  It's part of our new upside down society.


Can you name anywhere which lowered death rates solely by putting the responsibility on at-risk adults?  All the examples I can think of have high death rates.

A solution which has failed everywhere it was tried is not much of a solution.  

If you want to say that we should put the responsibility on all adults, then I agree.  But that means we all have to mask up and we all have to get vaccinated.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Can you name anywhere which lowered death rates solely by putting the responsibility on at-risk adults?  All the examples I can think of have high death rates.


Not my claim and I don't know if that is true or not.  It's irrelevant and you miss the point.  You're still hung up on Covid being the only measure of successful health policy.

If we just want to talk Covid, how many mask less children have infected and killed adults?  Or how many lives have been saved by closing schools and playgrounds?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Looking forward to the gist of it when you are ready.


That was it.  Not that far in the rear view mirror compared to the 55 million years that Corona has evolved and us with it when we finally showed up.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Can you name anywhere which lowered death rates solely by putting the responsibility on at-risk adults?  All the examples I can think of have high death rates.
> 
> A solution which has failed everywhere it was tried is not much of a solution.
> 
> If you want to say that we should put the responsibility on all adults, then I agree.  But that means we all have to mask up and we all have to get vaccinated.


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> That was it.  Not that far in the rear view mirror compared to the 55 million years that Corona has evolved and us with it when we finally showed up.


By that standard sanitation is a relatively new development.  I don’t begrudge that development in the least…though the streets of San Francisco may be regressing to pre sanitation standards due to lack of public dedication mandates.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> By that standard sanitation is a relatively new development.  I don’t begrudge that development in the least…though the streets of San Francisco may be regressing to pre sanitation standards due to lack of public dedication mandates.


*defecation


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


>


I …… cannot……..stand………listening………to……….people……….who……….drag……..out………their………sentences……..to……..make……..it………seem…….as………though……….they………are………saying……….something………..more……..profound……..than……..they……….really……….are.

You realize that was nothing more than a 6 minute snipped of an introductory bio class, right?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> By that standard sanitation is a relatively new development.  I don’t begrudge that development in the least…though the streets of San Francisco may be regressing to pre sanitation standards due to lack of public dedication mandates.


That's just nasty.  Back to the plague we go.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I …… cannot……..stand………listening………to……….people……….who……….drag……..out………their………sentences……..to……..make……..it………seem…….as………though……….they………are………saying……….something………..more……..profound……..than……..they……….really……….are.
> 
> You realize that was nothing more than a 6 minute snipped of an introductory bio class, right?


Lol!  Go on.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*A lot of the folks you talk to, whether online or in real life, have a superficial and uninformed opinion of the virus, what works, and what we ought to do.

To this day many if not most people still think the numbers go up and down according to people's behavior. When the numbers go up, that means people are misbehaving. When they go down, people must have started listening to public health officials again.

The fact that people in completely different states with completely different policies see their numbers go up and down at exactly the same time doesn't faze them at all, because they don't bother to inform themselves about what's actually happening.

As if this needed refuting for a thousandth time, I present to you the hospitalization graph for the southern states around the time of the recent spike:*










Can you tell which of these states has had a mask mandate during this time?

Can you tell which one has the highest vaccination rate? The lowest?

Of course not: the trajectories and in large part the lines themselves are all the same.

*You would think we would be having a discussion about why this should be. Why do these states look exactly the same despite their varying policies implemented at varying times?*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> *A lot of the folks you talk to, whether online or in real life, have a superficial and uninformed opinion of the virus, what works, and what we ought to do.
> 
> To this day many if not most people still think the numbers go up and down according to people's behavior. When the numbers go up, that means people are misbehaving. When they go down, people must have started listening to public health officials again.
> 
> The fact that people in completely different states with completely different policies see their numbers go up and down at exactly the same time doesn't faze them at all, because they don't bother to inform themselves about what's actually happening.
> 
> As if this needed refuting for a thousandth time, I present to you the hospitalization graph for the southern states around the time of the recent spike:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which of these states has had a mask mandate during this time?
> 
> Can you tell which one has the highest vaccination rate? The lowest?
> 
> Of course not: the trajectories and in large part the lines themselves are all the same.
> 
> *You would think we would be having a discussion about why this should be. Why do these states look exactly the same despite their varying policies implemented at varying times?*


Anybody wanna guess what the National graph looks like for cases and deaths?


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Lol!  Go on.


The basic model for infectious disease has a fixed point at the herd immunity threshold.  It is an attractor: cases rise if you are below, and fall if you are above.   Most diseases you know are endemic: they hang out at the herd immunity threshold.   Covid will one day become endemic.

There.  Now you can skip the video and use the six minutes to make some coffee.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The basic model for infectious disease has a fixed point at the herd immunity threshold.  It is an attractor: cases rise if you are below, and fall if you are above.   Most diseases you know are endemic: they hang out at the herd immunity threshold.   Covid will one day become endemic.
> 
> There.  Now you can skip the video and use the six minutes to make some coffee.


Flu doesn't.  It mutates enough so that each new variant is considered essentially a new virus which resets the herd immunity threshold for at  least part of the population.  And that's before you get to zoonotic reserves.

The issue is that COVID may be like flu instead of chicken pox, or even an entero or adeno virus.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Flu doesn't.  It mutates enough so that each new variant is considered essentially a new virus which resets the herd immunity threshold for at  least part of the population.  And that's before you get to zoonotic reserves.
> 
> The issue is that COVID may be like flu instead of chicken pox, or even an entero or adeno virus.


Just making shit up again?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Just making shit up again?


You seriously claiming there's a herd immunity threshold for flu?  Because as far as I'm aware, it's still around (despite vaccinations and repeated bad flu seasons)


----------



## Grace T.

And they did it not even for Popeyes or Chick Fillet but for KFC.  Are there even KFCs still around in Socal???  Things are so bad that greasy KFC chicken is considered high value contraband.





__





						New Zealand police arrest pair trying to enter Auckland with ‘large amount’ of KFC | New Zealand | The Guardian
					

Two men tried to reach city – where Covid restrictions banned takeaways – with $100,000, three buckets of chicken and an undisclosed quantity of fries, police say




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You seriously claiming there's a herd immunity threshold for flu?  Because as far as I'm aware, it's still around (despite vaccinations and repeated bad flu seasons)


You need Gupta’s painfully slow video.  

Herd immunity does not imply a disease is no longer “still around”.   That isn’t even close to true.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Anybody wanna guess what the National graph looks like for cases and deaths?


NYT beat you to it.

The graph you showed is for the south.  Other regions show a similar shape, except the right hand bulge is much smaller.  They have about 1/3 to 1/2 as many cases, hospitalization, and deaths.  

That’s because other places have a much better vaccination rate and have not blocked mask policies.

Add the west coast and northeast to your graph.  It will look different.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You need Gupta’s painfully slow video.
> 
> Herd immunity does not imply a disease is no longer “still around”.   That isn’t even close to true.


No...flu isn't just "still around"....it periodically mutates into new forms to cause new epidemics (if not pandemics)


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> *The streets of San Francisco* "theme song"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The basic model for infectious disease has a fixed point at the herd immunity threshold.  It is an attractor: cases rise if you are below, and fall if you are above.   Most diseases you know are endemic: they hang out at the herd immunity threshold.   Covid will one day become endemic.
> 
> There.  Now you can skip the video and use the six minutes to make some coffee.


You're case hyping again.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> And they did it not even for Popeyes or Chick Fillet but for KFC.  Are there even KFCs still around in Socal???  Things are so bad that greasy KFC chicken is considered high value contraband.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand police arrest pair trying to enter Auckland with ‘large amount’ of KFC | New Zealand | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Two men tried to reach city – where Covid restrictions banned takeaways – with $100,000, three buckets of chicken and an undisclosed quantity of fries, police say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.theguardian.com


It's The Onion except it's real. I believe you are onto something. This never would have been a story if they had a Popeyes chicken sandwich and a side of red beans and rice for each arresting officer.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> NYT beat you to it.
> 
> The graph you showed is for the south.  Other regions show a similar shape, except the right hand bulge is much smaller.  They have about 1/3 to 1/2 as many cases, hospitalization, and deaths.
> 
> That’s because other places have a much better vaccination rate and have not blocked mask policies.
> 
> Add the west coast and northeast to your graph.  It will look different.


No.  They don't.  Nationally they peaked and dipped during the same time period regardless off how religiously the AISM preached max mask, max vax, min. healthy habits.  But if you're trying to make the point that this is not a one size fits all event and that government has been as grossly negligent as they 've ever been during this endemic event and other interventions I might agree.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I …… cannot……..stand………listening………to……….people……….who……….drag……..out………their………sentences……..to……..make……..it………seem…….as………though……….they………are………saying……….something………..more……..profound……..than……..they……….really……….are.
> 
> You realize that was nothing more than a 6 minute snipped of an introductory bio class, right?


Well shoot, that made me click on it.  I mean I'd cut slack on the presentation style.  Most everybody suffers a hit when they have to adapt to the green screen/see through board technology for lectures/presentations.  Several things for me.  First, none of the four CVs she's talking about are SARS Cov-1 or MERS.  The common cold CVs that are globally endemic are different but related to CoV-2, like both hamsters and guinea pigs are mammals.  That's why the whole SARS appellation is appended to the other ones.  Why do some of the recent outbreak CVs produce respiratory and then systemic hyperinflammation in susceptible people?  We know some of the circuitry involved but not what triggers it.  Second, when discussing virulence it's important to stress that the effective virulence of a pathogen once its endemic in a population can be different than its intrinsic virulence in an unexposed population.  That's where I'd argue with her. We will undoubtably see that with Cov-2, and as I linked the other day, we probably already are.  Third, reasonable to say herd immunity = endemic.  But the thing is kinetics and path chosen.  Through most history the answer has been fast as possible and can that involve some culling of the herd?  Damn straight.  Like I remember walking around when H5N1 came through and there were all these dead crows.  Kind of ghastly.  Now the crows are back and, well, they seem on average bigger.  Like almost raven size.  So when a new virus like CoV-2 emerges in as spectacular a fashion as it did the question is not whether it's going to become endemic or whether we're going to get to herd immunity viewed in that kind of steady state way.  There's no avoiding it.  The issue is to what extent can we manage or direct that process in a modern technocentric world.  Part of its science but, certainly in US, also a clash of social values with those values being reflected through the (increasingly cracked and distorting) lens of politics.  And the scientists divvy up along the value spectrum just like everybody else.  Like the mask debate in the 1918 flu pandemic.  Same issues, but in that case it was the socialists saying "masks bad" and the WW1 mobilized "patriots" organizing sewing circles to make them.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You need Gupta’s painfully slow video.
> 
> Herd immunity does not imply a disease is no longer “still around”.   That isn’t even close to true.


Ahhhh Basic.  Gupta got to you.  Nothing wrong with her delivery speed if it helped you rediscover herd immunity.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well shoot, that made me click on it.  I mean I'd cut slack on the presentation style.  Most everybody suffers a hit when they have to adapt to the green screen/see through board technology for lectures/presentations.  Several things for me.  First, none of the four CVs she's talking about are SARS Cov-1 or MERS.  The common cold CVs that are globally endemic are different but related to CoV-2, like both hamsters and guinea pigs are mammals.  That's why the whole SARS appellation is appended to the other ones.  Why do some of the recent outbreak CVs produce respiratory and then systemic hyperinflammation in susceptible people?  We know some of the circuitry involved but not what triggers it.  Second, when discussing virulence it's important to stress that the effective virulence of a pathogen once its endemic in a population can be different than its intrinsic virulence in an unexposed population.  That's where I'd argue with her. We will undoubtably see that with Cov-2, and as I linked the other day, we probably already are.  Third, reasonable to say herd immunity = endemic.  But the thing is kinetics and path chosen.  Through most history the answer has been fast as possible and can that involve some culling of the herd?  Damn straight.  Like I remember walking around when H5N1 came through and there were all these dead crows.  Kind of ghastly.  Now the crows are back and, well, they seem on average bigger.  Like almost raven size.  So when a new virus like CoV-2 emerges in as spectacular a fashion as it did the question is not whether it's going to become endemic or whether we're going to get to herd immunity viewed in that kind of steady state way.  There's no avoiding it.  The issue is to what extent can we manage or direct that process in a modern technocentric world.  Part of its science but, certainly in US, also a clash of social values with those values being reflected through the (increasingly cracked and distorting) lens of politics.  And the scientists divvy up along the value spectrum just like everybody else.  Like the mask debate in the 1918 flu pandemic.  Same issues, but in that case it was the socialists saying "masks bad" and the WW1 mobilized "patriots" organizing sewing circles to make them.


Thank God for clean drinking water and sanitation systems.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy…on a societal scale?*

a mental health problem in which a caregiver makes up or causes an illness or injury in a person under his or her care…

–“MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME BY PROXY,” C.S. MOTT CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL HEALTH LIBRARY


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Thank God for clean drinking water and sanitation systems.


Which circles us back to Calvin (theologian naughty kid struggling with fate, decision making and attendant anger issues) and Hobbes (bemused sort of "go ahead but I don't want to hear you complaining about it after you do it" philosopher with the stripy tail). Thank WHO?  Sorry-that's bad but couldn't help it.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Which circles us back to Calvin (theologian naughty kid struggling with fate, decision making and attendant anger issues) and Hobbes (bemused sort of "go ahead but I don't want to hear you complaining about it after you do it" philosopher with the stripy tail). Thank WHO?  Sorry-that's bad but couldn't help it.


Calvin and Hobbes are purposeful contradictions.  Calvin is supposed to be a reflection of the theologian John Calvin but often falls into anger, anarchy, and recklessness.  Hobbes is philosopher Hobbes who stood for order, but the tiger (quite contrary to his repeated desire to return to nature) often just turns into a nag and rather than reign in his charge often let's him run wild or even partakes in the wildness.  Both the characters also create a world where the rules are made to be broken (e.g. Calvinball) and can turn deeply existential.  The strip as a result of deeply ironical, and sometimes poorly misunderstood.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Ahhhh Basic.  Gupta got to you.  Nothing wrong with her delivery speed if it helped you rediscover herd immunity.


Herd immunity is not a new concept.  I was aware of it.

Gupta completely ignores the question of _*how*_ we get to herd immunity.  It matters.

One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags.   That would work.   

We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up.  That would work, too.  Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Herd immunity is not a new concept.  I was aware of it.
> 
> Gupta completely ignores the question of _*how*_ we get to herd immunity.  It matters.
> 
> One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags.   That would work.
> 
> We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up.  That would work, too.  Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


We have vaccinated the adults.  The question now is whether we force the refusers to for their own good.

There's also a portion of the adults who (depending on the definition of "need") may not need vaccination because either: a) they've had it already, or b) they are young enough that their risk is negligible.

Then finally there's the separate question of whether we (the responsible ones that have been vaccinated, are very young, or have had it) need to wait for the irresponsible ones to "open up".  Hint: the answer is no.  The only conceivable rational is because some portion of the population (the vaccinated very old in which immunity does not take hold, the immunocompromised) is still vulnerable and then we'd need to know how many and what the off ramp is (an offramp which BTW you haven't been able to articulate).


----------



## Grace T.

Guy's right.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440413509062328326


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We have vaccinated the adults.


We have?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Calvin and Hobbes are purposeful contradictions.  Calvin is supposed to be a reflection of the theologian John Calvin but often falls into anger, anarchy, and recklessness.  Hobbes is philosopher Hobbes who stood for order, but the tiger (quite contrary to his repeated desire to return to nature) often just turns into a nag and rather than reign in his charge often let's him run wild or even partakes in the wildness.  Both the characters also create a world where the rules are made to be broken (e.g. Calvinball) and can turn deeply existential.  The strip as a result of deeply ironical, and sometimes poorly misunderstood.


Yep.  Them's the dudes I'm talking about.  Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it".  Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then.  Except all the screw ups get to be my fault.  Damn it that makes me mad".  Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate.  Position 1.  Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball.  Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball.  My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade.  Did it exactly once.  It was something of an epic fail.  Not that he froze up.  He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer.  It's a competition, there are rules.  But no, he went total Calvinball.  And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yep.  Them's the dudes I'm talking about.  Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it".  Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then.  Except all the screw ups get to be my fault.  Damn it that makes me mad".  Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate.  Position 1.  Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball.  Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball.  My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade.  Did it exactly once.  It was something of an epic fail.  Not that he froze up.  He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer.  It's a competition, there are rules.  But no, he went total Calvinball.  And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.


That's funny.  I agree with your dude about debate the rules, particular Oxford debate.

For example, neither position as to organized sports is correct.  The correct position is there really isn't such a thing as an "organized" sport, which is the antithesis of Calvinball which is (by virtue of its two unbreakable rules) actually organized.  The simpler the mechanism, the more organized it is....otherwise you are in a never ending quest to snap out glitches which are created by virtue of the fact humans are both flawed and clever.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> That's funny.  I agree with your dude about debate the rules, particular Oxford debate.
> 
> For example, neither position as to organized sports is correct.  The correct position is there really isn't such a thing as an "organized" sport, which is the antithesis of Calvinball which is (by virtue of its two unbreakable rules) actually organized.  The simpler the mechanism, the more organized it is....otherwise you are in a never ending quest to snap out glitches which are created by virtue of the fact humans are both flawed and clever.


Well in that case I want my club dues back. Unless that's part of the game.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> Guy's right.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440413509062328326


According to Statista:

2018/19 Flu Season - 477 kids 0-17 died of the Flu

1/20 -9/15/21 - 436 kids 0-17 died with Covid


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> We have?


Yes, the rest are emotionally stunted morons.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yep.  Them's the dudes I'm talking about.  Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it".  Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then.  Except all the screw ups get to be my fault.  Damn it that makes me mad".  Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate.  Position 1.  Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball.  Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball.  My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade.  Did it exactly once.  It was something of an epic fail.  Not that he froze up.  He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer.  It's a competition, there are rules.  But no, he went total Calvinball.  And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.


Competitive debate, unlike Calvinball, has rules.  Back in my old-timey days, each club would prepare an argument for and an argument against a particular proposition (my first season it was "Should Congress pass the Medicare Bill?") and they wouldn't know which side they were arguing until the beginning of debate, when that would be decided by coin flip.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, the rest are emotionally stunted morons.


Did you just wake up?  Are you a vampire yet?  Enjoy the darkness sir.....


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Competitive debate, unlike Calvinball, has rules.  Back in my old-timey days, each club would prepare an argument for and an argument against a particular proposition (my first season it was "Should Congress pass the Medicare Bill?") and they wouldn't know which side they were arguing until the beginning of debate, when that would be decided by coin flip.


You sir are the biggest quitter on these boards.  In fact, I have never ignored anyone and never will.  Bring it on loser.......Big baby and cheater Espola is and ignore only those who kick his ass on SM debate skills.  "I will super ignore you now."  You suck at debate big cheater


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well in that case I want my club dues back. Unless that's part of the game.


It’s the fundamental reason the game exists…at least among children in the us. The Calvinball element is you get to develop new creative ways to separate parents from their money.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Competitive debate, unlike Calvinball, has rules.  Back in my old-timey days, each club would prepare an argument for and an argument against a particular proposition (my first season it was "Should Congress pass the Medicare Bill?") and they wouldn't know which side they were arguing until the beginning of debate, when that would be decided by coin flip.


Again you don’t understand. Calvinball has two (really 3) unbreakable rules.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, the rest are emotionally stunted morons.


Or just smarter and healthier than you.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> According to Statista:
> 
> 2018/19 Flu Season - 477 kids 0-17 died of the Flu
> 
> 1/20 -9/15/21 - 436 kids 0-17 died with Covid


You aren’t going to be dads favorite person anymore. Even taking your figures, even disregarding it’s been shown the covid kid death count is somewhat inflated, you took 2 years of covid and counted it against 1 season of flu.  You may as well count deaths from inception.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> You aren’t going to be dads favorite person anymore. Even taking your figures, even disregarding it’s been shown the covid kid death count is somewhat inflated, you took 2 years of covid and counted it against 1 season of flu.  You may as well count deaths from inception.


It’s all I could find quickly.   Digging deeper isn’t going to change the numbers to Fauci’s favor.


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> It’s all I could find quickly.   Digging deeper isn’t going to change the numbers to Fauci’s favor.


This so called Doc is a fraud bro, just like some of the Docs some of us parents had to deal with in soccer.  When people lie and life is on the line, that really is a bad a lie.  The Doc who lied to my dd and me was bad but not like this bad Doc WHO lies every time he opens his mouth.  This guy fooled even the smartest on this forum.


----------



## crush

Dad is now my new Debbie Downer.  This was 3/7/20......wow!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> We have vaccinated the adults.  The question now is whether we force the refusers to for their own good.
> 
> There's also a portion of the adults who (depending on the definition of "need") may not need vaccination because either: a) they've had it already, or b) they are young enough that their risk is negligible.
> 
> Then finally there's the separate question of whether we (the responsible ones that have been vaccinated, are very young, or have had it) need to wait for the irresponsible ones to "open up".  Hint: the answer is no.  The only conceivable rational is because some portion of the population (the vaccinated very old in which immunity does not take hold, the immunocompromised) is still vulnerable and then we'd need to know how many and what the off ramp is (an offramp which BTW you haven't been able to articulate).


We vaccinated 2/3 of our adults.

That isn't the same thing as "we vaccinated the adults".

Kind of like my kid saying "I set the table".  Then you look and see three plates and one napkin.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Or just smarter and healthier than you.


I’m just spiffy, worry about yourself kimosabe.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We vaccinated 2/3 of our adults.
> 
> That isn't the same thing as "we vaccinated the adults".
> 
> Kind of like my kid saying "I set the table".  Then you look and see three plates and one napkin.


I find it kind of interesting you chose a parent-kid dynamic to describe it.  Reeks of paternalism.

A more proper analogy would be that if high school kids want to have lunch, they need to be in line at the cafeteria by noon.  If you aren't in line by noon, you bear the consequences and don't eat.  Everyone who wants lunch at this point has been offered it.  No one is dragging the kids kicking and screaming to have lunch, no one is telling them they will be expelled if they don't have lunch, no one is holding their hand if they fall asleep in algebra class after lunch, and no one is checking before they run afternoon pe if they had lunch in order to avoiding having them faint.

Note also a chunk of the 1/3 already has natural immunity.  By the CDC's own estimate, among blood donor eligible ages, it's in the mid 80s


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I find it kind of interesting you chose a parent-kid dynamic to describe it.  Reeks of paternalism.
> 
> A more proper analogy would be that if high school kids want to have lunch, they need to be in line at the cafeteria by noon.  If you aren't in line by noon, you bear the consequences and don't eat.  Everyone who wants lunch at this point has been offered it.  No one is dragging the kids kicking and screaming to have lunch, no one is telling them they will be expelled if they don't have lunch, no one is holding their hand if they fall asleep in algebra class after lunch, and no one is checking before they run afternoon pe if they had lunch in order to avoiding having them faint.
> 
> Note also a chunk of the 1/3 already has natural immunity.  By the CDC's own estimate, among blood donor eligible ages, it's in the mid 80s


And you're still wrong.

Why do you do this, day after day?


----------



## espola

Ron DeS of Florida continues to live in Fantasy Land as he appoints a new Surgeon General who advocates the hydroxychloroquine cure.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’m just spiffy, worry about yourself kimosabe.


Ironic, that’s been many posters points from the start!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I find it kind of interesting you chose a parent-kid dynamic to describe it.  Reeks of paternalism.
> 
> A more proper analogy would be that if high school kids want to have lunch, they need to be in line at the cafeteria by noon.  If you aren't in line by noon, you bear the consequences and don't eat.  Everyone who wants lunch at this point has been offered it.  No one is dragging the kids kicking and screaming to have lunch, no one is telling them they will be expelled if they don't have lunch, no one is holding their hand if they fall asleep in algebra class after lunch, and no one is checking before they run afternoon pe if they had lunch in order to avoiding having them faint.
> 
> Note also a chunk of the 1/3 already has natural immunity.  By the CDC's own estimate, among blood donor eligible ages, it's in the mid 80s


Of course I had to use a child for the example.  Your statement was premature in a childlike fashion.

It is not adult behavior to claim to have finished something which you have not actually finished.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’m just spiffy, worry about yourself kimosabe.


 I'm just speaking up for the innocent  you routinely disparage. You drown their voices out.  I am flattered that you call me a trusted and loyal scout.  Nice.  Just watch what you say, could be considered cultural appropriation.  And you know what that means.......


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Of course I had to use a child for the example.  Your statement was premature in a childlike fashion.
> 
> It is not adult behavior to claim to have finished something which you have not actually finished.


Your authoritarianism is leaking again….the task was offering a vaccine to anyone who wanted one

do you bend over this much for your students?  Give them as if they didn’t study, give them a nap and your notes if they are too tired for class, let them rest under a tree if they are out of condition during pe, give them extra time if the dog eats their homework, pat them on the head if they are late for school?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And you're still wrong.
> 
> Why do you do this, day after day?


We know why you do it: you are an old and very grumpy man who seeks validation by fancying himself a scholar and debater.  You lash out and resent when your limitations are pointed out and because you realize it’s easier to put down an argument than to actually engage in one, and when you do try and engage it’s a weird little string because it’s what you feel safe on. perhaps even you seek a little bit of control because your wife is a strong personality that runs the family.  They say the folks that troll are the ones that otherwise feel powerless in their lives.  It’s a little sad actually.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Herd immunity is not a new concept.  I was aware of it.
> 
> Gupta completely ignores the question of _*how*_ we get to herd immunity.  It matters.
> 
> One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags.   That would work.
> 
> We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up.  That would work, too.  Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


The Great Barrington Declaration


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Herd immunity is not a new concept.  I was aware of it.
> 
> Gupta completely ignores the question of _*how*_ we get to herd immunity.  It matters.
> 
> One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags.   That would work.
> 
> We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up.  That would work, too.  Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


You've ignored the Science from the beginning.  Nobody is pretending except you and your case hyping.

*The Great Barrington Declaration*
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. 
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. 
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. 
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
_On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.
SIGN THE DECLARATION
*Co-signers
Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker*, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
*Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas*, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
*Dr. Angus Dalgleish*, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
*Dr. Anthony J Brookes*, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
*Dr. Annie Janvier*, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
*Dr. Ariel Munitz*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Boris Kotchoubey*, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
*Dr. Cody Meissner*, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
*Dr. David Katz*, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
*Dr. David Livermore*, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England
*Dr. Eitan Friedman*, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ellen Townsend*, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
*Dr. Eyal Shahar*, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
*Dr. Florian Limbourg*, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
*Dr. Gabriela Gomes*, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
*Dr. Gerhard Krönke*, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany
*Dr. Gesine Weckmann*, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany
*Dr. Günter Kampf,* associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany
*Dr. Helen Colhoun*, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson*, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
*Dr. Karol Sikora*, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
*Dr. Laura Lazzeroni*, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
*Dr. Lisa White*, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
*Dr. Mario Recker*, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
*Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe*, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
*Dr. Matthew Strauss*, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
*Dr. Michael Jackson*, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
*Dr. Michael Levitt*, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.
*Dr. Mike Hulme*, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England
*Dr. Motti Gerlic*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Partha P. Majumder*, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
*Dr. Paul McKeigue*, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Rajiv Bhatia*, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
*Dr. Rodney Sturdivant*, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
*Dr. Salmaan Keshavjee*, professor of Global Health and Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Dr. Simon Thornley*, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
*Dr. Simon Wood*, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
*Dr. Stephen Bremner*,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England
*Dr. Sylvia Fogel*, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
*Tom Nicholson*, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
*Dr. Udi Qimron*, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
*Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer*, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany
*Dr. Uri Gavish*, biomedical consultant, Israel
*Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu*, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Thank WHO?  Sorry-that's bad but couldn't help it.


The big guy


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> According to Statista:
> 
> 2018/19 Flu Season - 477 kids 0-17 died of the Flu
> 
> 1/20 -9/15/21 - 436 kids 0-17 died with Covid


 "with" what else and COVID?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, the rest are emotionally stunted morons.


Hanapaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> We vaccinated 2/3 of our adults.
> 
> That isn't the same thing as "we vaccinated the adults".
> 
> Kind of like my kid saying "I set the table".  Then you look and see three plates and one napkin.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Ron DeS of Florida continues to live in Fantasy Land as he appoints a new Surgeon General who advocates the hydroxychloroquine cure.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Your authoritarianism is leaking again….the task was offering a vaccine to anyone who wanted one
> 
> do you bend over this much for your students?  Give them as if they didn’t study, give them a nap and your notes if they are too tired for class, let them rest under a tree if they are out of condition during pe, give them extra time if the dog eats their homework, pat them on the head if they are late for school?


The task, as originally proposed, was to vaccinate the adults.

By any reasonable measure, THAT task has clearly not been completed, even if you exclude those who cannot be vaccinated.

You would like to redefine the task to be something easier.  Tough.  The task depends on the behavior of to the disease, not what you or I find convenient.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Of course I had to use a child for the example.  Your statement was premature in a childlike fashion.
> 
> It is not adult behavior to claim to have finished something which you have not actually finished.


All human beings are issued an immune system prior to birth.  937K Immune systems were issued since COVID started....again.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The task, as originally proposed, was to vaccinate the adults.
> 
> By any reasonable measure, THAT task has clearly not been completed, even if you exclude those who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> You would like to redefine the task to be something easier.  Tough.  The task depends on the behavior of to the disease, not what you or I find convenient.


Nope the task is to provide a shot to anyone that wants it. It’s offering the lunch not forcing everyone to eat it.  And none of it depends on the behavior of the disease….as long as it’s endemic you can catch it…what you do with that afterwards is up to you and the rest of us don’t have to sit around waiting for you to make the right choice.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The task depends on the behavior of to the disease, ......


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The task depends on the behavior of to the disease, .....


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Nope the task is to provide a shot to anyone that wants it. It’s offering the lunch not forcing everyone to eat it.  And none of it depends on the behavior of the disease….as long as it’s endemic you can catch it…what you do with that afterwards is up to you and the rest of us don’t have to sit around waiting for you to make the right choice.


Not an useful definition.  

Deaths and hospitalizations don't fall just because we tried real hard.  

Deaths and hospitalizations fall when we actually vaccinated enough people that R drops below 1.

Do, or do not.  There is no try.

- Buzz, currently from Dagoba System


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not an useful definition.
> 
> Deaths and hospitalizations don't fall just because we tried real hard.
> 
> Deaths and hospitalizations fall when we actually vaccinated enough people that R drops below 1.
> 
> Do, or do not.  There is no try.
> 
> - Buzz, currently from Dagoba System


If your argument Is that this is an epidemic of the unvaccinated now, well again that’s on them. They’ve made their decision. They have to live with the consequences. We can’t all be on hold waiting for them. That leaves you two choices: drag them from their houses kicking and screaming (or if you are too squeamish pass a state mandate requiring it to work), or move on at this point because it is what it is

if your argument is the vaccinated must be protected from the unvaccinated you are basically saying the vaccines don’t work so what are we arguing about


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We know why you do it: you are an old and very grumpy man who seeks validation by fancying himself a scholar and debater.  You lash out and resent when your limitations are pointed out and because you realize it’s easier to put down an argument than to actually engage in one, and when you do try and engage it’s a weird little string because it’s what you feel safe on. perhaps even you seek a little bit of control because your wife is a strong personality that runs the family.  They say the folks that troll are the ones that otherwise feel powerless in their lives.  It’s a little sad actually.


So instead of admitting your error, you throw out insults.

Why do you do this, day after day?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nope the task is to provide a shot to anyone that wants it. It’s offering the lunch not forcing everyone to eat it.  And none of it depends on the behavior of the disease….as long as it’s endemic you can catch it…what you do with that afterwards is up to you and the rest of us don’t have to sit around waiting for you to make the right choice.


You're still wrong.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> You're still wrong.


What makes you right?

What are you right about?

What is the air speed of a swallow?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Not an useful definition.
> 
> Deaths and hospitalizations don't fall just because we tried real hard.
> 
> Deaths and hospitalizations fall when we actually vaccinated enough people that R drops below 1.
> 
> Do, or do not.  There is no try.
> 
> - Buzz, currently from Dagoba System


Calvin says it was destined to happen. (Try doesn’t matter)

Hobbes thinks man, by nature, is nasty, brutish, and short. (They’re going to resist)

Currently the brutish are saying that is was destined to happen.  I’m not sure what to make of that.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> We know why you do it: you are an old and very grumpy man who seeks validation by fancying himself a scholar and debater.  You lash out and resent when your limitations are pointed out and because you realize it’s easier to put down an argument than to actually engage in one, and when you do try and engage it’s a weird little string because it’s what you feel safe on. perhaps even you seek a little bit of control because your wife is a strong personality that runs the family.  They say the folks that troll are the ones that otherwise feel powerless in their lives.  It’s a little sad actually.


Espola wife wears the pants Grace, that is obvious.  He is controlled by the POP!!!


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> What makes you right?
> 
> What are you right about?
> 
> *What is the air speed of a swallow?*


Swallow speed please.  That got my attention because I live by the Capo Mission.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> What makes you right?
> 
> What are you right about?
> 
> What is the air speed of a swallow?


Is that an African or European swallow?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is that an African or European swallow?




Ask the Swallow's when they come to Capo


----------



## crush

Watch the Audit in AZ 9/24 1pm.  9/23 is a day you dont want to mess with.  All of this is a distraction about the kids and all the human trafficking. It's pure evil what these monsters have done to kids.  I was going to be served on a platter to some evil pricks who have no regard for human life, let alone for the truth but my foster mom saved me.  This is for reals fellas.  Scottish Rite, 33 and so much more hidden evil that no one seem to know about.  One big secret society of pure shit.  The devil's language is Lie, not Thai remember that.  I'm here for anyone who needs deeper understanding that were not just on earth to make a buck, get kids in college anyway means  possible, retire, get sick and then die alone and not know where to go after death.  That is some serious fear of the unknown.  I'm here to say death is actually a celebration of the best is yet to come.  The first shall be last and last shall be first. 

*Maricopa County Supervisor Steve Chucri has resigned.*


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Calvin says it was destined to happen. (Try doesn’t matter)
> 
> Hobbes thinks man, by nature, is nasty, brutish, and short. (They’re going to resist)
> 
> Currently the brutish are saying that is was destined to happen.  I’m not sure what to make of that.


Calvin, by nature, isn’t really a “try hard“ kind of kid.  

Being a boy of destiny is one way to avoid effort.


----------



## crush

Pure Evil!!!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So instead of admitting your error, you throw out insults.
> 
> Why do you do this, day after day?


You always go first man. You always go first. It is your thing. Truth hurts don’t it?


----------



## crush

WHO said, "The Vaccine is full of shit?"


----------



## Desert Hound

[QU


dad4 said:


> We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up. That would work, too. Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


Here is the thing. 

- The people that have wanted to get vaxxed have. 
- Vaxxed or not with delta both groups spread the covid (your article by the way referenced ALPHA not DELTA). So being vaxxed doesn't stop the spread of the virus. 
- So at this point it is time to move on.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> if your argument is the vaccinated must be protected from the unvaccinated you are basically saying the vaccines don’t work so what are we arguing about


That is in essence what dad and many others seem to be arguing....ie get vaccinated to help the vaccinated. And yet at the same time fail to realize that with delta the vaccinated spread the virus at rates pretty close to the unvaccinated. 

At the point...what is the point? 

People have made their choice. Time to move on.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> [QU
> 
> Here is the thing.
> 
> - The people that have wanted to get vaxxed have.
> - Vaxxed or not with delta both groups spread the covid (your article by the way referenced ALPHA not DELTA). So being vaxxed doesn't stop the spread of the virus.
> - So at this point it is time to move on.


How does that plan work for the kids who keep filling up pediatric ICU beds in low vax states?  

Pediatric covid hospitalization rate is about 1.4 per 100K, higher for younger kids.  Roughly 1/4 of those admitted go to the ICU.






						CDC: Delta variant causing increase in pediatric COVID-19 cases, not severity | AAP News | American Academy of Pediatrics
					






					www.aappublications.org
				




The low vax states have about 8.4 pediatric covid admissions per million kids per day.  That’s more than 3 times the average in high vax states.



			https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109402
		


Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common.  Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.

If you want to know how common,daily pediatric hospital admissions recently topped 300.  









						Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
					

Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.




					www.cnbc.com
				




 If the delta surge lasts 100 days, that’s about 30,000 pediatric covid hospitalizations, most of which could have been prevented if the adults had gotten their shots.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> How does that plan work for the kids who keep filling up pediatric ICU beds in low vax states?
> 
> Pediatric covid hospitalization rate is about 1.4 per 100K, higher for younger kids.  Roughly 1/4 of those admitted go to the ICU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC: Delta variant causing increase in pediatric COVID-19 cases, not severity | AAP News | American Academy of Pediatrics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aappublications.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The low vax states have about 8.4 pediatric covid admissions per million kids per day.  That’s more than 3 times the average in high vax states.
> 
> 
> 
> https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109402
> 
> 
> 
> Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common.  Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.
> 
> If you want to know how common,daily pediatric hospital admissions recently topped 300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
> 
> 
> Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the delta surge lasts 100 days, that’s about 30,000 pediatric covid hospitalizations, most of which could have been prevented if the adults had gotten their shots.


Hey dad, you gave it your all bro but you should go away humble.  You look lame and dumb now.  Romania just closed all their Vax doors.  70% of the country told Soros and his crew to F off and no more lies.


----------



## Desert Hound

U of Waterloo in CA took a look at masks.

Surgical masks? At MOST stop about 10% of the virus. They are fans of the n95s. 

What was pointed out at the beginning of the covid mask mandates and laughed off by guys like dad and others is the fact that in surgical masks, the air is just redirected...both in and out. You aren't filtering much at all. Which ties in with all those decades of studies showing surgical masks don't stop the spread of respiratory illnesses.

Here is a video from their study showing that the masks just move the air in a different direction.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

When Diktats and Conscience conflict

Grotius taught European rulers their accountability to their subjects, to God, and to nature. He taught that the individual human being, as such, has natural rights. He taught rulers, through conscience and justice, to moderate their rule and their conflicts. There is *a direct line from Grotius to Adam Smith’s “liberal plan of equality, liberty, and justice”* and to what Deirdre McCloskey calls The Great Enrichment.

Grotius was a great liberal because he saw that everyone has moral agency, as an individual: Rulers are to be judged by the ruled. Everyone has the capacity and the responsibility to judge. Even in war, he suggested that all declarations of war be “accompanied by a declaration of the cause of the war; that the whole human race, as it were, might judge of its justice.” Citing Aristotle, he insisted, “Justice is a virtue which belongs to man as man.”

We are not slavish tools of autocrats or government agencies. “Stratocles was laughed at in Athens for proposing a law that whatever was thought good by Demetrius, should be reckoned right and pious.” *We laugh at Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook for shutting down discourse that challenges whatever they pretend to regard as the Mount Olympus of Covid wisdom.*


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> How does that plan work for the kids who keep filling up pediatric ICU beds in low vax states?


Kids are not filling up ICU beds.

The CDC tracks this.

The CDC’s Associated Hospital Surveillance Network (COVID-NET) collects age-specific hospitalization data for COVID-19. Through September 11, 2021, the week with the highest number of hospitalizations for children under 18 during the Delta wave, 117 children in its network were hospitalized with COVID-19.

So when you post stories that say the HIGHEST number ever, etc. The above is the actual number. And it is extremely SMALL.

It is also important to note that they are tracking kids WITH covid in the hospital. That doesn't separate out the fact that many of them are there because of other reasons and have then been tested as having COVID. 

Follow the data @dad4


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> U of Waterloo in CA took a look at masks.
> 
> Surgical masks? At MOST stop about 10% of the virus. They are fans of the n95s.
> 
> What was pointed out at the beginning of the covid mask mandates and laughed off by guys like dad and others is the fact that in surgical masks, the air is just redirected...both in and out. You aren't filtering much at all. Which ties in with all those decades of studies showing surgical masks don't stop the spread of respiratory illnesses.
> 
> Here is a video from their study showing that the masks just move the air in a different direction.


Shocking isn’t it?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How does that plan work for the kids who keep filling up pediatric ICU beds in low vax states?
> 
> Pediatric covid hospitalization rate is about 1.4 per 100K, higher for younger kids.  Roughly 1/4 of those admitted go to the ICU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC: Delta variant causing increase in pediatric COVID-19 cases, not severity | AAP News | American Academy of Pediatrics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aappublications.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The low vax states have about 8.4 pediatric covid admissions per million kids per day.  That’s more than 3 times the average in high vax states.
> 
> 
> 
> https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109402
> 
> 
> 
> Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common.  Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.
> 
> If you want to know how common,daily pediatric hospital admissions recently topped 300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
> 
> 
> Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the delta surge lasts 100 days, that’s about 30,000 pediatric covid hospitalizations, most of which could have been prevented if the adults had gotten their shots.


a. Ah pediatric cases. The last redoubt for the panicked. 
b. You aren’t going to eliminate it completely if the vaccinated can still transmit (and before you say yeah masks newsoms kids got it despite being masked)
c. It’s already been shown there is an overcount in the number of kids hospitalized from covid
d. It’s already been shown an unvaccinated under 12 has a lower death and hospitalization risk than a vaxxed 40 year okd
e. It’s already been shown flu carries 2x the hospitalization risk for kids under 12 and rsv carries 4x the hospitalization risk
f. The new study I was reading out of the uk shows that 30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them…best that can be done as with pertussis is vaxx their folks


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> a. Ah pediatric cases. The last redoubt for the panicked.
> b. You aren’t going to eliminate it completely if the vaccinated can still transmit (and before you say yeah masks newsoms kids got it despite being masked)
> c. It’s already been shown there is an overcount in the number of kids hospitalized from covid
> d. It’s already been shown an unvaccinated under 12 has a lower death and hospitalization risk than a vaxxed 40 year okd
> e. It’s already been shown flu carries 2x the hospitalization risk for kids under 12 and rsv carries 4x the hospitalization risk
> f. The new study I was reading out of the uk shows that 30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them…best that can be done as with pertussis is vaxx their folks


Ps anyone who has a one or under at this point knew what they were jumping into and most of the hospitalization are to monitor as you have to watch that group carefully due to sids risk.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Maybe with a little less collateral damage.


Why would you want less natural immunity?


----------



## Desert Hound

Also perspective.

The press doesn't report on most illnesses like they do with covid. So you are unaware of what goes on so to speak.

@dad4 is freaked out about relatively small numbers of kids in the hospital who have ALSO been tested with covid. Unlikely they are there because of covid. That said...here is a number or fact that puts kids and hospitals into more perspective. Grace T has mentioned RSV many times.

According to the CDC, 58,000 children under the age of five are hospitalized for RSV annually.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> How does that plan work for the kids who keep filling up pediatric ICU beds in low vax states?
> 
> Pediatric covid hospitalization rate is about 1.4 per 100K, higher for younger kids.  Roughly 1/4 of those admitted go to the ICU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC: Delta variant causing increase in pediatric COVID-19 cases, not severity | AAP News | American Academy of Pediatrics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aappublications.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The low vax states have about 8.4 pediatric covid admissions per million kids per day.  That’s more than 3 times the average in high vax states.
> 
> 
> 
> https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109402
> 
> 
> 
> Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common.  Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.
> 
> If you want to know how common,daily pediatric hospital admissions recently topped 300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pediatric Covid hospitalizations surge to highest on record in U.S. as doctors brace for more
> 
> 
> Since most students aren't old enough to get the shots, doctors and epidemiologists say they fear the surge in Covid hospitalizations could get worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the delta surge lasts 100 days, that’s about 30,000 pediatric covid hospitalizations, most of which could have been prevented if the adults had gotten their shots.





Desert Hound said:


> Kids are not filling up ICU beds.
> 
> The CDC tracks this.
> 
> The CDC’s Associated Hospital Surveillance Network (COVID-NET) collects age-specific hospitalization data for COVID-19. Through September 11, 2021, the week with the highest number of hospitalizations for children under 18 during the Delta wave, 117 children in its network were hospitalized with COVID-19.
> 
> So when you post stories that say the HIGHEST number ever, etc. The above is the actual number. And it is extremely SMALL.
> 
> It is also important to note that they are tracking kids WITH covid in the hospital. That doesn't separate out the fact that many of them are there because of other reasons and have then been tested as having COVID.
> 
> Follow the data @dad4


Dad lost his credibility long ago.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> *If *the delta surge lasts 100 days, that’s about 30,000 pediatric covid hospitalizations, most of which could have been prevented if the adults had gotten their shots.


The power of “If”.


----------



## crush

Summertime is over.....


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Also perspective.
> 
> The press doesn't report on most illnesses like they do with covid. So you are unaware of what goes on so to speak.
> 
> @dad4 is freaked out about relatively small numbers of kids in the hospital who have ALSO been tested with covid. Unlikely they are there because of covid. That said...here is a number or fact that puts kids and hospitals into more perspective. Grace T has mentioned RSV many times.
> 
> According to the CDC, 58,000 children under the age of five are hospitalized for RSV annually.


It really is like those periodic panics the news gins up for kids.  I remember growing up for me it was your kid is going to get kidnapped (there was even a very special different strokes on the subject) and they made us do all these kidnapping drills in school (even though the vast majority of kidnappings are from relatives). When my younger bro was growing up it was the rabies scare (he grew up scared of dogs as a result and spent a year of childhood running away from squirrels). Then around when my first was born it was the plastic bottle/vaccines and autism scare.  Then just a few years ago it was random trees falling on kids in parks scare (I remember my mom freaking out kiddos ayso team was resting in the shade during a littles soccer game).


----------



## Keepermom2

Multi Sport said:


> Peer reviewed? Ok. What about the Peer Reviewed studies that are contrary to the ones that were chosen? You are aware of those, correct?
> 
> And since you are a woman...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine's impact on menstrual cycles needs to be investigated after 30,000 women report changes, says top scientist
> 
> 
> Dr. Victoria Male, from Imperial College London, says the changes are safe and short-lived, but it's crucial to find out why it happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Unable to effectively or intelligently respond so resorting to a sexist response is all you got. Enough said!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You always go first man. You always go first. It is your thing. Truth hurts don’t it?


I questioned your misleading statement, agreed with dad4 that you are wrong, and you blastred out the ad hominems.

BTW, it's interesting to analyze what it is that you think are insults.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It really is like those periodic panics the news gins up for kids.  *I remember growing up for me it was your kid is going to get kidnapped* (there was even a very special different strokes on the subject) and they made us do all these kidnapping drills in school (even though the vast majority of kidnappings are from relatives).


My mom told me I was a "special baby" and to be on the look out for evil kidnappers and bad dudes or woman looking to get me because I got away the first time.  They almost got me at Doheny Beach Grace when I was 5.  No kid you not.  I also hitch hiked into downtown Laguna from South Laguna when I was13-15 year old blond kid with long ass hair.  One day when I needed a quick ride I put my thumb out.  I think one of those Freeway or Hillside killers picked me up.  Dude was all in my grill with sweet talk at first and even asked me if I wanted to smoke a joint and earn $50.  I asked how and then he told me what he wanted to do to me and I in turn do the same to him.  He looked with excitement and evil eyes as he waited for my answer.  I had watched the news and had scene some shows about these psychopaths.  I went fucking wild cat in his car and told him to let me fucking out "Now!!!!!!!!!"  I would have jumped out his this fucking car if he didnt stop.  Dude tried to offer me a joint which I was told later that one of these monsters would laze and then you end up dead after he has his way with you all drugged up.  I can;t wait until all these monsters are off this planet.  The moral of my story is to listen to your mother and dont hitch hike.  This is 100% a true story of survival and one of the 11 lives I have had so far and I keep landing on my feet somehow.  Love you Grace T ")


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> a. Ah pediatric cases. The last redoubt for the panicked.
> b. You aren’t going to eliminate it completely if the vaccinated can still transmit (and before you say yeah masks newsoms kids got it despite being masked)
> c. It’s already been shown there is an overcount in the number of kids hospitalized from covid
> d. It’s already been shown an unvaccinated under 12 has a lower death and hospitalization risk than a vaxxed 40 year okd
> e. It’s already been shown flu carries 2x the hospitalization risk for kids under 12 and rsv carries 4x the hospitalization risk
> f. The new study I was reading out of the uk shows that 30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them…best that can be done as with pertussis is vaxx their folks


You like to frame things in an emotional context in an attempt to belittle those you don’t agree with if you aren’t just straight up name calling. We all perceive the world through the specific prism of our own personal experience.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> You like to frame things in an emotional context in an attempt to belittle those you don’t agree with if you aren’t just straight up name calling. *We all* perceive the world through the specific prism of our own personal experience.


oh spare us this mumbo jumbo BS. * We all* see how much hate of the truth you hate.  It's not too late to capitulate.  The light is always right,


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The first article is from three weeks ago, the second from a month ago. The southeast, where the highest concentration of unvaccinated reside, is well past its peak with Florida at less than half the 7-day average (which is a lagging indicator) of their peak in late August. That it is not easy to find in a google search indicates to me it's likely decreasing as "news" = "bad news" - COVID or not.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Follow the data @dad4


Unfortunately most are following the headlines.  Or getting their news from social media, the Daily Show, the Tonight Show etc.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> It really is like those periodic panics the news gins up for kids.  I remember growing up for me it was your kid is going to get kidnapped (there was even a very special different strokes on the subject) and they made us do all these kidnapping drills in school (even though the vast majority of kidnappings are from relatives). When my younger bro was growing up it was the rabies scare (he grew up scared of dogs as a result and spent a year of childhood running away from squirrels). Then around when my first was born it was the plastic bottle/vaccines and autism scare.  Then just a few years ago it was random trees falling on kids in parks scare (I remember my mom freaking out kiddos ayso team was resting in the shade during a littles soccer game).


"Stranger Danger" was one of the fear-based, misguided concepts that came out of the sexual abuse and kidnapping scares.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You like to frame things in an emotional context in an attempt to belittle those you don’t agree with if you aren’t just straight up name calling. We all perceive the world through the specific prism of our own personal experience.


Or it could just be that y'all are doing emotion, while the rest of us are doing logic and reasoning.  

It's the same with the left/right dichotomy too.  The left accuses the right of being uncaring. The right accuses the left of doing emotions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. Ah pediatric cases. The last redoubt for the panicked.
> b. You aren’t going to eliminate it completely if the vaccinated can still transmit (and before you say yeah masks newsoms kids got it despite being masked)
> c. It’s already been shown there is an overcount in the number of kids hospitalized from covid
> d. It’s already been shown an unvaccinated under 12 has a lower death and hospitalization risk than a vaxxed 40 year okd
> e. It’s already been shown flu carries 2x the hospitalization risk for kids under 12 and rsv carries 4x the hospitalization risk
> f. The new study I was reading out of the uk shows that 30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them…best that can be done as with pertussis is vaxx their folks


Your #1 response to pediatric covid hospitalizations is to call me a name: panicked.

#2 is ”if I can’t eradicate, then why reduce”.    I will let the weakness of this argument speak for itself.  

#3 is “this isn’t really happening.  the hospitals are lying.”

#4 is “old people get sick even more, so why worry about the young.”

#5 is “people get sick from the flu, so why worry about covid”

#6 is the worst on the list.  It isn’t even remotely logical:  “you can’t vaccinate a 1 year old, therefore it does not matter that adult vaccinations can reduce pediatric cases.”.   What kind of an argument is that?  If anything, pertussis is a great example of the concept:  we vaccinate adults to reduce child exposure to disease.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I questioned your misleading statement, agreed with dad4 that you are wrong, and you blastred out the ad hominems.
> 
> BTW, it's interesting to analyze what it is that you think are insults.


The nonsense and cookoo king shows a stunning lack of self awareness.  Your entire schtick is to belittle an argument and the speaker rather than engage in it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The nonsense and cookoo king shows a stunning lack of self awareness.  Your entire schtick is to belittle an argument and the speaker rather than engage in it.


I questioned and then joined the rebuttal of your claim about adult vaccinations.  How more engaged could I have been?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your #1 response to pediatric covid hospitalizations is to call me a name: panicked.
> 
> #2 is ”if I can’t eradicate, then why reduce”.    I will let the weakness of this argument speak for itself.
> 
> #3 is “this isn’t really happening.  the hospitals are lying.”
> 
> #4 is “old people get sick even more, so why worry about the young.”
> 
> #5 is “people get sick from the flu, so why worry about covid”
> 
> #6 is the worst on the list.  It isn’t even remotely logical:  “you can’t vaccinate a 1 year old, therefore it does not matter that adult vaccinations can reduce pediatric cases.”.   What kind of an argument is that?  If anything, pertussis is a great example of the concept:  we vaccinate adults to reduce child exposure to disease.


#1  It's not a name.  It's what you guys are doing. Same as calling you authoritarian.  That's not name calling.  Calling Magoo Magoo is name calling, as is his coocoo.

#2 you completely side stepped the argument.

#3 you completely ignored the data previously presented because it's what you do (ignore inconvenient facts that don't fit your narratives just like the "masks work!" Bangladesh study but then you ignore the cloth mask stuff).

#4 shows you can't even understand the concept of relative risk.  And you were the one that said it was about "think of the children" and then proceed to ignore the relative risks.

#5 again you show you don't understand the concept of relative risk.  Why weren't you jumping up and down screaming all those years about RSV.

#6 is because you can't show an offramp, which you've repeatedly been asked about.  You can't articulate anything beyond the R falling magically under 1....it's a prescription to restrict and mask forever (which to be consistent, if you are concerned about the risk, you would be saying for flu and RSV too).  You just don't want to be honest about it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I questioned and then joined the rebuttal of your claim about adult vaccinations.  How more engaged could I have been?


Another example of your stunning lack of self-awareness of you losing the thread.  The only question is whether you intentionally do it to troll, or whether it's just you lack of capacity.  I open the floor for debate.....


----------



## crush

*Freeway Killers*
*The Trash Bag Murderer*
Patrick Kearney claimed to have killed one victim a month, starting in 1974. He was convicted of killing 21 males, between the ages of 5 and 28, and he admitted to killing 11 more, becoming known as the “Trash Bag Murderer” for putting his victims’ remains in trash bags and leaving them on the side of the road. He was one of the three famed “freeway killers,” along with William Bonin and Randy Steven Kraft, who became known for dumping bodies by the side the freeway.
*Years: *1962-1977
*Read about it:* In _The Daily Breeze_

*William Bonin*
The second of the “freeway killers” on this list, Bonin kidnapped, tortured, raped, and killed 14 teenage boys. He was the first California inmate put to death by lethal injection.
*Years: *1968-80
*Read about it:* In the _Los Angeles Times_
*Watch:* _Anatomy of Crime_

*The Scorecard Killer*
The third “freeway killer,” Randy Kraft kept a scorecard of his kills. When police found it, the “scorecard” contained 61 entries.
*Years: *1971-1983
*Read about it:* In the _Los Angeles Times_ and its archives, and _Orange Coast_

*"I just can't wait to see [Bonin] take his last breath," said Sandra Miller, the mother of Russell Duane Rugh, 15, of Garden Grove, who was last seen near his home waiting for a bus to work at a fast-food restaurant. His body was found March 22, 1980, beside Ortega Highway, alongside the body of 14-year-old Glen Barker of Huntington Beach, another of Bonin's victims.*

RIP to Russell and Glen from HB.  Bonin was pure evil and he almost got me or maybe it was the Randy monster.  Crush was 14 everyone in 1980. Yes, I was stupid for hitching a ride when this shit was going on.  Espola thinks I make up stories and I dont.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Another example of your stunning lack of self-awareness of you losing the thread.  The only question is whether you intentionally do it to troll, or whether it's just you lack of capacity.  I open the floor for debate.....


No, the question is your refusal to admit your error in your statement.  Do you think anyone is fooled by your attempt at distraction?

Why do you do this, day after day?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> #1  It's not a name.  It's what you guys are doing. Same as calling you authoritarian.  That's not name calling.  Calling Magoo Magoo is name calling, as is his coocoo.
> 
> #2 you completely side stepped the argument.
> 
> #3 you completely ignored the data previously presented because it's what you do (ignore inconvenient facts that don't fit your narratives just like the "masks work!" Bangladesh study but then you ignore the cloth mask stuff).
> 
> #4 shows you can't even understand the concept of relative risk.  And you were the one that said it was about "think of the children" and then proceed to ignore the relative risks.
> 
> #5 again you show you don't understand the concept of relative risk.  Why weren't you jumping up and down screaming all those years about RSV.
> 
> #6 is because you can't show an offramp, which you've repeatedly been asked about.  You can't articulate anything beyond the R falling magically under 1....it's a prescription to restrict and mask forever (which to be consistent, if you are concerned about the risk, you would be saying for flu and RSV too).  You just don't want to be honest about it.


You’re actually defending #6.  It’s the worst on the list.   

Recap:

Me:  A higher level of adult vaccinations would reduce pediatric covid cases.

You:   It is impossible to vaccinate a 1 year old.

 Look at it.  Your statement is  not even on topic.


----------



## Desert Hound

@dad4 is worried about pediatric cases. Just gave him the cdc link that shows not many are actually in hospitals. 

Almost 2 yrs into this the under 17 have experienced 450 or so deaths? And pretty much all of those were in individuals with SERIOUS health issues. 

It goes without saying this age group has NO RISK. 

Most age group have little to no risk when you look at the data. 

Why people run around and pretend otherwise is beyond me. 

Here are the facts. 

Those who want to be vaxxed have. 
Those who don't want to be have made their choice. A good portion of those probably has natural immunity. Question? Why isn't our gov doing more studies on this. 
With the Delta covid is spread both by the vaxxed and unvaxxed.
That means covid is here to stay. 

We should look at the reality and move on.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, the question is your refusal to admit your error in your statement.  Do you think anyone is fooled by your attempt at distraction?
> 
> Why do you do this, day after day?


Again: the "Why do you do this day after day".  You always start it.

Re the statement it's because we have different definitions of when the job is done.  Dad4's definition is shots in arms (like a parent telling a child to clean the dishes or set the table).  Mine is serving the meal (you don't watch for everyone to finish their food).

But then, either: a) you know this and are just doing it to troll, or b) can't follow it and are pulling a Magoo.


Why do YOU do this day after day.  Well, I answered that question....you just didn't like the answer.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re actually defending #6.  It’s the worst on the list.
> 
> Recap:
> 
> Me:  A higher level of adult vaccinations would reduce pediatric covid cases.
> 
> You:   It is impossible to vaccinate a 1 year old.
> 
> Look at it.  Your statement is  not even on topic.


Even you recap is wrong.  You weren't talking about "cases" (see espola: quotes!)...you were talking about "hospitalizations" and how they were soaring.  But now you've been caught backsided and are trying to change the subject.  

I already told you the point about 1 year olds is that they are going to be vulnerable for a long time since they are a huge chunk of the hospitalizations.  There is no pediatric vaccine on the horizon for the under 6 months.  So "think of the children" is going to be a problem for a very long time to come.  You have no off ramp...if you believe your argument, it is for one of indefinite restriction due to the vulnerability of this group and the more severe vulnerability of children to flu and RSV....if you really believe that come out and say it, but you won't because you know what people's reaction will be.

So all you are left with is "think of the children" and an appeal to emotion instead of to reason.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> _*how*_ we get to herd immunity.  It matters.


I obviously agree with you.  But that's the whole thing, does it matter?  Or, more accurately, what matters, how much and for whom?  How do I perceive (not calculate, perceive) the risk of damage?  What kind of damage? What sort of collateral am I willing to place on the table to mitigate those perceived risks, even it is unlikely to affect me directly?  The thread is sort of an exegesis of those voicing opinions on that whole thing.  Ironically, the only reason it's even an issue is because, from a technological standpoint, we have a certain ability to choose this time around. It would be one thing if people were dropping like flies and this virus produced the typical U-shaped mortality profile as a function of age.  But CoV-2 instead offers a kind of bargain. It says "Here I am.  New kid on the block. Nice to meet you.  Yum. Success for me is to reach steady state propagation in as big a population as possible.  BTW thanks for inventing the whole rapid global travel network.  Love the interconnectivity.  So I'll tell you what I do.  I'm going to mow through you like a lawnmower but I'm mostly going to kill your parents but not your kids.  I mean by and large.  Of course just by accident. I'll try and play nice.  At any rate it should not be too bad.  Not in the grand scheme of things. At the worst, a few extra refrigerator trucks (if you have them) tucked discretely behind the morgue and you should be good.  Drop in the bucket really.  Odds are you won't even notice.  Well, except for all the videos on the internet of granny hacking up syntiated aveolar tissue against plastic sheeting while she waves bye bye on a nurse's cell phone.  There is that. People like Gupta want to hold me up as the real Leviathan.  I'm cold reality in a Darwinian kind of way.  But that's so 17th century thinking.  I'm here to tell you that your internet is the real new Leviathan. Anyway, the bottom line question becomes how much does all that matter to you.  And if your answer is "meh, fits in the natural order" or you can't collectively get your shit together about figuring it out, that works for me.  How does that sound?"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again: the "Why do you do this day after day".  You always start it.
> 
> Re the statement it's because we have different definitions of when the job is done.  Dad4's definition is shots in arms (like a parent telling a child to clean the dishes or set the table).  Mine is serving the meal (you don't watch for everyone to finish their food).
> 
> But then, either: a) you know this and are just doing it to troll, or b) can't follow it and are pulling a Magoo.
> 
> 
> Why do YOU do this day after day.  Well, I answered that question....you just didn't like the answer.


What is "pulling a Magoo"?  Is it more than your way to weasel out of an issue?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Even you recap is wrong.  You weren't talking about "cases" (see espola: quotes!)...you were talking about "hospitalizations" and how they were soaring.  But now you've been caught backsided and are trying to change the subject.
> 
> I already told you the point about 1 year olds is that they are going to be vulnerable for a long time since they are a huge chunk of the hospitalizations.  There is no pediatric vaccine on the horizon for the under 6 months.  So "think of the children" is going to be a problem for a very long time to come.  You have no off ramp...if you believe your argument, it is for one of indefinite restriction due to the vulnerability of this group and the more severe vulnerability of children to flu and RSV....if you really believe that come out and say it, but you won't because you know what people's reaction will be.
> 
> So all you are left with is "think of the children" and an appeal to emotion instead of to reason.


Wasn't it you that brought up the "stealing their childhoods" complaint?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is "pulling a Magoo"?  Is it more than your way to weasel out of an issue?


If you don't know why folks call you Magoo at this point then you are truly hopeless.  It again begs the question: 1) is this an act you put on just to troll, or 2) are you truly that lost?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> If you don't know why folks call you Magoo at this point then you are truly hopeless.  It again begs the question: 1) is this an act you put on just to troll, or 2) are you truly that lost?


Mr. Magoo is old, short, bald, fat, and nearsighted.  I am old.

Who is lost?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Wasn't it you that brought up the "stealing their childhoods" complaint?


Now you are just making non sequiturs hoping something sticks, and can't even articulate your argument...you are just hoping it somehow sticks even though you can't formulate an articulated response.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Now you are just making non sequiturs hoping something sticks, and can't even articulate your argument...you are just hoping it somehow sticks even though you can't formulate an articulated response.


non sequitur?  That responds to your comment about appeals to emotion.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Another example of your stunning lack of self-awareness of you losing the thread.  The only question is whether you intentionally do it to troll, or whether it's just you lack of capacity.  I open the floor for debate.....


Mixing up the letters of espola a bit produces "slo-ape". That supports a lack of capacity.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> @dad4 is worried about pediatric cases. Just gave him the cdc link that shows not many are actually in hospitals.
> 
> Those who don't want to be have made their choice. A good portion of those probably has natural immunity.   Question? Why isn't our gov doing more studies on this.


Track down a Pharma sales rep, they'll give you AN answer. Naturaly immunity isn't profitable.  There are a few EUAs that could be coming our way by end of fall that will cover all of pediatric population.  In the meantime, Drs COULD vaccinate those under 16 "off label" with the Pfizer vaccine.  I doubt any physician would do it, but some parents will ask.  The FDA will certainly discourage the practice and hopefully doctors follow the federal guidelines.  Covid has caused significant chaoes in medical treatment.


----------



## dad4

Now claiming a misquote?  ok.  We can use direct quotes.

Me:  “Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common. Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.”

You:  “30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them”.    (No deletion.  The ellipsis is part of the original quote.)

Read it.  Your response is completely off topic.   I’m talking about adult shots, and your response is to point out that we don’t have a shot for infants.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Mixing up the letters of espola a bit produces "slo-ape". That supports a lack of capacity.


Oh, look -- a Grace disciple.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> non sequitur?  That responds to your comment about appeals to emotion.


You can't even fully articulate the argument here....hoping that I'll tie off the end for you.

No, that wasn't an appeal to emotion.  It's a fact that we've taken several years of normalcy away from children.  That's a cost.  We can argue about the value of such cost and it's balance against benefits, but it is a cost (not an appeal to emotion).

Dad4's hospitalization claim is an appeal to emotion because it's a fall back once the arguments have failed (such as the previously articulated point that he's really talking about vaccinating the unvaccinated to protect the vaccinated).  It's factually inaccurate (or at least exaggerated), it from a relative risk point of view simply isn't a concern, and it contains no articulated offrap for when in fact such danger will be said to have passed.  It's an appeal to fear.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Oh, look -- a Grace disciple.


"disciple" (like the quotes!?!?!?!)  I'm not the one that does religion around here.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Now claiming a misquote?  ok.  We can use direct quotes.
> 
> Me:  “Put another way, pediatric covid hospitalizations are both real and somewhat common. Vaccinating adults appears to prevent more than 3/4 of these cases.”
> 
> You:  “30% of the hospitalizations were for under 1s…no shot on the horizon for them”.    (No deletion.  The ellipsis is part of the original quote.)
> 
> Read it.  Your response is completely off topic.   I’m talking about adult shots, and your response is to point out that we don’t have a shot for infants.



Again, you got slapped and have no answer for all the other points so you are focused on the last.

It's the last point on the list for a reason.  There is a structure in logic to the list: 1. point out the obvious tactic about what's going on here (you aren't the only one to do it), 2. point out why the argument is wrong, 3. point out that even if your assumptions are true, there is no limiting principle to what you are arguing.

The reason is that it's a danger that is always going to exist.  So your prescribed solution has no limiting principle.  You have no offramp.  But if you admit that, you lose everyone, so you don't want to say it.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I obviously agree with you.  But that's the whole thing, does it matter?  Or, more accurately, what matters, how much and for whom?  How do I perceive (not calculate, perceive) the risk of damage?  What kind of damage? What sort of collateral am I willing to place on the table to mitigate those perceived risks, even it is unlikely to affect me directly?  The thread is sort of an exegesis of those voicing opinions on that whole thing.  Ironically, the only reason it's even an issue is because, from a technological standpoint, we have a certain ability to choose this time around. It would be one thing if people were dropping like flies and this virus produced the typical U-shaped mortality profile as a function of age.  But CoV-2 instead offers a kind of bargain. It says "Here I am.  New kid on the block. Nice to meet you.  Yum. Success for me is to reach steady state propagation in as big a population as possible.  BTW thanks for inventing the whole rapid global travel network.  Love the interconnectivity.  So I'll tell you what I do.  I'm going to mow through you like a lawnmower but I'm mostly going to kill your parents but not your kids.  I mean by and large.  Of course just by accident. I'll try and play nice.  At any rate it should not be too bad.  Not in the grand scheme of things. At the worst, a few extra refrigerator trucks (if you have them) tucked discretely behind the morgue and you should be good.  Drop in the bucket really.  Odds are you won't even notice.  Well, except for all the videos on the internet of granny hacking up syntiated aveolar tissue against plastic sheeting while she waves bye bye on a nurse's cell phone.  There is that. People like Gupta want to hold me up as the real Leviathan.  I'm cold reality in a Darwinian kind of way.  But that's so 17th century thinking.  I'm here to tell you that your internet is the real new Leviathan. Anyway, the bottom line question becomes how much does all that matter to you.  And if your answer is "meh, fits in the natural order" or you can't collectively get your shit together about figuring it out, that works for me.  How does that sound?"


I think our decision to open up before widespread vaccination will cost us about 100,000 lives.   Most of those will be among the unvaccinated, but some will be people whose surgeries were delayed.  Other people probably have better estimates.

We can say “that’s the natural order”.   The logical conclusion of that argument is to limit ICU bed use for unvaccinated covid patients.  After all, it’s their choice.  The fact that Bob believes in internet vaccine conspiracies is no reason to delay Sam’s heart bypass.  

Howard Stern went there.  It doesn’t work for me.  I prefer a world where we look out after each other.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You can't even fully articulate the argument here....hoping that I'll tie off the end for you.
> 
> No, that wasn't an appeal to emotion.  It's a fact that we've taken several years of normalcy away from children.  That's a cost.  We can argue about the value of such cost and it's balance against benefits, but it is a cost (not an appeal to emotion).
> 
> Dad4's hospitalization claim is an appeal to emotion because it's a fall back once the arguments have failed (such as the previously articulated point that he's really talking about vaccinating the unvaccinated to protect the vaccinated).  It's factually inaccurate (or at least exaggerated), it from a relative risk point of view simply isn't a concern, and it contains no articulated offrap for when in fact such danger will be said to have passed.  It's an appeal to fear.


No, it's not.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, it's not.


Stunning contribution, as usual.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I think our decision to open up before widespread vaccination will cost us about 100,000 lives.   Most of those will be among the unvaccinated, but some will be people whose surgeries were delayed.  Other people probably have better estimates.
> 
> We can say “that’s the natural order”.   The logical conclusion of that argument is to limit ICU bed use for unvaccinated covid patients.  After all, it’s their choice.  The fact that Bob believes in internet vaccine conspiracies is no reason to delay Sam’s heart bypass.
> 
> Howard Stern went there.  It doesn’t work for me.  I prefer a world where we look out after each other.


The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Stunning contribution, as usual.


It directly addressed your error, with comparable levels of effort.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think our decision to open up before widespread vaccination will cost us about 100,000 lives.   Most of those will be among the unvaccinated, but some will be people whose surgeries were delayed.  Other people probably have better estimates.
> 
> We can say “that’s the natural order”.   The logical conclusion of that argument is to limit ICU bed use for unvaccinated covid patients.  After all, it’s their choice.  The fact that Bob believes in internet vaccine conspiracies is no reason to delay Sam’s heart bypass.
> 
> Howard Stern went there.  It doesn’t work for me.  I prefer a world where we look out after each other.


a. The decision to open up was because everyone thought it was over.  Joe Biden said it would be over by July 4th.  Even you said it would be over in a couple of weeks.
b. The only expression about a horse to water.  At this point, you aren't going to change any minds.  If anything the politicization and harshness of the pro vaxxers will have caused the hard core holdouts to dig in their heels.  To do anything at this point you have to mandate it which means dragging people kicking and screaming to get the shot (or if you prefer exclude them from polite society whether ICU beds, banning them from work [see the construction workers riots in Australia?], or banning them from restaurants [see the incident with the African American patrons in NY]).  But hoping they'll change their minds isn't an answer.
c. You (and the authorities) ignoring those who can prove natural immunity isn't helping anything.  A block of the refusers are those that have already had it.
d. You don't get to live in the world we hope for.  You get to live in the world we have.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It directly addressed your error, with comparable levels of effort.


 Back to the schtick I see.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Mr. Magoo is old, short, bald, fat, and nearsighted.  I am old.
> 
> Who is lost?


Magoo always goes off on a tangent, doesn't realize he goes off on a tangent, which usually leads him to crash...through it all he thinks he is doing a heckuva job and stubbornly refuses to get the glasses that would rectify the situation (in part because he doesn't want the glasses to shatter the illusion that he's all that).

I didn't coin, but it does describe you and your method of "debate" (more quotes!) perfectly.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.


Really?  proof?  It would be more palatable if you said because of politics, not for politics.  Vaccine hesitancy is a thing, mainly derived from not trusting politicians, talking heads, Physicians with book deals, etc.   Nice of you to paint everyone in the same light.  

It would be nice to practice medicine without stoopid physicians going on tiktok and throwing tantrums.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.


If by politics, you mean distrust of government, regardless of party, then your probably right.  The mixed messaging has contributed to that mistrust of the government.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, you got slapped and have no answer for all the other points so you are focused on the last.
> 
> It's the last point on the list for a reason.  There is a structure in logic to the list: 1. point out the obvious tactic about what's going on here (you aren't the only one to do it), 2. point out why the argument is wrong, 3. point out that even if your assumptions are true, there is no limiting principle to what you are arguing.
> 
> The reason is that it's a danger that is always going to exist.  So your prescribed solution has no limiting principle.  You have no offramp.  But if you admit that, you lose everyone, so you don't want to say it.


I am focused on the last because I was curious how long you would hold on to an obviously untenable position, just to avoid having to admit you were wrong.

I have gotten my answer.  This function has no bound.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Magoo always goes off on a tangent, doesn't realize he goes off on a tangent, which usually leads him to crash...through it all he thinks he is doing a heckuva job and stubbornly refuses to get the glasses that would rectify the situation (in part because he doesn't want the glasses to shatter the illusion that he's all that).
> 
> I didn't coin, but it does describe you and your method of "debate" (more quotes!) perfectly.


No, it doesn't.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am focused on the last because I was curious how long you would hold on to an obviously untenable position, just to avoid having to admit you were wrong.
> 
> I have gotten my answer.  This function has no bound.


If your point on the last is that it's a weak argument against the point you raised, I'd readily concede that.  But it wasn't intended as a direct refutation (which is why it's last).  It intended to show that your argument has no limiting principle, and no off ramp, which despite you being on this forum these many months, and despite being called upon to do so, you have not been able to show any.  It's because we have a suspicion you'd be o.k. (because of the hypochondria) to have limitations any time a bad flu or RSV season (or future COVID season) comes around, and you just don't want to articulate it because you know how it will be received.

And it's still handwaiving to distract from the rest of your cratered argument.

It seems like we've come to the point where you and I are now not only directly arguing with each other, but now laying traps for each other and engaging in long term side arguments.  We (quite stupidly I might add) are now trying to play chess instead of checkers, even though all we both have is checkers pieces.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Really?  proof?  It would be more palatable if you said because of politics, not for politics.  Vaccine hesitancy is a thing, mainly derived from not trusting politicians, talking heads, Physicians with book deals, etc.   Nice of you to paint everyone in the same light.
> 
> It would be nice to practice medicine without stoopid physicians going on tiktok and throwing tantrums.


You want me to provide proof that many people are not getting vaccinated because of politics?

Do you have a link to your favorite tiktok featuring a physician throwing a tantrum?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, it doesn't.


 The best part about that is that by denying it, you are only playing deeper into type.  You just made me laugh again.  For those wondering "why does she put up with him and why doesn't she just block him like she did EOTL"....that's why.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> If by politics, you mean distrust of government, regardless of party, then your probably right.  The mixed messaging has contributed to that mistrust of the government.


A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.


Too bad you don't look at data. 

The largest group of unvaxxed would be African Americans. 

Any guess as to which party they overwhelmingly are part of?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.


You know what else would be interesting? A Venn diagram of those that supported the big Russian Collusion lie and masking children.

Actually, I don't give a shit about either.  I'm not really as interested as you are with throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.


----------



## Kicker4Life

[





espola said:


> A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.


Should we do a quick search on the Liberal talking heads who went on record with “I’ll never take a vaccine that Trump rushed to market” the. Later go on record with “do your part and get your shot” once Biden was in office?

Maybe just as much of the Vax hesitancy comes from that type of hypocrisy as it does from the anti-vax “misinformation”.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Calvin, by nature, isn’t really a “try hard“ kind of kid.
> 
> Being a boy of destiny is one way to avoid effort.


Espola actually stumbled into a pretty good analogy for the COVID argument.  Calvin (the boy) is pretty much the antivaxxer...trusts destiny to handle things...stubborn refusal to listen...usually (but not always) right and things work out (but sometimes not).  Hobbes (the tiger) is actually a pretty good analogy for the pro lockdowners...a bit a nag that doesn't really believe in the rules (will go off and encourage his ward and engage in the same behavior when it suits him)...more concerned with seeming wise and virtuous than actually doing the work of being wise and virtuous in action.  We, on team reason, are Susie Derkin, shaking our heads sadly wondering what's become of you two.  And EOTL/Husker/Espola are just Moe...just there to stir things up and cause chaos.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You want me to provide proof that many people are not getting vaccinated because of politics? *YES*
> 
> Do you have a link to your favorite tiktok featuring a physician throwing a tantrum? *Where have you been?*


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Espola actually stumbled into a pretty good analogy for the COVID argument.  Calvin (the boy) is pretty much the antivaxxer...trusts destiny to handle things...stubborn refusal to listen...usually (but not always) right and things work out (but sometimes not).  Hobbes (the tiger) is actually a pretty good analogy for the pro lockdowners...a bit a nag that doesn't really believe in the rules (will go off and encourage his ward and engage in the same behavior when it suits him)...more concerned with seeming wise and virtuous than actually doing the work of being wise and virtuous in action.  We, on team reason, are Susie Derkin, shaking our heads sadly wondering what's become of you two.  And EOTL/Husker/Espola are just Moe...just there to stir things up and cause chaos.


All that is ad hominem.  Are you still trying to run away from your error?

...day after day...


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I obviously agree with you.  But that's the whole thing, does it matter?  Or, more accurately, what matters, how much and for whom?  How do I perceive (not calculate, perceive) the risk of damage?  What kind of damage? What sort of collateral am I willing to place on the table to mitigate those perceived risks, even it is unlikely to affect me directly?  The thread is sort of an exegesis of those voicing opinions on that whole thing.  Ironically, the only reason it's even an issue is because, from a technological standpoint, we have a certain ability to choose this time around. It would be one thing if people were dropping like flies and this virus produced the typical U-shaped mortality profile as a function of age.  But CoV-2 instead offers a kind of bargain. It says "Here I am.  New kid on the block. Nice to meet you.  Yum. Success for me is to reach steady state propagation in as big a population as possible.  BTW thanks for inventing the whole rapid global travel network.  Love the interconnectivity.  So I'll tell you what I do.  I'm going to mow through you like a lawnmower but I'm mostly going to kill your parents but not your kids.  I mean by and large.  Of course just by accident. I'll try and play nice.  At any rate it should not be too bad.  Not in the grand scheme of things. At the worst, a few extra refrigerator trucks (if you have them) tucked discretely behind the morgue and you should be good.  Drop in the bucket really.  Odds are you won't even notice.  Well, except for all the videos on the internet of granny hacking up syntiated aveolar tissue against plastic sheeting while she waves bye bye on a nurse's cell phone.  There is that. People like Gupta want to hold me up as the real Leviathan.  I'm cold reality in a Darwinian kind of way.  But that's so 17th century thinking.  I'm here to tell you that your internet is the real new Leviathan. Anyway, the bottom line question becomes how much does all that matter to you.  And if your answer is "meh, fits in the natural order" or you can't collectively get your shit together about figuring it out, that works for me.  How does that sound?"


The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.

I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> All that is ad hominem.  Are you still trying to run away from your error?
> 
> ...day after day...


Errrr....weren't you the one that raised the cartoon initially?  (apologies if I misremembered).  But I was actually complimenting you for a change there....it was a good one and led to a good discussion.  I only recognized how apropos it was when dad (quite brilliantly actually) made his remark. You just don't like it that you come off as bad in your own cartoon.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> You like to frame things in an emotional context in an attempt to belittle those you don’t agree with if you aren’t just straight up name calling. We all perceive the world through the specific prism of our own personal experience.


You're babbling.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.
> 
> I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.



Given Australia, I actually worry about that.  And freedoms are taken gradually, bit by bit, til you realize that they are gone.  Society may not be ready for it...the question though is whether we still get one anyways.

After all climate change is "an emergency" too......


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440674261438398470


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Too bad you don't look at data.
> 
> The largest group of unvaxxed would be African Americans.
> 
> Any guess as to which party they overwhelmingly are part of?











						Texas Lt. Gov. Patrick's False Claim About Unvaccinated Black People - FactCheck.org
					

The majority of United States residents who have not been vaccinated against COVID-19 are white, according to available state data and survey research. That contradicts Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick's claim that, "in most states," Black residents are "the biggest group" of unvaccinated people.




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I think our decision to open up before widespread vaccination will cost us about 100,000 lives.   Most of those will be among the unvaccinated, but some will be people whose surgeries were delayed.  Other people probably have better estimates.
> 
> We can say “that’s the natural order”.   The logical conclusion of that argument is to limit ICU bed use for unvaccinated covid patients.  After all, it’s their choice.  The fact that Bob believes in internet vaccine conspiracies is no reason to delay Sam’s heart bypass.
> 
> Howard Stern went there.  It doesn’t work for me.  I prefer a world where we look out after each other.


I agree.  I believe collective action has a lot of power as well.  The tricky part lies in doing it when it actually matters.

Put another way, my point is much of what we call logic is really a reflection of values.  If say natural order, then logical conclusion is limit ICU bed space for the unvaxxed.  Why? Well, guess what, sometimes that small risk applies to you.  They made their choice, and a poor one.  That's logical, simply a rational apportioning of limiting resources based on choice.  But it's a value statement. Others would say, if natural order, then logical conclusion is just let it roll.   Why? Because it's too damaging for everybody to take a hit for such a small risk.  The collateral damage is simply not worth it.   That's also a value statement.  We can logically try to make calculations about the world around us given certain assumptions and within certain parameters, although the more multi-faceted the assessment gets the trickier it becomes not to let values sneak in.  But deciding what to do based on such assessments and saying this is a logically forcing course of action rather than an expression of values is maybe not possible for us, at least as I see it.  Doesn't mean we can't act, doesn't mean paralyzed.  Just means accept most of our decision making is based on metaphorical computation.  And then going "why can't you see what' I'm saying".


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You know what else would be interesting? A Venn diagram of those that supported the big Russian Collusion lie and masking children.
> 
> Actually, I don't give a shit about either.  I'm not really as interested as you are with throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.


Recent news events have shown that the Russian collusion story was not so much of a lie.  You should try to keep up and adjust your meaningless taunts to at least reflect current reality.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> [
> Should we do a quick search on the Liberal talking heads who went on record with “I’ll never take a vaccine that Trump rushed to market” the. Later go on record with “do your part and get your shot” once Biden was in office?
> 
> Maybe just as much of the Vax hesitancy comes from that type of hypocrisy as it does from the anti-vax “misinformation”.


The search would return as an addendum "but I will get the shot because Dr. Fauci approves of it".


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.
> 
> I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.


We decided years ago that "herd immunity" was not good enough for smallpox, polio, rabies, etc.  Thus the development and widespread adoption of vaccines


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440674261438398470


And guess what? 

Teachers and other adults are not dropping like flies as a result of no masks. 

If only we would look at data coming in from other parts of the world.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> We decided years ago that "herd immunity" was not good enough for smallpox, polio, rabies, etc.  Thus the development and widespread adoption of vaccines


Those vaccines were tested for years before they came on the market as well. So not a good comparison to the covid vaccines which were developed a year or so ago.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errrr....weren't you the one that raised the cartoon initially?  (apologies if I misremembered).  But I was actually complimenting you for a change there....it was a good one and led to a good discussion.  I only recognized how apropos it was when dad (quite brilliantly actually) made his remark. You just don't like it that you come off as bad in your own cartoon.


You wandered off into philosophy about long-dead thinkers.  No one bought that.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Those vaccines were tested for years before they came on the market as well. So not a good comparison to the covid vaccines which were developed a year or so ago.


Did someone ask for an example of a political vaccine resistor?

The technology has advanced a long way since Jenner scratched people's arms with an infected needle to the situation today where we know the exact chemical/biological constituents of the vaccines and institute rigorous monitoring programs to detect any deleterious side-effects.

You may now return to your Newsmax discussion group.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You wandered off into philosophy about long-dead thinkers.  No one bought that.


a. I wasn't the one who first wandered in there.
b. I was responding to the wandering that it was quite clever.
c. You are just upset because your cartoon got turned on its head.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.
> 
> I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.


I see science as way too fragile a human construct for the role you are ascribing to it.  It's dawned on some set of actors our there that the output of science doesn't have to argued for or against, just presented as meme.  You can let the graph = this, or you can let the graph = that.  Which ever way you want it to go. And science can't do jack shit about it because then it simply becomes another player in the game that's being created.  the forces exploring how to use those levers, how to generate divisive cognitive dissonance within our new extended collective conciousness on the internet are the new barbarians at the gate as i see it.  turning rationality against itself.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Ron DeS of Florida continues to live in Fantasy Land as he appoints a new Surgeon General who advocates the hydroxychloroquine cure.


Dr. Debozo, doing just what he is paid for, has already started removing sensible precautions such as quarantining children who have been exposed to those sick with the virus.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. I wasn't the one who first wandered in there.
> b. I was responding to the wandering that it was quite clever.
> c. You are just upset because your cartoon got turned on its head.


The cartoon was aimed at those who are purposefully ignorant.  Those who took offense were, not to much surprise, the intended targets.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I see science as way too fragile a human construct for the role you are ascribing to it.  It's dawned on some set of actors our there that the output of science doesn't have to argued for or against, just presented as meme.  You can let the graph = this, or you can let the graph = that.  Which ever way you want it to go. And science can't do jack shit about it because then it simply becomes another player in the game that's being created.  the forces exploring how to use those levers, how to generate divisive cognitive dissonance within our new extended collective conciousness on the internet are the new barbarians at the gate as i see it.  turning rationality against itself.


Look up "falsifiability" and get back to us.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The cartoon was aimed at those who are purposefully ignorant.  Those who took offense were, not to much surprise, the intended targets.


Who took offense?  You see, for your education, that's strawmanning (just got a small chuckle out of that).  I myself thought it was clever.

You see this is you with your limited comprehension again....the cartoon does mean what you thought it meant, but it's also purposefully ironic....extending the analogy, in this case two purposefully ignorant cartoon characters talking about the purposefully ignorant.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> The search would return as an addendum "but I will get the shot because Dr. Fauci approves of it".


Yep…same guy who said masks weren’t necessary, we should wear 2 masks, vaccine mandates shouldn’t be used and that Covid has killed more kids than the Flu……how do you think his flip flopping and misinformation impacts the general public’s decision making?

Opens popcorn…..waits for the change of subject and deflection.


----------



## crush

Working from the beach today.  I have never and I mean never seen so many cargo shipping containers lined up like big train in the ocean.  I could swim out to one its so freaking close.  WTF is Long Beach & San Pedro ports up to?  Anyone with intel?


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> Working from the beach today.  I have never and I mean never seen so many cargo shipping containers lined up like big train in the ocean.  I could swim out to one its so freaking close.  WTF is Long Beach & San Pedro ports up to?  Anyone with intel?


Yes….has ZERO to do with the subject on this thread


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Working from the beach today.  I have never and I mean never seen so many cargo shipping containers lined up like big train in the ocean.  I could swim out to one its so freaking close.  WTF is Long Beach & San Pedro ports up to?  Anyone with intel?


It's basically a backed up traffic jam that resulted from backorders now coming in, a shortage of workers at the docks, a shortage of workers on the trucks, quarantine requirements at the ports, and the uptick in people ordering goods instead of services during the pandemic.  It's becoming a major problem.  

The other thing which isn't very well known is that parts for trucks are becoming increasingly hard to come by (I had the experience the other day when my Prius battery died and I had to wait 2 days and pay for one to be flown in from Arizona).  If the parts situation isn't remedied soon we're going to have a major trucking shortage too.  The supply chain is holding on by a very tenuous string right now and another major event could send it tumbling.

The clerk at the pharmacy and I joked the other day: "I never thought growing up that I would actually live in something resembling the Soviet Union".









						"If you're shopping for the holidays, start now": Supply chain issues worsen as California ports face record backlog
					

The backlog is likely to inject more chaos into the holiday shopping season.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> We decided years ago that "herd immunity" was not good enough for smallpox, polio, rabies, etc.  Thus the development and widespread adoption of vaccines


I think you may have not read my post if this was your response.



N00B said:


> The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.
> 
> I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> Yes….has ZERO to do with the subject on this thread


In fairness, it actually is pandemic (and vaccine mandate) related....but this "vaccine" thread has gone all over the place including dead philosophers and the tyranny of science.


----------



## espola

September 22, 2021
					

Remember the John Hughes movie Weird Science? It was a simpler time back then and Gary and Wyatt, a couple of socially awkward outcast dor...




					www.stonekettle.com


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> In fairness, it actually is pandemic (and vaccine mandate) related....but this "vaccine" thread has gone all over the place including dead philosophers and the tyranny of science.


The cause has nothing to do with the Vaccine.  Initiated by the impact of Covid shut downs, exasperated by business shut downs and trade imbalances.  Just wait till The 1000% increase in freight costs hits your retail floor!


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I see science as way too fragile a human construct for the role you are ascribing to it.  It's dawned on some set of actors our there that the output of science doesn't have to argued for or against, just presented as meme.  You can let the graph = this, or you can let the graph = that.  Which ever way you want it to go. And science can't do jack shit about it because then it simply becomes another player in the game that's being created.  the forces exploring how to use those levers, how to generate divisive cognitive dissonance within our new extended collective conciousness on the internet are the new barbarians at the gate as i see it.  turning rationality against itself.


I absolutely don’t believe that science is fit for that role.  Science is predicated upon questioning the natural order and our understanding of it.  Can’t be an absolute authoritarian when questioning, only when believing.

Epistemology of the internet consciousness is an interesting thought… but I’ll stick with the laypersons explanation of Calvin Ball for now.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> In fairness, it actually is pandemic (and vaccine mandate) related....but this "vaccine" thread has gone all over the place including dead philosophers and the tyranny of science.


Thanks Grace


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> The cause has nothing to do with the Vaccine.  Initiated by the impact of Covid shut downs, exasperated by business shut downs and trade imbalances.  Just wait till The 1000% increase in freight costs hits your retail floor!


Agree but this thread is pretty much gone off topic.  Masks, trolls, Newsom, science authoritarianism, and dead philosophers have little to do with vaccines directly either.

Truck supply parts are very scarce right now.  We lose the trucks and it's really going to tumble down.  Only 1 major more shock event (like vaccinating truck drivers to cross state lines) and the entire thing will collapse like a house of cards.


----------



## crush

Its all one big scam with a plan.  My gosh.  These are monsters and because folks like me told them to F off, no jabber doo for this arm, their going to make us all pay ((blame me for being born)) cause more shit to roll into all of our faces and cause food shortage.  Go get that TP losers.  I tried to warn you guys.....


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> You know what else would be interesting? A Venn diagram of those that supported the big Russian Collusion lie and masking children.
> 
> Actually, I don't give a shit about either.  I'm not really as interested as you are with throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.


Trolls, troll, @watfly. To expect anything different is folly.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> The cause has nothing to do with the Vaccine.  Initiated by the impact of Covid shut downs, exasperated by business shut downs and trade imbalances.  Just wait till The 1000% increase in freight costs hits your retail floor!


Do you doubt that covid itself was capable of causing supply disruptions?

Seems we had a choice between disruptions caused by shutdowns, or disruptions caused by covid.  You can argue which would have been worse, but I don’t see any argument that “no disruptions” was even an option.


----------



## crush

One reason I ask about the ugly containers from only God knows where is how theur hurting my pal Rick the Realtor.  This guy sells only 7 figures or higher homes in south oc.  He told me one of his prospective buyers is not liking the ships out at sea.   Its like those oil rigs.  Dude says price has to come down because of the eye sore.  Does anyone know when the ports of LA will get back to work?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I prefer a world where we look out after each other.


There's that moral posturing again.  You religious fanatics crack me up.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Trolls, troll, @watfly. To expect anything different is folly.


My bad for responding.  His posts speak for themselves, no need to point out the obvious. (Hint, hint GraceT)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You want me to provide proof that many people are not getting vaccinated because of politics?
> 
> Do you have a link to your favorite tiktok featuring a physician throwing a tantrum?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

If you got your pediatric COVID news from _New York Times_ science and public health correspondent Apoorva Mandavilli, you might be under the mistaken impression that (as Mandavilla asserted Monday) “the reopening of schools has fueled the [recent] surge,” and that “children are as likely as adults to transmit the virus to others, and more likely to do so than adults older than 60.”

Neither of these claims are supported by the evidence.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the rise in U.S. COVID hospitalizations began on June 28 (when the rate was at 0.56 per 100,000 residents), or precisely when most schools were _closed_ for the summer. The rate then steadily climbed to 3.73 per 100,000 on August 27, at which point three-quarters of K-12 schools had flung open their doors. Now that the remaining 25 percent of schools have started the 2021-22 school year, hospitalizations are steadily sinking, down to 2.94/100,000.

Mandavilli’s shoddy article, dissected at hyperlinked length in this Twitter thread, deployed such pediatric scaremongering in the service of adding outside pressure to the Food and Drug Administration process of approving under-12 vaccinations. But a more accurate depiction of COVID and schools could be used to fix a policy error that’s negatively affecting families right now: excessive school quarantine policies.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> My bad for responding.  His posts speak for themselves, no need to point out the obvious. (Hint, hint GraceT)


Hint taken.  I just can't help myself.  It makes me laugh and amuses.  I promise to do better.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> One reason I ask about the ugly containers from only God knows where is how theur hurting my pal Rick the Realtor.  This guy sells only 7 figures or higher homes in south oc.  He told me one of his prospective buyers is not liking the ships out at sea.   Its like those oil rigs.  Dude says price has to come down because of the eye sore.  Does anyone know when the ports of LA will get back to work?


When Port of Oakland gets back to full capacity, it should begin to ease.  Read the logistics section of business rags.  Your question is a multi-billion dollar question for them.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Hint taken.  I just can't help myself.  It makes me laugh and amuses.  I promise to do better.


Well, you bring out the “Troll Hammer” (quotes for the troll) so it is entertaining.


----------



## watfly

Speaking of vaccines.









						Moderna vs. Pfizer: Both Knockouts, but One Seems to Have the Edge (Published 2021)
					

A series of studies found that the Moderna vaccine seemed to be more protective as the months passed than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Here’s why.




					www.nytimes.com
				




I feel sorry for you poor losers that got Pfizer.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Look up "falsifiability" and get back to us.


Turn it around a bit.  For purposes here, no point in getting back to you on it without a yes or no on "A statement is only logical if it is falsifiable". That would speed it up.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Turn it around a bit.  For purposes here, no point in getting back to you on it without a yes or no on "A statement is only logical if it is falsifiable". That would speed it up.


My point was how that relates to science.  Claims that can not be falsified may or may not be "scientific", depending on how much leeway one is willing to give.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Speaking of vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moderna vs. Pfizer: Both Knockouts, but One Seems to Have the Edge (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> A series of studies found that the Moderna vaccine seemed to be more protective as the months passed than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Here’s why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel sorry for you poor losers that got Pfizer.


Damn! Well, I guess it could have been J&J. It's just more incentive to lose weight and exercise . Lord knows I need all the incentive I can get.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Damn! Well, I guess it could have been J&J. It's just more incentive to lose weight and exercise . Lord knows I need all the incentive I can get.


Turns out J&J was unfairly maligned.  A 2 shot J&J works just as well as the others.









						Two dose version of Johnson & Johnson shot 94% effective against Covid-19, study finds | CNN
					

A two-dose version of Johnson & Johnson's coronavirus vaccine provides 94% protection against symptomatic infection, the company said Tuesday -- making a two-dose regimen of J&J's Janssen vaccine comparable to a two-dose regimen of Moderna's or Pfizer's.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Turns out J&J was unfairly maligned.  A 2 shot J&J works just as well as the others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two dose version of Johnson & Johnson shot 94% effective against Covid-19, study finds | CNN
> 
> 
> A two-dose version of Johnson & Johnson's coronavirus vaccine provides 94% protection against symptomatic infection, the company said Tuesday -- making a two-dose regimen of J&J's Janssen vaccine comparable to a two-dose regimen of Moderna's or Pfizer's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


That's good news.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> That's good news.


Amen bro.  Are you on the boosters for life plan + mask or is this it?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Turns out J&J was unfairly maligned.  A 2 shot J&J works just as well as the others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two dose version of Johnson & Johnson shot 94% effective against Covid-19, study finds | CNN
> 
> 
> A two-dose version of Johnson & Johnson's coronavirus vaccine provides 94% protection against symptomatic infection, the company said Tuesday -- making a two-dose regimen of J&J's Janssen vaccine comparable to a two-dose regimen of Moderna's or Pfizer's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


According to J&J.   Y'all just jealous you didn't get Moderna.  I have vaccine superiority.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

To best protect frail patients, smart hospitals and nursing homes would hire staff who have already had Covid, as they have stronger longer lasting immunity than the vaccinated.—Kulldorff


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Do you doubt that covid itself was capable of causing supply disruptions?
> 
> Seems we had a choice between disruptions caused by shutdowns, or disruptions caused by covid.  You can argue which would have been worse, but I don’t see any argument that “no disruptions” was even an option.


Stick to statistics and teaching, you are WAY out of your lane here.  Did Covid also cause the Suez back up?  Just let it be please.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Amen bro.  Are you on the boosters for life plan + mask or is this it?


No one knows.

My guess is the mutation rate falls when global case rates fall.  End up with a booster every 10 years or so, like tetanus.

But that’s just a guess.

I think masks go away.  I’d be happy with winter masks to get rid of the flu, but I think I’m in the minority on that one.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Amen bro.  Are you on the boosters for life plan + mask or is this it?


Isn't a flu shot a "booster"? I will likely do the same for COVID if it comes down to it. I wear masks when required but I find them annoying and a pain in the ass to remember. If I am that worried about a place, I just don't go. I feel fortunate to be able to make that decision without any significant repercussions such as loss of job, etc. I don't count on a mask - mine or others' - to protect me but I am comfortable traveling, etc. due to my reasonably good health and the vaccine - even if it was Pfizer.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> but I think I’m in the minority on that one.


That is not much of a leap. For once you are right. So credit where credit is due.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No one knows.
> 
> My guess is the mutation rate falls when global case rates fall.  End up with a booster every 10 years or so, like tetanus.


So your guess is 2023 since most of the third world won't be vaccinated until 2022 (and then there are the concerns about the lower performing Chinese vaccines)?  Or do you think it burns through most of the world before then and peters out?

I echo kicking's point....flu is every year and this is beginning to look more like flu than chicken pox or even enterovirus, but you have a point: we won't know until the initial wave of infection has made it's way through the entire planet (which BTW means we have a China problem: billion people, China dedicated to zero COVID still, vaccine which doesn't work though they are trying to find work arounds and not all the Chinese vaccines are as bad).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So your guess is 2023 since most of the third world won't be vaccinated until 2022 (and then there are the concerns about the lower performing Chinese vaccines)?  Or do you think it burns through most of the world before then and peters out?
> 
> I echo kicking's point....flu is every year and this is beginning to look more like flu than chicken pox or even enterovirus, but you have a point: we won't know until the initial wave of infection has made it's way through the entire planet (which BTW means we have a China problem: billion people, China dedicated to zero COVID still, vaccine which doesn't work though they are trying to find work arounds and not all the Chinese vaccines are as bad).


I think Africa gets vaccinated after natural immunity.   Burns itself mostly out in poor countries.  Then vaccines to finish it.

Delta/mu booster in 2022 for the west.

China?  Steals BioNtech IP and pretends it is theirs.  Already working on it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> China?  Steals BioNtech IP and pretends it is theirs.  Already working on it.


Good call.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Turns out J&J was unfairly maligned.  A 2 shot J&J works just as well as the others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two dose version of Johnson & Johnson shot 94% effective against Covid-19, study finds | CNN
> 
> 
> A two-dose version of Johnson & Johnson's coronavirus vaccine provides 94% protection against symptomatic infection, the company said Tuesday -- making a two-dose regimen of J&J's Janssen vaccine comparable to a two-dose regimen of Moderna's or Pfizer's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Not nearly as well as the immune system.  But a good second team.


----------



## crush

Bill Gates talking about his BFF Jeffrey Epstein
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No one knows.
> 
> My guess is the mutation rate falls when global case rates fall.  End up with a booster every 10 years or so, like tetanus.
> 
> *But that’s just a guess.*
> 
> I think masks go away.  I’d be happy with winter masks to get rid of the flu, but I think I’m in the minority on that one.


Yes we know.


----------



## Desert Hound

This video gives some good advice regarding the rona virus.

Watch, learn, take notes.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Do you doubt that covid itself was capable of causing supply disruptions?


Corona itself? Not a chance.  In fact the empty roads made Amazon more efficient. Costco was able to mask up employees with the famous black mask made in China with the disclaimer that mitigation of infectious disease spread is not possible.   



dad4 said:


> Seems we had a choice between disruptions caused by shutdowns, or disruptions caused by covid.  You can argue which would have been worse, but I don’t see any argument that “no disruptions” was even an option.


Mad Max would have definitely been worse.  It's a good thing somebody called the Anti-immune system movement on their murderous plans.


----------



## crush

Remember when this clown was offering free burger & fries to get the vax jabber doo?  Free shakes come after you take the fucking shots.  WFing planet is this?  I asked me wife again why TF I chose this fucking place where they try and kill you before your born?  If one escapes Evil Doc looking to add to his experiments, you then have to watch out for The Hillside and Freeway Killers as a kid.  On top of that, Hollywood is really a mess.  We are living in Gotham City times. WTF is Batman and the Hall of Justice?









						You mean I can get this...for this? MMMM....YUMMY! Vaccination Baby! Lying Bastard
					

He got vaccinated? Bullshit. He needs to get a shot alright. More videos you may like: She WAS pro vaccine and made fun of people who were having adverse reactions...KARMA https://www.bitchute.com/video/PFsE1mCPGjeL/  So let me see if I got this…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Roadrunner

Desert Hound said:


> Those vaccines were tested for years before they came on the market as well. So not a good comparison to the covid vaccines which were developed a year or so ago.


No, not true. See my post long ago detailing polio vaccine for example.


----------



## watfly

Roadrunner said:


> No, not true. See my post long ago detailing polio vaccine for example.


Polio vaccine wasn't mandated in California schools until 6 years after it was developed.   I think as you noted there was a serious issue with manufacturing that resulted in 1,000's of polio infections.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> No, the question is your refusal to admit your error in your statement.  Do you think anyone is fooled by your attempt at distraction?
> 
> Why do you do this, day after day?


Why? Because entertainment is what they do for each other. They don’t care others see right through it.


----------



## met61

... you're being played.









						30 facts you NEED to know: Your Covid Cribsheet
					

Kit Knightly We get a lot of e-mails and private messages along these lines “do you have a source for X?” or “can you point me to mask studies?” or “I know I saw a gra…




					off-guardian.org


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why? Because entertainment is what they do for each other. They don’t care others see right through it.


...nice reach-a-round.


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439257913567154176


----------



## Bruddah IZ

By mandating vaccines for those who have had  COVID, @NIAIDNews director Anthony Fauci questions natural immunity after COVID disease. That's like having the nations lead astronomer question whether the earth is round or flat.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> By mandating vaccines for those who have had  COVID, @NIAIDNews director Anthony Fauci questions natural immunity after COVID disease. That's like having the nations lead astronomer question whether the earth is round or flat.


The vaccine reduces the chance of reinfection, even among those who have been infected once.

There is a perfectly logical argument that post-infection shots are wasteful, especially when compared to providing Africa with first shots.

But you don’t get to make that argument, because of your peculiar belief that natural immunity and vaccines are somehow enemies.  (Then you go on to accuse others of weak scientific understanding, completely oblivious to the irony.)


----------



## Grace T.

Singapore hitting new records despite over 80% of the population vaxxed, mask mandates and some business restrictions.









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Heavily vaxxed, and masked, Iceland is off it's peak but hasn't been able to totally come off the wave.









						Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Heavily vaxxed UK with one kingdom in the damn the torpedos reopening is seeing a plateau









						United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




High vaxx and now boosted Israel is also seeing a plateau.









						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Australia may be now off it's peak (seasonality should begin to help around now not to mention that the initial delta waves all seem to have roughly the same time length)









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




New Zealand has managed to contain but not eliminate its outbreak at least so far









						New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## thirteenknots

Grace T. said:


> Singapore hitting new records despite over 80% of the population vaxxed, mask mandates and some business restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heavily vaxxed, and masked, Iceland is off it's peak but hasn't been able to totally come off the wave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heavily vaxxed UK with one kingdom in the damn the torpedos reopening is seeing a plateau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High vaxx and now boosted Israel is also seeing a plateau.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia may be now off it's peak (seasonality should begin to help around now not to mention that the initial delta waves all seem to have roughly the same time length)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand has managed to contain but not eliminate its outbreak at least so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info




At what point do you and others realize this is all Wrong for all the Wrong reasons !



_…”And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?

Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?…

The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…

We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”_


Aleksandr l. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918 - 1956


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Singapore hitting new records despite over 80% of the population vaxxed, mask mandates and some business restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heavily vaxxed, and masked, Iceland is off it's peak but hasn't been able to totally come off the wave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heavily vaxxed UK with one kingdom in the damn the torpedos reopening is seeing a plateau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High vaxx and now boosted Israel is also seeing a plateau.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia may be now off it's peak (seasonality should begin to help around now not to mention that the initial delta waves all seem to have roughly the same time length)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand has managed to contain but not eliminate its outbreak at least so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


Singapore's cases are at an all time high?  

That's kind of like saying one of the mice in the zoo has put on a little weight.  Singapore has only had 68 deaths since this started.  All time high for them doesn't mean much.

Can I direct you to the elephants?









						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Singapore's cases are at an all time high?
> 
> That's kind of like saying one of the mice in the zoo has put on a little weight.  Singapore has only had 68 deaths since this started.  All time high for them doesn't mean much.
> 
> Can I direct you to the elephants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


Err....you did argue that with masks + vaccination it would go away below R1.  It doesn't seem to be doing that.  I know....I know....vaccination rate STILL not high enough.

p.s. you didn't seriously throw out the US with its population out in rebuttal???  If you are going to do that, at least do it in cases per million.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Err....you did argue that with masks + vaccination it would go away below R1.  It doesn't seem to be doing that.  I know....I know....vaccination rate STILL not high enough.


My dad + Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points on March 2, 1962.


----------



## Grace T.

thirteenknots said:


> At what point do you and others realize this is all Wrong for all the Wrong reasons !
> 
> 
> 
> _…”And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?
> 
> Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?…
> 
> The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…
> 
> We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”_
> 
> 
> Aleksandr l. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918 - 1956


I can't upvote this even though I appreciate the sentiment.  I had to read this in the original Russian senior year of college and it was a painful slog.  One of the great joys of learning Russian in college is you get to read Russian poetry.  The greatest pains of learning Russian in college is you get to read Russian literature.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

This is some good news from an expert.









						It's far from over, but Delta coronavirus wave might be the last major wave of infection, former FDA commissioner says | CNN
					

The current wave of Covid-19 cases driven by the Delta coronavirus variant has the potential to be the country's last major wave of infection -- but it's far from over, and even endemic Covid will pose problems, a former Food and Drug Administration chief said.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err....you did argue that with masks + vaccination it would go away below R1.  It doesn't seem to be doing that.  I know....I know....vaccination rate STILL not high enough.


Nope.  80% total pop won’t cover it.  If you don’t have 1-(1/R), you aren’t done yet.

This is not a situation where you can negotiate to get a better deal.

Suppose you demonstrate that the virus is being completely unreasonable.  What then?  Do you think the virus will feel remorse, reconsider its negotiating position, and go away as soon as we hit 75%?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> My dad + Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points on March 2, 1962.


I included masks because otherwise I’d have to say we are waiting for a 95% vax rate.  90% plus masks was bad enough.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Err....you did argue that with masks + vaccination it would go away below R1. It doesn't seem to be doing that. I know....I know....vaccination rate STILL not high enough.


It is probably the bars in Singapore that is dragging this whole thing out


----------



## Grace T.

On Sweden....









						Why Does No One Ever Talk About Sweden Anymore?
					

Very weird, isn't it?




					ianmsc.substack.com
				












						Anders Tegnell: Sweden won the argument on Covid
					

Of all the celebrities that have been created during the course of the Covid-19 pandemic, Swedish State Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell is perhaps the most surprising. A softly-spoken official within the Swedish Health Agency, he has quietly been going about his work monitoring infectious diseases...




					unherd.com
				












						UPDATE 1-Swedish economy powering into third quarter
					

* GDP indicator 0.5% in July m/m (Adds production figures, GDP indicator)




					www.reuters.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I included masks because otherwise I’d have to say we are waiting for a 95% vax rate.  90% plus masks was bad enough.


Is it lost on anyone that deep in the depths of Off-Topic 2 we appear to have more civil discussions than on many of the regular threads? I'd love to attribute it to the high quality of people posting but I have this nagging feeling that it may have more to do with the fact that the trolls have a more limited capacity to discuss mask efficacy.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is it lost on anyone that deep in the depths of Off-Topic 2 we appear to have more civil discussions than on many of the regular threads? I'd love to attribute it to the high quality of people posting but I have this nagging feeling that it may have more to do with the fact that the trolls have a more limited capacity to discuss mask efficacy.


Well if you weren't making anti-vax posts (without actually saying anything negative about vaccinations) in the regular threads the trolls wouldn't come out.  You only have yourself to blame.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is it lost on anyone that deep in the depths of Off-Topic 2 we appear to have more civil discussions than on many of the regular threads? I'd love to attribute it to the high quality of people posting but I have this nagging feeling that it may have more to do with the fact that the trolls have a more limited capacity to discuss mask efficacy.


Or it's because "your opinion on vaccines is stupid" is a milder insult than "your kid isn't good enough to play _real_ soccer."


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Or it's because "your opinion on vaccines is stupid" is a milder insult than "your kid isn't good enough to play _real_ soccer."


To be honest the actual soccer talk has been somewhat sparse. Not much going on in the ECNL thread.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The vaccine reduces the chance of reinfection, even among those who have been infected once.
> 
> There is a perfectly logical argument that post-infection shots are wasteful, especially when compared to providing Africa with first shots.
> 
> But you don’t get to make that argument, because of your peculiar belief that natural immunity and vaccines are somehow enemies.  (Then you go on to accuse others of weak scientific understanding, completely oblivious to the irony.)


Please show me where I've ever made the argument that vaccines are the enemy.  They are definitely subordinate to the immune system and all the alternative ways to deal with Corona infections.  Therapies have been eliminated from the COVID suppression discussion.  It's not so much the weak scientific understanding.  It's the strong scientific understanding that ignores peoples right to due process and liberty regarding alternative treatments that allow them to keep their jobs, homes, affordable healthcare and timely access. Murray Rothbard describes you people well:

_The State is almost universally considered an institution of social service. Some theorists venerate the State as the apotheosis of society; others regard it as an amiable, though often inefficient, organization for achieving social ends; but almost all regard it as a necessary means for achieving the goals of mankind, a means to be ranged against the “private sector” and often winning in this competition of resources. *With the rise of democracy, the identification of the State with society has been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, “we are the government.” The useful collective term “we” has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If “we are the government,” then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and un-tyrannical but also “voluntary” on the part of the individual concerned.*If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that “we owe it to ourselves”; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is “doing it to himself” and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have “commit- ted suicide,” since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, there- fore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part. One would not think it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fal- lacy to a greater or lesser degree.                   _
_
*We must, therefore, emphasize that “we” are not the government; the government is not “us.” The government does not in any accurate sense “represent”the majority of the people. But, even if it did, even if 70 percent of the people decided to murder the remaining 30 percent, this would still be murder and would not be voluntary suicide on the part of the slaughtered minority. No organicist metaphor, no irrelevant bromide that “we are all part of one another,” must be permitted to obscure this basic fact.     * 

If, then, the State is not “us,” if it is not “the human family” getting together to decide mutual problems, if it is not a lodge meeting or country club, what is it? *Briefly, the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion. While other individuals or institutions obtain their income by production of goods and services and by the peaceful and voluntary sale of these goods *and services to others, the State obtains its revenue by the use of compulsion; that is, by the      use and the threat of the jailhouse and the bayonet. Having used force and violence to obtain its revenue, the State generally goes on to regulate and dictate the other actions of its individual subjects. _*One would think that simple observation of all States through history and over the globe would be proof enough of this assertion; but the miasma of myth has lain so long over State activity that elaboration is necessary.  * 

Irony?  Yeah I think you might be right about that.  That you put vaccines on a pedestal while you limp along its effectiveness with mask, social distancing, boosters, and ever higher rates of vaccination is truly laughable......and ironic.


----------



## Desert Hound

_Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and top medical adviser to President Joe Biden, said in early September he doesn’t “think it’s smart” to have tens of thousands of people congregating in stadiums to watch football as the COVID-19 pandemic rages on

--

But a review of COVID-19 statistics in the counties and states that hosted some of the biggest games, along with conversations with local health officials, reveals that there’s been little to no linkage between college football and COVID-19 so far this season._










						Data Says College Football Wasn’t A COVID-19 Superspreader Like Lockdown Enthusiasts Predicted
					

The college football season began in earnest just over two weeks ago, and the doomsday predictions of massive COVID-19-superspreader events haven't materialized




					dailycaller.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is some good news from an expert.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's far from over, but Delta coronavirus wave might be the last major wave of infection, former FDA commissioner says | CNN
> 
> 
> The current wave of Covid-19 cases driven by the Delta coronavirus variant has the potential to be the country's last major wave of infection -- but it's far from over, and even endemic Covid will pose problems, a former Food and Drug Administration chief said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I'd say this is also good news. The 7-day average in the US is about 25% off the peak. The SE is dropping like a rock. It appears Texas has passed the peak. The ones not obviously past peak now are these 28.
AK, CO, CT, DE, DC, ID, IA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MT, NV, NH, NJ, NY, ND, OH, PA, RI, SD, UT, VT, VA, WV, WI, WY
Of those, only the following don't show signs of being near or just past the peak.
WI, VT, PA, NY, MT, MN, MI, ID, AK
This wave appears to be on its way out.





__





						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> This wave appears to be on its way out.


We hit the peak around Aug 27.


----------



## Grace T.

For whoever had "they'll do it after the recall election is over" in the pool, you might be about to collect.









						COVID-19: California considering school vaccine mandate for children over 12, top health official says
					

On Wednesday evening, several Bay Area school districts — including Oakland Unified — passed vaccine mandates for eligible students to attend school in person.




					www.mercurynews.com


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> On Sweden....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Does No One Ever Talk About Sweden Anymore?
> 
> 
> Very weird, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ianmsc.substack.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anders Tegnell: Sweden won the argument on Covid
> 
> 
> Of all the celebrities that have been created during the course of the Covid-19 pandemic, Swedish State Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell is perhaps the most surprising. A softly-spoken official within the Swedish Health Agency, he has quietly been going about his work monitoring infectious diseases...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE 1-Swedish economy powering into third quarter
> 
> 
> * GDP indicator 0.5% in July m/m (Adds production figures, GDP indicator)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


I do think its difficult to compare the US to other countries, not least as - in this example - Sweden has a national policy/approach whereas the US as 50 policy / approaches, plus a Federal one.

I do think Sweden's approach has been pretty refreshing, i.e. treating people like adults & trusting them to do the right thing. I don't think that works in the US.

They do have strict travel requirements of entry, e.g. you can't travel from the US to Sweden, and also have high national vaccination rates 16+.


----------



## MacDre

whatithink said:


> They do have strict travel requirements of entry, e.g. you can't travel from the US to Sweden, and also have high national vaccination rates 16+.


Do you think they’ll open up in time for the Gothia Cup by next July?


----------



## whatithink

Anyone watch the Family Guy short film?

Family Guy COVID-19 Vaccine Awareness PSA | FAMILY GUY - YouTube 

I think its funny how various sites label/cover it ... says more than the film


----------



## kickingandscreaming

whatithink said:


> I do think its difficult to compare the US to other countries, not least as - in this example - Sweden has a national policy/approach whereas the US as 50 policy / approaches, plus a Federal one.
> 
> I do think Sweden's approach has been pretty refreshing, i.e. treating people like adults & trusting them to do the right thing. I don't think that works in the US.


Australia either, for that matter. I mean, it was a penal colony. Lockdowns are in their blood.


----------



## whatithink

kickingandscreaming said:


> Australia either, for that matter. I mean, it was a penal colony. Lockdowns are in their blood.


Nice, its brutal out there. I know some people there in different cities/states and they have nothing good to say about the governments handling, particularly the vaccine rollout. It is more similar to the US from a state perspective and as one of them said to me last week, "you'd never have known who these governors were until now and suddenly they are all over the news & power mad".

BTW, one of my friends runs a construction company (big infrastructure jobs) and he said vaccines are mandatory for all workers because without vaccinated workers they can't get insurance for a site. So he says he just tells people jab=job or no jab=no job.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MacDre said:


> Do you think they’ll open up in time for the Gothia Cup by next July?


If you believe the latest, this may be the last wave in the US (link re-posted from a previous page). If so, it's a good sign that US travelers won't be restricted in the future. My guess is if a country's infection rate is low and you are vaccinated, they will allow travel. It may not be in the next few months but countries won't want to restrict travel indefinitely. July is a long way off.









						It's far from over, but Delta coronavirus wave might be the last major wave of infection, former FDA commissioner says | CNN
					

The current wave of Covid-19 cases driven by the Delta coronavirus variant has the potential to be the country's last major wave of infection -- but it's far from over, and even endemic Covid will pose problems, a former Food and Drug Administration chief said.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

whatithink said:


> Nice, its brutal out there. I know some people there in different cities/states and they have nothing good to say about the governments handling, particularly the vaccine rollout. It is more similar to the US from a state perspective and as one of them said to me last week, "you'd never have known who these governors were until now and suddenly they are all over the news & power mad".
> 
> BTW, one of my friends runs a construction company (big infrastructure jobs) and he said vaccines are mandatory for all workers because without vaccinated workers they can't get insurance for a site. So he says he just tells people jab=job or no jab=no job.


So true.  One of my friends got word a few weeks ago he need jabs or else.  He has to jab up by tmrw or no job.  He get the jab tomorrow he told me at 9am.  Work gives him $75 bonus on his next check and the day off for being a good sport.  He told me he has to roll up the sleeve for his family and I can;t fault him for that. Here's the deal.  Let's stop judging anti-vaxer or pro-vaxer+boosters forever.  Instead, let's learn to live among each other again.  My wife and I sat down today for a big chat.  I feel it in the air and so does she.


----------



## crush

*Follow the yellow brick road!!!*​


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.


The correlation would be tight . . . and it appears you struck a nutter nerve by the instant knee jerk reaction and crocodile tears.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> The correlation would be tight . . . and it appears you struck a nutter nerve by the instant knee jerk reaction and crocodile tears.


Not really. The largest group that is not vaxxed is African Americans.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Not really. The largest group that is not vaxxed is African Americans.


q.e.d.


----------



## NorCalDad

Just checking in. Who won this debate?


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> Just checking in. Who won this debate?


Hobbes is still arguing with Calvin.


----------



## N00B

Seriously?  Llamas?









						Covid: Immune therapy from llamas shows promise
					

An immune therapy derived from llama blood shows "exciting potential" in early coronavirus trials.




					news.yahoo.com
				




If Llama nanobodies turn out to be a legitimate therapy the horse paste argument will submarine public faith in a potential treatment.


----------



## whatithink

NorCalDad said:


> Just checking in. Who won this debate?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> q.e.d.


*quod erat demonstrandum? *

Only applicable in this context if the quote is a knee-jerk reaction _and_  the correlation of the Venn diagram is ‘tight’.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> *quod erat demonstrandum? *
> 
> Only applicable in this context if the quote is a knee-jerk reaction _and_  the correlation of the Venn diagram is ‘tight’.


Exactly.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Exactly.


Link to Venn diagram & supporting data set?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Link to Venn diagram & supporting data set?


"...would be interesting to see"


----------



## crush

Don't worry about the Delta, we have the Alpha & The Omega & Wendy & The Ninjas & The Truth   TGIFF everyone.  I'm glad we got through 9/23. Epic drops today.  Watch the forensic audit out of Maricopa.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

whatithink said:


> View attachment 11730


Quit booze and meat for 30 days and then come talk to me.  Low level frequency is meat & booze.  High frequency, like eternal energy is plant based food only and no booze.  This starts to unlock the other 90%+ of the brain that was asleep and also wakes up dead DNA.  Booze kills & destroys families a lot more than the flu you guys.  I had two friends from HS get killed by drunk drivers.  My friends wife just died from alcohol addiction.  Another pal from college lost everything and now is homeless in Newport Beach.  I hate booze, I really do.  Be careful fellas, I'm serious too.  TGIFF!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Guatemala, Perú, El Salvador  & Bolivia distributing 1,000s of free anti-Covid19 home care kits w/Ivermectin, Azithromycin, Vitamins D & C, Zinc & mineral electrolytes as military leaders invoke the Nuremberg Code & stress the importance of informed consent.

Who is third world?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> Hobbes is still arguing with Calvin.


 Mostly there're buds though.    Hobbes is kind of an enabler but there are still getting through all the misadventures together.  Sort of like Acosta to Dr. Gonzo.  "As you attorney, I advise you to......


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> "...would be interesting to see"


Exactly… but not necessarily.  I’d use the word possibly instead and avoid the premature q.e.d.

…Though I hear there may be medication for that.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Exactly… but not necessarily.  I’d use the word possibly instead and avoid the premature q.e.d.
> 
> …Though I hear there may be medication for that.


You could try the acetaminophen horse pills from Dizzy’s anti-covid kit.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Nope.  80% total pop won’t cover it.  If you don’t have 1-(1/R), you aren’t done yet.


After 55 million virus years and nearly 8 billion total souls and the U.S. on track to add well over 3 million more citizens by birth in 2021, same as 2020, what do you suppose is going on?  Beside the obvious.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You could try the acetaminophen horse pills from Dizzy’s anti-covid kit.


My horses are masked.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The Covid pantomime at my father’s memorial

*What’s especially pertinent to this anecdote? New York City has no general indoor mask mandate currently in force. *Nor does it require social distancing. All the above nonsense is voluntary — the great and the good going overboard to seem even greater and gooder. *The Grand Neurosis that gripped the Big Apple in 2020 is showing the sharpness of its talons.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

cont:

*In both the US and the UK, loads of institutions, universities and employers have taken the public health crusade into their own hands, continuing to enforce strict, often scientifically senseless ‘Covid security’ regulations that the law does not require.* I’ve a sick feeling this *internalised psychosis *makes both governments perfectly happy.

*One shock of this whole Covid fiasco has been how readily authorities can summon a formerly alien, even repulsive set of cultural norms by instilling widespread fear. *When sharing memories at my father’s memorial, I was disheartened to look out on dismally isolated clumps of mourners anonymised by *facial swaddling.* My father deserved better, and so did his friends and family. But there will be many more such oppressive convocations before any of these protocols are rescinded.

And will they ever be rescinded? *It was astonishingly easy for officialdom to manifest a whole new rancid, anti-social ethos. It may prove far harder to make the Grand Neurosis go away.*


Baaaaaaaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Vaccine mandates: a new form of ‘institutional segregation’ 

For some, there’s little value in a vaccine against a disease they have already recovered from, even as new variants develop. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that by May, 120 million Americans of all ages (35% of the population) had already been infected with SARS-CoV-2. *New data** shows natural immunity is six to 13 times more protective against emerging variants than vaccines.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Friend: “Be safe”
Me: “Enjoy life”


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Vaccine mandates: a new form of ‘institutional segregation’
> 
> For some, there’s little value in a vaccine against a disease they have already recovered from, even as new variants develop. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that by May, 120 million Americans of all ages (35% of the population) had already been infected with SARS-CoV-2. *New data** shows natural immunity is six to 13 times more protective against emerging variants than vaccines.*


Great stuff.  I feel strong


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Great stuff.  I feel strong


Me too.  Just got done harvesting a ton and a half of Clairette Blanche.  What a beautiful morning to take in some Sun induced vitamin D.  Just in case you don't have the non-mandated Peruvian anti-COVID kit.  Tyrants hate that shit.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> You could try the acetaminophen horse pills from Dizzy’s anti-covid kit.


The azithromycin had me head scratching a bit.  But with estamos contigo must figure you're in good hands.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Me too.  Just got done harvesting a ton and a half of Clairette Blanche.  What a beautiful morning to take in some Sun induced vitamin D.  Just in case you don't have the non-mandated Peruvian anti-COVID kit.  Tyrants hate that shit.


Awesome bro.  I'm working from the beach again when it gets a little warmer.  The D vitamin has been my cure bro.  My wife is looking into her connection in Guatemala for the kit.  Grandpa knows everyone and I think we can get some.  I made potato pie yesterday.


----------



## Grace T.

Why a COVID vaccine mandate for California schools would be unprecedented
					

The state has long required children to be vaccinated against diseases such as smallpox...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Here’s a letter to the _Wall Street Journal_:



> Editor:





> Daniel Yergin and Matteo Fini blame today’s serious shortage of computer chips on pandemic lockdowns _and_ on a drought in Taiwan, a fire at a Japanese semiconductor factory, and a winter storm in Texas. (“For Auto Makers, the Chip Famine Will Persist,” Sept. 23).





> Alas, only one of these four events is to blame: lockdowns.


https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/Building-and-life-safety/osIndustrial.pdf


> *Factory fires**, droughts, and winter storms – along with hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, tornados, and dust storms – happen every year, yet they never cause global supply disruptions of the sort that have become commonplace since Spring 2020. The only events of the past 18 months that are out of the ordinary are lockdowns; these, therefore, are the only genuine cause of today’s supply disruptions.*





> *Blaming inadequate production on weather events (and on other routine mishaps such as factory fires) is akin to the Soviet-era practice of blaming the perpetual shortages of consumer goods in the U.S.S.R. on an uncooperative mother nature rather than on the iron fist of the state that obstructed voluntary commerce.*





> Sincerely,
> Donald J. Boudreaux
> Professor of Economics
> and
> Martha and Nelson Getchell Chair for the Study of Free Market Capitalism at the Mercatus Center
> George Mason University
> Fairfax, VA 22030


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Just checking in. Who won this debate?


Patience my friend, we are only on page 154.

Although, it seems that the American people have been the losers in the debate.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> My point was how that relates to science.  Claims that can not be falsified may or may not be "scientific", depending on how much leeway one is willing to give.


Had in my head to get back to this but had to find it.  IMO the leeway part is about right.  Falsifying is hard. In a lab you can try to set things up to discount a particular hypothesis for instance.  Even then, though, it often comes down to a p value or some other assessment of uncertainty. Discounting to a certain degree of confidence but not logically falsifying.  I knew a guy once who, in a rather annoying way, analogized generating and evaluating data into decisions regarding dating, as in "sure there's lots of good reasons not to date that person, but I bet you are still wondering if they are going to show up at the party".  If somebody says "here's this data and it means this" and you say "no it doesn't and I can prove that to you because of this" it requires you have a mutually accepted way to rationally weigh the respective arguments and evaluating uncertainty.  That's baked in to the rules of science and, who knows, maybe also debating, although I must say the debating thing mystifies me a bit.  If that's not there intrinsic uncertainly becomes "you can't prove to me you're right and you can't prove to me I'm wrong".  Maybe that's just what arguing and BSing is all about, kind of like just another competition, and I just don't get it.  But it can be manipulated to turn against itself.


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> Quit booze and meat for 30 days and then come talk to me.  Low level frequency is meat & booze.  High frequency, like eternal energy is plant based food only and no booze.  This starts to unlock the other 90%+ of the brain that was asleep and also wakes up dead DNA.  Booze kills & destroys families a lot more than the flu you guys.  I had two friends from HS get killed by drunk drivers.  My friends wife just died from alcohol addiction.  Another pal from college lost everything and now is homeless in Newport Beach.  I hate booze, I really do.  Be careful fellas, I'm serious too.  TGIFF!!!


----------



## Grace T.

But remember, breakthrough cases are rare.....









						'The View' hosts announce co-stars' breakthrough Covid cases before Kamala Harris's planned interview - CNN Video
					

"The View" host Sunny Hostin and guest host Ana Navarro have both tested positive for breakthrough cases of Covid-19 ahead of an interview with Vice President Kamala Harris. Harris did not interact with either Hostin or Navarro before the show, according to a White House official.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> View attachment 11731


Before heading to the microwave, anybody got the Vegas odds on the Balrog?


----------



## crush

I woke this morning and honestly feel all my competitiveness and dualism is gone.  You will all see by how I write.  No judgement from me, I swear.  I had so much pain, but no more.  No need to say sorry to everyone because you guys already know I love you.  I believe in freedom for each individual.  Equality & justice for all and a planet based on merit and how you give to humanity, not take from it.  I see the rainbow you guys, I truly do.  I see the peace train rolling in.  I love every single one of you.  Love you guys and have a wonderful and beautiful TGIFF!!!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> But you don’t get to make that argument, because of your peculiar belief that natural immunity and vaccines are somehow enemies.


Agreed, but it seems that its the Militant Vaxxers that are the ones more likely to make them enemies.  Any positive mention of natural immunity gets you labeled an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Agreed, but it seems that its the Militant Vaxxers that are the ones more likely to make them enemies.  Any positive mention of natural immunity gets you labeled an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist.


I was hard you sir.  Please accept my heartfelt apologies and a warm thank you for having my back at times with all my emotionalism.  I feel your love man, I do.  You helped me yesterday to take time off and I did.  I didn;t read what Golden Gate said either.  All joke aside too here bro.  I have a really good friend like you and he got jabbed and is pro-vax but also pro-choice and too each his own kind of guy and we both hang out with no fuzz.  However, his neighbor thinks I'm a bad influence on him because he is so anti-vax, he hates guys like you now and calls them conspiracy theory people too.  Thanks for yesterday bro, I dodge a bullet again


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Agreed, but it seems that its the Militant Vaxxers that are the ones more likely to make them enemies.  Any positive mention of natural immunity gets you labeled an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist.


Militant vaxxers justifying mandates seem rather redundant, anti-market and, ironically pro-corporate welfare.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Agreed, but it seems that its the Militant Vaxxers that are the ones more likely to make them enemies.  Any positive mention of natural immunity gets you labeled an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist.


My old pay that I never talk to since 2016 and when HRC lost, thinks people like you are now aiding & abetting & accessory to rebellion.  I bad person now and I'm sure they soon look to find my arm to shoot me.  I leave soon for the great outdoors wat fly.  You did everything "they" asked and their still giving you a hard time for associating with folks like me and or even defending my Nuremberg right to say no for any reason that I don't consent to.  "They" are forcing you and the kids to wear a mask after two jabbs and test for the flu every week.  Question bro. When will this end and when will someone like me be loved and cherished on this planet?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> My old pay that I never talk to since 2016 and when HRC lost, thinks people like you are now aiding & abetting & accessory to rebellion.  I bad person now and I'm sure they soon look to find my arm to shoot me.  I leave soon for the great outdoors wat fly.  You did everything "they" asked and their still giving you a hard time for associating with folks like me and or even defending my Nuremberg right to say no for any reason that I don't consent to.  "They" are forcing you and the kids to wear a mask after two jabbs and test for the flu every week.  Question bro. When will this end and when will someone like me be loved and cherished on this planet?


The following few paragraphs are from pages 142-143 of Amor Towles’s marvelous 2016 novel, _A Gentleman in Moscow_; the setting is one of Moscow’s finest hotels in 1924 (ellipses original):

Having followed Andrey across the dining room, through the kitchen, and down a long, winding stair, the Count found himself in a place that even Nina had never been: the wine cellar of the Metropol.With its archways of brick and its cool, dark climate, the Metropol’s wine cellar recalled the somber beauty of a catacomb. Only, instead of sarcophagi bearing the likeness of saints, receding into the far reaches of the chamber were rows of racks laden with bottles of wine. Here was assembled a staggering collection of Cabernets and Chardonnays, Rieslings and Syrahs, ports and Madeira – a century of vintages from across the continent of Europe.

All told, there were almost ten thousand cases. More than a hundred thousand bottles. And every one of them without a label.

“What has happened!” gasped the Count.
Andrey nodded in grim acknowledgement.

*“A complaint was filed with comrade Todorov, the Commissar of Food, claiming the existence of our wine list runs counter to the ideals of the Revolution. That it is a monument to the privilege of the nobility, the effeteness of the intelligentsia, and the predatory pricing of speculators.”*

“But that’s preposterous.”

For the second time in an hour, the unshrugging Andrey shrugged.

*“A meeting was held, a vote was taken, an order was handed down…. Henceforth, the Boyarsky shall sell only red and white wine with every bottle at a single price.”

With a hand that was never meant to serve such a purpose, Andrey gestured to the corner, where beside five barrels of water a confusion of labels lay on the floor. “It took men ten days to complete the task,” he said sadly.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Although fictional, this account of Bolshevik ignorance, prejudice, arrogance, and thuggery rings true.* This account captures an ugly inclination of human nature that arises whenever we are insufficiently civilized by liberal sentiments. *Illiberal people mistake their own prejudices for reality and their own beliefs for truth. Illiberal people are thus intolerant of anyone who disagrees, and are prone to condone violence on those who dare to dissent.

Illiberal people also excel at slathering the worst interpretations on the actions and words of anyone suspected of not towing the party line.* *Not only ignorant of history, but disdainful of it, illiberal people destroy mindlessly.* Today chanting diversity, equity, and inclusion, illiberal people are utterly intolerant of anyone who does not willingly chant in their choir. They demonize all who through merit differentiate themselves from the crowd, and insist that anyone who dissents from their party line be outcast. Illiberal people are as allergic to subtlety and trade-offs as they are to humor and fellow-feeling.

*Today’s woke legions are people who are as illiberal as people become.* They are – let’s not mince words – both stupid and uninformed. And they are motivated overwhelmingly by hatred – hatred of what they do not understand and of the monsters that exist only in their juvenile imaginations. They are comatose to reality.

*Today’s woke legions might not have much against labels on bottles of fine wine. But the woke’s self-righteous eagerness to re-write history, to destroy so much of what has come down to us from the past, and to restructure civilization with brute force make the woke very much akin to the Bolsheviks and to so many of the other barbarians throughout history who mistake their fevered passions as being commands from God.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> Vaccine mandates: a new form of ‘institutional segregation’
> 
> For some, there’s little value in a vaccine against a disease they have already recovered from, even as new variants develop. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that by May, 120 million Americans of all ages (35% of the population) had already been infected with SARS-CoV-2. *New data** shows natural immunity is six to 13 times more protective against emerging variants than vaccines.*


NYC Theaters Sue Bill de Blasio, Claiming Vaccine Mandate Obstructs Free Speech

Citing our nation's "long history of protecting parody and satire" that stretches back to an early cartoon of George Washington depicted as an ass, the suit seeks to defend continued freedom for comedians and performers. "Plaintiffs seek only to be allowed to operate on equal terms as other similar venues, without regard to the content of the speech or to the identity of the speakers that they host," it reads. "The same rules should apply to all speakers, regardless of their message."

Lol! Mask up people.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Before heading to the microwave, anybody got the Vegas odds on the Balrog?


vs. Gandalf the White?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

But the PM sat tightly around the Cabinet table with 27 ministers and eight advisers just last week without a mask in sight


----------



## Desert Hound

Somebody somewhere on here has been talking about natural immunity.

_BBC reports__ that children might be more susceptible to common illnesses this winter because of an *“immunity debt”* built up during lockdowns. Dr. Rob Orford, the Welsh government’s chief scientific advisor for health, spoke to the Welsh parliament’s health committee. In addition to telling them there is a great deal of uncertainty about what could happen next with the pandemic, he warned that the re-emergence of respiratory diseases suppressed during the lockdown could flood the healthcare system. According to BBC:

He [Orford] told the committee: “We may have stacked up some immunity debt in the system where children have not been mixing with friends, and *so they may be more susceptible to some of the illnesses we traditionally see.”*

Members of the Senedd (MSs) [Welsh Parliament] were told children were much less likely to get seriously ill with coronavirus or to develop long Covid.

But Fliss Bennee, co-chair of the government’s technical advisory cell, said children had suffered “unproportionally” in the pandemic by losing out on education and play.

She added: *“We are also aware that there is a harm that builds up from not being able to have social interaction that leads to the development of barrier immunity from exposure to other infection diseases.”

--*

You may be old enough to remember two California doctors opposing lockdowns *because of the immunity “debt” that can affect everyone due to how our immune system develops and maintains itself*. At the end of April 2020, Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi held a press conference to call for an end to lockdowns. They discussed the damage reduced activity can have on the function of the immune system. As I wrote at the time:
_


> _Next, they [Erickson and Massihi] were very clear on how *self-isolation can actually compromise the immune system in otherwise healthy people. Dr. Erickson explained that the immune system is actually built by exposure to pathogens. Coming in contact with viruses and bacteria in the environment fires the body’s system for fighting infection. Additionally, the normal flora, or good germs we have on and in us all the time, also drop when we isolate.*
> The combination of reducing regular exposure to pathogens in the environment and lowering the good bacteria that helps us fight off infection, concerns both physicians. By reserving nearly all healthcare system assets to treat COVID-19, the available capacity of the system in their area has actually contracted._


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> vs. Gandalf the White?
> 
> View attachment 11736


Its sort of an assumption that he became the white because he beat the Balrog.  Kind of like swag for hitting level 30 on Nethack.  Maybe, win or lose, you just turn white after fighting a Balrog.


----------



## watfly

Who or what is Balrog?  Sounds like something you get on your crotch after a humid soccer game.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Who or what is Balrog?  Sounds like something you get on your crotch after a humid soccer game.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

or


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Somebody somewhere on here has been talking about natural immunity.
> 
> _BBC reports__ that children might be more susceptible to common illnesses this winter because of an *“immunity debt”* built up during lockdowns. Dr. Rob Orford, the Welsh government’s chief scientific advisor for health, spoke to the Welsh parliament’s health committee. In addition to telling them there is a great deal of uncertainty about what could happen next with the pandemic, he warned that the re-emergence of respiratory diseases suppressed during the lockdown could flood the healthcare system. According to BBC:
> 
> He [Orford] told the committee: “We may have stacked up some immunity debt in the system where children have not been mixing with friends, and *so they may be more susceptible to some of the illnesses we traditionally see.”*
> 
> Members of the Senedd (MSs) [Welsh Parliament] were told children were much less likely to get seriously ill with coronavirus or to develop long Covid.
> 
> But Fliss Bennee, co-chair of the government’s technical advisory cell, said children had suffered “unproportionally” in the pandemic by losing out on education and play.
> 
> She added: *“We are also aware that there is a harm that builds up from not being able to have social interaction that leads to the development of barrier immunity from exposure to other infection diseases.”
> 
> --*
> 
> You may be old enough to remember two California doctors opposing lockdowns *because of the immunity “debt” that can affect everyone due to how our immune system develops and maintains itself*. At the end of April 2020, Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi held a press conference to call for an end to lockdowns. They discussed the damage reduced activity can have on the function of the immune system. As I wrote at the time:_


This is a thing..happening now across this country, and well before winter.  An intended consequence of isolating children for so long.   Immune systems are having to re-learn in a sense how to defend against these rather common and cyclical viruses.  Curiosly, hand, foot and mouth disease is on the uptick in the Phoenix area.  It's signficantly contagious and can/will spread asymptomatically.  

Fun times for urgent cares and ERs across the valley, as well as private pediatric practices.  Begs the conversation on what is the priority for pediatric care right now, given the numbers?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Although, it seems that the American people have been the losers in the debate.


I see you are over gloating that you go the Moderna vaccine and have joined the rest of us "losers".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Who or what is Balrog?  Sounds like something you get on your crotch after a humid soccer game.


Yes, it's the anterior variant of swampass.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> I see you are over gloating that you go the Moderna vaccine and have joined the rest of us "losers".


You should have rolled with J&J.  Nothing fancy, old school, and reliable.  The new sexy tech may start to lose it's shininess.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> You should have rolled with J&J.  Nothing fancy, old school, and reliable.  The new sexy tech may start to lose it's shininess.


At the time, I just took the first available. I would have gladly gone J&J - 1 shot and done - if it was available first. Well, done until the booster. Whatever.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Somebody somewhere on here has been talking about natural immunity.
> 
> _BBC reports__ that children might be more susceptible to common illnesses this winter because of an *“immunity debt”* built up during lockdowns. Dr. Rob Orford, the Welsh government’s chief scientific advisor for health, spoke to the Welsh parliament’s health committee. In addition to telling them there is a great deal of uncertainty about what could happen next with the pandemic, he warned that the re-emergence of respiratory diseases suppressed during the lockdown could flood the healthcare system. According to BBC:
> 
> He [Orford] told the committee: “We may have stacked up some immunity debt in the system where children have not been mixing with friends, and *so they may be more susceptible to some of the illnesses we traditionally see.”*
> 
> Members of the Senedd (MSs) [Welsh Parliament] were told children were much less likely to get seriously ill with coronavirus or to develop long Covid.
> 
> But Fliss Bennee, co-chair of the government’s technical advisory cell, said children had suffered “unproportionally” in the pandemic by losing out on education and play.
> 
> She added: *“We are also aware that there is a harm that builds up from not being able to have social interaction that leads to the development of barrier immunity from exposure to other infection diseases.”
> 
> --*
> 
> You may be old enough to remember two California doctors opposing lockdowns *because of the immunity “debt” that can affect everyone due to how our immune system develops and maintains itself*. At the end of April 2020, Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi held a press conference to call for an end to lockdowns. They discussed the damage reduced activity can have on the function of the immune system. As I wrote at the time:_


Shocking isn't it??  Funny how the Anti-immune system movement is so set on saving the world that they'll do and advocate for policy outcomes like immunity debt.  It is the anatomy of the State.


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> Amor Towles’s marvelous 2016 novel, _A Gentleman in Moscow_;


I would recommend that book.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> You should have rolled with J&J. Nothing fancy, old school, and reliable. The new sexy tech may start to lose it's shininess.


I don't now about that. I got a great deal on the vaxx when I went down to Nogales. It all seemed legit. By the looks of it they were manufacturing it right there in the alley. So I got it fresh so to speak.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Agreed, but it seems that its the Militant Vaxxers that are the ones more likely to make them enemies.  Any positive mention of natural immunity gets you labeled an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist.


No, it doesn't.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> No, it doesn't.


q.e.d.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> I don't now about that. I got a great deal on the vaxx when I went down to Nogales. It all seemed legit. By the looks of it they were manufacturing it right there in the alley. So I got it fresh so to speak.


get in at ground level.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

_Reason_‘s Jacob Sullum calls out the _Houston Chronicle_ for citing weak evidence in support of mask mandates.

The latest guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends that schools require all students to wear masks, regardless of their age or vaccination status. But by and large, the studies that the CDC cited to support that recommendation did not even compare schools with mandates to schools without them, let alone “take into account all of these extraneous factors.” When it issued its latest guidance for schools, the CDC’s best attempt at a more rigorous analysis was a large study of Georgia schools published in May, which found no statistically significant evidence that requiring students to wear masks reduced infection rates, even before vaccines were widely available.

In a preprint study posted the same month, Brown University economist Emily Oster and four other researchers analyzed COVID-19 data from Florida, New York, and Massachusetts for the 2020–21 school year. “We do not find any correlations with mask mandates,” they reported. But they noted that “all rates [were] lower in the spring, after teacher vaccination [was] underway.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Norway Official: COVID-19 Can Now Be Compared to the Flu as Country Removes Pandemic Restrictions

Norway will end all COVID-19-related restrictions starting Saturday, Sept. 25, the government announced, joining a growing list of countries and states that have removed pandemic curbs.

*SWEDEN TOO!

Nearby Sweden earlier this month announced it will remove most of its COVID-19 restrictions.*

An announcement from the Swedish government on Sept. 7 said that restrictions on public venues such as restaurants, theaters, and stadiums will be removed on Sept. 29.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*“Thousands more people than usual are dying … but it’s not from Covid” – so reads the headline of a recent report by the Telegraph’s Science Editor Sarah Knapton**. A slice:*

Now, 18 months of delayed treatments may be starting to take their toll.  Dr Charlotte Summers, an intensive care consultant from Addenbrookes Hospital, Cambridge, told a Royal Society of Medicine (RSM) event this week that patients were arriving at A&E with serious conditions that had worsened during the pandemic.

“There is an increase in non-Covid emergencies that are arriving at the front doors of hospitals from all the delays the pandemic has created already. Things like people presenting later with tumours, and therefore having bowel perforations and aneurysms and lots of other things that were delayed,” she said.

(*DBx*: But according to the ethical standard that has taken hold since March 2020, these non-Covid deaths are much less worrisome than are Covid deaths. The reason, as we are all now supposed to understand, is that the absolutely worst fate that can befall a human being – a fate incomparably worse than any other – is coming into contact with SARS-CoV-2. Covid and Covid deaths, you see, differ categorically from all other of life’s risks.)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Dan McLaughlin defends Florida governor Ron DeSantis on the question of quarantining school children**.* A slice:



> He’s right. As he noted, like many of the precautions taken at the beginning of the pandemic, making kids stay home from school if they were merely _exposed_ to someone else was a common-sense response to an unknown, fast-moving virus, but one that was not actually based on scientific study. *That’s fine as an initial precautionary response, but it’s not April 2020 anymore,* and it is high time we stopped pretending that it is. We have inflicted enough on a whole generation of children already. *European schools have not taken precisely the same approach as Florida, but they, too, have long emphasized keeping as many healthy kids in school as possible, and have not had much in the way of outbreaks as a result.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Michael Brendan Dougherty is rightly critical of “the overexposed Anthony Fauci.” A slice:

The one criticism allowed to slip through is a reference to his initial flip-flop on masks. But, even more recently, Dr. Fauci seems to be slipping up more and more. *A few weeks ago, he was asked to comment on the video footage of packed southern college football stadiums. “I don’t think it’s smart,” he said. And yet, despite the dawn of football season and the southern states being uninterested in reimposing mask mandates, the Delta wave is collapsing in them.* Fauci can read a chart like anyone else and has surely f*igured out that non-pharmaceutical interventions such as mask mandates make no substantive difference in the seasonal and regional waves of COVID.* *Surely he’s also noticed that every time someone predicts imminent doom from an outdoor gathering — especially one as unappealing to progressives as the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally — nothing much happens. *The expected revenge of cruel COVID on outdoor conservatives never comes. Then again, maybe this is just a case of knowing which battles to fight.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*FREE-RANGE KIDS The Pandemic Is Making Childhood Obesity Worse But COVID-19 isn't the only culprit.*


Who gained weight most rapidly during the COVID-19 pandemic? Kids.

In a study of 432,302 Americans aged 2-19, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found "sharp increases in BMI rates occurred during the COVID-19 pandemic… and younger school-aged children experienced the largest increases."

Before the pandemic, 19.3 percent of children were considered obese. That figure has now risen to 22.4 percent—which might not sound like a very dramatic increase, but keep in mind that childhood obesity can have all sorts of lifelong ramifications, from diabetes to heart disease to depression.

Why were kids packing on the pounds during COVID-19? The CDC suggests several possible factors, including "increased stress, irregular mealtimes, less access to nutritious foods, increased screen time and fewer opportunities for physical activity (e.g., no recreational sports)." Those are the ideas I'd come up with, too, off the top of my head.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Lockdowners who pushed for censorship are akin to book burners (Jay Bhattacharya).......and flat earthers too


----------



## Bruddah IZ

And more from Jay Bhattacharya: Zero-COVID and lockdown are dangerous ideologies. *Devout adherents* have caused enormous harm.


----------



## espola




----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> View attachment 11743


The real Title:

How You Can Reject an Experimental mRna and
Live to See The Horrific Results On Others.


----------



## thirteenknots

Everyone should watch this Video.

Two of the world’s prominent voices 
Geert Vanden Bossche, expert vaccine developer (Belgium); 
and Robert Malone MD, the inventor of mRNA vaccines (USA).


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Everyone should watch this Video.
> 
> Two of the world’s prominent voices
> Geert Vanden Bossche, expert vaccine developer (Belgium);
> and Robert Malone MD, the inventor of mRNA vaccines (USA).


Who told you that was helpful to your position?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

thirteenknots said:


> Robert Malone MD, the inventor of mRNA vaccines (USA).


It's like saying the first person to kick a ball invented soccer.  Unfortunately for this guy, the only thing his 1989 paper ended up giving him was a big axe to grind.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Everyone should watch this Video.
> 
> Two of the world’s prominent voices
> Geert Vanden Bossche, expert vaccine developer (Belgium);
> and Robert Malone MD, the inventor of mRNA vaccines (USA).











						Countering Geert Vanden Bossche’s dubious viral open letter warning against mass COVID-19 vaccination
					

Geert Vanden Bossche is a scientist who published an open letter warning of global catastrophe due to deadly variants of COVID-19 selected for by mass vaccination. His argument sounds a lot like an ar



					sciencebasedmedicine.org


----------



## dad4

I think it is safe to say that, if you are not currently fielding multiple job offers from big pharma companies, then you are probably not an "expert vaccine developer".  

Those guys have got to be in pretty high demand right about now.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Who told you that was helpful to your position?





EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's like saying the first person to kick a ball invented soccer.  Unfortunately for this guy, the only thing his 1989 paper ended up giving him was a big axe to grind.


Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
 alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. So pipe down
 and pay attention to the Video and do some independent research 
on the pros and cons of Spike Proteins in the mRna injections. 
Wiping a slate clean for reprogramming is fine as long as you have a 
clean environment to operate within, performing this procedure in a 
dirty environment is very very dangerous. A human being in the natural 
environment is a dirty environment. Pure and simple, it can be done as 
we see, but the dangers are the same as a Takata Air Bag. It will save 
lives, but the risk to gain has to be assessed. And using this type of format 
can, has and will kill until completely understood. I for one would like to 
see honest data that isn't tarnished or hasn't had relevant accumulation 
suppressed.

The current climate regarding this Covid SARS virus is completely irrational,
absolutely the reverse of how matters of these kind should be handled.
Why would any rational human being in a rational world subject himself to
the kind of brutality and utter humiliation being propagated to " Get The Jab ".
This is utter insanity, if the programming goes awry with absolutely no 
accountability humans who took the mRna have absolutely no legal recourse.
I hope all of you understand just that point alone, unlike the Takata airbag
failures were you see financial and product replacement accountability, you 
all have absolutely no recourse to hold anyone or entity accountable.
That is huge !
That is Massive !
Think about that, no accountability what so ever. 
Forcing citizenry to take a mRna product with no accountability, or lose your
job, or be ostracized from society ? That's irrational and absolutely immoral.

All who have had a shot are mRna reprogramming, all who have had Covid
void a shot have natural antibodies 8 - 12 times what the mRna delivers.

The nonaccountability both for humanity and financially will be absolutely 
grotesque if for some reason the mRna programming becomes volatile 
in the future.

Think about this long and hard before you abruptly respond with some
knee jerk response. Please.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

View attachment 11743



espola said:


> Who told you that was helpful to your position?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I think it is safe to say that, if you are not currently fielding multiple job offers from big pharma companies, then you are probably not an "expert vaccine developer".
> 
> Those guys have got to be in pretty high demand right about now.


Experts don't need an EUA and a mandate to drive demand.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

thirteenknots said:


> Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
> alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. So pipe down
> and pay attention to the Video and do some independent research
> on the pros and cons of Spike Proteins in the mRna injections.
> Wiping a slate clean for reprogramming is fine as long as you have a
> clean environment to operate within, performing this procedure in a
> dirty environment is very very dangerous. A human being in the natural
> environment is a dirty environment. Pure and simple, it can be done as
> we see, but the dangers are the same as a Takata Air Bag. It will save
> lives, but the risk to gain has to be assessed. And using this type of format
> can, has and will kill until completely understood. I for one would like to
> see honest data that isn't tarnished or hasn't had relevant accumulation
> suppressed.
> 
> The current climate regarding this Covid SARS virus is completely irrational,
> absolutely the reverse of how matters of these kind should be handled.
> Why would any rational human being in a rational world subject himself to
> the kind of brutality and utter humiliation being propagated to " Get The Jab ".
> This is utter insanity, if the programming goes awry with absolutely no
> accountability humans who took the mRna have absolutely no legal recourse.
> I hope all of you understand just that point alone, unlike the Takata airbag
> failures were you see financial and product replacement accountability, you
> all have absolutely no recourse to hold anyone or entity accountable.
> That is huge !
> That is Massive !
> Think about that, no accountability what so ever.
> Forcing citizenry to take a mRna product with no accountability, or lose your
> job, or be ostracized from society ? That's irrational and absolutely immoral.
> 
> All who have had a shot are mRna reprogramming, all who have had Covid
> void a shot have natural antibodies 8 - 12 times what the mRna delivers.
> 
> The nonaccountability both for humanity and financially will be absolutely
> grotesque if for some reason the mRna programming becomes volatile
> in the future.
> 
> Think about this long and hard before you abruptly respond with some
> knee jerk response. Please.


The three stooges are not in demand.


----------



## dad4

thirteenknots said:


> Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
> alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. …


Actually, we’ve had three people on this thread so far who know what they’re talking about.  ( You just trash talked one of them. )

In general, they tend not to refer to youtube videos as reference material.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Actually, we’ve had three people on this thread so far who know what they’re talking about.  ( You just trash talked one of them. )
> 
> In general, they tend not to refer to youtube videos as reference material.





espola said:


> Who told you that was helpful to your position?


----------



## dad4

You are not one of the three, Dizzy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You are not one of the three, Dizzy.


Larry, mo, curly….nope I’m not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

I live in Monterey County, where our county health officer is Dr. Ed Moreno. I have not been a fan, as I’ve mentioned on this blog before, here and here.

But I believe in giving credit where credit is due. So here’s what I wrote in today’s _Carmel Pine Cone_, which is our best local newspaper.


*Dear Editor,*
I have not been a fan of Monterey County health officer Dr. Ed Moreno because he has tended to follow the crowd rather than the science.
But in recent weeks, there has been a sea change in his thinking: he justifies his decisions by looking at the data. He recently argued that we don’t need an indoor mask mandate because the case numbers are low, current measures seem to be working, the vaccination rate is high, and even many of the unvaccinated have natural immunity because of earlier Covid infections.

*But county supervisor Luis Alejo tried to override Moreno’s judgment with a new county-wide mask mandate. Alejo’s reasoning? He said, “I think we are just trying to resort back to what our public is familiar with, what we have done before.” In other words, let’s not make our decisions based on data or reasoning but, instead, on what we’re used to. That is not, to put it mildly, good reasoning.*
Those of us, and there are many, who have been critical of Dr. Moreno should assure him that, this time, we have his back.
*David R. Henderson, *_Pacific Grove_

The 5-supervisor board voted this week on whether to override him. They needed a 4-1 vote to impose an emergency 60-day indoor masking requirement. The vote was 3-2 so we’re free of that for now.

My wife called me yesterday when she saw the news announcement about the vote. I couldn’t believe how happy I was about the news.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> I live in Monterey County, where our county health officer is Dr. Ed Moreno. I have not been a fan, as I’ve mentioned on this blog before, here and here.
> 
> But I believe in giving credit where credit is due. So here’s what I wrote in today’s _Carmel Pine Cone_, which is our best local newspaper.
> 
> 
> *Dear Editor,*
> I have not been a fan of Monterey County health officer Dr. Ed Moreno because he has tended to follow the crowd rather than the science.
> But in recent weeks, there has been a sea change in his thinking: he justifies his decisions by looking at the data. He recently argued that we don’t need an indoor mask mandate because the case numbers are low, current measures seem to be working, the vaccination rate is high, and even many of the unvaccinated have natural immunity because of earlier Covid infections.
> 
> *But county supervisor Luis Alejo tried to override Moreno’s judgment with a new county-wide mask mandate. Alejo’s reasoning? He said, “I think we are just trying to resort back to what our public is familiar with, what we have done before.” In other words, let’s not make our decisions based on data or reasoning but, instead, on what we’re used to. That is not, to put it mildly, good reasoning.*
> Those of us, and there are many, who have been critical of Dr. Moreno should assure him that, this time, we have his back.
> *David R. Henderson, *_Pacific Grove_
> 
> The 5-supervisor board voted this week on whether to override him. They needed a 4-1 vote to impose an emergency 60-day indoor masking requirement. The vote was 3-2 so we’re free of that for now.
> 
> My wife called me yesterday when she saw the news announcement about the vote. I couldn’t believe how happy I was about the news.


Congrats


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
> alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. So pipe down
> and pay attention to the Video and do some independent research
> on the pros and cons of Spike Proteins in the mRna injections.
> Wiping a slate clean for reprogramming is fine as long as you have a
> clean environment to operate within, performing this procedure in a
> dirty environment is very very dangerous. A human being in the natural
> environment is a dirty environment. Pure and simple, it can be done as
> we see, but the dangers are the same as a Takata Air Bag. It will save
> lives, but the risk to gain has to be assessed. And using this type of format
> can, has and will kill until completely understood. I for one would like to
> see honest data that isn't tarnished or hasn't had relevant accumulation
> suppressed.
> 
> The current climate regarding this Covid SARS virus is completely irrational,
> absolutely the reverse of how matters of these kind should be handled.
> Why would any rational human being in a rational world subject himself to
> the kind of brutality and utter humiliation being propagated to " Get The Jab ".
> This is utter insanity, if the programming goes awry with absolutely no
> accountability humans who took the mRna have absolutely no legal recourse.
> I hope all of you understand just that point alone, unlike the Takata airbag
> failures were you see financial and product replacement accountability, you
> all have absolutely no recourse to hold anyone or entity accountable.
> That is huge !
> That is Massive !
> Think about that, no accountability what so ever.
> Forcing citizenry to take a mRna product with no accountability, or lose your
> job, or be ostracized from society ? That's irrational and absolutely immoral.
> 
> All who have had a shot are mRna reprogramming, all who have had Covid
> void a shot have natural antibodies 8 - 12 times what the mRna delivers.
> 
> The nonaccountability both for humanity and financially will be absolutely
> grotesque if for some reason the mRna programming becomes volatile
> in the future.
> 
> Think about this long and hard before you abruptly respond with some
> knee jerk response. Please.


You're babbling.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

thirteenknots said:


> Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
> alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. So pipe down
> and pay attention to the Video and do some independent research
> on the pros and cons of Spike Proteins in the mRna injections.


My point is that they guy had two papers that were relevant to some of the early work on getting mRNA into cells.  I've looked at both of them.  Have you?  Late 80's early 90's lots of people were working on genetic material transfection technologies.  His claim to cred from his 1989 paper is that he encompassed mRNA in a lipidic shell, but it's not like other people weren't doing the same thing with DNA transfections.  He made no further contribution to the development of this technology and at some point ended up feeling bitter about it.  Now he goes on the TV and rolls down some people's alley, whatever.  But just because you think he knows his shit does not mean that he does so.


----------



## Roadrunner

thirteenknots said:


> Neither one of you have Degrees in the relevant subject matter, let
> alone understand the inner workings of mRna Therapy. So pipe down
> and pay attention to the Video and do some independent research
> on the pros and cons of Spike Proteins in the mRna injections.
> Wiping a slate clean for reprogramming is fine as long as you have a
> clean environment to operate within, performing this procedure in a
> dirty environment is very very dangerous. A human being in the natural
> environment is a dirty environment. Pure and simple, it can be done as
> we see, but the dangers are the same as a Takata Air Bag. It will save
> lives, but the risk to gain has to be assessed. And using this type of format
> can, has and will kill until completely understood. I for one would like to
> see honest data that isn't tarnished or hasn't had relevant accumulation
> suppressed.
> 
> The current climate regarding this Covid SARS virus is completely irrational,
> absolutely the reverse of how matters of these kind should be handled.
> Why would any rational human being in a rational world subject himself to
> the kind of brutality and utter humiliation being propagated to " Get The Jab ".
> This is utter insanity, if the programming goes awry with absolutely no
> accountability humans who took the mRna have absolutely no legal recourse.
> I hope all of you understand just that point alone, unlike the Takata airbag
> failures were you see financial and product replacement accountability, you
> all have absolutely no recourse to hold anyone or entity accountable.
> That is huge !
> That is Massive !
> Think about that, no accountability what so ever.
> Forcing citizenry to take a mRna product with no accountability, or lose your
> job, or be ostracized from society ? That's irrational and absolutely immoral.
> 
> All who have had a shot are mRna reprogramming, all who have had Covid
> void a shot have natural antibodies 8 - 12 times what the mRna delivers.
> 
> The nonaccountability both for humanity and financially will be absolutely
> grotesque if for some reason the mRna programming becomes volatile
> in the future.
> 
> Think about this long and hard before you abruptly respond with some
> knee jerk response. Please.


Check out the Lasker award announcement to see who, among the many many contributors, is being recognized for making key contributions to the mRNA vaccine approach.  Hint- Malone is not among them.  (And Evil goalie seems to know what he's talking about.)

If you want to learn more about how the mRNA vaccines work, let me know. There's no genetic reprogramming going on.  Happy to walk you through it or send you some articles on the underlying science. There's some good stuff posted earlier in this thread too, though who knows how many pages ago..


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Roadrunner said:


> Lasker award - Malone is not among them.


Upon reflection it's harsh of me to say Malone doesn't know his shit.  That's not it exactly.  It's more like bitterness over a perceived lack of credit and recognition made him lose his shit. He definitely was there in the early RNA days, and, like many, saw the therapeutic potential.  Since you mentioned the Lasker I was thinking about that.  If you Google Kariko and Malone you'll see there's a bit of a history there that almost certainly feeds into this.  Malone thinks he was cheated, but now he's made his mark.  I wonder how it feels though, when he's invited on these programs.  He comes on "inventor of mRNA vaccines" say his piece, probably still tries to nuance it a bit.  Then followed up by next person on the program saying that what he wanted his life work to be about, what he wants to be known for, is all a sham, a lie, or this, that or the other thing. Textbook pathos.  

I personally think these big awards like Lasker, etc do more harm than good anymore.  Like giving the Lasker to the mRNA nucleotide modification people to prevent triggering innate immunity `but not the the LNP people.  Like you say, so many contributed, everything necessarily collaborative.  So many different facets, all have to be in place. I remember Gary Ruvkun's Lasker talk for his miRNA work; perhaps when done like that it still works. He was basically, nothing really special about me per se, its the process and the underlying biology.  So amazing.  If it triggers for somebody, takes the next step, all that matters.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Actually, we’ve had three people on this thread so far who know what they’re talking about.  ( You just trash talked one of them. )
> 
> In general, they tend not to refer to youtube videos as reference material.





Roadrunner said:


> Check out the Lasker award announcement to see who, among the many many contributors, is being recognized for making key contributions to the mRNA vaccine approach.  Hint- Malone is not among them.  (And Evil goalie seems to know what he's talking about.)
> 
> If you want to learn more about how the mRNA vaccines work, let me know. There's no genetic reprogramming going on.  Happy to walk you through it or send you some articles on the underlying science. There's some good stuff posted earlier in this thread too, though who knows how many pages ago..


Mr Roadrunner:

Please explain to the forum your reasoning for making false statements about
mRna, it does reprogram the adaptive and innate immune responses.

And I noticed NOT one of you touched on the accountability/liability issue.

Furthermore, if the products are performing as they state they are, why the 
breakthrough sicknesses.
If the breakthrough sicknesses are part of the “ process “ why is the VAERS
site severely altering/deleting Data.

Dr Roadrunner:
Please walk me through the Medical Data papers you have access to that 
counter the Medical Data papers I have access to.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

That's none of your business, actually

Somewhere along the way, was it World War I, the creation of the Fed, the destruction of academia? – we stood the logic of American life on its head. If anybody anywhere offends, or otherwise causes harm, if anybody has access to something others don’t, if anybody holds a thought not in step with his fellows, the aggrieved must assemble as many cronies and allies as possible, and then snitch, fire, steal, mandate, imprison or ultimately kill those who have the nerve to disagree. There can be no mercy for wrong thinkers, for the climate deniers or the anti-vaxxers. There can be no tolerance for those who don’t embrace the Lord, unquestionably respect the life of an embryo, or see the words of Trump as the golden ticket to a proud future. 

*In short, we have a desire to rule, a desire to dominate others. The pandemic, says Michael Malice, has been the perfect setting for neurotic and low-status people to dominate – to assert moral and physical force – over the rest of us. Another pariah of the establishment, Joe Rogan, in a conversation with Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein (two ultra-pariahs of the ruling class) called the Karens and the wrath-seekers “the weakest minds, and the most cowardly amongst us.”*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

...cont:

What prompted this reflection was, oddly and illustratively enough, Sarah O’Conner’s discussion in the _Financial Times_ on Universal Basic Income, which is *the idea that a government, out of general revenue, can and should afford every citizen a basic livelihood.* She doesn’t like it, but for all the wrong reasons:

“If a UBI let employers off the hook entirely from the idea that a job should be something a person can live on, it could make it easier to hire people for fewer hours on a casual or fleeting basis. […] There is a danger in seeing job insecurity as an inevitability to which we must adapt, when in some cases it is simply a regulatory failure to which we should respond.”
There are three problems here that relate to the way we look at economic and political relations in the 2020s.

*First, what other people do and the transactions they make are no one’s business but their own. Letting “employers off the hook,” or saying that “a job should be something a person can live on” is entirely detached from the way a liberal, free society orients itself. These things are the business of the people making those transactions,and no one else’s. 

Second, *“pay” isn’t something that employers, by virtue of being rich, entrepreneurial, or profit-seeking rightfully owe anyone. *Pay is owed as a result of contracts made between employers and workers. These are  an outcome of trade. Workers provide value for their employers, who in turn pay wages at an agreed-upon rate. That a third-party observer disagrees with the valuation made by either party is beside the point. 

Third, the “job insecurity,” the “we must adapt,” and “regulatory failure” canards indicate an urge toward central-planning that is almost always unwarranted.* Many libertarians correctly object that governments are in no position to make such determinations. *Government* functionaries have poor information and inadequate enforcement mechanisms to will their visions into reality. *In the end, they tend to make matters worse everywhere they act. 

While O’Connor misses this view in the narrow topic of UBI, the conflict isn’t over that specific policy proposal, or even about vaccine mandates. It’s not about the politics surrounding abortion or immigration or foreign policy. It’s not about issues of health or eating habits, about sexuality or workout routines. Those are all downstream from the much bigger, and much deeper question: For what purposes may societies condone the use of violent force? *

The answer is many fewer than most people presently believe. *Because most things are simply none of the government’s business.*


----------



## Roadrunner

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Upon reflection it's harsh of me to say Malone doesn't know his shit.  That's not it exactly.  It's more like bitterness over a perceived lack of credit and recognition made him lose his shit. He definitely was there in the early RNA days, and, like many, saw the therapeutic potential.  Since you mentioned the Lasker I was thinking about that.  If you Google Kariko and Malone you'll see there's a bit of a history there that almost certainly feeds into this.  Malone thinks he was cheated, but now he's made his mark.  I wonder how it feels though, when he's invited on these programs.  He comes on "inventor of mRNA vaccines" say his piece, probably still tries to nuance it a bit.  Then followed up by next person on the program saying that what he wanted his life work to be about, what he wants to be known for, is all a sham, a lie, or this, that or the other thing. Textbook pathos.
> 
> I personally think these big awards like Lasker, etc do more harm than good anymore.  Like giving the Lasker to the mRNA nucleotide modification people to prevent triggering innate immunity `but not the the LNP people.  Like you say, so many contributed, everything necessarily collaborative.  So many different facets, all have to be in place. I remember Gary Ruvkun's Lasker talk for his miRNA work; perhaps when done like that it still works. He was basically, nothing really special about me per se, its the process and the underlying biology.  So amazing.  If it triggers for somebody, takes the next step, all that matters.


Yeah, I agree with you that it's usually hard to just single out a couple people for awards like the Lasker.  Which discoveries get recognized, who gets credit for which contributions, ..  can easily overlook many many people.  And not everyone  gives credit where it is due.


----------



## Roadrunner

thirteenknots said:


> Mr Roadrunner:
> 
> Please explain to the forum your reasoning for making false statements about
> mRna, it does reprogram the adaptive and innate immune responses.
> 
> And I noticed NOT one of you touched on the accountability/liability issue.
> 
> Furthermore, if the products are performing as they state they are, why the
> breakthrough sicknesses.
> If the breakthrough sicknesses are part of the “ process “ why is the VAERS
> site severely altering/deleting Data.
> 
> Dr Roadrunner:
> Please walk me through the Medical Data papers you have access to that
> counter the Medical Data papers I have access to.


It sounds like what you're really interested in is understanding the immune system, and how it responds to pathogens. It is an amazing system.  Do you understand what Messenger RNAs (mRNA) are and their function?  

I have no interest in some pissing match of "my papers are better than your papers". That's odd to me.  I prefer to keep the focus on the science and the data.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Roadrunner said:


> I prefer to keep the focus on the science and the data.


You're a bit late to the party.  'Bout 18 months.


----------



## thirteenknots

Roadrunner said:


> It sounds like what you're really interested in is understanding the immune system, and how it responds to pathogens. It is an amazing system.  Do you understand what Messenger RNAs (mRNA) are and their function?
> 
> I have no interest in some pissing match of "my papers are better than your papers". That's odd to me.  I prefer to keep the focus on the science and the data.


I understand the immune system and quite a bit more, it appears you are deflecting due to lack of understanding.
I have no intention in any engagement as you’ve implied. You know what I put forth, and an honest response would
suite you well.

Furthermore you have once again circumvented the accountability issue I put forth. Why will you and others who
tout the “ jab “ not address this glaring problem that is building.

That is Science and Data.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> I understand the immune system and quite a bit more, it appears you are deflecting due to lack of understanding.
> I have no intention in any engagement as you’ve implied. You know what I put forth, and an honest response would
> suite you well.
> 
> Furthermore you have once again circumvented the accountability issue I put forth. Why will you and others who
> tout the “ jab “ not address this glaring problem that is building.
> 
> That is Science and Data.


Idiot.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Idiot.


Your hostility and ignorance will not sway the truth.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Your hostility and ignorance will not sway the truth.


No doubt.


----------



## NorCalDad

thirteenknots said:


> I understand the immune system and quite a bit more, it appears you are deflecting due to lack of understanding.
> I have no intention in any engagement as you’ve implied. You know what I put forth, and an honest response would
> suite you well.
> 
> Furthermore you have once again circumvented the accountability issue I put forth. Why will you and others who
> tout the “ jab “ not address this glaring problem that is building.
> 
> That is Science and Data.


Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....

Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....
> 
> Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


I would like to know what name he used before he was banned the last time.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....
> 
> Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


Jay Bhattacharya on Twitter:

Public health has earned the distrust of minority communities by promoting ideas that have harmed minorities differentially like “essential/non-essential”, lockdown, zoom for public school kids, vax passports,… Experts who argued for these terrible ideas should be ashamed.


----------



## GoldenGate

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....
> 
> Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


I'll take a stab at it.

Science says natural immunity works great for all of those for whom it works. There is therefore no need to wear a mask or get vaccinated because 100% of those people who do not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid will not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid. 

We have had 18 months to learn how to treat Covid and limit its transmission, and have implemented a way to protect ourselves from dying with 99.99999999% success if we get it.  So make sure to eat horse paste, not wear masks or socially distance under any circumstances, and absolutely, positively do not get vaccinated. The proof is states like MS, LA, AZ, TX and FL, which have had 18 months to learn and have used that information very wisely. Bigly in fact.

And by the way, it's also all a hoax.  Everyone is really just dying in motorcycle accidents and from gunshot wounds when they aren't voting fraudulently in elections. But remember the horse paste just in case. You should use your freedom to put anything you want in your body - other than vaccines of course.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....
> 
> Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


More from Jay Bhattacharya on Twitter:

It is irrational and cruel to permit the vaxxed to have liberty while forcing recovered COVID patients with better immunity — often poor, minority, and working-class “essentials” — to the shadows of society.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

It's therapeutic when like-minded trolls talk to each other (or themselves). It's as close to a real friend as they have.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> Science says natural immunity works great for all of those for whom it works. There is therefore no need to wear a mask or get vaccinated because 100% of those people who do not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid will not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid.
> 
> We have had 18 months to learn how to treat Covid and limit its transmission, and have implemented a way to protect ourselves from dying with 99.99999999% success if we get it.  So make sure to eat horse paste, not wear masks or socially distance under any circumstances, and absolutely, positively do not get vaccinated. The proof is states like MS, LA, AZ, TX and FL, which have had 18 months to learn and have used that information very wisely. Bigly in fact.
> 
> And by the way, it's also all a hoax.  Everyone is really just dying in motorcycle accidents and from gunshot wounds when they aren't voting fraudulently in elections. But remember the horse paste just in case. You should use your freedom to put anything you want in your body - other than vaccines of course.


Awwww, you're mad your maker mandated immune systems.  Poor baby.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> Science says natural immunity works great for all of those for whom it works. There is therefore no need to wear a mask or get vaccinated because 100% of those people who do not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid will not die or suffer long term consequences from Covid.
> 
> We have had 18 months to learn how to treat Covid and limit its transmission, and have implemented a way to protect ourselves from dying with 99.99999999% success if we get it.  So make sure to eat horse paste, not wear masks or socially distance under any circumstances, and absolutely, positively do not get vaccinated. The proof is states like MS, LA, AZ, TX and FL, which have had 18 months to learn and have used that information very wisely. Bigly in fact.
> 
> And by the way, it's also all a hoax.  Everyone is really just dying in motorcycle accidents and from gunshot wounds when they aren't voting fraudulently in elections. But remember the horse paste just in case. You should use your freedom to put anything you want in your body - other than vaccines of course.


What is this “horse paste” you keep referring to?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone coming to @thirteenknots's defense?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller? .....crickets....
> 
> Let me get some popcorn.  I want to see who can contort their argumentative skills/styles in order to be inclusive to folks like this.


Tell me how smart you people are again.  Lol!

The Great Barrington Declaration

The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.

Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.

As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.

Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.

Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.*

SIGN THE DECLARATION
*Co-signers*
Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners
Dr. Alexander Walker, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA

Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
Dr. Angus Dalgleish, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England

Dr. Anthony J Brookes, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England

Dr. Annie Janvier, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
Dr. Ariel Munitz, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany

Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
Dr. David Katz, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA

Dr. David Livermore, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England

Dr. Eitan Friedman, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ellen Townsend, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England

Dr. Eyal Shahar, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA
Dr. Florian Limbourg, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany

Dr. Gabriela Gomes, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland
Dr. Gerhard Krönke, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany

Dr. Gesine Weckmann, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany

Dr. Günter Kampf, associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany

Dr. Helen Colhoun, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden
Dr. Karol Sikora, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England

Dr. Laura Lazzeroni, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA
Dr. Lisa White, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England

Dr. Mario Recker, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England
Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England

Dr. Matthew Strauss, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
Dr. Michael Jackson, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Dr. Michael Levitt, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

Dr. Mike Hulme, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England

Dr. Motti Gerlic, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Partha P. Majumder, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India

Dr. Paul McKeigue, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Dr. Rajiv Bhatia, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA

Dr. Rodney Sturdivant, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
Dr. Simon Thornley, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand
Dr. Simon Wood, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Stephen Bremner,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England

Dr. Sylvia Fogel, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA

Tom Nicholson, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA
Dr. Udi Qimron, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany

Dr. Uri Gavish, biomedical consultant, Israel

Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> What is this “horse paste” you keep referring to?


It seals off the plume from your mask at NFL games and the Emmys.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


>


The incomparable Scott Sterling


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*I have noticed a growing tendency toward the public expression of a particular kind of envy, an angry fear that someone, somewhere might be getting an undeserved benefit.* *Those who want to make policy based on this view, of course, would deny my claim that the motivation is envy, and instead would argue for “social justice” as the description.* *Regardless, the impulse is pernicious, seeking to deny unearned benefits to others even at a cost to oneself. I propose to dub this impulse “Nutzenschmerz,” or the indignant outrage over someone getting to use something I don’t have.

The initial distribution of the (eagerly awaited, by many) Covid-19 vaccines, especially in states where “social justice” is apotheosized, was a carnival of Nutzenschmerz.* There were paroxysms of anger over the idea that someone might be jumping the queue, *getting a vaccine they didn’t deserve; some claimed that “justice” should be the only consideration in deciding who got the vaccine.

The mania for “justice” reached such extreme levels that on December 28, 2020 New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed an order imposing strict penalties—with fines up to $1 million per offense—for any injustice in the dispensation of vaccines. *Since the criteria for “justice” were vague, and in fact contradictory, this meant that a large number of perfectly safe doses of the vaccine were intentionally thrown away in the first month, rather than give anyone an undeserved benefit. *Cuomo, with the enthusiastic support of the legislature at the time, went so far as to threaten to revoke the medical license of any health care worker who gave a vaccine to anyone not in the priority list, even if the alternative was literally to throw the vaccine away because it spoiled quickly after being opened.*

Liz Wolfe (in _Reason_ magazine) illustrates the problem of being primarily concerned, *to the exclusion of all other factors, with denying others any undeserved benefit. That is the essence of my concept of Nutzenschmerz.

The state is wrong to put these medical workers in a horrifying ethical bind where they must choose between violating the governor’s rules to help save people’s lives, or throwing scarce resources out at a time when we’re desperately attempting to reach herd immunity and avoid higher death tolls. Especially since vaccinating more people, whoever they are, is a Pareto improvement—something that would benefit at least one person (in this case, more than that, if vaccines reduce transmission too) while harming none.* (1/8/21; emphasis added)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The incomparable Scott Sterling


This statement of the problem reveals a gap between the way many economists think of the problem, and how politicians think of it. It is generally assumed, in blackboard economics, that a strong Pareto improvement—everyone is better off, and no one is worse off—is always unobjectionable. More importantly, it is simply assumed that even a weak Pareto improvement—at least one person is better off, and no one is worse off—is always easily implemented as public policy in a democracy. It’s actually the definition of “efficiency,” and efficiency is the goal of public policy.  

But that’s clearly not true. A weak Pareto improvement, say giving any available person a vaccine dose if that dose would otherwise be thrown away, is precisely what many people object to. *The idea that a benefit is undeserved implies that it should not be awarded, even if the alternative is literally dumping the benefit down the sink. The idea that public policy should be concerned first and foremost with preventing those undeserved harms, and confiscating unearned benefits from others, is the central premise of the new rendering of social justice and political responsibility. Nutzenschmerz is the denial of weak Pareto improvements to all members of the society, based on the insistence on a fanatically strict notion of desert. Any undeserved benefit is unjust; any cost incurred in correcting injustice is justified by the emotional group-think of Nutzenschmerz. *


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> *I have noticed a growing tendency toward the public expression of a particular kind of envy, an angry fear that someone, somewhere might be getting an undeserved benefit.* *Those who want to make policy based on this view, of course, would deny my claim that the motivation is envy, and instead would argue for “social justice” as the description.* *Regardless, the impulse is pernicious, seeking to deny unearned benefits to others even at a cost to oneself. I propose to dub this impulse “Nutzenschmerz,” or the indignant outrage over someone getting to use something I don’t have.
> 
> The initial distribution of the (eagerly awaited, by many) Covid-19 vaccines, especially in states where “social justice” is apotheosized, was a carnival of Nutzenschmerz.* There were paroxysms of anger over the idea that someone might be jumping the queue, *getting a vaccine they didn’t deserve; some claimed that “justice” should be the only consideration in deciding who got the vaccine.
> 
> The mania for “justice” reached such extreme levels that on December 28, 2020 New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed an order imposing strict penalties—with fines up to $1 million per offense—for any injustice in the dispensation of vaccines. *Since the criteria for “justice” were vague, and in fact contradictory, this meant that a large number of perfectly safe doses of the vaccine were intentionally thrown away in the first month, rather than give anyone an undeserved benefit. *Cuomo, with the enthusiastic support of the legislature at the time, went so far as to threaten to revoke the medical license of any health care worker who gave a vaccine to anyone not in the priority list, even if the alternative was literally to throw the vaccine away because it spoiled quickly after being opened.*
> 
> Liz Wolfe (in _Reason_ magazine) illustrates the problem of being primarily concerned, *to the exclusion of all other factors, with denying others any undeserved benefit. That is the essence of my concept of Nutzenschmerz.
> 
> The state is wrong to put these medical workers in a horrifying ethical bind where they must choose between violating the governor’s rules to help save people’s lives, or throwing scarce resources out at a time when we’re desperately attempting to reach herd immunity and avoid higher death tolls. Especially since vaccinating more people, whoever they are, is a Pareto improvement—something that would benefit at least one person (in this case, more than that, if vaccines reduce transmission too) while harming none.* (1/8/21; emphasis added)


You should add more color to your posts.  I don't think this adequately conveys the importance of what you are saying to the other schizophrenics.


----------



## Multi Sport

Keepermom2 said:


> Unable to effectively or intelligently respond so resorting to a sexist response is all you got. Enough said!


Deflection much? Hopefully you didn't strain anything in the process...


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Another country realizes it cannot fight reality.

The only question is how long it takes other countries to come to that conclusion.









						Rowdy celebrations erupt in Norway as COVID restrictions end
					

HELSINKI (AP) — Police in Norway on Sunday reported dozens of disturbances and violent clashes including mass brawls in the Nordic country’s big cities after streets, bars, restaurants and nightclubs were filled with people celebrating the end of COVID-19 restrictions that lasted for more than a...




					apnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

Good article on relative risks and age.  The risks to unvaccinated children are less than the risks in vaccinated adults and there's 7x as much hospitalization risk from RSV.  Age is still the greatest predictor of risk even with vaccines (which essentially bump you down a few decades in risk).  It's why they are trying boosters in the elderly, even though they aren't sure what the benefit might be and how much it really lowers you down the age bracketts.




			https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-status-age-discrimination.html


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> You should add more color to your posts.  I don't think this adequately conveys the importance of what you are saying to the other schizophrenics.


q.e.d.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Good article on relative risks and age.  The risks to unvaccinated children are less than the risks in vaccinated adults and there's 7x as much hospitalization risk from RSV.  Age is still the greatest predictor of risk even with vaccines (which essentially bump you down a few decades in risk).  It's why they are trying boosters in the elderly, even though they aren't sure what the benefit might be and how much it really lowers you down the age bracketts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-status-age-discrimination.html


The sad thing about the article is that the NY Mag and most other major news outlets have hyped covid without discussing age related risks.

The lack of self reflection is shown in the headline of the article.

*The Public Continues to Underestimate COVID’s Age Discrimination*

If our press had actually provided data to the public regarding age and risk, you would not see the above headline. 

The rest of the article is fine. We just needed this type of data getting out to the public from early on. And by early on, it was apparent 2 or so months in who was really at risk. And those who are at risk have not really changed since.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Good article on relative risks and age.  The risks to unvaccinated children are less than the risks in vaccinated adults and there's 7x as much hospitalization risk from RSV.  Age is still the greatest predictor of risk even with vaccines (which essentially bump you down a few decades in risk).  It's why they are trying boosters in the elderly, even though they aren't sure what the benefit might be and how much it really lowers you down the age bracketts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-status-age-discrimination.html


Good thing unvaccinated children don't transmit Covid to adults.  Now if only we can stop the spontaneous generation of Covid in hospitals and nursing homes. We know that employees aren't getting it from their kids and bringing it into work - since we know it spontaneously generates among old people.

It's so weird that anti-vaxxers are so "worried" about a virus that kills maybe 14,000 annually in a bad year, but not one that kills 600,000. It's almost, no exactly, like they're feigning concern and using it as one of a million excuses to rationalize why they're ok killing everyone over 65 because they're so mentally weak that wearing a mask and getting vaccinated is too much for them.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> If our press had actually provided data to the public regarding age and risk, you would not see the above headline.


It's what happens when a "free" press prioritizes a cause over informing the public. Way too much, "you can't handle the truth". They undermine trust and give a big assist to conspiracy theory advocates.


----------



## dad4

Turns out the whole anti-vax movement is an evil plot by Howard Stern and Nancy Pelosi.

The idea is to trick Republicans into refusing the vaccine, thus giving Democrats a very slight edge in every swing district in the country.  And you guys fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.









						Nolte: Howard Stern Proves Democrats Want Unvaccinated Trump Voters Dead
					

Do you want to know why I think Howard Stern is going full-monster with his mockery of three fellow human beings who died of the coronavirus? Because leftists like Stern and CNNLOL and Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Anthony Fauci are deliberately looking to manipulate Trump supporters into not...




					www.breitbart.com
				




I think mini-EOTL was in on it, too.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Good thing unvaccinated children don't transmit Covid to adults.  Now if only we can stop the spontaneous generation of Covid in hospitals and nursing homes. We know that employees aren't getting it from their kids and bringing it into work - since we know it spontaneously generates among old people.
> 
> It's so weird that anti-vaxxers are so "worried" about a virus that kills maybe 14,000 annually in a bad year, but not one that kills 600,000. It's almost, no exactly, like they're feigning concern and using it as one of a million excuses to rationalize why they're ok killing everyone over 65 because they're so mentally weak that wearing a mask and getting vaccinated is too much for them.


Stop Clownin’ around.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Turns out the whole anti-vax movement is an evil plot by Howard Stern and Nancy Pelosi.
> 
> The idea is to trick Republicans into refusing the vaccine, thus giving Democrats a very slight edge in every swing district in the country.  And you guys fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nolte: Howard Stern Proves Democrats Want Unvaccinated Trump Voters Dead
> 
> 
> Do you want to know why I think Howard Stern is going full-monster with his mockery of three fellow human beings who died of the coronavirus? Because leftists like Stern and CNNLOL and Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Anthony Fauci are deliberately looking to manipulate Trump supporters into not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think mini-EOTL was in on it, too.


Anti-immune system movement zealots are sounding awful desperate nowadays.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Stop Clownin’ around.


Sorry it wasn't colorful enough for you to take seriously, so I fixed it....

Good thing unvaccinated children don't transmit Covid to adults. Now if only we can stop the spontaneous generation of Covid in hospitals and nursing homes. We know that employees aren't getting it from their kids and bringing it into work - sin*ce we know it spontaneously generates among old people.*

I*t's so weir*d that anti-vaxxers are so "worried" about a virus that kills maybe 14,000 annually in a bad year, but not one that kills 600,000. It's almost, no exactly, like they're feigni*ng concern* and using it as one of a million excuses to rationalize why they're ok killing everyone over 65 because they're so mentally weak that wearing a mask and getting vaccinated is too mu*ch for them*


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's what happens when a "free" press prioritizes a cause over informing the public. Way too much, "you can't handle the truth". They undermine trust and give a big assist to conspiracy theory advocates.


They are giving misinformation in a sense by not providing context. 

The implication being if you just looked at headlines, etc of the major news orgs one would think the virus is deadly across age groups. That in turn has lead people/politicians to do/demand things that do not correlate with actual risk. 

It has to be intentional on their part because the data has been there regarding age and risk. This data has been readily available and yet they frame their stories in a way that doesn't match up with data. 

Classic example? Schools, kids and vaccines.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> Sorry it wasn't colorful enough for you to take seriously, so I fixed it....
> 
> Good thing unvaccinated children don't transmit Covid to adults. Now if only we can stop the spontaneous generation of Covid in hospitals and nursing homes. We know that employees aren't getting it from their kids and bringing it into work - sin*ce we know it spontaneously generates among old people.*
> 
> I*t's so weir*d that anti-vaxxers are so "worried" about a virus that kills maybe 14,000 annually in a bad year, but not one that kills 600,000. It's almost, no exactly, like they're feigni*ng concern* and using it as one of a million excuses to rationalize why they're ok killing everyone over 65 because they're so mentally weak that wearing a mask and getting vaccinated is too mu*ch for them*


“Evidence from studies primarily done before vaccine approval for those 12 years of age and older suggests that staff-to-staff transmission is more common than transmission from students to staff, staff to student, or student to student.46, 50, 54  For example, in the large UK study, most outbreak cases were associated with an index case (initial case) in a staff member.46 Therefore, school interventions should include prevention strategies to reduce the transmission potential of staff members.” -CDC

Odd.  Where did all those community based adult cases come from again?… you know the ones that didn’t magically come from the 5yr olds in Kindergarten?


----------



## GoldenGate

N00B said:


> “Evidence from studies primarily done before vaccine approval for those 12 years of age and older suggests that staff-to-staff transmission is more common than transmission from students to staff, staff to student, or student to student.46, 50, 54  For example, in the large UK study, most outbreak cases were associated with an index case (initial case) in a staff member.46 Therefore, school interventions should include prevention strategies to reduce the transmission potential of staff members.” -CDC
> 
> Odd.  Where did all those community based adult cases come from again?… you know the ones that didn’t magically come from the 5yr olds in Kindergarten?


Apparently the definition of "more common" now means "always" to anti-vaxxers.  It is "more common" that people will die from cancer, so don't get vaccinated or wear seat belts, right?  It is "more common" for people to miss than hit when they shoot at people, so therefore the person lying face down with the bullet wound must have died "with" covid. 

It is literally insane that these nut jobs can misrepresent what words mean from two sentences in a CDC report that specifically states that team sports increase the risk of transmission, strongly recommends that students get vaccinated and that unvaccinated wear mask at schools and explains with data why that is the case.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> Apparently the definition of "more common" now means "always" to anti-vaxxers.  It is "more common" that people will die from cancer, so don't get vaccinated or wear seat belts, right?  It is "more common" for people to miss than hit when they shoot at people, so therefore the person lying face down with the bullet wound must have died "with" covid.
> 
> It is literally insane that these nut jobs can misrepresent what words mean from two sentences in a CDC report that specifically states that team sports increase the risk of transmission, strongly recommends that students get vaccinated and that unvaccinated wear mask at schools and explains with data why that is the case.


If you want to be a ‘nutter’ and call everyone anti-vaccine for pointing out your gross overstatements, fine by me.  Wallow in your hyperboles and enjoy the lack of credibility and influence that comes without civil discourse.

If only those awful birthers would stop having kids we wouldn’t have to worry about it, right?


----------



## Kicker4Life

N00B said:


> If you want to be a ‘nutter’ and call everyone anti-vaccine for pointing out your gross overstatements, fine by me.  Wallow in your hyperboles and enjoy the lack of credibility and influence that comes without civil discourse.
> 
> If only those awful birthers would stop having kids we wouldn’t have to worry about it, right?


New avatar, new name to call people.  

ETOL - Trumpanzees
GG - anti-vaxxer 

Just has nothing better to do than insight arguments.


----------



## Desert Hound

So lets check in on Australia.

@dad4 was a big fan of how they handled covid.

This is what happens when you do what @dad4 proposes.

And it is precisely why you stop gov overreach attempts.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440669309785624576


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440595679886266378


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441822243743408131


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441401248243019789


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441300683345514496


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441427256132476928


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442259246339346432


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Apparently the definition of "more common" now means "always" to anti-vaxxers.  It is "more common" that people will die from cancer, so don't get vaccinated or wear seat belts, right?  It is "more common" for people to miss than hit when they shoot at people, so therefore the person lying face down with the bullet wound must have died "with" covid.
> 
> It is literally insane that these nut jobs can misrepresent what words mean from two sentences in a CDC report that specifically states that team sports increase the risk of transmission, strongly recommends that students get vaccinated and that unvaccinated wear mask at schools and explains with data why that is the case.


Sucker


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442259246339346432


So what Australia (and New Zealand) attempted was something every scientist has long known to be unworkable in modern times and highly threatening even if it were workable. To be sure, this idea of virus suppression (where does it go?) tempted policy makers the world over. Trump tried something similar in February and March of 2020, and only later came to see the errors of his ways. As bad as the US response has been, we’ve been mercifully spared the fanatical ideology of “zero Covid.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441427256132476928


Not so in Australia. They blocked outward and inward travel. They broadcast all kinds of messages about staying away from people. They closed businesses. Governments monitored social media for anyone straying too far from their assigned area. When they decided to lock down, they went all in. A nation that prided itself on its good government suddenly found itself managed like a vast prison colony.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

By the summer of 2020, the country was cheering that they had somehow miraculously defeated the virus. Politicians claimed that Australia was the envy of the world. Their experts had shown the way! The US and the World Health Organization all said that Australia has done a great job. Fauci was full of praise.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

That lasted for a few months. The data showing so few cases were helped by a low level of testing. It is actually impossible to know whether and to what extent Covid had been suppressed. Regardless, in the fall of 2020, positive tests began to rise. *Then it came to the big cities of Melbourne and Sydney. The politicians took charge, and unleashed hell.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

It’s been rolling lockdowns ever since. Protests were at first sporadic, and then more. The Prime Minister got involved and echoed the line of the local governors. The people who are protesting are being selfish, he said. The lockdowns will continue so long as the people are failing to comply, he said, echoing words of a prison guard.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Turns out the whole anti-vax movement is an evil plot by Howard Stern and Nancy Pelosi.
> 
> The idea is to trick Republicans into refusing the vaccine, thus giving Democrats a very slight edge in every swing district in the country.  And you guys fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nolte: Howard Stern Proves Democrats Want Unvaccinated Trump Voters Dead
> 
> 
> Do you want to know why I think Howard Stern is going full-monster with his mockery of three fellow human beings who died of the coronavirus? Because leftists like Stern and CNNLOL and Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Anthony Fauci are deliberately looking to manipulate Trump supporters into not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think mini-EOTL was in on it, too.


It’s become almost comical in how irrational it [the series of Covid restrictions] is. The idea that I need to wear a mask when I walk into a restaurant, wear a mask, as I sit down at my seat, I am told by the restaurant, that I should only remove it when I’m eating and drinking, but then I’m removing it and sitting in a packed restaurant and lots of other people eating and drinking… At some point down the line, I feel like we’ve lost sight of the science here, and it’s become a lot more about signalling what political tribe you’re a part of.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Sir John Key pleads with his fellow New Zealanders to get realistic about Covid. A slice:

Some people might like to continue the North Korean option. I am not one of them.  Public health experts and politicians have done a good job of making the public fearful, and therefore willing to accept multiple restrictions on their civil liberties, which are disproportionate to the risk of them contracting Covid.  Another problem with the hermit kingdom model is that you have to believe the Government can go on borrowing a billion dollars every week to disguise that we are no longer making our way in the world.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

For Golden Gaggle

18,553,588
Currently Infected Patients

18,461,309 (*99.5*%)
in Mild Condition

92,279 (*0.5*%)
Serious or Critical

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> It’s become almost comical in how irrational it [the series of Covid restrictions] is. The idea that I need to wear a mask when I walk into a restaurant, wear a mask, as I sit down at my seat, I am told by the restaurant, that I should only remove it when I’m eating and drinking, but then I’m removing it and sitting in a packed restaurant and lots of other people eating and drinking… At some point down the line, I feel like we’ve lost sight of the science here, and it’s become a lot more about signalling what political tribe you’re a part of.


Actually, in your case, it isn't the mask.  

The restaurant should refuse to seat you indoors  because you are not vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people in high risk settings is a bad idea.  

Enjoy your tiramisu outside.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Actually, in your case, it isn't the mask.
> 
> The restaurant should refuse to seat you indoors  because you are not vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people in high risk settings is a bad idea.
> 
> Enjoy your tiramisu outside.


Didn't Bruddah have it?  If so, you are being very anti-science.  If not, apologies.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Didn't Bruddah have it?  If so, you are being very anti-science.  If not, apologies.


If he did, when did he have it?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> If he did, when did he have it?


Well, if we are going to play that game its the same as the vaccines unless you are mandating boosters for everyone.  There's still scant evidence but there is some to suggest that the vaccination antibodies decline faster than natural immunity antibodies.  The more relevant question is probably how badly did you get it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Didn't Bruddah have it?  If so, you are being very anti-science.  If not, apologies.


If dizzy can document a prior infection, then that should count.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If dizzy can document a prior infection, then that should count.


Fair.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> This statement of the problem reveals a gap between the way many economists think of the problem, and how politicians think of it. It is generally assumed, in blackboard economics, that a strong Pareto improvement—everyone is better off, and no one is worse off—is always unobjectionable. More importantly, it is simply assumed that even a weak Pareto improvement—at least one person is better off, and no one is worse off—is always easily implemented as public policy in a democracy. It’s actually the definition of “efficiency,” and efficiency is the goal of public policy.
> 
> But that’s clearly not true. A weak Pareto improvement, say giving any available person a vaccine dose if that dose would otherwise be thrown away, is precisely what many people object to. *The idea that a benefit is undeserved implies that it should not be awarded, even if the alternative is literally dumping the benefit down the sink. The idea that public policy should be concerned first and foremost with preventing those undeserved harms, and confiscating unearned benefits from others, is the central premise of the new rendering of social justice and political responsibility. Nutzenschmerz is the denial of weak Pareto improvements to all members of the society, based on the insistence on a fanatically strict notion of desert. Any undeserved benefit is unjust; any cost incurred in correcting injustice is justified by the emotional group-think of Nutzenschmerz. *


Apologies but I'm stretching to connect the Pareto principle to a parody of a PK shootout.  Nonetheless, I agree Herr Sterling's face could clearly launch a thousand ships so to speak.  I think its possible I missed a Barrington Declaration regarding concussion protocols.  Maybe that's it.  The tyranny of tiny bumps?  That would explain it.  That said I do think of Nutzenschmerz often, and fondly.  The best Nutzenschmerz I ever had was in Heidelberg, a long time ago.  As I recall it was in a little place off the Sofienstrasse in Altstadt.  But like I said its been a long time and who knows if its still there.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Well, if we are going to play that game its the same as the vaccines unless you are mandating boosters for everyone.  There's still scant evidence but there is some to suggest that the vaccination antibodies decline faster than natural immunity antibodies.  The more relevant question is probably how badly did you get it.


Let's play ball! 

For sure, but people who get "the jab" are more likely ok with getting boosters (I most definitely am). We know those that have been infected lose immunity over time.  What's the recourse for those folks?  Will they get a booster? Or suck down some freshly bottled covid saliva?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Let's play ball!
> 
> For sure, but people who get "the jab" are more likely ok with getting boosters (I most definitely am). We know those that have been infected lose immunity over time.  What's the recourse for those folks?  Will they get a booster? Or suck down some freshly bottled covid saliva?


Well, if you are arguing that among the vaccinated only people who have had boosters should be allowed in indoor dining if they are more than x months out, at least your argument is consistent.  

The rebuttal to that is at a certain point, though, we need to stop being concerned about cases.  Everyone is going to be exposed to the virus.  If you've been exposed once (whether naturally or through vaccine) you are less likely to develop a severe reaction the second time because the virus is no longer novel to your system.  There is evidence that people who have had it and have had at least one dose of the vaccine afterwards are supercharged, so it's probably a good idea.  But we need to move on from the idea that cases are a bad thing.  The reason why it's a bad idea for someone who hasn't had it and hasn't had the vaccine to go into indoor dining is that they are more likely to die....but they are more likely to die for any reason (going to work for example) so it's sort of beside the point to the dining question.

The other thing to realize is that unless you are immunocompromised, elderly or are a caretaker of the foregoing, your booster is taking a shot out of the arm out of someone in the third world who could have used the first dose and that could have been used to prevent more mutations from arising in the third world.  So bit of selfishness going on there to keep you "safe"


----------



## crush

Three Warriors with some thoughts from NoCal.  NoCal is so wrong about this.  EOTL and his side kick Golden Gate represent NoCal to a T. 

The San Francisco Department of Public Health said last week that there would be* no exemption for anyone 12 and older at large indoor gatherings.*

NBA: ((China controls this league)) "Under the current order,* if unvaccinated,* they* cannot enter indoor areas regardless of the reason they are unvaccinated *and cannot test out of this requirement even if they have a medical or religious exemption," it said in a statement. Wiggins applied for a religious exemption to avoid taking the shot, but that request was denied by the NBA on Friday.

Andrew: "It's not uncomfortable," *Wiggins said* of all the attention his decision has created.* "I'm confident in my beliefs* and what I think is right, what I think is wrong.* I'm just going to keep doing what I believe*. Whether it's one thing or another, just going to keep doing it."

Curry: "At the end of the day, it is up to him," Curry said. "I think it's no secret to that point. We obviously hope that he has all the right information and access to the right resources to ask all the questions he has on making a decision. We hope he's available. We hope it moves in the right direction. *My opinion is obviously I got it* and ready to be available, and *following, you know, the mandates and whatnot.*

Andre: "I've been upset reading about Andrew Wiggins because it's painting the wrong picture," Iguodala said. "You know, we're in a day and age now where *perception can become reality*, and the *perception that's going on about him is hurting his value and ultimately can affect the wealth that he accumulates, which is totally unfair*. When you do your homework the way it should be done, you understand there's people who [...] have an excuse and there's people who have actual values, and he's a guy that has values, and he's the type of guy who will stand and he's the type of guy I'll risk being around the situation.

*"Now, I'm vaccinated and I have an understanding about this, and he has a different understanding, but his understanding is something that I truly respect and I have a value for how he sees life. He's the type of guy that I support the whole way, and hopefully we can find a solution and I think we will."*

No jab, not allowed in our town.  No jabber doo, no buy or sell which equals=no way to make a living unless you take vax.  This is so wrong you guys in NoCal.  Shame on you, shame shame shame!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Actually, in your case, it isn't the mask.
> 
> The restaurant should refuse to seat you indoors  because you are not vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people in high risk settings is a bad idea.
> 
> Enjoy your tiramisu outside.


The restaurant should worry first about staying  in business.  The tyranny of tiny risk has repetitively been shown for what it really is.

18,553,588
Currently Infected Patients

18,461,309 (99.5%)
in Mild Condition

92,279 (0.5%)
Serious or Critical

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> If he did, when did he have it?


It was under my Christmas tree.  And on the 10th day post-infection I was back in the pool for a nice easy 1 mile swim.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It was under my Christmas tree.  And on the 10th day post-infection I was back in the pool for a nice easy 1 mile swim.


I got it Jan 20th, 2020


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Well, if you are arguing that among the vaccinated only people who have had boosters should be allowed in indoor dining if they are more than x months out, at least your argument is consistent.
> 
> The rebuttal to that is at a certain point, though, we need to stop being concerned about cases.  Everyone is going to be exposed to the virus.  If you've been exposed once (whether naturally or through vaccine) you are less likely to develop a severe reaction the second time because the virus is no longer novel to your system.  There is evidence that people who have had it and have had at least one dose of the vaccine afterwards are supercharged, so it's probably a good idea.  But we need to move on from the idea that cases are a bad thing.  The reason why it's a bad idea for someone who hasn't had it and hasn't had the vaccine to go into indoor dining is that they are more likely to die....but they are more likely to die for any reason (going to work for example) so it's sort of beside the point to the dining question.
> 
> The other thing to realize is that unless you are immunocompromised, elderly or are a caretaker of the foregoing, your booster is taking a shot out of the arm out of someone in the third world who could have used the first dose and that could have been used to prevent more mutations from arising in the third world.  So bit of selfishness going on there to keep you "safe"


Right, my view is consistent here in that it should be applied to both vaccinated and those who've been infected.  Moderna appears to be effective up to 93% after 120 days since one's last shot.  Pfizer is around 77%.  Bummer thing is 54% of those vaccinated in the US took Pfizer.  Nonetheless, boosters seem inevitable.  I'm less concerned about vaccinated folks getting the booster shot, as they won't really need much convincing.   It's the folks who have been infected and are reluctant to even go down that path.  I do agree with you that mandates and lockdowns generally don't work in the US given how political everything is.  Heck even Trump tried to convince people to get the vaccination.  Next thing you know, Alex Jones is calling him an idiot.  The crazy out there is very real.  

Cases don't matter in places where vaccination rates are high.  Perhaps we could include places where natural immunity has been built up as well.  But if you look at FL and TX  compared to CA these days it's night and day.  I think it's undeniable that if FL and TX achieved a higher vaccination rate their death toll wouldn't be where it is today.  Hopefully delta is peaking and we don't see another big wave in the near future, but at this point I'm pretty skeptical.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Right, my view is consistent here in that it should be applied to both vaccinated and those who've been infected.  Moderna appears to be effective up to 93% after 120 days since one's last shot.  Pfizer is around 77%.  Bummer thing is 54% of those vaccinated in the US took Pfizer.  Nonetheless, boosters seem inevitable.  I'm less concerned about vaccinated folks getting the booster shot, as they won't really need much convincing.   It's the folks who have been infected and are reluctant to even go down that path.  I do agree with you that mandates and lockdowns generally don't work in the US given how political everything is.  Heck even Trump tried to convince people to get the vaccination.  Next thing you know, Alex Jones is calling him an idiot.  The crazy out there is very real.
> 
> Cases don't matter in places where vaccination rates are high.  Perhaps we could include places where natural immunity has been built up as well.  But if you look at FL and TX  compared to CA these days it's night and day.  I think it's undeniable that if FL and TX achieved a higher vaccination rate their death toll wouldn't be where it is today.  Hopefully delta is peaking and we don't see another big wave in the near future, but at this point I'm pretty skeptical.


There's some evidence natural immunity might be effective for at least a year, which if you are concerned about fading immunity, you really should be more concerned about the vaxxed than the naturally immune.  There is a portion of people who are vaxxed (including I venture some posters here on team reality in the forums) who got their first dose who won't necessarily get the second (at least until there's some scientific proof they actually do anything...widespread boosters having been rejected by the CDC and FDA scientific panel for that reason).  Not to mention, if you are healthy, it's selfish because you are taking a jab out of the arms of some third world grandma that needs it more than you do (unless you are elderly, immunocompromised or care for someone that is)


----------



## Grace T.

I thought we were concerned with the hospital system collapsing?









						Vaccine racial disparity gap narrows; 400K Americans got booster shots last weekend: COVID-19 updates
					

The gap in racial disparities in COVID-19 vaccination rates is closing. New York expands health care workforce. Latest news.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> you are taking a jab out of the arms of some third world grandma that needs it more than you do


Nonsense.


----------



## Grace T.

Because of all the asymptomatic employer and school testing, rapid tests in California are in short supply and places that need them (nursing homes, schools trying to avoid quarantining kids and missing school) are having a harder time getting them.









						Rapid COVID-19 tests in short supply in California
					

Californians seeking same-day COVID-19 tests are finding empty shelves and long delays, which could fuel outbreaks.




					calmatters.org


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Nonsense.


"Oh Magoo old bean you've done it again!"


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Nonsense.


I think Grace T makes a strong case.  I told everyone I would be last to take it.  I want to make sure all the elderly and the poor around the world has jab.  Come find me when the last jabs have been handed out to everyone else.  It's the least I can do.  I saw some really rich dads run and push everyone out of the way so they could get jabbed first.  I saw it with my own eyes.


----------



## Grace T.

UK supply chain for a variety of things from food to gas is in a state of collapse.  Their problems are being exacerbated by Brexit, but might it be coming to the US this winter too?









						UK Food Shortages Explained: Understanding the perfect storm of Brexit, a food crisis, as well as gas and CO2 shortages...
					

UK Food Shortages Explained: Understanding the perfect storm of Brexit, a food crisis, as well as gas and CO2 shortages...




					www.we-heart.com


----------



## Grace T.

I thought dad4 would get a kick out of this due to the entire red pill/blue pill thing


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> UK supply chain for a variety of things from food to gas is in a state of collapse.  Their problems are being exacerbated by Brexit, but might it be coming to the US this winter too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK Food Shortages Explained: Understanding the perfect storm of Brexit, a food crisis, as well as gas and CO2 shortages...
> 
> 
> UK Food Shortages Explained: Understanding the perfect storm of Brexit, a food crisis, as well as gas and CO2 shortages...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.we-heart.com


Kamala said to get Christmas shopping done early.  I was at beach yesterday for a mind relax walk & meditation.  I saw so many cargo ships sitting a few miles out.  Getting closer & closer.  It's an eye sore for sure but I see it as something worse.  Stock up on food folks.  These are evil monsters WHO already know they lost a long time ago and so cheating & lying is ok to them because they put it all in.  That's why they dont care if someone loses their job ((buy & sell)) because they say no to jab.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The restaurant should refuse to seat you indoors because you are not vaccinated. Unvaccinated people in high risk settings is a bad idea.


With Delta the vaxxed spread the virus at similar levels to the unvaxxed. 

So it doesn't make a difference. 

The vast vast majority of the unvaxxed have little risk AND they have made their choice. 

So again it doesn't make a difference if they are inside or outdoors.

It is time to move on and live life. Long past that already.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> Hopefully delta is peaking and we don't see another big wave in the near future, but at this point I'm pretty skeptical.


If you bothered looking at the data you would know Delta in the US peaked around Aug 27.


----------



## Desert Hound

Delta peaked awhile ago in the US.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> If you bothered looking at the data you would know Delta in the US peaked around Aug 27.


These fools are out of waves Hound.  Now they go around scaring people that a giant tidal wave is going come someday.  They ruined peoples lives because they lost in 2016 and then were allowed to cheat in 2020 so they could ALL finally get caught on video and text.  We have it all Hound and no one is going to escape justice this time.  This was the biggest sting ((Rat Trap Ever)) operation ever.  Fraudsters no more!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Because of all the asymptomatic employer and school testing, rapid tests in California are in short supply and places that need them (nursing homes, schools trying to avoid quarantining kids and missing school) are having a harder time getting them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rapid COVID-19 tests in short supply in California
> 
> 
> Californians seeking same-day COVID-19 tests are finding empty shelves and long delays, which could fuel outbreaks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calmatters.org


Well yeah, when cases are running as rampant as they are in CA, we should test everyone all the time.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> If you bothered looking at the data you would know Delta in the US peaked around Aug 27.


Agreed. I post a link below for those interested. I've found that CNN can be used as a general guideline. Just note how many days it's been since they last posted about cases and/or deaths.





__





						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> I think Grace T makes a strong case.  I told everyone I would be last to take it.  I want to make sure all the elderly and the poor around the world has jab.  Come find me when the last jabs have been handed out to everyone else.  It's the least I can do.  I saw some really rich dads run and push everyone out of the way so they could get jabbed first.  I saw it with my own eyes.


This is rich.  Which is it Crush?  Is the vaccine bad or good?  You're now saying you're not getting because you want to be a good samaritan, but previously you've said that it's dangerous.  I'm going to need more than a shovel to get through this manurer.  There are plenty of doses to go around in the US right now Crush.


----------



## crush

*NEW - NY Governor Hochul proclaims, "The vaccine comes from God" and asks those present in the megachurch congregation, "I need you to be my apostles."*

She wants to be like Jesus I guess and have her own 12 Apostles to spread her message that the Vax is from God and not a Bat or Dr. Fraud and his pal Bill?  Espola, is this Coo Coo for Co Co Puffs or Nonsense?  I have a message from God as well; walk in the light, it's right.  Please start treating your body as a holy body.  Humans are hooked on meat and booze.  Stop eating meat and then, come follow me ((Jesus, not crush)) and I will give you treasures now and forever more.  Jesus is the way, not jabber doos, moo, moo, moo!!!  I love you all and soon this will be shown for what it truly is.  Love love love and live light


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Nonsense.


q.e.d.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I thought we were concerned with the hospital system collapsing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine racial disparity gap narrows; 400K Americans got booster shots last weekend: COVID-19 updates
> 
> 
> The gap in racial disparities in COVID-19 vaccination rates is closing. New York expands health care workforce. Latest news.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com





Grace T. said:


> Because of all the asymptomatic employer and school testing, rapid tests in California are in short supply and places that need them (nursing homes, schools trying to avoid quarantining kids and missing school) are having a harder time getting them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rapid COVID-19 tests in short supply in California
> 
> 
> Californians seeking same-day COVID-19 tests are finding empty shelves and long delays, which could fuel outbreaks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calmatters.org


Just a couple examples of the negative outcomes of myopic policies and complete failure to understand cause and effect, or ignoring cause and effect because its not politically expedient.

In a partial defense of politicians, they have to act like they're doing something with a grossly disproportionate emphasis on short term results.  Its more important to solve problem A without considering its impact on problem B.  Unfortunately in this case many have done nothing to materially solve problem A but have completely f'ed up problem B and now have created problems C, D, E, F.....  Attorneys and activists, which are your typical politicians, have no experience operating anything, so they are not capable understanding how one part impacts the whole.


----------



## Grace T.

Here's Oregon despite vaccination, outdoor masks, and business restrictions.....









						Oregon COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Oregon COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Washington.....









						Washington COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Washington COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




British Columbia....





__





						Experience
					






					experience.arcgis.com
				




The line has clearly moved northward and is now near peak in the north.  The only question is once the current wave is done does it start to rise again in the north and head back south again?


As expected, it looks like seasonality has begun to kick in Australia and they seem to hopefully be at peak









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> *NEW - NY Governor Hochul proclaims, "The vaccine comes from God" and asks those present in the megachurch congregation, "I need you to be my apostles."*
> 
> She wants to be like Jesus I guess and have her own 12 Apostles to spread her message that the Vax is from God and not a Bat or Dr. Fraud and his pal Bill?  Espola, is this Coo Coo for Co Co Puffs or Nonsense?  I have a message from God as well; walk in the light, it's right.  Please start treating your body as a holy body.  Humans are hooked on meat and booze.  Stop eating meat and then, come follow me ((Jesus, not crush)) and I will give you treasures now and forever more.  Jesus is the way, not jabber doos, moo, moo, moo!!!  I love you all and soon this will be shown for what it truly is.  Love love love and live light


Did she happen to mention the God mandated Immune system?  The Anti-immune system whack jobs hate that mandate!


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> There's some evidence natural immunity might be effective for at least a year, which if you are concerned about fading immunity, you really should be more concerned about the vaxxed than the naturally immune.  There is a portion of people who are vaxxed (including I venture some posters here on team reality in the forums) who got their first dose who won't necessarily get the second (at least until there's some scientific proof they actually do anything...widespread boosters having been rejected by the CDC and FDA scientific panel for that reason).  Not to mention, if you are healthy, it's selfish because you are taking a jab out of the arms of some third world grandma that needs it more than you do (unless you are elderly, immunocompromised or care for someone that is)


Not really concerned with folks who've gotten the vaccination.  They don't need convincing.  They understand the importance of preventing the spread of covid (and not getting sick themselves).   If boosters become a thing, they will get it. 

I also think there's a difference between antibody depletion and longer term immunity (both vaccinated and unvaccinated):  Here's a good simple read:









						Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think
					

New studies look at how the mRNA vaccines affect the cells in your body in the short run and the long run. The findings are a counterpoint to concerns about waning immunity.




					www.npr.org
				




Perhaps this is why the FDA is holding off on approving booster shots for the moment (they are allowing for emergency use).  I still think booster shots will be a thing at some point.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> I got it Jan 20th, 2020


Probably been bit worse by bed bugs.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Did she happen to mention the God mandated Immune system?  The Anti-immune system whack jobs hate that mandate!


Nope.  I had Oats this morning and a tasty fruit smoothie, yummy!!  Lunch is looking very nice with baby potato's, peppers, onions, cilantro and salad.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Not really concerned with folks who've gotten the vaccination.  They don't need convincing.  They understand the importance of preventing the spread of covid (and not getting sick themselves).   If boosters become a thing, they will get it.
> 
> I also think there's a difference between antibody depletion and longer term immunity (both vaccinated and unvaccinated):  Here's a good simple read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think
> 
> 
> New studies look at how the mRNA vaccines affect the cells in your body in the short run and the long run. The findings are a counterpoint to concerns about waning immunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is why the FDA is holding off on approving booster shots for the moment (they are allowing for emergency use).  I still think booster shots will be a thing at some point.


Comical


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> *Not really concerned with folks who've gotten the vaccination.  They don't need convincing.  They understand the importance of preventing the spread of covid (and not getting sick themselves).   If boosters become a thing, they will get it.
> Perhaps this is why the FDA is holding off on approving booster shots for the moment (they are allowing for emergency use).  I still think booster shots will be a thing at some point.*


You really should just be concerned with yourself and not worry about how others decide to live their life.  My best friend got jabbed twice and still is on blood thinner.  I support you if you want boosters.  Please show respect Nocal.  Seriously, show respect to those who use immune system and eat healthy as their choice


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Not really concerned with folks who've gotten the vaccination.  They don't need convincing.  They understand the importance of preventing the spread of covid (and not getting sick themselves).   If boosters become a thing, they will get it.
> 
> I also think there's a difference between antibody depletion and longer term immunity (both vaccinated and unvaccinated):  Here's a good simple read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think
> 
> 
> New studies look at how the mRNA vaccines affect the cells in your body in the short run and the long run. The findings are a counterpoint to concerns about waning immunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is why the FDA is holding off on approving booster shots for the moment (they are allowing for emergency use).  I still think booster shots will be a thing at some point.


Fine!

But then I think you are off your original position about how long ago since the vaccinated have the same issue and booster shots aren't yet a real thing.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> You really should just be concerned with yourself and not worry about how others decide to live their life.  My best friend got jabbed twice and still is on blood thinner.  I support you if you want boosters.  Please show respect Nocal.  Seriously, show respect to those who use immune system and eat healthy as their choice


Eating healthy is Anti-Big Pharma, Anti-Healthcare, Anti-government, Anti-grandma, Anti-poverty, Anti-global warming, Anti-communism.....


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Fine!
> 
> But then I think you are off your original position about how long ago since the vaccinated have the same issue and booster shots aren't yet a real thing.


Not sure I understand what you're saying there?  How am I off my original position?  I think boosters are going to be a thing eventually.  When?, I have no idea.  My original position is that folks that have been infected potentially could be harder to convince to get a booster shot in the future than people who have previously been vaccinated.  This doesn't seem like an extreme position to take.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Eating healthy is Anti-Big Pharma, Anti-Healthcare, Anti-government, Anti-grandma, Anti-poverty, Anti-global warming, Anti-communism.....


Tell me about it.  I have some old male friends ((I call them old because their jealous of my body of work and stopped hanging out with me because they eat poison all day)) who are super obese and eat & drink on the road on business trips every week.  Big players making big bucks.  These guys tell me their going to retire why I still have to work until I day.  I'm not trying to judge people, I promise.  I do get defensive when both dad(s) and NoCalDad will leave out the immune system as an option instead of jabber doos and booze.  I say veggies, fruits, nuts and salads all day long and no jab.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Not sure I understand what you're saying there?  How am I off my original position?  I think boosters are going to be a thing eventually.  When?, I have no idea.  My original position is that folks that have been infected potentially could be harder to convince to get a booster shot in the future than people who have previously been vaccinated.  This doesn't seem like an extreme position to take.


By stock in it so your all in dude.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> You really should just be concerned with yourself and not worry about how others decide to live their life.  My best friend got jabbed twice and still is on blood thinner.  I support you if you want boosters.  Please show respect Nocal.  Seriously, show respect to those who use immune system and eat healthy as their choice


Dude, you just wrote: "I told everyone I would be last to take it. I want to make sure all the elderly and the poor around the world has jab. Come find me when the last jabs have been handed out to everyone else. It's the least I can do."

So you want all the poor and elderly to be on blood thinners due to getting"the jab"? Orrrrrr do you want the elderly and the poor to be protected by"the jab" so that they don't die of covid?  

Which is it?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Not sure I understand what you're saying there?  How am I off my original position?  I think boosters are going to be a thing eventually.  When?, I have no idea.  My original position is that folks that have been infected potentially could be harder to convince to get a booster shot in the future than people who have previously been vaccinated.  This doesn't seem like an extreme position to take.


The original subject of the discussion was whether the unvaccinated should be excluded from things like indoor dining.  The conversation then turned to natural immunity which (if as dad4 says was proven with some form of test) should also be exempt.  You objected that it depended on when it happened...how long ago.  I pointed out that the vaccinated have the same problem.  The conversation then turned to that's why there are boosters.  But boosters, as you've said, aren't yet a thing...they might be in the future but aren't yet...which renders your objection moot (at least for the time being, but I get not necessarily in the future).


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> The original subject of the discussion was whether the unvaccinated should be excluded from things like indoor dining.  The conversation then turned to natural immunity which (if as dad4 says was proven with some form of test) should also be exempt.  You objected that it depended on when it happened...how long ago.  I pointed out that the vaccinated have the same problem.  The conversation then turned to that's why there are boosters.  But boosters, as you've said, aren't yet a thing...they might be in the future but aren't yet...which renders your objection moot (at least for the time being, but I get not necessarily in the future).


Ahhh I see.  I agreed they should be applied to both vaccinated and infected.  The challenge, though, is someone who was infected back in March 2020 (PCR tested -- not "I felt weird for a week that month") could probably be under the assumption that they're good to go.  I actually don't have a super strong opinion on who should be allowed to do what.  I think businesses should be allowed to make those choices, but maybe be required to publish their policy.  My only point was that saying "so and so had covid, right?" isn't necessarily a free pass.  Most folks around my neck of the woods got vaccinated between March - May of this year, so while the clock is ticking, we're still a bit ok based on the data.   My guess is the booster will be approved if we see another wave come through.  Winter would be an ideal time for that to happen.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Not sure I understand what you're saying there?  How am I off my original position?  I think boosters are going to be a thing eventually.  When?, I have no idea.  My original position is that folks that have been infected potentially could be harder to convince to get a booster shot in the future than people who have previously been vaccinated.  This doesn't seem like an extreme position to take.


Are the "Archers" better?


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Dude, you just wrote: "I told everyone I would be last to take it. I want to make sure all the elderly and the poor around the world has jab. Come find me when the last jabs have been handed out to everyone else. It's the least I can do."
> 
> So you want all the poor and elderly to be on blood thinners due to getting"the jab"? Orrrrrr do you want the elderly and the poor to be protected by"the jab" so that they don't die of covid?
> 
> Which is it?


Dude, I write in satire.  "I told *everyone* I would be last to take it."  WTF is "everyone in my world?"  I dont know EVERYONE.  Seriously, you need help man.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Ahhh I see.  I agreed they should be applied to both vaccinated and infected.  The challenge, though, is someone who was infected back in March 2020 (PCR tested -- not "I felt weird for a week that month") could probably be under the assumption that they're good to go.  I actually don't have a super strong opinion on who should be allowed to do what.  I think businesses should be allowed to make those choices, but maybe be required to publish their policy.  My only point was that saying "so and so had covid, right?" isn't necessarily a free pass.  Most folks around my neck of the woods got vaccinated between March - May of this year, so while the clock is ticking, we're still a bit ok based on the data.   My guess is the booster will be approved if we see another wave come through.  Winter would be an ideal time for that to happen.


Did most people who got vaccinated in your neck wood show you PCR test results?  Vax card showing two doses?  Another wave?  Is the neck wood gonna line up to show you their PCR test results and vax card with proof of booster shot?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

I’m very happy to be in this position, very happy to be joining the faculty of University of Florida also. I talked to the governor and there are a few things that we’re going to keep in mind as we approach public health here in the state of Florida. *The first is that Florida will completely reject fear as a way of making policies in public health. *We’re done with fear. That’s been something that’s been unfortunately a centerpiece of health policy in the United States ever since the beginning of the pandemic, and it’s over here. Expiration date. It’s done.--Joe Ladopo, Go Bruins!!


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The original subject of the discussion was whether the unvaccinated should be excluded from things like indoor dining.  The conversation then turned to natural immunity which (if as dad4 says was proven with some form of test) should also be exempt.  You objected that it depended on when it happened...how long ago.  I pointed out that the vaccinated have the same problem.  The conversation then turned to that's why there are boosters.  But boosters, as you've said, aren't yet a thing...they might be in the future but aren't yet...which renders your objection moot (at least for the time being, but I get not necessarily in the future).


These people have lost their minds Grace T.  They want me so bad to roll up my sleeve and take two for the team and be like Golden Gate and NoCalDad and Dad.  Hahahahahaha, I picked right this time and now their jealous.  I would love to see what these men look like up close and in person.  We can have a drink and laugh this off some day.  Grace T can be the judge of not only character, but physical looks and health.  I will be 55 in November.  Think Gettysburg address for when I turn 55.  11am baby!!!  I am already the healthiest ever in my life and when i turn 55, I will be even healthier.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Ahhh I see.  I agreed they should be applied to both vaccinated and infected.  The challenge, though, is someone who was infected back in March 2020 (PCR tested -- not "I felt weird for a week that month") could probably be under the assumption that they're good to go.  I actually don't have a super strong opinion on who should be allowed to do what.  I think businesses should be allowed to make those choices, but maybe be required to publish their policy.  My only point was that saying "so and so had covid, right?" isn't necessarily a free pass.  Most folks around my neck of the woods got vaccinated between March - May of this year, so while the clock is ticking, we're still a bit ok based on the data.   My guess is the booster will be approved if we see another wave come through.  Winter would be an ideal time for that to happen.


They have been approved on EU for a large portion of people who want them (elderly, immunocompromised, front line workers).  They haven't been recommended for everyone and the FDA scientific panel specifically turned down the white house's proposal in this area since there isn't a whole lot of data yet supporting whether boosters much good (at least offsetting the good they would otherwise do in places like the third world).  My guess is that boosters at this point don't get a whole lot of traction barring a major groundbreaking study showing such benefit, or Pfizer getting out the update which has run into problems for a variety of reasons









						Why you’re not getting a delta-specific booster yet
					

It’s in clinical trials, but many experts say you don’t need a tailored vaccine for this variant.




					www.vox.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

In terms of that, I think vaccines will [be] treat[ed] like any other preventive issue. The goal will be education and that will be the goal *and this idea that people don’t get to make their own decisions on issues of health related to their own personal health is wrong. It’s not something that we’re going to be about. We’re going to be about education.--Joe Ladopo*


----------



## what-happened

Bruddah IZ said:


> Did most people who got vaccinated in your neck wood show you PCR test results?  Vax card showing two doses?  Another wave?  Is the neck wood gonna line up to show you their PCR test results and vax card with proof of booster shot?


What a tangled web we weave right?  There is a  growing population of people with breakthrough infections inside of the vaccine wane period.  And it's going to keep growing.  What happens then?  Next step is breakthrough infections inside of booster wane period.  What then? 

Vaccinations with booster has its place in managing disease with those most vulnerable.  No doubt current vaccines have minimized impact of severe disease who fall into this category.  To mandate anything to healthy people is lunacy.  If corporations want to mandate, then have at it.  Prepare to suffer possible consequences of the mandates.  Some will comply, some won't.  No need to regurgitate all of the unintended consequences of mandates, hyperbole, etc on all facets of society.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> I’m very happy to be in this position, very happy to be joining the faculty of University of Florida also. I talked to the governor and there are a few things that we’re going to keep in mind as we approach public health here in the state of Florida. *The first is that Florida will completely reject fear as a way of making policies in public health. *We’re done with fear. That’s been something that’s been unfortunately a centerpiece of health policy in the United States ever since the beginning of the pandemic, and it’s over here. Expiration date. It’s done.--Joe Ladopo, Go Bruins!!


Corona 19=Fear poison and people are addicted to fear.  Anna wakes up every morning looking out for the Domic A.I.  I think Domic is a demon that can go into millions of people if you let him.  He brings the fear of death to people.  Death is and should be a celebration of one's life and surrounded by love, not all alone in some nursing home.  Mask for kids and stay away 6 feet is evil and not scientific. 

C= 3
O=15
R=18
O=15
N=14
A= 1_
6    66

1= Artificial
9= Intelligence

Word for the day:  Covfefe


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> What a tangled web we weave right?  There is a  growing population of people with breakthrough infections inside of the vaccine wane period.  And it's going to keep growing.  What happens then?  Next step is breakthrough infections inside of booster wane period.  What then?
> 
> Vaccinations with booster has its place in managing disease with those most vulnerable.  No doubt current vaccines have minimized impact of severe disease who fall into this category.  To mandate anything to healthy people is lunacy.  If corporations want to mandate, then have at it.  Prepare to suffer possible consequences of the mandates.  Some will comply, some won't.  No need to regurgitate all of the unintended consequences of mandates, hyperbole, etc on all facets of society.


Socialism is intoxicating.  No needle required.  Just fragile cowards.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Where have the chicken hawk SJ's been?

Jordan Davidson decries the Covidocracy’s deranged and despotic reign on college campuses. A slice: 

After purging their enrollment lists of students who refused to comply with the shot mandate, a multitude of universities that boast a 100 percent vaccination rate are still restricting students’ activities on and off campus. Using capacity limits, travel bans, masking requirements regardless of vaccination status, and bolded recommendations barring dining in restaurants and bars, universities such as Amherst College in Massachusetts are implementing their own version of lockdowns on students and staff in the name of curbing future COVID outbreaks.

Officials at Amherst College recently threatened students with “stricter rules” following an outbreak at the nearby University of Massachusetts. The university’s paper admitted that “those infected had experienced mild to moderate illness and were not hospitalized,” but that didn’t stop College Chief of Police John Carter from demanding that Amherst students avoid “significant noncompliance” with the university’s mask mandates and other COVID-19 policies.

Most of these restrictions are indefinite, and the threat of more rules and regulations always looms over students’ heads.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Amherst Socialist Bicentennial......Hope parents are enjoying paying SOCIALIST*

*Student Off-Campus Travel*

Students may travel beyond the town of Amherst, but within Hampshire County, which includes the towns of Amherst, Belchertown, Easthampton, Granby, Hatfield, Huntington, North Amherst, Northampton, South Amherst and Ware. *Do not dine-in at restaurants, indoor cafes, or bars.* 
Travel beyond these limits must be approved by the Office of Student Affairs by submitting a request at Amherst.edu/go/travelform. Student organizations or teams seeking to travel beyond Hampshire County or overnight travel must coordinate through their recognizing department.
All Amherst College students must be masked when indoors at any off-campus location and when using public transportation.
While we are not currently restricting travel over fall break, we *s*trongly encourage students to stay on campus. *We ask anyone who chooses to travel to avoid COVID-19 hotspots and urge you to abide by all precautions, particularly mask-wearing*. Anyone who travels off campus over the break will need to register their travel and will be required to participate in re-entry testing, which will mean scheduling your return to campus in time to be tested prior to your first class*.* If there are significant developments related to the pandemic and we need to institute other measures, up to and including prohibiting travel, we will let you know as soon as possible
It is too early to say whether travel to or from campus during other breaks or events (such as Family Weekend, Homecoming, and Thanksgiving) will be impacted. We simply do not know what the public health situation will be as those occasions near, but we will provide information as soon as possible.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Amherst Socialist Bicentennial......Hope parents are enjoying paying SOCIALIST*
> 
> *Student Off-Campus Travel*
> 
> Students may travel beyond the town of Amherst, but within Hampshire County, which includes the towns of Amherst, Belchertown, Easthampton, Granby, Hatfield, Huntington, North Amherst, Northampton, South Amherst and Ware. *Do not dine-in at restaurants, indoor cafes, or bars.*
> Travel beyond these limits must be approved by the Office of Student Affairs by submitting a request at Amherst.edu/go/travelform. Student organizations or teams seeking to travel beyond Hampshire County or overnight travel must coordinate through their recognizing department.
> All Amherst College students must be masked when indoors at any off-campus location and when using public transportation.
> While we are not currently restricting travel over fall break, we *s*trongly encourage students to stay on campus. *We ask anyone who chooses to travel to avoid COVID-19 hotspots and urge you to abide by all precautions, particularly mask-wearing*. Anyone who travels off campus over the break will need to register their travel and will be required to participate in re-entry testing, which will mean scheduling your return to campus in time to be tested prior to your first class*.* If there are significant developments related to the pandemic and we need to institute other measures, up to and including prohibiting travel, we will let you know as soon as possible
> It is too early to say whether travel to or from campus during other breaks or events (such as Family Weekend, Homecoming, and Thanksgiving) will be impacted. We simply do not know what the public health situation will be as those occasions near, but we will provide information as soon as possible.


*IFR: .00006;  the tyranny of tiny risk *


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Where have the chicken hawk SJ's been?
> 
> Jordan Davidson decries the Covidocracy’s deranged and despotic reign on college campuses. A slice:
> 
> After purging their enrollment lists of students who refused to comply with the shot mandate, a multitude of universities that boast a 100 percent vaccination rate are still restricting students’ activities on and off campus. Using capacity limits, travel bans, masking requirements regardless of vaccination status, and bolded recommendations barring dining in restaurants and bars, universities such as Amherst College in Massachusetts are implementing their own version of lockdowns on students and staff in the name of curbing future COVID outbreaks.
> 
> Officials at Amherst College recently threatened students with “stricter rules” following an outbreak at the nearby University of Massachusetts. The university’s paper admitted that “those infected had experienced mild to moderate illness and were not hospitalized,” but that didn’t stop College Chief of Police John Carter from demanding that Amherst students avoid “significant noncompliance” with the university’s mask mandates and other COVID-19 policies.
> 
> Most of these restrictions are indefinite, and the threat of more rules and regulations always looms over students’ heads.


I predict the next epidemic is in those people needing psychiatric care and mood/anxiety medication.


----------



## Kicker4Life

kickingandscreaming said:


> I predict the next epidemic is in those people needing psychiatric care and mood/anxiety medication.


Yet another win for pharmaceutical companies.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> *IFR: .00006;  the tyranny of tiny risk *


And in theory that is supposed to be a top ranked school academically. 

And yet they pretend that the risk to young people is such that they need to put in place rules that restrict their students but won't make a difference to the spread of covid.


----------



## crush

I took this shot today from my secret spot.  My good pal owns a house on the rocks behind me and I stay on his private beach anytime I want.  Fact is I counted 12 all the way up North by Kicker and down South by Wat Fly.  The cargo ships are lining up like never before.  8 days back up and no where to anchor past Dana Point because it's super deep ocean and to far down for the cargo ships to let anchors down.  So they just float down south and we see them all day.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> And in theory that is supposed to be a top ranked school academically.
> 
> And yet they pretend that the risk to young people is such that they need to put in place rules that restrict their students but won't make a difference to the spread of covid.


200 years!! Where did all the Science go?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> I predict the next epidemic is in those people needing psychiatric care and mood/anxiety medication.


Scott Atlas said that early last summer.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*COVID-19 mortality in locked down California vs. free Florida by age group *

*through Sept. 22, 2021 (latest CDC data). If the lockdowns accomplished anything, they harmed the old without protecting the young. Lockdown = Let It Drip.

*


----------



## Kicker4Life

Bruddah IZ said:


> 200 years!! Where did all the Science go?


Gain of Function did change the game a little.  Kinda fast forwarded evolution.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> Gain of Function did change the game a little.  Kinda fast forwarded evolution.


Was Amherst a pioneer in GOF?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Just jump to 1:48


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Just jump to 1:48


Jonathan Isaac needs to run for office. I can't imagine an incumbent in either party I'd prefer. It has nothing to do with him choosing or not choosing to be vaccinated and everything to do with perspective and how he communicates it.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Just jump to 1:48


Hey bro, this is what I've been trying to say all along.  I just share from a more emotional side.  President Isaac sounds good to me.


----------



## crush

Listen to this song and let the sunshine in folks and follow me to the 5th Dimension.  I will be taking a leave for sometime and then I will come back to help those who want my help.  Get outside and let the sun light up your world and let the light always be right for you


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Unvaccinated NBA Players Say Getting the COVID Vaccine Should Be a Personal Choice*


----------



## thirteenknots

* NL *#* TIMES*


WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2021 - 12:30
SHARE THIS:
*Mayors positive about using wristbands instead of QR code for Covid access pass*

They mayors on the Security Council are positive about experiments that were held this past weekend in some municipalities with wristbands, with which people could gain access to the catering industry after a single presentation of a coronavirus access pass (CTB). The cabinet also sees value in it, but would like to draw up rules so that such a system works the same everywhere and can also be enforced.




*Anger on campuses as freshers given wristbands to signify Covid vaccination*
By Ewan Somerville
Telegraph
09-28-2021
 21 hours ago

Freshers have been given wristbands to signal whether they are vaccinated against coronavirus amid anger at emerging “two-tier” university campuses. Students arriving this week at the University of Bath have been given a different coloured wristband on club nights if they can prove in advance they are double jabbed, or have Covid-19 immunity.


*Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees sport ‘MCSO vaccinated’ wristbands*
*The wristbands have already caught the attention of one county commissioner.*


By Brandon Hamilton
Published: Sep. 27, 2021 at 2:46 PM PDT


CHARLOTTE, N.C. (WBTV) - You may notice some Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees wearing a wristband to say they are vaccinated against COVID-19.
It’s an effort to not only increase vaccination numbers in the sheriff’s office - but to make sure you at home are comfortable when you need emergency assistance.
”We had to think of the best way to recognize who’s vaccinated and who’s not,” said Mecklenburg County Sheriff Garry McFadden.
The wristband says “MCSO vaccinated.”






Know YOUR History or you will be destined to repeat it.
The above examples are the very tip of the spear.
Remember and RESIST.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> * NL *#* TIMES*
> 
> 
> WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2021 - 12:30
> SHARE THIS:
> *Mayors positive about using wristbands instead of QR code for Covid access pass*
> 
> They mayors on the Security Council are positive about experiments that were held this past weekend in some municipalities with wristbands, with which people could gain access to the catering industry after a single presentation of a coronavirus access pass (CTB). The cabinet also sees value in it, but would like to draw up rules so that such a system works the same everywhere and can also be enforced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Anger on campuses as freshers given wristbands to signify Covid vaccination*
> By Ewan Somerville
> Telegraph
> 09-28-2021
> 21 hours ago
> 
> Freshers have been given wristbands to signal whether they are vaccinated against coronavirus amid anger at emerging “two-tier” university campuses. Students arriving this week at the University of Bath have been given a different coloured wristband on club nights if they can prove in advance they are double jabbed, or have Covid-19 immunity.
> 
> 
> *Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees sport ‘MCSO vaccinated’ wristbands*
> *The wristbands have already caught the attention of one county commissioner.*
> 
> 
> By Brandon Hamilton
> Published: Sep. 27, 2021 at 2:46 PM PDT
> 
> 
> CHARLOTTE, N.C. (WBTV) - You may notice some Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees wearing a wristband to say they are vaccinated against COVID-19.
> It’s an effort to not only increase vaccination numbers in the sheriff’s office - but to make sure you at home are comfortable when you need emergency assistance.
> ”We had to think of the best way to recognize who’s vaccinated and who’s not,” said Mecklenburg County Sheriff Garry McFadden.
> The wristband says “MCSO vaccinated.”
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 11766
> 
> 
> Know YOUR History or you will be destined to repeat it.
> The above examples are the very tip of the spear.
> Remember and RESIST.
> 
> 
> View attachment 11770


There is no need for anyone to post anything critical of you.  Your content reveals your character sufficiently.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> * NL *#* TIMES*
> 
> 
> WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2021 - 12:30
> SHARE THIS:
> *Mayors positive about using wristbands instead of QR code for Covid access pass*
> 
> They mayors on the Security Council are positive about experiments that were held this past weekend in some municipalities with wristbands, with which people could gain access to the catering industry after a single presentation of a coronavirus access pass (CTB). The cabinet also sees value in it, but would like to draw up rules so that such a system works the same everywhere and can also be enforced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Anger on campuses as freshers given wristbands to signify Covid vaccination*
> By Ewan Somerville
> Telegraph
> 09-28-2021
> 21 hours ago
> 
> Freshers have been given wristbands to signal whether they are vaccinated against coronavirus amid anger at emerging “two-tier” university campuses. Students arriving this week at the University of Bath have been given a different coloured wristband on club nights if they can prove in advance they are double jabbed, or have Covid-19 immunity.
> 
> 
> *Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees sport ‘MCSO vaccinated’ wristbands*
> *The wristbands have already caught the attention of one county commissioner.*
> 
> 
> By Brandon Hamilton
> Published: Sep. 27, 2021 at 2:46 PM PDT
> 
> 
> CHARLOTTE, N.C. (WBTV) - You may notice some Mecklenburg County Sheriff’s Office employees wearing a wristband to say they are vaccinated against COVID-19.
> It’s an effort to not only increase vaccination numbers in the sheriff’s office - but to make sure you at home are comfortable when you need emergency assistance.
> ”We had to think of the best way to recognize who’s vaccinated and who’s not,” said Mecklenburg County Sheriff Garry McFadden.
> The wristband says “MCSO vaccinated.”
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 11766
> 
> 
> Know YOUR History or you will be destined to repeat it.
> The above examples are the very tip of the spear.
> Remember and RESIST.
> 
> 
> View attachment 11770


Crazy coo coo birds out there bro and I'm sure glad it's not 1938.  The SS Espola & EOTL and Husker types would love nothing better then to lock your ass up IZ and strap the mark around your wrist and they would love to shut my mouth by cutting out my tongue and cut my hands off so I can;t type.


----------



## Grace T.

I recall EOTL trashed it when I said the same thing.....









						'Concerned': Bay Area elected officials battle health officers on masks
					

In California, county health officers — none of whom are elected — are given...




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Crazy coo coo birds out there bro and I'm sure glad it's not 1938.  The SS Espola & EOTL and Husker types would love nothing better then to lock your ass up IZ and strap the mark around your wrist and they would love to shut my mouth by cutting out my tongue and cut my hands off so I can;t type.


Honestly, we’d just like enough people to get vaccinated that this whole bloody thing goes away.  That probably won’t happen.  

I don’t care whether you individually refuse the shot.  It only becomes a problem when so many people refuse the shot that you create a significant resevoir.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Honestly, we’d just like enough people to get vaccinated that this whole bloody thing goes away.  That probably won’t happen.
> 
> I don’t care whether you individually refuse the shot.  It only becomes a problem when so many people refuse the shot that you create a significant resevoir.


"whole bloody thing goes away"

The problem at this point is that no one believes that anymore because of what's been done in the past

Remember 14 days to slow the spread?
Then 30?
Then it will be all over by summer?
Then if everyone wore a mask this will all be over?
Then once we have therapeutics around the fall?
Then once the vulnerable were offered a vaccine?
Then when everyone was offered a vaccine?
Then when vaccination levels reached x %?
Then July 4?

And on top of it all there's no off ramp right now that's been articulated, so the "whole blood thing goes away" is even less persuasive. The thing is likely endemic so what does the "whole bloody thing goes away" even mean? In California with cases down aren't we there already?  The "whole bloody thing" hasn't gone away in California.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Honestly, we’d just like enough people to get vaccinated that this whole bloody thing goes away. That probably won’t happen.


It won't happen because vaxxed or not you can get the virus and spread it. 

That seems to be a key stumbling block that escapes you. 

This thing isn't going away. 

It will be endemic. Here to stay year by year.


----------



## Grace T.

The UK's supply chains have already hit a strain this week and there are warning signs that supply chains may be near the breaking point around the world, due in part to COVID restrictions.









						The workers who keep global supply chains moving are warning of a 'system collapse'
					

Seafarers, truck drivers and airline workers have endured quarantines, travel restrictions and complex Covid-19 vaccination and testing requirements to keep stretched supply chains moving during the pandemic.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Desert Hound

You also have billions in the third world who are not vaccinated now. 

The chances of those countries vaxxing all and then doing so year after year seems rather unlikely. They are third world for a reason....corrupt, inefficient, poor, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The UK's supply chains have already hit a strain this week and there are warning signs that supply chains may be near the breaking point around the world, due in part to COVID restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The workers who keep global supply chains moving are warning of a 'system collapse'
> 
> 
> Seafarers, truck drivers and airline workers have endured quarantines, travel restrictions and complex Covid-19 vaccination and testing requirements to keep stretched supply chains moving during the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com


We will likely have disruptions for some time. 

Kind of interesting as to how long it is taking to get things working efficiently again.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "whole bloody thing goes away"
> 
> The problem at this point is that no one believes that anymore because of what's been done in the past
> 
> Remember 14 days to slow the spread?
> Then 30?
> Then it will be all over by summer?
> Then if everyone wore a mask this will all be over?
> Then once we have therapeutics around the fall?
> Then once the vulnerable were offered a vaccine?
> Then when everyone was offered a vaccine?
> Then when vaccination levels reached x %?
> Then July 4?
> 
> And on top of it all there's no off ramp right now that's been articulated, so the "whole blood thing goes away" is even less persuasive. The thing is likely endemic so what does the "whole bloody thing goes away" even mean? In California with cases down aren't we there already?  The "whole bloody thing" hasn't gone away in California.


”Go away”, in this context, means “become endemic at a low level”.  Anything under one daily case per 100K residents, sustained.

This will happen when immunity hits 1-1/R, and not before. 

Remember that the virus can, and will, move the goalposts on you.  Alpha, Delta, and the LA variant all changed R, for example.  That moved the goalposts.  The next variant might change the effective vaccination rate.  That would move the line of scrimmage backward.  

Don’t like it?  Me either.  Science is descriptive, not fair.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of impacts to supply chains...









						Power crisis deepens in Asia and Europe: What it means to shipping
					

As some Chinese factories go dark, more delays for container imports but bullish sign for coal, LNG and oil shipping.




					www.freightwaves.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> ”Go away”, in this context, means “become endemic at a low level”.  Anything under one daily case per 100K residents, sustained.
> 
> This will happen when immunity hits 1-1/R, and not before.
> 
> Remember that the virus can, and will, move the goalposts on you.  Alpha, Delta, and the LA variant all changed R, for example.  That moved the goalposts.  The next variant might change the effective vaccination rate.  That would move the line of scrimmage backward.
> 
> Don’t like it?  Me either.  Science is descriptive, not fair.


Keep ordering delivery. I got my vaccine and, other than wearing a mask where required, I am living a normal for me - especially since I have avoided crowds for decades. You better hope enough people are like me. Someone needs to drop off your dinner. This isn't going away any time soon.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of impacts to supply chains...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Power crisis deepens in Asia and Europe: What it means to shipping
> 
> 
> As some Chinese factories go dark, more delays for container imports but bullish sign for coal, LNG and oil shipping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.freightwaves.com


Yeah, I'm really beginning to get nervous about this...the entire house of cards is teetering on a knife's edge....all it will take is one global incident such as a regional war and it all comes crashing down.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> ”Go away”, in this context, means “become endemic at a low level”.  Anything under one daily case per 100K residents, sustained.
> 
> This will happen when immunity hits 1-1/R, and not before.
> 
> Remember that the virus can, and will, move the goalposts on you.  Alpha, Delta, and the LA variant all changed R, for example.  That moved the goalposts.  The next variant might change the effective vaccination rate.  That would move the line of scrimmage backward.
> 
> Don’t like it?  Me either.  Science is descriptive, not fair.


Fortunately linear scientific thinking does't run most of day to day life.  For many, especially those that operate under the umbrella of public health, endemic management is essentially a reality and underway.  Even big Pharma has headed that way.  Plenty of $$$ to be made by selling disease management pills.  The pill industry is about to go off.     Now is a good time to make the jump into the Pharma sales world (merck comes to mind).

 Short of complete lockdown (imagine actually sealing our land borders and air ports of entry), we don't really have the power to make this virus "go away".  Many examples of these fruitless attempts all over the world.  Vaccinations, natural immunity, boosters will likely make the virus less effective at mutating.  Sure, antibodies wane over time but we have those  B and T cell thingies that are pretty cool and effective.  Sure, immunity wanes over time  but no question B and T cells will protect against severe disease and death.  No question we are on the glidepath to endemic land.  To recognize that is foolish.

Besides, all of the cool kids are getting breakthrough infections well inside of the wane period of all three vaccines.  As is the norm, bad messaging from the beginning on the capability and the limitations of the vaccines.  We've known all along how not good the vaccines were going to be in providing immunity.  We certainly knew how good they were going to be at preventing severe disease and hospitalization.  But here we are still talking about eradication.  Most people have moved on.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, I'm really beginning to get nervous about this...the entire house of cards is teetering on a knife's edge....all it will take is one global incident such as a regional war and it all comes crashing down.


Have you ever played cards with a sore loser?


----------



## crush

What's up with Fox.com?  This is all I see when i look.  I guess FBI called in Dog the Bounty Hunter  to crack the cold case.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> But here we are still talking about eradication. Most people have moved on.


I think many people have moved on. However many of our politicians have not. And that is why we see silly rules related to schools and sport as just one example.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I think many people have moved on. However many of our politicians have not. And that is why we see silly rules related to schools and sport as just one example.


The fact that some people who are vaccinated are getting the virus has pushed a segment of the population into a bit of a panic. Prior to this realization, we already had many who were/are happy to wear masks into perpetuity. This just added to it.


----------



## lafalafa

Desert Hound said:


> I think many people have moved on. However many of our politicians have not. And that is why we see silly rules related to schools and sport as just one example.


The amount of freedom being curtail is getting kind of scary from the politicians

Between the air travel and a entire city of LA considering mandating vax, mask, test at all indoor places yeah where is this heading?









						Proposed bill would require COVID vaccine, negative test for domestic air travel ahead of holidays
					

Travelers could be looking at new COVID restrictions as we embark on the holiday season. It's one of several COVID-related updates for the airline industry for the busiest travel season of the year.




					abc7.com
				




She is my representative and while I haven't reviewed this bill I sure most citizens on the block where I live would have preferred to be included in at least a discussion of options. 

https://abc7.com/covid-vaccine-indoor-mandate/11060467/


----------



## crush

lafalafa said:


> The amount of freedom being curtail is getting kind of scary from the politicians
> 
> Between the air travel and a entire city of LA considering mandating vax, mask, test at all indoor places yeah where is this heading?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposed bill would require COVID vaccine, negative test for domestic air travel ahead of holidays
> 
> 
> Travelers could be looking at new COVID restrictions as we embark on the holiday season. It's one of several COVID-related updates for the airline industry for the busiest travel season of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is my representative and while I haven't reviewed this bill I sure most citizens on the block where I live would have preferred to be included in at least a discussion of options.
> 
> https://abc7.com/covid-vaccine-indoor-mandate/11060467/


Kareem is nuts too.  He's calling it a war and the uniform is Vax and mask and that's the way it is and the 10% of the non vaxers in the NBA should be disciplined and fired.  Those anti vaxxers need to be dealt with Cap says.  This is getting scary Grace T.  I just got back from looking at the waves and the ships are everywhere.


----------



## Grace T.

lafalafa said:


> The amount of freedom being curtail is getting kind of scary from the politicians
> 
> Between the air travel and a entire city of LA considering mandating vax, mask, test at all indoor places yeah where is this heading?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposed bill would require COVID vaccine, negative test for domestic air travel ahead of holidays
> 
> 
> Travelers could be looking at new COVID restrictions as we embark on the holiday season. It's one of several COVID-related updates for the airline industry for the busiest travel season of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is my representative and while I haven't reviewed this bill I sure most citizens on the block where I live would have preferred to be included in at least a discussion of options.
> 
> https://abc7.com/covid-vaccine-indoor-mandate/11060467/


At least her bill has a natural immunity exception and is arguably much more Constitution than the Biden EO on employers.  

Though it is kind of ironic since she's been spotted without a mask a few times at Dulles/Reagan airport in the VIP lounge.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> There is no need for anyone to post anything critical of you.  Your content reveals your character sufficiently.


Thank You.
Your so kind.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> There is no need for anyone to post anything critical of you.  Your content reveals your character sufficiently.


Triggered


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Honestly, we’d just like enough people to get vaccinated that this whole bloody thing goes away.  That probably won’t happen.
> 
> I don’t care whether you individually refuse the shot.  It only becomes a problem when so many people refuse the shot that you create a significant resevoir.


It’s only a problem when you ignore the mandated immune system and science in general.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> "whole bloody thing goes away"
> 
> The problem at this point is that no one believes that anymore because of what's been done in the past
> 
> Remember 14 days to slow the spread?
> Then 30?
> Then it will be all over by summer?
> Then if everyone wore a mask this will all be over?
> Then once we have therapeutics around the fall?
> Then once the vulnerable were offered a vaccine?
> Then when everyone was offered a vaccine?
> Then when vaccination levels reached x %?
> Then July 4?
> 
> And on top of it all there's no off ramp right now that's been articulated, so the "whole blood thing goes away" is even less persuasive. The thing is likely endemic so what does the "whole bloody thing goes away" even mean? In California with cases down aren't we there already?  The "whole bloody thing" hasn't gone away in California.


Didn’t he have you at “Honestly”?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The UK's supply chains have already hit a strain this week and there are warning signs that supply chains may be near the breaking point around the world, due in part to COVID restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The workers who keep global supply chains moving are warning of a 'system collapse'
> 
> 
> Seafarers, truck drivers and airline workers have endured quarantines, travel restrictions and complex Covid-19 vaccination and testing requirements to keep stretched supply chains moving during the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com


Supply chain disruption is what a government addicted to interventions does.  Whether housing finance or healthcare, this is all about a bailout of the banks that have financed big pharma and healthcare.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

lafalafa said:


> The amount of freedom being curtail is getting kind of scary from the politicians
> 
> Between the air travel and a entire city of LA considering mandating vax, mask, test at all indoor places yeah where is this heading?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposed bill would require COVID vaccine, negative test for domestic air travel ahead of holidays
> 
> 
> Travelers could be looking at new COVID restrictions as we embark on the holiday season. It's one of several COVID-related updates for the airline industry for the busiest travel season of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is my representative and while I haven't reviewed this bill I sure most citizens on the block where I live would have preferred to be included in at least a discussion of options.
> 
> https://abc7.com/covid-vaccine-indoor-mandate/11060467/


Included in the discussion????!!!  That's not how Socialism works Uso.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

My only disagreement with this letter by my treasured colleague Bryan Caplan is with his endorsement of Covid-19 vaccine mandates on campus. Here are two slices from this splendid missive:

Dear University Presidents:

We all know that higher education falls far short of its promise.  *I’ve spent a large part of my twenty five years as a research professor documenting the shortcomings of our system.*  Perhaps you’re even familiar with my _The Case Against Education_ (Princeton University Press, 2018).  In recent years, however, we’ve begun failing our students in new and improved ways.  In the past, we failed to transform our students into thoughtful and knowledgeable adults, but at least most of them had a great four-year party (or often a five- or six-year party).  Now we’re making the college experience itself actively dehumanizing.

*This is most obvious when we look at our forever war on Covid.*  Virtually every college in America has a vaccine mandate – a wise move, in my view. * Yet instead of using these amazing vaccines to return to normalcy, virtually every college in America continues to aggressively “fight Covid.”*  Our policies would have been unthinkable two years ago: Indoor mask mandates.  50% seating in dining halls.  Excluding guests from live performances.  Social distancing.  *All combined with sporadic yet self-righteous enforcement.*

These policies aren’t merely “inconvenient.”  They are _dehumanizing_.  Showing other people how we feel – and seeing how they feel in turn – is a basic part of being a human being.  A basic part of making friends.  A basic part of connecting with a community.  True, most students in the Covid era continue to make friends – and even smile on occasion.  As _Jurassic Park_ teaches us, “Life finds a way.”  But this is still a stunted and twisted way for young people to live.

Sometimes, sadly, dehumanization is the price we pay to survive.  But this is not one of those times. * Even pre-vaccine, universities absurdly overreacted to Covid.  *Now that virtually everyone on campus has the vaccine, the overreaction is absurdly absurd. * A conservative estimate of Covid’s Infection Fatality Rate is .6%.* * For the college-age, divide that risk by 30.  For the vaccinated, divide by 10 again.  That means we’re talking 1-in-50,000, assuming a student even gets infected.  And of course, vaccines also greatly reduce infection and hence contagion.

I beg you, don’t reply with the fashionable preamble, “Out of an abundance of caution…”  Life is full of trade-offs.  Americans’ annual risk of dying in a car accident is roughly 1-in-9000, yet I doubt you would ban students from driving.*  Similarly, please don’t start telling me about high-risk students and older members of our campus community. * I am an “older member of our campus community,” and I know the risks.  That’s why I got vaccinated as soon as possible.  That’s enough to put my mind at ease; I face dozens of more serious risks every day.  But if that’s not safe enough for me, then I, not an entire generation of students, should bear the burden of isolation.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Cont:

*Nor is Covid the only issue where you are teaching paranoia.  Many schools – and probably most of the top ones – now kick off the academic year with a long series of mandatory brainwashing sessions.  You gather students together, then have your most fanatical employees preach against the evils of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and much more.  As with Covid, you show near-zero interest in measuring (a) the on-campus prevalence of these ills, or (b) the effectiveness of your inhumane remedies.  Instead, the brainwashing sessions just try to sow as much pessimism as possible.*

I doubt that most of this matters much; preaching against “racism” at college is like preaching against “sin” at church.  The people who need to hear the message are rarely in the audience.  *Nevertheless, there is one kind of brainwashing that probably does make a difference.  For the worse.

I’m talking about your training in sexual harassment and sexual assault.*

How can I say such a thing?  Because most young adults are _naturally_ shy around the opposite sex.  Many if not most female students are so shy that they will _never_ ask out a male student.  Many if not most male students are so shy that they have to spend weeks or months “working up their courage” to propose a date.  Social anxiety toward the opposite sex is a human universal, visible around the world and throughout history.  And what does your training in sexual harassment and sexual assault do?  Strive to _maximize_ students’ anxiety.  You try to convince female students that virtually any male is a plausible sexual predator.  And along the way, you make male students wonder if any social interaction with their female peers will be labelled “harassment” or even “assault.”

*None of this means that higher education should take sexual violence lightly.  The wise path, however, is to define sexual violence narrowly – and punish it harshly.  To treat it as an easily-identifiable aberration, a clear-cut crime, not something that an unbrainwashed person might do by accident.

Instead, you’ve taken the opposite path, of sowing paranoia.  And, though your brainwashing is only one small part of a sad Zeitgeist, the patterns are what you’d expect: High gender segregation, loneliness, and lovelessness.  Yes, extraverts land on their feet, but when I look at college campuses today, I feel sorry for the silent majority of shy kids.  In the past, they only had to worry about being ignored and rejected.  Now they have the added burden of paranoid fears of being victimized and demonized.  And if you protest, “Such problems are unlikely,” you’re telling the wrong person.  The people who need to hear that “Such problems are unlikely” are the students that you’re scaring to death.*


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Honestly, we’d just like enough people to get vaccinated that this whole bloody thing goes away.  That probably won’t happen.
> 
> I don’t care whether you individually refuse the shot.  It only becomes a problem when so many people refuse the shot that you create a significant resevoir.


Especially when we aren’t requiring immigrants to be vaccinated (legal or illegal that are released into the US).  But god forbid if you worked in a hospital for 10 months during the peak of the pandemic (without a vaccine) but don’t want to get the shot….you get fired and withheld from Unemployment Benefits.  

Talk about a violation of Constitutional Rights!

FYI - you can be Anti “Vaccine” Mandate without being Anti-“Vaccine”.  Yes I use quotes because a vaccine prevents someone from getting or spreading the disease the vaccine is intended for.  This “vaccine” does neither of those.  But it does help combat the effects of the virus.


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> Especially when we aren’t requiring immigrants to be vaccinated (legal or illegal that are released into the US).  But god forbid if you worked in a hospital for 10 months during the peak of the pandemic (without a vaccine) but don’t want to get the shot….you get fired and withheld from Unemployment Benefits.
> 
> *Talk about a violation of Constitutional Rights!*
> 
> FYI - you can be Anti “Vaccine” Mandate without being Anti-“Vaccine”.  Yes I use quotes because a vaccine prevents someone from getting or spreading the disease the vaccine is intended for.  This “vaccine” does neither of those.  But it does help combat the effects of the virus.


Or, no jab and you can't fly or no jab and cant play be recruited to be on the team at some Big U because it's mandated.  Or, if you play HSS you can't play in our league but then others cheat and get waivers at the last hour, after my kid already made the hard decision before goal post were moved.  Rules for thee and not for me sucks big time.  We are now ALL being ripped off and lied to Kicker.   A lie is a lie.  BTW, it's double the ships now out in front of my beach and it's 100% to do with this vaccine BS and pandemic that is just the flu and cover from the 2020 election steal.  If you go down deeper in the rabbit hole, you will find out that the Orange man is a good man and you will be the first to say you were wrong about him some day soon   The true reason were all in this mess is because of the human trafficking element that no one on here wants to talk about.  It's about saving all the kids from evil.  T said his #1 mission of his administration was to bring THE FULL FORCE OF FIRE POWER ((The Military)) to bring down this evil family of 13 that kill and abuse children. What were all witnessing is WHO is bought and bribed and blackmailed and WHO is not. Once all the bank robbers, cheaters and liars are video tapped robbing the bank, then all the indictments will be unsealed and then real change will come.  Hold the Line Kicker!!!









						HOLD THE LINE - PREPARE FOR THE STORM MAGA - WHERE WE GO ONE WE GO ALL
					

Boggles the mind how many Earthlings remain blissfully unaware that this war has been raging behind the veil since 2016 and already won. Everything we are watching on MSM is intended to show you how bad it would have gotten if the patriots hadn't s…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## what-happened

Kicker4Life said:


> Especially when we aren’t requiring immigrants to be vaccinated (legal or illegal that are released into the US).  But god forbid if you worked in a hospital for 10 months during the peak of the pandemic (without a vaccine) but don’t want to get the shot….you get fired and withheld from Unemployment Benefits.
> 
> Talk about a violation of Constitutional Rights!
> 
> FYI - you can be Anti “Vaccine” Mandate without being Anti-“Vaccine”.  Yes I use quotes because a vaccine prevents someone from getting or spreading the disease the vaccine is intended for.  This “vaccine” does neither of those.  But it does help combat the effects of the virus.


It is 100% lunacy


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Especially when we aren’t requiring immigrants to be vaccinated (legal or illegal that are released into the US).  But god forbid if you worked in a hospital for 10 months during the peak of the pandemic (without a vaccine) but don’t want to get the shot….you get fired and withheld from Unemployment Benefits.
> 
> Talk about a violation of Constitutional Rights!
> 
> FYI - you can be Anti “Vaccine” Mandate without being Anti-“Vaccine”.  Yes I use quotes because a vaccine prevents someone from getting or spreading the disease the vaccine is intended for.  This “vaccine” does neither of those.  But it does help combat the effects of the virus.


You apparently have little idea how a vaccine works.


----------



## Grace T.

A new study out on the transmissibility of breakthrough infections.  As usual with COVID, a little for everyone to hate and won't swing the debate fully between mandates or not (sigh)

Some talking points:
-The vaccines are less effective at stopping the transmissibility of the Delta than previous variants (but we pretty much knew that already)
-The drop off effects are more severe in the elderly (which is why they are talking boosters)
-The vaccinated transmit the virus on less than the unvaccinated with naive (i.e. no prior infection) infections.  This is due to: a) they are just simply less likely to catch it, b) they are sick for shorter periods, and c) they have smaller viral loads on average.
-But against the Delta the vaccinated can still transmit it on (and they leave open the question over whether the reduction is enough, as dad4 would put it, to make it all bloody over).
-Children are less likely to catch/transmit (in which case what are we, the US, doing in schools right now???)

The long and short of it is that this gives fuel for both sides of the vaccine mandate debate, without resolving it definitely one way or the other.  On the one hand, there is substantial evidence that there is a public health benefit to vaccination even if they don't stop transmissions, because there is a substantial reduction in transmissions.  On the other hand, even with vaccination you can still transmit on the virus and it is insufficiently clear if vaccination (given the waning immunity they also confirmed) is enough to end the pandemic.  The matter is even more complicated for children, which we've seen from elsewhere have little risk and now seem to already transmit at a lower rate.









						The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission
					

Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You apparently have little idea how a vaccine works.


please explain.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> You apparently have little idea how a vaccine works.


Please name another vaccine that does not prevent the host from getting the illness and/or transmitting it to others……


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> Please name another vaccine that does not prevent the host from getting the illness and/or transmitting it to others……


Flu  

p.s. IIRC rotavirus too.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> Flu
> 
> p.s. IIRC rotavirus too.


I’ve never heard it called a Flu Vaccine, only a Flu Shot.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> A new study out on the transmissibility of breakthrough infections.  As usual with COVID, a little for everyone to hate and won't swing the debate fully between mandates or not (sigh)
> 
> Some talking points:
> -The vaccines are less effective at stopping the transmissibility of the Delta than previous variants (but we pretty much knew that already)
> -The drop off effects are more severe in the elderly (which is why they are talking boosters)
> -The vaccinated transmit the virus on less than the unvaccinated with naive (i.e. no prior infection) infections.  This is due to: a) they are just simply less likely to catch it, b) they are sick for shorter periods, and c) they have smaller viral loads on average.
> -But against the Delta the vaccinated can still transmit it on (and they leave open the question over whether the reduction is enough, as dad4 would put it, to make it all bloody over).
> -Children are less likely to catch/transmit (in which case what are we, the US, doing in schools right now???)
> 
> The long and short of it is that this gives fuel for both sides of the vaccine mandate debate, without resolving it definitely one way or the other.  On the one hand, there is substantial evidence that there is a public health benefit to vaccination even if they don't stop transmissions, because there is a substantial reduction in transmissions.  On the other hand, even with vaccination you can still transmit on the virus and it is insufficiently clear if vaccination (given the waning immunity they also confirmed) is enough to end the pandemic.  The matter is even more complicated for children, which we've seen from elsewhere have little risk and now seem to already transmit at a lower rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission
> 
> 
> Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


The paper is pretty clear that vaccines reduce transmission by a significant margin.  Cuts it by roughly 2/3 to 1/2.

That's enough data to tell you roughly what you need for it to be over.  Vax alone is not enough.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> The paper is pretty clear that vaccines reduce transmission by a significant margin.  Cuts it by roughly 2/3 to 1/2.
> 
> That's enough data to tell you roughly what you need for it to be over.  Vax alone is not enough.


For what to be “over”?  The Government overreach?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> please explain.


Vaccines can only work inside your body, so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you.  Start there.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Please name another vaccine that does not prevent the host from getting the illness and/or transmitting it to others……


Name a vaccine that is 100% effective.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Flu
> 
> p.s. IIRC rotavirus too.


More ignorance.


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker4Life said:


> Please name another vaccine that does not prevent the host from getting the illness and/or transmitting it to others……


I mean a simple google search brought this informative link up:





__





						Efficacy and effectiveness
					

An explanation of how the success of vaccines can be measured, including the duration of vaccine protection.




					www.immune.org.nz


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> I’ve never heard it called a Flu Vaccine, only a Flu Shot.


The proper name would be  "inoculation", since the common word "vaccine" originally referred to substances obtained from infected cows.  Latin for "cow" is "vacca".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The paper is pretty clear that vaccines reduce transmission by a significant margin.  Cuts it by roughly 2/3 to 1/2.
> 
> That's enough data to tell you roughly what you need for it to be over.  Vax alone is not enough.


The England/Sweden/Denmark/Norway/Japan route then....natural infection after vaccination?  Seems like then we should be removing the last of the remaining restrictions then.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Vaccines can only work inside your body, *so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you*.  Start there.


wait, whaaat??


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> It is 100% lunacy


Tyranny


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> wait, whaaat??


Any vaccine works by strengthening your body's immune system so that it is better able to fight off the infection if you get it.  Did you think perhaps that it wrapped your body in an invisible protective shield that the virus could not penetrate?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The England/Sweden/Denmark/Norway/Japan route then....natural infection after vaccination?  Seems like then we should be removing the last of the remaining restrictions then.


Strawman.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The paper is pretty clear that vaccines reduce transmission by a significant margin.  Cuts it by roughly 2/3 to 1/2.
> 
> That's enough data to tell you roughly what you need for it to be over.  Vax alone is not enough.


We already know the immune system is the crutch that vaccines rely on for their inflated efficacy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Any vaccine works by strengthening your body's immune system so that it is better able to fight off the infection if you get it.  Did you think perhaps that it wrapped your body in an invisible protective shield that the virus could not penetrate?


You’re babbling.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Strawman.



It's funny you still don't know what that means.  

To quote dad4, he said "vax alone is not enough". I'm agreeing with him, and postulating one possible answer to his question since he hasn't articulate his (but we can all guess what it likely is).

In any case thanks for the laugh.  You always bring a smile to my day.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's funny you still don't know what that means.
> 
> To quote dad4, he said "vax alone is not enough". I'm agreeing with him, and postulating one possible answer to his question since he hasn't articulate his (but we can all guess what it likely is).
> 
> In any case thanks for the laugh.  You always bring a smile to my day.


I know perfectly well what it means.  You seem to think it is an effective argument technique, despite your alleged "Oxford debate" training.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> For what to be “over”?  The Government overreach?


Overreach.  You think we went too far.  Got it.  

So, what, if anything, should we have done?  Beginning in March 2020, what measures have you supported to limit hospitalizations and deaths from covid?

Supported at the time.  I’m not asking what you now support, with the benefit of hindsight.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It's funny you still don't know what that means.
> 
> To quote dad4, he said "vax alone is not enough". I'm agreeing with him, and postulating one possible answer to his question since he hasn't articulate his (but we can all guess what it likely is).
> 
> In any case thanks for the laugh.  You always bring a smile to my day.


If you are proposing “vaccinate, then open up”, remember that you have to actually do the innoculations.   

“half-assed vaccination effort, fill the ICU, then ration care” is a completely different plan.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you are proposing “vaccinate, then open up”, remember that you have to actually do the innoculations.
> 
> “half-assed vaccination effort, fill the ICU, then ration care” is a completely different plan.


The issue with that is that not everywhere is in danger of rationed care.  So you could fully open up California, Florida, Texas now under your rational.  You couldn't open up highly vaxxed Vermont, Oregon or Washington.

I'm disappointed you went that way as a result....was hoping you would have gone to your what was needed.  Would have been fun.


----------



## Grace T.

Don't agree with everything in the piece but an interesting part is why the highly Christian areas aren't really afraid of COVID, but the less religious parts of the country are.  It echoes the entire COVID Interventionalism-as-religion argument we've talked about here.









						New York Governor Confirms Covidianism Is A Pagan Cult
					

Self-appointed pope Kathy Hochul appeared at a megachurch, saying 'I need you to be my apostles' for preaching universal vaccination to the unsaved.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Overreach.  You think we went too far.  Got it.
> 
> So, what, if anything, should we have done?  Beginning in March 2020, what measures have you supported to limit hospitalizations and deaths from covid?
> 
> Supported at the time.  I’m not asking what you now support, with the benefit of hindsight.


You didn't ask me. but allow me to butt in with my opinion.  Back when we didn't have a vaccine and the only alleged cures were no better than dancing in the moonlight on midsummer night, it made sense to practice things that we knew how to do and could afford -- masks and distancing, for instance, and restricting businesses whose benefits did not outweigh the risks involved (the image that comes easily to mind is fitness centers).  I think that after a couple of months of that when we had found out more about the disease we could have relaxed the restrictions to something more sensible, but by then people had taken political positions without any relation to reality.  Now that we have several choices of effective vaccines, and reports of medicines that may be cures, it's well past time to stop whining.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The issue with that is that not everywhere is in danger of rationed care.  So you could fully open up California, Florida, Texas now under your rational.  You couldn't open up highly vaxxed Vermont, Oregon or Washington.
> 
> I'm disappointed you went that way as a result....was hoping you would have gone to your what was needed.  Would have been fun.


Strawman.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Any vaccine works by strengthening your body's immune system so that it is better able to fight off the infection if you get it.  *Did you think perhaps that it wrapped your body in an invisible protective shield that the virus could not penetrate?*


We leave that up to masks, don't you remember?  Please elaborate on the " so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you". Do you mean that the vaccine is more effective if you've already been infected with the disease, or does the vaccine infect you with the disease and then it becomes effective?  I'm trying to understand soccer forum internet medicine.  I'm rusty.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Don't agree with everything in the piece but an interesting part is why the highly Christian areas aren't really afraid of COVID, but the less religious parts of the country are.  It echoes the entire COVID Interventionalism-as-religion argument we've talked about here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New York Governor Confirms Covidianism Is A Pagan Cult
> 
> 
> Self-appointed pope Kathy Hochul appeared at a megachurch, saying 'I need you to be my apostles' for preaching universal vaccination to the unsaved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefederalist.com


Now I see where you get your strawman habit from.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Overreach.  You think we went too far.  Got it.
> 
> So, what, if anything, should we have done?  Beginning in March 2020, what measures have you supported to limit hospitalizations and deaths from covid?
> 
> Supported at the time.  I’m not asking what you now support, with the benefit of hindsight.


You could do what I suggested from the beginning and rather than have blanket national or statewide lockdowns you reserved them (and whatever effectiveness they had) for periods of severe COVID, you could have moved a lot of activities outdoors (I was saying this in April 2020), and you could have had a more productive mask policy that emphasized N95/KN95 production instead of cloth masks (again was saying this in April 2020).  You could have also said, hey, maybe the BLM protests weren't the best idea in the middle of a pandemic (particularly after we came down on the churches), schools should have been open in fall of 2020, citizens encouraged to get exercise and vitamin D, not deliberately lied to them about health policies and been honest with them, not played politics with the vaccine, fired/retired Fauci (who has been a disaster on messaging), sheltered the nursing homes (I came out against the Cuomo policies in March 2020), and not exempted certain high risk things (like air travel and construction) when you actually were doing lockdowns.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Strawman.


O.k. I fell down hysterically laughing on that one.  You are a gem!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The issue with that is that not everywhere is in danger of rationed care.  So you could fully open up California, Florida, Texas now under your rational.  You couldn't open up highly vaxxed Vermont, Oregon or Washington.
> 
> I'm disappointed you went that way as a result....was hoping you would have gone to your what was needed.  Would have been fun.


“Do the bare minimum to avoid care rationing” is a third plan, I suppose.

Not a smart plan, of course.  But it is a plan.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You didn't ask me. but allow me to butt in with my opinion.  Back when we didn't have a vaccine and the only alleged cures were no better than dancing in the moonlight on midsummer night, it made sense to practice things that we knew how to do and could afford -- masks and distancing, for instance, and restricting businesses whose benefits did not outweigh the risks involved (the image that comes easily to mind is fitness centers).  I think that after a couple of months of that when we had found out more about the disease we could have relaxed the restrictions to something more sensible, but by then people had taken political positions without any relation to reality.  Now that we have several choices of effective vaccines, *and reports of medicines that may be cures, it's well past time to stop whining.*


Internet medicine again?  What cures are forthcoming?  Are you referring to maybe, possibly, expanding on disease management capability?  Or is there a magical pill on the FDA's horizon.  Pills are where the money is.  Easy to manufacture, easy to patent, easy to stockpile, and resiliant to staying on pharmacy shelves.  Easy money.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> “Do the bare minimum to avoid care rationing” is a third plan, I suppose.
> 
> Not a smart plan, of course.  But it is a plan.


If rationing care is your concern (which you articulated it was), I fail to see why it isn't a "smart plan".  It addresses your stated concern (don't flood the hospitals) while at the same time pursuing the underlying approach outlined in the English approach.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Name a vaccine that is 100% effective.


Polio


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> “Do the bare minimum to avoid care rationing” is a third plan, I suppose.
> 
> Not a smart plan, of course.  But it is a plan.


You mention "care rationing" a lot.  The lockdown and the fear mongering actually caused, far more "care rationing" and "care avoidance" than the actual Covid infection did.  The full extent of the repercussions of the lockdown and fear "care rationing/avoidance" are still yet to be seen.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Overreach.  You think we went too far.  Got it.
> 
> So, what, if anything, should we have done?  Beginning in March 2020, what measures have you supported to limit hospitalizations and deaths from covid?
> 
> Supported at the time.  I’m not asking what you now support, with the benefit of hindsight.


Vaccine Passports and Mandates
Mask Mandates
The list goes on and on….

Should we talk about Australia?  I know it’s your Utopia, but is also the benchmark for overreach.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> We leave that up to masks, don't you remember?  Please elaborate on the " so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you". Do you mean that the vaccine is more effective if you've already been infected with the disease, or does the vaccine infect you with the disease and then it becomes effective?  I'm trying to understand soccer forum internet medicine.  I'm rusty.


I thought I was pretty clear.  Vaccines work by helping your body produce antibodies that can kill or weaken the virus inside your body.  Is this news to you?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You could do what I suggested from the beginning and rather than have blanket national or statewide lockdowns you reserved them (and whatever effectiveness they had) for periods of severe COVID, you could have moved a lot of activities outdoors (I was saying this in April 2020), and you could have had a more productive mask policy that emphasized N95/KN95 production instead of cloth masks (again was saying this in April 2020).  You could have also said, hey, maybe the BLM protests weren't the best idea in the middle of a pandemic (particularly after we came down on the churches), schools should have been open in fall of 2020, citizens encouraged to get exercise and vitamin D, not deliberately lied to them about health policies and been honest with them, not played politics with the vaccine, fired/retired Fauci (who has been a disaster on messaging), sheltered the nursing homes (I came out against the Cuomo policies in March 2020), and not exempted certain high risk things (like air travel and construction) when you actually were doing lockdowns.


You have a very selective memory.  You also spent a good 16 months here telling people that masks do not work.  Nor did you support any of the original closures- indoor or outdoor.  

Had we followed your advice at the time, we would have had a nationwide prime spike in April/May 2020.  Peak would have been over long before your new N95 factories came online.  Best guess for that plan is the old Imperial College 2.2 million deaths estimate.

About 3x as many deaths as we got with what we did.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> O.k. I fell down hysterically laughing on that one.  You are a gem!!!


Clueless.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Internet medicine again?  What cures are forthcoming?  Are you referring to maybe, possibly, expanding on disease management capability?  Or is there a magical pill on the FDA's horizon.  Pills are where the money is.  Easy to manufacture, easy to patent, easy to stockpile, and resiliant to staying on pharmacy shelves.  Easy money.


I posted this in the good news thread Monday --









						A pill to treat Covid-19: 'We're talking about a return to, maybe, normal life' | CNN
					

Antivirals are already essential treatments for other viral infections, including hepatitis C and HIV. One of the best known is Tamiflu, the widely prescribed pill that can shorten the duration of influenza and reduce the risk of hospitalization if given quickly.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Polio


Almost --





__





						Polio Vaccine Effectiveness and Duration of Protection | CDC
					

Information about the effectiveness of the polio vaccine and how long it provides immunity against poliovirus.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You mention "care rationing" a lot.  The lockdown and the fear mongering actually caused, far more "care rationing" and "care avoidance" than the actual Covid infection did.  The full extent of the repercussions of the lockdown and fear "care rationing/avoidance" are still yet to be seen.


The only fearmongering I have seen is from the antivax crowd.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You mention "care rationing" a lot.  The lockdown and the fear mongering actually caused, far more "care rationing" and "care avoidance" than the actual Covid infection did.  The full extent of the repercussions of the lockdown and fear "care rationing/avoidance" are still yet to be seen.


If we had not done the lockdowns/masks, we would have had the 2.2 million deaths that Imperial College forecast.  All compressed into one really bad summer.  

If that had happened, people would have started avoiding medical centers all on their own.  You get the same care avoidance result, just more intense.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Almost --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polio Vaccine Effectiveness and Duration of Protection | CDC
> 
> 
> Information about the effectiveness of the polio vaccine and how long it provides immunity against poliovirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Touché


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> You mention "care rationing" a lot.  The lockdown and the fear mongering actually caused, far more "care rationing" and "care avoidance" than the actual Covid infection did.  The full extent of the repercussions of the lockdown and fear "care rationing/avoidance" are still yet to be seen.


This is very true.  Just like we are beginning to see the effects for example on the supply chains.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If we had not done the lockdowns/masks, we would have had the 2.2 million deaths that Imperial College forecast.  All compressed into one really bad summer.


Pure speculation, and there is no basis in reality for that conclusion. It surprises me you still put any faith in Covid forecasts.   There just isn't any compelling evidence that any approach from various countries or states resulted in better or worse results from a Covid standpoint.  Unemployment and economics? Yes. Covid? No.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> Vaccine Passports and Mandates
> Mask Mandates
> The list goes on and on….
> 
> Should we talk about Australia?  I know it’s your Utopia, but is also the benchmark for overreach.


Up until a few months ago, I thought the poisonous spiders and snakes were the worst thing about Australia.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You have a very selective memory.  You also spent a good 16 months here telling people that masks do not work.  Nor did you support any of the original closures- indoor or outdoor.
> 
> Had we followed your advice at the time, we would have had a nationwide prime spike in April/May 2020.  Peak would have been over long before your new N95 factories came online.  Best guess for that plan is the old Imperial College 2.2 million deaths estimate.
> 
> About 3x as many deaths as we got with what we did.


See the federalist article I posted.  YOU have a very selective memory because your religious views bend you to seeing the world a certain way.

I always said lockdowns should have been targeted and no outdoor lockdowns.  I also didn't say in low risk areas to just have at it (I supported a Sweden strategy with some restrictions such as shuttering Disneyland).  I also didn't say masks do not work...I said on a macro level they only work a little (at least against the prime).

But your "nationwide prime" spike is a fallacy.  First, due to seasonality, we were heading into a time period where the climate worked in our favor.  Second, the Imperial College models have been shown to be absolute failures (most recently in predicting that despite England dropping restrictions cases would spiral out of control)....burn the models was another approach we should have probably followed.  Third, the problem with lockdowns (as I said at the time) was the population would only honor them for a short period of time...you needed to save your ammo at times the hospitals were in danger of being overflooded, which in a country the size of the US with different climates and seasons wouldn't have happened all at once.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If we had not done the lockdowns/masks, we would have had the 2.2 million deaths that Imperial College forecast.  All compressed into one really bad summer.


Based on how accurate predictions have been? Predictions are made and when they are incorrect, it is attributed to changed behavior. Can't lose that way.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I thought I was pretty clear.  Vaccines work by helping your body produce antibodies that can kill or weaken the virus inside your body.  Is this news to you?


I get what you were trying to say.  I was/am confused by the " so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you" part.  You typed it, not me.  Tighten up your cut and paste skillset.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Based on how accurate predictions have been? Predictions are made and when they are incorrect, it is attributed to changed behavior. Can't lose that way.


So TRUE!


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Based on how accurate predictions have been? Predictions are made and when they are incorrect, it is attributed to changed behavior. Can't lose that way.


Well the predictions about the exponential growth in England once the restrictions were dropped should have put a nail in the coffins in the modelers.  They were just wrong about everything.  I'm with watfly here....it's surprising he still puts any stock in them, but that's what happens with religious talismans.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I posted this in the good news thread Monday --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A pill to treat Covid-19: 'We're talking about a return to, maybe, normal life' | CNN
> 
> 
> Antivirals are already essential treatments for other viral infections, including hepatitis C and HIV. One of the best known is Tamiflu, the widely prescribed pill that can shorten the duration of influenza and reduce the risk of hospitalization if given quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


That is good news, especially for the pharma world.  Easier to make more money.  Easier to manufacture, distribute, store, etc. With that said, people are more apt to pop a pill than to line up for a shot.  Mabye those crazy anti vaxxers can be saved yet. 

Not a cure but a treatment.


----------



## Desert Hound

I will just put this here.

These are the same people advocating policies, etc.

Pregnant people?

We live in an age of idiots.









						CDC urges pregnant people to get vaccinated against COVID-19
					

Fewer than one-third of pregnant people in the United States are fully vaccinated against COVID-19, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.




					www.upi.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> See the federalist article I posted.  YOU have a very selective memory because your religious views bend you to seeing the world a certain way.
> 
> I always said lockdowns should have been targeted and no outdoor lockdowns.  I also didn't say in low risk areas to just have at it (I supported a Sweden strategy with some restrictions such as shuttering Disneyland).  I also didn't say masks do not work...I said on a macro level they only work a little (at least against the prime).
> 
> But your "nationwide prime" spike is a fallacy.  First, due to seasonality, we were heading into a time period where the climate worked in our favor.  Second, the Imperial College models have been shown to be absolute failures (most recently in predicting that despite England dropping restrictions cases would spiral out of control)....burn the models was another approach we should have probably followed.  Third, the problem with lockdowns (as I said at the time) was the population would only honor them for a short period of time...you needed to save your ammo at times the hospitals were in danger of being overflooded, which in a country the size of the US with different climates and seasons wouldn't have happened all at once.


Federalist is a humor magazine, not a medical journal.

Explain your concept of "seasonality" in light of the fact that the biggest surge occurred in the Summer.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I get what you were trying to say.  I was/am confused by the " so to be effective, you have to already have the disease in you" part.  You typed it, not me.  Tighten up your cut and paste skillset.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I will just put this here.
> 
> These are the same people advocating policies, etc.
> 
> Pregnant people?
> 
> We live in an age of idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC urges pregnant people to get vaccinated against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Fewer than one-third of pregnant people in the United States are fully vaccinated against COVID-19, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.upi.com


What did they get wrong?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Pure speculation, and there is no basis in reality for that conclusion. It surprises me you still put any faith in Covid forecasts.   There just isn't any compelling evidence that any approach from various countries or states resulted in better or worse results from a Covid standpoint.  Unemployment and economics? Yes. Covid? No.


There is significant evidence that, aside from vaccines, the US approach has done considerably worse than most countries.

If you can't admit that much, you're in one heck of an information bubble.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Federalist is a humor magazine, not a medical journal.
> 
> Explain your concept of "seasonality" in light of the fact that the biggest surge occurred in the Summer.


They are talking outlooks towards death, not medicine.  A more proper critique would have been to criticize for not being a psychological journal, but as usual you miss the mark.

It's apparent at this point that seasonality is just one of several factors at stake.  More infectious Delta--> bigger surges.  But with the prime in 2020, there just simply wasn't a reason to be concerned in the northern and central states.  They were placed in a lockdown at the wrong time, and by the time a lockdown was needed in winter, people were too exhausted.  There was a study on the lockdowns to this effect I posted a while back.


----------



## Grace T.

This is another key mistake they made (neglecting natural immunity) and they've painted themselves into a political corner as a result and also shattered their credibility.  The mandate fights wouldn't have been as problematic if they had even made an attempt to recognize it.









						Why "Natural Immunity" Is a Political Problem for the Regime | Ryan McMaken
					

Since 2020, public health technocrats and their allies among elected officials have clung to the position that absolutely every person who can possibly get a covid vaccine should get one.




					mises.org


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> The only fearmongering I have seen is from the antivax crowd.


Right!  So when Biden said Covid has killed more kids under 17 than the regular Flu….was he just trying to uplift everyone?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I will just put this here.
> 
> These are the same people advocating policies, etc.
> 
> Pregnant people?
> 
> We live in an age of idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC urges pregnant people to get vaccinated against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Fewer than one-third of pregnant people in the United States are fully vaccinated against COVID-19, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.upi.com


I have a really hard time understanding the math on this one.  It may turn out to be perfectly safe for pregnant birthing people, but lets not pretend we know its safe at this point.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Name a vaccine that is 100% effective.


What effect are you talking about?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You apparently have little idea how a vaccine works.


By fear mostly.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> There is significant evidence that, aside from vaccines, the US approach has done considerably worse than most countries.
> 
> If you can't admit that much, you're in one heck of an information bubble.


Sure, and you can also say that our population and health has a lot to do with it. We have a large elderly and overweight population.   To dismiss that outright  especially the overweight piece, is irresponsible.  We are the 12 fattest (I think) in the world, behind a lot of Island nations.  But we aren't mandating 8 oz cups at Micky Ds - that's a personal decision.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> There is significant evidence that, aside from vaccines, the US approach has done considerably worse than most countries.
> 
> If you can't admit that much, you're in one heck of an information bubble.


What is the evidence that the United States has done considerably worse? Maybe you   were thinking Australia?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I posted this in the good news thread Monday --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A pill to treat Covid-19: 'We're talking about a return to, maybe, normal life' | CNN
> 
> 
> Antivirals are already essential treatments for other viral infections, including hepatitis C and HIV. One of the best known is Tamiflu, the widely prescribed pill that can shorten the duration of influenza and reduce the risk of hospitalization if given quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Little late jumping on the therapy wagon aren’t you? Docspola?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> They are talking outlooks towards death, not medicine.  A more proper critique would have been to criticize for not being a psychological journal, but as usual you miss the mark.
> 
> It's apparent at this point that seasonality is just one of several factors at stake.  More infectious Delta--> bigger surges.  But with the prime in 2020, there just simply wasn't a reason to be concerned in the northern and central states.  They were placed in a lockdown at the wrong time, and by the time a lockdown was needed in winter, people were too exhausted.  There was a study on the lockdowns to this effect I posted a while back.


Despite your trivialities, it's still a humor magazine.  Based on their commercial success, they know their audience well.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is significant evidence that, aside from vaccines, the US approach has done considerably worse than most countries.
> 
> If you can't admit that much, you're in one heck of an information bubble.


The only way to try and prove your point is to cherry pick countries.  There are just too many variables to claim any material causal link between restrictions and Covid results.  I'm not proposing that we should have done nothing, but the difference between doing something and blanket shutdowns is immaterial at best, particularly given the nature of our country considering, among other things, our Constitution and thousands of miles of open borders and airports.

I'm also not suggesting that lockdowns don't have the ability to limit transmission, but they clearly don't provide enough benefit, given the cost, to justify their implementation.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> There is significant evidence that, aside from vaccines, the US approach has done considerably worse than most countries.
> 
> If you can't admit that much, you're in one heck of an information bubble.


"considerably worse".  Depends what you mean by that.  If you are talking deaths per million, the US in par with the UK, doing worse than Russia (where most of the population is suspicious of the vaccines) and your favorite Sweden, significantly worse than worse in the world Peru (despite its lockdowns and masks) and Argentina (perpetual lockdowns), and behind Hungary, Czechia, Belgium, Italy, and Croatia.   If we hadn't had the early disaster with the nursing homes in New York and New Jersey, we would be on par with France and Spain.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Despite your trivialities,


I swear sometimes I really think crush is right and you do it deliberately just to amuse us (and yourself).  "despite your trivialities" says the king of the trivialities that likes to latch on to errant bones.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> "considerably worse".  Depends what you mean by that.  If you are talking deaths per million, the US in par with the UK, doing worse than Russia (where most of the population is suspicious of the vaccines) and your favorite Sweden, significantly worse than worse in the world Peru (despite its lockdowns and masks) and Argentina (perpetual lockdowns), and behind Hungary, Czechia, Belgium, Italy, and Croatia.   If we hadn't had the early disaster with the nursing homes in New York and New Jersey, we would be on par with France and Spain.


Here is some cherry picking for you.  Tanzania has the lowest deaths per million of any country.

_"However, unlike many successful countries, *Tanzania did not implement a lockdown*, since the government suggested it would restrict public access to health services – especially for patients with chronic conditions like tuberculosis and HIV, which are both prevalent diseases in the country."_

Tanzania is no more proof that lockdowns don't work than a country that had strict lockdowns with low deaths is proof that lockdowns work.  In the spirit of full disclosure Tanzania did implement social distancing and mandatory mask mandates early in the pandemic starting in February 2020.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> What did I get wrong?


The disease is the result of the virus.  You should have said ‘have the virus in you’, not the ‘disease’.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Here is some cherry picking for you.  Tanzania has the lowest deaths per million of any country.
> 
> _"However, unlike many successful countries, *Tanzania did not implement a lockdown*, since the government suggested it would restrict public access to health services – especially for patients with chronic conditions like tuberculosis and HIV, which are both prevalent diseases in the country."_
> 
> Tanzania is no more proof that lockdowns don't work than a country that had strict lockdowns with low deaths is proof that lockdowns work.  In the spirit of full disclosure Tanzania did implement social distancing and mandatory mask mandates early in the pandemic starting in February 2020.


the other thing affecting the stats is how they count.  We know, for example, that Russia (which has very limited mask compliance and high vaccine hesistancy) undercounts.  We know the US and UK have issues with overcounts from dying "with COVID" instead of "from COVID", though we don't know how much, but the Utah and child audits suggest it could be as much as by 1/2.  Germany, Spain and France are all much more restrictive in their COVID counts, which would explain Spain doing as well as it does relative to others despite suffering from multiple waves, much more so than other countries.  Italy is artificially inflated due to the triage they had to do early in the pandemic and lack of testing.  Czechia remember was the poster boy for "doing everything right" and then imploded with multiple winter waves that overwhelmed their hospital systems and had people die due to lack of capacity.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> The disease is the result of the virus.  You should have said ‘have the virus in you’, not the ‘disease’.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> the other thing affecting the stats is how they count.  We know, for example, that Russia (which has very limited mask compliance and high vaccine hesistancy) undercounts.  We know the US and UK have issues with overcounts from dying "with COVID" instead of "from COVID", though we don't know how much, but the Utah and child audits suggest it could be as much as by 1/2.  Germany, Spain and France are all much more restrictive in their COVID counts, which would explain Spain doing as well as it does relative to others despite suffering from multiple waves, much more so than other countries.  Italy is artificially inflated due to the triage they had to do early in the pandemic and lack of testing.  Czechia remember was the poster boy for "doing everything right" and then imploded with multiple winter waves that overwhelmed their hospital systems and had people die due to lack of capacity.


So are you saying you trust China's numbers?


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So are you saying you trust China's numbers?


Seems legit that their official number is 4600 deaths right? 

On a side note some other numbers to ponder. 

The official worldwide death count is 4.8 million. 

The US count is 700k. 

Do we really believe that the US constitutes 14.5% of all deaths worldwide? When we constitute about 4.3% of the world population? And we have one of the top healthcare systems in the world? 

Either we are dramatically OVERCOUNTING deaths, or the rest of the world is severely UNDERCOUNTING deaths. Or a combo thereof.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> the other thing affecting the stats is how they count.  We know, for example, that Russia (which has very limited mask compliance and high vaccine hesistancy) undercounts.  We know the US and UK have issues with overcounts from dying "with COVID" instead of "from COVID", though we don't know how much, but the Utah and child audits suggest it could be as much as by 1/2.  Germany, Spain and France are all much more restrictive in their COVID counts, which would explain Spain doing as well as it does relative to others despite suffering from multiple waves, much more so than other countries.  Italy is artificially inflated due to the triage they had to do early in the pandemic and lack of testing.  Czechia remember was the poster boy for "doing everything right" and then imploded with multiple winter waves that overwhelmed their hospital systems and had people die due to lack of capacity.


And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?

I know.  Prime covid was impossible to contain….. except for those countries that contained it.   

Or maybe you’ll say that moderate trouble with delta is proof that massive deaths from prime could not have been avoided.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The proper name would be  "inoculation", since the common word "vaccine" originally referred to substances obtained from infected cows.  Latin for "cow" is "vacca".


Moo, you a coo coo


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> The disease is the result of the virus.  You should have said ‘have the virus in you’, not the ‘disease’.


“Trivialities”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?
> 
> I know.  Prime covid was impossible to contain….. except for those countries that contained it.
> 
> Or maybe you’ll say that moderate trouble with delta is proof that massive deaths from prime could not have been avoided.


Funny how you couldn’t be bothered with deaths in the beginning of the Chinese virus.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> And we have one of the top healthcare systems in the world?


Tangential but having one of the top healthcare systems guarantees nothing, esp. when its based on who can afford access.

US heath outcomes suck relative to the healthcare system that we have and, as importantly, the amount of money that is screwed out of us to pay for it.


----------



## Desert Hound

YESTERDAY’S HEROES GET THE CAN:


> For most of spring 2020, rattled New Yorkers trudged out onto their stoops and balconies every night at 7 p.m. sharp to bang their pots and pans and holler appreciation for the first responders—cops, nurses, doctors, EMTs, firefighters—who, unlike them, did not really have the choice to stay home from work while the deadly coronavirus ripped through the five boroughs.
> As of Tuesday, those same New Yorkers, through their representative government, are telling those same essential workers to go look for a new job, unless they have been vaccinated for COVID-19 or have filed for a religious exception from the statewide mandate.


If it’s really still a crisis, why are we letting health workers go?


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Tangential but having one of the top healthcare systems guarantees nothing, esp. when its based on who can afford access.
> 
> US heath outcomes suck relative to the healthcare system that we have and, as importantly, the amount of money that is screwed out of us to pay for it.


Tangential for sure. 

Point being compare our system to anything south of the border. Compare it to E Europe, the Middle East, Africa, etc.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Tangential for sure.
> 
> Point being compare our system to anything south of the border. Compare it to E Europe, the Middle East, Africa, etc.


Sure, compared to poor, underdeveloped countries we're awesome! 

My bar was higher.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?
> 
> I know.  Prime covid was impossible to contain….. except for those countries that contained it.
> 
> Or maybe you’ll say that moderate trouble with delta is proof that massive deaths from prime could not have been avoided.


...or maybe poor health and obesity.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?


Exhibit A for cherry picking and cherry blossoms.  Island nations with official, or effective travel bans from other countries.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?
> 
> I know.  Prime covid was impossible to contain….. except for those countries that contained it.
> 
> Or maybe you’ll say that moderate trouble with delta is proof that massive deaths from prime could not have been avoided.


We don’t really know but all of East Asia seems to have better outcome on prime than Europe and the Americas.  India was doing pretty well too despite lax masking prior to the delta.  And the East Asian response was very different (test and trace in South Korea v poor testing In Japan). There are a variety of theories: masking helped against the prime but not delta, prior exposure to viruses, weight and diet

not really true either South Korea or Japan managed to contain prime. The had a lower burn. And have you seen Singapore against the delt?

In any case the fact that you have to reach to an Asia (no East Asian) country to show your point sort of proves mine…the us (which overcoujts) isn’t exactly the worst outcomes particularly once you account for the nursing home policy is certain blue states.

ps it’s funny your covid prescription for the us is we should have been more Asian.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Sure, compared to poor, underdeveloped countries we're awesome!
> 
> My bar was higher.


I have done biz in Europe for years. Decades actually. I would not go as far as saying they have better health care. It isn't cheap either when you consider that in most of those countries by the time you get to a 50k euro salary you are moving in on a much higher tax rate vs what we have here. Then add in the VAT and go from there. They pay a lot. 

It shows. When I review housing in the various countries for our clients I am always surprised (actually not anymore) of how basic much of the accommodations are and they are middle class. 

Anyway most of the people I know in Europe buy supplemental insurance (what it is called varies by country) so they can avoid the regular health care system. As one of my German partners said...I pay extra so when I go to the doctor I go to a separate area where I dont have to wait in the long queue that everyone with the standard insurance does.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Sure, compared to poor, underdeveloped countries we're awesome!
> 
> My bar was higher.


But you missed my main point. 

The US with less than 5% of the world's population has according to "official" numbers 14.5% of al covid deaths?

That doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Desert Hound said:


> YESTERDAY’S HEROES GET THE CAN:
> 
> 
> If it’s really still a crisis, why are we letting health workers go?


Or letting the unvaccinated cross our borders……


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> And your explanation for why we have 10-100 times as many covid deaths per capita as East Asian countries like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan?
> 
> I know.  Prime covid was impossible to contain….. except for those countries that contained it.
> 
> Or maybe you’ll say that moderate trouble with delta is proof that massive deaths from prime could not have been avoided.


Asians aren’t as fat per capita and thus immuno compromised.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Tangential but having one of the top healthcare systems guarantees nothing, esp. when its based on who can afford access.
> 
> US heath outcomes suck relative to the healthcare system that we have and, as importantly, the amount of money that is screwed out of us to pay for it.


Healthcare and health insurance are not the same thing. But the two terms are used interchangeably.  Health insurance is the only insurance that we carry that is attached to our employment. We retain all other insurances regardless of our place of employment. Life, Auto, umbrella, etc.  Our health insurance also ignores risk pools. If you are heavy, overweight and can’t afford health insurance Congress says that you shouldn’t have to pay more for the lifestyle that you live.  We also combine health care and health insurance together which is what drives the cost up. If we decoupled the two and charged them separately people could afford to pay for one or the other or both because healthcare would not be determined by health insurance which is always for catastrophic events, as is the case with all other insurances.  Can you imagine having auto insurance and auto maintenance as a combined product? Choose a Lower deductible and you might be able to file a claim for a battery change or a tire change.  This is what is happening with the current health care and health insurance scam.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> I have done biz in Europe for years. Decades actually. I would not go as far as saying they have better health care. It isn't cheap either when you consider that in most of those countries by the time you get to a 50k euro salary you are moving in on a much higher tax rate vs what we have here. Then add in the VAT and go from there. They pay a lot.
> 
> It shows. When I review housing in the various countries for our clients I am always surprised (actually not anymore) of how basic much of the accommodations are and they are middle class.
> 
> Anyway most of the people I know in Europe buy supplemental insurance (what it is called varies by country) so they can avoid the regular health care system. As one of my German partners said...I pay extra so when I go to the doctor I go to a separate area where I dont have to wait in the long queue that everyone with the standard insurance does.


The US and European healthcare system is mostly pro-business/industry and anti-market.  Crony capitalism if you prefer.  Shocking right??


----------



## dad4

Grace, you don't need any special explanation for why mask+trace+distance worked for prime but not for Delta.

That is exactly what the models predict.

For any 70-85% effective NPI program: it works great for R<3, but is not quite enough for R>6.  

You only need another explanation if you can't get your brain around the tipping point at R=1 and 1-1/R.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, you don't need any special explanation for why mask+trace+distance worked for prime but not for Delta.
> 
> That is exactly what the models prJapedict.
> 
> For any 70-85% effective NPI program: it works great for R<3, but is not quite enough for R>6.
> 
> You only need another explanation if you can't get your brain around the tipping point at R=1 and 1-1/R.


Again, it depends on what the definition of "work" is.  The only country to deploy a true trace program was South Korea.  Look at what Korea did starting in November.  There's also a clear line where the Delta makes it worse.  









						South Korea COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

South Korea Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Japan did not have a trace program.  It's tracing was a disaster so that's more B.S. that you are spouting without knowing the facts on the ground.  If you are claiming Japan and South Korea did similarly, then you have to discount for trace which was not part of the Japanese equation due to a poor testing program.

That leaves you with masks + distance (or disavowing Japan now despite citing them earlier).  Europe had a high mask compliance and harder lockdowns.  Why didn't it work there? (oh yeah, you said it's because they relaxed).  Well, Los Angeles had indoor and outdoor with over 98% compliance and closed indoor dining....why didn't it work there?  Oh yeah, you said it was because of density....but Seoul, Tokyo and Singapore are also equally dense.

So the answer isn't "tracing".  The answer also can't just be 100% "masks".  And the answer can't just be well Los Angeles is different because of density.  It has to be something else.


----------



## Grace T.

Errr....know this is just one case and just an anecdote, but if true it's still very bad news for the herd immunity crowd if even natural immunity + vaccine immunity supercharge won't do it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443754196910620674


----------



## Grace T.

The costs of masks isn't zero.  Walking the dog through our local park this morning and I had to pull him away from 4 face masks.  The great irony is the reusable washable cloth masks that are environmentally friend in any case are the worst ones.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443661486543577088


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> I have done biz in Europe for years. Decades actually. I would not go as far as saying they have better health care. It isn't cheap either when you consider that in most of those countries by the time you get to a 50k euro salary you are moving in on a much higher tax rate vs what we have here. Then add in the VAT and go from there. They pay a lot.
> 
> It shows. When I review housing in the various countries for our clients I am always surprised (actually not anymore) of how basic much of the accommodations are and they are middle class.
> 
> Anyway most of the people I know in Europe buy supplemental insurance (what it is called varies by country) so they can avoid the regular health care system. As one of my German partners said...I pay extra so when I go to the doctor I go to a separate area where I don't have to wait in the long queue that everyone with the standard insurance does.


I lived in the UK for many years and have interacted with Europeans my entire career. When I lived in the UK, the company paid for supplemental (BUPA) health insurance for everyone above a certain level. It cost them $600 a year - I know as that was my taxable benefit. I only know of 1 person who ever used it. Everyone else used the NHS. 

There is certainly a higher direct tax burden. If you take what we pay for health insurance here and call it a "tax", then add all the deductibles you pay on top and eliminate any max coverage (for dental for example) and suddenly the tax burden doesn't look as high.

All that aside, my point was that we pay more than double on health insurance than the next country, per person, for worse results. The highest cause of bankruptcy is medical expenses I believe. The price gouging of US consumers by the health industry is disgusting in this country. Having one of the best health care systems in the world, which the US has, is not a lot of good to tens of millions of Americans who can't access it.

Agree on the ratio of population to deaths BTW, doesn't make sense.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> . The highest cause of bankruptcy is medical expenses I believe.


My friend Megan has written a lot on this.  It's not just the medical expenses that cause the bankruptcy.  It's the unemployment caused by the inability to work.  The United States simply isn't as generous in its income safety net as many other countries.  But then we don't want to be paying attorneys and doctors hundreds of thousand of dollars from hard earning middle class Americans when they can't work.





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




p.s.  I didn't a 9 month stint in the UK working on a project.  Non of the lawyers there would go to the NHS hospital if they could avoid it.  They went to their private wards (instead of the public crowded ones without a private room).  But they wouldn't dip into their private insurance for routine care.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, it depends on what the definition of "work" is.  The only country to deploy a true trace program was South Korea.  Look at what Korea did starting in November.  There's also a clear line where the Delta makes it worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> South Korea Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japan did not have a trace program.  It's tracing was a disaster so that's more B.S. that you are spouting without knowing the facts on the ground.  If you are claiming Japan and South Korea did similarly, then you have to discount for trace which was not part of the Japanese equation due to a poor testing program.
> 
> That leaves you with masks + distance (or disavowing Japan now despite citing them earlier).  Europe had a high mask compliance and harder lockdowns.  Why didn't it work there? (oh yeah, you said it's because they relaxed).  Well, Los Angeles had indoor and outdoor with over 98% compliance and closed indoor dining....why didn't it work there?  Oh yeah, you said it was because of density....but Seoul, Tokyo and Singapore are also equally dense.
> 
> So the answer isn't "tracing".  The answer also can't just be 100% "masks".  And the answer can't just be well Los Angeles is different because of density.  It has to be something else.


self reported compliance means nothing, even if it is 98%.

Look back to the Nigeria study on mask use. (referenced in the bangladesh study).  Self reported mask use was 90%.  But, if you actually went to Lagos and looked at people, 10% had masks on.

We all wash our hands with soap, too.  Just ask us.  But don’t ask the guy who changes the soap dispenser.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> self reported compliance means nothing, even if it is 98%.
> 
> Look back to the Nigeria study on mask use. (referenced in the bangladesh study).  Self reported mask use was 90%.  But, if you actually went to Lagos and looked at people, 10% had masks on.
> 
> We all wash our hands with soap, too.  Just ask us.  But don’t ask the guy who changes the soap dispenser.


It’s always something with you. You couldn’t go into a supermarket, medical building or hair salon without being masked in Los Angeles much less a bus train or plane.  The supermarkets even have security guards at the entrances enforcing it.  I’m frankly surprised it’s as low as all that. In all that time I never saw someone over 6 breaking the mask mandate that wasn’t kicked out of the location and I only ever saw two people kicked out. My kid even got screamed at once in the supermarket for not standing behind some blue tape. 

where the issues are is where mask mandates don’t do very much good:  in the home, meeting friends, the underground hair salons, indoor dining and bars, people cheating like on job sites with noses peaking out. Now you can argue Asians wouldn’t do such things. I don’t know if that’s true or note (it’s definitely not true with Indians though which means you have an India problem with your theory pre delta)…but people should be more Asian is not a policy prescription.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It’s always something with you. You couldn’t go into a supermarket, medical building or hair salon without being masked in Los Angeles much less a bus train or plane.  The supermarkets even have security guards at the entrances enforcing it.  I’m frankly surprised it’s as low as all that. In all that time I never saw someone over 6 breaking the mask mandate that wasn’t kicked out of the location and I only ever saw two people kicked out. My kid even got screamed at once in the supermarket for not standing behind some blue tape.
> 
> where the issues are is where mask mandates don’t do very much good:  in the home, meeting friends, the underground hair salons, indoor dining and bars, people cheating like on job sites with noses peaking out. Now you can argue Asians wouldn’t do such things. I don’t know if that’s true or note (it’s definitely not true with Indians though which means you have an India problem with your theory pre delta)…but people should be more Asian is not a policy prescription.


We don’t have to guess.  There are people who study things like that.  When people in Tokyo got together in summer 2020, did they meet a restaurants or outside?  How is that different from people in LA or Cairo?

The trouble is, what do you do if it turns out that people in Seoul and Tokyo put on masks and went outside when meeting friends?   Do you actually admit that there is a cultural difference that may have resulted in different rates of transmission?  Or do you stick to your guns and ignore the evidence because it is inconvenient?

All you can say is “people in LA wore masks a lot, relative to what Grace would expect.”.  That is different from saying “Camera images show hat mask usage in LA was similar to mask usage in Tokyo.”.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We don’t have to guess.  There are people who study things like that.  When people in Tokyo got together in summer 2020, did they meet a restaurants or outside?  How is that different from people in LA or Cairo?
> 
> The trouble is, what do you do if it turns out that people in Seoul and Tokyo put on masks and went outside when meeting friends?   Do you actually admit that there is a cultural difference that may have resulted in different rates of transmission?  Or do you stick to your guns and ignore the evidence because it is inconvenient?
> 
> All you can say is “people in LA wore masks a lot, relative to what Grace would expect.”.  That is different from saying “Camera images show hat mask usage in LA was similar to mask usage in Tokyo.”.


Again be more asian is not a policy prescription. There is no government lever that can be pushed to recreate that short of australia. If that’s what you are down to…that Asians wore mask better (better than a heavily blue city with strict compliance in business settings) because of cultural differences…then you are preaching again instead of doing policy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again be more asian is not a policy prescription. There is no government lever that can be pushed to recreate that short of australia. If that’s what you are down to…that Asians wore mask better (better than a heavily blue city with strict compliance in business settings) because of cultural differences…then you are preaching again instead of doing policy.


It wasn’t a policy prescription.  It was a description of why some wealthy countries did well and some wealthy countries did poorly.

You seem really proud of LA having compliance in business settings.  Apparently, wearing a mask at Von’s to buy beer for the indoor party at home was not sufficient.  You can try to learn from that, or you can make up some story about the gospel of being asian.

Pocky?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It wasn’t a policy prescription.  It was a description of why some wealthy countries did well and some wealthy countries did poorly.
> 
> You seem really proud of LA having compliance in business settings.  Apparently, wearing a mask at Von’s to buy beer for the indoor party at home was not sufficient.  You can try to learn from that, or you can make up some story about the gospel of being asian.
> 
> Pocky?


Again I’m evaluating policy given the people we have, you are doing religion: “you can try and learn from that”. You get the culture and country you have…not the one you want…if you feel so strongly about it there is a remedy…move to Japan…added benefit they have good women’s soccer for your dd.   Just also know none of those countries were able to “control” coronavirus…in the end the virus won everywhere…you are now down to arguing by how much.

Ps you know I’m not proud of la…pretty much all of its measures were for naught as despite them all it still had one of the worst performances in the world and contributed to dragging down the us average.  It is the Czechia of the Us.


----------



## crush

*Red October* is finally here.  My old friend from church out in Temecula posted on Fake Book last might that his wife just got the boot from saying no to the jab.  She was frontline worker who took a chance with her life early on to help others is now being told she is disobedient and not a team player and is canned.  24 years at the same place.  My pal is a retired Marine and did many tours risking his life for us over there and this is the thanks this family gets.  This is real folks and it makes sense now what these liars have been up to.  TGIFF!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again I’m evaluating policy given the people we have, you are doing religion: “you can try and learn from that”. You get the culture and country you have…not the one you want…if you feel so strongly about it there is a remedy…move to Japan…added benefit they have good women’s soccer for your dd.   Just also know none of those countries were able to “control” coronavirus…in the end the virus won everywhere…you are now down to arguing by how much.
> 
> Ps you know I’m not proud of la…pretty much all of its measures were for naught as despite them all it still had one of the worst performances in the world and contributed to dragging down the us average.  It is the Czechia of the Us.


You say that no country was able to keep covid in check.  

Then we talk about countries like Japan (1/13 as many deaths per capita) and Singapore (1/150 as many deaths per capita.)

Are you truly incapable of connecting the two thoughts?   You are denying the existence of the exact thing you are discussing.

Enjoy some squid chips.  They’re pretty good.  Don’t forget to eat them outside and put your mask on when you’re done.


----------



## watfly

It dawned on me that trying to claim why some countries did better with Covid is like trying to claim why some countries have better men's national soccer teams.  The US would have a better soccer results if it only followed the development model of __________(insert successful soccer country here).  The reality with both Covid and Soccer is that culture has a tremendous influence on the results of both.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You say that no country was able to keep covid in check.
> 
> Then we talk about countries like Japan (1/13 as many deaths per capita) and Singapore (1/150 as many deaths per capita.)
> 
> Are you truly incapable of connecting the two thoughts?   You are denying the existence of the exact thing you are discussing.
> 
> Enjoy some squid chips.  They’re pretty good.  Don’t forget to eat them outside and put your mask on when you’re done.


...for every mask study you have there are 10x more examples of politicians, celebs, elites etc. not practicing what they preach and mandate... hell, to this day the damn White House isn't 100% vaxxed...not to mention, Hollywood award shows back to full strength maskless... broadcasting in our face as they hug, kiss and bloviate as usual...while my kids sit in class all day masked.

Yet there you are, a compliant little sheep lecturing others and demanding others live your cowardly lifestyle. You may be smart, but you lack the wisdom to know you are being played!

Oh, BTW...you can take my mask...roll it up, bend over, insert, and light it up.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Delta is on its way out rather quickly in the US. Cases are over 1/3 lower than the peak (in about a month).  A quick review of CDC cases shows AK, ID, ME, MI, NH, and ND are the only states that haven't reached their apparent peak. Many are dropping precipitously. Given the previous waves, I'd guess we'd be down to less than a 1/3 of peak by Halloween.

I'm optimistic given that delta was a smaller wave, had a higher R, a lower rate of death, and our personal interactions as a country were much higher than last year. I'd also guess that cases of delta are significantly under-reported since the symptoms are often mild in children and there is no incentive for parents to report any illness.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Delta is on its way out rather quickly in the US. Cases are over 1/3 lower than the peak (in about a month).  A quick review of CDC cases shows AK, ID, ME, MI, NH, and ND are the only states that haven't reached their apparent peak. Many are dropping precipitously. Given the previous waves, I'd guess we'd be down to less than a 1/3 of peak by Halloween.
> 
> I'm optimistic given that delta was a smaller wave, had a higher R, a lower rate of death, and our personal interactions as a country were much higher than last year. I'd also guess that cases of delta are significantly under-reported since the symptoms are often mild in children and there is no incentive for parents to report any illness.


And not per usual...long after the delta peaked here in the US (around Aug 27 was the peak), cities, etc are now tightening things up (see LA/LA County as one example). They are trying to fight something that is already on the way out. 

Typical gov and typical gov response.


----------



## Desert Hound

And as a further thought...

These mandates...vaxx passports, masking in bars, etc do nothing. 

The people getting sick and dying are still those who are old and have serious health issues. That group makes up more than 80% of all deaths. The other 20%? Again generally speaking people who already have serious health issues. 

These people generally speaking are not the ones hanging out in schools, playing soccer, going out for drinks at the bar, etc. And yet these places are the ones being told...make sure people mask up or have proof of vaxx to enter. 

Those efforts wont make any noticeable difference on what the virus does.


----------



## Desert Hound

_News in America used to be fun to talk about, fun to joke about, interesting to think about. Now it’s an interminable bummer, because the press business has taken on characteristics of that other institution where talking, joking, and thinking aren’t allowed: church. We have two denominations, both as fact-averse as real churches, as is shown in polls about, say, pandemic attitudes, where Americans across the board consistently show they know less than they think.

Surveys found a third of Republicans think the asymptomatic don’t transmit Covid-19, or that the disease kills fewer people than the flu or car crashes. But Democrats also test out atrociously, with 41% thinking Covid-19 patients end up hospitalized over half the time — the real number is 1%-5% — while also wildly overestimating dangers to children, the percentage of Covid deaths under the age of 65, the efficacy of masks, and other issues.

---

America is a now a nation of warring media faiths, with Fox/OAN/Newsmax preaching a heretic Savanarola-style gospel of corrupt elites lying about everything from election results to vaccine efficacy, while the rival Church of the Mainstream, which describes itself as the (literally) true faith and exclusive arbiter of such things as “fact” and “science,” preaches a coming fascist apocalypse. Its pundits openly rejoice in Covid-19 as an instrument of vengeance against “denialism” and those who don’t “believe science,” and it’s not an accident that people who watch them too much do things like wear masks alone in cars.









						The News is America's New Religion, and We're in a Religious War
					

When political narrative replaces faith, truth becomes heresy




					taibbi.substack.com
				



_


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> And not per usual...long after the delta peaked here in the US (around Aug 27 was the peak), cities, etc are now tightening things up (see LA/LA County as one example). They are trying to fight something that is already on the way out.
> 
> Typical gov and typical gov response.


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You say that no country was able to keep covid in check.
> 
> Then we talk about countries like Japan (1/13 as many deaths per capita) and Singapore (1/150 as many deaths per capita.)
> 
> Are you truly incapable of connecting the two thoughts?   You are denying the existence of the exact thing you are discussing.
> 
> Enjoy some squid chips.  They’re pretty good.  Don’t forget to eat them outside and put your mask on when you’re done.



"keep covid in check".  Again:

1. If "keep covid in check" means reducing the number of deaths per capita, how far you've fallen.  Remember when everyone was advocating for COVID zero?  So all we are arguing now is a matter of degrees.
2. Then we have to look at "well could the US have done better".  Your argument now amounts to that people should have become Asian.   That's not something that can be replicated.  That's not policy.  You are doing religion again.
3. You argument neglects that there may be other factors at play than even just masks (such as prior exposures or you know just Asians being better about not going out sick or the fact they may not be as touchy feely as the rest of the world).

It's funny your blinders have taken you to this.  You are arguing about things which were out of control now from the leadership and couldn't have been changed.  Let alone that you are back to masks outsides.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Grace, you don't need any special explanation for why mask+trace+distance worked for prime but not for Delta.
> 
> That is exactly what the models predict.
> 
> For any 70-85% effective NPI program: it works great for R<3, but is not quite enough for R>6.
> 
> You only need another explanation if you can't get your brain around the tipping point at R=1 and 1-1/R.


Nonsense


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You say that no country was able to keep covid in check.
> 
> Then we talk about countries like Japan (1/13 as many deaths per capita) and Singapore (1/150 as many deaths per capita.)
> 
> Are you truly incapable of connecting the two thoughts?   You are denying the existence of the exact thing you are discussing.
> 
> Enjoy some squid chips.  They’re pretty good.  Don’t forget to eat them outside and put your mask on when you’re done.


Healthy immune systems make for low covid deaths.  Just like in the U.S.  You’re Still ignoring those facts.


----------



## watfly

Evolution of our Covid policy:

1) Do as we say

2) Shut up, and do as we say

3) Shut up, and do as we say, or be fired

And despite doing what they say and compliance from the vast majority, Covid continues to do its own thing.  "Just stay at home to flatten the curve", "just wear a mask", "just get a vaccine and you won't have to wear mask"


----------



## Grace T.

Having had an RSV infection (which is rarely reported in adults...usually striking hard only the very young and very old) that led to long RSV (just beginning to get back to normal now 3 months later) I can attest immunity debt is a thing.....



			CHOP’s beds are overflowing, but not because of COVID-19


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Having had an RSV infection (which is rarely reported in adults...usually striking hard only the very young and very old) that led to long RSV (just beginning to get back to normal now 3 months later) I can attest immunity debt is a thing.....
> 
> 
> 
> CHOP’s beds are overflowing, but not because of COVID-19


More unintended consequences of the lockdowns that did nothing to stop the spread of the virus.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Desert Hound said:


> And as a further thought...
> 
> These mandates...vaxx passports, masking in bars, etc do nothing.
> 
> The people getting sick and dying are still those who are old and have serious health issues. That group makes up more than 80% of all deaths. The other 20%? Again generally speaking people who already have serious health issues.
> 
> These people generally speaking are not the ones hanging out in schools, playing soccer, going out for drinks at the bar, etc. And yet these places are the ones being told...make sure people mask up or have proof of vaxx to enter.
> 
> Those efforts wont make any noticeable difference on what the virus does.


And within that age group are most of the politicians who are making these mandates.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> More unintended predictable consequences of the lockdowns that did nothing to stop the spread of the virus.


Fixed it for you.

Shortly after the beginning of the pandemic I posted this graphic which I received from my buddy who is the Medical Director for a large healthcare provider.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Evolution of our Covid policy:
> 
> 1) Do as we say
> 
> 2) Shut up, and do as we say
> 
> 3) Shut up, and do as we say, or be fired
> 
> And despite doing what they say and compliance from the vast majority, Covid continues to do its own thing.  "Just stay at home to flatten the curve", "just wear a mask", "just get a vaccine and you won't have to wear mask"


“Lets see if we can flatten the curve of a 55 million year old virus”


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...for every mask study you have there are 10x more examples of politicians, celebs, elites etc. not practicing what they preach and mandate... hell, to this day the damn White House isn't 100% vaxxed...not to mention, Hollywood award shows back to full strength maskless... broadcasting in our face as they hug, kiss and bloviate as usual...while my kids sit in class all day masked.
> 
> Yet there you are, a compliant little sheep lecturing others and demanding others live your cowardly lifestyle. You may be smart, but you lack the wisdom to know you are being played!
> 
> Oh, BTW...you can take my mask...roll it up, bend over, insert, and light it up.


So, your point is that masks work but politicians and celebrities are a bunch of hypocrites?    Ok.  I agree completely with both points.

I do not agree that, because Obama held a covid themed birthday party, therefore I should increase the risk to my neighbors.  That one seems a bit illogical.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Shortly after the beginning of the pandemic I posted this graphic which I received from my buddy who is the Medical Director for a large healthcare provider.
> 
> View attachment 11779


anti-immune system zealots ignore the fact that COVID has clearly shown that it is extremely age discriminate.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I do not agree that, because Obama held a covid themed birthday party, therefore I should increase the risk to my neighbors. That one seems a bit illogical.


What is illogical is the following:

You are vaxxed. 
Any one not vaxxed has made that choice. 

So it is illogical to run around and be worried about people who have decided not to be vaxxed. 

Move on and live life.


----------



## Grace T.

Those of you who had mandates after the recall officially win the pool.   Reportedly will apply to all K-12 (they are anticipating approval of the 5-11s) and kicks in at the beginning of 2022.  Applies to private, public, religious schools as well.



			https://www.fresnobee.com/news/california/article254681722.html


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Those of you who had mandates after the recall officially win the pool.   Reportedly will apply to all K-12 (they are anticipating approval of the 5-11s) and kicks in at the beginning of 2022.  Applies to private, public, religious schools as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fresnobee.com/news/california/article254681722.html


So sciency.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Those of you who had mandates after the recall officially win the pool.   Reportedly will apply to all K-12 (they are anticipating approval of the 5-11s) and kicks in at the beginning of 2022.  Applies to private, public, religious schools as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fresnobee.com/news/california/article254681722.html


It was such a sure thing Vegas probably didn't even put odds on it.  Although, it took him longer than I expected.  I was betting on the week after the election not a couple weeks after.  But good for him for waiting until we were in a steep decline in cases, before implementing new mandates.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It was such a sure thing Vegas probably didn't even put odds on it.  Although, it took him longer than I expected.  I was betting on the week after the election not a couple weeks after.  But good for him for waiting until we were in a steep decline in cases, before implementing new mandates.


If you have been doing whatever you like already, it makes no sense.  

Among those who have been delaying indoor events for 18 months, this will quite popular.   Right up there with employer mandates, which are also popular in California.

They want their normal back, and vaccine mandates are a way to get it.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you have been doing whatever you like already, it makes no sense.
> 
> Among those who have been delaying indoor events for 18 months, this will quite popular.   Right up there with employer mandates, which are also popular in California.
> 
> They want their normal back, and vaccine mandates are a way to get it.


If its so popular then why didn't Newsom do it in August when cases were so high and climbing instead of when they've dropped significantly and are still dropping?  You must believe he has "blood on his hands" for not doing it sooner.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> If its so popular then why didn't Newsom do it in August when cases were so high and climbing instead of when they've dropped significantly and are still dropping?  You must believe he has "blood on his hands" for not doing it sooner.


Why would I blame Newsom?   He’s done a pretty good job.  

Now, would I have supported a vaccine mandate back in August?  Sure.  I also support it now.  I’ll support it next month, too.  

Because I’m tired of cancelling birthday parties.  The unmasked, unvaccinated can start to pull their own weight for once.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> If you have been doing whatever you like already, it makes no sense.
> 
> Among those who have been delaying indoor events for 18 months, this will quite popular.   Right up there with employer mandates, which are also popular in California.
> 
> They want their normal back, and vaccine mandates are a way to get it.


How is segregating a population and showing having to show papers in order to live life, getting back to normal?


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> So sciency.


What's even more Science TM is that teachers yet mandated.


----------



## Grace T.

How convenient.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444006424116400177


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Why would I blame Newsom?   He’s done a pretty good job.
> 
> Now, would I have supported a vaccine mandate back in August?  Sure.  I also support it now.  I’ll support it next month, too.
> 
> Because I’m tired of cancelling birthday parties.  The unmasked, unvaccinated can start to pull their own weight for once.


Its just proof that its primarily political.  You have no one else to blame for cancelling birthday parties other than yourself.  You can't blame shift that to anyone else.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> How is segregating a population and showing having to show papers in order to live life, getting back to normal?


Because, if the unvaccinated stop spreading disease in bars, gyms, and restaurants, then cases will decline enough that my kid can have a sleepover.

For that, I don’t mind showing my vaccine card at a restaurant.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Because, if the unvaccinated stop spreading disease in bars, gyms, and restaurants, then cases will decline enough that my kid can have a sleepover.
> 
> For that, I don’t mind showing my vaccine card at a restaurant.


Wow your kid hasn't had a sleepover since this began and had cancelled birthday parties?  After the N95 in the supermarket thing I guess I shouldn't really be shocked.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Its just proof that its primarily political.  You have no one else to blame for cancelling birthday parties other than yourself.  You can't blame shift that to anyone else.


When one third of the population refused to follow the rules, I had two choices.

I could help spread covid, knowing that I was increasing cases, deaths, and hospitalizations.  Or I could follow the rules, knowing that it was a drop in the bucket.

Mostly, I chose to follow the rules to try to help.  But that doesn’t stop me from being mad at the assholes who never lifted a finger to help the entire time.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Because, if the unvaccinated stop spreading disease in bars, gyms, and restaurants, then cases will decline enough that my kid can have a sleepover.
> 
> For that, I don’t mind showing my vaccine card at a restaurant.


Because… you and your family friends are vaccinated, so you can’t have their child over for a sleepover because there are unvaccinated people in the community?

Ok? Your family your choice.  

Just don’t blame the lack of childhood sleepovers on anyone but yourself at this point.

Sure, opt not to invite the anti-vaccine family over, that makes sense from a certain perspective…


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> When one third of the population refused to follow the rules, I had two choices.
> 
> I could help spread covid, knowing that I was increasing cases, deaths, and hospitalizations.  Or I could follow the rules, knowing that it was a drop in the bucket.
> 
> Mostly, I chose to follow the rules to try to help.  But that doesn’t stop me from being mad at the assholes who never lifted a finger to help the entire time.


What "rules"?  My kid is off to Catalina next week to sleepover with other vaxxed or confirmed natural immunity students on a school trip.

If you choose to cancel your kids activities after vaxx was available, that's on you.  Look at the mirror for who you have to blame.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow your kid hasn't had a sleepover since this began and had cancelled birthday parties?  After the N95 in the supermarket thing I guess I shouldn't really be shocked.


Most kids in the class have cancelled birthday parties, too.  Wasn’t just me.  We’ve had about 1/4 as many as normal, all outside.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Most kids in the class have cancelled birthday parties, too.  Wasn’t just me.  We’ve had about 1/4 as many as normal, all outside.


I wouldn’t invite the judgmental, fully vaccinated family to my children’s parties either.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Most kids in the class have cancelled birthday parties, too.  Wasn’t just me.  We’ve had about 1/4 as many as normal, all outside.


Mine had his.  Again, fully vaxxed or naturally immune kids.  Outdoors.  Small gathering post vaxx.  If you are cancelling, again that's on you.

But people who have had it once + double vaxxed are getting it apparently, so if that holds up, you are never going to be fully safe,....


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Most kids in the class have cancelled birthday parties, too.  Wasn’t just me.  We’ve had about 1/4 as many as normal, all outside.


Where do you live, Chicken Little Estates?  Seriously, its your choice but you and your friends are living in some parallel universe from the rest of us.

When you say rules, you're speaking of your rules.  There is no vaccination rule or global mask rule, and certainly no prohibition on kid's birthday parties.  Again adults putting their fears and burdens on the kids.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> What "rules"?  My kid is off to Catalina next week to sleepover with other vaxxed or confirmed natural immunity students on a school trip.
> 
> If you choose to cancel your kids activities after vaxx was available, that's on you.  Look at the mirror for who you have to blame.


My kid is going to Catalina the week after.  They have a big group going because they're the only school in the camp that week, well that and parents that don't put their fears and burdens on kids.  They were supposed to do it last year but Covid.  So he gets DC/NY trip in same year.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Because, if the unvaccinated stop spreading disease in bars, gyms, and restaurants, then cases will decline enough that my kid can have a sleepover.
> 
> For that, I don’t mind showing my vaccine card at a restaurant.


Again….your choice to make your kid suffer over something that will have little to no affect on them what so ever.  Did you avoid birthday parties during the normal flu season?   

I don’t understand how people feel towards those who choose not to be vaccinated.  Your vaccine works for you, not them.  

We know you’d rather us behave like Australia.   You’re in favor of the Totalitarian state because you never suffered financially from the impact of the closures and mandates like most of the population.

So it’s easy for you to peach from your safe space.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Mostly, I chose to follow the rules to try to help.  But that doesn’t stop me from being mad at the assholes who never lifted a finger to help the entire time.


Guess what "asshole"... you can still catch & spread...along with socially and emotionally damaging your kids. Brilliant!


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Where do you live, Chicken Little Estates?  Seriously, its your choice but you and your friends are living in some parallel universe from the rest of us.
> 
> When you say rules, you're speaking of your rules.  There is no vaccination rule or global mask rule, and certainly no prohibition on kid's birthday parties.  Again adults putting their fears and burdens on the kids.


Santa Clara County.

Our death rate from covid is less than 1/4 the national average.   Adult first shot vax rate nearing 90%.  You still see people on hiking trails wearing masks.  And the people going the other way put theirs on as they pass.  We had a month or two where stores didn’t require masks.  People wore them anyway.

So, in some ways, it is a parallel universe.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Santa Clara County.
> 
> Our death rate from covid is less than 1/4 the national average.   Adult first shot vax rate nearing 90%.  You still see people on hiking trails wearing masks.  And the people going the other way put theirs on as they pass.  We had a month or two where stores didn’t require masks.  People wore them anyway.
> 
> So, in some ways, it is a parallel universe.


Well our drinking water comes out of the Colorado River so we're pretty risk tolerant in San Diego.


----------



## what-happened

Kicker4Life said:


> Again….your choice to make your kid suffer over something that will have little to no affect on them what so ever.  Did you avoid birthday parties during the normal flu season?
> 
> I don’t understand how people feel towards those who choose not to be vaccinated.  Your vaccine works for you, not them.
> 
> We know you’d rather us behave like Australia.   You’re in favor of the Totalitarian state because you never *suffered financially from the impact of the closures and mandates like most of the population.*
> 
> So it’s easy for you to peach from your safe space.


An emerging issue is the continued finacial burden of those with breakthrough cases.. Those like DAD that can hang from home can be sanctimonious.

Vaccines were sold as the silver freedom bullet, back to normal, back to work.  Companies/small businesses are still sending employees home and mandating 10-14 day quanrantines, many without pay.  Unfortunately life for most isn't as neat and tidy as DAD portrays or lives.  Imagine having to forgoe Birthday Parties and sleepovers...how brave.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Those of you who had mandates after the recall officially win the pool.   Reportedly will apply to all K-12 (they are anticipating approval of the 5-11s) and kicks in at the beginning of 2022.  Applies to private, public, religious schools as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fresnobee.com/news/california/article254681722.html


But if you read the article:

"By contrast, Newsom said his administration will allow students to decline a COVID-19 vaccine because of personal beliefs."

Nothing burger...


----------



## Grace T.

__





						Study suggests neutralising antibodies persist in most individuals for at least a year after SARS-CoV-2 infection
					

Findings from a study published in the European Journal of Immunology showed that spike immunoglobulin G (S-IgG) antibodies and neutralising antibodies (NAb) persisted in most individuals for at least a year following severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection. In the...




					dgalerts.docguide.com
				




More on natural immunity persisting at least a year after infection.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> But if you read the article:
> 
> "By contrast, Newsom said his administration will allow students to decline a COVID-19 vaccine because of personal beliefs."
> 
> Nothing burger...


Actually let me post the full quote:

"Newsom’s directive will add the COVID-19 vaccine to the California Department of Public Health’s list of required shots for school kids attending classes in person, which already include those that prevent measles, mumps and rubella, chicken pox and polio. Students cannot city personal or religious beliefs to decline those vaccines under a 2017 law.

By contrast, Newsom said his administration will allow students to decline a COVID-19 vaccine because of personal beliefs."

This seems like a great compromise.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> then cases will decline enough that my kid can have a sleepover.


You kid can have a sleepover any time. 

70 million people 17 and under 450 or so deaths. 

You are the math guy. Tell me if there is any real risk to your kids at sleepovers or birthday parties...you know the ones right now you are scared to allow? 

Based on the above numbers how on earth do you justify not letting kids do stuff when they have absolutely zero risk?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> But if you read the article:
> 
> "By contrast, Newsom said his administration will allow students to decline a COVID-19 vaccine because of personal beliefs."
> 
> Nothing burger...


I'm assuming that's the religious exception, which is narrow. 

LAUSD sports/extracurricular mandate kicks in next week.  We'll get our first taste of how this is going to go.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Santa Clara County.
> 
> Our death rate from covid is less than 1/4 the national average.   Adult first shot vax rate nearing 90%.  You still see people on hiking trails wearing masks.  And the people going the other way put theirs on as they pass.  We had a month or two where stores didn’t require masks.  People wore them anyway.
> 
> So, in some ways, it is a parallel universe.


You live in one of the healthiest counties in the country, great access to health care, ranking at the top of nearly every positive public health indicator imaginable. Culturally you will do what you are told.  It's not suprising that outcomes in the county are so great.  This isn' a dig, it's your reality.  It's not most people's reality.

Your county also will see an increase in breakthrough infections, it's inevitable.  The increases in breakthrough infections (at least in AZ) are profound.  No doubt that vaccines work but will behaviours change over time or will they stay the same amongst the most compliant.  People are still going to get sick.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I'm assuming that's the religious exception, which is narrow.
> 
> LAUSD sports/extracurricular mandate kicks in next week.  We'll get our first taste of how this is going to go.


I mean wouldn't they have said "religious belief" like they did in the sentence right before that one? I'd like to get that verified before jumping to any conclusions. 

I think this is a great approach though.  Kids who are vaccinated go through less at school when a close contact is discovered.  That alone is worth getting the youngers vaccinated.   People who are willing to deal with quarantine (modified or full) then fine...do that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Shortly after the beginning of the pandemic I posted this graphic which I received from my buddy who is the Medical Director for a large healthcare provider.
> 
> View attachment 11779


anti-immune system zealots ignore the fact that COVID has clearly shown that it is extremely age discriminate.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> You live in one of the healthiest counties in the country, great access to health care, ranking at the top of nearly every positive public health indicator imaginable. Culturally you will do what you are told.  It's not suprising that outcomes in the county are so great.  This isn' a dig, it's your reality.  It's not most people's reality.
> 
> Your county also will see an increase in breakthrough infections, it's inevitable.  The increases in breakthrough infections (at least in AZ) are profound.  No doubt that vaccines work but will behaviours change over time or will they stay the same amongst the most compliant.  People are still going to get sick.


Shocking isn’t it?  The evolutionary process continues.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I mean wouldn't they have said "religious belief" like they did in the sentence right before that one? I'd like to get that verified before jumping to any conclusions.
> 
> I think this is a great approach though.  Kids who are vaccinated go through less at school when a close contact is discovered.  That alone is worth getting the youngers vaccinated.   People who are willing to deal with quarantine (modified or full) then fine...do that.


They tend to use personal belief to expand those without an organized religion due to recent court rulings on the subject.  But you are right, we don't know how large the personal belief exemption is.  I don't, however, think it will be "I voted for Donald Trump and think vaccines are a hoax" will be good enough. It generally needs to be documented.

p.s. another devil in the details: the Feinstein natural immunity to the airline ban exception only recognizes natural immunity for 3 months in its current form....which is silly since the emerging consensus is that natural immunity is at least as robust and long as vaccine immunity.


----------



## what-happened

Bruddah IZ said:


> Shocking isn’t it?  The evolutionary process continues.


Pretty soon it will be the pandemic of the "unboostered".  Then what.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> An emerging issue is the continued finacial burden of those with breakthrough cases.. Those like DAD that can hang from home can be sanctimonious.
> 
> Vaccines were sold as the silver freedom bullet, back to normal, back to work.  Companies/small businesses are still sending employees home and mandating 10-14 day quanrantines, many without pay.  Unfortunately life for most isn't as neat and tidy as DAD portrays or lives.  Imagine having to forgoe Birthday Parties and sleepovers...how brave.


We have the same mandatory quarantines, also often without pay.

They just kick in less often because we have fewer cases.   Part of the parallel universe thing.


----------



## Desert Hound

People walking on trails wearing masks. 

Why exactly? 

I know a lot of people are not terribly bright. And when I see them walking outside with a mask, it lets the rest of us know the elevator does not go to the top.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> We have the same mandatory quarantines, also often without pay.
> 
> They just kick in less often because we have fewer cases.   Part of the parallel universe thing.


Funny how immune systems work to help limp vax efficacy along.


----------



## Desert Hound

_WE SHOULD START CALLING THEM “JIM CROVID” LAWS: First Workers, Now Blacks: Democrats’ Betrayals For Big Business Are Piling Up, But Can Republicans Seize It? “*Now roughly 72 percent of black New York City residents aged 18-44 are banned — banned — from entering dining establishments.”*_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> People walking on trails wearing masks.
> 
> Why exactly?
> 
> I know a lot of people are not terribly bright. And when I see them walking outside with a mask, it lets the rest of us know the elevator does not go to the top.


Just like the lone driver in the Tesla.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> People walking on trails wearing masks.
> 
> Why exactly?
> 
> I know a lot of people are not terribly bright. And when I see them walking outside with a mask, it lets the rest of us know the elevator does not go to the top.


Your state has 2750 covid deaths per million residents.  My county has about 970.

I agree that some people are having trouble understanding how respiratory disease spreads.  But maybe you should be looking a little closer to home to figure it out.  

You know, maybe get your own house in order before you start telling the rest of us how it’s done.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your state has 2750 covid deaths per million residents.  My county has about 970.
> 
> I agree that some people are having trouble understanding how respiratory disease spreads.  But maybe you should be looking a little closer to home to figure it out.
> 
> You know, maybe get your own house in order before you start telling the rest of us how it’s done.


If y'all are cancelling kids birthday parties, hiking with mask outdoors, going in N95s to supermarkets and not letting your kids go to sleepovers, not sure you guys should be in a position to lecture anyone either.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If y'all are cancelling kids birthday parties, hiking with mask outdoors, going in N95s to supermarkets and not letting your kids go to sleepovers, not sure you guys should be in a position to lecture anyone either.


It’s not about the lecture.  It’s about being able to look around and take in information from the world around you.

Singapore’s plan worked.  Santa Clara’s plan sort of worked.   Alabama’s plan did not work.

So, if everyone in Singapore is wearing an N95 to the market, and they have very low hospitalizations and deaths, then maybe they know something you don’t.

More dried seaweed?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Your state has 2750 covid deaths per million residents.  My county has about 970.
> 
> I agree that some people are having trouble understanding how respiratory disease spreads.  But maybe you should be looking a little closer to home to figure it out.
> 
> You know, maybe get your own house in order before you start telling the rest of us how it’s done.


Again as has been pointed out, you cannot explain why deaths vary. CA has deaths per million similar to other states. And yet some states have more deaths per million, some are about the same, and others less. 

You continue to ignore that because you really cannot explain it because it goes against your theory on the virus. The reality is different states have different types of populations. AZ for instance has had rather high deaths on our Indian reservations. 

Now tell me why someone hiking on a trail should be wearing a mask? Further as you state they probably are vaxxed in your area. What exactly would be the rationale? You said your area has roughly 90% vaxx rate.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s not about the lecture.  It’s about being able to look around and take in information from the world around you.
> 
> Singapore’s plan worked.  Santa Clara’s plan sort of worked.   Alabama’s plan did not work.
> 
> So, if everyone in Singapore is wearing an N95 to the market, and they have very low hospitalizations and deaths, then maybe they know something you don’t.
> 
> More dried seaweed?


It's almost as if you are saying that stopping COVID is the most important thing ever, even at the cost of robbing kids of their childhoods with their sleepovers and birthday parties, or at the cost of people's livelihoods, or at the cost of Australia and her liberties.  You've always said a cost/benefit analysis discussion needs to be had, but then always refuse to actually do it.

Tell me how Singapore's plan is working again?









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Singapore Gives Up Goal of Zero Covid-19 Cases
					

The country had fewer than 30 cases of covid-19 per day until recently.




					gizmodo.com
				













						Singapore Gives Up Goal of Zero Covid-19 Cases
					

The country had fewer than 30 cases of covid-19 per day until recently.




					gizmodo.com


----------



## Desert Hound

This is @dad4 preferred solution. Tyranny.

Hello Australia.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439458995144589314


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Pretty soon it will be the pandemic of the "unboostered".  Then what.


The myopic don't realize the "just do this and it's over" is an infinity mirror configuration where they can only see the mirrors they create. The first mirror was a two-week lockdown, the next was wearing a mask, then it was the vaccine, currently, it's vaccine and mask, as you point out @what-happened, the next mirror will add a booster to that. Maybe the next one will be booster + N95s. Fortunately, as Californians, we should have an inside track as I hear that Newsome has a guy in China that gave him a great deal on masks earlier in the pandemic.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> More dried seaweed?


Yes, we know your county has a lower BMI, younger population, more wealth and higher % of Asian community members than communities that have had differing Covid outcomes.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> This is @dad4 preferred solution. Tyranny.
> 
> Hello Australia.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439458995144589314


Apparently dad4 believes if even 1 life is saved, it's all worth it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This is @dad4 preferred solution. Tyranny.
> 
> Hello Australia.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439458995144589314


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
- Abraham Lincoln


----------



## N00B

I’ve enjoyed the conversation, but this is starting to sound more like an unwanted ‘intervention’ than a discussion.

Sometimes we all just need to respect a difference of opinions.


----------



## Desert Hound

N00B said:


> I’ve enjoyed the conversation, but this is starting to sound more like an unwanted ‘intervention’ than a discussion.
> 
> Sometimes we all just need to respect a difference of opinions.


Not when those differences of opinions mean closing or restricting biz, making kids jump through safety measures that make no difference, proposals that require people to show papers to live life. 

At that point it is far removed from a simple difference of opinion. One group wants to take away the rights of individuals and biz.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Your state has 2750 covid deaths per million residents.  My county has about 970.
> 
> I agree that some people are having trouble understanding how respiratory disease spreads.  But maybe you should be looking a little closer to home to figure it out.
> 
> You know, maybe get your own house in order before you start telling the rest of us how it’s done.




Two items for you today, and the Rand Paul one is number two. Number one is this: the southern spike in COVID numbers is over. Note just how dramatically hospitalizations in Florida have come down:










What's interesting about this is that no major behavioral changes in Florida have coincided with this dramatic decline.

Yet we're constantly told that bad behavior -- not following the rules laid down by our "public health experts" (a designation that makes me laugh now) -- is what makes the numbers go up, and good behavior makes them go down.

If that's true, then what made _these_ go down?

No answer from the lizard people, and not even the slightest curiosity about an answer.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

N00B said:


> I’ve enjoyed the conversation, but this is starting to sound more like an unwanted ‘intervention’ than a discussion.
> 
> Sometimes we all just need to respect a difference of opinions.


Unwanted intervention?  Lol!  What makes you say that?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Your state has 2750 covid deaths per million residents.  My county has about 970.
> 
> I agree that some people are having trouble understanding how respiratory disease spreads.  But maybe you should be looking a little closer to home to figure it out.
> 
> You know, maybe get your own house in order before you start telling the rest of us how it’s done.


...says the "conservative" tool who knowingly ushered in a dementia ridden babbling idiot who has single-handedly damaged more in this great country in 9 months than Obama did in 8 years.

Tell me, how many unvaccinated illegals and refugees get resettled in Santa Clara and flood your kids schools?


----------



## met61




----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Yes, we know your county has a lower BMI, younger population, more wealth and higher % of Asian community members than communities that have had differing Covid outcomes.


Interesting that you give credit to having an Asian population.

The benefit of an Asian population is cultural.  It kick started mask acceptance for us.  

You feel less weird wearing a mask because the tai chi folks in the park already have them on.

It meant we were busy shopping for masks while OC was busy sending death threats to their public health officials.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Interesting that you give credit to having an Asian population.
> 
> The benefit of an Asian population is cultural.  It kick started mask acceptance for us.
> 
> You feel less weird wearing a mask because the tai chi folks in the park already have them on.
> 
> It meant we were busy shopping for masks while OC was busy sending death threats to their public health officials.


Stop. We've been over this. The reclusive, germaphobe tech people in SC county are secretly thrilled that the pandemic has (1) increased their choices of delivery ten-fold (2) allowed them to stay at home in their pajamas all day while still collecting a paycheck, and (3) allowed them to remain anonymous and not need to speak to anyone when they do leave the house since they wear a mask.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> When one third of the population refused to follow the rules, I had two choices.
> 
> I could help spread covid, knowing that I was increasing cases, deaths, and hospitalizations.  Or I could follow the rules, knowing that it was a drop in the bucket.
> 
> Mostly, I chose to follow the rules to try to help.  But that doesn’t stop me from being mad at the assholes who never lifted a finger to help the entire time.


You are spinning circles with the deniers (the assholes). They only care about themselves.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Interesting that you give credit to having an Asian population.
> 
> The benefit of an Asian population is cultural.  It kick started mask acceptance for us.
> 
> You feel less weird wearing a mask because the tai chi folks in the park already have them on.
> 
> It meant we were busy shopping for masks while OC was busy sending death threats to their public health officials.


*yawn*

When you’re done responding to others through your reply to me, just let me know.

-Dried Seaweed


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are spinning circles with the deniers (the assholes). They only care about themselves.


They care about your liberty as much as their own.


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> Unwanted intervention?  Lol!  What makes you say that?


I’ve reconsidered…  He is asking for help.

Not that any intervention is ‘wanted’, but the posts here had devolved into a self-confirming echo chamber.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> They care about your liberty as much as their own.


“FREEDUMB!” Is not liberty. It’s obstinance rooted in political posturing.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> I’ve reconsidered…  He is asking for help.
> 
> The posts here had devolved into a self-confirming echo chamber.


That sounds about right.  Not sure why you put it in past tense though.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That sounds about right.  Not sure why you put it in past tense though.


Hope


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are spinning circles with the deniers (the assholes). They only care about themselves.


I'm telling people that we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.

I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.

I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


----------



## ChrisD

this was a great response


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I'm telling people that we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.
> 
> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.
> 
> I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


Perfect end to your run this day. You are back to thinking we could have saved 500000 people by just shutting down indoor dining and masking.  That wasn’t even what Japan, Singapore or South Korea did.  And even they had deaths and cases.

either this is finally a tacit admission of what we all know to be true (that you think australia did the right thing and that the goal should have been to use Australian methods towards zero covid) or you are the one sticking your fingers in your ears saying “la la la is la” while dreaming of a fantasy.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.


Actually, I think you did.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Perfect end to your run this day. You are back to thinking we could have saved 500000 people by just shutting down indoor dining and masking.  That wasn’t even what Japan, Singapore or South Korea did.  And even they had deaths and cases.
> 
> either this is finally a tacit admission of what we all know to be true (that you think australia did the right thing and that the goal should have been to use Australian methods towards zero covid) or you are the one sticking your fingers in your ears saying “la la la is la” while dreaming of a fantasy.


Yes, Singapore had cases and deaths.

 Less than 1% of what we did, even after accounting for population.

They did a lot right, and we did a lot wrong.

You can call it a fantasy.  Or you can admit that we screwed up.  One tiny part of that screw up was your decision to spend 16 months bad mouthing basic health advice.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> I'm telling people that we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.
> 
> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.
> 
> I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


How many did we save during H1N1?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> Hope


Not sure you wanted to thank me there.  My view of what constitutes the "self-confirming echo chamber" around here may differ from what you intended.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, Singapore had cases and deaths.
> 
> Less than 1% of what we did, even after accounting for population.
> 
> They did a lot right, and we did a lot wrong.
> 
> You can call it a fantasy.  Or you can admit that we screwed up.  One tiny part of that screw up was your decision to spend 16 months bad mouthing basic health advice.


Again you are neglecting what heavily masked heavily vaxxed Singapore is doing now, and the steps they took before which went way beyond masks and indoor dining

and maybe I wouldn’t have bad mouthed basic health advice if it actually made sense.  A partial lists: deliberate lies about masks and herd immunity thresholds, cloth masks bandanas and gaiters, masks are better than vaccines, outdoor masks, outdoor lockdowns, outdoor churches bad but blm protests fine, outdoor dining bans, shutting schools, shutting youth sports, or now the masks to the table on indoor dining. Great track record there dad4.  Real winners.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Not sure you wanted to thank me there.  My view of what constitutes the "self-confirming echo chamber" around here may differ from what you intended.


guess you underestimate others


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again you are neglecting what heavily masked heavily vaxxed Singapore is doing now, and the steps they took before which went way beyond masks and indoor dining
> 
> and maybe I wouldn’t have bad mouthed basic health advice if it actually made sense.  A partial lists: deliberate lies about masks and herd immunity thresholds, cloth masks bandanas and gaiters, masks are better than vaccines, outdoor masks, outdoor lockdowns, outdoor churches bad but blm protests fine, outdoor dining bans, shutting schools, shutting youth sports, or now the masks to the table on indoor dining. Great track record there dad4.  Real winners.


Not one of those complaints does anything to explain why Singapore’s policies worked and ours did not.   Most of it falls into the category of “why couldn’t I do the things I wanted to do”.   

I don‘t think we can find a solution by asking “how can I do more of what I wanted to do anyway”.   We had more than enough people asking that question, and it didn’t seem to work.

We need to ask “what did Singapore do that we did not do?”


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not one of those complaints does anything to explain why Singapore’s policies worked and ours did not.   Most of it falls into the category of “why couldn’t I do the things I wanted to do”.
> 
> I don‘t think we can find a solution by asking “how can I do more of what I wanted to do anyway”.   We had more than enough people asking that question, and it didn’t seem to work.
> 
> We need to ask “what did Singapore do that we did not do?”


Errr…..be a dictatorial state with a readily obedient population where people are canned for leaving gum on the street…everyone said you were a closet authoritarian…you Keep proving them right.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> guess you underestimate others


Hope


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr…..be a dictatorial state with a readily obedient population where people are canned for leaving gum on the street…everyone said you were a closet authoritarian…you Keep proving them right.


I don’t think the difference is chewing gum.  

You may be on to something with your “obedient” slur.   That’s another way of saying Singapore residents followed the rules and we did not.

I’ll certainly agree that was a problem, but I’d bet there were other differences as well.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> We need to ask “what did Singapore do that we did not do?”


As usual you miss it again. 

One might say what did Utah get right? They were open, had kids in schools, etc. And have one of the lowest rate of deaths in the US. Far better vs most countries as well. 

See how that works? 

The problem you have is you WANT the world to be as you lay out your own math. The issue is the real world doesn't work like that. 

If only the US which is a continent sized country could only do the same as a country that area wise would fit into LA and has fewer people, then the US would have been fine. 

Or if only the US had done what a small island (NZ) did and cut themselves off from the world....

If only we were like some Asian countries (Japan)...while forgetting about the Philippines with very strong protocols...the US could have...

You ideas are all so neat and orderly as you lay out your equations. 

The problem is you don't look at the real world and see that it never conforms to your numbers. Culture, geography, demographics, health, politics...etc will all throw your numbers out the window. 

You cannot wish the world to be as you like. You need to look around and update your thinking based on actual real world data and what is going on. 

But you cannot. 

You proudly claim to be the math guy. You proudly claim your area is 90% vaxxed. And yet in that area amongst your friends you are still running around with a mask. You are still not letting your kid doing birthdays (apparently the other vaxxed are doing the same), etc. That tells us again you don't look at real world data. If you did...you would be tossing the mask because everyone around you is vaxxed, your kid would be running around again, etc. 

You have not adjusted your view to the real world data in the area around where you live. 

If you cannot do so in the area where you live...you certainly cannot do so on a worldwide scale. Which is why your ideas/solutions are so out of touch with reality.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I don’t think the difference is chewing gum.
> 
> You may be on to something with your “obedient” slur.   That’s another way of saying Singapore residents followed the rules and we did not.
> 
> I’ll certainly agree that was a problem, but I’d bet there were other differences as well.


Yes, that is correct. "Breaking rules" is celebrated in the US. We have a plethora of business-related books written with this theme. We ignore federal laws related to the border happily hiring undocumented immigrants to save a little on child care, yard work, and our burritos, and imagine ourselves "woke" in doing so. We allow blocks of our cities to be taken over for weeks at a time. Our politicians don't follow their own rules that take away individual liberty and we put them back in office without blinking an eye. So, yeah, "rules" are viewed differently in the US vs. Singapore.

I found something a little "mathy" for you that highlights the difference between Singapore and the US. It's called the Hofstede Insights. The results indicate what appears to be so obvious to some of us - the cultures of the US and Singapore are very different so policy must be different since culture drives behavior.






						Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
					

Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…




					www.hofstede-insights.com
				




Also, a quick google search turned up this discussing how cultures drive behavior. I have no idea who this is, but it certainly gives those trying to understand cultures and behavior a place to start looking. I think the excerpt below is interesting given the "individualism" score difference between the US and Singapore above.

-----

The personality trait of extroversion motivates people’s individualistic thought and behavior so there are more differences in the population. If culture fosters a more extroverted personality style, we can expect more need for social interaction. Additionally, Individualistic cultures foster more assertive and outspoken behavior. When the general population encourages these gregarious behaviors, more ideas are exchanged and self-esteem increases.

The opposite of extroversion is not introversion. More correctly, people who are low in extroversion are more likely to be less socially inclined, but that doesn’t mean that they do not enjoy socializing. They may like to socialize in smaller groups or one on one. They can be less assertive. Additionally, a person who is low in extroversion tends to be less energetic and less active.

-----









						Lynda Gantt: How does culture affect behavior?
					

LYNDA GANTT Culture is a belief about ethics, behaviors and values that are held by a majority of people within a society. The culture of which we are a part




					santamariatimes.com
				




This all comes back to the argument that Grace continues to present - policy must be based on the behaviors of the culture of the population. It's reasonable. Elected officials aren't there because that's what people in Singapore want. Understand this or continue to create bad policy - with wonderful lab results to support it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I'm telling people that we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.
> 
> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.
> 
> I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


Youʻre babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yes, Singapore had cases and deaths.
> 
> Less than 1% of what we did, even after accounting for population.
> 
> They did a lot right, and we did a lot wrong.
> 
> You can call it a fantasy.  Or you can admit that we screwed up.  One tiny part of that screw up was your decision to spend 16 months bad mouthing basic health advice.


Have you paid your annual membership fees to the Flat Earther Anti-immune System movement?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Perfect end to your run this day. You are back to thinking we could have saved 500000 people by just shutting down indoor dining and masking.  That wasn’t even what Japan, Singapore or South Korea did.  And even they had deaths and cases.
> 
> either this is finally a tacit admission of what we all know to be true (that you think australia did the right thing and that the goal should have been to use Australian methods towards zero covid) or you are the one sticking your fingers in your ears saying “la la la is la” while dreaming of a fantasy.


It's a good thing we replaced the 500k deaths with 6x as many births in 2020 alone.  Worldwide there are 385,000 births a day.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> As usual you miss it again.
> 
> One might say what did Utah get right? They were open, had kids in schools, etc. And have one of the lowest rate of deaths in the US. Far better vs most countries as well.
> 
> See how that works?
> 
> The problem you have is you WANT the world to be as you lay out your own math. The issue is the real world doesn't work like that.
> 
> If only the US which is a continent sized country could only do the same as a country that area wise would fit into LA and has fewer people, then the US would have been fine.
> 
> Or if only the US had done what a small island (NZ) did and cut themselves off from the world....
> 
> If only we were like some Asian countries (Japan)...while forgetting about the Philippines with very strong protocols...the US could have...
> 
> You ideas are all so neat and orderly as you lay out your equations.
> 
> The problem is you don't look at the real world and see that it never conforms to your numbers. Culture, geography, demographics, health, politics...etc will all throw your numbers out the window.
> 
> You cannot wish the world to be as you like. You need to look around and update your thinking based on actual real world data and what is going on.
> 
> But you cannot.
> 
> You proudly claim to be the math guy. You proudly claim your area is 90% vaxxed. And yet in that area amongst your friends you are still running around with a mask. You are still not letting your kid doing birthdays (apparently the other vaxxed are doing the same), etc. That tells us again you don't look at real world data. If you did...you would be tossing the mask because everyone around you is vaxxed, your kid would be running around again, etc.
> 
> You have not adjusted your view to the real world data in the area around where you live.
> 
> If you cannot do so in the area where you live...you certainly cannot do so on a worldwide scale. Which is why your ideas/solutions are so out of touch with reality.


We don’t need to wonder what happens if you open up everything and tell people masks are a personal choice.

We can look at Arizona.  Your covid policy did all that, and it was a complete train wreck.

Maybe, if you all were Mormon, it would have been like Utah.  But you aren’t, and it wasn’t.


----------



## lafalafa

Speaking of the vaccine (s) now comes the push for boosters.

What is surprising to me is that the current Pfizer booster or 3rd shot is the same thing as their original two shots, same formula so how does that help vs the delta or variants?









						Should you get a Covid-19 booster now? An expert weighs in | CNN
					

The US Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has issued guidance that some adults can receive a third Covid-19 booster of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> We don’t need to wonder what happens if you open up everything and tell people masks are a personal choice.
> 
> We can look at Arizona.  Your covid policy did all that, and it was a complete train wreck.
> 
> Maybe, if you all were Mormon, it would have been like Utah.  But you aren’t, and it wasn’t.


Yah…poor Florida.  What will they ever do?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> We don’t need to wonder what happens if you open up everything and tell people masks are a personal choice.
> 
> We can look at Arizona.  Your covid policy did all that, and it was a complete train wreck.
> 
> Maybe, if you all were Mormon, it would have been like Utah.  But you aren’t, and it wasn’t.


We actually had mask mandates. And compliance was high.

The virus is going to do what it does.

I didn't realize that being Mormon conferred special immunity. Is that your hot take. They were open, going to schools, not strict on masks, had crowds at games and had better outcomes vs CA. And you think the difference is it was because they were Mormon?

You are detached from reality.

You are the math guy. Explain why Utah did SOO much better vs CA despite having policies dramatically different vs CA? Mormon is your answer?

I note that you never touch the fact on why you cannot explain why other states will similar cases to CA had higher, the same and lower deaths per million. You keep refusing to look and try to explain that. It is because you are religious in your belief about covid and this goes against your belief system.

CA and NM have about the same cases per million. NM has a lot more deaths per million. NM has had policies very similar to CA. As a matter of fact when I was there this summer in both states, CA was more open.

You dont touch that do you?

CA and CO have about the same cases per million. CO has a lot fewer deaths per million. Similar policies to CA. Why do they have so much fewer deaths vs CA?

You don't touch that do you?

The reason you don't is because it defies your preferred lock everything down and it all works scenario.

Demographics, region, health of population, etc all are key factors.

You refuse to think in those terms.

In other words you refuse to adjust your thinking to real world data in terms of what the virus is doing. You have tunnel vision.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## kickingandscreaming

lafalafa said:


> Speaking of the vaccine (s) now comes the push for boosters.
> 
> What is surprising to me is that the current Pfizer booster or 3rd shot is the same thing as their original two shots, same formula so how does that help vs the delta or variants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should you get a Covid-19 booster now? An expert weighs in | CNN
> 
> 
> The US Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has issued guidance that some adults can receive a third Covid-19 booster of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


The original shot appears to gives some protection against delta. Getting the booster just triggers our immune system again as it is feared the protection wanes over time.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

lafalafa said:


> Speaking of the vaccine (s) now comes the push for boosters.
> 
> What is surprising to me is that the current Pfizer booster or 3rd shot is the same thing as their original two shots, same formula so how does that help vs the delta or variants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should you get a Covid-19 booster now? An expert weighs in | CNN
> 
> 
> The US Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has issued guidance that some adults can receive a third Covid-19 booster of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Its a good question.  

With the mRNA and, to a somewhat lesser extent, adeno vaccine platforms it would be possible to have boosters that incorporate the most recent genetic changes identified in emerging variants.  The vaccine particles could even contain a mixture of mRNAs encoding all known S protein variants.  It is one of the advantages of the technology.  From a regulatory standpoint, however, this would require a more streamlined approval process.  And it would require a manufacturing process that could implement such changes at scale.

Why boosters if not directed specifically against delta?  There are many ethical and practical immunological issues surrounding boosters.  But from an epidemiological standpoint, it's a numbers game.  The idea is to curb the spread of delta or whatever (almost certainly smaller if it comes at all) wave may come next.  Basically, to reduce the total viral load in the population, thereby limiting the potential of new variants arising. Regardless of whether your initial immune priming was through vaxx or infection, the booster keeps circulating antibody levels high.  Against a high burst variant like delta this won't stop community transmission but it does reduce burst size.  So, say the R0 measure for delta infectivity goes from 6 to R(effective) of 3. Instead of one person infecting, on average, 6 they infect 3.  The wave is still growing.  But, since the total number of cases is a geometric expansion based on the R value, in 10 infection cycles that means a theoretical reduction in total cases from about 10000000 to 20000. That's the numbers game and the question becomes whether to play that game or not.


----------



## Keepermom2

lafalafa said:


> Speaking of the vaccine (s) now comes the push for boosters.
> 
> What is surprising to me is that the current Pfizer booster or 3rd shot is the same thing as their original two shots, same formula so how does that help vs the delta or variants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should you get a Covid-19 booster now? An expert weighs in | CNN
> 
> 
> The US Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has issued guidance that some adults can receive a third Covid-19 booster of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com





			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2108891


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> We don’t need to wonder what happens if you open up everything and tell people masks are a personal choice.
> 
> We can look at Arizona.  Your covid policy did all that, and it was a complete train wreck.
> 
> Maybe, if you all were Mormon, it would have been like Utah.  But you aren’t, and it wasn’t.


You sound desperate to perpetuate your religion.


----------



## met61

... you're being played.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.*


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Yah…poor Florida.  What will they ever do?


I dunno.  Return the morgue trucks now that they are done with them for the moment?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Keepermom2 said:


> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2108891


Dad 4 posted a much better Cluster RCT that used blood test for anti-bodies.  He didn't read his attachment but he should have.  Not sure if you actually read the study you posted? It is an observational study.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I dunno.  Return the morgue trucks now that they are done with them for the moment?


Send the trucks to California where the lock downs yielded the same or worse outcomes and people are more scientifically driven by fear.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## dad4

Dizzy, by now we all know you’re just reposting graphs you do not understand, but found on some right wing website.  

Glad to hear you now approve of cluster RCT.  Does that mean you’re willing to admit that surgical masks work to reduce effective transmission?


----------



## crush

Keith got his 3rd shot booster jab.  I think his last shot was bath salt.  This guy has lost his mind.  I used to watch him before he got all weirdo on us. Dr. Fraud say's now that to be 100% FULLY vaccinated ((obedient)). you need the third booster.  I'm too scared of shot #1 and he's right, I have no idea wtf is in these jabs.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Dizzy, by now we all know you’re just reposting graphs you do not understand


Do you mean in the same way you suggest policy without understanding how outcomes may vary wildly due to cultural differences? This doesn't even consider the many variables that are not controlled for in lab testing. Culturally, we are much more like AU than we are like Singapore (see below). To enforce your policy suggestions in the US, it would very likely look like what they are doing in AU. At this point that scares me 1000x more than COVID. Interestingly (fortunately?), COVID has coincided with a decreased appetite to enforce laws and rules in the areas where COVID fear and the overestimation of COVID risk is greatest. So, instead, we leave it to hostesses and flight attendants to enforce policy. What could possibly go wrong?






						Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
					

Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…




					www.hofstede-insights.com
				









						Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
					

Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…




					www.hofstede-insights.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

We were told that the Super Bowl would be a “superspreader” event, but all COVID metrics continued their decline in the weeks after it ended...


dad4 said:


> Dizzy, by now we all know you’re just reposting graphs you do not understand, but found on some right wing website.
> 
> Glad to hear you now approve of cluster RCT.  Does that mean you’re willing to admit that surgical masks work to reduce effective transmission?


q.e.d.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean in the same way you suggest policy without understanding how outcomes may vary wildly due to cultural differences? This doesn't even consider the many variables that are not controlled for in lab testing. Culturally, we are much more like AU than we are like Singapore (see below). To enforce your policy suggestions in the US, it would very likely look like what they are doing in AU. At this point that scares me 1000x more than COVID. Interestingly (fortunately?), COVID has coincided with a decreased appetite to enforce laws and rules in the areas where COVID fear and the overestimation of COVID risk is greatest. So, instead, we leave it to hostesses and flight attendants to enforce policy. What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
> 
> 
> Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hofstede-insights.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
> 
> 
> Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hofstede-insights.com


Covidsm is now a cult with two distint sects.  It's kinda weird but big pharma and big government will capitlize on it.   The government has given over $12B  to the big 3 for 700B doses.  Gotta get those in arms before they go bad.

With pills on the horizon, big pharma can make the big money.   Culturally we are more prone to take pills than to mask up or get jabbed.  Why on earth would you get a booster if you have a pill you can take the moment you get sick, especially with breakthrough infections on the rise.  For that matter, why even get jabbed if you have a pill.   I highy doubt treatment will be free of charge.  I'm sure a course of treatment will likley run upwards of $500 per.  Pretty profitable.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> *The latest report from the UK very clear for the past 14 days, 53% of new Delta infections are among fully vaxxed compared to unvaccinated and 67% of deaths now in fully vaccinated. Dr. Andrew Pollard said the jab isn't stopping transmission & the focus should be on dev nations.*
> 
> View attachment 11788


This seems about right.  Consider the ≥50 sub-group for Delta cases for example.  51,420 cases in fully vaxxed, 6724 in unvaxxed.  That's about 88% of the cases in vaxxed.  However, for this age group in UK I think its about 95% fully vaxxed. If assume delta exposure is equivalent between vaxxed and unvaxxed, those relative proportions would give an estimated odds risk ratio of ~2.5X more likely to get infected with no vaxx as opposed to fully vaxxed.  It's probably higher considering that many nonvaxxed will have immunity conferred through infection.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I'm telling people that we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.
> 
> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.
> 
> I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


You got it!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean in the same way you suggest policy without understanding how outcomes may vary wildly due to cultural differences? This doesn't even consider the many variables that are not controlled for in lab testing. Culturally, we are much more like AU than we are like Singapore (see below). To enforce your policy suggestions in the US, it would very likely look like what they are doing in AU. At this point that scares me 1000x more than COVID. Interestingly (fortunately?), COVID has coincided with a decreased appetite to enforce laws and rules in the areas where COVID fear and the overestimation of COVID risk is greatest. So, instead, we leave it to hostesses and flight attendants to enforce policy. What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
> 
> 
> Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hofstede-insights.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights
> 
> 
> Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hofstede-insights.com


By “culturally” you mean “FREEDUMB!” as opposed to listening to the scientific experts?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> By “culturally” you mean “FREEDUMB!” as opposed to listening to the scientific experts?


It cracks me up that you view life through such a narrow aperture.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I'm telling people that *we just killed a half million people by being stubborn about masks and indoor dining.*
> 
> I didn't expect flowers and a standing ovation.
> 
> I expected people to put their hands over their ears and chant "La, la, la.  I can't hear you."


  Pre-vaccination, 43% of all covid deaths were in long term care facilities.  Plenty of masking and not much recreational indoor dining.  Your commentary is truly reaching new broken record heights.  I know this thread has basically become an echo chamber. 

You would feel so much better if you just worried about yourself.  Some people just aren't going to listen and many people will make their own decisions.  Yoga is a better option.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> It cracks me up that you view life through such a narrow aperture.


That’s all I need to see through you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Pre-vaccination, 43% of all covid deaths were in long term care facilities.  Plenty of masking and not much recreational indoor dining.  Your commentary is truly reaching new broken record heights.  I know this thread has basically become an echo chamber.
> 
> You would feel so much better if you just worried about yourself.  Some people just aren't going to listen and many people will make their own decisions.  Yoga is a better option.


That’s the issue with you isn’t it? “if you just worried about yourself”. That’s all you do. Some of us are capable of far more than that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s all I need to see through you.


Tears of a clown.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s the issue with you isn’t it? “if you just worried about yourself”. That’s all you do. Some of us are capable of far more than that.


Apparently not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> You got it!


Keep talking to yourself.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

You anti-science Zealots should be ashamed of your moral posturing.  Cowards, the lot of you.           

n the UK, cancer authorities have been warning of the avoidable, excess cancer deaths that will result from COVID overreaction – as many as 60,000.  Richard Sullivan, a professor of cancer and global health at King’s College London and director of its Institute of Cancer Policy, warned:                       
The cessation and delay of cancer care will cause considerable avoidable suffering. Cancer screening services have stopped, which means we will miss our chance to catch many cancers when they are treatable and curable, such as cervical, bowel and breast. When we do restart normal service delivery after the lockdown is lifted, the backlog of cases will be a huge challenge to the healthcare system.

According to the Daily Mail on October 6:

Vital operations were canceled and patients missed out on potentially life-saving therapy in the spring because tackling Covid-19 became the sole focus of the health service, instead of cancer and other cruel diseases.

Almost 2.5 million people missed out on cancer screening, referrals or treatment at the height of lockdown, even though the NHS was never overwhelmed—despite fears it would be crippled by the pandemic.

Experts now fear the number of people dying as a result of delays triggered by the treatment of coronavirus patients could even end up being responsible for as many deaths as the pandemic itself.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Pre-vaccination, 43% of all covid deaths were in long term care facilities.  Plenty of masking and not much recreational indoor dining.  Your commentary is truly reaching new broken record heights.  I know this thread has basically become an echo chamber.
> 
> You would feel so much better if you just worried about yourself.  Some people just aren't going to listen and many people will make their own decisions.  Yoga is a better option.


You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."

Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.  

Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.  

Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.
> 
> Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


I just got my lab-confirmed T-cell immunity test back that showed robust immune memory over 10 months after I had COVID-19.  I have no fear of re-infection.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.
> 
> Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


Flat earther.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.
> 
> Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


Funny how the denier sect likes to project. They are the biggest snowflakes and safe space seekers around as they shield their eyes and ears while running for the cover of “alternative facts”, rightwing only media and friendly social media platforms.


----------



## Grace T.

It looks like the supply chain collapse has begun in parts of the us (it’s been underway for a few weeks in the Uk) There are reports on Twitter of panic buying certain items (you can guess which ones…we’ve been through this before). That’s enough at least in SoCal to push things over the edge. Only question is whether this is going to be a full north korea, a more moderate Soviet Union or merely Yugoslavia.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how the denier sect likes to project. They are the biggest snowflakes and safe space seekers around as they shield their eyes and ears while running for the cover of “alternative facts”, rightwing only media and friendly social media platforms.


I get it.  Youʻre just mad that you didnʻt get to opt out of an immune system.  And now it is causing all types of cerebral issues as you continue to deny the superior immunity that it provides to billions as they continue to flourish despite the common cold virus that  has been around for 55 million years.  Your fear is cloaked by your bitter flat earther comments.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Funny how the denier sect likes to project.  *
> *((Watch WHO you follow Husker.  You're in a cult dude, seriously))- crush  *



View attachment 11798


Grace T. said:


> It looks like the supply chain collapse has begun in parts of the us (it’s been underway for a few weeks in the Uk) There are reports on Twitter of panic buying certain items (you can guess which ones…we’ve been through this before). That’s enough at least in SoCal to push things over the edge. Only question is whether this is going to be a full north korea, a more moderate Soviet Union or merely Yugoslavia.


My pal said plumbing supplies are super backed up.  Copper and fittings from around the world are now backed up.  This is the economic squeeze in da war.  It's going to smack us ALL real hard.  I got prepped for all this starting in 2017.  We have too many politicians who have been bought, bribed and blackmailed.  It makes the build back better game no bueno.  That's why people like @tenacious wish they never promoted JB and can see clearly now that t was the Lion America needed to roar the truth to those WHO were caught cheating & lying and messing with the kids.  These Husker types and dad types want kids in mask as if they care about the kids.  That is a big lie from the liars.  This is a big time sting OP.  Were watching a movie and were all in it to win it   Happy TGIFS Grace T.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.
> 
> Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


You gone full preacher:

You want to deny you are sinners. You want to tell each other “ it was all inevitable and there I have not sinned”

but unfortunately for you God is watching and he knows you have sinned. He knows you have broken the commandments, which I have day in and day out repeated here. It was not all inevitable if every sinner had embraced God and his commandments.

it was your decision to break Gods commandments that led to damnation. It was you decision to not wear the sacred talisman, have a birthday party for your vaccinated kid, eat indoors when restaurants are open, or go to wicked gambling that led to 500 million unnecessary deaths

and now you will pay with damnation in the fires of hell.  And your false idols, whether they be trump, enlightenment reasoning, so called common sense, or plane old fashioned greed have led you down this false path. And do not say the devil made me do it. The devil exists to tempt and torment you by eating at the French laundry when you can not.  You are wicked and this is the result of your failure to embrace the true faith.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> View attachment 11799
> View attachment 11798
> 
> My pal said plumbing supplies are super backed up.  Copper and fittings from around the world are now backed up.  This is the economic squeeze in da war.  It's going to smack us ALL real hard.  I got prepped for all this starting in 2017.  We have too many politicians who have been bought, bribed and blackmailed.  It makes the build back better game no bueno.  That's why people like @tenacious wish they never promoted JB and can see clearly now that t was the Lion America needed to roar the truth to those WHO were caught cheating & lying and messing with the kids.  These Husker types and dad types want kids in mask as if they care about the kids.  That is a big lie from the liars.  This is a big time sting OP.  Were watching a movie and were all in it to win it   Happy TGIFS Grace T.


A gift for you above.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It looks like the supply chain collapse has begun in parts of the us (it’s been underway for a few weeks in the Uk) There are reports on Twitter of panic buying certain items (you can guess which ones…we’ve been through this before). That’s enough at least in SoCal to push things over the edge. Only question is whether this is going to be a full north korea, a more moderate Soviet Union or merely Yugoslavia.


I knew I should have done a better job of convincing my wife to get a bidet.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."


You safe space people calling non-safe space people safe spacers is kinda funny.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You gone full preacher:
> 
> You want to deny you are sinners. You want to tell each other “ it was all inevitable and there I have not sinned”
> 
> but unfortunately for you God is watching and he knows you have sinned. He knows you have broken the commandments, which I have day in and day out repeated here. It was not all inevitable if every sinner had embraced God and his commandments.
> 
> it was your decision to break Gods commandments that led to damnation. It was you decision to not wear the sacred talisman, have a birthday party for your vaccinated kid, eat indoors when restaurants are open, or go to wicked gambling that led to 500 million unnecessary deaths
> 
> and now you will pay with damnation in the fires of hell.  And your false idols, whether they be trump, enlightenment reasoning, so called common sense, or plane old fashioned greed have led you down this false path. And do not say the devil made me do it. The devil exists to tempt and torment you by eating at the French laundry when you can not.  You are wicked and this is the result of your failure to embrace the true faith.


Preach it Grace T.  Let me add a few things that are moo and take it with a grain of salt.  Firstly, no one is going to be sent to hell.  I do not believe "hell" is where God sends those who do not love him.  If my son told me he hates me and does not believe in me anymore, I wouldnt send him to hell.  I love my boy.  I would send him love letters and tell him I love him and I'm always here to talk to when he wants to.  Love is a choice, not forced jabs.  It makes no sense.  Hell is more of a figure of speech and a way to scare people into obedience.  God loves us all and wants us ALL saved.  Now let's talk about God's awesome reward system.  If your a good person, you get a good reward.  If you're a naughty person like being a cheater and liar all the time so you can win while others suffer, well then you will get what's coming and the person who was last will be first.  This is going to be epic Grace T


----------



## crush

I will say one big hallelujah for those who have become believers the last 10 months.  This is God's harvest and many are calling it Pentecost or second big harvest.  The door is open for anyone who wants to confess it all and then repent   The religious exemption to avoid two jabs+booster+mask forever is now through the roof.  People are kneeling for Jesus in record saves this year.  Cross over and find the Cross of Christ. Thousands have turned in their passports for Christ and can now avoid the jab and fly around the world without the Vax.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

In many opinion pieces pushing universal masking, a single paper by Leung et al was highly cited (see citations at bottom of page in link) as new, conclusive evidence. This paper was from the Cowling group at Hong Kong University, whose views towards universal masking seemed to be evolving rather rapidly.

*All of the claims in the paper and in subsequent citations regarding the prevention of SARS-CoV-2 by face masks rested on this panel:*




On the left side of the panel are the results of RT-PCR amplification tests with nasal and throat swabs. These identified patients as positive for SARS-CoV-2. Yet when masked or unmasked patients breathed into a particle collector, very few had detectable viral RNA (as shown in the right panels). In fact, only three had detectable viral RNA in large droplet particles, while viral RNA was detected in 4 individuals in aerosol-sized droplets (as shown by blue arrows I added). This resulted in only a significant difference in aerosol-sized droplets, and if even one of those patients had been negative, the significance would have likely disappeared. In addition, viral RNA doesn’t equal live virus, so there was no way they could know if what they were detecting in the four patients was actually infectious. To their credit, the authors admitted many of these limitations, yet suggested that “surgical face masks *could* prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from *symptomatic* individuals”. *No mention of asymptomatic individuals, which was the entire rationale for universal masking.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Then came DANMASK-19: The first randomized controlled trial for public masking during the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. In this study, “A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%)…Although* the difference observed was not statistically significant*, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.” *Of course, DANMASK-19 had some limitations, with a small number of infections during trial period, antibody tests used to verify 84% of infections, difficulty in determining compliance, no blinding (not possible with participants), and self-reported data.*

Yet the political pushback from the study was much more informative than the results of the study itself. First, despite no significant difference between masked and control groups in the study, the authors felt compelled to voice their support for universal masking in the discussion of the paper. Second, as an unusual decision, the journal _Annals of Internal Medicine_ published a critique at the same time as the article authored by Tom Frieden, former CDC director and fierce advocate of universal masking. Third, the chief editor of AIM, Christine Laine, published an apologetic commentary in the same issue, defending the decision to even allow the study to be published.

The New York Times, with obvious pre-publication access to the study results, released an article originally titled “Danish Study Questions Use of Masks to Protect Wearers” that acknowledged the outcome, but also downplayed the effect that the study would have on mask mandates. Yet they changed the headline the very next day, to read “A New Study Questions Whether Masks Protect Wearers. You Need to Wear Them Anyway”.

In contrast the the advocacy journalism of the New York Times, Professor Carl Heneghan’s own analysis of the DANMASK-19 study was flagged as misinformation on Facebook.


*Not surprisingly, a CDC study of a limited time period after mask mandates validated its own recommendations, with decreased cases in multiple areas of the U.S. three weeks after implementation of mask mandates. And of course this one had some limitations, too, as the only significant difference was in ages <65, and the study only examined a period of March-October, 2020, and ignored subsequent surges in the fall in many of the areas analyzed.

Interestingly, a similar study by Monica Gandhi and others was retracted, because they didn’t ignore the subsequent surges in the fall. *Their retraction letter noted the group will work to publish further work using data on the 2nd and 3rd waves, but these haven’t been forthcoming, almost a full year later.

An analysis of the effect of lifting mask mandates was eventually done by independent analyst Youyang Gu, who despite being 26 years old and living with his parents, managed to develop a COVID model more accurate than the IHME. His analysis showed no differences in cases in states where mask mandates were lifted compared to those where they were retained:


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> View attachment 11802


P.S. Sylvia, the best way to not catch a virus is to eat healthy, exercise daily and have talks with God everyday about how grateful you are for the amazing immune system you have.  If you want to take it the levels like Crush and lose almost 45 pounds and now have six pack, well then you need to do the following:  1.  Stop eating meat for 30 days.  2.  Stop drinking booze for 30 days.  Thirdly, take a few days and get truthful with yourself. Confess the good, bad and ugly and look for a fresh start and a new smile.  Fourthly, confess out loud to the one's you need to confess to for healing purpose only, not for forgiveness.  Only God forgives.  It's the human's job to forgive 7 x 77 x 777 times.  Tell loved one's your sorry.  Look to take long walks and look for new ways to make revenue so your never owned again.  5.  Follow the Light-  Dr. F


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


Hahaha! I feel like we've cycled through this at least once before. The bulk of the "we" on this board got the vaccine and wear masks when required. If you are going to be a preacher, you better get your message out to the unwashed masses that need it.



dad4 said:


> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


Again, you miss the point. It's not, "our leaders don't follow the rules, so why should I", it's "the behavior of the leaders of a culture will represent the behavior of the culture".

There is one thing that demonstrably "worked" here - the vaccine. Let's take a walk down memory lane at a headline that team fear held close not so long ago. 









						CDC director says face masks may offer more protection against COVID than a vaccine. Here's what other experts say.
					

Health experts point out that we don't yet know how effective a vaccine will be – but we do know masks help stop the spread.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Oops. The vaccine not only worked well in a "lab" setting, it actually worked in practice.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*The most recently hyped mask study compared villages in Bangladesh that received intensive promotion, instruction, and materials for cloth or surgical masking, compared with villages that did not receive any intervention.* This study reported a significant decrease in seropositive individuals, but only in those over 50 and only with surgical masks. *The interpretation of this study has some serious limitations, which are well-covered here and here. First, the researchers used case numbers as a starting point to group villages without knowing testing levels, then used seropositivity as the measured outcome. Second, the researchers really pushed masks on the population, so there’s little way of knowing exactly how this affected reporting, blood sampling, and changes in other behavior, which they noted was affected in masked villages (e.g. more distancing). And it’s unlikely the modest differences observed couldn’t be easily swamped by any number of those possible confounders.

If one actually takes the time to consider the preponderance of evidence regarding universal masking, it becomes extremely difficult to conclude that it has had, or was ever expected to have, a significant effect on the course of the pandemic.* The evidence certainly doesn’t come even close to matching the quasi-religious fervor exhibited by the popular media, mask-mandating helicopter politicians, or your judgy virtue-signaling neighbor. And all of the new evidence that supports universal masking should be even more suspect considering the stratospheric bias of the media, public health agencies, politicians, and a terrified public all clamoring for studies that report positive effects, despite their obvious limitations.

*In contrast to evidence, it is much more easy to conclude that safety culture politics trampled our understanding of this intervention so completely and at a level previously unknown in our lifetime, that it will take years to sort out its real-world effects. And it doesn’t take a PPE expert to realize that.*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You gone full preacher:
> 
> You want to deny you are sinners. You want to tell each other “ it was all inevitable and there I have not sinned”
> 
> but unfortunately for you God is watching and he knows you have sinned. He knows you have broken the commandments, which I have day in and day out repeated here. It was not all inevitable if every sinner had embraced God and his commandments.
> 
> it was your decision to break Gods commandments that led to damnation. It was you decision to not wear the sacred talisman, have a birthday party for your vaccinated kid, eat indoors when restaurants are open, or go to wicked gambling that led to 500 million unnecessary deaths
> 
> and now you will pay with damnation in the fires of hell.  And your false idols, whether they be trump, enlightenment reasoning, so called common sense, or plane old fashioned greed have led you down this false path. And do not say the devil made me do it. The devil exists to tempt and torment you by eating at the French laundry when you can not.  You are wicked and this is the result of your failure to embrace the true faith.


What are you mad at me for?  I told you that you could go back to telling yourself fairy tales.  Just say those experts don’t know anything, and that even Taiwan had someone die last Tuesday, therefore it is all equal.   

I mean, you’ll still be wrong, but you’ll feel better about it.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s the issue with you isn’t it? “if you just worried about yourself”. That’s all you do. Some of us are capable of far more than that.


Funny statement given what I do for a living.  I've learned you can't save everyone.  The old saying you can lead a horse to water.....is quite true when dealing with human beings.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What are you mad at me for?  I told you that you could go back to telling yourself fairy tales.  Just say those experts don’t know anything, and that even Taiwan had someone die last Tuesday, therefore it is all equal.
> 
> I mean, you’ll still be wrong, but you’ll feel better about it.


Who said I was mad at you?  I love preachers. Y’all are fun. One of most intellectually satisfying years of my life was my 3l year where I was basically decamped at the div school for the guy I was seeing.

you are the one who is all po’d at the experts being constantly wrong and us outsiders being more right than they were. It puts your world upside since that’s not the way things are supposed to operate

and it’s a huge assumption that I don’t feel good about it. My thing is enlightenment reasoning and I feel hella good having stood up for it against the inquisition. It makes me think had I lived in those days maybe I would have had the guts to do the same and stand up to the flat earthers.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You want a nice safe space where you tell each other that "it was all inevitable, so we didn't do anything wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, that statement is not true.  It was not inevitable.
> 
> Our personal decisions on masks, parties, restaurants, and gambling trips added up to over a half million unnecessary deaths.
> 
> Now go back to telling yourselves little fairy tales and blaming French Laundry Boy.


Your utopia does not exist and it was/is inevitable.  Humans are funny creatures.  They are going to believe what they want to believe.  Parties, restaurants and gambling trips did not kill over half of a million people.  It's silly to even say it.  Sounds like a news bite. If these types of things were as pivotal in death contribution as you say, we would be in the millions by now.  Did selfish actions by humans kill other humans?  Sure, we are humans and we directly and indirectly kill each other every day.  Your big hand little map approach to life isn't really tenable.  

Here is what also has killed 100s of thousands of people:  Shitty messenging by our government, shitty public health care policy execution(remember those long term facilities?), shitty and slanted media coverage.  Imagine a world where a vaccine would have just been a vaccine and not a polititcal entity all to itself.  It's pathetic and shameful


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how the denier sect likes to project. They are the biggest snowflakes and safe space seekers around as they shield their eyes and ears while running for the cover of “alternative facts”, rightwing only media and friendly social media platforms.


You need to consider applying for a writing gig at a few media outlets.  You have a future.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! I feel like we've cycled through this at least once before. The bulk of the "we" on this board got the vaccine and wear masks when required. If you are going to be a preacher, you better get your message out to the unwashed masses that need it.
> 
> 
> Again, you miss the point. It's not, "our leaders don't follow the rules, so why should I", it's "the behavior of the leaders of a culture will represent the behavior of the culture".
> 
> There is one thing that demonstrably "worked" here - the vaccine. Let's take a walk down memory lane at a headline that team fear held close not so long ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director says face masks may offer more protection against COVID than a vaccine. Here's what other experts say.
> 
> 
> Health experts point out that we don't yet know how effective a vaccine will be – but we do know masks help stop the spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oops. The vaccine not only worked well in a "lab" setting, it actually worked in practice.


The thread is different from this site.  The density of anti-vax and anti-mask people is just higher here.  

If you remember, that was the main reason for the creation of the covid off topic area.  Someone would ask whose club could find field space, and it would turn into a 20 page diatribe full of reposted garbage from Breitbart.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Your utopia does not exist and it was/is inevitable.  Humans are funny creatures.  They are going to believe what they want to believe.  *Parties, restaurants and gambling trips did not kill over half of a million people*.  It's silly to even say it.  Sounds like a news bite. If these types of things were as pivotal in death contribution as you say, we would be in the millions by now.  Did selfish actions by humans kill other humans?  Sure, we are humans and we directly and indirectly kill each other every day.  Your big hand little map approach to life isn't really tenable.
> 
> Here is what also has killed 100s of thousands of people:  Shitty messenging by our government, shitty public health care policy execution(remember those long term facilities?), shitty and slanted media coverage.  Imagine a world where a vaccine would have just been a vaccine and not a polititcal entity all to itself.  It's pathetic and shameful


What do you think enabled the virus to spread?  People gathering indoors with other people.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s all I need to see through you.


*That's all you need or that's all you can?*  You do know that reality is constructed by your brain.  Your brain unconsciously bends your perceptions to meet  your desires and expecations.  You need a bit of yoga in your life.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The thread is different from this site.  The density of anti-vax and anti-mask people is just higher here.
> 
> If you remember, that was the main reason for the creation of the covid off topic area.  Someone would ask whose club could find field space, and it would turn into a 20 page diatribe full of reposted garbage from Breitbart.


Speaking of garbage.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> What do you think enabled the virus to spread?  People gathering indoors with other people.


You are completly missing the point of our attempt at a discussion.  I'm not disagreeing with you that it was A cause.  You are angry at those people and think it's the primary cause.  I'm here to tell you that it's not the only cause.  The more dangerous aspect of this event has been the inadaquate response by our national and local health care system.  I know you can't see that and it's ok. Your fences are high, you acreage is small and your experience outside of thoses fences are minimal. You are coming to a conclusion with a bias.  Common actually.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> What do you think enabled the virus to spread?  People gathering indoors with other people.


A result of piss poor policy making……ie Closing Parks and Beaches.

It’s funny you blame the masses for not following policy, but don’t blame the policy makers for making bad policy the masses (including the policy makers themselves….see Pelosi, Newsome, etc) don’t care to follow.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> What do you think enabled the virus to spread?  People gathering indoors with other people.


False.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> You are completly missing the point of our attempt at a discussion.  I'm not disagreeing with you that it was A cause.  You are angry at those people and think it's the primary cause.  I'm here to tell you that it's not the only cause.  The more dangerous aspect of this event has been the inadaquate response by our national and local health care system.  I know you can't see that and it's ok. Your fences are high, you acreage is small and your experience outside of thoses fences are minimal. You are coming to a conclusion with a bias.  Common actually.


Its match day, but, quickly, there is much to unpackage with respect to laying blame at the foot of the public health response.  Part of the unpackaging, from my perspective, would involve public health messaging vs a counteracting infodemic.  For example, just yesterday, rehashed data where some Twitter doctor says "Hey vaxx not working" but just a 5 min look at the underlying numbers in a table that most will never both to look at shows vaxx with a 2.5X protective effect over unvaxxed.  Another part would involve public heath measures being but forth as some form of tyranny akin to rounding people up into gas chambers.  And so forth.  In the end it would distill towards having a government that is effective as our fragmentation allows us to have.   And partisan arguments ensue as to which side is to blame.  whatever.  But from a strict epidemiological standpoint our inability to act rapidly and collectively cost lives early on and continues to do so now.   For a bIt while longer but this is mostly done at this point.  Our division was a form of weakness the virus could exploit.  But it is also a form of weakness that can be exploited by other actors, and, as I see it, that's just getting started.  So ultimately, in this country with so many advantages, it's on us.  Was the human costs of the pandemic worth pursuing our little excercise in social disfunction?  I'd say the answer appears to be yes.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> You are completly missing the point of our attempt at a discussion.  I'm not disagreeing with you that it was A cause.  You are angry at those people and think it's the primary cause.  I'm here to tell you that it's not the only cause.  The more dangerous aspect of this event has been the inadaquate response by our national and local health care system.  I know you can't see that and it's ok. Your fences are high, you acreage is small and your experience outside of thoses fences are minimal. You are coming to a conclusion with a bias.  Common actually.


The local and national health care system instituted measures so strict that many argue they are unconstitutional, funded the development of multiple vaccines and made them available for free to anyone who would take them, and waged a public information struggle with disinformation sourced by idiots and opportunists -- what more do you think they should have done?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> *That's all you need or that's all you can?*  You do know that reality is constructed by your brain.  Your brain unconsciously bends your perceptions to meet  your desires and expecations.  You need a bit of yoga in your life.


He needs some heart warmer's bro to open the heart chakra.  Dude is ice cold and hard hearted and needs some plants from nature to wake his ass up and open the right side of his dead brain.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The local and national health care system instituted measures so strict that many argue they are unconstitutional, funded the development of multiple vaccines and made them available for free to anyone who would take them, and waged a public information struggle with disinformation sourced by idiots and opportunists -- what more do you think they should have done?


Not this:


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Its match day, but, quickly, there is much to unpackage with respect to laying blame at the foot of the public health response.  Part of the unpackaging, from my perspective, would involve public health messaging vs a counteracting infodemic.  For example, just yesterday, rehashed data where some Twitter doctor says "Hey vaxx not working" but just a 5 min look at the underlying numbers in a table that most will never both to look at shows vaxx with a 2.5X protective effect over unvaxxed.  Another part would involve public heath measures being but forth as some form of tyranny akin to rounding people up into gas chambers.  And so forth.  In the end it would distill towards having a government that is effective as our fragmentation allows us to have.   And partisan arguments ensue as to which side is to blame.  whatever.  But from a strict epidemiological standpoint our inability to act rapidly and collectively cost lives early on and continues to do so now.   For a bIt while longer but this is mostly done at this point.  Our division was a form of weakness the virus could exploit.  But it is also a form of weakness that can be exploited by other actors, and, as I see it, that's just getting started.  So ultimately, in this country with so many advantages, it's on us.  Was the human costs of the pandemic worth pursuing our little excercise in social disfunction?  I'd say the answer appears to be yes.


Shocking.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Shocking.


it should be.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Christian Britschgi reports on the CDC’s, and state and local governments’, unlawful eviction moratoria. A slice:

These eviction moratoriums were dropped into place with virtually no public discussion of the limits of bureaucratic power, the rights of private property holders, the unintended consequences, or any other ramifications of such moves. Governments simply asserted that they had these powers and then used them.

The moratoriums—like so many other extreme COVID-era measures that were supposed to be an emergency stopgap—soon became a seemingly permanent feature of public policy. In the initial months of the pandemic, 43 states adopted some form of eviction restriction, according to the Eviction Lab at Princeton University. By September 2020, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), leaning on a novel, near-limitless interpretation of its own powers, put a national moratorium in place. States could still implement their own eviction bans, but only if they were stricter than what existed at the federal level.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> it should be.


Agree.  People think we are divided when mandates unite us.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Those who have had #COVID and do not want the vaccine are not anti-vaccine. They simply understand science and natural acquired immunity.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The local and national health care system instituted measures so strict that many argue they are unconstitutional, funded the development of multiple vaccines and made them available for free to anyone who would take them, and waged a public information struggle with disinformation sourced by idiots and opportunists -- what more do you think they should have done?


Your statement isn't wrong.  But you've picked a side.  Local health professionals, from the aspect of policy implementation, have a responsibility to call a wrong when they see it.  The northeast is a great example.  Government cronyism and partisan posturing led to spread and people dying. No one spoke up.  There is an advantage of watching others go first.  With that said, people are incapable of not picking a side and making most things political.  I will tell you most health care professionals that operate at the ground level would rather be left alone to do their job and not get caught up in politics.  

Your statement about public disinformation is short sighted and part of the problem.  You operate under the blanket of politics.  Don't you remember current senior leadership swearing off of vaccines if the orangeman was behind the development and distribution of them?  Do you think  vaccine hesitancy would have been less if the parrot heads hadn't made it about politics.  

What health policies that predated vaccine mandes were considered unconstitutional?


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> But from a strict epidemiological standpoint our inability to act rapidly and collectively cost lives early on and continues to do so now.


Given the political division in this country at the time, this is not suprising.  I would add our lack of understanding the disease and how to manage it factors in.  We fundamentally know how to respond to a contagious respiratory virus.  Our challenge was scale.   Our early medical miscalculations on how to manage the disease also cost untold lives.  

There is plenty to  unpack and plenty of blame to go around.  Unfortunately politics is blinding and politicians have short memories.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Those who have had #COVID and do not want the vaccine are not anti-vaccine. *They simply understand science and natural acquired immunity.*


Thank you IZ.  Jan 20, 2020 is bday of virus.  Plane was full of sick people and I was one of them.  Pins and needles in my back.  Hot with flash.  Fever of 103.  Weak and misery I was.  I looked at me wife and told her, "I so sorry Queen Bee.  You were right and I was dualistically wrong about everything and was too prideful to listen to the Angel." I jumped off meat and started to wake my ass up with the truth and I too had some confessions and repentence to do.  We ALL need to confess.


----------



## crush

Dr. Fraud say's it's just too early to tell if we can all gather for Christmas this year


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Agree.  People think we are divided when mandates unite us.


I see.  If no mandates, then no division.  Yet the starting point this AM was a failed public health response.  Are we still at the wash cycle or up to the rinse cycle at this point? I'll agree with you on this.  From strictly a political standpoint, in this context Sweden's approach can be consider successful in that the blame game for a big up front dry tinder wave can be much more easily attributed.  Heads can (and have, if you follow their politcal ripples) roll.  Perhaps then it is easier to move on, or to not let the pandemic simply be another facet of a broader set of things.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Your statement isn't wrong.  But you've picked a side.  Local health professionals, from the aspect of policy implementation, have a responsibility to call a wrong when they see it.  The northeast is a great example.  Government cronyism and partisan posturing led to spread and people dying. No one spoke up.  There is an advantage of watching others go first.  With that said, people are incapable of not picking a side and making most things political.  I will tell you most health care professionals that operate at the ground level would rather be left alone to do their job and not get caught up in politics.
> 
> Your statement about public disinformation is short sighted and part of the problem.  You operate under the blanket of politics.  Don't you remember current senior leadership swearing off of vaccines if the orangeman was behind the development and distribution of them?  Do you think  vaccine hesitancy would have been less if the parrot heads hadn't made it about politics.
> 
> What health policies that predated vaccine mandes were considered unconstitutional?


You seem to have picked a side.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> You seem to have picked a side.


Hatred and Dissension in the Nation will Heal!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Narrow-minded "experts" have elevated a single risk to children in the minds of the public and will be shocked when children are harmed by other, more salient risks.—Jay Bhattachyra


----------



## Bruddah IZ

“We have understood natural immunity since at least the Athenian Plague in 430 BC.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

To minimize hospital-acquired infections, hospitals should actively seek to hire staff with what is superior natural immunity from prior Covid disease and use them for their most vulnerable patients.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Nice to see the NFL running an ad that acknowledges the deadly reallocation of resources to COVID while critical pre-cancer screenings were treated as if Cancer was not the #2 cause of death in the U.S.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I see.  If no mandates, then no division.  Yet the starting point this AM was a failed public health response.  Are we still at the wash cycle or up to the rinse cycle at this point? I'll agree with you on this.  From strictly a political standpoint, in this context Sweden's approach can be consider successful in that the blame game for a big up front dry tinder wave can be much more easily attributed.  Heads can (and have, if you follow their politcal ripples) roll.  Perhaps then it is easier to move on, or to not let the pandemic simply be another facet of a broader set of things.


Started with a failed public response?


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> “We have understood natural immunity since at least the Athenian Plague in 430 BC.”


the one that killed 25% of the Athenian population, we should rely on the response to that! So we rely on natural immunity for smallpox & typhus, ok then.

Was that the same reliance on natural immunity with the Bubonic plague too, 100M dead, only the fittest survive, in the 1300s?

Maybe you should have some original thoughts instead of parroting & plagiarizing things you've read. 

I'll await your "witty" one-liner or laughing face "like". I won't hold my breadth for any substance though.


----------



## crush

This Isn't Wrong, It's Flat Out Abuse
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You seem to have picked a side.


Yep, the side that supports demographic appropriate vaccination,  disease treatment, sensible mitigation measures, and government skepticism.


----------



## crush

@Bruddah IZ and @Grace T. and @anyonelse who is reading along; Listen and read this song in your heart and go live & love life.  The truth hurts only our ego.  Let go of your ego ((I call my ego Karl)), forgive him for he no not what he does.  After reconciliation, allow your Karl to come along to the new earth, where pride and ego is put aside.  Just a blissful of Love beams from the Creator of Love, which is why we have Light and Shadow in the first place.  They go together.  It's time to take your game HIGHER!  It's time for the truth to reveal the truth


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> the one that killed 25% of the Athenian population, we should rely on the response to that! So we rely on natural immunity for smallpox & typhus, ok then.
> 
> Was that the same reliance on natural immunity with the Bubonic plague too, 100M dead, only the fittest survive, in the 1300s?
> 
> Maybe you should have some original thoughts instead of parroting & plagiarizing things you've read.
> 
> I'll await your "witty" one-liner or laughing face "like". I won't hold my breadth for any substance though.


Lol! Substance and originality?  You mean for the unoriginal, unsubstantive post above?


----------



## crush

Halloween is a go but not Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Let's see if spooky doo day is ok for all to celebrate with masks and all the monsters.  Anyway, let's see what are pals over at CDC have to say about the holidays.  

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unveiled its latest guidance for safely celebrating the upcoming holiday season on Saturday.

*The agency suggests, among other considerations, that families hold virtual holiday celebrations or have socially distanced celebrations outdoors with neighbors and friends. * ((zoom holiday coming right up))

*The CDC also recommended the idea of using a window fan to keep the air at an indoor party as fresh as possible. *((Is this a joke?))

*"If celebrating indoors, bring in fresh air by opening windows and doors, if possible.* *You can use a window fan in one of the open windows to blow air out of the window. This will pull fresh air in through the other open windows," the CDC said.  *((Seriously, is this some sort of joke?))

*Mask-wearing indoors is still recommended for unvaccinated people, along with wearing masks outdoors in crowded settings. Fully vaccinated people are recommended to wear masks in areas with substantial COVID-19 transmission.  *((??????))

*The CDC is also encouraging people to hold off on holiday travel until they’re fully vaccinated, but if unvaccinated people have to travel—including children who so far aren’t eligible for the shot—the CDC has suggestions for safer travel like making short trips by car and taking flights with fewer stops or layovers.  *((did dad4 take over the CDC?))


----------



## Desert Hound

Another country starting to realize they went down the wrong path. Reality strikes again. The only things there were successful at were

- taking away freedoms
- killing the economy
- decimating biz and individual incomes

Some on the forum from up around the bay area would call that a success!!

_New Zealand is ending its effort to keep Covid-19 out of the remote South Pacific country as the economic costs mount and *after its latest lockdown failed to halt the spread of the virus.

--*

But its strategy has *become increasingly untenable *as the more contagious Delta variant of the virus has become endemic in other countries, which are increasingly reopening, including neighbor Australia, which plans to restart international travel in November. Former New Zealand Prime Minister John Key recently said the country had become a *“smug hermit kingdom.*”

- -_

They still have a way to go before they end the madness. Note what they are going to "allow".

_The first reopening step for Auckland, which is home to about 1.5 million people, will be effective Wednesday and *allow two households to meet outdoors*, up to a maximum of 10 people, and *permit recreational activities such as going to the beach or hunting*.

--

New Zealand’s economy is likely to *contract by 7.0% in the three months* through September compared with the previous quarter, reflecting the impact of the Auckland lockdown, said Jarrod Kerr, chief economist at Kiwibank.

According to forecasts by New Zealand’s Treasury, *government debt will more than double from pre-pandemic levels* due to the costs of the lockdown strategy

--

Industries such as tourism and hospitality have shriveled

--

“I think it is finally a realization that the elimination strategy and the modeling that justified it must be abandoned in this country,”









						New Zealand to End ‘Zero Covid-19’ Strategy
					

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says the government is aiming to “actively control the virus” as it prepares to ease restrictions.




					www.wsj.com
				



_


----------



## crush

On a side soccer note, I owe @Desert Hound TWO COLD BEERS.  His dd team won yesterday's big game and bet.  I will honor my loss the next time I see you.  Sorry to miss out on the game.  Are you ok with a double or nothing next game in AZ?


----------



## Desert Hound

crush said:


> On a side soccer note, I owe @Desert Hound TWO COLD BEERS.  His dd team won yesterday's big game and bet.  I will honor my loss the next time I see you.  Sorry to miss out on the game.  Are you ok with a double or nothing next game in AZ?
> 
> View attachment 11809


Sure. I would prefer to have 4 cold beers.


----------



## GoldenGate

OMG, have all of you seen the Reddit thread?  https://www.reddit.com/t/herman_cain/

I know, I mean knew, one of last week's "Herman Cain Award" winners.  He literally got Covid attending an anti-mask anti-vax convention (this one: https://www.kcm.org/watch/event/2021-southwest-believers-convention-flashpoint-live-530-pm-ct-0), then spent over a month in the ICU until he expired. Maybe KCM will pay the family's bills instead of just dropping a few bucks into the Go Fund Me and promising to organize all the "prayer warriors" who clearly did not pray enough to save daddy.  But I bet KCM is "sorry not sorry" that it is killing people, because it's hard to dupe people to send you money if you don't have some urgent conspiracy theory for them to believe.  It is the very foundation of the prosperity gospel.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> OMG, have all of you seen the Reddit thread?  https://www.reddit.com/t/herman_cain/
> 
> I know, I mean knew, one of last week's "Herman Cain Award" winners.  He literally got Covid attending an anti-mask anti-vax convention (this one: https://www.kcm.org/watch/event/2021-southwest-believers-convention-flashpoint-live-530-pm-ct-0), then spent over a month in the ICU until he expired. Maybe KCM will pay the family's bills instead of just dropping a few bucks into the Go Fund Me and promising to organize all the "prayer warriors" who clearly did not pray enough to save daddy.  But I bet KCM is "sorry not sorry" that it is killing people, because it's hard to dupe people to send you money if you don't have some urgent conspiracy theory for them to believe.  It is the very foundation of the prosperity gospel.


WHO let you out of your gage GG?  Sendmego right now and i will go for you   Buy me a cup of coffee or better yet, Helppaymybills.love bro.  I will PM you all my channels so you can help Crush stay live 24/7, 365 days.  Say hi to your pay pals Espola and Husker Du.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Another country starting to realize they went down the wrong path. Reality strikes again. The only things there were successful at were
> 
> - taking away freedoms
> - killing the economy
> - decimating biz and individual incomes
> 
> Some on the forum from up around the bay area would call that a success!!
> 
> _New Zealand is ending its effort to keep Covid-19 out of the remote South Pacific country as the economic costs mount and *after its latest lockdown failed to halt the spread of the virus.
> 
> --*
> 
> But its strategy has *become increasingly untenable *as the more contagious Delta variant of the virus has become endemic in other countries, which are increasingly reopening, including neighbor Australia, which plans to restart international travel in November. Former New Zealand Prime Minister John Key recently said the country had become a *“smug hermit kingdom.*”
> 
> - -_
> 
> They still have a way to go before they end the madness. Note what they are going to "allow".
> 
> _The first reopening step for Auckland, which is home to about 1.5 million people, will be effective Wednesday and *allow two households to meet outdoors*, up to a maximum of 10 people, and *permit recreational activities such as going to the beach or hunting*.
> 
> --
> 
> New Zealand’s economy is likely to *contract by 7.0% in the three months* through September compared with the previous quarter, reflecting the impact of the Auckland lockdown, said Jarrod Kerr, chief economist at Kiwibank.
> 
> According to forecasts by New Zealand’s Treasury, *government debt will more than double from pre-pandemic levels* due to the costs of the lockdown strategy
> 
> --
> 
> Industries such as tourism and hospitality have shriveled
> 
> --
> 
> “I think it is finally a realization that the elimination strategy and the modeling that justified it must be abandoned in this country,”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand to End ‘Zero Covid-19’ Strategy
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says the government is aiming to “actively control the virus” as it prepares to ease restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Yeah it looks like containment in New Zealand has failed.  Auckland has been sealed off from the rest of the country but now they are getting outbreaks outside of Auckland and they unlike the past haven't been able to tap down cases to zero.









						New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Meanwhile looks like I was wrong about Australia hitting peak....









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




And masked and vaxxed Singapore (dad4's new favorite) keeps going up.









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Grace T.

Fauci still wants zero covid


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442935759036579842
Meanwhile even my morning radio show (which for the most part tries to avoid politics) was tearing into Fauci over the maybe no Christmas suggestion.









						Fauci slammed for claiming ‘too soon’ to consider COVID and Christmas gatherings
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci is facing backlash after he insisted that it was “too soon” to tell whether the COVID-19 pandemic would disrupt this year’s Christmas holiday gatherings.




					nypost.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is Fauci this weekend and he isn't sure Xmas will be safe.

And yet we have had arenas and stadiums full of people now for months without becoming as they say super spreader events.

And despite that...he wonders if families getting together for Xmas will be OK



And here apparently pushing zero covid. Note he is unhappy if the outcome is not sick enough to need medical help. That is a zero covid mindset.



Now other countries are starting to deal with reality and moving on. At what point will the US do the same?


_Meanwhile, in less insane countries with a more competent managerial class, t*hey're ending all covid restrictions and mandates*. All of them.

Norway and Indonesia have declared that covid is not a pandemic any longer, it is endemic, like the flu, and it will be with us forever,* so we cannot continue pretending these "emergency temporary lockdowns" are being made on an emergency temporary basis: lockdowns against a virus that is now with us forever like the flu would be routine and permanent.*

And Norway and Indonesia said, "No."

The governments were also very mature and honest about covid: they said that they knew, for a fact, that there would be greater outbreaks caused by their ending of restrictions and lockdowns. Indonesia said there could be an outbreak three times as large as the one they're dealing with now, and they're in the midst of a major outbreak.

*They advised citizens to keep that in mind and make sound judgments and take personal responsibility for protecting themselves.*_

_*And then they declared an end to lockdowns.*_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

​



​
It's "too soon" to say whether we'll be able to gather at Christmas, Dr. Fauci is now telling us. Well, we didn't listen to him last year and I have no intention of listening to him now.

But:

Wouldn't it be nice to have a news media that challenged these clowns once in a while?

For example, Fauci should have to explain this chart:


​






​
This graph traces COVID hospitalizations in the Midwest over time. Here's why it matters to the "maybe you can't have Christmas" insanity: the hospitalization peak occurs right around Thanksgiving, before the alleged effects of Thanksgiving gatherings would have had time to take effect. And then, instead of spiking in the wake of those gatherings, the numbers plummet -- and continue to plummet consistently and without interruption all throughout Christmas, as if that holiday hadn't even occurred.

Would Dr. Fauci care to explain to us how, if his advice is sound, such a thing could have occurred?

Good thing for him no one is going to ask him, because what could he possibly say?

Speaking of bad Fauci predictions, he said "I don't think it's smart" for college football to be played before full stadiums. After saying that, COVID numbers in the South, where these games are being played regularly, began to plummet. As you can see below, they began to plummet almost immediately after Fauci warned them not to do it.

In a weird way you almost have to be impressed by someone who can be so precise in his wrongness:


​






​
Meanwhile, courtesy of worldometers -dot- info, let's check back in with Florida. The drop in COVID deaths there has been extremely sudden and sharp, even though the general public has not modified its behavior at all. (I live here, so I know.)

The chart says it all:


​






​
*As a friend of mine puts it, thank goodness we can be sure the media will get right to the bottom of this!*


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> ​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> It's "too soon" to say whether we'll be able to gather at Christmas, Dr. Fauci is now telling us. Well, we didn't listen to him last year and I have no intention of listening to him now.
> 
> But:
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a news media that challenged these clowns once in a while?
> 
> For example, Fauci should have to explain this chart:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> This graph traces COVID hospitalizations in the Midwest over time. Here's why it matters to the "maybe you can't have Christmas" insanity: the hospitalization peak occurs right around Thanksgiving, before the alleged effects of Thanksgiving gatherings would have had time to take effect. And then, instead of spiking in the wake of those gatherings, the numbers plummet -- and continue to plummet consistently and without interruption all throughout Christmas, as if that holiday hadn't even occurred.
> 
> Would Dr. Fauci care to explain to us how, if his advice is sound, such a thing could have occurred?
> 
> Good thing for him no one is going to ask him, because what could he possibly say?
> 
> Speaking of bad Fauci predictions, he said "I don't think it's smart" for college football to be played before full stadiums. After saying that, COVID numbers in the South, where these games are being played regularly, began to plummet. As you can see below, they began to plummet almost immediately after Fauci warned them not to do it.
> 
> In a weird way you almost have to be impressed by someone who can be so precise in his wrongness:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Meanwhile, courtesy of worldometers -dot- info, let's check back in with Florida. The drop in COVID deaths there has been extremely sudden and sharp, even though the general public has not modified its behavior at all. (I live here, so I know.)
> 
> The chart says it all:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> *As a friend of mine puts it, thank goodness we can be sure the media will get right to the bottom of this!*


Florida changed how it reports Covid deaths so that they are now reports based on the date of death, not the date of the report.  This particular website allows states to report based on the deaths reported on a single day, or based on the deaths when they occurred.  Because FL is going with the latter, this allows it to keep all of its recent Covid deaths "off the books" for weeks and give the falso impression to weak-minded fools like yourself that the death rate has gone to almost zero.  But when you check back in two weeks later, that 17 days average over the last 7 days will look more like 200-300.  

If you look at the correct reporting like virtually every other state, you see that the number is in the 250 range over a 7 day moving average right now.  









						Florida Coronavirus Map and Case Count
					

See the latest charts and maps of coronavirus cases, deaths, hospitalizations and vaccinations in Florida.



					www.nytimes.com
				




Are you intentionally misleading people, or are you this stupid?


----------



## crush

*Good morning to everyone but Facebook tech support who just now realized the parts they need to keep operational are on a ship in the Pacific and can’t get them unloaded.*


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Here is Fauci this weekend and he isn't sure Xmas will be safe.
> 
> And yet we have had arenas and stadiums full of people now for months without becoming as they say super spreader events.
> 
> And despite that...he wonders if families getting together for Xmas will be OK
> 
> View attachment 11810
> 
> And here apparently pushing zero covid. Note he is unhappy if the outcome is not sick enough to need medical help. That is a zero covid mindset.
> 
> View attachment 11811
> 
> Now other countries are starting to deal with reality and moving on. At what point will the US do the same?


He's now forced to walk it back.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445048272880603136


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> He's now forced to walk it back.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445048272880603136


I must have missed something -- what is he walking back?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I must have missed something -- what is he walking back?


I suspect strongly that your gravestone will read...

"I must have missed something"


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I must have missed something -- what is he walking back?


No no no no.  Let me splain it to you EOTL.  Dr. Fraud is saying if you got Vaxxed twice with a third booster, you can have a normal Xmas without Christ because no liar can be with Christ.  It's like water & oil mixed with dead birds.  If you are not jabbed with the mark of the beast ((Just like Grandpa Gates BG almost pulled off)) then you can;t have Christmas with family and if you do, you need to bring a fan and open window to blow the Divoc 19 out the window.  The CDC boss lady says the vax can spread virus too so I all confused.  The Cargo ships are not moving and 1000s are sitting out in the see.  You sea, my buddie Eddie was out jet skiing this morning and he says he's never scene a seen like it befour.  Big old fat Cargo ships.  Plus, he can't go up to HB because someone decided to spill some oil.  Fake Book is down now as is Instagram.  Both of these platforms are not good for adults or the kids.  Stocks???  Bitcoin??  Grab & Go is going to be, Share & Stay


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> ​
> 
> ​
> 
> ​
> let's check back in with Florida. The drop in COVID deaths there has been extremely sudden and sharp, even though the general public has not modified its behavior at all. (I live here, so I know.)
> 
> The chart says it all:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Dark humor in the "nobody changed behavior but it went away anyway" quote.  Like sitting beside a campfire being lazy, doing nothing and going "Hey, anybody got any ideas why its not burning anymore".  But check out the change in peak to base ratio you get going from a ~R2 virus to a ~R6 virus.  So, yes, the chart says it all.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I suspect strongly that your gravestone will read...
> 
> "I must have missed something"


That's an all-time top ten post.

I don't LOL, but I just did.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Yeah it looks like containment in New Zealand has failed.  Auckland has been sealed off from the rest of the country but now they are getting outbreaks outside of Auckland and they unlike the past haven't been able to tap down cases to zero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile looks like I was wrong about Australia hitting peak....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And masked and vaxxed Singapore (dad4's new favorite) keeps going up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


WTF are you talking about?

The U.S. way of doing things has resulted in 2200 per million dying of Covid-19.  Australia is at 52 per million, Singapore 19, and New Zealand 5.  A total of 27 New Zealanders have died of Covid.  Only a crazy anti-vaxxer anti-masker would say something so ridiculously stupid.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Here is Fauci this weekend and he isn't sure Xmas will be safe.
> 
> And yet we have had arenas and stadiums full of people now for months without becoming as they say super spreader events.
> 
> And despite that...he wonders if families getting together for Xmas will be OK
> 
> View attachment 11810
> 
> And here apparently pushing zero covid. Note he is unhappy if the outcome is not sick enough to need medical help. That is a zero covid mindset.
> 
> View attachment 11811
> 
> Now other countries are starting to deal with reality and moving on. At what point will the US do the same?
> 
> 
> _Meanwhile, in less insane countries with a more competent managerial class, t*hey're ending all covid restrictions and mandates*. All of them.
> 
> Norway and Indonesia have declared that covid is not a pandemic any longer, it is endemic, like the flu, and it will be with us forever,* so we cannot continue pretending these "emergency temporary lockdowns" are being made on an emergency temporary basis: lockdowns against a virus that is now with us forever like the flu would be routine and permanent.*
> 
> And Norway and Indonesia said, "No."
> 
> The governments were also very mature and honest about covid: they said that they knew, for a fact, that there would be greater outbreaks caused by their ending of restrictions and lockdowns. Indonesia said there could be an outbreak three times as large as the one they're dealing with now, and they're in the midst of a major outbreak.
> 
> *They advised citizens to keep that in mind and make sound judgments and take personal responsibility for protecting themselves.
> 
> And then they declared an end to lockdowns.*_


Does Fauci live in Santa Clara County?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I suspect strongly that your gravestone will read...
> 
> "I must have missed something"


I didn't miss the "vaccinated" part.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> No no no no.  Let me splain it to you EOTL.  Dr. Fraud is saying if you got Vaxxed twice with a third booster, you can have a normal Xmas without Christ because no liar can be with Christ.  It's like water & oil mixed with dead birds.  If you are not jabbed with the mark of the beast ((Just like Grandpa Gates BG almost pulled off)) then you can;t have Christmas with family and if you do, you need to bring a fan and open window to blow the Divoc 19 out the window.  The CDC boss lady says the vax can spread virus too so I all confused.  The Cargo ships are not moving and 1000s are sitting out in the see.  You sea, my buddie Eddie was out jet skiing this morning and he says he's never scene a seen like it befour.  Big old fat Cargo ships.  Plus, he can't go up to HB because someone decided to spill some oil.  Fake Book is down now as is Instagram.  Both of these platforms are not good for adults or the kids.  Stocks???  Bitcoin??  Grab & Go is going to be, Share & Stay


Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who similarly proclaimed their savior to be the mark of the beast.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkvmkm


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu0k5q


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pslkj4


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pe01fv

Your lord and savior has given a way to save yourself.  It is called the vaccine.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> *Herman Cain Award winners who similarly proclaimed their savior to be the mark of the beast.
> Your lord and savior has given a way to save yourself.  It is called the vaccine.*


It's Lord and Savior.  I see how you make god small in your little brain.  Oh EOTL, Jesus Is Lord


----------



## crush




----------



## Kicker4Life

As of today the recovery rate is still 98% and continues to improve.   Let’s not loose sight of the bigger picture.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> It's Lord and Savior.  I see how you make god small in your little brain.  Oh EOTL, Jesus Is Lord


Pretty much all the Herman Cain Award winners are confident that "Jesus is Lord" will save them, here are a few.  I concede that the first one was really hoping for a "system reboot" from the man himself.  It also turns out that Jesus is definitely NOT the best doctor, as many thought.  And that being "vaccinated by Jesus" is not very effective.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q02tf1


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptdned


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxj03j


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plizak


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pko0on
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pngjc2/this_is_james_he_loves_texas_republican_american/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu806x/pastor_jerry_and_his_wife_betty_are_homophobic/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pe8rv6/vaccinated_by_jesus/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/phj978/who_needs_science_when_you_have_jesus/


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> As of today the recovery rate is still *98% *and continues to improve.   Let’s not loose sight of the bigger picture.


Well, let's also not lose sight with the Pacific Ocean and the 1000s of ships blocked from bringing in important supplies.  They ((the cheaters)) already stole the election from that bad Orange Man.  Dude, this is not about no 98% nothing.  It's about the kids and the human slavery/trafficking and the liars and cheaters in this country.  You have to see the ships by your house, right?  Supply chain blocked and then communications ((Facebook and the like)) and then the food supply.  Have lot's of canned food because this might take some time.  BTW, this is not about vax or no job.  Oh no, it's much much worse.  Buckle up Kicker.......


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> As of today the recovery rate is still 98% and continues to improve.   Let’s not loose sight of the bigger picture.


Sure.  We probably have another blip from winter weather.   Not much after that unless we get another new variant.  

Probably not more than 800,000 deaths by April.  Not so bad, right?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Sure.  We probably have another blip from winter weather.   Not much after that unless we get another new variant.
> 
> Probably not more than 800,000 deaths by April.  Not so bad, right?


*Sorry, something went wrong.*
We're working on it and we'll get it fixed as soon as we can.

Go Back

Facebook © 2020 · Help Center


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Sure.  We probably have another blip from winter weather.   Not much after that unless we get another new variant.
> 
> Probably not more than 800,000 deaths by April.  Not so bad, right?


You should see if you can move to NZ. 

They have all the kinds of restrictions on liberty you crave so dearly.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Florida changed how it reports Covid deaths so that they are* now reports based on the date of death, not the date of the report.*  This particular website allows states to report based on the deaths reported on a single day, or based on the deaths when they occurred.  Because FL is going with the latter, this allows it to keep all of its recent Covid deaths "off the books" for weeks and give the falso impression to weak-minded fools like yourself that the death rate has gone to almost zero.  But when you check back in two weeks later, that 17 days average over the last 7 days will look more like 200-300.
> 
> If you look at the correct reporting like virtually every other state, you see that the number is in the 250 range over a 7 day moving average right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida Coronavirus Map and Case Count
> 
> 
> See the latest charts and maps of coronavirus cases, deaths, hospitalizations and vaccinations in Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you intentionally misleading people, or are you this stupid?


Actually,  I looked at NYT charts and it is exactly what you posted.  Lol!  Reporting deaths on the date of death?  Imagine that.  What advantage does FL gain by reporting differently if there is a 7-day MA.  How is it exactly that they are keeping deaths off the charts?


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Your lord and savior has given a way to save yourself.  It is called the vaccine.


Scientists gave us a Vaccine.  Our creator gave us an immune system.   You hinder that immune system with obesity (thus the data linking obesity to severe Covid impacts) that’s when the Scientists kick in helping those who can’t or won’t help themselves. 

Hope that clears things up for you….


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Well, let's also not lose sight with the Pacific Ocean and the 1000s of ships blocked from bringing in important supplies.  They ((the cheaters)) already stole the election from that bad Orange Man.  Dude, this is not about no 98% nothing.  It's about the kids and the human slavery/trafficking and the liars and cheaters in this country.  You have to see the ships by your house, right?  Supply chain blocked and then communications ((Facebook and the like)) and then the food supply.  Have lot's of canned food because this might take some time.  BTW, this is not about vax or no job.  Oh no, it's much much worse.  Buckle up Kicker.......
> 
> View attachment 11815
> 
> View attachment 11814


Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who share (I mean shared) your sentiment about the election being stolen.  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0ppka


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pywgwg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pujy1o


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pslqkm


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/px0wpl
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pw5ljf/jimmy_loves_guns_trump_heritage_scrubbing_covid/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptbqo7/pyramid_scheme_check_shared_every/


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Sure.  We probably have another blip from winter weather.   Not much after that unless we get another new variant.
> 
> Probably not more than 800,000 deaths by April.  Not so bad, right?


People die everyday…..It’s the only thing you can count on in life.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker4Life said:


> Scientists gave us a Vaccine.  Our creator gave us an immune system.   You hinder that immune system with obesity (thus the data linking obesity to severe Covid impacts) that’s when the Scientists kick in helping those who can’t or won’t help themselves.
> 
> Hope that clears things up for you….


Our creator probably should have told these Herman Cain Award winners that he did a shitty job creating their immune system. And their brains too....


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pz9ci9


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxziqh


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pyu0hd


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnyf2y


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnkq96
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvc42k/kansas_city_pizza_restaurant_owner_and_school/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pmceg3/repost_due_to_lack_of_redact_josh_a_nominee_from/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pys57a/a_short_little_story_about_bud_who_probably/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puaymw/thank_god_for_his_immune_system_right_scott_died/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pycrdc/a_short_little_tale_about_bart_and_his_immune/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/po9gtq/a_very_short_story_but_she_trusted_her_immune/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/przbcl/hca_winners_and_their_natural_immunity/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnqjp0/i_would_rather_take_my_chances_with_my_immune/

Seriously, there are way too many of these folks to post.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who similarly proclaimed their savior to be the mark of the beast.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkvmkm
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu0k5q
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pslkj4
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pe01fv
> 
> Your lord and savior has given a way to save yourself.  It is called the vaccine.


Amen.  But the Lord and Savior mandated immune systems.  He knew that without the immune system, clean drinking water and proper sanitation vaccines are useless without the immune system to prop it up.  Viral updates are a necessary part of the evolutionary process.  You chicken hawks think we are at war with viruses.  We are not.  You're just lazy, out of shape, and nutrition depleted.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Dark humor in the "nobody changed behavior but it went away anyway" quote.  Like sitting beside a campfire being lazy, doing nothing and going "Hey, anybody got any ideas why its not burning anymore".  But check out the change in peak to base ratio you get going from a ~R2 virus to a ~R6 virus.  So, yes, the chart says it all.


Nah, it doesn't.  I just enjoy watching stupid people make the arrogant silver bullet argument for fragile vaccines.  Especially, if you're going to shut down the economy that distributes inadequate amounts of the vaccine already.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> You should see if you can move to NZ.
> 
> They have all the kinds of restrictions on liberty you crave so dearly.


Kiwi's were socially distanced before America made it fashionable.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Our creator probably should have told these Herman Cain Award winners that he did a shitty job creating their immune system. And their brains too....
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pz9ci9
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxziqh
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pyu0hd
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnyf2y
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnkq96
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvc42k/kansas_city_pizza_restaurant_owner_and_school/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pmceg3/repost_due_to_lack_of_redact_josh_a_nominee_from/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pys57a/a_short_little_story_about_bud_who_probably/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puaymw/thank_god_for_his_immune_system_right_scott_died/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pycrdc/a_short_little_tale_about_bart_and_his_immune/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/po9gtq/a_very_short_story_but_she_trusted_her_immune/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/przbcl/hca_winners_and_their_natural_immunity/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnqjp0/i_would_rather_take_my_chances_with_my_immune/
> 
> Seriously, there are way too many of these folks to post.


Just think….that “Way too Many” represents a fraction of the 1.6% who did not survive.   If that’s “way too many” imagine the size of the list of those who survived….that’s gotta be HUGE!


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> View attachment 11816


Here are some additional HCA winners who similarly hated Fauci.  Maybe Dr. Pepper will work better than the horse paste? How many of the Fauci memes that these dead people posted on their Facebook have you also shared?


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pqalk8


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptdxwd


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pmbu66


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/prd04y


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pszria
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/prh07a/richard_thought_fauci_was_like_jim_jones_hed_know/


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker4Life said:


> Just think….that “Way too Many” represents a fraction of the 1.6% who did not survive.   If that’s “way too many” imagine the size of the list of those who survived….that’s gotta be HUGE!


It is axiomatic that all anti-vaxxers/maskers believe that Covid is no big deal and hardly anyone dies.  You could literally pick any HCA award winner.  Here are a few fun ones.  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxlaej


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pt92pp


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pf016c


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/prejcy


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ph8wyc
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pzy2sh/beardy_blue_loved_baseball_trump_and/


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> It is axiomatic that all anti-vaxxers/maskers believe that Covid is no big deal and hardly anyone dies.


Tell that to the Countries that are now classifying Covid as a Normal Flu.  

Vaccines are great for those who want or may need them. 

What’s axiomatic is that the vaccine helps and your vaccine works even if someone else doesn’t have theirs.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> It is axiomatic that all anti-vaxxers/maskers believe that Covid is no big deal and hardly anyone dies.  You could literally pick any HCA award winner.  Here are a few fun ones.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxlaej
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pt92pp
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pf016c
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/prejcy
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ph8wyc
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pzy2sh/beardy_blue_loved_baseball_trump_and/


I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


----------



## Desert Hound

I am guessing the surge has to do with the Tampa Bay variant that took hold last night.

Apparently it surpasses both the New England defense and the vaccine.









						Virus surge hits New England despite high vaccination rates
					

Despite having the highest vaccination rates in the country, there are constant reminders for most New England states of just how vicious the delta variant of COVID-19 is.  Hospitals across the region are seeing full intensive care units and staff shortages are starting to affect care.  “I think...




					uk.news.yahoo.com


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


Just like there was and is a delta variant of the covid virus, there is a EOTL variant spreading around here and it is called GoldenGate. At some point the forum will get rid of this variant as well.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Tell that to the Countries that are now classifying Covid as a Normal Flu.
> 
> Vaccines are great for those who want or may need them.
> 
> What’s axiomatic is that the vaccine helps and your vaccine works even if someone else doesn’t have theirs.


You honestly can’t think of any other possible motive for a government to claim that Covid is Normal Flu?  

Try this:    Well, we decided to take a bribe on the vaccine contract, but now it’s 8 months late and doesn’t seem to actually work.   Probably too late to buy some Moderna.   Besides, if we did, people might start asking questions about the Chinese contract we signed.  Let’s just reclassify covid and tell the country we need to move forward.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


No, what is disturbing is the glee with which many of the people here perpetuate the same stupid and mean-spirited comments and memes that these HCA winners thought were great but have contributed to so many unnecessary deaths.  How many mean-spirited anti-vax, anti-mask posts have you let go here without saying anything?  Is it all fun and games when you and your anti-vaxxer friends are "owning the libs", although doing so encourages irresponsible behavior that actually gets people killed?  

Nope, you get to see exactly what your behavior causes no matter how much you'd rather bury your head in the sand and carry on with your owning of the libs.  All these anti-vax/mask memes and shitposts are so funny when you see those making them are dead. F**king dead.  Along those lines, here's a good one.  Dumbf**k actually died leaving this profile pic behind. I means serious dumbf**k. Kids but no life insurance.  Good thing kids aren't affected by Covid, right?  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pagjqj


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You honestly can’t think of any other possible motive for a government to claim that Covid is Normal Flu?
> 
> Try this:    Well, we decided to take a bribe on the vaccine contract, but now it’s 8 months late and doesn’t seem to actually work.   Probably too late to buy some Moderna.   Besides, if we did, people might start asking questions about the Chinese contract we signed.  Let’s just reclassify covid and tell the country we need to move forward.


So that is what Norway and Denmark did? That is what the UK is doing? 

Man I must have missed those headlines. 

I get it.

It is tough watching parts of the world finally wake up to real world data and see the need to move on while you are still preaching your covid religion. 

The rest of the world will start following along soon as well and fully open up and ditch the rules that didn't work.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Just like there was and is a delta variant of the covid virus, there is a EOTL variant spreading around here and it is called GoldenGate. At some point the forum will get rid of this variant as well.


Yes, as many Herman Cain Award winners have noted, the risks associated with these variants are all a big joke.  A veritable trove of comedy until they get the vent.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plmkzg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvz20f


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pmu5y9


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pw8vlb


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pf57df


----------



## crush

This has 100% to do with the jabs, as does Jeffrey, Bill and the Cargo Ships.  The truth is coming for all to see.  My IT pal Henry told me today that this means no more fake book, like ever.  I'm not IT expert so what do I know.  All I know is that placed caused so many friends to fight over stupid stuff, like HRC losing.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> This has 100% to do with the jabs, as does Jeffrey, Bill and the Cargo Ships.  The truth is coming for all to see.  My IT pal Henry told me today that this means no more fake book, like ever.  I'm not IT expert so what do I know.  All I know is that placed caused so many friends to fight over stupid stuff, like HRC losing.
> 
> View attachment 11817


Conspiracy theories are an absolute favorite of Herman Cain Award winners.  Shoot, I did it again.  I mean "were" an absolute favorite.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pww9ra


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pot2m6


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pt6ztq


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxd96e


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plnqym
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pm91a9/drew_didnt_believe_in_vaccination_because_of_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/p6j3d6/antivaxxer_conspiracy_theorist_and_realtor_scotty/


----------



## Desert Hound

Drop this must see show in your shows to view.

I wonder what angle they take with this deep look into quite frankly one of my most cherished heroes?

On second thought I will pass on watching this little piece of propaganda.


----------



## crush

EOTL, please PM your address up north and I will make sure to send you some cool looking mypillows from my dear brethren in Christ, Mike.  Dude took some hits to the ribs and is laying low.  The Military will soon take over all the law & order.  No more cheating Golden Gate.  What college do you live by where you threaten my 15 year old dd not to attend?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> No, what is disturbing is the glee with which many of the people here perpetuate the same stupid and mean-spirited comments and memes that these HCA winners thought were great but have contributed to so many unnecessary deaths.  How many mean-spirited anti-vax, anti-mask posts have you let go here without saying anything?  Is it all fun and games when you and your anti-vaxxer friends are "owning the libs", although doing so encourages irresponsible behavior that actually gets people killed?
> 
> Nope, you get to see exactly what your behavior causes no matter how much you'd rather bury your head in the sand and carry on with your owning of the libs.  All these anti-vax/mask memes and shitposts are so funny when you see those making them are dead. F**king dead.  Along those lines, here's a good one.  Dumbf**k actually died leaving this profile pic behind. I means serious dumbf**k. Kids but no life insurance.  Good thing kids aren't affected by Covid, right?
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pagjqj


Did you get lost on your way to a 4chan/8chan meeting?  Time to recalibrate your settings on the computer at the library and start all over.  You should give Cullen Hoback a call, he'd be happy to talk to you.  

On second thought, keep going.  You are providing many with occasional entertainment.  I dont know if you are embarrased about using inapropriate language or are genuinely hesitant to use profany to get your point across.  Let me know though.  It's quite charming how you weave profanity into your thoughts.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> EOTL, please PM your address up north and I will make sure to send you some cool looking mypillows from my dear brethren in Christ, Mike.  Dude took some hits to the ribs and is laying low.  The Military will soon take over all the law & order.  No more cheating Golden Gate.  What college do you live by where you threaten my 15 year old dd not to attend?
> 
> View attachment 11819


Many Herman Cain Award winners share, er shared, support for the marginally brain addled corrupt goofball.  For example:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pykl68


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pwlx6l


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> *That's all you need or that's all you can?*  You do know that reality is constructed by your brain.  Your brain unconsciously bends your perceptions to meet  your desires and expecations.  You need a bit of yoga in your life.


Uuuuuuuummmmmmm . . . we all perceive the world through the prism of our own personal experience . . . Uuuuuuummmmmm


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Many Herman Cain Award winners share, er shared, support for the marginally brain addled corrupt goofball.  For example:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pykl68
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pwlx6l


Capitulate before it's too late dude.  Dom, EOTL entered the soul of Golden Gate and you need to send him out of here.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Uuuuuuuummmmmmm . . . we all perceive the world through the prism of our own personal experience . . . Uuuuuuummmmmm


Hey sleepy head.  What's up with all the cargo ships stuck?  How about Facebook?  Gab is on fire.  My wife is getting text asking her now for help.  The shoe is dropping......


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Capitulate before it's too late dude.  Dom, EOTL entered the soul of Golden Gate and you need to send him out of here.


But you're feeling good about the reincarnation of Sheriff Joe/Outlaw as thirteenknots, the most blatantly offensive and racist name yet.  I see. 

BTW, it is almost mandatory for Herman Cain Award winners to be racists. Is anyone really surprised.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0vw1x


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pgeno3


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn5un2


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn5tdb


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu07dz
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnxfg4/everyone_meet_derek_a_racist_antivaxxer_who_met/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pcvn1k/another_racist_jerk_dies_in_freedom/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxiji8/meet_homeri_think_he_might_have_just_taken_the/


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You seem to have picked a side.


And magnified the minuscule to help excuse and disregard the yuge elephant that trampled on the most basic of precautions.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Hey sleepy head.  What's up with all the cargo ships stuck?  How about Facebook?  Gab is on fire.  My wife is getting text asking her now for help.  The shoe is dropping......


Some Herman Cain Award winners similarly prophesized the end of the times was coming, apparently failing to grasp it was only the end for them....


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pica79


----------



## crush

All three stooges out today.  Lot's of shut downs going on today and they getting nervous.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> The U.S. way of doing things has resulted in 2200 per million dying of Covid-19.  Australia is at 52 per million, Singapore 19, and New Zealand 5.  A total of 27 New Zealanders have died of Covid.  Only a crazy anti-vaxxer anti-masker would say something so ridiculously stupid.


That’s what we are up against. A vocal minority of disingenuous fools who demand their spin be given credence.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who similarly proclaimed their savior to be the mark of the beast.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkvmkm
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu0k5q
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pslkj4
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pe01fv
> 
> Your lord and savior has given a way to save yourself.  It is called the vaccine.


“IT’S A MIRACLE!” That some are denying in the name of religious righteousness . . . when will these people realize they were duped quite possibly, within their vernacular, by the devils messenger?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker4Life said:


> Scientists gave us a Vaccine.  Our creator gave us an immune system.   You hinder that immune system with obesity (thus the data linking obesity to severe Covid impacts) that’s when the Scientists kick in helping those who can’t or won’t help themselves.
> 
> Hope that clears things up for you….


So your God’s gifts are selective and scientist are exempt?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker4Life said:


> People die everyday…..It’s the only thing you can count on in life.


So why even try, right?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


This is a way of life for misanthropic trolls.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


Live and learn . . . just comes off as tough love to me. Maybe you should pay attention.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Did you get lost on your way to a 4chan/8chan meeting?  Time to recalibrate your settings on the computer at the library and start all over.  You should give Cullen Hoback a call, he'd be happy to talk to you.
> 
> On second thought, keep going.  You are providing many with occasional entertainment.  I dont know if you are embarrased about using inapropriate language or are genuinely hesitant to use profany to get your point across.  Let me know though.  It's quite charming how you weave profanity into your thoughts.


Hurts don’t it? It’s the company you keep.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Live and learn . . . just comes off as tough love to me. Maybe you should pay attention.


I try to keep arms length from any creepy behavior regardless of what angle its coming from.  Maybe you should try it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The thread is different from this site.  The density of anti-vax and anti-mask people is just higher here.


How many people are anti-vax that post on this thread? I can think of two. They have been here for a long time. How many people don't wear masks when they are supposed to? None that I know of. Are you saying that mask policy failed due to people not believing it will do any good even though they abide by it? That's a tricky virus. Again, your message doesn't appear to be getting to the people who are ignoring mask policy.



dad4 said:


> If you remember, that was the main reason for the creation of the covid off topic area.  Someone would ask whose club could find field space, and it would turn into a 20 page diatribe full of reposted garbage from Breitbart.


Um, what does this have to do with anything I said? Since you brought it up, it appears to balance the garbage from the Three Misanthropes. I don't bother reading either. It's a choice you can make as well.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I try to keep arms length from any creepy behavior regardless of what angle its coming from.  Maybe you should try it.


I will be reminded of that when I see that you ignored thousands of posts belittling attempts to save lives only to comment against a few posts highlighting the aftermath of that line thinking. Guilt makes one try to ignore the consequences of their actions.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Hurts don’t it? It’s the company you keep.


Did you respond to the wrong post?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> No, what is disturbing is the glee with which many of the people here perpetuate the same stupid and mean-spirited comments and memes that these HCA winners thought were great but have contributed to so many unnecessary deaths.  How many mean-spirited anti-vax, anti-mask posts have you let go here without saying anything?  Is it all fun and games when you and your anti-vaxxer friends are "owning the libs", although doing so encourages irresponsible behavior that actually gets people killed?
> 
> Nope, you get to see exactly what your behavior causes no matter how much you'd rather bury your head in the sand and carry on with your owning of the libs.  All these anti-vax/mask memes and shitposts are so funny when you see those making them are dead. F**king dead.  Along those lines, here's a good one.  Dumbf**k actually died leaving this profile pic behind. I means serious dumbf**k. Kids but no life insurance.  Good thing kids aren't affected by Covid, right?
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pagjqj


Do you have life insurance?


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> Live and learn . . . just comes off as tough love to me. Maybe you should pay attention.


I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


Twelve Forgotten Principles of Public Health


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#1 Public health is about all health outcomes, not just a single disease like #COVID19. It is important to also consider harms from public health measures.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#2 Public health is about the long term rather than the short term. Spring #COVID19 #lockdowns simply delayed and postponed the pandemic to the fall. 
thelancet.com/journals/lance… @JohanGiesecke


----------



## GoldenGate

Check it out.  The kids of these anti-vaxxers can now call themselves orphans! We are so fortunate that Covid doesn't affect kids.  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q15s9n


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pljaxg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pq3u53


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjtkvr


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pqzab8

The Herman Cain Awards should create a special award for these anti-vax/mask patriots. Maybe call it the Mr. and Mrs. Oliver Twist Award?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#3 Public health is about everyone. It should not be used to shift the burden of disease from the affluent to the less affluent, as the #COVID19 #lockdowns have done.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#4 Pubic health is global. Public health scientists need to consider the global impact of their recommendations.
apnews.com/article/lifest… @lhinnant @sammednick


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#5 Risks and harms cannot be completely eliminated, but they can be reduced. Elimination and zero-COVID strategies backfire, making things worse.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#6 Public health should focus on high-risk populations. For #COVID19, many standard public health measures were never used to protect high-risk older people, leading to unnecessary deaths.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#7 While contact tracing and isolation is critically important for some infectious diseases, it is futile and counterproductive for common infections such as influenza and #COVID19. 
inference-review.com/article/on-the… @MikkoPackalen


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#8 A case is only a case if a person is sick. Mass testing asymptomatic individuals is harmful to public health.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#9 Public health is about trust. To gain the trust of the public, public health officials and the media must be honest and trust the public. Shaming and fear should never be used in a pandemic.
thehill.com/opinion/health…


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#10 Public health scientists and officials must be honest with what is not known. For example, epidemic models should be run with the whole range of plausible input parameters.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#11 In public health, open civilized debate is profoundly critical. Censoring, silencing and smearing leads to fear of speaking, herd thinking and distrust.
scientificamerican.com/article/the-co… @JeanneLenzer1


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the bad guy.  I'm not the reason any Herman Cain Award winner became an anti-vaxxer/masker.  I'm not the reason any of the anti-vax/mask memes and manifestos that they think are funny here look a lot more sad and pathetic when they're in so many dead schmucks' Facebook feeds. The only despicable people here are those who contribute to those memes misleading people all the way to their deaths.  If they're going to whoop it up on the front end, it is disrespectful of them to get upset and blame others about having to confront the consequences on the back end, or maybe we should call it the dead end.


#12 It is important for public health scientists and officials to listen to the public, who are living the public health consequences. This pandemic has proved that many non-epidemiologists understand public health better than some epidemiologists.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*THE HISTORY OF FLATH EARTHER, FEAR MONGERING FAUCI......AT IT THEN, AT IT NOW

HIS FOLLOWERS ARE HERE TODAY.  YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.*

Writing in today’s _Wall Street Journal_, John Tierney – looking back to the time when AIDS first arrived on the scene – observes about Covid-19 that



> if we had paid attention to history, we would have known that once a disease becomes newsworthy, science gets distorted by researchers, journalists, activists and politicians eager for attention and power—*and determined to silence those who challenge their fear-mongering.*


Here’s another slice from Tierney’s superb _WSJ_ essay:



> When AIDS spread among gay men and intravenous drug users four decades ago, it became conventional wisdom that the plague would soon devastate the rest of the American population. *In 1987, Oprah Winfrey opened her show by announcing, “Research studies now project that 1 in 5—listen to me, hard to believe—1 in 5 heterosexuals could be dead of AIDS in the next three years.” The prediction was outlandishly wrong, but she wasn’t wrong in attributing the scare to scientists.*





> *One early alarmist was Anthony Fauci, who made national news in 1983 with an editorial in the Journal of the American Medical Association warning that AIDS could infect even children because of “the possibility that routine close contact, as within a family household, can spread the disease.” *After criticism that he had inspired a wave of hysterical homophobia,* Dr. Fauci (who in 1984 began his current job, as director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases), promptly pivoted 180 degrees, declaring less than two months after his piece appeared that it was “absolutely preposterous” to suggest AIDS could be spread by normal social contact. But other supposed experts went on warning erroneously that AIDS could spread widely via toilet seats, mosquito bites and kissing.*





> *Robert Redfield, an Army physician who would later direct the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention during the Covid pandemic, claimed in 1985 that his research on soldiers showed AIDS would soon spread as rapidly among heterosexuals as among homosexuals.* He and other scientists became much-quoted authorities for the imminent “heterosexual breakout,” which was proclaimed on the covers of Life in 1985 (“Now No One Is Safe from AIDS”) and the Atlantic in 1987 (“Heterosexuals and AIDS: The Second Stage of the Epidemic”).





> In reality, researchers discovered early on that transmission through vaginal intercourse was rare, and that those who claimed to have been infected that way were typically concealing intravenous drug use or homosexual activity. *One major study estimated the risk of contracting AIDS during intercourse with someone outside the known risk groups was 1 in 5 million. But the CDC nonetheless started a publicity campaign warning that everyone was in danger. It mailed brochures to more than 100 million households and aired dozens of public-service announcements, like a television ad with a man proclaiming, “If I can get AIDS, anyone can.”*


----------



## Grace T.

The comparison of LA and Orange counties should be an end to the debate over how effective indoor mask mandates are....









						Were Calif. mask mandates effective vs. delta? What the data says.
					

Here is a breakdown comparing the course of the delta wave in notable California...




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The comparison of LA and Orange counties should be an end to the debate over how effective indoor mask mandates are....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were Calif. mask mandates effective vs. delta? What the data says.
> 
> 
> Here is a breakdown comparing the course of the delta wave in notable California...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


No, but you have settled the debate over whether there are any anti-mask folks on the site.

(Yes, yes.  You say are not arguing against masks, you're just arguing against mandates.   Wink, wink, and all that.)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No, but you have settled the debate over whether there are any anti-mask folks on the site.
> 
> (Yes, yes.  You say are not arguing against masks, you're just arguing against mandates.   Wink, wink, and all that.)


500k deaths.  Why would you argue for?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> No, but you have settled the debate over whether there are any anti-mask folks on the site.
> 
> (Yes, yes.  You say are not arguing against masks, you're just arguing against mandates.   Wink, wink, and all that.)


Ha! You have joined the "anti" name-calling crowd. I thought you were more nuanced. I don't think mask mandates are particularly effective in practice in the US but I wear a mask when I am required. Does that make me "anti" mask?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No, but you have settled the debate over whether there are any anti-mask folks on the site.
> 
> (Yes, yes.  You say are not arguing against masks, you're just arguing against mandates.   Wink, wink, and all that.)


It’s the mirror argument of what you are arguing about Asia…in Asia they are more culturally acclimated to them so they use them more effectively

It’s why I think they help a little on a micro basis. On a macro basis they don’t because people don’t/won’t wear them properly in situations where it actually matters: offices, construction sites, jobs with prolonged contacts; airplanes and theaters; indoor bars dining where they are just theater; private gatherings; at home with family.  Plus we use a lot of the inferior cloth masks. They probably help in situations like doctors offices stores and markets but as a percentage of cases that’s just tiny

im actually agreeing with your earlier reasoning…which is also the reason mask mandates don’t show any noticeable impact (at least in the west). And “be more Asian”, as we discussed, is not policy

if anything you should be grateful that I’m offering an explanation for why your preferred tool is not working the way you want it to


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I have to say its disturbing the glee with which you make these death posts.  I find it incredibly creepy that your so vested in proving your point that you'll revel in other peoples deaths to do so.  I might suggest you find another hobby.


You make it sound like he laughed at gravestone quotes or something...


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It’s the mirror argument of what you are arguing about Asia…in Asia they are more culturally acclimated to them so they use them more effectively
> 
> It’s why I think they help a little on a micro basis. On a macro basis they don’t because people don’t/won’t wear them properly in situations where it actually matters: offices, construction sites, jobs with prolonged contacts; airplanes and theaters; indoor bars dining where they are just theater; private gatherings; at home with family.  Plus we use a lot of the inferior cloth masks. They probably help in situations like doctors offices stores and markets but as a percentage of cases that’s just tiny
> 
> im actually agreeing with your earlier reasoning…which is also the reason mask mandates don’t show any noticeable impact (at least in the west). And “be more Asian”, as we discussed, is not policy
> 
> if anything you should be grateful that I’m offering an explanation for why your preferred tool is not working the way you want it to


Don’t wear them _*properly*_?  So, masks only work in Asia because people there are really good and bending the nose wires just right?

You used one word too many.  The problem isn’t that “people don’t wear them properly”.   The problem is that people don’t wear them.

They put the mask on at the grocery store to buy beer for their indoor party, and think they did their part because they wore a mask “when required to do so”.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Don’t wear them _*properly*_?  So, masks only work in Asia because people there are really good and bending the nose wires just right?
> 
> You used one word too many.  The problem isn’t that “people don’t wear them properly”.   The problem is that people don’t wear them.
> 
> They put the mask on at the grocery store to buy beer for their indoor party, and think they did their part because they wore a mask “when required to do so”.


Ok. That’s fine (though I’d also include the chin diapers and nose peekers) . They aren’t going to help if you are working shoulder to shoulder with someone for hours (Asians might stay home if unwell). But that’s also the only place you can police it short of going full australia. That’s one reason at least why mandates will fail (another is the cloth masks). Because the places where you police them aren’t where the overwhelming amount of transmission happens. Again you are doing morality not policy.


----------



## Desert Hound

You see dad gets stuck look at the numbers on his piece of paper and then looks around the world hoping to find something that works.

Japan and others have a variety of factors it seems that contribute to where they are vs public policy getting them there. In other words it isn't mask policy and shutting down the pub being the key driver of where they are. 

_The strongest statistically significant correlation we found was that countries in the Asia-Pacific region are more likely to have lower COVID-19 death levels. This supports a theory that has been proposed by Tatsuhiko Kodama, a professor at the University of Tokyo, that states people in Asia-Pacific countries (including Asian countries as well as Russia, Australia and New Zealand) *have some existing background immunity due to more exposure to other coronaviruses that circulate more here.*

Another *strong correlation we found was that countries with higher percentages of blood type B tend to have lower levels of COVID-19 deaths*. This is consistent with a recent finding by scientists studying blood type and COVID-19. We also found a correlation between a higher percentage of those with East Asian genes in the population and lower deaths, echoing studies that are currently looking into whether East Asians are genetically less susceptible._









						Is Japan’s low COVID-19 death rate due to a 'higher cultural level'?
					

The nation's successful management of the pandemic has become a point of pride for many Japanese.




					www.japantimes.co.jp
				




Here is a paper looking at a variety of factors, from other early vaccines to prior exposure, to masks, etc.









						(PDF) Why does Japan have so few cases of COVID19?
					

PDF | There is a lot of interest brewing as to why Japan has such low numbers of confirmed infected cases of the COVID19 disease, caused by the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> You make it sound like he laughed at gravestone quotes or something...


You're one of the reasonable people on this thread, I have a hard time believing you support his rhetoric.  He intentionally makes up people's positions so he has something to argue about and spew ad hominems.  We should call him Don Quixote since he's always "tilting at windmills".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Covid drugs & other cocktails they serve you after recent infection post J&J shot in May 2021.  My buddyʻs 10th day of quarantine is today.  He felt fine the whole time post infection.  See below for the arsenal they employed to limp the vaccine along:




Solu-medrol injection and
Rocephin 2, 1 Graham injections. 1 time.


Ivermectin tablets 10/Daily. 7 days
Monoclonal injection 1 time
NAC 1/daily. 14 days
Hydroxychloroquine 2/daily. 7 day.
Prednisone 2/daily. 7 days.
Azithromycin 1/daily. 7 days
Bayer aspirin 1/Daily 10 days (not prescription)
Zinc. 1/daily 10 days (not prescription)
Vitamin C (not prescription)
Vitamin D3 (not prescription)
Nebulizer, Ipratropium Bromide & Albuterol Sulfate 3-4/daily 7 days.
Oxygen tank for whenever I want.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Some California counties enacted strict indoor mask mandates in response to the summer wave. Others did nothing.

But when comparing counties with similar vaccination rates, we see “near-identical hospitalization outcomes despite different mask policies.”

Interestingly, San Diego County — which has a higher vaccination rate than Los Angeles and Orange counties — had a higher case rate than those two counties, but similar hospitalization figures. San Diego, Los Angeles, Orange and Ventura counties had near-identical hospitalization outcomes despite different mask policies.

https://www.sfgate.com/coronavirus/article/California-mask-mandates-delta-COVID-19-data-works-16502191.php


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> You're one of the reasonable people on this thread, I have a hard time believing you support his rhetoric.  He intentionally makes up people's positions so he has something to argue about and spew ad hominems.  We should call him Don Quixote since he's always "tilting at windmills".


Why are you having such a hard time confronting the reality that the anti-mask/vax shit posting that you think is so funny here isn't so funny when the exact same posts fill the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next? Instead, they're humiliating, pathetic and profoundly sad. You just want to pretend that there aren't actual repercussions for your irresponsible behavior. 

Here are a few of the Herman Cain Award winners who subscribed to your belief that we should ignore what "lab people" say and instead rely "on the front line."  Like you, they also ignored that virtually everyone on the front line says that the best way to avoid dying is to get vaccinated so we don't need to stuff your dumb ass with horse paste.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkfz6v


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ppm601


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puczeg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q1iwju


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pbnx7o
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pdo5y5/when_you_go_all_in_on_vitamin_d_to_fight_covid/


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> Why are you having such a hard time confronting the reality that the anti-mask/vax shit posting that you think is so funny here isn't so funny when the exact same posts fill the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next? Instead, they're humiliating, pathetic and profoundly sad. You just want to pretend that there aren't actual repercussions for your irresponsible behavior.
> 
> Here are a few of the Herman Cain Award winners who subscribed to your belief that we should ignore what "lab people" say and instead rely "on the front line."  Like you, they also ignored that virtually everyone on the front line says that the best way to avoid dying is to get vaccinated so we don't need to stuff your dumb ass with horse paste.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkfz6v
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ppm601
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puczeg
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q1iwju
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pbnx7o
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pdo5y5/when_you_go_all_in_on_vitamin_d_to_fight_covid/


It’s more comical that use use Reddit as a source for your trolling attacks……..

carry on….


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Some California counties enacted strict indoor mask mandates in response to the summer wave. Others did nothing.
> 
> But when comparing counties with similar vaccination rates, we see “near-identical hospitalization outcomes despite different mask policies.”
> 
> Interestingly, San Diego County — which has a higher vaccination rate than Los Angeles and Orange counties — had a higher case rate than those two counties, but similar hospitalization figures. San Diego, Los Angeles, Orange and Ventura counties had near-identical hospitalization outcomes despite different mask policies.
> 
> https://www.sfgate.com/coronavirus/article/California-mask-mandates-delta-COVID-19-data-works-16502191.php


Wow, Q anti-vaxxers as so desperate to find support for not wearing masks that they're citing articles that don't support going maskless and also emphasize the importance of getting vaccinated.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> You're one of the reasonable people on this thread, I have a hard time believing you support his rhetoric.  He intentionally makes up people's positions so he has something to argue about and spew ad hominems.  We should call him Don Quixote since he's always "tilting at windmills".


I was mostly just giving you a hard time as I thought it was funny.

I mean I do think the Herman Cain Award subreddit is pretty eye opening.  I think it's incredibly sad that people have taken these hardline stances and then end up suffering.  I don't laugh at it, that's for sure.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I was mostly just giving you a hard time as I thought it was funny.
> 
> I mean I do think the Herman Cain Award subreddit is pretty eye opening.  I think it's incredibly sad that people have taken these hardline stances and then end up suffering.  I don't laugh at it, that's for sure.


Gotcha now, my bad.

I'm all for Darwin principles prevailing, and I don't have a ton of sympathy for those individuals, but I find "dancing on their graves" in order to prove a point on a forum to be disturbing.

I'm pro-vax, but even if I wasn't, I would probably still get a shot for karma reasons even though I know my risks are negligible.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker4Life said:


> It’s more comical that use use Reddit as a source for your trolling attacks……..
> 
> carry on….


That's one way to pretend that your behavior isn't pathetic and getting people killed.  Of course, when legitimate news entities report on the effectiveness of vaccines, you call them the "lame stream media".  When epidemiologists support vaccines, you say you believe people "on the front lines" more than freaking vaccine experts. When you're seeing the actual posts of these dead schmucks, well, it's just Reddit. 

There is nothing and no one that will change your minds.  We have learned from the Herman Cain Awards that people like you are perfectly fine taking your stupidity and anti-vaxxer memes with you all the way to the grave.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> That's one way to pretend that your behavior isn't pathetic and getting people killed.  Of course, when legitimate news entities report on the effectiveness of vaccines, you call them the "lame stream media".  When epidemiologists support vaccines, you say you believe people "on the front lines" more than freaking vaccine experts. When you're seeing the actual posts of these dead schmucks, well, it's just Reddit.
> 
> There is nothing and no one that will change your minds.  We have learned from the Herman Cain Awards that people like you are perfectly fine taking your stupidity and anti-vaxxer memes with you all the way to the grave.


Who’s behavior?  Who’s mind? 
As you’ve always done and continuously been smacked down for is making your dumbfounded ASSumptions. Because that’s all you know and that’s how you find self value. 
Carry on…….


----------



## what-happened

Kicker4Life said:


> Who’s behavior?  Who’s mind?
> As you’ve always done and continuously been smacked down for is making your dumbfounded ASSumptions. Because that’s all you know and that’s how you find self value.
> Carry on…….


GG is a bot on a loop.   First gen AI.


----------



## met61

crush said:


> View attachment 11808


FACT CHECK: True


----------



## met61

espola said:


> I must have missed something -- what is he walking back?


...you miss a lot.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Gotcha now, my bad.
> 
> I'm all for Darwin principles prevailing, and I don't have a ton of sympathy for those individuals, but I find "dancing on their graves" in order to prove a point on a forum to be disturbing.
> 
> I'm pro-vax, but even if I wasn't, I would probably still get a shot for karma reasons even though I know my risks are negligible.


I think the primary purpose is to raise awareness -- not to dance on any graves.  It might feel like a round about way to do it, but I think it's impactful.  It tells people who might be anti-vax "Look, these people who have been part of the misinformation efforts died from this shit, it's real man".


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker4Life said:


> It’s more comical that use use Reddit as a source for your trolling attacks……..
> 
> carry on….


Well you can see he is excited to have found that thread on reddit. It apparently helps him to round out his very busy day. After all sometimes trolls like to hang out with other trolls in situations where they all like something.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I think the primary purpose is to raise awareness -- not to dance on any graves.  It might feel like a round about way to do it, but I think it's impactful.  It tells people who might be anti-vax "Look, these people who have been part of the misinformation efforts died from this shit, it's real man".


I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion based on his rhetoric.  We will have to agree to disagree .  Carry on.

I also suspect that those singled out on the Reddit thread have made a series of poor health choices, likely the least of which was not getting vaccinated.  But neither of us really know their situation.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s what we are up against. A vocal minority of disingenuous fools who demand their spin be given credence.


Translation from the flock of sheep...bah...baaah!


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion based on his rhetoric.  We will have to agree to disagree .  Carry on.
> 
> I also suspect that those singled out on the Reddit thread have made a series of poor health choices, likely the least of which was not getting vaccinated.  But neither of us really know their situation.


Oh sorry, I was referring to the subreddit itself.  I actually haven't read all of GGs posts, but I'm quite familiar with the subreddit. 

I think it's pretty safe to say that had many of these folks gotten the vaccine they would still be alive today.  That's the real rub in all of this.  Natural immunity approach with anti-vax sentiment creates an opportunity for quite a bit of collateral damage.  I really do feel bad for all those people out there that have lost love ones or suffered themselves due to them listening to grifters on social media (or heck, maybe some followed threads here).


----------



## Desert Hound

_HMM: Massachusetts coronavirus breakthrough deaths: 71% had underlying conditions, median age was 82. There have been 254 breakthrough case deaths in the state. *At this point it’s’ basically a niche disease of the elderly and infirm. It makes more sense to isolate them than to isolate the rest of us.*_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, Q anti-vaxxers as so desperate to find support for not wearing masks that they're citing articles that don't support going maskless and also emphasize the importance of getting vaccinated.


Lol! Just be grateful your maker mandated immune systems.  He knew you zealots would arrogantly ignore natural immunity.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> I think the primary purpose is to raise awareness -- not to dance on any graves.  It might feel like a round about way to do it, but I think it's impactful.  It tells people who might be anti-vax "Look, these people who have been part of the misinformation efforts died from this shit, it's real man".


... interesting take, what about those masked and vaxxed who died from it? Or, those who die from vax? Or, pre-vax the vast majority who got it and recovered? Or, the masked and vaxxed who still get it and spread it? Or, those masked and vaxxed thanks it works but are afraid of the non-vaxxed? Or, all the other contributing health conditions and choices?. 
 and on and on.

Maybe there's a lot more to this than your simplistic example.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ... interesting take, what about those masked and vaxxed who died from it? Or, those who die from vax? Or, pre-vax the vast majority who got it and recovered? Or, the masked and vaxxed who still get it and spread it? Or, those masked and vaxxed thanks it works but are afraid of the non-vaxxed? Or, all the other contributing health conditions and choices?.
> and on and on.
> 
> Maybe there's a lot more to this than your simplistic example.


You're likely part of the problem.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Overall the point is, not one singular thing equals 100% protection.  There is no Silver Bullet (not even for Influenza which has been around for Centuries).

You can roll the dice with Natural Immunity. However, if you are older, immuno-compromised, obese, etc, get the damn shot! You can roll the dice with a “vaccine”. But NEITHER are as effective without a proper diet and exercise. Even in some, rare cases, that is not enough.

I do think it’s stupid in the long run to mandate kids under 15 to get the shot (unless they fall into some of the above categories) since there is little to no risk and evolution has proven we can develop a high level of resistance to viral infections.

Since the current Admin is Mandate Happy….they should try Mandating 20 min of exercise per day and watch how many illness mortalities improve.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I think the primary purpose is to raise awareness -- not to dance on any graves.  It might feel like a round about way to do it, but I think it's impactful.  It tells people who might be anti-vax "Look, these people who have been part of the misinformation efforts died from this shit, it's real man".


Come on.  We are all parents here.  You know that if your kid makes a mistake and you let them make it (like forgetting to pack their homework), and then the teacher comes down on them, and you are there pointing at them and saying "that's what you get for not packing your homework" your kid is just going to keep doing the behavior just to spite you.  Making things even more political is not impactful.  I bet you it changes zero minds and may even make some people so resentful they do the opposite just to spite you.  Because when it comes down to it, a lot of us are just overgrown children.   There is nothing persuasive about this.

The only thing post like this do is dance on graves: it makes the original poster feel superior and smug because they are right, and the shlub idiot is wrong.  It's basically saying: "Look at the idiot...they got what's coming to them...and aren't I great for not being an idiot like that person."  It's about the poster, not the message they are trying to convey.  And it's another symptom of the smug superiority complex that seems to be rampant in society, particularly among our elites, which then you shouldn't be surprised when you get a counter reaction from people like Trump because people want to give the finger to you right back.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Come on.  We are all parents here.  You know that if your kid makes a mistake and you let them make it (like forgetting to pack their homework), and then the teacher comes down on them, and you are there pointing at them and saying "that's what you get for not packing your homework" your kid is just going to keep doing the behavior just to spite you.  Making things even more political is not impactful.  I bet you it changes zero minds and may even make some people so resentful they do the opposite just to spite you.  Because when it comes down to it, a lot of us are just overgrown children.   There is nothing persuasive about this.
> 
> The only thing post like this do is dance on graves: it makes the original poster feel superior and smug because they are right, and the shlub idiot is wrong.  It's basically saying: "Look at the idiot...they got what's coming to them...and aren't I great for not being an idiot like that person."  It's about the poster, not the message they are trying to convey.  And it's another symptom of the smug superiority complex that seems to be rampant in society, particularly among our elites, which then you shouldn't be surprised when you get a counter reaction from people like Trump because people want to give the finger to you right back.


Who are these "elites"?  Does that not include you?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Gotcha now, my bad.
> 
> I'm all for Darwin principles prevailing, and I don't have a ton of sympathy for those individuals, but I find "dancing on their graves" in order to prove a point on a forum to be disturbing.
> 
> I'm pro-vax, but even if I wasn't, I would probably still get a shot for karma reasons even though I know my risks are negligible.


I think it’s less about dancing on graves, and more about undermining the credibility of the people who currently spread anti-vax misinformation.  (Crush and Dizzy, for this thread.)

It is “look at this idiot”, but in a context of “and don’t believe the next idiot.  get your shot.”


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Who are these "elites"?  Does that not include you?


Yes...I'm an apostate.

True story here.  I never got along with the honors class in high school.  Even though my grade point average was second (the first place guy was a kid whose parents never let him watch television because they felt it would do him harm, and were very strict including never letting him go over to friends houses...they all had to go to him...and he was only allowed to listen to classical and jazz music), I didn't like them very much...I thought they were smug, elitist and arrogant...and I from time to time called them out for their superiority complex.  I was mousey and intellectual so even though I ribboned in equestrian and fencing, I wasn't considered one of the jocks either or one of the popular kids, so I fell in among the dweebs and goth types.  And they HATED me for that...the fact that I did better than all of them except the No. 1 kid only drove them more crazy about it.  For example...there was this space opera called "Roboclash" which the honors class was so in love with....I saw it...it was interesting that it was a cartoon Japanese space opera with some adults themes which was unusual for the time....but the honors class LOVED it and when they cancelled it tried to write to the station to bring it back.  I told them that was stupid because it was a syndicated show and that's now how syndicated shows work...it's based on licensing fees and viewership numbers and their stupid letters would not get it back, and BTW why y'all obsessed with a carton...you are juniors in high school surely you have something better to do.  Well, that's how it went.

Well, our class president had been class president since freshman year...a volley ball player in the honors class who was also popular.  She ran unopposed for school president senior year which left the class presidency open.  The jocks nominated someone, and the honors class got behind our No 1., our valedictorian, who ran a facts-oriented pro-administration (they had stolen some student license plates for illegal parking) pro-rule campaign and who also told people he deserved to be president because he was the best.  I persuaded my buddy, a slacker who threw some killer parties with booze when his folks were away, to run on an anti-school platform...the admin censored his campaign speech so he stood at the microphone for 2 minutes in silence.   The valedictorian tut tutted his behavior and said he was unfit for office... said the slacker would be a disaster organizing prom (which is basically what the class president did...he wasn't a disaster...prom basically organizes itself on a cookie cutter system).  Valedictorian gets booed off the stage, my friend the slacker wins, and the honors class is PISSED at me for supporting him, organizing his campaign, and running a campaign that turned the school against the establishment candidates.  They basically don't speak to me the remainder of the year.

They always hate the apostates the most.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes...I'm an apostate.
> 
> True story here.  I never got along with the honors class in high school.  Even though my grade point average was second (the first place guy was a kid whose parents never let him watch television because they felt it would do him harm, and were very strict including never letting him go over to friends houses...they all had to go to him...and he was only allowed to listen to classical and jazz music), I didn't like them very much...I thought they were smug, elitist and arrogant...and I from time to time called them out for their superiority complex.  I was mousey and intellectual so even though I ribboned in equestrian and fencing, I wasn't considered one of the jocks either or one of the popular kids, so I fell in among the dweebs and goth types.  And they HATED me for that...the fact that I did better than all of them except the No. 1 kid only drove them more crazy about it.  For example...there was this space opera called "Roboclash" which the honors class was so in love with....I saw it...it was interesting that it was a cartoon Japanese space opera with some adults themes which was unusual for the time....but the honors class LOVED it and when they cancelled it tried to write to the station to bring it back.  I told them that was stupid because it was a syndicated show and that's now how syndicated shows work...it's based on licensing fees and viewership numbers and their stupid letters would not get it back, and BTW why y'all obsessed with a carton...you are juniors in high school surely you have something better to do.  Well, that's how it went.
> 
> Well, our class president had been class president since freshman year...a volley ball player in the honors class who was also popular.  She ran unopposed for school president senior year which left the class presidency open.  The jocks nominated someone, and the honors class got behind our No 1., our valedictorian, who ran a facts-oriented pro-administration (they had stolen some student license plates for illegal parking) pro-rule campaign and who also told people he deserved to be president because he was the best.  I persuaded my buddy, a slacker who threw some killer parties with booze when his folks were away, to run on an anti-school platform...the admin censored his campaign speech so he stood at the microphone for 2 minutes in silence.   The valedictorian tut tutted his behavior and said he was unfit for office... said the slacker would be a disaster organizing prom (which is basically what the class president did...he wasn't a disaster...prom basically organizes itself on a cookie cutter system).  Valedictorian gets booed off the stage, my friend the slacker wins, and the honors class is PISSED at me for supporting him, organizing his campaign, and running a campaign that turned the school against the establishment candidates.  They basically don't speak to me the remainder of the year.
> 
> They always hate the apostates the most.


Senior year slacker for class pres is risky.   Many schools, they also organize the reunions.  Kind of a president for life position, but without the political prisoners.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I think it’s less about dancing on graves, and more about undermining the credibility of the people who currently spread anti-vax misinformation.  (*Crush and Dizzy, for this thread.*)
> 
> It is “look at this idiot”, but in a context of “and don’t believe the next idiot.  get your shot.”


Are they really spreading misinformation or do they have an opinion or have made a choice?  I certainly agree and know that there is misinformation on vaccines.  The examples are all over the place and are quite silly (magnetism, tracking chips, fetal tissue).  For the people that buy into that, well, they can't be helped.  12% of the population still refuses to be vaccinated.  No amount of morbid rhetoric is going to change that.  Kinda like telling patients that smoking will cause lung cancer and eventually kill them - normally doesn't change behavior.  And yes, cancer isn't contagious.  

I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned spoons affixed to their forehead.  Anyway, this thread has likely run its course, unlike COVID.  Pretty soon we are going to be talking about deaths amongst the vaccinated.  It's happening and it's on the rise, we just don't like to talk about it.

Everyone will continue to cherry pick data to present their side.  What's going to happen when 5-12 years become vaccinated.  Vaccines will statistically be even more effective.  Imagine that.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Senior year slacker for class pres is risky.   Many schools, they also organize the reunions.  Kind of a president for life position, but without the political prisoners.


All life can be explained by high school.

And this also explains our different world perspectives.  I'm sure you would have been happy and secure among my particular honors class.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Who are these "elites"?  Does that not include you?


The only smugness came from the poor schmucks who shit-posted their way their way to their deaths, and from the others here who supported them with their anti-mask/vax bs.  Take a stroll through any Herman Cain Award winner's FB feed. She won't do it, because she knows what she says looks very bad in the FB feeds of one dead dumbshit after the next.  Grace T. and her ilk are just upset about being confronted with the consequences of their anti-mask/vax shit-posting.  No one is dancing on graves, and how would they know anyway given they're pretending the cemeteries where they bury all the bodies don't even exist?

And how ironic of her to denigrate the "elites", when she claims to have written the uzbekistanian constitution, claims to be a "strict constructionist" legal scholar (except when the law says exactly the opposite of the result she wants), has apparently never needed a paying job in her life, and is so comfortable living off the largess of others (probably daddy and her ex), that she can just move to Utah during lockdown to indulge her child's desire to not miss any time on the pitch.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> All life can be explained by high school.
> 
> And this also explains our different world perspectives.  I'm sure you would have been happy and secure among my particular honors class.


p.s. last I heard my former buddy the slacker had made a bundle during the dot com boom...fell into some hard times with drugs and alcohol and a divorce...but has a fancy big house in your neck of the woods...I'm sure if our high school worked that way (with class presy organizing reunions), his assistant could do a bang up job.

The valedictorian had a killer midlife crisis.  Wound up spending his 20s playing with his band.  Lesson to tiger parents: don't drive em too hard...barring some killer genes and cultural restraints, the smoke stack almost always blows.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Senior year slacker for class pres is risky.   Many schools, they also organize the reunions.  Kind of a president for life position, but without the political prisoners.


The jocks surprised the cool kids who usually ran everything and nominated me for Sophomore class President (I had been the basketball manager, so I guess there was a connection).  To my surprise, I won.  I didn't do a damn thing.  I let the cool kids do whatever they wanted.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> You're one of the reasonable people on this thread, I have a hard time believing you support his rhetoric.  He intentionally makes up people's positions so he has something to argue about and spew ad hominems.  We should call him Don Quixote since he's always "tilting at windmills".


Sifting through and assessing the clues in here isn’t that difficult. Most on the right in here attempt to tacitly deny science and common sense while acting appalled that anyone would infer such a thing about them. Dad seems to have a pretty good handle on what people are trying hide behind in here . . .


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> GG is a bot on a loop.   First gen AI.


Ignoring, demonizing, belittling something doesn’t change the reality of it in reality. Only in your perception of it. Good luck with that.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Yes...I'm an apostate.
> 
> True story here.  I never got along with the honors class in high school.  Even though my grade point average was second (the first place guy was a kid whose parents never let him watch television because they felt it would do him harm, and were very strict including never letting him go over to friends houses...they all had to go to him...and he was only allowed to listen to classical and jazz music), I didn't like them very much...I thought they were smug, elitist and arrogant...and I from time to time called them out for their superiority complex.  I was mousey and intellectual so even though I ribboned in equestrian and fencing, I wasn't considered one of the jocks either or one of the popular kids, so I fell in among the dweebs and goth types.  And they HATED me for that...the fact that I did better than all of them except the No. 1 kid only drove them more crazy about it.  For example...there was this space opera called "Roboclash" which the honors class was so in love with....I saw it...it was interesting that it was a cartoon Japanese space opera with some adults themes which was unusual for the time....but the honors class LOVED it and when they cancelled it tried to write to the station to bring it back.  I told them that was stupid because it was a syndicated show and that's now how syndicated shows work...it's based on licensing fees and viewership numbers and their stupid letters would not get it back, and BTW why y'all obsessed with a carton...you are juniors in high school surely you have something better to do.  Well, that's how it went.
> 
> Well, our class president had been class president since freshman year...a volley ball player in the honors class who was also popular.  She ran unopposed for school president senior year which left the class presidency open.  The jocks nominated someone, and the honors class got behind our No 1., our valedictorian, who ran a facts-oriented pro-administration (they had stolen some student license plates for illegal parking) pro-rule campaign and who also told people he deserved to be president because he was the best.  I persuaded my buddy, a slacker who threw some killer parties with booze when his folks were away, to run on an anti-school platform...the admin censored his campaign speech so he stood at the microphone for 2 minutes in silence.   The valedictorian tut tutted his behavior and said he was unfit for office... said the slacker would be a disaster organizing prom (which is basically what the class president did...he wasn't a disaster...prom basically organizes itself on a cookie cutter system).  Valedictorian gets booed off the stage, my friend the slacker wins, and the honors class is PISSED at me for supporting him, organizing his campaign, and running a campaign that turned the school against the establishment candidates.  They basically don't speak to me the remainder of the year.
> 
> They always hate the apostates the most.


OMG. A grown woman is gloating about being second in her HS class back in the day (where she excelled in equestrian and fencing, the most egalitarian of sports) in the same post in which she is trying to explain how she's just a humble non-elitist.  And also gloating about how she helped her entitled, privileged boozing piece of shit drunk friend get elected class president over someone who actually diligently worked hard in school and sports. The lack of self awareness is off the charts.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion based on his rhetoric.  We will have to agree to disagree .  Carry on.
> 
> I also suspect that those singled out on the Reddit thread have made a series of poor health choices, likely the least of which was not getting vaccinated.  But neither of us really know their situation.


We may never know how many deaths could be attributed to the influence of these HCA recipients.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think it’s less about dancing on graves, and more about undermining the credibility of the people who currently spread anti-vax misinformation.  (Crush and Dizzy, for this thread.)
> 
> It is “look at this idiot”, but in a context of “and don’t believe the next idiot.  get your shot.”


I'm going to punt my response to Grace's post 3,739.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Vaccines will statistically be even more effective. Imagine that.


Actually they won't be statistically more effective. 

Right now 450 or so deaths in the under 17 age group that has about 70 million members. 

If vaxxes cut that to half...statistically in a group of 70 million it doesn't move the needle one bit. 

There really is not need to rush and get them vaxxed before any long term studies can be done.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Come on.  We are all parents here.  You know that if your kid makes a mistake and you let them make it (like forgetting to pack their homework), and then the teacher comes down on them, and you are there pointing at them and saying "that's what you get for not packing your homework" your kid is just going to keep doing the behavior just to spite you.  Making things even more political is not impactful.  I bet you it changes zero minds and may even make some people so resentful they do the opposite just to spite you.  Because when it comes down to it, a lot of us are just overgrown children.   There is nothing persuasive about this.
> 
> The only thing post like this do is dance on graves: it makes the original poster feel superior and smug because they are right, and the shlub idiot is wrong.  It's basically saying: "Look at the idiot...they got what's coming to them...and aren't I great for not being an idiot like that person."  It's about the poster, not the message they are trying to convey.  And it's another symptom of the smug superiority complex that seems to be rampant in society, particularly among our elites, which then you shouldn't be surprised when you get a counter reaction from people like Trump because people want to give the finger to you right back.


So you're equating kids with adults here in how they process things?  

Obviously GG's posts aren't going to do anything here given the echo chamber that exists.  But, I do think stories, like those on the subreddits, have likely convinced vax-hesitant folks to get vaccinated.  When someone folks look up to falls to this virus, it has a very real impact on them.


----------



## watfly

Let's attempt to be intellectually honest here.   Reddit posts by anonymous individuals of someone talking smack about the vaccines and then dying are no more reliable than someone posting examples about how the Democrats are running child sex trafficking rings.  In both cases they're used to spread fear and mistrust of the other side.  And please spare me the bullshit that either party is doing it out of some noble cause.  I would hope y'all are smarter than that.

Some people will believe anything.  It's their choice and their responsibility to accept the consequences.  Misinformation comes from both sides of the ledger and its your job as an adult to sort it out, not to blame someone else for your choices.  If I had listened to Fauci, I would have canceled Xmas...and then rescheduled it a day later.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> You're likely part of the problem.


...yeah, that's it...and you're the solution? LOL, ok.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I'm going to punt my response to Grace's post 3,739.


I am going to punt my response to the family and friends of all the Herman Cain Award recipient. Maybe listen to them.  Virtually every Herman Cain Award winner's feeds ends like this, even when their dumbfuck anti-vax "I'm a lion" profile pics remain.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Who are these "elites"?  Does that not include you?


...you missed it again.


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker4Life said:


> Overall the point is, not one singular thing equals 100% protection.  There is no Silver Bullet (not even for Influenza which has been around for Centuries).
> 
> You can roll the dice with Natural Immunity. However, if you are older, immuno-compromised, obese, etc, get the damn shot! You can roll the dice with a “vaccine”. But NEITHER are as effective without a proper diet and exercise. Even in some, rare cases, that is not enough.
> 
> I do think it’s stupid in the long run to mandate kids under 15 to get the shot (unless they fall into some of the above categories) since there is little to no risk and evolution has proven we can develop a high level of resistance to viral infections.
> 
> Since the current Admin is Mandate Happy….they should try Mandating 20 min of exercise per day and watch how many illness mortalities improve.


With a 36% obesity rate, we might be in trouble.  I'd postulate that the least obese areas actually have higher vaccination rates.  The people in most need of a vaccine, aren't rushing to get it.

Pretty sure in public schools PE is mandated.  

Now we just need to figure out how to regulate fast foot chains -- something I doubt many political leaders would even think about taking on.

But I hear you, would be great if everyone took better care of themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how this works. 

_*The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine,* according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				



_


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> So you're equating kids with adults here in how they process things?
> 
> Obviously GG's posts aren't going to do anything here given the echo chamber that exists.  But, I do think stories, like those on the subreddits, have likely convinced vax-hesitant folks to get vaccinated.  When someone folks look up to falls to this virus, it has a very real impact on them.


Yes, and that's the problem with leftism (conservatives have their own issues but I'm talking the issues with liberalism now).  Many adults never grow up.  You can't look at the divorce rate, the drugs and alcohol rate, the bankruptcy rate, the child abandonment rate and say hey people are the paradigms of virtue.  Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults. Liberalism often fails to acknowledge that and winds up making policy based on the assumption people are angels instead of real human beings with all the problems, biases and issues of real human beings.

There are two possible responses: paternalism (but then don't be surprised when the children rise up in rebellion against you when it gets heavy handed, as they will...Exhibit A: Donald Trump) or trust people to make their decision and to bear their own consequences.

At this point, posts like that aren't doing anything.  They are just po'ing the last of the holdouts which are mostly doing it on principle or sheer stupidity or both.  The post is just going to make the principled dig in their heels even more and isn't going to register with the stupid.


----------



## Desert Hound

_“The substantial number of infections, coupled with the increasing scientific evidence that natural immunity was durable, *led some medical observers to ask why natural immunity didn’t seem to be factored into decisions about prioritising vaccination*.”









						Vaccinating people who have had covid-19: why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?
					

The US CDC estimates that SARS-CoV-2 has infected more than 100 million Americans, and evidence is mounting that natural immunity is at least as protective as vaccination. Yet public health leadership says everyone needs the vaccine. Jennifer Block investigates  When the vaccine rollout began in...




					www.bmj.com
				



_


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Yes, and that's the problem with leftism (conservatives have their own issues but I'm talking the issues with liberalism now).  Many adults never grow up.  You can't look at the divorce rate, the drugs and alcohol rate, the bankruptcy rate, the child abandonment rate and say hey people are the paradigms of virtue.  Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults. Liberalism often fails to acknowledge that and winds up making policy based on the assumption people are angels instead of real human beings with all the problems, biases and issues of real human beings.
> 
> There are two possible responses: paternalism (but then don't be surprised when the children rise up in rebellion against you when it gets heavy handed, as they will...Exhibit A: Donald Trump) or trust people to make their decision and to bear their own consequences.
> 
> At this point, posts like that aren't doing anything.  They are just po'ing the last of the holdouts which are mostly doing it on principle or sheer stupidity or both.  The post is just going to make the principled dig in their heels even more and isn't going to register with the stupid.


I think you just made an argument for mandates unless I'm mistaken.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I think you just made an argument for mandates unless I'm mistaken.


Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate.  I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first.  I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.

But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices.  If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger.  A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots.  But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).

If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions.  Stop bluffing.  They are calling you on it.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> I am going to punt my response to the family and friends of all the Herman Cain Award recipient. Maybe listen to them.  Virtually every Herman Cain Award winner's feeds ends like this, even when their dumbfuck anti-vax "I'm a lion" profile pics remain.View attachment 11824View attachment 11825View attachment 11826View attachment 11827View attachment 11828


While the Herman Cain awards are intended to belittle dead people and not intended as a PSA, the two takeaways could be 1) its generally a good idea to get the vaccine and 2) if you don't get a vaccine don't brag about it on social media.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate.  I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first.  I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.
> 
> But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices.  If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger.  A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots.  But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).
> 
> If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions.  Stop bluffing.  They are calling you on it.


Two things we could do right now short of a mandate:

1. Recognize natural immunity.
2. Open up vaccination (particularly the J&J) to front line physicians offices and clinics.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445204998422507520


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ignoring, demonizing, belittling something doesn’t change the reality of it in reality. Only in your perception of it. Good luck with that.


I always wonder who you are talking to?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> _HMM: Massachusetts coronavirus breakthrough deaths: 71% had underlying conditions, median age was 82. There have been 254 breakthrough case deaths in the state. *At this point it’s’ basically a niche disease of the elderly and infirm. It makes more sense to isolate them than to isolate the rest of us.*_


Itʻs always been the case.  Just ask the life insurance Company Actuaries.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate.  I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first.  I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.
> 
> But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices.  If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger.  A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots.  But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).
> 
> If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions.  Stop bluffing.  They are calling you on it.


That's fine.

You just said "Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults". What does that mean in your mind? Are they capable of making sound decisions? If not, why not? How vast is this problem? 50%, 20%, 10%, etc? How would you rectify this problem for the long term?

I'm slowly figuring out the premise to many of your arguments.  I think you hone in on parameters in a given moment versus what should or could be.  So you might say "mandates don't work because of the division in the US" but you simultaneously think "yeah, everyone should just get vaccinated".  I don't think we hear enough of the second train of thought which makes it easy to put you into a particular bucket.  Of course, I could be completely wrong here.


----------



## met61

what-happened said:


> I always wonder who you are talking to?


... I'm always impressed with how technology allows him to communicate from an alternate universe.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Actually they won't be statistically more effective.
> 
> Right now 450 or so deaths in the under 17 age group that has about 70 million members.
> 
> If vaxxes cut that to half...statistically in a group of 70 million it doesn't move the needle one bit.
> 
> There really is not need to rush and get them vaxxed before any long term studies can be done.


I may not have artuculated that very well.  I was being sarcastic.  ages 5-12 are already do well with covid.  To vaccinate them means you can now add them into your numbers of people vaccinated and helps with numbers that show vaccine effectiveness in mitigating hospitalization and death.  Already happening by including 16 and up.  Smoking mirrors. .  Vaccinating them is insignificant in terms of disease management.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Two things we could do right now short of a mandate:
> 
> 1. Recognize natural immunity.
> 2. Open up vaccination (particularly the J&J) to front line physicians offices and clinics.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445204998422507520


I wonder how long before Twitter cancels her.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> That's fine.
> 
> You just said "Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults". What does that mean in your mind? Are they capable of making sound decisions? If not, why not? How vast is this problem? 50%, 20%, 10%, etc? How would you rectify this problem for the long term?
> 
> I'm slowly figuring out the premise to many of your arguments.  I think you hone in on parameters in a given moment versus what should or could be.  So you might say "mandates don't work because of the division in the US" but you simultaneously think "yeah, everyone should just get vaccinated".  I don't think we hear enough of the second train of thought which makes it easy to put you into a particular bucket.  Of course, I could be completely wrong here.


Because part of the problem is you want to put me "into a particular bucket".  I'm an independent thinker that follows logic where it leads me (which early on led me to po the "COVID is flu" people, and then the "masks are better than vaccines" people).  I'm neither a lib or a con and to the extent you can label me politically it's a Tulsi-loving, Sinema-supporting, Romney-hating libertarian.

The adult number isn't fixed and actually varies from issue to issue, but I think the non-adult % is pretty high.  Again, that leaves you with a choice: paternalism or let people make their own decisions.  I think in the Republic we have (assuming we are going to keep it), you have to let people make their own decisions....even if they make bad choices.  Vaccines are a little bit different because there are externalities involved but in this case the externalities (if vaccinated people can still transmit) aren't overwhelming in one direction, which makes the issue of a mandate a bit of a toss up (assuming you exclude the naturally immune, children, don't underclass people).


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Actually they won't be statistically more effective.
> 
> Right now 450 or so deaths in the under 17 age group that has about 70 million members.
> 
> If vaxxes cut that to half...statistically in a group of 70 million it doesn't move the needle one bit.
> 
> *There really is not need to rush and get them vaxxed before any long term studies can be done.*


The train has left the station.  Parents are knocking down doors to get their kids vaccinated.  The doors will fly open once the FDA approval comes through, which is likely going to happen very soon. Parents are not going to wait for any type of long term studies.  FDA clearance technically has already cleared the path for off label Pfizer vaccination for those under 12.  Most prescribers will likley not vaccinate for ethical reasons but they can if they want. 

Right, wrong, or indifferent, under 12 vaccines are coming and many will gladly have their kids vaccinated.  Mandates will make it very difficult for parents to have a choice, especially in public school districts.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how this works.
> 
> _*The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine,* according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


The natural immunity can only be acquired by first having the disease.  That course of behavior has considerably more risk of severe consequences and death than taking the vaccine.

But I repeat myself.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm an independent thinker that follows logic where it leads me


That's pretty funny.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's pretty funny.


Says the "conservative"


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The natural immunity can only be acquired by first having the disease.  That course of behavior has considerably more risk of severe consequences and death than taking the vaccine.
> 
> But I repeat myself.


To take a line out of your book..."I'm missing something", who proposed that it was better to go out and get the virus then to get the vaccination?  I'm fairly confident that no one on this forum has made that recommendation.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Says the "conservative"


Twisting my words doesn't help your position.  But since it is apparently all you have, better stick with that.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Twisting my words doesn't help your position.  But since it is apparently all you have, better stick with that.


Says the twister in chief.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I may not have artuculated that very well.  I was being sarcastic.  ages 5-12 are already do well with covid.  To vaccinate them means you can now add them into your numbers of people vaccinated and helps with numbers that show vaccine effectiveness in mitigating hospitalization and death.  Already happening by including 16 and up.  Smoking mirrors. .  Vaccinating them is insignificant in terms of disease management.


Not insignificant.

You're trying to get to 90%, without infecting the immunocompromised.

If everyone under 16 is unvaccinated, then you top out near 80%, even if everyone over 16 gets the jab.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not insignificant.
> 
> You're trying to get to 90%, without infecting the immunocompromised.
> 
> If everyone under 16 is unvaccinated, then you top out near 80%, even if everyone over 16 gets the jab.


Assuming, of course, you are going to completely ignore the naturally immune.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Assuming, of course, you are going to completely ignore the naturally immune.


Even then.  If you have enough covid circulating to infect most 0-15 year olds, you also infect most immune compromised people.

Remember the goal was to get herd immunity *without* infecting the vulnerable.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The natural immunity can only be acquired by first having the disease. That course of behavior has considerably more risk of severe consequences and death than taking the vaccine.


Not for most people. Most people have very low risk profiles. 

This is a disease that affects the old with health issues and others with severe health issues. 

The typical person has very little risk. Go look at the CDC data and look at the IFR per age group. The info is there.

That isnt an argument not to get vaxxed. It is just pointing out the obvious that the vast vast majority of people are not at risk of this virus when they are unvaxxed or vaxxed.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Even then.  If you have enough covid circulating to infect most 0-15 year olds, you also infect most immune compromised people.
> 
> Remember the goal was to get herd immunity *without* infecting the vulnerable.


And what would that matter if the Immune compromised/vulnerable have had the Vaccine?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not insignificant.
> 
> *You're trying to get to 90%, without infecting the immunocompromised.*
> 
> If everyone under 16 is unvaccinated, then you top out near 80%, even if everyone over 16 gets the jab.


Completely insignificant, especially from a disease treatment and management perspective. 

From a medical standpoint, this is foolishness.  The immunecompromised  should already be vaccinated and are eligible for boosters.  To vaccinate a low risk population to protect them is wastefull and some will claim unethical. We already know vaccinated people spread the disease and die from breakthrough infections.  Maybe test and put a mask on little johnny/sally when they go visit their immune comprimised family member who's been super boosted.  There are plenty of ways to ethically protect the immunecomprimised.  

Makes zero sense.  But don't worry, you'll get your wish soon enough.  The doors will open and parents will rush their healthy kids to get vaccinated in time for Christmas.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how this works.
> 
> _*The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine,* according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


This is the same study that has been posted here repeatedly, probably without people realizing it is the same one.  Again, the entire conclusion rests on how ~260 cases bin between cohorts that number ~65000 each.  In both cohorts, doubled vaxxed and previously infected, the central observation is that second infections are rare.  Given that the events of interest (ie secondary infection) are very small, there are statistical issues and cohort matching issues associated with the study. These problems are touched upon at some length by various people posting within the comments section of the preprint server on which the study is posted.  As of last week, the paper still remains under review.  Given the length of time that has passed, it is possible that that the authors have been asked to provide extensive additional documentation, or to demonstrate that their findings actually have predictive value in a larger, random sampling.  

That Science chose to highlight this study-as a preprint-is I think unfortunate, and an example of how the scientific community and journal editors need to adopt more rigorous best practices to ensure studies like this are not misappropriated.  The immunologist quoted in the Science highlight (the one who says "don't try this home") is a leading figure in the field and, at the time this preprint was posted, was about to have a big paper coming out showing how the the clean up on aisle 5 that results from the massive cell lysis associated with viral infection stimulates formation of cellular structures that can then become super-primed by subsequent vaccination.  So they were sort of interested in this type of synergy between infection and vaccination and I think that is why Science decided to highlight it.  I was bothered by the cavalier attitude at Science and wrote the editor with like "do you realize what you are messing with".  The response was largely, well, if the numbers don't hold up then it doesn't matter. But that's wrong.  For this study it is now too late for whether the numbers are right.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Says the twister in chief.


My position is, and always has been, that my politics would have been considered to be conservative before that term was stolen by politicians as cover for hate, fear, and greed.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Even then.  If you have enough covid circulating to infect most 0-15 year olds, you also infect most immune compromised people.
> 
> Remember the goal was to get herd immunity *without* infecting the vulnerable.


Vaccination ---immune comprimsed....Boosters ---- immune comprised.  

0-12, low risk, why vaccinate?  Herd immunity went buh bye with Delta.  It's like starting all over again.  Amazing what a novel virus is capable of.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> ​
> Meanwhile, courtesy of worldometers -dot- info, let's check back in with Florida. The drop in COVID deaths there has been extremely sudden and sharp, even though the general public has not modified its behavior at all. (I live here, so I know.)
> 
> The chart says it all:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> *As a friend of mine puts it, thank goodness we can be sure the media will get right to the bottom of this!*


Hey dumbshit, I checked back in at worldometers like you recommended.  The 7-day moving average for Oct 2 has already doubled in a single day. It turns out there has been no sudden decrease in FL Covid deaths.  The only reason it was at 17 yesterday and not 34 as it is today (and will probably be 200+ in a week) is because FL holds back the info for weeks.  It will be fascinating to shove this up your ass every day as the 7-day moving average for Oct 2 steadily increases "retroactively" as FL eventually reports all the actual deaths that it now reports "retroactively".  You are exactly why FL changed how it reports Covid deaths, which is to dupe dumbfucks like yourself.  They know you are easily misled by the daily reporting and are too stupid to understand what they are doing or go back later and look at the actual numbers after they've stopped withholding that information.


----------



## GoldenGate

Let's check out how great FL is doing anecdotally...


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkm9y2


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pj755d


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu93eg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptda19


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pc5v31


----------



## Grace T.

French study on the impact of masks on the very young....









						Les effets du port du masque sur les jeunes enfants en lieux d’accueil collectif
					

Au mois de décembre, nous avions diffusé un questionnaire sur l’impact du masque sur les jeunes enfants. Destiné à tous les professionnels de la petite enfance, il a été conçu par Anna Tcherkassof, chercheure en psychologie sociale sur la communication émotionnelle non verbale, au laboratoire...




					lesprosdelapetiteenfance.fr


----------



## Grace T.

More and more people are living alone and not in families.....

That, in conjunction with who has political power, is an explanation for why we were so willing to throw children under the bus during the pandemic....









						Living alone and falling behind
					

As the family continues to fall apart, a growing segment of the population is poorer and lonelier than they were 30 years ago, according to a new paper published by the Pew Research Center on Tuesday.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Not insignificant.
> 
> You're trying to get to 90%, without infecting the immunocompromised.
> 
> If everyone under 16 is unvaccinated, then you top out near 80%, even if everyone over 16 gets the jab.


Are you counting the under 16 who've contracted Covid and have natural immunity as unvaccinated?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> My position is, and always has been, that my politics would have been considered to be conservative before that term was stolen by politicians as cover for hate, fear, and greed.


...so you willingly usher in a guy who clearly has dementia... that's a hell of a high road.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Assuming, of course, you are going to completely ignore the naturally immune.


100% of those who do not die from Covid-19 do not die from Covid-19.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> 100% of those who do not die from Covid-19 do not die from Covid-19.


Over 98% of people who contract Covid, survive Covid (that number is significantly higher if you are under 65 and/or if you are NOT Clinically obese).


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> Are you counting the under 16 who've contracted Covid and have natural immunity as unvaccinated?


Didn't want to go that far into the weeds on the post.

Add in past infections, then subtract out any transmission from breakthrough infections. 

It's really hard to reach herd immunity for Delta without vaccinating 5-11 year olds.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> subtract out any transmission from breakthrough infections.


Isn't that really though the key number? If the handful of studies touching upon the issue are right and immunity breaks through more readily with time, and since we are not mandating the boosters (and if we did we don't yet know if it confers longer last immunity), isn't that the key question?  If it drops say to 40% (and anecdotally we are hearing about a lot of breakthroughs in the news....much more so than if the 10%-20% the pharma companies are saying would support), isn't herd immunity pretty much very hard to get to without everyone getting potentially longer lasting natural immunity?

And if natural immunity doesn't last, isn't the herd immunity number just pretty much impossible to reach?

Aren't those the $1,000,000 questions for how this ends?


----------



## Desert Hound

Perspective is important. Watching the press and listening to politicians one would assume covid is a threat to all.

What does the data actually show?

Well start with the 29 and under crowd.

That group makes up...
38.7% of our population and account for 1% off all deaths.

Read that number again when people talk about the need to vaxx kids.

When we look at 49 and under that group makes up...
64.5% of the population and accounts for 6% of all deaths.

Factor in the next age group and we get to...
83.7% of the population and accounts for 22.2% of all deaths.

 We run around and pretend everyone is at equal risk. That is entirely not the case.

In the above groups almost all those deaths have occurred in individuals with on average 3-4 other serious health affects. 

The disease doesn't strike down the healthy or even those in so so shape. 

Public policy should reflect the data at hand, not the emotional needs of people who are needlessly scared.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> *Public policy should reflect the data at hand, not the emotional needs of people who are needlessly scared.*


600 million doses and $9.65B is policy incentive.  Data sometimes plays second fiddle to corporate profits.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

These are the number of deaths nationwide of children since Covid began. Applying the risk adverse policies of vaccine mandates to children dying of drownings and car accidents tells me we should outlaw any water deeper than 6” and no child may ride in a car. This is the nonsense that makes it impossible to trust any politician or school board trying to force this on parents and their children.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> I may not have artuculated that very well.  I was being sarcastic.  ages 5-12 are already do well with covid.  To vaccinate them means you can now add them into your numbers of people vaccinated and helps with numbers that show vaccine effectiveness in mitigating hospitalization and death.  Already happening by including 16 and up.  Smoking mirrors. .  Vaccinating them is insignificant in terms of disease management.


“Smoking mirrors”? You need an intervention.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> I always wonder who you are talking to?


Sounds about right.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> View attachment 11833
> These are the number of deaths nationwide of children since Covid began. Applying the risk adverse policies of vaccine mandates to children dying of drownings and car accidents tells me we should outlaw any water deeper than 6” and no child may ride in a car. This is the nonsense that makes it impossible to trust any politician or school board trying to force this on parents and their children.


And the people the children come in contact with? This is like a broken record . . . and further you must feel why should we try?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the people the children come in contact with? This is like a broken record . . . and further you must feel why should we try?


Isn’t that what your vaccine is for…or you seem to be saying that the vaccines don’t actually work?


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the people the children come in contact with?


What about them?  If you’re vaccinated your good, right?  If your not, that’s on you and if your of average health, your chances are over 98%


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Isn’t that what your vaccine is for…or you seem to be saying that the vaccines don’t actually work?


In the real world your wish for an all or nothing choice isn’t viable.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker4Life said:


> What about them?  If you’re vaccinated your good, right?  If your not, that’s on you and if your of average health, your chances are over 98%


Grammar and syntax aside, your assessment is flawed, but of course you know that already, or should.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> Grammar and syntax aside, your assessment is flawed, but of course you know that already, or should.


How?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> How?


You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.

Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.

(not everyone is of average health)


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.
> 
> (not everyone is of average health)


Sounds like they should be isolated and protected.  Not the other way around.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Hey dumbshit, I checked back in at worldometers like you recommended.  The 7-day moving average for Oct 2 has already doubled in a single day. It turns out there has been no sudden decrease in FL Covid deaths.  The only reason it was at 17 yesterday and not 34 as it is today (and will probably be 200+ in a week) is because FL holds back the info for weeks.  It will be fascinating to shove this up your ass every day as the 7-day moving average for Oct 2 steadily increases "retroactively" as FL eventually reports all the actual deaths that it now reports "retroactively".  You are exactly why FL changed how it reports Covid deaths, which is to dupe dumbfucks like yourself.  They know you are easily misled by the daily reporting and are too stupid to understand what they are doing or go back later and look at the actual numbers after they've stopped withholding that information.
> 
> View attachment 11829


Lol!  See that thing on the end of the chart that looks like a tin foil hat?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the real world your wish for an all or nothing choice isn’t viable.


errr…logical fallacy. It’s not all or nothing. It’s either something works or it doesn’t. Of course you have to meet the parameters of what “works” mean but by definition it either hits those parameters or it doesn’t.

the issue on your end is you’ve tried every justification but none of them quiet work…so you guys keep throwing up something else:
-to protect the refusers (but they made their choice and assumed the risk)
-to protect the unvaxxed children (but their risk of death, hospitalization or long covid is less than a vaxxed 50 year old)
-to reach herd immunity (but there are breakthroughs and the vaccine immunity might decline with time…if so herd immunity might not be possible without natural immunity or it might not be possible at all)
-to protect the hospitals (but that doesn’t explain why you’d keep restrictions and mandates in places with low spread)
-to protect the elderly and immunocompromised (but you got their boosters and with breakthroughs it’s never gonna be 100%)

if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission you guys can’t articulate any off ramp other than a vague hope that we might hit herd Immunity,stay there and not have any more variants.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.
> 
> (not everyone is of average health)


a. Same issue for them with flu and rsv
b. They can still be infected by breakthroughs
c. You are placing all your marbles on the assumption that herd immunity can be reached despite that we don’t know the real breakthrough rate, if the breakthrough numbers increase with time, and if we can do anything about that, and that there will be no more variants


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.
> 
> (not everyone is of average health)


Vaccines are not the only way to treat an infection.  You people are the ones ignoring those who canʻt be vaxxed or are immuno compromised by treating vaccines as the only solution.  There are a lot of other therapies that can and are being used to treat folks.  I posted a list of stuff this mornʻ that worked just fine for my J&J vaxed friend who is in his 10th day of quarantine today after corona broke through his May vaccination.  Both his wifeʻs parents, near 90,  got covid pre-vax, and survived on a bunch of therapies combined.  They are both vaxed now but they know they arenʻt relying only on the vax to get them past a break-through infection.  They will heavily augment their vaccination with proven therapies.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Didn't want to go that far into the weeds on the post.
> 
> Add in past infections, then subtract out any transmission from breakthrough infections.
> 
> It's really hard to reach herd immunity for Delta without vaccinating 5-11 year olds.


Golden Gate speak.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> errr…logical fallacy. It’s not all or nothing. It’s either something works or it doesn’t. Of course you have to meet the parameters of what “works” mean but by definition it either hits those parameters or it doesn’t.
> 
> the issue on your end is you’ve tried every justification but none of them quiet work…so you guys keep throwing up something else:
> -to protect the refusers (but they made their choice and assumed the risk)
> -to protect the unvaxxed children (but their risk of death, hospitalization or long covid is less than a vaxxed 50 year old)
> -to reach herd immunity (but there are breakthroughs and the vaccine immunity might decline with time…if so herd immunity might not be possible without natural immunity or it might not be possible at all)
> -to protect the hospitals (but that doesn’t explain why you’d keep restrictions and mandates in places with low spread)
> -to protect the elderly and immunocompromised (but you got their boosters and with breakthroughs it’s never gonna be 100%)
> 
> if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission you guys can’t articulate any off ramp other than a vague hope that we might hit herd Immunity,stay there and not have any more variants.


What do you mean “something works or it doesn’t”?

Can you honestly not think of anything in the world which is only partly efffective?  Mousetraps.  Anti-lock brakes.  Weather forecasts.   Does this mean they are all useless?

You love your false dichotomy fallacy so much, you are insulting others for not copying it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> What do you mean “something works or it doesn’t”?
> 
> Can you honestly not think of anything in the world which is only partly efffective?  Mousetraps.  Anti-lock brakes.  Weather forecasts.   Does this mean they are all useless?
> 
> You love your false dichotomy fallacy so much, you are insulting others for not copying it.


Great argument for no mandates.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What do you mean “something works or it doesn’t”?
> 
> Can you honestly not think of anything in the world which is only partly efffective?  Mousetraps.  Anti-lock brakes.  Weather forecasts.   Does this mean they are all useless?
> 
> You love your false dichotomy fallacy so much, you are insulting others for not copying it.


Your reading comprehension is always so much weaker than your math.

I said you have to define what”work” means. It either meets the standard or it doesn’t.  But it’s up to you to lay out that standard (which the complaint recently is that it shifted majorly with the arrival of the delta). We went from vaccines 95% effective at stopping transmission and it would be over by June to now we don’t really know (which is why you are back on masks on the vaccinated)

And having been caught in a thunderstorm which unexpectedly wiped out goalkeeper practice and team practices Monday, I don’t think most people would say weather forecasts “work” but again it depends on the definition.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> errr…logical fallacy. It’s not all or nothing. It’s either something works or it doesn’t. Of course you have to meet the parameters of what “works” mean but by definition it either hits those parameters or it doesn’t.
> 
> the issue on your end is you’ve tried every justification but none of them quiet work…so you guys keep throwing up something else:
> -to protect the refusers (but they made their choice and assumed the risk)
> -to protect the unvaxxed children (but their risk of death, hospitalization or long covid is less than a vaxxed 50 year old)
> -to reach herd immunity (but there are breakthroughs and the vaccine immunity might decline with time…if so herd immunity might not be possible without natural immunity or it might not be possible at all)
> -to protect the hospitals (but that doesn’t explain why you’d keep restrictions and mandates in places with low spread)
> -to protect the elderly and immunocompromised (but you got their boosters and with breakthroughs it’s never gonna be 100%)
> 
> if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission you guys can’t articulate any off ramp other than a vague hope that we might hit herd Immunity,stay there and not have any more variants.


"It’s not all or nothing. It’s either something works or it doesn’t."

That's an interesting string of words.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the people the children come in contact with? This is like a broken record . . . and further you must feel why should we try?


you mean like adults who are vaccinated?  and boosted?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.
> 
> (not everyone is of average health)


Who can't be vaccinated?  Even people with  DiGeorge syndrome and Wiskott-Aldrich syndrome are getting vaccines and likely first in line for boosters.  You act as if people who are severely immune comprimised are out walking around elementary schools with not a care in the world.  Stick to you stats and stay away from medicine. 

I'm sure if you hopped on the CDC website, it would explain all of this.  At a minimum, the CDC website does  a good job of providing the average person easy to read information. 

Vaccinating a healthy population with low to zero risk is foolish and a waste of time.  But don't you worry, you'll soon get your wish.  Tee up the fear campaign and parents will line up to vaccinate their healthy children under 12.  It's unfortunate.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Smoking mirrors”? You need an intervention.


I'm all for interventions as long as you promise to provide substance.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You are ignoring the people who cannot be vaccinated.
> 
> Think severely compromised immune systems.  People who for some reason just are not good at antibody creation.
> 
> (not everyone is of average health)


You don't make policy based on the exception to the rule. 

You are always what about those that cannot be vaxxed? They make up a tiny percentage of the population. 

One does not mandate kids be vaxxed, vaxx passports, etc etc like you want to deal with the exception to the rule (those that cannot get vaxxed).

That seems to escape you. 

It also seems to escape you that the following is true. 

-This thing is or will be endemic. One cannot go on for years and years worrying about the exception to the rule per say. 
- If someone is vaxxed who cares about the non vaxxed. That is what your vaxx is for. 
- If you look at the chart above with our without a vaxx the majority of people have no real risk
- And finally they keep coming out with better and better treatments for people falling ill.


----------



## Desert Hound

The other thing that escapes dad is that this is over.

When that over is still has yet to be decided.

The public will not stand for more closures, are tired of masks, etc.

Slowly but surely we are seeing other countries throw in the towel and say it is endemic and time to move on.

We are seeing ballparks and stadiums full of people and no associated spikes. People are moving on. It will take our "leaders" a bit longer to.

dad has lost the war in respect to what he wants to be done. He and others just don't realize it yet.

Like the adage goes, things that can’t continue, won’t.


----------



## Grace T.

Scandinavians curb Moderna shots for some younger patients
					

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Scandinavian authorities on Wednesday suspended or discouraged the use of Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine in young people because of an increased risk of heart inflammation, a very rare side effect associated with the shot.




					apnews.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Scandinavians curb Moderna shots for some younger patients
> 
> 
> COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Scandinavian authorities on Wednesday suspended or discouraged the use of Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine in young people because of an increased risk of heart inflammation, a very rare side effect associated with the shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


So the pandemic is having the effect of delaying cancer screening until it is too late AND creating heart problems.  Shocking!!  The two top causes of death getting help from COVID and the vaccines as COVID deaths hitch a ride.  The masses are too scared and too dumb to look at the Science.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> I'm all for interventions as long as you promise to provide substance.


Interventions are a euphemism for Socialism.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> Who can't be vaccinated?  Even people with  DiGeorge syndrome and Wiskott-Aldrich syndrome are getting vaccines and likely first in line for boosters.  You act as if people who are severely immune comprimised are out walking around elementary schools with not a care in the world.  Stick to you stats and stay away from medicine.
> 
> I'm sure if you hopped on the CDC website, it would explain all of this.  At a minimum, the CDC website does  a good job of providing the average person easy to read information.
> 
> Vaccinating a healthy population with low to zero risk is foolish and a waste of time.  But don't you worry, you'll soon get your wish.  Tee up the fear campaign and parents will line up to vaccinate their healthy children under 12.  It's unfortunate.


Dad et al enjoy worse case scenarios.  Doom and gloom perpetuates their incessant elevation of "moral posturing over truth".


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Your reading comprehension is always so much weaker than your math.
> 
> I said you have to define what”work” means. It either meets the standard or it doesn’t.  But it’s up to you to lay out that standard (which the complaint recently is that it shifted majorly with the arrival of the delta). We went from vaccines 95% effective at stopping transmission and it would be over by June to now we don’t really know (which is why you are back on masks on the vaccinated)
> 
> And having been caught in a thunderstorm which unexpectedly wiped out goalkeeper practice and team practices Monday, I don’t think most people would say weather forecasts “work” but again it depends on the definition.


You seem to be assuming that, once you define “work”, your definition is automatically meaningful. 

You can define “work” to mean 95.0 or better.  Does that mean a 95.1 is great and a 94.5 is worthless, just because you chose 95.0 as your definition?  Of course not.  

It gets worse.  Suppose I choose 90.0, and Tony chooses 98.  Now both work, neither one works, and exactly one of them works.  All three statements are equally true, despite being completely inconsistent.

If you want to define a new concept, then invent a new word for it.   The old words already have definitions, and I find them useful.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> All three statements are equally true, despite being completely inconsistent.


Rashomon.

If we disagree on what is meant by "work" we can't have a reliable discussion on what we mean. We are essentially talking passed each other.  Definitions are everything.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Even then.  If you have enough covid circulating to infect most 0-15 year olds, you also infect most immune compromised people.
> 
> Remember the goal was to get herd immunity *without* infecting the vulnerable.


Wonder if the Corona virus knew about those stated goals for the immuno-comp'd.  I'd say that after 55 million years, one of Corona's goals was to make it on to the most wanted list of the Lysol wipes container and spray can.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Rashomon.
> 
> If we disagree on what is meant by "work" we can't have a reliable discussion on what we mean. We are essentially talking passed each other.  Definitions are everything.


Interesting that despite the vaccine we are on track for a worse year than last.









						US reports highest weekly COVID-19 vaccinations since July 4
					

The United States has been facing a COVID-19 surge as the more contagious delta variant continues to spread.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Interesting that despite the vaccine we are on track for a worse year than last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US reports highest weekly COVID-19 vaccinations since July 4
> 
> 
> The United States has been facing a COVID-19 surge as the more contagious delta variant continues to spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


I thought Biden said he was going to fix the problem? 

Damn. 

I guess the virus will do what it will.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> You don't make policy based on the exception to the rule.
> 
> You are always what about those that cannot be vaxxed? They make up a tiny percentage of the population.
> 
> One does not mandate kids be vaxxed, vaxx passports, etc etc like you want to deal with the exception to the rule (those that cannot get vaxxed).
> 
> That seems to escape you.
> 
> It also seems to escape you that the following is true.
> 
> -This thing is or will be endemic. One cannot go on for years and years worrying about the exception to the rule per say.
> - If someone is vaxxed who cares about the non vaxxed. That is what your vaxx is for.
> - If you look at the chart above with our without a vaxx the majority of people have no real risk
> - And finally they keep coming out with better and better treatments for people falling ill.


One of the most troubling aspects to me has been the burden of proof requirements during this pandemic.   The burden of proof should be on the ones that want to change the policy or have mandates.  That hasn't happened.  The burden of proof has been switched to the status quo having to prove that a policy won't work or is misguided.  I believe this is a dangerous precedent.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> One of the most troubling aspects to me has been the burden of proof requirements during this pandemic.   The burden of proof should be on the ones that want to change the policy or have mandates.  That hasn't happened.  The burden of proof has been switched to the status quo having to prove that a policy won't work or is misguided.  I believe this is a dangerous precedent.


The above statement is spot on. 

We have turned things on their head so to speak.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> What do you mean “something works or it doesn’t”?
> 
> Can you honestly not think of anything in the world which is only partly efffective?  Mousetraps.  Anti-lock brakes.  Weather forecasts.   Does this mean they are all useless?
> 
> You love your false dichotomy fallacy so much, you are insulting others for not copying it.


Masks


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Let's check out how great FL is doing anecdotally...
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkm9y2
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pj755d
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu93eg
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptda19
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pc5v31



What's that, like 4 people?  Do you have their PCR results and death certs for us to verify?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Masks


One more thing which works halfway.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> More and more people are living alone and not in families.....
> 
> That, in conjunction with who has political power, is an explanation for why we were so willing to throw children under the bus during the pandemic....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Living alone and falling behind
> 
> 
> As the family continues to fall apart, a growing segment of the population is poorer and lonelier than they were 30 years ago, according to a new paper published by the Pew Research Center on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


The tyranny of tiny risk.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> One of the most troubling aspects to me has been the burden of proof requirements during this pandemic.   The burden of proof should be on the ones that want to change the policy or have mandates.  That hasn't happened.  The burden of proof has been switched to the status quo having to prove that a policy won't work or is misguided.  I believe this is a dangerous precedent.


All while taking away peoples rights to due process.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> All while taking away peoples rights to due process.


Look at the the clapping seals when talking about people losing their jobs because they dont want to get the jab.

They like the idea of taking away rights.


----------



## Grace T.

They don't really believe in masks.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445779596733935619


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is the same study that has been posted here repeatedly, probably without people realizing it is the same one.  Again, the entire conclusion rests on how ~260 cases bin between cohorts that number ~65000 each.  In both cohorts, doubled vaxxed and previously infected, the central observation is that second infections are rare.  Given that the events of interest (ie secondary infection) are very small, there are statistical issues and cohort matching issues associated with the study. These problems are touched upon at some length by various people posting within the comments section of the preprint server on which the study is posted.  As of last week, the paper still remains under review.  Given the length of time that has passed, it is possible that that the authors have been asked to provide extensive additional documentation, or to demonstrate that their findings actually have predictive value in a larger, random sampling.
> 
> That Science chose to highlight this study-as a preprint-is I think unfortunate, and an example of how the scientific community and journal editors need to adopt more rigorous best practices to ensure studies like this are not misappropriated.  The immunologist quoted in the Science highlight (the one who says "don't try this home") is a leading figure in the field and, at the time this preprint was posted, was about to have a big paper coming out showing how the the clean up on aisle 5 that results from the massive cell lysis associated with viral infection stimulates formation of cellular structures that can then become super-primed by subsequent vaccination.  So they were sort of interested in this type of synergy between infection and vaccination and I think that is why Science decided to highlight it.  I was bothered by the cavalier attitude at Science and wrote the editor with like "do you realize what you are messing with".  The response was largely, well, if the numbers don't hold up then it doesn't matter. But that's wrong.  For this study it is now too late for whether the numbers are right.


*“What we don’t want people to say is: ‘All right, I should go out and get infected, I should have an infection party,’”* says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at Rockefeller University who researches the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 and was not involved in the study. “Because somebody could die.”

Barry was like screw that!  I'm gonna have me a damn pah-tay!!


----------



## Grace T.

Did Political and Media Bias Stall the Release of Merck's New Covid-19 Drug?
					

Former HHS officials say they tried to accelerate funding for what became Merck's new "miracle" drug last year, but were blocked. How culture-war stupidity may have cost "tens of thousands" of lives




					taibbi.substack.com


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The above statement is spot on.
> 
> We have turned things on their head so to speak.


While I'm generally opposed to these mandates because they force one form of medical treatment over others, I would be less opposed if the mandates allowed for periodic testing or previously infected immunity in lieu of mandated vaccines.  That seems to be a reasonable accommodation.

Instead its we know what's best for you based on our cherry picked science so shut up and comply, you Qanon disciple, parent terrorist, horse paste licking, orange man worshipping, Newsmax watching,  pointy hat wearing, anti-vaxxer.  (Did I miss any GG?)


----------



## Grace T.

Oster on masks: cloth masks help very little...we have to be honest with the public over what we can and can't do....if it takes you 15 minutes of exposure in a room to fall ill masks may give you an additional 5 (editorial: in which case, why the F are we covering kids faces for a 5-8 hour school day!!!)...he's been really disappointed with his colleagues in public health....a face cloth mask is going to protect you is simply not true....screen shot surveys show 25% of the population is wearing it under their nose.









						Do Masks Provide as Much Protection as We Think?
					

A recent internal document from the CDC reveals that it's as contagious as chickenpox and it carries an increased risk of severe illness and hospitalization. Michael Osterholm is the Director for Infectious Disease, Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He speaks with our Walter...



					www.pbs.org


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Oster on masks: cloth masks help very little...we have to be honest with the public over what we can and can't do....if it takes you 15 minutes of exposure in a room to fall ill masks may give you an additional 5 (editorial: in which case, why the F are we covering kids faces for a 5-8 hour school day!!!)...he's been really disappointed with his colleagues in public health....a face cloth mask is going to protect you is simply not true....screen shot surveys show 25% of the population is wearing it under their nose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do Masks Provide as Much Protection as We Think?
> 
> 
> A recent internal document from the CDC reveals that it's as contagious as chickenpox and it carries an increased risk of severe illness and hospitalization. Michael Osterholm is the Director for Infectious Disease, Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He speaks with our Walter...
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


'He also uses the smell smoke analogy that I used earlier and espola dumped on.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Oster on masks: cloth masks help very little...we have to be honest with the public over what we can and can't do....if it takes you 15 minutes of exposure in a room to fall ill masks may give you an additional 5 (editorial: in which case, why the F are we covering kids faces for a 5-8 hour school day!!!)...he's been really disappointed with his colleagues in public health....a face cloth mask is going to protect you is simply not true....screen shot surveys show 25% of the population is wearing it under their nose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do Masks Provide as Much Protection as We Think?
> 
> 
> A recent internal document from the CDC reveals that it's as contagious as chickenpox and it carries an increased risk of severe illness and hospitalization. Michael Osterholm is the Director for Infectious Disease, Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He speaks with our Walter...
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


"THEY ACTUALLY ONLY HAVE VERY LIMITED IMPACT IN REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF VIRUS THAT YOU INHALE IN OR EXHALE OUT.

AND IN FACT IN STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE SHOW THAT IF AN INDIVIDUAL MIGHT GET INFECTED WITHIN 15 MINUTES IN A ROOM, BY TIME AND CONCENTRATION OF THE VIRUS IN THE ROOM.

ADD A FACE CLOTH COVERING YOU ONLY GET ABOUT FIVE MORE MINUTES OF PROTECTION.

I'VE BEEN REALLY DISAPPOINTED WITH MY COLLEAGUES IN PUBLIC HEALTH FOR NOT BEING MORE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT CAN MASKING DG OR NOT DO."

He points out studies. Studies in fact on the CDC site that show little affect. 

He is a fan of the n95s. 

The rest is just for show.


----------



## Grace T.

Rise in ‘school phobia’ as children stay home due to anxiety
					

Mental health problems exacerbated by pandemic and school closures, say experts




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> While I'm generally opposed to these mandates because they force one form of medical treatment over others, I would be less opposed if the mandates allowed for periodic testing or previously infected immunity in lieu of mandated vaccines.  That seems to be a reasonable accommodation.
> 
> Instead its we know what's best for you based on our cherry picked science so shut up and comply, you Qanon disciple, parent terrorist, horse paste licking, orange man worshipping, Newsmax watching,  pointy hat wearing, anti-vaxxer.  (Did I miss any GG?)


Don't forget flat earther.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> Don't forget flat earther.


And climate change denier, Obama birther.

Actually went to school with Obama when I was a kid, so I know he's been in the US since 4th grade.  Didn't know him at the time but he is in my yearbooks.  Known then as Barry and he was a little chubby (pre-nicotine diet).  Probably the only kid that wore shoes to school.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> And climate change denier, Obama birther.
> 
> Actually went to school with Obama when I was a kid, so I know he's been in the US since 4th grade.  Didn't know him at the time but he is in my yearbooks.  Known then as Barry and he was a little chubby (pre-nicotine diet).  Probably the only kid that wore shoes to school.
> 
> View attachment 11835


Surprised you didn't get the call to become ambassador to Somalia or some other exotic place. Should have been nicer to him in 4th grade apparently.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Surprised you didn't get the call to become ambassador to Somalia or some other exotic place. Should have been nicer to him in 4th grade apparently.


The 4th graders weren't hanging out with the kinders.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

FREE MARKETS

Don't Ask Politicians To Fix a Supply Chain Crisis They Created
*Governments may not be able to make an economy, but they've proven they can break it.*
J.D. TUCCILLE | 10.6.2021 7:00 AM

"Tariffs on raw materials, low tech/cost components, equipment, and finished goods which are not adequately produced in the U.S., are causing delivery delays of critical products and/or higher consumer costs," the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers, the Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute, the North American Association of Food Equipment Manufacturers and the National Electrical Manufacturers Association point out in a white paper sent to the Biden administration last week. "Plant shutdowns and/or slowdowns caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, including current difficulties attracting new employees despite competitive pay and benefits, have reduced manufacturing productivity," they added.
​Separately, the American Apparel & Footwear Association also asked for tariff relief to ease "the chaos and cost increases caused by the shipping crisis."

The trade associations fret over serious worldwide supply chain issues often represented by backlogs at ports, but also involving the inability to source both components needed for production and finished goods. Some of the international disconnect between supply and demand can be attributed to specific policies, such as lockdowns that make it difficult for factories to satisfy customers.

*"Governments have struggled to secure doses [of vaccine] and have imposed costly lockdowns that have left many factories without workers," Reuters reported in August of manufacturing woes in Asia.*

Likewise, Britain's dearth of truck drivers has been laid at the feet of the border barriers imposed by Brexit, which certainly didn't help. But neither did the suspension of the approval process for commercial drivers or lockdowns that idled workers.

*"Covid has had an impact and the most obvious Covid impact is that normally about 35,000—40,000 tests are done a year for HGV [heavy goods vehicle] drivers and had to be suspended quite rightly for Covid, and there's a backlog of tests," the head of a dairy co-op told the Yorkshire Post.

"Foreign labour was not scared out of Britain due to an abstract legal change; it was driven out by the Government's lockdown policies in response to the pandemic, which shuffled many from their jobs onto a souped-up dole," charges British economist Philip Pilkington, who points out that Ireland, which remains in the EU, also has a driver shortage. "Many realised that the dole is better where they came from on the continent, especially relative to the cost of living, and so they left." Pilkington also points to the delay in testing drivers as contributing to the shortage.*

Lockdowns also changed people's lives, closing offices and factories and confining people at home. That resulted in massive and unpredictable shifts in demand and unreliable supply*. Do you remember the disappearance from supermarkets of flour and yeast early in the pandemic? Who knew that people with time on their hands would discover their inner bakers (at least for the time being)?*

"The period of contagion, self-isolation and economic uncertainty will change the way consumers behave, in some cases for years to come," observes the consulting firm McKinsey & Company. "The new consumer behaviors span all areas of life, from how we work to how we shop to how we entertain ourselves. These rapid shifts have important implications for retailers and consumer-packaged-goods companies."
How many of these changes will be permanent, and which will revert to old patterns after restrictions on normal life disappear? Businesses planning for the future have to guess, with their survival at stake.

"The idea that an economy could be indiscriminately shut down and turned back on without far-reaching consequences, as if a light switch or lawn mower, is utterly damnable," charges economist Peter C. Earle. *"It could only come from the mind of an individual, or body of individuals, with no understanding of or consideration for the extraordinary interdependence of the productive sector."

"Market economies tend to be pretty good at getting food on the supermarket shelves and fuel in petrol stations, if left to themselves," agrees Pilkington. "That last part is key: if left to themselves. Heavy-handed interference in market economies tends to produce the same pathologies we see in socialist economies, including shortages and inflation.* That has been the unintended consequence of lockdown."
Unfortunately, there's almost certainly more pain on the way. Electricity is now in short supply in China, partially because a drought has hobbled hydropower, but also because the government makes it impossible for electricity producers to compensate for rising coal prices.
"Power plants buy coal at market price but are not allowed to raise electricity rates on customers beyond small margins set by national planners," notes the _Los Angeles Times_. "When coal is expensive, many plants report 'maintenance outages' and reduce or stop operation rather than suffer losses."

That may ease the shipping logjam, but only because there will be fewer goods produced by factories shuttered by blackouts. Europe, too, suffers soaring energy prices as demand recovers from pandemic lockdowns even as prices rise for fossil fuels and governments' planned transition to renewable energy proves vulnerable to nature's whims. That also leads to manufacturing slowdowns. You can expect the consequences to cascade around the world, with yet more empty shelves.

*The danger is that people see economic problems caused by earlier fiddling and then demand even more government intervention. *The semiconductor shortage, for instance, can be attributed to production curtailed by lockdowns as demand for computers soared among populations compelled to work and study from home. But the trade-group white paper that asked the Biden administration for tariff relief also begged it to "Ensure that semiconductor supply is fairly and transparently allocated across industry sectors and that the Administration does not—explicitly or implicitly—favor any one sector."

The groups don't elaborate on what a semiconductor policy should look like. But if the government were to further meddle in the market to allocate products made scarce by earlier actions, it's hard to see how the result wouldn't be anything other than increased supply chain chaos.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> And climate change denier, Obama birther.
> 
> Actually went to school with Obama when I was a kid, so I know he's been in the US since 4th grade.  Didn't know him at the time but he is in my yearbooks.  Known then as Barry and he was a little chubby (pre-nicotine diet).  Probably the only kid that wore shoes to school.
> 
> View attachment 11835


My elder brother went to law school with him during his bomber jacket/smoking phase....he'd always hang out outside the law review smoking.  I'm told I met him a few times including at the annual salsa party but I have no memory of it.


----------



## Grace T.

Of course they did.....









						Flush with COVID-19 aid, schools steer funding to sports
					

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — One Wisconsin school district built a new football field. In Iowa, a high school weight room is getting a renovation. Another in Kentucky is replacing two outdoor tracks — all of this funded by the billions of dollars in federal pandemic relief Congress sent to schools...




					apnews.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 'He also uses the smell smoke analogy that I used earlier and espola dumped on.


Apparently you didn't understand it then.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Oster on masks: cloth masks help very little...we have to be honest with the public over what we can and can't do....if it takes you 15 minutes of exposure in a room to fall ill masks may give you an additional 5 (editorial: in which case, why the F are we covering kids faces for a 5-8 hour school day!!!)...he's been really disappointed with his colleagues in public health....a face cloth mask is going to protect you is simply not true....screen shot surveys show 25% of the population is wearing it under their nose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do Masks Provide as Much Protection as We Think?
> 
> 
> A recent internal document from the CDC reveals that it's as contagious as chickenpox and it carries an increased risk of severe illness and hospitalization. Michael Osterholm is the Director for Infectious Disease, Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He speaks with our Walter...
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


Damn, Chicken Little and I agree that the masking has been oversold.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

It’s also not clear that such a mandate would do much for public safety given the low risk of COVID transmission aboard flights. That low risk was detailed in an October 2020 article published in the _Journal of the American Medical Association_. Cabin air, the article’s authors note, is recycled through HEPA filters which filter out virus particles. The way air flows within the cabin—from ceiling to floor, with little flow between rows—also reduces the odds of in-flight COVID transmission, they said.

*“An airplane cabin is probably one of the most secure conditions you can be in,” Sebastian Hoehl, a researcher at the Institute for Medical Virology at Goethe University Frankfurt in Germany, told Scientific American in November 2020.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

An investigation has found that the Canadian military used the COVID-19 pandemic as an excuse to turn on the Canadian people propaganda techniques intended to be used against foreign enemies. The plan was developed by Canadian Joint Operations Command without the direction of civilian leadership. Military officials said the project was aimed at bolstering government messages about the disease and at stopping civil disobedience to pandemic restrictions.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> The danger is that people see economic problems caused by earlier fiddling and then demand even more government intervention.


THIS


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Of course they did.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flush with COVID-19 aid, schools steer funding to sports
> 
> 
> IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — One Wisconsin school district built a new football field. In Iowa, a high school weight room is getting a renovation. Another in Kentucky is replacing two outdoor tracks — all of this funded by the billions of dollars in federal pandemic relief Congress sent to schools...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


I am sure MANY schools and districts used the money thrown at them for wish list items. It is the nature of gov spending and the associated waste that goes along with it.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Damn, Chicken Little and I agree that the masking has been oversold.


Waiting on dad to tell us they work in 5, 4, 3, 2......


----------



## Desert Hound

Germans show off their yellow badges to prove they've been vaccinated against COVID-19
					

At least they're not making the unvaccinated wear yellow badges.




					twitchy.com


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Interesting that despite the vaccine we are on track for a worse year than last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US reports highest weekly COVID-19 vaccinations since July 4
> 
> 
> The United States has been facing a COVID-19 surge as the more contagious delta variant continues to spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


Imagine how much worse it would've been without vaccines.


----------



## Grace T.

No statistical difference in Florida school districts with masking.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445922363728613377


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> I am sure MANY schools and districts used the money thrown at them for wish list items. It is the nature of gov spending and the associated waste that goes along with it.


Back room drug deals to your brothers construction company etc.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Imagine how much worse it would've been without vaccines.


Lol!  For who?  The banks?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Damn, Chicken Little and I agree that the masking has been oversold.


Went to my maskless gym again tonite.  It was busy with healthy folks.  Then I saw them.  An elderly couple without mask on the exercise bikes.  Of course they were Asian.  I reckon they were in their 80's and not given to being a wimp like our President.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is the same study that has been posted here repeatedly, probably without people realizing it is the same one.  Again, the entire conclusion rests on how ~260 cases bin between cohorts that number ~65000 each.  In both cohorts, doubled vaxxed and previously infected, the central observation is that second infections are rare.  Given that the events of interest (ie secondary infection) are very small, there are statistical issues and cohort matching issues associated with the study. These problems are touched upon at some length by various people posting within the comments section of the preprint server on which the study is posted.  As of last week, the paper still remains under review.  Given the length of time that has passed, it is possible that that the authors have been asked to provide extensive additional documentation, or to demonstrate that their findings actually have predictive value in a larger, random sampling.
> 
> That Science chose to highlight this study-as a preprint-is I think unfortunate, and an example of how the scientific community and journal editors need to adopt more rigorous best practices to ensure studies like this are not misappropriated.  The immunologist quoted in the Science highlight (the one who says "don't try this home") is a leading figure in the field and, at the time this preprint was posted, was about to have a big paper coming out showing how the the clean up on aisle 5 that results from the massive cell lysis associated with viral infection stimulates formation of cellular structures that can then become super-primed by subsequent vaccination.  So they were sort of interested in this type of synergy between infection and vaccination and I think that is why Science decided to highlight it.  I was bothered by the cavalier attitude at Science and wrote the editor with like "do you realize what you are messing with".  The response was largely, well, if the numbers don't hold up then it doesn't matter. But that's wrong.  For this study it is now too late for whether the numbers are right.


And then there is the obvious and blinding age discrimination of the Corona virus.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> 600 million doses and $9.65B is policy incentive.  Data sometimes plays second fiddle to corporate profits.


Obama Care was in a death $piral.  Which means Health Care and Pharma are not far behind.  Banks don't like their borrower$ to be a part of the $piral.  So a bailout of the Healthcare industry via crisis is actually a bailout of the banks.  Sound familiar?  See the bank bailout in your rear view mirror?  That's what happens when you drop cash on the economy disproportionate to goods and services in the economy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No statistical difference in Florida school districts with masking.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445922363728613377


Ok, now tell us how large an effect would need to be to get reportable results with n=54 and m=13.  

You will almost never get reportable results with numbers that small.  This is why it's on Twitter.  Any real publication will take one look at the sample size and dismiss it as horribly underpowered.


----------



## espola

Save your vaccination record on your phone --  



			https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Ok, now tell us how large an effect would need to be to get reportable results with n=54 and m=13.
> 
> You will almost never get reportable results with numbers that small.  This is why it's on Twitter.  Any real publication will take one look at the sample size and dismiss it as horribly underpowered.


You’re projecting again….projections do not equate to reality!


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Save your vaccination record on your phone --
> 
> 
> 
> https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


Thanks…when the gestapo asks me for my papers I can show them my phone…


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Ok, now tell us how large an effect would need to be to get reportable results with n=54 and m=13.
> 
> You will almost never get reportable results with numbers that small.  This is why it's on Twitter.  Any real publication will take one look at the sample size and dismiss it as horribly underpowered.


Then there is the obvious age discrimination of Corona.  Even real publications are avoiding that stat.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Save your vaccination record on your phone --
> 
> 
> 
> https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


Scary isn't it.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Scary isn't it.


Why is that scary?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> You’re projecting again….projections do not equate to reality!


Projecting?

I don’t think you understood the post.

Grace posted a garbage pseudo-study, and I explained why it was garbage.  

No one was even pretending to predict the future.  The twitter dude made an attempt to explain the past, and I explained why it was trash - statistically speaking.


----------



## whatithink

NorCalDad said:


> Why is that scary?


Its weird that people would think that's scary. The EU have a Digital Covid Cert that they are using to travel, sits on your phone and is also being used to gain entry to places that require it - many on here will be happy with its scope, i.e. the inclusion of the third one. They've issued millions so far. How is it any different to showing ID to get into a bar or requiring certain vaccinations before visiting certain countries.

The EU Digital COVID Certificate (DCC) is proof (in digital or paper format) that you have either:

been vaccinated against COVID-19 *or*
received a negative COVID-19 test result *or*
recovered from COVID-19 in the last 6 months


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Projecting?
> 
> I don’t think you understood the post.
> 
> Grace posted a garbage pseudo-study, and I explained why it was garbage.
> 
> No one was even pretending to predict the future.  The twitter dude made an attempt to explain the past, and I explained why it was trash - statistically speaking.


And my point stands as valid…when you figure it out, you will understand.  

hint:  have you ever heard the phrase, “that’s why they play the game”?


----------



## Kicker4Life

whatithink said:


> Its weird that people would think that's scary. The EU have a Digital Covid Cert that they are using to travel, sits on your phone and is also being used to gain entry to places that require it - many on here will be happy with its scope, i.e. the inclusion of the third one. They've issued millions so far. How is it any different to showing ID to get into a bar or requiring certain vaccinations before visiting certain countries.
> 
> The EU Digital COVID Certificate (DCC) is proof (in digital or paper format) that you have either:
> 
> been vaccinated against COVID-19 *or*
> received a negative COVID-19 test result *or*
> recovered from COVID-19 in the last 6 months


What is scary is that we are going thru such lengths for a a virus with the statistics that it has.   These are unprecedented measures that are extreme by historical measures.  
Even the policy makers seem to be in on the “Fear Theater”……









						Rashida Tlaib admits she only wore mask at event because GOP 'tracker' was nearby
					

Rep. Rashida Tlaib was caught on camera admitting she was only wearing a mask because a "Republican tracker" was following her.




					news.yahoo.com
				




And people wonder why there is skepticism…..makes you wonder who is really spreading misinformation???


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Strange how ID mandates fall between ideological lines. The right wants voter ID for registered voters. Registered, i.e. already on the books as an American citizen with the right to vote . . . but where do those on the right fall on gun registration? Now it’s Covid ID’s? So it’s ok for people to own guns with no paper trail or walk around like a feral cat with who knows what kind of diseases, but Americans need to prove they are Americans over and over?


----------



## lafalafa

Things are heating up in the work places, City of LA, and 5-11 children.









						UCLA anesthesiologist, vocal against COVID vaccine mandates, is escorted out of workplace
					

UCLA anesthesiologist Dr. Christopher B. Rake was escorted out of his workplace for not being vaccinated against COVID-19.




					www.latimes.com
				




City of LA indoor vax mandate nov29








						Garcetti signs COVID vaccine mandate for indoor spaces starting Nov. 29
					

Mayor Garcetti has signed an ordinance to require people in Los Angeles to show proof of vaccination before entering indoor establishments.




					abc7.com
				




Pfizer officially asks FDA to greenlight vaccine for kids ages 5-11








						Pfizer officially asks FDA to greenlight vaccine for kids ages 5-11
					

FDA's advisers are scheduled to debate the evidence later this month.




					abc7.com


----------



## what-happened

whatithink said:


> Its weird that people would think that's scary. The EU have a Digital Covid Cert that they are using to travel, sits on your phone and is also being used to gain entry to places that require it - many on here will be happy with its scope, i.e. the inclusion of the third one. They've issued millions so far. How is it any different to showing ID to get into a bar or requiring certain vaccinations before visiting certain countries.
> 
> The EU Digital COVID Certificate (DCC) is proof (in digital or paper format) that you have either:
> 
> been vaccinated against COVID-19 *or*
> received a negative COVID-19 test result *or*
> recovered from COVID-19 in the last 6 months


It's not weird.   Just because the EU does it  doesn't mean we need to do it. 

1.  Going 100% complete digital would increase inequality off the bat.  The homeless, the disabled, and 40% of those over 65 don't have smart phones.
2.  Why create anothe new data base for amassing personal data?  
3.  What's wrong with a paper version?  passports seem to work just fine NOT being digital?

 Let's work on getting the vaccine equitably distributed.  There is plenty of work to be done in getting people vaccinated.  Creating a hard to construct digital infrastructure to show proof of vaccination is a waste of time and money.  

It's interesting that at first, our governmen clearly expressed zero interest in creating a federal system to track vaccination.  Now we are slowly reversing course.  Plenty of social pressure being placed to go the route that EU is trying to create.  The EU isn' there yet with a central system.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Why is that scary?


Why create another data base?  Is this 100% accessible to all?  Will the homeless not be allowed into starbucks to use the bathroom if they don't present a vaccine passport on their smartphone?  

Don't know if you've ever been to NYC, not too many public restrooms available.  Imagine the line at The Shops at Columbus Circle for the public restroom?  They are already long on a normal day.  Now imgaine having to scan your vaccine passport to use the bathroom.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Why create another data base?  Is this 100% accessible to all?  Will the homeless not be allowed into starbucks to use the bathroom if they don't present a vaccine passport on their smartphone?
> 
> Don't know if you've ever been to NYC, not too many public restrooms available.  Imagine the line at The Shops at Columbus Circle for the public restroom?  They are already long on a normal day.  Now imgaine having to scan your vaccine passport to use the bathroom.


Politicians are often so narrow-minded and stubborn on an issue (typically an issue that fits their narrative) that their either incapable of, or intentionally ignore, predictable collateral consequences.  This has never been more true than during the pandemic.  The left thinks they're sticking it to white, Trump supporting anti-vaxxers when in reality their policies are discriminating against black Americans and the less fortunate.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Politicians are often so narrow-minded and stubborn on an issue (typically an issue that fits their narrative) that their either incapable of, or intentionally ignore, predictable collateral consequences.  This has never been more true than during the pandemic.  The left thinks they're sticking it to white, Trump supporting anti-vaxxers when in reality their policies are discriminating against black Americans and the less fortunate.


I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.   Pretty myopic.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Why create another data base?  Is this 100% accessible to all?  Will the homeless not be allowed into starbucks to use the bathroom if they don't present a vaccine passport on their smartphone?
> 
> Don't know if you've ever been to NYC, not too many public restrooms available.  Imagine the line at The Shops at Columbus Circle for the public restroom?  They are already long on a normal day.  Now imgaine having to scan your vaccine passport to use the bathroom.


Seems like maybe you chose the wrong word.  Upwards of 95% of homeless people have cell phones, 80% of which are smart phones.  I don't think that's as big of an issue as you think it is.   Lack of public restrooms is an issue in pretty much every large city.  San Francisco is a great example.  It's a problem, no doubt, but that has nothing to do with vaccination certification.  It really can't get any worse than it already is.  I've seen things in SF that I wish I hadn't.


----------



## espola

Just to state the obvious -- You can also still use the paper card.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Seems like maybe you chose the wrong word.  Upwards of 95% of homeless people have cell phones, 80% of which are smart phones.  I don't think that's as big of an issue as you think it is.   Lack of public restrooms is an issue in pretty much every large city.  San Francisco is a great example.  It's a problem, no doubt, but that has nothing to do with vaccination certification.  It really can't get any worse than it already is.  I've seen things in SF that I wish I hadn't.


The restroom comment is facetious and directed at the idea of having to scan your phone to enter the shops by those with smart phones. 

Don't know how much you work with the homeless. Many do have cell phones and it's proven to be a somewhat effective way to provide health care.  having a cell phone and using a cell phone are two different things.  Let's not hijack this thread though.  Cell phone usage amongst the homeless isn't the same as those people who live outside of their situation.


----------



## lafalafa

NorCalDad said:


> Seems like maybe you chose the wrong word.  Upwards of 95% of homeless people have cell phones, 80% of which are smart phones.  I don't think that's as big of an issue as you think it is.   Lack of public restrooms is an issue in pretty much every large city.  San Francisco is a great example.  It's a problem, no doubt, but that has nothing to do with vaccination certification.  It really can't get any worse than it already is.  I've seen things in SF that I wish I hadn't.


Huh? Maybe in your area?

95% Of homeless with cell phone service?

I've Volunteer with The Shower of Hope in the LA metro area and I would say about 33% had/have cell phone service.

Any documentation or identification can be difficult for some homeless including paper.


----------



## whatithink

what-happened said:


> It's not weird.   Just because the EU does it  doesn't mean we need to do it.
> 
> 1.  Going 100% complete digital would increase inequality off the bat.  The homeless, the disabled, and 40% of those over 65 don't have smart phones.
> 2.  Why create anothe new data base for amassing personal data?
> 3.  What's wrong with a paper version?  passports seem to work just fine NOT being digital?
> 
> Let's work on getting the vaccine equitably distributed.  There is plenty of work to be done in getting people vaccinated.  Creating a hard to construct digital infrastructure to show proof of vaccination is a waste of time and money.
> 
> It's interesting that at first, our governmen clearly expressed zero interest in creating a federal system to track vaccination.  Now we are slowly reversing course.  Plenty of social pressure being placed to go the route that EU is trying to create.  The EU isn' there yet with a central system.


So, 

The EU one is either digital or paper - it literally said that in what I quoted
meh, its like the TSA precheck - the EU one is for ease of travel - and I don't see anyone screaming about that.
Nothing, you can do the paper all you want. 
BTW, you do know that IDs in the US are going digital, e.g. "Tech giant Apple has announced that eight US states will start accepting driver’s licenses and other state IDs that are stored on iPhones and Apple Watch. Arizona and Georgia will be the first states to allow their residents to use this system, and will be followed by Connecticut, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Oklahoma and Utah."


----------



## what-happened

lafalafa said:


> Huh? Maybe in your area?
> 
> 95% Of homeless with cell phone service?
> 
> I've Volunteer with The Shower of Hope in the LA metro area and I would say about 33% had/have cell phone service.
> 
> Any documentation or identification can be difficult for some homeless including paper.


Don't bother.  The Homeless and phones usage is a complex and layered issue.  Having a phone doesn't mean using a phone.  The numbers he pulled are from self reported surveys.  The homeless are very hard to poll and are very hard to support with government sponsored programs that provide them cell services to leverage health care and assistance
The point is that digital vaccination passports will not be inclusive of certain populations.  To think it's a panacea is short sighted.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.   Pretty myopic.


You disagree that the vaccine requirements don't inordinately affect POC. Pretty ignorant.


----------



## what-happened

whatithink said:


> So,
> 
> The EU one is either digital or paper - it literally said that in what I quoted
> meh, its like the TSA precheck - the EU one is for ease of travel - and I don't see anyone screaming about that.
> Nothing, you can do the paper all you want.
> BTW, you do know that IDs in the US are going digital, e.g. "Tech giant Apple has announced that eight US states will start accepting driver’s licenses and other state IDs that are stored on iPhones and Apple Watch. Arizona and Georgia will be the first states to allow their residents to use this system, and will be followed by Connecticut, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Oklahoma and Utah."


I get it.  We are being collected on all the time and there are things that we do that make our life more convenient.  Vaccine passports will discriminate.  People should be screaming about that.  Funny that they are not.  

Vaccine passports for a disease that will eventually become endemic?


----------



## Grace T.

lafalafa said:


> Things are heating up in the work places, City of LA, and 5-11 children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UCLA anesthesiologist, vocal against COVID vaccine mandates, is escorted out of workplace
> 
> 
> UCLA anesthesiologist Dr. Christopher B. Rake was escorted out of his workplace for not being vaccinated against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City of LA indoor vax mandate nov29
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garcetti signs COVID vaccine mandate for indoor spaces starting Nov. 29
> 
> 
> Mayor Garcetti has signed an ordinance to require people in Los Angeles to show proof of vaccination before entering indoor establishments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer officially asks FDA to greenlight vaccine for kids ages 5-11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer officially asks FDA to greenlight vaccine for kids ages 5-11
> 
> 
> FDA's advisers are scheduled to debate the evidence later this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com



Us census bureau is apparently reporting 1 in 12 children is now homeschooled.  There are a bunch of reasons for it including: COVID fear, shutdown fears/restrictions such as on after school care and busing/quarantine fears, COVID protocols at school like masks, the CRT theory debate, etc.  But mandating the vaccine for 5-11 is going to have an impact (probably small but nevertheless an impact...especially with the younger ones).  It's also going to further exacerbate our labor problems as women bear the brunt of childcare.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445871816405258248


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I get it.  We are being collected on all the time and there are things that we do that make our life more convenient.  Vaccine passports will discriminate.  People should be screaming about that.  Funny that they are not.
> 
> Vaccine passports for a disease that will eventually become endemic?


I think most required vaccinations are for endemic diseases.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Projecting?
> 
> I don’t think you understood the post.
> 
> Grace posted a garbage pseudo-study, and I explained why it was garbage.
> 
> No one was even pretending to predict the future.  The twitter dude made an attempt to explain the past, and I explained why it was trash - statistically speaking.


If the sample size is too small it's because Florida cases are declining so rapidly that kids aren't getting sick so there isn't a huge pool there.  In which case, again, what's the rationale for masking kids?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Ok, now tell us how large an effect would need to be to get reportable results with n=54 and m=13.
> 
> You will almost never get reportable results with numbers that small.  This is why it's on Twitter.  Any real publication will take one look at the sample size and dismiss it as horribly underpowered.


You know what we do know? 

That kids in school are not a risk. 

Last year you were VERY concerned about the states sending their kids back to school. You were also very worried about colleges having classes. Assuring us that this indeed would be very bad. 

What did the data show? 

There was no concern. 

And that ties in with masks or no masks in school. It won't make a difference one way. The first way is they dont really work. The 2nd and most important reason is these age groups have zero risk. 

Putting a mask on a kid or a college student is just safety theater. It in no way changes the risk profile with is NIL. 

That is why when they study areas where kids wore masks in schools vs those with no masks...they cannot find any real difference in outcomes.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Any real publication will take one look at the sample size and dismiss it as horribly underpowered.


And yet over the past year or so I have seen you highlight reports with small sample sizes as proof. The hair dresser example with a 100 people or so is one that you have used a variety of times as just one example. 

Consistency on your part? FAIL


----------



## GoldenGate

NorCalDad said:


> I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.   Pretty myopic.


Racists try to make themselves feel better by rationalizing that the negative consequences of any government action they don't like have an outsized impact on the poor and therefore minorities. The problem, of course, is that the negative consequences of any government action - or inaction - always have outsized impacts on the poor, especially when you ignore all the positive benefits of those policies like Watfly does.  The poor obviously can't get vaccinated nearly as easily as the wealthy even when it is free.  The poor have less access to quality remote education, or safe in person education at fancy schools with a lot of cash to take precautions.  The poor have far less ability to socially distance at work because a higher percentage work manufacturing or logistics where they can't just come in the back and close the door to their posh admin offices.  The poor have much less access to quality healthcare if they get sick.  Of course, the racists' solution is not to help the poor overcome any of these systemic problems in society. Rather, it is to make them worse and then rationalize ridiculously stupid things like how we should discourage vaccination because that's what is obviously best for the people who manufacture all the poultry they want to stay at $5.00 a pound without regard to how many processing plant workers die.  Or oppose vaccine mandates for hospital staff because Cedar Sinai has a shit ton of staff and pretty swanky accommodations to limit spread in the most spreadable places on the planet, whereas hospitals in the Central Valley and most poor areas lack those resources.  People like Watfly want less quality public education for the poor because they think that costs them money and they want to keep away from their own kids' nice schools.  They want to provide even less healthcare access for the poor because they think it costs them money although, not surprisingly, they are totally cool with the billions and billions that their dumbfuck bumpkin anti-vaxxers cultists are racking up in ventilator costs for no reason other than sheer stupidity. But Watfly sure as shit wants all the garbage he buys on Amazon delivered without delays or cost increases regardless of how many people working low income jobs manufacturing and warehousing need it die. 

Watfly is not "doing it for the black people."  He's like a shit ton of Herman Cain Award winners who try to rationalize their own lack of empathy towards the poor and racism by claiming that things like free vaccines, free ipads and internet access for the needy, free healthcare, free anything that benefits the poor is racist.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxiji8


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0vw1x


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pgeno3


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pqam6z


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn5un2
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q2dd37/this_winner_had_some_advanced_brain_worms_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0ca6r/racist_insurrection_supporting_grandpa_said_no_to/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/po56jg/man_posts_antivax_and_racist_memes_daughter/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnxfg4/everyone_meet_derek_a_racist_antivaxxer_who_met/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pfvwxy/racist_grandma_is_outta_time/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pg92zl/sweet_steven_is_with_the_lord_now_if_the_lord_is/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pcse8y/hc_freedom_award_for_this_racist_asshole/


----------



## whatithink

what-happened said:


> I get it.  We are being collected on all the time and there are things that we do that make our life more convenient.  Vaccine passports will discriminate.  People should be screaming about that.  Funny that they are not.
> 
> Vaccine passports for a disease that will eventually become endemic?


Vaccine passports are a choice. You are free to get one or not. Why would anyone be screaming about freedom of choice? Isn't freedom the American way? I do understand people screaming when someone takes away your freedom to choose. That's very un-American, you know, taking away our freedoms and trying to mandate what we can and cannot do with our bodies, especially when it only impact some Americans, but not all - that's certainly discrimination.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker4Life said:


> What is scary is that we are going thru such lengths for a a virus with the statistics that it has. These are unprecedented measures that are extreme by historical measures.


It is unprecedented. That is why we have to fight back against it. 

It is infringement upon our rights based on a virus that is of no real threat to the majority of the population.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Projecting?
> 
> I don’t think you understood the post.
> 
> Grace posted a garbage pseudo-study, and I explained why it was garbage.
> 
> No one was even pretending to predict the future.  The twitter dude made an attempt to explain the past, and I explained why it was trash - statistically speaking.


Who said you were pretending?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If the sample size is too small it's because Florida cases are declining so rapidly that kids aren't getting sick so there isn't a huge pool there.  In which case, again, what's the rationale for masking kids?


Sample size in this case is number of jurisdictions, nit the number of people.  

Kind of moot anyway.  If you want to do a natural experiment like he did, you also need to think about selection bias possible alternate explanations.  That is, were there any other differences between the mask mandate districts and the non-mask mandate districts.   For example, the mask mandate districts are likely to have populations which were more worried about covid in other ways.  This would affect both the height of the peak, and therefore the rate of post peak decline.

Ok.  Now that’s two reasons your Twitter “study” is garbage.  Need more?  Or can we just stop pretending that “I saw this thing on bit chute” counts as evidence?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> *or*
> 
> recovered from COVID-19 in the last 6 months


How do they prove recovery?


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> How do they prove recovery?


Google is your friend. The EU is exhaustive in providing details for their programs.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Vaccine passports for a disease that will eventually become endemic?


THIS ^^^^

Madness what they want to do.

By the way THIS is why we shouldn't be mandating the vaxx...and especially on kids with no risks. We have yet to know if there are any long term affects. Note...the article doesn't say what they are seeing is because of the vax, but on the other hand they don't know yet. That is why long term studies need to be done before we mandate people take a vaxx. 









						500,000+ Adverse Events Reported After COVID Vaccination
					

Over 500,000 adverse issues have been reported after receiving COVID vaccinations in the United States, including temperature, skin and neuropathy related issues.




					humanevents.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Sample size in this case is number of jurisdictions, nit the number of people.
> 
> Kind of moot anyway.  If you want to do a natural experiment like he did, you also need to think about selection bias possible alternate explanations.  That is, were there any other differences between the mask mandate districts and the non-mask mandate districts.   For example, the mask mandate districts are likely to have populations which were more worried about covid in other ways.  This would affect both the height of the peak, and therefore the rate of post peak decline.
> 
> Ok.  Now that’s two reasons your Twitter “study” is garbage.  Need more?  Or can we just stop pretending that “I saw this thing on bit chute” counts as evidence?


Selection bias sounds about right.  Corona has been extremely selective.  It chooses the elderly and the immuno-suppressed.  But we've known that since May 2020.  Mandates are one size fits all.  That's not Science.  That is garbage.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sample size in this case is number of jurisdictions, nit the number of people.
> 
> Kind of moot anyway.  If you want to do a natural experiment like he did, you also need to think about selection bias possible alternate explanations.  That is, were there any other differences between the mask mandate districts and the non-mask mandate districts.   For example, the mask mandate districts are likely to have populations which were more worried about covid in other ways.  This would affect both the height of the peak, and therefore the rate of post peak decline.
> 
> Ok.  Now that’s two reasons your Twitter “study” is garbage.  Need more?  Or can we just stop pretending that “I saw this thing on bit chute” counts as evidence?


Oh please.  As Hound pointed out a lot of the stuff the CDC has put out (like the hairdresser, county and carrier studies) were all garbage too.  The double explanation was pointed out to you in those studies too (such as on the carrier or the Bangladesh study it combined the effects of masks and distancing) but you dismissed those too.

I'm not claiming it's probative of anything.  But they are interesting in the same way your studies were.

And I notice you still have no response for Dr. Chicken Little who even he seems to have run off your island.  Like studies, you only like the experts that agree with you.


----------



## Grace T.

The "people are children" argument against vaccine mandates.









						With Each Passing Day the Supposed Justifications For Vaccine Passports Are Being Proven Wrong
					

So of course, they're expanding every day




					ianmsc.substack.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Should we start a GoFundMe to get a therapist for GG?


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> It is unprecedented. That is why we have to fight back against it.
> 
> It is infringement upon our rights based on a virus that is of no real threat to the majority of the population.


It's so unprecedented that the US Supreme Court has upheld the legality of mandatory vaccinations - twice.  

Does your plan to fight back involve storming the Capitol again?  Or maybe another recount?  As long as Cyber Ninjas are fleecing all of you anti-vaxxer/mask cultists, maybe you should ask them to recount the 700,000 plus who have already died of Covid.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Oh please.  As Hound pointed out a lot of the stuff the CDC has put out (like the hairdresser, county and carrier studies) were all garbage too.  The double explanation was pointed out to you in those studies too (such as on the carrier or the Bangladesh study it combined the effects of masks and distancing) but you dismissed those too.
> 
> I'm not claiming it's probative of anything.  But they are interesting in the same way your studies were.
> 
> And I notice you still have no response for Dr. Chicken Little who even he seems to have run off your island.  Like studies, you only like the experts that agree with you.


I read Osterholm’s piece.  

It reads like he is overcorrecting after his hurricane comments. 

His view on masks effectiveness (25%) is reasonable.  I do disagree with the lens he puts on it.  “How long can I stay in this room” is the wrong question.  It is not actually true that 14 minutes is safe and 16 minutes is not safe.  So, “adds 5 minutes to a 15 minute window” just compares a misleading number against itself.

I don’t dismiss distance in the Bangladesh study.  You are saying the masked clusters might have also kept their distance better.  Could be true, but it doesn’t change the result.  Masks still work, you are just arguing about how they work.

It is possible that surgical masks were effective because they made everyone think about doctors.  Or maybe people in Bangladesh find masks unattractive, and therefore stay further away.  It doesn’t matter.  You are just arguing the mechanism.  The effect is still that surgical masks reduced transmission.


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Should we start a GoFundMe to get a therapist for GG?


Thanks, but I feel like you anti-vaxxers/maskers are spending all your GoFundMe money on the Herman Cain Award winners.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvgky1


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pywgwg


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pm9d2l


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0s89b


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pu9nee
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pyzxsp/local_firefighter_raised_awareness_for_cancer_but/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/psnj54/jay_went_to_a_massive_local_rock_festival_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pi92qy/this_q_nut_was_especially_satisfying/

BTW, do you have a goatee like the rest of the nut jobs?


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Should we start a GoFundMe to get a therapist for GG?


No. He has been in and out of various "institutions" for years. He gets better in there because they have him on a mandate regime of drugs. Once he gets "better" they release him. After some time he start forgetting to take his meds...and then starts surfing reddit and then posting those results along with his insults here. 

So it would be a pointless waste of money.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> The "people are children" argument against vaccine mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Each Passing Day the Supposed Justifications For Vaccine Passports Are Being Proven Wrong
> 
> 
> So of course, they're expanding every day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ianmsc.substack.com


"IM" from Twitter seems like a very reputable source.


----------



## what-happened

whatithink said:


> Vaccine passports are a choice. You are free to get one or not. Why would anyone be screaming about freedom of choice? Isn't freedom the American way? I do understand people screaming when someone takes away your freedom to choose. That's very un-American, you know,* taking away our freedoms and trying to mandate what we can and cannot do with our bodies, especially when it only impact some Americans, but not all - that's certainly discrimination.*


Not really following what you are trying to say.  Twisting politics in with medicine is silly and a slippery slope.  You are more than welcome to have the choice/life discussion with someone else.  

Vaccine passports are simply not worth the effort.  what do they really do?


slightly reduce the risk to healthy vaccinated individuals who've been vaccinated?
VERY slightly reduce the risk to kids, who are protected by youth
Slightly reduce the risk of vulnerable people, who are few.
Maybe we will use vaccine passports to try and get people to get the vaccine. That will likely expend a good amount of political captial to achieve what end?  

What's even the point when you can still:  get sick, pass on the virus, die from breakthrough infections.  Makes zero sense.  Wait until people don't get their boosters. What then.  It's much easier to practice medicine.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> You disagree that the vaccine requirements don't inordinately affect POC. Pretty ignorant.


Did you read what he wrote?  Go back and read it then come back here.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Should we start a GoFundMe to get a therapist for GG?


The bar does provide some free intervention services.  Has he burned through those?



dad4 said:


> I read Osterholm’s piece.
> 
> It reads like he is overcorrecting after his hurricane comments.
> 
> His view on masks effectiveness (25%) is reasonable.  I do disagree with the lens he puts on it.  “How long can I stay in this room” is the wrong question.  It is not actually true that 14 minutes is safe and 16 minutes is not safe.  So, “adds 5 minutes to a 15 minute window” just compares a misleading number against itself.
> 
> I don’t dismiss distance in the Bangladesh study.  You are saying the masked clusters might have also kept their distance better.  Could be true, but it doesn’t change the result.  Masks still work, you are just arguing about how they work.
> 
> It is possible that surgical masks were effective because they made everyone think about doctors.  Or maybe people in Bangladesh find masks unattractive, and therefore stay further away.  It doesn’t matter.  You are just arguing the mechanism.  The effect is still that surgical masks reduced transmission.


IIRC in the Bangladesh study the primary distancing effects were in the older, not the young, for which even with surgicals there wasn't a statistical difference for younger people.  Even if you accept "maybe people in Bangladesh" find masks unattractive that would only mean they'd work in Bangladesh and places were similar cultures....not that "the effect is still that surgical masks reduced transmission".  Like Hound said, you complain about these things, but then when you do em yourself it's perfectly acceptable.  A better, more scientific approach is not to say anything (except perhaps a definitive RCS) proves anything, but rather that it is "interesting" and see where else it leads us.

Oster is basically saying the same thing I've been saying since spring of last year. Masks on a micro level are probably effective on a short term basis.  If you have students with ill fitting cloth masks though crowded in a room with only adequate ventilation for 6-9 hours, they ain't gonna doing anything.  Same with the passenger sitting on a bus or an airplane who is sick next to you.  Same with the coworker in the meat packing plant or sharing the cubicle next to yours.


----------



## whatithink

what-happened said:


> Not really following what you are trying to say.  Twisting politics in with medicine is silly and a slippery slope.  You are more than welcome to have the choice/life discussion with someone else.
> 
> Vaccine passports are simply not worth the effort.  what do they really do?
> 
> 
> slightly reduce the risk to healthy vaccinated individuals who've been vaccinated?
> VERY slightly reduce the risk to kids, who are protected by youth
> Slightly reduce the risk of vulnerable people, who are few.
> Maybe we will use vaccine passports to try and get people to get the vaccine. That will likely expend a good amount of political captial to achieve what end?
> 
> What's even the point when you can still:  get sick, pass on the virus, die from breakthrough infections.  Makes zero sense.  Wait until people don't get their boosters. What then.  It's much easier to practice medicine.


The point of the vaccine passports is to provide an easy way of showing it, where its required. My initial reply was with respects to your "scary" comment. The EU example I gave has nothing to do with medicine, its about providing a consistent reporting platform across jurisdictions. They allow ease of travel to countries that require validation of status wrt COVID. Its not about being vaccinated, i.e. see the 3 options. You're bent out of shape about imaginary things that don't exist.

As for the choice / politics angle - mea culpa. I do find it hypocritical though with the "freedom of choice (my body) for me for this, but not for you for that", argument.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I think most required vaccinations are for endemic diseases.


Sure.   Chicken pox comes to mind as does tuberculosis,  influenza, Hepatitus.


----------



## Desert Hound

Well on one of the vaxxes they are now recommending they dont be administered to young people.

This is precisely why you shouldn't mandate a drug without having years of study on it.





__





						CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca
				




Sweden is worried about it as well.









						Sweden halts use of Moderna's COVID vaccine in under 30s
					

National health agency says "very minor" risk of certain side effects appears linked to 2nd dose of the vaccine, and was more prevalent among young men and boys.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Strange how ID mandates fall between ideological lines. The right wants voter ID for registered voters. Registered, i.e. already on the books as an American citizen with the right to vote . . . but where do those on the right fall on gun registration? Now it’s Covid ID’s? So it’s ok for people to own guns with no paper trail or walk around like a feral cat with who knows what kind of diseases, but Americans need to prove they are Americans over and over?


Apples and Oranges.


----------



## what-happened

whatithink said:


> The point of the vaccine passports is to provide an easy way of showing it, where its required. My initial reply was with respects to your "scary" comment. The EU example I gave has nothing to do with medicine, its about providing a consistent reporting platform across jurisdictions. They allow ease of travel to countries that require validation of status wrt COVID. Its not about being vaccinated, i.e. see the 3 options. You're bent out of shape about imaginary things that don't exist.
> 
> As for the choice / politics angle - mea culpa. I do find it hypocritical though with the "freedom of choice (my body) for me for this, but not for you for that", argument.


We'll agree to have a difference of opinion.  I don't think I'm bent out of shape because of my opinion.  A vaccine passport requirement in this country will discriminate against certain populations. That's scary to me but maybe not to you.  Depends on your line of work.

There is hypocrisy on both sides of the choice/life movement.  Plenty of nuance, privilegde, entitlement, narcism, and tragedy involved.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Google is your friend. The EU is exhaustive in providing details for their programs.


Too bad the FDA does not recognize natural immunity.


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> Too bad the FDA does not recognize natural immunity.


Just as well the EU doesn't give a cr@p what the FDA says in this instance then


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.   Pretty myopic.


Lol! Hard to agree with everything he just said when you're myopic.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Just as well the EU doesn't give a cr@p what the FDA says in this instance then


Good to know somebody is following the Science.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Well on one of the vaxxes they are now recommending they dont be administered to young people.
> 
> *This is precisely why you shouldn't mandate a drug without having years of study on it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden is worried about it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden halts use of Moderna's COVID vaccine in under 30s
> 
> 
> National health agency says "very minor" risk of certain side effects appears linked to 2nd dose of the vaccine, and was more prevalent among young men and boys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


THIS


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> The bar does provide some free intervention services.  Has he burned through those?
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC in the Bangladesh study the primary distancing effects were in the older, not the young, for which even with surgicals there wasn't a statistical difference for younger people.  Even if you accept "maybe people in Bangladesh" find masks unattractive that would only mean they'd work in Bangladesh and places were similar cultures....not that "the effect is still that surgical masks reduced transmission".  Like Hound said, you complain about these things, but then when you do em yourself it's perfectly acceptable.  A better, more scientific approach is not to say anything (except perhaps a definitive RCS) proves anything, but rather that it is "interesting" and see where else it leads us.
> 
> Oster is basically saying the same thing I've been saying since spring of last year. Masks on a micro level are probably effective on a short term basis.  If you have students with ill fitting cloth masks though crowded in a room with only adequate ventilation for 6-9 hours, they ain't gonna doing anything.  Same with the passenger sitting on a bus or an airplane who is sick next to you.  Same with the coworker in the meat packing plant or sharing the cubicle next to yours.


Are bar resources available to someone like you who apparently went to law school but never actually practiced law?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> "IM" from Twitter seems like a very reputable source.


What are you so afraid of?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Scary isn't it.


Are you panicking?  Don't let Grace know.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Are you panicking?  Don't let Grace know.


Grace knows that mandates came from a place where the fear campaign Trumped Science.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Are you panicking?  Don't let Grace know.


Not panicking.  Just disappointed


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Not panicking.  Just disappointed


I have no idea what that means.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.


That's ok - I'm fine that.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.


Shocker


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> That's ok - I'm fine that.


I think he was just disappointed.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> That's ok - I'm fine that.


You're disappointed that the state health system provides an easy way to verify your vaccination record?

Or are you just pumping out random words?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You're disappointed that the state health system provides an easy way to verify your vaccination record?
> 
> Or are you just pumping out random words?


What does that mean?  Random words?  That's your wheel house.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> What does that mean?  Random words?  That's your wheel house.


I am not surprised that you just want to play word games.  Grace is better at it than you are.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.   Pretty myopic.


With all due respect, you have the myopic thinking backwards.  It's our leadership that has been myopic.  I can change my mind with evidence, show me what you got instead of just disputing what I post.  Below are just a few examples that support my opinion (My apologies for not posting anything from Reddit).  Now leaderships' failure is not entirely political it is also a lack of competence.  Politicians typically don't have any relevant organizational and operational training.  Many are attorneys that are single focus on the matters at hand and are incapable of evaluating cause and effect, cost/benefit, risk management, etc.









						Nearly 10 Million Cancer Screenings Missed During Pandemic
					

Researchers analyzed data on three types of cancer for which early screenings are most beneficial — breast, colon and prostate.




					www.webmd.com
				



.









						COVID-19 and learning loss--disparities grow and students need help
					

Winter is coming, and COVID-19 cases are spiking again. While the pandemic has set back learning for all students, it has been especially cruel to Black, Hispanic, and Indigenous children.




					www.mckinsey.com
				












						Impact of COVID-19 and lockdown on mental health of children and adolescents: A narrative review with recommendations
					

COVID-19 pandemic and lockdown has brought about a sense of fear and anxiety around the globe. This phenomenon has led to short term as well as long term psychosocial and mental health implications for children and adolescents. The quality and magnitude ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						Beach closures will target Orange County, not apply statewide
					

Gov. Gavin Newsom announced a “very targeted” closure of the beaches in Orange County Thursday, but stopped short of announcing a rumored statewide ban on beach use.




					fox5sandiego.com
				












						Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated
					

As the Delta variant courses through New York City, many young Black New Yorkers remain distrustful of the vaccine.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I am not surprised that you just want to play word games.  Grace is better at it than you are.





espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.


q.e.d.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Should we start a GoFundMe to get a therapist for GG?


I'm pretty confident he might be a therapist.  He has an amazing ability to tell you what your thinking and what you believe even if your not thinking or believing that.  Its uncanny.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Oh please.  As Hound pointed out a lot of the stuff the CDC has put out (like the hairdresser, county and carrier studies) were all garbage too.  The double explanation was pointed out to you in those studies too (such as on the carrier or the Bangladesh study it combined the effects of masks and distancing) but you dismissed those too.
> 
> I'm not claiming it's probative of anything.  But they are interesting in the same way your studies were.
> 
> And I notice you still have no response for Dr. Chicken Little who even he seems to have run off your island.  Like studies, you only like the experts that agree with you.


The CDC put out a similar garbage study on Arizona school masking.


----------



## Grace T.

More pauses for the moderna vax









						Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna COVID-19 vaccine
					

Finland on Thursday paused the use of Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine for younger males due to reports of a rare cardiovascular side effect, joining Sweden and Denmark in limiting its use.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Grace T.

Delta is pretty much the same as Alpha in children.  So much for it's so much worse and there's so much we don't know.









						Illness characteristics of COVID-19 in children infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant
					

Background The Delta (B.1.617.2) SARS-CoV-2 variant became the predominant UK circulating strain in May 2021. Whether COVID-19 from Delta infection differs to infection with other variants in children is unknown.  Methods Through the prospective COVID Symptom Study, 109,626 UK school-aged...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> The CDC put out a similar garbage study on Arizona school masking.


Arizona is really killing it, I mean them, with its Covid-19 death rate.  Thank goodness children don't spread Covid-19 to their parents, teachers, coaches or anyone else.  I even heard that the prayer warriors have made people impervious to Covid-19 so long as they're on school grounds.  Just in case, you should donate more money to Cyber Ninjas to confirm - if they haven't completely fleeced you out of your conspiracy theory money yet.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Delta is pretty much the same as Alpha in children.  So much for it's so much worse and there's so much we don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illness characteristics of COVID-19 in children infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant
> 
> 
> Background The Delta (B.1.617.2) SARS-CoV-2 variant became the predominant UK circulating strain in May 2021. Whether COVID-19 from Delta infection differs to infection with other variants in children is unknown.  Methods Through the prospective COVID Symptom Study, 109,626 UK school-aged...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


Weird how "only time will tell" with vaccines, but that isn't the case for "natural immunity" or the long term effects of Covid-19.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The CDC put out a similar garbage study on Arizona school masking.


They all lacked the rigor that Evil laments in the Israeli study.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Arizona is really killing it, I mean them, with its Covid-19 death rate.  Thank goodness children don't spread Covid-19 to their parents, teachers, coaches or anyone else.  I even heard that the prayer warriors have made people impervious to Covid-19 so long as they're on school grounds.  Just in case, you should donate more money to Cyber Ninjas to confirm - if they haven't completely fleeced you out of your conspiracy theory money yet.


Cali still leading the total deaths and total cases race.  What are you afraid of tough guy?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Weird how "only time will tell" with vaccines, but that isn't the case for "natural immunity" or the long term effects of Covid-19.





espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.


Doink!


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Cali still leading the total deaths and total cases race.  What are you afraid of tough guy?


Even your easily duped anti-vaxxer friends know this is a ridiculous argument.  Just stick to denial. Everyone is dying from motor cycle accidents.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Even your easily duped anti-vaxxer friends know this is a ridiculous argument.  Just stick to denial. Everyone is dying from motor cycle accidents.


When you stop ignoring and lamenting the long history of the mandated immune system and the nearly 8 billion people on earth you may come back to the adult table.  Denial is not required when you follow the Science.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Even your easily duped anti-vaxxer friends know this is a ridiculous argument.  Just stick to denial. Everyone is dying from motor cycle accidents.


The desperate don’t mind looking stupid and vice versa.


----------



## Grace T.

Masks mandates "work".....
Breakthroughs are "rare".......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446208843906629640


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> The desperate don’t mind looking stupid and vice versa.


Hahaha! Trolls of a feather, flock together.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> Strange how ID mandates fall between ideological lines. The right wants voter ID for registered voters. Registered, i.e. already on the books as an American citizen with the right to vote . . . but where do those on the right fall on gun registration? Now it’s Covid ID’s? So it’s ok for people to own guns with no paper trail or walk around like a feral cat with who knows what kind of diseases, but Americans need to prove they are Americans over and over?





GoldenGate said:


> It's so unprecedented that the US Supreme Court has upheld the legality of mandatory vaccinations - twice.
> 
> Does your plan to fight back involve storming the Capitol again?  Or maybe another recount?  As long as Cyber Ninjas are fleecing all of you anti-vaxxer/mask cultists, maybe you should ask them to recount the 700,000 plus who have already died of Covid.


still desperately grasping for straws……you fill a humorous void I’ve had in my day to day lately….happy your back in a sick twisted way.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Masks mandates "work".....
> Breakthroughs are "rare".......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446208843906629640


Your Twitter "evidence" does not support your conclusion.  It really just proves that at least one hospital forgot to upgrade the air filtration in the break room.

Maybe you can find something on Tumblr to support your point of view?  Or reddit?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Your Twitter "evidence" does not support your conclusion.  It really just proves that at least one hospital forgot to upgrade the air filtration in the break room.
> 
> Maybe you can find something on Tumblr to support your point of view?  Or reddit?


Yah…your boy GG loves Reddit…..


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your Twitter "evidence" does not support your conclusion.  It really just proves that at least one hospital forgot to upgrade the air filtration in the break room.
> 
> Maybe you can find something on Tumblr to support your point of view?  Or reddit?



Errr...what does the airfiltration system have to do with double vaxxed vaccine efficiency?  The rate was 14/15 fully vaxxed.  The Pfizer studies claiming 80% or so efficiency don't say "provided the relevant individuals are masked and the air filtration system is upgraded"

Yes, it's just an anecdote.  But the anecdotes are becoming more and more common and not in line with a very high efficiency against symptomatic infection.  Remember I have my own: 11 participants at an outdoor picnic, patient zero masked, 3 naturally immune did not fall ill, 4 double vaxxed individuals did.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> Yah…your boy GG loves Reddit…..


Damn, you beat me to it!


----------



## Kicker4Life




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr...what does the airfiltration system have to do with double vaxxed vaccine efficiency?  The rate was 14/15 fully vaxxed.  The Pfizer studies claiming 80% or so efficiency don't say "provided the relevant individuals are masked and the air filtration system is upgraded"
> 
> Yes, it's just an anecdote.  But the anecdotes are becoming more and more common and not in line with a very high efficiency against symptomatic infection.  Remember I have my own: 11 participants at an outdoor picnic, patient zero masked, 3 naturally immune did not fall ill, 4 double vaxxed individuals did.


Did 14/15 wind up hospitalized?  Or 14/15 got a positive PCR?  Not at all the same, and I bet it's the latter.

The jab promises protection against severe disease.  You're asking for 80% protection against minor infection.  That drug does not exist.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> View attachment 11838


Condoms.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Did 14/15 wind up hospitalized?  Or 14/15 got a positive PCR?  Not at all the same, and I bet it's the latter.
> 
> The jab promises protection against severe disease.  You're asking for 80% protection against minor infection.  That drug does not exist.


Well we agree on something: the pharmaceutical companies aren't being up front and honest about the effectiveness against symptomatic infection.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> View attachment 11838


Poo-pourri


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> With all due respect, you have the myopic thinking backwards.  It's our leadership that has been myopic.  I can change my mind with evidence, show me what you got instead of just disputing what I post.  Below are just a few examples that support my opinion (My apologies for not posting anything from Reddit).  Now leaderships' failure is not entirely political it is also a lack of competence.  Politicians typically don't have any relevant organizational and operational training.  Many are attorneys that are single focus on the matters at hand and are incapable of evaluating cause and effect, cost/benefit, risk management, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly 10 Million Cancer Screenings Missed During Pandemic
> 
> 
> Researchers analyzed data on three types of cancer for which early screenings are most beneficial — breast, colon and prostate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 and learning loss--disparities grow and students need help
> 
> 
> Winter is coming, and COVID-19 cases are spiking again. While the pandemic has set back learning for all students, it has been especially cruel to Black, Hispanic, and Indigenous children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mckinsey.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impact of COVID-19 and lockdown on mental health of children and adolescents: A narrative review with recommendations
> 
> 
> COVID-19 pandemic and lockdown has brought about a sense of fear and anxiety around the globe. This phenomenon has led to short term as well as long term psychosocial and mental health implications for children and adolescents. The quality and magnitude ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beach closures will target Orange County, not apply statewide
> 
> 
> Gov. Gavin Newsom announced a “very targeted” closure of the beaches in Orange County Thursday, but stopped short of announcing a rumored statewide ban on beach use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fox5sandiego.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant courses through New York City, many young Black New Yorkers remain distrustful of the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Dude, this is what you wrote:

"Politicians are often so narrow-minded and stubborn on an issue (typically an issue that fits their narrative) that their either incapable of, or intentionally ignore, predictable collateral consequences. This has never been more true than during the pandemic. The left thinks they're sticking it to white, Trump supporting anti-vaxxers when in reality their policies are discriminating against black Americans and the less fortunate"

Perhaps had you left that last sentence out it I would've left it alone.  That last sentence is what made me disagree with the whole paragraph.  You drew a line in the sand and essentially blamed the left. How else is one supposed to read that?  Words matter.


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker4Life said:


> Yah…your boy GG loves Reddit…..


GG also isn't telling everyone how smart they are or how they follow logic (in this case yahoos on Twitter).  Most smart people I know don't have to tell people they're smart.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Well we agree on something: the pharmaceutical companies aren't being up front and honest about the effectiveness against symptomatic infection.


More random words.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well we agree on something: the pharmaceutical companies aren't being up front and honest about the effectiveness against symptomatic infection.


What?  I don't feel at all misled.  I was told the jab protects against severe disease, and it does.

If anything, the pharma companies have done a good job keeping their message straight despite a sea of misinformation.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> What?  I don't feel at all misled.  I was told the jab protects against severe disease, and it does.
> 
> If anything, the pharma companies have done a good job keeping their message straight despite a sea of misinformation.


Then why are you running around wearing an n95 mask?


----------



## Desert Hound

This is a good read.









						The Cult of the Vaccine
					

"The jab" is just the latest story to be reported as mantra




					taibbi.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What?  I don't feel at all misled.  I was told the jab protects against severe disease, and it does.
> 
> If anything, the pharma companies have done a good job keeping their message straight despite a sea of misinformation.


You were the one that raised the million dollar question of herd immunity is less the breakthroughs

reason it’s important is because if that’s a large number (assuming natural immunity is long lasting and more robust) you don’t get to herd immunity and this doesn’t end until large portions of people are infected (in which case why areyou going around selfishly using an n95 instead of taking your chances like the rest of us non elderly vaxxed?).

and if natural immunity doesn’t do it, under YOU OWN FORMULATION which you laid out, herd immunity is impossible.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Dude, this is what you wrote:
> 
> "Politicians are often so narrow-minded and stubborn on an issue (typically an issue that fits their narrative) that their either incapable of, or intentionally ignore, predictable collateral consequences. This has never been more true than during the pandemic. The left thinks they're sticking it to white, Trump supporting anti-vaxxers when in reality their policies are discriminating against black Americans and the less fortunate"
> 
> Perhaps had you left that last sentence out it I would've left it alone.  That last sentence is what made me disagree with the whole paragraph.  You drew a line in the sand and essentially blamed the left. How else is one supposed to read that?  Words matter.


Actually I blamed the politicians.  But the left thinks that vaccine cards required for normal activities are no big deal because its only the Trump anti-vaxxers that this policy discriminates against.  Review the prior posts by your leftist friends and you will see this sentiment repeated ad nauseum.  I've provided the evidence for my opinion including Newsom singling out the white, republican stronghold of OC for the most restrictive Covid policy.   You can't deny that Newsom's policies are in large part political.  He closed schools statewide a couple days after LAUSD and SDUSD said they wouldn't allow their teachers to return to school.  He dropped his tier Covid system when the recall was certified and then didn't implement any new policies before the election (even though infections would have put every county way beyond the Purple tier).  Then boom he wins the election and now he implements sweeping vaccination requirements for children on the downslope of the Delta wave.   You can't be that naïve not to see that in plain sight.  Even I can concede that DeSantis and Abbot had policies influenced by politics, just with significantly less collateral damage.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Actually I blamed the politicians.  But the left thinks that vaccine cards required for normal activities are no big deal because its only the Trump anti-vaxxers that this policy discriminates against.  Review the prior posts by your leftist friends and you will see this sentiment repeated ad nauseum.  I've provided the evidence for my opinion including Newsom singling out the white, republican stronghold of OC for the most restrictive Covid policy.   You can't deny that Newsom's policies are in large part political.  He closed schools statewide a couple days after LAUSD and SDUSD said they wouldn't allow their teachers to return to school.  He dropped his tier Covid system when the recall was certified and then didn't implement any new policies before the election (even though infections would have put every county way beyond the Purple tier).  Then boom he wins the election and now he implements sweeping vaccination requirements for children on the downslope of the Delta wave.   You can't be that naïve not to see that in plain sight.  Even I can concede that DeSantis and Abbot had policies influenced by politics, just with significantly less collateral damage.


"Even I can concede that DeSantis and Abbot had policies influenced by politics, just with significantly less collateral damage."  

Are you kidding me?

Look I will be the first to say 99% of politicians are not representing their constituents needs.  I think Bernie might be the only one who actually cares about people, but surely that statement alone will trigger the MAGAs here.   I think my views have been consistent here.  I've called out Newsom many times on this thread and elsewhere on this message board.  But, to lay blame on the "leftists" is just dumb and it reveals more about you than anything else.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> "Even I can concede that DeSantis and Abbot had policies influenced by politics, just with significantly less collateral damage."
> 
> Are you kidding me?
> 
> Look I will be the first to say 99% of politicians are not representing their constituents needs.  I think Bernie might be the only one who actually cares about people, but surely that statement alone will trigger the MAGAs here.   I think my views have been consistent here.  I've called out Newsom many times on this thread and elsewhere on this message board.  But, to lay blame on the "leftists" is just dumb and it reveals more about you than anything else.


My views are consistent here as well, its about the kids and it's been the left controlled states that have placed the most Covid policy burdens on our kids at the expense of their health and education.  It's unfortunate that you can't see that.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> My views are consistent here as well, its about the kids and it's been the left controlled states that have placed the most Covid policy burdens on our kids at the expense of their health and education.  It's unfortunate that you can't see that.


Anybody who thinks Bernie cares more about people, and says he has been consistent is telling the truth about his democratic socialism.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> "Even I can concede that DeSantis and Abbot had policies influenced by politics, just with significantly less collateral damage."
> 
> Are you kidding me?
> 
> Look I will be the first to say 99% of politicians are not representing their constituents needs.  I think Bernie might be the only one who actually cares about people, but surely that statement alone will trigger the MAGAs here.   I think my views have been consistent here.  I've called out Newsom many times on this thread and elsewhere on this message board.  But, to lay blame on the "leftists" is just dumb and it reveals more about you than anything else.


I can actually respect Bernie.   He has his principles and he appears to be unwavering in his commitment to them.  I just disagree with many of his principles or how he wants to implement them.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> My views are consistent here as well, its about the kids and it's been the left controlled states that have placed the most Covid policy burdens on our kids at the expense of their health and education.  It's unfortunate that you can't see that.


You honestly think the children in right controlled states have faired better? 

I know far more people on the "left" that are willing to call out people in their "party" than those on the right.  It's quite fascinating to be honest.  I mean that's how most folks on this board operate.  I mean look at the dudes posting all the noise.  Seriously, look at the crap they post.  it's frickin nuts.....but oh no....GG needs an intervention.  Give me a break man.  I think I'm starting to agree with @Grace T.'s view on adults in this country.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> You honestly think the children in right controlled states have faired better?
> 
> I know far more people on the "left" that are willing to call out people in their "party" than those on the right.  It's quite fascinating to be honest.  I mean that's how most folks on this board operate.  I mean look at the dudes posting all the noise.  Seriously, look at the crap they post.  it's frickin nuts.....but oh no....GG needs an intervention.  Give me a break man.  I think I'm starting to agree with @Grace T.'s view on adults in this country.


1. The kids in red states had schools open last year, fewer mask mandates this year and had their sports.  My son was training in Utah while sports here were shut down, swimming in the pool while public pools here were closed. 
2. If you look at pundits it’s definitely not true the lefties call their own out more than the righties. There’s a long line of right commentators ranging from Ben Shapiro to Megan McCain and even Tucker Carlson that at various times called out trumpy tours. The left hasn’t done that with Biden (except somewhat on Afghanistan but if they were to be honest thered be a lot more questions about Biden’s competency right now and there isn’t). If you are talking regular folks maybe….but most regular folks are actually more moderate than the talking heads. 
3. Eotl does need an intervention. The language he uses suggests some bipolar tendency and the language is wayyyyy outside the norms attorneys use to even speak to really hostile opposing council. It suggests either someone who is doing a very serious troll act or someone mentally unbalanced. The fact that he also has to use a library computer (or some equivalent) raises questions about his life status
4. Again look at the divorce rate…some people just don’t grow up.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> You honestly think the children in right controlled states have faired better?


100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.

I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.

And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?

I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I am not surprised that you just want to play word games.  Grace is better at it than you are.


.


----------



## lafalafa

So the beat goes on.   Have to be vaccinated or have a negative test with 72hrs to attend the games or events.   People are going to be turned away at the LAFC games and the Halloween events like at Universal.









						LA County COVID vaccine mandate takes effect for large events, indoor areas of bars, nightclubs
					

L.A. County began imposing COVID-19 vaccination requirements at indoor portions of bars, wineries, distilleries, nightclubs and lounges.




					abc7.com
				




Number of people I guess including some HS or club coaches are losing jobs besides just medical professionals.  Long time manager at a place where one of our young adults works was put on leave yesterday and was not allowed to enter the facility.  Getting real...


----------



## outside!

Bruddah IZ said:


> Cali still leading the total deaths and total cases race.  What are you afraid of tough guy?


Deaths per capita and cases per capita are the only meaningful way to compare different areas. Throw in population density and it becomes more meaningful. Do the research and look at North Dakota.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The language he uses suggests some bipolar tendency


Um, don't you have to visit another pole to be bipolar?  I'd say he is far more uni-polar than bipolar, although I'm pretty sure its just an act, he's playing a character under the anonymity of an online forum. If he was that mentally ill he wouldn't be able to logon.  Another alternative is that he is a Gender Studies instructor at the local JC.


----------



## what-happened

lafalafa said:


> So the beat goes on.   Have to be vaccinated or have a negative test with 72hrs to attend the games or events.   People are going to be turned away at the LAFC games and the Halloween events like at Universal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA County COVID vaccine mandate takes effect for large events, indoor areas of bars, nightclubs
> 
> 
> L.A. County began imposing COVID-19 vaccination requirements at indoor portions of bars, wineries, distilleries, nightclubs and lounges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Number of people I guess including some HS or club coaches are losing jobs besides just medical professionals.  Long time manager at a place where one of our young adults works was put on leave yesterday and was not allowed to enter the facility.  Getting real...


Fully vaccinated, or proof of negative test, and.....masked.. Science.

Always makes me laught when they say proof of negative test 72 hrs prior.  I suppose they could be more sciency and demand proof of isolation as well.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Another alternative is that he is a Gender Studies instructor at the local JC.


Ha - brilliant!  I'm going to share some of his eloquent prose with a shrink buddy of mine and see if he can profile it.  You just made my day...


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


A better description is that adults, right and left, have successfully opposed most adult mandates.  

And, when there is a mandate on adults, they complain LOUDLY.   The mandate gets weakened or repealed and the kid mandate is what remains.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

outside! said:


> Deaths per capita and cases per capita are the only meaningful way to compare different areas. Throw in population density and it becomes more meaningful. Do the research and look at North Dakota.


Meaningful for whom and why?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> A better description is that adults, right and left, have successfully opposed most adult mandates.
> 
> And, when there is a mandate on adults, they complain LOUDLY.   The mandate gets weakened or repealed and the kid mandate is what remains.


You may be right to some extent, but that doesn't make it right to put these burdens on kids because they can't fight back.  It's abuse of kids and its abuse of power.  I just can't rationalize it like you do.  I'm kind of meh with many of the adult mandates, but when you lose your job because you won't subject yourself to medical treatment that the government has decided is the preferred treatment despite the fact there are alternatives that may actually be superior.  That is incredibly troubling.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A better description is that adults, right and left, have successfully opposed most adult mandates.
> 
> And, when there is a mandate on adults, they complain LOUDLY.   The mandate gets weakened or repealed and the kid mandate is what remains.


The US is one of the few countries mandating masks on the very young.  Many European countries have decided that vaccination should not be required for the very young.  Most of Europe had schools open when the US had them closed.  So something is very different from the way the US handled children than from how Europe did.


----------



## watfly

outside! said:


> Deaths per capita and cases per capita are the only meaningful way to compare different areas. Throw in population density and it becomes more meaningful. Do the research and look at North Dakota.


While I agree that's a more appropriate standard its a fools errand to compare states and countries.  For every North Dakota, I can raise you a Utah.  There are far too many variables (and exceptions) at play to reliably attribute any causation to mandates.  Culture has a far more dramatic effect.


----------



## lafalafa

So we have some friends with very young kids, 2 under the age of 5 and there concerned about the wearing masks requirements of them.

The concern is about them developing there own individual identity.  With a mask covering large portions of their face they think that may influence them becoming more independent or not. 

Very young kids look in the mirror and discover themselves as independent unique individuals. With the masks they have a harder time doing that and that can depersonalize them and make them feel more submissive or controlled.

Not here to debate about masks but if we had preschool age kids think I would try to find or do something for them that's different vs the status quo at least where we live in SoCal.


----------



## Grace T.

lafalafa said:


> So we have some friends with very young kids, 2 under the age of 5 and there concerned about the wearing masks requirements of them.
> 
> The concern is about them developing there own individual identity.  With a mask covering large portions of their face they think that may influence them becoming more independent or not.
> 
> Very young kids look in the mirror and discover themselves as independent unique individuals. With the masks they have a harder time doing that and that can depersonalize them and make them more submissive.
> 
> Not here to debate about masks but if we had preschool age kids think I would try to find or do something for them that's different vs the status quo at least where we live in SoCal.


The other big issue with that age group has been kids with conditions such as ADHD or autism, or kids that have learning needs such as slow speech and slow readers (which learn through observing faces of the teacher and other stuff), or (obviously) the deaf (for which this entire thing has been an absolute nightmare).  

On the other hand, if I had a child with Downs, I wouldn't be comfortable sending them into the group care environment right now, even if everyone were mandated to wear N95 masks.

The stupid thing for this age group is that because of the choking concern, many jurisdictions prohibit the masks while napping (and of course they all nap together)...which makes a lot of this just security theatre.


----------



## watfly

lafalafa said:


> So we have some friends with very young kids, 2 under the age of 5 and there concerned about the wearing masks requirements of them.
> 
> The concern is about them developing there own individual identity.  With a mask covering large portions of their face they think that may influence them becoming more independent or not.
> 
> Very young kids look in the mirror and discover themselves as independent unique individuals. With the masks they have a harder time doing that and that can depersonalize them and make them feel more submissive or controlled.
> 
> Not here to debate about masks but if we had preschool age kids think I would try to find or do something for them that's different vs the status quo at least where we live in SoCal.


Yeah, but if we don't mask them they could kill adults.

We rely on facial clues, including moving lips, for socialization, comprehension and development.  Smiles are healthy, both to the giver and the recipient.  Now they're irrelevant in schools, among other places.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> You may be right to some extent, but that doesn't make it right to put these burdens on kids because they can't fight back.  It's abuse of kids and its abuse of power.  I just can't rationalize it like you do.  I'm kind of meh with many of the adult mandates, but when you lose your job because you won't subject yourself to medical treatment that the government has decided is the preferred treatment despite the fact there are alternatives that may actually be superior.  That is incredibly troubling.


Pro-vaxxers are hoping theyʻll be cured of their Silver Bullet Symdrome.


----------



## Grace T.

Australia still unable to contain the Delta (despite having come out of winter)....









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




It's also increasingly appearing New Zealand has failed in containment.....









						New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

New Zealand Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Dad4's favorite high masked high vaxxed singapore continues to show an increase









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Heavily vaxxed iceland has also been unable to contain...









						Iceland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Iceland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




And for the record here's how test and trace South Korea continues to do.....









						South Korea COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

South Korea Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




It's beginning to look like the only country that will have managed to near completely escape covid is Taiwan.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Yeah, but if we don't mask them they could kill adults.
> 
> We rely on facial clues, including moving lips, for socialization, comprehension and development.  Smiles are healthy, both to the giver and the recipient.  Now they're irrelevant in schools, among other places.


The AAPs recommendation to mask children age 2 and up is lunacy and detoriates the crediblity of any type of covid guidance given by them.  The EUCDC's masking policy for children is  polar opposite of what the US recommendations are.


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433474227475128328


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Ha - brilliant!  I'm going to share some of his eloquent prose with a shrink buddy of mine and see if he can profile it.  You just made my day...


Do you really what to do that?  Personally, I have more fun speculating as to what's wrong with him than wanting to know his actual diagnosis.


----------



## Grace T.

Another one.....









						Five Scandinavian countries limit or halt Moderna
					

Finland has joined Sweden, Denmark and Norway in either banning or discouraging young adults or teens from getting the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine, because of the increased risk of myocarditis —




					www.thesuburban.com
				





We have enough vaccine choices (even without the AZ approval in the US) for a reasonable vaccine policy:

-Moderna for the near old and old....it seems to be more robust anyways
-Pfizer for the middle aged and near old
-J&J or 1 dose Pfizer for young men
-Pfizer for young women

Interestingly a lot of this is probably tied not just to the mechanism (mRNA v. traditional) but also to the dosage amounts (J&J being just one, Moderna being more potent).


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> A better description is that adults, right and left, have successfully opposed most adult mandates.
> 
> And, when there is a mandate on adults, they complain LOUDLY.   The mandate gets weakened or repealed and the kid mandate is what remains.


"...but Singapore" (if my memory serves me right)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Something is screwy: the _New York Times_ has been sensible twice in a single week.

Now writer David Leonhardt is pointing out what a lot of us have been saying pretty much the whole time: (1) predictions of doom based on people's so-called "bad behavior" often turn out to be embarrassingly off the mark, and (2) the "moralistic fable" behind COVID (whereby good and virtuous behavior makes the numbers go down and "reckless" behavior does the opposite) is unhelpful.

"The fable we tell ourselves," writes Leonhardt, "is that our day-to-day behavior dictates the course of the pandemic. When we are good — by staying socially distant and wearing our masks — cases are supposed to fall. When we are bad — by eating in restaurants, hanging out with friends and going to a theater or football game — cases are supposed to rise."

With school resuming and large crowds, often unmasked, assembling for all kinds of events, we heard plenty of stern warnings at the beginning of last month. Leonhardt cites Politico's headline "It May Only Get Worse."  "The new school year is already a disaster," said Business Insider.

And then what happened?

Everything plummeted: cases, hospitalizations, deaths.

As I've said repeatedly over the past year and a half, I've just wanted to hear the so-called experts say, at least once in a while, "We don't know. We don't fully understand what's going on here."

But that's not as fun as lording it over the public with a false certainty.

Michael Osterholm, the former Biden COVID adviser who occasionally has something sensible to say, displayed the kind of humility I've been waiting for when he told Leonhardt: "We still are really in the cave ages in terms of understanding how viruses emerge, how they spread, how they start and stop, why they do what they do."

What a refreshing change from "Shut up and listen to the science."

A little late, though. Some of us have been treated not too kindly for saying these very things.

Now, as people begin to weary of it all, people like Leonhardt suddenly have the courage to say something.

But better late than never. I'm not a sore winner.—Tommie Wood


----------



## watfly

Where's Waldo?


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> I know far more people on the "left" that are willing to call out people in their "party" than those on the right.


I don’t disagree, but I do have the impression that one side is more vocal than the other and that influences perception.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 267 of Richard W. Duesenberg’s insightful 1962 article “Individualism and Corporations” (available without charge on-line here) as it appears in Liberty Fund’s 1981 single-volume collection of the _New Individualist Review_:
]_





A society of men, free to choose individually, and therefore free to make as many successes or failures as there are choices freely made, is definitely greater than the controlled society, limited to the powers and finite qualities of its collective controlling mind._


----------



## Bruddah IZ

In an article published by New York Times reporter Apoorva Mandavilli on Wednesday, Times readers were told that “nearly 900,000 children have been hospitalized with COVID-19 since the pandemic began.”

A correction issued on Thursday notes that the correct number is 63,000 between August 2020 and October 2021, which means Mandavilli exaggerated the number of child hospitalizations by 837,000 cases. Approximately 500 American children have eventually died from the disease. The exaggeration was included in a report on the debate surrounding whether and how to vaccinate children.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Even older variants are not particularly dangerous for children. According to the CDC, of the 633,786 COVID-19 deaths since the pandemic began in February 2020, 470 were children under 18.

Any child’s death is tragic, but this number needs to be put into perspective. COVID-19 deaths among children last year are comparable to the number of children who die annually in automobile accidents (636 in 2018) and the estimated 480 deaths from flu among the same age group during the 2018–19 flu season. As Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, put it, “We don’t shut down schools in flu season.”

We also don’t shut down schools or keep kids home for the respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, another virus that most kids have had by the age of two—and that kills anywhere from 100 to 500 children under the age of five every year.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Where's Waldo?
> 
> View attachment 11842


Sure can see the difference between a Midwest crowd and a west coast crowd.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> ​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Meanwhile, courtesy of worldometers -dot- info, let's check back in with Florida. The drop in COVID deaths there has been extremely sudden and sharp, even though the general public has not modified its behavior at all. (I live here, so I know.)
> 
> The chart says it all:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> *As a friend of mine puts it, thank goodness we can be sure the media will get right to the bottom of this!*


So I checked back in with FL as you asked.  That 7 day moving average of 17 deaths per day that you thought was so great is now at 75 - because FL holds back deaths for the express purpose of duping dumbfucks like you. It turns out that the decrease is neither sudden nor sharp.  Too bad your dumbfuck friend is as easily duped as you. The media has already gotten to the bottom of this, which is that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths so that recent deaths are not reported for weeks, giving the false impression that it's doing well.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


Hey Watfly, did Bruddah IZ claiming that only 17 people a day are dying of Covid in FL "tend to post facts", or did the evil left leaning liberals who pointed out why that is complete and utter bs and follow it up with actual facts constitute "facts"? Or are you just completely full of shit when you claim that the right wing clowns here post "facts"?


----------



## Grace T.

So my kid got home last week from a Catalina overnight with school  Everyone there was doubled vaxxed or had confirmed natural immunity, they wore masks indoors or on transport including at night while sleeping with open windows, everyone took a Covid test the day before they left and the day they got back.

Interesting they despite all those precautions had a small COVID outbreak (now the question is does anything sneak in around school despite the testing).  Further interesting the kids that fell ill are all double vaxxed (none of the naturally immune so far have fallen ill as far as I know).


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


Hey Watfly, did the right wing nut job Grace T. "tend to post facts" when she claimed that it was Gavin Newsom's fault that the City of Los Angeles can implement ordinances regulating Covid-19?  And then when I pointed out the exact statute that said she was wrong, the "strict constructionist" babble nonsense about burning animals but still refused to provide any legal authority to support her position?


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Watfly, did Bruddah IZ claiming that only 17 people a day are dying of Covid in FL "tend to post facts", or did the evil left leaning liberals who pointed out why that is complete and utter bs and follow it up with actual facts constitute "facts"? Or are you just completely full of shit when you claim that the right wing clowns here post "facts"?


What part of "tend to" don't you understand?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


Does Crush "tend to post facts" when he claims that the Covid-19 vaccine is a war crime according to the Nuremburg Code?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


Does Desert Hound "tend to post facts" when he cuts and pastes an anonymous anti-vax manifesto from which he repeatedly refuses to identify the source (which it turns out is from a conspiracy theory blog), but that we do know cites a horse paste "pathologist" who has been shot down by every reputable source out there?  Are those facts?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> What part of "tend to" don't you understand?


What part of "facts" don't you understand?  Any, apparently.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> So my kid got home last week from a Catalina overnight with school  Everyone there was doubled vaxxed or had confirmed natural immunity, they wore masks indoors or on transport including at night while sleeping with open windows, everyone took a Covid test the day before they left and the day they got back.
> 
> Interesting they despite all those precautions had a small COVID outbreak (now the question is does anything sneak in around school despite the testing).  Further interesting the kids that fell ill are all double vaxxed (none of the naturally immune so far have fallen ill as far as I know).


Did your kid have a blast?  My son can't wait to go this weekend.

They made kids wear masks while sleeping?  If they did that's insane.  I'll have to check, but I don't think our kids have to be tested either before or after.   It's significantly safer to be outdoors at Catalina then indoors for the most part of 7 hours at school, particularly with kids that are unvaccinated or previously uninfected.

We attended the USC game at the Coliseum on Saturday where masks and vaccinations, or negative test required.  Not a big deal to show vax card, and everyone entered with a mask on, but once sitting down mask wearing was probably less than 5%.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> What part of "facts" don't you understand?  Any, apparently.


I'd have to check with Espola, he is the forum "fact checker".


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Did your kid have a blast?  My son can't wait to go this weekend.
> 
> They made kids wear masks while sleeping?  If they did that's insane.  I'll have to check, but I don't think our kids have to be tested either before or after.   It's significantly safer to be outdoors at Catalina then indoors for the most part of 7 hours at school, particularly with kids that are unvaccinated or previously uninfected.
> 
> We attended the USC game at the Coliseum on Saturday where masks and vaccinations, or negative test required.  Not a big deal to show vax card, and everyone entered with a mask on, but once sitting down mask wearing was probably less than 5%.


Yes he loved it.  Wouldn't have denied him the opportunity for the world.

Our school is totally overboard on the restrictions (remember when I wrote them down way back in September of last year everyone here thought it was insane....little did they know that would become a regular occurence in blue states) so the restrictions were school rather than facilities based and despite all that they STILL got some COVID cases.

Yeah the mask theater is getting really funny.  The best one was going into the pediatrician's office for our first in person visit in over a year and a half and the receptionist has the mask down under her nose.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> 100%.  Grace gives some good reasons.  The left has this odd and apparently fear based mentality where its the children's responsibility to protect adults.  Like I said before this is like not allowing kids on the Titanic for fear they might panic and flip the lifeboats and kill adults.  If you think that school closures and mask and vaccine mandates are for the protection of children you need to take a deeper dive into the data.
> 
> I don't recall you calling out EOTL/GG on any of his inappropriate comments, so pot meet kettle.  If you think his name calling, venom and blatant mischaracterizations are even remotely close to what the right leaning posters say here I question your observational skills.  With maybe one exception, the right leaning posters tend to post facts for their arguments whereas the left leaning tend to post emotions and insults.  Recall that EOTL has already been kicked off this forum once.
> 
> And as far as calling out others outside this board, how many on the left called the summer riots vs the right that called out the Jan 6 riot?   You'll find that the right was far more critical of the 6th then the left of the summer riots.  If you recall McConnell spoke out on the Senate floor and called out the rioters and Trump.  Did Pelosi or anyone on the left do the same about the summer riots aka the "Summer of Love"?
> 
> I'm hardly the poster child for a male, white Trump righty (who I never voted for).  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, socially liberal, small government minded and fiscal conservative, who try's to base his opinions on the evidence.  My koolaid is more purple than red.


Hey Watfly, when the "strict constructionist" claims that New Zealand's containment has failed -although fewer New Zealanders have contracted Covid in 18 months than Americans have died of it in a single day and, in fact, more Americans have died of Covid in one hour in a single hospital than total New Zealanders have died of Covid in total - is the right leaning anti-vaxxer/masker "tending to post facts"?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Yeah the mask theater is getting really funny.  The best one was going into the pediatrician's office for our first in person visit in over a year and a half and the receptionist has the mask down under her nose.


Hey Watfly, does an anti-vaxxer/masker's anecdotal "evidence" against wearing a mask "tend to post facts"?  But, hey, so long as you now approve of anecdotal evidence , below is a bunch of it from a number of Herman Cain Award winners who shared the strict constructionist's disapproval of masks.  It's truly amazing how often the children of lions become orphans.  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/psfpjj


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puomdo


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptu1ec


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q4wigh


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puazox
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pxqu5b/antimask_mom_sombering_reality_when_39_year_old
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ptwb4t/like_so_many_before_him_freedomloving_maskhating/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/puk0um/wes_checked_almost_all_the_boxes_candace_michelle/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pw1nv5/bruce_wasnt_a_vax_sheep_and_he_didnt_like_masks/


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I'd have to check with Espola, he is the forum "fact checker".


So now you've come full circle.  You started this nonsense by claiming that people like me and espola just post emotions and insults, and now you're ending it by making fun of espola for actually posting facts.  Of course you are.

BTW, the real reason you and your buddies are so upset about me posting examples of dumbfucks who died due to their dumbfuckery is that you don't want to confront the truth.  The truth is that it's a lot more fun when Grace T. and crush are making fun of people wearing masks if you can pretend people aren't dying because of it.  It must be such as hoot making fun of masks and vaccines, and so empathetic to get upset about having to confront the fact that people are dying. Congrats on your contributions to making orphans.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'd have to check with Espola, he is the forum "fact checker".


Is that supposed to be some sort of backhanded insult?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Is that supposed to be some sort of backhanded insult?


Actually not so much, more of a diversion from GoldenGate comments.  I believe in the past you've self-proclaimed yourself as a fact-checker.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Actually not so much, more of a diversion from GoldenGate comments.  I believe in the past you've self-proclaimed yourself as a fact-checker.


I check facts, but I don't think that needs an overt declaration.  Did you get burned on something?


----------



## Grace T.

Sydney and NSW waiving on the white flag on zero covid.








						Australia's biggest city is starting to live with Covid. Asia will be watching | CNN
					

For more than a year and a half, Australia has shut itself off from the world, closing borders and imposing strict lockdowns to stamp out Covid-19 outbreaks in a bid to eliminate the virus entirely. But on Monday its largest city is taking the first tentative steps to living with Covid.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I check facts, but I don't think that needs an overt declaration.  Did you get burned on something?


IDK, you check facts.  Did I get burned?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sure can see the difference between a Midwest crowd and a west coast crowd.


Missed the Chargers game?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> So I checked back in with FL as you asked.  That 7 day moving average of 17 deaths per day that you thought was so great is now at 75 - because FL holds back deaths for the express purpose of duping dumbfucks like you. It turns out that the decrease is neither sudden nor sharp.  Too bad your dumbfuck friend is as easily duped as you. The media has already gotten to the bottom of this, which is that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths so that recent deaths are not reported for weeks, giving the false impression that it's doing well.


Let me verify your work.  Get back to you.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> Missed the Chargers game?


The oddest part is most were Charger fans?  Where did they come from?  Of course, LA has bandwagon fans, so that's probably the explanation.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> IDK, you check facts.  Did I get burned?


I'd be surprised if you get a reply to this...as @espola is the only one authorized to respond to questions with a question.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Let me verify your work.  Get back to you.


I highly doubt that, given that I took it from the exact same website that you used to assert that the 10/2 7-day average death rate in FL was 17 people a day.  At this point, given that same number is now at 75 a day and rising, you and your anti-vax/mask friends are just going to have to claim everyone is dying in motorcycle accidents.  You might also want to direct all the "prayer warriors" to the right cause of death though, because they seem to be wasting their time on the non-existent Covid people. That said, it turns out God doesn't give a shit about anyone's prayers.









						Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds It Has No Power to Heal
					

The largest study yet on the therapeutic power of prayer by strangers has found that it provided no benefit to the recovery of patients who had undergone cardiac bypass surgery.




					www.latimes.com
				




In fact, praying just increases the likelihood of bad outcomes.









						Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials
					

Religious traditions across the world display beliefs in healing through prayer. The healing powers of prayer have been examined in triple-blind, randomized controlled trials. We illustrate randomized controlled trials on prayer and healing, with one ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




What do you think Watfly?  Factual enough for you?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> IDK, you check facts.  Did I get burned?


I don't keep track, I just live in the moment.

I did notice, however, over in the "FC England" thread, that the excuses for PS's behavior included an appeal to "do your own research" that had somehow ended up with non-facts previously shattered in this thread.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I highly doubt that, given that I took it from the exact same website that you used to assert that the 10/2 7-day average death rate in FL was 17 people a day.  At this point, given that same number is now at 75 a day and rising, you and your anti-vax/mask friends are just going to have to claim everyone is dying in motorcycle accidents.  You might also want to direct all the "prayer warriors" to the right cause of death though, because they seem to be wasting their time on the non-existent Covid people. That said, it turns out God doesn't give a shit about anyone's prayers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds It Has No Power to Heal
> 
> 
> The largest study yet on the therapeutic power of prayer by strangers has found that it provided no benefit to the recovery of patients who had undergone cardiac bypass surgery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, praying just increases the likelihood of bad outcomes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials
> 
> 
> Religious traditions across the world display beliefs in healing through prayer. The healing powers of prayer have been examined in triple-blind, randomized controlled trials. We illustrate randomized controlled trials on prayer and healing, with one ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think Watfly?  Factual enough for you?


Iʻm going through death certs for that date.  Be patient.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> I highly doubt that, given that I took it from the exact same website that you used to assert that the 10/2 7-day average death rate in FL was 17 people a day.  At this point, given that same number is now at 75 a day and rising, you and your anti-vax/mask friends are just going to have to claim everyone is dying in motorcycle accidents.  You might also want to direct all the "prayer warriors" to the right cause of death though, because they seem to be wasting their time on the non-existent Covid people. That said, it turns out God doesn't give a shit about anyone's prayers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds It Has No Power to Heal
> 
> 
> The largest study yet on the therapeutic power of prayer by strangers has found that it provided no benefit to the recovery of patients who had undergone cardiac bypass surgery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, praying just increases the likelihood of bad outcomes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials
> 
> 
> Religious traditions across the world display beliefs in healing through prayer. The healing powers of prayer have been examined in triple-blind, randomized controlled trials. We illustrate randomized controlled trials on prayer and healing, with one ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think Watfly?  Factual enough for you?


Well I'm agnostic, so again your barking up the wrong tree.  I would say if people are praying thinking the prayers are going to change an outcome, I would say they are going to be disappointed most of the time.  If there is evidence that prayers can influence god(s) to change the outcome of something, I haven't seen it.  However, I seriously doubt praying makes outcomes worse.  Like the one study said there are too many scientific restrictions to study the outcomes of prayer.

Praying provides many people with comfort and strength and I fully support it.  It might not change the outcomes of others, but it has to the power to potentially change your mindset and motivation.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Iʻm going through death certs for that date.  Be patient.


I see, this is your way of simply denying that the people that FL is (belatedly) admitting died of Covid did not die of Covid.  What do you think Watfly, does this support your theory that the right wing nut jobs "tend to post facts"?


----------



## Grace T.

Ivermectin as a SARS-CoV-2 Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis Method in Healthcare Workers: A Propensity Score-Matched Retrospective Cohort Study - PubMed
					

In 28 days of follow-up, significant protection of ivermectin preventing the infection from SARS-CoV-2 was observed: 1.8% compared to those who did not take it (6.6%; p-value = 0.006), with a risk reduction of 74% (HR 0.26, 95% CI [0.10,0.71]). Conclusions: These results suggest that...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I see, this is your way of simply denying that the people that FL is (belatedly) admitting died of Covid did not die of Covid.  What do you think Watfly, does this support your theory that the right wing nut jobs "tend to post facts"?


I'm trying grasp your point?  what exactly is it?  People in florida are or are not dying of Covid?  Aren't they dying at slightly more than the  rate of  CA (per 100,000?)?

I'm sure adjustment for age and other factors are in play?  Or would you rather insult people and post about deceased people?


----------



## Grace T.

Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial
					

The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.




					www.jpost.com


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> I'm trying grasp your point?  what exactly is it?  People in florida are or are not dying of Covid?  Aren't they dying at slightly more than the  rate of  CA (per 100,000?)?
> 
> I'm sure adjustment for age and other factors are in play?  Or would you rather insult people and post about deceased people?


Bruddah IZ previously posted a chart showing that only 17 people per day were dying of Covid in FL as of 10/2.  He posted it in support of how great FL has done to control Covid by doing nothing. I pointed out to him that the chart is misleading in that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths, so that the actual death rate for this time period is actually much, much higher, as time will tell when FL eventually has no choice but to report deaths for that date.  Bruddah IZ responded with a pack of lies.  And Watfly followed up by claiming his right wing friends "tend to" provide facts, which is insane.

My point is that FL is doing a terrible job, and certainly much worse than what Bruddah IZ knows is an inaccurate and misleading graph.  FL is doing terrible and will soon have 2x the death rate of CA.  My point is that Bruddah IZ and his right wing nut job friends will say any lie, no matter how demonstrably false, to support their agenda, and weak-minded people like Watfly will lap it up. Are you one of them?  Do you believe that only 17 people a day were dying in FL as of Oct. 2nd as Bruddah IZ claimed, or do you believe that number is much higher based on the exact same updated chart from the exact same website?

If you don't want to hear about dead people and learn what behavior led directly to their unnecessary deaths, then don't hang out at a youth soccer website.  Sheesh.  If you don't want people to insult others here, then maybe you should say something to bruddah iz, desert hound, the strict constructionist and crush.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Bruddah IZ previously posted a chart showing that only 17 people per day were dying of Covid in FL as of 10/2.  He posted it in support of how great FL has done to control Covid by doing nothing. I pointed out to him that the chart is misleading in that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths, so that the actual death rate for this time period is actually much, much higher, as time will tell when FL eventually has no choice but to report deaths for that date.  Bruddah IZ responded with a pack of lies.  And Watfly followed up by claiming his right wing friends "tend to" provide facts, which is insane.
> 
> My point is that FL is doing a terrible job, and certainly much worse than what Bruddah IZ knows is an inaccurate and misleading graph.  FL is doing terrible and will soon have 2x the death rate of CA.  My point is that Bruddah IZ and his right wing nut job friends will say any lie, no matter how demonstrably false, to support their agenda, and weak-minded people like Watfly will lap it up. Are you one of them?  Do you believe that only 17 people a day were dying in FL as of Oct. 2nd as Bruddah IZ claimed, or do you believe that number is much higher based on the exact same updated chart from the exact same website?
> 
> If you don't want to hear about dead people and learn what behavior led directly to their unnecessary deaths, then don't hang out at a youth soccer website.  Sheesh.  If you don't want people to insult others here, then maybe you should say something to bruddah iz, desert hound, the strict constructionist and crush.


Youʻre babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Three Neat Tricks That Will End The Pandemic:

1. Acknowledge that the vaccines are safe and effective

2. Acknowledge that natural immunity is also very strong

3. Acknowledge that kids are not and never have been at serious risk


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial
> 
> 
> The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jpost.com


Uh oh be prepared for Aspirin to be labeled as horse paste soon


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> Bruddah IZ previously posted a chart showing that only 17 people per day were dying of Covid in FL as of 10/2.  He posted it in support of how great FL has done to control Covid by doing nothing. I pointed out to him that the chart is misleading in that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths, so that the actual death rate for this time period is actually much, much higher, as time will tell when FL eventually has no choice but to report deaths for that date.  Bruddah IZ responded with a pack of lies.  And Watfly followed up by claiming his right wing friends "tend to" provide facts, which is insane.
> 
> My point is that FL is doing a terrible job, and certainly much worse than what Bruddah IZ knows is an inaccurate and misleading graph.  FL is doing terrible and will soon have 2x the death rate of CA.  My point is that Bruddah IZ and his right wing nut job friends will say any lie, no matter how demonstrably false, to support their agenda, and weak-minded people like Watfly will lap it up. Are you one of them?  Do you believe that only 17 people a day were dying in FL as of Oct. 2nd as Bruddah IZ claimed, or do you believe that number is much higher based on the exact same updated chart from the exact same website?
> 
> If you don't want to hear about dead people and learn what behavior led directly to their unnecessary deaths, then don't hang out at a youth soccer website.  Sheesh.  If you don't want people to insult others here, then maybe you should say something to bruddah iz, desert hound, the strict constructionist and crush.


Florida’s daily cases are plummeting, similar to Biden’s approval ratings . Wonder who reaches the bottom first


----------



## Brav520

Bruddah IZ said:


> Three Neat Tricks That Will End The Pandemic:
> 
> 1. Acknowledge that the vaccines are safe and effective
> 
> 2. Acknowledge that natural immunity is also very strong
> 
> 3. Acknowledge that kids are not and never have been at serious risk


why isn’t #2 happening?

why is the morbidly obese Governor of Illinois seen as caring about his health because he is vaccinated and wears a mask?

why are the people telling you to be scared about Covid showing you time and time again they aren’t actually worried about Covid?

why are  we letting people into our country from the southern border without getting the vaccine , are they even being tested ?

why is Fauci still here on my TV and telling me if it’s ok for my kids to trick or treat or gather for Xmas?

Trust the experts , Trust the science !!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

1.  One-year sustained cellular and humoral immunities of COVID-19 convalescents, by Jie Zhang, Hao Lin, Beiwei Ye, Min Zhao, Jianbo Zhan, et al. Clinical Infectious Diseases, October 5, 2021. “SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG antibodies, and also NAb can persist among over 95% COVID-19 convalescents from 6 months to 12 months after disease onset. At least 19/71 (26%) of COVID-19 convalescents (double positive in ELISA and MCLIA) had detectable circulating IgM antibody against SARS-CoV-2 at 12m post-disease onset. Notably, the percentages of convalescents with positive SARS-CoV-2-specific T-cell responses (at least one of the SARS-CoV-2 antigen S1, S2, M and N protein) were 71/76 (93%) and 67/73 (92%) at 6m and 12m, respectively. Furthermore, both antibody and T-cell memory levels of the convalescents were positively associated with their disease severity.”


----------



## Brav520

Bruddah IZ said:


> View attachment 11843
> 
> In an article published by New York Times reporter Apoorva Mandavilli on Wednesday, Times readers were told that “nearly 900,000 children have been hospitalized with COVID-19 since the pandemic began.”
> 
> A correction issued on Thursday notes that the correct number is 63,000 between August 2020 and October 2021, which means Mandavilli exaggerated the number of child hospitalizations by 837,000 cases. Approximately 500 American children have eventually died from the disease. The exaggeration was included in a report on the debate surrounding whether and how to vaccinate children.


NYT had an excellent Covid reporter but they fired him earlier this year ( I’ll let you decide if it was justified or not )

now they are stuck with this exceptional writer that the corrections to this story were almost as long as the article itself. She also claimed that looking into the lab leak theory was racist


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Bruddah IZ previously posted a chart showing that only 17 people per day were dying of Covid in FL as of 10/2.  He posted it in support of how great FL has done to control Covid by doing nothing. I pointed out to him that the chart is misleading in that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths, so that the actual death rate for this time period is actually much, much higher, as time will tell when FL eventually has no choice but to report deaths for that date.  Bruddah IZ responded with a pack of lies.  And Watfly followed up by claiming his right wing friends "tend to" provide facts, which is insane.
> 
> My point is that FL is doing a terrible job, and certainly much worse than what Bruddah IZ knows is an inaccurate and misleading graph.  FL is doing terrible and will soon have 2x the death rate of CA.  My point is that Bruddah IZ and his right wing nut job friends will say any lie, no matter how demonstrably false, to support their agenda, and weak-minded people like Watfly will lap it up. Are you one of them?  Do you believe that only 17 people a day were dying in FL as of Oct. 2nd as Bruddah IZ claimed, or do you believe that number is much higher based on the exact same updated chart from the exact same website?
> 
> If you don't want to hear about dead people and learn what behavior led directly to their unnecessary deaths, then don't hang out at a youth soccer website.  Sheesh.  If you don't want people to insult others here, then maybe you should say something to bruddah iz, desert hound, the strict constructionist and crush.


You really don't have a point, but that's neither here nor there.  How are you predicting the death rate? Your grasp in general about the subject (any subject, from what I can tell) is very basic and is limited to talking points, insults, and posturing.  Amusing comes to mind.

Go ahead and post about dead people, shows how little you know about death.  Your well within your rights to post almost whatever you want.  Doesn't really bother me. 

Usually people hang out on a youth soccer forum because they have children who play.  That's normally the ticket to entry.  If you choose to wander off into other conversations, so be it.  Maybe you have a child, maybe you don't. I don't really know.  Gut tells me you don't.  Your ability to entertain is enough -  I thank you for that.


----------



## crush

Hi fellas and hi to Grace T.  I've missed you all.  I dont have time to read up on the last week.  I have been driving across the country the last 7 days. Getting ready to create and *build* a *better* way that is not on my *back*, so to speak  and to live and do business as one.  I can't share all the details yet but my wife and I are super excited to build a better tomorrow for us and others who want fairness and honesty as #1 in their mission statement. With that said, our country is hurting all over.  I went fast so it's not a sampling of everyone so please take with a grain of salt. I got to North Carolina in 3 and half days.  My HOT wife and I are now celebrating our 24th year of marriage in Gallup, NM because snow decided to come and we pulled over to be safe and warm.  It's all about the next move.  I love our great country by the way and I pray we can all heal some day.  One of the great parts of our quick business trip was meeting my wife's ancestors from Oklahoma and North Carolina.  Cherokee are amazing people. 1200 mile walk they were forced to do back in the day.  I want to also be blunt with all of you with what my wife and I witnessed in each state  The happiest and most friendly of all the states was North Carolina, hands down.  I mean, super nice and the best customer service.  New Mexico is least happy of them all.  My award for the State with the most mask enforcement and obedience from their peoples is New Mexico.  Mask everywhere and enforced.  Most of the people are obese as well and look Misérables.  In fact, I saw so many obese people and most also had a mask on.  Their afraid to die.  It's real fear.  The look on their faces says it all.  I think their all in with the mask life and it shows in NM. North Carolina folks come in 2nd place regarding mask rules.  Half the peeps had mask on but were happy about it and are just following mandates they told me.  I drove through Texas quickly so not sure about that State but Oklahoma was fun and people were NOT wearing a mask.  The Indians we met were 100% never ever getting the jab.  My wife's relative said her father told her that his dad told him never to take anything from anyone.  Work for self or be a slave to the system was his take.  Arkansas had the fastest gas pumps.  Very hot and humid and people look beat up in these small towns.  I stayed in Forrest City, AK just outside Memphis TN.  I had a great time talking with my bros from another.  I am a bold man and I have zero fear and I just want to love everyone.  Everyone was wearing a mask but they never told me I had to.  I told a few of the hard workers that were all going to love each other better and make sure all is ok.  Black Mountain and Blue Ridge Mountain was amazing as well.  Last but not least, the supply lines are having a big impact.  We went to Denny's last night and they were out of just about anything healthy.  I spoke to many folks across our country and their starting to feel the impact on the cargo ships sitting out in the Pacific.   Anyway, I love you all and I hope for the best for all of us fellow Americans.  Love is the only way out.  Speak the truth in love to each other.  The truth I have learned has some good, some bad and even some ugly.  The truth is the truth.


----------



## Grace T.

Doesn't go into the federal v. state argument, but a good overview of Jacobson and vaccine mandates....









						Vaccine Mandates and Jacobson v. Massachusetts: A Closer Look | RealClearPolitics
					

Every now and again, an otherwise arcane legal topic suddenly becomes relevant to contemporary political debate. At that point, general commentary suddenly...




					www.realclearpolitics.com


----------



## Grace T.

Facing major campus disruption and firings, LAUSD extends staff COVID-vaccine deadline
					

Employees had faced termination if not fully immunized againt COVID-19 by Oct. 15. But they'll still need their shots.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Usually people hang out on a youth soccer forum because they have children who play.  That's normally the ticket to entry.  If you choose to wander off into other conversations, so be it.  Maybe you have a child, maybe you don't. I don't really know.  Gut tells me you don't.  Your ability to entertain is enough -  I thank you for that.


Well they act like a child with their use of insults and profanity like a pre-pubescent 7th grader on the playground with a new found vocabulary.  Although, I appreciate their use of the word "dumbf*&#ery"  I need to add that to my rotation.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Youʻre babbling.


You have nothing to say in defense of your false assertion that FL's death rate went to 17 a day as of Oct. 2nd, or that it's death rate has declined steeply and dramatically.  As I explained to you earlier, your own chart was false and misleading because FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths.  As I made very clear to you, that number will increase dramatically over time.  After one week, it has already increased to 75. 

You are the perfect example of the dumbfuck right winger.  You believe even the most ridiculous things that DeSantis and Trump tell you because that is what you want to believe.  When it is proven definitively wrong based on your own chart, rather than accept reality, you just deny its existence completely.  It must be very hard living a life in which virtually everything you believe gets proven to be complete b.s., leaving you with  two options, either complete humiliation that you've been a dumbfuck or a complete disassociation from reality to preserve your fragile ego.  All of you seem to choose the latter every single time.

FL has the best dead anti-vaxxers by the way:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q2lmit


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q3xqrq


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plisk7


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkm9y2


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn3xyr
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pfnlek/florida_man_posts_misleading_statistics_about/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pl50do/and_another_one_cant_stop_florida/


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> You really don't have a point, but that's neither here nor there.  How are you predicting the death rate? Your grasp in general about the subject (any subject, from what I can tell) is very basic and is limited to talking points, insults, and posturing.  Amusing comes to mind.
> 
> Go ahead and post about dead people, shows how little you know about death.  Your well within your rights to post almost whatever you want.  Doesn't really bother me.
> 
> Usually people hang out on a youth soccer forum because they have children who play.  That's normally the ticket to entry.  If you choose to wander off into other conversations, so be it.  Maybe you have a child, maybe you don't. I don't really know.  Gut tells me you don't.  Your ability to entertain is enough -  I thank you for that.


I am not predicting a death rate, I am just showing you the actual graphs from the same website that Bruddah claims show that FL's death rate declined to 17 a day effective Oct. 2nd. 

I have questions for you.  Do you believe that the graph that Bruddah provided which he claimed showed an average death rate of 17 per day as of 10/2 in FL is accurate?  If so, how do you explain that that the same graph is now at 75 a day as of 10/2? Why are you criticizing me for discussing this and not Bruddah since he is the one who brought it up AND provided intentionally false information?  Are you a right wing nut job also? Or do you just think that right wing nut jobs should be able to say whatever dumbfuck things they want, no matter how false, without pushback?  Do you even understand the difference between facts and opinion? Why is it exactly that you think that right wing nut jobs are the only ones who should be allowed to say what they want?


----------



## Grace T.

I'm sure dad4 will appreciate this....Covid math....









						How to Fix Our Broken Relationship With COVID Math
					

Four rules to improve reporting about risk.




					www.persuasion.community


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I'm sure dad4 will appreciate this....Covid math....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Fix Our Broken Relationship With COVID Math
> 
> 
> Four rules to improve reporting about risk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.persuasion.community


I will say that San Diego County does an excellent job of breaking down its Covid statistics.  Simple, straightforward and meaningful.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I'm sure dad4 will appreciate this....Covid math....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Fix Our Broken Relationship With COVID Math
> 
> 
> Four rules to improve reporting about risk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.persuasion.community


Covid math for San Diego County:


San Diego CountyHosp. %Death % Hospital- OfOfSurvivedAge izations PopulationDeathsPopulationCovid0-9               3730.0860%​                -  0.0000%​100.0000%​10-19 years               3930.0906%​                 20.0005%​99.9995%​20-29 years               9910.1867%​               200.0038%​99.9962%​30-39 years           1,4620.2984%​               400.0082%​99.9918%​40-49 years           1,8080.4530%​            1400.0351%​99.9649%​50-59 years           2,9590.7316%​            3850.0952%​99.9048%​60-69 years           3,5711.0494%​            8350.2454%​99.7546%​70-79 years           3,0541.5278%​            9570.4787%​99.5213%​80+ years           3,1122.5970%​         1,7251.4395%​98.5605%​Total         17,7230.5288%​         4,1040.1224%​99.8776%​

I can't find California hospitalizations by age, but deaths paint a similar picture.


CaliforniaDeaths %of Survived  AgeDeathsPopulation Covid <511​0.0005%​99.9995%​5-1726​0.0004%​99.9996%​18-341,115​0.0116%​99.9884%​35-494,179​0.0548%​99.9452%​50-597,794​0.1578%​99.8422%​60-646,569​0.2818%​99.7182%​65-697,449​0.3771%​99.6229%​70-748,016​0.4948%​99.5052%​75-798,144​0.7634%​99.2366%​80+26,041​1.6900%​98.3100%​Total69,351​0.1755%​99.8245%​


----------



## Grace T.

Funny...tomato meter 91% fresh....audience score 2% fresh.









						Fauci
					

With his signature blend of scientific acumen, candor and integrity, Dr. Anthony Fauci became America's most unlikely cultural icon during COVID-19. A world-renowned infectious disease specialist and the longest-serving public health leader in Washington, D.C., he has valiantly overseen the U.S...




					www.rottentomatoes.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Covid math for San Diego County:
> 
> 
> San Diego CountyHosp. %Death %Hospital-OfOfSurvivedAgeizationsPopulationDeathsPopulationCovid0-9               3730.0860%​                - 0.0000%​100.0000%​10-19 years               3930.0906%​                 20.0005%​99.9995%​20-29 years               9910.1867%​               200.0038%​99.9962%​30-39 years           1,4620.2984%​               400.0082%​99.9918%​40-49 years           1,8080.4530%​            1400.0351%​99.9649%​50-59 years           2,9590.7316%​            3850.0952%​99.9048%​60-69 years           3,5711.0494%​            8350.2454%​99.7546%​70-79 years           3,0541.5278%​            9570.4787%​99.5213%​80+ years           3,1122.5970%​         1,7251.4395%​98.5605%​Total         17,7230.5288%​         4,1040.1224%​99.8776%​
> 
> I can't find California hospitalizations by age, but deaths paint a similar picture.
> 
> 
> CaliforniaDeaths %ofSurvived AgeDeathsPopulationCovid<511​0.0005%​99.9995%​5-1726​0.0004%​99.9996%​18-341,115​0.0116%​99.9884%​35-494,179​0.0548%​99.9452%​50-597,794​0.1578%​99.8422%​60-646,569​0.2818%​99.7182%​65-697,449​0.3771%​99.6229%​70-748,016​0.4948%​99.5052%​75-798,144​0.7634%​99.2366%​80+26,041​1.6900%​98.3100%​Total69,351​0.1755%​99.8245%​


what's even more striking is the vaxxed/nonvaxxed stats.  An unvaxxed 10-15 year old has less of a risk of death, hospitalization, and long COVID than a vaxxed 45-50 year old.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> what's even more striking is the vaxxed/nonvaxxed stats.  An unvaxxed 10-15 year old has less of a risk of death, hospitalization, and long COVID than a vaxxed 45-50 year old.


yeah there is a  comprehensive study out of England that is showing the risk factors particularly under 12 are less than actual vaccinated 30-40 year olds


----------



## Desert Hound

Brav520 said:


> yeah there is a  comprehensive study out of England that is showing the risk factors particularly under 12 are less than actual vaccinated 30-40 year olds


Not even sure if we need a study on that. 

CDC produces stats. 

We know there are 70 million people in the17 and under range. 

19 months into this there are roughly 480 deaths total. 

They have no risk whatsoever.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> I'm sure dad4 will appreciate this....Covid math....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Fix Our Broken Relationship With COVID Math
> 
> 
> Four rules to improve reporting about risk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.persuasion.community


He and others have been very bad at the math. 

Or should we say how the math is interpreted and reported. 

News stories, etc as the article points out do not put things into context whatsoever. This feeds into the fear people have.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Not even sure if we need a study on that.
> 
> CDC produces stats.
> 
> We know there are 70 million people in the17 and under range.
> 
> 19 months into this there are roughly 480 deaths total.
> 
> They have no risk whatsoever.


Interesting sequence of words.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> He and others have been very bad at the math.
> 
> Or should we say how the math is interpreted and reported.
> 
> News stories, etc as the article points out do not put things into context whatsoever. This feeds into the fear people have.


Who was it that interpreted 480 deaths as "no risk whatsoever"?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> what's even more striking is the vaxxed/nonvaxxed stats.  An unvaxxed 10-15 year old has less of a risk of death, hospitalization, and long COVID than a vaxxed 45-50 year old.


What are the odds that they kill their 45-50 year old parents?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> what's even more striking is the vaxxed/nonvaxxed stats.  An unvaxxed 10-15 year old has less of a risk of death, hospitalization, and long COVID than a vaxxed 45-50 year old.





Brav520 said:


> yeah there is a  comprehensive study out of England that is showing the risk factors particularly under 12 are less than actual vaccinated 30-40 year olds





Desert Hound said:


> He and others have been very bad at the math.
> 
> Or should we say how the math is interpreted and reported.
> 
> News stories, etc as the article points out do not put things into context whatsoever. This feeds into the fear people have.


Unfortunately, the risk from Covid to children is not a compelling argument for the Fear Factory.  What is compelling to them is that children could possibly spread it and kill vulnerable adults.  You know, because in today's society its children's responsibility to protect adults.  Children had to sacrifice their education for the benefit of fearful adults.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds that they kill their 45-50 year old parents?


Something far less than .0351%.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds that they kill their 45-50 year old parents?





watfly said:


> Something far less than .0351%.


.0351% is for 40-49 so lets assume conservatively that 45-50 would make up 3/4 of that number, so you reduce it to .0263%.  One study says that adults are 2x as likely to spread Covid as children.  If you believe that then you would reduce that percentage to a third, which gives you .0088% chance of a child spreading it to and killing an adult, or 99.9912% chance of a child not killing an adult.  Rough math but you get the picture.


----------



## Brav520

If zero Covid , zero death, zero hospitalization is the goal we will never be there 

I’d like a defined endgame here , it’s interesting we can’t get that from our esteemed leaders


----------



## Desert Hound

So...long term affects still not known.

We are starting to see some stuff that isn't good.

Remember in this age group, there really isn't any risk. And yet our gov wants to MANDATE the vaxx.

It is irresponsible.


“For patients in Israel’s largest healthcare system, Clalit Health Services, the estimate of myocarditis was 2.13 cases per 100,000 vaccinated persons, reaching as high as 10.69 cases per 100,000 in men and boys ages 16 to 29. A separate study using Israel’s government database, capturing active and passive periods of surveillance for myocarditis, *supported the higher risk in young men*. In this report, males of all ages had myocarditis occur at 0.64 cases per 100,000 persons after the first dose and 3.83 cases per 100,000 after the second dose — with the incidence increasing to 1.34 and 15.07 per 100,000 after the first and second doses, respectively, for teenage boys ages 16 to 19. Both papers were published online in the _New England Journal of Medicine_.”

Plus: “Compared with historical data from 2017 to 2019, *myocarditis was more than five times as likely after mRNA vaccination in the overall population*. Compared with people who remained unvaccinated during the study period (from Dec. 20, 2020, to May 31, 2021), fully vaccinated individuals had about double the risk at 30 days after the second dose.”









						Israeli Data Favor Higher Estimates of Post-Vax Myocarditis
					

Results echo the controversial VAERS study from September




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Need to study long term affects before we mandate people get a vaccine.

Most people have little to no risks. To mandate them to take a vaxx that has not had long terms studies is poor policy.

“Chief Epidemiologist Þórólfur Guðnason has decided that Iceland will halt the use of the Moderna vaccine in Iceland. RÚV reports that the decision was made after reviewing new data from the Nordic countries, which shows an increased incidence of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle (or myocaridum), as well as pericarditis, an inflammation in the membrane surrounding the heart (or pericardium), among people vaccinated with Moderna. . . . Sweden currently restricts the use of Moderna to individuals who were born after 1991. Norway and Denmark recommend that Pfizer be used in lieu of Moderna for children aged 12 – 17.”









						Moderna Use on Pause in Iceland
					

Chief Epidemiologist Þórólfur Guðnason has decided that Iceland will halt the use of the Moderna vaccine in Iceland. RÚV reports that the decision was made after reviewing new data from the Nordic countries, which shows an increased incidence of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle...




					www.icelandreview.com


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I am not predicting a death rate, I am just showing you the actual graphs from the same website that Bruddah claims show that FL's death rate declined to 17 a day effective Oct. 2nd.
> 
> I have questions for you.  Do you believe that the graph that Bruddah provided which he claimed showed an average death rate of 17 per day as of 10/2 in FL is accurate?  If so, how do you explain that that the same graph is now at 75 a day as of 10/2? Why are you criticizing me for discussing this and not Bruddah since he is the one who brought it up AND provided intentionally false information?  *Are you a right wing nut job also*? Or do you just think that right wing nut jobs should be able to say whatever dumbfuck things they want, no matter how false, without pushback?  *Do you even understand the difference between facts and opinion*? Why is it exactly that you think that right wing nut jobs are the only ones who should be allowed to say what they want?


Hopefully few people are coming to youth soccer forums to enrich their knowledge on everything/anything covid.  But feel free to lead the charge on exposing  misinformation/disinformation, it's not a bad thing..  Your  tactic of twisting views and words is a bit tiresome.  The criticism directed at you isn't centered around the information you provide, but rather your engagement method - which likely amuses those that counter your opinion and do it on purpose to see you go off the rail.  You are an easy target.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad looks upon the Australian response as something we should emulate.

Watch the vid.









						Police showed up at this Aussie’s door to question him about Facebook posts which showed him at an "illegal" protest and his response is exactly what yours should be if this ever happens to you
					

Wow, I cannot believe they are at the point in Australia where police are showing up to your door with printouts of your Facebook page asking if this is you at an "illegal" protest.




					notthebee.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is an idea for a halloween costume.


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> So...long term affects still not known.
> 
> We are starting to see some stuff that isn't good.
> 
> Remember in this age group, there really isn't any risk. And yet our gov wants to MANDATE the vaxx.
> 
> It is irresponsible.
> 
> 
> “For patients in Israel’s largest healthcare system, Clalit Health Services, the estimate of myocarditis was 2.13 cases per 100,000 vaccinated persons, reaching as high as 10.69 cases per 100,000 in men and boys ages 16 to 29. A separate study using Israel’s government database, capturing active and passive periods of surveillance for myocarditis, *supported the higher risk in young men*. In this report, males of all ages had myocarditis occur at 0.64 cases per 100,000 persons after the first dose and 3.83 cases per 100,000 after the second dose — with the incidence increasing to 1.34 and 15.07 per 100,000 after the first and second doses, respectively, for teenage boys ages 16 to 19. Both papers were published online in the _New England Journal of Medicine_.”
> 
> Plus: “Compared with historical data from 2017 to 2019, *myocarditis was more than five times as likely after mRNA vaccination in the overall population*. Compared with people who remained unvaccinated during the study period (from Dec. 20, 2020, to May 31, 2021), fully vaccinated individuals had about double the risk at 30 days after the second dose.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli Data Favor Higher Estimates of Post-Vax Myocarditis
> 
> 
> Results echo the controversial VAERS study from September
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com


The funny or sad thing about this is both here and other places we are being told they have studied the vaxxes and they are safe. 

That is untrue as it relates to studies on possible long term affects. 

We still dont know. 

But the above example shows that they are finding out certain vaxxes and certain age groups do not go well together. 

What else might we find? 

The fact that we don't know if/to what extent there are long terms issues with certain age groups, demographics, etc. all makes the rather strong case that we should not be mandating people to get a vaxx.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> So I checked back in with FL as you asked.  That 7 day moving average of 17 deaths per day that you thought was so great is now at 75 - because FL holds back deaths for the express purpose of duping dumbfucks like you. It turns out that the decrease is neither sudden nor sharp.  Too bad your dumbfuck friend is as easily duped as you. The media has already gotten to the bottom of this, which is that FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths so that recent deaths are not reported for weeks, giving the false impression that it's doing well.


7 day average deaths FL .......wait for it......4.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> 7 day average deaths FL .......wait for it......4.
> View attachment 11854


I checked with dad as to the reason why the number was so low. 

Turns out everyone went to the bars around the state, and now there are only 100 or so people left in the entire state. Therefore that 4 number is still actually very high and concerning.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> I checked with dad as to the reason why the number was so low.
> 
> Turns out everyone went to the bars around the state, and now there are only 100 or so people left in the entire state. Therefore that 4 number is still actually very high and concerning.


Turns out that a bunch of the elderly in FL are being blamed for aging.  Apparently mask can stop Corona but not aging.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> I will say that San Diego County does an excellent job of breaking down its Covid statistics.  Simple, straightforward and meaningful.


Hence the no masking.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds that they kill their 45-50 year old parents?


_*1. One size fits none: Don't frame risk in terms of a generic person*_*. *

Specific demographic factors such as race and ethnicity, obesity, diabetes, and other comorbidities make an enormous difference in determining risk of a bad COVID-19 outcome. But the single most important risk factor, age, is often relegated to a few short lines in too much news coverage. Downplaying the huge decreased risk of mortality in children compared with mortality risk in the elderly is simply not factual reporting.

It can be tempting to frame risk using a generic person who is ageless and has no particular health status—but this makes accurate discussion of risk impossible. As _The New York Times_ reported, in response to the question, “What are the chances somebody with COVID-19 must be hospitalized?” 41% of Democrats and 28% of Republicans surveyed answered that the risk was “over 50%.” Not only did answers differ widely by political affiliation, but a large swath of respondents was not even close to a correct answer.

Part of the misunderstanding on display here is that none of us identify as a generic “somebody.” The correct answer to this question depends greatly on age, and other risk factors, of the individual. The actual risk of COVID-19 hospitalization for a child under 18 who has COVID-19 is less than 0.2% per infection, or less than 1% per diagnosed case by current estimates; but it is 23% for an adult 65 or older, and even higher for those over 65 with comorbidities. Respondents to _The New York Times _poll entirely missed this distinction.


----------



## Grace T.

Completely unscientific of course...but if true the death rate is no higher than the rest of the community that's a real indictment on NPIs.  Should be studied.

For the record, everyone drinking from the same wine and coming down with coronavirus the same week is a bridge too far for me.









						How Amish Communities Became The First To Achieve "Herd Immunity" From Covid-19 Without Higher Death Rate, Shutdown, Or Vaccines
					

"Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson traveled to Lancaster, Pennsylvania to see how Amish communities handled Covid-19 without electricity or television.  "There's no evidence of any more deaths among the Amish than in places that shut down tight-- some claim there were fewer here. That's...




					www.realclearpolitics.com


----------



## Grace T.

The Elite Are Unmasked. What About Those Who Serve Them?
					

The Elite Are Unmasked. What About Those Who Serve Them?




					www.bloombergquint.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Well they act like a child with their use of insults and profanity like a pre-pubescent 7th grader on the playground with a new found vocabulary.  Although, I appreciate their use of the word "dumbf*&#ery"  I need to add that to my rotation.


Ha! I guess misanthropy has at least one "positive" effect.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> yeah there is a  comprehensive study out of England that is showing the risk factors particularly under 12 are less than actual vaccinated 30-40 year olds


It's because they wear masks better.


----------



## Grace T.

Texas joins some other states in a showdown over which law (federal or state) is supreme in this field....









						Texas governor bans Covid-19 vaccine mandates by any employer in state
					

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott on Monday issued an executive order banning all state entities, including private employers, from enforcing vaccine mandates, the latest escalation in the Republican's resistance to public health measures during the Covid-19 pandemic.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Completely unscientific of course...but if true the death rate is no higher than the rest of the community that's a real indictment on NPIs.  Should be studied.
> 
> For the record, everyone drinking from the same wine and coming down with coronavirus the same week is a bridge too far for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Amish Communities Became The First To Achieve "Herd Immunity" From Covid-19 Without Higher Death Rate, Shutdown, Or Vaccines
> 
> 
> "Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson traveled to Lancaster, Pennsylvania to see how Amish communities handled Covid-19 without electricity or television.  "There's no evidence of any more deaths among the Amish than in places that shut down tight-- some claim there were fewer here. That's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realclearpolitics.com


Yep a bridge too far for me as well. 

That said the rest is interesting. As they just went along with normal life and didn't experience anything like was predicted.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Yep a bridge too far for me as well.


Well, for blackberry _manischewitz, sure but for a 2003 Domaine Louis Chave Ermitage Cuveé ,Cathelin … maybe not_


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Who was it that interpreted 480 deaths as "no risk whatsoever"?


You have a greater risk of being killed by a Vending Machine….so yah.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Completely unscientific of course...but if true the death rate is no higher than the rest of the community that's a real indictment on NPIs.  Should be studied.
> 
> For the record, everyone drinking from the same wine and coming down with coronavirus the same week is a bridge too far for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Amish Communities Became The First To Achieve "Herd Immunity" From Covid-19 Without Higher Death Rate, Shutdown, Or Vaccines
> 
> 
> "Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson traveled to Lancaster, Pennsylvania to see how Amish communities handled Covid-19 without electricity or television.  "There's no evidence of any more deaths among the Amish than in places that shut down tight-- some claim there were fewer here. That's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realclearpolitics.com


Gee, a story built entirely on anecdotes.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds that they kill their 45-50 year old parents?


Vaccinated or Unvaccinated?
Nevertheless, well below 2% and that is IF they catch it, according to Statistics posted by CDC and other health organizations.

Maybe Reddit can help you answer that question.  Since that seems to be your key source of data and facts.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Gee, a story built entirely on anecdotes.


Sounds a lot like those making our Covid policy…..


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker4Life said:


> Sounds a lot like those making our Covid policy…..


Yeah I seem to recall the entire mask policy was built around a "study" of two hairdressers that dad4 liked to throw around here.

I also like how our dear friend completely ignores the part where I say "completely unscientific" and that it should be studied further.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Gee, a story built entirely on anecdotes.


The whole pandemic was built on anecdotes.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> You have nothing to say in defense of your false assertion that FL's death rate went to 17 a day as of Oct. 2nd, or that it's death rate has declined steeply and dramatically.  As I explained to you earlier, your own chart was false and misleading because FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths.  As I made very clear to you, that number will increase dramatically over time.  After one week, it has already increased to 75.
> 
> You are the perfect example of the dumbfuck right winger.  You believe even the most ridiculous things that DeSantis and Trump tell you because that is what you want to believe.  When it is proven definitively wrong based on your own chart, rather than accept reality, you just deny its existence completely.  It must be very hard living a life in which virtually everything you believe gets proven to be complete b.s., leaving you with  two options, either complete humiliation that you've been a dumbfuck or a complete disassociation from reality to preserve your fragile ego.  All of you seem to choose the latter every single time.
> 
> FL has the best dead anti-vaxxers by the way:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q2lmit
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q3xqrq
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plisk7
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkm9y2
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn3xyr
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pfnlek/florida_man_posts_misleading_statistics_about/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pl50do/and_another_one_cant_stop_florida/


Apparently dumbfucks are impervious to shame, they just double down on stupid while ignoring reality. There’s always a likeminded “expert” to quote, even when they both get it wrong.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> Apparently dumbfucks are impervious to shame, they just double down on stupid while ignoring reality. There’s always a likeminded “expert” to quote, even when they both get it wrong.


Man…we feel the same way!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah I seem to recall the entire mask policy was built around a "study" of two hairdressers that dad4 liked to throw around here.
> 
> I also like how our dear friend completely ignores the part where I say "completely unscientific" and that it should be studied further.


I got the unscientific part, but the article was void of any traceable fact.  How many of the Amish community in question were vaccinated against covid (vaccination acceptance varies from one Amish community and family to another)?  How many died from covid?  The article contradicts itself about whether the Amish practiced any mask usage.  What is the basis for the statement that "We all got coronavirus"?  

I have been interested for years on the interface between Amish practices and modern technology since I have Amish inlaws (or, more properly, former-Amish inlaws, who still have Amish relatives).  They don't wire their houses with electricity, but they accept it in their shops and stores (such as gift shops catering to "English" tourists).  They tolerate solar panels and diesel generators to run electric farm equipment.  They won't have a telephone in the house, but they arrange for a payphone on a nearby roadside.  They won't buy health insurance per se, but they kick in to pay for medical care for members as needed.  They tax themselves to support modern local ambulance services (for which they have to hire non-Amish drivers), modern health clinics, and hospitals.  

The article seems to have been written by someone ignorant of all that background, who was paid by the word, and had a deadline to meet.


----------



## crush

From Don:
*"Everyone has a choice*. If he doesn’t want to do it, fine. Then he doesn’t have to do it, but one then must suffer the consequences of not doing it," Lemon said. "I think in the largest scope of all of this, it is all about America. Right? Humanity. We’re all one team, humanity. We’re supposed to be looking out for each other as a team and as a team you don’t just look out for what is just good for you."

"You have to look out at what’s good for the whole, which is a team, which is America, which is humanity, which is Kyrie Irving’s team," Lemon added. "He can’t say this is my personal thing and still be a part of that team because that’s not what is good for the collective goal of the team."

From Chris:
"You have the right to do something, doesn’t mean it’s right the way you're doing it. And that has just been lost in this perverse sense of prerogative that hey, I have the freedom — you have the freedom to walk into traffic. You know, we don’t suggest you do it," Cuomo said. 

*"We need to have the moral rectitude in our leaders that we demand of ourselves as Christians in our communities,"* he added. "So you’re not going to do something science tells you to do to keep yourself and others safe in your community out of some perverse sense of freedom just because you don’t have to?"


----------



## crush




----------



## GoldenGate

GoldenGate said:


> You have nothing to say in defense of your false assertion that FL's death rate went to 17 a day as of Oct. 2nd, or that it's death rate has declined steeply and dramatically.  As I explained to you earlier, your own chart was false and misleading because FL changed the way it reports Covid deaths.  As I made very clear to you, that number will increase dramatically over time.  After one week, it has already increased to 75.
> 
> You are the perfect example of the dumbfuck right winger.  You believe even the most ridiculous things that DeSantis and Trump tell you because that is what you want to believe.  When it is proven definitively wrong based on your own chart, rather than accept reality, you just deny its existence completely.  It must be very hard living a life in which virtually everything you believe gets proven to be complete b.s., leaving you with  two options, either complete humiliation that you've been a dumbfuck or a complete disassociation from reality to preserve your fragile ego.  All of you seem to choose the latter every single time.
> 
> FL has the best dead anti-vaxxers by the way:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q2lmit
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q3xqrq
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/plisk7
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pkm9y2
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pn3xyr
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pfnlek/florida_man_posts_misleading_statistics_about/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pl50do/and_another_one_cant_stop_florida/


Hey Bruddah iznoramus.  So that death rate in FL that you claimed was so great (17 a day as of Oct 2) is now showing 118 a day as of Oct 2 based on the same website that you used.  How does it feel to be a dumbfuck who is easily misled, but who is so embarrassed by your dumbfuckery that you have now completely disassociated yourself from reality? Based on your own website, it is very clear that the state you thought was doing so great is actually doing the absolute worst (other than maybe TX and AZ). 

And hey @what-happened, what happened? Why is it you're upset with me and not the person who is flat out lying to you at this website? Is it because you're also one of those people who is easily duped and wants to believe lies regardless of how ridiculous they are and how demonstrably false?  Do you believe the election was stolen? Obama is not an American citizen? What is the depth of your rabbit hole?  And how many more people do you think should be duped all the way to their death by claims like Bruddah iznoramus' that all this stuff about people dying of Covid is just a hoax, so no need for masks or microchipped vaccines?

Here is a fresh batch of believers from yesterday.





__





						r/HermanCainAward - (Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family
					

1,340 votes and 309 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - Texas Author Nominee, 2x Covidee, Writes Her Final Chapter, Claims Her Award. Prayer Warriors, Budesonide Demands Failed. Nominee Link in Comments.
					

1,132 votes and 374 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - Not a whole lot of posts, but her beliefs were made clear.
					

618 votes and 222 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - Pervy Pete posted prolifically, passed peacefully.
					

3,896 votes and 871 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				











						r/HermanCainAward - It was announced someone at my company passed away, looked at their profile and saw classic HCA. I just picked some posts from the past month...
					

646 votes and 140 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - “Pam” ponders all kinds of things except the idea that vaccines and masks might have saved her life.
					

575 votes and 259 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - Wisconsin Snowflake accepts her HCA
					

933 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - Officer Snowflake accepts a HCA
					

837 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com
				







__





						r/HermanCainAward - This couple spread lies from a joint account and harassed retail workers offline. Now the husband doesn’t have the guts to say how she died, he just took her name off of their account.
					

2,977 votes and 544 comments so far on Reddit




					www.reddit.com


----------



## GoldenGate

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Bruddah iznoramus.  So that death rate in FL that you claimed was so great (17 a day as of Oct 2) is now showing 118 a day as of Oct 2 based on the same website that you used.  How does it feel to be a dumbfuck who is easily misled, but who is so embarrassed by your dumbfuckery that you have now completely disassociated yourself from reality? Based on your own website, it is very clear that the state you thought was doing so great is actually doing the absolute worst (other than maybe TX and AZ).
> 
> And hey @what-happened, what happened? Why is it you're upset with me and not the person who is flat out lying to you at this website? Is it because you're also one of those people who is easily duped and wants to believe lies regardless of how ridiculous they are and how demonstrably false?  Do you believe the election was stolen? Obama is not an American citizen? What is the depth of your rabbit hole?  And how many more people do you think should be duped all the way to their death by claims like Bruddah iznoramus' that all this stuff about people dying of Covid is just a hoax, so no need for masks or microchipped vaccines?
> 
> Here is a fresh batch of believers from yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - (Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family
> 
> 
> 1,340 votes and 309 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Texas Author Nominee, 2x Covidee, Writes Her Final Chapter, Claims Her Award. Prayer Warriors, Budesonide Demands Failed. Nominee Link in Comments.
> 
> 
> 1,132 votes and 374 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Not a whole lot of posts, but her beliefs were made clear.
> 
> 
> 618 votes and 222 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Pervy Pete posted prolifically, passed peacefully.
> 
> 
> 3,896 votes and 871 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - It was announced someone at my company passed away, looked at their profile and saw classic HCA. I just picked some posts from the past month...
> 
> 
> 646 votes and 140 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - “Pam” ponders all kinds of things except the idea that vaccines and masks might have saved her life.
> 
> 
> 575 votes and 259 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Wisconsin Snowflake accepts her HCA
> 
> 
> 933 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Officer Snowflake accepts a HCA
> 
> 
> 837 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - This couple spread lies from a joint account and harassed retail workers offline. Now the husband doesn’t have the guts to say how she died, he just took her name off of their account.
> 
> 
> 2,977 votes and 544 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com


Bruddah, I almost forgot to provide the graph to shove up your arse. My apologies...


----------



## crush

More from the judge.  

U.S. District Judge David Hurd of the Northern District of New York gave his decision in a *27*-page ruling.

If health care workers do not want to be vaccinated due to religious reasons, the state is banned from any retaliation against those workers, Hurd ruled.

*17* health anonymous care professionals led the lawsuit.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Bruddah, I almost forgot to provide the graph to shove up your arse. My apologies...View attachment 11861


Dude, you think way too much about death.  Death should be a celebration of one's life.  You come on here and mock people who have died and who have gone unto bigger, better things that this place does not offer.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Apparently dumbfucks are impervious to shame, they just double down on stupid while ignoring reality. There’s always a likeminded “expert” to quote, even when they both get it wrong.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Bruddah iznoramus.  So that death rate in FL that you claimed was so great (17 a day as of Oct 2) is now showing 118 a day as of Oct 2 based on the same website that you used.  How does it feel to be a dumbfuck who is easily misled, but who is so embarrassed by your dumbfuckery that you have now completely disassociated yourself from reality? Based on your own website, it is very clear that the state you thought was doing so great is actually doing the absolute worst (other than maybe TX and AZ).
> 
> And hey @what-happened, what happened? Why is it you're upset with me and not the person who is flat out lying to you at this website? Is it because you're also one of those people who is easily duped and wants to believe lies regardless of how ridiculous they are and how demonstrably false?  Do you believe the election was stolen? Obama is not an American citizen? What is the depth of your rabbit hole?  And how many more people do you think should be duped all the way to their death by claims like Bruddah iznoramus' that all this stuff about people dying of Covid is just a hoax, so no need for masks or microchipped vaccines?
> 
> Here is a fresh batch of believers from yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - (Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family
> 
> 
> 1,340 votes and 309 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Texas Author Nominee, 2x Covidee, Writes Her Final Chapter, Claims Her Award. Prayer Warriors, Budesonide Demands Failed. Nominee Link in Comments.
> 
> 
> 1,132 votes and 374 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Not a whole lot of posts, but her beliefs were made clear.
> 
> 
> 618 votes and 222 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Pervy Pete posted prolifically, passed peacefully.
> 
> 
> 3,896 votes and 871 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - It was announced someone at my company passed away, looked at their profile and saw classic HCA. I just picked some posts from the past month...
> 
> 
> 646 votes and 140 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - “Pam” ponders all kinds of things except the idea that vaccines and masks might have saved her life.
> 
> 
> 575 votes and 259 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Wisconsin Snowflake accepts her HCA
> 
> 
> 933 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Officer Snowflake accepts a HCA
> 
> 
> 837 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - This couple spread lies from a joint account and harassed retail workers offline. Now the husband doesn’t have the guts to say how she died, he just took her name off of their account.
> 
> 
> 2,977 votes and 544 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com


Stolen election? Obama not a citizen? Microchipped vaccines.  You are  hilarious.  Carry on with your rant.  A good laugh will be had by all.


----------



## MacDre

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Bruddah iznoramus.  So that death rate in FL that you claimed was so great (17 a day as of Oct 2) is now showing 118 a day as of Oct 2 based on the same website that you used.  How does it feel to be a dumbfuck who is easily misled, but who is so embarrassed by your dumbfuckery that you have now completely disassociated yourself from reality? Based on your own website, it is very clear that the state you thought was doing so great is actually doing the absolute worst (other than maybe TX and AZ).
> 
> And hey @what-happened, what happened? Why is it you're upset with me and not the person who is flat out lying to you at this website? Is it because you're also one of those people who is easily duped and wants to believe lies regardless of how ridiculous they are and how demonstrably false?  Do you believe the election was stolen? Obama is not an American citizen? What is the depth of your rabbit hole?  And how many more people do you think should be duped all the way to their death by claims like Bruddah iznoramus' that all this stuff about people dying of Covid is just a hoax, so no need for masks or microchipped vaccines?
> 
> Here is a fresh batch of believers from yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - (Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family
> 
> 
> 1,340 votes and 309 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Texas Author Nominee, 2x Covidee, Writes Her Final Chapter, Claims Her Award. Prayer Warriors, Budesonide Demands Failed. Nominee Link in Comments.
> 
> 
> 1,132 votes and 374 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Not a whole lot of posts, but her beliefs were made clear.
> 
> 
> 618 votes and 222 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Pervy Pete posted prolifically, passed peacefully.
> 
> 
> 3,896 votes and 871 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - It was announced someone at my company passed away, looked at their profile and saw classic HCA. I just picked some posts from the past month...
> 
> 
> 646 votes and 140 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - “Pam” ponders all kinds of things except the idea that vaccines and masks might have saved her life.
> 
> 
> 575 votes and 259 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Wisconsin Snowflake accepts her HCA
> 
> 
> 933 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> __
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> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - Officer Snowflake accepts a HCA
> 
> 
> 837 votes and 193 comments so far on Reddit
> 
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> www.reddit.com
> 
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> __
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> 
> 
> r/HermanCainAward - This couple spread lies from a joint account and harassed retail workers offline. Now the husband doesn’t have the guts to say how she died, he just took her name off of their account.
> 
> 
> 2,977 votes and 544 comments so far on Reddit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reddit.com


@GoldenGate what’s up with a MAC?  You just saved me family!  I was going to to take my kid to homecoming at FAMU at the end of October to hang out with her cousins and to see if she can find some rhythm.

I think we’ll hide in our basement for another year or until the death rate comes down.


----------



## met61

When deaths from the COVID-19 vaccine exceed deaths from COVID-19... you're being played.









						Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19
					

Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19 for the first time. As of the 7th, the death toll after vaccination in Taiwan reached 852, while the death toll after the COVID-19 was diagnosed was 844. The number of deaths after vaccination exceeded the number of confirmed...




					medicaltrend.org


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> When deaths from the COVID-19 vaccine exceed deaths from COVID-19... you're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19
> 
> 
> Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19 for the first time. As of the 7th, the death toll after vaccination in Taiwan reached 852, while the death toll after the COVID-19 was diagnosed was 844. The number of deaths after vaccination exceeded the number of confirmed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medicaltrend.org


And the grand prize for base rate errors goes to.....

Met61.  Congratulations, Met61.  

I think you'll find that Taiwanese deaths after polio vaccination also exceed Taiwanese deaths after contracting polio.   Bonus points if you can figure out why.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> When deaths from the COVID-19 vaccine exceed deaths from COVID-19... you're being played.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19
> 
> 
> Taiwan death from COVID-19 vaccination exceeds death from COVID-19 for the first time. As of the 7th, the death toll after vaccination in Taiwan reached 852, while the death toll after the COVID-19 was diagnosed was 844. The number of deaths after vaccination exceeded the number of confirmed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medicaltrend.org


Interesting, but I'm a little skeptical of this website.  Here is one of their disclaimers.


The information on this website is believed to be complete, true, accurate or not misleading, but *NO GUARANTEE OF ACCURARY.*

That's probably a standard disclosure but I find it hilarious that they misspelled Accuracy.


----------



## GoldenGate

MacDre said:


> @GoldenGate what’s up with a MAC?  You just saved me family!  I was going to to take my kid to homecoming at FAMU at the end of October to hang out with her cousins and to see if she can find some rhythm.
> 
> I think we’ll hide in our basement for another year or until the death rate comes down.


Are you vaccinated and do you believe masks reduce spread, or are you one of the typical anti-vax/mask right wing dumbfucks who hang out here (and all Herman Cain Award winners)?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Interesting, but I'm a little skeptical of this website.  Here is one of their disclaimers.
> 
> 
> The information on this website is believed to be complete, true, accurate or not misleading, but *NO GUARANTEE OF ACCURARY.*
> 
> That's probably a standard disclosure but I find it hilarious that they misspelled Accuracy.


So now that you're actually reading some bs for what it is, how do you feel about your buddy Bruddah dumbfuck's assertion that only 17 people a day were dying of Covid in FL as of 10/2?


----------



## Desert Hound

The preferred policy of the likes of dad and others lead to this...

They have no risk. 



And to this...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448062513753600004


----------



## Desert Hound

_With all the things to worry about in 2021, it hadn’t occurred to me to fret about the social impact that masks might have on my son; I’d been so relieved that his public elementary school, in San Francisco, would require them. But here we were. Huxley couldn’t tell his new classmates apart; he had trouble hearing them; he wasn’t sure whether they could hear him; and he became especially disoriented around lunchtime, he said, because that was when all the kids took their masks off. Suddenly they looked like entirely new people. Normally he’s pretty good at making friends, but the confusion was giving him anxiety.

“Even for adults, it is difficult to recognize faces in masks,” says Changhong Liu, a psychologist at Bournemouth University, in the U.K., who studies face recognition. People process faces holistically, he told me, taking in all the features in combination—which is impossible when some of those features are obstructed by a mask, or even sunglasses. And until about age 14, children are still developing their facial-recognition skills.

Some psychologists and educators worry that such impairment in facial processing can lead to a spate of challenges with socialization and communication.



			Masks Are Changing How Kids Interact
		

_


----------



## MacDre

GoldenGate said:


> Are you vaccinated and do you believe masks reduce spread, or are you one of the typical anti-vax/mask right wing dumbfucks who hang out here (and all Herman Cain Award winners)?


Fully vaccinated, masked up, and waiting on our boosters over here.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> And the grand prize for base rate errors goes to.....
> 
> Met61.  Congratulations, Met61.
> 
> I think you'll find that Taiwanese deaths after polio vaccination also exceed Taiwanese deaths after contracting polio.   Bonus points if you can figure out why.


...old or new definition of vaccination?


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> The preferred policy of the likes of dad and others lead to this...
> 
> They have no risk.
> 
> View attachment 11863
> 
> And to this...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448062513753600004


...in 3, 2, 1 

"I'm a little skeptical of the first one, no blue √"


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Fully vaccinated, masked up, and waiting on our boosters over here.


baa...baa...baa!


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> Interesting, but I'm a little skeptical of this website.  Here is one of their disclaimers.
> 
> 
> The information on this website is believed to be complete, true, accurate or not misleading, but *NO GUARANTEE OF ACCURARY.*
> 
> That's probably a standard disclosure but I find it hilarious that they misspelled Accuracy.


Right!...best to stick with NYT & WaPo for "guarantee of accuracy." Brilliant!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I got the unscientific part, but the article was void of any traceable fact.  How many of the Amish community in question were vaccinated against covid (vaccination acceptance varies from one Amish community and family to another)?  How many died from covid?  The article contradicts itself about whether the Amish practiced any mask usage.  What is the basis for the statement that "We all got coronavirus"?
> 
> I have been interested for years on the interface between Amish practices and modern technology since I have Amish inlaws (or, more properly, former-Amish inlaws, who still have Amish relatives).  They don't wire their houses with electricity, but they accept it in their shops and stores (such as gift shops catering to "English" tourists).  They tolerate solar panels and diesel generators to run electric farm equipment.  They won't have a telephone in the house, but they arrange for a payphone on a nearby roadside.  They won't buy health insurance per se, but they kick in to pay for medical care for members as needed.  They tax themselves to support modern local ambulance services (for which they have to hire non-Amish drivers), modern health clinics, and hospitals.
> 
> The article seems to have been written by someone ignorant of all that background, who was paid by the word, and had a deadline to meet.


I wonder how many stories would remain in news organizations' posts if they couldn't be a story/anecdote (synonyms BTW), the writer had to be an expert in the field and they didn't have a deadline to meet? Once we whittle it down to those stories that qualify, how many would remain if a balanced perspective was required?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I wonder how many stories would remain in news organizations' posts if they couldn't be a story/anecdote (synonyms BTW), the writer had to be an expert in the field and they didn't have a deadline to meet? Once we whittle it down to those stories that qualify, how many would remain if a balanced perspective was required?


That would depend on the news organization's commitment to honest journalistic principles.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> That would depend on the news organization's commitment to honest journalistic principles.


Name 1


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Are you vaccinated and do you believe masks reduce spread, or are you one of the typical anti-vax/mask right wing dumbfucks who hang out here (and all Herman Cain Award winners)?


Tell me what you know about vaccines?  I bet you can't have an objective conversation.  The likely response will be laced with insults not related to anything of substance or on topic.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> Right!...best to stick with NYT & WaPo for "guarantee of accuracy." Brilliant!


Let's not get carried away now!


----------



## met61

Kicker4Life said:


> Name 1


...nice try, but he'll answer your question with a question.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Let's not get carried away now!


That is for sure. Those orgs peddled the Russian collusion story for 3 or so years. Then of course stopped peddling that when it turns out there was no collusion. 

The Times however still has not returned their Pulitzer prize they won. You would think that would be auto rescinded since as it turns out the stories got it wrong. 

But that is just me.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> Right!...best to stick with NYT & WaPo for "guarantee of accuracy." Brilliant!


Ouch, right winger on right winger violence.  So Watfly, how do you feel that a couple days after you claim that the right wing dumbfucks here are hte only ones who "tend to" report facts, one of them is raking you over the coals for disputing "facts" from a conspiracy theory website that can't even spell right? And also mocks two of the most legitimate news organizations in the U.S.? Or have you joined your nutter friends and similarly take the position that "facts" are whatever you want them to be so long as they come from anywhere besides reputable sources? 

Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who seem to share, I mean seemed to share, you and your buddy's hatred of facts and appropriate places to find information. 


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvgky1


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/psvex8


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q041fd


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnu3vx


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjyjux


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> That is for sure. Those orgs peddled the Russian collusion story for 3 or so years. Then of course stopped peddling that when it turns out there was no collusion.
> 
> The Times however still has not returned their Pulitzer prize they won. You would think that would be auto rescinded since as it turns out the stories got it wrong.
> 
> But that is just me.


Where is that website where you got the manifesto - which you posted verbatim in about 10 of the longest posts ever written here by someone other than crush - by the anonymous fake pathologist who did not go to a Big 10 med school or attend a high level residency because he is not real?  I feel like you never answered that question.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Bruddah, I almost forgot to provide the graph to shove up your arse. My apologies...View attachment 11861


Eh Lamont you should actually post something that supports the point you hope to make.  See that diamond and the line that it follows.  "You big dummy"--Sanford  Btw it is 10/13/today.  Happy Birthday to the United States Navy!!


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Tell me what you know about vaccines?  I bet you can't have an objective conversation.  The likely response will be laced with insults not related to anything of substance or on topic.


Why don't you start and show us what an objective conversation of vaccines looks like.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 140 – and is the closing paragraph – of Thomas Sowell’s superb 1984 book, _Civil Rights: Rhetoric or Reality?_:

_




_



> _People do not change their vision of the world the way they change clothes or replace old light bulbs. But change they must if they mean to survive. No individual (or group) is going to capture all of reality in his vision. If the only reaction to other visions – or uncomfortable evidence – is blind mudslinging, then the limitations that are common to all human beings become, for them, ideological prisons._


----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 393 of George Will’s 2021 book, _American Happiness and Discontents: The Unruly Torrent, 2008-2020_ – a collection of many of Will’s columns over these years; (the column from which the quotation below is drawn originally appeared in the _Washington Post_ on July 11th, 2020):

_




_

_Fascism was entertainment built around rallies – e.g., those at Nuremberg – where crowds were played as passive instruments. Success manipulating the masses fed fascist leaders’ disdain for the led._

*DBx*: Today, of course, rallies can be virtual, and crowds can assemble on-line.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Why don't you start and show us what an objective conversation of vaccines looks like.


I'll bite - can we agree that the protection offered by the vaccines against sars-cov-2 isn't playing out as advertised?  Don't you remember the 4th of July pipe dream being peddled by the federal government. If you can't agree or see that this is the case, then you are in no position to have an objective conversation.

I am vaxxed and have had a breakthrough infection.  I'm one those with super duper hybrid immunity.  I'm pro vaccine for the populations that need it.

Notice how the narrative changed after it became apparent that the vaccines waned in such a short period of time and a booster was the answer?  We went from providing protection from the virus to championing protection from hospitalization and  death.  Quite a change of direction.  Another interesting note, follow vaccine stock pricing and fluctuations.  Wall street likes nothing better than failing vaccines.  Not a lot of money to be made in vaccines that work.  Plenty of money to be made on vaccines that require therapeutic boosters.  Check out stock price for Merck these days.  Therapeutics is where you make the money.  

Bottom line is the sars-cov-2 vaccines do not work as advertised.  Check out the data from Israel and the UK.  They have the best data to make conclusions from.  With that said, the rate of speed that these vaccines were developed was truly amazing.  It's not a panacea and it's certainly a tool to be used in the management of the disease.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

To doubt a scientist is not to doubt science. Quite the contrary, personal authority is precisely what science dispenses with, as much as possible. Dr. Fauci’s assertion of authority creates skepticism about all his assertions—legitimately, because the distinction between science and a particular scientist is essential. To be sure, nonscientists often have to trust scientists to inform them what the science has discovered. But that is all the more reason that scientists bear the responsibility of not letting political or other nonscientific criteria affect their explication.--Gary Morson


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Why don't you start and show us what an objective conversation of vaccines looks like.


That would require him to concede that all of the Herman Cain Award winners are actually telling (I mean told) everyone in their Facebook feeds exactly what dumbfuckery is (I mean was) directly responsible for their deaths. It would require that he concede that false and misleading "stats" that FL is doing great - like the bs lie that only 17 people a day were dying in FL due to Covid - are actually demonstrably provable lies.  It is crazy the dumbfuck what-happened is claiming that I won't have an honest conversation with facts when the reality is that I've actually attached the FL death rate graph every time it has been updated and explained exactly why the original graph was false and misleading. L 

It is because he has no desire to have an honest conversation.  He just wants to hear more bs about how masks and vaccines don't do anything, how Covid is just a big hoax and everyone is really dying in motorcycle accidents.  He definitely doesn't want to look at how stupid, sad and pathetic all his and his buddies' anti-mask/vax bs looks in the FB feed of a dumbfuck who died for no reason other than he believed it. He doesn't want to accept that his buddy bruddah iznoramus was lying with his 17 deaths per day in FL nonsense.  Like his easily manipulated friend, he must completely disassociate himself from facts and reality.  For him, "facts" are now whatever it takes, regardless of how crazy, to support his denial that his beliefs are false and getting people killed.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> That would require him to concede that all of the Herman Cain Award winners are actually telling (I mean told) everyone in their Facebook feeds exactly what dumbfuckery is (I mean was) directly responsible for their deaths. It would require that he concede that false and misleading "stats" that FL is doing great - like the bs lie that only 17 people a day were dying in FL due to Covid - are actually demonstrably provable lies.  It is crazy the dumbfuck what-happened is claiming that I won't have an honest conversation with facts when the reality is that I've actually attached the FL death rate graph every time it has been updated and explained exactly why the original graph was false and misleading. L
> 
> It is because he has no desire to have an honest conversation.  He just wants to hear more bs about how masks and vaccines don't do anything, how Covid is just a big hoax and everyone is really dying in motorcycle accidents.  He definitely doesn't want to look at how stupid, sad and pathetic all his and his buddies' anti-mask/vax bs looks in the FB feed of a dumbfuck who died for no reason other than he believed it. He doesn't want to accept that his buddy bruddah iznoramus was lying with his 17 deaths per day in FL nonsense.  Like his easily manipulated friend, he must completely disassociate himself from facts and reality.  For him, "facts" are now whatever it takes, regardless of how crazy, to support his denial that his beliefs are false and getting people killed.


Blah, Blah, Blah


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> That would require him to concede that all of the Herman Cain Award winners are actually telling (I mean told) everyone in their Facebook feeds exactly what dumbfuckery is (I mean was) directly responsible for their deaths. It would require that he concede that false and misleading "stats" that FL is doing great - like the bs lie that only 17 people a day were dying in FL due to Covid - are actually demonstrably provable lies.  It is crazy the dumbfuck what-happened is claiming that I won't have an honest conversation with facts when the reality is that I've actually attached the FL death rate graph every time it has been updated and explained exactly why the original graph was false and misleading. L
> 
> It is because he has no desire to have an honest conversation.  He just wants to hear more bs about how masks and vaccines don't do anything, how Covid is just a big hoax and everyone is really dying in motorcycle accidents.  He definitely doesn't want to look at how stupid, sad and pathetic all his and his buddies' anti-mask/vax bs looks in the FB feed of a dumbfuck who died for no reason other than he believed it. He doesn't want to accept that his buddy bruddah iznoramus was lying with his 17 deaths per day in FL nonsense.  Like his easily manipulated friend, he must completely disassociate himself from facts and reality.  For him, "facts" are now whatever it takes, regardless of how crazy, to support his denial that his beliefs are false and getting people killed.


You are pretty stuck on this florida thing.  What makes you think I'm even concerned about graphs posted on a youth soccer forum.  You should read the book "Don't get stuck on stupid". Quite enlightening and will make you feel better. 

Most of your post is babbling nonsense.  Point out what I'm denying? how my beliefs are false and how they are killing people (which is actually quite ironic).  Please leave out Obama, the wall and your orange boogery man.  Keep it coherent.  I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Eh Lamont you should actually post something that supports the point you hope to make.  See that diamond and the line that it follows.  "You big dummy"--Sanford  Btw it is 10/13/today.  Happy Birthday to the United States Navy!!


How false do you think your assertion that the FL death rate as of 10/2 was 17 a day will end up being?  I mean, we're fast approaching a factor of 10, but how much beyond that? How not steep do you think it will end up being? How big a lie did you tell?  

You wanted to talk about how great FL was doing so much that you posted a graph that you knew was misleading.  I've posted the same graph every time it gets updated to make sure even dumbshits like you understand that you're being duped.  So now you want to talk about the US Navy's birthday.  Figures.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> You are pretty stuck on this florida thing.  What makes you think I'm even concerned about graphs posted on a youth soccer forum.  You should read the book "Don't get stuck on stupid". Quite enlightening and will make you feel better.
> 
> Most of your post is babbling nonsense.  Point out what I'm denying? how my beliefs are false and how they are killing people (which is actually quite ironic).  Please leave out Obama, the wall and your orange boogery man.  Keep it coherent.  I'm looking forward to it.


I'm not stuck on anything.  I can see how you wouldn't want to continue discussing something that was so demonstrably false and contradicts your anti-mask/vax narrative, however.  It must be incredibly embarrassing to believe that FL is doing so great only to find out that the information you rely on for that conclusion is unquestionably fraudulent.  How many people a day do you think were really dying of Covid in FL every day?  200? 300? Or just motorcycle accidents? How bad do you think it is going to look when all is said and done?  How much worse will FL look compared to even NY, especially since FL has no excuse given that most of its deaths could have been easily avoided by getting vaccinated, and FL had 18 months that NY did not have to learn how to treat those with it, as well as the efficacy of wearing masks. Seriously, we are 18 months in and both you and FL seem to think no one ever dies of Covid, but stock up on horse paste just in case, because someone said on Facebook that it is the best way to save lives of those who are dying from Covid, assuming they are, which they aren't.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> … is from page 393 of George Will’s 2021 book, _American Happiness and Discontents: The Unruly Torrent, 2008-2020_ – a collection of many of Will’s columns over these years; (the column from which the quotation below is drawn originally appeared in the _Washington Post_ on July 11th, 2020):
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fascism was entertainment built around rallies – e.g., those at Nuremberg – where crowds were played as passive instruments. Success manipulating the masses fed fascist leaders’ disdain for the led._
> 
> *DBx*: Today, of course, rallies can be virtual, and crowds can assemble on-line.


Hey Watfly, is this guy tending to report facts?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'll bite - can we agree that the protection offered by the vaccines against sars-cov-2 isn't playing out as advertised?  Don't you remember the 4th of July pipe dream being peddled by the federal government. If you can't agree or see that this is the case, then you are in no position to have an objective conversation.
> 
> I am vaxxed and have had a breakthrough infection.  I'm one those with super duper hybrid immunity.  I'm pro vaccine for the populations that need it.
> 
> Notice how the narrative changed after it became apparent that the vaccines waned in such a short period of time and a booster was the answer?  We went from providing protection from the virus to championing protection from hospitalization and  death.  Quite a change of direction.  Another interesting note, follow vaccine stock pricing and fluctuations.  Wall street likes nothing better than failing vaccines.  Not a lot of money to be made in vaccines that work.  Plenty of money to be made on vaccines that require therapeutic boosters.  Check out stock price for Merck these days.  Therapeutics is where you make the money.
> 
> Bottom line is the sars-cov-2 vaccines do not work as advertised.  Check out the data from Israel and the UK.  They have the best data to make conclusions from.  With that said, the rate of speed that these vaccines were developed was truly amazing.  It's not a panacea and it's certainly a tool to be used in the management of the disease.


That's not very objective.  "as advertised...pipe dream...quite a change of direction...Wall Street...as advertised"  etc


----------



## met61

espola said:


> That's not very objective.  "as advertised...pipe dream...quite a change of direction...Wall Street...as advertised"  etc


@what-happened ...you bit. Couldn't see that coming.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Ouch, right winger on right winger violence.  So Watfly, how do you feel that a couple days after you claim that the right wing dumbfucks here are hte only ones who "tend to" report facts, one of them is raking you over the coals for disputing "facts" from a conspiracy theory website that can't even spell right? And also mocks two of the most legitimate news organizations in the U.S.? Or have you joined your nutter friends and similarly take the position that "facts" are whatever you want them to be so long as they come from anywhere besides reputable sources?
> 
> Here are some Herman Cain Award winners who seem to share, I mean seemed to share, you and your buddy's hatred of facts and appropriate places to find information.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pvgky1
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/psvex8
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q041fd
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pnu3vx
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjyjux


...they're Fake News.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> That is for sure. Those orgs peddled the Russian collusion story for 3 or so years. Then of course stopped peddling that when it turns out there was no collusion.
> 
> The Times however still has not returned their Pulitzer prize they won. You would think that would be auto rescinded since as it turns out the stories got it wrong.
> 
> But that is just me.


...and me.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That's not very objective.  "as advertised...pipe dream...quite a change of direction...Wall Street...as advertised"  etc


How is that not objective?  Wasn't 4th of July the prize for vaccination?  Wasn't the vaccine presented as providing immunity? And if you don't think there's a connection between wall street and big pharma, then you can't possibly have an objective discussion.  

Anyway, I figured you wouldn't provide anything of substance.  You are still on that ideological island of yours.  At least you are vaccinated, which is not a bad thing, maybe even eligible for a therapeutic disguised as a booster for a half hearted vaccine that kinda works but not really but is the best that can be done for what it's trying to combat against.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Watfly, is this guy tending to report facts?


Fauci?  No..


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> How is that not objective?  Wasn't 4th of July the prize for vaccination?  Wasn't the vaccine presented as providing immunity? And if you don't think there's a connection between wall street and big pharma, then you can't possibly have an objective discussion.
> 
> Anyway, I figured you wouldn't provide anything of substance.  You are still on that ideological island of yours.  At least you are vaccinated, which is not a bad thing, maybe even eligible for a therapeutic disguised as a booster for a half hearted vaccine that kinda works but not really but is the best that can be done for what it's trying to combat against.


You must have gone to Grace's school of strawman costruction.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> How is that not objective?  Wasn't 4th of July the prize for vaccination?  Wasn't the vaccine presented as providing immunity? And if you don't think there's a connection between wall street and big pharma, then you can't possibly have an objective discussion.
> 
> Anyway, I figured you wouldn't provide anything of substance.  You are still on that ideological island of yours.  At least you are vaccinated, which is not a bad thing, maybe even eligible for a therapeutic disguised as a booster for a half hearted vaccine that kinda works but not really but is the best that can be done for what it's trying to combat against.


“By Easter, we’ll fill all those beautiful churches”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Fauci?  No..


Your disingenuous is obvious.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your disingenuous is obvious.


Really, at face value, you think Fauci has been 100% truthful?  You have no sense of reality and don't quite understand his history.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You must have gone to Grace's school of strawman costruction.


well, there goes the idea that you could contribute to this discussion beyond cutting and pasting.  Excellent job at ducking the topic.  I'm starting to believe that you have no idea what a strawman argument even is.  

Let's get your opnion another way.  Simple yes or no.  My answers are in parenthesis:

1.  Do the sars-cov-2 vaccines wane? (Y)
2.  Do the sars-cov-2 vaccine prevent infection? (N)
3.  Should you vaccinate humans that are at low risk for a disease?(N)
4.  Should sars-cov-2 vaccines be utilized as a tool to manage the disease? (Y)
5.  Is Ronaldo better than Messi?(N)
6.  Do you think @Hüsker Dü can provide value add to any conversation without insulting someone? (N)


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> I'm starting to believe that you have no idea what a strawman argument even is.


He doesn't.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> He doesn't.


Sure @espola does, he watches his mentor kiddie fiddlers at The Lincoln Project use them all the time.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not stuck on anything.


The amount of energy you spend on this forum clearly disagrees with that statement.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> “By Easter, we’ll fill all those beautiful churches”


“
I'm not going to shut down the country.

I'm not going to shut down the economy.

I'm going to shut down the virus


----------



## Brav520

305241 Americans have died of Covid since Biden took office 

all preventable deaths, all because of Biden


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> well, there goes the idea that you could contribute to this discussion beyond cutting and pasting.  Excellent job at ducking the topic.  I'm starting to believe that you have no idea what a strawman argument even is.
> 
> Let's get your opnion another way.  Simple yes or no.  My answers are in parenthesis:
> 
> 1.  Do the sars-cov-2 vaccines wane? (Y)
> 2.  Do the sars-cov-2 vaccine prevent infection? (N)
> 3.  Should you vaccinate humans that are at low risk for a disease?(N)
> 4.  Should sars-cov-2 vaccines be utilized as a tool to manage the disease? (Y)
> 5.  Is Ronaldo better than Messi?(N)
> 6.  Do you think @Hüsker Dü can provide value add to any conversation without insulting someone? (N)


Your strawman arguments were embodied in your "as advertised" phrases.  No vaccine is perfect at preventing the disease it is aimed at.  The best measure of the effectiveness of a vaccine is whether the results in the vaccinated population are better than in the unvaccinated population.

They are.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> *I'll bite - can we agree that the protection offered by the vaccines against sars-cov-2 isn't playing out as advertised?*  Don't you remember the 4th of July pipe dream being peddled by the federal government. If you can't agree or see that this is the case, then you are in no position to have an objective conversation.
> 
> I am vaxxed and have had a breakthrough infection.  I'm one those with super duper hybrid immunity.  I'm pro vaccine for the populations that need it.
> 
> Notice how the narrative changed after it became apparent that the vaccines waned in such a short period of time and a booster was the answer?  We went from providing protection from the virus to championing protection from hospitalization and  death.  Quite a change of direction.  Another interesting note, follow vaccine stock pricing and fluctuations.  Wall street likes nothing better than failing vaccines.  Not a lot of money to be made in vaccines that work.  Plenty of money to be made on vaccines that require therapeutic boosters.  Check out stock price for Merck these days.  Therapeutics is where you make the money.
> 
> Bottom line is the sars-cov-2 vaccines do not work as advertised.  Check out the data from Israel and the UK.  They have the best data to make conclusions from.  With that said, the rate of speed that these vaccines were developed was truly amazing.  It's not a panacea and it's certainly a tool to be used in the management of the disease.


Falls apart on your first sentence.  I do not agree that it is fair to blame the vaccine for the fact that Delta exists.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not stuck on anything.  I can see how you wouldn't want to continue discussing something that was so demonstrably false and contradicts your anti-mask/vax narrative, however.  It must be incredibly embarrassing to believe that FL is doing so great only to find out that the information you rely on for that conclusion is unquestionably fraudulent.  How many people a day do you think were really dying of Covid in FL every day?  200? 300? Or just motorcycle accidents? How bad do you think it is going to look when all is said and done?  How much worse will FL look compared to even NY, especially since FL has no excuse given that most of its deaths could have been easily avoided by getting vaccinated, and FL had 18 months that NY did not have to learn how to treat those with it, as well as the efficacy of wearing masks. Seriously, we are 18 months in and both you and FL seem to think no one ever dies of Covid, but stock up on horse paste just in case, because someone said on Facebook that it is the best way to save lives of those who are dying from Covid, assuming they are, which they aren't.


Remember when Florida shoved Covid positive patients back into nursing homes

then the Governor tried to cover up those numbers

then wrote a book about how well he did at Covid

#deathdesantis


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> *Falls apart on your first sentence*.  I do not agree that it is fair to blame the vaccine for the fact that Delta exists.


It doesn't fall apart, you are not opening your eyes.    It's plenty effective against the Delta variant, but it wanes...that's the point, it wanes.  It wanes against the OG and subsequent variants.  If you are an early vaccine adopter, your almost back to square one. Maddening huh. And, you will have to wait for your therapeutic booster.  The FDA isn't too keen on boosters. People have even quit over boosters..imagaine that.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Your strawman arguments were embodied in your "as advertised" phrases.  No vaccine is perfect at preventing the disease it is aimed at.  The best measure of the effectiveness of a vaccine is whether the results in the vaccinated population are better than in the unvaccinated population.
> 
> They are.


You've taken babbling to a whole new level....stick to your unique interpretation of strawman and avoid actual discussion.   You should be blocked by anyone on here who values intellectual discourse.  I asked you simple yes or no questions and you can't  summon the courage to answer.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> You've taken babbling to a whole new level....stick to your unique interpretation of strawman and avoid actual discussion.   You should be blocked by anyone on here who values intellectual discourse.  I asked you simple yes or no questions and you can't  summon the courage to answer.


I thought you wanted an objective conversation.  You're just running around lighting symbolic fires, ignoring the conversation.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> It doesn't fall apart, you are not opening your eyes.    It's plenty effective against the Delta variant, but it wanes...that's the point, it wanes.  It wanes against the OG and subsequent variants.  If you are an early vaccine adopter, your almost back to square one. Maddening huh. And, you will have to wait for your therapeutic booster.  The FDA isn't too keen on boosters. People have even quit over boosters..imagaine that.


Just today I got my annual flu shot.  You might call that a booster.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I thought you wanted an *objective* conversation.  You're just running around lighting symbolic fires, ignoring the conversation.


I’ll take the second definition please…. Much closer to stringing words together/babbling and still lacking a response to the direct questions posed.

Maybe a mirror would be helpful from time to time.


2. 
GRAMMAR
relating to or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used as the object of a transitive verb or a prepositio


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Really, at face value, you think Fauci has been 100% truthful?  You have no sense of reality and don't quite understand his history.


Not my meaning, but of course you know that, or at least should, but your juvenile disingenuous game may not let you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I thought you wanted an objective conversation.  You're just running around lighting symbolic fires, ignoring the conversation.


Kinda has a dizzy feel to it. Ignoring all evidence to the contrary isn’t being objective.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> I’ll take the second definition please…. Much closer to stringing words together/babbling and still lacking a response to the direct questions posed.
> 
> Maybe a mirror would be helpful from time to time.
> 
> 
> 2.
> GRAMMAR
> relating to or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used as the object of a transitive verb or a prepositio


Subjective most commonly means based on the personal perspective or preferences of a person—the subject who's observing something. In contrast, objective most commonly means not influenced by or based on a personal viewpoint—based on the analysis of an object of observation only.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not my meaning, but of course you know that, or at least should, but your juvenile disingenuous game may not let you.


has Fauci lied?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> How false do you think your assertion that the FL death rate as of 10/2 was 17 a day will end up being?  I mean, we're fast approaching a factor of 10, but how much beyond that? How not steep do you think it will end up being? How big a lie did you tell?
> 
> You wanted to talk about how great FL was doing so much that you posted a graph that you knew was misleading.  I've posted the same graph every time it gets updated to make sure even dumbshits like you understand that you're being duped.  So now you want to talk about the US Navy's birthday.  Figures.


You're wrong.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> has Fauci lied?


nope , the science changes , sometimes overnight


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Hey Watfly, is this guy tending to report facts?


You remind me of espola in terms of what you post and not reading what you post.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Just today I got my annual flu shot.  You might call that a booster.


You might not call it a booster.  Comparing the two is foolish - apples to oranges.  We better hope sars-cov-2 doesn't behave like the flu and require a brand new shot each year.  People certainly can get a second dose of the flu shot but it's a small, specific population that will be given a second shot as a booster.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kinda has a dizzy feel to it. Ignoring all evidence to the contrary isn’t being objective.


What evidence?  When did you get your vacccine?  has it been more than six months? Check your card for the date.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Subjective most commonly means based on the personal perspective or preferences of a person—the subject who's observing something. In contrast, objective most commonly means not influenced by or based on a personal viewpoint—based on the analysis of an object of observation only.


Hence your use of the ignore button.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I thought you wanted an objective conversation.  You're just running around lighting symbolic fires, ignoring the conversation.


  Redirect, never answer.  You were given a chance to answer simple questions - and couldn't muster the courage to provide simple answers.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I thought you wanted an objective conversation.  You're just running around lighting symbolic fires, ignoring the conversation.


No…it’s just know one knows what conversation YOU are actually having.


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> nope , the science changes , sometimes overnight


I'm not questioning his science, I dont' think anyone thinks he's dumb.  But he is quite the liar and a megalomaniac.  He left the science business a long time ago, he's nothing but a peddler for pharma, and very good at it.


----------



## what-happened

Kicker4Life said:


> No…it’s just know one knows what conversation YOU are actually having.


Ha, that's the best way of putting it.  Trying to pin down what he thinks he's talking about is the real crux of the problem.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> I'm not questioning his science, I dont' think anyone thinks he's dumb.  But he is quite the liar and a megalomaniac.  He left the science business a long time ago, he's nothing but a peddler for pharma, and very good at it.


everything That comes out of his mouth should be questioned . He doesn’t deserve our trust.

In fact that’s the problem with this entire pandemic , who are we supposed to trust?

fortunately, unless you are living in some deep blue hell hole , most of the country is largely ignoring Fauci and living their lives


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Redirect, never answer.  You were given a chance to answer simple questions - and couldn't muster the courage to provide simple answers.


He never provides answers.

Never actually articulates his position on anything.

Never makes a case for what he believes or makes a case why someone else is wrong.

Never provides any insight.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It doesn't fall apart, you are not opening your eyes.    It's plenty effective against the Delta variant, but it wanes...that's the point, it wanes.  It wanes against the OG and subsequent variants.  If you are an early vaccine adopter, your almost back to square one. Maddening huh. And, you will have to wait for your therapeutic booster.  The FDA isn't too keen on boosters. People have even quit over boosters..imagaine that.


You feel the vax isn't living up to billing.  I feel it is amazingly effective, even with known limitations.  We aren't in agreement on this one.

Seems like most of my kids' vaccinations had boosters.  The possibility of a booster doesn't surprise me at all.  Kind of what I expected.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> You feel the vax isn't living up to billing.  I feel it is amazingly effective, even with known limitations.  We aren't in agreement on this one.
> 
> Seems like most of my kids' vaccinations had boosters.  The possibility of a booster doesn't surprise me at all.  Kind of what I expected.


I don’t disagree with you in principal on vaccine effectiveness

but do believe the vaccine was sold that way to the public? Did our leaders health officials express to us the limitations of said vaccine initially?

wasnt Biden’s pitch in May “ get vaxxed or mask”.

biden is back in a mask and has been shot up three times now

They are all back in mask


----------



## Kicker4Life

Brav520 said:


> I don’t disagree with you in principal on vaccine effectiveness
> 
> but do believe the vaccine was sold that way to the public? Did our leaders health officials express to us the limitations of said vaccine initially?
> 
> wasnt Biden’s pitch in May “ get vaxxed or mask”.
> 
> biden is back in a mask and has been shot up three times now
> 
> They are all back in mask


At least when on camera or in public view!

One of those “things tha make you say, hmmm”:

You can lose your job and access to unemployment benefits if you are not vaccinated.  But if you’re already on unemployment, do you need to show proof of vaccination to receive benefits?

NO - why?

Oh the hypocrisy!


----------



## whatithink

Interesting article

"The pharmaceutical giant Merck is planning to charge Americans $712 for a Covid drug that cost only $17.74 to produce and whose development was subsidized by the American government."

"That’s not a “free market.” It is a top-down command economy perfectly calibrated for price gouging, and the pharmaceutical industry and its puppet politicians want to keep it that way. "

Merck wants Americans to pay $712 for a Covid drug that taxpayers helped develop | David Sirota | The Guardian


----------



## what-happened

whatithink said:


> Interesting article
> 
> "The pharmaceutical giant Merck is planning to charge Americans $712 for a Covid drug that cost only $17.74 to produce and whose development was subsidized by the American government."
> 
> "That’s not a “free market.” It is a top-down command economy perfectly calibrated for price gouging, and the pharmaceutical industry and its puppet politicians want to keep it that way. "
> 
> Merck wants Americans to pay $712 for a Covid drug that taxpayers helped develop | David Sirota | The Guardian


Especially coming from Merck, who many consider to be the most "ethical" of the big pharma companies - except for the minor Vioxx debacle in the early 2000s.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Elites giving more conspiracy fodder to the extremes. These guys just can't help themselves. Journalism is on life support and its failures are driving the divide in our country.









						Joe Rogan forces Dr. Sanjay Gupta to admit CNN shouldn't have called his COVID treatment 'horse dewormer'
					

Joe Rogan confronted CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta over his network's claims that the podcast host took "horse dewormer" as a COVID treatment.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You feel the vax isn't living up to billing.  I feel it is amazingly effective, even with known limitations.  We aren't in agreement on this one.
> 
> Seems like most of my kids' vaccinations had boosters.  The possibility of a booster doesn't surprise me at all.  Kind of what I expected.


When Pfizer announced their vaccine, they claimed 90% effectiveness (not 100%) and that was before the Delta variant had appeared.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You feel the vax isn't living up to billing.  I feel it is amazingly effective, even with known limitations.  We aren't in agreement on this one.
> 
> Seems like most of my kids' vaccinations had boosters.  The possibility of a booster doesn't surprise me at all.  Kind of what I expected.


You may have thought a booster was going to eventually be needed but the general public wasn't pitched the idea.  The vaccine schedule (2 doses for Pfizer/Moderna, 1 for JJ) was sold as the ticket  to backyard freedom.  While the development of the vaccines(s) was impressive, the messaging and politization of the product left a lot to be desired.  It's a very useful tool to manage the disease, but it's not the only one. 

As far as your kid's vaccination, pediatric vaccination is based on a vaccine schedule.  Boosters and vaccine schedules are fundamentally different.  Generally speaking, live vaccines don't need boosters.  And if given a booster, the timing is well beyond the 6-8 months that's been proposed for the covid vaccine.

As far as covid boosters are concerned, there is much disagreement as to who gets a booster, when, etc.  There isn't enough safety data available for the CDC/FDA to make a blanket approval.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> You may have thought a booster was going to eventually be needed but the general public wasn't pitched the idea.  The vaccine schedule (2 doses for Pfizer/Moderna, 1 for JJ) was sold as the ticket  to backyard freedom.  While the development of the vaccines(s) was impressive, the messaging and politization of the product left a lot to be desired.  It's a very useful tool to manage the disease, but it's not the only one.
> 
> As far as your kid's vaccination, pediatric vaccination is based on a vaccine schedule.  Boosters and vaccine schedules are fundamentally different.  Generally speaking, live vaccines don't need boosters.  And if given a booster, the timing is well beyond the 6-8 months that's been proposed for the covid vaccine.
> 
> As far as covid boosters are concerned, there is much disagreement as to who gets a booster, when, etc.  There isn't enough safety data available for the CDC/FDA to make a blanket approval.


You are Monday morning quarterbacking!


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> When Pfizer announced their vaccine, they claimed 90% effectiveness (not 100%) and that was before the Delta variant had appeared.


Great example of misinformation.  They claimed 90% "efficacy" and the trials weren't even done.  Wonder why they did that?  Big difference between efficacy and effectiveness - you can look it up.  It's likely that the FDA was going to approve safe vaccines  above 50% efficacy.

Again, Big Pharma influencing and driving messaging.  We really don't know how effective these vaccines are.  We will eventually.  For now studies will continue, decisions will be made, and more money will be made.  In reality, vaccines aren't a big money driver, therapeutics are.  But why miss an opportunity to get big federal dollars to develop, test, manufacture product that is considered life saving and essential.  It's a no brainer.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> You are Monday morning quarterbacking!


your statement make no sense and is inflammatory.  I'll strike it from the record.  Are you a messi or ronaldo fan?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Elites giving more conspiracy fodder to the extremes. These guys just can't help themselves. Journalism is on life support and its failures are driving the divide in our country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan forces Dr. Sanjay Gupta to admit CNN shouldn't have called his COVID treatment 'horse dewormer'
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan confronted CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta over his network's claims that the podcast host took "horse dewormer" as a COVID treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


The biggest tell that someone is gleefully following a false narrative and mindlessly repeating CNN talking points, is when they call Ivermectin "horse paste".


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> your statement make no sense and is inflammatory.  I'll strike it from the record.  Are you a messi or ronaldo fan?


Both


----------



## Brav520

The vaccine was certainly not sold as Hey get the shot ,but we aren't sure how effective it actually is at preventing you from catching or transmitting covid. 

Anyone arguing otherwise, is Monday Morning Qb"ing

How do we know this, because when breakthrough cases actually started, there was general shock in the public and it was front page news. 

Of course, our experts knew this. So, why are we continuing to not get the full truth from our health "experts"? Why do they treat us like children, that we somehow can't handle the truth ? And people wonder why the public continues to lose confidence in the people who are supposed to be the "experts".


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Elites giving more conspiracy fodder to the extremes. These guys just can't help themselves. Journalism is on life support and its failures are driving the divide in our country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan forces Dr. Sanjay Gupta to admit CNN shouldn't have called his COVID treatment 'horse dewormer'
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan confronted CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta over his network's claims that the podcast host took "horse dewormer" as a COVID treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



there is a reason corporate media personalities rarely venture out of their bubble for interviews. Long form interviewing is certainly a stay away. I give Gupta credit for even going on his show, 99% of his colleagues never would


----------



## MacDre

Brav520 said:


> The vaccine was certainly not sold as Hey get the shot ,but we aren't sure how effective it actually is at preventing you from catching or transmitting covid.
> 
> Anyone arguing otherwise, is Monday Morning Qb"ing
> 
> How do we know this, because when breakthrough cases actually started, there was general shock in the public and it was front page news.
> 
> Of course, our experts knew this. So, why are we continuing to not get the full truth from our health "experts"? Why do they treat us like children, that we somehow can't handle the truth ? And people wonder why the public continues to lose confidence in the people who are supposed to be the "experts".


Maybe it’s because most people are idiots.


----------



## met61

...at what point do some of you realize you are Baghdad Bob?

__________________________________________

Covid is surging in Waterford, Ireland where 99.7 percent of adults are Fully Vaccinated...
"



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448283516039540743


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Maybe it’s because most people are idiots.


...pot meet kettle.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...at what point do some of you realize you are Baghdad Bob?
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> Covid is surging in Waterford, Ireland where 99.7 percent of adults are Fully Vaccinated...
> "
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448283516039540743


What do you think their death rates would look like if vaccinations weren’t so high?


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...pot meet kettle.


I have my moments.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> The vaccine was certainly not sold as Hey get the shot ,but we aren't sure how effective it actually is at preventing you from catching or transmitting covid.
> 
> Anyone arguing otherwise, is Monday Morning Qb"ing
> 
> How do we know this, because when breakthrough cases actually started, there was general shock in the public and it was front page news.
> 
> Of course, our experts knew this. So, why are we continuing to not get the full truth from our health "experts"? Why do they treat us like children, that we somehow can't handle the truth ? And people wonder why the public continues to lose confidence in the people who are supposed to be the "experts".


All truth


----------



## Brav520

The Covid Vax does not appear to do well at stopping infection 

At this point the vaccination provides a private benefit, protection vs severe disease and death. 

But limited public benefit , as it doesn't necessarily do well at preventing spread. 

So then the hot button issue of the day, what is the argument for VAX mandates ?


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> The Covid Vax does not appear to do well at stopping infection
> 
> At this point the vaccination provides a private benefit, protection vs severe disease and death.
> 
> But limited public benefit , as it doesn't necessarily do well at preventing spread.
> 
> So then the hot button issue of the day, what is the argument for VAX mandates ?


... profit.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> What do you think their death rates would look like if vaccinations weren’t so high?


...which age group and pre-existing health conditions?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MacDre said:


> Maybe it’s because most people are idiots.


Your statement implies the country is not fit for democracy. What form of government should we use?


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> The Covid Vax does not appear to do well at stopping infection
> 
> At this point the vaccination provides a private benefit, protection vs severe disease and death.
> 
> But limited public benefit , as it doesn't necessarily do well at preventing spread.
> 
> So then the hot button issue of the day, what is the argument for VAX mandates ?


To be fair, the Delta variant has thrown a wrench into everything, as has politics.  Intersecting public health with politics hardly works, unless you are trying to raise money.

To your point, the vaccines have been rather effective at preventing death and severity of disease.  The right thing to do is to push for vaccination (1 dose, 2 dose) and boosters for those that are elderly and immunecomprimised.  Once that campaign is officially underway, get on with life. Endemic management of the disease is the reality. 

  Breakthrough infections are going to be part of life, just look at Israel.  Therapeutics are on deck, ready to step in.  Big Pharma can smell blood in the water and want to make the big bucks.  

Vax mandates are likley not going to be walked back.  They are effective at getting people vaccinated and at being extremely divisive. At the end of the day, most people will abide by the mandates, they prefer to have a job.  Their will be outliers but most will comply.


----------



## MacDre

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your statement implies the country is not fit for democracy. What form of government should we use?


The form of government doesn’t matter.  The problem is and has always been too much money/power in the hands of a few corrupt individuals.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> To be fair, the Delta variant has thrown a wrench into everything, as has politics.  Intersecting public health with politics hardly works, unless you are trying to raise money.
> 
> To your point, the vaccines have been rather effective at preventing death and severity of disease.  The right thing to do is to push for vaccination (1 dose, 2 dose) and boosters for those that are elderly and immunecomprimised.  Once that campaign is officially underway, get on with life. Endemic management of the disease is the reality.
> 
> Breakthrough infections are going to be part of life, just look at Israel.  Therapeutics are on deck, ready to step in.  Big Pharma can smell blood in the water and want to make the big bucks.
> 
> Vax mandates are likley not going to be walked back.  They are effective at getting people vaccinated and at being extremely divisive. At the end of the day, most people will abide by the mandates, they prefer to have a job.  Their will be outliers but most will comply.


There appears to be a growing number of people who are pushing back against these mandates, I agree that losing your job is a motivating factor. That doesn't make mandates right

The rubber will meet the road so to speak once they start trying to enforce mandates on children, especially young children. 

This is not going end well for the people in power, and I believe the Biden administration knows that. He is in a bind


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MacDre said:


> The form of government doesn’t matter.  The problem is and has always been too much money/power in the hands of a few corrupt individuals.


You sound as if you have little hope of a good outcome in the US. What's stopping you from going to a country with a lower ratio of idiots and money/power dispersed more equitably among corrupt individuals?


----------



## met61

what-happened said:


> To be fair, the Delta variant has thrown a wrench into everything, as has politics.  Intersecting public health with politics hardly works, unless you are trying to raise money.
> 
> To your point, the vaccines have been rather effective at preventing death and severity of disease.  The right thing to do is to push for vaccination (1 dose, 2 dose) and boosters for those that are elderly and immunecomprimised.  Once that campaign is officially underway, get on with life. Endemic management of the disease is the reality.
> 
> Breakthrough infections are going to be part of life, just look at Israel.  Therapeutics are on deck, ready to step in.  Big Pharma can smell blood in the water and want to make the big bucks.
> 
> Vax mandates are likley not going to be walked back.  They are effective at getting people vaccinated and at being extremely divisive. At the end of the day, most people will abide by the mandates, they prefer to have a job.  Their will be outliers but most will comply.


...image that, what government can do to sheep by threatening their job and way of life.

...can you give me a good reason  why congress & staff are exempt from the federal employee vaccine mandate?


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your statement implies the country is not fit for democracy. What form of government should we use?


...how about one for the people and by the people, oh wait!


----------



## MacDre

kickingandscreaming said:


> You sound as if you have little hope of a good outcome in the US. What's stopping you from going to a country with a lower ratio of idiots and money/power dispersed more equitably among corrupt individuals?


Incorrect.  I’m talking about people and people are flawed.  Therefore, these problems exist everywhere.


----------



## what-happened

met61 said:


> ...image that, what government can do to sheep by threatening their job and way of life.
> 
> ...can you give me a good reason  why congress & staff are exempt from the federal employee vaccine mandate?


1.Yep - happens in capitalism and democracy all the time.  Maybe people will vote on principle as opposed to emotion next time.

2. Because rules for thee and not for me is an official US Government Policy Directive. 

Voting is a thing.


----------



## watfly

I don't know if vaccines were necessarily oversold, it seems Delta may have put the wrench into things like W-H states.  Were the scientific experts not forthright about the possibility of breakthrough infections to this extent? or did it come as a surprise to them as well?  The vaccine works pretty well, not well enough to be mandated and in light of other options, but an incredible accomplishment given the speed at which it was developed.  Based on the current evidence it doesn't work as well as immunity from previous infection, but it's clearly not sound medical advice to take the Amish approach and intentionally get infected.

What has been oversold is the fact that we can or that we should try to eliminate the virus entirely, instead of finding ways to live with it.  It didn't start that way, remember it was just about flattening the curve, but it evolved into elimination of the virus.  Repeatedly we were told if you just do this, then the virus will be gone, or you will be protected and can we can return to normal.  The stick with the carrot kept getting longer and longer.  In the meantime, businesses failed and employees were rewarded for not working.  (I attended a webinar and the economist speaking said for every dollar of income lost the stimulus paid $3).  Now we have serious inflation for everyday items and supply chain disruptions that are expected to last through next summer.   Our children, particularly the underprivileged, have fallen months or possibly a couple years behind in their education because our leadership has chased a false premise that the virus can be eliminated.  A virus that is threat to a very small and easily identifiable population.

I have no doubts that history will look at back at our response to the pandemic as "the cure was worse than the disease", particularly as to the impact to our children.  Which the totality of those impacts are still years away from being determined.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> You sound as if you have little hope of a good outcome in the US. What's stopping you from going to a country with a lower ratio of idiots and money/power dispersed more equitably among corrupt individuals?


...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.

When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...how about one for the people and by the people, oh wait!


If you are not a descendant of the first settlers that received land grants, the whole “by the people and for the people” thing probably doesn’t apply to you.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> If you are not a descendant of the first settlers that received land grants, the whole “by the people and for the people” thing probably doesn’t apply to you.


Ah, the victim, I mean cop out thing again...you were given American citizenship and an opportunity, your choice what to do with it.


----------



## whatithink

met61 said:


> ...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.
> 
> When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?


Why would the people in power create or support a system that would hold the people in power accountable when they abuse the power they have been given or the power they have decided to give themselves?

Politicians love culture wars because it causes people to vote based on emotive issues and not facts. It results in turkeys voting for Thanksgiving/Christmas.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> Maybe it’s because most people are idiots.


The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote?  Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king?  Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote?  or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> The vaccine was certainly not sold as Hey get the shot ,but we aren't sure how effective it actually is at preventing you from catching or transmitting covid.
> 
> Anyone arguing otherwise, is Monday Morning Qb"ing
> 
> How do we know this, because when breakthrough cases actually started, there was general shock in the public and it was front page news.
> 
> Of course, our experts knew this. So, why are we continuing to not get the full truth from our health "experts"? Why do they treat us like children, that we somehow can't handle the truth ? And people wonder why the public continues to lose confidence in the people who are supposed to be the "experts".


So your issue is with the sales pitch?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.
> 
> When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?


I don't really blame the government for the deaths so much (other than Coumo and Murphy's nursing home policy).  They need to be held accountable for damage they've done to our small business economy, delay in other medical care and interruption to a children's education and well-being.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I don't know if vaccines were necessarily oversold, it seems Delta may have put the wrench into things like W-H states.  Were the scientific experts not forthright about the possibility of breakthrough infections to this extent? or did it come as a surprise to them as well?  The vaccine works pretty well, not well enough to be mandated and in light of other options, but an incredible accomplishment given the speed at which it was developed.  Based on the current evidence it doesn't work as well as immunity from previous infection, but it's clearly not sound medical advice to take the Amish approach and intentionally get infected.
> 
> What has been oversold is the fact that we can or that we should try to eliminate the virus entirely, instead of finding ways to live with it.  It didn't start that way, remember it was just about flattening the curve, but it evolved into elimination of the virus.  Repeatedly we were told if you just do this, then the virus will be gone, or you will be protected and can we can return to normal.  The stick with the carrot kept getting longer and longer.  In the meantime, businesses failed and employees were rewarded for not working.  (I attended a webinar and the economist speaking said for every dollar of income lost the stimulus paid $3).  Now we have serious inflation for everyday items and supply chain disruptions that are expected to last through next summer.   Our children, particularly the underprivileged, have fallen months or possibly a couple years behind in their education because our leadership has chased a false premise that the virus can be eliminated.  A virus that is threat to a very small and easily identifiable population.
> 
> I have no doubts that history will look at back at our response to the pandemic as "the cure was worse than the disease", particularly as to the impact to our children.  Which the totality of those impacts are still years away from being determined.


I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Great example of misinformation.  They claimed 90% "efficacy" and the trials weren't even done.  Wonder why they did that?  Big difference between efficacy and effectiveness - you can look it up.  It's likely that the FDA was going to approve safe vaccines  above 50% efficacy.
> 
> Again, Big Pharma influencing and driving messaging.  We really don't know how effective these vaccines are.  We will eventually.  For now studies will continue, decisions will be made, and more money will be made.  In reality, vaccines aren't a big money driver, therapeutics are.  But why miss an opportunity to get big federal dollars to develop, test, manufacture product that is considered life saving and essential.  It's a no brainer.


Now you're just making things up.  I thought you wanted an objective discussion.  It appears that you  just wanted an outlet for rants


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> Ah, the victim, I mean cop out thing again...you were given American citizenship and an opportunity, your choice what to do with it.


You’re missing my point.  My wife’s family for example were part of the French that received land grants in Northern Florida in and around Tallahassee.  In the early 1900’s my wife’s great grandpa from Quincy, FL was able to invest $500 into Coca-Cola because he had so much land.  Today, I believe Quincy has more millionaires per capita than any other place in the USA.

I see you’re still drinking the kool aide from your HS civics classes.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Now you're just making things up.  I thought you wanted an objective discussion.  It appears that you  just wanted an outlet for rants


Still not answering those direct questions.  I thought you wanted to contribute to the conversation.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote?  Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king?  Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote?  or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).


Sounds like you are describing trump and his followers to a “T” (pun intended).


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents.


That’s the job description for parents…. To make decisions and advocate for their children.


----------



## met61

what-happened said:


> 1.Yep - happens in capitalism and democracy all the time.  Maybe people will vote on principle as opposed to emotion next time.
> 
> 2. Because rules for thee and not for me is an official US Government Policy Directive.
> 
> Voting is a thing.


Yeah that's the issue...because the massive dollars flowing between politicians, big tech, and media have no influence on human emotion and decision making.

Maybe check out documentaries like "Social Dilemma" or the many studies and experts sounding alarms regarding toxic digital effects...it might be a little more than just an individual's independent vote.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?


Yeah my son loved the lockdown, he went fishing and skating everyday.  Not sure how that will serve him educationally in the long run.  Although have you seen how much money in sponsorships and tournament purses guys make on the pro bass fishing tour?  Get lemons, make lemonade.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote?  Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king?  Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote?  or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).


I think your analysis assumes that all are free to vote and that we have choice in who we vote for.  The system is rigged.  

What chance does the average person have at running for and winning an election?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Now you're just making things up.  I thought you wanted an objective discussion.  It appears that you  just wanted an outlet for rants


Listen Sugar Ray Leonard, you don't have a clue.  It's public information.  Your choice to ignore.


----------



## what-happened

met61 said:


> Yeah that's the issue...because the massive dollars flowing between politicians, big tech, and media have no influence on human emotion and decision making.
> 
> Maybe check out documentaries like "Social Dilemma" or the many studies and experts sounding alarms regarding toxic digital effects...it might be a little more than just an individual's independent vote.


I don't disgree with anything you've stated, they are obvious factors in modern culture, especially in a country as free as ours.  We may complain about the suppression of our individual freedoms but juxtapose with the rest of the world, and we are still the wild wild west. 

There are places in Montana ,Wyoming and the Yukon where people can go to avoid politicians, big tech, and media.  Or you can choose to live a sensible life, navigate the good and bad this country has to offer, and stick to your principles.  This too shall pass.  Brandon will eventually be replaced by someone else.


----------



## MacDre

watfly said:


> Yeah my son loved the lockdown, he went fishing and skating everyday.  Not sure how that will serve him educationally in the long run.  Although have you seen how much money in sponsorships and tournament purses guys make on the pro bass fishing tour?  Get lemons, make lemonade.


I think for your son, 1 year of constructivist learning by fishing and skating will be more beneficial because he’s had less of the government mandated brainwashing that occurs in most schools.  All kids needs to learn from school is how to read, write, and count (3 R’s).


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> Still not answering those direct questions.  I thought you wanted to contribute to the conversation.


Does not, will not, doesn't have the bandwidth for it.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> I don't really blame the government for the deaths so much (other than Coumo and Murphy's nursing home policy).  They need to be held accountable for damage they've done to our small business economy, delay in other medical care and interruption to a children's education and well-being.


... I didn't specifically say covid, take your pick from the many government failures throughout your lifetime.

...although many deaths are / will be resultant from what you mentioned, no? ---> "They need to be held accountable for damage they've done to our small business economy, delay in other medical care and interruption to a children's education and well-being."


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. *Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?*


What does this even mean?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.
> 
> When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?


I believe you have it upside down. We are at each others' throats, so politicians exploit that to get elected. The core of our division is that we don't see enough of ourselves in others and others in ourselves. A single difference of opinion can be grounds for ending any type of engagement, permanently, or insulting, denigrating, and dehumanizing. With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> I think your analysis assumes that all are free to vote and that we have choice in who we vote for.  The system is rigged.
> 
> What chance does the average person have at running for and winning an election?


Even if you don't think the system is "free" it doesn't absolve you from your dilemma: either: a) you just want to handle power to different masters...different elites to replace the corrupt ones, or b) you want to hand power back to the idiots.  Thinking things would be better if you were just in charge isn't a new thing....Plato and Aristotle thought about this long before you....philosopher king v. tyrant, oligarchy v. aristocracy, mob v. democracy....same thoughts, new wrapping.


----------



## watfly

MacDre said:


> I think for your son, 1 year of constructivist learning by fishing and skating will be more beneficial because he’s had less of the government mandated brainwashing that occurs in most schools.  All kids needs to learn from school is how to read, write, and count (3 R’s).


No doubt, but you and I had the resources to mitigate the damage.  Many families didn't, and do not.  The number of kids that didn't even logon during virtual learning is insane.  In LA I believe it was as high as 40% for the end of the 2020 school year.  I seriously doubt that those kids had a lot of positive alternative activities to enrich their lives.  Even with our resources and options my daughter struggled with the lockdown.  Not all kids are the same, but without a doubt all kids lost formal learning opportunities.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> You’re missing my point.  My wife’s family for example were part of the French that received land grants in Northern Florida in and around Tallahassee.  In the early 1900’s my wife’s great grandpa from Quincy, FL was able to invest $500 into Coca-Cola because he had so much land.  Today, I believe Quincy has more millionaires per capita than any other place in the USA.
> 
> I see you’re still drinking the kool aide from your HS civics classes.


...and you're missing my point by standing in your life and pointing at everyone else's life.

...also, as opposed to your new revisionist woke HS civics class?


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?


Maybe because you do t have any “children” of younger ages.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> So your issue is with the sales pitch?


I have no issues with the vaccines, in fact I'm pro vaccine and would recommend everyone who is of adult age take the vaccine 

This goes to the broader point of the messaging around covid/vaccines,  everything has been terrible . Of course the sales pitch was terrible, why do you think Biden swerved back in May to say "Get Vaxxed or Mask"

IF the crisis ( pandemic ) ends, the ability to sell the American people that revolutionary change needs to take place ends.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?


Stop asking questions, shut up , and take the vaccine. 

Yes, we understand the messaging, its clear as day


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Still not answering those direct questions.  I thought you wanted to contribute to the conversation.


Ha! No, you didn't.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Elites giving more conspiracy fodder to the extremes. These guys just can't help themselves. Journalism is on life support and its failures are driving the divide in our country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan forces Dr. Sanjay Gupta to admit CNN shouldn't have called his COVID treatment 'horse dewormer'
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan confronted CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta over his network's claims that the podcast host took "horse dewormer" as a COVID treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


They fail because they report the news with an agenda. In other words they are no longer reporting but trying to influence. 
And of course info comes out constantly that contradicts what they have been peddling.


----------



## MacDre

watfly said:


> No doubt, but you and I had the resources to mitigate the damage.  Many families didn't, and do not.  The number of kids that didn't even logon during virtual learning is insane.  In LA I believe it was as high as 40% for the end of the 2020 school year.  I seriously doubt that those kids had a lot of positive alternative activities to enrich their lives.  Even with our resources and options my daughter struggled with the lockdown.  Not all kids are the same, but without a doubt all kids lost formal learning opportunities.


I get it.  I enrolled my kid in our local public school for the first time because her school in Mexico is still 100% online.  She tells me that many of the kids are struggling.  My school district has a housing project, trailer park, and affluent kids.  You’d think that with only 450 students in the HS, the district could meet the needs of the disadvantaged kids but it’s not happening.  I think the districts solution is to send the kids from the trailer parks and housing projects to the continuation school and leave the HS for the affluent kids.  I don’t even want to think about how a district as large as LAUSD is dealing with the fallout from Covid.

I just received a message from the Superintendent that Covid is down, Flu is up, and we have a shortage of bus drivers.


----------



## whatithink

MacDre said:


> I think your analysis assumes that all are free to vote and that we have choice in who we vote for.  The system is rigged.
> 
> What chance does the average person have at running for and winning an election?


Things that unite R & D party leaders

there will only be R & D parties in the US. 
the first past the post voting system.
they can be given as much money as they can take


----------



## whatithink

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe you have it upside down. We are at each others' throats, so politicians exploit that to get elected. The core of our division is that we don't see enough of ourselves in others and others in ourselves. A single difference of opinion can be grounds for ending any type of engagement, permanently, or insulting, denigrating, and dehumanizing. With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising.


I think the cause is more the information age and information bubble people are wrapped in, decided for them by tech companies delivering content based on what you previously did, not on any beneficial objective basis.

The information bubbles and the extremes they are going to are no different, imv, than the madras schools - and look who (minority) comes out of those.


----------



## Desert Hound

Brav520 said:


> So then the hot button issue of the day, what is the argument for VAX mandates ?


They have not really explained the logic on this have they? 

If the vaxxed still spread at close to the same rates as the unvaxxed, what exactly is the point of vax mandates? It certainly doesn't stop the spread?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> They have not really explained the logic on this have they?
> 
> If the vaxxed still spread at close to the same rates as the unvaxxed, what exactly is the point of vax mandates? It certainly doesn't stop the spread?


The vaccinated infections are less severe, for less time, resulting in less hospitalizations and less deaths.


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> They have not really explained the logic on this have they?
> 
> If the vaxxed still spread at close to the same rates as the unvaxxed, what exactly is the point of vax mandates? It certainly doesn't stop the spread?


Ive asked this, seems the response is that we are protecting the well being of others 

but if the vaccinated can catch and spread the virus , and the unvaccinated can catch and spread the virus , yes who are we protecting ?

Are we protecting the well-being of the unvaccinated, because that would be odd. They are being demonized by the left


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> You may have thought a booster was going to eventually be needed but the general public wasn't pitched the idea.  The vaccine schedule (2 doses for Pfizer/Moderna, 1 for JJ) was sold as the ticket  to backyard freedom.  While the development of the vaccines(s) was impressive, the messaging and politization of the product left a lot to be desired.  It's a very useful tool to manage the disease, but it's not the only one.
> 
> As far as your kid's vaccination, pediatric vaccination is based on a vaccine schedule.  Boosters and vaccine schedules are fundamentally different.  Generally speaking, live vaccines don't need boosters.  And if given a booster, the timing is well beyond the 6-8 months that's been proposed for the covid vaccine.
> 
> As far as covid boosters are concerned, there is much disagreement as to who gets a booster, when, etc.  There isn't enough safety data available for the CDC/FDA to make a blanket approval.


The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.

It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:

1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.

Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I think the cause is more the information age and information bubble people are wrapped in, decided for them by tech companies delivering content based on what you previously did, not on any beneficial objective basis.
> 
> The information bubbles and the extremes they are going to are no different, imv, than the madras schools - and look who (minority) comes out of those.


It's not just that.  Western philosophy (Eastern is more complicated and has been polluted by western thought which leads to strange anomalies like a democratic industrial Japan and a communist China which is authoritarian but bears little resemblance to Marxist communism) has been diverging into 3 poles since the American and French revolutions: the traditionalists (who favored the state and patriotism as a buffer against the chaos of Midevalism), the modernists (who valued liberty and reason and came out of the Enlightenment) and the post modernists (who value equity and justice, born in the French revolution, and which has many uncles in many different post modernist philosophies).  The poles are wholly different ways of looking at the world and speak different languages and have different values.  Two of the poles (the post modernists and traditionalists) have decided they are existential threats to one another.

Opportunistic politicians looking to feed their power play into the divisions.  The information bubbles just push it.  One thing the pandemic has contributed to is the Great Sorting: people who can't stand their red or blue communities moving out of them....how great the Great Sorting is or will be is interesting and may accelerate or decline depending on what happens in Virginia, but it will be interesting to study to see how real it is, if at all.  Virginia (which ranges from deep establishment blue never vote anything but D in Arlington to confederate flags proudly flying down south) may very well tear itself apart.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The vaccinated infections are less severe, for less time, resulting in less hospitalizations and less deaths.


So are children.  If that's the rationale, then there's no rationale for vaxxing the kids.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> The vaccinated infections are less severe, for less time, resulting in less hospitalizations and less deaths.


I have nothing against vaccines. I have an issue when they try vaxx passports. If someone choses not to get vaxxed, who cares?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.
> 
> It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:
> 
> 1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
> 2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.
> 
> Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.


The wind would go out of the sails of the anti-vax campaign if you: a) recognized naturally immunity, b) didn't force it on the kids, c) recognized the novavax vaccine, and d) hadn't flip flopped on the restrictions.  It only has any staying power because people dug their heels in at the high handedness of the health authorities.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> They have not really explained the logic on this have they?
> 
> If the vaxxed still spread at close to the same rates as the unvaxxed, what exactly is the point of vax mandates? It certainly doesn't stop the spread?


The vax mandates will melt into the background once the FDA gives the green light for therapeutics.  Just an opinion.  We would very well carry on with mandates but stop short on boosters.  Boostering every 6-8 months is not tenable, convenient, or efficient.  Pills are the way to go.

No one will admit that we've been learning on the fly on how to treat this disease.  It's unlike anything we've seen.   Remember ventilators? This virus  behaves differently, at times not making sense to anyone.  But don't worry, more money to be made.  Stay tuned for the commercials with people sauntering through a wheat field with sunflowers in their hair, feeling great after taking whatever pill(s) are finally approved.  It's coming.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Listen Sugar Ray Leonard, you don't have a clue.  It's public information.  Your choice to ignore.


q.e.d.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.
> 
> It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:
> 
> 1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
> 2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.
> 
> Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.



so what is the endgame here


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> It's not just that.  Western philosophy (Eastern is more complicated and has been polluted by western thought which leads to strange anomalies like a democratic industrial Japan and a communist China which is authoritarian but bears little resemblance to Marxist communism) has been diverging into 3 poles since the American and French revolutions: the traditionalists (who favored the state and patriotism as a buffer against the chaos of Midevalism), the modernists (who valued liberty and reason and came out of the Enlightenment) and the post modernists (who value equity and justice, born in the French revolution, and which has many uncles in many different post modernist philosophies).  The poles are wholly different ways of looking at the world and speak different languages and have different values.  Two of the poles (the post modernists and traditionalists) have decided they are existential threats to one another.
> 
> Opportunistic politicians looking to feed their power play into the divisions.  The information bubbles just push it.  One thing the pandemic has contributed to is the Great Sorting: people who can't stand their red or blue communities moving out of them....how great the Great Sorting is or will be is interesting and may accelerate or decline depending on what happens in Virginia, but it will be interesting to study to see how real it is, if at all.  Virginia (which ranges from deep establishment blue never vote anything but D in Arlington to confederate flags proudly flying down south) may very well tear itself apart.


I think for the US its less philosophical than that. When 2 of the 3 branches of the legislative branch can be controlled by a minority of the voters, and those 2 branches in turn can control the judicial branch, then there is some very fundamental flaws in the system.

No politician really wants to runs on policy (or be judged on it), culture issues are much easier to run on and much easier to roll with for cycle after cycle.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> They have not really explained the logic on this have they?
> 
> If the vaxxed still spread at close to the same rates as the unvaxxed, what exactly is the point of vax mandates? It certainly doesn't stop the spread?


Wrong (again).









						No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
					

This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's not just that.  Western philosophy (Eastern is more complicated and has been polluted by western thought which leads to strange anomalies like a democratic industrial Japan and a communist China which is authoritarian but bears little resemblance to Marxist communism) has been diverging into 3 poles since the American and French revolutions: the traditionalists (who favored the state and patriotism as a buffer against the chaos of Midevalism), the modernists (who valued liberty and reason and came out of the Enlightenment) and the post modernists (who value equity and justice, born in the French revolution, and which has many uncles in many different post modernist philosophies).  The poles are wholly different ways of looking at the world and speak different languages and have different values.  Two of the poles (the post modernists and traditionalists) have decided they are existential threats to one another.
> 
> Opportunistic politicians looking to feed their power play into the divisions.  The information bubbles just push it.  One thing the pandemic has contributed to is the Great Sorting: people who can't stand their red or blue communities moving out of them....how great the Great Sorting is or will be is interesting and may accelerate or decline depending on what happens in Virginia, but it will be interesting to study to see how real it is, if at all.  Virginia (which ranges from deep establishment blue never vote anything but D in Arlington to confederate flags proudly flying down south) may very well tear itself apart.


You're babbling.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I think for the US its less philosophical than that. When 2 of the 3 branches of the legislative branch can be controlled by a minority of the voters, and those 2 branches in turn can control the judicial branch, then there is some very fundamental flaws in the system.
> 
> No politician really wants to runs on policy (or be judged on it), culture issues are much easier to run on and much easier to roll with for cycle after cycle.


No it's not.  The Ds are being pulled by the post modernist on both the economic and cultural issue front (it's that they don't want to upset their donor base that the emphasis has been more cultural...post modernism suffers from a contradiction that it's adherents are usually the wealthiest and best educated)...the Rs by the traditionalists like Trump.  Modernists like Sinema, Manchin, Romney or McCain were caught in the middle of it all and have had to make a choice over what's the lesser of two evils.  Some modernists, like McConnell or HRC or Biden, tried to coop the wings, with varying but generally little degrees of success.

The federalist system is the only thing holding the country together right now.  It's the only way we get through this really, especially if the Great Sorting becomes even more pronounced and noticeable.  Biden was elected as a caretaker president who could hopefully try to pull the country together...the fact that he hasn't is the chief reason why his poll numbers are so down....it was especially the hope of the moderates in the center.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I have nothing against vaccines. I have an issue when they try vaxx passports. If someone choses not to get vaxxed, who cares?


Those of us who are conscientious of our health and prefer to stay away from those who are not.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.
> 
> It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:
> 
> 1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
> 2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.
> 
> Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.


I am not one that buys what Big Pharma is selling.  Way too many years living, working under their umbrella.  Pfizer did a press release that said 90%, they weren't even finished with their trials yet.  they've never gone back to correct the record. The FDA would have approved a vaccine at 50% or above.

I don't buy the fact that there is a coordinated national anti-vax campaign.  The government shot itself in the foot with their messaging and stance. At some point they should be held accountable..but they won't be .   Blame politicians for politicizing public health. We are just now seeing good numbers in minority vaccination.  That could have been addressed much earlier.  Instead politicians engaged in a culture war.    Vaccine hesitancy is a real thing, just ask people in MS who've been skeptical of any type of federal public health intervention since the 30s. 

Delta certainly accelereated spread but the vaccines are effective against Delta.  An unbiased, transparent vaccination campaign would have fared better than what occurred.  The tone was set in 2019 and early 2020.  You can thank DC for that.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're babbling.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again you handsome devil!"


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> q.e.d.


We should ask Dominic to limit your QED and strawman posts.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> We should ask Dominic to limit your QED and strawman posts.


Why would he want to limit true statements?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Those of us who are conscientious of our health and prefer to stay away from those who are not.


if you have gotten the Vax, and are still uncomfortable with living your life, that is fine. I'd question why that is, but you are free to make that choice.

I don't see how that gives you the right to force something on people, so that you are comfortable


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You feel the vax isn't living up to billing.  I feel it is amazingly effective, even with known limitations.  We aren't in agreement on this one.
> 
> Seems like most of my kids' vaccinations had boosters.  The possibility of a booster doesn't surprise me at all.  Kind of what I expected.


It's a fact that vaccines hitch hike on the immune system of all those cases you hyped from the start.  Not to mention sanitation systems and clean drinking water.  When you take in to consideration the arsenal of integrated systems that humans rely on vaccines are not that amazing.  They are just a part of the arsenal required to help the immuno compromised and the old.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Why would he want to limit true statements?


q.e.d.


----------



## watfly

MacDre said:


> I get it.  I enrolled my kid in our local public school for the first time because her school in Mexico is still 100% online.  She tells me that many of the kids are struggling.  My school district has a housing project, trailer park, and affluent kids.  You’d think that with only 450 students in the HS, the district could meet the needs of the disadvantaged kids but it’s not happening.  I think the districts solution is to send the kids from the trailer parks and housing projects to the continuation school and leave the HS for the affluent kids.  I don’t even want to think about how a district as large as LAUSD is dealing with the fallout from Covid.
> 
> I just received a message from the Superintendent that Covid is down, Flu is up, and we have a shortage of bus drivers.


IMO California elementary schools are great, middle schools are pretty good and our high schools are a disaster, particularly for kids that need extra assistance.  I find too many HS teachers are straight up lazy, more worried about their rights than their obligations.  A lot of the principals aren't any better.  We have a new principal that shows up in a hoody and sweatpants with her shirt hanging out...looks like she just rolled out of bed.  Ever since she started she has just cancelled existing school programs because they "require too much work and teacher support".  It sometimes takes months for my daughters teachers to grade papers and often weeks to score tests that don't involve a scantron. 

It's not just bus drivers that are needed, its a shortage of school food service workers, maintenance workers etc.  Remember that 4.3 million people quit their jobs in August.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

MacDre said:


> You are Monday morning quarterbacking!


Funny, that's how this pandemic started.


----------



## Brav520

if the vaccination  is really really good at protecting you from serious illness and death( which it is ) then what is the concern being around unvaccinated people? Shouldn't you have at least also have some concern being around vaccinated people since they can still spread it ?

you just don't want to get sick, with flu like symptoms ? Ok, understandable , is that the same mentality you have always had around flu season ?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> I have nothing against vaccines. I have an issue when they try vaxx passports. If someone choses not to get vaxxed, who cares?


Those paying for it care, e.g. United airlines said it cost them $50K per covid hospitalization, so they said vaccinate or pay an extra $200 a month in healthcare fees. If people choose not to vaccinate, then they can do that, in the knowledge that there may be consequences. That's fine by me, just stop complaining about those consequences if "you" don't like them.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> So are children.  If that's the rationale, then there's no rationale for vaxxing the kids.


yeah, kids are not the problem.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Those paying for it care, e.g. United airlines said it cost them $50K per covid hospitalization, so they said vaccinate or pay an extra $200 a month in healthcare fees. If people choose not to vaccinate, then they can do that, in the knowledge that there may be consequences. That's fine by me, just stop complaining about those consequences if "you" don't like them.


That's why UA buys insurance for their employees.  They nor you should be complaining when UA has to pay for what they agreed to.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> The vaccinated infections are less severe, for less time, resulting in less hospitalizations and less deaths.


Previously infected are less severe if they notice at all.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> No it's not.  The Ds are being pulled by the post modernist on both the economic and cultural issue front (it's that they don't want to upset their donor base that the emphasis has been more cultural...post modernism suffers from a contradiction that it's adherents are usually the wealthiest and best educated)...the Rs by the traditionalists like Trump.  Modernists like Sinema, Manchin, Romney or McCain were caught in the middle of it all and have had to make a choice over what's the lesser of two evils.  Some modernists, like McConnell or HRC or Biden, tried to coop the wings, with varying but generally little degrees of success.
> 
> The federalist system is the only thing holding the country together right now.  It's the only way we get through this really, especially if the Great Sorting becomes even more pronounced and noticeable.  Biden was elected as a caretaker president who could hopefully try to pull the country together...the fact that he hasn't is the chief reason why his poll numbers are so down....it was especially the hope of the moderates in the center.


Money maketh politicians (in the US esp.), labels help make them look like they give a crap about the electorate while they continue to ensure that the money makers continue to make more money. New money is just as engaged, e.g. look at how much the tech companies that the Rs have railed against give to the Rs, TX is a case in point.

The current system will pull this country apart. The tyranny of the minority is more dangerous than the tyranny of the majority that the Senate, in particular, was designed to balance.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.
> 
> It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:
> 
> 1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
> 2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.
> 
> Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe you have it upside down. We are at each others' throats, so politicians exploit that to get elected. The core of our division is that we don't see enough of ourselves in others and others in ourselves. A single difference of opinion can be grounds for ending any type of engagement, permanently, or insulting, denigrating, and dehumanizing. With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising.


Actually, I believe you are the one who has it upside down. Understandable, as you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group. But, having spent most of my adult life in the military surrounded by individuals from every corner of the country, from every race, gender, nationality, economic status, religion, and political party. I can assure you, the psychological humanity and core division you speak of is minimally measurable, if it exists at all. You see, when you look up and down military ranks, you will see noticeable and vast differences...but, you will also find the two main principles they all have in common: 1) The US Flag on their shoulder; 2) The belief the soldier on their right and left will fight and die for them.

A great country needs common principles to bond and rally around. Politicians know the quickest road to power is division within the electorate, using identity politics and pitting individuals differences against each other.

I have never seen my biracial children at their classmates throats because of their white side or brown side...hell, no one in their peer groups even notices it or brings it up. Rather, I have clearly seen politicians and their acolytes in education with grotesque political motives jamming it down their throats. 

All politicians use division and fear to generate power, but it is leftist who are leading the way in destroying our national unifying principles and identities.

It only takes a superficial amount of Wisdom and real personal experience to understand this.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

whatithink said:


> Money maketh politicians (in the US esp.), labels help make them look like they give a crap about the electorate while they continue to ensure that the money makers continue to make more money. New money is just as engaged, e.g. look at how much the tech companies that the Rs have railed against give to the Rs, TX is a case in point.
> 
> The current system will pull this country apart. The tyranny of the minority is more dangerous than the tyranny of the majority that the Senate, in particular, was designed to balance.


What babble.


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> Money maketh politicians (in the US esp.), labels help make them look like they give a crap about the electorate while they continue to ensure that the money makers continue to make more money. New money is just as engaged, e.g. look at how much the tech companies that the Rs have railed against give to the Rs, TX is a case in point.
> 
> The current system will pull this country apart. The tyranny of the minority is more dangerous than the tyranny of the majority that the Senate, in particular, was designed to balance.



its tyranny of the majority when Rs control the Senate, its tyranny of the minority when Ds control the Senate 

the left controls nearly every power point in the federal government, and all of our cultural institutions . 

Any roadblocks they are coming up against are problems with people in their own party . Maybe their policy proposals just aren't popular


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> if you have gotten the Vax, and are still uncomfortable with living your life, that is fine. I'd question why that is, but you are free to make that choice.
> 
> I don't see how that gives you the right to force something on people, so that you are comfortable


Vax passports don't require you to get a vaccination.  They require you to disclose your status in order to participate in certain public events.

Why would you have a problem with that?  Aren't you proud of your position?


----------



## SIP

There are people can’t produce antibody even they are vaccinated, there are people are not eligible for vaccine. as human race, we need to protect them. if you are vaccinated, you body knows how to kill virus faster so it doesn’t mutate out of control also. You can learn all these common knowledge at high school science class.


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> That's why UA buys insurance for their employees.  They nor you should be complaining when UA has to pay for what they agreed to.


Ah...insurance....now you are talking my language (salivating):

1. Most large companies self insure.  Claims come right out of their pockets.  The insurance card you have is mostly they insurance company admining the fund.  Reason why is the large companies are large enough to form a pool of their own and this streamlines their admin costs.
2. Those that don't self insure enter into yearly pool contracts (it's why they have yearly renewals).  Various risk factors go into what they are charged.
3. So either way the companies loose money if they have to pay out more claims.  It comes yearly out of their pocket books.
4. So for that reason, recently many companies have begun offering discounts for health screenings and penalties for things like smoking.  
5. The law in some way constrains their abilities to manage the pool: can't discriminate for example against the old or the pregnant.
6. COVID isn't really different than those risk costs....they could drive up the claims costs they pay out making it more difficult to do business....so it makes sense that companies would seek to mandate their employees get the vaccine...it makes it cheaper to insure since it lowers the risk of paying out bigger claims.
7. That's why the airline talk that Biden forced their hand is BS.  Biden is just giving them cover for what they want to do.
8.  Because otherwise the increased risk and increased cost to insure has to be balanced against your ability to hire, particularly in a constrained labor market.  That's how markets operate.
9. Particularly if your employment is at will, there's not a whole lot you can complain about.  They are free to fire you the next day, and you are free to quit.  Every year they offer you a health plan, which in most jursidictions you are free to take or reject.
10.  Without government interference, what most likely happens is they assess you a penalty (potentially quite steep) if you aren't vaccinated to make up for the risk (a risk premium) of having to cover your potential COVID costs.  

That still leaves open the issue though if someone at work gets sick from an unvaxxed person at work, and can prove that, over the costs and liabilities there, which is a different issue than the health insurance.


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> Ive asked this, seems the response is that we are protecting the well being of others
> 
> but if the vaccinated can catch and spread the virus , and the unvaccinated can catch and spread the virus , yes who are we protecting ?
> 
> Are we protecting the well-being of the unvaccinated, because that would be odd. They are being demonized by the left


... I'm thinking maybe the answer lies somewhere within "misery loves company" syndrome.


----------



## N00B

Bruddah IZ said:


> That's why UA buys insurance for their employees.  They nor you should be complaining when UA has to pay for what they agreed to.


I believe they self-insure, not ‘buy’ insurance.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> The vaccine is working as well as could be hoped for.  Remember that originally, we were hoping for something that was at least 70% effective.   We got a 90+% that eventually needs a booster.  Sounds like we got our wish.
> 
> It's reasonable to be upset that it isn't all over.  There are two causes of that:
> 
> 1- the existence of a national anti-vax campaign.
> 2- the emergence of a higher transmission variant.
> 
> Neither one of those can reasonably be blamed on the vaccine.  No vaccine can really do the job if half of us refuse to take it.


... again, which definition of vaccine are you using, the old one or new one?


----------



## Grace T.

SIP said:


> There are people can’t produce antibody even they are vaccinated, there are people are not eligible for vaccine. as human race, we need to protect them. if you are vaccinated, you body knows how to kill virus faster so it doesn’t mutate out of control also. You can learn all these common knowledge at high school science class.


Presumably high school science class taught you the same risk applies to people with flu, RSV or adenovirus.  The "people not eligible for vaccine" are mostly children, who suffer a lower rate of death, hospitalization, and long COVID than a vaxxed person in their 40s.  That leaves the immunocompromised, who are also at risk of other respiratory viruses.  We can't make policy based on that exception.  The vaccine won't help get us to zero COVID and spare them that risk if the breakthrough rate is high and increasing with time.  This argument would only stand if the vaccine had a 90% or greater chance at stopping all transmissions.


----------



## whatithink

Bruddah IZ said:


> That's why UA buys insurance for their employees.  They nor you should be complaining when UA has to pay for what they agreed to.


I don't care, but UA does. They can, that's their choice, just as its the choice of a UA employee to decline insurance or pay an extra $200 a month if they decline to vaccinate.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> The vaccinated infections are less severe, for less time, resulting in less hospitalizations and less deaths.


...which age group and pre-existing health condition are you basing this on?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Vax passports don't require you to get a vaccination.  They require you to disclose your status in order to participate in certain public events.
> 
> Why would you have a problem with that?  Aren't you proud of your position?


yeah, IM not ok with segregating a portion of our society, so you are comfortable living your life

why are you not comfortable returning to normal way of life if you are vaccinated?


----------



## N00B

SIP said:


> There are people can’t produce antibody even they are vaccinated, there are people are not eligible for vaccine. as human race, we need to protect them. if you are vaccinated, you body knows how to kill virus faster so it doesn’t mutate out of control also. You can learn all these common knowledge at high school science class.


In some people’s views (@espola) those individuals should be protected by not participating in public events. Ie no vaccination passport.  Sounds like discrimination based on a pre-existing health condition or religious belief to me


----------



## Grace T.

The damage control from Dr. Gupta's appearance continues...the sad thing about it is that he got enough of a spanking that many (whether right or left) will be reluctant to go on opposing media (the Shapiro-Kasparian debate notwithstanding).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448692329074860034


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> so what is the endgame here


It was "get our shots and open up."

Still a decent plan.  You'd still get a bunch of cases, but very few deaths or hospitalizations.

Now, if 1/3 of you want to refuse the shot and clog the ICU, then we have a problem.  Not sure what the endgame for that is.


----------



## what-happened

SIP said:


> There are people can’t produce antibody even they are vaccinated, there are people are not eligible for vaccine. as human race, we need to protect them. if you are vaccinated, you body knows how to kill virus faster so it doesn’t mutate out of control also. You can learn all these common knowledge at high school science class.


There is plenty being done to help, support, treat those with one of 40(?) identified immune deficieny disorders.  Those patients already undergo a strict daily protocol well in place pre-covid.  sars-cov-2 unfortunately is another pathogen that these patients have to deal with.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Those of us who are conscientious of our health and prefer to stay away from those who are not.


...stay home.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ... again, which definition of vaccine are you using, the old one or new one?


You're dodging the question.   

Have you figured out why Taiwanese deaths following infection are lower than Taiwanese deaths following innoculation?  

If you're stuck, try googling "base rate error".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It was "get our shots and open up."
> 
> Still a decent plan.  You'd still get a bunch of cases, but very few deaths or hospitalizations.
> 
> Now, if 1/3 of you want to refuse the shot and clog the ICU, then we have a problem.  Not sure what the endgame for that is.


The problem with the "save the ICU" rational is that in much of the country COVID is in retreat and the ICUs aren't in danger.  It also neglects that kids, the young, and the previously infected aren't part of that risk group so that 1/3 has to be reduced accordingly.  It only serves as justification for keeping restrictions in low vaxxed places where infections rise due to seasonality (not in places like San Francisco with a high vaxx rate).

Again, no one can articulate a logical reason for a vaxx mandated beyond save the idiots from themselves....


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> It was "get our shots and open up."
> 
> Still a decent plan.  You'd still get a bunch of cases, but very few deaths or hospitalizations.
> 
> Now, if 1/3 of you want to refuse the shot and clog the ICU, then we have a problem.  Not sure what the endgame for that is.


Mmmm… clogged ICUs.  Which hospital system is experiencing this issue?  There are specific hospitals that have an issue, but I not networks.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> It was "get our shots and open up."
> 
> Still a decent plan.  You'd still get a bunch of cases, but very few deaths or hospitalizations.
> 
> Now, if 1/3 of you want to refuse the shot and clog the ICU, then we have a problem.  Not sure what the endgame for that is.


see I don't buy that is the endgame here. 

Some of our elite universities across the country require vaccination and still have very restrictive covid policies.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> The problem with the "save the ICU" rational is that in much of the country COVID is in retreat and the ICUs aren't in danger.  It also neglects that kids, the young, and the previously infected aren't part of that risk group so that 1/3 has to be reduced accordingly.  It only serves as justification for keeping restrictions in low vaxxed places where infections rise due to seasonality (not in places like San Francisco with a high vaxx rate).
> 
> Again, no one can articulate a logical reason for a vaxx mandated beyond save the idiots from themselves....


But again, they are demonizing the "anti-vaxxer", in fact one unhinged poster in here seems to celebrate the deaths of the unvaccinated , especially if they are a toothless MAGA supporter . This is not an uncommon reaction from a portion of the left . These are our moral betters, these people consider themselves good people?

so, yes what is the reason for mandates


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> If you're stuck, try googling "base rate error".


*spits coffee all over the desk while laughing*

Sort of like focusing on case rate while ignoring age based risk with the sample set? Or is that more extension fallacy?


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> *spits coffee all over the desk while laughing*
> 
> Sort of like focusing on case rate while ignoring age based risk with the sample set? Or is that more extension fallacy?


aka ‘straw man’ or ‘q.e.d’


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You're dodging the question.
> 
> Have you figured out why Taiwanese deaths following infection are lower than Taiwanese deaths following innoculation?
> 
> If you're stuck, try googling "base rate error".


LOL! Why replace vaccination with innoculation?

...a month ago the CDC quietly changes the longstanding definition of vaccine / vaccination significantly...and you along with the handmaidens in the media shrug it off as if it were a typo...why?


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> *spits coffee all over the desk while laughing*
> 
> Sort of like focusing on case rate while ignoring age based risk with the sample set? Or is that more extension fallacy?


What, now you want to change the topic?

His article was making a big deal of the fact that deaths after vaccination in Taiwan are higher than deaths after infection.

This is a classic base rate error.  Taiwan has far more vaccinations than infections.   It's like pointing out that covid kills more right handed people than left handed people.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> What, now you want to change the topic?
> 
> His article was making a big deal of the fact that deaths after vaccination in Taiwan are higher than deaths after infection.
> 
> This is a classic base rate error.  Taiwan has far more vaccinations than infections.   It's like pointing out that covid kills more right handed people than left handed people.


That’s their topic.  I’ll let them reply on their own.  I just found it funny and added some context.


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> Mmmm… clogged ICUs.  Which hospital system is experiencing this issue?  There are specific hospitals that have an issue, but I not networks.


Narrative consructed by people with agendas.  Remember back to the ventilator days.  ICUs always run at or near capacity.  Full beds drive revenue.  Some smaller hospitals with smaller staffing were certainly impacted, maybe still impacted.   Based on protocols, it's more effort and people intensive to care for a covid positive patient.   

We certainly don't freak out over RSV care even though it's nearly as contagious.  And RSV has been clogging up pediatric beds/ICUs  all over the country.  Real journalism is dead for now in this country.  Journalist are too scared to go against the grain of an agenda for fear of being banished.  It's unfortunate.


----------



## Grace T.

Masks Do "More Damage To The Children" Than COVID: Belgian Academy For Medicine
					

Belgische Academie voor Geneeskunde (Belgian Academy for Medicine), the official body that coordinates Belgium’s various paediatric organisations, has…




					thepulse.one


----------



## N00B

MacDre said:


> What chance does the average person have at running for and winning an election?


Local elections are not as skewed as what you have correctly identified about privilege (whatever the form).


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Local elections are not as skewed as what you have correctly identified about privilege (whatever the form).


Not that dissimilar to talking about athleticism in relation to soccer potential.


----------



## ToonArmy

S


Grace T. said:


> So are children.  If that's the rationale, then there's no rationale for vaxxing the kids.


So are healthy adults


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Narrative consructed by people with agendas.  Remember back to the ventilator days.  ICUs always run at or near capacity.  Full beds drive revenue.  Some smaller hospitals with smaller staffing were certainly impacted, maybe still impacted.   Based on protocols, it's more effort and people intensive to care for a covid positive patient.
> 
> We certainly don't freak out over RSV care even though it's nearly as contagious.  And RSV has been clogging up pediatric beds/ICUs  all over the country.  Real journalism is dead for now in this country.  Journalist are too scared to go against the grain of an agenda for fear of being banished.  It's unfortunate.


Checking your facts --









						ICU Occupancy and mechanical ventilator use in the United States
					

Detailed data on occupancy and use of mechanical ventilators in United States intensive care units (ICU) over time and across unit types, are lacking. We sought to describe the hourly bed occupancy and use of ventilators in US ICUs to improve future planning ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## kickingandscreaming

whatithink said:


> I think the cause is more the information age and information bubble people are wrapped in, decided for them by tech companies delivering content based on what you previously did, not on any beneficial objective basis.
> 
> The information bubbles and the extremes they are going to are no different, imv, than the madras schools - and look who (minority) comes out of those.


This is a good point. It has become very easy to surround ourselves with like-minded people - consciously or not. It tends to further isolate us culturally.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Checking your facts --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICU Occupancy and mechanical ventilator use in the United States
> 
> 
> Detailed data on occupancy and use of mechanical ventilators in United States intensive care units (ICU) over time and across unit types, are lacking. We sought to describe the hourly bed occupancy and use of ventilators in US ICUs to improve future planning ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


“*Conclusions*
Occupancy of US ICUs was stable over time, but there is uneven distribution across different types and sizes of units. Only three out of ten beds were filled at any time with mechanically ventilated patients, suggesting substantial surge capacity throughout the system to care for acutely critically ill patients.”


----------



## MacDre

N00B said:


> Local elections are not as skewed as what you have correctly identified about privilege (whatever the form).


True, but in Oakland you have folks like Jerry Brown and Ron Dellums that run for Mayor.  So, I guess it depends on what you mean by local.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Checking your facts --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICU Occupancy and mechanical ventilator use in the United States
> 
> 
> Detailed data on occupancy and use of mechanical ventilators in United States intensive care units (ICU) over time and across unit types, are lacking. We sought to describe the hourly bed occupancy and use of ventilators in US ICUs to improve future planning ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


you don't even know what facts you are checking.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Those of us who are conscientious of our health and prefer to stay away from those who are not.


What BMI is acceptable for conversation?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> you don't even know what facts you are checking.


You posted " ICUs always run at or near capacity."  That's  not true.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> you don't even know what facts you are checking.


You have uncovered his essence.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> True, but in Oakland you have folks like Jerry Brown and Ron Dellums that run for Mayor.  So, I guess it depends on what you mean by local.


Once you get above about 25,000 voters, machine politics takes over.  It turns into SEIU versus police and fire.

Smaller cities, you can totally win office as an independent.  It's pretty common.

One more reason our big cities are such a mess.  The machine politics drives out the best candidates.


----------



## watfly

This is an interesting potential benefit of the vaccine.









						For subscribers: ‘Oh my gosh. I’m myself again.’ Growing evidence vaccines prevent, treat long COVID
					

Patients from San Diego to London to Paris are saying that lingering COVID-19 symptoms tend to improve after vaccination. Scientists are trying to understand why.




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				




My apologies ahead of time for posting an article that is mostly anecdotal.


----------



## Desert Hound

Could be a nice Xmas gift this year.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448258561029586948


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> Actually, I believe you are the one who has it upside down. Understandable, as you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group. But, having spent most of my adult life in the military surrounded by individuals from every corner of the country, from every race, gender, nationality, economic status, religion, and political party. I can assure you, the psychological humanity and core division you speak of is minimally measurable, if it exists at all. You see, when you look up and down military ranks, you will see noticeable and vast differences...but, you will also find the two main principles they all have in common: 1) The US Flag on their shoulder; 2) The belief the soldier on their right and left will fight and die for them.
> 
> A great country needs common principles to bond and rally around. Politicians know the quickest road to power is division within the electorate, using identity politics and pitting individuals differences against each other.
> 
> I have never seen my biracial children at their classmates throats because of their white side or brown side...hell, no one in their peer groups even notices it or brings it up. Rather, I have clearly seen politicians and their acolytes in education with grotesque political motives jamming it down their throats.
> 
> All politicians use division and fear to generate power, but it is leftist who are leading the way in destroying our national unifying principles and identities.
> 
> It only takes a superficial amount of Wisdom and real personal experience to understand this.


To be clear, when I wrote, "With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising." I was not directly addressing you. I was addressing anyone who disagreed with another. When we go directly to the actions I described, we divide - the opportunity to influence is lost.

We have much more in common than you know and your assumptions about me (you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group) are off. However, I do appreciate your perspective and the explanation you offered to explain the source of the divide. The only comment I have is that while politicians can attempt to divide, individuals must accept the division.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> Actually, I believe you are the one who has it upside down. Understandable, as you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group. But, having spent most of my adult life in the military surrounded by individuals from every corner of the country, from every race, gender, nationality, economic status, religion, and political party. I can assure you, the psychological humanity and core division you speak of is minimally measurable, if it exists at all. You see, when you look up and down military ranks, you will see noticeable and vast differences...but, you will also find the two main principles they all have in common: 1) The US Flag on their shoulder; 2) The belief the soldier on their right and left will fight and die for them.
> 
> A great country needs common principles to bond and rally around. Politicians know the quickest road to power is division within the electorate, using identity politics and pitting individuals differences against each other.
> 
> I have never seen my biracial children at their classmates throats because of their white side or brown side...hell, no one in their peer groups even notices it or brings it up. Rather, I have clearly seen politicians and their acolytes in education with grotesque political motives jamming it down their throats.
> 
> All politicians use division and fear to generate power, but it is leftist who are leading the way in destroying our national unifying principles and identities.
> 
> It only takes a superficial amount of Wisdom and real personal experience to understand this.








						this sermon should go viral #fyp #foryou #trending #NeverStopExp... | TikTok
					

381.6K Likes, 10.4K Comments. TikTok video from realbrittanydawn (@realbrittanydawn): "this sermon should go viral #fyp #foryou #trending #NeverStopExploring #texas".  original sound - realbrittanydawn.




					www.tiktok.com


----------



## Grace T.

ToonArmy said:


> S
> 
> So are healthy adults


The issue here is that a certain point age becomes more important than health. Some 30 and 40 year olds struck down which didn’t need to be.  We can argue over whether all of them had comorbidities and what constitutes “health” (if asthma diabetes and overweight count you have about 40-50% of Americans there). But yes…a skinny 40 year old that runs every day and is type 0 blood may be less at risk than a 35 overweight person with type a blood and diabeties. We can also argue about when age becomes such a risk it outweighs the risk of the vaccine (it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-45 depending on the comorbidities)


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> Could be a nice Xmas gift this year.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448258561029586948


the children of the president should be off limits !!!


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> this sermon should go viral #fyp #foryou #trending #NeverStopExp... | TikTok
> 
> 
> 381.6K Likes, 10.4K Comments. TikTok video from realbrittanydawn (@realbrittanydawn): "this sermon should go viral #fyp #foryou #trending #NeverStopExploring #texas".  original sound - realbrittanydawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tiktok.com


...I normally don't do TikTok for the same reason I don't do cigarettes...but, for you I did it. Thx


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> To be clear, when I wrote, "With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising." I was not directly addressing you. I was addressing anyone who disagreed with another. When we go directly to the actions I described, we divide - the opportunity to influence is lost.
> 
> We have much more in common than you know and your assumptions about me (you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group) are off. However, I do appreciate your perspective and the explanation you offered to explain the source of the divide. The only comment I have is that while politicians can attempt to divide, individuals must accept the division.


...wish it were as easy as accepting or declining...but the toxic influence of political money, big tech, and media make it a bit more calculated and exploitative by Pols.

...we're probably singing from the same general hymnal, just different tunes.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> To be clear, when I wrote, "With just a superficial understanding of human psychology, the outcomes we are seeing shouldn't be surprising." I was not directly addressing you. I was addressing anyone who disagreed with another. When we go directly to the actions I described, we divide - the opportunity to influence is lost.
> 
> We have much more in common than you know and your assumptions about me (you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group) are off. However, I do appreciate your perspective and the explanation you offered to explain the source of the divide. The only comment I have is that while politicians can attempt to divide, individuals must accept the division.


The world is changing and so is America the beautiful.  I can say 100% that this country is so different, you just need to drive across the country in 10 days and see for yourself   I'm so glad we did and I learned a lot of the love we have for each other and the flag and for all those who have fought & died for our freedom and Independence.  I feel Met 61 is spot on in most of Socal & NoCal Bubble.  We love each other more than we say. Mr. Ego ((my Karl)) is always trying to get in the way and win everything.  Dualism is a virus and so is DivocFear 19, which all leads to anger & terror in one's little brain and that can lead to destruction and division.  I think Met 61 is trying to say most of us live in a bubble and some have bigger bubbles.  This country is in a tough spot man.  I think the men have been wimps and keeping us from real change.  The woman have been way more on top of things from a spiritual prospective.  Division is being spewed out on the media.  I was loved by so many in our country that I will die for it, even if Espola and EOTL live.  I want my FREEDOM  & INDEPENDENCE!!!!  Surfer Barney dude in bathing suit meeting my brothers & sisters across this awesome country was amazing.  It's time we help each other, regardless of vax of no vax.  I got the virus Jan 20th, 2020 and was the very last time I was sick.  I lost 45 pounds so far and feel like a million bucks and have six pack.  Yes, I did get yelled at by a few mask enforcers in New Mexico but all n all a very great trip.  It's time to go back to your roots.  Cherokee Nation for my wife.  Scotland Highlander for Crush.  Crostialand for my pal Colin.  Hatian Town for Bruno and Aussie Place for my friend Channon.  So many more tribes to go back to.  This white and black and Indian and Asian thing seems off in my brain.  Find your true self, not fake self.  I love you all.  Red October is upon us.  Be nice and loving to all peoples.  One lady at one of the gas stations in TN told me she has never seen so many new campers with nowhere to go.  People are leaving the big cities and living off the grid or off the freeways she said.  Utah has a big problem.  Supply lines are a big mess and having a huge impact in parts of the country that has no bubble.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You posted " ICUs always run at or near capacity."  That's  not true.


Fair enough, too broad of a statement.  Depending on where you are in the country, it's not uncommmon to see 80%.  My knee jerk reaction, I'll own it.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Fair enough, too broad of a statement.  Depending on where you are in the country, it's not uncommmon to see 80%.  My knee jerk reaction, I'll own it.


I had my turn in an ICU, some of that time on a ventilator.  I don't remember any of it.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is a good point. It has become very easy to surround ourselves with like-minded people - consciously or not. It tends to further isolate us culturally.


That's one of the cool parts about youth soccer for me, hanging with parents from a variety of backgrounds, ethnicities, beliefs etc.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Yeah my son loved the lockdown, he went fishing and skating everyday.  Not sure how that will serve him educationally in the long run.  Although have you seen how much money in sponsorships and tournament purses guys make on the pro bass fishing tour?  Get lemons, make lemonade.


How ironic


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> What does this even mean?


t-party conservatives, not true conservatives.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Why would he want to limit true statements?


It’s what liars do.


----------



## met61

Disclaimer: NO GUARANTEE OF "ACCURARY" of what is actually coming out of his mouth and what your ears are actually hearing.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I had my turn in an ICU, some of that time on a ventilator.  I don't remember any of it.


Being intubated and on a ventilator is not a comfortable thing.  Being sedated during the process is a good thing.


----------



## Kicker4Life

If mandates are so necessary, why is Newsome now siding with the Labor Union (that recently donated $1.75m to his campaign) to exempt them from the Mandate?  



			https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/the-state-worker/article254990142.html


----------



## met61

crush said:


> The world is changing and so is America the beautiful.  I can say 100% that this country is so different, you just need to drive across the country in 10 days and see for yourself   I'm so glad we did and I learned a lot of the love we have for each other and the flag and for all those who have fought & died for our freedom and Independence.  I feel Met 61 is spot on in most of Socal & NoCal Bubble.  We love each other more than we say. Mr. Ego ((my Karl)) is always trying to get in the way and win everything.  Dualism is a virus and so is DivocFear 19, which all leads to anger & terror in one's little brain and that can lead to destruction and division.  I think Met 61 is trying to say most of us live in a bubble and some have bigger bubbles.  This country is in a tough spot man.  I think the men have been wimps and keeping us from real change.  The woman have been way more on top of things from a spiritual prospective.  Division is being spewed out on the media.  I was loved by so many in our country that I will die for it, even if Espola and EOTL live.  I want my FREEDOM  & INDEPENDENCE!!!!  Surfer Barney dude in bathing suit meeting my brothers & sisters across this awesome country was amazing.  It's time we help each other, regardless of vax of no vax.  I got the virus Jan 20th, 2020 and was the very last time I was sick.  I lost 45 pounds so far and feel like a million bucks and have six pack.  Yes, I did get yelled at by a few mask enforcers in New Mexico but all n all a very great trip.  It's time to go back to your roots.  Cherokee Nation for my wife.  Scotland Highlander for Crush.  Crostialand for my pal Colin.  Hatian Town for Bruno and Aussie Place for my friend Channon.  So many more tribes to go back to.  This white and black and Indian and Asian thing seems off in my brain.  Find your true self, not fake self.  I love you all.  Red October is upon us.  Be nice and loving to all peoples.  One lady at one of the gas stations in TN told me she has never seen so many new campers with nowhere to go.  People are leaving the big cities and living off the grid or off the freeways she said.  Utah has a big problem.  Supply lines are a big mess and having a huge impact in parts of the country that has no bubble.


Well said. Having lived in many States and countries and having worked with fellow Americans from every state in the Union... With the exception of a few coastal States, you will not meet a more loving, caring, and generous people than Americans. Those in the MSM... and more so, those on social media, even little old soccer forms...and in their own minds, are such of a minority and insignificant representation.

Traveling the country sure does the soul well.


----------



## GoldenGate

Hey bruddah iznoramus.  I checked your website again like you asked.  It looks like that death rate you claimed was 17 a day is now listed at 130 a day.  Man, did you get duped again.  It must be incredibly embarrassing for you to be this stupid.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Hey bruddah iznoramus.  I checked your website again like you asked.  It looks like that death rate you claimed was 17 a day is now listed at 130 a day.  Man, did you get duped again.  It must be incredibly embarrassing for you to be this stupid.View attachment 11866


The Death-O-Meter is back.  Death is all you think about.  Live life and enjoy the great outdoors and when you die, make sure you have loved one's to care for you in your last days


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> The Death-O-Meter is back.  Death is all you think about.  Live life and enjoy the great outdoors and when you die, make sure you have loved one's to care for you in your last days


I get that you do not want to think about the deaths of others, because that would require you confront why they are happening, which is that all that lion/sheep anti-mask shit that you think is so funny doesn't look nearly so hilarious when it's in the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next.  Since I doubt you click on the links I provide for all those dead Covid deniers, let me attach an example from one dead schmuck's FB feed so you can get a real good look.  So funny, right? How many similar hilarious anti-mask/vax memes and photos have you posted here and on social media?  

BTW way, I'm not focused on death.  I'm just laughing right along side you at these hilarious memes.  Ha, ha, they're just so funny, am I right? Why don't you post more of them so for us here so we can keep whooping it up?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It was "get our shots and open up."
> 
> Still a decent plan.  You'd still get a bunch of cases, but very few deaths or hospitalizations.
> 
> Now, if 1/3 of you want to refuse the shot and clog the ICU, then we have a problem.  Not sure what the endgame for that is.


Thatʻs the same crystal ball youʻve been using  to hype cases over deaths.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> The Death-O-Meter is back.  Death is all you think about.  Live life and enjoy the great outdoors and when you die, make sure you have loved one's to care for you in your last days


He talks tough but heʻs afraid.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Control Freak: I mandate you to do as I say.
> Sheep: ok
> Lion: No way
> Control Freak: I mandate you to take experimental drugs when i tell you to.
> Sheep: ok
> Lion: Never
> Control Freak: I mandate you to STFU.
> Sheep: Ok master
> Lion:  You STFU back
> Control Freak: I mandate you to take two jabs+boosters or you can't work here anymore.
> Sheep: ok
> Lion: Are you freaking crazy.  get that Baby Bat Dog Spike mix away from me and my family.  You jabbers are contagious too,  I got this flu last year and feel awesome.
> Control freak: I am your master.
> Sheep:  OK, whatever you say master mandater.
> Lion: I only have one master
> Sheep:  When will this end?
> Control Freak:  STFU and stop asking any questions you stupid sheep.
> Lion: When you wake up dumb sheep


The lion/sheep thing is just so funny and fresh.  Let's check out some of the hilarious lion/sheep jokes from the FB feeds of dead people.  OMG, these memes just crack me up so much. If only any of the people who posted them were still alive to laugh it up with us.  I hope the GoFundMe's work out for the fams.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I get that you do not want to think about the deaths of others, because that would require you confront why they are happening, which is that all that lion/sheep anti-mask shit that you think is so funny doesn't look nearly so hilarious when it's in the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next.  Since I doubt you click on the links I provide for all those dead Covid deniers, let me attach an example from one dead schmuck's FB feed so you can get a real good look.  So funny, right? How many similar hilarious anti-mask/vax memes and photos have you posted here and on social media?
> 
> BTW way, I'm not focused on death.  I'm just laughing right along side you at these hilarious memes.  Ha, ha, they're just so funny, am I right? Why don't you post more of them so for us here so we can keep whooping it up?
> 
> View attachment 11869


I guess you must be Rocky Moose.    Very tasteful. You obviosly enjoy posting pictures of the deceased, you are unable to hide the glee. This goes beyond posting a funny meme about not wearing a mask.  But anyways, we have choices in life, you've chosen this route.  I (and others) can choose to ignore you.

  Feel free to unleash an off the rail, spittle laden response.  In your case, mental midgetry always prevails.


----------



## lafalafa

Our priorities are getting or already out of whack, we're basically od'ing on Covid 19 related stuff

Meanwhile the opioid epidemic and crisis rages on &  kills more people 700k in 2020.

There is enough fentanyl in this country to kill every citizen.  There is fentanyl laced gum going around according to news sources yesterday. 

The other areas of heath care are being regulated to the 2nd fiddle to covid and the funds and resources to fight cancer, heath disease and diabetes are suffering.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Hey bruddah iznoramus.  I checked your website again like you asked.  It looks like that death rate you claimed was 17 a day is now listed at 130 a day.  Man, did you get duped again.  It must be incredibly embarrassing for you to be this stupid.View attachment 11866


Lol!!  Here you go Lamont.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> Fair enough, too broad of a statement.  Depending on where you are in the country, it's not uncommmon to see 80%.  My knee jerk reaction, I'll own it.


Hospitals are often on financial respirators if they are without customers at $ufficient to pay their bills.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> I get that you do not want to think about the deaths of others, because that would require you confront why they are happening, which is that all that lion/sheep anti-mask shit that you think is so funny doesn't look nearly so hilarious when it's in the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next.  Since I doubt you click on the links I provide for all those dead Covid deniers, let me attach an example from one dead schmuck's FB feed so you can get a real good look.  So funny, right? How many similar hilarious anti-mask/vax memes and photos have you posted here and on social media?
> 
> BTW way, I'm not focused on death.  I'm just laughing right along side you at these hilarious memes.  Ha, ha, they're just so funny, am I right? Why don't you post more of them so for us here so we can keep whooping it up?
> 
> View attachment 11869


I hope this is just your online persona.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> I guess you must be Rocky Moose.    Very tasteful. You obviosly enjoy posting pictures of the deceased, you are unable to hide the glee. This goes beyond posting a funny meme about not wearing a mask.  But anyways, we have choices in life, you've chosen this route.  I (and others) can choose to ignore you.
> 
> Feel free to unleash an off the rail, spittle laden response.  In your case, mental midgetry always prevails.


I don't enjoy any of this.  The only people who derive any glee here are those who think these memes about lions and sheep are hilarious.  Feel free to carry on posting bs lion/sheep memes and pretending they're funny and helpful, rather than contributing to people making their children orphans. Laugh it up all you want after you're done getting upset hearing the truth about how many people a day are dying in FL.


----------



## Brav520

oh you care about the lives of these people, sorry we all misinterpreted that. 

I guess looking back through all your unhinged post I can see that you are a caring, moral, and thoughtful person


----------



## crush

Golden Gate is a Coo Coo and one crazy psychopath former Doc.  He is a scared little man who picks on father of dd.  Not a father himself. He a hater towards parents like me.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> He talks tough but heʻs afraid.


He big baby with poo poo in his diaper...lol! He a big dumb dumb.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> If mandates are so necessary, why is Newsome now siding with the Labor Union (that recently donated $1.75m to his campaign) to exempt them from the Mandate?
> 
> 
> 
> https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/the-state-worker/article254990142.html


No real conflict.  Mandates are necessary and Newsom is undermining them for political gain.  ( Same as undermining the indoor dining closures by never mentioning the big casinos who help fund Dem candidates. )

He is betting, probably correctly, that he doesn’t lose many votes by failing to protect the health of inmates.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> oh you care about the lives of these people, sorry we all misinterpreted that.
> 
> I guess looking back through all your unhinged post I can see that you are a caring, moral, and thoughtful person


Did I take all the fun out of the anti-vax/meme game? 

You have very strange definitions of caring, moral and thoughtful. Actively promoting the casual disregard of things that reduce the risk of orphaning children is the opposite of caring, moral and thoughtful. Posting lion/sheep memes is the opposite of caring, moral or thoughtful. Thinking any of these memes are funny is not caring, moral or thoughtful. I didn't share any of those memes on FB for the purpose of encouraging people to be irresponsible all their way to their deaths, and it is your problem that you are so upset being confronted with reality. If you want shitpost anti-vax/mask memes and pretend Covid has been killing 1/20 of the people in FL that it is actually killing like bruddah iznoramus claims, go for it.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> Did I take all the fun out of the anti-vax/meme game?
> 
> You have very strange definitions of caring, moral and thoughtful. Actively promoting the casual disregard of things that reduce the risk of orphaning children is the opposite of caring, moral and thoughtful. Posting lion/sheep memes is the opposite of caring, moral or thoughtful. Thinking any of these memes are funny is not caring, moral or thoughtful. I didn't share any of those memes on FB for the purpose of encouraging people to be irresponsible all their way to their deaths, and it is your problem that you are so upset being confronted with reality. If you want shitpost anti-vax/mask memes and pretend Covid has been killing 1/20 of the people in FL that it is actually killing like bruddah iznoramus claims, go for it.



sorry, I can't believe I misread all your post.

You are the moral, thoughtful and caring person in here.

You care about the kids.

I should be thanking you, we all should.

I think calling these people dumbfucks/idiots and rightwing nut jobs is a unique way to get them to take the vaccine

"Hey you dumbfuck take the vaccine. I care about you and your children's future"


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Being intubated and on a ventilator is not a comfortable thing.  Being sedated during the process is a good thing.


I was sitting in my living room talking with my wife about travel plans.  The next thing I know it is 2 days later, I'm in a hospital bed, and a doctor is taking me if I am ready to go home.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> sorry, I can't believe I misread all your post.
> 
> You are the moral, thoughtful and caring person in here.
> 
> You care about the kids.
> 
> I should be thanking you, we all should.
> 
> I think calling these people dumbfucks/idiots and rightwing nut jobs is a unique way to get them to take the vaccine
> 
> "Hey you dumbfuck take the vaccine. I care about you and your children's future"


Would it be better if I just posted an anti-vax/mask meme a day, and then we all just had a good laugh about it and pretended it wasn't in the FB feeds of scores of dead people? Would that be more to your liking?

Or maybe you'd feel better if I started posting demonstrably false graphs misrepresenting that only a few people a day are dying of Covid in FL, so we could pretend that 200-300 a day in FL is really only 17?  It would certainly make those memes a lot easier to laugh at, right?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Lol!!  Here you go Lamont.


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> sorry, I can't believe I misread all your post.
> 
> You are the moral, thoughtful and caring person in here.
> 
> You care about the kids.
> 
> I should be thanking you, we all should.
> 
> I think calling these people dumbfucks/idiots and rightwing nut jobs is a unique way to get them to take the vaccine
> 
> "Hey you dumbfuck take the vaccine. I care about you and your children's future"


I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.

Three different biologists dropped by to explain the science.  That doesn’t work.

Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here.  

After all, we still have almost 2000 people dying each day because of this.  Maybe it’s worth paying a bit of attention to the advice we have been given?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Three different biologists dropped by to explain the science.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here.
> 
> After all, we still have almost 2000 people dying each day because of this.  Maybe it’s worth paying a bit of attention to the advice we have been given?


First it was case hyping, now death hyping.  WE all know that you didn't see those 700k death certs.  So why do you post as if you have?


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Three different biologists dropped by to explain the science.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> *Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here. *
> 
> After all, we still have almost 2000 people dying each day because of this.  Maybe it’s worth paying a bit of attention to the advice we have been given?



yes, calling people dumbfucks will work . Its a brilliant idea 

Hey Dumbfuck take the vaccine you stupid mother fucking idiot 

take the vaccine and move on with your life, try to stay healthy. if you can't do that , then that's on you


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> Would it be better if I just posted an anti-vax/mask meme a day, and then we all just had a good laugh about it and pretended it wasn't in the FB feeds of scores of dead people? Would that be more to your liking?
> 
> Or maybe you'd feel better if I started posting demonstrably false graphs misrepresenting that only a few people a day are dying of Covid in FL, so we could pretend that 200-300 a day in FL is really only 17?  It would certainly make those memes a lot easier to laugh at, right?


I don't know you, but I hope you can find happiness in life.  Im still hoping that someone like you can co-exist with someone like me. I am a little saddened that it appears we as a country are ripping apart at the seams. 

But I do try to sep online life/ real life. Can't say I've run into anyone like you in person, so that gives me hope


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Three different biologists dropped by to explain the science.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here.
> 
> After all, we still have almost 2000 people dying each day because of this.  Maybe it’s worth paying a bit of attention to the advice we have been given?


This is just weird isn't it?  Who are these people you are  trying to convince? The people on here who are obviously vaccinated, abiding by whatever mandates are being dished out by their local governments?  People on here who've maybe had covid?  Don't you find it funny or ironic that everyone on here who happens to post an anti-mask meme is likley wearing a mask when it's required? You live in CA, you know the draconian nature of your elected government and you seem to be a rule follower.  

My business partner is in CA as we speak, attending a weekend medical conference.  Appears that everyone is following the rules, especially patients.   Or maybe you are just upset at the terrible ending to last night's baseball game.  The Giants were robbed, at least for that call.  I dont' take pride winning like that but do feel the game still would have ended favorably for the dodgers.  Just would have taken an extra pitch two.  But you never know.  

Maybe you should take a roadtrip to the part(s) of the country that aren't living up to your standards and let them know.


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> I don't know you, but I hope you can find happiness in life.  Im still hoping that someone like you can co-exist with someone like me. I am a little saddened that it appears we as a country are ripping apart at the seams.
> 
> But I do try to sep online life/ real life. Can't say I've run into anyone like you in person, so that gives me hope


dont' chase in the rabbit hole.  It's likely the wifi connection at the library has waned and the capacity to post anything is severely diminished or stopped.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Bruddah IZ said:


> He talks tough but heʻs afraid.


Yep…typically those that are the most aggressive are the weakest.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Three different biologists dropped by to explain the science.  That doesn’t work.
> 
> Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here.
> 
> After all, we still have almost 2000 people dying each day because of this.  Maybe it’s worth paying a bit of attention to the advice we have been given?


IIRC one of those biologist's justifications for the proposed restrictions was his personal fears over unvaxxed kids (and once death was disproven, from long hospitalizations or long COVID because we just don't know what we don't know).  Turns out those fears were completely overblown and not put into proper context.

You also keep throwing around the 700,000 number without telling us what part of the number was inevitable given the US culture and density, irrespective of what we did.  It's why most of us think Australia was your preferred solution....because even though you refused to say it, we all knew you secretly clung to the illusion of zero covid.

The fact that YOU (you have complained about being targeted with such "slurs" as authoritarian or afraid) are defending such behavior is just the cherry on the ice cream on all of this.  In the end, the history of this on the forums will not be you and the biologists (who being hammers, can be forgiven that everything they see is a nail), but you and the three trolls.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> IIRC one of those biologist's justifications for the proposed restrictions was his personal fears over unvaxxed kids (and once death was disproven, from long hospitalizations or long COVID because we just don't know what we don't know).  Turns out those fears were completely overblown and not put into proper context.
> 
> You also keep throwing around the 700,000 number without telling us what part of the number was inevitable given the US culture and density, irrespective of what we did.  It's why most of us think Australia was your preferred solution....because even though you refused to say it, we all knew you secretly clung to the illusion of zero covid.
> 
> The fact that YOU (you have complained about being targeted with such "slurs" as authoritarian or afraid) are defending such behavior is just the cherry on the ice cream on all of this.  In the end, the history of this on the forums will not be you and the biologists (who being hammers, can be forgiven that everything they see is a nail), but you and the three trolls.



I'm hearing the we've tried everything a lot lately. Mr. Weekend at Bernies in DC has mentioned it a couple of times. 

to me it. sounds like a justification to do almost anything . There is no doubt many liberals secretly agree with what is going on in parts of Australia, some will express it out in the open 

Bottom line there is a portion of society that will never ever ever take the vaccine for whatever reason.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I don't enjoy any of this.  The only people who derive any glee here are those who think these memes about lions and sheep are hilarious.  Feel free to carry on posting bs lion/sheep memes and pretending they're funny and helpful, rather than contributing to people making their children orphans. Laugh it up all you want after you're done getting upset hearing the truth about how many people a day are dying in FL.


I'm assuming you are talking about some other person named what-happened who's posting these memes you speak of.  Or maybe you are referencing the royal you.  Maybe?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Maybe a rude SOB calling you names will work.  He’s annoying as hell, but still a step above the stupid anti-mask memes that people keep posting here.


Are you that desperate for someone to agree with you? I know its hard to find someone to support your position, but I know you have higher standards than that.  Is this "the end justifies the means" sort of mentality?

Has there been a plague of anti-vax and mask memes on this thread?  We're on page 219 and other than a few possibly from one anti-jab poster, I don't recall any others (correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary. That doesn’t work.


This kind of says a lot about your mindset. As in thinking that somehow that number would have been a lot less somehow. 

We were never going to be your preferred Australia or NZ solution. 

We were never going to shut down biz and schools for over a year. 

And yet you keep pretending those deaths would somehow be avoidable.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> IIRC one of those biologist's justifications for the proposed restrictions was his personal fears over unvaxxed kids (and once death was disproven, from long hospitalizations or long COVID because we just don't know what we don't know).  Turns out those fears were completely overblown and not put into proper context.
> 
> You also keep throwing around the 700,000 number without telling us what part of the number was inevitable given the US culture and density, irrespective of what we did.  It's why most of us think Australia was your preferred solution....because even though you refused to say it, we all knew you secretly clung to the illusion of zero covid.
> 
> The fact that YOU (you have complained about being targeted with such "slurs" as authoritarian or afraid) are defending such behavior is just the cherry on the ice cream on all of this.  In the end, the history of this on the forums will not be you and the biologists (who being hammers, can be forgiven that everything they see is a nail), but you and the three trolls.


I‘m out, for now.  Enjoy the trolls.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> No real conflict.  Mandates are necessary and Newsom is undermining them for political gain.  ( Same as undermining the indoor dining closures by never mentioning the big casinos who help fund Dem candidates. )
> 
> He is betting, probably correctly, that he doesn’t lose many votes by failing to protect the health of inmates.


...yet you to take politicians and government agencies at face value and tout it...funny how that works.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I‘m out, for now.  Enjoy the trolls.


Wow...a banner day.....maybe we are near the end of it?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Hey bruddah iznoramus.  I checked your website again like you asked.  It looks like that death rate you claimed was 17 a day is now listed at 130 a day.  Man, did you get duped again.  It must be incredibly embarrassing for you to be this stupid.View attachment 11866


Dizzy doesn’t care about looking ignorant, it’s a badge of honor amongst those he admires.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> yes, calling people dumbfucks will work . Its a brilliant idea
> 
> Hey Dumbfuck take the vaccine you stupid mother fucking idiot
> 
> take the vaccine and move on with your life, try to stay healthy. if you can't do that , then that's on you


And possibly those you came in contact with that were unwillingly exposed to gleeful ignorance.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> And possibly those you came in contact with that were unwillingly exposed to gleeful ignorance.


are you doing your part to protect the unvaccinated from you spreading the virus to them ?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Hey bruddah iznoramus.  I checked your website again like you asked.  It looks like that death rate you claimed was 17 a day is now listed at 130 a day.  Man, did you get duped again.  It must be incredibly embarrassing for you to be this stupid.View attachment 11866


[Thought Of The Day]

...image living the life of a bitterly angry douche bag.


----------



## met61

Have a great SoCal weekend!  (If you know how.)


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Kicker4Life said:


> Yep…typically those that are the most aggressive are the weakest.


The more eloquent Socialist on the thread arenʻt getting the job done so they brought in the chihuahua.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> [Thought Of The Day]
> 
> ...image living the life of a bitterly angry douche bag.


His fellow comrades are lettinʻ him down.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Dizzy doesn’t care about looking ignorant, it’s a badge of honor amongst those he admires.


Hanapaa!!


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> *Bottom line there is a portion of society that will never ever ever take the vaccine for whatever reason*.


That's me.  Also, I respect those who take the jabs and the boosters for whatever their reasons.  I'm sorry if I said some meme jokes here and there.  I also took on some tough and heart wrenching topics on here over the years.  I won;t hash out da past because da past is da past.  I look to greener pasture out in the new frontiers of life.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Dizzy doesn’t care about looking ignorant, it’s a badge of honor amongst those he admires.


IZ is da man and my hero


----------



## MicPaPa

WOW! Decided to catch up on this thread and feel like with the last two pages I have stumbled upon a crime scene - a group of you have completely murdered @dad4

I have always respected him for his intelligence, just not his wisdom. Incredibly, you guys have driven him to performing circle-jerks and reach-a-rounds with the forums village idiots. And then, your collective onslaught left him broken and speechless, as he scurried to the door calling it a day with his dick in his hand and his thumb in his mouth.

There is nothing to add to the brilliance of what you all said except - Bravo, Well Done!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That's one of the cool parts about youth soccer for me, hanging with parents from a variety of backgrounds, ethnicities, beliefs etc.


Definitely. I brought this up before but I'll repeat it. Unfortunately, my daughter's first soccer team was much more socio-economically diverse than it has been in the last few years of our experience. It's still racially diverse but we don't represent our area's neighborhoods as well as it did early on. That's unfortunate.


----------



## lafalafa

dad4 said:


> I spent a while trying to politely explain that 700,000 people dead from covid was both bad and unnecessary.  That doesn’t work.


Opioid epidemic and crisis rages on & kills more 700k in 2020 yet that's barely discussed. 

Tragedy yes the # of covid fatalities but likely peaked in the USA why opioids will do more damage this year.

How about some ideas or attention to other heath issues like  cancer, heart disease, diabetes that are causing more people problems.   

COVID-19 is just one of many things like the flu that risks could be minimized with medicines.  Vaccines are one approach or a combination of them or with antivirals.








						Merck Asks FDA to Authorize Promising Covid-19 Pill
					

The filing comes shortly after data from a late-stage study showed that the antiviral drug, molnupiravir, cut the risk of hospitalization or death by about 50% in high-risk people with mild to moderate Covid-19.




					www.wsj.com
				




Need to get on with life, manage covid but lets not go overboard with it and concentrate on the other things that are longer term problems like mentioned.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

[/QUOTE]
...wish it were as easy as accepting or declining...but the toxic influence of political money, big tech, and media make it a bit more calculated and exploitative by Pols.

...we're probably singing from the same general hymnal, just different tunes.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I don't mean to imply that accepting or declining was the solution, just that without it we guarantee division. There's no hope of anything else.

The topic of power in the hands of a few has been discussed. My desire to avoid this is why I don't support vaccine mandates even though I am vaccinated and advocate for the vaccine. I believe forcing individuals into actions they don't want to perform should be reserved for more extreme situations than where we are now with Covid. There is a price to pay in terms of trust and "buy-in" when forcing actions on individuals.


----------



## lafalafa

Desert Hound said:


> This kind of says a lot about your mindset. As in thinking that somehow that number would have been a lot less somehow.
> 
> We were never going to be your preferred Australia or NZ solution.
> 
> We were never going to shut down biz and schools for over a year.
> 
> And yet you keep pretending those deaths would somehow be avoidable.


140,000 deaths prevented from covid vaccines was the claim I read today but I think that's old numbers.









						Vaccines prevented up to 140,000 COVID-19 deaths in U.S.
					

A study estimated that COVID-19 vaccinations prevented nearly 140,000 deaths in the U.S. by May 2021.




					www.nih.gov
				




Even so to me heath care is personal choice just like diets or what we consume.

We have some of the worse diets and obesity problems the world has seen yet there very little govt mandates for junk food content,  amts of sugar, salt, sodium or for  healthy eating,  natural food,  regular exercise for adults, etc.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Definitely. I brought this up before but I'll repeat it. Unfortunately, my daughter's first soccer team was much more socio-economically diverse than it has been in the last few years of our experience. It's still racially diverse but we don't represent our area's neighborhoods as well as it did early on. That's unfortunate.


That's interesting.  We were the opposite.  A bunch of Francis Parker kids on my son's first team.  Now I would guess 1/3 of our kids are scholarshipped.  Ramona, El Cajon, Carlsbad, Chula Vista, Spring Valley, La Jolla, Escondido to name a few, our kids are from all over the County.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That's interesting.  We were the opposite.  A bunch of Francis Parker kids on my son's first team.  Now I would guess 1/3 of our kids are scholarshipped.  Ramona, El Cajon, Carlsbad, Chula Vista, Spring Valley, La Jolla, Escondido to name a few, our kids are from all over the County.


My impression is that in our area of Santa Clara County, there are many more Hispanic boys from the various neighborhoods playing high-level soccer than Hispanic girls from those same neighborhoods. I don't have actual numbers to back it up, but that's my impression.


----------



## MicPaPa

met61 said:


> Actually, I believe you are the one who has it upside down. Understandable, as you've probably been raised and lived in the bubble of a controlled environment amongst a specific control group. But, having spent most of my adult life in the military surrounded by individuals from every corner of the country, from every race, gender, nationality, economic status, religion, and political party. I can assure you, the psychological humanity and core division you speak of is minimally measurable, if it exists at all. You see, when you look up and down military ranks, you will see noticeable and vast differences...but, you will also find the two main principles they all have in common: 1) The US Flag on their shoulder; 2) The belief the soldier on their right and left will fight and die for them.
> 
> A great country needs common principles to bond and rally around. Politicians know the quickest road to power is division within the electorate, using identity politics and pitting individuals differences against each other.
> 
> I have never seen my biracial children at their classmates throats because of their white side or brown side...hell, no one in their peer groups even notices it or brings it up. Rather, I have clearly seen politicians and their acolytes in education with grotesque political motives jamming it down their throats.
> 
> All politicians use division and fear to generate power, but it is leftist who are leading the way in destroying our national unifying principles and identities.
> 
> It only takes a superficial amount of Wisdom and real personal experience to understand this.


Amen Brother!

The only thing I'd add is most foreigners from my tours around the world love and respect America way more than the lefties and most Dems in this country. Sad but true.


----------



## Desert Hound

lafalafa said:


> 140,000 deaths prevented from covid vaccines was the claim I read today but I think that's old numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccines prevented up to 140,000 COVID-19 deaths in U.S.
> 
> 
> A study estimated that COVID-19 vaccinations prevented nearly 140,000 deaths in the U.S. by May 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even so to me heath care is personal choice just like diets or what we consume.
> 
> We have some of the worse diets and obesity problems the world has seen yet there very little govt mandates for junk food content,  amts of sugar, salt, sodium or for  healthy eating,  natural food,  regular exercise for adults, etc.


We do have some bad diet habits as a nation.

That said I don't want gov mandating diets etc. 

The more we have gov intrude, the more they will


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> This is just weird isn't it?  Who are these people you are  trying to convince? The people on here who are obviously vaccinated, abiding by whatever mandates are being dished out by their local governments?  People on here who've maybe had covid?  Don't you find it funny or ironic that everyone on here who happens to post an anti-mask meme is likley wearing a mask when it's required? You live in CA, you know the draconian nature of your elected government and you seem to be a rule follower.
> 
> My business partner is in CA as we speak, attending a weekend medical conference.  Appears that everyone is following the rules, especially patients.   Or maybe you are just upset at the terrible ending to last night's baseball game.  The Giants were robbed, at least for that call.  I dont' take pride winning like that but do feel the game still would have ended favorably for the dodgers.  Just would have taken an extra pitch two.  But you never know.
> 
> Maybe you should take a roadtrip to the part(s) of the country that aren't living up to your standards and let them know.


Dad should seriously consider moving to Gallup  New Mexico.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I‘m out, for now.  Enjoy the trolls.


Trolls a plenty, new trolls, same trolls. Trolls think being louder and more persistent makes them right. Funny how that works.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trolls a plenty, new trolls, same trolls. Trolls think being louder and more persistent makes them right. Funny how that works.


You know the debate is lost when the losers of the debate accuse the winners for being trolls.  You and dad and the trolls on your side lost.  Now go away and be a good sport


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trolls a plenty, new trolls, same trolls. Trolls think being louder and more persistent makes them right. Funny how that works.


The pot announcing the kettle…..funny how that works!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker4Life said:


> The pot announcing the kettle…..funny how that works!


The consistent lack of self-awareness is hilarious.


----------



## watfly

So "Team Virus" is:

Pro-Vaccine
Pro-Natural Immunity
Mask Compliant
Pro-Children
Pro-Small Business

And somehow because we question the mandates we're the bad guys,  We deserve to be called "dumbfucks", we deserve to be shamed into compliance.    Don't think, just silently comply.  Seems like a troubling path to me.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> The consistent lack of self-awareness is hilarious.


You don't need self awareness when you follow a narrative that has been pre-determined for you.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> So "Team Virus" is:
> 
> Pro-Vaccine
> Pro-Natural Immunity
> Mask Compliant
> Pro-Children
> Pro-Small Business
> 
> And somehow because we question the mandates we're the bad guys,  We deserve to be called "dumbfucks", we deserve to be shamed into compliance.    Don't think, just silently comply.  Seems like a troubling path to me.


Of course vaccine mandates are a troubling path , we are opening up for the government to mandate anything they want under the broad term of “saving lives “

climate is next


----------



## whatithink

lafalafa said:


> Opioid epidemic and crisis rages on & kills more 700k in 2020 yet that's barely discussed.
> 
> Tragedy yes the # of covid fatalities but likely peaked in the USA why opioids will do more damage this year.
> 
> How about some ideas or attention to other heath issues like  cancer, heart disease, diabetes that are causing more people problems.
> 
> COVID-19 is just one of many things like the flu that risks could be minimized with medicines.  Vaccines are one approach or a combination of them or with antivirals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merck Asks FDA to Authorize Promising Covid-19 Pill
> 
> 
> The filing comes shortly after data from a late-stage study showed that the antiviral drug, molnupiravir, cut the risk of hospitalization or death by about 50% in high-risk people with mild to moderate Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Need to get on with life, manage covid but lets not go overboard with it and concentrate on the other things that are longer term problems like mentioned.


Whataboutery is a piss poor argument.

You're 100% correct that more should be done to resolve each if the items listed, but there is far more money to be made out of treating and not curing. Vaccines, plus boosters, plus annual jabs etc. follows the same path.

Ultimately there is a failure of leadership from the pols, but we get the leaders we deserve, so that's on us as we vote them in again, and again, and again. Einstein defined it well.


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> Of course vaccine mandates are a troubling path , we are opening up for the government to mandate anything they want under the broad term of “saving lives “
> 
> climate is next


Governments can already do that. Climate should be next, but there's too much money to be made destroying our only livable habitat so that's unlikely to happen. The planet will be fine either way.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> We do have some bad diet habits as a nation.
> 
> That said I don't want gov mandating diets etc.
> 
> The more we have gov intrude, the more they will


Governments mandate everything relative to what you eat today. What's the alternative, that we should trust agribusiness and grocery chains, you can't possibly be serious?

As you are one you is overly concerned with vaccines and the lack of long term impacts, how about gmo foods, every thought about that?

Keep in mind, the long term effects of a vaccine (1 or 2 jabs) is short in nature, due to the human body (wonderful that it is, as brother IZ will verify) processing it quickly.

Put that against food that you consume every day, constantly putting more of it into your already polluted body.

Bioethical reflection on the use of GMOs - MAHB (stanford.edu)


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> Governments can already do that. Climate should be next, but there's too much money to be made destroying our only livable habitat so that's unlikely to happen. The planet will be fine either way.


For what values of "fine"?


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> how about gmo foods, every thought about that?


Yep I have thought about GMOs a lot. 

We have been genetically modifying plants, since the dawn of farming. 

I like the fact that with GMO we use less pesticides, use less water, less land, less loss of product, produce items such as golden rice which helps the poor in many countries increase the nutrition the receive on a daily basis, etc. 

The produce is healthy. 

Packages/processed foods however can be a different story due to salt content, and other additives used to make manufacturing easier. 

But I will take GMO all day every day.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> For what values of "fine"?


as defined by the planet, not by us


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Yep I have thought about GMOs a lot.
> 
> We have been genetically modifying plants, since the dawn of farming.
> 
> I like the fact that with GMO we use less pesticides, use less water, less land, less loss of product, produce items such as golden rice which helps the poor in many countries increase the nutrition the receive on a daily basis, etc.
> 
> The produce is healthy.
> 
> Packages/processed foods however can be a different story due to salt content, and other additives used to make manufacturing easier.
> 
> But I will take GMO all day every day.


but we don't know the long term effects ... remember that argument?


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> as defined by the planet, not by us


Did you intend that to have some meaning?


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> Did you intend that to have some meaning?


As meaningful as your question.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> but we don't know the long term effects ... remember that argument?


GMOs first came to market in 1982. That is almost 40 yrs ago.

So it has a long track record of safety. 

Also nobody mandates one to eat a gmo product. So that is vastly different vs mandating a vaxx that hasn't even been around a yr.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> GMOs first came to market in 1982. That is almost 40 yrs ago.
> 
> So it has a long track record of safety.
> 
> Also nobody mandates one to eat a gmo product. So that is vastly different vs mandating a vaxx that hasn't even been around a yr.


The issue with GMOs in food has been disclosure.  Manufacturers were reluctant to admit there were GMO components in food until forced by regulation, and there are still some exemptions.  People who are concerned about GMOs in their food can buy "non-GMO" foods, which is kind of the opposite tack.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The issue with GMOs in food has been disclosure.  Manufacturers were reluctant to admit there were GMO components in food until forced by regulation, and there are still some exemptions.  People who are concerned about GMOs in their food can buy "non-GMO" foods, which is kind of the opposite tack.


I don't have issues with labeling. That is fine and good.

The reality however is we have been genetically modifying produce since the beginning of farming. We can simply speed up the process now since we know the various triggers so to speak to get desired traits.

Unfortunately many people think GMOs mean you are adding something unnatural to the product.

On a simple example not related to food...we have genetically modified dogs to get certain traits...ie dogs that hunt, trackers etc. It works well. Where it doesn't is inbreeding...think hips on German Shepherds. But that is in the same realm as the Hapsburg chin. 

GMOs have simply speed up what farmers have been doing for thousands of yrs. 

We now use less land, water, pesticides, etc. That is a desirable outcome.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> As meaningful as your question.


... it's his go to response, he's the self-appointed resident question guy...leave him be.


----------



## met61

...hmm, strange...must be a one off.









						UK to Fauci — We have a big problem…
					

UK Vaccination rates approach 90 percent but it’s not helping…         Cases are exploding despite the very high Vaccination rate           …




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## met61

... weird, gotta be another one off...or they want to harm their neighbors.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> Governments can already do that. Climate should be next, but there's too much money to be made destroying our only livable habitat so that's unlikely to happen. The planet will be fine either way.


...but, oh nevermind.
________________________________

"UN Climate Change Conference Using Diesel Generators To Charge Teslas



The COP Climate Change Conference, hosted by the UK in partnership with Italy, is taking place in Glasgow from October 31 to November 12. One blogger from Brighton wrote this week that attendees from the conference will be staying at Gleneagles Hotel, where there are 20 Teslas at the hotel to shuttle people back and forth to the convention, which is about 75km.



Then, the kicker. Since the hotel only has one Tesla charging station, several diesel generators have been contracted to help recharge the Teslas overnight."


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I don't have issues with labeling. That is fine and good.
> 
> The reality however is we have been genetically modifying produce since the beginning of farming. We can simply speed up the process now since we know the various triggers so to speak to get desired traits.
> 
> Unfortunately many people think GMOs mean you are adding something unnatural to the product.
> 
> On a simple example not related to food...we have genetically modified dogs to get certain traits...ie dogs that hunt, trackers etc. It works well. Where it doesn't is inbreeding...think hips on German Shepherds. But that is in the same realm as the Hapsburg chin.
> 
> GMOs have simply speed up what farmers have been doing for thousands of yrs.
> 
> We now use less land, water, pesticides, etc. That is a desirable outcome.


If we want to tackle climate change, GMOs would have to be part of the solution and organics (which are less resistant to pest, take more land to grow and more water) are part of the problem (this is separate than the issue of local grown....it would just be local grown GMO products).

It's one of the issue with climate change....someone always objects to part of the radical solutions that are given: atomic power, GMOs, give up beef and less meat overall, give up the private planes and nonessential air travel, shoot the dogs, lose the hot showers.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If we want to tackle climate change, GMOs would have to be part of the solution and organics (which are less resistant to pest, take more land to grow and more water) are part of the problem (this is separate than the issue of local grown....it would just be local grown GMO products).
> 
> It's one of the issue with climate change....someone always objects to part of the radical solutions that are given: atomic power, GMOs, give up beef and less meat overall, give up the private planes and nonessential air travel, shoot the dogs, lose the hot showers.


I understand the benefits of atomic power, GMO food, less air travel and eating less meat.  Those are all serious proposals.

How did you conclude that killing dogs and banning hot showers are equally part of the solution?   That sounds like more bull crap than actual numbers.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> GMOs first came to market in 1982. That is almost 40 yrs ago.
> 
> So it has a long track record of safety.
> 
> Also nobody mandates one to eat a gmo product. So that is vastly different vs mandating a vaxx that hasn't even been around a yr.


Sure, but its not just the GMOs from 40 years ago, it many variations since which have not been on the market for 40 years or 20 or 10. Its a bit like mRNA that has been studied for 2+ decades, which was first used in vaccines 12+ years ago. So it not like mRNA just appeared and was first used in vaccines a year ago. But you know that.


----------



## whatithink

met61 said:


> ...but, oh nevermind.
> ________________________________
> 
> "UN Climate Change Conference Using Diesel Generators To Charge Teslas
> 
> 
> 
> The COP Climate Change Conference, hosted by the UK in partnership with Italy, is taking place in Glasgow from October 31 to November 12. One blogger from Brighton wrote this week that attendees from the conference will be staying at Gleneagles Hotel, where there are 20 Teslas at the hotel to shuttle people back and forth to the convention, which is about 75km.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, the kicker. Since the hotel only has one Tesla charging station, several diesel generators have been contracted to help recharge the Teslas overnight."


Yeah, a lot of hot air will come out of that and little to no change.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I understand the benefits of atomic power, GMO food, less air travel and eating less meat.  Those are all serious proposals.
> 
> How did you conclude that killing dogs and banning hot showers are equally part of the solution?   That sounds like more bull crap than actual numbers.


Dogs consume 10% of our meat production.  The counter argument is well they only consume our scraps and make sure we otherwise don’t waste food. The counter to the counter is: dog food is no longer made largely from scraps but even a mainline blend like caesars has gone prime cut, the dog population has increased as people have moved away from child rearing which just substitutes a different mouth for another, and that’s before we get to even the enormous amounts of plastic junk they consume that powers stores like petco.  It wouldn’t be a problem if people treated them like semi feral animals but the trend has been to increasingly treat them like children. I posted an article on the subject when the climate change discussion last reared it’s head. 

ill concede I’m not being totally accurate on showers.  It’s the smaller part of the problem which is gas heating in the northern part of the world. The problem with that is there’s not much we can do about it without having people freeze to death and we have done a lot already to switch to cleaner gases. But there is one small thing we could do even though it’s a fraction of the problem: the water heaters used in certain countries like the us uk and Canada. We have these huge water heaters that are constantly kept warm by burning gas. Even though the savings is fractional, it would be very real if we at a minimum switch to single use, heat before you use small tanks like in Italy and Spain. Having spent a year in Spain in my youth using such water heaters…I can tell you I missed the long American shower. But as they say small things add up and the problem is of such magnitude that if we wanted to keep the heating for the north, getting rid of long showers is one way to save


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Dogs consume 10% of our meat production.  The counter argument is well they only consume our scraps and make sure we otherwise don’t waste food. The counter to the counter is: dog food is no longer made largely from scraps but even a mainline blend like caesars has gone prime cut, the dog population has increased as people have moved away from child rearing which just substitutes a different mouth for another, and that’s before we get to even the enormous amounts of plastic junk they consume that powers stores like petco.  It wouldn’t be a problem if people treated them like semi feral animals but the trend has been to increasingly treat them like children. I posted an article on the subject when the climate change discussion last reared it’s head.
> 
> ill concede I’m not being totally accurate on showers.  It’s the smaller part of the problem which is gas heating in the northern part of the world. The problem with that is there’s not much we can do about it without having people freeze to death and we have done a lot already to switch to cleaner gases. But there is one small thing we could do even though it’s a fraction of the problem: the water heaters used in certain countries like the us uk and Canada. We have these huge water heaters that are constantly kept warm by burning gas. Even though the savings is fractional, it would be very real if we at a minimum switch to single use, heat before you use small tanks like in Italy and Spain. Having spent a year in Spain in my youth using such water heaters…I can tell you I missed the long American shower. But as they say small things add up and the problem is of such magnitude that if we wanted to keep the heating for the north, getting rid of long showers is one way to save


A paper on the wall doesn’t always signify intelligence. Persistence maybe, but not always intelligence.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> A paper on the wall doesn’t always signify intelligence. Persistence maybe, but not always intelligence.


Hey we agree on something!

I’ll take you one better. A high iq score isn’t a 1 to 1 correlation with intelligence either!

for S&G, care to guess mine???


----------



## crush

Hey Grace T, I just got done watching a compelling Docu about all the plane crashes the last 30 days.  These are not commercial planes with jabbed pilots, these are jabbed one man Cessna's that become bombs in the sky when the pilot passes out or has blood clot cause heart attack in the sky.  I 100% want to say, "RIP" to all those WHO have lost their lives because of the vaccine. They ((The Documentary)) said It was a record month for small plane crashes and all were jabbed.  Commercial planes have three pilots in case one has a heart attack in the sky so they can cover him/her if ER occurs.  That's why the strike from the pilots, so my pilot pal says.  My pal knows everything in the skies Grace T.  He fly's C-17 in Air Force part time and Commercial for Alaska full time.  He got the jab and has had no issues.  Super healthy pilot and a Top Gun, MOO   He does say it seems more and more pilots are getting sick and he has heard some things that just happen on the Tar Mac.  I'm not at liberty to share because it's not 100% confirmed what the real issue is.  Also, I hear that people are crashing their cars after passing out.  Yes, they just got jabbed but they can't say for sure what the true cause of the pass out is but the ER department say's the crashes are through the roof.  More information will be coming out that will blow us all away.  Indictments are coming and Camp Delta just got done building new court house at the Bay.  Happy TGIFS!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Dogs consume 10% of our meat production.  The counter argument is well they only consume our scraps and make sure we otherwise don’t waste food. The counter to the counter is: dog food is no longer made largely from scraps but even a mainline blend like caesars has gone prime cut, the dog population has increased as people have moved away from child rearing which just substitutes a different mouth for another, and that’s before we get to even the enormous amounts of plastic junk they consume that powers stores like petco.  It wouldn’t be a problem if people treated them like semi feral animals but the trend has been to increasingly treat them like children. I posted an article on the subject when the climate change discussion last reared it’s head.
> 
> ill concede I’m not being totally accurate on showers.  It’s the smaller part of the problem which is gas heating in the northern part of the world. The problem with that is there’s not much we can do about it without having people freeze to death and we have done a lot already to switch to cleaner gases. But there is one small thing we could do even though it’s a fraction of the problem: the water heaters used in certain countries like the us uk and Canada. We have these huge water heaters that are constantly kept warm by burning gas. Even though the savings is fractional, it would be very real if we at a minimum switch to single use, heat before you use small tanks like in Italy and Spain. Having spent a year in Spain in my youth using such water heaters…I can tell you I missed the long American shower. But as they say small things add up and the problem is of such magnitude that if we wanted to keep the heating for the north, getting rid of long showers is one way to save


Ps. The other way both dogs and humans contribute to global warming is through flatulence (yes every time you let one rip you are slowly killing the planet). They don’t in any way near the scale of cows but we are talking about (unless you are going to sentence India and Africa to perpetual poverty and periodic starvation) needing to reach pre industrial levels of output in the west. Before we start shooting the humans….or collapsing societies before putting radical limitations on having children (didn’t work so good in the prc)…shooting the dogs seems like a more humane option (the crying child notwithstanding).


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> Hey we agree on something!
> 
> I’ll take you one better. A high iq score isn’t a 1 to 1 correlation with intelligence either!
> 
> for S&G, care to guess mine???


115-130


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> 115-130


That’s not even my kids


----------



## met61

... hope.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ... hope.


I can dig it.  But there are consequences to all choices.  Make your choice but don’t complain about the consequences.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> I can dig it.  But there are consequences to all choices.  Make your choice but don’t complain about the consequences.


"consequences to all choices"

Hilarious! ...have you been in a coma the past couple years?


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> "consequences to all choices"
> 
> Hilarious! ...have you been in a coma the past couple years?


You are proving my point.  There are indeed consequences to waking up every morning for the past couple of years with toxicity in your heart brother.  If you have toxicity in your heart, let it go brother.

I choose to love life and count my blessings.  I understand there are consequences and repercussions to my actions and I fully accept them.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> You are proving my point.  There are indeed consequences to waking up every morning for the past couple of years with toxicity in your heart brother.  If you have toxicity in your heart, let it go brother.
> 
> I choose to love life and count my blessings.  I understand there are consequences and repercussions to my actions and I fully accept them.


...again, hilarious! You win.


----------



## Grace T.

they don't believe their own theater....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449578155098968064


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> they don't believe their own theater....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449578155098968064


You don't say, Captain Obvious.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> they don't believe their own theater....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449578155098968064


25th amendment, Harris or then Pelosi would fill in fine.


----------



## met61

...wait, we were told this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated!

...meh, just a Harvard study.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> 25th amendment, Harris or then Pelosi would fill in fine.


Nevermind.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> 25th amendment, Harris or then Pelosi would fill in fine.


Wilson, Reagan, and Trump all stayed in office effectively disabled, and Eisenhower spent six weeks in a hospital after a heart attack (and then successfully ran for re-election!).  I wouldn't be surprised at Joe's age if there might be some disabling event before his term is up.

It's a little disconcerting to finish your physical with the doctor handing you an information sheet on formalizing final instructions.


----------



## met61

... wait, what? gotta be another one off...whew!









						Whistleblower: FDA and CDC Ignore Damning Report that over 90% of a Hospital’s Admissions were Vaccinated for Covid-19 and No One Was Reporting This to VAERS
					

Physician Assistant, Deborah Conrad, bravely reports these harms and is barred from filing VAERS reports




					aaronsiri.substack.com


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ... wait, what? gotta be another one off...whew!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whistleblower: FDA and CDC Ignore Damning Report that over 90% of a Hospital’s Admissions were Vaccinated for Covid-19 and No One Was Reporting This to VAERS
> 
> 
> Physician Assistant, Deborah Conrad, bravely reports these harms and is barred from filing VAERS reports
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aaronsiri.substack.com


It's even worse than that.   If you look at hospital admissions in 2019, the vast majority were people who would later receive the covid vaccine.  

There is only one reasonable explanation:  The jab apparently goes back in time and makes you sick. It's a sociopathic time machine in a needle.  You're wise to stay well away, my friend.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> It's even worse than that.   If you look at hospital admissions in 2019, the vast majority were people who would later receive the covid vaccine.
> 
> There is only one reasonable explanation:  The jab apparently goes back in time and makes you sick. It's a sociopathic time machine in a needle.  You're wise to stay well away, my friend.


Darwin’s theory . . .


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Darwin’s theory . . .


...Sex Offender Registration.


----------



## crush

RIP to Gen. Powell.  He died from complications from Covid 19


----------



## crush




----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> I get that you do not want to think about the deaths of others, because that would require you confront why they are happening, which is that all that lion/sheep anti-mask shit that you think is so funny doesn't look nearly so hilarious when it's in the FB feeds of one dead schmuck after the next.  Since I doubt you click on the links I provide for all those dead Covid deniers, let me attach an example from one dead schmuck's FB feed so you can get a real good look.  So funny, right? How many similar hilarious anti-mask/vax memes and photos have you posted here and on social media?
> 
> BTW way, I'm not focused on death.  I'm just laughing right along side you at these hilarious memes.  Ha, ha, they're just so funny, am I right? Why don't you post more of them so for us here so we can keep whooping it up?
> 
> View attachment 11869


...hey dummy, now do the fully vaxxed... maybe you can call it "The Powell Prize"
________________________________

"Fully vaxxed Colin Powell dies of complications from COVID-19"



			https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics/colin-powell-dies/index.html


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> View attachment 11896
> 
> RIP to Gen. Powell.  He died from complications from Covid 19


Let’s not forget the fact that he had cancer as well.


----------



## Kicker4Life

met61 said:


> ...hey dummy, now do the fully vaxxed... maybe you can call it "The Powell Prize"
> ________________________________
> 
> "Fully vaxxed Colin Powell dies of complications from COVID-19"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics/colin-powell-dies/index.html


Let’s also not forget Herman Cain had stage four cancer. But that doesn’t fit certain peoples negative at all.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...hey dummy, now do the fully vaxxed... maybe you can call it "The Powell Prize"
> ________________________________
> 
> "Fully vaxxed Colin Powell dies of complications from COVID-19"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics/colin-powell-dies/index.html


I'm sure they will trace it back to a unjabbed person Gen. Powell hung out with a few weeks ago and then blame it on the t supporters.


----------



## met61

Kicker4Life said:


> Let’s not forget the fact that he had cancer as well.


...yes, that fact only applies when discussing the vaccinated...funny how that works


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> Let’s not forget the fact that he had cancer as well.


Oh, I didn't know that.  Herman was passed the stages of cancer and was doing whatever the hell he wanted to do before he died.  His personal make-a-wish was going to t rally.  It was his choice and he went out the way he wanted, free!!!!


----------



## met61

... go back and compare how MSM covered Herman Cain versus how they will be covering Powell.

...the beauty is, liberal narratives always crumble under the weight of facts, double standards, and hypocrisy... but, as evidenced on this forum, there will continue to be plenty of dummies who will religiously buy their BS.

...case in point in 3, 2, 1...


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ... go back and compare how MSM covered Herman Cain versus how they will be covering Powell.
> 
> ...the beauty is, liberal narratives always crumble under the weight of facts, double standards, and hypocrisy... but, as evidenced on this forum, there will continue to be plenty of dummies who will religiously buy their BS.
> 
> ...case in point in 3, 2, 1...


I can I do one Satire Meme of McCain meeting up with Powell?  I want to be sensitive to Golden Gate, Espola, Husker, Dad and EOTL but I think I should?  Thoughts Met?


----------



## crush

*Colin Powell dies of COVID-19 complications despite vaccine: Medical experts weigh in*
*Powell's death should serve as a 'wake up call' for eligible adults to receive COVID-19 vaccine booster shots, an expert said*


----------



## N00B

Spend some time around an elder care facility some time.  

It’s not political (other than in NY facilities during the first wave or death counts that don’t meaningfully impact life expectancy)… old people die. Often it is from primary causes (multiple) or just that little thing that was too much given all the other problems (flu, chest cold turned pneumonia, a fall, medication mismanagement/forgetfulness, Covid, diet, etc.)

This is NOT a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It is a pandemic of negative outcomes for the infirm and unvaccinated with co-morbidities (that includes those that need boosters due to lack of sufficient immunity from the primary vaccination).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Spend some time around an elder care facility some time.
> 
> It’s not political (other than in NY facilities during the first wave or death counts that don’t meaningfully impact life expectancy)… old people die. Often it is from primary causes (multiple) or just that little thing that was too much given all the other problems (flu, chest cold turned pneumonia, a fall, medication mismanagement/forgetfulness, Covid, diet, etc.)
> 
> This is NOT a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It is a pandemic of negative outcomes for the infirm and unvaccinated with co-morbidities (that includes those that need boosters due to lack of sufficient immunity from the primary vaccination).


So people are being caused to die sooner due to Covid tipping the scale away from their favor? But not a pandemic . . . excuses, excuses, excuses.
If anything has come from the last 5 years it’s that some people have been convinced to feel free to find excuses for the craziest behaviors.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker4Life said:


> Let’s also not forget Herman Cain had stage four cancer. But that doesn’t fit certain peoples negative at all.


“Had” being the operative word. “Had” previously but beat it a couple years before he attended an unmasked trump super-spreader rally.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Had” being the operative word. “Had” previously but beat it a couple years before he attended an unmasked trump super-spreader rally.


Stage 4….. yes he ultimately died of Covid, but he made a personal, conscious choice.

How about all those super spreader college football game events?


----------



## crush

I know all of us truly want to know what happens when you die.  No one really has a clue until they actually die.  The meme world made this one and i got a good chuckle with my coffee yesterday.


----------



## watfly

Kicker4Life said:


> How about all those super spreader college football game events?


It's interesting that a few weeks after school, nfl games, college football, concerts etc started that cases have plummeted.  Not saying this is the reason, just more proof that the virus has a mind of its own.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> It's interesting that a few weeks after school, nfl games, college football, concerts etc started that cases have plummeted.  Not saying this is the reason, just *more proof that the virus has a mind of its own.*


The "virus" was man made because of the election fraud bro and IT only follows the minds of evil men & woman WHO use kids as pawns and use dumb dumbs and those WHO like being non confrontational.  Yes, even men like you wat fly that try and make nice with everyone and stay out of the debate.  Are you still agnostic?  Just wait, you will be see God bro and you won;t have to be in the middle anymore.  God loves you Wat Fly, don;t forget that   I think anyone with a brain today knows the truth by now.  If your little brain is for one side only, well then you only will get that side of the fraud.  Blind bats can;t do nothing.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It's interesting that a few weeks after school, nfl games, college football, concerts etc started that cases have plummeted.  Not saying this is the reason, just more proof that the virus has a mind of its own.


It's clear that being outside reduces risk significantly. I'm also guessing that the number of cases is pretty significantly underreported - especially in the young (and the vaccinated) where symptoms are commonly minimal.

I was in NYC around Times Square last week - no masks inside most places if you are vaccinated (self-reported, no card/app required) for Starbucks, stores, etc. Few people on the streets wore masks, more wore a mask when they went inside but many did not. They had plastic shields up in Starbucks around the cashier. The hotel didn't require a mask either. On the Delta flight, they regularly announced that people should put their masks on between bites and sips. We still have a mask requirement inside here in SC county but you can take it off when you get to your table if dining in person. We are way past the peak of this wave. It will be interesting where we go from here as the cases continue to trend down.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...hey dummy, now do the fully vaxxed... maybe you can call it "The Powell Prize"
> ________________________________
> 
> "Fully vaxxed Colin Powell dies of complications from COVID-19"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics/colin-powell-dies/index.html


Are you saying that people shouldn't get vaccinated because it didn't save an 84 year old man with blood cancer?

As for Herman Cain, the award is named after him not because he died of Covid but because, unlike General Powell, he was a Covid denying shit poster who thought it would be fun to intentionally spread the virus all across America.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> Spend some time around an elder care facility some time.
> 
> It’s not political (other than in NY facilities during the first wave or death counts that don’t meaningfully impact life expectancy)… old people die. Often it is from primary causes (multiple) or just that little thing that was too much given all the other problems (flu, chest cold turned pneumonia, a fall, medication mismanagement/forgetfulness, Covid, diet, etc.)
> 
> This is NOT a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It is a pandemic of negative outcomes for the infirm and unvaccinated with co-morbidities (that includes those that need boosters due to lack of sufficient immunity from the primary vaccination).











						First Covid-19 outbreak in a U.S. nursing home raises concerns
					

Washington state reported the first U.S. death from the new #coronavirus, the first health care worker infected, and the first outbreak in a nursing home.




					www.statnews.com
				




First wave was in the Kirkland WA nursing home NOOB.  I was staying in Kirkland Jan 20th-22, 2020.  The next month the city I was hanging in the month before had the first outbreak.  This put some scare in me, I won't lie.  Plus, my whole plane was sick with Divoc-AI on the way back, I kid you not.  I took the Rona home with me and just like the Amish, I infected my clan.  We all got it and have never been sick again, I swear.  This is when I really took my marriage and health serious and have lost 45 pounds bro.  I quit eating meat all on my own because of what my wife had been telling me and my Doc pal, who told me the truth wants actually in the meat we eat. Today, I'm attacking my physical health like never before.  I feel amazing.  Light exercise like walking for one hour a day ((1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night before I go nigh nigh)).  I tell God and the Arch Angels, their Angels and all the others, "Thank you for everything.  Please help my family and everyone else on the planet who wants honesty, truth, fairness, no more cheating, no more fake illnesses and viruses and most but not least, no more fear of the unknown.  Too many people like Wat Fly who need to see IT to believe in IT or I like to say, "The GREAT I AM."  That would take Jesus to come back or at least have his teaching rule the earth like Revelations predicts will happen for 1000 years.  I also started to do light lifting.  I want to look not only great on the outside, but more importantly, I want to shine from the inside.  God told Samuel not to look at what people look at, the outside looks and money.  "No!!!!!!" God said.  God looks at the heart and people on earth only look at the outward appearance.  We all got cheated the last year and half.  Were coming on two years of all this.  I was told by a really good military pal of mine that America has weak men not willing to take a stand yet.  We need 80% of all America to say, "This is BS.  Another friend of my wife just got canned from her job because she won't get jabbed."


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Are you saying that people shouldn't get vaccinated because it didn't save an 84 year old man with blood cancer?
> 
> As for Herman Cain, the award is named after him not because he died of Covid but because, unlike General Powell, he was a Covid denying shit poster who thought it would be fun to intentionally spread the virus all across America.


What???  You are now Coo Coo 100%.  Where did you get your law degree again?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> The "virus" was man made because of the election fraud bro and IT only follows the minds of evil men & woman WHO use kids as pawns and use dumb dumbs and those WHO like being non confrontational.  Yes, even men like you wat fly that try and make nice with everyone and stay out of the debate.  Are you still agnostic?  Just wait, you will be see God bro and you won;t have to be in the middle anymore.  God loves you Wat Fly, don;t forget that   I think anyone with a brain today knows the truth by now.  If your little brain is for one side only, well then you only will get that side of the fraud.  Blind bats can;t do nothing.


Yeah Watfly, how do you feel getting called out as stupid by the dumbest anti-vax/mask schmuck alive?  It must feel good knowing you and crush share the same anti-vax/mask sentiments, although presumably you don't agree that a government made Covid because of election fraud since, uh, Covid existed for about a year before the election even happened. 

How do all of you anti-vaxxers/maskers out there reconcile that you are on the same side as complete fucking lunatics like crush?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> What???  You are now Coo Coo 100%.  Where did you get your law degree again?


How is unemployment? How does it feel knowing that you do not provide for your family?


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Yeah Watfly, how do you feel getting called out as stupid by the dumbest anti-vax/mask schmuck alive?  It must feel good knowing you and crush share the same anti-vax/mask sentiments, although presumably you don't agree that a government made Covid because of election fraud since, uh, Covid existed for about a year before the election even happened.
> 
> How do all of you anti-vaxxers/maskers out there reconcile that you are on the same side as complete fucking lunatics like crush?


Well Wat Fly, what say you?  Come on man, you can have EOTL and the evil that goes with him or you can come on over to the side of Crush.  Yes, I have emotions for God and I love him and I write how I feel.  You need more emotion in your life bro.  Trust me dude, God is VERY emotional.  The Ocean is much like the Lord.  EOTL is from the Dark side of the moon.  Crush lives in the light and denounces the evil bro.  I'm hear for you or anyone else who wants to learn more about the light and God's true purpose for your life.  This is all about, "MONEY!!!"


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> How is unemployment? How does it feel knowing that you do not provide for your family?


----------



## watfly

Thanks for starting my day with a good chuckle.  My apologies for not picking one side out of two narratives.  I choose to look at issues on a case by case basis and try to follow the data.  I was born a skeptic so I question everything, rightly or wrongly.


----------



## Grace T.

A significant portion (2x the mask/vaccine refusers) of the unvaccinated are people who will wear masks but not get the vaccine.  Another cost of the mask oversell....they've convinced a portion of the population they don't need to vaccinate because they are masked.









						COVID contradiction: they wear masks, but won’t get vaccinated
					

People who wear face masks yet aren’t vaccinated from COVID-19 make up a substantial portion of the unvaccinated U.S. population.




					news.northeastern.edu


----------



## Grace T.

It's turning....the dogs have risen up.....who knew dogs were bigger lovers of liberty than the police.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450476838057283591


----------



## GoldenGate

Fearless leader says you need to mock Colin Powell.  Time to step into line folks.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A significant portion (2x the mask/vaccine refusers) of the unvaccinated are people who will wear masks but not get the vaccine.  Another cost of the mask oversell....they've convinced a portion of the population they don't need to vaccinate because they are masked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID contradiction: they wear masks, but won’t get vaccinated
> 
> 
> People who wear face masks yet aren’t vaccinated from COVID-19 make up a substantial portion of the unvaccinated U.S. population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.northeastern.edu


Common sense seems to be difficult concept for our policy makers to grasp.  How many people went out in public knowingly sick thinking a mask would protect others?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> A significant portion (2x the mask/vaccine refusers) of the unvaccinated are people who will wear masks but not get the vaccine.  Another cost of the mask oversell....they've convinced a portion of the population they don't need to vaccinate because they are masked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID contradiction: they wear masks, but won’t get vaccinated
> 
> 
> People who wear face masks yet aren’t vaccinated from COVID-19 make up a substantial portion of the unvaccinated U.S. population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.northeastern.edu


You heard it here first. Covid deaths are the fault of people who are being prudent, not the anti-maskers/vaxxers.  Good one.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> You heard it here first. Covid deaths are the fault of people who are being prudent, not the anti-maskers/vaxxers.  Good one.


don't be afraid.  Your mask, vax, and social distancing will protect you.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Fearless leader says you need to mock Colin Powell.  Time to step into line folks.
> 
> 
> View attachment 11900


Yawn


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> So people are being caused to die sooner due to Covid tipping the scale away from their favor? But not a pandemic . . . excuses, excuses, excuses.
> If anything has come from the last 5 years it’s that some people have been convinced to feel free to find excuses for the craziest behaviors.


Speaking of crazy behavior.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> How is unemployment? How does it feel knowing that you do not provide for your family?


I suppose the good news here is that you didn't go after someone's DD.  Things are looking up for you.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Common sense seems to be difficult concept for our policy makers to grasp.  How many people went out in public knowingly sick thinking a mask would protect others?


One of the issues I encountered going to an elite college and elite law school is that many of the elite lived (don't know if it's true anymore) very sheltered lives up to that point (since they had to work so hard to get there...whether at sports, arts or academics).  Common sense intelligence was very lacking (I suppose I was capable of noticing it because I was the worst offender and therefore it was impossible not to notice it when I fell on my face).

Book smarts are not the same as street smarts and common sense and people had a dearth of it in these institutions.  Throw in a sheltered life and lack of real life experience from many of them and it's a recipe for disaster.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> One of the issues I encountered going to an elite college and elite law school is that many of the elite lived (don't know if it's true anymore) very sheltered lives up to that point (since they had to work so hard to get there...whether at sports, arts or academics).  Common sense intelligence was very lacking (I suppose I was capable of noticing it because I was the worst offender and therefore it was impossible not to notice it when I fell on my face).
> 
> Book smarts are not the same as street smarts and common sense and people had a dearth of it in these institutions.  Throw in a sheltered life and lack of real life experience from many of them and it's a recipe for disaster.


At least you admit that you have no common sense. Did you ever actually practice law, or did you squander all your equestrian skills and attendance at an elite college and law school and continue to live off a trust fund and an ex husband?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> One of the issues I encountered going to an elite college and elite law school is that many of the elite lived (don't know if it's true anymore) very sheltered lives up to that point (since they had to work so hard to get there...whether at sports, arts or academics).  Common sense intelligence was very lacking (I suppose I was capable of noticing it because I was the worst offender and therefore it was impossible not to notice it when I fell on my face).
> 
> Book smarts are not the same as street smarts and common sense and people had a dearth of it in these institutions.  Throw in a sheltered life and lack of real life experience from many of them and it's a recipe for disaster.


No question that that is not uncommon, its why I rarely hired a 4.0 with no real life experience, and preferred to hire B students that worked their way through school.

But the oversell of masks goes beyond this.  Masks are visible token that our policy makers are doing something about the pandemic and its a way to identify which camp you belong to.  You and I see someone outside exercising with a mask and think, huh, and question that individuals sanity, but to each their own.  Others on here pass someone hiking on a trail without a mask and think the person isn't taking the pandemic seriously and are putting everyone's life in danger.

Reality is that people are far more nuanced than that, and you don't know their motivations.  Unfortunately, our society has devolved into a prisoner of two camps mentality (see GG for Exhibit A) that is being promoted by our politicians and media.  You can't see a vaccine so masks are an easy way to place people in boxes.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Are you saying that people shouldn't get vaccinated because it didn't save an 84 year old man with blood cancer?


Glad you recognize co-morbidities.  According to the CDC, 95% of those who have died with Covid have an average of 4 other causes of death.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Glad you recognize co-morbidities.  According to the CDC, 95% of those who have died with Covid have an average of 4 other causes of death.


Of whom none would have died but for Covid.  Glad you don't give a shit about people with co-morbidities.  Let's just kill them all in support of your anti-vax/mask crusade, am I right? The general had it coming since he had blood cancer and was such a loser anyway according to fearless leader. Powell should have just stayed home so that the real patriots can parade around without masks or vaccines. 

Speaking of patriots....


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjqx05


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pri97t


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q84yk3


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0iw7t


----------



## Grace T.

San Francisco Closes In-N-Out Burger After Defying City's Vaccine Rule
					

In-N-Out Burger employees were allegedly "not preventing the entry of customers who were not carrying proper vaccination documentation."



					thehighwire.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> San Francisco Closes In-N-Out Burger After Defying City's Vaccine Rule
> 
> 
> In-N-Out Burger employees were allegedly "not preventing the entry of customers who were not carrying proper vaccination documentation."
> 
> 
> 
> thehighwire.com


And some wonder why biz hasn't rebounded, why people are out of work, etc.


SAN FRANCISCO CLOSES IN-N-OUT BURGER AFTER DEFYING CITY’S VACCINE RULE: “‘We refuse to become the vaccination police for any government. It is unreasonable, invasive, and unsafe to force our restaurant associates to segregate customers,’ wrote [In-N-Out Burger’s Chief Legal and Business Officer, Arnie Wensinger].”

Earlier: NYC Restaurateurs: Business Down 40 to 60 Percent Due to Vaccine Mandate.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> And some wonder why biz hasn't rebounded, why people are out of work, etc.
> 
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO CLOSES IN-N-OUT BURGER AFTER DEFYING CITY’S VACCINE RULE: “‘We refuse to become the vaccination police for any government. It is unreasonable, invasive, and unsafe to force our restaurant associates to segregate customers,’ wrote [In-N-Out Burger’s Chief Legal and Business Officer, Arnie Wensinger].”
> 
> Earlier: NYC Restaurateurs: Business Down 40 to 60 Percent Due to Vaccine Mandate.


What's the end game?  Is there even an end game?  Is it just people with power exercising they're power in a mindless fashion.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but is there really this push to have more people dependent on the government?   Seems to be the direction the policies are going.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> “‘We refuse to become the vaccination police for any government. It is unreasonable, invasive, and unsafe to force our restaurant associates to segregate customers,’ wrote [In-N-Out Burger’s Chief Legal and Business Officer, Arnie Wensinger].”


The irony of it all. Less police presence is a good thing but let's require our lowest-wage workers to enforce a policy that is known to be an emotional flashpoint. Pure genius.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> The irony of it all. Less police presence is a good thing but let's require our lowest-wage workers to enforce a policy that is known to be an emotional flashpoint. Pure genius.


Interesting how that works right?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> San Francisco Closes In-N-Out Burger After Defying City's Vaccine Rule
> 
> 
> In-N-Out Burger employees were allegedly "not preventing the entry of customers who were not carrying proper vaccination documentation."
> 
> 
> 
> thehighwire.com


Great.  Don't forget that the Wazzu football staff also got shown the door.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Glad you recognize co-morbidities.  According to the CDC, 95% of those who have died with Covid have an average of 4 other causes of death.


I'm calling bullshit on this.  Prove it.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> I'm calling bullshit on this.  Prove it.


You really are not too bright are you. 

It has been reported since about the beginning that the vast vast majority of people who die with covid had 3-4 other co-morbidities.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 wrote an article....I kid (well.....)....N95 masked teacher growling about kids "sinning"









						There's A COVID Testing Scam In My L.A. School And No One Is Listening To Me
					

"I tried this scam myself weeks ago. When I approached the security guard at the entrance kiosk, I felt like I was hiding a ticking bomb in my briefcase."




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Grace T.

I'm telling y'all....the dogs are in full COVID rebellion.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450534601592561664


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> I suppose the good news here is that you didn't go after someone's DD.  Things are looking up for you.


He already did what-happened and the damage has been done, trust me.  Black listed because of her old man she is.  It's too late to live in DA past.  I knew when I spoke out three years ago this could and would happen, what-happened.  I was warned by so many to STFU or else.  GG, EOTL, Espola, Dad and Husker know all the greats in the game and how the kickbacks really work behind closed door.  Dude has no kids in game but must make his case for the vax.  Trust me, I've been dealing with weirdos like him my entire life.  His time and his way is coming to an "end of the line" and he knows it.  Kicks a man while he's down and out of luck and maybe lives as well   Dad told me to leave the State because I will NEVER get jabbed with a foreign substance that is causing thousand and I mean1000s to die and 1000s being disabled with Palsy, Blood Clots, birthing issues and heart inflammation and now 1000s losing their jobs and income because they said "NEVER" as well.  I called him out four years ago and he told me to STFU and not to come on here.  This is about a man who cheats and puts others parents dd down and make sure they can't experience the college life like he get's paid to promote.  A true sicko who goes after 13 year old girls who want to be pro soccer players at that age and be on the YNT and win US Youth Soccer Championship and beat Deza's great EQ team of yesteryear.  This clown told me he would be here at the forum to squash me and make sure my message is a mess and all emotional.  Well, he lost because he treats females bad and I told him before if you treat girls & females like shit, you will lose.  Guess he lost but cheated?  Yup, EOTL & PoorEspola.  Cheats & Liars both of them.  Dividers of this great country.  True Elitist Pricks!!!  He's and evil little monster man, nothing else.


----------



## Grace T.

If this holds up and is true, herd immunity is a fantasy and vaccine passports are absolutely pointless......









						Waning COVID vaccine efficacy especially against reinfection
					

A new study in American veterans posted to the medRxiv* preprint server suggests severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) vaccines are less effective in preventing infection after six months. The decline was most significant with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, with vaccine...




					www.news-medical.net


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> How is unemployment? How does it feel knowing that you do not provide for your family?


*The Real EOTL!!!*


----------



## crush

This song goes out to everyone who just got fired because they say no to jabber doo.  Two weeks before Halloween is so sad.  Stay strong.  You will be compensated for the fraud by a few.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> I'm calling bullshit on this.  Prove it.








						COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
					

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.




					www.cdc.gov
				




_*For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.*_

Please remember that I "tend to post facts".


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> I'm calling bullshit on this.  Prove it.


Well, you do have a bit of a pyrrhic victory based on the numbers in Dec. 2020. It was 94% of deaths and an average of 2.9 other causes/co-morbidities.

“Conditions contributing to deaths involving COVID-19, by age group, United States. Week ending 2/1/2020 to 12/5/2020.
Data as of 12/6/2020
Source: National Center for Health Statistics. National Vital Statistics System. Provisional data. 2020.
This table shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). *For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.9 additional conditions or causes per death*. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. Values in the table represent number of deaths that mention the condition listed and 94% of deaths mention more than one condition. As such, the rows should not be summed. Additional notes are listed at the end of the table”

If you would like to look at the 152 page table on the cdc site:



			https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Of whom none would have died but for Covid.  Glad you don't give a shit about people with co-morbidities.  Let's just kill them all in support of your anti-vax/mask crusade, am I right? The general had it coming since he had blood cancer and was such a loser anyway according to fearless leader. Powell should have just stayed home so that the real patriots can parade around without masks or vaccines.
> 
> Speaking of patriots....
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjqx05
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pri97t
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q84yk3
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0iw7t


You are hilarous.  Who are you talking to? The shadows of your cubicle? But in reality this is our own fault, just continuously feeding you.  Is this your proving ground before you post on your subreddit?  The dumb shit that comes out of your mouth is worthy of your own channel.  I'm thinking you are a fixture on Libs of Tick Tock.  

I'm sure Powell was being stalked by a maskless, unvaccinated, and infected nefarious actor tied to the flat earther Qs.   Never mind that he likley surrounded himself by people who were aware of his increased risk.  Or maybe he just forgot about his risk and stopped off at Target on the way home.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
> 
> 
> Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.*_
> 
> Please remember that I "tend to post facts".


What I find interesting or sad is that almost 2 yrs into this, people are unaware of that rather important bit of information.


----------



## Desert Hound

N00B said:


> pyrrhic victory


You know you probably should have included an explanation as to what a pyrrhic victory is.


----------



## Grace T.

Bus drivers shortage forcing changes in schedule for LAUSD football, volleyball
					

LAUSD is working to help schools maintain night games in football.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> You are hilarous.  Who are you talking to? The shadows of your cubicle? But in reality this is our own fault, just continuously feeding you.  Is this your proving ground before you post on your subreddit?  The dumb shit that comes out of your mouth is worthy of your own channel.  I'm thinking you are a fixture on Libs of Tick Tock.
> 
> I'm sure Powell was being stalked by a maskless, unvaccinated, and infected nefarious actor tied to the flat earther Qs.   Never mind that he likley surrounded himself by people who were aware of his increased risk.  Or maybe he just forgot about his risk and stopped off at Target on the way home.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Are you saying that people shouldn't get vaccinated because it didn't save an 84 year old man with blood cancer?
> 
> As for Herman Cain, the award is named after him not because he died of Covid but because, unlike General Powell, he was a Covid denying shit poster who thought it would be fun to intentionally spread the virus all across America.


...no, I’m saying it shouldn't be one size fits all and does not meet cost vs. benefit for many ages groups…besides, it's not a vaccine under the age-old definition, it's a treatment at best. CDC changed the definition of vaccine & vaccination last month, are you curious as to why? It's being used for the usual political motivators: power and money...and most fell for it and continue to blindly follow, but some of us aren't playing along anymore.

…now, do fat shaming of the obesely unhealthy…you can call it:  “The Tubby Trophy”


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> dad4 wrote an article....I kid (well.....)....N95 masked teacher growling about kids "sinning"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's A COVID Testing Scam In My L.A. School And No One Is Listening To Me
> 
> 
> "I tried this scam myself weeks ago. When I approached the security guard at the entrance kiosk, I felt like I was hiding a ticking bomb in my briefcase."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com


It may have been dad writing it. 

In the article it said the teacher is gripped by fear when he teaches. 

I assume dad falls somewhat into that category based on his described actions over the past 20 months.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> dad4 wrote an article....I kid (well.....)....N95 masked teacher growling about kids "sinning"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's A COVID Testing Scam In My L.A. School And No One Is Listening To Me
> 
> 
> "I tried this scam myself weeks ago. When I approached the security guard at the entrance kiosk, I felt like I was hiding a ticking bomb in my briefcase."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com


Dad's been preaching to the "vaccinated beyond herd immunity" choir for over a year. He needs to get a signboard - English on one side and Spanish on the other - go out into the high case neighborhoods and call out all those "assholes" who are not vaccinated and/or not wearing masks. Until then, he's just talking to make himself feel better.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> You are hilarous.  Who are you talking to? The shadows of your cubicle? But in reality this is our own fault, just continuously feeding you.


When having a discussion among peers in a room with the windows open and the dog outside starts barking wildly, you close the windows. No need to tell it to shut up or expect it to contribute to the discussion. It's a dog.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> dad4 wrote an article....I kid (well.....)....N95 masked teacher growling about kids "sinning"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's A COVID Testing Scam In My L.A. School And No One Is Listening To Me
> 
> 
> "I tried this scam myself weeks ago. When I approached the security guard at the entrance kiosk, I felt like I was hiding a ticking bomb in my briefcase."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffpost.com


There is no way this is real.  I think HuffPost is being punked.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *One of the issues I encountered going to an elite college and elite law school is that many of the elite lived (don't know if it's true anymore) very sheltered lives up to that point (since they had to work so hard to get there...whether at sports, arts or academics).  Common sense intelligence was very lacking (I suppose I was capable of noticing it because I was the worst offender and therefore it was impossible not to notice it when I fell on my face).*
> 
> Book smarts are not the same as street smarts and common sense and people had a dearth of it in these institutions.  Throw in a sheltered life and lack of real life experience from many of them and it's a recipe for disaster.


Grace T, this is excellent and honest.  The Elitist man lacks basic street smarts and when out foxed by a street smart kind of guy, they cheat to win or will kill or start a war so they win.  The secret society elitist groups that practice pure evil are the elitist that I dealt with.  Their time is over thank God.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Had” being the operative word. “Had” previously but beat it a couple years before he attended an unmasked trump super-spreader rally.


...and there it is, village idiots right on cue.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> There is no way this is real.  I think HuffPost is being punked.


If someone did punk them, they've been reading this forum...I mean it's like spot on complete with the sinners and N95 masks.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
> 
> 
> Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.*_
> 
> Please remember that I "tend to post facts".


More on this --









						Fact check: 94% of individuals with additional causes of death still had COVID-19
					

Shared thousands of times on Facebook, posts claim that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) “quietly updated” its COVID-19 data “to admit that only 6% of all the 153,504 (U.S.) deaths recorded actually died from (COVID-19).” According to the posts, the CDC...




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Grace T, this is excellent and honest.  The Elitist man lacks basic street smarts and when out foxed by a street smart kind of guy, they cheat to win or will kill or start a war so they win.  The secret society elitist groups that practice pure evil are the elitist that I dealt with.  Their time is over thank God.


I was so naive when I was 20 I got scammed in a tax cab line scam my first time on my own (not in a group tour or with parents) in NYC. 

I like to pride myself that I spent my 20s catching up rapidly (and under constant fire, landing flat on my face more often than not).


----------



## met61

Bruddah IZ said:


> don't be afraid.  Your mask, vax, and social distancing will protect you.


...and flatten the earth, I mean curve.


----------



## met61

Bruddah IZ said:


> Yawn


...TDS


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> More on this --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: 94% of individuals with additional causes of death still had COVID-19
> 
> 
> Shared thousands of times on Facebook, posts claim that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) “quietly updated” its COVID-19 data “to admit that only 6% of all the 153,504 (U.S.) deaths recorded actually died from (COVID-19).” According to the posts, the CDC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


I'm not claiming that they didn't also die of Covid.

My point is the same one that Met61 is making in that we should of put more effort and focus towards protecting the vulnerable, then locking down the healthy.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> One of the issues I encountered going to an elite college and elite law school is that many of the elite lived (don't know if it's true anymore) very sheltered lives up to that point (since they had to work so hard to get there...whether at sports, arts or academics).  Common sense intelligence was very lacking (I suppose I was capable of noticing it because I was the worst offender and therefore it was impossible not to notice it when I fell on my face).
> 
> Book smarts are not the same as street smarts and common sense and people had a dearth of it in these institutions.  Throw in a sheltered life and lack of real life experience from many of them and it's a recipe for disaster.


...who are "Those Who Lack Wisdom" ?


----------



## Kicker4Life

watfly said:


> COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
> 
> 
> Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.*_
> 
> Please remember that I "tend to post facts".


Que another REDDIT rant….


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> You know you probably should have included an explanation as to what a pyrrhic victory is.


Because it is an inappropriate description?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Of whom none would have died but for Covid.  Glad you don't give a shit about people with co-morbidities.  Let's just kill them all in support of your anti-vax/mask crusade, am I right? The general had it coming since he had blood cancer and was such a loser anyway according to fearless leader. Powell should have just stayed home so that the real patriots can parade around without masks or vaccines.
> 
> Speaking of patriots....
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pjqx05
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/pri97t
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q84yk3
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q0iw7t


...now do those who died of AIDS...maybe call it: "The Fiddler Follies"


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Great.  Don't forget that the Wazzu football staff also got shown the door.


...yet, Congress and Staff are exempt from the mandate and your only response is...baaa baaaaa


----------



## Kicker4Life

met61 said:


> ...yet, Congress and Staff are exempt from the mandate and your only response is...baaa baaaaa


Don’t forget about the Correctional Officers Union members are also fighting for exemption with Newsome’s support!



			https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/the-state-worker/article254990142.html
		


Apparently $1.75 million gets you Covid Protection.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Dad's been preaching to the "vaccinated beyond herd immunity" choir for over a year. He needs to get a signboard - English on one side and Spanish on the other - go out into the high case neighborhoods and call out all those "assholes" who are not vaccinated and/or not wearing masks. Until then, he's just talking to make himself feel better.


Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are.  Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.

We don’t even see the same data in the same event.   You guys look at Colin Powell’s death and see a co-morbidity or a vaccine failure.  I look at the same event and see a concrete example of why reducing community spread is important- some people have immune systems that don’t respond well to vaccines.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Because it is an inappropriate description?


Because the cost of Covid policy… wait. You know what it means… you just get lost on the way to your conclusion.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are.  Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.
> 
> We don’t even see the same data in the same event.   You guys look at Colin Powell’s death and see a co-morbidity or a vaccine failure.  I look at the same event and see a concrete example of why reducing community spread is important- some people have immune systems that don’t respond well to vaccines.


...does the vaccine (age-old  definition) do much of anything for community spread? 

...or put differently, before mandating it and killing folk's jobs and livelihoods... shouldn't it do more for community spread?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Because it is an inappropriate description?


...resounding no, perfect description!

...everything in the form of a question...too many Jeopardy reruns. You live in SoCal, try getting out more.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are.  Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.
> 
> We don’t even see the same data in the same event.   You guys look at Colin Powell’s death and see a co-morbidity or a vaccine failure.  I look at the same event and see a concrete example of why reducing community spread is important- some people have immune systems that don’t respond well to vaccines.


If the vaccines decline as much as in the study in the article I referenced, vaccine herd immunity is a fantasy.  If anything, the only way we can get to herd immunity is by not engaging in NPIs that postpone things (but that's assuming natural immunity is long lasting against all variants, which we aren't sure about yet either), that means that you are being selfish by trying to avoid the virus (since it prolongs all this for all of us), but that means there's not much we can do for people like poor Colin Powell (though the sooner we get there we might spare another Colin Powell equivalent 2 years down the line).

Back in my div school hanging out days, there was this nice evangelical guy who would hang out with us all. He was very tolerant of our arguments (ranging from the shockingly out right atheist even though it was the div school) to my weird theory about religion being like prisms (they all scattered some portion of truth).  Very much a literalist, though, who did his best to convince us the Bible is the spoken word of God, and that the world was some 4000 years old.  Even humored me on a tour of the natural history museum, which he angrily pushed aside as propaganda.  Some time around Easter he blew up at us at a gathering in the lounge, saying we were incorigible and we were all going to hell, even though we were all overwhelmingly welcoming of his point of view.

It's not our side of the table which is trying to censor dialogue...we aren't the ones pulling tweets or facebook posts...we aren't the ones telling people they should just shut up and do as they are told....we aren't the ones telling people they are fing morons or c words.  When this started, remember it was those of us on team reality who were in the minority.  We've always welcomed your point of view which has always been constructive (unlike the 3 trolls), and your critiques have sharpened our own.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are.  Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.
> 
> We don’t even see the same data in the same event.   You guys look at Colin Powell’s death and see a co-morbidity or a vaccine failure.  I look at the same event and see a concrete example of why reducing community spread is important- some people have immune systems that don’t respond well to vaccines.


...or maybe it's as simple as @dad4 has painted himself into a corner and can't get out.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> If the vaccines decline as much as in the study in the article I referenced, vaccine herd immunity is a fantasy.  If anything, the only way we can get to herd immunity is by not engaging in NPIs that postpone things (but that's assuming natural immunity is long lasting against all variants, which we aren't sure about yet either), that means that you are being selfish by trying to avoid the virus (since it prolongs all this for all of us), but that means there's not much we can do for people like poor Colin Powell (though the sooner we get there we might spare another Colin Powell equivalent 2 years down the line).
> 
> Back in my div school hanging out days, there was this nice evangelical guy who would hang out with us all. He was very tolerant of our arguments (ranging from the shockingly out right atheist even though it was the div school) to my weird theory about religion being like prisms (they all scattered some portion of truth).  Very much a literalist, though, who did his best to convince us the Bible is the spoken word of God, and that the world was some 4000 years old.  Even humored me on a tour of the natural history museum, which he angrily pushed aside as propaganda.  Some time around Easter he blew up at us at a gathering in the lounge, saying we were incorigible and we were all going to hell, even though we were all overwhelmingly welcoming of his point of view.
> 
> It's not our side of the table which is trying to censor dialogue...we aren't the ones pulling tweets or facebook posts...we aren't the ones telling people they should just shut up and do as they are told....we aren't the ones telling people they are fing morons or c words.  When this started, remember it was those of us on team reality who were in the minority.  We've always welcomed your point of view which has always been constructive (unlike the 3 trolls), and your critiques have sharpened our own.


[Catholic] Amen Sister!


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Because the cost of Covid policy… wait. You know what it means… you just get lost on the way to your conclusion.


The accustomed usage to describe a tactical victory that is not worth the strategic cost.  I don't see it.

From Pyrrus, a Greek King of a small state, who, after driving off invading Romans, claimed that his army would be finished if they won another such battle.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> The accustomed usage to describe a tactical victory that is not worth the strategic cost.  I don't see it.
> 
> From Pyrrus, a Greek King of a small state, who, after driving off invading Romans, claimed that his army would be finished if they won another such battle.


...don't expect you to see it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are.  Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.


If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.


The prob dad and others like him have is they believe that gov intervention would stop this thing. 

The realists realized that the virus is going to spread and as such get the at risk vaxxed when possible. Outside of that move on with life and stop doing things that don't make a difference virus wise, but hurt biz, kids in schools, etc. This was the minority position initially. But you see the world start to move in that direction as they realize this thing is endemic and we may as well move along with that in mind.


----------



## lafalafa

Well the vaccine lottery's are still being promoted in CA.

Govt involved and promoted gambling  "winning" is a interesting concept where apparently "bribing" is ok  for a "cause".









						Vaccinated teenagers could win free tuition at SFSU
					

The drawing will be held on Nov. 15.




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## espola

lafalafa said:


> Well the vaccine lottery's are still being promoted in CA.
> 
> Govt involved and promoted gambling  "winning" is a interesting concept where apparently "bribing" is ok  for a "cause".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated teenagers could win free tuition at SFSU
> 
> 
> The drawing will be held on Nov. 15.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


It's not gambling if it's free to enter.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.


This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.

Look at your own post.  I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?   

Not a place for subtlety.


----------



## lafalafa

espola said:


> It's not gambling if it's free to enter.


Not money that you're gambling with and it's not free either $20-40 per dose x 1b is a lot of $$.

The govt is gambling with tax payer $$ and spending on advertising, prizes, lotteries, tests, vax, promotions, etc  to future a agenda


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.
> 
> Look at your own post.  I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?
> 
> Not a place for subtlety.


At this point you've been crushed, pathetic to watch. Best to get on with the 5 stages.


----------



## watfly

lafalafa said:


> Well the vaccine lottery's are still being promoted in CA.
> 
> Govt involved and promoted gambling  "winning" is a interesting concept where apparently "bribing" is ok  for a "cause".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated teenagers could win free tuition at SFSU
> 
> 
> The drawing will be held on Nov. 15.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


When compliance through fear doesn't work, try bribery.  It's also my parenting methodology.  Of course, it doesn't work on my kids either.


----------



## espola

lafalafa said:


> Not money that you're gambling with and it's not free either $20-40 per dose x 1b is a lot of $$.
> 
> The govt is gambling with tax payer $$ and spending on advertising, prizes, lotteries, tests, vax, promotions, etc  to future a agenda


Weak


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.
> 
> Look at your own post.  I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?
> 
> Not a place for subtlety.


It's why I disagree with you. It's a line of thinking that is and has been used to coerce people and I believe it's a bad idea to use it in this case. It also removes power from individuals and we all seemed to agree that there is too much power in too few hands. It will drive more divisiveness that we can't afford - assuming the goal is to maintain a united country.

Do you find anything subtle about forcing individuals to get vaccinated?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.
> 
> Look at your own post.  I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?
> 
> Not a place for subtlety.


Iirc my evangelical friend had a similar rant the day he stormed out: we weren’t a group for “consensus and open dialogue” since we spent all our time trying to “show me up” and “prove me wrong”. Our hearts weren’t truly open to God and Jesus (never mind two of us were Jewish) therefore further discussions were fruitless and he would pray for poor souls in our damnation

funny how life repeats itself. Full…freaking…circle.

ps you said at one point neighbors should inform on each other for private gatherings. Pretty despotic. Even if you never said it outright your sympathies have always been australia.


----------



## lafalafa

espola said:


> Weak


Yeah that's your immunity over time weakening even with a vax .

The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to *47%* from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday By Reuters

All that for 47%,  gambling yup pretty much but you're not given many or any options unless you want to stay isolated in CA.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> At this point you've been crushed, pathetic to watch. Best to get on with the 5 stages.


There is a difference between questions of fact and popularity contests.

How disease spreads and whether masks and vaccines work are questions of fact.  Whether you like the answers is pretty much irrelevant.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's why I disagree with you. It's a line of thinking that is and has been used to coerce people and I believe it's a bad idea to use it in this case. It also removes power from individuals and we all seemed to agree that there is too much power in too few hands. It will drive more divisiveness that we can't afford - assuming the goal is to maintain a united country.
> 
> Do you find anything subtle about forcing individuals to get vaccinated?


It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.

There is no pure individualist answer.  Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.

It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern.  But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists.  Therefore no discussion.  Just echo chamber.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> There is a difference between questions of fact and popularity contests.
> 
> How disease spreads and whether masks and vaccines work are questions of fact.  Whether you like the answers is pretty much irrelevant.


Stage 1: Denial and Isolation


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.
> 
> There is no pure individualist answer.  Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.
> 
> It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern.  But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists.  Therefore no discussion.  Just echo chamber.


The difference is the natural state of things is to be exposed to viruses. There is no natural state of things where you are exposed to a vaccine. It’s a bit of a trolley problem.

But it’s an impure trolley problem because the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from catching the disease. If the studies are right, The breakthroughs are high enough that vaccine herd immunity is impossible and natural herd immunity might be our only option. Not catching the virus is likely not an option on the table.

and it’s funny you are the one mentioning cost/benefits when you’ve fought doing that analysis at every turn


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.
> 
> There is no pure individualist answer.  Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.
> 
> It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern. * But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists.  Therefore no discussion.  Just echo chamber.*


Sometmes you are your own echo chamber.  You are certainly consistent with your message.  Unfortunately your zero tolerance approach isn't popular and isn't reasonable.  Your own country is 75% fully vaccinated and 80% 1st dose.  Pretty good.  I suspect the majority of those unvaccinated are in the 12-17 age group.  For all of CA, roughly 1/3 of that age group hasn't  been vaccinated.  Your county is probably nearly the same.  Go and live it up, you are in a safe bubble where you live.

*Vaccinating age groups that are low risk is silly and a waste of time and resources.* Around 7K people have died due to breakthrough cases.  It's going to continue to happen.  I expect that number to increase as vaccines wane, boosters are neglected, and people who are vaccine brave continue to spread the virus.  As we learn more about the virus it becomes even more clear who's really at risk.  Many are starting to see this as a vascular disease rather than a respiratory disease.  Makes sense really based on the demographic that is most susceptible. 

If you really want to help, saddle up and take part in a vaccine marketing campaign in hispanic and black neighorhoods.  Each group is sitting on close to 50% still not vaccinated.  There is your community spread.  The numbers have gotten better but they certainly have room to grow.   I would wager that everyone or close to it on this forum is fully vaccinated.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.
> 
> There is no pure individualist answer.  Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.
> 
> It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern.  But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists.  Therefore no discussion.  Just echo chamber.


There is no forced exposure. You have a choice. Stay inside and order delivery. My choice was to get the vaccine and get back to a reasonably normal life. Although, I am still pissed at about my exposure to that butterfly in China that caused my little league game to be rained out. We get exposed to things every day due to our interactions - and some are not good things. Sensible people call that "life" and deal with it as best they can because they realize trying to control others is a losing proposition. The problem with those in your room is that they completely ignore ANY effects other than COVID. You say we don't admit an issue exists and I say you only see one issue. All of life's decisions are made through the lens of COVID. Children in NorCal bear an inordinate burden






						AAP, AACAP, CHA declare national emergency in children’s mental health | AAP News | American Academy of Pediatrics
					






					www.aappublications.org
				




in part, due to the ridiculously overestimated risk by adults which drives fear and anxiety.









						U.S. Adults' Estimates of COVID-19 Hospitalization Risk
					

Americans' estimates of both the risk of hospitalization due to COVID-19 and the efficacy of the vaccine for the disease vary widely by their political affiliation and vaccination status.




					news.gallup.com
				




"Long Covid" will be a much smaller problem than the long-term effects of overblown fear and anxiety of Covid. There are going to be many, many broken people who never had a serious case of COVID.

So, yes, I see the issue of potentially having more infections but that's not the only issue I see.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> When compliance through fear doesn't work, try bribery.  It's also my parenting methodology.  Of course, it doesn't work on my kids either.


It used to!


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> The accustomed usage to describe a tactical victory that is not worth the strategic cost.  I don't see it.
> 
> From Pyrrus, a Greek King of a small state, who, after driving off invading Romans, claimed that his army would be finished if they won another such battle.


Yes, exactly. You do know what it means!



Grace T. said:


> it’s funny you are the one mentioning cost/benefits when you’ve fought doing that analysis at every turn


Odd… others here have been speaking about the ‘costs’ for some time.  I’d spam quote the thread from all the times costs have been brought up, but that’s EOTL’s thing and I think that behavior should be banned from the forum, even in off topic.



espola said:


> *I don't see it.*


I don’t think I can help you, but Grace would recommend looking for your glasses.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Yes, exactly. You do know what it means!
> 
> 
> 
> Odd… others here have been speaking about the ‘costs’ for some time.  I’d spam quote the thread from all the times costs have been brought up, but that’s EOTL’s thing and I think that behavior should be banned from the forum, even in off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think I can help you, but Grace would recommend looking for your glasses.


Word salad.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Word salad.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Word salad.


Succubus


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*"Self-frightened elites seem to think they can remedy their lack of credibility .. by simply amping up the volume on the scare machine. I suspect they might be in for a bigger response than they ever imagined."*

*They’re all around us, especially those of us who live in relatively prosperous metropolitan neighborhoods in the US or Western Europe. Despite being—at least in material terms—among the most fortunate people who have ever walked the earth, they are very scared. And they want you to be very frightened too.*

*Indeed, many of them see your refusal to be as frightened as they are about life’s inevitable risks as a grave problem which entitles them and their often powerful and influential fellow travelers to recur to all manner of authoritarian practices to insure that you adhere to their increasingly neurotic view of reality.*

This tendency has been in full bloom lately as the people who have sat safely behind their laptops during the last 20 months have harangued and threatened those who have been out on job sites and meatpacking plants mixing freely with others and the virus, to internalize their own obsessions. 

And when these supposedly ignorant others—whose storehouse of empirical evidence about the dangers of the virus easily outstrips that of the laptoppers—refuse to buckle to the demand to be scared, they are met with all sorts of opprobrium. 

*Viewed in historical terms, it’s an odd phenomenon.

For most of recorded time prosperity and education have been the gateway to a life of relative freedom from worry. But now, the people who most enjoy these benefits are, it seems, wracked with anxiety and, in the not infrequent way of many people suffering that plague, and hellbent on sharing their misery with others.*

The point here is not to belittle the very real costs of anxiety in the lives of many people, nor to dismiss it as a real public health concern. Rather, it is to ask how and why it is proliferating so rapidly among those who, at least on the surface, have less reason than the vast majority of their fellow human beings to suffer from it.

There are, I think, a number of possible explanations.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> *"Self-frightened elites seem to think they can remedy their lack of credibility .. by simply amping up the volume on the scare machine. I suspect they might be in for a bigger response than they ever imagined."*
> 
> *They’re all around us, especially those of us who live in relatively prosperous metropolitan neighborhoods in the US or Western Europe. Despite being—at least in material terms—among the most fortunate people who have ever walked the earth, they are very scared. And they want you to be very frightened too.
> 
> Indeed, many of them see your refusal to be as frightened as they are about life’s inevitable risks as a grave problem which entitles them and their often powerful and influential fellow travelers to recur to all manner of authoritarian practices to insure that you adhere to their increasingly neurotic view of reality.*
> 
> This tendency has been in full bloom lately as the people who have sat safely behind their laptops during the last 20 months have harangued and threatened those who have been out on job sites and meatpacking plants mixing freely with others and the virus, to internalize their own obsessions.
> 
> And when these supposedly ignorant others—whose storehouse of empirical evidence about the dangers of the virus easily outstrips that of the laptoppers—refuse to buckle to the demand to be scared, they are met with all sorts of opprobrium.
> 
> *Viewed in historical terms, it’s an odd phenomenon.
> 
> For most of recorded time prosperity and education have been the gateway to a life of relative freedom from worry. But now, the people who most enjoy these benefits are, it seems, wracked with anxiety and, in the not infrequent way of many people suffering that plague, and hellbent on sharing their misery with others.*
> 
> The point here is not to belittle the very real costs of anxiety in the lives of many people, nor to dismiss it as a real public health concern. Rather, it is to ask how and why it is proliferating so rapidly among those who, at least on the surface, have less reason than the vast majority of their fellow human beings to suffer from it.
> 
> There are, I think, a number of possible explanations.


They scared.  When you sit and talk to one of them you soon realize the virus of fear has them and no jab or booster can fix fear.  To help those like Dad, you will soon be able to mix up your Boosters.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Florida Registers Nation’s Lowest COVID Case Numbers


----------



## crush

Hey Bruddah, I was having a debate the other day with a Dad4 type of dad.  He thinks he's a local  from CA.  Fact is, dude moved here from Boston 15 years ago.  He acts like he's lived in South OC his whole life.  He is a poser and one big fake.  Anyway, he told me I should move out of the State if I wont submit to the double shots and boosters for life.  I gave him the truth from my soul and he 100% put his hands over his ears and started to yell, I kid you not.  I spoke truth and he could not handle the truth.  These men and their fear is the problem.


----------



## Brav520

CDC Dr. Rochelle Walensky says that even if kids get vaccinated (per FDA approval) schools should still have mask mandates

"As we head into these winter months, we cannot be complacent


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> CDC Dr. Rochelle Walensky says that even if kids get vaccinated (per FDA approval) schools should still have mask mandates
> 
> "As we head into these winter months, we cannot be complacent


Poor kids man.  I'm shocked fathers stand around with their hands in their pockets as their children are masked away into the educational system.  I knew when i was 7 years old this system was a mess.


----------



## lafalafa

Well the vax or you can't work deals are really heating up especially in the public service sectors like police, fire, and now bus drivers









						Bus drivers shortage forcing changes in schedule for LAUSD football, volleyball
					

LAUSD is working to help schools maintain night games in football.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*According to the logic of the Faucian Temple of Government Science, the data demonstrating Florida’s superiority means every other state in the nation must at once follow Florida’s example and remove all restrictions purportedly implemented in order to “stop the spread.” All Vax Passes must be thrown out. All mandates must be extinguished immediately in the name of The Science. *

*Florida is currently “stopping the spread” better than the rest of the nation. No more masks, no more closures, no more lockdowns, and no more restrictions whatsoever. Failing to follow Florida means that you’re a certified Science Denier. The Branch Covidians of the Kingdom of Government Science mustn’t depart from their faith. Don’t be a Science Denier. Embrace freedom, and as the self-proclaimed human embodiment of science itself, Dr. Anthony Fauci, is known to say, “your numbers will come down.”

https://brownstone.org/articles/florida-registers-nations-lowest-covid-case-numbers/*


----------



## crush

lafalafa said:


> Well the vax or you can't work deals are really heating up especially in the public service sectors like police, fire, and now bus drivers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bus drivers shortage forcing changes in schedule for LAUSD football, volleyball
> 
> 
> LAUSD is working to help schools maintain night games in football.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


My pals wife got fired on October 18th.  11 years at the job.  She was on the front lines back in March 2020 when everyone had some fear of the unknown bat virus from Wuhan.  Today, we know WTF is going on.  The good guys are still waiting for Mr. Appeaser to wake his ass up and get on the rightside of life.  We need 80% of America on board for fairness and honesty before party or job.  Too many Americans sold out because of fear and fear of loss income.  Real type of fear but not right for anyone who wants real freedom & Independence from Big Brother.  My military pal says were past 60% but still have weak men who can;t get off the pot.  I know these men well and so does our special ops SMS guys.  Once we get to 80% who are sick of this BS, life will get better.  Until then, I am now in Hibernation, just like a Grizzly Bear.  I will come back, just not now  These great men worked hard and played by the rules and now the whole system is crashing on them and they can't believe it. It's ok for it to full a part btw because it has to because we will build better but not on my back or the other suckers back. We will build a better America when we all work together, It's time we blow this sucker up and start over with new rules, MOO!!! Rule #1. No more cheating. Rule #2. No more "pay to play" so kid and be on the team that dad bought so he can be cool. Rule #3. No more Mr. Middleman and fake test takers to get into school so you can play soccer. Rule #4. No more "my way or the highway." Let's all look to build a new today so tomorrow doesn;t look so horrible. People are scare and full of fear and that is not why we came to earth. No way I say!!! We came here to love each and play games the right way with each other. Life is a game but we were playing with Cheaters & Liars & Killers & Other horrible traits that we will all soon learn more about. It will make your tummy turn   Life should be fun and fair all in one.  Those on board witht he truth will want to stay and help.  Those who cheat, well then they will want to exist out asap, as some are now doing.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> There is no forced exposure. You have a choice.


He has had an issue with this from day one. 

When it was very clear which age groups were at risk early on, the logical solution would be to focus on them and isolate those who wanted to be. He and others said nope...everyone has to lock down. 

The reality is that was never going to work. You cannot just shut down biz, harm kids, etc for a virus that is going to spread no matter what. 

We are at the point where those who want the vaxx have gotten it. Those that don't have also made their choice. 

Time to move on. And fortunately more and more people and governments are waking up to .....REALITY. 

You dont shut down things because a small percentage of people cannot take the vaxx. If someone cannot take the vax because they have a health issue that prevents it, then THEY need to do what they can to minimize their exposure. The idea that the rest of society must shut down, restrict, wear masks when not needed, etc is not logical or productive in the least.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.
> 
> Not a place for subtlety.


Says the man who believes we should force people to get vaccines and tell on our neighbors. Maybe you are not the person for nuance or consensus building.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I also see dad and little Husker, mean Golden Gate and the lying Espola holding things up for dear life.  You guys chose this path of cheating and because your the last one to hold things up for Joe and his party, well then, when you let go it will crush you.  Crush tried to warn you for four a very long time but you dug heal in the ground ((pride before the fall)) and white knuckled a lie to the end of the line and no pass go and collect $200, only go directly to jail.  We caught you!!  Busted!!


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...yet, Congress and Staff are exempt from the mandate and your only response is...baaa baaaaa


I'd love to fire anti-vax members of Congress, and I'm sure the governor of WA would love to also. Unfortunately, he only has the legal authority to fire state employees. I think you need to go back to elementary school and relearn how the different branches of government work.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> *"Self-frightened elites seem to think they can remedy their lack of credibility .. by simply amping up the volume on the scare machine. I suspect they might be in for a bigger response than they ever imagined."*
> 
> *They’re all around us, especially those of us who live in relatively prosperous metropolitan neighborhoods in the US or Western Europe. Despite being—at least in material terms—among the most fortunate people who have ever walked the earth, they are very scared. And they want you to be very frightened too.
> 
> Indeed, many of them see your refusal to be as frightened as they are about life’s inevitable risks as a grave problem which entitles them and their often powerful and influential fellow travelers to recur to all manner of authoritarian practices to insure that you adhere to their increasingly neurotic view of reality.*
> 
> This tendency has been in full bloom lately as the people who have sat safely behind their laptops during the last 20 months have harangued and threatened those who have been out on job sites and meatpacking plants mixing freely with others and the virus, to internalize their own obsessions.
> 
> And when these supposedly ignorant others—whose storehouse of empirical evidence about the dangers of the virus easily outstrips that of the laptoppers—refuse to buckle to the demand to be scared, they are met with all sorts of opprobrium.
> 
> *Viewed in historical terms, it’s an odd phenomenon.
> 
> For most of recorded time prosperity and education have been the gateway to a life of relative freedom from worry. But now, the people who most enjoy these benefits are, it seems, wracked with anxiety and, in the not infrequent way of many people suffering that plague, and hellbent on sharing their misery with others.*
> 
> The point here is not to belittle the very real costs of anxiety in the lives of many people, nor to dismiss it as a real public health concern. Rather, it is to ask how and why it is proliferating so rapidly among those who, at least on the surface, have less reason than the vast majority of their fellow human beings to suffer from it.
> 
> There are, I think, a number of possible explanations.


IKR?  No one dies from Covid.  Well, here are some former shit posters like yourself and recent Herman Cain Award winners from the last 24 hours alone.  


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc1769


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc59qf


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc2qxz


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc0tsu


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc5326
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbtp9n/orange_is_another_classic_awardee_someone_really/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc58di/a_florida_hca_recipient_who_didnt_listen_to_his/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbr0lk/36_year_old_beloved_snowmobile_ambassador_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbohb7/teal_who_i_nominated_two_hours_ago_has_won_her/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc6nja/sr_y_sra_freedom_were_antilockdown_antimask/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc5tz5/team_prayer_warriors_shrinks_by_one_as_pickles/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbiwaw/this_ends_when_we_all_say_no/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbly0g/he_worried_about_microchips_but_not_about_his_12/


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I also see dad and little Husker, mean Golden Gate and the lying Espola holding things up for dear life.  You guys chose this path of cheating and because your the last one to hold things up for Joe and his party, well then, when you let go it will crush you.  Crush tried to warn you for four a very long time but you dug heal in the ground ((pride before the fall)) and white knuckled a lie to the end of the line and no pass go and collect $200, only go directly to jail.  We caught you!!  Busted!!
> 
> View attachment 11912


I think this looks more like your current financial situation.  How's unemployment going?


----------



## Grace T.

There is apparently no masking off ramp for kids.....anyone who thought the vaccine being approved for 5-12 would end it for them was dreaming (just look at the colleges despite the 99% vaccination rates in some).









						CDC boss Walensky says schools should keep mask mandates even if kids are vaccinated
					

U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday that schools should keep mask mandates, even if children are vaccinated.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> There is apparently no masking off ramp for kids.....anyone who thought the vaccine being approved for 5-12 would end it for them was dreaming (just look at the colleges despite the 99% vaccination rates in some).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC boss Walensky says schools should keep mask mandates even if kids are vaccinated
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday that schools should keep mask mandates, even if children are vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


So that also points out the idiocy of these people. 

Kids have essentially zero risk. Masks and vaccines will not move the needle one bit. 

But after taking the vaxx...they still want them to wear masks? 

What exactly is the point of a vaxx if they tell you that nothing will change in terms of what they make you do? Without a vaxx, they want to restrict kids and have them wear masks. With the vax? Same thing. What is the point?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> There is apparently no masking off ramp for kids.....anyone who thought the vaccine being approved for 5-12 would end it for them was dreaming (just look at the colleges despite the 99% vaccination rates in some).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC boss Walensky says schools should keep mask mandates even if kids are vaccinated
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday that schools should keep mask mandates, even if children are vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


I have never been a fan of our "expert" class and political leaders. 

The past 2 yrs has reinforced my perception of them. They are for the most part worthless and do far more harm than good.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> There is apparently no masking off ramp for kids.....anyone who thought the vaccine being approved for 5-12 would end it for them was dreaming (just look at the colleges despite the 99% vaccination rates in some).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC boss Walensky says schools should keep mask mandates even if kids are vaccinated
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday that schools should keep mask mandates, even if children are vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


The administration is doing a big rollout to get the 5-12 vaccinated, which they should do to be prepared.  However, I don't think there is going to be a big demand for vaccinating this group and still requiring masks isn't going to help that cause.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> So that also points out the idiocy of these people.
> 
> Kids have essentially zero risk. Masks and vaccines will not move the needle one bit.
> 
> But after taking the vaxx...they still want them to wear masks?
> 
> What exactly is the point of a vaxx if they tell you that nothing will change in terms of what they make you do? Without a vaxx, they want to restrict kids and have them wear masks. With the vax? Same thing. What is the point?


Think Spirit Realm bro.  This is where most leave me alone.  6 feet, mask for children is a ritual that has been going on since the great flood.  The worship of Murdock,  Baal and the devil himself is real, regardless of one's personal belife that their parents shoved down throat.  Grace T got judge  by the Elitist Evangelical.  This type of human is the worst.  Not only does he think he's always rtight, be has God only on his side and the rest are thrown into hell and gnashing of teath.  All a big lie.  I will be teaching a class on Mercy in December.  These are sick and satanic monsters and most were born into the occult and forced into this. I kid you not.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I'd love to fire anti-vax members of Congress, and I'm sure the governor of WA would love to also. Unfortunately, he only has the legal authority to fire state employees. I think you need to go back to elementary school and relearn how the different branches of government work.


Why do you think it's ok to exempt congress and the courts? Why does that make sense? And please don't give me the seperate branches of government BS.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> I'd love to fire anti-vax members of Congress, and I'm sure the governor of WA would love to also. Unfortunately, he only has the legal authority to fire state employees. I think you need to go back to elementary school and relearn how the different branches of government work.


...run Forrest run!


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> There is apparently no masking off ramp for kids.....anyone who thought the vaccine being approved for 5-12 would end it for them was dreaming (just look at the colleges despite the 99% vaccination rates in some).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC boss Walensky says schools should keep mask mandates even if kids are vaccinated
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky said Wednesday that schools should keep mask mandates, even if children are vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


...simple, power and $

...simpler, you're being played.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> I have never been a fan of our "expert" class and political leaders.
> 
> The past 2 yrs has reinforced my perception of them. They are for the most part worthless and do far more harm than good.


...I repeat 

...simple, power and $

...simpler, you're being played.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> The administration is doing a big rollout to get the 5-12 vaccinated, which they should do to be prepared.  However, I don't think there is going to be a big demand for vaccinating this group and still requiring masks isn't going to help that cause.


...and again

...simple, power and $

...simpler, you're being played.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*More funny Memes......lol   



*


----------



## met61

... maskless politicians, elites, and celebrities are having and attending large indoor gatherings, birthday parties, big donor fundraising events, Hollywood awards shows, traveling on airlines, caught dawning masks only when cameras show up...and on and on and on...

...yet we allow our kids to be placed in physical and mental jeopardy through forced indoor and outdoor mask wearing at school.

...but shut up and obey your betters!
________________________________


----------



## crush

At first they came out with lottery tickets, free combo burgers & fires, cash prizes to win and so much more.  Some companies gave you $75 if you got jabbed or two days off and pay but must be jabbed.  Today, if you dont do as told & obey, you lose your job and income.  Talk about using someone.


----------



## Brav520

met61 said:


> ... maskless politicians, elites, and celebrities are having and attending large indoor gatherings, birthday parties, big donor fundraising events, Hollywood awards shows, traveling on airlines, caught dawning masks only when cameras show up...and on and on and on...
> 
> ...yet we allow our kids to be placed in physical and mental jeopardy through forced indoor and outdoor mask wearing at school.
> 
> ...but shut up and obey your betters!
> ________________________________
> View attachment 11917


Story of the pandemic . The people screaming the loudest about the pandemic ( and in charge of setting policy )aren’t worried about Covid themselves


----------



## Grace T.

It looks like the restaurant reckoning is continuing given that year end leases are being negotiated right now.  My favorite Chinese, our local Indian, and the local LGBTQ friendly place all closing.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It looks like the restaurant reckoning is continuing given that year end leases are being negotiated right now.  My favorite Chinese, our local Indian, and the local LGBTQ friendly place all closing.


With tight margins in that biz, you cannot afford to be turning people away. 

So more biz gone, which means more people not working. 

Not good policy when these are the outcomes.


----------



## crush

Dr. Fraud lied under oath about Gain of Function you guys and Grace T.  What is the Gain in all this anyway?  What else was this Science Magician, Bill and their pal Jeffrey truly up to at Wuhan?  Met 61 has been trying to tell us all, "we got played."  This is big time game of life now.  The old rules and goal post got moved from one liar to another.  The old game of lie is all about being deceitful and deceiving your fellow man and then using little children like Mason and force a mask life on them and so much worse.  Soon and very soon this game of life will all be over.  We need about 20% more of the men in America to WTF up and grab some integrity and find their back bone.  Come on men, it's time to be a real man and stand for justice, fairness, honesty and fair play before one's party and job.  Are you willing to give up your party for the truth?  How about your job?  I know, that's a tough pill to swallow.  I know people everyday getting whacked because of what they believe in.  Again, we were sold just lockdown for two weeks and so on and so on, remember?

It started with, "Two weeks to slow the curve."  They ((the experts)) then threw a a fast ball and said, "Mask for a few weeks plus stay 6 feet away."  They also slip in a change up and tell us dont be around each other and have gatherings and be close, where people can talk.
"Close all churches"
"We need mail-in ballots because Divoc AI is spreading and we need to cover our certain loss"
"Mask indoors and outdoors.  No mask no service!!!"  Then we got played with spit balls.....
"Riots and more riots and kneel"

Get Jab=No more mask and no Rona to be scared about and go back to normal we were sold.  I know many grown men who were first in line.
Get Jab and get free lotto tickets, free burger & fries, $75 for jab and make boss happy
Get Jab and get blood clot or Palsy or heart flame
*Best Pal wife is on pace for $450,000 this year selling blood thinner*
Another best pal is on blood thinner still from blood clot
Get Jab two times, plus mask ((sorry, science was wrong))
Get Jab twice, plus mask, plus booster +++++  This is where the rubber meets the road.  WTF up!!!
If no jab, your fired.  I think we all know someone who got fired for saying, "never will I allow something made from Dr. Fraud and his crew to enter my blood vessels."  This is not funny at all you guys.  Now the liars want the kids jabbed and masked for life more boosters for all of you WHO have a "nothing to see here" mindset.  Blind fools and better open your eyes, moo!
Get Jab twice, plus mask, plus boosters forever and now you can mix boosters with one booster to another booster.  Oh joy!!!  This has never been tested but wtf, go for it and be the test.
Mask for little Mason, plus the jabber doo when eligible is cruel.
These liars, cheaters and back stabbers need to go.


----------



## crush

Coming for the kiddos.  You need to be "enthusiastic" about this as well.


----------



## crush

How many of you who believe in the boosters forever are going to do the "mix & match" with the boosters?  I'm honestly curious and that's why I ask.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Dr. Fraud lied under oath about Gain of Function you guys and Grace T.  What is the Gain in all this anyway?  What else was this Science Magician, Bill and their pal Jeffrey truly up to at Wuhan?  Met 61 has been trying to tell us all, "we got played."  This is big time game of life now.  The old rules and goal post got moved from one liar to another.  The old game of lie is all about being deceitful and deceiving your fellow man and then using little children like Mason and force a mask life on them and so much worse.  Soon and very soon this game of life will all be over.  We need about 20% more of the men in America to WTF up and grab some integrity and find their back bone.  Come on men, it's time to be a real man and stand for justice, fairness, honesty and fair play before one's party and job.  Are you willing to give up your party for the truth?  How about your job?  I know, that's a tough pill to swallow.  I know people everyday getting whacked because of what they believe in.  Again, we were sold just lockdown for two weeks and so on and so on, remember?
> 
> It started with, "Two weeks to slow the curve."  They ((the experts)) then threw a a fast ball and said, "Mask for a few weeks plus stay 6 feet away."  They also slip in a change up and tell us dont be around each other and have gatherings and be close, where people can talk.
> "Close all churches"
> "We need mail-in ballots because Divoc AI is spreading and we need to cover our certain loss"
> "Mask indoors and outdoors.  No mask no service!!!"  Then we got played with spit balls.....
> "Riots and more riots and kneel"
> 
> Get Jab=No more mask and no Rona to be scared about and go back to normal we were sold.  I know many grown men who were first in line.
> Get Jab and get free lotto tickets, free burger & fries, $75 for jab and make boss happy
> Get Jab and get blood clot or Palsy or heart flame
> *Best Pal wife is on pace for $450,000 this year selling blood thinner*
> Another best pal is on blood thinner still from blood clot
> Get Jab two times, plus mask ((sorry, science was wrong))
> Get Jab twice, plus mask, plus booster +++++  This is where the rubber meets the road.  WTF up!!!
> If no jab, your fired.  I think we all know someone who got fired for saying, "never will I allow something made from Dr. Fraud and his crew to enter my blood vessels."  This is not funny at all you guys.  Now the liars want the kids jabbed and masked for life more boosters for all of you WHO have a "nothing to see here" mindset.  Blind fools and better open your eyes, moo!
> Get Jab twice, plus mask, plus boosters forever and now you can mix boosters with one booster to another booster.  Oh joy!!!  This has never been tested but wtf, go for it and be the test.
> Mask for little Mason, plus the jabber doo when eligible is cruel.
> These liars, cheaters and back stabbers need to go.


I think your pals wife making all the money selling blood thinners is a hustler.  Rat poison is a cheap excellent blood thinner and has been used for a long time; at least until hustlers like your pals wife got on their paper chase.  Wifey told me recently that coumadin clinics are closing because of the success that your pals wife is having-great job!





__





						Warfarin Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
					

Find patient medical information for warfarin oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## paytoplay

I actually miss the mask mandate and social distancing at soccer games of a few months ago, since we are club hoppers and won’t be needing to get to know any other parents on the current team. Bring em back!


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I think your pals wife making all the money selling blood thinners is a hustler.  Rat poison is a cheap excellent blood thinner and has been used for a long time; at least until hustlers like your pals wife got on their paper chase.  Wifey told me recently that coumadin clinics are closing because of the success that your pals wife is having-great job!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warfarin Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
> 
> 
> Find patient medical information for warfarin oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


I say "pal" for a reason.  I have no friends anymore except my Wife & Yeshua.  Both are 100% my bff's and the only one's who actually get me.  I get her too and we were brought to the earth to help heal it, no doubt about that   It's start with me Dre.  I love me so much now.  I used to love others first and that was dumb and I got hustled for getting played like that.  Today, crush loves crush #1.  I'm now healthy and can now love others like I love myself.  This is Jesus 101 bro.


----------



## crush

paytoplay said:


> I actually miss the mask mandate and social distancing at soccer games of a few months ago, since we are club hoppers and won’t be needing to get to know any other parents on the current team. Bring em back!


Welcome to the club hoppers club.


----------



## Desert Hound

Shouldn't Fauci get fired?

Of course he won't be.

He did lie under oath. Doesn't matter though. That only counts if you are not part of gov. Remember McCabe? Fired for lying to the IG, and providing false testimony? Lost his job, pension, etc? Well a week ago the Biden admin gave him back his pension and gave him 500k to cover his legal expenses. Kind of amazing right?

So Fauci and others lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function research. Will anything happen to him? Probably not.

And yet there still is a large segment out there that tells us to listen to these guys and trust them.



“Fauci testified to Senators at a hearing in May that the NIH ‘has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.'”









						NIH Contradicts Fauci, Admits Funding Gain-of-Function Research at Wuhan Lab
					

The NIH admitted that it did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Fauci said.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## MacDre

Desert Hound said:


> Shouldn't Fauci get fired?
> 
> Of course he won't be.
> 
> He did lie under oath. Doesn't matter though. That only counts if you are not part of gov. Remember McCabe? Fired for lying to the IG, and providing false testimony? Lost his job, pension, etc? Well a week ago the Biden admin gave him back his pension and gave him 500k to cover his legal expenses. Kind of amazing right?
> 
> So Fauci and others lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function research. Will anything happen to him? Probably not.
> 
> And yet there still is a large segment out there that tells us to listen to these guys and trust them.
> 
> View attachment 11923
> 
> “Fauci testified to Senators at a hearing in May that the NIH ‘has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.'”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH Contradicts Fauci, Admits Funding Gain-of-Function Research at Wuhan Lab
> 
> 
> The NIH admitted that it did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Fauci said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


Maybe he made a mistake.  Where’s the evidence that he lied?


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Shouldn't Fauci get fired?
> 
> Of course he won't be.
> 
> He did lie under oath. Doesn't matter though. That only counts if you are not part of gov. Remember McCabe? Fired for lying to the IG, and providing false testimony? Lost his job, pension, etc? Well a week ago the Biden admin gave him back his pension and gave him 500k to cover his legal expenses. Kind of amazing right?
> 
> So Fauci and others lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function research. Will anything happen to him? Probably not.
> 
> And yet there still is a large segment out there that tells us to listen to these guys and trust them.
> 
> View attachment 11923
> 
> “Fauci testified to Senators at a hearing in May that the NIH ‘has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.'”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH Contradicts Fauci, Admits Funding Gain-of-Function Research at Wuhan Lab
> 
> 
> The NIH admitted that it did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Fauci said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


Were dealing with The Father of Lies.  These liars work for THE LIAR and they do what their father tells them to do, which is to lie to cover up the other lies.  When you lie for a living, then you lie all the time, to cover all the other lies.  It's one ugly mess of lies.  We all need to get sick of the liars and then make truthsocial.com a place to go to share the TRUTH.  Q dropped so much last Oct 21st bro.  Go do some research.  Tomorrow is big boom day.  Lot's of freedom of information is coming out soon.  More and more indictments will be unsealed.  Nothing can stop what is going to happen.  Q also said we cant tell people the truth because most people need to "see" the truth.  Doubting Thomas was one such human.  Yeshua rose from the dead and Tom was not having it.  Nope, he said no way and was going to leave the sect.  However, Yeshua did come back and told Thomas to stop doubting.  Soon, all agnostics will have to make a decision.  The atheists' will get a second chance as well to change his or her mind.  Political party and job will mean absolutely nothing after the the truth comes out.  We will ALL ((those who want to stay and help)) be sick to our stomach and will all unite as one.  It had to happen this way.  Much more pain is coming because some men can't let go and take a stand for freedom.  Their trapped in the matrix.


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450947395508858880


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450947395508858880


Dr. Francis quit too.  So many are resigning or dying.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> How many of you who believe in the boosters forever are going to do the "mix & match" with the boosters?  I'm honestly curious and that's why I ask.
> 
> View attachment 11919


I'll likely get the "booster" if my doctor recommends it but one shot at a time. I'll cross that bridge when the time comes.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Shouldn't Fauci get fired?
> 
> Of course he won't be.
> 
> He did lie under oath. Doesn't matter though. That only counts if you are not part of gov. Remember McCabe? Fired for lying to the IG, and providing false testimony? Lost his job, pension, etc? Well a week ago the Biden admin gave him back his pension and gave him 500k to cover his legal expenses. Kind of amazing right?
> 
> So Fauci and others lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function research. Will anything happen to him? Probably not.
> 
> And yet there still is a large segment out there that tells us to listen to these guys and trust them.
> 
> View attachment 11923
> 
> “Fauci testified to Senators at a hearing in May that the NIH ‘has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.'”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH Contradicts Fauci, Admits Funding Gain-of-Function Research at Wuhan Lab
> 
> 
> The NIH admitted that it did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Fauci said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


But he's telling the truth about the other stuff. Again, these guys just can't get out of their own way and then have the audacity to wonder why people don't believe "experts". More fodder for the extremes. Just what we need.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> Maybe he made a mistake.  Where’s the evidence that he lied?


You think the great fauci is slipping in his old age?


----------



## Brav520

He lied during those congressional hearings about gain of function research

but his answers , probably give him legal outs . He was clearly coached

nothing is going happen to Fauci, he is protected

look at McCabe , he got his full retirement benefits back


----------



## Brav520

From a strictly PR standpoint he should be gone , a large portion of the country has simply tuned him out 

No one gives 2 shits about his opinions on whether we should trick or treat or gather for Xmas


----------



## paytoplay

MacDre said:


> Maybe he made a mistake.  Where’s the evidence that he lied?


Nowhere in the letter does it suggest Fauci lied, but it won’t stop the anti-science crowd, or me from posting this:


----------



## Brav520

paytoplay said:


> Nowhere in the letter does it suggest Fauci lied, but it won’t stop the anti-science crowd, or me from posting this:
> View attachment 11925


it’s pretty clear that his testimony was not accurate


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> From a strictly PR standpoint he should be gone , a large portion of the country has simply tuned him out
> 
> No one gives 2 shits about his opinions on whether we should trick or treat or gather for Xmas


Has anyone polled Fauci recently?  Last I saw was back in July.

The pandemic polls have been pretty consistent though moving a few percentage points here and there.  From the beginning to now, public opinion has been divided 1/3 1/3 1/3: 1/3 panicked and generally supported anything to control the pandemic and opposed to returning to normal (though a recent survey found a surprising amount, largely concentrated in the African American and southern communities, that bought into masking but not the vaccines), 1/3 who will go along and generally defer to experts but who are skeptical if things turn too aggressive for the moment, and 1/3 who were skeptical of restrictions (though that group is also somewhat split with only about 10% being hard core antivaccine in all circumstances).  It's that middle 1/3 that controls everything and why we have the results we do: with children generally submitted to harsher measures than adults, lockdowns but not hard core Australian or even European lockdowns that would sink all businesses or close liquor stores, masks because it's just easier and more congenial to go along.  It's also the 1/3 that probably rarely ever ventures into discussions like this (unlike the 2 on the extremes) so they tend to run low information and just defer to the guidance of the experts (unless it really wakes them up because it begins to bite them...if I don't have kids, why do I care if youth sports are restricted, if I don't own a restaurant what do I care if they shut down dining, if I can work for home what do I care about the McDonalds worker forced to mask for their shift, if I'm not old what do I care about catching the virus).

It's also that middle 1/3 which explains why Biden's pandemic handling numbers are down.  They don't really care about the nuances of boosters or the Delta or vaccine mandates.  They just saw Biden say over by July and it's not and are disappointed in his handling of it(vice versa of the Trump situation where he got blamed for not making it go away by summer like he said).


----------



## paytoplay

Grace T. said:


> … They just saw Biden say over by July and it's not and are disappointed in his handling of it(vice versa of the Trump situation where he got blamed for not making it go away by summer like he said).


Yeah. Why won’t this virus go away?


----------



## Brav520

Biden doesn’t fail, he can only be failed


----------



## met61

...wait, what? It appears the vaccine (the new, one month old CDC definition) may not be needed (mandated) for vast amounts of the peasants...

...whew, thankfully your Lords and Betters likely won't lose much power & $$$ as this is probably just a one-off study...well, make that 91 one-off studies... Meh, potato/patato!









						150 Plus Research Studies Affirm Naturally Acquired Immunity to Covid-19: Documented, Linked, and Quoted ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

This follow-up chart is a list of 91 scientific studies and evidence on natural immunity to allow you to draw your own conclusions..




					brownstone.org


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> IKR?  No one dies from Covid.  Well, here are some former shit posters like yourself and recent Herman Cain Award winners from the last 24 hours alone.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc1769
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc59qf
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc2qxz
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc0tsu
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc5326
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbtp9n/orange_is_another_classic_awardee_someone_really/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc58di/a_florida_hca_recipient_who_didnt_listen_to_his/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbr0lk/36_year_old_beloved_snowmobile_ambassador_and/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbohb7/teal_who_i_nominated_two_hours_ago_has_won_her/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc6nja/sr_y_sra_freedom_were_antilockdown_antimask/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qc5tz5/team_prayer_warriors_shrinks_by_one_as_pickles/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbiwaw/this_ends_when_we_all_say_no/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qbly0g/he_worried_about_microchips_but_not_about_his_12/


Sucker


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> Shouldn't Fauci get fired?
> 
> Of course he won't be.
> 
> He did lie under oath. Doesn't matter though. That only counts if you are not part of gov. Remember McCabe? Fired for lying to the IG, and providing false testimony? Lost his job, pension, etc? Well a week ago the Biden admin gave him back his pension and gave him 500k to cover his legal expenses. Kind of amazing right?
> 
> So Fauci and others lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function research. Will anything happen to him? Probably not.
> 
> And yet there still is a large segment out there that tells us to listen to these guys and trust them.
> 
> View attachment 11923
> 
> “Fauci testified to Senators at a hearing in May that the NIH ‘has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.'”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH Contradicts Fauci, Admits Funding Gain-of-Function Research at Wuhan Lab
> 
> 
> The NIH admitted that it did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Fauci said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


...let us once again call upon...

Captain Obvious..."wrong party in power"  and  Baghdad Bob..."nothing to see here, move along"

Democrats and RINO's..."baa baaaaa"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I'd love to fire anti-vax members of Congress, and I'm sure the governor of WA would love to also. Unfortunately, he only has the legal authority to fire state employees. I think you need to go back to elementary school and relearn how the different branches of government work.


Donʻt be afraid.  All that tough guy talk is ….


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Maybe he made a mistake.  Where’s the evidence that he lied?


^
|
|
...baa baaaaa
[case in point]


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> But he's telling the truth about the other stuff. Again, these guys just can't get out of their own way and then have the audacity to wonder why people don't believe "experts". More fodder for the extremes. Just what we need.


...funny who gets identified as "the extremes".


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> You think the great fauci is slipping in his old age?


Nah, but I do think perfection is an unattainable and unreasonable standard for anyone.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...funny who gets identified as "the extremes".


If the population is split into "left" and "right" - as is so often done - there will be an extreme for both. Poor leadership from one side promotes extremism from the other.


----------



## MacDre

Brav520 said:


> it’s pretty clear that his testimony was not accurate


It’s also very clear that inaccurate and lie have different definitions.


----------



## Brav520

MacDre said:


> It’s also very clear that inaccurate and lie have different definitions.


that would be the most generous interpretation possible on Fauci”s testimony


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> If the population is split into "left" and "right" - as is so often done - there will be an extreme for both. Poor leadership from one side promotes extremism from the other.


...such as, turning the FBI on parents voicing concerns to their school boards. Casual and loose "extremism" labeling has serious consequences...tomorrow it may be you.


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> that would be the most generous interpretation possible on Fauci”s testimony


...strictly tribal.


----------



## Brav520

Maybe he was just speaking his truth?


----------



## met61

...wait, what? probably just a one-off white supremacists...err, Trump supporting racist...uuuhh, just f'ing wrong!


----------



## paytoplay

met61 said:


> ...wait, what? probably just a one-off white supremacists...err, Trump supporting racist...uuuhh, just f'ing wrong!


Blah blah blah


----------



## Bruddah IZ

paytoplay said:


> Nowhere in the letter does it suggest Fauci lied, but it won’t stop the anti-science crowd, or me from posting this:
> View attachment 11925


The anti-immune system folks can't be stopped.  Despite the Science.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

paytoplay said:


> Yeah. Why won’t this virus go away?


Because it's only 55 million years old.  Kinda like Grogu.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> Nah, but I do think perfection is an unattainable and unreasonable standard for anyone.


not unreasable that he tell the truth, given his position and influence.  He flat out lied.  He didn't need to be perfect.


----------



## Dominic

met61 said:


> ...wait, what? It appears the vaccine (the new, one month old CDC definition) may not be needed (mandated) for vast amounts of the peasants...
> 
> ...whew, thankfully your Lords and Betters likely won't lose much power & $$$ as this is probably just a one-off study...well, make that 91 one-off studies... Meh, potato/patato!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 150 Plus Research Studies Affirm Naturally Acquired Immunity to Covid-19: Documented, Linked, and Quoted ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> This follow-up chart is a list of 91 scientific studies and evidence on natural immunity to allow you to draw your own conclusions..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


Thanks for that article. I had covid march 2020 and have not caught anything since.

Has anyone brought up money in this thread? Nah they wouldn't do this for the money.


----------



## met61

paytoplay said:


> Blah blah blah


...I hear ya, he's just Surgeon General of the 3rd largest state...oh wait! Ah I see...he's a POC *wink* *wink*... that's right,  lefties are exempt...my bad.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Dominic said:


> Thanks for that article. I had covid march 2020 and have not caught anything since.
> 
> Has anyone brought up money in this thread? Nah they wouldn't do this for the money.


No vax? I had covid for christmas 2020.  No vax, no re-infection.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...such as, turning the FBI on parents voicing concerns to their school boards. Casual and loose "extremism" labeling has serious consequences...tomorrow it may be you.


What I was referring to is a more objective definition based on viewpoints typically associated with differentiating "left" and "right".

What you describe is a strategy to marginalize and stifle dissenting voices - one that backfires if we are lucky. I agree it's easy to ignore these types of behaviors if it isn't personal. Public schools are attempting to wrest power from parents. At its core, that is why we homeschooled our child after 7th grade. Of course, there is a backlash against homeschooling from the elites.









						The Risks of Homeschooling
					

Elizabeth Bartholet highlights risks when parents have 24/7 authoritarian control over their children.




					www.harvardmagazine.com
				




They must really be up in arms after the significant uptick in homeschooling since the pandemic.

Another interesting local story - PAUSD refused to recognize a UC-certified mathematics class completed by one of its students. The family had to sue the district to get the child placed in the next class. One of the school's representatives stated that they had the rules on class placement to "protect children from overbearing parents". Not sure that quote shows in this article as it is behind a paywall.





__





						Families sue school district over math class – Palo Alto Daily Post
					






					padailypost.com


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> What I was referring to is a more objective definition based on viewpoints typically associated with differentiating "left" and "right".
> 
> What you describe is a strategy to marginalize and stifle dissenting voices - one that backfires if we are lucky. I agree it's easy to ignore these types of behaviors if it isn't personal. Public schools are attempting to wrest power from parents. At its core, that is why we homeschooled our child after 7th grade. Of course, there is a backlash against homeschooling from the elites.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Risks of Homeschooling
> 
> 
> Elizabeth Bartholet highlights risks when parents have 24/7 authoritarian control over their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.harvardmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They must really be up in arms after the significant uptick in homeschooling since the pandemic.
> 
> Another interesting local story - PAUSD refused to recognize a UC-certified mathematics class completed by one of its students. The family had to sue the district to get the child placed in the next class. One of the school's representatives stated that they had the rules on class placement to "protect children from overbearing parents". Not sure that quote shows in this article as it is behind a paywall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Families sue school district over math class – Palo Alto Daily Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> padailypost.com


Schools really do not like dealing with kids who are accelerated or delayed in math.  Bringing a slow student up to speed is a ton of work, and not always successful.   Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.

It’s much easier to lie to the parents about what the kid can do.  

This is not just public schools.  Most private schools are equally reluctant to move a kid outside of age group.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.


I can attest this is very true.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Schools really do not like dealing with kids who are accelerated or delayed in math.  Bringing a slow student up to speed is a ton of work, and not always successful.   Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.
> 
> It’s much easier to lie to the parents about what the kid can do.
> 
> This is not just public schools.  Most private schools are equally reluctant to move a kid outside of age group.


Besides the Q from CNN, I have another Math Q.  What numbers are JB displaying over his left EYE?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Schools really do not like dealing with kids who are accelerated or delayed in math.  Bringing a slow student up to speed is a ton of work, and not always successful.   Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.
> 
> It’s much easier to lie to the parents about what the kid can do.
> 
> This is not just public schools.  Most private schools are equally reluctant to move a kid outside of age group.


That's an interesting point. Beyond a certain level of mathematics, I feel that it isn't the school's responsibility to provide a teacher. It is high school. Locally, there appears to be an easy solution with the child taking advanced mathematics classes at the local community college while still enrolled at HS. 

My primary concern with what happened is that a school has the power to refuse to accept a course that fulfills the state's requirements for that course.


----------



## Brav520

^^^
Isn’t that a hate symbol from Joe ?


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> ^^^
> Isn’t that a hate symbol from Joe ?


I have no idea.  I do know that symbolism was their down fall.  33 is a big number for them as well.  Lot's of hidden codes and names like "pizza" and "hot dog" to name just a few.  TGIFF, right?  I think big boom is coming today.  The Hunt for Red October is real.  The hunters are now the hunted.


----------



## paytoplay

crush said:


> I have no idea.  I do know that symbolism was their down fall.  33 is a big number for them as well.  Lot's of hidden codes and names like "pizza" and "hot dog" to name just a few.  TGIFF, right?  I think big boom is coming today.  The Hunt for Red October is real.  The hunters are now the hunted.


It’s Friday night, pizza night, don’t hide it, just divide it, and don’t knock it until you tried it, let me hear you say, hey we want some pizza!


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Schools really do not like dealing with kids who are accelerated or delayed in math.  Bringing a slow student up to speed is a ton of work, and not always successful.   Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.
> 
> It’s much easier to lie to the parents about what the kid can do.
> 
> This is not just public schools.  Most private schools are equally reluctant to move a kid outside of age group.


...actually, it's much easier to lie to parents when they acquiesce to government...you are a perfect case in point.

...today it may not touch you, but tomorrows is a different day.


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> ^^^
> Isn’t that a hate symbol from Joe ?


...Dems are exempt.


----------



## crush

The players will now be played like a fiddle.  This is going to be epic.  Love you all and TGIFF!!!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Schools really do not like dealing with kids who are accelerated or delayed in math.  Bringing a slow student up to speed is a ton of work, and not always successful.   Fast kids are even harder.  By the time they are seniors, you will need to have someone on staff who can teach mid level college classes, and that is expensive.
> 
> It’s much easier to lie to the parents about what the kid can do.
> 
> This is not just public schools.  Most private schools are equally reluctant to move a kid outside of age group.


I can attest this is definitely true of private schools.  The difference though is the secular private schools and many religious schools do have quite a bit of in group differentiation, are generally on an accelerated track anyway vis a vis public schools, and have repeated placement exams to determine appropriate levels. So the kids who might not get moved up are the super brilliant kids who are too accelerated for even the top differentiated honors classes and have iqs in the 170+ range

There are a few reasons the private schools might be reluctant to move kids up.  Those community college classes involve liability for students going there if something happens and that liability is not covered by insurance, there’s the issue of socialization by moving up classes, if there’s just the math class there’s the issue of fitting in an alternate grades class into the existing grades block schedule (which are staggered to allow math teachers to rotate between various grades), and there’s the problem with parents paying a high tuition but not getting what they need on campus.  But they are a business and if a parent pushes hard enough most will accommodate. The issue then is you get a lot of me tooism from kids who aren’t as exceptional and parents who want them to succeed.


----------



## Grace T.

I’m increasingly convinced we are living in a new Puritan age but with the absence of God people have to find a new Puritanism. Prohibition and religion were linked after all.  And it’s not just the masking of the vaccinating.

when kiddo was 5 he was in a karate class and acting up and crying. I went into the class and with the teachers permission removed him…he started to kick and fuss so I took him outside to calm down. A parent follows me out and starts lecturing me about parenting

today was in the park and doggo was acting up. Some guy comes up and starts yelling at me that I have to respect my dog and not correct him.  If dog want to lie down in the middle of the walk who am I to tell dog he must get up and walk. 

seriously what’s up with all the busy bodies…it’s made for the perfect clash in the pandemic empowering these people who think they can tell other people how they should live.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I’m increasingly convinced we are living in a new Puritan age but with the absence of God people have to find a new Puritanism. Prohibition and religion were linked after all.  And it’s not just the masking of the vaccinating.
> 
> when kiddo was 5 he was in a karate class and acting up and crying. I went into the class and with the teachers permission removed him…he started to kick and fuss so I took him outside to calm down. A parent follows me out and starts lecturing me about parenting
> 
> today was in the park and doggo was acting up. Some guy comes up and starts yelling at me that I have to respect my dog and not correct him.  If dog want to lie down in the middle of the walk who am I to tell dog he must get up and walk.
> 
> seriously what’s up with all the busy bodies…it’s made for the perfect clash in the pandemic empowering these people who think they can tell other people how they should live.


Oh my goodness, you just reminded me of my old church days and work days with a know it all lady I worked with who knew my family well and monitored my dd social life.  I got it all from both sides.  I knew a "few" disciples who felt it was their job to snitch and judge, all in one swoop. Someone actually told my wife that my dd was worshiping soccer over God all because she missed one 10am Sunday Service.  Minister even came up to me and wanted to know where my wife and dd were.  First time we skipped service without permission I guess.  This was U9 soccer and first year of club Grace T.  She was playing up because we got told U8 but had no players so my dd and few others got whacked all season.  We also had two boxer, Rome & Paris.  My wife took Rome to Doggie School and was kicked out by the trainer because Rome wouldn;t leave the female dogs alone and would not listen to my wife or the dog whisper lady trainer.  THGIFF Grace T


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I’m increasingly convinced we are living in a new Puritan age but with the absence of God people have to find a new Puritanism. Prohibition and religion were linked after all.  And it’s not just the masking of the vaccinating.
> 
> when kiddo was 5 he was in a karate class and acting up and crying. I went into the class and with the teachers permission removed him…he started to kick and fuss so I took him outside to calm down. A parent follows me out and starts lecturing me about parenting
> 
> today was in the park and doggo was acting up. Some guy comes up and starts yelling at me that I have to respect my dog and not correct him.  If dog want to lie down in the middle of the walk who am I to tell dog he must get up and walk.
> 
> seriously what’s up with all the busy bodies…it’s made for the perfect clash in the pandemic empowering these people who think they can tell other people how they should live.


Where is the line between busybodies and those with genuine mental illness? I'm sure the guy talking to you about the dog needs therapy. I'm equally confident that you were an appropriate person "correct" the other parent.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Where is the line between busybodies and those with genuine mental illness? I'm sure the guy talking to you about the dog needs therapy. I'm equally confident that you were an appropriate person "correct" the other parent.


If so, there's a lot of mental illness out there. The guy even went so far as to threaten me with a taser which he actually set off as a threat (I wasn't worried....I am tall for a gal and a 3rd degree black belt in jujitsu and a 1st brown in tae kwon and am very good about reading people)...guy's wife was nice and diffused the situation.

It does raise the same question as the people are children argument and democracy.  If people are children and mental illness (especially post pandemic) is so wide spread can we really have a functioning democracy?  The problem with not trusting people to govern themselves is that everyone thinks they are right, and that's just a prescription for violence....ultimately within reason we have to trust people to govern themselves and live their lives.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...actually, it's much easier to lie to parents when they acquiesce to government...you are a perfect case in point.
> 
> ...today it may not touch you, but tomorrows is a different day.


In this case, it’s much more about bureaucracy and educational groupthink than government.   Private schools near me are, if anything, more likely to spin some line of BS about how your kid is not actually above/below grade level in math.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It does raise the same question as the people are children argument and democracy.


One of the fundamental problems with democracy (and no there isn't a better system) is that people don't get elected by promising the status quo or a reduction of gov. 

People get elected by promising to fix something, which usually means offering "free" stuff. 

As such there is always pressure to increase spending despite the fact we cannot afford it, it will increase taxes, etc. 

On one hand you will find both dems and repubs agreeing that we cannot fund our current social programs, and in the very next breath they are advocating new social programs.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> If so, there's a lot of mental illness out there. The guy even went so far as to threaten me with a taser which he actually set off as a threat (I wasn't worried....I am tall for a gal and a 3rd degree black belt in jujitsu and a 1st brown in tae kwon and am very good about reading people)...guy's wife was nice and diffused the situation.
> 
> It does raise the same question as the people are children argument and democracy.  If people are children and mental illness (especially post pandemic) is so wide spread can we really have a functioning democracy?  The problem with not trusting people to govern themselves is that everyone thinks they are right, and that's just a prescription for violence....ultimately within reason we have to trust people to govern themselves and live their lives.


And here's the other thing I don't get....why do busy bodies interfere with things like masking, vaccination, parties residences, dogs, how people parent, but then when someone is getting rapped on a subway in New York City or getting mugged on a subway platform, they do nothing?  When virtue and the defense of others actually requires folks to act, they don't do anything?  Don't get it....


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The issue then is you get a lot of me tooism from kids who aren’t as exceptional and parents who want them to succeed.


The me-too problem dies a quick death if you hand the kid a piece of chalk and ask them to work medium hard problems while teach/parent stay silent.   Nothing like watching the kid flail to deflate a parental ego.

Of course, you need to be willing to bump them up if junior turns out to know their stuff.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The me-too problem dies a quick death if you hand the kid a piece of chalk and ask them to work medium hard problems while teach/parent stay silent.   Nothing like watching the kid flail to deflate a parental ego.
> 
> Of course, you need to be willing to bump them up if junior turns out to know their stuff.


In private schools, the answer to that is they'll send the kid to CLC or Kummon and then come back the following semester or after the summer and have them retake the test.  We are, after all, on a soccer forum so we've all seen what some parents will do to push their kids to succeed.  In elementary school, for example (talking 2nd 3rd grade here) my younger had 2 classmates, one whose parents dropped him off at kummon for 4 hours of extra math after school and the other who had the van pick them up and take them to CLC.  And that's in an upper middle class school....kiddos middle school has some very wealthy parents and some of the kids in his honors math class have private tutors every day.  The answer for these parents is "little johnny is falling behind"...let's send him to tutoring.  The shenaningans and pressure behind the ISEE testing is also getting pretty outrageous....the ISEE test prep is where the SATs were a few years ago...I'm just getting to the age where I need to start thinking about SAT test prep and am shuddering to think what that's like.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> when kiddo was 5 he was in a karate class and acting up and crying. I went into the class and with the teachers permission removed him…he started to kick and fuss so I took him outside to calm down. A parent follows me out and starts lecturing me about parenting
> 
> today was in the park and doggo was acting up. Some guy comes up and starts yelling at me that I have to respect my dog and not correct him.  If dog want to lie down in the middle of the walk who am I to tell dog he must get up and walk.
> 
> seriously what’s up with all the busy bodies…it’s made for the perfect clash in the pandemic empowering these people who think they can tell other people how they should live.


It's this whole mentality that "I know what's better with you."  Its an outgrowth of the "nanny state" mentality that is being encouraged by many politicians.  It's taken away the focus from individual accountability and instead follows the "it takes a village" narrative.  You wouldn't need a village if you just took care of your own matters and children.  The pandemic has magnified this with the misguided mentality that it's primarily your responsibility to protect my health.  And now its children's responsibility to protect adults and not vice versa.  It will only become worse as more people look towards the government to provide for their income, health and welfare.

There are some simple concepts that I grew up with that appear to be no longer applicable:

"Mind your own business", or as my Mom used to say "Mind your own beeswax"
"Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me"
"Treat others as you would want to be treated"
"Women and children first"


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> One of the fundamental problems with democracy (and no there isn't a better system) is that people don't get elected by promising the status quo or a reduction of gov.
> 
> People get elected by promising to fix something, which usually means offering "free" stuff.
> 
> As such there is always pressure to increase spending despite the fact we cannot afford it, it will increase taxes, etc.
> 
> On one hand you will find both dems and repubs agreeing that we cannot fund our current social programs, and in the very next breath they are advocating new social programs.


I think this is definitely true of the financial components (it's also one of the few things Congress can still do).  It doesn't explain though the social rule making (whether pandemic response, racial education in the class room, the Covington kid, or issues like LGBTQ and the Chappelle special).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> In private schools, the answer to that is they'll send the kid to CLC or Kummon and then come back the following semester or after the summer and have them retake the test.  We are, after all, on a soccer forum so we've all seen what some parents will do to push their kids to succeed.  In elementary school, for example (talking 2nd 3rd grade here) my younger had 2 classmates, one whose parents dropped him off at kummon for 4 hours of extra math after school and the other who had the van pick them up and take them to CLC.  And that's in an upper middle class school....kiddos middle school has some very wealthy parents and some of the kids in his honors math class have private tutors every day.  The answer for these parents is "little johnny is falling behind"...let's send him to tutoring.  The shenaningans and pressure behind the ISEE testing is also getting pretty outrageous....the ISEE test prep is where the SATs were a few years ago...I'm just getting to the age where I need to start thinking about SAT test prep and am shuddering to think what that's like.


There is also this strange phenomenon going on in public schools to eliminate programs for the high achievers.  You see DeBlasio's plan to get rid of the gifted and talented program.  At my daughter's high school, the new principal (who dresses like a bag lady that just rolled out of bed) tried to eliminate Junior Honor Guard and CSF ("California Scholarship Federation") with the claim it took too much teacher effort.  Apparently, if she can't put any effort in getting dressed in the morning other than sweats and a hoody it must be really overwhelming to support a CSF program for students that put a ton of effort into their school work.  Fortunately, the parents came unglued with the potential elimination of those programs and they were reinstated.  The left's mentality of parents shouldn't have a say in what their kids are taught has yet to reach our community.

Continuing my morning rant, I find a lot of HS teachers to be lazy, particularly the younger ones who are too busy bashing their students on social media to grade papers.  I find it amazing that students are held to a much higher standard than teachers and administrators.  It's another sign that we are living in upside down times.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> And here's the other thing I don't get....why do busy bodies interfere with things like masking, vaccination, parties residences, dogs, how people parent, but then when someone is getting rapped on a subway in New York City or getting mugged on a subway platform, they do nothing?  When virtue and the defense of others actually requires folks to act, they don't do anything?  Don't get it....


Because one is easy. For many it is easy to virtue signal or tell others what to do. 

The other actually requires action. The vast majority of people are unwilling to do that.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> It's this whole mentality that "I know what's better with you." Its an outgrowth of the "nanny state" mentality that is being encouraged by many politicians. It's taken away the focus from individual accountability and instead follows the "it takes a village" narrative.


This^^^

We have created an entirely different mentality or outlook for many/most people.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Because one is easy. For many it is easy to virtue signal or tell others what to do.
> 
> The other actually requires action. The vast majority of people are unwilling to do that.


Guess you are right...well them I'm glad I stood up to dog guy....show these idiots that sometimes if you virtue signal you'll pull off more than you can chew.  Even more humiliating for the guy that his wife and I were perfectly friendly and amicable.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> There is also this strange phenomenon going on in public schools to eliminate programs for the high achievers.


And it is spreading. 

Hey we are not doing a good job with black kids, they are not doing well and not getting into the top programs. Solution? Eliminate the programs for high achievers in order to hide the fact some kids are doing better vs others. 

Completely misguided approach.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

What does it mean if your sars-cov-2 semi-quant total ab a, 01 result is 630 10 months after infection recovery?  Beside positive for SARS-2 anti-bodies.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Did I miss the part about AP classes and whether they are sufficient to meet the needs of those that need to be academically challenged at a relatively higher level?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> And it is spreading.
> 
> Hey we are not doing a good job with black kids, they are not doing well and not getting into the top programs. Solution? Eliminate the programs for high achievers in order to hide the fact some kids are doing better vs others.
> 
> Completely misguided approach.


Yes, let's lower the bar from everyone, "the Race to Mediocrity".  Our public schools do a pretty good job with high achievers but definitely underserve kids that struggle.   Now that's not necessarily the school's fault in all cases, but you would think our schools could walk and chew gum at the same time.  I wouldn't mind seeing trade school options for high school kids where a traditional education might not be productive for them.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> Did I miss the part about AP classes and whether they are sufficient to meet the needs of those that need to be academically challenged at a relatively higher level?


Not at this scale.  When you let them run, it is not uncommon for a 14 or 15 year old to finish both stats and BC calc.  Then what?  Kid can’t drive, but the school doesn’t have anyone who even knows Lin Alg or DE, let alone can teach it.

Watch a U16 MLS-Next game and an AYSO U16 game back to back some time.  That same skill differential exists in academics, too.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not at this scale.  When you let them run, it is not uncommon for a 14 or 15 year old to finish both stats and BC calc.  Then what?  Kid can’t drive, but the school doesn’t have anyone who even knows Lin Alg or DE, let alone can teach it.
> 
> Watch a U16 MLS-Next game and an AYSO U16 game back to back some time.  That same skill differential exists in academics, too.


As with soccer, though, you have the same issue: everyone thinks their kids should be playing MLS-Next (and there are some kids playing MLS-Next that shouldn't be). The nice thing about math in the public schools is that the tests don't lie....as you say with the chalk board, it will eventually show (but it doesn't stop the parents as in soccer with the non stop training from pushing their kids to private tutors, Kumon or CLC).  The real question is can the 14 or 15 year old get there without outside parental intervention (some do, but it's a rarity...in my high school it would have been zero, in my kids elementary school 1 (I'm sure to he was autistic)....in my kids middle school honors class 1).


----------



## Grace T.

Writing is on the wall....looks like they will continue to push the FDA until they can get the booster eligible for everyone and then change the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451586343222452225


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Writing is on the wall....looks like they will continue to push the FDA until they can get the booster eligible for everyone and then change the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451586343222452225


They keep adding more silver to each bullet.  They must be really scared.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> And it is spreading.
> 
> Hey we are not doing a good job with black kids, they are not doing well and not getting into the top programs. Solution? Eliminate the programs for high achievers in order to hide the fact some kids are doing better vs others.
> 
> Completely misguided approach.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I’m increasingly convinced we are living in a new Puritan age but with the absence of God people have to find a new Puritanism. Prohibition and religion were linked after all.  And it’s not just the masking of the vaccinating.
> 
> when kiddo was 5 he was in a karate class and acting up and crying. I went into the class and with the teachers permission removed him…he started to kick and fuss so I took him outside to calm down. A parent follows me out and starts lecturing me about parenting
> 
> today was in the park and doggo was acting up. Some guy comes up and starts yelling at me that I have to respect my dog and not correct him.  If dog want to lie down in the middle of the walk who am I to tell dog he must get up and walk.
> 
> seriously what’s up with all the busy bodies…it’s made for the perfect clash in the pandemic empowering these people who think they can tell other people how they should live.


Sounds like the “conservative” agenda, not that they have the exclusive there, but hypocrisy makes it stick out more.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds like the “conservative” agenda, not that they have the exclusive there, but hypocrisy makes it stick out more.


Meh, I'd be the first to say the right has some problems with it too....I'd also say the left has a bigger problem with it right now since the left leans into the new puritan religion while the right still holds onto the old ones....and I'd say it's a general public virtue signaling problem too....all true at the same time.  If the country does divide, as I'm increasingly thinking it's gone from just a remote fantasy to an actual if far removed possibility, I'd have a real hard time deciding which nightmare side of the line to pick...the tie breaker being that even being Latina and LGBTQ, the few times I've faced overt discrimination and hatred has been from the left than the right....and I've been in the middle of the Sturgis rally in adjacent Deadwood.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As with soccer, though, you have the same issue: everyone thinks their kids should be playing MLS-Next (and there are some kids playing MLS-Next that shouldn't be). The nice thing about math in the public schools is that the tests don't lie....as you say with the chalk board, it will eventually show (but it doesn't stop the parents as in soccer with the non stop training from pushing their kids to private tutors, Kumon or CLC).  The real question is can the 14 or 15 year old get there without outside parental intervention (some do, but it's a rarity...in my high school it would have been zero, in my kids elementary school 1 (I'm sure to he was autistic)....in my kids middle school honors class 1).


How many MLS-Next kids got there without “outside parental intervention”?

Also near zero, I’d bet.    That doesn’t mean it is cheating to pass a ball with your kid.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Writing is on the wall....looks like they will continue to push the FDA until they can get the booster eligible for everyone and then change the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451586343222452225


*FDA Head Says Your Children Will Be Forced to Wear Masks In School, Even After They've Mandated Vaccinations*

I don't care what kinds of physical and psychological dysfunction that all-day masking is inflicting on our children -- just as long as we keep Our Most Precious Resource, our teachers, safe.



> The Biden administration on Wednesday announced its plan to vaccinate children ages 5 to 11 ahead of the FDA�s expected emergency use authorization of the Pfizer vaccine for children in that age range.
> The administration has procured enough vaccine for 28 million children in the age group, which would be given by more than 25,000 pediatric and primary care providers, the White House said. The Department of Health and Human Services would also team up with the Children's Hospital Association to set up at least 100 vaccination clinics to administer the shots.
> In addition, tens of thousands of pharmacies would offer the vaccine, and the administration would work to make the shots available at hundreds of schools and community health centers.


_
"Available" is the new "mandatory."_



> The White House told governors this month to expect to begin vaccinations for the 5-to-11 age group early next month. The administration bought 65 million pediatric doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, enough to give shots to the estimated 28 million children in that age range who would be eligible if the Food and Drug Administration authorizes its use.


_Even as The Regime *prepares to force children to take vaccinations they don't need for a disease that has virtually no chance of harming them*, top CDC Democrat Political Hack *Rachel Wallensky says your children will be forced to wear masks for the "foreseeable future."*

And hopefully-- beyond!_


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Meh, I'd be the first to say the right has some problems with it too....I'd also say the left has a bigger problem with it right now since the left leans into the new puritan religion while the right still holds onto the old ones....and I'd say it's a general public virtue signaling problem too....all true at the same time.  If the country does divide, as I'm increasingly thinking it's gone from just a remote fantasy to an actual if far removed possibility, I'd have a real hard time deciding which nightmare side of the line to pick...the tie breaker being that even being Latina and LGBTQ, the few times I've faced overt discrimination and hatred has been from the left than the right....and I've been in the middle of the Sturgis rally in adjacent Deadwood.


The left has become the new puritans. 

If you look at the various "norms" and "restrictions" being put in place it comes almost entirely from the left. 

- Speech codes? Mainly from the left
- Woke? and the restrictions from that? From the left
- Asking for more gov control over daily decisions? Mainly from the left. 
- Mandate vehicle types (look at CA and national dems) mainly from the left. 
- Look back on covid responses...
And the list goes on. 

You really don't see a lot of proposals coming from the right that want to coerce people through government action. Past decade or 2 these ideas come increasingly from the left. 

It has been interesting (sad) to watch the evolution of the left. In the 60-70s the left was fighting against the man. Today they want the man to enforce their preferred outcomes. 

I personally want to be left alone. If you don't like what I do, it isn't your biz. Much like it isn't my biz how you live your life. Today however a vast segment of the population absolutely wants to dictate what the others say and do. Look at all the people getting the vapors over the latest Chapelle show to see how an increasing large segment of our population wants to restrict/eliminate certain things. In this case Chapelle and his comedy.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The left has become the new puritans.
> 
> If you look at the various "norms" and "restrictions" being put in place it comes almost entirely from the left.
> 
> - Speech codes? Mainly from the left
> - Woke? and the restrictions from that? From the left
> - Asking for more gov control over daily decisions? Mainly from the left.
> - Mandate vehicle types (look at CA and national dems) mainly from the left.
> - Look back on covid responses...
> And the list goes on.
> 
> You really don't see a lot of proposals coming from the right that want to coerce people through government action. Past decade or 2 these ideas come increasingly from the left.
> 
> It has been interesting (sad) to watch the evolution of the left. In the 60-70s the left was fighting against the man. Today they want the man to enforce their preferred outcomes.
> 
> I personally want to be left alone. If you don't like what I do, it isn't your biz. Much like it isn't my biz how you live your life. Today however a vast segment of the population absolutely wants to dictate what the others say and do. Look at all the people getting the vapors over the latest Chapelle show to see how an increasing large segment of our population wants to restrict/eliminate certain things. In this case Chapelle and his comedy.


Whiney little bitch.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> How many MLS-Next kids got there without “outside parental intervention”?
> 
> Also near zero, I’d bet.    That doesn’t mean it is cheating to pass a ball with your kid.


It’s the parental politicking that gets pushy.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How many MLS-Next kids got there without “outside parental intervention”?
> 
> Also near zero, I’d bet.    That doesn’t mean it is cheating to pass a ball with your kid.


As you know, there's quite a difference between pass a ball with your kid to forcing the kid to run laps every morning and trainings they may not want to do (and I say this as a bit of a tiger parent that affords my GK 2 trainings a week on top of the 3 days of team training).

There's also quite a bit of difference between help your kid with their homework and studying for the tests or if they are struggling getting them a tutor v. send your kid to Kumon or CLC for hours after school because your kid needs to be the best in math and needs to do hours of work to get there.

There's also quite a bit of difference between my kid is passionate about soccer, playing the violin or math (hint: except for generally exceptional people in the top 5% of the top 1%, many of whom have special gifts like autism, most children do not want to being hours of math after school) v. this is something you have to do for your own good to get ahead because you need to go to a UC school or Ivy League.


----------



## Grace T.

Scary thread that reflects a lot of other data I'm reading...we are very very close to a complete supply chain collapse...that plus inflation, plus I think people are just really at their breaking points due to the labor shortages and work conditions (e.g., hours, masks, what they are being asked to do), plus the vaccine mandates coming to a head point to winter that could wind up being very dark, particularly if we get a COVID wave (which would be enough to spin the wheels off this entire thing)...Trump maybe in the end should count his blessing and be thankful he wasn't reelected (I certainly wouldn't want to be running things right now).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451543776992845834


----------



## Desert Hound

The History and Mystery of Yemen’s ‘Well of Hell’
					

The first-ever expedition to the bottom of a startling desert sinkhole found wonders—but only natural ones.




					www.atlasobscura.com
				




For something completely different.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Whiney little bitch.


That comment usually comes from those who feel the comments hit a little close to home. 

And based on your posts, you do seem to like gov intervention.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> It's this whole mentality that "I know what's better with you."  Its an outgrowth of the "nanny state" mentality that is being encouraged by many politicians.  It's taken away the focus from individual accountability and instead follows the "it takes a village" narrative.  You wouldn't need a village if you just took care of your own matters and children.  The pandemic has magnified this with the misguided mentality that it's primarily your responsibility to protect my health.  And now its children's responsibility to protect adults and not vice versa.  It will only become worse as more people look towards the government to provide for their income, health and welfare.
> 
> There are some simple concepts that I grew up with that appear to be no longer applicable:
> 
> "Mind your own business", or as my Mom used to say "Mind your own beeswax"
> "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me"
> "Treat others as you would want to be treated"
> "Women and children first"


So if everyone did what you think we'd be better off, is that because you know better?


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Yes, let's lower the bar from everyone, "the Race to Mediocrity".  Our public schools do a pretty good job with high achievers but definitely underserve kids that struggle.   Now that's not necessarily the school's fault in all cases, but you would think our schools could walk and chew gum at the same time.  I wouldn't mind seeing trade school options for high school kids where a traditional education might not be productive for them.


So if they are "underserved", how do you know that "a traditional education might not be productive for them"? I assume you are correlating the underserved and the ones who could/should go the trade route?

BTW, I agree that more people should look at trades, if that way inclined, as you can earn a great living, and a substantially better living than many college educated folk, via that route (without a huge debt load into the bargain).


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> That comment usually comes from those who feel the comments hit a little close to home.
> 
> And based on your posts, you do seem to like gov intervention.


I see you as the guy who takes his turn at the lectern in City Council, School Board, or soccer club BOD meetings and fills his allotted 5 minutes with a nonsensical rant (see above), after which everyone goes back to ignoring him.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Scary thread that reflects a lot of other data I'm reading...we are very very close to a complete supply chain collapse...that plus inflation, plus I think people are just really at their breaking points due to the labor shortages and work conditions (e.g., hours, masks, what they are being asked to do), plus the vaccine mandates coming to a head point to winter that could wind up being very dark, particularly if we get a COVID wave (which would be enough to spin the wheels off this entire thing)...Trump maybe in the end should count his blessing and be thankful he wasn't reelected (I certainly wouldn't want to be running things right now).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451543776992845834


As he points out, regulations are getting in the way of cleaning up the mess.

When you have a major issue, one needs to waive many of the regulations in order to help things get back to normal. Once back to normal put the typical regs in place.

When he is talking about is poor leadership at the local, state and federal level regarding what is happening in and around the ports.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I see you as the guy who takes his turn at the lectern in City Council, School Board, or soccer club BOD meetings and fills his allotted 5 minutes with a nonsensical rant (see above), after which everyone goes back to ignoring him.


The only thing that surprised me about this post and the one before is you didn't say: "link?"

Outside of that you are rambling as you normally do.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The left has become the new puritans.
> 
> If you look at the various "norms" and "restrictions" being put in place it comes almost entirely from the left.
> 
> - Speech codes? Mainly from the left
> - Woke? and the restrictions from that? From the left
> - Asking for more gov control over daily decisions? Mainly from the left.
> - Mandate vehicle types (look at CA and national dems) mainly from the left.
> - Look back on covid responses...
> And the list goes on.
> 
> You really don't see a lot of proposals coming from the right that want to coerce people through government action. Past decade or 2 these ideas come increasingly from the left.
> 
> It has been interesting (sad) to watch the evolution of the left. In the 60-70s the left was fighting against the man. Today they want the man to enforce their preferred outcomes.
> 
> I personally want to be left alone. If you don't like what I do, it isn't your biz. Much like it isn't my biz how you live your life. Today however a vast segment of the population absolutely wants to dictate what the others say and do. Look at all the people getting the vapors over the latest Chapelle show to see how an increasing large segment of our population wants to restrict/eliminate certain things. In this case Chapelle and his comedy.


There are plenty of GOP (the right) governors and legislatives who are flat out doing the same. The voting and abortion legislation are the obviously examples, with the former having nothing to do with making elections "better" and everything to do with staying in power, and the latter being a cultural rallying cry since the 70s that the GOP doesn't actually want repealed (imo).

Both side are equally guilty.

I 100% agree on the sentiment of "it isn't my biz how you live your life".


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> So if they are "underserved", how do you know that "a traditional education might not be productive for them"? I assume you are correlating the underserved and the ones who could/should go the trade route?
> 
> BTW, I agree that more people should look at trades, if that way inclined, as you can earn a great living, and a substantially better living than many college educated folk, via that route (without a huge debt load into the bargain).


The US is one of the few western countries that believe in college for everyone.  Europe specifically tracks people into the arts, academic routes, sports and trades.  It's why the futbol academies exist, and why every one else gets rec in Europe.  The problem with the European system is that the rich and the well connected play by a different set of rules (in a system that is designed to be more blatantly a meritocracy than ours), and minorities which have not been around the system for a while find themselves falling through the cracks unless they are fortunate enough to be ID'd in the imperfect system (which with our racial issues would be a nightmare to implement here).


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> As he points out, regulations are getting in the way of cleaning up the mess.
> 
> When you have a major issue, one needs to waive many of the regulations in order to help things get back to normal. Once back to normal put the typical regs in place.
> 
> When he is talking about is poor leadership at the local, state and federal level regarding what is happening in and around the ports.


While I do give the Trump administration credit for doing a surprisingly decent job of administering the country pre-COVID, I'm not necessarily sure it's safe to assume the Trump admin would have been any more competent when it came to these supply issues, particularly when some of the levers you'd need to pull are controlled by the opposing party which is out to get you.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> The History and Mystery of Yemen’s ‘Well of Hell’
> 
> 
> The first-ever expedition to the bottom of a startling desert sinkhole found wonders—but only natural ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.atlasobscura.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For something completely different.


I must admit, I'm a little disappointed.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> There are plenty of GOP (the right) governors and legislatives who are flat out doing the same. The voting and abortion legislation are the obviously examples, with the former having nothing to do with making elections "better" and everything to do with staying in power, and the latter being a cultural rallying cry since the 70s that the GOP doesn't actually want repealed (imo).
> 
> Both side are equally guilty.
> 
> I 100% agree on the sentiment of "it isn't my biz how you live your life".


Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right. 

The voting issue you are very wrong on. 

The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting. 

- To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is. 
- Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago. 
- Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around. 
- Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this. 
- And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight. 

But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left. 

If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left. 

The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> The US is one of the few western countries that believe in college for everyone.  Europe specifically tracks people into the arts, academic routes, sports and trades.  It's why the futbol academies exist, and why every one else gets rec in Europe.  The problem with the European system is that the rich and the well connected play by a different set of rules (in a system that is designed to be more blatantly a meritocracy than ours), and minorities which have not been around the system for a while find themselves falling through the cracks unless they are fortunate enough to be ID'd in the imperfect system (which with our racial issues would be a nightmare to implement here).


I'm pretty sure the various education related posts on this thread, today, highlight the disparity driven by those with versus those without. Its never the same rules for everyone, when those with money can buy or just influence different outcomes.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> So if everyone did what you think we'd be better off, is that because you know better?


You missed the point entirely.  I will do what's best for my family and you do what you think is best for your family and let the consequences follow.   It's called choice and as long as it not illegal and infringing on your rights it shouldn't be a problem.  I thought the left was pro choice.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure the various education related posts on this thread, today, highlight the disparity driven by those with versus those without. Its never the same rules for everyone, when those with money can buy or just influence different outcomes.



That's always been the case though even with the former Soviet Union.  I'm not aware of an utopia built anywhere on this planet where money and influence haven't been used to get around a purported meritocracy.  The chief difference between Europe and the US, though, is the US believes everyone can be saved through college.  Europe doesn't, but provides a more robust social safety net for those that fail.  Having toured the suburbs around Paris, however, I'm hard pressed to determine which system is actually better.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> So if they are "underserved", how do you know that "a traditional education might not be productive for them"? I assume you are correlating the underserved and the ones who could/should go the trade route?


I don't know that, I was just using trades as an example.  Trades might work for some and not for others.


----------



## whatithink

Th


Desert Hound said:


> Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.
> 
> The voting issue you are very wrong on.
> 
> The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.
> 
> - To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
> - Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
> - Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
> - Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
> - And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.
> 
> But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.
> 
> If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.
> 
> The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?


The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda.  To your first 3 points

Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done. 
Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.
In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The US is one of the few western countries that believe in college for everyone.  Europe specifically tracks people into the arts, academic routes, sports and trades.  It's why the futbol academies exist, and why every one else gets rec in Europe.  The problem with the European system is that the rich and the well connected play by a different set of rules (in a system that is designed to be more blatantly a meritocracy than ours), and minorities which have not been around the system for a while find themselves falling through the cracks unless they are fortunate enough to be ID'd in the imperfect system (which with our racial issues would be a nightmare to implement here).


That is exactly what they do in many of those countries. 

Early on they put kids on certain tracks for their careers.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> That's always been the case though even with the former Soviet Union.  I'm not aware of an utopia built anywhere on this planet where money and influence haven't been used to get around a purported meritocracy.  The chief difference between Europe and the US, though, is the US believes everyone can be saved through college.  Europe doesn't, but provides a more robust social safety net for those that fail.  Having toured the suburbs around Paris, however, I'm hard pressed to determine which system is actually better.


Finnish speeding laws - awesome.

Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket - The Atlantic

For sure, nowhere is a utopia, I wasn't suggesting anywhere is.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> I must admit, I'm a little disappointed.


I was hoping for more as well. But it caught my eye.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds like the “conservative” agenda, not that they have the exclusive there, but hypocrisy makes it stick out more.


Stick it back in.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> You missed the point entirely.  I will do what's best for my family and you do what you think is best for your family and let the consequences follow.   It's called choice and as long as it not illegal and infringing on your rights it shouldn't be a problem.  I thought the left was pro choice.


Not everyone can make the same choices due to any number of things, socio economic being a prevalent one. I agree with the premise that I can do what I think is best for my family, while recognizing that I have different choices available to me than others.


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> Th
> 
> The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda.  To your first 3 points
> 
> Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
> Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
> Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.
> In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.


I have proposed in the past a compromise on the voter ID issue.  Allow everyone who is currently registered to vote as is, but require all new voters to get an acceptable ID.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Th
> 
> The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda.  To your first 3 points
> 
> Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
> Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
> Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.
> In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.


"statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting.  While up until 2020 (I point out 2020 arguendo because it's kind of irrelevant to my point whether wide spread mail voting was secure enough) we could be reasonably certain there wasn't systemic widespread or coordinated voting fraud across the system, we also know that voting irregularities have happened in the past in the United States (there have been periodic convictions for voting fraud, audits have found double votes or dead people voting, and there's been historical incidents such as Illinois and the JFK election).  Given that some elections (whether the house elections determined in 2020 with a margin less than 100 votes, the 2000 Presidential election with Florida decided by less than 1000 votes, or my friend's school board race determined by less than 40 votes) are so close, "statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting fraud.

I like your first two ideas (you can do it when kids have to register for the draft....I personally think women registering is long over due)...your 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting....some facts on the ground could change in the 7 day period....I wouldn't be opposed to a 2 or 3 or even 4 day period including a day over the weekend.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Th
> 
> The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda.  To your first 3 points
> 
> Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
> Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
> Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.
> In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.


I have no issue with those 3 points above. 

And in a national election most of the time the fraud isn't enough to make a change. However small numbers can and do make a difference. 

Case in point FL in 2000. The margin was less than 600 votes. Errors/fraud, etc could turn that one way or another. 

Local races. Usually the turnout is minimal. Vote winners win on margins of 1000s to 100s of votes. A little fraud either way can turn that. 

Many races that have rather large outcomes involve rather small numbers. 

The attitude shouldn't be well the press hasn't talked about it. 

Really want you want is rigorous control of the voting. As in making sure people eligible to vote did vote. 

There is way too much money and power involved in election outcomes to have loose standards on ensuring people are voting legally. 

Verifying an ID should be #1. 

Limiting mail in ballots should be #2. On this there has long been a concern about the integrity of the ballots sent in. And that was before this last election cycle where many 10s of millions more were sent out. 

Also as a side example CA wants or is allowing ballots to come in 10-14 days after the election is over and be counted. If one thinks about that, that is RIPE for abuse, especially when you consider there is little oversight on mail in ballots to begin with. And even without organized effort...hey my candidate lost. You know I am going to send in that ballot now. Not good. Especially when CA is loose on even the date of postage. 

In the end, we should have rather enforceable standards regarding voting.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.
> 
> The voting issue you are very wrong on.
> 
> The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.
> 
> - To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
> - Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
> - Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
> - Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
> - And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.
> 
> But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.
> 
> If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.
> 
> The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?


It's interesting to note that in this long rant about voting the only actual fraud you cited was pulled off by Rs.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> our 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting


I dont like early voting either. Things do change. However 7 days early is close enough.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> It's interesting to note that in this long rant about voting the only actual fraud you cited was pulled off by Rs.


Just shows it happens amigo. 

When power and money are involved you will find either party willing to push the line. That may be on the national level, or could come down to local races.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> I have proposed in the past a compromise on the voter ID issue.  Allow everyone who is currently registered to vote as is, but require all new voters to get an acceptable ID.


Fine as long as the ID is free (no poll tax) and straight forward and convenient to obtain.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> "statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting.  While up until 2020 (I point out 2020 arguendo because it's kind of irrelevant to my point whether wide spread mail voting was secure enough) we could be reasonably certain there wasn't systemic widespread or coordinated voting fraud across the system, we also know that voting irregularities have happened in the past in the United States (there have been periodic convictions for voting fraud, audits have found double votes or dead people voting, and there's been historical incidents such as Illinois and the JFK election).  Given that some elections (whether the house elections determined in 2020 with a margin less than 100 votes, the 2000 Presidential election with Florida decided by less than 1000 votes, or my friend's school board race determined by less than 40 votes) are so close, "statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting fraud.
> 
> I like your first two ideas (you can do it when kids have to register for the draft....I personally think women registering is long over due)...your 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting....some facts on the ground could change in the 7 day period....I wouldn't be opposed to a 2 or 3 or even 4 day period including a day over the weekend.


A lot of states have auto recounts if the margin is small, and I have zero problem with recounts by competent professionals versus, say, the shite show recently in AZ. I get the sparse incidents, but elections in the US are fine. 

It would be better for the country to expand the number voting, ensuring all redistricting is independent and force both political parties to have to move more to the center by making every race competitive. How f-cked up is the system when Congress' approval rating is never close to 50% but the re-election rate is in the high 90s?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I have no issue with those 3 points above.
> 
> And in a national election most of the time the fraud isn't enough to make a change. However small numbers can and do make a difference.
> 
> Case in point FL in 2000. The margin was less than 600 votes. Errors/fraud, etc could turn that one way or another.
> 
> Local races. Usually the turnout is minimal. Vote winners win on margins of 1000s to 100s of votes. A little fraud either way can turn that.
> 
> Many races that have rather large outcomes involve rather small numbers.
> 
> The attitude shouldn't be well the press hasn't talked about it.
> 
> Really want you want is rigorous control of the voting. As in making sure people eligible to vote did vote.
> 
> There is way too much money and power involved in election outcomes to have loose standards on ensuring people are voting legally.
> 
> Verifying an ID should be #1.
> 
> Limiting mail in ballots should be #2. On this there has long been a concern about the integrity of the ballots sent in. And that was before this last election cycle where many 10s of millions more were sent out.
> 
> Also as a side example CA wants or is allowing ballots to come in 10-14 days after the election is over and be counted. If one thinks about that, that is RIPE for abuse, especially when you consider there is little oversight on mail in ballots to begin with. And even without organized effort...hey my candidate lost. You know I am going to send in that ballot now. Not good. Especially when CA is loose on even the date of postage.
> 
> In the end, we should have rather enforceable standards regarding voting.


California law (recently passed to counter DeJoy's messing with the USPS) allows ballots received up to 17 days after the election, providing that they are postmarked no later than Election Day (It used to be 3 days until DeJoy went crazy).  What abuse is RIPE in that?


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> Fine as long as the ID is free (no poll tax) and straight forward and convenient to obtain.


The sad history of voter ID laws in the South bears some looking, such as requiring a free ID to be obtained at a DMV office and then closing selected DMV offices.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I have proposed in the past a compromise on the voter ID issue.  Allow everyone who is currently registered to vote as is, but require all new voters to get an acceptable ID.


Why not have ALL registered voters have to show ID to prove they are who they say they are.

You buy a ticked for a flight but still need to show ID  to board the Airpane?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> I have no issue with those 3 points above.
> 
> And in a national election most of the time the fraud isn't enough to make a change. However small numbers can and do make a difference.
> 
> Case in point FL in 2000. The margin was less than 600 votes. Errors/fraud, etc could turn that one way or another.
> 
> Local races. Usually the turnout is minimal. Vote winners win on margins of 1000s to 100s of votes. A little fraud either way can turn that.
> 
> Many races that have rather large outcomes involve rather small numbers.
> 
> The attitude shouldn't be well the press hasn't talked about it.
> 
> Really want you want is rigorous control of the voting. As in making sure people eligible to vote did vote.
> 
> There is way too much money and power involved in election outcomes to have loose standards on ensuring people are voting legally.
> 
> Verifying an ID should be #1.
> 
> Limiting mail in ballots should be #2. On this there has long been a concern about the integrity of the ballots sent in. And that was before this last election cycle where many 10s of millions more were sent out.
> 
> Also as a side example CA wants or is allowing ballots to come in 10-14 days after the election is over and be counted. If one thinks about that, that is RIPE for abuse, especially when you consider there is little oversight on mail in ballots to begin with. And even without organized effort...hey my candidate lost. You know I am going to send in that ballot now. Not good. Especially when CA is loose on even the date of postage.
> 
> In the end, we should have rather enforceable standards regarding voting.


I love mail-in voting. It take me about an hour to vote - stupid probably. I vote on everything on the card, and there is a crazy amount on the card. I'm looking up judges and water commissioners etc. I could do all this beforehand I suppose, but why bother, as I can just get the card and do it at home.

Auto recounts and checks for close margins should deal with the other.

I do agree that the integrity of the election is paramount, every one - local through national.


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> A lot of states have auto recounts if the margin is small, and I have zero problem with recounts by competent professionals versus, say, the shite show recently in AZ. I get the sparse incidents, but elections in the US are fine.
> 
> It would be better for the country to expand the number voting, ensuring all redistricting is independent and force both political parties to have to move more to the center by making every race competitive. How f-cked up is the system when Congress' approval rating is never close to 50% but the re-election rate is in the high 90s?


The problem with that is the assumption of "both" parties.  Why only 2?  Within a year we could enact laws and Constitutional Amendments that weaken the big parties (and their donors) hold on our politics.  It's not going to happen as long as we have the Dumb and Dumber political system.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> The sad history of voter ID laws in the South bears some looking, such as requiring a free ID to be obtained at a DMV office and then closing selected DMV offices.


Yup, hence my "straight forward & convenient" comment. You can see multiple instances today, never mind looking back, where its clear what the intent is in the number of voting stations, convenience and opening hours.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Why not have ALL registered voters have to show ID to prove they are who they say they are.
> 
> You buy a ticked for a flight but still need to show ID  to board the Airpane?


I'm not opposed to voter ID; I'm opposed to using voter ID as a voter suppression tool.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> The problem with that is the assumption of "both" parties.  Why only 2?  Within a year we could enact laws and Constitutional Amendments that weaken the big parties (and their donors) hold on our politics.  It's not going to happen as long as we have the Dumb and Dumber political system.


I'm not an advocate of the 2 party state or the lack of proportional representation. I also think everyone should be required to vote, like Australia, but accept that I am probably extreme on that one. Money in politics is the biggest problem, both parties are bought and paid for.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> ...well them I'm glad I stood up to dog guy...


How did I know you would?


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Writing is on the wall....looks like they will continue to push the FDA until they can get the booster eligible for everyone and then change the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451586343222452225


43 state wipeout in 2024


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.
> 
> The voting issue you are very wrong on.
> 
> The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.
> 
> - To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
> - Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
> - Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
> - Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
> - And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.
> 
> But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.
> 
> If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.
> 
> The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?


The rate of cheating is ALWAYS correlated to the opportunity to cheat. Going to the poll, showing your ID and voting is by far a better way to reduce the opportunity to cheat than mail-in ballots. If enough people don't believe in our voting system, it will come crashing down one way or another. It doesn't matter who is "right". I believe there is a dangerous underestimation of the importance of "faith" when it comes to our political and economic systems. If faith continues to erode, our problems have only begun.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Not at this scale.  When you let them run, it is not uncommon for a 14 or 15 year old to finish both stats and BC calc.  Then what?  Kid can’t drive, but the school doesn’t have anyone who even knows Lin Alg or DE, let alone can teach it.
> 
> Watch a U16 MLS-Next game and an AYSO U16 game back to back some time.  That same skill differential exists in academics, too.


...intelligence > wisdom = @dad4 

...have the AYSO U16 also referee on weekends...take the time/money saved and earned to teach and implement financial IQ...the 3-4 MLS practice nights a week are replaced with podcasts on investing and books such as Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad"

...college is secondary. Perspective.


----------



## Brav520

Getting harder and harder to cover for Lord Fauci

vanity fair here









						In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan
					

A spokesman for Dr. Fauci says he has been “entirely truthful,” but a new letter belatedly acknowledging the National Institutes of Health’s support for virus-enhancing research adds more heat to the ongoing debate over whether a lab leak could have sparked the pandemic.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## Brav520

Wow

NSBA in a letter tonight apologizes for labeling concerned parents as potentially domestic terrorist, which Garland admitted was the reason he had his DOJ start looking into  them

we found some resistance !


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I see you as the guy who takes his turn at the lectern in City Council, School Board, or soccer club BOD meetings and fills his allotted 5 minutes with a nonsensical rant (see above), after which everyone goes back to ignoring him.


Exactly


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Exactly


What's wrong with passionate people at the lectern?  Potato, Potato, depends right?


----------



## N00B

whatithink said:


> I love mail-in voting.
> 
> I do agree that the integrity of the election is paramount, every one - local through national.


I’m in agreement about loving mai-in voting and election integrity.

If an engaged voter wants to request a mail-in ballot, I’m all for it… just not a fan of mailing ballots that were not requested by said voters.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> How did I know you would?


Errr...there was a split second I sighed and said "do I really want to do this...it's going to be such a pain in the ass"


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> A lot of states have auto recounts if the margin is small, and I have zero problem with recounts by competent professionals versus, say, the shite show recently in AZ. I get the sparse incidents, but elections in the US are fine.
> 
> It would be better for the country to expand the number voting, ensuring all redistricting is independent and force both political parties to have to move more to the center by making every race competitive. How f-cked up is the system when Congress' approval rating is never close to 50% but the re-election rate is in the high 90s?


Your "competent professionals" are volunteers looking at the marks and trying to decide whether an indentation was decided one way or another with two lawyers screaming in their ears. If you actually made them "professionals" they'd be captured just like any other groups pulling a salary.

I actually agree with most of your recommendations but note that with the extreme polarization these days, even supposedly "independent" boards like the Fed, the NLRB, or even the SEC are not really "independent" but are captured by interest groups and parties.  Even supposedly non-partisan school boards are captured by either pro-union or anti-union candidates these days. 

I also don't agree the US is "fine" given the margins several recent races have fallen in...a little fraud is enough to tilt the system....and given now what's going on with the school boards its become even more vital since the margins in those contested elections can be tight (again, my friend lost by less than 40 votes to the union candidate).

These wouldn't be an issue but for the extreme polarization of the country which is pulling the politicians in the two directions...otherwise you wouldn't see the impact that you do in the Senate which has no gerrymandering.  Yet we only have maybe 7 true centrist senators, and of those 7 most of them are captured by special interests (Manchin/Murkowski) and/or are among the worst of the worst when it comes to politicians (Romney).


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> 43 state wipeout in 2024


If the bottom drops out over the winter (and I think at this point there is more of a 1/3 possibility that it happens, more than 50% if we get another COVID freak out), I think the Ds could very well be slaughtered in 2022...they also have until no later than January to pull the Senate and gubernatorial races out....maybe March for the House...afterwards everything gets baked in (due to retirements, money, etc).    The Virginia governors race will be illustrative for how much the anti-Trump California playbook can limit the damage (I also think if the Rs lose this Virginia is going to tear itself apart....it's unsustainable state with confederate flags waiving proudly in the southern part of the state and Arlington being San Francisco blue).

2024 is a long way away.  At the rate of deterioration Biden is going through, I think there's a reasonable chance he doesn't even make it to 2022.  But if he is no longer president, it does give the Ds a chance to reset.  Now they'll have to reset with Kamala (who hasn't even managed to do a good job as Veep in selling herself and makes Selina Meyers look like a political savant, at least so far), but we won't really know until we know and she will have a honeymoon period being the first female president and an African American one to boot.  Who knows, even if she is an awful campaigner she might prove to be good at governance (yeah, I made myself laugh at that but again we don't know what we don't know).

It is a tall order and I stand by the statement that Trump might have done himself a favor by losing.  If nothing changes, we are headed for a wipe out so large it might send the Ds back into the wilderness for decades.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> If the bottom drops out over the winter (and I think at this point there is more of a 1/3 possibility that it happens, more than 50% if we get another COVID freak out), I think the Ds could very well be slaughtered in 2022...they also have until no later than January to pull the Senate and gubernatorial races out....maybe March for the House...afterwards everything gets baked in (due to retirements, money, etc).    The Virginia governors race will be illustrative for how much the anti-Trump California playbook can limit the damage (I also think if the Rs lose this Virginia is going to tear itself apart....it's unsustainable state with confederate flags waiving proudly in the southern part of the state and Arlington being San Francisco blue).
> 
> 2024 is a long way away.  At the rate of deterioration Biden is going through, I think there's a reasonable chance he doesn't even make it to 2022.  But if he is no longer president, it does give the Ds a chance to reset.  Now they'll have to reset with Kamala (who hasn't even managed to do a good job as Veep in selling herself and makes Selina Meyers look like a political savant, at least so far), but we won't really know until we know and she will have a honeymoon period being the first female president and an African American one to boot.  Who knows, even if she is an awful campaigner she might prove to be good at governance (yeah, I made myself laugh at that but again we don't know what we don't know).
> 
> It is a tall order and I stand by the statement that Trump might have done himself a favor by losing.  If nothing changes, we are headed for a wipe out so large it might send the Ds back into the wilderness for decades.


they are going lose midterms , all recent history suggest the president party loses the mid years in first term .. the question is will it be 2010, 2018 type slaughter for Dems . If it was held today they would get demolished

VA is def one to watch , they aren’t having quite the same luck with trying to tie Youngkin to Trump like the Dems did a good job of doing in CA. I still think the Dems eek out the race, state legislature is also up for grabs … even if the Dems win , but it’s close( and it should be) that should sound alarm bells , but it won’t

Kamala is terrible, if she was any  good they’d have her out speaking way more often than she does . The Dems prefer a half alive human in Joe to Kamala , that’s how bad she is . It’s kinda shocking how bad she is at politics

she didn’t even make it to a primary in 2020, and this was with all the institutional backing , and media fawning over her . She was polling 3rd in her own state . Please run her in 2024


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Getting harder and harder to cover for Lord Fauci
> 
> vanity fair here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan
> 
> 
> A spokesman for Dr. Fauci says he has been “entirely truthful,” but a new letter belatedly acknowledging the National Institutes of Health’s support for virus-enhancing research adds more heat to the ongoing debate over whether a lab leak could have sparked the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vanityfair.com


Damn, this doesn't paint a pretty picture.

---

Instead of helping to lead a search for COVID-19’s origins, with the pandemic now firmly in its 19th month, the NIH has circled the wagons, defending its grant system and scientific judgment against a rising tide of questions. “It’s just another chapter in a sad tale of inadequate oversight, disregard for risk, and insensitivity to the importance of transparency,” said Stanford microbiologist Dr. David Relman. “Given all of the sensitivity about this work, it’s difficult to understand why NIH and EcoHealth have still not explained a number of irregularities with the reporting on this grant.”

---

As scientists remain in a stalemate over the pandemic’s origins, another disclosure last month made clear that EcoHealth Alliance, in partnership with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, was aiming to do the kind of research that could accidentally have led to the pandemic. On September 20, a group of internet sleuths calling themselves DRASTIC (short for Decentralized Radical Autonomous Search Team Investigating COVID-19) released a leaked $14 million grant proposal that EcoHealth Alliance had submitted in 2018 to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

It proposed partnering with the Wuhan Institute of Virology and constructing SARS-related bat coronaviruses into which they would insert “human-specific cleavage sites” as a way to “evaluate growth potential” of the pathogens. Perhaps not surprisingly, DARPA rejected the proposal, assessing that it failed to fully address the risks of gain-of-function research.

The leaked grant proposal struck a number of scientists and researchers as significant for one reason. One distinctive segment of SARS-CoV-2’s genetic code is a furin cleavage site that makes the virus more infectious by allowing it to efficiently enter human cells. That is just the feature that EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan Institute of Virology had proposed to engineer in the 2018 grant proposal. “If I applied for funding to paint Central Park purple and was denied, but then a year later we woke up to find Central Park painted purple, I’d be a prime suspect,” said Jamie Metzl, a former executive vice president of the Asia Society, who sits on the World Health Organization’s advisory committee on human genome editing and has been calling for a transparent investigation into COVID-19’s origins.

---

Meanwhile, members of the DRASTIC coalition have continued their research. As one member, Gilles Demaneuf, a data scientist in New Zealand, told Vanity Fair, “I cannot be sure that [COVID-19 originated from] a research-related accident or infection from a sampling trip. But I am 100% sure there was a massive cover-up.”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> What's wrong with passionate people at the lectern?  Potato, Potato, depends right?


Foaming at the mouth, babbling gibberish, drunk at the end of the bar going on about some fantasy in their heads kinda thing (or fantasy some opportunist put there), be my guest, hear’em out . . . meanwhile back in reality there is business to do and all the silly fools insisting they get their 15 minutes just slows down progress.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Foaming at the mouth, babbling gibberish, drunk at the end of the bar going on about some fantasy in their heads kinda thing (or fantasy some opportunist put there), be my guest, hear’em out . . . meanwhile back in reality there is business to do and all the silly fools insisting they get their 15 minutes just slows down progress.


3:15am Husker?  I think we all know who has drinking problem.  Go get some sleep dude and try and be honest for once in your life.  Lying and cheating is not good for one's soul, just saying.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Foaming at the mouth, babbling gibberish, drunk at the end of the bar going on about some fantasy in their heads kinda thing (or fantasy some opportunist put there), be my guest, hear’em out . . . meanwhile back in reality there is business to do and all the silly fools insisting they get their 15 minutes just slows down progress.


----------



## crush

Espola, Husker, Golden Gate, Dad, EOTL, Messy and all the others, "Blah blah blah" to all of you!!!!  It's all about the "Blah."  Thanks for dividing our country with, "Blah Blah and more Blah" you losers, cheaters and liars......Blah!!!!!


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The problem with that is the assumption of "both" parties.  Why only 2?  Within a year we could enact laws and Constitutional Amendments that weaken the big parties (and their donors) hold on our politics.  It's not going to happen as long as we have the Dumb and Dumber political system.


Blah & Blah


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Your "competent professionals" are volunteers looking at the marks and trying to decide whether an indentation was decided one way or another with two lawyers screaming in their ears. If you actually made them "professionals" they'd be captured just like any other groups pulling a salary.
> 
> I actually agree with most of your recommendations but note that with the extreme polarization these days, even supposedly "independent" boards like the Fed, the NLRB, or even the SEC are not really "independent" but are captured by interest groups and parties.  Even supposedly non-partisan school boards are captured by either pro-union or anti-union candidates these days.
> 
> I also don't agree the US is "fine" given the margins several recent races have fallen in...a little fraud is enough to tilt the system....and given now what's going on with the school boards its become even more vital since the margins in those contested elections can be tight (again, my friend lost by less than 40 votes to the union candidate).
> 
> These wouldn't be an issue but for the extreme polarization of the country which is pulling the politicians in the two directions...otherwise you wouldn't see the impact that you do in the Senate which has no gerrymandering.  Yet we only have maybe 7 true centrist senators, and of those 7 most of them are captured by special interests (Manchin/Murkowski) and/or are among the worst of the worst when it comes to politicians (Romney).


Fair enough on the competent profs, but I'll take people who know what they are doing versus the crap in AZ recently, as I mentioned. 

I don't have a problem with close races. In fact, I'd prefer if every race in every state was close. That would be a far better solution and would drive politicians to the center rather than the extremes, as now.

I'd suggest that the Senate is implicitly undemocratic. It was fine when there were 13 colonies and a relatively small number of people, but when a voter in WY has 60 times the power as a voter in CA, that's problematic to me. The counter balance intent of the Senate, as originally setup, has pivoted the other way.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Fair enough on the competent profs, but I'll take people who know what they are doing versus the crap in AZ recently, as I mentioned.
> 
> I don't have a problem with close races. In fact, I'd prefer if every race in every state was close. That would be a far better solution and would drive politicians to the center rather than the extremes, as now.
> 
> I'd suggest that the Senate is implicitly undemocratic. It was fine when there were 13 colonies and a relatively small number of people, but when a voter in WY has 60 times the power as a voter in CA, that's problematic to me. The counter balance intent of the Senate, as originally setup, has pivoted the other way.


The Senate was originally appointed by the states.  It's job in the original Constitution was to act as a representative of the states.  It was supposed to be undemocratic.  It's job was to check the democratic house since democracy does not necessarily equal liberty (see article below). 

The 17th amendment, which grew out of the populist movement of the early 20th century and was passed in 1913, made it directly elected.  That had some consequences, both good and bad.  The good is during the Gilded Age the Senate had become corrupt with mediocre men (no longer of the intellect of men like Webster) who bought their way to the Senate relying heavily on the machine politics which had arisen.  The bad is that the states were supposed to be cosovereign with the federal government under the Constitution and now had no direct representation in that system....that was fine and dandy during WWII when the federal government assumed preeminence for the war and during the emergency of the Great Depression, but the concept of an absolutist federal government hasn't sat well over the years (again, see the current tensions between the Biden admin and Florida over COVID policy, or imagine if Trump had the power to order California and NY to open up during the worst of the pandemic).

I think, if the Great Sorting really is happening and it's not limited to a handful of idealogues like Ben Shapiro, federalism is probably the only thing which saves the Union at this point (if you disagree think of the freak that would happen if Trump actually won reelection in 2024...I didn't think that would happen but I think it's moved to a more than zero probability proposition now).  If so, in order to preserve liberty and the Union, it might be useful to have less democracy in the Senate, not more of it.


----------



## Grace T.

Not just a rant about COVID rules....but places them (and the 9/11 rules) in the historical context of the administrative state...









						The new public health despotism
					

Draconian rules are suppressing our humanity




					unherd.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

whatithink said:


> I'd suggest that the Senate is implicitly undemocratic. It was fine when there were 13 colonies and a relatively small number of people, but when a voter in WY has 60 times the power as a voter in CA, that's problematic to me. The counter balance intent of the Senate, as originally setup, has pivoted the other way.





Grace T. said:


> The Senate was originally appointed by the states.  It's job in the original Constitution was to act as a representative of the states.  It was supposed to be undemocratic.  It's job was to check the democratic house since democracy does not necessarily equal liberty (see article below).
> 
> I think, if the Great Sorting really is happening and it's not limited to a handful of idealogues like Ben Shapiro, federalism is probably the only thing which saves the Union at this point (if you disagree think of the freak that would happen if Trump actually won reelection in 2024...I didn't think that would happen but I think it's moved to a more than zero probability proposition now).  If so, in order to preserve liberty and the Union, it might be useful to have less democracy in the Senate, not more of it.


Better than I could have said it, Grace.

If the concern is the "undemocratic" Senate, move power from the federal level to the state level and it becomes less "problematic" and more democratic as power moves closer to the individual.


----------



## crush

I think it's time everyone has a little talk with Jesus and let each soul be free


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Wow
> 
> NSBA in a letter tonight apologizes for labeling concerned parents as potentially domestic terrorist, which Garland admitted was the reason he had his DOJ start looking into  them
> 
> we found some resistance !


Wow, indeed. See the part below where they consulted with the Biden White House officials on the language to be used? Power is a hell of a drug.









						National School Boards Association Apologizes for Letter Comparing Parents to Terrorists
					

The National School Boards Association has apologized for a letter that called on the Biden administration to investigate whether alleged threats against school-board members constituted domestic terrorism.




					www.yahoo.com
				




“As you all know, there has been extensive media and other attention recently around our letter to President Biden regarding threats and acts of violence against school board members,” the memorandum states. “On behalf of NSBA, we regret and apologize for this letter. . . . There was no justification for some of the language included in this letter.”

The apology comes after emails obtained by the nonprofit Parents Defending Education, first reported by the Free Beacon, showed that the NSBA consulted with White House officials on language to be used in the September 29 letter.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wow, indeed. See the part below where they consulted with the Biden White House officials on the language to be used? Power is a hell of a drug.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National School Boards Association Apologizes for Letter Comparing Parents to Terrorists
> 
> 
> The National School Boards Association has apologized for a letter that called on the Biden administration to investigate whether alleged threats against school-board members constituted domestic terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “As you all know, there has been extensive media and other attention recently around our letter to President Biden regarding threats and acts of violence against school board members,” the memorandum states. “On behalf of NSBA, we regret and apologize for this letter. . . . There was no justification for some of the language included in this letter.”
> 
> The apology comes after emails obtained by the nonprofit Parents Defending Education, first reported by the Free Beacon, showed that the NSBA consulted with White House officials on language to be used in the September 29 letter.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Fair enough on the competent profs, but I'll take people who know what they are doing versus the crap in AZ recently, as I mentioned.
> 
> I don't have a problem with close races. In fact, I'd prefer if every race in every state was close. That would be a far better solution and would drive politicians to the center rather than the extremes, as now.
> 
> I'd suggest that the Senate is implicitly undemocratic. It was fine when there were 13 colonies and a relatively small number of people, but when a voter in WY has 60 times the power as a voter in CA, that's problematic to me. The counter balance intent of the Senate, as originally setup, has pivoted the other way.


If we didn't have a senate, the larger states would run rough shod over the smaller states.

The reason why we have a senate today is maybe even more important than before.

The 17th amendment did more harm than good.

Now the senate is less responsive to their state which has in turn helped the fed gov grow.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> It was fine when there were 13 colonies and a relatively small number of people, but when a voter in WY has 60 times the power as a voter in CA, that's problematic to me.


Fair point, but the alternative is to effectively have LA and NYC determine our president.  There is no perfect solution, but I prefer the electoral college.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Better than I could have said it, Grace.
> 
> If the concern is the "undemocratic" Senate, move power from the federal level to the state level and it becomes less "problematic" and more democratic as power moves closer to the individual.


...the bigger the government the smaller the citizen...and vice versa.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wow, indeed. See the part below where they consulted with the Biden White House officials on the language to be used? Power is a hell of a drug.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National School Boards Association Apologizes for Letter Comparing Parents to Terrorists
> 
> 
> The National School Boards Association has apologized for a letter that called on the Biden administration to investigate whether alleged threats against school-board members constituted domestic terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “As you all know, there has been extensive media and other attention recently around our letter to President Biden regarding threats and acts of violence against school board members,” the memorandum states. “On behalf of NSBA, we regret and apologize for this letter. . . . There was no justification for some of the language included in this letter.”
> 
> The apology comes after emails obtained by the nonprofit Parents Defending Education, first reported by the Free Beacon, showed that the NSBA consulted with White House officials on language to be used in the September 29 letter.


...replace Biden with Trump and image the responses/coverage.


----------



## Desert Hound

I wonder what happens when they pass a higher min wage?  Bulluer?

THE AUTOMATION OF McJOBS: I just saw these statistics on Wikipedia: In 2013, McDonald’s had 35,429 locations, a net income of $5,586 million and 440,000 employees. In 2019, it had 38,695 locations (more locations!), a net income of $6025 million (more profit!), and 205,000 employees (less than half as many employees!).


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Foaming at the mouth, babbling gibberish, drunk at the end of the bar going on about some fantasy in their heads kinda thing (or fantasy some opportunist put there), be my guest, hear’em out . . . meanwhile back in reality there is business to do and all the silly fools insisting they get their 15 minutes just slows down progress.


Who's talking about being drunk?  Discourse should be allowed.  Your opinion (and our government's opinion) about something shouldn't stand in the way of a US citizen communicating their displeasure about something their local government, club, is doing.  You can label it what you want. 

I take it your fine with the DOJ contemplating investigating  parents in VA as domestic terrorists? What is the DOJ and the local government/board in VA scared of?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Who's talking about being drunk?  Discourse should be allowed.  Your opinion (and our government's opinion) about something shouldn't stand in the way of a US citizen communicating their displeasure about something their local government, club, is doing.  You can label it what you want.
> 
> I take it your fine with the DOJ labeling parents in VA as domestic terrorists? What is the DOJ and the local government/board in VA scared of?


What are they scared of?  Let's ignore the intentional disruption of meetings and start with the death threats.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What are they scared of?  Let's ignore the intentional disruption of meetings and start with the death threats.


I'm fine with the disruption of meetings.  Death threats are not good.  Labeling them as domestic terrorists...dumb..


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> I'm fine with the disruption of meetings.  Death threats are not good.  Labeling them as domestic terrorists...dumb..



the left sees no difference between an actual terrorist and someone speaking against CRT at a school board meeting . It’s all the same to them


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'm fine with the disruption of meetings.  Death threats are not good.  Labeling them as domestic terrorists...dumb..


What would a "domestic terrorist" do that is worse than that?  Actually kill someone?  Would you be satisfied then?  Or will you be "fine" with that?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> the left sees no difference between an actual terrorist and someone speaking against CRT at a school board meeting . It’s all the same to them


Speaking out is one thing.  Causing the meeting to be canceled because of criminal behavior is not.

And, in your opinion, what is CRT?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Speaking out is one thing.  Causing the meeting to be canceled because of criminal behavior is not.
> 
> And, in your opinion, what is CRT?


well it’s pretty broad now , it’s under the guise of diversity and inclusion now

Why is the anti CRT message winning , considering every lever of power is controlled by the left ( at federal level) , all cultural institutions controlled by the left, and they are all pushing for this?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> well it’s pretty broad now , it’s under the guise of diversity and inclusion now
> 
> Why is the anti CRT message winning , considering every lever of power is controlled by the left ( at federal level) , all cultural institutions controlled by the left, and they are all pushing for this?


Winning?  The "anti-CRT" zealots are proving themselves to be idiots, perhaps because of non-answers like yours above.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What would a "domestic terrorist" do that is worse than that?  Actually kill someone?  Would you be satisfied then?  Or will you be "fine" with that?


What do you even mean?  Killing someone would be murder...making you a murderer.  Being upset and showing emotion at a school board meeting is not being a terrorist.  Threatening to kill some should be handled accordingly, by local law enforcement.  People need to quit being drama snowflakes.   Where was all of the namecalling last year when cities where on fire?  Funny right. 

School board meetings have forever been contentious.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Speaking out is one thing.  Causing the meeting to be canceled because of criminal behavior is not.
> 
> And, in your opinion, what is CRT?


oh gawd, here we go.  What is CRT...


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Winning?  The "anti-CRT" zealots are proving themselves to be idiots, perhaps because of non-answers like yours above.


What are you thoughts on the comments by Condeleeza Rice recently?  Is she a zealot domestic terrorist based on her opinion?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> What do you even mean?  Killing someone would be murder...making you a murderer.  Being upset and showing emotion at a school board meeting is not being a terrorist.  Threatening to kill some should be handled accordingly, by local law enforcement.  People need to quit being drama snowflakes.   Where was all of the namecalling last year when cities where on fire?  Funny right.
> 
> School board meetings have forever been contentious.


I have seen people have strong opinions, but not attempt to disrupt the meetings.  I spoke pretty harshly about an assistant superintendent once at a school board meeting.  The Board denied what he had wanted to do (impose fees on youth sports use of schools fields) but eventually promoted him as the next Superintendent.  Then they had to fire him a couple of years later because of expense account thefts.  They should have listened to me.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> oh gawd, here we go.  What is CRT...


What's your answer?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Winning?  The "anti-CRT" zealots are proving themselves to be idiots, perhaps because of non-answers like yours above.


the anti-crt message is winning because that side mobilized a lot more people against it than the other   side pushing for CRT , it’s that simple . It’s called politics

oh, and a lot of parents have kids in public schools


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What's your answer?


Looking for another rabbit hole? Cuz that’s all you’ll get.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> the anti-crt message is winning because that side mobilized a lot more people against it than the other   side pushing for CRT , it’s that simple . It’s called politics
> 
> oh, and a lot of parents have kids in public schools


Who is “pushing for CRT”?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who is “pushing for CRT”?


haha

you people can’t make up your mind. It’s not being taught , actually CRT is a good thing

keep calling parents idiots and domestic terrorist


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What's your answer?


go ask a culture warrior. It's easy to look up.  CRT has been hijacked by both sides.  Most who even utter the letters don't know what it means.  I'll let narrow minded would be intellects explain.  Some dumbass early on on some school board heard about CRT and mentioned it, not fully understanding it's purpose for study. 

Bottom line is parents should be involved in their kid's education.  And if their right to do so are  being supressed, then it's ok to disrupt a meeting to get their point across.   The idea that you have to make a white child  feel bad for being white is ridiculous.  Why should a black child be disempowered just because the color of their skin.  Ridiculous.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> the anti-crt message is winning because that side mobilized a lot more people against it than the other   side pushing for CRT , it’s that simple . It’s called politics
> 
> oh, and a lot of parents have kids in public schools


The bulk of the CRT issues I am aware of at school board meetings follow more or less this script:

"We demand you stop teaching CRT to our kids"

"But we're not."


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> haha
> 
> you people can’t make up your mind. It’s not being taught , actually CRT is a good thing
> 
> keep calling parents idiots and domestic terrorist


Don't worry,most have no clue on what CRT actually is.  But it's ok to label parents who are involved in their children's education as idiots and terrorists.  They've truly lost their minds.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> haha
> 
> you people can’t make up your mind. It’s not being taught , actually CRT is a good thing
> 
> keep calling parents idiots and domestic terrorist


CRT is a class taught in law schools and similar educational institutions such as graduate-level sociology classes.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The bulk of the CRT issues I am aware of at school board meetings follow more or less this script:
> 
> "We demand you stop teaching CRT to our kids"
> 
> "But we're not."


Then you are not aware and woefully misinformed about the discussions in VA.  Do a bit more research on what is happening.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> go ask a culture warrior. It's easy to look up.  CRT has been hijacked by both sides.  Most who even utter the letters don't know what it means.  I'll let narrow minded would be intellects explain.  Some dumbass early on on some school board heard about CRT and mentioned it, not fully understanding it's purpose for study.
> 
> Bottom line is parents should be involved in their kid's education.  And if their right to do so are  being supressed, then it's ok to disrupt a meeting to get their point across.   The idea that you have to make a white child  feel bad for being white is ridiculous.  Why should a black child be disempowered just because the color of their skin.  Ridiculous.


I agree that parents should be involved in their  children's educations, both at home and in the schools.  I don't think that extends to shouting lies and threats at school board meetings.

The meme "Make a white child feel bad for being white" is a creation of wingnuts to the right of Fox News.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> CRT is a class taught in law schools and similar educational institutions such as graduate-level sociology classes.


Sure is . I’m well aware elementary school students aren’t being taught college level classes 

CRT has been high jacked to essentially mean wokeness


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Then you are not aware and woefully misinformed about the discussions in VA.  Do a bit more research on what is happening.


Here is a typical query and response, this  from Virginia Beach schools --

*Q: Are you teaching Critical Race Theory (CRT) in any of your professional development or curriculum?
A:* No. The American Bar Association emphasizes that CRT is not "a diversity and inclusion 'training' but a practice of interrogating race and racism in society that emerged in the legal academy and spread to other fields of scholarship." CRT is not part of the work at VBCPS. 





__





						FAQ
					






					www.vbschools.com


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Sure is . I’m well aware elementary school students aren’t being taught college level classes
> 
> CRT has been high jacked to essentially mean wokeness


I guess two terms stripped of their meanings can be seen as being equal.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I guess two terms stripped of their meanings can be seen as being equal.


correct it’s a tatic the right took from the left , re defining what words and terms mean

its effective ,

At the end of the day this is about politics , and the left is losing here

labeling everyone who disagrees with leftist ideology as right wing nut jobs has a resistance point , parents across all different backgrounds care about their child’s education


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> correct it’s a tatic the right took from the left , re defining what words and terms mean
> 
> its effective ,
> 
> At the end of the day this is about politics , and the left is losing here
> 
> labeling everyone who disagrees with leftist ideology as right wing nut jobs has a resistance point , parents across all different backgrounds care about their child’s education


You're babbling.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> You're babbling.


Why do you give up so easily all the time in here ?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Why do you give up so easily all the time in here ?


You were reduced to mumbling nonsense.  So who gave up?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> go ask a culture warrior. It's easy to look up.  CRT has been hijacked by both sides.  Most who even utter the letters don't know what it means.  I'll let narrow minded would be intellects explain.  Some dumbass early on on some school board heard about CRT and mentioned it, not fully understanding it's purpose for study.
> 
> Bottom line is parents should be involved in their kid's education.  And if their right to do so are  being supressed, then it's ok to disrupt a meeting to get their point across.   The idea that you have to make a white child  feel bad for being white is ridiculous.  Why should a black child be disempowered just because the color of their skin.  Ridiculous.


CRT isn’t being taught in grade school so what is the issue?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> haha
> 
> you people can’t make up your mind. It’s not being taught , actually CRT is a good thing
> 
> keep calling parents idiots and domestic terrorist


People who can’t listen nor comprehend are idiots. People who threaten teachers and school board members could be domestic terrorist.
Being upset over something that isn’t happening is lunacy, but that is how the opportunist gain power.


----------



## Brav520

Here is what you 2 don’t understand , and why Espola has decided to take his ball and go home 

if you are arguing that CRT isn’t being taught in schools , you’ve already lost

the question should be, why have so many Americans lost so much faith in the public school system since Covid ?

So much so that a solid blue state that Biden won by 10 pts is in danger of going to a R one year later , based almost solely on education of children.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> What's your answer?


...what is answer?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> Here is what you 2 don’t understand , and why Espola has decided to take his ball and go home
> 
> if you are arguing that CRT isn’t being taught in schools , you’ve already lost
> 
> the question should be, why have so many Americans lost so much faith in the public school system since Covid ?
> 
> So much so that a solid blue state that Biden won by 10 pts is in danger of going to a R one year later , based almost solely on education of children.


Your belief in what you are told doesn’t prove it’s validity.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> The bulk of the CRT issues I am aware of at school board meetings follow more or less this script:
> 
> "We demand you stop teaching CRT to our kids"
> 
> "But we're not."


...what is bulk?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> The bulk of the CRT issues I am aware of at school board meetings follow more or less this script:
> 
> "We demand you stop teaching CRT to our kids"
> 
> "But we're not."


...define more or less?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Here is what you 2 don’t understand , and why Espola has decided to take his ball and go home
> 
> if you are arguing that CRT isn’t being taught in schools , you’ve already lost
> 
> the question should be, why have so many Americans lost so much faith in the public school system since Covid ?
> 
> So much so that a solid blue state that Biden won by 10 pts is in danger of going to a R one year later , based almost solely on education of children.


Where is CRT being taught in public schools below the college-graduate level?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> I agree that parents should be involved in their  children's educations, both at home and in the schools.  I don't think that extends to shouting lies and threats at school board meetings.
> 
> The meme "Make a white child feel bad for being white" is a creation of wingnuts to the right of Fox News.


...lies, link?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Where is CRT being taught in public schools below the college-graduate level?


...you know what's being taught in public schools, link?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Where is CRT being taught in public schools below the college-graduate level?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Jesus , banging my head against the wall
> 
> CRT is a catch all for left wokeness
> 
> of Course a college level class isn’t being taught in any elementary school


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> CRT is a class taught in law schools and similar educational institutions such as graduate-level sociology classes.


RIP Professor Wingate








						Clarence's Memorial
					

View Clarence's Tribute to Share a Memory and Photos.




					www.mykeeper.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I agree that parents should be involved in their  children's educations, both at home and in the schools.  I don't think that extends to shouting lies and threats at school board meetings.
> 
> The meme *"Make a white child feel bad for being white" is a creation of wingnuts to the right of Fox News.*


Your life  is guided by partisan ideolgoy.  I don't  know what lies you think they are shouting.  The threats should be handled accordingly, by local law enforcement.  I have close friends who live in that area, who are liberal in thought and practice.  They are fed up with what's happening in VA  education and are active participants in these rather loud and boisterous meetings.  Look in your rolodex and see if you know anyone with school age children who live in that part of the country.  It's been building for years.  The straw that broke the camel's back is the Diverse Classroom Initiative.  Look it up.  It's rather disgusting in application.    That's really the heart of the matter in Loudon country.  CRT i something that the media has clung to.  It has more street cred and is more applicable to DC political agendas.  The real debate in VA goes well beyond CRT.

You are entitled to your opinion   I don't consume my news via mainstream stream media.  You can put your head in the sand and not admit that CRT has been used as a guise for other to push forward  agendas.  Your snide comment is out of touch with reality.  It's not a meme and it's an insult to many, many  successful black families in that part of the country who are 100% opposed to messaging from their school district.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Where is CRT being taught in public schools below the college-graduate level?


Any school teaching Kendi is teaching an explicitly racist curriculum.   That covers quite a few high school DEI programs.

Kendi teaches that ethnic group A is often racist but ethnic group B is never racist.  If you can't see how offensive that is, try replacing the word "racist" by any other insult.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> Your life  is guided by partisan ideolgoy.  I don't  know what lies you think they are shouting.  The threats should be handled accordingly, by local law enforcement.  I have close friends who live in that area, who are liberal in thought and practice.  They are fed up with what's happening in VA  education and are active participants in these rather loud and boisterous meetings.  Look in your rolodex and see if you know anyone with school age children who live in that part of the country.  It's been building for years.  The straw that broke the camel's back is the Diverse Classroom Initiative.  Look it up.  It's rather disgusting in application.    That's really the heart of the matter in Loudon country.  CRT i something that the media has clung to.  It has more street cred and is more applicable to DC political agendas.  The real debate in VA goes well beyond CRT.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion   I don't consume my news via mainstream stream media.  You can put your head in the sand and not admit that CRT has been used as a guise for other to push forward  agendas.  Your snide comment is out of touch with reality.  It's not a meme and it's an insult to many, many  successful black families in that part of the country who are 100% opposed to messaging from their school district.


VB is a conservative military town.  I also have lots of black family in VB not opposed to CRT.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> CRT isn’t being taught in grade school so what is the issue?


Try and keep up.  I've never said CRT is being taught in grade school.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Any school teaching Kendi is teaching an explicitly racist curriculum.   That covers quite a few high school DEI programs.
> 
> Kendi teaches that ethnic group A is often racist but ethnic group B is never racist.  If you can't see how offensive that is, try replacing the word "racist" by any other insult.


Dude, stop the bullshit.  Racism is about power.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> People who can’t listen nor comprehend are idiots. People who threaten teachers and school board members could be domestic terrorist.
> Being upset over something that isn’t happening is lunacy, but that is how the opportunist gain power.


im very jealous of the left, they always  play to win they never ever give up. They also have politicians that fight hard for them 

it also helps that their constituents live in an echo chamber


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> VB is a conservative military town.  I also have lots of black family in VB not opposed to CRT.


...Loudon County nowhere near VB, military is 30%+ minorities... what's your point?


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> im very jealous of the left, they always  play to win they never ever give up. They also have politicians that fight hard for them
> 
> it also helps that their constituents live in an echo chamber


...in an alternate universe.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...Loudon County nowhere near VB, military is 30%+ minorities... what's your point?


Loudon County has lots of conservatives from the State Department.

Most minorities in the military are enlisted and powerless.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Dude, stop the bullshit.  Racism is about power.


...individual racism exists in all races...no matter how hard you try, institutional racism in this country does not exist...do better.


----------



## Brav520

yeah sure sounds like MAGA country 

Though the country was still awaiting the final outcome of the presidential election early Thursday, Democratic nominee Joe Biden had easily won Loudoun County with 61 percent over the vote compared to Republican President Donald J. Trump’s 37 percent.


----------



## MacDre

Brav520 said:


> yeah sure sounds like MAGA country
> 
> Though the country was still awaiting the final outcome of the presidential election early Thursday, Democratic nominee Joe Biden had easily won Loudoun County with 61 percent over the vote compared to Republican President Donald J. Trump’s 37 percent.


That 37% is substantial and many of them work for the State Department.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Dude, stop the bullshit.  Racism is about power.


Does a man planning a church bombing cease to be racist the minute he gets arrested?

He loses most of his power when he gets arrested.  But that doesn't change his character at all.  The hate in his heart is still there.  After the arrest, he is still a racist, just a powerless one.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...individual racism exists in all races...no matter how hard you try, institutional racism in this country does not exist...do better.


I’ll agree that assholes exist in all races.  Power is a necessary component to being a racist.  So, in the US white males are the racist because they have power.  The others races are simply venting and in some cases acting like asses.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Does a man planning a church bombing cease to be racist the minute he gets arrested?
> 
> He loses most of his power when he gets arrested.  But that doesn't change his character at all.  The hate in his heart is still there.  After the arrest, he is still a racist, just a powerless one.


If you compare a similarly situated black, Asian, or Mexican, the white guy has more power and is treated better by the system.

Also, what legitimate reason does a white man have to hate minorities historically?  Blacks, Indigenous, and Asians have ample reason to have hate and distrust in their hearts towards colonizers and their descendants that refuse to give up their ill gained privilege.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Try and keep up.  I've never said CRT is being taught in grade school.


That was brought into the thread as an acceptable excuse for disrupting school board meetings.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Any school teaching Kendi is teaching an explicitly racist curriculum.   That covers quite a few high school DEI programs.
> 
> Kendi teaches that ethnic group A is often racist but ethnic group B is never racist.  If you can't see how offensive that is, try replacing the word "racist" by any other insult.


Kendi is a PhD and college professor.  Would you like to try again?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Your life  is guided by partisan ideolgoy.  I don't  know what lies you think they are shouting.  The threats should be handled accordingly, by local law enforcement.  I have close friends who live in that area, who are liberal in thought and practice.  They are fed up with what's happening in VA  education and are active participants in these rather loud and boisterous meetings.  Look in your rolodex and see if you know anyone with school age children who live in that part of the country.  It's been building for years.  The straw that broke the camel's back is the Diverse Classroom Initiative.  Look it up.  It's rather disgusting in application.    That's really the heart of the matter in Loudon country.  CRT i something that the media has clung to.  It has more street cred and is more applicable to DC political agendas.  The real debate in VA goes well beyond CRT.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion   I don't consume my news via mainstream stream media.  You can put your head in the sand and not admit that CRT has been used as a guise for other to push forward  agendas.  Your snide comment is out of touch with reality.  It's not a meme and it's an insult to many, many  successful black families in that part of the country who are 100% opposed to messaging from their school district.


I can see that you lied about me, which makes me suspect the content of the rest of your posr.

What, in your opinion, is Diverse Classroom Intitative?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> That was brought into the thread as an acceptable excuse for disrupting school board meetings.


...define acceptable excuse?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Kendi is a PhD and college professor.  Would you like to try again?


...a professor of what?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> I can see that you lied about me, which makes me suspect the content of the rest of your posr.
> 
> What, in your opinion, is Diverse Classroom Intitative?


... what was the lie?


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> I’ll agree that assholes exist in all races.  Power is a necessary component to being a racist.  So, in the US white males are the racist because they have power.  The others races are simply venting and in some cases acting like asses.


...so, in Atlanta, Baltimore, Philly black males are the racist.

...so, in California democrat males are the racist. In fact, this makes you a racist, racist.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MacDre said:


> RIP Professor Wingate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clarence's Memorial
> 
> 
> View Clarence's Tribute to Share a Memory and Photos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mykeeper.com


Way too young.


----------



## Brav520

met61 said:


> ...define acceptable excuse?


I hope they continue to dismiss the concerns of upset parents across the country


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Try and keep up.  I've never said CRT is being taught in grade school.


So what’s the issue?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> I hope they continue to dismiss the concerns of upset parents across the country


If they are complain about unicorns flying too low should their concerns be taken serious?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> If they are complain about unicorns flying too low should their concerns be taken serious?


2022 and 2024 wipeout


----------



## Brav520

Crime is actually down , defund the police , actually the Rs are for that, the border is a mess  because of Trump, Afghanistan was a success , inflation is transitory, your concerns as parents about the public education system is built on lies, in fact you shouldn’t really have a say in what they are taught

Sounds like a winning message . Good luck !


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...so, in Atlanta, Baltimore, Philly black males are the racist.
> 
> ...so, in California democrat males are the racist. In fact, this makes you a racist, racist.


There are over 19,000 cities, towns, and villages in the United States and you struggled to find 3 with black leadership.  Great job Pal!

I have no power.  I’m just a soccer dad who’s player can’t get an invite to a YNT camp.  If I had power…


----------



## MacDre

Hüsker Dü said:


> Way too young.


I tear up when I think about it.  We were close.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> There are over 19,000 cities, towns, and villages in the United States and you struggled to find 3 with black leadership.  Great job Pal!
> 
> I have no power.  I’m just a soccer dad who’s player can’t get an invite to a YNT camp.  If I had power…


...not sure where you get the rules, but I was unaware I had to name every city, town, and village...figured even the minimally educated would get the point.

...the only struggle I see is your struggle to redefine "racist" to fit your narrative.

...you have power over how to live yours and your players life... it's your choice how to use said power...I pray you choose well.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...not sure where you get the rules, but I was unaware I had to name every city, town, and village...figured even the minimally educated would get the point.
> 
> ...the only struggle I see is your struggle to redefine "racist" to fit your narrative.
> 
> ...you have power over how to live yours and your players life... it's your choice how to use said power...I pray you choose well.


I think putting things into proper context is important.

What’s your definition of racist?


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> I think putting things into proper context is important.
> 
> What’s your definition of racist?


...individuals give opinions...for definitions I go with either Oxford or Webster. How about you?


----------



## espola

Australians are not amused by American commentators calling it a "police state"  because of its rigid covid controls --









						“Australia is a police state” says country where police are 17 times more likely to murder civilians
					

"Police murdering people is so common, each month needs its own Wikipedia entry".




					www.theshovel.com.au
				




Australia has been labelled a “police state” by far-right pundits who live in a country where police murdering people is so common, each month needs its own Wikipedia entry.

The talking heads, all living in the United States – a country where the incarceration rate is four times higher than Australia’s, and where 1 in every 150 citizens is in jail, the highest rate in the world – have criticised Australia’s approach to managing the COVID-19 pandemic, calling it “tyrannical” without even the slightest hint of irony.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...individuals give opinions...for definitions I go with either Oxford or Webster. How about you?


You do realize that those that have been oppressed and persecuted (the powerless) are rightfully pissed off and not prejudice.  Here’s what Oxford says:

rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
 Learn to pronounce
adjective
prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse"
noun
a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
"he has been targeted by vicious racists online"


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> That 37% is substantial and many of them work for the State Department.


State department= conservative, what planet?


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> State department= conservative, what planet?


Yep, lots of former military, the alphabet boys, and secret squirrel types at the State Department.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I can see that you lied about me, which makes me suspect the content of the rest of your posr.
> 
> What, in your opinion, is Diverse Classroom Intitative?


The Diverse Classroom Library initiative is a program launched by the Loudon Country Democratic Comittee in 2019.  As layers have been peeled back, it's become somewhat controverial.  The  content in some of the books for grade schoolers is suspect.  So suspect in fact that when some parents read from the books during a board meeting, the board members had them stop reading because they felt the words were inappropriate.   T

How have I lied about you?  Don't be so sensitive. Don't you frame everything with Trump as the backdrop?  Appearances are very partisan in nature.  Your sidekick is 100% partisan, everythring through a partisan lens.  Humorous at times but leaves little room for intellectual engagement.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> Yep, lots of former military, the alphabet boys, and secret squirrel types at the State Department.


Interesting take.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> I’ll agree that assholes exist in all races.  Power is a necessary component to being a racist.  So, in the US white males are the racist because they have power.  The others races are simply venting and in some cases acting like asses.


So question for you. I’m Latina, female lgbtq and have a disability.   Does that mean I can’t be racist because I’m quadrupley oppressed? Not that I would but what if I say a slur against an African American…is that racist?  If I say it it’s not racist but if a white person says it it is?  How about a slur against an Asian straight male…that racist?  How about against a person of Arabic descent?  What if the Arabic person makes a slur against me…that racist? If I paint a swastika in front of my Jewish neighbors house…is that racist?  My family is South American descent..what if I make a slur against a Mexican person…that racist?  What if the Mexican person is straight?  What if the Mexican person is both straight and male?  If an African American makes a slur against a Native American is that racist? Genuinely curious how this hierarchy thing works in your mind. ^\_(;?)_/^


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So what’s the issue?


Again, gotta keep up


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> So question for you. I’m Latina, female lgbtq and have a disability.   Does that mean I can’t be racist because I’m quadrupley oppressed? Not that I would but what if I say a slur against an African American…is that racist?  If I say it it’s not racist but if a white person says it it is?  How about a slur against an Asian straight male…that racist?  How about against a person of Arabic descent?  What if the Arabic person makes a slur against me…that racist? If I paint a swastika in front of my Jewish neighbors house…is that racist?  My family is South American descent..what if I make a slur against a Mexican person…that racist?  What if the Mexican person is straight?  What if the Mexican person is both straight and male?  If an African American makes a slur against a Native American is that racist? Genuinely curious how this hierarchy thing works in your mind. ^\_(;?)_/^


Ps does it make any difference that My genetic tests have shown that I’m 1/4 Native American….now it’s native South American and native Caribbean indigenous but nevertheless indigenous…or does it only count if it’s indigenous North yAmerican…and why isn’t acknowledging that line on the artificial Mexican border not racist itself…after all my ancestors weren’t driven into reservations in the 19th century but they were practically wiped out by my other ancestors in the 18th???


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> The Diverse Classroom Library initiative is a program launched by the Loudon Country Democratic Comittee in 2019.  As layers have been peeled back, it's become somewhat controverial.  The  content in some of the books for grade schoolers is suspect.  So suspect in fact that when some parents read from the books during a board meeting, the board members had them stop reading because they felt the words were inappropriate.   T
> 
> How have I lied about you?  Don't be so sensitive. Don't you frame everything with Trump as the backdrop?  Appearances are very partisan in nature.  Your sidekick is 100% partisan, everythring through a partisan lens.  Humorous at times but leaves little room for intellectual engagement.


I have been for years generally non-partisan, but the extremes of t's behavior made me a Democrat for a day.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> So question for you. I’m Latina, female lgbtq and have a disability.   Does that mean I can’t be racist because I’m quadrupley oppressed? Not that I would but what if I say a slur against an African American…is that racist?  If I say it it’s not racist but if a white person says it it is?  How about a slur against an Asian straight male…that racist?  How about against a person of Arabic descent?  What if the Arabic person makes a slur against me…that racist? If I paint a swastika in front of my Jewish neighbors house…is that racist?  My family is South American descent..what if I make a slur against a Mexican person…that racist?  What if the Mexican person is straight?  What if the Mexican person is both straight and male?  If an African American makes a slur against a Native American is that racist? Genuinely curious how this hierarchy thing works in your mind. ^\_(;?)_/^


...great point! It appears when one is a victim they get to make up the rules.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> You do realize that those that have been oppressed and persecuted (the powerless) are rightfully pissed off and not prejudice.  Here’s what Oxford says:
> 
> rac·ist
> /ˈrāsəst/
> Learn to pronounce
> adjective
> prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
> "we are investigating complaints about racist abuse"
> noun
> a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
> "he has been targeted by vicious racists online"


...from that, you got this: 

"So, in the US white males are the racist because they have power."

...even more telling, from that... you're the victim?

... I'll close with a famous line from the oppressed and persecuted..."Great job Pal!"


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I can see that you lied about me, which makes me suspect the content of the rest of your posr.
> 
> What, in your opinion, is Diverse Classroom Intitative?


"I can see that you lied about me"

WTF Mary! You sound like a schoolgirl on Instagram - ask wifey for your nuts back for Christ's sake.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> You do realize that those that have been oppressed and persecuted (the powerless) are rightfully pissed off and not prejudice.  Here’s what Oxford says:
> 
> rac·ist
> /ˈrāsəst/
> Learn to pronounce
> adjective
> prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
> "we are investigating complaints about racist abuse"
> noun
> a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
> "he has been targeted by vicious racists online"


Did you notice that no part of your definition mentions the word “power”?   It’s not in there.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> So question for you. I’m Latina, female lgbtq and have a disability.   Does that mean I can’t be racist because I’m quadrupley oppressed? Not that I would but what if I say a slur against an African American…is that racist?  If I say it it’s not racist but if a white person says it it is?  How about a slur against an Asian straight male…that racist?  How about against a person of Arabic descent?  What if the Arabic person makes a slur against me…that racist? If I paint a swastika in front of my Jewish neighbors house…is that racist?  My family is South American descent..what if I make a slur against a Mexican person…that racist?  What if the Mexican person is straight?  What if the Mexican person is both straight and male?  If an African American makes a slur against a Native American is that racist? Genuinely curious how this hierarchy thing works in your mind. ^\_(;?)_/^


This is way too logical and so last decade.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I have been for years generally non-partisan, but the extremes of t's behavior made me a Democrat for a day.


So you're weak and a drama queen; I can see that.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Did you notice that no part of your definition mentions the word “power”?   It’s not in there.


...I'll say it again, when you're a victim you get to make up the rules...or in this case, the definitions.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Ps does it make any difference that My genetic tests have shown that I’m 1/4 Native American….now it’s native South American and native Caribbean indigenous but nevertheless indigenous…or does it only count if it’s indigenous North yAmerican…and why isn’t acknowledging that line on the artificial Mexican border not racist itself…after all my ancestors weren’t driven into reservations in the 19th century but they were practically wiped out by my other ancestors in the 18th???


...this is Brilliant! 

... unfortunately, all this nonsense will twist mine & other multi-racial kids in knots.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> ...I'll say it again, when you're a victim you get to make up the rules...or in this case, the definitions.


Here’s another question for him: so English descended whites used to oppress and treat badly the Irish. Was that racist because it involves power?  And so when did the Irish lose the ability to have people who slurred them be declared racist…with the election of John kennedy?  And if so why didn’t Barak Obama do the same thing for African Americans…is it because he’s mostly African descent post slavery?  Does that mean because the Irish were oppressed they weren’t racist when they turned around and oppressed Italian Americans?  And when exactly did Jewish people lose the ability to have people declared racist against them…as recently as my childhood I remember my Jewish friend had his house toilet papered and a cross burnt on his lawn…racist then but not racist now?


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Here’s another question for him: so English descended whites used to oppress and treat badly the Irish. Was that racist because it involves power?  And so when did the Irish lose the ability to have people who slurred them be declared racist…with the election of John kennedy?  And if so why didn’t Barak Obama do the same thing for African Americans…is it because he’s mostly African descent post slavery?  Does that mean because the Irish were oppressed they weren’t racist when they turned around and oppressed Italian Americans?  And when exactly did Jewish people lose the ability to have people declared racist against them…as recently as my childhood I remember my Jewish friend had his house toilet papered and a cross burnt on his lawn…racist then but not racist now?


...again, Brilliant! You should write a book these...put me down for one of the first signed copies.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> ...again, Brilliant! You should write a book these...put me down for one of the first signed copies.


You know in retrospect when the crazy straight white french male came after me with a taser in the park for training my dog with the Cesar Milan no nonsense method instead of his progressive positivity method, I should have told him he was being racist and mansplaining me and being generally bigoted for daring to complain about how I train my dog.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> So question for you. I’m Latina, female lgbtq and have a disability.   Does that mean I can’t be racist because I’m quadrupley oppressed? Not that I would but what if I say a slur against an African American…is that racist?  If I say it it’s not racist but if a white person says it it is?  How about a slur against an Asian straight male…that racist?  How about against a person of Arabic descent?  What if the Arabic person makes a slur against me…that racist? If I paint a swastika in front of my Jewish neighbors house…is that racist?  My family is South American descent..what if I make a slur against a Mexican person…that racist?  What if the Mexican person is straight?  What if the Mexican person is both straight and male?  If an African American makes a slur against a Native American is that racist? Genuinely curious how this hierarchy thing works in your mind. ^\_(;?)_/^


First, we are talking about racism so I don’t see how your sexual orientation or disability status is relevant.
Second, aren’t you a Chilean of Spanish descent?
Third, You have the definition and are a learned legal scholar so, you will have to weave the facts with the definition.
Fourth, as I mentioned up thread it’s possible to be an ass and not be racist.  Again do the analysis.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Did you notice that no part of your definition mentions the word “power”?   It’s not in there.


Exhibit 1 of a person acting like a jackass.  Can you define marginalized?


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> You know in retrospect when the crazy straight white french male came after me with a taser in the park for training my dog with the Cesar Milan no nonsense method instead of his progressive positivity method, I should have told him he was being racist and mansplaining me and being generally bigoted for daring to complain about how I train my dog.


...hey, you were the victim...your rules. LOL! 

...Goodnight.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> First, we are talking about racism so I don’t see how your sexual orientation or disability status is relevant.
> Second, aren’t you a Chilean of Spanish descent?
> Third, You have the definition and are a learned legal scholar so, you will have to weave the facts with the definition.
> Fourth, as I mentioned up thread it’s possible to be an ass and not be racist.  Again do the analysis.


I am 1/4 Spanish basque, 1/4 mixed Andalusian with some Jewish blood thrown in, 1/4 Peruvian creole, 1/4 indigenous.

I gave you a bunch of facts because I told you I can’t do it. Ok disregard my sex disability or lgbtq status. Tell me how to apply the principles in the various scenarios. Can I not be racist against someone Jewish, African American, Native American, Asian, Arabic or even Mexican descent?

you’re ducking the question.


----------



## crush

I woke to go potty and decided to catch up on the latest Jab news.  Instead, we got race & bait for $100.  I feel picked on.  Im white as can be.  I am Scottish Highlander before I am white though.  Baby Boy Kirk.  My greatest of great grandpas from long ago got his land ripped from him and he took off to North Carolina.  I love all colors of people.  Grace T, please send me a sign copy of your book.  Great stuff and way to debate the boys.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Australians are not amused by American commentators calling it a "police state"  because of its rigid covid controls --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Australia is a police state” says country where police are 17 times more likely to murder civilians
> 
> 
> "Police murdering people is so common, each month needs its own Wikipedia entry".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theshovel.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia has been labelled a “police state” by far-right pundits who live in a country where police murdering people is so common, each month needs its own Wikipedia entry.
> 
> The talking heads, all living in the United States – a country where the incarceration rate is four times higher than Australia’s, and where 1 in every 150 citizens is in jail, the highest rate in the world – have criticised Australia’s approach to managing the COVID-19 pandemic, calling it “tyrannical” without even the slightest hint of irony.


aussies a little sensitive


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Exhibit 1 of a person acting like a jackass.  Can you define marginalized?


Marginalized?  Jackass?   I decline your offer to change the topic.

The point being discussed is that “racism”, by your own definition, has nothing at all do do with power, and everything to do with animosity, prejudice, and antagonism.

Kendi wants to change that definition so that certain ethnic groups are bad and other ethic groups are better.  That is straight up, old school racism which has no place in our schools at any level.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> How have I lied about you?  Don't be so sensitive.


As you can see he was projecting earlier when he called someone a "whiney little bitch".


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> As you can see he was projecting earlier when he called someone a "whiney little bitch".


isn’t using the b word sexist?  Is being sexist somehow less morally wrong than being racist?  

for that matter isn’t macdre telling me that my lgbtq oppression doesn’t really matter as far as power hierarchies are concerned also bigoted?  I’m assuming he is straight and a guy (though I want to be careful about gender assuming so maybe I should refer to him as xhe?)…but shouldn’t I be outraged xhe discounted my lgbtq status (a status for which I’ve experienced far more discrimination than my race)?


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> I woke to go potty and decided to catch up on the latest Jab news.  Instead, we got race & bait for $100.  I feel picked on.  Im white as can be.  I am Scottish Highlander before I am white though.  Baby Boy Kirk.  My greatest of great grandpas from long ago got his land ripped from him and he took off to North Carolina.  I love all colors of people.  Grace T, please send me a sign copy of your book.  Great stuff and way to debate the boys.


Mac Dre has yet to articulate how we differentiate the hierarchy of oppression among people (is it by blood percentage, self declared status, historical grievance….and who out ranks who) or if there even is a hierarchy (can white people be racist against each other…does that mean nonwhites can’t be racist even against each other and have a complete pass) but I have some bad news for you crush while we await macdre s ruling.

As a Scotsman potentially the only people who can be racist against you are those pesky English descendants (most likely dar members)…man I always knew those English were the worst of the worst what with king George and all his what whatting…even the Irish and poles have a leg up on you…sorry bud.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> isn’t using the b word sexist?  Is being sexist somehow less morally wrong than being racist?
> 
> for that matter isn’t macdre telling me that my lgbtq oppression doesn’t really matter as far as power hierarchies are concerned also bigoted?  I’m assuming he is straight and a guy (though I want to be careful about gender assuming so maybe I should refer to him as xhe?)…but shouldn’t I be outraged xhe discounted my lgbtq status (a status for which I’ve experienced far more discrimination than my race)?


... preach sister, preach!

...wait, can I use sister? or do I need to insert a "x" somewhere? damn, sorry...is using "insert" sexist? I give up! ...we need a Rules Committee! I nominate @Grace T. To head the committee... oops, I used "head"... anyway, do I have a 2nd?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Marginalized?  Jackass?   I decline your offer to change the topic.
> 
> The point being discussed is that “racism”, by your own definition, has nothing at all do do with power, and everything to do with animosity, prejudice, and antagonism.
> 
> Kendi wants to change that definition so that certain ethnic groups are bad and other ethic groups are better.  That is straight up, old school racism which has no place in our schools at any level.


Bravo @dad4, well said!... I'm with you 100% we need this poison out of our schools!

...now, if we can get the masks off their faces...whattaya say? LOL!


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Marginalized?  Jackass?   I decline your offer to change the topic.
> 
> The point being discussed is that “racism”, by your own definition, has nothing at all do do with power, and everything to do with animosity, prejudice, and antagonism.
> 
> Kendi wants to change that definition so that certain ethnic groups are bad and other ethic groups are better.  That is straight up, old school racism which has no place in our schools at any level.


Now, you are just making stuff up.  I posted Oxfords definition of racist.  You were acting like a jackass when you said the word power was not in the definition.

I pointed out that the word marginalized was in Oxfords definition of racist and asked you to define it since you were acting hella lame.

So, can you define marginalized?  I’m waiting smarty pants.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> isn’t using the b word sexist?  Is being sexist somehow less morally wrong than being racist?
> 
> for that matter isn’t macdre telling me that my lgbtq oppression doesn’t really matter as far as power hierarchies are concerned also bigoted?  I’m assuming he is straight and a guy (though I want to be careful about gender assuming so maybe I should refer to him as xhe?)…but shouldn’t I be outraged xhe discounted my lgbtq status (a status for which I’ve experienced far more discrimination than my race)?


You are dumb.  I simply stated that your sexual orientation and disability was not relevant to the analysis on racist.  In other words, sexism is a separate and distinct issue.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> Mac Dre has yet to articulate how we differentiate the hierarchy of oppression among people (is it by blood percentage, self declared status, historical grievance….and who out ranks who) or if there even is a hierarchy (can white people be racist against each other…does that mean nonwhites can’t be racist even against each other and have a complete pass) but I have some bad news for you crush while we await macdre s ruling.
> 
> As a Scotsman potentially the only people who can be racist against you are those pesky English descendants (most likely dar members)…man I always knew those English were the worst of the worst what with king George and all his what whatting…even the Irish and poles have a leg up on you…sorry bud.


More dumb shit.  If you have a problem with the way Oxford defines racist, take it up with them.  Don’t kill the messenger!!!


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> You are dumb.  I simply stated that your sexual orientation and disability was not relevant to the analysis on racist.  In other words, sexism is a separate and distinct issue.


And I accepted your explanation for that at least arguendo

again can I be racist against a person of Jewish, Arab, Asian, African American, Native American or Mexican decent? If so what’s the hierarchy, or do I just get a free pass since I’m oppressed? Can white people be racist against each other? Can an African American be racist against a Native American?

you are still ducking my question


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Now, you are just making stuff up.  I posted Oxfords definition of racist.  You were acting like a jackass when you said the word power was not in the definition.
> 
> I pointed out that the word marginalized was in Oxfords definition of racist and asked you to define it since you were acting hella lame.
> 
> So, can you define marginalized?  I’m waiting smarty pants.


1- the word marginalized applied to the victim of the racism.  The definition contains no requirement that the racist be the one responsible for the marginalization.

2- the definition only states that racism is _typically_ towards marginalized people.   Racism towards non-marginalized groups is still well within the definition.  Kendi’s racism is an example of racism towards a non-marginalized group.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> And I accepted your explanation for that at least arguendo
> 
> again can I be racist against a person of Jewish, Arab, Asian, African American, Native American or Mexican decent? If so what’s the hierarchy, or do I just get a free pass since I’m oppressed? Can white people be racist against each other? Can an African American be racist against a Native American?
> 
> you are still ducking my question


Ask Oxford, it’s their definition.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> 1- the word marginalized applied to the victim of the racism.  The definition contains no requirement that the racist be the one responsible for the marginalization.
> 
> 2- the definition only states that racism is _typically_ towards marginalized people.   Racism towards non-marginalized groups is still well within the definition.  Kendi’s racism is an example of racism towards a non-marginalized group.


I didn’t ask for your analysis of the definition of marginalized, I asked for the definition of marginalized.

You get hella lame around the issue of racism, so we have to take this one step at a time.

You have the audacity to opine on issues regarding racist and you don’t even understand the definition of racist.  Are you trying to change Oxfords definition of racist because of white guilt?


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> Ask Oxford, it’s their definition.


if there’s one thing we’ve learned from the covid talk is an appeal to authority from either side isn’t going to cut it

it’s clear you either can’t or won’t defend the position you’ve taken. I wasn’t even asking you to defend anything…just to clarify exactly how this system works which you’ve been unable to do.

I’m more lefty than dad4 when it comes to social issues so I remain open to your position…I’m just disappointed you weren’t able to fully articulate one beyond the dictionary says so. And as has been pointed out to you it doesn’t even say what you think it does (establishing an exclusive relationship between power and racism).


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> if there’s one thing we’ve learned from the covid talk is an appeal to authority from either side isn’t going to cut it
> 
> it’s clear you either can’t or won’t defend the position you’ve taken. I wasn’t even asking you to defend anything…just to clarify exactly how this system works which you’ve been unable to do.
> 
> I’m more lefty than dad4 when it comes to social issues so I remain open to your position…I’m just disappointed you weren’t able to fully articulate one beyond the dictionary says so. And as has been pointed out to you it doesn’t even say what you think it does (establishing an exclusive relationship between power and racism).


Ps we’ve had quite a few face plants in these threads. I’ve had them. Dad4 has had them. Even ol espola has caused some. But to lay a marker like you did and then fall back on “the dictionary says so” is pretty epic.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> if there’s one thing we’ve learned from the covid talk is an appeal to authority from either side isn’t going to cut it
> 
> it’s clear you either can’t or won’t defend the position you’ve taken. I wasn’t even asking you to defend anything…just to clarify exactly how this system works which you’ve been unable to do.
> 
> I’m more lefty than dad4 when it comes to social issues so I remain open to your position…I’m just disappointed you weren’t able to fully articulate one beyond the dictionary says so. And as has been pointed out to you it doesn’t even say what you think it does (establishing an exclusive relationship between power and racism).


I just wanted the definition of racist to be clear because I thought some folks had a misunderstanding of the word because their analysis was off.  Now, that Oxfords definition is clear I’m gonna remove myself from the discussion and y’all can carry on.


----------



## crush

Let's not get of topic folks.  This is Vaccine section.  Listen up and listen well: America has become a Pill.  "Bought & brought to you by Pfizer."  WTF up to the plan and the scam.  I heard from a dear Doctor pal of mind yesterday that some scary information will be coming out this week regarding this and a lot of that regarding the jab.  Vaers is reporting 5000x% increase in death rate for the Jabbed.  No joke!!! They slip this stuff in on the weekends.  Dr. Fraud is after your children and said so on TV.  Not one Q about all his lies.  He wants all 5-11 years in his doctors office asap to receive the beast.  These evil monsters are doing it out in the open.  Red October, the hunters will now be hunted and EXPOSED in broad daylight.  Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.  No gasoline!!!  Alec shooting the wife of an attorney working on the HRC cheating law firm is becoming a great crime thriller.  Be careful what you inject in your veins everyone.  Just say no, I love you all


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> I just wanted the definition of racist to be clear because I thought some folks had a misunderstanding of the word because their analysis was off.  Now, that Oxfords definition is clear I’m gonna remove myself from the discussion and y’all can carry on.


1. As has been pointed out to you it doesn’t say what you think it does
2. That’s not all you were doing…you were making an ideological point
3. Some maintained your point was wrong. I questioned it and asked you to clarify. You couldn’t other than say that’s what the dictionary say (which again see 1)


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I just wanted the definition of racist to be clear because I thought some folks had a misunderstanding of the word because their analysis was off.  Now, that Oxfords definition is clear I’m gonna remove myself from the discussion and y’all can carry on.


No you dont Dre.  You started this race rant by saying white's are racist.  You must finish it for the sake of mankind.  We need to come together as one people, not black or white or this or that.  We ALL need to go back to our native roots and embrace our individual cultures, not the fucking color of one's skin.  On my trip to North Carolina and back, I noticed something about all the Indians or should I call them "The Reds?"  We got white, black, brown and yellow so let's add Red? My Q is this.  Why do the Red's have tribes in America like Cherokee, Navaho, Apache, Pechenga and so on?  My wife and I think it's because the Native American was a free human and never claimed ownership of the land.  Basically, the tribal leaders did NOT pimp out their own peeps to be sold.  The Scotts were easily bought and most caved in to the peer pressure and many sold out to the Empire.  Not my bloodline.  Hell no, we told them to F off and we went to North Carolina.  The Cherokee lived in North Carolina way before anyone else came to the land.  The Cherokee were told to get out and start walking to Oklahoma.  1200 miles walk in that heat.  I'm going deep folks.  No more race hustlers, please stop!!!


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I didn’t ask for your analysis of the definition of marginalized, I asked for the definition of marginalized.
> 
> You get hella lame around the issue of racism, so we have to take this one step at a time.
> 
> You have the audacity to opine on issues regarding racist and you don’t even understand the definition of racist.  Are you trying to change Oxfords definition of racist because of white guilt?


The definition of marginalized is not at issue.  It is an optional characteristic of the victim of racism.  If you need the definition, go look it up.

Oxford’s definition of racism is correct.  Antagonism towards a racial or ethnic group.  

It’s you and Kendi who want to redefine racism so that only white people can be racist in America.  And, by targeting white people, your redefinition is itself racist.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> 1. As has been pointed out to you it doesn’t say what you think it does
> 2. That’s not all you were doing…you were making an ideological point
> 3. Some maintained your point was wrong. I questioned it and asked you to clarify. You couldn’t other than say that’s what the dictionary say (which again see 1)


... basically, they accuse others of what they do...like Kendi's BS of using racism under the guise of anti-racism...as you can see above, it fails to stand up to even the simplest scrutiny... but, it allows them to call you a racist or use the white guilt drivel for even questioning it...take BLM, any questions and you believe black lives don't matter... It's a pathetic marketing ploy by academic leftists to gin up and rally the ignorant and uneducated. Now they want to feed this poison into the K-12 school systems... and they're being called on it.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> The definition of marginalized is not at issue.  It is an optional characteristic of the victim of racism.  If you need the definition, go look it up.
> 
> Oxford’s definition of racism is correct.  Antagonism towards a racial or ethnic group.
> 
> It’s you and Kendi who want to redefine racism so that only white people can be racist in America.  And, by targeting white people, your redefinition is itself racist.


Or maybe exactly the opposite?

*"Why do you think black people can be racist as well? You’ve heard of the argument that people of color can’t be racist because they don’t have institutional power.*

"So generally white people say, I’m not racist, and black people say, I can’t be racist. There’s a similar form of denial that is essential to the life of racism itself. You have black people who believe that they can’t be racist because they believe that black people don’t have power and that’s blatantly not true. Every single person on earth has the power to resist racist policies and power."









						Sure, black people can be racist, too | CNN
					

Scholar Ibram X. Kendi, whose provocative new book is titled, "How to be an Antiracist," says the notion that black people can't be racist is tainted by racism itself.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

Dualism has America by the balls.  One left ball and one right ball.  They need to work together, not hitting each other.  Mockingbird Media is to blame as well.  They have been teaching us to hate & divide from the beginning.  I loved how I handled my time in Forrest, AK.  I pulled in and I was the only Scot person.  My wife was the only Cherokee.  Everyone else was "black."  Why me called "white man" and why them called "black people" but my wife is Cherokee?  Is this by blood? Grace T, break it down for me, thanks.


----------



## crush

Dr. Fraud was also using little puppies to watch them get eaten by some creature.  Talk about a weird science project dude was up to.  I met these weirdos in science class back in college.  I was a Kinesiology major and was all set to be basketball coach and PE teacher at a local high school and took mostly pre-med classes with the Elitist future health pros.  I came real close to that life.  Dude has done jabber doo experiments with aborted baby parts, cute puppies, bats from the China Mountains outside Wuhan and lies when he talks, juts like the asshat I dealt with in soccer.  Total fake Docs.  Dr. Fraud is by far worse because people are dying and have lost everything.  He even has partners here, like GG & Espola.


----------



## crush

I think avatars like Espola live off the lies.  They love lie food.  I forgot about how some people live off the lie and they sold soul to The Liar of all Liars.  The one who invented lying and why we all lie is why we have Lie.  Even a little "white" lie is bad, even if the white lie is from a Cherokee or a black or brown person.  Not all white lies are from white people, just saying.  We really need to get to the bottom of who in the hell started all this racisms in the first place.  Who was the first racist ever???  What color was he or her?  God created all this in the first place so is it Gods fault?  Maybe Cain who beat the shit out of his bro Abel and killed him because he was jealous?  What color was Cain?


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Or maybe exactly the opposite?
> 
> *"Why do you think black people can be racist as well? You’ve heard of the argument that people of color can’t be racist because they don’t have institutional power.*
> 
> "So generally white people say, I’m not racist, and black people say, I can’t be racist. There’s a similar form of denial that is essential to the life of racism itself. You have black people who believe that they can’t be racist because they believe that black people don’t have power and that’s blatantly not true. Every single person on earth has the power to resist racist policies and power."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, black people can be racist, too | CNN
> 
> 
> Scholar Ibram X. Kendi, whose provocative new book is titled, "How to be an Antiracist," says the notion that black people can't be racist is tainted by racism itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Because CNN and Kendi said so? Wrong account Mary, go sell this bullshit to your girlfriends on Instagram.


----------



## crush

*Obama says GOP is 'systematically preventing' citizens from voting*
"All across the country, *Democrats are trying to make it easier to vote *((wrong, the liars want it easier for folks to cheat so they don;t go to jail and face the consequences for committing treason)), not make it harder to vote, and push back on Republicans who are trying to systematically prevent ordinary citizens from making their voices heard," Obama said Saturday in Richmond.

This guy fooled me.  I gave him a chance and all he does is lie and hustle race.  The biggest divider and fake ever.  Just wait folks.  My Native American DD cannot even play college soccer because of the mandates.  With the FDA approval coming after school kids, I'm sure she will be banned for HSS.  Just so you ALL know, non of you are fully vaccinated if no booster.  I'm sure your doctor will give you the recommendation to get booster so you can be fully jabbed.  These goal post are moved by some gnarly people.  Warning to all my peeps:  Becareful what you inject in your veins,  I'm super serious you guys and no satire here.  When will you be fully vaccinated?


----------



## MicPaPa

MacDre said:


> I just wanted the definition of racist to be clear because I thought some folks had a misunderstanding of the word because their analysis was off.  Now, that Oxfords definition is clear I’m gonna remove myself from the discussion and y’all can carry on.


Damn, this thread is brutal. Feels like I stumbled into another crime scene, you all decapitated a race-baiter. 

Looks like @MacVictim is picking up his race cards, boarding his new underground railroad, and scurrying back to his privileged, I mean persecuted, life on the Bay Area plantation with the rest of the Kendi Klan. 

Good Riddance! And take @espola, I mean Mary, with you.


----------



## crush

Is 90% good?


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> No you dont Dre.  You started this race rant by saying white's are racist.  You must finish it for the sake of mankind.  We need to come together as one people, not black or white or this or that.  We ALL need to go back to our native roots and embrace our individual cultures, not the fucking color of one's skin.  On my trip to North Carolina and back, I noticed something about all the Indians or should I call them "The Reds?"  We got white, black, brown and yellow so let's add Red? My Q is this.  Why do the Red's have tribes in America like Cherokee, Navaho, Apache, Pechenga and so on?  My wife and I think it's because the Native American was a free human and never claimed ownership of the land.  *Basically, the tribal leaders did NOT pimp out their own peeps to be sold.*  The Scotts were easily bought and most caved in to the peer pressure and many sold out to the Empire.  Not my bloodline.  Hell no, we told them to F off and we went to North Carolina.  The Cherokee lived in North Carolina way before anyone else came to the land.  The Cherokee were told to get out and start walking to Oklahoma.  1200 miles walk in that heat.  I'm going deep folks.  No more race hustlers, please stop!!!


One big happy Native American family who would never think of something as awful as slavery?   Hardly.

The Cherokee?  They owned slaves.   Apache?  Owned slaves, and conducted their own slave raids to get more.

Or look at the satellite states of the Aztec or Cahotia.  Tribal leaders didn't just offer their people up for slavery.  Tribal leaders offered them up to be sacrificed.

People are just people.  Same faults everywhere.  It's up to us to rise above it.


----------



## MacDre

MicPaPa said:


> Damn, this thread is brutal. Feels like I stumbled into another crime scene, you all decapitated a race-baiter.
> 
> Looks like @MacVictim is picking up his race cards, boarding his new underground railroad, and scurrying back to his privileged, I mean persecuted, life on the Bay Area plantation with the rest of the Kendi Klan.
> 
> Good Riddance! And take @espola, I mean Mary, with you.


Does white privilege exist?  Here’s a dedication from your pal:


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> One big happy Native American family who would never think of something as awful as slavery?   Hardly.
> 
> The Cherokee?  They owned slaves.   Apache?  Owned slaves, and conducted their own slave raids to get more.
> 
> Or look at the satellite states of the Aztec or Cahotia.  Tribal leaders didn't just offer their people up for slavery.  Tribal leaders offered them up to be sacrificed.
> 
> People are just people.  Same faults everywhere.  It's up to us to rise above it.


Oh, so everyone could be a slave in their own tribes?  I feel you and I agree.  What is a slave then?


----------



## crush

I broke away from being a white slave.  Jealousy is what this all comes down too and race baiters who use color codes to insight hate and war.  This is text book 101 on how to start a war and make billions.  I will NOT take jabs.  Let's see WHO is free and who will become a real magnet that can be told what to do, where to go and what to believe.  Stop before you become a magnet!!!


----------



## crush

*The Big Liar!!!*


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> If we didn't have a senate, the larger states would run rough shod over the smaller states.


versus the smaller states running rough shot over the larger ones?


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Fair point, but the alternative is to effectively have LA and NYC determine our president.  There is no perfect solution, but I prefer the electoral college.


Wasn't it Rand Paul who said that the GOP would be screwed for Pres without the electoral college? A system that allows a minority to select the Pres, and the minority to control the Senate, which in turn allows the minority to control the judiciary is problematic IMO.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> If we didn't have a senate, the larger states would run rough shod over the smaller states.
> 
> The reason why we have a senate today is maybe even more important than before.
> 
> The 17th amendment did more harm than good.
> 
> Now the senate is less responsive to their state which has in turn helped the fed gov grow.


If you dare to look back at what was actually said in the discussions forming the Constitution, the 2 Senators per state idea was put in to keep the lower population states (mostly in the south) from being overruled by the higher population states (mostly in the north).  The southern states also wanted to count their slaves toward the population census that determined the number of representatives in the House; thus the 3/5 compromise.  Otherwise, the southern states weren't going to sign up.


----------



## espola

This is how silly the anti-vax argument is getting (copied from a FB friend) --


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> If you dare to look back at what was actually said in the discussions forming the Constitution, the 2 Senators per state idea was put in to keep the lower population states (mostly in the south) from being overruled by the higher population states (mostly in the north).  The southern states also wanted to count their slaves toward the population census that determined the number of representatives in the House; thus the 3/5 compromise.  Otherwise, the southern states weren't going to sign up.


You've got a fish on using race bait, must be a @MacCarp, well done Mary.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> You've got a fish on using race bait, must be a @MacCarp, well done Mary.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> One big happy Native American family who would never think of something as awful as slavery?   Hardly.
> 
> The Cherokee?  They owned slaves.   Apache?  Owned slaves, and conducted their own slave raids to get more.
> 
> Or look at the satellite states of the Aztec or Cahotia.  Tribal leaders didn't just offer their people up for slavery.  Tribal leaders offered them up to be sacrificed.
> 
> People are just people.  Same faults everywhere.  It's up to us to rise above it.





dad4 said:


> One big happy Native American family who would never think of something as awful as slavery?   Hardly.
> 
> The Cherokee?  They owned slaves.   Apache?  Owned slaves, and conducted their own slave raids to get more.
> 
> Or look at the satellite states of the Aztec or Cahotia.  Tribal leaders didn't just offer their people up for slavery.  Tribal leaders offered them up to be sacrificed.
> 
> People are just people.  Same faults everywhere.  It's up to us to rise above it.


So did African Americans for a while until the south started requiring freed men to leave the south for fear of sparking a rebellion (it’s a central plot point of “roots”)

so who then occupies the most aggrieved group in the grievance hierarchy?  I had assumed it was native Americans because they were partially genocided (and African Americans participated) but you just made the case it’s African Americans because of slavery.  I’m so confused now.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What did I get wrong?


You hit the nail on the head for the 3/5 compromise but New Jersey Delaware rhode island Connecticut and New Hampshire all had lower electoral counts than the Carolinas Virginia or Maryland. The issue was New York Pennsylvania Maryland Virginia the Carolinas and Georgia all claimed the land from the sea to the Mississippi. The other states were landlocked away from such claims (masachusetts had Maine). The northwest ordinance and the admission of Kentucky and tennesse resolved such issue.


----------



## what-happened

This thread sure took a left turn.  Alphabet boys, conservatives in the state department.  CRT, unicorns in flight.



espola said:


> I have been for years generally non-partisan, but the extremes of t's behavior made me a Democrat for a day.


Fair reply. 

I'm curious as to what specific behvior pushed you away and what specific behaviour from the democrats drew you in.  Both parties are severely tainted. Why democrat for a day, why not democrat always.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You hit the nail on the head for the 3/5 compromise but New Jersey Delaware rhode island Connecticut and New Hampshire all had lower electoral counts than the Carolinas Virginia or Maryland. The issue was New York Pennsylvania Maryland Virginia the Carolinas and Georgia all claimed the land from the sea to the Mississippi. The other states were landlocked away from such claims (masachusetts had Maine). The northwest ordinance and the admission of Kentucky and tennesse resolved such issue.


That's an interesting way to look at it.  The Northwest Ordinance (one of the few lasting actions by Confederation) allowed the creation of new States and also banned slavery in those states.  Perhaps that banning alerted the southern states to what could happen in Congress.

And your history lesson forgot the Massachusetts claim based on its original sea-to-sea charter (ceded in 1784), and the Connecticut claim to a strip of land formed by running the Connecticut boundaries due west to the Mississippi.  Connecticut ceded most of their claim in 1n 1786, but held onto and administered the Western Reserve in Northeast Ohio until 1800.  I also don't see how the admission of Kentucky and Tennessee in 1792 and 1796 (after the admission of Vermont in 1791) could have had any effect on the actions of 1787.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> This thread sure took a left turn.  Alphabet boys, conservatives in the state department.  CRT, unicorns in flight.
> 
> 
> Fair reply.
> 
> I'm curious as to what specific behvior pushed you away and what specific behaviour from the democrats drew you in.  Both parties are severely tainted. Why democrat for a day, why not democrat always.


I agree that both parties are tainted.  I've been saying that for years.

Democrat on election day, because of t, as I already stated.


----------



## met61

...imagine going from being forced to sit in the back of the bus, to forcing those who don't look like you off the bus...who had the "power"?

...congrats @MacDre , this is what "anti-racism" racism looks like.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Does white privilege exist?  Here’s a dedication from your pal:


Your cultural ambassador is a convicted sexual assailant who got himself killed in a gangsta rap drug war?

You must be trying to win some prize for most predictable stereotype reinforcement.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Your cultural ambassador is a convicted sexual assailant who got himself killed in a gangsta rap drug war?
> 
> You must be trying to win some prize for most predictable stereotype reinforcement.


Or maybe you keep taking the bait and proving my point.  Thanks Pal.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's an interesting way to look at it.  The Northwest Ordinance (one of the few lasting actions by Confederation) allowed the creation of new States and also banned slavery in those states.  Perhaps that banning alerted the southern states to what could happen in Congress.
> 
> And your history lesson forgot the Massachusetts claim based on its original sea-to-sea charter (ceded in 1784), and the Connecticut claim to a strip of land formed by running the Connecticut boundaries due west to the Mississippi.  Connecticut ceded most of their claim in 1n 1786, but held onto and administered the Western Reserve in Northeast Ohio until 1800.  I also don't see how the admission of Kentucky and Tennessee in 1792 and 1796 (after the admission of Vermont in 1791) could have had any effect on the actions of 1787.


Fair but the practical reality for both Massachusetts and Connecticut is they were physically blocked off from their claims by ny which is why I didn’t put them on the list.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Or maybe you keep taking the bait and proving my point.  Thanks Pal.


Glad to help.  As long as it's negative stereotype day....

After reviewing my old Notorious LPs, maybe I'll head over to the annual Al Capone spaghetti night fundraiser at the Italian Cultural Center.  Then send a couple quid to the real IRA, down some pints at Finnegan's, get in a fight and take my customary ride home in the Paddy wagon.

Apologies to anyone I forgot to offend there.  I didn't mean to leave you out.


----------



## MicPaPa

More mask insanity!

Government has created ranks of these psychos throughout the country, and they're saying it's parents who are the domestic terrorists. Imagine what is going undiscovered and unreported.

From this bullshit to CRT the time has come to take back direct control of schools.

NOTE: @espola (AKA: nutless wonder) save your "What is CRT" question for your circle jerk teammates.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451870350019596293


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Glad to help.  As long as it's negative stereotype day....
> 
> After reviewing my old Notorious LPs, maybe I'll head over to the annual Al Capone spaghetti night fundraiser at the Italian Cultural Center.  Then send a couple quid to the real IRA, down some pints at Finnegan's, get in a fight and take my customary ride home in the Paddy wagon.
> 
> Apologies to anyone I forgot to offend there.  I didn't mean to leave you out.


You forgot to invite @Grace T. over for popcorn and to watch Chappelle's latest Netflix gig "The Closer"  [wink] Love you GT!


----------



## MicPaPa

MacDre said:


> Or maybe you keep taking the bait and proving my point.  Thanks Pal.


Embarrassing. Take this weak-ass shit to Instagram or FB and join Mary on Team Nutless.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Fair but the practical reality for both Massachusetts and Connecticut is they were physically blocked off from their claims by ny which is why I didn’t put them on the list.


Massachusetts enforced its claim in Colonial time strongly enough to establish its western border with New York to be roughly 20 miles east of the Hudson River when New York was claiming the boundary was the Connecticut River, based on the claims of the former Dutch province of New Netherlands.  

Connecticut, as I already pointed out, maintained a presence in northeastern Ohio until 1800, despite the land separation.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow. Just got back from the market.  Didn’t get a 1/3 of my list and bugged out at the prices.  But there’s a lot missing from the shelves most notably there’s no frozen pumpkin pie and generally frozen pies were running low. They have 30 days to fix that or people are going to go bonkers on the ds. If must have pumpkin pie for thanksgiving you’ll want to think about saving a Halloween pumpkin. One guy was loading up on planks of water…don’t know if that’s a thing again.  A lot of ice cream and milk also empty.   No produce or alcohol issues (don’t know about beer).   Looks like we might be going full Soviet Union.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Wow. Just got back from the market.  Didn’t get a 1/3 of my list and bugged out at the prices.  But there’s a lot missing from the shelves most notably there’s no frozen pumpkin pie and generally frozen pies were running low. They have 30 days to fix that or people are going to go bonkers on the ds. If must have pumpkin pie for thanksgiving you’ll want to think about saving a Halloween pumpkin. One guy was loading up on planks of water…don’t know if that’s a thing again.  A lot of ice cream and milk also empty.   No produce or alcohol issues (don’t know about beer).   Looks like we might be going full Soviet Union.


It was packed at Stater Bros.  Me and my wife were blown away with how crowded it was today.  7 out of 10 had mask on and fear everywhere.  I saw panic and my wife saw sadnness and hopelessness on so many faces.   I told my wife more about you and we both appreciate your openness and honesty Grace T.  Were all going to be amazed and happy with how all this ends for those on the side of truth.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Wasn't it Rand Paul who said that the GOP would be screwed for Pres without the electoral college? A system that allows a minority to select the Pres, and the minority to control the Senate, which in turn allows the minority to control the judiciary is problematic IMO.


Sorry getting rid of the Electoral College (which is not a perfect system) is a bridge too far for me, and its hardly a minority that are deciding.  I don't think anyone considers 70+ million citizens and 45+ states a minority.  You disenfranchise millions when you allow the coasts, specifically LA and NYC to determine our president.  Could you imagine the corruption potential putting that power in a few cities and the amount of graft that would be used to influence those communities.  You're a reasonable person but you've clearly not thought this one through.  It's a very slippery slope when you start to change the constitution, particularly when its done just to suit your political affiliation.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Sorry getting rid of the Electoral College (which is not a perfect system) is a bridge too far for me, and its hardly a minority that are deciding.  I don't think anyone considers 70+ million citizens and 45+ states a minority.  You disenfranchise millions when you allow the coasts, specifically LA and NYC to determine our president.  Could you imagine the corruption potential putting that power in a few cities and the amount of graft that would be used to influence those communities.  You're a reasonable person but you've clearly not thought this one through.  It's a very slippery slope when you start to change the constitution, particularly when its done just to suit your political affiliation.


They cheated because they couldnt win with the rules for the President.  They will do whatever it takes to win wat fly.  Its too late. Jack & Mark silenced a sitting President dude and the United States Military he commands.  Dr. Fruad and Bill got you and millions like you to inject baby magnets in your blood.  Please stop bro, I care about you.  You need to wtf up too.  No more Mr. NICEGUY playing in the middle.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Sorry getting rid of the Electoral College (which is not a perfect system) is a bridge too far for me, and its hardly a minority that are deciding.  I don't think anyone considers 70+ million citizens and 45+ states a minority.  You disenfranchise millions when you allow the coasts, specifically LA and NYC to determine our president.  Could you imagine the corruption potential putting that power in a few cities and the amount of graft that would be used to influence those communities.  You're a reasonable person but you've clearly not thought this one through.  It's a very slippery slope when you start to change the constitution, particularly when its done just to suit your political affiliation.


Yep I like our system. 

The thing about those complaining about the electoral college, senators, etc., there is a solution. Our system allows for constitutional amendments. So convince enough people/states, etc and get the change you want. It will be hard to do, but then again changes to the constitution are supposed to be hard.


----------



## crush

Warning:  Please you guys, watch this and watch what you inject into your blood.  The blood circulates throughout your body and it's all the blood you got.  Don't taint your blood from a bunch of weirdo scientists who lie for living. That not good.  









						GREAT RESET VAX Prince / VAXXED MAN / ASDA VAX BUS (AN INCONVENIENT [TRUTH] COLLAPSE...)
					

GREAT RESET VAX Prince #RESIST MEDICAL TYRANNY ================ (world orders review) ================ GREAT RESET VAX Prince / VAXXED MAN / ASDA VAX BUS  (AM INCONVENIENT [DISOBEDIENT] & UNTIMELY COLLAPSE...) https://www.bitchute.com/video/8…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Yep I like our system.
> 
> The thing about those complaining about the electoral college, senators, etc., there is a solution. Our system allows for constitutional amendments. So convince enough people/states, etc and get the change you want. It will be hard to do, but then again changes to the constitution are supposed to be hard.


Here is my list of changes --

Elect President and Vice President separately.
Keep the electoral college (it limits vote-counting mischief in any state to that state's electors), but require proportions -- if a candidate gets 1/3 or more of the popular votes in a state, he gets at least a third of the state's electoral votes.  Individual states could decide to divide the pie even more fairly if they wish, but the 1/3 number recognizes that all states have at least 3 votes.
Elect the Attorney General and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court directly with the same Electoral College process.
Create a class of Life Senators who no longer have to seek campaign contributions to stay in office.  Possible selections would be all former Presidents and Vice Presidents, and members of Congress of long standing.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Here is my list of changes --
> 
> Elect President and Vice President separately.
> Keep the electoral college (it limits vote-counting mischief in any state to that state's electors), but require proportions -- if a candidate gets 1/3 or more of the popular votes in a state, he gets at least a third of the state's electoral votes.  Individual states could decide to divide the pie even more fairly if they wish, but the 1/3 number recognizes that all states have at least 3 votes.
> Elect the Attorney General and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court directly with the same Electoral College process.
> Create a class of Life Senators who no longer have to seek campaign contributions to stay in office.  Possible selections would be all former Presidents and Vice Presidents, and members of Congress of long standing.


Well first off I would like to congratulate you. Seriously. 

Instead of saying link or what and not contributing anything you actually gave an opinion that can lead to a discussion. So thank you. 

Let me ponder your points and I will give feedback. Probably in the morning since it is late. 

But you finally gave an opinion on something that allows a back and forth. Thanks!


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Well first off I would like to congratulate you. Seriously.
> 
> Instead of saying link or what and not contributing anything you actually gave an opinion that can lead to a discussion. So thank you.
> 
> Let me ponder your points and I will give feedback. Probably in the morning since it is late.
> 
> But you finally gave an opinion on something that allows a back and forth. Thanks!


The only thing I’ll weigh in on is I hate the idea of electing judges.  I think those progressive reforms have worked poorly in states that have judges elected. My main complaint is there is too much of a tendency to ignore the actual law for political partisanship— so you get “hang em high” on the right and critical though progressivism on the left.

as for a us House of Lords I’ll only noteboth the right and left in the uk have been unhappy with theirs but maybe that’s the point


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Well first off I would like to congratulate you. Seriously.
> 
> Instead of saying link or what and not contributing anything you actually gave an opinion that can lead to a discussion. So thank you.
> 
> Let me ponder your points and I will give feedback. Probably in the morning since it is late.
> 
> But you finally gave an opinion on something that allows a back and forth. Thanks!


I think Espola shared more from his brain in one post then he has the last two years.  I think it was respectful to you Hound.  He still ignores me but that's ok.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The only thing I’ll weigh in on is I hate the idea of electing judges.  I think those progressive reforms have worked poorly in states that have judges elected. My main complaint is there is too much of a tendency to ignore the actual law for political partisanship— so you get “hang em high” on the right and critical though progressivism on the left.
> 
> as for a us House of Lords I’ll only noteboth the right and left in the uk have been unhappy with theirs but maybe that’s the point


Term limits need to be installed asap or blow the sucker up and start over.  Like I said before Grace T, being Bought, Bribed and Blackmailed to do as told is what has caused most of the problems in politics 101.  Life time members cheat!!!!


----------



## crush

They ((the cheaters & Liars) want YOU to be godless, sexless, genderless, childless, depressed, anxious, afraid, fat, drug addicted, lonely, booze, physically weak, mentally weak, in debt, isolated, living in Pod, dependent on Nanny, take boosters until told no more and then die all alone!!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The only thing I’ll weigh in on is I hate the idea of electing judges.  I think those progressive reforms have worked poorly in states that have judges elected. My main complaint is there is too much of a tendency to ignore the actual law for political partisanship— so you get “hang em high” on the right and critical though progressivism on the left.
> 
> as for a us House of Lords I’ll only noteboth the right and left in the uk have been unhappy with theirs but maybe that’s the point


The point is to get people in office who are not looking for campaign contributions throughout their whole term.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The point is to get people in office who are not looking for campaign contributions throughout their whole term*s.*


I fixed it for you.  When EJ first came on these boards to talk all the garbage in youth soccer ((politics, dads buying clubs and dads on boards to get kid picked for YNT and then all the abuse the girls and some moms took from some Doc heads)) you were my support.  EJ told you that he was going to get to the bottom of all this.  Well, all you did was ignore my facts.  So sad Espola because........


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Sorry getting rid of the Electoral College (which is not a perfect system) is a bridge too far for me, and its hardly a minority that are deciding.  I don't think anyone considers 70+ million citizens and 45+ states a minority.  You disenfranchise millions when you allow the coasts, specifically LA and NYC to determine our president.  Could you imagine the corruption potential putting that power in a few cities and the amount of graft that would be used to influence those communities.  You're a reasonable person but you've clearly not thought this one through.  It's a very slippery slope when you start to change the constitution, particularly when its done just to suit your political affiliation.


The problem with the cries of 74M voted for T thing is that 81M voted against T. The minority are perfectly happy to pursue their agenda and ignore the majority if they win power, as noted with T and the Senate for 4 years happily packing the judiciary from SCOTUS down despite both T & the Senate representing a minority of the electorate. "You" can't then cry when you lose and those that represent the actual majority want to go a different path. There's plenty of "corruption to go around, neither party has a monopoly on it or is immune to it. My point is that if the system allows for minority "rule", which it does, and that minority consistently legislates against the wishes of the majority, then that's not sustainable.

For the record, I don't have a political affiliation. I vote R or D depending on the candidate. I would happily have voted for Flake for example if he were the candidate in AZ. In fact, the AZ GOP could have two Rs in the Senate still if they had a clue, but they have been taken over by extremists and present candidates that won't will state wide in AZ. 

For the record, I'd advocate for a system that is far more inclusive and would be a radical change in the US. It will never happen though, specifically

Publicly funded elections, i.e. remove the money
Proportional representation, i.e. negate the influence of the primary nonsense which is empowering the extremes on both sides
Everyone must vote, such as Australia
Term limits for Congress and SCOTUS - a blanket 12 years


----------



## crush

Hold the Line America for which she stands!!!  Notice none of the NYFD have mask on?  









						MY NEW YORK FIREFIGHTERS KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS!!! HOLD THE LINE!!!
					

NO MORE MANDATES!!! New York City workers are getting ready to go across the Brooklyn bridge in protest of vaccine mandates. A great deal of firefighters are among the crowd. 10-25-21 Subscribe to il




					rumble.com


----------



## Desert Hound

_“You see hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands people all packed together – not a mask in sight. I understand it’s outdoors,” Wallace stated, “but *what does it tell you that there have not been spikes in most of these communities when you have people crowded into football or baseball stadiums?*”_

Good question right? And note that many told us it would be a disaster by allowing this. And yet...nothing happened. At some point we need to realize most of our "experts" are winging it.









						‘Not A Mask In Sight’: Chris Wallace Asks CDC Director Why Packed Football Stadiums Aren’t Creating Spikes
					

Chris Wallace asked CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, why packed sports arenas weren't contributing to a rise in COVID cases on his 'Fox News Sunday' broadcast.




					dailycaller.com


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> despite both T & the Senate representing a minority of the electorate.


No they put people on court benches because they had a majority in the Senate. That is they way our Republic works.

By the way T would never had gotten in so many judges had the Ds left alone the filibuster rule. But for a short term victory they ditched it. It was obvious to many that once they did that, R's would also ditch it to suit themselves.

That is why it is important to keep norms in place even if by doing so you give up a win you could have.


whatithink said:


> Publicly funded elections, i.e. remove the money
> Proportional representation, i.e. negate the influence of the primary nonsense which is empowering the extremes on both sides
> Everyone must vote, such as Australia
> Term limits for Congress and SCOTUS - a blanket 12 years


Publicly funded doesn't remove money from elections. It just means the people in power get to determine how money is distributed. 

Proportional rep won't eliminate extremism. It will enhance it. Instead of appealing to a state as a whole, you would would instead preach to your core supporters in any state. 

Everyone shouldnt vote. A substantial percentage of people have no interest in voting. If they are not currently interested, it is also fair to assume they are not close to knowledgeable on the topics. Forcing them to vote doesn't make things better in the least. 

Term limits for Congress would be great. Unfortunately the ones in there now would be the ones voting to limit their own tenure. They will never do that. 

No need for term limits on the SC. That said there could be a mandatory retirement age.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Here is my list of changes --
> 
> Elect President and Vice President separately.
> Keep the electoral college (it limits vote-counting mischief in any state to that state's electors), but require proportions -- if a candidate gets 1/3 or more of the popular votes in a state, he gets at least a third of the state's electoral votes.  Individual states could decide to divide the pie even more fairly if they wish, but the 1/3 number recognizes that all states have at least 3 votes.
> Elect the Attorney General and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court directly with the same Electoral College process.
> Create a class of Life Senators who no longer have to seek campaign contributions to stay in office.  Possible selections would be all former Presidents and Vice Presidents, and members of Congress of long standing.


What would be the point of electing the Prez and the VP separately? It changes nothing to be honest. You kind of want the VP to be from the same party as the P. 

Why proportions? All that means is that a candidate doesn't have to try to appeal to the state at large. He/she would focus on their party only for the most part. 

The attorney general is part of the cabinent. Presidents should be able to fill their cabinets with like minded people. 

Why would electing a chief justice improve anything? I don't like the idea of judges running for election. 

Life senators is a bad idea. Without the need for running for election, they are not constrained by what the people of their state would like. In other words these people would become even bigger creatures of Washington. Having them get elected means they somewhat have to cater to the people of their home state.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> What would be the point of electing the Prez and the VP separately? It changes nothing to be honest. You kind of want the VP to be from the same party as the P.


The one thing it would lead to is shenanigans regarding a president who has committed malfeasance or is undergoing a disability.

Assume it came to light Trump really had colluded with the Russians to engage in fraud in the 2016 elections and Tim Kaine had been elected Veep because Americans like to ticket split.  The Kavanaugh Supreme Court appointment is on the line.  Would Republicans expeditiously without dragging their feet and uniformly be more or less likely to remove Trump from office?

Assume in 2020 Joe Biden had been elected President but Mike Pence is the Vice President.  Wouldn't at the current time Mike Pence be agitating to remove Biden for disability?  Would the Ds be more or less likely to remove him if Pence would become the President?  Seems like a recipe for "Weekend at Camp David" to me.

If the Veeps are from the same party as the President, the results will act as a separate power base (a shadow cabinet) from which the President can be checked.  If the Veeps are from a different party, it will lead to shenanigans where the opposition party will pretextually try to remove the President. In the Soviet Union and in some Latin American countries, it's been enough to form a power base from which a coup can be launched.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The one thing it would lead to is shenanigans regarding a president who has committed malfeasance or is undergoing a disability.
> 
> Assume it came to light Trump really had colluded with the Russians to engage in fraud in the 2016 elections and Tim Kaine had been elected Veep because Americans like to ticket split.  The Kavanaugh Supreme Court appointment is on the line.  Would Republicans expeditiously without dragging their feet and uniformly be more or less likely to remove Trump from office?
> 
> Assume in 2020 Joe Biden had been elected President but Mike Pence is the Vice President.  Wouldn't at the current time Mike Pence be agitating to remove Biden for disability?  Would the Ds be more or less likely to remove him if Pence would become the President?  Seems like a recipe for "Weekend at Camp David" to me.
> 
> If the Veeps are from the same party as the President, the results will act as a separate power base (a shadow cabinet) from which the President can be checked.  If the Veeps are from a different party, it will lead to shenanigans where the opposition party will pretextually try to remove the President. In the Soviet Union and in some Latin American countries, it's been enough to form a power base from which a coup can be launched.


Many states follow that practice today.  California elects Governor and Lt Governor separately and also Attorney General, Secretary of State, Treasurer, and other principal officers.  The Governor still has his Cabinet, but he doesn't have undue influence on the enforcement of laws and the like.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The one thing it would lead to is shenanigans regarding a president who has committed malfeasance or is undergoing a disability.
> 
> Assume it came to light Trump really had colluded with the Russians to engage in fraud in the 2016 elections and Tim Kaine had been elected Veep because Americans like to ticket split.  The Kavanaugh Supreme Court appointment is on the line.  Would Republicans expeditiously without dragging their feet and uniformly be more or less likely to remove Trump from office?
> 
> Assume in 2020 Joe Biden had been elected President but Mike Pence is the Vice President.  Wouldn't at the current time Mike Pence be agitating to remove Biden for disability?  Would the Ds be more or less likely to remove him if Pence would become the President?  Seems like a recipe for "Weekend at Camp David" to me.
> 
> If the Veeps are from the same party as the President, the results will act as a separate power base (a shadow cabinet) from which the President can be checked.  If the Veeps are from a different party, it will lead to shenanigans where the opposition party will pretextually try to remove the President. In the Soviet Union and in some Latin American countries, it's been enough to form a power base from which a coup can be launched.


Your hypothetical situation with VP Kaine assumes that Republcans would keep a traitor in office rather than yield partisan power.  Is that what you meant to propose?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> No they put people on court benches because they had a majority in the Senate. That is they way our Republic works.
> 
> By the way T would never had gotten in so many judges had the Ds left alone the filibuster rule. But for a short term victory they ditched it. It was obvious to many that once they did that, R's would also ditch it to suit themselves.
> 
> That is why it is important to keep norms in place even if by doing so you give up a win you could have.
> 
> Publicly funded doesn't remove money from elections. It just means the people in power get to determine how money is distributed.
> 
> Proportional rep won't eliminate extremism. It will enhance it. Instead of appealing to a state as a whole, you would would instead preach to your core supporters in any state.
> 
> Everyone shouldnt vote. A substantial percentage of people have no interest in voting. If they are not currently interested, it is also fair to assume they are not close to knowledgeable on the topics. Forcing them to vote doesn't make things better in the least.
> 
> Term limits for Congress would be great. Unfortunately the ones in there now would be the ones voting to limit their own tenure. They will never do that.
> 
> No need for term limits on the SC. That said there could be a mandatory retirement age.


You reinforce my point on the Senate/Republic.

The filibuster doesn't really make sense and shouldn't exist.

Public funding makes far more sense than the current system, e.g. the sight of various GOP candidates paying homage/tribute, on bended knee, to Sheldon Adelson was bizarre.

The primary system is literally driving extremism as the extremes are far more motivated to vote for their nutter, left or right. Once a candidate has an R or D beside them, they will get votes, irrespective of their merit.

5-10% of the voters decide every election, of the 66% (v. high turnout) eligible to vote. The vast majority of voters will tick a D or R irrespective of the candidate - that's not engaged or knowledgeable, and I'm not going into the massive misinformation that is prevalent these days.

I think term limits make more sense than a retirement age for the SC, but would take either.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Your hypothetical situation with VP Kaine assumes that Republcans would keep a traitor in office rather than yield partisan power.  Is that what you meant to propose?


Yes, just like my situation with the Ds proposes someone who isn't mentally fit remaining in office as well.  Feel free to swap up...my estimation of either political party isn't particularly high.

I think it's less of an issue with the states as well because there's less at stake.  States and provinces in the world typically don't have coups, for example.  But the federal government has become so pervasive in its influence, that control over the levers of power seems existential to some wings of both parties.  The states (with certain exceptions like Maryland and Virginia which may wind up tearing each other apart) aren't as tense because of the Great Sorting.  I expect we'll see more situations like Maryland, Virginia and Jefferson in the coming years.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Public funding makes far more sense than the current system, e.g. the sight of various GOP candidates paying homage/tribute, on bended knee, to Sheldon Adelson was bizarre.


The fact that you state it as such shows a rather partisan basis on your part.

A non partisan way of saying that is that Ds and Rs get funding from a variety of billionaires, each with an agenda.

Filibusters do make sense. They require that chamber to come to a consensus on a matter which means making an appeal to the other side. In other words it has had the affect of moderating policy.



whatithink said:


> The primary system is literally driving extremism as the extremes are far more motivated to vote for their nutter, left or right. Once a candidate has an R or D beside them, they will get votes, irrespective of their merit.


Your idea of proportionally dividing up the votes is in and of itself a type of primary. Why is that? Because instead of trying to win a state as a whole, you now don't have to appeal to the whole state which usually requires modifying your position.

What you propose on the senate/electoral college is a system where the US would be essentially dominated by NY and CA. Both the Senate and the electoral college balances that out and gives smaller states pull. It also moderates the various candidates. You would get more extreme candidates if they didn't have to worry about the myriad of smaller to mid sized states.


whatithink said:


> 5-10% of the voters decide every election, of the 66% (v. high turnout) eligible to vote. The vast majority of voters will tick a D or R irrespective of the candidate - that's not engaged or knowledgeable, and I'm not going into the massive misinformation that is prevalent these days.


You are correct in the sense that the "independent" is the one that decides the vote in most elections. Forcing people to vote who don't follow politics are don't care doesn't solve any problem.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The fact that you state it as such shows a rather partisan basis on your part.
> 
> A non partisan way of saying that is that Ds and Rs get funding from a variety of billionaires, each with an agenda.
> 
> Filibusters do make sense. They require that chamber to come to a consensus on a matter which means making an appeal to the other side. In other words it has had the affect of moderating policy.
> 
> 
> Your idea of proportionally dividing up the votes is in and of itself a type of primary. Why is that? Because instead of trying to win a state as a whole, you now don't have to appeal to the whole state which usually requires modifying your position.
> 
> What you propose on the senate/electoral college is a system where the US would be essentially dominated by NY and CA. Both the Senate and the electoral college balances that out and gives smaller states pull. It also moderates the various candidates. You would get more extreme candidates if they didn't have to worry about the myriad of smaller to mid sized states.
> 
> You are correct in the sense that the "independent" is the one that decides the vote in most elections. Forcing people to vote who don't follow politics are don't care doesn't solve any problem.


Advocating for public funding is explicitly non partisan. I used that example, as I genuinely thought it bizarre given how public the spectacle was.

Filibusters don't make sense if the party in power can remove it. It was being abused, because its open to abuse. That's a fatal flaw, and why, imv, it serves no purpose.

Proportional (for everything) drives the extremes to the extremes, by ensuring that there are moderate R & D candidates alongside the extreme R & D candidates. My betting is on the moderates hovering up far more votes than the extremes. Sure, there will still be some extremes in Congress, but they would be marginalized and the moderates are far more likely to work together without the fear of being ousted by a motivated extreme minority via a primary challenge. It would also, hopefully precipitate the breakup of the duopoly in US politics. The overwhelming majority of Americans, IMV, are not in either the "Freedom (sic) Caucus" of the GOP or the "Progressive Wing" of the Dems. The sooner those two split into their own parties the better, as neither would have as much electoral success without the R or D after the candidate name, IMO.

The electoral college doesn't moderate candidates. Its a math game. Candidates can just strike off x number of states as they will not win a majority. They focus on a small number of states who suddenly get an undue and unwarranted level of importance. It would make far more sense, if moderating candidates was the goal, to require a split based on votes cast. Now every state is in play, and every vote is important and candidates would have to campaign on a more moderate / appealing platform. Republicans, in their millions, voting for Pres in CA should have some tangible return for that.

And no, CA & NY would not dominate - its proportional, and they only represent 18% of the population.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> The problem with the cries of 74M voted for T thing is that 81M voted against T. The minority are perfectly happy to pursue their agenda and ignore the majority if they win power, as noted with T and the Senate for 4 years happily packing the judiciary from SCOTUS down despite both T & the Senate representing a minority of the electorate. "You" can't then cry when you lose and those that represent the actual majority want to go a different path. There's plenty of "corruption to go around, neither party has a monopoly on it or is immune to it. My point is that if the system allows for minority "rule", which it does, and that minority consistently legislates against the wishes of the majority, then that's not sustainable.
> 
> For the record, I don't have a political affiliation. I vote R or D depending on the candidate. I would happily have voted for Flake for example if he were the candidate in AZ. In fact, the AZ GOP could have two Rs in the Senate still if they had a clue, but they have been taken over by extremists and present candidates that won't will state wide in AZ.
> 
> For the record, I'd advocate for a system that is far more inclusive and would be a radical change in the US. It will never happen though, specifically
> 
> Publicly funded elections, i.e. remove the money
> Proportional representation, i.e. negate the influence of the primary nonsense which is empowering the extremes on both sides
> Everyone must vote, such as Australia
> Term limits for Congress and SCOTUS - a blanket 12 years


There is a difference between minority "rule" and minority "influence".  I just don't really see any significant cases of minority "rule" (correct me if I'm wrong), and the minority should always have influence.  Now the difference between our opinions probably has a lot to do with our home state. I see things through the eyes of a California resident and you see them through the eyes of an Arizona resident.  In California the majority runs roughshod over the minority.  Fortunately, San Diego County is more evenly split.  When I lived in Utah the majority also ran roughshod over the minority, just in a different direction than California.

If we want to talk minority rule then we need to go back to a previous topic, voter ID.  The public is overwhelming in favor of some form of ID to vote, however, the media and a small minority pull the race card and call voter ID "Jim Crow".  I'm in favor of free, easily obtainable voter ID.

As far as your points go...Publicly funded elections, sounds like a good idea, just skeptical of the logistics of it and how it gets funded.  Last thing we need is higher taxes and every time the government gives away money it gets misused.  Last thing we need is another government funded institution with no accountability.  Proportional representation?  Like I said I will stick with the Constitution, it has served our country well.  Everyone must vote?  That raises fraud concerns for me particularly with the potential for ballot harvesting.  It's not any harder to vote than to get a hamburger at Jack in the Box.  To force people to vote seems un-American, for a number of reasons, but seems right up Australia's alley lately.  Term limits for Congress, hell yes.  Term limits for SCOTUS, not so inclined.  Life terms promote far greater independence.  Both parties have tried to make boogey men/women out of the other parties selections.  The worst case scenarios have never come to fruition, even in the short-term.  See ACB and the days of grandstanding by Dems on how she was going to overturn Obamacare and leave the sick with no health care.  She has only voted to uphold Obamacare.


----------



## Hüsker Dü




----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> There is a difference between minority "rule" and minority "influence".  I just don't really see any significant cases of minority "rule" (correct me if I'm wrong), and the minority should always have influence.  Now the difference between our opinions probably has a lot to do with our home state. I see things through the eyes of a California resident and you see them through the eyes of an Arizona resident.  In California the majority runs roughshod over the minority.  Fortunately, San Diego County is more evenly split.  When I lived in Utah the majority also ran roughshod over the minority, just in a different direction than California.
> 
> If we want to talk minority rule then we need to go back to a previous topic, voter ID.  The public is overwhelming in favor of some form of ID to vote, however, the media and a small minority pull the race card and call voter ID "Jim Crow".  I'm in favor of free, easily obtainable voter ID.
> 
> As far as your points go...Publicly funded elections, sounds like a good idea, just skeptical of the logistics of it and how it gets funded.  Last thing we need is higher taxes and every time the government gives away money it gets misused.  Last thing we need is another government funded institution with no accountability.  Proportional representation?  Like I said I will stick with the Constitution, it has served our country well.  Everyone must vote?  That raises fraud concerns for me particularly with the potential for ballot harvesting.  It's not any harder to vote than to get a hamburger at Jack in the Box.  To force people to vote seems un-American, for a number of reasons, but seems right up Australia's alley lately.  Term limits for Congress, hell yes.  Term limits for SCOTUS, not so inclined.  Life terms promote far greater independence.  Both parties have tried to make boogey men/women out of the other parties selections.  The worst case scenarios have never come to fruition, even in the short-term.  See ACB and the days of grandstanding by Dems on how she was going to overturn Obamacare and leave the sick with no health care.  She has only voted to uphold Obamacare.


Voter IDs are good, and just like you say, make them free and easy to obtain.

Public funding would be rounding error in the federal budget. It doesn't take billions to "fund" an election. It does currently to win elections. There are plenty of countries that do this to learn from.

SCOTUS is not independent. The judges are not put there to be independent. If you want a lifetime appointment, then mandate 80% yes votes in the Senate, so that we get a SCOTUS that no politician really wants (a plus) but that 80% hate least, so likely a solid judge with a solid judicial (not political) record.

Most Australians are not up in arms with their government handling of the pandemic. That doesn't mean they are happy, but the small numbers of protestors don't seem to represent the general sentiment. A lot has also been driven at a state level, with different restrictions or little restrictions in those states. They are now getting close to 90% vaccination rates 16+ and are very unlikely to shut down again, or so my Australian friends tell me. Its not my cup of coffee, but I don't live there.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> SCOTUS is not independent. The judges are not put there to be independent. If you want a lifetime appointment, then mandate 80% yes votes in the Senate, so that we get a SCOTUS that no politician really wants (a plus) but that 80% hate least, so likely a solid judge with a solid judicial (not political) record.


With an 80% vote necessary to get confirmed, you just have the seats go vacant.  The gulf in legal philosophies is wide.  The left basically believes in the living Constitution...the Constitution needs to adapt through judicial rulings that recognize we need a modern and expansive federal government, and also to recognize fundamental human rights, even if they are not enumerated in the Constitution itself.  The right is more divided in its legal philosophy but generally favors a stricter reading of the Constitution and a government limited by the enumerated rights and responsibilities set out in the Constitution. 

Note this is different than the question of whether they are "independent".   "independent" means they don't answer to any other branch of government or to the public at large.

SCOTUS as a political arbitrator works in a system where the ideologies aren't too far divided.  But what we have now is a fundamental difference of opinion over what the Constitution is intended to actually do...which is why it's no longer working.  So SCOTUS has become a political football because whoever controls it gets their interpretation of what the Constitution actually does.  There isn't a whole lot of middle ground here either, thanks to the scope of what the government has expanded into it...you either believe one or the other.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Voter IDs are good, and just like you say, make them free and easy to obtain.
> 
> Public funding would be rounding error in the federal budget. It doesn't take billions to "fund" an election. It does currently to win elections. There are plenty of countries that do this to learn from.
> 
> SCOTUS is not independent. The judges are not put there to be independent. If you want a lifetime appointment, then mandate 80% yes votes in the Senate, so that we get a SCOTUS that no politician really wants (a plus) but that 80% hate least, so likely a solid judge with a solid judicial (not political) record.
> 
> Most Australians are not up in arms with their government handling of the pandemic. That doesn't mean they are happy, but the small numbers of protestors don't seem to represent the general sentiment. A lot has also been driven at a state level, with different restrictions or little restrictions in those states. They are now getting close to 90% vaccination rates 16+ and are very unlikely to shut down again, or so my Australian friends tell me. Its not my cup of coffee, but I don't live there.


Maybe independent is too strong but the division and partisanship in SCOTUS is greatly exaggerated by the media and politicians.  I don't think you could find a more diverse group of 9 that are more agreeable than SCOTUS.  According to WAPO:

_The court values consensus, and justices agree far more often than they disagree.  The ratio is staggering. According to the Supreme Court Database, since 2000 a unanimous decision has been more likely than any other result — averaging 36 percent of all decisions. Even when the court did not reach a unanimous judgment, the justices often secured overwhelming majorities, with 7-to-2 or 8-to-1 judgments making up about 15 percent of decisions. The 5-to-4 decisions, by comparison, occurred in 19 percent of cases.

And the court’s commitment to consensus does not appear to be slowing. In the 2016-17 term, 57 percent of decisions were unanimous, and judgments with slim majorities (5 to 3 or 5 to 4) accounted for 14 percent. This term shows a similar trend. Surprisingly firm majorities issued some of the most anticipated decisions. In Masterpiece Cakeshop — the case concerning a baker’s refusal to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple — the court issued a rather narrow ruling on the substance, but it drew seven of the nine justices’ votes. In Gill v. Whitford, the court unanimously agreed that a group of Wisconsin voters did not have standing to challenge their state’s legislative map, and seven justices concurred that the voters could take their case back to district court and try again._

I think the parties just get pissed when they don't get to pick their SCOTUS candidates, so they go worst case scenario about the other parties candidate.  There is always a lot of dirty pool played around the nominations, Garland vs ACB for example.  Since Roe v Wade (1973), Republicans have had 12 justices confirmed and democrats have had 4 confirmed.  Despite abortion seemingly being a litmus test for both parties, Roe v Wade has remained effectively unchanged. Again from WAPO:

_Since the 1970s, studies show a generally moderate to center-right court. In fact, in contemporary times, the court has issued more liberal rulings in its most high-profile cases than conservative rulings, such as decisions to uphold the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act, the legalization of same-sex marriage and restrictions on the death penalty._

Again it sounds like a good idea to have term limits, or an age limit, for SCOTUS, but personally I prefer the surprise factor for nominations.  If we know exactly who will be up for replacement during the upcoming term the presidential elections will become all about potential supreme court nominees.  I like the mystery and arbitrariness of not knowing who will be able to replace a judge.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> With an 80% vote necessary to get confirmed, you just have the seats go vacant.  The gulf in legal philosophies is wide.  The left basically believes in the living Constitution...the Constitution needs to adapt through judicial rulings that recognize we need a modern and expansive federal government, and also to recognize fundamental human rights, even if they are not enumerated in the Constitution itself.  The right is more divided in its legal philosophy but generally favors a stricter reading of the Constitution and a government limited by the enumerated rights and responsibilities set out in the Constitution.
> 
> Note this is different than the question of whether they are "independent".   "independent" means they don't answer to any other branch of government or to the public at large.
> 
> SCOTUS as a political arbitrator works in a system where the ideologies aren't too far divided.  But what we have now is a fundamental difference of opinion over what the Constitution is intended to actually do...which is why it's no longer working.  So SCOTUS has become a political football because whoever controls it gets their interpretation of what the Constitution actually does.  There isn't a whole lot of middle ground here either, thanks to the scope of what the government has expanded into it...you either believe one or the other.


I was purposely setting the bar inordinately high on the basis that a lifetime appointment should have an inordinately high bar.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*"The cult wants to anoint scientists as 21st century scientist-priests who receive divine truth and convey it to the masses.* To question the priests is to question the divine and thus out oneself as a heretic (i.e. a science-denier). I fear that precious few scientists will be able to resist the lure of celebrity and adulation that followers of the cult are offering them. They may not realize until it’s too late that it’s a devil’s bargain. In exchange for becoming the scientist-priests of the science-cult mob, these former scientists find that they are as much the captives of the mob as they are its leaders. True science is driven by evidence and almost always leads in surprising and unpredictable directions (because the universe is far more complicated than we can imagine). *The cult-of-science is nothing more than scientism married to confirmation bias. Thus, the conclusions of the new scientist-priests are actually dictated to them by the mob. In return for status and celebrity (and even some money), the scientist-priests then furnish the mob with a sciency-sounding justification for their predetermined conclusions.  Thus, “follow the science” really means to follow the crowd, with some science jargon judiciously applied, like lipstick to a pig.* The whole thing is gross to watch."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Modern science is indeed a remarkable and wonderful human achievement. Yet it loses all claim to objectivity and to the noble name “science” the moment any of its conclusions are regarded as incontestable justifications for using state power to engineer society. “Science” so used is a synonym for “god.” And the politicians, bureaucrats, and “experts” who today seek to rule according to such “science” differ in no intellectual or ethical way from the chieftains, monarchs, and apparatchiks in the past who coercively lorded over others in the name of fulfilling the will of god or of achieving what is ordained by “History.”-- Donny Boudreaux


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Even “at the height of my Marxism, I read William F. Buckley and Edmund Burke, because I’d gotten in school, particularly in a ninth-grade science class, the idea of evidence, the importance of evidence and the need to test evidence.”--Sowell


----------



## lafalafa

Don't know who the so-called experts are but this from Yahoo is interesting








						Arizona's pandemic outlook worries experts as mask and vaccine mandate battles rage
					

Arizona has caught up to New York when it comes to reported deaths per capita - even though the latter was ravaged by the coronavirus early in the pandemic before treatments or vaccines were developed. Some health experts worry Arizona could be headed for a deepening crisis as winter approaches...




					news.yahoo.com
				




"Now, Ducey - who is vaccinated and has urged others to get vaccinated but argues it should be a  - is engaged in a battle against the federal government on several fronts in an effort to prevent mask mandates in schools and vaccine mandates in workplaces in his state."

How does "personal choice" turn into or is portrayed to be a battle vs the Feds?   Without getting into party affiliation or opinions about that governor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

“*Intellectuals have romanticized *cultures that have left people mired in poverty, ignorance, violence, disease and chaos, *while trashing *cultures that have led the world in prosperity, education, medical advances and law and order. *Intellectuals give people who have the handicap of poverty the further handicap of a sense of victimhood.”*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Slaves of The Master State*

*No matter which euphemism governments employ for their permission slips, they are nothing less than slave passes. *Coercive medical procedures to regain a scintilla of joy in your life is not freedom. *Paternalistic privileges, granted temporarily in return for compliance, is not freedom.* If you need the permission of powerful people to enter a cinema, pub or restaurant, you do not live in a free society. *If a Health Secretary tells you that you must roll up your sleeve and get jabbed ‘to keep your freedoms’, you have none. If said Health Secretary holds your liberty like a pawn ticket, redeemable only by slavish obedience, your liberty is lost.*
…..
*Likewise in the Antebellum South passes (also known as tickets or permits) allowed slaves to leave the plantation for a specific purpose and a designated timeframe*, and had to be shown to any white person on demand.

I*t is highly unlikely that any slaves considered themselves to be free whilst in the possession of such a document.* Indeed the pass was tangible proof of one’s bondage. I*f your freedom depends on the whims of another human being, you are not free. In the words of Benjamin Franklin, freedom ‘is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature’. Yet today we are witnessing the mass acceptance of politicians’ right to bestow and remove freedoms at will. *Indeed there is celebration at being granted a morsel of ‘freedom’ demonstrated by the viral video of a Sydney woman overcome with emotion at being allowed to enjoy a drink in a pub. Despite this joy, it is hardly freedom day in New South Wales when mandatory masking still remains in place, residents cannot leave the state, numbers remain capped for weddings and funerals and at neither type of event may food or drink be consumed whilst standing.

*For those in the state of Victoria, who believed they were close to being free again, the odious Premier Dan Andrews has moved the goalposts once more. Boosters are now the only route to liberty. *Andrews nonchalantly warned Victorians that he will be keeping reins on their freedom probably until well into 2022: ‘It won’t be your first and second dose, it will be, “have you had your third?”’ *Still feel like celebrating that freedom your government has so generously granted?*


----------



## Desert Hound

lafalafa said:


> Don't know who the so-called experts are but this from Yahoo is interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arizona's pandemic outlook worries experts as mask and vaccine mandate battles rage
> 
> 
> Arizona has caught up to New York when it comes to reported deaths per capita - even though the latter was ravaged by the coronavirus early in the pandemic before treatments or vaccines were developed. Some health experts worry Arizona could be headed for a deepening crisis as winter approaches...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now, Ducey - who is vaccinated and has urged others to get vaccinated but argues it should be a  - is engaged in a battle against the federal government on several fronts in an effort to prevent mask mandates in schools and vaccine mandates in workplaces in his state."
> 
> How does "personal choice" turn into or is portrayed to be a battle vs the Feds?   Without getting into party affiliation or opinions about that governor.


Lets look at deaths shall we? What are we seeing? A trend down like most of the states in the US.

The sky is not falling.


Now for some agenda driven reporting that creates the wrong impression.

_Arizona on Saturday reported 3,145 cases of the coronavirus and 30 deaths from covid-19 -* twice as many daily cases as the state was reporting three months ago.* The governor's office did not immediately respond to an emailed request for comment._

Lets look at the case chart. So 3 months ago what was happening? Oh...that was right before the delta wave came in. As you look at the chart, the one we are coming off of. 

So for those not paying attention to the data they are trying to create a sense of panic. We are coming off the delta wave. Cases are decreasing. It is misleading to say the least when they say cases are higher now vs 3 months ago without reporting about the wave, the crest and the fact that cases and deaths are now dropping off. 

This is why people don't trust the press. They are driving an agenda vs giving correct info.


----------



## crush

Pooch: "Get your hands off me now before I bite your nose off you POD!!!

D


----------



## Grace T.

lafalafa said:


> Don't know who the so-called experts are but this from Yahoo is interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arizona's pandemic outlook worries experts as mask and vaccine mandate battles rage
> 
> 
> Arizona has caught up to New York when it comes to reported deaths per capita - even though the latter was ravaged by the coronavirus early in the pandemic before treatments or vaccines were developed. Some health experts worry Arizona could be headed for a deepening crisis as winter approaches...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now, Ducey - who is vaccinated and has urged others to get vaccinated but argues it should be a  - is engaged in a battle against the federal government on several fronts in an effort to prevent mask mandates in schools and vaccine mandates in workplaces in his state."
> 
> How does "personal choice" turn into or is portrayed to be a battle vs the Feds?   Without getting into party affiliation or opinions about that governor.


Pretty worthless partisan piece:

1. NY wasn't bad because it got hit early.  NY was bad because Cuomo sent infected people back into nursing homes.
2. AZ isn't experiencing a huge major third wave.  It's numbers are actually (slowly) falling like the rest of the country









						Arizona COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Arizona COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




3. They are just speculating on what will happen without an facts and again relying on "masks".  It's possible but they don't know.  But it's a political hit by the media, just like they do with Florida sometime.
4. The chief difference in deaths will be NY is 65% fully vaxxed.  AZ is only 50%...but both AZ and NY have a lot of natural immunity (how much no one is really sure...but that will make the difference one way or another).
5. The other issue is the indigenous population in AZ for which, particularly on the reservations, the death rate has been shockingly high.


----------



## espola

lafalafa said:


> Don't know who the so-called experts are but this from Yahoo is interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arizona's pandemic outlook worries experts as mask and vaccine mandate battles rage
> 
> 
> Arizona has caught up to New York when it comes to reported deaths per capita - even though the latter was ravaged by the coronavirus early in the pandemic before treatments or vaccines were developed. Some health experts worry Arizona could be headed for a deepening crisis as winter approaches...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now, Ducey - who is vaccinated and has urged others to get vaccinated but argues it should be a  - is engaged in a battle against the federal government on several fronts in an effort to prevent mask mandates in schools and vaccine mandates in workplaces in his state."
> 
> How does "personal choice" turn into or is portrayed to be a battle vs the Feds?   Without getting into party affiliation or opinions about that governor.


You didn't read the rest of the article?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You didn't read the rest of the article?


Certainly AZ has had it's challenges with COVID, especially amongs certain populations.  This particular article has drawn quite the chuckle amongst the medical/science community.  The WA Post could have done a  better job of getting real experts to weight in on AZ COVID issues.   There are many out there. Yet they choose to quote 2 academics who are as poliltical as they come.  

Drive by journalism at it's best.


----------



## crush

Adolf Eichmann back in the day.  He looks like someone I saw on the news the other day.  Guesses?


----------



## crush

*It Wasn’t Just Beagles, Bats and Monkeys – Fauci’s NIH Also Funded Medical Experiments on AIDS Orphans in NY City* ((Crush has also been told aborted baby parts like little heart, lungs, brain and so much more were used in experiments that it will make you puke when you all are shown the truth.  Let the purge begin!!!  A true scientist in every way possible this freak is))


----------



## crush

I agree 100% with you Paul!!!


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I agree 100% with you Paul!!!
> 
> 
> View attachment 11953


President Trump authorized killing beagle puppies with sandflies, and you're trying to blame Dr. Fauci?  Funny how the Trump appointee who ran the Department of Health and Human Services at the time, which oversees NIH, was the president of the US division of the pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly.  Makes you wonder why Azar was so ok testing experimental drugs on beagle puppies.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> President Trump authorized killing beagle puppies with sandflies, and you're trying to blame Dr. Fauci?  Funny how the Trump appointee who ran the Department of Health and Human Services at the time, which oversees NIH, was the president of the US division of the pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly.  Makes you wonder why Azar was so ok testing experimental drugs on beagle puppies.


Looks like Daddy continues to live rent free in someone's empty head.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MicPaPa said:


> Looks like Daddy continues to live rent free in someone's empty head.


It thinks using Trump is a trigger point.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker4Life said:


> It thinks using Trump is a trigger point.


He has lots of triggers that sets him off.


----------



## watfly

I don't care who is responsible for the beagle thing, but whoever is responsible should have their vocal chords removed.  I doubt its Biden, but it wouldn't matter much since his vocal chords have been effectively removed already.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't care who is responsible for the beagle thing, but whoever is responsible should have their vocal chords removed.  I doubt its Biden, but it wouldn't matter much since his vocal chords have been effectively removed already.


Is it too soon to call BDS?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Is it too soon to call BDS?


I would say no if you are referring to the patient himself.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Looks like Daddy continues to live rent free in someone's empty head.


Ha ha.  All of you have done nothing but whine about Fauci.  Today you're complaining that beagles in Tunisia had their vocal cords removed during the Trump administration to justify why you're anti-vaxxers.  That makes so much sense.  If anyone is living rent free in someone's head, it's Fauci with all of you.  

Let me help you out with some Fauci hate from beyond the grave of your now dead comrades in whose heads Fauci also lived rent free.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I also see dad and little Husker, mean Golden Gate and the lying Espola holding things up for dear life.  You guys chose this path of cheating and because your the last one to hold things up for Joe and his party, well then, when you let go it will crush you.  Crush tried to warn you for four a very long time but you dug heal in the ground ((pride before the fall)) and white knuckled a lie to the end of the line and no pass go and collect $200, only go directly to jail.  We caught you!!  Busted!!
> 
> View attachment 11912


Ha ha.  This guy thought the same meme was super duper funny.  Now he is dead.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qfxbn3


----------



## GoldenGate

The government is coming for your children.  You should storm the Capitol - again. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/health/covid-19-young-kids-vaccine-fda-discussion/index.html

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you crush how you reconcile your failure to provide for your family with your anti-government, anti-"socialist" rugged individualism beliefs.  Presumably, you've been sucking taxpayers dry from all the unemployment, SDI, subsidized health care, free public education, etc., right? What do you do when your kids need healthcare? Just pick up some horse paste at the local tractor supply since it's cheap and cures everything? 

Speaking of horse paste, how do you feel knowing it was also tested on the exact same fetal cell lines (aka aborted fetuses) as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines? What about Pepto? Tums? Aspirin? Tylenol? Cosmetics? Hydroxy-q?


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> The government is coming for your children.  You should storm the Capitol - again. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/health/covid-19-young-kids-vaccine-fda-discussion/index.html
> 
> BTW, I've been meaning to ask you crush how you reconcile your failure to provide for your family with your anti-government, anti-"socialist" rugged individualism beliefs.  Presumably, you've been sucking taxpayers dry from all the unemployment, SDI, subsidized health care, free public education, etc., right? What do you do when your kids need healthcare? Just pick up some horse paste at the local tractor supply since it's cheap and cures everything?
> 
> Speaking of horse paste, how do you feel knowing it was also tested on the exact same fetal cell lines (aka aborted fetuses) as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines? What about Pepto? Tums? Aspirin? Tylenol? Cosmetics? Hydroxy-q?


Is crush in your head or t or both?  You got serious issues you little weirdo WHO wants to know way too much about crush and his personal family business.  You actually threaten my child on this forum and now you want all this new information.  Lawyers are funny....lol!


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Is crush in your head or t or both?  You got serious issues you little weirdo WHO wants to know way too much about crush and his personal family business.  You actually threaten my child on this forum and now you want all this new information.  Lawyers are funny....lol!


Fauci tortures puppies is a good one. Definitely more compelling to anti-vaxxers than the microchip thing or how vaccines rewrite your dna and cause autismi. So much fun.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Fauci tortures puppies is a good one. Definitely more compelling to anti-vaxxers than the microchip thing or how vaccines rewrite your dna and cause autismi. So much fun.


----------



## Kicker4Life

GoldenGate said:


> The government is coming for your children.  You should storm the Capitol - again. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/health/covid-19-young-kids-vaccine-fda-discussion/index.html
> 
> BTW, I've been meaning to ask you crush how you reconcile your failure to provide for your family with your anti-government, anti-"socialist" rugged individualism beliefs.  Presumably, you've been sucking taxpayers dry from all the unemployment, SDI, subsidized health care, free public education, etc., right? What do you do when your kids need healthcare? Just pick up some horse paste at the local tractor supply since it's cheap and cures everything?
> 
> Speaking of horse paste, how do you feel knowing it was also tested on the exact same fetal cell lines (aka aborted fetuses) as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines? What about Pepto? Tums? Aspirin? Tylenol? Cosmetics? Hydroxy-q?


What is this Horse Paste you keep referencing?


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> What is this Horse Paste you keep referencing?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> View attachment 11961


On the other hand, claiming Fauci tortures puppies is a bit of a let down after accusing him of murdering babies and orphans, right?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


>


For your next conspiracy theory let me recommend that Alec Baldwin has resorted to shooting anti-vaxxers, and the CDC is covering it up by listing them as Covid-19 deaths, although they only died "with" Covid-19.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Here’s a letter to the _Wall Street Journal_:

Editor:

Most American progressives today deny that their proposals have anything to do with socialism. But these denials ring hollow. As “A Banking Regulator Who Hates Banks” (Oct. 25) makes plain, the Biden administration has fully embraced genuine, no-qualifiers-necessary, honest-to-badness socialism.

*Among the roles for government desired by Comptroller of the Currency nominee Saule Omarova is that which resides at the core of all socialist and communist programs: control by the state of the allocation of capital. It is the exercise of this role that Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek, in the interwar years, proved would severely impoverish the denizens of any socialist economy.

Who with even a modicum of knowledge of history doubts that such impoverishment was indeed a universal feature of every such socialist regime? And who with even a modicum of common sense supposes that America’s fate under socialism would differ?*

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux
Professor of Economics
and
Martha and Nelson Getchell Chair for the Study of Free Market Capitalism at the Mercatus Center
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA 22030


----------



## Brav520

The proposal of taxes on unrealized gains , is absolute bonkers

does that mean the government will give me a check if my portfolio drops 20% in a year, what about the equity in my home  ?

fortunately, I don’t think it stands a chance of passing


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Is it too soon to call BDS?


You're a fool, not to mention a shit stain on the fabric of this great country.
________________________________

*Pentagon Confirms 450 Americans Still Stranded in Afghanistan – Far More Than Previously Estimated*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> The proposal of taxes on unrealized gains , is absolute bonkers
> 
> does that mean the government will give me a check if my portfolio drops 20% in a year, what about the equity in my home  ?
> 
> fortunately, I don’t think it stands a chance of passing


Remind me again, when were the adults going to take charge?


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Remind me again, when were the adults going to take charge?


You aren’t feeling the unity?


----------



## Brav520

MicPaPa said:


> You're a fool, not to mention a shit stain on the fabric of this great country.
> ________________________________
> 
> *Pentagon Confirms 450 Americans Still Stranded in Afghanistan – Far More Than Previously Estimated*


Afghanistan was a success , it went as planned

You see , it was always the plan to leave Americans stranded over there


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> The proposal of taxes on unrealized gains , is absolute bonkers


Its insane.  This mentality that we should penalize the working, saving and investing is mind boggling.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> Its insane.  This mentality that we should penalize the working, saving and investing is mind boggling.


...It's the same mentality of those wanting to get rid of gifted and talented programs in schools... I'm sure @MacDre can best describe this line of thinking.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Brav520 said:


> The proposal of taxes on unrealized gains , is absolute bonkers
> 
> does that mean the government will give me a check if my portfolio drops 20% in a year, what about the equity in my home  ?
> 
> fortunately, I don’t think it stands a chance of passing


That would kill the Bond market.  But we've never had smart folks in charge of the economy anyway.


----------



## what-happened

crush said:


> Is crush in your head or t or both?  You got serious issues you little weirdo WHO wants to know way too much about crush and his personal family business.  You actually threaten my child on this forum and now you want all this new information.  Lawyers are funny....lol!


You are defintely in his head.  It now feels squeamish attacking a minor, now it's playing Billy Bad Ass on someone over 16.  It's a step in the right direction at least.  Horse paste and all.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Fauci tortures puppies is a good one. Definitely more compelling to anti-vaxxers than the microchip thing or how vaccines rewrite your dna and cause autismi. So much fun.


The torturing puppies thing was a lie?  Who lied about it?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> For your next conspiracy theory let me recommend that Alec Baldwin has resorted to shooting anti-vaxxers, and the CDC is covering it up by listing them as Covid-19 deaths, although they only died "with" Covid-19.


Nahhh, he and his crew just did't know shit about guns and stuff.  Guns go bang, the ones wth those conical things on the end of the brass  or steel  thingy can kill people.  Make money at all cost, even if it means killing members of your own crew.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Its insane.  This mentality that we should penalize the working, saving and investing is mind boggling.


You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.

So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.  

Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.
> 
> So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.
> 
> Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.


Jesus effing christ...finally someone who knows what they're talking about.

Thanks @dad4


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.
> 
> So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.
> 
> Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.


You missed the punch line - tax the loan against unrealized gains. That's different that taxing the unrealized gains.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Looks like Daddy continues to live rent free in someone's empty head.


Pisses you off I see. trump suckers would love nothing more than for everyone to just forget the attempted coup and the other trump insanity.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.
> 
> So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.
> 
> Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.


So what about the working class person who pays income tax, invests their money into a stock that turns $5k into $10k by the end of the year.  Now said person has to pay tax on the $5k his stock grew.  Then in Feb the stock crashes and is now valued at $5k again. But he owes taxes on the $5k of “unrealized gains”.  Now he only has his $5k and a large tax bill and nothing to show for it.
Taxed when he earns it, taxed on gains he never saw.  How is that fair?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> So what about the working class person who pays income tax, invests their money into a stock that turns $5k into $10k by the end of the year.  Now said person has to pay tax on the $5k his stock grew.  Then in Feb the stock crashes and is now valued at $5k again. But he owes taxes on the $5k of “unrealized gains”.  Now he only has his $5k and a large tax bill and nothing to show for it.
> Taxed when he earns it, taxed on gains he never saw.  How is that fair?


That would not be fair, and it's not what's in the proposal.  Here is a more sane analysis --









						It’s Not About Farms: Don’t Let Lies Crush Biden’s Tax Plan
					

Several former Democratic members of Congress have joined a campaign to misrepresent President Biden’s proposal to close a huge tax loophole for wealthy people with capital gains. This proposed reform is the cornerstone of the president’s tax plan. If lawmakers fall for the lies, Biden's plan...




					itep.org


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Jesus effing christ...finally someone who knows what they're talking about.
> 
> Thanks @dad4


Is Lord!!!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Pisses you off I see. trump suckers would love nothing more than for everyone to just forget the attempted coup and the other trump insanity.



It's the Christian thing to forgive sins.

(Ignoring the technicality that the sinner is supposed to confess the sins first)


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> So what about the working class person who pays income tax, invests their money into a stock that turns $5k into $10k by the end of the year.  Now said person has to pay tax on the $5k his stock grew.  Then in Feb the stock crashes and is now valued at $5k again. But he owes taxes on the $5k of “unrealized gains”.  Now he only has his $5k and a large tax bill and nothing to show for it.
> Taxed when he earns it, taxed on gains he never saw.  How is that fair?


The reality of the proposal is that if a working-class person invests in stock that turns $5k into $10k by the end of his life, and his heirs later sell the stock for $20k, the capital gains tax they owe is the difference between their sale price and the original basis of $5k.  Under the current loophole, the heirs would owe CG taxes between $20k and $10k, the "stepped-up basis" established on the fair market value at the tome of inheritance.  If they sell for $5k, they would owe no CG tax.

The 1976 tax code revisions used that "original basis" formula, but within a year wealthy persons paid to have the stepped-up basis loophole written into the law.  No one has been able to pay enough to get it taken back out.

And the whole example is moot unless the total of all such transactions exceeds $1 million.


----------



## Brav520

__





						News Net Daily - News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.
					

News Net Daily | News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.



					newsnetdaily.com


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> The proposal of taxes on unrealized gains , is absolute bonkers
> 
> does that mean the government will give me a check if my portfolio drops 20% in a year, what about the equity in my home  ?
> 
> fortunately, I don’t think it stands a chance of passing


The first thing you should ask yourself is, "Who told me this false story?"

The second thing is, "Should I continue to believe his stories in the future?"


----------



## crush

espola said:


> It's the Christian thing to forgive sins.
> 
> (Ignoring the technicality that the sinner is supposed to confess the sins first)


It's Whacky Wednesday with Pastor Espola's takes on forgiveness and confessions.  Can you give example please, thanks


----------



## espola

espola said:


> The first thing you should ask yourself is, "Who told me this false story?"
> 
> The second thing is, "Should I continue to believe his stories in the future?"


And the meta-question for all of us is "What does this have to do with the Vaccine thread?"


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News Net Daily - News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.
> 
> 
> News Net Daily | News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.
> 
> 
> 
> newsnetdaily.com


Black Rock, Bill Gates, George Soros are buying everything and above asking price.  My pal just sold everything ((his four houses)) and he's got a plan to get some land far away and sit this out.  The Dam will break soon and we all know it.  I feel like I'm waiting for some storm to hit.  I just dont know what kind of storm.  My pal and his wife are millionaires now he just said.  I said, "oh really.  Please share."  His wife sells blood thinner and he does loans.  I told him "congrats on becoming a real millionaire."  He feels he reached his goal in life and I'm happy for him.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> And the meta-question for all of us is "What does this have to do with the Vaccine thread?"


Nothing, because Washington State just said they had no flu cases in 2021.  That is a record.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News Net Daily - News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.
> 
> 
> News Net Daily | News Net Daily , an integrated news site covering all the news from all over the world, with a new vision that covers all the news as it happens from our different sources.
> 
> 
> 
> newsnetdaily.com


I don't know what newsnetdaily is (unless it is an heir to the WorldNetDaily fortune) but they copied Mr. Palmer's article wholesale from WSJ without any attribution (not even the author's full name).


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I don't know what newsnetdaily is (unless it is an heir to the WorldNetDaily fortune) but they copied Mr. Palmer's article wholesale from WSJ without any attribution (not even the author's full name).


Hey, tell Golden Gate to wake his ass up so we can all go Whacky Wednesday together.  Wake up Husker too.  Tell those loser friends of yours to bring their debate game.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I don't know what newsnetdaily is (unless it is an heir to the WorldNetDaily fortune) but they copied Mr. Palmer's article wholesale from WSJ without any attribution (not even the author's full name).


I think it just a copy and paste site since WSJ has a paywall.


----------



## crush

*70 Percent of COVID-19 Deaths Both in Sweden and UK in September Were “Fully Vaccinated”*


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> I think it just a copy and paste site since WSJ has a paywall.


Paywalls exist to get revenues from readers, not to enable plagiarists.


----------



## crush

Oh, and by the way fellas and Grace T; soon and very soon none of you WHO got the jabs will be fully vaccinated.  Yup, true as the sun is rising right now in socal.  You will need to get that booster to be considered "fully" vaccinated.  I know, I know how you feel when goal post are moved, trust me.  The only issue is this is not sports were talking about.  This is about your life and your health.  You should NOT be injecting experimental bat, beagle, human and monkey mix that is then mixed with magnets.  All created by Dr. Fraud, Dr. Frances, Bill and others.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Paywalls exist to get revenues from readers, not to enable plagiarists.


dude , save some chicks for the rest of us bro


----------



## crush

NoCal is a joke and why I say Socal is #1 in everything.  They just shut down another In and Out. 









						ANIMAL STYLE: In-N-Out's response to being shut down for defying COVID rules is golden
					

Northern California health officials shut down another In-N-Out Burger restaurant location Tuesday for allowing indoor dining without checking patrons for proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## Brav520

Government has vaccine mandates and wants private businesses to be their enforcement arm

seems A little whack to me . Good for in and out . They are obviously being targeted .


----------



## crush




----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...It's the same mentality of those wanting to get rid of gifted and talented programs in schools... I'm sure @MacDre can best describe this line of thinking.


I think all kids should receive an education that maximizes their potential.  In terms of the politics of the GATE debate, I’ve been on both sides of the issue so I do my analysis on a case by case basis.  Generally, I think there’s too much exclusion with GATE programs but I also served as a research assistant to my liberal Jewish professor David Levine when he represented the Asian kids of San Francisco vs. the NAACP’s lawsuit against Lowell HS exclusionary admissions standards.

Wheels up to Tallahassee now for FSU’s Thursday game and FAMU’s homecoming.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.
> 
> So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.
> 
> Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.





NorCalDad said:


> Jesus effing christ...finally someone who knows what they're talking about.
> 
> Thanks @dad4


I'd stick with math, your way out of your league here.  The basis resets on inheritance because they pay huge estate taxes, 40% in fact. Which is a whole other issue, estate taxes are effectively double taxation in many cases.

If we want to talk about closing some loopholes like earned interest that's a different story.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Government has vaccine mandates and wants private businesses to be their enforcement arm
> 
> seems A little whack to me . Good for in and out . They are obviously being targeted .


Yup.  I see managers who love this kind power and enforcement.  I got rebuked by a boss lady who told me mask or get out the other day.  I also know other people who have had mental anguish and much stress because owners want them to be mask enforcers with no training.  As Dale Harris used to say, 'This is whack."


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grandpa duck
Nononono
Crush


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Yup.  I see managers who love this kind power and enforcement.  I got rebuked by a boss lady who told me mask or get out the other day.  I also know other people who have had mental anguish and much stress because owners want them to be mask enforcers with no training.  As Dale Harris used to say, 'This is whack."


You think In and Out is the only one not checking status , of course not .


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> And the meta-question for all of us is "What does this have to do with the Vaccine thread?"


Ha, ha.  Just one of many tangents on this thread.  It's like when you get on the internet to search for best Thai restaurant near you and end up watching Youtube videos of live performances of your favorite band from 30 years ago...or is that just me.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Grandpa duck
> Nononono
> Crush


Good morning Husker.  WTF is up with the Cargo ships on the West Coast?  I want to here what YOU think the reason for the delay.  Only you answer, thanks


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> You think In and Out is the only one not checking status , of course not .


Well, they do love Jesus as a company so that has me thinking.  Plus, remember the "Hold the Line" video I put here?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Ha, ha.  Just one of many tangents on this thread.  It's like when you get on the internet to search for best Thai restaurant near you and end up watching Youtube videos of live performances of your favorite band from 30 years ago...or is that just me.


hahahahha as so many lose everything.  Time to wakie up wat fly.  Seriously, we need your ass on deck now!!!


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> It's the Christian thing to forgive sins.
> 
> (Ignoring the technicality that the sinner is supposed to confess the sins first)


Ah, it's the "Orange Man hurt me" cowards giving each other reach-a-rounds.

You fools elect a babbling idiot with dementia who now has a clearly distinguishable 10-month record, yet strangely you never mention his record or policies. But hey, at least there are no more mean tweets causing you to wet yourselves and lose sleep over. Use your TDS to deflect all you want, but you pussies own the shit show we are now witnessing.

BTW, disparaging Christianity shows your cowardness - now do Islam and prove me wrong, I'll wait.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You should realize that we are talking about unrealized gains that are never taxed.  The basis resets on inheritance.
> 
> So, if you are rich, you live very well, but pay zero income taxes.  You just borrow against your unrealized gains, and pass the whole thing on to your kids.
> 
> Meanwhile, people who work for a living are paying 20-40% of their income in tax.  And the owner is paying zero, because all that money he just made doesn’t technically count as income.


Cherry Picking doesnʻt start ʻtill next May.  What nonsense.


----------



## MicPaPa

MacDre said:


> I think all kids should receive an education that maximizes their potential.  In terms of the politics of the GATE debate, I’ve been on both sides of the issue so I do my analysis on a case by case basis.  Generally, I think there’s too much exclusion with GATE programs but I also served as a research assistant to my liberal Jewish professor David Levine when he represented the Asian kids of San Francisco vs. the NAACP’s lawsuit against Lowell HS exclusionary admissions standards.
> 
> Wheels up to Tallahassee now for FSU’s Thursday game and FAMU’s homecoming.


So, if everyone is not at the highest common denominator, then everyone needs to be at the lowest common denominator? 

These are not fence sitting issues, take a stand.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Ah, it's the "Orange Man hurt me" cowards giving each other reach-a-rounds.
> 
> You fools elect a babbling idiot with dementia who now has a clearly distinguishable 10-month record, yet strangely you never mention his record or policies. But hey, at least there are no more mean tweets causing you to wet yourselves and lose sleep over. Use your TDS to deflect all you want, but you pussies own the shit show we are now witnessing.
> 
> BTW, disparaging Christianity shows your cowardness - now do Islam and prove me wrong, I'll wait.


Wipe your cheek off little buckaroo and quit sniveling.


----------



## crush

Indictments are being unsealed.  Mr. Baker had his chat with Mr. Bull Durham yesterday or this week.  @Brav520, check out this "Hold the Line."  In and out gave permission for logo in this Q video and that pissed off the folks in NoCal.  It is what it is.  Jesus is the King and no one can take away what the Lion of Judah will do soon 









						HOLD THE LINE - PREPARE FOR THE STORM MAGA - WHERE WE GO ONE WE GO ALL
					

Boggles the mind how many Earthlings remain blissfully unaware that this war has been raging behind the veil since 2016 and already won. Everything we are watching on MSM is intended to show you how bad it would have gotten if the patriots hadn't s…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wipe your cheek off little buckaroo and act like a man.


Classic projection, predictable.

BTW, still waiting.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wipe your cheek off little buckaroo and quit sniveling.


At least your willing to show your face on here.   Most of the cowards I debate quit because I win most of the time....lol.  The biggest coward of them all ignores the great debater who always wins.  I'm not smarter, I just have a really good connection in my brain and it just gives me the answers to everything about creation and the truth.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> Ah, it's the "Orange Man hurt me" cowards giving each other reach-a-rounds.
> 
> You fools elect a babbling idiot with dementia who now has a clearly distinguishable 10-month record, yet strangely you never mention his record or policies. But hey, at least there are no more mean tweets causing you to wet yourselves and lose sleep over. Use your TDS to deflect all you want, but you pussies own the shit show we are now witnessing.
> 
> BTW, disparaging Christianity shows your cowardness - now do Islam and prove me wrong, I'll wait.


How does that disparage Christianity?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> How does that disparage Christianity?


He/she is upset and not making any sense.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> He/she is upset and not making any sense.


Nothing new.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Pisses you off I see. trump suckers would love nothing more than for everyone to just forget the attempted coup and the other trump insanity.


Ahh, yes, let's get those trespassers.  Forget about everything else that matters to Americans.  We are sitting on the edge of our seat waiting for these "coup" participants to be charged for crazy insurrection things like trespassing, theft, etc.  Sure, there are valid charges being levied against the 684, but come on.  

You crack me up.  It's as if jb has rallied all of the angry old men, given them lecterns and microphones, and trained them to violenty whisper into them.


----------



## crush

Hey Rev. Espola, where is Golden Gate?  Husker, have you now stopped talking to me as well as Father Espola?  Does Cat have your tongue?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> And the meta-question for all of us is "What does this have to do with the Vaccine thread?"


Itʻs called an ekonomic lockdown.  Same fear mongering, same QE. Duh!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That would not be fair, and it's not what's in the proposal.  Here is a more sane analysis --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s Not About Farms: Don’t Let Lies Crush Biden’s Tax Plan
> 
> 
> Several former Democratic members of Congress have joined a campaign to misrepresent President Biden’s proposal to close a huge tax loophole for wealthy people with capital gains. This proposed reform is the cornerstone of the president’s tax plan. If lawmakers fall for the lies, Biden's plan...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> itep.org


Below from @espola's link - How can you spend $3 million if you don't realize the gain? I'm not talking about borrowing against it - that's a separate issue. How can you go into Tesla and pay cash for your car with unrealized gains?

Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> hahahahha as so many lose everything.  Time to wakie up wat fly.  Seriously, we need your ass on deck now!!!


I'm not sure what deck I need to be on.  I'm not a bandwagon guy.  Anything I, or anyone else, says on here is effectively just virtue signaling unless you are actually doing something tangible in your own community.  I'm on board with helping kids, I will let the adults fend for themselves.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Below from @espola's link - How can you spend $3 million if you don't realize the gain? I'm not talking about borrowing against it - that's a separate issue. How can you go into Tesla and pay cash for your car with unrealized gains?
> 
> Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job.


I guess I miss your point -- how can you spend it without first realizing the capital gain or borrowing against it?


----------



## Grace T.

A moving essay on autism, COVID protocols, and the limitations of "trust the experts".



			https://archive.ph/2021.10.27-141347/https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/i-have-been-through-this-before-bauer


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ahh, yes, let's get those trespassers.  Forget about everything else that matters to Americans.  We are sitting on the edge of our seat waiting for these "coup" participants to be charged for crazy insurrection things like trespassing, theft, etc.  Sure, there are valid charges being levied against the 684, but come on.
> 
> You crack me up.  It's as if jb has rallied all of the angry old men, given them lecterns and microphones, and trained them to violenty whisper into them.


Everything else?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A moving essay on autism, COVID protocols, and the limitations of "trust the experts".
> 
> 
> 
> https://archive.ph/2021.10.27-141347/https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/i-have-been-through-this-before-bauer


There are a lot of unfounded statements verging on fantasies in there.

Let me summarize:  Bettelheim was insane, therefore all doctors are insane.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> There are a lot of unfounded statements verging on fantasies in there.


Your incredibly inconsistent when it comes to recognizing unfounded statements.  Its almost as if its intentional.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I guess I miss your point -- how can you spend it without first realizing the capital gain or borrowing against it?


As I read it, the post creates a misleading equivalence between income earned at a job and unrealized capital gains. My point is that you can't actually spend an unrealized capital gain as is stated in the post. Just making sure I am reading it correctly.

"But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job."


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> "But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job."


That's an unfounded statement, not just bordering on fantasy, but actual fantasy.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> There are a lot of unfounded statements verging on fantasies in there.
> 
> Let me summarize:  Bettelheim was insane, therefore all doctors are insane.


I see someone only read the first handful of paragraphs of the article.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That's an unfounded statement, not just bordering on fantasy, but actual fantasy.


I have another point to make but I want to make sure I am reading it correctly as it appears to me to be blatantly misleading.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have another point to make but I want to make sure I am reading it correctly as it appears to me to be blatantly misleading.


It's 100% incorrect.  Maybe the author has the same misguided idea like Dad4 that because you can borrow against it, it is somehow income.  Borrowings are not income and any attempt by the left to somehow characterize it as such displays a fundamental misunderstanding or intentional ignorance of basic financial concepts.


----------



## Desert Hound

Taxing unrealized cap gains is one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time. 

The claim is it will mainly affect the rich. Even if that were the case, it is bad policy. 

What always happens though is when they go "after the rich" those policies AFFLICT most everyone else. 

It is amazing people think that taxing unrealized cap gains would be a productive exercise.


----------



## crush

I dedicate this song to Father Espola and his Choir Boy Husker Du and from the Darkside, the little devil himself, Golden Gate......Trick or a Treat?  You three are so Vanilla in love with each other and your party of liars & cheats, that their is no hope for you.  You drank the poison   Yuk and yikes all in one.  Enjoy the fake life you fakes and enjoy the song. This is totally your party now.  The D's lip sing politics and push a scam with a plan that Bill, Jeff and Tony all put together with the other cheaters and those WHO got bought, bribed and or blackmailed by wood chipper. Enjoy the song and please everyone, listen for your enjoyment.  It's so Espola now.....lol!!!


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Your incredibly inconsistent when it comes to recognizing unfounded statements.  Its almost as if its intentional.


It looks like you agree that there are unfounded statements in there.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I see someone only read the first handful of paragraphs of the article.


I read the whole thing.  I have no complaints with the first few paragraphs.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

“Since the Athenian plague in 430 B.C. … we have known about natural immunity. So it’s strange that suddenly people are questioning that.”—Kulldorff


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Yup.  I see managers who love this kind power and enforcement.  I got rebuked by a boss lady who told me mask or get out the other day.  I also know other people who have had mental anguish and much stress because owners want them to be mask enforcers with no training.  As Dale Harris used to say, 'This is whack."


The best way to eliminate the mental anguish and stress on employees who are trying to keep people from killing their staff is to wear a mask, dumbshit.  The only thing that is "whack" is idiots like you claiming you shouldn't be asked to wear masks in businesses because you treat people like shit when they ask you to wear a mask. Seriously, you idiots are just trying to rationalize being a**holes.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It's 100% incorrect.  Maybe the author has the same misguided idea like Dad4 that because you can borrow against it, it is somehow income.  Borrowings are not income and any attempt by the left to somehow characterize it as such displays a fundamental misunderstanding or intentional ignorance of basic financial concepts.


Just to clarify -- the ITEP article never mentions borrowing against unrealized capital gains.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Taxing unrealized cap gains is one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time.
> 
> The claim is it will mainly affect the rich. Even if that were the case, it is bad policy.
> 
> What always happens though is when they go "after the rich" those policies AFFLICT most everyone else.
> 
> It is amazing people think that taxing unrealized cap gains would be a productive exercise.


Clueless, as usual.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Just to clarify -- the ITEP article never mentions borrowing against unrealized capital gains.


Hence the word "maybe" in my statement.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Oh, and by the way fellas and Grace T; soon and very soon none of you WHO got the jabs will be fully vaccinated.  Yup, true as the sun is rising right now in socal.  You will need to get that booster to be considered "fully" vaccinated.  I know, I know how you feel when goal post are moved, trust me.  The only issue is this is not sports were talking about.  This is about your life and your health.  You should NOT be injecting experimental bat, beagle, human and monkey mix that is then mixed with magnets.  All created by Dr. Fraud, Dr. Frances, Bill and others.


Why do you even care?  You're unemployed and have no desire to do anything besides feed at the socialist trough and talk about how your daughter won a second tier tournament when she was 12, which you call a "national championship".  The only thing you apparently can't do with your unvaccinated arse is eat at two In-n-Outs in the Bay Area.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Just to clarify -- the ITEP article never mentions borrowing against unrealized capital gains.


Hence the word "maybe" in my statement.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> The best way to eliminate the mental anguish and stress on employees who are trying to keep people from killing their staff is to wear a mask, dumbshit.  The only thing that is "whack" is idiots like you claiming you shouldn't be asked to wear masks in businesses because you treat people like shit when they ask you to wear a mask. Seriously, you idiots are just trying to rationalize being a**holes.


You make it so easy though.


----------



## Grace T.

No difference in viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.  If that holds up, a shorter illness period is really the only community spread argument they have left for mandating vaxxes.









						Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant
					

SARS-CoV-2 variant B.1.617.2 (delta) is associated with higher viral loads [[1][1]] and increased transmissibility relative to other variants, as well as partial escape from polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies [[2][2]]. The emergence of the delta variant has been associated with increasing case...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## Desert Hound

In that article you have this for instance.

_Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job._ 

For those not paying attention or who simply do not understand...NO you cannot spend the 3 million until you realize the gain. At that point it is taxed. There is no loophole one is avoiding by not realizing a gain. 

In terms of inheritance? We already have rather high rates of taxation on inheritance when the event occurs. Further if one thinks through the chain of events....income was taxed when earned, taxes had been paid on realized gains, taxes paid on purchases, etc. and then the gov comes back for another rather large bite at inheritance. 

This is more misdirection to get the people who have little understanding of how things work to buy into the proposal. 

_Family farms are plainly not the target of his reform. The target is people like Elon Musk, whose net worth increased by $14 billion over five years, almost entirely in the form of unrealized capital gains that have not been taxed. If Musk simply holds onto his assets until he dies and passes them to his heirs, his billions of unrealized gains escape the income tax forever, thanks to the stepped-up basis rule.  

Most of us work at a job, earn an income from that job, *and pay income taxes on that income every year*. This is not how it works for someone like Elon Musk. *He generates huge amounts of capital gains, and each year he simply decides how much income he will realize. He does not realize most of this income each year, and therefore does not pay income taxes on it*. Ensuring that Musk’s income is taxed at least once is the least we can do to make our tax code fair, and that is what Biden proposes.  _

The above implies he doesn't pay taxes or as many say NOT HIS FAIR SHARE. His money is not sitting in a bank idle. His money is actively invested in a myriad of projects, etc. Funding that helps other biz grow, hire people, creating a LARGER tax base, etc. That is actually rather productive and a net benefit to society. 

You hear people say...so and so buys a fleet of Ferraris or has x amount of mansions. Why isn't he or she instead helping the poor? Again they misunderstand the nature of economics. If said person buys a fleet of Ferraris that keeps people at work. That helps that biz and their workers. It also benefits suppliers to Ferrari, etc. That also generates taxes etc. In other words what many think is wasteful spending is actually used to buy products that put others to work. That is a far more efficient use of funds vs gov taking those funds and distributing them based on political priorities. 

Many/most people do not understand the above. 

Taxing unrealized gains is a terrible idea that would have very bad "unintended" consequences.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> The best way to eliminate the mental anguish and stress on employees who are trying to keep people from killing their staff is to wear a mask, dumbshit.  The only thing that is "whack" is idiots like you claiming you shouldn't be asked to wear masks in businesses because you treat people like shit when they ask you to wear a mask. Seriously, you idiots are just trying to rationalize being a**holes.


You make it so easy though.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> No difference in viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.  If that holds up, a shorter illness period is really the only community spread argument they have left for mandating vaxxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant
> 
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 variant B.1.617.2 (delta) is associated with higher viral loads [[1][1]] and increased transmissibility relative to other variants, as well as partial escape from polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies [[2][2]]. The emergence of the delta variant has been associated with increasing case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


And that argument doesn't really hold up well either on a logical basis. Politics doesn't care however. 

The reality is the vaccine helps prevent serious illness. When vaxxed you still spread it. That rather important fact defeats the purpose of mandates, masks, etc.

The logical conclusion that should follow that realization is that, we have the vax, time to move on with life without restrictions. The virus is here to stay.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Taxing unrealized cap gains is one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time.
> 
> The claim is it will mainly affect the rich. Even if that were the case, it is bad policy.
> 
> What always happens though is when they go "after the rich" those policies AFFLICT most everyone else.
> 
> It is amazing people think that taxing unrealized cap gains would be a productive exercise.


What these punish the rich advocates don't understand, or ignore, is risk.  Many wealthy people have taken significant risk to earn their incomes.  Of course, you will always have a Paris or Hunter that are born into wealth or influence without any identifiable skills, unless snorting coke is considered a skill.  Just hanging out a shingle as a business owner involves a significant amount of risk.  The liability and responsibilities you assume as business owner are incredible.  Most people won't understand that until they sign they front of a check instead of the back of the check.  That's why many people choose to be an employee and take the safe route of a paycheck.  Many wealthy people failed a number of times before they became successful.  Many wealthy took significant risks and leveraged everything they had and often paid employees before they ever earned a profit.  This is why the business owners should get certain tax benefits, for risk and for the fact they employee others.

Now does that mean I'm all in on giving the rich tax breaks, no.  I find it very troubling that someone like Bezos has so many employees on public assistance.  I also find it troubling that the uber rich are getting more wealthy while small business continues to struggle.  Often times tax policy that targets the "rich", ends up hurting "non-corporate" businesses the most.  

I find it incredibly shallow and selfish when someone employed by the government, with no risk of losing their job, with pension benefits, that didn't have to show up for work during the pandemic think others should have to bear a heavier tax burden.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Hence the word "maybe" in my statement.


Hahaha! He completely ignored answering my post. I explicitly excluded borrowing against unrealized capital gains as I would address that separately and the post does not mention borrowing against unrealized gains as how one can "spend" unrealized capital gains - which he verifies. There's only one thing to do now.



espola said:


> That would not be fair, and it's not what's in the proposal.  Here is a more sane analysis --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s Not About Farms: Don’t Let Lies Crush Biden’s Tax Plan
> 
> 
> Several former Democratic members of Congress have joined a campaign to misrepresent President Biden’s proposal to close a huge tax loophole for wealthy people with capital gains. This proposed reform is the cornerstone of the president’s tax plan. If lawmakers fall for the lies, Biden's plan...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> itep.org


Debunked.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> In that article you have this for instance.
> 
> _Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job._
> 
> For those not paying attention or who simply do not understand...NO you cannot spend the 3 million until you realize the gain. At that point it is taxed. There is no loophole one is avoiding by not realizing a gain.
> 
> In terms of inheritance? We already have rather high rates of taxation on inheritance when the event occurs. Further if one thinks through the chain of events....income was taxed when earned, taxes had been paid on realized gains, taxes paid on purchases, etc. and then the gov comes back for another rather large bite at inheritance.
> 
> This is more misdirection to get the people who have little understanding of how things work to buy into the proposal.
> 
> _Family farms are plainly not the target of his reform. The target is people like Elon Musk, whose net worth increased by $14 billion over five years, almost entirely in the form of unrealized capital gains that have not been taxed. If Musk simply holds onto his assets until he dies and passes them to his heirs, his billions of unrealized gains escape the income tax forever, thanks to the stepped-up basis rule.
> 
> Most of us work at a job, earn an income from that job, *and pay income taxes on that income every year*. This is not how it works for someone like Elon Musk. *He generates huge amounts of capital gains, and each year he simply decides how much income he will realize. He does not realize most of this income each year, and therefore does not pay income taxes on it*. Ensuring that Musk’s income is taxed at least once is the least we can do to make our tax code fair, and that is what Biden proposes.  _
> 
> The above implies he doesn't pay taxes or as many say NOT HIS FAIR SHARE. His money is not sitting in a bank idle. His money is actively invested in a myriad of projects, etc. Funding that helps other biz grow, hire people, creating a LARGER tax base, etc. That is actually rather productive and a net benefit to society.
> 
> You hear people say...so and so buys a fleet of Ferraris or has x amount of mansions. Why isn't he or she instead helping the poor? Again they misunderstand the nature of economics. If said person buys a fleet of Ferraris that keeps people at work. That helps that biz and their workers. It also benefits suppliers to Ferrari, etc. That also generates taxes etc. In other words what many think is wasteful spending is actually used to buy products that put others to work. That is a far more efficient use of funds vs gov taking those funds and distributing them based on political priorities.
> 
> Many/most people do not understand the above.
> 
> Taxing unrealized gains is a terrible idea that would have very bad "unintended" consequences.


Will our hypothetical billionaire be allowed to write off the value of those Ferraris once they decline when he leaves the dealer lot?

If my bitcoin investment declines, I get to write that off too, right?

How bout my dog....every year he gets older I get to write that off too right?

If my kid gets thrown off his soccer team, do I get to write off all the lessons and club fees as "unrealized losses"?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! He completely ignored answering my post. I explicitly excluded borrowing against unrealized capital gains as I would address that separately and the post does not mention borrowing against unrealized gains as how one can "spend" unrealized capital gains - which he verifies. There's only one thing to do now.
> 
> 
> 
> Debunked.


If you really want some humor, click on the author's bio.  His work experience is working for Bernie and the SSA.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'd stick with math, your way out of your league here.  The basis resets on inheritance because they pay huge estate taxes, 40% in fact. Which is a whole other issue, estate taxes are effectively double taxation in many cases.
> 
> If we want to talk about closing some loopholes like earned interest that's a different story.


If I earn a billion dollars by writing a great book series, I pay income tax on all of it.

But, if I earn a billion dollars by founding a great company, I don’t pay a penny.  

I’m not seeing the fairness in this system.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'd stick with math, your way out of your league here.  The basis resets on inheritance because they pay huge estate taxes, 40% in fact. Which is a whole other issue, estate taxes are effectively double taxation in many cases.
> 
> If we want to talk about closing some loopholes like earned interest that's a different story.


If I earn a billion dollars by writing a great book series, I pay income tax on all of it.

But, if I earn a billion dollars by founding a great company, I don’t pay a penny. 

I’m not seeing the fairness in this system.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Below from @espola's link - How can you spend $3 million if you don't realize the gain? I'm not talking about borrowing against it - that's a separate issue. How can you go into Tesla and pay cash for your car with unrealized gains?
> 
> Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job.


How can your spend X million dollars without realizing capital gains?

There are lawyers who earn a million dollars a year answering that very question.  The answer gets a lot more complicated than “borrow against it”.

As met61 likes to say, we’re being played.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No difference in viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.  If that holds up, a shorter illness period is really the only community spread argument they have left for mandating vaxxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant
> 
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 variant B.1.617.2 (delta) is associated with higher viral loads [[1][1]] and increased transmissibility relative to other variants, as well as partial escape from polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies [[2][2]]. The emergence of the delta variant has been associated with increasing case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


Out of your league again, Grace.   Almost all the participants in that study had symptomatic cases.  

That means the study had a massive selection bias- it excluded people whose vaccine kept them from developing symptoms.

The authors know this, which is why their conclusion doesn’t at all support your theory of vax/unvax equivalence:

“Combined with other studies, these data indicate that vaccinated as well as unvaccinated individuals infected with the Delta variant might transmit infection, though other studies suggest this may be relatively inefficient. “

Or, in lay terms, don’t assume you are completely immune to transmission just because you are vaccinated.

Are you done posting studies and misrepresenting their contents?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> So what about the working class person who pays income tax, invests their money into a stock that turns $5k into $10k by the end of the year.  Now said person has to pay tax on the $5k his stock grew.  Then in Feb the stock crashes and is now valued at $5k again. But he owes taxes on the $5k of “unrealized gains”.  Now he only has his $5k and a large tax bill and nothing to show for it.
> Taxed when he earns it, taxed on gains he never saw.  How is that fair?


You just explained why the proposal to tax unrealized gains applies only to those with a billion dollars in assets.  

If you are a working class guy with a billion dollars in assets, can I recommend you consider quitting your day job?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Ahh, yes, let's get those trespassers.  Forget about everything else that matters to Americans.  We are sitting on the edge of our seat waiting for these "coup" participants to be charged for crazy insurrection things like trespassing, theft, etc.  Sure, there are valid charges being levied against the 684, but come on.
> 
> You crack me up.  It's as if jb has rallied all of the angry old men, given them lecterns and microphones, and trained them to violenty whisper into them.


My neighbor died on 1/6, she was lead to slaughter by people with a distinct agenda. She was used, many others were as well. Whipped into a frenzy then pushed to the front to do the dirty work by those with serious intentions.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Out of your league again, Grace.   Almost all the participants in that study had symptomatic cases.
> 
> That means the study had a massive selection bias- it excluded people whose vaccine kept them from developing symptoms.
> 
> The authors know this, which is why their conclusion doesn’t at all support your theory of vax/unvax equivalence:
> 
> “Combined with other studies, these data indicate that vaccinated as well as unvaccinated individuals infected with the Delta variant might transmit infection, though other studies suggest this may be relatively inefficient. “
> 
> Or, in lay terms, don’t assume you are completely immune to transmission just because you are vaccinated.
> 
> Are you done posting studies and misrepresenting their contents?


Wow you are in a bad mood today again.

Fine...fair point...I guess another relevant question then is does it keep you from being symptomatic if infected...

But if this holds up it undermines the argument that the viral loads in the symptomatic vaccinated are lower than the symptomatic unvaxxed.  That, in addition to the declining efficiency of the vaccines over time as well as that it's generally suspected that against the Delta the efficiency numbers presented by pharma are inflated, if they hold up still really undermines the case for vaccine mandates.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If I earn a billion dollars by writing a great book series, I pay income tax on all of it.
> 
> But, if I earn a billion dollars by founding a great company, I don’t pay a penny.
> 
> I’m not seeing the fairness in this system.


Facts not in evidence.  Billionaires on occasion don't pay taxes in a given year.  However, that is relatively rare and when it does happen its typically a tax deferral, or tax shifting, and not tax avoidance.  The saying the only thing certain is death and taxes, is not only true its often death that triggers a lot of taxes, often on things that have already been taxed.   That having been said I have no objection to closer scrutiny of the private foundations that the rich set up as tax planning tools.  However, taxing unrealized gains is just plain stupid.

Your example of a book seller and a great company illustrate your fundamental misunderstanding of taxes and business.  I'm going to reluctantly use Bezos as an example.  He allegedly didn't pay income taxes twice in the span of about 15 years.  Amazon however has paid billions in income taxes (albeit at what I would consider a low effective tax rate).  Amazon has paid billions in its employers share of payroll taxes, its paid millions maybe billions in property taxes, I bet its paid millions or billions in other non-income taxes. (It still pisses me off he has a significant number of employees on public assistance)

As an author with a great book, how many people do you personally employ on a full time basis?  How much do you contribute to a local communities tax base through property and sales tax compared to a billion dollar company?  I could go on an on, but hopefully your beginning to understand the stupidity of comparing the two.


----------



## Kicker4Life

One could argue the Tax law should apply to people like this:









						Newsom's Questionable Estate Tax Filings - San Francisco News
					

SACRAMENTO—According to a July 25 report by Jennifer Van Laar with Redstate, 3 months after California Governor Gavin Newsom was gifted his $3.7 million estate in Fair Oaks, he received a $2.695 million tax-free cash out. The 12,000 square foot mansion was built on 8-plus acres of land beside...




					www.thesfnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If I earn a billion dollars by writing a great book series, I pay income tax on all of it.


This isn't really true either.  If you write a great book series, unless you also own a publishing company, a lot of the revenue will go to the book publisher.  Part of the income you'll get is as an advance and that advance will be taxed in the year that it is earned.  The rest of it is payable as royalties on an as earned basis in the year which it is earned (not all up front because it's such a great book series that it's gone up in value and you pay for it all up front even though you may not see the royalty income years into the future).  Further, those royalties are not treated as salary since they are a rights payment, not a fee for "work", so you, unlike the shlub editor working at the publishing company, don't have to pay certain federal and state deductions on such income.  Furthermore (assuming you hold onto the copyright of the work) the value of your copyright may rise given the success of the book series, but the book publisher (and not you) see the increase in that value because you negotiated a poor royalty structure on your payments.

Bad analogy because a book owner (besides the naked copyright) doesn't really control the whole value of the book.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> The best way to eliminate the mental anguish and stress on employees who are trying to keep people from killing their staff is to wear a mask, dumbshit.  The only thing that is "whack" is idiots like you claiming you shouldn't be asked to wear masks in businesses because you treat people like shit when they ask you to wear a mask. Seriously, you idiots are just trying to rationalize being a**holes.


The constantly aggrieved are simply that, assholes looking for yet another excuse to whine and cry. They don’t do personal responsibility, they play the blame game.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Will our hypothetical billionaire be allowed to write off the value of those Ferraris once they decline when he leaves the dealer lot?
> 
> If my bitcoin investment declines, I get to write that off too, right?
> 
> How bout my dog....every year he gets older I get to write that off too right?
> 
> If my kid gets thrown off his soccer team, do I get to write off all the lessons and club fees as "unrealized losses"?


I thought you were a lawyer.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> My neighbor died on 1/6, she was lead to slaughter by people with a distinct agenda. She was used, many others were as well. Whipped into a frenzy then pushed to the front to do the dirty work by those with serious intentions.


I'm sorry your neighbor died on 1/6 and I'm sorry she got caught up with a bunch of idiots.  No one deserved to die.  Everyone that breached the Capitol deserves to by fully prosecuted in accordance with the law.  How fucked up was it to see people being beaten up with an pole holding the American flag.  That's the picture I can't get out of my head.

You knew this was coming...however, if were talking about the same person, wasn't that individual an adult?  They are not a victim of others, they're a victim of their own choices, of course, unless they were forced against their will.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I thought you were a lawyer.


I thought you could keep your doctor.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The constantly aggrieved are simply that, assholes looking for yet another excuse to whine and cry. They don’t do personal responsibility, they play the blame game.


Wait, what?  You just blamed your neighbors death on others.  I suggest you do a better job of keeping track of your posts, or at least keep your hypocrisy spread out so its not so easily noticeable.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> No difference in viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.  If that holds up, a shorter illness period is really the only community spread argument they have left for mandating vaxxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant
> 
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 variant B.1.617.2 (delta) is associated with higher viral loads [[1][1]] and increased transmissibility relative to other variants, as well as partial escape from polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies [[2][2]]. The emergence of the delta variant has been associated with increasing case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


The CDC data from August, I believe, showed that unvaccinated were 6 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die.

At this point people have chosen, and the risks are evidenced continually.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> In that article you have this for instance.
> 
> _Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job._
> 
> For those not paying attention or who simply do not understand...NO you cannot spend the 3 million until you realize the gain. At that point it is taxed. There is no loophole one is avoiding by not realizing a gain.
> 
> In terms of inheritance? We already have rather high rates of taxation on inheritance when the event occurs. Further if one thinks through the chain of events....income was taxed when earned, taxes had been paid on realized gains, taxes paid on purchases, etc. and then the gov comes back for another rather large bite at inheritance.
> 
> This is more misdirection to get the people who have little understanding of how things work to buy into the proposal.
> 
> _Family farms are plainly not the target of his reform. The target is people like Elon Musk, whose net worth increased by $14 billion over five years, almost entirely in the form of unrealized capital gains that have not been taxed. If Musk simply holds onto his assets until he dies and passes them to his heirs, his billions of unrealized gains escape the income tax forever, thanks to the stepped-up basis rule.
> 
> Most of us work at a job, earn an income from that job, *and pay income taxes on that income every year*. This is not how it works for someone like Elon Musk. *He generates huge amounts of capital gains, and each year he simply decides how much income he will realize. He does not realize most of this income each year, and therefore does not pay income taxes on it*. Ensuring that Musk’s income is taxed at least once is the least we can do to make our tax code fair, and that is what Biden proposes.  _
> 
> The above implies he doesn't pay taxes or as many say NOT HIS FAIR SHARE. His money is not sitting in a bank idle. His money is actively invested in a myriad of projects, etc. Funding that helps other biz grow, hire people, creating a LARGER tax base, etc. That is actually rather productive and a net benefit to society.
> 
> You hear people say...so and so buys a fleet of Ferraris or has x amount of mansions. Why isn't he or she instead helping the poor? Again they misunderstand the nature of economics. If said person buys a fleet of Ferraris that keeps people at work. That helps that biz and their workers. It also benefits suppliers to Ferrari, etc. That also generates taxes etc. In other words what many think is wasteful spending is actually used to buy products that put others to work. That is a far more efficient use of funds vs gov taking those funds and distributing them based on political priorities.
> 
> Many/most people do not understand the above.
> 
> Taxing unrealized gains is a terrible idea that would have very bad "unintended" consequences.


I agree generally with your sentiment. I find inheritance tax in particular to be egregious, and something the very wealthy/rich (legally) avoid. So it really just ends up impacting at the "lowest" end, i.e. those without net cash assets that can be spent on tax planning. Farms in particular should be exempt, specifically if its a working family farm being passed down in the family.

Musk has obviously created a large amount of wealth for himself, but also many others. His large net increases in personal worth are driven by his stock holding (rather than cash he's re-investing). We need more people like him, rather than penalizing people like him.

I doubt anyone is looking to tax pretend money (unrealized gains).


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> My neighbor died on 1/6, she was lead to slaughter by people with a distinct agenda. She was used, many others were as well. Whipped into a frenzy then pushed to the front to do the dirty work by those with serious intentions.


I call BS on this! You are the exact kind of slime that plays this type of drivel. You and that other coward with hurt feelings own the senseless deaths of 13 brave Americans and the leaving behind of many others. Enjoy the clown show dummy.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The CDC data from August, I believe, showed that unvaccinated were 6 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die.
> 
> At this point people have chosen, and the risks are evidenced continually.


1. Granted.
2. The UK data shows that the vaccine might not be holding up as well given the time (still substantially better but not as good as the August rosey numbers).
3. That data really doesn't tell us a whole lot either unless you break up the data into 4 groups: vaccinated and exposed, vaccinated and not exposed, exposed and naturally immune, no novel immunity.
4. Reducing hospitalizations and death numbers however are not a community spread argument for vaccine mandates.  They are an argument that people are too stupid to do what's good for them and should be forced to take the vaccine.  If you feel that way, I'm surprised you'd let people vote, given they make such bad choices.
5. The other problem with 4 is if that's the rationalization for the mandates, there is no justification for vaccinating anyone under 30/20 as their hospitalization/death numbers are already very good (better than vaxxed 50/40 year olds).
6. The argument some have used to advance the mandates is that its because we need to stop community spread.  But if the vaxx is not good at stopping people from falling ill, and if the viral loads in the ill vaxxed and unvaxxed are similar, that means vaccination won't get us to a point where we can eliminate community spread.  It might reduce it, but it won't eliminate it.
7. The next question then is by how much does it reduce it.  If the breakthrough rate is very high, and the viral loads are typically similar, the answer is not much, but we aren't there yet.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> My neighbor died on 1/6, she was lead to slaughter by people with a distinct agenda. She was used, many others were as well. Whipped into a frenzy then pushed to the front to do the dirty work by those with serious intentions.


You are so dramatic.n  Where is the personal responsbility part of this?


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> The CDC data from August, I believe, showed that unvaccinated were 6 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die.
> 
> At this point people have chosen, and the risks are evidenced continually.


What was the breakdown on the unvaccinated in terms of those that had been previously infected, if any?  If were talking unvaccinated, not previously infected, those numbers don't seem unreasonable.  With the possible exception of one poster, I believe everyone here is pro-vaccination.

What risks in particular are you speaking about that have been evidenced and what choices have been made based upon that evidence?


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> What was the breakdown on the unvaccinated in terms of those that had been previously infected, if any?  If were talking unvaccinated, not previously infected, those numbers don't seem unreasonable.  With the possible exception of one poster, I believe everyone here is pro-vaccination.
> 
> What risks in particular are you speaking about that have been evidenced and what choices have been made based upon that evidence?


Here's the page. There are lots of other links which may answer your specific questions as they do layout methods and sources etc.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Not sure where your second Q is going. Vaccinated may get infected, but will be for a shorter period of time, have a lessor chance of hospitalization and a lessor chance of death -  all versus unvaccinated. That's the evidence I was referring to, therefore the opposite are the risks.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Wait, what?  You just blamed your neighbors death on others.  I suggest you do a better job of keeping track of your posts, or at least keep your hypocrisy spread out so its not so easily noticeable.


Note: You fell for the neighbor BS. You may want to know the difference between poster and poser before responding, fence sitting opens one up to this.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I agree generally with your sentiment. I find inheritance tax in particular to be egregious, and something the very wealthy/rich (legally) avoid. So it really just ends up impacting at the "lowest" end, i.e. those without net cash assets that can be spent on tax planning. Farms in particular should be exempt, specifically if its a working family farm being passed down in the family.
> 
> Musk has obviously created a large amount of wealth for himself, but also many others. His large net increases in personal worth are driven by his stock holding (rather than cash he's re-investing). We need more people like him, rather than penalizing people like him.
> 
> I doubt anyone is looking to tax pretend money (unrealized gains).


I generally agree with you on your points, but I'll point out one thing.  As it stands right now if your net assets as a married couple are less than $22 million you don't really need any tax planning.  So being able to afford tax planning shouldn't be a problem.  Although I expect Biden to target a reduction in the estate/gift tax exemption.

But yes, I'm 100% with you that any tax on farms or any type/size of business that would require you to sell the business to pay the estate tax is morally wrong.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Note: You fell for the neighbor BS. You may want to know the difference between poster and poser before responding, fence sitting opens one up to this.


My bad.  I will be careful in the future.  What makes you think I'm a fence sitter?


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Why do you even care?  You're unemployed and have no desire to do anything besides feed at the socialist trough and talk about how your daughter won a second tier tournament when she was 12, which you call a "national championship".  The only thing you apparently can't do with your unvaccinated arse is eat at two In-n-Outs in the Bay Area.


Couldnt help yourself could you?  She was 13 dummy and it ws the top tier at the time.  Any team that wins Far West and the best from Texas wins top tier.  What a loser you have become.  A true laughing off my ass type of fool you have become.


----------



## MacDre

MicPaPa said:


> So, if everyone is not at the highest common denominator, then everyone needs to be at the lowest common denominator?
> 
> These are not fence sitting issues, take a stand.


No.  I think all kids should receive enrichment and an accelerated curriculum.  Those that can’t keep up should be given additional support.  Everyone is a winner and maximizes their potential.  Simple.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> No.  I think all kids should receive enrichment and an accelerated curriculum.  Those that can’t keep up should be given additional support.  Everyone is a winner and maximizes their potential.  Simple.


So you don't believe that some people are just naturally better at mathematics and that everyone is and should do algebra in the 7th grade?

Do you believe the same about soccer....everyone should be playing MLS/ENCL level ball and those that can't keep up should be given additional support?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My bad.  I will be careful in the future.  What makes you think I'm a fence sitter?


Dude, you had to ask me what deck we need you on.  Someday it will smack you in the face...lol.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> So you don't believe that some people are just naturally better at mathematics and that everyone is and should do algebra in the 7th grade?
> 
> Do you believe the same about soccer....everyone should be playing MLS/ENCL level ball and those that can't keep up should be given additional support?


...sure enough, at the most basic and logical level is where the equal outcomes and equity agenda will always crumble.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Dude, you had to ask me what deck we need you on.  Someday it will smack you in the face...lol.


I'm guess I'm just slow, because I've no clue what either of you are talking about.  I'm not offended by being called a fence sitter, just curious how I earned that title.  I suspect we just choose different battles to fight, or at least the enthusiasm with we which we fight them.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'm guess I'm just slow, because I've no clue what either of you are talking about.  I'm not offended by being called a fence sitter, just curious how I earned that title.  I suspect we just choose different battles to fight, or at least the enthusiasm with we which we fight them.


No, not slow at all.  Lazy, yes   You remind me of a few pals I have.  Were all waiting for you to get up on the deck where you belong.  Sleeping down in the Captains Corner is over for you...lol.


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> The constantly aggrieved are simply that, assholes looking for yet another excuse to whine and cry. They don’t do personal responsibility, they play the blame game.


Speaking of that, just today the wife of the Herman Cain Award winner that I knew is blaming the doctors and hospital for his death.  Never mind that they attended the Ken Copeland Ministries anti-vax/mask convention just a few days before the deceased came down with Covid-19. For those others who are similarly fascinated by the complete and utter stupidity of people like him, and the b.s. they believe, here is the video of the exact event he attended just a few days before he started to feel crummy.  2021 Southwest Believers’ Convention: Flashpoint LIVE (5:30 p.m. CT) | Kenneth Copeland Ministries (kcm.org).  It is so funny watching this knowing there are people in the audience who are lapping it all up but will soon die because they listened to it.  

From all the post-mortem comments in his FB fee, he was clearly a swell guy, despite repeatedly mocking people for wearing masks and getting vaccinated, despite his racist and homophobic comments, and although he posted on FB how funny it was to get on a plane knowing he had Covid-19 at the time.  Such a selfless and god-fearing fellow.  So tragic that doctors murdered him. 

By the way, the lion also believed in natural immunity, although it turned out he really believed in natural selection but just didn't know it.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> No.  I think all kids should receive enrichment and an accelerated curriculum.  Those that can’t keep up should be given additional support.  Everyone is a winner and maximizes their potential.  Simple.


You clearly have never tried teaching Algebra to a kid who can’t multiply.

You end up rewriting the entire math book trying to hide from anything which requires numbers bigger than 25, and pass the kid with a C.  

Then, when the poor kid hits Chemistry and Physics, he runs into Planck’s constant and Avogadro’s number.   He can’t handle it, because the math he knows only works on small positive integers.

Congrats, I guess.  One more kid bumped out of STEM because we don’t have the patience to help him where he is.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> How can your spend X million dollars without realizing capital gains?
> 
> There are lawyers who earn a million dollars a year answering that very question.  The answer gets a lot more complicated than “borrow against it”.
> 
> As met61 likes to say, we’re being played.





dad4 said:


> If I earn a billion dollars by writing a great book series, I pay income tax on all of it.
> 
> But, if I earn a billion dollars by founding a great company, I don’t pay a penny.
> 
> I’m not seeing the fairness in this system.


We appear to have an agreement that the post @espola put forward incorrectly equates unrealized capital gains with income. I believe it's a bad idea to tax unrealized gains and several have posted arguments against such a tax.

My eyes glass over when hearing the word "fair" associated with an argument. Fairness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I prefer to aspire to consistency. The key is what "unrealized" means. To me, if gains are unrealized, they have not been considered in any other financial transaction. For a loan or those things "a lot more complicated" that @dad4 mentions, unrealized gains can't be part of the equation. Sadly, I am unfamiliar with use cases that consider unrealized capital gains to acquire real dollars that can be put in a bank account. I'd be interested in hearing s few and seeing if my "solution" applies.

Also, this is not about the vaccine but I'd say we have gotten to the point where the vaccine horse has been beaten beyond recognition and this thread is more about the same cast of characters "solving" world problems that may or may not exist (and identifying unflattering traits in others - always an important objective). We could move this to a different thread if enough people think it's appropriate.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> I thought you were a lawyer.


No.  She went to law school but apparently never actually practiced law. Is anyone really surprised that an equestrian champion who is apparently living off a trust fund and an ex-husband is engaging in scare tactics to misrepresent that this will hurt wage earners, when her real goal is to continue gouging them so that she doesn't have to pay taxes on her mountain of money that she did nothing to earn?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> We appear to have an agreement that the post @espola put forward incorrectly equates unrealized capital gains with income.


No, it doesn't.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> No.  She went to law school but apparently never actually practiced law. Is anyone really surprised that an equestrian champion who is apparently living off a trust fund and an ex-husband is engaging in scare tactics to misrepresent that this will hurt wage earners, when her real goal is to continue gouging them so that she doesn't have to pay taxes on her mountain of money that she did nothing to earn?


I learn more about the legend of Grace every day.


----------



## crush

Grace T, I have to leave.  I think I know what your response will be regarding Little Devil and Papi Espola.  What a pair.  I cant wait to read your rebuttle


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> No, it doesn't.


Your best argument yet. Nice work.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Grace T, I have to leave.  I think I know what your response will be regarding Little Devil and Papi Espola.  What a pair.  I cant wait to read your rebuttle


I don't read EOTL's post (the only one I have blocked)  Don't intend to read anything now.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> In that article you have this for instance.
> 
> _Let’s say you do not sell the asset this year. In this case, you still have a capital gain of $3 million, but the capital gain is “unrealized.”  The tax code does not count capital gains as income until they are realized, meaning you sell the asset. But it is income in the sense that it allows you to spend $3 million, just as if you earned $3 million doing a job._
> 
> For those not paying attention or who simply do not understand...NO you cannot spend the 3 million until you realize the gain. At that point it is taxed. There is no loophole one is avoiding by not realizing a gain.
> 
> In terms of inheritance? We already have rather high rates of taxation on inheritance when the event occurs. Further if one thinks through the chain of events....income was taxed when earned, taxes had been paid on realized gains, taxes paid on purchases, etc. and then the gov comes back for another rather large bite at inheritance.
> 
> This is more misdirection to get the people who have little understanding of how things work to buy into the proposal.
> 
> _Family farms are plainly not the target of his reform. The target is people like Elon Musk, whose net worth increased by $14 billion over five years, almost entirely in the form of unrealized capital gains that have not been taxed. If Musk simply holds onto his assets until he dies and passes them to his heirs, his billions of unrealized gains escape the income tax forever, thanks to the stepped-up basis rule.
> 
> Most of us work at a job, earn an income from that job, *and pay income taxes on that income every year*. This is not how it works for someone like Elon Musk. *He generates huge amounts of capital gains, and each year he simply decides how much income he will realize. He does not realize most of this income each year, and therefore does not pay income taxes on it*. Ensuring that Musk’s income is taxed at least once is the least we can do to make our tax code fair, and that is what Biden proposes.  _
> 
> The above implies he doesn't pay taxes or as many say NOT HIS FAIR SHARE. His money is not sitting in a bank idle. His money is actively invested in a myriad of projects, etc. Funding that helps other biz grow, hire people, creating a LARGER tax base, etc. That is actually rather productive and a net benefit to society.
> 
> You hear people say...so and so buys a fleet of Ferraris or has x amount of mansions. Why isn't he or she instead helping the poor? Again they misunderstand the nature of economics. If said person buys a fleet of Ferraris that keeps people at work. That helps that biz and their workers. It also benefits suppliers to Ferrari, etc. That also generates taxes etc. In other words what many think is wasteful spending is actually used to buy products that put others to work. That is a far more efficient use of funds vs gov taking those funds and distributing them based on political priorities.
> 
> Many/most people do not understand the above.
> 
> Taxing unrealized gains is a terrible idea that would have very bad "unintended" consequences.


Doesn't help that Musk companies have been heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your best argument yet. Nice work.


Your statement came completely out of the blue.  I cut it off quickly.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Your statement came completely out of the blue.  I cut it off quickly.


Out of the blue? You have a Bidenesque memory.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> This isn't really true either.  If you write a great book series, unless you also own a publishing company, a lot of the revenue will go to the book publisher.  Part of the income you'll get is as an advance and that advance will be taxed in the year that it is earned.  The rest of it is payable as royalties on an as earned basis in the year which it is earned (not all up front because it's such a great book series that it's gone up in value and you pay for it all up front even though you may not see the royalty income years into the future).  Further, those royalties are not treated as salary since they are a rights payment, not a fee for "work", so you, unlike the shlub editor working at the publishing company, don't have to pay certain federal and state deductions on such income.  Furthermore (assuming you hold onto the copyright of the work) the value of your copyright may rise given the success of the book series, but the book publisher (and not you) see the increase in that value because you negotiated a poor royalty structure on your payments.
> 
> Bad analogy because a book owner (besides the naked copyright) doesn't really control the whole value of the book.


A better analogy would have been a painter.  But the painting also illustrates the problem with unrealized income.  Let's assume I paint 3 paintings.  One is the new Mona Lisa...everyone raves about it...I donated it though to the espola home for ophans in year 1, though, so it's no longer mine and therefore I haven't realized any value to it, but because of that painting, my fame spreads far and wide and everyone wants to own a Gracey.  The value of my two other paintings goes up (even though they may or may not be as good as my first one hit wonder).  I want to retire from the law, so I decide to sell painting two in year 2.  It's value is locked in at year two, and I am taxed on the entirety of that income, less the painting costs deductions year over year (my first painting having been enough to no longer qualify my painting as a hobby but a profession).  I decide to hold the 3rd painting in year 2 thinking it's value will probably increase after my death to leave to the kids....so I haven't realized the benefit of that painting....I don't even know what that painting will sell for in the future...but the IRS wants to come and tax me for holding painting 3 (even though I haven't sold it) because painting 1 did so well it increased its value (hopefully I haven't gambled away the money from painting 2, or I'm going to be forced to sell the painting 3 anyways to cover the tax on painting 3).

In year 3 I visit espola's home for orphans and get so upset with one of the kids that I slap them.  Everyone is shocked and outraged and I get canceled.  No one wants to own a Gracey....the value of the paintings plummets to less than the cost it made to make the painting.  Painting 1 I don't own so it doesn't matter when espola's home for orphans tosses it in the fire.  Painting 2 is sold and income has been taxed, so it's the problem of whoever it got sold to.  Painting 3, which I've held, has collapsed in value....IRS going to write me a check for the difference since I've already paid the tax?  I've retired so giving me a deduction that particular year doesn't really help.  And what was the value of painting 3...the opinion of some appraiser...what if I had not slapped the ophan in year 3 and decided not to sell the painting until year 4, when the market turned down...did the auditor get the value in year 3 right?  There's some Soviet style central planning right there with auditors telling you how much a painting should be worth rather than the actual market, which fluctuates day to day, telling you what the price is.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your best argument yet. Nice work.


...at least it wasn't in the form of a question, progress.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> So you don't believe that some people are just naturally better at mathematics and that everyone is and should do algebra in the 7th grade?
> 
> Do you believe the same about soccer....everyone should be playing MLS/ENCL level ball and those that can't keep up should be given additional support?


A kid that’s gifted in math may struggle socially or may not be good with language.  The old school singular focus gifted programs that only requires kids work on areas that they like or good at created too many gifted underachievers that quit when things get challenging.

I think it’s better to focus on educating happy and well rounded kids and let cream rise.

I wouldn’t include MLS academies but I do think all soccer players deserve a supportive environment to learn basic fundamentals up until around 13 years old.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A better analogy would have been a painter.  But the painting also illustrates the problem with unrealized income.  Let's assume I paint 3 paintings.  One is the new Mona Lisa...everyone raves about it...I donated it though to the espola home for ophans in year 1, though, so it's no longer mine and therefore I haven't realized any value to it, but because of that painting, my fame spreads far and wide and everyone wants to own a Gracey.  The value of my two other paintings goes up (even though they may or may not be as good as my first one hit wonder).  I want to retire from the law, so I decide to sell painting two in year 2.  It's value is locked in at year two, and I am taxed on the entirety of that income, less the painting costs deductions year over year (my first painting having been enough to no longer qualify my painting as a hobby but a profession).  I decide to hold the 3rd painting in year 2 thinking it's value will probably increase after my death to leave to the kids....so I haven't realized the benefit of that painting....I don't even know what that painting will sell for in the future...but the IRS wants to come and tax me for holding painting 3 (even though I haven't sold it) because painting 1 did so well it increased its value (hopefully I haven't gambled away the money from painting 2, or I'm going to be forced to sell the painting 3 anyways to cover the tax on painting 3).
> 
> In year 3 I visit espola's home for orphans and get so upset with one of the kids that I slap them.  Everyone is shocked and outraged and I get canceled.  No one wants to own a Gracey....the value of the paintings plummets to less than the cost it made to make the painting.  Painting 1 I don't own so it doesn't matter when espola's home for orphans tosses it in the fire.  Painting 2 is sold and income has been taxed, so it's the problem of whoever it got sold to.  Painting 3, which I've held, has collapsed in value....IRS going to write me a check for the difference since I've already paid the tax?  I've retired so giving me a deduction that particular year doesn't really help.  And what was the value of painting 3...the opinion of some appraiser...what if I had not slapped the ophan in year 3 and decided not to sell the painting until year 4, when the market turned down...did the auditor get the value in year 3 right?  There's some Soviet style central planning right there with auditors telling you how much a painting should be worth rather than the actual market, which fluctuates day to day, telling you what the price is.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> A kid that’s gifted in math may struggle socially or may not be good with language.  The old school singular focus gifted programs that only requires kids work on areas that they like or good at created too many gifted underachievers that quit when things get challenging.
> 
> I think it’s better to focus on educating happy and well rounded kids and let cream rise.
> 
> I wouldn’t include MLS academies but I do think all soccer players deserve a supportive environment to learn basic fundamentals up until around 13 years old.



Well...I give you kuddos at least for being consistent....no club/elite ball until age 13.  Future Pulisic plays with the fat kid that can barely kick.  You are a man of principle, I will say that.

"gifted underachievers that quit when things get challenging"....that's an argument that the gifted child wasn't challenged enough....more tiers not less.

"gifted in math may struggle socially"....they can be put into a gifted math class....no reason to take them out socially from the school and because they are gifted in math doesn't mean they should be in honors English


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


"Oh Magoo...you've done it again, old boy!"


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> ...at least it wasn't in the form of a question, progress.


Oh he just fell right back into old habits.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> You clearly have never tried teaching Algebra to a kid who can’t multiply.
> 
> You end up rewriting the entire math book trying to hide from anything which requires numbers bigger than 25, and pass the kid with a C.
> 
> Then, when the poor kid hits Chemistry and Physics, he runs into Planck’s constant and Avogadro’s number.   He can’t handle it, because the math he knows only works on small positive integers.
> 
> Congrats, I guess.  One more kid bumped out of STEM because we don’t have the patience to help him where he is.


I would like to think the vast majority of kids can not only learn algebra but master it if supported properly.  Once the kids have a mastery of Algebra they can complete all computational math, Chemistry, and Physics.

I think the kid in your example needs an IEP or is experiencing problems at home.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Speaking of that, just today the wife of the Herman Cain Award winner that I knew is blaming the doctors and hospital for his death.  Never mind that they attended the Ken Copeland Ministries anti-vax/mask convention just a few days before the deceased came down with Covid-19. For those others who are similarly fascinated by the complete and utter stupidity of people like him, and the b.s. they believe, here is the video of the exact event he attended just a few days before he started to feel crummy.  2021 Southwest Believers’ Convention: Flashpoint LIVE (5:30 p.m. CT) | Kenneth Copeland Ministries (kcm.org).  It is so funny watching this knowing there are people in the audience who are lapping it all up but will soon die because they listened to it.
> 
> From all the post-mortem comments in his FB fee, he was clearly a swell guy, despite repeatedly mocking people for wearing masks and getting vaccinated, despite his racist and homophobic comments, and although he posted on FB how funny it was to get on a plane knowing he had Covid-19 at the time.  Such a selfless and god-fearing fellow.  So tragic that doctors murdered him.
> 
> By the way, the lion also believed in natural immunity, although it turned out he really believed in natural selection but just didn't know it.


It’s not funny it’s sad. It’s sad how many people have been convinced to protest intelligence by risking their lives and the lives of others. Many of these people claim to be motivated by pious intentions, but from my POV they are clearly more closely aligned with evil. Karma can be deadly.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> No, not slow at all.  Lazy, yes   You remind me of a few pals I have.  Were all waiting for you to get up on the deck where you belong.  Sleeping down in the Captains Corner is over for you...lol.


Apparently I can't hear that dog whistle.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MacDre said:


> I would like to think the vast majority of kids can not only learn algebra but master it if supported properly.  Once the kids have a mastery of Algebra they can complete all computational math, Chemistry, and Physics.
> 
> I think the kid in your example needs an IEP or is experiencing problems at home.


The Problem With Math is English.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo...you've done it again, old boy!"


You did much better with the book author explanation.

Many here just keep repeating and thus reinforcing the false statements made about the proposal to close a 40-year-old tax loophole.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You did much better with the book author explanation.
> 
> Many here just keep repeating and thus reinforcing the false statements made about the proposal to close a 40-year-old tax loophole.


Meh.  I didn’t make the book analogy.  If you are dealing with creative assets the painting is better (but it also illustrates the problem with unrealized value for something which is not market prices day to day like a business or a house).


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Problem With Math is English.


Math has gotten much easier now that arithmetic is mechanized and more time can be spent on theoretical concepts.  









						e to the( i pi) = - Wolfram|Alpha
					

Wolfram|Alpha brings expert-level knowledge and capabilities to the broadest possible range of people—spanning all professions and education levels.




					www.wolframalpha.com
				




The class will now explore why that is true.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> A better analogy would have been a painter.  But the painting also illustrates the problem with unrealized income.  Let's assume I paint 3 paintings.  One is the new Mona Lisa...everyone raves about it...I donated it though to the espola home for ophans in year 1, though, so it's no longer mine and therefore I haven't realized any value to it, but because of that painting, my fame spreads far and wide and everyone wants to own a Gracey.  The value of my two other paintings goes up (even though they may or may not be as good as my first one hit wonder).  I want to retire from the law, so I decide to sell painting two in year 2.  It's value is locked in at year two, and I am taxed on the entirety of that income, less the painting costs deductions year over year (my first painting having been enough to no longer qualify my painting as a hobby but a profession).  I decide to hold the 3rd painting in year 2 thinking it's value will probably increase after my death to leave to the kids....so I haven't realized the benefit of that painting....I don't even know what that painting will sell for in the future...but the IRS wants to come and tax me for holding painting 3 (even though I haven't sold it) because painting 1 did so well it increased its value (hopefully I haven't gambled away the money from painting 2, or I'm going to be forced to sell the painting 3 anyways to cover the tax on painting 3).
> 
> In year 3 I visit espola's home for orphans and get so upset with one of the kids that I slap them.  Everyone is shocked and outraged and I get canceled.  No one wants to own a Gracey....the value of the paintings plummets to less than the cost it made to make the painting.  Painting 1 I don't own so it doesn't matter when espola's home for orphans tosses it in the fire.  Painting 2 is sold and income has been taxed, so it's the problem of whoever it got sold to.  Painting 3, which I've held, has collapsed in value....IRS going to write me a check for the difference since I've already paid the tax?  I've retired so giving me a deduction that particular year doesn't really help.  And what was the value of painting 3...the opinion of some appraiser...what if I had not slapped the ophan in year 3 and decided not to sell the painting until year 4, when the market turned down...did the auditor get the value in year 3 right?  There's some Soviet style central planning right there with auditors telling you how much a painting should be worth rather than the actual market, which fluctuates day to day, telling you what the price is.


...again, put all this logic in a book, you'll have a bestseller...hurry, before the lefty loons voted in by mindless sheep tax away all forms of incentives for creativity and innovation.

...henceforth, this form of logic and common sense will be known as The Gracey Theory...in fact, moving forward all positions and arguments must be measured against The Gracey Theory.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh.  I didn’t make the book analogy.  If you are dealing with creative assets the painting is better (but it also illustrates the problem with unrealized value for something which is not market prices day to day like a business or a house).


The unrealized value in question in the tax proposal has to do with bumping the basis for calculating capital gains on an inheritance, not a cockamamie tale of painters being "canceled" because of misbehavior.  No one is proposing an annual tax on gains, but that is the scare story you are participating in spreading.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Many here just keep repeating and thus reinforcing the false statements made about the proposal to close a 40-year-old tax loophole.


It's not a loophole its a fundamental change to the definition of income.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Apparently I can't hear that dog whistle.


Wat Fly, I read people for a living.  However, I can;t do it if someone where's a mask.  My read on you is this.  You truly want to believe in God and know that something brought us all together on this beautiful planet.  The ocean and all the colors of the Universe is one big, Yes, God is real.  It's so easy for me to believe and I say that with humility.  He/Mother Earth loves you to the moon & back.  I know you know, we all have a good side and naughty side.  Some call that a true self and false self or one's ego and alter ego.  I love you man and know when the time comes to get your ass on right deck, you won;t let America down.  Playing it safe is easy btw.  I bet 100% when the real call goes out you will find the true light and right deck to go to.  It will be your choice too.  I don't ignore people because I like to debate all walks of the spirit realm.  EOTL and his side kicks Long Game and Golden Gate are not playing around.  Evil means business and the darkness actually think they can upset God and win this war on humanity.  I swear these little devil monsters will not be around soon and all will be able to walk freely, give someone a hug, no more mask and just free to worship and free to date and be with anyone you want.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> It's not a loophole its a fundamental change to the definition of income.


Remember he's supposedly a conservative, albeit a weak-minded coward mentally short-circuited by Trump, who helped usher in this garbage and the corresponding shit show we're all currently living through. So, of course he's flopping around in the pen trying to catch the pig and put lipstick on it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The unrealized value in question in the tax proposal has to do with bumping the basis for calculating capital gains on an inheritance, not a cockamamie tale of painters being "canceled" because of misbehavior.  No one is proposing an annual tax on gains, but that is the scare story you are participating in spreading.


Again, I wasn't the one who raised the book as the analogy.  My comment was limited to the painting is the better one if we are going to deal in creative fixed assets


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It's not a loophole its a fundamental change to the definition of income.


No, it's not.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Again, I wasn't the one who raised the book as the analogy.  My comment was limited to the painting is the better one if we are going to deal in creative fixed assets


Oh...and you can't do this unless you have an active daily market for the good in question


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh.  I didn’t make the book analogy.  If you are dealing with creative assets the painting is better (but it also illustrates the problem with unrealized value for something which is not market prices day to day like a business or a house).


"he IRS wants to come and tax me for holding painting 3" is a fantasy in line with the current obfuscations.  Is that because you were misled?  Or you don't understand how capital gains works?  Or you are deliberately lying?  Is there another choice?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Oh...and you can't do this unless you have an active daily market for the good in question


Among other errors.


----------



## Brav520

ITunes top 10 song list is interesting


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> No, it's not.


I'd suggest you educate yourself.  Both WSJ and WAPO have good articles on why taxing unrealized gains is likely unconstitutional because its a wealth tax which  is prohibited by the constitution.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'd suggest you educate yourself.  Both WSJ and WAPO have good articles on why taxing unrealized gains is likely unconstitutional because its a wealth tax which  is prohibited by the constitution.


I suggest you educate yourself on what is actually in the proposed tax law changes.

I am also amused by the proposition on the concept that "wealth tax" is unconstitutional since it is the foundation of the funding of most local and state governments.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> Well...I give you kuddos at least for being consistent....no club/elite ball until age 13.  Future Pulisic plays with the fat kid that can barely kick.  You are a man of principle, I will say that.
> 
> "gifted underachievers that quit when things get challenging"....that's an argument that the gifted child wasn't challenged enough....more tiers not less.
> 
> "gifted in math may struggle socially"....they can be put into a gifted math class....no reason to take them out socially from the school and because they are gifted in math doesn't mean they should be in honors English


I actually agree with a lot of of what you’re saying. But, I also think most schools have problems meeting the needs of gifted math students and the pursuit of excellence in math becomes socially isolating very fast.

Yep basic fundamentals until 13 and we can stop pretending like bad fundamentals are a style of play.  And FYI, one of my favorite players in TJ is a fat kid that dances like a ballerina when he receives the ball


----------



## MicPaPa

Speaking of artists and their paintings.

As I recall someone else saying - You're being played!

________________________________

*Signed Picasso paintings selling for $100,000 less than Hunter Biden's.*


----------



## MicPaPa

MacDre said:


> I actually agree with a lot of of what you’re saying. But, I also think most schools have problems meeting the needs of gifted math students and the pursuit of excellence in math becomes socially isolating very fast.
> 
> Yep basic fundamentals until 13 and we can stop pretending like bad fundamentals are a style of play.  And FYI, one of my favorite players in TJ is a fat kid that dances like a ballerina when he receives the ball


I never thought of a math class as a social event, maybe therein lies the problem.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I suggest you educate yourself on what is actually in the proposed tax law changes.
> 
> I am also amused by the proposition on the concept that "wealth tax" is unconstitutional since it is the foundation of the funding of most local and state governments.


Again, I suggest you read the articles instead of just shooting from hip.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "he IRS wants to come and tax me for holding painting 3" is a fantasy in line with the current obfuscations.  Is that because you were misled?  Or you don't understand how capital gains works?  Or you are deliberately lying?  Is there another choice?


Yeah I was responding to dad4s nonsensical example of a creative asset and pointing out some things are difficult to assess value on (a farm, a creative object, a business, a house) unless there’s an active market (stocks frozen concentrated orange juice)


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah I was responding to dad4s nonsensical example of a creative asset and pointing out some things are difficult to assess value on (a farm, a creative object, a business, a house) unless there’s an active market (stocks frozen concentrated orange juice)


Sure.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Again, I suggest you read the articles instead of just shooting from hip.


I can't read the articles because of the paywalls, but the WAPO headline I can read says "
*A wealth tax is a good idea — if we had a different Supreme Court*


----------



## MacDre

MicPaPa said:


> I never thought of a math class as a social event, maybe therein lies the problem.


Correct.  This is why most that excel in math are boring socially inept people.  I’m arguing that there’s a better way…


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> I actually agree with a lot of of what you’re saying. But, I also think most schools have problems meeting the needs of gifted math students and the pursuit of excellence in math becomes socially isolating very fast.
> 
> Yep basic fundamentals until 13 and we can stop pretending like bad fundamentals are a style of play.  And FYI, one of my favorite players in TJ is a fat kid that dances like a ballerina when he receives the ball


If you have 1 kid that can pass the ball really well and has a good first touch, he’s not going to be learning very much from the kid that can’t complete a pass or when kid 1 gives him a weighted pass kid 2 gets megged and has to chase the ball down. Kid 1 quickly gets frustrated and can’t develop if the others can’t pass to him and kid 2 gets frustrated because no one passes the ball to him in the game because kids are smart and they know he’ll lose it.  Kid 1 is playing soccer 4 times a week while kid 2 barely likes practice and whines and complains— I’ve told the story how my kid when he was 8 wanted to do extras and asked his teammates to practice but none of them wanted to…because they had other sports or Disneyland annual passes that had gone unused.  It’s why ayso ultimately failed and we got club differentiation by levels. 

same with math. It’s just as tedious for the kid that wants to learn math and is curious in the 3rd grade about negative numbers while his classmate couldn’t care less about it

where you get the issue with both is where the parents start to intervene and push becauseyou have to keep up with the Jones’s and be on x and y elite team.  Remember the conversation a few months back???  We can have elite goalkeepers at ages 8 and 9.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> Correct.  This is why most that excel in math are boring socially inept people.  I’m arguing that there’s a better way…


On the other hand, there are long fascinating books on topics in number theory and abstract algebra that assume little more than high school algebra as a starting point.


----------



## crush

Math in the wrong hands is dangerous.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I would like to think the vast majority of kids can not only learn algebra but master it if supported properly.  Once the kids have a mastery of Algebra they can complete all computational math, Chemistry, and Physics.
> 
> I think the kid in your example needs an IEP or is experiencing problems at home.


_*The*_ kid?  You think it’s only one kid in Algebra who doesn’t know their times tables?

Go volunteer at your high school's tutoring center.

10-20% of the class will have trouble with 8x7 or 9x6.

 About half will have trouble with integer long division.

More than 80% will have trouble adding fractions.

You gonna put all 80% on an IEP?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"In retrospect, it seems clear that the Great Barrington authors were on target in doubting the advisability of sweeping lockdowns. -Kulldorff


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I can't read the articles because of the paywalls, but the WAPO headline I can read says "
> *A wealth tax is a good idea — if we had a different Supreme Court*


Imagine that.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> _*The*_ kid?  You think it’s only one kid in Algebra who doesn’t know their times tables?
> 
> Go volunteer at your high school's tutoring center.
> 
> 10-20% of the class will have trouble with 8x7 or 9x6.
> 
> About half will have trouble with integer long division.
> 
> More than 80% will have trouble adding fractions.
> 
> You gonna put all 80% on an IEP?


You're referencing failures that are a result of neglect that happened well before high school.  Our schools, are failing kids big time.  I don't blame teachers or the schools for this, but rather the lack of funding (at least in CA).   I can remember when I was in public schools in SoCal there were hardly any private schools.  Maybe a parochial school here and there (I see you Mater Dei).  I actually have no idea what the landscape looks like now down there, but in NorCal, it's pretty insane how many private schools there are.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> You're referencing failures that are a result of neglect that happened well before high school.  Our schools, are failing kids big time.  I don't blame teachers or the schools for this, but rather the lack of funding (at least in CA).   I can remember when I was in public schools in SoCal there were hardly any private schools.  Maybe a parochial school here and there (I see you Mater Dei).  I actually have no idea what the landscape looks like now down there, but in NorCal, it's pretty insane how many private schools there are.


I'm going to pull a @Grace T. here, but I was in GATE.  I don't think dumbing down public education is a great direction, but there were serious problems with GATE when I was in it.  Primarily, the parents of all the GATE kids were high motivated and deeply involved in their kids lives.  There was an inherent inequality about that.  So I can see where @MacDre is coming from. 

Bringing this back to vaccines, first, I want to say that this entire thread has been incredibly entertaining (in a good way). While I don't agree with a lot of what many you have to say, I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two and laugh about it.  In a couple of weeks when we're getting our youngers vaccinated I will, no doubt, be thinking of you all.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> You're referencing failures that are a result of neglect that happened well before high school.  Our schools, are failing kids big time.  I don't blame teachers or the schools for this, but rather the lack of funding (at least in CA).   I can remember when I was in public schools in SoCal there were hardly any private schools.  Maybe a parochial school here and there (I see you Mater Dei).  I actually have no idea what the landscape looks like now down there, but in NorCal, it's pretty insane how many private schools there are.


It’s actually really hard to start a private school.  There’s the issue of land, licenses, funding and it’s hard to get people to build into an untried experience.  In my neck of the woods Harvard westlake Campbell hall viewpoint Buckley and Sierra canyon have been around for decades. Oaks is the newcomer on the block and took massive investment by a church to get off the ground. The catholic schools like chaminade crespi and notre dame have been around longer.   If any thing some private schools like pinecrest elementary closed, and some others like la reina girls school are in trouble

where we’ve seen the explosion is in charter schools which have been a recent phenomenon


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> It’s actually really hard to start a private school.  There’s the issue of land, licenses, funding and it’s hard to get people to build into an untried experience.  In my neck of the woods Harvard westlake Campbell hall viewpoint Buckley and Sierra canyon have been around for decades. Oaks is the newcomer on the block and took massive investment by a church to get off the ground. The catholic schools like chaminade crespi and notre dame have been around longer.   If any thing some private schools like pinecrest elementary closed, and some others like la reina girls school are in trouble
> 
> where we’ve seen the explosion is in charter schools which have been a recent phenomenon


Oaks dates back to 2000 btw. There’s talk that kayne may start a school in moorpark but we’ll see if he can do it…tough hall since Sierra canyon and oaks draw really top athletes and academics in that area.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> You're referencing failures that are a result of neglect that happened well before high school.  Our schools, are failing kids big time.  I don't blame teachers or the schools for this, but rather the lack of funding (at least in CA).   I can remember when I was in public schools in SoCal there were hardly any private schools.  Maybe a parochial school here and there (I see you Mater Dei).  I actually have no idea what the landscape looks like now down there, but in NorCal, it's pretty insane how many private schools there are.


At least in San Diego it doesn't seem to me that there is a huge increase of private schools.  For the most part our private schools have been around for quite sometime.  I get the impression that private schools are relatively more plentiful in LA County.  What I do see huge growth in is homeschooled kids in San Diego.

From my perspective the biggest difference between when I attended public school in SoCal is that standards for students have increased while the standards for teachers have decreased dramatically.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I'm going to pull a @Grace T. here, but I was in GATE.  I don't think dumbing down public education is a great direction, but there were serious problems with GATE when I was in it.  Primarily, the parents of all the GATE kids were high motivated and deeply involved in their kids lives.  There was an inherent inequality about that.  So I can see where @MacDre is coming from.


I’ll point out it’s the same issue with club soccer. Highly motivated parents that push their kids and ready to drop thousand of dollars for them to play. The VERY SAME ISSUE.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> I'm going to pull a @Grace T. here, but I was in GATE.  I don't think dumbing down public education is a great direction, but there were serious problems with GATE when I was in it.  Primarily, the parents of all the GATE kids were high motivated and deeply involved in their kids lives.  There was an inherent inequality about that.  So I can see where @MacDre is coming from.
> 
> Bringing this back to vaccines, first, I want to say that this entire thread has been incredibly entertaining (in a good way). While I don't agree with a lot of what many you have to say, I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two and laugh about it.  In a couple of weeks when we're getting our youngers vaccinated I will, no doubt, be thinking of you all.


Let's get it back on track.  Why vaccinate them?


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I’ll point out it’s the same issue with club soccer. Highly motivated parents that push their kids and ready to drop thousand of dollars for them to play. The VERY SAME ISSUE.


Right, and we all know how that plays out.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Let's get it back on track.  Why vaccinate them?


Because our kids also get the flu shot every year.  I see no real fundamental difference here.  Had our kids contracted covid in the last 6 months I "might" have a different perspective.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> But yes, I'm 100% with you that any tax on farms or any type/size of business that would require you to sell the business to pay the estate tax is morally wrong.


…but if it forced the sale of the Chargers?  I’m conflicted.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> I'm going to pull a @Grace T. here, but I was in GATE.  I don't think dumbing down public education is a great direction, but there were serious problems with GATE when I was in it.  Primarily, the parents of all the GATE kids were high motivated and deeply involved in their kids lives.  There was an inherent inequality about that.  So I can see where @MacDre is coming from.
> 
> Bringing this back to vaccines, first, I want to say that this entire thread has been incredibly entertaining (in a good way). While I don't agree with a lot of what many you have to say, I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two and laugh about it.  In a couple of weeks when we're getting our youngers vaccinated I will, no doubt, be thinking of you all.


...fools rush in where angels fear to tread.









						Eugyppius on "Original Antigenic Sin" and why we should never vaccinate kids against the ro. NEVER. As in not ever.
					

As in not now, or later, or EVER. As in move to a state where it’s not required if your state requires it. As in protest. As in lie. As in know …




					alexberenson.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Because our kids also get the flu shot every year.  I see no real fundamental difference here.  Had our kids contracted covid in the last 6 months I "might" have a different perspective.


Err…the flu is a lot more dangerous to the kids than covid is. That’s not really a rational rationale.

and why 6 months….studies have found those who fell ill in March 2020 still have antibodies.

flu shot has also been around a lot longer, has a much more extensive test base and a long in depth protocol for who is excluded as contraindicated


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Right, and we all know how that plays out.


Well we also know it plays out that way because ayso didn’t work. I mean your a soccer parent…why then isn’t your kid playing ayso?


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Right, and we all know how that plays out.


...ask @MacDre how it plays out, I believe he is litigating a tryout selection for his dd...the equity of outcomes course is not the road to be on, nor is it what this country is about.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> You're referencing failures that are a result of neglect that happened well before high school.  Our schools, are failing kids big time.  I don't blame teachers or the schools for this, but rather the lack of funding (at least in CA).   I can remember when I was in public schools in SoCal there were hardly any private schools.  Maybe a parochial school here and there (I see you Mater Dei).  I actually have no idea what the landscape looks like now down there, but in NorCal, it's pretty insane how many private schools there are.


...funding is adequate, unions are the problem.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

NorCalDad said:


> I'm going to pull a @Grace T. here, but I was in GATE.  I don't think dumbing down public education is a great direction, but there were serious problems with GATE when I was in it.  Primarily, the parents of all the GATE kids were high motivated and deeply involved in their kids lives.  There was an inherent inequality about that.  So I can see where @MacDre is coming from.
> 
> Bringing this back to vaccines, first, I want to say that this entire thread has been incredibly entertaining (in a good way). While I don't agree with a lot of what many you have to say, I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two and laugh about it.  In a couple of weeks when we're getting our youngers vaccinated I will, no doubt, be thinking of you all.


Yeah, the GATE program is really not a program per se as we experienced it.  Basically just another standardized test designation.  I'm not sure why they bother doing it actually.  It's been interesting-painful at times-watching my kid try to navigate the nerdy academic kids he's akin to on one side, and the largely different socio-economic set of please notice how cool I am soccer kids on the other.  Interfacing with both.  Belonging to neither. But that's a keeper for you.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Future Pulisic plays with the fat kid that can barely kick.


i can only imagine your assessment of a 12 yr old Garrincha.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

MacDre said:


> And FYI, one of my favorite players in TJ is a fat kid that dances like a ballerina when he receives the ball


IMO this is a top shelf answer to a rather elitist reply. There was this kid on the U16 team my son switched to, often played as a left back but better as a holding mid IMO. Genetics, lifestyle, whatever, big framed and heavy.  But with the sweetest right foot and a head for a great pass out of the backfield.  I have footage somewhere of him looking like he's getting caught out but turning as the ball came over his shoulder and volleying a pass that totally split the defense for a goal. My son learned a lot by taking direct kicks from him.  He could make the ball do things in the air and it helped him learn how to track spin and dip.  But by U17 the speed of the game, along with new coaching, made him not a fit and he got cut.  I know it hurt the kid; the game teaches crueler lessons as you go along.  Whatever "elite" is, that's true for almost everybody.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I’ll point out it’s the same issue with club soccer. Highly motivated parents that push their kids and ready to drop thousand of dollars for them to play. The VERY SAME ISSUE.


"Pay to play" in soccer & "pay to school" for the elitist we all know.  They can;t even hide it.....lol!!!  These parents are not only motivated, they got cash too and where I'm from, cash is King!!!


----------



## crush

Back to the Vaccine and the Bat Lady, Shi Zhengi, WHO is the top Wuhan researcher has been busted by unearthed lab docs showing her isolating the Rona strain for "direct human infection....."  This is smoke gun folks.  Bat lady is busted.  Bio weapon?


----------



## crush

No Vax=You're fired!
No Vax=No NBA
No Vax=No HSS
No Vax=No College Play
No Vax=No Worries


Now this..........


----------



## crush

A message from Alec.  BTW, I gave up "Tel A Vision a long time ago."  I knew it was trying to make my brain weak and soft and all warm and fussy and like cottage cheese.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Err…the flu is a lot more dangerous to the kids than covid is. That’s not really a rational rationale.
> 
> and why 6 months….studies have found those who fell ill in March 2020 still have antibodies.
> 
> flu shot has also been around a lot longer, has a much more extensive test base and a long in depth protocol for who is excluded as contraindicated


Do you let your children eat fast food?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you let your children eat fast food?


No!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO this is a top shelf answer to a rather elitist reply. There was this kid on the U16 team my son switched to, often played as a left back but better as a holding mid IMO. Genetics, lifestyle, whatever, big framed and heavy.  But with the sweetest right foot and a head for a great pass out of the backfield.  I have footage somewhere of him looking like he's getting caught out but turning as the ball came over his shoulder and volleying a pass that totally split the defense for a goal. My son learned a lot by taking direct kicks from him.  He could make the ball do things in the air and it helped him learn how to track spin and dip.  But by U17 the speed of the game, along with new coaching, made him not a fit and he got cut.  I know it hurt the kid; the game teaches crueler lessons as you go along.  Whatever "elite" is, that's true for almost everybody.


Seen that with my daughters teams. A couple of the girls she played with were a bit heavy set but played lights out. Their ability, feel for the game, even their speed was beyond the others but as they all aged and moved up in competition at 16-17 they didn’t fit the mold.
Pity too as they are great girls from difficult family lives who deserved to be allowed to compete but we’re eventually overshadowed by the ones with more resources and pushy parents, politics.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> _*The*_ kid?  You think it’s only one kid in Algebra who doesn’t know their times tables?
> 
> Go volunteer at your high school's tutoring center.
> 
> 10-20% of the class will have trouble with 8x7 or 9x6.
> 
> About half will have trouble with integer long division.
> 
> More than 80% will have trouble adding fractions.
> 
> You gonna put all 80% on an IEP?


I didn’t realize the situation was this bad.  Do you think the problem is Everyday Math/Fuzzy Math?  

I noticed that when my kid was in preschool damn near all elementary schools were doing Fuzzy Math; no need to learn math facts…drill and kill doesn’t make kids feel good and math facts will be learned by using calculators and solving problems.


----------



## MacDre

Grace T. said:


> Err…the flu is a lot more dangerous to the kids than covid is. That’s not really a rational rationale.
> 
> and why 6 months….studies have found those who fell ill in March 2020 still have antibodies.
> 
> flu shot has also been around a lot longer, has a much more extensive test base and a long in depth protocol for who is excluded as contraindicated


Why not minimize risk?


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> A message from Alec.  BTW, I gave up "Tel A Vision a long time ago."  I knew it was trying to make my brain weak and soft and all warm and fussy and like cottage cheese.


Social media does the same thing as TV.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...ask @MacDre how it plays out, I believe he is litigating a tryout selection for his dd...the equity of outcomes course is not the road to be on, nor is it what this country is about.


We don’t do tryouts homie.


----------



## crush

I woke this morning with this thought in my brain:  The Vax & the Non Vax have this in common.  Neither of them will be "fully" vaccinated......


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Because our kids also get the flu shot every year.  I see no real fundamental difference here.  Had our kids contracted covid in the last 6 months I "might" have a different perspective.


Apples to oranges when it comes to flu, covid and young children.  Big fundamental difference.  

You have the right to make your own decision (maybe).  Less than 2% of young children who contract the virus are hospitalized, less than .003 die. It's even been argued before the FDA panel back in June, when debating vaccines for 12-15 yr olds, that vaccinating children for the benefit of adults is an “unproven hypothetical benefit".

Maneuvering by the FDA in regards to vaccinating the younger demographic has been dodgy.  Doesn't help that the US government has already purchased 65M million doses of pediatric vaccines.  

We will see wha the CDC does after 3 NOV.  If approved, the rollout won't be as smooth as some will like (imagine that).  Getting the doses to where they need to go will be an issue.  Convincing parents to vaccinate their kids is another issue.  I would bet less than 1/3 are going to jump on this bandwagon early.

50% of cases in children have been asymptomatic.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Apples to oranges when it comes to flu, covid and young children.  Big fundamental difference.
> 
> You have the right to make your own decision (maybe).  Less than 2% of young children who contract the virus are hospitalized, less than .003 die. It's even been argued before the FDA panel back in June, when debating vaccines for 12-15 yr olds, that vaccinating children for the benefit of adults is an “unproven hypothetical benefit".
> 
> Maneuvering by the FDA in regards to vaccinating the younger demographic has been dodgy.  Doesn't help that the US government has already purchased 65M million doses of pediatric vaccines.
> 
> We will see wha the CDC does after 3 NOV.  If approved, the rollout won't be as smooth as some will like (imagine that).  Getting the doses to where they need to go will be an issue.  Convincing parents to vaccinate their kids is another issue.  I would bet less than 1/3 are going to jump on this bandwagon early.
> 
> 50% of cases in children have been asymptomatic.


Did you hear about the story of Maddie, WHO was one of 1100 kids to "volunteer" their life to take experimental jab so adults can feel safe and try and not be as scared by the flu, I mean the Rona.  WA State is reporting zero flu this year.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> Apples to oranges when it comes to flu, covid and young children.  Big fundamental difference.
> 
> You have the right to make your own decision (maybe).  Less than 2% of young children who contract the virus are hospitalized, less than .003 die. It's even been argued before the FDA panel back in June, when debating vaccines for 12-15 yr olds, that vaccinating children for the benefit of adults is an “unproven hypothetical benefit".
> 
> Maneuvering by the FDA in regards to vaccinating the younger demographic has been dodgy.  Doesn't help that the US government has already purchased 65M million doses of pediatric vaccines.
> 
> We will see wha the CDC does after 3 NOV.  If approved, the rollout won't be as smooth as some will like (imagine that).  Getting the doses to where they need to go will be an issue.  Convincing parents to vaccinate their kids is another issue.  I would bet less than 1/3 are going to jump on this bandwagon early.
> 
> 50% of cases in children have been asymptomatic.


You are over complicating a simple issue.  Taking the Covid vaccine is a legitimate harm reduction strategy that minimizes risk.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> You are over complicating a simple issue.  *Taking the Covid vaccine is a legitimate harm reduction strategy that minimizes risk.*


Not for children.  I know NoCal is brainwashed so I can;t stop you guys for taking your children to get jabbed.  In and Out is out as well.  Remember parents, kids look for you to help protect them.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Not for children.  I know NoCal is brainwashed so I can;t stop you guys for taking your children to get jabbed.  In and Out is out as well.  Remember parents, kids look for you to help protect them.


Conclusory.  Please explain how not taking the Covid vaccine is a harm reduction strategy.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Again, I suggest you read the articles instead of just shooting from hip.


I haven't read the article but expect he is referring to property taxes (local & state) which are based on a notional value that can go up annually. So you are being taxed on the "unrealized gains" of the property.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Conclusory.  Please explain how not taking the Covid vaccine is a harm reduction strategy.


I will counselor.  First off, I appreciate the floor.  Before I begin, can you please state for the record what are the 5 main ingredients 4 the Pfizer jab?  Merderna jab?  Once I have this information, I will be able to explain in more details why my dd chance of harm is way higher if taking the jabs.  I wait in expectation for the top 5, thanks


----------



## MacDre

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO this is a top shelf answer to a rather elitist reply. There was this kid on the U16 team my son switched to, often played as a left back but better as a holding mid IMO. Genetics, lifestyle, whatever, big framed and heavy.  But with the sweetest right foot and a head for a great pass out of the backfield.  I have footage somewhere of him looking like he's getting caught out but turning as the ball came over his shoulder and volleying a pass that totally split the defense for a goal. My son learned a lot by taking direct kicks from him.  He could make the ball do things in the air and it helped him learn how to track spin and dip.  But by U17 the speed of the game, along with new coaching, made him not a fit and he got cut.  I know it hurt the kid; the game teaches crueler lessons as you go along.  Whatever "elite" is, that's true for almost everybody.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> Why not minimize risk?


Because you aren’t calculating the risk properly. On one side of the line is the risk of the Rona which to the under 15 is negligible. On the other side is (particularly if you have a male) the risk of side effects (which given the new dosage and the fact that the study was so limited we don’t really know yet).  If you balanced both cool, but most people have been made so freaked out by the Rona they are only looking at the first. It’s why other countries are coming to different conclusions than us particularly when it comes to boys


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO this is a top shelf answer to a rather elitist reply. There was this kid on the U16 team my son switched to, often played as a left back but better as a holding mid IMO. Genetics, lifestyle, whatever, big framed and heavy.  But with the sweetest right foot and a head for a great pass out of the backfield.  I have footage somewhere of him looking like he's getting caught out but turning as the ball came over his shoulder and volleying a pass that totally split the defense for a goal. My son learned a lot by taking direct kicks from him.  He could make the ball do things in the air and it helped him learn how to track spin and dip.  But by U17 the speed of the game, along with new coaching, made him not a fit and he got cut.  I know it hurt the kid; the game teaches crueler lessons as you go along.  Whatever "elite" is, that's true for almost everybody.


The problem with playing the back is you have to be fit or the ball is going to get passed you on the through or over the top and you have a 1v1 on the goalkeeper. I’m frankly surprised he hung in there given what you described.  My son on his last team had a back just like that…at least he got to practice the 1v1.  It’s little wonder you say he’s better as a dm or holding mid which are the last positions to get specialized. Except for the kid holding out as long as he did no great surprise


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> You are over complicating a simple issue.  Taking the Covid vaccine is a legitimate harm reduction strategy that minimizes risk.


Interesting take. I'm not overcomplicating things.  The FDA is normally more cautious when dealing with the younger demographic.  In practice, the FDA cannot authorize a medical product in a population unless the benefits outweight the risks in that same population.  Plenty of argument was presented during the 12-15 yr old panel that if the FDA doesn't have a high bar for EUAs and licencing then the point of regulation is lost.  

Pfizer EUA is already in play for 12-15 year olds.  Which means off label is legally on the table for those younger.  

This whole process has taken quite the political off ramp.  Remember when big Pharma was the bad guy and paying millions of dollars for bad drugs that at the time were good drugs?  The government purchasing doses prior to authorization? Interesting. 

Anyway, EUAs are on the horizon for the U11 crowd.  We will see how local governments leverage the EUAs.  Have some popcorn ready to watch the fireworks, especially from parents who's child has already been infected.


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> Why not minimize risk?


There is no risk to kids. You are not minimizing anything. 

You have 70 millions people 17 and under. Almost 2 yrs into this 480 or so have died. 

To make it easier to understand if deaths were equally distributed by state you are at less than 10 kids per state have died so far. So think about it in that terms. 

It is fortunately a ridiculously small number. 

To further put the numbers into perspective, it is not healthy kids who have died. It has been by and large kids with very serious health numbers.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Err…the flu is a lot more dangerous to the kids than covid is. That’s not really a rational rationale.
> 
> and why 6 months….studies have found those who fell ill in March 2020 still have antibodies.
> 
> flu shot has also been around a lot longer, has a much more extensive test base and a long in depth protocol for who is excluded as contraindicated


1) How are you defining more dangerous?  More kids (18 and under) have died of covid over the last 18 months than those who've died of the flu over the last three years.  But whatever, the total death rate is minimal in comparison to the adult population.  But let's keep going.  Let's say you're right, covid is less dangerous.  Is it 5% less dangerous?  10%? Where do you draw the line?

2) Six months is a bit arbitrary, but the data says the antibodies from an infection can last three months to five years. That's a pretty big dart board.

3) I, obviously, got the vaccine and haven't felt this good in a long time.  More importantly, mRNA based vaccination research goes back 30+ years.  Finally, I'd rather try and avoid long covid concerns.  Ultimately I don't want my kid to get sick from covid, just like I don't want them to get sick from the flu.  At the same time, we will hopefully reduce the spread of covid.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Well we also know it plays out that way because ayso didn’t work. I mean your a soccer parent…why then isn’t your kid playing ayso?


We don't have AYSO in our neck of the woods.  I wish we did.  There's a big gap between local rec leagues here and club soccer.  I think AYSO most certainly could fill that.  At least if my memory is correct, AYSO wasn't half bad in SoCal when I was growing up.  It's definitely a point of conflict for me for sure, and hard to reason about at times.  Pay to play is brutal -- and has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.


----------



## MacDre

what-happened said:


> Interesting take. I'm not overcomplicating things.  The FDA is normally more cautious when dealing with the younger demographic.  In practice, the FDA cannot authorize a medical product in a population unless the benefits outweight the risks in that same population.  Plenty of argument was presented during the 12-15 yr old panel that if the FDA doesn't have a high bar for EUAs and licencing then the point of regulation is lost.
> 
> Pfizer EUA is already in play for 12-15 year olds.  Which means off label is legally on the table for those younger.
> 
> This whole process has taken quite the political off ramp.  Remember when big Pharma was the bad guy and paying millions of dollars for bad drugs that at the time were good drugs?  The government purchasing doses prior to authorization? Interesting.
> 
> Anyway, EUAs are on the horizon for the U11 crowd.  We will see how local governments leverage the EUAs.  Have some popcorn ready to watch the fireworks, especially from parents who's child has already been infected.


I’m not a fan of big pharma.  I also think that FDA process for approving Covid vaccine


----------



## MacDre

MacDre said:


> I’m not a fan of big pharma.  I also think that FDA process for approving Covid vaccine





what-happened said:


> Interesting take. I'm not overcomplicating things.  The FDA is normally more cautious when dealing with the younger demographic.  In practice, the FDA cannot authorize a medical product in a population unless the benefits outweight the risks in that same population.  Plenty of argument was presented during the 12-15 yr old panel that if the FDA doesn't have a high bar for EUAs and licencing then the point of regulation is lost.
> 
> Pfizer EUA is already in play for 12-15 year olds.  Which means off label is legally on the table for those younger.
> 
> This whole process has taken quite the political off ramp.  Remember when big Pharma was the bad guy and paying millions of dollars for bad drugs that at the time were good drugs?  The government purchasing doses prior to authorization? Interesting.
> 
> Anyway, EUAs are on the horizon for the U11 crowd.  We will see how local governments leverage the EUAs.  Have some popcorn ready to watch the fireworks, especially from parents who's child has already been infected.


Are you aware of the process the FDA used to approve aspirin?  Do you also object to the use of aspirin?


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> There is no risk to kids. You are not minimizing anything.
> 
> *You have 70 millions people 17 and under. Almost 2 yrs into this 480 or so have died.*
> 
> To make it easier to understand if deaths were equally distributed by state you are at less than 10 kids per state have died so far. So think about it in that terms.
> 
> It is fortunately a ridiculously small number.
> 
> To further put the numbers into perspective, it is not healthy kids who have died. It has been by and large kids with very serious health numbers.


Hound, stop saying 480 kids have died of Rona.  That is not true.  The truth is only about 20 died of Covid ONLY.  The rest of the kids had at least four underlying health issues, like cancer.  Maddie has a story to tell.  Plus, is little Mason is still masked up?  I have so much popcorn in my house btw.  I have a machine like this one.  I'm serious and no satire.  Were all going to see the truth and hear the truth very, very soon and it will make you puke.  Good luck to those looking at closing their eyes and trying cover up those ears with only two hands.  Not going to escape the truth.  This is the greatest movie of all time because we all are a part of the show.  Some are good actors and some our bad actors.  Some actors are sitting on da fence still and trying to figure out what side to choose, the good guys or the cheaters & liars.


----------



## crush

Moo & Oink FYI- if you support anyone losing their job ((the only way to pay their bills and buy food)) for not getting the jabbed, you're a bad actor.  I would seriously re-consider that mind set if I were you.  Karma will come around to you and you just might find yourself in a worse situation.


----------



## what-happened

MacDre said:


> Are you aware of the process the FDA used to approve aspirin?  Do you also object to the use of aspirin?


We can play this game all day.  Vioxx

The FDA and the CDC shoudn't be political players. 

Don't worry, the jabs for the younguns are coming.  It's likely some have already been jabbed.  Doesn't mean the medical community can't voice an opinion on process.  Eventually most will fall in line, many reluctantly.  Some will lose patients just on principles.


----------



## MacDre

I guess folks are doing Fuzzy Math in Arizona because almost 500 dead kids is substantial to me.

I think the vaccine can bring down the number of dead kids.  I also don’t think the Covid vaccine will kill almost 500 kids.

So, why do you have a problem with using a harm reduction strategy to save kids?  Imagine if one of our kids was one of the 500 that prematurely died…all that shit that you are talking about really doesn’t matter then, right?


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...funding is adequate, unions are the problem.


I agree with you that teachers unions are as bad as other public service unions (police, etc). My guess is in someways, teacher unions are a reason why charter schools are flourishing. It's a Koch brother's wet dream to bust unions and also make many on the left happier about different pedagogies. 

I disagree we have enough funding in the state of CA.  We are 27th ranked for spending per pupil in comparison to other states and this doesn't even take into consideration cost of living.  Frankly I have no idea why anyone would want to be a teacher in CA.  I suppose tenure, maybe unions, and pensions attracts folks to the role.  That said, my understanding is we're having a teacher shortage...sooooo...


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> 1) How are you defining more dangerous?  *More kids (18 and under) have died of covid over the last 18 months than those who've died of the flu over the last three years.*


Your data from Fauci is so wrong, and he knows it.  The CDC numbers even prove it.  Flu deaths are always undercounted.  In a mild 2017-18 Flu season 643 deaths between the ages of 0-17 occurred.  Mild season. Compare that to the covid 19 over the last 20 months.  You can keep searching for numbers on flu seasons.  They are very high during some years.  

And please don't misinterpret my position.   I'm not against vaccines for the population of children that are at risk.  That's a no brainer.  Vaccinating a healthy, low risk population, under the guise of protecting an older population is silly.  If you are older, at risk, get your shots and boosters.  Makes sense.  You may still get the virus, but your illness will be less severe.  Then you'll have the lusted for hybrid immunity, which is the bomb.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> I guess folks are doing Fuzzy Math in Arizona because almost 500 dead kids is substantial to me.
> 
> I think the vaccine can bring down the number of dead kids.  I also don’t think the Covid vaccine will kill almost 500 kids.
> 
> So, why do you have a problem with using a harm reduction strategy to save kids?  Imagine if one of our kids was one of the 500 that prematurely died…all that shit that you are talking about really doesn’t matter then, right?





NorCalDad said:


> 1) How are you defining more dangerous?  More kids (18 and under) have died of covid over the last 18 months than those who've died of the flu over the last three years.  But whatever, the total death rate is minimal in comparison to the adult population.  But let's keep going.  Let's say you're right, covid is less dangerous.  Is it 5% less dangerous?  10%? Where do you draw the line?
> 
> 2) Six months is a bit arbitrary, but the data says the antibodies from an infection can last three months to five years. That's a pretty big dart board.
> 
> 3) I, obviously, got the vaccine and haven't felt this good in a long time.  More importantly, mRNA based vaccination research goes back 30+ years.  Finally, I'd rather try and avoid long covid concerns.  Ultimately I don't want my kid to get sick from covid, just like I don't want them to get sick from the flu.  At the same time, we will hopefully reduce the spread of covid.


1. We know from other articles posted on this forum the 500 number is over stated.  Of those kids some portion have died with COVID instead of from COVID.
2. You can't throw in and compare it to the last 18 months of flu because flu disappeared.  You also can't compare flu deaths year over year to COVID since the beginning.  Talk about fuzzy math.  But, we know comparing COVID year to year, even with the inflated number, to flu year to year. flu deaths can range anywhere from 2x-5x COVID deaths, depending on how bad the flu season is.  
3. From other articles posted on the forum, we also know long COVID is also a minimal concern in children, and long flu is much more of a danger.
4. You guys also seem to fails to understand the concept of marginal utility.  Decreasing the risk of death [not actual numbers] from 8x to 3x in a person over 60 is a huge deal.  Deceasing the chances of death in a child from .01% to .005% is just simply not as much of a big of a deal.  Further, given the new dosing, we don't know exactly how much of a benefit against death/hospitalization/long COVID the vaccine is going to be...again the test numbers were very very limited (a good read is the 1 FDA member who wrote out his dissent to support his abstention vote).
5. On the cost end, we simply don't know what the risks are....again because the sample size is so small....particularly in boys.
6. So you guys are just guessing like everyone else.  Far more honest to say "I'm scared of the virus" just like the other side is "scared of the vaccine".   You may as well throw a dart at a dart board.  It's why we are now in a booster conversation....because pharma and the FDA may have made a mistake and those initial mRNA shots should have been spaced out more....but they didn't know what they didn't know.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> We don’t do tryouts homie.


...my bad, wrong choice of word... maybe it was selection or invitation, anyway not worth going back and looking it up...my actual point was clear and a solid one...and your point of  quibbling over semantics is clear as well. Thanks.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I haven't read the article but expect he is referring to property taxes (local & state) which are based on a notional value that can go up annually. So you are being taxed on the "unrealized gains" of the property.


Maybe so, but that's on the state/county level.  Federally its unconstitutional to have a direct tax that is not apportioned among the states ratably. Hence why there is not a federal property tax and why a wealth tax is unconstitutional.


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> You are over complicating a simple issue.  Taking the Covid vaccine is a legitimate harm reduction strategy that minimizes risk.


...hope is not a strategy...there are legitimate concerns and questions regarding the vaccine.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Your data from Fauci is so wrong, and he knows it.  The CDC numbers even prove it.  Flu deaths are always undercounted.  In a mild 2017-18 Flu season 643 deaths between the ages of 0-17 occurred.  Mild season. Compare that to the covid 19 over the last 20 months.  You can keep searching for numbers on flu seasons.  They are very high during some years.
> 
> And please don't misinterpret my position.   I'm not against vaccines for the population of children that are at risk.  That's a no brainer.  Vaccinating a healthy, low risk population, under the guise of protecting an older population is silly.  If you are older, at risk, get your shots and boosters.  Makes sense.  You may still get the virus, but your illness will be less severe.  Then you'll have the lusted for hybrid immunity, which is the bomb.


Excellent break down.  My dd is in the top 1% for her age health wise.  No underlying health issues.  Her immune system is super strong.  Strong because when she does get a cold or sniffles, she beats it like the champ she is every time.  Maddie was one of 1100 kids whose parents gave up their children for the test.  She is paralyzed.  She was healthy one day and can;t walk the next.  I love you guys but this is pure evil.  People have lost their job and now kids can;t play sports and or play soccer in college.  I guess if you really love soccer you will get the jab.  So sad it's come down to this.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> We don't have AYSO in our neck of the woods.  I wish we did.  There's a big gap between local rec leagues here and club soccer.  I think AYSO most certainly could fill that.  At least if my memory is correct, AYSO wasn't half bad in SoCal when I was growing up.  It's definitely a point of conflict for me for sure, and hard to reason about at times.  Pay to play is brutal -- and has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.


If AYSO wasn't "half bad" club soccer wouldn't have imploded like it did.  There were two big problems with AYSO: the knowledge gap for coaches (which as more people grew up that went through the program and new training materials came out, became less of an issue), that it wasn't year round (some kids just want to do soccer and some don't want to be forced to do soccer/basketball/baseball every year), and that it wasn't tiered.   This last issue AYSO stubbornly refused to address, which is why the brutal pay to play system arose.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> 1. We know from other articles posted on this forum the 500 number is over stated.  Of those kids some portion have died with COVID instead of from COVID.
> 2. You can't throw in and compare it to the last 18 months of flu because flu disappeared.  You also can't compare flu deaths year over year to COVID since the beginning.  Talk about fuzzy math.  But, we know comparing COVID year to year, even with the inflated number, to flu year to year. flu deaths can range anywhere from 2x-5x COVID deaths, depending on how bad the flu season is.
> 3. From other articles posted on the forum, we also know long COVID is also a minimal concern in children, and long flu is much more of a danger.
> 4. You guys also seem to fails to understand the concept of marginal utility.  Decreasing the risk of death [not actual numbers] from 8x to 3x in a person over 60 is a huge deal.  Deceasing the chances of death in a child from .01% to .005% is just simply not as much of a big of a deal.  Further, given the new dosing, we don't know exactly how much of a benefit against death/hospitalization/long COVID the vaccine is going to be...again the test numbers were very very limited (a good read is the 1 FDA member who wrote out his dissent to support his abstention vote).
> 5. On the cost end, we simply don't know what the risks are....again because the sample size is so small....particularly in boys.
> 6. So you guys are just guessing like everyone else.  Far more honest to say "I'm scared of the virus" just like the other side is "scared of the vaccine".   You may as well throw a dart at a dart board.  It's why we are now in a booster conversation....because pharma and the FDA may have made a mistake and those initial mRNA shots should have been spaced out more....but they didn't know what they didn't know.


So, you're saying everyone is scared?  Personally I'm not scared at all.  We take guidance from our doctors, seeking second opinions when necessary.  I'm not scared of my kids dying via covid or the vaccination.  Sure there are some quack doctors out there (some of you have even posted links by or including them), but I do believe far more doctors actually know what they're talking about versus those that do not.  Who would you trust?  Someone who claims to be super smart and spends a significant amount of their waking life on a soccer forum (talking about covid) versus scientists/doctors who have spent many years in their field of study?


----------



## Grace T.

Good thread


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453424111603027971


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Maybe so, but that's on the state/county level.  Federally its unconstitutional to have a direct tax that is not apportioned among the states ratably. Hence why there is not a federal property tax and why a wealth tax is unconstitutional.


Here are couple of articles that explain the constitutional issues with direct taxes and apportionment one from independent Reuters and one from Berkeley the bastion of conservative thought.









						Explainer: Democratic 'billionaires tax' proposal likely to face legal challenges
					

The proposal by U.S. Senate Democrats to tax billionaires' tradeable assets to help finance President Joe Biden's social spending agenda will almost certainly face lawsuits, tax experts said.




					www.reuters.com
				








__





						The Constitutionality of a Net Worth Tax | Recent News | News Center | Faculty and Impact | Goldman School of Public Policy | University of California, Berkeley
					






					gspp.berkeley.edu
				




Taxing unrealized gains is a net worth tax


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> 1. We know from other articles posted on this forum the 500 number is over stated.  Of those kids some portion have died with COVID instead of from COVID.
> 2. You can't throw in and compare it to the last 18 months of flu because flu disappeared.  You also can't compare flu deaths year over year to COVID since the beginning.  Talk about fuzzy math.  But, we know comparing COVID year to year, even with the inflated number, to flu year to year. flu deaths can range anywhere from 2x-5x COVID deaths, depending on how bad the flu season is.
> 3. From other articles posted on the forum, we also know long COVID is also a minimal concern in children, and long flu is much more of a danger.
> 4. You guys also seem to fails to understand the concept of marginal utility.  Decreasing the risk of death [not actual numbers] from 8x to 3x in a person over 60 is a huge deal.  Deceasing the chances of death in a child from .01% to .005% is just simply not as much of a big of a deal.  Further, given the new dosing, we don't know exactly how much of a benefit against death/hospitalization/long COVID the vaccine is going to be...again the test numbers were very very limited (a good read is the 1 FDA member who wrote out his dissent to support his abstention vote).
> 5. On the cost end, we simply don't know what the risks are....again because the sample size is so small....particularly in boys.
> 6. So you guys are just guessing like everyone else.  Far more honest to say "I'm scared of the virus" just like the other side is "scared of the vaccine".   You may as well throw a dart at a dart board.  It's why we are now in a booster conversation....because pharma and the FDA may have made a mistake and those initial mRNA shots should have been spaced out more....but they didn't know what they didn't know.


...another 2 casualties falling prey to The Gracey Theory in short order...to tie it back to a soccer forum...like watching U-Littles attempting to play in the World Cup.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> So, you're saying everyone is scared?  Personally I'm not scared at all.  We take guidance from our doctors, seeking second opinions when necessary.  I'm not scared of my kids dying via covid or the vaccination.  Sure there are some quack doctors out there (some of you have even posted links by or including them), but I do believe far more doctors actually know what they're talking about versus those that do not.  Who would you trust?  Someone who claims to be super smart and spends a significant amount of their waking life on a soccer forum (talking about covid) versus scientists/doctors who have spent many years in their field of study?


I trust those that treat Covid on a front-line basis the most.  I also rely on the actual data over the opinions of scientists, epidemiologists etc.  I'm a show me, not tell me type of person.  Trust, but verify. 

 I also trust what I've personally experienced over what others tell me I should experience.  While that may be considered anecdotal, its human nature to trust those instincts.


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> …but if it forced the sale of the Chargers?  I’m conflicted.


Yes there should be a Spanos exception.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> So, you're saying everyone is scared?  Personally I'm not scared at all.  We take guidance from our doctors, seeking second opinions when necessary.  I'm not scared of my kids dying via covid or the vaccination.  Sure there are some quack doctors out there (some of you have even posted links by or including them), but I do believe far more doctors actually know what they're talking about versus those that do not.  Who would you trust?  Someone who claims to be super smart and spends a significant amount of their waking life on a soccer forum (talking about covid) versus scientists/doctors who have spent many years in their field of study?


I refer you to the prior article I posted regarding the experience of the mom and the so-called experts.  I refer you to the prior post I posted with my drug resistant UTI that almost killed me and would have if I "trusted the experts".  COVID would also probably have killed me if I had "trusted the experts" and not advocated. 

Further, other countries have come out with different opinions about vaccinating the under 18 year olds, and there is a substantial minority (including the expert who absented and wrote a dissent on the FDA panel) so we know opinion isn't uniform.

Further, the experts at this point are really just guess (guessing with more info than the lay person, but nevertheless guessing) so you aren't trust a medical fact or even The Science TM but the guess of an expert.  It's why it's possible (if you believe in boosters) that they got the spread among the 2 initial shots wrong.

But if you are going to trust a guess, I think you give good advice to trust a doctor that you trust.  My only caution would be when dealing with so-called experts "trust but verify" is a pretty good maxim.  Also remember some of the experts are tainted by the fact they are in bed with big pharma and there's a lot of money at stake here (which is likely why the expert FDA member instead of dissenting abstained).

I'm not advocating that you trust me.  I'm advocating for people to think critically.  In fact, I'm quite neutral over the issue of individual choice to vaccinating kids so long as we acknowledge (if you really aren't scared either way) that what you are doing is throwing a dart at the dart board since the data is so very weak.  It's the same reason I oppose a vaccine mandate for kids, because if we are just throwing darts, its entirely logical to end up with the conclusion you shouldn't vaccinate your kid.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> If AYSO wasn't "half bad" club soccer wouldn't have imploded like it did.  There were two big problems with AYSO: the knowledge gap for coaches (which as more people grew up that went through the program and new training materials came out, became less of an issue), that it wasn't year round (some kids just want to do soccer and some don't want to be forced to do soccer/basketball/baseball every year), and that it wasn't tiered.   This last issue AYSO stubbornly refused to address, which is why the brutal pay to play system arose.


My experience with AYSO goes back a loooong time ago.  What you describe doesn't sound great, but local rec leagues up here are even worse.


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> I guess folks are doing Fuzzy Math in Arizona because almost 500 dead kids is substantial to me.


Not when you are talking out of a population of 70 million.




MacDre said:


> So, why do you have a problem with using a harm reduction strategy to save kids? Imagine if one of our kids was one of the 500 that prematurely died…all that shit that you are talking about really doesn’t matter then, right?


We still don't have long term studies on side affects of the drug on various age groups, various demographics, etc. 

Every week we read something that they are just learning about the virus, the effectiveness of the various vaxxes, etc. 

To mandate something to a group that has no risk without knowing if there are long term affects is not good policy. 

Drugs takes years to come to the market. They study if certain groups have issues, etc. We have not done that in this case. 

We do know that there is a very high risk group around the world. In that case it is those 65 and older. They have constituted the vast vast majority of all deaths. As such for them it makes sense to take a drug because their risk factor related to covid is very high. In other words the benefit of taking the vaxx far outweigh the risks. 

Young people have no risk. We don't change the equation by vaccinating them because they are fine. The wise course for not at risk groups would be long term studies before any mandate goes in place on them.


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...my bad, wrong choice of word... maybe it was selection or invitation, anyway not worth going back and looking it up...my actual point was clear and a solid one...and your point of  quibbling over semantics is clear as well. Thanks.


Need a hug?


----------



## MacDre

met61 said:


> ...hope is not a strategy...there are legitimate concerns and questions regarding the vaccine.


Semantics.  Pot meet kettle.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. We know from other articles posted on this forum the 500 number is over stated.  Of those kids some portion have died with COVID instead of from COVID.
> 2. You can't throw in and compare it to the last 18 months of flu because flu disappeared.  You also can't compare flu deaths year over year to COVID since the beginning.  Talk about fuzzy math.  But, we know comparing COVID year to year, even with the inflated number, to flu year to year. flu deaths can range anywhere from 2x-5x COVID deaths, depending on how bad the flu season is.
> 3. From other articles posted on the forum, we also know long COVID is also a minimal concern in children, and long flu is much more of a danger.
> 4. You guys also seem to fails to understand the concept of marginal utility.  Decreasing the risk of death [not actual numbers] from 8x to 3x in a person over 60 is a huge deal.  Deceasing the chances of death in a child from .01% to .005% is just simply not as much of a big of a deal.  Further, given the new dosing, we don't know exactly how much of a benefit against death/hospitalization/long COVID the vaccine is going to be...again the test numbers were very very limited (a good read is the 1 FDA member who wrote out his dissent to support his abstention vote).
> 5. On the cost end, we simply don't know what the risks are....again because the sample size is so small....particularly in boys.
> 6. So you guys are just guessing like everyone else.  Far more honest to say "I'm scared of the virus" just like the other side is "scared of the vaccine".   You may as well throw a dart at a dart board.  It's why we are now in a booster conversation....because pharma and the FDA may have made a mistake and those initial mRNA shots should have been spaced out more....but they didn't know what they didn't know.


"articles posted on this forum" is not a reliable source.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> So, you're saying everyone is scared?  Personally I'm not scared at all.  We take guidance from our doctors, seeking second opinions when necessary.  I'm not scared of my kids dying via covid or the vaccination.  Sure there are some quack doctors out there (some of you have even posted links by or including them), but I do believe far more doctors actually know what they're talking about versus those that do not.  Who would you trust?  Someone who claims to be super smart and spends a significant amount of their waking life on a soccer forum (talking about covid) versus scientists/doctors who have spent many years in their field of study?


...how many of those trusted and second opinion doctors provide you guidance on the long-term effects of the vaccine? Of course, this is not a fair question because the answer is unknowable...but we do know, with the exception of EUAs,  rigorous long-term studies are essential and required, especially before approving for children.

...there are plenty of legitimate concerns and questions being raised by serious frontline doctors and experts that are going unanswered, and at worse being censored...this alone should be a concern for all laymen, especially parents.

...simple questions of concern that I will pose to you; why do you think the CDC in late September changed their age old definition of vaccine and vaccination, removing the term immunity? Additionally, why do you think the CDC is not recognizing natural immunity with Covid, when they have historically recognized it in most other viruses?

... I've asked doctors these questions and there was a concerning hesitation to give direct answers.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Maybe so, but that's on the state/county level.  Federally its unconstitutional to have a direct tax that is not apportioned among the states ratably. Hence why there is not a federal property tax and why a wealth tax is unconstitutional.


Progressive income tax?


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> Semantics.  Pot meet kettle.


...pot meet @espola 

...let me guess, your next response is "coocoo"


----------



## MacDre

Desert Hound said:


> Not when you are talking out of a population of 70 million.
> 
> 
> 
> We still don't have long term studies on side affects of the drug on various age groups, various demographics, etc.
> 
> Every week we read something that they are just learning about the virus, the effectiveness of the various vaxxes, etc.
> 
> To mandate something to a group that has no risk without knowing if there are long term affects is not good policy.
> 
> Drugs takes years to come to the market. They study if certain groups have issues, etc. We have not done that in this case.
> 
> We do know that there is a very high risk group around the world. In that case it is those 65 and older. They have constituted the vast vast majority of all deaths. As such for them it makes sense to take a drug because their risk factor related to covid is very high. In other words the benefit of taking the vaxx far outweigh the risks.
> 
> Young people have no risk. We don't change the equation by vaccinating them because they are fine. The wise course for not at risk groups would be long term studies before any mandate goes in place on them.


Decent analysis but you are minimizing the death of approximately 500 kids.  I could be wrong but I was under the impression that side effects from vaccines occur soon after administering the vaccine.  The vaccine has been administered world wide and appears to be safe and effective.  You scared homie?

So are you opposed to a harm reduction strategy because of all of the politically motivated speculation and conjecture going around?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yes there should be a Spanos exception.


The reason the Chargers and Spanos Family Trust are in financial trouble is because of the debts they incurred in the move to LA.  

Good riddance.


----------



## Grace T.

MacDre said:


> Decent analysis but you are minimizing the death of approximately 500 kids.  I could be wrong but I was under the impression that side effects from vaccines occur soon after administering the vaccine.  The vaccine has been administered world wide and appears to be safe and effective.  You scared homie?
> 
> So are you opposed to a harm reduction strategy because of all of the politically motivated speculation and conjecture going around?


The myocarditis (in the mRNA) and blood clot (in the non mRNA vaccines) are showing up as far as a month out.  In fact, at this point, I'm kind of shocked that there's hasn't been an official recommendation from pediatricians that boys who receive the second dose of Pfizer  sit out exercising (such as club soccer) for a week.  There there's the weird one impacting women's cycles.  Then there are bunch of other ones (such as GB paralysis) which are very rare but also typical of other vaccinations.  So "safe" is somewhat in the beholder.

"effective" is also a definitional issue.  Effective in reducing death and hospitalization and long COVID....absolutely....but for kids that's already on the floor so what's the point.  Effective in reducing transmission....that one is more elusive because it's becoming apparent that the breakthrough infections are really high and the latest in the Lancet puts the effectiveness date at around 200 days now. 

My impression the vast majority of people rushing out to vaccinate their kids are just scared of the virus.  The vast majority of people digging in their heels are scared of the vaccine.  But really all we are doing here is throwing darts.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Progressive income tax?


An income not a wealth tax, constitutional.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> An income not a wealth tax, constitutional.


Apply the tax to everyone, but with an exemption of a billion dollars.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s not funny it’s sad. It’s sad how many people have been convinced to protest intelligence by risking their lives and the lives of others. Many of these people claim to be motivated by pious intentions, but from my POV they are clearly more closely aligned with evil. Karma can be deadly.


How about some onions to go with your chocolate ice cream.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I suggest you educate yourself on what is actually in the proposed tax law changes.
> 
> I am also amused by the proposition on the concept that "wealth tax" is unconstitutional since it is the foundation of the funding of most local and state governments.


Coocoo.


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> Decent analysis but you are minimizing the death of approximately 500 kids.  I could be wrong but I was under the impression that side effects from vaccines occur soon after administering the vaccine.  The vaccine has been administered world wide and appears to be safe and effective.  You scared homie?
> 
> So are you opposed to a harm reduction strategy because of all of the politically motivated speculation and conjecture going around?


Harm reduction strategy? 

Of those 500 or so kids, most has serious long term health issues. 

The logical course of action would be to tell parents of kids with serious health issues to have those kids vaxxed. 

You don't need to mandate the vaxx to the rest of the 70 million population who have no risk. 

And back to the original point. We don't have LONG terms studies on possible side affects. Saying most people experience an issue soon after receiving a vax is a very different concept with knowing IF there are long term issues. 

On a general basis we dont know long term if...

- is it safe to administer the vax to pregnant women
- to people who have certain types of health issues
- to people currently taking certain types of drugs for other issues
etc etc. 

Those are things that are done with other drugs brought to market. That takes years of testing. 

To mandate a vax that has not gone through rigorous long term studies in not wise policy not quite frankly ethical.


----------



## Desert Hound

To the unrealized gains issues.


_Unrealized capital gains are not income, they are simply increases in value.

If your home was worth $200,000 last year and $300,000 this year, you have an unrealized capital gain of $100k.   A 15% tax bill on that value increase means the homeowner would have to pay $15,000 to the IRS.

--

Biden is suggesting that he will pay for the new spending by taxing people not on what they have earned but what they could earn from selling assets. Most people have assets that increase in value over time. Consider a family home. Over the course of many years, it can easily double in value, but you do not “realize” that money unless you sell it. Biden is suggesting that the government should start taxing you based on any increased value of the things you own, even though you have not actually made that money. It doesn’t matter that the home or stock or art could ultimately go down in value after you are taxed on the higher value. Indeed, if you tax some unrealized gains, you could in extreme cases force people to sell assets like a home to pay the tax on income that they did not make.

--

Additionally, another issue arises if the previously taxed asset goes down in value; an issue where the depreciation or loss becomes a negative tax liability.  Meaning if you already paid taxes on an increase in value for an asset, and the following year that asset drops in value, the federal government would then owe you money to recompensate you for a realized loss.  If you paid $15k on a $100k increase in the value of an asset, and the following year that asset drops in value by $100k, the $15k you paid would be deducted from the current year tax liability.

There are constitutional issues with the federal government taxing wealth or assets; *however, the overarching premise behind every proposal is that all wealth belongs to the government.*  You hear this ideological perspective when people say “tax expenditures” or spending in the tax code.  The idea is that your income is what the government permits you to keep, NOT what your labor has achieved.

The ideology behind taxing “unrealized capital gains” is the same ideology in the premise of “sharing the wealth.”    *It is an ideology that stems from a belief that your dollar earned comes at the cost of my dollar not achieved. *

--



			https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/27/beware-the-government-that-wants-to-tax-unrealized-capital-gains/
		

_


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The myocarditis (in the mRNA) and blood clot (in the non mRNA vaccines) are showing up as far as a month out.  In fact, at this point, I'm kind of shocked that there's hasn't been an official recommendation from pediatricians that boys who receive the second dose of Pfizer  sit out exercising (such as club soccer) for a week.  There there's the weird one impacting women's cycles.  Then there are bunch of other ones (such as GB paralysis) which are very rare but also typical of other vaccinations.  So "safe" is somewhat in the beholder.
> 
> "effective" is also a definitional issue.  Effective in reducing death and hospitalization and long COVID....absolutely....but for kids that's already on the floor so what's the point.  Effective in reducing transmission....that one is more elusive because it's becoming apparent that the breakthrough infections are really high and the latest in the Lancet puts the effectiveness date at around 200 days now.
> 
> My impression the vast majority of people rushing out to vaccinate their kids are just scared of the virus.  The vast majority of people digging in their heels are scared of the vaccine.  But really all we are doing here is throwing darts.


If I hear a another so-called expert on TV say that approval of the vaccination for 5-11 year old's is a "turning point" in the fight against Covid, I'm going to have to buy a new tv, or at least a new remote.

I put the over/under on 5-11 vaccinations at 40%, but I could be convinced to set it lower.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> How about some onions to go with your chocolate ice cream.



Add this sauce to go on top of Husker's chocoolate ice cream.

I'm still tripping out today.  Dre wants me to rush my child to get the jab.  Why?  My buddy Colin just told me one of his clients just got whacked by a company in San Francisco.  Dude has worked for company the last 14 years.  The last three years from home in Wildomar CA.  Basically, works from home.  He cannot get jabbed for religious reasons and tomorrow is his last day, regardless if he works from home or in the office.  The owner is big time political asshole and is showing his cards and showing this poor guy the door.  He's flying up tomorrow morning to walk in and officially get whacked.  He has some ER funds and his attorney is taking his case pro bono.  This is crazy that were watching people get fired for no jabber doo and kids will not be allowed to play without jabs and boosters and masks.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> To the unrealized gains issues.
> 
> 
> _Unrealized capital gains are not income, they are simply increases in value.
> 
> If your home was worth $200,000 last year and $300,000 this year, you have an unrealized capital gain of $100k.   A 15% tax bill on that value increase means the homeowner would have to pay $15,000 to the IRS.
> 
> --
> 
> Biden is suggesting that he will pay for the new spending by taxing people not on what they have earned but what they could earn from selling assets. Most people have assets that increase in value over time. Consider a family home. Over the course of many years, it can easily double in value, but you do not “realize” that money unless you sell it. Biden is suggesting that the government should start taxing you based on any increased value of the things you own, even though you have not actually made that money. It doesn’t matter that the home or stock or art could ultimately go down in value after you are taxed on the higher value. Indeed, if you tax some unrealized gains, you could in extreme cases force people to sell assets like a home to pay the tax on income that they did not make.
> 
> --
> 
> Additionally, another issue arises if the previously taxed asset goes down in value; an issue where the depreciation or loss becomes a negative tax liability.  Meaning if you already paid taxes on an increase in value for an asset, and the following year that asset drops in value, the federal government would then owe you money to recompensate you for a realized loss.  If you paid $15k on a $100k increase in the value of an asset, and the following year that asset drops in value by $100k, the $15k you paid would be deducted from the current year tax liability.
> 
> There are constitutional issues with the federal government taxing wealth or assets; *however, the overarching premise behind every proposal is that all wealth belongs to the government.*  You hear this ideological perspective when people say “tax expenditures” or spending in the tax code.  The idea is that your income is what the government permits you to keep, NOT what your labor has achieved.
> 
> The ideology behind taxing “unrealized capital gains” is the same ideology in the premise of “sharing the wealth.”    *It is an ideology that stems from a belief that your dollar earned comes at the cost of my dollar not achieved. *
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/27/beware-the-government-that-wants-to-tax-unrealized-capital-gains/
> 
> 
> _


I'm not surprised that you quote those whiney little bitches.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Harm reduction strategy?
> 
> Of those 500 or so kids, most has serious long term health issues.
> 
> The logical course of action would be to tell parents of kids with serious health issues to have those kids vaxxed.
> 
> You don't need to mandate the vaxx to the rest of the 70 million population who have no risk.
> 
> And back to the original point. We don't have LONG terms studies on possible side affects. Saying most people experience an issue soon after receiving a vax is a very different concept with knowing IF there are long term issues.
> 
> On a general basis we dont know long term if...
> 
> - is it safe to administer the vax to pregnant women
> - to people who have certain types of health issues
> - to people currently taking certain types of drugs for other issues
> etc etc.
> 
> Those are things that are done with other drugs brought to market. That takes years of testing.
> 
> To mandate a vax that has not gone through rigorous long term studies in not wise policy not quite frankly ethical.


They didn't really even study the risks involved with vaccinating people who had COVID before.  We are only now beginning to understand they may be superimmune.  But we still don't have a handle on what the side effects.  Anecdotally, we know people who have had it before have been having much more severe side reactions (such as vomiting and nausea) from the first shot as opposed to the second shot.  But the point is they didn't study it.


----------



## watfly

Quote of the day that I heard:

We're a country that was founded by geniuses that is run by idiots.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> If I hear a another so-called expert on TV say that approval of the vaccination for 5-11 year old's is a "turning point" in the fight against Covid, I'm going to have to buy a new tv, or at least a new remote.
> 
> I put the over/under on 5-11 vaccinations at 40%, but I could be convinced to set it lower.


TV= Tell you a vision.  I quit TV and it changed my life for ever.  Turning point on their crusade is to vax everyone.  The one's who refuse will lose their job and won't be able to do go out.  Keep sitting on the fence wat fly and watch the bs!!!  You are being played big time!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

"oodles and oodles"


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> TV= Tell you a vision.  I quit TV and it changed my life for ever.  Turning point on their crusade is to vax everyone.  The one's who refuse will lose their job and won't be able to do go out.  Keep sitting on the fence wat fly and watch the bs!!!  You are being played big time!!!


I get a better view from the fence.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I get a better view from the fence.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"Is it really true that political self interest is more noble than economic self interest?"


----------



## crush

I know a good pal who is starting a non religious charter school next year.  His biggest competitor he tells me is this new home school phenomenon curriculum taking place.  If I had young kids, I would teach with RV life and teach out in Nature.  Sorry, but everything is tainted with race hate & bait, plus division and "my way or the highway" and you better take jab or get fired.  Plus take boosters forever to be considered fully obedient.  My other pal say's his school and class is shrinking and less and less kids are showing up.  In fact, Jason told me that his 3 best students are now being home schooled and two more moms told him their moving after the semester.  It's happening like I thought I would.  Everything has become us vs them.  That is a loser way to play life.  Both and is the only way to play.


----------



## Grace T.

Things getting interesting in NY with the vaccine mandate...who will blink?....1/4 to 1/3 resisting is a pretty big chunk....even 10% is enough to disrupt services as witnessed by the airlines a few weeks back and NY sanitation this week.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453740746167685120


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Things getting interesting in NY with the vaccine mandate...who will blink?....1/4 to 1/3 resisting is a pretty big chunk....even 10% is enough to disrupt services as witnessed by the airlines a few weeks back and NY sanitation this week.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453740746167685120


Get ready for the metaverse.  This is the new name for FB.  WTF is up with Zuck?  This is how to stay in his 3d world.  I'm playing 5D only.  Stock is up 3%.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I know a good pal who is starting a non religious charter school next year.  His biggest competitor he tells me is this new home school phenomenon curriculum taking place.  If I had young kids, I would teach with RV life and teach out in Nature.  Sorry, but everything is tainted with race hate & bait, plus division and "my way or the highway" and you better take jab or get fired.  Plus take boosters forever to be considered fully obedient.  My other pal say's his school and class is shrinking and less and less kids are showing up.  In fact, Jason told me that his 3 best students are now being home schooled and two more moms told him their moving after the semester.  It's happening like I thought I would.  Everything has become us vs them.  That is a loser way to play life.  Both and is the only way to play.
> 
> View attachment 11975


Is this in CA, your friend 

I think especially in blue states , they are not just going let participation  rates from their public schools plummet. The state governments are going crack down on homeschooling, requirements , etc


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Things getting interesting in NY with the vaccine mandate...who will blink?....1/4 to 1/3 resisting is a pretty big chunk....even 10% is enough to disrupt services as witnessed by the airlines a few weeks back and NY sanitation this week.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453740746167685120


It's crazy how these individuals risked their lives, for the benefit of the general public, during the pandemic and now if they won't get the vaccination its just a big FU to them.  Mind boggling.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> It's crazy how these individuals risked their lives, for the benefit of the general public, during the pandemic and now if they won't get the vaccination its just a big FU to them.  Mind boggling.


at least the administration is making sure the border crossers that they are releasing throughout the country are vaccinated


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> If I hear a another so-called expert on TV say that approval of the vaccination for 5-11 year old's is a "turning point" in the fight against Covid, I'm going to have to buy a new tv, or at least a new remote.


Yep how can vaxxing people with no risk be called a turning point. 

The amount of crap that is peddled as fact is amazing.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I'm not surprised that you quote those whiney little bitches.


For a person who says they were repub up until t came around...you sure love government intrusion. 

I have yet to see you take a position contrary to less gov intervention. 

The unrealized cap gains idea is terrible on a variety of levels. One would think that would be blindingly obvious.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I didn’t realize the situation was this bad.  Do you think the problem is Everyday Math/Fuzzy Math?
> 
> I noticed that when my kid was in preschool damn near all elementary schools were doing Fuzzy Math; no need to learn math facts…drill and kill doesn’t make kids feel good and math facts will be learned by using calculators and solving problems.


That's it.  We keep trying to find some way to believe you can do math without the boring bits.  If you convince yourself that basic facts are obsolete, then you don't have to do the hard work of teaching them.  Nice deal for the teacher and the school.

It doesn't work for the student, of course.  Ten years later, he/she finds out that the American Studies classes are full of kids who did Everyday Math, and the graduate Physics seminars are full of kids who did AOPS and RSM.


----------



## MicPaPa

Who's to blame when everyone is vaxxed?

________________________________

*Ireland is 91% Vaccinated and Covid cases are soaring…*


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> It's crazy how these individuals risked their lives, for the benefit of the general public, during the pandemic and now if they won't get the vaccination its just a big FU to them.  Mind boggling.


Good riddance.  There is an incredibly easy solution to their problem.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Who's to blame when everyone is vaxxed?
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> *Ireland is 91% Vaccinated and Covid cases are soaring…*


And yet no one is dying....


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> The reason the Chargers and Spanos Family Trust are in financial trouble is because of the debts they incurred in the move to LA.
> 
> Good riddance.


Nope.  The estate was in trouble without the move to LA and the accompanying bump in ‘unrealized’ value that could hypothetically be used to pay off the tax burden of the death/estate tax.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> Who's to blame when everyone is vaxxed?
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> *Ireland is 91% Vaccinated and Covid cases are soaring…*


IIRC Ireland has a mask mandate too if I recall.  Same thing is happening in highly vaxxed Singapore and in Iceland (though Iceland's mask mandate is much more lax).  (Given what's happening in Norway, Finland, Iceland, Russia and Ireland, I think the chances of at least a moderate winter wave here have risen somewhat substantially....there are consequences to that too....if that happens I think it might push the supply train crunch over the top if they haven't resolved it by Thanksgiving).

You know the answer....in 2023 they'll be blaming those of us who didn't get the updated fifth booster.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Is this in CA, your friend
> 
> I think especially in blue states , they are not just going let participation  rates from their public schools plummet. The state governments are going crack down on homeschooling, requirements , etc


Yes, Cali.  They will or might fight for the $$$$ that home school parents receive for extra curricular things like field trips, science trips, PE, Dance and books to name a few.  I agree on the crack down from "some crazy ass towns" but most are going to leave the state and head to the woods or AZ or FL and wait this out or, start the heck over in a new state.  I know one family where the dad got let go right before Covid hit.  He was a big time manger of hotel and the owner went bust and filed for BK. It had nothing to do with the virus, just to be clear.  However, his wife just got whacked because the family is super duper religious and will not allow anything in their blood ((pops is screwed because no one will hire him because he believes in not having things injected into blood stream)) and the place she worked told her, "sorry Sally, no jab, no job."  So the family is SOL you would think, right?  Hell no!!!  That's right folks.  This story is going to end well for this lucky family of four.  They have two little kids.  The good news is Sally has rich parents with an extra house on the AZ side of Lake Havasu and she is super smart.  Dave is going to do Door Dash and work a few hours at a boat doc place and Sally will teach the kids.  Trust me you guys, Sally knows how to teach English, math and science to her kids.  She will make sure the math is correct and the science is not taught with magic.  No pressure to make $10,000 gross to service the hamster wheel anymore and they are grateful.  It's nice to have parents to help in time of need.


----------



## Desert Hound

_Of the more than *730,000 reported coronavirus deaths in the United States, only 138 of them were children aged 5-11, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.*

Meanwhile, the *CDC has admitted that mRNA vaccinations such as the Pfizer-BioNTech shot can pose serious health risks to young adults and especially male adolescents, who are susceptible to developing myocarditis.

--*

The committee considered a voting question that read, “Based on the totality of scientific evidence available, do the benefits of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine when administered as a 2-dose series … outweigh its risks for use in children 5-11 years of age?” 


While considering the question, one member openly admitted they couldn’t be certain the vaccine is safe while advocating for children to be injected with it, saying, *“We’re never going to learn about how safe the vaccine is until we start giving it.*”









						FDA Committee Member Admits He Doesn't Know If Vaxx Is Safe For Kids
					

One member of an FDA advisory committee admitted the vaccine might not be safe for children but still advocated for its approval for those ages 5-11.




					thefederalist.com
				



_


----------



## N00B

Desert Hound said:


> For a person who says they were repub up until t came around...you sure love government intrusion.


Cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> IIRC Ireland has a mask mandate too if I recall.  Same thing is happening in highly vaxxed Singapore and in Iceland (though Iceland's mask mandate is much more lax).
> 
> You know the answer....in 2023 they'll be blaming those of us who didn't get the updated fifth booster.


You are wrong. 

@dad4 solved the mystery on day 1. It is the damn bars that cause the spread.  You can be masked and vaxxed and be safe, but the bar down the street magically spreads the virus to everyone in the area.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> For a person who says they were repub up until t came around...you sure love government intrusion.
> 
> I have yet to see you take a position contrary to less gov intervention.
> 
> The unrealized cap gains idea is terrible on a variety of levels. One would think that would be blindingly obvious.


Not if his cherry picking narrative ignores what is obvious.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> They didn't really even study the risks involved with vaccinating people who had COVID before.  We are only now beginning to understand they may be superimmune.  But we still don't have a handle on what the side effects.  Anecdotally, we know people who have had it before have been having much more severe side reactions (such as vomiting and nausea) from the first shot as opposed to the second shot.  But the point is they didn't study it.


T


Grace T. said:


> They didn't really even study the risks involved with vaccinating people who had COVID before.  We are only now beginning to understand they may be superimmune.  But we still don't have a handle on what the side effects.  Anecdotally, we know people who have had it before have been having much more severe side reactions (such as vomiting and nausea) from the first shot as opposed to the second shot.  But the point is they didn't study it.


This is the so-called money issue, literally.


----------



## Grace T.

A friend of mine got summoned for jury duty in Ventura County.  FYI, they are demanding to know your vaccination status.  There is an option for decline to state but if called to sit I have no doubt she will be asked as part of voir dire what her vaccination status is.  She plans to decline to state when asked....we'll see if the judge allows that to stick.

They are also telling people who won't wear masks they'll be pushed to a future date.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> @dad4 solved the mystery on day 1. It is the damn bars that cause the spread.  You can be masked and vaxxed and be safe, but the bar down the street magically spreads the virus to everyone in the area.


Dad4 has been dragging his socialist anchor around from the beginning.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> IIRC Ireland has a mask mandate too if I recall.  Same thing is happening in highly vaxxed Singapore and in Iceland (though Iceland's mask mandate is much more lax).  (Given what's happening in Norway, Finland, Iceland, Russia and Ireland, I think the chances of at least a moderate winter wave here have risen somewhat substantially....there are consequences to that too....if that happens I think it might push the supply train crunch over the top if they haven't resolved it by Thanksgiving).
> 
> You know the answer....in 2023 they'll be blaming those of us who didn't get the updated fifth booster.


Wow, between the mask mandates and the high vaccination rates, I guess it should come as no surprise that Ireland's per capita death rate is about 1/3 that of AZ.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *in 2023 they'll be blaming those of us who didn't get the updated fifth booster.*




So I guess it will take 5 boosters to wake people up?  Here's a conspiracy theory I'm testing on a dear friend WHO obeys the rules.  He's had two shots and told me under no circumstances will he get a booster.  Wat Fly said he will get boosters as long as his Dr. tells him to.  How many boosters until some think, "Hmmm, something is not right.  Hmm, my best friends wife just lost her job as a nurse.  My other pal dd can't play soccer in school unless fully vax.  No boosters=not fully vaxxed."


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I'm not surprised that you quote those whiney little bitches.


Didn't I just see something about pots meeting kettles?

Remember a key tell of the left - they always do what they accuse others of doing. ( a classic Carlson)


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> And yet no one is dying....


So, are you saying it's a treatment?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, between the mask mandates and the high vaccination rates, I guess it should come as no surprise that Ireland's per capita death rate is about 1/3 that of AZ.


Wow!  Should've did what FL did.  See you're not beating that drum anymore.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> For a person who says they were repub up until t came around...you sure love government intrusion.
> 
> I have yet to see you take a position contrary to less gov intervention.
> 
> The unrealized cap gains idea is terrible on a variety of levels. One would think that would be blindingly obvious.


I  said I was a Republican until Nixon (and I recognized that error).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A friend of mine got summoned for jury duty in Ventura County.  FYI, they are demanding to know your vaccination status.  There is an option for decline to state but if called to sit I have no doubt she will be asked as part of voir dire what her vaccination status is.  She plans to decline to state when asked....we'll see if the judge allows that to stick.
> 
> They are also telling people who won't wear masks they'll be pushed to a future date.


You present this like its a bad thing.  My answer is "Hell no, I'm not vaccinated" (is it under penalty of perjury?).


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Nope.  The estate was in trouble without the move to LA and the accompanying bump in ‘unrealized’ value that could hypothetically be used to pay off the tax burden of the death/estate tax.











						Spanos family won't need to sell due to estate taxes - ProFootballTalk
					

When the patriarch of a family that owns an NFL franchise passes, one of the most important questions becomes whether the transfer of his ownership interest to other family members will trigger the kind of estate-tax obligation that will make it impossible for the family to pay the taxes without...




					profootballtalk.nbcsports.com


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I  said I was a Republican until Nixon (and I recognized that error).


Fair enough.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> @dad4 solved the mystery on day 1. It is the damn bars that cause the spread.  You can be masked and vaxxed and be safe, but the bar down the street magically spreads the virus to everyone in the area.


You got it.  Bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, cruise ships, office buildings, and private homes.

Anywhere people breathe in the air that someone else recently breathed out.   

Glad to hear you're understanding it now.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You got it.  Bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, cruise ships, office buildings, and private homes.
> 
> Anywhere people breathe in the air that someone else recently breathed out.
> 
> Glad to hear you're understanding it now.


So anywhere people work together or live together...ahhh....got it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> So anywhere people work together or live together...ahhh....got it.


Glad to hear we are all finally on the same page.  

 You forgot to add "play together", but we'll get there.


----------



## Grace T.

The Lancet study and commentary.....peakloads for vaxxed and unvaxxed were similar but vaxxed clearances were shorter (doesn't help if you live or work with someone)....breakthroughs mild....editorial states vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal but does exist....protection from infection lasts only 2-3 months.  Current vaccines are therefore unlikely in and of themselves (at least without natural immunity) to make COVID go away









						Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
					

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...



					www.thelancet.com
				






			https://www.thelancet.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/s1473309921006903.pdf


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Glad to hear we are all finally on the same page.
> 
> You forgot to add "play together", but we'll get there.


May as well throw in "learning" as well....in other words living a human existence since humans are social animals.....


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I  said I was a Republican until Nixon (and I recognized that error).


First of all, call it what you want; Secondly, who gives a damn; Lastly, you're a grown-ass "man" freakishly lurking in a kids soccer forum without kids playing who turned into a weak-ass bedwetting schoolgirl over an elected US President.

I'd say Nixon is the least of your mental issues.

BTW, stuff the coocoo response.


----------



## Grace T.

Breakthrough infections on fully vaxxed people seem to provide as much protection as Moderna booster








						Immune Responses in Fully Vaccinated Individuals Following Breakthrough Infection with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant in Provincetown, Massachusetts
					

Background A cluster of over a thousand infections with the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant was identified in a predominantly fully vaccinated population in Provincetown, Massachusetts in July 2021. Immune responses in breakthrough infections with the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant remain to be defined...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> Wow!  Should've did what FL did.  See you're not beating that drum anymore.


Uh, FL will also pass NY in a couple weeks if not sooner. FL's death rate is barely lower than AZ's.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> IIRC Ireland has a mask mandate too if I recall.


Its mandated for specific instances but not the pubs, which are finally open  , no correlation I'm sure . No mandate for kids under 13 either, btw.


----------



## met61

...there are some spines in France...well done!









						Creative new way to fight Vaccine mandate…
					

Civil Disobedience for the win.




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The Lancet study and commentary.....peakloads for vaxxed and unvaxxed were similar but vaxxed clearances were shorter (doesn't help if you live or work with someone)....breakthroughs mild....editorial states vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal but does exist....protection from infection lasts only 2-3 months.  Current vaccines are therefore unlikely in and of themselves (at least without natural immunity) to make COVID go away
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/s1473309921006903.pdf


Last sentence comes from Grace, not the article.

The article notes that one implication of the study is that we need higher vax rates.  Grace decided to omit that part, assert the opposite herself, and pretend that her conclusion somehow came from Lancet.

Would you stop this?   You repeatedly mix your own personal opinion in, as though it came from the actual scientists.  It's either amazingly sloppy writing, or a deliberate attempt to pretend that your opinion has more support than it really does.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Spanos family won't need to sell due to estate taxes - ProFootballTalk
> 
> 
> When the patriarch of a family that owns an NFL franchise passes, one of the most important questions becomes whether the transfer of his ownership interest to other family members will trigger the kind of estate-tax obligation that will make it impossible for the family to pay the taxes without...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> profootballtalk.nbcsports.com


I feel well refuted by an article dated after the Charges had moved that states they don’t have to sell an interest in the team due to estate taxes.  Thanks.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> For a person who says they were repub up until t came around...you sure love government intrusion.
> 
> I have yet to see you take a position contrary to less gov intervention.
> 
> The unrealized cap gains idea is terrible on a variety of levels. One would think that would be blindingly obvious.


It's because he's full of shit.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Last sentence comes from Grace, not the article.
> 
> The article notes that one implication of the study is that we need higher vax rates.  Grace decided to omit that part, assert the opposite herself, and pretend that her conclusion somehow came from Lancet.
> 
> Would you stop this?   You repeatedly mix your own personal opinion in, as though it came from the actual scientists.  It's either amazingly sloppy writing, or a deliberate attempt to pretend that your opinion has more support than it really does.


A. No
B. I post the article you can read it and make up your own minds
C. Yes it’s sloppy. Don’t have time to spoon feed you. Doing a ton of things simultaneously. This forum is occupying maybe 10% of my attention.  There is a period there for a reason. 
D. I agree we need higher vax rates. Whether we can get them is another story as is whether we should do what we need to do to get them.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> I feel well refuted by an article dated after the Charges had moved that states they don’t have to sell an interest in the team due to estate taxes.  Thanks.


Alex Spanos practiced smart estate planning by transferring majority interest to his children and putting the rest of his stake into a trust for them.  The siblings have offered to buy out the malcontent, but she could probably get more money in a bidding war with Jeff Bezos as one of the participants.

And this isn't one of those family businesses situations where the asset in question constitutes the bulk of the family's wealth. Alex had plenty of money before he bought the Chargers, and he kept on making money in his traditional real-estate holdings (the largest apartment builder in the country at one time).  Dean and his sister are now engaged in a contest of selfishness.  Unfortunately, I don't see a way where they could both lose in this. Someone should gather up a baggie of the concrete dust remaining from the destruction of San Diego Stadium and mail it to him.

My theory when Alex first bought the Chargers was that he planned to move the team to Stockton where he owned large plots of agricultural land close to freeways.  That makes even more sense now that the Raiders have moved out again.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> You present this like its a bad thing.  My answer is "Hell no, I'm not vaccinated" (is it under penalty of perjury?).


Yes it is.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A. No
> B. I post the article you can read it and make up your own minds
> C. Yes it’s sloppy. Don’t have time to spoon feed you. Doing a ton of things simultaneously. This forum is occupying maybe 10% of my attention.  There is a period there for a reason.
> D. I agree we need higher vax rates. Whether we can get them is another story as is whether we should do what we need to do to get them.


Why do you bother to post these bullshit articles?   Is it so that you can refer back to them later ("articles posted earlier in this thread") as if they had been legitimized?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Why do you bother to post these bullshit articles?   Is it so that you can refer back to them later ("articles posted earlier in this thread") as if they had been legitimized?


It’s a study dumb dumb in the lancet and the accompanying article is the official commentary


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s a study dumb dumb in the lancet and the accompanying article is the official commentary


I made up my own mind.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Why do you bother to post these bullshit articles?   Is it so that you can refer back to them later ("articles posted earlier in this thread") as if they had been legitimized?


Isn’t that how Cheney started the whole WMD thing?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> A. No
> B. I post the article you can read it and make up your own minds
> C. Yes it’s sloppy. Don’t have time to spoon feed you. Doing a ton of things simultaneously. This forum is occupying maybe 10% of my attention.  There is a period there for a reason.
> D. I agree we need higher vax rates. Whether we can get them is another story as is whether we should do what we need to do to get them.


Spoon feed?  Bull crap.  This is about you being deliberately misleading, yet again.  You toss your opinion in alongside the Lancet opinion, making absolutely no distinction between the two.

How hard is it to start a new paragraph that uses the usual clarifiers like “I think” or “in my view”?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Why do you bother to post these bullshit articles?   Is it so that you can refer back to them later ("articles posted earlier in this thread") as if they had been legitimized?


The article itself is good.  The bull shit comes in when Grace misrepresents their contents.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It’s a study *dumb dumb* in the lancet and the accompanying article is the official commentary


He dumb dumb alright and a liar & cheater to boot.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Spoon feed?  Bull crap.  This is about you being deliberately misleading, yet again.  You toss your opinion in alongside the Lancet opinion, making absolutely no distinction between the two.
> 
> How hard is it to start a new paragraph that uses the usual clarifiers like “I think” or “in my view”?


One logically follow from the other. We’ve long ago established your reading comprehension is far below your math skills. It may very well be sloppy but Indont have time to spoon feed you. Read the god damn article and make up your own mind. That’s what I’m about after all. Even espola can figure that out so surely you can to.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It’s a study *dumb dumb* in the lancet and the accompanying article is the official commentary


Dumb dumb will be voting for the Liz/Adam ticket in 2024....lol.  You see all, Espola (R) has always been on the Right's side.  It was only when t ran for office and beat HRC that he switched and joined Husker (M) and the Golden Gate (M,C and A) team of fraudsters or so the Liar said.  They even tricked Dad (S) from his party.  I see the other day Espola (R) said he was a Repub before Nixon now.  Is that so?  The real Espola (M) is obvious.  You could also add a "C" if you would like or "A" for ---hole!!!!  A true master of the lie he *had *become and almost got the last lie in. However, the truth always when's and win one runs out of lies, well then, you look like dumb dumb and will not wind in the game of life. Grace T called someone a "dumb dumb" and that has made my TGIFF!!! I love it Grace T   You go girl.  Thank you again for sharing your heart and life with all of us.  I taught us all WHO the father of lies is and that TruthSocial.com will end the game of lies that Espola, Golden Gate and Husker Du have been playing.  I so happy, I so happy I so happy.  I know the outcome of this game and I know where I will be.  I so happy!!!


----------



## crush

TGIFF and make sure to Meta friend today....lol


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I  said I was a Republican until Nixon (and I recognized that error).


So Carter inspired you to be a Democrat, and stay a Democrat after his administration?  That says a lot about you.  Biden must be like a gift from heaven for you.


----------



## MicPaPa

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's because he's full of shit.


FACT CHECK: True


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> So Carter inspired you to be a Democrat, and stay a Democrat after his administration?  That says a lot about you.  Biden must be like a gift from heaven for you.


I got motive now why Espola (M,C,A & D) hates t so much and WHO his favorite Presdient is.  I can see why some would switch parties because of Dick.  My adopted mom was so pissed off at little Richard that she voted for Jimmy as well but she then came back and voted for Ronnie for two terms.  Espola has been a (M) since Nixon I guess and because of that decision in his own heart, he became a A, B, C and a D bag.  TGIFF!!!


----------



## Brav520

We found the Mondale voter


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You got it.  Bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, cruise ships, office buildings, and private homes.
> 
> Anywhere people breathe in the air that someone else recently breathed out.
> 
> Glad to hear you're understanding it now.


coo coo


----------



## crush

Meet Flipper Everyone.......


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> One logically follow from the other. We’ve long ago established your reading comprehension is far below your math skills. It may very well be sloppy but Indont have time to spoon feed you. Read the god damn article and make up your own mind. That’s what I’m about after all. Even espola can figure that out so surely you can to.


When cornered, she attacks with ad hominems.

But I repeat myself.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> We found the Mondale voter


I didn't vote for Mondale.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> The article itself is good.  The bull shit comes in when Grace misrepresents their contents.


And then, a few weeks later, refers to the article and her opinionated characterization of it as if they were accepted facts.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> So Carter inspired you to be a Democrat, and stay a Democrat after his administration?  That says a lot about you.  Biden must be like a gift from heaven for you.


I didn't vote for Carter either time.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Last sentence comes from Grace, not the article.
> 
> The article notes that one implication of the study is that we need higher vax rates.  Grace decided to omit that part, assert the opposite herself, and pretend that her conclusion somehow came from Lancet.
> 
> Would you stop this?   You repeatedly mix your own personal opinion in, as though it came from the actual scientists.  It's either amazingly sloppy writing, or a deliberate attempt to pretend that your opinion has more support than it really does.


Case hyping comes to mind.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I didn't vote for Mondale.


Dude, you're so busted and have a big fat egg on your face.  Over easy buddy!!!  Checkmate!!!  You still have time to change and go on the side of the truth.  Hurry hurry Espola!!!


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I didn't vote for Carter either time.


Neither did anyone else the second time.  Carter represented the Democrat's viewpoint post Nixon.  So when did you really become a Democrat?


----------



## crush

Let's not forget the two singing Love Birds.  Baker one nine has been spilling the beans for over three years.  These two have been singing songs to Mr. Durham for a few years.  Love songs by Peter & Lisa.  Composed by Baker and edited by Elias.  This has everything to do with the last two years too.  It had to happen like this you guys.  It's been hard emotionally for all of us.  Please be patient as the last of the cheaters are rounded up.  I was at beach yesterday ((88 degrees and sunny)) and so many little military helicopters flying everywhere around those cargo ships.  Anyone sailing around those big tankers lately?  Also, I have a very reliable source who said these same Helos have been flying in LA at night and taking cheaters away and quickly.  Shhhhhhhhh, be very very quite, I'm hunting the hunters now....lol!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I made up my own mind.


Yes, we know.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Neither did anyone else the second time.  Carter represented the Democrat's viewpoint post Nixon.  So when did you really become a Democrat?


If you are going to comment on everything I ever posted perhaps you should have read it all first.

I registered as a Democrat when I first came to California, but I never really voted Democrat.  Soon after I changed to a non-partisan registration.  I vote for the best candidate or the one who seems to best represent my interests.  As an example, in the recent recall election, I voted No and Falconer.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The article itself is good.  The bull shit comes in when Grace misrepresents their contents.


Fear not D4.  Nobody stacks shit higher than you.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Fear not D4.  Nobody stacks shit higher than you.


He has more piles of poo poo then anyone on here.  I had a plumber pal of mine tell me a gross story.  He was called out to a house in Irvine that had 10 people living in a 2 bedroom condo.  Well, the toilets back up and they all pooped on the same stack because toilet not flush.  By the time my pal came, it was a mountain of human waste.  The worse part besides the smell was the leader of the house trying to cut a deal to remove all the shit that had piled up over the last few days.  He offered my pay $100 bill to fix the issue and clean up, as if that would make it worth while.  He said no way and you need to call the county health department and CPS asap.  Back to D4 and his crew. Not only are these clowns dumb dumbs, their cowards of the county.  Their piles of doo doo have now become stacks of shit that we all can smell a mile a way.  It's not too late to capitulate you guys and get your asses wiped for once. The truth will always win Bruddad IZ.  Hold the line and dont give up man, were dealing with some serious assholes WHO are so full of shit. My wife just told me about a 13 year old boy who wanted to end his life because of what these monsters have been doing to kids. The cops found him and he told them he wants to die because he over heard his mom saying she wanted to die because of how hard it's been on their family.  I'm not making this up at all.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> If you are going to comment on everything I ever posted perhaps you should have read it all first.
> 
> I registered as a Democrat when I first came to California, but I never really voted Democrat.  Soon after I changed to a non-partisan registration.  I vote for the best candidate or the one who seems to best represent my interests.  As an example, in the recent recall election, I voted No and Falconer.


Non partisan registration?

I would lay money you have voted for about everything that makes CA so expensive. Those policies usually come from one side of the aisle. 

On every issue on this forum you go with the more gov angle. I suspect strongly that is how you vote in CA. 

I find it fascinating that the party that claims to be for the little guy consistently implements policies in CA that makes everyday living far more expensive than it should.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> If you are going to comment on everything I ever posted perhaps you should have read it all first.
> 
> I registered as a Democrat when I first came to California, but I never really voted Democrat.  Soon after I changed to a non-partisan registration.  I vote for the best candidate or the one who seems to best represent my interests.  As an example, in the recent recall election, I voted No and Falconer.


My bad.  I thought when you said "I was a Republican until Nixon" meant you were "a Republican until Nixon".


----------



## MacDre

Desert Hound said:


> Non partisan registration?
> 
> I would lay money you have voted for about everything that makes CA so expensive. Those policies usually come from one side of the aisle.
> 
> On every issue on this forum you go with the more gov angle. I suspect strongly that is how you vote in CA.
> 
> I find it fascinating that the party that claims to be for the little guy consistently implements policies in CA that makes everyday living far more expensive than it should.


I’m in Tallahassee Florida now and it’s cheap as hell here.  California ain’t for everybody; you’ve gotta get in where you fit in.


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> I’m in Tallahassee Florida now and it’s cheap as hell here.  California ain’t for everybody; you’ve gotta get in where you fit in.


I got a chuckle when I came across this today...

"Democrats and economics have a very casual relationship in which the former is quite abusive."


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> My bad.  I thought when you said "I was a Republican until Nixon" meant you were "a Republican until Nixon".


Are you implying that there are only 2 choices?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Non partisan registration?
> 
> I would lay money you have voted for about everything that makes CA so expensive. Those policies usually come from one side of the aisle.
> 
> On every issue on this forum you go with the more gov angle. I suspect strongly that is how you vote in CA.
> 
> I find it fascinating that the party that claims to be for the little guy consistently implements policies in CA that makes everyday living far more expensive than it should.


You would lose.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> When cornered, she attacks with ad hominems.
> 
> But I repeat myself.


That's hilarious when he was the one who dropped the intentionally misleading line, and then when I conceded slopiness, he goes off on it again...see you are up to your usual jokes espola


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> That's hilarious when he was the one who dropped the intentionally misleading line, and then when I conceded slopiness, he goes off on it again...see you are up to your usual jokes espola


Yeah Grace, stop calling everyone a "whiny little bitch".

I find it fascinating the misogynist tendencies that some of the lefties on this site have.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of bad ideas. Unbelievable actually. Who knew that illegally entering a country could be so lucrative. I wonder if these payments go through how that will affect the flow of people wanting to come in illegally? That of course is a trick question for most. Espola? 

"This is no Babylon Bee spoof; this is ripped from the pages of the_ Wall Street Journal._

Though it’s tempting to shake your head in disbelief, read on. Oh, and make sure you shut your slack jaw because things are about to get worse and we don’t want any dribbling.

The Biden Administration is “in talks” with the lawfare crowd at the ACLU to pay illegal aliens about a half a million dollars apiece — $450,000 or $1 million per family — on “behalf of parents and children who say the [U.S.] government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma” during family separation."


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> You repeatedly mix your own personal opinion in, as though it came from the actual scientists.  It's either amazingly sloppy writing, or a deliberate attempt to pretend that your opinion has more support than it really does.


Just my 2 cents.  From my POV, the remarkable burst of research productivity in virology and epidemiology during the pandemic has provided unprecedented, and to some extent near real time and unfiltered, access to scientific work product for decision makers and the public at large. If the public accesses that information and comes to their own opinion, that has to be considered a good thing.  And sure, much of that is just going to be using it as a bullet point supporting some pre-existing position in argumentative debate.  Maybe that's frustrating, but It's a sport and the goal is to win. The same tactics and tells are baked into scientific writing itself; the authors have to present some sort of narrative surrounding their data.  There is career pressure to avoid, well, this data could potentially mean a lot of things.  So, at some point you get "these data show", "it logically follows" etc. with a clause supporting one of several positions laid out at the beginning of the work.  When really what they should say in many cases is "one reasonable interpretation, among a number of other reasonable interpretations that we cannot exclude, is that...." Logically consistent versus logically forcing. Logically consistent can be used to do a lot of heavy lifting that maybe it shouldn't be doing.  But if it is all just a game in the public sphere, well play or don't play.

But as we've also seen there are increasingly well developed mechanisms for purposefully distorting and misappropriating scientific information, some of which the scientific community is playing right into in a remarkably pathetic kind of way.  These cyclic disinformation campaigns are only just getting started and are really going to kick us to the curb at some point.  It's the difference between lying and bullshitting, intent really matters. What we do here is basicially just bullshitting, although there is also some ant lioning going on.  It's all good really.  But the whole "let quantitative information mean whatever you want it to mean" is just start getting started. 



			http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just my 2 cents.  From my POV, the remarkable burst of research productivity in virology and epidemiology during the pandemic has provided unprecedented, and to some extent near real time and unfiltered, access to scientific work product for decision makers and the public at large. If the public accesses that information and comes to their own opinion, that has to be considered a good thing.  And sure, much of that is just going to be using it as a bullet point supporting some pre-existing position in argumentative debate.  Maybe that's frustrating, but It's a sport and the goal is to win. The same tactics and tells are baked into scientific writing itself; the authors have to present some sort of narrative surrounding their data.  There is career pressure to avoid, well, this data could potentially mean a lot of things.  So, at some point you get "these data show", "it logically follows" etc. with a clause supporting one of several positions laid out at the beginning of the work.  When really what they should say in many cases is "one reasonable interpretation, among a number of other reasonable interpretations that we cannot exclude, is that...." Logically consistent versus logically forcing. Logically consistent can be used to do a lot of heavy lifting that maybe it shouldn't be doing.  But if it is all just a game in the public sphere, well play or don't play.
> 
> But as we've also seen there are increasingly well developed mechanisms for purposefully distorting and misappropriating scientific information, some of which the scientific community is playing right into in a remarkably pathetic kind of way.  These cyclic disinformation campaigns are only just getting started and are really going to kick us to the curb at some point.  It's the difference between lying and bullshitting, intent really matters. What we do here is basicially just bullshitting, although there is also some ant lioning going on.  It's all good really.  But the whole "let quantitative information mean whatever you want it to mean" is just start getting started.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf


It's a good point.  A good illustration of this is the Bangladesh mask study and each respective camps takes on it.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Are you implying that there are only 2 choices?


Nope, but your the antithesis of a Libertarian.  You're clearly not a nuanced Democrat/Liberal, so Independent or Moderate is out as well.  Green Party maybe?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I find it fascinating that the party that claims to be for the little guy consistently implements policies in CA that makes everyday living far more expensive than it should.


Not just CA.  Blue states and cities across the country have a nasty habit of making it near impossible to build housing.  Then they express surprise at the cost of living, completely oblivious to their own role in creating the problem.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just my 2 cents.  From my POV, the remarkable burst of research productivity in virology and epidemiology during the pandemic has provided unprecedented, and to some extent near real time and unfiltered, access to scientific work product for decision makers and the public at large. If the public accesses that information and comes to their own opinion, that has to be considered a good thing.  And sure, much of that is just going to be using it as a bullet point supporting some pre-existing position in argumentative debate.  Maybe that's frustrating, but It's a sport and the goal is to win. The same tactics and tells are baked into scientific writing itself; the authors have to present some sort of narrative surrounding their data.  There is career pressure to avoid, well, this data could potentially mean a lot of things.  So, at some point you get "these data show", "it logically follows" etc. with a clause supporting one of several positions laid out at the beginning of the work.  When really what they should say in many cases is "one reasonable interpretation, among a number of other reasonable interpretations that we cannot exclude, is that...." Logically consistent versus logically forcing. Logically consistent can be used to do a lot of heavy lifting that maybe it shouldn't be doing.  But if it is all just a game in the public sphere, well play or don't play.
> 
> But as we've also seen there are increasingly well developed mechanisms for purposefully distorting and misappropriating scientific information, some of which the scientific community is playing right into in a remarkably pathetic kind of way.  These cyclic disinformation campaigns are only just getting started and are really going to kick us to the curb at some point.  It's the difference between lying and bullshitting, intent really matters. What we do here is basicially just bullshitting, although there is also some ant lioning going on.  It's all good really.  But the whole "let quantitative information mean whatever you want it to mean" is just start getting started.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf


I would just add that besides the BS and the misinformation, there is a whole of a lot of gaslighting going on which IMO is a significantly different animal.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I got a chuckle when I came across this today...
> 
> "Democrats and economics have a very casual relationship in which the former is quite abusive."


A mile from my house:


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of bad ideas. Unbelievable actually. Who knew that illegally entering a country could be so lucrative. I wonder if these payments go through how that will affect the flow of people wanting to come in illegally? That of course is a trick question for most. Espola?
> 
> "This is no Babylon Bee spoof; this is ripped from the pages of the_ Wall Street Journal._
> 
> Though it’s tempting to shake your head in disbelief, read on. Oh, and make sure you shut your slack jaw because things are about to get worse and we don’t want any dribbling.
> 
> The Biden Administration is “in talks” with the lawfare crowd at the ACLU to pay illegal aliens about a half a million dollars apiece — $450,000 or $1 million per family — on “behalf of parents and children who say the [U.S.] government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma” during family separation."


What do you think the courts would award when the lawsuit got to a jury?   

Half a million sounds a little low, to be honest.  Maybe @MacDre has a read on it, but I can easily imagine a jury awarding a lot more.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> A mile from my house:
> View attachment 11982


Thumbs down.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> A mile from my house:
> View attachment 11982


I make it a point to gas up the the AZ/CA border as I head in. On the way out I put in just enough gas to get back to the border where prices are substantially lower. 

Compare items you buy in a grocery store in CA vs AZ. Pick the same brands and note the difference in cost. 

The DD does team travel a lot to CA. So sometimes they have the girls pick off the menu of some restaurant of what they want. Last time it was Olive Garden. Most entrees are 1-2 bucks more. 

All the buck hear, buck there adds up pretty quickly and to be honest hurts those that can least afford it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of bad ideas. Unbelievable actually. Who knew that illegally entering a country could be so lucrative. I wonder if these payments go through how that will affect the flow of people wanting to come in illegally? That of course is a trick question for most. Espola?
> 
> "This is no Babylon Bee spoof; this is ripped from the pages of the_ Wall Street Journal._
> 
> Though it’s tempting to shake your head in disbelief, read on. Oh, and make sure you shut your slack jaw because things are about to get worse and we don’t want any dribbling.
> 
> The Biden Administration is “in talks” with the lawfare crowd at the ACLU to pay illegal aliens about a half a million dollars apiece — $450,000 or $1 million per family — on “behalf of parents and children who say the [U.S.] government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma” during family separation."


"You're gonna need a bigger boat"


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I would just add that besides the BS and the misinformation, there is a whole of a lot of gaslighting going on which IMO is a significantly different animal.


I guess it depends on how much ground you want "bullshit" to cover.  Here's something that i bookmarked at one point that seeks to integrate the internet-driven term gaslighting within the broader conception of bullshit set out in Frankfort's classic piece.  Maybe one could say that gaslighting is bullshit taken to a certain extreme. Basically, since bullshit is so prevalent I can argue anything I want and you can argue anything you want. Especially in a digitally constructed space where there are no immediate consquences for being wrong.  If there is no arbitrator of what's right or what's wrong it "logically follows" that can be no lies.  They argue gaslighting is a form of anti-realism that seeks to weaponize bullshit.









						Mourning in America: Gaslighting and Bullshit - In Dark Times
					

Reflections on gaslighting and bullshit, and the differences between these and lying in the strict sense. Exploring the meaning of political gaslighting.




					www.indarktimes.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of bad ideas. Unbelievable actually. Who knew that illegally entering a country could be so lucrative. I wonder if these payments go through how that will affect the flow of people wanting to come in illegally? That of course is a trick question for most. Espola?
> 
> "This is no Babylon Bee spoof; this is ripped from the pages of the_ Wall Street Journal._
> 
> Though it’s tempting to shake your head in disbelief, read on. Oh, and make sure you shut your slack jaw because things are about to get worse and we don’t want any dribbling.
> 
> The Biden Administration is “in talks” with the lawfare crowd at the ACLU to pay illegal aliens about a half a million dollars apiece — $450,000 or $1 million per family — on “behalf of parents and children who say the [U.S.] government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma” during family separation."


Think I'll buy more Crypto.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> A mile from my house:
> View attachment 11982


Check out what's happening to the UK with their gasoline.  We're really close to that happening here too because of the growing truck and truck driver shortage too.

Things are really on the knife's edge right now....one more large winter COVID wave pushes it over the top if the supply issues aren't resolved by Thanksgiving.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> A mile from my house:
> View attachment 11982


Good advertisement for going electric.


----------



## GoldenGate

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I guess it depends on how much ground you want "bullshit" to cover.  Here's something that i bookmarked at one point that seeks to integrate the internet-driven term gaslighting within the broader conception of bullshit set out in Frankfort's classic piece.  Maybe one could say that gaslighting is bullshit taken to a certain extreme. Basically, since bullshit is so prevalent I can argue anything I want and you can argue anything you want. Especially in a digitally constructed space where there are no immediate consquences for being wrong.  If there is no arbitrator of what's right or what's wrong it "logically follows" that can be no lies.  They argue gaslighting is a form of anti-realism that seeks to weaponize bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mourning in America: Gaslighting and Bullshit - In Dark Times
> 
> 
> Reflections on gaslighting and bullshit, and the differences between these and lying in the strict sense. Exploring the meaning of political gaslighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indarktimes.com


IKR.  Just check out all this bs going around on social media (all posts from dead people by the way).

.  They are all just so funny.  Ha ha.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I guess it depends on how much ground you want "bullshit" to cover.  Here's something that i bookmarked at one point that seeks to integrate the internet-driven term gaslighting within the broader conception of bullshit set out in Frankfort's classic piece.  Maybe one could say that gaslighting is bullshit taken to a certain extreme. Basically, since bullshit is so prevalent I can argue anything I want and you can argue anything you want. Especially in a digitally constructed space where there are no immediate consquences for being wrong.  If there is no arbitrator of what's right or what's wrong it "logically follows" that can be no lies.  They argue gaslighting is a form of anti-realism that seeks to weaponize bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mourning in America: Gaslighting and Bullshit - In Dark Times
> 
> 
> Reflections on gaslighting and bullshit, and the differences between these and lying in the strict sense. Exploring the meaning of political gaslighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indarktimes.com


Meh the world isn't flat but there's a small but vocal segment that actually believes its flat.

Part of the issue with the Science TM is that its experts have gotten so vested in orthodoxy and their own status and they forget there is very little by way of objective truth.  The article I posted about the mom and her autistic son is a good example of this.  That's why I've argued it's more important for people to think critically than to just believe one side or the other blindly.

Do strawmanning next....I think we'd all appreciate that.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Do strawmanning next....I think we'd all appreciate that.


With our without referencing your previous posts?


----------



## Grace T.

A wise take in the aftermath of the Lancet study.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454142269137866755


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> With our without referencing your previous posts?


Either way....if espola learns the proper definition of it I'm happy.


----------



## Grace T.

I really think people are losing it and the country is beginning to become unglued.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454105661382533128


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I guess it depends on how much ground you want "bullshit" to cover.  Here's something that i bookmarked at one point that seeks to integrate the internet-driven term gaslighting within the broader conception of bullshit set out in Frankfort's classic piece.  Maybe one could say that gaslighting is bullshit taken to a certain extreme. Basically, since bullshit is so prevalent I can argue anything I want and you can argue anything you want. Especially in a digitally constructed space where there are no immediate consquences for being wrong.  If there is no arbitrator of what's right or what's wrong it "logically follows" that can be no lies.  They argue gaslighting is a form of anti-realism that seeks to weaponize bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mourning in America: Gaslighting and Bullshit - In Dark Times
> 
> 
> Reflections on gaslighting and bullshit, and the differences between these and lying in the strict sense. Exploring the meaning of political gaslighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indarktimes.com


Bullshit, calling a blue car, green.  Gaslighting, there is no car there.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I make it a point to gas up the the AZ/CA border as I head in. On the way out I put in just enough gas to get back to the border where prices are substantially lower.
> 
> Compare items you buy in a grocery store in CA vs AZ. Pick the same brands and note the difference in cost.
> 
> The DD does team travel a lot to CA. So sometimes they have the girls pick off the menu of some restaurant of what they want. Last time it was Olive Garden. Most entrees are 1-2 bucks more.
> 
> All the buck hear, buck there adds up pretty quickly and to be honest hurts those that can least afford it.


I always fill up in Yuma coming home.  Phoenix 3 weeks ago:


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Nope, but your the antithesis of a Libertarian.  You're clearly not a nuanced Democrat/Liberal, so Independent or Moderate is out as well.  Green Party maybe?


Are you implying there are only partisan choices?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Good advertisement for going electric.


My electric dream car:


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Meh the world isn't flat but there's a small but vocal segment that actually believes its flat.
> 
> Part of the issue with the Science TM is that its experts have gotten so vested in orthodoxy and their own status and they forget there is very little by way of objective truth.  The article I posted about the mom and her autistic son is a good example of this.  That's why I've argued it's more important for people to think critically than to just believe one side or the other blindly.
> 
> Do strawmanning next....I think we'd all appreciate that.


I love how facts are now "orthodoxy". I also like how you mention some nonsense story about a mom and her autistic son as evidence that scientists are wrong, and then accuse others of "strawmanning" in the very next sentence.  This shows even less self-awareness than when you claimed you understand the lack of self-awareness in elites because you're one of them.  Did you fall on your head one too many times while equestrian-ing?

But since you like anecdotal stories so much as scientific "evidence", lets parade through another person's story as expressed on tik tok.  I wonder how many memes in her FB feed were also shared by crush?  These tik toks are just so funny, but I sure hope a lot of people donated a dollar to her paypal to make up for the fact that she believed the misinformation that the strict constructionist calls "think[ing] critically".  Enjoy the pearly gates Amy!


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Bullshit, calling a blue car, green.  Gaslighting, there is no car there.


Bullshitting: Coach yells "come on ref...that's not handball...he didn't control the pass and wasn't unnaturally bigger"
Gaslighting: Coach yells "yah blind ref!....he didn't touch it!" when everyone sees he has.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh the world isn't flat but there's a small but vocal segment that actually believes its flat.
> 
> Part of the issue with the Science TM is that its experts have gotten so vested in orthodoxy and their own status and they forget there is very little by way of objective truth.  The article I posted about the mom and her autistic son is a good example of this.  That's why I've argued it's more important for people to think critically than to just believe one side or the other blindly.
> 
> Do strawmanning next....I think we'd all appreciate that.


Orthodoxy is the opposite of science.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Orthodoxy is the opposite of science.


Amazing how that's working now days, isn't it?

As I said before, there's a significant portion of people out there that fancy they are Galileo but in reality they are the church.


----------



## espola




----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> View attachment 11997


a. I think most people cry at those ages and were god damn drama queens....goes hand in hand with being a baby.
b. I WISH I had the chicken pox vaccine.  I wound up catching it when I was 20, had to be hospitalized for it, and would have happily have taken it before then since it had been available years before in Europe than in the US.
c. I particularly doubt you had the rota virus since it's quite new and you are....well you.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> View attachment 11997


Which reminds me, I need the shingles vaccination.



Grace T. said:


> a. I think most people cry at those ages and were god damn drama queens....goes hand in hand with being a baby.
> b. I WISH I had the chicken pox vaccine.  I wound up catching it when I was 20, had to be hospitalized for it, and would have happily have taken it before then since it had been available years before in Europe than in the US.
> c. I particularly doubt you had the rota virus since it's quite new and you are....well you.


The rotavirus vax is legit.  One kid had it, one didn't because its wasn't available.  Huge difference.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> My electric dream car:


I think without that little air cooled engine going pop-pop-pop it would lose a certain charm.  How do they configure the engine in a bed convert like that? It would have originally been in the back.


----------



## espola

Calvin and Hobbes by Bill Watterson for March 06, 1991 | GoComics.com
					

Calvin:  You know, I don't think math is a science.  I think it's a religion.  Hobbes:  A religion?  Calvin:  Yeah.  All these equations are like miracles.  You take two numbers and when you add them, they magically become one new number!  No one can say how it happens.  You either believe it or...




					www.gocomics.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Bullshit, calling a blue car, green.  Gaslighting, there is no car there.


I guess I see gaslighting as more like the blue-ness or green-ness of the car is arbitrary and therefore cannot be determined.  The weaponizing part seems a step further to me along a slippery slope.  See, you and I, we know the car is green.  Those blue car people can't prove otherwise.  "In fact", every thing they put out showing the car is blue "in reality" shows just the opposite.  It's a green car alright. While there is perhaps still room for discussion at this point, there can be little doubt that the blue car people are, at best, deluded in maintaining their blue car nonsense.  But it's worse than that.  They are trying to push their blue car values on us, and stand for a bunch of other harmful foolishness as well. No matter, in this internet space where chickens don't come home to roost we will triumph over the blue car people.  And there will be prizes.  Big prizes.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Are you implying that there are only 2 choices?


Ralph or Ross?


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> I make it a point to gas up the the AZ/CA border as I head in. On the way out I put in just enough gas to get back to the border where prices are substantially lower.
> 
> Compare items you buy in a grocery store in CA vs AZ. Pick the same brands and note the difference in cost.
> 
> The DD does team travel a lot to CA. So sometimes they have the girls pick off the menu of some restaurant of what they want. Last time it was Olive Garden. Most entrees are 1-2 bucks more.
> 
> All the buck hear, buck there adds up pretty quickly and to be honest hurts those that can least afford it.


I went to gas up truck and it was $150, no joke.  Food shoping was insane today.  Its hitting us slowly.  Those who have a job and unlimited rainy day funds can sit on da fence.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I think without that little air cooled engine going pop-pop-pop it would lose a certain charm.  How do they configure the engine in a bed convert like that? It would have originally been in the back.


I hear ya, but I think I can get over losing the charm pretty quickly going 0-60 in 3 seconds.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> Good advertisement for going electric.


Wasn’t it California’s power grid failures causing Brown Outs and some lack of maintenance that lead to some of the massive wildfires recently?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I went to gas up truck and it was $150, no joke.  Food shoping was insane today.  Its hitting us slowly.  Those who have a job and unlimited rainy day funds can sit on da fence.


You should get a job then.  Not one at a company that requires vaccinations, obviously.  I hear In-n-Out might be a good option for you.


----------



## GoldenGate

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I guess I see gaslighting as more like the blue-ness or green-ness of the car is arbitrary and therefore cannot be determined.  The weaponizing part seems a step further to me along a slippery slope.  See, you and I, we know the car is green.  Those blue car people can't prove otherwise.  "In fact", every thing they put out showing the car is blue "in reality" shows just the opposite.  It's a green car alright. While there is perhaps still room for discussion at this point, there can be little doubt that the blue car people are, at best, deluded in maintaining their blue car nonsense.  But it's worse than that.  They are trying to push their blue car values on us, and stand for a bunch of other harmful foolishness as well. No matter, in this internet space where chickens don't come home to roost we will triumph over the blue car people.  And there will be prizes.  Big prizes.


WTF are you talking about?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> My bad.  I thought when you said "I was a Republican until Nixon" meant you were "a Republican until Nixon".


Ha! Refer to my previous post below.



kickingandscreaming said:


> It's because he's full of shit.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> When cornered, she attacks with ad hominems.
> 
> But I repeat myself.


Whiney little bitch


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

It would


watfly said:


> I hear ya, but I think I can get over losing the charm pretty quickly going 0-60 in 3 seconds.


It would probably shake itself apart, but since it's Friday.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  Just check out all this bs going around on social media (all posts from dead people by the way).
> 
> View attachment 11983View attachment 11984View attachment 11985View attachment 11987.  They are all just so funny.  Ha ha.


TL : DR


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Which reminds me, I need the shingles vaccination.


Be ready for some downtime after the 2nd one.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

GoldenGate said:


> WTF are you talking about?


Same vein as the C&H cartoon you liked a bit ago. Social media, fragmentation of objective reality, the politics of division.  New battles in an old war.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I always fill up in Yuma coming home.  Phoenix 3 weeks ago:View attachment 11996


Yeah, but to get that price on the norm you have to actually live there. No thanks.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah, but to get that price on the norm you have to actually live there. No thanks.


I've used up all my Zonie jokes on Desert Hound, so I can't help you out.

Plus they stayed open during the pandemic for things like youth soccer, so I don't want to sound ungrateful.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah, but to get that price on the norm you have to actually live there. No thanks.


We support your stance on geographical preferences.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> We support your stance on geographical preferences.


Yes please stay in CA. 

Don't be a locust. IE create policies that make CA unaffordable, move because of that, then come to AZ and vote for the same policies that made you move in the first place.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> A mile from my house:
> View attachment 11982


I see what you did with that picture there.  Gaslighting.  Well played slipping that in all quiet like.  You win my share of the internet for the day.  If I could soup up an old VW bus for the jump to hyperdrive I'd give it to you.  Congrats!  See-prizes.


----------



## NorCalDad

Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19 Among Adults Hospitalized ...
					

This report describes mRNA COVID-19 vaccine recipients as having greater immunity from COVID-19 infection than previously infected, unvaccinated persons.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19 Among Adults Hospitalized ...
> 
> 
> This report describes mRNA COVID-19 vaccine recipients as having greater immunity from COVID-19 infection than previously infected, unvaccinated persons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Home cooking?  Sounds like were going to have a showdown of the studies...US vs Israel.  Curious to see how this turns it.  Just more conflicting information, expert roulette.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Home cooking?  Sounds like were going to have a showdown of the studies...US vs Israel.  Curious to see how this turns it.  Just more conflicting information, expert roulette.


Ergo, no commentary from me, just the link.


----------



## NorCalDad

Supreme Court declines to block Maine vaccine mandate
					

Only New York and Rhode Island also have vaccine mandates for health care workers that lack religious exemptions.




					www.politico.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bill Maher rails against COVID restrictions: It's time to admit pandemic is 'over'
					

"Real Time" host Bill Maher railed against ongoing COVID restrictions, declaring the pandemic “over.”




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Bill Maher rails against COVID restrictions: It's time to admit pandemic is 'over'
> 
> 
> "Real Time" host Bill Maher railed against ongoing COVID restrictions, declaring the pandemic “over.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Slowly but surely people and governments are bowing to reality. 

It is not possible to run restrictions like they want on a virus that is here to stay.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Promising, cheap, available treatment









						Cheap, generic anti-depressant may reduce severe Covid-19 disease, study finds | CNN
					

A cheap, generically available anti-depressant may reduce the risk of severe Covid-19 disease by close to a third in people at high risk, researchers reported Wednesday.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Bill Maher rails against COVID restrictions: It's time to admit pandemic is 'over'
> 
> 
> "Real Time" host Bill Maher railed against ongoing COVID restrictions, declaring the pandemic “over.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


I guess Maher bumped into dad on his travels.

_"The HBO star complained about the "messaging" regarding COVID, pointing to people he had seen outside *"alone walking with a mask," stressing "it's so stupid."*

"It's an amulet, you know? A charm people wear around the neck that wards away evil spirits.* It means nothing,*" Maher said. "I mean, can't we get people to understand the facts more?"_


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I guess Maher bumped into dad on his travels.
> 
> _"The HBO star complained about the "messaging" regarding COVID, pointing to people he had seen outside *"alone walking with a mask," stressing "it's so stupid."*
> 
> "It's an amulet, you know? A charm people wear around the neck that wards away evil spirits.* It means nothing,*" Maher said. "I mean, can't we get people to understand the facts more?"_


Yes, that hit me as well. Here in Santa Clara County, I still see plenty of people, outside, masked, walking alone, and stepping into the street when they cross paths with others.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, that hit me as well. Here in Santa Clara County, I still see plenty of people, outside, masked, walking alone, and stepping into the street when they cross paths with others.


It amazes me.

My bro and sis in law fall into that category. They came out from LA to visit. I told my wife I lay money they pull up in the car with masks on. Sure enough they did. The 2 of them who obviously live together wore masks the entire time from their house to ours.

It is just stupid what people do.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Slowly but surely people and governments are bowing to reality.
> 
> It is not possible to run restrictions like they want on a virus that is here to stay.


I believe Coons disagrees with you. First, we need to vaccinate the world.

"One of the critical things that's being discussed right now by President Biden, one of the things we have to recommit ourselves to, is supporting vaccination around the rest of the world," Coons responded. "There's still a lot of countries that are very, very minimally vaccinated because if a variant develops out in the world that is able to defeat the vaccine, we are all the way back to the beginning. So in the United States, in most of the western world, we're ready to be done with this, but we're not done until the world is safe and we're not safe as a world until the world's vaccinated."


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe Coons disagrees with you. First, we need to vaccinate the world.
> 
> "One of the critical things that's being discussed right now by President Biden, one of the things we have to recommit ourselves to, is supporting vaccination around the rest of the world," Coons responded. "There's still a lot of countries that are very, very minimally vaccinated because if a variant develops out in the world that is able to defeat the vaccine, we are all the way back to the beginning. So in the United States, in most of the western world, we're ready to be done with this, but we're not done until the world is safe and we're not safe as a world until the world's vaccinated."


I saw that quote. It isn't happening. 

Those countries that have not really vaxxed up? 3rd world countries with corrupt and inefficient governments. 

I have been to over 40 countries for mainly work. Just seeing how many of those function no way we put our lives on hold hoping those countries finally do something efficiently.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Slowly but surely people and governments are bowing to reality.
> 
> It is not possible to run restrictions like they want on a virus that is here to stay.


We have evolved with the 55 million year old virus.  Nearly 8 billion of us!  We depend on viral updates.


----------



## crush

Breaking News:  Ice Cube drops out of big time movie for just saying, "No to Jabs."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I saw that quote. It isn't happening.
> 
> Those countries that have not really vaxxed up? 3rd world countries with corrupt and inefficient governments.
> 
> I have been to over 40 countries for mainly work. Just seeing how many of those function no way we put our lives on hold hoping those countries finally do something efficiently.


It's a ridiculous, yet telling statement to make when you consider that with everyone in the US having the opportunity to get the vaccine we haven't vaccinated enough people to satisfy Coons. Maybe if I wear my mask every moment when I am awake, it will make more sense.

I'll note another "goal post" move but that's not really news nor unexpected anymore, is it? I can't wait until the whole world is vaccinated and we still need to wear a mask at the grocery in SC county.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Breaking News:  Ice Cube drops out of big time movie for just saying, "No to Jabs."
> 
> View attachment 11999


Probably owns a bunch of bitcoin.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's a ridiculous, yet telling statement to make when you consider that with everyone in the US having the opportunity to get the vaccine we haven't vaccinated enough people to satisfy Coons. Maybe if I wear my mask every moment when I am awake, it will make more sense.
> 
> I'll note another "goal post" move but that's not really news nor unexpected anymore, is it? I can't wait until the whole world is vaccinated and we still need to wear a mask at the grocery in SC county.


A total goal post move waiting on the world. 

Those in the US that have wanted to get vaxxed have. Time to move on and live life. 

For the vast majority of us vaxxes dont make much of a difference anyway. We pretend otherwise (look at the urgency to get kids vaxxed). The only group really at risk is the old and/or individual with serious health issues. If you don't fall into one of those 2 categories the risk is negligible.


----------



## NorCalDad

Two informative links followed up by opinions/actions by Bill Maher and Ice Cube.  Well played....well played.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> A total goal post move waiting on the world.
> 
> Those in the US that have wanted to get vaxxed have. Time to move on and live life.
> 
> For the vast majority of us vaxxes dont make much of a difference anyway. We pretend otherwise (look at the urgency to get kids vaxxed). The only group really at risk is the old and/or individual with serious health issues. If you don't fall into one of those 2 categories the risk is negligible.


After a year I don't believe we really know all the risk.  The only difference is the tyrannical interventions that proves we have more sheep in this country than New Zealand.  Never though I'd see the day when a NZ Prime minister would blatantly admit that the Kiwi government is creating two classes of people.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Two informative links followed up by opinions/actions by Bill Maher and Ice Cube.  Well played....well played.


Watch this and the next video for more follow up NorCal Dad.  WTF up and stop watching fake news!!!!









						Save the children!!! We cannot let the children be vaccinated!!!
					

Video taken from Covid Vaccine Injuries. - Omg! Plus others just sat there and watched him fall and didn’t even try to help him.  Telegram: https://t.me/covidvaxinjury




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Israeli girl collapses from Pfizer jab, bystander videotaping warns others about what is happening!
					

Video taken from Covid Vaccine Injuries. - When will this vaccination madness finally be stopped?  Telegram: https://t.me/covidvaxinjury




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

NorCalDad said:


> Two informative links followed up by opinions/actions by Bill Maher and Ice Cube.  Well played....well played.


Good thing you had your mask on.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

The desperation in the Evermaskers is painfully obvious when people start talking about going back to normal.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Are you implying there are only partisan choices?


You've shown there to be ignorant choices as well.

But, at least there are no mean tweets - ISIS Terror Warning Issued for Virginia Malls


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The desperation in the Evermaskers is painfully obvious when people start talking about going back to normal.


There has been a small uptick in California this week in cases and positivity.  If we look at last year it was the same time that the winter wave began it’s slow start. Start of the winter wave?

if so the desperation of the Evermaskers/Forciblevaxxees is going to get quite epic and things will be taking a turn for the ugly if the wave winds up to be even moderately big


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> There has been a small uptick in California this week in cases and positivity.  If we look at last year it was the same time that the winter wave began it’s slow start. Start of the winter wave?
> 
> if so the desperation of the Evermaskers/Forciblevaxxees is going to get quite epic and things will be taking a turn for the ugly if the wave winds up to be even moderately big


I think the logical thing is to assume as a respiratory disease it will act like the FLU. IE During winter months you will see more of it. 

Most of us will say...OK...it is what it is. Many will think that is a reason to keep restrictions on year by year.


----------



## Yak

Grace T. said:


> There has been a small uptick in California this week in cases and positivity.  If we look at last year it was the same time that the winter wave began it’s slow start. Start of the winter wave?
> 
> if so the desperation of the Evermaskers/Forciblevaxxees is going to get quite epic and things will be taking a turn for the ugly if the wave winds up to be even moderately big


It is interesting that the July 2020 peak in hospitalizations in OC (first wave) in was around 700.  The peak for the third wave in August 2021 was close to 600, around 90% of whom were not fully vaccinated.  So will a fourth wave look like the second, with more than 2000 hospitalizations in OC and will those hospitalized be mostly unvaccinated as in the most recent wave?  We will know within a few months.


----------



## MicPaPa

This video from the G20 is something else, never thought I'd see the day where America is treated and disrespected like this.

Scroll through to when they bring in doctors and first responders and disperse them amongst the world leaders for the photo, tells you all you need to know about Xiden and those who voted for him.









						Joe Biden G20 photo is embarrassing…
					

Joe Biden Nearly Pushed Off the Stage in Today’s G20 Rome Official Photo   As you are facing the photo, Biden is on the extreme far left, standing alone         G-20 leader…




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I think the logical thing is to assume as a respiratory disease it will act like the FLU. IE During winter months you will see more of it.
> 
> Most of us will say...OK...it is what it is. Many will think that is a reason to keep restrictions on year by year.


The logical thing is to look at the data, which has seen surges in July 2020, January 2021, and September 2021.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> This video from the G20 is something else, never thought I'd see the day where America is treated and disrespected like this.
> 
> Scroll through to when they bring in doctors and first responders and disperse them amongst the world leaders for the photo, tells you all you need to know about Xiden and those who voted for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden G20 photo is embarrassing…
> 
> 
> Joe Biden Nearly Pushed Off the Stage in Today’s G20 Rome Official Photo   As you are facing the photo, Biden is on the extreme far left, standing alone         G-20 leader…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizenfreepress.com


Sell soul to money and this is what you get.  It goes to the deepest of our souls.  30 silver coins is all it took to betray the Truth.  TGIFS!!!


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The logical thing is to look at the data, which has seen surges in July 2020, January 2021, and September 2021.


The logical thing to do is call you a liar & cheater.  Wow Espola, you used to help parents out in soccer but you sold out.  That's too bad.....


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> The logical thing is to look at the data, which has seen surges in July 2020, January 2021, and September 2021.


Right, you and logic, that's comical. You voted for an old babbling idiot with dementia. Ah, come to think of it, this  describes you, now it all makes sense. That's logic.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Yak said:


> It is interesting that the July 2020 peak in hospitalizations in OC (first wave) in was around 700.  The peak for the third wave in August 2021 was close to 600, around 90% of whom were not fully vaccinated.  So will a fourth wave look like the second, with more than 2000 hospitalizations in OC and will those hospitalized be mostly unvaccinated as in the most recent wave?  We will know within a few months.


I'll say the next hospitalization wave due to COVID will be significantly lower.

Current evidence suggests those most at risk of hospitalization are unvaccinated and also haven't had it yet but that is not particularly straightforward to determine. It also likely matters which variant someone caught and the length of time since the vaccination/booster.

It makes sense to focus on overall hospitalizations going forward as testing positive doesn't always indicate symptoms are present or the symptoms are no more than that of a cold. This scenario is/should be more common going forward if the vaccine truly protects from hospitalization as evidence suggests. Here's my unresearched take. After the current wave (which is still playing out a bit in the northern states), the virus and/or vaccine has been well spread across US population, and a large portion of the US was back to very near-normal activity. Assuming "breakthrough" infections are not rampant and not as severe (It's bad if R >1 AND the hospitalization rate is near to what it was), the states that have been back to normal won't see a nearly as significant rise in hospitalizations as they did previously. Those states with many restrictions may see a bigger percentage rise compared to the states without restrictions as they go back to normal or a slower, longer low rise if they continue restrictions (flatten the curve scenario). Now if breakthrough infections are common enough to create an R > 1 and infections are as severe there's no end in sight. Fortunately, there is no evidence of this.

Reasons to be optimistic things will improve
- Our immune system has a long history of surviving viruses about 99% of those who get COVID survive (98.2% of those who test positive)
- The vaccine offers protection from variants.
- Having gone through our population, many of those at the highest risk have already been exposed.
- Many states have been back to normal so their "R" isn't artificially low due to behavior modifications.
- Treatments are improving

There's still time to start exercising more and losing some weight. In some cases, this can lower your risk more than the vaccine. Also, lower weight and better aerobic health "works" regardless of the variant.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> The logical thing is to look at the data, which has seen surges in July 2020, January 2021, and September 2021.


Oh, OK.  So when I look at CA mask requirements and restrictions and see a surge, it is logical to assume those didn't work. Thanks!


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, OK.  So when I look at CA mask requirements and restrictions and see a surge, it is logical to assume those didn't work. Thanks!


No, it's because anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers like you didn't comply, duh.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'll say the next hospitalization wave due to COVID will be significantly lower.
> 
> Current evidence suggests those most at risk of hospitalization are unvaccinated and also haven't had it yet but that is not particularly straightforward to determine. It also likely matters which variant someone caught and the length of time since the vaccination/booster.
> 
> It makes sense to focus on overall hospitalizations going forward as testing positive doesn't always indicate symptoms are present or the symptoms are no more than that of a cold. This scenario is/should be more common going forward if the vaccine truly protects from hospitalization as evidence suggests. Here's my unresearched take. After the current wave (which is still playing out a bit in the northern states), the virus and/or vaccine has been well spread across US population, and a large portion of the US was back to very near-normal activity. Assuming "breakthrough" infections are not rampant and not as severe (It's bad if R >1 AND the hospitalization rate is near to what it was), the states that have been back to normal won't see a nearly as significant rise in hospitalizations as they did previously. Those states with many restrictions may see a bigger percentage rise compared to the states without restrictions as they go back to normal or a slower, longer low rise if they continue restrictions (flatten the curve scenario). Now if breakthrough infections are common enough to create an R > 1 and infections are as severe there's no end in sight. Fortunately, there is no evidence of this.
> 
> Reasons to be optimistic things will improve
> - Our immune system has a long history of surviving viruses about 99% of those who get COVID survive (98.2% of those who test positive)
> - The vaccine offers protection from variants.
> - Having gone through our population, many of those at the highest risk have already been exposed.
> - Many states have been back to normal so their "R" isn't artificially low due to behavior modifications.
> - Treatments are improving
> 
> There's still time to start exercising more and losing some weight. In some cases, this can lower your risk more than the vaccine. Also, lower weight and better aerobic health "works" regardless of the variant.


I got it and I am in the best shape of my life.  My wife loves me, my ds called me yesterday to just say hi and not ask for $$$ and my dd is turning the corner from being 17.  The logical reasoning in my brain is that I have nothing to worry about and neither does my family, who got it already too. We have strong Cherokee bloodline ((where the Braves got their name)) mixed with super strong William Wallace Scottish Highlander Bloodline.  We are a powerful magnet of love K&S.  I can;t wait to share more good news about my family.  The tide is turning.  Fucking Golden Gate has his head up his ass.  I wish I could share all the gossip in my family but it's best I keep it on the down low bro.  Goat is going places is all I can say.....lol!!!  TGIFS!!!!


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, OK.  So when I look at CA mask requirements and restrictions and see a surge, it is logical to assume those didn't work. Thanks!


Interesting conclusion.  I was looking a data for all of  USA.  My comment referred to the assumed seasonal effect of the infection.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Interesting conclusion.  I was looking a data for all of  USA.  My comment referred to the assumed seasonal effect of the infection.


Yes, exactly. “Seasonal effect” is an effect on the “R” value in the same way NPI’s are supposed to effect R. Neither is a guarantee that R will be < 1. Quite some time ago @dad4 explained it to you.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, exactly. “Seasonal effect” is an effect on the “R” value in the same way NPI’s are supposed to effect R. Neither is a guarantee that R will be < 1. Quite some time ago @dad4 explained it to you.


 What seasonal effect factor does one assign to a data set that is displaying no seasonal behavior?


----------



## MicPaPa

Must Watch! Yet, kids wear masks all day in school. 

Brave men and women didn't sacrifice life and limb for freedoms that are so willingly and easily surrendered. Pathetic.









						The Masked Theater of the Elite…
					

World leaders rip their masks off after photo shoot.




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> What seasonal effect factor does one assign to a data set that is displaying no seasonal behavior?


I am not an epidemiologist but most of this stuff is out there. I welcome anyone more qualified to correct any misconceptions below.

Any virus that is aerosolized will be seasonal as its "R0" will vary throughout the year based on changing humidity and temperature as well as normal behavioral changes associated with the seasons that will put people inside unventilated areas more often. Also, the humidity/temperature in the unventilated (and ventilated for that matter) areas will also have an effect on R and that tends to change during the year. See the link below. The first sentence (shown below the link) is a statement of seasonality.









						The Role of Dry Winter Air in Spreading COVID-19
					

Low relative humidity can aid in the transmission of COVID-19 in three primary ways. Learn what you should do to create a safer environment at home.




					www.uhhospitals.org
				




"As Americans head indoors for the winter, they find themselves at increased risk of contracting and spreading COVID-19 due to lower levels of humidity in the air."

As far as the factor to apply, ask @dad4. He may have an idea. It will vary depending on the virus and it's especially difficult when a virus is first introduced - hence the reference to the "novel" corona virus. The best case is that the COVID variants aren't produced as efficiently as the flu and the combination of getting it and getting vaccinated eventually pushes it to R < 1 regardless of the "season" and variant. I believe the next best scenario is what @Desert Hound describes - a "flu-like" seasonality where the R0 > 1 for part of the year. The worst case is well all get it and die - although, at close to a 99% survival rate, that may take a while.


----------



## met61

...wait, what did he say?

*"Vaccine hesitancy is never based on facts and data." ~Albert Boula, Pfizer CEO*

... exactly, because the hesitant are uneducated rubes...wait! uuuh, SQUIRREL!


----------



## met61

MicPaPa said:


> Must Watch! Yet, kids wear masks all day in school.
> 
> Brave men and women didn't sacrifice life and limb for freedoms that are so willingly and easily surrendered. Pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Masked Theater of the Elite…
> 
> 
> World leaders rip their masks off after photo shoot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizenfreepress.com


...tell me about it, just look at the sheep on this forum..."thank you sir may I have another!"


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am not an epidemiologist but most of this stuff is out there. I welcome anyone more qualified to correct any misconceptions below.
> 
> Any virus that is aerosolized will be seasonal as its "R0" will vary throughout the year based on changing humidity and temperature as well as normal behavioral changes associated with the seasons that will put people inside unventilated areas more often. Also, the humidity/temperature in the unventilated (and ventilated for that matter) areas will also have an effect on R and that tends to change during the year. See the link below. The first sentence (shown below the link) is a statement of seasonality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Role of Dry Winter Air in Spreading COVID-19
> 
> 
> Low relative humidity can aid in the transmission of COVID-19 in three primary ways. Learn what you should do to create a safer environment at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.uhhospitals.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "As Americans head indoors for the winter, they find themselves at increased risk of contracting and spreading COVID-19 due to lower levels of humidity in the air."
> 
> As far as the factor to apply, ask @dad4. He may have an idea. It will vary depending on the virus and it's especially difficult when a virus is first introduced - hence the reference to the "novel" corona virus. The best case is that the COVID variants aren't produced as efficiently as the flu and the combination of getting it and getting vaccinated eventually pushes it to R < 1 regardless of the "season" and variant. I believe the next best scenario is what @Desert Hound describes - a "flu-like" seasonality where the R0 > 1 for part of the year. The worst case is well all get it and die - although, at close to a 99% survival rate, that may take a while.


Lots of unknowns and assumptions in there.  I am also not an epidemiologist, so I limited my analysis to what I do know -- analyzing large data sets looking for frequency components.  If I had told my boss "Ignore the data, we know how it is supposed to work" I would have been transferred to the marketing department.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Lots of unknowns and assumptions in there.  I am also not an epidemiologist, so I limited my analysis to what I do know -- analyzing large data sets looking for frequency components.  If I had told my boss "Ignore the data, we know how it is supposed to work" I would have been transferred to the marketing department.


Yes, with all viruses there are unknowns and assumptions that must be made to come to any conclusions. It's why the experts' predictions are often incorrect.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Lots of unknowns and assumptions in there.  I am also not an epidemiologist, so I limited my analysis to what I do know -- analyzing large data sets looking for frequency components.  If I had told my boss "Ignore the data, we know how it is supposed to work" I would have been transferred to the marketing department.


That's how we got Fauci.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The Use of Knowledge in Society, by Friedrich Hayek, is arguably one of the most important economic papers to have ever been written. Unlike highly theoretical, inconsequential, and esoteric modern academic research that is read by nobody, the 11 pages of this paper continue to be read widely 70 years after its publication, and have had a lasting impact on the lives and businesses of many people worldwide, perhaps none as significant as its role in the founding of one of the most important websites on the Internet, and the largest single body of knowledge assembled in human history. *Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia’s founder, has stated that the idea for establishing Wikipedia came to him after he read this paper by Hayek and his explanation of knowledge.                   *

Hayek explained that contrary to popular and elementary treatments of the topic, *the economic problem is not merely the problem of allocating resources and products, but more accurately, the problem of allocating them using knowledge that is not given in its totality to any single individual or entity. Economic knowledge of the conditions of production, the relative availability and abundance of the factors of production, and the preferences of individuals, is not objective knowledge that can be fully known to a single entity. Rather, the knowledge of economic conditions is by its very nature distributed and situated with the people concerned by their individual decisions. *Every human’s mind is consumed in learning and understanding the economic information relevant to them. Highly intelligent and hardworking individuals will spend decades learning the economic realities of their industries in order to reach positions of authority over the production processes of one single good. *It is inconceivable that all these individual decisions being carried out by everyone could be substituted by aggregating all that information into one individual’s mind to perform the calculations for everyone. Nor is there a need for this insane quest to centralize all knowledge into one decision maker’s hands.--Saifedeen.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, with all viruses there are unknowns and assumptions that must be made to come to any conclusions. It's why the experts' predictions are often incorrect.


 The State is almost universally considered an institution of social service. Some theorists venerate the State as the apotheosis of society; others regard it as an amiable, though often inefficient, organization for achieving social ends; but almost all regard it as a necessary means for achieving the goals of mankind, a means to be ranged against the “private sector” and often winning in this competition of resources. *With the rise of democracy, the identification of the State with society has been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, “we are the government.” The useful collective term “we” has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If “we are the government,” then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and un-tyrannical but also “voluntary” on the part of the individual concerned.* If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that “we owe it to ourselves”; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is “doing it to himself” and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. *Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have “committed suicide,” since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, therefore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part. One would not think it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fallacy to a greater or lesser degree. * 

We must, therefore, emphasize that “we” are not the government; the government is not “us.” *The government does not in any accurate sense “represent” the majority of the people. But, even if it did, even if 70 percent of the people decided to murder the remaining 30 percent, this would still be murder and would not be voluntary suicide on the part of the slaughtered minority. No organicist metaphor, no irrelevant bromide that “we are all part of one another,” must be permitted to obscure this basic fact.   * 

*If, then, the State is not “us,” if it is not “the human family” getting together to decide mutual problems, if it is not a lodge meeting or country club, what is it? Briefly, the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion. While other individuals or institutions obtain their income by production of goods and services and by the peaceful and voluntary sale of these goods and services to others, the State obtains its revenue by the use of compulsion; that is, by the use and the threat of the jailhouse and the bayonet.* Having used force and violence to obtain its revenue, the State generally goes on to regulate and dictate the other actions of its individual subjects. *One would think that simple observation of all States through history and over the globe would be proof enough of this assertion; but the miasma of myth has lain so long over State activity that elaboration is necessary.-- Rothbard *


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> What seasonal effect factor does one assign to a data set that is displaying no seasonal behavior?


Huh?  

So far, covid has shown a pretty strong seasonal correlation.  ( Have you completely forgotten last winter? ).  There are other factors, too.    But no one important seems to doubt that there is a weather effect.

I have not bothered trying to predict whether there will be a winter surge.  My county has a high enough vax rate that we can probably hospitalize the remaining high risk anti-vaxxers, as needed.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Huh?
> 
> So far, covid has shown a pretty strong seasonal correlation.  ( Have you completely forgotten last winter? ).  There are other factors, too.    But no one important seems to doubt that there is a weather effect.
> 
> I have not bothered trying to predict whether there will be a winter surge.  My county has a high enough vax rate that we can probably hospitalize the remaining high risk anti-vaxxers, as needed.


There were also peaks in the summer of 2020 and the summer of 2021.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> There were also peaks in the summer of 2020 and the summer of 2021.


When you understand that your comment above regarding COVID and the seasonality of COVID as @dad4 described it are not incompatible, you will have gained new knowledge.


----------



## crush

*The 'Delta Plus' variant —AY.4.2— has been detected in New York and California, but experts say not to panic..........yet*

The experts say this is the daughter of the original Delta.  The brother I hear is gnarly and out of control.  No more waves you guys.  They mutated to become family members now.  Cousin Henry is evil so watch out!~!!


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Huh?
> 
> So far, covid has shown a pretty strong seasonal correlation.  ( Have you completely forgotten last winter? ).  There are other factors, too.    But no one important seems to doubt that there is a weather effect.
> 
> I have not bothered trying to predict whether there will be a winter surge. * My county has a high enough vax rate that we can probably hospitalize the remaining high risk anti-vaxxers, as needed.*


It's exactly these types of statements that drive public health professionals crazy (at least the ones that stay out of politics).

The hospitization and deaths in vaccinated patients is on an upward trend througout the country.  It's interesting how reluctant the CDC has been in collecting data on infections in vaccinated people and disseminating it the public.  They've reluctantly pushed out data on deaths and hospitalization in places like MA, NV, WV.   But don't you worry, vaccinating children 5-12 at the tail end of a pandemic is going to solve the problem.   Adults seem to be very scared of young kids these days.  Little germ factories. 

What does a high risk anti-vaxxer look like in Santa Clara county?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Huh?
> 
> So far, covid has shown a pretty strong seasonal correlation.  ( Have you completely forgotten last winter? ).  There are other factors, too.    But no one important seems to doubt that there is a weather effect.
> 
> I have not bothered trying to predict whether there will be a winter surge.  My county has a high enough vax rate that we can probably hospitalize the remaining high risk anti-vaxxers, as needed.


The weather effect?  Please explain this.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Huh?
> 
> So far, covid has shown a pretty strong seasonal correlation.  ( Have you completely forgotten last winter? ).  There are other factors, too.    But no one important seems to doubt that there is a weather effect.
> 
> I have not bothered trying to predict whether there will be a winter surge.  My county has a high enough vax rate that we can probably hospitalize the remaining high risk anti-vaxxers, as needed.


Sounds like a prediction.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> When you understand that your comment above regarding COVID and the seasonality of COVID as @dad4 described it are not incompatible, you will have gained new knowledge.


When you can snatch the pebble from my hand you are ready Grasshopper.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> What does a high risk anti-vaxxer look like in Santa Clara county?


I think based on dads phobio he would classify that person as someone who is vaxxed, who is healthy, but refuses to wear a N95 mask while walking outside.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> There were also peaks in the summer of 2020 and the summer of 2021.


Shit stacking, a.k.a. peaks,  became the national past time of the self anointed experts in the marketing department.  Dad 4 hyped the cases while denying death rates that were on the floor.  Now he is abandoning those case rates to deny natural immunity by his socialist marketing of the term "anti-vaxxer" to describe the millions who have probably already had anti-bodies for the 55 million year old virus that the PCR test could never date stamp.  Spare us the weather nonsense.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> When you understand that your comment above regarding COVID and the seasonality of COVID as @dad4 described it are not incompatible, you will have gained new knowledge.


The best articles I can find on covid seasonality were published before the summer 2021 peak in USA.  Meanwhile, cases and deaths are both sliding slowly downward.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

met61 said:


> ...wait, what did he say?
> 
> *"Vaccine hesitancy is never based on facts and data." ~Albert Boula, Pfizer CEO*


He's not wrong. Upton Sinclair said it better though:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The best articles I can find on covid seasonality were published before the summer 2021 peak in USA.  Meanwhile, cases and deaths are both sliding slowly downward.


Marketing suits you.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> When you can snatch the pebble from my hand you are ready Grasshopper.


I steal my "quotes" from all the great teachers


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> The best articles I can find on covid seasonality were published before the summer 2021 peak in USA.  Meanwhile, cases and deaths are both sliding slowly downward.


When you understand that your (latest) comment above regarding COVID and the seasonality of COVID as @dad4 described it are not incompatible, you will have gained new knowledge.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It's exactly these types of statements that drive public health professionals crazy (at least the ones that stay out of politics).
> 
> The hospitization and deaths in vaccinated patients is on an upward trend througout the country.  It's interesting how reluctant the CDC has been in collecting data on infections in vaccinated people and disseminating it the public.  They've reluctantly pushed out data on deaths and hospitalization in places like MA, NV, WV.   But don't you worry, vaccinating children 5-12 at the tail end of a pandemic is going to solve the problem.   Adults seem to be very scared of young kids these days.  Little germ factories.
> 
> What does a high risk anti-vaxxer look like in Santa Clara county?


What does a high risk anti vaxxer look like in SCC?

64, overweight and diabetic but thinks he’s healthy.  Won’t get a shot because he thinks he’s immune because he caught a cold in Feb 2020.

Now, if you have some brilliant plan to convince him that he actually needs the shot, go for it.  I think they’re already trying everything they can think of.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> What does a high risk anti vaxxer look like in SCC?
> 
> 64, overweight and diabetic but thinks he’s healthy.  Won’t get a shot because he thinks he’s immune because he caught a cold in Feb 2020.
> 
> Now, if you have some brilliant plan to convince him that he actually needs the shot, go for it.  I think they’re already trying everything they can think of.


Weight loss is better than a vaccine any day.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> It's exactly these types of statements that drive public health professionals crazy (at least the ones that stay out of politics).
> 
> The hospitization and deaths in vaccinated patients is on an upward trend througout the country.  It's interesting how reluctant the CDC has been in collecting data on infections in vaccinated people and disseminating it the public.  They've reluctantly pushed out data on deaths and hospitalization in places like MA, NV, WV.   But don't you worry, vaccinating children 5-12 at the tail end of a pandemic is going to solve the problem.   Adults seem to be very scared of young kids these days.  Little germ factories.
> 
> What does a high risk anti-vaxxer look like in Santa Clara county?


Minnesota seems to be attempting to track breakthrough infections.  Probably data that both Team Virus and Team Victim can quote, but clearly breakthrough infections are not a rare occurrence.   Curious to know how many partially vaccinated are included in the "not fully vaccinated" category.  Potentially understates breakthrough infections.



			https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/stats/vbt.html


----------



## watfly

Get ready for the "twindemic" fear porn.  It was predicted last winter and the flu ended up being virtually non-existent, but now experts are really serious that it will happen this winter.  Plenty of articles, but I chose this one, because it begins "Experts Fear ...", which for most Americans means "ignore this article", but for a few it means "stock up on masks and Depends."









						Are we heading toward a COVID-19 and flu 'twindemic' this season?
					

Experts fear a COVID-19 and flu ’twindemic' that may result in people having both potentially dangerous infections simultaneously.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## MARsSPEED

Well I think it is finally time to chime in after 272 pages...

I'm vaxxed and will be having my booster this week. Even my kids are vaxxed. Bet you didn't see that coming.

BUT, I am anti-mandate and will fight mandates hand over fist.

If you want to be more protected against getting sicker with CoVid, get vaxxed. If you don't, probably not the smartest idea, but it's your life and your body. If you are vaxxed, you are as protected as you can possibly be. Vaxxed spread just as much as the un-vaxxed. Giving the government the power to tell you what to do without liberty would be the biggest mistake our country could ever make. Remember this, it will be a snowball effect. I stand for personal liberty and freedom. My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Anything else is totalitarian and socialist.  

That's all. Have a good day.


----------



## watfly

MARsSPEED said:


> Well I think it is finally time to chime in after 272 pages...
> 
> I'm vaxxed and will be having my booster this week. Even my kids are vaxxed. Bet you didn't see that coming.
> 
> BUT, I am anti-mandate and will fight mandates hand over fist.
> 
> If you want to be more protected against getting sicker with CoVid, get vaxxed. If you don't, probably not the smartest idea, but it's your life and your body. If you are vaxxed, you are as protected as you can possibly be. Vaxxed spread just as much as the un-vaxxed. Giving the government the power to tell you what to do without liberty would be the biggest mistake our country could ever make. Remember this, it will be a snowball effect. I stand for personal liberty and freedom. My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Anything else is totalitarian and socialist.
> 
> That's all. Have a good day.


The crazy part is that this apparently makes you an anti-vaxxer if you don't believe everyone should be forced to get a vaccination.


----------



## Desert Hound

MARsSPEED said:


> Giving the government the power to tell you what to do without liberty would be the biggest mistake our country could ever make. Remember this, it will be a snowball effect.


^^^^THIS^^^^

It will be a snowball effect. Gov only grows in terms of power and reach.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> What does a high risk anti vaxxer look like in SCC?
> 
> 64, overweight and diabetic but thinks he’s healthy.  Won’t get a shot because he thinks he’s immune because he caught a cold in Feb 2020.
> 
> Now, if you have some brilliant plan to convince him that he actually needs the shot, go for it.  I think they’re already trying everything they can think of.


Why should you convince him/her?  Almost 90% of that demographic has been vaccinated.  I don't have brilliant plan and frankly don't really care.  Due diligence has been done to ensure that person understands their risk. 

If they are overweight, diabetic, and 64, they clearly understand the implications of their choices.  I'm sure their provider has been talking about their health risk for some time.  Santa Clara county is one of the safest novel virus environments in this hemisphere.  Your vaccination rates are through the roof.  I'm sure there are parents calling their pediatricion every day to see when the pfizer kid doses will arrive.  The last piece of the puzzle for SC county is vaccinating 5-12s.  

Sit back and enjoy the sunset with a glass of great wine in hand.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Minnesota seems to be attempting to track breakthrough infections.  Probably data that both Team Virus and Team Victim can quote, but clearly breakthrough infections are not a rare occurrence.  * Curious to know how many partially vaccinated are included in the "not fully vaccinated" category.  Potentially understates breakthrough infections.*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/stats/vbt.html


It's a good question.  The CDC classifies someone passing from covid inside of 14 days after 1st dose or JJ as *unvaccinated.*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> Well I think it is finally time to chime in after 272 pages...
> 
> I'm vaxxed and will be having my booster this week. Even my kids are vaxxed. Bet you didn't see that coming.
> 
> BUT, I am anti-mandate and will fight mandates hand over fist.
> 
> If you want to be more protected against getting sicker with CoVid, get vaxxed. If you don't, probably not the smartest idea, but it's your life and your body. If you are vaxxed, you are as protected as you can possibly be. Vaxxed spread just as much as the un-vaxxed. Giving the government the power to tell you what to do without liberty would be the biggest mistake our country could ever make. Remember this, it will be a snowball effect. I stand for personal liberty and freedom. My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Anything else is totalitarian and socialist.
> 
> That's all. Have a good day.


So you are pro-choice, got it.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

MARsSPEED said:


> Well I think it is finally time to chime in after 272 pages...
> 
> I'm vaxxed and will be having my booster this week. Even my kids are vaxxed. Bet you didn't see that coming.
> 
> BUT, I am anti-mandate and will fight mandates hand over fist.
> 
> If you want to be more protected against getting sicker with CoVid, get vaxxed. If you don't, probably not the smartest idea, but it's your life and your body. If you are vaxxed, you are as protected as you can possibly be. Vaxxed spread just as much as the un-vaxxed. Giving the government the power to tell you what to do without liberty would be the biggest mistake our country could ever make. Remember this, it will be a snowball effect. I stand for personal liberty and freedom. My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Anything else is totalitarian and socialist.
> 
> That's all. Have a good day.


Hayek would be proud.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you are pro-choice, got it.


Were your parents masked when they made you?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> The crazy part is that this apparently makes you an anti-vaxxer if you don't believe everyone should be forced to get a vaccination.


No one should be forced to get vaxxed, but, private businesses (and all government controlled areas) also should have the right to dictate who they employ or who they do business with, period.


----------



## Grace T.

a middle of the road article.  Don't agree with everything in it but points out we need an offramp.  My main criticism is that we had goalposts already....they keep getting moved......I'm not sure "and this time we really really mean it" is going to convince anyone now on either side.





__





						America Has Lost the Plot on COVID
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> It's a good question.  The CDC classifies someone passing from covid inside of 14 days after 1st dose or JJ as *unvaccinated.*


That doesn't seem unreasonable.  I was thinking more of outside the 14 days for a 2 dose vaccine.  Isn't the claimed immunity something like 80% after 1st dose and low 90's after 2nd dose?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one should be forced to get vaxxed, but, private businesses (and all government controlled areas) also should have the right to dictate who they employ or who they do business with, period.


Please use the Today in Fascism thread in the future.


----------



## Brav520

Vax mandate politics shifting, per NBC poll:

"Do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose requiring that everyone who is now eligible must get a COVID-19 vaccine?"

Favor 47% (34% strongly)
Oppose 50% (41% strongly)


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> That doesn't seem unreasonable.  I was thinking more of outside the 14 days for a 2 dose vaccine.  Isn't the claimed immunity something like 80% after 1st dose and low 90's after 2nd dose?


Depends on the study.  Kaiser and Pfizer show immunity peaking in the high 80s/low nineties shortly after delivery (a month or so after the 1st dose)  with acclerating waning after 4 months with a trajectory to 20% shortly after 4 months.  Studies out of Israel and Qatar generally back this up.  There are so many studies flying around that it's hard to pin anyone down on what's ground truth.  Anything coming out of pharma has to be scrutinized carefully.  

Compare that to small decrease (5-10%) per year for other vaccines (MMR for example).  A signifant drop is evident in MRNA vaccines especially in Pfizer.  The sweet spot is being vaccinated and then contracting the virus.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one should be forced to get vaxxed, but, private businesses (and all government controlled areas) also should have the right to dictate who they employ or who they do business with, period.


We will see how far that gets up.


----------



## MARsSPEED

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one should be forced to get vaxxed, but, private businesses (and all government controlled areas) also should have the right to dictate who they employ or who they do business with, period.


I'm not going to disagree with that, as long as it is not GVMT mandate. If a private business chooses to loose quality employees over it's vaxx policy, so be it.

It's all still incredibly stupid to me. I ask you again, are you protected against the unvaxxed if you are vaxxed? Ok, so then why the hell do you care if someone is vaxxed or not??? There isn't even a valid argument. 

Oh and as for pro-choice. I'm not for or against. It's not my place to judge. But why should baby daddy have to pay child support for a kid he didn't want? And why should baby momma abort the kid that baby did want? Oh the irony.


----------



## MARsSPEED

watfly said:


> The crazy part is that this apparently makes you an anti-vaxxer if you don't believe everyone should be forced to get a vaccination.


I'm pro-vax age 25 and up but anti-mandate. I'm anti-vaxx under the age of 25 with the exception of underlying conditions. My kids got vaxxed because we were forced to in youth sports. I am extremely anti-vax under the age of 12. So that makes me an Proantivaxxer or Antiprovaxxer. LOL.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Why should you convince him/her?  Almost 90% of that demographic has been vaccinated.  I don't have brilliant plan and frankly don't really care.  Due diligence has been done to ensure that person understands their risk.
> 
> If they are overweight, diabetic, and 64, they clearly understand the implications of their choices.  I'm sure their provider has been talking about their health risk for some time.  Santa Clara county is one of the safest novel virus environments in this hemisphere.  Your vaccination rates are through the roof.  I'm sure there are parents calling their pediatricion every day to see when the pfizer kid doses will arrive.  The last piece of the puzzle for SC county is vaccinating 5-12s.
> 
> Sit back and enjoy the sunset with a glass of great wine in hand.


Don't disagree with much of what you wrote, especially the wine part.  But, it's a pretty big leap to think an anti-vaxxer is regularly seeing their "provider".  Up in these neck of the woods, the anti-vaxxer varietal we see more of is they type that consults with their Shaman.


----------



## watfly

MARsSPEED said:


> I'm pro-vax age 25 and up but anti-mandate. I'm anti-vaxx under the age of 25 with the exception of underlying conditions. My kids got vaxxed because we were forced to in youth sports. I am extremely anti-vax under the age of 12. So that makes me an Proantivaxxer or Antiprovaxxer. LOL.


My kids are both vaxxed because I think it was the right decision, but we held out awhile for my son who was 13.  My 17 DD, now 18, still has a side effect from vax.  Under 12, with no underlying conditions, I just don't see much point in vaccination, but might consider it depending on the situation.  Fortunately, we don't have to make that decision.  If I had wife or child that were trying to have a child, I would be strongly against vaccination.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 12007





Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 12008


I'm struggling...are these both satire, are they both real, is one real and the other satire?  It used to be easy to figure out, but these days you never can be too sure.


----------



## Dominic

This is about saving lives and not about money . What if down the road they find that the vaccine has a serious side effect...


----------



## Dominic

Thanks to covid I have not caught a cold in 18 months!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> I'm not going to disagree with that, as long as it is not GVMT mandate. If a private business chooses to loose quality employees over it's vaxx policy, so be it.
> 
> It's all still incredibly stupid to me. I ask you again, are you protected against the unvaxxed if you are vaxxed? Ok, so then why the hell do you care if someone is vaxxed or not??? There isn't even a valid argument.
> 
> Oh and as for pro-choice. I'm not for or against. It's not my place to judge. But why should baby daddy have to pay child support for a kid he didn't want? And why should baby momma abort the kid that baby did want? Oh the irony.


“Quality employees”? If they won’t get vaxxed they are a liability.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Quality employees”? If they won’t get vaxxed they are a liability.


It appears we are losing public safety employees who do not believe in public safety and medical care employees who do not believe in medical science.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> It appears we are losing public safety employees who do not believe in public safety and medical care employees who do not believe in medical science.


Those EXACT SAME PEOPLE where “heros” 12 months ago, so what changed, the science or the politics?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Quality employees”? If they won’t get vaxxed they are a liability.





espola said:


> It appears we are losing public safety employees who do not believe in public safety and medical care employees who do not believe in medical science.


Talk about paralyzed by fear and inability to assess risk.  If I'm in serious car accident or having a heart attack I don't give shit what the vaccination status of my first responder is.  Hey thanks for saving my life, but I'm going to sue you because you might have given me Covid.  What kind of POS does that?  The problem is not any real liability caused by the the unvaccinated emergency workers, the problem is the feeble minded assholes that want to sue.

How ungrateful can you be?  These people showed up for work for months and risked their lives with the added risk of Covid and now you want to crap on them.  Un-freaking-believable.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Talk about paralyzed by fear and inability to assess risk.  If I'm in serious car accident or having a heart attack I don't give shit what the vaccination status of my first responder is.  Hey thanks for saving my life, but I'm going to sue you because you might have given me Covid.  What kind of POS does that?  The problem is not any real liability caused by the the unvaccinated emergency workers, the problem is the feeble minded assholes that want to sue.
> 
> How ungrateful can you be?  These people showed up for work for months and risked their lives with the added risk of Covid and now you want to crap on them.  Un-freaking-believable.


Would you like a tissue?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Would you like a tissue?


Would you like some cajones?


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Those EXACT SAME PEOPLE where “heros” 12 months ago, so what changed, the science or the politics?


I don't know that their politics changed, but they made their choices in face of the knowledge of the consequences.  That looks like a political stance to me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker4Life said:


> Those EXACT SAME PEOPLE where “heros” 12 months ago, so what changed, the science or the politics?


Another “all” and “every” assumption? Lol! Nice try!


----------



## MARsSPEED

espola said:


> It appears we are losing public safety employees who do not believe in public safety and medical care employees who do not believe in medical science.


If fellow employees an


Hüsker Dü said:


> “Quality employees”? If they won’t get vaxxed they are a liability.


Please @espola and @Hüsker Dü  or anyone else that believes in mandates, answer me three questions.

*1. If you or others are vaxxed and both protected from CoVid and spread CoVid at  almost the same rate as the unvaxxed, why do you care if others choose not to be vaccinated? *

It does not affect you. That is their choice to put themselves in harms way. It is not you or the government that needs to play mommy or daddy.

2. Understanding the above, why should anyone lose their job when they those who are unvaxxed only present danger to others who have also chosen to be unvaxxed? The vaxx is available to anyone now so there isn't any excuses.

3. Why should children ages 3 to 12 be vaxxed at all? The Flu does in fact kill 3x more children this age than CoVid. *The Flu vaccine is not mandated so why should the CoVid vaccine be? One might even be able to argue that the Vaxx could kill/or harm more Children than CoVid itself. *

Don't give me answer "stop the spread" as CoVid is here to stay. Positive tests have been 3x what they were a year ago from August to October, post vaccine. Understanding the above, I simply just want to know what your thinking and/or justification is knowing the above. Thanks.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Quality employees”? If they won’t get vaxxed they are a liability.


Drinking that kool aid again.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Drinking that kool aid again.


He sold out bro and it's not Cherry kool aid he's drinking.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I don't know that their politics changed, but they made their choices in face of the knowledge of the consequences.  That looks like a political stance to me.


Choice based on logic, principle, or politics? 

Let's see how this plays out in NYC, the AF, and elsewhere.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Choice based on logic, principle, or politics?
> 
> Let's see how this plays out in NYC, the AF, and elsewhere.


I don't see the logic of it.  If the choice is based on principle, that is by definition politixal.









						Fact Check-Story about 27 U.S. Air Force pilots resigning over COVID-19 vaccine mandate comes from false news website
					

Updating to include comment from Barksdale Air Force Base spokesperson, adjusting verdict to reflect this.




					www.reuters.com
				












						No, F-22 pilots aren’t ‘walking off the job’ to avoid the COVID-19 vaccine
					

A viral Twitter video claiming that Air Force F-22 pilots are quitting over the COVID-19 vaccine mandate is false on so many levels.




					taskandpurpose.com


----------



## watfly

MARsSPEED said:


> If fellow employees an
> 
> 
> Please @espola and @Hüsker Dü  or anyone else that believes in mandates, answer me three questions.
> 
> *1. If you or others are vaxxed and both protected from CoVid and spread CoVid at  almost the same rate as the unvaxxed, why do you care if others choose not to be vaccinated? *
> 
> It does not affect you. That is their choice to put themselves in harms way. It is not you or the government that needs to play mommy or daddy.
> 
> 2. Understanding the above, why should anyone lose their job when they those who are unvaxxed only present danger to others who have also chosen to be unvaxxed? The vaxx is available to anyone now so there isn't any excuses.
> 
> 3. Why should children ages 3 to 12 be vaxxed at all? The Flu does in fact kill 3x more children this age than CoVid. *The Flu vaccine is not mandated so why should the CoVid vaccine be? One might even be able to argue that the Vaxx could kill/or harm more Children than CoVid itself. *
> 
> Don't give me answer "stop the spread" as CoVid is here to stay. Positive tests have been 3x what they were a year ago from August to October, post vaccine. Understanding the above, I simply just want to know what your thinking and/or justification is knowing the above. Thanks.


IMHO its a victim mentality.  If something bad happens to me its someone else's fault.  The left's appeal and policies rely on a large victim class. The unvaccinated (the bogeyman) versus the vaccinated (the innocent victim) is just an outgrowth of this, but on steroids.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I don't see the logic of it.  If the choice is based on principle, that is by definition politixal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-Story about 27 U.S. Air Force pilots resigning over COVID-19 vaccine mandate comes from false news website
> 
> 
> Updating to include comment from Barksdale Air Force Base spokesperson, adjusting verdict to reflect this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, F-22 pilots aren’t ‘walking off the job’ to avoid the COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> A viral Twitter video claiming that Air Force F-22 pilots are quitting over the COVID-19 vaccine mandate is false on so many levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> taskandpurpose.com


How's your definition of "seasonality" coming along?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> How's your definition of "seasonality" coming along?


I use the established one.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> IMHO its a victim mentality.  If something bad happens to me its someone else's fault.  The left's appeal and policies rely on a large victim class. The unvaccinated (the bogeyman) versus the vaccinated (the innocent victim) is just an outgrowth of this, but on steroids.


Excellent take on how the left ((Dems, Marxist, Communist, KKK, Pros, Libs)) play victim games.  Just look at Espola and Husker.  These are modern day Marxist.  It's clear as day.  That's why Marx Espola never answers a Q and his Robin is always by his side. Both are neither R or D or S or I, Just C & M!


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I don't see the logic of it.  If the choice is based on principle, that is by definition politixal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-Story about 27 U.S. Air Force pilots resigning over COVID-19 vaccine mandate comes from false news website
> 
> 
> Updating to include comment from Barksdale Air Force Base spokesperson, adjusting verdict to reflect this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, F-22 pilots aren’t ‘walking off the job’ to avoid the COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> A viral Twitter video claiming that Air Force F-22 pilots are quitting over the COVID-19 vaccine mandate is false on so many levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> taskandpurpose.com


Both certainly silly articles.  The truth  is 4% of the AF is refusing to comply.  How do you separate 12K and still maintain readiness?  As they say, leadership challenge.  The services have been clear on the consequences of refusal.  This will get interesting.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing and everyone falls in line.  Maybe it's a standoff.  Bottom line is readiness is an issue, more of an issue to the Pentagon than it is to A1C Joe Schmoe.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Both certainly silly articles.  The truth  is 4% of the AF is refusing to comply.  How do you separate 12K and still maintain readiness?  As they say, leadership challenge.  The services have been clear on the consequences of refusal.  This will get interesting.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing and everyone falls in line.  Maybe it's a standoff.  Bottom line is readiness is an issue, more of an issue to the Pentagon than it is to A1C Joe Schmoe.


Poopy boy!!!!  Marx and Husker love this guy for a reason.  No one is guarding the mice.  I warned everyone a long time ago about this scam & plan to cheat America, lie to America and then steal from her.  We the People will be in charge soon.  No way my neighbors want to live with Marx and Husker types.  These men are from the bloodline of Cain or his offspring or worse


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Both certainly silly articles.  The truth  is 4% of the AF is refusing to comply.  How do you separate 12K and still maintain readiness?  As they say, leadership challenge.  The services have been clear on the consequences of refusal.  This will get interesting.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing and everyone falls in line.  Maybe it's a standoff.  Bottom line is readiness is an issue, more of an issue to the Pentagon than it is to A1C Joe Schmoe.


Air Force has a history of being coddled.

An old Navy joke -- When the Navy gets funding to establish a new air station, the first construction is on runways and hangars.  When the Air Force gets similar funding, the first construction is on the officers club and swimming pool.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> *Air Force has a history of being coddled.*


Oh really?  What about Space Force?


----------



## crush

Vax vs Non Vax at the work place is not going good.  It's all a part of their evil plan.  Black vs White.  Heaven vs Hell.  R vs D.  L vs C.  Marxist vs God. The list goes on and on.  It's "We the People of the United States of America" only in the future   My pal said the in fighting at his company is gnarly. He has a Marx Espola/Husker type boss WHO is a dick to work for and no one likes him.  He sold his soul to his boss ((ass kisser)), who sold his soul to the owner ((another ass kicker)) and it's toxic and evil place to work.  However, he has bills to pay and shuts his mouth or will be fired!!!  The pressure put on airline is hitting fever pitch.  It's not safe to fly.  









						Why flying is so bad and about to get worse
					

Canceled flights, packed planes, rising fares and violent outbursts are the new normal for air travel. Flying is getting worse for both passengers and crews.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Air Force has a history of being coddled.
> 
> An old Navy joke -- When the Navy gets funding to establish a new air station, the first construction is on runways and hangars.  When the Air Force gets similar funding, the first construction is on the officers club and swimming pool.


That's an old services joke, not germane to the Navy.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Both certainly silly articles.  The truth  is 4% of the AF is refusing to comply.  How do you separate 12K and still maintain readiness?  As they say, leadership challenge.  The services have been clear on the consequences of refusal.  This will get interesting.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing and everyone falls in line.  Maybe it's a standoff.  Bottom line is readiness is an issue, more of an issue to the Pentagon than it is to A1C Joe Schmoe.











						Air Force retention spiked amid COVID. Now, retention bonuses might be cut
					

The Air Force stresses that no involuntary measures are being considered in fiscal 2021.




					www.airforcetimes.com


----------



## dad4

MARsSPEED said:


> Please @espola and @Hüsker Dü  or anyone else that believes in mandates, answer me three questions.
> 
> *1. If you or others are vaxxed and both protected from CoVid and spread CoVid at  almost the same rate as the unvaxxed, why do you care if others choose not to be vaccinated? *


Easy enough.

Your facts on this are just off.  Vaccinated people do not catch and spread covid at the same rate as unvaccinated.  

Vaccinated people are less likely to catch covid, and stay transmissible for a shorter time.   The only thing which matches is peak viral load among those who catch it.

But the “among those who catch it” clause is key.  Vaccinated folks are catching covid at about 1/6 the rate of unvaccinated.  That reduction on the incoming side lowers R overall.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Both certainly silly articles.  The truth  is 4% of the AF is refusing to comply.  How do you separate 12K and still maintain readiness?  As they say, leadership challenge.  The services have been clear on the consequences of refusal.  This will get interesting.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing and everyone falls in line.  Maybe it's a standoff.  Bottom line is readiness is an issue, more of an issue to the Pentagon than it is to A1C Joe Schmoe.


4% is an awfully high number for an org conditioned to obey orders with no or little questioning, where there's a valid government rationale (military readiness), and where they take some vaccines which also have nasty side effects and aren't forced on the general public.  Imagine what it will be like when push comes to shove with children.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Easy enough.
> 
> Your facts on this are just off.  Vaccinated people do not catch and spread covid at the same rate as unvaccinated.
> 
> Vaccinated people are less likely to catch covid, and stay transmissible for a shorter time.   The only thing which matches is peak viral load among those who catch it.
> 
> But the “among those who catch it” clause is key.  Vaccinated folks are catching covid at about 1/6 the rate of unvaccinated.  That reduction on the incoming side lowers R overall.


This argument only works if there isn't fading immunity (the 1/6 rate....the range is probably somewhere between 1/3 and 1/8 and we don't really know because of the time element...1/6 may be a blended rate based on where population immunity is at any one time) from vaccines and the 1/6 is enough of a slide down the R to prevent outbreaks (which given what's happening in Iceland, Singapore, Norway, Finland and Ireland is a little bit dubious right now).   If vaccine protection against infection slides down to near zero after some time, unless you are going to mandate boosters constantly (and if people are off the train now, imagine what they'll do with constant boosters) this doesn't hold water.  You'd have to compare someone's ability to transmit unvaccinated to post vaxx 3 months to post vaxx 6 months to post vaxx a year.  If that year number approaches the unvaccinated transmission numbers, your argument collapses.

You also have to draw the distinction between unvaccinated and unvaccinated but prior infection as those rates are going to be different.


----------



## Grace T.

Good summation of the evidence so far....









						New Evidence for Lab-Leak Hypothesis of Covid's Origins
					

A new NIH letter reinforces the lab-leak hypothesis for the origins of Covid-19.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Good summation of the evidence so far....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Evidence for Lab-Leak Hypothesis of Covid's Origins
> 
> 
> A new NIH letter reinforces the lab-leak hypothesis for the origins of Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


Joel Zinberg is a senior fellow at Competitive Enterprise Institute.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> This argument only works if there isn't fading immunity (the 1/6 rate....the range is probably somewhere between 1/3 and 1/8 and we don't really know because of the time element...1/6 may be a blended rate based on where population immunity is at any one time) from vaccines and the 1/6 is enough of a slide down the R to prevent outbreaks (which given what's happening in Iceland, Singapore, Norway, Finland and Ireland is a little bit dubious right now).   If vaccine protection against infection slides down to near zero after some time, unless you are going to mandate boosters constantly (and if people are off the train now, imagine what they'll do with constant boosters) this doesn't hold water.  You'd have to compare someone's ability to transmit unvaccinated to post vaxx 3 months to post vaxx 6 months to post vaxx a year.  If that year number approaches the unvaccinated transmission numbers, your argument collapses.
> 
> You also have to draw the distinction between unvaccinated and unvaccinated but prior infection as those rates are going to be different.


The argument works whether the number is 1/3, 1/6, or 1/8.  

If the vax reduces my odds of catching covid, then it reduces the odds of my transmitting covid.   Arguing about 1/3 versus 1/8 is just quibbling over whether it reduces transmission by 66% or 87%.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Easy enough.
> 
> Your facts on this are just off.  Vaccinated people do not catch and spread covid at the *same rate* as unvaccinated.
> 
> Vaccinated people are* less likely* to catch covid, and stay transmissible for a *shorter time.*   The only thing which matches is peak viral load among those who catch it.
> 
> But the “among those who catch it” clause is key.  *Vaccinated folks are catching covid at about 1/6 the rate of unvaccinated*.  That reduction on the incoming side lowers R overall.


Links please to be up your misleading wording.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 4% is an awfully high number for an org conditioned to obey orders with no or little questioning, where there's a valid government rationale (military readiness), and where they take some vaccines which also have nasty side effects and aren't forced on the general public.  Imagine what it will be like when push comes to shove with children.


I bet most of the 4% are in the top 1% of the Top Guns.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 4% is an awfully high number for an org conditioned to obey orders with no or little questioning, where there's a valid government rationale (military readiness), and where they take some vaccines which also have nasty side effects and aren't forced on the general public.  Imagine what it will be like when push comes to shove with children.


It looks like it's going to be around a 1/3 (that split is really really stubborn isn't it....hasn't moved since March 2020)....higher in some parts of the country and lower in others









						New survey highlights parent concerns for vaccinating kids 5-11
					

Some of their biggest concerns include the unknown, long-term effects, serious side effects, and infertility




					www.ksdk.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The argument works whether the number is 1/3, 1/6, or 1/8.
> 
> If the vax reduces my odds of catching covid, then it reduces the odds of my transmitting covid.   Arguing about 1/3 versus 1/8 is just quibbling over whether it reduces transmission by 66% or 87%.


then you don't understand your own argument.  If it reduces it by only 50% there's no point in the mandate (at least as far as it reduces transmission....the virus is still going to circulate, everyone is going to catch it as their immunity falls, outbreaks aren't prevented).  It doesn't do anything to actually control an outbreak.

The argument you are left with is you need to force the idiots to take it for their own safety and good.  But that's problematic too:  a) if the idiots are so stupid you are forcing them to take a vaccine, why do you trust them with responsibilities like voting?, b) anyone under 30 is pretty much off the hook, and c) it pretty much undermines the entire my body my choice thing.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Joel Zinberg is a senior fellow at Competitive Enterprise Institute.


Yes, but Lawrence Tabak is not.  Read his letter.

WIV was conducting experiments to see if they could engineer a bat coronavirus to attach to a human ACE2 receptor.

Two years later, we have a global pandemic caused by a bat coronavirus that attaches to a human ACE2 receptor.

So, maybe natural processes just happened to duplicate the exact research they were doing at WIV, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same location.

Or maybe some moron failed to properly maintain containment when they moved the lab in Wuhan.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Yes, but Lawrence Tabak is not.  Read his letter.
> 
> WIV was conducting experiments to see if they could engineer a bat coronavirus to attach to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> Two years later, we have a global pandemic caused by a bat coronavirus that attaches to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> So, maybe natural processes just happened to duplicate the exact research they were doing at WIV, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same location.
> 
> Or maybe some moron failed to properly maintain containment when they moved the lab in Wuhan.


If you take out the opinion and politics from the Zinberg article, there is not much left.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It looks like it's going to be around a 1/3 (that split is really really stubborn isn't it....hasn't moved since March 2020)....higher in some parts of the country and lower in others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New survey highlights parent concerns for vaccinating kids 5-11
> 
> 
> Some of their biggest concerns include the unknown, long-term effects, serious side effects, and infertility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ksdk.com


Unknown and long term side effects is a game of "who the fuck knows?"  On one side, you have Dr. Fraud mixing Bats, Beagles, Human Baby Parts and Monkey Parts all in one vaccine Mix.  His boy Bill is buying all the farm land.  Zuck is now META, which means death.  Jeffrey played with all them. Look parent, if you want to send your kid to Jab City and life time Boosters for life, that is your choice.  I also have a choice to tell my kids to stay away from needles, especially the one's made by Dr. Fraud and his money hungry businessmen and business boss ladies.  Record month for big pharma reps!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> then you don't understand your own argument.  If it reduces it by only 50% there's no point in the mandate (at least as far as it reduces transmission....the virus is still going to circulate, everyone is going to catch it as their immunity falls, outbreaks aren't prevented).  It doesn't do anything to actually control an outbreak.
> 
> The argument you are left with is you need to force the idiots to take it for their own safety and good.  But that's problematic too:  a) if the idiots are so stupid you are forcing them to take a vaccine, why do you trust them with responsibilities like voting?, b) anyone under 30 is pretty much off the hook, and c) it pretty much undermines the entire my body my choice thing.


You’re changing the topic again.

Hound wanted to know why people wanted a mandate if vax and unvax transmit the same.

Simple answer is, they do not transmit the same.

Case closed.  

If you want a new discussion about how a 50% reduction to R changes the scope of outbreaks, that‘s fine.  Go take the classes you need to be able to have that discussion.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> If you take out the opinion and politics from the Zinberg article, there is not much left.


Did you read the Tabak letter?


----------



## watfly

Here's the thing with young kids.  The vaccination doesn't provide any material benefit to them unless they have other conditions.  So the question becomes should my child get injected for the sole reason of a potential benefit to others?   I don't know that most parents will find that a very compelling reason that their young child should have the responsibility to protect adults.  I think that would require a major cultural mindset shift, the media is in hyperdrive with promoting this shift, but I just don't think the majority of the general population is buying it.

Like I said before I put the over/under at 40% for 5-11 vaccinations.  I'm beginning to think that's too high.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You’re changing the topic again.
> 
> Hound wanted to know why people wanted a mandate if vax and unvax transmit the same.
> 
> Simple answer is, they do not transmit the same.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> If you want a new discussion about how a 50% reduction to R changes the scope of outbreaks, that‘s fine.  Go take the classes you need to be able to have that discussion.


You’ve been ignoring virus history from day one.  You people assume that transmission is bad all the time.  Which is false.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re changing the topic again.
> 
> Hound wanted to know why people wanted a mandate if vax and unvax transmit the same.
> 
> Simple answer is, they do not transmit the same.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> If you want a new discussion about how a 50% reduction to R changes the scope of outbreaks, that‘s fine.  Go take the classes you need to be able to have that discussion.


you just completely ducked the answer and tried to reframe the debate because you are scared and don't like where it's leading you.

I chose the 50% amount because at only a 50% reduction, it's self evident with an R of 6 or greater that isn't going to cut it.  Where it gets tricky is if it's 80% or 66% reduction.   Then: a) the number are hard (you are right...the math then is beyond me), b) as we know the inputs matter in those models and that's where the experts get it wrong....they are guessing as to the exact inputs especially since there's a time variable it seems, and c) they don't even have the data right now to justify 80%.

But if vaccine immunity is declining substantially with time, it renders all this moot.  Eventually, without boosters, you will hit the point where some vaxxed are transmitting at or near the same as unvaxxed.  and if people are rebelling now, think what happens with constant boosters every six months (here's a hint: never going to happen).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Easy enough.
> 
> Your facts on this are just off.  Vaccinated people do not catch and spread covid at the same rate as unvaccinated.
> 
> Vaccinated people are less likely to catch covid, and stay transmissible for a shorter time.   The only thing which matches is peak viral load among those who catch it.
> 
> But the “among those who catch it” clause is key.  Vaccinated folks are catching covid at about 1/6 the rate of unvaccinated.  That reduction on the incoming side lowers R overall.


Wrong again.  Vaccinated previous infected are much less likely to get and retransmit covid than vaccinated not previously infected.  Stop cherry picking your science.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> If you take out the opinion and politics from the Zinberg article, there is not much left.


Your "focus" never fails to amuse.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Here's the thing with young kids.  The vaccination doesn't provide any material benefit to them unless they have other conditions.  So the question becomes should my child get injected for the sole reason of a potential benefit to others?   I don't know that most parents will find that a very compelling reason that their young child should have the responsibility to protect adults.  I think that would require a major cultural mindset shift, the media is in hyperdrive with promoting this shift, but I just don't think the majority of the general population is buying it.
> 
> Like I said before I put the over/under at 40% for 5-11 vaccinations.  I'm beginning to think that's too high.


I think nationally it's somewhere 50-60%...again the numbers haven't moved since March 2020.  You have a 1/3 which is team reality/virus, 1/3 which is team panic/Science TM, and a 1/3 which is basically compliant until it goes too far.  Mandates and partial mandates (such as mandating for elective activities such as sports) can move that center 1/3.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Yes, but Lawrence Tabak is not.  Read his letter.
> 
> WIV was conducting experiments to see if they could engineer a bat coronavirus to attach to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> Two years later, we have a global pandemic caused by a bat coronavirus that attaches to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> So, maybe natural processes just happened to duplicate the exact research they were doing at WIV, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same location.
> 
> Or maybe some moron failed to properly maintain containment when they moved the lab in Wuhan.


We know what Occam's razor says about this.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your "focus" never fails to amuse.


I assume you read the article.  What did I get wrong?


----------



## crush

ECNL Vaccine Showcase Rules.  Q me this.  How does one know who is and who is not jabbed?  

Any unvaccinated player, staff member or attendee who is exposed to an individual diagnosed with COVID-19 (less than 6 feet away for 15 minutes or more within a 24-hour period) will be restricted from play/the facility. Ø Any unvaccinated player, staff member or attendee who is exposed to an individual with suspected COVID-19 will be restricted from play/the facility unless the symptomatic individual can demonstrate a negative test. Ø Fully vaccinated, asymptomatic individuals who are exposed to an individual with suspected or diagnosed COVID-19 do not need to be restricted from play/ the facility. Ø Any symptomatic player will be restricted from play until their symptoms have fully resolved for 24 hours AND they can demonstrate a negative test


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> If fellow employees an
> 
> 
> Please @espola and @Hüsker Dü  or anyone else that believes in mandates, answer me three questions.
> 
> *1. If you or others are vaxxed and both protected from CoVid and spread CoVid at  almost the same rate as the unvaxxed, why do you care if others choose not to be vaccinated? *
> 
> It does not affect you. That is their choice to put themselves in harms way. It is not you or the government that needs to play mommy or daddy.
> 
> 2. Understanding the above, why should anyone lose their job when they those who are unvaxxed only present danger to others who have also chosen to be unvaxxed? The vaxx is available to anyone now so there isn't any excuses.
> 
> 3. Why should children ages 3 to 12 be vaxxed at all? The Flu does in fact kill 3x more children this age than CoVid. *The Flu vaccine is not mandated so why should the CoVid vaccine be? One might even be able to argue that the Vaxx could kill/or harm more Children than CoVid itself. *
> 
> Don't give me answer "stop the spread" as CoVid is here to stay. Positive tests have been 3x what they were a year ago from August to October, post vaccine. Understanding the above, I simply just want to know what your thinking and/or justification is knowing the above. Thanks.


“Mandates”? Who said anything about mandates? Oh yeah, you did. Is “No shoes, no shirt, no service!” a “mandate”? How about, “before enrolling your child in school make sure they have all their proper paperwork together, birth certificate, contact information, medical history including vaccines and booster shots”?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> a middle of the road article.  Don't agree with everything in it but points out we need an offramp.  My main criticism is that we had goalposts already....they keep getting moved......I'm not sure "and this time we really really mean it" is going to convince anyone now on either side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> America Has Lost the Plot on COVID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


It struck me as significant that Bill Maher, who is probably a bit left of center politically, had such a strong reaction to keeping both the vaccine AND mask requirements. It will be interesting how long restrictions hold.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Did you read the Tabak letter?


The one that ends like this?

"The analysis attached confirms that the bat coronaviruses studied under the EcoHealth Alliance grant could not have been the source of SARS-CoV-2 and the COVID- 19 pandemic."



			https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/nih-eco-health-alliance-letter/512f5ee70ce9c67c/full.pdf


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I assume you read the article.  What did I get wrong?


Do you mean besides COVID's seasonality?


----------



## crush

*Over 20 Fauci-Funded Researchers Have Served At the Chinese Communist-Run Wuhan Lab.*
Nearly 1000 U.S. funded grants from Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins have landed in the laps of collaborators of the Chinese Communist Party's Wuhan Institute of Virology


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The argument works whether the number is 1/3, 1/6, or 1/8.
> 
> If the vax reduces my odds of catching covid, then it reduces the odds of my transmitting covid.   Arguing about 1/3 versus 1/8 is just quibbling over whether it reduces transmission by 66% or 87%.


They’ll cling to anything and everything they can to stay afloat . . . at least in the eyes of themselves and the others of similar ilk.


----------



## crush

Iik-a type of people or things similar to those already referred to


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Mandates”? Who said anything about mandates? Oh yeah, you did. Is “No shoes, no shirt, no service!” a “mandate”? How about, “before enrolling your child in school make sure they have all their proper paperwork together, birth certificate, contact information, medical history including vaccines and booster shots”?


they don't mandate the flu shot.  If we the COVID shot is more like the flu shot (doesn't protect sufficiently against spread to make a significant impact) then there's no point to mandating the COVID shot.  If the COVID shot is more like the measles shot (protects significantly against spread if enough in the community have it) then there's that rationale.  Unfortunately, the evidence so far overwhelming leans more towards like a flu shot than the measles shots.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> they don't mandate the flu shot.  If we the COVID shot is more like the flu shot (doesn't protect sufficiently against spread to make a significant impact) then there's no point to mandating the COVID shot.  If the COVID shot is more like the measles shot (protects significantly against spread if enough in the community have it) then there's that rationale.  Unfortunately, the evidence so far overwhelming leans more towards like a flu shot than the measles shots.


Grace T, it's always been just the Rona Flu A & B.  The Rona has a pal named Delta.  Delta has brother and a sister and their about to come out in the Winter of Darkness Part 2 Thriller.  Never been waves of anything except waves of pure bullshit from science magicians.  They lie and cheat for a living.  Look at how many are calling it quits and resigning.  I hear the VA election will be the first one in years to not allow cheating.  Let's see if my inside info rings true.  Lot's of misinformation in a time like this, in the informational war we ALL find ourselves in.  This is serious you guys.  Fence sitters need to get of their perches so we can finish all this once and for all.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean besides COVID's seasonality?


I would not be surprised that covid is seasonal, since it is descended from and similar to other viruses with well-known seasonal effects.  However, my point is that the data to date does not show it.  That might be because the seasonality is impressed on an exponential or sigmoidal growth curve, in which case the assumed seasonality effects will take another year or more to be expressed.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Mandates”? Who said anything about mandates? Oh yeah, you did. Is “No shoes, no shirt, no service!” a “mandate”? How about, “before enrolling your child in school make sure they have all their proper paperwork together, birth certificate, contact information, medical history including vaccines and booster shots”?


Under your rationale forced activity is acceptable without any substantiation.  Your comparisons are quite frankly, comical.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I would not be surprised that covid is seasonal, since it is descended from and similar to other viruses with well-known seasonal effects.  However, my point is that the data to date does not show it.  That might be because the seasonality is impressed on an exponential or sigmoidal growth curve, in which case the assumed seasonality effects will take another year or more to be expressed.


And its your opinion that health treatments should be mandated for seasonal afflictions.  What's your historical precedent for doing so?


----------



## MARsSPEED

espola said:


> It appears we are losing public safety employees who do not believe in public safety and medical care employees who do not believe in medical science.


If


crush said:


> Grace T, it's always been just the Rona Flu A & B.  The Rona has a pal named Delta.  Delta has brother and a sister and their about to come out in the Winter of Darkness Part 2 Thriller.  Never been waves of anything except waves of pure bullshit from science magicians.  They lie and cheat for a living.  Look at how many are calling it quits and resigning.  I hear the VA election will be the first one in years to not allow cheating.  Let's see if my inside info rings true.  Lot's of misinformation in a time like this, in the informational war we ALL find ourselves in.  This is serious you guys.  Fence sitters need to get of their perches so we can finish all this once and for all.


I wish I had better news to offer you from my part of the hood…



“Some things never change. Judges that won’t do what’s just and Democrats who steal elections. 
We reported previously that Virginia was not requiring the last 4 digits of social security numbers on absentee ballots. This is in direct violation of the law.


This comes from the same county that had over 300,000 ballots dropped for Joe Biden on election night while only 30,000 dropped for Trump – Three times!

So a voter group, not the Republican Party, sued to prevent these ballots from being used in the election – they are not legal. And the judge dismisses the case.

The Fairfax County Office of Elections argued that Virginia law stipulates that such a challenge can only be brought by an “aggrieved voter,” the candidate for office, the candidate’s campaign, or the chairman of the candidate’s political party.

Judge Michael Devine on Friday found that the Virginia Institute for Public Policy, as a nonprofit organization, lacked the standing to sue.”


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> And its your opinion that health treatments should be mandated for seasonal afflictions.  What's your historical precedent for doing so?


Putting thoughts in my head now?  It is not without precedent to pursue strong public health measures in face of an epidemic of unknown qualities.


----------



## MARsSPEED

_Johnson & Johnson Vaccine May Increase Risk of Brain Blood Clots, Study Suggests
Researchers from the Mayo Clinic published their findings in the scientific journal JAMA Internal Medicine. They insisted that the higher rate of this rare adverse effect should be considered in the context of the formula's effectiveness in preventing COVID-19.



In this way, they found that a person who received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine was 3.5 times more likely to develop blood clots in the brain than the average person before the pandemic.

Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) is a known side effect of the J&J vaccine, and the discovery of this risk was the reason why use of the vaccine was stopped in April in the United States._


----------



## espola

MARsSPEED said:


> If
> 
> 
> I wish I had better news to offer you from my part of the hood…
> 
> 
> 
> “Some things never change. Judges that won’t do what’s just and Democrats who steal elections.
> We reported previously that Virginia was not requiring the last 4 digits of social security numbers on absentee ballots. This is in direct violation of the law.
> 
> 
> This comes from the same county that had over 300,000 ballots dropped for Joe Biden on election night while only 30,000 dropped for Trump – Three times!
> 
> So a voter group, not the Republican Party, sued to prevent these ballots from being used in the election – they are not legal. And the judge dismisses the case.
> 
> The Fairfax County Office of Elections argued that Virginia law stipulates that such a challenge can only be brought by an “aggrieved voter,” the candidate for office, the candidate’s campaign, or the chairman of the candidate’s political party.
> 
> Judge Michael Devine on Friday found that the Virginia Institute for Public Policy, as a nonprofit organization, lacked the standing to sue.”


"The Fairfax County Office of Elections argued that Virginia law stipulates that such a challenge can only be brought by an “aggrieved voter,” the candidate for office, the candidate’s campaign, or the chairman of the candidate’s political party."

They ccouldn't find one of those?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Putting thoughts in my head now?  It is not without precedent to pursue strong public health measures in face of an epidemic of unknown qualities.


No, I don't want to misquote you.  So you're not in favor of vaccine mandates?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> No, I don't want to misquote you.  So you're not in favor of vaccine mandates?


My opinion is that there are too many gullible people in the world.  They have always been there, but the social media revolution has made them all painfully public.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Joel Zinberg is a senior fellow at Competitive Enterprise Institute.


And that means the reporting isn't any good? 

When you are spoon feed your news daily from the NY Times do you think to yourself, there is little daylight between what they say and a press release from the Dem party?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It looks like it's going to be around a 1/3 (that split is really really stubborn isn't it....hasn't moved since March 2020)....higher in some parts of the country and lower in others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New survey highlights parent concerns for vaccinating kids 5-11
> 
> 
> Some of their biggest concerns include the unknown, long-term effects, serious side effects, and infertility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ksdk.com


The concern being...

- No long term studies to see if there are some bad effects
- Parents wondering why force a kid to take a vax that in no way changes their risk profile vs covid.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Yes, but Lawrence Tabak is not.  Read his letter.
> 
> WIV was conducting experiments to see if they could engineer a bat coronavirus to attach to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> Two years later, we have a global pandemic caused by a bat coronavirus that attaches to a human ACE2 receptor.
> 
> So, maybe natural processes just happened to duplicate the exact research they were doing at WIV, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same location.
> 
> Or maybe some moron failed to properly maintain containment when they moved the lab in Wuhan.


Further note that after all this time they have not found where exactly the virus came from if natural. The bats in question are not native to the area around Wuhan where the virus started.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> My opinion is that there are too many gullible people in the world.  They have always been there, but the social media revolution has made them all painfully public.


What does that mean in regards to mandates, you're playing word games.  Do you support Covid vaccine mandates, or are you against mandates?  It's not a difficult question to answer.  All of your comments have been at least in the defense of mandates, so I hardly have put thoughts in your head.

Obviously, I'm anti-mandate.  My only caveat would be the military where I think they could make a good faith argument to enforce mandates, regardless of whether they are prudent or not.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> The one that ends like this?
> 
> "The analysis attached confirms that the bat coronaviruses studied under the EcoHealth Alliance grant could not have been the source of SARS-CoV-2 and the COVID- 19 pandemic."
> 
> 
> 
> https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/nih-eco-health-alliance-letter/512f5ee70ce9c67c/full.pdf


Yep.  That’s the one.

Parse the sentence.  It’s a very narrow denial.  All he says is that one particular bat coronavirus was not the source of Sars-CoV-2.  

It says nothing about the possibility that WIV ran the same experiment on several other coronaviruses, one of which escaped.

It’s CYA, and nothing more.  He’s just saying “WIV didn’t create covid under the terms of _*OUR*_ grant.”


----------



## Desert Hound

crush said:


> ECNL Vaccine Showcase Rules.  Q me this.  How does one know who is and who is not jabbed?
> 
> Any unvaccinated player, staff member or attendee who is exposed to an individual diagnosed with COVID-19 (less than 6 feet away for 15 minutes or more within a 24-hour period) will be restricted from play/the facility. Ø Any unvaccinated player, staff member or attendee who is exposed to an individual with suspected COVID-19 will be restricted from play/the facility unless the symptomatic individual can demonstrate a negative test. Ø Fully vaccinated, asymptomatic individuals who are exposed to an individual with suspected or diagnosed COVID-19 do not need to be restricted from play/ the facility. Ø Any symptomatic player will be restricted from play until their symptoms have fully resolved for 24 hours AND they can demonstrate a negative test


Simple silly. 

They hire a bunch of Vulcans who can do the Vulcan Mind Meld. Spock did it all the time. So upon entry you get checked out by a Vulcan. They read your mind. If you have been exposed you get a red shirt and then they send you on an away trip.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> My opinion is that there are too many gullible people in the world.  They have always been there, but the social media revolution has made them all painfully public.


That's what the Darwin Awards are for, but it doesn't justify mandating health treatments for the informed.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> That's what the Darwin Awards are for, but it doesn't justify mandating health treatments for the informed.


For a guy that claims to be non partisan, I can't but notice the only sauce espola wants on his wings are More Government.


----------



## Desert Hound

_FOLLOW THE SCIENCE! Exposed: The plague of fake medical trials putting lives in danger as experts reveal a FIFTH of studies published each year could contain invented or plagiarised results. “According to bombshell allegations from a group of highly respected experts, the medical world is rife with research fraud. *Their investigations suggest up to one in five of the estimated two million medical studies *published each year could contain invented or plagiarised results, details of patients who never existed and trials that didn’t actually take place. *The problem is ‘well known about’ in science circles, *says Richard Smith, former editor-in-chief of the British Medical Journal (BMJ) – yet there is a reluctance within the establishment to accept the scale of the problem.”_

I wonder if that applies to masks. 

Let us review shall we. 

Decades of research on masks showing little to no utility in stopping respiratory illness. 

Gov suddenly needs to look proactive and presto suddenly masks work.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> _FOLLOW THE SCIENCE! Exposed: The plague of fake medical trials putting lives in danger as experts reveal a FIFTH of studies published each year could contain invented or plagiarised results. “According to bombshell allegations from a group of highly respected experts, the medical world is rife with research fraud. *Their investigations suggest up to one in five of the estimated two million medical studies *published each year could contain invented or plagiarised results, details of patients who never existed and trials that didn’t actually take place. *The problem is ‘well known about’ in science circles, *says Richard Smith, former editor-in-chief of the British Medical Journal (BMJ) – yet there is a reluctance within the establishment to accept the scale of the problem.”_
> 
> I wonder if that applies to masks.
> 
> Let us review shall we.
> 
> Decades of research on masks showing little to no utility in stopping respiratory illness.
> 
> Gov suddenly needs to look proactive and presto suddenly masks work.


Decades, you say?









						An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
					

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...




					www.pnas.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Under your rationale forced activity is acceptable without any substantiation.  Your comparisons are quite frankly, comical.


Who said anything about, “forced activity”? Oh yeah you. Seems misrepresenting my opinion is the only thing you got. Good luck with that.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who said anything about, “forced activity”? Oh yeah you. Seems misrepresenting my opinion is the only thing you got. Good luck with that.


What about a mandate is not a "forced activity"? You were trying to justify mandates by comparing them to other required activities to attend school.  I don't want to misrepresent anyone's opinion, that's not my game.  Please feel free to clarify if you believe I've misrepresented your position.


----------



## Desert Hound

Here they actually looked at RCT studies over decades.

The found masks to be limited in their effectiveness.

Until politicized, this was the go to understanding about masks and respiratory viruses.

The only thing that has changed is political pressure to conform....of which you have again.

Your go to in every discussion is MORE GOV. For a non partisan that is interesting. You may want to evaluate the meaning of what you claim to be.


espola said:


> Decades, you say?


Yeah decades. 1946 to 2018.









						Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures
					

Pandemic Influenza—Personal Protective Measures




					wwwnc.cdc.gov


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Here's the thing with young kids.  The vaccination doesn't provide any material benefit to them unless they have other conditions. * So the question becomes should my child get injected for the sole reason of a potential benefit to others*?   I don't know that most parents will find that a very compelling reason that their young child should have the responsibility to protect adults.  I think that would require a major cultural mindset shift, the media is in hyperdrive with promoting this shift, but I just don't think the majority of the general population is buying it.
> 
> Like I said before I put the over/under at 40% for 5-11 vaccinations.  I'm beginning to think that's too high.


Usually, the FDA weights heavily the idea that  a vaccine must benefit  the intended population before it approves anything.  In this case, plenty of argument was presented that this particular vaccine clearly did not benefit the general population of 5-11 years olds.  The same was argued for 12 and above.  The FDA issued EUAs for both age groups for pfizer.  

I agree that many parents will sidestep vaccines for younger children unless at risk or if school districts enforce mandates.  Rollout for the  5-11 vaccines will be slow an deliberate.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> My opinion is that there are too many gullible people in the world.  They have always been there, but the social media revolution has made them all painfully public.


And they seem to believe no one will notice their clumsy attempts of subterfuge while they try bolstering their untenable positions.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Usually, the FDA weights heavily the idea that  a vaccine must benefit  the intended population before it approves anything.  In this case, plenty of argument was presented that this particular vaccine clearly did not benefit the general population of 5-11 years olds.  The same was argued for 12 and above.  The FDA issued EUAs for both age groups for pfizer.
> 
> I agree that many parents will sidestep vaccines for younger children unless at risk or if school districts enforce mandates.  Rollout for the  5-11 vaccines will be slow an deliberate.


Drugs also go through many years of testing before they hit the market. 

The like to study it, see which groups may be at risk, understand the interaction with the drug at hand with other drugs, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> And they seem to believe no one will notice their clumsy attempts of subterfuge while they try bolstering their untenable positions.


I think he is talking about you two without realizing it. 

Untenable, guillible, etc describe you two rather well. 

You guys part of the flat earth society? I hear they have membership all around the world.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> What about a mandate is not a "forced activity"? You were trying to justify mandates by comparing them to other required activities to attend school.  I don't want to misrepresent anyone's opinion, that's not my game.  Please feel free to clarify if you believe I've misrepresented your position.


Oh I see your problem, comprehension. Where did I say I support mandates? Actually I said the opposite but that wouldn’t help you do whatever it is you are trying to do. Misrepresentation isn’t a valid debate tactic amongst the aware.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Oh I see your problem, comprehension. Where did I say I support mandates? Actually I said the opposite but that wouldn’t help you do whatever it is you are trying to do. Misrepresentation isn’t a valid debate tactic amongst the aware.


And some of that has been aimed in my direction.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Oh I see your problem, comprehension. Where did I say I support mandates? Actually I said the opposite but that wouldn’t help you do whatever it is you are trying to do. Misrepresentation isn’t a valid debate tactic amongst the aware.


My bad, I assumed you were pro-mandate based on your rationalizations regarding mandates.  I honestly have a hard time keeping up with you and Espola (although I still don't know Espola's opinion on mandate).  I guess I shouldn't assume based on someone's rhetoric implying something in the alternative. I guess I missed your prior anti-mandate statements.

Not trying to do anything here.  Glad to hear you are anti-mandate.  Welcome to the pro-vax, anti-mandate club.


----------



## Grace T.

A critique of the CDC immunity study and why it conflicts with the Israeli









						A Review and Autopsy of Two COVID Immunity Studies ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

I have never before seen such a large discrepancy between immunity studies that are supposed to answer the same question.




					brownstone.org


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> And some of that has been aimed in my direction.


Whiny little bitch.


----------



## MicPaPa

BREAKING NEWS:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Milley announced effective immediately the US Military identifies as the winner of the Afghan War. Adding, from now on it's pronouns are "winner/victor/conqueror." [FULL STOP]


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A critique of the CDC immunity study and why it conflicts with the Israeli
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Review and Autopsy of Two COVID Immunity Studies ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> I have never before seen such a large discrepancy between immunity studies that are supposed to answer the same question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


Based on his wiki the founder of Brownstone is quite an interesting character.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Tucker

These articles and studies go way over my head most of the time.  We can argue about the degree of relative immunity that prior infection provides but it seems clear that it provides a level of immunity at least in the neighborhood of vaccinated immunity.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> My bad, I assumed you were pro-mandate based on your rationalizations regarding mandates.  I honestly have a hard time keeping up with you and Espola (although I still don't know Espola's opinion on mandate).  I guess I shouldn't assume based on someone's rhetoric implying something in the alternative. I guess I missed your prior anti-mandate statements.
> 
> Not trying to do anything here.  Glad to hear you are anti-mandate.  Welcome to the pro-vax, anti-mandate club.


Once you realize that leftist have no principled positions, rather emotional bandwagons for political agendas, it'll all make sense.

One of the more banal examples is the constant non-answers to questions by asking questions, i.e., @espola


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Once you realize that leftist have no principled positions, rather emotional bandwagons for political agendas, it'll all make sense.
> 
> One of the more banal examples is the constant non-answers to questions by asking questions, i.e., @espola


Bernie seems to have principles that he unflinchingly adheres to.  Of course, I'd adhere to those principles too if I could make that kind of coin just working for the government without any apparent job skills.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Once you realize that leftist have no principled positions, rather emotional bandwagons for political agendas, it'll all make sense.
> 
> One of the more banal examples is the constant non-answers to questions by asking questions, i.e., @espola


Nope your were just fooled like me.  Espola and Husker were simply playing "devil's advocate" and they did an incredibly compelling job.  Oscar worthy stuff when you consider the lengths they went with the insults.  Well played.


----------



## Dominic

watfly said:


> Based on his wiki the founder of Brownstone is quite an interesting character.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Tucker
> 
> These articles and studies go way over my head most of the time.  We can argue about the degree of relative immunity that prior infection provides but it seems clear that it provides a level of immunity at least in the neighborhood of vaccinated immunity.


Great article!

*Conclusions*

Concerning the Covid recovered, there are two key public health issues. 1. Would the Covid recovered benefit from also being vaccinated? 2. Should there be vaccine passports and mandates that require them to be vaccinated in order to work and participate in society? 


The CDC study did not address the first question, while the Israeli study showed a small but not statistically significant benefit in reducing symptomatic Covid disease. Future studies will hopefully shed more light on this issue. 


Based on the solid evidence from the Israeli study, the Covid recovered have stronger and longer-lasting immunity against Covid disease than the vaccinated. Hence, there is no reason to prevent them from activities that are permitted to the vaccinated. In fact, it is discriminatory. 


Many of the Covid recovered were exposed to the virus as essential workers during the height of the pandemic before vaccines were available. They kept the rest of society afloat, processing food, delivering goods, unloading ships, picking up garbage, policing the streets, maintaining the electricity network, putting out fires, and caring for the old and sick, to name a few. 


They are now being fired and excluded despite having stronger immunity than the vaccinated work-from-home administrators that are firing them.


----------



## MicPaPa

Dominic said:


> They are now being fired and excluded despite having stronger immunity than the vaccinated work-from-home administrators that are firing them.


Pathetic! This is the ball game - and their unions have hung them out to dry, they're going to spark a real insurrection.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Nope your were just fooled like me.  Espola and Husker were simply playing "devil's advocate" and they did an incredibly compelling job.  Oscar worthy stuff when you consider the lengths they went with the insults.  Well played.


“insults”? Where? Making things up to accuse others of seems to be some kind of pattern in here.


----------



## Brav520

VA is already being called for Youngkin


----------



## Desert Hound

Worth a read as we think about government response to covid.









						James Maughan: Sweden's Covid Success Ignored by Media
					

Sweden, in the final analysis, apparently was correct.




					www.newsmax.com


----------



## crush

Dominic said:


> Great article!
> 
> *Conclusions*
> 
> Concerning the Covid recovered, there are two key public health issues. 1. Would the Covid recovered benefit from also being vaccinated? 2. Should there be vaccine passports and mandates that require them to be vaccinated in order to work and participate in society?
> 
> 
> The CDC study did not address the first question, while the Israeli study showed a small but not statistically significant benefit in reducing symptomatic Covid disease. Future studies will hopefully shed more light on this issue.
> 
> 
> Based on the solid evidence from the Israeli study, the Covid recovered have stronger and longer-lasting immunity against Covid disease than the vaccinated. Hence, there is no reason to prevent them from activities that are permitted to the vaccinated. In fact, it is discriminatory.
> 
> 
> Many of the Covid recovered were exposed to the virus as essential workers during the height of the pandemic before vaccines were available. They kept the rest of society afloat, processing food, delivering goods, unloading ships, picking up garbage, policing the streets, maintaining the electricity network, putting out fires, and caring for the old and sick, to name a few.
> 
> 
> They are now being fired and excluded despite having stronger immunity than the vaccinated work-from-home administrators that are firing them.


Joe Blow from MSNBC ((*m*ore* s*hit *n*oise *b*ull *c*rap)) said that all first responders WHO refuse the Jab should be fired!!  That guy is just like Husker and wants death.   VA and NJ is making some noise too.  Now that we have no more cheating in elections, America will be owned by the people, not some fat ass old farts who has been living off their families bloodline forever.  The days of Cain are over!!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü




----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 12016


Woulda, coulda or shoulda.  Welcome to the new life Husker, where we dont blame others for our lot in life.  Get off your ass and live is the new way.  Stop projecting your bullshit anymore and start living life you foolish one because you have been played more then anyone on here.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> VA is already being called for Youngkin


Not just Youngkin....the entire state swung heavily R....and not just Virginia but Republican wins in NJ, NY, Pennsylvania and texas....the exit polls show the main thing driving it was school closures.  I also think the Ds are getting generally blamed for the poor state of the economy, that COVID hasn't gone away, and that Biden promised to unite us but we seem to be more divided than ever. I don't think Trump could have done a whole lot better....we can argue whether he would have done marginally better such as on the transportation, employment and Afghanistan issues, but they were always going to be issues that were baked in. Biden only has a few months left to turn this around before things get baked in for the midterms.

IIHC, San Francisco just mandated the vaccines for the youngers.  If we do get even a moderate winter wave, the fight is going to be interested.  LAUSD vaccine mandates for athletes also going into effect.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 12016


...I also heard a lot of people last night at the ballot boxes saying you leftists are full of shit...I agree.


----------



## Grace T.

Tim Pool got a bad case of the Vid.  IIRC he is vaccinated (maybe J&J)...also he and his crew tested negative at first


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Not just Youngkin....the entire state swung heavily R....and not just Virginia but Republican wins in NJ, NY, Pennsylvania and texas....the exit polls show the main thing driving it was school closures.  I also think the Ds are getting generally blamed for the poor state of the economy, that COVID hasn't gone away, and that Biden promised to unite us but we seem to be more divided than ever. I don't think Trump could have done a whole lot better....we can argue whether he would have done marginally better such as on the transportation, employment and Afghanistan issues, but they were always going to be issues that were baked in. Biden only has a few months left to turn this around before things get baked in for the midterms.
> 
> IIHC, San Francisco just mandated the vaccines for the youngers.  If we do get even a moderate winter wave, the fight is going to be interested.  LAUSD vaccine mandates for athletes also going into effect.


I hope Time makes its Person of the Year "the American Parent".  Between things like Let Them Play and the Virginia outcome, the power of pissed off parents is not to be underestimated.  This is what happens when you F with kids.

The left will still not catch on though.  On CNN and MSNBC they are blaming the left's losses on the fact that the Dem's haven't been able to pass an infrastructure and freebies spending bill.


----------



## crush

Man, these people are going down with the ship.  It's only pride now that is holding them back from true freedom.  Holding unto cheating & lying because you were bought, bribed and blackmailed is not going to end well for anyone.  Listen folks, were all tempted to do wrong and we all have done some wrong in our lifetime.  We also pick the wrong side at times.  We The People of The Untied States of America have only one side, not two sides.  No escaping the truth anymore.  The good and honest soul will confess his or her wrong doing and work on improving from the inside first and then work on how you look outside.  I predict many and I many people will retire ((plea deal cut in 2017 to play along)) or start jumping ship right about now.  FB is no more.  META is death so think about that man.  I love you all, even my worst enemies.  I love you enemy and I wish you no harm


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 12016


But you are vaxxed, why should you care?  Why are you so concerned with the dirty unvaxxed?  Just let them be already.  Go and get a booster and call it a day.  You are just making things up.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I hope Time makes its Person of the Year "the American Parent".  Between things like Let Them Play and the Virginia outcome, the power of pissed off parents is not to be underestimated.  This is what happens when you F with kids.
> 
> The left will still not catch on though.  On CNN and MSNBC they are blaming the left's losses on the fact that the Dem's haven't been able to pass an infrastructure and freebies spending bill.


The wine mom giveth, the wine mom taketh away


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> But you are vaxxed, why should you care?  Why are you so concerned with the dirty unvaxxed?  Just let them be already.  Go and get a booster and call it a day.  You are just making things up.


You can't sense Husker's overwhelming empathy for his fellow man human in his posts?  Well shame on you.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> You can't sense Husker's overwhelming empathy for his fellow man human in his posts?  Well shame on you.


I am Mr. Empath Wat Fly and what you said about the hard hearted Husker is true.  I read people for a living.  He lies and tricks and does not care for anyone except himself.  He comes first and then he will decide who gets fired or who must take boosters forever.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I hope Time makes its Person of the Year "the American Parent".  Between things like Let Them Play and the Virginia outcome, the power of pissed off parents is not to be underestimated.  This is what happens when you F with kids.
> 
> The left will still not catch on though.  On CNN and MSNBC they are blaming the left's losses on the fact that the Dem's haven't been able to pass an infrastructure and freebies spending bill.


The left is having trouble understanding that some Biden voters don’t actually want a freebies bill.  

Progressives didn’t get their freebies bill.  But, by putting their power right in front of the cameras, they did an excellent job of scaring moderates into voting Republican.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The left is having trouble understanding that some Biden voters don’t actually want a freebies bill.
> 
> Progressives didn’t get their freebies bill.  But, by putting their power right in front of the cameras, they did an excellent job of scaring moderates into voting Republican.


Similarly if the Rs had nominated someone less polarizing than Trump in 2020 those suburban moderates wouldn't have been scared away. We saw that in the 2020 downballot gains from Rs.  Same here in California (Newsom would still more than likely have won but having Elder be the alternative just made it easy).  Big dilemma for them in 2024 will be how to keep Trump from running....he is getting up there in years and 3 years is a long time so maybe his health doesn't hold up is the best I can think of right now.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 12016


Then those who wouldn’t, should get vaccinated. If they don’t, that’s in them.  

next thing you’ll say, “what about the ICU’s”…we’ll they are likely going to be overwhelmed in areas due to short staffing rather than Covid overflow.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> This is what happens when you F with kids.


As someone pointed out elsewhere, when they locked down the schools, suddenly parents watched zoom and could see what was being peddled in schools. Mama bears got angry.



watfly said:


> The left will still not catch on though.


One of the "analysts" thinks part of the solution is to talk more about Jan 6, and the failure to do so is hurting the Dems.


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455940682862845956


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455940682862845956


I think part of the reason they mandated it is because they figure there really are not too many kids in SF public schools. 

With the high cost of living, stupid laws, etc, they have been scaring families away from SF for decades. 

This is just part of their master plan to drive most of the rest out.

It is just bad policy. This rush to mandate vaxxes on an age group who have zero risk. Nonsensical.


----------



## Grace T.

The Democratic Unraveling Began With Schools
					

Republican victories in Virginia show how COVID-19 has fundamentally changed American politics.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The left is having trouble understanding that some Biden voters don’t actually want a freebies bill.
> 
> Progressives didn’t get their freebies bill.  But, by putting their power right in front of the cameras, they did an excellent job of scaring moderates into voting Republican.


No no no no, nice try dad.  The truth is, this was the first time since a LONG TIME that no cheating was allowed.  The military was in charge, just like last year.  You see dad, they ((Space Force)) allowed the cheating and stealing last year.  Why you ask?  Well, first they wanted to catch all the cheaters in the act.  Second, they wanted to catch all of them so it doesn't ever happen again.  To sum it all up for you; the riots were allowed last year for obvious reasons, to catch them.  The cheating and stealing of election was also allowed.  They used the lefts scam with a plan to unleash the Seals. Not the Navy Seals btw.  No, un*seal* the over 300,000 indictments.  Each indictment can have 99 people in it.  t hired 50,000 deputy marshals back in 2017. We're all watching the biggest military task force ever put to man.  The humans are doing it too.  90% of us want honesty and fairness first, before party or soccer club.  We all want a fair shake to do our very best on the planet. This game was rigged before we were all born.  We all can see how the Science Magicians lied to us and the rich families in control used Tel A Vision to brainwash all of us.  God is here folks and we will all see the greatest show ever.  You all get choose.  God is a God of second chances and thirds as well so dont delay ((I hope so at least)).  Happy Whacky Wednesday and may God Bless each and every one of you.  I mean that.  Were all humans and we all need honesty and truth.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The left is having trouble understanding that some Biden voters don’t actually want a freebies bill.
> 
> Progressives didn’t get their freebies bill.  But, by putting their power right in front of the cameras, they did an excellent job of scaring moderates into voting Republican.


According to just about every commentator on CNN the bill is loaded with goodies that everyone wants.  Van Jones thinks Youngkin primarily won because he blew racist dog whistles, in particular, criticizing the content of one of Toni Morrison's books (for the record I'm against banning books).

The left with the help of the MSM touts all the free shit you're going to get from the bills.  They completely ignore the fact that its the people that work for a living that are going to pay for all the free shit.  The media just spreads Biden's big lie that its already paid for.

This is probably a minority opinion, but I don't think the results yesterday are necessarily a referendum on Biden, so Republicans shouldn't feel too smug about the wins.  I believe it was actually the Democrat candidates that were the problem.  If McAullife didn't say that parents shouldn't have a say in what schools teach he likely wins (CNN kept saying his comments were taken out of context but he doubled down on those comments on Meet the Press).  I also think voters didn't appreciate his race baiting tactics either.  Murphy surprisingly almost lost (yes, I'm conceding this election) in large part to his handling of the pandemic, in particular the nursing home debacle.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I think part of the reason they mandated it is because they figure there really are not too many kids in SF public schools.
> 
> With the high cost of living, stupid laws, etc, they have been scaring families away from SF for decades.
> 
> This is just part of their master plan to drive most of the rest out.
> 
> It is just bad policy. This rush to mandate vaxxes on an age group who have zero risk. Nonsensical.


Dogs can catch COVID now.  They don't seem to get very sick and don't transmit it efficiently at all (the virus is uniquely tailored to human beings....I wonder why???)









						TGen study indicates humans spread COVID-19 to pets, not the other way around
					

TGen said genome sequencing confirmed that a Phoenix man and his pets – a dog and a cat – had identical strains of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19.




					www.azfamily.com
				




There are more dogs than children in San Francisco









						Are There Really More Dogs Than Children in S.F.? | KQED
					

PLUS: How many of those dogs could fit on a Muni train ... and other pressing canine questions.




					www.kqed.org
				




Maybe if San Francisco had come after the dogs, there would have been a problem.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455940682862845956


Meanwhile they still allow people to crap on their streets.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Van Jones thinks Youngkin primarily won because he blew racist dog whistles, in particular, criticizing the content of one of Toni Morrison's books (for the record I'm against banning books).


To the idiots on most news shows racism is always the reason.

Apparently voters in VA are racist.

So racist in fact the also voted for a black woman to be Lt Gov and a hispanic to be AG.

It reminds of the same stuff during the Obama years...ie opposition to him was due to race. I always asked which of his policies would suddenly be supported by the right if O was white? They never could square that circle.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Dogs can catch COVID now.  They don't seem to get very sick and don't transmit it efficiently at all (the virus is uniquely tailored to human beings....I wonder why???)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TGen study indicates humans spread COVID-19 to pets, not the other way around
> 
> 
> TGen said genome sequencing confirmed that a Phoenix man and his pets – a dog and a cat – had identical strains of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.azfamily.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are more dogs than children in San Francisco
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are There Really More Dogs Than Children in S.F.? | KQED
> 
> 
> PLUS: How many of those dogs could fit on a Muni train ... and other pressing canine questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kqed.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if San Francisco had come after the dogs, there would have been a problem.


Husker will want all dogs vaxxed!!


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> This is probably a minority opinion, but I don't think the results yesterday are necessarily a referendum on Biden, so Republicans shouldn't feel too smug about the wins.  I believe it was actually the Democrat candidates that were the problem.  If McAullife didn't say that parents shouldn't have a say in what schools teach he likely wins (CNN kept saying his comments were taken out of context but he doubled down on those comments on Meet the Press).  I also think voters didn't appreciate his race baiting tactics either.  Murphy surprisingly almost lost (yes, I'm conceding this election) in large part to his handling of the pandemic, in particular the nursing home debacle.


Disagree here.  The exit surveys show that the economy was a close second to schools.   Virginia has been hit especially hard by the labor, supply shortages and inflation.  We can debate the amount of control Biden had over these things (my position is marginal...could have made it better but a lot of it was baked in).  While it wasn't a referendum on Biden, Biden and his popularity (or lack there of) certainly did act as an anchor on McAullife.  McAullife was brought down by a combination of a bad campaign with bad positions that angered parents, parents anger at the public schools, the fact that it's (still) not over (for which Biden rightly or wrong is getting the blame), and the economy (for which Biden rightly or wrongly is getting the blame)


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Meanwhile they still allow people to crap on their streets.


They also have decriminalized shoplifting and other similar crimes and so retailers are saying enough and moving out due to losses.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Desert Hound said:


> Further note that after all this time they have not found where exactly the virus came from if natural. The bats in question are not native to the area around Wuhan where the virus started.


Re the bats: In the natural derivation scenario, the bats would have infected pangolins as an intermediate host at a site other than Wuhan (southern Asia, Africa, etc), leading to a co-infection cycle of bat and pangolin C-viruses within the same animals.  Scales from these pangolins, or possibly live animals, were then transported to markets in Wuhan where CoV-2 made the jump. Genome sequence comparisons support the idea there are segments of both pangolin and bat C-virus present in CoV-2, suggesting recombination between the two viral genomes occurred.  Such recombination events are hardwired into the the C-virus replicative cycle and are part of the reason this group of viruses can evolve so quickly. Whether these recombination events occurred naturally at a site other than Wuhan or as part of a laboratory study conducted in Wuhan is an unresolved question. But whether the bats are native to Wuhan does not weigh in on it directly.  A thing to keep in mind is that, no matter the sequence of events in this particular case, CoV-2 could quite readily have arisen through a relatively well understood natural process. As humans come into new contact with co-evolved natural host-virus relationships around the globe, some virologists are predicting that we will be seeing more of these zoonotic outbreaks in the immediate future.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> So racist in fact the also voted for a black woman to be Lt Gov and a hispanic to be AG.


The token Republican on the CNN election coverage attempted to make that point, but was soundly ridiculed with token examples of dog whistling.  The left is all about form over substance.

Lt. Gov Winsome Sears is an incredible American success story.  A former Marine she was born in Jamaica and came here with her father who allegedly came with only a $1.75 in his pocket.  She barely got a mention on MSM last night, and nothing about her incredible story.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Lt. Gov Winsome Sears is an incredible American success story. A former Marine she was born in Jamaica and came here with her father who allegedly came with only a $1.75 in his pocket. She barely got a mention on MSM last night, and nothing about her incredible story.


If there were a D by her name they would be tearfully explaining to everyone what an amazing story that is.

But since the press by and large are all very liberal, they don't like that kind of American success story.

And of course they are amazed when people don't want their form of liberalism, and they chalk up resistance to it to be racist in nature. I mean what other reason could a person have for not voting for McCaulife?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Disagree here.  The exit surveys show that the economy was a close second to schools.   Virginia has been hit especially hard by the labor, supply shortages and inflation.  We can debate the amount of control Biden had over these things (my position is marginal...could have made it better but a lot of it was baked in).  While it wasn't a referendum on Biden, Biden and his popularity (or lack there of) certainly did act as an anchor on McAullife.  McAullife was brought down by a combination of a bad campaign with bad positions that angered parents, parents anger at the public schools, the fact that it's (still) not over (for which Biden rightly or wrong is getting the blame), and the economy (for which Biden rightly or wrongly is getting the blame)


IMO the economy made it close.  Education determined the winner.  I think were basically saying the same thing.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> If there were a D by her name they would be tearfully explaining to everyone what an amazing story that is.
> 
> But since the press by and large are all very liberal, they don't like that kind of American success story.
> 
> And of course they are amazed when people don't want their form of liberalism, and they chalk up resistance to it to be racist in nature. I mean what other reason could a person have for not voting for McCaulife?











						Opinion: Biden says if you're black and don't vote for him, you're not black. He's right
					

Joe Biden was right when he said if black voters don't vote him, they're not black.  He just shouldn't have said it.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## MARsSPEED

Absolutely heart breaking. Yet we want to mandate this vaccine for even younger children. I really wonder what the death count is for death by vaccine as compared to death by covid in children…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455743667927502853


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Re the bats: In the natural derivation scenario, the bats would have infected pangolins as an intermediate host at a site other than Wuhan (southern Asia, Africa, etc), leading to a co-infection cycle of bat and pangolin C-viruses within the same animals.  Scales from these pangolins, or possibly live animals, were then transported to markets in Wuhan where CoV-2 made the jump. Genome sequence comparisons support the idea there are segments of both pangolin and bat C-virus present in CoV-2, suggesting recombination between the two viral genomes occurred.  Such recombination events are hardwired into the the C-virus replicative cycle and are part of the reason this group of viruses can evolve so quickly. Whether these recombination events occurred naturally at a site other than Wuhan or as part of a laboratory study conducted in Wuhan is an unresolved question. But whether the bats are native to Wuhan does not weigh in on it directly.  A thing to keep in mind is that, no matter the sequence of events in this particular case, CoV-2 could quite readily have arisen through a relatively well understood natural process. As humans come into new contact with co-evolved natural host-virus relationships around the globe, some virologists are predicting that we will be seeing more of these zoonotic outbreaks in the immediate future.


other are some sciency technical reasons why we should be suspicious about this being natural.  I'm not really competent to discuss but I'll refer you to the prior writings posted here for that.  But there are two non-sciency things that cut against this: 1. the Chinese have been looking high and wide for the bats and pangolins.  They have yet to find it.  2. The chinese have been stone walling the investigation: if it wasn't engineered or a naturally occurring lab leak, what's the motivation to hide it? It doesn't make any sense, particularly when it you compare it to the intelligence which has been reported surrounding the wuhan lab.  From a propaganda point of view, if it was natural, it makes the most sense to completely cooperate with the investigation to clear the wuhan lab and then shift the blame to the US (like they attempted to do).  But that's not what the Chinese did.

humans having been coming into contact with new natural host viruses for the last at least 70 years now.  frequent jet travel and interconnected logistics have been in place since the 60s (yes, you can argue China and the second world were separated from that chain but China has been interconnected since the 90s and is a big enough network in and of itself).  If anything, it's a missive that we should stop doing stupid stuff like the wet markets but all indications are that's not what happened here.


----------



## Desert Hound

This is the plan as I understand it coming from many politicians and "experts". 

Did I miss anything?


----------



## Grace T.

It's a pandemic of the unvaccinated and unmasked!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455942616898433028


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> This is the plan as I understand it coming from many politicians and "experts".
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> View attachment 12018


Yep, your missing kids.  According to the experts vaccinating 5-11 year olds is the turning point for the pandemic.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> It's a pandemic of the unvaccinated and unmasked!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455942616898433028


I don't like to start rumors but I saw him with Jen Psaki last week.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Yep, your missing kids.  According to the experts vaccinating 5-11 year olds is the turning point for the pandemic.


You are right I keep forgetting about them. They are super spreaders. 

Do they also hang out in bars?


----------



## Grace T.

LA sports mandate kicking in.....









						With too few vaccinated players, Crenshaw won't participate in City Section playoffs
					

The Cougars do not have enough players vaccinated against COVID-19 to participate in the playoffs, according to coach




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> LA sports mandate kicking in.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With too few vaccinated players, Crenshaw won't participate in City Section playoffs
> 
> 
> The Cougars do not have enough players vaccinated against COVID-19 to participate in the playoffs, according to coach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Apparently they had the right amount to participate in the regular season. Unfortunately they always had to have ambulances at every game to carry away the infected and dying after every game.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

I'm agnostic about the origin.  Like I said much earlier, i can see it either way and nothing you post below sorts it out in the way you suggest it does in the end.



Grace T. said:


> 1. the Chinese have been looking high and wide for the bats and pangolins.  They have yet to find it.


The "it" in this case is not the hosts.  It's the host with the correct C-virus genome sequence so the phylogeny can be reconstructed.  Working phylogenies forward is easy; working them backwards is hard.  Care to take a guess as to C-virus genetic diversity in the wild?



Grace T. said:


> 2. The chinese have been stone walling the investigation: if it wasn't engineered or a naturally occurring lab leak, what's the motivation to hide it? It doesn't make any sense, particularly when it you compare it to the intelligence which has been reported surrounding the wuhan lab.  From a propaganda point of view, if it was natural, it makes the most sense to completely cooperate with the investigation to clear the wuhan lab and then shift the blame to the US (like they attempted to do).  But that's not what the Chinese did.


Could easily have been a lab leak.  After all that's what they do at the Wuhan institute.  Explore recombination in zoonotic viruses.  Governments are often not forthcoming about all kinds of things.  Imagine what we might say if the Chinese wanted to come over and get a "free to roam the halls" pass at Ft. Detrick. A thorough inspection of the viral stocks at Wuhan might shed some light, although the relevant material could have been bleached some time ago.  



Grace T. said:


> humans having been coming into contact with new natural host viruses for the last at least 70 years now.  it's a missive that we should stop doing stupid stuff


Yep.  Ebola, SARS, MERS, Covid-19.  All in the blink of an eye really.  



Grace T. said:


> All indications are that's not what happened here.


None of what you write here is definitive one way or another, no matter how you dress it up for it's big debating wrap up.   Do you think SARS or MERS were also lab leaks?  This one may or may not have recombined in the wild.  Natural processes can readily promote such outbreaks is the point.  More may be forthcoming.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> It's a pandemic of the unvaccinated and unmasked!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455942616898433028


Do you think the mayor is going to die like these idiots did recently?  Or is it a pandemic of the unvaccinated and unmasked?

Ohio Snowflake accepts her HCA : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Proud heterosexual, enthusiastic racist, & passionate Trump-lover accepts HCA. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Virginia Snowflake accepts his HCA : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Red was a 23-year-old volunteer fireman in KY. He mostly posted memes about beer and fixing cars, but COVID took him in 6 days and now his two kids don't have a father. Get vaccinated. [repost, rule 5 violation fixed] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
He didn’t trust his doctor, the vaccine and he didn’t fear death. His daughter is a nurse practitioner but he still refused to listen to facts. She got to announce his passing. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Re the bats: In the natural derivation scenario, the bats would have infected pangolins as an intermediate host at a site other than Wuhan (southern Asia, Africa, etc), leading to a co-infection cycle of bat and pangolin C-viruses within the same animals.  Scales from these pangolins, or possibly live animals, were then transported to markets in Wuhan where CoV-2 made the jump. Genome sequence comparisons support the idea there are segments of both pangolin and bat C-virus present in CoV-2, suggesting recombination between the two viral genomes occurred.  Such recombination events are hardwired into the the C-virus replicative cycle and are part of the reason this group of viruses can evolve so quickly. Whether these recombination events occurred naturally at a site other than Wuhan or as part of a laboratory study conducted in Wuhan is an unresolved question. But whether the bats are native to Wuhan does not weigh in on it directly.  A thing to keep in mind is that, no matter the sequence of events in this particular case, CoV-2 could quite readily have arisen through a relatively well understood natural process. As humans come into new contact with co-evolved natural host-virus relationships around the globe, some virologists are predicting that we will be seeing more of these zoonotic outbreaks in the immediate future.


I personally think pangolins are being used as a scapegoat.  I mean they're a convenient and credible choice.  They look like giant armored rats.  If the media blamed it on panda cubs, c'mon now, how many people are going to believe that?  Now one is going to argue with bats and pangolins.  Just saying.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'm agnostic about the origin.  Like I said much earlier, i can see it either way and nothing you post below sorts it out in the way you suggest it does in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> The "it" in this case is not the hosts.  It's the host with the correct C-virus genome sequence so the phylogeny can be reconstructed.  Working phylogenies forward is easy; working them backwards is hard.  Care to take a guess as to C-virus genetic diversity in the wild?
> 
> 
> 
> Could easily have been a lab leak.  After all that's what they do at the Wuhan institute.  Explore recombination in zoonotic viruses.  Governments are often not forthcoming about all kinds of things.  Imagine what we might say if the Chinese wanted to come over and get a "free to roam the halls" pass at Ft. Detrick. A thorough inspection of the viral stocks at Wuhan might shed some light, although the relevant material could have been bleached some time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  Ebola, SARS, MERS, Covid-19.  All in the blink of an eye really.
> 
> 
> 
> None of what you write here is definitive one way or another, no matter how you dress it up for it's big debating wrap up.   Do you think SARS or MERS were also lab leaks?  This one may or may not have recombined in the wild.  Natural processes can readily promote such outbreaks is the point.  More may be forthcoming.


1. a "Contagion" type situation might have been possible (bat to pig creates new virus, pig gets eaten by lady, virus mutates in the lady, doesn't spread to other pigs) it's just not very likely.  More likely is there would have been a reservoir (however small) of the virus (or the immediate precursor virus).  They've turned the world up and down looking for this reservoir.  It's just not there.  Not to mention the fact that it's jumped to so many species now.  Not saying it's not possible...just not very damn likely at this point, given that the Chinese government is so desperate to deflect if there were any possibility it would have by now.  
2. It's not just the CPC opening up the Wuhan lab for Americans, they stonewalled the international inspectors too. They've also silenced the witnesses and not made them available to the press.  Again, the entire behavior is extreme suspicious....smoke, fire.
3. You'll recall Ebola, Sars, and Mers did not spread to a global pandemic.  Burned out eventually.  COVID has crossed into dogs but (at least so far) they aren't all dropping dead from it either.
4. I'm not dismissing the possibility of a natural fluke.  It's just very very very unlikely at this point.  The probabilities of natural occurrence v. lab leak v. engineered is just orders of magnitude off right now.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I personally think pangolins are being used as a scapegoat.  I mean they're a convenient and credible choice.  They look like giant armored rats.  If the media blamed it on panda cubs, c'mon now, how many people are going to believe that?  Now one is going to argue with bats and pangolins.  Just saying.


Awww come on.  google up some baby pangolin pictures.  They're cute, adorable even.  Bats, that an easy one.  Ticks, mosquitoes, rats, mice other vermin.  Those would be a much easier sell than pangolins.  My personal choice for an intermediate host would be badgers.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Awww come on.  google up some baby pangolin pictures.  They're cute, adorable even.  Bats, that an easy one.  Ticks, mosquitoes, rats, mice other vermin.  Those would be a much easier sell than pangolins.  My personal choice for an intermediate host would be badgers.


There is something seriously wrong with you.


----------



## crush

Governor Ron DeSantis ...

"A recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours, a recovery is when Dr. Fauci loses his.”


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> is just orders of magnitude off right now.


That's very quantitative.  100-fold, 1000-fold, what? Can I see the math please? It doesn't really matter.  I just find it interesting how you always end up assigning a definitive statement to things that are inheritantly indeterminate or not fundamentally knowable or calculatable with existing information.  We all do this to operate in an uncertain world.  Going with your gut, here's my best guess, that's all well and good.  But not, well it might be this but then again this fuzzy thing plus this fuzzy thing and this other fuzzy thing assessed in the context of other fuzzy things add up to orders of magnitude.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> There is something seriously wrong with you.
> 
> View attachment 12019


It's like those first baby pics at the hospital right after they cut the cord.  Ohh... But put a diaper on it, a little knit cap and a bottle under the grow lights and it's FB ready. Likes from friends and family around the globe.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That's very quantitative.  100-fold, 1000-fold, what? Can I see the math please? It doesn't really matter.  I just find it interesting how you always end up assigning a definitive statement to things that are inheritantly indeterminate or not fundamentally knowable or calculatable with existing information.  We all do this to operate in an uncertain world.  Going with your gut, here's my best guess, that's all well and good.  But not, well it might be this but then again this fuzzy thing plus this fuzzy thing and this other fuzzy thing assessed in the context of other fuzzy things add up to orders of magnitude.


i couldn't tell you the exact orders of magnitude.  Do the exact numbers really even matter this point?  I can only tell you that given the evidence in front of us at the current time, one scenario is possible but would require a lot of variable to line up to make happen and is therefore highly unlikely at this point, and the other is not only possible but has a lot of evidence stacked up at this point.  You have a little of one thing, a lot of the other.

It probably comes, BTW, from our respective training.  You science types are taught to break it down into numbers...the numbers are all that matters.  We lawyer types are taught to assess possible/not possible and which is likelier in our evaluation of evidence.  The first year of law school is taught mostly to think critically and to identify problems.  The second (where most people take evidence) is how to assess those problems (the third is mostly a waste by way of training but hey the law school has to make money). It's why you probably are advised against hiring a lawyer for a business role....they'll tell you all the problems with an idea instead of how to go forward.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> But you are vaxxed, why should you care?  Why are you so concerned with the dirty unvaxxed?  Just let them be already.  Go and get a booster and call it a day.  You are just making things up.


Did you really just respond in that way?!?! Lol! Maybe read it again and get back to me.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you really just respond in that way?!?! Lol! Maybe read it again and get back to me.


I have a new name for Husker Du.  Booster Boy!!!!  What a big baby and sore loser you have become.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Similarly if the Rs had nominated someone less polarizing than Trump in 2020 those suburban moderates wouldn't have been scared away. We saw that in the 2020 downballot gains from Rs.  Same here in California (Newsom would still more than likely have won but having Elder be the alternative just made it easy).  Big dilemma for them in 2024 will be how to keep Trump from running....he is getting up there in years and 3 years is a long time so maybe his health doesn't hold up is the best I can think of right now.


The GOP key is to be trumpy, but not too trumpy.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> The GOP key is to be trumpy, but not too trumpy.


We The People!!!


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The GOP key is to be trumpy, but not too trumpy.


There is some truth to that.  However, right now the Left's fixation with Trump is a bigger problem for Democrats than the Right's enthusiasm for Trump is a problem for Republicans.  This could change as we get closer to 2024, but I hope not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> Absolutely heart breaking. Yet we want to mandate this vaccine for even younger children. I really wonder what the death count is for death by vaccine as compared to death by covid in children…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455743667927502853











						Tens Of Thousands Of Black Women Vanish Each Year. This Website Tells Their Stories
					

Erika Marie Rivers created the Our Black Girls website to shine a light on Black girls and women who have gone missing or were murdered, a demographic that gets disproportionately less media coverage.




					www.npr.org


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> Similarly if the Rs had nominated someone less polarizing than Trump in 2020 those suburban moderates wouldn't have been scared away. We saw that in the 2020 downballot gains from Rs.  Same here in California (Newsom would still more than likely have won but having Elder be the alternative just made it easy).  Big dilemma for them in 2024 will be how to keep Trump from running....he is getting up there in years and 3 years is a long time so maybe his health doesn't hold up is the best I can think of right now.


So personality over policy? Says way more about those who voted this way than the candidate.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> There is some truth to that.  However, right now the Left's fixation with Trump is a bigger problem for Democrats than the Right's enthusiasm for Trump is a problem for Republicans.  This could change as we get closer to 2024, but I hope not.


Wat Fly the fence sitter, you were so wrong about t.  I understand why, i truly do.  This Lion of a man was taking on a serious foe bro.  Way back before 2016 to.  Look who is getting the last laugh?  Don;t pick a side dude, just go with, "We The People."


----------



## Grace T.

a. Looks like rates are going up in the Bay Area.
b. The guidelines are so severe the Bay Area is likely to be masking for a long time (same problem LA County)
c. it's a little funny....considering how vaxxed they are.









						Bay Area backslides on CDC COVID map, extending mask mandates
					

There are no Bay Area counties in the moderate tier.




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## Grace T.

pssstt......here's a secret.....some people said the same thing when the old folks got vaccine eligible....goal post got moved (again) so what makes you think this is going to calm the hysterical 1/3









						It’s Time to Contemplate the End of the Crisis
					

Immunity is rising, and the approval of shots for young children is one of the last thresholds before a return to greater normalcy.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T.

great minds....









						How the Democrats Lost Virginia
					

The pollster Sean Trende believes that the outcome of the gubernatorial election has less to do with debates about critical race theory than with the economy and the typical disadvantages of the party in power.




					www.newyorker.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> This is the plan as I understand it coming from many politicians and "experts".
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> View attachment 12018


You missed something huge.  What are those cartoon people doing so close together without masks?  You’re going to have a cartoon covid outbreak if you’re not careful.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The probabilities of natural occurrence v. lab leak v. engineered is just orders of magnitude off right now.


Perhaps you could expand the math a little before jumping to that conclusion?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Perhaps you could expand the math a little before jumping to that conclusion?


See above.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> So personality over policy? Says way more about those who voted this way than the candidate.


My son actually just did this topic in his first debate scrimmage.  They lost (got trounced by sophomores who had been doing it longer).  It's the issue of whether character matters in politics.  For some, Trump was just too much (ranging from vulgar to mean) despite the policy of the other side.   It's not just a Trump thing....it came up the other way with Bill Clinton and Biden (though no one so far has come forward with definitive evidence he's involved in his son's shady business dealings)


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> See above.


I see a whole lot of "I don't know what I'm talking about, so here's my conclusion".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> My son actually just did this topic in his first debate scrimmage.  They lost (got trounced by sophomores who had been doing it longer).  It's the issue of whether character matters in politics.  For some, Trump was just too much (ranging from vulgar to mean) despite the policy of the other side.   It's not just a Trump thing....it came up the other way with Bill Clinton and Biden (though no one so far has come forward with definitive evidence he's involved in his son's shady business dealings)


So you have nothing on Biden but that's still good enough for you?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I see a whole lot of "I don't know what I'm talking about, so here's my conclusion".


Good one Magoo, you old bean!  I see the comprehension still eludes you.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> There is some truth to that.  However, right now the Left's fixation with Trump is a bigger problem for Democrats than the Right's enthusiasm for Trump is a problem for Republicans.  This could change as we get closer to 2024, but I hope not.


More personality over policy nonsense. 

Let me try it this way by combining the two. Trump had a very clear record. Given his extensive list of policies and accomplishments, specifically where on that list, in order of importance to you, would you rank his personality and mean tweets?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Good one Magoo, you old bean!  I see the comprehension still eludes you.


I comprehended your "not competent to discuss" part, after which you went right ahead anyway and ended with a mathematical conclusion.  Show your work.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> More personality over policy nonsense.
> 
> Let me try it this way by combining the two. Trump had a very clear record. Given his extensive list of policies and accomplishments, specifically where on that list, in order of importance to you, would you rank his personality and mean tweets?


US Presidential elections are a binary process.  US Presidents are also a representative of, for better or worse, the character and stature of the nation.  I think records are more important, but character counts too.  Whether that's enough to cost or gain my vote depends on who the other side puts up against him.  I'd prefer to have someone else in 2024 for the simple reason that I can guess on the likely D choice and I'd rather have someone with good policy and good character beat that D choice.  The reality is, whether you agree or not, Trump is poison for many people, like my mom or my writer friend, both of whom are lifelong Rs, but are both NeverTrumpers.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I comprehended your "not competent to discuss" part, after which you went right ahead anyway and ended with a mathematical conclusion.  Show your work.


You'r comprehension failed when I explained it wasn't a mathematical conclusion.  There are different ways to analyze the problem.  Between EvilGalie and I, one of us has specific training in evaluating evidence (hint: it's not him) but we can both do it, though in different ways based on our training, each of which is equally valid.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You'r comprehension failed when I explained it wasn't a mathematical conclusion.  There are different ways to analyze the problem.  Between EvilGalie and I, one of us has specific training in evaluating evidence (hint: it's not him) but we can both do it, though in different ways based on our training, each of which is equally valid.


So the words "probability" and "orders of magnitude" have no meanings to lawyers?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You'r comprehension failed when I explained it wasn't a mathematical conclusion.  There are different ways to analyze the problem.  Between EvilGalie and I, one of us has specific training in evaluating evidence (hint: it's not him) but we can both do it, though in different ways based on our training, each of which is equally valid.


And as for "equally valid", lawyers can often a good living presenting nonsense.  Mathematicians cannot.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So the words "probability" and "orders of magnitude" have no meanings to lawyers?


yes they do....it's just less precise than what evil goalie is used to.



espola said:


> And as for "equally valid", lawyers can often a good living presenting nonsense.  Mathematicians cannot.


Some of the biggest nonsense on the planet is produced by mathematicians (as COVID and its models have well illustrated).  Mathematics is only as good as the inputs you get in there.  Because of their training, mathematicians are sometimes not able to see the big picture or these limitations.  It's why most orgs don't let them have the final say in anything.  As the scene from "Margin Call" illustrates, they pay the idiot who can't keep but mixing his metaphors a ton of more money because he has something the mathematicians don't.  "Moneyball": same thing.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> My son actually just did this topic in his first debate scrimmage.  They lost (got trounced by sophomores who had been doing it longer).  It's the issue of whether character matters in politics.  For some, Trump was just too much (ranging from vulgar to mean) despite the policy of the other side.   It's not just a Trump thing....it came up the other way with Bill Clinton and Biden (though no one so far has come forward with definitive evidence he's involved in his son's shady business dealings)


Exactly, great point - as I recall from my childhood days that is exactly where elections based on personality mattered, in school.

As any logical and clear thinking adult (I say this loosely) would realize from the past 12 months, grown up elections have direct and serious consequences - most important on my list is 13 Marines would still be alive and hundreds of Americans would not have been left behind in Afghanistan.

Maybe the problem is those high schoolers should've been being taught that life is a little more tougher than mean and vulgar, just a thought.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> More personality over policy nonsense.
> 
> Let me try it this way by combining the two. Trump had a very clear record. Given his extensive list of policies and accomplishments, specifically where on that list, in order of importance to you, would you rank his personality and mean tweets?


I'm going to pull a fence sitter move and say why can't I have both?

If you forcing me to choose...right now I'd rather have mean tweets than President Schleprock.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> Exactly, great point - as I recall from my childhood days that is exactly where elections based on personality mattered, in school.
> 
> As any logical and clear thinking adult (I say this loosely) would realize from the past 12 months, grown up elections have direct and serious consequences - most important on my list is 13 Marines would still be alive and hundreds of Americans would not have been left behind in Afghanistan.
> 
> Maybe the problem is those high schoolers should've been being taught that life is a little more tougher than mean and vulgar, just a thought.


I recall from my childhood days the thing which mattered most was: a) what their posters looked like, and b) what they promised.  The kid who promised the no homework always won.   Some things don't change o mater how old we are.


----------



## Grace T.

o.k. this is funny


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454473279578808323


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Some of the biggest nonsense on the planet is produced by mathematicians


That's a pretty amazing statement.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'm going to pull a fence sitter move and say why can't I have both?
> 
> If you forcing me to choose...right now I'd rather have mean tweets than President Schleprock.


Are you suggesting that mean tweets was t's only damage?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's a pretty amazing statement.


Ptolemaic system ring any bells?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Ptolemaic system ring any bells?


Are there any Ptolamaic scientists still practicing?  Your best example is an ancient superstition?


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I'm going to pull a fence sitter move and say why can't I have both?
> 
> If you forcing me to choose...right now I'd rather have mean tweets than President Schleprock.


No! fence sitter? call me shocked!

Not forcing anything on you, we both live in the same system - two parties, two primaries, two candidates - then pick one. Specifically, the last election couldn't have been any clearer. Both candidates had well-defined records, and for those of you for whom it matters, well defined personalities.

Let me try and clear up my point and ask again, specifically where did personality / mean / vulgar/tweets fit on your list of importance for the 2020 presidential election?


----------



## what-happened

Virus Is Surging on Navajo Nation, Despite High Vaccination Rates
					

The Navajo Nation managed to tame COVID-19 earlier this year, mounting a campaign that drove its vaccination rate far above the U.S. average, after the virus ravaged the Navajo people. But now the nation — the largest reservation in the United States — is enduring yet another virus surge, and...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Are there any Ptolamaic scientists still practicing?  Your best example is an ancient superstition?


It’s the big one which was used to suppress science and inquisite people

gave you a recent one: the covid models. Want anything one: the housing market figures in 2008

or google mathematical blunders. There are doozies.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s the big one which was used to suppress science and inquisite people
> 
> gave you a recent one: the covid models. Want anything one: the housing market figures in 2008
> 
> or google mathematical blunders. There are doozies.


Handwaving.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Handwaving.


I think it's funny how you STEM types have such a chip on your shoulder that non-STEM types (like me) are put in charge of your work because the money thinks you guys can't be trusted in your judgments.  As usual, you are always good for a chuckle.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I think it's funny how you STEM types have such a chip on your shoulder that non-STEM types (like me) are put in charge of your work because the money thinks you guys can't be trusted in your judgments.  As usual, you are always good for a chuckle.


Non-responsive.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Non-responsive.


as were you with the "handwaiving' remark.  It's a direct answer to the question you put.  You can't then claim "handwaiving".  Try again.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> No! fence sitter? call me shocked!
> 
> Not forcing anything on you, we both live in the same system - two parties, two primaries, two candidates - then pick one. Specifically, the
> last election couldn't have been any clearer. Both candidates had well-defined records, and for those of you for whom it matters, well defined personalities.
> 
> Let me try and clear up my point and ask again, specifically where did personality / mean / vulgar/tweets fit on your list of importance for the 2020 presidential election?


The reality is it mattered to quite a few people.  The reality is that it cost Trump the election.  As I always point out to dad4, you can live in the world you wish for, or you can live in the world we are in.  Trump is toxic to a certain number of people who otherwise support his policies.  You can go with him and increase the chances the rs will lose, or you can go with someone that will reflect his policies but be more palatable from a character point of view.  Youngkin showed that was possible...he retained the R gaines among minorities and the working class, won back the suburbs.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> as were you with the "handwaiving' remark.  It's a direct answer to the question you put.  You can't then claim "handwaiving".  Try again.


I'll give you a chance to start over in response to "Some of the biggest nonsense on the planet is produced by mathematicians "


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'll give you a chance to start over in response to "Some of the biggest nonsense on the planet is produced by mathematicians "


I responded thank you very much. I can't control your comprehension (or lack there of)


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> The reality is it mattered to quite a few people.  The reality is that it cost Trump the election.  As I always point out to dad4, you can live in the world you wish for, or you can live in the world we are in.  Trump is toxic to a certain number of people who otherwise support his policies.  You can go with him and increase the chances the rs will lose, or you can go with someone that will reflect his policies but be more palatable from a character point of view.  Youngkin showed that was possible...he retained the R gaines among minorities and the working class, won back the suburbs.



Rs looked to have gained Hispanic( sorry LatinX) share in both NJ and VA


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Dominic said:


> Great article!
> Many of the Covid recovered were exposed to the virus as essential workers during the height of the pandemic before vaccines were available. They kept the rest of society afloat, processing food, delivering goods, unloading ships, picking up garbage, policing the streets, maintaining the electricity network, putting out fires, and caring for the old and sick, to name a few.
> 
> 
> *They are now being fired and excluded despite having stronger immunity than the vaccinated work-from-home administrators that are firing them.*


*New Zealand Prime Minister Creating Two Classes of people ...*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> They also have decriminalized shoplifting and other similar crimes and so retailers are saying enough and moving out due to losses.


I have something to say regarding this. I'll put it on the "Bad News Thread". I'm seeing things I haven't seen before and I am wondering whether it is also happening elsewhere.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

MicPaPa said:


> Pathetic! This is the ball game - and their unions have hung them out to dry, they're going to spark a real insurrection.


They've always claimed to be for the proletariat.  All socialist make the same claim.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> More personality over policy nonsense.
> 
> Let me try it this way by combining the two. Trump had a very clear record. Given his extensive list of policies and accomplishments, specifically where on that list, in order of importance to you, would you rank his personality and mean tweets?


I have asked this many, many times before and got crickets. What accomplishments? What policies?


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have asked this many, many times before and got crickets. What accomplishments? What policies?


because you’re all set n the ‘vaccine’ thread… I appreciated operation warp speed.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Re the bats: In the natural derivation scenario, the bats* would have* infected pangolins as an intermediate host at a site other than Wuhan (southern Asia, Africa, etc), leading to a co-infection cycle of bat and pangolin C-viruses within the same animals.  Scales from these pangolins,* or possibly *live animals, were then transported to markets in Wuhan where CoV-2 made the jump. Genome sequence comparisons *support the idea *there are segments of both pangolin and bat C-virus present in CoV-2, *suggesting* recombination between the two viral genomes occurred.  Such recombination events are hardwired into the the C-virus replicative cycle and are part of the reason this group of viruses *can *evolve so quickly. *Whether these recombination events occurred* naturally at a site other than Wuhan or as part of a laboratory study conducted in Wuhan is an *unresolved question*. But whether the bats are native to Wuhan does not weigh in on it directly.  A thing to keep in mind is that, no matter the sequence of events in this particular case, CoV-2 *could* quite readily have arisen through a relatively well understood natural process. As humans come into new contact with co-evolved natural host-virus relationships around the globe,* some *virologists are *predicting* that we will be seeing more of these zoonotic outbreaks in the immediate future.


Bummer the State denied so many the opportunity for a natural viral update


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> LA sports mandate kicking in.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With too few vaccinated players, Crenshaw won't participate in City Section playoffs
> 
> 
> The Cougars do not have enough players vaccinated against COVID-19 to participate in the playoffs, according to coach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


So, it's a policy that is excluding minorities at a higher rate. You know the fear is off the charts when the left will support something like that. I'm thinking Jay-Z would conclude those supporting the mandates have no use for linen shorts.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> US Presidential elections are a binary process.  US Presidents are also a representative of, for better or worse, the character and stature of the nation.  I think records are more important, but character counts too.  Whether that's enough to cost or gain my vote depends on who the other side puts up against him.  I'd prefer to have someone else in 2024 for the simple reason that I can guess on the likely D choice and I'd rather have someone with good policy and good character beat that D choice.  The reality is, whether you agree or not, Trump is poison for many people, like my mom or my writer friend, both of whom are lifelong Rs, but are both NeverTrumpers.


Prior to 2016, I couldn't imagine someone with character so bad that I'd vote for Hilary Clinton. Then it happened. Based on how he handled himself after the election he lost, I am at peace voting for Hilary and a cardboard cutout over Trump. It never even got to policy with him.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Prior to 2016, I couldn't imagine someone with character so bad that I'd vote for Hilary Clinton. Then it happened. Based on how he handled himself after the election he lost, I am at peace voting for Hilary and a cardboard cutout over Trump. It never even got to policy with him.


I didn't vote for either of them and I like to think that was the correct vote.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Rs looked to have gained Hispanic( sorry LatinX) share in both NJ and VA


I hate that term

that’s not where Rs problems are. Trump made Hispanic gains too.  Trumps problem is with upper middle class voters that look down on his character and his manners. Ds btw held onto the rich neighborhoods…they do private, like the immigration for cheap labor and houses, feel guilty so the wokensss, have fewer economic concerns.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I didn't vote for either of them and I like to think that was the correct vote.


Hey we shockingly agree on something. Go fig.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have asked this many, many times before and got crickets. What accomplishments? What policies?


1. economy was good. At least it wasn’t as horrible as it is now
2. No new foreign wars. No great foreign humiliations. Now we have afghanistan
3. Immigration was at least somewhat controlled. Regardless of your stance on reform its wasn’t the disaster it is today
And then 4. Conservative judges (which if you believe in expansionist constitution you’d hate but it’s still an achievement
5. Deregulation (ditto)

true there ain’t a great new deal. But that shows your bias. It’s the left and the Romney Republicans that are looking for the great solution. Most Americans just want competent govt, not be humiliated, nothing too extreme. It’s why bill Clinton did so well despite the character issue.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 1. economy was good. At least it wasn’t as horrible as it is now
> 2. No new foreign wars. No great foreign humiliations. Now we have afghanistan
> 3. Immigration was at least somewhat controlled. Regardless of your stance on reform its wasn’t the disaster it is today
> And then 4. Conservative judges (which if you believe in expansionist constitution you’d hate but it’s still an achievement
> 5. Deregulation (ditto)
> 
> true there ain’t a great new deal. But that shows your bias. It’s the left and the Romney Republicans that are looking for the great solution. Most Americans just want competent govt, not be humiliated, nothing too extreme. It’s why bill Clinton did so well despite the character issue.


Ps but for covid trump probably still would have won.  I agree with kicking though…his behavior post election has changed that too…made him even more toxic (yeah I know that’s hard to believe)


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Prior to 2016, I couldn't imagine someone with character so bad that I'd vote for Hilary Clinton. Then it happened. Based on how he handled himself after the election he lost, I am at peace voting for Hilary and a cardboard cutout over Trump. It never even got to policy with him.


Not sure how you sleep at night  .   You could have pulled my and Espola's fence sitter move and just abstained from voting for President.  Your lucky your vote for President is meaningless in California, or our friendship would be on the rocks.  I almost went libertarian in last election before I realized that guy was a few fries short.  

Be honest, you just did it to save face with your neighbors. You need to get out of NoCal, you're being corrupted.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting study being picked up by ny post. Will post later.  But take away is deer are transmitting covid to each other (mink are the other ones we know of)…possible they can transmit to humans (unlike dogs and cats which are inefficient spreaders). Also interesting earliest sample is January 2020.  Note Animal reservoir means zero covid not possible unless you also vaccinate or eliminate the animals.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> 1. economy was good. At least it wasn’t as horrible as it is now
> 2. No new foreign wars. No great foreign humiliations. Now we have afghanistan
> 3. Immigration was at least somewhat controlled. Regardless of your stance on reform its wasn’t the disaster it is today
> And then 4. Conservative judges (which if you believe in expansionist constitution you’d hate but it’s still an achievement
> 5. Deregulation (ditto)
> 
> true there ain’t a great new deal. But that shows your bias. It’s the left and the Romney Republicans that are looking for the great solution. Most Americans just want competent govt, not be humiliated, nothing too extreme. It’s why bill Clinton did so well despite the character issue.


IMO his greatest accomplishment may have been energy independence.  Not just fuel costs but geopolitically that was a home run in my book.

I honestly don't care who anyone voted for.  I just find it annoying when someone denies the truth for purely partisan reasons.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Interesting study being picked up by ny post. Will post later.  But take away is deer are transmitting covid to each other (mink are the other ones we know of)…possible they can transmit to humans (unlike dogs and cats which are inefficient spreaders). Also interesting earliest sample is January 2020.  Note Animal reservoir means zero covid not possible unless you also vaccinate or eliminate the animals.


More reasons to get vaccinated.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> I hate that term


Pretty much every Spanish speaker does.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The left will still not catch on though. On CNN and MSNBC they are blaming the left's losses on the fact that the Dem's haven't been able to pass an infrastructure and freebies spending bill.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Pretty much every Spanish speaker does.


And yet it was invented by Spanish speakers.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Grace T. said:


> Hey we shockingly agree on something. Go fig.


Funny how easily lines get drawn in the internet sand….


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Not sure how you sleep at night  .   You could have pulled my and Espola's fence sitter move and just abstained from voting for President.  Your lucky your vote for President is meaningless in California, or our friendship would be on the rocks.  I almost went libertarian in last election before I realized that guy was a few fries short.
> 
> Be honest, you just did it to save face with your neighbors. You need to get out of NoCal, you're being corrupted.


Ha! I haven't seen any of my neighbors in over 20 months. I'm pretty sure they are all still there from the Uber Eats and Amazon deliveries to their doors  No, we don't spend much time with our neighbors. I know a few casually as I do my own yard work. I would never discuss politics with any of them. People are too crazy nowadays. I could definitely see a few of them reporting distancing violations from people on walks in the neighborhood - as has happened.

Dude, a few fries short was head and shoulders above the other candidates. I probably wouldn't have voted at all but my wife talked about being an example for our daughter, yada, yada, yada. Here was how I arrived at voting for Hilary. I asked myself if my one vote would make a difference in getting H or T elected, would I feel better about not voting for either and T winning? I had to laugh when Trump won. I remember thinking that nominating Trump was the biggest gift to Hilary. Turns out it was the other way around. Of course, if you listened to the media, you would have thought Trump didn't stand a chance. Show how out of touch they are.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> And yet it was invented by Spanish speakers.


That may be the dumbest thing you have ever said.

Is there a point you are trying to make?

Most surfers realize you shouldn't be out when there are great whites around attacking other surfers.

Your comeback? You do realize some surfer still surf when sharks are around.

You are consistent though. Rarely ever make a logical or coherent post. Don't change. Oh and yeah MORE GOVERNMENT is your other consistency.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> There is something seriously wrong with you.
> 
> View attachment 12019


Oh come now.  Check out below.  See?  Surely you can't be that cold. Just another largely hairless mammal helpless and alone in the world, hungry for nurturing and love.  And if you line up the sequences for the Ace2 receptor, you'll see that deep down we're really not that different after all.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> i couldn't tell you the exact orders of magnitude.  Do the exact numbers really even matter this point?  I can only tell you that given the evidence in front of us at the current time, one scenario is possible but would require a lot of variable to line up to make happen and is therefore highly unlikely at this point, and the other is not only possible but has a lot of evidence stacked up at this point.  You have a little of one thing, a lot of the other.
> 
> It probably comes, BTW, from our respective training.  You science types are taught to break it down into numbers...the numbers are all that matters.  We lawyer types are taught to assess possible/not possible and which is likelier in our evaluation of evidence.  The first year of law school is taught mostly to think critically and to identify problems.  The second (where most people take evidence) is how to assess those problems (the third is mostly a waste by way of training but hey the law school has to make money). It's why you probably are advised against hiring a lawyer for a business role....they'll tell you all the problems with an idea instead of how to go forward.


Would it make you feel better if I said I ordered the code red?


----------



## MARsSPEED

Something you won't find on mainstream media.









						Governor Dunleavy Issues Administrative Order Defending Alaska from Federal Government Overreach – Mike Dunleavy
					






					gov.alaska.gov


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> IMO his greatest accomplishment may have been energy independence.  Not just fuel costs but geopolitically that was a home run in my book.
> 
> I honestly don't care who anyone voted for.  I just find it annoying when someone denies the truth for purely partisan reasons.


Fuel costs were higher in 2017, 2018 & 2019 relative to the 3 preceding years under Obama. They dropped in 2020 as the world closed down. There is also a correlation between the oil price and the economic viability of fracking to get it out of the ground. So the higher price meant more fracking of marginal fields. Of course fracking is not exactly environmentally friendly, so removing regulations for the oil companies to make more money at higher prices to the detriment of any local environments and people, was a price worth paying for their profits "energy independence".

The current costs are partly to do with a surge in demand as the world opens up and the fact that the oil producers are making hay while they gradually increase production to meet the demand, i.e. they probably make more money with a "short" supply / high demand scenario, and do not want a surge in supply which would drive the price down.

Energy independence is also a bit of a "meh" for me. There is a strategic (defense) advantage in keeping our oil in the ground and using everyone elses as a hedge against a day when their's is all used up and we are still oil "rich". Practically we have more than enough energy production to meet any defense needs, so the independence thing is just a dog whistle.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> Something you won't find on mainstream media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Governor Dunleavy Issues Administrative Order Defending Alaska from Federal Government Overreach – Mike Dunleavy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gov.alaska.gov


I’m old enough to remember when federal funding was taken from Alaska because the feds didn’t like Alaska’s marijuana laws.


----------



## MARsSPEED

whatithink said:


> Fuel costs were higher in 2017, 2018 & 2019 relative to the 3 preceding years under Obama. They dropped in 2020 as the world closed down. There is also a correlation between the oil price and the economic viability of fracking to get it out of the ground. So the higher price meant more fracking of marginal fields. Of course fracking is not exactly environmentally friendly, so removing regulations for the oil companies to make more money at higher prices to the detriment of any local environments and people, was a price worth paying for their profits "energy independence".
> 
> The current costs are partly to do with a surge in demand as the world opens up and the fact that the oil producers are making hay while they gradually increase production to meet the demand, i.e. they probably make more money with a "short" supply / high demand scenario, and do not want a surge in supply which would drive the price down.
> 
> Energy independence is also a bit of a "meh" for me. There is a strategic (defense) advantage in keeping our oil in the ground and using everyone elses as a hedge against a day when their's is all used up and we are still oil "rich". Practically we have more than enough energy production to meet any defense needs, so the independence thing is just a dog whistle.


Wrong. Gas prices were higher for 6 out Obama's 8 years as compared to Trump years. If you take inflation/cost of living into account, Obama actually had higher prices for all 8 years. Please research your facts. The one below are from _Data Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics._ Thanks.






						Gasoline Prices Adjusted for Inflation | US Inflation Calculator
					

Gasoline prices are often very volatile with sharp swings in what American pay at the pump. The average price of gasoline dropped nearly 17% in 2020.




					www.usinflationcalculator.com


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Would it make you feel better if I said I ordered the code red?


I rather you tell us the tires couldnt have made those marks because of positraction.


----------



## whatithink

MicPaPa said:


> More personality over policy nonsense.
> 
> Let me try it this way by combining the two. Trump had a very clear record. Given his extensive list of policies and accomplishments, specifically where on that list, in order of importance to you, would you rank his personality and mean tweets?


Personality is important though. You can't just dismiss it. When you have a someone
- that starts his campaign with the murderers and rapists comment.
- is clearly misogynistic
- who enabled/encouraged/empowered white supremacists ("good people on both sides")
- who lied daily through his campaign and presidency
- who's whole political strategy is division.

 Its not the presidency of some local jack&jill club. This is meant to be the leader of the nation.

WRT policy, I agreed with many things that were done. I did fine under his presidency and the economy was doing very well. He inherited something healthy and helped it get healthier. That's a good thing. Obama inherited a shit show, and Biden likewise.

I have voted both R & D, but there is zero chance I would have voted for trump. Clinton was a shit candidate, but I held my nose and voted for her. Biden is not a lot better, but again better than trump. Neither of those were policy based choices on my part. 

I can ignore much in a politician, because they are politicians, but trump is a despicable excuse for a human being, imo, and I could never do anything to enable or encourage (by voting for) that as an example of our country.


----------



## MARsSPEED

We are also seeing the highest inflation rate since 2008 in 2021. I'm sure we all remember what happened in late 2008.





__





						Current US Inflation Rates: 2000-2022 | US Inflation Calculator
					

The annual inflation rate for the United States is 8.2% for the 12 months ended September 2022 after rising 8.3% previously, according to U.S. Labor Department data published Oct. 13. The next inflation update is scheduled for release on Nov. 10 at 8:30 a.m. ET. It will offer the rate of...




					www.usinflationcalculator.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> We are also seeing the highest inflation rate since 2008 in 2021. I'm sure we all remember what happened in late 2008.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Current US Inflation Rates: 2000-2022 | US Inflation Calculator
> 
> 
> The annual inflation rate for the United States is 8.2% for the 12 months ended September 2022 after rising 8.3% previously, according to U.S. Labor Department data published Oct. 13. The next inflation update is scheduled for release on Nov. 10 at 8:30 a.m. ET. It will offer the rate of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.usinflationcalculator.com


And the overwhelming majority are happier now, strange ain’t it? I guess not everyone is so desperate to attempt to spin reality into an image they prefer, they just accept it.


----------



## whatithink

MARsSPEED said:


> Wrong. Gas prices were higher for 6 out Obama's 8 years as compared to Trump years. If you take inflation/cost of living into account, Obama actually had higher prices for all 8 years. Please research your facts. The one below are from _Data Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics._ Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gasoline Prices Adjusted for Inflation | US Inflation Calculator
> 
> 
> Gasoline prices are often very volatile with sharp swings in what American pay at the pump. The average price of gasoline dropped nearly 17% in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.usinflationcalculator.com


I meant preceding 2 rather than 3 for Obama, my bad. They were trending down and then trended up under trump.


----------



## MARsSPEED

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the overwhelming majority are happier now, strange ain’t it? I guess not everyone is so desperate to attempt to spin reality into an image they prefer, they just accept it.


You are a special kind of stupid. *Last time I checked, nobody likes to pay more for gas and groceries, especially at an alarming rate of inflation. *Feel free to try to argue that people actually do like to pay more. That will be entertaining. If we keep on this pace, inflation will be at a 30 year high going back to 1990. All this in just the first year of a Democratic President and House along with a split Senate.

I honestly hope people like you stay fore front in the media. Come next year this time, we will have a conservative house and senate.


----------



## MARsSPEED

whatithink said:


> I meant preceding 2 rather than 3 for Obama, my bad. They were trending down and then trended up under trump.


Highest average gas price in history started in 2011, two years into Obama's term. That price did not go under the previous record until 2015. Not sure which side you are on but anyone who would argue for cheaper gas prices under Obama is a losing argument. However, Obama did do better in terms of overall inflation.


----------



## whatithink

MARsSPEED said:


> Highest average gas price in history started in 2011, two years into Obama's term. That price did not go under the previous record until 2015. Not sure which side you are on but anyone who would argue for cheaper gas prices under Obama is a losing argument. However, Obama did do better in terms of overall inflation.


I'm not arguing for cheaper gas prices under Obama. Oil prices surged from 2008 onwards for 5-6 years. There's a variety of reasons for that. Practically speaking there's a lot of externals that drive oil prices and little any president (R or D) can do about them. Trump did initiate a lot of deregulation in the oil industry and that certainly helped.

Inflation is surging. Inflation in general isn't a bad thing, but obviously if its too high, that's not a good thing. Its a worldwide phenomena and fixing the supply chain issues should be a priority for the Biden admin & Congress. Its frankly very disappointing that this does not seem to be the highest priority. This should be a daily priority for them. The Ds will regret not trying to sort it out sooner in 12 months IMO.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the overwhelming majority are happier now, strange ain’t it? I guess not everyone is so desperate to attempt to spin reality into an image they prefer, they just accept it.


Take the tin foil hat off.

I know you get spoon fed your propaganda I mean news from the usual sources...but even the usual sources report it. This from NBC from their Oct 31st poll. The country is not happier now. 

"In the poll, 42 percent of adults say they approve of Biden’s overall job as president — a decline of 7 points since August, *with much of the attrition coming from key parts of the Democratic base.*"

"What's more, the survey finds that *7 in 10 adults, including almost half of Democrats, believe the nation is headed in the wrong direction*, as well as nearly 60 percent who view Biden's stewardship of the economy negatively just nine months into his presidency."


"The poll finds *40 percent of Americans approving the president’s handling of the economy* (down 7 points since August), and 51 percent approving of his handling of the coronavirus (down 2 points).

Maybe even more troubling for Biden, *just 37 percent of adults give him high marks — on a 5-point scale — for being competent* and effective as president, and only 28 percent give him high marks for uniting the country."

And it goes on and on.

From the recent Pew Report Polling:

*"A majority of Americans now say that President Biden is not “mentally sharp,”*  according to a new poll from the Pew Research Center."

You are highly partisan. I am sure when you sit in the basement with you fellow friends you are all drinking the cool aide thinking this guy is great, the economy is great, thank God we have Biden. 

Try to break out of your bubble sometime. You are the one trying to as you say "spin reality into an image they prefer".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MARsSPEED said:


> You are a special kind of stupid. *Last time I checked, nobody likes to pay more for gas and groceries, especially at an alarming rate of inflation. *Feel free to try to argue that people actually do like to pay more. That will be entertaining. If we keep on this pace, inflation will be at a 30 year high going back to 1990. All this in just the first year of a Democratic President and House along with a split Senate.
> 
> I honestly hope people like you stay fore front in the media. Come next year this time, we will have a conservative house and senate.


There’s that desperate spin, lol! You just can’t help yourself, you’ve been conditioned to do so . . . there are no bad dogs just bad trainers.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Inflation is surging. Inflation in general isn't a bad thing, but obviously if its too high, that's not a good thing. Its a worldwide phenomena


Inflation is not a good thing for your average consumer.

It is a worldwide phenomena because over the past 2 yrs most of the advanced economies printed lots of money because their policies hurt economic activity.

And the idiots who run the country now think spending another couple of trillion on D wish list stuff will A) be a productive use of tax money and B) not affect inflation even more.

They even trotted out that their 3.5 trillion spending bill had a zero cost. As if...



whatithink said:


> There's a variety of reasons for that. Practically speaking there's a lot of externals that drive oil prices and little any president (R or D) can do about them. Trump did initiate a lot of deregulation in the oil industry and that certainly helped.


There actually is a lot presidents can do. Deregulation is a big driver.

The funny thing is with fracking and deregulation it helped bring our emission levels down to below what they wanted for the Paris Accords. Yet we did it without tying ourselves to the heavy regulation the left so desires. The main driver? We starting pulling a lot of natural gas out of the ground. It is both cheap and clean to use.

Further being energy independent is a good thing. It is far better to keep our money here vs filling the coffers of countries in the ME and Russia (the Euros get a lot of energy from them).


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'm going to pull a *fence sitter move *and say why can't I have both?
> 
> If you forcing me to choose...right now I'd rather have mean tweets than President Schleprock.


t was acting bro.  Just wait & see for yourself.  I love you man   P.S.  No fence sitting allowed in debate either.  Take a side and give your reasons why right.  I will come back with why wrong.  I use emotional bombs to hit folks right in the face and no one likes getting punched in the face online.  However, it's needed now more than ever.  This is way better then one of those old wars.  I like being next to a warm fire place with hot coco, my wife and my dog Iccy Bear looking out at nature.  I see you starting to see the truth.  My pal Brandon ((no fun intended)) voted for BC, BO, HRC and JB.  He came to the, "We The People" tent.  We welcome all colors, all back grounds and we leave everyone alone to do as they please.  I said long ago that either or is horrible.  It's We The People and that is it bro.  I love everyone, even my most evil critic, like that Golden Gate avatar.  Dude is in my jock and I know why.


----------



## crush

Listen up.  The greatest accomplishment t and his team did was ending the business of human trafficking.  The election was stolen ((allowed to be stolen with cameras and Space Force from above)) to take these cheaters out btw.  It had to be done this way.  Hate t all you want today.  I will predict all of you will be eating humble pie and crow because so brainwashed from the Tel A Vision. I'm truly shocked with many of you.  I can't wait for so many of you to wake up some day and see the truth.  That is my greatest joy I look forward to, the shock on so many people faces and the cries of joy and guilt, all in one.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> And the overwhelming majority are happier now, strange ain’t it? I guess not everyone is so desperate to attempt to spin reality into an image they prefer, they just accept it.


Who is this majority you speak of that is happier?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Inflation is not a good thing for your average consumer.
> 
> It is a worldwide phenomena because over the past 2 yrs most of the advanced economies printed lots of money because their policies hurt economic activity.
> 
> And the idiots who run the country now think spending another couple of trillion on D wish list stuff will A) be a productive use of tax money and B) not affect inflation even more.
> 
> They even trotted out that their 3.5 trillion spending bill had a zero cost. As if...
> 
> 
> 
> There actually is a lot presidents can do. Deregulation is a big driver.
> 
> The funny thing is with fracking and deregulation it helped bring our emission levels down to below what they wanted for the Paris Accords. Yet we did it without tying ourselves to the heavy regulation the left so desires. The main driver? We starting pulling a lot of natural gas out of the ground. It is both cheap and clean to use.
> 
> Further being energy independent is a good thing. It is far better to keep our money here vs filling the coffers of countries in the ME and Russia (the Euros get a lot of energy from them).


Inflation in the 1-2% range is fine, but we're higher than that and that is cause for concern. The driver is not necessarily governments printing money. All the while govts were printing money, consumer debt was decreasing, savings were increasing and demand was dampened. The velocity of spend is just as important as the money supply in inflation.

The D plan is over 10 years and includes items that the govt should be doing, specifically on infrastructure. The net infrastructure spend in the US started to decline around the 2008 crash as state and the fed reduced spending on it and never came back to it. That's been calculated in the $1T range of "lost" spend relative to what was been spent annually prior. Infrastructure spend is accretive to an economy and relied on by both business and workers to be successful. As for being paid for, the plan was laid out but never likely to be approved. That doesn't mean I think everything in the D plan is good, just that everything in the D plan is not bad. There's certainly plenty that is necessary and should be spent and it should be the govt spending it.

Fracking is interesting. The high oil prices from 2009 made it economically viable, and so the boom in fracking. A price point at around $50 was needed to pay back the bonds. The bust cycle for fracking once prices went below that started, with the cause being supply pushing down prices below viability (for many). Funnily enough OPEC like prices in the $70 range, but that enables fracking to be viable which drives up supply & prices down etc.

We import more oil from Canada that all other imports combined. We also export oil that could be used domestically, but its cheaper to export than to send it to the high demand centers in the US. So energy independence (consumption vs production) does not mean that we only use US oil. We are still sending plenty of dollars overseas.


----------



## crush

whatithink said:


> Inflation in the 1-2% range is fine, but we're higher than that and that is cause for concern. The driver is not necessarily governments printing money. All the while govts were printing money, consumer debt was decreasing, savings were increasing and demand was dampened. The velocity of spend is just as important as the money supply in inflation.
> 
> The D plan is over 10 years and includes items that the govt should be doing, specifically on infrastructure. The net infrastructure spend in the US started to decline around the 2008 crash as state and the fed reduced spending on it and never came back to it. That's been calculated in the $1T range of "lost" spend relative to what was been spent annually prior. Infrastructure spend is accretive to an economy and relied on by both business and workers to be successful. As for being paid for, the plan was laid out but never likely to be approved. That doesn't mean I think everything in the D plan is good, just that everything in the D plan is not bad. There's certainly plenty that is necessary and should be spent and it should be the govt spending it.
> 
> Fracking is interesting. The high oil prices from 2009 made it economically viable, and so the boom in fracking. A price point at around $50 was needed to pay back the bonds. The bust cycle for fracking once prices went below that started, with the cause being supply pushing down prices below viability (for many). Funnily enough OPEC like prices in the $70 range, but that enables fracking to be viable which drives up supply prices down etc.
> 
> We import more oil from Canada that all other imports combined. We also export oil that could be used domestically, but its cheaper to export than to send it to the high demand centers in the US. So energy independence (consumption vs production) does not mean that we only use US oil. We are still sending plenty of dollars overseas.


Dude, do you know what your actually about?  People are getting fired left & right, right now, all because they wont kneel and take two+boosters for life for the team in the arm. Because so many say, "No way" they get fired now and have to hold unto their money.  Small business is on life support and not looking good at all. This is going to get way worse because of people like you,  That's what i think.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> The D plan is over 10 years and includes items that the govt should be doing, specifically on infrastructure.


See that is where you are wrong.

They are using gimmicks like gov usually does. The taxes will be around for at least 10 yrs. Much of the spending items are for far fewer years.

So by saying the whole thing is over 10 yrs it makes it look better. What you have is front loaded spending but taxes going on far longer. It hides the cost so to speak. Most people fall for that shell game.



whatithink said:


> Funnily enough OPEC like prices in the $70 range, but that enables fracking to be viable which drives up supply & prices down etc.


That kind of is the point. Without our own supply, we would be paying more. Fracking forces the other countries to lower their prices. That is a benefit to us.

And while the Saudis, etc can drop the price to lower than $50 to make fracking not terribly viable, they themselves cannot afford to do so for long because they have built in a cost structure to their countries that require X amount of revenue to pay for. In short their funding for their programs assumes a price above $50 (at which fracking is viable).

The other thing about fracking is that it is relatively new. Over time they will get more efficient at what they are doing, and their break even point will go down.



whatithink said:


> We import more oil from Canada that all other imports combined.


Canada is a country where we should import from. Better to get from them then to limit ourselves, and then turn around and increase our spending on countries in the ME.




whatithink said:


> The net infrastructure spend in the US started to decline around the 2008 crash as state and the fed reduced spending on it and never came back to it.


To be fair much of what the dems call infrastructure in their plan is not infrastructure as we know it. They use the term in order to sell it. 

And it works. Watch the people talk about it. They talk bridges, etc. And your average person thinks yeah we need that. And yet much of what is in there is not infrastructure. It is another shell game to put in place a wish list that progressives have been pushing for many years. 

Here are some of the items in the "infrastructure bill"

- extended child care credit
- universal pre-k
- paid family leave
- expand obamacare
- expand medicare
- free community college
- let medicare negotiate drug prices
etc etc 

And so on. That stuff should not be in an infrastructure bill because it doesn't have anything to do with infrastructure as we know it. 

The above items should be in their own bill and called what they are.

Now things are in flux because there are pushback in certain areas. So you will see stuff, dropped, etc. 

Then of course you have the tax side of it which has a plethora of issues.


----------



## what-happened

Doctors must be honest with parents about unknown risks of COVID-19 emergency vaccine
					

We all want to do what is absolutely best for children's health. If medical providers get this wrong, everything is on the line for vaccines.




					www.yahoo.com
				




This is a good read, well articulated.  It's a stance that many pediatric providers fall in line with.  Tactical patience by providers and a joint, well informed decision conversation with their patients is likely the course for many.

There are a lot of important decision influencing details that the FDA and the CDC will not provide, and that's unfortunate.  Responsible pediatric providers will have the right conversations.  Moderna is  slow rolling their offereing to see how this plays out.  I'm sure it's not out of the goodness of their heart (pun intended).  Why rolll out a product that many will be reluctant to consume.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> The reality is it mattered to quite a few people.  The reality is that it cost Trump the election.  As I always point out to dad4, you can live in the world you wish for, or you can live in the world we are in.  Trump is toxic to a certain number of people who otherwise support his policies.  You can go with him and increase the chances the rs will lose, or you can go with someone that will reflect his policies but be more palatable from a character point of view.  Youngkin showed that was possible...he retained the R gaines among minorities and the working class, won back the suburbs.


I prefer: God gives you what you need, not necessarily what you want. 

You are certainly free to interpret the Virginia bellwether election however you choose, but we obviously read it quite differently. I don’t put much stock in polls, especially those conducted by legacy media, but for the purpose of my point I selected a random Virginia CBS affiliate. This is what they listed as the top voter issues in Virginia’s gubernatorial election:

economy 34%
covid-19 17%
education 14%
healthcare 7%
climate change 7%
racism 5%
immigration 5%
abortion 5%
law enforcement 4%

Understanding their list ended there, I cannot disprove your insistence that personality/manners/vulgarity/meanness/hurtful tweets etc. etc. etc. matters, but I can say with confidence that it mattered somewhere between 10th-? to Virginia voters.

I could care less about Trump personally, in fact, you can put me down as “personality 0%”, but you can also put me down as 100% for how Trump handled the above list. It’s not who he is, it’s what he brings to the table at a time we need it. The left and their water boys in the media/big tech are on the march to destroy this country as it was founded. It is clear to many of us that the McCains, Romneys, Jeds!, and even the Youngkins are not going to get it done. Thus, you got what we needed, not what you wanted.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Fuel costs were higher in 2017, 2018 & 2019 relative to the 3 preceding years under Obama. They dropped in 2020 as the world closed down. There is also a correlation between the oil price and the economic viability of fracking to get it out of the ground. So the higher price meant more fracking of marginal fields. Of course fracking is not exactly environmentally friendly, so removing regulations for the oil companies to make more money at higher prices to the detriment of any local environments and people, was a price worth paying for their profits "energy independence".
> 
> The current costs are partly to do with a surge in demand as the world opens up and the fact that the oil producers are making hay while they gradually increase production to meet the demand, i.e. they probably make more money with a "short" supply / high demand scenario, and do not want a surge in supply which would drive the price down.
> 
> Energy independence is also a bit of a "meh" for me. There is a strategic (defense) advantage in keeping our oil in the ground and using everyone elses as a hedge against a day when their's is all used up and we are still oil "rich". Practically we have more than enough energy production to meet any defense needs, so the independence thing is just a dog whistle.


Your points in regards to fuel costs are primarily short term related.  There is very little doubt by energy professionals that in the long term, eliminating projects like the Keystone pipeline, which contributes to energy independence, will have a negative long term impact on supply and the resulting costs.

It defies logic that having more control over our energy and less reliance on the Middle East is a "meh" thing.  Is it a panacea for all our ills, no, but its a very powerful element.  Having national control over what is arguably the #1 world commodity (I'd actually say water is #1) is not a minor thing.

In terms of "dog whistle" goes, you strike me as a moderate guy that wouldn't use the gimmicks of the far left which uses the term to mischaracterize the words of the right, often to cast reasonable arguments in a pejorative light.


----------



## whatithink

MicPaPa said:


> The left and their water boys in the media/big tech are on the march to destroy this country as it was founded.


What does "this country as it was founded" mean and how are the left & their water boys on the march to destroy it?

Genuine Q.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Your points in regards to fuel costs are primarily short term related.  There is very little doubt by energy professionals that in the long term, eliminating projects like the Keystone pipeline, which contributes to energy independence, will have a negative long term impact on supply and the resulting costs.
> 
> It defies logic that having more control over our energy and less reliance on the Middle East is a "meh" thing.  Is it a panacea for all our ills, no, but its a very powerful element.  Having national control over what is arguably the #1 world commodity (I'd actually say water is #1) is not a minor thing.
> 
> In terms of "dog whistle" goes, you strike me as a moderate guy that wouldn't use the gimmicks of the far left which uses the term to mischaracterize the words of the right, often to cast reasonable arguments in a pejorative light.


Keystone would have made more sense if it had stopped at the Chicago refineries.  

Going all the way to the Louisiana export terminals makes it clear that the goal had nothing to do with energy independence.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Your points in regards to fuel costs are primarily short term related.  There is very little doubt by energy professionals that in the long term, eliminating projects like the Keystone pipeline, which contributes to energy independence, will have a negative long term impact on supply and the resulting costs.
> 
> It defies logic that having more control over our energy and less reliance on the Middle East is a "meh" thing.  Is it a panacea for all our ills, no, but its a very powerful element.  Having national control over what is arguably the #1 world commodity (I'd actually say water is #1) is not a minor thing.
> 
> In terms of "dog whistle" goes, you strike me as a moderate guy that wouldn't use the gimmicks of the far left which uses the term to mischaracterize the words of the right, often to cast reasonable arguments in a pejorative light.


Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.

On the ME thing, we get very little from there.

The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
Canada52%
Mexico11%
Russia7%
Saudi Arabia7%
Colombia4%
The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
Canada61%
Mexico11%
Saudi Arabia8%
Colombia4%
Iraq3%

Agree, water is #1.

Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> See that is where you are wrong.
> 
> They are using gimmicks like gov usually does. The taxes will be around for at least 10 yrs. Much of the spending items are for far fewer years.
> 
> So by saying the whole thing is over 10 yrs it makes it look better. What you have is front loaded spending but taxes going on far longer. It hides the cost so to speak. Most people fall for that shell game.
> 
> 
> That kind of is the point. Without our own supply, we would be paying more. Fracking forces the other countries to lower their prices. That is a benefit to us.
> 
> And while the Saudis, etc can drop the price to lower than $50 to make fracking not terribly viable, they themselves cannot afford to do so for long because they have built in a cost structure to their countries that require X amount of revenue to pay for. In short their funding for their programs assumes a price above $50 (at which fracking is viable).
> 
> The other thing about fracking is that it is relatively new. Over time they will get more efficient at what they are doing, and their break even point will go down.
> 
> 
> Canada is a country where we should import from. Better to get from them then to limit ourselves, and then turn around and increase our spending on countries in the ME.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair much of what the dems call infrastructure in their plan is not infrastructure as we know it. They use the term in order to sell it.
> 
> And it works. Watch the people talk about it. They talk bridges, etc. And your average person thinks yeah we need that. And yet much of what is in there is not infrastructure. It is another shell game to put in place a wish list that progressives have been pushing for many years.
> 
> Here are some of the items in the "infrastructure bill"
> 
> - extended child care credit
> - universal pre-k
> - paid family leave
> - expand obamacare
> - expand medicare
> - free community college
> - let medicare negotiate drug prices
> etc etc
> 
> And so on. That stuff should not be in an infrastructure bill because it doesn't have anything to do with infrastructure as we know it.
> 
> The above items should be in their own bill and called what they are.
> 
> Now things are in flux because there are pushback in certain areas. So you will see stuff, dropped, etc.
> 
> Then of course you have the tax side of it which has a plethora of issues.


Sure, gimmicks, everyone uses gimmicks. Everyone sells based on what they think appeals to you and ignores the crap you'd be turned off on.

For the infrastructure bill, I already said there is good/bad in it, that's the nature of every bill TBH irrespective of who brings it. It went from $3.5T to $1.5T to whatever its at now. Its boring TBH. The Ds should start breaking it up to get some wins. They should do it in small pieces and pass it month after month to build a story of governing and investing and confidence in their ability. They won't and they will pay the price. My 0.02.


----------



## watfly

Random thoughts on the topics at hand:

QE kept rates artificially low.  However, the level of inflation we're seeing now is not healthy.  It's a effectively a tax on everyone, with the biggest burden on those that can least afford it.  When my carne asada burrito is $10 I know inflation is out of control.

It's not that Dem's don't have some good ideas, it's just that there good ideas are often way down the priority list.  And often those good ideas negatively impact the items of higher priority.  The Dem's try to tell you that you should be concerned about y over x, but only the kool-aid drinkers fall for that.  Wasn't it Carville that said "it's the economy stupid".  We may have to add "and don't F with kids" to that quote.

Character matters.  Trump is a thin-skinned asshole, but let's not pretend that Biden is a bastion of honesty and accountability.  Now in his defense he may not know he is lying either due to his obvious cognitive decline, or the fact his puppet masters only give him so much information, or a combination of both.

My wife's uncle is in a nursing home and is now seriously ill with Covid.  He is vaccinated as are the other nursing home residents, despite this, 15 other residents have Covid.  Remind me again how effective the vaccination is against infection and why we should discriminate against those that are unvaccinated, but previously infected.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> I prefer: God gives you what you need, not necessarily what you want.
> 
> You are certainly free to interpret the Virginia bellwether election however you choose, but we obviously read it quite differently. I don’t put much stock in polls, especially those conducted by legacy media, but for the purpose of my point I selected a random Virginia CBS affiliate. This is what they listed as the top voter issues in Virginia’s gubernatorial election:
> 
> economy 34%
> covid-19 17%
> education 14%
> healthcare 7%
> climate change 7%
> racism 5%
> immigration 5%
> abortion 5%
> law enforcement 4%
> 
> Understanding their list ended there, I cannot disprove your insistence that personality/manners/vulgarity/meanness/hurtful tweets etc. etc. etc. matters, but I can say with confidence that it mattered somewhere between 10th-? to Virginia voters.
> 
> I could care less about Trump personally, in fact, you can put me down as “personality 0%”, but you can also put me down as 100% for how Trump handled the above list. It’s not who he is, it’s what he brings to the table at a time we need it. The left and their water boys in the media/big tech are on the march to destroy this country as it was founded. It is clear to many of us that the McCains, Romneys, Jeds!, and even the Youngkins are not going to get it done. Thus, you got what we needed, not what you wanted.


Trump wasn't on the ballot in Virginia.  He wisely stayed away.  Youngkin didn't have any glaring personal issues.  There are two separate issues:

1) should character count in selecting the nation's leader...I'm agnostic on this, though I do think given the President does some flag waiving it is of some (but not overarching) importance.  It's a rational position to say it should count as 0%...but only if you give it a pass for both sides (otherwise you are just doing the partisan warrior thing)...that means Clinton and his lady friends shouldn't have been part of the conversation if you are consistent.

2) does character in fact count in selecting the nation's leader.  You are one out of millions of voters....unfortunately for you the reality is that for many people it does matter.   How much does it matter?  The way to probably think about it is as power boost in a video game....a positive boost (such as winning a war a la Eisenhower or Collin Powell) might get you a bonus on top of the issues but can't save you from a very negative position....a negative penalty can sink you particularly if you have a good opponent (or in Biden's case one that chose to use COVID to hide in the basement and then just be a blank slate to everyone).  The reality is Trump is toxic so he'd be going into 2024 with an overwhelming negative penalty.   Could he still be Harris?  Maybe...depends on facts on the ground....but he's starting with an anvil on him.

p.s. I'm no Romney or Jeb! fan....I've been saying since lawschool the problem with the Republican party is that they have a leadership more concerned with coddling elites than willing to fight.  There was a moment in the debates where Romney could have turned it....he was asked about the Republican Party....he could have said "for far too long the Republican Party has been concerned with the rich and well off instead of working americans" but he's not that guy.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.
> 
> On the ME thing, we get very little from there.
> 
> The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
> Canada52%
> Mexico11%
> Russia7%
> Saudi Arabia7%
> Colombia4%
> The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
> Canada61%
> Mexico11%
> Saudi Arabia8%
> Colombia4%
> Iraq3%
> 
> Agree, water is #1.
> 
> Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.


Since you have a more detailed picture of petro than I do, can you explain the reasons for the difference in fuel costs between gas stations a few hours away from each other in California and Arizona.  Recently I've seen unleaded in Phoenix at $2.95 and in San Diego for $5.09.  Maybe those are both extremes but they were both in similar suburban areas.  That's a $2.14, or 73% difference.  From what I've read the gas tax in CA is $0.67 per gallon and AZ is $.019, which is a $0.48 difference.  Where is the $1.66, or 56%, difference coming from?

Should we replace the "I Did That" Biden stickers on the gas pumps, with Newsom stickers instead?


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> My wife's uncle is in a nursing home and is now seriously ill with Covid.  He is vaccinated as are the other nursing home residents, despite this, 15 other residents have Covid.  Remind me again how effective the vaccination is against infection and why we should discriminate against those that are unvaccinated, but previously infected.


This is not a scenario that "experts" want to discuss.  A coherent discussion could be had but the vaccine mandate train has left the station, especially for adults.  I think the 5-11 vaccine  will be handled differently.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> The Ds should start breaking it up to get some wins.


Like for instance if they broke it up into things actually related to infrastructure. If they did, it would pass. 

Boring is why most people don't pay attention and we pass things that should not pass. Spend money we should not pass. 

Most people pay no attention. Most of the rest that do, look at the headlines only. Very few bother to dig into various news of the day items.


----------



## MicPaPa

whatithink said:


> What does "this country as it was founded" mean and how are the left & their water boys on the march to destroy it?
> 
> Genuine Q.


I draw a clear distinction between the left and liberals. By far the best explanation of that distinction I have seen and the best answer to your question comes from the below comparison by Dennis Prager. I could not say it better myself and fully endorse it:

_____________________________________________________________________________________


Left vs. Liberal

1. Race: This is probably the most obvious difference between liberal and left. The liberal position on race has always been a) the color of a person’s skin is insignificant and b) those who believe race is significant are racists. Meanwhile, the left believes the very opposite. To the left, it’s the liberal attitude toward race—it’s unimportant—that is racist. That’s why the University of California officially lists the statement, “There is only one race, the human race” as racist. And liberals have always been passionately committed to racial integration, while the left is increasingly committed to racial segregation—such as all-black dormitories and separate black graduations at universities.

2. Capitalism: Liberals have always been pro-capitalism, because liberals are committed to free enterprise and because they know capitalism is the only way to lift great numbers of people out of poverty. It is true that liberals want government to play a bigger role in the economy than conservatives do, but liberals never opposed capitalism, and they were never for socialism. Opposition to capitalism and advocacy of socialism are left-wing values.

3. Nationalism: Liberals believe in the nation-state, whether that nation is the United States, Brazil, or France. But because the left divides the world by class rather than by national identity, the left has always opposed nationalism. So, while liberals have always wanted to protect American sovereignty and borders, the left is for open borders. When the writers of Superman were liberals, Superman was a proud American whose very motto was “Truth, justice, and the American way.” But that all changed a few years ago, when left-wing writers took over the comic strip and had Superman renounce his American citizenship to be a citizen of the world. Free Courses for Free Minds .com The left has contempt for nationalism, seeing it as the road to fascism. Better that we should all be “citizens of the world” in a world without borders.

4. View of America: Liberals have always venerated America. Watch American films from the 1930s through the 1950s and you will be watching overtly patriotic, America-celebrating films—virtually all produced, directed and acted by liberals. Liberals were quite aware of America’s imperfections, but they agreed with Abraham Lincoln that America is “the last, best hope of earth.” The left, however, believes the left is the last, best hope of earth and regards America as racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, violent, and imperialistic.

5. Free speech: No one has been more committed than American liberals to the famous statement, “I wholly disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” But the left is leading the first widespread suppression of free speech in modern American history—from the universities to the tech companies that govern the internet to almost every other institution and place of work. Of course, the left claims to only oppose “hate speech.” But putting aside the fact that the left deems “hate speech” anything it differs with, protecting what you or I might consider hate speech is the entire point of free speech.

6. Western civilization: Liberals have always championed and sought to protect Western civilization. Liberals celebrate the West’s unique moral, philosophical, artistic, musical and literary achievements, and have taught them at virtually every university. The most revered liberal in American political history, President Franklin Roosevelt, often cited the need to protect Western civilization and even “Christian civilization.” Yet, when President Donald Trump spoke of the need to protect Western civilization in a speech in Warsaw, the left-wing media, also known as the mainstream media, denounced him. They argued that Western civilization is no better than any other and that “Western civilization” is just a euphemism for “white supremacy.” So, then, if liberalism and leftism are so different, why don’t liberals oppose the left? In a nutshell, because they have been taught all their lives to fear the right. But as one of the best[1]known liberals in America, Harvard Law School Professor Alan Dershowitz, said, “As a liberal, as an American, and as a Jew, I far more fear the left than the right.” Dear liberals: Conservatives are not your enemy. The left is.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Like for instance if they broke it up into things actually related to infrastructure. If they did, it would pass.
> 
> Boring is why most people don't pay attention and we pass things that should not pass. Spend money we should not pass.
> 
> Most people pay no attention. Most of the rest that do, look at the headlines only. Very few bother to dig into various news of the day items.


Its boring to me as they are arguing with themselves. Once they stop and come up with something, I'll pay attention to what they are proposing.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Its boring to me as they are arguing with themselves. Once they stop and come up with something, I'll pay attention to what they are proposing.


The problem with that is over the last decade or so, most major bills have passed without debate. By the time it gets to the floor it is too late. It is an up or down vote. 

In the past you saw debates on the floor about the pros and cons. 

You really don't see that anymore. So one has to pay attention during the sausage making process and put pressure on then.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Since you have a more detailed picture of petro than I do, can you explain the reasons for the difference in fuel costs between gas stations a few hours away from each other in California and Arizona.  Recently I've seen unleaded in Phoenix at $2.95 and in San Diego for $5.09.  Maybe those are both extremes but they were both in similar suburban areas.  That's a $2.14, or 73% difference.  From what I've read the gas tax in CA is $0.67 per gallon and AZ is $.019, which is a $0.48 difference.  Where is the $1.66, or 56%, difference coming from?
> 
> Should we replace the "I Did That" Biden stickers on the gas pumps, with Newsom stickers instead?


I wouldn't claim to have a more detailed picture. The price would be reflective of the costs to operate and how much you can get away with. If gas stations in AZ could get away with $5 per gallon, they would. I fill up at Costco. If going to CA, top up in Yuma (typically) and a one time top off in CA - and am shocked at the cost.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The problem with that is over the last decade or so, most major bills have passed without debate. By the time it gets to the floor it is too late. It is an up or down vote.
> 
> In the past you saw debates on the floor about the pros and cons.
> 
> You really don't see that anymore. So one has to pay attention during the sausage making process and put pressure on then.


Neither Rs or Ds are concerned with the plebs paying attention. As you said previously, they will sell the bits they think people like; and then squish in as much special interests (that the plebs would not like) as possible in side deals.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> This is not a scenario that "experts" want to discuss.  A coherent discussion could be had but the vaccine mandate train has left the station, especially for adults.  I think the 5-11 vaccine  will be handled differently.


Experts have been willing to discuss the scenario of breakthrough infections.  This board just doesn’t like what they have to say:

There are breakthrough infections.  These are more likely and more dangerous among people whose immune response is weak, even after vaccination.  If you want to protect such people, improve protections at nursing homes and reduce cases in the surrounding community.

But, as soon as you talk about reducing cases in the surrounding community, people here attack whoever said it.


----------



## MacDre

whatithink said:


> Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.
> 
> On the ME thing, we get very little from there.
> 
> The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
> Canada52%
> Mexico11%
> Russia7%
> Saudi Arabia7%
> Colombia4%
> The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
> Canada61%
> Mexico11%
> Saudi Arabia8%
> Colombia4%
> Iraq3%
> 
> Agree, water is #1.
> 
> Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.


The Bay Area already has too many refineries.  And the gas prices are always high.




__





						Chevron Richmond
					

Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.




					richmond.chevron.com
				











						San Francisco Refinery
					

The Evolution of Rodeo Renewed SEE ALL Community Hotline (510) 245-4070 Interested in working at this refinery? VIEW SAN FRANCISCO JOB POSTINGS Community Advisory Panel Year established: 1995 The goal of the Rodeo Refinery Community Advisory Panel (CAP) is to create an atmosphere of open...




					www.phillips66.com


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> The Bay Area already has too many refineries. And the gas prices are always high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> richmond.chevron.com


Your gas prices are high due to regulations/taxes put in place by CA.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I wouldn't claim to have a more detailed picture. The price would be reflective of the costs to operate and how much you can get away with. If gas stations in AZ could get away with $5 per gallon, they would. I fill up at Costco. If going to CA, top up in Yuma (typically) and a one time top off in CA - and am shocked at the cost.


I ran a gas station/A&W/Mini Mart as a court appointed receiver.  I can tell you that there is some price fixing involved if you expect to get fuel from the jobber for your nationally branded gas station, but the markup on gas is very small (or at least used to be).   Ignoring gas taxes, a 56% difference doesn't pass the smell test.  Seems like something Newsom should look into, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## whatithink

MacDre said:


> The Bay Area already has too many refineries.  And the gas prices are always high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> richmond.chevron.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco Refinery
> 
> 
> The Evolution of Rodeo Renewed SEE ALL Community Hotline (510) 245-4070 Interested in working at this refinery? VIEW SAN FRANCISCO JOB POSTINGS Community Advisory Panel Year established: 1995 The goal of the Rodeo Refinery Community Advisory Panel (CAP) is to create an atmosphere of open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.phillips66.com


How much does it cost to build, buy, lease or rent a gas station the Bay Area? I would expect with property prices (& taxes probably) there being off the charts, that it is expensive and that prices are reflective of that.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Seems like something Newsom should look into, wouldn't you agree?


Sure, sic him on it


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> I could care less about Trump personally, in fact, you can put me down as “personality 0%”


The only thing I'd add is that I differentiate between "personality" and "character". Two people with exactly the same perspectives may present those perspectives outwardly in very different ways. To me, this is "personality". Character is what is behind every action. My opinion of T's character was that it was worse than H - no small feat and not by a lot. Given how he handled the post-election process, I feel that opinion is further supported.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> The Bay Area already has too many refineries.  And the gas prices are always high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond
> 
> 
> Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> richmond.chevron.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco Refinery
> 
> 
> The Evolution of Rodeo Renewed SEE ALL Community Hotline (510) 245-4070 Interested in working at this refinery? VIEW SAN FRANCISCO JOB POSTINGS Community Advisory Panel Year established: 1995 The goal of the Rodeo Refinery Community Advisory Panel (CAP) is to create an atmosphere of open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.phillips66.com


Actually, I’d say the Bay Area uses too much gas.  We seem to have a decent supply of refineries for the amount of gas norcal uses.

But that high gas usage is being driven by the land use decisions made by local Democrats.  You want to know why so many people burn gas while driving into SF?  Go ask Mayor Feinstein, Mayor Brown, and Mayor Newsom.  They’re the ones who passed the zoning laws which caused the long commutes.

But then we’d be admitting that kids in Richmond suffer asthma because chardonnay liberals are too important to live near apartment buildings.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> The price would be reflective of the costs to operate and how much you can get away with. If gas stations in AZ could get away with $5 per gallon, they would.


It is reflective of the costs. The costs of regulations/taxes imposed by the various gov entities in CA. They make it expensive. Not just on gas, but on everything. 

The reason AZ stations cannot get away with $5 gas is the guy across the street will offer it for a better price. Competition is what prevents AZ stations charging higher than market prices.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Experts have been willing to discuss the scenario of breakthrough infections.  This board just doesn’t like what they have to say:
> 
> There are breakthrough infections.  These are more likely and more dangerous among people whose immune response is weak, even after vaccination.  If you want to protect such people, improve protections at nursing homes and reduce cases in the surrounding community.
> 
> But, as soon as you talk about reducing cases in the surrounding community, people here attack whoever said it.


I agree with you in principle. Protection in nursing homes and other measures have always been in place.  The reality is that breakthrough infections weren't even a topic of discussion during the marketing phase of the vaccine until breakthrough infections started happening. Sure, many within the fold expected waning.  Some were suprised as to the extent.   My point is the talking heads don't talk about things until they become broadly more public.  

I know some on this board don't like the idea of being vaccinated.  They are the minority, a small minority.  And they have valid reasons to be anti this vax.  You may disagree, but it matters not.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Personality is important though. You can't just dismiss it. When you have a someone
> - that starts his campaign with the murderers and rapists comment.
> - is clearly misogynistic
> - who enabled/encouraged/empowered white supremacists ("good people on both sides")
> - who lied daily through his campaign and presidency
> - who's whole political strategy is division.
> 
> Its not the presidency of some local jack&jill club. This is meant to be the leader of the nation.
> 
> WRT policy, I agreed with many things that were done. I did fine under his presidency and the economy was doing very well. He inherited something healthy and helped it get healthier. That's a good thing. Obama inherited a shit show, and Biden likewise.
> 
> I have voted both R & D, but there is zero chance I would have voted for trump. Clinton was a shit candidate, but I held my nose and voted for her. Biden is not a lot better, but again better than trump. Neither of those were policy based choices on my part.
> 
> I can ignore much in a politician, because they are politicians, but trump is a despicable excuse for a human being, imo, and I could never do anything to enable or encourage (by voting for) that as an example of our country.


I'm being a bit facetious, but I have trouble pinning a distinct "ist" label on Trump, he seems to me he was dick to anyone he didn't like regardless of race, religion, creed, gender, physical ability.  Not condoning it, just saying.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Experts have been willing to discuss the scenario of breakthrough infections.  This board just doesn’t like what they have to say:
> 
> There are breakthrough infections.  These are more likely and more dangerous among people whose immune response is weak, even after vaccination.  If you want to protect such people, improve protections at nursing homes and reduce cases in the surrounding community.
> 
> But, as soon as you talk about reducing cases in the surrounding community, people here attack whoever said it.


So, what would you mandate differently to reduce cases in the surrounding community and what difference will it actually make? How will you determine when the mandates end? For perspective, over 10,000 people a year are killed by drunk drivers in the US, and driving drunk is against the law. Whatever you mandate, you will not get anywhere close to 100% participation.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Experts have been willing to discuss the scenario of breakthrough infections.  This board just doesn’t like what they have to say:
> 
> There are breakthrough infections.  These are more likely and more dangerous among people whose immune response is weak, even after vaccination.  If you want to protect such people, improve protections at nursing homes and reduce cases in the surrounding community.
> 
> But, as soon as you talk about reducing cases in the surrounding community, people here attack whoever said it.


"Experts" have not been willing to discuss breakthrough infections relative to previously infected immunity and the discrimination against unvaccinated. but previously infected.  That's what many on the board don't like.  It's also the manner in which vaccination has been politicized.  We're not anti vaccination, just pro-truth about vaccinations and previously infected immunity.

You're on record as saying previously infected immunity should be considered as an equivalent to vaccinated immunity (generally speaking, I know those aren't your exact words.)  Most "experts" aren't willing to discuss any level of equivalency, and instead remain silent when it comes to get the shot or get fired.


----------



## Desert Hound

Racism is why VA turned red.

But they ignore the fact that those racists voted for a black Lt Gov and a hispanic AG.

Probably cause them racists got confused and thought those other 2 were white or something. I don't know...that would be my best guess as to their argument about racism being the driving force  But then again the ones peddling this are not too bright.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, what would you mandate differently to reduce cases in the surrounding community and what difference will it actually make? How will you determine when the mandates end? For perspective, over 10,000 people a year are killed by drunk drivers in the US, and driving drunk is against the law. Whatever you mandate, you will not get anywhere close to 100% participation.


I am not convinced that mandates are the answer.  

I think we all need to improve our personal behavior.  Get our shots, wear our masks, move our gatherings outside, and stop being such whiny little bitches about it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am not convinced that mandates are the answer.
> 
> I think we all need to improve our personal behavior.  Get our shots, wear our masks, move our gatherings outside, and stop being such whiny little bitches about it.


More preaching.  Again, not policy.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> "Experts" have not been willing to discuss breakthrough infections relative to previously infected immunity and the discrimination against unvaccinated. but previously infected.  That's what many on the board don't like.  It's also the manner in which vaccination has been politicized.  We're not anti vaccination, just pro-truth about vaccinations and previously infected immunity.
> 
> You're on record as saying previously infected immunity should be considered as an equivalent to vaccinated immunity (generally speaking, I know those aren't your exact words.)  Most "experts" aren't willing to discuss any level of equivalency, and instead remain silent when it comes to get the shot or get fired.


If your goal is to protect elderly people from breakthrough infections, then you vaccinate recovered patients, too.  Double protection is stronger than single.

If you officially exempt all recovered patients, you run the risk is that vulnerable people will avoid vaccination because they think they already had it.  (“I know I had it, I just didn’t get tested”).  They’ll be wrong, but they won’t know it until they’ve already spread it to 2 or 3 other people.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> How much does it cost to build, buy, lease or rent a gas station the Bay Area? I would expect with property prices (& taxes probably) there being off the charts, that it is expensive and that prices are reflective of that.


The higher costs of individual gas stations is not reflected in the price of gas at that station, or at least not reflected to a significant extent.  Individual gas stations only have a few cents of wiggle room in its markup.  The higher prices would be reflected in the items sold in the store.  This is where gas stations make their money.  Gas is the lure to get them in the store.

You could argue that the cost at the refinery level may be the issue, but Yuma and Phoenix get the majority of their gasoline from California refineries.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Actually, I’d say the Bay Area uses too much gas.  We seem to have a decent supply of refineries for the amount of gas norcal uses.
> 
> But that high gas usage is being driven by the land use decisions made by local Democrats.  You want to know why so many people burn gas while driving into SF?  Go ask Mayor Feinstein, Mayor Brown, and Mayor Newsom.  They’re the ones who passed the zoning laws which caused the long commutes.
> 
> But then we’d be admitting that kids in Richmond suffer asthma because chardonnay liberals are too important to live near apartment buildings.


No argument from me on this.  In the Hercules/Rodeo area locals feel that the Rodeo Housing Projects & Trailer Parks are enough.  Hercules has banned apartment development and stopped the Bart from expanding to the area.  I’ve heard rumors of a Ferry/Amtrak station but nothing has materialized.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If your goal is to protect elderly people from breakthrough infections, then you vaccinate recovered patients, too.  Double protection is stronger than single.
> 
> If you officially exempt all recovered patients, you run the risk is that vulnerable people will avoid vaccination because they think they already had it.  (“I know I had it, I just didn’t get tested”).  They’ll be wrong, but they won’t know it until they’ve already spread it to 2 or 3 other people.


again, your assumption is that breakthrough infections are sufficiently rare and the reduction in infection time is sufficiently large that you'll be able to maintain some semblance of herd immunity.  We are reasonably certain now vaccine immunity is declining with time, probably to much lower levels.  You can't get there, then, without either: a) boosters, or b) everyone getting infected.  Hey why not 4 boosters.  Quadruple protection is stronger than single!  I have news for you: it ain't going to happen that everyone agrees to line up for a booster every 6 months.


----------



## MicPaPa

Rather than making my point to multiple specific individual posts regarding personality over policy, especially since a mother has been cited as an example, I’ll stick with a general point and if the shoe fits……

Context matters - congratulations for living in the most exceptional country and achieving the type of lifestyle that makes personality one’s top issue in a presidential election. It is clear when your main concern is presidential personality/manners that the consequential policies, issues, and decisions have very little if any effect on your status and lifestyle. Consider yourself fortunate that gas & food prices, open borders, and pathetic national security decisions barely, if at all, hit home.

When comfortable, it’s easy to forget that all presidential elections actually have real life-changing consequences for many. So next time your primary issue and argument is personality, be grateful that it wasn’t your loved ones blown to bits or abandon in a hostile foreign country due to pathetic decisions.

 I’ll close with a historical example. When the country needed Patton on the battlefield, yet one's top issue is his repulsiveness to their sensitivities and how’d they’d never invite him to a fancy dinner party – maybe the point is not the manners, but the fancy dinner party.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> Rather than making my point to multiple specific individual posts regarding personality over policy, especially since a mother has been cited as an example, I’ll stick with a general point and if the shoe fits……
> 
> Context matters - congratulations for living in the most exceptional country and achieving the type of lifestyle that makes personality one’s top issue in a presidential election. It is clear when your main concern is presidential personality/manners that the consequential policies, issues, and decisions have very little if any effect on your status and lifestyle. Consider yourself fortunate that gas & food prices, open borders, and pathetic national security decisions barely, if at all, hit home.
> 
> When comfortable, it’s easy to forget that all presidential elections actually have real life-changing consequences for many. So next time your primary issue and argument is personality, be grateful that it wasn’t your loved ones blown to bits or abandon in a hostile foreign country due to pathetic decisions.
> 
> I’ll close with a historical example. When the country needed Patton on the battlefield, yet one's top issue is his repulsiveness to their sensitivities and how’d they’d never invite him to a fancy dinner party – maybe the point is not the manners, but the fancy dinner party.


You gotta live in the real world.....

If dad4 seriously thinks people ( a huge chunk of which are extroverts) are just going to wear masks everywhere even when they aren't mandated for 2+ years and continue to live as hermits (as he given his introverted nature might prefer) and without complaining, that's simply not going to happen.

If you think the snooty people around the fancy dinner party are going to let go of their snootiness and air of superiority, let alone forego the dinner party, that's simply not going to happen.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Rather than making my point to multiple specific individual posts regarding personality over policy, especially since a mother has been cited as an example, I’ll stick with a general point and if the shoe fits……
> 
> Context matters - congratulations for living in the most exceptional country and achieving the type of lifestyle that makes personality one’s top issue in a presidential election. It is clear when your main concern is presidential personality/manners that the consequential policies, issues, and decisions have very little if any effect on your status and lifestyle. Consider yourself fortunate that gas & food prices, open borders, and pathetic national security decisions barely, if at all, hit home.
> 
> When comfortable, it’s easy to forget that all presidential elections actually have real life-changing consequences for many. So next time your primary issue and argument is personality, be grateful that it wasn’t your loved ones blown to bits or abandon in a hostile foreign country due to pathetic decisions.
> 
> I’ll close with a historical example. When the country needed Patton on the battlefield, yet one's top issue is his repulsiveness to their sensitivities and how’d they’d never invite him to a fancy dinner party – maybe the point is not the manners, but the fancy dinner party.


Some of us our greedy and want both.  Great policies and great character.  It's not an either or proposition as you seem to make it out to be.  Forced to choose, I'm going with great policies, form over substance.  However, form is still important to a degree because it does impact the effectiveness of your leadership ability.  I'm not saying that fancy dinner parties are important, but there are generals that know which one is the salad fork and will still kick your ass on the battlefield.  It's really not a big ask.

Personally, I'm tired of being given the options of the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You gotta live in the real world.....
> 
> If dad4 seriously thinks people ( a huge chunk of which are extroverts) are just going to wear masks everywhere even when they aren't mandated for 2+ years and continue to live as hermits (as he given his introverted nature might prefer) and without complaining, that's simply not going to happen.
> 
> If you think the snooty people around the fancy dinner party are going to let go of their snootiness and air of superiority, let alone forego the dinner party, that's simply not going to happen.


p.s. I think you make an interesting point that first world countries can be concerned about character.  The 3rd world has had a horrible time with leaders of poor character, whether Saddam or Peron, Castro or Chavez.  Character is probably a check that prevents politicians from doing things that are too extreme.  While the 3rd world can't afford such niceties and as a result have a political culture which can fall into corruption.  Character is a luxury of the first world leadership.  It's also one of the reasons we can keep our republics.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You gotta live in the real world.....
> 
> If dad4 seriously thinks people ( a huge chunk of which are extroverts) are just going to wear masks everywhere even when they aren't mandated for 2+ years and continue to live as hermits (as he given his introverted nature might prefer) and without complaining, that's simply not going to happen.
> 
> If you think the snooty people around the fancy dinner party are going to let go of their snootiness and air of superiority, let alone forego the dinner party, that's simply not going to happen.


Me?  I have absolutely no belief that you’re going to mask up and move your parties outside.

I think you all will keep having indoor events, mask up only when required to do so, and then complain when an elderly relative has a breakthrough infection.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Me?  I have absolutely no belief that you’re going to mask up and move your parties outside.
> 
> I think you all will keep having indoor events, mask up only when required to do so, and then complain when an elderly relative has a breakthrough infection.


Then why you banging your head against the wall?:

-You have no policy prescription
-You are only preaching
-You admit people won't listen to your preaching.

What's the point?  Unlike the Baptist minister,  your soul won't be damned if you fail to do your duty.

or hey...you could do something useful and tell folks they should probably avoid indoor gatherings with the elderly relatives, at a minimum should get a COVID test, and never ever be around them if they are feeling the slightest bit ill?  Maybe even volunteer to pick up their groceries and meds?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> You gotta live in the real world.....


Dad4's song:






The rest of us:






Ironic considering the band grew up in Manhattan Beach, oh the struggles.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Then why you banging your head against the wall?:
> 
> -You have no policy prescription
> -You are only preaching
> -You admit people won't listen to your preaching.
> 
> What's the point?  Unlike the Baptist minister,  your soul won't be damned if you fail to do your duty.
> 
> or hey...you could do something useful and tell folks they should probably avoid indoor gatherings with the elderly relatives, at a minimum should get a COVID test, and never ever be around them if they are feeling the slightest bit ill?  Maybe even volunteer to pick up their groceries and meds?


The truly sad thing is because grandma is getting older and some people because of the travel pains haven't seen them a while, they'll fly off to see grandma for the first time in almost 2 years.  But they've been told the vaccines work and the breakthroughs are rare and grandma is triple vaxxed.  They've been told the masks works.  And it will be too cold to celebrate outside.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The truly sad thing is because grandma is getting older and some people because of the travel pains haven't seen them a while, they'll fly off to see grandma for the first time in almost 2 years.  But they've been told the vaccines work and the breakthroughs are rare and grandma is triple vaxxed.  They've been told the masks works.  And it will be too cold to celebrate outside.


On the news this morning they were talking to 5-11 year olds that had just gotten vaccinated.  One girl said "she could finally have a pillow fight with her best friend",  triplet girls said they "couldn't wait to play soccer". WTF are their actually parents out there that kept their kids isolated this entire time?


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Dad4's song:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest of us:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ironic considering the band grew up in Manhattan Beach, oh the struggles.


Well, he might benefit from listening to a little Celine Dione.  "Hadn't we better get the women and children loaded first, sir?"  The idea that school children need to continue to mask, be restricted from seeing their friends, not have sleeperovers or other things which are so essential to childhood and be vaccinated for the sake of the elderly is just so backwards.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> On the news this morning they were talking to 5-11 year olds that had just gotten vaccinated.  One girl said "she could finally have a pillow fight with her best friend",  triplet girls said they "couldn't wait to play soccer". WTF are their actually parents out there that kept their kids isolated this entire time?


Um...yeah there is. 

Someone on here recently was mad a the people not wearing masks because it means his/her kid could still not do sleepovers and do birthday parties. 

That is just one of many examples.


----------



## MicPaPa

kickingandscreaming said:


> The only thing I'd add is that I differentiate between "personality" and "character". Two people with exactly the same perspectives may present those perspectives outwardly in very different ways. To me, this is "personality". Character is what is behind every action. My opinion of T's character was that it was worse than H - no small feat and not by a lot. Given how he handled the post-election process, I feel that opinion is further supported.


I understand when you die on a hill it's hard to get off it, but my point is the hill you, and many on this thread, choose to die on is completely insignificant and utterly ridiculous in many ways. Who even uses politicians and character in the same breath? Yet, the best example you can come up with is handling of the post-election process? I mean come on, were you in a coma during HRCs (and the entire democrat world) never ending handling of the 2016 post election results? No need to be honest with me but you can't lie to yourself. In fact,  I believe it was you, that revealed the actual truth in a previous post, something along the lines of - your wife wouldn't let you vote for Trump. Don't feel bad, you weren't alone, plenty of other men(lowercase) submitted to their wives as well.

Let me try it this way, name your top 3 Trump accomplishments/policies that you did not like and what top 3 HRC would have done better?


----------



## MacDre

MicPaPa said:


> I understand when you die on a hill it's hard to get off it, but my point is the hill you, and many on this thread, choose to die on is completely insignificant and utterly ridiculous in many ways. Who even uses politicians and character in the same breath? Yet, the best example you can come up with is handling of the post-election process? I mean come on, were you in a coma during HRCs (and the entire democrat world) never ending handling of the 2016 post election results? No need to be honest with me but you can't lie to yourself. In fact,  I believe it was you, that revealed the actual truth in a previous post, something along the lines of - your wife wouldn't let you vote for Trump. Don't feel bad, you weren't alone, plenty of other men(lowercase) submitted to their wives as well.
> 
> Let me try it this way, name your top 3 Trump accomplishments/policies that you did not like and what top 3 HRC would have done better?


Dude, say…Pop.  That would be the sound of Trumps balls coming out of your mouth.  Grow a pair, and stop being a fanboy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Then why you banging your head against the wall?:
> 
> -You have no policy prescription
> -You are only preaching
> -You admit people won't listen to your preaching.
> 
> What's the point?  Unlike the Baptist minister,  your soul won't be damned if you fail to do your duty.
> 
> or hey...*you could do something useful and tell folks they should *probably avoid indoor gatherings with the elderly relatives, at a minimum should get a COVID test, and never ever be around them if they are feeling the slightest bit ill?  Maybe even volunteer to pick up their groceries and meds?


You think I should do something useful and tell folks what they should do?

Got it.  Here goes:

1- get your shots.
2- have your kids get their shots.
3- wear the stupid mask when indoors or near other people.
4- have your kid wear their stupid mask when indoors or near other people.
5- move your gatherings outside.  (especially if any elderly people will be there)
6- take the day off when you have fever, stuffy nose, or any other cold symptom.
7- find out whether your nursing home shares staff with other nursing homes.
8- stop complaining about every single mask/vaccine/distancing requirement

There you go.  Happy to help.

Did you think I was going to say that you should just live exactly the same way you did in 2019?  World changed.  Time to change with it.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> I understand when you die on a hill it's hard to get off it, but my point is the hill you, and many on this thread, choose to die on is completely insignificant and utterly ridiculous in many ways. Who even uses politicians and character in the same breath? Yet, the best example you can come up with is handling of the post-election process? I mean come on, were you in a coma during HRCs (and the entire democrat world) never ending handling of the 2016 post election results? No need to be honest with me but you can't lie to yourself. In fact,  I believe it was you, that revealed the actual truth in a previous post, something along the lines of - your wife wouldn't let you vote for Trump. Don't feel bad, you weren't alone, plenty of other men(lowercase) submitted to their wives as well.
> 
> Let me try it this way, name your top 3 Trump accomplishments/policies that you did not like and what top 3 HRC would have done better?


You're fighting a battle against claims that no one is making.  No one is dying on the hill of personality or character.  You're the only one promoting personality vs policies as a binary decision.

Any mention of HRC makes me throw-up in my mouth.  Any mention of Trump makes me roll my eyes and shake my head.  Any mention of Biden makes me think WTF as I grasp my head with both hands worrying about where were going to end up in 39 months at this rate.

We're on the same team, just at different positions.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> World changed.  Time to change with it.


Right there is your problem.  Not it hasn't.  We've been living with illnesses for millenia.  It's the height of arrogance to assume something about this moment is special.  And in any case, it's pretty much over (at least it's as good as it's going to get).  Time to get back to normal.

p.s. your authoritarian streak is showing again in No 8., which does nothing to help anyone except make you feel better about what you are asking


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> Trump wasn't on the ballot in Virginia.  He wisely stayed away.  Youngkin didn't have any glaring personal issues.  There are two separate issues:
> 
> 1) should character count in selecting the nation's leader...I'm agnostic on this, though I do think given the President does some flag waiving it is of some (but not overarching) importance.  It's a rational position to say it should count as 0%...but only if you give it a pass for both sides (otherwise you are just doing the partisan warrior thing)...that means Clinton and his lady friends shouldn't have been part of the conversation if you are consistent.
> 
> 2) does character in fact count in selecting the nation's leader.  You are one out of millions of voters....unfortunately for you the reality is that for many people it does matter.   How much does it matter?  The way to probably think about it is as power boost in a video game....a positive boost (such as winning a war a la Eisenhower or Collin Powell) might get you a bonus on top of the issues but can't save you from a very negative position....a negative penalty can sink you particularly if you have a good opponent (or in Biden's case one that chose to use COVID to hide in the basement and then just be a blank slate to everyone).  The reality is Trump is toxic so he'd be going into 2024 with an overwhelming negative penalty.   Could he still be Harris?  Maybe...depends on facts on the ground....but he's starting with an anvil on him.
> 
> p.s. I'm no Romney or Jeb! fan....I've been saying since lawschool the problem with the Republican party is that they have a leadership more concerned with coddling elites than willing to fight.  There was a moment in the debates where Romney could have turned it....he was asked about the Republican Party....he could have said "for far too long the Republican Party has been concerned with the rich and well off instead of working americans" but he's not that guy.


I'll say it again, I can understand being unable to get off a hill when you die on it, but my point is the vast majority of non-emotional voters don't die on this hill, and Virginia was a clear example in many ways, here are just a few:

1) Youngkin publicly sought and Trump publicly gave him his endorsement.

2) I believe Younkin ran the same type of campaign Trump would have - he ran on his own two feet, focused on God, country, education, social issues, jobs, and taxes. Also, he brought in no (R) politicians or outsiders, especially not Washington establishment types.

3) Last night on the nation's #1 cable news show, Youngkin, in his own words not mine, publicly and directly acknowledged Trump's robocalls as very significant to his election.

4) Youngkin benefited greatly from Trump's continuing hispanic shift (Note: Google a local election result Tues in San Antonio TX for another amazing hispanic shift).

4) Per Wash Post: 
Youngkin -  "Favorable of Trump" +90
McAuliffe - "Unfavorable of Trump" +66

To the contrary, your points regarding Trump and personality were on full display in Virginia.

1) I have family in Virginia and McAuliffe flooded the airwaves with anti-Trump messaging and went heavy tying Youngkin to Trump.

2) McAuliffe pulled out all the stops bringing in all the democrats biggest "personalities" including; Obama, sitting Pres and VP, celebs, national teachers union leader etc etc etc.

3) The media did their part throwing the whole trash Trump playbook at Youngkin and using the tired race baiting drivel, shamelessly on a black lieutenant governor and hispanic AG.

Your points were directly tested in Virginia and clearly failed. But don't feel bad, as you can see in this thread there is plenty of company on that tiny hill.


----------



## MacDre

MicPaPa said:


> I'll say it again, I can understand being unable to get off a hill when you die on it, but my point is the vast majority of non-emotional voters don't die on this hill, and Virginia was a clear example in many ways, here are just a few:
> 
> 1) Youngkin publicly sought and Trump publicly gave him his endorsement.
> 
> 2) I believe Younkin ran the same type of campaign Trump would have - he ran on his own two feet, focused on God, country, education, social issues, jobs, and taxes. Also, he brought in no (R) politicians or outsiders, especially not Washington establishment types.
> 
> 3) Last night on the nation's #1 cable news show, Youngkin, in his own words not mine, publicly and directly acknowledged Trump's robocalls as very significant to his election.
> 
> 4) Youngkin benefited greatly from Trump's continuing hispanic shift (Note: Google a local election result Tues in San Antonio TX for another amazing hispanic shift).
> 
> 4) Per Wash Post:
> Youngkin -  "Favorable of Trump" +90
> McAuliffe - "Unfavorable of Trump" +66
> 
> To the contrary, your points regarding Trump and personality were on full display in Virginia.
> 
> 1) I have family in Virginia and McAuliffe flooded the airwaves with anti-Trump messaging and went heavy tying Youngkin to Trump.
> 
> 2) McAuliffe pulled out all the stops bringing in all the democrats biggest "personalities" including; Obama, sitting Pres and VP, celebs, national teachers union leader etc etc etc.
> 
> 3) The media did their part throwing the whole trash Trump playbook at Youngkin and using the tired race baiting drivel, shamelessly on a black lieutenant governor and hispanic AG.
> 
> Your points were directly tested in Virginia and clearly failed. But don't feel bad, as you can see in this thread there is plenty of company on that tiny hill.


fanboy


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I'm being a bit facetious, but I have trouble pinning a distinct "ist" label on Trump, he seems to me he was dick to anyone he didn't like regardless of race, religion, creed, gender, physical ability.  Not condoning it, just saying.


I actually believe people are dicks who loosely and reflexively use the "ist" lable as their only response to destroy those with whom they disagree. I also believe it is an ever growing weakness in Men to throw the manners flag when one calls a dick a dick. 

I believe this country has made it to where it is on the backs of brave men and women whom, when necessary, stand by the belief  - when hit with a stick, hit back with the whole damn tree.

The only thing toxic about "toxic masculinity" is its toxicity to the country. It's time men reassume their roles as Men. Now that's a MANdate the country is in need of.


----------



## met61

...wait, what? ...right when we're about to force the vaxx on 5 -11...must be a one-off...oh, it cites the prestigious Lancet Infectious Diseases journal...meh, right wing racist... SQUIRREL!



			https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/11/03/new_vaccine_science_shows_mandates_are_unwise_146675.html


----------



## met61

MicPaPa said:


> I actually believe people are dicks who loosely and reflexively use the "ist" lable as their only response to destroy those with whom they disagree. I also believe it is an ever growing weakness in Men to throw the manners flag when one calls a dick a dick.
> 
> I believe this country has made it to where it is on the backs of brave men and women whom, when necessary, stand by the belief  - when hit with a stick, hit back with the whole damn tree.
> 
> The only thing toxic about "toxic masculinity" is its toxicity to the country. It's time men reassume their roles as Men. Now that's a MANdate the country is in need of.


...Fearless, Jason Whitlock?


----------



## met61

MacDre said:


> fanboy


...speaking of fanboy...Ibram X. et al were rightfully shown the door Tuesday...more to follow.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You think I should do something useful and tell folks what they should do?
> 
> Got it.  Here goes:
> 
> 1- get your shots.
> 2- have your kids get their shots.
> 3- wear the stupid mask when indoors or near other people.
> 4- have your kid wear their stupid mask when indoors or near other people.
> 5- move your gatherings outside.  (especially if any elderly people will be there)
> 6- take the day off when you have fever, stuffy nose, or any other cold symptom.
> 7- find out whether your nursing home shares staff with other nursing homes.
> 8- stop complaining about every single mask/vaccine/distancing requirement
> 
> There you go.  Happy to help.
> 
> Did you think I was going to say that you should just live exactly the same way you did in 2019?  World changed.  Time to change with it.


Agree.  Stop embracing Socialism.  Millions have been murdered because of such beliefs.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Who is this majority you speak of that is happier?


All those that didn’t vote for trump.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> All those that didn’t vote for trump.


Of course.  But you do realize that election happened last year?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> More preaching.  Again, not policy.


Why do you need government to make it all better?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Dad4's song:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest of us:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ironic considering the band grew up in Manhattan Beach, oh the struggles.


A lot of “punk rock” aka aggression release, came from behind and around the “Orange curtain”. The idle rich breed contempt.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why do you need government to make it all better?


It doesn't really have to be.  But policy does require some collective action...can't just be preaching.  Government is just usually the default because it has the monopoly on force.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> A lot of “punk rock” aka aggression release, came from behind and around the “Orange curtain”. The idle rich breed contempt.







There's a better doc that includes the Cuckoo's Nest, but I can't find it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Of course.  But you do realize that election happened last year?


And? Biden beat trump. They both suck, trump sucks worse. trump lost to a has been. Belief in his lies was trumps only hope, people quit believing them . . . well at least enough to send him packing.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why do you need government to make it all better?


It's just grace's universal way of criticizing any proposal to reduce covid cases.

If you suggest a policy, then you go must be a Maoist Nazi Stalinist authoritarian.

If you suggest people should change their behavior, then you're a Calvinist Baptist preacher.

 At some point, we need to connect the dots:
from "masks are child abuse"
 to higher rates of community spread 
to "my elderly relative just got sent to the hospital."


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> It doesn't really have to be.  But policy does require some collective action...can't just be preaching.  Government is just usually the default because it has the monopoly on force.


Isn’t that what conservatives always use to say about charity, “that’s what churches are for”? They preach in churches if you didn’t know, but maybe I got it wrong and you aren’t a “conservative”.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> And? Biden beat trump. They both suck, trump sucks worse. trump lost to a has been. Belief in his lies was trumps only hope, people quit believing them . . . well at least enough to send him packing.


Nice - we agree on something...both suck.  The issue is that people should control  the urge to vote emotionally.   I know it's hard.  We weren't able to supress the instinct in grade school.  It's worse now.

  Unfortunately we live in a time where opinion is skin deep and shaped for us.  Most people I know that voted for Biden voted against trump and not for biden.  Elections have consequences, now we sit, wait, and wallow.  Fortunately we can influence things more locally.  NJ and VA are a great example.  NY to some degree as well.  CA missed it's opportunity or chose the lesser of the available evils. Don't hate you for that, Elder wasn't the right guy.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Nice - we agree on something...both suck.  The issue is that people should control  the urge to vote emotionally.   I know it's hard.  We weren't able to supress the instinct in grade school.  It's worse now.
> 
> Unfortunately we live in a time where opinion is skin deep and shaped for us.  Most people I know that voted for Biden voted against trump and not for biden.  Elections have consequences, now we sit, wait, and wallow.  Fortunately we can influence things more locally.  NJ and VA are a great example.  NY to some degree as well.  CA missed it's opportunity or chose the lesser of the available evils. Don't hate you for that, Elder wasn't the right guy.


The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


----------



## MicPaPa

MacDre said:


> Dude, say…Pop.  That would be the sound of Trumps balls coming out of your mouth.  Grow a pair, and stop being a fanboy.


"Dude," clean your ears. Actually, that would be the sound of your mom's dentures being removed in preparation to receive the pair you recommended I grow.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


It is actually simple. The vote for Trump was for specific policies and promises made, and kept, as a counter to specific Obama policies and promises made, and kept,  coupled with securing Scalia's SCOTUS seat....the blasting back at the media was a welcome bonus and roadmap for (R)'s.

The vote for Biden was an emotional personality play, with little if anything to do with policies/accomplishments, at least that anyone is willing to cite, but maybe I missed something. I know I know, you want both, and my kids want a flying dragon....but in the current reality you get two choices, and in this case two measurable records. It'll always come down to how those records directly affect you and yours. ***See the data behind Virginia and New Jersey.


----------



## MicPaPa

met61 said:


> ...Fearless, Jason Whitlock?


Yes, I take a daily dose.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


The vote for Trump was also a vote against the Rep establishment.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It's just grace's universal way of criticizing any proposal to reduce covid cases.
> 
> If you suggest a policy, then you go must be a Maoist Nazi Stalinist authoritarian.
> 
> If you suggest people should change their behavior, then you're a Calvinist Baptist preacher.
> 
> At some point, we need to connect the dots:
> from "masks are child abuse"
> to higher rates of community spread
> to "my elderly relative just got sent to the hospital."


Or maybe you avoid outlining your policies because you know deep down they are authoritarian, so you fall back on the preaching which is…you know…preaching.

as to the elderly relatives as watfly has repeatedly said we don’t put sacrifices on them to save their elders.  It’s not the way it works. Worried about grandma post vaxx? Grandma can wear the n95, you can do her shopping and pharmacy runs, only allow the tested and vaccinated around her. But don’t steal The kids childhoods.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Isn’t that what conservatives always use to say about charity, “that’s what churches are for”? They preach in churches if you didn’t know, but maybe I got it wrong and you aren’t a “conservative”.


So much wrong in this:
A. Not a conservative
B. Charity is not policy
C. Churches can be policy. Eg maybe the pope should tell the priests to preach vaccination. Again it’s a collective action
D. But there’s a distinction between that and morality
E. Dad4 seems more concerned with manners and morality than policy, which more often than not involves coercive force
F. You also make the common liberal fallacy: something must be done…this is something…let’s do this. Do nothing is policy too.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


Certainly not far from the truth.  I think the Trump effect is unique.  Incredibly polarizing.   I know people who would have voted for the Saguaro  cactus in my back yard if it was the dem candidate.  Biden certainly didn't energize many people. People just didn't want Trump around.  Many people are willing to suck it up for 4 years or cross fingers that enough chaos exists in congress that nothing really gets done except for the basics.  Focus on local politics for 4 years and influence the mid term elections. .  Unfortunately we are seeing an entirely new level of ineptitude in government.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> So much wrong in this:
> A. Not a conservative
> B. Charity is not policy
> C. Churches can be policy. Eg maybe the pope should tell the priests to preach vaccination. Again it’s a collective action
> D. But there’s a distinction between that and morality
> E. Dad4 seems more concerned with manners and morality than policy, which more often than not involves coercive force
> F. You also make the common liberal fallacy: something must be done…this is something…let’s do this. Do nothing is policy too.


I find irony in E.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> Certainly not far from the truth.  I think the Trump effect is unique.  Incredibly polarizing.   I know people who would have voted for the Saguaro  cactus in my back yard if it was the dem candidate.  Biden certainly didn't energize many people. People just didn't want Trump around.  Many people are willing to suck it up for 4 years or cross fingers that enough chaos exists in congress that nothing really gets done except for the basics.  Focus on local politics for 4 years and influence the mid term elections. .  Unfortunately we are seeing an entirely new level of ineptitude in government.


I know people, including on this thread, whose wives wouldn't let them vote for Trump. Also, a new unique and troubling effect in Manhood.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> I find irony in E.


You miss the subtlety. I think there are a lot of people who care about manners and morality in their politics. That’s just a reality we have to deal with from a baseline.  I personally think character (not manners and morality) is important in your leaders but not as important as policy (I tut tutted bill Clinton but voted for him anyways). But most importantly if I care about the policy (like dont mask young kids) I’d rather not sacrifice the policy by backing a candidate that is likely to carry the policy but lose.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> I understand when you die on a hill it's hard to get off it, but my point is the hill you, and many on this thread, choose to die on is completely insignificant and utterly ridiculous in many ways. Who even uses politicians and character in the same breath? Yet, the best example you can come up with is handling of the post-election process? I mean come on, were you in a coma during HRCs (and the entire democrat world) never ending handling of the 2016 post election results? No need to be honest with me but you can't lie to yourself. In fact,  I believe it was you, that revealed the actual truth in a previous post, something along the lines of - your wife wouldn't let you vote for Trump. Don't feel bad, you weren't alone, plenty of other men(lowercase) submitted to their wives as well.
> 
> Let me try it this way, name your top 3 Trump accomplishments/policies that you did not like and what top 3 HRC would have done better?


Hahaha! Hill to die on? I did what @watfly did, held my nose, and voted. (FYI, I first read it as "when you die on a hillary it's hard to get off" - wrong on SO many levels) I can't say I felt anything when Trump won other than, damn, I didn't think he had a chance. Nor did I celebrate Biden's win. Politicians and character? They all got elected. Maybe we should ask about the electorate and character. However, if H would have won, I wouldn't have called that a victory for character - unless it was part of a joke. The "mainstream" media has lost all pretense of unbiased reporting. HRC and her supporters including the adoring media elites were whiney little bitches (Vaccine Thread ™) after H lost the election. It's still not equivalent to what Trump did - not really close.

Yes, my wife felt strongly about T while at the same time having little love for H. Saying she "wouldn't let me vote for Trump" was hyperbole. We have voted differently in the past. As much as H was deep into the sleazy fabric of politics, I still had some sort of sense she was part of something bigger than herself - politics - sleaze and all. The more I saw (and see) T, the more it's about a spoiled child who always got his way and was never told his shit stinks. He was all about T and that was all that mattered. Those kinds of people are a special kind of scary.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


"Jerking back and forth" might be a reasonable new national anthem.  Sung over distant laughing coming from an antechamber behind a curtain.


----------



## Grace T.

The best thing about Pfizer coming up with a covid pill is that it’s Pfizer.  That company is a regulatory tiger and unlike the others won’t let the red take stand between it in cash.   If having the damn pill gives us one more reason to move on I’m all for it considering from what we see in Europe at least a small but maybe larger winter wave is a foot


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> The only thing I'd add is that I differentiate between "personality" and "character". Two people with exactly the same perspectives may present those perspectives outwardly in very different ways. To me, this is "personality". Character is what is behind every action. My opinion of T's character was that it was worse than H - no small feat and not by a lot. Given how he handled the post-election process, I feel that opinion is further supported.


One vote for HRC....lol!  Wow, this will be the biggest character read mistake of a human ever in your life.  This woman is responsible for more death to unborn babies then any woman ever.  She took the torch from her evil mentor.  I love you despite WHO you vote for.  Thanks for sharing your heart brother.  I supported Gen. Powelll but he lied to us and to some friends of mine who lost some limbs.  Those two were all for war bro.  Killed millions with their vote!!!  t, he was no for that BS war and his character is very good.  You watched too much Tel A Vision and have been brainwashed.  I am a voice for all of you.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> It is reflective of the costs. The costs of regulations/taxes imposed by the various gov entities in CA. They make it expensive. Not just on gas, but on everything.
> 
> The reason AZ stations cannot get away with $5 gas is the guy across the street will offer it for a better price. Competition is what prevents AZ stations charging higher than market prices.


I sold Sparklets water back in early 90s.  My competition was Arrowhead.  I was not a water boy, just sales.  I did dress the part and I think some of the ladies thought I was going to be their water boy.  Anyway, the Arrowhead water guy and Sparklets dude hated me in Pasadena.  They had the highest 5 Gal bottle average in the country, $7.75 A bottle.  I came into Pasadena and had a record week.  I think I got 25 new accounts, all stolen from Arrowhead.  These two drivers were driving up the cost and I came in dropped my pants to $6.00.  You would think I would get some praise for my efforts but nope, just all drivers telling my boss I dont sell the "value" of the H20.....


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> On the news this morning they were talking to 5-11 year olds that had just gotten vaccinated.  One girl said "she could finally have a pillow fight with her best friend",  triplet girls said they "couldn't wait to play soccer". WTF are their actually parents out there that kept their kids isolated this entire time?


Crazy times we live in bro.  Look, based on all my catch up reading this morning, I would say fear rules the world.  Fear is real and I honestly forgot about it.  All the fear I had about life, finances, soccer for my dd, how I will survive all this is all gone.  The salt timer is now flipped 100% and blessings are coming my way now.  It took 4 years to knock me off the hamster wheel.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> The vote for Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and the vote for Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Oversimplification, but not far from the truth.


Wrong!!!


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> I know people, including on this thread,* whose wives wouldn't let them vote for Trump*. Also, a new unique and troubling effect in Manhood.


Best take from yesterday, moo.  I know a man that was told if he doesnt get jabbed, no sex from his wife and she will divorce him and take half of the $$$.  This is serious shit that has to do with so much from the mental inside of a man who is a slave to his wife.  She controls sex and politics.  He looks like a stud from the outside but he hates his wife but stays with her because he doesnt want to lose half.  So the fool gets jabbed ((didnt want to)) twice and just got booster last month.  He's fucking been sick the last four days with guess what you guys?  The dude is trapped and a slave and is Misérables.  But he does look good driving his E350 and his killer beach house.  He also had to vote for HRC and JB or his wife would have outted him at all the liberal parties they have been attending the last 10 years.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *You miss the subtlety. I think there are a lot of people who care about manners and morality in their politics. *


Please Grace T, we have no morality or manners.  Cheating and stealing ruins that dream of yours and seems to pass you in all your analyses of this and that.  You will get a big wake up call soon.  All of you except mic papa are too focused on the surface and not looking deep at the truth.  Grace T, you are 100% wrong about so much.  I love you and hope someday you will see the truth


----------



## Desert Hound

Just a thought or comment. 

So the vaxx mandate is being done because the virus is bad and needs to be stopped. 

The mandate applies to employers with more than 100 employees. 

Are employers with less than 100 people not at risk of the virus? 

Why mandate it for one group of companies and not the other?


----------



## met61

...wait, what? meh, immunity/protection... potato/patato...uuuh, I'm sure government has a good reason...now shut up sheep and quit asking questions... SQUIRREL!









						CDC Emails: Our Definition of Vaccine is "Problematic"
					

CDC: Problematic Vaccine? No, Problematic Definition of Vaccine.




					technofog.substack.com


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> So the vaxx mandate is being done because the virus is bad and needs to be stopped.
> The mandate applies to employers with more than 100 employees.
> Are employers with less than 100 people not at risk of the virus?
> *Why mandate it for one group of companies and not the other?*


To destroy small business.  Start with 100 or more to "force" what JB can;t force himself.  He can only tell owners like Wat Fly what to do and try and scare them into obedience.  Scare tactics with one's lively hood is real and is happening to so many.  If you have an owner who voted for HRC and JB and hates t as much as Espola and Husker, well then you have pure politics and evil in your life.  None of this makes any sense because in war, nothing does and things can get messy.  I love you Hound and can;t wait to have some time together next week.  I will bring my mask if you bring yours....lol!  I can;t believe were about to enter our third year of Rona.  BTW bro, I will be in disguise in Del Mar.  I have made many enemies in the last three years and I dont want any trouble with any of the dads who have threaten me.  My treat too


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The best thing about Pfizer coming up with a covid pill is that it’s Pfizer.  That company is a regulatory tiger and unlike the others won’t let the red take stand between it in cash.   If having the damn pill gives us one more reason to move on I’m all for it considering from what we see in Europe at least a small but maybe larger winter wave is a foot


Pfizer is clever and has positioned itself very well.  Doesn't hurt that key influencers are within its ranks. They've basically captured the covid market.  And they've done without having to spend too many $$$ on advertisement.  The government has basically done it for them.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Pfizer is clever and has positioned itself very well.  Doesn't hurt that key influencers are within its ranks. They've basically captured the covid market.  And they've done without having to spend too many $$$ on advertisement.  The government has basically done it for them.


This all reminds me of when Google came on to the scene.  They needed the addresses and phone numbers of all the businesses.  Only one company had The List and that was the Phone Company and their Yellow Page listings.  I told the executives way back in the day not to do business with Google but they didnt listen.  Where is Google today?  Yellow Pages?  Pfizer have boots on the ground and free advertisements from so many I know and right here at the forum.  Wives telling husbands, "no sex if no jab" is big time easy money for big pharma.  Now we all know why ED is super real.  I know so many men who have to cow tow to whatever the wife demands and the romance is gone and in comes ED.  I have the answers to all this if anyone wants help.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> The idle rich breed contempt.


Socialism defined.


----------



## what-happened

crush said:


> This all reminds me of when Google came on to the scene.  They needed the addresses and phone numbers of all the businesses.  Only one company had The List and that was the Phone Company and their Yellow Page listings.  I told the executives way back in the day not to do business with Google but they didnt listen.  Where is Google today?  Yellow Pages?  Pfizer have boots on the ground and free advertisements from so many I know and right here at the forum.  Wives telling husbands, "no sex if no jab" is big time easy money for big pharma.  Now we all know why ED is super real.  I know so many men who have to cow tow to whatever the wife demands and the romance is gone and in comes ED.  I have the answers to all this if anyone wants help.


Pfizer can also help with ED.  Their portfolio is rather diverse. One stop shop.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> Pfizer is clever and has positioned itself very well.  Doesn't hurt that key influencers are within its ranks. They've basically captured the covid market.  And they've done without having to spend too many $$$ on advertisement.  The government has basically done it for them.


Fauci is head of Marketing.  Plus, if you bail out Pfizer, you bail out the TBTF banks that are Pfizers creditors.  Same game, different sector.  The revolving door is greased.


----------



## MicPaPa

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Hill to die on? I did what @watfly did, held my nose, and voted. (FYI, I first read it as "when you die on a hillary it's hard to get off" - wrong on SO many levels) I can't say I felt anything when Trump won other than, damn, I didn't think he had a chance. Nor did I celebrate Biden's win. Politicians and character? They all got elected. Maybe we should ask about the electorate and character. However, if H would have won, I wouldn't have called that a victory for character - unless it was part of a joke. The "mainstream" media has lost all pretense of unbiased reporting. HRC and her supporters including the adoring media elites were whiney little bitches (Vaccine Thread ™) after H lost the election. It's still not equivalent to what Trump did - not really close.
> 
> Yes, my wife felt strongly about T while at the same time having little love for H. Saying she "wouldn't let me vote for Trump" was hyperbole. We have voted differently in the past. As much as H was deep into the sleazy fabric of politics, I still had some sort of sense she was part of something bigger than herself - politics - sleaze and all. The more I saw (and see) T, the more it's about a spoiled child who always got his way and was never told his shit stinks. He was all about T and that was all that mattered. Those kinds of people are a special kind of scary.


There you have it, all this word count on personality and not a mention of policy. You've made my point perfectly. Although, I don't know any free Men, when talking about other men, are so obsessed with popularity contests and use descriptions like "spoiled child" and "special kind of scary"..... Sounds a little wife-dominant puppeting to me.

Again, congrats on achieving a status where gas and food prices along with reckless foreign policy decisions don't hit home. But let's face it, this doesn't change my point that your wife probably mandated she fill out your mail-in ballot while you submissively massaged her bunions.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Pfizer can also help with ED.  Their portfolio is rather diverse. *One stop shop.*


Oh shit, I forgot about that.  If your hooked on boosters for the rest of your life then you might as well sign up for the ED pills.  First off, this is a super serious issue for men in their 40s and above and not to take lightly.  I know why and it has nothing to do with some problem with the all important erection (((E) from now on)).  I just wanted everyone to understand what E stands for.  ED is serious.  It messes not only mentally in the head for the dude, but also for the female who can;t receive.  Tel A Vision also played a role in how we all view intimacy or lack there of.  Pornhub has been teaching our young boys now for years and dad is also catching on.  Think for second:  Wife yells at hubby to get the fucking jab or no sex.  Hubby inside is a free thinker but has 25 years, three kiddos and millions at stake.  Husband is being attacked at work from some woman who thinks he's the best man ever and they want him.  The wife just nags at him when he gets home and ask him to watch the kids so she can go out with her friends.  When they actually do find some time for a meet up, he has ED.  Now the wife is really pissed off.  So hubby goes to the Doc and the Doc prescribes him some ED pills.  This is a true story of a dear pal of mine.  I told him you do not have ED but you're 100% a great client for your wife and big Pharma.  Dude is owned and controlled like a little rat on the rat wheel.  TGIFF!!


----------



## crush

A word from Bill and what we need to do for the next big one.  He wants a task force with the likes of Golden Gate and Husker Du running the Force.  You get what you ask for folks and this is what you get.  More of the same until you all obey.  When that happens, then Bill and his crew will allow you to roam the land freely.  Dude is buying up all the farm land and is making fake meat as I speak.  









						Bill Gates now warns of a bioterrorist smallpox pandemic! Gates: How would the world react to that?
					

Video taken from Faruk Firat Offiziell. - Is the next sick plan being announced here already?  Telegram: https://t.me/farukfirat




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## lafalafa

Another tool in the bag besides just vax









						Antiviral Covid pill 89% effective, Pfizer says - BBC News
					

The company stopped clinical trials early because initial results for the drug were so positive.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Just a thought or comment.
> 
> So the vaxx mandate is being done because the virus is bad and needs to be stopped.
> 
> The mandate applies to employers with more than 100 employees.
> 
> Are employers with less than 100 people not at risk of the virus?
> 
> Why mandate it for one group of companies and not the other?


It's so that he can make the argument it's valid under the interstate commerce clause.  Presumably, the argument goes, companies with 100 employees are large enough to impact, directly or indirectly, interstate commerce where a mom and pop diner of 5 employees might not.   Not passing on the merits of the argument....just why it's being done that way.  

That's the cliff notes version.  The real in depth meat has to do with the commerce clause, Congressional powers delegation, the OSHA statute and chevron.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It's so that he can make the argument it's valid under the interstate commerce clause.  Presumably, the argument goes, companies with 100 employees are large enough to impact, directly or indirectly, *interstate commerce where a mom and pop diner of 5 employees might not.  * Not passing on the merits of the argument....just why it's being done that way.
> 
> That's the cliff notes version.  The real in depth meat has to do with the commerce clause, Congressional powers delegation, the OSHA statute and chevron.


Mom and pop diner for the most part is no more Grace T.  I was at very popular eat places in Aliso Viejo.  All the mom and pops are SOL and now OB.  The corporates and sell outs in  the franchise big box biz are still open and treat most customers like shit.  The mom and pop kindness and home cooking from far away places have been attacked and are on fire.  You did see the riots last year, right Grace T?  WTF up!!!


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Mom and pop diner for the most part is no more Grace T.  I was at very popular eat places in Aliso Viejo.  All the mom and pops are SOL and now OB.  The corporates and sell outs in  the franchise big box biz are still open and treat most customers like shit.  The mom and pop kindness and home cooking from far away places have been attacked and are on fire.  You did see the riots last year, right Grace T?  WTF up!!!


Remember remember the 5th of November
The gunpowder treason and plot
I know of no reason 
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.


----------



## Grace T.

They really would prefer it if we mask forever to prevent the flu and common cold.....80% is funny....I don't even think dad4 is still at 80%.....even the vaccines with waning over time aren't at 80%...if that were true we'd be back to masks are more effective than vaccines.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456645731691925518


----------



## Bruddah IZ

lafalafa said:


> Another tool in the bag besides just vax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antiviral Covid pill 89% effective, Pfizer says - BBC News
> 
> 
> The company stopped clinical trials early because initial results for the drug were so positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk


Oh!  Two silver bullets now.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The world population will be 8 billion soon despite the 12,000 pandemics since 1978.


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> Oh!  Two silver bullets now.


Like I said, the difference is this one is Pfizer...bull in a China shop when it comes to development, regulatory control, approvals, manufacturing and distribution.

Big Pharma is like Squid Games (people have been bending over backwards saying it's an analogy for capitalism, for pre government society, for the male dominated patriarchy...it's not....it's an analogy for Big Pharma).  There's a pot of money there and Pfizer is the business executive guy that won't let anything stand in his way to get there.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> There you have it, all this word count on personality and not a mention of policy. You've made my point perfectly. Although, I don't know any free Men, when talking about other men, are so obsessed with popularity contests and use descriptions like "spoiled child" and "special kind of scary"..... Sounds a little wife-dominant puppeting to me.
> 
> Again, congrats on achieving a status where gas and food prices along with reckless foreign policy decisions don't hit home. But let's face it, this doesn't change my point that your wife probably mandated she fill out your mail-in ballot while you submissively massaged her bunions.


I'd step back for a moment and look at reality.  Had Trump not been an ahole at times there is a good chance Trump would still be President.  So character does matter.  Now you can blame that on voters who are "unmanly" are easily offended, or only care about personality, the media, etc.  However, Trump did nothing to help himself with certain unnecessary comments.   Yes, the media had it out for him, but why make their job easier?

One irony when you talk about toughness is Trump himself.  He is one of the thinnest skinned, easily offended individuals around.  I think you might  mistake his retaliatory insults as toughness, when in fact it is the opposite.  Much of his divisive rhetoric came as a result of him being thin-skinned.   You notice that Trump never said these insults to anyone's face....typically only when he had a favorable audience.  I believe that would fall under the category of "passive/aggressive".  I know the common belief is that Trump is a narcissist.  I disagree.  I think he has low self esteem that he tries to compensate for by being an a-hole.  I could be wrong here, but I've been around a number of successful people that would often raise themselves up by knocking others down. 

In defense of Trump, he had no tolerance for bureaucracy.  So he was brutal on bureaucrats, which I believe was warranted.  Anyone who has ever run a business, knows bureaucracy is the biggest obstacle to progress.   Trump was also brilliant with the use of leverage (in great contrast to Obama),  however, this was often portrayed as bullying by the media, and in some cases it did border on bullying.

Sorry, but you can't lay this all at the doorstep of personality voters.  Trump had very good policies, great compared to Obama and Biden, but he is not the prophet you make him out to be.

Nikki Haley 2024


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> .  I could be wrong here, but I've been around a number of successful people that would often raise themselves up by knocking others down.


Jordan Peterson's entire thesis about hyper successful people centers on that they are just overly geared towards being superdominant, obsessive and aggressive and therefore they have no qualms to knocking down others.  It doesn't apply to certain people who find themselves thrust there by happenstance (like the actor suddenly "discovered" working in the drugs store, or the rare politician that runs for conviction and just lucks out like the truck driver), but he argues it applies to most of he highest performers in the arts, sports, politics and most especially business.  They, for the most part, also tend to really be broken individuals as a result (as pointed out by Squid Games).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Jordan Peterson's entire thesis about hyper successful people centers on that they are just overly geared towards being superdominant, obsessive and aggressive and therefore they have no qualms to knocking down others.  It doesn't apply to certain people who find themselves thrust there by happenstance (like the actor suddenly "discovered" working in the drugs store, or the rare politician that runs for conviction and just lucks out like the truck driver), but he argues it applies to most of he highest performers in the arts, sports, politics and most especially business.  They, for the most part, also tend to really be broken individuals as a result (as pointed out by Squid Games).


I'm way out of my league here, and this is purely speculative, but I get the impression that he was always trying to impress his father, or be greater than him.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> You notice that Trump never said these insults to anyone's face....typically only when he had a favorable audience.


With the exception of the media at press conferences, when he could control the dialogue.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> It's so that he can make the argument it's valid under the interstate commerce clause.  Presumably, the argument goes, companies with 100 employees are large enough to impact, directly or indirectly, interstate commerce where a mom and pop diner of 5 employees might not.   Not passing on the merits of the argument....just why it's being done that way.
> 
> That's the cliff notes version.  The real in depth meat has to do with the commerce clause, Congressional powers delegation, the OSHA statute and chevron.


Lord almighty, you are the worst fake lawyer ever.  If they selected 100+ as the threshold minimum because anything less may not adequately impact interstate commerce, can you explain to me WTF OSHA applies to companies with 10 or more employees? Why the FLSA applies to any employee who regularly uses the freakin' telephone or contributes to making anything that will be sent out of state?  Why the janitor in a building where goods are produced for shipment out of state is covered, even if they aren't employed by the company making them? Why buying pencils through Amazon makes you subject to federal regulation under the ICC? Have you ever heard of Ollie's BBQ, like every single first year law student in America?

The reason it selected 100+ is addressed in the ETS itself, which any real lawyer would have read before spewing this utter nonsense.  Specifically, it is because "OSHA is confident that employers with 100 or more employees have the administrative capacity to implement the standard's requirements promptly, but is less confident that smaller employers can do so without undue disruption."  The standard specifically states that it anticipates more guidance in the future for small employers.

God you are so clueless for someone who claims to be a "constitutional scholar".  Have you ever held paying job as a lawyer?  Did you ever pass the bar?


----------



## lafalafa

LAUSD has started to remove student athletes from rosters who do not have vax





__





						LAUSD removing athletes from rosters who aren't fully vaccinated
					





					www.msn.com
				




So are LA county clubs going to care or enforce anything? Or should they?

The fast food industry...in and out seems like they are taking a pass on this.


----------



## watfly

lafalafa said:


> LAUSD has started to remove student athletes from rosters who do not have vax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LAUSD removing athletes from rosters who aren't fully vaccinated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So are LA county clubs going to care or enforce anything? Or should they?
> 
> The fast food industry...in and out seems like they are taking a pass on this.


Meanwhile the vaccinated, fat kid with weight induced asthma playing video games all day is probably more likely to catch and spread Covid to other students.

It's anyone's guess what LA County clubs will do, but they could come under pressure from schools or municipalities that provide their fields to enforce vaccination requirements.

If LA clubs are going to drop unvaccinated kids, I hope they do it soon because we have games coming up against LAG and LAFC. (I jest of course).


----------



## Grace T.

lafalafa said:


> LAUSD has started to remove student athletes from rosters who do not have vax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LAUSD removing athletes from rosters who aren't fully vaccinated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So are LA county clubs going to care or enforce anything? Or should they?
> 
> The fast food industry...in and out seems like they are taking a pass on this.


The fight right now in schools is all about the basketball season.  It's no wonder this is coming at the end of football season.  The assumption is we will have a winter wave and they are trying to get it to the place where they can spare the season for an indoor sport since the assumption is that LA County Health will shut it down if cases start to rise.

On the private school school end, Harvard Westlake and some of the others tried to push at the beginning of the year to mandate it for the private schools in LA (or they wouldn't play the non-vaxxed teams).  Notably Oaks and some of the Catholic schools said no so the movement feel apart.  It led to the bizarre situation where to go on campus parents from the team vaxxed schools need to be vaxxed but visiting school parents from other schools don't need to be vaxxed.  Now that the LA Public Schools are onboard, they are renewing the push to have it required from private school athletes as well.  Thats left the holdouts (who are also fighting the state mandate for when it kicks in) to make contingency plans for a separate league in the event their competition refuses to play.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> They really would prefer it if we mask forever to prevent the flu and common cold.....80% is funny....I don't even think dad4 is still at 80%.....even the vaccines with waning over time aren't at 80%...if that were true we'd be back to masks are more effective than vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456645731691925518


I kind of stopped estimating once it was clear that masks help, and we were only quibbling over how much.  For me, that is the end of the “should I wear a mask” argument.  Wearing a mask reduces overall covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.  Therefore we should all wear them.  

If you want to ask “*how much *do masks and vaccines help”, then you are deep into mathematical modeling and differential equations.   Or, more to the point, NIH and CDC are deep into mathematical modeling.  People here just post conclusions without ever acquiring the necessary background or doing the numeric work.  

After all, actually running the numbers is orders of magnitude more difficult than just running your mouth.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The fight right now in schools is all about the basketball season.  It's no wonder this is coming at the end of football season.  The assumption is we will have a winter wave and they are trying to get it to the place where they can spare the season for an indoor sport since the assumption is that LA County Health will shut it down if cases start to rise.
> 
> On the private school school end, Harvard Westlake and some of the others tried to push at the beginning of the year to mandate it for the private schools in LA (or they wouldn't play the non-vaxxed teams).  Notably Oaks and some of the Catholic schools said no so the movement feel apart.  It led to the bizarre situation where to go on campus parents from the team vaxxed schools need to be vaxxed but visiting school parents from other schools don't need to be vaxxed.  Now that the LA Public Schools are onboard, they are renewing the push to have it required from private school athletes as well.  Thats left the holdouts (who are also fighting the state mandate for when it kicks in) to make contingency plans for a separate league in the event their competition refuses to play.


Fortunately, San Diego and my daughters high school district aren't implementing LA type vaccination protocols.  Right now out of 17,058 students and 13 schools,  15 kids from 7 schools have Covid.  The vaccination rate in our area appears to be in the low 70% range. 73% specifically for our schools zip code.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Lord almighty, you are the worst fake lawyer ever.  If they selected 100+ as the threshold minimum because anything less may not adequately impact interstate commerce, can you explain to me WTF OSHA applies to companies with 10 or more employees? Why the FLSA applies to any employee who regularly uses the freakin' telephone or contributes to making anything that will be sent out of state?  Why the janitor in a building where goods are produced for shipment out of state is covered, even if they aren't employed by the company making them? Why buying pencils through Amazon makes you subject to federal regulation under the ICC? Have you ever heard of Ollie's BBQ, like every single first year law student in America?
> 
> The reason it selected 100+ is addressed in the ETS itself, which any real lawyer would have read before spewing this utter nonsense.  Specifically, it is because "OSHA is confident that employers with 100 or more employees have the administrative capacity to implement the standard's requirements promptly, but is less confident that smaller employers can do so without undue disruption."  The standard specifically states that it anticipates more guidance in the future for small employers.
> 
> God you are so clueless for someone who claims to be a "constitutional scholar".  Have you ever held paying job as a lawyer?  Did you ever pass the bar?


You don't happen to be the attorney for the armorer on that Alec Baldwin movie do you?  Just a gut instinct I have.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I kind of stopped estimating once it was clear that masks help, and we were only quibbling over how much.  For me, that is the end of the “should I wear a mask” argument.  Wearing a mask reduces overall covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.  Therefore we should all wear them.
> 
> If you want to ask “*how much *do masks and vaccines help”, then you are deep into mathematical modeling and differential equations.   Or, more to the point, NIH and CDC are deep into mathematical modeling.  People here just post conclusions without ever acquiring the necessary background or doing the numeric work.
> 
> After all, actually running the numbers is orders of magnitude more difficult than just running your mouth.


It's not 80%.  You don't need a complex model or math to know it's not 80%.  Even you weren't at 80% at your last positions.  Math helps determine precision.  It doesn't help justify fantasies.

It's also a horrible message to be implying mask forever when they are trying to convince people to vaxx the kids.  What's worse is it may give people false confidence that they don't need to vaxx if the masks are 80% effective.

For you even 5% is the end of the argument because you never do a cost/benefit analysis.  There are costs, particularly when it comes to masking kids.  Yesterday I was over the lunch hour on a walk with the dog I went to the bank a couple blocks down on Ventura Blvd.  Counted 17 masks on my side of the street.  So don't say there isn't any cost.  Remember when we had the freak outs about plastic bags and plastic straws?  Where the freak out now????


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> It's not 80%.  You don't need a complex model or math to know it's not 80%.  Even you weren't at 80% at your last positions.  Math helps determine precision.  It doesn't help justify fantasies.
> 
> It's also a horrible message to be implying mask forever when they are trying to convince people to vaxx the kids.  What's worse is it may give people false confidence that they don't need to vaxx if the masks are 80% effective.
> 
> For you even 5% is the end of the argument because you never do a cost/benefit analysis.  There are costs, particularly when it comes to masking kids.  Yesterday I was over the lunch hour on a walk with the dog I went to the bank a couple blocks down on Ventura Blvd.  Counted 17 masks on my side of the street.  So don't say there isn't any cost.  Remember when we had the freak outs about plastic bags and plastic straws?  Where the freak out now????


p.s. reason I count them is because the dog always tries to eat them.  It's how many times I have to stop to tell him no. Glad the crazy frenchman wasn't there to tell me I had to let the stupid dog eat the stupid mask.  It's gross.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Fortunately, San Diego and my daughters high school district aren't implementing LA type vaccination protocols. Right now out of 17,058 students and 13 schools, 15 kids from 7 schools have Covid. The vaccination rate in our area appears to be in the low 70% range. 73% specifically for our schools zip code.


You know what is even crazier? 

Last year when there was no vax kids were at school in AZ and guess what happened to the kids? Nothing. The vax rate was 0%.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> You know what is even crazier?
> 
> Last year when there was no vax kids were at school in AZ and guess what happened to the kids? Nothing. The vax rate was 0%.


Isn't that slightly disingenuous though, given that online learning was prevalent and mask mandates in place for in person, at least in the school districts I'm familiar with. So does that testify for the effectiveness of masks ?


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Isn't that slightly disingenuous though, given that online learning was prevalent and mask mandates in place for in person, at least in the school districts I'm familiar with. So does that testify for the effectiveness of masks ?


Maybe so, but its more of a testament to the fact that in-person learning was perfectly safe and online "learning" was completely unnecessary and done out of irrational fear, and in some districts in part because of politics.

Not sure how you differentiate between the effects of masks vs. children not being good hosts or transmitters of the virus.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It's not 80%.  You don't need a complex model or math to know it's not 80%.  Even you weren't at 80% at your last positions.  Math helps determine precision.  It doesn't help justify fantasies.
> 
> It's also a horrible message to be implying mask forever when they are trying to convince people to vaxx the kids.  What's worse is it may give people false confidence that they don't need to vaxx if the masks are 80% effective.
> 
> For you even 5% is the end of the argument because you never do a cost/benefit analysis.  There are costs, particularly when it comes to masking kids.  Yesterday I was over the lunch hour on a walk with the dog I went to the bank a couple blocks down on Ventura Blvd.  Counted 17 masks on my side of the street.  So don't say there isn't any cost.  Remember when we had the freak outs about plastic bags and plastic straws?  Where the freak out now????


I worry less about individual protection than the effect on overall transmission.   Can we get R<1, using things that are not too disruptive.

Best estimate I have is that covid can’t grow in a masked, vaccinated population.  It can spread, but numbers decline because R is less than 1.   

For me, I don’t find masks and vaccines all that disruptive.   If we still needed to close major parts of the economy and education system, the decision would be harder.  But the evidence so far is that masks and vaccines are enough to push R below 1, if all of us use them.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> You don't happen to be the attorney for the armorer on that Alec Baldwin movie do you?  Just a gut instinct I have.


The only ones making up crap are the armorer's attorney and the strict constructionist/wannabe constitutional scholar.  But I can see how quoting language right out of the regulation is offensive to you, since you're one of those people who is going to believe what they want to believe, instead of the truth.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> The only ones making up crap are the armorer's attorney and the strict constructionist/wannabe constitutional scholar.  But I can see how quoting language right out of the regulation is offensive to you, since you're one of those people who is going to believe what they want to believe, instead of the truth.


No worries.  I was just going to give you a heads up that if you were the armorer's attorney that you might want to make sure that your paid up on your malpractice insurance.  Since your so knowledgeable about the law is it that hard to find a decent attorney in Hollywood?  The assistant director's attorney isn't any better.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I worry less about individual protection than the effect on overall transmission.   Can we get R<1, using things that are not too disruptive.
> 
> Best estimate I have is that covid can’t grow in a masked, vaccinated population.  It can spread, but numbers decline because R is less than 1.
> 
> For me, I don’t find masks and vaccines all that disruptive.   If we still needed to close major parts of the economy and education system, the decision would be harder.  But the evidence so far is that masks and vaccines are enough to push R below 1, if all of us use them.


I don't know why we have to worry about transmission if all the vulnerable have been offered the opportunity to have a vaccine.

Your best estimate is belied by what's happening in Oregon, Scotland and Singapore.  Even in your bay area you've moved up in tiers.  But we really don't have enough data yet, I concede, to know this.  The key fact, as we discussed, is what is the breakthrough rate and does that rate increase over time.

If the test is are masks "disruptive" then yes they are at least to a portion of the population: autistic, ADHD, young children learning to speak and read, the deaf, people with claustrophobic conditions, children with other learning issues.  There are other costs as well.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...wait, what? meh, immunity/protection... potato/patato...uuuh, I'm sure government has a good reason...now shut up sheep and quit asking questions... SQUIRREL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Emails: Our Definition of Vaccine is "Problematic"
> 
> 
> CDC: Problematic Vaccine? No, Problematic Definition of Vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> technofog.substack.com


Am I the only one who winces when he hears the word, "problematic"?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Am I the only one who winces when he hears the word, "problematic"?


"problematic" aka were facing a total cluster f$#k and we're not sure how to mitigate it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> There you have it, all this word count on personality and not a mention of policy. You've made my point perfectly. Although, I don't know any free Men, when talking about other men, are so obsessed with popularity contests and use descriptions like "spoiled child" and "special kind of scary"..... Sounds a little wife-dominant puppeting to me.
> 
> Again, congrats on achieving a status where gas and food prices along with reckless foreign policy decisions don't hit home. But let's face it, this doesn't change my point that your wife probably mandated she fill out your mail-in ballot while you submissively massaged her bunions.


You have also made my point that policy doesn't matter a bit when we respond by marginalizing anyone who disagrees on anything. The electorate is at a point where this is accepted and encouraged by both "sides". I see this as a fundamental underlying issue, so I won't go down that road.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.
- ML King

One of my wife's favorite actresses 
You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than by what others say about him. 
- Audrey Hepburn

I'd write more but I need to get back to my wife's bunions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I don't know why we have to worry about transmission if all the vulnerable have been offered the opportunity to have a vaccine.
> 
> Your best estimate is belied by what's happening in Oregon, Scotland and Singapore.  Even in your bay area you've moved up in tiers.  But we really don't have enough data yet, I concede, to know this.  The key fact, as we discussed, is what is the breakthrough rate and does that rate increase over time.
> 
> If the test is are masks "disruptive" then yes they are at least to a portion of the population: autistic, ADHD, young children learning to speak and read, the deaf, people with claustrophobic conditions, children with other learning issues.  There are other costs as well.


Why worry about cases when we all have been offerred vaccines?  Because some people, like Colin Powell or Watfly’s wife’s uncle, are still vulnerable even after vaccination.

My county is only 85% vaccinated for 12+.  The other 15% are not fully vaccinated.  The case rate among vaccinated is down to 5.1 per 100K, and flat.  The case rate among unvaccinated is worse, currently at 28.3 per 100K and growing.

In other words, covid is not growing among our masked and vaccinated population.  Covid is growing among our unvaccinated population.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why worry about cases when we all have been offerred vaccines?  Because some people, like Colin Powell or Watfly’s wife’s uncle, are still vulnerable even after vaccination.
> 
> My county is only 85% vaccinated for 12+.  The other 15% are not fully vaccinated.  The case rate among vaccinated is down to 5.1 per 100K, and flat.  The case rate among unvaccinated is worse, currently at 28.3 per 100K and growing.
> 
> In other words, covid is not growing among our masked and vaccinated population.  Covid is growing among our unvaccinated population.


You don't even analyze what you write do you?: "COVID is growing among our unvaccinated population".  

time and time again you continue to refuse to do a cost/benefit analysis.  EVERY SINGLE FREAKING TIME despite it being laid out for you repeatedly.  You don't answer why someone who is deaf or a kid who is speech delayed in school or a kid who has missed out on 2 years of a regular childhood needs to sacrifice to save Colin Powell, who has led a very full life and had a myriad of other health concerns.  Concerned about grandma?  Get them their booster, don't see them without getting tested, offer to do their grocery shopping and pharmacy shopping, have them wear their N95, and meet them outdoors.  And I have skin in this game and carefully practice what I preach (Arizona tournament...cough cough cough).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Why worry about cases when we all have been offerred vaccines?  Because some people, like Colin Powell or Watfly’s wife’s uncle, are still vulnerable even after vaccination.


So is it your assumption that Colin Powell and my wife's uncle got the virus from an unvaccinated person?

I believe you're strategy fundamentally depends on reaching zero Covid cases, but correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So is it your assumption that Colin Powell and my wife's uncle got the virus from an unvaccinated person?
> 
> I believe you're strategy fundamentally depends on reaching zero Covid cases, but correct me if I'm wrong.


it's self-contradictory.  If they got it from an unvaccinated person, and it's growing in the unvaccinated population, why restrict the vaccinated?   But we know the vaccinated are passing it too.

His assumption is that if everyone is vaccinated + everyone is masked the thing either stabilizes at R1 or just below it, or drops so much that it ultimately disappears.  The big flaw in his thinking is that assuming arguendo masks were to work at 80%, 1) we are pretty sure vaccine immunity is dropping which means the herd immunity number is a whack a mole figure that keeps drifting away unless you are going to mandate boosters for everyone (and we don't know yet if boosters are like a chicken pox shot or like the flu shot), 2) mask don't help in indoor situations where people are in prolonged contact which means anyone working in person in close quarters is vulnerable, 3) people won't (short of employing an army of Karens to inform them) wear masks in private gatherings or stop having private gatherings for 2+ years and 4) with animals now catching it and deer and mink transmitting it, there is a zoonotic reserve to spread it.  The only real shot at herd immunity is if everyone gets it (and gets it quickly at one time) (except the vulnerable to the extent you can seal them up) whether vaxxed or taking their chances now but that is an unproven position since while we most of the data (the CDC propaganda piece notwithstanding) shows natural immunity > vaccine immunity, we don't know (especially if you had a mild case) if it is 100% immunity or enough to really create a long lasting herd immunity.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> No worries.  I was just going to give you a heads up that if you were the armorer's attorney that you might want to make sure that your paid up on your malpractice insurance.  Since your so knowledgeable about the law is it that hard to find a decent attorney in Hollywood?  The assistant director's attorney isn't any better.


Have you ever looked at bar exam questions?  In general, they present an ambiguous situation and you have to choose one side to argue.  Lawyers are thus screened for their ability to advance their clients' positions no matter how ludicrous their arguments are.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Have you ever looked at bar exam questions?  In general, they present an ambiguous situation and you have to choose one side to argue.  Lawyers are thus screened for their ability to advance their clients' positions no matter how ludicrous their arguments are.



Not true.  The California bar exam does not encourage you to argue one side or the other.  If you do, you will fail (though they sometimes do give a question argue one side or another....but that question usually has a right answer).  It is an issue spotting exam.  For example, on the 2021 test, it gives you a fact pattern and asks you what evidentiary objections could be raised or what remedies are available.  The other part of it is a multiple choice test asking basic black letter law questions.

The LSAT is illustrative too.  It's a reading comprehension test and logic test (at least when I took it...perfect score baby!)


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I'd step back for a moment and look at reality.  Had Trump not been an ahole at times there is a good chance Trump would still be President.  So character does matter.  Now you can blame that on voters who are "unmanly" are easily offended, or only care about personality, the media, etc.  However, Trump did nothing to help himself with certain unnecessary comments.   Yes, the media had it out for him, but why make their job easier?
> 
> One irony when you talk about toughness is Trump himself.  He is one of the thinnest skinned, easily offended individuals around.  I think you might  mistake his retaliatory insults as toughness, when in fact it is the opposite.  Much of his divisive rhetoric came as a result of him being thin-skinned.   You notice that Trump never said these insults to anyone's face....typically only when he had a favorable audience.  I believe that would fall under the category of "passive/aggressive".  I know the common belief is that Trump is a narcissist.  I disagree.  I think he has low self esteem that he tries to compensate for by being an a-hole.  I could be wrong here, but I've been around a number of successful people that would often raise themselves up by knocking others down.
> 
> In defense of Trump, he had no tolerance for bureaucracy.  So he was brutal on bureaucrats, which I believe was warranted.  Anyone who has ever run a business, knows bureaucracy is the biggest obstacle to progress.   Trump was also brilliant with the use of leverage (in great contrast to Obama),  however, this was often portrayed as bullying by the media, and in some cases it did border on bullying.
> 
> Sorry, but you can't lay this all at the doorstep of personality voters.  Trump had very good policies, great compared to Obama and Biden, but he is not the prophet you make him out to be.
> 
> Nikki Haley 2024


What! Now this is word count worthy. This has got to be a parody of the other post or you are delusional, but either way, this is a another sterling example of my point  - an emotional word salad all about personality and manners, although I’ll give credit for a general policy mention. But seriously, are you sure someone else didn't write this while you were busy massaging bunions?

Where to start......

How it started: *“Had Trump not been an ahole at times there is a good chance Trump would still be President.”*
How it ended: *“Sorry, but you can't lay this all at the doorstep of personality voters.”*
1) You really didn’t notice the contradiction?
2) Seriously? “ahole”, you’re addressing another Man, you can use asshole.

*“He is one of the thinnest skinned, easily offended individuals around.”*
1) What Men talk like this, especially to and about other Men?
2) Did you grow up with all older sisters?

*“I believe that would fall under the category of "passive/aggressive".*
1) See 1 & 2 above.

*“I think you might mistake his retaliatory insults as toughness, when in fact it is the opposite”*
1) You think I might mistake….no, allow me to remove any question for you – retaliatory insults ARE toughness.
2) If you are constantly called a racist Russian agent and your wife and kids receive a never ending barrage of vile insults…..your response would be what? “cut it out, you’re being passive/aggressive”

*“You notice that Trump never said these insults to anyone's face”*
1) Again, What! Were you in a coma during the Republican primary debates with, I forgot the total number of candidates,18 to 20ish, the presidential debates. and the historical number of presidential press conferences and encounters? ***Although I have no proof, I’m willing to bet if there were cameras behind closed doors…… We’d see the same.
2) Also, this one has me leaning away from parody and more towards delusional.

*“portrayed as bullying by the media, and in some cases it did border on bullying.”*
1) Again, no thoughts of contradiction passed through your cranium with this one?
2) Although I must admit, probably unbeknownst to you, but you hit comedy gold with this.

*“he is not the prophet you make him out to be.”*
1) "In reality" I can give two shits about Trump personally. All the emotionally driven personality/vulgarity/manners/mean tweets etc. etc. etc., only crosses my mind when I see it as a weakness in others. I measure a Man by his word, actions, and results..... based on that I put Trump up there with Reagan as one of the greatest presidents in my lifetime and found it easy to cast, and will again cast my vote for him, regardless of what my wife thinks or says.

Speaking of my wife, like you and many women, she focused on and struggled with the emotional personality judgments of Trump. But ultimately, being a first-generation immigrant, she intelligently and wisely understood the huge impact of elections beyond personalities, along with what was best for her family and country, making the choice obvious and easy.

As for me, having spent most of my adult life in the military and law enforcement and having felt and lived the actual consequences of elections, our binary choice is always logically obvious and easy.....It's the emotional illogical choices of others, that we are currently living through, that are hard to comprehend. But I believe the answer is somewhere within one of my favorite quotes:

“*You have never lived until you've almost died. For those who have fought for it, life has a flavor the protected shall never know.”*
— Guy De Maupassant


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So is it your assumption that Colin Powell and my wife's uncle got the virus from an unvaccinated person?
> 
> I believe you're strategy fundamentally depends on reaching zero Covid cases, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Not quite.   I believe that the chain of contagion that led to each new case contained some unmasked and unvaccinated people.  

The identity of the last person in each chain is not really the point.   The point is that, if more of us are masked and vaccinated, then covid will reach fewer vulnerable people.  The chain will break somewhere along the way.

Yes, I do believe that R<1 eventually leads to zero cases.  But it helps even without that effect.   Reducing R also leads to significantly fewer cases in the short to medium term.  R=.8 has about half as many cases as R=.9, for example.  This is true even if you are continually importing new cases from overseas, and therefore never get to zero.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Have you ever looked at bar exam questions?  In general, they present an ambiguous situation and you have to choose one side to argue.  Lawyers are thus screened for their ability to advance their clients' positions no matter how ludicrous their arguments are.


Ignoring whether this is true or not, if you going to advance your clients ludicrous position, at least attempt to do so convincingly without contradiction.  Seriously, check out their interview on the Today show, I promise you will a good chuckle out of it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> it's self-contradictory.  If they got it from an unvaccinated person, and it's growing in the unvaccinated population, why restrict the vaccinated?   But we know the vaccinated are passing it too.
> 
> His assumption is that if everyone is vaccinated + everyone is masked the thing either stabilizes at R1 or just below it, or drops so much that it ultimately disappears.  The big flaw in his thinking is that assuming arguendo masks were to work at 80%, 1) we are pretty sure vaccine immunity is dropping which means the herd immunity number is a whack a mole figure that keeps drifting away unless you are going to mandate boosters for everyone (and we don't know yet if boosters are like a chicken pox shot or like the flu shot), 2) mask don't help in indoor situations where people are in prolonged contact which means anyone working in person in close quarters is vulnerable, 3) people won't (short of employing an army of Karens to inform them) wear masks in private gatherings or stop having private gatherings for 2+ years and 4) with animals now catching it and deer and mink transmitting it, there is a zoonotic reserve to spread it.  The only real shot at herd immunity is if everyone gets it (and gets it quickly at one time) (except the vulnerable to the extent you can seal them up) whether vaxxed or taking their chances now but that is an unproven position since while we most of the data (the CDC propaganda piece notwithstanding) shows natural immunity > vaccine immunity, we don't know (especially if you had a mild case) if it is 100% immunity or enough to really create a long lasting herd immunity.


You’re trying to tell me what happens to long term extrapolation of the SIR model as you change R?

You don’t have even a third of the background you would need to make the claims in the above paragraph.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The chain will break somewhere along the way.


Somewhere....Science TM!

Again, you are neglecting any sort of cost benefit analysis or any drift in the vaccine immunity numbers.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re trying to tell me what happens to long term extrapolation of the SIR model as you change R?
> 
> You don’t have even a third of the background you would need to make the claims in the above paragraph.


No I'm just pointing out where your assumptions fail you.  That's where mathematical models often fail...inputs, and yours are flawed.  It's why, as we've discussed before, why the money generally doesn't trust people like you to make decisions like this (and why folks like you resent people like me put over you to review your work).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The identity of the last person in each chain is not really the point.   The point is that, if more of us are masked and vaccinated, then covid will reach fewer vulnerable people.  The chain will break somewhere along the way.


Yes, I agree that the last person on the chain is not really the point.  But the fact is there are vaccinated in the chain, so the vaccinated don't break the chain.  That's why its illogical to discriminate against the unvaccinated.  In some ways it would make more sense to discriminate against the medically vulnerable.  The 15 that were infected at the nursing home did nothing to break, or apparently to slow the chain.


----------



## MicPaPa

kickingandscreaming said:


> You have also made my point that policy doesn't matter a bit when we respond by marginalizing anyone who disagrees on anything. The electorate is at a point where this is accepted and encouraged by both "sides". I see this as a fundamental underlying issue, so I won't go down that road.
> 
> Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.
> - ML King
> 
> One of my wife's favorite actresses
> You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than by what others say about him.
> - Audrey Hepburn
> 
> I'd write more but I need to get back to my wife's bunions.


She wrote this, didn't she?


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> What! Now this is word count worthy. This has got to be a parody of the other post or you are delusional, but either way, this is a another sterling example of my point  - an emotional word salad all about personality and manners, although I’ll give credit for a general policy mention. But seriously, are you sure someone else didn't write this while you were busy massaging bunions?
> 
> Where to start......
> 
> How it started: *“Had Trump not been an ahole at times there is a good chance Trump would still be President.”*
> How it ended: *“Sorry, but you can't lay this all at the doorstep of personality voters.”*
> 1) You really didn’t notice the contradiction?
> 2) Seriously? “ahole”, you’re addressing another Man, you can use asshole.
> 
> *“He is one of the thinnest skinned, easily offended individuals around.”*
> 1) What Men talk like this, especially to and about other Men?
> 2) Did you grow up with all older sisters?
> 
> *“I believe that would fall under the category of "passive/aggressive".*
> 1) See 1 & 2 above.
> 
> *“I think you might mistake his retaliatory insults as toughness, when in fact it is the opposite”*
> 1) You think I might mistake….no, allow me to remove any question for you – retaliatory insults ARE toughness.
> 2) If you are constantly called a racist Russian agent and your wife and kids receive a never ending barrage of vile insults…..your response would be what? “cut it out, you’re being passive/aggressive”
> 
> *“You notice that Trump never said these insults to anyone's face”*
> 1) Again, What! Were you in a coma during the Republican primary debates with, I forgot the total number of candidates,18 to 20ish, the presidential debates. and the historical number of presidential press conferences and encounters? ***Although I have no proof, I’m willing to bet if there were cameras behind closed doors…… We’d see the same.
> 2) Also, this one has me leaning away from parody and more towards delusional.
> 
> *“portrayed as bullying by the media, and in some cases it did border on bullying.”*
> 1) Again, no thoughts of contradiction passed through your cranium with this one?
> 2) Although I must admit, probably unbeknownst to you, but you hit comedy gold with this.
> 
> *“he is not the prophet you make him out to be.”*
> 1) "In reality" I can give two shits about Trump personally. All the emotionally driven personality/vulgarity/manners/mean tweets etc. etc. etc., only crosses my mind when I see it as a weakness in others. I measure a Man by his word, actions, and results..... based on that I put Trump up there with Reagan as one of the greatest presidents in my lifetime and found it easy to cast, and will again cast my vote for him, regardless of what my wife thinks or says.
> 
> Speaking of my wife, like you and many women, she focused on and struggled with the emotional personality judgments of Trump. But ultimately, being a first-generation immigrant, she intelligently and wisely understood the huge impact of elections beyond personalities, along with what was best for her family and country, making the choice obvious and easy.
> 
> As for me, having spent most of my adult life in the military and law enforcement and having felt and lived the actual consequences of elections, our binary choice is always logically obvious and easy.....It's the emotional illogical choices of others, that we are currently living through, that are hard to comprehend. But I believe the answer is somewhere within one of my favorite quotes:
> 
> “*You have never lived until you've almost died. For those who have fought for it, life has a flavor the protected shall never know.”*
> — Guy De Maupassant


Hopefully you didn't pull any muscles puffing out your chest.  Not everyone can be a bad ass like you.

Character impacts effectiveness, that's just reality.   Scorched earth policy never works in the long term.  Were people too easily offended by Trump, 100%.  Are people too easily offended these days, 100%.  Does that mean that character doesn't matter to some degree, no.   Personally, I believe being offended is on the offended, and not the offender.  

Your last quote is quite ironic considering Trump never had much at risk as it was his lenders who primarily held the risk.  Not that that's not genius, lets just not pretend that he was some fucking warrior. 

That having been said, thank you for your service, both in the military and law enforcement.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Ignoring whether this is true or not, if you going to advance your clients ludicrous position, at least attempt to do so convincingly without contradiction.  Seriously, check out their interview on the Today show, I promise you will a good chuckle out of it.


I have a lot to say about this situation, but this is not the right thread.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Yes, I agree that the last person on the chain is not really the point.  But the fact is there are vaccinated in the chain, so the vaccinated don't break the chain.  That's why its illogical to discriminate against the unvaccinated.  In some ways it would make more sense to discriminate against the medically vulnerable.  The 15 that were infected at the nursing home did nothing to break, or apparently to slow the chain.


The vaccinated people in the chain are the weak links.  They don’t always break the chain.  But they do make it more likely to break.  And that’s the goal.

( Not sure how you get to the conclusion that “vaccinated don’t break the chain”.  At most, you can say “among chains that didn’t break, the vaccinated didn’t break the chain.”.   Phrased that way, you can see it doesn’t really say much.  )


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *Had Trump not been an ahole at times there is a good chance Trump would still be President.*


Let's say for argument sakes that t did what he said he would do back in early 2017.  Again, let me repeat: t said he and his administration #1 goal was to END human trafficking once and for all and punish all those involved.  Once he called his shot the Media, Hollywood and Russia Russia Russia came to town and FB lit up with hate and division for him and anyone who associates with him or believes in anything he believes in.  We all watched this shit show for two years.  Nothing can stop what is going to happen.  My point is sometimes you have to be an asshole to assholes who treat kids like like their doing now, making them wear a mask and take a chance with death and underlying health issues we know nothing about.  Maybe those involved also happen to be the cheaters liars?  WHO the heck knows.  Man, some of you really hate this guy t.  Quit watching Tel A Vision, quit eating meat, quit drink with the Spirits and get the off %^$# fence got goodness sakes.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Somewhere....Science TM!
> 
> Again, you are neglecting any sort of cost benefit analysis or any drift in the vaccine immunity numbers.


Drift in the immunity numbers?

I’d be happy to discuss what happens when R is a function of time.  You do not have the mathematical background necessary to have that discussion.  I can tell you that so long as time average R is bounded, or able to be bounded by booster shots, it really doesn’t change things.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Drift in the immunity numbers?
> 
> I’d be happy to discuss what happens when R is a function of time.  You do not have the mathematical background necessary to have that discussion.  I can tell you that so long as time average R is bounded, or able to be bounded by booster shots, it really doesn’t change things.


You don't even understand your own inputs.  I'm talking about the ability of the vaccine to prevent symptomatic infection (and therefore presumably transmission).  The data suggests that number is falling over time.  So without boosters/natural immunity, you would go from a population that has 80% resistance to infection to 0%.  Unless you mandate (quite possibly constant) boosters and/or natural immunity lasts and everyone catches it.

You are the one that keeps throwing around vaccination numbers whenever an example is brought up of an area masked and heavily vaxxed but still having outbreaks.  The point is that vaccination number is effectively being reduced on a day over day basis as time drifts forward.

I'm talking about your input (you keep talking about the R calculation) (and geez this sounds exactly like the conversations I used to have with the math/BA types at work).


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> You have also made my point that policy doesn't matter a bit when we respond by marginalizing anyone who disagrees on anything. The electorate is at a point where this is accepted and encouraged by both "sides". I see this as a fundamental underlying issue, so I won't go down that road.
> 
> Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.
> - ML King
> 
> One of my wife's favorite actresses
> You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than by what others say about him.
> - Audrey Hepburn
> 
> I'd write more but I need to get back to my wife's bunions.


Light is love and love has nothing to do with punishment.  If you dont get jab, no sex is a form of punishment.  No jab no job is horrible because with no job, no sex either because you will be a loser on the earth.  So the only way out is to roll your sleave up and two jabs for the rest of your life.  I will not live that way.  Good luck living that kind of life.  I bet you sure love your wife....lol


----------



## crush

I think I can fix the problem we have with some men not being a real man.  These me like their comfort way too much.  When man gets to0 comfortable, well then he takes his eyes of the prize, which is freedom.  Dude gets fat and lazy and then sells out to the highest bidder.  If the men in NorCal and NY get their act together and wtf up, we can win our freedom.  I can say right now no one is free under the vax rules and the threat of getting fired if you say no to injecting foreign mix by Wuhan lab Docs and Dr. Fraud and that fake dude Bill.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The vaccinated people in the chain are the weak links.  They don’t always break the chain.  But they do make it more likely to break.  And that’s the goal.


That's unproven, although at best the comparative weakness is not material and certainly not material enough to discriminate against the vaccinated.  For all we know unvaccinated healthy people and children are the weaker links.

You appear to be promoting a herd immunity theory, which I get, but we're way past the point of when we were first told we would achieve herd immunity.  We've also blown right past multiple turning points that were going to be the end the pandemic.  I have to say you're the eternal optimistic, despite being misled time after time by epidemiologists.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> She wrote this, didn't she?


No, she's out for at least 30 minutes after I finish with her bunions.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> No, she's out for at least 30 minutes after I finish with her bunions.


Are you sure you stand behind the great HRC has a better character then t bs?  The news keeps getting worse for this evil lady.  Responsible for so much death and has so much blood on her hands.  Just wait man.  Please at least be humble when I'm right again that t was the only one who could take these monsters out.  

*Gregg Jarrett: The Hillary Clinton crony behind the phony dossier identified in Durham indictment*
*The genesis of the smear against Trump came from Hillary herself as a strategy to distract from her own email scandal*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Light is love and love has nothing to do with punishment.  If you dont get jab, no sex is a form of punishment.  No jab no job is horrible because with no job, no sex either because you will be a loser on the earth.  So the only way out is to roll your sleave up and two jabs for the rest of your life.  I will not live that way.  Good luck living that kind of life.  I bet you sure love your wife....lol


Other than "I bet you sure love your wife", I have no idea what you are talking about. I got vaccinated before she did and I encouraged her to do so.



crush said:


> I think I can fix the problem we have with some men not being a real man.


So, old school "real man" from a vegetarian who was directed to do so by his wife? I don't know, @crush. That might get you kicked out of the club.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You don't even understand your own inputs.  I'm talking about the ability of the vaccine to prevent symptomatic infection (and therefore presumably transmission).  The data suggests that number is falling over time.  So without boosters/natural immunity, you would go from a population that has 80% resistance to infection to 0%.  Unless you mandate (quite possibly constant) boosters and/or natural immunity lasts and everyone catches it.
> 
> You are the one that keeps throwing around vaccination numbers whenever an example is brought up of an area masked and heavily vaxxed but still having outbreaks.  The point is that vaccination number is effectively being reduced on a day over day basis as time drifts forward.
> 
> I'm talking about your input (you keep talking about the R calculation) (and geez this sounds exactly like the conversations I used to have with the math/BA types at work).


That must drive them bonkers. 

That’s because you keep making assertions that are simply false, such as “if something is decreasing, then it must be decreasing to zero.”

Not true.  Not even remotely close to true.   Millions of things decrease without getting near zero.  The value of my car is decreasing, but not to zero.   The value will never drop below the value as scrap metal.   My grandmother‘s height was decreasing for the entire time I knew her.  But her height never got close to zero.  Temperature in Riyadh falls during autumn. Usually not to zero.

So you make your assertion, and there they are, patiently explaining that your numeric intuition is not nearly as strong as you think it is.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> There's a better doc that includes the Cuckoo's Nest, but I can't find it.


Yeah I’ve seen that documentary about the Nest somewhere on Prime.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> So much wrong in this:
> A. Not a conservative
> B. Charity is not policy
> C. Churches can be policy. Eg maybe the pope should tell the priests to preach vaccination. Again it’s a collective action
> D. But there’s a distinction between that and morality
> E. Dad4 seems more concerned with manners and morality than policy, which more often than not involves coercive force
> F. You also make the common liberal fallacy: something must be done…this is something…let’s do this. Do nothing is policy too.


Yes, yes, every man for himself, let’em die in the street.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's unproven, although at best the comparative weakness is not material and certainly not material enough to discriminate against the vaccinated.  For all we know unvaccinated healthy people and children are the weaker links.
> 
> You appear to be promoting a herd immunity theory, which I get, but we're way past the point of when we were first told we would achieve herd immunity.  We've also blown right past multiple turning points that were going to be the end the pandemic.  I have to say you're the eternal optimistic, despite being misled time after time by epidemiologists.


Sure.  But it doesn’t bug me as much.  As soon as I heard that Alpha and Delta had a higher R, I expected a higher herd immunity threshhold.  It was one surprise, not two.

I agree that it is annoying that R is super high at the same time as we have a partially effective vaccine.  As you’ve noted, it makes herd immunity hard to reach.   8 months ago, I would have hoped that we could hit herd immunity without masks and without needing to impose on the anti-vax folks.  

Unfortunately, the disease changed before we could get there.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Hopefully you didn't pull any muscles puffing out your chest.  Not everyone can be a bad ass like you.
> 
> Character impacts effectiveness, that's just reality.   Scorched earth policy never works in the long term.  Were people too easily offended by Trump, 100%.  Are people too easily offended these days, 100%.  Does that mean that character doesn't matter to some degree, no.   Personally, I believe being offended is on the offended, and not the offender.
> 
> Your last quote is quite ironic considering Trump never had much at risk as it was his lenders who primarily held the risk.  Not that that's not genius, lets just not pretend that he was some fucking warrior.
> 
> That having been said, thank you for your service, both in the military and law enforcement.


You’re overthinking, nothing to do with me or my chest. Rather, it’s about men fulfilling the role of being a Man.  I recommend Fearless, Jason Whitlock’s podcast as he nails this point, I would not do it justice.

Again, overthinking, the quote speaks to the protected.  Trump would make a terrible warrior, all presidents would, it’s his decisions on behalf of warriors that we trusted.  Unfortunately, the personality over policy lesson, as always, is learned hard way.

Enjoy the weekend.


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not quite.   I believe that the chain of contagion that led to each new case contained some unmasked and unvaccinated people.
> 
> The identity of the last person in each chain is not really the point.   The point is that, if more of us are masked and vaccinated, then covid will reach fewer vulnerable people.  The chain will break somewhere along the way.
> 
> Yes, I do believe that R<1 eventually leads to zero cases.  But it helps even without that effect.   Reducing R also leads to significantly fewer cases in the short to medium term.  R=.8 has about half as many cases as R=.9, for example.  This is true even if you are continually importing new cases from overseas, and therefore never get to zero.


You sound like a smart person and I get how you would get consumed by R. Using "R"  makes politicians and non epidemiologists  sound sciency.  It's really not very precise and rests on assumptions.  It really doesn't capture what's happening in a pandemic and can spike up and down when cases are low.  

 It's a good marker that can help guide mitigation efforts but it isn't as important as you make it out to be.   R doesn't guide  epidemiologists on how to manage virul outbreaks.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Yes, I agree that the last person on the chain is not really the point.  But the fact is there are vaccinated in the chain, so the vaccinated don't break the chain.  That's why its illogical to discriminate against the unvaccinated.  In some ways it would make more sense to discriminate against the medically vulnerable.  The 15 that were infected at the nursing home did nothing to break, or apparently to slow the chain.


There is almost no way of knowing how Colin Powell contracted the virus, especially since vaccinated peeps can transmit.  The virus is obviously circulating amongst the vaxxed.  

In Powell's case, if he didn't change the way he interacted with his surrounding, contracting the virus was always a possiblity.  He probably knew that and lived his life the best he could.  He was  vulnerable to any contagion, and he knew it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That must drive them bonkers.
> 
> That’s because you keep making assertions that are simply false, such as “if something is decreasing, then it must be decreasing to zero.”
> 
> Not true.  Not even remotely close to true.   Millions of things decrease without getting near zero.  The value of my car is decreasing, but not to zero.   The value will never drop below the value as scrap metal.   My grandmother‘s height was decreasing for the entire time I knew her.  But her height never got close to zero.  Temperature in Riyadh falls during autumn. Usually not to zero.
> 
> So you make your assertion, and there they are, patiently explaining that your numeric intuition is not nearly as strong as you think it is.


I’ll tell you the same thing as I told them. You are getting hung up on certain things like the r and zero.  If it drops over a year to 20% or less as some studies have suggested it might you get to the same place as zero

cut the bull and stop trying to throw up “math” in an attempt to distract from it. If your underlying assumptions and inputs are garbage so are your equations.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sure.  But it doesn’t bug me as much.  As soon as I heard that Alpha and Delta had a higher R, I expected a higher herd immunity threshhold.  It was one surprise, not two.
> 
> I agree that it is annoying that R is super high at the same time as we have a partially effective vaccine.  As you’ve noted, it makes herd immunity hard to reach.   8 months ago, I would have hoped that we could hit herd immunity without masks and without needing to impose on the anti-vax folks.
> 
> Unfortunately, the disease changed before we could get there.


Yet you keep making the same in the box thinking that assumes that threshold is a static number under 100%. Because vaccine immunity changes over time that number might be well over 100% and increasing on a day to day basis….in other words you might never get there (at least not without everyone getting infected and even then maybe not then)…at least we have you in the record now that you are still pursuing the fantasy of zero covid. Best case this fades into the background and new pharma mitigates harm. Worst case periodic mutations and outbreaks kill a bunch of elderlt every year


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I have a lot to say about this situation, but this is not the right thread.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’ll tell you the same thing as I told them. You are getting hung up on certain things like the r and zero.  If it drops over a year to 20% or less as some studies have suggested it might you get to the same place as zero
> 
> cut the bull and stop trying to throw up “math” in an attempt to distract from it. If your underlying assumptions and inputs are garbage so are your equations.


Those damned mathematicians, eh?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> You sound like a smart person and I get how you would get consumed by R. Using "R"  makes politicians and non epidemiologists  sound sciency.  It's really not very precise and rests on assumptions.  It really doesn't capture what's happening in a pandemic and can spike up and down when cases are low.
> 
> It's a good marker that can help guide mitigation efforts but it isn't as important as you make it out to be.   R doesn't guide  epidemiologists on how to manage virul outbreaks.


If you changed "precise" to "accurate" and "rest on assumptions" to "requires good quality input data" I think you'd better capture it.  The term itself has a well defined meaning within the field.  The variables that impact it are also straightforward, at least conceptually.  They are, however, dynamic in nature and it can be difficult to get good population data, especially if things are changing quickly.  What is your basis for saying that it doesn't guide epidemiologists? Just curious.  Here is a write up that covers R from basic definitions and modeling variables, to real world measurements, to policy.



			https://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-covid-19-R-estimates.pdf


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Those damned mathematicians, eh?


“STOP THE COUNT!”


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> No, she's out for at least 30 minutes after I finish with her bunions.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


>


Nasty.  I have a pal who married into wealth.  His lady is 10 years older but he set for life.  He has to do a lot worse but he also is set for life, as long as he obeys her every word.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yet you keep making the same in the box thinking that assumes that threshold is a static number under 100%. Because vaccine immunity changes over time that number might be well over 100% and increasing on a day to day basis….in other words you might never get there (at least not without everyone getting infected and even then maybe not then)…at least we have you in the record now that you are still pursuing the fantasy of zero covid. Best case this fades into the background and new pharma mitigates harm. Worst case periodic mutations and outbreaks kill a bunch of elderlt every year


Over 100%?

What, exactly, would it mean for over 100% of people to be immune to covid-19?

6 out of 5 mathematicians are baffled by that one.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> “STOP THE COUNT!”


The Count cannot be stopped. Most of us, any impact we have had on the world will simply fade away.  But the Count, no.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Over 100%?
> 
> What, exactly, would it mean for over 100% of people to be immune to covid-19?
> 
> 6 out of 5 mathematicians are baffled by that one.


The volume knob goes to 11.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Over 100%?
> 
> What, exactly, would it mean for over 100% of people to be immune to covid-19?
> 
> 6 out of 5 mathematicians are baffled by that one.


100% immunization (boosters being a separate round of immunizations than the first two).  Again you aren’t understanding your own inputs. And what’s more I knew going in you weren’t going to understand it and was just waiting for you to duff it and you didn’t disappoint.

the question of natural immunity is separate since we know you e been neglecting it: as in you haven’t been able to explain why we are at 88% seroprevalence and still having outbreaks.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 100% immunization (boosters being a separate round of immunizations than the first two).  Again you aren’t understanding your own inputs. And what’s more I knew going in you weren’t going to understand it and was just waiting for you to duff it and you didn’t disappoint.
> 
> the question of natural immunity is separate since we know you e been neglecting it: as in you haven’t been able to explain why we are at 88% seroprevalence and still having outbreaks.


That is not what the herd immunity threshold means, Grace.  (My guess is that you know this, and are just arguing to avoid conceding the point.)

Read EvilGoalie's link.  It has a clear and nicely written explanation of the herd immunity threshold, among many other things.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That is not what the herd immunity threshold means, Grace.  (My guess is that you know this, and are just arguing to avoid conceding the point.)
> 
> Read EvilGoalie's link.  It has a clear and nicely written explanation of the herd immunity threshold, among many other things.


The herd immunity threshold is the mirror of the immunization rate (assuming we disregard for simplicity sake natural immunity). The herd immunity threshold is falling day over day because people are falling out of immunity because the vaccines effectiveness fades with time. So on day 120 you might have 86% of the population vaccinated but 82% of the population immune (just pulling numbers out of my ass now for simplicity). On day 160 you might have 92% of the pop vaccinated but if vaccine immunity has dropped due to time (again assuming no boosters and no natural immunity) only 70% of your population is immune. Herd immunity becomes a dragon you are chasing that you’ll never reach

again I knew you would duff your inputs. It’s why they don’t people like you in charge of stuff:  the heavy numbers guys can’t see the forest through the trees


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The volume knob goes to 11.


Sometimes it does. There’s no rule that says it must go to 10. The inside the box thinking is something stem guys can be famous for and why some orgs struggle with breaking that sort of thinking. One of the recommends that usually comes from consult firms to tech companies is to foster the out of the box though…nasa was great early on with it…it’s a hard culture though to foster among tech types particularly once industries or fields of study mature…academics being the worst unless they are in pioneer fields (my first year out of law school was in consulting…didn’t like it….too much firings…the two bobs were such a drag I’d be spending too much time at chachkies).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Sometimes it does. There’s no rule that says it must go to 10. The inside the box thinking is something stem guys can be famous for and why some orgs struggle with breaking that sort of thinking. One of the recommends that usually comes from consult firms to tech companies is to foster the out of the box though…nasa was great early on with it…it’s a hard culture though to foster among tech types particularly once industries or fields of study mature…academics being the worst unless they are in pioneer fields (my first year out of law school was in consulting…didn’t like it….too much firings…the two bobs were such a drag I’d be spending too much time at chachkies).


You're babbling.


----------



## espola




----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're babbling.


“Oh Magoo dear old chap you’ve done it again!”


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The herd immunity threshold is the mirror of the immunization rate (assuming we disregard for simplicity sake natural immunity). The herd immunity threshold is falling day over day because people are falling out of immunity because the vaccines effectiveness fades with time. So on day 120 you might have 86% of the population vaccinated but 82% of the population immune (just pulling numbers out of my ass now for simplicity). On day 160 you might have 92% of the pop vaccinated but if vaccine immunity has dropped due to time (again assuming no boosters and no natural immunity) only 70% of your population is immune. Herd immunity becomes a dragon you are chasing that you’ll never reach
> 
> *again I knew you would duff your inputs. It’s why they don’t people like you in charge of stuff*:  the heavy numbers guys can’t see the forest through the trees


So, you got the definition wrong.  Ok.  It happens.

Instead of reading the paper and getting your facts straight, you spend time here making personal attacks on other people.  As above.

If you want to think, read the paper and get back to us.  

If you just want to trade ad hominem attacks, go play with Golden Gate.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, you got the definition wrong.  Ok.  It happens.
> 
> Instead of reading the paper and getting your facts straight, you spend time here making personal attacks on other people.  As above.
> 
> If you want to think, read the paper and get back to us.
> 
> If you just want to trade ad hominem attacks, go play with Golden Gate.


Like I said I knew you’d get it wrong. You don’t understand your own inputs. It’s why your math is wrong.

ps you’ve gotten pretty good at dropping your own ads and then complaining when others come back at you


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Sometimes it does. There’s no rule that says it must go to 10. The inside the box thinking is something stem guys can be famous for and why some orgs struggle with breaking that sort of thinking. One of the recommends that usually comes from consult firms to tech companies is to foster the out of the box though…nasa was great early on with it…it’s a hard culture though to foster among tech types particularly once industries or fields of study mature…academics being the worst unless they are in pioneer fields (my first year out of law school was in consulting…didn’t like it….too much firings…the two bobs were such a drag I’d be spending too much time at chachkies).


I'm not a particularly hierarchical person, so I don't really follow you.  Way I see it, whatever 11 is, it's built into the box.  The box vibrates and 11 is transformed.  For a metaphorical computer, 11 must mean something in terms of something else.  That's unrelated to the box itself, indeterminate, and user defined. Won't know till you plug in and play.  I'm thinking about hitting that first Am power chord on My My Hey Hey, but YMMV.


----------



## Desert Hound

Long term studies are important.

We still don't know.









						Researchers Call for Halt on COVID-19 Vaccines for Pregnant Women After Re-analysis of CDC Study
					

Two researchers say countries should halt the administration of COVID-19 vaccines to pregnant and breastfeeding women after re-analyzing ...




					m.theepochtimes.com


----------



## crush

ED is real say's the media and some Docs.  Dude gets Covid 19 and notices, "things seem to be different."  My gosh, before Covid 19, 50% of men over 50 can't get it up.  Now it could be 75%.  This is the true epidemic, , moo!!!  I know the true issue but it's the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about.  This is all about scaring older men into being limp forever if no vax.


----------



## crush

BTW, I will not make satire about the cargo ships in Long Beach anymore and now I know the truth about why they can't enter our ports.  I also got word/heard the Seals just rescued 200+children who were slaves on one of the ships.  Praise God and 100% worthy of waiting for the right time to save them.  You will not see this story on CNN or Fox.  CNN is talking about t and his 2nd coup attempt.  This is a movie thriller were watching fellas and Grace T.


----------



## crush

*A neighbor we hope we never run into unless you live by Golden Gate or in Espola's Neighborhood.....lol.  Snitches as neighbor or mask force people are for the birds!!! 
Reminds me of Husker Du avatar neighbor dude yelling for sure. A Dad neighbor would be polite and ask me to kindly wear mask for the rest of my life and please get jabbed twice plus boosters forever or lose job and need to leave the state or live off the grid in a trailer so I dont bother anyone or worse, give them my illnesses that I dont have yet.  I so healthy I want everyone to know.  I did give up some things I thought were too hard to quit by I sure did and I now reaping rewards.  I'm doing the best ever and I feel better then I have ever. Lady luck is now on my side for a change.  With all the luck I have now, I can now be my true self and love me as I should have long ago.  Be HOT ((honest, open and transparent)) and the doors will open like none other.  
P.S. Make sure to have the key of love & light so you go in the right door.  TGIFFS!!  *


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Like I said, the difference is this one is Pfizer...bull in a China shop when it comes to development, regulatory control, approvals, manufacturing and distribution.
> 
> Big Pharma is like Squid Games (people have been bending over backwards saying it's an analogy for capitalism, for pre government society, for the male dominated patriarchy...it's not....it's an analogy for Big Pharma).  There's a pot of money there and Pfizer is the business executive guy that won't let anything stand in his way to get there.


Nor the Banks that they owe.  Can you say bailout?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"Masks are symbols of submission
Masks are the lurid fetish of power
Masks lead to the erasure of personhood
Masks promote a culture of fear 
Masks are deterrents of solidarity"

- Roberto Strongman, Assoc Prof of Black Studies, @ucsantabarbara


----------



## crush

Brilliant take Governor.  I'm thinking the same in my brain.  God help us and God, please kindly kick the fence sitters off their comfort perch.  Put some barbwire so no more sitting and only moving one way or another.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> "Masks are symbols of submission
> Masks are the lurid fetish of power
> Masks lead to the erasure of personhood
> Masks promote a culture of fear
> Masks are deterrents of solidarity"
> 
> - Roberto Strongman, Assoc Prof of Black Studies, @ucsantabarbara


Look at these people at Gen. Powell's funeral.  WTF up folks.  I told you symbolism will be their downfall.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Look at these people Gen. Powell's funeral.  WTF up folks.  I told you symbolism will be their downfall.
> 
> View attachment 12036


Novus Ordo Seclorum


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"The role of ritual, dogma and the inquisitions and pillorying of those who, questioning covid orthodoxies, commit the sin of blasphemy, all display a drive that is concomitant with the most brutal aspects of religions across the centuries." - Roberto Strongman


----------



## Bruddah IZ

"Blessed Anastácia, ..protect me from institutional retaliation as a result of questioning mask mandates. You who .. aid all who speak courageously in the face of censorship and silencing, cover me!" 
- Roberto Strongman


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The school closures will catapult wider race and income inequality into the next generation.  

Of the many egregious blunders the lockdowners and Dr. Fauci made during the pandemic, pushing to keep schools closed could be the single worst.— Jay Bhattacharya


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> View attachment 12034
> 
> *A neighbor we hope we never run into unless you live by Golden Gate or in Espola's Neighborhood.....lol.  Snitches as neighbor or mask force people are for the birds!!!
> Reminds me of Husker Du avatar neighbor dude yelling for sure. A Dad neighbor would be polite and ask me to kindly wear mask for the rest of my life and please get jabbed twice plus boosters forever or lose job and need to leave the state or live off the grid in a trailer so I dont bother anyone or worse, give them my illnesses that I dont have yet.  I so healthy I want everyone to know.  I did give up some things I thought were too hard to quit by I sure did and I now reaping rewards.  I'm doing the best ever and I feel better then I have ever. Lady luck is now on my side for a change.  With all the luck I have now, I can now be my true self and love me as I should have long ago.  Be HOT ((honest, open and transparent)) and the doors will open like none other.
> P.S. Make sure to have the key of love & light so you go in the right door.  TGIFFS!!  *


Glad you at least gave me credit for politeness.

Have a great weekend.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Glad you at least gave me credit for politeness.
> 
> Have a great weekend.


You have a great weekend too sir.


----------



## crush

No vax, no see Gramps.  No vax, no job.  No vax, can;t play college ball.  No vax, no nba.  I can;t believe we've gone this far.  How far will they go?  Or, how far will they be allowed to go?   Vax=go back to normal.  It's all your folks.  Enjoy the lowest energy that will be known to man.  I'm heading over to the earth will the energy is love, fairness and honesty.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Maybe so, but its more of a testament to the fact that in-person learning was perfectly safe and online "learning" was completely unnecessary and done out of irrational fear, and in some districts in part because of politics.
> 
> Not sure how you differentiate between the effects of masks vs. children not being good hosts or transmitters of the virus.


My reply was more about how information is presented. He said there was no vax and kids in AZ were in school and they were fine. While that is true, my point was that most kids were not in (public) school for much/most of the school year (that I'm aware of) and those that were or when they were, had to wear masks. So you could just as easily say that kids in school with masks are fine, as that's factually correct. Or you could say, kids in school with masks when there's no vaccine are safe, as that's also true.

From observing my kids schools this year, elementary/MS with some MSers vaccinated and no masks seems low risk, with a small number of reported Covid cases. HS with the vast majority of the kids vaccinated has a much higher incidence of Covid cases, predominantly among the minority (i.e. those not vaccinated).


----------



## Brav520

| BREAKING: Joe Biden ‘broke wind’ infront of Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall.

‘It was long and loud and impossible to ignore. Camilla hasn’t stopped talking about it’

Via @MoS_Politics









						Camilla 'hasn't stopped talking about' hearing  President 'break wind'
					

President Biden produced a little natural gas of his own at the COP26 summit in Glasgow and it was audible enough to make the Duchess of Cornwall blush.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> | BREAKING: Joe Biden ‘broke wind’ infront of Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall.
> 
> ‘It was long and loud and impossible to ignore. Camilla hasn’t stopped talking about it’
> 
> Via @MoS_Politics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camilla 'hasn't stopped talking about' hearing  President 'break wind'
> 
> 
> President Biden produced a little natural gas of his own at the COP26 summit in Glasgow and it was audible enough to make the Duchess of Cornwall blush.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


I suppose keeping a "stiff upper lip" has its limits.

Reminds me of this story.

According to a classic Washington yarn, Ronald Reagan wasn’t even afraid to jest with the queen of England. In 1982, while he was on a horseback ride with the queen on the grounds of Windsor Castle, the queen’s horse is said to have had a bout of prolonged flatulence. The queen reportedly said, “Oh dear, Mr. President, I’m so sorry!” and Reagan supposedly replied, “Quite all right, Your Majesty. I thought it was the horse.”


----------



## crush

Where is everyone?  Husker Du?  Maps?  Espola?  Dad?  Oh, I forgot to fall back one hour.  TGIFS!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

"Telling my vaxxed sister she needs a 3rd booster!"
					

MIRRORED FROM: https://t.me/covidvaccineinjuries/3353   INVITE https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0    Removing Nano Poisoning - REV3 - PDF Document https://odysee.com/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0/Removing-Nan…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> You're fighting a battle against claims that no one is making.  No one is dying on the hill of personality or character.  You're the only one promoting personality vs policies as a binary decision.
> 
> Any mention of HRC makes me throw-up in my mouth.  Any mention of Trump makes me roll my eyes and shake my head.  Any mention of Biden makes me think WTF as I grasp my head with both hands worrying about where were going to end up in 39 months at this rate.
> 
> We're on the same team, just at different positions.


...I wasn't a big DT fan, but my family benefited considerably from his policies...probably even more if (R) leaders had guts.

...I am curious about this statement..."Any mention of Trump makes me roll my eyes and shake my head"... serious question, specifically which DT policies made you react that way?


----------



## met61

MicPaPa said:


> "Dude," clean your ears. Actually, that would be the sound of your mom's dentures being removed in preparation to receive the pair you recommended I grow.


...yikes!


----------



## met61

... Wow! dentures and bunions...this thread has taken a pretty hilarious detour from the vaccine...and more so the pandumbic. LOL!


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...I wasn't a big DT fan, but my family benefited considerably from his policies...probably even more if (R) leaders had guts.
> 
> ...I am curious about this statement..."Any mention of Trump makes me roll my eyes and shake my head"... serious question, specifically which DT policies made you react that way?


I really have no problem with his policies except maybe with the extent of his stimulus, but I understand he was between a rock and a hard place.

I didnt care for some of his rhetoric and self promotion.  Not a big Mccain fan but what he said was BS.  Guy was in a prisoner camp for years and Trump dodged the draft.  

Like I said I didnt care how thin skinned he was which he tried to compensate for by acting tough which he only did because he had the protection of a podium.  While all politicians pander, he took it to a level beyond most Dems.  Im agnostic so I dont care I just thought it was funny how he pretended to be so Christian.

Reagan could destroy people with his words but did it with intellect.  Trumps insults were something that would come out of a middle schoolers mouth.

Like I said it doesnt amount to more than an eyeroll for me.  I actually did get a chuckle from his abuse of the media.

I just think we can get Trump like policies without the childish rhetoric.


----------



## espola

Big Bird, Ted Cruz, etc --









						Recap: November 7, 2021
					

Republicans have declared war on Big Bird. If you need yet another  example of how utterly and absolutely insane what's left of the Grand Ol...




					www.stonekettle.com


----------



## watfly

This is incredibly disturbing.









						Over half of employees would report a coworker for violating vaccine mandates, study says
					

Most employees favor President Joe Biden's efforts to mandate COVID-19 vaccines for employees at large companies, a new study says.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> This is incredibly disturbing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over half of employees would report a coworker for violating vaccine mandates, study says
> 
> 
> Most employees favor President Joe Biden's efforts to mandate COVID-19 vaccines for employees at large companies, a new study says.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


I have called 911 to report apparently drunk drivers more than once.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This is incredibly disturbing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over half of employees would report a coworker for violating vaccine mandates, study says
> 
> 
> Most employees favor President Joe Biden's efforts to mandate COVID-19 vaccines for employees at large companies, a new study says.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


Not really surprising.

It's one thing to avoid vaccines and tell the truth about it.  Once you lie about it, you lose allies quickly.  

Remember that, if there is an outbreak, the whole office shuts down again.  The guy who lies about his vaccine status is putting everyone else's schedule at risk.

A different question gets a different answer.  Ask whether people think vaccine refusers should be allowed to stay on zoom, but not come into the office.   I bet that phrasing finds more sympathy.


----------



## espola

Teacher no longer at Anacapa Middle School after recorded diatribe makes national news
					

A teacher is no longer working at Anacapa Middle School in Ventura after video of politically charged comments made international news this week.



					www.vcstar.com


----------



## espola

Ouch!

(and Aaron is not likely to ever host Jeopardy! again)
(and he is losing sponsors)









						Terry Bradshaw, Fox NFL Sunday crew rip Aaron Rodgers for "lies" - Sports Illustrated
					

Terry Bradshaw and Michael Strahan had some choice words for Aaron Rodgers.




					www.si.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

"I agree with Aaron when he says, 'What I do with my body is a personal decision,'" Long said. "But it ceases to be a personal decision when you take part in being a part of a football team in a building with coaches, players, trainers...and you risk taking something home to your wife, children, grandchildren.”


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I really have no problem with his policies except maybe with the extent of his stimulus, but I understand he was between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> I didnt care for some of his rhetoric and self promotion.  Not a big Mccain fan but what he said was BS.  Guy was in a prisoner camp for years and Trump dodged the draft.
> 
> Like I said I didnt care how thin skinned he was which he tried to compensate for by acting tough which he only did because he had the protection of a podium.  While all politicians pander, he took it to a level beyond most Dems.  Im agnostic so I dont care I just thought it was funny how he pretended to be so Christian.
> 
> Reagan could destroy people with his words but did it with intellect.  Trumps insults were something that would come out of a middle schoolers mouth.
> 
> Like I said it doesnt amount to more than an eyeroll for me.  I actually did get a chuckle from his abuse of the media.
> 
> I just think we can get Trump like policies without the childish rhetoric.


So personality. Clowns.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Not really surprising.
> 
> It's one thing to avoid vaccines and tell the truth about it.  Once you lie about it, you lose allies quickly.
> 
> Remember that, if there is an outbreak, the whole office shuts down again.  The guy who lies about his vaccine status is putting everyone else's schedule at risk.
> 
> A different question gets a different answer.  Ask whether people think vaccine refusers should be allowed to stay on zoom, but not come into the office.   I bet that phrasing finds more sympathy.


As I mentioned before fear makes people do strange things.

Remember that the unvaccinated don't inherently spread covid.  The infected spread covid which can be the vaccinated or the unvaccinated.  Again people divert what our focus should be on by promoting the two camps of vaxx vs unvaxx.

Lets take a look how you would know someone is lying about their vaccination status:

1) They told you.  So then to tell your boss would a betrayal of the trust of your co-worker.
2) You snooped to find out.  How would you like that coworker to snoop on your private health business?
3) Someone else told you the coworker was unvaccinated.  Now to tell your boss would be rumor mongering.

Their are any number of reasons someone might be unvaccinated.  The individual may have other health issues that they don't want disclose that impacts there ability to get a vaccination.  You have no idea why they may not been truthful of their vaccination status, but you are perfectly comfortable putting their job at jeopardy without knowing their reasons.  That's F'ed up.  The unvaccinated person could also have been previously infected.  

We're not talking about someone committing a crime here, although I'm sure the left would love to criminalize not being vaccinated.  Mind your own business.  If your vaccinated don't worry about, and if your are worrying about it then you really don't trust vaccinations, in which case your Exhibit A for why they shouldn't be mandated.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> As I mentioned before fear makes people do strange things.
> 
> Remember that the unvaccinated don't inherently spread covid.  The infected spread covid which can be the vaccinated or the unvaccinated.  Again people divert what our focus should be on by promoting the two camps of vaxx vs unvaxx.
> 
> Lets take a look how you would know someone is lying about their vaccination status:
> 
> 1) They told you.  So then to tell your boss would a betrayal of the trust of your co-worker.
> 2) You snooped to find out.  How would you like that coworker to snoop on your private health business?
> 3) Someone else told you the coworker was unvaccinated.  Now to tell your boss would be rumor mongering.
> 
> Their are any number of reasons someone might be unvaccinated.  The individual may have other health issues that they don't want disclose that impacts there ability to get a vaccination.  You have no idea why they may not been truthful of their vaccination status, but you are perfectly comfortable putting their job at jeopardy without knowing their reasons.  That's F'ed up.  The unvaccinated person could also have been previously infected.
> 
> We're not talking about someone committing a crime here, although I'm sure the left would love to criminalize not being vaccinated.  Mind your own business.  If your vaccinated don't worry about, and if your are worrying about it then you really don't trust vaccinations, in which case your Exhibit A for why they shouldn't be mandated.


This is all a big show bro.  WTF up.  This is what happens when one sits his ass on the fence and plays Monday QB.  Stop it!  I watched AR first presser and he was full of you know what.  So guess what?  He's a liar and a actor, all in one.  This is why I dont watch sports.  It doesn't matter when you lie or what you lie about, a lie is a lie.  I smell a lot shit this morning.  We have a sitting President of this BK Corp of a Country that has a ds with a laptop from hell and a dd with a diary from hell.  I tell you what.  Go watch the movies and read ds emails to the "big guy" he calls pops on ds laptop and then I dare you to read the one page from dd diary that will and should make you sick.  This is about a bloodline that has been behaving like this for thousands of years.  BTW, the son makes $500,000 for a painting.  So Mr. Fence sitter, what's next from your perch?  Also, the supply chain cannot be fixed and were in for a Dark Dark Winter II.  When they start letting ships back in to unload chips for cars, the damage will already be done down stream.  You can;t fix it, only repair all the destruction of folks losing jobs, dying, losing their mom & pop businesses, their marriages, their high school life, their friends and their opportunity to survive and make a living.  So sad what folks do to try and gain control.  Probably only 200 people WHO control us all.  This was all put together in the Summer of 2001 and its was coined, "Dark Winter."


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> "I agree with Aaron when he says, 'What I do with my body is a personal decision,'" Long said. "But it ceases to be a personal decision when you take part in being a part of a football team in a building with coaches, players, trainers...and you risk taking something home to your wife, children, grandchildren.”


...as a vaxxed who got it from a vaxxed and took it home and passed it to a unvaxxed...this is ridiculous...and reveals how many morons, such as yourself, have lost the ability to critically think.


----------



## what-happened

met61 said:


> ...as a vaxxed who got it from a vaxxed and took it home and passed it to a unvaxxed...this is ridiculous...and reveals how many morons, such as yourself, have lost the ability to critically think.


The propaganda machine is strong.  It has no choice but to move forward with an irresponsible agenda that continues to be divisive. Makes it very difficult to have honest conversations with patients/people who should be vaccianted but refuse.  The opposite is also true - having an honest conversation as to why one may wait to get a booster or vaccinate someone who is very low risk.  The brainwashing on both sides of the equation  is bananas.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> The propaganda machine is strong.  It has no choice but to move forward with an irresponsible agenda that continues to be divisive. Makes it very difficult to have honest conversations with patients/people who should be vaccianted but refuse.  The opposite is also true - having an honest conversation as to why one may wait to get a booster or vaccinate someone who is very low risk.  The brainwashing on both sides of the equation  is bananas.


This is having huge impacts on kids and marriages as well.  My wife ran into a neighbor friend and she said, "Goodbye, were moving."  My wife said, "oh no."  "Yup" the neighbor said and "Steve and I are getting a divorce."  My wife is shocked but not really.  She offered a hug but she said none is needed and both are super ready for it.  Married 21 years but she is dome with Steve because?  Take a wild guess why she is moving and getting a divorce from Steve?  One high school Freshman who will now have a big change coming for her.  Down stream destruction is hard to measure when one lives in a bubble.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> As I mentioned before fear makes people do strange things.
> 
> Remember that the unvaccinated don't inherently spread covid.  The infected spread covid which can be the vaccinated or the unvaccinated.  Again people divert what our focus should be on by promoting the two camps of vaxx vs unvaxx.
> 
> Lets take a look how you would know someone is lying about their vaccination status:
> 
> 1) They told you.  So then to tell your boss would a betrayal of the trust of your co-worker.
> 2) You snooped to find out.  How would you like that coworker to snoop on your private health business?
> 3) Someone else told you the coworker was unvaccinated.  Now to tell your boss would be rumor mongering.
> 
> Their are any number of reasons someone might be unvaccinated.  The individual may have other health issues that they don't want disclose that impacts there ability to get a vaccination.  You have no idea why they may not been truthful of their vaccination status, but you are perfectly comfortable putting their job at jeopardy without knowing their reasons.  That's F'ed up.  The unvaccinated person could also have been previously infected.
> 
> We're not talking about someone committing a crime here, although I'm sure the left would love to criminalize not being vaccinated.  Mind your own business.  If your vaccinated don't worry about, and if your are worrying about it then you really don't trust vaccinations, in which case your Exhibit A for why they shouldn't be mandated.


You forgot one: 4) "But why can't I have both"

Strangely, policies hit a little harder than personality. Clowns.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

__





						The Morning: Covid gets even redder
					





					messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> If your vaccinated don't worry about, and if your are worrying about it then you really don't trust vaccinations, in which case your Exhibit A for why they shouldn't be mandated.


This is the logical way to think about it.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Morning: Covid gets even redder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com


... conclusion: Liberals are racist.

From the article..."Liberal areas, for their part, are home both to more busy international airports and more Americans who suffer the health consequences of racial discrimination."


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ... conclusion: Liberals are racist.
> 
> From the article..."Liberal areas, for their part, are home both to more busy international airports and more Americans who suffer the health consequences of racial discrimination."


They certainly are the ones that look at just about everything based on the color of your skin.  Unless you're a minority and a conservative then they only notice your politics.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting takes: masks and restrictions haven't done much in Scotland and Wales v. England...Sweden likely will still get a winter wave despite its high natural and vaxxed immunity....they don't know yet if a 3rd booster is enough to confer long lasting immunity...doesn't think they'll be a major wave in the UK even if cases rise.









						Dr Raghib Ali: No UK lockdown this Christmas
					

As we approach Winter, the threat of more lockdown-style restrictions has been re-appearing on the horizon. Just yesterday Health Secretary Sajid Javid tweeted that it was a “national mission” to get jabbed so that we “can get through Winter and enjoy Christmas” while Deputy Chief Medical...




					unherd.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

All of this is your fault, they say.

If you had just listened to the experts (I am trying to use that word with a straight face) and followed their mitigation measures, we could have conquered this thing long ago.

So the whole thing has been a morality play: your "bad behavior" is keeping this going, while my "good behavior" is keeping it in check.

What you're seeing below are two maps of the United States, side by side, separated by roughly three months, depicting the COVID cases that our opinion molders profess to be so concerned about. These maps are generated on a regular basis by the _New York Times_.










Well, how about that.

Remember when the map on the left was the fault of Ron DeSantis? Not to mention the vaccination rates of those states, which were likewise blamed (although Florida's vaccination numbers for seniors have been quite high).

And yet with zero changes in behavior, the map on the left became the map on the right.

Are we supposed to believe that everyone in the southeast suddenly started wearing masks at the same time, and everyone in the rest of the country stopped wearing them, also at the same time?

A _New York Times_reporter posted the chart on the right and asked how this was possible, given that the governors of those states had generally ignored "CDC guidelines."

I jokingly retweeted him with the comment, "He's so close to getting it."


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> As I mentioned before fear makes people do strange things.
> 
> Remember that the unvaccinated don't inherently spread covid.  The infected spread covid which can be the vaccinated or the unvaccinated.  Again people divert what our focus should be on by promoting the two camps of vaxx vs unvaxx.
> 
> Lets take a look how you would know someone is lying about their vaccination status:
> 
> 1) They told you.  So then to tell your boss would a betrayal of the trust of your co-worker.
> 2) You snooped to find out.  How would you like that coworker to snoop on your private health business?
> 3) Someone else told you the coworker was unvaccinated.  Now to tell your boss would be rumor mongering.
> 
> Their are any number of reasons someone might be unvaccinated.  The individual may have other health issues that they don't want disclose that impacts there ability to get a vaccination.  You have no idea why they may not been truthful of their vaccination status, but you are perfectly comfortable putting their job at jeopardy without knowing their reasons.  That's F'ed up.  The unvaccinated person could also have been previously infected.
> 
> We're not talking about someone committing a crime here, although I'm sure the left would love to criminalize not being vaccinated.  Mind your own business.  If your vaccinated don't worry about, and if your are worrying about it then you really don't trust vaccinations, in which case your Exhibit A for why they shouldn't be mandated.


Listen to the opinions on Aaron Rodgers.  There are not a lot of people defending his decision to lie about his immunization status.

Standing up for your convictions?  No problem.  Let me know how to work with you on zoom.

Lying to me about your immunization status because you think you know better than I do whether I or my family are at risk?  No help from me on that one.  Have a nice time talking to HR.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Listen to the opinions on Aaron Rodgers.  There are not a lot of people defending his decision to lie about his immunization status.
> 
> Standing up for your convictions?  No problem.  Let me know how to work with you on zoom.
> 
> Lying to me about your immunization status because you think you know better than I do whether I or my family are at risk?  No help from me on that one.  Have a nice time talking to HR.


Karma will hit you in the face dude.  Watch and then learn.  Your a sad little man who is either doing this on purpose or your dumb dumb.  Either way, good day sir.....


----------



## Grace T.

Our governor has been missing from the public eye for 11 days.  It's probably a benign explanation, but it's odd they won't say what's up.  His last appearance was getting his booster shot.









						Newsom’s wife posts, deletes tweet urging people to ‘stop hating’ as governor deals with 'family obligations'
					

Jennifer Siebel Newsom, the wife of California Gov. Gavin Newsom, took to Twitter late Sunday to post then delete a message urging people to “stop hating” while her husband has been out of the public eye since canceling plans to attend last week’s climate summit in Scotland.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Our governor has been missing from the public eye for 11 days.  It's probably a benign explanation, but it's odd they won't say what's up.  His last appearance was getting his booster shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newsom’s wife posts, deletes tweet urging people to ‘stop hating’ as governor deals with 'family obligations'
> 
> 
> Jennifer Siebel Newsom, the wife of California Gov. Gavin Newsom, took to Twitter late Sunday to post then delete a message urging people to “stop hating” while her husband has been out of the public eye since canceling plans to attend last week’s climate summit in Scotland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Prayers up the Governor.  I heard some conspiracy theories out there but no need to bring those up.  I 100% hope he's doing ok after his last booster shot.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Listen to the opinions on Aaron Rodgers.  There are not a lot of people defending his decision to lie about his immunization status.
> 
> Standing up for your convictions?  No problem.  Let me know how to work with you on zoom.
> 
> Lying to me about your immunization status because you think you know better than I do whether I or my family are at risk?  No help from me on that one.  Have a nice time talking to HR.


I don't condone him lying, but its not somebody else's responsibility to turn him in.  The issue is solely between he and his employer.

The ultimate act of selfishness is to jeopardize someone else's employment because of your irrational fear.  Politicians are trying to further divide our country along the lines of vaccination status and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't condone him lying, but its not somebody else's responsibility to turn him in.  The issue is solely between he and his employer.
> 
> The ultimate act of selfishness is to jeopardize someone else's employment because of your irrational fear.  Politicians are trying to further divide our country along the lines of vaccination status and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker.


Looks like you are trying to justify your own selfish attitude.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Listen to the opinions on Aaron Rodgers.  There are not a lot of people defending his decision to lie about his immunization status.
> 
> Standing up for your convictions?  No problem.  Let me know how to work with you on zoom.
> 
> Lying to me about your immunization status because you think you know better than I do whether I or my family are at risk?  No help from me on that one.  Have a nice time talking to HR.


“Lockdowns: the most regressive policy position held by so-called “progressives”.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Looks like you are trying to justify your own selfish attitude.


And you, your flat earther fear.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Interesting takes: masks and restrictions haven't done much in Scotland and Wales v. England...Sweden likely will still get a winter wave despite its high natural and vaxxed immunity....they don't know yet if a 3rd booster is enough to confer long lasting immunity...doesn't think they'll be a major wave in the UK even if cases rise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Raghib Ali: No UK lockdown this Christmas
> 
> 
> As we approach Winter, the threat of more lockdown-style restrictions has been re-appearing on the horizon. Just yesterday Health Secretary Sajid Javid tweeted that it was a “national mission” to get jabbed so that we “can get through Winter and enjoy Christmas” while Deputy Chief Medical...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


Not surprised.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Morning: Covid gets even redder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com


Democratic Health Care Anaylyst?  Really?  Should say democratic health care operative??


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Looks like you are trying to justify your own selfish attitude.


(I'm going to regret this).  How so?  I don't see how of staying out of someone else's business with no benefit to myself is selfish?  It's actually the opposite.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> (I'm going to regret this).  How so?  I don't see how of staying out of someone else's business with no benefit to myself is selfish?  It's actually the opposite.


It wasn't you that posted "you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker"?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> It wasn't you that posted "you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker"?


Now I get the jeopardy reference.  Way to answer again in the form of a question.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> It wasn't you that posted "you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker"?


Answering a question with a question (which you already know the answer to).  I give you credit for your consistency.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Answering a question with a question (which you already know the answer to).  I give you credit for your consistency.


It appears that you are not denying you made that offensive, selfish statement.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> It appears that you are not denying you made that offensive, selfish statement.


I'll pull the standard non-apology.  "I apologize if you were offended".

That statement could be described as a few things, but "selfish" is not one of them, but you already know that.


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457780202633715714


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> It appears that you are not denying you made that offensive, selfish statement.


It appears that you’re either, a politician, a fish, or?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Listen to the opinions on Aaron Rodgers.  There are not a lot of people defending his decision to lie about his immunization status.
> 
> Standing up for your convictions?  No problem.  Let me know how to work with you on zoom.
> 
> Lying to me about your immunization status because you think you know better than I do whether I or my family are at risk?  No help from me on that one.  Have a nice time talking to HR.


I don't think he lied to his team or the NFL, and was following the protocol for the unvaccinated (frequent testing, etc.).  He misled the public with his statement about being immunized,  although he used finger-quotes around the word in reference to a question about whether he was vaccinated.  Now it turns out that he was following a Joe Rogan-ivermectin-homeopathy "immunization" treatment.  In addition to the possible damage to his team's performance and his loved ones' health, his public reputation is damaged by the obvious deception.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'll pull the standard non-apology.  "I apologize if you were offended".
> 
> That statement could be described as a few things, but "selfish" is not one of them, but you already know that.


I'll let you stew in your own juices on that one.

Please continue.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I don't condone him lying, but its not somebody else's responsibility to turn him in. The issue is solely between he and his employer.


His personal medical situation really isn't anyone's business.

Do we require AIDS patients to disclose their status to coworkers? Friends? ETC?

In lovely CA....

Thanks to California Senate Bill 329, as of January 1, 2017, it is *no* longer a felony for people who are HIV-positive to have unprotected sex and not disclose their status.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> He misled the public with his statement about being immunized,


It isn't the publics business to know his medical status.


----------



## espola

From NY Times articcle on differing attitudes about vaccination --


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't the publics business to know his medical status.


They sure know now.


----------



## espola

And now Rodgers has penetrated even into philosophy humor (you have to read to the end to get the joke) --









						Philosophy News Network: Street Philosophy
					

A philosophy webcomic about the inevitable anguish of living a brief life in an absurd world. Also Jokes




					existentialcomics.com


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> From NY Times articcle on differing attitudes about vaccination --
> 
> View attachment 12041


Give it another couple of months and those lines will all be pretty close. The SE is the lowest region with cases per...while most of the rest of the country is rising.  It will all even out.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Give it another couple of months and those lines will all be pretty close. The SE is the lowest region with cases per...while most of the rest of the country is rising.  It will all even out.


If you look at the important measure- deaths, it won’t even out.  The worst ten states are averaging about 300 deaths per 100K residents.  The best ten are averaging about 100 deaths per 100K residents.   CA is in the middle, nearing 200.  AZ is fifth worst in the country.  They just passed New York.

Those standings are close to final.  The low death states won’t get many more deaths, because they all have high vaccine rates.  The high death states won’t get many more deaths, because they have high past infection rates.

But, if you look at total deaths per capita, the worse states will end up with three times as many deaths as the best ones.  That’s not “evening out”.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I don't think he lied to his team or the NFL, and was following the protocol for the unvaccinated (frequent testing, etc.).  He misled the public with his statement about being immunized,  although he used finger-quotes around the word in reference to a question about whether he was vaccinated.  Now it turns out that he was following a Joe Rogan-ivermectin-homeopathy "immunization" treatment.  In addition to the possible damage to his team's performance and his loved ones' health, his public reputation is damaged by the obvious deception.


You're babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If you look at the important measure- deaths, it won’t even out.  The worst ten states are averaging about 300 deaths per 100K residents.  The best ten are averaging about 100 deaths per 100K residents.   CA is in the middle, nearing 200.  AZ is fifth worst in the country.  They just passed New York.
> 
> Those standings are close to final.  The low death states won’t get many more deaths, because they all have high vaccine rates.  The high death states won’t get many more deaths, because they have high past infection rates.
> 
> But, if you look at total deaths per capita, the worse states will end up with three times as many deaths as the best ones.  That’s not “evening out”.


Your case hyping from day one, pre-vax, invalidates everything you just posted about vax immunity which is hitch hiking on natural immunity.  As far as deaths go, you're just hyping again.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> (you have to read to the end to get the joke) --


Lol! Not really.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't the publics business to know his medical status.


Unfortunately, the normalization of government tyranny is having a dulling effect on the masses.  So much so, that U.S. Citizens have become Nazi-ish in their moral posturing.  It takes rights away from individuals while giving confidence to the fearful.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> From NY Times articcle on differing attitudes about vaccination --
> 
> View attachment 12041


Speaking of the New York Times


All of this is your fault, they say.

If you had just listened to the experts (I am trying to use that word with a straight face) and followed their mitigation measures, we could have conquered this thing long ago.

So the whole thing has been a morality play: your "bad behavior" is keeping this going, while my "good behavior" is keeping it in check.

What you're seeing below are two maps of the United States, side by side, separated by roughly three months, depicting the COVID cases that our opinion molders profess to be so concerned about. These maps are generated on a regular basis by the _New York Times_.












Well, how about that.

Remember when the map on the left was the fault of Ron DeSantis? Not to mention the vaccination rates of those states, which were likewise blamed (although Florida's vaccination numbers for seniors have been quite high).

And yet with zero changes in behavior, the map on the left became the map on the right.

Are we supposed to believe that everyone in the southeast suddenly started wearing masks at the same time, and everyone in the rest of the country stopped wearing them, also at the same time?

A _New York Times_reporter posted the chart on the right and asked how this was possible, given that the governors of those states had generally ignored "CDC guidelines."

I jokingly retweeted him with the comment, "He's so close to getting it."


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> From NY Times articcle on differing attitudes about vaccination --
> 
> View attachment 12041


Upstanding journalism - democratic health care analyst.  Do you read the NYTs?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> If you look at the important measure- deaths, it won’t even out.  The worst ten states are averaging about 300 deaths per 100K residents.  The best ten are averaging about 100 deaths per 100K residents.   CA is in the middle, nearing 200.  AZ is fifth worst in the country.  They just passed New York.
> 
> Those standings are close to final.  The low death states won’t get many more deaths, because they all have high vaccine rates.  The high death states won’t get many more deaths, because they have high past infection rates.
> 
> But, if you look at total deaths per capita, the worse states will end up with three times as many deaths as the best ones.  That’s not “evening out”.


Why exactly is UT so much better off vs CA again? It didn't follow CA model. 

NM a state you highlighted has done far worse than CA. And yet they followed the CA model. And to be honest were less open this summer vs CA. 

UT is ranked 7th in cases per million over the course of this whole thing. 

I wonder if it has more to do with the health of the overall population instead of mandates that don't work? 

Why does CO with more cases have less deaths per million vs CA? 

You like to claim that your preferred solution is all mandates and that they work. The reality is location, health of a population plays the key role it appears in actual outcomes.

The reality is the virus is and will spread. It will affect the elderly and specifically those who are rather ill. Nothing was going to change that. 

The only thing that made a difference is that...
A) closure of schools was not a good deal for kids
B) killing off biz and hurting others is not good policy
C) printing trillions of dollars is not good policy vis a vis the debt, inflation, etc
D) our supply chain for many key items has been disrupted 
E) related to B we have hurt employment
F) etc

All of the above are not desirable outcomes. Especially in light of the fact that we were never going to stop the spread of the virus. People will look back later and say what fools we were to shutter everything. 

The best we could have hoped for is to isolate those at risk that wanted to be. Outside of that it is just a matter of when not if someone gets infected with the virus.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Upstanding journalism - democratic health care analyst.  Do you read the NYTs?


Numbers are numbers. What did they get wrong?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Numbers are numbers. What did they get wrong?


I don't have a problem with numbers.  I have a problem with labels.  Petty politics played by both sides is gross and doesn't do anything positive for public health.  Blood is on the hands of both parties.  It's what happens when politics become entangled with medicine.  

It's clear that you relish the partisan body count.


----------



## Desert Hound

And for a little humor...

_F. Joe Biden violated Royal Protocol by releasing gas in the presence of a Royal without first intoning the proper British augury (*"Would that this chance wind should speed the arrows of Agincourt"*)._

and this line in a British article is funny. 

_He is supposed to be committed to reducing emissions – but when President Joe Biden *produced a little natural gas of his own* at the COP26 summit, it was audible enough to make the Duchess of Cornwall blush.

An informed source has told The Mail on Sunday that Camilla was taken aback to hear Biden break wind as they made polite small talk at the global climate change gathering in Glasgow last week._
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10172959/Camilla-stopped-talking-hearing-President-break-wind-chat-Cop26-summit.html


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I don't have a problem with numbers.  I have a problem with labels.  Petty politics played by both sides is gross and doesn't do anything positive for public health.  Blood is on the hands of both parties.  It's what happens when politics become entangled with medicine.
> 
> It's clear that you relish the partisan body count.


Choices have consequences, whatever the reason for the choice.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Prayers up the Governor.  I heard some conspiracy theories out there but no need to bring those up.  I 100% hope he's doing ok after his last booster shot.


theories are fun









						Gavin Newsom was out of sight likely because he had Guillain-Barré from his booster shot
					

They said he had personal issues to attend to... like half his face was paralyzed? Our best guess from all the evidence is vaccine-induced Guillain-Barré kept him from public view for almost 2 weeks.




					stevekirsch.substack.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Why exactly is UT so much better off vs CA again? It didn't follow CA model.
> 
> NM a state you highlighted has done far worse than CA. And yet they followed the CA model. And to be honest were less open this summer vs CA.
> 
> UT is ranked 7th in cases per million over the course of this whole thing.
> 
> I wonder if it has more to do with the health of the overall population instead of mandates that don't work?
> 
> Why does CO with more cases have less deaths per million vs CA?
> 
> You like to claim that your preferred solution is all mandates and that they work. The reality is location, health of a population plays the key role it appears in actual outcomes.
> 
> The reality is the virus is and will spread. It will affect the elderly and specifically those who are rather ill. Nothing was going to change that.
> 
> The only thing that made a difference is that...
> A) closure of schools was not a good deal for kids
> B) killing off biz and hurting others is not good policy
> C) printing trillions of dollars is not good policy vis a vis the debt, inflation, etc
> D) our supply chain for many key items has been disrupted
> E) related to B we have hurt employment
> F) etc
> 
> All of the above are not desirable outcomes. Especially in light of the fact that we were never going to stop the spread of the virus. People will look back later and say what fools we were to shutter everything.
> 
> The best we could have hoped for is to isolate those at risk that wanted to be. Outside of that it is just a matter of when not if someone gets infected with the virus.


You seem to want to talk about every single SW state except Arizona.

Why is that?  No state pride?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You seem to want to talk about every single SW state except Arizona.
> 
> Why is that?  No state pride?


Sounds like the reverse of you and Los Angeles


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You seem to want to talk about every single SW state except Arizona.
> 
> Why is that?  No state pride?


We have an unusually high death rate on the reservations. People on the reservations have a history of not being terribly healthy. NM is another state that has significant deaths on reservations. Both states took vastly different approaches. And yet outcomes are not that different.

I am a big fan of AZ. Outside of a couple weeks at the beginning of the school yr last yr they were in school full time. Your kid and most in CA didn't have that luxury.

That right there is check and mate over CA. My kids didn't suffer getting stuck wasting a yr not going to school, hanging with friends in school, playing sports, both HS and club.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You seem to want to talk about every single SW state except Arizona.
> 
> Why is that?  No state pride?


Besides supply chain issues we now have started to experience inflation.

So again the people that can least afford a rise in prices get screwed.

Our gov response has created many many negative  consequences that seem to surprise only  those who have only a passing acquaintance with economics.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Besides supply chain issues we now have started to experience inflation.
> 
> So again the people that can least afford a rise in prices get screwed.
> 
> Our gov response has created many many negative  consequences that seem to surprise only  those who have only a passing acquaintance with economics.


Take a look at overall container shipping counts.  Port of LA is only about 2% below the peak of 2018.  





__





						Container Statistics | Port of Los Angeles
					

Provided statistic breakdowns include annual and monthly container counts (in TEUs1) dating back to 1995. Container counts for years 1980-1994 are provided in calendar year totals only.




					www.portoflosangeles.org
				




The supply chain issue is not that we stopped making and shipping stuff.   We’re still shipping the same amount of stuff we ever did.  

The change is that we are all trying to buy more stuff than usual.  Stuck at home with nothing to do but spend our stimulus checks on garbage from China.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> We have an unusually high death rate on the reservations. People on the reservations have a history of not being terribly healthy. NM is another state that has significant deaths on reservations. Both states took vastly different approaches. And yet outcomes are not that different.
> 
> I am a big fan of AZ. Outside of a couple weeks at the beginning of the school yr last yr they were in school full time. Your kid and most in CA didn't have that luxury.
> 
> That right there is check and mate over CA. My kids didn't suffer getting stuck wasting a yr not going to school, hanging with friends in school, playing sports, both HS and club.


...@dad4 sees coddling kids as a virtue...one of the main problems with the current generation.


----------



## crush

Athletes Around the World are Dropping Like Flies with Heart Problems
					

And the corporate media calls this a "mystery."  How many people ever heard of the word "myocarditis" prior to the COVID shots?  But don't blame it on the "vaccines." That would be politically incorrect.  https://healthimpactnews.com/2021/athl…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Sounds like the reverse of you and Los Angeles


Can’t talk LA with you guys.  Every time, you want to compare a high density city with the cal.20C variant against some low density place with the base C variant.  

So, you want to run a 1v1 comparison, but you refuse to acknowledge that you picked two places with two different diseases.  No discussion is possible under those terms.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of accepting risk...






						Learning about risks at the playground — Joanne Jacobs
					






					www.joannejacobs.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Take a look at overall container shipping counts.  Port of LA is only about 2% below the peak of 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Container Statistics | Port of Los Angeles
> 
> 
> Provided statistic breakdowns include annual and monthly container counts (in TEUs1) dating back to 1995. Container counts for years 1980-1994 are provided in calendar year totals only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.portoflosangeles.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The supply chain issue is not that we stopped making and shipping stuff.   We’re still shipping the same amount of stuff we ever did.
> 
> The change is that we are all trying to buy more stuff than usual.  Stuck at home with nothing to do but spend our stimulus checks on garbage from China.


If you attribute supply chain issues to people buying stuff when sitting at home.. I don't know where to begin.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Can’t talk LA with you guys.  Every time, you want to compare a high density city with the cal.20C variant against some low density place with the base C variant.
> 
> So, you want to run a 1v1 comparison, but you refuse to acknowledge that you picked two places with two different diseases.  No discussion is possible under those terms.


Ie, “I don’t want talk about Los Angeles because it undermines my idea we can control the virus with masks and shutting indoor dining.  I want to talk about Arizona”.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ie, “I don’t want talk about Los Angeles because it undermines my idea we can control the virus with masks and shutting indoor dining.  I want to talk about Arizona”.


If you only want to talk LA, I could easily make the case that the Bay Area had lower deaths last winter because San Jose and SF had better mask compliance than LA. 

But that argument would be bull crap, because SF had a different variant than LA.  We had the easy variant and you had the hard one.  

Comparing disease A against disease B just isn't valid.  It's invalid if I do it, and it's invalid if you do it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you only want to talk LA, I could easily make the case that the Bay Area had lower deaths last winter because San Jose and SF had better mask compliance than LA.
> 
> But that argument would be bull crap, because SF had a different variant than LA.  We had the easy variant and you had the hard one.
> 
> Comparing disease A against disease B just isn't valid.  It's invalid if I do it, and it's invalid if you do it.


Yet you constantly trot out Arizona rather than take your own advice. ^\_(;?)_/^


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Choices have consequences, whatever the reason for the choice.


Deep thoughts by Jack Handy?


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> theories are fun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gavin Newsom was out of sight likely because he had Guillain-Barré from his booster shot
> 
> 
> They said he had personal issues to attend to... like half his face was paralyzed? Our best guess from all the evidence is vaccine-induced Guillain-Barré kept him from public view for almost 2 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stevekirsch.substack.com


It happens..


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yet you constantly trot out Arizona rather than take your own advice. ^\_(;?)_/^


Did Arizona have a different variant than other western states?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Take a look at overall container shipping counts.  Port of LA is only about 2% below the peak of 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Container Statistics | Port of Los Angeles
> 
> 
> Provided statistic breakdowns include annual and monthly container counts (in TEUs1) dating back to 1995. Container counts for years 1980-1994 are provided in calendar year totals only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.portoflosangeles.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The supply chain issue is not that we stopped making and shipping stuff.   We’re still shipping the same amount of stuff we ever did.
> 
> The change is that we are all trying to buy more stuff than usual.  Stuck at home with nothing to do but spend our stimulus checks on garbage from China.


It would be interesting to see what is being bought at a higher rate, or at the same rate but in short supply for additional demand. However, I believe the supply and sales of new cars are down due to insufficient supply of computer chips.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> It would be interesting to see what is being bought at a higher rate, or at the same rate but in short supply for additional demand. However, I believe the supply and sales of new cars are down due to insufficient supply of computer chips.


That's from a manufacturing problem at the chip-maker factories, not a shipping problem.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That's from a manufacturing problem at the chip-maker factories, not a shipping problem.


And? I didn't say anything about a shipping problem but there is a supply problem. @Desert Hound didn't say anything about a shipping problem either. @dad4 used the shipping container processing to show that we aren't really shipping that much / any less, indicating the supply issue is due to an increase in demand and not a decrease in supply. However, that's not the case with cars. Keeping you up to speed is no easy task.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It would be interesting to see what is being bought at a higher rate, or at the same rate but in short supply for additional demand. However, I believe the supply and sales of new cars are down due to insufficient supply of computer chips.


Insufficient supply of total semiconductors, or insufficient orders of some specific chips?  I thought it was the second.  

Some of the chip shortage is also an increase in demand as well.  Everyone simultaneously upgrading their home computer setups certainly didn’t help.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> And? I didn't say anything about a shipping problem but there is a supply problem. @Desert Hound didn't say anything about a shipping problem either. @dad4 used the shipping container processing to show that we aren't really shipping that much / any less, indicating the supply issue is due to an increase in demand and not a decrease in supply. However, that's not the case with cars. Keeping you up to speed is no easy task.


The computer chip problem is due to a decrease in supply caused by many factors, and a shift in manufacturing strategies caused in part by an early decision by US car manufacturers to cancel pending orders of the chips they needed because they incorrectly predicted a long-term hit to the economy (and thus car sales) that didn't happen.  

From https://www.popsci.com/technology/global-chip-shortage/ --

_As the world shut down because of the COVID-19 pandemic, many factories closed with it, making the supplies needed for chip manufacturing unavailable for months. Increased demand for consumer electronics caused shifts that rippled up the supply chain. Orders began to pile up as manufacturers struggled to create enough chips to meet the new levels of demand. A backlog began to grow and grow and grow.

Bad decisions by the auto industry also added to the shortage. When COVID started, many companies canceled their orders for chips because they assumed the economy was about to take a lengthy hit, says Lewis. Car companies in particular cancelled orders, so chip companies switched to making chips for consumer products, attempting to meet the explosive demand caused by the pandemic. Having retooled their plants to make chips for consumer goods instead of cars, a shortage of car chips ensued.

There aren’t many chip manufacturing plants in the world, and the few that were running during the pandemic were subject to a series of unlucky weather events that delayed the manufacturing process further. Japan’s Renesas plant, which creates almost one-third of the chips used in cars around the world, was severely damaged by a fire, while winter storms in Texas forced some of America’s only chip plants to halt production. Producing these chips also requires a lot of water, and severe drought in Taiwan has also __affected production._


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Did Arizona have a different variant than other western states?


You say different variant and density

He says different population (like snowbirds and native Americans)

you are both doing the same thing…distinguishing.  You can argue his is worse than yours or not valid but you’ve never engaged in the merits.  You are doing the exact same thing with Los Angeles that he is doing in Arizona (which is perfectly valid thing to do) but the difference is you keep trying to take the moral high ground and he doesn’t.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The computer chip problem is due to a decrease in supply caused by many factors, and a shift in manufacturing strategies caused in part by an early decision by US car manufacturers to cancel pending orders of the chips they needed because they incorrectly predicted a long-term hit to the economy (and thus car sales) that didn't happen.
> 
> From https://www.popsci.com/technology/global-chip-shortage/ --
> 
> _As the world shut down because of the COVID-19 pandemic, many factories closed with it, making the supplies needed for chip manufacturing unavailable for months. Increased demand for consumer electronics caused shifts that rippled up the supply chain. Orders began to pile up as manufacturers struggled to create enough chips to meet the new levels of demand. A backlog began to grow and grow and grow.
> 
> Bad decisions by the auto industry also added to the shortage. When COVID started, many companies canceled their orders for chips because they assumed the economy was about to take a lengthy hit, says Lewis. Car companies in particular cancelled orders, so chip companies switched to making chips for consumer products, attempting to meet the explosive demand caused by the pandemic. Having retooled their plants to make chips for consumer goods instead of cars, a shortage of car chips ensued.
> 
> There aren’t many chip manufacturing plants in the world, and the few that were running during the pandemic were subject to a series of unlucky weather events that delayed the manufacturing process further. Japan’s Renesas plant, which creates almost one-third of the chips used in cars around the world, was severely damaged by a fire, while winter storms in Texas forced some of America’s only chip plants to halt production. Producing these chips also requires a lot of water, and severe drought in Taiwan has also __affected production._


False!!!


----------



## crush

Here is what's going on now folks.  We are now entering Covid Season.  The Flu was hijacked and replaced FYI.  Poor flu, never had a chance and for sure didnt see this coming.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You say different variant and density
> 
> He says different population (like snowbirds and native Americans)
> 
> you are both doing the same thing…distinguishing.  You can argue his is worse than yours or not valid but you’ve never engaged in the merits.  You are doing the exact same thing with Los Angeles that he is doing in Arizona (which is perfectly valid thing to do) but the difference is you keep trying to take the moral high ground and he doesn’t.


No need to contest it.  Hound has a valid point on elderly demographics for FL and NV.

I suspect NY, MA, and CA look a little better than they really are because of the number of people who retire out of state.  I’d need numbers to say how much.

I don’t believe Hound has a point on native American reservations.  Apache and Navajo are just too small in population to explain the overall state strend.

And snowbirds cuts against him.  You can’t blame out of town people for cases with one breath and ask for restaurants, bars, and hotels to stay open with the next.  Where does he think the snowbirds were spreading it?  Outdoors?  Or at the bar in the evening?


----------



## what-happened

Factbox-Countries respond to heart inflammation risk from mRNA shots
					

Europe's drug regulator said in July it had found a possible link between a very rare inflammatory heart condition and COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna.  However, the benefits of mRNA shots in preventing COVID-19 continue to outweigh the risks, European and U.S. regulators and...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Pfizer in charge.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> No need to contest it.  Hound has a valid point on elderly demographics for FL and NV.
> 
> I suspect NY, MA, and CA look a little better than they really are because of the number of people who retire out of state.  I’d need numbers to say how much.
> 
> I don’t believe Hound has a point on native American reservations.  Apache and Navajo are just too small in population to explain the overall state strend.
> 
> And snowbirds cuts against him.  You can’t blame out of town people for cases with one breath and ask for restaurants, bars, and hotels to stay open with the next.  Where does he think the snowbirds were spreading it?  Outdoors?  Or at the bar in the evening?


My wife and I spoke with a Native American lady in Oklahoma and she told us that the poor Native American tribes were being offered $1000 to take jab.  I wake my wife up if I need to to double check on my information.  I think it was $1000 per family member.  She was so sad because the poor Natives felt desperate and she said most took the folks up on the $1K each.  Also, regarding the AZ  cause of death by or because of Covid or by no vax or vax death cause.  Crush has two cents worth of information.  I think Husker and Golden Gate are looking to have me removed by Dom. My One Cent-  Lot's of people have moved from California to AZ the last two years and the last 40 years.  My Two Cent-  My neighbor's pal had a heart attack last week and died in Scottsdale.  He moved from OC to AZ last year.  The death is ruled AZ death when the fact is the dude who died lived in Cali his whole life.  This is what happens when you play math games with death.  It's a sick way to wake up and play games like that.


----------



## Desert Hound

This photo reminds me of gov responses/measures to covid.


----------



## crush

I dedicate this song to all fence sitters and those Comfortably Numb.  We're waiting for you btw.  Love is patient and love is kind.  Peace train is waiting and will leave soon but love is patient so please hurry up.  Choo Choo, all aboard to those who want truth peace.  No way you have true peace without honesty, openness and transparency for all to see what was going on behind closed doors.  We will all see with our own eyes the truth and our ears will hear the truth.  Listen to Pink Flyod and read the lyrics.  Music will help heal your souls.  I know what else will heal your soul but many of you are not ready for the truth yet.


----------



## Grace T.

Sweden has performed worse than the nordics but better than most of the rest of Europe.









						How Sweden swerved Covid disaster
					

The death toll here is lower than nations with draconian restrictions




					unherd.com


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> We have an unusually high death rate on the reservations. People on the reservations have a history of not being terribly healthy. NM is another state that has significant deaths on reservations. Both states took vastly different approaches. And yet outcomes are not that different.
> 
> I am a big fan of AZ. Outside of a couple weeks at the beginning of the school yr last yr they were in school full time. Your kid and most in CA didn't have that luxury.
> 
> That right there is check and mate over CA. My kids didn't suffer getting stuck wasting a yr not going to school, hanging with friends in school, playing sports, both HS and club.


Native Americans make up 5% of the AZ population and 12% of the Covid deaths. That's disproportionately high, but doesn't really explain the higher death rate in AZ - its a (minor) factor.

Most of the public HS that kids on my son's team went to were closed for a large portion of the school year. Charter & private schools followed their own paths, excluding a few weeks at the start of the school year as you said. Most every school, that I'm aware of also had an online learning option and so followed a hybrid model with mask mandates in school.

Fwiw, I do think AZ has handled it better than CA, and I'm happy about that.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Native Americans make up 5% of the AZ population and 12% of the Covid deaths. That's disproportionately high, but doesn't really explain the higher death rate in AZ - its a (minor) factor.
> 
> Most of the public HS that kids on my son's team went to were closed for a large portion of the school year. Charter & private schools followed their own paths, excluding a few weeks at the start of the school year as you said. Most every school, that I'm aware of also had an online learning option and so followed a hybrid model with mask mandates in school.
> 
> Fwiw, I do think AZ has handled it better than CA, and I'm happy about that.


any unified theory of what happened in Arizona has to account for what happened in New Mexico as well.  New Mexico did relatively well compared to Arizona but it's lockdowns were as harsh as California and they had a limited travel ban in place plus New Mexico (unlike Texas, AZ, and California) isn't really a surge zone for southern border crossings due to the location of its cities.  Relative to California (with it's SoCal variant) or even neighboring Colorado (which pursued a much more moderate policy) it's not a good outcome.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> any unified theory of what happened in Arizona has to account for what happened in New Mexico as well.  New Mexico did relatively well compared to Arizona but it's lockdowns were as harsh as California and they had a limited travel ban in place plus New Mexico (unlike Texas, AZ, and California) isn't really a surge zone for southern border crossings due to the location of its cities.  Relative to California (with it's SoCal variant) or even neighboring Colorado (which pursued a much more moderate policy) it's not a good outcome.


its != it's


----------



## NorCalDad

State data: Unvaccinated Texans make up vast majority of COVID-19 cases and deaths this year
					

The new state survey is the first time Texas health officials have been able to statistically measure the vaccine's true impact on the pandemic.




					www.kwtx.com


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> any unified theory of what happened in Arizona has to account for what happened in New Mexico as well.  New Mexico did relatively well compared to Arizona but it's lockdowns were as harsh as California and they had a limited travel ban in place plus New Mexico (unlike Texas, AZ, and California) isn't really a surge zone for southern border crossings due to the location of its cities.  Relative to California (with it's SoCal variant) or even neighboring Colorado (which pursued a much more moderate policy) it's not a good outcome.


I'm not sure what correlation you are trying to make with New Mexico tbh. 75% of the Covid deaths in AZ were in Maricopa, Pima & Pinal counties (none border NM). That correlates to population density imv and not New Mexico and not Indian reservations. Add in the 3 western counties which border CA and which don't have a large reservation footprint, and you get to 85% of the AZ deaths. Native American deaths are disproportionately high, but not a primary driver of the AZ deaths.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> any unified theory of what happened in Arizona has to account for what happened in New Mexico as well.  New Mexico did relatively well compared to Arizona but it's lockdowns were as harsh as California and they had a limited travel ban in place plus New Mexico (unlike Texas, AZ, and California) isn't really a surge zone for southern border crossings due to the location of its cities.  Relative to California (with it's SoCal variant) or even neighboring Colorado (which pursued a much more moderate policy) it's not a good outcome.


I was up in Claremont this past Sunday having lunch with the Outlaws.  Thai place over by where all the smart people go to college.  It was insane Grace T.  Mask on everywhere. I estimate 95% masked up.  Not mandated but understood to be cool one needs to follow orders.  Mask & Jabs is the new normal and this town of future Pros is showing us how to be nice with a mask on.  It's just the right thing to do.  My wife and I decided not to wear a mask and no one said a word and all were so nice.  My wife was complimented on how young she looked and her smile of light.  I think many of these people are just going to live this way, you know the way, the way of just being used to Pandemics every year.  You will never hear about the flu season ever again in this new normal.  It will be Covid 19 for now and them some Pox poison later, that Tony and Billy come up that will scare even me to move to the outdoors.  The city life is starting to look like it always has:  Controlled love & make believe friendships.  This kind of relationship is fake and only works if you roll your sleeve up for the fake team and take boosters for ever, all so your fake friends will accept you.  I believe this is all an act to force vax passport to enter shows and sporting events in the future.  No proof, no entry.  I could be wrong.  Howard Stern is pissed off and does not like liars.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I'm not sure what correlation you are trying to make with New Mexico tbh. 75% of the Covid deaths in AZ were in Maricopa, Pima & Pinal counties (none border NM). That correlates to population density imv and not New Mexico and not Indian reservations. Add in the 3 western counties which border CA and which don't have a large reservation footprint, and you get to 85% of the AZ deaths. Native American deaths are disproportionately high, but not a primary driver of the AZ deaths.


Yet NM underperformed, relative to similar states with similar restrictions (and in California the SoCal variant).


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> I'm not sure what correlation you are trying to make with New Mexico tbh. 75% of the Covid deaths in AZ were in Maricopa, Pima & Pinal counties (none border NM). That correlates to population density imv and not New Mexico and not Indian reservations. Add in the 3 western counties which border CA and which don't have a large reservation footprint, and you get to 85% of the AZ deaths. Native American deaths are disproportionately high, but not a primary driver of the AZ deaths.


I think the point is you have 2 states that neighbor each other. They took vastly different routes in terms of gov intervention. NM in many cases had more restrictions vs CA. And yet NM and AZ ended up in roughly the same situation. 

That tells you it isn't gov intervention driving the difference. That also means the differences in regions likely come down to more the overall health of the population, the age of the population, etc. 

And then you can look at other states. 

CA for instance. Why is that other states with similar cases per million have in some cases much more deaths per million and other less per million? 

It likely again relates to the demographics of the various states.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> any unified theory of what happened in Arizona has to account for what happened in New Mexico as well.  New Mexico did relatively well compared to Arizona but it's lockdowns were as harsh as California and they had a limited travel ban in place plus New Mexico (unlike Texas, AZ, and California) isn't really a surge zone for southern border crossings due to the location of its cities.  Relative to California (with it's SoCal variant) or even neighboring Colorado (which pursued a much more moderate policy) it's not a good outcome.


To understand NM, you need to look at what changed in Sept 2020.  Cases, hospitalizations, and deaths were low in NM from March to September.  

Then, around mid September, cases took off on a 2 month exponential.  Levels jumped 30X, settled at 20X.

Makes you wonder what changed in NM in early September 2020.


----------



## met61

...with over 300 pages, aside from the simpleton comments sure to follow, is anyone willing to admit they sincerely had their mind changed by anything on this thread?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> To understand NM, you need to look at what changed in Sept 2020.  Cases, hospitalizations, and deaths were low in NM from March to September.
> 
> Then, around mid September, cases took off on a 2 month exponential.  Levels jumped 30X, settled at 20X.
> 
> Makes you wonder what changed in NM in early September 2020.


... I'd say more to do with the virus itself than NM or any states/countries... generally, Covid seems to be on a cycle with 60ish day spikes...not due to measures or lack thereof, but in spite of them. *Non-scientific of course, just my hypothesis.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow...the fear to what amount to a bad cold...seems more annoyed at the restrictions than anything from having a family member test positive....I'm still aghast that some people think zero COVID is still possible.









						Getting Back to Normal Is Only Possible Until You Test Positive
					

I was ultracareful for 18 months. Then I got COVID.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Wow...the fear to what amount to a bad cold...seems more annoyed at the restrictions than anything from having a family member test positive....I'm still aghast that some people think zero COVID is still possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting Back to Normal Is Only Possible Until You Test Positive
> 
> 
> I was ultracareful for 18 months. Then I got COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


The ever encroaching government wants more.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Wow...the fear to what amount to a bad cold...seems more annoyed at the restrictions than anything from having a family member test positive....I'm still aghast that some people think zero COVID is still possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting Back to Normal Is Only Possible Until You Test Positive
> 
> 
> I was ultracareful for 18 months. Then I got COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Reading that one just had to shake their heads. 

He and his wife live in fear. They are training their kids to live in fear.

It is amazing to read his thought process about everything. And basically everything is scary.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Can’t talk LA with you guys.  Every time, you want to compare a high density city with the cal.20C variant against some low density place with the base C variant.
> 
> So, you want to run a 1v1 comparison, but you refuse to acknowledge that you picked two places with two different diseases.  No discussion is possible under those terms.


Mandates don’t require scientific discussions


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Reading that one just had to shake their heads.
> 
> He and his wife live in fear. They are training their kids to live in fear.
> 
> It is amazing to read his thought process about everything. And basically everything is scary.


A nation of cowards.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> State data: Unvaccinated Texans make up vast majority of COVID-19 cases and deaths this year
> 
> 
> The new state survey is the first time Texas health officials have been able to statistically measure the vaccine's true impact on the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kwtx.com


There's little doubt in my mind that the vaccine is useful but the way it is presented in this story gives a false sense of how useful it is.

"Only 3% of 1.5 million positive COVID-19 tests examined since mid-January occurred in people who were already vaccinated."

Mid-January? What percent were vaccinated in mid-January? It was also changing pretty quickly at that point as well. It would give a much clearer picture of the current usefulness of the vaccine if they also gave the numbers since the last surge starting about mid-July. At that point, the number of people vaccinated was not changing quickly, and those who wanted to get the vaccine had ample opportunity to do so.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...with over 300 pages, aside from the simpleton comments sure to follow, is anyone willing to admit they sincerely had their mind changed by anything on this thread?


Sure.  Not all of them recent, but-

-Cloth masks are significantly less effective than medical.

-Public NPI strategies are less effective than they seem.  Even if they have a tremendous impact outside the home, the net impact is less because the inside the home transmissibility stays the same.

-The restrictions on outdoor activity went way too far, and may have actually increased transmission.

-Overall we were way too hard on kids and way too easy on adults.

-At some point, give up on the expensive NPI.  The cost is the same, but you’ve already infected so many people there isn’t much benefit left to be had.

How about you?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> And basically everything is scary.


Well, everything other than never-ending governmental "emergency" powers. That's comforting as history has shown there's nothing to be afraid of in that scenario.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, everything other than never-ending governmental "emergency" powers. That's comforting as history has shown there's nothing to be afraid of in that scenario.











						U.S. to buy $1 billion worth of Merck's antiviral COVID pill
					

The Biden administration will buy 1.4 million additional courses of a pill developed by Merck and Ridgeback Biotherapeutics to prevent or treat COVID-19, a purchase worth around $1 billion, the companies announced Tuesday.Why it matters: The U.S. has now committed to acquiring about 3.1 million...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Don't worry, those types of people will be fine....close them blinds and down your pill(s).  The government (pharma) will make sure you are taken care of and appropriantly reliant on their services.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...with over 300 pages, aside from the simpleton comments sure to follow, is anyone willing to admit they sincerely had their mind changed by anything on this thread?


It's a good question. My thoughts on the virus have definitely evolved from the beginning and this thread (and its predecessors) played a part in that as I saw sources I hadn't seen from others' posts. Once you get beyond the obvious one-dimensional trolls, it also gives me a perspective of how others are thinking. The most obvious things that come to my mind are the wide range of risk tolerance, risk assessment, and desired level of self-reliance.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Not all of them recent, but-
> 
> -Cloth masks are significantly less effective than medical.
> 
> -Public NPI strategies are less effective than they seem.  Even if they have a tremendous impact outside the home, the net impact is less because the inside the home transmissibility stays the same.
> 
> -The restrictions on outdoor activity went way too far, and may have actually increased transmission.
> 
> -Overall we were way too hard on kids and way too easy on adults.
> 
> -At some point, give up on the expensive NPI.  The cost is the same, but you’ve already infected so many people there isn’t much benefit left to be had.
> 
> How about you?


-We couldn't develop and deploy a vaccine in under a year.  The deployment would be logistically difficult because of the vaccine stability temperatures.

-While I predicted and timed and measured the depth of the stock market collapse perfectly, I was surprised how quickly the markets recovered.  I underestimated that money didn't have anywhere to go.

-There may not be a herd immunity threshold.  If there is one it's so high it's likely a target we keep moving away from as immunity (both vaccine and natural)fade.  The peaks on the curves therefore seem to be more time based than the number of people who come down with it.

-Biden would be more capable than Trump of managing the end of the pandemic.  While I think which one would have handled things better is debatable, I was surprised how stunningly bad Biden turned out to be in it

-Very harsh NPIs actually do work (whether the early ones in Europe or the early ones in Australia), at least against the prime.  It's not just homes that make the NPIs difficult....it's work....you are spending almost as much time shoulder to shoulder with people if you are working in person.  If you are working shoulder to shoulder with the fry cook at McDonald's who's sick, you are going to get it too.  To be effective, you pretty much have to shut down everything except the most essential of services (read no liquor stores or weed shops or airplanes and trains or fast food or nonessential Amazon warehouses or another big one which ultimately led to Australia's undoing, construction).  The problem with doing that is that it tanks your economy in a matter of weeks so can only be reserved for preserving the hospital system which is in danger of collapse. 

-I'm surprised despite the promises we don't have variant specific booster yet

-I'm most surprised how much we don't know yet.  Such as, how long do boosters work, what exactly is behind long COVID, a definitive word on Ivermectin one way or another (and HDQ for that matter, one way or another).  I hadn't realized how much medicine really still is this much in the dark ages.


----------



## Desert Hound

So here is part of the "unintended" consequences of shutting stuff down and printing cash.

I wonder who gets hurt the most with inflation?


_New wholesale inflation numbers from September are in and once again prove the rapid increase in prices for everyday items isn't "transitory" as President Joe Biden has repeatedly claimed.
*Wholesale prices rose by 8.6 percent compared to September 2020, matching the largest increase on record.*

"The Labor Department reported Tuesday that its producer price index -- which measures inflation before it hits consumers -- rose 0.6% last month from September, pushed higher by surging gasoline prices. Excluding volatile food and energy prices, wholesale inflation was up 0.4% in October from September and 6.8% from a year ago," the Associated Press reports. "More than 60% of the September-October increase in overall producer prices was caused by a 1.2% increase in the price of wholesale goods as opposed to services. A 6.7% jump in wholesale gasoline prices helped drive goods prices up."_

But no worries our press is on it and letting us know not to worry.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> So here is part of the "unintended" consequences of shutting stuff down and printing cash.
> 
> I wonder who gets hurt the most with inflation?
> 
> 
> _New wholesale inflation numbers from September are in and once again prove the rapid increase in prices for everyday items isn't "transitory" as President Joe Biden has repeatedly claimed.
> *Wholesale prices rose by 8.6 percent compared to September 2020, matching the largest increase on record.*
> 
> "The Labor Department reported Tuesday that its producer price index -- which measures inflation before it hits consumers -- rose 0.6% last month from September, pushed higher by surging gasoline prices. Excluding volatile food and energy prices, wholesale inflation was up 0.4% in October from September and 6.8% from a year ago," the Associated Press reports. "More than 60% of the September-October increase in overall producer prices was caused by a 1.2% increase in the price of wholesale goods as opposed to services. A 6.7% jump in wholesale gasoline prices helped drive goods prices up."_
> 
> But no worries our press is on it and letting us know not to worry.
> 
> View attachment 12051


Whatever you do, don't light a match.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> So here is part of the "unintended" consequences of shutting stuff down and printing cash.
> 
> I wonder who gets hurt the most with inflation?
> 
> 
> _New wholesale inflation numbers from September are in and once again prove the rapid increase in prices for everyday items isn't "transitory" as President Joe Biden has repeatedly claimed.
> *Wholesale prices rose by 8.6 percent compared to September 2020, matching the largest increase on record.*
> 
> "The Labor Department reported Tuesday that its producer price index -- which measures inflation before it hits consumers -- rose 0.6% last month from September, pushed higher by surging gasoline prices. Excluding volatile food and energy prices, wholesale inflation was up 0.4% in October from September and 6.8% from a year ago," the Associated Press reports. "More than 60% of the September-October increase in overall producer prices was caused by a 1.2% increase in the price of wholesale goods as opposed to services. A 6.7% jump in wholesale gasoline prices helped drive goods prices up."_
> 
> But no worries our press is on it and letting us know not to worry.
> 
> View attachment 12051


I listen to the idiots in the press discuss inflation all the time.  Not a single one attributes an increase in prices to an increase in the money supply.  An increase in money supply ALWAYS precedes an increase in prices and hurts savers and the poor the worst.


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> I listen to the idiots in the press discuss inflation all the time.  Not a single one attributes an increase in prices to an increase in the money supply.  An increase in money supply ALWAYS precedes an increase in prices and hurts savers and the poor the worst.


Agree with everything except your all caps word.  Inflation is usually, but not always, preceded by an increase in the money supply.

You can get inflation just from a decline in the size of the economy.   Think contracting empires with fiat currency.  Same money supply, but fewer places which accept it.

Severe price shocks to key imported goods can cause inflation, too.   The price shock itself starts inflation.  Then the government has to decide whether to make the recession worse or make the inflation worse.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Agree with everything except your all caps word.  Inflation is usually, but not always, preceded by an increase in the money supply.
> 
> You can get inflation just from a decline in the size of the economy.   Think contracting empires with fiat currency.  Same money supply, but fewer places which accept it.
> 
> Severe price shocks to key imported goods can cause inflation, too.   The price shock itself starts inflation.  Then the government has to decide whether to make the recession worse or make the inflation worse.


----------



## dad4

Rankings of states for covid deaths per capita, after adjusting for age.  

It does not adjust for variant, SES, or population density.  





__





						States Ranked by Age-Adjusted COVID Deaths
					

Cumulative age-adjusted COVID deaths per capita by state, updated weekly. The Pacific Northwest, Hawaii, and Upper New England have fewer COVID deaths.




					www.bioinformaticscro.com
				




Florida and Arizona ends up looking better, but Texas ends up looking a lot worse.  #2, between MS and AL.


----------



## crush

You guys remember when...


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Agree with everything except your all caps word.  Inflation is usually, but not always, preceded by an increase in the money supply.
> 
> You can get inflation just from a decline in the size of the economy.   Think contracting empires with fiat currency.  Same money supply, but fewer places which accept it.
> 
> Severe price shocks to key imported goods can cause inflation, too.   The price shock itself starts inflation.  Then the government has to decide whether to make the recession worse or make the inflation worse.


You actually justified my use of the word always in your entire post.  An increase in the money supply is what makes fiat currency.  When the money supply increases, that does not mean that goods and services automatically increase.  It does mean that more people have more money and they compete for a present amount or anticipated amount of goods and services, driving up prices and devaluing the dollars purchasing power.  Hence cryptos, gold, the rush to hard assets, etc..


----------



## crush

Calling all fence sitters.......









						"TODAY IS THE WRONG DAY TO BE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LAW"
					

.




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## met61

...Aaron Rodgers can’t have an opinion on his health, he isn’t a doctor. Anyways, now we go to Big Bird who has a special message for you on vaccines.

...we've lost our everloving minds!


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...Aaron Rodgers can’t have an opinion on his health, he isn’t a doctor. Anyways, now we go to Big Bird who has a special message for you on vaccines.
> 
> ...we've lost our everloving minds!


Woe woe woe woe, unto they that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Not all of them recent, but-
> 
> -Cloth masks are significantly less effective than medical.
> 
> -Public NPI strategies are less effective than they seem.  Even if they have a tremendous impact outside the home, the net impact is less because the inside the home transmissibility stays the same.
> 
> -The restrictions on outdoor activity went way too far, and may have actually increased transmission.
> 
> -Overall we were way too hard on kids and way too easy on adults.
> 
> -At some point, give up on the expensive NPI.  The cost is the same, but you’ve already infected so many people there isn’t much benefit left to be had.
> 
> How about you?


... I've had many, but a couple of the most significant:

... I fully expected the country, politicians, media, and just fellow citizens in general to rally above differences, like following 9/11, focusing on what was best for the country and  holding China accountable...my mind was changed when a deadly pandemic was shamelessly used as a political tool to continue dividing the country.

... I did not think so many Americans, and churches above all, would so blindly and uncritically acquiesce to the government and surrender liberties and freedoms so easily,  and continuing to this day...again, mind changed.

... I trusted scientist/medical professionals and the science/medical communities to remain committed to truth and not fold to political / government pressures...they began losing me with their response, or lack thereof, to the BLM riots...and unfortunately, they continue to disappoint and change my mind to this day.

...one of the only constant and non-changing beliefs, is how pathetic the media was before the pandemic, and continues to be equally if not more pathetic to this day. 


.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...one of the only constant and non-changing beliefs, is how pathetic the media was before the pandemic, and continues to be equally if not more pathetic to this day.


The lack of balance and unashamed - even celebrated - advocacy and gaslighting in the media is a primary driver of extremism.


----------



## met61

...hang in there folks, the hardest part of "15 days to slow the spread" is probably the first 600 days.

..."Alex, I'll take; 'You're Being Played' for 1000"


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Rankings of states for covid deaths per capita, after adjusting for age.
> 
> It does not adjust for variant, SES, or population density.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States Ranked by Age-Adjusted COVID Deaths
> 
> 
> Cumulative age-adjusted COVID deaths per capita by state, updated weekly. The Pacific Northwest, Hawaii, and Upper New England have fewer COVID deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bioinformaticscro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida and Arizona ends up looking better, but Texas ends up looking a lot worse.  #2, between MS and AL.


You forgot race which would also be interesting to see.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...hang in there folks, the hardest part of "15 days to slow the spread" is probably the first 600 days.
> 
> ..."Alex, I'll take; 'You're Being Played' for 1000"


"Alex, I'll take; 'You lost your job for 500'


----------



## dad4

Bruddah IZ said:


> You actually justified my use of the word always in your entire post.  An increase in the money supply is what makes fiat currency.  When the money supply increases, that does not mean that goods and services automatically increase.  It does mean that more people have more money and they compete for a present amount or anticipated amount of goods and services, driving up prices and devaluing the dollars purchasing power.  Hence cryptos, gold, the rush to hard assets, etc..


That is a very peculiar definition of fiat currency: an increase to money supply.

By your definition, Spain's 17th century gold coinage was a fiat currency, because money supply increased.

Conversely, the completely unbacked 1981 US dollar was not a fiat currency, because money supply shrank.

I take it you learned your economics from a YouTube channel?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...Aaron Rodgers can’t have an opinion on his health, he isn’t a doctor. Anyways, now we go to Big Bird who has a special message for you on vaccines.
> 
> ...we've lost our everloving minds!


More evidence of the upside down, backwards world we live in.

I couldn't care less about the opinion of an athlete, actor/actress, "journalist", fictional puppet. Facebook poster, etc.  Whether I agree with them or not.  I certainly couldn't care less about the opinion Bill Maher because all of a sudden he agrees with me.  I find it comical how some on the right love to point out when he agrees with them, like some how he has credibility.  He's an unprincipled POS, although I do enjoy his show on occasion.  (Sorry for the tangent)


----------



## Grace T.

Those of you (if any of you) who though vaccinating 5-11 year olds would be an offramp got played for suckers.  When they say the quiet part out loud: some Covidians want kids masked for maybe a year or two more.   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458467935375085568


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That is a very peculiar definition of fiat currency: an increase to money supply.
> 
> By your definition, Spain's 17th century gold coinage was a fiat currency, because money supply increased.
> 
> Conversely, the completely unbacked 1981 US dollar was not a fiat currency, because money supply shrank.
> 
> I take it you learned your economics from a YouTube channel?


You're not alone in your lack of understanding of money.  The masses, you included, don't understand that Fiat money is *a government-issued currency that is not backed by a commodity such as gold*. Fiat money gives central banks greater control over the economy because they can control how much money is printed. Most modern paper currencies, such as the U.S. dollar, are fiat currencies.


----------



## dad4

Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:



1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234


Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.  

Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


----------



## Grace T.

Cases are definitely seeing a noticeable uptick in California.  Interior areas are getting hit the hardest, but there's been a definite uptick in heavily hit and masked Los Angeles and heavily vaxxed and masked Bay counties as well.









						California’s COVID fortunes reverse as cases begin to climb
					

The change in the state’s coronavirus trajectory is “not subtle,” one expert said...




					www.sfchronicle.com
				











						COVID-19 hospitalizations rising in parts of California, a potentially ominous sign
					

COVID hospitalizations go up in Riverside, San Bernardino and Fresno counties, where vaccination rate is low; and in Orange County, where it's higher.




					www.latimes.com
				








						Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) from Mayo Clinic - Mayo Clinic
					






					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Those of you (if any of you) who though vaccinating 5-11 year olds would be an offramp got played for suckers.  When they say the quiet part out loud: some Covidians want kids masked for maybe a year or two more.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458467935375085568


It makes no sense. They dont need a vax. 

And I am amazed at the mindset that someone has a vax, but they want others to be vaxxed. 

Either the vax works or it doesn't. 

But the mindset of many is like the guy who wrote that article talking about his fear going to the wedding. Then making his kids sit 20 ft away from him at home before he bailed to stay somewhere else.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234
> 
> 
> Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.
> 
> Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


How are the ages "corrected"?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234
> 
> 
> Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.
> 
> Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


for the record, I think there is no doubt we'd see a higher death rate in lower vaxxed states.  But that belies the question of what "vaccine optional" means...technically with the Biden order there is no vaccine optional state, or you could argue that even California is technically vaccine optional.

Further, that doesn't mean there's correlation with masks or reopening. The reopening part is also a bit of a die roll....depends if you timed it when seasonality kicked in for your area (such as NY at the beginning of the outbreak).  Though isn't it interesting Florida despite the evil Ron DeSantis and his no masks, early reopening did not make top 20???

The other interesting thing from this chart is some of our richest and poorest states are in the top 20.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> It makes no sense. They dont need a vax.
> 
> And I am amazed at the mindset that someone has a vax, but they want others to be vaxxed.
> 
> Either the vax works or it doesn't.
> 
> But the mindset of many is like the guy who wrote that article talking about his fear going to the wedding. Then making his kids sit 20 ft away from him at home before he bailed to stay somewhere else.


The guy in the article doesn't seem to realize he's more upset by the blue state and Covidian restrictions once he caught his cold than the cold itself.  The only rational thing in the article is apparently he or his family saw his MIL during the time period...well if you really are worried about your elderly and you just went to a wedding and a cross country flight, why the F would you see your MIL?????


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Speaking of the New York Times


All of this is your fault, they say.

If you had just listened to the experts (I am trying to use that word with a straight face) and followed their mitigation measures, we could have conquered this thing long ago.

So the whole thing has been a morality play: your "bad behavior" is keeping this going, while my "good behavior" is keeping it in check.

What you're seeing below are two maps of the United States, side by side, separated by roughly three months, depicting the COVID cases that our opinion molders profess to be so concerned about. These maps are generated on a regular basis by the _New York Times_.













Well, how about that.

Remember when the map on the left was the fault of Ron DeSantis? Not to mention the vaccination rates of those states, which were likewise blamed (although Florida's vaccination numbers for seniors have been quite high).

And yet with zero changes in behavior, the map on the left became the map on the right.

Are we supposed to believe that everyone in the southeast suddenly started wearing masks at the same time, and everyone in the rest of the country stopped wearing them, also at the same time?

A _New York Times_reporter posted the chart on the right and asked how this was possible, given that the governors of those states had generally ignored "CDC guidelines."

I jokingly retweeted him with the comment, "He's so close to getting it."


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Either the vax works or it doesn't.


Why do you assume that vaccinations is either 0% or 100% effective?  

You have plenty of evidence that the actual answer is in the middle.  You are well aware that the vaccine reduces but does not eliminate risks from covid.  Yet you insist on putting forward the above argument, despite knowing that is is false.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> That is a very peculiar definition of fiat currency: an increase to money supply.
> 
> By your definition, Spain's 17th century gold coinage was a fiat currency, because money supply increased.
> 
> Conversely, the completely unbacked 1981 US dollar was not a fiat currency, because money supply shrank.
> 
> I take it you learned your economics from a YouTube channel?


His economic theories are way older than youtube.  I once traced them to the 3AM infomercials urging everyone to BUY GOLD NOW!!! because the Federal Reserve was just a fiction created to allow demonic forces to tear down America!!!

I think those have been replaced by Pat Boone commercials (man, has his career sunk low).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why do you assume that vaccinations is either 0% or 100% effective?
> 
> You have plenty of evidence that the actual answer is in the middle.  You are well aware that the vaccine reduces but does not eliminate risks from covid.  Yet you insist on putting forward the above argument, despite knowing that is is false.


Why would a non-corona tissue vaccine reduce risk more than the mandated immune system?  Your tyrannical bent is showing.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why do you assume that vaccinations is either 0% or 100% effective?
> 
> You have plenty of evidence that the actual answer is in the middle.  You are well aware that the vaccine reduces but does not eliminate risks from covid.  Yet you insist on putting forward the above argument, despite knowing that is is false.


weren't you one of the people who was arguing that it wasn't fair to say the vax didn't work if it still was effective against serious cases and death?  Are you now saying the vaccine is not sufficiently protective against serious illness and death?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> His economic theories are way older than youtube.  I once traced them to the 3AM infomercials urging everyone to BUY GOLD NOW!!! because the Federal Reserve was just a fiction created to allow demonic forces to tear down America!!!
> 
> I think those have been replaced by Pat Boone commercials (man, has his career sunk low).


Speaking of the masses.  Still grappling with the Fed Funds rate eh?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> for the record, I think there is no doubt we'd see a higher death rate in lower vaxxed states.  But that belies the question of what "vaccine optional" means...technically with the Biden order there is no vaccine optional state, or you could argue that even California is technically vaccine optional.
> 
> Further, that doesn't mean there's correlation with masks or reopening. The reopening part is also a bit of a die roll....depends if you timed it when seasonality kicked in for your area (such as NY at the beginning of the outbreak).  Though isn't it interesting Florida despite the evil Ron DeSantis and his no masks, early reopening did not make top 20???
> 
> The other interesting thing from this chart is some of our richest and poorest states are in the top 20.


Of the states which banned mask mandates, 6 out of 9 are in the top 20.

Of the states which require masks in schools, 5 out of 17 are in the top 20.

Not looking good for your argument that masks don’t do much.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Those of you (if any of you) who though vaccinating 5-11 year olds would be an offramp got played for suckers.  When they say the quiet part out loud: some Covidians want kids masked for maybe a year or two more.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458467935375085568


Hmmm. By what historical standard, or even current risk, are we basing this "safe for children"?

Covidians, nice. How about the Masked Covidians? It echoes back to the Branch Davidians. I like the parallel


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Of the states which banned mask mandates, 6 out of 9 are in the top 20.
> 
> Of the states which require masks in schools, 5 out of 17 are in the top 20.
> 
> Not looking good for your argument that masks don’t do much.


Hahaha! Because everyone knows masks are the ONLY variable that matters.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Because everyone knows masks are the ONLY variable that matters.


I actually edited out the last sentence about other variables.  It just sounded redundant by now.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why do you assume that vaccinations is either 0% or 100% effective?
> 
> You have plenty of evidence that the actual answer is in the middle.  You are well aware that the vaccine reduces but does not eliminate risks from covid.  Yet you insist on putting forward the above argument, despite knowing that is is false.


Speaking of false.

Health officials have been warning about a potential new rise in COVID-19 in California as seniors who got their shots last winter — and haven’t received a booster shot — may start to see their immunity wane, leaving them exposed to greater risk for infection and hospitalization, and as people gather indoors more as the weather cools and the holidays approach.

Demand for booster shots has fallen below expectation in California. And each infected Californian is increasingly spreading the coronavirus to more people; as of Saturday, computer models estimated that every infected Californian was spreading the virus on average to 0.96 other people; if that number rises above 1, that will set the stage for further growth of the pandemic.

“COVID cases are beginning to rise. Winter months [mean] people indoors and more possibilities for spread,” Gov. Gavin Newsom tweeted Tuesday morning.

“Keep your immunity up,” he added. “Get your booster.”

Officials are hopeful that strict vaccination requirements in some of California’s most populated areas will help slow the spread of cases in the winter. In Los Angeles, a new city rule generally requiring patrons to show proof of full vaccination to enter venues like indoor restaurants, gyms, movie theaters, and hair and nail salons went into effect Monday, but won’t be enforced until after Thanksgiving.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I actually edited out the last sentence about other variables.  It just sounded redundant by now.


Sounded?  What makes you say that? Lol!


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234
> 
> 
> Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.
> 
> Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


When you adjust for age it looks an awful lot like a ranking by BMI.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Of the states which banned mask mandates, 6 out of 9 are in the top 20.
> 
> Of the states which require masks in schools, 5 out of 17 are in the top 20.
> 
> Not looking good for your argument that masks don’t do much.



Errr...again Florida. And wow for someone who's math skills I really admire, your logic skills are not very good at all.  You know that if there's an "and" (e.g., masks and vaccines), proving one doesn't prove another.  It may show that states that are more careful (e.g., vaccinating, which we both agree reduces deaths), may also mask more heavily.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> When you adjust for age it looks an awful lot like a ranking by BMI.


Except for NY, NJ, and DC.   As the US goes, those are all very low obesity states.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Except for NY, NJ, and DC.   As the US goes, those are all very low obesity states.


Nevada's another outlier but otherwise really spot on


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Nevada's another outlier but otherwise really spot on


Nevada‘s high death rate may have something to do with keeping the casinos open.  That’s a lot of people sharing air in bars, restaurants, gambling halls, and airplanes.


----------



## Grace T.

If this pans it out (big if) it may be the grand unified theory of the corona pandemic....

It would explain why natural immunity is more long lasting than vaccine immunity, why Asia wasn't hit as hard by the early waves, why some people who test positive have a low or no antibody count, 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458499120151285762


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Except for NY, NJ, and DC.   As the US goes, those are all very low obesity states.


Yeah 26.3%, 27.7%, 24.3% respectively. Very low is single digits.  Those states are still obese including D.C..


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Nevada‘s high death rate may have something to do with keeping the casinos open.  That’s a lot of people sharing air in bars, restaurants, gambling halls, and airplanes.


And yet they have less deaths than New York, and the same as New Jersey according to NYT.  Still on that behavior kick I see.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234
> 
> 
> Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.
> 
> Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


...exactly what are you getting at? In fact, after citing all these numbers and data points for the United States,  and the entire world for that matter, throughout over 300 pages on this thread...I am still no closer to understanding what your main point is??? ...come on, give it to me specifically and concisely...what would make folks show up as a captive audience and listen to you speak on Covid...Ultimately, what is your Marquee Headline?


----------



## GoldenGate

Arizona has officially passed NY's Covid-19 death rate.  Arizona has no excuse.  It can't claim its constituents died before anyone knew how it was spread or who was most susceptible, or the effectiveness of masks, or the availability of vaccines, or even how stupid it is to rely on horse paste as a primary means of treatment.  It's only a matter of time until idiotic FL also passes NY.  Meanwhile NY and CA continue to possess among the lowest death rates since vaccines became available (and long before then also).  

This one should not have trusted her immune system.  It was her freedom to choose, and she chose poorly.  So funny.  Good thing natural immunity works better than vaccines when you don't count all of the people for whom it doesn't work better. Natural immunity is 100% better than the vaccine if you don't count the almost 800,000 Americans who have died, or the millions suffering long term consequences from getting Covid-19.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Arizona has officially passed NY's Covid-19 death rate.  Arizona has no excuse.  It can't claim its constituents died before anyone knew how it was spread or who was most susceptible, or the effectiveness of masks, or the availability of vaccines, or even how stupid it is to rely on horse paste as a primary means of treatment.  It's only a matter of time until idiotic FL also passes NY.  Meanwhile NY and CA continue to possess among the lowest death rates since vaccines became available (and long before then also).
> 
> This one should not have trusted her immune system.  It was her freedom to choose, and she chose poorly.  So funny.  Good thing natural immunity works better than vaccines when you don't count all of the people for whom it doesn't work better. Natural immunity is 100% better than the vaccine if you don't count the almost 800,000 Americans who have died, or the millions suffering long term consequences from getting Covid-19.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12054


...this is the equivalent of someone entering a room...farting and clearing the room. I'm out.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...this is the equivalent of someone entering a room...farting and clearing the room. I'm out.


The key is to know which "rooms" to avoid. Fortunately, the name makes it easy.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...this is the equivalent of someone entering a room...farting and clearing the room. I'm out.


Someone doesn't like hearing the truth.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...this is the equivalent of someone entering a room...farting and clearing the room. I'm out.


----------



## Desert Hound

This guy asks a good question.

Anyone here want to take a bite at the apple?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456390260578000906


----------



## Desert Hound

Dear Lord look at what we have done to people.

This guy falls into the Atlantic writer category.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242584266585899008


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Nevada's another outlier but otherwise really spot on


Yeah, not really.  The three states , NY,NJ,DC, are less obese than MS.  But, still Obese.  The BMI is tough.  At 5'10, your best weight to deal with corona is 170 give or take 3 lbs.  Dad is whirlin' again.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Dear Lord look at what we have done to people.
> 
> This guy falls into the Atlantic writer category.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242584266585899008


Nice shot of QUATS (quaternary ammonium compounds) to go with your morn' cuppa joe.


----------



## Desert Hound

Well not the kind of news they want to get out now is it? 









						California Governor Gavin Newsom attends Ivy Getty's wedding
					

California Governor Gavin Newsom was left with muscle weakness and fatigue after receiving two jabs within days of each other, friends claim.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Dear Lord look at what we have done to people.
> 
> This guy falls into the Atlantic writer category.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242584266585899008



Hahahahaha! The logic of the Covidians.  He's taking more of a chance of burning himself with the hot coffee or getting beat up by the guy he told to f off.  Flawless reasoning as always from them.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Hahahahaha! The logic of the Covidians.  He's taking more of a chance of burning himself with the hot coffee or getting beat up by the guy he told to f off.  Flawless reasoning as always from them.


Risk assessment failure.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Risk assessment failure.


Meanwhile he drives one-handed with hot coffee in the other hand.  Not saying that I don't do the same thing, but...

The proper term is probably Covidiots.


----------



## Grace T.

The veterans study is getting a lot of play in the media.  The only really thing we can conclude is that there's a severe decline in the efficacy of all 3 unboosted vax (J&J being the most severe close to completely worthless) against symptomatic infection.  The study didn't reach a conclusion on whether that decline is due to the Delta or because as the Israeli studies suggest the vaccine is declining in efficacy over time.

It's not enough to reach a conclusion, but it's another tick in favor that the vaccines (unless you are going to mandate boosters) won't get us to herd immunity, unless you are prepared to mandate boosters.  As a policy matter we are rapidly heading to mandate boosters (and then the question is how long is boosted immunity going to be and if you are going to keep mandating it) or just accept this is going to keep spreading.  As dad4 would point out, that leaves a substantial number of elderly that remain vulnerable (since efficacy in that age group against severe disease also seems to have declined), but the next best hope for that seems to be the boosters (which most first world countries seem to be doing but we don't yet have a lot of data for) and pills (which the health authorities at this point really need to fast track...why have those hearings been delayed as long as they have????)










						Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all 3 COVID-19 vaccines over time
					

As the Delta variant became the dominant strain of coronavirus across the United States, all three COVID-19 vaccines available to Americans lost some of their protective power, with vaccine efficacy among a large group of veterans dropping between 35% and 85%, according to a new study.




					www.staradvertiser.com
				












						Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all three COVID-19 vaccines over time
					

A study of 780,000 veterans shows a dramatic decline in effectiveness for all three COVID-19 vaccines in use in the U.S.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The veterans study is getting a lot of play in the media.  The only really thing we can conclude is that there's a severe decline in the efficacy of all 3 unboosted vax (J&J being the most severe close to completely worthless) against symptomatic infection.  The study didn't reach a conclusion on whether that decline is due to the Delta or because as the Israeli studies suggest the vaccine is declining in efficacy over time.
> 
> It's not enough to reach a conclusion, but it's another tick in favor that the vaccines (unless you are going to mandate boosters) won't get us to herd immunity, unless you are prepared to mandate boosters.  As a policy matter we are rapidly heading to mandate boosters (and then the question is how long is boosted immunity going to be and if you are going to keep mandating it) or just accept this is going to keep spreading.  As dad4 would point out, that leaves a substantial number of elderly that remain vulnerable (since efficacy in that age group against severe disease also seems to have declined), but the next best hope for that seems to be the boosters (which most first world countries seem to be doing but we don't yet have a lot of data for) and pills (which the health authorities at this point really need to fast track...why have those hearings been delayed as long as they have????)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all 3 COVID-19 vaccines over time
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant became the dominant strain of coronavirus across the United States, all three COVID-19 vaccines available to Americans lost some of their protective power, with vaccine efficacy among a large group of veterans dropping between 35% and 85%, according to a new study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all three COVID-19 vaccines over time
> 
> 
> A study of 780,000 veterans shows a dramatic decline in effectiveness for all three COVID-19 vaccines in use in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Pills to the rescue.  Amazon pharmacy delivers to your door next or same day.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Pills to the rescue.  Amazon pharmacy delivers to your door next or same day.


Yeah, but the FDA is really slow walking it.  If it wasn't Pfizer I wouldn't be confident of approval at all.  I'm a little surprised, for example, AZ was never approved and Novavax still hasn't been (which would solve a part of the reluctance to vaccinate issue as some people are just scared of the mRNA vaccines).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Someone doesn't like hearing the truth.


Your flatulence says you have a turd playing peek-a-boo.  Own it.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Dear Lord look at what we have done to people.
> 
> This guy falls into the Atlantic writer category.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242584266585899008


I love anecdotes.  Here are some anecdotes about one dead anti-vaxxer/masker after the next.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qqws3b


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qr6v7u


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qql34c


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qql97e
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qqdiw1/sf_cop_refused_the_vaccination_deadline_in_order/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qqavmq/oregon_woman_thought_that_the_pandemic_should/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qqb1jo/another_michigan_snowflake_accepts_his_hca/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qpnr66/brave_smart_patriot_leaves_his_selfishness_all/


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but the FDA is really slow walking it.  If it wasn't Pfizer I wouldn't be confident of approval at all.  I'm a little surprised, for example, AZ was never approved and Novavax still hasn't been (which would solve a part of the reluctance to vaccinate issue as some people are just scared of the mRNA vaccines).


Another panel meets at the end of this month to review the Merck data.   EUA will likely soon follow.  Pfizer will be next in line. The US government has already penned a deal with Merck.  The FDA needs to rubberstamp the pills.  

Pills will be a game changer for the medical community.  They don't carry the same stigma as the vaccines and are so much easier to administer.  Pills still carry a stigma but not the divisive one the vaccines have.  Silly if you think about it.  The tech in the pfizer pill is newish as well but no one will complain.  Their will not be mandate for a therapuetic.  Jus that thought alone wil drive people to get it.  Plenty of $$ to be made..


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The veterans study is getting a lot of play in the media.  The only really thing we can conclude is that there's a severe decline in the efficacy of all 3 unboosted vax (J&J being the most severe close to completely worthless) against symptomatic infection.  The study didn't reach a conclusion on whether that decline is due to the Delta or because as the Israeli studies suggest the vaccine is declining in efficacy over time.
> 
> It's not enough to reach a conclusion, but it's another tick in favor that the vaccines (unless you are going to mandate boosters) won't get us to herd immunity, unless you are prepared to mandate boosters.  As a policy matter we are rapidly heading to mandate boosters (and then the question is how long is boosted immunity going to be and if you are going to keep mandating it) or just accept this is going to keep spreading.  As dad4 would point out, that leaves a substantial number of elderly that remain vulnerable (since efficacy in that age group against severe disease also seems to have declined), but the next best hope for that seems to be the boosters (which most first world countries seem to be doing but we don't yet have a lot of data for) and pills (which the health authorities at this point really need to fast track...why have those hearings been delayed as long as they have????)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all 3 COVID-19 vaccines over time
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant became the dominant strain of coronavirus across the United States, all three COVID-19 vaccines available to Americans lost some of their protective power, with vaccine efficacy among a large group of veterans dropping between 35% and 85%, according to a new study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study shows dramatic decline in effectiveness of all three COVID-19 vaccines over time
> 
> 
> A study of 780,000 veterans shows a dramatic decline in effectiveness for all three COVID-19 vaccines in use in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


I have to think enthusiasm for boosters will wane and they'll be taken at about the same level as the flu shot. Is there any reason to think otherwise? The good news is that maybe in a year or two children can move about without masks. So, we can look forward to that.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Age corrected data for overall covid deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Mississippi3473552Texas2613123Alabama3153104Oklahoma2882955Louisiana2822936Tennessee2832867New Jersey2952847New York2992849Arkansas2842759Nevada26027511Georgia24027412District of Columbia22626713South Carolina26325613North Dakota26725615Kentucky24725016Arizona26224916Indiana24424918South Dakota26224619Rhode Island26923820Missouri245234
> 
> 
> Of the 20 worst states, 16 fall into the “mask optional, vaccine optional, reopen early” camp.
> 
> Three of the other four are East coast states which got infected early and returned known covid patients to nursing homes.


Lotta red there.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Why do you assume that vaccinations is either 0% or 100% effective?
> 
> You have plenty of evidence that the actual answer is in the middle.  You are well aware that the vaccine reduces but does not eliminate risks from covid.  Yet you insist on putting forward the above argument, despite knowing that is is false.


Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity is knowing better but preceding anyways.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Meanwhile he drives one-handed with hot coffee in the other hand.  Not saying that I don't do the same thing, but...
> 
> The proper term is probably Covidiots.


What do you call those that died?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do you call those that died?


At least unfortunate.  There are so many reasons for the deaths I'm not going to label them as a group.  Im sure you can find some clever names on Reddit.


----------



## Airborn

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity is knowing better but preceding anyways.


No, stupidity is using preceding when you mean proceeding.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> Your flatulence says you have a turd playing peek-a-boo.  Own it.


Was that a fart?

Some of it..


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity is knowing better but preceding anyways.


Well you have described yourself perfectly.

Is that what you say daily looking into the mirror while you comb your hair?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Airborn said:


> No, stupidity is using preceding when you mean proceeding.


Sorry, I’m just a common laborer, a working stiff, salt of the earth type.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Lotta red there.


Like dad4 said, 16 out of twenty were non-mandate/mask optional.

it was also mentioned that the areas above are in the higher BMI tiers… Well, 16 out of twenty of them.

If there are ‘age-adjusted’ numbers (still interested in that definition), shouldn’t we also be able to derive BMI adjusted numbers.

Since we already know age and BMI are the greatest risk factors for hospitalizations and deaths, Why can’t we back both of those population driven factors out and finally see something about policy impacts?  Assuming that hospitalizations and deaths are the bar… not zero sniffles.  

I know some will argue about seasonality of the sample window, regional variants, vaccination  rates, population density, etc…Kinda like we argue about ECNL club rankings mid season due to strength of schedule in other threads…but at the end of the day, don’t we really want to know what works so we can actually do a cost/benefit analysis?

(We don’t yet fully know the costs, nor can we measure the benefits)


----------



## Airborn

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry, I’m just a common laborer, a working stiff, salt of the earth type.


I know, just like Gavin, right?








						California Governor Gavin Newsom attends Ivy Getty's wedding
					

California Governor Gavin Newsom was left with muscle weakness and fatigue after receiving two jabs within days of each other, friends claim.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry, I’m just a common laborer, a working stiff, salt of the earth type.


No, actually you're a dumbass.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Like dad4 said, 16 out of twenty were non-mandate/mask optional.
> 
> it was also mentioned that the areas above are in the higher BMI tiers… Well, 16 out of twenty of them.
> 
> If there are ‘age-adjusted’ numbers (still interested in that definition), shouldn’t we also be able to derive BMI adjusted numbers.
> 
> Since we already know age and BMI are the greatest risk factors for hospitalizations and deaths, Why can’t we back both of those population driven factors out and finally see something about policy impacts?  Assuming that hospitalizations and deaths are the bar… not zero sniffles.
> 
> I know some will argue about seasonality of the sample window, regional variants, vaccination  rates, population density, etc…Kinda like we argue about ECNL club rankings mid season due to strength of schedule in other threads…but at the end of the day, don’t we really want to know what works so we can actually do a cost/benefit analysis?
> 
> (We don’t yet fully know the costs, nor can we measure the benefits)


There are people who do exactly that kind of analysis.  They've consistently told us what works: vaccines, masks, distance, and being outside.

Is it their fault if some people here would rather repost Twitter memes than listen to someone who actually knows something?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> There are people who do exactly that kind of analysis.  They've consistently told us what works: vaccines, masks, distance, and being outside.


Are you sure they’re doing that kind of analysis? If so, then they have enough data to do cost/benefit analysis as well. 

So what works optimally from a cost/benefit point of view? …

What you just described is a zero sniffles ‘what works’… the rest needs to be filled in.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> There are people who do exactly that kind of analysis.  They've consistently told us what works: vaccines, masks, distance, and being outside.
> 
> Is it their fault if some people here would rather repost Twitter memes than listen to someone who actually knows something?


You mean the same people that lied to us about masks and immunity thresholds?  The same ones that were wrong about their mathematical models?  The same ones that let the teachers union set masking and school reopening policy?  The same one that told us the BLM protests were somehow exempt from distancing but Trump rallies were bad?  The same ones that said being outside wasn't good in the first place and closed the beaches?  The ones that somehow think that masks only work for them while in front of the cameras, and that masks magically protect you from the door to your table?  Yeah, let's trust them.

Amazing you are back to "trust the experts".


----------



## Grace T.

We were talking about New Mexico earlier.....









						State health officials plan to renew New Mexico's indoor mask mandate
					

In a COVID-19 update Wednesday, New Mexico health officials said the state's cases are on the rise and hospitals are filling up, again.




					www.kob.com


----------



## Grace T.

Our dear governor.....









						Newsom Extends Covid State Of Emergency In California For 3rd Time, Will Take State Past 2 Year Mark Under Pandemic Order
					

Governor Gavin Newsom today extended for the third time the state of emergency in California related to the threat that Covid poses. Today’s executive order stretches declaration through Marc…




					deadline.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You mean the same people that lied to us about masks and immunity thresholds?  The same ones that were wrong about their mathematical models?  The same ones that let the teachers union set masking and school reopening policy?  The same one that told us the BLM protests were somehow exempt from distancing but Trump rallies were bad?  The same ones that said being outside wasn't good in the first place and closed the beaches?  The ones that somehow think that masks only work for them while in front of the cameras, and that masks magically protect you from the door to your table?  Yeah, let's trust them.
> 
> Amazing you are back to "trust the experts".


You seem to be confused about the difference between epidemiologists and Democratic politicians.  

And no one lied to you about immunity thresholds.   The 70% number was accurate for the disease that existed at the time of the estimate.  It just isn‘t valid for Delta, because Delta didn’t exist back then. 

Did you think they had a crystal ball that could predict what kind of mutations would happen 8 months later?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You mean the same people that lied to us about masks and immunity thresholds?  The same ones that were wrong about their mathematical models?  The same ones that let the teachers union set masking and school reopening policy?  The same one that told us the BLM protests were somehow exempt from distancing but Trump rallies were bad?  The same ones that said being outside wasn't good in the first place and closed the beaches?  The ones that somehow think that masks only work for them while in front of the cameras, and that masks magically protect you from the door to your table?  Yeah, let's trust them.
> 
> Amazing you are back to "trust the experts".


Who do you trust?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who do you trust?


In God We Trust!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do you call those that died?





Hüsker Dü said:


> What do you call those that died?


dead, deceased, passed


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You seem to be confused about the difference between epidemiologists and Democratic politicians.
> 
> And no one lied to you about immunity thresholds.   The 70% number was accurate for the disease that existed at the time of the estimate.  It just isn‘t valid for Delta, because Delta didn’t exist back then.
> 
> Did you think they had a crystal ball that could predict what kind of mutations would happen 8 months later?


Oh faucis a democratic politician. Yeah that seems about right

stop making excuses for him though. He admitted he fibbed about the thresholds Because we weren’t ready to hear about it, even pre delta

and even if you are talking just pure epidemiologists they were guilty of bad models (remember exponential growth) and politics (blm good, religion bad) from the beginning.

indeed it’s hard to see who was more responsible for the wrongness— the d politicians or the experts whispering in their ear


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> dead, deceased, passed


No funny little term or nickname?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Oh faucis a democratic politician. Yeah that seems about right
> 
> stop making excuses for him though. He admitted he fibbed about the thresholds Because we weren’t ready to hear about it, even pre delta
> 
> and even if you are talking just pure epidemiologists they were guilty of bad models (remember exponential growth) and politics (blm good, religion bad) from the beginning.
> 
> indeed it’s hard to see who was more responsible for the wrongness— the d politicians or the experts whispering in their ear


For a self-described non-politico you sure are biased.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who do you trust?


No one…that’s my entire Schtick…think critically for yourself based on a whole variety of sources…

otherwise: “I’d like to talk to you about a great opportunity for your dd who is an absolute goat. With my training she’s sure to make the USWNT even though she’s a bencher for your current team. She’s underutilized. It’s only $5000 a year…a bargain considering all the trophies you’ll be getting”


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> No funny little term or nickname?


Why would there be?  They are dead.  I'll leave the cute nickname attribution to others.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> For a self-described non-politico you sure are biased.


like many in Virginia I’m a single issue voter right now

though the ds have been (even to me who has said a lot of the stuff Biden is facing like Afghanistan and inflation was baked in) surprisingly awful so far.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> otherwise: “I’d like to talk to you about a great opportunity for your dd who is an absolute goat. With my training she’s sure to make the USWNT even though she’s a bencher for your current team. She’s underutilized. It’s only $5000 a year…a bargain considering all the trophies you’ll be getting”


Or, "hey you, ya you.  I need goals big time and I need your goals.  Tell you what.  Keep the $5,000 and bring your goals and winning attitude and it will be free and I will make sure you make The List!!!"


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You seem to be confused about the difference between epidemiologists and Democratic politicians.


A casual observer over the last 20 months or so would be hard pressed to know the difference between scientists and political talking heads on MSM.


----------



## crush

This is Dad's America & Espola Neighborhood.  This is what their fighting so hard for.  They want all the kids jabbed too.  



All you fence sitters are to blame too.  Thanks for doing nothing.  Because you sat on your ass and chose the easy and most comfortable option, we have what we have.  Talk about a Crazy Train? I will take the Peace Train all day.  It's not too late to Capitulate.  Darkness or Light? Good or Evil? Fairness or Cheating?  Truth or Lie?  Honest or Fake?  Open or Closed?  Transparency or Magic Show?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who do you trust?


No one, because like I said from the beginning, no one can predict the future, not even GraceT


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> No one, because like I said from the beginning, no one can predict the future, not even GraceT


Predicting the future is like predicting the next measure of a song once you have the worm in your head.  It only has certain ways it can go once you are down a certain path…it follows a structure…though every once in a while it might take an interesting turn. Most people can’t do it because they don’t want to look or they only want to see what they want to or they don’t like the genre. But until the musicians start playing the possibilities are endless and it’s impossible to predict. Given his handle, busker should be better at it than he is.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> like many in Virginia I’m a single issue voter right now
> 
> though the ds have been (even to me who has said a lot of the stuff Biden is facing like Afghanistan and inflation was baked in) surprisingly awful so far.


We are kinda stuck in the middle of the not knowing which way to go party and the rabbit hole party.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> No one…that’s my entire Schtick…think critically for yourself based on a whole variety of sources…
> 
> otherwise: “I’d like to talk to you about a great opportunity for your dd who is an absolute goat. With my training she’s sure to make the USWNT even though she’s a bencher for your current team. She’s underutilized. It’s only $5000 a year…a bargain considering all the trophies you’ll be getting”


As in "I did my own research"?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Predicting the future is like predicting the next measure of a song once you have the worm in your head.  It only has certain ways it can go once you are down a certain path…it follows a structure…though every once in a while it might take an interesting turn. Most people can’t do it because they don’t want to look or they only want to see what they want to or they don’t like the genre. But until the musicians start playing the possibilities are endless and it’s impossible to predict. Given his handle, busker should be better at it than he is.


Researchers and academics are notoriously poor at predictions because they are inherently biased towards identifying individual variables and can isolate variables in the lab.  You can neither control nor isolate variables in the real world.  That's why gut instinct based on experience is often more reliable than a proven mathematical equation.  Hence why GraceT has generally been more accurate than Dad4.

The perfect illustration is how Dad4 always defaults to masks being the reason for one state doing better than another.  Except when there are exceptions so he claims its because its a different virus or alcohol consumption.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity is knowing better but preceding anyways.


Agree.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> There are people who do exactly that kind of analysis.  They've consistently told us what works: vaccines, masks, distance, and being outside.
> 
> Is it their fault if some people here would rather repost Twitter memes than listen to someone who actually knows something?



​
I mentioned yesterday that *Gavin Newsom, faced with a case rate twice as high as Florida's, explained that "there is a seasonality to COVID."*

Now isn't that something.

When Florida's case rate was the higher one, Newsom couldn't criticize the Florida governor enough. He didn't mention seasonality.

So once again, when cases rise in red states, this is because the stupid hicks won't follow the rules. But when they rise in blue states, well, we just don't know what's causing it!

Or, now, as the Florida governor's press secretary describes the media response: Why, I guess it's just COVID season in the blue states!

Incidentally, here's how the _Washington Post_ responded when Ron DeSantis tried explaining seasonality a few months ago:


​






​
Meanwhile, yesterday Congressman Thomas Massie wrote this:


​


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> As in "I did my own research"?


for some things.  Talking to various experts, particularly those of differing opinions, is also useful. The problem with the meritocratic cult though is that it believes it has the all the answers, and then gets offended when they are challenged because it undermines their meritocratic status.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> for some things.  Talking to various experts, particularly those of differing opinions, is also useful. The problem with the meritocratic cult though is that it believes it has the all the answers, and then gets offended when they are challenged because it undermines their meritocratic status.


That is how the Socialist Religion works.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> for some things.  Talking to various experts, particularly those of differing opinions, is also useful. The problem with the meritocratic cult though is that it believes it has the all the answers, and then gets offended when they are challenged because it undermines their meritocratic status.


I never saw meritocracy as a bad thing.

I have a song for you --


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I never saw meritocracy as a bad thing.
> 
> I have a song for you --


Never been a fan of prog rock.  Where is the vomiting emoji?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Never been a fan of prog rock.  Where is the vomiting emoji?


Perhaps you prefer classic rock --


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Perhaps you prefer classic rock --


Much better.  IMHO, the greatest drummer of all time.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Much better.  IMHO, the greatest drummer of all time.


The Who never got amps that went to 11, but Moon had two bass drums --


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Predicting the future is like predicting the next measure of a song once you have the worm in your head.  It only has certain ways it can go once you are down a certain path…it follows a structure…though every once in a while it might take an interesting turn. Most people can’t do it because they don’t want to look or they only want to see what they want to or they don’t like the genre. But until the musicians start playing the possibilities are endless and it’s impossible to predict. Given his handle, busker should be better at it than he is.


God wins, at least that's what I was taught at Sunday School Grace T.  I really want to hope for that but I'm prepared that God actually loses and were all going to be trapped on the planet with Golden Gate as the Warden.  I tried to fight the good fight with my words for the good of the team, but man, this GG is hard opponent.  Tel A Vision is way more powerful then I thought as well.


----------



## dad4

Don’t kid yourselves.  Look at what you repost.  You don’t trust no one.  You trust Twitter.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Don’t kid yourselves.  Look at what you repost.  You don’t trust no one.  You trust Twitter.


Some of that meritocratic resentment shining through I see 

twitters just a tool. The internet is the great leveler of information. It’s why the meritocrats hate it— legal zoom, webmd and khan academy cutting into their business. That’s why the internet cos are trying to restrict the flow of info— so they can tame the tiger again. The ones that resent it the most are the legacy media: it’s cut into both their $ and influence.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Some of that meritocratic resentment shining through I see
> 
> twitters just a tool. The internet is the great leveler of information. It’s why the meritocrats hate it— legal zoom, webmd and khan academy cutting into their business. That’s why the internet cos are trying to restrict the flow of info— so they can tame the tiger again. The ones that resent it the most are the legacy media: it’s cut into both their $ and influence.


A lot of teachers love the Khan Academy, they just have students get on its website and saves them the effort of actually having to teach.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> for some things.  Talking to various experts, particularly those of differing opinions, is also useful. The problem with the meritocratic cult though is that it believes it has the all the answers, and then gets offended when they are challenged because it undermines their meritocratic status.


Your people are still waiting!









						Remember the QAnon believers waiting for JFK Jr. in Dallas? They're still there.
					

JFK Jr. didn't show, obviously, but believers have a new theory.




					www.mysanantonio.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> A lot of teachers love the Khan Academy, they just have students get on its website and saves them the effort of actually having to teach.


Was thinking more of the do it yourself homeschoolers but fair point


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your people are still waiting!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the QAnon believers waiting for JFK Jr. in Dallas? They're still there.
> 
> 
> JFK Jr. didn't show, obviously, but believers have a new theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mysanantonio.com


Ha...what's even funnier is that your people are covering this ridiculous story.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Ha...what's even funnier is that your people are covering this ridiculous story.


I have family there. Yes they are Republicans, but not the anti-America, insurrectionist type, they can’t stand these fools . . . but then again we have some long time friends from further south that might be camping out. They do claim to do things together, lol!
As far as the media goes they gotta keep track of the insurrectionist wherever all ya all go!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have family there. Yes they are Republicans, but not the anti-America, insurrectionist type, they can’t stand these fools . . . but then again we have some long time friends from further south that might be camping out. They do claim to do things together, lol!
> As far as the media goes they gotta keep track of the insurrectionist wherever all ya all go!


I suppose someone has to keep tabs of those sneaky, intelligent, and resourceful  "insurrectionist". Keeping everyone on their toes.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> The Who never got amps that went to 11, but Moon had two bass drums --
> 
> View attachment 12061


Neal Peart, the drum kit alone…


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> Neal Peart, the drum kit alone…


More prog rock.  No thanks.  Maybe a technically better drummer, too clinical whereas Moon had way more rock n roll soul, energy and charisma. (which unfortunately contributed to his demise).


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your people are still waiting!


It seems like things are getting a bit more extreme on both sides… seriously, can neither side primary a reasonable candidate?









						Seattle city attorney rivals face blowback over anti-police tweets, Republican affiliation
					

Seattle voters face a stark choice in the race for city attorney, between Nicole Thomas-Kennedy, who has tweeted hatred of police and cheered property destruction, and Ann Davison, who publicly disavowed the Democratic Party last year.




					www.google.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Some of that meritocratic resentment shining through I see
> 
> twitters just a tool. The internet is the great leveler of information. It’s why the meritocrats hate it— legal zoom, webmd and khan academy cutting into their business. That’s why the internet cos are trying to restrict the flow of info— so they can tame the tiger again. The ones that resent it the most are the legacy media: it’s cut into both their $ and influence.


Meritocratic resentment?


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> More prog rock.  No thanks.  Maybe a technically better drummer, too clinical whereas Moon had way more rock n roll soul, energy and charisma. (which unfortunately contributed to his demise).


Now that might make a fun off-topic (hopefully non-politics) discussion… music style/genre preferences compared to soccer style of play.

Not sure there’s a smooth transition to soccer for the *it’s to technical to be authentic* crowd.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Was thinking more of the do it yourself homeschoolers but fair point


There is an old PBS series named The Mechanical Universe that is a better class than my first- and second-year college physics classes (and I was a physics major at the time).  The Feynman lectures on physics covered a similarly broad scale in the '60s, but it was published in classical textbook style without the benefits of modern graphical presentation.  Another classic is Linus Pauling's The Nature of the Chemical Bond.  If you master all of those and the math that goes with them, you deserve a seat in the meritocracy.



			https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8_xPU5epJddRABXqJ5h5G0dk-XGtA5cZ
		






__





						The Feynman Lectures on Physics
					





					www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu
				








__





						Amazon - The Nature of the Chemical Bond and the Structure of Molecules and Crystals: An Introduction to Mode: Pauling, Linus: 9780801403330: Books
					

Buy The Nature of the Chemical Bond and the Structure of Molecules and Crystals: An Introduction to Mode on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> I suppose someone has to keep tabs of those sneaky, intelligent, and resourceful  "insurrectionist". Keeping everyone on their toes.


“intelligent”? Yeah, and you probably think Rudy Giuliani is sexy.


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> Now that might make a fun off-topic (hopefully non-politics) discussion… music style/genre preferences compared to soccer style of play.
> 
> Not sure there’s a smooth transition to soccer for the *it’s to technical to be authentic* crowd.


Brazil/Moon vs Germany/Peart doesnt exactly fit.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> It seems like things are getting a bit more extreme on both sides… seriously, can neither side primary a reasonable candidate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seattle city attorney rivals face blowback over anti-police tweets, Republican affiliation
> 
> 
> Seattle voters face a stark choice in the race for city attorney, between Nicole Thomas-Kennedy, who has tweeted hatred of police and cheered property destruction, and Ann Davison, who publicly disavowed the Democratic Party last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


The extremist use to be left on an island all on their own.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Some of that meritocratic resentment shining through I see
> 
> twitters just a tool. The internet is the great leveler of information. It’s why the meritocrats hate it— legal zoom, webmd and khan academy cutting into their business. That’s why the internet cos are trying to restrict the flow of info— so they can tame the tiger again. The ones that resent it the most are the legacy media: it’s cut into both their $ and influence.


Meritocracy requires merit.  Twitter has no such requirement.  The competent and the presumptuous post as equals.

If all you want is to find those who already agree with you, Twitter works.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> It seems like things are getting a bit more extreme on both sides… seriously, can neither side primary a reasonable candidate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seattle city attorney rivals face blowback over anti-police tweets, Republican affiliation
> 
> 
> Seattle voters face a stark choice in the race for city attorney, between Nicole Thomas-Kennedy, who has tweeted hatred of police and cheered property destruction, and Ann Davison, who publicly disavowed the Democratic Party last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


To read the article, there is nothing wrong with Davidson other than a willingness to call herself a Republican.

Not the name I choose for myself these days, but hardly disqualifying.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> A casual observer over the last 20 months or so would be hard pressed to know the difference between scientists and political talking heads on MSM.





what-happened said:


> Ha...what's even funnier is that your people are covering this ridiculous story.


Sad but true.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Meritocracy requires merit.  Twitter has no such requirement.  The competent and the presumptuous post as equals.
> 
> If all you want is to find those who already agree with you, Twitter works.


Wow you just really proved my point didn’t you. The snobbery and meritocratic resentment just drips from your post. You sound just like my entitled high school honors class sneering at the presumptuous slacker that dared run for class president 

yeah they are all equal. That’s the point. You never know where genius can come from.

and as for my reading materials, as stated (and as I’ve posted from) before, I read a broad gamut from the nation and guardian on one end, to the American greatness and Ben Shapiro on the other. I follow Scott Gottlieb and joe Rogan.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Don’t kid yourselves.  Look at what you repost.  You don’t trust no one.  You trust Twitter.


Are you worried that people are linking the CDC on twitter?  What are you people afraid of?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Meritocracy requires merit.  Twitter has no such requirement.  The competent and the presumptuous post as equals.
> 
> If all you want is to find those who already agree with you, Twitter works.


Speaking of no merit.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow you just really proved my point didn’t you. The snobbery and meritocratic resentment just drips from your post. You sound just like my entitled high school honors class sneering at the presumptuous slacker that dared run for class president
> 
> yeah they are all equal. That’s the point. You never know where genius can come from.
> 
> and as for my reading materials, as stated (and as I’ve posted from) before, I read a broad gamut from the nation and guardian on one end, to the American greatness and Ben Shapiro on the other. I follow Scott Gottlieb and joe Rogan.


After all the bragging about your accomplishments, why do you still have an inferiority complex?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “intelligent”? Yeah, and you probably think Rudy Giuliani is sexy.


is he vaccinated?  Where is he by the way?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow you just really proved my point didn’t you. The snobbery and meritocratic resentment just drips from your post. You sound just like my entitled high school honors class sneering at the presumptuous slacker that dared run for class president
> 
> yeah they are all equal. That’s the point. You never know where genius can come from.
> 
> and as for my reading materials, as stated (and as I’ve posted from) before, I read a broad gamut from the nation and guardian on one end, to the American greatness and Ben Shapiro on the other. I follow Scott Gottlieb and joe Rogan.


I feel no shame in believing in merit.

Besides, within science, you do know where genius can come from.  It comes from the people who took the time to learn the prerequisites.

For example, next year’s Nobel Prize in Chemistry will go to a chemist.  Or maybe a biochemist.  The Nobel Prize in Chemistry will probably not go to some random guy on Twitter who never took a chemistry class.

Similarly, when I take pharmaceuticals, I take the ones whose safety and efficacy was tested by biostatisticians.  Perhaps you like to roll the dice a little more, and choose to ingest chemicals based on the advice of Twitter.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> Brazil/Moon vs Germany/Peart doesnt exactly fit.


Is it the 1-7 result?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I feel no shame in believing in merit.
> 
> Besides, within science, you do know where genius can come from.  It comes from the people who took the time to learn the prerequisites.
> 
> For example, next year’s Nobel Prize in Chemistry will go to a chemist.  Or maybe a biochemist.  The Nobel Prize in Chemistry will probably not go to some random guy on Twitter who never took a chemistry class.
> 
> Similarly, when I take pharmaceuticals, I take the ones whose safety and efficacy was tested by biostatisticians.  Perhaps you like to roll the dice a little more, and choose to ingest chemicals based on the advice of Twitter.


Even within particular fields there are apostates. and again as we’ve discussed these plucky outsiders bested the so-called experts on the Middle East wars, the 2008 crisis and now covid.

Notice you aren’t even defending knowledge but “merit”. Merit means you deserve your status and respect because you think you earned it. It’s gross, it’s pompous and it’s this attitude which got you trump.  The problem with the meritocracy is that it is more concerned with self preservation than actual service.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> After all the bragging about your accomplishments, why do you still have an inferiority complex?


Wow first time I’ve ever been accused of that one.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Even within particular fields there are apostates. and again as we’ve discussed these plucky outsiders bested the so-called experts on the Middle East wars, the 2008 crisis and now covid.
> 
> Notice you aren’t even defending knowledge but “merit”. Merit means you deserve your status and respect because you think you earned it. It’s gross, it’s pompous and it’s this attitude which got you trump.  The problem with the meritocracy is that it is more concerned with self preservation than actual service.


Jordan Peterson has a cool theory about this too. He thinks all society is structured on the basis of status (it comes from the days where reproductive selection meant everything). Money power fame athlete ability intelligence awards all play into status. The meritocracy is a way of maintaining that status. That’s why believers in that meritocracy will ultimately fall back on censorship, derision and ultimately authoritarianism to preserve it…because it’s an illusion…so threats to it (like trump) need to be squished.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow first time I’ve ever been accused of that one.


Maybe not to your face.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Even within particular fields there are apostates. and again as we’ve discussed these plucky outsiders bested the so-called experts on the Middle East wars, the 2008 crisis and now covid.
> 
> Notice you aren’t even defending knowledge but “merit”. Merit means you deserve your status and respect because you think you earned it. It’s gross, it’s pompous and it’s this attitude which got you trump.  The problem with the meritocracy is that it is more concerned with self preservation than actual service.


Inside-out logic.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Jordan Peterson has a cool theory about this too. He thinks all society is structured on the basis of status (it comes from the days where reproductive selection meant everything). Money power fame athlete ability intelligence awards all play into status. The meritocracy is a way of maintaining that status. That’s why believers in that meritocracy will ultimately fall back on censorship, derision and ultimately authoritarianism to preserve it…because it’s an illusion…so threats to it (like trump) need to be squished.


Cocktail-party psychology (and sociology).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Cocktail-party psychology (and sociology).


yes and no. I remember my college biology class touched on this even before Jordan Peterson popularized it. They couldn’t teach that class today at that college without getting cancelled. Peterson teased out his theories in his college psychology/sociology lectures which were recorded and then went viral. It’s not my area but it is a legitimate line of thought that Peterson has brought to the conservative cocktail party circuit.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Maybe not to your face.


Funny. You’ve lost the road again. That’s not my problem.  Opposite. And plenty of people have told me to my face including my own parents and kids.  It’s astounding how very lost you can get…but that’s why we call you what we do


----------



## crush

Espola, in his past life, talking to Grace T in her past life!


----------



## crush

Now look, it's the weeds fault for all the heart attacks the kiddos are having in record number all of a sudden.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> More prog rock.  No thanks.  Maybe a technically better drummer, too clinical whereas Moon had way more rock n roll soul, energy and charisma. (which unfortunately contributed to his demise).


There's only one greatest drummer. John Henry Bonham


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I feel no shame in believing in merit.
> 
> Besides, within science, you do know where genius can come from.  It comes from the people who took the time to learn the prerequisites.
> 
> For example, next year’s Nobel Prize in Chemistry will go to a chemist.  Or maybe a biochemist.  The Nobel Prize in Chemistry will probably not go to some random guy on Twitter who never took a chemistry class.
> 
> Similarly, when I take pharmaceuticals, I take the ones whose safety and efficacy was tested by biostatisticians.  Perhaps you like to roll the dice a little more, and choose to ingest chemicals based on the advice of Twitter.


Were those “pharmaceuticals” mandated?


----------



## crush

My boy Deano is a great drummer too.  Not the GOAT, but fun guy to hang with back in high school.  Here is with Nick Hernandez ((Common Sense)) playing at LBHS.  Taylor Hawkins from Foo Fighters as well


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Cocktail-party psychology (and sociology).


Speaking of an inferiority complex.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow first time I’ve ever been accused of that one.





Grace T. said:


> Funny. You’ve lost the road again. That’s not my problem.  Opposite. And plenty of people have told me to my face including my own parents and kids.  It’s astounding how very lost you can get…but that’s why we call you what we do


Which is it?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Which is it?


For the love of God, leave her alone man.  My gosh, you & dad already lost the debate.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> There's only one greatest drummer. John Henry Bonham


Solid 2nd choice. 

Netflix has a good documentary on drummers "Count Me In"


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Funny. You’ve lost the road again. That’s not my problem.  Opposite. And plenty of people have told me to my face including my own parents and kids.  It’s astounding how very lost you can get…but that’s why we call you what we do


His 3AM infomercial addiction has disoriented his ability to…..


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> For the love of God, leave her alone man.  My gosh, you & dad already lost the debate.


It’s not a debate.  More like stand up comedy. Just sit back and enjoy the show with Grace.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Which is it?


Funny, she goes back on what she says then says you are the one that’s lost!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny, she goes back on what she says then says you are the one that’s lost!


"Reading comprehension" is a favorite dodge.  Perhaps if it happens so often, it might just be muddy writing.

The world wonders.*

*Nimitz to Halsey, 1944.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Solid 2nd choice.
> 
> Netflix has a good documentary on drummers "Count Me In"


I got about halfway through it before falling asleep.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

@watfly I’m in San Diego. It appears masks are optional in stores. Is that correct?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I got about halfway through it before falling asleep.


3AM infomercial binging is catching up.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> @watfly I’m in San Diego. It appears masks are optional in stores. Is that correct?


Yes, correct.  There may be a rare store that "requires" a mask, but that doesn't seemed to be enforced either.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> @watfly I’m in San Diego. It appears masks are optional in stores. Is that correct?


It is!  ECNL tournament?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> @watfly I’m in San Diego. It appears masks are optional in stores. Is that correct?


Welcome to Socal bro.  San Diego is cool.  LA, hell no!!  My wife and I were asked to leave a pizza joint in Santa Monica last night because we had no mask.  I got triggered but kept it to myself.  Santa Monica is all masked and some.  Basically, gtf out of city if you dont wear a mask.  It's crazy to see the men.  One guy said i was a danger to others, I kid you not.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It is!  ECNL tournament?


Big time ECNL Showcase bro for the uncommitted Vax and Unvaxed players to show their soccer stuff one more time to the coaches.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Yes, correct.  There may be a rare store that "requires" a mask, but that doesn't seemed to be enforced either.


Nice. My wife and I keep toying with the idea of moving to San Diego - the weather, the beach. I know I am just being a whiney little bitch but the weather really is nicer down here than on the SF/SJ peninsula. Every time we come down here we are reminded of that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> It is!  ECNL tournament?


Yes, her last showcase with the oldest age group. It is appropriate that we are down here.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Nice. My wife and I keep toying with the idea of moving to San Diego - the weather, the beach. I know I am just being a whiney little bitch but the weather really is nicer down here than on the SF/SJ peninsula. Every time we come down here we are reminded of that.


It's not just the weather you like you whiney little bitch from Nocal.....lol!  I will look like Gene Simmons today if you want to take a chance and meet crush for the first time.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Welcome to Socal bro.  San Diego is cool.  LA, hell no!!  My wife and I were asked to leave a pizza joint in Santa Monica last night because we had no mask.  I got triggered but kept it to myself.  Santa Monica is all masked and some.  Basically, gtf out of city if you dont wear a mask.  It's crazy to see the men.  One guy said i was a danger to others, I kid you not.


Did you have to wear a mask between bites while eating, or just until you got to your seat?

Also, are they still having issues with people "camping" on the beaches?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you have to wear a mask between bites while eating, or just until you got to your seat?
> 
> Also, are they still having issues with people "camping" on the beaches?


Santa Monic was so beautiful last night.  True LA Story from crush experince.

My wife and I went to SM to do a deep meditation with sounds and other cool stuff to welcome in the 11:11 portal.  We wanted to chow on some wood fire pizza.  We had no clue of what the natives in SM were doing with mandates and we had no mask becuase no one does mask where I from.  Anyway, we walk in and their a huge line and everyone and I mean had mask on.  One of the pizza dudes said, "You can't come in without a mask."  I was like, "oh."  Two local older men said, "You have to leave."  I got triggerred inside and told me wife, "let's this place."  I did give the two wimpy dudes a stair and then said, "Now I know why this country has problems."  Dude smile and we walked out.  My wife was hungry and our mediation was starting in one hour.  She gets into her purse and says, "look, a mask."  So she went back and got in line.  The manager came over and apologized and gave her a mask for me and said, "were so sorry.  We thought you guys were doing a hit job."  I kid you not.  I came back and said sorry, put my ask on, and got a killer pizza.  I think if they offerred a mask at the get go, I put it on with no issues.  It was the smug and elitist attitude that got to me.  BTW, the sound meditation was amazing.   It was about releasing all past wounds from past lives I think.  I felt my William Wallace leave me and now I'm all about the Peace Train brother.  Come find me for a hug.


----------



## Desert Hound

Watch the vid to see how they changed what they want.





__





						Video: FLASHBACK - Dems Promise There Won't Be Vax Mandates | Frontpage Mag
					

Shocker - they all lied! Jesse Kelly lets them have it:




					www.frontpagemag.com


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Watch the vid to see how they changed what they want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video: FLASHBACK - Dems Promise There Won't Be Vax Mandates | Frontpage Mag
> 
> 
> Shocker - they all lied! Jesse Kelly lets them have it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frontpagemag.com


Those lying sack of potatoes.....lol!  You in SoCal bro?  I will admit I wanted to go to Reach 11 and relax and look at some Trailer Parks in AZ.  I'm all about hugs now btw.  I learned last night that everyone needs hugs and some kindness.  With the 6 feet get a way from me rules the last two years and all the small mom & pops diners out of biz, people are not engaging each other the way humans should.


----------



## Desert Hound

And now we move on to the next set of gov demands. The US won't be far behind.









						Will booster shots be required for travel? Some countries already say yes - The Points Guy
					

You got vaccinated, but now some countries are imposing time limits on the COVID-19 vaccines.




					thepointsguy.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Which is it?


Reading comprehension. It’s the opposite of what you originally laid out. And plenty of people have told me that opposite to my face

here’s another difference between you and me: unlike many (including yourself) I’m highly aware of my own flaws.  Here’s a clue: declaring I’m highly aware (unlike many) is a sign of my flaw.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Yes, correct.  There may be a rare store that "requires" a mask, but that doesn't seemed to be enforced either.


The only one I've seen is Marukai in Kearney Mesa


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Welcome to Socal bro.  San Diego is cool.  LA, hell no!!  My wife and I were asked to leave a pizza joint in Santa Monica last night because we had no mask.  I got triggered but kept it to myself.  Santa Monica is all masked and some.  Basically, gtf out of city if you dont wear a mask.  It's crazy to see the men.  One guy said i was a danger to others, I kid you not.


Proof that mask don't work.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension. It’s the opposite of what you originally laid out. And plenty of people have told me that opposite to my face
> 
> here’s another difference between you and me: unlike many (including yourself) I’m highly aware of my own flaws.  Here’s a clue: declaring I’m highly aware (unlike many) is a sign of my flaw.


The world wwonders.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you have to wear a mask between bites while eating, or just until you got to your seat?
> 
> Also, are they still having issues with people "camping" on the beaches?


We've been camping twice at San Onofre on the military side.  No issues.  Public sites seem to be fine issueless as well.  No mask required at eateries.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> And now we move on to the next set of gov demands. The US won't be far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will booster shots be required for travel? Some countries already say yes - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> You got vaccinated, but now some countries are imposing time limits on the COVID-19 vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com


More proof that vaccines don't work as well as the immune system that has been to battle with the Corona virus long before the experts arrived on the scene.


----------



## Grace T.

O.k. Team Safety, I need your help on something...... to see if this idea can be destroyed.  In this video, John Campbell explains that Ivermectin works along the same basic structural ideas as the new Pfizer and Merck drugs.  They are different molecules.  But the mechanism is the same.  Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption than the new drugs, but basically it does the same trick.  Campbell has been very pro government throughout all this, criticizing the antimaskers, antivaxxers, and antilockdowners, so it's surprising for him to suggest that governments have recklessly killed millions for the sake of protecting drug company profits.  Furthermore, with much of the third world unable to afford the new drugs, but able to afford the out of patent Ivermectin, it's going to cost more lives.  What does he get wrong?  Is this just a conspiracy theory, and if so why?  Please do your best, if you are able, at tearing him down.  Because otherwise this is one of the biggest scandals in human history (with lives basically thrown away) and it falls on the heads of some pretty big sacred cows including Fauci/NIH, the WHO, and the EMA.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> O.k. Team Safety, I need your help on something...... to see if this idea can be destroyed.  In this video, John Campbell explains that Ivermectin works along the same basic structural ideas as the new Pfizer and Merck drugs.  They are different molecules.  But the mechanism is the same.  Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption than the new drugs, but basically it does the same trick.  Campbell has been very pro government throughout all this, criticizing the antimaskers, antivaxxers, and antilockdowners, so it's surprising for him to suggest that governments have recklessly killed millions for the sake of protecting drug company profits.  Furthermore, with much of the third world unable to afford the new drugs, but able to afford the out of patent Ivermectin, it's going to cost more lives.  What does he get wrong?  Is this just a conspiracy theory, and if so why?  Please do your best, if you are able, at tearing him down.  Because otherwise this is one of the biggest scandals in human history (with lives basically thrown away) and it falls on the heads of some pretty big sacred cows including Fauci/NIH, the WHO, and the EMA.


I didn't click, but there is a paper that showed that, for in vitro cultured cells, IVM at high concentration can block viral entry to some extent by targeting the S-Ace2 receptor interaction, much as it has been shown to disrupt cell entry for other viruses.  that is the "same mechanism" you are talking about.  The problem, from a physiological standpoint, is delivering the drug at an efficacious concentration to the necessary site of action, which in this case is the external surface of epithelial cells lining your respiratory track, requires a very high circulating concentration.  Since IVM is metabolized and cleared rapidly, there are studies showing that it may not be possible to sustain the necessary circulating concentration for a pharmacologically relevant period of time.  As has been discussed here, at high concentrations IVM can also cross the blood brain barrier and enter the central nervous system, at which site it is a rather potent neurotoxin because it can target the receptors involved in neuronal signalling. So there is a drug targeting problem with IVM for respiratory viruses.  Snorting IVM might be one possibility; I imagine somebody is trying it.  

Rather than preventing infection, it's possible that IVM may be of value at high concentration at limiting infections once they become more systemic, or once the permeability of the aveolar epithelium becomes altered due to immune cell infiltration as a Cov-2 infection really gets going.  Because IVM can disrupt so many types of small molecule/receptor interactions, it is also a good anti-inflmmatory, and it's clear at this point that IVM can work like some of the other anti-inflammatories that are being used to treat COVID.  

For the rest of it, going from "Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption" to the all rest of it, others can play with it if they think it has any relevance.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> O.k. Team Safety, I need your help on something...... to see if this idea can be destroyed.  In this video, John Campbell explains that Ivermectin works along the same basic structural ideas as the new Pfizer and Merck drugs.  They are different molecules.  But the mechanism is the same.  Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption than the new drugs, but basically it does the same trick.  Campbell has been very pro government throughout all this, criticizing the antimaskers, antivaxxers, and antilockdowners, so it's surprising for him to suggest that governments have recklessly killed millions for the sake of protecting drug company profits.  Furthermore, with much of the third world unable to afford the new drugs, but able to afford the out of patent Ivermectin, it's going to cost more lives.  What does he get wrong?  Is this just a conspiracy theory, and if so why?  Please do your best, if you are able, at tearing him down.  Because otherwise this is one of the biggest scandals in human history (with lives basically thrown away) and it falls on the heads of some pretty big sacred cows including Fauci/NIH, the WHO, and the EMA.


At the micro level, as explored in this video, ivermectin is shown to be effective at attacking some specific steps in the viral infection process.  

At the macro level, as in drug effectiveness and safety trials in actual humans, it is not.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> At the micro level, as explored in this video, ivermectin is shown to be effective at attacking some specific steps in the viral infection process.
> 
> At the macro level, as in drug effectiveness and safety trials in actual humans, it is not.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> At the micro level, as explored in this video, ivermectin is shown to be effective at attacking some specific steps in the viral infection process.
> 
> At the macro level, as in drug effectiveness and safety trials in actual humans, it is not.





dad4 said:


> View attachment 12065


Disappointed.  a. we know Ivermectin is safe to use at certain doses in human, b. some of the trials have shown an impact at the doses used in humans, and c. people have been talking Ivermectin since summer of last year so there's been plenty of time to get that data done.  So the claim is that at doses which have been shown to be safe for human consumption for other purposes, Ivermectin does something (maybe not as much as the 2 new drugs which are specifically targeted, but something).  And something (when we had nothing) would have been great, and still might be useful for countries that can't afford the 2 new drugs.

Didn't really expect much for espola, but did from dad4.  Seriously, I'm looking for reasoning why Campbell is wrong...I could have done this.  The only thing this illustrates is yes, it's right, but the dosing required is too high but there's no facts in evidence supporting that contention.  Maybe the other 2 will show up.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> At the micro level, as explored in this video, ivermectin is shown to be effective at attacking some specific steps in the viral infection process.
> 
> At the macro level, as in drug effectiveness and safety trials in actual humans, it is not.


Mandate IVM and lets see how effective it is.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I didn't click, but there is a paper that showed that, for in vitro cultured cells, IVM at high concentration can block viral entry to some extent by targeting the S-Ace2 receptor interaction, much as it has been shown to disrupt cell entry for other viruses.  that is the "same mechanism" you are talking about.  The problem, from a physiological standpoint, is delivering the drug at an efficacious concentration to the necessary site of action, which in this case is the external surface of epithelial cells lining your respiratory track, requires a very high circulating concentration.  Since IVM is metabolized and cleared rapidly, there are studies showing that it may not be possible to sustain the necessary circulating concentration for a pharmacologically relevant period of time.  As has been discussed here, at high concentrations IVM can also cross the blood brain barrier and enter the central nervous system, at which site it is a rather potent neurotoxin because it can target the receptors involved in neuronal signalling. So there is a drug targeting problem with IVM for respiratory viruses.  Snorting IVM might be one possibility; I imagine somebody is trying it.
> 
> Rather than preventing infection, it's possible that IVM may be of value at high concentration at limiting infections once they become more systemic, or once the permeability of the aveolar epithelium becomes altered due to immune cell infiltration as a Cov-2 infection really gets going.  Because IVM can disrupt so many types of small molecule/receptor interactions, it is also a good anti-inflmmatory, and it's clear at this point that IVM can work like some of the other anti-inflammatories that are being used to treat COVID.
> 
> For the rest of it, going from "Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption" to the all rest of it, others can play with it if they think it has any relevance.


Unlike the other two this is useful, thanks.  The "may not' be possible gives me pause considering some of the result tracking studies that came out.  The argument Campbell makes isn't about preventing infections but limiting them.  The take away I get from your breakdown, is it may very well work to limit infection at the safe doses, but not very well but: a) we don't know for sure yet (which in my mind is a clear failure of the public health authorities...they've known this for a while and we know Fauci has been funneling money in certain ways) and b) not very efficiently (which is fine, but the argument is at the time we didn't have anything else and much of the 3rd world still doesn't have anything else).  The conclusion which would hold out is so long as the dosing is kept safe, what would it do harm, since there is the possibility it seems to help.  Thanks!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> View attachment 12065


But only if you're using government mandated silver bullets.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Disappointed.  a. we know Ivermectin is safe to use at certain doses in human, b. some of the trials have shown an impact at the doses used in humans, and c. people have been talking Ivermectin since summer of last year so there's been plenty of time to get that data done.  So the claim is that at doses which have been shown to be safe for human consumption for other purposes, Ivermectin does something (maybe not as much as the 2 new drugs which are specifically targeted, but something).  And something (when we had nothing) would have been great, and still might be useful for countries that can't afford the 2 new drugs.
> 
> Didn't really expect much for espola, but did from dad4.  Seriously, I'm looking for reasoning why Campbell is wrong...I could have done this.  The only thing this illustrates is yes, it's right, but the dosing required is too high but there's no facts in evidence supporting that contention.  Maybe the other 2 will show up.


As usual, I didn't see anything wrong with the Campbell video.  As usual, I found fault with the emotional conclusions you jumped to as a result.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> As usual, I didn't see anything wrong with the Campbell video.  As usual, I found fault with the emotional conclusions you jumped to as a result.


Then you didn't watch to the end.  He essentially suggests a conspiracy and unusual for him gets emotional.  Seriously, espola, how clueless are you???


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Unlike the other two this is useful, thanks.  The "may not' be possible gives me pause considering some of the result tracking studies that came out.  The argument Campbell makes isn't about preventing infections but limiting them.  The take away I get from your breakdown, is it may very well work to limit infection at the safe doses, but not very well but: a) we don't know for sure yet (which in my mind is a clear failure of the public health authorities...they've known this for a while and we know Fauci has been funneling money in certain ways) and b) not very efficiently (which is fine, but the argument is at the time we didn't have anything else and much of the 3rd world still doesn't have anything else).  The conclusion which would hold out is so long as the dosing is kept safe, what would it do harm, since there is the possibility it seems to help.  Thanks!


To the cynical, it would appear that ivermectin will reduce the incidence of covid deaths because the patients will die from ivermectin poisoning first.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Then you didn't watch to the end.  He essentially suggests a conspiracy and unusual for him gets emotional.  Seriously, espola, how clueless are you???


"You're not a horse, you're not a cow" etc.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> To the cynical, it would appear that ivermectin will reduce the incidence of covid deaths because the patients will die from ivermectin poisoning first.


wow you are in a rush to prove how clueless you really are today.  Ivermectin has been taken by people around the world safely for years.  The question, as evil goalie has framed it, is whether at the doses which are safe for human consumption (how far has this been pushed?) does it do anything to help (and if so how much)? 

p.s. as an aside, if we knew that (which by this point we really really should), wouldn't it be fun to have the debate is ivermectin more efficient than masks?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Disappointed.  a. we know Ivermectin is safe to use at certain doses in human, b. some of the trials have shown an impact at the doses used in humans, and c. people have been talking Ivermectin since summer of last year so there's been plenty of time to get that data done.  So the claim is that at doses which have been shown to be safe for human consumption for other purposes, Ivermectin does something (maybe not as much as the 2 new drugs which are specifically targeted, but something).  And something (when we had nothing) would have been great, and still might be useful for countries that can't afford the 2 new drugs.
> 
> Didn't really expect much for espola, but did from dad4.  Seriously, I'm looking for reasoning why Campbell is wrong...I could have done this.  The only thing this illustrates is yes, it's right, but the dosing required is too high but there's no facts in evidence supporting that contention.  Maybe the other 2 will show up.


Why would you think a math teacher or a lawyer has the requisite skills to assess drug safety and effectiveness?

My stats are not up to the task.  Your stats are definitely not up to the task.  

We train biostatisticians for a reason.  Why not listen to them?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I didn't click, but there is a paper that showed that, for in vitro cultured cells, IVM at high concentration can block viral entry to some extent by targeting the S-Ace2 receptor interaction, much as it has been shown to disrupt cell entry for other viruses.  that is the "same mechanism" you are talking about.  The problem, from a physiological standpoint, is delivering the drug at an efficacious concentration to the necessary site of action, which in this case is the external surface of epithelial cells lining your respiratory track, requires a very high circulating concentration.  Since IVM is metabolized and cleared rapidly, there are studies showing that it may not be possible to sustain the necessary circulating concentration for a pharmacologically relevant period of time.  As has been discussed here, at high concentrations IVM can also cross the blood brain barrier and enter the central nervous system, at which site it is a rather potent neurotoxin because it can target the receptors involved in neuronal signalling. So there is a drug targeting problem with IVM for respiratory viruses.  Snorting IVM might be one possibility; I imagine somebody is trying it.
> 
> Rather than preventing infection, it's possible that IVM may be of value at high concentration at limiting infections once they become more systemic, or once the permeability of the aveolar epithelium becomes altered due to immune cell infiltration as a Cov-2 infection really gets going.  Because IVM can disrupt so many types of small molecule/receptor interactions, it is also a good anti-inflmmatory, and it's clear at this point that IVM can work like some of the other anti-inflammatories that are being used to treat COVID.
> 
> For the rest of it, going from "Ivermectin may very well be less efficient at the doses safe for human consumption" to the all rest of it, others can play with it if they think it has any relevance.


IVM isn't a silver bullet.  If it was it would have been mandated.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> To the cynical, it would appear that ivermectin will reduce the incidence of covid deaths because the patients will die from ivermectin poisoning first.


Coo coo.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would you think a math teacher or a lawyer has the requisite skills to assess drug safety and effectiveness?
> 
> My stats are not up to the task.  Your stats are definitely not up to the task.
> 
> We train biostatisticians for a reason.  Why not listen to them?


What a novel idea.  You've ignored them from the beginning.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why would you think a math teacher or a lawyer has the requisite skills to assess drug safety and effectiveness?
> 
> My stats are not up to the task.  Your stats are definitely not up to the task.
> 
> We train biostatisticians for a reason.  Why not listen to them?


I appreciation your admission of your limitations, but as you know I'm not asking for an assessment of drug safety or effectiveness.  Now that evil goalie has graciously pointed the way and framed the argument, I'm asking if anyone is aware of how far drug safety has been pushed (we've known for years it safe) and the effectiveness of such doses.  Again, thinking people....and if Campbell is right, it's a huge scandal.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I appreciation your admission of your limitations, but as you know I'm not asking for an assessment of drug safety or effectiveness.  Now that evil goalie has graciously pointed the way and framed the argument, I'm asking if anyone is aware of how far drug safety has been pushed (we've known for years it safe) and the effectiveness of such doses.  Again, thinking people....and if Campbell is right, it's a huge scandal.


p.s. by the same token I'm surprised you are finally admitting you have no opinion about masks because you aren't an engineer or infectious disease specialist.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> wow you are in a rush to prove how clueless you really are today.  Ivermectin has been taken by people around the world safely for years.  The question, as evil goalie has framed it, is whether at the doses which are safe for human consumption (how far has this been pushed?) does it do anything to help (and if so how much)?
> 
> p.s. as an aside, if we knew that (which by this point we really really should), wouldn't it be fun to have the debate is ivermectin more efficient than masks?


Do we have to go back over five months of posts?  Ivermectin has been shown to be effective against other afflictions at dosages that have been shown to have little effect on covid.

You mentioned earlier that you take advice from Joe Rogan.  It shows.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Do we have to go back over five months of posts?  Ivermectin has been shown to be effective against other afflictions at dosages that have been shown to have little effect on covid.
> 
> You mentioned earlier that you take advice from Joe Rogan.  It shows.


a. Do we have to go back over five months of posts?  There have been some studies that have shown effects on patients at the doses.  Some of which have been cited by Campbell himself.
b. Evil Goalie did a good framing.  The question is how far have they pushed the Ivermectin doses to determine safety v. efficiency.
c. I never said I too "advice" from Joe Rogan.  It's one of the sources of media I take in, same as Scott Gottlieb who I also mentioned.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> p.s. by the same token I'm surprised you are finally admitting you have no opinion about masks because you aren't an engineer or infectious disease specialist.


If you listen closely, I mostly defer to the people who do have those qualifications.  The vast majority advise me to wear a mask, so I do.

What I don’t do is post a video of some guy with a can of WD40, and claim that it proves something about how respiratory diseases spread.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. Do we have to go back over five months of posts?  There have been some studies that have shown effects on patients at the doses.  Some of which have been cited by Campbell himself.
> b. Evil Goalie did a good framing.  The question is how far have they pushed the Ivermectin doses to determine safety v. efficiency.
> c. I never said I too "advice" from Joe Rogan.  It's one of the sources of media I take in, same as Scott Gottlieb who I also mentioned.


Isn't Joe Rogan leading the ivermectin crusade right now?  Ask Aaron Rodgers.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you listen closely, I mostly defer to the people who do have those qualifications.  The vast majority advise me to wear a mask, so I do.
> 
> What I don’t do is post a video of some guy with a can of WD40, and claim that it proves something about how respiratory diseases spread.


Ah so you just trust the majority of experts even when there is a dissenting minority.  Got it...you would have been a flat earther pre Renaissance.  Nice.

We need to invent a new category in the meritocracy for you: a majoritarian meritocrat or something.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Isn't Joe Rogan leading the ivermectin crusade right now?  Ask Aaron Rodgers.


did I miss a meeting where they voted on the leader?  Can I attend to observe?  You have dets?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Nice. My wife and I keep toying with the idea of moving to San Diego - the weather, the beach. I know I am just being a whiney little bitch but the weather really is nicer down here than on the SF/SJ peninsula. Every time we come down here we are reminded of that.


Well I'm biased, but San Diego is awesome.  It is definitely not LA or Bay Area.  LA has turned into a shithole and the Bay Area is a failed social experiment.  We have a buffer called Camp Pendleton that separates us from a lot of lunacy.  San Diego is chill compared to SF/LA/OC.  San Diegans biggest concern is the weather.  It varies by area but most people regardless of race and economics are generally moderate.  I'd also say we're more culturally integrated than most cities.  Mask, no mask it doesn't matter, we mind our own business.  Very little of the nanny state crap you see in NoCal.  Traffic is relatively light compared to LA and SF.

San Diego is not perfect but it has a lot to offer.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> did I miss a meeting where they voted on the leader?  Can I attend to observe?  You have dets?


p.s. if the answer is "Ivermectin helps, but very little, at least at the doses safe for human consumption, so you are much better off taking the new pills (which for comparison sake because they are more targeted are x times as effective) or getting vaccinated (which for comparison sake is x times as effective in preventing severe illness)" that would have been a great clarification to have.  Then maybe, armed with these facts, Gupta goes in and doesn't get his clocked cleaned by Rogan by focusing on horse dewormer because they are talking about actual data instead of scoring political points.  Maybe then some thinking people say hey I should rethink this.

But that's not what the government did.  The government chose not to funnel money to prioritize Ivermectin to get this answer (instead prioritizing money to big Pharma).  What's more is the government has been slow walking or maybe even trying to obscure data that shows the vaccines aren't as effective (either against transmission or serious disease [the later at least in elderly and immunocompromised]) than originally thought.

What's worse is the same problem exists with the dialogue with masks.  So you have people like the Atlantic writer going around thinking masks are this wonderful talisman that will protect them and then they get all disappointed when they catch something because they've been sitting for hours on a plane next to a sick person.  And you have that wonderful statement by the CDC director that masks are 80% effective...if they are 80% effective why would anyone who is scared of the mRNA vaccines (Novavax having been slow walked) change their mind and take them given the data of declining effectiveness (whether due to Delta or time)....masks are better than vaccines!!!

The public health experts have done an awful job, and Campbell's right, whatever the data eventually holds, how they've handled this has been sheer idiocy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ah so you just trust the majority of experts even when there is a dissenting minority.  Got it...you would have been a flat earther pre Renaissance.  Nice.
> 
> We need to invent a new category in the meritocracy for you: a majoritarian meritocrat or something.


Galileo was an accomplished scientist and mathematician.  Chair of mathematics at one of the world’s major universities.  A quarter century of major publications.

So far, I don’t see any anti-mask advocate with that kind of credibility.  Closest you have are the BG declaration folks- but that text is more pro-opening than anti-mask.  

What you have are unqualified nutters who think that, in order to be Galileo, all you need to do is disagree.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Galileo was an accomplished scientist and mathematician.  Chair of mathematics at one of the world’s major universities.  A quarter century of major publications.
> 
> So far, I don’t see any anti-mask advocate with that kind of credibility.  Closest you have are the BG declaration folks- but that text is more pro-opening than anti-mask.
> 
> What you have are unqualified nutters who think that, in order to be Galileo, all you need to do is disagree.


Debate #3: Should healthy health care workers (particularly young ones <40) be mandated to receive boosters? I would argue no; evidence that this strategy will protect their patients is absent, and moreover current rates of nosocomial transmission are already so low it will be hard to improve on. The argument it is needed to ensure a work force in the winter season is undermined by mandates which result in some people being fired (i.e. further lowering work force)

Debate #4: Should the AAP and CDC continue to recommend we mask 2-year olds against the World Health Organization advice? Uh… no. We have to finally admit we never had evidence for this policy.

Debate #5: Should schools continue to have masking mandates? The CDC should have tested this policy with cluster RCT, but already the day to sunset it has come. It should end promptly.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Galileo was an accomplished scientist and mathematician.  Chair of mathematics at one of the world’s major universities.  A quarter century of major publications.
> 
> So far, I don’t see any anti-mask advocate with that kind of credibility.  Closest you have are the BG declaration folks- but that text is more pro-opening than anti-mask.
> 
> What you have are unqualified nutters who think that, in order to be Galileo, all you need to do is disagree.


The qualifications in those days were found in the Holy Bible. 

From what I'm hearing, apparently while you are not capable of reaching an independent conclusion on a variety of subjects based on the info the experts present, whether Ivermectin or masks, who are certain capable of determining who is an expert and who is a good expert that should be listened to and who is not, particularly if said person is in the majority.

Typical of the meritocracy.

Part of the problem with experts is they don't have full information.  So the epidemiologist with masks may not have the background in child psychology, the environment, or engineering to make a valid recommendation.  Same with shuttering schools.  Experts are so siloed, if you want to make policy based on expertise, deferring to 1 individual aint a way to do it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The qualifications in those days were found in the Holy Bible.
> 
> From what I'm hearing, apparently while you are not capable of reaching an independent conclusion on a variety of subjects based on the info the experts present, whether Ivermectin or masks, who are certain capable of determining who is an expert and who is a good expert that should be listened to and who is not, particularly if said person is in the majority.
> 
> Typical of the meritocracy.


Are you still upset that you are inferior to the meritocracy (whatever that is in your head)?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Ah so you just trust the majority of experts even when there is a dissenting minority.  Got it...you would have been a flat earther pre Renaissance.  Nice.
> 
> We need to invent a new category in the meritocracy for you: a majoritarian meritocrat or something.


Galileo did not disagree with the Pope about the world being round.  He disagreed that it was the center of all creation.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The qualifications in those days were found in the Holy Bible.
> 
> From what I'm hearing, apparently while you are not capable of reaching an independent conclusion on a variety of subjects based on the info the experts present, whether Ivermectin or masks, who are certain capable of determining who is an expert and who is a good expert that should be listened to and who is not, particularly if said person is in the majority.
> 
> Typical of the meritocracy.
> 
> Part of the problem with experts is they don't have full information.  So the epidemiologist with masks may not have the background in child psychology, the environment, or engineering to make a valid recommendation.  Same with shuttering schools.  Experts are so siloed, if you want to make policy based on expertise, deferring to 1 individual aint a way to do it.


This isn’t just one individual.  It’s darn near all of them.  Is there anyone of note who argues that the general public are better off without masks?

I’ll take any epidemiologist who has 2 decades of publications and a senior position at a major research institution.  Is there even one qualified person who takes that position?

If you have no grey hair on your side, then you aren’t Galileo.  You’re more like the creationists who want to “teach the controversy” about evolutionary biology.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> This isn’t just one individual.  It’s darn near all of them.  Is there anyone of note who argues that the general public are better off without masks?
> 
> I’ll take any epidemiologist who has 2 decades of publications and a senior position at a major research institution.  Is there even one qualified person who takes that position?
> 
> If you have no grey hair on your side, then you aren’t Galileo.  You’re more like the creationists who want to “teach the controversy” about evolutionary biology.


Being qualified and being right are two separate things.   The last two years of "expert" opinions certainly proves that point.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> This isn’t just one individual.  It’s darn near all of them.  Is there anyone of note who argues that the general public are better off without masks?
> 
> I’ll take any epidemiologist who has 2 decades of publications and a senior position at a major research institution.  Is there even one qualified person who takes that position?
> 
> If you have no grey hair on your side, then you aren’t Galileo.  You’re more like the creationists who want to “teach the controversy” about evolutionary biology.


Sure. Europe and many pediatricians do not believe children should be masked. There’s disagreement over the age but us health experts are in the minority

vaccinating kids is another example

but you seem to default to us and blue state authorities. How’d you reach those conclusions?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The qualifications in those days were found in the Holy Bible.
> 
> From what I'm hearing, apparently while you are not capable of reaching an independent conclusion on a variety of subjects based on the info the experts present, whether Ivermectin or masks, who are certain capable of determining who is an expert and who is a good expert that should be listened to and who is not, particularly if said person is in the majority.
> 
> Typical of the meritocracy.
> 
> Part of the problem with experts is they don't have full information.  So the epidemiologist with masks may not have the background in child psychology, the environment, or engineering to make a valid recommendation.  Same with shuttering schools.  Experts are so siloed, if you want to make policy based on expertise, deferring to 1 individual aint a way to do it.


Tyrants like to justify themselves as more than that.  Their meritocracy is awarded by self.  The self anointed, Sowell calls them.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Sure. Europe and many pediatricians do not believe children should be masked. There’s disagreement over the age but us health experts are in the minority
> 
> vaccinating kids is another example
> 
> but you seem to default to us and blue state authorities. How’d you reach those conclusions?


General public.  Not just pediatric.

Is there anyone qualified who argues that we would be better off if people like you and I did not wear masks?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> This isn’t just one individual.  It’s darn near all of them.  Is there anyone of note who argues that the general public are better off without masks?
> 
> I’ll take any epidemiologist who has 2 decades of publications and a senior position at a major research institution.  Is there even one qualified person who takes that position?
> 
> If you have no grey hair on your side, then you aren’t Galileo.  You’re more like the creationists who want to “teach the controversy” about evolutionary biology.


Mandates mute all arguments for freedom.  Get off the fence and Embrace your inner tyrant and fascism.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> Unlike the other two this is useful, thanks.  The "may not' be possible gives me pause considering some of the result tracking studies that came out.  The argument Campbell makes isn't about preventing infections but limiting them.  The take away I get from your breakdown, is it may very well work to limit infection at the safe doses, but not very well but: a) we don't know for sure yet (which in my mind is a clear failure of the public health authorities...they've known this for a while and we know Fauci has been funneling money in certain ways) and b) not very efficiently (which is fine, but the argument is at the time we didn't have anything else and much of the 3rd world still doesn't have anything else).  The conclusion which would hold out is so long as the dosing is kept safe, what would it do harm, since there is the possibility it seems to help.  Thanks!


And if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, what impact would that have on the above? 









						COVID-19 is a vascular disease not a respiratory one, says study
					

This could explain blood clots in some COVID patients and other issues like "COVID feet", which are not classic symptoms of a respiratory illness.




					www.google.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> General public.  Not just pediatric.
> 
> Is there anyone qualified who argues that we would be better off if people like you and I did not wear masks?


Y


dad4 said:


> General public.  Not just pediatric.
> 
> Is there anyone qualified who argues that we would be better off if people like you and I did not wear masks?


So much for stats.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Do we have to go back over five months of posts?  Ivermectin has been shown to be effective against other afflictions at dosages that have been shown to have little effect on covid.
> 
> You mentioned earlier that you take advice from Joe Rogan.  It shows.


IVM discussion is interesting on so many levels.  The reality is that it's being prescribed all over the world for covid.  The controversial way it's been reported on in the US should give everyone pause.  Sometimes it works, some times it doesn't.  When it works does it really work?  Hard to tell but seems to work.  There are clinical trials currently underway.  All of the studies have been half assed for many reasons.  It's also extremely safe, one of the safest drugs ever produced.  That should count for something (and it does in the eyes of many providers who prescribe it).  There isn't a real good scientfic reason for better trials outside of the low ROI.  

The fact is it's ridiculously cheap to make.  That alone makes it not very attractive to anyone that want's to make a buck or two.  It's quite interesting to see how quckly it was demonized.  Big Macs,  Ds, 70oz drinks, and Canes Chicken are more dangerous than IVM.  Oh the irony ----it's easier to get the vaccine then to get healthy.  Here is your burger with your booster.  Say it out  loud 10 times and you'll see how easy it is to become a lemming.


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> And if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, what impact would that have on the above?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a vascular disease not a respiratory one, says study
> 
> 
> This could explain blood clots in some COVID patients and other issues like "COVID feet", which are not classic symptoms of a respiratory illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


This has been a thing for over a year.  Some have been sounding the alarm since the beginning.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> IVM discussion is interesting on so many levels.  The reality is that it's being prescribed all over the world for covid.  The controversial way it's been reported on in the US should give everyone pause.  Sometimes it works, some times it doesn't.  When it works does it really work?  Hard to tell but seems to work.  There are clinical trials currently underway.  All of the studies have been half assed for many reasons.  It's also extremely safe, one of the safest drugs ever produced.  That should count for something (and it does in the eyes of many providers who prescribe it).  There isn't a real good scientfic reason for better trials outside of the low ROI.
> 
> The fact is it's ridiculously cheap to make.  That alone makes it not very attractive to anyone that want's to make a buck or two.  It's quite interesting to see how quckly it was demonized.  Big Macs,  Ds, 70oz drinks, and Canes Chicken are more dangerous than IVM.  Oh the irony ----it's easier to get the vaccine then to get healthy.  Here is your burger with your booster.  Say it out  loud 10 times and you'll see how easy it is to become a lemming.


Reality?

To sum up, here are three reasons why you should not use ivermectin to try to prevent COVID-19:

*Ivermectin is not proven to be effective for COVID-19.*
*Using ivermectin not as it was intended can cause a variety of health risks, even death.*
*You are not a horse or a cow and a large dose of ivermectin is highly toxic.*









						3 Reasons Not to Use Ivermectin for COVID-19
					

Using ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, to treat or prevent COVID-19 is up there with swallowing bleach and blow drying your face, it does not work and can cause serious harm.




					www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> And if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, what impact would that have on the above?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a vascular disease not a respiratory one, says study
> 
> 
> This could explain blood clots in some COVID patients and other issues like "COVID feet", which are not classic symptoms of a respiratory illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Your link is broken.


----------



## N00B

Still works for me, even out of your quoted post.



espola said:


> Your link is broken.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Still works for me, even out of your quoted post.


Here are the first few lines of what I see --

/* cyrillic-ext */
@font-face {
  font-family: 'Open Sans';
  font-style: normal;
  font-weight: 400;
  font-stretch: 100%;
  font-display: swap;
  src: url(https://fonts.gstatic.com/s/opensans/v27/memvYaGs126MiZpBA-UvWbX2vVnXBbObj2OVTSKmu1aB.woff2) format('woff2');
  unicode-range: U+0460-052F, U+1C80-1C88, U+20B4, U+2DE0-2DFF, U+A640-A69F, U+FE2E-FE2F;
}
/* cyrillic */
@font-face {
  font-family: 'Open Sans';
  font-style: normal;
  font-weight: 400;
  font-stretch: 100%;
  font-display: swap;
  src: url(https://fonts.gstatic.com/s/opensans/v27/memvYaGs126MiZpBA-UvWbX2vVnXBbObj2OVTSumu1aB.woff2) format('woff2');
  unicode-range: U+0400-045F, U+0490-0491, U+04B0-04B1, U+2116;
}


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Here are the first few lines of what I see --
> 
> /* cyrillic-ext */
> @font-face {
> font-family: 'Open Sans';
> font-style: normal;
> font-weight: 400;
> font-stretch: 100%;
> font-display: swap;
> src: url(https://fonts.gstatic.com/s/opensans/v27/memvYaGs126MiZpBA-UvWbX2vVnXBbObj2OVTSKmu1aB.woff2) format('woff2');
> unicode-range: U+0460-052F, U+1C80-1C88, U+20B4, U+2DE0-2DFF, U+A640-A69F, U+FE2E-FE2F;
> }
> /* cyrillic */
> @font-face {
> font-family: 'Open Sans';
> font-style: normal;
> font-weight: 400;
> font-stretch: 100%;
> font-display: swap;
> src: url(https://fonts.gstatic.com/s/opensans/v27/memvYaGs126MiZpBA-UvWbX2vVnXBbObj2OVTSumu1aB.woff2) format('woff2');
> unicode-range: U+0400-045F, U+0490-0491, U+04B0-04B1, U+2116;
> }


Since you’re curious you could try:









						Coronavirus not respiratory disease but vascular illness, claims UC San Diego study
					

According to research, it was found that COVID-19 is not a respiratory disease but a vascular illness, that is caused by a spike of S protein in body




					www.google.com
				




or just google UC San Diego study on Covid-19 as a vascular disease.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Since you’re curious you could try:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus not respiratory disease but vascular illness, claims UC San Diego study
> 
> 
> According to research, it was found that COVID-19 is not a respiratory disease but a vascular illness, that is caused by a spike of S protein in body
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or just google UC San Diego study on Covid-19 as a vascular disease.


Then if you’re up to it… figure out if all of your horse paste dosing articles are remotely relevant to dosing standards to deal with vascular diseases that cause inflammation that are triggered by the same S-protein.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> General public.  Not just pediatric.
> 
> Is there anyone qualified who argues that we would be better off if people like you and I did not wear masks?


Is this a concession from you that we shouldn't be masking kids

And yes there are those as well (much more in the minority) that don't believe masks work on the general public (see Scandinavia)


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Reality?
> 
> To sum up, here are three reasons why you should not use ivermectin to try to prevent COVID-19:
> 
> *Ivermectin is not proven to be effective for COVID-19.*
> *Using ivermectin not as it was intended can cause a variety of health risks, even death.*
> *You are not a horse or a cow and a large dose of ivermectin is highly toxic.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Reasons Not to Use Ivermectin for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Using ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, to treat or prevent COVID-19 is up there with swallowing bleach and blow drying your face, it does not work and can cause serious harm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org


I guess I shouldn't be suprised you would unleash playbook talking points. 

Yes, really.  There is a world outside of this forum and the media that you consume on a daily basis.  Funny thing, I bet more people have had adverse effects to vaccines than IVM.  

And don't twist my words around.  Vaccines aren't bad, they just aren't as advertised - you can see for yourself.   IVM is not an approved medication for covid...yes, that's true.  Doesn't mean that it doesn't get prescribed off label by responsible  practictioners who have seen data for themselves and see the benefit of using it as treatment.  Welcome to medicine.


----------



## Grace T.

For those of you interested in Europe, the numbers in central Europe (including Germany/Austria).  Germany is at its highest levels ever.  Austria near despite medical mask mandates and a decent vaxx rate. Discussions are now turning back to lockdowns.  Interestingly Belgium is also seeing as spike, but it's not as severe as the other central european nations....maybe because it was hit among the worst in the world previously.  Spain also rising but unlike even Italy the rise is miniscule (they've had 4 waves already).

A winter wave is inevitable here.  Only question is how severe.  My medical relatives tell me from what they are hearing from their talking head, lockdowns are already back on the table (big question being will schools in blue states be spared).  We might be headed for round 3 folks!


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Reality?
> 
> To sum up, here are three reasons why you should not use ivermectin to try to prevent COVID-19:
> 
> *Ivermectin is not proven to be effective for COVID-19.*
> *Using ivermectin not as it was intended can cause a variety of health risks, even death.*
> *You are not a horse or a cow and a large dose of ivermectin is highly toxic.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Reasons Not to Use Ivermectin for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Using ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, to treat or prevent COVID-19 is up there with swallowing bleach and blow drying your face, it does not work and can cause serious harm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org


Like I mentioned before, anyone that refers to Ivermectin as horse paste has already chosen a narrative.

Does Ivermectin intended for human use work against Covid? Personally IDK, just interesting to note that it seems the only ones that think it has some benefit against Covid are the doctors actually treating patients with it.

I'm fairly confident that the Dr. in this link has never treated a Covid patient with Ivermectin.  Willing to wager $100 on this Espola?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Since you’re curious you could try:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus not respiratory disease but vascular illness, claims UC San Diego study
> 
> 
> According to research, it was found that COVID-19 is not a respiratory disease but a vascular illness, that is caused by a spike of S protein in body
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or just google UC San Diego study on Covid-19 as a vascular disease.


That yields a single picture  --


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Like I mentioned before, anyone that refers to Ivermectin as horse paste has already chosen a narrative.
> 
> Does Ivermectin intended for human use work against Covid? Personally IDK, just interesting to note that it seems the only ones that think it has some benefit against Covid are the doctors actually treating patients with it.
> 
> I'm fairly confident that the Dr. in this link has never treated a Covid patient with Ivermectin.  Willing to wager $100 on this Espola?


The only "paste" reference in the article quotes an FDA report.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Since you’re curious you could try:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus not respiratory disease but vascular illness, claims UC San Diego study
> 
> 
> According to research, it was found that COVID-19 is not a respiratory disease but a vascular illness, that is caused by a spike of S protein in body
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or just google UC San Diego study on Covid-19 as a vascular disease.


Interesting article.   I fail to see the supposed point that covid is a vascular disease any more than it is a lung disease.  A person heavily infected with the virus is likely to see declining health effects in all body systems.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The only "paste" reference in the article quotes an FDA report.


My bad, I shouldn't have assumed he shares that opinion since he only posted the FDA link in his article and then states in his conclusion that you shouldn't take it because "you are not a horse".

Apparently, I have a bad habit of taking people's word at face value.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Interesting article.   I fail to see the supposed point that covid is a vascular disease any more than it is a lung disease.  A person heavily infected with the virus is likely to see declining health effects in all body systems.


Actually plenty of evidence that it's mainly vascular.  The impairment of blood circulation was always weird.  40% of deaths related to cardiovascular events is also weird.  Inflammation, kidney damage, brain swelling.  All weird stuff not usually found in SARS/H1NI.  Just weird.  It starts as a respiratory disease but what kills people is usually vascular related.  It's why venting just didn't work.  You can vent air but you still need the blood to deliver. 


People are a little freaked out.  A respiratory virus that infects the blood and circulates is crazy. 

There is a reason why there should be a suspicious approach to figuring out how the virus was introduced to the general population. Blaming bats and wet markets isn't good enough and too vanilla.  Bats are always the fall guys.  Poor bats.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Is this a concession from you that we shouldn't be masking kids
> 
> And yes there are those as well (much more in the minority) that don't believe masks work on the general public (see Scandinavia)


No concession.  Just declining to hop down that particular small rabbit hole.  Masks on 2 year olds is a side question.  Let’s talk about the general case first: Able bodied teenagers and adults.

Are there any respected epidemiologists who believe the general public would be better off if we did not wear masks.

Note that I asked about epidemiologists, not Swedish politicians.  I’m sure you can find politicians who believe all sorts of things.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Interesting article.   I fail to see the supposed point that covid is a vascular disease any more than it is a lung disease.  A person heavily infected with the virus is likely to see declining health effects in all body systems.


Interesting response.


----------



## Brav520

Maryland elementary school accidentally vaccinates wrong student in mix-up
					

A school nurse accidentally vaccinated the wrong student at a covid clinic at a Calvert County elementary school, health officials confirm. According to Deputy Health Officer for Calvert County Champ Thomaskutty, a student who didn't have consent from parents to receive a COVID vaccine for 5 to...




					wjla.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No concession.  Just declining to hop down that particular small rabbit hole.  Masks on 2 year olds is a side question.  Let’s talk about the general case first: Able bodied teenagers and adults.
> 
> Are there any respected epidemiologists who believe the general public would be better off if we did not wear masks.
> 
> Note that I asked about epidemiologists, not Swedish politicians.  I’m sure you can find politicians who believe all sorts of things.


Yes, the nordic ones.  There's also the English ones too (but they are divided)...at least presently....their idea being to end this the vaxxed need to also have natural immunity.  Those have even been posted in the forums before.

You are declining to jump down the rabbit hole which is an illustration for you of where you, who defer to experts, is in the minority.  We all know your answer....may as well say it....it's because you trust Fauci.  You need the study by Fauci.  You want to know what Fauci says about it.

What I want to know, is if you are unqualified to judge, why you picked Fauci over the Europeans, particularly in situations where you are in the minority or at parity.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Reality?
> 
> To sum up, here are three reasons why you should not use ivermectin to try to prevent COVID-19:
> 
> *Ivermectin is not proven to be effective for COVID-19.*
> *Using ivermectin not as it was intended can cause a variety of health risks, even death.*
> *You are not a horse or a cow and a large dose of ivermectin is highly toxic.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Reasons Not to Use Ivermectin for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Using ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, to treat or prevent COVID-19 is up there with swallowing bleach and blow drying your face, it does not work and can cause serious harm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org


Strawman


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> No concession.  Just declining to hop down that particular small rabbit hole.  Masks on 2 year olds is a side question.  Let’s talk about the general case first: Able bodied teenagers and adults.
> 
> Are there any respected epidemiologists who believe the general public would be better off if we did not wear masks.


Are there any respected epidemiologists who believe the general public would be better off if we did wear masks?  Generally?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> It's not just the weather you like you whiney little bitch from Nocal.....lol!  I will look like Gene Simmons today if you want to take a chance and meet crush for the first time.


Ha! Wait, didn't I meet you at the UCLA ID Camp in January 2018? I just got back to the hotel.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> My bad, I shouldn't have assumed he shares that opinion since he only posted the FDA link in his article and then states in his conclusion that you shouldn't take it because "you are not a horse".
> 
> Apparently, I have a bad habit of taking people's word at face value.


Remember when he was a republican until Nixon, until he wasn't?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> We've been camping twice at San Onofre on the military side.  No issues.  Public sites seem to be fine issueless as well.  No mask required at eateries.


Well, "camping" was a reference to what they were allowing some to do on the public beaches in LA County that weren't campsites. They had a few fires, fights/stabbings, etc. IIRC.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, "camping" was a reference to what they were allowing some to do on the public beaches in LA County that weren't campsites. They had a few fires, fights/stabbings, etc. IIRC.


Yikes.  Yeah, that don't go here at San Diego Beaches that I know of.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Being qualified and being right are two separate things.   The last two years of "expert" opinions certainly proves that point.


Do you read, watch or listen to weather forecasts?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Today someone shared this chart, generated by the _Financial Times_. Try to pick out which one of these countries hasn't implemented a vaccine passport system:










I'll bet you know which one it is.

Meanwhile, parts of Europe are going back into lockdown. Austria is locking down the one-third of the population that is unvaccinated. The Netherlands is 72% fully vaccinated and is going into lockdown for everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated.

Wouldn't it be nice if, instead of inanely blaming "the unvaccinated" for this, the robots on social media would at least admit that this isn't how they expected it to go, and that there shouldn't be this level of cases and deaths after the introduction of vaccines?

It's like Sweden: we were supposed to believe that Sweden would have one of the worst death rates in the world because it ignored the so-called experts demanding lockdown. Well, Sweden is currently #53 in the world for COVID death rate. Number fifty-three. Not one. Not two. Not ten. Not twenty. Fifty-three.

The crazies are still criticizing Sweden, naturally. But my question is: when you were screaming hysterically at Sweden to lock down, did you think they'd end up all the way down at number 53 in the world in death rate? Aren't you the least bit curious about that? Is there a chance that if we hadn't wrecked societies it wouldn't have made any difference anyway?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Actually plenty of evidence that it's mainly vascular.  The impairment of blood circulation was always weird.  40% of deaths related to cardiovascular events is also weird.  Inflammation, kidney damage, brain swelling.  All weird stuff not usually found in SARS/H1NI.  Just weird.  It starts as a respiratory disease but what kills people is usually vascular related.  It's why venting just didn't work.  You can vent air but you still need the blood to deliver.
> 
> 
> People are a little freaked out.  A respiratory virus that infects the blood and circulates is crazy.
> 
> There is a reason why there should be a suspicious approach to figuring out how the virus was introduced to the general population. Blaming bats and wet markets isn't good enough and too vanilla.  Bats are always the fall guys.  Poor bats.


Are we talking mode of entry or residual effects?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Same with Florida: did the hysterics expect them to have one of the better rates of age-adjusted COVID mortality in the United States? Of course not. They were warning that Florida would be one of the worst.

And yet in none of these cases can they bring themselves to say: thank goodness things turned out better than we predicted! Instead, they just double down.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes, the nordic ones.  There's also the English ones too (but they are divided)...at least presently....their idea being to end this the vaxxed need to also have natural immunity.  Those have even been posted in the forums before.
> 
> You are declining to jump down the rabbit hole which is an illustration for you of where you, who defer to experts, is in the minority.  We all know your answer....may as well say it....it's because you trust Fauci.  You need the study by Fauci.  You want to know what Fauci says about it.
> 
> What I want to know, is if you are unqualified to judge, why you picked Fauci over the Europeans, particularly in situations where you are in the minority or at parity.


And yet, despite being what Grace calls a majority, these famous Nordic epidemiologists do not appear to have names....


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Well I'm biased, but San Diego is awesome.  It is definitely not LA or Bay Area.  LA has turned into a shithole and the Bay Area is a failed social experiment.  We have a buffer called Camp Pendleton that separates us from a lot of lunacy.  San Diego is chill compared to SF/LA/OC.  San Diegans biggest concern is the weather.  It varies by area but most people regardless of race and economics are generally moderate.  I'd also say we're more culturally integrated than most cities.  Mask, no mask it doesn't matter, we mind our own business.  Very little of the nanny state crap you see in NoCal.  Traffic is relatively light compared to LA and SF.
> 
> San Diego is not perfect but it has a lot to offer.


I love San Diego.  Today was epic anywhere by the beach.  SD is chill and safe.  Marines, Seals, Top Gun and war ships.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> And yet, despite being what Grace calls a majority, these famous Nordic epidemiologists do not appear to have names....


Probably because they’re not on a socialist power trip to mandate the type of tyrannical policies you applaud.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you read, watch or listen to weather forecasts?


Not for anything more than a few days out.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Not for anything more than a few days out.


How often are they spot on?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> I love San Diego.  Today was epic anywhere by the beach.  SD is chill and safe.  Marines, Seals, Top Gun and war ships.


Interesting the services are being mandated to  be vaccinated and uphold right to due process, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment after taking an oath to protect those rights that are clearly being violated.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> How often are they spot on?


Well in San Diego, I'd say they're pretty good for a few days out.  What's your point?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Well in San Diego, I'd say they're pretty good for a few days out.  What's your point?


He’s crafty.  Be careful.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> And yet, despite being what Grace calls a majority, these famous Nordic epidemiologists do not appear to have names....


I did not call them the majority on general masking. Swedish guy is pretty famous/infamous.

I've posted the UKers before, particularly on children.

Still avoiding the bad rabbit hole I see.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The Institute of Economic Affairs’s Christopher Snowdon, rightly criticizing the appalling media coverage of Covid, pleads again with his fellow Brits to calm down about Covid. Two slices:

Much of the media dealt with the upturn in Britain’s fortunes in a much simpler way. They ignored it. In more than a few instances, they explicitly claimed that cases were still rising. Interviewing Boris Johnson on 2 November, two weeks after cases peaked, CNN’s lead anchor, Christiane Amanpour, asserted that ‘there’s a big spike in Covid in this country and the record here is worse than it is elsewhere in Europe’. The following day, deputy chief medical officer Jonathan Van-Tam was asked in a BBC interview: ‘Why are schools not putting masks in place, with cases rising in school-age children?’ And Sky News tweeted: ‘With the UK’s coronavirus epidemic escalating by the day, it’s no longer a case of if Plan B will be triggered but when, say experts.’
Everyone knows the media prefer bad news to good news, but there was something almost pathological about this refusal to look the facts in the face. Could it be sheer ignorance?

On 9 November, the _Evening Standard_ reported: ‘UK Covid deaths soar to 262.’ And the _Sun_ ran the headline: ‘UK daily Covid deaths hit 262 in highest rise in a WEEK.’ It was a Tuesday. Anyone with even a passing interest in the statistics knows that the NHS always reports fewer deaths over the weekend and then catches up with the backlog on Tuesday. It is therefore almost inevitable that the ‘highest rise in a week’ will be seen on a Tuesday and that the figure will appear to ‘soar’ if you compare it to a Monday (which is what the _Evening Standard_ did). When compared to the previous Tuesday, however, the number of deaths had actually fallen.
…..


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> ​
> 
> Today someone shared this chart, generated by the _Financial Times_. Try to pick out which one of these countries hasn't implemented a vaccine passport system:
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I'll bet you know which one it is.
> 
> Meanwhile, parts of Europe are going back into lockdown. Austria is locking down the one-third of the population that is unvaccinated. The Netherlands is 72% fully vaccinated and is going into lockdown for everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if, instead of inanely blaming "the unvaccinated" for this, the robots on social media would at least admit that this isn't how they expected it to go, and that there shouldn't be this level of cases and deaths after the introduction of vaccines?
> 
> It's like Sweden: we were supposed to believe that Sweden would have one of the worst death rates in the world because it ignored the so-called experts demanding lockdown. Well, Sweden is currently #53 in the world for COVID death rate. Number fifty-three. Not one. Not two. Not ten. Not twenty. Fifty-three.
> 
> The crazies are still criticizing Sweden, naturally. But my question is: when you were screaming hysterically at Sweden to lock down, did you think they'd end up all the way down at number 53 in the world in death rate? Aren't you the least bit curious about that? Is there a chance that if we hadn't wrecked societies it wouldn't have made any difference anyway?


Here's a cool one too....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459275424954040321


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Here's a cool one too....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459275424954040321


Justification for mandates we’re told.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Senior officials in the health service made matters worse by making outlandish claims which veered into anti-vax territory. *The Health Service Journal quoted ‘one of the most respected chief executives in the NHS’ saying: ‘This is far worse than January – the vaccine hasn’t saved us this time.’ On the same day, the chief executive of NHS England, Amanda Pritchard, beclowned herself by telling the preposterous lie that we ‘have had 14 times the number of people in hospital with Covid-19 than we saw this time last year’. When it was pointed out that there are actually 30 per cent fewer people in hospital with Covid than this time last year, she ‘clarified’ that she was comparing August 2021 to August 2020 and added the frankly unbelievable claim that she didn’t have more recent figures.*

Pritchard told the original fib while calling on the public to get their booster shots. *Perhaps she thought that by massaging the figures she could turbo-charge national paranoia and put a rocket under the vaccination campaign. If so, she may have been mistaken. Her words were nectar to the smiley-faced ‘sceptics’ since they appeared to prove that the vaccines were not only useless but that the hospitals were virtually empty last November, as they had claimed at the time.*


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Here's a cool one too....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459275424954040321


In most of the states shown, there is a decrease.  What was his (and, I assume, your) point?


----------



## watfly

Victory for common sense.









						U.S. appeals court affirms hold on Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate
					

A U.S. appeals court on Friday upheld its decision to put on hold an order by President Joe Biden for companies with 100 workers or more to require COVID-19 vaccines, rejecting a challenge by his administration.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> In most of the states shown, there is a decrease.  What was his (and, I assume, your) point?


I don't know what his point is.

I just find it fascinating.  California, for example, is if the trend holds up week over week (which it may or may not) on course to have a worse winter than last year.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Jay Bhattacharya tweets:

The vaccine mandates are a prime example of a short-sighted health policy. For example, firing nurses will put health care systems at risk of being overwhelmed, harming the sick and vulnerable.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> In most of the states shown, there is a decrease.  What was his (and, I assume, your) point?


You just made it for him.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Well in San Diego, I'd say they're pretty good for a few days out.  What's your point?


If you don’t get it you never will.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> If you don’t get it you never will.


What's with the coy, passive aggressive games?  Just come out and say it.

If you're implying that a weather person reporting the weather is the same as medical experts predicting Covid outcomes then you are clearly confused.  Ironically, most weather reporters aren't formally trained meteorologists and are in fact just reporting weather info they're getting off a computer.  If you and I were better looking we could both qualify to be TV weathermen.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are we talking mode of entry or residual effects?


do you mean infection and disease?  Remember, this is a novel virus.  Just about everyone has been wrong or off on many things: treatment, prevention, transmission.  Remember when people were spraying down groceries?  

The truth is it's baffled every expert (except those on TV, they are the best).  The vaccines are a tremendous scientific accomplishment given how little we know about this virus.  The reality is that we don't yet know how to completely manage it.  Vaccines may be just one tool used to treat/manage the disease.  We may never be able to completely manage it.  It's not going to just go away like ebola does.

Keep getting your booster and settle in. Or maybe give your immune system a crack at the virus.  You'd be amazed how capable the human immune system is.  

Anecdote for you:  My neighbors are both physicians, 2 kids.  Oldest is vaccinated (college athlete), parents are vaccinated, youngest is not.  The youngest contracted the virus very early on (last year).  Both parents recently contracted the virus (both vaccinated).  They didn't change a thing about their home behaviors. The youngest was tested every day (antibody and PCR).  Strong antibodies, always negative PCR.  No way youngest needs to be vaccinated, *ever, *for this virus.  The human immune system is a powerful thing.  Funny thing, the youngest has been sick on and off over the last month with another  virus going around the HS.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Here's a cool one too....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459275424954040321


I saw on good authority from known board poster, a Mr. E. Magoo, that Covid was not seasonal.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I saw on good authority from known board poster, a Mr. E. Magoo, that Covid was not seasonal.


One would expect it to be seasonal based on its genetics, but the data so far does not support that judgment.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> What's with the coy, passive aggressive games?  Just come out and say it.
> 
> If you're implying that a weather person reporting the weather is the same as medical experts predicting Covid outcomes then you are clearly confused.  Ironically, most weather reporters aren't formally trained meteorologists and are in fact just reporting weather info they're getting off a computer.  If you and I were better looking we could both qualify to be TV weathermen.


The two fields are more alike than you think.

In both cases, the guy in front of the camera is someone quite different from the data quant who tunes the computer model.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The two fields are more alike than you think.
> 
> In both cases, the guy in front of the camera is someone quite different from the data quant who tunes the computer model.


They get things wrong but we still listen because they know far more than we do.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> What's with the coy, passive aggressive games?  Just come out and say it.
> 
> If you're implying that a weather person reporting the weather is the same as medical experts predicting Covid outcomes then you are clearly confused.  Ironically, most weather reporters aren't formally trained meteorologists and are in fact just reporting weather info they're getting off a computer.  If you and I were better looking we could both qualify to be TV weathermen.


Jackie the weather lady from KCAL9 is amazing at calling the weather and so is Dallas.  This is what it takes to do weather.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> They get things wrong but we still listen because they know far more than we do.


Yes, I am kind of baffled by the willingness to say “I never studied it, I cannot describe any of the details of it, but I trust my own ideas more than I trust the people who have done this for 30 years.”.


----------



## Desert Hound

More good news from CDC. Why mandates?

"The prospects for meeting a clear herd-immunity target are "very complicated," said Dr. Jefferson Jones, a medical officer on the CDC’s COVID-19 Epidemiology Task Force."

"Vaccines have been quite effective at preventing cases of COVID-19 that lead to severe illness and death, *but none has proved reliable at blocking transmission* of the virus, Jones noted. Recent evidence has also made clear that the immunity provided by vaccines can wane in a matter of months."





__





						CDC shifts pandemic goals away from reaching herd immunity
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> More good news from CDC. Why mandates?
> 
> "The prospects for meeting a clear herd-immunity target are "very complicated," said Dr. Jefferson Jones, a medical officer on the CDC’s COVID-19 Epidemiology Task Force."
> 
> "Vaccines have been quite effective at preventing cases of COVID-19 that lead to severe illness and death, *but none has proved reliable at blocking transmission* of the virus, Jones noted. Recent evidence has also made clear that the immunity provided by vaccines can wane in a matter of months."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC shifts pandemic goals away from reaching herd immunity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


Perhaps you’d like to find a dictionary and look up the difference between “blocking” and “reducing”.   

While you’re at it, ponder the difference between “wane” and “vanish”.  Those two aren’t the same, either.

Trying for an honorary degree from the Grace T. School of False Dichotomy?  It won’t work.  That school doesn’t give honorary degrees.  If you can‘t earn a PhD and tenured position, you get nothing.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Perhaps you’d like to find a dictionary and look up the difference between “blocking” and “reducing”.
> 
> While you’re at it, ponder the difference between “wane” and “vanish”.  Those two aren’t the same, either.
> 
> Trying for an honorary degree from the Grace T. School of False Dichotomy?  It won’t work.  That school doesn’t give honorary degrees.  If you can‘t earn a PhD and tenured position, you get nothing.


The vaxxed wane quickly, they don't stop the spread, new variants arise (see France specifically and a couple of other Euro countries ..a new variation is here), and this thing isn't going anywhere.

With how quickly 5he vaxx effectiveness drops it may come to pass that the best way to deal with the virus is treatments for those who get it and get sick enough to require medical intervention.

That seems more viable then taking a shot, 4-6 months later trying it again. And oh yeah having gov and companies trying to keep track of how many days since the last jab, etc. Long term that system won't work.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> The vaxxed wane quickly, they don't stop the spread, new variants arise (see France specifically and a couple of other Euro countries ..a new variation is here), and this thing isn't going anywhere.
> 
> With how quickly 5he vaxx effectiveness drops it may come to pass that the best way to deal with the virus is treatments for those who get it and get sick enough to require medical intervention.
> 
> That seems more viable then taking a shot, 4-6 months later trying it again. And oh yeah having gov and companies trying to keep track of how many days since the last jab, etc. Long term that system won't work.


True dat Hound.  Or, if you dont do wtf we say, you can;t work or try and find work.  My pal Colin is tech recruiter.  He had a really good placement in LA but it came with a mandate; jab or no job.  His candidate was depressed for work  so he took the jab and the job.  I guess the company fired the dude before because he wouldnt obey and then they hired Colin's guy because he obeyed.  I couldn't eat dinner without a mask in LA and so on and so forth.


----------



## Desert Hound

New variant.

This is why mandates are bad. They do nothing to stop the spread.

Learn to live with it.

Since vaxx doesn't last long hopefully they get more treatment options available. And they are. But still have a long way to go.









						New COVID variant found in France: Reason for panic or not quite yet?
					

The spike protein of the variant known as B.1.640 has some unprecedented mutations.




					m.jpost.com


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> New variant.
> 
> This is why mandates are bad. They do nothing to stop the spread.
> 
> Learn to live with it.
> 
> Since vaxx doesn't last long hopefully they get more treatment options available. And they are. But still have a long way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New COVID variant found in France: Reason for panic or not quite yet?
> 
> 
> The spike protein of the variant known as B.1.640 has some unprecedented mutations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.jpost.com


Oh Lord, now the B.1.640 variant is rearing his ugly head.  I here if you take the B and times it by 666, then it's the cousin of Mark from the Beast.  Popcorn?  This is some crazy ass behavior by some.  This is what happens when you have no place to run and nowhere to hide.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The two fields are more alike than you think.
> 
> In both cases, the guy in front of the camera is someone quite different from the data quant who tunes the computer model.


Your right, they both need very little training to give their opinion on TV.  Funny how people think because someone gives their opinion in he media they are somehow an expert.  Another thing that you've fallen for hook, line and sinker.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Yes, I am kind of baffled by the willingness to say “I never studied it, I cannot describe any of the details of it, but I trust my own ideas more than I trust the people who have done this for 30 years.”.


Actually we're saying look at the data, not the opinions and projections of some lab rat.  Of course you know that, but your side just likes to mischaracterize our position in an attempt to make your arguments sound more plausible.  It doesn't work but I'm sure it makes you feel better.


----------



## espola

Big Pharma must be feeling the heat of Congressional moves to allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices because they are now lying about it in TV ads.

One take on this (the article is from August, but I saw one of the Pharma ads on senior-favorite History Channel last night)  --









						New Big Pharma Harry & Louise type ad to scare folks into paying more for their prescriptions
					

I had to do a doubletake on this Big Pharma ad. It was reminiscent of the Harry & Louise ads that killed healthcare reform before.  Big Pharma wants to keep you their cash cow   ...




					www.dailykos.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Actually we're saying look at the data, not the opinions and projections of some lab rat.  Of course you know that, but your side just likes to mischaracterize our position in an attempt to make your arguments sound more plausible.  It doesn't work but I'm sure it makes you feel better.


It's all well and good to say look at the data.  And as I've said, if the public engages with the output of the scientific process that has to be considered a good thing.  But "looking at the data" is not just taking the gestalt of graphs that come through social media feeds with no context and a bunch of spin. Bottom line, "looking at the data" in a comprehensive way is a shit ton of hard work.  For example, many that post here have convinced themselves that immunity induced through infection is "superior" to immunity induced through vaccination.  A small subset of cohort studies have been discussed.  What is the composite of the remarkably large amount of work that is being done?

On that topic the link below is what the CDC would consider looking at the data (updated as of last month), and this is even a distilled topline document, the sort of the thing a congress critter might scan over while they are taking a crap.  But it would be a good place to start "looking at the data" in a comprehensive way. Read the studies that are cited, start blocking out the variables, compare, contrast, synthesize.  And then you could obviously drill down even further, while still keeping up with the flood of new studies that are constantly coming out.

My point is that there are very few people (teams of people even) that are even in a position to comprehensively look at the data.  What we are individually doing is a 21st century version of going with our gut, as has been pointed out.  "Those strange yellow fruits tasted good so maybe these yellow berries will work out too" has become "this piece of information makes sense to me in terms of what I already think I know".  It's the same thing.  









						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Yes, I am kind of baffled by the willingness to say “I never studied it, I cannot describe any of the details of it, but I trust my own ideas more than I trust the people who have done this for 30 years.”.


Yeah that’s taking DIY a bit too far.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> The two fields are more alike than you think.
> 
> In both cases, the guy in front of the camera is someone quite different from the data quant who tunes the computer model.


Let us not forget the weather-reporting start to Raquel Welch's showbiz career --


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's all well and good to say look at the data.  And as I've said, if the public engages with the output of the scientific process that has to be considered a good thing.  But "looking at the data" is not just taking the gestalt of graphs that come through social media feeds with no context and a bunch of spin. Bottom line, "looking at the data" in a comprehensive way is a shit ton of hard work.  For example, many that post here have convinced themselves that immunity induced through infection is "superior" to immunity induced through vaccination.  A small subset of cohort studies have been discussed.  What is the composite of the remarkably large amount of work that is being done?
> 
> On that topic the link below is what the CDC would consider looking at the data (updated as of last month), and this is even a distilled topline document, the sort of the thing a congress critter might scan over while they are taking a crap.  But it would be a good place to start "looking at the data" in a comprehensive way. Read the studies that are cited, start blocking out the variables, compare, contrast, synthesize.  And then you could obviously drill down even further, while still keeping up with the flood of new studies that are constantly coming out.
> 
> My point is that there are very few people (teams of people even) that are even in a position to comprehensively look at the data.  What we are individually doing is a 21st century version of going with our gut, as has been pointed out.  "Those strange yellow fruits tasted good so maybe these yellow berries will work out too" has become "this piece of information makes sense to me in terms of what I already think I know".  It's the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


With all do respect, your getting too bogged down in the details and are missing the big picture.  To discriminate against the unvaccinated but previously infected the burden of proof should be on the discriminators not the discriminated.  They have completed failed that burden of proof no matter how you try to spin it or put it in a different context. Hence why you have the appeals court ruling and their comments:

"staggeringly overbroad"
"fatally flawed"
"grossly exceeds OSHA’s statutory authority."  

The data speaks for itself.  You don't have to put it in an epidemiologists magic blender to understand what it means. You don't need to drill down or synthesize.  It's not about R values or herd immunity estimates.  It's all about risk assessment.  The data on risks are very clear.  Healthy people have virtually zero risk and kids in particular, have risks in the 1000's of one percent for any negative impacts.

Lets stop with the smoke and mirrors, the discrediting around the edges and the myopic thinking. Let's see the forest, instead of just the trees, and move on...80% of the population already has.  It's only the arrogance of academics and medical experts that are keeping the failed policies alive.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Let us not forget the weather-reporting start to Raquel Welch's showbiz career --
> 
> View attachment 12080


News 8


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Let us not forget the weather-reporting start to Raquel Welch's showbiz career --
> 
> View attachment 12080


I'm kind of a fan of Dagmar Midcap.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> With all do respect, your getting too bogged down in the details and are missing the big picture.  To discriminate against the unvaccinated but previously infected the burden of proof should be on the discriminators not the discriminated.  They have completed failed that burden of proof no matter how you try to spin it or put it in a different context. Hence why you have the appeals court ruling and their comments:
> 
> "staggeringly overbroad"
> "fatally flawed"
> "grossly exceeds OSHA’s statutory authority."
> 
> The data speaks for itself.  You don't have to put it in an epidemiologists magic blender to understand what it means. You don't need to drill down or synthesize.  It's not about R values or herd immunity estimates.  It's all about risk assessment.  The data on risks are very clear.  Healthy people have virtually zero risk and kids in particular, have risks in the 1000's of one percent for any negative impacts.
> 
> Lets stop with the smoke and mirrors, the discrediting around the edges and the myopic thinking. Let's see the forest, instead of just the trees, and move on...80% of the population already has.  It's only the arrogance of academics and medical experts that are keeping the failed policies alive.


So like with all extreme lunacy the fabricator  attempts to lay the onus of disproving the existence of the fabricated on those they are trying to convince? Seems a bit backwards, like always.


----------



## Soccermaverick




----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> So like with all extreme lunacy the fabricator  attempts to lay the onus of disproving the existence of the fabricated on those they are trying to convince? Seems a bit backwards, like always.


Read the Appeals Court ruling and then try arguing that point of who is the fabricator.  Since your anti-mandate I'm sure you will appreciate their reasoning.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm kind of a fan of Dagmar Midcap.


Lol! Good friend who works with her has some stories about her and that she has told him. Nothing lurid, nice lady, lots of fun I’m told.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'm kind of a fan of Dagmar Midcap.


The 50s are the new 30s.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Perhaps you’d like to find a dictionary and look up the difference between “blocking” and “reducing”.
> 
> While you’re at it, ponder the difference between “wane” and “vanish”.  Those two aren’t the same, either.
> 
> Trying for an honorary degree from the Grace T. School of False Dichotomy?  It won’t work.  That school doesn’t give honorary degrees.  If you can‘t earn a PhD and tenured position, you get nothing.


Talk about false dichotomy. You are just talking degrees here. As a math person you should know there is a difference between approaching but never reaching zero and zero…in there real world though they may both mean the same thing: there is literally no practical difference for example between 0 and the 2% effectiveness of the j&j vaccine as far as herd immunity 

And guess what?  The cdc has now quietly backed off zero covid saying it’s likely to go endemic.  There is no herd immunity.  Who was right?  Who was wrong?  You obviously are throwing in the towel on covid zero now because it’s the cdc right?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, I am kind of baffled by the willingness to say “I never studied it, I cannot describe any of the details of it, but I trust my own ideas more than I trust the people who have done this for 30 years.”.


That’s not really fair. On most of the issues we’ve debated in this forum there has been a split of opinion with experts on both sides. Team panic has had the majority and establishment on its side most of the time but you’ve never been able to articulate how you chose among experts. For example, you are in the minority on child vaxxing and child masking. Now you are quickly headed into the minority in herd immunity too. If you have a methodology about picking beyond the us establishment I’d be happy to hear it, but if it’s just the establishment then the establishment has been wrong about a ton of stuff in this pandemic and has a poor track record not to mention other examples like the 08 crash, Iraq, Afghanistan and the 16 election. Not exactly brilliance in action


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That’s not really fair. On most of the issues we’ve debated in this forum there has been a split of opinion with experts on both sides. Team panic has had the majority and establishment on its side most of the time but you’ve never been able to articulate how you chose among experts. For example, you are in the minority on child vaxxing and child masking. Now you are quickly headed into the minority in herd immunity too. If you have a methodology about picking beyond the us establishment I’d be happy to hear it, but if it’s just the establishment then the establishment has been wrong about a ton of stuff in this pandemic and has a poor track record not to mention other examples like the 08 crash, Iraq, Afghanistan and the 16 election. Not exactly brilliance in action


Sentence 1: It isn’t fair to accuse Grace of ignoring experts.

Sentence 6: The experts are usually wrong.

I stand by my original comment.  You are not qualified, yet you place your opinions above the actual research.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sentence 1: It isn’t fair to accuse Grace of ignoring experts.
> 
> Sentence 6: The experts are usually wrong.
> 
> I stand by my original comment.  You are not qualified, yet you place your opinions above the actual research.


Ha now you are just falling back on your old trick of deliberately distorting points. It’s not the experts that are usually wrong…it’s the establishmentarian experts in specific instances that got it wrong

there are experts on team reality too.  You just don’t like em. Yet you have no mechanism for determining which ones are right and which ones are wrong. It’s not even majoritarianism because you are in the minority of child vaccines and masking. You just pick the ones in the establishment…typical of the mandarins that believe in the meritocracy.  You’ve displayed no thought or reason in determining which advice to follow. You just blindly follow the ones in charge.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ha now you are just falling back on your old trick of deliberately distorting points. It’s not the experts that are usually wrong…it’s the establishmentarian experts in specific instances that got it wrong
> 
> there are experts on team reality too.  You just don’t like em. Yet you have no mechanism for determining which ones are right and which ones are wrong. It’s not even majoritarianism because you are in the minority of child vaccines and masking. You just pick the ones in the establishment…typical of the mandarins that believe in the meritocracy.  You’ve displayed no thought or reason in determining which advice to follow. You just blindly follow the ones in charge.


And out come the slurs.  Mandarins, blindly follow, no thought or reason, etc..

Yawn.  Been there.  Done that.

My original comment stands.   This isn’t about weighing advice from different experts.  You can’t even name those Nordic epidemiologists to whom you think I should pay attention.  You aren’t saying that their research stands above the others.  You just think they are contrarian, and that therefore they must agree with you.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> With all do respect, your getting too bogged down in the details and are missing the big picture.  To discriminate against the unvaccinated but previously infected the burden of proof should be on the discriminators not the discriminated.  They have completed failed that burden of proof no matter how you try to spin it or put it in a different context. Hence why you have the appeals court ruling and their comments:
> 
> "staggeringly overbroad"
> "fatally flawed"
> "grossly exceeds OSHA’s statutory authority."
> 
> The data speaks for itself.  You don't have to put it in an epidemiologists magic blender to understand what it means. You don't need to drill down or synthesize.  It's not about R values or herd immunity estimates.  It's all about risk assessment.  The data on risks are very clear.  Healthy people have virtually zero risk and kids in particular, have risks in the 1000's of one percent for any negative impacts.
> 
> Lets stop with the smoke and mirrors, the discrediting around the edges and the myopic thinking. Let's see the forest, instead of just the trees, and move on...80% of the population already has.  It's only the arrogance of academics and medical experts that are keeping the failed policies alive.


You've said your piece. I've said mine.  But since I like the myopic magic blender image...

One thing I believe to be true is that the data never speaks for itself.  What data the public sees and how it comes to them are selective processes, both from the researchers that produce it and rising forces that seek to distort and manipulate it for their own purposes.  Smoke and mirrors indeed. Way I see it, everybody works with a myopic magic blender plugged in between their shoulder blades, scientists, policy makers, digitial world bad actors, soccer parents, everybody.  You, me, we get to choose what to feed into our blenders.  You choose risk assessment/policy/government overreach asshole stuff; I choose IL6 feedback circuitry, MIS-C hypotheticals, etc.  Whatever. We get to stop when it all homogenizes into a tasty smoothy that makes sense to us  Others don't have that luxury.  Its their job, their responsibility to try and crank it all through the hopper, imperfect as that may be, and try get a sense of it.  There are often surprises along the way. You may feel they are acting at a disservice, arrogant, clouding the issue, etc.  If so, it is what it is.  There are lessons in humility for all of us in this pandemic.  For most of us, there will be no consequences for not learning.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> And out come the slurs.  Mandarins, blindly follow, no thought or reason, etc..
> 
> Yawn.  Been there.  Done that.
> 
> My original comment stands.   This isn’t about weighing advice from different experts.  You can’t even name those Nordic epidemiologists to whom you think I should pay attention.  You aren’t saying that their research stands above the others.  You just think they are contrarian, and that therefore they must agree with you.


Yawn. I’m just too lazy to look up the Norwegian and Swedish guys name. As you fully know they’ve become quite infamous.  Funny now you are back on “research”. You dismiss research you don’t like like the Texas mask study or the Denmark study, you twist stuff like the Bangladesh study to your liking and you fully embrace the garbage stuff out out by the cdc to justify their policies

face it. Let’s look back on your track record.  You almost always picked the advice from the people in charge.  Mask outdoors?  Let’s do it. Cloth masks?  All in.  Close schools?Yup.  Your default principle really just seems (with few exceptions like out of state tournaments you want to go to or stuff that is even more restrictive and authoritarian like australia) to be just obey those in charge, your attempts to rationalize that principle as something more glorious or to obfuscate notwithstanding. That’s your principle: obey…not follow the research, not listen to the experts, not follow the science…just blindly obey because those in charge know better even if there a dissenting minority and even if other countries are doing it different.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You've said your piece. I've said mine.  But since I like the myopic magic blender image...
> 
> One thing I believe to be true is that the data never speaks for itself.  What data the public sees and how it comes to them are selective processes, both from the researchers that produce it and rising forces that seek to distort and manipulate it for their own purposes.  Smoke and mirrors indeed. Way I see it, everybody works with a myopic magic blender plugged in between their shoulder blades, scientists, policy makers, digitial world bad actors, soccer parents, everybody.  You, me, we get to choose what to feed into our blenders.  You choose risk assessment/policy/government overreach asshole stuff; I choose IL6 feedback circuitry, MIS-C hypotheticals, etc.  Whatever. We get to stop when it all homogenizes into a tasty smoothy that makes sense to us  Others don't have that luxury.  Its their job, their responsibility to try and crank it all through the hopper, imperfect as that may be, and try get a sense of it.  There are often surprises along the way. You may feel they are acting at a disservice, arrogant, clouding the issue, etc.  If so, it is what it is.  There are lessons in humility for all of us in this pandemic.  For most of us, there will be no consequences for not learning.


The chief difference though is those of team panic/safety and those on team reality/team virus is when all is said and done we’ve been right (and not even close) far more than you all. If you look at the list of where dad4 has been willing (kicking and screaming) to admit he’s moved, he’s moved far more than any of us.  Now it is a fair argument to say that we’ll they had to be more cautious because they were in charge, had imperfect information and lives were at stake, but that doesn’t justify the continuing non acknowledgement that hey we were wrong and we are sorry we caused such collateral damage starting first and foremost with the children


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> And out come the slurs.  Mandarins, blindly follow, no thought or reason, etc..
> 
> Yawn.  Been there.  Done that.
> 
> My original comment stands.   This isn’t about weighing advice from different experts.  You can’t even name those Nordic epidemiologists to whom you think I should pay attention.  You aren’t saying that their research stands above the others.  You just think they are contrarian, and that therefore they must agree with you.


I remember all the thought that went in to your case hyping from day one while deaths were on the floor.  You’ve ignored at least 30 years of virus history and ask for names to compare this pandemic to itself.  Not very scientific at all.  More like eloquent and willful ignorance.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You've said your piece. I've said mine.  But since I like the myopic magic blender image...
> 
> One thing I believe to be true is that the data never speaks for itself.  What data the public sees and how it comes to them are selective processes, both from the researchers that produce it and rising forces that seek to distort and manipulate it for their own purposes.  Smoke and mirrors indeed. Way I see it, everybody works with a myopic magic blender plugged in between their shoulder blades, scientists, policy makers, digitial world bad actors, soccer parents, everybody.  You, me, we get to choose what to feed into our blenders.  You choose risk assessment/policy/government overreach asshole stuff; I choose IL6 feedback circuitry, MIS-C hypotheticals, etc.  Whatever. We get to stop when it all homogenizes into a tasty smoothy that makes sense to us  Others don't have that luxury.  Its their job, their responsibility to try and crank it all through the hopper, imperfect as that may be, and try get a sense of it.  There are often surprises along the way. You may feel they are acting at a disservice, arrogant, clouding the issue, etc.  If so, it is what it is.  There are lessons in humility for all of us in this pandemic.  For most of us, there will be no consequences for not learning.


Nonsense


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Nonsense


That's what I was thinking.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yawn. I’m just too lazy to look up the Norwegian and Swedish guys name. As you fully know they’ve become quite infamous.  Funny now you are back on “research”. You dismiss research you don’t like like the Texas mask study or the Denmark study, you twist stuff like the Bangladesh study to your liking and you fully embrace the garbage stuff out out by the cdc to justify their policies
> 
> face it. Let’s look back on your track record.  You almost always picked the advice from the people in charge.  Mask outdoors?  Let’s do it. Cloth masks?  All in.  Close schools?Yup.  Your default principle really just seems (with few exceptions like out of state tournaments you want to go to or stuff that is even more restrictive and authoritarian like australia) to be just obey those in charge, your attempts to rationalize that principle as something more glorious or to obfuscate notwithstanding. That’s your principle: obey…not follow the research, not listen to the experts, not follow the science…just blindly obey because those in charge know better even if there a dissenting minority and even if other countries are doing it different.


The Danish mask study was fine, it just didn’t say what you think it said.

It was a solid demonstration of what a surgical mask can and cannot do to protect the wearer.   You want to take that result and use it to draw conclusions about the ability of masks to reduce transmission.  The study does not support that conclusion, but there you are making it anyway.

This is a recurring theme on this thread.  Grace finds an interesting paper, and blatantly misrepresents the findings.  Same as the Bangladesh study.  And several before that.

You’re treating the research, and the researchers, as nothing more than tokens to be counted on my side versus your side.  Contents of the paper?  Who cares.  The important question is whose side they are on.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The Danish mask study was fine, it just didn’t say what you think it said.
> 
> It was a solid demonstration of what a surgical mask can and cannot do to protect the wearer.   You want to take that result and use it to draw conclusions about the ability of masks to reduce transmission.  The study does not support that conclusion, but there you are making it anyway.
> 
> This is a recurring theme on this thread.  Grace finds an interesting paper, and blatantly misrepresents the findings.  Same as the Bangladesh study.  And several before that.
> 
> You’re treating the research, and the researchers, as nothing more than tokens to be counted on my side versus your side.  Contents of the paper?  Who cares.  The important question is whose side they are on.


You are deflecting again.  Like always you choose to ignore those studies thar cut against you (Texas), distinguish those in the middle (Bangladesh, danish) and embrace those that support your priors (cdc)

you miss the recurring theme: it’s that the science research and policies you support are always those from whoever is in charge even when they are in the minority. And your answer is always the same: obey shut up and stop complaining.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *And your answer is always the same: obey shut up and stop complaining.*


Dad needs to lose his job and opportunities to make a buck so he can relate to others not in his fake bubble.  He has a tenured math job for life.  I have a pal WHO can't even speak an opinion at his school lunch room or he will get retaliated against and sent out to Victorville or Blythe to teach.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You've said your piece. I've said mine.  But since I like the myopic magic blender image...
> 
> One thing I believe to be true is that the data never speaks for itself.  What data the public sees and how it comes to them are selective processes, both from the researchers that produce it and rising forces that seek to distort and manipulate it for their own purposes.  Smoke and mirrors indeed. Way I see it, everybody works with a myopic magic blender plugged in between their shoulder blades, scientists, policy makers, digitial world bad actors, soccer parents, everybody.  You, me, we get to choose what to feed into our blenders.  You choose risk assessment/policy/government overreach asshole stuff; I choose IL6 feedback circuitry, MIS-C hypotheticals, etc.  Whatever. We get to stop when it all homogenizes into a tasty smoothy that makes sense to us  Others don't have that luxury.  Its their job, their responsibility to try and crank it all through the hopper, imperfect as that may be, and try get a sense of it.  There are often surprises along the way. You may feel they are acting at a disservice, arrogant, clouding the issue, etc.  If so, it is what it is.  There are lessons in humility for all of us in this pandemic.  For most of us, there will be no consequences for not learning.


Thank you for proving my point.  Your gaslighting by saying don't take the data at face value.  I encourage you to read the Appeals Court ruling, while some of it is specific to OSHA, it really lays out clearly why mandates are fatally flawed.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are deflecting again.  Like always you choose to ignore those studies thar cut against you (Texas), distinguish those in the middle (Bangladesh, danish) and embrace those that support your priors (cdc)
> 
> you miss the recurring theme: it’s that the science research and policies you support are always those from whoever is in charge even when they are in the minority. And your answer is always the same: obey shut up and stop complaining.


Distinguishing?  You mean I read the study, think about the methods used and the results obtained, and try to understand what it does and does not demonstrate.

Of course.  That’s what you’re supposed to do.  Studies are best when they are tools for understanding, not cudgels to be used against political opponents.

If you think “the Texas study” is helpful towards building understanding, post a link.  

On the other hand, if it’s just your favorite rhetorical cudgel, don’t bother.   I can read it and tell you what it really means, but you’ll just find some other study to misinterpret.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Thank you for proving my point.  Your gaslighting by saying don't take the data at face value.  I encourage you to read the Appeals Court ruling, while some of it is specific to OSHA, it really lays out clearly why mandates are fatally flawed.


We are coming from different angles.  It's fine.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> That's what I was thinking.


Don't worry Wallace.  Your blender has some special features.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> The chief difference though is those of team panic/safety and those on team reality/team virus is when all is said and done we’ve been right (and not even close) far more than you all. If you look at the list of where dad4 has been willing (kicking and screaming) to admit he’s moved, he’s moved far more than any of us.  Now it is a fair argument to say that we’ll they had to be more cautious because they were in charge, had imperfect information and lives were at stake, but that doesn’t justify the continuing non acknowledgement that hey we were wrong and we are sorry we caused such collateral damage starting first and foremost with the children


"Team virus".  Just a game.  I want a T-shirt.

Real quick. Since you like trotting out these cohort studies and throwing them on one side of the scales or another.  I think its cool you like browsing around.  You should try popping the hood on some of these studies and start poking around.  You might find it more fun.  Like that Nature article you posted a bit ago. Nice piece of work.  It's not saying what you attributed to it, but it's really a remarkable finding about the the flexibility of our amazing immune systems.  But what I thought I'd ask is this. So, in the CDC overview of the set of extant cohort studies I posted in response to "looking at the data" one topline was what's below.  What do you think it means?  It's really a restatement of data you've posted previously, and it has a direct bearing on why the findings of these cohort studies bounce around in a way that let's you play with the whole "team natural immunity" vs. "team vaccine immunity" silliness.  


"Multiple studies have shown that antibody titers correlate with protection at a population level, but protective titers at the individual level remain unknown".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The Danish mask study was fine, it just didn’t say what you think it said.
> 
> It was a solid demonstration of what a surgical mask can and cannot do to protect the wearer.   You want to take that result and use it to draw conclusions about the ability of masks to reduce transmission.  The study does not support that conclusion, but there you are making it anyway.
> 
> This is a recurring theme on this thread.  Grace finds an interesting paper, and blatantly misrepresents the findings.  Same as the Bangladesh study.  And several before that.
> 
> You’re treating the research, and the researchers, as nothing more than tokens to be counted on my side versus your side.  Contents of the paper?  Who cares.  The important question is whose side they are on.


Speaking of the Danish study not saying what Grace thinks.  Your case hyping contradicts the ability of mask to reduce transmission.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> You are deflecting again.  Like always you choose to ignore those studies thar cut against you (Texas), distinguish those in the middle (Bangladesh, danish) and embrace those that support your priors (cdc)
> 
> you miss the recurring theme: it’s that the science research and policies you support are always those from whoever is in charge even when they are in the minority. And your answer is always the same: obey shut up and stop complaining.


It's hilarious to see him accuse you of doing or thinking the same as he does in his post.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Thank you for proving my point.  Your gaslighting by saying don't take the data at face value.  I encourage you to read the Appeals Court ruling, while some of it is specific to OSHA, it really lays out clearly why mandates are fatally flawed.


Hey bro, if you mandate your employee to jab or lose job, is the employer now reliable for this employee 24/7 365 dayz out of the year?


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Don't worry Wallace.  Your blender has some special features.


You just made my green light in my brain go on.  You just nailed me to a t and its helping me understand me more.  Footy gave me the name "crush" and it also turn my green light on. I will talk to my wife, ds and dd and ask them what features I have.  Im open to suggestions on here from Grace T or any of the fellas.  I want to be humble so I would like that to be a special feature as well as mercy and "crush" their egoes.    Wallace is no more.  That was the warrior spirit in me.  My wife said Im here to heal from the hell of all the wars.  Lots of wars if you turn your head out of the bubble you live in.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It's hilarious to see him accuse you of doing or thinking the same as he does in his post.


Hahahahahahahhaahhhhahahahahahah


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Distinguishing?  You mean I read the study, think about the methods used and the results obtained, and try to understand what it does and does not demonstrate.
> 
> Of course.  That’s what you’re supposed to do.  Studies are best when they are tools for understanding, not cudgels to be used against political opponents.
> 
> If you think “the Texas study” is helpful towards building understanding, post a link.
> 
> On the other hand, if it’s just your favorite rhetorical cudgel, don’t bother.   I can read it and tell you what it really means, but you’ll just find some other study to misinterpret.


I did. You chose to ignore it several times I pointed you to it

you:” I don’t like it when you read the parts of the study I don’t like or point out conclusions I don’t like to see.  You misinterpret things when you go against my interpretation”.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Don't worry Wallace.  Your blender has some special features.


You two are the two bizarro of each other fir each team. You have the same button. Why we love you.


----------



## crush

Lets dump all the articles a d listen to what Bobby has to say.  WHO still has a job and WHO is making a killing off this scam with a plan?  WHO is losing his job and wealth becase of the scam?  The only time Mr. Fence Sitter gets his ass off the fence is when he losses his ability to earn a living and lose all his rights becuse 500 plus assholes are billionaires.  Bye bye middle class. 









						Bobby Kennedy Jr Speaks Truth
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> "Team virus".  Just a game.  I want a T-shirt.
> 
> Real quick. Since you like trotting out these cohort studies and throwing them on one side of the scales or another.  I think its cool you like browsing around.  You should try popping the hood on some of these studies and start poking around.  You might find it more fun.  Like that Nature article you posted a bit ago. Nice piece of work.  It's not saying what you attributed to it, but it's really a remarkable finding about the the flexibility of our amazing immune systems.  But what I thought I'd ask is this. So, in the CDC overview of the set of extant cohort studies I posted in response to "looking at the data" one topline was what's below.  What do you think it means?  It's really a restatement of data you've posted previously, and it has a direct bearing on why the findings of these cohort studies bounce around in a way that let's you play with the whole "team natural immunity" vs. "team vaccine immunity" silliness.
> 
> 
> "Multiple studies have shown that antibody titers correlate with protection at a population level, but protective titers at the individual level remain unknown".


Yeah that’s one of my weakness I’ll cope to.  I’m processing a wide range of info on a variety of topics with very limited time. So unfortunately I don’t have the time to deep dive except for a few key ones like the Bangladesh study.  My read and type count btw is very very high…back in high school the woman who tested me said it was the highest she’s seen but it does mean I sometimes miss gems and the footnotes in law school were a pain

there’s a new one out of Denmark that you might like. Can’t post it now since I’m remote (soccer). But it’s very clear the boosted do better than the two than the one than the none until you throw in the naturally immune. The naturally immune outperform the no vax and one vax, naturally immune +1 vax outperform the vax 1 and vax 2. And it’s not even close in any of the three metrics of cases, hospital or death.  It’s in danish and haven’t found a translation yet so tough read.


----------



## crush

Read this Booster Boys.  Seriously, when I read this shit, it makes me sad.









						Coronavirus FAQ: I just got a booster. Can I go back to my pre-pandemic routines?
					

Does a booster shot mean that you can return to your old normal? Or is there still a newish kind of normal to face?




					www.npr.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Yeah that’s one of my weakness I’ll cope to.  I’m processing a wide range of info on a variety of topics with very limited time. So unfortunately I don’t have the time to deep dive except for a few key ones like the Bangladesh study.  My read and type count btw is very very high…back in high school the woman who tested me said it was the highest she’s seen but it does mean I sometimes miss gems and the footnotes in law school were a pain
> 
> there’s a new one out of Denmark that you might like. Can’t post it now since I’m remote (soccer). But it’s very clear the boosted do better than the two than the one than the none until you throw in the naturally immune. The naturally immune outperform the no vax and one vax, naturally immune +1 vax outperform the vax 1 and vax 2. And it’s not even close in any of the three metrics of cases, hospital or death.  It’s in danish and haven’t found a translation yet so tough read.


IMO flitting around from one cohort study to another without trying to understand what's driving the underlying variability in the results is chasing your tail. So I'll persist.  The question was "what does the fact that we don't know what constitutes a protective Ab titer at an individual level" mean for the spate of cohort studies that are being done (comparatively cheap compared to randomized sampling, can be done by single labs).  You've posted data showing that irrespective of how an individual's immune system is primed to CoV-2 there can be a 1000X variation in antibody titers at a comparable time post priming.  What determines that variation and what does it mean for the kinetics with which an infection primed vs vaxx primed person becomes susceptible to reinfection?  CDC says we don't know.  If we don't know, it can't be taken into account in drawing up what we think are comparable cohorts.  How do you think that might affect the outcome of such studies?


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO flitting around from one cohort study to another without trying to understand what's driving the underlying variability in the results is chasing your tail. So I'll persist.  The question was "what does the fact that we don't know what constitutes a protective Ab titer at an individual level" mean for the spate of cohort studies that are being done (comparatively cheap compared to randomized sampling, can be done by single labs).  You've posted data showing that irrespective of how an individual's immune system is primed to CoV-2 there can be a 1000X variation in antibody titers at a comparable time post priming.  What determines that variation and what does it mean for the kinetics with which an infection primed vs vaxx primed person becomes susceptible to reinfection?  CDC says we don't know.  If we don't know, it can't be taken into account in drawing up what we think are comparable cohorts.  How do you think that might affect the outcome of such studies?


I want to know something Evil Goalie.  This ia from Special Feature, "Inquire."  How come most of all the adverse reaction to jabs and deaths from jab came from bad batches that were sent to 13 States.  Have you heard about this on CNN or Fox or MSNBS?


----------



## crush

Since this is a soccer froum, what are you guys hearing about playing D1 soccer without the jab nexr year?  Religous exemptions allowed?  Who makes decisons about this stuff?  Schools?  State?  Both?  What about a private college?  Asking for a pal, thanks for any truth you can bring us because as a parent I want to know what is being pushed on my dd in order to have entry.  I mean, she doez love the game but at what risk?  Are all your kids already jabed?  When should a kid bring up the injection in tbeir arm in order to play?  Dad?  Golden Gate, you can share too bro.  Anyone, pleSe help, thanks


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO flitting around from one cohort study to another without trying to understand what's driving the underlying variability in the results is chasing your tail. So I'll persist.  The question was "what does the fact that we don't know what constitutes a protective Ab titer at an individual level" mean for the spate of cohort studies that are being done (comparatively cheap compared to randomized sampling, can be done by single labs).  You've posted data showing that irrespective of how an individual's immune system is primed to CoV-2 there can be a 1000X variation in antibody titers at a comparable time post priming.  What determines that variation and what does it mean for the kinetics with which an infection primed vs vaxx primed person becomes susceptible to reinfection?  CDC says we don't know.  If we don't know, it can't be taken into account in drawing up what we think are comparable cohorts.  How do you think that might affect the outcome of such studies?


That’s the difference between pure science and policy. I don’t care about pure science anymore than I care about pure mathematics. That’s what the experts are actually good for.  The new danish study does seem to show on a general population basis there is a significant derivation. That is enough for the basis of policy, which takes into account factors other than the pure science, and shouldn’t (as seems to be the case now) prioritize pharma profits.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You two are the two bizarro of each other fir each team. You have the same button. Why we love you.


No one compares to crush. That one is truly mental.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Since this is a soccer froum, what are you guys hearing about playing D1 soccer without the jab nexr year?  Religous exemptions allowed?  Who makes decisons about this stuff?  Schools?  State?  Both?  What about a private college?  Asking for a pal, thanks for any truth you can bring us because as a parent I want to know what is being pushed on my dd in order to have entry.  I mean, she doez love the game but at what risk?  Are all your kids already jabed?  When should a kid bring up the injection in tbeir arm in order to play?  Dad?  Golden Gate, you can share too bro.  Anyone, pleSe help, thanks


For this season wrapping up my understanding was that in the end it was really dictated on a school by school basis, although NCAA made a set of recommendations to its leagues.  I'd think that if a school dictated students have to be vaxxed card this year and the CDC is still recommending that next year that would be their policy again.  But if a school wasn't requiring a student vaxx this past fall and testing was enought to satisfy league requirements they probably won't be asking for it next year.  So how they handled things this past fall is likely a good guide.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

If vaccines are working, why aren’t they working? If universal masking and shutdowns are working, why aren’t they working?—


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> That’s the difference between pure science and policy. I don’t care about pure science anymore than I care about pure mathematics. That’s what the experts are actually good for.  The new danish study does seem to show on a general population basis there is a significant derivation. That is enough for the basis of policy, which takes into account factors other than the pure science, and shouldn’t (as seems to be the case now) prioritize pharma profits.


Pure science, pure mathematics, pooh.  If you want to play with the output you don't get to away from the process and claim to be looking at the data.  So we keep going.  If individual variation within the cohorts was greater than any intrinsic difference in protection arising from modes of immune system priming it would bin in unpredictable ways between the cohorts.  You would see a lot of variation in the studies because you would not be evaluating what you thought you were.  So the CDC looked at extant cohort studies in a comprehensive way and that's what they walked away with.  So when you say the Texas study, the Danish study, etc I'm thinking there goes Grace chasing noise.  In a cohort study, the significance you are talking about is only relevant to the group of people comprising the cohort.  Whether it has predictive value outside the cohort is what you need to be looking for.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Good to see Rogers back on the field after all the whiny bitches got their nickers in a twist.  Go Packs!


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Pure science, pure mathematics, pooh.  If you want to play with the output you don't get to away from the process and claim to be looking at the data.  So we keep going.  If individual variation within the cohorts was greater than any intrinsic difference in protection arising from modes of immune system priming it would bin in unpredictable ways between the cohorts.  You would see a lot of variation in the studies because you would not be evaluating what you thought you were.  So the CDC looked at extant cohort studies in a comprehensive way and that's what they walked away with.  So when you say the Texas study, the Danish study, etc I'm thinking there goes Grace chasing noise.  In a cohort study, the significance you are talking about is only relevant to the group of people comprising the cohort.  Whether it has predictive value outside the cohort is what you need to be looking for.


It’s a fair point but one of the reasons dad and I have been grasping at straws has been because of the censorship going on in the scientific community. Remember the danish mask study was pulled from publication (twice!) before they found a publisher because the publishers are afraid to go against the party line. You see the same thing in reluctance for longest time for the scientific community to look at ivermectin or even today the vaccine side effects. You gotta admit that self censorship is not cool from a scientific point of view.  Otherwise by now we really would have better data about masks and instead what we have is the garbage propaganda the cdc keeps putting out


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one compares to crush. That one is truly mental.


B


----------



## Soccermaverick




----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


>


Started off strong with "White Power Rangers" and went downhill from there.  At least attempt to be creative.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Preliminary Evidence Suggests Coronavirus Jumped From Animals to Humans Multiple Times
					

The origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which has caused the COVID-19 pandemic, has been hotly debated. This debate has caused substantial difficulties in the Australia-China relationship, with a call by Foreign Minister Marise Payne for another inquiry into its origin being considered by China as a



					scitechdaily.com


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> Preliminary Evidence Suggests Coronavirus Jumped From Animals to Humans Multiple Times
> 
> 
> The origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which has caused the COVID-19 pandemic, has been hotly debated. This debate has caused substantial difficulties in the Australia-China relationship, with a call by Foreign Minister Marise Payne for another inquiry into its origin being considered by China as a
> 
> 
> 
> scitechdaily.com


Once the CDC and FDA approves vaccinations for our dogs and cats its really going to be a turning point in the battle against Covid.


----------



## met61

...wait, what? this can't be right, must be a one-off... gotta be from the only Trump MAGA bureaucrat in the CDC...whew, SQUIRREL!









						CDC busted on Natural Immunity…
					

In response to attorney’s FOIA request, CDC admits that it has no record of an unvaccinated person spreading COVID after recovering from COVID.   Read the detailed story here… &nb…




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Once the CDC and FDA approves vaccinations for our dogs and cats its really going to be a turning point in the battle against Covid.


Dogs & Cats get half off


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Preliminary Evidence Suggests Coronavirus Jumped From Animals to Humans Multiple Times
> 
> 
> The origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which has caused the COVID-19 pandemic, has been hotly debated. This debate has caused substantial difficulties in the Australia-China relationship, with a call by Foreign Minister Marise Payne for another inquiry into its origin being considered by China as a
> 
> 
> 
> scitechdaily.com


Quite possibly the worst article ever written that attempts to explain the orgins of SARS-CoV-2. Based on the article, it was immaculate conception.

Never mind that after 2 years of investigation, there isn't a shred of evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has existed anywhere for its inaugural appearance in Wuhan.  There haven't been bats, intermediate species, nothing with what resembles SARS-CoV-2.  Plenty of bats with relatives of SARS-CoV-2 though.  

Crazy how quickly SARs intermediate hosts were identified back in 2003, along with signs of infections in animal traders.  This time around...nothing.  I guess it's hard to track/investigate all of this kind of stuff  when it's "safely" contained in a level 4 facility.  It's just silly to connect an acting the fool  virus never seen before to a facility that houses crazy acting viruses and recieves funding for this type of stuff.  Way too much tin foil hat conspiracy for the masses.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Once the CDC and FDA approves vaccinations for our dogs and cats its really going to be a turning point in the battle against Covid.


Imagine the markup!  No cheap horse paste here.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I did. You chose to ignore it several times I pointed you to it
> 
> you:” I don’t like it when you read the parts of the study I don’t like or point out conclusions I don’t like to see.  You misinterpret things when you go against my interpretation”.


You have posted, and misrepresented, quite a few studies by now.

If I didn't respond to your characterization of the Texas study, it just means I no longer believe you when you post a study.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Pure science, pure mathematics, pooh.  If you want to play with the output you don't get to away from the process and claim to be looking at the data.  So we keep going.  If individual variation within the cohorts was greater than any intrinsic difference in protection arising from modes of immune system priming it would bin in unpredictable ways between the cohorts.  You would see a lot of variation in the studies because you would not be evaluating what you thought you were.  So the CDC looked at extant cohort studies in a comprehensive way and that's what they walked away with.  So when you say the Texas study, the Danish study, etc I'm thinking there goes Grace chasing noise.  In a cohort study, the significance you are talking about is only relevant to the group of people comprising the cohort.  Whether it has predictive value outside the cohort is what you need to be looking for.


Sounds good.  Maybe they should increase the mandates so that they can start jailing people after they take away the jobs they went to school for on the governments dime.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You have posted, and misrepresented, quite a few studies by now.
> 
> If I didn't respond to your characterization of the Texas study, it just means I no longer believe you when you post a study.


it’s okay dad.  Between you and Grace, we know who the socialist is.  Your credibility was DOA.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You have posted, and misrepresented, quite a few studies by now.
> 
> If I didn't respond to your characterization of the Texas study, it just means I no longer believe you when you post a study.


At this point why do we need to rely on studies when we have a ton of actual data that speaks for itself? Either side can cite a study to support their position.  For example,look at the Israeli infected immunity study vs the US study.

The data clearly shows that children have zero risk and 95% of those that died had on average 4 other causes of death.  Call me a simpleton but thats pretty much all I need to know to live my life.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> It’s a fair point but one of the reasons dad and I have been grasping at straws has been because of the censorship going on in the scientific community. Remember the danish mask study was pulled from publication (twice!) before they found a publisher because the publishers are afraid to go against the party line. You see the same thing in reluctance for longest time for the scientific community to look at ivermectin or even today the vaccine side effects. You gotta admit that self censorship is not cool from a scientific point of view.  Otherwise by now we really would have better data about masks and instead what we have is the garbage propaganda the cdc keeps putting out


If chasing data is what you're after it is hard to believe that in the most intensely studied public health event in human history you'd be left grasping at straws.  I punched "ivermectin COVID" into PubMed and got 300+ hits.  Plenty to chew on, so to speak.  There's good money in repurposed drugs too.  FDA approval for a new use is a hell of a lot cheaper. But from what you say I rather get the sense that the pandemic has been more like one big X-files episode for you.   I think there is this one show where Scully is like "as a physician I am here to tell you the internet is not good for you".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> At this point why do we need to rely on studies when we have a ton of actual data that speaks for itself? Either side can cite a study to support their position.  For example,look at the Israeli infected immunity study vs the US study.
> 
> The data clearly shows that children have zero risk and 95% of those that died had on average 4 other causes of death.  Call me a simpleton but thats pretty much all I need to know to live my life.


They like to support their doom and gloom by comparing this pandemic to itself.  Hilarious.  Experts at tyrannical policies for tiny risk.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If chasing data is what you're after it is hard to believe that in the most intensely studied public health event in human history you'd be left grasping at straws.  I punched "ivermectin COVID" into PubMed and got 300+ hits.  Plenty to chew on, so to speak.  There's good money in repurposed drugs too.  FDA approval for a new use is a hell of a lot cheaper. But from what you say I rather get the sense that the pandemic has been more like one big X-files episode for you.   I think there is this one show where Scully is like "as a physician I am here to tell you the internet is not good for you".


Remember the episode where the CDC compared this pandemics lockdowns and mandates to the last pandemic lockdowns and mandates?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Dogs & Cats get half off


Oh, it's much much worse.  Reverse zoonoses.  But I'd pay money (well, maybe not too much) for a show where Ted Nugent stumbles around the woods using soft tip arrows to vaxx the deer.  









						SARS-CoV-2 exposure in wild white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus)
					

Widespread human SARS-CoV-2 infections combined with human–wildlife interactions create the potential for reverse zoonosis from humans to wildlife. We targeted white-tailed deer ( Odocoileus virginianus ) for serosurveillance based on evidence these deer have angiotensin-converting enzyme 2...




					www.pnas.org


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Bruddah IZ

The Bizzaro world we now live in


----------



## what-happened

Austria orders nationwide lockdown for the unvaccinated
					

The Austrian government has ordered a nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated people starting at midnight Sunday to combat rising coronavirus infections and deaths.  “It's our job as the government of Austria to protect the people,” Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg told reporters in Vienna on...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## crush

*"With their draconian measures focused on one thing, stopping COVID cases at all costs instead of considering all of health harms, and a shocking lack of critical thinking about the science, this was a reckless abuse of public health and a moral failure in what should be expected from public health leaders," Atlas said. "Inflicting enormous harms with lockdowns and restrictions, they failed to protect the elderly, they failed to stop the spread of the infection, they failed to stop the deaths - all the while destroying lower income families and sacrificing the health of our children, while sparing the affluent and the elite."*
*
Atlas added that "trust in America’s institutions has been severely damaged."
*
*"Science itself has been politicized, while universities and the media prohibit the free exchange of ideas necessary to solve future crises," Atlas said.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> *"Science itself has been politicized, while universities and the media prohibit the free exchange of ideas necessary to solve future crises," Atlas said.*


This is what the anti-immune system folks willingly ignore in their studies.  Free exchange of ideas are useless if you're going to mandate and escalate draconian policies.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> This is what the anti-immune system folks willingly ignore in their studies.  Free exchange of ideas are useless if you're going to mandate and escalate draconian policies.


This was all planned to destroy the middle class and the very foundation of our country.  This place was set up to allow ALL citizens a chance at freedom and expression.  No freedom unless you obey and take jabs and boosters forever.  This is insane.  The fence sitters just sit there and allow this.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> This was all planned to destroy the middle class and the very foundation of our country.  This place was set up to allow ALL citizens a chance at freedom and expression.  No freedom unless you obey and take jabs and boosters forever.  This is insane.  The fence sitters just sit there and allow this.


Not just our country.  Novus Ordo Seclorum


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Reflecting here on moral responsibility,  I have referred to "we." For it has never occurred to me that the moral responsibility falls much less heavily on those of us on the American left than it fell on Comrade Stalin and those who replicated his feats in one country after another. And I am afraid that some of that moral responsibility falls on the "democratic socialists," "radical democrats," and other left wingers who endlessly denounced Stalinism but could usually be counted on to support— "critically," of course—the essentials of our political line on world and national affairs.--Genovese


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You have posted, and misrepresented, quite a few studies by now.
> 
> If I didn't respond to your characterization of the Texas study, it just means I no longer believe you when you post a study.


“You say things I don’t like and point out things about the study I don’t like. I don’t want to hear them so I’m just going to say you lie when you post a study and everything will be alright”.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If chasing data is what you're after it is hard to believe that in the most intensely studied public health event in human history you'd be left grasping at straws.  I punched "ivermectin COVID" into PubMed and got 300+ hits.  Plenty to chew on, so to speak.  There's good money in repurposed drugs too.  FDA approval for a new use is a hell of a lot cheaper. But from what you say I rather get the sense that the pandemic has been more like one big X-files episode for you.   I think there is this one show where Scully is like "as a physician I am here to tell you the internet is not good for you".


Meh. There’s censorship. People have even come out and admitted they are self censoring for fear of there careers. That’s not science. That’s politics.


----------



## Grace T.

Reports this am that the Uk this morning Is considering changing the definition of fully vaxxed to include mandatory boosters.  There’s been a heated debate in England over those that have been pushing boosters (but wanted to keep restrictions in place until everyone can get a mandated booster) and those that have been pushing a vaccine+ natural immunity approach.  Looks like they are circling on “let’s marry both”.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Meh. There’s censorship. People have even come out and admitted they are self censoring for fear of there careers. That’s not science. That’s politics.


That's socialism.  Many years ago when I was posting about Venezuela, there were many who said that Venezuela couldn't happen in the U.S., until it did.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> That's socialism.  Many years ago when I was posting about Venezuela, there were many who said that Venezuela couldn't happen in the U.S., until it did.


It's more than censorship, it's also advocacy. This is where our "free" media is currently stationed.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Meh. There’s censorship. People have even come out and admitted they are self censoring for fear of there careers. That’s not science. That’s politics.


Meh.  Peer review is generally more self-policing, not censorship.  There's enough crap that gets through as it is. Journals hold little power anymore, except for the very top echelon. if you go far enough down the food chain as long as it's got a pulse somebody will be willing to publish it. The politics come in more with respect to funding, not pubs.  And yeah that's a problem but welcome to life right.  Works the other way around too, you can become beholden to the hand that feeds you.  Better to stay on the poorer side and fight the good fight.  So in this big cabal you're chasing down, we've got the CDC, the cigarette smoking man, who else is out there keeping the Truth hidden away, silencing these people you speak of? Seems like defining your enemy should be your first step.  I mean, if you really believe this you could be emailing those people, what did they know, attack the belly from below.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Mandatory Vaccines?
					

Join me and see the series "they" don't want you to know about.



					upvir.al


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Guess the mandates will have a little trouble in Oroville. What goes around ...









						A California city council voted to make itself a 'Constitutional Republic City' to skirt state and federal orders it doesn't want to enforce
					

The city's vice mayor said the resolution was to "draw a line in the sand" against "a barrage of mandates." "Enough is enough," Scott Thomson said.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*What’s horrifying about calls to bar unvaccinated five year olds from public spaces is the fact that this is being done to assauge the irrational anxieties of middle-aged adults.--G. Campbell*


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Meh.  Peer review is generally more self-policing, not censorship.  There's enough crap that gets through as it is. Journals hold little power anymore, except for the very top echelon. if you go far enough down the food chain as long as it's got a pulse somebody will be willing to publish it. The politics come in more with respect to funding, not pubs.  And yeah that's a problem but welcome to life right.  Works the other way around too, you can become beholden to the hand that feeds you.  Better to stay on the poorer side and fight the good fight.  So in this big cabal you're chasing down, we've got the CDC, the cigarette smoking man, who else is out there keeping the Truth hidden away, silencing these people you speak of? Seems like defining your enemy should be your first step.  I mean, if you really believe this you could be emailing those people, what did they know, attack the belly from below.


it's not the peer review which is even the entirety of the problem.  It's that certain subjects are even taboo to be studied.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> it's not the peer review which is even the entirety of the problem.  It's that certain subjects are even taboo to be studied.


Such as?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> it's not the peer review which is even the entirety of the problem.  It's that certain subjects are even taboo to be studied.


Ivermectin, masks?  PubMed it for yourself.  Tons of stuff. What are these taboo subjects? If extant studies ignore those subjects why do you keep focusing on the extant studies? I mean I quit reading all the cohort studies based on the little excercise we went through yesterday.  But its not because they are somehow tainted or corrupted.  They are just unable to track the relevant variables between the cohorts so its a big hot mess. But people keep doing it because they can publish it and if you can't generate heat generate noise.  Whose enforcing these taboos?  I guess it could be some kind of multi-national gestalt built into the very fabric of science itself but you seem to think it is a more insidious process.  

You seem to be putting considerable effort into this, which is laudable.  I mean if you can absorb info quickly and all that great.   But if that information is corrupted, tainted or whatever you could read every single reference and not be getting to where you want to go with what you seem to be doing, which is effectively taking on an effort to evaluate a set of broad intersecting research fields.  The CDC does it on one side with their considerable resources, Grace does it on the other.  But for you maybe its barking up the wrong tree.  If there are people with faces and names out there that are saying "I'm being silenced" that would seem to be your logical entry point.  Contact them. That is how you will find out what you want to know.  I'll stop.  My apologies really.  I just find what you are purporting to do interesting but yet at the same time in a kind of internal conflict with itself.   But please keep going.  If you are driven to search for hidden things, you just have to game up and go.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Ivermectin, masks?  PubMed it for yourself.  Tons of stuff. What are these taboo subjects? If extant studies ignore those subjects why do you keep focusing on the extant studies? I mean I quit reading all the cohort studies based on the little excercise we went through yesterday.  But its not because they are somehow tainted or corrupted.  They are just unable to track the relevant variables between the cohorts so its a big hot mess. But people keep doing it because they can publish it and if you can't generate heat generate noise.  Whose enforcing these taboos?  I guess it could be some kind of multi-national gestalt built into the very fabric of science itself but you seem to think it is a more insidious process.
> 
> You seem to be putting considerable effort into this, which is laudable.  I mean if you can absorb info quickly and all that great.   But if that information is corrupted, tainted or whatever you could read every single reference and not be getting to where you want to go with what you seem to be doing, which is effectively taking on an effort to evaluate a set of broad intersecting research fields.  The CDC does it on one side with their considerable resources, Grace does it on the other.  But for you maybe its barking up the wrong tree.  If there are people with faces and names out there that are saying "I'm being silenced" that would seem to be your logical entry point.  Contact them. That is how you will find out what you want to know.  I'll stop.  My apologies really.  I just find what you are purporting to do interesting but yet at the same time in a kind of internal conflict with itself.   But please keep going.  If you are driven to search for hidden things, you just have to game up and go.


It's not a nefarious plot....it's the incentives.  Now we're into the realm of economics and the impact of incentives on human behavior.  In terms of the structure, there has been a lot of money to be made out of COVID.  From the beginning, for example, Fauci heavily funneled money into studying vaccines, less money to study new drugs, and almost no money for repurposed medicines.  Have you asked yourself why?

Masks are a similar story.  Remember the story of lockdowns (at least in the west excluding the very severe initial lockdowns imposed by some of the Europeans) has been that white collar workers basically work from home, but blue collar workers (ranging not just in supermarkets and pharmacies garbage fire police and medical offices/hospitals, but also pot shops, liquor stores, constructions, plumbing, heading/air, fast food, restaurant take out, factories, and even retail) had to keep working.  So you had the well off basically able to isolate but the not so well off forced to work.  Needless to say some of the "essential workers" (among which remember teachers were too scared to work) were worried about spending long hours with coworkers and magically the government came out with "masks are better than vaccines"...and when the Danish study came out, it was pulled from publication twice (which the authors the study themselves attributed to the fact that there was censorship).

Then remember there was the entire CDC school reopenings guidance and it turned out one group which was drafting it was the teachers unions.  

I know you might like to think that science is this purity, but when it gets mixed in with politics it's not, and it's terribly naive of you to assume it is (no doubt because being a part of that group, you want to think the best of it). It's not a grand conspiracy theory, but it does have to do with human incentives...and as I told dad4 before: I'm not interested in preaching....preachers have their role in society....I'm also not interested in the purity of the science....that's what people in the field are for....what I'm interested in is policy, but because of the failure of science, we are left with a paucity of conclusions, so lot's of people are guessing, and more often than not, those on team panic/safety have been more wrong than rightl


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Ivermectin, masks?  PubMed it for yourself.  Tons of stuff. What are these taboo subjects? If extant studies ignore those subjects why do you keep focusing on the extant studies? I mean I quit reading all the cohort studies based on the little excercise we went through yesterday.  But its not because they are somehow tainted or corrupted.  They are just unable to track the relevant variables between the cohorts so its a big hot mess. But people keep doing it because they can publish it and if you can't generate heat generate noise.  Whose enforcing these taboos?  I guess it could be some kind of multi-national gestalt built into the very fabric of science itself but you seem to think it is a more insidious process.
> 
> You seem to be putting considerable effort into this, which is laudable.  I mean if you can absorb info quickly and all that great.   But if that information is corrupted, tainted or whatever you could read every single reference and not be getting to where you want to go with what you seem to be doing, which is effectively taking on an effort to evaluate a set of broad intersecting research fields.  The CDC does it on one side with their considerable resources, Grace does it on the other.  But for you maybe its barking up the wrong tree.  If there are people with faces and names out there that are saying "I'm being silenced" that would seem to be your logical entry point.  Contact them. That is how you will find out what you want to know.  I'll stop.  My apologies really.  I just find what you are purporting to do interesting but yet at the same time in a kind of internal conflict with itself.   But please keep going.  If you are driven to search for hidden things, you just have to game up and go.


Yeah, the entry point is MANDATE first, figure out the Science later.  But alas *It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It. — Upton..*


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> It's not a nefarious plot....it's the incentives.  Now we're into the realm of economics and the impact of incentives on human behavior.  In terms of the structure, there has been a lot of money to be made out of COVID.  From the beginning, for example, Fauci heavily funneled money into studying vaccines, less money to study new drugs, and almost no money for repurposed medicines.  Have you asked yourself why?
> 
> Masks are a similar story.  Remember the story of lockdowns (at least in the west excluding the very severe initial lockdowns imposed by some of the Europeans) has been that white collar workers basically work from home, but blue collar workers (ranging not just in supermarkets and pharmacies garbage fire police and medical offices/hospitals, but also pot shops, liquor stores, constructions, plumbing, heading/air, fast food, restaurant take out, factories, and even retail) had to keep working.  So you had the well off basically able to isolate but the not so well off forced to work.  Needless to say some of the "essential workers" (among which remember teachers were too scared to work) were worried about spending long hours with coworkers and magically the government came out with "masks are better than vaccines"...and when the Danish study came out, it was pulled from publication twice (which the authors the study themselves attributed to the fact that there was censorship).
> 
> Then remember there was the entire CDC school reopenings guidance and it turned out one group which was drafting it was the teachers unions.
> 
> I know you might like to think that science is this purity, but when it gets mixed in with politics it's not, and it's terribly naive of you to assume it is (no doubt because being a part of that group, you want to think the best of it). It's not a grand conspiracy theory, but it does have to do with human incentives...and as I told dad4 before: I'm not interested in preaching....preachers have their role in society....I'm also not interested in the purity of the science....that's what people in the field are for....what I'm interested in is policy, but because of the failure of science, we are left with a paucity of conclusions, so lot's of people are guessing, and more often than not, those on team panic/safety have been more wrong than rightl


p.s. I'm actually not putting in that much effort into it.  As I've noted, one of the limitations which I will gladly cope to is that I don't have the time or interest to deep dive.  I'm only interested to the extent it has any actual impact on policy, which i can in turn use to see where the future is going.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Such as?


Breakthrough infections.  I found that the Minnesota health department was tracking it (which I posted), but I really couldn't find much besides that.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Breakthrough infections.  I found that the Minnesota health department was tracking it (which I posted), but I really couldn't find much besides that.


How about this?









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				




I googled covid breakthrough infections and this was the first of 47,000,000 returns.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> How about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh, the CDC, AKA Floppy Noodle.  And yes, they have a really tough job. Unfortunately they've been unable to stay out of the political spotlight for 20 months - making their job harder and planting the seed that they are not a reliable source of info.
> 
> Maybe next time they won't let administrations, campaigns, and big pharma  be their marketing machine.  Now they are questioned, mocked, ridiculed whenever new information is released.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> I know you might like to think that science is this purity, but when it gets mixed in with politics it's not, and it's terribly naive of you to assume it is (no doubt because being a part of that group, you want to think the best of it).


No.  It's a human endeavor with its successes, failures, weaknesses, strengths, good, bad and the ugly.  And I'd say it's because i see it that way that I'm not prone to this conspiratorial team this and team that, which I find curious.  The thing about purity, whatever that means, is coming from you.  You say that's not how you see it but, well, I have to say it sure sounds like it.  Poking at it, however, can only be a good thing so keep going.  All I'm saying is you may want to consider a different methodology because your current one does not seem to be making inroads.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No.  It's a human endeavor with its successes, failures, weaknesses, strengths, good, bad and the ugly.  And I'd say it's because i see it that way that I'm not prone to this conspiratorial team this and team that, which I find curious.  The thing about purity, whatever that means, is coming from you.  You say that's not how you see it but, well, I have to say it sure sounds like it.  Poking at it, however, can only be a good thing so keep going.  All I'm saying is you may want to consider a different methodology because your current one does not seem to be making inroads.


depends on the function. Again, if you look at my track record, it's been much more solid than dad4s or anyone on team panic/safety.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And no, you can't just justify the limitations as "well, it's a human endeavor so it's flawed".  You have to poke at it and ask why is it flawed... and that's where you come to incentives.

I've told the story before. My son and I played a LARP at Disneyland.  The game, though, was broken and so the gamedesigners kept trying to jigger with it.  But what was frustrating for them was that every time they did that, people would respond to the incentives by finding new ways to break the game.  I loved that experience...I wish every econ student could experience it...humans are wonderful (both rational and panicky) creatures that respond to incentives.  They never were able to fix it, just produce different outcomes based on the incentives placed.  Again, the reason you don't see this is because of the difference in our training....mine is to look at policy from a critical outlook....yours is to study a particular subject matter and try and determine a truth. This perspective is both your strength and limitation, but it's a limitation shared by many on team panic/safety, which is why so often they've failed.


----------



## Grace T.

This is going to push us towards booster mandates (which also explains why the UK is looking to revise it's definition of fully vaxxed).  IF it hold up, the other open question is how long does this immunity last.  Just from anecdotal evidence of having spoken to various people with different experience of the booster, my gut tells me after the one booster, willingness to comply is going to drop severely, unless you get to the point that whatever the applicable product's side effects approach some point where they mirror the flu vaccine (and remember even with the flu vaccine we have only about 50% compliance depending on the jurisidiction)





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No.  It's a human endeavor with its successes, failures, weaknesses, strengths, good, bad and the ugly.  And I'd say it's because i see it that way that I'm not prone to this conspiratorial team this and team that, which I find curious.  The thing about purity, whatever that means, is coming from you.  You say that's not how you see it but, well, I have to say it sure sounds like it.  Poking at it, however, can only be a good thing so keep going.  All I'm saying is you may want to consider a different methodology because your current one does not seem to be making inroads.


To some it’s just easier to see complicity as opposed to sifting through the complex and nuanced. Good guys vs bad guys, cops vs robbers, the news media vs “the holy and righteous”.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> To some it’s just easier to see complicity as opposed to sifting through the complex and nuanced. Good guys vs bad guys, cops vs robbers, the news media vs “the holy and righteous”.


Says the king of the righteous warriors....guess you should know.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Says the king of the righteous warriors....guess you should know.


Your insecurity is showing.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your insecurity is showing.


too bad your conscience isn't.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> too bad your conscience isn't.


----------



## Grace T.

Despite being fully vaxxed 40% of the Ottawa Senators has come down with COVID.  Assuming it's not a fluke, it's more evidence of a really high breakthrough rate.  Unless you are going to mandate the boosters (and those boosters are 1 and done), there's no point to vaccination mandate.









						Despite NHL's 99% Vaccination Rate, Ottawa Senators Games Postponed Due To COVID
					

We've reached the period in NHL history where the league will postpone games for a fully vaccinated hockey roster. Ottawa Sun columnist Bruce Garrioch




					www.outkick.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Despite being fully vaxxed 40% of the Ottawa Senators has come down with COVID.  Assuming it's not a fluke, it's more evidence of a really high breakthrough rate.  Unless you are going to mandate the boosters (and those boosters are 1 and done), there's no point to vaccination mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite NHL's 99% Vaccination Rate, Ottawa Senators Games Postponed Due To COVID
> 
> 
> We've reached the period in NHL history where the league will postpone games for a fully vaccinated hockey roster. Ottawa Sun columnist Bruce Garrioch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outkick.com


What, exactly, do you mean by “came down with”?

Were any hospitalized?  Bedridden?  Anything to worry about?

All you’re saying is that ten vaccinated NHL players tested positive for covid, feel mostly ok, but are staying away from other people so they don’t spread it.  

Sounds like a pretty normal day.   The take-home message is probably that professional athletes should patronize only well ventilated strip clubs.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What, exactly, do you mean by “came down with”?
> 
> Were any hospitalized?  Bedridden?  Anything to worry about?
> 
> All you’re saying is that ten vaccinated NHL players tested positive for covid, feel mostly ok, but are staying away from other people so they don’t spread it.
> 
> Sounds like a pretty normal day.   The take-home message is probably that professional athletes should patronize only well ventilated strip clubs.


That's  cute.  I approve. 

There are two basic arguments that have been advanced for vaccine mandates.   1) to prevent community spread.  If 40% of the team despite being vaccinated came down with COVID, that's not much by way of prevention on community spread.  Unless the boosters provide long lasting protection against community spread, and you are prepared to mandate the boosters, there's no point to a vaccine mandate.  And again, if 40% of the team is falling ill (short of long lasting natural immunity and/or boosters), herd immunity is a chimera.  As you yourself outlined, the magic $1,000,000 question is how big is the breakthrough rate.

2) to protect stupid individuals from themselves from the severe harm of hospitalization/long covid/death. The problem with this argument is that if you don't trust people to make this decision for their own lives, why are you letting them vote (or have children).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Were any hospitalized?  Bedridden?  Anything to worry about?


Is that a function of the vaccine or the fact they're healthy young people?  Maybe both to some extent, but don't pretend this is inherent only to the vaccinated.  Plenty of unvaccinated athletes have had no issues from Covid, in fact, its extremely rare for professional athletes to have any ill effects from Covid.


----------



## watfly

Based on what's reported by Minnesota (its the easiest data to find for these metrics), it looks like breakthrough infections are twice as likely as reinfection (in terms of rate).  Breakthrough is 72,268 cases over 3,234,905 vaccinated, or *2.25%,* vs Reinfection is 8,996 cases vs 837,765 total cases, or *1.07%*.

So the rate is double, but the number of cases is 8x higher for breakthrough cases.  So remind me again why only the unvaccinated are the problem and why we should discriminate against the unvaccinated but previously infected?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ahhh, the CDC, AKA Floppy Noodle. And yes, they have a really tough job. Unfortunately they've been unable to stay out of the political spotlight for 20 months - making their job harder and planting the seed that they are not a reliable source of info.
> 
> Maybe next time they won't let administrations, campaigns, and big pharma be their marketing machine. Now they are questioned, mocked, ridiculed whenever new information is released.


That's a curious way of admitting your error.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Is that a function of the vaccine or the fact they're healthy young people?  Maybe both to some extent, but don't pretend this is inherent only to the vaccinated.  Plenty of unvaccinated athletes have had no issues from Covid, in fact, its extremely rare for professional athletes to have any ill effects from Covid.


Completely agree that it is age, health, and vaccination all together.  These guys were very low risk for multiple reasons.

Because of that, there is no conclusion to be drawn.  At most, it’s one more piece of evidence that vaccinated people can still test positive for covid. We knew that.

It doesn’t even tell us much about the probability.  If tells us nothing if they all got it at the same place that had very high viral concentrations.  It tells us quite a bit if it was jumping from person to person in the clubhouse.  But we can’t say which it was without going back in time and doing better contact tracing.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Completely agree that it is age, health, and vaccination all together.  These guys were very low risk for multiple reasons.
> 
> Because of that, there is no conclusion to be drawn.  At most, it’s one more piece of evidence that vaccinated people can still test positive for covid. We knew that.
> 
> It doesn’t even tell us much about the probability.  If tells us nothing if they all got it at the same place that had very high viral concentrations.  It tells us quite a bit if it was jumping from person to person in the clubhouse.  But we can’t say which it was without going back in time and doing better contact tracing.


It does tell us one thing: breakthrough infections aren't "rare".  True, it is entirely possible that a quarter if you throw it will come up heads 90/100 times....but it's not probable that such is the result on a cumulative basis.  If breakthrough infections were "rare", you wouldn't have 40% of the team out at one time plus a few of the coaches.

p.s. again, not hard proof, but it is an anecdotal indication


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It does tell us one thing: breakthrough infections aren't "rare".  True, it is entirely possible that a quarter if you throw it will come up heads 90/100 times....but it's not probable that such is the result on a cumulative basis.  If breakthrough infections were "rare", you wouldn't have 40% of the team out at one time plus a few of the coaches.
> 
> p.s. again, not hard proof, but it is an anecdotal indication


Considering they shut down playgrounds in LA nine months into the pandemic without any evidence of transmission at playgrounds, anecdotal evidence is pretty good. We are seeing the continued approach of "mandates without evidence" in terms of the exclusion of non-vaccinated individuals who already had COVID. At least we are consistent in not requiring evidence for mandates. This guy has an interesting take.









						Chinese dissident warns Americans:  You’re already in the authoritarian state...you just don’t know it
					

Noted Chinese dissenter and artist Ai Weiwei compared the wave of political correctness in American culture to Mao Zedong’s Cultural Revolution in a PBS interview.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Completely agree that it is age, health, and vaccination all together. These guys were very low risk for multiple reasons


And yet we pretend they need to be vaxxed.

A large group also pretend that kids need to be vaxxed.

The vast vast majority of people could avoid the vax and still be fine.

There really are only a couple of groups that have a risk factor to be worried about.

Not anti vax. Certain groups need it. The rest? Doesn't really matter .

The sooner the powers that be realize the virus isn't going anywhere and only certain groups have any real risk, we will finally move on.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> To some it’s just easier to see complicity as opposed to sifting through the complex and nuanced. Good guys vs bad guys, cops vs robbers, the news media vs “the holy and righteous”.


Maybe.  I guess in the end it really seems to be all about wanting to win some kind of internet argument with team this and team that.  It's too bad really.


----------



## Desert Hound

The Covid Children’s Crusade | City Journal
					

Against ethics and evidence, public officials push vaccine mandates for kids.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Maybe.  I guess in the end it really seems to be all about wanting to win some kind of internet argument with team this and team that.  It's too bad really.


Tribal


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It does tell us one thing: breakthrough infections aren't "rare".  True, it is entirely possible that a quarter if you throw it will come up heads 90/100 times....but it's not probable that such is the result on a cumulative basis.  If breakthrough infections were "rare", you wouldn't have 40% of the team out at one time plus a few of the coaches.
> 
> p.s. again, not hard proof, but it is an anecdotal indication


It tells you no such thing.

If all ten players went to the same poorly ventilated strip club, it may just mean that they all ten had an unusually high exposure.

That tells you nothing about the prevalence of breakthrough cases outside that one club.

(You're assuming all ten coin flips are independent.  The odds are different if the coins are linked together )


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It tells you no such thing.
> 
> If all ten players went to the same poorly ventilated strip club, it may just mean that they all ten had an unusually high exposure.
> 
> That tells you nothing about the prevalence of breakthrough cases outside that one club.
> 
> (You're assuming all ten coin flips are independent.  The odds are different if the coins are linked together )


As I said it is possible that a quarter flips 90/100 heads

It is highly unlikely. And 40% is not rare. Based on this anecdote, what limited data we have in front of us (but nevertheless there) as well as the other anecdotes and circumstances we have all heard, you’d think at this point you’d be willing to concede that breakthrough are not “rare”.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Maybe.  I guess in the end it really seems to be all about wanting to win some kind of internet argument with team this and team that.  It's too bad really.


it’s because both teams View each other as causing actual harm. Remember kill grandma and dad4s accusations here about passing on bad medical advice?  On team panic you guys have been actively, for one thing, screwing with the kids and robbing them of their childhoods for what may very well turn out to be little reason (especially given how wrong team panic has been about things from day 1)


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> it’s because both teams View each other as causing actual harm. Remember kill grandma and dad4s accusations here about passing on bad medical advice?  On team panic you guys have been actively, for one thing, screwing with the kids and robbing them of their childhoods for what may very well turn out to be little reason (especially given how wrong team panic has been about things from day 1)


Kill grandma?  Guess that was before I jumped on the thread.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Kill grandma?  Guess that was before I jumped on the thread.


Oh, the good times you have missed.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> The Covid Children’s Crusade | City Journal
> 
> 
> Against ethics and evidence, public officials push vaccine mandates for kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


Hahaha!

In a sane era, no ethics review board would allow doctors to bribe young children to undergo a treatment with unknown dangers and minuscule benefits. But medical ethics are just one more casualty of the Covid pandemic, as Bill de Blasio cheerfully demonstrated at a recent press conference. New York’s mayor announced that children aged five and older would get $100 for being vaccinated against Covid—and then he made a direct pitch to those too young to appreciate the size of the city’s bribe.

“It buys a whole lot of candy,” the mayor explained.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> In a sane era, no ethics review board would allow doctors to bribe young children to undergo a treatment with unknown dangers and minuscule benefits. But medical ethics are just one more casualty of the Covid pandemic, as Bill de Blasio cheerfully demonstrated at a recent press conference. New York’s mayor announced that children aged five and older would get $100 for being vaccinated against Covid—and then he made a direct pitch to those too young to appreciate the size of the city’s bribe.
> 
> “It buys a whole lot of candy,” the mayor explained.


This is insane!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As I said it is possible that a quarter flips 90/100 heads
> 
> It is highly unlikely. And 40% is not rare. Based on this anecdote, what limited data we have in front of us (but nevertheless there) as well as the other anecdotes and circumstances we have all heard, you’d think at this point you’d be willing to concede that breakthrough are not “rare”.


You're still assuming that all ten cases were independent.

If those ten people were in the same room, it's not unlikely at all.

If you want to know whether breakthrough infections are unusual, take a look at Watfly's Minnesota page or Espola's CDC page.  Much better evidence than some Canadian Hockey team.  And it's numeric, instead of merely "rare/not rare".


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You're still assuming that all ten cases were independent.


Why do you assume they are not?

We have had now over a yr and a half of watching teams and covid. 

College teams hang out and yet we really haven't seen a large number on any one team go down.

Same thing on the pros where they spend considerable time together.

I lean towards breakthrough because we know the vaxx effectiveness drops rapidly.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> it’s because both teams View each other as causing actual harm. Remember kill grandma and dad4s accusations here about passing on bad medical advice?  On team panic you guys have been actively, for one thing, screwing with the kids and robbing them of their childhoods for what may very well turn out to be little reason (especially given how wrong team panic has been about things from day 1)


"Kill grandma" was never a claim by either side.

It was your attempt to mock anyone who pointed out that high rates of community spread would lead to more deaths among the elderly.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> "Kill grandma" was never a claim by either side.
> 
> It was your attempt to mock anyone who pointed out that high rates of community spread would lead to more deaths among the elderly.


That’s a dog face dirty lie. The word “grandma” was used by several posters on this forum not to mention on other internet places like Twitter.  Even if the word grandma wasn’t used the accusation was thrown around using other words Such as elderly.  The sentiment was clear: people on team panic accused us of recklessly endangering the elderly. I myself used the mocking term because I was accused of wanting to kill my kids grandparents.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You're still assuming that all ten cases were independent.
> 
> If those ten people were in the same room, it's not unlikely at all.
> 
> If you want to know whether breakthrough infections are unusual, take a look at Watfly's Minnesota page or Espola's CDC page.  Much better evidence than some Canadian Hockey team.  And it's numeric, instead of merely "rare/not rare".


Rare is the term the cdc is using which is why I’m challenging you on it.  You back them or not?

it doesn’t matter if they were all in one room or not. If the shot is failing 40% of the time and this is not the only case, then that’s not rare. Yousay That it doesn’t mean breakthroughs are 40%.  That is true. But if they were rare 40%would be highly unlikely


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The Covid Children’s Crusade | City Journal
> 
> 
> Against ethics and evidence, public officials push vaccine mandates for kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


Bribery is the only thing the Left has left.  When your policies suck (that's a technical term) then you have to pay people off.  At least the Right is more creative when they do it.  This is an all time low and another assault on parental rights.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Bribery is the only thing the Left has left.  When your policies suck (that's a technical term) then you have to pay people off.  At least the Right is more creative when they do it.  This is an all time low and another assault on parental rights.


When did this become an issue for the "Left"?  Isn't this the Trump Vaccine?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> That’s a dog face dirty lie. The word “grandma” was used by several posters on this forum not to mention on other internet places like Twitter.  Even if the word grandma wasn’t used the accusation was thrown around using other words Such as elderly.  The sentiment was clear: people on team panic accused us of recklessly endangering the elderly. I myself used the mocking term because I was accused of wanting to kill my kids grandparents.


I believe Husker/EOTL used "abuela"


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That's a curious way of admitting your error.


My error?  interesting take.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> My error?  interesting take.


"Breakthrough infections.  I found that the Minnesota health department was tracking it (which I posted), but I really couldn't find much besides that."


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe Husker/EOTL used "abuela"


So?

The original sentiment was spot on.  Failure to reduce transmission _*did*_ lead to higher deaths among the elderly.  

I know it makes people feel uncomfortable.  That doesn’t mean it is false.


----------



## Grace T.

Well if this holds up this is a complete disaster.  Breakthrough infections both due to the Delta and waning immunity with time no where in the vicinity of 'rare".  Natural immunity is as robust as vaccination but also fading with time.  Protection against severe disease also not as robust as previously thought and waning with time.  Antibody response in 90%+ of the UK population over 18, no herd immunity.  Herd immunity is a chimera.  The virus is not only endemic but will cause a not minimal amount of hospitalization and death for some time to come.

Well if this plays out that's the whole ball of wax. We're down to just a handful of options: the pills finally turn this thing around, boosters (which get mandated and the resulting social unrest....but that assumes the booster immunity doesn't fade....if double infection natural immunity doesn't do it it's hard pressed logically to think a vaccine booster will do it), just accept this is the state we are stuck with for some time to come at least until more perfect vaccines can be developed.

I have now no doubt that the definition of fully vaccinated is going to be changed to must be boosted. 

There's also a possible dystopian nightmare on the horizon....the situation requires repeated boosters and they are unable to either roll out the pills or they aren't as effective as thought.  At that point, I think much of the population says Fit and we have active civil conflict which will dwarf the scope of the current protests.  Not saying that it's likely....just that it's now on the table as one possible future.  

The bleakest thing about it is as we near the 2 year mark, just short of accepting our fate and moving on, this is unlikely to end even by the 3rd year mark if this holds up.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> When did this become an issue for the "Left"?  Isn't this the Trump Vaccine?


I remember all I got from the doctor for being a good boy and taking my shot was a lollipop!


----------



## crush

*Former Obama Cabinet member praises Austria's decision to lock down unvaccinated*


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> "Breakthrough infections.  I found that the Minnesota health department was tracking it (which I posted), but I really couldn't find much besides that."


When was I talking about breakthrough infections and the MN health department?  You must have me confused with someone else.  

Besides, "breakthrough" infections are so circa AUG 2021. Only media talking heads and their worshippers use this silly term.  They are infections and should be treated as such.  The virus is continuing to circulate, increasingly amongst the vaccinated crowd.  The whole waning thing is a thing.  If you've had your "shots" and haven't been boosted...well, you may be subjected to a "breakthrough" infection.  Or you can hunker down, wait until you get boosted, and jam on for 4-6 months or so, then hunker down, get boosted...and....well, you see the drill..


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> When was I talking about breakthrough infections and the MN health department?  You must have me confused with someone else.
> 
> Besides, "breakthrough" infections are so circa AUG 2021. Only media talking heads and their worshippers use this silly term.  They are infections and should be treated as such.  The virus is continuing to circulate, increasingly amongst the vaccinated crowd.  The whole waning thing is a thing.  If you've had your "shots" and haven't been boosted...well, you may be subjected to a "breakthrough" infection.  Or you can hunker down, wait until you get boosted, and jam on for 4-6 months or so, then hunker down, get boosted...and....well, you see the drill..


Boosters for life or leave our kingdom.  Jabs & Boosters look to wane away from 90% effectiveness to 70% after 6 months.  Dr. Fraud says you need to boost up around 6 month period to get the Mix in your blood cells at the highest level. Basically, if you want to play in our play pin, you need to jab and boosters forever.  You must obey & submit to those WHO know best for your life.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> What, exactly, do you mean by “came down with”?
> 
> Were any hospitalized?  Bedridden?  Anything to worry about?
> 
> All you’re saying is that ten vaccinated NHL players tested positive for covid, feel mostly ok, but are staying away from other people so they don’t spread it.
> 
> Sounds like a pretty normal day.   The take-home message is probably that professional athletes should patronize only well ventilated strip clubs.





EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No.  It's a human endeavor with its successes, failures, weaknesses, strengths, good, bad and the ugly.  And I'd say it's because i see it that way that I'm not prone to this conspiratorial team this and team that, which I find curious.  The thing about purity, whatever that means, is coming from you.  You say that's not how you see it but, well, I have to say it sure sounds like it.  Poking at it, however, can only be a good thing so keep going.  All I'm saying is you may want to consider a different methodology because your current one does not seem to be making inroads.


Methodology?  Lol!  Mandates nullify methodology.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> So?
> 
> The original sentiment was spot on.  Failure to reduce transmission _*did*_ lead to higher deaths among the elderly.
> 
> I know it makes people feel uncomfortable.  That doesn’t mean it is false.


?
"Kill grandma" was never a claim by either side.
- @dad4


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I know it makes people feel uncomfortable.  That doesn’t mean it is false.


Interestingly, it also makes irrationally fearful adults more comfortable about irrational mandates.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> So?
> 
> The original sentiment was spot on.  Failure to reduce transmission _*did*_ lead to higher deaths among the elderly.
> 
> I know it makes people feel uncomfortable.  That doesn’t mean it is false.


Failure to listen to experts (not the ones on tv, but the ones that actually have a job)  led to the faster deaths of the elderly.  How quickly we forget about decisions in states that led to unneccessary deaths in the elderly.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> When was I talking about breakthrough infections and the MN health department?  You must have me confused with someone else.
> 
> Besides, "breakthrough" infections are so circa AUG 2021. Only media talking heads and their worshippers use this silly term.  They are infections and should be treated as such.  The virus is continuing to circulate, increasingly amongst the vaccinated crowd.  The whole waning thing is a thing.  If you've had your "shots" and haven't been boosted...well, you may be subjected to a "breakthrough" infection.  Or you can hunker down, wait until you get boosted, and jam on for 4-6 months or so, then hunker down, get boosted...and....well, you see the drill..


Good point.  I confused two posters, for which I apologize.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Failure to listen to experts (not the ones on tv, but the ones that actually have a job)  led to the faster deaths of the elderly.  How quickly we forget about decisions in states that led to unneccessary deaths in the elderly.


It was in the play book.  Death=fear.  Fear is the virus, moo


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Good point.  I confused two posters, for which I apologize.


Humility from Espola, it's miracle.  I see light folks at the end of the tunnel for Espola


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> but that assumes the booster immunity doesn't fade


One has to assume boosters will fade as well.




Grace T. said:


> the pills finally turn this thing around


Unless they come up with a new type of vaxx, the solution will be better treatments.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> ?
> "Kill grandma" was never a claim by either side.
> - @dad4


Says the guy the constantly used a variation of that phrase all the time.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interestingly, it also makes irrationally fearful adults more comfortable about irrational mandates.


You might want to make an actual argument there, instead of just labelling other people as irrational and fearful.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You might want to make an actual argument there, instead of just labelling other people as irrational and fearful.


Do you even look out your window in SC County? I see kids walking to school every day for many blocks wearing masks. Every day I see single individuals in cars wearing masks. I still see bicyclists out on the trail wearing masks. There are surveys showing outrageously overestimated hospitalization risk by a large portion of the "blue" population. The irrationality is all around you. You just don't want to see it. There's irrationality on the other side as well but the media covers that. When it comes to people holding on to wearing masks, we get the "give people time to get over their trauma" articles without stating the obvious - they are traumatized AND irrational.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Failure to listen to experts (not the ones on tv, but the ones that actually have a job)  led to the faster deaths of the elderly.  How quickly we forget about decisions in states that led to unneccessary deaths in the elderly.


I assume you’re referring to Cuomo and Levine returning known covid patients to nursing homes.  That decision killed a lot of people.

The flip side is you have to give some credit to Newsom.  California very briefly copied the Cuomo/Levine policy of returning people to nursing homes.  Nursing home operators and epidemiologists screamed bloody murder, and the policy was quickly revoked.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you even look out your window in SC County? I see kids walking to school every day for many blocks wearing masks. Every day I see single individuals in cars wearing masks. I still see bicyclists out on the trail wearing masks. There are surveys showing outrageously overestimated hospitalization risk by a large portion of the "blue" population. The irrationality is all around you. You just don't want to see it. There's irrationality on the other side as well but the media covers that. When it comes to people holding on to wearing masks, we get the "give people time to get over their trauma" articles without stating the obvious - they are traumatized AND irrational.


Who are they harming?  If someone wants to wear a mask inside their car, what business is it of mine?  

Might even be rational.  As far as I know, It’s a Lyft driver who is in between passengers.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Who are they harming?  If someone wants to wear a mask inside their car, what business is it of mine?
> 
> Might even be rational.  As far as I know, It’s a Lyft driver who is in between passengers.


Who said anything about harming? I said it's irrational - specifically about the risks of COVID which leads directly to the acceptance of irrational mandates. Of the four examples I gave, you selected a special case of one of them. If only you were as critically analytical of real life as you are of lab results.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Who are they harming? If someone wants to wear a mask inside their car, what business is it of mine?


It is simply idiotic to drive around wearing a mask. 

But that brings up a question since you defend the practice. Should we assume you wear a mask in your car?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I assume you’re referring to Cuomo and Levine returning known covid patients to nursing homes.  That decision killed a lot of people.
> 
> The flip side is you have to give some credit to Newsom.  California very briefly copied the Cuomo/Levine policy of returning people to nursing homes.  Nursing home operators and epidemiologists screamed bloody murder, and the policy was quickly revoked.


Credit to Newsom where credit is due.  But you then also have to give credit to DeSantis for taking early steps to fortify Florida's nursing homes and the retirement communities there.


----------



## Desert Hound

So...then we have this...

Is it rare (breakthroughs)? Seems like it might not be.

_Of the 89 total infections,* 87 people were fully vaccinated*, the nursing home said._









						8 Dead, Dozens Infected With COVID-19 Due to Outbreak at Connecticut Nursing Home
					

Eight people are dead and just shy of 100 more have become infected with COVID-19 after an outbreak at a Connecticut nursing home.




					www.nbcconnecticut.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Credit to Newsom where credit is due.  But you then also have to give credit to DeSantis for taking early steps to fortify Florida's nursing homes and the retirement communities there.


DeSantis gets a ton of credit. 

Lets us count the ways. 

Schools were open.
Biz was open. 

If you had a kid or a biz which state would you rather have been in? CA or FL?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Who said anything about harming? I said it's irrational - specifically about the risks of COVID which leads directly to the acceptance of irrational mandates. Of the four examples I gave, you selected a special case of one of them. If only you were as critically analytical of real life as you are of lab results.


If you believe the environment is harmed by single use plastic bags or plastic straws, there is a harm...creating more pollution.  

if the argument is that it's not single use, well then it's even more irrational because the only thing less effective than wearing a cloth or surgical mask in a car alone is reusing the cloth or surgical mask alone.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> So...then we have this...
> 
> Is it rare (breakthroughs)? Seems like it might not be.
> 
> _Of the 89 total infections,* 87 people were fully vaccinated*, the nursing home said._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 Dead, Dozens Infected With COVID-19 Due to Outbreak at Connecticut Nursing Home
> 
> 
> Eight people are dead and just shy of 100 more have become infected with COVID-19 after an outbreak at a Connecticut nursing home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcconnecticut.com


This lends credence to the data out of the UK that not only protection against infection but also protection against severe illness (while still better than not being vaxxed) is also waning.  While an 11% CFR is certainly better than what it was for this age group prior to the vaccine, it's not great.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Who said anything about harming? I said it's irrational - specifically about the risks of COVID which leads directly to the acceptance of irrational mandates. Of the four examples I gave, you selected a special case of one of them. If only you were as critically analytical of real life as you are of lab results.


Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.

I believe that the anti-mask, anti-vax actions actually do cause harm to other people.  That's why I support mask and vax requirements in public places.

You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> It is simply idiotic to drive around wearing a mask.
> 
> But that brings up a question since you defend the practice. Should we assume you wear a mask in your car?


I do not wear a mask in the car when by myself.  

However, I see no reason to insult someone else for doing so.   As before, they are not causing any harm to other people.  

Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020?  They did cause harm to other people.

See the difference?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.
> 
> I believe that the anti-mask, anti-vax actions actually do cause harm to other people.  That's why I support mask and vax requirements in public places.
> 
> You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable.


you are not phrasing the argument properly.  It's not that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people.  It's that wearing a mask or being vaccinated does little to protect others and therefore should not be coerced, particularly in circumstances where the harm outweighs the benefit.  

And as usual your formulation of your side of the issue (again) completely fails to account for costs.  There is also a distinction between SHOULD get vaccinated (particularly if you are at risk and haven't had it) and COERCE to get vaccinated

p.s. I thought you had said you weren't in favor of mandates?  Reversed yourself?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.
> 
> I believe that the anti-mask, anti-vax actions actually do cause harm to other people.  That's why I support mask and vax requirements in public places.
> 
> You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable.


No, my point is that people who are irrational about an issue do not make good policies around that issue. It's really not hard to understand if you WANT to understand it. So, I guess your fear is driving your inability to understand that.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020? They did cause harm to other people.


Who skipped? Masks were pretty much mandated everywhere. Compliance was very high. 

Unfortunately masks outside of signaling do not do much to stop the spread of the virus. They have marginal effectiveness...ie in the range of 10% reduction. In other words not enough to stop the spread in any meaningful way. 

N95s? Totally different story.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.


Denying folks viral updates is a part of the tyranny you approve of.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Who skipped? Masks were pretty much mandated everywhere. Compliance was very high.
> 
> Unfortunately masks outside of signaling do not do much to stop the spread of the virus. They have marginal effectiveness...ie in the range of 10% reduction. In other words not enough to stop the spread in any meaningful way.
> 
> N95s? Totally different story.


Not sure I agree with you on 10%.  More importantly, you and I differ about the value of a 10% change to transmissibility.

To me, 10% is a sizable fraction of a solution.  Roughly 1/11 of what we needed to do back then.

If you believe the 40% estimates, then it was almost half of what we needed to do.

Either way, it wasn‘t going to stop covid on its own, but it was certainly a step worth taking.

Unlike, say, taking down all the basketball hoops.  That was a step which caused harm.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020?  They did cause harm to other people.


Harm?  Viral updates are getting us to a world population of 8 billion.  The old and or immune compromised die off whether there is a pandemic or not.  We don't need ignorant and arrogant experts telling us otherwise.  There is too much evidence out there to refute the flat earth beliefs that you people hold.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Good point.  I confused two posters, for which I apologize.


I expected some follow-on to this.  Let's see -- Grace stated that some research topics are taboo, I asked for examples, the example provided by watfly was breakthrough infections, which I pointed out is not true.  Shall we continue from there?

Grace -- which topics are taboo?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Not sure I agree with you on 10%.  More importantly, you and I differ about the value of a 10% change to transmissibility.


So much for vax efficacy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Credit to Newsom where credit is due.  But you then also have to give credit to DeSantis for taking early steps to fortify Florida's nursing homes and the retirement communities there.


Newsome doesn't deserve any credit for decisions he made with no skin in the game.  Why was he or any other unelected official even involved in the decision to mortally jeopardize peoples lives?  People with skin in the game should have been able to make their own individual decisions.  I'm not cutting socialist any slack.  Especially for Mr. "Seasonality" when it suits him.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> No, my point is that people who are irrational about an issue do not make good policies around that issue. It's really not hard to understand if you WANT to understand it. _*So, I guess your fear is driving your inability to understand that.*_


This is what bugs me most about modern politics.  You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational.  In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.

It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“.   No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.


----------



## watfly

CDC Hasn't Updated COVID Vax Breakthrough Data
					

Agency doesn't report real-time breakthrough data, but states provide some answers




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## watfly

For shits and giggles I compared San Diego County vs Santa Clara County in re: to Covid death rates.  Interesting SD is slightly better for those younger than 40; however, for 40+ SC has done substantially better.  If you look at demographics Asians have typically done better with Covid and Hispanics/Latinos worse.   SC has nearly the 3 times the percentage of population of Asians and a smaller relative Hispanic population as compared to SD.  Draw your own conclusions.  Didn't have the energy to do LA County as they make it difficult to extract their data in a meaningful fashion.


Deaths Per 100,000San DiegoSanta ClaraDiff19 or Under                 0.2                 0.8          (0.6)20-29                 4.0                 3.6            0.430-39                 9.6               11.4          (1.8)40-49               38.8               24.2          14.650-59            101.9               64.2          37.760-69            259.2            133.0        126.270-79            497.8            311.4        186.480+         1,467.1         1,119.5        347.6Total            127.7               94.0          33.7

San DiegoSanta Clara% of Pop# of Deaths% of Pop# of DeathsHispanic33%​45%​26%​32%​White45%​36%​32%​28%​Black5%​4%​2%​3%​Asian13%​10%​36%​22%​Other/Unknown4%​4%​4%​15%​


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> This is what bugs me most about modern politics.  You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational.  In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.
> 
> It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“.   No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.


a. You are fearful.  That's pretty much been established by you conduct (the N95 masks in the supermarket)and you yourself have admitted it from time to time that you have an issue.
b. You certainly aren't alone, as has been pointed out to you by the people driving in masks or walking outside with masks
c. a lot of the policy on team panic is being driven by fear and an inability to properly calculate risk.  There was, as you'll recall, the poll which showed an inordinate amount of Ds who felt getting COVID meant necessarily a trip to the hospital.
c. It is absolutely true you can have the positions from team panic and come up with the position rationally.  That would require actually doing a cost benefit analysis and defending it, but instead what we've gotten is "you are killing grandma" or "if it even saves one life isn't it worth it" and stuff which just isn't supported by the data such as when schools were shut down on the justification of saving kids lives/saving kids from long COVID/saving kids from hospitalization or religion in the absence of data such as masks.

All true.

The libs who say misinformed sometimes have a point.  It depends on the information and whether it's true or not.


----------



## Grace T.

nearly 100% adults vaxxed and highest vaccination rate right now in the world  There is no herd immunity.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460682752806719489


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> nearly 100% adults vaxxed and highest vaccination rate right now in the world  There is no herd immunity.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460682752806719489


Grace, look up the population of Gibraltar.  Then look up the annual number of tourists to Gibraltar.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> nearly 100% adults vaxxed and highest vaccination rate right now in the world  There is no herd immunity.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460682752806719489


It also shows the uselessness of vaxx mandates/passports. 

By that I mean here you have an area with about 100% vaxxed and yet they are spreading it amongst themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Then look up the annual number of tourists to Gibraltar.


Being in the travel biz, I can tell you that the peak season into Gibraltar is over the summer months. Aug being the big month. Note that during Aug cases were declining. Right now it is low season for tourism and yet cases are skyrocketing.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> It also shows the uselessness of vaxx mandates/passports.
> 
> By that I mean here you have an area with about 100% vaxxed and yet they are spreading it amongst themselves.


We've managed to create the best ever self licking ice cream cone. Big government and big pharma love it.  One loves the control, the other loves the profit. 

 Until a vaccine is developed that provides robust real  immunity, this is what we have to look forward to.  The vaccine wanes, the booster wanes, the virus mutates.  I guess what is lost on people is that the silver lining in this thing is that hospitalization and deaths are significantly reduced.  Instead of championing that idea and developing treament strategy, fear porn will continue to be peddled and the silly idea of eradication continues to live.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Being in the travel biz, I can tell you that the peak season into Gibraltar is over the summer months. Aug being the big month. Note that during Aug cases were declining. Right now it is low season for tourism and yet cases are skyrocketing.


Gibraltar traditionally has 10 million tourists per year, and a population of 33,000 people.  Even during low season, tourists vastly outnumber locals.

”cases per capita” means you take the number of tourist covid cases and divide it by the number of residents.  Not really a meaningful metric.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, look up the population of Gibraltar.  Then look up the annual number of tourists to Gibraltar.


You always shift the goalpost.  As Hound has said, it's the off season.  A better argument is that the border with Spain is porous and workers cross back and forth.  But then that blows your Martha's Vineyard argument out of the water.  It also means you are saying there is no herd immunity unless you seal off a high vaccinated place from the rest of the world or hit 90%+ of vaccination in the entire world.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Gibraltar traditionally has 10 million tourists per year, and a population of 33,000 people.  Even during low season, tourists vastly outnumber locals.
> 
> ”cases per capita” means you take the number of tourist covid cases and divide it by the number of residents.  Not really a meaningful metric.


Gibraltar's current tourist season has been very restricted.  You can't be on their red zone countries.  You have to be vaxxed or you have to take a COVID test before and after leaving the country.  Hotels are also very sparse in the territory....most tourists visiting are day tourists crossing in from other areas.  And many of the attractions such as the caves have been closed.  It's a day trip location., not a resort.

The exceptions are Spanish (mostly there for work) and English (mostly visiting relatives and/or conducting business).  Again, your argument is that 90%+ vax rate is not enough unless you shut down travel and/or the world is 90% or more vaxxed.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> We've managed to create the best ever self licking ice cream cone. Big government and big pharma love it.  One loves the control, the other loves the profit.
> 
> Until a vaccine is developed that provides robust real  immunity, this is what we have to look forward to.  The vaccine wanes, the booster wanes, the virus mutates.  I guess what is lost on people is that the silver lining in this thing is that hospitalization and deaths are significantly reduced.  Instead of championing that idea and developing treament strategy, fear porn will continue to be peddled and the silly idea of eradication continues to live.


Yup, and the kicker according to the John Campbell stuff I posted is if true, we aren't just looking at 2 years of this but at a minimum 3 (think about it...if you are pro restriction this is the half way mark right now).  As Hound says, best option for the vulnerable is to deploy the pills quickly.  Everyone else, get your cold and live your life.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Gibraltar's current tourist season has been very restricted.  You can't be on their red zone countries.  You have to be vaxxed or you have to take a COVID test before and after leaving the country.  Hotels are also very sparse in the territory....most tourists visiting are day tourists crossing in from other areas.  And many of the attractions such as the caves have been closed.  It's a day trip location., not a resort.
> 
> The exceptions are Spanish (mostly there for work) and English (mostly visiting relatives and/or conducting business).  Again, your argument is that 90%+ vax rate is not enough unless you shut down travel and/or the world is 90% or more vaxxed.


Why does that change anything?  You’re still comparing apples and oranges: tourist cases versus local population.

Adding in Spanish workers just makes your argument even weaker.  Now you are comparing tourist cases _plus_ Spanish worker cases versus local population.  That’s even worse.

If you want to make that argument stick, you need to pick a highly vaccinated place with fewer daily border crossing per capita.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This is what bugs me most about modern politics.  You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational.  In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.
> 
> It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“.   No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.


We have disagreed often but I have a better perspective and understand more because of your posts. I don't look at it as if we are on different sides.

Fear and irrationality visit all of us at one time or another but I was simply parroting your "punchline" sentence - except that I actually tied the reason I stated (your fear) to something that was happening in our discourse - you weren't understanding my point and were trying to change the conversation to something else. In changing our conversation you made assumptions that were not true, only addressed two mandates and generalized to all mandates, and trivialized your argument by completely ignoring any "harm" done by mandates.

"You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable."

You never really addressed the crux of my argument - that irrationality regarding COVID does not lead to rational mandates. You simply took a special case of one of the examples I gave and said it "might even be rational". To my mind, irrational mandates happened with sports and playgrounds last year and continue with mask mandates for young children and the lack of consideration for natural immunity in the vaccine mandates.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why does that change anything?  You’re still comparing apples and oranges: tourist cases versus local population.
> 
> Adding in Spanish workers just makes your argument even weaker.  Now you are comparing tourist cases _plus_ Spanish worker cases versus local population.  That’s even worse.
> 
> If you want to make that argument stick, you need to pick a highly vaccinated place with fewer daily border crossing per capita.


You've just conceded it!  You've just said yeah you moved the goalpost again!  You've just said that you can't get to herd immunity unless you have almost all your population faxed and you've basically stopped other outsiders from coming in (or the world is totally vaxxed).  Don't you see how absurd that it?  You are essentially saying that even if the population is fully vaxxed, herd immunity is a chimera (which is what we've been telling you these last several days)...the only difference is you are still grasping at the illusionary straws of "borders"....seen our southern border?....good luck with that one!


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Adding in Spanish workers just makes your argument even weaker.


Actually it does not make anything weaker. 

What the data shows is that even amongst a population that is about 100% vaxxed, there isn't protection against the spread of the virus. 

That is the key takeaway. 

You said a month or so ago you and some friends were mad at the unvaxxed because if they only vaxxed up this would all be over soon. 

The reality is the virus spreads easily through vaxxed populations. If it didn't, Gibraltar would not have the highest case count they have ever had.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> This is what bugs me most about modern politics.  You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational.  In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.
> 
> It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“.   No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.


Your opinion is endorsed by a mandate.  WLB.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You've just conceded it!  You've just said yeah you moved the goalpost again!  You've just said that you can't get to herd immunity unless you have almost all your population faxed and you've basically stopped other outsiders from coming in (or the world is totally vaxxed).  Don't you see how absurd that it?  You are essentially saying that even if the population is fully vaxxed, herd immunity is a chimera (which is what we've been telling you these last several days)...the only difference is you are still grasping at the illusionary straws of "borders"....seen our southern border?....good luck with that one!


Conceded what?  You brought up a meaningless statistic, and I pointed out that your statistic is meaningless.  

That’s kind of all that happened.

Now you’re going to try to make some US/Gibraltar equivalence:   “Border crossings are significant there, therefore border crossings are significant here.“.  

US has just under one daily border crossing per 330 residents.  Gibraltar has almost one daily border crossing per one resident.  The impact on them is about 300 times as large as the impact on us.  Just because border crossings complicate herd immunity for Gibraltar doesn’t mean border crossings are at all meaninful for herd immunity in the US.  It’s literally 300X more important to them than to us.  This isn’t even apples to oranges.  This is grapes to watermelons.


----------



## Grace T.

an example of kicking and screaming's irrational and fearful....she has natural antibodies....who's antiscience?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460690664107167749


----------



## Bruddah IZ

I still come across people who think it's some kind of conspiracy theory to say the vaccines don't "stop the spread."

But the head of the CDC has conceded this, and now (with the evidence too overwhelming to ignore) Dr. Fauci is conceding this, as well as waning effectiveness.

I am shocked at how many people don't realize this, or who blindly accept the propaganda behind the vaccine passport system -- that allowing the vaccinated to interact only with other vaccinated people will "stop the spread."

What other explanation can there be for the chart below other than that the vaccines do not stop the spread? This is Iceland, one of the world's most vaccinated countries, and where restrictions are now being reintroduced. (The orange line tracks vaccination rate.)










I'd also like to share this chart, courtesy of a friend:










He writes:

_What can we learn from this graph?
- open schools don't drive covid
- full football stadiums don't drive covid
- lack of masking doesn't drive covid
- no vax mandates don't drive covid

What drives these curves?
1) we don’t fully know, 2) to the extent we do, regional seasonality appears to play the biggest role, and 3) possibly constrained by natural immunity.

*Nothing new. Just another example of the experts being wrong about everything again.—T. Woods*_


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Actually it does not make anything weaker.
> 
> What the data shows is that even amongst a population that is about 100% vaxxed, there isn't protection against the spread of the virus.
> 
> That is the key takeaway.
> 
> You said a month or so ago you and some friends were mad at the unvaxxed because if they only vaxxed up this would all be over soon.
> 
> The reality is the virus spreads easily through vaxxed populations. If it didn't, Gibraltar would not have the highest case count they have ever had.


Sure.  And your conclusion is valid in any jurisdiction with more than 30 annual tourists per local resident.

It just does not apply to the 99.9% of the world‘s population which doesn’t live in a tourist trap.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Conceded what?  You brought up a meaningless statistic, and I pointed out that your statistic is meaningless.
> 
> That’s kind of all that happened.
> 
> Now you’re going to try to make some US/Gibraltar equivalence:   “Border crossings are significant there, therefore border crossings are significant here.“.
> 
> US has just under one daily border crossing per 330 residents.  Gibraltar has almost one daily border crossing per one resident.  The impact on them is about 300 times as large as the impact on us.  Just because border crossings complicate herd immunity for Gibraltar doesn’t mean border crossings are at all meaninful for herd immunity in the US.  It’s literally 300X more important to them than to us.  This isn’t even apples to oranges.  This is grapes to watermelons.


  Dude, you moved the goalpost.  You've basically said even if a population is 100% vaxxed, herd immunity isn't possible if there are people coming in from other areas that aren't 100% vaxxed.

You've destroyed your Martha's Vineyard argument (think of the weekend daytrippers there in the summer).  You've said San Diego and Texas can't reach herd immunity given the border crossing (which for them is a huge deal than lumping in Missouri's population to say 1 border crossing per 330 residents).  You are also saying then for New York City herd immunity is impossible unless the residents of surrounding New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey are fully vaccinated (even though they also are overwhelmingly day commuters just like in Gibraltar).

You are saying that herd immunity is impossible while there is a large motion of people (even if those people don't stay overnight in the location, as in Gibraltar).  So we've gone from 70%, to 85% to 90% to 100% to 100%+ everyone in travel distance to get to herd immunity.  You may as well say there's no such thing until everyone in the globe is vaccinated because you know what, people travel.  Do you ever get tired of pushing those big goals around the field???


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> an example of kicking and screaming's irrational and fearful....she has natural antibodies....who's antiscience?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460690664107167749


And she’s hot too!! You can’t vaccinate away Behar ugly.  The View is welk known for their flat earth opinions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Dude, you moved the goalpost.  You've basically said even if a population is 100% vaxxed, herd immunity isn't possible if there are people coming in from other areas that aren't 100% vaxxed.
> 
> You've destroyed your Martha's Vineyard argument (think of the weekend daytrippers there in the summer).  You've said San Diego and Texas can't reach herd immunity given the border crossing (which for them is a huge deal than lumping in Missouri's population to say 1 border crossing per 330 residents).  You are also saying then for New York City herd immunity is impossible unless the residents of surrounding New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey are fully vaccinated (even though they also are overwhelmingly day commuters just like in Gibraltar).
> 
> You are saying that herd immunity is impossible while there is a large motion of people (even if those people don't stay overnight in the location, as in Gibraltar).  So we've gone from 70%, to 85% to 90% to 100% to 100%+ everyone in travel distance to get to herd immunity.  You may as well say there's no such thing until everyone in the globe is vaccinated because you know what, people travel.  Do you ever get tired of pushing those big goals around the field???


I am saying Gibraltar doesn’t count as a “population” for purposes of epidemiology.  Too small and too porous.

New York and Texas?  Neither one is all that small.  If New York City had 8 million daily commuters, or Texas had 20 million daily commuters, then they’d look like Gibraltar and you’d be right.  But they don’t, and you’re not.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I am saying Gibraltar doesn’t count as a “population” for purposes of epidemiology.  Too small and too porous.
> 
> New York and Texas?  Neither one is all that small.  If New York City had 8 million daily commuters, or Texas had 20 million daily commuters, then they’d look like Gibraltar and you’d be right.  But they don’t, and you’re not.


The question you are avoiding is why are cases skyrocketing in a population that is about 100% vaxxed? 

What does that say about the vaxx? 

It tells you breakthrough cases are not rare.


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> You can’t vaccinate away Behar ugly.


Or stupid, but the ugliest thing about her is her personality.

At the last police shooting she said the cop just should have shot in the air.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> an example of kicking and screaming's irrational and fearful....she has natural antibodies....who's antiscience?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460690664107167749


Does any critically thinking individual take anything from our media outlets at face value? As they attempt to reign in the other extreme, their own earned lack of credibility continues to drive people toward it.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The question you are avoiding is why are cases skyrocketing in a population that is about 100% vaxxed?
> 
> What does that say about the vaxx?
> 
> It tells you breakthrough cases are not rare.


What does it say?  Nothing.   With millions of visitors and 33K locals, it’s all noise and no signal.   Even the vax rate is all noise.  A tiny fraction of people getting vaccinated while on holiday would be enough to mess up the counts.

If you want to know whether breakthrough cases are rare, take a look at Watfly’s MN page.  SCC also breaks out the vaccinated case rate from the unvax.   For SCC, the jab reduces your odds of a positive test by about 82%: from 33.7 per 100K to 6.2 per 100K.






						COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
					






					covid19.sccgov.org
				




It’s an 80% reduction.  I’ll let you worry about whether that counts as “rare” or not.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> Dude, you moved the goalpost.  You've basically said even if a population is 100% vaxxed, herd immunity isn't possible if there are people coming in from other areas that aren't 100% vaxxed.
> 
> You've destroyed your Martha's Vineyard argument (think of the weekend daytrippers there in the summer).  You've said San Diego and Texas can't reach herd immunity given the border crossing (which for them is a huge deal than lumping in Missouri's population to say 1 border crossing per 330 residents).  You are also saying then for New York City herd immunity is impossible unless the residents of surrounding New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey are fully vaccinated (even though they also are overwhelmingly day commuters just like in Gibraltar).
> 
> You are saying that herd immunity is impossible while there is a large motion of people (even if those people don't stay overnight in the location, as in Gibraltar).  So we've gone from 70%, to 85% to 90% to 100% to 100%+ everyone in travel distance to get to herd immunity.  You may as well say there's no such thing until everyone in the globe is vaccinated because you know what, people travel.  Do you ever get tired of pushing those big goals around the field???


The herd is nearly 8 billion worldwide.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am saying Gibraltar doesn’t count as a “population” for purposes of epidemiology.  Too small and too porous.
> 
> New York and Texas?  Neither one is all that small.  If New York City had 8 million daily commuters, or Texas had 20 million daily commuters, then they’d look like Gibraltar and you’d be right.  But they don’t, and you’re not.


It's always something.  Whenever you don't like the solution, you always wave it away (like Los Angeles and your preferred solution).  How about Singapore (that one's great because they had masks + vaccination)?  Iceland?  The UK itself?  Waive away.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> Being in the travel biz, I can tell you that the peak season into Gibraltar is over the summer months. Aug being the big month. Note that during Aug cases were declining. Right now it is low season for tourism and yet cases are skyrocketing.


Apparently daily border traffic between Gibraltar & Spain alone is about 10K people, which is a third of the population of Gibraltar. Spain does have very high vaccination rates also mind.

The graph is a bit weird, probably as its scaling per million for a place with a population of 33,000. The vaccination rate is apparently at 120% with the cases at 1500. The maximum cases ever there was 1300 and the current is 475, or 1.4% of the population.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> If it didn't, Gibraltar would not have the highest case count they have ever had.


It doesn't, the highest case count was 3 times that number.

Gibraltar COVID: 6,634 Cases and 98 Deaths - Worldometer (worldometers.info)


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You might want to make an actual argument there, instead of just labelling other people as irrational and fearful.


It’s easier to label others as the fearful . . . makes one feel better about the decisions they would want to make for others.


----------



## Grace T.

This is hilarious.  The host thinks her guest is going to go one way and bash Donald Trump and he goes completely a different way she didn't contemplate....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460394724389363715


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Who are they harming?  If someone wants to wear a mask inside their car, what business is it of mine?
> 
> Might even be rational.  As far as I know, It’s a Lyft driver who is in between passengers.


Assuming the situation of others and wanting to decide how they should live their lives is the realm of the presumptuous. You never know what someone else’s experiences have been.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It's always something.  Whenever you don't like the solution, you always wave it away (like Los Angeles and your preferred solution).  How about Singapore (that one's great because they had masks + vaccination)?  Iceland?  The UK itself?  Waive away.


Singapore?

You mean the country that has fewer than 600 covid deaths and a population of almost 6 million people?  The country which has fewer than 5% as many covid deaths per capita as the US?   The incredibly densely populated country which managed to almost entirely avoid covid mortality?  That Singapore?

They wore masks, then got vaccinated, then opened up.  They’re already past their delta peak, and still have almost no deaths.

I don’t think you could possibly have chosen a worse example to make a case against vaccines and masks.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Who said anything about harming? I said it's irrational - specifically about the risks of COVID which leads directly to the acceptance of irrational mandates. Of the four examples I gave, you selected a special case of one of them. If only you were as critically analytical of real life as you are of lab results.


People do many things they feel will keep them from harm that may be unnecessary, that doesn’t necessarily make them “irrational” does it? I’d list them but that would be redundant.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Singapore?
> 
> You mean the country that has fewer than 600 covid deaths and a population of almost 6 million people?  The country which has fewer than 5% as many covid deaths per capita as the US?   The incredibly densely populated country which managed to almost entirely avoid covid mortality?  That Singapore?
> 
> They wore masks, then got vaccinated, then opened up.  They’re already past their delta peak, and still have almost no deaths.
> 
> I don’t think you could possibly have chosen a worse example to make a case against vaccines and masks.


Err look at the spike.  The spike's duration was the roughly same as every other country including Australia that went through it. 
And they've gotten the same plateau as England.  Nice try.









						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




p.s. why are you bringing up deaths?  You think masks now are a magic talisman against deaths if people fall ill?  I think you and I agree that the vaccines are very useful in reducing the death rate.  Where we disagree is whether vaccination (whether alone or coupled with masks) is enough to bring cases into herd immunity.  Nothing in the Singapore numbers is useful to you making that case.  Seriously, at this point you are just sticking your fingers in your ears and just wishing things operate like you wish they do.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This is hilarious.  The host thinks her guest is going to go one way and bash Donald Trump and he goes completely a different way she didn't contemplate....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460394724389363715


How do you know what they were expecting?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> No, my point is that people who are irrational about an issue do not make good policies around that issue. It's really not hard to understand if you WANT to understand it. So, I guess your fear is driving your inability to understand that.


You don’t believe in “Better safe than sorry”?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How do you know what they were expecting?


Fair but given the way the Trump question was phrased, and given that it's PBS, would you bet a $100 they were expecting that answer?  $1000?  $10,000?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Or stupid, but the ugliest thing about her is her personality.
> 
> At the last police shooting she said the cop just should have shot in the air.


She should ask Baldwin about shooting.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> a. You are fearful.  That's pretty much been established by you conduct (the N95 masks in the supermarket)and you yourself have admitted it from time to time that you have an issue.
> b. You certainly aren't alone, as has been pointed out to you by the people driving in masks or walking outside with masks
> c. a lot of the policy on team panic is being driven by fear and an inability to properly calculate risk.  There was, as you'll recall, the poll which showed an inordinate amount of Ds who felt getting COVID meant necessarily a trip to the hospital.
> c. It is absolutely true you can have the positions from team panic and come up with the position rationally.  That would require actually doing a cost benefit analysis and defending it, but instead what we've gotten is "you are killing grandma" or "if it even saves one life isn't it worth it" and stuff which just isn't supported by the data such as when schools were shut down on the justification of saving kids lives/saving kids from long COVID/saving kids from hospitalization or religion in the absence of data such as masks.
> 
> All true.
> 
> The libs who say misinformed sometimes have a point.  It depends on the information and whether it's true or not.


Posts like this illustrate your inability to empathize or even show awareness that that may be possible. You continue to belittle others attempts to keep themselves healthy as if you are the sole arbitrator in the situation. Do you have pet names for people who buy whole food, shop organic and don’t eat processed foods?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> People do many things they feel will keep them from harm that may be unnecessary, that doesn’t necessarily make them “irrational” does it? I’d list them but that would be redundant.


True but you have to draw the line when blanket policies are based on irrational fear, like the measures against children.  We shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator of risk assessment.  Maybe somewhere in the middle would be more appropriate.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err look at the spike.  The spike's duration was the roughly same as every other country including Australia that went through it.
> And they've gotten the same plateau as England.  Nice try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. why are you bringing up deaths?  You think masks now are a magic talisman against deaths if people fall ill?  I think you and I agree that the vaccines are very useful in reducing the death rate.  Where we disagree is whether vaccination (whether alone or coupled with masks) is enough to bring cases into herd immunity.  Nothing in the Singapore numbers is useful to you making that case.  Seriously, at this point you are just sticking your fingers in your ears and just wishing things operate like you wish they do.


Look at the area under the curve.  Not the shape.   

Their total cases per capita are far below ours.  Yet their cases are already falling.  

They’re doing something right that we are not doing.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> True but you have to draw the line when blanket policies are based on irrational fear, like the measures against children.  We shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator of risk assessment.  Maybe somewhere in the middle would be more appropriate.


I thought the lowest common denominator was those ingesting a deworming medicine as the sole preventative?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Over the past six days I’ve taken four direct domestic flights on American Airlines. The first was last Wednesday, late morning, from Washington’s Reagan National Airport to Greenville-Spartanburg in South Carolina. Well, it was _supposed_ to be a late-morning flight. The flight wound up being delayed by about two hours and ten minutes.

The first cause of the delay was a crew shortage. The plane was at the gate before I arrived there in plenty of time for the scheduled departure, but there was no crew.

When a crew finally arrived and we passengers were boarded, the pilot informed us that someone mistakenly put too much fuel into the plane. 50,000 pounds of fuel had to be removed. ‘But,’ added the pilot (and here I paraphrase, for I don’t recall his exact words), ‘the ground crew to do the de-fueling is busy. It’ll take some time to get to us.’

Eventually the fuel was removed and we took off for Greenville. This delay, alas, resulted in my arriving in Greenville during the height of rush hour. What would normally have been about a 45-minute drive to Clemson – where I was to speak the next day for Brad Thompson’s Clemson Institute for the Study of Capitalism – turned into a 90-minute drive because of traffic congestion on I-85 South. My long-anticipated dinner with Brad and Bruce Yandle was abbreviated.

Flying back to Washington on Friday morning brought another delay, about an hour. This delay (I _think_) was due to foul weather in DC.

On Saturday morning I flew without delay from Reagan-National to Hartford to speak that afternoon at a Brownstone Institute event (at which I had the great honor to meet, and be on a panel with, Jay Bhattacharya and Martin Kulldorff).

Alas, my return flight on Sunday morning was delayed for about two hours leaving Hartford. The incoming flight was delayed. When it finally arrived, I overheard this walkie-talkie conversation between the gate agent and a member of the ground crew.



> Gate agent: _“Flight XYZ just landed and needs to be brought into gate 25. Can you get some people over here to do that?”_
> Ground crew: _“Not now. We’re busy. There’s only four of us working today.”_


The incoming plane was stranded short of the gate for about 15 or 20 minutes.

Much is wrong with today’s labor markets.

…..

Epilogue: Upon finally boarding the flight from Hartford to DC, a middle-aged couple directly across the aisle from me each had a bottle of hand sanitizer. Before sitting in their seats, they proceeded to vigorously wipe down _everything_ near their seats with the sanitizer – the seat backs and cushions, the arm rests, the window, the panels above their heads, the seat backs facing them, and the tray tables. By the time they were done with this ridiculous ordeal, I was half-surprised that they failed to wipe down also the floor beneath their feet.

This world is not right.

UPDATE: I forgot earlier to recount the following occurrence at the cocktail hour before the Brownstone Institute dinner on Saturday evening. I went to the bar to refill my wine glass with a second pouring of chardonnay. The bartender pulled out another, clean glass. “That’s okay,” I said, “you can refill this glass that I’ve been using.”

“No sir,” she replied. “Covid restrictions require that we always use new glasses.”

I smiled and thanked her as I took the freshly poured wine – and then said softly to myself, as I walked away from the bar needing that second glass a bit more than I did just a moment earlier, *“Good thing the Covidocracy is protecting me from catching Covid from me.”*

Again, the world is not right.

Don Boudreaux


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Look at the area under the curve.  Not the shape.
> 
> Their total cases per capita are far below ours.  Yet their cases are already falling.
> 
> They’re doing something right that we are not doing.


You were the one that tried to distinguish Los Angeles on the basis of a different virus and demographics so why would you compare that to a country the size of the United States and throw everything all in.  The point is with the Delta, and with their population masked, they still had an out break (which if it follows other populations is likely to simmer for a while, and notwithstanding the seasonal suppression effects (see Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam).  That means no herd immunity.  It may very well be vaccines helped limit the amount of cases...but still and outbreak, no herd immunity.

p.s. the jury BTW is still out on natural immunity ---> herd immunity.  We so far only have really the limited UK data Dr. John cited. Eyes should be on India.  If they go into another wave (given the extent of their prior outbreaks) that should tell us whether natural immunity can lead to herd immunity or not.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I thought the lowest common denominator was those ingesting a deworming medicine as the sole preventative?


That's an IQ issue not a risk acceptance issue, but we shouldn't base policies on them either.

How many actually ate horse paste vs took Ivermectin intended for human use?  I suspect that the horse paste story is more of a cute anecdote for the leftists to regurgitate as an ad hominem against anti-vaxxers and anti-mandaters.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Posts like this illustrate your inability to empathize or even show awareness that that may be possible. You continue to belittle others attempts to keep themselves healthy as if you are the sole arbitrator in the situation. Do you have pet names for people who buy whole food, shop organic and don’t eat processed foods?


a. you have no right to be healthy.  Illness is part of the human condition.  It's been a part of the human condition for millenia
b. this presumption that somehow we can control illness is a new thing.  It's the height of arrogance.  It goes along with our tech....somehow we seem to think it removes us from our animal past and the state of nature.  News flash...when the s goes down...we are all apes.a
c. it's great to not eat processed foods!  If anything, process foods tends to be high in calories and waste line more than anything seems to impact COVID results.  
d. organics/whole foods though are a bit of a gimmick. 1. They aren't necessarily healthier than the nonorganics....sure you can have a pesticide concern but the impact on your health is very small....if you live in a city you are inhaling more carcinogens from the air pollution in the city than you are from your food....2. sure you can have an antibiotic concern but you run more likely of picking up a disease if you cook your food improperly,  and 3. if you care about climate change what's worse is your are a hypocrite....GMO foods consume less water and produce less waste and don't necessarily make an impact on your health.  So yes I will make fun of you if you say you are all in on climate change but then promote organics/whole foods.  You not only aren't assessing risk properly, you are killing the planet.
e. hats off to vegetarians.  If you can keep your weight up, you are not only eating healthy, you are sparing the animals, and you are helping out the planet.  Respect


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*In a sane era, no ethics review board would allow doctors to bribe young children to undergo a treatment with unknown dangers and minuscule benefits. *But medical ethics are just one more casualty of the Covid pandemic, as Bill de Blasio cheerfully demonstrated at a recent press conference. *New York’s mayor announced that children aged five and older would get $100 for being vaccinated against Covid—and then he made a direct pitch to those too young to appreciate the size of the city’s bribe.

“It buys a whole lot of candy,” the mayor explained.

Norms of science and medicine have been flouted throughout the pandemic, but the campaign to vaccinate schoolchildren represents a new low.* It’s being led by the Centers for Disease Control with the help of politicians, journalists, and Sesame Street’s Big Bird (who appeared in a CNN special proselytizing children).

…..

Based on seroprevalence surveys, it appears that close to half of American schoolchildren have already had Covid. (The estimate was about 40 percent as of June and has undoubtedly risen during the spread of the Delta variant.) Children who’ve already had measles or chickenpox aren’t required to be vaccinated against those diseases. Why should tens of millions of kids with natural immunity against Covid be pressured to get a vaccine with known side effects? Federal officials have offered various answers, none convincing. *The CDC continues to insist that infection is not proved to confer strong immunity and even published a study purporting to show that vaccinations offer better immunity. But as Martin Kulldorff of Harvard Medical School showed, that study was badly flawed and is contradicted by more rigorous research demonstrating that natural immunity is much stronger and longer-lasting than vaccine immunity.*

For children without immunity, a vaccine would lessen the risk of being hospitalized or dying—but that risk for most children is already tiny, particularly for younger kids. (So is the risk of severe “long Covid,” and it’s questionable that vaccination would offer additional protection.)

…..

*The creepiest justification for vaccinating children is that it would “help schools safely return to in-person learning as well as extracurricular activities and sports,” in the CDC’s words. *The United States has been singularly cruel to children throughout the pandemic, closing schools and masking students for extended periods despite extensive evidence that these measures were unnecessary and harmful. Sweden showed that keeping schools open throughout the pandemic—without masks, social distancing, smaller classes or strict quarantines—did little to endanger students, teachers, or the community. Other European countries have also kept schools open without forcing young students to wear masks. Today, with most American adults vaccinated, there’s less reason than ever to close schools. Yet instead of apologizing for their previous child abuse, officials are placating neurotic adults—and teachers’ unions—by threatening still more punishment unless students submit to vaccination.

*The threat is a version of the mob’s old protection racket—Nice school you got here, be a shame if anything happened to it—but at least the mob’s extortionists didn’t target children. Mobsters were content with cash payoffs, which would be preferable to today’s demands for mass vaccination. The children would be better off if de Blasio and the other adult bullies settled for taking their candy money.*

John Tierney


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Restrictions of scientific free speech will inevitably lead to restriction of any speech deemed detrimental to freedom, as Murthy described it. David Rubin was banned from Twitter for a week in July for predicting that the Biden administration would impose a federal vaccine mandate. In September, Biden announced such a mandate and is now telling businesses to ignore the court-ordered pause to it. *While Paul’s offending statement was a scientific one, Rubin’s was merely an opinion.-- Brendan Purdy


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Fair but given the way the Trump question was phrased, and given that it's PBS, would you bet a $100 they were expecting that answer?  $1000?  $10,000?


You knew what was in her mind before she said anything?  We have a word for that.

And who is Cernovich anyway that you would echo him?

Full interview here --  (the excerpted part starts about 16:00)


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> That's an IQ issue not a risk acceptance issue, but we shouldn't base policies on them either.
> 
> How many actually ate horse paste vs took Ivermectin intended for human use?  I suspect that the horse paste story is more of a cute anecdote for the leftists to regurgitate as an ad hominem against anti-vaxxers and anti-mandaters.


The horse paste story originated in reports from poison response centers.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. you have no right to be healthy.  Illness is part of the human condition.  It's been a part of the human condition for millenia
> b. this presumption that somehow we can control illness is a new thing.  It's the height of arrogance.  It goes along with our tech....somehow we seem to think it removes us from our animal past and the state of nature.  News flash...when the s goes down...we are all apes.a
> c. it's great to not eat processed foods!  If anything, process foods tends to be high in calories and waste line more than anything seems to impact COVID results.
> d. organics/whole foods though are a bit of a gimmick. 1. They aren't necessarily healthier than the nonorganics....sure you can have a pesticide concern but the impact on your health is very small....if you live in a city you are inhaling more carcinogens from the air pollution in the city than you are from your food....2. sure you can have an antibiotic concern but you run more likely of picking up a disease if you cook your food improperly,  and 3. if you care about climate change what's worse is your are a hypocrite....GMO foods consume less water and produce less waste and don't necessarily make an impact on your health.  So yes I will make fun of you if you say you are all in on climate change but then promote organics/whole foods.  You not only aren't assessing risk properly, you are killing the planet.
> e. hats off to vegetarians.  If you can keep your weight up, you are not only eating healthy, you are sparing the animals, and you are helping out the planet.  Respect


No right to be healthy?  That's a pretty extreme position.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No right to be healthy?  That's a pretty extreme position.


No...it's reality.  Everybody gets sick.  Everyone dies, usually from an illness.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The horse paste story originated in reports from poison response centers.











						The great Ivermectin deworming hoax
					

Can You Spot the Fake?




					www.thedesertreview.com


----------



## Grace T.

Covid forever....yay!!!!



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460750242631069699


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The great Ivermectin deworming hoax
> 
> 
> Can You Spot the Fake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedesertreview.com


That confirms what I posted.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That's an IQ issue not a risk acceptance issue, but we shouldn't base policies on them either.
> 
> How many actually ate horse paste vs took Ivermectin intended for human use?  I suspect that the horse paste story is more of a cute anecdote for the leftists to regurgitate as an ad hominem against anti-vaxxers and anti-mandaters.


He's a troll. Don't expect anything else from him.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> No...it's reality.  Everybody gets sick.  Everyone dies, usually from an illness.


I refuse (so far) to just lie down and die, but my doctor handed me some Final Instructions papers on a decent visit.

And please continue.  You're doing great today.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I refuse (so far) to just lie down and die, but my doctor handed me some Final Instructions papers on a decent visit.
> 
> And please continue.  You're doing great today.


Sounds like, at the edge of the precipice, you are in a little bit of denial, huh?  It's sad...my mom's the same way.  You have my sympathies. It's a tough issue.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The great Ivermectin deworming hoax
> 
> 
> Can You Spot the Fake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedesertreview.com


Like a lot of "news" today, the narrative value is much more important than the truth.  The best part is the partisan rubes that fall for it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Sounds like, at the edge of the precipice, you are in a little bit of denial, huh?  It's sad...my mom's the same way.  You have my sympathies. It's a tough issue.


What causes me to have issues with the forms is that some of the procedures that would be excluded actually kept me alive in 2018.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You were the one that tried to distinguish Los Angeles on the basis of a different virus and demographics so why would you compare that to a country the size of the United States and throw everything all in.  The point is with the Delta, and with their population masked, they still had an out break (which if it follows other populations is likely to simmer for a while, and notwithstanding the seasonal suppression effects (see Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam).  That means no herd immunity.  It may very well be vaccines helped limit the amount of cases...but still and outbreak, no herd immunity.
> 
> p.s. the jury BTW is still out on natural immunity ---> herd immunity.  We so far only have really the limited UK data Dr. John cited. Eyes should be on India.  If they go into another wave (given the extent of their prior outbreaks) that should tell us whether natural immunity can lead to herd immunity or not.


Singapore had an outbreak?

Their "outbreak" is about 1/20 the size of ours, even after adjusting for population.

That's like pointing to someone with a 1570 SAT and saying "See.  She missed questions, too."


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Singapore had an outbreak?
> 
> Their "outbreak" is about 1/20 the size of ours, even after adjusting for population.
> 
> That's like pointing to someone with a 1570 SAT and saying "See.  She missed questions, too."


Hard to determine if you are in denial, are trying to deliberately gas light or just are so blind logically you don’t see it. The point isn’t that they don’t do better than the us (of course with that vaxx rate even if you throw out everything pre delta they will do better). The point is with the masks and with the high vaxx rate they still had an outbreak which is ongoing!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Hard to determine if you are in denial, are trying to deliberately gas light or just are so blind logically you don’t see it. The point isn’t that they don’t do better than the us (of course with that vaxx rate even if you throw out everything pre delta they will do better). The point is with the masks and with the high vaxx rate they still had an outbreak which is ongoing!!!


These aren't the droids you are looking for.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hard to determine if you are in denial, are trying to deliberately gas light or just are so blind logically you don’t see it. The point isn’t that they don’t do better than the us (of course *with that vaxx rate even if you throw out everything pre delta they will do better)*. The point is with the masks and with the high vaxx rate they still had an outbreak which is ongoing!!!


That's my point.  With their mask acceptance and their vax rate, they did much better.  

What would have happened here if we had behaved like they behaved?  We could have done much better, too.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> What does it say?  Nothing.   With millions of visitors and 33K locals, it’s all noise and no signal.   Even the vax rate is all noise.  A tiny fraction of people getting vaccinated while on holiday would be enough to mess up the counts.
> 
> If you want to know whether breakthrough cases are rare, take a look at Watfly’s MN page.  SCC also breaks out the vaccinated case rate from the unvax.   For SCC, the jab reduces your odds of a positive test by about 82%: from 33.7 per 100K to 6.2 per 100K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19.sccgov.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s an 80% reduction.  I’ll let you worry about whether that counts as “rare” or not.


You’re babbling.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That's my point.  With their mask acceptance and their vax rate, they did much better.
> 
> What would have happened here if we had behaved like they behaved?  We could have done much better, too.


Then you pulled an espola and aren't focused on the issue.  The issue is whether there is such a thing as herd immunity.  Singapore shows that there isn't.

We agree that if more people vaxx they'll be less death, less hospitalization, and yes even less cases....less cases does not mean, however, it goes away and less cases does not mean the vulnerable are suddenly off scott free.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That's my point.  With their mask acceptance and their vax rate, they did much better.
> 
> What would have happened here if we had behaved like they behaved?  We could have done much better, too.


How do you behave Asian when you’re not.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Singapore had an outbreak?
> 
> Their "outbreak" is about 1/20 the size of ours, even after adjusting for population.
> 
> That's like pointing to someone with a 1570 SAT and saying "See.  She missed questions, too."


p.s. how do you know my sat score??? Been snopping???


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> How do you behave Asian when you’re not.


The thing that cuts against that argument is that Singapore has a substantial Arab and Indian Subcontinent population as well, particularly in the underclasses.  The thing that cuts against dad4's mask argument is that Singapore is pretty much a police state that can enforce its restrictions and it's vaxx requirements with little dissent...and yet they still had an outbreak.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That's an IQ issue not a risk acceptance issue, but we shouldn't base policies on them either.
> 
> How many actually ate horse paste vs took Ivermectin intended for human use?  I suspect that the horse paste story is more of a cute anecdote for the leftists to regurgitate as an ad hominem against anti-vaxxers and anti-mandaters.


I didn’t say anything about horse paste, so? For dome an IQ issue for many others simply a misinformation issue. I have personally witnessed a few rational, good people swayed by their preferred news to believe some pretty whacky stuff, and that pisses me off.


----------



## Grace T.

The Chinese, still focused on zero covid, have taken the zoonotic reserve issue to a logical conclusion by targeting corgis.....









						The killing of a corgi shows how government power has grown unchecked in China in the name of Covid prevention | CNN
					

A series of loud bangs startle the sleeping corgi, driving it out of its bed. The door opens and two people dressed in full hazmat suits enter the living room, one carrying a crowbar and another a yellow plastic bag.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No...it's reality.  Everybody gets sick.  Everyone dies, usually from an illness.


The point is, dismissing others health concerns is nonsensical, ignorant and arrogant. As long as what you do isn’t harming others have at it. Better safe than sorry. I find doomsday preppers as a bit off but hey to each his/her own.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The Chinese, still focused on zero covid, have taken the zoonotic reserve issue to a logical conclusion by targeting corgis.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The killing of a corgi shows how government power has grown unchecked in China in the name of Covid prevention | CNN
> 
> 
> A series of loud bangs startle the sleeping corgi, driving it out of its bed. The door opens and two people dressed in full hazmat suits enter the living room, one carrying a crowbar and another a yellow plastic bag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


p.s. the Chinese have been o.k. with forcibly sticking stuff up people's butt, welding people into their homes, and separating parents and children, but dogs are where the population finally draws the line??? ^\_(;?)_/^


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> The point is, dismissing others health concerns is nonsensical, ignorant and arrogant. As long as what you do isn’t harming others have at it. Better safe than sorry. I find doomsday preppers as a bit off but hey to each his/her own.


a. Not nonsensical.  It's criticism of irrational behavior.  It's not saying the behavior is immoral.  Just that it's irrational.
b. Nor ignorant.  It's the irrational behavior which is ignorant, by definition.
c. I'll cop to the arrogant.  But look who you are talking to?  It's not like you are new to these forums.
d. 'as long as what you do isn't harming others have at it'.  Sure.  By all means.  Glad you finally agree with team realism that people should be free to make their own choices.
e. 'better safe than sorry'.  Sorry, no.  As long as what you are doing doesn't have a cost on others...by all means have it...we are free to laugh at you for it to.  You might think we aren't nice human beings for laughing, but that doesn't make it any less funny.  But when your desires and actions to remain "safe" have negative consequences on others, then it is an entirely different story, right?  right????


----------



## Grace T.

Bit of a conspiracy theory but makes an interesting argument and has some interesting data.  The chief thing that cuts against this is that unless there was a massive Chinese lockdown we didn't know about, it would have escaped somewhere into the world and some doctor somewhere would have known whatever flu this was wasn't acting like a flu and had it written up.  Still it's possible, however unlikely, the world medical community was that asleep at the switch









						China’s CCP Concealed SARS-CoV-2 Presence in China as Far Back as March 2018
					

A world inquiring about the origins of SARS-CoV-2 has been met with repeated antipathy and lack of cooperation on the part of the Chinese Communist Party. Consequently, any speculation that the CCP concealed the presence of SARS-CoV-2 prior to December 2019 must be researched through an...




					theethicalskeptic.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Then you pulled an espola and aren't focused on the issue.  The issue is whether there is such a thing as herd immunity.  Singapore shows that there isn't.
> 
> We agree that if more people vaxx they'll be less death, less hospitalization, and yes even less cases....less cases does not mean, however, it goes away and less cases does not mean the vulnerable are suddenly off scott free.


You misunderstand the concept of herd immunity.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The thing that cuts against that argument is that Singapore has a substantial Arab and Indian Subcontinent population as well, particularly in the underclasses.  The thing that cuts against dad4's mask argument is that Singapore is pretty much a police state that can enforce its restrictions and it's vaxx requirements with little dissent...and yet they still had an outbreak.


Is it "its" or "it's"?  Make up your mind.


----------



## Grace T.

1. Even Fauci is off zero covid/herd immunity.  Guess dad4 is anti-science.
2. fully vaccinated is going to mean boosters.  he's saying as much.
3. he's talking out his ass and guessing.  there's no data yet to support how long the booster immune response lasts.
4. It's possible repeated booster would be needed to get long lasting protection
5. I know now several people who have been boosted.  Many of them have had rough side effects (not debilitating but unpleasant).  I think this is their last bite at the apple.  Other than the elderly and immunocompromised, a significant amount of the people I've asked about this said it makes them feel so bad they are NOT doing this every 6 months.  If they try and force it, I think we get significant civil unrest.
6.  He's an arrogant ass that's bad at his job.  If Biden wants to save his presidency and reset the COVID response, he has to throw Fauci (deservedly or not deservedly) under the bus and reset.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You misunderstand the concept of herd immunity.


There are a variety of definitions, ranging from it goes away to it simmers at a low level (sort of where Spain was until a few days ago).  It does not mean periodic spikes, as is happening in Singapore, Gibraltar, and Iceland.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> a. Not nonsensical.  It's criticism of irrational behavior.  It's not saying the behavior is immoral.  Just that it's irrational.
> b. Nor ignorant.  It's the irrational behavior which is ignorant, by definition.
> c. I'll cop to the arrogant.  But look who you are talking to?  It's not like you are new to these forums.
> d. 'as long as what you do isn't harming others have at it'.  Sure.  By all means.  Glad you finally agree with team realism that people should be free to make their own choices.
> e. 'better safe than sorry'.  Sorry, no.  As long as what you are doing doesn't have a cost on others...by all means have it...we are free to laugh at you for it to.  You might think we aren't nice human beings for laughing, but that doesn't make it any less funny.  But when your desires and actions to remain "safe" have negative consequences on others, then it is an entirely different story, right?  right????


Again, who made you the judge? You are then basically admitting to being a shallow, judgmental, gossip. You also seem to have trouble connecting dots.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> There are a variety of definitions, ranging from it goes away to it simmers at a low level (sort of where Spain was until a few days ago).  It does not mean periodic spikes, as is happening in Singapore, Gibraltar, and Iceland.


Periodic spikes may occur in an immune herd as long as enough survive (presumably the "immune" part of the herd) to continue the existence of the herd.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Again, who made you the judge? You are then basically admitting to being a shallow, judgmental, gossip.


1. All life is high school.  Everyone is a judge.  You are one of the most judgmental people on these forums...pot, meet kettle.
2. Shallow.  Hardly.  There is nothing shallow in logic.
3. Judgmental.  Absolutely.  Again, what forum have you been hanging out with.  And again, pot, meet kettle.
4. Gossip. Nope.  It's out in the open.
5. And what exactly are you doing with this little turn of phrase.  Everything you hate is just a mirror reflection of yourself.  Hope you like the view!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Periodic spikes may occur in an immune herd as long as enough survive (presumably the "immune" part of the herd) to continue the existence of the herd.


If your definition of herd immunity is that the herd survives (which I concede is a valid and accepted definition of herd immunity), herd immunity was achieved in March 2020...this virus never threatened the existence of the herd.  dad4: espola says it's time to ditch the masks and lift all restrictions and we should have done it back in March 2020.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If your definition of herd immunity is that the herd survives (which I concede is a valid and accepted definition of herd immunity), herd immunity was achieved in March 2020...this virus never threatened the existence of the herd.  dad4: espola says it's time to ditch the masks and lift all restrictions and we should have done it back in March 2020.


You still misunderstand herd immunity.

Look back a few pages to find EvilGoalie's paper on R.  It has a clear definition and explanation of herd immunity, among many other things.

On the other hand, if you're too busy to learn the proper definition, maybe you should stop using the phrase.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You don’t believe in “Better safe than sorry”?


There's a difference between feeling safe and actually being safe.  Meanwhile, kids, small business owners and their employees, cancer patients etc are sorry.  Better safe than sorry is a nice sentiment but its not good public health policy.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You still misunderstand herd immunity.
> 
> Look back a few pages to find EvilGoalie's paper on R.  It has a clear definition and explanation of herd immunity, among many other things.
> 
> On the other hand, if you're too busy to learn the proper definition, maybe you should stop using the phrase.


There a bunch of definitions floating around out there.  One keyed on R is only one of them.   But in none of them are there spikes like is happening in the relevant jurisidictions.  I'm not the one that doesn't understand that.  You are.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> There a bunch of definitions floating around out there.  One keyed on R is only one of them.   But in none of them are there spikes like is happening in the relevant jurisidictions.  I'm not the one that doesn't understand that.  You are.


Learn the definition first.

Then think about what happens when you change behavior or change the disease.

Singapore's recent case rates are completely consistent with a place which was herd immune, then experienced a change to R.  

It definitely is not proof that herd immunity is somehow impossible.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> 1. All life is high school.  Everyone is a judge.  You are one of the most judgmental people on these forums...pot, meet kettle.
> 2. Shallow.  Hardly.  There is nothing shallow in logic.
> 3. Judgmental.  Absolutely.  Again, what forum have you been hanging out with.  And again, pot, meet kettle.
> 4. Gossip. Nope.  It's out in the open.
> 5. And what exactly are you doing with this little turn of phrase.  Everything you hate is just a mirror reflection of yourself.  Hope you like the view!


Hate is a waste of time.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> There's a difference between feeling safe and actually being safe.  Meanwhile, kids, small business owners and their employees, cancer patients etc are sorry.  Better safe than sorry is a nice sentiment but its not good public health policy.


“Health policy” vs good for business?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Learn the definition first.
> 
> Then think about what happens when you change behavior or change the disease.
> 
> Singapore's recent case rates are completely consistent with a place which was herd immune, then experienced a change to R.
> 
> It definitely is not proof that herd immunity is somehow impossible.


Definitions.  Plural.  Espola's in particular is technically correct also but very cute.

You are proposing a floating one keyed to your old favorite R.  1. That's not what Fauci's definition means (his was keyed to zero COVID though he has since revised it as in the interview outlined about, 2. if it's keyed to behavior it's not herd immunity...any definition to obtain general acceptance requires going back to pre-COVID, not a new normal however much of a paradise that new normal is for people like how., 3. It's not proof...I still think it might be possible with natural immunity but I'm open to Dr. John's idea that it's not....but it's a damn good evidence that masks + vaccination doesn't get us there.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Hate is a waste of time.


Physician heal thyself.  You are one of the biggest spewers of it so put your house in order before complaining to me.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> p.s. the Chinese have been o.k. with forcibly sticking stuff up people's butt, welding people into their homes, and separating parents and children, but dogs are where the population finally draws the line??? ^\_(;?)_/^


I had to laugh but I always come back to the fact that it's hard to hate a good dog. They always love their owner and never tell them that they are wrong no matter how big a jackass the owner happens to be. Although, we did see the "confused" dog in Australia that correctly identified the unjustified aggression. Yeah, that's just another reason to draw the line at dogs .


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Physician heal thyself.  You are one of the biggest spewers of it so put your house in order before complaining to me.


He wastes a LOT of time.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I had to laugh but I always come back to the fact that it's hard to hate a good dog. They always love their owner and never tell them that they are wrong no matter how big a jackass the owner happens to be. Although, we did see the "confused" dog in Australia that correctly identified the unjustified aggression. Yeah, that's just another reason to draw the line at dogs .


I love that dog.

My dog by contrast is an ass that always tells me I'm wrong and almost got me tasered because of his behavior.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Well, I get my Covid booster tomorrow and flu shot on Saturday. For some strange reason, it took over 15 minutes to set up the appointments last week. They allow getting both at the same time if you can find a spot that does both and has openings. It didn't help that CA hasn't approved mixing vaccines yet so I had to get a Pfizer booster. I was actually hoping to get a Moderna booster so @watfly couldn't keep holding it over my head that his vaccine is better than mine. Not really but it would have been sooner and at the same time if they would have allowed me to take Moderna.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> The point is, dismissing others health concerns is nonsensical, ignorant and arrogant. As long as what you do isn’t harming others have at it. Better safe than sorry. I find doomsday preppers as a bit off but hey to each his/her own.


What’s horrifying about calls to bar unvaccinated five year olds from public spaces is the fact that this is being done to assauge the irrational anxieties of middle-aged adults.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> The thing that cuts against that argument is that Singapore has a substantial Arab and Indian Subcontinent population as well, particularly in the underclasses.  The thing that cuts against dad4's mask argument is that Singapore is pretty much a police state that can enforce its restrictions and it's vaxx requirements with little dissent...and yet they still had an outbreak.


Get caned or get vaxxed?  That would probably achieve the behavior that Dad approves of.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

That is what you could soon be seeing when trying to purchase an airline ticket...

If House Reolution 4980 passes in Congress.

What would you do if you could no longer travel on the airlines?

Would you still be able to see your family?

How much extra time, risk, and expense would you incur if you were forced to drive across the country instead?

This could soon be a reality if House Resolution 4980 passes and becomes law.

What’s it all about?

This inhumane bill would require any passenger on an airline to be v@((!ned against C0V!D.

Even if they’re just flying one state away...

Worse, the bill includes this ominous ending, “And for other purposes”...

What does that even mean?!

Our right as citizens permits us to assume the privileges and immunities of that state.

And case law has long dictated the freedom for citizens to travel between states.

But this discriminatory, unconstitutional, and even unscientific bill threatens our freedom.

Make no bones about it - What’s being mandated here is still an experimental medical procedure.

The scariest part about this bill…

ALMOST NONE OF THE PUBLIC KNOWS ABOUT IT!

It’s been queitly worked through congress to keep it on the down low.


Sponsor:https://ritchietorres.house.gov; https://case.house.gov/ ; https://kahele.house.gov


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Definitions.  Plural.  Espola's in particular is technically correct also but very cute.
> 
> You are proposing a floating one keyed to your old favorite R.  1. That's not what Fauci's definition means (his was keyed to zero COVID though he has since revised it as in the interview outlined about, 2. *if it's keyed to behavior it's not herd immunity.*..any definition to obtain general acceptance requires going back to pre-COVID, not a new normal however much of a paradise that new normal is for people like how., 3. It's not proof...I still think it might be possible with natural immunity but I'm open to Dr. John's idea that it's not....but it's a damn good evidence that masks + vaccination doesn't get us there.


Herd immunity is inherently tied to environment and behavior.  Simple example:

You have 400 head of cattle in a pasture.  No problem.  One catches a cold now and then, but it never gets far.  That is herd immunity.

Then winter comes and all 400 are crammed into a barn.  Guess what?  A third of them are now sick because you just lost your herd immunity.

MOO!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Herd immunity is inherently tied to environment and behavior.  Simple example:
> 
> You have 400 head of cattle in a pasture.  No problem.  One catches a cold now and then, but it never gets far.  That is herd immunity.
> 
> Then winter comes and all 400 are crammed into a barn.  Guess what?  A third of them are now sick because you just lost your herd immunity.
> 
> MOO!


you are a smart guy so I got to believe you aren’t that thick. Your example is not an example of the type of herd immunity people are talking about which in even faucis dialogue refers to one of two things: a) the point where enough of the population is immune that covid stops circulating or b) the point where there are no more spikes irrespective of circumstances (it’s endemic with Spain over the late summer being the last example). You may be free to use your own definition because there are several others (like espolas) but that’s not what the authorities are talking about. If you can’t cram 100 cows in the barn in winter and that’s the normal condition of the cows you haven’t hit herd immunity. That’s why fauci and the cdc this weekend backed off the idea that herd immunity was possible

but let’s assume arguendo we are in a topsey turvey world and go with your definition. You’ve only shown environment affects the threshold in your example. The cows themselves had no say on whether to go in the barn or not…and if they didn’t go in the barn in the Minnesota winter they’d freeze to death…that’s not behavior it’s their state of being.  Moreover it’s a cold which has normal ebb and seasonal flows…not an epidemic spike which is where the concerns are.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> you are a smart guy so I got to believe you aren’t that thick. Your example is not an example of the type of herd immunity people are talking about which in even faucis dialogue refers to one of two things: a) the point where enough of the population is immune that covid stops circulating or b) the point where there are no more spikes irrespective of circumstances (it’s endemic with Spain over the late summer being the last example). You may be free to use your own definition because there are several others (like espolas) but that’s not what the authorities are talking about. If you can’t cram 100 cows in the barn in winter and that’s the normal condition of the cows you haven’t hit herd immunity. That’s why fauci and the cdc this weekend backed off the idea that herd immunity was possible
> 
> but let’s assume arguendo we are in a topsey turvey world and go with your definition. You’ve only shown environment affects the threshold in your example. The cows themselves had no say on whether to go in the barn or not…and if they didn’t go in the barn in the Minnesota winter they’d freeze to death…that’s not behavior it’s their state of being.  Moreover it’s a cold which has normal ebb and seasonal flows…not an epidemic spike which is where the concerns are.


The cold is not at herd immunity under either definition of that’s what’s happening (unlike say measles small pox or even certain Entero viruses)


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Physician heal thyself.  You are one of the biggest spewers of it so put your house in order before complaining to me.


Show me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> He's a troll. Don't expect anything else from him.


Don’t kid yourself we are all trolls in here. You can whitewash it with fancy long winded posts loaded with fancy words but in the end you still are just trolling. Trolling for acceptance, it’s human nature. Be well.


----------



## Desert Hound

Geert Vanden Bossche and Robert Malone MD Discuss COVID-19, Scientific Investigation, the Viral Revolution and Political Media - The Last Refuge
					

An interesting discussion between two of the world’s prominent voices Geert Vanden Bossche, expert vaccine developer (Belgium); and Robert Malone MD, the inventor of mRNA vaccines (USA). The meeting is hosted by Dr. Phillip McMillan (UK), who previously interviewed Vanden Bossche and Malone on...




					theconservativetreehouse.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Geert Vanden Bossche Was Right, The World's Most Vaccinated Country Cancels Christmas Due to Massive Rise in COVID-19 Infections - The Last Refuge
					

The most vaccinated population in the world exists on Gibraltar, a British Overseas Territory located at the southern end of Spain.   The average number of vaccinations is 2.79 per person for all residents. However, even with that level of vaccination density, or perhaps –more likely– because of...




					theconservativetreehouse.com


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. Even Fauci is off zero covid/herd immunity.  Guess dad4 is anti-science.
> 2. fully vaccinated is going to mean boosters.  he's saying as much.
> 3. he's talking out his ass and guessing.  there's no data yet to support how long the booster immune response lasts.
> 4. It's possible repeated booster would be needed to get long lasting protection
> 5. I know now several people who have been boosted.  Many of them have had rough side effects (not debilitating but unpleasant).  I think this is their last bite at the apple.  Other than the elderly and immunocompromised, a significant amount of the people I've asked about this said it makes them feel so bad they are NOT doing this every 6 months.  If they try and force it, I think we get significant civil unrest.
> 6.  He's an arrogant ass that's bad at his job.  If Biden wants to save his presidency and reset the COVID response, he has to throw Fauci (deservedly or not deservedly) under the bus and reset.


Listen to what Tony had to say back when AIDS was coming out and what kind of experiments he was doing on foster kids in NY.  This guy will go down as the biggest loser ever and mass killer.  Just wait folks, Dr Fraud will be xposed.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. All life is high school.  Everyone is a judge.  You are one of the most judgmental people on these forums...pot, meet kettle.
> 2. Shallow.  Hardly.  There is nothing shallow in logic.
> 3. Judgmental.  Absolutely.  Again, what forum have you been hanging out with.  And again, pot, meet kettle.
> 4. Gossip. Nope.  It's out in the open.
> 5. And what exactly are you doing with this little turn of phrase.  Everything you hate is just a mirror reflection of yourself.  Hope you like the view!


Great takes Grace T!!!


----------



## crush

So today it looks like this:  No jab, no job.  No Jab, No School for kids.  No Jab, no college soccer.  No Jab, no flying.  No jab, no entry.  No booster, not fully Jabbed.  No Mask, no entry.  These people are nuts and insane and some of the most selfish and scared folks I have ever met.  This shit is all supported by Husker Du, Espola, Dad and many other assholes who have enjoyed all the great things life can buy and they dont want others to take part in life's riches and glory unless they kneel and take injections from those WHO tell them what to do.  The days of cheating, pay to play and keeping others from true freedom will come to an end, I just dont know when.  I told my dd last year if people are getting fired for not rolling up their sleeves, well then you will be banned from going to college and playing soccer and flying.  As long as the fence sitters sit on their asses and watch our country being taken over, this will only get worse.  Calling all woke fence sitters.  Wake your asses up.  This is not a drill.  People have lost everything, kids have to take jab to go to school and wear a stupid mask and people are getting injured and are dying because of it.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

The Plays from their Play Book is so easy to read.  I don;t even need a play book.  Soon and very soon this will start flipping the right way.  Truth always wins 

Hospitals in Michigan and Minnesota on Tuesday reported a wave of COVID-19 patients not seen in months as beds were filled with unvaccinated people and health care leaders warned that staff were being worn down by yet another surge.

Michigan had slightly more than 3,000 COVID-19 patients in hospitals this week, the first time it had crossed that threshold since spring, while nearly all hospital beds were occupied in Minnesota. Both held the unflattering rank of national virus hotspots.

New Case of Virus Waves hitting are Hot Spots around the USA!!!!  Corona, Delta and their cousins are coming to a wave near you this Winter.  These waves bring surges as well so make sure to get jabbed twice and get as many boosters as possible.  The more boosters, the closer to normal you will find yourself and if that doesn't work, make sure to blame it on the unvaccinated.  They already said this will be a tough Xmas.  40% of Santa's work shop is sitting out in da ocean.  Shop early folks.  Whacky Wednesday is here and boy this is getting intense.  Abraham Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg on my bday Nov 19th to address the folks.  Full moon too this Friday.  I'm so stoked I get to witness all this amazing super really cool transformation of serious power taken away from assholes.  Oh boy I can;t wait to watch.


----------



## crush

More from Detroit.......

It "should be alarming to all of us," Bob Riney, chief operating officer at Henry Ford Health System in Detroit, said of the hospital crush.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Our friend Ian Miller, who generates so many devastating charts, had rather an amusing comment about the one below.

Below is Gibraltar, the most vaccinated place on Earth. The vaccination rate is given as 100 percent.

Gibraltar has had only a handful of deaths from the very beginning, long before any vaccines existed.

But if you were still doubtful about whether the vaccines stopped transmission (and I had several people email me yesterday to tell me that their friends genuinely believe that the vaccines do this, or at least slow it significantly), here is Gibraltar. (The orange line tracks the vaccination rate.)










Commenting on this graph, Ian said: "I wonder if the like, one unvaccinated guy in the whole country is sitting there going, 'how can this possibly be a pandemic of just me?!'"

A few other items:

* New York City is now banning the unvaccinated from public streets, at least on New Year's Eve. You will need to show proof of vaccination to watch the ball drop.

Since the ACLU, after a long period of silence, wound up favoring vaccine passports as beneficial to liberty, it seems doubtful that we'll hear from them on this.

* In the UK, the _Daily Mail_ got a hold of leaked documents describing an Operation Rampdown, whereby the UK government will walk back its COVID response early in the new year.

Among the provisions, it would:

Axe the legal requirement for those who catch the virus to self-isolate for ten days;
Shut down the national 'Test and Trace' system, which identifies those who may have been exposed to the virus;
Focus the fight against Covid on tackling local outbreaks and protecting "highest risk settings," such as care homes
'We will no longer be prioritizing the previous objectives of breaking chains of transmission at all costs," one document says.

Writes Robert Dingwall of Nottingham Trent University, former Government adviser: "I very much welcome the fact that people are planning for the end of the emergency and the restoration of everyday life. Treating Covid like any other respiratory infection should encourage people to dial down the fear and anxiety that have bedeviled the country for the past couple of years."

* I was just interviewed for a docuseries called COVID Revealed, in which all the lunacy is collected in one place. It's really devastating. I guarantee you will want to see it.

(Just to clarify: this is not the same thing as the documentary project by those filmmakers I had on my show; that will be coming soon.)

They are letting you watch it for free as long as you register in advance.

Since they're telling you the truth, they obviously can't rely on YouTube. So they'll send you links directly to the videos on their own site.

I can't help thinking, too, that if I bring them a lot of viewers via the link below, they might be inclined to have ol' Woods back on again in the future.

It's called COVID Revealed, and it highlights some of the important dissident voices that traditional platforms have been throttling.

So please register to watch using the link below, and thank you!
http://www.tomwoods.com/revealed


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> Geert Vanden Bossche Was Right, The World's Most Vaccinated Country Cancels Christmas Due to Massive Rise in COVID-19 Infections - The Last Refuge
> 
> 
> The most vaccinated population in the world exists on Gibraltar, a British Overseas Territory located at the southern end of Spain.   The average number of vaccinations is 2.79 per person for all residents. However, even with that level of vaccination density, or perhaps –more likely– because of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theconservativetreehouse.com


*When Vanden Bossche initially reviewed the high vaccination rates in Israel, Vanden Bossche warned the absence of a natural immunity population to fight the virus would lead to an uncontrollable spread of the virus in the vaccinated community.  The higher the vaccination rates, the more serious the spread of the virus amid the population that only carries the immune system protection provided by the vaccine. *

I encapsulated his outline here: *“The widespread vaccination rate is creating pressure on the virus to mutate into variants with higher levels of contagion. The unvaccinated group has been keeping the pressure down by defeating the virus and carrying natural immunity. However, as the unvaccinated population is increasingly made smaller, the pressure on the virus to mutate increases. Subsequently, these mutations stay at higher or more effective levels of infection.”

Duh! *

And if mask are so effective then again *the pressure on the virus to mutate increases.

Shocking isn't it??*


----------



## crush

A New Ad to help parents and teachers know if a child is having a stroke after they pass out and fall flat on their face or back of their head.  I would make my kids wear a helmet to school to protect them from a stroke fall.  I'm trying to remember anybody warning my foster mom about the dangers of kids having strokes in the 70s.  Weed might be the reason for this season's high rate of stroke and heart attack victims under 18.  I told a pal of mine to scare his 14 year old ds not to smoke weed anymore or that vape shit because it's known to cause strokes and that's why so many kids have heart attacks and come down with myracaratis and all the other "aitis's" out there.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> you are a smart guy so I got to believe you aren’t that thick. Your example is not an example of the type of herd immunity people are talking about which in even faucis dialogue refers to one of two things: a) the point where enough of the population is immune that covid stops circulating or b) the point where there are no more spikes irrespective of circumstances (it’s endemic with Spain over the late summer being the last example). You may be free to use your own definition because there are several others (like espolas) but that’s not what the authorities are talking about. If you can’t cram 100 cows in the barn in winter and that’s the normal condition of the cows you haven’t hit herd immunity. That’s why fauci and the cdc this weekend backed off the idea that herd immunity was possible
> 
> but let’s assume arguendo we are in a topsey turvey world and go with your definition. You’ve only shown environment affects the threshold in your example. The cows themselves had no say on whether to go in the barn or not…and if they didn’t go in the barn in the Minnesota winter they’d freeze to death…that’s not behavior it’s their state of being.  Moreover it’s a cold which has normal ebb and seasonal flows…not an epidemic spike which is where the concerns are.


Ok.  Let’s use the context dependent definition of herd immunity, and look at behavior.  People this time.

Spain looks to be herd immune.  Still some cases, but outbreaks mostly fizzle out.

Now suppose the party scene really gets popular in Madrid this year.  Too much time cooped up, and it’s time to be social.  More people, more alcohol, more hookups, less distance.  All of a sudden, you have spikes in a variety of diseases, including covid.  

What happened?  The herd immunity threshold changed.  People who used to be keeping 6 feet are now adopting a different behavior.  Put one way, people got closer to each other and disease spread more easily.   Put another way, people changed their behavior and that altered the herd immunity threshold.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Ok.  Let’s use the context dependent definition of herd immunity, and look at behavior.  People this time.
> 
> Spain looks to be herd immune.  Still some cases, but outbreaks mostly fizzle out.
> 
> Now suppose the party scene really gets popular in Madrid this year.  Too much time cooped up, and it’s time to be social.  More people, more alcohol, more hookups, less distance.  All of a sudden, you have spikes in a variety of diseases, including covid.
> 
> What happened?  The herd immunity threshold changed.  People who used to be keeping 6 feet are now adopting a different behavior.  Put one way, people got closer to each other and disease spread more easily.   Put another way, people changed their behavior and that altered the herd immunity threshold.


It didn't change.  The baseline you have to assume is normal human behavior.  If NPIs are holding down infection rates and infection spike, they aren't at herd immunity under either definition (a) no more COVID or (b) low levels of endemic infection without spikes.  Again, YOU may be happy living with restrictions in perpetuity.  Most of the world is not because it's NOT part of the human condition.  Otherwise what you are suggesting is NPIs forever, which BTW some of us from time to time have accused you of wanting and this is another piece of evidence that shows that yeah maybe you'd be totally fine with that.  Finally, you are being antiscience....not even Fauci is using your definition....even espola's definition was better and more realistic.


----------



## Grace T.

Waste RNA numbers.  In all probability, a winter wave is afoot.  Generally a leading indicator by about 1-2 weeks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461005416662450176


----------



## Grace T.

One of the costs of the lockdowns.....









						Alarm grows as mortuaries fill with thousands of extra non-Covid deaths
					

Nearly 10,000 more people than usual have died in the past four months from non-Covid reasons, as experts called for an urgent government inquiry into whether the deaths were preventable.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Grace T.

Another cost of the lockdowns.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460989505910059016


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It didn't change.  The baseline you have to assume is normal human behavior.  If NPIs are holding down infection rates and infection spike, they aren't at herd immunity under either definition (a) no more COVID or (b) low levels of endemic infection without spikes.  Again, YOU may be happy living with restrictions in perpetuity.  Most of the world is not because it's NOT part of the human condition.  Otherwise what you are suggesting is NPIs forever, which BTW some of us from time to time have accused you of wanting and this is another piece of evidence that shows that yeah maybe you'd be totally fine with that.  Finally, you are being antiscience....not even Fauci is using your definition....even espola's definition was better and more realistic.


”Can we acheive herd immunity with a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior patterns” is a perfectly reasonable question. 

It is just a different question from “can we achieve herd immunity”.

You claim to be asking the second, then insist on pivoting to the first.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> ”Can we acheive herd immunity with a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior patterns” is a perfectly reasonable question.
> 
> It is just a different question from “can we achieve herd immunity”.
> 
> You claim to be asking the second, then insist on pivoting to the first.


No you are just making selective definitional changes to support your world view.  No one considers a world with ongoing NPIs being necessary to maintain the status quo "herd immunity".  You are going your magic wand waiving seeking to distinguish stuff to protect your world view, in this case when even Fauci has moved on.

And no one is asking about the 60% rate.  The relevant subjects for vaxxed immunity were Singapore, Iceland, Ireland.  For natural immunity, the one to watch is India.  England now has 95%+ seroprevalence in adults....still not at herd immunity.


----------



## Desert Hound

Well for Gibraltar dad had an excuse as to why cases were surging. It was the tourists fault.

Well what about VT? Highest vaxxed state in the nation.

Certainly looks like breakthrough cases are not rare.


_Vermont is one of the most vaccinated states in the country and has served as a model for its COVID-19 response throughout the pandemic. But now, the state is experiencing its worst COVID-19 surge yet, with several factors -- including its own success -- to blame, officials said.

In Vermont, nearly 72% of residents are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 -- more than any other state, according to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data. *At the same time, it has the 12th-highest rate of new COVID-19 cases over the last week,* state data released Tuesday shows.

Vermont has seen a "significant" increase in COVID-19 cases in the past week, Mike Pieciak, commissioner of the state's Department of Financial Regulation, said during a press briefing Tuesday.

*The seven-day average for COVID-19 cases rose 42% as of Tuesday, according to state data.*_

Here they talk about the fact that a lack of natural immunity could be an issue.

_Regarding the recent case surge, Vermont may also be a "victim of our success," Levine said Tuesday, *pointing to a lack of natural COVID-19 immunity among unvaccinated residents "because we kept the virus at such low levels throughout the entire pandemic."* _









						Vermont has the highest vaccination rate in the country. So why are cases surging?
					

Why COVID-19 cases are surging in Vermont, which is one of the most vaccinated states in the country.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No you are just making selective definitional changes to support your world view.  No one considers a world with ongoing NPIs being necessary to maintain the status quo "herd immunity".  You are going your magic wand waiving seeking to distinguish stuff to protect your world view, in this case when even Fauci has moved on.
> 
> And no one is asking about the 60% rate.  The relevant subjects for vaxxed immunity were Singapore, Iceland, Ireland.  For natural immunity, the one to watch is India.  England now has 95%+ seroprevalence in adults....still not at herd immunity.


Singapore isn’t doing permanent NPI.  They were just smart about when to relax NPI.  First NPI, then vax, then relax NPI.  

The “relax NPI” step causes a case spike.  A very small case spike that causes few deaths because it is a very heavily vaccinated country.  So what?

Seems to be working out just fine for them.  They will end up with a low case rate, low NPI endemic steady state that is dependent on some amount of boosters and new vaccinations.   Sounds like success to me.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Well for Gibraltar dad had an excuse as to why cases were surging. It was the tourists fault.
> 
> Well what about VT? Highest vaxxed state in the nation.
> 
> Certainly looks like breakthrough cases are not rare.
> 
> 
> _Vermont is one of the most vaccinated states in the country and has served as a model for its COVID-19 response throughout the pandemic. But now, the state is experiencing its worst COVID-19 surge yet, with several factors -- including its own success -- to blame, officials said.
> 
> In Vermont, nearly 72% of residents are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 -- more than any other state, according to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data. *At the same time, it has the 12th-highest rate of new COVID-19 cases over the last week,* state data released Tuesday shows.
> 
> Vermont has seen a "significant" increase in COVID-19 cases in the past week, Mike Pieciak, commissioner of the state's Department of Financial Regulation, said during a press briefing Tuesday.
> 
> *The seven-day average for COVID-19 cases rose 42% as of Tuesday, according to state data.*_
> 
> Here they talk about the fact that a lack of natural immunity could be an issue.
> 
> _Regarding the recent case surge, Vermont may also be a "victim of our success," Levine said Tuesday, *pointing to a lack of natural COVID-19 immunity among unvaccinated residents "because we kept the virus at such low levels throughout the entire pandemic."* _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vermont has the highest vaccination rate in the country. So why are cases surging?
> 
> 
> Why COVID-19 cases are surging in Vermont, which is one of the most vaccinated states in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


Area under the curve.  Not moment in time.   How does the total number of cases in VT rank?

So far, they have the second lowest total case rate in the nation.  And they have the lowest covid death rate in the nation.

I’d say VT is doing ok so far.  

Did a miss a memo where each of us tries to find the worst possible example to prove our point?  First Grace brings up Singapore to argue against mask and vaccines mandates.  Now you’re trying to point to Vermont as an example of failed covid policy.

Dang.  Time for me to get with the program and launch the Chernobyl Initiative for Nuclear Power.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Singapore isn’t doing permanent NPI.  They were just smart about when to relax NPI.  First NPI, then vax, then relax NPI.
> 
> The “relax NPI” step causes a case spike.  A very small case spike that causes few deaths because it is a very heavily vaccinated country.  So what?
> 
> Seems to be working out just fine for them.  They will end up with a low case rate, low NPI endemic steady state that is dependent on some amount of boosters and new vaccinations.   Sounds like success to me.


1. You are changing your tune again.  But it's a welcome change.  At least you concede that despite the high vaxx rate and masks they still had a spike (so are not currently at herd immunity)
2. We don't know if they will end up with lower cases, or if the case rate just will fall due to seasonality and then rise again once they have new triggers such as seasonality.
3. You are the math guy and you asked the $1,000,000 way back when.  The key question for whether a herd immunity threshold can be reached is if the breakthrough cases are high and if that number increases with time.  All indications (both by studies and anecdotal) is that they are and they do.
4. which (now that we are on the same page finally) takes us to boosters.  The big question with boosters is if it's 1 and done.   Because if you have to keep going back at the well, then you are in flu shot territory.  Only about 50% of Americans get the flu shot and the flu shot doesn't cause nearly the realm of reactions that the COVID shot does.  In a countries like the US or Europe, if you try to force boosters plural, let alone a single booster, you are going to have significant civil unrest which will dwarf the little stuff we've seen so far.  In Singapore, which is forcing the unvaxxed to pay for their own health care and which is effectively a police state, sure.
5. That leaves us with 3 things to manage this in the west: the drugs (in which case COVID really does become like managing the flu), natural immunity (not enough data on this yet but the stuff Dr. John presented is bad and all eyes will be on India if they get another delta wave), or a hypothetical better vaccine.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Area under the curve.  Not moment in time.   How does the total number of cases in VT rank?
> 
> So far, they have the second lowest total case rate in the nation.  And they have the lowest covid death rate in the nation.
> 
> I’d say VT is doing ok so far.
> 
> Did a miss a memo where each of us tries to find the worst possible example to prove our point?  First Grace brings up Singapore to argue against mask and vaccines mandates.  Now you’re trying to point to Vermont as an example of failed covid policy.
> 
> Dang.  Time for me to get with the program and launch the Chernobyl Initiative for Nuclear Power.


You are again missing the point.

The question isn't whether Vermont is doing better.  Of course a highly vaccinated place will do better in death, hospitalizations and even cases.  Vaccines good.

The question is whether a highly vaccinated place can have a spike (and therefore is not at herd immunity) despite the vaccines, and how prevalent are breakthrough infections (which you yourself identified as the $1,000,000 question).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are again missing the point.
> 
> The question isn't whether Vermont is doing better.  Of course a highly vaccinated place will do better in death, hospitalizations and even cases.  Vaccines good.
> 
> The question is whether a highly vaccinated place can have a spike (and therefore is not at herd immunity) despite the vaccines, and how prevalent are breakthrough infections (which you yourself identified as the $1,000,000 question).


I didn’t miss your point.   I just don’t agree that your point is at all important.

Yes, small case spikes are possible when circumstances change.  Singapore had one.  Vermont is having one.  China will have one when they relax.  Exactly as predicted by the models.  

So what?  You start at herd immunity, environment or behavior change, transmission rises, cases go up for a bit, natural immunity rises, cases fall, and you reach herd immunity again. 

If you are the head epidemiologist for Singapore, this cycle deserves your full attention.  For anyone else, why would you pick this to care about?  We have a lot of work to do before we think about the case spike from ending NPI in a fully vaccinated population.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> ”Can we acheive herd immunity with a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior patterns” is a perfectly reasonable question.


I respectfully disagree. This is not reasonable to me.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I respectfully disagree. This is not reasonable to me.


 We are at a 60% vax rate.  People would like to return to 2019 behavior.   Most are.

Herd immunity under a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior is where we are headed.  Might as well ask what that looks like.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I didn’t miss your point.   I just don’t agree that your point is at all important.
> 
> Yes, small case spikes are possible when circumstances change.  Singapore had one.  Vermont is having one.  China will have one when they relax.  Exactly as predicted by the models.
> 
> So what?  You start at herd immunity, environment or behavior change, transmission rises, cases go up for a bit, natural immunity rises, cases fall, and you reach herd immunity again.
> 
> If you are the head epidemiologist for Singapore, this cycle deserves your full attention.  For anyone else, why would you pick this to care about?  We have a lot of work to do before we think about the case spike from ending NPI in a fully vaccinated population.


That's why you are avoiding the question.  Because if there is no herd immunity (at least under the 2 definitions which are under general discussion as opposed to your fantasy), there is no point to mandating vaccines....it's an elusive target you are never going to reach because as time passes you continue to lose ground and you can't NPI forever.

As to the NPIs we have come to the limit of what people will accept: which is basically theater like going into a restaurant with a mask on with everyone else sitting there without one, kids going to school in masks on the weekdays but then forgetting about them on the weekends, and only extreme blues are using it in their personal gatherings when they go to friends house (see the Atlantic story, for example).   The Ds are already set up to take enormous political damage because of it, and the economy is already creaking under the strain.  The red states have moved on, Biden's vaccine mandate is set to be blocked by the courts, and you'd have significant issues if even Los Angeles tries to shutter the restaurants again.  Police state Singapore can do it....the west is at the limit.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We are at a 60% vax rate.  People would like to return to 2019 behavior.   Most are.
> 
> Herd immunity under a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior is where we are headed.  Might as well ask what that looks like.


There's not a whole lot more you can do about it in a western nation, given what we've done to this particular points (lots a woulda coulda shoulda though).  If boosters are required, even more unlikely you ever get there.  If repeated boosters are required, forget it...it's over.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> We are at a 60% vax rate.  People would like to return to 2019 behavior.   Most are.
> 
> Herd immunity under a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior is where we are headed.  Might as well ask what that looks like.


Ok, definitely my misunderstanding of what you were implying.

From my perspective, any definition of herd immunity should be based on what was normal behavior before the pandemic.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I didn’t miss your point. I just don’t agree that your point is at all important.
> 
> Yes, small case spikes are possible when circumstances change.


You did miss the point. 

VT has the highest cases they ever have had since the beginning of this. 

The point is the vaxx is not stopping the spread of the virus. If it did, in a state with the highest vax rate, they would not or should not be experiencing their highest spike in cases.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, definitely my misunderstanding of what you were implying.
> 
> From my perspective, any definition of herd immunity should be based on what was normal behavior before the pandemic.


I’d certainly prefer we all choose a 95% vax rate, upgraded ventilation, and cloth masks for flu season.  A lot fewer deaths that way.

But that’s not the path we picked.  We chose a 60% vax rate, existing ventilation, and no masks.  So we will get annual case and death spikes every winter, whatever is needed to create enough natural immunity to balance things out.


----------



## crush

Dr. Fraud wants to make things very simple for everyone.  If you got the jabs, you need to get the booster after 6 months of the 2nd jab.  He thinks booster for a while and is not sure when normal will be back.  Simple is simple.  He said nothing about the religious folks and Native Americans who strongly hold to ancient believe that nothing impure can enter one's blood and no one can do experiment on another human without authorization and consent by the one being experimented on.  Two way agreement has to enforced.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You did miss the point.
> 
> VT has the highest cases they ever have had since the beginning of this.
> 
> The point is the vaxx is not stopping the spread of the virus. If it did, in a state with the highest vax rate, they would not or should not be experiencing their highest spike in cases.


“the highest case rate they have ever had.“.   That is a meaningless phrase.  It sounds like it makes a point, but it doesn’t.

My 3 year old nephew is the tallest he has ever been.  That doesn’t make him tall.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I’d certainly prefer we all choose a 95% vax rate, upgraded ventilation, and cloth masks for flu season.  A lot fewer deaths that way.
> 
> But that’s not the path we picked.  We chose a 60% vax rate, existing ventilation, and no masks.  So we will get annual case and death spikes every winter, whatever is needed to create enough natural immunity to balance things out.


Doesn't your preferred scenario depend on the assumption that the flu wouldn't mutate to be more highly infectious - as COVID has? By wearing masks all the time, don't we create an environment that promotes the growth of highly aerosolized viruses? By reducing the number of illnesses each year, don't we also put ourselves in a position where our natural immunity is lower as a population and more susceptible to a catastrophically large outbreak when a virus finds a way? I just wonder how much of this we can actually control - beyond the moment. It reminds me a little of the Trolley dilemma @Grace T. brought up earlier. My current thoughts are that I am now a bigger proponent of antivirals and not as big a proponent of vaccines as I was at the beginning of the pandemic. I am not anti-Vax - at least by my definition of anti-Vax - but my position has definitely moved.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> “the highest case rate they have ever had.“.   That is a meaningless phrase.  It sounds like it makes a point, but it doesn’t.
> 
> My 3 year old nephew is the tallest he has ever been.  That doesn’t make him tall.


The parents who track each milestone on the wall, not to mention probably most proud 3 years olds, would disagree the new milestone is meaningless.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Doesn't your preferred scenario depend on the assumption that the flu wouldn't mutate to be more highly infectious - as COVID has? By wearing masks all the time, don't we create an environment that promotes the growth of highly aerosolized viruses? By reducing the number of illnesses each year, don't we also put ourselves in a position where our natural immunity is lower as a population and more susceptible to a catastrophically large outbreak when a virus finds a way? I just wonder how much of this we can actually control - beyond the moment. It reminds me a little of the Trolley dilemma @Grace T. brought up earlier. My current thoughts are that I am now a bigger proponent of antivirals and not as big a proponent of vaccines as I was at the beginning of the pandemic. I am not anti-Vax - at least by my definition of anti-Vax - but my position has definitely moved.


mine too.  I was a few months ago open to the idea of adult state and local mandates (opposed to kids and federal).  I don't really see the point now.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> ”Can we acheive herd immunity with a 60% vax rate and 2019 behavior patterns” is a perfectly reasonable question.
> 
> It is just a different question from “can we achieve herd immunity”.
> 
> You claim to be asking the second, then insist on pivoting to the first.


That herd is at about 8 billion today.  Please continue.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, I get my Covid booster tomorrow and flu shot on Saturday. For some strange reason, it took over 15 minutes to set up the appointments last week. They allow getting both at the same time if you can find a spot that does both and has openings. It didn't help that CA hasn't approved mixing vaccines yet so I had to get a Pfizer booster. I was actually hoping to get a Moderna booster so @watfly couldn't keep holding it over my head that his vaccine is better than mine. Not really but it would have been sooner and at the same time if they would have allowed me to take Moderna.


Ok, so I am not getting my COVID booster today. I got an email stating it had been 6 months and boosters were available. Evidently, further down the page, there is a list that identifies those "eligible". I didn't fall into any of the categories. I found this out when they called and asked, "Why are you getting a COVID booster?" So, I'll get my flu shot. Maybe I'll ask for some horse paste to go - just in case.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Doesn't your preferred scenario depend on the assumption that the flu wouldn't mutate to be more highly infectious - as COVID has? By wearing masks all the time, don't we create an environment that promotes the growth of highly aerosolized viruses? By reducing the number of illnesses each year, don't we also put ourselves in a position where our natural immunity is lower as a population and more susceptible to a catastrophically large outbreak when a virus finds a way? I just wonder how much of this we can actually control - beyond the moment. It reminds me a little of the Trolley dilemma @Grace T. brought up earlier. My current thoughts are that I am now a bigger proponent of antivirals and not as big a proponent of vaccines as I was at the beginning of the pandemic. I am not anti-Vax - at least by my definition of anti-Vax - but my position has definitely moved.


My Buddy Steve got the JJ jab in May 2021 and COVID last month:  They treated him with the following:


Covid drugs & other




Solu-medrol injection and
Rocephin 2, 1 Graham injections. 1 time.


Ivermectin tablets 10/Daily. 7 days
Monoclonal injection 1 time
NAC 1/daily. 14 days
Hydroxychloroquine 2/daily. 7 day.
Prednisone 2/daily. 7 days.
Azithromycin 1/daily. 7 days
Bayer aspirin 1/Daily 10 days (not prescription)
Zinc. 1/daily 10 days (not prescription)
Vitamin C (not prescription)
Vitamin D3 (not prescription)
Nebulizer, Ipratropium Bromide & Albuterol Sulfate 3-4/daily 7 days.
Oxygen tank for whenever I want.


Quite the arsenal post-vax.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, so I am not getting my COVID booster today. I got an email stating it had been 6 months and boosters were available. Evidently, further down the page, there is a list that identifies those "eligible". I didn't fall into any of the categories. I found this out when they called and asked, "Why are you getting a COVID booster?" So, I'll get my flu shot. Maybe I'll ask for some horse paste to go - just in case.


See list above


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> My 3 year old nephew is the tallest he has ever been.  That doesn’t make him tall.


Just like your case hyping.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Doesn't your preferred scenario depend on the assumption that the flu wouldn't mutate to be more highly infectious - as COVID has? By wearing masks all the time, don't we create an environment that promotes the growth of highly aerosolized viruses? By reducing the number of illnesses each year, don't we also put ourselves in a position where our natural immunity is lower as a population and more susceptible to a catastrophically large outbreak when a virus finds a way? I just wonder how much of this we can actually control - beyond the moment. It reminds me a little of the Trolley dilemma @Grace T. brought up earlier. My current thoughts are that I am now a bigger proponent of antivirals and not as big a proponent of vaccines as I was at the beginning of the pandemic. I am not anti-Vax - at least by my definition of anti-Vax - but my position has definitely moved.


I think it’s the reverse.   A higher transmissibility variant (flu or covid) will always have a competitive advantage.  The question is how often that happens.

 Mutation rates depend on the amount of virus in circulation.  Choosing the low vax path means we are choosing to have more virus in circulation, and this a higher mutation rate.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think it’s the reverse.   A higher transmissibility variant (flu or covid) will always have a competitive advantage.  The question is how often that happens.
> 
> Mutation rates depend on the amount of virus in circulation.  Choosing the low vax path means we are choosing to have more virus in circulation, and this a higher mutation rate.


You always overlook the world on this.  Only a little more than 50% of the world has gotten a single jab.  Of those, some of the vaccines are problematic even before declining immunity.  Some nations (including some from where the USA and Poland are currently having immigration issues) have very low rates and some in Africa don't even approach 1%.  Some, like in Russia with their own decent Sputnik vaccine, unless the government suddenly decides to crack down, are going to have high rates of refusal.  Unless you have some global solution that addresses China, Russia, India and Africa, you are always going to have a lot of room for mutations, at least for another year and a half or so, and that's before we even get to boosters.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I think it’s the reverse.   A higher transmissibility variant (flu or covid) will always have a competitive advantage.  The question is how often that happens.
> 
> Mutation rates depend on the amount of virus in circulation.  Choosing the low vax path means we are choosing to have more virus in circulation, and this a higher mutation rate.


I'm glad I got the viral update that evolved with the virus unlike the MRNa shots.  The COVID anti bodies are still on patrol according to my last blood test.  A good diet and exercise has always been a plus.  Nobody is choosing a low vax path.  The tyrannical and socialist mandates that you approve of are unconstitutional.  They take away our right to due process and our rights to freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I think it’s the reverse.   A higher transmissibility variant (flu or covid) will always have a competitive advantage.  The question is how often that happens.
> 
> Mutation rates depend on the amount of virus in circulation.  Choosing the low vax path means we are choosing to have more virus in circulation, and this a higher mutation rate.


Doesn’t the amount of virus in circulation also depend on the current level of natural immunity as well as immunity due to vaccines? Vaccines will always be “behind” a mutating virus. I can see vaccines not only flattening the curve but also lengthening it. As the curve lengthens, immunity from vaccines wanes. Are we confident the area under the curve is less for the lengthened curve? I don’t believe the answer is straightforward in a mutating virus.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Mutation rates depend on the amount of virus in circulation. Choosing the low vax path means we are choosing to have more virus in circulation, and this a higher mutation rate.


Billions of people will never get vaxxed. Poor and corrupt countries pretty much guarantee this happening. 

There will always be a vast pool of people where the virus can do its thing so to speak.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Maybe I'll ask for some horse paste to go - just in case.


Just remember to adjust dosage for body weight - you'll be fine.


----------



## Desert Hound

Good news.









						OSHA has ‘suspended activities’ related to Biden’s vaccine mandate
					

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has suspended work on President Biden’s vaccine mandate after a federal appeals court hit pause on rules that would force companies with 100 or more employees to require COVID-19 shots or regular testing.




					www.washingtontimes.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> I can see vaccines not only flattening the curve but also lengthening it.


This.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Doesn’t the amount of virus in circulation also depend on the current level of natural immunity as well as immunity due to vaccines? Vaccines will always be “behind” a mutating virus. I can see vaccines not only flattening the curve but also lengthening it. As the curve lengthens, immunity from vaccines wanes. Are we confident the area under the curve is less for the lengthened curve? I don’t believe the answer is straightforward in a mutating virus.


The area under the case curve decreases if you have a vaccine.

Normally, you keep getting new cases until your recovered population equals the herd immunity threshold.

For this, people who are effectively protected by the vaccine count towards your recovered population.

So, if you need 250 million recovered patients, and 150 million are immune by vaccine, then only 100 million end up getting sick.

Area under the curve fell from 250 to 100. 

Harder to explain when you toss in new variants, partially effective natural immunity, and partially effective vaccines, but the core idea is the same.  The number of infections is reduced by (number of vaccinated people) x (vaccine efficacy).


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, so I am not getting my COVID booster today. I got an email stating it had been 6 months and boosters were available. Evidently, further down the page, there is a list that identifies those "eligible". I didn't fall into any of the categories. I found this out when they called and asked, "Why are you getting a COVID booster?" So, I'll get my flu shot. Maybe I'll ask for some horse paste to go - just in case.


Good move bro


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The area under the case curve decreases if you have a vaccine.
> 
> Normally, you keep getting new cases until your recovered population equals the herd immunity threshold.
> 
> For this, people who are effectively protected by the vaccine count towards your recovered population.
> 
> So, if you need 250 million recovered patients, and 150 million are immune by vaccine, then only 100 million end up getting sick.
> 
> Area under the curve fell from 250 to 100.
> 
> Harder to explain when you toss in new variants, partially effective natural immunity, and partially effective vaccines, but the core idea is the same.  The number of infections is reduced by (number of vaccinated people) x (vaccine efficacy).


An imperfect model (why do you always neglect time...what is it with you and that variable....it's come up time and time again....see that, cute no?).  It's pretty clear, in addition to the complications caused by new variants, that both vaccine and natural immunity (from the data Dr. John presents) declines with time.  The issue with natural immunity is that not everyone gets the same robust response, but from the Denmark study, it appears to be on every tiered one to one comparison, better and longer lasting than vaccine immunity, but it is declining as well.  We don't know how rapidly it is declining, but it seems to decline less severely than vaccine immunity.  The vaccine immunity based on the Israeli study and the Oct. 25 2021 Swedish cohort study is declining radically against symptomatic infection and even against severe illness.









						Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccination Against Risk of Symptomatic Infection, Hospitalization, and Death Up to 9 Months: A Swedish Total-Population Cohort Study
					

Background: Whether vaccine effectiveness against Coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) lasts longer than 6 months is unclear.<br><br>Methods: A retrospective coh



					papers.ssrn.com


----------



## Grace T.

I thought this one was cute.  Singapore is now a "high risk" country.









						Denmark to impose COVID-19 isolation for travellers from Singapore
					

Denmark will impose self-isolation requirements on travellers from Singapore, its embassy in the city-state said on Thursday, following a surge in COVID-19 infections.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> I’d certainly prefer we all choose a 95% vax rate, upgraded ventilation, and cloth masks for flu season.  A lot fewer deaths that way.
> 
> But that’s not the path we picked.  We chose a 60% vax rate, existing ventilation, and no masks.  So we will get annual case and death spikes every winter, whatever is needed to create enough natural immunity to balance things out.


Remind me again who the ‘we’ are that picked this path?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I’d certainly prefer we all choose a 95% vax rate, upgraded ventilation, and cloth masks for flu season.  A lot fewer deaths that way.
> 
> But that’s not the path we picked.  We chose a 60% vax rate, existing ventilation, and no masks.  So we will get annual case and death spikes every winter, whatever is needed to create enough natural immunity to balance things out.


Crazy talk   We haven't chosen a 60% vax rate.  It's where we are today.  That number will go up.  Ventilation?  Like in schools?  Big box stores?  Your own house?  Bars?  Who's paying? Cloth masks forever during flu season?  Alot fewer covid or flu deaths?


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Crazy talk   We haven't chosen a 60% vax rate.  It's where we are today.  That number will go up.  Ventilation?  Like in schools?  Big box stores?  Your own house?  Bars?  Who's paying? Cloth masks forever during flu season?  Alot fewer covid or flu deaths?


Look at daily new vaccinations.  Not a lot of new people.  The number is going up, but not by much.

Who is paying for upgrading ventilation?  Almost no one.  Businesses are paying higher health care premiums instead.  Tanstaafl.

Cloth masks would reduce both covid and flu deaths.  You'd also fit in perfectly during Tai Chi practice.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Cloth masks would reduce both covid and flu deaths


There is that slippery slope. Now you want to include flu season for masks.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> There is that slippery slope. Now you want to include flu season for masks.


Flu season is covid season.  They are the same months.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Flu season is covid season.  They are the same months.


Really? You see flu spikes in mid summer months?


----------



## NorCalDad




----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


>


Whack!!!


----------



## crush

Attention K-Mark Shoppers:  The Goal Posts are being moved again.  What started as a two week "stop the curve" movement in early 2020, is now about "ruining peoples lives."  In order to be considered "Fully Vaccinated" ((obedient)), you must get the booster.  So it looks like the Jabs wane off after 6 months.  This is funny to me but not really if you know what I mean.  My satire is waning away as well and just fyi!!!


----------



## crush

Brain Thought of the Day.......


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Brain Thought of the Day.......
> 
> View attachment 12103


I have to wonder how much effect the vaccine mandates have on non-Asian POC support of democrats. Democrats appear to be losing support nationwide and a relatively small shift from this usually highly supportive group could be a big deal in swinging elections. Remember how fast mandates dropped in CA when the recall went through?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have to wonder how much effect the vaccine mandates have on non-Asian POC support of democrats. Democrats appear to be losing support nationwide and a relatively small shift from this usually highly supportive group could be a big deal in swinging elections. Remember how fast mandates dropped in CA when the recall went through?


I can say that my left leaning pals are now awake and see wtf is truly going on.  Awake is one thing, being mentally and physically ready for the next phase is the other part to this interesting world we ALL find ourselves in.  I believe "good" will squeeze out the victory, I just dont know when.  It took us a long time to get here and it shall take some time to undo whatever the "good" needs to do to rid ourselves of the "bad" apple among us.  This is now getting hard for all of us.  Their two classes getting hammered and lied to left and right; the Unjabbed and the Jabbed are now the same.  Both low class groups are now not "fully vaccinated" and we all together now.  We still have to wear the mask as well.  If you want to be upper class and hang out with the elitist, you have to get boosters and probably every 6 months until your dead, whichever comes first.  I love you guy and guys and Grace T and as a friend I just want you to be careful.  How much is too much?  I have no idea how to answer that Q.  I 100% will sit this experiment out.  Please, all of you be careful.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Really? You see flu spikes in mid summer months?


Mid summer, for most states, was not a seasonal spike.

Mid summer was a spike caused by a behavioral change.  

Might be different for desert states.  You guys go inside when it is hot.  Most of the country goes inside when it is cold and dark.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Mid summer, for most states, was not a seasonal spike.
> 
> Mid summer was a spike caused by a behavioral change.
> 
> Might be different for desert states.  You guys go inside when it is hot.  Most of the country goes inside when it is cold and dark.


I have some great medication bro that can help you.  I'm 100% serious.   PM me when you've had enough of this BS and want out of the Matrix. Tough pill for folks like you to swallow because of pride and ego.  I gave a tip to a dear pal of mine and he took the advice and now he can see.  He has lost 23 pounds in the last 60 days.  So proud of him.  His wife filed for the Big D Six months ago and that woke his ass up.  Great lady and he was blowing it with his drinking and other things.  Today, his wife took the Big D off the table and their staying together and not just for the kids sake.  The wife is in love with her man again because her man is showing up the way a real man should.


----------



## crush

*Biden says police officers, first responders should be fired for refusing jab*
*Biden also scoffed at those who oppose vaccine mandates on the basis of 'freedom'*


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> I have some great medication bro that can help you.  I'm 100% serious.   PM me when you've had enough of this BS and want out of the Matrix. Tough pill for folks like you to swallow because of pride and ego.  I gave a tip to a dear pal of mine and he took the advice and now he can see.  He has lost 23 pounds in the last 60 days.  So proud of him.  His wife filed for the Big D Six months ago and that woke his ass up.  Great lady and he was blowing it with his drinking and other things.  Today, his wife took the Big D off the table and their staying together and not just for the kids sake.  The wife is in love with her man again because her man is showing up the way a real man should.


Glad it’s working out for your friend.  Last two years have been rough on a lot of marriages.

Just got my booster.  The concept doesn’t bug me as much as it bugs you.  Between measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis, and all the flu shots, most people have had dozens of vaccines and boosters.  So, my arm hurts, but no one I know has had to suffer through one of those diseases.  To me, it’s a good trade.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Glad it’s working out for your friend.  Last two years have been rough on a lot of marriages.
> 
> Just got my booster.  The concept doesn’t bug me as much as it bugs you.  Between measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis, and all the flu shots, most people have had dozens of vaccines and boosters.  So, my arm hurts, but no one I know has had to suffer through one of those diseases.  To me, it’s a good trade.


How many Polio boosters have you had?  How many Hepatitis boosters?  And so on and so and son.  Most people like you have become one big shot. Some of us were raised differently FYI....


----------



## Desert Hound

Time to move on.


_This is a question of politics — political culture, the authority of normal life versus the respected authorities in charge of public health. *Public-health authorities don’t know how to stop giving you extra-restrictive advice*. And they can’t learn how to stop giving it if we don’t learn how to stop asking for it. *Or until we start ignoring what they say, and start punishing politicians who translate their guidance into nuisances.*

We can’t eat enough medium-well steaks to get the CDC to stop recommending that we not eat medium-rare, let alone steak tartare. If you ask epidemiologists whether human conversation is safe, *their minds call up computer animations of people projectile-vomiting red and blue blocks of “droplets” on each other.* If you asked public-health authorities for permission to be born and live a life, there’s no way they could just, you know, approve of that in an unqualified way. *You just have to remember that you’ll never be in less danger to yourself or others until dead.


They’re waiting for us — the people.* The people began locking down and shutting in and buying masks last February, when public-health officials were telling you that masks were racist and that you should attend Chinese New Year parades to show you weren’t afraid. The people began traveling out more — based on the Google traffic data — before the lockdowns were eased. *When does it end? When we end it.









						Ignoring Them Is the Only Way Out | National Review
					

When does COVID abnormalcy end? When we end it.




					www.nationalreview.com
				



*_


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Time to move on.
> 
> 
> _This is a question of politics — political culture, the authority of normal life versus the respected authorities in charge of public health. *Public-health authorities don’t know how to stop giving you extra-restrictive advice*. And they can’t learn how to stop giving it if we don’t learn how to stop asking for it. *Or until we start ignoring what they say, and start punishing politicians who translate their guidance into nuisances.*
> 
> We can’t eat enough medium-well steaks to get the CDC to stop recommending that we not eat medium-rare, let alone steak tartare. If you ask epidemiologists whether human conversation is safe, *their minds call up computer animations of people projectile-vomiting red and blue blocks of “droplets” on each other.* If you asked public-health authorities for permission to be born and live a life, there’s no way they could just, you know, approve of that in an unqualified way. *You just have to remember that you’ll never be in less danger to yourself or others until dead.
> 
> 
> They’re waiting for us — the people.* The people began locking down and shutting in and buying masks last February, when public-health officials were telling you that masks were racist and that you should attend Chinese New Year parades to show you weren’t afraid. The people began traveling out more — based on the Google traffic data — before the lockdowns were eased. *When does it end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignoring Them Is the Only Way Out | National Review
> 
> 
> When does COVID abnormalcy end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


I was thinking something similar, "Nothing to see here.  Time to move on."


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Glad it’s working out for your friend.  Last two years have been rough on a lot of marriages.
> 
> Just got my booster.  The concept doesn’t bug me as much as it bugs you.  Between measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis, and all the flu shots, most people have had dozens of vaccines and boosters.  So, my arm hurts, but no one I know has had to suffer through one of those diseases.  To me, it’s a good trade.


...your "betters" are mocking you...yet you submissively bend over and ask for more, a modern day Tory.

... for the record, I threw up in my mouth when seeing Pelosi and swingers bar in the same sentence.









						Nancy Pelosi Spotted… Violates mask mandate at DC Swingers Bar…
					

!function(r,u,m,b,l,e){r._Rumble=b,r[b]||(r[b]=function(){(r[b]._=r[b]._||[]).push(arguments);if(r[b]._.length==1){l=u.createElement(m),e=u.getElementsByTagName(m)[0],l.async=1,l.src=” docume…




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


>


Fonzie?  Few people born after 1980 get that reference.  I asked kiddo this morning if he knew who Fonzie was....his response was "isn't he that bear on the Muppets?  Didn't Disney dump the Muppets because they hate them?"  What's funny is neither one of them realizes they are now the two old farts talking about "Mattlock".

In any case, I recall a very special Happy Days episode where Fonzie didn't want to get his flu shot because he thought it would rob him of his cool, and then he wound up catching the flu anyways and meeting some vampire dude that tried to rob him of his cool, and then got the flu shot anyways like a nice little drone despite now being naturally immune.  So kinda undermines the entire Fonzie argument....the entire history of the show is Fonzie gets tamed, settles down and becomes a Cunningham.


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Glad it’s working out for your friend.  Last two years have been rough on a lot of marriages.
> 
> Just got my booster.  The concept doesn’t bug me as much as it bugs you.  Between measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis, and all the flu shots, most people have had dozens of vaccines and boosters.  So, my arm hurts, but no one I know has had to suffer through one of those diseases.  To me, it’s a good trade.


You are talking apples to oranges between the diseases you mentione and the current disease that is center stage.

The theory is the same but the covid vaccine is certainly lacking.  People are and will continue to die from covid infections.  The cases will differ  based on vaxxed/unvaxxed/natural immunity but you get the picture.  It's hard to have this exact conversation if you introduce a disease that has a robust vaccine specifically designed for durable immunity.   Beyond that, covid, polio, MMR, hep are exactly the same...right.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Time to move on.
> 
> 
> _This is a question of politics — political culture, the authority of normal life versus the respected authorities in charge of public health. *Public-health authorities don’t know how to stop giving you extra-restrictive advice*. And they can’t learn how to stop giving it if we don’t learn how to stop asking for it. *Or until we start ignoring what they say, and start punishing politicians who translate their guidance into nuisances.*
> 
> We can’t eat enough medium-well steaks to get the CDC to stop recommending that we not eat medium-rare, let alone steak tartare. If you ask epidemiologists whether human conversation is safe, *their minds call up computer animations of people projectile-vomiting red and blue blocks of “droplets” on each other.* If you asked public-health authorities for permission to be born and live a life, there’s no way they could just, you know, approve of that in an unqualified way. *You just have to remember that you’ll never be in less danger to yourself or others until dead.
> 
> 
> They’re waiting for us — the people.* The people began locking down and shutting in and buying masks last February, when public-health officials were telling you that masks were racist and that you should attend Chinese New Year parades to show you weren’t afraid. The people began traveling out more — based on the Google traffic data — before the lockdowns were eased. *When does it end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignoring Them Is the Only Way Out | National Review
> 
> 
> When does COVID abnormalcy end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


bit of an old article but that's sort of why we are where we are.  The public health authorities have thrown up their hands on certain things they can no longer control such as people gathering in private, no weddings funerals or birthdays, the 6 foot rule, masks outside, or keeping businesses perpetually shut.  People in all but the bluest states have moved on.  But in blue states, they can still exert pressure in some places like masking in businesses by threatening business licenses, airplanes by throwing you off and putting you on the don't fly list, schools.  People aren't going to just defy them because that means losing your business or causing a problem for innocent workers put in the middle of this, not getting where you want to go, or having your kid kicked out of school.  So as a result you have policies that increasingly don't make any sense.  A few examples: adults in New York pretty much are packing in the bars but kids in school have to remain 6 ft apart and masked all days, you have to wear a mask into a crowded restaurant but when you get to the table you take it off, and in the Dakotas we ate indoors and shopped including at a crowded WallsDrugs but you go into a half empty gift shop on federal land they make you put on a mask (which sometimes we weren't even carrying with us).  No more progress on this is going to be made in the blue states until 2022 if the Ds take a shelacking in the elections, and if anything the temptation in some crazy jurisdictions like LA, SF, and NY if a winter wave really surges will be to shut down things like school (which we are seeing a bit of in the blue Midwest).


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The available clinical evidence of facemask efficacy is of low quality and the best available clinical evidence has mostly failed to show efficacy, with fourteen of sixteen identified randomized controlled trials comparing face masks to no mask controls failing to find statistically significant benefit in the intent‐to‐treat populations. Of sixteen quantitative meta‐analyses, eight were equivocal or critical as to whether evidence supports a public recommendation of masks, and the remaining eight supported a public mask intervention on limited evidence primarily on the basis of the precautionary principle. 

Evidence for Community Cloth Face Masking to Limit the Spread of SARS‐CoV‑2: A Critical Review


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Faith outpaced evidence when it comes to masks.-- Vinay Prasad


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> You are talking apples to oranges between the diseases you mentione and the current disease that is center stage.
> 
> The theory is the same but the covid vaccine is certainly lacking.  People are and will continue to die from covid infections.  The cases will differ  based on vaxxed/unvaxxed/natural immunity but you get the picture.  It's hard to have this exact conversation if you introduce a disease that has a robust vaccine specifically designed for durable immunity.   Beyond that, covid, polio, MMR, hep are exactly the same...right.


Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.  

For scale, my kids got the chicken pox vaccine.  That wasn’t because I had some deep seated fear of chicken pox.  I’ve had shots, and I’ve had chicken pox.  Chicken pox is worse.  Decision made.  

We don’t know yet what it will take to develop long term immunity for covid.  Three shots?  Five shots, like DTaP?  Annual, like flu?  Perhaps a good virologist can read the literature and tell us.   I don’t think anyone knows yet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Time to move on.
> 
> 
> _This is a question of politics — political culture, the authority of normal life versus the respected authorities in charge of public health. *Public-health authorities don’t know how to stop giving you extra-restrictive advice*. And they can’t learn how to stop giving it if we don’t learn how to stop asking for it. *Or until we start ignoring what they say, and start punishing politicians who translate their guidance into nuisances.*
> 
> We can’t eat enough medium-well steaks to get the CDC to stop recommending that we not eat medium-rare, let alone steak tartare. If you ask epidemiologists whether human conversation is safe, *their minds call up computer animations of people projectile-vomiting red and blue blocks of “droplets” on each other.* If you asked public-health authorities for permission to be born and live a life, there’s no way they could just, you know, approve of that in an unqualified way. *You just have to remember that you’ll never be in less danger to yourself or others until dead.
> 
> 
> They’re waiting for us — the people.* The people began locking down and shutting in and buying masks last February, when public-health officials were telling you that masks were racist and that you should attend Chinese New Year parades to show you weren’t afraid. The people began traveling out more — based on the Google traffic data — before the lockdowns were eased. *When does it end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignoring Them Is the Only Way Out | National Review
> 
> 
> When does COVID abnormalcy end? When we end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


It's already happening or happened in some places. In San Diego this weekend, no masks were required in the vast majority of stores and restaurants I saw. In Florida, they have had pretty much no restrictions in over a year. It was interesting when I stopped for gas in LA county. Supposedly, masks are required but both times I saw numerous people without masks and no one telling them to put one on. The last thing that will go will be the mandates that can be enforced without confronting someone. Organizations will be threatened with losing their license and/or being fined - from a distance. Politicians/bureaucrats aren't stupid enough to actually get in someone's face to enforce their rules. They'll leave that to restaurant hosts/hostesses and flight attendants. What a bunch of f'ing cowards.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.
> 
> For scale, my kids got the chicken pox vaccine.  That wasn’t because I had some deep seated fear of chicken pox.  I’ve had shots, and I’ve had chicken pox.  Chicken pox is worse.  Decision made.
> 
> We don’t know yet what it will take to develop long term immunity for covid.  Three shots?  Five shots, like DTaP?  Annual, like flu?  Perhaps a good virologist can read the literature and tell us.   I don’t think anyone knows yet.


Have you seen 750k death certificates to verify actual  COD?  With COVID as opposed to from COVID, big difference.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.
> 
> For scale, my kids got the chicken pox vaccine.  That wasn’t because I had some deep seated fear of chicken pox.  I’ve had shots, and I’ve had chicken pox.  Chicken pox is worse.  Decision made.
> 
> We don’t know yet what it will take to develop long term immunity for covid.  Three shots?  Five shots, like DTaP?  Annual, like flu?  Perhaps a good virologist can read the literature and tell us.   I don’t think anyone knows yet.


...many things we don't know yet...we don't have long term studies, and won't for a "long" time. Yet, we do know it doesn't provide immunity, causing CDC to change the age-old definition of vaccine / vaccination in September.

...your choice to allow the government to experiment with your kids...many of us want the same choice not to...yet you want my choice mandated until some virologist figures it out.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> The available clinical evidence of facemask efficacy is of low quality and the best available clinical evidence has mostly failed to show efficacy, with fourteen of sixteen identified randomized controlled trials comparing face masks to no mask controls failing to find statistically significant benefit in the intent‐to‐treat populations. Of sixteen quantitative meta‐analyses, eight were equivocal or critical as to whether evidence supports a public recommendation of masks, and the remaining eight supported a public mask intervention on limited evidence primarily on the basis of the precautionary principle.
> 
> Evidence for Community Cloth Face Masking to Limit the Spread of SARS‐CoV‑2: A Critical Review


dad is going to tell you they work at 80%. 

It is like arguing religion with a true believer.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's already happening or happened in some places. In San Diego this weekend, no masks were required in the vast majority of stores and restaurants I saw. In Florida, they have had pretty much no restrictions in over a year. It was interesting when I stopped for gas in LA county. Supposedly, masks are required but both times I saw numerous people without masks and no one telling them to put one on. The last thing that will go will be the mandates that can be enforced without confronting someone. Organizations will be threatened with losing their license and/or being fined - from a distance. Politicians/bureaucrats aren't stupid enough to actually get in someone's face to enforce their rules. They'll leave that to restaurant hosts/hostesses and flight attendants. What a bunch of f'ing cowards.


Cowards?  Is there some non-cowardly enforcement mechanism you recommend?  Would you prefer they responded with a police visit, court summons, and $500 fine?   Your complaint is that the rule is enforced at all, not that you dislike the mechanism.

You can argue that the rule should not exist.  There is a system for that.  Get out there, support your candidate, and win an election.

And, if your side loses like Mr. Elder lost, understand that a majority of people disagree with you.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.


No freaking way.  Bad math on the part of the mathematician again.

Firstly, you are again committing the worldwide fallacy again.  in 2018, post-vaccine, measles killed 140,000 people worldwide.  Second, in epidemic conditions such as the 1920s measles in the United States was killing about 7-10K people per year in the US.  Third, of the people that were dying of the measles were heavily slanted towards children while with COVID the people who are dying are largely older meaning in terms of years of life at stake measles was much more threatening.  Fourth, COVID is a novel disease and one of the problems (which BTW is the primary reason which even with waning immunity against both illness and serious illness the vaccines are still working with death) is that when introduced the immune systems don't know how to deal with it....once the immune system recognizes it it does better....so when you had it introduced to indigenous populations that had not experienced measles (such as native americans or Hawaiians) the death rate approached 30%.  Fifth, the death rate for the respiratory form of the disease was also 30% in the 20s, irrespective of whether indigenous or not.  Sixth, measles had the potential to leave very severe permanent damage (much more than long covid) including lung scaring, blindness and infertility.  Seventh, you constantly insist on using the COVID death rate number we know is somewhat inflated.  Eighth, unlike COVID vaccines so far, the measles was very good at giving long lasting immunity after the defined series of shots...and despite all that we still haven't been able to irradicate it (I was exposed during the Disneyland incident and had to get the emergency booster).

Not saying COVID isn't bad.  Not saying both diseases aren't bad.  But measles was much more of a societal threat...the chief difference is measles was endemic while COVID is not.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> dad is going to tell you they work at 80%.
> 
> It is like arguing religion with a true believer.


he might trot out this meta study the left leaning papers have been circulating to trumpet a 53% reduction by masks! (which BTW, would mean masks really are better than vaccines).  What they don't tell you it's just a meta study (which means garbage input from some garbage studies, including 3 Chinese propaganda studies which were widely panned, means garbage output) and even in the footnotes there's an acknowledgement that the best studies seem to indicate about a 10% reduction (which would be right in line with what I've been saying) and perhaps more if better masks were used.









						Mask-wearing linked to 53% cut in Covid incidence, global study finds
					

Researchers said results highlight the need to continue with face coverings, social distancing and handwashing alongside vaccine programmes




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Glad it’s working out for your friend.  Last two years have been rough on a lot of marriages.
> 
> Just got my booster.  The concept doesn’t bug me as much as it bugs you.  Between measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis, and all the flu shots, most people have had dozens of vaccines and boosters.  So, my arm hurts, but no one I know has had to suffer through one of those diseases.  To me, it’s a good trade.


Don’t forget a future shingles shot! What’s in that? Duuuuuh


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No freaking way.  Bad math on the part of the mathematician again.
> 
> Firstly, you are again committing the worldwide fallacy again. _* in 2018, post-vaccine, measles killed 140,000 people worldwide.  *_Second, in epidemic conditions such as the 1920s measles in the United States was killing about 7-10K people per year in the US.  Third, of the people that were dying of the measles were heavily slanted towards children while with COVID the people who are dying are largely older meaning in terms of years of life at stake measles was much more threatening.  Fourth, COVID is a novel disease and one of the problems (which BTW is the primary reason which even with waning immunity against both illness and serious illness the vaccines are still working with death) is that when introduced the immune systems don't know how to deal with it....once the immune system recognizes it it does better....so when you had it introduced to indigenous populations that had not experienced measles (such as native americans or Hawaiians) the death rate approached 30%.  Fifth, the death rate for the respiratory form of the disease was also 30% in the 20s, irrespective of whether indigenous or not.  Sixth, measles had the potential to leave very severe permanent damage (much more than long covid) including lung scaring, blindness and infertility.  Seventh, you constantly insist on using the COVID death rate number we know is somewhat inflated.  Eighth, unlike COVID vaccines so far, the measles was very good at giving long lasting immunity after the defined series of shots...and despite all that we still haven't been able to irradicate it (I was exposed during the Disneyland incident and had to get the emergency booster).
> 
> Not saying COVID isn't bad.  Not saying both diseases aren't bad.  But measles was much more of a societal threat...the chief difference is measles was endemic while COVID is not.


If you‘re going to accuse me of being bad at math, at least get your facts straight.  

It is not “post vaccine” for the areas with a lot of measles deaths.  Those deaths occur in the 1/6 of the world which is not vaccinated.  

Now, can you make your point with the real facts?  in 2018, 140,000 people in unvaccinated areas died of measles.  The total incompletely population is about 1.1 billion.  Never vaccinated population is about 1.3 billion.

Hard to make that stand up to the 15 million people the Economist estimates have died from covid.  You’re wrong by about 2 orders of magnitude.

You can add in several years of measles, because endemic.  But then you have to add in the next several years of covid, for the same reason.  You’re still wrong by a factor of ten.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you‘re going to accuse me of being bad at math, at least get your facts straight.
> 
> It is not “post vaccine” for the areas with a lot of measles deaths.  Those deaths occur in the 1/6 of the world which is not vaccinated.
> 
> Now, can you make your point with the real facts?  in 2018, 140,000 people in unvaccinated areas died of measles.  The total incompletely population is about 1.1 billion.  Never vaccinated population is about 1.3 billion.
> 
> Hard to make that stand up to the 15 million people the Economist estimates have died from covid.  You’re wrong by about 2 orders of magnitude.
> 
> You can add in several years of measles, because endemic.  But then you have to add in the next several years of covid, for the same reason.  You’re still wrong by a factor of ten.


"Get your facts straight" says the man who ignored the numerous objections raised in my email.

The calculation you propose would require a calculation from the inception of measles (presumably the Antonine plague) through its run from the inception of COVID through the end of its runs (both of which might very well run infinitely).  To be super accurate, you have to adjust on the basis of proportions of the population.  Your a math guy....have fun with that...oh that's right you can't because of the lack of records from that time period.

But what do we know: well, we know it killed at inception huge swaths (assuming it was the Antonine plague) of the population in Rome, and vast swaths of the indigenous population of the Americas.  The outbreak in Cuba, for example, killed 2/3 of the indigenous population in the epidemic of 1580 (IIRC) and wiped out 39% of the Inca population (after that population had been devastated by small pox)....so you know what I take the implication a little personally!  Measles after small pox was the leading killer of indigenous sheltered populations, including the vast devastation in the Hawaiian and Pacific islands.

If your point is that vaccinated COVID is more of a problem than vaccinated measles...well sure I'll give you that....but that's not the point you are presumably trying to make because it doesn't support your argument or worldview (it in fact makes the opposite point).  But the laughable (and offensive) part is that you don't realize you are comparing a novel epidemic disease to one that is endemic.


----------



## Desert Hound

Science....


_A meta-analysis of global research dating back two years, published in the The Lancet earlier this month, *found natural immunity from COVID recovery provides more than 10 months of "strong" protection against reinfection. *

The UCLA and University of Southern California researchers said it could be longer, given that their review was "limited by the length of current reported follow-up data." *Robust protection afforded by vaccine-induced immunity is estimated to last around 6 months, the threshold at which the CDC and FDA are expected to recommend boosters for all age groups.*_

--

And yet our gov studiously avoids this topic. Many want a vaxx passport. A substantial portion of our population has stronger natural immunity. But the quest to continue security theater continues. 

-- 
_
Stanford Medical School's Jay Bhattacharya, coauthor of the Great Barrington Declaration, emphasized The Lancet previously published a competing statement that claimed there is "no evidence for lasting protection" from natural immunity.

The medical journal "finally acknowledges reality," he tweeted, asking if CDC Director Rochelle Walensky and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration would follow suit._


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> he might trot out this meta study the left leaning papers have been circulating to trumpet a 53% reduction by masks! (which BTW, would mean masks really are better than vaccines).  What they don't tell you it's just a meta study (which means garbage input from some garbage studies, including 3 Chinese propaganda studies which were widely panned, means garbage output) and even in the footnotes there's an acknowledgement that the best studies seem to indicate about a 10% reduction (which would be right in line with what I've been saying) and perhaps more if better masks were used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mask-wearing linked to 53% cut in Covid incidence, global study finds
> 
> 
> Researchers said results highlight the need to continue with face coverings, social distancing and handwashing alongside vaccine programmes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


My point is not really about 10% versus 20% versus 53%.

My point is that even a 10% change to transmissibility is far, far larger than you understand.  You think a 10% change to transmissibility means a 10% change to total cases.  That isn’t what it means at all.

For the US, a 10% change to transmissibility is the difference between a disease which infects 30 million people and a disease which goes nowhere.  That’s the same as the difference between the 2018/19 flu and the 2020/21 flu.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> My point is not really about 10% versus 20% versus 53%.
> 
> My point is that even a 10% change to transmissibility is far, far larger than you understand.  You think a 10% change to transmissibility means a 10% change to total cases.  That isn’t what it means at all.
> 
> For the US, a 10% change to transmissibility is the difference between a disease which infects 30 million people and a disease which goes nowhere.  That’s the same as the difference between the 2018/19 flu and the 2020/21 flu.


This is a good point and the experts themselves have been confusing it (it is in fact a criticism of the study which is circulating that the authors of it do not understand the distinction either, nor the guardian, which is where the laughable figure of 53% came from....if the reduction were 53% to the R, the disease would be gone by now).  Thanks for panning the study!


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.
> 
> For scale, my kids got the chicken pox vaccine.  That wasn’t because I had some deep seated fear of chicken pox.  I’ve had shots, and I’ve had chicken pox.  Chicken pox is worse.  Decision made.
> 
> We don’t know yet what it will take to develop long term immunity for covid.  Three shots?  Five shots, like DTaP?  Annual, like flu?  Perhaps a good virologist can read the literature and tell us.   I don’t think anyone knows yet.


Nobody knows.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of nobody knows...we still don't know if there are long term bad effects of the vax.

Is the Swedish study correct? We don't know yet. But that kind of is the point. There are lots of things we don't know about the vax and its long term effects. 

It is precisely because we are learning more things as time goes by, *that we should not mandate a vax to the public.* Especially to those groups who have no risk of the virus. 


_Meanwhile, the U.K. government's own figures suggest some COVID vaccines reduce the protection from previous infection. 

In a vaccine surveillance report last month, the Health Security Agency said recent data showed "post-infection antibodies," distinct from those created by vaccination, "appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination."

A peer-reviewed study in the journal Viruses, published by the Swiss open access publisher MDPI, raises questions about potential side effects from current mRNA vaccines because they use "full-length" spike proteins.

Researchers at Swedish universities said they found the spike protein in the virus itself *"significantly inhibits DNA damage repair," *which is crucial for "adaptive immunity." *Hence, it may be "safer and more efficacious" for COVID vaccine development to focus on using "antigenic epitopes of the spike" rather than the full-length spike.*_


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Don’t forget a future shingles shot! What’s in that? Duuuuuh


...for starters, long term studies and a calculated deliberate approval process.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of nobody knows...we still don't know if there are long term bad effects of the vax.


We also don't know if there are long-term bad effects of the infection (other than death of course).


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Don’t forget a future shingles shot! What’s in that? Duuuuuh


That's on my to do list, before I get a booster.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> We also don't know if there are long-term bad effects of the infection (other than death of course).


What a silly argument all of this is.  Mandates aren't going to work in this country.  We can scream at patients all day long about their health, they will do what they want to do. Most will do what their provider tells them, some won't.  It's where we are with vaccines.  Rates have certainly leveled.  Dragging your 5-11 yr old to get vaxxed will certainly drive up #s.   Kinda crazy if you stop to think about. Plenty of sciency people are horrified by the idea of mandating a vaccine for a segment of the population that doesn't even need it.  I hope we get a South Park episode out of this.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting things afoot.  Belgium despite a 75% vaxxed rate for it's population, a mask mandate, a remote work mandate and having been hit among the hardest in Europe in previous waves, while doing better than its neighbors, is still doing this.....









						Belgium COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Belgium Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




By contrast Sweden with a 75% vaxx rate, a vaxx mandate, and a heavy outbreak, but very loose early restrictions is doing this.  Incidentally it's the only one of its neighbors which is not undergoing a spike right now, with Denmark, Norway, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands all spiking, including been either near or at records for their case counts.  Swedes looks like they might have been right from the beginning....the lockdowns just pushed the outbreaks later in time if this holds up.









						Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Spain, which had 4 prior waves, is also starting a wave now, but not as severe as some of its neighbors. Spain also has 80% of its population vaxxed









						Spain COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Spain Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Sweden and Spain seem to indicate the way out of this (at least if this holds up) is a high vaxx rate + natural immunity (which means steps to avoid infection such as NPIs would be contraindicated and only prolong the suffering)

There is virtually no doubt the United States is heading into another wave with the open question how bad








						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Canada's wave has plateaued similar to England's









						Canada COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Canada Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Grace T.

Good thread on boosters....the big question is how long they last (early anecdotes suggest good results)....problem is if folks like Kicking and Gummi are reluctant to get boosters, this is the last bite at the apple....if it turns out repeated boosters are need you will have completely shred public trust....the definition of fully vaxxed will be changed to include the boosted.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461374201474998275








						Why I've Decided to Not Get the Booster
					

It's over and I'm not legitimizing these bullshit policies




					gummibear737.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> What a silly argument all of this is.  Mandates aren't going to work in this country.  We can scream at patients all day long about their health, they will do what they want to do. Most will do what their provider tells them, some won't.  It's where we are with vaccines.  Rates have certainly leveled.  Dragging your 5-11 yr old to get vaxxed will certainly drive up #s.   Kinda crazy if you stop to think about. Plenty of sciency people are horrified by the idea of mandating a vaccine for a segment of the population that doesn't even need it.  I hope we get a South Park episode out of this.


The new South Park fast forwards to when the kids are adults.  They are flashing back to how they grew up post pandemic.  It will be behind the Paramount Plus pay wall exclusively, at least at first, dropping Thanksgiving.


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> Not everything in that list is equal.  Measles killed about 400-500 people per year before the vaccine.   Covid has already killed 750,000.  By any measure, covid is a lot worse than measles.
> 
> For scale, my kids got the chicken pox vaccine.  That wasn’t because I had some deep seated fear of chicken pox.  I’ve had shots, and I’ve had chicken pox.  Chicken pox is worse.  Decision made.
> 
> We don’t know yet what it will take to develop long term immunity for covid.  Three shots?  Five shots, like DTaP?  Annual, like flu?  Perhaps a good virologist can read the literature and tell us.   I don’t think anyone knows yet.


Measles went away in most *developed* countries because of vaccinations, but not in every country. Its like polio went away in most *developed* countries because of vaccinations, but not in every country. That's not saying that measles or polio vanished everywhere. The articles points to a 95% benchmark to "eliminate" measles.

Measles cases hit 23-year high last year, killing 200,000 as vaccination stalls, WHO says | | UN News


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Mandates aren't going to work in this country.


What a silly argument that is.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What a silly argument that is.


Why?


----------



## crush

*Marines and sailors who refuse the COVID-19 shot will be discharged, will lose some GI Bill benefits-
Active-duty Marines must be fully vaccinated by Nov. 28, and reservists must be fully vaccinated by Dec. 28, the Navy has set a similar timeline. *


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> dad is going to tell you they work at 80%.
> 
> It is like arguing religion with a true believer.


Dad is the "low quality" the article speaks about.  He's eloquently clueless like Husker.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If you‘re going to accuse me of being bad at math, at least get your facts straight.
> 
> It is not “post vaccine” for the areas with a lot of measles deaths.  Those deaths occur in the 1/6 of the world which is not vaccinated.
> 
> Now, can you make your point with the real facts?  in 2018, 140,000 people in unvaccinated areas died of measles.  The total incompletely population is about 1.1 billion.  Never vaccinated population is about 1.3 billion.
> 
> Hard to make that stand up to the 15 million people the Economist estimates have died from covid.  You’re wrong by about 2 orders of magnitude.
> 
> You can add in several years of measles, because endemic.  But then you have to add in the next several years of covid, for the same reason.  You’re still wrong by a factor of ten.


No source.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> We also don't know if there are long-term bad effects of the infection (other than death of course).


Well, there is the world population approaching 8 billion during a deadly worldwide pandemic.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> What a silly argument that is.


Agree!  I remember how well mandates worked during the last pandemic.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> Why?


The last time we locked the world down in the name of Science it worked like a charm.  It's not like we don't have plenty of historical evidence to prove how well mandates work!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 12109


The Anti-free Market Revolving Door spins for all government agencies to protect the TBTF Banks.


----------



## Grace T.

That Fauci.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461694163297222666


----------



## crush

Basically Jorge say's we were entering into "Regular Boosters" for the rest of your life.  Hahahahaha and they all smile and act like this is the way it will be forever.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Basically Jorge say's we were entering into "Regular Boosters" for the rest of your life.  Hahahahaha and they all smile and act like this is the way it will be forever.


so far the 4th is limited to immunocompromised people.  If they do move to 4 for the general population it's over.  It's the flu shot and you'll have widespread noncompliance if they attempt to mandate it.  Otherwise reasonable people are already fed up with being told they have to have 2, 3 is a heavy lift, 4 forgetaboutit.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> so far the 4th is limited to immunocompromised people.  If they do move to 4 for the general population it's over.  It's the flu shot and you'll have widespread noncompliance if they attempt to mandate it.  Otherwise reasonable people are already fed up with being told they have to have 2, 3 is a heavy lift, 4 forgetaboutit.


What is the cause of your low opinion of the American people?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What is the cause of your low opinion of the American people?


Might explain that willingness to ignore insurrection and the anti-democracy attitude.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Might explain that willingness to ignore insurrection and the anti-democracy attitude.


My oh my, you do embrace it.
Grow up.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is the cause of your low opinion of the American people?


1. That they are having a hard time getting to people to take 2 let alone 4.
2. The flu shot rate, which is a lot less unpleasant than the COVID shot.
3. Anecdotal discussions, including folks on this forum, who were willing to get the 2 but harder to get to 3.  Just don't see getting them to 4 without major problems.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> so far the 4th is limited to immunocompromised people.  If they do move to 4 for the general population it's over.  It's the flu shot and you'll have widespread noncompliance if they attempt to mandate it.  Otherwise reasonable people are already fed up with being told they have to have 2, 3 is a heavy lift, 4 forgetaboutit.


I was a no at the start of all this.  I figured 3 jabs would be about all most on here would take for the team.  I mean that with kindness and love.  I have best friends on both sides.  My wife is Cherokee and nothing will or can enter her blood.  I am Scottish Highlander and nothing can enter my blood either.  I do not consent and never will consent.  It's my bloodline and my blood is precious to me and me alone and I will keep my blood pure.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> What is the cause of your low opinion of the American people?


That's what I was thinking.  Opinion of the American people is so low that their freedom of choice has been taken away with their jobs and benefits without due process and enforcement of mandates resulting in not being free of cruel and unusual punishment as our constitution provides.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Might explain that willingness to ignore insurrection and the anti-democracy attitude.


All while you deny folks their constitutional rights, Husker Jong-un


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> All while you deny folks their constitutional rights, Husker Jong-un


Husker Hitler


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 12112


Shocking!!


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Shocking!!


My pal is not doing good physically or mentally.  He got the two jabs as a badge of honor, to be team player and to be first in line because he was so scared of this thing when it first reared it's ugly name in 2020.  Pal has now been sick for 5 days straight Bruddah IZ.  He sounds like shit and he told me this is worse then when he first got it back in 2020.  He can't stand and is all dizzy.  He think it's the flu because he missed his flu shot.  He told me he's going to get the booster in December and then flu shot for next flu season.  Basically shots for life.  I told him to stop drinking booze and meat and see if that helps him not get sick all the time.  He said he will die before he gives up meat.  Booze, maybe but not at this time because he's so stressed out trying to pay off his mortgage.  He's sick at least three times a year and has gained so much weight.  Dude was a stud basketball player before he got on life's hamster wheel of stress and more stress for men.  Today is International Men's Day.  Amazing how these so called men act and behave.  Total losers!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Cowards?  Is there some non-cowardly enforcement mechanism you recommend?  Would you prefer they responded with a police visit, court summons, and $500 fine?   Your complaint is that the rule is enforced at all, not that you dislike the mechanism.
> 
> You can argue that the rule should not exist.  There is a system for that.  Get out there, support your candidate, and win an election.
> 
> And, if your side loses like Mr. Elder lost, understand that a majority of people disagree with you.


Yes, I would like to see the government fully fund their mandates. Don’t put enforcement of an extremely volatile and divisive new mandate on our essential workers. It’s fucking cowardly. I ask myself if I would want my daughter to be a hostess at a restaurant where she is expected to enforce a mask mandate. Hell no. Fortunately we are not in that position but many people are.

Enforcing the mandates on children and keeping them out of school and public places when their known risk was small is also a cowards move.

I’ll note this is the 2nd time in a few days you have put out assumptions on me that are not true yet we’re a whiney little bitch when when I turned it around on you the first time. Toughen up, or quit throwing stones.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> That Fauci.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461694163297222666


Wait, did I just read that Fauci “inspired a love interest in one of her erotic novels”? I’m crossing off Sally Quinn novels from any future reading.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> so far the 4th is limited to immunocompromised people.  If they do move to 4 for the general population it's over.  It's the flu shot and you'll have widespread noncompliance if they attempt to mandate it.  Otherwise reasonable people are already fed up with being told they have to have 2, 3 is a heavy lift, 4 forgetaboutit.


So, when I went to get my flu shot on Wednesday after they told me I didn’t qualify for the Covid booster, they changed their mind and said I could get the booster. So, I got both shots. And, no @crush, no unpleasant side effects. My hearing and sight are still perfect out of all 3 ears and all 5 eyes.

I can probably stand to lose another 5 pounds and add another bike workout each week. I’ll continue  those efforts going. I think it’s wise to hedge my bets. I’m really just hoping the booster eliminates the added risk of all the pork I plan to eat around the holidays.


----------



## Fargo2413

Haven't visited this forum for a while now.  Seeing the usual back and forth about vaccine, no vaccine, mask, no mask.  Personally, I got my Pfizer shots and a booster.  I work in healthcare and I've seen way too much not to want protection against COVID.  Good news is the antiviral in pill form that Pfizer is working to get FDA approval for.  Results were so good that the clinical trial was ended early.  I think antivirals are our best hope to get this virus under control.   Those who don't want to be vaccinated (until they get really sick and then it's too late) will have a weapon to fight with that's much easier to administer than monoclonal antibodies.  What I'm REALLY hoping for is that Pfizer's antiviral works prophylactically.   That could be key.  Exposed but not yet sick?  Fine, take this antiviral and COVID won't be able to take hold.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. That they are having a hard time getting to people to take 2 let alone 4.
> 2. The flu shot rate, which is a lot less unpleasant than the COVID shot.
> 3. Anecdotal discussions, including folks on this forum, who were willing to get the 2 but harder to get to 3.  Just don't see getting them to 4 without major problems.


1.  The majority of people are already fully vaccinated, as much as 72% in some states.  
2.  All of my covid vaccinations gave me nothing other than a sore arm for a few days.  The flu shot put me in bad for 4 days.
3.  Anecdotal bullshit.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> 1.  The majority of people are already fully vaccinated, as much as 72% in some states.
> 2.  All of my covid vaccinations gave me nothing other than a sore arm for a few days.  The flu shot put me in bad for 4 days.
> 3.  Anecdotal bullshit.


Last time I got a flu shot was the sickest I had been in at least 10 years and I don’t usually even get sick when everyone else in the house is.


----------



## crush

You Ought To Be "Vaccinated" by Evil Drug Pushers
					

Donate And Support My Work: https://earthnewspaper.com/donate Dozens Of Articles And Videos Published Daily: https://EarthNewspaper.com 24/7 News: https://earthnewspaper.com/24-7-news-november-2021 24/7 News Archive: https://earthnewspaper.com/24…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> so far the 4th is limited to immunocompromised people.  If they do move to 4 for the general population it's over.  It's the flu shot and you'll have widespread noncompliance if they attempt to mandate it.  Otherwise reasonable people are already fed up with being told they have to have 2, 3 is a heavy lift, 4 forgetaboutit.


Magic number is 4?   I took five dtap shots.  So did most people.  About half of us got the flu shot each year.  That adds up to way more than 4 shots.

You can scream “MAN THE BARRICADES!!!!!”.  Up to you.  

Most of us know that the original schedule was optimized for speed.  Is 4 weeks really better than 12?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But we had thousands of people dying each day last winter.  Waiting another 8 weeks for data was not appealing.  

One side effect of saving those lives is that you and I might have gotten one more booster than was necessary…. if we knew the optimal schedule, which we did not.

I’m ok with that.  You sound aggrieved.  Have fun at the barricades.

You’re suggesting people take a 0.2% chance of death to avoid a sore arm and win some point on an internet forum.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Magic number is 4?   I took five dtap shots.  So did most people.  About half of us got the flu shot each year.  That adds up to way more than 4 shots.
> 
> You can scream “MAN THE BARRICADES!!!!!”.  Up to you.
> 
> Most of us know that the original schedule was optimized for speed.  Is 4 weeks really better than 12?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But we had thousands of people dying each day last winter.  Waiting another 8 weeks for data was not appealing.
> 
> One side effect of saving those lives is that you and I might have gotten one more booster than was necessary…. if we knew the optimal schedule, which we did not.
> 
> I’m ok with that.  You sound aggrieved.  Have fun at the barricades.
> 
> You’re suggesting people take a 0.2% chance of death to avoid a sore arm and win some point on an internet forum.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Magic number is 4?   I took five dtap shots.  So did most people.  About half of us got the flu shot each year.  That adds up to way more than 4 shots.
> 
> You can scream “MAN THE BARRICADES!!!!!”.  Up to you.
> 
> Most of us know that the original schedule was optimized for speed.  Is 4 weeks really better than 12?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But we had thousands of people dying each day last winter.  Waiting another 8 weeks for data was not appealing.
> 
> One side effect of saving those lives is that you and I might have gotten one more booster than was necessary…. if we knew the optimal schedule, which we did not.
> 
> I’m ok with that.  You sound aggrieved.  Have fun at the barricades.
> 
> You’re suggesting people take a 0.2% chance of death to avoid a sore arm and win some point on an internet forum.


Why do you always assume that because you preach that’s what others are doing?

im just telling you the reality. You are having trouble getting people to take their first dose. What makes you think you can force people to take doses ever 6-8 months? You can’t even get them to do that with the flu shot? Your mandates with 2 shots are being challenged. What fantasy world are you living in where you think you can tell them you have to keep getting shots repeatedly? But you know that…which is why you lash out when you don’t want to hear it.

and worse as usual you bend the truth by declaring it as just a sore arm.  You know as well as I the shot is unusually unpleasant.For most it’s not just a sore arm but an arm that hurts. For others it’s more (I spent the day vomiting with the first one and know 3 folks who had nasty side effects in the booster). Then there’s the risk of the more severe side effects especially for the young  But again you know that but hate anything that conflicts with your propaganda

at least you admitted what the medical authorities are doing. They are basically guessing. But unfortunately they haven’t been clear about that with the public (their own arrogance prevents them from saying they don’t fully know what they are doing). So instead being wrong time and time again they undermine their own trust

you may not like it but that’s the road we are on. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ear and live in your fantasy land or you can accept the reality.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Why do you always assume that because you preach that’s what others are doing?
> 
> im just telling you the reality. You are having trouble getting people to take their first dose. What makes you think you can force people to take doses ever 6-8 months? You can’t even get them to do that with the flu shot? Your mandates with 2 shots are being challenged. What fantasy world are you living in where you think you can tell them you have to keep getting shots repeatedly? But you know that…which is why you lash out when you don’t want to hear it.
> 
> and worse as usual you bend the truth by declaring it as just a sore arm.  You know as well as I the shot is unusually unpleasant.For most it’s not just a sore arm but an arm that hurts. For others it’s more (I spent the day vomiting with the first one and know 3 folks who had nasty side effects in the booster). Then there’s the risk of the more severe side effects especially for the young  But again you know that but hate anything that conflicts with your propaganda
> 
> at least you admitted what the medical authorities are doing. They are basically guessing. But unfortunately they haven’t been clear about that with the public (their own arrogance prevents them from saying they don’t fully know what they are doing). So instead being wrong time and time again they undermine their own trust
> 
> you may not like it but that’s the road we are on. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ear and live in your fantasy land or you can accept the reality.


Excellent response.  I wrote something but deleted it because I got triggered by the fake math teacher.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Fargo2413 said:


> Haven't visited this forum for a while now.  Seeing the usual back and forth about vaccine, no vaccine, mask, no mask.  Personally, I got my Pfizer shots and a booster.  I work in healthcare and I've seen way too much not to want protection against COVID.  Good news is the antiviral in pill form that Pfizer is working to get FDA approval for.  Results were so good that the clinical trial was ended early.  I think antivirals are our best hope to get this virus under control.   Those who don't want to be vaccinated (until they get really sick and then it's too late) will have a weapon to fight with that's much easier to administer than monoclonal antibodies.  What I'm REALLY hoping for is that Pfizer's antiviral works prophylactically.   That could be key.  Exposed but not yet sick?  Fine, take this antiviral and COVID won't be able to take hold.


Yes, this is good news - and much needed given the obvious limitations of the vaccine and the irrational fear of many.


----------



## crush

Fargo2413 said:


> *Those who don't want to be vaccinated (until they get really sick and then it's too late)*


Welcome back to forum health pro.  I'm going to hold unto this Quote of yours to see WHO if your BS rings true.  What about talking about one's health and not eating shitty food and drinking booze all the time?  Thanks for being on the front lines.  How do you feel about losing some great frontline workers because they wouldn;t obey mandates to get jabbed or lose job? What % of your pals have been fired or had to quit?  Also, are you ok that Native Americans get fired for not taking jab?  How about a Native American Teenager who dreamed of playing college soccer and was offered a ride by a big time college only to be told she had to get jab or no deal?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, this is good news - and much needed given the obvious limitations of the vaccine and the irrational fear of many.


That's a good point.  Why are so many people afraid of a technology that has existed for centuries?  And a medicine that has demonstrated effectivity in the 90%+ range, with few serious side effects?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> That's a good point.  Why are so many people afraid of a technology that has existed for centuries?  And a medicine that has demonstrated effectivity in the 90%+ range, with few serious side effects?


Ahh, so cute how you guys all find common ground.  The long term side effects will not be known until the long term is over, which usually takes long years for the long term to show up.  Big Pharma now does not need to show true side effects for 55 years.  2076 baby and all will know wtf was in these jabs.  I'm shocked so many just roll over and roll up sleeve.  Dad says only his arm hurts and he will continue rolling up sleeve.  However, if crush says no and instead uses health as #1 fighter of the flu, then he can't work or participate in all of lives riches and pleasures.  I'm not shocked at all by how easy it is to get people to obey because their all in with the past life.  The old is going away and the new is coming.  I like my position and look forward to abundance.  I told a teenager who was super sad the other day to stand for the truth and karma will be on your side.  Let's see who will be humble out of all of us to admit a mistake, cheating and lying to get  ahead of others.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That's a good point.  Why are so many people afraid of a technology that has existed for centuries?  And a medicine that has demonstrated effectivity in the 90%+ range, with few serious side effects?


The beauty of all this is that good health trumps everything you can do. That is overwhelmingly in our control. You might not be aware of how many people are not in good health due to poor diet and lack of exercise as I remember you stating you don't hang out with unhealthy people. Maybe it wasn't you and it was Husker, or EOTL, or thelonggame that said that. It doesn't really matter as the views of all those aliases are so close to the same, it's as if it's the same person.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, I would like to see the government fully fund their mandates. Don’t put enforcement of an extremely volatile and divisive new mandate on our essential workers. It’s fucking cowardly. *I ask myself if I would want my daughter to be a hostess at a restaurant where she is expected to enforce a mask mandate. Hell no. Fortunately we are not in that position but many people are.*


Welcome to my dd world bro.  Not all kids get a full ride from parents, Docs and Colleges FYI.  My dd is a Hostess and does a great job at her job. Yes, she is asked to enforce these lame mandates.  Crazy, right?  Poor thing got blocked from entry of GDA because she chose to play public high school soccer.  Can you believe that?  I heard all the parents, "Oh gosh, how could anyone want to play high school soccer."  Well, I know a lot of Elitist parents kids who wanted to play HSS so they got waiver to do both.  Now fast forward, my poor dd has to work as a hostess and enforce the mandates all the while she is banned from getting her ride in college because she wont submit to two jabs and boosters.  This is becoming a huge hit for her, right?  What about my wife's friend who got fired for not taking the jab after 24 years at same job and it was a frontline job?  Marines get fired now as well?  Cops?  As long as you guys do as the Doc says, were all F up.  I will wait patiently for the dust to settle but once it does, their will be NO holding me back or my dd.  Just wait everyone.  I'm going on offense!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Ahh, so cute how you guys all find common ground.  The long term side effects will not be known until the long term is over, which usually takes long years for the long term to show up.  Big Pharma now does not need to show true side effects for 55 years.  2076 baby and all will know wtf was in these jabs.  I'm shocked so many just roll over and roll up sleeve.  Dad says only his arm hurts and he will continue rolling up sleeve.  However, if crush says no and instead uses health as #1 fighter of the flu, then he can't work or participate in all of lives riches and pleasures.  I'm not shocked at all by how easy it is to get people to obey because their all in with the past life.  The old is going away and the new is coming.  I like my position and look forward to abundance.  I told a teenager who was super sad the other day to stand for the truth and karma will be on your side.  Let's see who will be humble out of all of us to admit a mistake, cheating and lying to get  ahead of others.


Ha! My "irrational fear" was referring to the irrational fear of the virus.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ha! My "irrational fear" was referring to the irrational fear of the virus.


Everyone I know is all over the place regarding the fear virus.  Remember, I bring emotion and empathy to the soccer forum.  I'm telling you bro, that is one of the biggest problems we got right now.  The lack of empathy is staggering to me.  People generally only care about themselves and what their money can buy them.  I watched dads buy their way into the soccer arena and no one did anything.  What money could buy is going away.  Listen to what I have to say.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Welcome to my dd world bro.  Not all kids get a full ride from parents, Docs and Colleges FYI.  My dd is a Hostess and does a great job at her job. Yes, she is asked to enforce these lame mandates.  Crazy, right?  Poor thing got blocked from entry of GDA because she chose to play public high school soccer.  Can you believe that?  I heard all the parents, "Oh gosh, how could anyone want to play high school soccer."  Well, I know a lot of Elitist parents kids who wanted to play HSS so they got waiver to do both.  Now fast forward, my poor dd has to work as a hostess and enforce the mandates all the while she is banned from getting her ride in college because she wont submit to two jabs and boosters.  This is becoming a huge hit for her, right?  What about my wife's friend who got fired for not taking the jab after 24 years at same job and it was a frontline job?  Marines get fired now as well?  Cops?  As long as you guys do as the Doc says, were all F up.  I will wait patiently for the dust to settle but once it does, their will be NO holding me back or my dd.  Just wait everyone.  I'm going on offense!!!


Fear does not promote rational thought.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Everyone I know is all over the place regarding the fear virus.  Remember, I bring emotion and empathy to the soccer forum.  I'm telling you bro, that is one of the biggest problems we got right now.  The lack of empathy is staggering to me.  People generally only care about themselves and what their money can buy them.  I watched dads buy their way into the soccer arena and no one did anything.  What money could buy is going away.  Listen to what I have to say.


Fear + self-righteousness + power = Where we are now.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Fear does not promote rational thought.


But fear will destroy other people's lives who have no fear, if the one's with all the fear hold the power to ruin other people's lives.  Not being able to work means not able to eat soon.  It's like the one's with all the fear are jealous of folks who have zero fear.  I have no fear.  Zero fear.  Fear has to do with punishment.  Perfect love drives out fear.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Fear + self-righteousness + power = Where we are now.


I say it's more like, "where we were."  No way we go back to pay to play, brown nose kiss ass games, back stabbers, cheating, lying and doing whatever it takes to get the "W."  I see big change coming and that is why I'm so fired up.  Those who cheat and pay whatever it takes to win will now be the losers.  It's actually happening as I write this.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> That's a good point.  Why are so many people afraid of a technology that has existed for centuries?  And a medicine that has demonstrated effectivity in the 90%+ range, with few serious side effects?


Why are so many people afraid of the mandated immune systems given at birth? And the clean drinking water, and sanitation systems that provide a foundation for vaccines to even have a chance at success? Without all 3, vaccines efficacy is 0%.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

We've been lectured and scolded since March 2020. The spread of the virus is our fault, they say. If we'd just follow their "guidelines," we'd be a lot better off.

And yet:










You see what this is, surely. It's the COVID numbers in the United States, separated by a year.

Isn't it an amazing coincidence that all the places where people happened to be "behaving badly" on November 19, 2020 just happen to be the same places where they were "behaving badly" on November 19, 2021?

The coincidence is so uncanny that it's almost as if, I don't know,_ it's not a coincidence at all_, and factors like seasonality might instead account for where the virus becomes especially pronounced.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> at least you admitted what the medical authorities are doing. They are basically guessing. But unfortunately they haven’t been clear about that with the public (their own arrogance prevents them from saying they don’t fully know what they are doing). So instead being wrong time and time again they undermine their own trust


Guessing?  No, and that's not what I wrote.

There is a boatload of work to prove safety and efficacy.  They did all of that.

What they did not do was figure out whether some other schedule was slightly better.

That doesn't mean they were "guessing".   The goal was to get a vaccine out quickly.  So they chose a schedule that could be tested quickly.

As a result, we were able to vaccinate a lot of our 80+ population before the winter wave got to them.

Most people see that as a good thing.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> The beauty of all this is that good health trumps everything you can do. That is overwhelmingly in our control. You might not be aware of how many people are not in good health due to poor diet and lack of exercise as I remember you stating you don't hang out with unhealthy people. Maybe it wasn't you and it was Husker, or EOTL, or thelonggame that said that. It doesn't really matter as the views of all those aliases are so close to the same, it's as if it's the same person.


You all look (and sound) the same to me as well.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Fear does not promote rational thought.


Fear is a natural response to a perceived danger. Denial is not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Fear + self-righteousness + power = Where we are now.


Your inferiority complex is showing (“self-righteousness” lol! Boo hoo) and did you prefer, “it will be gone by Easter” (and all that jazz) and wish for more of the same of that?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fear is a natural response to a perceived danger. Denial is not.



who perceives this as a danger? , certainly not the people in power in this country


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Guessing?  No, and that's not what I wrote.
> 
> There is a boatload of work to prove safety and efficacy.  They did all of that.
> 
> What they did not do was figure out whether some other schedule was slightly better.
> 
> That doesn't mean they were "guessing".   The goal was to get a vaccine out quickly.  So they chose a schedule that could be tested quickly.
> 
> As a result, we were able to vaccinate a lot of our 80+ population before the winter wave got to them.
> 
> Most people see that as a good thing.


Potato patatoe 
Making an educate guess that can be rolled out quickly, guessing.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Potato patatoe
> Making an educate guess that can be rolled out quickly, guessing.


Yes, the kind of educated guess that involves tens of thousands of clinical trial participants followed by very difficult statistics work.

Maybe, someday, if you spend the next 15 years studying, you could become qualified to help make that kind of educated guess.

Probably not.  For that kind of educated guess, the education requirements are wicked hard.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, the kind of educated guess that involves tens of thousands of clinical trial participants followed by very difficult statistics work.
> 
> Maybe, someday, if you spend the next 15 years studying, you could become qualified to help make that kind of educated guess.
> 
> Probably not.  For that kind of educated guess, the education requirements are wicked hard.


All that time and education just to be wrong about everything. Got it

your bias for the meritocracy is showing again.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> All that time and education just to be wrong about everything. Got it
> 
> your bias for the meritocracy is showing again.


Who told you they were wrong about everything? Sounds like something a con man would tell people to gain their confidence. “I’m right they’re wrong believe me and only me”


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> All that time and education just to be wrong about everything. Got it
> 
> your bias for the meritocracy is showing again.


For medicine, I lean very heavily towards meritocracy.  Most people do.

Do you prefer to crowdsource your choice of ingested chemicals?


----------



## Desert Hound

Is this anything?









						Vaccinated English adults under 60 are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age
					

And have been for six months. This chart may seem unbelievable or impossible, but it's correct, based on weekly data from the British government.




					alexberenson.substack.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Is this anything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated English adults under 60 are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age
> 
> 
> And have been for six months. This chart may seem unbelievable or impossible, but it's correct, based on weekly data from the British government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alexberenson.substack.com


Well, assuming the most at risk are getting vaccinated at a higher rate, the two sets of people won't be randomly distributed. Also, the increase in the death rate among the vaccinated may indicate waning protection. The breakdown from 10-59 is vexing given the way the virus is much harder on older people.


----------



## crush

*The Wuhan Jab!*


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> For medicine, I lean very heavily towards meritocracy.  Most people do.
> 
> Do you prefer to crowdsource your choice of ingested chemicals?


They do about economics too yet economists missed both the 2008 bubble and the current “transitory” inflation trend

the fact is the meritocracy has not done well in its educated guesses. If we wanted to reform the system there’s more we can do than just crowdsource it.  Again your analysis neglects that there was an outsource group of don’t passers that mostly got it right just as there were in 2008

btw the two groups need each other. The 2008 don’t passers for the most part remarkably underperformed after 2008. The problem with the don’t passers is they see disaster even in the good times. The problem with the meritocratic passers is their own arrogance doesn’t let them believe they are wrong. Add to that a healthy dose of censorship, the personalities in public health (no medium well steaks for you!), a propensity to circle the wagons and being in bed with big pharma and it’s a prescription (haha) for disaster

btw I do think front lines docs have done much better than public health docs.  Example: after seeing early disaster results they shifted away from ventilators quickly and they led the push for public health to revise their thinking.  It was the same with the steroids as I personally can attest.


----------



## crush

*All roads lead to Rome and Rome is not having it!!*


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Is this anything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated English adults under 60 are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age
> 
> 
> And have been for six months. This chart may seem unbelievable or impossible, but it's correct, based on weekly data from the British government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alexberenson.substack.com


Probably not.  10-59 is a very wide age band.  

Vaccination status correlates with age.  Deaths from all causes correlates with age.

What you’re seeing is that people likely to die from early heart attacks are also likely to have been vaccinated.

If you took the same age band, you’d find that getting a shingles shot correlates with deaths from all causes, too.


----------



## dad4

interesting article in the Economist on ivermectin.  Paywall, unfortunately.

Turns out that ivm is an excellent drug for covid, if you happen to have worms.  The steroid treatment for covid makes the worms grow like crazy.  ivm keeps them in check.

It helps explain the vast difference in results for ivm studies.  Studies were more positive on ivm if they were done in countries with lots of parasites.

So, the low income countries using ivm were doing the right thing, for them.  And the wealthy countries avoiding ivm were doing the right thing, for them.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who told you they were wrong about everything? Sounds like something a con man would tell people to gain their confidence. “I’m right they’re wrong believe me and only me”


...simply reading their written word... as is always the case with you.


----------



## crush

*Why Cheaters Win*
*Cheating is inherently and uniquely empowering*


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Yes, the kind of educated guess that involves tens of thousands of clinical trial participants followed by very difficult statistics work.
> 
> Maybe, someday, if you spend the next 15 years studying, you could become qualified to help make that kind of educated guess.
> 
> Probably not.  For that kind of educated guess, the education requirements are wicked hard.


How many years of education, research and statistical analysis does it take to make a prediction like this?









						UC San Diego virus expert pleads with surfers to stay out of the ocean to avoid coronavirus
					

Kim Prather says coastal breezes likely carry coronavirus further than 6 feet




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com


----------



## crush

*Fauci vague on changing definition of 'fully vaccinated': 'We might modify'*

Dr. Anthony Fauci has cautioned that health officials may change the definition of "fully vaccinated" to include COVID-19 booster shots – if the data suggests it.  

"We’re going to take a look right now at what the durability is of the booster," Fauci told "State of the Union" host Dana Bash. "We’re going to follow people who get boosted."

"People should not be put off by the fact that as time goes by and we learn more and more about the protection that we might modify the guidelines," he explained. "That’s what we’ve been saying all along by follow the science, things change and you have to follow the data."


----------



## crush

*Novak Djokovic on Australian Open plans after COVID vax mandate: 'We’ll just have to wait and see'*
*Tennis Australia CEO said vaccinations will be required for players during the Australian Open*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Guessing?  No, and that's not what I wrote.
> 
> There is a boatload of work to prove safety and efficacy.  They did all of that.
> 
> What they did not do was figure out whether some other schedule was slightly better.
> 
> That doesn't mean they were "guessing".   The goal was to get a vaccine out quickly.  So they chose a schedule that could be tested quickly.
> 
> As a result, we were able to vaccinate a lot of our 80+ population before the winter wave got to them.
> 
> Most people see that as a good thing.


Most 80 year olds made it through 80 because they access to clean drinking water, excellent sanitation systems and a long list of therapies that have been employed to limp the vaccine along during breakthrough infections.  I personally know 6 octogenerian's that survived covid infections pre-vax.  All tested positive for the anti-bodies.  Based on those results one couple has freely chosen their mandated immune system as their first line of defense.  Of course that system is fueled by exercise, good diet, and a purposeful life as brown rice farmers for 57 years.  Three of their daughters are RN's and are well aware of the mini-risk of a 55 million year old Corona virus given their parent's health profile. None of the three couples have had breakthrough infections.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> For medicine, I lean very heavily towards meritocracy.


You're contradicting about 99% of your post with the above.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Do you prefer to crowdsource your choice of ingested chemicals?


Choice?  Ingested?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yes, the kind of educated guess that involves tens of thousands of clinical trial participants followed by very difficult statistics work.
> 
> Maybe, someday, if you spend the next 15 years studying, you could become qualified to help make that kind of educated guess.
> 
> Probably not.  For that kind of educated guess, the education requirements are wicked hard.


It is *difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it*.--Upton Sinclair


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> How many years of education, research and statistical analysis does it take to make a prediction like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UC San Diego virus expert pleads with surfers to stay out of the ocean to avoid coronavirus
> 
> 
> Kim Prather says coastal breezes likely carry coronavirus further than 6 feet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


Funnier still is the UT putting this article in their Science section.  No wonder all the white shark sitings near socal shores haven't resulted in any attacks.  I wonder if the Rona gives off a certain frequency that warns Sharks that someone is vaxxed and or infected with the Rona.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How many years of education, research and statistical analysis does it take to make a prediction like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UC San Diego virus expert pleads with surfers to stay out of the ocean to avoid coronavirus
> 
> 
> Kim Prather says coastal breezes likely carry coronavirus further than 6 feet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


March 2020?

That's back when people were hoarding hand sanitizer and the best treatment available was a ventilator and a coma.

The core message at the time was "stay away from other people while we figure this thing out."  Right up there with "please do not outbid hospitals for the medical supplies."

Nobody knew much back then.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Guessing?  No, and that's not what I wrote.
> 
> There is a boatload of work to prove safety and efficacy.  They did all of that.
> 
> What they did not do was figure out whether some other schedule was slightly better.
> 
> That doesn't mean they were "guessing".   The goal was to get a vaccine out quickly.  So they chose a schedule that could be tested quickly.
> 
> As a result, we were able to vaccinate a lot of our 80+ population before the winter wave got to them.
> 
> Most people see that as a good thing.


You ( and most people) will never admit or want to believe that the process for this vaccine rollout was a tad sketchy.  And in many ways, given the environment, they had to push aside some norms in order to achieve the speed required to approve a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic.  Many are willing to take the risk, nothing wrong with that. Placing blind trust in governmetn and government influenced science/medicine is foolhardy. 

With that said, some basic scientific norms have been violated, bypassed and no one is willing to publicly speak out.  You have to ask yourself why the control groups for moderna and pfizer were vaccinated?   I believe JJ did the same thing.  I certaily believe the risk/reward benefit for some age groups is well worth it.  Control groups obviously are around for a reason.  I suspect (we likely will never address it in this forum, every) there will be something that comes up over time in the out years that shows negative effect, some severe.  This will effect the healthy 20/30 somethings with a long life ahead of them.  Never mind the U18s we are ridicuously trying to vaccinate.  That is irresponsible medicine.  I would love to see pharma executives leading the charge on getting their rugrats vaccinated live on TV for the world to see.  I highly suspect (and know some in that world) that the vaxx rates for U18s with parents in that business will vaccinat their healthy children.  

So, if you are an older he/him/her/zir/thir, have at it, jab away as much as you would like.  The low risk group should be given the option.  We are well past that.  Funny thing, most of the mandates are being driven by old, scared crotchety old people with limited turns remaining around the buoys.  Scared of those with many years to live.  Quite sad and disgusting actually.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It is *difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it*.--Upton Sinclair


Excellent quote


----------



## crush

*Dr. Scott Atlas: 'Science has become politicized'*


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> You ( and most people) will never admit or want to believe that the process for this vaccine rollout was a tad sketchy.  And in many ways, given the environment, they had to push aside some norms in order to achieve the speed required to approve a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic.  Many are willing to take the risk, nothing wrong with that. Placing blind trust in governmetn and government influenced science/medicine is foolhardy.
> 
> With that said, some basic scientific norms have been violated, bypassed and no one is willing to publicly speak out.  You have to ask yourself why the control groups for moderna and pfizer were vaccinated?   I believe JJ did the same thing.  I certaily believe the risk/reward benefit for some age groups is well worth it.  Control groups obviously are around for a reason.  I suspect (we likely will never address it in this forum, every) there will be something that comes up over time in the out years that shows negative effect, some severe.  This will effect the healthy 20/30 somethings with a long life ahead of them.  Never mind the U18s we are ridicuously trying to vaccinate.  That is irresponsible medicine.  I would love to see pharma executives leading the charge on getting their rugrats vaccinated live on TV for the world to see.  I highly suspect (and know some in that world) that the vaxx rates for U18s with parents in that business will vaccinat their healthy children.
> 
> So, if you are an older he/him/her/zir/thir, have at it, jab away as much as you would like.  The low risk group should be given the option.  We are well past that.  Funny thing, most of the mandates are being driven by old, scared crotchety old people with limited turns remaining around the buoys.  Scared of those with many years to live.  Quite sad and disgusting actually.


Can you name any vaccine which turned out to have a severe side effect which only became apparent more than a year after approval?

If no, then you're just scaremongering.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> March 2020?
> 
> That's back when people were hoarding hand sanitizer and the best treatment available was a ventilator and a coma.
> 
> The core message at the time was "stay away from other people while we figure this thing out."  Right up there with "please do not outbid hospitals for the medical supplies."
> 
> Nobody knew much back then.


Just stop. If a surfer is a threat to anyone not surfing next to him, there is zero hope of containing a virus. If the "core message" was, "We discourage being out as it is natural to interact and that interaction can spread the virus.", then that is what they should have said. Instead, ridiculous statements of risk such as this started the process of eroding trust.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

More risk assessment observations. While taking my 40-minute ride yesterday through town (about 1/3) and bike trails (the other 2/3), I passed 11 other riders on the bike trails. Of the 11, 4 were wearing full masks - a lone female rider and three boys who appeared to be riding with an older man (father?) who was not wearing a mask. Anecdotally, that indicates to me that there is still significant support for masking in my area of SC county.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> Just stop. If a surfer is a threat to anyone not surfing next to him, there is zero hope of containing a virus. If the "core message" was, "We discourage being out as it is natural to interact and that interaction can spread the virus.", then that is what they should have said. Instead, ridiculous statements of risk such as this started the process of eroding trust.


... speaking of eroding trust...They changed the definition of case. They changed the definition of infection. They changed the definition of herd immunity. They changed the definition of vaccine...and then wonder why so many people are suspicious.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ... speaking of eroding trust...They changed the definition of case. They changed the definition of infection. They changed the definition of herd immunity. They changed the definition of vaccine...and then wonder why so many people are suspicious.


Those terms were created for conversations within the medical and scientific community.   Your understanding and misunderstanding of such terms is essentially irrelevant.

The definitions of case, infection, vaccine, and herd immunity will be based on what is necessary for experts to meaningfully communicate with each other at a given time.  

And, as the scientific community learns, they will update those terms to reflect the current understanding within the scientific community.  

It happens in any field.  For most disciplines, you never noticed.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> March 2020?
> 
> That's back when people were hoarding hand sanitizer and the best treatment available was a ventilator and a coma.
> 
> The core message at the time was "stay away from other people while we figure this thing out."  Right up there with "please do not outbid hospitals for the medical supplies."
> 
> Nobody knew much back then.


It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.--Upton Sinclair


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.--Upton Sinclair


My pal the teacher was told to get ready for layoffs next year in his district.  It seems their losing customers everyday and word on the street they might lose 10%-15% of their customers.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Can you name any vaccine which turned out to have a severe side effect which only became apparent more than a year after approval?
> 
> If no, then you're just scaremongering.


No one has been more afraid and more wrong on just about everything he’s posted than you.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Those terms were created for conversations within the medical and scientific community.   Your understanding and misunderstanding of such terms is essentially irrelevant.
> 
> The definitions of case, infection, vaccine, and herd immunity will be based on what is necessary for experts to meaningfully communicate with each other at a given time.
> 
> And, as the scientific community learns, they will update those terms to reflect the current understanding within the scientific community.
> 
> It happens in any field.  For most disciplines, you never noticed.


“Those terms were revised by your betters as needed. It is not for you to question them, peasant.

the definitions of case, infection, vaccine and herd immunity will be adjusted to support the necessary policy objectives.

if we are wrong, we will adjust the definitions to reflect the new reality and policy objectives”

wow Just dripping with meritocratic arrogance. The problem with thus approach is there is no accountability.  If we had an independent (including scientific beat) press it would be less if an issue but we dont


----------



## Bruddah IZ

A


dad4 said:


> Those terms were created for conversations within the medical and scientific community.   Your understanding and misunderstanding of such terms is essentially irrelevant.
> 
> The definitions of case, infection, vaccine, and herd immunity will be based on what is necessary for experts to meaningfully communicate with each other at a given time.
> 
> And, as the scientific community learns, they will update those terms to reflect the current understanding within the scientific community.
> 
> It happens in any field.  For most disciplines, you never noticed.


Everyone of those terms have been updated to justify a denial of our constitutional rights to due process and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> “Those terms were revised by your betters as needed. It is not for you to question them, peasant.
> 
> the definitions of case, infection, vaccine and herd immunity will be adjusted to support the necessary policy objectives.
> 
> if we are wrong, we will adjust the definitions to reflect the new reality and policy objectives”
> 
> wow Just dripping with meritocratic arrogance. The problem with thus approach is there is no accountability.  If we had an independent (including scientific beat) press it would be less if an issue but we dont


Dad doesn’t believe in meritocracy.  If he did he wouldn’t be supporting mandates and lockdowns.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> No one has been more afraid and more wrong on just about everything he’s posted than you.


Most of the people who supported cheating, lying and pay to play have bailed.  Dad has been so wrong but he still comes back for more.  He reminds me of another pal who makes six figures teaching.  Great guy but super full of himself.  I told him to let his Ego Go and he laughed at me.  This was a year ago after the heist or some like to say, "The Crime of the Century."  Today, he is now seeing the truth for once and is way more humble.  I told him to know that you have a job for life and retirement for life makes one have to keep their mouth shut or lose their job for life.  It all comes with a price.  That's how you buy people.  Job for life as long as you obey and get the jab(s) and sell the jab to your students and neighbors.  Two Peas and Pod!!


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Can you name any vaccine which turned out to have a severe side effect which only became apparent more than a year after approval?
> 
> If no, then you're just scaremongering.


You basically misunderstand my position.  Scare mongering is a silly term, especially when relating it to how I view current vaccination efforts.  There HAVE been unusual practices in the development and deployment of these series of vaccines. Some for good reason, some are alarming.  Getting rid of a control group is not the norm.  Why was that done?  

If you are comparing the development of these vaccines to earlier ones, then the discussion stops there.  If after 20 months you  haven't developed a healthy skepticism of our government, then that's on you.

We no longer use the oral polio vaccine in this country because of delayed adverse effects.  The CDC is rather quitely ramping up efforts to to study mycocarditis in mainly young, healthy males.  We are inside of a year of of vaccine deployment and the CDC is openly calling this a "new delayed vaccine side effect".  

 People should pay attention to this.  If you are a parent of a healthy young female, then your calculus is different if making a decisiono on vaccination - even though there have been instances of adverse reactions in them as well.  If you are a parent of a healthy young male, your decision criteria is different.  It's good to have choices, especially as a parent.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Those terms were created for conversations within the medical and scientific community.   Your understanding and misunderstanding of such terms is essentially irrelevant.
> 
> The definitions of case, infection, vaccine, and herd immunity will be based on what is necessary for experts to meaningfully communicate with each other at a given time.
> 
> And, as the scientific community learns, they will update those terms to reflect the current understanding within the scientific community.
> 
> It happens in any field.  For most disciplines, you never noticed.


I don't know how much time you've spent in the "medical and scientific community".  It's not a monolithic entity.  Generally speaking, the definitions above have been a constant.  To change them in the face of political discourse is dishonest.  To not recognize that the medical and scientific community is fragemented is naive.  Beyond the headlines that you read or the talking heads that you listen to, these terms remain as defined.  To put your faith these days in entities such as the CDC and the FDA is naive.  There is a reason why they are losing credentialed and respected people within their ranks.  

At some point respect and trust in the CDC and the FDA will be re-estaablished.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> You basically misunderstand my position.  Scare mongering is a silly term, especially when relating it to how I view current vaccination efforts.  There HAVE been unusual practices in the development and deployment of these series of vaccines. Some for good reason, some are alarming.  Getting rid of a control group is not the norm.  Why was that done?
> 
> If you are comparing the development of these vaccines to earlier ones, then the discussion stops there.  If after 20 months you  haven't developed a healthy skepticism of our government, then that's on you.
> 
> We no longer use the oral polio vaccine in this country because of delayed adverse effects.  The CDC is rather quitely ramping up efforts to to study mycocarditis in mainly young, healthy males.  We are inside of a year of of vaccine deployment and the CDC is openly calling this a "new delayed vaccine side effect".
> 
> People should pay attention to this.  If you are a parent of a healthy young female, then your calculus is different if making a decisiono on vaccination - even though there have been instances of adverse reactions in them as well.  If you are a parent of a healthy young male, your decision criteria is different.  It's good to have choices, especially as a parent.


It’s necessary to ask whether a vaccine has bad side effects.  The polio vaccine is a good example of why this is important.  The Carter era flu vaccine is a second.  But by this point, there are billions of people who have had a shot of one of the covid shots.  If there were any vaccine side effect even 1/100 as large as covid, it would be very visible by now.

Myocarditis does not qualify as a hidden side effect.  It is quite well documented, down to the point where both you and I know the relative risks by gender and by cause.  Not exactly hidden.  Nor did the polio vaccine have a hidden side effect.  They knew about it, but polio was worse.

I just don’t see the point in worrying about some unknown side effect that only shows up after five years.  Known side effects like myocarditis?  Document and quantify so you can decide.  Drugs which have never been tried?  Be super cautious.  

Drugs which have been used a billion times in the last year?  Not a lot of sleeper effects left to discover in those.

Now, should people who actually understand the statistics have a good row over study design now and then?  yes, and they do.  But you are not in that room.

Not sure what your point about control groups is.  They had control groups.  Ten seconds with a search engine will demonstrate this.  At the end of the study, they vaccinated the control group because it would be unethical not to.  You think the right way to thank the control group was to leave them at risk of covid for a few extra years?


----------



## crush

For obeying the good Doc, you all can have Thanksgiving together without mask, if everyone has been jabbed.  So if you want a mask free Thanksgiving and you have that one crazy Uncle Rico that thinks with his brain critically, well he's not invited this year.  Poor uncle Rico.  However, if you find yourself in front of a pure blood person like Uncle Rico, then please wear a mask to protect him from you.  Yes, that's right folks.  Today I am asking everyone around me to please wear a mask if you have been jabbed.  I'm hearing some reports that those WHO got jabbed can pass the virus to the non jabbed.  I'm researching more about this break through medical info.  Be safe you guys and please wear mask when you come around those who did not get jabbed.  Thanks-crush

*Fully vaccinated family members can celebrate the holidays without masks, Fauci says*
"Get vaccinated and you can enjoy the holidays very easily. And if you're not, please be careful," Fauci said. "Get tested if you need to get tested when you're getting together, but that's not a substitute for getting vaccinated. *Get yourself vaccinated and you can continue to enjoy interactions with your family and others." *((and keep your fucking job)).  I'm also scratching my brain trying to figure out who has a Xmas parade during Thanksgiving week?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> “Those terms were revised by your betters as needed. It is not for you to question them, peasant.
> 
> the definitions of case, infection, vaccine and herd immunity will be adjusted to support the necessary policy objectives.
> 
> if we are wrong, we will adjust the definitions to reflect the new reality and policy objectives”
> 
> wow Just dripping with meritocratic arrogance. The problem with thus approach is there is no accountability.  If we had an independent (including scientific beat) press it would be less if an issue but we dont


Look, peasant, you took law.  

Not bio.  Not stats.  Not epidemiology.  Just law.  Never had a math course above the AP in high school.

Now you’re playing junior biostatistician, telling us how the definitions should work.  Definitions necessary for models you can’t even read.

How arrogant is that?  You never even tried to learn the material, but you spend your time saying the professionals are doing it all wrong.

On that note, I say PSG paid too much for Messi.  Clearly past his prime.  He’ll drive box office, but after a season or two, he won’t be able to help them win games.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> It’s necessary to ask whether a vaccine has bad side effects.  The polio vaccine is a good example of why this is important.  The Carter era flu vaccine is a second.  But by this point, there are billions of people who have had a shot of one of the covid shots.  If there were any vaccine side effect even 1/100 as large as covid, it would be very visible by now.
> 
> Myocarditis does not qualify as a hidden side effect.  It is quite well documented, down to the point where both you and I know the relative risks by gender and by cause.  Not exactly hidden.  Nor did the polio vaccine have a hidden side effect.  They knew about it, but polio was worse.
> 
> I just don’t see the point in worrying about some unknown side effect that only shows up after five years.  Known side effects like myocarditis?  Document and quantify so you can decide.  Drugs which have never been tried?  Be super cautious.
> 
> Drugs which have been used a billion times in the last year?  Not a lot of sleeper effects left to discover in those.
> 
> Now, should people who actually understand the statistics have a good row over study design now and then?  yes, and they do.  But you are not in that room.
> 
> Not sure what your point about control groups is.  They had control groups.  Ten seconds with a search engine will demonstrate this.  At the end of the study, they vaccinated the control group because it would be unethical not to.  You think the right way to thank the control group was to leave them at risk of covid for a few extra years?


  You live in world of absolutes.  You are still missing the point. Your opinion matters to you and your situation.  It doesn't matter to others.  Vax your kids, have at, it's your choice.  Medicine and research science isn't as linear.  Choice is an important aspect of medicine, like it or not.  If you think mycocarditis is a normal side effect for your healthy 10 year old male , than have it.  If you think your healthy 10 year old male can withstand sars-cov-2 (statistically it's in their favor) then don't vaccinate.

The ethics of continuing on with a placebo group is a good topic of conversation.  But you paint it as black and white.  Many different groups within that placebo group.  Scientist prefer to have a control group.  Ethically, there are ways to continue a placebo group.  Vaccinating the entire group stymies understanding of the vaccines.

Controlled groups help to: identify efficacy against variants, long term protection, differences in paramters (age and infirmity).  Funny how all of these things have arisen the last 6-8 months.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Look, peasant, you took law.
> 
> Not bio.  Not stats.  Not epidemiology.  Just law.  Never had a math course above the AP in high school.
> 
> Now you’re playing junior biostatistician, telling us how the definitions should work.  Definitions necessary for models you can’t even read.
> 
> How arrogant is that?  You never even tried to learn the material, but you spend your time saying the professionals are doing it all wrong.
> 
> On that note, I say PSG paid too much for Messi.  Clearly past his prime.  He’ll drive box office, but after a season or two, he won’t be able to help them win games.


Hilarious! Novice biostat guy accusing others of arrogance while applying nothing but fear.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Look, peasant, you took law.
> 
> Not bio.  Not stats.  Not epidemiology.  Just law.  Never had a math course above the AP in high school.
> 
> Now you’re playing junior biostatistician, telling us how the definitions should work.  Definitions necessary for models you can’t even read.
> 
> How arrogant is that?  You never even tried to learn the material, but you spend your time saying the professionals are doing it all wrong.
> 
> On that note, I say PSG paid too much for Messi.  Clearly past his prime.  He’ll drive box office, but after a season or two, he won’t be able to help them win games.


And yet I outplayed the establishment professionals by what…3 to 1?  4 to 1?  

The funny thing you don’t get is it says far more about their lack of competence than me. Under your world view that shouldn’t happen but it did. And if it does (not just here but repeatedly) what does it say about the value of the Meritocracy (though in fairness much of what i did was just extrapolate out from what the “don’t pass” minority of experts were saying)

may you have as much luck with psg.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> March 2020?
> 
> That's back when people were hoarding hand sanitizer and the best treatment available was a ventilator and a coma.
> 
> The core message at the time was "stay away from other people while we figure this thing out."  Right up there with "please do not outbid hospitals for the medical supplies."
> 
> Nobody knew much back then.


Exactly.  It was speculation at best and the "experts" continue to speculate and fear monger.  The academic arrogance is incredible, I know you can't "break ranks" so maybe that's why you still believe in projections by epidemiologists after repeated failures.  Experts should stick with telling us what happened, not what will happen.  How many times do I have to say no matter how smart, educated, researched etc you are, you still can't predict the future.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Exactly.  It was speculation at best and the "experts" continue to speculate and fear monger.  The academic arrogance is incredible, I know you can't "break ranks" so maybe that's why you still believe in projections by epidemiologists after repeated failures.  Experts should stick with telling us what happened, not what will happen.  How many times do I have to say no matter how smart, educated, researched etc you are, you still can't predict the future.


But he has certainly ignored past respiratory pandemics..  Smart, educated and researched??  Not really.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Those terms were created for conversations within the medical and scientific community.   Your understanding and misunderstanding of such terms is essentially irrelevant.
> 
> The definitions of case, infection, vaccine, and herd immunity will be based on what is necessary for experts to meaningfully communicate with each other at a given time.
> 
> And, as the scientific community learns, they will update those terms to reflect the current understanding within the scientific community.
> 
> It happens in any field.  For most disciplines, you never noticed.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Exactly.  It was speculation at best and the "experts" continue to speculate and fear monger.  The academic arrogance is incredible, I know you can't "break ranks" so maybe that's why you still believe in projections by epidemiologists after repeated failures.  Experts should stick with telling us what happened, not what will happen.  How many times do I have to say no matter how smart, educated, researched etc you are, you still can't predict the future.


Remember that, back when that article was published, you were still convinced that diseases do not display exponential growth.  Grace was convinced that masks don’t work because people touch them.  I was convinced that the initial IFR was correct.  Epidemiologists were convinced it was important to limit access to outdoor gathering spaces.  Not much room for any of us to brag about how right we were on any of those points.

I’m not saying the academics get everything right.  I’m saying other groups are worse.  

As an example, in April, we had to decide on what to do with recovered patients.  The political answer was send them back, which is what New York and New Jersey did.  The medical answer was keep them away from others, which is what Florida and California did.  That worked out better.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Remember that, back when that article was published, you were still convinced that diseases do not display exponential growth.  Grace was convinced that masks don’t work because people touch them.  I was convinced that the initial IFR was correct.  Epidemiologists were convinced it was important to limit access to outdoor gathering spaces.  Not much room for any of us to brag about how right we were on any of those points.
> 
> I’m not saying the academics get everything right.  I’m saying other groups are worse.
> 
> As an example, in April, we had to decide on what to do with recovered patients.  The political answer was send them back, which is what New York and New Jersey did.  The medical answer was keep them away from others, which is what Florida and California did.  That worked out better.



Err, they didn't display exponential growth (at least not the way the experts were talking about).  That was a huge failing of the models.  They were all limiting curves that, depending on the variant and other factors like seasonality, eventually burned out in waves.   When the experts modeled the exponential growth, they were talking about a massive wave which if people weren't locked down would continue to increase until everyone was infected.  We know that didn't happen because of Florida and Sweden...eventually the waves, for reasons not fully understood, burned out, irrespective of measures taken.

Again you are misframing the argument.  The touching point is if we are concerned about surfaces why aren't we concerned about masks.  But I was more concerned with the materials, times of exposure, quality of masks, and outdoors, all of which turned out to be right.

I and several others told you the initial IFR was wrong.  I nailed the prime IFR within .1% give or take.  You were wrong.  At least you admit it.

Many of us said the epidemiologists were wrong about outdoors too.  We were right.

You can try to frame this however you want to save face but the bottom line is team reality was much more on point about everything than team panic, which was wrong about almost everything.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Err, they didn't display exponential growth (at least not the way the experts were talking about).  That was a huge failing of the models.  They were all limiting curves that, depending on the variant and other factors like seasonality, eventually burned out in waves.   When the experts modeled the exponential growth, they were talking about a massive wave which if people weren't locked down would continue to increase until everyone was infected.  We know that didn't happen because of Florida and Sweden...eventually the waves, for reasons not fully understood, burned out, irrespective of measures taken.
> 
> Again you are misframing the argument.  The touching point is if we are concerned about surfaces why aren't we concerned about masks.  But I was more concerned with the materials, times of exposure, quality of masks, and outdoors, all of which turned out to be right.
> 
> I and several others told you the initial IFR was wrong.  I nailed the prime IFR within .1% give or take.  You were wrong.  At least you admit it.
> 
> Many of us said the epidemiologists were wrong about outdoors too.  We were right.
> 
> You can try to frame this however you want to save face but the bottom line is team reality was much more on point about everything than team panic, which was wrong about almost everything.


Game-Set-Match...take the L @dad4


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Err, they didn't display exponential growth (at least not the way the experts were talking about).  That was a huge failing of the models.  They were all limiting curves that, depending on the variant and other factors like seasonality, eventually burned out in waves.   When the experts modeled the exponential growth, they were talking about a massive wave which if people weren't locked down would continue to increase until everyone was infected.  We know that didn't happen because of Florida and Sweden...eventually the waves, for reasons not fully understood, burned out, irrespective of measures taken.
> 
> Again you are misframing the argument.  The touching point is if we are concerned about surfaces why aren't we concerned about masks.  But I was more concerned with the materials, times of exposure, quality of masks, and outdoors, all of which turned out to be right.
> 
> I and several others told you the initial IFR was wrong.  I nailed the prime IFR within .1% give or take.  You were wrong.  At least you admit it.
> 
> Many of us said the epidemiologists were wrong about outdoors too.  We were right.
> 
> You can try to frame this however you want to save face but the bottom line is team reality was much more on point about everything than team panic, which was wrong about almost everything.


Not exponential? 

What are you talking about?  Doubling times were extremely consistent back then.   Plot the early cases on log paper.   You get an almost perfectly straight line, right up until just after the lockdowns started.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Remember that, back when that article was published, you were still convinced that diseases do not display exponential growth.  Grace was convinced that masks don’t work because people touch them.  I was convinced that the initial IFR was correct.  Epidemiologists were convinced it was important to limit access to outdoor gathering spaces.  Not much room for any of us to brag about how right we were on any of those points.
> 
> I’m not saying the academics get everything right.  I’m saying other groups are worse.
> 
> As an example, in April, we had to decide on what to do with recovered patients.  The political answer was send them back, which is what New York and New Jersey did.  The medical answer was keep them away from others, which is what Florida and California did.  That worked out better.


Actually there wasn't exponential growth in perpetuity, regardless I'm not holding myself out as an expert.  Experts shouldn't speculate (because there is an implied sense of credibility which people like you fall for), if they don't have the evidence they should STFU.

When that article was published, my buddy who works at Scripps posted it on social media.  I said it was BS fear mongering.  How did I know that?  It didn't pass the smell test and I've dealt with enough academia "experts" in court cases to know they rely on the theoretical.  In the real world you get fired for making a prediction without any merit.  These idiots are protected by tenure.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not exponential?
> 
> What are you talking about?  Doubling times were extremely consistent back then.   Plot the early cases on log paper.   You get an almost perfectly straight line, right up until just after the lockdowns started.


That's hilarious.  Then you wouldn't have Sweden.  You wouldn't have Florida.  You wouldn't have Los Angeles, which curve looked very different.  In Belgium in winter the curve turned the day the measures were announced.  

The models were wrong.   Now you are just blatantly engaging in historical revisionism.  You are better than that.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> That's hilarious.  Then you wouldn't have Sweden.  You wouldn't have Florida.  You wouldn't have Los Angeles, which curve looked very different.  In Belgium in winter the curve turned the day the measures were announced.
> 
> The models were wrong.   Now you are just blatantly engaging in historical revisionism.  You are better than that.


Except exponential fits his claims perfectly.  It grows exponentially until there are restrictions,  then it gets better and we get complacent or restrictions loosened then it grows exponentially again, more restrictions...rinse and repeat.  From his perspective our policies create the waves and not the virus itself.  Never mind what happened in other countries without lockdowns or the fact there was a wave after the vast majority were vaccinated. Fear the wave.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> As an example, in April, *we had to decide on what to do with recovered patients. * The political answer was send them back, which is what New York and New Jersey did.  The medical answer was keep them away from others, which is what Florida and California did.  That worked out better.


The arrogance you accused Grace of "bolded".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

I hope that someone creates an app such as this for the United States


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Australians remain in the soul-suffocating grip of Covid Derangement Syndrome

If you’re screening and excluding family members from Christmas lunch according to their vaccination status, you’re doing Christmas all wrong.

But Australia’s top rating breakfast television program suggested on Friday that you do just that.

Channel Seven’s Sunrise program featured a segment on “how to handle unvaccinated loved ones over the festive season”, insisting that unvaccinated family members will place everyone else in “a unique predicament” on Christmas Day.

Did mainstream media really need to go there? As if the last two years have not been divisive enough without using Christmas Day to promote fear and segregation.

Program host David Koch told viewers: “As Christmas approaches many of us will be faced with a new dilemma – how to handle unvaccinated loved ones and whether you should spend time with them over the festive season or sit next to them at Christmas dinner.”

Aldus Huxley, who said “the propogandist’s purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human”, would have been impressed.

Personally, I can’t imagine refusing to sit next to a family member – on Christmas Day no less – because they haven’t been jabbed. But that’s because I’m not a jerk. Clearly, the Sunrise producers have a different view of their audience.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Not exponential?
> 
> What are you talking about?  Doubling times were extremely consistent back then.   Plot the early cases on log paper.   You get an almost perfectly straight line, right up until just after the lockdowns started.


Coo coo


----------



## Bruddah IZ

THE LANCET:
COVID-19: stigmatising the unvaccinated is not justified


*There is increasing evidence that vaccinated individuals continue to have a relevant role in transmission. *In Massachusetts, USA, a total of 469 new COVID-19 cases were detected during various events in July, 2021, and 346 (74%) of these cases were in people who were fully or partly vaccinated, 274 (79%) of whom were symptomatic. Cycle threshold values were similarly low between people who were fully vaccinated (median 22·8) and people who were unvaccinated, not fully vaccinated, or whose vaccination status was unknown (median 21·5), indicating a high viral load even among people who were fully vaccinated. In the USA, a total of 10 262 COVID-19 cases were reported in vaccinated people by April 30, 2021, of whom 2725 (26·6%) were asymptomatic, 995 (9·7%) were hospitalised, and 160 (1·6%) died. *In Germany, 55·4% of symptomatic COVID-19 cases in patients aged 60 years or older were in fully vaccinated individuals, and this proportion is increasing each week.* In Münster, Germany, new cases of COVID-19 occurred in at least 85 (22%) of 380 people who were fully vaccinated or who had recovered from COVID-19 and who attended a nightclub. People who are vaccinated have a lower risk of severe disease but are still a relevant part of the pandemic. It is therefore wrong and dangerous to speak of a pandemic of the unvaccinated. *Historically, both the USA and Germany have engendered negative experiences by stigmatising parts of the population for their skin colour or religion. *I call on high-level officials and scientists to stop the inappropriate stigmatisation of unvaccinated people, who include our patients, colleagues, and other fellow citizens, and to put extra effort into bringing society together.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 254 of the 2016 second edition of Thomas Sowell’s excellent volume _Wealth, Poverty and Politics_:



> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The crucial fact is that it is far easier to concentrate power than to concentrate knowledge.*_


*DBx*: Undeniably true. It is, therefore, especially astounding that nearly all proponents of government intervention succeed in passing off as science-based their proposals for policies that will work only if sufficient knowledge is concentrated in the heads of those persons who wield concentrated power. These peddlers of _faux_ scientific policy analyses simply _assume_ that such concentration of knowledge not only _can_ happen, but _will_ happen.

If an engineer submitted a design for a bridge suspended by nothing but thin air, and in doing so announced that he assumes that gravity doesn’t operate on bridges, that engineer would of course be roundly criticized and never again asked to design a bridge (or anything else). Yet when the likes of economists, lawyers, and think-tank scholars submit – as they very often do – designs for public policy built on the _assumption_ that the requisite knowledge will somehow be concentrated in the heads of the appropriate government officials, professors, pundits, and politicians Oooh! and Ahhh! as if they are witnessing the work of great geniuses.

The spectacle would be nothing but low comedy if the consequences weren’t so horrible.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

_National Review_‘s Wesley Smith reports on the *Covidocracy’s authoritarian nature – specifically here, on the demand by Francis Collins, the outgoing head of the National Institutes of Health, that those who dissent from his and other officials’ claims about Covid and Covid-mitigation efforts not only be censored, but “brought to justice.”* A slice:

There are abundant reasons why our public-health leaders are less than universally trusted. For example, *Anthony Fauci admitted to lying about masks early in the pandemic. He also prevaricated — at best — about U.S. goverment funding of “gain of function” viral research.* And he seemed intoxicated by his fame, to the point that he often acted more like an A-list celebrity than a scientist.

Beyond personalities, people have noticed that our most prestigious scientific and medical journals have gone woke. This ideological poisoning of “science” breeds distrust in the process and the conclusions published in these journals — as I and others have written.

Not only that, but people have also noticed that many in “the science community” seem to relish their newfound power — and want to expand it beyond fighting COVID. For example, Fauci has urged that the U.N. and WHO be strengthened to “rebuild the infrastructure of human existence” to prevent future pandemics. *Meanwhile, others want technocrats to be empowered to force policies on the public to fight climate change, as they have during the pandemic.*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> My pal the teacher was told to get ready for layoffs next year in his district.  It seems their losing customers everyday and word on the street they might lose 10%-15% of their customers.


It will be interesting to see how public schools evolve. They risk not only losing those who don't support their idealogical direction but also those high acheivers who found out they could do much more in less time when unshackled from the classroom. I don't expect public schools and their supporters to take this loss of power laying down - especially in bluer states such as CA. Expect legislation to make home schooling more difficult to be coming soon.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Not only that, but people have also noticed that many in “the science community” seem to relish their newfound power — and want to expand it beyond fighting COVID. For example, Fauci has urged that the U.N. and WHO be strengthened to “rebuild the infrastructure of human existence” to prevent future pandemics. *Meanwhile, others want technocrats to be empowered to force policies on the public to fight climate change, as they have during the pandemic.*[/SIZE]


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
- A. Lincoln


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Freddie Sayers tweets about the newly announced arrival in Austria of the *straw man in full*:

Well that didn’t last long.  Cases actually started increasing *faster* after the lockdown for the unvaccinated, so Austria is now moving to universal lockdown and mandatory vaccination from the spring.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Fortunately, more Europeans are protesting *the straw-man’s current stomping* through their countries…. And, because the U.S. media are largely silent on these protests, el gato malo offers this post.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Australians remain in the soul-
> Aldus Huxley, who said “the propogandist’s purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human”, would have been impressed.



That is a great quote.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Freddie Sayers tweets about the newly announced arrival in Austria of the *straw man in full*:
> 
> Well that didn’t last long.  Cases actually started increasing *faster* after the lockdown for the unvaccinated, so Austria is now moving to universal lockdown and mandatory vaccination from the spring.


So, it's not a pandemic of the unvaccinated? Let's go to @dad4 for a definition update


----------



## crush

Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a Pfizer board member, told CNBC that people should get their booster as soon as possible because breakthrough infections are occurring more than the public realizes.  Dr. Fraud said he is now super duper concerned about celebrating with the non-vax over the Thanksgiving and thinks this will be a very DARK WINTER!  Here we go again.  Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.  My pal got his 3rd jab and told me he's done and no more.  My other best pal told me to just get the jab and stop holding things up.  I told him again our reasons and he said they were stupid reasons.  I told him again and again it ancestral from roots and he laughs.  I laugh at him and we just both laugh all this off.  2020 and 2021 has been two crazy years.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It will be interesting to see how public schools evolve. They risk not only losing those who don't support their idealogical direction but also those high acheivers who found out they could do much more in less time when unshackled from the classroom. I don't expect public schools and their supporters to take this loss of power laying down - especially in bluer states such as CA. Expect legislation to make home schooling more difficult to be coming soon.


You’re probably right.  They’ve already had a couple of attempts to restrict homeschools in CA.

If they actually succeed, they may not like the results.  A small fraction of people homeschool because it is easier than fighting the school district on some other issue.   End homeschool, and most of those families are in your face demanding something.   And, since they have the resources to homeschool, they probably have the resources to file a lawsuit to back up their demand.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, it's not a pandemic of the unvaccinated? Let's go to @dad4 for a definition update


More likely that by enforcing rules on spaces where you can see people, you shift them to places you can’t see.

I haven’t read the Austrian law.  If they restricted movement of the unvaccinated, that’s a big mistake.  Same mistake as we made closing beaches and parks.


----------



## crush

Satire meme only and just for laughs......


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re probably right.  They’ve already had a couple of attempts to restrict homeschools in CA.
> 
> If they actually succeed, they may not like the results.  A small fraction of people homeschool because it is easier than fighting the school district on some other issue.   End homeschool, and most of those families are in your face demanding something.   And, since they have the resources to homeschool, they probably have the resources to file a lawsuit to back up their demand.


This is a very good point.

I really want to support public schooling. I was a teacher many years ago and have recently gotten certified again in CA. If they would just focus on serving families' needs and not trying to protect their headcount, it would be much easier to support. I like that schools have gone out of their way to make sure those with special needs are served. They need to do the same thing for advanced students and students who are involved in activities outside of school that may require them to miss time. The responsibility that it takes to manage school while having those activities is an important life skill. It's a shame, really.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> More likely that by enforcing rules on spaces where you can see people, you shift them to places you can’t see.
> 
> I haven’t read the Austrian law.  If they restricted movement of the unvaccinated, that’s a big mistake.  Same mistake as we made closing beaches and parks.


Grace probably read it. I'll wait for her update and for espola to say "nonsense".

Maybe what they did was issue a mandate that the unvaccinated were not allowed to catch the virus.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Grace probably read it. I'll wait for her update and for espola to say "nonsense".
> 
> Maybe what they did was issue a mandate that the unvaccinated were not allowed to catch the virus.


I didn't really catch it.  It was under my Christmas tree last year.  Coming up on 1 year without reinfection and a month old blood test that reads positive for significant Sars Cov 2 anti-bodies......STILL.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

James Alexander decries totalitarianism even when it is “nice.”

A few weeks ago I wrote a passage simply in order to get my thoughts in order on the way the world is turning. Here it is:

*Our modern state ideology, our political correctness, appears to be three-pronged, like the devil’s fork or trident.

The first prong is climate change, its inevitability: carbon emission, global warming, rising sea levels and the need to do something about them.

The second prong is the pandemic, the necessity of dealing with a virus by the negative measures of lockdown, masks, distancing and the positive measures of vaccines and other, somewhat belated, treatments*.

*The third prong is wokery, or the requirement that we adopt the set of miscellaneous views about ‘Gay’, ‘Women’, ‘Race’ and ‘Trans’ which Douglas Murray has itemized in The Madness of Crowds.*

Evidently, great minds think alike, and some great minds organize their thoughts more quickly than other great minds. For after writing the above I saw that Will Jones in an excellent article for the _Daily Sceptic_ entitled “The Unholy Trinity of Social Control” had been the first to see that these three forces have to be assembled into a triad. He called them Covid, Climate Change and CRT (or Critical Race Theory). I admire the alliteration, though I think we might have to sacrifice some it so as not to emphasize the issue of race too much. Here I will call them CLIMATE, COVID and WOKERY. However, the three, whatever one calls them, must be so obvious to all of us that we should applaud Jones for having not only named them but put them together.

Let me try to take the thought a bit further.

We need to recognize that these are three elements of what we should probably call NICE TOTALITARIANISM. The words ‘social control’ do not quite capture the _total_ significance of what is being put forward by our governments. Every government ever in the history of the world has believed in _some_ measure of social control. To some extent, we define government in terms of its achievement of social control – though this, of course, may be minimally or maximally interpreted. The reason I prefer the phrase ‘nice totalitarianism’ is that it captures the fact that the control now, if not maximal, is a lot closer to maximal than anyone would have expected a few years ago. But there is another reason I prefer it: and this is because it captures the distinctively Western, or specifically, in our case, British, tonality of this totalitarianism: the fact that it is _nice_.

We are being _nice_, through ‘saving the planet’ (by sitting down on a busy road or sightseeing wind turbines), ‘making oppressed people feel included and secure’ (by tossing a statue into the sea or signing a petition) and ‘preventing Covid deaths’ (by wearing a mask or getting vaccinated)._ Who would not want to do those things?_
…..

COVID is the name of the threat: it threatens us as _individuals_, threatening us with suffering and an early death, though our response to it has been interestingly not only collective but coercive. *Let us call the response to this threat FAUCISM.* (We need a name for the response, to cover the myriad of non-pharmaceutical and pharmaceutical interventions. *Anthony Fauci’s name may stand for the whole enterprise, as he is more internationally famous *than our own Chris Whitty or Patrick Vallance, as well as more determined and more obviously compromised: *and he has become the object of a cult in the United States at least.)*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

William Nattrass asks why, throughout much of the European continent, lockdowns of the unvaccinated have so quickly become the norm. A slice:

It is now common for Covid vaccine sceptics in the Czech Republic and Slovakia to compare the level of state control being exercised against them to the authoritarianism they witnessed in the twentieth century. *A regional head of the Czech state healthcare body responsible for enforcing pandemic restrictions recently complained that members of the public were comparing them to the **Czechoslovak secret police during the Communist era.*


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Grace probably read it. I'll wait for her update and for espola to say "nonsense".
> 
> Maybe what they did was issue a mandate that the unvaccinated were not allowed to catch the virus.


The details weren’t published, not suppose to kick in until feb 1 but for a while the unvaccinated were lockdown: you had to carry your papers and the police were authorized to stop and check you. Given the history of Austria and fascism , this led to some vocal comparisons.  But now everyone is in lockdown (except kids going to school) so it’s a moot point again until details published.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The details weren’t published, not suppose to kick in until feb 1 but for a while the unvaccinated were lockdown: you had to carry your papers and the police were authorized to stop and check you. Given the history of Austria and fascism , this led to some vocal comparisons.  But now everyone is in lockdown (except kids going to school) so it’s a moot point again until details published.


Nonsense! Oh, sorry, thank you.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462554007533232132


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462612125910810627


----------



## espola




----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> View attachment 12132


The cartoon sort of misunderstands the problem.  Outhouses worked well in rural areas.  The problem was the cities which as late as the 19th century even Paris was filled with feces in the streets.  People didn't want to go to outhouses in apartment buildings because they were poorly maintained and stunk.  The addition of the sewers (a tech issue portrayed in your cartoon which came much later than the medieval period) actually encouraged people to use them by making them more hygenic to use.  It also brought the harrington, which had languished for centuries in limbo, into popular acceptance. It was a tech fix, and it did not occur during the Medieval era and was largely welcomed by the population (if at a minimum for the simple reason they didn't have to pay for latrine cleaners).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The cartoon sort of misunderstands the problem.  Outhouses worked well in rural areas.  The problem was the cities which as late as the 19th century even Paris was filled with feces in the streets.  People didn't want to go to outhouses in apartment buildings because they were poorly maintained and stunk.  The addition of the sewers (a tech issue portrayed in your cartoon which came much later than the medieval period) actually encouraged people to use them by making them more hygenic to use.  It also brought the harrington, which had languished for centuries in limbo, into popular acceptance. It was a tech fix, and it did not occur during the Medieval era and was largely welcomed by the population (if at a minimum for the simple reason they didn't have to pay for latrine cleaners).


The outhouse in the cartoon has a sewer pipe attached (which is pretty much the whole point).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The outhouse in the cartoon has a sewer pipe attached (which is pretty much the whole point).


Again you are missing the point.  It didn't happen with medieval peasants.  People welcomed the sewer pipe because it meant no more stinky outhouses.  It was mostly a tech, not purely a legislative fix.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again you are missing the point.  It didn't happen with medieval peasants.  People welcomed the sewer pipe because it meant no more stinky outhouses.  It was mostly a tech, not purely a legislative fix.


Whoosh!


----------



## Grace T.

This is really fascinating.  So people for the longest time have been trying to explain why the virus acted differently in the Americas and Europe than Asia.  Yes, it's possible masks helped, but that doesn't explain why Japan had a wave that suddenly went away. Yes, seasonality probably impacts the R but that doesn't explain why South Korea is rising when Japan is falling to almost zero.  Yes it's possible Japan's liberal Ivermectin policy helped, bu we know the studies show that at best Ivermectin is only partially efficacious (similar to masks....it's not enough to control an outbreak).

But in this video Dr. John goes over a new study.  The study show two likely possibilities: a. more people in Asia seem to have a defensive enzyme called APOBEC3A which helps defend against RNA viruses, and b. the virus has mutated to the point where it's structure has too many errors to remain viable.  Fascinating stuff....suggest the end of this may become from an unexpected source and still could very well disappear rather than from human controls.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Whoosh!


Crash!

Again you don't get it.  I get that the point of your joke was to make a stupid partisan point about the antivaxxers.  My point back is that the cartoon is stupid for the reasons given, and if anything illustrates the opposite point that it's trying to make, but if anything is so in love with it's stupid partisan point that it fails to notice.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Crash!
> 
> Again you don't get it.  I get that the point of your joke was to make a stupid partisan point about the antivaxxers.  My point back is that the cartoon is stupid for the reasons given, and if anything illustrates the opposite point that it's trying to make, but if anything is so in love with it's stupid partisan point that it fails to notice.


You're doing great!  Please continue.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> You're doing great!  Please continue.


Drip.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> View attachment 12132


That russian troll farm has you hook line and sinker....they are pretty good..


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> That russian troll farm has you hook line and sinker....they are pretty good..


It's not even a particularly good trollish cartoon.  Kinda like Elaine Benis' ziggy.  the joke is not only did she unintentionally take the ziggy but she took a bad one.


----------



## Grace T.

Will they blink?









						Los Angeles Prepares to Kick 44,000 Unvaxxed Kids Out of School Buildings
					

California is leading the country in student vaccine mandates that will disproportionately harm the education of poor and minority students.




					reason.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Will they blink?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los Angeles Prepares to Kick 44,000 Unvaxxed Kids Out of School Buildings
> 
> 
> California is leading the country in student vaccine mandates that will disproportionately harm the education of poor and minority students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reason.com


No. 

I will take a legal victory in courts to put a stop to this.


----------



## thirteenknots

Lions Gate Hospital British Columbia Canada
11/23/2021 
13 pregnant ladies fully vaccinated.
13 stillborn babies in one 24 hour period.
Dr Mel Bruchet and Dr Danial Nagase filed
Criminal complaints against the Hospital with the 
RCMP police regarding payouts to the staff of
Provincial Health to hush this current information.
Apparently this is an escalating " event " that is not
being reported at ALL Hospitals. This was exposed
by a whistleblower who risked their job to expose this !


----------



## thirteenknots

Grace T. said:


> Will they blink?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los Angeles Prepares to Kick 44,000 Unvaxxed Kids Out of School Buildings
> 
> 
> California is leading the country in student vaccine mandates that will disproportionately harm the education of poor and minority students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reason.com





Desert Hound said:


> No.
> 
> I will take a legal victory in courts to put a stop to this.



Follow the Money.
The House of Cards is collapsing at a very fast rate.
They CANNOT hide this very much longer.
Just like the CRT that is being sold/taught in LAUSD.
Look at the LA City Attorney and the connection with Panorama.
You CANNOT hide the Truth anymore.


----------



## thirteenknots

36 Names of Humanitys Killer Exposed by Dr David Martin (bitchute.com)


----------



## Grace T.

Further to the Japanese study.....



			https://winepressnews.com/2021/11/20/japan-says-the-delta-variant-is-rapidly-disappearing-attributed-to-self-extinction/


----------



## Grace T.

interesting....









						Lose the Mask. Eat the Turkey. And Other Sane Advice For This Thanksgiving.
					

A reasonable doctor's guide to enjoying the holidays and not killing your grandparents.




					bariweiss.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> interesting....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lose the Mask. Eat the Turkey. And Other Sane Advice For This Thanksgiving.
> 
> 
> A reasonable doctor's guide to enjoying the holidays and not killing your grandparents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bariweiss.substack.com


The counterpoint....









						Opinion | Is it safe to eat Thanksgiving dinner with unvaccinated guests?
					

Big gatherings can feel nerve-wracking, especially if you know some folks around the table this year won't be vaccinated.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Whoosh!


Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


same offer as before...pm me with your iq.  I'll send you mine.  Come on...it will be fun.

And before you say "well IQ isn't necessary a correlation with various types of intelligence" totally agree.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Crash!
> 
> Again you don't get it.  I get that the point of your joke was to make a stupid partisan point about the antivaxxers.  My point back is that the cartoon is stupid for the reasons given, and if anything illustrates the opposite point that it's trying to make, but if anything is so in love with it's stupid partisan point that it fails to notice.


Partisan? Are you saying you believe all anti-vaxxers are from one political party?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Partisan? Are you saying you believe all anti-vaxxers are from one political party?


No.  You can be partisan with a point of view (one camp v another). The data also belies that the antivaxxers are all from one political party.  There is a notable block in the D party and you know who is overly represented in that block.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> same offer as before...pm me with your iq.  I'll send you mine.  Come on...it will be fun.
> 
> And before you say "well IQ isn't necessary a correlation with various types of intelligence" totally agree.


148 last I tested


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No.  You can be partisan with a point of view (one camp v another). The data also belies that the antivaxxers are all from one political party.  There is a notable block in the D party and you know who is overly represented in that block.


There have always been similarities between the extremes . . . radicals unite.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


I assume you realized that late in life as you were looking in the mirror?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> 148 last I tested


Haha.  Funny.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> 148 last I tested


That was an STD test.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


I'm finding the reactions funnier than the cartoon.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm finding the reactions funnier than the cartoon.


Of course you would…the cartoon was stupid and didn’t know it stood for the opposite case you were trying to make…that alone guaranteed the humor particularly since you didn’t see it.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Partisan? Are you saying you believe all anti-vaxxers are from one political party?


What's an anti-vaxxer these days?  hasn't the definition changed?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Of course you would…the cartoon was stupid and didn’t know it stood for the opposite case you were trying to make…that alone guaranteed the humor particularly since you didn’t see it.


q.e.d.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


Stay in class.  You'll get there someday.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

An economist friend of mine sent to me this photo of a poster that still hangs in the entry way to his children’s elementary school.

	
	
		
		
	


	





My friend, who prefers to remain anonymous, writes:



> But it is striking how, two years ago, the sentiment Michelle Obama expressed would have been a cliche. Now it sounds radical.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*“You can’t make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen.”--Michelle Obama's cliche*

While I can’t speak for Ms. Obama, I assure you that my favorable posting of her remark was not, contrary to your interpretation, *a “rash call to ignore risks.” Of course risks must be accounted for. And also of course, the higher the risk of harm from any particular source, the greater should be the amount of precaution taken against that source.

But this reality – this counsel of prudence – doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable to overreact to any one risk. After all, it’s typically the case that the greater the precaution you take against risk X, the greater becomes your exposure to risks Y and Z. And so if you focus exclusively on risk X you ignore these other risks. Therefore, while you might succeed in your narrow effort to reduce as much as possible your exposure to risk X, you’ll be unaware of your resulting higher – and likely excessive – exposure to other risks.*

I posted that photo at my blog as evidence that in a more-sane era – namely, before March 2020 – there was popular understanding that an action is not inadvisable merely because that action entails some risk. *Yet too many people today ignore this truth on all matters related to Covid. Too many people today assume that no amount of risk, regardless of how small, of encountering Covid-19 is acceptable – and, therefore, that no price is too high to pay for even the minutest increment of reduction in the risks of encountering Covid.

This attitude is what I call Covid Derangement Syndrome.* I’m convinced that this syndrome poses to society a _far_ larger risk than does Covid itself. Against the latter we have vaccines (and, if we only had the good sense to use it, the option of Focused Protection); against the former we have too few defenses.

Sincerely,
Don


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> What's an anti-vaxxer these days?  hasn't the definition changed?


Paranoid is paranoid. Whether you have past governmental experiments to stoke your fear or Joe Rogan it turns out the same. Although the former has a bit more ground to stand on than the latter.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> An economist friend of mine sent to me this photo of a poster that still hangs in the entry way to his children’s elementary school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My friend, who prefers to remain anonymous, writes:


Hahaha! Around here that sentiment can get you labeled as an Anti-vax Trumper but not by anyone who has any credibility.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Around here that sentiment can get you labeled as an Anti-vax Trumper but not by anyone who has any credibility.


Like trump, dizzy has no true ideology, he just craves attention, and is perpetually aggrieved.


----------



## crush

Professor Crush is teaching a class on:  Electricity & Batteries ((Left side of brain)) vs Magnetism ((Right Side of Brain)).

Let's start the class with a Q.  Why can any smart Cat go to college and find over 80 degrees to work in the Electrical field but find ZERO degrees in Magnetism?  I will wait for your answers.


----------



## crush

*Brain Tease*

Just after daybreak, Jesus stood on the beach; but the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to them, 'Children, you have no fish, have you? ' They answered him, 'No. ' He said to them, *'Cast the net to the right side of the boat, and you will find some.*

It's in plain site but must don;t want to cross over.  They want to stay in the 5 senses ((left brain)).  Let GO of Ego and I promise your eyes will be open from being so blind,


----------



## crush

Here some visual help for those who are a little slow of understanding.  This is hard to grasp so take your time trying to figure out why your on earth.  That blue ball in the brain, that's where it all is folks.


----------



## crush

Math anyone?

Euclidean Math: 1 apple+1 apple= 2 apples

God Math:  1 magnet + 1 Magnet=?


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like trump, dizzy has no true ideology, he just craves attention, and is perpetually aggrieved.


...pot meet kettle.

...rich


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Around here that sentiment can get you labeled as an Anti-vax Trumper but not by anyone who has any credibility.


Shocker. Lol!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like trump, dizzy has no true ideology, he just craves attention, and is perpetually aggrieved.


Speaking of aggrieved.  I see you have developed any anti-bodies for your Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Back to quarantine you go.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Paranoid is paranoid. Whether you have past governmental experiments to stoke your fear or Joe Rogan it turns out the same. Although the former has a bit more ground to stand on than the latter.


Have no idea what you are talking about, really.  But I'll bite.  What past experiments?  And what's wrong with Joe Rogan?  Seems like he has the better of the experts show up on his show.  Looks to me like the reasonable person who wants an unbiased look at what's happening in the world should tune into JRE.  Nice to have choices right?


----------



## Brav520

Had no idea google was full of MAGA people

NEW: Hundreds of Google employees are petitioning the company to retract its Covid-19 vaccine mandate after executives widened the policy ahead of required office returns.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Had no idea google was full of MAGA people
> 
> NEW: Hundreds of Google employees are petitioning the company to retract its Covid-19 vaccine mandate after executives widened the policy ahead of required office returns.


My pal does contract work with all the top players in Silicon & Seattle and he has to be jabbed twice+boosters to be in good standing with most of the big power players WHO make the pay to play decisions.  It's basically understood with a look in the eye that tells everyone how to make money in this system and you best better obey or else you will be outside looking in.  Same thing with the public schools, Universities, any health profession and any Bossman WHO has over 100 under him has to obey The WHO.  I have another pal that owns a big company and he is selling and retiring.  He can't obey the mandates and then be a known liar to his crew under him.  "Hey Charlie, get the jab or your fired dude."


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> Had no idea google was full of MAGA people
> 
> NEW: Hundreds of Google employees are petitioning the company to retract its Covid-19 vaccine mandate after executives widened the policy ahead of required office returns.


...funny how that works.


----------



## MicPaPa

What a great idea for all you paranoid COVID nut bags, you still have time to set this up before tomorrow.

As for me, I'll be leading a loud and proud rendition of "Let's Go Brandon" to a packed house while gnawing on a turkey leg.

Happy Thanksgiving! and hug a root to you lefties.

"



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463539499397431306">November 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...funny how that works.


So many were afraid to come out of the closet as t voters because of what happenned on facebook after HRC lost.  The battle lines were drawn and you best be full of hate of the one man, love the black widow only and support her causes, regardless if you even voted in the election.  And, you better be willing to pay with soul, to play this fake game of life that is built around fear and cheating with the foundation of lying, mixed in with every kind of hate known to man.  Anyone person or group that teaches you to hate first is from the evil side man.  No ifs and or buts.  It's the truth.  It's getting to the big trial next week that has these Rats running for cover.  Some are retiring to save face.  Popcorn, get some popcorn because this is starting to get really intense.


----------



## Brav520

MicPaPa said:


> What a great idea for all you paranoid COVID nut bags, you still have time to set this up before tomorrow.
> 
> As for me, I'll be leading a loud and proud rendition of "Let's Go Brandon" to a packed house while gnawing on a turkey leg.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving! and hug a root to you lefties.
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463539499397431306">November 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


none of the people suggesting this nonsense are actually doing it themselves


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> What a great idea for all you paranoid COVID nut bags, you still have time to set this up before tomorrow.
> 
> As for me, I'll be leading a loud and proud rendition of "Let's Go Brandon" to a packed house while gnawing on a turkey leg.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving! and hug a root to you lefties.
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463539499397431306">November 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Red lines have been drawn everyone and all they do is laugh.  "Hahahahahha" so funny as so many have lost their jobs and now they aren;t welcome to Family Turkey Day.  Its starts with family and they want family divided, just like they want our country divided.  My wife and I are going to pick up the Out Laws tomorrow afternoon (( both have been Jabbed and both have Alzheimer's and need our help as we are the only ones around this year)) and bring them to spend the Holiday Weekend with us.   This clown wants me to test them in my garage with BG's new rapid BS test?  You guys are so messed up and look like complete fools and the liars and cheaters that you have always been.  Captain Obvious is laughing.


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> none of the people suggesting this nonsense are actually doing it themselves


Garage?  Not sure where he gets that idea. Call him a loon, but don't assume he speaks for anyone but himself.

Most covid conservative families are all vaccinated and boosted by now.  Normal Thanksgiving for us.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The show me state, showing the way.  Well done Missouri.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Garage?  Not sure where he gets that idea. Call him a loon, but don't assume he speaks for anyone but himself.
> 
> Most covid conservative families are all vaccinated and boosted by now.  Normal Thanksgiving for us.


The left is the left, the right are the right (radicals out on an island trying to lure others in) and liberals are the new conservatives (the vast middle). Don’t believe the hypemeisters.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> The left is the left, the right are the right (radicals out on an island trying to lure others in) and liberals are the new conservatives (the vast middle). Don’t believe the hypemeisters.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Wow, this is insane folks.  Happy Maskgiving to all of you.


----------



## Grace T.

This was just too much fun not to post.  They recently released the raw data from the Bangladesh mask study.  This is a fun read of the mathematical problems behind it.  Quick dumbdown is they concluded  "masks work!' based on extrapolating a handful of cases.  Interesting discussion too which dad4 and I have delved into between reduction in cases and efficiency.  I look forward to dad4's critique.





__





						Revisiting the Bangladesh Mask RCT.
					

Musings on systems, information, learning, and optimization.



					www.argmin.net


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This was just too much fun not to post.  They recently released the raw data from the Bangladesh mask study.  This is a fun read of the mathematical problems behind it.  Quick dumbdown is they concluded  "masks work!' based on extrapolating a handful of cases.  Interesting discussion too which dad4 and I have delved into between reduction in cases and efficiency.  I look forward to dad4's critique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting the Bangladesh Mask RCT.
> 
> 
> Musings on systems, information, learning, and optimization.
> 
> 
> 
> www.argmin.net


E=Mc2 is another bs math magician nonsense.  I can't wait to teach everyone on here that everything is "zero" and not 1+1.  Magnetism is the truth, not stupid Einstein WHO only ate Ice Cream and was just an actor.  Dude was used as some genius's who used more of his left side of his brain ((ego)) then others and help helped then create a monster bomb to kill.  Oh boy, what a place to live in fear.....


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Have no idea what you are talking about, really.  But I'll bite.  What past experiments?  And what's wrong with Joe Rogan?  Seems like he has the better of the experts show up on his show.  Looks to me like the reasonable person who wants an unbiased look at what's happening in the world should tune into JRE.  Nice to have choices right?


Rogan had Gupta on his show after all.  It's not Rogan's fault that Gupta embarrassed himself.   True, Gupta did not have a home field advantage, but if anything Gupta embarrassed himself because he's not used to debating outside the echo chamber like CNN.  It's the reason the View ladies beclown themselves when they are outside their forum too and veto hard debating conservatives in the right leaning seat or strong conservative guests.  On the left, figures that regularly challenge themselves with opposing views, like Maher, or Ana Kasparian (who held her own and even did better in a recent debate with Ben Shapiro) do well.


----------



## crush

Too many players are grabbing at their chest.  This did not happen before, right?  









						Nothing to see here! Just another football player collapsing on the pitch!
					

Video taken from COVID VACCINE VICTIMS AND FAMILIES. - Adama Treore went down clutching at his chest, mainstream media are reporting ‘chest pains’.  Telegram: https://t.me/covid19vaccinevictims




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Help!!!



Santa Cruz County in California issued a mask mandate for all indoor settings, including private homes, ahead of the holiday season.

The mandate went into effect at 11:59 p.m. on November 21 and requires “all individuals to wear a face covering when indoors regardless of vaccination status.”

“Unfortunately, *a potential winter surge appears *to be a significant threat to the health and safety of our community,” said Santa Cruz County Health Officer Dr. Gail Newel in the announcement. “As we look forward to spending time with those we love during the holidays, it is important to protect vulnerable friends and family members by wearing a mask indoors.


----------



## crush

This dude has lost his shit.  WTF kind of board games does guy think we want to play with him?  I love you guys but man, this guy is a salesman and he is pitching pandemics and vaccines forever.  Come on man!!!


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> Rogan had Gupta on his show after all.  It's not Rogan's fault that Gupta embarrassed himself.   True, Gupta did not have a home field advantage, but if anything Gupta embarrassed himself because he's not used to debating outside the echo chamber like CNN.  It's the reason the View ladies beclown themselves when they are outside their forum too and veto hard debating conservatives in the right leaning seat or strong conservative guests.  On the left, figures that regularly challenge themselves with opposing views, like Maher, or Ana Kasparian (who held her own and even did better in a recent debate with Ben Shapiro) do well.


...left vs. liberal point...classic liberals like Maher are realizing the left is a cancer and rapidly taking over the party... whereas, The View clowns are the left's useful idiot foot soldiers. 

...I for one look forward to VA on a National scale next year.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

More on the Age Distribution of Covid's Victims
Don Boudreaux

Here’s a slightly modified version of a comment that I left at EconLog on this post by Thomas Firey – a post in which Firey argues that official Covid death counts are likely _not _overestimated.

Tom:

*Your analysis here is solid and important. Thanks for doing it.* (While I still have some lingering worry about possible distortions introduced into the data by the point raised by commenter DeservingPorcupine, your analysis significantly weakens my suspicion that the premium paid to hospitals for each Medicare patient listed as having Covid creates a serious _over _counting of Covid deaths.)

But I want to warn against a possible, although unintentional, misimpression created when you write that

_though COVID’s dead were predominantly aged, it doesn’t appear that much of that death toll can be dismissed as simply depriving a few weeks of life from already-deteriorating victims. Again, half-a-million-plus more people died in 2020 than 2019._

“Predominantly” is an understatement. A more-accurate descriptor is “overwhelmingly.” According the latest CDC data, more than half – 52 percent – of Covid deaths in the U.S. are of people 75 years old and older, with 27 percent of Covid deaths being of people 85 years old and older.

Seventy-five percent of Covid deaths in America are of people retirement age (65) and older.

On the other side, only 7 percent of Covid deaths are of people below the age of 50.

Also, the argument made by those of us who insist on the relevance of the undeniable and very steep age gradient of Covid’s serious health consequences does _not_ rest on any claim that most Covid deaths are of people whose remaining life expectancies were only a few weeks. For example, the typical 85-year-old in the U.S. can expect to live about another six or seven years. And so while Covid is more likely to kill an 85-year-old who is unusually ill for his or her age (than to kill a healthier 85-year-old), it’s still unlikely that the typical elderly person killed by Covid had only a few _weeks_ of life remaining. That person likely had several months or even a few years of life remaining.

Covid is real and it really kills. And such a loss of life is, of course, unfortunate. No serious person ignores these deaths or wants them to be “dismissed” as unimportant.* Yet two related realities loom that too many people ignored since early 2020.

The first *of these realities is that a disease that overwhelmingly reserves most of its dangers for the elderly should be recognized as such, especially by policymakers and people in the media. *But this reality was played down and even ignored, while others who acknowledged this reality denied its relevance. Even now many people act – and seem to believe – that Covid’s risks are general. The mania for closing schools, masking children, and mandating vaccination very much reflect, I think, the public’s continuing failure to understand that Covid poses little risk to the bulk of the population, and virtually no risk at all to children and young adults.

The fact that the typical elderly person killed by Covid had, at the time of his or her death, an expected life span of more than a few weeks is true enough, but it doesn’t begin to nullify the relevance of the reality that the great bulk of Covid’s dangers are reserved for the elderly.

The second *of these realities is that the failure to recognize and act on the distinct age profile of Covid’s effects means that the response to Covid was not only disproportionate to the danger posed by the SARS-Cov-2 pathogen to the general population, *but likely harmful to the vulnerable population.

Resources are scarce. By spending these resources indiscriminately across the entire population, these resources were not concentrated – “Focused” (as the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration wisely recommended) – on where they would have the greatest positive benefits.*

The following analogy (like any other analogy) isn’t perfect, but it conveys an important truth. Suppose that category 5 hurricane Mortimer devastates New Orleans. If so, the appropriate response is to concentrate emergency supplies on that city. A wholly inappropriate response would be to declare as a disaster area the entire United States and send emergency supplies indiscriminately across the country. If the latter course were taken, the toll of death and destruction from Mortimer in New Orleans would wind up being worse than if the emergency response and supplies were focused on that city.

*Also scarce are human attention and fellow-feeling. And so just as calamitously as the failure to focus material resources on the vulnerable, by treating Covid as if everyone is at equal risk of suffering from it, human attention and fellow-feeling were spread too thinly. A mother who believes that her fifteen-year-old son and her 45-year-old husband – and she herself – are as likely to die from Covid as are her 75-year-old parents will not concentrate as much of her loving attention and concern on her parents as she would were she aware that she, her husband, and her son are at much less risk of suffering from Covid than are her parents.

No one will ever be able to say for sure if – and if so, how many – lives were failed to be saved by the indiscriminate, unfocused response to Covid (as opposed to the focused response recommended by the Great Barrington Declaration – and by many public-health experts prior to 2020). But I can’t believe that this number is small.*


----------



## crush

Hi, my name is Crispr.  I'm here to edit your DNA.  Scientist call CRISPR, "the Holy Grail" of DNA editing. Yes, CRISPR will make sure to cut out your DNA and add some CRISPR to it.  This is insane!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> The left is the left, the right are the right (radicals out on an island trying to lure others in) and liberals are the new conservatives (the vast middle). Don’t believe the hypemeisters.


Mandates are the hype.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Hi, my name is Crispr.  I'm here to edit your DNA.  Scientist call CRISPR, "the Holy Grail" of DNA editing. Yes, CRISPR will make sure to cut out your DNA and add some CRISPR to it.  This is insane!!!


Wonder why You Tube turned off the comments and there are no "dislikes".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

The use of cloth facemasks in community settings has become an accepted public policy response to decrease disease transmission during the COVID-19 pandemic. Yet evidence of facemask efficacy is based primarily on observational studies that are subject to confounding and on mechanistic studies that rely on surrogate endpoints (such as droplet dispersion) as proxies for disease transmission. The available clinical evidence of facemask efficacy is of low quality and the best available clinical evidence has mostly failed to show efficacy, with fourteen of sixteen identified randomized controlled trials comparing face masks to no mask controls failing to find statistically significant benefit in the intent‐to‐treat populations. Of sixteen quantitative meta‐analyses, eight were equivocal or critical as to whether evidence supports a public recommendation of masks, and the remaining eight supported a public mask intervention on limited evidence primarily on the basis of the precautionary principle. Although weak evidence should not preclude precautionary actions in the face of unprecedented events such as the COVID-19 pandemic, ethical principles require that the strength of the evidence and best estimates of amount of benefit be truthfully communicated to the public.--Prassad & Darrow


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463598693190357001


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Wonder why You Tube turned off the comments and there are no "dislikes".


From Gate's Notes:  Some scientists are not treating the germline as a red line. As Isaacson covers with nuance, three years ago a* Chinese researcher* named *He Jiankui* *used CRISPR* to *edit the genomes of human embryos* and* then implanted these embryos in women who consented to carrying them to term. Two babies*, named* Nana and Lulu,* have now been born from those embryos. If Nana and Lulu someday have babies of their own, their babies will inherit the genetic modifications Nana and Lulu received. The Chinese researcher’s intentions were good—helping HIV-positive couples give birth to children who had a gene that would confer resistance to infection with HIV—but he disregarded scientific guardrails established by Chinese and American authorities.


----------



## crush

More from Gate's Notes about CRISPR:  that’s super important, *because the ethics of CRISPR’s use are not clear. *
As she says to Isaacson, “If you think we face inequalities now, *imagine what it would be like if society became genetically tiered along economic lines and we transcribed our financial inequality into our genetic code.”*

As with* artificial intelligence*, facial recognition, and other digital technologies, the public should play an engaged role in drawing the ethical lines


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Having a little paper on the wall saying you made it through classes isn’t necessarily an indicator of intelligence.


And you have a Degree in ?


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> 148 last I tested


Cheating on a 20 question internet " IQ " test and you brag about it ?
OMG.


----------



## thirteenknots

John Fleck: Sheffield United midfielder 'conscious' when taken to hospital after collapse at Reading
					

The Sheffield United midfielder received urgent medical care on the pitch before being taken to hospital; the 30-year-old was on his feet and using an oxygen mask before being stretchered off, with play halted for almost 11 minutes against Reading




					t.co


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Help!!!
> 
> View attachment 12146
> 
> Santa Cruz County in California issued a mask mandate for all indoor settings, including private homes, ahead of the holiday season.
> 
> The mandate went into effect at 11:59 p.m. on November 21 and requires “all individuals to wear a face covering when indoors regardless of vaccination status.”
> 
> “Unfortunately, *a potential winter surge appears *to be a significant threat to the health and safety of our community,” said Santa Cruz County Health Officer Dr. Gail Newel in the announcement. “As we look forward to spending time with those we love during the holidays, it is important to protect vulnerable friends and family members by wearing a mask indoors.


I checked in on this insane mandate , and yes it does require masking at your private residence regardless of your vaccination status 



exceptions: if you are alone or with members of your own househould



3. Requirement to Wear Face Coverings Indoors.
a. Regardless of vaccination status, all persons must wear face coverings at all times when
indoors except:
i. in their own residence or another private setting alone or with members of their household; or
ii. working in a closed room or office alone or with members of their household; or
iii. when they are actively performing an activity that cannot be done while wearing a face covering (e.g., actively eating or drinking, swimming or showering in a fitness facility, or obtaining a medical or cosmetic service requiring removal of a face covering); or
iv. as specifically exempted from use of face coverings under the guidance of CDPH at https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/guidance-for- face-coverings.aspx (e.g., to communicate with someone who is hearing impaired or where a face covering poses a safety risk).
For clarity, this Order does not prohibit any otherwise lawful activity but instead requires the use of face coverings indoors to the maximum


----------



## Brav520

I’m still waiting on the evidence that mask mandates are effective . Not masking , but actual mandates on masking 

is there evidence mask mandates work?


----------



## Brav520

Santa Cruz is full of insane people , so they probably enjoy being the insanity the local government imposes on them


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> I checked in on this insane mandate , and yes it does require masking at your private residence regardless of your vaccination status
> 
> 
> 
> exceptions: if you are alone or with members of your own househould
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Requirement to Wear Face Coverings Indoors.
> a. Regardless of vaccination status, all persons must wear face coverings at all times when
> indoors except:
> i. in their own residence or another private setting alone or with members of their household; or
> ii. working in a closed room or office alone or with members of their household; or
> iii. when they are actively performing an activity that cannot be done while wearing a face covering (e.g., actively eating or drinking, swimming or showering in a fitness facility, or obtaining a medical or cosmetic service requiring removal of a face covering); or
> iv. as specifically exempted from use of face coverings under the guidance of CDPH at https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/guidance-for- face-coverings.aspx (e.g., to communicate with someone who is hearing impaired or where a face covering poses a safety risk).
> For clarity, this Order does not prohibit any otherwise lawful activity but instead requires the use of face coverings indoors to the maximum


My gosh, this is truly insane.  Talk about looking into your neighbors business.  This takes Neighborhood Watch to a a whole new level.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> More from Gate's Notes about CRISPR:  that’s super important, *because the ethics of CRISPR’s use are not clear. *
> As she says to Isaacson, “If you think we face inequalities now, *imagine what it would be like if society became genetically tiered along economic lines and we transcribed our financial inequality into our genetic code.”*
> 
> As with* artificial intelligence*, facial recognition, and other digital technologies, the public should play an engaged role in drawing the ethical lines


Well, I  stopped by to say happy T-giving all the players in this weird little game.

But, since I'm here:
1) Jianku stepped over a line.  The embryo shit was and is unethical.
2) CRISPR  will be practically limited to rare genetic disorders where you can say this mutation causes this disease.  Or cancers like leukemias where there is a single predominant mutation driving the cancer.  Pull out the stem cells, edit them, propagate in vitro and check for any screw ups based on editing.  Stick them back in.  That's not go-germline so different.  Common diseases with a genetic risk components (diabetes, heart disease, etc) are too polygenic.  Will never be actionable by CRISPR.
3) From above, "the babies will inherit the alterations".  Well, its 50/50.  Dad says don't forget about me. 
4)  *imagine what it would be like if society became genetically tiered along economic lines.  *Just drop out the "genetically" and we be already there, right, and always have been. Pay to play.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> I’m still waiting on the evidence that mask mandates are effective . Not masking , but actual mandates on masking
> 
> is there evidence mask mandates work?


I was at Stater Bro this morning and I must share what took place.  This heavy heavy set lady was in front of me at the checker stand.  She was wearing a really big pink mask that covered most of her face.  She had groceries sitting on top where kids sit and inside her cart.  The checker was waiting for the lady to get the rest of her unhealthy food from inside the cart but she could not reach her items, I kid you not.  She stood there and told the checker to come around and use her scanner because she can;t reach her grub.  I gave her that look to offer to try and help but she saw me with no mask and told me to back off.  Nice checker came around and did all the work for her.  We will go from illness to wellness soon and I mean very soon


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> My gosh, this is truly insane.  Talk about looking into your neighbors business.  This takes Neighborhood Watch to a a whole new level.


unrelated , I was reading an article this week about San Francisco residents being upset about the rise in burglaries , and how the city isn’t doing anything about it

I just sit back and laugh, you idiots voted these people in office ( overwhelmingly).  I for one  am happy to see democracy in action

give the people what they voted for give it to them good and hard


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I was at Stater Bro this morning and I must share what took place.  This heavy heavy set lady was in front of me at the checker stand.  She was wearing a really big pink mask that covered most of her face.  She had groceries sitting on top where kids sit and inside her cart.  The checker was waiting for the lady to get the rest of her unhealthy food from inside the cart but she could not reach her items, I kid you not.  She stood there and told the checker to come around and use her scanner because she can;t reach her grub.  I gave her that look to offer to try and help but she saw me with no mask and told me to back off.  Nice checker came around and did all the work for her.  We will go from illness to wellness soon and I mean very soon


Yeah , look at the Governor of Illinois , he is a fat motherfucker. He is vaccinated , I’m sure boostered , and wears a mask

there are many people in this country that would argue he cares about his Heath because of his actions on Covid , ignoring that he is morbidly obese

I also like when out of shape fat ass sports media members lecture NBA players about health. That’s always a good laugh


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Yeah , look at the Governor of Illinois , he is a fat motherfucker. He is vaccinated , I’m sure boostered , and wears a mask
> 
> there are many people in this country that would argue he cares about his Heath because of his actions on Covid , ignoring that he is morbidly obese
> 
> I also like when out of shape fat ass sports media members lecture NBA players about health. That’s always a good laugh


That's why its so hard to take all this on chin and then turn the other cheek.  My pal who votes left and has a stiff neck from looking only left his whole life, is now starting to loosen up and look right.  He now see's the truth and he's Independent voter and wants nothing to do with anything D related.  He actually told me he's always been this way.  Yeah right, right?


----------



## crush

She Loves Her SHOTS!
					

THNX FOR WATCHING  ~LIKE~SHARE~SUBSCRIBE~  ***LINKS*** https://www.paypal.me/joeysievert https://www.patreon.com/user?u=9434512 https://d.tube/#!/c/joeysievert https://www.bitchute.com/channel/t0RAZBM0rVGQ/ http://www.freedomtube.social/cmpgm-killum…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## thirteenknots

thirteenknots said:


> John Fleck: Sheffield United midfielder 'conscious' when taken to hospital after collapse at Reading
> 
> 
> The Sheffield United midfielder received urgent medical care on the pitch before being taken to hospital; the 30-year-old was on his feet and using an oxygen mask before being stretchered off, with play halted for almost 11 minutes against Reading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> t.co


Note: From a post on Professional Soccer Players collapsing on the field and The Covid-19 Experimental Jab.

" The expensive soccer players like aguero are worth millions. When they transfer for their million a week salaries, they undergo the most rigorous medical examinations possible, aerobic, musculature, skeletal, stamina etc in order to safeguard the investment interests of their clubs.

For this to hit soccer players who must run between 7-10 miles per 90 minute game is well beyond belief of coincidence.

The almost certain commonality is the injections.

Otherwise, 150 million football players at every level in every club, from juniors, to under 16's, under 18's, sunday leagues, professional level, over 40's and golden oldies are at risk, as is every sportsman in any sport that needs a fully functioning heart and circulatory system "


----------



## thirteenknots

3 x FOOTBALLERS COLLAPSE x In 3 DAYS / Hugo Talks #lockdown – Hugo Talks 


This is going to affect the whole planet.

Everywhere on the planet but the USA is Soccer a 
mainstay in everyday citizens lives. When multi-million
dollar players start dropping on the pitch like flies will the World
take notice that a hoax has been pulled on the World as a whole.
You cannot reverse a phvck up like this !


----------



## Brav520

^^^
Those questions are not allowed to be asked

get vaxxed, get your boosters , stop asking questions about potential side effects of them

do you not care about grandma


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Hi, my name is Crispr.  I'm here to edit your DNA.  Scientist call CRISPR, "the Holy Grail" of DNA editing. Yes, CRISPR will make sure to cut out your DNA and add some CRISPR to it.  This is insane!!!


No matter how aggressive and cocksure both the entrepreneurs of moral panic in the media and their acolytes in the general population might at first glance appear to be, the main driver of their actions is always the spirit of defeat, that is, the consciousness of having lost the level of social control that they thought was their perpetual inheritance. 

When dominant social elites encounter phenomena that not only disturb them, but do not even fit minimally within the phenomenological frameworks about “reality” they have engineered for themselves and others, they invariably respond with coercion, and if that does not work, eventually with violence.—Thomas Harrington


----------



## crush

Damn, woke this morning to Fox and friend CNN.coms sounding this out of nowhere virus flu bug B.1.1.529 variant alarm big time this morning. The WHO is currently in their ER huddle drawing up their next play to ruin our lives.  FEAR is their weapon.  Fence sitter, where are you..........Let's see what they throw at us next.  Stocks take a huge hit btw.  This one is 10x worse then Rona.  Not sure if it's an evil uncle or a distant cousin but it's after the kids and 10x worse, according to the "experts."  

*'Heavily mutated' COVID-19 variant described as 'HORRIFIC,' sparks emergency WHO meeting

*

*Joe Phaahla, South Africa’s minister of health, identified the new variant as B.1.1.529, and said it seems highly contagious among young people. *



U.K. Health Secretary Sajid Javid said there were concerns the new variant "may be more transmissible" than the dominant delta strain, and* "the vaccines that we currently have may be less effective" *against it.


----------



## crush

I hear the new name of the virus will be Nu.  It will be numbers & symbols that will finally wake some of you up.


----------



## crush

I was basically told this from old pal of mine WHO obeys those WHO are over him because...


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Damn, woke this morning to Fox and friend CNN.coms sounding this out of nowhere virus flu bug B.1.1.529 variant alarm big time this morning. The WHO is currently in their ER huddle drawing up their next play to ruin our lives.  FEAR is their weapon.  Fence sitter, where are you..........Let's see what they throw at us next.  Stocks take a huge hit btw.  This one is 10x worse then Rona.  Not sure if it's an evil uncle or a distant cousin but it's after the kids and 10x worse, according to the "experts."
> 
> *'Heavily mutated' COVID-19 variant described as 'HORRIFIC,' sparks emergency WHO meeting
> 
> View attachment 12155*
> 
> *Joe Phaahla, South Africa’s minister of health, identified the new variant as B.1.1.529, and said it seems highly contagious among young people. *
> 
> View attachment 12154
> 
> U.K. Health Secretary Sajid Javid said there were concerns the new variant "may be more transmissible" than the dominant delta strain, and* "the vaccines that we currently have may be less effective" *against it.
> 
> View attachment 12153


A few things about the nu:

1. I love that it’s referred to as the nu.  Thats just perfect
2. We really don’t know how transmissible the thing is to outcompete the delta. Part of the equation is we really don’t know how much natural immunity there is in South Africa and botswana
3. It was always going to happen. Herd immunity more likely than not is a chimera for a respiratory virus. 
4.The reason they are worried is because of the mutations to the spike protein. It means these fancy mRNA vaccines the us in particular relied upon may be worthless in stopping transmissions. They’ll still work somewhat for severity since part of the problem is how novel the thing is to our immune systems. That’s also why they are more optimistic about the az vaccine. The us maybe be up s creek for its failure to approve az, novovax and a more effective j&j protocol. Wouldn’t be surprised if the thing takes off if they try to force people to take one of these others. shot 4 would be in your future
5. The chatter so far has been the pills will likely still be effective. Question remains why these are still being slow walked.
6. Early indications indicate too natural immunity may hold up well but there’s not enough data to conclusively say. The only thing we know relatively clear is the current mRNA shots should be left effective which is why the world is panicking (isn’t the Russian vaccine more traditional…that would just be perfect)
7. If the nu does break out I don’t think society can take the renewed panic.  So many people are already at a breaking point. The mental health crisis in kids is particularly acute and the kids don’t do well with so many therapists still in remote. The economy is teetering on a razors edge and won’t do well with another series of port closures border restrictions and factory shut downs. It’s been 2 years and with a renewed crisis mode you’d be looking at a minimum of 4 (that means btw we aren’t even at the half way mark). And of course the media has already jumped on the panic porn

in any case that’s my early take. Shut off the media. Ignore it for a week. We dont really know enough yet beyond if this variant becomes widespread the mRNA vaccines won’t stop it.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> A few things about the nu:
> 
> 1. I love that it’s referred to as the nu.  Thats just perfect
> 2. We really don’t know how transmissible the thing is to outcompete the delta. Part of the equation is we really don’t know how much natural immunity there is in South Africa and botswana
> 3. It was always going to happen. Herd immunity more likely than not is a chimera for a respiratory virus.
> 4.The reason they are worried is because of the mutations to the spike protein. It means these fancy mRNA vaccines the us in particular relied upon may be worthless in stopping transmissions. They’ll still work somewhat for severity since part of the problem is how novel the thing is to our immune systems. That’s also why they are more optimistic about the az vaccine. The us maybe be up s creek for its failure to approve az, novovax and a more effective j&j protocol. Wouldn’t be surprised if the thing takes off if they try to force people to take one of these others. shot 4 would be in your future
> 5. The chatter so far has been the pills will likely still be effective. Question remains why these are still being slow walked.
> 6. Early indications indicate too natural immunity may hold up well but there’s not enough data to conclusively say. The only thing we know relatively clear is the current mRNA shots should be left effective which is why the world is panicking (isn’t the Russian vaccine more traditional…that would just be perfect)
> 7. If the nu does break out I don’t think society can take the renewed panic.  So many people are already at a breaking point. The mental health crisis in kids is particularly acute and the kids don’t do well with so many therapists still in remote. The economy is teetering on a razors edge and won’t do well with another series of port closures border restrictions and factory shut downs. It’s been 2 years and with a renewed crisis mode you’d be looking at a minimum of 4 (that means btw we aren’t even at the half way mark). And of course the media has already jumped on the panic porn
> 
> in any case that’s my early take. Shut off the media. Ignore it for a week. We dont really know enough yet beyond if this variant becomes widespread the mRNA vaccines won’t stop it.


Oh 8.  It would be absolutely hilarious if South Park got it right again.  Between that and the Simpson it should tell us something about the personality of whoever is designing our simulation.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Oh 8.  It would be absolutely hilarious if South Park got it right again.  Between that and the Simpson it should tell us something about the personality of whoever is designing our simulation.


9 monoclonal antibodies.  Us is up a creek here too. Eli Lilly was already not holding up well against the delta. Regeneron should also not hold up.  Az should hold up better…but that hasn’t been approved in the United States and we don’t have any.  Also the rationale why some are saying there is natural immunity escape…but this neglects that natural immunity deals with a whole host of mechanisms including T cells.


----------



## crush

#9 We were so brainwashed by the "Tel U R Vision" for your life, that we all need to be reprogrammed.  I was telling my pal about how hard it's been for my 17 year old dd the last few years.  He had no empathy and basically told me she should just get the jab if she loves soccer so much.  I went full rebuke on him and then he said, "Oh, I got a call, I'll call you back." I told him to ask for Blue Boy when he calls back as I hold my breath waiting for the call back.  Never called me back and I'm not holding back.  I'll debate any asshole(s) on how their bullshit is ruining the lives of kids and others because of their pure selfishness.  LeSnitch got two girls kicked out of NBA game.


----------



## crush

"The new variant news has brought with it a sell first and ask questions later mentality," said Ryan Detrick, chief market strategist for LPL Financial.


----------



## crush

Omicron


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> "The new variant news has brought with it a sell first and ask questions later mentality," said Ryan Detrick, chief market strategist for LPL Financial.




The World is slowly waking up to the MASSIVE Crime that has been 
foisted upon them by ....YES THE USA and CHINA.
The Democrats and Rinos ( A whole shitload of so-called Republicans ) 
so wanted the successful Trump economic process to go away that 
they Sold their SOULS to the Devil Himself and embraced 
an evil plan that included depopulation as a rider to accomplish their goal.
This isn't nonsense, it is very obvious now that the NWO Agenda that 
yes deeply deeply involves Dr Anthony Fauci was sold
to the evil United States Politicians as a tool to accomplish their scheme.
Go back and witness what the underlying Goal of Event201 was that was held
on October 18, 2019 in New York, New York and hosted by John Hopkins
Center for " Health Security " - The World Economic Forum and the Bill and
Melinda Gates Foundation. 

Look up the SPARS Pandemic 2025 - 2028 " Prediction " from the very same
John Hopkins Center for Health Security/Dr Anthony Fauci and their involvement.
These sickos telegraph what they are going to do, they do not care anymore.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> "The new variant news has brought with it a sell first and ask questions later mentality," said Ryan Detrick, chief market strategist for LPL Financial.


The " Nu " variant is being hyped to draw attention away from the Crimes they
have committed. It is a natural process of Viruses to mutate, with each mutation the
Virus is reduced, but transmits a little more easy. It just wants to survive, it's that
simple. The only way a Newer and Deadlier Manmade Virus will come about is by
releasing it. YES, RELEASING IT !


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Omicron COVID-19 variant: Pfizer, BioNTech say *vaccine could be reworked in 100 days* to counter strain
Johnson & Johnson said it was also testing the effectiveness of its vaccine against the variant

In an emailed statement to FOX Business, Pfizer said the vaccine-makers are *"remaining vigilant"* and *"constantly conducting surveillance* efforts focused on monitoring for emerging variants that potentially *escape *protection from our vaccine."

"*As always*, we will continue to *follow the science* as we examine the best approaches to protecting people against COVID-19," Pfizer wrote. *"In the event that vaccine-escape *variant emerges, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be able to *develop* and produce a *tailor-made vaccine* against that variant in approximately *100 days,* subject to regulatory approval."


----------



## Bruddah IZ

No matter how aggressive and cocksure both the entrepreneurs of moral panic in the media and their acolytes in the general population might at first glance appear to be, the main driver of their actions is always the spirit of defeat, *that is, the consciousness of having lost the level of social control that they thought was their perpetual inheritance.

When dominant social elites encounter phenomena that not only disturb them, but do not even fit minimally within the phenomenological frameworks about “reality” they have engineered for themselves and others, they invariably respond with coercion, and if that does not work, eventually with violence*.—Thomas Harrington


----------



## met61

...you're being played.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It’s been 2 years and with a renewed crisis mode you’d be looking at a minimum of 4 (that means btw we aren’t even at the half way mark). And of course the media has already jumped on the panic porn


Well, looks more time to lose a bit more weight down and increase my aerobic fitness. Still not sure why this isn't emphasized more. It would be interesting to see the hospitalization and mortality rate for different vaccination "statuses" versus different obesity levels for otherwise comparable populations. I'd bet that improving fitness is not as easily defeated by variants as specific vaccines. 









						Obesity And Covid Death Rate Closely Linked In New Study
					

Analysis of Covid-19 mortality data found obesity to be the second greatest predictor of hospitalization and high risk of death after age.




					www.forbes.com
				




"
While “age has been the predominant focus of analysis of risks of hospitalization and death to date” the summary points out “ this report shows for the first time that overweight populations come a close second.”
"


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Omicron


Guess they jumped over xi. I wonder why???

the cool thing about omicron is that it’s an anagram for moronic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, looks more time to lose a bit more weight down and increase my aerobic fitness. Still not sure why this isn't emphasized more. It would be interesting to see the hospitalization and mortality rate for different vaccination "statuses" versus different obesity levels for otherwise comparable populations. I'd bet that improving fitness is not as easily defeated by variants as specific vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obesity And Covid Death Rate Closely Linked In New Study
> 
> 
> Analysis of Covid-19 mortality data found obesity to be the second greatest predictor of hospitalization and high risk of death after age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> While “age has been the predominant focus of analysis of risks of hospitalization and death to date” the summary points out “ this report shows for the first time that overweight populations come a close second.”
> "


. . . and to think at first they found that males that smoked were more at risk. What a bunch of idiots! Lol!


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, looks more time to lose a bit more weight down and increase my aerobic fitness. Still not sure why this isn't emphasized more. It would be interesting to see the hospitalization and mortality rate for different vaccination "statuses" versus different obesity levels for otherwise comparable populations. I'd bet that improving fitness is not as easily defeated by variants as specific vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obesity And Covid Death Rate Closely Linked In New Study
> 
> 
> Analysis of Covid-19 mortality data found obesity to be the second greatest predictor of hospitalization and high risk of death after age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> While “age has been the predominant focus of analysis of risks of hospitalization and death to date” the summary points out “ this report shows for the first time that overweight populations come a close second.”
> "


I've been sounding the alarm for all of you for a long time.  Eat healthy and stop drinking booze and protect your kids and you all will win.  This new moronic demon virus that is running wild in South Africa is going to fly over here soon so you best be mentally and physically ready to deal with all the new infected morons in our country.  Morons that cheat and lie for a living are sick morons.  These assholes are trying to destroy our country, our love for another.  And any freedom you thought you had is only freedom when you obey these monsters.


----------



## crush

I have a prediction and a question.  I predict that Omicron will force people to obey the scientist out of South Africa and to be fully jabbed, you need to be jabbed four times.  Like I said a million times, how many viruses, pandemics and shots will the morons take before they finally wake up?  I'm sorry, but if any of you believe in this shit, well then, you're a dumb dumb and a moron.  Yes, it's true some of the smartest elitist roamed this forum back in the day calling me a moron all the time, calling me Uncle Rico all for speaking out against the abuse of 12 and 13 year old girls all the way to the Pros.  Soccer should be loved by all, not controlled by a few selfish assholes who took over the sport so they can make money off of our kids hard work.  So sad.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

*Fauci: Not Clear If New COVID-19 Strain Can Evade Vaccines*
BY JACK PHILLIPS

November 26, 2021 Updated: November 27, 2021

White House COVID-19 adviser Anthony Fauci said U.S. scientists and other researchers are studying whether a newly discovered CCP virus variant can evade common vaccines, although he stressed that it’s not clear whether the new strain is currently spreading in the United States.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Fauci: Not Clear If New COVID-19 Strain Can Evade Vaccines*
> *researchers are studying whether a newly discovered CCP virus variant can evade common vaccines*,


In Sales Class 101, this called the "planting the seed for next virus."  I would always told my Yellow Page customers after they signed up that to expect a price increase next year.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

On October 27, 2021

The FDA Vaccines and Related Biological Products AdvisoryCommittee voted 17 to 0 with one abstention to recommend COVID vaccination
for children ages 5-11.

Committee Member Eric Rubin stated:

"We're never going to learn about how safe this vaccine is unless we start giving it."

The alarm has been sounded...


----------



## crush

Calling all Fence Sitters and sleeping lazy lions.  Wake the fuck up you guys and get off your fucking comfort perch fence and speak up for what is right.  This bullshit is not right and I will take a stand.  I truly have nothing to lose you guys and that's why I speak as a voice for those WHO are compromised.  I was never bought like so many.  I was not bribed like many and because I couldn't be bought or bribed, I couldnt be blackmailed.  Do you all now see how this works?  When your bought, bribed and blackmailed, you will be taught and forced to obey the new way; how to Build back better as a Marxist.  This is not even communism.  This is obey and STFU or we will ruin you.  Happy TGIFS!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

On October 6, 2021 The New York Times published an article that grossly overstated Covid hospitalizations among children by citing a figure of nearly 900,000. The news caught on like wildfire, giving fuel to the fire of fear-stoking media.  This was later corrected to a more accurate 63,000. When a publication claims to be the nation's paper of record yet misses the target so spectacularly, it is fair to question whether it can be
trusted at all.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> On October 6, 2021 The New York Times published an article that grossly overstated Covid hospitalizations among children by citing a figure of nearly 900,000. The news caught on like wildfire, giving fuel to the fire of fear-stoking media.  This was later corrected to a more accurate 63,000. When a publication claims to be the nation's paper of record yet misses the target so spectacularly, it is fair to question whether it can be
> trusted at all.


Fear Bate!!!


----------



## crush

This just in:  108 FIFA soccer players and coaches have died in the last 6 months.  These stud soccer players getting attacked at the heart is deadly.  Trust me folks.  These studs were tested with every test out there before they sign their contracts.  This is way too many deaths in 6 months.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

So, What Are The Facts?

The CDC reports 94 deaths "with" or "involving" Covid among the 5-11 age group since January of 2020. The choice of the words "with" and "involving" is theirs - they do not say "from."

A review of pediatric deaths has shown an 86% rate of co-morbidities such as obesity, developmental and neurological conditions.  In nations that carefully quantify deaths "with" Covid vs. deaths "from" Covid, child mortality is extremely low. The UK, for example, has 60 million people, and 30 child deaths "from"  Covid.  Hospitalizations are negligible within this age group, and reports of a spike in hospitalizations were greatly exaggerated. The Defender explains it this way:

"The reason CDC could claim steep increases in pediatric
hospitalizations was because even a handful of additional
hospitalizations caused a marked increase in the rate, and because
it included hospitalizations in which COVID was an incidental
finding." - The Defender​


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464328157369044992


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> So, What Are The Facts?
> 
> The CDC reports 94 deaths "with" or "involving" Covid among the 5-11 age group since January of 2020. The choice of the words "with" and "involving" is theirs - they do not say "from."
> 
> A review of pediatric deaths has shown an 86% rate of co-morbidities such as obesity, developmental and neurological conditions.  In nations that carefully quantify deaths "with" Covid vs. deaths "from" Covid, child mortality is extremely low. The UK, for example, has 60 million people, and 30 child deaths "from"  Covid.  Hospitalizations are negligible within this age group, and reports of a spike in hospitalizations were greatly exaggerated. The Defender explains it this way:
> 
> "The reason CDC could claim steep increases in pediatric
> hospitalizations was because even a handful of additional
> hospitalizations caused a marked increase in the rate, and because
> it included hospitalizations in which COVID was an incidental
> finding." - The Defender​


This is called:  Spin


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Straight from the horses mouth.  Lied about masks, lied about this and that and I'm shocked folks obey this dude's mandates that are NOT A LAW.


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said that it is *possible* that the Omicron Covid-19 variant is *already in the United States but has yet to be detected.*



> *“I would not be surprised* ((and neither will anyone else with a brain)) if it is, we have not detected it yet, but when you have a virus that is showing this degree of transmissibility and you're having travel-related cases they've noted in other places already, when you have a virus like this, *it almost invariably is going to go all over,” Fauci told NBC Saturday.*


This Dark Winter is going to be 10x worse then last years Dark Winter.  The closer we get to Monday's big trial, the worse some of these monsters act.  Demons are very real and they live in people's souls.  It's true and I'm not making this up.  We know a few demons entered a few of these avatars.  Let's see if the demon of fear and death come back.  I'm waiting for them to try and debate me again without ignoring me.  We have to rid ourselves of cheating and lying and make a new earth that is led by Christ.  Christ=Forgiveness, mercy, love, kindness, peace and joy to all the world. No more Cain and his leader Lucifer.  Imagine all the people living for today without all the cheaters, killers, rapist, liars, psychopaths, thieves and the like.  No more.  Gonzo and no more ever again.  Imagine the new earth everyone.  No  more death, no more pain, no more disease, no more hate, just one big magnet of love.  If you love, you will be drawn to God's magnet.  If you hate first before asking a question or two, well then you will be with hate 4ever.  The magnet does not work with hate.  I know I'm rambling again but I want all humans to capitualte and stand for whatever is true, no matter where the truth is.  Stop putting party before country.  It's country first and then your group.  If your group is cheating, then you better leave the group.  You are WHO you hang with so be careful WHO you choose to obey life with.


----------



## crush

Follow the news.  This just in folks: 
*2 cases of Omicron variant detected in the UK, health secretary says*

Obey or else!!!

*New York Gov. Kathy Hochul issues state of emergency in response to omicron variant*


----------



## crush

Javid said Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia and Angola would be added to the UK’s travel red list, effective from 4 a.m. Sunday.

*“If you have returned from there in the last 10 days you must isolate and get PCR tests,*” his tweet said.

A country being on the “red list” means that UK residents, as well as British and Irish nationals arriving home from that red list point of departure, must undergo a *10-day hotel quarantine at their own expense.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Show me a 55 million year old respiratory virus that continuously produces variants and I'll show you planet approaching a population of 8 billion.


----------



## crush

CNN Reports, you decide.....

*Omicron concerns should spur millions of unvaccinated Americans to get their Covid shots, experts say*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

A virus that was never isolated and thus never proven to exist.
A virus so dangerous it killed the ability to think.  It killed logic
and it killed common sense.  It helped politics crush science.  it
swallowed societies like an avalanche of insanity.  

Look at this dudes eyes as he talks. Remind you of anyone(s) on here?









						Michael Gunner, Australian Northern territories Chief Minister on those who oppose Vaxx mandates
					

[mirrored]   All credit to “VladTepesBlog” - Original video: http://bitly.ws/jLeF Bitchute-Channel: http://bitly.ws/jHnU  ✅ It's FAST, FREE AND PRIVATE! Use the BRAVE browser for 30 days, and they will support my channel with a bonus. https://brav…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Attention all Fence Sitters, Sheeples, Lazy & Fat Lions and Wimps, listen up you guys.  The men in this country have been brainwashed and or sleeping in denial.  I think we can ALL say today, "We've been played."  How does it feel to join the club of being played by those who cheat and pay to play with their souls?  My only advice for you now is to watch out for the Judas Goats.


----------



## crush

This lady is HOT!!!  *H*onest,* O*pen and* T*ransparent.  Basically, back off assholes because YOU are ruining individual rights and causing great harm to our country.  YOU have woken the sleeping Giant ((well, some and some are still sleeping.  That's where crush comes in.  I poke assholes and give it back to them and then I try and poke good and honest folks who are sitting this out on their fence.  I won't stop until I get people on the right side. TGIFS!









						Red.Pill.Pharmacist ☆☆☆
					

Winsome when asked if she is vaccinated.




					t.me


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This dude out of the UK just said this about Omicron: "It does appear the Omicron spreads very rapidly and *can be spread between people who are double vaccinated."*  Let me repeat, *"can be spread between people who are double jabbed." * If you read the headlines this morning, the same cheats are now saying basically this is worse then the Rona and the Delta combined.  Their going to ask you all to bend over this time and take another one for the team of liars.  I am not a Judas Goat. I am a human being trying to wake folks up.  Be careful my fellow Americans.  The storm is here and the trial starts tomorrow.


----------



## crush

Take this with a grain of salt, a shot of fav booze and then take it to the bank.  

The jabs and the boosters everyone has in their blood will not help them this new variant called Omicron.  Another round coming soon.  I spoke to my neighbor pal at Bucks this morning and I asked if he had heard about the news out of South Africa.  He said, "yes" and I said, "Well, thoughts?"  I asked because he and I debate this crap all the time.  He's like NoCaldad and super trustworthy of whatever county health officials say to do.  He said he will get shot as many times as they say.  He literality told me he will just get shots all the time until he dies.


----------



## crush




----------



## Mile High Dad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464757182923161608
Definitely need to lockdown again and get more and more boosters. Or some vicks and a fresh box of Kleenex.


----------



## crush




----------



## Mile High Dad

Dr. Angelique Coetzee, a board member of the South African Medical Association, first noticed otherwise healthy patients demonstrating unusual symptoms on Nov. 18. 

"It presents mild disease with symptoms being sore muscles and tiredness for a day or two not feeling well," Coetzee explained. "So far, we have detected that those infected do not suffer the loss of taste or smell. They might have a slight cough. There are no prominent symptoms. Of those infected some are currently being treated at home."


----------



## crush

Mile High Dad said:


> Dr. Angelique Coetzee, a board member of the South African Medical Association, first noticed otherwise healthy patients demonstrating unusual symptoms on Nov. 18.
> 
> "It presents mild disease with symptoms being sore muscles and tiredness for a day or two not feeling well," Coetzee explained. "So far, we have detected that those infected do not suffer the loss of taste or smell. They might have a slight cough. There are no prominent symptoms. Of those infected some are currently being treated at home."











						il Presidento's new ringtone...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Brav520

What a quote , you can”t criticize the Lord Tony


Lawmakers like Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz have called for Dr. Fauci to step down and be prosecuted over the course of COVID-19. Fauci scoffs at such threats, calling it "noise." 

"They're really criticizing science because I represent science. That's dangerous."


----------



## crush

*I am Science!!*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> What a quote , you can”t criticize the Lord Tony
> 
> 
> Lawmakers like Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz have called for Dr. Fauci to step down and be prosecuted over the course of COVID-19. Fauci scoffs at such threats, calling it "noise."
> 
> "They're really criticizing science because I represent science. That's dangerous."


Yes, yes what a horribly unhinged statement, oh my! . . . come down from the chair and settle down. Jeez you people are sensitive.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, yes what a horribly unhinged statement, oh my! . . . come down from the chair and settle down. Jeez you people are sensitive.


You whiny little bitch.  Hit the ignore button like you always do.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

It's worth pointing out that pre-2020 pandemic planning favored research on vaccines and therapeutics, discouraged harsh NPIs, and urged tamping down rather than inflaming panic. But we threw all that out in March 2020. The plans were right, and the panic reaction was wrong.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, yes what a horribly unhinged statement, oh my! . . . come down from the chair and settle down. Jeez you people are sensitive.


Yes government yes Dr Fauci give me more give me more

you are a real life NPC  meme


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> Yes government yes Dr Fauci give me more give me more
> 
> you are a real life NPC  meme


You really whine a lot, typical.


----------



## dad4

"Lord" Tony?

The best you have is attacking the person?  You didn't even attack the real person.  You invented a false honorific, and then attacked that.   A straw man ad-hominem. 

I will at least give you credit for efficiency.  Not everyone can squeeze two logical fallacies into eight letters.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> "Lord" Tony?
> 
> The best you have is attacking the person?  You didn't even attack the real person.  You invented a false honorific, and then attacked that.   A straw man ad-hominem.
> 
> I will at least give you credit for efficiency.  Not everyone can squeeze two logical fallacies into eight letters.


The offense you two are  taking in attacking Fauci 

I think it’s quite ridiculous for someone to say they represent science

I think Fauci use for some trusted health expert ended a while ago, in fact it’s a net negative at this point

if that offends you and Husky , well so be it . Go cry in your mask


----------



## Brav520

Typical leftist,  point out some ridiculousness then be upset at the person pointing out the ridiculousness 

soft spot for Lord Anthony Fauci, duly noted


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Fun fact:  when you say the word “equity” on Twitter, all of the inequities inherent in your proposals to close schools, restrict family visits and have white collar professionals work on Zoom disappear!  Just like that!—J. Lewis


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Typical leftist,  point out some ridiculousness then be upset at the person pointing out the ridiculousness
> 
> soft spot for Lord Anthony Fauci, duly noted


"Leftist"?  I thought conservative principles were based on reality.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> "Leftist"?  I thought conservative principles were based on reality.


you made a funny


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> you made a funny


Do you really think you gain anything from launching these fantasies, thus exposing your true nature?

Don't mind me.  You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.  Please continue.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> Typical leftist,  point out some ridiculousness then be upset at the person pointing out the ridiculousness
> 
> soft spot for Lord Anthony Fauci, duly noted


You are the ridiculousness. Fauci’s job is to rep science. You seem to want to vilify him as if he were the scary thing in the dark to you. He’s just a man. Put down the pitch fork and the torch and go back inside. These aren’t the middle ages and he isn’t the purveyor of the Black Plague. Your displaced fear has you lashing out at straw men and windmills.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Do you really think you gain anything from launching these fantasies, thus exposing your true nature?
> 
> Don't mind me.  You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.  Please continue.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are the ridiculousness. Fauci’s job is to rep science. You seem to want to vilify him as if he were the scary thing in the dark to you. He’s just a man. Put down the pitch fork and the torch and go back inside. These aren’t the middle ages and he isn’t the purveyor of the Black Plague. Your displaced fear has you lashing out at straw men and windmills.


----------



## crush

Ted Cruz Calls for FauXi to be Investigated for Lying to Congress, FauXi's Response...
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*Australia to introduce new laws to force media platforms to unmask online trolls*



*"The online world should not be a wild west where bots and bigots and trolls and others are anonymously going around and can harm people," Morrison said at a televised press briefing. "That is not what can happen in the real world, and there is no case for it to be able to be happening in the digital world."*


----------



## crush

Bye bye!!!


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Do you really think you gain anything from launching these fantasies, thus exposing your true nature?
> 
> Don't mind me.  You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.  Please continue.


I don’t like the post nor am I equipped to debate the post so I’ll just call it a fantasy


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are the ridiculousness. Fauci’s job is to rep science. You seem to want to vilify him as if he were the scary thing in the dark to you. He’s just a man. Put down the pitch fork and the torch and go back inside. These aren’t the middle ages and he isn’t the purveyor of the Black Plague. Your displaced fear has you lashing out at straw men and windmills.


my fear ?

lmfao , dude look in the mirror


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> I don’t like the post nor am I equipped to debate the post so I’ll just call it a fantasy


The essence of @espola


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> The offense you two are  taking in attacking Fauci
> 
> I think it’s quite ridiculous for someone to say they represent science
> 
> I think Fauci use for some trusted health expert ended a while ago, in fact it’s a net negative at this point
> 
> if that offends you and Husky , well so be it . Go cry in your mask


La science c’est moi.


----------



## Grace T.

Omicron updates: COVID outbreak reported on cruise ship docking in New Orleans
					

As the COVID-19 pandemic has swept the globe, more than 5.2 million people have died from the disease worldwide, including over 785,000 Americans.




					abcnews.go.com
				




biden has quietly postponed enforcement of the vaccine mandates on federal workers til after the holidays.


----------



## Grace T.

Both members of Team Reality and Team Panic are trying to out Karen each other now.   It's Karen's all the way down.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Omicron updates: COVID outbreak reported on cruise ship docking in New Orleans
> 
> 
> As the COVID-19 pandemic has swept the globe, more than 5.2 million people have died from the disease worldwide, including over 785,000 Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> biden has quietly postponed enforcement of the vaccine mandates on federal workers til after the holidays.


Ah ok


----------



## crush

You have to understand, you have to get your vaccine, you have to get the shot, you have to get the booster.  Go get the booster now!!!  Do not wait and their free of charge for all Americans.  Oh, go get more boosters.  Wear your mask too.  Lastly, get ready for more boosters and no corners will be cut, like your health.  Get that shot!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Comparing health care workers vaccinated individuals getting breakthroughs but at substantially lower (roughly 1/6) rates than the unvaccinated.  But zero breakthrough cases in the previously infected.

Main caveat is the small time window studied.  also boosters not studied and we don't know the implication of the new omicron variant on natural immunity.  But if this holds up, this points to things normalizing only once everyone is infected.  At a minimum, there's no justification for imposing mandates on the previously infected.









						Continued Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccination among Urban Healthcare Workers during Delta Variant Predominance
					

Background Data on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness (VE) among healthcare workers (HCWs) during periods of delta variant predominance are limited.  Methods We followed a population of urban Massachusetts HCWs (45% non-White) subject to epidemiologic surveillance. We accounted for covariates such...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Comparing health care workers vaccinated individuals getting breakthroughs but at substantially lower (roughly 1/6) rates than the unvaccinated.  But zero breakthrough cases in the previously infected.
> 
> Main caveat is the small time window studied.  also boosters not studied and we don't know the implication of the new omicron variant on natural immunity.  But if this holds up, this points to things normalizing only once everyone is infected.  At a minimum, there's no justification for imposing mandates on the previously infected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Continued Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccination among Urban Healthcare Workers during Delta Variant Predominance
> 
> 
> Background Data on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness (VE) among healthcare workers (HCWs) during periods of delta variant predominance are limited.  Methods We followed a population of urban Massachusetts HCWs (45% non-White) subject to epidemiologic surveillance. We accounted for covariates such...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


some studies suggest natural immunity provides greater protection than the vaccine some don’t

the problem is policy makers aren’t taking into account natural immunity , and it’s not clear why that is


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Omicron updates: COVID outbreak reported on cruise ship docking in New Orleans
> 
> 
> As the COVID-19 pandemic has swept the globe, more than 5.2 million people have died from the disease worldwide, including over 785,000 Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> biden has quietly postponed enforcement of the vaccine mandates on federal workers til after the holidays.


I find it fascinating in a sad way that we get the announcement of a new variation and suddenly lockdowns/travel restrictions are talked about / being proposed around the world. 

And yet the South Africans are saying the symptoms seem to be milder vs current Delta.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Omicron updates: COVID outbreak reported on cruise ship docking in New Orleans
> 
> 
> As the COVID-19 pandemic has swept the globe, more than 5.2 million people have died from the disease worldwide, including over 785,000 Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> biden has quietly postponed enforcement of the vaccine mandates on federal workers til after the holidays.


Interesting how the virus works. Apparently over the holidays we don't need a mandate for the fed workers. But afterwards that is a different story. 

Totally political. But also tells you how worried they are about the virus. If the mandate was absolutely necessary, they would not now push it back. Right? After all they are trying to save lives.


----------



## thirteenknots

COINCIDENCE MY A$$ !


The Media are so Ridiculous in their attempts at covering up what's really happening.


The Truth will ALWAYS BE SET FREE !!    




*CORONAVIRUS*
*Media Says Rise in Football Players Suddenly 
Collapsing is a “Coincidence”*
Case closed.


 1 min ago 

 29 November, 2021 
Paul Watson

*The media has responded to the recent spate of high profile football players suddenly collapsing with heart problems in the middle of games by concluding that it is just a “coincidence.”*

Yes, really.

Over recent weeks and months, innumerable soccer stars, as well as other athletes, have mysteriously suffered the imminent onset of serious heart problems.

This prompted German newspaper Berliner Zeitung to publish a report seeking to answer why an “unusually large number of professional and amateur soccer players have collapsed recently.”

Last week, two more examples were added to the list when Sheffield United’s John Fleck collapsed and Sherrif Tiraspol winger Adama Traore went down near the end of a Champions League game against Real Madrid.




According to a report by Dr. Yaffa Shir-Raz, there has been a “5-fold increase in sudden cardiac deaths of FIFA players in 2021.”




However, according to a Daily Mail investigation, “‘It’s terrifying but it’s a COINCIDENCE” and there is not need for “panic.”

The report claims that, “A spate of high-profile heart problems and collapses among professional footballers in recent weeks are likely to be coincidence, rather than an indication players are struggling to cope with the high-intensity game, according to a leading cardiologist.”

Well, that settles that then. Case closed.

The entire report completely fails to even mention the prospect that negative vaccine reactions could have anything to do with what is happening, despite it being admitted that myocarditis is a vaccine side-effect in “rare” cases.

However, as Chris Menahan notes, the comment section is bursting with people making that very suggestion.

Is it any wonder why most websites are doing away with comment sections altogether?

As we previously highlighted, when one ex-pro dared to suggest a connection to vaccines during a live radio broadcast, he was censored in real time.


----------



## thirteenknots

One time is an incident.

Two times is a coincidence.

Three times is enemy action.

Some things are as easy as 1,2,3...


----------



## thirteenknots

DR ANDREAS NOACK - GRAPHENE HYDROXIDE - HIS PRESENTATION! (odysee.com) 

This is the real deal, watch it and understand what he is presenting.
Pass it along, what he is laying out is factual and verifiable.

Dr Andreas Noack is now dead, hours after this presentation.
Previously a German Doctor Thomas Jendges presented his 
findings of the contents within the " Vaccines ", shortly thereafter
he " reportedly " committed suicide. Imagine that.


----------



## thirteenknots




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound

This may sum up blue state/red state


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## crush

You need to get the shot today, no more excuse I'm being told.  If you obeyed the first two times, then you need to get your booster shot, today, ok you guys.  Today is the day to get shot........lol!!!!   He says their is no reason to get your shot today,  It's free, no reason for no shot.  Time is up...


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


ahhh, a lot of words from the CDC.  Way to go sciency people.  Having covid = vaccinated....If you've had covid, get a vax to be super protected.  If you've been vaxed, go catch covid.  But we'll let you know when we know something conclusive.  In the meantime, freak out and dont' go to South Africa, it's really dangerous there.


----------



## Grace T.

The Uk just recommended boosters for all adults, moved the interval from 6 to 3 months and recommended 4 shots for certain immunocompromised people.  People are not going to take shots every 3 months.  That’s beyond fantasy.  You can’t even get people to go to the dentist twice a year and that’s only an hour of discomfort.  If you mandate it and the 3rd shot isn’t the end of it, that’s the end of the vaccines as a tool to fight covid…the public gives you the middle finger.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The Uk just recommended boosters for all adults, moved the interval from 6 to 3 months and recommended 4 shots for certain immunocompromised people.  People are not going to take shots every 3 months.  That’s beyond fantasy.  You can’t even get people to go to the dentist twice a year and that’s only an hour of discomfort.  If you mandate it and the 3rd shot isn’t the end of it, that’s the end of the vaccines as a tool to fight covid…the public gives you the middle finger.


I just heard that Lord dude say "boosters every 3 months."  These people are nuts and something smells foul.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This may sum up blue state/red state
> 
> View attachment 12190


How dare you post that without a mask on the sad guy!


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> I just heard that Lord dude say "boosters every 3 months."  These people are nuts and something smells foul.


Three months?

If CDC wanted you to take boosters every three months, they'd say so.  CDC wants you to get your two shots and a single booster at 6 months.  

Even if you wanted four boosters a year, they won't let you.  It isn't approved.

Your "news" source is making stuff up.


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like the moderna chief may have tanked the European markets with his prediction the vaccines will struggle against the omicron and it will take some time to produce an omicron specific vaccine given we don’t fully understand all the new mutations. I note there are several things we don’t know yet: the severity (there have been anecdotes that it’s mostly mild but so far the cases seem have tipped younger) and whether it can outcompete the delta.

but if what the Moderna chief says is true I don’t see the rush to boost everyone in the us and the uk to shorten the window. If the current shots aren’t expected to perform well why the rush?  It seems more like dont Let a good scare go to waste.

also for the record since somepeople have insisted on keeping score: i said the danger from variants would be from the low vaccinated third world, that we weren’t paying enough attention to that problem, that there would be variants that push us back from here immunity and that Africa (given the aids crisis) was likely to be a problem in particular.


----------



## crush

We Won't Be Mandating
					

⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0  MIRRORED FROM: Aussie Fighter: https://odysee.com/@AussieFighter:8 https://odysee.com/@AussieFighter:8/We-Won't-Be-Mandating:9   INVITE https://o…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

This guy looks like he's from another planet.  Oh Lord, look at those ears on this one.  These guys are desperate now and now you can have a booster every three months to make you feel safer.  Fellas, you need to stop rolling your arm up for the team one of these days.  I'm here to help you get off the crack needle when your all ready.  I'm here for all of you when the time is right. 









						BOOSTERS NOW RECOMMENDED EVERY 3 MONTHS - SAYS BALD PSYCHO MUDERER!
					

⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0  MIRRORED FROM: The Worldwide Psychological Operation: https://odysee.com/@FwapUK:1 https://odysee.com/@FwapUK:1/bald-mekon-twat:d   INVITE https:…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*LA begins enforcing strict mandate requiring proof of vax*
A first offense will bring a warning but subsequent ones could produce fines running from $1,000 to $5,000. 
*"We have to adapt to whatever "rules" are coming at us.* And our customers go along with us," Laborie said. *Those that don't want to wear a mask or show vaccine proof can sit in the outdoor* patio or take their coffees and pastries to go, he said. 

Troy ((below with his wifey)) got all his jabs and still wears a mask as a good boy WHO obeys the rules for thee and not for me.  



*This is crazy.  I'm not going to LA ever again.  My wife just got a refund to a concert we were going to attend but we have to show vax or have someone stick shit up our nose to test negative.  LA, bad move.  I;m sure Omicron will come to LA though.  Nothing and no one can stop what is coming.  Nice try guys. *


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

crush said:


> This guy looks like he's from another planet.  Oh Lord, look at those ears on this one.  These guys are desperate now and now you can have a booster every three months to make you feel safer.  Fellas, you need to stop rolling your arm up for the team one of these days.  I'm here to help you get off the crack needle when your all ready.  I'm here for all of you when the time is right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOOSTERS NOW RECOMMENDED EVERY 3 MONTHS - SAYS BALD PSYCHO MUDERER!
> 
> 
> ⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0  MIRRORED FROM: The Worldwide Psychological Operation: https://odysee.com/@FwapUK:1 https://odysee.com/@FwapUK:1/bald-mekon-twat:d   INVITE https:…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


bitchute?   If you want to know what the British Health and Social Care Secretary recommends, England does have real news reporters.

Three shots.  Four if you are immunocompromised.









						Covid: All UK adults to be offered booster jab
					

Experts also recommend a second dose for 12 to 15-year-olds, in response to the Omicron variant.



					www.bbc.com
				




That garbage site you’re reading doesn’t even bother to fact check their headlines.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> bitchute?   If you want to know what the British Health and Social Care Secretary recommends, England does have real news reporters.
> 
> Three shots.  Four if you are immunocompromised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: All UK adults to be offered booster jab
> 
> 
> Experts also recommend a second dose for 12 to 15-year-olds, in response to the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That garbage site you’re reading doesn’t even bother to fact check their headlines.


Dad, you are full of shit bro.  Time to find something else to lie about.  We have been lied to so many times we think lying is ok as long as you win. Look at the bald guy with the ears in the video and tell me you trust him.  The media is not showing you the truth.  You have to Rumble, check out the Chute and Tel a Gram and the Tube and then gather all the information and connect the dots.  You only go to CNN and MSN.  It's obvious the way you reacted to the truth.  Are you still an atheist?  I know we have a few agnostics on here.  I will say very soon all will be shown the real truth.  Get ready fake math teacher and liar of the truth.


----------



## crush

Further and faster dude.  This is from Youtube......


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> also for the record since somepeople have insisted on keeping score: i said the danger from variants would be from the low vaccinated third world, that we weren’t paying enough attention to that problem, that there would be variants that push us back from here immunity and that Africa (given the aids crisis) was likely to be a problem in particular.


The vaccine "solution" isn't looking promising due to variants - and that's an understatement. Given the breakthrough cases we are seeing, it's also laughable that anyone thinks we can keep the latest variant with an R > the delta variant out of the US. It's just fantasy. If I had to guess, masks will be the way in Santa Clara county well into the future. I find it interesting what a different "feel" it was in San Diego a few weeks back compared to Santa Clara. Here, you see the examples of fear every time you take a walk - kids masked while outside, people walking off the sidewalk and onto the road when passing others. It's sad. I feel fortunate that we don't have a young child in school, or we would definitely move elsewhere. The constant fear is just not a healthy environment.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> i said the danger from variants would be from the low vaccinated third world, that we weren’t paying enough attention to that problem, that there would be variants that push us back from here immunity and that Africa (given the aids crisis) was likely to be a problem in particular.


And to be honest that isn't going to change. No matter how much money we throw at them we will not overcome the following:

- these are some of the most corrupt and inefficient governments in the world
- these are some of the poorest countries in the world
- these countries are not experiences any meaningful deaths from covid

Add the above up and you are never going to get a large percentage of the populations there vaxxed. And so the problem with variations will continue.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> The vaccine "solution" isn't looking promising due to variants - and that's an understatement. Given the breakthrough cases we are seeing, it's also laughable that anyone thinks we can keep the latest variant with an R > the delta variant out of the US. It's just fantasy. If I had to guess, masks will be the way in Santa Clara county well into the future. I find it interesting what a different "feel" it was in San Diego a few weeks back compared to Santa Clara. Here, you see the examples of fear every time you take a walk - kids masked while outside, people walking off the sidewalk and onto the road when passing others. It's sad. I feel fortunate that we don't have a young child in school, or we would definitely move elsewhere. The constant fear is just not a healthy environment.


Thank God for free thinkers in America bro.  Regardless of what one believes, free thinkers would rather die before their owned or bought or take jabs for ever just so they can sit on the fence and watch death, depression, fear and more death.  I never bought into this slave system that starts in grade school and is supposed to end when one retires at 70 with cancer, heart disease or a stroke or even attack on the heart.  I was not bought/bribed into this system either bro where one can blackmail me into salience and STFU.  It took a wild man like me to take a stand up and tell these assholes to fuck off and nothing will enter my body.  I will not obey the rules that these liars and cheaters put together so they could win.  Hell no!!!  Come and get me losers.  SCC and LAC have the same type of man that lives there.  I wont get into why this kind of man is the way he is.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Looks like the moderna chief may have tanked the European markets with his prediction the vaccines will struggle against the omicron and it will take some time to produce an omicron specific vaccine given we don’t fully understand all the new mutations. I note there are several things we don’t know yet: the severity (there have been anecdotes that it’s mostly mild but so far the cases seem have tipped younger) and whether it can outcompete the delta.


I think the issue is the vaxxes were designed for the A variant. This is why despite high vaxx rates in many areas you see cases going up when people catch the delta. 

It seems in a sense it is like the flu. We don't use last years vaxx to combat this years flu. And yet we are trying to use the vax designed for the alpha to combat the delta and beyond.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> SCC and LAC have the same type of man that lives there.  I wont get into why this kind of man is the way he is.


In LAC, do they really enforce the mask mandate EVERYWHERE? My impression from my limited experiences in LAC is that enforcement is pretty much only where elites live and shop - and even then not nearly 100%.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> The *IRRATIONAL FEAR* is just not a healthy environment.


Fixed it for you. 

It is long past time to move on.

The way this thing comes up with mutations so quickly the vax route doesn't seem long term viable. 

Probably better off just working on solutions to treat those who actually have severe issues with the vax. 

And with the way the vaxxes seem to be losing effectiveness vs variants, it may be in the long term better to just build up natural immunity to the virus. REMEMBER....the VAST VAST majority of people currently have little risk to any of the variations seen so far.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> In LAC, do they really enforce the mask mandate EVERYWHERE? My impression from my limited experiences in LAC is that enforcement is pretty much only where elites live and shop - and even then not nearly 100%.


Everywhere bro.  Mask on everywhere and you best get the vax or your not welcome.  Teachers were told NOT to have Thanksgiving dinner with anti-vax family members.  BTW, if you did have a little one, where would you move to?


----------



## crush

*Prepare ye thee for Dark Winter II fellas and Grace T.  I love you all and I mean that. *

*Fed Chair Powell to tell Congress that omicron variant could threaten U.S. economic recovery*
*Jerome Powell wrote that the omicron variant poses 'downside risks to employment and economic activity'

STORM ON THE HORIZON!!!

*

My advice is to buy lot's of popcorn and get a blanket and sit by the warm fire place and start watching this show unfold before our eyes and ears. Really, this is the greatest time to be alive and many of you have been picked to help humanity heal itself from utter evil.  I believe in most of you and want you on the team.  Some of you are making serious eternal decisions and I would pause and go out into the wilderness alone and fast for three days.  After you fast, stop eating meat and stop drinking booze ((for now)) so you can get your head on straight.  After 30 days, your eyes will begin to open and your mind we be open to the truth and folks like me are here to help you with the truth.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way over Thanksgiving news came out from the NE Journal of Medicine.

Here they are telling us the natural immunity is VERY effective.

"Reinfections had *90% lower odds of resulting in hospitalization or death than primary infections*. Four reinfections were severe enough to lead to acute care hospitalization. None led to hospitalization in an ICU, and none ended in death. *Reinfections were rare and were generally mild, perhaps because of the primed immune system after primary infection.*

In earlier studies, we assessed the efficacy of previous natural infection as protection against reinfection with SARS-CoV-22,3 as being 85% or greater. *Accordingly, for a person who has already had a primary infection, the risk of having a severe reinfection is only approximately 1% of the risk of a previously uninfected person having a severe primary infection*."



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> BTW, if you did have a little one, where would you move to?


Seems like San Diego would be a possibility. Their risk assessment appears to match mine better than SC County.  At some point, I'd like to be somewhere that I don't have to wear a mask for COVID and/or the seasonal flu. If I wanted to avoid all the irrational COVID drama that comes with living in CA, I'd say Texas or Florida.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Front "page" of CNN Site

"No known mutation can make a virus evade precautions such as face masks, handwashing and distancing"

Uh, this misleading at best. Taken individually, only distancing is always true for this statement for the original COVID virus (much less the more transmissible mutations) - and no one appears to know how much distancing as 6 feet was an educated guess. Taken together, the statement is not always true without appropriate distancing as just mentioned). Sadly, that doesn't even account for rooms that get filled with the virus and someone comes in after that. Junk journalism.


----------



## crush

Their dropping like the liars they are.  No more cheating or pay to play games anymore.  It;s over!!!  This is the clean up job and rounding up the rest of the rats that have been cheating us all.  We The People Win   Nothing and no one can stop what is coming.  It's all good you guys unless you have been cheating and have not said sorry and stopped.  We all have a few skeletons in our closets.  Let's not act like no one is guilty of something in their lifetime.  It's time to come clean and start this new game where everyone is equal somehow.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The vaccine "solution" isn't looking promising due to variants - and that's an understatement. Given the breakthrough cases we are seeing, it's also laughable that anyone thinks we can keep the latest variant with an R > the delta variant out of the US. It's just fantasy. If I had to guess, masks will be the way in Santa Clara county well into the future. I find it interesting what a different "feel" it was in San Diego a few weeks back compared to Santa Clara. Here, you see the examples of fear every time you take a walk - kids masked while outside, people walking off the sidewalk and onto the road when passing others. It's sad. I feel fortunate that we don't have a young child in school, or we would definitely move elsewhere. The constant fear is just not a healthy environment.


I'll make some predictions.  This is all assuming we have a moderate omicron outbreak that does indeed evade the vaccine and pushes out the delta:

-the US economy is already teetering.  Even in red states, the supply disruptions will be enough to push things over.  Supply chains which have already been stretched tumble and we go into full scale 1970s stagflation
-The red states will try and ignore what's happening but the Ds will feel pressure from certain groups (public health/teachers unions) to do something.  Since Biden really is captured to a large degree by these interests groups, he may even be able to use the momentum to push through a modified BBB bill which will exacerbate the stagflation problems.  Biden admin, already been thrashed by the federal courts on the vaccine mandates, will go into full conflict mode with the red states
-The blue states under pressure from these groups will put in place some limited restrictions, the harshest affecting kids, including in some major cities and some blue states school closures.  We will have a massive mental health breakdown in blue states as many people are close to the edge (ditto for Europe which will see resistance which dwarfs that currently happening).
-The middle 1/3 of the public really doesn't care about policies and just wants to see it over.  They rightfully or wrongly blamed Trump for everything that went wrong in 2020 and rightfully or wrongly blamed Biden for not getting better results (even though the Delta was beyond his control).  The Ds get hammered in 2022, potentially going into the wilderness for a generation (depending what other things lie down the road for the Rs)
-The vaccine solution is dead given they've gone all in on boosters.  A large segment of the public will not tolerate 4 shots.

My caveat is all this assumes an omicron outbreak at least as bad as the Delta (which we don't know if it will push out the Delta and if it's more serious).  Different result if it's more deadly and people (including kids) start dying in mass (in which case I think the public will tolerate more restrictions).  Different result if early indications that it's a more mild cold take place (in which case I think even the Ds won't listen to the teacher's unions given what happened in Virginia...you already saw the split in the morning conference with Biden and Fauci....if it comes to it I think Biden cuts Fauci loose before the elections).


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Front "page" of CNN Site
> 
> "No known mutation can make a virus evade precautions such as face masks, handwashing and distancing"
> 
> Uh, this misleading at best. Taken individually, only distancing is always true for this statement for the original COVID virus (much less the more transmissible mutations) - and no one appears to know how much distancing as 6 feet was an educated guess. Taken together, the statement is not always true without appropriate distancing as just mentioned). Sadly, that doesn't even account for rooms that get filled with the virus and someone comes in after that. Junk journalism.


You’re overly eager to find fault there.  Face masks, soap, and distancing are all useful during flu/covid season.  Other than getting your shots and being outside, it’s a solid list.

It isn‘t an ironclad defense, nor is it meant to be.  It’s a few small steps that you can do while going on with a normal life.  On the scale of putting an air cleaner in the room for poker night.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re overly eager to find fault there.  Face masks, soap, and distancing are all useful during flu/covid season.  Other than getting your shots and being outside, it’s a solid list.
> 
> It isn‘t an ironclad defense, nor is it meant to be.  It’s a few small steps that you can do while going on with a normal life.  On the scale of putting an air cleaner in the room for poker night.


Why do you want to take such excessive steps avoid a cold/flu?

As to the flu, don't you trust your flu shot?

As to the cold, it's part of the human condition.  You seriously advocating for people to wear masks to avoid colds in perpetuity?

As to COVID, the last thing you want (particularly if the omicron turns out to be all that), is for people to think they are "safe" having an all night poker night with the windows closed and no airfilter and no vaccine if they use their masks, soap and a little distancing.  And we do know for a fact there is a percentage of people who do think that from prior polling/reporting....they are afraid of the vaccine and have been told to trust the mask.  If people are going to opt to do the indoor poker night (3+ hours next to each other probably drinking too and pulling down masks), or visit grandma for Christmas, I would think we would want them to make a realistic assessment of the risk.  Otherwise, look who's killing grandma now.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Why do you want to take such excessive steps avoid a cold/flu?
> 
> As to the flu, don't you trust your flu shot?
> 
> As to the cold, it's part of the human condition.  You seriously advocating for people to wear masks to avoid colds in perpetuity?
> 
> As to COVID, the last thing you want (particularly if the omicron turns out to be all that), is for people to think they are "safe" having an all night poker night with the windows closed and no airfilter and no vaccine if they use their masks, soap and a little distancing.  And we do know for a fact there is a percentage of people who do think that from prior polling/reporting....they are afraid of the vaccine and have been told to trust the mask.  If people are going to opt to do the indoor poker night (3+ hours next to each other probably drinking too and pulling down masks), or visit grandma for Christmas, I would think we would want them to make a realistic assessment of the risk.  Otherwise, look who's killing grandma now.


You always seem to be chasing.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You always seem to be chasing.


errr....says the guy who always seems to be trolling.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Why do you want to take such excessive steps avoid a cold/flu?
> 
> As to the flu, don't you trust your flu shot?
> 
> As to the cold, it's part of the human condition.  You seriously advocating for people to wear masks to avoid colds in perpetuity?
> 
> As to COVID, the last thing you want (particularly if the omicron turns out to be all that), is for people to think they are "safe" having an all night poker night with the windows closed and no airfilter and no vaccine if they use their masks, soap and a little distancing.  And we do know for a fact there is a percentage of people who do think that from prior polling/reporting....they are afraid of the vaccine and have been told to trust the mask.  If people are going to opt to do the indoor poker night (3+ hours next to each other probably drinking too and pulling down masks), or visit grandma for Christmas, I would think we would want them to make a realistic assessment of the risk.  Otherwise, look who's killing grandma now.


Extreme?

Washing my hands now counts as extreme?   

Or is it the outdoor barbecue that makes me a true radical?  Beware.  I have a big green egg, and I'm not afraid to use it.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I'll make some predictions.  This is all assuming we have a moderate omicron outbreak that does indeed evade the vaccine and pushes out the delta:
> 
> -the US economy is already teetering.  Even in red states, the supply disruptions will be enough to push things over.  Supply chains which have already been stretched tumble and we go into full scale 1970s stagflation
> -The red states will try and ignore what's happening but the Ds will feel pressure from certain groups (public health/teachers unions) to do something.  Since Biden really is captured to a large degree by these interests groups, he may even be able to use the momentum to push through a modified BBB bill which will exacerbate the stagflation problems.  Biden admin, already been thrashed by the federal courts on the vaccine mandates, will go into full conflict mode with the red states
> -The blue states under pressure from these groups will put in place some limited restrictions, the harshest affecting kids, including in some major cities and some blue states school closures.  We will have a massive mental health breakdown in blue states as many people are close to the edge (ditto for Europe which will see resistance which dwarfs that currently happening).
> -The middle 1/3 of the public really doesn't care about policies and just wants to see it over.  They rightfully or wrongly blamed Trump for everything that went wrong in 2020 and rightfully or wrongly blamed Biden for not getting better results (even though the Delta was beyond his control).  The Ds get hammered in 2022, potentially going into the wilderness for a generation (depending what other things lie down the road for the Rs)
> -The vaccine solution is dead given they've gone all in on boosters.  A large segment of the public will not tolerate 4 shots.
> 
> My caveat is all this assumes an omicron outbreak at least as bad as the Delta (which we don't know if it will push out the Delta and if it's more serious).  Different result if it's more deadly and people (including kids) start dying in mass (in which case I think the public will tolerate more restrictions).  Different result if early indications that it's a more mild cold take place (in which case I think even the Ds won't listen to the teacher's unions given what happened in Virginia...you already saw the split in the morning conference with Biden and Fauci....if it comes to it I think Biden cuts Fauci loose before the elections).


Here is my "prediction".  Covid and its variants will do what it does regardless of restrictions, cases will spike and then go down.  The majority will go on with life.  The media will continue to fear monger, left leaning politicians will continue to discriminate against children and the unvaccinated.  The healthy and the young will continue to have very little risk from the virus.  Some will continue to hide at home while others work to deliver their Amazon packages.  This thread will average 15+ posts a day.

Not so much a prediction as much as just a continuation of the last two years.  It ain't rocket science.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Extreme?
> 
> Washing my hands now counts as extreme?
> 
> Or is it the outdoor barbecue that makes me a true radical?  Beware.  I have a big green egg, and I'm not afraid to use it.


One of my brothers went through a hypochondriac OCD phase where he would wash his hands any time he shook hands with someone or touched a surface.  So yes, handwashing can be extreme.  I suppose it depends how often you do it, and if you think it will truly do anything to stop COVID if you are playing poker with guys indoors on a winter night for 3+ hours.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Here is my "prediction".  Covid and its variants will do what it does regardless of restrictions, cases will spike and then go down.  The majority will go on with life.  The media will continue to fear monger, left leaning politicians will continue to discriminate against children and the unvaccinated.  The healthy and the young will continue to have very little risk from the virus.  Some will continue to hide at home while others work to deliver their Amazon packages.  This thread will average 15+ posts a day.
> 
> Not so much a prediction as much as just a continuation of the last two years.  It ain't rocket science.


My prediction is the same as always.....

Love or hate: You decide


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re overly eager to find fault there.  Face masks, soap, and distancing are all useful during flu/covid season.  Other than getting your shots and being outside, it’s a solid list.
> 
> It isn‘t an ironclad defense, nor is it meant to be.  It’s a few small steps that you can do while going on with a normal life.  On the scale of putting an air cleaner in the room for poker night.


Ha! You didn't address any of my criticisms of their statement and what you did write is not at all what CNN stated. If they would have stated washing hands and wearing masks can be useful in reducing the transmission of viruses, I wouldn't have had an issue.

It's not news - it's advocacy and it is misleading. It's a statement of absolutes. How is this not presented as an "ironclad defense"? "No known mutation can make a virus evade precautions ...". It gives a false sense of security and wasn't true for the original COVID virus much less more transmissible mutations.

Maybe you are overly eager to put a stamp of approval on anything that encourages the wearing of masks - misleading or not. Not everyone is predisposed to unquestioningly trust people who are willing to manipulate them. You lose their trust with statements like that.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Here is my "prediction".  Covid and its variants will do what it does regardless of restrictions, cases will spike and then go down.  The majority will go on with life.  The media will continue to fear monger, left leaning politicians will continue to discriminate against children and the unvaccinated.  The healthy and the young will continue to have very little risk from the virus.  Some will continue to hide at home while others work to deliver their Amazon packages.  This thread will average 15+ posts a day.
> 
> Not so much a prediction as much as just a continuation of the last two years.  It ain't rocket science.


Agree with a lot of the sentiment but here's what I think is different.  If this is anything like a new delta quite a few things (the economy, the Biden administration, the mental health of a segment of society, parents with kids in closed schools, the vaccination strategy) are close to the end of their ropes.  If this thing is just more of the same, I agree.  If this thing is even something as bad as a "new delta" or delta-type wave, the health authorities will feel obligated to "do something" and that something causes a few wheels to go off the rails.  That's what I think the markets are pricing in: the possibility that this is a delta or worse * the negative costs it will inflict.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ha! You didn't address any of my criticisms of their statement and what you did write is not at all what CNN stated. If they would have stated washing hands and wearing masks can be useful in reducing the transmission of viruses, I wouldn't have had an issue.
> 
> It's not news - it's advocacy and it is misleading. It's a statement of absolutes. How is this not presented as an "ironclad defense"? "No known mutation can make a virus evade precautions ...". It gives a false sense of security and wasn't true for the original COVID virus much less more transmissible mutations.
> 
> Maybe you are overly eager to put a stamp of approval on anything that encourages the wearing of masks - misleading or not. Not everyone is predisposed to unquestioningly trust people who are willing to manipulate them. You lose their trust with statements like that.


Hey fellas, take a look at his bio man.  Bill Gates was the last person to pseak with Jeffrey before he went away.  I guess Bill was trying to get him to do something and Jeff told him to, "Fuck Off Bill."  I kid you not.  Look at the crew WHO put the jabs together in record time bro.  Bill, Toney and Jeff.


----------



## Grace T.

Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Agree with a lot of the sentiment but here's what I think is different.  If this is anything like a new delta quite a few things (the economy, the Biden administration, the mental health of a segment of society, parents with kids in closed schools, the vaccination strategy) are close to the end of their ropes.  If this thing is just more of the same, I agree.  If this thing is even something as bad as a "new delta" or delta-type wave, the health authorities will feel obligated to "do something" and that something causes a few wheels to go off the rails.  That's what I think the markets are pricing in: the possibility that this is a delta or worse * the negative costs it will inflict.


p.s. it's why also the markets seem to fluctuate whenever an authority figure comes on and reflects the possibility (Biden's no time to panic v. Fauci's be prepared v. the Moderna chief's this is scary comments).  The guess as to the probability figure is moving.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> p.s. it's why also the markets seem to fluctuate whenever an authority figure comes on and reflects the possibility (Biden's no time to panic v. Fauci's be prepared v. the Moderna chief's this is scary comments).  The guess as to the probability figure is moving.


The message is all over the place and that's why this is the biggest scam and heist ever.  I called it, "Grab & Go" and t is calling it, "smash & grab."  I'm sure we need more pain before the fence sitters wake up.  The Military is the only way to fix this shit.  We need to find the truth and then never let this ever happen again.  I call upon God to help us and when I make that call, God answers  Make that call and God help you too


----------



## crush

So under the new twitter rules I won't be able to post my twitter's new CEO wombo videos??
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Here is my "prediction".  Covid and its variants will do what it does regardless of restrictions, cases will spike and then go down.  The majority will go on with life.  The media will continue to fear monger, left leaning politicians will continue to discriminate against children and the unvaccinated.  The healthy and the young will continue to have very little risk from the virus.  Some will continue to hide at home while others work to deliver their Amazon packages.  This thread will average 15+ posts a day.
> 
> Not so much a prediction as much as just a continuation of the last two years.  It ain't rocket science.


Very preliminary but the following boosts (little joke) the more of the same theory:

-It's been in Europe for a few weeks now and gone undetected and no mass dropping dead









						Omicron COVID variant was in Europe before South African scientists detected and flagged it to the world
					

Authorities in the Netherlands say testing has confirmed that COVID cases identified on November 19 and 23 were the new strain — days before researchers identified it.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




-I wouldn't trust the Pfizer data as far as I can throw it and it's a very small sample but it seems the vaccine holds up well, at least against severe disease.



			https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/covid-1st-data-about-vaccine-efficacy-against-omicron-expected-tuesday-687392


----------



## Grace T.

The evil Ron DeSantis is striking again.  Cases in the Northeast are reaching record peaks and hospitalizations rising.   We need to stop the evil Ron deSantis from discouraging these blue states from getting their vaxxes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465763642650079240


----------



## thirteenknots

A true Chemist


dad4 said:


> Three months?
> 
> If CDC wanted you to take boosters every three months, they'd say so.  CDC wants you to get your two shots and a single booster at 6 months.
> 
> Even if you wanted four boosters a year, they won't let you.  It isn't approved.
> 
> Your "news" source is making stuff up.


Instead of " typing " your own commentary, why don't you 
cite sources to back up the CDC insanity.
You might even read it.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ha! You didn't address any of my criticisms of their statement and what you did write is not at all what CNN stated. If they would have stated washing hands and wearing masks can be useful in reducing the transmission of viruses, I wouldn't have had an issue.
> 
> It's not news - it's advocacy and it is misleading. It's a statement of absolutes. How is this not presented as an "ironclad defense"? "No known mutation can make a virus evade precautions ...". It gives a false sense of security and wasn't true for the original COVID virus much less more transmissible mutations.
> 
> Maybe you are overly eager to put a stamp of approval on anything that encourages the wearing of masks - misleading or not. Not everyone is predisposed to unquestioningly trust people who are willing to manipulate them. You lose their trust with statements like that.


I guess I just don’t expect advanced biology lessons from a news reporter.  Is it likely that certain mutations make a virus more or less able to survive longer journeys from host to host?  Maybe.  Would that have an impact on mask effectiveness?  Maybe.  Do I expect that a news reporter would be able to answer either question?  Heck no.  

As soon as a reporter started telling me what mutations are and are not capable of, I took it all with a grain of salt.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Here is my "prediction".  Covid and its variants will do what it does regardless of restrictions, cases will spike and then go down.  The majority will go on with life.  The media will continue to fear monger, left leaning politicians will continue to discriminate against children and the unvaccinated.  The healthy and the young will continue to have very little risk from the virus.  Some will continue to hide at home while others work to deliver their Amazon packages.  This thread will average 15+ posts a day.
> 
> Not so much a prediction as much as just a continuation of the last two years.  It ain't rocket science.


Sounds about right.  Put on your tinfoill hat and chew on this one:  We'll continue to supress delivery of vaccines to Africa.  They'll continue to spin off variants (likely less deadly but panic worthy).  Pharma companies will come to the rescue with  more vaccines and therapeutics.  We'll carry this cycle for the foreseable future.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I guess I just don’t expect advanced biology lessons from a news reporter.  Is it likely that certain mutations make a virus more or less able to survive longer journeys from host to host?  Maybe.  Would that have an impact on mask effectiveness?  Maybe.  Do I expect that a news reporter would be able to answer either question?  Heck no.
> 
> As soon as a reporter started telling me what mutations are and are not capable of, I took it all with a grain of salt.


Advanced biology? How about simple unsupported statements. Notice there is no expert quote there. So, why did the reporting say it at all? They violated the first law of Dirty Harry, "A man's gotta know his limitations"


----------



## Grace T.

The Merck drug passes FDA advisory panel in a surprisingly close vote.  13-10.  Chief concerns seem to be it's efficiency is much less than initially reported (only 30% in stopping hospitalizations) and might encourage further mutations.

The Pfizer drug seems to have fewer concerns (but I'm now somewhat skeptical of any data Pfizer now produces on anything).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> errr....says the guy who always seems to be trolling.


Sorry if the truth hurts. I calls’em as I sees ‘um. Put the bucket down and catch your breath.


----------



## what-happened

U.S. COVID-19 vaccine diplomacy envoy returns to nonprofit group
					

The Biden administration's global COVID-19 response coordinator Gayle Smith has left the role after eight months, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Tuesday, just as the world grapples with the new Omicron variant of the coronavirus.  A State Department spokesperson said Smith had been on...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Figures she can do better on her own than with the US Government?


----------



## crush

Ok pal, whatever you say.  What a fake this guy is.  









						CNBC's Cuck Cramer Has This To Say To The Pure Bloods.....
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The Merck drug passes FDA advisory panel in a surprisingly close vote.  13-10.  Chief concerns seem to be it's efficiency is much less than initially reported (only 30% in stopping hospitalizations) and might encourage further mutations.
> 
> The Pfizer drug seems to have fewer concerns (but I'm now somewhat skeptical of any data Pfizer now produces on anything).


The panel also recommended the Merck drug to be limited in use.  13-10 is very close.  Also, some panel members wanted to specifically exclude pregnant women from popping the pills.  Jabs yes, pills no.  Interesting stuff.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Advanced biology? How about simple unsupported statements. Notice there is no expert quote there. So, why did the reporting say it at all? They violated the first law of Dirty Harry, "A man's gotta know his limitations"


New reporting has exponentially more overblown statements these days.  It has become orders of magnitude more difficult to get reporters to use precise language.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Ok pal, whatever you say.  What a fake this guy is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNBC's Cuck Cramer Has This To Say To The Pure Bloods.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


1. Biden's multiple mandates are in tatters in front of the courts already....what makes him think the President can just mandate it for everyone?  I think the only one left fully in tact is the military one IIUC.
2.  How exactly would the military make a difference?  It goes in and drags people into their houses to get vaxxed?
3. If you think these soft vax mandates have gotten push back, wait til you involve the military.
4. Add kids to that...it will be fun.
5. If it doesn't work against the omicron, then what exactly is the point?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. Biden's multiple mandates are in tatters in front of the courts already....what makes him think the President can just mandate it for everyone?  I think the only one left fully in tact is the military one IIUC.
> 2.  How exactly would the military make a difference?  It goes in and drags people into their houses to get vaxxed?
> 3. If you think these soft vax mandates have gotten push back, wait til you involve the military.
> 4. Add kids to that...it will be fun.
> 5. If it doesn't work against the omicron, then what exactly is the point?


Bad word warning.  Cover your ears you fuckers!!!  Crammer is calling for a war and wants to lock my ass up because I say "Never Mother Fucker will you or anyone force me or try and scare me into taking any jabs from Gates, Fauci & Epstein."  That guy is desperate and sold his soul I bet.  He makes zero sense and he's some financial wiz over at the news?  What a joke he is!!!


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> New reporting has exponentially more overblown statements these days.  It has become orders of magnitude more difficult to get reporters to use precise language.


Why stop at reporters.  Besides, where do you think they are getting their info from.    These days very little news is derived from journalism.  Much of it is driven by calculated leakers to their favorite outlet that supports a specific agenda.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> The panel also recommended the Merck drug to be limited in use.  13-10 is very close.  Also, some panel members wanted to specifically exclude pregnant women from popping the pills.  Jabs yes, pills no.  Interesting stuff.


Read the reasons for the no votes.

The pill doesn't work very well.  It can also cause birth defects.

The mechanism is troubling, too.  It works by creating viral mutations.  Mostly, that means the new viral copies are broken things that cannot reproduce.  (Yay!)  But you run the risk that one of the mutated copies is a new and improved version.  (Boo!)

In all, I find viral mutanogen pills to be a scarier concept than an mRNA vaccine.


----------



## Brav520

Not sure how they could possibly enforce the quarantine rules 





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/30/omicron-stricter-travel-rules-us-entry/


----------



## crush

This is getting crazier by the day.   Johnny has a message for us anti-vaxers


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Read the reasons for the no votes.
> 
> The pill doesn't work very well.  It can also cause birth defects.
> 
> The mechanism is troubling, too.  It works by creating viral mutations.  Mostly, that means the new viral copies are broken things that cannot reproduce.  (Yay!)  But you run the risk that one of the mutated copies is a new and improved version.  (Boo!)
> 
> In all, I find viral mutanogen pills to be a scarier concept than an mRNA vaccine.


Not a criticism of your position.  I find it well reasoned.  But am pleasantly surprised you are agreeing with the minority scientific opinion for a change (well...you have a few times like the school closures you eventually came around on...but it is unusual for you).


----------



## Grace T.

Wow, who knew...apparently masks do have costs!  I had been assured they don't.








						Face masks DO harm kids' development, landmark study shows
					

Face masks may in fact impede on children's development, a new study has found, with the report citing a 23 per cent drop in scores measuring kids' cognitive abilities since the pandemic began.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Wow, who knew...apparently masks do have costs!  I had been assured they don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Face masks DO harm kids' development, landmark study shows
> 
> 
> Face masks may in fact impede on children's development, a new study has found, with the report citing a 23 per cent drop in scores measuring kids' cognitive abilities since the pandemic began.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


The study indicates a 23% drop in children's cognitive scores. Based on the leadership we have had during the pandemic, I'd estimate many adults lost much more than that. Irrational fear has that effect on rational thought and reasoning.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> The panel also recommended the Merck drug to be limited in use.  13-10 is very close.  Also, some panel members wanted to specifically exclude pregnant women from popping the pills.  Jabs yes, pills no.  Interesting stuff.


The reality is the vaxx and this have not gone through the normal procedure. 

Now there are good arguments to be made that we drag our feet getting new drugs approved. 

On the other hand both the vax and this have been super rushed and as with the vax...we are still learning LOTS of stuff about what it can, cannot do, possible bad effects, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Why stop at reporters.  Besides, where do you think they are getting their info from.    These days very little news is derived from journalism.  Much of it is driven by calculated leakers to their favorite outlet that supports a specific agenda.


Much of what is driven is also supported by the press. The press overwhelmingly is to the left. It is hard to see daylight between their reporting and the official D position on various policies. 

Because of that one needs to get news from a variety of sources. The truth usually lies somewhere in between. 

FYI if the press was predominately to the right...I would still tell people to get news from a variety of sources for the exact same reason I do today.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Read the reasons for the no votes.
> 
> The pill doesn't work very well.  It can also cause birth defects.
> 
> The mechanism is troubling, too.  It works by creating viral mutations.  Mostly, that means the new viral copies are broken things that cannot reproduce.  (Yay!)  But you run the risk that one of the mutated copies is a new and improved version.  (Boo!)
> 
> In all, I find viral mutanogen pills to be a scarier concept than an mRNA vaccine.


These pills were always going to underperform, they always do.  They are cheap to make, cheap to distribute, and easy to take.  Margins are better - it's where the real money is made in the world of Pharma.  

Both pills and MRNA vaccines should considered scary.  mRNA is a great technology  and certainly makes it easier to create a vaccine.  mRNA vaccines dont have a long safety profile.  The new therapeautics also lack a long safety profile.  Bang for the buck and if you fit the profile, go for the vaccines.

I find it silly that people advocate for the pills and discredit the vaccines.  Certainly more data available for the vaccines.  Not all good but mostly good. In reality, in terms of treatment effectiveness, Monoclonal antibody treatment is the way to go.  Unfortunately it's expensive - but very effective.  Widespread testing and monoclonal antibody treatment is a good thing, just take a peek at Florida.


----------



## Grace T.

Her defense is "I adhered to the technical theater portions of the mask order".  Seriously this is o.k. but they want 6 year olds masked all day????









						S.F. Mayor Breed appears maskless in another nightclub video. She says she didn’t violate COVID rules
					

The mayor’s spokesman said that Breed was in a private section of a club. San...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Much of what is driven is also supported by the press. The press overwhelmingly is to the left. It is hard to see daylight between their reporting and the official D position on various policies.
> 
> Because of that one needs to get news from a variety of sources. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.
> 
> FYI if the press was predominately to the right...I would still tell people to get news from a variety of sources for the exact same reason I do today.


Agree but it's not just politics.  The news media has gotten lazy as they've been replaced with a bunch of partisan hacks.  Investigative journalism is few and far between.  Political journalism consists of regurgitating talking points memos released by your side.  Legal journalism consists of hiring lawyers to be talking heads and mostly wax on their political takes (see Toobin or Judge Jeanine) instead of doing real research (see for example the Kavanuagh hearings) and has become an extension of politics.  Entertainment journalism is basically taking press releases from the studios or publicists.   Tech journalism consists mostly of interviews with people in the industry or press releases.  Science journalism has been reduced to citing studies or interviewing quasi-celebrities like Tyson or Musk.  Sports journalism is focused (at least in the mainstream outlets) a lot on politics and personal lives or lazy interviews.  There are still a few reporters and outfits doing analysis and reporting but it's rare particularly among entities like ESPN or Sports Illustrated.  Economic journalism still is kicking somewhat but is mostly focused on interviewing academics.  Laziness up and down the line.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Her defense is "I adhered to the technical theater portions of the mask order".  Seriously this is o.k. but they want 6 year olds masked all day????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.F. Mayor Breed appears maskless in another nightclub video. She says she didn’t violate COVID rules
> 
> 
> The mayor’s spokesman said that Breed was in a private section of a club. San...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfchronicle.com











						None of the people telling you to be worried about coronavirus are worried about coronavirus
					

A few days ago, a video surfaced of San Francisco mayor London Breed partying at a night club without a mask on. She is seen dancing and singing along to music in a large crowd of fellow partygoers despite the city’s ordinance for indoor mask wearing. But before we judge, let’s look at the...




					thewillwitt.substack.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Agree but it's not just politics.  The news media has gotten lazy as they've been replaced with a bunch of partisan hacks.  Investigative journalism is few and far between.  Political journalism consists of regurgitating talking points memos released by your side.  Legal journalism consists of hiring lawyers to be talking heads and mostly wax on their political takes (see Toobin or Judge Jeanine) instead of doing real research (see for example the Kavanuagh hearings) and has become an extension of politics.  Entertainment journalism is basically taking press releases from the studios or publicists.   Tech journalism consists mostly of interviews with people in the industry or press releases.  Science journalism has been reduced to citing studies or interviewing quasi-celebrities like Tyson or Musk.  Sports journalism is focused (at least in the mainstream outlets) a lot on politics and personal lives or lazy interviews.  There are still a few reporters and outfits doing analysis and reporting but it's rare particularly among entities like ESPN or Sports Illustrated.  Economic journalism still is kicking somewhat but is mostly focused on interviewing academics.  Laziness up and down the line.


Isn't life so much simpler when you can just turn your brain off like that?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Isn't life so much simpler when you can just turn your brain off like that?


What up dog?  Man, this has been a long battle with you and your little brain.  I told you I was going to do something big to make this sport better for the next group of soccer players.  You had such little faith.  TGIFW!


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Isn't life so much simpler when you can just turn your brain off like that?


We keep wondering if you will ever actually turn on your brain and contribute something other than....LINK?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are the ridiculousness. Fauci’s job is to rep science. You seem to want to vilify him as if he were the scary thing in the dark to you. He’s just a man. Put down the pitch fork and the torch and go back inside. These aren’t the middle ages and he isn’t the purveyor of the Black Plague. Your displaced fear has you lashing out at straw men and windmills.


There's a facism thread.  Please use it for your fascist post.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Agree but it's not just politics.  The news media has gotten lazy as they've been replaced with a bunch of partisan hacks.  Investigative journalism is few and far between.  Political journalism consists of regurgitating talking points memos released by your side.  Legal journalism consists of hiring lawyers to be talking heads and mostly wax on their political takes (see Toobin or Judge Jeanine) instead of doing real research (see for example the Kavanuagh hearings) and has become an extension of politics.  Entertainment journalism is basically taking press releases from the studios or publicists.   Tech journalism consists mostly of interviews with people in the industry or press releases.  Science journalism has been reduced to citing studies or interviewing quasi-celebrities like Tyson or Musk.  Sports journalism is focused (at least in the mainstream outlets) a lot on politics and personal lives or lazy interviews.  There are still a few reporters and outfits doing analysis and reporting but it's rare particularly among entities like ESPN or Sports Illustrated.  Economic journalism still is kicking somewhat but is mostly focused on interviewing academics.  Laziness up and down the line.











						'Reporting the Controversy' — How the Corrupt Media Creates Fake News - The Stream
					

"Reporting the controversy” is an end-run that lets media hacks peddle fake news to promote their political agenda. I.e., the Russia hoax.




					stream.org


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> We keep wondering if you will ever actually turn on your brain and contribute something other than....LINK?


We don't even get a "nonsense" post anymore. His value proposition is decreasing. I didn't think that was possible.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> 'Reporting the Controversy' — How the Corrupt Media Creates Fake News - The Stream
> 
> 
> "Reporting the controversy” is an end-run that lets media hacks peddle fake news to promote their political agenda. I.e., the Russia hoax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stream.org


Check this Fearmercial out Hound.  Can you imagine having to go to that place and not being jabbed?  Wow, I have much to say about these Docs.


----------



## crush

These MEN showed up at a Kansas City council meeting where they were gonna pass a city vax mandate. They didn’t even make noise or speak out.
Wanna guess whether the vax mandate was passed or not?


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> These MEN showed up at a Kansas City council meeting where they were gonna pass a city vax mandate. They didn’t even make noise or speak out.
> Wanna guess whether the vax mandate was passed or not?
> 
> View attachment 12218


Get the FBI after these people


----------



## crush

I know a big abortion case going on with the Supremes right now.  I bring it up here because word on the street is that some of these experiments that Dr. F, Bill and Jeff were doing had aborted baby tissue ((past 6 month or older fetus is best and can go for $250,000)) from heart and lung mixed with bat, monkey, rat and beagle dna.  Also, Mississippi is only asking to make it illegal after 15 weeks and not out lawing abortion up to 15 weeks. This is a touchy subject so I will tread lightly.  I am a voice for the fetus and I'm here to say that me and all the other fetuses would like a chance at life too and not used for experiments.  No more, please..........I hope as a planet we can all build back better human race through love and mercy at the next great reset and get rid of once and for all, all the hate through bribes and blackmail because one is bought so easily for almighty buck.  Let's take care of all of God's beautiful kids.  The truth will expose all this and will make many puke and feel very depressed.  We have to be shown the truth folks because no one believes what is really going on and what all this is really about.  We need to save the kids you guys before we go back to normal.  We can;t have a society with the likes of Tony, Bill and Jeff running things behind the scenes.  Stay safe you guys


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> 'Reporting the Controversy' — How the Corrupt Media Creates Fake News - The Stream
> 
> 
> "Reporting the controversy” is an end-run that lets media hacks peddle fake news to promote their political agenda. I.e., the Russia hoax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stream.org


Media advocacy has replaced journalism and is driving the divide here. We have "sides" in the media now - as is always the case when advocacy is a primary objective.

It will be interesting where education ends up. Education may be the next battleground that ends up being split into "sides". The pandemic has crystallized the philosophical differences many have with the current state of their public education system. As has happened with the mainstream news organizations, education has moved more into advocacy. Bari Weiss' new approach to higher education with the University of Austin is specifically targeting the current culture on many college campuses. This will be a very ugly battle if it happens on a significant scale. There is power to be lost and it won't be given up easily - and it will be divisive.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> I know a big abortion case going on with the Supremes right now.  I bring it up here because word on the street is that some of these experiments that Dr. F, Bill and Jeff were doing had aborted baby tissue ((past 6 month or older fetus is best and can go for $250,000)) from heart and lung mixed with bat, monkey, rat and beagle dna.  Also, Mississippi is only asking to make it illegal after 15 weeks and not out lawing abortion up to 15 weeks. This is a touchy subject so I will tread lightly.  I am a voice for the fetus and I'm here to say that me and all the other fetuses would like a chance at life too and not used for experiments.  No more, please..........I hope as a planet we can all build back better human race through love and mercy at the next great reset and get rid of once and for all, all the hate through bribes and blackmail because one is bought so easily for almighty buck.  Let's take care of all of God's beautiful kids.  The truth will expose all this and will make many puke and feel very depressed.  We have to be shown the truth folks because no one believes what is really going on and what all this is really about.  We need to save the kids you guys before we go back to normal.  We can;t have a society with the likes of Tony, Bill and Jeff running things behind the scenes.  Stay safe you guys


I heard the vaccine is really alien microchips that take over your brain.  24 months later you’ll find yourself marching onto a flying saucer, and there won’t be a thing you can do about it.  Bill sold us all out so the aliens would use Windows 12 to run their battle fleets.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Media advocacy has replaced journalism and is driving the divide here. We have "sides" in the media now - as is always the case when advocacy is a primary objective.
> 
> It will be interesting where education ends up. Education may be the next battleground that ends up being split into "sides". The pandemic has crystallized the philosophical differences many have with the current state of their public education system. As has happened with the mainstream news organizations, education has moved more into advocacy. Bari Weiss' new approach to higher education with the University of Austin is specifically targeting the current culture on many college campuses. This will be a very ugly battle if it happens on a significant scale. There is power to be lost and it won't be given up easily - and it will be divisive.


What is the University of Austin?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I heard the vaccine is really alien microchips that take over your brain.  24 months later you’ll find yourself marching onto a flying saucer, and there won’t be a thing you can do about it.  Bill sold us all out so the aliens would use Windows 12 to run their battle fleets.


Q.  How did LeBron get the Rona after being jabbed twice plus he got a booster?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Media advocacy has replaced journalism and is driving the divide here. We have "sides" in the media now - as is always the case when advocacy is a primary objective.
> 
> It will be interesting where education ends up. Education may be the next battleground that ends up being split into "sides". The pandemic has crystallized the philosophical differences many have with the current state of their public education system. As has happened with the mainstream news organizations, education has moved more into advocacy. Bari Weiss' new approach to higher education with the University of Austin is specifically targeting the current culture on many college campuses. This will be a very ugly battle if it happens on a significant scale. There is power to be lost and it won't be given up easily - and it will be divisive.


Higher education isn't being split into sides, there is only one side, opposing opinions to that side are to be silenced.  What once was dominant in the liberal arts is now starting to happen in the sciences.  That's the scariest part.  It's also happening to our language where the meaning of words is being changed to suit a narrative.  Words are now micro aggressions and dog whistles.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> What is the University of Austin?


You have a computer and presumably know how to search online. Try it some time.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Higher education isn't being split into sides, there is only one side, opposing opinions to that side are to be silenced.


Is that a prediction or your view of the current state of education? Your full post pretty much represents my current view of education. However, I believe the seeds are planted for alternatives that are a more significant portion of our population and well defined philosophically in terms of objectives. Whether it becomes a movement that grows remains to be seen. In our current state, I'd say the opportunity is there for an alternative.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is that a prediction or your view of the current state of education? Your full post pretty much represents my current view of education. However, I believe the seeds are planted for alternatives that are a more significant portion of our population and well defined philosophically in terms of objectives. Whether it becomes a movement that grows remains to be seen. In our current state, I'd say the opportunity is there for an alternative.


“The world needs ditch diggers too!”


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Higher education isn't being split into sides, there is only one side, opposing opinions to that side are to be silenced.  What once was dominant in the liberal arts is now starting to happen in the sciences.  That's the scariest part.  It's also happening to our language where the meaning of words is being changed to suit a narrative.  Words are now micro aggressions and dog whistles.


I see you have joined Grace's brain-dead conclusion jumping ashram.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> You have a computer and presumably know how to search online. Try it some time.


The result I got from a simple computer search led me to ask "Why would anyone refer to a non-existent University?"  

Or maybe you know better, and can fill us in on the latest facts.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The result I got from a simple computer search led me to ask "Why would anyone refer to a non-existent University?"
> 
> Or maybe you know better, and can fill us in on the latest facts.


Duck Duck Duck Duck.....Go!!!!


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is that a prediction or your view of the current state of education? Your full post pretty much represents my current view of education. However, I believe the seeds are planted for alternatives that are a more significant portion of our population and well defined philosophically in terms of objectives. Whether it becomes a movement that grows remains to be seen. In our current state, I'd say the opportunity is there for an alternative.


Here's the limitation: the meritocracy.  Meritocrats, to preserve their own power and advance their own standing, want to fit in among their peers groups.  Their peer groups, however, are mostly liberal.  How do you get to be a meritocrat in higher education?  You go to a fancy highly ranked school and then a fancy highly ranked grad program, where you are judged your peers and advance (as in all careers) in part based on how well you fit into the group.  So, there is a bias for most academics (who are risk-adverse people anyway or they wouldn't have chosen the career) to fit in, which means being progressive.  The question is are there enough qualified people (either from right leaning people or centrists who have grown fed up with the nonsense) to push back on this, and not fear for their own standing in the academic community (because they have options).  Higher education isn't built up to protect the students....it's to protect the jobs and status of the meritocrats.

The mandarins of the Qing dynasty are particularly illustrative in this case.


----------



## crush

Walk Away From Money - Dave Chappelle
					

David Chappelle is an American stand-up comedian, actor, writer, and producer, best known for his satirical comedy sketch series Chappelle's Show (2003 - 2006). Chappelle is the recipient of numerous




					rumble.com


----------



## Grace T.

An interesting article for two reasons.  One, the irrational fear still being illustrated by some blue checks over COVID.  Two, the fact that even the blue checks seem to be nearing the breaking point.









						COVID Parenting Is Reaching a Breaking Point
					

An epidemiologist joins five Atlantic parents to discuss just how long their pandemic trade-offs can hold.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## crush

The Supreme Court is hearing the Mississippi abortion case today that could overturn Roe v. Wade, so here’s a little reminder about one of Planned Parenthood’s practices or "A *Plan* for a* Parent* in the *Hood.*"

*Perrin Larton, Procurement Manager for Planned Parenthood’s procurement partner Advanced Bioscience Resources, admitted UNDER OATH in 2019 that intact babies with beating hearts are dissected outside the womb to obtain the specific organs and tissues requested by researchers. *

Q.  Who are the researchers?  Where is the research being done?  $$$$$$???   Sic!!!!


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Q.  How did LeBron get the Rona after being jabbed twice plus he got a booster?


A.  The vaccine reduces, but does not eliminate, the odds of infection and transmission.  

The vaccine is much better at reducing your odds of hospitalization and death.  Not 100% for that, either.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> A.  The vaccine reduces, but does not eliminate, the odds of infection and transmission.
> 
> The vaccine is much better at reducing your odds of hospitalization and death.  Not 100% for that, either.


Oh, ok dad.  So the real reason to get fucking jabbed twice + booster + more boosters every three months is to keep out of the hospital and not safe from actually catching the shit?  You make zero sense now and now have been become a complete liar and fool.  At least we ALL can see the board and see WHO is bought.  Are you bribed?  How blackmailed?  Your starting to sound like a pitchman for evil dude....


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Here's the limitation: the meritocracy.  Meritocrats, to preserve their own power and advance their own standing, want to fit in among their peers groups.  Their peer groups, however, are mostly liberal.  How do you get to be a meritocrat in higher education?  You go to a fancy highly ranked school and then a fancy highly ranked grad program, where you are judged your peers and advance (as in all careers) in part based on how well you fit into the group.  So, there is a bias for most academics (who are risk-adverse people anyway or they wouldn't have chosen the career) to fit in, which means being progressive.  The question is are there enough qualified people (either from right leaning people or centrists who have grown fed up with the nonsense) to push back on this, and not fear for their own standing in the academic community (because they have options).  Higher education isn't built up to protect the students....it's to protect the jobs and status of the meritocrats.
> 
> The mandarins of the Qing dynasty are particularly illustrative in this case.


That might describe social scientists.  It doesn’t sound like any of the mathematicians or physicists I know.

Your entire narrative never mentions research or publishing.   That is a major omission; you paid no attention to the meritocrats’ definition of merit.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> The result I got from a simple computer search led me to ask "Why would anyone refer to a non-existent University?"
> 
> Or maybe you know better, and can fill us in on the latest facts.


Southern Rhode Island Institute of the Arts is a wonderful college, despite its non-existence.



			https://southernrhodeisland.art/


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That might describe social scientists.  It doesn’t sound like any of the mathematicians or physicists I know.
> 
> Your entire narrative never mentions research or publishing.   That is a major omission; you paid no attention to the meritocrats’ definition of merit.


As watfly has said, the scientists were mostly immune, but you even see it now in medicine with the new push towards wokeness in medical school.  That's turning too.  I don't by into the hysteria of this piece, but it is illustrative of the trend. Mathematics is harder because, you know, mathematics doesn't lie....but it's creeping there too....the push in California for equity in math.









						Wokeness Destroying Medicine - The American Conservative
					

They came for writers and professors, and few said anything. Then they came for cops. Now they're targeting doctors




					www.theamericanconservative.com
				




Research again is more on the scientific end of things (though even some of that, particularly on the weaker sciences, is increasingly garbage).  After all, how many times has the origin of the Shakespeare plays, the meaning of a Robert Frost poem, or the economics of the Roman Empire need to be turned over to discover something new. Most of it outside the sciences (including law) is busy work....but it's also busy work which pushes away from education (which you think an institution of higher learning would prioritize) and doesn't add a whole lot of value.

I paid no attention to the meritocrats' definition of merit as a result because it's just an illusion.  Really it's just a velvet rope (like much of human interactions) signaling I'm in, you're out, I have status, you don't.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Oh, ok dad.  So the real reason to get fucking jabbed twice + booster + more boosters every three months is to keep out of the hospital and not safe from actually catching the shit?  You make zero sense now and now have been become a complete liar and fool.  At least we ALL can see the board and see WHO is bought.  Are you bribed?  How blackmailed?  Your starting to sound like a pitchman for evil dude....


The alien microchips are starting to kick in.  

If you’re not ok with things that only half work, don’t think about medicine too much.  Your decision to become vegetarian is a smart choice that will reduce your odds of a heart attack.   But it’s not perfect, so they still have you come in for cholesterol screening.   Yet one more thing that only works halfway.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> As watfly has said, the scientists were mostly immune, but you even see it now in medicine with the new push towards wokeness in medical school.  That's turning too.  I don't by into the hysteria of this piece, but it is illustrative of the trend. Mathematics is harder because, you know, mathematics doesn't lie....but it's creeping there too....the push in California for equity in math.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wokeness Destroying Medicine - The American Conservative
> 
> 
> They came for writers and professors, and few said anything. Then they came for cops. Now they're targeting doctors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theamericanconservative.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Research again is more on the scientific end of things (though even some of that, particularly on the weaker sciences, is increasingly garbage).  After all, how many times has the origin of the Shakespeare plays, the meaning of a Robert Frost poem, or the economics of the Roman Empire need to be turned over to discover something new. Most of it outside the sciences (including law) is busy work....but it's also busy work which pushes away from education (which you think an institution of higher learning would prioritize) and doesn't add a whole lot of value.
> 
> I paid no attention to the meritocrats' definition of merit as a result because it's just an illusion.  Really it's just a velvet rope (like much of human interactions) signaling I'm in, you're out, I have status, you don't.


p.s. here's more proof.  MIT isn't immune from it either, nor are the sciences.  Remember the fuss over Sumner's remarks about women and mathematics/stem.  There's self-censorship in the sciences too, and COVID has blasted it out into the open...









						Alumni Withhold Donations, Demand Colleges Enforce Free Speech
					

Driven by politically moderate or conservative baby boomers who believe progressive groupthink has taken over college campuses, some alumni groups urge schools to protect free speech, sometimes withholding donations as a pressure tactic.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The alien microchips are starting to kick in.
> 
> If you’re not ok with things that only half work, don’t think about medicine too much.  Your decision to become vegetarian is a smart choice that will reduce your odds of a heart attack.   But it’s not perfect, so they still have you come in for cholesterol screening.   Yet one more thing that only works halfway.


No booze either.  I drank a little here.  I had to drive all over socal chasing medals and when I got home, I made myself Rum and Coke.  Plus fast food was killing me as well as all the stress I put on myself to make it in socal.  You know, keep up with the Jones?  Any WHO, I'm looking for the UBI for every soul and true freedom from cheaters and liars.  Math really did us hard this time.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is that a prediction or your view of the current state of education? Your full post pretty much represents my current view of education. However, I believe the seeds are planted for alternatives that are a more significant portion of our population and well defined philosophically in terms of objectives. Whether it becomes a movement that grows remains to be seen. In our current state, I'd say the opportunity is there for an alternative.


Current view for the most part.  Not claiming that its absolute at every institution of higher education but appears to be the predominate culture.

I hope your right in terms of an alternative; right now I don't see how it happens while occupying the same space.  An alternative that is separate just causes more division...if I'm making any sense.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> p.s. here's more proof.  MIT isn't immune from it either, nor are the sciences.  Remember the fuss over Sumner's remarks about women and mathematics/stem.  There's self-censorship in the sciences too, and COVID has blasted it out into the open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alumni Withhold Donations, Demand Colleges Enforce Free Speech
> 
> 
> Driven by politically moderate or conservative baby boomers who believe progressive groupthink has taken over college campuses, some alumni groups urge schools to protect free speech, sometimes withholding donations as a pressure tactic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


I think that article is wishful thinking by WSJ.  

You won’t find me defending DEI programs, but I don’t see much pushback within the academy.  Math and science will try to defend themselves by retreating into research and relying on blind peer review, which is a good policy anyway.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think that article is wishful thinking by WSJ.
> 
> You won’t find me defending DEI programs, but I don’t see much pushback within the academy.  Math and science will try to defend themselves by retreating into research and relying on blind peer review, which is a good policy anyway.


That's fine as long as they don't voice their opinions outside of math and science.  By not defending DEI programs your math opinions may be silenced, as was the case below.









						M.I.T.’s Choice of Lecturer Ignited Criticism. So Did Its Decision to Cancel.
					

Dorian Abbot is a scientist who has opposed aspects of affirmative action. He is now at the center of an argument over free speech and acceptable discourse.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The question is are there enough qualified people (either from right leaning people or centrists who have grown fed up with the nonsense) to push back on this, and not fear for their own standing in the academic community (because they have options).


Agree, this is the key.



Grace T. said:


> Higher education isn't built up to protect the students....it's to protect the jobs and status of the meritocrats.
> 
> The mandarins of the Qing dynasty are particularly illustrative in this case.


This scenario plays out every time power is consolidated and yet we continue to allow it to happen as if it will be different this time.


----------



## Grace T.

Omicron is here!  Omicron is here!  Panic everyone!  In San Francisco no less (the city probably most likely to panic)
.  








						Omicron variant found in California
					

A case of the omicron variant has been detected in the U.S. The omicron variant of the coronavirus was first discovered in southern Africa.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Current view for the most part.  Not claiming that its absolute at every institution of higher education but appears to be the predominate culture.
> 
> I hope your right in terms of an alternative; right now I don't see how it happens while occupying the same space.  An alternative that is separate just causes more division...if I'm making any sense.


Agree - no way it occurs in the same space and it will cause more division.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> What is the University of Austin?





Desert Hound said:


> You have a computer and presumably know how to search online. Try it some time.


I used to think he was intentionally obtuse for argumentative purposes, but I've come to the conclusion that its genetic.  Obviously, I'm a little slow myself.


----------



## Brav520

There is a politico article third search down on google


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Omicron is here!  Omicron is here!  Panic everyone!  In San Francisco no less (the city probably most likely to panic)
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron variant found in California
> 
> 
> A case of the omicron variant has been detected in the U.S. The omicron variant of the coronavirus was first discovered in southern Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


I bet SF?


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's fine as long as they don't voice their opinions outside of math and science.  By not defending DEI programs your math opinions may be silenced, as was the case below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M.I.T.’s Choice of Lecturer Ignited Criticism. So Did Its Decision to Cancel.
> 
> 
> Dorian Abbot is a scientist who has opposed aspects of affirmative action. He is now at the center of an argument over free speech and acceptable discourse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


It’s not fine.  You’re already starting to see the woke mob demand more black faces in math and science.

Of course, their demand does not come with an army of tutors who want to sit down and teach fractions to curious 7 year old black kids.  They want to skip that step.


----------



## thirteenknots

"When tyranny becomes the law, rebellion becomes duty." 

Thomas Jefferson


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> A.  The vaccine reduces, but does not eliminate, the odds of infection and transmission.
> 
> The vaccine is much better at reducing your odds of hospitalization and death.  Not 100% for that, either.


OMG.

That IS the sickest, most uneducated response I have witnessed in quite some time.

Please don't be offended, just regroup and use intellect before hitting Post Reply.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Omicron is here!  Omicron is here!  Panic everyone!  I*n San Francisco no less *(the city probably most likely to panic)
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron variant found in California
> 
> 
> A case of the omicron variant has been detected in the U.S. The omicron variant of the coronavirus was first discovered in southern Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


----------



## crush

*Biden shifts supply chain blame, points finger at Santa if gifts are late*

"Now, I can’t promise that every person will get every gift they want on time," Biden said. "Only Santa Claus can keep that promise."


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> In San Francisco no less (the city *GUARANTEED* to panic)


Fixed it for you.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Media advocacy has replaced journalism and is driving the divide here. We have "sides" in the media now - as is always the case when advocacy is a primary objective.
> 
> It will be interesting where education ends up. Education may be the next battleground that ends up being split into "sides". The pandemic has crystallized the philosophical differences many have with the current state of their public education system. As has happened with the mainstream news organizations, education has moved more into advocacy. Bari Weiss' new approach to higher education with the University of Austin is specifically targeting the current culture on many college campuses. This will be a very ugly battle if it happens on a significant scale. There is power to be lost and it won't be given up easily - and it will be divisive.


Apparently you've not seen any of the krufuffle around charter schools.   Privatization of public schools is about as divisive as it gets.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Apparently you've not seen any of the krufuffle around charter schools.   Privatization of public schools is about as divisive as it gets.


What kind of kerfuffle are you seeing up north? Charter schools aren't perfect but the existing high schools that converted to charter have given a lot of kids the opportunity to get out of really bad high schools, at least in San Diego.   At the pre-high school level you see a few fly-by-night charter schools.  The charter high schools in our area are comparable to the regular publics (except for sports where the charters are superior ) but far better than the schools where a lot of the kids come from.

The biggest kerfuffle I hear is the crappy schools complaining that they are losing enrollment (aka $$$) to the better charter schools. Which to me is "too bad, so sad".


----------



## crush

Breaking Rona News:  White House will announce the strictest Covid rules ever tomorrow.  Grace T, predictions on news coming out of DC?  I got my rumor mill but not 100% confirmed yet.  

In abortion News:  
Sonia Sotomayor: "How is your interest anything but a religious view ... that's a religious view ... because it assumes that a fetus is life"

Well, let's not assume a fetus is not a life either.  What a dumb dumb.  Seriously, I told all my Science teachers and anyone who would listen that the fetus is human, alive, happy, has feelings and wants to be a part of life.  Seriously, every kid conceived wants a chance to perform and have all the thrills life brings.  15 weeks to decide on life or death for baby is not asking for the whole house folks.  Trust mem the fetus moving and sucking his thumb at this age.  The fetus is not brain dead either like some people I know at this forum.  These people are crazy and sick.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> What kind of kerfuffle are you seeing up north? Charter schools aren't perfect but the existing high schools that converted to charter have given a lot of kids the opportunity to get out of really bad high schools, at least in San Diego.   At the pre-high school level you see a few fly-by-night charter schools.  The charter high schools in our area are comparable to the regular publics (except for sports where the charters are superior ) but far better than the schools where a lot of the kids come from.
> 
> The biggest kerfuffle I hear is the crappy schools complaining that they are losing enrollment (aka $$$) to the better charter schools. Which to me is "too bad, so sad".


I have a very very good friend high up in education.  The next level for him is to run for Office.  Dude is the boss of all the bosses.  He and a private equity group is starting a Neighborhood Teachers Group.  Uber type teachers from the community.  Each community has a few teachers who hate politics and can;t stand the office environment and will come to your house to teach your kids the basics.  Some are looking to start neighborhood schools for those who would rather work 60 hours a week in an office and not teach their children from home.  Non religious and just the basics for k-3.  4th-6th grade gets more into verticals of topics and subjects that the kids actually like.  Once 7 and 8th grade comes around, kid is all ready to study for the future for his likes and interest.  All this stuff about making a buck to keep up with the Jones is for the birds.  UBI is coming for everyone!!!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You won’t find me defending DEI programs, but I don’t see much pushback within the academy.


Tangent alert.

Speaking of DEI.  I just listened to the MLS Next Fest Welcome Webinar and a good portion of the webinar was devoted to DEI and how important it is to MLS Next.  A lot of platitudes but not much substance.  If any sport has DEI covered its soccer.  My son's team alone has the following ethnicities: Black, White, French, Filipino, Iraqi, Mexican, Columbian, Spanish, Puerto Rican, Albanian and Japanese and I don't even know everyone's background on the team.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> What kind of kerfuffle are you seeing up north? Charter schools aren't perfect but the existing high schools that converted to charter have given a lot of kids the opportunity to get out of really bad high schools, at least in San Diego.   At the pre-high school level you see a few fly-by-night charter schools.  The charter high schools in our area are comparable to the regular publics (except for sports where the charters are superior ) but far better than the schools where a lot of the kids come from.
> 
> The biggest kerfuffle I hear is the crappy schools complaining that they are losing enrollment (aka $$$) to the better charter schools. Which to me is "too bad, so sad".


It's contentious for a lot of reasons.  I do think the legitimate charter schools get a bad wrap here.  That said, there's a lot of corruption.  I wasn't really intending to bring this into debate...just that education is already super divisive.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> It's contentious for a lot of reasons.  I do think the legitimate charter schools get a bad wrap here.  That said, there's a lot of corruption.  I wasn't really intending to bring this into debate...just that education is already super divisive.


Unfortunately anytime you have public money available there is going to be corruption.  Our politicians (on both sides) don't seem to have the willpower and/or our government doesn't have the capability to hold anyone accountable for the misuse of public funds.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Unfortunately anytime you have public money available there is going to be corruption.  Our politicians (on both sides) don't seem to have the willpower and/or our government doesn't have the capability to hold anyone accountable for the misuse of public funds.


Cut these people some grace bro.  Many were bought and then bribed.  Once that happens, Jeff and his girl will find a way to get them over to the Island man.  Did you see The Firm?


----------



## Grace T.

South Korea, having one of the highest vaxx rates in the world, 82% of population fully vaxxed, and masks, has set daily records two days in a row and it’s hospital system (which isn’t extensively staffed…see squid games for the issues) is nearing collapse. Also has 5 omicron cases from a new source: Nigeria. Speculation now is omicron might be all over Africa and some speculating it might not have been an aids patient after all but a reverse zoonotic source (cat or deer related). 

japan meanwhile has close to zero covid now as covid is collapsing in that country.  The main difference in policy between the 2 is Korea still has a contact trace (which has collapsed in recent days) and Japan has pretty much shut its borders post Olympics.  Neither can fully explain the difference in what’s happening.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> South Korea, having one of the highest vaxx rates in the world, 82% of population fully vaxxed, and masks, has set daily records two days in a row and it’s hospital system (which isn’t extensively staffed…see squid games for the issues) is nearing collapse. Also has 5 omicron cases from a new source: Nigeria. Speculation now is omicron might be all over Africa and some speculating it might not have been an aids patient after all but a reverse zoonotic source (cat or deer related).
> 
> japan meanwhile has close to zero covid now as covid is collapsing in that country.  The main difference in policy between the 2 is Korea still has a contact trace (which has collapsed in recent days) and Japan has pretty much shut its borders post Olympics.  Neither can fully explain the difference in what’s happening.


Grace, you know the Japanese are the most meticulous hand washers in the world. That has to be the reason.


----------



## crush

COVIDIOCRATIC VACCINE LOGIC (conversation with a covidiot...)
					

================ (world orders review) ================ COVIDIOCRATIC VACCINE LOGIC (conversation with a covidiot...) https://www.bitchute.com/video/TF3azKREspDa/ [SHARE] ================ (c) https://www.bitchute.com/channel/tangentopolis/ (e…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*Germany announces nationwide lockdown for the unvaccinated*

I didn;t know Hitler was back in power.  Wow, this getting intense fellas & Grace T.  I wonder what President Biden will say today.  I'm told by a reliable source in the spiritual realm that the world is being told to "Lockdown Now!!!"


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> It's contentious for a lot of reasons.  I do think the legitimate charter schools get a bad wrap here.  That said, there's a lot of corruption.  I wasn't really intending to bring this into debate...just that education is already super divisive.


In AZ charters get less money per student vs public schools. And with that money produce better outcomes. 

Are all of them good? Nope. Like any biz, school, etc, some are not good. But the good thing about a charter school is that if it fails, it GOES away. 

When I drive through a bad or so so part of town and see a nice new charter being built, I think how lucky those kids will be to now have a choice/chance.


----------



## crush

Talk about waking up to Groundhog day.  This is never going to end.  I will now sit on my fence and chirp away until real change comes.  

I guess what their saying is this contaminated guy flew from Africa to SF and was tested for Omicron.  He had been vaccinated twcie but did not get the booster.  Based on this fact, it seems if this guy had been probably boosterred, he would be safe?  Everyone now needs to go get a booster because of waning issues.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, why did the reporting say it at all? "


Just like virtually all the shit that gets linked here, on both putative "sides".  It gets clicks.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Chief concerns seem to be it's efficiency is much less than initially reported (only 30% in stopping hospitalizations) and might encourage further mutations.
> 
> The Pfizer drug seems to have fewer concerns (but I'm now somewhat skeptical of any data Pfizer now produces on anything).


This drug makes the viral polymerase a "sloppier copier", so it actually elevates the base substitution rate during viral replication.  The idea is that if elevate the base substitution rate high enough  virtually all the packaged genomes will encode dead virus.  While this might be achievable, IMO the approach introduces a second drug site target besides S to select viral variants.  But if it worked well enough, I could see using it for immuno-compromised people who have a hard time maintaining elevated Ab titers or memory stem cell populations.  But not a big improvement in terms of an overall strategy.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> In AZ charters get less money per student vs public schools. And with that money produce better outcomes.
> 
> Are all of them good? Nope. Like any biz, school, etc, some are not good. But the good thing about a charter school is that if it fails, it GOES away.
> 
> When I drive through a bad or so so part of town and see a nice new charter being built, I think how lucky those kids will be to now have a choice/chance.


One of the great side benefits of charter schools are that they are eroding some of the power of the teachers' union. Unfortunately it also makes them a target of legislation by politicians that are beholden to the unions.


----------



## Grace T.

Omicron now in Minnesota not Africa tied.  I think all reports have still been mild.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466438480775548948


----------



## Grace T.

More on the criticism of the numbers released on the Bangladesh study.  Very top line: they made their claims based on a differences of 20 or so cases, that could be accounted for by differences in survey, and which nevertheless showed no difference in cloth masks or for the younger people surgical masks.









						Researchers shoot holes in study touted for confirming 'masks work' in curbing COVID
					

Study of 342,000 adults finds masks effective against COVID based on 20 infections.




					justthenews.com


----------



## Grace T.

interesting piece on what we were talking about yesterday.  science is becoming less innovative because of a trend in researchers to limit original research and instead rely on a handful of popular topics and engage in the citation game.  follows the trends we discussed in journalism and entertainment too.  this guy Iirc is a lefty.



			America Is Running on Fumes


----------



## Grace T.

Things in Germany are teetering.  Merkel has retired and Germany is trying to put in place a vaccine mandate.  There's been large protests against mandates.  the incoming chancellor has to rely on a coalition to rule and the libertarian leaning free democrats are opposed to vaccine mandates.  they are talking about a lockdown of the unvaccinated (but that lasted in Austria only a few days before they went to full restrictions).


----------



## crush

They went from posting Covid Deaths Numbers to "Fully Vaccinated."  Nuts!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> More on the criticism of the numbers released on the Bangladesh study.  Very top line: they made their claims based on a differences of 20 or so cases, that could be accounted for by differences in survey, and which nevertheless showed no difference in cloth masks or for the younger people surgical masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Researchers shoot holes in study touted for confirming 'masks work' in curbing COVID
> 
> 
> Study of 342,000 adults finds masks effective against COVID based on 20 infections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justthenews.com


It is rather irresponsible to mention the difference in positivity counts without mentioning the difference in sample size.

If you allow that argument, there are all sorts of bullshit things you can prove.  For example, driving fast is safer than driving slow.  Just compare the total number of car crashes in formula one racing to the total number of car crashes in California each year.  Every year, far more people die in ordinary car crashes than in Formula One racing.  Clearly, slower driving is more dangerous.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It is rather irresponsible to mention the difference in positivity counts without mentioning the difference in sample size.
> 
> If you allow that argument, there are all sorts of bullshit things you can prove.  For example, driving fast is safer than driving slow.  Just compare the total number of car crashes in formula one racing to the total number of car crashes in California each year.  Every year, far more people die in ordinary car crashes than in Formula One racing.  Clearly, slower driving is more dangerous.



fair...but that cuts both ways.   Given the difference in sample size, and the sample size is small to begin with, it's hard to do a comparison to both, and that's compounded by the fact you have different protocols in both groups.  It is another criticism of the study that is mentioned.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> fair...but that cuts both ways.   Given the difference in sample size, and the sample size is small to begin with, it's hard to do a comparison to both, and that's compounded by the fact you have different protocols in both groups.  It is another criticism of the study that is mentioned.


Sample size variation?   It’s not difficult.   It is a standard question in problem sets for introductory undergraduate statistics classes.  Any biostatistician can handle it without difficulty.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sample size variation?   It’s not difficult.   It is a standard question in problem sets for introductory undergraduate statistics classes.  Any biostatistician can handle it without difficulty.


yes but apparently not them, given the criticism.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> yes but apparently not them, given the criticism.


How would _you_ know?  

A machine learning expert is having a public disagreement with a biostatistician.  You don’t know jack about either field.

Instead, you approve of whichever opinion is closest to the opinion you held in April of 2020.  In this case, the machine learning guy.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How would _you_ know?
> 
> A machine learning expert is having a public disagreement with a biostatistician.  You don’t know jack about either field.
> 
> Instead, you approve of whichever opinion is closest to the opinion you held in April of 2020.  In this case, the machine learning guy.


how's that any different from what you are doing, in which you discount any criticism that contradicts your stated beliefs....Mr. I Never Met an Establishment Expert I Didn't Like.

I'm not the one advancing the argument....which is why I posted it instead of making it myself.  Take it up with the author of the criticism.  

My only point is that there has been criticism that has arisen of the study, which wasn't great for masks to begin with (again cloth masks nothing, surgical under 50 almost nothing, unproven assumption that the modest effects on a small sample size can scale if more people masked).  I find it interesting, partially because of folks like you and the media that have taken the study to signify "Masks Work!" (which BTW I've said i think against the alpha they probably did a little on a micro basis....less so on a macro basis because of the scaling problem)


----------



## Grace T.

The JP Morgan analysis out this am notes that the concern about omicron is probably overblown.  Their clients are less worried about omicron than the impact of government reactions to the omicron.


----------



## Grace T.

this didn't age very well....less than a month....do they ever tire of being wrong?









						Four Measures That Are Helping Germany Beat COVID
					

And why we’re failing to do the same things in America




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> More on the criticism of the numbers released on the Bangladesh study.  Very top line: they made their claims based on a differences of 20 or so cases, that could be accounted for by differences in survey, and which nevertheless showed no difference in cloth masks or for the younger people surgical masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Researchers shoot holes in study touted for confirming 'masks work' in curbing COVID
> 
> 
> Study of 342,000 adults finds masks effective against COVID based on 20 infections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justthenews.com


Ever notice how there seems to be no real strong studies showing masks make much of a difference?


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> this didn't age very well....less than a month....do they ever tire of being wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four Measures That Are Helping Germany Beat COVID
> 
> 
> And why we’re failing to do the same things in America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Why would they, you can win Pulitzers and emmys for being wrong


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> this didn't age very well....less than a month....do they ever tire of being wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four Measures That Are Helping Germany Beat COVID
> 
> 
> And why we’re failing to do the same things in America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Nope. 

- They have very short memories
- They are believers in the sense that maybe this time the stuff that didn't work before will this time.


----------



## Grace T.

Some don't think they'll be able to produce an omicron specific vaccine, given the transmissibility, before it overwhelms the world.  Therefore they hope: a) natural/vaccine immunity holds up against severe disease and/or b) it's mild.  Everyone's going to get it.









						Omicron will likely 'dominate and overwhelm' the world in 3-6 months, doctor says
					

The new Covid variant omicron will likely "overwhelm the whole world" in the coming months, according to Singapore doctor Leong Hoe Nam.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Some don't think they'll be able to produce an omicron specific vaccine, given the transmissibility, before it overwhelms the world.  Therefore they hope: a) natural/vaccine immunity holds up against severe disease and/or b) it's mild.  Everyone's going to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron will likely 'dominate and overwhelm' the world in 3-6 months, doctor says
> 
> 
> The new Covid variant omicron will likely "overwhelm the whole world" in the coming months, according to Singapore doctor Leong Hoe Nam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Funny how we are always a step behind viruses.


----------



## Brav520

Natasha Bertrand has made a career of being wrong , and she keeps failing upwards


Grace T. said:


> Some don't think they'll be able to produce an omicron specific vaccine, given the transmissibility, before it overwhelms the world.  Therefore they hope: a) natural/vaccine immunity holds up against severe disease and/or b) it's mild.  Everyone's going to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron will likely 'dominate and overwhelm' the world in 3-6 months, doctor says
> 
> 
> The new Covid variant omicron will likely "overwhelm the whole world" in the coming months, according to Singapore doctor Leong Hoe Nam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Seems like we will be perpetually “buying time” for forever 

I’m hearing some of the same phrases used at the start, we need 2 weeks , we need to prepare for the worst


----------



## Grace T.

this isn't good news considering how south africa skews younger.  As I outlined above, there's two possible futures right now.  One omicron isn't very lethal, the vaccines do their job against severe disease, more of the same with the blue checks pushing for restrictions and the 2/3 of the rest of the population ready to move on. Two, omicron is as lethal or more lethal than the Delta: widespread social unrest as things get reset basically to square 1 and governments try to impose restrictions on populations and economies nearing breaking points.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466480113487392769


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Some don't think they'll be able to produce an omicron specific vaccine, given the transmissibility, before it overwhelms the world.  Therefore they hope: a) natural/vaccine immunity holds up against severe disease and/or b) it's mild.  Everyone's going to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron will likely 'dominate and overwhelm' the world in 3-6 months, doctor says
> 
> 
> The new Covid variant omicron will likely "overwhelm the whole world" in the coming months, according to Singapore doctor Leong Hoe Nam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


SF patient was vaccinated, and his contacts are coming back negative.  Not much transmission.  

South Africa cases are doubling in 3 days.  Lots of transmission.

It may be that the unvaccinated areas have a lot more to worry about than vaccinated areas.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> SF patient was vaccinated, and his contacts are coming back negative.  Not much transmission.
> 
> South Africa cases are doubling in 3 days.  Lots of transmission.
> 
> It may be that the unvaccinated areas have a lot more to worry about than vaccinated areas.


fingers crossed either vaccines hold up or that it's very mild.  because as I've said, society is at a breaking point...going back to square 1 march 2020 topples the whole thing over.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> fingers crossed either vaccines hold up or that it's very mild.  because as I've said, society is at a breaking point...going back to square 1 march 2020 topples the whole thing over.


"Society is at a breaking point"?  Looks like you are panicking.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Some don't think they'll be able to produce an omicron specific vaccine, given the transmissibility, before it overwhelms the world. Therefore they hope: a) natural/vaccine immunity holds up against severe disease and/or b) it's mild. Everyone's going to get it.


This goes to an issue I had for the first months to year of the whole thing. Blaming T for not stopping the virus. And a lot of people believed that. 

The reality is no matter who is in charge it is going to spread. Just look at the various govs in W Europe to see this is the case. 

It was a completely partisan charge made by a partisan press. 

Everyone is going to get exposed to the virus at some point and time and likely multiple times. 

Look how fast it spread initially. Look at how you see the new variant already popping up all over the world.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Society is at a breaking point"?  Looks like you are panicking.


see Morgan stanley above.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> see Morgan stanley above.


i think large swaths of the country have moved on
now if they re-impose March and April 2020 type restrictions that could change , but people may largely ignore them


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How would _you_ know?
> 
> A machine learning expert is having a public disagreement with a biostatistician.  You don’t know jack about either field.
> 
> Instead, you approve of whichever opinion is closest to the opinion you held in April of 2020.  In this case, the machine learning guy.


further to this....haven't read it all the way through yet, but it seems on point.... boo-yah.



			https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~brecht/papers/CPR_mask_note.pdf
		


p.s. they seem to be suggesting that one of the impacts of the masking might have been to frighten the older people into distancing.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> see Morgan stanley above.


JP Morgan is not Morgan Stanley.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> further to this....haven't read it all the way through yet, but it seems on point.... boo-yah.
> 
> 
> 
> https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~brecht/papers/CPR_mask_note.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. they seem to be suggesting that one of the impacts of the masking might have been to frighten the older people into distancing.


From April, 2020:


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> From April, 2020:
> 
> View attachment 12229


This would work better than a sign.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> From April, 2020:
> 
> View attachment 12229


like it.  The problem is also illustrated in the cartoon: 'I don't want to get sick'.  she thinks the masks is just fine protection so she approaches her friend to have a mask discussion.  Classic.  --^=


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This would work better than a sign.
> 
> View attachment 12230


That picture isn’t at all realistic.  How are you supposed to hide under your bed while wearing that?

 Actually, most people around here don’t do any more than get their booster, wear a mask when indoors, and give people more room on the sidewalk.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> like it.  The problem is also illustrated in the cartoon: 'I don't want to get sick'.  she thinks the masks is just fine protection so she approaches her friend to have a mask discussion.  Classic.  --^=


Look closer.  The characters are drawn smaller so he can show them standing 6 feet apart.  

It’s from April, 2020.  It has aged better than most things written back then.

At that time, you were trying to convince people that masks had a significant risk of infection from touching the outside.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Look closer.  The characters are drawn smaller so he can show them standing 6 feet apart.
> 
> It’s from April, 2020.  It has aged better than most things written back then.
> 
> At that time, you were trying to convince people that masks had a significant risk of infection from touching the outside.


No it hasn't:

a. I thought we had moved off of the entire masks protect me.  Yet she clearly thinks they do 
b. It's unclear if they are indoors or outdoors.  
c. Is it 6 feet....Looks a little closer given their relative sizes?
d. O.k. arguendo 6 feet. She approaches him at 6 feet even though he's unmasked (doing a little gender assuming here) and then proceeds to discuss masks!
e. The 6 foot thing has also been shown to have no basis in science.
f. you like to mischaracterize opinions particularly in situations where you've lost.  You'll recall I said masks help a little....probably most in indoor situations with short contacts (not long like at work or on a plane)...why I speculating on a bunch of reasons including lack of a seal, poor quality masks, viruses building on the surface when you cough or sneeze to later be dislodged, people touching their masks (particularly kids), people (particularly kids) not being able to wear them properly.  Between the 2 of us, 1 of us (not you) was more right than the other, and the main flaw in my reasoning was we believed (from people like you and what you were saying) in the surface transmission of COVID.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> This goes to an issue I had for the first months to year of the whole thing. Blaming T for not stopping the virus. And a lot of people believed that.
> 
> The reality is no matter who is in charge it is going to spread. Just look at the various govs in W Europe to see this is the case.
> 
> It was a completely partisan charge made by a partisan press.
> 
> Everyone is going to get exposed to the virus at some point and time and likely multiple times.
> 
> Look how fast it spread initially. Look at how you see the new variant already popping up all over the world.


We've become such a hysterical and weak society, reacting to every shadow around.  

It's great for business though - Pharma will pivot to redesign and assure us in 30 days they'l have a new batch ready to go, apparently for a variant that isn't as harmful.  Could it be more transmissble..sure, which isn't a bad thing if it's less harmful.  Mutations in virus can be a good thing.  Less lethal, easier to catch, easier to get over, quicker to immunity to this variant.   But no, we'll freak out, crush business in other countries, and continue to not implement a better vaccination plan abroad. With that said, not too many people in SA andother places even want to be vaccinated.  There's the rub.


----------



## Grace T.

Preprint out of the UK.  If it holds it basically confirms what we've been discussing here: natural immunity wanes more slowly than vaccine immunity, there is substantial waning 6 months out on vaccine immunity without boosters.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.29.21267006v1.full.pdf


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No it hasn't:
> 
> a. I thought we had moved off of the entire masks protect me.  Yet she clearly thinks they do
> b. It's unclear if they are indoors or outdoors.
> c. Is it 6 feet....Looks a little closer given their relative sizes?
> d. O.k. arguendo 6 feet. She approaches him at 6 feet even though he's unmasked (doing a little gender assuming here) and then proceeds to discuss masks!
> e. The 6 foot thing has also been shown to have no basis in science.
> f. you like to mischaracterize opinions particularly in situations where you've lost.  You'll recall I said masks help a little....probably most in indoor situations with short contacts (not long like at work or on a plane)...why I speculating on a bunch of reasons including lack of a seal, poor quality masks, viruses building on the surface when you cough or sneeze to later be dislodged, people touching their masks (particularly kids), people (particularly kids) not being able to wear them properly.  Between the 2 of us, 1 of us (not you) was more right than the other, and the main flaw in my reasoning was we believed (from people like you and what you were saying) in the surface transmission of COVID.


When you say “Grace was accurate”, you are error checking against your own opinion.

Put another way, your opinion in April 2020 is an excellent predictor of your opinion in December 2021.   This is unarguably true.  

It is also equivalent to saying “I have learned almost nothing”.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> When you say “Grace was accurate”, you are error checking against your own opinion.
> 
> Put another way, your opinion in April 2020 is an excellent predictor of your opinion in December 2021.   This is unarguably true.
> 
> It is also equivalent to saying “I have learned almost nothing”.



Errr....."You have learned almost nothing"......spoken like a true pastor....even your Bangladesh study (where we started this today) agreed with me on cloth masks.  Guess I was before my time. Boo-yah!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr....."You have learned almost nothing"......spoken like a true pastor....even your Bangladesh study (where we started this today) agreed with me on cloth masks.  Guess I was before my time. Boo-yah!


You _have_ learned nothing.  Reread the study.  

The study does not come to any conclusion at all on cloth masks.   But you think it agrees with you.

The study does come to a conclusion on surgical masks, and it disagrees with you.  But this fact has yet to sink in.

The constancy of your thought patterns remains unparalleled.  If I want to know your opinions on next year’s research, I can look at your posts from last year.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You _have_ learned nothing.  Reread the study.
> 
> The study does not come to any conclusion at all on cloth masks.   But you think it agrees with you.
> 
> The study does come to a conclusion on surgical masks, and it disagrees with you.  But this fact has yet to sink in.
> 
> The constancy of your thought patterns remains unparalleled.  If I want to know your opinions on next year’s research, I can look at your posts from last year.


One of the criticism of the study (which BTW is true is standard operating procedure for such studies) is because it showed no statistically significance re cloth masks  ----> their conclusion they can't make a ruling on cloth masks, but on surgicals (never mind the criticism ranging from small sample, small results, difference in protocols, that surgicals had no statistical significance under 50, and that they then extrapolated to saying it should work even better if more people masked without any evidence to such effect) it's a conclusion.  

and the constancy of my thought pattern???  Please!....nothing holds up next to yours....it's faithfulness to the good book of Covidian.  Otherwise, how else would seriously embrace such topsey turvey, and failing, logic?  Otherwise, how do you embrace those beliefs despite the evidence that those beliefs are crumbling before you?  Otherwise how do you reconcile the behavior in your own life (e.g., masks work but you wear the N95 in the supermarket)? But sure, keep thumping that good book.


----------



## Grace T.

san francisco....preparing to hunker down.









						For a City That Followed Covid Rules, Will Omicron Change the Playbook? (Published 2021)
					

San Francisco has endured mask mandates, vaccination requirements and lockdowns. Now with the first U.S. case of the Omicron variant, no one’s sure what comes next.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush

*White House says domestic travel vaccine requirements on the table due to omicron variant*
*'Nothing is off the table,' Psaki said*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just like virtually all the shit that gets linked here, on both putative "sides".  It gets clicks.


Yeah, no argument - just examples of how the original purpose of journalism is basically dead.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, no argument - just examples of how the original purpose of journalism is basically dead.


Journalism and integrity are not dead. A journalism major near and dear to my heart just turned down a job at OAN, lol!


----------



## Grace T.

"permanent' oregon mask mandate.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466582866674872322


----------



## crush

*Expected Jobs report yesterday*


----------



## crush

*Actual Jobs Report Today!*


----------



## what-happened

Omicron Triggers ‘Unprecedented’ COVID Surge Hitting Children Under Age 5 in South Africa
					

EMMANUEL CROSET/AFP via Getty ImagesThe “highly transmissible” Omicron variant of coronavirus ripping through South Africa is putting disproportionately large numbers of children under 5 years old in hospitals, a top South African government medical adviser said Friday.The alarming development...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Severity of disease still playing out in SA, being watched closely by all.  Shutting down travel after the fact does nothing, look where we are today.  The hope is that Omicron continues to be less severe and that SA and others ramp up their vaccination efforts.  U5 hospitalizion certainly a concern and presents a challenge for treatment.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Journalism and integrity are not dead. A journalism major near and dear to my heart just turned down a job at OAN, lol!


Why do I have the feeling your friends and in this case your journalism friend couldn't spell CAT if they were spotted the c and the t.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> *Actual Jobs Report Today!*
> 
> View attachment 12233


On the bright side , gas is down 2 cents


----------



## Grace T.

a critique of Fauci.  "Science cannot be above questioning".  For Covidians the Science TM is the holy book, and Fauci is their pope.









						Anthony Fauci's dangerous narcissism
					

Science can't be above questioning




					unherd.com


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> a critique of Fauci.  "Science cannot be above questioning".  For Covidians the Science TM is the holy book, and Fauci is their pope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci's dangerous narcissism
> 
> 
> Science can't be above questioning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


Lord Tony is running the show.  Think think think.  He also worked with Jeffrey on Science Experiments and we know he and Bill are besties and they make shots together.  I think I think I think ordinally Libs are waking up and that is a good sign so this BS can go to the next phase.  We need 80% on the side of America first.  I spoke to one of dear liberal pals and he is now in the light.  He called me to say I was right for once.  His pride was think but now he has two ears to listen.


----------



## Grace T.

Here's the fresh new hell for today.  Over 90% (some reports are saying everyone but 1) of the 62 passengers on the flight from South Africa to Amsterdam (14 of which had the omicron) were vaccinated.  if representative:

1. there's no point to vaccine mandates
2. Dutch authorities are considering a vaccine + testing requirement to board a plane.
3.  Biden hinted at that on monday too even for domestic flights (never made sense to me why we require testing for international flights but not domestic ones) in the US
4. People and the airline industry will really hate this one....but hey it's what kids in Lausd are doing weekly.









						Dutch say 14 air passengers from S. Africa with Omicron were vaccinated
					

Dutch health authorities on Thursday said most of the 62 people who tested positive for COVID-19 after arriving on two flights from South Africa last week had been vaccinated, lending weight to a call for pre-flight testing regardless of vaccination status.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## crush

I appreciate what Mr. A has to say about me.  Thank you sir!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Here's the fresh new hell for today.  Over 90% (some reports are saying everyone but 1) of the 62 passengers on the flight from South Africa to Amsterdam (14 of which had the omicron) were vaccinated.  if representative:
> 
> 1. there's no point to vaccine mandates
> 2. Dutch authorities are considering a vaccine + testing requirement to board a plane.
> 3.  Biden hinted at that on monday too even for domestic flights (never made sense to me why we require testing for international flights but not domestic ones) in the US
> 4. People and the airline industry will really hate this one....but hey it's what kids in Lausd are doing weekly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutch say 14 air passengers from S. Africa with Omicron were vaccinated
> 
> 
> Dutch health authorities on Thursday said most of the 62 people who tested positive for COVID-19 after arriving on two flights from South Africa last week had been vaccinated, lending weight to a call for pre-flight testing regardless of vaccination status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Everything so far is consistent with a variant that 
-spreads like wildfire among unvaccinated people, 
-spreads decently from unvaccinated to vaccinated, 
-spreads poorly from vaccinated to vaccinated.

If the above three are all true, you have a disease which spreads primarily through unvaccinated people. 

In that case, a vaccination + testing requirement for flights would slow it down.   Kind of amazing that we don’t do this already.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> a critique of Fauci.  "Science cannot be above questioning".  For Covidians the Science TM is the holy book, and Fauci is their pope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci's dangerous narcissism
> 
> 
> Science can't be above questioning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


The point of science is that its questioned and tested all the time.

you should listen to Ricky on science & god - he sums it up very well

Ricky Gervais And Stephen Go Head-To-Head On Religion - YouTube


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Everything so far is consistent with a variant that
> -spreads like wildfire among unvaccinated people,
> -spreads decently from unvaccinated to vaccinated,
> -spreads poorly from vaccinated to vaccinated.
> 
> If the above three are all true, you have a disease which spreads primarily through unvaccinated people.
> 
> In that case, a vaccination + testing requirement for flights would slow it down.   Kind of amazing that we don’t do this already.











						You ok there, Joe...?
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Everything so far is consistent with a variant that
> 
> -spreads like wildfire among unvaccinated people,
> -spreads decently from unvaccinated to vaccinated,
> -spreads poorly from vaccinated to vaccinated.
> 
> If the above three are all true, you have a disease which spreads primarily through unvaccinated people.
> 
> In that case, a vaccination + testing requirement for flights would slow it down.   Kind of amazing that we don’t do this already.



Please explain your logic process you used to come up with the 
above three step insanity.
I'd really like to see it.

" 1. WHAT IS LOGIC ? 
Logic may be defined as the science of reasoning. However, this is not to suggest that logic is an empirical (i.e., experimental or observational) science like physics, biology, or psychology. Rather, logic is a non-empirical science like mathematics. Also, in saying that logic is the science of reasoning, we do not mean that it is concerned with the actual mental (or physical) process employed by a thinking entity when it is reasoning. The investigation of the actual reasoning process falls more appropriately within the province of psychology, neurophysiology, or cybernetics. Even if these empirical disciplines were considerably more advanced than they presently are, the most they could disclose is the exact process that goes on in a being's head when he or she (or it) is reasoning. They could not, however, tell us whether the being is reasoning correctly or incorrectly. Distinguishing correct reasoning from incorrect reasoning is the task of logic. "

The above quote is from the below link I supplied for
your use.
Below is the link to help you explain your insanity.
Maybe just maybe admit you are dead ass wrong.

c01.pdf (umass.edu)


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Everything so far is consistent with a variant that
> -spreads like wildfire among unvaccinated people,
> -spreads decently from unvaccinated to vaccinated,
> -spreads poorly from vaccinated to vaccinated.
> 
> If the above three are all true, you have a disease which spreads primarily through unvaccinated people.


And so that is a complete guess on your part. 

You have no idea. Nor do the experts. 

But it does fit your belief pattern.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Everything so far is consistent with a variant that
> -spreads like wildfire among unvaccinated people,
> -spreads decently from unvaccinated to vaccinated,
> -spreads poorly from vaccinated to vaccinated.
> 
> If the above three are all true, you have a disease which spreads primarily through unvaccinated people.
> 
> In that case, a vaccination + testing requirement for flights would slow it down.   Kind of amazing that we don’t do this already.



As Hound notes, particularly with the omicron, you don't know that.  What we do know is that the efficacy against disease declines with time, substantially.  We don't know the impact of boosters yet, and we don't know what the impact on transmissibility is, and we don't know how the omicron changes that.   So your third pillar is an unknown: it might not be poor but it might be "descent" as well.

That would point to, under your formulation, that the vaccination variable of your vaccination + testing requirement is superfluous.  Yet, I point out, and as you are amazed as you yourself write, "we don't do this already" and we didn't do it, for domestic flights, pre-vaccination.  So what's changed?

we have a little bit better understanding about transmissibility on airplanes.  The airfilters on the newer jets are really good.  If someone is sick several rows behind you, it probably won't sweep up towards you.  But if someone is sick seated elbow to elbow right next to you or behind you, your N95 on a 6+ hour flight isn't going to stop it.

but some experts, despite the airline propaganda, understood this in March 2020.  So why didn't they require it?  Why are you amazed?  Simple: the public won't tolerate it, particularly a blue check demographic the modern business person that needs to fly.  ironically, when the airplanes were empty, you might have been able to get away with it for a few months.  But that pharma rep that is flying from city to city isn't going to tolerate some 40+ tests a year without lashing out.  It's political and (like school closures) there will be a price to be paid, particularly if, as expected and increasingly demanded by the public (rightly or wrong) it does nothing to "end this" (as Joe Biden rightly or wrong, promised).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As Hound notes, particularly with the omicron, you don't know that.  What we do know is that the efficacy against disease declines with time, substantially.  We don't know the impact of boosters yet, and we don't know what the impact on transmissibility is, and we don't know how the omicron changes that.   So your third pillar is an unknown: it might not be poor but it might be "descent" as well.
> 
> That would point to, under your formulation, that the vaccination variable of your vaccination + testing requirement is superfluous.  Yet, I point out, and as you are amazed as you yourself write, "we don't do this already" and we didn't do it, for domestic flights, pre-vaccination.  So what's changed?
> 
> we have a little bit better understanding about transmissibility on airplanes.  The airfilters on the newer jets are really good.  If someone is sick several rows behind you, it probably won't sweep up towards you.  But if someone is sick seated elbow to elbow right next to you or behind you, your N95 on a 6+ hour flight isn't going to stop it.
> 
> but some experts, despite the airline propaganda, understood this in March 2020.  So why didn't they require it?  Why are you amazed?  Simple: the public won't tolerate it, particularly a blue check demographic the modern business person that needs to fly.  ironically, when the airplanes were empty, you might have been able to get away with it for a few months.  But that pharma rep that is flying from city to city isn't going to tolerate some 40+ tests a year without lashing out.  It's political and (like school closures) there will be a price to be paid, particularly if, as expected and increasingly demanded by the public (rightly or wrong) it does nothing to "end this" (as Joe Biden rightly or wrong, promised).


1). Why vax+test instead of test only?

Incubation period and false negatives.  Some covid positive people will be on the flight, even if you test.  

If vax to vax transmission is lower than other transmission, then adding a vax requirement for flights reduces total transmission as a result of the flight. 


2) Pharma reps will lash out at 40 tests a year?  

I’m not sure how many Pharma reps you know.  The Pharma employees I know are already being tested 52 times a year just to come into the office.  These are people who have a stack of BinaxNOW tests by the front door, just in case they need one.  You could ask them to take 3 tests per flight and they wouldn’t blink.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 1). Why vax+test instead of test only?
> 
> Incubation period and false negatives.  Some covid positive people will be on the flight, even if you test.
> 
> If vax to vax transmission is lower than other transmission, then adding a vax requirement for flights reduces total transmission as a result of the flight.
> 
> 
> 2) Pharma reps will lash out at 40 tests a year?
> 
> I’m not sure how many Pharma reps you know.  The Pharma employees I know are already being tested 52 times a year just to come into the office.  These are people who have a stack of BinaxNOW tests by the front door, just in case they need one.  You could ask them to take 3 tests per flight and they wouldn’t blink.


again, at 1 is a huge unproven assumption right now.


at 2, in socal, most pharma reps are not being tested weekly.  some are required to be vaxxed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> a critique of Fauci.  "Science cannot be above questioning".  For Covidians the Science TM is the holy book, and Fauci is their pope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci's dangerous narcissism
> 
> 
> Science can't be above questioning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


Why are you so frightened by this stuff?


----------



## crush

This is probably the most convincing video to NOT get the shot! So horrible & embarrassing!
					

Video taken from Alpha Punisher. - It's getting more and more embarrassing!  Telegram: https://t.me/alphapunisher1776




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why are you so frightened by this stuff?


of the Covidians?....I'm not, any more than I am of Scientology.....where I get po'd is when they say I have to just shut up and believe what they are saying.  No thanks.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> of the Covidians?....I'm not, any more than I am of Scientology.....where I get po'd is when they say I have to just shut up and believe what they are saying.  No thanks.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


I see we are going back to the old hits:

"Oh Magoo, my dear old boy, you've done it again!"


----------



## Grace T.

Substantial escape by the omicron from natural immunity from other variants.  While it does not prove that with the vaccines, the assumption (since natural immunity has been shown to be generally more robust than vaccine immunity) is it will escape the vaccines too.  Does not speak to protection against severe illness or the severity of the omicron, which is what we are down to now if we are trying to determine is this more of the same or does it set us back to square 1 March 2020.


----------



## espola

Governor lashes out after news report reveals his office buried a study showing mask mandates work ｜ St. Louis Post-Dispatch
					

ST. LOUIS — Missouri Gov. Mike Parson on Thursday said a news story that reported his office had buried a study showing mask mandates work was "purposefully misleading." Parson issued a statement via social media late Thursday, a day after the story was released by the Missouri Independent. The...




					nordot.app


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> 1). Why vax+test instead of test only?
> 
> Incubation period and false negatives.  Some covid positive people will be on the flight, even if you test.
> 
> If vax to vax transmission is lower than other transmission, then adding a vax requirement for flights reduces total transmission as a result of the flight.
> 
> 
> 2) Pharma reps will lash out at 40 tests a year?
> 
> I’m not sure how many Pharma reps you know.  The Pharma employees I know are already being tested 52 times a year just to come into the office.  These are people who have a stack of BinaxNOW tests by the front door, just in case they need one.  You could ask them to take 3 tests per flight and they wouldn’t blink.



1).  Do you have documented proof of Vax to Vax Transmission is lower ?
No you don't.
All of the 14 carriers on the Flight, were the new Fauci Omicron and were fully Vaccinated.
The Virus is degrading, and if you understood just basic Virology you would admit this.
The vaccines are the problem, and as each day goes by the Truth is exposed even more.

2).  Where is the test you refer to made ?

Maine ?
Was/Is.
Then they destroyed all of their current product in late June, early July.
Maker of Rapid Covid Tests Told Factory to Destroy
 Inventory - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

" The BinaxNOW COVID-19 Ag Card 2 Home Test is to be performed only 
with the supervision of a telehealth proctor. *The BinaxNOW COVID-19 Ag 
tests have not been FDA cleared or approved.* They have been authorized 
by the FDA under an emergency use authorization. "

But there is obviously inventory available as it can still be purchased.
But is it accurate ?

I don't trust what i see below.

Effectiveness of Abbott BinaxNOW Rapid Antigen Test for Detection of 
SARS-CoV-2 Infections in Outbreak among Horse Racetrack Workers, 
California, USA - Volume 27, Number 11—November 2021 - Emerging 
Infectious Diseases journal - CDC

We know the PCR test settings were set purposely high from a 24/25 standard
to 40+, that is highly inaccurate at best. And Truthfully that was deliberate to 
set force false positives.

Are the Rapid tests accurate ?
What did they use to test the 14 occupants of the socalled infected flight to 
the Netherlands.
What did they use to test the so convienent one person in Dirty San Franshitco.
Who knows. But they are attempting to recreate Dec 2019 again. 

Inaccurate tests at best that produce the results needed to scare the Global 
lemming again.

None of this is about Covid/SARS-Cov-2 / Covid-19 or any of the variants.
This is ALL about implementing the NWO Agenda-21 Agenda-30.
They crashed an economy to facilitate the destruction of security/individualism
to implement a Global Economy. It's that simple, and the virus is not cooperating 
as they planned. So now the REAL lockdowns/Forced Vaccinations will begin to 
surface across the Globe.
Witness what Austria/Germany/Australia and Now this am what the EU want to do
to unvaccinated humans. I believe there was a Law created to STOP just this crap,
and it was the Nuremberg Law of 1947. 


Vax to Vax infections
Unvax to Vax infections

This whole illogical debate you are attempting is clouding your ability to see
what is really happening across the Globe.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> of the Covidians?....I'm not, any more than I am of Scientology.....where I get po'd is when they say I have to just shut up and believe what they are saying.  No thanks.


I love that if you point out Fauci”s nonsense that somehow that makes you frightened


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> I see we are going back to the old hits:
> 
> "Oh Magoo, my dear old boy, you've done it again!"


I personally have grown to love the one liners


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> I love that if you point out Fauci”s nonsense that somehow that makes you frightened


What is "Fauci's nonsense"?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> What is "Fauci's nonsense"?


The same as Adam Espola Schiff nonsense.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> What is "Fauci's nonsense"?


discussed many times throughout this thread

though I will say I do like the “you”re babbling “ response, I just don’t need that compliment today . My wife already told me that I’m doing a good job this morning , and bought me a Starbucks


----------



## Desert Hound

This is the outcome of the solutions dad liked so much.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466825924146606094


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> again, at 1 is a huge unproven assumption right now.
> 
> 
> at 2, in socal, most pharma reps are not being tested weekly.  some are required to be vaxxed.


2- Might be norcal/socal. 

More likely to be the difference between sales reps and statisticians/scientists.  The people I know up here are all on the science side of it. 



Grace T. said:


> Substantial escape by the omicron from natural immunity from other variants.  While it does not prove that with the vaccines, the assumption (since natural immunity has been shown to be generally more robust than vaccine immunity) is it will escape the vaccines too.  Does not speak to protection against severe illness or the severity of the omicron, which is what we are down to now if we are trying to determine is this more of the same or does it set us back to square 1 March 2020.


Some pretty big logical jumps there.

Cases among previously immune patients is not the same thing as transmission from previously immune patients.  If natural immunity patients are not transmitting much, that makes them a dead end for the virus, and therefore a non-issue.

Same exact issue for vaccine immune patients.   Even if they get infected, if they aren‘t transmitting and are not hospitalized, do we care?

It all comes down to transmission, and we don’t have that data yet.  

If vaccinated and naturally immune patients are transmitting in significant numbers, then your square 1 comment is partially justified.  (only partially, because we know a lot more than we did back then.)

If those patients are not transmitting much, then your comment is completely off base.  In that case, even if they test positive, those natural and vax immune patients are acting as a firewall that slows down the outbreak.

Wait 2 weeks and find out what the stats guys think about transmission from vaccinated and previously infected patients.  Then we’ll know how exposed we are.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> I love that if you point out Fauci”s nonsense that somehow that makes you frightened


Attempting to belittle that which one fears is a common coping mechanism.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This is the outcome of the solutions dad liked so much.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466825924146606094


The underlying problem is that people don't realize we are the same beings that have committed atrocities to others throughout our known history. No one is immune. The only difference now is a culture that has a deeper respect for individual rights. As we chip away at these rights, we inevitably move down a path that will have frightening parallels with the darker times in human history.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Attempting to belittle that which one fears is a common coping mechanism.


so that would mean you and Espola fear a lot of people on this board ?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 2- Might be norcal/socal.
> 
> More likely to be the difference between sales reps and statisticians/scientists.  The people I know up here are all on the science side of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Some pretty big logical jumps there.
> 
> Cases among previously immune patients is not the same thing as transmission from previously immune patients.  If natural immunity patients are not transmitting much, that makes them a dead end for the virus, and therefore a non-issue.
> 
> Same exact issue for vaccine immune patients.   Even if they get infected, if they aren‘t transmitting and are not hospitalized, do we care?
> 
> It all comes down to transmission, and we don’t have that data yet.
> 
> If vaccinated and naturally immune patients are transmitting in significant numbers, then your square 1 comment is partially justified.  (only partially, because we know a lot more than we did back then.)
> 
> If those patients are not transmitting much, then your comment is completely off base.  In that case, even if they test positive, those natural and vax immune patients are acting as a firewall that slows down the outbreak.
> 
> Wait 2 weeks and find out what the stats guys think about transmission from vaccinated and previously infected patients.  Then we’ll know how exposed we are.


1. Yeah my contacts are all on the sales/marketing/distribution end.  And it's not just pharma sales...the beer sales people won't tolerate it either.

2. Fair.  There's topsey turvier things we've seen in this pandemic than you can get sick but not pass it on to others very well.  If I were to bet, I wouldn't put money on it, but I admit it's a possibility.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> 2- Might be norcal/socal.
> 
> More likely to be the difference between sales reps and statisticians/scientists.  The people I know up here are all on the science side of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Some pretty big logical jumps there.
> 
> Cases among previously immune patients is not the same thing as transmission from previously immune patients.  If natural immunity patients are not transmitting much, that makes them a dead end for the virus, and therefore a non-issue.
> 
> Same exact issue for vaccine immune patients.   Even if they get infected, if they aren‘t transmitting and are not hospitalized, do we care?
> 
> It all comes down to transmission, and we don’t have that data yet.
> 
> If vaccinated and naturally immune patients are transmitting in significant numbers, then your square 1 comment is partially justified.  (only partially, because we know a lot more than we did back then.)
> 
> If those patients are not transmitting much, then your comment is completely off base.  In that case, even if they test positive, those natural and vax immune patients are acting as a firewall that slows down the outbreak.
> 
> Wait 2 weeks and find out what the stats guys think about transmission from vaccinated and previously infected patients.  Then we’ll know how exposed we are.


What would we do after 2 weeks?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> What would we do after 2 weeks?


Wear masks - whatever the outcome


----------



## Grace T.

This is good news.  So far all cases mild or asymptomatic in the EU










						Epidemiological update: Omicron variant of concern (VOC) – data as of 3 December 2021 (12.00)
					

As of 3 December and since 2 December 2021, 30 additional SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant of concern (VOC) cases have been confirmed in the European Union and European Economic Area (EU/EEA), contributing to an overall total of 109 confirmed cases so far.




					www.ecdc.europa.eu


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wear masks - whatever the outcome


remember earlier this year when the recommendation from experts was to double mask, I wonder if that is coming back

why stop at 2?


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> What would we do after 2 weeks?


As a country, probably nothing.   Even if it turns out that vax-vax transmission is low, it won't change anyone's mind.  

A low number for vax-vax transmission would convince me that the vax is critical.  My county already has a 90% 12+ vax rate.  So all of us vaccinated people will continue to be happy to be vaccinated.

DeSantis would point to a low vax hospitalization rate and a low vax-vax transmission rate, and ask what the problem is.  Those who are care can get the vax and be protected.

A high vax-vax transmission rate might cause risk averse places like SF to tighten rules.  Reasonable, but don't count on Breed to follow them.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> As a country, probably nothing.   Even if it turns out that vax-vax transmission is low, it won't change anyone's mind.
> 
> A low number for vax-vax transmission would convince me that the vax is critical.  My county already has a 90% 12+ vax rate.  So all of us vaccinated people will continue to be happy to be vaccinated.
> 
> DeSantis would point to a low vax hospitalization rate and a low vax-vax transmission rate, and ask what the problem is.  Those who are care can get the vax and be protected.
> 
> A high vax-vax transmission rate might cause risk averse places like SF to tighten rules.  Reasonable, but don't count on Breed to follow them.


Now you've neglected the other side of the coin.  the other issue is severity.  If it is a cold, even if there is high vax-vax transmission, DeSantis probably does nothing and let's people get their colds.  Some in SF still freak out, there's pressure for SF to move on, but some special interest groups (like teacher's unions) push for more restrictions.

If both transmission and severity are high, De Santis comes under federal pressure since Biden's back is to the wall.  Again problem.  

Here's also the monkey wrench....there's anecdotal evidence from South Africa that this might be hitting children (hospitalizations, not deaths) harder.  It's hard to tell from the chatter if this is just more fear porn (we've seen this story before) or if the script has been flipped.  If it's flipped, all bets off.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Attempting to belittle that which one fears is a common coping mechanism.


You have a lot of " Fears " and they seem to drive you.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> As a country, probably nothing.   Even if it turns out that vax-vax transmission is low, it won't change anyone's mind.
> 
> A low number for vax-vax transmission would convince me that the vax is critical.  My county already has a 90% 12+ vax rate.  So all of us vaccinated people will continue to be happy to be vaccinated.
> 
> DeSantis would point to a low vax hospitalization rate and a low vax-vax transmission rate, and ask what the problem is.  Those who are care can get the vax and be protected.
> 
> A high vax-vax transmission rate might cause risk averse places like SF to tighten rules.  Reasonable, but don't count on Breed to follow them.



The percentage rate of Vaccine failures is climbing rapidly, you could find yourself in
a county that has a high mortality rate in the not so distant future. Just look at the 
growing list of short/long term reactions vaccinated " Beings " are having.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> so that would mean you and Espola fear a lot of people on this board ?


Your insecurities are showing.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your insecurities are showing.


I had no idea you were on this board, Dad


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your insecurities are showing.


Hey man, when are you or Espola going to go "all Golden Gate" on us?  I figured out why you and Espola are so scared.   75 years old and not knowing the truth easy for old folks to deal with and will cause you to be fearful, scared and afraid of the meet up with you know who, who knows everything about you and your pal Espola.  Nothing to be afarid of, just answer honestly and all will go well for your soul.  Everything will be laid bare for all to see.  I can;t wait!!!


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> I had no idea you were on this board, Dad


Dad, Espola or Golden Gate.  I have always said their the same.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> As a country, probably nothing.   Even if it turns out that vax-vax transmission is low, it won't change anyone's mind.
> 
> A low number for vax-vax transmission would convince me that the vax is critical.  My county already has a 90% 12+ vax rate.  So all of us vaccinated people will continue to be happy to be vaccinated.
> 
> DeSantis would point to a low vax hospitalization rate and a low vax-vax transmission rate, and ask what the problem is.  Those who are care can get the vax and be protected.
> 
> A high vax-vax transmission rate might cause risk averse places like SF to tighten rules.  Reasonable, but don't count on Breed to follow them.



The universe hates you, I swear....it seems more than once when you post something (particularly when it's optimistic and hopefully) the universe just back slaps you.  See below.  Anecdotal but first omicron superspreader even in Norway.  Very high vax-vax transmission (80-90 people out of 120...some not even present at the event but at the restaurant), but so far low severity.  if the severity turns out to be high, we are looking at a square 1 situation with massive civil unrest (yes espola, if the severity turns out to be high, you can say then "You're panicking")


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466875096212119556


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> The underlying problem is that people don't realize we are the same beings that have committed atrocities to others throughout our known history. No one is immune. The only difference now is a culture that has a deeper respect for individual rights. As we chip away at these rights, we inevitably move down a path that will have frightening parallels with the darker times in human history.


It is a lack of historical knowledge. Everything today is new under the Sun type mentality.

It really doesn't take much for people or governments to overreach.

I always like to say...despite our advancements in a variety of fields...we are still fundamentally the same people as were lets say the Romans. By that I mean the thing that drove them then, drives most today. Fear, greed, lust, pride...other emotions. And decisions are driven on those things. 

We tame it down, but it bubbles underneath the surface.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> A low number for vax-vax transmission would convince me that the vax is critical. My county already has a 90% 12+ vax rate. So all of us vaccinated people will continue to be happy to be vaccinated.


And despite that...you guys live in fear. Mask up here, show papers there. 

No way to live your life son.


----------



## Grace T.

Generally good news re severity on the vaccinated and previously ill....if so this might end with everyone (given the norway superspreader event) having to catch a cold.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## crush

I'm told it's a blessing to catch these little boogers naturally ((if you dont have underlying health issues)) and use your immune system from Creator and then let the little pest mutate and then your body is like Superman and can crush the bastards.  For best results, please follow crush's healthy lifestyle.  Confess sins ((walk in the light)).  No meat. No booze.  No Ice Cream.  Eat only healthy and organic.  Fruits, salads and veggies with some nuts.  Thai food is excellent.  I got the Rona Jan 20th, 2020 and probably the Delta as well this year.  It's great to walk around with no fear you guys.  I wear a mask when asked to so I dont anger the old scared people like Espola.  Dude is 75 and he's got some explaining to do with the man upstairs.  Also, I promise if I feel sick i will stay home and stay in my room.  I look forward to celebrating the lovely Holidays with my loved ones, vaccinated or not.  Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas   I know WHO is looking for a Dark Winter.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> remember earlier this year when the recommendation from experts was to double mask, I wonder if that is coming back
> 
> why stop at 2?


Remember when razors for your beard had one blade?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> And despite that...you guys live in fear. Mask up here, show papers there.
> 
> No way to live your life son.


There are a lot of people who spent too much time these past two years worried about how not to die and not enough time actually living.


----------



## crush

Wow, just got off the phone with a cool pal from old days.  Dude was told Jab by next week or be put on unpaid leave.  Well, his boss man said today they now can't enforce and all is well.  However, this is a big company and many of the workers got jabbed already and feel tricked to keep job.  One is not doing very well sick wise and is resting at home but freaking out.  He's also pissed off because he got jabbed and others got out of it.  He was one of the heavier workers and not healthy.  He has a point and this seems unfair for Employers.  Let's say the guy who took the jab dies all of sudden? Now what?


----------



## N00B

kickingandscreaming said:


> There are a lot of people who spent too much time these past two years worried about how not to die and not enough time actually living.


With the case rate at present in CA, we’d all be in the deep purple tier if the ‘science’ hadn’t changed.  Wait… nope, still the same science, must’ve been something else.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> There are a lot of people who spent too much time these past two years worried about how not to die and not enough time actually living.


I think it's funny that the most likely scenario shaping up right now is one which people who have been living with might actually be comfortable (if not thrilled) with but which will terrify the Covidians.  A variant which rapidly becomes dominant (too quickly and in the worse time seasonally in the northern hemisphere for a vaccine update to do any good), is highly transmissible even vaxxed to vaxxed, but is relatively mild (at least for the vaxxed).  Politically it means the vaxx mandates are in tatters, the public unwilling to accept further restrictions, mask theater won't do much good, and everyone (even those terrified of catching COVID) is going to come down with the bad cold.  Again, way too early to tell for sure, but that's what the early tea leaves are saying.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I think it's funny that the most likely scenario shaping up right now is one which people who have been living with might actually be comfortable (if not thrilled) with but which will terrify the Covidians.  A variant which rapidly becomes dominant (too quickly and in the worse time seasonally in the northern hemisphere for a vaccine update to do any good), is highly transmissible even vaxxed to vaxxed, but is relatively mild (at least for the vaxxed).  Politically it means the vaxx mandates are in tatters, the public unwilling to accept further restrictions, mask theater won't do much good, and everyone (even those terrified of catching COVID) is going to come down with the bad cold.  Again, way too early to tell for sure, but that's what the early tea leaves are saying.


The Covidiots or Covidians?


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Wow, just got off the phone with a cool pal from old days.  Dude was told Jab by next week or be put on unpaid leave.  Well, his boss man said today they now can't enforce and all is well.  However, this is a big company and many of the workers got jabbed already and feel tricked to keep job.  One is not doing very well sick wise and is resting at home but freaking out.  He's also pissed off because he got jabbed and others got out of it.  He was one of the heavier workers and not healthy.  He has a point and this seems unfair for Employers.  Let's say the guy who took the jab dies all of sudden? Now what?


"Pfizer has been hesitant to go into some of the countries because of the liability problems, they don’t have a liability shield" - World Bank President David Malpass


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> There are a lot of people who spent too much time these past two years worried about how not to die and not enough time actually living.


Who? Where? Everyone I know took precautions and lived their lives. Have you seen this personally or is this a hunch, a guess or something you were told?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I think it's funny that the most likely scenario shaping up right now is one which people who have been living with might actually be comfortable (if not thrilled) with but which will terrify the Covidians.  A variant which rapidly becomes dominant (too quickly and in the worse time seasonally in the northern hemisphere for a vaccine update to do any good), is highly transmissible even vaxxed to vaxxed, but is relatively mild (at least for the vaxxed).  Politically it means the vaxx mandates are in tatters, the public unwilling to accept further restrictions, mask theater won't do much good, and everyone (even those terrified of catching COVID) is going to come down with the bad cold.  Again, way too early to tell for sure, but that's what the early tea leaves are saying.


I'd be very satisfied with that scenario.

Is there any evidence that suggests COVID will "run out" of mutations that will escape vaccines? Florida pretty much gave up with the mask mandates 15 months ago. I can't imagine the scenario above encouraging them to adopt mask mandates again and I also can't imagine that scenario will encourage CA to give up mask mandates. I wonder how long until CA actually gives up mask mandates? It's your "off ramp" question, really.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'd be very satisfied with that scenario.
> 
> Is there any evidence that suggests COVID will "run out" of mutations that will escape vaccines? Florida pretty much gave up with the mask mandates 15 months ago. I can't imagine the scenario above encouraging them to adopt mask mandates again and I also can't imagine that scenario will encourage CA to give up mask mandates. I wonder how long until CA actually gives up mask mandates? It's your "off ramp" question, really.


Yeah, but certain Covidians will be terrified of it.  I worry about their mental sanity.

There is one scenario to suggest COVID runs out of mutations: what happened in Japan.  But with omicron it's looking more like just an evolutionary dead end fluke and Japan will go back up once it opens its borders and the omicron gets settled.

I was just in another forum discussing the offramp.  I'm increasingly convinced short of a handful of scenarios which involve a limited set of circumstances (e.g., the pending war in the Ukraine, Joe Biden falls ill), that the only off ramp is the complete and total annihilation of the Democrats in 2022, which (due in part to factors beyond their control and which only the Supreme Court might slightly alleviate them from) is becoming increasingly inevitable.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but certain Covidians will be terrified of it.  I worry about their mental sanity.
> 
> There is one scenario to suggest COVID runs out of mutations: what happened in Japan.  But with omicron it's looking more like just an evolutionary dead end fluke and Japan will go back up once it opens its borders and the omicron gets settled.
> 
> I was just in another forum discussing the offramp.  I'm increasingly convinced short of a handful of scenarios which involve a limited set of circumstances (e.g., the pending war in the Ukraine, Joe Biden falls ill), that the only off ramp is the complete and total annihilation of the Democrats in 2022, which (due in part to factors beyond their control and which only the Supreme Court might slightly alleviate them from) is becoming increasingly inevitable.


Coocoo.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but certain Covidians will be terrified of it.  I worry about their mental sanity.
> 
> There is one scenario to suggest COVID runs out of mutations: what happened in Japan.  But with omicron it's looking more like just an evolutionary dead end fluke and Japan will go back up once it opens its borders and the omicron gets settled.
> 
> I was just in another forum discussing the offramp.  I'm increasingly convinced short of a handful of scenarios which involve a limited set of circumstances (e.g., the pending war in the Ukraine, Joe Biden falls ill), that the only off ramp is the complete and total annihilation of the Democrats in 2022, which (due in part to factors beyond their control and which only the Supreme Court might slightly alleviate them from) is becoming increasingly inevitable.


We will be terrified?

Thanks for the tip.  I'll put that on my to do list. 

You do much better when you focus on explaining your own point of view.  Your attempts to speak for the opposite side come off as annoying and uninformed.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We will be terrified?
> 
> Thanks for the tip.  I'll put that on my to do list.
> 
> You do much better when you focus on explaining your own point of view.  Your attempts to speak for the opposite side come off as annoying and uninformed.


Annoying= “I don’t like that you are pointing out obvious things that make me uncomfortable”

Uniformed= “you are a heretic that doesn’t understand the true faith”

In any case I didn’t say “all”. I said “certain”. And I purposefully didn’t call you out by name, though your wearing an n95 to the market (which primarily is geared to protecting you and not others and which either points out you are concerned about yourself or you don’t really believe your own rhetoric about masks work) does make me suspect that (whether you admit it or not) you would be uncomfortable with that scenario. I’d also take you at your word were you to say yeah while not thrilled I’m not particularly frightened of catching covid (though to date I don’t think we’ve heard you say that).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


“Oh Magoo old chap, you’ve done it again!”


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The universe hates you, I swear....it seems more than once when you post something (particularly when it's optimistic and hopefully) the universe just back slaps you.  See below.  Anecdotal but first omicron superspreader even in Norway.  Very high vax-vax transmission (80-90 people out of 120...some not even present at the event but at the restaurant), but so far low severity.  if the severity turns out to be high, we are looking at a square 1 situation with massive civil unrest (yes espola, if the severity turns out to be high, you can say then "You're panicking")
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466875096212119556


Ugh.  75% attack rate.

High transmission among vax, high transmission among previously infected, and high hospitalization rate among the young.

Hope it doesn't hold up as new data comes in.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Ugh.  75% attack rate.
> 
> High transmission among vax, high transmission among previously infected, and high hospitalization rate among the young.
> 
> Hope it doesn't hold up as new data comes in.


Yeah this is one time I wish you had been absolutely right on the money

the high hospitalization among the young is suspect.South Africa skews extremely young and they’ve been doing vaccination by age band. There’s also some skew because South Africa counts as hospitalized er visits. But we really don’t know about this one yet

the others we have good data points already and then there were the models too.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> “Oh Magoo old chap, you’ve done it again!”


Please explain a non-crazy biological basis for "run out of mutations".


----------



## crush

*Last year any time someone died, it was always, "Covid 19 Death."  The death counts were insane and the cause of death was always Rona.  Now when someone dies it reads, "Cause of death is unclear."  *


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*NEW - FDA warns of increased risk of major cardiac-related problems in some patients from Pfizer's Xeljanz drug (Reuters)*

*Just like we've been saying for a damn year. *


----------



## crush

Camps are now open for business.  The key is to never get caught.  The hunters will be hunted, mark my words.  Hold the line everyone on the side of the truth.  The truth will win out and the losers will pay dearly.  Our eyes are watching!!!


----------



## MicPaPa

crush said:


> *Last year any time someone died, it was always, "Covid 19 Death."  The death counts were insane and the cause of death was always Rona.  Now when someone dies it reads, "Cause of death is unclear."  *


TDS


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Please explain a non-crazy biological basis for "run out of mutations".


It’s above. I posted the study days ago. I don’t know if it’s right or wrong but that’s why they are postulating covid collapsed in Japan while at the same time is seasonally exploding in south korea

do better. Try and keep up if you want to play


----------



## crush

*Biden goes out to eat maskless in DC despite cold, with Kennedy Center event on Sunday*
*Biden was seen maskless after press secretary Jen Psaki said DC should reinstate its mask mandate to abide by CDC guidelines

P.S.  Dude is 79 years old and his face has no wrinkles.  WTF?  Look at this normal 79 year old.

*


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> There are a lot of people who spent too much time these past two years worried about how not to die and not enough time actually living.











						Anxiety about coronavirus can increase the risk of infection — but exercise can help
					

The immune system can respond to stress in ways that harm health. But there’s a stress-buster that can help keep you calm and healthy: exercise.




					www.google.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s above. I posted the study days ago. I don’t know if it’s right or wrong but that’s why they are postulating covid collapsed in Japan while at the same time is seasonally exploding in south korea
> 
> do better. Try and keep up if you want to play


Handwaving does not overcome a denial of basic biology.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Annoying= “I don’t like that you are pointing out obvious things that make me uncomfortable”
> 
> Uniformed= “you are a heretic that doesn’t understand the true faith”
> 
> In any case I didn’t say “all”. I said “certain”. And I purposefully didn’t call you out by name, though your wearing an n95 to the market (which primarily is geared to protecting you and not others and which either points out you are concerned about yourself or you don’t really believe your own rhetoric about masks work) does make me suspect that (whether you admit it or not) you would be uncomfortable with that scenario. I’d also take you at your word were you to say yeah while not thrilled I’m not particularly frightened of catching covid (though to date I don’t think we’ve heard you say that).


As long as you think of ”do masks work” as a yes/no question, it won’t make any sense.

Their effectiveness is neither zero nor one.  It’s in the middle.

That makes them ineffective as personal protection, but very effective on a population wide scale…. if your population does the basics like moving life outside and giving other people some space.

It’s your micro/macro distinction, except you’ve had it backwards the whole time.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> As long as you think of ”do masks work” as a yes/no question, it won’t make any sense.
> 
> Their effectiveness is neither zero nor one.  It’s in the middle.
> 
> That makes them ineffective as personal protection, but very effective on a population wide scale…. if your population does the basics like moving life outside and giving other people some space.
> 
> It’s your micro/macro distinction, except you’ve had it backwards the whole time.


Where our disagreement has been is you say “in the middle” which on a macro basis I find laughable given the effects we see worldwide (even in vaxx plus mask areas). The correct answer is “a little” which helped a bit against the prime, not much against the delta and probably does bubkis against omicron.

And I have it backwards? I’m not the one who wears an n95 to the supermarket. Your n95 does nothing to add to the collective welfare. If the collective welfare is your concern that’s an indication you either: a. Don’t believe your own rhetoric about masks or b. Are scared and concerned for yourself.

finally I find it laughable that you think people are moving things outside and giving people space still. See pictures of bars in New York?  Thanksgiving in the northeast?  The mayor up their repeatedly partying?  Even most blue checks aren’t doing that except in places they can pressure point like schools (my last business trip a month ago 30% of the airport had chin diapers). Distancing might be Shangri la to an introvert like you…most people won’t do it for 3 plus years and if govt tries to force it at this point you see mass civil unrest.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Where our disagreement has been is you say “in the middle” which on a macro basis I find laughable given the effects we see worldwide (even in vaxx plus mask areas). The correct answer is “a little” which helped a bit against the prime, not much against the delta and probably does bubkis against omicron.
> 
> And I have it backwards? I’m not the one who wears an n95 to the supermarket. Your n95 does nothing to add to the collective welfare. If the collective welfare is your concern that’s an indication you either: a. Don’t believe your own rhetoric about masks or b. Are scared and concerned for yourself.
> 
> finally I find it laughable that you think people are moving things outside and giving people space still. See pictures of bars in New York?  Thanksgiving in the northeast?  The mayor up their repeatedly partying?  Even most blue checks aren’t doing that except in places they can pressure point like schools (my last business trip a month ago 30% of the airport had chin diapers). Distancing might be Shangri la to an introvert like you…most people won’t do it for 3 plus years and if govt tries to force it at this point you see mass civil unrest.


Ps even your vaunted Bangladesh study if you discount all the criticism and note it was mostly pre delta doesn’t show it will work on a population wide basis. All the evidence (even looking at Scotland v England or orange v Los Angeles county) show it doesn’t. But that’s the essence of religion and belief in a talisman…you’ll never give it up as a matter if faith.


----------



## crush

I was talking to a manager at a big box store the other day and he was so stressed out trying to be the mandate enforcer and ref when people argue or fight.  Coaches are feeling the stress as well.  They just want to coach, not be the health inspector.  Even LeBron is getting pissed off finally and finds this all so inconvenient to his life and family.  Think how hard it must be for those who got fired from their jobs because they said no to this BS.


*Bucs' Bruce Arians tries moving on from players' vax card drama: 'I don't give a s--- about that'*
*Antonio Brown was accused of submitting a fake vaccination card last month*

*Los Angeles Lakers' LeBron James 'frustrated' by NBA's COVID-19 testing process*
((So are we bro.  Some of us got fired and some can;t work because of how Covid 19 is being used to divide all of us against each other.  I and others just want to be left alone and to be free and earn a buck like the next guy or girl.  

More from my new pal LeBron.  We need you big time.  You have a big head and loud voice.  Help us and we will help you.  

*"Usually when you have a positive test*, they'll test you right away to make sure," James said. "There was not a follow-up test after my positive test. It was straight to isolation and you've been put into protocol. That's the part that kind of angered me. I had to figure out a way to get home from Sacramento by myself. *They wouldn't allow anyone to travel with me*, no security, *no anything*, when I traveled back from Sacramento.

*"And then I had to put my kids in isolation for the time being, the people in my household in isolation for the time being, so it was just a big-time inconvenience. That was the anger part."*

I feel your pain brother Lebron.  Look man, I know a man WHO lost his job over the Covid 19 testing.  Insane, right? I know another man whose papa was dying and he was not allowed to say good bye, except through a window.  Crazy, right?  I know a girl who won't and can't get the shot because of Asthma attack and another girl because it's against her Native American Tribes teaching about this.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Where our disagreement has been is you say “in the middle” which on a macro basis I find laughable given the effects we see worldwide (even in vaxx plus mask areas). The correct answer is “a little” which helped a bit against the prime, not much against the delta and probably does bubkis against omicron.
> 
> And I have it backwards? I’m not the one who wears an n95 to the supermarket. Your n95 does nothing to add to the collective welfare. If the collective welfare is your concern that’s an indication you either: a. Don’t believe your own rhetoric about masks or b. Are scared and concerned for yourself.
> 
> finally I find it laughable that you think people are moving things outside and giving people space still. See pictures of bars in New York?  Thanksgiving in the northeast?  The mayor up their repeatedly partying?  Even most blue checks aren’t doing that except in places they can pressure point like schools (my last business trip a month ago 30% of the airport had chin diapers). Distancing might be Shangri la to an introvert like you…most people won’t do it for 3 plus years and if govt tries to force it at this point you see mass civil unrest.


Can we discuss things without going off on tangents?  We start talking about the difference between individual and population scale protections.  The next paragraph, you’re discussing the fact that the mayor of SF is a self-absorbed twit.  Ok.  She’s a twit.  Can we stay on topic?

As I said, you have it backwards.

A 50% reduction to transmission doesn’t mean much to an individual suffering repeated exposure over a prolonged period.  Eventually, you get unlucky.

A 50% reduction to transmission for a population is the difference between a disease that goes nowhere and a disease which doubles every 2 weeks.

More simply, masks are minorly effective on an individual scale, but reasonable effective on a population scale.  

What you do with that information is up to you.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Can we discuss things without going off on tangents?  We start talking about the difference between individual and population scale protections.  The next paragraph, you’re discussing the fact that the mayor of SF is a self-absorbed twit.  Ok.  She’s a twit.  Can we stay on topic?
> 
> As I said, you have it backwards.
> 
> A 50% reduction to transmission doesn’t mean much to an individual suffering repeated exposure over a prolonged period.  Eventually, you get unlucky.
> 
> A 50% reduction to transmission for a population is the difference between a disease that goes nowhere and a disease which doubles every 2 weeks.
> 
> More simply, masks are minorly effective on an individual scale, but reasonable effective on a population scale.
> 
> What you do with that information is up to you.


You math guys always mess up the assumptions. Again it’s why they don’t trust you with the big decisions. Just because you have a50% (which is laughable…no one has found that) individual basis does not mean it scales to a population basis. The micro is actually an incidence count. The MACRO IS FOR THE VERY REASON YOU OUTLINE: repeated exposures and (the variable you ALWAYS miss time and time again…little pun) time. It’s called the scaling problem in economics. There’s also the imperfections curve (that as you scale little errors creep in like people not wearing masks properly). You’ve just disproven your own beliefs, you don’t even realize it, and because of your blind faith you don’t even see it

you are like mr Pitt staring at the 3D painting right now.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Ugh.  75% attack rate.
> 
> High transmission among vax, high transmission among previously infected, and high hospitalization rate among the young.
> 
> Hope it doesn't hold up as new data comes in.


Mutations tend to skew towards less dangerous, but not always.  I don't think anyone is suprised that we have a mutation that is more transmissable, is better at evading immunity, but appears to be less severe.  Jury is still out on severity and the U5 data is troubling, especially if deaths follow.

In this part of the world, where NGOs are very effective at executing mass public health initiatives, we've given them little to no support.  Africa presents many logistical issues and are always a step behind, needing assistance across the spectrum.  Simple things like syringe availablity, storage capacity, etc.  Don't worry, SC county will weather a potential omicron outbreak just fine, as will most of CA.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who?Where?Everyone I know took precautions and lived their lives.
> Have you seen this personally or is this a hunch, a guess or something you were told?


* Who?
Just about every person with a ( D ) behind there name.

* Where?
America

* Everyone I know took precautions and lived their lives. 
You live on the internet, doesn't count.

* Have you seen this personally or is this a hunch, a guess or something you were told?
Spit out the Blue pill and go outside.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Can we discuss things without going off on tangents?  We start talking about the difference between individual and population scale protections.  The next paragraph, you’re discussing the fact that the mayor of SF is a self-absorbed twit.  Ok.  She’s a twit.  Can we stay on topic?
> 
> As I said, you have it backwards.
> 
> A 50% reduction to transmission doesn’t mean much to an individual suffering repeated exposure over a prolonged period.  Eventually, you get unlucky.
> 
> A 50% reduction to transmission for a population is the difference between a disease that goes nowhere and a disease which doubles every 2 weeks.
> 
> More simply, masks are minorly effective on an individual scale, but reasonable effective on a population scale.
> 
> What you do with that information is up to you.


I'm sure you're not a Dr.
What's worrying is you think so.


----------



## crush

Take this with a grain of salt:  To all those who said no to the pressure to take the jab to be liked by others and safe face and said, "yes" to losing your lively hood over saying, "no" cheers to you!!!


----------



## thirteenknots

WOW......There is going to be a Huge awakening in 6 - 12 months of people who realize
they've been Jim Jones Koolaid duped by the Fauci " Kill Shot ".

Below is an updated ( Dec 3rd, 2021 ) link by a Dr Coleman who is ever increasing
the list of individuals adversely affected/Killed by the 1,2,3 or more Covid Jabs.

Look at the increase in Feild Sports players having serious heart conditions
while playing, everyone had the " Jab ".

This is beyond sad anymore, it's just plain EVIL and GRUESOME.

UPDATED: How Many People Are the Vaccines Killing? | Dr Vernon Coleman


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> WOW......There is going to be a Huge awakening in 6 - 12 months of people who realize
> they've been Jim Jones Koolaid duped by the Fauci " Kill Shot ".
> 
> Below is an updated ( Dec 3rd, 2021 ) link by a Dr Coleman who is ever increasing
> the list of individuals adversely affected/Killed by the 1,2,3 or more Covid Jabs.
> 
> Look at the increase in Feild Sports players having serious heart conditions
> while playing, everyone had the " Jab ".
> 
> This is beyond sad anymore, it's just plain EVIL and GRUESOME.
> 
> UPDATED: How Many People Are the Vaccines Killing? | Dr Vernon Coleman


I took down my satire pic.  This is not something to take lightly anymore.  The desperation of these people to get people to take a shot is crazy and I would wait until more facts come out until you do any more injections.  I'm a light hearted guy and make satire to talk about taboo subjects and subjects no one dare talk about.  It takes a Scorpio man to deal with these Psychopaths who become killers.  I'm not going to make anymore jokes about this and no more funny and goofy memes.  Were past being cute & funny.  This is hitting close to home and friends.  I just got off the phone with a pal who works with someone who died, "unknown cause at this time."  Yes he got all the jabs but no one wants to admit the Elephant in the room.  Last year, it would be a Covid 19 death 100%.  BTW, take the following "DELTA" & "OMICROM" and you spell, "Media Control."  This is 100% worse then the Jim Jones Kool Aid.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> I took down my satire pic.  This is not something to take lightly anymore.  The desperation of these people to get people to take a shot is crazy and I would wait until more facts come out until you do any more injections.  I'm a light hearted guy and make satire to talk about taboo subjects and subjects no one dare talk about.  It takes a Scorpio man to deal with these Psychopaths who become killers.  I'm not going to make anymore jokes about this and no more funny and goofy memes.  Were past being cute & funny.  This is hitting close to home and friends.  I just got off the phone with a pal who works with someone who died, "unknown cause at this time."  Yes he got all the jabs but no one wants to admit the Elephant in the room.  Last year, it would be a Covid 19 death 100%.  BTW, take the following "DELTA" & "OMICROM" and you spell, "Media Control."  This is 100% worse then the Jim Jones Kool Aid.



I've realized how bad this was/and now is for a long long while.
Many people have hated on me for telling the TRUTH, and now 
some of those same are coming back around rather sheepishly.
I welcome them back no matter what. 
The propaganda on this " Agenda " is really hard to convey to 
certain individuals. 
The amount of EVIL that has surfaced in society recently is Truely
disturbing. 



For some it's quite hard to realize they've sold their.....

For :



In exchange for :


*TRUTH and FREEDOM*


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Handwaving does not overcome a denial of basic biology.


I have no dog in the hunt whether the study is right or wrong. I just found it fascinating. To pull a dad4, I didn’t know you had epidemiological chops. They must given your other wisdom here be formidible to be so opining on the biological processes. I look forward to your treatise on why the theory is so obviously wrong. Make sure to send it to Japan asap “Salute, don corleone!”


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I have no dog in the hunt whether the study is right or wrong. I just found it fascinating. To pull a dad4, I didn’t know you had epidemiological chops. They must given your other wisdom here be formidible to be so opining on the biological processes. I look forward to your treatise on why the theory is so obviously wrong. Make sure to send it to Japan asap “Salute, don corleone!”


Just more handwaving.  Referring back to your previous mistakes and then disavowing them is not a valid argument.

You don't need to be an epidemiologist to understand basic biology.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Just more handwaving.  Referring back to your previous mistakes and then disavowing them is not a valid argument.
> 
> You don't need to be an epidemiologist to understand basic biology.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Just more handwaving.  Referring back to your previous mistakes and then disavowing them is not a valid argument.
> 
> You don't need to be an epidemiologist to understand basic biology.


Your arguments have degenerated to a handful of pithy phrases ranging from the classic “nonsense” to “handwaiving” to “strawman” and “gaslighting”. The best part is you don’t understand most of them.

yeah yeah yeah…I know: “I’m smart…I can do things…It’s not like I’m dumb…I’m smart”


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your arguments have degenerated to a handful of pithy phrases ranging from the classic “nonsense” to “handwaiving” to “strawman” and “gaslighting”. The best part is you don’t understand most of them.
> 
> yeah yeah yeah…I know: “I’m smart…I can do things…It’s not like I’m dumb…I’m smart”


Usually, I ignore your posts full of scattered conclusions with no backup facts.  Occasionally, I see something so egregious that I can't let it pass without comment.


----------



## Brav520

Merriam Webster definition


*anti-vaxxer*
noun
Save Word
To save this word, you'll need to log in.
Log In  

an·ti-vax·xer |  \ ˌan-tē-ˈvak-sər   , ˌan-ˌtī-  \
plural anti-vaxxers
*Definition of anti-vaxxer*

: a person who opposes the use of vaccinesor regulations mandating vaccination


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Usually, I ignore your posts full of scattered conclusions with no backup facts.  Occasionally, I see something so egregious that I can't let it pass without comment.


Your comedy is one of the reasons we all come here. In any case my post was backed up. Days ago. As usual you couldn’t follow along and I have no dog in the hunt for the veracity of that theory.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your comedy is one of the reasons we all come here. In any case my post was backed up. Days ago. As usual you couldn’t follow along and I have no dog in the hunt for the veracity of that theory.


No, it wasn't.


----------



## crush

*E.U. chief calls for throwing out Nuremberg Code*

Ursula Van Der Leyen, the head of the EU commission, told the press on Wednesday that she is in favor of scrapping the long-standing Nuremburg Code and forcing people to get vaccinated against COVID.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> No, it wasn't.


Claiming a victory when defeated is what nutters like her do, we both know that, Roy Cohn 101.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
					

SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				



There is no “I” in team
FREEDUMB costs SDSU a better chance


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no “I” in team
> FREEDUMB costs SDSU a better chance


Liar!!!


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no “I” in team
> FREEDUMB costs SDSU a better chance


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

We went from 15 Days to Slow The Spread to let's Abolish The Nuremberg Code


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Claiming a victory when defeated is what nutters like her do, we both know that, Roy Cohn 101.


Claiming something is unsupported because he either missed, couldn’t follow along, or is to lazy to look back is what idiots like espola do, and we all know that.  Magoo 101.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Claiming something is unsupported because he either missed, couldn’t follow along, or is to lazy to look back is what idiots like espola do, and we all know that.  Magoo 101.


Hey Grace T, let's try and be nice to the old man near the end of the line.  I have forgiven him for his nonsense.  He obviously is living in the lowest frequency their is for a human on earth.  Poor guy.  I see how much you have learned.  I like how you teach because you give both sides and you provide links.  I'm hear to teach as well.  I have a different style of teaching.


----------



## crush

"That ban was done at a time when we were really in the dark – *we had no idea about what was going on*, except that there had been an explosion of cases of omicron in South Africa," Fauci said on "State of the Union." 

First time he he was honest.  Progress takes times folks.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Usually, I ignore your posts full of scattered conclusions with no backup facts.  Occasionally, I see something so egregious that I can't let it pass without comment.


Triggered.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no “I” in team
> FREEDUMB costs SDSU a better chance


Strawman


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Just more handwaving.  Referring back to your previous mistakes and then disavowing them is not a valid argument.
> 
> You don't need to be an epidemiologist to understand basic biology.


But you can always mandate what you donʻt understand.  Please continue with your scatalogical eloquence.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Claiming something is unsupported because he either missed, couldn’t follow along, or is to lazy to look back is what idiots like espola do, and we all know that.  Magoo 101.


I thought you had no dog in this hunt.  

Please explain a non-crazy biological basis for "run out of mutations".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> View attachment 12255


Wow, those two brothers had quite a fall. It reminds me of one of my dad's favorite sayings, "The higher a monkey climbs, the more his ass shows."


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wow, those two brothers had quite a fall. It reminds me of one of my dad's favorite sayings, "The higher a monkey climbs, the more his ass shows."


Are you starting to see what this is really about?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Are you starting to see what this is really about?


What it's always about, @crush, power, money, vanity, and moral superiority - but it all starts with power.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I thought you had no dog in this hunt.
> 
> Please explain a non-crazy biological basis for "run out of mutations".


Again see the discussion from beginning of the week re what’s happening in Japan.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Hey Grace T, let's try and be nice to the old man near the end of the line.  I have forgiven him for his nonsense.  He obviously is living in the lowest frequency their is for a human on earth.  Poor guy.  I see how much you have learned.  I like how you teach because you give both sides and you provide links.  I'm hear to teach as well.  I have a different style of teaching.


“He tasks me…he tasks me and I shall have him.”


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again see the discussion from beginning of the week re what’s happening in Japan.


This is like "Who's on first?"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again see the discussion from beginning of the week re what’s happening in Japan.


Japan was barely mentioned in the last week before your "run out of mutations" nonsense.

This is typical Grace argument technique -- post a lot of unsupported conclusions, then when one statemnt is challenged, refer back to the older crap as if it supported the newer crap.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Japan was barely mentioned in the last week before your "run out of mutations" nonsense.
> 
> This is typical Grace argument technique -- post a lot of unsupported conclusions, then when one statemnt is challenged, refer back to the older crap as if it supported the newer crap.


Again not my theory.

and this is the typical magoo playbook: forgetfulness, laziness and a lack of comprehension.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again not my theory.
> 
> and this is the typical magoo playbook: forgetfulness, laziness and a lack of comprehension.


It's nobody's theory but your own.

"Lack of comprehension" has been your dustoff for critics for years, hasn't it?


----------



## espola

A couple of nice scattergram plots here on percent vaccinated and proportional covid death with the x-axes being % of vote for t in 2020, by county --









						Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
					

An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.




					www.npr.org


----------



## espola

espola said:


> A couple of nice scattergram plots here on percent vaccinated and proportional covid death with the x-axes being % of vote for t in 2020, by county --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
> 
> 
> An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


"In October, the reddest tenth of the country saw death rates that were six times higher than the bluest tenth"


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> We went from 15 Days to Slow The Spread to let's Abolish The Nuremberg Code


If you can’t make your case without repeatedly making allusions to Nazis, you probably don’t have much of a case.

For public health reasons, many in person jobs now require a vaccine.  This is not the same thing as a massive government campaign to abduct and murder civilians.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no “I” in team
> FREEDUMB costs SDSU a better chance


That's your take?  Hilarious.  They followed their stated protocols, players were vaccinated (haven't heard the specifics but sounds like team was mostly vaccinated).  What more do you want... Oh wait, you don't understand how a virus works, especially given the leakiness of the current technology.  This was bound to happen, it's going to continue to happen.  I mean, look at L'whiner and others.  

My guess is you would advocate for strict quarantine for teams during their season.  Zoom class for student athlets, separate dining facilities, off site living. A bubble on  every campus for every sport.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> A couple of nice scattergram plots here on percent vaccinated and proportional covid death with the x-axes being % of vote for t in 2020, by county --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
> 
> 
> An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


yes and?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> yes and?


Rejecting a trend of just posting conclusions and challenging others to find the supporting data, I posted some data to allow others to form their own conclusions.  

Or not.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Rejecting a trend of just posting conclusions and challenging others to find the supporting data, I posted some data to allow others to form their own conclusions.
> 
> Or not.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Rejecting a trend of just posting conclusions and challenging others to find the supporting data, I posted some data to allow others to form their own conclusions.
> 
> Or not.


Great news for dems in those counties and states.  Just in time for 2022


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> Great news for dems in those counties and states.  Just in time for 2022


I disagree

this would be like Rs saying the rise in crime in large blue cities gives them a chance in those districts in 2022

these by and large are very red areas


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> I disagree
> 
> this would be like Rs saying the rise in crime in large blue cities gives them a chance in those districts in 2022
> 
> these by and large are very red areas


I was being sarcastic. The NPR article is silly.  

With that said, policy and emotions about the current admin  drives mid term elections, take a peek at what happened in VA.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I was being sarcastic.


So what did you really mean, sarcasm-free?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> So what did you really mean, sarcasm-free?


That there are also other reasons the virus impacts certain parts of the country differently.  The NPR article caters to a specific type of political hack that likes to hear themselves in their echo chamber.   You can make the entire article about health.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> I was being sarcastic. The NPR article is silly.
> 
> With that said, policy and emotions about the current admin  drives mid term elections, take a peek at what happened in VA.


yeah, even in “normal “ times the Dems faced an uphill battle in house midterms  just looking at recent data ( this century ) for controlling party of president

add in all the other factors and it’s looking like a bloodbath for Dems in 2022


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's nobody's theory but your own.
> 
> "Lack of comprehension" has been your dustoff for critics for years, hasn't it?



Says the guy whose so lost he went down this wormhole because he wasn't following along.  The wonderful juicy juicy irony.

hahahahahahahahahahah!

"Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intellect".


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> That there are also other reasons the virus impacts certain parts of the country differently.  The NPR article caters to a specific type of political hack that likes to hear themselves in their echo chamber.   You can make the entire article about health.


I never had a formal class in statistics except for part of the class on Probability that was part of my high school math camp, but it was touched on in other studies in lab sciences and work with signal processing and cryptology, so I recognize the strength of covariant analysis, especially with such strong trends.  It is apparent from the plots that those who voted for t tend to be not vaccinated, and also tend to be dying faster from covid. 

 You seem to be denying a correlation there because of "other reasons".  What did you have in mind there?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Says the guy whose so lost he went down this wormhole because he wasn't following along.  The wonderful juicy juicy irony.
> 
> hahahahahahahahahahah!
> 
> "Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intellect".


You keep repeating the same ad hominem defenses instead of providing any factual backup.  Is that all you have?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> yeah, even in “normal “ times the Dems faced an uphill battle in house midterms  just looking at recent data ( this century ) for controlling party of president
> 
> add in all the other factors and it’s looking like a bloodbath for Dems in 2022


What are all the other factors?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> What are all the other factors?


not going play the Texas 2 step with you on this one

you know what they are


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> yeah, even in “normal “ times the Dems faced an uphill battle in house midterms  just looking at recent data ( this century ) for controlling party of president
> 
> add in all the other factors and it’s looking like a bloodbath for Dems in 2022


It was over for them in 2016.  They were trying to cheat but got stopped.  t won fair & square.  HRC lost her shit as did Epstein, Hollywood, media, Espola, Husker, EOTL and all the other losers on FB.  I saw it at church too and I saw it with best pals from school.  Divide and then try and conquer they tried.  Then the cheaters decided to give the heist another try in 2020.  This time the good guys allowed the cheaters to make off with the heist. Smash & Go types.  Everyone is being watched and everyone will pay for playing the game of good & evil.  It's not, "good vs evil."  Nope.  It's knowing how to live with good & evil.  The roots of evil go very deep and you need to let all the cheaters cheat and then arrest them and punish them so this never happens again on planet earth.  The Guardian Force of the great Galaxy will rule the world, not fat cats in the middle.  It's over them and they know it.  Fuck man, Crypto dropped 20% the other night.  My buddy is panic now.  I told him to buy a bar of Gold or Silver and he didnt listen.  The good liberals I know are now capitulating to the right side of the truth.  I'm so proud of another old friend who called me and thanked me for helping him navigate all this.  I love this stuff and it's why I came to planet earth.  I here to help those who need it.  The light has won and the darkness is no more!!!  I am so stoked!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like the Israelis are headed to their 4th shot in under 1 year.  Coming to your neighborhood soon.  Sorry guys, this is where I get off, particularly since it looks like the vaccine doesn't do much beyond the first two shots (protecting against severe disease due to novelty) for the omicron.









						Health minister suggests fourth vaccine dose amid rising fears of fifth COVID wave
					

Nitzan Horowitz urges parents to vaccinate children as campaign for ages 5-11 gets off to slow start; coronavirus czar says fresh round of infections already starting




					www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You keep repeating the same ad hominem defenses instead of providing any factual backup.  Is that all you have?


Says the king of the ad hominems.  hahahahahahahahahaha!  Comedy gold.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Says the king of the ad hominems.  hahahahahahahahahaha!  Comedy gold.


Did you miss where I pointed out that the novel "run out of mutations" theory was yours alone?  That's not an ad hominem argument, it is addressing the content of your position directly.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> That's your take?  Hilarious.  They followed their stated protocols, players were vaccinated (haven't heard the specifics but sounds like team was mostly vaccinated).  What more do you want... Oh wait, you don't understand how a virus works, especially given the leakiness of the current technology.  This was bound to happen, it's going to continue to happen.  I mean, look at L'whiner and others.
> 
> My guess is you would advocate for strict quarantine for teams during their season.  Zoom class for student athlets, separate dining facilities, off site living. A bubble on  every campus for every sport.


So you didn’t read or comprehend the piece, check.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Looks like the Israelis are headed to their 4th shot in under 1 year.  Coming to your neighborhood soon.  Sorry guys, this is where I get off, particularly since it looks like the vaccine doesn't do much beyond the first two shots (protecting against severe disease due to novelty) for the omicron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health minister suggests fourth vaccine dose amid rising fears of fifth COVID wave
> 
> 
> Nitzan Horowitz urges parents to vaccinate children as campaign for ages 5-11 gets off to slow start; coronavirus czar says fresh round of infections already starting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


Does "doesn't do much" allow for reduced hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Did you miss where I pointed out that the novel "run out of mutations" theory was yours alone?  That's not an ad hominem argument, it is addressing the content of your position directly.


Did you miss the material posted early in the week?

the funny thing is I don't even care about the argument.  Don't care if the theory is true or not.  Just that with every step, you show how lost and lueless you really are.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> not going play the Texas 2 step with you on this one
> 
> you know what they are


You have just stated that you know.  Why not post it?

Don't try pulling a gracey runaway on us.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Does "doesn't do much" allow for reduced hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated?


More cluelessness on your part.  I said beyond reduction of severe disease.  And also the 2 shots are sufficient for that.  The rest are superfluous if they do nothing to stop the omicron.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You have just stated that you know.  Why not post it?
> 
> Don't try pulling a gracey runaway on us.


he just knows how clueless you and your 2 step really are.  He doesn't have my level of patience with you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> More cluelessness on your part.  I said beyond reduction of severe disease.  And also the 2 shots are sufficient for that.  The rest are superfluous if they do nothing to stop the omicron.


Let me help by pointing out that you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions again.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> You have just stated that you know.  Why not post it?
> 
> Don't try pulling a gracey runaway on us.


you know as well, so why dont we skip the song and dance and you tell me why you disagree


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Did you miss the material posted early in the week?
> 
> the funny thing is I don't even care about the argument.  Don't care if the theory is true or not.  Just that with every step, you show how lost andnd actually make something o f your life. lueless you really are.


I took the trouble of reading the whole thread for the last week while half-watching the Charger game.  There's nothing there before your sudden "run out of mutations" theory appeared.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Let me help by pointing out that you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions again.


reading comprehension again.  Hence the word 'if'

let me applaud you for the original comedy routine.  You seem especially confounded today but I don't think I've ever laughed so hard.  You really could do this professionally.  Missed your calling.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I took the trouble of reading the whole thread for the last week while half-watching the Charger game.  There's nothing there before your sudden "run out of mutations" theory appeared.


no wonder.  You were 'half-watching' the Charger game.  at least you have an excuse for the cluelessness. it's there.


----------



## Brav520

Exactly a type of game chargers have blown for years , turning the corner , maybe


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Looks like the Israelis are headed to their 4th shot in under 1 year.  Coming to your neighborhood soon.  *Sorry guys, this is where I get off*, particularly since it looks like the vaccine doesn't do much beyond the first two shots (protecting against severe disease due to novelty) for the omicron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health minister suggests fourth vaccine dose amid rising fears of fifth COVID wave
> 
> 
> Nitzan Horowitz urges parents to vaccinate children as campaign for ages 5-11 gets off to slow start; coronavirus czar says fresh round of infections already starting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


I knew you would jump off.  This is not funny, it's what we know it is.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> no wonder.  You were 'half-watching' the Charger game.  at least you have an excuse for the cluelessness. it's there.


Show me.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Show me.


I don't brook my kids laziness and cluelessness, what makes you think I'll brook yours?  love the double "Magoo Two Step" BTW....today is bound to be a classic for you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I don't brook my kids laziness and cluelessness, what makes you think I'll brook yours?  love the double "Magoo Two Step" BTW....today is bound to be a classic for you.


I already took the trouble to review the thread.  Now it's your turn to do some work.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I already took the trouble to review the thread.  Now it's your turn to do some work.


You say that like I actually care enough to fix it because of your poor comprehension issues.  My kids just thought something was wrong with me, BTW because I burst out laughing rolling around on the floor.  Even the dog was worried.  I swear this is the funniest thing ever.  You are on fire!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Are you starting to see what this is really about?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467567878354264068


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You say that like I actually care enough to fix it because of your poor comprehension issues.  My kids just thought something was wrong with me, BTW because I burst out laughing rolling around on the floor.  Even the dog was worried.  I swear this is the funniest thing ever.  You are on fire!


Still nothing but ad hominems from you.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> you know as well, so why dont we skip the song and dance and you tell me why you disagree


I'm not going to pretend that I can read your mind.


----------



## crush

*Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy... “If you get vaccinated and boosted. You use testing judiciously before you gather, you gather in well-ventilated spaces and use masks whenever you can in public indoor spaces, your risk can be quite low and your holidays can be quite fulfilling.”*

Truly Insane and Coo Coo!!!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Still nothing but ad hominems from you.


Not your best work particularly after the last one

you’ve already established the Schtick about complaining in ads when you yourself engage in ads. Dad4 does it better. But coming from you, the king of the ads, it’s just perfect. The only thing is this part of the Magoo Two Step is becoming a little old and repetitive.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You say that like I actually care enough to fix it because of your poor comprehension issues.  My kids just thought something was wrong with me, BTW because I burst out laughing rolling around on the floor.  Even the dog was worried.  I swear this is the funniest thing ever.  You are on fire!


I was laughing so hard earlier that my wife goes, "what's Golden Gate saying now or is it Espola again?"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Not your best work particularly after the last one
> 
> you’ve already established the Schtick about complaining in ads when you yourself engage in ads. Dad4 does it better. But coming from you, the king of the ads, it’s just perfect. The only thing is this part of the Magoo Two Step is becoming a little old and repetitive.


Still nothing.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Exactly a type of game chargers have blown for years , turning the corner , maybe


There were all kinds of opportunities in this game for the rule-makers to make adjustments next year.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Still nothing.


I’m giving this the attention it deserves.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I knew you would jump off.  This is not funny, it's what we know it is.


15 jabs to slow the spread


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aztecs had 20 players miss Mountain West championship game due to COVID-19 protocols
> 
> 
> SDSU tight ends Daniel Bellinger, Jay Rudolph, Aaron Greene and wide receivers Tyrell Shavers, TJ Sullivan among those out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no “I” in team
> FREEDOMB costs SDSU a better chance


Your rhetoric is quite similar to The Lemon Fluffer, he's now gone.
You shall soon be in the same dustbin of history offering
nothing but worn out platitudes to an audience of one.
Iam Smaaat, yeah Iam Smaaaat. 
Careful who you fish with Fredo.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> I already took the trouble to review the thread.  Now it's your turn to do some work.


Adam Espola Schiff , You are the definition of Insanity.

Trying the same retorts over and over again expecting a 
different outcome.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Adam Espola Schiff , You are the definition of Insanity.
> 
> Trying the same retorts over and over again expecting a
> different outcome.


Your comment is directed toward the wrong participant.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I never had a formal class in statistics except for part of the class on Probability that was part of my high school math camp, but it was touched on in other studies in lab sciences and work with signal processing and cryptology, so I recognize the strength of covariant analysis, especially with such strong trends.  It is apparent from the plots that those who voted for t tend to be not vaccinated, and also tend to be dying faster from covid.
> 
> You seem to be denying a correlation there because of "other reasons".  What did you have in mind there?


Where am I denying it?  Statistics are bendy.  Are these republican counties that voted for trump..of course they are.   Continue to summon trump as the boogey man - it's like you are  still in 2020.  Besides, there are going to be pockets that will continue to refuse vaccination efforts, regardless of outcome, messaging, etc.  Kinda like the lung cancer patient that continues to smoke. .  Let them be.  Diabetes, obesity, covid,,...all of these are prevalent in 'trump counties".  Less pork pulling parties and more spinach could do the trick...won't happen though, going to a pork pull is way too much fun.

  Besides, trump was booed in alabama for advocating for the vaccine.  His peeps made their mind up a long time ago they weren't going to trust the government.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Still nothing but ad hominems from you.


What do you expect from just another nutter?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do you expect from just another nutter?


Funny coming from the baby bear of the three trolls.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Where am I denying it?  Statistics are bendy.  Are these republican counties that voted for trump..of course they are.   Continue to summon trump as the boogey man - it's like you are  still in 2020.  Besides, there are going to be pockets that will continue to refuse vaccination efforts, regardless of outcome, messaging, etc.  Kinda like the lung cancer patient that continues to smoke. .  Let them be.  Diabetes, obesity, covid,,...all of these are prevalent in 'trump counties".  Less pork pulling parties and more spinach could do the trick...won't happen though, going to a pork pull is way too much fun.
> 
> Besides, trump was booed in alabama for advocating for the vaccine.  His peeps made their mind up a long time ago they weren't going to trust the government.


T is not a boogeyman in this study.  Support of t is a covariant.

T alternates between proudly recommending the vaccine and criticizing it on different days.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Funny coming from the baby bear of the three trolls.


Have you found it yet?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Have you found it yet?


Not as funny the second time around. Do better. You were so on earlier mama bear.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Not as funny the second time around. Do better. You were so on earlier mama bear.


I'll take that as a "no".


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'll take that as a "no".


More like “don’t care”. Seriously…other than you make me laugh why would I???


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> More like “don’t care”. Seriously…other than you make me laugh why would I???


You don't care that you are making yourself look like a fool?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You don't care that you are making yourself look like a fool?


To the three trolls, no not really. Just shows how much respect I have for you all.  Except for dad4 (who’ll apparently take any allies he’ll get) to the rest of around here you guys are just a joke. I mainly tolerate you for the comedy. 

anybody else who really cares about the issue can either look at the past post, google it, or just take my word for it. But nothing you have ever posted here shows that you have any concern for actually discovering truth (or are even capable of understanding some of the subjects). You just want to troll so more power to you.  And I’ll give it it’s appropriate due.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> To the three trolls, no not really. Just shows how much respect I have for you all.  Except for dad4 (who’ll apparently take any allies he’ll get) to the rest of around here you guys are just a joke. I mainly tolerate you for the comedy.
> 
> anybody else who really cares about the issue can either look at the past post, google it, or just take my word for it. But nothing you have ever posted here shows that you have any concern for actually discovering truth (or are even capable of understanding some of the subjects). You just want to troll so more power to you.  And I’ll give it it’s appropriate due.


I have looked already, googled it, and my advice to all readers is not to take your word for anything without supporting documentation.

You had the opportunity to come clean much earlier by just admitting you made an exaggeration or mis-statement, but instead, you have followed a bifurcated path of insisting you don't care, while at the same time insisting you are correct.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have looked already, googled it, and my advice to all readers is not to take your word for anything without supporting documentation.
> 
> You had the opportunity to come clean much earlier by just admitting you made an exaggeration or mis-statement, but instead, you have followed a bifurcated path of insisting you don't care, while at the same time insisting you are correct.


I see we’ve hit the demand “come clean” phase of the Magoo Two Step. No thanks.  What band is playing btw?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I see we’ve hit the demand “come clean” phase of the Magoo Two Step. No thanks.  What band is playing btw?


Still nothing.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Still nothing.


Still trolling.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Where am I denying it?  Statistics are bendy.  Are these republican counties that voted for trump..of course they are.   Continue to summon trump as the boogey man - it's like you are  still in 2020.  Besides, there are going to be pockets that will continue to refuse vaccination efforts, regardless of outcome, messaging, etc.  Kinda like the lung cancer patient that continues to smoke. .  Let them be.  Diabetes, obesity, covid,,...all of these are prevalent in 'trump counties".  Less pork pulling parties and more spinach could do the trick...won't happen though, going to a pork pull is way too much fun.
> 
> Besides, trump was booed in alabama for advocating for the vaccine.  His peeps made their mind up a long time ago they weren't going to trust the government.


The blame for this goes to the right wing media, not Trump.

Trump did a good job pushing for the vaccine, and clearing go out the usual government red tape.  Thank goodness we didn't waste time arguing about prevailing wage and minimum set asides for minority owned pharmaceutical companies.  

But the pro-trump media has blood on their hands.  They've been beating an anti-vax drum for a while now, and it is causing deaths.


----------



## NorCalDad

Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
					

An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You don't care that you are making yourself look like a fool?


Looking the fool amongst fellow nutters isn’t a thing. They back each other no matter how silly and obvious the situation. Those types claimed Sarah Palin was a genius and stuck with it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> T is not a boogeyman in this study.  Support of t is a covariant.
> 
> T alternates between proudly recommending the vaccine and criticizing it on different days.


trump support is a comorbidity.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The blame for this goes to the right wing media, not Trump.
> 
> Trump did a good job pushing for the vaccine, and clearing go out the usual government red tape.  Thank goodness we didn't waste time arguing about prevailing wage and minimum set asides for minority owned pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> But the pro-trump media has blood on their hands.  They've been beating an anti-vax drum for a while now, and it is causing deaths.


----------



## crush

What a mess at Airports.  My wife's grandma just passed away.  94.  Her father was 100% Cherokee.  She died with her loved one's all around her at home.  She was anti-vaxxer all the way to the end.  The reward was no assisted living, nursing home or being in a hospital all alone when you pass away.  I will drive my wife to San Antonio to celebrate her life on Friday.  She loved me and told me I was handsome all the time


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The blame for this goes to the right wing media, not Trump.





dad4 said:


> But the pro-trump media has blood on their hands. They've been beating an anti-vax drum for a while now, and it is causing deaths.


Not even close. 

They have been pro vax. They do however come out against vax mandates. Totally a different thing. They are also against useless gov restrictions. 

They don't have blood on their hands.


----------



## crush

Dude was offering free burgers for jabs and now* "HE"* is *mandating* private companies to force the jabs or tell their long time employees to either get jabbed or lose your ability to earn a buck.  All must be done by December 27th!!!  This is starting to become biblical you guys.  This is game of choice.  Good and Evil and you get to decide how to behave.  If a good dog and a evil dog went to blows, WHO would win the big fight?  You see everyone, we all have good and bad dog in us. The one who wins is the one you feed.

*NYC Announces First-In-The-Nation Vaccine Mandate For Private Companies*

“We in New York City have decided to use a *preemptive strike*, to really do something *bold* to stop the further growth of COVID and the dangers it’s causing to all of us,” de Blasio said in an interview with MSNBC. “*So as of today*, we’re going to announce a *first-in-the-nation* measure. Our health commissioner will announce a vaccine mandate for private sector employers across the board.”

This is insane!!!


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Not even close.
> 
> They have been pro vax. They do however come out against vax mandates. Totally a different thing. They are also against useless gov restrictions.
> 
> They don't have blood on their hands.


Do you have a better explanation for the ridiculously low vaccine rate among Republicans? 

I treat it as decent people who have been lied to.  Are you saying they were well informed and intelligently chose a higher death rate?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Do you have a better explanation for the ridiculously low vaccine rate among Republicans?
> 
> I treat it as decent people who have been lied to.  Are you saying they were well informed and intelligently chose a higher death rate?


I just want you to know that your behavior is only going to get you in more trouble.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Looks like the Israelis are headed to their 4th shot in under 1 year.  Coming to your neighborhood soon.  Sorry guys, this is where I get off, particularly since it looks like the vaccine doesn't do much beyond the first two shots (protecting against severe disease due to novelty) for the omicron.
> 
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/health-minister-suggests-fourth-vaccine-dose-amid-rising-fears-of-fifth-covid-wavep/


Well there are 4 lines on our vaccine cards, so it was great planning by our government.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Well there are 4 lines on our vaccine cards, so it was great planning by our government.


This guy just quit after selling the boosters for a long time.  You can't make this shit up. 









						Australian psychopath
					






					www.bitchute.com
				












						Greg Hunt confirms he's retiring from politics at the next election
					

Federal Health and Aged Care Minister Greg Hunt announces he will retire at the next election and not recontest his seat in Victoria.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Please explain a non-crazy biological basis for "run out of mutations".


Since I doubt you'll get anything back on this.....the virus can keep mutating, in fact a rapid rate of genetic change is hard wired in multiple ways into its replicative cycle. The argument is just classic evolutionary theory.  The idea is that at some point the virus has come close to genetically optimizing its interaction with the Ace2 receptor and other potential rate limiting steps in infection.  Further improvement of those steps becomes difficult to achieve and marginal in effect.  CoV-2 will be as turbo charged as it can get.  That's the "run out of mutations" thing.  Its "run out of mutations that can be selected for in a way that increases viral replicative potential". 

What's a virus to do?  The only way around that genetic limit is to completely recast it's targeting strategy.  Which is possible, especially now that CoV-2 is entering into new sylvatic resevoirs around the globe.  This is what the Utube bloggers that put Grace into full blown Covid freakouts should be talking about. These resevoirs are natural laboratories where all sorts of recombinants slowly emerge and test the waters to see they have picked up any new tricks.  Like imagine the replicative engine of Cov-S got linked up with an S protein coding region that targeted the MERS target receptor.  This is something our kids to great, great grandchildren will need to be watching for.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Do you have a better explanation for the ridiculously low vaccine rate among Republicans?
> 
> I treat it as decent people who have been lied to.  Are you saying they were well informed and intelligently chose a higher death rate?


It’s the same explanation for why a very strong g d group has low vaccination rates: a mistrust of the establishment institutions. Let’s look at the record of those institutions: health authorities who have been repeatedly wrong about things (including outright lies and most especially the complete neglect of natural immunity), a pharma industry in it for the profit and which has been caught playing fast and lose with the trials, a partisan and biased media, and politicians that repeatedly broke covid rules themselves  Conservative media, rightly or wrongly, is only guilty of amplifying this sentiment. It didn’t create it. Remember last year the shoe was on the other foot with even the vp expressing reservations about the “trump vaccine”


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since I doubt you'll get anything back on this.....the virus can keep mutating, in fact a rapid rate of genetic change is hard wired in multiple ways into its replicative cycle. The argument is just classic evolutionary theory.  The idea is that at some point the virus has come close to genetically optimizing its interaction with the Ace2 receptor and other potential rate limiting steps in infection.  Further improvement of those steps becomes difficult to achieve and marginal in effect.  CoV-2 will be as turbo charged as it can get.  That's the "run out of mutations" thing.  Its "run out of mutations that can be selected for in a way that increases viral replicative potential".
> 
> What's a virus to do?  The only way around that genetic limit is to completely recast it's targeting strategy.  Which is possible, especially now that CoV-2 is entering into new sylvatic resevoirs around the globe.  This is what the Utube bloggers that put Grace into full blown Covid freakouts should be talking about. These resevoirs are natural laboratories where all sorts of recombinants slowly emerge and test the waters to see they have picked up any new tricks.  Like imagine the replicative engine of Cov-S got linked up with an S protein coding region that targeted the MERS target receptor.  This is something our kids to great, great grandchildren will need to be watching for.


Yes and the other argument is that it tries to recast its targeting strategy but fails…collapsing it’s ability to reproduce. I put it inartfully, but that’s what they in essence think has happened in Japan where covid collapsed unexpectedly even though seasonally it’s busting at the seams in South Korea.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since I doubt you'll get anything back on this.....the virus can keep mutating, in fact a rapid rate of genetic change is hard wired in multiple ways into its replicative cycle. The argument is just classic evolutionary theory.  The idea is that at some point the virus has come close to genetically optimizing its interaction with the Ace2 receptor and other potential rate limiting steps in infection.  Further improvement of those steps becomes difficult to achieve and marginal in effect.  CoV-2 will be as turbo charged as it can get.  That's the "run out of mutations" thing.  Its "run out of mutations that can be selected for in a way that increases viral replicative potential".
> 
> What's a virus to do?  The only way around that genetic limit is to completely recast it's targeting strategy.  Which is possible, especially now that CoV-2 is entering into new sylvatic resevoirs around the globe.  This is what the Utube bloggers that put Grace into full blown Covid freakouts should be talking about. These resevoirs are natural laboratories where all sorts of recombinants slowly emerge and test the waters to see they have picked up any new tricks.  Like imagine the replicative engine of Cov-S got linked up with an S protein coding region that targeted the MERS target receptor.  This is something our kids to great, great grandchildren will need to be watching for.


That sounds as if the virus were willfully directing its evolutionary path.  That doesn't happen.  Mutations are the results of random mistakes in the genetic replication process, some of which don't matter, some of which result in a failed organism, and some of which give an advantage.  The advantage of concern nowadays is a change that defeats or bypasses the mechanism of the current vaccines.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It’s the same explanation for why a very strong g d group has low vaccination rates: a mistrust of the establishment institutions. Let’s look at the record of those institutions: health authorities who have been repeatedly wrong about things (including outright lies and most especially the complete neglect of natural immunity), a pharma industry in it for the profit and which has been caught playing fast and lose with the trials, a partisan and biased media, and politicians that repeatedly broke covid rules themselves  Conservative media, rightly or wrongly, is only guilty of amplifying this sentiment. It didn’t create it. Remember last year the shoe was on the other foot with even the vp expressing reservations about the “trump vaccine”


It took you a lot of words to get around to it, but you essentially agreed that the right wing media helped cause the low vax rate in right wing areas.  

Basic case of decent people being misled by their institutions.  Except, in this case, it was the right wing talk show hosts who did the misleading.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since I doubt you'll get anything back on this.....the virus can keep mutating, in fact a rapid rate of genetic change is hard wired in multiple ways into its replicative cycle. The argument is just classic evolutionary theory.  The idea is that at some point the virus has come close to genetically optimizing its interaction with the Ace2 receptor and other potential rate limiting steps in infection.  Further improvement of those steps becomes difficult to achieve and marginal in effect.  CoV-2 will be as turbo charged as it can get.  That's the "run out of mutations" thing.  Its "run out of mutations that can be selected for in a way that increases viral replicative potential".
> 
> What's a virus to do?  The only way around that genetic limit is to completely recast it's targeting strategy.  Which is possible, especially now that CoV-2 is entering into new sylvatic resevoirs around the globe.  This is what the Utube bloggers that put Grace into full blown Covid freakouts should be talking about. These resevoirs are natural laboratories where all sorts of recombinants slowly emerge and test the waters to see they have picked up any new tricks.  Like imagine the replicative engine of Cov-S got linked up with an S protein coding region that targeted the MERS target receptor.  This is something our kids to great, great grandchildren will need to be watching for.


I agree, the fear virus is taking my pals hostage.  No amount of boosters can save you.  Nothing can stop what is coming evil.  God brought us to learn how to live with knowing good & evil.  I always saw it as "good vs evil."  No no no no, I had it all wrong.  God wanted us to eat of the tree of good & evil.  He even told Adam "when you eat of it....." meaning, you will eat it because I want you to.  He even brought Eve to help him eat of the tree of good and evil.  Still, that wasn't enough so he brought the craft serpent to "help" Eve eat it.  We had it all backwards and the way the English language is used to trick people, well then you can take words and twist them the way you them to be.  Q.  Why would God put the tree of good and evil in the garden of eden if he didnt want us to know what he knows, which is also good and evil.  It's a choice   P.S.  I didnt ask to be born on this planet.  I was brought here.  My wife thinks I volunteered to join this mission.  I know one thing.  I pick Good and see Evil as all it is.  It's just shadow really.  We like to come up with fearful names.  I hope that helps you out today as the country falls a part.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes and the other argument is that it tries to recast its targeting strategy but fails…collapsing it’s ability to reproduce. I put it inartfully, but that’s what they in essence think has happened in Japan where covid collapsed unexpectedly even though seasonally it’s busting at the seams in South Korea.


So all the billions (trillions?) of virus particles existing in Japan (each of which is an independent possible source of mutations) evolved down the same path?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Do you have a better explanation for the ridiculously low vaccine rate among Republicans?


So you are just guessing then. 

A question to ask you is why is the group with the lowest vax rate one that is the most reliable D voting block? IE blacks?

You just don't hear or read in the right side press anti vax sentiments/stories. Pretty much to a T they will all say get vaxxed. 

They will argue strongly against mandates and other silly gov intrusions into life. 

To be honest the only side that did express concern about the vax came from D politicians in the run up to the last presidential election. One could also find stories from the left side expressing skepticism about trumps vaccines. 

The vast vast majority of the population has no real risk. I think many people look at that fact and determine what they want to do vaxx wise. 

Throughout the country the high risk groups have been vaxxed at high rates. In other words the people at risk have made their choice. 

At this point who cares? People have decided whether they want to get vaxxed or not. 

Time to move on.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes and the other argument is that it tries to recast its targeting strategy but fails…collapsing it’s ability to reproduce. I put it inartfully, but that’s what they in essence think has happened in Japan where covid collapsed unexpectedly even though seasonally it’s busting at the seams in South Korea.


Your argument is that the virus in Japan ran out of productive mutations, but the virus in other countries did not?  

What a fascinating theory.   It is bat shit crazy, but fascinating.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So all the billions (trillions?) of virus particles existing in Japan (each of which is an independent possible source of mutations) evolved down the same path?


where did I say that?  I specifically said it's not likely to even hold up with COVID because omicron is going to get there, undoing the viral collapse (if that's what even happened) that occurred.  I acknowledge that it's a possibility, not that it's a universal truth.  again, that comprehension thing is eluding you.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your argument is that the virus in Japan ran out of productive mutations, but the virus in other countries did not?
> 
> What a fascinating theory.   It is bat shit crazy, but fascinating.


Not my argument.  That Japanese epidemiologist.  I don't have the chops to evaluate whether its bat shit crazy or not.  And even he admitted it's probably an evolutionary fluke.

The reason YOU wouldn't like him is the explanation from his study as to why initial COVID didn't take too much of a hold in Asia is prior immunity to other coronaviruses.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It took you a lot of words to get around to it, but you essentially agreed that the right wing media helped cause the low vax rate in right wing areas.
> 
> Basic case of decent people being misled by their institutions.  Except, in this case, it was the right wing talk show hosts who did the misleading.


Yes, I think they helped.  But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be.  Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine.  World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Yes and the other argument is that it tries to recast its targeting strategy but fails…collapsing it’s ability to reproduce. I put it inartfully, but that’s what they in essence think has happened in Japan where covid collapsed unexpectedly even though seasonally it’s busting at the seams in South Korea.


For the virus, doesn't work that way.  The only selective pressure so to speak is for bigger and faster.  Natural selection is like a D1 soccer coach on a white plastic folding chair.  consider genetically altered sterile mosquitos for example.  the mosquitos aren't going to breed up sterility on their own. Makes no sense. Have to engineer it up and then flood the zone.  same thing with the virus, it's not going to select for something that causes it to collapse.  Doesn't mean such a combination of mutations is not possible, in fact most mutations are detrimental.  Just means no way to drive such mutations forward in a larger population.

all this "unexpected" its up here, its down there is a few new emergent variants sloshing around from place to place globe with 6-10 month periodicity based on the timing of previous waves, vaccination campaigns, the waning of first round immunity in terms of ciculating Ab titers, all kinds of stuff. Once that periodicity settles down people will stop paying attention.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Yes, I think they helped.  But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be.  Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine.  World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).


I can say with certainty most parents I know WHO got the jab are NOT having their precious kiddos get jabbed.  it's one thing to take one for the team, it's another to sacrifice your child for the team.  We will ALL find out what this was all about.  Let's all be patient and not overreact.  The Military will sort it all out and not the courts.  Everyone has a little or a lot of dirt on them.  NSA has all the cell phones recorded, all text and emails captured real time.  Drones and satellite are everywhere so no one escapes this game.  Revelations was clear that everything someone has done is recorded. NSA has it all.  Do good you guys and good will come to you.  Do evil and you will live with evil.  Simple.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> So you are just guessing then.
> 
> A question to ask you is why is the group with the lowest vax rate one that is the most reliable D voting block? IE blacks?
> 
> You just don't hear or read in the right side press anti vax sentiments/stories. Pretty much to a T they will all say get vaxxed.
> 
> They will argue strongly against mandates and other silly gov intrusions into life.
> 
> To be honest the only side that did express concern about the vax came from D politicians in the run up to the last presidential election. One could also find stories from the left side expressing skepticism about trumps vaccines.
> 
> The vast vast majority of the population has no real risk. I think many people look at that fact and determine what they want to do vaxx wise.
> 
> Throughout the country the high risk groups have been vaxxed at high rates. In other words the people at risk have made their choice.
> 
> At this point who cares? People have decided whether they want to get vaxxed or not.
> 
> Time to move on.


The US Black population has a higher vaccination rate than the average of the counties that supported t in 2020.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> where did I say that?  I specifically said it's not likely to even hold up with COVID because omicron is going to get there, undoing the viral collapse (if that's what even happened) that occurred.  I acknowledge that it's a possibility, not that it's a universal truth.  again, that comprehension thing is eluding you.


I get it -- it's not your theory, it was discussed here last week, and what's on second.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the virus, doesn't work that way.  The only selective pressure so to speak is for bigger and faster.  Natural selection is like a D1 soccer coach on a white plastic folding chair.  consider genetically altered sterile mosquitos for example.  the mosquitos aren't going to breed up sterility on their own. Makes no sense. Have to engineer it up and then flood the zone.  same thing with the virus, it's not going to select for something that causes it to collapse.  Doesn't mean such a combination of mutations is not possible, in fact most mutations are detrimental.  Just means no way to drive such mutations forward in a larger population.
> 
> all this "unexpected" its up here, its down there is a few new emergent variants sloshing around from place to place globe with 6-10 month periodicity based on the timing of previous waves, vaccination campaigns, the waning of first round immunity in terms of ciculating Ab titers, all kinds of stuff. Once that periodicity settles down people will stop paying attention.


Again, I don't have the chops to evaluate the Japanese's theory.  As best I understand it, it's like a computer code and eventually an error creeps in that causes the program to fail.  

 The problem the Japanese are trying to solve is why COVID collapsed in Japan (have you looked at the case count...it's pretty remarkable).  It's not seasonality....south korea and China are in the same seasonal regions yet are having explosions right now.  It's not everyone infected or vaccinated...vaccine rates are o.k. but countries that have done better such as Gibraltar, Ireland, Singapore, Iceland and England are dealing with delta outbreaks.  It might be that the Japanese put a lot of restrictions on their borders after the Olympics but that didn't help in Australia or NZ....the Delta showed even 1 escaped case is enough to seed a country.  It's not masks and NPIS....masks have failed to contain the outbreak in the rest of Asia and Japan is in the process of reopening.  It could be that the Japanese are superimmune and the Delta went through the population already that was vulnerable....the authors also touched on prior Asian immunity.  But this is the only country which is in season which does not have a very high level of natural immunity (e.g. India) where this has occurred, hence the out of the bo x theories.

I don't think your evolutionary analogy does what you think it does.  Nature is replete with examples where species may have adapted for one reason (e.g. sexual appeal) but those evolutions turn out to be detrimental to the species survival.  Or the conditions they are adapted to change.  Nature is replete with evolutionary dead ends.  I get your point, but this part of your argument isn't a very good analogy.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I get it -- it's not your theory, it was discussed here last week, and what's on second.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"

Shall we waltz?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> I agree, the fear virus is taking my pals hostage.  No amount of boosters can save you.  Nothing can stop what is coming evil.  God brought us to learn how to live with knowing good & evil.  I always saw it as "good vs evil."  No no no no, I had it all wrong.  God wanted us to eat of the tree of good & evil.  He even told Adam "when you eat of it....." meaning, you will eat it because I want you to.  He even brought Eve to help him eat of the tree of good and evil.  Still, that wasn't enough so he brought the craft serpent to "help" Eve eat it.  We had it all backwards and the way the English language is used to trick people, well then you can take words and twist them the way you them to be.  Q.  Why would God put the tree of good and evil in the garden of eden if he didnt want us to know what he knows, which is also good and evil.  It's a choice   P.S.  I didnt ask to be born on this planet.  I was brought here.  My wife thinks I volunteered to join this mission.  I know one thing.  I pick Good and see Evil as all it is.  It's just shadow really.  We like to come up with fearful names.  I hope that helps you out today as the country falls a part.


Interesting.  Little story.  Haven't thought about this in awhile. I'm like 6 back in the little patch of paradise where I grew up. Sunday school.  Sunday school should be for all the warm and fuzzy stuff I think.  But here's this dude laying down full blown Revelations on us little kids.  Breaking seals, bowls all of it. I thought seal meant animal and starting crying.  Seemed pointless and cruel. Got that guy pretty excited.  Got right in my face yelling and stuff.  Distinctly remember smelling the booze.  Looking back, once I hit 18 and had grown my hair out a bit I should have tracked him down and administered a little earthly justice.  

But I keep looking for it.  Q shaman kind of dude pops out of a manhole with a magnet and all the vaxxed people go tumbling end over end, fingers clawing at the pavement into the pit. Then a plague with a virulent form of scabies and everyone chomping ivermectin comes up smelling roses.  Counter-acting postive and negative selections always give you what want.  Things would quiet down a lot I think. Maybe I'd have time to set up a little Uno's garden somewhere. 

But if I do get back to my little patch of paradise I'm definitely going to get me a dart gun like Jim had on Wild Kingdom, get my Q-beam, and vaxx me some deer.  Public service. And badgers.  If this virus gets into badgers, whatever comes back out will be really really bad.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"
> 
> Shall we waltz?


I m just pleased to see that you have conceded my initial point, that "run out of mutations" is coocoo science.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> I can say with certainty most parents I know WHO got the jab are NOT having their precious kiddos get jabbed.  it's one thing to take one for the team, it's another to sacrifice your child for the team.  We will ALL find out what this was all about.  Let's all be patient and not overreact.  The Military will sort it all out and not the courts.  Everyone has a little or a lot of dirt on them.  NSA has all the cell phones recorded, all text and emails captured real time.  Drones and satellite are everywhere so no one escapes this game.  Revelations was clear that everything someone has done is recorded. NSA has it all.  Do good you guys and good will come to you.  Do evil and you will live with evil.  Simple.


One of the variables is if it's true the omicron is not stopped by the jab.  If not, the case to vaccinate children collapses.  Ny just mandated it for kids 5 and up in public spaces.  Gonna be a problem considering its a tourism city.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes, I think they helped.  But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be.  Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine.  World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).


I am sure left wing news reports played a role in African American mistrust of vaccines.  How many thousand reports mention the Tuskegee syphillis experiment?  How many reports mention any other medical advances which benefit Africans or African Americans?

The Tuskegee study ended in disgrace a half century ago.   It is an excellent cautionary tale, and should not be forgotten.  But talking about Tuskegee without mentioning polio shots and malaria nets is extremely misleading.  It focuses on the 600 who were hurt and ignores the tens of millions who were helped.

But, if you have a story to tell about white racism against blacks, Tuskegee helps you tell that story.  So the left keeps it on the front burner.  

If they want to talk about medical programs that affected black people, they should discuss the polio eradication program in Africa.  It was over a million times as large as the Tuskegee experiment, and more recent.  You’d think it would warrant a mention now and then.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am sure left wing news reports played a role in African American mistrust of vaccines.  How many thousand reports mention the Tuskegee syphillis experiment?  How many reports mention any other medical advances which benefit Africans or African Americans?
> 
> The Tuskegee study ended in disgrace a half century ago.   It is an excellent cautionary tale, and should not be forgotten.  But talking about Tuskegee without mentioning polio shots and malaria nets is extremely misleading.  It focuses on the 600 who were hurt and ignores the tens of millions who were helped.
> 
> But, if you have a story to tell about white racism against blacks, Tuskegee helps you tell that story.  So the left keeps it on the front burner.
> 
> If they want to talk about medical programs that affected black people, they should discuss the polio eradication program in Africa.  It was over a million times as large as the Tuskegee experiment, and more recent.  You’d think it would warrant a mention now and then.


Well we both agree then the media is garbage.  That's something.....


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Or the conditions they are adapted to change.


That's very different from what you said.  Conditions changed.....wonder what kind of changes those might possibly be.  Yes, i've looked at Japan.  Yes, it came down just like FLA, just like everywhere else where it comes up it comes down.  Some new kind of thing does not need to be invented everytime that happens, no matter what your bloggers say.  But have fun with it.  Although I watched one of those you linked up until the point where the second bro came on and started talking about sleeping on somebodies couch.  I thought that was kind of weird.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> One of the variables is if it's true the omicron is not stopped by the jab.  If not, the case to vaccinate children collapses.  Ny just mandated it for kids 5 and up in public spaces.  Gonna be a problem considering its a tourism city.


Plus that liar is leaving in a few weeks.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I m just pleased to see that you have conceded my initial point, that "run out of mutations" is coocoo science.


I told you I don't have the chops to determine whether the Japanese are right and wrong.  I have no opinion whether it is coocoo science or not.  My only point is that it is a theory being discussed by experts (which isn't being an "expert" the entire threshold for dad4's arguments).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, I don't have the chops to evaluate the Japanese's theory.  As best I understand it, it's like a computer code and eventually an error creeps in that causes the program to fail.
> 
> The problem the Japanese are trying to solve is why COVID collapsed in Japan (have you looked at the case count...it's pretty remarkable).  It's not seasonality....south korea and China are in the same seasonal regions yet are having explosions right now.  It's not everyone infected or vaccinated...vaccine rates are o.k. but countries that have done better such as Gibraltar, Ireland, Singapore, Iceland and England are dealing with delta outbreaks.  It might be that the Japanese put a lot of restrictions on their borders after the Olympics but that didn't help in Australia or NZ....the Delta showed even 1 escaped case is enough to seed a country.  It's not masks and NPIS....masks have failed to contain the outbreak in the rest of Asia and Japan is in the process of reopening.  It could be that the Japanese are superimmune and the Delta went through the population already that was vulnerable....the authors also touched on prior Asian immunity.  But this is the only country which is in season which does not have a very high level of natural immunity (e.g. India) where this has occurred, hence the out of the bo x theories.
> 
> I don't think your evolutionary analogy does what you think it does.  Nature is replete with examples where species may have adapted for one reason (e.g. sexual appeal) but those evolutions turn out to be detrimental to the species survival.  Or the conditions they are adapted to change.  Nature is replete with evolutionary dead ends.  I get your point, but this part of your argument isn't a very good analogy.


Two simple analogies were offered up by Dr. Thwaites in my SDSU genetics course -- xerox machines and the I8/I5 interchange.  If you copy a document, and then use the copy to produce the next copy, recycling the fresh copy each time, eventually the reproduction will be unusable.  As for the freeway interchange - the reason the ramps loop around in such a tortuous manner is because they couldn't tear up I5 for a couple of years to build a rational interchange (or in biological terms, no mutation will survive to reproduce if the mutation causes the death of the organism).

Dr. Thwaites had a good personal history (the source of his interest in genetics) because he was colorblind and traced the history of colorblindness back through his family tree.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That's very different from what you said.  Conditions changed.....wonder what kind of changes those might possibly be.  Yes, i've looked at Japan.  Yes, it came down just like FLA, just like everywhere else where it comes up it comes down.  Some new kind of thing does not need to be invented everytime that happens, no matter what your bloggers say.  But have fun with it.  Although I watched one of those you linked up until the point where the second bro came on and started talking about sleeping on somebodies couch.  I thought that was kind of weird.



Florida is easily explained, though by the seasonal conditions.

Japan is not.  There is no easy explanation for the Japanese collapses (as I've run through), which is why they are thinking out of the box.

I supposed one possible explanation is it's we really don't have an understanding of the seasonal conditions and Japan is really out of season, but as far as I'm aware no one has been able to explain that mechanism.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Interesting.  Little story.  Haven't thought about this in awhile. I'm like 6 back in the little patch of paradise where I grew up. Sunday school.  Sunday school should be for all the warm and fuzzy stuff I think.  But here's this dude laying down full blown Revelations on us little kids.  Breaking seals, bowls all of it. I thought seal meant animal and starting crying.  Seemed pointless and cruel. Got that guy pretty excited.  Got right in my face yelling and stuff.  Distinctly remember smelling the booze.  Looking back, once I hit 18 and had grown my hair out a bit I should have tracked him down and administered a little earthly justice.
> 
> But I keep looking for it.  Q shaman kind of dude pops out of a manhole with a magnet and all the vaxxed people go tumbling end over end, fingers clawing at the pavement into the pit. Then a plague with a virulent form of scabies and everyone chomping ivermectin comes up smelling roses.  Counter-acting postive and negative selections always give you what want.  Things would quiet down a lot I think. Maybe I'd have time to set up a little Uno's garden somewhere.
> 
> But if I do get back to my little patch of paradise I'm definitely going to get me a dart gun like Jim had on Wild Kingdom, get my Q-beam, and vaxx me some deer.  Public service. And badgers.  If this virus gets into badgers, whatever comes back out will be really really bad.


That is serious church trauma bro.  I'm sorry to hear about Sunday school classes.  Disturbing..


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I told you I don't have the chops to determine whether the Japanese are right and wrong.  I have no opinion whether it is coocoo science or not.  My only point is that it is a theory being discussed by experts (which isn't being an "expert" the entire threshold for dad4's arguments).


Anyone with a basic knowledge of biology can see through it.  High school level biology should be sufficient.  Were you home-schooled by any chance?


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> That is serious church trauma bro.  I'm sorry to hear about Sunday school classes.  Disturbing..


I got kicked out of my second grade Catholic school religion class.   We were discussing Genesis 4/5 and Adam and Eve.  I raised the question that if Adam and Eve did all that begatting, how did their descendants begat all those children without brother and sister, you know, doing it.  Did the Lord just create new humans after Adam and Eve?  Or did they really do it amongst themselves?  The nun was not amused.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Two simple analogies were offered up by Dr. Thwaites in my SDSU genetics course -- xerox machines and the I8/I5 interchange.  If you copy a document, and then use the copy to produce the next copy, recycling the fresh copy each time, eventually the reproduction will be unusable.  As for the freeway interchange - the reason the ramps loop around in such a tortuous manner is because they couldn't tear up I5 for a couple of years to build a rational interchange (or in biological terms, no mutation will survive to reproduce if the mutation causes the death of the organism).
> 
> Dr. Thwaites had a good personal history (the source of his interest in genetics) because he was colorblind and traced the history of colorblindness back through his family tree.


I like the free way example, very effective as a SoCal analogy.  The copier one you could throw in a step where it becomes unusable unless each time you copy it you read it to still see if it makes sense.  A fun thing on color blindness-if you are male and colorblind should you blame your mom or your dad?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Anyone with a basic knowledge of biology can see through it.  High school level biology should be sufficient.  Were you home-schooled by any chance?


Hey it's experts are articulating it.  Wasn't dad4's entire thing to trust the experts?  Or do you only trust the experts that agree with you?

I guess we finally know what side of the Galileo argument you fit on.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I got kicked out of my second grade Catholic school religion class.   We were discussing Genesis 4/5 and Adam and Eve.  I raised the question that if Adam and Eve did all that begatting, how did their descendants begat all those children without brother and sister, you know, doing it.  Did the Lord just create new humans after Adam and Eve?  Or did they really do it amongst themselves?  The nun was not amused.


The nun had not read Genesis Chapter 4?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hey it's experts are articulating it.  Wasn't dad4's entire thing to trust the experts?  Or do you only trust the experts that agree with you?
> 
> I guess we finally know what side of the Galileo argument you fit on.


Which experts said what?  Show me.

What is the Galileo argument?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The nun had not read Genesis Chapter 4?


wooosh!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Which experts said what?  Show me.
> 
> What is the Galileo argument?


Again, posted up above at the beginning of last week.  I don't brook foolishness or laziness from my kids, what makes you think I will from you.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It took you a lot of words to get around to it, but you essentially agreed that the right wing media helped cause the low vax rate in right wing areas.
> 
> Basic case of decent people being misled by their institutions.  Except, in this case, it was the right wing talk show hosts who did the misleading.


Did you ever ask yourself why a "right-wing media" even exists?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> wooosh!


16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.









						Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 4 - King James Version
					

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the...




					www.biblegateway.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, posted up above at the beginning of last week.  I don't brook foolishness or laziness from my kids, what makes you think I will from you.


There is nothing there last week.  Please try harder.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you ever ask yourself why a "right-wing media" even exists?


Money.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Time to move on.


Past time.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
> 
> 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 4 - King James Version
> 
> 
> And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.biblegateway.com



God created Adam, then Eve.  Adam and Eve had children.  Where did the other people come from?  Did God create them, or did they do it amongst themselves.  If he created them, why doesn't the Bible mention them?  Neither answer was satisfactory to the nun, who preferred such questions not be asked.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> There is nothing there last week.  Please try harder.


And I forgot to ask again what you forgot to answer -- what is the Galileo argument?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> There is nothing there last week.  Please try harder.


There is.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> God created Adam, then Eve.  Adam and Eve had children.  Where did the other people come from?  Did God create them, or did they do it amongst themselves.  If he created them, why doesn't the Bible mention them?  Neither answer was satisfactory to the nun, who preferred such questions not be asked.


It's in the Bible that there were already people in Nod (and possibly other places, if you think about it).  Didn't the nun know that?  Do you not believe that yourself?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And I forgot to ask again what you forgot to answer -- what is the Galileo argument?


you can't figure that one out on your own?  Whoosh!  You really are going man....while you were never great you were better than this.  Condolenscences....it sucks but happens to us all.

In short: you would have been on the side of the church (because it's the establishment) instead of the out of the box thinker Galileo.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, posted up above at the beginning of last week.  I don't brook foolishness or laziness from my kids, what makes you think I will from you.


Galileo made more than one argument.  And more than one argument has been made which refers to the Galileo trial.

If you invoke “the Galileo argument” without clearly stating your point, that is laziness on your part, and no one else’s.

For now, I will assume you refer to your ahistorical assertion that Galileo was some kind of unqualified outsider.  An ”argument“ that was, and remains, completely detached from the historical facts.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> There is.


Something you won't show.  Based on your history of mistaking, exaggerating, and just plain lying about things you have posted, I won't believe it until I see it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's in the Bible that there were already people in Nod (and possibly other places, if you think about it).  Didn't the nun know that?  Do you not believe that yourself?


You aren't answering the question.  If Adam and Eve were the first humans, where did the people in Nod come from.  Again, sad.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Galileo made more than one argument.  And more than one argument has been made which refers to the Galileo trial.
> 
> If you invoke “the Galileo argument” without clearly stating your point, that is laziness on your part, and no one else’s.
> 
> For now, I will assume you refer to your ahistorical assertion that Galileo was some kind of unqualified outsider.  An ”argument“ that was, and remains, completely detached from the historical facts.


Reading comprehension.  The laziness refers to him not looking or following along to the prior articles/study/video.

As to Galileo...it's old ground.  I'm shorthanding here because I'm busy (which is a fair critique) but my assumption is that even he would get it.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I got kicked out of my second grade Catholic school religion class.   We were discussing Genesis 4/5 and Adam and Eve.  I raised the question that if Adam and Eve did all that begatting, how did their descendants begat all those children without brother and sister, you know, doing it.  Did the Lord just create new humans after Adam and Eve?  Or did they really do it amongst themselves?  The nun was not amused.


I have to leave for a few.  I have some insight that I would love to share with you.  Chew on this: Gen 5:1-2  After He created Adam & Eve and got them to eat the apple, he made mankind.  
"When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.  Basically, I believe God made more adam and Eves after he made the first couple.  Adam and Eve were made from the dirt.  After God made them, he breathed into them.  What did God breath into them?  I say a male and female soul but that's just a guess.  He breathed two souls and no gender works with me as well sine we dont really know.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Your argument is that the virus in Japan ran out of productive mutations, but the virus in other countries did not?
> 
> What a fascinating theory.   It is bat shit crazy, but fascinating.


People smart enough to know better, like Grace presumably, find ways to tip-toe around  blatant insanity (they are fed bs statistics to back their play, of which she trots out ad nauseam), but when it comes right down to it bat-shit crazy doesn’t necessarily always mean stupid. Although sometimes the two do coincide. I’m glad you were able to see it and call it out.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Something you won't show.  Based on your history of mistaking, exaggerating, and just plain lying about things you have posted, I won't believe it until I see it.


And I care exactly how?   Yes, it's how little I actually think of you.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> People smart enough to know better, like Grace presumably, find ways to tip-toe around  blatant insanity (they are fed bs statistics to back their play, of which she trots out ad nauseam), but when it comes right down to it bat-shit crazy doesn’t necessarily always mean stupid. Although sometimes the two do coincide. I’m glad you were able to see it and call it out.


I love it that you guys are calling experts in the field bat-shit crazy and insanity.  You just proved exactly what I had been beating dad4 with: you only care about experts that agree with you and agree with your priors.  You aren't willing to think out of the box (even if such thinking may prove wrong) or critically, which is the opposite of what science really is.  You believe in dogma, and I think here and now, you've proven it and what some of us have been saying now for a while.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you ever ask yourself why a "right-wing media" even exists?


Oh, I get it. This is why I made a point of clearly stating the damage done by the left wing media’s obsession with the Tuskegee experiement.  

But that doesn’t mean I cut either side slack for it.  In both cases, it is deliberately slanted reporting to appeal to a poorly informed base.  The result is that the base ends up even more poorly informed.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I love it that you guys are calling experts in the field bat-shit crazy and insanity.  You just proved exactly what I had been beating dad4 with: you only care about experts that agree with you and agree with your priors.  You aren't willing to think out of the box (even if such thinking may prove wrong) or critically, which is the opposite of what science really is.  You believe in dogma, and I think here and now, you've proven it and what some of us have been saying now for a while.


You assume that we believe your summary of what this particular scientist says.  

I gave up on your summaries a while ago.  The simplest explanation is that the scientist is explaining something interesting, and you just got it wrong again.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You assume that we believe your summary of what this particular scientist says.
> 
> I gave up on your summaries a while ago.  The simplest explanation is that the scientist is explaining something interesting, and you just got it wrong again.


Again, don't really care if you believe me or not.  You are free to look it up on your own and make a critique.  I've already stated I don't have the chops to evaluate what he said, and it's entirely possible the press misunderstood or exaggerating his claims

p.s. it's fun having all 3 of you to play with.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> you can't figure that one out on your own?  Whoosh!  You really are going man....while you were never great you were better than this.  Condolenscences....it sucks but happens to us all.
> 
> In short: you would have been on the side of the church (because it's the establishment) instead of the out of the box thinker Galileo.


What are you talking about?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You aren't answering the question.  If Adam and Eve were the first humans, where did the people in Nod come from.  Again, sad.


Didn't God create everything?  Wasn't Nod part of everything?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension.  The laziness refers to him not looking or following along to the prior articles/study/video.
> 
> As to Galileo...it's old ground.  I'm shorthanding here because I'm busy (which is a fair critique) but my assumption is that even he would get it.


I won't pretend to read your mind.  If you have something to say, just say it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Didn't God create everything?  Wasn't Nod part of everything?


Hence, my question to the nun: Did God create other humans after Adam and Eve.  She didn't like the question.  It means Adam and Eve aren't as special as she makes them up  She rather not have thought about it.

When we get to the perpetual virginity of Mary, it got even more fun.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I won't pretend to read your mind.  If you have something to say, just say it.


It's not a question of reading minds (even dad 4 could follow along despite his reading comprehension issues).  It's YOU can't follow along (hence the nickname for you).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> And I care exactly how?   Yes, it's how little I actually think of you.


So why do you keep responding?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's not a question of reading minds (even dad 4 could follow along despite his reading comprehension issues).  It's YOU can't follow along (hence the nickname for you).


That's the core of your whole position -- you blast out with the ad hominems when you run out of facts.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So why do you keep responding?


Because it's fun to troll the troll and mama bear troll in particular is VERY VERY funny.  You really did make me out and out belly laugh.  Wow...you are just figuring that out?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's the core of your whole position -- you blast out with the ad hominems when you run out of facts.


Again, says the king of ad hominems.  Neither you nor Busker nor dad4 is in ANY position to complain about this.  Glass houses.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, says the king of ad hominems.  Neither you nor Busker nor dad4 is in ANY position to complain about this.  Glass houses.


Criticizing your arguments is not an ad hominem response.  Lobbing out "reading comprehension" taunts and the like is.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Criticizing your arguments is not an ad hominem response.  Lobbing out "reading comprehension" taunts and the like is.


Your first step in the Magoo two step is usually "Coocoo" or "Nonsense".  That's no different than a critique of your reading comprehension, which you've repeatedly shown is an issue for you.  You just made me laugh again...thank you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your first step in the Magoo two step is usually "Coocoo" or "Nonsense".  That's no different than a critique of your reading comprehension, which you've repeatedly shown is an issue for you.  You just made me laugh again...thank you.


"Coocoo" and "nonsense" are directed at the content, not the poster.  "Magoo two step" is an ad hominem.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Coocoo" and "nonsense" are directed at the content, not the poster.  "Magoo two step" is an ad hominem.


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!  That is really the funniest thing you've ever written.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!  That is really the funniest thing you've ever written.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What did I get wrong?


We're back to the Magoo Two Step.  "What did I get wrong?" is one of my favorite parts.  It's a catchy part of the song, the moves are challenging without being overtly confusing, and it isn't too ostentatious in its presentation.

Next you'll be telling me properly describing dad 4 as an authoritarian is an ad hominem but implying I "get it wrong" repeatedly isn't.  The gaslighting from you 3 is really incredible, particularly when it comes to ads.

You know perfectly well.  I'm not going to draw you a diagram.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We're back to the Magoo Two Step.  "What did I get wrong?" is one of my favorite parts.  It's a catchy part of the song, the moves are challenging without being overtly confusing, and it isn't too ostentatious in its presentation.
> 
> Next you'll be telling me properly describing dad 4 as an authoritarian is an ad hominem but implying I "get it wrong" repeatedly isn't.  The gaslighting from you 3 is really incredible, particularly when it comes to ads.
> 
> You know perfectly well.  I'm not going to draw you a diagram.


You do get it wrong repeatedly, and I show your error every time I find one.  That's addressing your content, not your character.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You do get it wrong repeatedly, and I show your error every time I find one.  That's addressing your content, not your character.


Same with authoritarianism.  His content is repeatedly authoritarian...and your content repeatedly loses the thread and you repeatedly do this little nonsensical dance with many have now called you on.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Same with authoritarianism.  His content is repeatedly authoritarian...and your content repeatedly loses the thread and you repeatedly do this little nonsensical dance with many have now called you on.


No, I don't.  Pursuing facts is not a "nonsensical dance".


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, I don't.  Pursuing facts is not a "nonsensical dance".



Hahahahahahaha!  That's even funnier than the last one.

BTW, I think it's just so darn funny that I've actually gotten a troll into a loop to try and defend and justify his own behavior.  This is totally epic dude.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hahahahahahaha!  That's even funnier than the last one.
> 
> BTW, I think it's just so darn funny that I've actually gotten a troll into a loop to try and defend and justify his own behavior.  This is totally epic dude.


It looks like you have lost the thread.  What is wrong with pursuing facts?  What is wrong with asking people to clarify their comments?  What is wrong with expecting posters to provide the source of their otherwise unsupported conclusions?  

A challenge for you -- how many posts can you go without backing into a Magoo ad hominem?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It looks like you have lost the thread.  What is wrong with pursuing facts?  What is wrong with asking people to clarify their comments?  What is wrong with expecting posters to provide the source of their otherwise unsupported conclusions?
> 
> A challenge for you -- how many posts can you go without backing into a Magoo ad hominem?


Because that's not what you do.  If you were really going to do that, you would ask an intelligent question or make an intelligent comment.  But what we get from you is the "coocoo" or "nonsense" or the partisan rhetoric or the laziness or just the general getting lost.   You are more interested in trolling than getting to any sort of truth.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Because that's not what you do.  If you were really going to do that, you would ask an intelligent question or make an intelligent comment.  But what we get from you is the "coocoo" or "nonsense" or the partisan rhetoric or the laziness or just the general getting lost.   You are more interested in trolling than getting to any sort of truth.


That's totally false ad hominems, as expected.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's totally false ad hominems, as expected.



Hahahahahahahah!  That's the best one yet!  I'm describing what you do!  It's seriously the distinction you drew!  OMG I'm laughing in tears here.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> That Japanese epidemiologist.


Actually, if you could link this I'd be interested.  Maybe you already did, but, you know, there's lots of stuff and I skim most of it quickly.  With the new kid on the block we are already seeing people who should know better confusing infectivity with virulence in terms of evolutionary arguments about where Cov-2 is going.  Don't know if that is what this is but would like to check it out.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> That's totally false ad hominems, as expected.


You are responding to an ego not a real person.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Actually, if you could link this I'd be interested.  Maybe you already did, but, you know, there's lots of stuff and I skim most of it quickly.  With the new kid on the block we are already seeing people who should know better confusing infectivity with virulence in terms of evolutionary arguments about where Cov-2 is going.  Don't know if that is what this is but would like to check it out.


A few caveats.  The first is Prof. Inoue of the Japanese National Institute of Genetics is the source.  The original paper is in Japanese.  I don't have the time to give it the half hour - hour it takes to find the summaries (some of them are bad, some of them particularly in the scie journals) are better, but I am very busy which is partially the reason I don't just post it (as I've written before this takes up maybe 10% of my attention while I'm multitasking).  I don't book mark things (posting stuff here is I'm kind of like a little kid collecting interesting colored stones in a basket).  But I'll send you the video previously posted by PM (don't want to brook espola's laziness and the summary is around minute 10.....Campbell is discussing a bunch of theories for why Japan is acting the way it does and starts with Ivermectin and goes into the defense enzyme which the Japanese may have a higher proportion of....you can do research from there).  Again, don't know if it's true or not.  Don't really care.  I just found it an interesting colored stone.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are responding to an ego not a real person.


This is actually a fair criticism.


----------



## Grace T.

Another pretty stone.  Comparing reinfection rates on the vaxxed, recovered, vaxxed+recovered, recovered+vaxx. Recovered provides longer lasting and more robust protection than just vaxxed.  All 4 fade with time.  



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1.full.pdf


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hahahahahahahah!  That's the best one yet!  I'm describing what you do!  It's seriously the distinction you drew!  OMG I'm laughing in tears here.


Your suggestion was that I don't ask intelligent questions.  When I do, you run away with "reading comprehension" and "Magoo" and the like.  For example, I attempted to have a meaningful discussion on the "run out of mutations" point", even to the extent of reviewing the thread where you claimed the original discussion was.  I didn't find it. When I asked for support from you, you called me lazy, despite the fact that I was doing all the heavy lifting in that discussion.

Anybody can read the thread and see your evasions and ad hominems for themselves.  You don't have a lot to be proud of there.  And now you are cackling as if you scored some point, instead of just running away.  There is a social/psychological term for that behavior, but the name of the term escapes me.  It's on the line of "false bravado", but that's not exactly the term I'm thinking of.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are responding to an ego not a real person.


I think her ego is overruling her common sense.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> This is actually a fair criticism.


and hilarious given it comes from a multi-aliased troll


----------



## Grace T.

Speaking of criticism of how the media handled COVID....



			https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/12/05/mollie_hemingway_media_seems_completely_incapable_of_cost-benefit_analysis_when_it_comes_to_covid-19.html


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Your suggestion was that I don't ask intelligent questions.  When I do, you run away with "reading comprehension" and "Magoo" and the like.  For example, I attempted to have a meaningful discussion on the "run out of mutations" point", even to the extent of reviewing the thread where you claimed the original discussion was.  I didn't find it. When I asked for support from you, you called me lazy, despite the fact that I was doing all the heavy lifting in that discussion.
> 
> Anybody can read the thread and see your evasions and ad hominems for themselves.  You don't have a lot to be proud of there.  And now you are cackling as if you scored some point, instead of just running away.  There is a social/psychological term for that behavior, but the name of the term escapes me.  It's on the line of "false bravado", but that's not exactly the term I'm thinking of.


No you didn't.  For an example of meaningful discussion, see what evil goalie did.  What you did was not that.

Again, I can't help it if you lose the threads or can't fully follow them.  What you did is the Magoo Two Step, which is your MO, and I'm not even the one that first called you out with it (kuddos to him....it's very clever).

And there's an easy name which doesn't escape anyone for what you do....we've all seen it...I'm one of a dozen that have called you out on it: troll.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I think her ego is overruling her common sense.


Here's the difference between you and I:

-I readily concede my ego is a valid criticism.  However, I have something to back it up (several things actually but I'll just, in an attempt to keep my ego in check name one): that I've been more right than the gruesome troll trio + dad 4 throughout this entire thing.  

-You have an amazing ego as well (ever notice that you are your own favorite subject?).  However, to date, I've seen very little to back it up....instead what we get is reading comprehension issues, short pithy sayings you think are clever or show your debating prowess, the Two Step, general trollish behavior, getting lost and crashing, picking up on weird little threads that lose the main point of the argument, and a general crankiness.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A few caveats.  The first is Prof. Inoue of the Japanese National Institute of Genetics is the source.  The original paper is in Japanese.  I don't have the time to give it the half hour - hour it takes to find the summaries (some of them are bad, some of them particularly in the scie journals) are better, but I am very busy which is partially the reason I don't just post it (as I've written before this takes up maybe 10% of my attention while I'm multitasking).  I don't book mark things (posting stuff here is I'm kind of like a little kid collecting interesting colored stones in a basket).  But I'll send you the video previously posted by PM (don't want to brook espola's laziness and the summary is around minute 10.....Campbell is discussing a bunch of theories for why Japan is acting the way it does and starts with Ivermectin and goes into the defense enzyme which the Japanese may have a higher proportion of....you can do research from there).  Again, don't know if it's true or not.  Don't really care.  I just found it an interesting colored stone.


At last, some intellectual content!  That Campbell video, which you haven't mentioned in your previous defense of your coocoo biology, was posted Nov. 23, not last week.  Also, nowhere in that video does Campbell discuss running out of mutations, so that is at least one mis-statement you made, adding to your medal count in that category.  

I take issue with Campbell's implication that all or almost all of the virus particles inhabiting Japanese victims stumbled into the same self-limiting mutations, ignoring the random nature of genetic mutations that are at the core of molecular genetic evolution.  I find more interesting his comments on the APOBEC3A in Asian populations (except perhaps Koreans).

Unless you had some different Campbell video in mind than this one --






which is titled "Ivermectin in Japan".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> No you didn't.  For an example of meaningful discussion, see what evil goalie did.  What you did was not that.
> 
> Again, I can't help it if you lose the threads or can't fully follow them.  What you did is the Magoo Two Step, which is your MO, and I'm not even the one that first called you out with it (kuddos to him....it's very clever).
> 
> And there's an easy name which doesn't escape anyone for what you do....we've all seen it...I'm one of a dozen that have called you out on it: troll.


Oops, there's that Magoo thing again.  How far did you get - 2 or 3 posts before relapsing?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Oops, there's that Magoo thing again.  How far did you get - 2 or 3 posts before relapsing?


What makes you think I'm even interested in your challenge?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What makes you think I'm even interested in your challenge?


I gave you the opportunity to better yourself.  You failed.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> At last, some intellectual content!  That Campbell video, which you haven't mentioned in your previous defense of your coocoo biology, was posted Nov. 23, not last week.  Also, nowhere in that video does Campbell discuss running out of mutations, so that is at least one mis-statement you made, adding to your medal count in that category.
> 
> I take issue with Campbell's implication that all or almost all of the virus particles inhabiting Japanese victims stumbled into the same self-limiting mutations, ignoring the random nature of genetic mutations that are at the core of molecular genetic evolution.  I find more interesting his comments on the APOBEC3A in Asian populations (except perhaps Koreans).
> 
> Unless you had some different Campbell video in mind than this one --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which is titled "Ivermectin in Japan".


1. see the criticism I levelled and how EvilGoalie approaches it.   What you do is troll.  Evil Goalie did is different.
2. It's not my coocoo biology. again, have no dog in this hunt.
3. I conceded to evil goalie I expressed it inartfully.  Again, I have no dog in this hunt and am not particularly interested in whether its right or wrong except from a purely curiosity point of view.  YOU barged into a conversation kicking and I were having, in which this was basically a throw away, and then just ran with it, like a curious mad dog with abone.
4. It's not Campbell's implication.  He's interpreting the Japanese paper.  You can criticize whether he understood it properly or not, but you'd have to go back to the original Japanese.
5. I already stated I don't have the chops to determine whether it's correct or not or to form an opinion, beyond its a colorful stone.   Yawn.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I gave you the opportunity to better yourself.  You failed.


Coming from the mama bear of the trolls, that's rich.  Coming from someone who is far from being "better", that's hilarious.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting thread on pandemic planning then and now.

Basically the long and short of it is the public health authorities have been guessing, making it up as they go along.  Science TM!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317223302180593664


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Coming from the mama bear of the trolls, that's rich.  Coming from someone who is far from being "better", that's hilarious.


There's that thing again of which I can't think of the proper name.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> There's that thing again of which I can't think of the proper name.


There's criticizing people for ads again when you are the king of it.

And again, the name for you is pretty clear and obvious to everyone: troll.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. see the criticism I levelled and how EvilGoalie approaches it.   What you do is troll.  Evil Goalie did is different.
> 2. It's not my coocoo biology. again, have no dog in this hunt.
> 3. I conceded to evil goalie I expressed it inartfully.  Again, I have no dog in this hunt and am not particularly interested in whether its right or wrong except from a purely curiosity point of view.  YOU barged into a conversation kicking and I were having, in which this was basically a throw away, and then just ran with it, like a curious mad dog with abone.
> 4. It's not Campbell's implication.  He's interpreting the Japanese paper.  You can criticize whether he understood it properly or not, but you'd have to go back to the original Japanese.
> 5. I already stated I don't have the chops to determine whether it's correct or not or to form an opinion, beyond its a colorful stone.   Yawn.


Since all I have to go on here is Campbell's video, I limit myself to criticizing that (ignoring for the moment your mistaken characterizations of the video).


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> That's totally false ad hominems, as expected.


Seriously boomer, take the "L" along with a nap, you're embarrassing yourself.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Since all I have to go on here is Campbell's video, I limit myself to criticizing that (ignoring for the moment your mistaken characterizations of the video).


And then you dispute you are lazy.  As I pointed out to Evil, I gave him the video to start his research, not to end it....not that I care...if that's where you want to end it you are an adult and free to.  Again, it just shows you are less interested in truth than scoring points, hence the different reaction to evil (the "better" way to do it) and you (the "trollish" unvaluable way to do it).


----------



## espola

espola said:


> There's that thing again of which I can't think of the proper name.


These are no help -- these are just slang terms where I am looking for is an appropriate psychological term.






						Urban Thesaurus - Find Synonyms for Slang Words
					






					urbanthesaurus.org


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> And then you dispute you are lazy.  As I pointed out to Evil, I gave him the video to start his research, not to end it....not that I care...if that's where you want to end it you are an adult and free to.  Again, it just shows you are less interested in truth than scoring points, hence the different reaction to evil (the "better" way to do it) and you (the "trollish" unvaluable way to do it).


I was trying the better way, asking for you for support to your coocoo claim.  You called me lazy and criticized my reading comprehension, among other things.

BTW, have you decided what you meant by your "Galileo" comment yet?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> These are no help -- these are just slang terms where I am looking for is an appropriate psychological term.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Urban Thesaurus - Find Synonyms for Slang Words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> urbanthesaurus.org


A banner day for you espola.  Great mama bear trolling.  Expert comedy.  Funniest ever.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I was trying the better way, asking for you for support to your coocoo claim.  You called me lazy and criticized my reading comprehension, among other things.
> 
> BTW, have you decided what you meant by your "Galileo" comment yet?


nope...that's not what you did and we all know it.  what you did is trolling.  Take your own missive at betterment if you really care and see what evil goalie did.  But we know you don't really care.  What you are interested in is trolling.  Which is why the "better" remark is some real first class, hilarious gaslighting.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> nope...that's not what you did and we all know it.  what you did is trolling.  Take your own missive at betterment if you really care and see what evil goalie did.  But we know you don't really care.  What you are interested in is trolling.  Which is why the "better" remark is some real first class, hilarious gaslighting.


"...we all know.."?  Now you are just outright lying.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "...we all know.."?  Now you are just outright lying.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  On fire today.....really.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> View attachment 12279


How, exactly, is "safe" defined? Is it "safe" to get in your car? Is it "safe" to play soccer? Is it "safe" to think about whether it is safe to hang out with everyone you meet? For most people, I'd bet the risk of bad outcomes is greater for those constantly assessing whether hanging out with someone is safe than the risk of bad outcomes from COVID for those who are just going about their lives without giving their risk of COVID much thought.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> How, exactly, is "safe" defined? Is it "safe" to get in your car? Is it "safe" to play soccer? Is it "safe" to think about whether it is safe to hang out with everyone you meet? For most people, I'd bet the risk of bad outcomes is greater for those constantly assessing whether hanging out with someone is safe than the risk of bad outcomes from COVID for those who are just going about their lives without giving their risk of COVID much thought.


Play on words and people fall for it.  The business owners in NYC had no idea or a little heads up on the preemptive strike he did on the city of NY.  The business owners had no idea about this bomb.  Crazy move.  Let's see WHO obeys daddy before he leave....


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> View attachment 12279


Can the forever jabbers just go live somewhere all together ?

I’ll give them NYC, DC, and LA


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Can the forever jabbers just go live somewhere all together ?
> 
> I’ll give them NYC, DC, and LA


I'll give them more then that if they jab away from me.  These people Pro-Jabbers are ill and I mean mentally ill.  Full of fear and full of shit now.  I understand fear and respect it and have lived in fear most of my life.  The full of shit part is what has me and many others I know pissed off,  People getting fired and all that.  I have friends who are jabbed but not jab for life.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I'll give them more then that if they jab away from me.  These people Pro-Jabbers are ill and I mean mentally ill.  Full of fear and full of shit now.  I understand fear and respect it and have lived in fear most of my life.  The full of shit part is what has me and many others I know pissed off,  People getting fired and all that.  I have friends who are jabbed but not jab for life.


they could even have a super duper UBer ECNL league , really exclusive


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I'll give them more then that if they jab away from me.  These people Pro-Jabbers are ill and I mean mentally ill.  Full of fear and full of shit now.  I understand fear and respect it and have lived in fear most of my life.  The full of shit part is what has me and many others I know pissed off,  People getting fired and all that.  I have friends who are jabbed but not jab for life.


the forever jabbers don’t want to interact with a non forever jabber, I understand it’s hard to come around to that , but it is what it is , gotta move on


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> View attachment 12279


Headline Change

*How to Socialize Safely in the Booster Era*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Can the forever jabbers just go live somewhere all together ?
> 
> I’ll give them NYC, DC, and LA


I don't mind living with them as long as they don't attempt to require everyone to get every jab, and this is coming from someone who has 3 jabs already.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Do you have a better explanation for the ridiculously low vaccine rate among Republicans?
> 
> I treat it as decent people who have been lied to.  Are you saying they were well informed and intelligently chose a higher death rate?


The majority of Republicans are vaccinated.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't mind living with them as long as they don't attempt to require everyone to get every jab, and this is coming from someone who has 3 jabs already.


That is where it won't happen. Here is an example of how it will work.


----------



## Desert Hound

Some very good points.

They screwed the kids.









						Mask mandates are harming our kids’ development
					

Classrooms may finally be open around the country, but we continue to live with the consequences of masking our children and hurting their cognitive health, Karol Markowicz writes.




					nypost.com


----------



## crush

*This Dr. F is something else.......*











						With omicron out there, here's how to decide if you should attend that holiday party, according to Dr. Fauci
					

Is it safe to go to a holiday party while Covid's omicron variant is circulating? Here's what White House chief medical advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci recommends.




					www.cnbc.com
				




Is it safe to attend a holiday party DR *If everyone at your party is vaccinated?*

If you’re vaccinated and gathering with other vaccinated people, the answer is a simple “yes,” White House chief medical advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said in a briefing last week. Ideally, every guest should be boosted, too.


*If anyone at your party is unvaccinated (or unwilling to share)*

If anyone’s* unvaccinated at your party* — including small children who aren’t yet vaccine-eligible — or* unwilling to share their vaccination status,* your *decision gets much harder*. You’ll face a* higher risk of getting sick* *or transmitting the virus to someone else, even if you’re fully vaccinated yourself. (?????)*

If you’re hosting such a party ((shame on you)), you should rely on a combination of safety strategies, like gathering outdoors, wearing masks and maintaining social distance. ((That sounds like a stupid party.  No thanks!!))  You can also *ask your unvaccinated guests to quarantine* ((Don't bother with the invite)) and get tested before the event ((Never)), as an additional layer of assurance.  ((Dont waste your time Pro-Vax only))

*The risk grows further if you’re in a “public congregate setting,” where you can’t realistically know who’s vaccinated, Fauci said last week*. That could mean an office holiday party at an indoor bar where vaccination isn’t required, or *even taking a crowded bus home.
In those situations, “it is very prudent to wear a mask,” Fauci said. “That’s what I do.” *You can briefly lower your mask to safely eat a cookie or drink some eggnog, but try to keep it on as much as possible.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> There's that thing again of which I can't think of the proper name.


If that term is Cognitive Dissonance, then many on this forum are suffering from it.


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> Some very good points.
> 
> They screwed the kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mask mandates are harming our kids’ development
> 
> 
> Classrooms may finally be open around the country, but we continue to live with the consequences of masking our children and hurting their cognitive health, Karol Markowicz writes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Can't believe we missed this.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> The majority of Republicans are vaccinated.


Majority is a pretty low bar


----------



## Grace T.

Top line for the morning run down in the omicron news: cases so far have been relatively mild with very few hospitalizations.  Symptoms tend to resemble a cold more than classic covid. The us does very little sequencing but already accounted for 16% of sequencing.  Within 6-8 weeks from now it should be the dominant form globally.   They still aren’t sure if the breakthrough rate on the vaccine or how much vaccinated people can spread it but both numbers appear to be shaping up to be high from a handful of superspreader events.

the problem we are now faced with is a casedemic. Cases are going to go through the roof. Everyone that’s out and about (including school children) will fall ill with it or be exposed.  It means governments need to be effectively preparing for all schools and most large work sites (from construction to supermarkets to ports) to be shut down for a lack of workers if we are going to require people to quarantine. Hospitals may also be overwhelmed even if the severity is low because a small percentage of a huge number can still be large particularly if everyone falls ill at once. Bottom line: if things continue on track even if the governments don’t enact npis school, sports and many businesses and the supply lines are effectively going to be disrupted (how badly is anyone’s guess but it’s looking bad in early signs) as long as we are doing the testing/remove people for exposure, even if this is shaping up to be just a bad cold.


----------



## Grace T.

I heard a news report on the radio that a kid in lausd was vaccinated without his parents consent?   Apparently was bribed with free pizza?  Anyone have a link?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I heard a news report on the radio that a kid in lausd was vaccinated without his parents consent?   Apparently was bribed with free pizza?  Anyone have a link?


This is one I found with a Google search. I know nothing about the site.









						CA School Bribed Boy with Pizza to Get Covid Jab Without Parent's Consent, Told Him to Keep it Secret
					

A 13-year-old child was offered pizza in exchange for the covid jab at his school and was given the shot without his parents' consent.




					thefreethoughtproject.com
				




I'm not even a little surprised if this is true. It's a power struggle and there are many incidents of public schools usurping parental/family power such as forcing PE on athletes who participate in sports outside of the school system and not accepting credits from UC-approved courses as pre-requisites (posted this a while ago). The power grab will continue as long as we allow it.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> I heard a news report on the radio that a kid in lausd was vaccinated without his parents consent?   Apparently was bribed with free pizza?  Anyone have a link?


this happened in Maryland , vaccinated. Kid by mistake who had not gotten parental consent

totally normal, nothing to see here


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Top line for the morning run down in the omicron news: cases so far have been relatively mild with very few hospitalizations.  Symptoms tend to resemble a cold more than classic covid. The us does very little sequencing but already accounted for 16% of sequencing.  Within 6-8 weeks from now it should be the dominant form globally.   They still aren’t sure if the breakthrough rate on the vaccine or how much vaccinated people can spread it but both numbers appear to be shaping up to be high from a handful of superspreader events.
> 
> the problem we are now faced with is a casedemic. Cases are going to go through the roof. Everyone that’s out and about (including school children) will fall ill with it or be exposed.  It means governments need to be effectively preparing for all schools and most large work sites (from construction to supermarkets to ports) to be shut down for a lack of workers if we are going to require people to quarantine. Hospitals may also be overwhelmed even if the severity is low because a small percentage of a huge number can still be large particularly if everyone falls ill at once. Bottom line: if things continue on track even if the governments don’t enact npis school, sports and many businesses and the supply lines are effectively going to be disrupted (how badly is anyone’s guess but it’s looking bad in early signs) as long as we are doing the testing/remove people for exposure, even if this is shaping up to be just a bad cold.


I'm hearing anecdotal information where individuals are getting what they think is a cold and the Dr. tells them that if they don't have a fever, don't bother getting tested and they find out later that they had Corona. I also have a feeling a lot of people had Corona with mild symptoms and never reported it and will get Corona with mild symptoms and not report it. What is the incentive to do so? The milder the symptoms, the less likely the virus will be identified through testing. Here's to hoping that this is a significant proportion of cases. It would mean the calculated severity using cases is overstated.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bad policy causes "unintended" consequences.


_With the holidays around the corner, Americans are experiencing inflated prices, goods shortages, and long shipping times. Right now would be the perfect time to simplify the transport of needed goods from the United States’s No. 1 trading partner: Canada. M*ore than $300 billion in truck freight came into the U.S. from Canada in 2020, and the loss of any significant portion of this will further hike prices and cause more empty shelves*. Canadian and international goods arrive through our border crossings, and the White House is imposing a stiff travel restriction for all residents entering the country. Not only do tourists and visitors need to show proof of vaccination, *but so do truck drivers. The new regulation, taking effect on Jan. 22, will further ensnare the arrival of both raw materials and finished goods into the country.*

Considering that more than half of the freight entering the U.S. from Canada comes via truck, the effects will be immediate. *Approximately 20 percent of Canada’s truckers are unvaxxed.









						Biden's proposals spark phase 2 of supply chain crisis
					

Biden's policies will prolong suffering from the pandemic and anemic economic growth, and will fail ordinary people.




					thehill.com
				



*_


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is one I found with a Google search. I know nothing about the site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CA School Bribed Boy with Pizza to Get Covid Jab Without Parent's Consent, Told Him to Keep it Secret
> 
> 
> A 13-year-old child was offered pizza in exchange for the covid jab at his school and was given the shot without his parents' consent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefreethoughtproject.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even a little surprised if this is true. It's a power struggle and there are many incidents of public schools usurping parental/family power such as forcing PE on athletes who participate in sports outside of the school system and not accepting credits from UC-approved courses as pre-requisites (posted this a while ago). The power grab will continue as long as we allow it.


I suspect it’s more of a bureaucratic failure than a deliberate power grab.  Line the kids up, forms in the box, get your shot, get your pizza, next kid.  The exceptions are more difficult, and someone screwed up.  You probably had a couple lactose intolerant kids who got cheese, too.


----------



## Brav520

Easy fix , if you are going vaccinate at schools make sure a guardian is present with the child to give consent


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> To the three trolls, no not really. Just shows how much respect I have for you all.  Except for dad4 (who’ll apparently take any allies he’ll get) to the rest of around here you guys are just a joke. I mainly tolerate you for the comedy.
> 
> anybody else who really cares about the issue can either look at the past post, google it, or just take my word for it. But nothing you have ever posted here shows that you have any concern for actually discovering truth (or are even capable of understanding some of the subjects). You just want to troll so more power to you.  And I’ll give it it’s appropriate due.


I've found Espola to be an eloquent fool stuck in his ways.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Eighty years ago, the United States was changed forever. It was on December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor was attacked, and our Nation was stunned and shocked. However, what came of that day saw the _greatest generation—_those who came forward to answer a great challenge as 16 million took up arms in the struggle_—_step up to defend our country.

Each year on December 7th, we come together to honor and remember the 2,403 service members and civilians who were killed and 1,178 injured during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor which permanently sank two U.S. Navy battleships (the USS _Arizona_ and the USS _Utah_) and destroyed 188 aircraft.

It was on that day our courageous men and women, while under attack in Pearl Harbor, unified and used such a tragic event to care for one another like we have never seen before.

So, 80 years later, let us take a moment to remember our Pearl Harbor Veterans, and please take time today to reflect on our mission and responsibility to honor the sacrifices made by our country’s Veterans at Pearl Harbor.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Here's to hoping that this is a significant proportion of cases. It would mean the calculated severity using cases is overstated.


When was this ever NOT the case since this all started.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I was trying the better way, asking for you for support to your coocoo claim.  You called me lazy and criticized my reading comprehension, among other things.
> 
> BTW, have you decided what you meant by your "Galileo" comment yet?


Q.E.D.


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> Easy fix , if you are going vaccinate at schools make sure a guardian is present with the child to give consent


That would a great start.  Besides, why again are we vaccinating a healthy, low risk population?  We will see what happens with the big O but everything points to the sniffles ---- little kids get/have something all the time..walking petri dishes.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I suspect it’s more of a bureaucratic failure than a deliberate power grab.  Line the kids up, forms in the box, get your shot, get your pizza, next kid.  The exceptions are more difficult, and someone screwed up.  You probably had a couple lactose intolerant kids who got cheese, too.


Complete BS.  A minor should only be getting a vaccination under the supervision of their parents regardless of the location.  A kid can't even get medication administered at school by the school nurse without a written prescription by a doctor and a written statement from the parents consenting to the administration of the medicine.  This includes over the counter medication as well.  Schools are uber strict about this.  No f'ing way this was an oversight.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is one I found with a Google search. I know nothing about the site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CA School Bribed Boy with Pizza to Get Covid Jab Without Parent's Consent, Told Him to Keep it Secret
> 
> 
> A 13-year-old child was offered pizza in exchange for the covid jab at his school and was given the shot without his parents' consent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefreethoughtproject.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even a little surprised if this is true. It's a power struggle and there are many incidents of public schools usurping parental/family power such as forcing PE on athletes who participate in sports outside of the school system and not accepting credits from UC-approved courses as pre-requisites (posted this a while ago). The power grab will continue as long as we allow it.


As soon as the term “jab” is used the anti-vax nutter alarm sounds off.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Complete BS.  A minor should only be getting a vaccination under the supervision of their parents regardless of the location.  A kid can't even get medication administered at school by the school nurse without a written prescription by a doctor and a written statement from the parents consenting to the administration of the medicine.  This includes over the counter medication as well.  Schools are uber strict about this.  No f'ing way this was an oversight.


It appears you think they did this on purpose.


----------



## Desert Hound

Brav520 said:


> Easy fix , if you are going vaccinate at schools make sure a guardian is present with the child to give consent


Also remember this. Right now you have to fill out forms at the beginning of the year telling the school what they can give your kid. 

Now they are passing out shots?


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> Also remember this. Right now you have to fill out forms at the beginning of the year telling the school what they can give your kid.
> 
> Now they are passing out shots?


I mean this has to be extremely rare , but I just think schools should be extra cautious with vaccinations , a consent slip is not enough IMO


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> It appears you think they did this on purpose.


You deduction skills are remarkable.  I have a hard time believing it was on accident given the strict requirements for providing medication.  Given the social engineering priorities of LAUSD and the related teachers' union it wouldn't surprise me if this there was a decision to err on the side of vaccination since that is the "preferred" protection against Covid.  Given the recent lack of consideration for parental rights its plausible that they took an "ask for forgiveness, not permission approach". (Assuming that this story is true).

The State's own regulations require a doctor's prescription for any medical treatment including OTC.  How are they getting around this for the Covid vaccinations?  Something doesn't smell right.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> I mean this has to be extremely rare , but I just think schools should be extra cautious with vaccinations , a consent slip is not enough IMO


Agreed, it's not enough for this where it is so obviously divisive.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You deduction skills are remarkable.  I have a hard time believing it was on accident given the strict requirements for providing medication.  Given the social engineering priorities of LAUSD and the related teachers' union it wouldn't surprise me if this there was a decision to err on the side of vaccination since that is the "preferred" protection against Covid.  Given the recent lack of consideration for parental rights its plausible that they took an "ask for forgiveness, not permission approach". (Assuming that this story is true).
> 
> The State's own regulations require a doctor's prescription for any medical treatment including OTC.  How are they getting around this for the Covid vaccinations?  Something doesn't smell right.


You're leaving a lot of "ifs" in there.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Agreed, it's not enough for this where it is so obviously divisive.


When did public health suddenly become divisive?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> When did public health suddenly become divisive?


Do you mean public health, like abortion? God, you are a clueless troll. @dad4 deserves better allies.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You deduction skills are remarkable.  I have a hard time believing it was on accident given the strict requirements for providing medication.  Given the social engineering priorities of LAUSD and the related teachers' union it wouldn't surprise me if this there was a decision to err on the side of vaccination since that is the "preferred" protection against Covid.  Given the recent lack of consideration for parental rights its plausible that they took an "ask for forgiveness, not permission approach". (Assuming that this story is true).
> 
> The State's own regulations require a doctor's prescription for any medical treatment including OTC.  How are they getting around this for the Covid vaccinations?  Something doesn't smell right.


You’re assuming an amazingly high level of competence and intent from lausd.

Lausd just rolled out a new system wide program.  At one site, someone made a mistake.  

Why does this strike you as unlikely?  Seems par for the course for them.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You’re assuming an amazingly high level of competence and intent from lausd.
> 
> Lausd just rolled out a new system wide program.  At one site, someone made a mistake.
> 
> Why does this strike you as unlikely?  Seems par for the course for them.


The person giving the shot allegedly told the kid to keep it secret.  That's intent.  How are they getting around the requirement for a doctor's prescription?  They're intentionally ignoring State requirements because they want kids vaccinated.  It's pretty straightforward, your just willing to look the other way because you believe everyone should be vaccinated.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean public health, like abortion? God, you are a clueless troll. @dad4 deserves better allies.


That was quite a leap.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> You’re assuming an amazingly high level of competence and intent from lausd.
> 
> Lausd just rolled out a new system wide program.  At one site, someone made a mistake.
> 
> Why does this strike you as unlikely?  Seems par for the course for them.


tend to agree , most government failures can be boiled down to incompetence


----------



## Grace T.

The virus is evolving due to evolutionary pressure to escape immunity (including vaccine immunity).








						Mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2 Evolution Revealing Vaccine-Resistant Mutations in Europe and America - PubMed
					

The importance of understanding SARS-CoV-2 evolution cannot be overlooked. Recent studies confirm that natural selection is the dominating mechanism of SARS-CoV-2 evolution, which favors mutations that strengthen viral infectivity. Here, we demonstrate that vaccine-breakthrough or...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> The person giving the shot allegedly told the kid to keep it secret.  That's intent.  How are they getting around the requirement for a doctor's prescription?  They're intentionally ignoring State requirements because they want kids vaccinated.  It's pretty straightforward, your just willing to look the other way because you believe everyone should be vaccinated.


Intent at an individual scale I can believe.  That just takes one misguided person.  I can even imagine a school site going rogue.

A district wide conspiracy is completely different, because it requires the cooperation of hundreds or thousands of people- some of whom are in legal.  Within that vast conspiracy, more than one person would realize that the district does not need to be on the losing side of a class action lawsuit by anti-vax families.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> The person giving the shot allegedly told the kid to keep it secret.  That's intent.  How are they getting around the requirement for a doctor's prescription?  They're intentionally ignoring State requirements because they want kids vaccinated.  It's pretty straightforward, your just willing to look the other way because you believe everyone should be vaccinated.





Grace T. said:


> The virus is evolving due to evolutionary pressure to escape immunity (including vaccine immunity).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2 Evolution Revealing Vaccine-Resistant Mutations in Europe and America - PubMed
> 
> 
> The importance of understanding SARS-CoV-2 evolution cannot be overlooked. Recent studies confirm that natural selection is the dominating mechanism of SARS-CoV-2 evolution, which favors mutations that strengthen viral infectivity. Here, we demonstrate that vaccine-breakthrough or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


"A new mechanism of viral evolution" is pretty much an astounding claim.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Intent at an individual scale I can believe.  That just takes one misguided person.  I can even imagine a school site going rogue.
> 
> A district wide conspiracy is completely different, because it requires the cooperation of hundreds or thousands of people- some of whom are in legal.  Within that vast conspiracy, more than one person would realize that the district does not need to be on the losing side of a class action lawsuit by anti-vax families.


Remember the old party game gossip?  This discussion is at least 6 levels deep into that.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Intent at an individual scale I can believe.  That just takes one misguided person.  I can even imagine a school site going rogue.
> 
> A district wide conspiracy is completely different, because it requires the cooperation of hundreds or thousands of people- some of whom are in legal.  Within that vast conspiracy, more than one person would realize that the district does not need to be on the losing side of a class action lawsuit by anti-vax families.


How are they getting around the state regulations that require a doctor's prescription?  My presumption is that the State like the big school districts want the kids vaccinated so they all are willing to relax the rules to suit there desired outcome.  I'm not saying there is a vast conspiracy to get kids vaccinated against their parent's wishes, but there certainly appears to be a willingness to play fast and loose with the rules.  It's symptom of the mentality that we know what's best for you.

Just the whole concept of rewarding kids for getting a vaccination is very unseemly.


----------



## Desert Hound

How does one break women's records if that person is a guy?

Off topic from the vaxx...but near and dear to me because I have a daughter.

*Fury as transgender UPenn swimmer, 22, who used to compete as a man smashes TWO US women's records in weekend competition and finishes one race 38 seconds ahead of her nearest rival









						Transgender UPenn swimmer Lia Thomas smashes more records by14 seconds
					

Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest. Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



*


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Your comment is directed toward the wrong participant.


It was directed to the correct participant.
You responded correctly and as anticipated.
Thanks Adam Espola Schiff.
How's the Star chamber workin out for you and Liz.


----------



## thirteenknots

Desert Hound said:


> How does one break women's records if that person is a guy?
> 
> Off topic from the vaxx...but near and dear to me because I have a daughter.
> 
> *Fury as transgender UPenn swimmer, 22, who used to compete as a man smashes TWO US women's records in weekend competition and finishes one race 38 seconds ahead of her nearest rival
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transgender UPenn swimmer Lia Thomas smashes more records by14 seconds
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest. Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



CLEAR UNADULTERATED 

CHEATING !!

Think about how many young Ladies just this 
one incident deprived of their hard earned recognition !


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How are they getting around the state regulations that require a doctor's prescription?  My presumption is that the State like the big school districts want the kids vaccinated so they all are willing to relax the rules to suit there desired outcome.  I'm not saying there is a vast conspiracy to get kids vaccinated against their parent's wishes, but there certainly appears to be a willingness to play fast and loose with the rules.  It's symptom of the mentality that we know what's best for you.
> 
> Just the whole concept of rewarding kids for getting a vaccination is very unseemly.


I agree that someone was playing fast and loose with the rules.  I just don’t believe it was hundreds of people, or that it came down from the top.  

This really sounds like the kind of mistake a grassroots person makes.  They know the kid; they know the family almost never manages to turn their forms in for anything.  They decide they can help the kid by letting them have their shot.  They probably think “Why should the kid get sick with covid just because of some stupid form that no one will read anyway?”.   

The top doesn’t think like that.  They think “how do I cover my ass so I’m protected if something goes wrong?”.   People at the top make plenty of mistakes, but not this kind.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> When did public health suddenly become divisive?


Ever since old people were sent to their deaths in nursing homes - circa 2020? Something about people's parents/grandparents dying at the hands of the government makes it divisive.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I agree that someone was playing fast and loose with the rules.  I just don’t believe it was hundreds of people, or that it came down from the top.
> 
> This really sounds like the kind of mistake a grassroots person makes.  They know the kid; they know the family almost never manages to turn their forms in for anything.  They decide they can help the kid by letting them have their shot.  They probably think “Why should the kid get sick with covid just because of some stupid form that no one will read anyway?”.
> 
> The top doesn’t think like that.  They think “how do I cover my ass so I’m protected if something goes wrong?”.   People at the top make plenty of mistakes, but not this kind.


Still doesn't explain how they're getting around the Dr. prescription requirement.  The top in this case may be the State and they're willing to shortcut their own rules for what they determine to be the "greater good".  The State neither cares to or needs to cover their ass.  Furthermore, districts do shady shit all the time, maybe not with explicit support of leadership, but with a wink and a nod.  It's no secret that Newsom has a cozy relationship with the major school districts and unions.


----------



## watfly

Kudos to this school district for putting kids first.  Hopefully more schools will follow suit.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/02/california-unvaccinated-students-inperson-learning-alpine/


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Parents knowingly sent their child to school after they tested positive for Covid-19. 75 classmates were forced to quarantine | CNN
					

One family's decision to send their child to school after testing positive for Covid-19 resulted in dozens of canceled Thanksgiving plans for other classmates, according to a California school district.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Still doesn't explain how they're getting around the Dr. prescription requirement.  The top in this case may be the State and they're willing to shortcut their own rules for what they determine to be the "greater good".  The State neither cares to or needs to cover their ass.  Furthermore, districts do shady shit all the time, maybe not with explicit support of leadership, but with a wink and a nod.  It's no secret that Newsom has a cozy relationship with the major school districts and unions.


The prescription requirement is a legal question, and I am neither a lawyer nor familiar with the law.

Given that it is state law, it probably wasn’t an issue.  As you said, major school districts have a lot of political weight, and the legislature is solidly behind most anti-covid measures.  If they needed a change to state law, it was easy enough to get.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> It was directed to the correct participant.
> You responded correctly and as anticipated.
> Thanks Adam Espola Schiff.
> How's the Star chamber workin out for you and Liz.


You're babbling.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> How does one break women's records if that person is a guy?
> 
> Off topic from the vaxx...but near and dear to me because I have a daughter.
> 
> *Fury as transgender UPenn swimmer, 22, who used to compete as a man smashes TWO US women's records in weekend competition and finishes one race 38 seconds ahead of her nearest rival
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transgender UPenn swimmer Lia Thomas smashes more records by14 seconds
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest. Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Trying to rescue the topic -- was she vaccinated?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ever since old people were sent to their deaths in nursing homes - circa 2020? Something about people's parents/grandparents dying at the hands of the government makes it divisive.


Another babbler.  Must be the weather.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Kudos to this school district for putting kids first.  Hopefully more schools will follow suit.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/02/california-unvaccinated-students-inperson-learning-alpine/


Same story, no paywall.









						Alpine School District develops new school for unvaccinated students
					

If the state's vaccine mandate takes effect next year the district will create the Alpine Choice Academy.




					www.cbs8.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Another babbler.  Must be the weather.


Appears you don't like the answer so you blame an innocent bystander.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Parents knowingly sent their child to school after they tested positive for Covid-19. 75 classmates were forced to quarantine | CNN
> 
> 
> One family's decision to send their child to school after testing positive for Covid-19 resulted in dozens of canceled Thanksgiving plans for other classmates, according to a California school district.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I'm wondering what baldref found to be funny about this.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another babbler.  Must be the weather.


Another one of espola's "not an ad hominem" posts.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> tend to agree , most government failures can be boiled down to incompetence


All the more reason to require a parent/guardian present


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Another one of espola's "not an ad hominem" posts.


I was addressing his content.  I have no opinion of the poster other than that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re assuming an amazingly high level of competence and intent from lausd.
> 
> Lausd just rolled out a new system wide program.  At one site, someone made a mistake.
> 
> Why does this strike you as unlikely?  Seems par for the course for them.


All the more reason to have a parent or guardian present.


----------



## baldref

espola said:


> I'm wondering what baldref found to be funny about this.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> As soon as the term “jab” is used the anti-vax nutter alarm sounds off.


That's just your anti-science alarm.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I was addressing his content.  I have no opinion of the poster other than that.


how did you address the content?  By not addressing the content?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> When did public health suddenly become divisive?


When it became anti-science.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> how did you address the content?  By not addressing the content?


I'm so embarrassed.  What I intended to post was this --

The poster in question, who has always exhibited nothing but intelligence and integrity in his responses, has somehow slumped to posting what can only be characterized as babbling in this post.  Must be the weather.

-- but my finger slipped.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Same story, no paywall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alpine School District develops new school for unvaccinated students
> 
> 
> If the state's vaccine mandate takes effect next year the district will create the Alpine Choice Academy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbs8.com


I'm waiting for one of those Alpine Karens to figure out that they are being mandated to send their unvaccinated kids to the proposed school.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> How does one break women's records if that person is a guy?
> 
> Off topic from the vaxx...but near and dear to me because I have a daughter.
> 
> *Fury as transgender UPenn swimmer, 22, who used to compete as a man smashes TWO US women's records in weekend competition and finishes one race 38 seconds ahead of her nearest rival
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transgender UPenn swimmer Lia Thomas smashes more records by14 seconds
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest. Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yup, your daughter may as well give up soccer now that a trans athlete broke an Ivy League swim record. It's so unfair that transgender people have all the advantages in life.  Thank goodness for all these privileged soccer Karens complaining how their mediocre athleticism doesn't get them what it used to.


----------



## Brav520

Bruddah IZ said:


> When it became anti-science.


The thing is for the left , they believe government is the solution. If a policy fails , well it’s because they just did not have enough control. Just give em a little more control, and they could fix it

when they hear “ people don”t trust the government “, they don’t even register this as a valid reason

they view the problem as “mis information”

just remember the left doesn’t give 2 shits about mis - information. They also don’t give 2 shits about your grandma when it comes to Covid . The left , primarily legacy media care about being in control and disseminating the information


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Ever since old people were sent to their deaths in nursing homes - circa 2020? Something about people's parents/grandparents dying at the hands of the government makes it divisive.


How do you explain all the dead people in AZ?  Unlike in NY during early Covid, the AZ government has known exactly how Covid-19 is spread and how best to mitigate spread, who is and isn't the most vulnerable, and also how to treat it (including horse paste of course). It's also had access to vaccinations.  Yet, even after learning all of this, AZ has a higher body count per capita than NY. 

There is no excuse.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> The thing is for the left , they believe government is the solution. If a policy fails , well it’s because they just did not have enough control. Just give em a little more control, and they could fix it
> 
> when they hear “ people don”t trust the government “, they don’t even register this as a valid reason
> 
> they view the problem as “mis information”
> 
> just remember the left doesn’t give 2 shits about mis - information. They also don’t give 2 shits about your grandma when it comes to Covid . The left , primarily legacy media care about being in control and disseminating the information


You are correct that we don't care about your unvaccinated grandma.  Fine with me if she gets what she deserves because memes were her primary source of "information". Hopefully she goes fast, though, cuz I'm getting tired of subsidizing all these anti-vax and mask douches' ventilator costs.


----------



## Brav520

And , also don’t let the Golden Gates of the world use your morals against you


so , when people like Golden Gate say, “stop showing up to school board meetings” show up with more people the next time

when commies like Golden Gate say “ just shut up and listen to experts on Covid “ push back harder


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> And , also don’t let the Golden Gates of the world use your morals against you
> 
> 
> so , when people like Golden Gate say, “stop showing up to school board meetings” show up with more people the next time
> 
> when commies like Golden Gate say “ just shut up and listen to experts on Covid “ push back harder


Don't forget your AR-15s.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> You are correct that we don't care about your unvaccinated grandma.  Fine with me if she gets what she deserves because memes were her primary source of "information". Hopefully she goes fast, though, cuz I'm getting tired of subsidizing all these anti-vax and mask douches' ventilator costs.


I’m glad the mask is finally off for people like you


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> tend to agree , most government failures can be boiled down to incompetence





kickingandscreaming said:


> All the more reason to require a parent/guardian present


It's also why schools should not be offering unsolicited mass medical treatment since its susceptible to abuse and mistakes.  It's clearly a backdoor way to attempt to get kids vaccinated whose parents are unmotivated or object to vaccinations for their children, particularly when you are bribing kids to get vaccinated.  Have we ever had our schools offering and administering vaccinations to students on school grounds? Not in my lifetime.

I can't imagine Dad4 that you would ever allow your kids to receive injections without you or your spouse's supervision.  I also can't imagine that if your kid received a vaccination without your consent that you would have such a cavalier attitude about it and just dismiss it as a bureaucratic error.  Try standing in someone else's shoes for once.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468362392388218894


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> Yup, your daughter may as well give up soccer now that a trans athlete broke an Ivy League swim record. It's so unfair that transgender people have all the advantages in life.  Thank goodness for all these privileged soccer Karens complaining how their mediocre athleticism doesn't get them what it used to.


The athleticism of the women athletes was just fine.

The problem is the man's lack of sportsmanship.


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> The thing is for the _*right*_, they believe _*that controlling*_ government is the solution. If a policy fails , well it’s because they just did not have enough control. Just give em a little more control, and they could fix it
> 
> when they hear “ people don”t trust the government “, they don’t even register this as a valid reason
> 
> they view the problem as “mis information”
> 
> just remember the _*right*_ doesn’t give 2 shits about information. They also don’t give 2 shits about your grandma when it comes to Covid . The _*right*_, primarily _*newer*_ media, care about being in control and disseminating the *mis-information*


Fixed that for you


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Brav520 said:


> I’m glad the mask is finally off for people like you


Heʻs just mad he was so wrong about AZ..


----------



## whatithink

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean public health, like abortion? God, you are a clueless troll. @dad4 deserves better allies.


Abortion isn't really divisive. A clear majority of Americans have favored the status quo for decades. Its a wedge issue that politicians have used for a motivated minority to get their votes. You don't actually think those pols give a cr@p about abortion do you?


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> Fixed that for you


not entirely incorrect , there are certainly some who believe that control of government simply changes the landscape


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> Abortion isn't really divisive. A clear majority of Americans have favored the status quo for decades. Its a wedge issue that politicians have used for a motivated minority to get their votes. You don't actually think those pols give a cr@p about abortion do you?


yeah if that status quo is safe, legal, and rare

Celebrating abortion as somehow being the highest form of woman empowerment is not something I think most Americans agree with

Edit: sorry , birthing people empowerment


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> yeah if that status quo is safe, legal, and rare


That's your caveat



Brav520 said:


> Celebrating abortion as somehow being the highest form of woman empowerment is not something I think most Americans agree with


I've never come across anyone celebrating it. It's possible there's a few, of course, but that doesn't make it the norm, irrespective of how vocal or public they may be.


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> not entirely incorrect , there are certainly some who believe that control of government simply changes the landscape


They are two sides of the same coin and as bad as each other. Each selects wedge issues to garner votes, which the other side then screams blue murder about. 

The bizarre thing is that the "left" in the US would be right wing in most other developed countries, certainly in Europe, with a handful of exceptions out of a congressional caucus of 280 odd.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I see multi-aliased, gaslighting trolls who don't realize that it doesn't take a 50-50 split for an issue to be divisive. Others can entertain the aliases that come out of the woodwork after the primary troll aliases get knocked down. I just find them so terribly boring.


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> That's your caveat
> 
> 
> I've never come across anyone celebrating it. It's possible there's a few, of course, but that doesn't make it the norm, irrespective of how vocal or public they may be.


it was the caveat of the left for years, certainly the Clinton years , which wasn’t ancient history


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> They are two sides of the same coin and as bad as each other. Each selects wedge issues to garner votes, which the other side then screams blue murder about.
> 
> The bizarre thing is that the "left" in the US would be right wing in most other developed countries, certainly in Europe, with a handful of exceptions out of a congressional caucus of 280 odd.


Those handful of exceptions have an outsized influence on the Democratic Party 

also, who cares about Europe , we don’t live in Europe


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> Those handful of exceptions have an outsized influence on the Democratic Party
> 
> also, who cares about Europe , we don’t live in Europe


A handful of exceptions have an outsized influence on both parties, the Ds have no monopoly on that.

Its a global economy, so everywhere matters.


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> it was the caveat of the left for years, certainly the Clinton years , which wasn’t ancient history


I've probably killed those brain cells in the decades since, hence my lack of recollection.


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> A handful of exceptions have an outsized influence on both parties, the Ds have no monopoly on that.
> 
> Its a global economy, so everywhere matters.


when Is the next European election , so I can vote

How do most European countries view abortion? Do they have any restrictions?

What about borders , do they protect them,specifically the Scandinavian countries ?


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> when Is the next European election , so I can vote
> 
> How do most European countries view abortion? Do they have any restrictions?
> 
> What about borders , do they protect them,specifically the Scandinavian countries ?


Not sure on when the next EU elections are (for those 27 member countries), or when their national elections are either. For a diverse set of countries, across the continent, speaking so many different languages and having so many different cultures - and having fought so many wars against each other - it is rather enlightening to see how they have come together in a larger project that is mutually beneficial (economically) and in which they sit down and talk to solve problems (rather than what used to happen not so very long ago). It ain't perfect, but its certainly pretty mature and has been hugely beneficial to the member states (including integrating former Eastern block countries - not cheaply either).

Each country has its own defined abortion rights / restrictions.

One EU border and then country borders around that. Of course, some of those countries also have agreements with the EU which makes those borders pretty seamless.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Yup, your daughter may as well give up soccer now that a trans athlete broke an Ivy League swim record. It's so unfair that transgender people have all the advantages in life.  Thank goodness for all these privileged soccer Karens complaining how their mediocre athleticism doesn't get them what it used to.


I think that trans women should not compete in what were formerly known as women's sports for the same reason that their are weight classifications in sports where size and mu


Brav520 said:


> yeah if that status quo is safe, legal, and rare
> 
> Celebrating abortion as somehow being the highest form of woman empowerment is not something I think most Americans agree with
> 
> Edit: sorry , birthing people empowerment


I'll go with safe, legal, rare, and none of your business.

I don't know any woman who celebrates abortion as empowerment.  The empowerment most women see getting a wingnut minority out of their lives.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> when Is the next European election , so I can vote
> 
> How do most European countries view abortion? Do they have any restrictions?
> 
> What about borders , do they protect them,specifically the Scandinavian countries ?


Abortion is legal on request up to 12 weeks development in all countries except Poland, Vatican City, and a handful of mini-states.  Even in those cases, nearby borders allow women to effectively have full choice in the matter.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I think that trans women should not compete in what were formerly known as women's sports for the same reason that their are weight classifications in sports where size and mu
> 
> 
> I'll go with safe, legal, rare, and none of your business.
> 
> I don't know any woman who celebrates abortion as empowerment.  The empowerment most women see getting a wingnut minority out of their lives.


have you seen any of these pro choice wingnuts?

Is the ACLU some fringe organization?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Abortion is legal on request up to 12 weeks development in all countries except Poland, Vatican City, and a handful of mini-states.  Even in those cases, nearby borders allow women to effectively have full choice in the matter.


so as a whole US is more progressive?


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> so as a whole US is more progressive?


Yeah, pretty much. Different countries set their own policy so Ireland, Germany, France is 12 weeks, Austria 14, Netherlands 21 etc. There are exceptions (medical) outside those. Some like Germany also require mandatory counselling and some like Italy allow doctors to opt out if they wish.

You also have the "morning after pill" generally available, with a prescription required in some countries and not others.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> have you seen any of these pro choice wingnuts?
> 
> Is the ACLU some fringe organization?
> 
> View attachment 12296


Oh, look! Someone made a poster!


----------



## Brav520

That the ACLU promoted in a tweet , you missed that small detail


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> That the ACLU promoted in a tweet , you missed that small detail


Promoted?  You must be easily swayed.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Promoted?  You must be easily swayed.


how would you categorize it , do you think the ACLU would tweet a pro life person with a poster that said “Abortion is Murder “?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> How do you explain all the dead people in AZ?  Unlike in NY during early Covid, the AZ government has known exactly how Covid-19 is spread and how best to mitigate spread, who is and isn't the most vulnerable, and also how to treat it (including horse paste of course). It's also had access to vaccinations.  Yet, even after learning all of this, AZ has a higher body count per capita than NY.
> 
> There is no excuse.


I don't have to explain the dead people in AZ.  The topic was how divisive public health has become.  It started with political decisions in NY/NJ and has continued along party lines across the country.  Your U9 tantrum just proves my point.


----------



## Brav520

Yes, we know

NEW - "There’s not going to be an endpoint to this vaccination program...," says New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern.


----------



## crush

*PPST is to blame for all the attacks on the heart.  This is how these liars and cheaters operate.  They lie and twist things so much that if your not paying attention, you will believe their lies.  Post Pandemic Stress Disorder is now the cause for all the heart attacks.  Dad, is this true news?  *


----------



## crush

Please dont tell your parents I gave you free pizza for the shot.  If you play my game the right way, I have other free prizes to give you if you dont tell mommy and daddy.  This is crazy ass bat shit.  Politics have taken over school & sports and that sucks!!!









						A school in LA gave students the vaccine without their parent’s permission
					

A school in LA gave students the vaccine without their parent’s permission after they bribed the students with pizza and told them not to tell their parents




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

One Year Anniversary for Que's last Q drop.  Q drop 4953 Dec 8th, 2020.   Happy Whacky Wednesday Family


----------



## crush

Take a look at Plandemic 3 Trailer.  Wow and wow wow wow!!!  That was a trip down the rabbit hole and eye opening all in one.  Talk about mind control.  I have now saved three people from the matrix 









						'Plandemic 3' - A 'Sneak Peak' (Trailer) [22.11.2021]
					

Plandemic 3 is now in production! This is a rough cut montage of work in progress. To track our progress, go to Plandemicseries.com and join our email list. If you care to contribute to our work, please click on the DONATE button. Thank you!  MONO…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

According to la times story 34000 have not complied with the vaccine mandate and it is too late for them to comply with the deadline.


----------



## Grace T.

The other fresh hellscale I awoke to was dueling studies on whether the boosters are effective in neutralizing the omicron.  Pfizer says the boosters are sufficient to restore protection as the original two shots were against the prime. Groups out of the Netherlands and Israel are disagreeing. Unsurprisingly the debate on sm is already breaking along prior ideological lines with the establishmentarians siding with Pfizer and the contrarians saying it’s wrong. Small bump in the stock market upon Pfizer announcement.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> According to la times story 34000 have not complied with the vaccine mandate and it is too late for them to comply with the deadline.


Lausd.


----------



## crush

Hey Grace T, I heard from my trust worthy Dr. pal from Big U.  He said if you got the Covid 19 & Delta naturally ((I did)) and now get Omicron ((I got a cold last week so you never know if got the cron too and if that's the case, Doc said I will be 100% protected from all three naturally without being jabbed for life.  Basically, the the Omicron eliminants the other two bastards, Covid and Delta, all in one kill and no need for first jab for folks like me, who chose wellness instead of a quick fix.  No meat and no booze and deep meditation. One of my wife's best friends stapled her stomach to make her tummy smaller so she could lose weight and not eat so much.  I have best pal who swears by the shots and will keep doing them as long as Doc says so.  He trust his Doc.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> According to la times story 34000 have not complied with the vaccine mandate and it is too late for them to comply with the deadline.


Hard to believe that there are that many kids that don't like pizza.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The other fresh hellscale I awoke to was dueling studies on whether the boosters are effective in neutralizing the omicron.  Pfizer says the boosters are sufficient to restore protection as the original two shots were against the prime. Groups out of the Netherlands and Israel are disagreeing. Unsurprisingly the debate on sm is already breaking along prior ideological lines with the establishmentarians siding with Pfizer and the contrarians saying it’s wrong. Small bump in the stock market upon Pfizer announcement.


The CEO of Pfizer is a veterinarian, just saying.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> The CEO of Pfizer is a veterinarian, just saying.


What are his thoughts on horse paste?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The other fresh hellscale I awoke to was dueling studies on whether the boosters are effective in neutralizing the omicron.  Pfizer says the boosters are sufficient to restore protection as the original two shots were against the prime. Groups out of the Netherlands and Israel are disagreeing. Unsurprisingly the debate on sm is already breaking along prior ideological lines with the establishmentarians siding with Pfizer and the contrarians saying it’s wrong. Small bump in the stock market upon Pfizer announcement.


Fresh hellscape?   Always the extremes from you.  

We already have evidence from the Norway Christmas party that Omicron does not send vaccinated people to the hospital.  Last I checked, it was 90 infected, zero to hospital.  This is ought to be enough to rule out a “vaccine does nothing” argument, especially when you combine it with the lab results.

Now you have the normal scientific back and forth over quantifying the added benefit.  

No hellscape at all.  They figured out that the Pfizer shot helps against omicron, and are busy establishing the error bars on that statement.  Most of us consider this a good thing. 

Time to re-enter my morning “hellscape“ of tunes and a fresh cup of coffee.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Fresh hellscape?   Always the extremes from you.
> 
> We already have evidence from the Norway Christmas party that Omicron does not send vaccinated people to the hospital.  Last I checked, it was 90 infected, zero to hospital.  This is ought to be enough to rule out a “vaccine does nothing” argument, especially when you combine it with the lab results.
> 
> Now you have the normal scientific back and forth over quantifying the added benefit.
> 
> No hellscape at all.  They figured out that the Pfizer shot helps against omicron, and are busy establishing the error bars on that statement.  Most of us consider this a good thing.
> 
> Time to re-enter my morning “hellscape“ of tunes and a fresh cup of coffee.


Hellscape is a description of the social media war going on right. Now. The issue is not severity of disease. The issue is neutralization. On the one hand you have Pfizer (which has a dubious motive)…on the other groups of Israeli, Dutch and now Germans. The debate thus surrounds whether boosters are necessary (or perhaps people should wait if they’ll be forced to take the omicron booster which Pfizer despite our waiting still for the delta booster has said will be available in 100 days). The debate which is shaping up is whether a booster will really do anything (and thus sell more Pfizer) since a 2 shot dose is sufficient to eliminate the novelty risk in what is apparently a comparatively mild omicron. The debate is already getting heated in those circles because there’s a lot of money at stake (potentially 4 shots worth of it). Reading comprehension. That’s a critique which I’ve been assured by espola is not an ad because I am attacking the message and not your character (eg, another babbler).


----------



## watfly

If you want a few pandemic related chuckles check out South Park-Post Covid (Paramount Plus).  I think Team Virus will appreciate it more than the Covidians but there is some material for them too.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> If you want a few pandemic related chuckles check out South Park-Post Covid (Paramount Plus).  I think Team Virus will appreciate it more than the Covidians but there is some material for them too.


It was great.  I especially loved cartman as an adult and look forward to the arrival of doctor Chaos. The series has never settled on whether Kyle is a good and righteous guy or almost as flawed as cartman so it was funny to see that too.  The covidians will like the shellfish joke.  40 years of covid…sounds about right.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> I don't have to explain the dead people in AZ.  The topic was how divisive public health has become.  It started with political decisions in NY/NJ and has continued along party lines across the country.  Your U9 tantrum just proves my point.


No, it started with people turning hard decisions for which there was no perfect, or even known, answer into a political hit that all of you anti-vax and mask douchebags have used time and again as your only excuse to intentionally kill people.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Fresh hellscape?   Always the extremes from you.
> 
> We already have evidence from the Norway Christmas party that Omicron does not send vaccinated people to the hospital.  Last I checked, it was 90 infected, zero to hospital.  This is ought to be enough to rule out a “vaccine does nothing” argument, especially when you combine it with the lab results.
> 
> Now you have the normal scientific back and forth over quantifying the added benefit.
> 
> No hellscape at all.  They figured out that the Pfizer shot helps against omicron, and are busy establishing the error bars on that statement.  Most of us consider this a good thing.
> 
> Time to re-enter my morning “hellscape“ of tunes and a fresh cup of coffee.


Since I was looking at the neutralization efficacy data last night and then read the Phizer statement this AM its probably not even a back and forth sort of thing, just how you describe the same result.  Everybody is doing the same assay, sera dilutions to monitor neutralization activity against omicron infection of cells in a petri dish.  The data shows the that the main anti-S Abs that are induced to high circulating levels by either prior infection or vaxx do not neutralize against as well against omicron.  How big is the drop in efficacy? The scale of the drop varies between 7-40x but the N is low and the scatter is high.  Its still pretty preliminary stuff. The most clear result is that Omicron seems to evade the current monoclonal Ab treatments very effectively. 

On the other hand, the synergy of multiple immune priming to facilitate longer maintenance of elevated Ab titers seems to be holding up.  So infect + reinfect, infect + vaxx, vaxx + booster, all elevate Ab titers, even if the Abs that are elevated don't work as well against the S of omicron. 

So it the same thing just how its framed.  You could say "oh crap, the main Abs induced against alpha/delta don't bind as tightly".  Or you could say "Hey if you keep the level of those same Abs high enough they still work OK".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hellscape is a description of the social media war going on right. Now. The issue is not severity of disease. The issue is neutralization. On the one hand you have Pfizer (which has a dubious motive)…on the other groups of Israeli, Dutch and now Germans. The debate thus surrounds whether boosters are necessary (or perhaps people should wait if they’ll be forced to take the omicron booster which Pfizer despite our waiting still for the delta booster has said will be available in 100 days). The debate which is shaping up is whether a booster will really do anything (and thus sell more Pfizer) since a 2 shot dose is sufficient to eliminate the novelty risk in what is apparently a comparatively mild omicron. The debate is already getting heated in those circles because there’s a lot of money at stake (potentially 4 shots worth of it). Reading comprehension. That’s a critique which I’ve been assured by espola is not an ad because I am attacking the message and not your character (eg, another babbler).


You didn't challenge his reading comprehension once.  You're getting better.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hellscape is a description of the social media war going on right. Now. The issue is not severity of disease. The issue is neutralization. On the one hand you have Pfizer (which has a dubious motive)…on the other groups of Israeli, Dutch and now Germans. The debate thus surrounds whether boosters are necessary (or perhaps people should wait if they’ll be forced to take the omicron booster which Pfizer despite our waiting still for the delta booster has said will be available in 100 days). The debate which is shaping up is whether a booster will really do anything (and thus sell more Pfizer) since a 2 shot dose is sufficient to eliminate the novelty risk in what is apparently a comparatively mild omicron. The debate is already getting heated in those circles because there’s a lot of money at stake (potentially 4 shots worth of it). Reading comprehension. That’s a critique which I’ve been assured by espola is not an ad because I am attacking the message and not your character (eg, another babbler).


I fail to see how anything on social media qualifies as a “hellscape”.

Hellscape ought to refer to real world catastrophes.   The eastern front in world war two was a hellscape, for example.   Egghead wannabes arguing on twitter?  That’s a tempest in a teapot, not a hellscape.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> No, it started with people turning hard decisions for which there was no perfect, or even known, answer into a political hit that all of you anti-vax and mask douchebags have used time and again as your only excuse to intentionally kill people.


How am i anti vax and anti  mask?  Or is that the royal you that you are referring to?  What hard decisions?  Like sending vulnerable  people back into facilities that house vulnerable people?  It's pandemic 101.  Oh that's right, there were other facilities available that could have housed them.  They were being provided by the orangy federal government.  Politics trumped public health.  Has nothing to do with anti vax, anti mask and everything to do with political idiots.  Public health has become divisivie due to politics. You unfortnately are blinded by partisan headlights.  Add to that your minimal understanding of publich health and medicine.  Perfect setting for your U9 tantrums.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> You didn't challenge his reading comprehension once.  You're getting better.


It’s in the second to last sentence.  

Reading grace’s posts is such a hellscape.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You didn't challenge his reading comprehension once.  You're getting better.


Just attempting to move the football a bit, remember, laces out.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> It’s in the second to last sentence.
> 
> Reading grace’s posts is such a hellscape.


I stand corrected.  My weak excuses are that I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and I was rushing to catch up on my wake-up reading because I had to pee.

I worked on communication radios and intercoms in my time in the Navy.  I learned that sometimes the fault that caused a failure to comprehend a  message was with the receiver, and sometimes with the sender.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> You're babbling.


Babble I will, about the TRUTH.

Hey Adam Espola Schiff, when you're confronted with the TRUTH
you sidestep and proceed with more Lies.
Lucky for you that the Juicy Smollet Bathhouse Trial isn't on National 
display via the Criminal News Network as the public would get to 
witness real time how individuals such as YOU operate.
Tell the Forum some lies about your sordid past Adam Espola Schiff.
Both of You have the same issues with a Media suppressed lurid history.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Babble I will, about the TRUTH.
> 
> Hey Adam Espola Schiff, when you're confronted with the TRUTH
> you sidestep and proceed with more Lies.
> Lucky for you that the Juicy Smollet Bathhouse Trial isn't on National
> display via the Criminal News Network as the public would get to
> witness real time how individuals such as YOU operate.
> Tell the Forum some lies about your sordid past Adam Espola Schiff.
> Both of You have the same issues with a Media suppressed lurid history.


Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery, but it appears you have a long way to go.

Perhaps you can answer a question for me -- how many sockpuppet accounts does 4nos have?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I fail to see how anything on social media qualifies as a “hellscape”.
> 
> Hellscape ought to refer to real world catastrophes.   The eastern front in world war two was a hellscape, for example.   Egghead wannabes arguing on twitter?  That’s a tempest in a teapot, not a hellscape.


From MPOV one of the more interesting exchanges in our little klatch.  One thing is that just during the course of this pandemic a newer generation of researchers is using forums little twitter to post first views of near real time data concerning covid.  The main thing is that its even a faster way to disseminate data than preprint servers.  But the other thing is that they are doing so to counter active misrepresentation of their data in the infodemic.  They are increasingly saying hey if its a fight we got to fight.  Which I admire.  But it feeds right into it as well.  In what I looked at last night could I pull a post off, say, Florian Krammer's feed and set it up against a line in Phizer's press release and "two sets of experts, two sides, so believe whatever".  Sure.  It would be complete bullshit but easy to do.  Of course I could just as easily set up metaphor against against metaphor and have a guy who looks like my ex-Hell's Angels biker uncle doing target practice with his 0.45 magnum long barrel.  Empty milk jugs, one wrapped in diapers.  Blows the first one water spraying everywhere.  He says "that's a  big wet covid sneeze."  they he blows the wrapped one says "Mama says cover you mouth.  Wear your fucking mask".  That would be more fun actually but pushes buttons either way.

Virtual hellscape isn't real world hellscape yet, at least for us priveledged western countries.  The citizens of someplace like Ukraine for example might have something to say about how actively manipulated online distortion campaigns can get real, real fast.  But like I've said, consider two different maps posted on election night as the "real" thing.   Simple extension of what is happening right now.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I fail to see how anything on social media qualifies as a “hellscape”.
> 
> Hellscape ought to refer to real world catastrophes.   The eastern front in world war two was a hellscape, for example.   Egghead wannabes arguing on twitter?  That’s a tempest in a teapot, not a hellscape.


Hellscapes are in the eye of the beholder.  Twitter most assuredly is a hellscape, at least as far as social media sites go.  This subforum of the soccer forum comes pretty close to one too (minus EOTL its more of a purgatory).  Time to brush up on some Milton.



dad4 said:


> It’s in the second to last sentence.
> 
> Reading grace’s posts is such a hellscape.


I like this.  And you have the assurance from espola that since it's criticizing the post and not the speaker's character, it most assuredly is not an ad hominem.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> From MPOV one of the more interesting exchanges in our little klatch.  One thing is that just during the course of this pandemic a newer generation of researchers is using forums little twitter to post first views of near real time data concerning covid.  The main thing is that its even a faster way to disseminate data than preprint servers.  But the other thing is that they are doing so to counter active misrepresentation of their data in the infodemic.  They are increasingly saying hey if its a fight we got to fight.  Which I admire.  But it feeds right into it as well.  In what I looked at last night could I pull a post off, say, Florian Krammer's feed and set it up against a line in Phizer's press release and "two sets of experts, two sides, so believe whatever".  Sure.  It would be complete bullshit but easy to do.  Of course I could just as easily set up metaphor against against metaphor and have a guy who looks like my ex-Hell's Angels biker uncle doing target practice with his 0.45 magnum long barrel.  Empty milk jugs, one wrapped in diapers.  Blows the first one water spraying everywhere.  He says "that's a  big wet covid sneeze."  they he blows the wrapped one says "Mama says cover you mouth.  Wear your fucking mask".  That would be more fun actually but pushes buttons either way.
> 
> Virtual hellscape isn't real world hellscape yet, at least for us priveledged western countries.  The citizens of someplace like Ukraine for example might have something to say about how actively manipulated online distortion campaigns can get real, real fast.  But like I've said, consider two different maps posted on election night as the "real" thing.   Simple extension of what is happening right now.


This is a very reasoned post.  I like it a lot.  The one thing, though, you are neglecting is there's a lot of money riding on the answer to the question.   On the line are whether governments should keep pushing the 3rd booster, and an omicron booster as well (the sunk costs to which are rapidly going to begin to mount).  4 shots for every person are now on the table, and quite a big pot of money.  For reference, again, see Squid Games, which I am convinced rather than a socialist anti-capitalist allegory, is really a big pharma one.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> How am i anti vax and anti  mask?  Or is that the royal you that you are referring to?  What hard decisions?  Like sending vulnerable  people back into facilities that house vulnerable people?  It's pandemic 101.  Oh that's right, there were other facilities available that could have housed them.  They were being provided by the orangy federal government.  Politics trumped public health.  Has nothing to do with anti vax, anti mask and everything to do with political idiots.  Public health has become divisivie due to politics. You unfortnately are blinded by partisan headlights.  Add to that your minimal understanding of publich health and medicine.  Perfect setting for your U9 tantrums.


When the pandemic hit NY, there was little to no knowledge about how impacted hospitals would become or how life threatening Covid was to any specific categories of persons.  Within a week, NYC went from 20 to 500 people dying of Covid daily, and 1000 the following week. There was no telling at the time how bad it was going to get and it wasn't clear whether sending nursing home patients who did not need to be in the hospital anymore back to nursing homes where they might still spread it, or leave them in potentially overwhelmed hospitals where they might also spread it. Was it the wrong decision in retrospect?  Yes, of course it was.  Did they overestimate the ability of nursing homes to prevent internal spread among their residents?  Yes.  Did they end up being overly concerned about the risk to children and other healthy groups?  Also yes. Was this decision "politicizing healthcare".  Of course not. 

Honestly, it's pretty crazy that even a feeble-minded person like yourself would assert that others are politicizing healthcare in the very same sentence in which you're claiming that it all started in NY and NJ.  No, it didn't start with NY and NJ.  Cuomo sending nursing home residents was not "politicizing" healthcare.  "Politicizing healthcare" started when you and your other anti-mask/vax friends subsequently used a decision that ended up being the wrong one as your excuse over the next two years to support "I can believe whatever I want because freedom" policies and ignore (and even mock) the guidance of virtually every single reputable medical and healthcare organization in the U.S. And all of this bs behavior has led to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.  So, yes, AZ's shining example of complete and utter stupidity needs discussion far more than NY/NJ, since states like AZ have no fucking excuse to have so many dead bodies and keep making the same stupid decisions, unlike NY. You're just labeling any fact you don't like as "politics" and then ignoring it because that's what your weak mind has learned to do from Fox and Newsmax.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> When the pandemic hit NY, there was little to no knowledge about how impacted hospitals would become or how life threatening Covid was to any specific categories of persons.  Within a week, NYC went from 20 to 500 people dying of Covid daily, and 1000 the following week. There was no telling at the time how bad it was going to get and it wasn't clear whether sending nursing home patients who did not need to be in the hospital anymore back to nursing homes where they might still spread it, or leave them in potentially overwhelmed hospitals where they might also spread it. Was it the wrong decision in retrospect?  Yes, of course it was.  Did they overestimate the ability of nursing homes to prevent internal spread among their residents?  Yes.  Did they end up being overly concerned about the risk to children and other healthy groups?  Also yes. Was this decision "politicizing healthcare".  Of course not.
> 
> Honestly, it's pretty crazy that even a feeble-minded person like yourself would assert that others are politicizing healthcare in the very same sentence in which you're claiming that it all started in NY and NJ.  No, it didn't start with NY and NJ.  Cuomo sending nursing home residents was not "politicizing" healthcare.  "Politicizing healthcare" started when you and your other anti-mask/vax friends subsequently used a decision that ended up being the wrong one as your excuse over the next two years to support "I can believe whatever I want because freedom" policies and ignore (and even mock) the guidance of virtually every single reputable medical and healthcare organization in the U.S. And all of this bs behavior has led to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.  So, yes, AZ's shining example of complete and utter stupidity needs discussion far more than NY/NJ, since states like AZ have no fucking excuse to have so many dead bodies and keep making the same stupid decisions, unlike NY. You're just labeling any fact you don't like as "politics" and then ignoring it because that's what your weak mind has learned to do from Fox and Newsmax.


Yes , we understand . When a Covid death happens in a blue state it’s because that said Governor was failed by the residents of that state . when it happens in a red state it’s because the Governor failed 

simply put , Biden can’t fail, he can only be failed


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> When the pandemic hit NY, there was little to no knowledge about how impacted hospitals would become or how life threatening Covid was to any specific categories of persons.  Within a week, NYC went from 20 to 500 people dying of Covid daily, and 1000 the following week. There was no telling at the time how bad it was going to get and it wasn't clear whether sending nursing home patients who did not need to be in the hospital anymore back to nursing homes where they might still spread it, or leave them in potentially overwhelmed hospitals where they might also spread it. Was it the wrong decision in retrospect?  Yes, of course it was.  Did they overestimate the ability of nursing homes to prevent internal spread among their residents?  Yes.  Did they end up being overly concerned about the risk to children and other healthy groups?  Also yes. Was this decision "politicizing healthcare".  Of course not.
> 
> Honestly, it's pretty crazy that even a feeble-minded person like yourself would assert that others are politicizing healthcare in the very same sentence in which you're claiming that it all started in NY and NJ.  No, it didn't start with NY and NJ.  Cuomo sending nursing home residents was not "politicizing" healthcare.  "Politicizing healthcare" started when you and your other anti-mask/vax friends subsequently used a decision that ended up being the wrong one as your excuse over the next two years to support "I can believe whatever I want because freedom" policies and ignore (and even mock) the guidance of virtually every single reputable medical and healthcare organization in the U.S. And all of this bs behavior has led to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.  So, yes, AZ's shining example of complete and utter stupidity needs discussion far more than NY/NJ, since states like AZ have no fucking excuse to have so many dead bodies and keep making the same stupid decisions, unlike NY. You're just labeling any fact you don't like as "politics" and then ignoring it because that's what your weak mind has learned to do from Fox and Newsmax.


You aren’t seriously defending the decision to return patients to nursing homes? 

Yes, they were in crisis mode.  But they had no reason to believe the policy would work.  Your first guess is that returning patients to nursing homes would just create new patients, further overwhelming hospitals.   Even when judged by the data available at the time, it was still a horrible decision.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> Yes , we understand . When a Covid death happens in a blue state it’s because that said Governor was failed by the residents of that state . when it happens in a red state it’s because the Governor failed
> 
> simply put , Biden can’t fail, he can only be failed


I see how you get that from a post that specifically states that NY made the wrong decision at the inception of the pandemic. What is AZ's excuse for killing so many people?  I mean, it's known about horse paste for months.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> This is a very reasoned post.  I like it a lot.  The one thing, though, you are neglecting is there's a lot of money riding on the answer to the question.   On the line are whether governments should keep pushing the 3rd booster, and an omicron booster as well (the sunk costs to which are rapidly going to begin to mount).  4 shots for every person are now on the table, and quite a big pot of money.  For reference, again, see Squid Games, which I am convinced rather than a socialist anti-capitalist allegory, is really a big pharma one.


I could just as easily say that you choose to accentuate the money, power, dark side of human nature it's all a conspiracy so a pick a side stuff.  But it's all good.  Helpful in a way actually. YMMV


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> I see how you get that from a post that specifically states that NY made the wrong decision at the inception of the pandemic. What is AZ's excuse for killing so many people?  I mean, it's known about horse paste for months.


Have you seen the Biden Covid Death Tracker?


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> You aren’t seriously defending the decision to return patients to nursing homes?
> 
> Yes, they were in crisis mode.  But they had no reason to believe the policy would work.  Your first guess is that returning patients to nursing homes would just create new patients, further overwhelming hospitals.   Even when judged by the data available at the time, it was still a horrible decision.


I was pretty clear that it was the wrong decision. But it wasn't a decision "politicizing healthcare".  The only "politicizing healthcare" here is being done by those who keep pointing to that poor decision as an excuse to completely ignore all of the things that mitigate spread and reduce deaths.


----------



## Brav520

He lied , tried to cover it up, wrote a book about his success , and won an Emmy

people were talking that he should be the dem nominee for president , given how well he did on Covid 

but yeah , it hasn’t been polticized


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I could just as easily say that you choose to accentuate the money, power, dark side of human nature it's all a conspiracy so a pick a side stuff.  But it's all good.  Helpful in a way actually. YMMV


It's my econ training.  Incentives.

A big failure of utopian schemes (whether Marxism or zero covid) is they make policy around how they wish people were, instead of what they are.


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> I was pretty clear that it was the wrong decision. But it wasn't a decision "politicizing healthcare".  The only "politicizing healthcare" here is being done by those who keep pointing to that poor decision as an excuse to completely ignore all of the things that mitigate spread and reduce deaths.


At a minimum, the Levine appointment was a clear example of politicizing healthcare.  

By the time of the appointment, it was clear that the decision to return patients to nursing homes resulted in added cases and deaths.  If you were just looking for the most qualified person, there is no way you’d choose someone with that on their resume.  You’d look to places like WA and CA that seemed on top of it.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> When the pandemic hit NY, there was little to no knowledge about how impacted hospitals would become or how life threatening Covid was to any specific categories of persons.  Within a week, NYC went from 20 to 500 people dying of Covid daily, and 1000 the following week. There was no telling at the time how bad it was going to get and it wasn't clear whether sending nursing home patients who did not need to be in the hospital anymore back to nursing homes where they might still spread it, or leave them in potentially overwhelmed hospitals where they might also spread it. Was it the wrong decision in retrospect?  Yes, of course it was.  Did they overestimate the ability of nursing homes to prevent internal spread among their residents?  Yes.  Did they end up being overly concerned about the risk to children and other healthy groups?  Also yes. Was this decision "politicizing healthcare".  Of course not.
> 
> Honestly, it's pretty crazy that even a feeble-minded person like yourself would assert that others are politicizing healthcare in the very same sentence in which you're claiming that it all started in NY and NJ.  No, it didn't start with NY and NJ.  Cuomo sending nursing home residents was not "politicizing" healthcare.  "Politicizing healthcare" started when you and your other anti-mask/vax friends subsequently used a decision that ended up being the wrong one as your excuse over the next two years to support "I can believe whatever I want because freedom" policies and ignore (and even mock) the guidance of virtually every single reputable medical and healthcare organization in the U.S. And all of this bs behavior has led to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.  So, yes, AZ's shining example of complete and utter stupidity needs discussion far more than NY/NJ, since states like AZ have no fucking excuse to have so many dead bodies and keep making the same stupid decisions, unlike NY. You're just labeling any fact you don't like as "politics" and then ignoring it because that's what your weak mind has learned to do from Fox and Newsmax.


You are beyond clueless.  All of these words clearly prove that.  You have a basic misunderstanding of disease protocols, you follow some silly political playbook, and you kneel at the pew of your ideology.

You are out of your mind If you think for one second that experts in the field (not ones why play one on TV) didn't recommend basic protocols for novel  infections disease/outbreaks.  Continue to froth at the mouth with meaningless words.  You are good for entertainment purposes.  Now please turn to page 8, paragraph 2, bullet #3 and type out your response.   As it turns out, Cuomo is in fact a dirt bag.  His aspirations were clearly political.  He is a perverted, egotistical man

I know I'm not going to change your small, narrow mind.  But it is amusing how easily disturbed and protective you become.  Science and medicine were trumped by politics.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Abortion is legal on request up to 12 weeks development in all countries except Poland, Vatican City, and a handful of mini-states.  Even in those cases, nearby borders allow women to effectively have full choice in the matter.


Pretty good summary as to the reasoning behind the future ruling by the Supreme Court on a question revolving around states rights and a question of 15wks vs 20 wks on termination of pregnancies. Guess you agree given your comment above… now that wasn’t divisive at all, right?


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> You are beyond clueless.  All of these words clearly prove that.  You have a basic misunderstanding of disease protocols, you follow some silly political playbook, and you kneel at the pew of your ideology.
> 
> You are out of your mind If you think for one second that experts in the field (not ones why play one on TV) didn't recommend basic protocols for novel  infections disease/outbreaks.  Continue to froth at the mouth with meaningless words.  You are good for entertainment purposes.  Now please turn to page 8, paragraph 2, bullet #3 and type out your response.   As it turns out, Cuomo is in fact a dirt bag.  His aspirations were clearly political.  He is a perverted, egotistical man
> 
> I know I'm not going to change your small, narrow mind.  But it is amusing how easily disturbed and protective you become.  Science and medicine were trumped by politics.


Yes, states like AZ, FL and TX have it figured out.  Definitely no clearly political decisions by perverted egotistical governors in those states, especially their attempted bans on hospitals and nursing homes requiring that their staff get vaccinated.  No politics there.  Clearly they know better than the hundreds of front line hospitals that are requiring that their staff get vaccinated, right?

The fact that you keep pointing to a bad decision that everyone agrees was bad to avoid addressing how the governors of pretty much every southern state continue ignoring virtually every disease protocol in existence just shows the level of your desperation. No one believes it was a good decision, yet here you are trying to pretend that I do, because it's the only way to avoid talking about literally every single stupid and inexcusable decision made by each of the states with by far the highest death rates over the last year and a half.  Carry on with the anti-vax/mask agenda, which is turning out to be very lucrative for the mortuary business. So weird that none of today's batch of Herman Cain Award winners were nursing home residents, however.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbqk6e


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbvj27


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbu4e9


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rboic7


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbx7sb
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbk98e/woman_succumbs_to_covid_before_getting_a_chance/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbwkrt/this_antivaxxer_lost_her_sister_and_then_her/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbw8v1/bill_was_a_marine_bill_made_his_own_choices/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbqxqu/scottish_sportsman_accepts_his_award/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rbi3np/he_loved_beer_but_wasnt_sold_on_the_vaccine/


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> At a minimum, the Levine appointment was a clear example of politicizing healthcare.
> 
> By the time of the appointment, it was clear that the decision to return patients to nursing homes resulted in added cases and deaths.  If you were just looking for the most qualified person, there is no way you’d choose someone with that on their resume.  You’d look to places like WA and CA that seemed on top of it.


What the fuck are you talking about?  NY didn't appoint them.  I take it you're just going to point to whatever the fuck thing as evidence of "politicizing healthcare" so that you can then ignore whatever you want from health experts, since something was politicized so therefore everything is?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> I was pretty clear that it was the wrong decision. But it wasn't a decision "politicizing healthcare".  The only "politicizing healthcare" here is being done by those who keep pointing to that poor decision as an excuse to completely ignore all of the things that mitigate spread and reduce deaths.


Ex-fucking-actly! That is a pattern they adhere to on many subjects.


----------



## crush

*Husker Du, Golden Gate & Espola:  The Three Headed Monster Is Out In Force Today. *


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> At a minimum, the Levine appointment was a clear example of politicizing healthcare.
> 
> By the time of the appointment, it was clear that the decision to return patients to nursing homes resulted in added cases and deaths.  If you were just looking for the most qualified person, there is no way you’d choose someone with that on their resume.  You’d look to places like WA and CA that seemed on top of it.


I do like how you assume that the federal government appointing a transgender person is politicizing healthcare.  I'm sure it wouldn't be "political" of a president to appoint a bank CEO as secretary of treasury? Or an oil industry lobbyist as secretary of the interior.  Or a rich business owner as secretary of labor, followed by an employment defense attorney who also happens to be the brother of your favorite supreme court justice?  Or the wife of a senator whose help you need as secretary of transportation followed by a supporter of U.S. sponsored torture with no experience whatsoever (so qualified).  Or a former surgeon as secretary of housing and urban development (hey, at least he was qualified at picking out really expensive office furniture on the taxpayers' dime)?  Or a never employed really, really rich person as secretary of education?  Or a complete moron as secretary of energy, who tries to hide his complete and utter stupidity and incompetence by wearing glasses?  Definitely no politics there.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> It's my econ training.  Incentives.
> 
> A big failure of utopian schemes (whether Marxism or zero covid) is they make policy around how they wish people were, instead of what they are.


Wait.  You're a lawyer, an equestrian, a former youth referee AND an economist!?!


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> He lied , tried to cover it up, wrote a book about his success , and won an Emmy
> 
> people were talking that he should be the dem nominee for president , given how well he did on Covid
> 
> but yeah , it hasn’t been polticized


I guess it's progress that you aren't claiming that Hillary's emails are killing everyone in AZ, TX and FL.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> *Husker Du, Golden Gate & Espola:  The Three Headed Monster Is Out In Force Today. *


More like......


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?  NY didn't appoint them.  I take it you're just going to point to whatever the fuck thing as evidence of "politicizing healthcare" so that you can then ignore whatever you want from health experts, since something was politicized so therefore everything is?


Levine required Pennsylvania nursing homes to accept covid positive patients who were discharged from hospital.









						Levine: Bringing nursing home COVID patients back from hospital was right move
					

State officials believe they did the right thing by requiring nursing homes across Pennsylvania to bring residents...



					www.timesonline.com
				




The decision led to increased deaths at PA nursing homes.  Later, Biden appointed them, ignoring the obvious lapse in judgement.

The simplest explanation for the appointment is identity politics.  You’d really have to jump through some hoops to make a case that Levine was the best qualified candidate overall.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> You are beyond clueless.  All of these words clearly prove that.  You have a basic misunderstanding of disease protocols, you follow some silly political playbook, and you kneel at the pew of your ideology.
> 
> You are out of your mind If you think for one second that experts in the field (not ones why play one on TV) didn't recommend basic protocols for novel  infections disease/outbreaks.  Continue to froth at the mouth with meaningless words.  You are good for entertainment purposes.  Now please turn to page 8, paragraph 2, bullet #3 and type out your response.   As it turns out, Cuomo is in fact a dirt bag.  His aspirations were clearly political.  He is a perverted, egotistical man
> 
> I know I'm not going to change your small, narrow mind.  But it is amusing how easily disturbed and protective you become.  Science and medicine were trumped by politics.


Do you think he actually believes anyone reads his rants? He just bent due to the downfall of the Cuomo brothers. His old alias, EOTL, was the biggest Cuomo nuthugger.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you think he actually believes anyone reads his rants? He just bent due to the downfall of the Cuomo brothers. His old alias, EOTL, was the biggest Cuomo nuthugger.


Our fearsome health leaders......


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> I do like how you assume that the federal government appointing a transgender person is politicizing healthcare.


Can you defend the Levine appointment without referring to their gender status?

No one who oversaw a decision to return covid patients to nursing homes deserved a federal appointment to a health care role.  Levine should have been ruled out for the same reason that Biden didn’t appoint the top health official from NY or NJ.

( The rest of your diatribe is irrelevant.  I’m opposed to Trump, and therefore feel no obligation to defend his appointments. )


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> At a minimum, the Levine appointment was a clear example of politicizing healthcare.
> 
> By the time of the appointment, it was clear that the decision to return patients to nursing homes resulted in added cases and deaths.  If you were just looking for the most qualified person, there is no way you’d choose someone with that on their resume.  You’d look to places like WA and CA that seemed on top of it.


I know how much you hate Levine, so I figured you'd like this meme from the FB feed of a dead anti-vaxxer/masker.  For context, I've also included a photo of his super witty "big balls" t-shirt along with his final texts before he got what he deserved.  It turns out that he had no stones whatsoever. I wonder if he was a nursing home resident?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you think he actually believes anyone reads his rants? He just bent due to the downfall of the Cuomo brothers. His old alias, EOTL, was the biggest Cuomo nuthugger.


Is that your "go to" homophobic dig?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Our fearsome health leaders......
> 
> View attachment 12306


How's the job search?  College recruiting?


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> I guess it's progress that you aren't claiming that Hillary's emails are killing everyone in AZ, TX and FL.


well you never gave me the chance, I would have gotten there if you were patient .


----------



## kickingandscreaming

GoldenGate said:


> Is that your "go to" homophobic dig?


Educate yourself, boomer. See 2. below.

What is nuthugger?

1. Shorts or Pants that are really tight on men and squeeze their junk
2.people who support someone blindly regardless of facts


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?  NY didn't appoint them.  I take it you're just going to point to whatever the fuck thing as evidence of "politicizing healthcare" so that you can then ignore whatever you want from health experts, since something was politicized so therefore everything is?


politicizing public health not healthcare.  Go git some learnings and lern the difference tween the 2. ...You can't even get your thoughts straight.  Feel free to throw more reddit stuff as a response - super clever and demonstrates clear intellectual frailty.  Nut huggin doesn't increase expertise.


----------



## Grace T.

Don't worry, y'all.  Everything is alright!









						'It's just crazy': 12 major cities hit all-time homicide records
					

At least 12 major U.S. cities have broken annual homicide records in 2021 -- and there's still three weeks to go in the year.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hellscapes are in the eye of the beholder.  Twitter most assuredly is a hellscape, at least as far as social media sites go.  This subforum of the soccer forum comes pretty close to one too (minus EOTL its more of a purgatory).  Time to brush up on some Milton.
> 
> 
> 
> I like this.  And you have the assurance from espola that since it's criticizing the post and not the speaker's character, it most assuredly is not an ad hominem.


I see you still don't get it.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> politicizing public health not healthcare.  Go git some learnings and lern the difference tween the 2. ...You can't even get your thoughts straight.  Feel free to throw more reddit stuff as a response - super clever and demonstrates clear intellectual frailty.  Nut huggin doesn't increase expertise.


You seem to think that anything you don't like is "politicizing healthcare".  You know what actually isn't healthcare, but is just politics?  Banning hospitals from requiring that their staff get vaccinated. Banning schools from requiring face coverings.  Banning schools from requiring that students have any vaccinations.  Banning abortions. Telling constituents that horse paste is all you need. Pastors promoting anti-vax/mask bs and telling their sheep that god will save them. 

I'm happy to show you more memes in the FB feeds of dead people, but they're just the same racist, misognynistic anti-max/vax stuff you get in yours every day.


----------



## Grace T.

Does it really surprise anyone that teachers like working from home?









						Schools Are Closing Classrooms on Fridays. Parents Are Furious. (Published 2021)
					

Desperate to keep teachers, some districts have turned to remote teaching for one day a week — and sometimes more. Families have been left to find child care.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Pretty good summary as to the reasoning behind the future ruling by the Supreme Court on a question revolving around states rights and a question of 15wks vs 20 wks on termination of pregnancies. Guess you agree given your comment above… now that wasn’t divisive at all, right?


I already stated my position -- safe, legal, rare, and none of your business.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I see you still don't get it.


oh I do: "Criticism of anything directed at me (and people that I like) is an ad hominem....criticism that's directed at you is well-reasoned, justifiable critique of your argument".

It's really not that hard.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Wait.  You're a lawyer, an equestrian, a former youth referee AND an economist!?!


No, but she plays one on the internet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Don't worry, y'all.  Everything is alright!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'It's just crazy': 12 major cities hit all-time homicide records
> 
> 
> At least 12 major U.S. cities have broken annual homicide records in 2021 -- and there's still three weeks to go in the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


You mean that they haven't gotten around to using social workers to replace the police?

Seriously, though, Camden NJ had/has a Community/Police model that the community supports. It passes the smell test as well. Some of the stuff that is being thrown out there has no chance of improving things.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> oh I do: "Criticism of anything directed at me (and people that I like) is an ad hominem....criticism that's directed at you is well-reasoned, justifiable critique of your argument".
> 
> It's really not that hard.


It's not hard, and that's not it.  Have we settled whether you were homeschooled or not?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> You mean that they haven't gotten around to using social workers to replace the police?
> 
> Seriously, though, Camden NJ had/has a Community/Police model that the community supports. It passes the smell test as well. Some of the stuff that is being thrown out there has no chance of improving things.


A few years ago I was at a work conference that I took kiddo along to in Philadelphia.  During a break, I took him to visit the battleship New Jersey.  The ferry stopped running for some reason, and we wound up having to look for a cab (my phone had died and so no uber).  seriously felt safer walking in Camden than I do in Los Angeles these days.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's not hard, and that's not it.  Have we settled whether you were homeschooled or not?


It's not, yes it is, and we all know it.

And I guess comments about education now are not ad hominems either....noted!

p.s. yes, I'm going to beat you over the head with this hammer for quite some time to come.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> No, but she plays one on the internet.


Technically, I don't think she's ever actually practiced law.  I'm pretty sure the only paying job she has every held is the one as a youth referee.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's not, yes it is, and we all know it.
> 
> And I guess comments about education now are not ad hominems either....noted!
> 
> p.s. yes, I'm going to beat you over the head with this hammer for quite some time to come.


It's not a comment, it's a question.  I'm just trying to understand you better.


----------



## crush

Hundreds of Los Angeles school employees have been fired for not complying with a district vaccine requirement, the Los Angeles Unified School District said.

As of Tuesday, 496 LAUSD employees were terminated but may be eligible to get their jobs back if they chose to get vaccinated against COVID-19.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's not a comment, it's a question.  I'm just trying to understand you better.



Hahahhahahahahahaha!  That's funny.  You are on fire man!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Interesting









						Penn Researchers Use Lettuce To Develop Chewing Gum That Could Slow COVID Transmission
					

It might look like ordinary lettuce, but it could one day help fight COVID-19.




					philadelphia.cbslocal.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hahahhahahahahahaha!  That's funny.  You are on fire man!


And so far you are avoiding answering the question.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And so far you are avoiding answering the question.


Hey it's the Two Step again!  What music is playing this time?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penn Researchers Use Lettuce To Develop Chewing Gum That Could Slow COVID Transmission
> 
> 
> It might look like ordinary lettuce, but it could one day help fight COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> philadelphia.cbslocal.com


Hippie Lettuce?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You seem to think that anything you don't like is "politicizing healthcare".  You know what actually isn't healthcare, but is just politics?  Banning hospitals from requiring that their staff get vaccinated. Banning schools from requiring face coverings.  Banning schools from requiring that students have any vaccinations.  Banning abortions. Telling constituents that horse paste is all you need. Pastors promoting anti-vax/mask bs and telling their sheep that god will save them.
> 
> I'm happy to show you more memes in the FB feeds of dead people, but they're just the same racist, misognynistic anti-max/vax stuff you get in yours every day.


Quit crossing up your wires, you are so over the place and have little to grasp of  science and health.  I'm glad you are happy with your snapface feed that makes fun of dead people.  Wipe your chin from time to time.

Exhibit courage and quit hiding behind kids.  If you have a child and want to vaccinate them, go ahead, your choice.  Many won't .  If you happen to be near one those unmasked, un vaccinated petri dishes, mask up, you'll be fine.  Who's banning abortions?  What's wrong with administering a drug with one of the best safety profiles ever?  Why do you hate?  Don't you live in the most bubble wrapped zip code(s) in the country.  As a famous QB likes to say - Relaaax.


----------



## crush

Dr. F has truly lost his marbles.  Basically he is saying today that everyone needs to get vaccinated without their free will.  He said he was hoping people would jabbed up on their own but If their not going to obey, he and his crew will have to do ther things" that are not popular to get the anti-Vaxxers jabbed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> And so far you are avoiding answering the question.


I would think after over 10 years dealing with nutters in these forums you would know they aren’t reliable, avoid answering direct questions and don’t do the accountability thing.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> I would think after over 10 years dealing with nutters in these forums you would know they aren’t reliable, avoid answering direct questions and don’t do the accountability thing.


I'm just trying to ferret out the source of Grace's unique viewpoint on evolution, especially with respect to the evolution of viruses and other simple organisms.  Since that is one of the topics dismissed or treated lightly in some home-schooling curricula, I wondered at the possibility.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Dr. F has truly lost his marbles.  Basically he is saying today that everyone needs to get vaccinated without their free will.  He said he was hoping people would jabbed up on their own but If their not going to obey, he and his crew will have to do ther things" that are not popular to get the anti-Vaxxers jabbed.



As Christmas approaches, Santa is making a list and checking it twice. He’s also ready to deliver presents around the world after receiving his COVID-19 booster shot, according to Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's leading infectious disease expert. 

“Santa already has great innate immunity," Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told USA TODAY. "This year he is even more protected because he has been fully vaccinated and boosted. Santa will be just fine and is good to go!”


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm just trying to ferret out the source of Grace's unique viewpoint on evolution, especially with respect to the evolution of viruses and other simple organisms.  Since that is one of the topics dismissed or treated lightly in some home-schooling curricula, I wondered at the possibility.


Nonsense.  A genuine concern for information is not part of your 2 step.

And if you were digging for actual information, you'd be digging futilely.  As I stated previously (there's that reading comprehension issue again), you went down the rabbit hole about something which: a) I didn't feel strongly about one way or another, b) didn't have a strong knowledge base and c) admitted I didn't have the chops to analyze....I was just passing on a curious stone I found from an "expert" (because you know we are all about experts here, apparently).  There's no unique viewpoint for you to find, because it's not one of the things that concerns me.  You should know by now what floats my boat is policy.


----------



## Brav520

Sanna Marin: Finland's PM sorry for clubbing after Covid contact
					

Sanna Marin went on a night out on Saturday, hours after her foreign minister had tested positive.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Sanna Marin: Finland's PM sorry for clubbing after Covid contact
> 
> 
> Sanna Marin went on a night out on Saturday, hours after her foreign minister had tested positive.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


in the uk Boris is knees deep in a scandal because his staff had a Christmas party during lockdowns and video emerged of them joking about it (joking they'd call it a "work meeting").  Presumably since it was at No.10, the PM knew about it and possibly attended.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> in the uk Boris is knees deep in a scandal because his staff had a Christmas party during lockdowns and video emerged of them joking about it (joking they'd call it a "work meeting").  Presumably since it was at No.10, the PM knew about it and possibly attended.


use the London Breed excuse, Boris was just “feeling the spirit”, in this instance the Christmas Spirit !


----------



## Brav520

I like how the Finland PM is out until 4am clubbing , that’s actually awesome


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> use the London Breed excuse, Boris was just “feeling the spirit”, in this instance the Christmas Spirit !


That only works if you are on the left.  If you are a con, pro restrictions, and break the rules, you have no friends (nor should you really....you goofed twice....once with siding with them on the COVID restrictions, and then for breaking your own restrictions).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Nonsense.  A genuine concern for information is not part of your 2 step.
> 
> And if you were digging for actual information, you'd be digging futilely.  As I stated previously (there's that reading comprehension issue again), you went down the rabbit hole about something which: a) I didn't feel strongly about one way or another, b) didn't have a strong knowledge base and c) admitted I didn't have the chops to analyze....I was just passing on a curious stone I found from an "expert" (because you know we are all about experts here, apparently).  There's no unique viewpoint for you to find, because it's not one of the things that concerns me.  You should know by now what floats my boat is policy.


“reading comprehension”.  Drink!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> “reading comprehension”.  Drink!


I'm all for that.  Salute! If you preach it requires a shot.  A "nonsense" or a "coocoo" from espola and you take sip.  Espola says something productive and useful instead of the two step, you got to chug.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Hippie Lettuce?


I'm just waiting for CA to mandate that everyone chew it when they can't socially distance. Mask and gum. You can take the gum out to eat and drink but need to put it back in your mouth when done swallowing. Of course, you know what will come next - suppositories. CA government figures there will be little resistance to that mandate since we have been figuratively taking it that way for some time. The tricky part will be enforcing the mandate. May need to go "Full Australia".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nonsense.  A genuine concern for information is not part of your 2 step.
> 
> And if you were digging for actual information, you'd be digging futilely.  As I stated previously (there's that reading comprehension issue again), you went down the rabbit hole about something which: a) I didn't feel strongly about one way or another, b) didn't have a strong knowledge base and c) admitted I didn't have the chops to analyze....I was just passing on a curious stone I found from an "expert" (because you know we are all about experts here, apparently).  There's no unique viewpoint for you to find, because it's not one of the things that concerns me.  You should know by now what floats my boat is policy.


And along the way you were misleading about the previous discussion, of which there was none -- at least not in this thread.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> “reading comprehension”.  Drink!


I wasn't going to bring it up since it has gotten to be like shooting fish in a barrel now.


----------



## Brav520

Teachers want a hybrid flex work program

In an effort to keep teachers from resigning, some U.S. public schools are going remote for a day a week — sometimes more. Some have closed with very little notice, leaving parents scrambling to find child care.









						Schools Are Closing Classrooms on Fridays. Parents Are Furious. (Published 2021)
					

Desperate to keep teachers, some districts have turned to remote teaching for one day a week — and sometimes more. Families have been left to find child care.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## espola

Senator (not Doctor) Ron Johnson of Wisconsin recommends gargling with Listerine to fight off covid.

Listerine says "LISTERINE Antiseptic is not intended to prevent or treat COVID-19 and should be used only as directed on the product label.  Although there are recent lab-based reports (in vitro studies) of some LISTERINE Mouthwashes having activity against enveloped viruses, including coronavirus, the available data is insufficient, and no evidence-based clinical conclusions can be drawn with regards to the anti-viral efficacy of LISTERINE Antiseptic mouthwash at this time."


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And along the way you were misleading about the previous discussion, of which there was none -- at least not in this thread.


Yes I did

misleading allegation from a covidian. That’s a drink!

note misleading attacks and assumes motivations and isn’t just a comment about a comment. Not an ad. Got it!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes I did
> 
> misleading allegation from a covidian. That’s a drink!
> 
> note misleading attacks and assumes motivations and isn’t just a comment about a comment. Not an ad. Got it!


What's a covidian?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery, but it appears you have a long way to go.
> 
> Perhaps you can answer a question for me -- how many sockpuppet accounts does 4nos have?


75 years of projection is a trait you've developed quite well.
Bringing up filthy habits you used 4 socks for as gratification
in the Navy is further indication of your sordid ingrained sickness.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> 75 years of projection is a trait you've developed quite well.
> Bringing up filthy habits you used 4 socks for as gratification
> in the Navy is further indication of your sordid ingrained sickness.


I had a buddy that was stuck on a ship for a very long time and when he got back from his tour, he was never the same.  Something happen to Espola and it;s not good.  Sic!!!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What's a covidian?


We’ve covered that too. Not following along huh?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We’ve covered that too. Not following along huh?


Another thing you made up and you assume everyone knows?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another thing you made up and you assume everyone knows?


I didn’t make it up anymore than I did Magoo or the two step. “You think too much of me mike.  I’m not that clever.”  

one of the minimum assumptions of a forum is that you’ll follow along if you want to participate and not ask questions intended to solicit a response that takes us down another rabbit hole (unless your true intention is to troll that is). If you need a tutor perhaps dad4 will be kind enough to offer seeing how you two agree so often. 

note this isn’t an ad because I am criticizing that your comments lose the thread rather than your character.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Teachers want a hybrid flex work program
> 
> In an effort to keep teachers from resigning, some U.S. public schools are going remote for a day a week — sometimes more. Some have closed with very little notice, leaving parents scrambling to find child care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools Are Closing Classrooms on Fridays. Parents Are Furious. (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Desperate to keep teachers, some districts have turned to remote teaching for one day a week — and sometimes more. Families have been left to find child care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Damn, what a mess. I was a bit surprised about Brevard County in FL. Then I looked up the specifics. They schedule extra days into the school year in case they need to miss a few due to hurricanes. With this hurricane season over, they added the days to Thanksgiving break. Oh, and they had a bunch of options for childcare during the "new" days off. Brevard Parks and Recreation stepped up.

***

The chair of the board also talked about the district getting ready for families who need childcare. The county is offering 11 different day camps families can take their kids to on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. ‘’That was all Brevard County Parks and Recreation,’’ Belford credited. ‘’They jumped on it and came to the rescue so we’re so appreciative of them.”

***

Evidently all days off in this article are not created equally. No "burnout" or teachers unions stating the teachers need to be safe and can't bear all the burden here to justify distance learning. It's great to see a community and its government agencies step up for its youth and their families. It's a shame it's not more common.









						Thanksgiving break starts early for Brevard County students
					

Thanksgiving break is starting early this year for tens of thousands of students.With early dismissal Friday, Brevard Public Schools students are off for the next ten days.




					www.clickorlando.com


----------



## dad4

Grace- If you want to play the drinking game, you have to guess the exact phrase the other person uses.

For example, I cant say "drink" every time you attack the person instead of making an argument.  But I can say "drink" whenever you say "reading comprehension", "preacher", or "Magoo".

Actually drinking for those events would be more than my liver can take.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm just waiting for CA to mandate that everyone chew it when they can't socially distance. Mask and gum. You can take the gum out to eat and drink but need to put it back in your mouth when done swallowing. Of course, you know what will come next - suppositories. CA government figures there will be little resistance to that mandate since we have been figuratively taking it that way for some time. The tricky part will be enforcing the mandate. May need to go "Full Australia".


It is probably best if you don't mention chewing gum and suppositories in the same chain of thought.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It is probably best if you don't mention chewing gum and suppositories in the same chain of thought.


Definitely wouldn't want them both in the same pocket.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Grace- If you want to play the drinking game, you have to guess the exact phrase the other person uses.
> 
> For example, I cant say "drink" every time you attack the person instead of making an argument.  But I can say "drink" whenever you say "reading comprehension", "preacher", or "Magoo".
> 
> Actually drinking for those events would be more than my liver can take.


speaking of liver , is anyone else getting the ad on this site of the very angry looking bald man with the caption “ signs of a fatty liver “


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace- If you want to play the drinking game, you have to guess the exact phrase the other person uses.
> 
> For example, I cant say "drink" every time you attack the person instead of making an argument.  But I can say "drink" whenever you say "reading comprehension", "preacher", or "Magoo".
> 
> Actually drinking for those events would be more than my liver can take.


Lightweight

the nonsense,, straw man, and, coocoos should be enough to put both of us under the table.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> speaking of liver , is anyone else getting the ad on this site of the very angry looking bald man with the caption “ signs of a fatty liver “


Pay to play bro is the best way to go at the forum.  Platinum  I can edit anytime I want and if I start a thread that goes sideways, I can delete the thread.  It sure beats all the ads.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Lightweight
> 
> the nonsense,, straw man, and, coocoos should be enough to put both of us under the table.


Let's not forget, "Super Ignore."


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Pay to play bro is the best way to go at the forum.  Platinum  I can edit anytime I want and if I start a thread that goes sideways, I can delete the thread.  It sure beats all the ads.


With Xmas around the corner , what a perfect gift, though I think my wife would tell me to f-off if I asked for that


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> With Xmas around the corner , what a perfect gift, though I think my wife would tell me to f-off if I asked for that


$15 bro and you can tell your wife no more ads to get you to buy shit.  I'm sure it's not just bald guys you see on them banner ads.  What else you seeing bro?  Be honest.  I never had bald men pop up on my pop up ads before, that's for damn sure......lol.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I didn’t make it up anymore than I did Magoo or the two step. “You think too much of me mike.  I’m not that clever.”
> 
> one of the minimum assumptions of a forum is that you’ll follow along if you want to participate and not ask questions intended to solicit a response that takes us down another rabbit hole (unless your true intention is to troll that is). If you need a tutor perhaps dad4 will be kind enough to offer seeing how you two agree so often.
> 
> note this isn’t an ad because I am criticizing that your comments lose the thread rather than your character.


What's a covidian?


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> $15 bro and you can tell your wife no more ads to get you to buy shit.  I'm sure it's not just bald guys you see on them banner ads.  What else you seeing bro?  Be honest?  I never had bald men pop up on my pop up ads before, that's for damn sure......lol.


well let’s see , Dicks, Botox , Tilly”s currently . Also, a very localized ad about Santa being at a mall close . So it really runs the gamete. On the plus side an ad popped up about a juice place very close to my house that I had no idea existed , so I visited it .

my wife soccer knowledge is pretty limited she is learning though! I had to explain to her at my u little Ds game what it meant when the parents kept saying “ play the through ball”.  But the ying/yang is good. For example , when my4 year old  son came off the field crying saying “ they no let me score” she was there for support

my wife has no idea I’m on the message board , and she would think it would be nuts I’m discussing youth soccer with randoms, imagine what she would think about me spending most of my time on a youth soccer forum talking Covid ?

$15 sounds like a deal!


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Grace- If you want to play the drinking game, you have to guess the exact phrase the other person uses.
> 
> For example, I cant say "drink" every time you attack the person instead of making an argument.  But I can say "drink" whenever you say "reading comprehension", "preacher", or "Magoo".
> 
> Actually drinking for those events would be more than my liver can take.


Because of common sense and medical suggestions I have cut back on my beer with lunch routine.  I had one beer over Thanksgiving at my daughter's place because she got me a special can offered by her non-profit as a fundraiser, and no wine or anything stronger over the last month.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> well let’s see , Dicks, Botox , Tilly”s currently . Also, a very localized ad about Santa being at a mall close . So it really runs the gamete. On the plus side an ad popped up about a juice place very close to my house they I had no idea existed , so I visited it .
> 
> my wife soccer knowledge is pretty limited she is learning though! I had to explain to her at my u little Ds game what it meant when the parents kept saying “ play the through ball”.  But the ying/yang is good. For example , when my4 year old came off the field crying saying “ they no let me score” she was there for support
> 
> my wife has no idea I’m on the message board , and she would think it would be nuts I’m discussing youth soccer with randoms, imagine what she would think about me spending most of my time on a youth soccer forum talking Covid ?
> 
> $15 sounds like a deal!


Excellent ads bro.  Pay the $15.  It also helps Dom pay the bills.  I would actually pay $15 a month to play with Husker, Dad, Espola and Golden Gate.  Espola has been here the longest.  He used to talk to me and try and help me navigate the pitfalls pafrents at times fall into.  I at first thought he cared about me but like so many in this arena, he turned on me quickly.  Is I'm still here 20 years from now, I give you for permission to bitch slap me.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Because of common sense and medical suggestions I have cut back on my beer with lunch routine.  I had one beer over Thanksgiving at my daughter's place because she got me a special can offered by her non-profit as a fundraiser, and no wine or anything stronger over the last month.


Excellent news and you should give crus credit for preaching no booze.  You can do it old man.  I'm rooting for you to give up all Spirits.  Booze is bad for someone like you....


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What's a covidian?


Funny. You missed your calling in life.  You could have been on stage saying:”you heard about covidians?  You seen this?  You heard about this?  What’s up with that?  Gee what a terrific audience…very much”.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Because of common sense and medical suggestions I have cut back on my beer with lunch routine.  I had one beer over Thanksgiving at my daughter's place because she got me a special can offered by her non-profit as a fundraiser, and no wine or anything stronger over the last month.


Otherwise I would be inspired to pick my word to be "covidian".


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Excellent ads bro.  Pay the $15.  It also helps Dom pay the bills.  I would actually pay $15 a month to play with Husker, Dad, Espola and Golden Gate.  Espola has been here the longest.  He used to talk to me and try and help me navigate the pitfalls pafrents at times fall into.  I at first thought he cared about me but like so many in this arena, he turned on me quickly.  Is I'm still here 20 years from now, I give you for permission to bitch slap me.


yeah, those server fees aren’t cheap


----------



## crush

Fauci Says Definition Of Fully Vaccinated Will Change
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci said he believes it's inevitable that the definition of fully vaccinated will change.




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

"A third shot boost."


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Fauci Says Definition Of Fully Vaccinated Will Change
> 
> 
> Dr. Anthony Fauci said he believes it's inevitable that the definition of fully vaccinated will change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


have Fauci be the guy who trial balloons this , but this is inevitable, though it would certainly take down that vaccinated%

when the Biden administration talks vaccination numbers are they still using at least 1 shot as the metric?


----------



## Brav520

For example you have this. 









						Gov. Whitmer says President Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate a 'problem,' report says
					

Speaking in Montcalm County, the governor made perhaps her strongest remarks about the president's vaccine mandate.



					www.freep.com


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> well let’s see , Dicks, Botox , Tilly”s currently . Also, a very localized ad about Santa being at a mall close . So it really runs the gamete. On the plus side an ad popped up about a juice place very close to my house that I had no idea existed , so I visited it .
> 
> my wife soccer knowledge is pretty limited she is learning though! I had to explain to her at my u little Ds game what it meant when the parents kept saying “ play the through ball”.  But the ying/yang is good. For example , when my4 year old  son came off the field crying saying “ they no let me score” she was there for support
> 
> my wife has no idea I’m on the message board , and she would think it would be nuts I’m discussing youth soccer with randoms, imagine what she would think about me spending most of my time on a youth soccer forum talking Covid ?
> 
> $15 sounds like a deal!


Gamut.  If you see a lot of ads that run the gamete, that would not be safe for work.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> have Fauci be the guy who trial balloons this , but this is inevitable, though it would certainly take down that vaccinated%
> 
> when the Biden administration talks vaccination numbers are they still using at least 1 shot as the metric?


What about the folks who got fired?  What a mess.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Gamut.  If you see a lot of ads that run the gamete, that would not be safe for work.


see this is why I need to pay the $15 , I could edit this but I’m restricted to 5 mins now


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> What about the folks who got fired?  What a mess.


explore legal options? No idea if those are even viable, but there are certainly attorneys out there offering services

employment /labor law is booming right now . My Corp has spent untold millions consulting with them since Covid , especially in CA , who knows how the fuck to navigate through this


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> explore legal options? No idea if those are even viable, but there are certainly attorneys out there offering services
> 
> employment /labor law is booming right now . My Corp has spent untold millions consulting with them since Covid , especially in CA , who knows how the fuck to navigate through this


My buddy does biz law and he get's so many calls a day about this and that and now with the mandate as bullshit ((not a law)), people now have a leg to stand on.  They will blame it on the rain but someone will have to pay the damages.  i know people who lost everything.  If this turns out to be fraud among other things, well then people will get compensated.  It's the right thing to do.  Fire someone over a lie.   Assholes look to fire people they dont like politcally, this will 100% bite some in the butt down the road.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> My buddy does biz law and he get's so many calls a day about this and that and now with the mandate as bullshit ((not a law)), people now have a leg to stand on.  They will blame it on the rain but someone will have to pay the damages.  i know people who lost everything.  If this turns out to be fraud among other things, well then people will get compensated.  It's the right thing to do.  Fire someone over a lie.   Assholes look to fire people they dont like politcally, this will 100% bite some in the butt down the road.


Any company using the excuse of the “Biden Mandate” as enforcing vaccinations should pay , most not really stupid companies were waiting this out for the courts to opine before taking any action


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Excellent news and you should give crus credit for preaching no booze.  You can do it old man.  I'm rooting for you to give up all Spirits.  Booze is bad for someone like you....


you were spot on with the weight loss.  Turns out fat makes covid worse in a ton of ways.





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Brav520

Here is the ad ,  Crush. I mean this may be worth having ads


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I'm just trying to ferret out the source of Grace's unique viewpoint on evolution, especially with respect to the evolution of viruses and other simple organisms.  Since that is one of the topics dismissed or treated lightly in some home-schooling curricula, I wondered at the possibility.


Ancient Aliens?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Betsy McCaughey is appalled by the mix of hypocrisy and authoritarianism that leads so many people on the left to applaud vaccine mandates. A slice:


> A mayor who professes to defend bodily autonomy is doing the opposite, forcing everyone to take the shots, regardless of personal qualms. *This is the same de Blasio who warned at a recent Brooklyn pro-choice rally that “you cannot have your government attempt to take away your right to control your body. It cannot happen in America.”*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Fresh hellscape?   Always the extremes from you.
> 
> We already have evidence from the Norway Christmas party that Omicron does not send vaccinated people to the hospital.  Last I checked, it was 90 infected, zero to hospital.  This is ought to be enough to rule out a “vaccine does nothing” argument, especially when you combine it with the lab results.
> 
> Now you have the normal scientific back and forth over quantifying the added benefit.
> 
> No hellscape at all.  They figured out that the Pfizer shot helps against omicron, and are busy establishing the error bars on that statement.  Most of us consider this a good thing.
> 
> Time to re-enter my morning “hellscape“ of tunes and a fresh cup of coffee.


My GMU Econ colleague Bryan Caplan believes, plausibly, that he’s identified a Covid asymmetry. Here’s his opening:

During Covid, the U.S. reverted to our old tradition of federalism – and then embraced gubernatorial dictatorship.  As  result of this strange and shocking institutional revolution, the U.S. witnessed a dramatic rise in policy variance. Some parts of the U.S., like Florida and Texas, returned to near-normalcy in a matter of months.  *Others, like California and New York, became and remain soft police states.*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Brown University epidemiologist Andrew Bostom pushes back against the fast-emerging mania for vaccine-booster mandates. A slice:

Rapidly accumulating data strongly suggest prior covid-19 infection, *“natural immunity,” is more robust, flexible, and enduring than exclusive covid-19 vaccine-acquired immunity. Pfizer’s covid-19 booster trial data confirm boosters afford no benefit in preventing covid-19 infections among those with natural immunity.*

Given these overall randomized trial findings regarding covid-19 vaccine boosters—absence of even a short- term reduction in mild covid-19 infections in those with natural immunity, and no data establishing that boosters prevent covid-19 hospitalizations, deaths, or SARS-CoV-2 transmission—*there is no rational, evidence-based justification for covid-19 vaccine “booster mandates.”*


----------



## Bruddah IZ

… is from page 295 of Thomas Sowell’s May 29, 1998, column titled “The Insulation of the Left,” as this column is reprinted in Sowell’s 2002 collection, _Controversial Essays_:

_






*One of the reasons why government absorbs so much money and takes on ever-increasing powers is that it is home to so many people whose beliefs could not withstand the draconian tests of science, the marketplace or a scoreboard. What we the taxpayers are ultimately paying for is their insulation from reality, as they pursue the heady pleasures of power.*_


----------



## Grace T.

Goalposts are always being moved









						Fauci: It’s ‘when, not if’ definition of fully vaccinated will change
					

Anthony Fauci said Wednesday he thinks the definition of being fully vaccinated will eventually change to include a booster, especially as new evidence is emerging that a booster dose offers the be…




					thehill.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ancient Aliens?


Obscure bad bands no one ever heard of


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Goalposts are always being moved
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci: It’s ‘when, not if’ definition of fully vaccinated will change
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci said Wednesday he thinks the definition of being fully vaccinated will eventually change to include a booster, especially as new evidence is emerging that a booster dose offers the be…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Over time, circumstances change.  We learn more.  New variants evolve.  It is inevitable that recommendations will change, too.   

Did you expect the world to stop for you, to make it easier to keep up?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Over time, circumstances change.  We learn more.  New variants evolve.  It is inevitable that recommendations will change, too.
> 
> Did you expect the world to stop for you, to make it easier to keep up?


Yeah you’ll keep saying that when they are in the 4th and 5th shot. It’s not going to happen. The public won’t tolerate it (assuming they mandate). The pushback dwarfs anything we see now.

remember this started with 14 days to slow the spread. There’s a limit to how far you can push those goalpost, regardless of whether warranted or not


----------



## crush

*Finland's 36-year-old prime minister apologizes for clubbing after COVID-19 close contact*
*Sanna Marin was reportedly out at a Helsinki nightclub around 3 a.m.*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yeah you’ll keep saying that when they are in the 4th and 5th shot. It’s not going to happen. The public won’t tolerate it (assuming they mandate). The pushback dwarfs anything we see now.
> 
> remember this started with 14 days to slow the spread. There’s a limit to how far you can push those goalpost, regardless of whether warranted or not


The existence or non-existence of a 4th or 5th shot depends on biology.  Your complaint is that biology moved the goalposts.

Biology does that.  Biology moved the goalposts on a lot of people over the last two years.  15 million of them are dead.  You're grumpy because you might need a vaccine.  Get over it.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The existence or non-existence of a 4th or 5th shot depends on biology.  Your complaint is that biology moved the goalposts.
> 
> Biology does that.  Biology moved the goalposts on a lot of people over the last two years.  15 million of them are dead.  You're grumpy because you might need a vaccine.  Get over it.











						Dark to Light is a visual journey through darkness into light.
					

Found on Telegram  As we continue to watch the greatest show in history and together welcome a new future on a new earth, always remember: "Where we go one, we all go".  It took the creator of this video a very long time to make this video. Please s…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The existence or non-existence of a 4th or 5th shot depends on biology.  Your complaint is that biology moved the goalposts.
> 
> Biology does that.  Biology moved the goalposts on a lot of people over the last two years.  15 million of them are dead.  You're grumpy because you might need a vaccine.  Get over it.


When emotion is allowed to take over all good sense goes out the window. Hence the popular term of our time, “I feel like . . .”*

*something is happening or the reason for that


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *something is happening or the reason for that


No reason in Treason!!!


----------



## what-happened

.


Hüsker Dü said:


> When emotion is allowed to take over all good sense goes out the window. Hence the popular term of our time, “I feel like . . .”*
> 
> *something is happening or the reason for that


Do you work in pharma?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> .
> 
> Do you work in pharma?


I think he does.  This Husker Du has been telling everyone on here for the last three years that "crush" is crazy and is on meds and needs more meds.  All he talks about is meds and get your 4 shots.  Sales Rep for Pharma?  My buddy's wife is going to hit $450,000 this year.  He's making over $30,000 a month doing loans for Black Rock Investors.  Bought a $2,000,000 house a few months ago and the fat mortgage that comes with it.  He works 60 hours a week pushing loans.  Not only does his wife want his ass boostered, he needs to pay half of the rent, regardless.  They just got married after they both were married for 25+ years to other spouses that were both alcoholics.  Dude is so stressed because the loans are dropping and he thinks by early next year he needs to find another way to make money.  Plus he says more & more people ((investors)) are buying house with cash and crypto coins.  The well is drying and his wife said he better pay his half or he will be on the street.  This is high stake marriage life that cause heart attacks in order bald headed.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The existence or non-existence of a 4th or 5th shot depends on biology.  Your complaint is that biology moved the goalposts.
> 
> Biology does that.  Biology moved the goalposts on a lot of people over the last two years.  15 million of them are dead.  You're grumpy because you might need a vaccine.  Get over it.


4 shots in under 1 year means the vaccines are a failure at preventing disease. I am grumpy because they are a failure yet are still trying to force it on people.  So screw you and your mandates.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *4 shots in under 1 year means the vaccines are a failure at preventing disease.* I am grumpy because they are a failure yet are *still trying to force it* on people.*  So screw you and your mandates.*


Thank you.  Most reasonable people I know took two shots because they trusted their leaders and still wear a mask.  However, they have had enough.  No jabs for their children and no more boosters.  Two shots is all they get.  They now know they will not be considered "fully vaccinated" and if they don;t obey, they will be in the same boat of the anti-vaxxers.  This boat needs to get to about 80% full and then the good guys can handle the rest.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 4 shots in under 1 year means the vaccines are a failure at preventing disease. I am grumpy because they are a failure yet are still trying to force it on people.  So screw you and your mandates.


Earlier you admitted that the vaccine results in fewer severe cases and deaths.  Now you call it a failure.  "Screw you and your mandates" is a selfish attitude that we first noticed when you evaded common-sense protocols by taking your child three states away to avoid them.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Earlier you admitted that the vaccine results in fewer severe cases and deaths.  Now you call it a failure.  "*Screw you and your mandates" is a selfish attitude that we first noticed when you evaded common-sense protocols by taking your child three states away to avoid them.*


This is classic "EOTL" speak.  Busted!!!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Earlier you admitted that the vaccine results in fewer severe cases and deaths.  Now you call it a failure.  "Screw you and your mandates" is a selfish attitude that we first noticed when you evaded common-sense protocols by taking your child three states away to avoid them.


Well 1. Fuck you you piece of garbage for dragging my kids into it 1 of which was suicidal by the insane policies you and you ilk imposed none of which were rooted in science

2. again with the reading comprehension. I said the vaccines were good against severe disease. It’s likely because it removes the novelty element from our systems. Where they are a failure if 4 are required is transmission.

3. I was actually pro state mandate and school/employer mandate at first but the fact that the goalposts have had to move means the rationale for them no longer exists


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> This is classic "EOTL" speak.  Busted!!!


Looks like kicking may in fact be right and eotl and golden gate could in fact be the same people. If so congratulations to him…that’s a long time to keep up three distinct persona…it’s also psychotic.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Well 1. Fuck you you piece of garbage for dragging my kids into it 1 of which was suicidal by the insane policies you and you ilk imposed none of which were rooted in science
> 
> 2. again with the reading comprehension. I said the vaccines were good against severe disease. It’s likely because it removes the novelty element from our systems. Where they are a failure if 4 are required is transmission.
> 
> 3. I was actually pro state mandate and school/employer mandate at first but the fact that the goalposts have had to move means the rationale for them no longer exists


do not let the Espola”s of the world use your morals against you. He doesn’t give  2 shits about your children

also, do not let him gaslight you into thinking it’s normal to get 3 shots , maybe 4 in one calendar year


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Well 1. Fuck you you piece of garbage for dragging my kids into it 1 of which was suicidal by the insane policies you and you ilk imposed none of which were rooted in science
> 
> 2. again with the reading comprehension. I said the vaccines were good against severe disease. It’s likely because it removes the novelty element from our systems. Where they are a failure if 4 are required is transmission.
> 
> 3. I was actually pro state mandate and school/employer mandate at first but the fact that the goalposts have had to move means the rationale for them no longer exists


100% true Grace T.  Red Pilling and going down the rabitt hole is the only way out.  These psychopaths have lost power and without power their little men who have diapers over their mouths.  We see these so called "men" everyday.  I'm proud of Grace T.  Continue asking questions and never believe anyone until you do your own research.  This Espola dude is on the side of wrong.  I came here for help and he lied to me.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Looks like kicking may in fact be right and eotl and golden gate could in fact be the same people. If so congratulations to him…that’s a long time to keep up three distinct persona…*it’s also psychotic.*


Yes, he's psychotic.  He has zero empathy, just like EOTL.  What else and why would old 75 year old ex-Navy guy behave like this?  How does one play with three personalities?  This dude is a sicko and not to be trusted.  Golden Gate keeps trying to figure out where my dd is going to ball?  Creeper dude.  Finish him off Grace.  I told you 2022 will be the year for woman and let me tell you, that is going to happen.  I'm sorry for this so called man and how he treats females.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Well 1. Fuck you you piece of garbage for dragging my kids into it 1 of which was suicidal by the insane policies you and you ilk imposed none of which were rooted in science
> 
> 2. again with the reading comprehension. I said the vaccines were good against severe disease. It’s likely because it removes the novelty element from our systems. Where they are a failure if 4 are required is transmission.
> 
> 3. I was actually pro state mandate and school/employer mandate at first but the fact that the goalposts have had to move means the rationale for them no longer exists


You're the one who brought your kid into this months ago when you were showing us how smart you were to beat the system.

Ding!  Does anyone want my "reading comprehension" beer?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're the one who brought your kid into this months ago when you were showing us how smart you were to beat the system.
> 
> Ding!  Does anyone want my "reading comprehension" beer?


Fuck you espola.  You are human garbage no better than Eotl.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> This is classic "EOTL" speak.  Busted!!!


Old news for those that have been here a while but good for the newcomers to understand.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Fuck you espola.  You are human garbage no better than Eotl.


Haha! More old news.


----------



## crush

I just got off the phone with probably my #1 liberal pal that I debate every month over coffee.  Guess what Grace T?  He can see the truth and it's amazing.  He actually was crying and said sorry to me and thanked me.  He and his wife want to do anything they can to help kids with all their millions.  Grace, my mom volunteered her time every week to help people not kill themselves and fostered 8 kids and raised 4 of her own.  This place has been full of Darkness and you know it. The men the men.  It's now time for female to take her rightful spot.  The kids are so hurting right now because the men haven;t led.  Men are supposed to protect those who need protecting.  These snakes in the grass will be no more.  I stand with other men to do better for all woman, children and widows.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Old news for those that have been here a while but good for the newcomers to understand.


I'm here to help 100% the newbies.  Espola was my mentor early on until he should me his true colors.  I came here to help out the next generation and he lied.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> You're the one who brought your kid into this months ago when you were showing us how smart you were to beat the system.
> 
> Ding!  Does anyone want my "reading comprehension" beer?


Shameful!!!


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Haha! More old news.


We’ll he did drag us back to summer 2020.  And in the end everything that drove us to Utah (the school closures, beach closings, outdoor masks, suspending sports) turned out to be unscientific guess work JUST LIKE I WAS SAYING. It wasn’t exactly their most shinning moment and it drives them insane they were wrong about everything.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> do not let the Espola”s of the world use your morals against you. He doesn’t give  2 shits about your children
> 
> also, do not let him gaslight you into thinking it’s normal to get 3 shots , maybe 4 in one calendar year


What's not normal in the whole history of this country is the existence of an organized political resistance to common sense health measures.  A side-effect of that is that people are effectively volunteering to be the incubators of the new variants.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What's not normal in the whole history of this country is the existence of an organized political resistance to common sense health measures.  A side-effect of that is that people are effectively volunteering to be the incubators of the new variants.


What’s not normal in the whole history of western civilization is a bunch of aged members of a selfish generation going into a panic for their own lives and putting measures (most of which don’t work) on children to protect them.  A side effect of this is that people are effectively agreeing to authoritarianism and vast restraints on their freedom for a disease where they ifr now stands at .1% and for measures the vast majority of which do nothing to actually stop the spread of disease

fify asshole.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We’ll he did drag us back to summer 2020.  And in the end everything that drove us to Utah (the school closures, beach closings, outdoor masks, suspending sports) turned out to be unscientific guess work JUST LIKE I WAS SAYING. It wasn’t exactly their most shinning moment and it drives them insane they were wrong about everything.


Now you are using some of your previous unproven (and even disproven) statements to justify your newest rants.  Just like I said you did all along. Doesn't that drive you crazy that I figured you out long ago??


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What’s not normal in the whole history of western civilization is a bunch of aged members of a selfish generation going into a panic for their own lives and putting measures (most of which don’t work) on children to protect them.  A side effect of this is that people are effectively agreeing to authoritarianism and vast restraints on their freedom for a disease where they ifr now stands at .1% and for measures the vast majority of which do nothing to actually stop the spread of disease
> 
> fify asshole.


You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.  Please continue.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> What's not normal in the whole history of this country is the existence of an organized political resistance to common sense health measures.  A side-effect of that is that people are effectively volunteering to be the incubators of the new variants.


Now speak and answer all the questions instead of using Golden Gate and Husler Du as a cover.  I think you used GG to go off on dad4, which I also think you run.  Trying to make dad a hero?  Nice try.  Were unto you.  Fake likes just to feel right is insane and whacho bird coo coo shit.  That's why I was always honest when I switched my avatars early on.  Ellejustus received threats from assholes and a few lawyers who were afraid to challenge my rants of youth soccer.  Espola the old fart has been around the youth soccer game for over 40 years.  Hand in cookie jar?  Be a man and debate the issues Espola. Take the diaper off your fucking face and debate the issues, like a real man does.  We all want a better America and better soccer for the next group.  Let's do better.  I told you I was going to help make a change.  One man can do that if he;s not afraid of the big bad wolf.  Stop cheating too and we can all enjoy a beautiful new earth equally


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Now you are using some of your previous unproven (and even disproven) statements to justify your newest rants.  Just like I said you did all along. Doesn't that drive you crazy that I figured you out long ago??


Now you are just lashing out because your entire outlook is in tatters and you’ve been shown to be a piece of shit

masks outdoors: I was right
Schools: I was righht
Sports: I was right
Outdoor activities and exercises: not only was I right but the measures were counterprodictive

who was wrong? You

eat on that


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.  Please continue.


I’m not the fool here. You are and have been repeatedly shown to be. A fool who can’t follow along conversations, someone whose repeatedly behaved like an ass, and now an immoral piece of garbage. Whose been right? Me. Whose been wrong? You. Eat on that.  Your only real contribution has been comedy and our laughing at you


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Now you are just lashing out because your entire outlook is in tatters and you’ve been shown to be a piece of shit
> 
> masks outdoors: I was right
> Schools: I was righht
> Sports: I was right
> Outdoor activities and exercises: not only was I right but the measures were counterprodictive
> 
> who was wrong? You
> 
> eat on that


What is my "entire outlook"?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not the fool here. You are and have been repeatedly shown to be. A fool who can’t follow along conversations, someone whose repeatedly behaved like an ass, and now an immoral piece of garbage. Whose been right? Me. Whose been wrong? You. Eat on that.  Your only real contribution has been comedy and our laughing at you


What is a covidian?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> What is my "entire outlook"?


Watch a learn from this video.  This explains everything and the outlook.  Grace T just went through a life changing event.  You sir need to find the light and stay in the light.  









						Dark to Light is a visual journey through darkness into light.
					

Found on Telegram  As we continue to watch the greatest show in history and together welcome a new future on a new earth, always remember: "Where we go one, we all go".  It took the creator of this video a very long time to make this video. Please s…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is my "entire outlook"?


Weak.  Back to the two step.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is a covidian?


Weak.  Back to the two step.  Stick to comedy.  It's your 1 strength


----------



## Grace T.

True


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468954285690044416


----------



## espola

espola said:


> You're the one who brought your kid into this months ago when you were showing us how smart you were to beat the system.
> 
> Ding!  Does anyone want my "reading comprehension" beer?


My mistake.  After further review, my trigger word is "covidian".  "Reading comprehension" belongs to dad4.


----------



## Grace T.

Gottlieb has gone full insane.  He wants to semi permanently reorganize life around COVID prevention. That's basically what's at stake here and will be decided decisively in the 2022 elections: life back to normal or reorganize life permanently.  The thing most likely to end the debate in the United States is either a D victory in 2022 (which includes a minimal losses scenario) or the massive and total destruction of the D party, one way or another.  But that's what's on the table now: non stop COVID for years, or get back to normal....there's very little in between.










						'We've reached limits of sensible policy' to fight COVID-19. Now, we need cultural change.
					

While conservatives may fight vaccine mandates and other changes to deal with the public health reality, there's no getting around the death toll.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Weak.  Back to the two step.  Stick to comedy.  It's your 1 strength


Why are you avoiding this?  I would think you would be proud of your own creations.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> My mistake.  After further review, my trigger word is "covidian".  "Reading comprehension" belongs to dad4.


Funny considering he is more the covidian and you have the bigger problem with reading comprehension.  Hahaha!  See the comedy works.  Stick with that.  Now give me a "What's up with that?" joke


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Why are you avoiding this?  I would think you would be proud of your own creations.


Weak.  Again, stick with comedy.  It's your strength clown.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Weak.  Back to the two step.


You can't back up your statement?  On the surface, based on your responses to me, I suspect that you are mistaken about my position, but I can't be sure unless you explain what you mean.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> True
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468954285690044416


Who is Jeffrey A Tucker?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Funny considering he is more the covidian and you have the bigger problem with reading comprehension.  Hahaha!  See the comedy works.  Stick with that.  Now give me a "What's up with that?" joke


So dad4 is an example of a covidian?  Who else is?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You can't back up your statement?  On the surface, based on your responses to me, I suspect that you are mistaken about my position, but I can't be sure unless you explain what you mean.


Are we back to your favorite topic....you?  No thanks.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Gottlieb has gone full insane.  He wants to semi permanently reorganize life around COVID prevention. That's basically what's at stake here and will be decided decisively in the 2022 elections: life back to normal or reorganize life permanently.  The thing most likely to end the debate in the United States is either a D victory in 2022 (which includes a minimal losses scenario) or the massive and total destruction of the D party, one way or another.  But that's what's on the table now: non stop COVID for years, or get back to normal....there's very little in between.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'We've reached limits of sensible policy' to fight COVID-19. Now, we need cultural change.
> 
> 
> While conservatives may fight vaccine mandates and other changes to deal with the public health reality, there's no getting around the death toll.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


Its not either or anymore Grace T.  Its only Both and.  No duralism ever after this is over.  Every human that wants to stya and help heal the planet and make it a better place can stay.  Psychopath Cain is no more.  The heart of Abel will now be in charge.  Throw in Christ and his consciousness as law of the land and the way life is to be played and you got peace and paradise.  I promise that whatever that guy was teaching you in college was not accurate and you know it.  It does hurt when someone says, "if you dont do this your going to hell."  It's a false teaching only to make folks hate each other and divide all of us with fake religion.   Once Cain is locked up, we will all be free.  I believe you are what you believe and you get what you think. Think about this deeply with your brain today and your mind will start to be open to the other 90% of your brain.  I love you Grace T   I pray for your boys.  I truly do


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So dad4 is an example of a covidian?  Who else is?


Tell me what does "is more the" mean?

Again, your routine is weak when you drift away from the comedy.  Now make me laugh.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Gottlieb has gone full insane.  He wants to semi permanently reorganize life around COVID prevention. That's basically what's at stake here and will be decided decisively in the 2022 elections: life back to normal or reorganize life permanently.  The thing most likely to end the debate in the United States is either a D victory in 2022 (which includes a minimal losses scenario) or the massive and total destruction of the D party, one way or another.  But that's what's on the table now: non stop COVID for years, or get back to normal....there's very little in between.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'We've reached limits of sensible policy' to fight COVID-19. Now, we need cultural change.
> 
> 
> While conservatives may fight vaccine mandates and other changes to deal with the public health reality, there's no getting around the death toll.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


We had effective polio vaccines available in this country starting about 1955.  Polio was not eliminated in this country (based on no new reported cases) until about 1980.  We still require polio vaccinations for children and for travelers in and out of certain countries because there still exists a significant pool of diseased individuals there.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 4 shots in under 1 year means the vaccines are a failure at preventing disease. I am grumpy because they are a failure yet are still trying to force it on people.  So screw you and your mandates.


4 shots in one year is proof of failure?   Unless you ignored the guidelines, your family already had 4 shots in one year for PCV13.  

They also had 3 shots in one year for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, hepatitus B, HiB, and rotavirus.  

To look at childhood vaccinations, 3-4 shots is normal.  The surprise would have been if it were only two.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> We had effective polio vaccines available in this country starting about 1955.  Polio was not eliminated in this country (based on no new reported cases) until about 1980.  We still require polio vaccinations for children and for travelers in and out of certain countries because there still exists a significant pool of diseased individuals there.


All true, but if you need at least 4 covid shots in < 1 year (some pharma people are suggesting five at least, maybe more...the 3 original, the new omicron, the omicron booster) that's not what the polio shot did, and that's only a small part of what Gottlieb is suggesting.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Tell me what does "is more the" mean?
> 
> Again, your routine is weak when you drift away from the comedy.  Now make me laugh.


Since you refuse to provide a definition, I am trying to work out the meaning by language analysis.  I infer that dad4 is more like a pure covidian than I am -- is that a correct guess?  Who is the most covidian-like poster here?

Grammarly wants to know if it should add "covidian" to its dictionary.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> What's not normal in the whole history of this country is the existence of an organized political resistance to common sense health measures.  A side-effect of that is that people are effectively volunteering to be the incubators of the new variants.


this is easy

the happy are never like by the unhappy ( you)


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Are we back to your favorite topic....you?  No thanks.


That's an assertion without any backup data.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's an assertion without any backup data.


Hahahahahah!  Now that's what I'm talking about.  Comedy.  Good one from the guy who has his own neighborhood.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> All true, but if you need at least 4 covid shots in < 1 year (some pharma people are suggesting five at least, maybe more...the 3 original, the new omicron, the omicron booster) that's not what the polio shot did, and that's only a small part of what Gottlieb is suggesting.


Ya, like my mom took me to get the Polio shot and then the Doc told her that we need a few more because Polio has a new brother named Mario and he's evil.  Get back to my office for second jab.  These guys are idiots!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 4 shots in one year is proof of failure?   Unless you ignored the guidelines, your family already had 4 shots in one year for PCV13.
> 
> They also had 3 shots in one year for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, hepatitus B, HiB, and rotavirus.
> 
> To look at childhood vaccinations, 3-4 shots is normal.  The surprise would have been if it were only two.


Misleading at best.

1. the PCV dose is not all in 1 year
2. this is not that and you know it.  The reason why they are talking more than 3 now is because: a) there's preliminary data the boosters are waning (remember the entire rationale behind the Gottlieb theory and boosters is that 1 booster would confer long lasting immunity because they f'ed it up and did 2 shots two spaced together....that's rapidly falling by the way side), and b) the virus mutates away from the original formulation which means if we wanted to stop transmission we might need several more shots repeatedly over years.  Because, unlike Gottlieb and his original booster theory, you can't give assurances now that we won't need a new coronavirus shot ever year.
3. if that's the case....fine....but we don't mandate the flu shot.  We shouldn't mandate the coronavirus shot.  It's very different than any of the above experiences  
4. rotavirus isn't usually a shot.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> 4 shots in one year is proof of failure?   Unless you ignored the guidelines, your family already had 4 shots in one year for PCV13.
> 
> They also had 3 shots in one year for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, hepatitus B, HiB, and rotavirus.
> 
> To look at childhood vaccinations, 3-4 shots is normal.  The surprise would have been if it were only two.


A better way to frame this:  Current vaccines are the best we have, and they aren't very good.  They just aren't.  Not their fault, tough going when you are trying to decipher a novel virus.  There are certain things we know that are fact but we've really thrown those out the door in the face of politcis. 

 It's been great for CEO and company financials and not so great for people who've developed this immense mistruct of the government.   I suppose big pharma could be given the benefit of the doubt that they are working as hard as they can to come up with a better way.  The recent FDA approvals are a step in the right direction.  It's funny though how these treatments are not  given the same political slant as the vaccines themselves.  They are just as new/experimental as the vaccines.  Granted, there is less of a negative safety profile associated with MABs.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Misleading at best.
> 
> 1. the PCV dose is not all in 1 year
> 2. this is not that and you know it.  The reason why they are talking more than 3 now is because: a) there's preliminary data the boosters are waning (remember the entire rationale behind the Gottlieb theory and boosters is that 1 booster would confer long lasting immunity because they f'ed it up and did 2 shots two spaced together....that's rapidly falling by the way side), and b) the virus mutates away from the original formulation which means if we wanted to stop transmission we might need several more shots repeatedly over years.  Because, unlike Gottlieb and his original booster theory, you can't give assurances now that we won't need a new coronavirus shot ever year.
> 3. if that's the case....fine....but we don't mandate the flu shot.  We shouldn't mandate the coronavirus shot.  It's very different than any of the above experiences
> 4. rotavirus isn't usually a shot.


Plenty wrong with the orginal post but just wasn't worth the effort.  Hard to compare apples to  coconuts..


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> A better way to frame this:  Current vaccines are the best we have, and they aren't very good.  They just aren't.  Not their fault, tough going when you are trying to decipher a novel virus.  There are certain things we know that are fact but we've really thrown those out the door in the face of politcis.
> 
> It's been great for CEO and company financials and not so great for people who've developed this immense mistruct of the government.   I suppose big pharma could be given the benefit of the doubt that they are working as hard as they can to come up with a better way.  The recent FDA approvals are a step in the right direction.  It's funny though how these treatments are not  given the same political slant as the vaccines themselves.  They are just as new/experimental as the vaccines.  Granted, there is less of a negative safety profile associated with MABs.


yes but that's why they shouldn't be mandated then....let people decide....it's why I've moved from support of state/employer/school mandates to opposed to them (at least until they can come up with one that actually stops transmission for good then I'll reevaluate the cost/benefit based on where we are).


----------



## crush

Dr. F was so cool about October 31st and never said anything like what he just said about our time with Christ.  He wants families fighting and having division.  

I want to know if any of you Avatars are going to put this bullshit in place over the Holidays?  Espola, Husler, Dad4 and Golden Gate count for only one vote.  Crush is 100% a no and I will not ask for proof of vaccination.  

*Fauci says families should 'ask,' 'maybe require' COVID vaccine for holiday guests before indoor celebrations*
*The COVID-19 variant omicron has been detected in 19 states*

"When you get vaccinated, and you have a vaccinated group, and you are in an indoor setting, you can enjoy, as we have traditionally over the years, dinners and gatherings within the home with people who are vaccinated," Fauci explained.  

"And that's the reason why people should, *if they invite people over their home, essentially ask and maybe require that people show evidence that they are vaccinated*, or give their honest and good faith word that they have been vaccinated," he continued.  ((Just lie))

Fauci continued by citing data indicating the vaccinated are at a much less risk of hospitalization or death in the event they do contract a breakthrough case of COVID. 

"So, vaccinated puts you in a much different position than the extreme vulnerability of people who are not vaccinated, because all you have to do is look at the data and look at those areas of the country, those states, those communities that are under-vaccinated," Fauci said.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> yes but that's why they shouldn't be mandated then....let people decide....it's why I've moved from support of state/employer/school mandates to opposed to them (at least until they can come up with one that actually stops transmission for good then I'll reevaluate the cost/benefit based on where we are).


Thank you Grace T.  I have many like you today who have seen the truth now.  Thank you.  My life depends on it.  I have one pal who will not repent and he's all in with the dark because he hates t so much.  Blinded by his hate for t is not an excuse to cheat, lie and steal and them smash, punch and grab all because you want to be immoral.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Misleading at best.
> 
> 1. the PCV dose is not all in 1 year
> 2. this is not that and you know it.  The reason why they are talking more than 3 now is because: a) there's preliminary data the boosters are waning (remember the entire rationale behind the Gottlieb theory and boosters is that 1 booster would confer long lasting immunity because they f'ed it up and did 2 shots two spaced together....that's rapidly falling by the way side), and b) the virus mutates away from the original formulation which means if we wanted to stop transmission we might need several more shots repeatedly over years.  Because, unlike Gottlieb and his original booster theory, you can't give assurances now that we won't need a new coronavirus shot ever year.
> 3. if that's the case....fine....but we don't mandate the flu shot.  We shouldn't mandate the coronavirus shot.  It's very different than any of the above experiences
> 4. rotavirus isn't usually a shot.


Why do you think DTaP has five shots?  Those boosters fade, too.  And, if 20% of the country refused to get their measles shots, you’d see new measles variants all the time, too.

I’m used to little kids whining about having to go in for their booster shots.  It’s disgraceful that so many adults are doing the same.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *I’m used to little kids whining about having to go in for their booster shots.*


Are you really a human?  You must be a doctor or a nurse?  Not really a math teacher like Epstein?  Crossing lines today I see.  Good, because the more bullshit you and Husler and espola spew, the quicker this will be over.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why do you think DTaP has five shots?  Those boosters fade, too.  And, if 20% of the country refused to get their measles shots, you’d see new measles variants all the time, too.
> 
> I’m used to little kids whining about having to go in for their booster shots.  It’s disgraceful that so many adults are doing the same.


Again, misleading.  1) they aren't all in1 year, 2) they aren't due to a constantly mutating virus, 3) there are some regions of the world where we have a more than 20% nonvaccination rate for measles....where are the variants?, 4) we don't make adults get them (though they should probably get some).  Face facts....this is right now at best the flu shot.   It's a flu shot with a lot of nasty side effects that are unpleasant and some outright dangerous. If it's the flu shot, great offer it up, but don't mandate it.

I'm used to people being scared of things, including getting ill.  It's disgraceful that so many adults are trying to put responsibility for their own fears on others, particularly little kids.

and this guy totally has your number:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468966770258046977


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> A better way to frame this:  Current vaccines are the best we have, and they aren't very good.  They just aren't.  Not their fault, tough going when you are trying to decipher a novel virus.  There are certain things we know that are fact but we've really thrown those out the door in the face of politcis.
> 
> It's been great for CEO and company financials and not so great for people who've developed this immense mistruct of the government.   I suppose big pharma could be given the benefit of the doubt that they are working as hard as they can to come up with a better way.  The recent FDA approvals are a step in the right direction.  It's funny though how these treatments are not  given the same political slant as the vaccines themselves.  They are just as new/experimental as the vaccines.  Granted, there is less of a negative safety profile associated with MABs.


I’m not sure what you mean by “not very good”.  

By any measure, they’ve already saved millions of lives.  Can you imagine how many more would have died in the Delta surge if we’d had no vaccine for those over 60?

Will they have a better vaccine sometime in the future?  Probably.  But that’s different from saying the current one is bad.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, misleading.  1) they aren't all in1 year, 2) they aren't due to a constantly mutating virus, 3) there are some regions of the world where we have a more than 20% nonvaccination rate for measles....where are the variants?, 4) we don't make adults get them (though they should probably get some).  Face facts....this is right now at best the flu shot.   It's a flu shot with a lot of nasty side effects that are unpleasant and some outright dangerous. If it's the flu shot, great offer it up, but don't mandate it.
> 
> I'm used to people being scared of things, including getting ill.  It's disgraceful that so many adults are trying to put responsibility for their own fears on others, particularly little kids.
> 
> and this guy totally has your number:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468966770258046977


What makes you think the other viral and bacterial diseases don’t mutate and evolve?  it’s just slower when you have fewer people harboring the disease.

Worldwide measles cases are counted in the tens of thousands.  If we had had 2 billion measles cases last year, I’m sure you’d see some variants.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> A better way to frame this:  Current vaccines are the best we have, and they aren't very good.  They just aren't.  Not their fault, tough going when you are trying to decipher a novel virus.  There are certain things we know that are fact but we've really thrown those out the door in the face of politcis.
> 
> It's been great for CEO and company financials and not so great for people who've developed this immense mistruct of the government.   I suppose big pharma could be given the benefit of the doubt that they are working as hard as they can to come up with a better way.  The recent FDA approvals are a step in the right direction.  It's funny though how these treatments are not  given the same political slant as the vaccines themselves.  They are just as new/experimental as the vaccines.  Granted, there is less of a negative safety profile associated with MABs.


Back in the days when the best vaccines were produced from a melange of attenuated or killed viruses, the antibodies developed in the body came after exposure to a wide range of phenotypes, thus giving a wider foundation to the immunity.  I fear that the current genetic engineering vaccines are too much exactly the same, thus narrowing the effectiveness against new strains that don't depend on the mechanism attacked by the vaccine and resulting antibodies.  Some scientific commentators have suggested that that is how omicron evades the vaccine.  If a new vaccine is developed specifically to attack omicron, that is admitting to some degree that it is essentially a new disease.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I’m not sure what you mean by “not very good”.
> 
> By any measure, they’ve already saved millions of lives.  Can you imagine how many more would have died in the Delta surge if we’d had no vaccine for those over 60?
> 
> Will they have a better vaccine sometime in the future?  Probably.  But that’s different from saying the current one is bad.


"not very good" is not "poor".  But come on!....even Joe Biden thought it would mean the pandemic would be over by July 4.  The expectation was that the vaccines would prevent against death (they don't....they reduce it but for the very old or immunocompromised they are still vulnerable), severe illness (they don't...it stops hospitalization but vaccinated individuals are still falling ill bad enough to require m antibodies), and transmission (for which they've been a failure, PARTICULARLY in light of the omicron.  The vaccines have not lived up to the promised expectations.  That is very very clear and misleading for you to claim otherwise. 

There are two rationales for vaccination. 1. To protect the idiots from themselves.  But if you believe in bodily autonomy and that people have the right to make even more important decisions like voting or having children, then why do you force this on them.  2. To protect the population and hospitals from spread of the disease....and while the vaccines clearly help with this, it's not enough particularly with the omicron and particularly if repeated shots are required, to mandate it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What makes you think the other viral and bacterial diseases don’t mutate and evolve?  it’s just slower when you have fewer people harboring the disease.
> 
> Worldwide measles cases are counted in the tens of thousands.  If we had had 2 billion measles cases last year, I’m sure you’d see some variants.


What makes you think that all viruses and bacteria mutate at the same rate?  This one just happens to do it quickly, which means in retrospect probably targeting the spike protein wasn't a good way to go for the vaccine had we had the luxury of more time.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Back in the days when the best vaccines were produced from a melange of attenuated or killed viruses, the antibodies developed in the body came after exposure to a wide range of phenotypes, thus giving a wider foundation to the immunity.  I fear that the current genetic engineering vaccines are too much exactly the same, thus narrowing the effectiveness against new strains that don't depend on the mechanism attacked by the vaccine and resulting antibodies.  Some scientific commentators have suggested that that is how omicron evades the vaccine.  If a new vaccine is developed specifically to attack omicron, that is admitting to some degree that it is essentially a new disease.


Wow an actual, insightful, genuinely thoughtful post by espola on the same day I had pretty much written him off as a clown.  That one earns you an apology from me: you aren't entirely useless.  I'm sorry for thinking as much.  Color me shocked.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> What makes you think that all viruses and bacteria mutate at the same rate?  This one just happens to do it quickly, which means in retrospect probably targeting the spike protein wasn't a good way to go for the vaccine had we had the luxury of more time.


I don’t think they all mutate at the same rate.   

I am sure a virology expert could tell you whether measles has a good or a bad system to fix data replication errors, and how that affects the mutation rate.  That is, they could tell you if you were willing to listen to an expert.

Or, you can keep with your current strategy of listening to fringe twitter feeds and telling yourself that you are right.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I don’t think they all mutate at the same rate.
> 
> I am sure a virology expert could tell you whether measles has a good or a bad system to fix data replication errors, and how that affects the mutation rate.  That is, they could tell you if you were willing to listen to an expert.
> 
> Or, you can keep with your current strategy of listening to fringe twitter feeds and telling yourself that you are right.


Ah, i see we are back with the old "trust the experts" (which YOU mean trust the establishmentarian experts that agree with my priors) and complaining about twitter feeds.

Drink! (that's a double).

p.s. measles has been around for centuries.  We've been vaccinating since the 60s.  you don't need detailed math to see it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow an actual, insightful, genuinely thoughtful post by espola on the same day I had pretty much written him off as a clown.  That one earns you an apology from me: you aren't entirely useless.  I'm sorry for thinking as much.  Color me shocked.


I should have edited that last sentence down to half as many words.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I should have edited that last sentence down to half as many words.


Take your win.  Enjoy it.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Earlier you admitted that the vaccine results in fewer severe cases and deaths.  Now you call it a failure.  "Screw you and your mandates" is a selfish attitude that we first noticed when you evaded common-sense protocols by taking your child three states away to avoid them.


You are very dangerous in the State you're in.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> What's not normal in the whole history of this country is the existence of an organized political resistance to common sense health measures.  A side-effect of that is that people are effectively volunteering to be the incubators of the new variants.


You're Babbling.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> We had effective polio vaccines available in this country starting about 1955.  Polio was not eliminated in this country (based on no new reported cases) until about 1980.  We still require polio vaccinations for children and for travelers in and out of certain countries because there still exists a significant pool of diseased individuals there.


Still Babbling.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Back in the days when the best vaccines were produced from a melange of attenuated or killed viruses, the antibodies developed in the body came after exposure to a wide range of phenotypes, thus giving a wider foundation to the immunity.  I fear that the current genetic engineering vaccines are too much exactly the same, thus narrowing the effectiveness against new strains that don't depend on the mechanism attacked by the vaccine and resulting antibodies.  Some scientific commentators have suggested that that is how omicron evades the vaccine.  If a new vaccine is developed specifically to attack omicron, that is admitting to some degree that it is essentially a new disease.



.........................


----------



## thirteenknots

Raid.....a household pest spray.

Hmmm.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ah, i see we are back with the old "trust the experts" (which YOU mean trust the establishmentarian experts that agree with my priors) and complaining about twitter feeds.
> 
> Drink! (that's a double).
> 
> p.s. measles has been around for centuries.  We've been vaccinating since the 60s.  you don't need detailed math to see it.


I’m sorry.  I didn‘t give “Zuby” credit for his extensive virology research work.  

If you quote some random musician as evidence on a scientific question, don’t complain when someone notices.  

Reasonable question on the existence of measles variants.  Almost all of the world’s measles cases happened well before we were able to detect variants.   If there had been different variants, what makes you think you would know about it?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Take your win.  Enjoy it.


I also probably should have used "alleles" instead of "phenotypes", but the difference in meanings is subtle.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> 4 shots in one year is proof of failure?   Unless you ignored the guidelines, your family already had 4 shots in one year for PCV13.
> 
> They also had 3 shots in one year for diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, hepatitus B, HiB, and rotavirus.
> 
> To look at childhood vaccinations, 3-4 shots is normal.  The surprise would have been if it were only two.


The problem with this should be obvious. 

The shots you are talking about were developed over years before they went public. So they knew how many shots needed, how effective they were/are, etc. 

With covid vaxxes, they still just don't know.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I’m sorry.  I didn‘t give “Zuby” credit for his extensive virology research work.
> 
> If you quote some random musician as evidence on a scientific question, don’t complain when someone notices.
> 
> Reasonable question on the existence of measles variants.  Almost all of the world’s measles cases happened well before we were able to detect variants.   If there had been different variants, what makes you think you would know about it?


One feature of modern biology is how rapidly the techniques have advanced since the discovery of the structure of DNA and thus the mechanism of genetic coding.  It still seems like science fiction to me that someone sitting in a lab at a computer console can type in or edit in from archived fragments the entire genetic code for a new organism, and the thing survives to reproduce on its own.  It's like Dr. Frankenstein almost had it right when he assembled his creature from dead body parts, except that he wasn't thinking small enough.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The problem with this should be obvious.
> 
> The shots you are talking about were developed over years before they went public. So they knew how many shots needed, how effective they were/are, etc.
> 
> With covid vaxxes, they still just don't know.


We could always wait a few more years.  How many would die in that time?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I’m sorry.  I didn‘t give “Zuby” credit for his extensive virology research work.
> 
> If you quote some random musician as evidence on a scientific question, don’t complain when someone notices.
> 
> Reasonable question on the existence of measles variants.  Almost all of the world’s measles cases happened well before we were able to detect variants.   If there had been different variants, what makes you think you would know about it?


Your meritocratic contempt just drips from your mouth doesn't it?  You're just po'd that he has your number.  It especially hurts that a musician that you consider a nobody is calling out the eggheaded so-called experts.  Yikes!

We've had 60 years of experience with the vaccine.   How does that compare to the Rona?  It's a fair point that measles (way back to Justinian) might have been more rapidly evolving then (when it was just beginning) but that just means it's hubris to think we could conquer a novel respiratory virus due to blind faith in some new technology.  Measles is not novel.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The problem with this should be obvious.
> 
> The shots you are talking about were developed over years before they went public. So they knew how many shots needed, how effective they were/are, etc.
> 
> With covid vaxxes, they still just don't know.


Read the polio vaccine history.  It’s not as clear cut as you think.  There were plenty of bumps in the road, even after approval of the first doses.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> We could always wait a few more years.  How many would die in that time?


Hey another really great point.  "Private Pyle, you are definitely born again hard.  Hell I might even allow you to serve as a rifleman in my beloved corp."

The issue, though, then is: a. you shouldn't mandate it until they sure (offer it up for those who want to take the risks....don't force it on them), and b. it looks like the initial doses may be enough to take the sting off severe disease due to novelity....requiring more shots on top of that is diminishing returns.


----------



## thirteenknots

" Civilization is a condition that only works when the 
preponderance of individuals agree to it. 
Once that cracks no amount of law enforcement 
can reverse the problem. "


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Read the polio vaccine history.  It’s not as clear cut as you think.  There were plenty of bumps in the road, even after approval of the first doses.


Which historically led them to be more cautious with vaccines like the chicken pox and rotavirus vaccines.  I myself was a victim of that delay, being hospitalized for chicken pox, a few years before the FDA approved it (even though it had been approved in Europe).


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Your meritocratic contempt just drips from your mouth doesn't it?  You're just po'd that he has your number.  It especially hurts that a musician that you consider a nobody is calling out the eggheaded so-called experts.  Yikes!
> 
> We've had 60 years of experience with the vaccine.   How does that compare to the Rona?  It's a fair point that measles (way back to Justinian) might have been more rapidly evolving then (when it was just beginning) but that just means it's hubris to think we could conquer a novel respiratory virus due to blind faith in some new technology.  Measles is not novel.


Tell you what.  I’ll take my medical advice from the so-called experts.  You take your medical advice from hip-hop musicians.

It works the other way, too.  Who needs music from musicians?   Let’s have music from the so-called experts:


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Tell you what.  I’ll take my medical advice from the so-called experts.  You take your medical advice from hip-hop musicians.
> 
> It works the other way, too.  Who needs music from musicians?   Let’s have music from the so-called experts:


Objection again.  Misleading.

We've already established there are only certain experts you'll listen to. 

The hip-hop musician also isn't giving medical advice.  He's calling out your so-called experts for their failures.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Over time, circumstances change.  We learn more.  New variants evolve.  It is inevitable that recommendations will change, too.
> 
> Did you expect the world to stop for you, to make it easier to keep up?


Are you conceding that we can't stop the virus?

I recall saying early on that the virus will linger for awhile because it will always find the path of least resistance regardless of what we do, while you professed we could control the virus and reach zero covid with various policies.  It's the false premise that we can eliminate the virus that causes the goalposts to move.  Mitigate yes, eliminate no.

Queue its the unvaccinated, anti-maskers, and restriction ignoring population's fault that Covid hasn't been eliminated.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Objection again.  Misleading.
> 
> We've already established there are only certain experts you'll listen to.
> 
> The hip-hop musician also isn't giving medical advice.  He's calling out your so-called experts for their failures.


The hip hop musician was giving his expert opinion on the vaccine.  

Such an opinion is about as useful as hip hop music produced by aerosol scientists.  

Catchy, wasn’t it?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The existence or non-existence of a 4th or 5th shot depends on biology.  Your complaint is that biology moved the goalposts.
> 
> Biology does that.  Biology moved the goalposts on a lot of people over the last two years.  15 million of them are dead.  You're grumpy because you might need a vaccine.  Get over it.


Biology plays some role, but politics clearly play a larger role.  For example, the timing and parameters for Newsom's tier system.  In particular, the cessation of that program.  Also the goalposts being far different in each state.

It's also the scientific arrogance that we could eliminate the virus that has led to a lot of goal post moving.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Are you conceding that we can't stop the virus?
> 
> I recall saying early on that the virus will linger for awhile because it will always find the path of least resistance regardless of what we do, while you professed we could control the virus and reach zero covid with various policies.  It's the false premise that we can eliminate the virus that causes the goalposts to move.  Mitigate yes, eliminate no.
> 
> Queue its the unvaccinated, anti-maskers, and restriction ignoring population's fault that Covid hasn't been eliminated.


You answered your own question.  Mitigation is both possible and desirable.  It does, however, require things like vaccines and masks.   

You want to believe we can mitigate the virus while ignoring our best tools against it.   That doesn’t work.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I’m not sure what you mean by “not very good”.


"Not very good" is in the eye of the beholder, but "not as advertised" is an objective truth. (is objective truth redundant?)


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The hip hop musician was giving his expert opinion on the vaccine.
> 
> Such an opinion is about as useful as hip hop music produced by aerosol scientists.
> 
> Catchy, wasn’t it?


You don't need an expert to have an opinion on how good the vaccine is.  The experts call tell us if it stops death (it's imperfect, but except among those for who it's imperfect 1 shot seems to do the job), stops severe disease (it's imperfect), transmission of illness (problematic), or catching illness (against the omicron, likely poor).  Once we know that everyone can decide for themselves how good the product is, and he's calling you out.  You don't need to be an expert to see that.

"Dr. McKittrick, after very careful consideration, sir, I've come to the conclusion that your new defense system sucks".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You answered your own question.  Mitigation is both possible and desirable.  It does, however, require things like vaccines and masks.
> 
> You want to believe we can mitigate the virus while ignoring our best tools against it.   That doesn’t work.


Again, you fail time and time again to do a cost benefit analysis.  Perpetual masks is not a thing which is desirable and carries enormous costs.  A vaccine that is leaky and requires multiple injections limits its benefit.  Vaccine mandates carry an enormous societal cost.

Mitigation has failed, the omicron is apparently less severe, and the shots do well in holding up still against severe disease.  Time for all of us to catch our colds and take our chances (including you).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Read the polio vaccine history.  It’s not as clear cut as you think.  There were plenty of bumps in the road, even after approval of the first doses.


Hence why the Covid vaccine shouldn't be mandated.  Can you not thread that needle?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Mitigation is both possible and desirable.


But at what cost to everything non-covid?  Your a math teacher, you just can't solve for X you have to solve for Y as well.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> *I’m not sure what you mean by “not very good”*.
> 
> By any measure, they’ve already saved millions of lives.  Can you imagine how many more would have died in the Delta surge if we’d had no vaccine for those over 60?
> 
> Will they have a better vaccine sometime in the future?  Probably.  But that’s different from saying the current one is bad.


I mean they are not very good, the data is there.  Imagine how many more would have lived had the vaccine worked better?  Even so, more people died this year than last.  Why?   don't really know.  I'm sure there is some person out there that would like to pontificate on the matter. 

Big Pharma doen't always get it right.  They get it wrong often actually.  Sometimes they do it deliberately, sometimes they don't.  I like to think that the scientists charged with research/development are trying to do the right thing.  Unfortunately the executive types are 100% in it for the GP. 

Interesting how quick on the draw they've been on Omicron, even though the data is skewing towards sniffles.  It's likley the trend is  true but we'll have to wait and see once it hits the older population, which it will.  They weren't so quick on the draw for Delta, just more boosting of the same stuff. All of a sudden, in spite of initial data coming out of SA, Omicron is the new boogey man.  Don't you worry, Big Pharm to the rescue.  

It is impressive how quick we developed vaccines, no doubt there.  A tremendous amount of your dollars went into it - it's the only way it could  have happened.  If you are not skeptical of what's to come from the ilk of pfizer, AZ, Moderna, etc, then you are very naive.  As long as governments continue to pony up dollars up front for doses, CEOs will continue to give interviews that influence public opinion.  

But go ahead and take your booster for the umpteenth time, just keep the boosters away from your kid.  (If i were giving you unsolicited advice).


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Back in the days when the best vaccines were produced from a melange of attenuated or killed viruses, the antibodies developed in the body came after exposure to a wide range of phenotypes, thus giving a wider foundation to the immunity.  I fear that the current genetic engineering vaccines are too much exactly the same, thus narrowing the effectiveness against new strains that don't depend on the mechanism attacked by the vaccine and resulting antibodies.  Some scientific commentators have suggested that that is how omicron evades the vaccine.  If a new vaccine is developed specifically to attack omicron, that is admitting to some degree that it is essentially a new disease.


You must have talked to the MRNA dudes.  Novelty is the kryptonite of vaccines.  Unfortunately this virus acts so damn weird that we had to go with what we had to try and stop the bleed.  Vaccine re-design is already underway but it may take time.  In the meantime, the strategy is to boost and to HOPE the virus continues to degrade as it mutates.  Sniffles are a good thing.  Hopefully Omicron remains true to initial surveillance and isn't as dangerous to the 65 and older party crowd.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> We could always wait a few more years.  How many would die in that time?


Until they get the vaccine right, more will continue to die.  The vaccinated are dying now, just not a rate that the media deems worthy of reporting.  Not gory enough or valuable to a narrative.  But the vaccinated are dying.  Wonder why that data point isn't being tracked? - Died with/without vaccine?  Or maybe died with/without being boosted.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> "Not very good" is in the eye of the beholder, but "not as advertised" is an objective truth. (is objective truth redundant?)


Damn - you used a better phrase!!


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> In the meantime, the strategy is to boost and to HOPE the virus continues to degrade as it mutates.


HOPE is never a good strategy whether its health policy or business.



what-happened said:


> Damn - you used a better phrase!!


Just semantics.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> And, if 20% of the country refused to get their measles shots, you’d see new measles variants all the time, too.


Wrong… especially if you’re implying that this disease mutations evade vaccinations.

 “Globally, measles remains a leading cause of childhood deaths and an estimated 160 000 children die each year from complications of the disease.”


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> HOPE is never a good strategy whether its health policy or business.


sometimes we don't have a choice.  For some policy questions, the answer to "what's to be done?" really is nothing.  For some business (e.g., Sears, buggy whips), nothing was going to save them.  In this case, we had an imperfect solution....humans are brilliant and we will come up with better ones but it will take time....in the mean time "what's to be done?"....there's not much that can be done that isn't harmful and maybe even counterproductive....it's sucks but that's the reality.


----------



## Desert Hound

And we will see more reflection on this as time goes on.

Bad trend. But a lot of people like dad are/were for increased gov power/surviellance.

The cost we have paid and will pay is too high. Once gov gains power it rarely gives it up.





__





						Who's watching? How governments used the pandemic to normalize surveillance
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I mean they are not very good, the data is there.  Imagine how many more would have lived had the vaccine worked better?  Even so, more people died this year than last.  Why?   don't really know.  I'm sure there is some person out there that would like to pontificate on the matter.
> 
> Big Pharma doen't always get it right.  They get it wrong often actually.  Sometimes they do it deliberately, sometimes they don't.  I like to think that the scientists charged with research/development are trying to do the right thing.  Unfortunately the executive types are 100% in it for the GP.
> 
> Interesting how quick on the draw they've been on Omicron, even though the data is skewing towards sniffles.  It's likley the trend is  true but we'll have to wait and see once it hits the older population, which it will.  They weren't so quick on the draw for Delta, just more boosting of the same stuff. All of a sudden, in spite of initial data coming out of SA, Omicron is the new boogey man.  Don't you worry, Big Pharm to the rescue.
> 
> It is impressive how quick we developed vaccines, no doubt there.  A tremendous amount of your dollars went into it - it's the only way it could  have happened.  If you are not skeptical of what's to come from the ilk of pfizer, AZ, Moderna, etc, then you are very naive.  As long as governments continue to pony up dollars up front for doses, CEOs will continue to give interviews that influence public opinion.
> 
> But go ahead and take your booster for the umpteenth time, just keep the boosters away from your kid.  (If i were giving you unsolicited advice).


The difference between the omicron response and the delta response is, to me, reassuring.   They are different variants with different risks.  And the responses have been quite different, as is appropriate. 

A pharma friend of mine recently toasted omicron.  Not because of profits- alpha and delta got no such honors.  It is because a high transmissibility, low severity variant will do a ton of good if it outcompetes delta and stays low virulence.  Not so cynical as you think.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Wrong… especially if you’re implying that this disease mutations evade vaccinations.
> 
> “Globally, measles remains a leading cause of childhood deaths and an estimated 160 000 children die each year from complications of the disease.”











						Global Measles Outbreaks
					

Global measles outbreaks information (including top 10 countries)




					www.cdc.gov
				




The worst one listed is Nigeria with just over 6k cases.  What’s your source?


----------



## dad4

Found one.









						Measles cases hit 23-year high last year, killing 200,000 as vaccination stalls, WHO says
					

Measles killed an estimated 207,500 people last year after a decade-long failure to reach optimal vaccination coverage, resulting in the highest number of cases for 23 years, the World Health Organization (WHO) and US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) said in a joint report on Thursday.




					news.un.org
				




My error.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> sometimes we don't have a choice.  For some policy questions, the answer to "what's to be done?" really is nothing.  For some business (e.g., Sears, buggy whips), nothing was going to save them.  In this case, we had an imperfect solution....humans are brilliant and we will come up with better ones but it will take time....in the mean time "what's to be done?"....there's not much that can be done that isn't harmful and maybe even counterproductive....it's sucks but that's the reality.


There's not much that can be done policy-wise but for the vast majority of people exercising and getting their weight down to where they aren't obese is absolutely within their control and will improve their health - both mental and physical - and won't just be specific to COVID. Too many people have become plants waiting for the government's water and fertilizer. Think of how many lives we'd save if we mandated acceptable BMI. I bet it's a hell of a lot more than mandating masking. I might need a few more weeks of healthy living to be within the acceptable range, so let's not rush this through.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Global Measles Outbreaks
> 
> 
> Global measles outbreaks information (including top 10 countries)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The worst one listed is Nigeria with just over 6k cases.  What’s your source?











						Factsheet about measles
					

Measles is an acute illness caused by morbillivirus. The disease is transmitted via airborne respiratory droplets, or by direct contact with nasal and throat secretions of infected individuals.




					www.ecdc.europa.eu


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Read the polio vaccine history.  It’s not as clear cut as you think.  There were plenty of bumps in the road, even after approval of the first doses.


IMO the more relevant story for this current pandemic but would be the history of small pox in the New World, from an immunologically naieve population, to different forms of endemic circulation in different groups, to vaccine development, to public health campaigns to what is probably the best example of eradication we currently have.  Jared Diamond tried to tell part of that story, but his representation of the biology (understandably) was not the strong suit and flawed in places.  Writing the story from the perspective of the virus and the virus hunters would make for a good holiday read I think.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> There's not much that can be done policy-wise but for the vast majority of people exercising and getting their weight down to where they aren't obese is absolutely within their control and will improve their health - both mental and physical - and won't just be specific to COVID. Too many people have become plants waiting for the government's water and fertilizer. Think of how many lives we'd save if we mandated acceptable BMI. I bet it's a hell of a lot more than mandating masking. I might need a few more weeks of healthy living to be within the acceptable range, so let's not rush this through.


BTW, anyone that doesn't support this is an anti-healther.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> IMO the more relevant story for this current pandemic but would be the history of small pox in the New World, from an immunologically naieve population, to different forms of endemic circulation in different groups, to vaccine development, to public health campaigns to what is probably the best example of eradication we currently have.  Jared Diamond tried to tell part of that story, but his representation of the biology (understandably) was not the strong suit and flawed in places.  Writing the story from the perspective of the virus and the virus hunters would make for a good holiday read I think.


I'm reading Isaacson's book The Code Breaker right now.  It focuses on the career of Jennifer Doudna, but rolls in everything from Watson's The Double Helix onward.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> I'm reading Isaacson's book The Code Breaker right now.  It focuses on the career of Jennifer Doudna, but rolls in everything from Watson's The Double Helix onward.


Doudna is a top shelf researcher and a great person.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> BTW, anyone that doesn't support this is an anti-healther.


Jordan Klepper has a new video where he interviews So Cal vaccine resisters.  How to avoid covid?  "Live a lifestyle of wellness."  (Apparently, it's a yoga thing)


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> sometimes we don't have a choice.  For some policy questions, the answer to "what's to be done?" really is nothing.  For some business (e.g., Sears, buggy whips), nothing was going to save them.  In this case, we had an imperfect solution....humans are brilliant and we will come up with better ones but it will take time....in the mean time "what's to be done?"....there's not much that can be done that isn't harmful and maybe even counterproductive....it's sucks but that's the reality.


That's why HOPE is bad policy.  We had lockdowns based on the HOPE that it would eliminate or significantly mitigate Covid while knowing for certain that it would negatively impact education, our economy (although in some sectors it had a positive albeit likely temporary impact), mental health, other health conditions, etc.

Unfortunately, politicians don't typically get reelected for not doing something to address short term problems (long term problems are virtually irrelevant to them).  So they implemented policies which were mostly form over substance but have created long-term implications and unfortunately for their reelection hopes, short term problems as well.  Andrew Cuomo is the poster child for how politicians fucked-up the Covid response (with assists to DeBlasio), although that turned out to be the least of his problems.  The Cuomo brothers possess the scary combination of arrogance, incompetence and moral bankruptcy.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Unfortunately this virus acts so damn weird


I view it differently I guess.  The virus is acting pretty much within the parameters of well know biological and epidemiological principles.  The fact that it kicking our ass in certain kinds of ways as it does so does not make it a head scratcher really.  Rather, we should be more like the Elephant's Child, a bit warm but not at all astonished.


----------



## Grace T.

all true....they are monsters.









						Kids growing up in the COVID-19 era are damaged
					

“Kids are resilient.” That’s what we keep being told. That’s what adults tell themselves — and us — so that they can sleep at night.




					nypost.com


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Jordan Klepper has a new video where he interviews So Cal vaccine resisters.  How to avoid covid?  "Live a lifestyle of wellness."  (Apparently, it's a yoga thing)


Is health and wellness less effective than a vaccination for many individuals, particularly the obese?  I don't think we can answer that question either way.  I personally believe health and wellness with a vaccine is the best route.  But to claim one is superior than the other, we really don't have compelling data to support one over the other.


----------



## Brav520

Pfizer CEO says fourth Covid vaccine doses may be needed sooner than expected due to omicron
					

"When we see real-world data, will determine if the omicron is well covered by the third dose and for how long," Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla told CNBC.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> all true....they are monsters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kids growing up in the COVID-19 era are damaged
> 
> 
> “Kids are resilient.” That’s what we keep being told. That’s what adults tell themselves — and us — so that they can sleep at night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Hey, stop being selfish with your own children


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Over time, circumstances change.  We learn more.  New variants evolve.  It is inevitable that recommendations will change, too.
> 
> Did you expect the world to stop for you, to make it easier to keep up?


You anti-science, anti-immune system tyrants have been falling behind since day one while you people keep hyping cases over deaths and comparing this pandemic to the last pandemic that mandated vaccines and locked down economies.  Just in case you were wondering what Nazi germany was like.  You're just one of those ordinary guys that Robert Browning wrote about.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I view it differently I guess.  *The virus is acting pretty much within the parameters of well know biological and epidemiological principles.*  The fact that it kicking our ass in certain kinds of ways as it does so does not make it a head scratcher really.  Rather, we should be more like the Elephant's Child, a bit warm but not at all astonished.


Completely agree -  it's biologically behving like a virus (corona), following the playbook..  Epidmeiologists are behaving like they should (those not on TV).  It's the disease that's making many scratch their heads.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The difference between the omicron response and the delta response is, to me, reassuring.   They are different variants with different risks.  And the responses have been quite different, as is appropriate.
> 
> A pharma friend of mine recently toasted omicron.  Not because of profits- alpha and delta got no such honors.  It is because a high transmissibility, low severity variant will do a ton of good if it outcompetes delta and stays low virulence.  Not so cynical as you think.


It should be reassuring.  Mutations that trend towards the sniffles is a great thing.  Why have the responses been appropriate?  That statement doesn't make sense.  We didn't close borders for Delta, but have for Omicron?  

Omicron will eventually outcompete Delta if more transmissable, just the way it goes.  First we have to get through our Delta surge, which is still happening and is a danger certain demographics  right now.  

What side of the building does your pharma friend work at?  Scientist or seller?  While SA tells everyone to calm down, people aren't dying, Pharma CEOs are stirring the pot, like they always do.    Doses have to be sold before Omicron's true colors are known.  Funny how disease drives an industry to profit.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> BTW, anyone that doesn't support this is an anti-healther.


Bloomberg was onto something when he tried to ban sugary drinks in NYC.  What vision!


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It should be reassuring.  Mutations that trend towards the sniffles is a great thing.  Why have the responses been appropriate?  That statement doesn't make sense.  We didn't close borders for Delta, but have for Omicron?
> 
> Omicron will eventually outcompete Delta if more transmissable, just the way it goes.  First we have to get through our Delta surge, which is still happening and is a danger certain demographics  right now.
> 
> What side of the building does your pharma friend work at?  Scientist or seller?  While SA tells everyone to calm down, people aren't dying, Pharma CEOs are stirring the pot, like they always do.    Doses have to be sold before Omicron's true colors are known.  Funny how disease drives an industry to profit.


I thought you were referring to the pharma decision to move quicker on an omicron-specific booster than on a delta-specific booster.   Reasonable because you need a new vaccine if there is a chance the old one will stop working.

I was not referring to closing borders in response to a variant.  The question there is how much it slows things down, and I don’t have a good way to get my head round that.

Science side.  I can’t tell you what the sales guys think of it.  But they can sell something else.  If covid doesn’t get to me, my blood pressure will, and there’s money in that, too.

 I’m sure the finance guys have the worst angle on it.  Ramping up for a disease that disappears is a sunk cost nightmare for them.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Earlier you admitted that the vaccine results in fewer severe cases and deaths.  Now you call it a failure.  "Screw you and your mandates" is a selfish attitude that we first noticed when you evaded common-sense protocols by taking your child three states away to avoid them.


Not that any state was safe to hear you cowards tell it.  But please continue with your eloquent ignorance.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> It's the disease that's making many scratch their heads.


Yep, and its a good point.  The pathways leading to the hyperinflammation/auto-immune dergulation in COViD19 are pretty clear.  But what constitutes the tipping point beyond which the immune system doesn't turn itself off the way its supposed to, why we see the same type of deregulated circuitry working its way out in a different kind of way in MIS-C, those issues are not clear.  It means that the most important aspects of "risk assessment" as we talk about it rests on a set of parameters that we do not really understand, and which could conceivably change.  Those hypotheticals are powerful pyschological drivers.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> The Cuomo brothers possess the scary combination of arrogance, incompetence and moral bankruptcy.


Sounds like the "qualifications" of modern-day presidential candidates.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> Jordan Klepper has a new video where he interviews So Cal vaccine resisters.  How to avoid covid?  "Live a lifestyle of wellness."  (Apparently, it's a yoga thing)


Baaaaaaaa!


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Sounds like the "qualifications" of modern-day presidential candidates.


Well to their credit, the Cuomo brothers at least know what day it is.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yep, and its a good point.  The pathways leading to the hyperinflammation/auto-immune dergulation in COViD19 are pretty clear.  But what constitutes the tipping point beyond which the immune system doesn't turn itself off the way its supposed to, why we see the same type of deregulated circuitry working its way out in a different kind of way in MIS-C, those issues are not clear.  It means that the most important aspects of "risk assessment" as we talk about it rests on a set of parameters that we do not really understand, and which could conceivably change.  Those hypotheticals are powerful pyschological drivers.


So we mandate vaccinations when we don't understand or lack clarity?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I'm reading Isaacson's book The Code Breaker right now.  It focuses on the career of Jennifer Doudna, but rolls in everything from Watson's The Double Helix onward.


Yeah but you're still just a poster boy for taking away peoples rights to due process and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yep, and its a good point.  The pathways leading to the hyperinflammation/auto-immune dergulation in COViD19 are pretty clear.  But what constitutes the tipping point beyond which the immune system doesn't turn itself off the way its supposed to, why we see the same type of deregulated circuitry working its way out in a different kind of way in MIS-C, those issues are not clear.  It means that the most important aspects of "risk assessment" as we talk about it rests on a set of parameters that we do not really understand, and which could conceivably change.  Those hypotheticals are powerful pyschological drivers.


Weird in so many ways.  The virus's  affinity for body fat is interesting  and may explain a bunch of things.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I thought you were referring to the pharma decision to move quicker on an omicron-specific booster than on a delta-specific booster.   Reasonable because you need a new vaccine if there is a chance the old one will stop working.
> 
> I was not referring to closing borders in response to a variant.  The question there is how much it slows things down, and I don’t have a good way to get my head round that.
> 
> Science side.  I can’t tell you what the sales guys think of it.  But they can sell something else.  If covid doesn’t get to me, my blood pressure will, and there’s money in that, too.
> 
> I’m sure the finance guys have the worst angle on it.  Ramping up for a disease that disappears is a sunk cost nightmare for them.


Sellers are waiting for the pills, vaccines don't have to be sold, they've been bougth and paid for using tax payer dollars.

We need a new vaccine period.  Hoping they are working on that..  These don't work  as advertised - *shout out to @watfly for the contribution to my lexicon.*


----------



## crush

The mask these days are starting to look creepy!!!









						AWKWARD!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Come on man, what is this that were all watching?  









						You're an idiot, Joe...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Well to their credit, the Cuomo brothers at least know what day it is.



Joe Biden reads instruction off teleprompter:

"End of message."


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Fuck you espola.  You are human garbage no better than Eotl.


Maybe you shouldn’t bring things in here you don’t want discussed?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> We’ll he did drag us back to summer 2020.  And in the end everything that drove us to Utah (the school closures, beach closings, outdoor masks, suspending sports) turned out to be unscientific guess work JUST LIKE I WAS SAYING. It wasn’t exactly their most shinning moment and it drives them insane they were wrong about everything.


You always need to throw a not so humble brag in.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> What’s not normal in the whole history of western civilization is a bunch of aged members of a selfish generation going into a panic for their own lives and putting measures (most of which don’t work) on children to protect them.  A side effect of this is that people are effectively agreeing to authoritarianism and vast restraints on their freedom for a disease where they ifr now stands at .1% and for measures the vast majority of which do nothing to actually stop the spread of disease
> 
> fify asshole.


Oh boo hoo.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I’m not the fool here. You are and have been repeatedly shown to be. A fool who can’t follow along conversations, someone whose repeatedly behaved like an ass, and now an immoral piece of garbage. Whose been right? Me. Whose been wrong? You. Eat on that.  Your only real contribution has been comedy and our laughing at you


More self declared victories, hilarious.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Oh boo hoo.


Hey another troll's come out.  This ones the baby one.



Hüsker Dü said:


> You always need to throw a not so humble brag in.


I'll take the not so humble criticism, but it's justified.  I was right.  Your allies and you were wrong.  How about being a little humble and admitting it?  No...I thought so.  I'll take being prideful and right, over arrogant, wrong and being an ass any day.


Hüsker Dü said:


> More self declared victories, hilarious.


The sad thing about you is even with all his limitations, he's still better at it than you.


Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe you shouldn’t bring things in here you don’t want discussed?


Discussion is one thing.  I resent the implication though I somehow did something wrong saving my kid's mental sanity and quite possibly his life.  You have a problem with that, then fuck you too, ass.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe you shouldn’t bring things in here you don’t want discussed?


It was a different topic:  What can we do to help our kids through this.  Most of us would make a similar exception for our own kids, if we had to.

The comment was out of bounds.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Why do you think DTaP has five shots?  Those boosters fade, too.  And, if 20% of the country refused to get their measles shots, you’d see new measles variants all the time, too.
> 
> I’m used to little kids whining about having to go in for their booster shots.  It’s disgraceful that so many adults are doing the same.


This is the crybaby, entitled, Karen generation. This forum is full of them.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> This is the crybaby, entitled, Karen generation. This forum is full of them.


I assume you are a boomer?  Talk about an entitled, selfish generation, that torched everything from the yuppie 80s, the government budget, climate change, and now demanding kids carrying your weight to protect you from COVID.  Far from the greatest generation, after this the boomers will be remembered as the worst, and the ones most responsible for torching the country.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> This is the crybaby, entitled, Karen generation. This forum is full of them.


You coming out as a female ?

You're in step with the current administration.


----------



## thirteenknots

Grace T. said:


> I assume you are a boomer?  Talk about an entitled, selfish generation, that torched everything from the yuppie 80s, the government budget, climate change, and now demanding kids carrying your weight to protect you from COVID.  Far from the greatest generation, after this the boomers will be remembered as the worst, and the ones most responsible for torching the country.


Only his kind and the ones ten years older
represented by Adam Espola Schiff.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I assume you are a boomer?  Talk about an entitled, selfish generation, that torched everything from the yuppie 80s, the government budget, climate change, and now demanding kids carrying your weight to protect you from COVID.  Far from the greatest generation, after this the boomers will be remembered as the worst, and the ones most responsible for torching the country.


Let it all out.  It will just eat you up if you try to contain it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Let it all out.  It will just eat you up if you try to contain it.


Eats you up doesn't it that you can't hold a candle to the greatest generation and are holding little kids in front of you like a human shield,right?  Proud of yourself?  Yeah, thought so.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Bloomberg was onto something when he tried to ban sugary drinks in NYC.  What vision!


And they whined about Mrs Obama’s healthy diet suggestions . . .


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Let it all out.  It will just eat you up if you try to contain it.


I know, right?! Like… what happened to this place?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Hey another troll's come out.  This ones the baby one.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take the not so humble criticism, but it's justified.  I was right.  Your allies and you were wrong.  How about being a little humble and admitting it?  No...I thought so.  I'll take being prideful and right, over arrogant, wrong and being an ass any day.
> 
> 
> The sad thing about you is even with all his limitations, he's still better at it than you.
> 
> 
> Discussion is one thing.  I resent the implication though I somehow did something wrong saving my kid's mental sanity and quite possibly his life.  You have a problem with that, then fuck you too, ass.


You seem a bit on edge today, just saying. Don’t troll if you don’t want to be trolled or just roll with it and let it be.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> It was a different topic:  What can we do to help our kids through this.  Most of us would make a similar exception for our own kids, if we had to.
> 
> The comment was out of bounds.


The comment was in reference to her actions not anything detrimental about her kid(s).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Eats you up doesn't it that you can't hold a candle to the greatest generation and are holding little kids in front of you like a human shield,right?  Proud of yourself?  Yeah, thought so.


The boomers I remember were in the front lines of the civil rights movement, marched and protested and took political action to end an unjust war, forced a corrupt President out of office, and started the environmental movement enshrined in Earth Day.  I think you're thinking of Gen X.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I assume you are a boomer?  Talk about an entitled, selfish generation, that torched everything from the yuppie 80s, the government budget, climate change, and now demanding kids carrying your weight to protect you from COVID.  Far from the greatest generation, after this the boomers will be remembered as the worst, and the ones most responsible for torching the country.


Demanding kids carry the weight?

No.  We are asking the remaining adults to finally start carrying their fair share.  

Stop hiding behind kids.  The problem is unvaccinated, unmasked *adults* going to bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, and other high. Risk indoor locations.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I assume you are a boomer?  Talk about an entitled, selfish generation, that torched everything from the yuppie 80s, the government budget, climate change, and now demanding kids carrying your weight to protect you from COVID.  Far from the greatest generation, after this the boomers will be remembered as the worst, and the ones most responsible for torching the country.


So everyone of a certain age/generation is liable for things you want to depict as deplorable? Interesting catch 22 you have yourself trapped in.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> I know, right?! Like… what happened to this place?
> 
> View attachment 12327


I never went to that one.  I wasted some time in the Pomerada Club (the only bar I have ever been thrown out of) at Old Stone Lodge and the Poway Mine Co. before it changed names several times and burned down/rebuilt at least once.  The bartender at Mine Co. was an old Navy buddy of mine.  I could order 2 margaritas for me and my date, and he would somehow keep our glasses full all night by giving us the remnants from making "too much" on every margarita ordered the rest of the night.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> Eats you up doesn't it that you can't hold a candle to the greatest generation and are holding little kids in front of you like a human shield,right?  Proud of yourself?  Yeah, thought so.


Every generation rebels against their elders in some form or another… 



espola said:


> The boomers I remember were in the front lines of the civil rights movement, marched and protested and took political action to end an unjust war, forced a corrupt President out of office, and started the environmental movement enshrined in Earth Day.  I think you're thinking of Gen X.


Gen X would like to have a word with you about your generalizations.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Every generation rebels against their elders in some form or another…
> 
> 
> 
> Gen X would like to have a word with you about your generalizations.


I'd like to have a word with someone about absurd generalizations in the first place.  Criticizing a group of people because of the actions of a few, or, inversely, criticizing a person because he is a member of a group because of an accident of birth is what is usually called prejudice.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> The boomers I remember were in the front lines of the civil rights movement, marched and protested and took political action to end an unjust war, forced a corrupt President out of office, and started the environmental movement enshrined in Earth Day.  I think you're thinking of Gen X.


I forgot to mention the music.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You seem a bit on edge today, just saying. Don’t troll if you don’t want to be trolled or just roll with it and let it be.


Says the troll.  Again, espola does it better than you.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So everyone of a certain age/generation is liable for things you want to depict as deplorable? Interesting catch 22 you have yourself trapped in.


Hey you were the one that brought up generations so way to hang yourself up by your own petard.  I'm just saying as far as generations go, the one that shouldn't criticize is the one that's holding up the children as shields in front of them because they are terrified.  Not everyone, but if you are going to criticize, well then.....


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Stop hiding behind kids.  The problem is unvaccinated, unmasked *adults*


I know you were pro kids for in-person school before other in-person events (restaurants, gyms, bars, etc.).

That said, if the problem is the adults, why are we still restricting the kids in any form?.. for the adults hiding behind the kids in another way then what you meant?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Demanding kids carry the weight?
> 
> No.  We are asking the remaining adults to finally start carrying their fair share.
> 
> Stop hiding behind kids.  The problem is unvaccinated, unmasked *adults* going to bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, and other high. Risk indoor locations.


The kids were the ones deprived of schools.   The kids were the ones deprived of sports.  The kids had their playgrounds shut down while the adults went skiing.  The kids are the ones forced to wear masks all days while adults sit at bars and restaurants without their masks neck to each other.   Kids as young as 2 are forced to wear masks even though Europe doesn't do that.  Kids with autism, who are deaf, or with disabilities are forced into the undeniable cruelty of mask wearing.  And adults are pushing vaccines on kids who are a low risk group, even though the vaccines don't hold up as well with transmission. I know you flipped on the kids earlier than most.  Kuddos and credit for that..but there's no question the burden of this was forced on kids


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Hey you were the one that brought up generations so way to hang yourself up by your own petard.  I'm just saying as far as generations go, the one that shouldn't criticize is the one that's holding up the children as shields in front of them because they are terrified.  Not everyone, but if you are going to criticize, well then.....


Says the poster holding up the children as shields in front of them to excuse their actions that circumvent attempts to “lessen the curve” . . . and if you see yourself in the generational description I laid out that is on you. I merely stated what seems to be a trend without saying you were guilty. You are the one that labeled me in the way you felt you wanted to.
You call troll, but you are the biggest troll in here right now. We are all trolling as I have said before, but some of us realize that. You seem to think you have some higher purpose in here as you call names and post garbage info.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Says the poster holding up the children as shields in front of them to excuse their actions that circumvent attempts to “lessen the curve” . . . and if you see yourself in the generational description I laid out that is on you. I merely stated what seems to be a trend without saying you were guilty. You are the one that labeled me in the way you felt you wanted to.
> You call troll, but you are the biggest troll in here right now. We are all trolling as I have said before, but some of us realize that. You seem to think you have some higher purpose in here as you call names and post garbage info.


Garbage!


----------



## crush

More garbage......

*CNBC's Jim Cramer gushes over economy as 'strongest... I have ever seen': 'A marvel to behold'*

"To me, we have the strongest economy perhaps I have ever seen," Cramer told viewers on Thursday during his Investment Club Talk. "Did you see that number this morning, that unemployment number? It's the best in 60 years! Best since 69!" 

"We have all spotted the ‘Help Wanted’ signs, the housing and apartment shortages, the tremendous demand for goods and services- a marvel to behold," Cramer said. "Oh, people are confident about their jobs. I say fantastic. And the ability [they] can get better ones if they want to. They're spending more than I've ever seen but they're doing it with cash, not with credit. They're doing so in a Roaring Twenty's style!"


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> More garbage......
> 
> *CNBC's Jim Cramer gushes over economy as 'strongest... I have ever seen': 'A marvel to behold'*
> 
> "To me, we have the strongest economy perhaps I have ever seen," Cramer told viewers on Thursday during his Investment Club Talk. "Did you see that number this morning, that unemployment number? It's the best in 60 years! Best since 69!"
> 
> "We have all spotted the ‘Help Wanted’ signs, the housing and apartment shortages, the tremendous demand for goods and services- a marvel to behold," Cramer said. "Oh, people are confident about their jobs. I say fantastic. And the ability [they] can get better ones if they want to. They're spending more than I've ever seen but they're doing it with cash, not with credit. They're doing so in a Roaring Twenty's style!"


Some news in @ReliableSources: Senior White House and admin officials have been holding briefings with major newsrooms over past week as they try to reshape economic coverage. cnn.it/3rJo9zo



			https://view.newsletters.cnn.com/messages/16388473618894d60cc03816c/raw?utm_term=16388473618894d60cc03816c&utm_source=cnn_Reliable+Sources+-+December+6,+2021&utm_medium=email&bt_ee=O54bZGFbM3aVNTxtxWGCPc25bBuY3hp3EjrEmc%2BpMH22EOPnwXiCqFkTEvS3cR4mWrajVqSEdKUyvnLcdUIFOg%3D%3D&bt_ts=1638847361891


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> More garbage......
> 
> *CNBC's Jim Cramer gushes over economy as 'strongest... I have ever seen': 'A marvel to behold'*
> 
> "To me, we have the strongest economy perhaps I have ever seen," Cramer told viewers on Thursday during his Investment Club Talk. "Did you see that number this morning, that unemployment number? It's the best in 60 years! Best since 69!"
> 
> "We have all spotted the ‘Help Wanted’ signs, the housing and apartment shortages, the tremendous demand for goods and services- a marvel to behold," Cramer said. "Oh, people are confident about their jobs. I say fantastic. And the ability [they] can get better ones if they want to. They're spending more than I've ever seen but they're doing it with cash, not with credit. They're doing so in a Roaring Twenty's style!"











						Consumer prices rose by 6.8 percent in November, as inflation hits highest pace since 1982
					

Rising prices are already a drag on family budgets — and could hit harder once the child tax credit comes to an end.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## crush

Look at the new "Guardian of Peace & Security" statue for the UN in NY.  Now go read Daniel 7:1-14 & Rev. 13:1-through however long you want read into things that seem interesting and make head scratch.  Light or Dark; you decide.  The fact is, they have to show their true self and boy do they, through numbers and symbolism.  It's a part of the rules in the game were all playing.  The Game Of Choice.  Right or wrong.  Good or Bad.  Lie or truth.  Honest or cheat.  Hide or expose.  Stay thirsty for the truth my fellow Americans


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Says the poster holding up the children as shields in front of them to excuse their actions that circumvent attempts to “lessen the curve” . . . and if you see yourself in the generational description I laid out that is on you. I merely stated what seems to be a trend without saying you were guilty. You are the one that labeled me in the way you felt you wanted to.
> You call troll, but you are the biggest troll in here right now. We are all trolling as I have said before, but some of us realize that. You seem to think you have some higher purpose in here as you call names and post garbage info.


That’s a real poor attempt at some first class gaslighting buddy.  A troll calling the troll smasher a troll. Cute but as I said before espola does it better. And when you fight for your own kids you are using them as shields (way to ape me…remind us again what kids you have playing soccer???)

here’s the difference between us: my rule is rock solid…I never initiate an attack…I only respond like to like. And as to info…yeah I know…the covidians only like experts that confirm their own world views. I got it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I forgot to mention the music.


Don’t, please!


----------



## crush

Delta + Omicron=?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That’s a real poor attempt at some first class gaslighting buddy.  A troll calling the troll smasher a troll. Cute but as I said before espola does it better. And when you fight for your own kids you are using them as shields (way to ape me…remind us again what kids you have playing soccer???)
> 
> here’s the difference between us: my rule is rock solid…I never initiate an attack…I only respond like to like. And as to info…yeah I know…the covidians only like experts that confirm their own world views. I got it.


Grace, there are not a lot of experts who agree with your world view:

Masks don’t do anything.  Virus gonna virus, and it’s all baked in, so there is no point in trying to reduce the spread of the virus.

These are not mainstream views.  These are not fringe scientific views.  

These are social media rants from people who dislike having restrictions.  The logic is no deeper than “I like restaurants, therefore restaurants can’t be the problem.”

Then you search the literature for anything which can be represented or misrepresented as supporting the original rant.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Delta + Omicron=?
> 
> 
> View attachment 12330
> 
> View attachment 12331


Has Alec Baldwin still killed more people than Omicron has in US?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> And they whined about Mrs Obama’s healthy diet suggestions . . .


Imagine the headline - The Obamas avert future pandemic tied to obesity.   The reality is there is too much money in unhealthy eating.  Fast food and Pharma are killing people at a high rate.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Has Alec Baldwin still killed more people than Omicron has in US?


I have no idea.  Check this fact out.  It took 666 days to go from Delta to Omicron.  No joke.  It will be their down fall.  Jan 30, 2020-Nov 26, 2021.  They have to show their cards for all to see and then for all to decide which side of history they would like to stand for.  The "Eye" is watching.  Never in the history of the world have we lived as such a time as this.  EVERYONE is compromised.  Nothing is hidden, nothing!!!  Fess up and come clean and change for the good or hide and divide and hate people.  It's insane yet a wild roller coaster of emotion.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, there are not a lot of experts who agree with your world view:
> 
> Masks don’t do anything.  Virus gonna virus, and it’s all baked in, so there is no point in trying to reduce the spread of the virus.
> 
> These are not mainstream views.  These are not fringe scientific views.
> 
> These are social media rants from people who dislike having restrictions.  The logic is no deeper than “I like restaurants, therefore restaurants can’t be the problem.”
> 
> Then you search the literature for anything which can be represented or misrepresented as supporting the original rant.


1. Again misleading on my position
2. I’ve posted a ton of experts here. Even the Gbd are experts
3. Most of even the European establishment experts don’t agree with vaccinating and masking kids. On those you are in the minority
4. But we know your Schtick: you support the establishmentarian experts that agree with you and your religion…you declare those that don’t heretics and not real experts.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. Again misleading on my position
> 2. I’ve posted a ton of experts here. Even the Gbd are experts
> 3. Most of even the European establishment experts don’t agree with vaccinating and masking kids. On those you are in the minority
> 4. But we know your Schtick: you support the establishmentarian experts that agree with you and your religion…you declare those that don’t heretics and not real experts.


Bingo!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Hmmm…inflation at record numbers in November and the ds on the generic ballot under 10 points (the largest spread since 1994). The nose dive gets baked in by March/April at the latest. at that point retirements take hold, primaries are underway, money has been allocated, most trends set barring a major unexpected event.  The political trends from Virginia are accelerating and the omicron and infrastructure spend are only going to accelerate the economic issue. Trump probably did himself a favor by losing. Whoever was in charge of this phase of covid (largely through factors beyond their control) was going to get blasted into the wilderness.  politically the ds are in a hard place: there’s still a very vocal segment that leans into zero covid (at least in the back of their mind, however eventually…including some influential groups like teachers unions and lefty journos) and there’s no way to jettison them without undermining the base. Rock/hard place.  The silver lining is there is an off ramp:  if the ds get slaughtered and go into the wilderness for 4 years (perhaps at this point even a generation) covid ends. The ds silver lining is that barring a major health incident, at this point we are looking at trump pulling a Grover Cleveland and its becoming almost inevitable.


----------



## whatithink

Enough of the virus, for the kids


----------



## crush

The last two years have been so hard on many:  Poor mom & pop small business folks and self employed folks ((critical thinkers and most likely conservative and won't take jab)) who took a big hit and lost everything because of many factors the last two years.  These are the same people who are now paying high price inflation for basics like food and gas.  These mother assholes want us to kneel and beg for a job and the right to be normal asses.  Good luck finding a place to rent.  Rent is up 25% and mom & pop have no way to make a buck unless they go work at one big box retail with a "help wanted" signs down the street.  The rich and those who can ride this out really dont give a shit for other people because their swimming in the same shit and dont give a shit.  "With the measure you sure against other humans, that measure will be used against you."  TGIFF!!!

*US inflation surges to 39-year high as consumer prices soar*
*It was the fastest pace in nearly four decades*


----------



## crush

whatithink said:


> Enough of the virus, for the kids
> 
> View attachment 12334


Espola thinks that since he had to hide under his desk from nukes in grade school and had to stay on a ship in his teen years, that our kids are big babies.


----------



## crush

Breaking ... Lisa Hanson, a cafe owner in Minnesota, has been sentenced to 90 days in jail and ordered to pay a $1,000 fine after she continued operating her cafe in defiance of the governor’s 2020 lockdowns.

“You were a public risk because you kept your business open,” the judge said.

- Yet Walmart, Target and every big corporation (who donates big money to Politicians) were allowed to stay open. Banana Republic !!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. Again misleading on my position
> 2. I’ve posted a ton of experts here. Even the Gbd are experts
> 3. Most of even the European establishment experts don’t agree with vaccinating and masking kids. On those you are in the minority
> 4. But we know your Schtick: you support the establishmentarian experts that agree with you and your religion…you declare those that don’t heretics and not real experts.


Misleading?  Those were quotes.

Not one time quotes, either.  Those were things you repeated several times each.

If you don’t mean to say something, don’t say it.


----------



## crush

*Q Drops- 3 Year Delta to the day!!!*

Q Drop 2571 Dec 10, 2018 1:58:22 PM EST 

PUBLIC AWAKENING = GAME OVER 
Q

Q Drop 2573 Dec 10, 2018 2:47:08 PM EST

"The times are too grave, the challenge too urgent, and the stakes too high — to permit the customary passions of political debate. We are not here to curse the darkness, but to light the candle that can guide us through that darkness to a safe and sane future." –JFK 
Q


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Misleading?  Those were quotes.
> 
> Not one time quotes, either.  Those were things you repeated several times each.
> 
> If you don’t mean to say something, don’t say it.


no you are just out and out lying and/or taking statements out of context.  

you know my position on masks.  I've repeated it several times.  I think masks help on a micro level, particularly with limited time exposures. on a macro level I think there are too many factors that degrade their usefulness (people not wearing them properly, build up of viruses on the surface, poor cloth masks, repeated use of masks, the fact most transmissions are at home or at prolonged exposures like work).  I think on a macro basis indoor masking (outdoor masking I've said was foolish since March 2020) helped a little bit against the prime (I pinned the number at probably a 15% reduction in overall cases), degrading against the alpha, doesn't do much against the delta.  I thought it was foolish for the government to rely on cloth masks, gaiters and bandanas initially and should have put money into producing N95s (a position you came around to agree with).

As to virus is going to virus, I told you that with the exception of vaccines, the NPIs didn't do much (a position which has been upheld in several studies and expert conclusions which you dismiss because they run against your dogma) and that the economy couldn't be held in lockdown forever without collapsing.  As to vaccines, I've been very supportive (despite the problems), initially supported a state/employer/school mandate (though I admit lukewarmly) but reversed when the vaccines were shown not as advertised.  I said there was not much any of this (short of a bullet proof vaccine) could do to control the virus, and lo and behold 2 years later no country on earth (with the exception of Japan where something weird is going on) and Taiwan (which has kept out the delta) has been able to do it, not even your preferred authoritarian solution of Oz, NZ and (at least not perfectly) China.  

It's a sure fire sign you are losing the argument when you have to resort to mischaracterizing your opponents statements and/or outright out and out lying.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Espola thinks that since he had to hide under his desk from nukes in grade school and had to stay on a ship in his teen years, that our kids are big babies.


double vexed and boosted, for a virus where what , 99% survive ( maybe higher). Then these people want everyone else to do the same so that they feel SAFE....Yeah, maybe the ESPOLAs of the world are the ones with the serious problems


----------



## Grace T.

True...the red line for the public is 4 shots...they are never going to get the public on board with it.  But mandating boosters is a very heavy lift.  Nice of the Biden admin BTW, to by pass the expert panel on boosters for 16-17 year olds...guess they are getting tired of the critiques coming out of the panels.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## Brav520

**vaxxed **( I should invest in this premium membership to edit)


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> double vexed and boosted, for a virus where what , 99% survive ( maybe higher). Then these people want everyone else to do the same so that they feel SAFE....Yeah, maybe the ESPOLAs of the world are the ones with the serious problems


The light will shine over the darkness.  You can;t have darkness without the light.  They both go together.  I used to yell and get all mad at my darkness side that I like to call my, "shadow or ego."  I call my shadow 'Karl."  You can't love others until you love yourself first and that is 100% forgiving Karl for all his wrongs.  You must blame someone and Karl is the one who did it.  I love him now for taking the blame and so does my wife.  Where crush goes, Karl comes along, always   The key to life is to live with your shadow and be 100% honest about your shadow.  Some have darker shadows then others and thats all because of how they were treated as kids.  God wanted us to eat of the tree of Right and WRONG.  It was never about picking one over the other.  It's learning to forgive the WRONG you have done so you can makes things RIGHT.   WHO wants to do wrong because he has that choice as well.  I tell people all the time the right thing to do is usually the hardest thing to do.  If you find yourself making "easy" money off this heist that some say is the, "crime of the century" well then go right ahead and feel good about that if you want.  If you find this to be the hardest time ever in your life, well then your on target and equality and abundance will be here sooner rather then later.  I promise!!!  Don't take the bait and please dont smash and destroy other people lives because of the hate and evil in your soul!!!!


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> **vaxxed **( I should invest in this premium membership to edit)


Best $15 money can buy.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Best $15 money can buy.


decided to take kids to see Santa tomorrow based solely off an ad from this site. I think Dom gets a kick back for me clicking on that ad?

Will I miss out if I go ad free?


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> decided to take kids to see Santa tomorrow based solely off an ad from this site. I think Dom gets a kick back for me clicking on that ad?
> 
> Will I miss out if I go ad free?


I only talking about editing value brother.  I went to Dicks from a add and soccer loco adds.  I find the editing amazing.  I think fast in my brain and than right what I feel like.  Me righting and spelling is not well.  Espola used to mock me and call me moron for spelling mistakes back few years ago.  I learning gooder each day.  Today, the fellas let me slide with poor writing skillz.  I spell wards as I feel them to bee.  U no what eye mein?


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like LAUSD blinked and is discussing delaying the vaccine mandate to 2022.  That's pretty funny.  so far no exemption for athletics....if you want to play they still require the shot.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> The boomers I remember were in the front lines of the civil rights movement, marched and protested and took political action to end an unjust war, forced a corrupt President out of office, and started the environmental movement enshrined in Earth Day.  I think you're thinking of Gen X.


Looky Adam Espola Schiff, a fluffy sock.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> no you are just out and out lying and/or taking statements out of context.
> 
> you know my position on masks.  I've repeated it several times.  I think masks help on a micro level, particularly with limited time exposures. on a macro level I think there are too many factors that degrade their usefulness (people not wearing them properly, build up of viruses on the surface, poor cloth masks, repeated use of masks, the fact most transmissions are at home or at prolonged exposures like work).  I think on a macro basis indoor masking (outdoor masking I've said was foolish since March 2020) helped a little bit against the prime (I pinned the number at probably a 15% reduction in overall cases), degrading against the alpha, doesn't do much against the delta.  I thought it was foolish for the government to rely on cloth masks, gaiters and bandanas initially and should have put money into producing N95s (a position you came around to agree with).
> 
> As to virus is going to virus, I told you that with the exception of vaccines, the NPIs didn't do much (a position which has been upheld in several studies and expert conclusions which you dismiss because they run against your dogma) and that the economy couldn't be held in lockdown forever without collapsing.  As to vaccines, I've been very supportive (despite the problems), initially supported a state/employer/school mandate (though I admit lukewarmly) but reversed when the vaccines were shown not as advertised.  I said there was not much any of this (short of a bullet proof vaccine) could do to control the virus, and lo and behold 2 years later no country on earth (with the exception of Japan where something weird is going on) and Taiwan (which has kept out the delta) has been able to do it, not even your preferred authoritarian solution of Oz, NZ and (at least not perfectly) China.
> 
> It's a sure fire sign you are losing the argument when you have to resort to mischaracterizing your opponents statements and/or outright out and out lying.


Your macro/macro distinction is a great example of where you’ve gone off the rails.  It’s not even clear.  To the extent that it is clear, you have it backwards.

You want to think of the mask as PPE, within a fixed risk environment.  That is, does the mask change my odds of contamination, given some pre-determined series of future exposures.  (single exposure is micro, the whole series is macro.).  For a long enough predetermined series of exposures, any non-zero risk is equivalent.  

Works great for individuals.  You can’t do population level projections this way.   By assuming a fixed environment, you are holding constant the exact thing you are trying to measure.  It’s no surprise you get “no change” as your answer.  It’s what you assumed from the start.

The normal view is that you have to view any change as something which might affect future case counts and thus also affects future exposures.  This makes the whole thing either a system of differential equations (the easy case) or a martingale / Markov process (the hard case).  

From there, a 10% change to transmission is suddenly a big deal, for the same reason that a 10% weekly inflation rate is a big deal.  The one week change is small, but the 6 month change is huge.   But, if you start off by assuming fixed prices ( or a fixed exposure profile ), you will never understand it.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Your macro/macro distinction is a great example of where you’ve gone off the rails.  It’s not even clear.  To the extent that it is clear, you have it backwards.
> 
> You want to think of the mask as PPE, within a fixed risk environment.  That is, does the mask change my odds of contamination, given some pre-determined series of future exposures.  (single exposure is micro, the whole series is macro.).  For a long enough predetermined series of exposures, any non-zero risk is equivalent.
> 
> Works great for individuals.  You can’t do population level projections this way.   By assuming a fixed environment, you are holding constant the exact thing you are trying to measure.  It’s no surprise you get “no change” as your answer.  It’s what you assumed from the start.
> 
> The normal view is that you have to view any change as something which might affect future case counts and thus also affects future exposures.  This makes the whole thing either a system of differential equations (the easy case) or a martingale / Markov process (the hard case).
> 
> From there, a 10% change to transmission is suddenly a big deal, for the same reason that a 10% weekly inflation rate is a big deal.  The one week change is small, but the 6 month change is huge.   But, if you start off by assuming fixed prices ( or a fixed exposure profile ), you will never understand it.


----------



## Grace T.

A truly insightful piece which includes a critique from the historical perspective of shifts in scientific paradigms.  A political centrist (hey he's in good company) who feels lost among the new paradigm.









						The agony of the anti-lockdown centrists
					

The public figures we trusted have a embraced a disturbing new normal




					unherd.com


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A truly insightful piece which includes a critique from the historical perspective of shifts in scientific paradigms.  A political centrist (hey he's in good company) who feels lost among the new paradigm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The agony of the anti-lockdown centrists
> 
> 
> The public figures we trusted have a embraced a disturbing new normal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


Science has become a religion, or should I say scientists and experts have created a religion, strike that, they've created a cult where your shunned and silenced if you disagree, or even simply question.


----------



## crush

t just said this about Bibi Netanyahu;  "Fuck Him" in interview about the election and lack of loyalty!  Damn, the gloves are now coming off.  Jeffrey's last words spoken to his old pal Bill was, "Fuck off Bill."  These are the fucking facts folks.  WHO do you follow today?  Are you following a party?  Ideology?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Science has become a religion, or should I say scientists and experts have created a religion, strike that, they've created a cult where your shunned and silenced if you disagree, or even simply question.


Questioning is the essence of science.  You are describing cultism.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your macro/macro distinction is a great example of where you’ve gone off the rails.  It’s not even clear.  To the extent that it is clear, you have it backwards.
> 
> You want to think of the mask as PPE, within a fixed risk environment.  That is, does the mask change my odds of contamination, given some pre-determined series of future exposures.  (single exposure is micro, the whole series is macro.).  For a long enough predetermined series of exposures, any non-zero risk is equivalent.
> 
> Works great for individuals.  You can’t do population level projections this way.   By assuming a fixed environment, you are holding constant the exact thing you are trying to measure.  It’s no surprise you get “no change” as your answer.  It’s what you assumed from the start.
> 
> The normal view is that you have to view any change as something which might affect future case counts and thus also affects future exposures.  This makes the whole thing either a system of differential equations (the easy case) or a martingale / Markov process (the hard case).
> 
> From there, a 10% change to transmission is suddenly a big deal, for the same reason that a 10% weekly inflation rate is a big deal.  The one week change is small, but the 6 month change is huge.   But, if you start off by assuming fixed prices ( or a fixed exposure profile ), you will never understand it.


your lack of economic training is why you don't see it, and you've just laid it out perfect.  One of the problems in the shift from micro-macro analysis is that of the scaling problem.  An entire month is devoted to the scaling problem in economics 202.  For example, one you see in education is Finnish schools have better results, if we adopt the Finnish school system we'll have great results, let's adopt the Finnish school system.  the problem fails to account that when you shift a problem from a small, homogenous society with a particular welfare system and environment, to a transcontinental one, other variables in the equal change.  Similar with "pilot programs" in industries, whether the post office or UBI or pizza delivery.  So, while a mask may prevent an exposure from one person to another (in say a dummy test or in a supermarket exchange) when you scale it up to a population level it won't work as well because errors and other variable begin to creep in.  The one you most often overlooked (which you yourself admitted) is that masks don't prevent anything in home transmissions, which is the biggest source of transmission.  Another one is work: while 2 people wearing a mask may prevent spread in a quick exchange with a supermarket cashier, it's not going to stop the fast food worker working hours on end next to another co-worker (and we KNOW this from mask studies done early on by the German health authorities in their meat process plants and car manufacturing factories).  Other errors creep in too: people don't wear masks properly especially over long periods of time, people are sick so they think going out with a mask is o.k. because others are protected, germs build up on masks, masks get worn down in the wash.  So if your dummies show a 10% potential change in transmission, that's not going to scale up to 10% change in the overall population or to R.

What's truly astounding is that your faith is blinding you to the fact that you've pointed out yourself exactly the reason why masks are failing on a macro basis all over the world (and we've seen this very clearly now whether the Texas county mask study, or comparing England and Scotland or comparing Los Angeles and Orange County)....masks, particularly with the Delta, have made very very little difference.  I know you have to done anything and everything to preserve your sacred talisman.  You cannot abide the possibility that you might actually be wrong and your talisman may actually not be that effective.  But it is the sad reality of things.  And that fact that you YOURSELF have shown this, and can't see it, would be really quite funny, if it wasn't so sad.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Questioning is the essence of science.  You are describing cultism.


Fuck you Espola.  Everyone is using the F word now so I will as well.  It's not my style but words do have meaning.  Thanks for nothing you fucker!!!


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Science has become a religion, or should I say scientists and experts have created a religion, strike that, they've created a cult where your shunned and silenced if you disagree, or even simply question.


The article is really good at pointing at why.  it's a paradigm shift akin to shifting away from heliocentrism or to evolution or to Newtonian and away from Aristotilian physics.  it makes the good point that scientists have always treated scientists in the other paradigm as heretics (he's arguing, in effect, science has always been tainted by religion). The issue is that it's usually been held that science always moves forward...the author points out that's not always the case, and we who have been saying science is "questioning" are actually wrong....every day science usually works to bolster the paradigm and paradigm shifting questioning is actually quite rare.  It's an insightful way of looking at it....i hadn't really seen it until now.....it certainly does explain dad4 and his vehemence in the face of all the repeated and frequent failures of his paradigm.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Science has become a religion, or should I say scientists and experts have created a religion, strike that, they've created a cult where your shunned and silenced if you disagree, or even simply question.


The whole point is on what grounds do you disagree. If it is based on social media memes, what some media figure “feels” is happening or just your gut (based off the aforementioned no doubt) yes your opinion is ignored. You have the right to disagree because you “feel” like doing so, but if it’s not researched and peer reviewed it’s meaningless.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> The whole point is on what grounds do you disagree. If it is based on social media memes, what some media figure “feels” is happening or just your gut (based off the aforementioned no doubt) yes your opinion is ignored. You have the right to disagree because you “feel” like doing so, but if it’s not researched and peer reviewed it’s meaningless.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The whole point is on what grounds do you disagree. If it is based on social media memes, what some media figure “feels” is happening or just your gut (based off the aforementioned no doubt) yes your opinion is ignored. You have the right to disagree because you “feel” like doing so, but if it’s not researched and peer reviewed it’s meaningless.


I'm pretty sure you just proved my point.  So its not true until those that control the narrative say its true.  Got it.

There is a religion that has a quote "When the prophet speaks the debate is over".   We're treading dangerously close to this with our Covid policies.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> The whole point is on what grounds do you disagree. If it is based on social media memes, what some media figure “feels” is happening or just your gut (based off the aforementioned no doubt) yes your opinion is ignored.


that's not what's happening and team panic knows it.  the signers of the GBD are also "experts".  They are just experts your team discounts as "fringe", to use dad4's world.  As the article explains, the reason why is because they are outside the paradigm....they are heretics and therefore not worthy of the term "experts" because the paradigm must be defended at all cost.

The author doesn't explain what the paradigm is and why it shifted.  Here's a nascent seed of an idea.  It came to  me thinking about a movie we just watched....call it the "War of the Worlds" paradigm.  In the last 60-70 years there has been a radical shift in public health.  Through diet, sanitation, medicine and vaccination we have drastically reduced epidemics, particularly childhood diseases that took so many children in their childhood or injured their lives through long term health issues.   We have largely forgotten the millenia of our existence that when it came to public health, life tended to be nasty, brutish and short.  Our technology (whether the moon landing, jet travel, nuclear power or the internet) has fed that hubris that we have overcome our baser, animal selves that we would prefer to forget, rendering us different from our dogs and cats, let alone the wild animals.  It's led to a hubris that we can actually "control" a virus.  So, when finally faced with the unthinkable (after years of nightmare books and films ranging from the zombie invasions to Contagion), particularly among public health experts (who faced the unthinkable in their nightmares day to day, and waited for the big one to finally occur), all planning that had gone into preparing for a pandemic such as this was jettisoned and they settled on what to them was a scientific truth: that we could actually control the virus....it was unthinkable to them that we could actually lose such a war (which BTW is where we are...the war, like the war on poverty or war on drugs, or other fanciful utopian schemes....is a failure).  Hence, the rise of the new paradigm.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> your lack of economic training is why you don't see it, and you've just laid it out perfect.  One of the problems in the shift from micro-macro analysis is that of the scaling problem.  An entire month is devoted to the scaling problem in economics 202.  For example, one you see in education is Finnish schools have better results, if we adopt the Finnish school system we'll have great results, let's adopt the Finnish school system.  the problem fails to account that when you shift a problem from a small, homogenous society with a particular welfare system and environment, to a transcontinental one, other variables in the equal change.  Similar with "pilot programs" in industries, whether the post office or UBI or pizza delivery.  So, while a mask may prevent an exposure from one person to another (in say a dummy test or in a supermarket exchange) when you scale it up to a population level it won't work as well because errors and other variable begin to creep in.  The one you most often overlooked (which you yourself admitted) is that masks don't prevent anything in home transmissions, which is the biggest source of transmission.  Another one is work: while 2 people wearing a mask may prevent spread in a quick exchange with a supermarket cashier, it's not going to stop the fast food worker working hours on end next to another co-worker (and we KNOW this from mask studies done early on by the German health authorities in their meat process plants and car manufacturing factories).  Other errors creep in too: people don't wear masks properly especially over long periods of time, people are sick so they think going out with a mask is o.k. because others are protected, germs build up on masks, masks get worn down in the wash.  So if your dummies show a 10% potential change in transmission, that's not going to scale up to 10% change in the overall population or to R.
> 
> What's truly astounding is that your faith is blinding you to the fact that you've pointed out yourself exactly the reason why masks are failing on a macro basis all over the world (and we've seen this very clearly now whether the Texas county mask study, or comparing England and Scotland or comparing Los Angeles and Orange County)....masks, particularly with the Delta, have made very very little difference.  I know you have to done anything and everything to preserve your sacred talisman.  You cannot abide the possibility that you might actually be wrong and your talisman may actually not be that effective.  But it is the sad reality of things.  And that fact that you YOURSELF have shown this, and can't see it, would be really quite funny, if it wasn't so sad.


Please define your terms.  You keep referring to “macro” and “micro”.

It is not at all clear whether you mean individual versus population, single event versus repeated, or small scale trial versus full public implementation.  These are three different concepts.  You have all three mixed together in that rambling post, jumping from one to the other without any warning.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The article is really good at pointing at why.  it's a paradigm shift akin to shifting away from heliocentrism or to evolution or to Newtonian and away from Aristotilian physics.  it makes the good point that scientists have always treated scientists in the other paradigm as heretics (he's arguing, in effect, science has always been tainted by religion). The issue is that it's usually been held that science always moves forward...the author points out that's not always the case, and we who have been saying science is "questioning" are actually wrong....every day science usually works to bolster the paradigm and paradigm shifting questioning is actually quite rare.  It's an insightful way of looking at it....i hadn't really seen it until now.....it certainly does explain dad4 and his vehemence in the face of all the repeated and frequent failures of his paradigm.


I'll take your word for it, I honestly didn't understand a lot of the article, but I think I got the gist.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> that's not what's happening and team panic knows it.  the signers of the GBD are also "experts".  They are just experts your team discounts as "fringe", to use dad4's world.  As the article explains, the reason why is because they are outside the paradigm....they are heretics and therefore not worthy of the term "experts" because the paradigm must be defended at all cost.
> 
> The author doesn't explain what the paradigm is and why it shifted.  Here's a nascent seed of an idea.  It came to  me thinking about a movie we just watched....call it the "War of the Worlds" paradigm.  In the last 60-70 years there has been a radical shift in public health.  Through diet, sanitation, medicine and vaccination we have drastically reduced epidemics, particularly childhood diseases that took so many children in their childhood or injured their lives through long term health issues.   We have largely forgotten the millenia of our existence that when it came to public health, life tended to be nasty, brutish and short.  Our technology (whether the moon landing, jet travel, nuclear power or the internet) has fed that hubris that we have overcome our baser, animal selves that we would prefer to forget, rendering us different from our dogs and cats, let alone the wild animals.  It's led to a hubris that we can actually "control" a virus.  So, when finally faced with the unthinkable (after years of nightmare books and films ranging from the zombie invasions to Contagion), particularly among public health experts (who faced the unthinkable in their nightmares day to day, and waited for the big one to finally occur), all planning that had gone into preparing for a pandemic such as this was jettisoned and they settled on what to them was a scientific truth: that we could actually control the virus....it was unthinkable to them that we could actually lose such a war (which BTW is where we are...the war, like the war on poverty or war on drugs, or other fanciful utopian schemes....is a failure).  Hence, the rise of the new paradigm.


What a word spam.

“subverting the dominant paradigm” is mostly useful for half drunk arguments after the real work is done.  Don’t take it too seriously.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm pretty sure you just proved my point.  So its not true until those that control the narrative say its true.  Got it.
> 
> There is a religion that has a quote "When the prophet speaks the debate is over".   We're treading dangerously close to this with our Covid policies.


And you proved my point. You will rebel whether you have the ammunition or not.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> that's not what's happening and team panic knows it.  the signers of the GBD are also "experts".  They are just experts your team discounts as "fringe", to use dad4's world.  As the article explains, the reason why is because they are outside the paradigm....they are heretics and therefore not worthy of the term "experts" because the paradigm must be defended at all cost.
> 
> The author doesn't explain what the paradigm is and why it shifted.  Here's a nascent seed of an idea.  It came to  me thinking about a movie we just watched....call it the "War of the Worlds" paradigm.  In the last 60-70 years there has been a radical shift in public health.  Through diet, sanitation, medicine and vaccination we have drastically reduced epidemics, particularly childhood diseases that took so many children in their childhood or injured their lives through long term health issues.   We have largely forgotten the millenia of our existence that when it came to public health, life tended to be nasty, brutish and short.  Our technology (whether the moon landing, jet travel, nuclear power or the internet) has fed that hubris that we have overcome our baser, animal selves that we would prefer to forget, rendering us different from our dogs and cats, let alone the wild animals.  It's led to a hubris that we can actually "control" a virus.  So, when finally faced with the unthinkable (after years of nightmare books and films ranging from the zombie invasions to Contagion), particularly among public health experts (who faced the unthinkable in their nightmares day to day, and waited for the big one to finally occur), all planning that had gone into preparing for a pandemic such as this was jettisoned and they settled on what to them was a scientific truth: that we could actually control the virus....it was unthinkable to them that we could actually lose such a war (which BTW is where we are...the war, like the war on poverty or war on drugs, or other fanciful utopian schemes....is a failure).  Hence, the rise of the new paradigm.


That's a dream world.  "Control" should be "respond to".  Then your argument falls apart.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm pretty sure you just proved my point.  So its not true until those that control the narrative say its true.  Got it.
> 
> There is a religion that has a quote "When the prophet speaks the debate is over".   We're treading dangerously close to this with our Covid policies.


You’re just not qualified.  It has nothing to do with who controls the narrative.  It has to do with whether you are capable of doing the work in question.  

I don’t blame the Spanish Sports Mandarins for the fact that Barcelona hasn’t hired me as head coach yet.  I never bothered to learn that skill, so they have no need of my opinion on soccer.

Likewise, you quote some twitter troll who never bothered to learn epidemiology or aerosol physics, I have no need of his opinion on whether masks work.  His opinion on mask efficacy is as useless as my opinion on conditioning regimens.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Please define your terms.  You keep referring to “macro” and “micro”.
> 
> It is not at all clear whether you mean individual versus population, single event versus repeated, or small scale trial versus full public implementation.  These are three different concepts.  You have all three mixed together in that rambling post, jumping from one to the other without any warning.


this is, again, basic economics 202.  Micro is, as i told you in a post before, an incidence count....infection to infection....or if you prefer to it dummy to dummy at a particular measure of time.  Macro is anything that scales it.  the more you scale it, the bigger the scaling problem.   So, for example, let's say you have a group of 10 friends and you all decide that you are going to be very COVID careful: everyone vaxxed, everyone wears an N95, no one goes out if they feel sick, no one goes to indoor dining, everyone is real careful.  You know these 10 friends and know they feel the same about COVID as you, and so you feel pretty safe being around them, even with your 5 year old unvaxxed kid, since you know none of you send your 5 year olds to daycare, let alone wander around in indoor public settings unmasked.  Pretty safe, right?  Scale it up to your local small church group of 100 people..... you know and trust those people and they have a similar outlook to you, but maybe one of them works as a plumber and another has a kid working the lunch shift at mcdonalds. Scale it up to your neighborhood with people who look like you, vote like you and feel the same about COVID as you do.  Scale it up to to your city.  Transfer it to another city in a red state.  Transfer it to Japan (hence your preferred solution we all become Asian).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What a word spam.
> 
> “subverting the dominant paradigm” is mostly useful for half drunk arguments after the real work is done.  Don’t take it too seriously.


"i don't like him because he is attacking my cherished assumptions that I know about science so I'm going to dismiss it out of hand"


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re just not qualified.  It has nothing to do with who controls the narrative.  It has to do with whether you are capable of doing the work in question.
> 
> I don’t blame the Spanish Sports Mandarins for the fact that Barcelona hasn’t hired me as head coach yet.  I never bothered to learn that skill, so they have no need of my opinion on soccer.
> 
> Likewise, you quote some twitter troll who never bothered to learn epidemiology or aerosol physics, I have no need of his opinion on whether masks work.  His opinion on mask efficacy is as useless as my opinion on conditioning regimens.


p.s. you know with the misleading arguments, the lashing out, the not qualified, the shut ups and just accept it, the drinking game troll, you are just a hair away from becoming a full fledged member of the three amigos.  All it will take is just a nonsense or coo coo from you.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's a dream world.  "Control" should be "respond to".  Then your argument falls apart.


meh...the health experts, the journos, the teachers unions, the politicians, and the covidian proponents have all used the word "control" at some point...not my word.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> meh...the health experts, the journos, the teachers unions, the politicians, and the covidian proponents have all used the word "control" at some point...not my word.


Not like you used it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Not like you used it.


again, using their word to describe what they are thinking.

for what it's worth, i agree with you that the debate should be around what we should do to "respond to".

the paradigm, though, is that they aren't seeking to just "respond to"....they are seeking to "control" it because of their hubris that they think mankind has reached a point where it is possible to control such things (hence the "War of the Worlds" paradigm).

It's an inciteful point, however, so thanks for that.  I like thoughtful espola.  Maybe you'll climb down from the trollish 3 and dad 4 will agree to take your place?


----------



## Grace T.

Governor of colorado seeing writing on the wall is breaking away from the Covidians and declares the emergency over....









						Interview: Gov. Polis leaves mask mandates to local officials, says the state shouldn’t ‘tell people what to wear’
					

“You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.”




					www.cpr.org


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You’re just not qualified.  It has nothing to do with who controls the narrative.  It has to do with whether you are capable of doing the work in question.
> 
> I don’t blame the Spanish Sports Mandarins for the fact that Barcelona hasn’t hired me as head coach yet.  I never bothered to learn that skill, so they have no need of my opinion on soccer.
> 
> Likewise, you quote some twitter troll who never bothered to learn epidemiology or aerosol physics, I have no need of his opinion on whether masks work.  His opinion on mask efficacy is as useless as my opinion on conditioning regimens.


I've never quoted a twitter troll, I don't even have twitter.  What's up with the Covidian's having to misquoute and misrepresent someones argument to make theirs more plausible.

It's amazing you continue to appeal to authority (the ones that fit your narrative) and they continue to be wrong.  At what point are you going to walk away from the theoretical, the projections and the lab results and consider what's actually happening in the real world.  I hate to break it to you but the lab and the classroom are not the real world, which has been most acutely obvious over the past 18 months.

When you can look at what's actually happening you don't need someone else to research or peer review it for you.  You just need to exercise basic reason.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> The article is really good at pointing at why.  it's a paradigm shift akin to shifting away from heliocentrism or to evolution or to Newtonian and away from Aristotilian physics.  it makes the good point that scientists have always treated scientists in the other paradigm as heretics (he's arguing, in effect, science has always been tainted by religion). The issue is that it's usually been held that science always moves forward...the author points out that's not always the case, and we who have been saying science is "questioning" are actually wrong....every day science usually works to bolster the paradigm and paradigm shifting questioning is actually quite rare.  It's an insightful way of looking at it....i hadn't really seen it until now.....it certainly does explain dad4 and his vehemence in the face of all the repeated and frequent failures of his paradigm.


If you are going to walk the path of Kuhn it is important to emphasize that, in addition to the overhyped and much abused idea of the paradigm shift, he was also at pains to emphasize that, by its nature, science must work to generate some coherence in understanding.  Kuhn recognized that without this science would quickly degenerate to a quasi-functional state, shaped by cults of personality, much as we see in our current politics for example.  Even on our thread we've seen quotes to this effect just today.  Much of Kuhn's book was focused on the physcho/social constructs that enforced the conservative aspects of science as a necessary component of the discipline.  When a real paradigm shift comes-as opposed to whatever you are imagining-the ideas aren't necessary new, but radically re-formulated models that embrace old ideas in a new way, forced though the advent of new technologies, etc.  And the resulting paradigm rests of the foundation of the old ideas.  It's basically the evolutionary idea of punctuated equlibrium applied to science. For example, a real paradigm shift is echoing through the fields of  genetics at the moment. The ability to sequence genomes and track genetic diversity at large scale is forcing the field to move beyond a century ruled by conceptions of binary Mendelian traits and simple pathway analysis.   

I understand that from a narrow perspective bumping into Kuhn gives you another sciency term to plug into a dualistic framing that allows you to keep an argument running on social media, periodically claiming victory along the way.  Which is fun. And you are wrapped up in the politics of the moment and pissed off.  Everybody is tired of this thing.  But utimately, ideas are cheap. since you studied economics seems like if you put your mind to it you should be able to come up with at least 6 paradigm shift worthy ideas before breakfast.  Then people want to see the data.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> again, using their word to describe what they are thinking.
> 
> for what it's worth, i agree with you that the debate should be around what we should do to "respond to".
> 
> the paradigm, though, is that they aren't seeking to just "respond to"....they are seeking to "control" it because of their hubris that they think mankind has reached a point where it is possible to control such things (hence the "War of the Worlds" paradigm).
> 
> It's an inciteful point, however, so thanks for that.  I like thoughtful espola.  Maybe you'll climb down from the trollish 3 and dad 4 will agree to take your place?


That's just a continuation of your dream world.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Governor of colorado seeing writing on the wall is breaking away from the Covidians and declares the emergency over....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interview: Gov. Polis leaves mask mandates to local officials, says the state shouldn’t ‘tell people what to wear’
> 
> 
> “You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cpr.org


What's a Covidian?  Does capitalization give the term more status?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's just a continuation of your dream world.


Yeah, your improvement from troll to useful, thoughtful contributor does always turn out to be a dream world.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I've never quoted a twitter troll, I don't even have twitter.  What's up with the Covidian's having to misquoute and misrepresent someones argument to make theirs more plausible.
> 
> It's amazing you continue to appeal to authority (the ones that fit your narrative) and they continue to be wrong.  At what point are you going to walk away from the theoretical, the projections and the lab results and consider what's actually happening in the real world.  I hate to break it to you but the lab and the classroom are not the real world, which has been most acutely obvious over the past 18 months.
> 
> When you can look at what's actually happening you don't need someone else to research or peer review it for you.  You just need to exercise basic reason.


What's a Covidian?


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If you are going to walk the path of Kuhn it is important to emphasize that, in addition to the overhyped and much abused idea of the paradigm shift, he was also at pains to emphasize that, by its nature, science must work to generate some coherence in understanding.  Kuhn recognized that without this science would quickly degenerate to a quasi-functional state, shaped by cults of personality, much as we see in our current politics for example.  Even on our thread we've seen quotes to this effect just today.  Much of Kuhn's book was focused on the physcho/social constructs that enforced the conservative aspects of science as a necessary component of the discipline.  When a real paradigm shift comes-as opposed to whatever you are imagining-the ideas aren't necessary new, but radically re-formulated models that embrace old ideas in a new way, forced though the advent of new technologies, etc.  And the resulting paradigm rests of the foundation of the old ideas.  It's basically the evolutionary idea of punctuated equlibrium applied to science. For example, a real paradigm shift is echoing through the fields of  genetics at the moment. The ability to sequence genomes and track genetic diversity at large scale is forcing the field to move beyond a century ruled by conceptions of binary Mendelian traits and simple pathway analysis.
> 
> I understand that from a narrow perspective bumping into Kuhn gives you another sciency term to plug into a dualistic framing that allows you to keep an argument running on social media, periodically claiming victory along the way.  Which is fun. And you are wrapped up in the politics of the moment and pissed off.  Everybody is tired of this thing.  But utimately, ideas are cheap. since you studied economics seems like if you put your mind to it you should be able to come up with at least 6 paradigm shift worthy ideas before breakfast.  Then people want to see the data.


This one hit a little close to home, didn't it evilgoalie? Not your MO to lash out like the others. I see it's got all of the covidian-leaning people's feathers in a ruffle, which if it was just an idea to be dismissed, wouldn't inspire such a reaction.  

In any case, the author of the piece challenges the assumption that science is necessarily evolutionary.  And you make a great point about politics...one of the problems with the covid response is that it got wrapped up into politics.  

My point was that the author didn't get it broad enough.  the reason why it got wrapped into politics is because a hubris has crept into our scientific thought: that we are actually far enough removed from our animal selves that we think we have surmounted our human limitations and have, with our technology, become proteans if not outright gods.  The paradigm shift I am proposing is scientific hubris in the workability in technology.  You see this most obviously in the point that espola raised yesterday: every body was really excited about the speed which the mrna vaccines made a response possible, saving lives in the process, but which long term may not necessarily have been the best or most effective approach.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> What's a Covidian?


Our pet name for you Dad4, Espola, Husker, GoldenGate etc.  Actually that's unfair to you, GG is a Covidiot.

Whereas Dad4's pet name for me, GraceT, Desert Hound, Kickingandscreaming etc is Team Virus.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, your improvement from troll to useful, thoughtful contributor does always turn out to be a dream world.


Old habits die hard for you, right?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This one hit a little close to home, didn't it evilgoalie? Not your MO to lash out like the others. I see it's got all of the covidian-leaning people's feathers in a ruffle, which if it was just an idea to be dismissed, wouldn't inspire such a reaction.
> 
> In any case, the author of the piece challenges the assumption that science is necessarily evolutionary.  And you make a great point about politics...one of the problems with the covid response is that it got wrapped up into politics.
> 
> My point was that the author didn't get it broad enough.  the reason why it got wrapped into politics is because a hubris has crept into our scientific thought: that we are actually far enough removed from our animal selves that we think we have surmounted our human limitations and have, with our technology, become proteans if not outright gods.  The paradigm shift I am proposing is scientific hubris in the workability in technology.  You see this most obviously in the point that espola raised yesterday: every body was really excited about the speed which the mrna vaccines made a response possible, saving lives in the process, but which long term may not necessarily have been the best or most effective approach.


What merited "lash out"? 

I didn't say it wasn't the most effective approach.  Those are your words.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Our pet name for you Dad4, Espola, Husker, GoldenGate etc.  Actually that's unfair to you, GG is a Covidiot.
> 
> Whereas Dad4's pet name for me, GraceT, Desert Hound, Kickingandscreaming etc is Team Virus.


It's a larger memo too, not just our forum


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Our pet name for you Dad4, Espola, Husker, GoldenGate etc.  Actually that's unfair to you, GG is a Covidiot.
> 
> Whereas Dad4's pet name for me, GraceT, Desert Hound, Kickingandscreaming etc is Team Virus.


What happened to "Team Panic"?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's a larger memo too, not just our forum


Still meaningless.  

Or "coocoo", if you prefer.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What merited "lash out"?
> 
> I didn't say it wasn't the most effective approach.  Those are your words.


feel free to characterize your own response.  I'll take you at you word.  It was a winner, though....a rare but thoughtful and inciteful idea....careful about dragging it into the L column.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Old habits die hard for you, right?


hey I give you credit where credit is due.  A rare inciteful idea for one brief, shining moment, then you go on a small roll, now you are back to your old self.  You were saying about old habits dying hard?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *When you can look at what's actually happening you don't need someone else to research or peer review it for you.  You just need to exercise basic reason.*


No Reason with Treason.......


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> hey I give you credit where credit is due.  A rare inciteful idea for one brief, shining moment, then you go on a small roll, now you are back to your old self.  You were saying about old habits dying hard?


The entire post to which that was written in response was just your lies and fantasies.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> This one hit a little close to home, didn't it evilgoalie?


I'm not sure what hit you mean....I didn't click on your link.  I just saw your post to the effect that your take on dualing experts means a paradigm shift, which is silly.


----------



## Grace T.

We threw the kids over to protect the elderly.....





__





						Loading…
					





					www.washingtonpost.com


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'm not sure what hit you mean....I didn't click on your link.  I just saw your post to the effect that your take on dualing experts means a paradigm shift, which is silly.


that explains it.  You didn't read the article.  The point is addressed in the article.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The entire post to which that was written in response was just your lies and fantasies.


going full troll again, huh?

"oh Magoo, you've done it again!"

Not an ad, BTW, because I'm critiquing your response to my response and not your character (Magoo was a loveable character, beloved by all, only with a tendency to lose his way, an inability to see it, and a stubborn refusal to do what it would take to correct it)


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> What happened to "Team Panic"?


Whatever team I'm on, I want team alpha super awesome cool dynamite wolf squadron.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Whatever team I'm on, I want team alpha super awesome cool dynamite wolf squadron.


you are!  You are their crush after all (that's not intended as a put down BTW...I love crush and his quirky eccentricities).


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> What happened to "Team Panic"?


I believe it initially was Team Buzzkill, then Team Chicken Little, I don't recall using Team Panic but I could have.  It's just evolution and Covidian sounds more cult-like.

To me a Covidian is generally someone that exaggerates the risk of Covid in an attempt to rationalize mandates and restrictions.  Particularly when it comes to placing a disproportionate burden for Covid policies on our children.  Most are Covid myopic and incapable of considering a cost/benefit analysis.  It is not uncommon for Covidians to be dependent on the government or unions.  Diverse in their intellect, Covidians can have an IQ anywhere between 50 to 250; however, they tend to lack "street smarts".  They usually prefer an expert's opinion over actual results.  Their perspective is often driven by fear and/or a sense of superiority.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> that explains it.  You didn't read the article.  The point is addressed in the article.


If have time tonight I'll check it out.  Maybe.  I suspect my point will not be.  Which is fine.  But the last of your links I clicked on had some guy come on and start talking about sleeping on a couch.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I believe it initially was Team Buzzkill, then Team Chicken Little, I don't recall using Team Panic but I could have.  It's just evolution and Covidian sounds more cult-like.
> 
> To me a Covidian is generally someone that exaggerates the risk of Covid in an attempt to rationalize mandates and restrictions.  Particularly when it comes to placing a disproportionate burden for Covid policies on our children.  Most are Covid myopic and incapable of considering a cost/benefit analysis.  It is not uncommon for Covidians to be dependent on the government or unions.  Diverse in their intellect, Covidians can have an IQ anywhere between 50 to 250; however, they tend to lack "street smarts".  They usually prefer an expert's opinion over actual results.  Their perspective is often driven by fear and/or a sense of superiority.


Do you think Grace agrees with that definition?


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Whatever team I'm on, I want team alpha super awesome cool dynamite wolf squadron.


Unlike youth soccer we have a limit on the number of superlatives that you can use in a title.  May I recommend Team Alpha Wolf?

Now if I were to name you it would be Team Your Posts Go Over My Head


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Do you think Grace agrees with that definition?


It's a good one, but I've always tended more towards a Potter Stewart test.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Unlike youth soccer we have a limit on the number of superlatives that you can use in a title.  May I recommend Team Alpha Wolf?
> 
> Now if I were to name you it would be Team Your Posts Go Over My Head


Younger kid starting to age out of pixar, so been a bit, but as I recall team alpha wolf squadron was the cross dressing wolf's initial suggestion in Shrek some number.  Which got expanded in the end because of.....concensus.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Do you think Grace agrees with that definition?


How would I know?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> this is, again, basic economics 202.  Micro is, as i told you in a post before, an incidence count....infection to infection....or if you prefer to it dummy to dummy at a particular measure of time.  Macro is anything that scales it.  the more you scale it, the bigger the scaling problem.   So, for example, let's say you have a group of 10 friends and you all decide that you are going to be very COVID careful: everyone vaxxed, everyone wears an N95, no one goes out if they feel sick, no one goes to indoor dining, everyone is real careful.  You know these 10 friends and know they feel the same about COVID as you, and so you feel pretty safe being around them, even with your 5 year old unvaxxed kid, since you know none of you send your 5 year olds to daycare, let alone wander around in indoor public settings unmasked.  Pretty safe, right?  Scale it up to your local small church group of 100 people..... you know and trust those people and they have a similar outlook to you, but maybe one of them works as a plumber and another has a kid working the lunch shift at mcdonalds. Scale it up to your neighborhood with people who look like you, vote like you and feel the same about COVID as you do.  Scale it up to to your city.  Transfer it to another city in a red state.  Transfer it to Japan (hence your preferred solution we all become Asian).


Your interpretation of the scaling problem would imply that calculus, and anything built on calculus, will never work.  It all relies on adding very large numbers of very small things.  Yet we design airplanes using this reasoning, and they don’t seem to fall out of the sky.   The world is more complicated than “scaling always makes it less effective.”

In this case, some of the scaling issues help you.  There are very large positive externalities:  If I don’t get infected, I also do not transmit.   Positive externalities make scaling easier.  As you get larger, a higher percentage of the positive interactions feed back into your system.  In your example, less than half of my interactions are with my ten closest friends.  Most of the positive externalities escape.   But, for a man my age in Tokyo, almost 100% of his contacts are with other Japanese citizens.  Almost none of the positive externalities escape.

The result is that a scaled system can be considerably more effective than a small one.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's a good one, but I've always tended more towards a Potter Stewart test.


Something that causes innate sexual arousal?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your interpretation of the scaling problem would imply that calculus, and anything built on calculus, will never work.  It all relies on adding very large numbers of very small things.  Yet we design airplanes using this reasoning, and they don’t seem to fall out of the sky.   The world is more complicated than “scaling always makes it less effective.”
> 
> In this case, some of the scaling issues help you.  There are very large positive externalities:  If I don’t get infected, I also do not transmit.   Positive externalities make scaling easier.  As you get larger, a higher percentage of the positive interactions feed back into your system.  In your example, less than half of my interactions are with my ten closest friends.  Most of the positive externalities escape.   But, for a man my age in Tokyo, almost 100% of his contacts are with other Japanese citizens.  Almost none of the positive externalities escape.
> 
> The result is that a scaled system can be considerably more effective than a small one.



Wow you'll bend into a twister to defend your talisman, won't you.

As to calculus, it's a perfect example about why they don't trust the hard core STEM people to make the big decisions: it's exactly this kind of narrow minded thinking.  The elegance of math is it's perfection.  The real world is not perfect.  In the real world variables and imperfections creep in.  It's funny you mention the airplanes.  My son was watching a "Young Sheldon" the other day which illustrates the problem perfectly.  Young Sheldon was struggling with his first engineering class because his profe is a hard ass.  As part of an assignment, Sheldon was asked to design a bridge.  Being a mathematical genius, he designed it mathematically perfectly.  But the 10+ times he turned his assignment, the profe kept tearing up the assignment saying it was wrong and to do it again.  In the end, the moral was Sheldon was forgetting to factor in wind, which kept crashing his bridge.  You are Young Sheldon and looking at the world in the exact same way!!! The best part is that the 10+ times Sheldon couldn't see it either and the profe wouldn't tell him what was wrong.

The idea that a scaled system can be considerably more effective than a small one BTW flies in the face of all economic thought.  It's why econ is divided the first year into 101 and 102 and they are taken separately.  The relationship between them isn't explored until 202.  First the students need to understand how the models work...then they need to understand why those models are limited.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Something that causes innate sexual arousal?


See comedy is your strong suit.  Stick to that.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow you'll bend into a twister to defend your talisman, won't you.
> 
> As to calculus, it's a perfect example about why they don't trust the hard core STEM people to make the big decisions: it's exactly this kind of narrow minded thinking.  The elegance of math is it's perfection.  The real world is not perfect.  In the real world variables and imperfections creep in.  It's funny you mention the airplanes.  My son was watching a "Young Sheldon" the other day which illustrates the problem perfectly.  Young Sheldon was struggling with his first engineering class because his profe is a hard ass.  As part of an assignment, Sheldon was asked to design a bridge.  Being a mathematical genius, he designed it mathematically perfectly.  But the 10+ times he turned his assignment, the profe kept tearing up the assignment saying it was wrong and to do it again.  In the end, the moral was Sheldon was forgetting to factor in wind, which kept crashing his bridge.  You are Young Sheldon and looking at the world in the exact same way!!! The best part is that the 10+ times Sheldon couldn't see it either and the profe wouldn't tell him what was wrong.
> 
> The idea that a scaled system can be considerably more effective than a small one BTW flies in the face of all economic thought.  It's why econ is divided the first year into 101 and 102 and they are taken separately.  The relationship between them isn't explored until 202.  First the students need to understand how the models work...then they need to understand why those models are limited.


Are you under the impression that you’re the only person on the planet who ever took college economics?

Don’t just regurgitate your textbook.  Think.  A larger system does a better job trapping any externalities.  If those externalities are positive, you are trapping the benefits.  As a result, positive externalities improve scaling.  

Infectious disease control has extremely large positive externalities.  This means that infectious disease control has a major factor which helps scaling.  You can’t just say “scaling never works because 202 said so.”.


----------



## watfly

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a tennis match were I'm not quick enough to see the ball.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> going full troll again, huh?
> 
> "oh Magoo, you've done it again!"
> 
> Not an ad, BTW, because I'm critiquing your response to my response and not your character (Magoo was a loveable character, beloved by all, only with a tendency to lose his way, an inability to see it, and a stubborn refusal to do what it would take to correct it)


 He is now Mr. Magoon from the movie "Swamp Creatures."


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Are you under the impression that you’re the only person on the planet who ever took college economics?
> 
> Don’t just regurgitate your textbook.  Think.  A larger system does a better job trapping any externalities.  If those externalities are positive, you are trapping the benefits.  As a result, positive externalities improve scaling.
> 
> Infectious disease control has extremely large positive externalities.  This means that infectious disease control has a major factor which helps scaling.  You can’t just say “scaling never works because 202 said so.”.


You completely ignore the critique.  Man, you really are just like young sheldon.  You just see what you want to see and you stubbornly refuse to see it.  It is like completely spot on.  I'll have to tell my kid that...he didn't believe me that could actually happen and we got into this entire debate about how autism works (not saying you are autistic...but it's a good illustration that it does in fact happen). 

Yes, there are positive externalities that improve scaling....of course.  The problem, though, is the errors hypothesis....which is why scaling is almost always, when it comes to public policy, a problem.  The larger the system, the more errors that creep in.  I've outlined for you what those errors are.  The same effect as your positive externalities take place...they multiply.  Which gives you the real world results: why masks failed to do much of anything in actual practice when it came to national and regional results.  Again, your entire assumption rests on a foundation that you think there's no wind.  You think there's no imperfections because you want to see your perfect Soviet man, and you time and time again neglect the time factor as well.  "That is why you fail"


----------



## crush

I have to go.  I'll be back to catch up with you all later.  It's cool getting to know everyone better through this pandemic.  It's been hard for most of us here and especially the kiddos.  Let's do our part to make a better tomorrow for our children and widows.  I Love you all my friends and even my foe(s).  Were in for the coolest show ever you guys and if you stay alive through this crap, you will enjoy peace and happiness.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You completely ignore the critique.  Man, you really are just like young sheldon.  You just see what you want to see and you stubbornly refuse to see it.  It is like completely spot on.  I'll have to tell my kid that...he didn't believe me that could actually happen and we got into this entire debate about how autism works (not saying you are autistic...but it's a good illustration that it does in fact happen).
> 
> Yes, there are positive externalities that improve scaling....of course.  The problem, though, is the errors hypothesis....which is why scaling is almost always, when it comes to public policy, a problem.  The larger the system, the more errors that creep in.  I've outlined for you what those errors are.  The same effect as your positive externalities take place...they multiply.  Which gives you the real world results: why masks failed to do much of anything in actual practice when it came to national and regional results.  Again, your entire assumption rests on a foundation that you think there's no wind.  You think there's no imperfections because you want to see your perfect Soviet man, and you time and time again neglect the time factor as well.  "That is why you fail"


BTW, bit of an egg headed tangent here, but there is an entire field of economic study loosely grouped under the theory of "economies of scale" that generally studies efficiencies that can macroed up and multiplied.  The counter to that, and the caution students learn, is the errors hypothesis: the larger the system, the harder it is to scale, the more errors that creep in.  Business school is essentially, when you think about it, geared to achieving some of those efficiencies.  Law school is geared to poking holes in them (except those frustratingly dogmatic guys in the "efficiency of capital markets schools"...I get the theory but they always always neglected the errors hypothesis which drove me nuts and which explains why the efficiency in capital markets schools is so bad at predicting bubbles and crashes).  Most top tier law schools in the first year have something called "The Rounds" (or in some schools other names like "The auction") where employers show up and try to woe law students (portrayed in the movie "The Firm").  Consulting groups make the rounds trying to woo law students off the law firm track.   I did the "Rounds" (since my Soviet ventures having fallen apart, I was looking for a new way to pull myself out of the particular alley I had taken).  I asked them...so why you guys solicit lawyers for those jobs and don't just go across the river to the business school....the answer: 1) lawyers are particularly good at firing people, and 2) lawyers are particularly good at seeing the problems with the efficiency schemes of the business schools.  End of tangental story.


----------



## whatithink

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If have time tonight I'll check it out.  Maybe.  I suspect my point will not be.  Which is fine.  But the last of your links I clicked on had some guy come on and start talking about sleeping on a couch.


Its written by some dude who is not a scientist, but who says he's read a lot of science stuff since March 2020, so that apparently gives him expertise (in his mind). His (scientific) contention is that there's a new paradigm (he believes in) and society as we know it will collapse if its not embraced. Doom and gloom merchant if everyone doesn't get on board with his view basically.

My take anyway ...


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Its written by some dude who is not a scientist, but who says he's read a lot of science stuff since March 2020, so that apparently gives him expertise (in his mind). His (scientific) contention is that there's a new paradigm (he believes in) and society as we know it will collapse if its not embraced. Doom and gloom merchant if everyone doesn't get on board with his view basically.
> 
> My take anyway ...


Wow this one really did ruffle the Covidian feathers.  You've all come out for it.  Really did hit close to home which tells me it's not just a yawn...interesting...move on.

the problem he's outlining isn't a scientific problem: it's a historical and philosophical one.  He isn't contending that he believes in the new paradigm....he says there's a paradigm shift happening which he doesn't believe in.  The result isn't society collapsing on itself, but it explains why on the new paradigm they seem to attack everyone outside of it as fringe or heretical.  It's not doom and gloom for society, but he's explaining why he, a previously political centrist, feels lost, and why we can't seem to communicate with each other (because we are speaking from two different paradigms).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> The entire post to which that was written in response was just your lies and fantasies.


She is consumed with herself, the narrative she writes. Like a female Aff-leet aka the plumber. The Id is winning with that one.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Wow this one really did ruffle the Covidian feathers.  You've all come out for it.  Really did hit close to home which tells me it's not just a yawn...interesting...move on.
> 
> the problem he's outlining isn't a scientific problem: it's a historical and philosophical one.  He isn't contending that he believes in the new paradigm....he says there's a paradigm shift happening which he doesn't believe in.  The result isn't society collapsing on itself, but it explains why on the new paradigm they seem to attack everyone outside of it as fringe or heretical.  It's not doom and gloom for society, but he's explaining why he, a previously political centrist, feels lost, and why we can't seem to communicate with each other (because we are speaking from two different paradigms).


His conclusion is below - "_our paradigm_" points to more than one. He then makes reference to "_the new scientific paradigm_", so I'm going out on a limb and saying that he is contending that there is a new paradigm. His last point is "_the future of both medical science and society are at stake_", so his take seems pretty doom & gloom to me.

Its fascinating to me how first world problems seem so catastrophic to first worlders, and would be absolute bliss to literally billions around the world. If the last couple of years are the worse "hardships" our first world countries have to endure in our lifetimes, then we will have been blessed.

_"We anti-lockdown centrists are fully prepared to argue on both facts and principles, and we continue to hope that our paradigm will win out. We believe that the new scientific paradigm fails even on Kuhn’s own terms, because it provides no better model for understanding the phenomena. But, beyond that, we maintain that the old paradigms – both scientific and social – really are more true to the natural world and to human nature. So we hope that our communities can be convinced both that most anti-Covid measures have proved ineffective, and that their social price is far too high. Such arguments will not be easy, because dialogue between paradigms never is. The first step is for both sides to see that the debate is indeed between rival paradigms, and that, consequently, the future of both medical science and society are at stake."_


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> She is consumed with herself, the narrative she writes. Like a female Aff-leet aka the plumber. The Id is winning with that one.


even comparing your 2 responses back to back, he does it better.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a tennis match were I'm not quick enough to see the ball.


That’s hockey.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> His conclusion is below - "_our paradigm_" points to more than one. He then makes reference to "_the new scientific paradigm_", so I'm going out on a limb and saying that he is contending that there is a new paradigm. His last point is "_the future of both medical science and society are at stake_", so his take seems pretty doom & gloom to me.
> 
> Its fascinating to me how first world problems seem so catastrophic to first worlders, and would be absolute bliss to literally billions around the world. If the last couple of years are the worse "hardships" our first world countries have to ensure in our lifetimes, then we will have been blessed.
> 
> _"We anti-lockdown centrists are fully prepared to argue on both facts and principles, and we continue to hope that our paradigm will win out. We believe that the new scientific paradigm fails even on Kuhn’s own terms, because it provides no better model for understanding the phenomena. But, beyond that, we maintain that the old paradigms – both scientific and social – really are more true to the natural world and to human nature. So we hope that our communities can be convinced both that most anti-Covid measures have proved ineffective, and that their social price is far too high. Such arguments will not be easy, because dialogue between paradigms never is. The first step is for both sides to see that the debate is indeed between rival paradigms, and that, consequently, the future of both medical science and society are at stake."_


well, I'll give you this...I agree the closing rhetoric is overblown.  But i do agree with his point: that how the paradigm plays out will determine how medical science and society evolve.

I'm actually more optimistic than he is for one simple reason: The Europeans seem to be much more restrained than our blue checks, and given the political wave that is building in the US (again, short of Trump or some other factor derailing it), the Ds are in for a spanking of epic proportions which will (one way or another) end this (or at least substantially shift it).  in the long run, though, I have faith truth wins out.  Prediction 5-10 years from now we'll be having self-reflexive articles wondering what did we do (particularly to children as those children grow up into adult hood).


----------



## Grace T.

Dr. John "Doom" Campbell is optimistic about how this is shaping up....omicron seems less severe and is outcompeting the delta.  The funniest thing about the video is he (who used to sing his praises), rips into Fergueson.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> even comparing your 2 responses back to back, he does it better.


And?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> And?


Now you are just aping the Two Step.  He does that better too.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> well, I'll give you this...I agree the closing rhetoric is overblown.  But i do agree with his point: that how the paradigm plays out will determine how medical science and society evolve.
> 
> I'm actually more optimistic than he is for one simple reason: The Europeans seem to be much more restrained than our blue checks, and given the political wave that is building in the US (again, short of Trump or some other factor derailing it), the Ds are in for a spanking of epic proportions which will (one way or another) end this (or at least substantially shift it).  in the long run, though, I have faith truth wins out.  Prediction 5-10 years from now we'll be having self-reflexive articles wondering what did we do (particularly to children as those children grow up into adult hood).


The Ds will get spanked, both because its mid terms and redistricting. The overwhelming majority of kids will be just fine 5-10 years from now although various talking heads will be spinning some cr@p on cable TV to generate $ hypothesizing about whatifs that nobody can prove/disprove about how they are a damaged generation or some such.

Can't wait until we get back to normal for kids ... we care so much!


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The Ds will get spanked, both because its mid terms and redistricting. The overwhelming majority of kids will be just fine 5-10 years from now although various talking heads will be spinning some cr@p on cable TV to generate $ hypothesizing about whatifs that nobody can prove/disprove about how they are a damaged generation or some such.
> 
> Can't wait until we get back to normal for kids ... we care so much!
> 
> View attachment 12341


Again, IF the numbers hold up, it's not just a spanking but a spanking of epic proportions along the lines of '94.  Biden's poll number, the D hispanic support, right track/wrong track for the country....all epically bad.....3 years is a really really long time and everything can change but Biden right now is on track to make Carter seem like a D success story (or if you prefer, to make Trump's performance in the mid terms look Reaganesque).


----------



## Grace T.

Sigh.......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469415659813621761


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Again, IF the numbers hold up, it's not just a spanking but a spanking of epic proportions along the lines of '94.  Biden's poll number, the D hispanic support, right track/wrong track for the country....all epically bad.....3 years is a really really long time and everything can change but Biden right now is on track to make Carter seem like a D success story (or if you prefer, to make Trump's performance in the mid terms look Reaganesque).


That's entirely possible. Its certainly likely that the Ds get spanked irrespective. If the economy keeps going as it does though, that may negate things for them somewhat. 

*The US unemployment rate fell by 0.4 percentage points to 4.2 percent in November of 2021 from 4.6 percent in October and well below market expectations of 4.5 percent. It was the lowest jobless rate since February 2020, as the number of unemployed persons fell by 542,000 to 6.9 million. Meanwhile, the labor force participation rate edged up to 61.8 percent in November, the highest level since March 2020, and is 1.5 percentage points lower than in February 2020. The employment-population ratio increased by 0.4 percentage points to 59.2 percent in November, up from its low of 51.3 percent in April 2020 but below 61.1 percent reported in February 2020. source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics*

Inflation is a killer for them though.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> The Ds will get spanked, both because its mid terms and redistricting. The overwhelming majority of kids will be just fine 5-10 years from now although various talking heads will be spinning some cr@p on cable TV to generate $ hypothesizing about whatifs that nobody can prove/disprove about how they are a damaged generation or some such.
> 
> Can't wait until we get back to normal for kids ... we care so much!
> 
> View attachment 12341


Curious mentality to justify F'ing with kids for a few years under the premise that they will just be fine in 5-10 years.


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> The Ds will get spanked, both because its mid terms and redistricting. The overwhelming majority of kids will be just fine 5-10 years from now although various talking heads will be spinning some cr@p on cable TV to generate $ hypothesizing about whatifs that nobody can prove/disprove about how they are a damaged generation or some such.
> 
> Can't wait until we get back to normal for kids ... we care so much!
> 
> View attachment 12341


Re-districting cuts both ways , which is why you haven’t heard those cries really


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> That's entirely possible. Its certainly likely that the Ds get spanked irrespective. If the economy keeps going as it does though, that may negate things for them somewhat.
> 
> *The US unemployment rate fell by 0.4 percentage points to 4.2 percent in November of 2021 from 4.6 percent in October and well below market expectations of 4.5 percent. It was the lowest jobless rate since February 2020, as the number of unemployed persons fell by 542,000 to 6.9 million. Meanwhile, the labor force participation rate edged up to 61.8 percent in November, the highest level since March 2020, and is 1.5 percentage points lower than in February 2020. The employment-population ratio increased by 0.4 percentage points to 59.2 percent in November, up from its low of 51.3 percent in April 2020 but below 61.1 percent reported in February 2020. source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics*
> 
> Inflation is a killer for them though.


As you say inflation is a killer.  At the rate it's going it's wiping any employment wage gains.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Curious mentality to justify F'ing with kids for a few years under the premise that they will just be fine in 5-10 years.


I also like the "overwhelming"...the rest of them....many of them constituencies near and dear to D hearts....who cares....collateral damage.

it's like the reverse of saying the "overwhelming" number of people who catch covid (at least pre-vaccine) will be fine.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Curious mentality to justify F'ing with kids for a few years under the premise that they will just be fine in 5-10 years.


Where exactly am I justifying "F'ing with kids"? Here's a hint, read what I was replying to, then my reply, then take a leap and realize that I'm not talking about "F'ing with kids" at all.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> GG is a Covidiot.


Nice.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> well, I'll give you this...I agree the closing rhetoric is overblown.  But i do agree with his point: that how the paradigm plays out will determine how medical science and society evolve.
> 
> I'm actually more optimistic than he is for one simple reason: The Europeans seem to be much more restrained than our blue checks, and given the political wave that is building in the US (again, short of Trump or some other factor derailing it), the Ds are in for a spanking of epic proportions which will (one way or another) end this (or at least substantially shift it).  in the long run, though, I have faith truth wins out.  Prediction 5-10 years from now we'll be having self-reflexive articles wondering what did we do (particularly to children as those children grow up into adult hood).


When the European's consider math "racist", then we will know they have lost their way as well.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Where exactly am I justifying "F'ing with kids"? Here's a hint, read what I was replying to, then my reply, then take a leap and realize that I'm not talking about "F'ing with kids" at all.


It's the cavalier attitude that kids will be fine in 5-10 years. If you weren't referring to Covid policies then my apologies. Let me ask you this:

Are you saying that kids have not been damaged during Covid due to lockdowns (ie disruption of education, negative mental health impacts etc)?
Did you support extended school closures?
Do you support continued masking of school children regardless of age even if vaccinated?
Do you support weekly, or twice weekly testing of student athletes even if vaccinated?
Do you support kids being sent home from school for up to 14 days for just having exposure to another student with Covid?
Do you think kids 5 and up should be required to be vaccinated to attend school?  If so, why shouldn't parents have the choice to vaccinate their kids?


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> Re-districting cuts both ways , which is why you haven’t heard those cries really


Gerrymandering should be illegal, but SCOTUS determined that its just fine as long as its only done to favor a party, as against race etc. I find that bizarre, and fundamentally undemocratic, but what do you do, SCOTUS thinks the house should be renamed "The House that's not Representative". I'm sure there's an originalist reason for that. 

There are already legal challenges ongoing in some states. One particularly egregious example is Ohio, where the Rs (in this instance) have suggested a plan which would give them a 13-2 advantage. For reference, T carried Ohio with 53% of the vote. The plan also violates a constitutional amendment prohibiting districts which unduly favor a party or incumbents. So the actual electorate say they want fair elections and voted in a constitutional amendment to get them, but the state representatives (based on the previously gerrymandered districts) are not so enthused!


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> It's the cavalier attitude that kids will be fine in 5-10 years. If you weren't referring to Covid policies then my apologies. Let me ask you this:
> 
> Are you saying that kids have not been damaged during Covid due to lockdowns (ie disruption of education, negative mental health impacts etc)?
> Did you support extended school closures?
> Do you support continued masking of school children regardless of age even if vaccinated?
> Do you support weekly, or twice weekly testing of student athletes even if vaccinated?
> Do you support kids being sent home from school for up to 14 days for just having exposure to another student with Covid?
> Do you think kids 5 and up should be required to be vaccinated to attend school?  If so, why shouldn't parents have the choice to vaccinate their kids?


I was replying to something Grace said - context is always key. The "overwhelming" word explicitly acknowledges that not all will be. I'll even entertain your Qs
- No, some will have been. 
- No.
- No.
- No.
- This is too broad. Were they just in the same classroom or sitting next to for 7 hours a day? What's the ventilation like in the school in Q? Is the kid vaccinated or have they been previously infected? What's the "greater good", i.e. one kid has to stay at home for 14 days, or 30 kids get Covid and they are all at home for 14 days.
- No.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s hockey.


Remember when Fox network tried to improve the viewer experience of hockey by putting glowing highlights around the puck?  All they really needed to do was widen the camera angle and watch the players' reactions.  In the long run. HDTV pretty much solved the problem anyway.


----------



## Grace T.

this is good news about t-cells and omicron.  Why it might not be putting as many people in the hospital.









						Minimal cross-over between mutations associated with Omicron variant of SARS-CoV-2 and CD8+ T cell epitopes identified in COVID-19 convalescent individuals
					

There is a growing concern that ongoing evolution of SARS-CoV-2 could lead to variants of concern (VOC) that are capable of avoiding some or all of the multi-faceted immune response generated by both prior infection or vaccination, with the recently described B.1.1.529 (Omicron) VOC being of...




					www.biorxiv.org


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I was replying to something Grace said - context is always key. The "overwhelming" word explicitly acknowledges that not all will be. I'll even entertain your Qs
> - No, some will have been.
> - No.
> - No.
> - No.
> - This is too broad. Were they just in the same classroom or sitting next to for 7 hours a day? What's the ventilation like in the school in Q? Is the kid vaccinated or have they been previously infected? What's the "greater good", i.e. one kid has to stay at home for 14 days, or 30 kids get Covid and they are all at home for 14 days.
> - No.


My apologies for taking you out of context.  Im super sensitive when it comes to the treatment of kids during Covid.

I happen to agree with you on gerrymandering.  Win on your merits not on district boundaries.  However if Dems think the primary reasons they are going to lose is midterm history and redistricting they are tone deaf.  At a minimum they need to modify their messaging on crime, energy, education and spending.  They dont need to become Rs but they need to moderate some of the extremism.  Id say the same about Rs when it comes to certain issues.  At the end of the day I think most of us are moderates that lean left or right.

Unfortunately the 2024 election is shaping up to be a disaster.  Hopefully a lot changes.


----------



## Grace T.

Lausd has officially postponed its mandate to next school year. Another mandate falls.


----------



## espola

University of Florida Faculty Senate report on challenges to academic freedom in the current Florida political climate.  Included are instances of destruction of or restricted access to research data on covid.









						FinalReport_FacultySenateAdHocCommitteeonAF.pdf
					






					drive.google.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Some thoughts/headlines of the day.


----------



## Desert Hound

_"AS I POINTED OUT BEFORE IN REFERENCE TO ALL OF THESE “COVID MEASURES”: *If any of them were effective, we’d see a huge, disparate impact between states, *because even in the mid 2020, these were *applied in wildly different ways across the country*, as we found out.  *And yet, the results are more or less the same everywhere.*  Worse, in this case, the bad effects of infection are almost non-existent in normal, healthy children anyway. And they rarely transmit the disease. We know this. And yet the torture of the innocent continues.  __No, Our Kids Are Not As Resilient As The Experts Said They’d Be._"

How long will you tolerate this?

dad and others keep looking at their models and they tell us it should/will be different. They cling to masks, NPIs, etc. In the end it didn't make any difference in stopping the disease. It did however heavily impact kids, biz, families, etc in a negative way. 

If they looked up from their models, they would see the policies they advocated over the past 2 yrs have not yielded positive results. Team Reality or as they say Team Virus has been right about how this would end up.


----------



## Desert Hound

Is it post pandemic stress? Or is it something else causing the issue?









						UK: Surge in Heart Problems Blamed on ‘Post Pandemic Stress Disorder’
					

Meanwhile, new report asserts that young people recover quickly from myocarditis side effect of COVID-19 vaccine.




					legalinsurrection.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You completely ignore the critique.  Man, you really are just like young sheldon.  You just see what you want to see and you stubbornly refuse to see it.  It is like completely spot on.  I'll have to tell my kid that...he didn't believe me that could actually happen and we got into this entire debate about how autism works (not saying you are autistic...but it's a good illustration that it does in fact happen).
> 
> Yes, there are positive externalities that improve scaling....of course.  The problem, though, is the errors hypothesis....which is why scaling is almost always, when it comes to public policy, a problem.  The larger the system, the more errors that creep in.  I've outlined for you what those errors are.  The same effect as your positive externalities take place...they multiply.  Which gives you the real world results: why masks failed to do much of anything in actual practice when it came to national and regional results.  Again, your entire assumption rests on a foundation that you think there's no wind.  You think there's no imperfections because you want to see your perfect Soviet man, and you time and time again neglect the time factor as well.  "That is why you fail"


Your post appears to be 80% insults, trash talking, and tangents.

Your only point is the errors hypothesis.  I’ll deal with that.

With respect to masks, you have already listed some possible errors: people might adjust them too often, or touch the outside.   You are essentially arguing that people are too stupid to be taught how to wear masks. 

1- Fauci already tried this argument.  It was bogus when he said it.  It is no less bogus when you say it. 
2- The Bangladesh study included a rather large scale mask education campaign.  They got statistically significant results.  Therefore, hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi villagers are smart enough to learn how to wear masks.  Other nationalities are probably also capable.

With respect to vaccines, none of the scaling arguments can work.   Billions of people have received doses by now.  Whatever scaling problems existed, we are dealing with them.  

The errors hypothesis doesn’t seem to have much legs.  We tried it on the the biggest two questions, and it goes nowhere.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your post appears to be 80% insults, trash talking, and tangents.
> 
> Your only point is the errors hypothesis.  I’ll deal with that.
> 
> With respect to masks, you have already listed some possible errors: people might adjust them too often, or touch the outside.   You are essentially arguing that people are too stupid to be taught how to wear masks.
> 
> 1- Fauci already tried this argument.  It was bogus when he said it.  It is no less bogus when you say it.
> 2- The Bangladesh study included a rather large scale mask education campaign.  They got statistically significant results.  Therefore, hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi villagers are smart enough to learn how to wear masks.  Other nationalities are probably also capable.
> 
> With respect to vaccines, none of the scaling arguments can work.   Billions of people have received doses by now.  Whatever scaling problems existed, we are dealing with them.
> 
> The errors hypothesis doesn’t seem to have much legs.  We tried it on the the biggest two questions, and it goes nowhere.


1. I see you are trotting out the old routine of playing the victim. When you do it’s perfectly fine because you are on the side of right, but when others do it thats bad. Your double standard is obnoxious

2. you take people as they are not how you’d like it to be. And you and your allies have been complaining about how stupid the trump supporting vaccine refusing red staters are. The fact you think you can teach people for whom you have such contempt for how to wear masks properly is laughable.

3. education programs are also subject to the scaling problem. It’s the classic pilot program problem. The fact you think you could put the American people (including children) in front of mandatory zoom classes to learn proper mask wearing is not only laughable but your authoritarian streak is showing. I’m sure based on prior comments you’d be ok with work and store monitors correcting people who wear their masks wrong. Would work in Singapore…not here…you couldn’t even get people to work those jobs given the labor shortage or maybe you prefer the Chinese neighbor rat on neighbor.

4. we dealt with the Bangladesh study. All that effort for so little result and such a flawed study and THAT is the best you could do.

5. vaccines involve much less room for error. A classic technology only reliance which is best equipped for economies of scale. Sadlythey do not work as advertised.  Can be transmitted and receive the omicron. Even a weddin outbreak now in your neck of the woods. Given that, mandates are not warranted at the current time.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 1. I see you are trotting out the old routine of playing the victim. When you do it’s perfectly fine because you are on the side of right, but when others do it thats bad. Your double standard is obnoxious
> 
> 2. you take people as they are not how you’d like it to be. And you and your allies have been complaining about how stupid the trump supporting vaccine refusing red staters are. The fact you think you can teach people for whom you have such contempt for how to wear masks properly is laughable.
> 
> 3. education programs are also subject to the scaling problem. It’s the classic pilot program problem. The fact you think you could put the American people (including children) in front of mandatory zoom classes to learn proper mask wearing is not only laughable but your authoritarian streak is showing. I’m sure based on prior comments you’d be ok with work and store monitors correcting people who wear their masks wrong. Would work in Singapore…not here…you couldn’t even get people to work those jobs given the labor shortage or maybe you prefer the Chinese neighbor rat on neighbor.
> 
> 4. we dealt with the Bangladesh study. All that effort for so little result and such a flawed study and THAT is the best you could do.
> 
> 5. vaccines involve much less room for error. A classic technology only reliance which is best equipped for economies of scale. Sadlythey do not work as advertised.  Can be transmitted and receive the omicron. Even a weddin outbreak now in your neck of the woods. Given that, mandates are not warranted at the current time.


Ps that wedding everyone masked except eating, outbreak started with a vaxxed person, health care workers mostly who were careful and knew how to wear masks, they in turn spread it to work colleagues.  Your belief system is in tatters.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Ps that wedding everyone masked except eating, outbreak started with a vaxxed person, health care workers mostly who were careful and knew how to wear masks, they in turn spread it to work colleagues.  Your belief system is in tatters.


You certainly aren’t a good listener are you.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You certainly aren’t a good listener are you.


Says the “listener” who is the partisan hack around here and never met a talking point he didn’t like.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Ps that wedding everyone masked except eating, outbreak started with a vaxxed person, health care workers mostly who were careful and knew how to wear masks, they in turn spread it to work colleagues.  Your belief system is in tatters.


Pps I love the “trust the experts” but again only when they agree with you— now you are even throwing your beloved fauci on the bus.  Can’t you see how far off the road you’ve gone?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Your post appears to be 80% insults, trash talking, and tangents.
> 
> Your only point is the errors hypothesis.  I’ll deal with that.
> 
> With respect to masks, you have already listed some possible errors: people might adjust them too often, or touch the outside.   You are essentially arguing that people are too stupid to be taught how to wear masks.
> 
> 1- Fauci already tried this argument.  It was bogus when he said it.  It is no less bogus when you say it.
> 2- The Bangladesh study included a rather large scale mask education campaign.  They got statistically significant results.  Therefore, hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi villagers are smart enough to learn how to wear masks.  Other nationalities are probably also capable.
> 
> With respect to vaccines, none of the scaling arguments can work.   Billions of people have received doses by now.  Whatever scaling problems existed, we are dealing with them.
> 
> The errors hypothesis doesn’t seem to have much legs.  We tried it on the the biggest two questions, and it goes nowhere.


You just don't understand the implications of the divide in the country. As @Grace says, you need to take people as they are not as you wish they were. The first thing that matters in an education program is trusting the message. There is no way Fauci or CNN is going to deliver any message that convinces those who don't believe in masks and/or the vaccine. It's not going to happen. It is baked in at this point. 

Unless Omicron turns out to be more dangerous than previous variants, the general trend toward behavior as it was prior to COVID will continue. I am sure there will be plenty of folks from SC County who will still wear masks when they are out of their homes for the rest of their lives regardless. Take comfort in that.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> University of Florida Faculty Senate report on challenges to academic freedom in the current Florida political climate.  Included are instances of destruction of or restricted access to research data on covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FinalReport_FacultySenateAdHocCommitteeonAF.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com


It's obvious as hell what your motive is on this forum....
Promote DNC talking points and attempt to tear down
any person who is successful at countering the DNC talking
points.
Example above and your past posts in regards to just Florida.
DeSantis is a real threat to the LIES liberals such as you and the 
rest of the Liberal Cabal espouse on a daily basis.
Your poster boy for Sal Alinsky style turmoil is now a convicted
felon 5 times over, wait till the TRUTH comes out about the
inspiration for his sick stage play is thrust upon the MSM.
That's right, Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Kim Foxx, Michele Obama
and others are going to wish they never staged/enabled that sh*t
show. It was ALL to support the worthless H.R. 35 Anti Lynching Law.
Which " They " thought would be a vehicle to the Presidency, it 
wasn't, it just created more divide in a Country they are trying to 
destroy along with YOU.
Go up old man and actually support the United States of America
for which YOU took an oath to uphold.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Brav520

When you see stuff like this , at a school with mandatory vaccinations , testing and masking you have to wonder if there really is an end game here 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/10/georgetown-prep-outbreak-covid-virtual/


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 12343


Every vaccine should start with Keith Richards DNA.  He's had to have smoked a million cigarettes in his lifetime.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Your post appears to be 80% insults, trash talking, and tangents.
> 
> Your only point is the errors hypothesis.  I’ll deal with that.
> 
> With respect to masks, you have already listed some possible errors: people might adjust them too often, or touch the outside.   You are essentially arguing that people are too stupid to be taught how to wear masks.
> 
> 1- Fauci already tried this argument.  It was bogus when he said it.  It is no less bogus when you say it.
> 2- The Bangladesh study included a rather large scale mask education campaign.  They got statistically significant results.  Therefore, hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi villagers are smart enough to learn how to wear masks.  Other nationalities are probably also capable.
> 
> With respect to vaccines, none of the scaling arguments can work.   Billions of people have received doses by now.  Whatever scaling problems existed, we are dealing with them.
> 
> The errors hypothesis doesn’t seem to have much legs.  We tried it on the the biggest two questions, and it goes nowhere.


If it feels like an insult which it is not, then look introspectively because you are denying the 
facts that are bearing out the fallacy of this whole manufactured " Crisis ".

A massive amount of human life has been sacrificed because of the denial of you and others
about the REAL origins and the proper cure for this CRIME that has been deliberately thrust
upon the planet by a cabal of evil human beings.

The TRUTH will bear out this CRIME eventually and those who swallowed the Blue pill of
evil will hang their heads in shame at the very least.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Pps I love the “trust the experts” but again only when they agree with you— now you are even throwing your beloved fauci on the bus.  Can’t you see how far off the road you’ve gone?


On the bus?  Is this a new thing?


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> When you see stuff like this , at a school with mandatory vaccinations , testing and masking you have to wonder if there really is an end game here
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/10/georgetown-prep-outbreak-covid-virtual/


It’s what’s going to be happening all over the country in blue areas in January in places that have testing in school (like lausd). The vaccines aren’t stopping omicron transmission or illness.  The ifr appears to be on par with a cold. But because we’ve gone done the testing rabbit hole, kids will be excluded for exposure and schools shut down for a cold. A once again adults will go skiing, be arm and arm in bars, have their important political meetings and be expected to work while the kids get the shaft.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> On the bus?  Is this a new thing?


 You know I type while on the rush, right now while running with the dog. Under.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> You know I type while on the rush, right now while running with the dog. Under.


with your mask on I hope !!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. I see you are trotting out the old routine of playing the victim. When you do it’s perfectly fine because you are on the side of right, but when others do it thats bad. Your double standard is obnoxious
> 
> 2. you take people as they are not how you’d like it to be. And you and your allies have been complaining about how stupid the trump supporting vaccine refusing red staters are. The fact you think you can teach people for whom you have such contempt for how to wear masks properly is laughable.
> 
> 3. education programs are also subject to the scaling problem. It’s the classic pilot program problem. The fact you think you could put the American people (including children) in front of mandatory zoom classes to learn proper mask wearing is not only laughable but your authoritarian streak is showing. I’m sure based on prior comments you’d be ok with work and store monitors correcting people who wear their masks wrong. Would work in Singapore…not here…you couldn’t even get people to work those jobs given the labor shortage or maybe you prefer the Chinese neighbor rat on neighbor.
> 
> 4. we dealt with the Bangladesh study. All that effort for so little result and such a flawed study and THAT is the best you could do.
> 
> 5. vaccines involve much less room for error. A classic technology only reliance which is best equipped for economies of scale. Sadlythey do not work as advertised.  Can be transmitted and receive the omicron. Even a weddin outbreak now in your neck of the woods. Given that, mandates are not warranted at the current time.


If you waste your time with insults instead of actually making a point, that’s your problem, not mine.

So, ignoring the irrelevant half of your post,

5- ”don’t work as advertised” is a phrase which sounds like it means more than it does.


kickingandscreaming said:


> You just don't understand the implications of the divide in the country. As @Grace says, you need to take people as they are not as you wish they were. The first thing that matters in an education program is trusting the message. There is no way Fauci or CNN is going to deliver any message that convinces those who don't believe in masks and/or the vaccine. It's not going to happen. It is baked in at this point.
> 
> Unless Omicron turns out to be more dangerous than previous variants, the general trend toward behavior as it was prior to COVID will continue. I am sure there will be plenty of folks from SC County who will still wear masks when they are out of their homes for the rest of their lives regardless. Take comfort in that.


Oh, I understand it. 

Some places will save a few lives with vaccine requirements or mask mandates.  This will happen mostly in cities with 80+% of adults already vaccinated.

Other places will do nothing.  This will happen mostly in places with 80+% of ICU beds in use.  The majority of the remaining covid deaths will happen in these areas.

That much is clear.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> When you see stuff like this , at a school with mandatory vaccinations , testing and masking you have to wonder if there really is an end game here
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/10/georgetown-prep-outbreak-covid-virtual/


I'm thinking the end game for those promoting this will be therapy.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If you waste your time with insults instead of actually making a point, that’s your problem, not mine.
> 
> So, ignoring the irrelevant half of your post,
> 
> 5- ”don’t work as advertised” is a phrase which sounds like it means more than it does.
> 
> Oh, I understand it.
> 
> Some places will save a few lives with vaccine requirements or mask mandates.  This will happen mostly in cities with 80+% of adults already vaccinated.
> 
> Other places will do nothing.  This will happen mostly in places with 80+% of ICU beds in use.  The majority of the remaining covid deaths will happen in these areas.
> 
> That much is clear.


What is also becoming clear is the damage we are doing to child development and the mental health of everyone with the mandates. Your view is consistently myopic.


----------



## N00B

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your view is consistently myopic.


Optically or Refractively Challenged would be preferred.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you waste your time with insults instead of actually making a point, that’s your problem, not mine.
> 
> So, ignoring the irrelevant half of your post,
> 
> 5- ”don’t work as advertised” is a phrase which sounds like it means more than it does.
> 
> Oh, I understand it.
> 
> Some places will save a few lives with vaccine requirements or mask mandates.  This will happen mostly in cities with 80+% of adults already vaccinated.
> 
> Other places will do nothing.  This will happen mostly in places with 80+% of ICU beds in use.  The majority of the remaining covid deaths will happen in these areas.
> 
> That much is clear.


Again the guy who throws around the subtle insults, argues from a position of contempt and then complains about stuff he doesn’t want to hear.  It’s more subtle than what the trolls do but at it’s heart it’s the same.

“not as advertised” is a perfect description of the vaccines particularly against the omicron. Not our fault the science failed.  At least it helps still with severe disease.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Again the guy who throws around the subtle insults, argues from a position of contempt and then complains about stuff he doesn’t want to hear.  It’s more subtle than what the trolls do but at it’s heart it’s the same.
> 
> “not as advertised” is a perfect description of the vaccines particularly against the omicron. Not our fault the science failed.  At least it helps still with severe disease.


Ps it’s not clear at all your prediction of lives saved/icus will take place.  The ifr for the omicron for the vaxxed so far is coming in around that of a cold. For the unvaxxed the flu.  I didn’t fully understand a paper I was reading this am and it’s in German so I didn’t post but as best as I understand it the new mutation is missing some components that create the toxicity—-> the c storms. It’s still early though so it’s still possible.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again the guy who throws around the subtle insults, argues from a position of contempt and then complains about stuff he doesn’t want to hear.  It’s more subtle than what the trolls do but at it’s heart it’s the same.
> 
> “not as advertised” is a perfect description of the vaccines particularly against the omicron. Not our fault the science failed.  At least it helps still with severe disease.


The science didn't fail.  We are significantly better off with the vaccine than before.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Ps it’s not clear at all your prediction of lives saved/icus will take place.  The ifr for the omicron for the vaxxed so far is coming in around that of a cold. For the unvaxxed the flu.  I didn’t fully understand a paper I was reading this am and it’s in German so I didn’t post but as best as I understand it the new mutation is missing some components that create the toxicity—-> the c storms. It’s still early though so it’s still possible.


If the omicron variant results in immunity to all variants to those who recover, it might be seen as an analog to the role of cowpox in the fight against smallpox.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The science didn't fail.  We are significantly better off with the vaccine than before.


Agree but again it wasn’t what was hoped for. 


espola said:


> If the omicron variant results in immunity to all variants to those who recover, it might be seen as an analog to the role of cowpox in the fight against smallpox.


Good point!  Wow you are all over the place: sometimes insightful sometimes trollish.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Agree but again it wasn’t what was hoped for.
> 
> Good point!  Wow you are all over the place: sometimes insightful sometimes trollish.


I don't rush.

As for "hoped for", show me a rational analysis written at the time that thought this vaccine was the end-all.  Covid arose by mutation from previously known wild circulating viruses.  Why would anyone think that was going to stop?


----------



## Brav520

Three Studies, One Result: Vaccines Point the Way Out of the Pandemic (Published 2021)
					

New scientific research underscores the effectiveness of vaccines and their versatility in the fight against the coronavirus.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Brav520

WAPO June 2021


*What can I do after I get vaccinated?*
*Can I return to my old activities?*
The CDC says that if you are fully vaccinated, you can resume all your usual activities without masks or physical distancing in most cases, even when you are indoors or in large groups. However, you still need to follow guidance at your workplace and any rules in effect at any businesses you visit, as well as state and local restrictions, if those are more stringent.
If you travel, you are still required to wear a mask on planes, buses, trains and other forms of public transportation.
You are considered fully vaccinated two weeks after you receive the one-dose Johnson & Johnson shot, or two weeks after the second dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine.
Even after that point, you should still watch out for symptoms of covid-19, especially if you’ve been around someone who is sick. If you have symptoms, you should get tested and stay home and away from others.
If you have a compromised immune system, or are taking medications such as steroids that weaken the immune system, you should talk to your health-care provider to discuss your activities. You may need to keep taking precautions to prevent covid-19.
You do not need to quarantine or be tested if you are exposed to the virus as long as you do not develop symptoms. Fully vaccinated employees of high-density workplaces, such as meatpacking plants, who do not have symptoms also do not need to quarantine after an exposure. But a test is recommended to be certain.
Fully vaccinated international travelers coming to the United States are still required to get tested within three days of their arrival or show documentation that they’ve recovered from covid-19 in the past three months. They should still get tested three to five days after their trip.
The CDC updated its previously more cautious guidance on May 13, citing falling infection rates in the United States and real-world evidence of the effectiveness of the coronavirus vaccines even against more contagious variantscirculating in the country. Officials also noted the rarity of breakthrough infections in those who are fully vaccinated and the lesser severity of the relatively few infections that have occurred.


----------



## Brav520

Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts
					

Can the current crop of vaccines get us to herd immunity even if variants become widespread? A Harvard immunologist says yes.




					news.harvard.edu


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't rush.
> 
> As for "hoped for", show me a rational analysis written at the time that thought this vaccine was the end-all.  Covid arose by mutation from previously known wild circulating viruses.  Why would anyone think that was going to stop?
> 
> View attachment 12346


Wow and here I thought you were blind die hard do it die right or wrong all in for herd immunity Fauci and July 4 Joe Biden.  But you are capable if critiquing them. Wow. Color me shocked man. I may have had you wrong. Even if you revert to your trollish ways at least I’m impressed by the moments of lucidity.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts
> 
> 
> Can the current crop of vaccines get us to herd immunity even if variants become widespread? A Harvard immunologist says yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.harvard.edu


They are always wrong.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow and here I thought you were blind die hard do it die right or wrong all in for herd immunity Fauci and July 4 Joe Biden.  But you are capable if critiquing them. Wow. Color me shocked man. I may have had you wrong. Even if you revert to your trollish ways at least I’m impressed by the moments of lucidity.


I have no idea what that means.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> They are always wrong.


Nonsense.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Optically or Refractively Challenged would be preferred.


I'm a man but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
- Red Green


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts
> 
> 
> Can the current crop of vaccines get us to herd immunity even if variants become widespread? A Harvard immunologist says yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.harvard.edu


Is it odd that only vaccinated individuals are considered in the % necessary for herd immunity and nothing is said about the population of individuals who are not vaccinated but survived COVID?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.





espola said:


> Nonsense.


<sigh> must you always disappoint when you are on a roll?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> What is also becoming clear is the damage we are doing to child development and the mental health of everyone with the mandates. Your view is consistently myopic.


Unvaccinated, unmasked adults go to high risk places like bars and restaurants.  In the process, they cause more covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

But, if I criticize them for it, somehow that damages child development?  

You're using kids as an excuse for the bad behavior of adults.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> <sigh> must you always disappoint when you are on a roll?


Surely you knew that was nonsense when you posted it.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is it odd that only vaccinated individuals are considered in the % necessary for herd immunity and nothing is said about the population of individuals who are not vaccinated but survived COVID?


The article includes this --

"In Manaus, Brazil, a large outbreak early in the pandemic caused scientists to conclude that nearly 70 percent of the population had been exposed and, after a lot of illness and death, the population had reached herd immunity."

Herd immunity in a population before there was a vaccine.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated, unmasked adults go to high risk places like bars and restaurants.  In the process, they cause more covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.
> 
> But, if I criticize them for it, somehow that damages child development?
> 
> You're using kids as an excuse for the bad behavior of adults.


If I follow your logic, then you are using your fear as an excuse to support mandates that damage children.

No, I am telling you mandates have effects beyond COVID and you don't recognize them. Criticize away - just don't mandate behavior - especially among children who are not at risk but are obviously bearing the brunt of the mandates.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> The article includes this --
> 
> "In Manaus, Brazil, a large outbreak early in the pandemic caused scientists to conclude that nearly 70 percent of the population had been exposed and, after a lot of illness and death, the population had reached herd immunity."
> 
> Herd immunity in a population before there was a vaccine.


Can you show me the place in the article where it describes the % vaccination AND previous exposure to reach herd immunity? It's misleading to give the herd immunity percent with just the vaccination rate.

Those places with lower vaccination rates certainly appear to have higher case rates - and I'd guess considerably higher than cases recorded as many in those areas will see no reason to get tested unless they need to go to the doctor. What is the incentive to get tested if you have mild symptoms? I'd bet many children already had COVID and were never tested as their symptoms were mild - especially in the vaccine-resistant areas. Again, what is the incentive to test?

I hope they are correct but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated, unmasked adults go to high risk places like bars and restaurants. In the process, they cause more covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.


That is always your fallback excuse.

This despite the vaxxed catch and transmit delta all over the place. This despite the fact omicron seems to not care much about vaxx status.

In other words the virus will spread either way.

Billions of people are not vaxxed and likely not going to get vaxxed.

Variants will continue to pop up and spread.

People are going to always socialize. You pretend they won't. Socialization takes place in what you call high risk places. People will always congregate.

At this point you should go to those places. Get your natural immunity on. We are seeing more and more studies showing natural immunity more robust and longer lasting.

Your solution of hiding and masks will not make this go away any faster, and in fact may slow the rate in which natural immunity builds up.

The overwhelming majority of people have no risk, which is why more and more people are going about their lives as normal.

If some is in the high risk category, get your vaxx on.

Team virus as you call us is growing. More and more people realize the gov intervention didn't help and know that they have little risk and are moving on.


----------



## Brav520

“We just shouldn’t be having these large events now. If physicians and public health professionals can’t do it, there’s just no safe way to do it.”









						Omicron in Oakland: How a Wisconsin wedding with ‘super responsible’ vaccinated people led to outbreak
					

A Wisconsin wedding celebration brought together doctors and public health experts. More...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## Brav520

No end goal , I guess some will just choose to live a bubble life forever


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated, unmasked adults go to high risk places like bars and restaurants.  In the process, they cause more covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.
> 
> But, if I criticize them for it, somehow that damages child development?
> 
> You're using kids as an excuse for the bad behavior of adults.


I find it interesting that you describe normal human interaction as "bad behavior". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "risky". We take risks every day. At this point in the US, everyone has had the opportunity to assess their risk and act accordingly. To me, there's nothing I see that doesn't make me think it's time to move forward normally - bad behavior and all. I will be watching to see if that outlook should change but that's where I am now.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Can you show me the place in the article where it describes the % vaccination AND previous exposure to reach herd immunity? It's misleading to give the herd immunity percent with just the vaccination rate.
> 
> Those places with lower vaccination rates certainly appear to have higher case rates - and I'd guess considerably higher than cases recorded as many in those areas will see no reason to get tested unless they need to go to the doctor. What is the incentive to get tested if you have mild symptoms? I'd bet many children already had COVID and were never tested as their symptoms were mild - especially in the vaccine-resistant areas. Again, what is the incentive to test?
> 
> I hope they are correct but I'm not holding my breath.


There is no magic number for herd immunity.  

I'm guessing that is not what you are looking for.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> I find it interesting that you describe normal human interaction as "bad behavior". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "risky". We take risks every day. At this point in the US, everyone has had the opportunity to assess their risk and act accordingly. To me, there's nothing I see that doesn't make me think it's time to move forward normally - bad behavior and all. I will be watching to see if that outlook should change but that's where I am now.


this virus has made a portion of our society forever risk-adverse


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Surely you knew that was nonsense when you posted it.


Yeah….I should be accustomed to you disappointing me…my bad.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> “We just shouldn’t be having these large events now. If physicians and public health professionals can’t do it, there’s just no safe way to do it.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron in Oakland: How a Wisconsin wedding with ‘super responsible’ vaccinated people led to outbreak
> 
> 
> A Wisconsin wedding celebration brought together doctors and public health experts. More...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfchronicle.com


Come on, people. Look to our leaders for leadership. They should have had it at the French Laundry. The virus doesn't hang out there so you don't need a mask. London B may have a few other suggestions for virus-free venues as well.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Come on, people. Look to our leaders for leadership. They should have had it at the French Laundry. The virus doesn't hang out there so you don't need a mask. London B may have a few other suggestions for virus-free venues as well.


that’s the thing , the people making the mandates , the people saying you should be super scared of this virus , well they aren’t actually scared of it themselves


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> this virus has made a portion of our society forever risk-adverse


It's not like we didn't see it coming - below from a decade ago.






						The wussification of American kids - The Citizen
					

Back in the spring some bureaucratic types in the Great State of New York announced plans to ban certain kid’s activities on playgrounds. Legislation was apparently introduced to “protect” kids …



					thecitizen.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> There is no magic number for herd immunity.
> 
> I'm guessing that is not what you are looking for.


My point is that simply using vaccination rate to determine herd immunity ignores those who had COVID but were not vaccinated. So, you can't simply compare areas using vaccination rate alone.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> My point is that simply using vaccination rate to determine herd immunity ignores those who had COVID but were not vaccinated. So, you can't simply compare areas using vaccination rate alone.


That may be your point but that is not the point of the article.


----------



## espola

Now for a pleasant musical interlude --


----------



## espola




----------



## espola




----------



## espola




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> You always need to throw a not so humble brag in.


Oh boo hoo.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469857035277590535


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> This is the crybaby, entitled, Karen generation. This forum is full of them.


Whiny little bitch and his ignore button after Hillary lost.  Not much has changed since.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> The boomers I remember were in the front lines of the civil rights movement, marched and protested and took political action to end an unjust war, forced a corrupt President out of office, and started the environmental movement enshrined in Earth Day.  I think you're thinking of Gen X.


Sucker


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Demanding kids carry the weight?
> 
> No.  We are asking the remaining adults to finally start carrying their fair share.
> 
> Stop hiding behind kids.  The problem is unvaccinated, unmasked *adults* going to bars, restaurants, gyms, casinos, and other high. Risk indoor locations.


Doesnʻt take much to spark up you Anti-Science nutters.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Sucker


Hey Bruddah, me and wife are in Texas to say goodbye to my wifes grandma.  Anyway, stay in Fort Stockton last night.  No mask anywhere.  People are super nice.  Met a guy from Idaho.  He said people are moving in droves from California.  The purge has begun.  Newsome is pissed off at Texas for wanting to save kids before their slaughter. So he thinks he can now ban guns just like Texas can keep kids alive.  He also said he will make California a destination to kill baby after 15 weeks if other states outlaw it after 15 weeks.  He's so committed to killing the fetus  he will find a way to pay for all expense trip for the parent(s).  This is all starting to show its great divide of souls.


----------



## crush

TV chef Gordon Ramsay ditches California, moves restaurant HQ to Texas: report
					

Add celebrity chef Gordon Ramsay to the list of people and businesses trading California for Texas.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## crush

Rumor has it Chris "I also went to Jeffrey's Island too" Wallace has retired from Fox. I wonder what they had on Chris?  Dude played his part wonderfully, just enough to piss off critical thinkers.  Q said this would be the great purge.  Deals were made a few years ago with military.  Play along and you can save face and retire and go away.  Jack made a deal too as did Billy boy and Bozo. Stay safe you guys.  Not sure about Dr. F.


----------



## crush

Oh, for those new to Q let me help you out with the facts.  Their is Q and Q+.  Then you have Anons.  Both are great.  QAnons is Deep State and dividers that make up crazy shit like JFKJr will be t VP when he comes back to rule.  Its a lie.  The fact is this was and still is the biggest Military Sting operation ever.  Were all being watched.  How will you decide to live with right and wrong?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> Hey Bruddah, me and wife are in Texas to say goodbye to my wifes grandma.  Anyway, stay in Fort Stockton last night.  No mask anywhere.  People are super nice.  Met a guy from Idaho.  He said people are moving in droves from California.  The purge has begun.  Newsome is pissed off at Texas for wanting to save kids before their slaughter. So he thinks he can now ban guns just like Texas can keep kids alive.  He also said he will make California a destination to kill baby after 15 weeks if other states outlaw it after 15 weeks.  He's so committed to killing the fetus  he will find a way to pay for all expense trip for the parent(s).  This is all starting to show its great divide of souls.


Sounds like a duck wielding a hammer and sickle.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469484968795594752


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Rumor has it Chris "I also went to Jeffrey's Island too" Wallace has retired from Fox. I wonder what they had on Chris?  Dude played his part wonderfully, just enough to piss off critical thinkers.  Q said this would be the great purge.  Deals were made a few years ago with military.  Play along and you can save face and retire and go away.  Jack made a deal too as did Billy boy and Bozo. Stay safe you guys.  Not sure about Dr. F.


sounds Like he is going to CNN +


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469484968795594752


Yep, anti-science nutters. Good thing for them that democrats way overestimate the risk. They need to feed into that fear.

"Kids can handle it. They are resilient"
- Trolls

Damn, these adults are cowards.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That may be your point but that is not the point of the article.


The point of the article was herd immunity and it makes no sense to discuss what percent needs to be vaccinated for herd immunity without considering what % of the population already had COVID and isn't vaccinated - which was the point of my original statement that you questioned.

"Is it odd that only vaccinated individuals are considered in the % necessary for herd immunity and nothing is said about the population of individuals who are not vaccinated but survived COVID?"

I'll give you the last response and leave it to Grace to find and respond to your moments of lucidity. Personally, I believe they are accidental and not in keeping with your trollish nature.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Yeah….I should be accustomed to you disappointing me…my bad.


So you prefer a yes man.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Now for a pleasant musical interlude --


My father use to sing/hum that tune and others on long horse rides as a child. One of the first songs I ever knew.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> My father use to sing/hum that tune and others on long horse rides as a child. One of the first songs I ever knew.


Im happy you had a father.  My biological dad was a no show and my bio mom gave me away just in time before the slaughter of baby crush.  Yes sir Husler, Im here to make you aware that other kids want to go on pony rides too.  You are a very very selfish person


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> My point is that simply using vaccination rate to determine herd immunity ignores those who had COVID but were not vaccinated. So, you can't simply compare areas using vaccination rate alone.


From what I have read neither the vaccine nor previous exposure to Covid provide long lasting immunity. Either having Covid or not the vaccine is extra layer of protection, but I have not read anywhere that herd immunity is even possible. The full body suits worn by the hunter in the movie Predator aren’t far off in the future for us anymore. We may be well into an era that produces basically viruses that have no true cure. Like with HIV, but of course I may be wrong. I always reserve the right to be wrong.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> The point of the article was herd immunity and it makes no sense to discuss what percent needs to be vaccinated for herd immunity without considering what % of the population already had COVID and isn't vaccinated - which was the point of my original statement that you questioned.
> 
> "Is it odd that only vaccinated individuals are considered in the % necessary for herd immunity and nothing is said about the population of individuals who are not vaccinated but survived COVID?"
> 
> I'll give you the last response and leave it to Grace to find and respond to your moments of lucidity. Personally, I believe they are accidental and not in keeping with your trollish nature.


I already pointed out the Brazilian example in the article.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> From what I have read neither the vaccine nor previous exposure to Covid provide long lasting immunity. Either having Covid or not the vaccine is extra layer of protection, but I have not read anywhere that herd immunity is even possible. The full body suits worn by the hunter in the movie Predator aren’t far off in the future for us anymore. We may be well into an era that produces basically viruses that have no true cure. Like with HIV, but of course I may be wrong. I always reserve the right to be wrong.


You have the right to be wrong and we have a right to be right.  You have been wrong since I started lurking here years ago.  The sad thing about you, you have zero humility.  Pride comes before the great fall and humility comes before honor.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I already pointed out the Brazilian example in the article.


That’s why that response puzzled we as well. Seems the response was simply a reaction to what the poster thought they thought you would think as opposed to what you actually posted.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> My father use to sing/hum that tune and others on long horse rides as a child. One of the first songs I ever knew.


When I was working as an electronics technician while in college, one of my jobs was to align a complicated stage of our sonar analyzer products.   False indications caused by the electronics, not really in the input, we called spurious signals or "spurs".  I had a xerox copy of the alignment procedure where a previous technician had written in the margin "I've got spurs that jingle jangle jingle", and sure enough if I twisted the stage out of alignment all sorts of signals popped up on the final display.


----------



## crush

ADIOS, CHRIS!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> When I was working as an electronics technician while in college, one of my jobs was to align a complicated stage of our sonar analyzer products.   False indications caused by the electronics, not really in the input, we called spurious signals or "spurs".  I had a xerox copy of the alignment procedure where a previous technician had written in the margin "I've got spurs that jingle jangle jingle", and sure enough if I twisted the stage out of alignment all sorts of signals popped up on the final display.


I will not even begin to act like I understand all that but I get the gist.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I will not even begin to act like I understand all that but I get the gist.


He got to go to college


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> I will not even begin to act like I understand all that but I get the gist.


I ran onto that video as part of the Andy Kaufman Carnegie Hall Holiday Concert.  One of the guests was the last surviving member of the pony-girl dancers.  Kaufman brought out a hobby horse toy and asked her to redo the dance in the movie.  She danced for a while and then feigned collapsing on the stage.  Kaufman eventually came out dressed as a witch doctor and raised her from the dead.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you prefer a yes man.


I prefer thoughtfulness (see evil goalie or even dad4 who actually has moved somewhat on the issues) to trolling.


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> sounds Like he is going to CNN +


He's one of the few legitimate newspersons left (although I can't think of any others offhand).  Obviously CNN is attempting to bring some credibility to their channel but its going to take much more than hiring Wallace.

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but Fox News is not the same without Wallace, Shepard and Kelly.  The trio of Tucker, Hannity and Ingraham is mind numbing.  Maybe one of those as extreme punditry, but not all three.


----------



## Desert Hound

In a sense this explains why dad and team irrational fear were always wrong. 

Wrong about how people in the real world act and react 





__





						"People around the world have been through so many alarms — both real and false — that many have been conditioned to stop fearing Covid-19 in the same way."
					

"And every trip outside the house that doesn’t result in people getting sick can serve to desensitize them further. At this point, it’s as i...




					althouse.blogspot.com


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> I will not even begin to act like I understand all that but I get the gist.


I worked there from '78 to '83, and in that short interval, we went through 4 different generations of that complicated (and error-pron) stage, with the final generation just eliminating it entirely.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why that response puzzled we as well. Seems the response was simply a reaction to what the poster thought they thought you would think as opposed to what you actually posted.


"Herd immunity" is one of those sciencey terms that get misused a lot lately.  It's not quantitative (as in a certain number) but more of a quantitative description.  It's observed, not measured.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> From what I have read neither the vaccine nor previous exposure to Covid provide long lasting immunity. Either having Covid or not the vaccine is extra layer of protection, but I have not read anywhere that herd immunity is even possible. The full body suits worn by the hunter in the movie Predator aren’t far off in the future for us anymore. We may be well into an era that produces basically viruses that have no true cure. Like with HIV, but of course I may be wrong. I always reserve the right to be wrong.



That's called a " Weasel Clause ".
And you exercise it quite often.

If you had completed or even studied in school you would be embarrassed
at the stupidity you post on this forum and try real hard to back up with 
focused insults.

Take ten minutes and go read up on some basic virology, then come back and 
admit your failings. No one will fault you if you for once admit how humiliating
it is to post/endorse the horse dung you post here as fact.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is one of those sciencey terms that get misused a lot lately.  It's not quantitative (as in a certain number) but more of a quantitative description.  It's observed, not measured.



It's NOT a description, it's FACT.

Stop intentionally lying Adam Espola Schiff.

Herd immunity | definition of herd immunity by Medical dictionary (thefreedictionary.com) 

*herd immunity*
 A measure of the transmission potential of a disease, which corresponds to the number of secondary infections produced by a typical case of an infection in a population that is totally susceptible, and can be quantified by counting the number of secondary cases following the introduction of an infection into a totally susceptible population.

Herd immunity occurs when a significant proportion of the population (or the herd) have been vaccinated, and this provides protection for unprotected individuals. The larger the number of people who are vaccinated in a population, the lower the likelihood that a susceptible (unvaccinated) person will come into contact with the infection. It is more difficult for diseases to spread between individuals if large numbers are already immune, and the chain of infection is broken.

The herd immunity threshold is the proportion of a population that need to be immune in order for an infectious disease to become stable in that community. If this is reached—for example due to immunization—then each case leads to a single new case and the infection will become stable within the population, that is, R=1. If the threshold is surpassed, then R<1 and the disease will die out.

For an epidemic to occur in a susceptible population, R0 must be >1 for the number of cases to increase. If the R0 is < 1 the number of cases decreases, as occurs when a new vaccine is introduced.

This is an important measure used in infectious disease control and immunization and eradication programmes.

Factors affecting R0
• Rate of contacts in the host population;
• Probability of infection being transmitted during contact;
• Duration of infectiousness.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> I suspect it’s more of a bureaucratic failure than a deliberate power grab.  Line the kids up, forms in the box, get your shot, get your pizza, next kid.  The exceptions are more difficult, and someone screwed up.  You probably had a couple lactose intolerant kids who got cheese, too.


Ignorance is no excuse.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is one of those sciencey terms that get misused a lot lately.  It's not quantitative (as in a certain number) but more of a quantitative description.  It's observed, not measured.


That should be " a qualitative description" .


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> He's one of the few legitimate newspersons left (although I can't think of any others offhand).  Obviously CNN is attempting to bring some credibility to their channel but its going to take much more than hiring Wallace.
> 
> I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but Fox News is not the same without Wallace, Shepard and Kelly.  The trio of Tucker, Hannity and Ingraham is mind numbing.  Maybe one of those as extreme punditry, but not all three.


No more flack from crush bro.  I have not watched news tel a vision in a long time.  Mind control is real.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> It appears you think they did this on purpose.


It appears only morons think they didn't.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470139294824255497


----------



## Desert Hound

This is an example why I don't "trust" the experts automatically.

I am always skeptical. It is the smart thing to do/be.

One cannot auto assume an expert or experts should be believed. Especially since their funding/livelihood in many cases depends on pleasing the masters above. Even more so when their funding/jobs are gov dependent.









						Investigation fails to replicate most cancer biology lab findings
					

The reliability of early-stage cancer biology research is called into question by an investigation that concludes more than half of experimental results can’t be replicated by independent scientists




					www.newscientist.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Dem governor declares COVID-19 emergency ‘over,’ says it’s ‘their own darn fault’ if unvaccinated get sick
					

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, told Colorado Public Radio on Friday that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the COVID-19 omicron variant.




					news.yahoo.com
				




Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, declared in a new interview that the COVID-19 emergency is "over" and that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the omicron variant, explaining that if people aren’t vaccinated at this point it’s their "own darn fault" if they get sick.

"The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.

"Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault," he continued. "I don't want to say that nobody [will get the virus if they’re] vaccinated, but it's very rare. Just to put it in perspective, of the about 1400 people hospitalized, less than 200 (or 16 percent) are vaccinated. And many of them are older or have other conditions. Eighty-four percent of the people in our hospitals are unvaccinated, and they absolutely had every chance to get vaccinated."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> Dem governor declares COVID-19 emergency ‘over,’ says it’s ‘their own darn fault’ if unvaccinated get sick
> 
> 
> Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, told Colorado Public Radio on Friday that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the COVID-19 omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, declared in a new interview that the COVID-19 emergency is "over" and that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the omicron variant, explaining that if people aren’t vaccinated at this point it’s their "own darn fault" if they get sick.
> 
> "The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.
> 
> "Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault," he continued. "I don't want to say that nobody [will get the virus if they’re] vaccinated, but it's very rare. Just to put it in perspective, of the about 1400 people hospitalized, less than 200 (or 16 percent) are vaccinated. And many of them are older or have other conditions. Eighty-four percent of the people in our hospitals are unvaccinated, and they absolutely had every chance to get vaccinated."


Note that this is from a state that was in the top 10 most restrictive states earlier this year.


----------



## Brav520

Guess what Jared Polis has coming up in 2022?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> This is an example why I don't "trust" the experts automatically.
> 
> I am always skeptical. It is the smart thing to do/be.
> 
> One cannot auto assume an expert or experts should be believed. Especially since their funding/livelihood in many cases depends on pleasing the masters above. Even more so when their funding/jobs are gov dependent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Investigation fails to replicate most cancer biology lab findings
> 
> 
> The reliability of early-stage cancer biology research is called into question by an investigation that concludes more than half of experimental results can’t be replicated by independent scientists
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newscientist.com


I suppose that’s true, if by “skeptic” you mean “someone who us impervious to information they don’t like”.

It’s been about 20 months.  By now, there is plenty of evidence.  Are you willing to admit that indoor bars and restaurants increase aerosol respiratory disease transmission? 

My bet is you still pretend it isn’t true.


----------



## crush

JUST IN - PM Johnson says the first UK death has been recorded "with" the Omicron variant. No further details, yet.

OMG - a single death in an entire country ... Lockdown the entire world NOW !!!


----------



## crush

The news on the tel a vision is insane.  I just heard some Gov say, "if your elderly and you have not got your booster, shame on you."


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I suppose that’s true, if by “skeptic” you mean “someone who us impervious to information they don’t like”.
> 
> It’s been about 20 months.  By now, there is plenty of evidence.  Are you willing to admit that indoor bars and restaurants increase aerosol respiratory disease transmission?
> 
> My bet is you still pretend it isn’t true.


Imagine this econonmy after 20 months of no bars/restaurants.  I get your fear of them but they aren't the boogy man you make them out to be.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> you mean “someone who us impervious to information they don’t like”.


I see you have summed up your position on things perfectly. IE despite evidence to the contrary you still want masks, distancing, etc.

Though slowly but surely there are some cracks in your opinion as reality keeps setting in.



dad4 said:


> Are you willing to admit that indoor bars and restaurants increase aerosol respiratory disease transmission?


Any place people congregate will be a transmission point. Homes being the number 1 area where transmission occurs.

In no sane world would we be shutting stuff down for 20 months or even a few months. It wouldn't make a difference.

You have this myopic view that restaurants/bars are the reason the virus spreads. Completely overlooking the fact that people have to work in countless places where the virus will spread. Grocery stores, factories, construction, etc etc. Ignoring that most people have to go in to work, and pretending that a bar or restaurant is the real cause is fantasy on your part.

Complete fantasy.

Doing stuff outside like you repeatedly advise? Another fantasy. People are not going to other people's houses and hanging in the front yard to be safe.

People have to work. That involves being with other people for long hours. People are social creatures. They are going to go out and hang out with friends.

You seem to think if we can waive away economics (we have to work) and waive away what humans naturally do, THEN we can stop the virus.


For most of us it is pretty easy to see reality. And because of that it was pretty easy very early on to know that your solutions wouldn't work.



dad4 said:


> My bet is you still pretend it isn’t true.


Wrong again. I just knew that people would always act certain ways. You looking at your models wished they would act in ways not in our nature. You live/lived in fantasy land. Your models don't work in the real world.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Dem governor declares COVID-19 emergency ‘over,’ says it’s ‘their own darn fault’ if unvaccinated get sick
> 
> 
> Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, told Colorado Public Radio on Friday that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the COVID-19 omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, declared in a new interview that the COVID-19 emergency is "over" and that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the omicron variant, explaining that if people aren’t vaccinated at this point it’s their "own darn fault" if they get sick.
> 
> "The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.
> 
> "Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault," he continued. "I don't want to say that nobody [will get the virus if they’re] vaccinated, but it's very rare. Just to put it in perspective, of the about 1400 people hospitalized, less than 200 (or 16 percent) are vaccinated. And many of them are older or have other conditions. Eighty-four percent of the people in our hospitals are unvaccinated, and they absolutely had every chance to get vaccinated."


I buy into that. As he says if you are too stupid to take care of yourself it’s your own darn fault. That of course is at the state level. I still feel private businesses have the right to make their own rules as it pertains to the “too stupid” amongst us.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Imagine this econonmy after 20 months of no bars/restaurants.  I get your fear of them but they aren't the boogy man you make them out to be.


Airflow or lack thereof is the culprit.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I buy into that. As he says if you are too stupid to take care of yourself it’s your own darn fault. That of course is at the state level. I still feel private businesses have the right to make their own rules as it pertains to the “too stupid” amongst us.


In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them.  You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them.  You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.


Yes, the government has tried to a wits end to inform people of the precautions and risks. It should be mostly out of their hands now and left to individuals to decide what they think is best. Individuals from the donut shop to the mall to school boards, etc. If you are too stupid or arrogant to comply with the wishes of others you deserve to be outcasts. And no demanding others take the same risks with their health and the health of those around them is not how proper members of society conduct themselves. That is not freedom of choice that is just dumb.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them.  You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.


I liked this quote. It's a bit too "self-responsibility" focused for the paternalistic left of CA but it does show the general trend is continuing to move away from mandates.

"The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> JUST IN - PM Johnson says the first UK death has been recorded "with" the Omicron variant. No further details, yet.
> 
> OMG - a single death in an entire country ... Lockdown the entire world NOW !!!


Yeah, I saw that as well. Johnson said it's already over 40% of the cases and will be over half by tomorrow - yet they just had the first death "attributed" to the variant. I believe there's a reason to be optimistic that the variant is significantly less deadly than prior versions. For one, there are multiple reports of milder symptoms meaning the true number of cases may be significantly underreported. Also, if there was any hint that the variant was at least as bad as prior variants, we'd have seen headlines already about the coming deaths. It is a bit tricky with vaccinations and prior infections to get a good handle on it but it's been around long enough to have a decent idea of where things are going and no one is willing to even suggest that it may be as bad or worse.









						First confirmed death from Omicron variant in UK
					

The UK has confirmed its first death from the Omicron coronavirus variant as scientists race to determine how dangerous it is. Follow here for the latest news.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Airflow or lack thereof is the culprit.


In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, the government has tried to a wits end to inform people of the precautions and risks. It should be mostly out of their hands now and left to individuals to decide what they think is best. Individuals from the donut shop to the mall to school boards, etc. If you are too stupid or arrogant to comply with the wishes of others you deserve to be outcasts. And no demanding others take the same risks with their health and the health of those around them is not how proper members of society conduct themselves. That is not freedom of choice that is just dumb.


Say again.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Imagine this econonmy after 20 months of no bars/restaurants.  I get your fear of them but they aren't the boogy man you make them out to be.


Yeah, it would be tough.   Not only would we have a smaller economic base, but we’d also still have a few hundred thousand more elderly people to care for. 

I am not saying it was only bars and restaurants.  It was anywhere people gather together indoors.  And it was worse for any place with more people, more talking, longer time, less distance, fewer masks, or poor ventilation.   Bars just happen to hit every one of those risk factors.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?


A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.

That is much better than saying “No, no.  The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties.  I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why that response puzzled we as well. Seems the response was simply a reaction to what the poster thought they thought you would think as opposed to what you actually posted.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.
> 
> That is much better than saying “No, no.  The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties.  I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“


Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric.  Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives.  We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table.  People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there.  If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric.  Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives.  We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table.  People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there.  If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.


I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months.  They steps they took were far milder than that.

Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work.  It was adult recreation.   Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months?   Sadly, the answer was no.  We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months.  They steps they took were far milder than that.
> 
> Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work.  It was adult recreation.   Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months?   Sadly, the answer was no.  We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.



and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians.  And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts.  The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.

it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months"  [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians.  And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts.  The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.
> 
> it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months"  [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]


Yeah, yeah.  Authoritarian ad-hominem.  Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.

15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults.  The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021.  Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.   

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people.  Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Yeah, it would be tough.   Not only would we have a smaller economic base, but we’d also still have a few hundred thousand more elderly people to care for.
> 
> I am not saying it was only bars and restaurants.  It was anywhere people gather together indoors.  And it was worse for any place with more people, more talking, longer time, less distance, fewer masks, or poor ventilation.   Bars just happen to hit every one of those risk factors.


Yes of course, 100% isolation would have saved some lives.  That approach would have shut most human to human contact: grocery stores, hardware stores, distribution centers (which I'm sure you leverage and continue to leverage on a weekly basis).

The overused "virus is going to virus" statement is unfortunately the only constant.  It's proven itself to be the ony constant since this whole thing began.  Lockdowns are not going to work, they were never going to work.  Human nature won't allow it. Some will comply, most will not.  Time isn't/wasn't on our side.  Rapid vaccine development didn't stand in the way of increasing deaths, the numbers this year speak to that.  It's too bad society was promised something that was nearly impossible to deliver on.  Pharma has a way of convincing government that their biased, greedy ideas will solve problems.  Remember when you were told  how the vaccines would bring everything back to normal?  July 4th BBQs in backyards with friends and families.  They were lying through their teeth, fully knowing vaccines were mediocore at best.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> As it is, we’re now just waiting for *delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people*.  Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.


This doesn't even make sense.  Upticks in vaccinted deaths and hospitalizations are happening everywhere.  Your next statement is likely that this  is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It was a silly statement a few months ago, and it remains a silly statement.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yeah, yeah.  Authoritarian ad-hominem.  Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.
> 
> 15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults.  The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021.  Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.
> 
> As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people.  Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.


a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem.  They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that.   It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part,  The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021.  It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem.  They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
> b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that.   It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part,  The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
> c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021.  It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.


" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?


Indoors?
Outdoors?
Patio?
Or is this just about selfishness?


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> This doesn't even make sense.  Upticks in vaccinted deaths and hospitalizations are happening everywhere.  Your next statement is likely that this  is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It was a silly statement a few months ago, and it remains a silly statement.


I‘m not denying that vaccinated immunocompromised people are dying.  They are.  And the rest of us could choose to prevent most of those deaths by getting vaccinated and masking up.   Expect this board to attack anyone who proposes it.

But that is not the majority of the deaths.   The vast majority of the deaths are people who were not vaccinated.  The unvaccinated risk of infection is over 5X as high as for the vaccinated.  The unvaccinated risk of death is about 14x as high as the unvaccinated.






						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov
				




I think it’s entirely fair to say that delta has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which then leaks over into the vaccinated population.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Yes of course, 100% isolation would have saved some lives.  That approach would have shut most human to human contact: grocery stores, hardware stores, distribution centers (which I'm sure you leverage and continue to leverage on a weekly basis).
> 
> The overused "virus is going to virus" statement is unfortunately the only constant.  It's proven itself to be the ony constant since this whole thing began.  Lockdowns are not going to work, they were never going to work.  Human nature won't allow it. Some will comply, most will not.  Time isn't/wasn't on our side.  Rapid vaccine development didn't stand in the way of increasing deaths, the numbers this year speak to that.  It's too bad society was promised something that was nearly impossible to deliver on.  Pharma has a way of convincing government that their biased, greedy ideas will solve problems.  Remember when you were told  how the vaccines would bring everything back to normal?  July 4th BBQs in backyards with friends and families.  They were lying through their teeth, fully knowing vaccines were mediocore at best.


There’s that all or nothing in an attempt to bolster your needs.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> " EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"


What?  We've always suspected his preferred solution is Australia, NZ, China but he's never (until now) come out and said it.  You know it, I know it, he knows it.  Instead he's danced around the issue because he hasn't wanted to point blank say it.  Again you know it, I know it, he knows it.  This despite several times he's been asked about what his preferred solution really is (which he tries to cover by saying masks + indoor dining/bars/casinos) but we all suspected was this list.  Again, per your test, its about the argument raised (and the past dishonesty with that argument) and not his character.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think it’s entirely fair to say that delta has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which then leaks over into the vaccinated population.


That's an assumption that fits your narrative that is likely not true, or only partially true.  The vaccinated can spread the virus to the vaccinated and there is zero evidence that the vaccinated can't spread it to the unvaccinated.

That's why the vaccination is primarily for your benefit in terms of protecting you from serious illness.  Anecdotal, but I know quite a number of people that have breakthrough cases, far more than I know that were infected pre-vaccination (likely because of Delta?).

If the vaccination was significantly more effective at preventing infection, you'd have a more compelling argument "for the benefit of the community".  However, its not and breakthrough infections are common.  Vaccines should be highly recommended but not mandated.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What?  We've always suspected his preferred solution is Australia, NZ, China but he's never (until now) come out and said it.  You know it, I know it, he knows it.  Instead he's danced around the issue because he hasn't wanted to point blank say it.  Again you know it, I know it, he knows it.  This despite several times he's been asked about what his preferred solution really is (which he tries to cover by saying masks + indoor dining/bars/casinos) but we all suspected was this list.  Again, per your test, its about the argument raised (and the past dishonesty with that argument) and not his character.


That statement does not directly address his character?

Lrt's see it again --

" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That statement does not directly address his character?
> 
> Lrt's see it again --
> 
> " EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"


Again, what we've suspected is that he supports the policies of China, NZ, and Oz but didn't want to come out and say it.  You saying that's something he should be ashamed of and speaks to his character?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, what we've suspected is that he supports the policies of China, NZ, and Oz but didn't want to come out and say it.  You saying that's something he should be ashamed of and speaks to his character?


No, you're saying that.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's an assumption that fits your narrative that is likely not true, or only partially true.  The vaccinated can spread the virus to the vaccinated and there is zero evidence that the vaccinated can't spread it to the unvaccinated.
> 
> That's why the vaccination is primarily for your benefit in terms of protecting you from serious illness.  Anecdotal, but I know quite a number of people that have breakthrough cases, far more than I know that were infected pre-vaccination (likely because of Delta?).
> 
> If the vaccination was significantly more effective at preventing infection, you'd have a more compelling argument "for the benefit of the community".  However, its not and breakthrough infections are common.  Vaccines should be highly recommended but not mandated.


How effective would a vaccine need to be for a mandate to have your support?  I doubt there is such a level.

Moving a gathering outside is tremendously effective at reducing transmission.  Somewhere in the 90-95% range.   An outdoor mandate is also far less intrusive than a vaccine mandate.  Moving outside ought to be a very easy decision.

But an outdoor gathering rule has never had much support here.  It tends to get responses like “people aren’t willing to do that and you can’t make us.”

If we aren’t willing to move our party to the patio, I don’t think we’re capable of much.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> How effective would a vaccine need to be for it to have your support?  I doubt there is such a level.


I fully support the vaccination with its current effectiveness.   I recommend vaccinations but that's a decision between you and your doctor.

There is a lot more than just effectiveness to be considered like side effects, course of treatment and severity of disease your vaccinating against.  But yes I don't think the government should be mandating personal medical treatment, particularly without compelling evidence.  There are some legitimate reasons not to be vaccinated and their are other courses of action to prevent you from serious disease from Covid.

The burden of proof should be on those proposing the mandates.  Hope is not a compelling reason.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, you're saying that.


Yes, I am.  I find it strangely curious that on the one hand you and he are taking it as a sleight, but on the other hand you guys (I assuming as to you, but feel free to correct the record) are curiously in favor of such policies.  Almost as if ashamed of em.   Which is it?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes, I am.  I find it strangely curious that on the one hand you and he are taking it as a sleight, but on the other hand you guys (I assuming as to you, but feel free to correct the record) are curiously in favor of such policies.  Almost as if ashamed of em.   Which is it?


You're erecting that strawman so you know right where to light it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're erecting that strawman so you know right where to light it.


Me?  You're the one that built up presumptions in something that's not even about you, and are trying to deflect criticism away because he's embarrassed by his own list.  If I'm building a strawman, you are building an entire row of scarecrows buddy.

p.s. the strawman thing...drink!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Me?  You're the one that built up presumptions in something that's not even about you, and are trying to deflect criticism away because he's embarrassed by his own list.  If I'm building a strawman, you are building an entire row of scarecrows buddy.
> 
> p.s. the strawman thing...drink!


All I did was quote your own words.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> All I did was quote your own words.


now you are out right fibbing.  You asked a question, which I answered.

I can't help it if you don't like your own rules for what is and isn't an ad.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I fully support the vaccination with its current effectiveness.   I recommend vaccinations but that's a decision between you and your doctor.
> 
> There is a lot more than just effectiveness to be considered like side effects, course of treatment and severity of disease your vaccinating against.  But yes I don't think the government should be mandating personal medical treatment, particularly without compelling evidence.  There are some legitimate reasons not to be vaccinated and their are other courses of action to prevent you from serious disease from Covid.
> 
> The burden of proof should be on those proposing the mandates.  Hope is not a compelling reason.


Most of the non-workplace vaccines “mandates” don’t actually require you to get a vaccine.  They require a vaccine if you want to do a specific thing.

The SF vaccine requirement is a good example.  You can choose to be vaccinated.  Or you can choose to avoid indoor dining.  Either course of action reduces your odds of giving covid to someone else, and either course of action is permitted.

What you can’t do is be unvaccinated while dining indoors, because that is a course of action with a higher risk of infecting other people.


----------



## Grace T.

Breaking: statewide mask mandate.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470508377948123136


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Most of the non-workplace vaccines “mandates” don’t actually require you to get a vaccine.  They require a vaccine if you want to do a specific thing.
> 
> The SF vaccine requirement is a good example.  You can choose to be vaccinated.  Or you can choose to avoid indoor dining.  Either course of action reduces your odds of giving covid to someone else, and either course of action is permitted.
> 
> What you can’t do is be unvaccinated while dining indoors, because that is a course of action with a higher risk of infecting other people.


Restricting dining indoors is arbitrary when transmission at home is significantly more likely.   I don't believe in arbitrary restrictions like masking children.  I also don't believe its the responsibility of private businesses, particularly restaurants, to verify someone's medical status and being used as a tool to enforce the government's mandates.  The mandates also discriminate against those that actually have superior immunity.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Breaking: statewide mask mandate.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470508377948123136


I guess it's not obvious to me how that will affect Santa Clara County. We currently need to wear a mask in stores. Fortunately, the virus can't get you when you are seated at a restaurant or bar, so we don't have to wear masks then - only during the dangerous walk from the front door of the establishment to the table or barstool. I assume this means San Diego will see the same restrictions as SC County - unlike at the Showcase in November where it was up to the individual store to decide.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> now you are out right fibbing.  You asked a question, which I answered.
> 
> I can't help it if you don't like your own rules for what is and isn't an ad.


"Ad hominem" translates to "at the person".  That's the only rule I need.  

I tend to ignore any post that calls me an idiot, a communist, or a child molester (those have all happened).  I figure the poster has nothing valid to say and is just trying to get away with cheap insults.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Restricting dining indoors is arbitrary when transmission at home is significantly more likely.   I don't believe in arbitrary restrictions like masking children.  I also don't believe its the responsibility of private businesses, particularly restaurants, to verify someone's medical status and being used as a tool to enforce the government's mandates.  The mandates also discriminate against those that actually have superior immunity.


Arbitrary?  Public indoor dining was one of the very first things to be identified as a transmission vector.  The rule is the opposite of arbitrary: the scope is limited to a specific high risk activity.  

If your complaint is that private indoor gatherings are unaffected, imagine how loudly you would complain if they passed a rule that affected private gatherings.  You’d hate that rule even more than you hate this one.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Breaking: statewide mask mandate.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470508377948123136


That sucks.  No one requires mask indoors in San Diego, and those that claim to do, don't enforce it.   Hospitalizations and deaths are down and flat since September in San Diego.  Data doesn't support reimplementing masking in SD.  Imagine that.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> That sucks.  No one requires mask indoors in San Diego, and those that claim to do, don't enforce it.   Hospitalizations and deaths are down and flat since September in San Diego.  Data doesn't support reimplementing masking in SD.  Imagine that.


In VC a lot of businesses that are non-chains are ignoring it.  I wonder how this is going to play out particularly in red leaning areas.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Arbitrary?  Public indoor dining was one of the very first things to be identified as a transmission vector.  The rule is the opposite of arbitrary: the scope is limited to a specific high risk activity.
> 
> If your complaint is that private indoor gatherings are unaffected, imagine how loudly you would complain if they passed a rule that affected private gatherings.  You’d hate that rule even more than you hate this one.


You do know the difference between being the first and being the most significant?  And of course that's not my complaint and you know that.  

See new statewide restriction being applied to San Diego for another arbitrary restriction.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> In VC a lot of businesses that are non-chains are ignoring it.  I wonder how this is going to play out particularly in red leaning areas.


I suspect enforcement will come from other customers (aka Karens and Brandons) and not from employees.   Small businesses are not interested in being the face diaper (see South Park) police.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> How effective would a vaccine need to be for a mandate to have your support? I doubt there is such a level.


For starters before one mandates anything there should be LONG TERM studies on it. 

It is not ethical to mandate vaccines to a population that has little actual risk to the virus.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I suspect enforcement will come from other customers (aka Karens and Brandons) and not from employees.   Small businesses are not interested in being the face diaper (see South Park) police.


The yelp and open table wars in VC are interesting.  Some businesses are breaking into the pro/anti mask camp and being skewered by the other side in the reviews.  I suspect this is going to be a particular problem in the Jefferson counties, which will outright disregard the rule.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I‘m not denying that vaccinated immunocompromised people are dying.  They are.  And the rest of us could choose to prevent most of those deaths by getting vaccinated and masking up.   Expect this board to attack anyone who proposes it.
> 
> But that is not the majority of the deaths.   The vast majority of the deaths are people who were not vaccinated.  The unvaccinated risk of infection is over 5X as high as for the vaccinated.  The unvaccinated risk of death is about 14x as high as the unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it’s entirely fair to say that delta has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which then leaks over into the vaccinated population.


Who is attacking you?  You are entitled to your opinion and your choices.  Your problem is you live in a very linear world.  There is much more nuance to this disease than you would like.  This is the first time that many people have actually experienced an event that may threaten their lives. Even practicioners are scared. 

The linear approach to the management of this disease has put us right where we are. The idea that we wait for a vaccine to save humanity is ridiculous and borderline unethical.  Early treatement of any disease is the standard.  We've decided this is not the case for this event.  Why?  

Would widespread adoption of vaccines prevented more deaths - of course.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> In VC a lot of businesses that are non-chains are ignoring it.  I wonder how this is going to play out particularly in red leaning areas.


Same as before.   Blue areas will enforce the mandate.  Red areas won’t. 

It’s the flip of immigration law.  One party likes the law and tries to help enforce it.  The other party disagrees with the law, and does their best to undermine it.



watfly said:


> I suspect enforcement will come from other customers (aka Karens and Brandons) and not from employees.   Small businesses are not interested in being the face diaper (see South Park) police.


That one depends on the area.  Around here, everyone just does it.  Enforcement is the wrong word.  In six months, I’ve only seen one person walk into a store without a mask.  The clerk offered him a free mask, and the guy said thanks.  That was it.  

Maybe other areas have people who would verbally abuse or assault the clerk in that case.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Restricting dining indoors is arbitrary when transmission at home is significantly more likely.   I don't believe in arbitrary restrictions like masking children.  I also don't believe its the responsibility of private businesses, particularly restaurants, to verify someone's medical status and being used as a tool to enforce the government's mandates.  The mandates also discriminate against those that actually have superior immunity.


It is 100% arbitrary and hardly passes the sciency test.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> There’s that all or nothing in an attempt to bolster your needs.


splain..


----------



## Brav520

"Red America has largely stopped debating any new Covid-19 measures. But Blue America has not yet figured out whether it wants normality, what it can live with, and at what cost to them electorally and economically









						A Tale of Two Democrats: Jared Polis and Kathy Hochul | National Review
					

The Colorado governor restores a sense of proportion to the Covid debates. New York’s governor shows off her ‘vaxed’ necklace and reimposes mandates.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> "Red America has largely stopped debating any new Covid-19 measures. But Blue America has not yet figured out whether it wants normality, what it can live with, and at what cost to them electorally and economically
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Tale of Two Democrats: Jared Polis and Kathy Hochul | National Review
> 
> 
> The Colorado governor restores a sense of proportion to the Covid debates. New York’s governor shows off her ‘vaxed’ necklace and reimposes mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


An article in National Review explaining Democratic thought is about as useful as NYT’s artcles explaining how Republicans think.  In both cases, the author just doesn’t get it.

Take a look at Newsom’s mask rule.  It lasts all of one month.  It’s pretty clearly trying to limit delta transmission over the holidays, and that’s about it.    

It also has no particular enforcement mechanism.  He assumes that most of us will just put on our masks.  

Now, will this work in your area?  That’s a different question.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It lasts all of one month.


I remember this dance.  Just like 14 days to slow the spread, then a month, then...well you know how it goes until Joe Biden's mask for 100 days.

The enforcement mechanism is the counties.  Some counties may defy it.  Will be curious to see if Orange, San Diego, San Bernardino go along with it, but that's the pressure point.  Then the other pressure point is either corporations (who have a compliance rule that they need to cooperate with local regs...which is why for example the chains are enforcing the mask mandate in VC while some smaller businesses are saying F it) or licensing (I suspect things have gotten lax in VC because unlike LA they aren't pulling licenses, but I have no data to support this).


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> I remember this dance.  Just like 14 days to slow the spread, then a month, then...well you know how it goes until Joe Biden's mask for 100 days.
> 
> The enforcement mechanism is the counties.  Some counties may defy it.  Will be curious to see if Orange, San Diego, San Bernardino go along with it, but that's the pressure point.  Then the other pressure point is either corporations (who have a compliance rule that they need to cooperate with local regs...which is why for example the chains are enforcing the mask mandate in VC while some smaller businesses are saying F it) or licensing (I suspect things have gotten lax in VC because unlike LA they aren't pulling licenses, but I have no data to support this).


exactly, “it’s just a month”

so, we are forever being “prepared”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I suppose that’s true, if by “skeptic” you mean “someone who us impervious to information they don’t like”.
> 
> It’s been about 20 months.  By now, there is plenty of evidence.  Are you willing to admit that indoor bars and restaurants increase aerosol respiratory disease transmission?
> 
> My bet is you still pretend it isn’t true.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470377597003567112


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> An article in National Review explaining Democratic thought is about as useful as NYT’s artcles explaining how Republicans think.  In both cases, the author just doesn’t get it.
> 
> Take a look at Newsom’s mask rule.  It lasts all of one month.  It’s pretty clearly trying to limit delta transmission over the holidays, and that’s about it.
> 
> It also has no particular enforcement mechanism.  He assumes that most of us will just put on our masks.
> 
> Now, will this work in your area?  That’s a different question.


Just a month...during prime season for a lot of indoor businesses.  Some businesses make or break is during this time period.  Insanity.

Dad4 I'll buy you takeout next time your in San Diego if it lasts only a month.

Just to add, you can't use cases spiking as an excuse for extending the mask mandate.  I fairly confident that cases will spike because of the time of the year, and masks will do nothing to stop it.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> That one depends on the area. Around here, everyone just does it. Enforcement is the wrong word. In six months, I’ve only seen one person walk into a store without a mask. The clerk offered him a free mask, and the guy said thanks. That was it.


I think a better explanation is that despite not a farming/ranch area, people in your area are sheep. Blindly wearing masks everywhere, despite not being at risk.

Polling shows that Dems extremely overestimate the actual risk if the virus. I bet this belief is even higher in your area.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Just a month...during prime season for a lot of indoor businesses.  Some businesses make or break is during this time period.  Insanity.
> 
> Dad4 I'll buy you takeout next time your in San Diego if it lasts only a month.
> 
> Just to add, you can't use cases spiking as an excuse for extending the mask mandate.  I fairly confident that cases will spike because of the time of the year, and masks will do nothing to stop it.


Why would a mask rule cut into business?

You just buy some disposables and keep them by the front desk.

Are people down there actually still abusing the wait staff whenever they ask you to mask up?  I would have hoped we'd gotten past that kind of behavior by now.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Why would a mask rule cut into business?
> 
> You just buy some disposables and keep them by the front desk.
> 
> Are people down there actually still abusing the wait staff whenever they ask you to mask up?  I would have hoped we'd gotten past that kind of behavior by now.


Because masks are bad for biz. People don't want to wear them and many avoid going to places where they are required.

Further...this mandate won't make a difference in terms of the spread. It is another useless gesture


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, the government has tried to a wits end to inform people of the precautions and risks. It should be mostly out of their hands now and left to individuals to decide what they think is best. Individuals from the donut shop to the mall to school boards, etc. If you are too stupid or arrogant to comply with the wishes of others you deserve to be outcasts. And no demanding others take the same risks with their health and the health of those around them is not how proper members of society conduct themselves. That is not freedom of choice that is just dumb.


Exactly. Socialist dumb.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would a mask rule cut into business?
> 
> You just buy some disposables and keep them by the front desk.
> 
> Are people down there actually still abusing the wait staff whenever they ask you to mask up?  I would have hoped we'd gotten past that kind of behavior by now.


Adopting Socialism has always been a source of mass murder by cowards like you.


----------



## Desert Hound

The other thing about these pointless rules.

When you listen to the pharma CEO s they talk about reduction if death. And that is true.

They don't talk much about elimination if the virus.

The reality is we are going to have to live with the virus.

Every couple of months doing a mask mandate or limiting X, isn't going to make a difference in terms of the spread.

Those actions will however hurt biz, hurt kids, etc etc.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Airflow or lack thereof is the culprit.


Shocking


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is the other thing. CA does this because of the holidays, wishing it makes a difference. It won't.

Bar and restaurant traffic will be about the same. You know what people do during the holidays? Go to people's houses. The mask thing won't change that equation. More people will be visiting friends in the #1 transmission spot.. people's houses.

And you know what people aren't going to do? Wear a mask at their friends house.  Or move activities outside.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470486998993539074


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Take a look at Newsom’s mask rule. It lasts all of one month. It’s pretty clearly trying to limit delta transmission over the holidays, and that’s about it.
> 
> It also has no particular enforcement mechanism. He assumes that most of us will just put on our masks


So this time stuff like this will make a difference?

Please.

After 2 yrs of watching stuff like this you should know it won't change the trajectory of the virus.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Lausd has officially postponed its mandate to next school year. Another mandate falls.


By the way. Shouldn't they be asked what changed ( besides the politics)?

If it was so important to mandate it, and now they backed off, they should be forced to articulate why. One assumes it was vital for safety as to their reason to mandate initially. So why the change?

If parents were not complying, that would still not change why they mandated initially. ..right?

Yes we know kids have zero risk. But despite that, these officials should be forced to explain the reasoning to mandate, and now to hold off.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> But despite that, these officials should be forced to explain the reasoning to mandate......


Shouldn't be hard for educated folks at LAUSD to articulate why they ignored the entire history of respiratory diseases caused by the 55 million year old corona virus.  Is it because it would trigger termination?  It should.  Cowards.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Why would a mask rule cut into business?
> 
> You just buy some disposables and keep them by the front desk.
> 
> Are people down there actually still abusing the wait staff whenever they ask you to mask up?  I would have hoped we'd gotten past that kind of behavior by now.


At some point, your cowardly behavior must cease.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So this time stuff like this will make a difference?
> 
> Please.
> 
> After 2 yrs of watching stuff like this you should know it won't change the trajectory of the virus.


I admit that a certain percentage of selfish people will keep the virus alive by ignoring public heath recommendations.  You will almost certainly be among them.


----------



## Desert Hound

But hey lets rush out and mandate boosters, etc now.


_An Oxford University study published on Monday *found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron* strain, suggesting that *the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected*.

The research, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, documented a "substantial fall" in the number of neutralizing antibodies among participants who received two doses of the AstraZeneca or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines.









						Two-dose vaccines don't induce enough antibodies against omicron: research
					

An Oxford University study published on Monday found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron strain, suggesting that the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected.The research, which has not yet been...




					news.yahoo.com
				



_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470377597003567112


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I admit that a certain percentage of selfish people will keep the virus alive by ignoring public heath recommendations.  You will almost certainly be among them.


Your Socialist Creed mindset that killed tens of millions.....way more than any virus.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I admit that a certain percentage of selfish people will keep the virus alive by ignoring public heath recommendations. You will almost certainly be among them.


Been watching any sports lately? Notice packed arenas/stadiums, etc?

More and more people are bowing to the reality of the virus and human nature (ie socialize).

It is precisely those reasons why lockdowns, masks, etc were never going to stop the virus.

And now they are pushing people to take boosters to try to limit delta and omicron despite the fact that vax was designed to combat alpha.

Hey...take last years flu shot to fight this new strain of flu is the thinking apparently.

_An Oxford University study published on Monday *found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron* strain, suggesting that *the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected*.

The research, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, documented a "substantial fall" in the number of neutralizing antibodies among participants who received two doses of the AstraZeneca or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines.






*Two-dose vaccines don't induce enough antibodies against omicron: research*
An Oxford University study published on Monday found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron strain, suggesting that the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected.The research, which has not yet been...





 news.yahoo.com_


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Been watching any sports lately? Notice packed arenas/stadiums, etc?
> 
> More and more people are bowing to the reality of the virus and human nature (ie socialize).
> 
> It is precisely those reasons why lockdowns, masks, etc were never going to stop the virus.
> 
> And now they are pushing people to take boosters to try to limit delta and omicron despite the fact that vax was designed to combat alpha.
> 
> Hey...take last years flu shot to fight this new strain of flu is the thinking apparently.
> 
> _An Oxford University study published on Monday *found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron* strain, suggesting that *the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected*.
> 
> The research, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, documented a "substantial fall" in the number of neutralizing antibodies among participants who received two doses of the AstraZeneca or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Two-dose vaccines don't induce enough antibodies against omicron: research*
> An Oxford University study published on Monday found that two-dose COVID-19 vaccines generate a lower antibody response against the omicron strain, suggesting that the variant could lead to more infections among the fully vaccinated and previously infected.The research, which has not yet been...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com_


Yes.  Both stadiums and hospitals are packed.  It’s quite the coincidence.  Maybe some day science will have an explanation for what’s happening.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You will almost certainly be among them.


I will be amongst those living life. 

Mask free, hanging out with people. Not worrying if the window is open or not, etc. 

Living life as it should be. Not waiting for the latest pronouncement from above about what I am allowed to do, etc. 

Try it some time.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Both stadiums and hospitals are packed.  It’s quite the coincidence.  Maybe some day science will have an explanation for what’s happening.


I guess it just depends what part of sciency things "scientist" choose to explain to you.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Both stadiums and hospitals are packed.  It’s quite the coincidence.  Maybe some day science will have an explanation for what’s happening.


Nope.  Since football season has started with full attendance cases and hospitalizations have decreased significantly.  Has to be bars and restaurants.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Nope.  Since football season has started with full attendance cases and hospitalizations have decreased significantly.  Has to be bars and restaurants.


Or at a min this is what happened. 

dad and others predicted a spike. Never happened. By their models it should have. And yet it didnt.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I guess it just depends what part of sciency things "scientist" choose to explain to you.


Most of it is pretty clear by now.

It’s a respiratory virus that spreads in indoor spaces and is dangerous mostly to older and overweight people.  If infected and unvaccinated, odds of death are less than 1%, but greater than 0.1%.  We have vaccines that reduce your odds of deaths by 90% or more, and reduce transmission by something less than that.  Masks reduce transmission, but simply being outside is considerably more effective.  Being indoors in crowded spaces increases transmission, especially if you are unmasked and talking or singing.

None of this is in serious dispute.   

Which leaves people like hound just denying basic facts, like whether covid spreads well in bars.  And you have multiple people arguing things like “well of course that would save lives.  But we aren’t going to do it, and you can’t make us.  So there.”


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Which leaves people like hound just denying basic facts, like whether covid spreads well in bars. And you have multiple people arguing things like “well of course that would save lives. But we aren’t going to do it, and you can’t make us. So there.”


You misunderstand again. 

You want to live life with conditions in place. What you advocate will not eliminate the virus. 

We are going to have to live with it. Like we do with all the other diseases we have. 

As such more and more people refuse to be limited by rules that really won't stop the virus. 

We vote to live life without pointless restrictions.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> None of this is in serious dispute.
> 
> Which leaves people like hound just denying basic facts, like whether covid spreads well in bars. And you have multiple people arguing things like “well of course that would save lives. But we aren’t going to do it, and you can’t make us. So there.”


The other thing NOT in serious dispute is that masks and social distancing, lockdowns, limiting biz will NOT eliminate the virus.

That is your key stumbling block. None of the above will eliminate it.

And yet that is what you want to do continue to do...advocate solutions that really dont work and cause more harm vs help. 

If you woke up to reality you would understand that we are simply going to have to live with the virus and MOVE ON.

If you want to get vaxxed do so.

If you have already gotten the virus you are even better protected as the studies now seem to indicate.

Either way...your solution will not eliminate the virus. Why pursue actions that make little to no difference combating the virus, but do have rather negative consequences for society as a whole. 

The rest of us look at the reality of the situation and say well those restrictions dont work, the vast vast majority have little to no risk...may as well move on and live life as normal.

And that is what you are seeing. Increasing numbers of people around the world saying enough is enough. And in the US it isn't just the red states saying that. Happening everywhere.


----------



## Desert Hound

Case in point dad about moving on. 



Then you also had yesterday CO tossing in the towel so to speak on the issue. I am sure you remember reading that. 

You can look at the trends, or try to continue to swim upstream on this.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The other thing NOT in serious dispute is that masks and social distancing, lockdowns, limiting biz will NOT eliminate the virus.


But they would if everyone would just comply!

It's pretty simple actually, to quote Colorado's governor:

*"Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault,"*


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Nope.  Since football season has started with full attendance cases and hospitalizations have decreased significantly.  Has to be bars and restaurants.


You’re arguing that the mountain doesn’t exist because the trail goes downhill.

Look behind you.  It’s still there.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> will keep the virus alive


Still clinging to COVID zero I see.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Most of it is pretty clear by now.
> 
> It’s a respiratory virus that spreads in indoor spaces and is dangerous mostly to older and overweight people.  If infected and unvaccinated, odds of death are less than 1%, but greater than 0.1%.  We have vaccines that reduce your odds of deaths by 90% or more, and reduce transmission by something less than that.  Masks reduce transmission, but simply being outside is considerably more effective.  Being indoors in crowded spaces increases transmission, especially if you are unmasked and talking or singing.
> 
> None of this is in serious dispute.
> 
> Which leaves people like hound just denying basic facts, like whether covid spreads well in bars.  And you have multiple people arguing things like “well of course that would save lives.  But we aren’t going to do it, and you can’t make us.  So there.”


And there it is in plain words.


----------



## Grace T.

A critique of how health experts have handled the pandemic, published by center for infectious disease research and policy, university of minnesota.  It actually reads like a critique of a lot of the things dad4 and the other covidians stand for.  I especially like section 3 on fake consensus: the 80% establishment rules something must be true, 20% disagree, the vocal 2% minority are considered by the 80% cranks.  Section 5, prioritizing health over truth, is another one of my favorites.  It's a good critique, and some of us have been saying a lot of this here for a while now.









						COMMENTARY: 8 things US pandemic communicators still get wrong
					

Common missteps include failure to proclaim uncertainty, fake consensus, prioritizing health over truth, failure to own mistakes, not addressing misinformation credibly and empathetically, and politicization.




					www.cidrap.umn.edu


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> But they would if everyone would just comply!
> 
> It's pretty simple actually, to quote Colorado's governor:
> 
> *"Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault,"*


Because of their own actions or the actions of someone they come in close contact with. So yes, if one takes all the precautions yet doesn’t screen all those they come in close contact with, and catches the virus from one of them, it is “their own darn fault.” And of course the vaccinated can pass the virus amongst themselves they just have a much better chance of milder symptoms and ultimate survival.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Still clinging to COVID zero I see.


Not quite.  Omicron is covid and may be able to survive in a vaxxed and masked population.   It may not do much damage, though.

Delta, on the other hand, is absolutely being kept alive by the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd.  It’s also doing the most damage, primarily to that same crowd.

I’m waiting for someone to point out that masks and other NPI are helpful because they give omicron the edge over delta.  It’s probably true, but I can’t imagine anyone important saying it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not quite.  Omicron is covid and may be able to survive in a vaxxed and masked population.   It may not do much damage, though.
> 
> Delta, on the other hand, is absolutely being kept alive by the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd.  It’s also doing the most damage, primarily to that same crowd.
> 
> I’m waiting for someone to point out that masks and other NPI are helpful because they give omicron the edge over delta.  It’s probably true, but I can’t imagine anyone important saying it.


It may be the converse is true.  London is now close to 50% omicron and it's pushing out the Delta (as the omicron did to Beta in South Africa prior).  if so, particularly among the vaxxed and the healthy, you might want them to go out and catch it.  NPIs would only prolong, not preclude, everyone catching omicron.  So far only 1 recorded death in the UK...we don't know the circumstances.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> But they would if everyone would just comply!
> 
> It's pretty simple actually, to quote Colorado's governor:
> 
> *"Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault,"*


He also said epidemiologists would recommend masks year-round to protect us from flu, etc. AND it's not the government's job to mandate people to do that any more than it is to tell them to put their coats on when it's cold outside.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Delta, on the other hand, is absolutely being kept alive by the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd. It’s also doing the most damage, primarily to that same crowd.


Again no basis in reality. You have billions of people who have yet to get a single shot. 

They are not anti vax or anti max. They live in poor/corrupt countries. 

And yet you think...hey it is the unvaxxed in CA or the US keeping the virus around. Sorry dad. This is global and billions dont have a vax, will not get a vax anytime soon, etc.

Fantasy land on your part. Par for the course.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> He also said epidemiologists would recommend masks year-round to protect us from flu, etc. AND it's not the government's job to mandate people to do that any more than it is to tell them to put their coats on when it's cold outside.


It's called logic and common sense.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re arguing that the mountain doesn’t exist because the trail goes downhill.
> 
> Look behind you.  It’s still there.


You are arguing that even though we are going downhill, we are going uphill.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You’re arguing that the mountain doesn’t exist because the trail goes downhill.
> 
> Look behind you.  It’s still there.


Sounds clever but I'm not sure what that means.  It still sounds like your kicking the can down the road, again.  AKA "Wait it could get worse".  How long should we be waiting for it get worse?  Are you not getting tired carrying those goalposts on your back?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> You are arguing that even though we are going downhill, we are going uphill.


There is not much potential left for uphill.  We have a few holiday cases in the future.  Not too long after that, delta gets squeezed out by omicron.  If it is uphill, it is the foothill on your way down the mountain.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> He also said epidemiologists would recommend masks year-round to protect us from flu, etc. AND it's not the government's job to mandate people to do that any more than it is to tell them to put their coats on when it's cold outside.


Always goes back to seatbelts.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Sounds clever but I'm not sure what that means.  It still sounds like your kicking the can down the road, again.  AKA "Wait it could get worse".  How long should we be waiting for it get worse?  Are you not getting tired carrying those goalposts on your back?


I don’t see it getting worse.  If I thought it would get worse, I would not believe that Newsom’s mask mandate will be over on Jan 16.  

I do believe the current thousand deaths per day was completely unnecessary.  But I do not believe we will see a thousand deaths per day this summer.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> There is not much potential left for uphill.  We have a few holiday cases in the future.  Not too long after that, delta gets squeezed out by omicron.  If it is uphill, it is the foothill on your way down the mountain.


Non-epidemiologist: If the number of cases is going down despite packed stadiums, how is it that packed stadiums are high risk?
Epidemiologist: It's because we had so many prior cases there's not much potential left
Non-epidemiologist: But you predicted cases would spike.
Epidemiologist: That's because we didn't know there wasn't much potential left.
Non-epidemiologist: So, how will you know in the future if an activity will produce a spike in cases?
Epidemiologist: After the activity, if there's a spike, there was potential left. If no spike, there wasn't any left.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Non-epidemiologist: If the number of cases is going down despite packed stadiums, how is it that packed stadiums are high risk?
> Epidemiologist: It's because we had so many prior cases there's not much potential left
> Non-epidemiologist: But you predicted cases would spike.
> Epidemiologist: That's because we didn't know there wasn't much potential left.
> Non-epidemiologist: So, how will you know in the future if an activity will produce a spike in cases?
> Epidemiologist: After the activity, if there's a spike, there was potential left. If no spike, there wasn't any left.


I don’t think anyone believes that stadiums alone can predict spikes while ignoring bars, restaurants, casinos, workplaces, private gatherings, and everything else.

You’re putting words in someone else’s mouth, and then complaining that they are wrong.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I don’t think anyone believes that stadiums alone can predict spikes while ignoring bars, restaurants, casinos, workplaces, private gatherings, and everything else.
> 
> You’re putting words in someone else’s mouth, and then complaining that they are wrong.


Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the one that made the supposition that full stadiums leads to full hospitals?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I don’t think anyone believes that stadiums alone can predict spikes while ignoring bars, restaurants, casinos, workplaces, private gatherings, and everything else.


And yet you blame...
- people not vaxxed
- people not using a mask
- bars/restaurants is your go to. 

The reality?

- Billions are not vaxxed and will not be any time soon
- The vaxxed are vaxxed for the Alpha variant. The vax isn't very good at stopping them from spreading or getting the Delta variant. It appears even less effective with the O. 
- So you have vaccines that are increasingly LESS helpful vs new variants
- People are social and will hang out at work, with friends, etc. 

And yet you cling to the belief this is continuing because of anti mask or anti vax people. Completely ignoring the reality of the above.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> - The vaxxed are vaxxed for the Alpha variant. The vax isn't very good at stopping them from spreading or getting the Delta variant. It appears even less effective with the O.


The early numbers our of South Africa (instead of the in lab propaganda Pfizer is spreading) seems to indicate effectiveness against disease from a 2 shot Pfizer regimen is low 30% against the omicron.  No data yet on boosters since they haven't boosted much in South Africa.  There's also a decline against severe disease to about 70% (which means the omicron might in fact just be less severe than the delta).  Nothing hard published yet...just various SA docs shooting the s on twitter.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the one that made the supposition that full stadiums leads to full hospitals?


You’re wrong.  Full stadiums are one of the many mistakes which are causing full hospitals in some states.  

I am not arguing that stadiums are the only cause of covid transmission, and you are not arguing that stadiums are the only thing we should open.  We are both using stadiums as an example.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Most of it is pretty clear by now.
> 
> It’s a respiratory virus that spreads in indoor spaces and is dangerous mostly to older and overweight people.  If infected and unvaccinated, odds of death are less than 1%, but greater than 0.1%.  We have vaccines that reduce your odds of deaths by 90% or more, and reduce transmission by something less than that.  Masks reduce transmission, but simply being outside is considerably more effective.  Being indoors in crowded spaces increases transmission, especially if you are unmasked and talking or singing.
> 
> None of this is in serious dispute.
> 
> Which leaves people like hound just denying basic facts, like whether covid spreads well in bars.  And you have multiple people arguing things like “well of course that would save lives.  But we aren’t going to do it, and you can’t make us.  So there.”


Here we go with the vaccines...Yes, vaccines do help.  It's also obvious that vaccines aren't a cure all.  As we better understand this virus, it's becoming more clear that vaccines aren't the only way to go about this.  Early intervention is almost non-existent.  Why? We certainly have the means, the minds, and the tools for early treatment.  Early treatment likely would have saved thousands and thousands of lives.  Instead hopitals have become places where people go to die.  Shame on the corporate medical community for telling people to stay home and hope their disease doesn't progress. We've taken a giant step back in care.  You should be outraged at how bad science and medicine has failed you.  

Of course respiratory viruses spread in bars.  If you are high risk, don't go.  If you have immunity and are healthy go.  You have choices.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470271294398558210


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470271606408708096


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Both stadiums and hospitals are packed.


Too bad they arenʻt packed with nurses that were exercising their rights to due process before our tyrannical government took away their right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470271606408708096


dad either won't read that, or ignore because it is on twitter. 

Won't actually think through the implications of what is being pointed out. 

By the way...look at the hospital chart in there dad.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Indoors?
> Outdoors?
> Patio?
> Or is this just about selfishness?



It's all about control.
Something you cannot do in real life, so 
you troll for control on this forum.
Grow up old man.
The D's House of Cards has collapsed as
the TRUTH is exposed.


----------



## Desert Hound

Bruddah IZ said:


> Too bad they arenʻt packed with nurses that were exercising their rights to due process before our tyrannical government took away their right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment.


Hey we are going to fire you for not taking a shot that isn't terribly good at stopping infection or spread of the delta virus and even worse vs O

Make sense?

No


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Desert Hound said:


> dad either won't read that, or ignore because it is on twitter.
> 
> Won't actually think through the implications of what is being pointed out.
> 
> By the way...look at the hospital chart in there dad.


Like espola and Husker, Dad is just eloquent nonsense.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Here we go with the vaccines...Yes, vaccines do help.  It's also obvious that vaccines aren't a cure all.  As we better understand this virus, it's becoming more clear that vaccines aren't the only way to go about this.  Early intervention is almost non-existent.  Why? We certainly have the means, the minds, and the tools for early treatment.  Early treatment likely would have saved thousands and thousands of lives.  Instead hopitals have become places where people go to die.  Shame on the corporate medical community for telling people to stay home and hope their disease doesn't progress. We've taken a giant step back in care.  You should be outraged at how bad science and medicine has failed you.
> 
> Of course respiratory viruses spread in bars.  If you are high risk, don't go.  If you have immunity and are healthy go.  You have choices.


So all or nothing or your not in and it seems you are confusing “science and medicine”with what those that hold the purse strings were willing to finance. In that case a line was drawn in the sand and more people died due to Covid or not having access to care due to financial restrictions.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> You’re wrong.  Full stadiums are one of the many mistakes which are causing full hospitals in some states.
> 
> I am not arguing that stadiums are the only cause of covid transmission, and you are not arguing that stadiums are the only thing we should open.  We are both using stadiums as an example.


In short, stadiums have airflow or they donʻt.  Paraphrasing Husker is hilarious.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hey hurry up and get a shot because of omicron.

Wait? It isn't very effective?

Wait? It is soon to be the dominant variant?

Why vax mandates/passports? The logic? 

My theory is this variation came about while someone was drinking a wonderful IPA at a brewpub. 


Dec. 13 (UPI) -- British researchers announced on Monday that studies show that the COVID-19 vaccines made by Pfizer and AstraZeneca produce *substantially fewer antibodies to fight off the Omicron variant* than they do against other variants.

The study from Oxford University said blood samples collected from more than two dozen volunteers who'd received both doses of the vaccines were tested against the Omicron variant.

Oxford University, which helped develop the AstraZeneca vaccine, said the study found that both vaccines showed a *"substantial decrease in neutralizing"* Omicron.

*"This will likely lead to increased breakthrough infections in previously infected or double vaccinated individuals*, which could drive a further wave of infection, although there is currently no evidence of increased potential to cause severe disease, hospitalization or death," said the report, posted in the journal MedRxiv.


----------



## Desert Hound

I wonder if this is the same type of "expert" class who is in charge of creating covid policies/plans?


Note the number of tornadoes and then note the pronouncement from the head of FEMA.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> So all or nothing or your not in and it seems you are confusing “science and medicine”with what those that hold the purse strings were willing to finance. In that case a line was drawn in the sand and more people died due to Covid or not having access to care due to financial restrictions.


Do you reread your posts before hitting " Enter ".


----------



## thirteenknots

Desert Hound said:


> I wonder if this is the same type of "expert" class who is in charge of creating covid policies/plans?
> 
> 
> Note the number of tornadoes and then note the pronouncement from the head of FEMA.
> 
> View attachment 12360



Fear/Stupidity, the Democrats new Normal.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> dad either won't read that, or ignore because it is on twitter.
> 
> Won't actually think through the implications of what is being pointed out.
> 
> By the way...look at the hospital chart in there dad.


I certainly agree with him that “the extremely anemic response in the entire world outside of Asia and Oceania guaranteed failure”.

I’m not sure you follow what the sentence means.  He isn’t saying that more of us should have gone out for pizza and beer in June 2020.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> I certainly agree with him that “the extremely anemic response in the entire world outside of Asia and Oceania guaranteed failure”.
> 
> I’m not sure you follow what the sentence means.  He isn’t saying that more of us should have gone out for pizza and beer in June 2020.



China/Fauci/DNC = Covid 19
Covid 19 = Destruction of Trump Economy
Destruction of Trump Economy = Stolen Election
Stolen Election = Sniffer Joe/Camelho
SnifferJoe/Camelho = Vaccine Mandates
Vaccine Mandates = 255,369 + DEAD in 9 months of 2021

If Vaccines worked why so many DEAD ?

_“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> So all or nothing or your not in and it seems you are confusing “science and medicine”with what those that hold the purse strings were willing to finance. In that case a line was drawn in the sand and more people died due to Covid or not having access to care due to financial restrictions.


Youʻre babbling.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I certainly agree with him that “the extremely anemic response in the entire world outside of Asia and Oceania guaranteed failure”.
> 
> I’m not sure you follow what the sentence means.  He isn’t saying that more of us should have gone out for pizza and beer in June 2020.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470271921124118528


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470272762002296832


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470273712452562945


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So all or nothing or your not in and it seems you are confusing “science and medicine”with what those that hold the purse strings were willing to finance. In that case a line was drawn in the sand and more people died due to Covid or not having access to care due to financial restrictions.


In most of the developed world, Science/Medicine and purse strings are kissing cousins.  This relationship has led to the vaccine or nothing approach to disease management.  We can throw in face masks as a garnish so others can say they play.  In lesser developed countries, practitioners have had to practice medicine, look at the science and use  what is available to care for their patients.  Instead, many in the west have sent their patients home then to the hosptital to die.  Interesting don't you think?


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> In most of the developed world, Science/Medicine and purse strings are kissing cousins.  This relationship has led to the vaccine or nothing approach to disease management.  We can throw in face masks as a garnish so others can say they play.  In lesser developed countries, practitioners have had to practice medicine, look at the science and use  what is available to care for their patients.  Instead, many in the west have sent their patients home then to the hosptital to die.  Interesting don't you think?


I guess the "vaccine or nothing approach to disease management" explains why we have a cancer vaccine and have not bothered with any other treatments.  And a heart disease vaccine but no other treatment.  A stroke vaccine but no other treatment.  Alzheimer's vaccine but no other treatment.  A vaccine for childbirth complications. I guess it also explains how people went from 100% certainty of death from HIV to being able to live a relatively normal life within a decade long before a vaccine existed.  And with respect to Covid specifically, I guess it explains why we don't put people on vents or oxygen, or use monoclonal antibody treatments, or provide medication like Dexamethasone, Remdesivir or even the beloved horsepaste and hydroxy q that the whiny anti-vaxxers demand as they sit on the self-made death beds they they get to lie/die in.

Yes, we "in the west" just let patients go to the hospital to die while third world countries are doing such a better job.  You are world class stupid.  I mean, honestly, you are just making up shit and have no idea what you are talking about.  Not surprising you are anti-vax.


----------



## GoldenGate

Bruddah IZ said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470273712452562945


Natural immunity is really great for 100% of people who don't die or suffer from long term complications, and also don't end up killing the people around them when they got it.  

Enjoy the CA mask mandate snowflake. You earned it.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I guess the "vaccine or nothing approach to disease management" explains why we have a cancer vaccine and have not bothered with any other treatments.  And a heart disease vaccine but no other treatment.  A stroke vaccine but no other treatment.  Alzheimer's vaccine but no other treatment.  A vaccine for childbirth complications. I guess it also explains how people went from 100% certainty of death from HIV to being able to live a relatively normal life within a decade long before a vaccine existed.  And with respect to Covid specifically, I guess it explains why we don't put people on vents or oxygen, or use monoclonal antibody treatments, or provide medication like Dexamethasone, Remdesivir or even the beloved horsepaste and hydroxy q that the whiny anti-vaxxers demand as they sit on the self-made death beds they they get to lie/die in.
> 
> Yes, we "in the west" just let patients go to the hospital to die while third world countries are doing such a better job.  You are world class stupid.  I mean, honestly, you are just making up shit and have no idea what you are talking about.  Not surprising you are anti-vax.


I love how tweedle dee gives your posts the thumbs up.

You must have hit your head this morning, we can prescribe somthing for that.  You've done a good job of putting together sentences with words you've seen on reddit.  I know you find it easy to ridicule others, which is very endearing, some would call it cute. 

Congrats on distorting words again.   Good choice of drugs, I dont' think you even graps what you typed.   Please explain your rationale for tying together drugs and ventilation and how that is part of an early treatment protocol.  I can't wait for your expert testimony - I'll make sure to pass it on. 

How am I anti vax?  I'm excited to get your take.  Figurin I'm world class stupid, please tell me how you chose the drugs to use as an example of an early treatment regimen.  What exactly is horsepaste?  How is being ventilated considered an early treatment?  Are you confused with the different methods of supplementing oxygen in a patient?

I'm pretty sure you  are vaxxed and boosted, likely with moderna - it would explain a lot.  Let's work on your temperment, it will make it easier for your body to finish off the excess spike proteins in your body.  The less spike proteins, the less angry you are.  It's a win win for all.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Natural immunity is really great for 100% of people who don't die or suffer from long term complications, and also don't end up killing the people around them when they got it.
> 
> Enjoy the CA mask mandate snowflake. You earned it.


drama


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Natural immunity is really great for 100% of people who don't die or suffer from long term complications, and also don't end up killing the people around them when they got it.
> 
> Enjoy the CA mask mandate snowflake. You earned it.


Funny how by rebelling against something they made it worse (for everyone, but of course that’s none of their concern as they don’t even realize they are included in that) and have prolonged all the suffering (again, for everyone, including them of course). Like with small children they need to learn to take their punishment, do their chores, do their homework, eat their vegetables, take their medicine whatever the case may be at the time, be a big boy/girl and move on with your life. The sooner it’s done the sooner things move on . . . or we can just keep stepping back to again, again.


----------



## Brav520

so if everyone gets vaccinated ( which will never happen), we just move on. Hmmm, not so sure about that


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> I love how tweedle dee gives your posts the thumbs up.
> 
> You must have hit your head this morning, we can prescribe somthing for that.  You've done a good job of putting together sentences with words you've seen on reddit.  I know you find it easy to ridicule others, which is very endearing, some would call it cute.
> 
> Congrats on distorting words again.   Good choice of drugs, I dont' think you even graps what you typed.   Please explain your rationale for tying together drugs and ventilation and how that is part of an early treatment protocol.  I can't wait for your expert testimony - I'll make sure to pass it on.
> 
> How am I anti vax?  I'm excited to get your take.  Figurin I'm world class stupid, please tell me how you chose the drugs to use as an example of an early treatment regimen.  What exactly is horsepaste?  How is being ventilated considered an early treatment?  Are you confused with the different methods of supplementing oxygen in a patient?
> 
> I'm pretty sure you  are vaxxed and boosted, likely with moderna - it would explain a lot.  Let's work on your temperment, it will make it easier for your body to finish off the excess spike proteins in your body.  The less spike proteins, the less angry you are.  It's a win win for all.


Another endearing quality he has is his incessant whining about whiny people.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how by rebelling against something they made it worse (for everyone, but of course that’s none of their concern as they don’t even realize they are included in that) and have prolonged all the suffering (again, for everyone, including them of course). Like with small children they need to learn to take their punishment, do their chores, do their homework, eat their vegetables, take their medicine whatever the case may be at the time, be a big boy/girl and move on with your life. The sooner it’s done the sooner things move on . . . or we can just keep stepping back to again, again.











						Gen Z Is Done With the Pandemic
					

Though the specter of a new variant hangs over the holidays, young people have no plans to lock themselves down again.




					amp.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> .  In lesser developed countries, practitioners have had to practice medicine, look at the science and use  what is available to care for their patients.  Instead, many in the west have sent their patients home then to the hosptital to die.  Interesting don't you think?


I probably would have died at the start of this had my MD (before it had been approved as a treatment) not given me heavy doses of steroids.  Why?  Because even if it wasn't "authorized" yet, it's what made sense from his experience of practicing medicine.

Even more, my MD father had the forethought when this was still in China and Japan on the cruise ship to stock up on predisone "just in case" we needed it.


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> Gen Z Is Done With the Pandemic
> 
> 
> Though the specter of a new variant hangs over the holidays, young people have no plans to lock themselves down again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.theatlantic.com


First off, I'm not sure how this qualifies as news...file under "bigger no shit".  Secondly, this isn't just a GenZ phenomena, its pretty much the mentality with everyone outside of the Bay Area.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> so if everyone gets vaccinated ( which will never happen), we just move on. Hmmm, not so sure about that


That is great reasoning to support not getting vaccinated. Almost as good as claiming that natural immunity is 100% effective for the people it is effective for. And that horse paste and prayer warriors are all that's necessary.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> so if everyone gets vaccinated ( which will never happen), we just move on. Hmmm, not so sure about that


It's the perfect thing to say because they can never be proved wrong. It's what people do when they are frustrated with the outcome of their previous predictions.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> That is great reasoning to support not getting vaccinated. Almost as good as claiming that natural immunity is 100% effective for the people it is effective for. And that horse paste and prayer warriors are all that's necessary.


your therapist is stealing from you


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how by rebelling against something they made it worse (for everyone, but of course that’s none of their concern as they don’t even realize they are included in that) and have prolonged all the suffering (again, for everyone, including them of course). Like with small children they need to learn to take their punishment, do their chores, do their homework, eat their vegetables, take their medicine whatever the case may be at the time, be a big boy/girl and move on with your life. The sooner it’s done the sooner things move on . . . or we can just keep stepping back to again, again.


who is they?  and how do they affect you?  Living linear is no way to live.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's the perfect thing to say because they can never be proved wrong. It's what people do when they are frustrated with the outcome of their previous predictions.


NBA shutting down games , colleges shutting down campuses . Places with vaccine mandates

im starting to think some people just don’t want to move on


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> That is great reasoning to support not getting vaccinated. Almost as good as claiming that natural immunity is 100% effective for the people it is effective for. And that horse paste and prayer warriors are all that's necessary.


Yea, that's exactly the intepretation of what was said.  you win so much.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> I probably would have died at the start of this had my MD (before it had been approved as a treatment) not given me heavy doses of steroids.  Why?  Because even if it wasn't "authorized" yet, it's what made sense from his experience of practicing medicine.
> 
> Even more, my MD father had the forethought when this was still in China and Japan on the cruise ship to stock up on predisone "just in case" we needed it.


Good physicians can do wonders with off label.  The scared ones think they work for the CDC and FDA.


----------



## GoldenGate

Brav520 said:


> NBA shutting down games , colleges shutting down campuses . Places with vaccine mandates
> 
> im starting to think some people just don’t want to move on


If you're talking about you and your anti-vax/mask douchebuddies, then you are correct some people just don't want to move on.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> If you're talking about you and your anti-vax/mask douchebuddies, then you are correct some people just don't want to move on.


Must be internet hour at the padded walls facility


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Gen Z Is Done With the Pandemic
> 
> 
> Though the specter of a new variant hangs over the holidays, young people have no plans to lock themselves down again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.theatlantic.com


There’s that all or nothing belief system all ya all count on.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> who is they?  and how do they affect you?  Living linear is no way to live.


Acting ignorant may be cool with your crowd but it just looks silly from here.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> Natural immunity is really great for 100% of people who don't die or suffer from long term complications, and also don't end up killing the people around them when they got it.
> 
> Enjoy the CA mask mandate snowflake. You earned it.


The Cowards Creed beautifully recited here GG.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Acting ignorant may be cool with your crowd but it just looks silly from here.


I'll leave you alone, you are all about tribalism - enjoy.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

GoldenGate said:


> I guess the "vaccine or nothing approach to disease management" explains why we have a cancer vaccine and have not bothered with any other treatments.  And a heart disease vaccine but no other treatment.  A stroke vaccine but no other treatment.  Alzheimer's vaccine but no other treatment.  A vaccine for childbirth complications. I guess it also explains how people went from 100% certainty of death from HIV to being able to live a relatively normal life within a decade long before a vaccine existed.  And with respect to Covid specifically, I guess it explains why we don't put people on vents or oxygen, or use monoclonal antibody treatments, or provide medication like Dexamethasone, Remdesivir or even the beloved horsepaste and hydroxy q that the whiny anti-vaxxers demand as they sit on the self-made death beds they they get to lie/die in.
> 
> Yes, we "in the west" just let patients go to the hospital to die while third world countries are doing such a better job.  You are world class stupid.  I mean, honestly, you are just making up shit and have no idea what you are talking about.  Not surprising you are anti-vax.


Husker's competition in the whiny little bitch event.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> There’s that all or nothing belief system all ya all count on.


Gen Z is a part of your tribe..


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> I'll leave you alone, you are all about tribalism - enjoy.


His all or nothing comes from his one size fits mindset.  Socialist have been singing the same Siren song as they murdered millions.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how by rebelling against something they made it worse (for everyone, but of course that’s none of their concern as they don’t even realize they are included in that) and have prolonged all the suffering (again, for everyone, including them of course). Like with small children they need to learn to take their punishment, do their chores, do their homework, eat their vegetables, take their medicine whatever the case may be at the time, be a big boy/girl and move on with your life. The sooner it’s done the sooner things move on . . . or we can just keep stepping back to again, again.


Flat earthin' it again eh?


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> I guess the "vaccine or nothing approach to disease management" explains why we have a
> 
> A} cancer vaccine and have not bothered with any other treatments.
> B) And a heart disease vaccine but no other treatment.
> C) A stroke vaccine but no other treatment.
> D) Alzheimer's vaccine but no other treatment.
> E) A vaccine for childbirth complications.
> F) I guess it also explains how people went from 100% certainty of death
> from HIV to being able to live a relatively normal life within a decade long
> before a vaccine existed.
> 
> And with respect to Covid specifically, I guess it explains why we don't put people on
> 
> 1) vents or
> 2) oxygen, or
> 3) use monoclonal antibody treatments, or
> 4) provide medication like Dexamethasone,
> 5) Remdesivir or
> 6) even the beloved horsepaste and hydroxy q
> that the whiny anti-vaxxers demand as they sit
> on the self-made death beds they they get to lie/die in.
> 
> Yes, we "in the west" just let patients go to the hospital to die while third
> world countries are doing such a better job.
> 
> You are world class stupid.
> 
> I mean, honestly, you are just making up shit and have no idea
> what you are talking about.  Not surprising you are anti-vax.


You have got to be one of the drug addled homeless that keeps San Fran
human feces patrols busy. 

That's some kind of " World Class Squirrel Prattle " you've managed to post.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> I'll leave you alone, you are all about tribalism - enjoy.


Yeah, that’s the ticket lol!


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

My neck of the woods.








						Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
					

EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...




					www.kusi.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Just got back from Texas and drove through a gnarly storm coming down the hill on the 8.  Stay safe out there.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah, that’s the ticket lol!


Iʻll buy you a ticket to New Zealand and put you out in the paddock with the rest of the sheep.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Politicians know best, they are the obvious choice to decide public health matters . . . Oh, wait? Lol! Only if we agree with them.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Politicians know best, they are the obvious choice to decide public health matters . . . Oh, wait? Lol! Only if we agree with them.


So you obviously agree with Newsom's mask mandate?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Bill Wells for CA. Governor


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Politicians know best, they are the obvious choice to decide public health matters . . . Oh, wait? Lol! Only if we agree with them.


Youʻre a coward.  Why wouldnʻt you stand behind one?  Good point.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> So you obviously agree with Newsom's mask mandate?


Don’t assume . . . and if it’s so “obvious” why is that in the form of a question


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So you obviously agree with Newsom's mask mandate?


Boris Johnson's doing much the same.

Omicron's short doubling time means a much higher case peak.  So, fewer hospitalizations per case, but more cases per day.  They could still have a resource shortage at NHS.

So they're trying to flatten the curve.  The inevitable mockery is assumed.  But it's still the right policy.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Damn you, it's not enough that you rubbed in getting the better vaccine.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> Don’t assume . . . and if it’s so “obvious” why is that in the form of a question


Hanapaa!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Omicron's short doubling time means a much higher case peak.  So, fewer hospitalizations per case, but more cases per day.  They could still have a resource shortage at NHS.


Youʻre babbling.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Acting ignorant may be cool with your crowd but it just looks silly from here.


From you perspective:


----------



## crush

"I Think We Will Need A Fourth Dose” Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla
					

Jews Archive: https://earthnewspaper.com/category/jews Pfizer Archive: https://earthnewspaper.com/category/pfizer Donate And Support My Work: https://earthnewspaper.com/donate Dozens Of Articles And Videos Published Daily: https://EarthNewspaper.…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> From you perspective:
> 
> View attachment 12363


Don’t be upset just go clean up your room.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Downtown cafe for a beer. I'm buying


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> So they're trying to flatten the curve. The inevitable mockery is assumed. But it's still the right policy.


Hurry up and get vaxxed it will help....

Wait...never mind on the help part.









						J&J Shot Loses Antibody Protection Against Omicron in Study
					

Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine produces virtually no antibody protection against the omicron variant in a laboratory experiment.




					www.bloombergquint.com


----------



## Desert Hound

A new variant is spreading around the world and will be the predominant strain.

Better start freaking out again. Honey were is my useless mask? Should we distance even more?

I know our efforts haven't stopped any of the other strains...and this one could be the big one.

Or not.....





__





						Omicron wave may be no worse than a flu pandemic, says former government adviser
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Listen to the fear peddled in this article.

Then think about what is happening so far.

- mild symptoms
- fewer hospitalizations compared to delta
- etc.

And with that in mind...read the article. They are acting as if the new variant soon to be dominant is terrible and big changes must be made.

https://apnews.com/article/health-new-york-syracuse-6686dfd1111baea6fb54791a26d232b4


----------



## Bruddah IZ

baldref said:


> Downtown cafe for a beer. I'm buying


Do we just walk in and ask “which one of you bald guys is buyin’”?


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Listen to the fear peddled in this article.
> 
> Then think about what is happening so far.
> 
> - mild symptoms
> - fewer hospitalizations compared to delta
> - etc.
> 
> And with that in mind...read the article. They are acting as if the new variant soon to be dominant is terrible and big changes must be made.
> 
> https://apnews.com/article/health-new-york-syracuse-6686dfd1111baea6fb54791a26d232b4


Presented by Moderna....

If you happened to catch the Suns game last night, how many times was that term used by the announcers?


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Presented by Moderna....
> 
> If you happened to catch the Suns game last night, how many times was that term used by the announcers?


I will have to ask one of my kids who is always watching.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> A new variant is spreading around the world and will be the predominant strain.
> 
> Better start freaking out again. Honey were is my useless mask? Should we distance even more?
> 
> I know our efforts haven't stopped any of the other strains...and this one could be the big one.
> 
> Or not.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron wave may be no worse than a flu pandemic, says former government adviser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


They know the symptoms are milder than Alpha or Delta.

The problem is the doubling time for cases.  Omicron in Europe is doubling every 2-3 days instead of every 2-3 weeks.

This means the peak will get compressed into a much smaller time.  If it ends up being a normal flu season, compressed into 2 weeks, that’s a real problem.  Our health care system cannot handle an entire flu season compressed into 2 weeks.

UK is currently giving us a preview of what this means.  We should know by early January whether it is a problem.  If NHS has trouble keeping up, expect Watfly to be right that the CA mask mandate gets extended.


----------



## Bubba

Was watching Bill Maher on with Chris C on CNN , not a fan of Chris C and Bill Maher seems more like a old time liberal.
But Bill was correct when he said "We were sick before we were sick" . 80 percent of deaths were people who were obese and with high blood pressure and diabetes or other as I call them first world diseases. God forbid someone gets told to lose weight, eat better and exercise . We promote  plus size models now.

 I pop in on this thread once and while so sorry if I am repeating something already hashed out . Writing this quickly as I prepare to double mask to pickup 3 large Fraps and a box of dozen doughnuts for our 3 person office


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> They know the symptoms are milder than Alpha or Delta.
> 
> The problem is the doubling time for cases.  Omicron in Europe is doubling every 2-3 days instead of every 2-3 weeks.
> 
> This means the peak will get compressed into a much smaller time.  If it ends up being a normal flu season, compressed into 2 weeks, that’s a real problem.  Our health care system cannot handle an entire flu season compressed into 2 weeks.
> 
> UK is currently giving us a preview of what this means.  We should know by early January whether it is a problem.  If NHS has trouble keeping up, expect Watfly to be right that the CA mask mandate gets extended.


Of course we will look to the UK and Europs as opposed to SA. Much more panic coming from across the pond.  SA is certainly seeing a steep increase in cases but severity of disease and hosptitalization aren't following suit.  Yes, let's wait 2 weeks, then another 2 weeks.. then..well you get the point.  And please don't rely on reporting from organziations external to SA.  SA has been extremely transparent and honest on reporting severity of disease and case increase.  SA is doing a good job so far in channeling their inner Aaron Rodgers. 

Prevalence of natural immunity in SA likely is helping them, as is their low median age. We will see how this plays out and how much more panic we can generate here.  Already seeing elective surgeries being postponed here in AZ across many health systems.  

What percentage of flu stricken patients do you think are hospitalized every year?  CDC has data but it's very, very broad and not well understood. Omicron appears to be more like the common cold than a debilating flu.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Also 33...




LaTonya Bonseigneur, a first cousin who grew up with Thomas, so close they considered themselves siblings, told The Associated Press that the family believes he *died from a seizure.*

"He had been suffering from *seizures for over a year*, and we believe he had a *seizure when he was showering*," Bonseigneur said early Friday. "We're not sure when he died. We just spoke with him yesterday."


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Of course we will look to the UK and Europs as opposed to SA. Much more panic coming from across the pond.  SA is certainly seeing a steep increase in cases but severity of disease and hosptitalization aren't following suit.  Yes, let's wait 2 weeks, then another 2 weeks.. then..well you get the point.  And please don't rely on reporting from organziations external to SA.  SA has been extremely transparent and honest on reporting severity of disease and case increase.  SA is doing a good job so far in channeling their inner Aaron Rodgers.
> 
> Prevalence of natural immunity in SA likely is helping them, as is their low median age. We will see how this plays out and how much more panic we can generate here.  Already seeing elective surgeries being postponed here in AZ across many health systems.
> 
> What percentage of flu stricken patients do you think are hospitalized every year?  CDC has data but it's very, very broad and not well understood. Omicron appears to be more like the common cold than a debilating flu.


What makes you think omicron has multiple 2 week windows in it?   Doubling time is too short for that.  What ever it is or isn’t, it should have quieted down well before Valentine’s Day.

Which is both good and bad.  Over quickly, but not much time to change course if your initial policy fails.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> My neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill Wells: City of El Cajon will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
> 
> 
> EL CAJON (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate, mirroring a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


I know this puts Covidians knickers in a wad, but he is not banning masks.  He is simply putting the decision back in the hands of businesses and individuals.  If your uncomfortable going into a business that doesn't require masks, then don't go in.  And on the flipside, if you don't want to support a business that requires masks, then don't.  It's really that simple, its personal choice regardless of politics.  If the left wasn't so dedicated to promoting a victim mentality this wouldn't even be an issue.

Personally, I'll support a business either way.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> Downtown cafe for a beer. I'm buying


Urbn?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I know this puts Covidians knickers in a wad, but he is not banning masks.  He is simply putting the decision back in the hands of businesses and individuals.  If your uncomfortable going into a business that doesn't require masks, then don't go in.  And on the flipside, if you don't want to support a business that requires masks, then don't.*  It's really that simple*, its personal choice regardless of politics.  If the left wasn't so dedicated to promoting a victim mentality this wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> Personally, I'll support a business either way.


Not really bro.  The sad truth is business owners and their employees are now being asked to enforce a mandate that is not a law and is 100% against personal rights.  I know someone who know someone who was told that he would be fired December 23rd if he didnt submit to ALL the shots and future boosters.  He lost his shit at work and freaked everyone out.  The owner didnt know what to do.  He called her Hitler and all sorts of names. This was a month ago.  Dude never got the shot and owner is now working on a better approach and told him to just keep it under the low.  So she is making others take the Jab but this guy lost his marbles and their letting him stay and no jab.  You see how this works?  This was not in CA btw.  This is truly all about division and I'm really sad for all of us on whatever side your on.  So sad   I feel for all the managers who not only have to deal the youth of today but also all the fear and enforcements.  My empathy to everyone   I will wear mask after today if asked to.  I'm at work at a diner that is not enforcing me or anyone to wear a mask.  They are all masked up though and I feel sad for the workers an managers and all of us.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I know this puts Covidians knickers in a wad, but he is not banning masks.  He is simply putting the decision back in the hands of businesses and individuals.  If your uncomfortable going into a business that doesn't require masks, then don't go in.  And on the flipside, if you don't want to support a business that requires masks, then don't.  It's really that simple, its personal choice regardless of politics.  If the left wasn't so dedicated to promoting a victim mentality this wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> Personally, I'll support a business either way.


The purpose of the mask mandate is to limit the size of a holiday delta spike.  You can’t really make that decision on a city by city basis.  Extra cases from transmission in El Cajon will clearly affect cases and bed availability in La Mesa.  The cities in each region need to be on the same page.

It’s a fair argument that the state ought to let large counties or regions choose their own path.  But delegating communicable disease policy to the personal level is just silly- in the same way that letting each person write their own fire code would be silly.


----------



## Brav520

Do mask mandates work?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's the perfect thing to say because they can never be proved wrong. It's what people do when they are frustrated with the outcome of their previous predictions.


Actually, the impact of 100% vaccination can be determined with a high degree of accuracy.  That is exactly what the right kinds of expert epidemiologists and statisticians do.  But you are making the case for the stupidity of relying on God to save you.  It's great how people claim that something that is absolutely provable isn't "provable" based solely on the fact that it hasn't happened in front of their own eyes, but then they turn around and believe in some fake all powerful being in the sky who, despite all the efforts of all the prayer warriors in the world, hasn't saved a single dumbfuck from their anti-vax/mask stupidity.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The purpose of the mask mandate is to limit the size of a holiday delta spike.  You can’t really make that decision on a city by city basis.  Extra cases from transmission in El Cajon will clearly affect cases and bed availability in La Mesa.  The cities in each region need to be on the same page.
> 
> It’s a fair argument that the state ought to let large counties or regions choose their own path.  But delegating communicable disease policy to the personal level is just silly- in the same way that letting each person write their own fire code would be silly.


Yeah we really missed the boat when we didnt ban sex during the AIDS crisis.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, the impact of 100% vaccination can be determined with a high degree of accuracy.  That is exactly what the right kinds of expert epidemiologists and statisticians do.  But you are making the case for the stupidity of relying on God to save you.  It's great how people claim that something that is absolutely provable isn't "provable" based solely on the fact that it hasn't happened in front of their own eyes, but then they turn around and believe in some fake all powerful being in the sky who, despite all the efforts of all the prayer warriors in the world, hasn't saved a single dumbfuck from their anti-vax/mask stupidity.


Still tilting at windmills.  I give you credit for being consistent.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Still tilting at windmills.  I give you credit for being consistent.


Based on my spiritual calculations, Golden Gate "The Great EOTL" is 100% atheist and elitist=?  I give you credit sir for being true to yourself.  You never sugar coat your beliefs and I respect you for that.  Wat Fly is agnostic.  Crush is 100% a believer in God almighty and his power to get us through this.  We do admit we need some help and a Ruler to rule us with truth and justice.  We all know who that is and I can;t wait for his Gr8t return.  Wat Fly, you can't sit on the fence of life too much longer.  I love you guys and thanks for playing the game of life with me.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Yeah we really missed the boat when we didnt ban sex during the AIDS crisis.


weird comparison, but then again the advise was condoms (aka masks for a correlation) I suppose.

Maybe correlate it to the measles vaccine, where the stated objective was that we needed 95%+ vaccinated to eliminate measles; we achieved that. More recently people have stopped getting the vaccine, so we've fallen below the 95% and holy cr@p, guess what ... there have been measles outbreaks - whodathunkit!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The purpose of the mask mandate is to limit the size of a holiday delta spike.  You can’t really make that decision on a city by city basis.  Extra cases from transmission in El Cajon will clearly affect cases and bed availability in La Mesa.  The cities in each region need to be on the same page.
> 
> It’s a fair argument that the state ought to let large counties or regions choose their own path.  But delegating communicable disease policy to the personal level is just silly- in the same way that letting each person write their own fire code would be silly.


La Mesans don't intermingle with El Cajonians, actually no one intermingles with El Cajonians.

So based on your position you would be in favor of a mandate for the HPV vaccine?  It's over 99% effective and would eliminate 70% of cervical cancer.  The Covid vaccine doesn't come anywhere close to that effectiveness.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Yeah we really missed the boat when we didnt ban sex during the AIDS crisis.


We did close the bath houses.  It was quite contentious at the time.  There were plenty of people who made your argument about personal choice and individual risk assessment.

Early in the crisis, that is.  Ten years later, the “I can do whatever I want” crowd had either changed their minds or died.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> weird comparison, but then again the advise was condoms (aka masks for a correlation) I suppose.
> 
> Maybe correlate it to the measles vaccine, where the stated objective was that we needed 95%+ vaccinated to eliminate measles; we achieved that. More recently people have stopped getting the vaccine, so we've fallen below the 95% and holy cr@p, guess what ... there have been measles outbreaks - whodathunkit!


Admittedly weird, I was being hyperbolic.

The measles vaccine is incredibly more effective than the Covid vaccine and the measles vaccine wasn't mandated for school children until years after it was developed.  Same for the Polio vaccine.

Where the measles vaccine was implemented in the 60"s it was effective in very short order.   It was proposed to be eliminated by 1982, but was not declared eliminated by US health authorities until 2000.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> weird comparison, but then again the advise was condoms (aka masks for a correlation) I suppose.


Which still came down to a choice.  We didn't have 3rd parties enforcing the use of condoms.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> La Mesans don't intermingle with El Cajonians, actually no one intermingles with El Cajonians.
> 
> So based on your position you would be in favor of a mandate for the HPV vaccine?  It's over 99% effective and would eliminate 70% of cervical cancer.  The Covid vaccine doesn't come anywhere close to that effectiveness.


The higher effectiveness for HPV vaccine makes personal choice more feasable.  A family really can protect their daughter by getting the shot.  

The catch is, it’s really hard to ask a father to view his 14 year old daughter as someone who might be having sex.  A good friend of mine in high school got cervical cancer before the vaccine was developed.  She was in her 20s, but she was active in high school.   Had the vaccine been around, the dad probably would have declined it and explained that his daughter was a good Catholic girl.  Good kid, good dad.  Just not talking on that one issue.

A HPV vaccine mandate might help kids like that.  At a minimum, the 14 year old kid should be able to get the HPV shot without parental permission.   No need for teenagers to get cancer just because dad can’t handle who his kid really is.


----------



## Grace T.

Wuhan lab leak 'now the most likely origin of Covid', MPs told
					

Dr Alina Chan says there is also a risk that Covid-19 is an engineered virus




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Which still came down to a choice.  We didn't have 3rd parties enforcing the use of condoms.


I thought they did, at least for bathhouses when they reopened.  Maybe someone else here knows for sure.


----------



## Brav520

I believe they had Golden Gate going to the bathhouses and yelling at them to “stop having unprotected sex you stupid dumbfuck douchebags”


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Which still came down to a choice.  We didn't have 3rd parties enforcing the use of condoms.


We also didn't have people exposing their genitals in grocery stores.

Well, not much, anyway.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, the impact of 100% vaccination can be determined with a high degree of accuracy.  That is exactly what the right kinds of expert epidemiologists and statisticians do.  But you are making the case for the stupidity of relying on God to save you.  It's great how people claim that something that is absolutely provable isn't "provable" based solely on the fact that it hasn't happened in front of their own eyes, but then they turn around and believe in some fake all powerful being in the sky who, despite all the efforts of all the prayer warriors in the world, hasn't saved a single dumbfuck from their anti-vax/mask stupidity.


100% vaccination of who for what?  Smarty pants. 

Of all people on this forum, you are the one that is in need of some sort of powerful being in the sky.  How you get there is on you.  There are powerful plants that can help you on your journey that don't need prescriptions. If you want to go the prescribed route, there are options. I promise you will feel better about yourself and how you relate to others.   The first step is acceptance, gets easier from there.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We did close the bath houses.  It was quite contentious at the time.  There were plenty of people who made your argument about personal choice and individual risk assessment.
> 
> Early in the crisis, that is.  Ten years later, the “I can do whatever I want” crowd had either changed their minds or died.


What's interesting is the ACLU was dead set against the closure of bath houses for, among other things, personal freedom and privacy rights.  Whereas, right wingers (likely the religious ones) were all for the closure of bath houses.  My how far we've come.

The difference with the closure of bath houses (many proposed but most were not implemented) is that that was clearly was a primary source of the spread of the virus because that's where a lot of the activity that spread the virus occurred.  Which is not remotely comparable to Covid in terms of a source (despite your protestations in regards to restaurants and bars.)  At the time, AIDS/HIV was a death sentence with no known effective treatment or cure.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> *What makes you think omicron has multiple 2 week windows in it*?   Doubling time is too short for that.  What ever it is or isn’t, it should have quieted down well before Valentine’s Day.
> 
> Which is both good and bad.  Over quickly, but not much time to change course if your initial policy fails.


I don't, I was being facetious.  We've heard the two week timetable for lagging indicators since this whole thing started.  It's become a cry wolf scenario.   SA is well into it's Omicron wave.  It's likely Omicron has been circulating for sometime.  Fingers crossed that it remains on its current trend.  
Unfortunately governments can't let a manufactured emergency go to waste.  We should certainly keep an eye on this but reaction has been interesting to say the least.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The higher effectiveness for HPV vaccine makes personal choice more feasable.


So because the Covid vaccine is far less effective we have to mandate?  That makes zero sense.  But yes because it is less effective our government is forcing, coercing and bribing people to get it because the vaccine isn't good enough to speak for itself.   That's the point that Team Virus is trying to make with regards to the propriety of the mandates.


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> I believe they had Golden Gate going to the bathhouses and yelling at them to “stop having unprotected sex you stupid dumbfuck douchebags”


I don't want to speak for GG, but I believe he is a firm supporter of the ACLU and since he follows a narrative I'm speculating that he would have been against closing bathhouses.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow some colleagues of mine (triple vaxxed) have just come down with a suspected COVID case at a wedding they attended with mass breakthroughs (they are over 30 people now....almost everyone there vaccinated and boosted and except for a meal masked....suspecting omicron).  The colleague I talked to thought it was allergies at first but has taken a turn for the worse.  I have a bad feeling about January in California....schools will be effectively shut down with mass quarantines due to exposure, lots of business will have to temporarily shutter due to mass people getting sick.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Admittedly weird, I was being hyperbolic.
> 
> The measles vaccine is incredibly more effective than the Covid vaccine and the measles vaccine wasn't mandated for school children until years after it was developed.  Same for the Polio vaccine.
> 
> Where the measles vaccine was implemented in the 60"s it was effective in very short order.   It was proposed to be eliminated by 1982, but was not declared eliminated by US health authorities until 2000.


I'm not comparing effectiveness of the vaccines, as obviously they are for completely different things and not comparable. It's always struck me that the COVID "vaccines" should not have been called "vaccines", but rather COVID "shots", aka the flu shot. *They* are directly comparable and nobody expects the flu shot to be a cure all. Labelling them as "vaccines" has made people think they should be 100% effective, which they never were (& never claimed to be).

Someone should have engaged some (modern) marketing people who could have explained to them that people nowadays expect instant everything, including an instant fix to a pandemic, and if that doesn't happen then they get very upset.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So because the Covid vaccine is far less effective we have to mandate?  That makes zero sense.  But yes because it is less effective our government is forcing, coercing and bribing people to get it because the vaccine isn't good enough to speak for itself.   That's the point that Team Virus is trying to make with regards to the propriety of the mandates.


A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not.  A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status.  No reason for a mandate in that case.  

A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough.  The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity.  The mandate becomes more appealing.

Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”.    Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I don't, I was being facetious.  We've heard the two week timetable for lagging indicators since this whole thing started.  It's become a cry wolf scenario.   SA is well into it's Omicron wave.  It's likely Omicron has been circulating for sometime.  Fingers crossed that it remains on its current trend.
> Unfortunately governments can't let a manufactured emergency go to waste.  We should certainly keep an eye on this but reaction has been interesting to say the least.


“cry wolf?”

You have 800,000 people dead in the US and an estimated 15 million dead worldwide.

How many people have to die before you can admit that there is really a wolf?  

Are you waiting for an even million in the US?  Or are you waiting for the international estimate to hit 20 million?


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I'm not comparing effectiveness of the vaccines, as obviously they are for completely different things and not comparable. It's always struck me that the COVID "vaccines" should not have been called "vaccines", but rather COVID "shots", aka the flu shot. *They* are directly comparable and nobody expects the flu shot to be a cure all. Labelling them as "vaccines" has made people think they should be 100% effective, which they never were (& never claimed to be).
> 
> Someone should have engaged some (modern) marketing people who could have explained to them that people nowadays expect instant everything, including an instant fix to a pandemic, and if that doesn't happen then they get very upset.


Agreed.  While maybe not advertised as 100% effective, they were unquestionably oversold as prevention of infection.  The initial message from leadership was clearly you could ditch the mask if you get vaccinated.  I appreciate that things change, but it wasn't the general public's fault that the "vaccination" wasn't understood.  What are we going to be oversold next by our government?  Are masks already there?  A lots comes down to credibility and our government continues to lose it during the pandemic.  Which leads more people to demand personal choice.









						Fully vaccinated? You can ditch the mask, CDC says
					

"We have all longed for this moment," said the CDC's director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> La Mesans don't intermingle with El Cajonians, actually no one intermingles with El Cajonians.
> 
> So based on your position you would be in favor of a mandate for the HPV vaccine?  It's over 99% effective and would eliminate 70% of cervical cancer.  The Covid vaccine doesn't come anywhere close to that effectiveness.


east county FTW!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not.  A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status.  No reason for a mandate in that case.
> 
> A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough.  The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity.  The mandate becomes more appealing.
> 
> Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”.    Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.


That's a reasonable argument; however, the vaccine is just not working that way even if mandated.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> east county FTW!


Truth be told my mailing address is El Cajon, but I live in unincorporated San Diego County.  The sign on my street says "Welcome to the Community of Mt. Helix".  So I go with Mt Helix, ha ha.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Truth be told my mailing address is El Cajon, but I live in unincorporated San Diego County.  The sign on my street says "Welcome to the Community of Mt. Helix".  So I go with Mt Helix, ha ha.


I am also unincorporated. in the late 70s, I dated spring valley sally


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow some colleagues of mine (triple vaxxed) have just come down with a suspected COVID case at a wedding they attended with mass breakthroughs (they are over 30 people now....almost everyone there vaccinated and boosted and except for a meal masked....suspecting omicron).  The colleague I talked to thought it was allergies at first but has taken a turn for the worse.  I have a bad feeling about January in California....schools will be effectively shut down with mass quarantines due to exposure, lots of business will have to temporarily shutter due to mass people getting sick.


Not just CA.  Nationwide for mid January.  We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week.   That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20.  Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.

Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger.  With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down.   The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected.   That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.  

The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Not just CA.  Nationwide for mid January.  We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week.   That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20.  Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.
> 
> Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger.  With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down.   The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected.   That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.
> 
> The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.


do mask mandates work?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> 100% vaccination of who for what?  Smarty pants.
> 
> Of all people on this forum, you are the one that is in need of some sort of powerful being in the sky.  How you get there is on you.  There are powerful plants that can help you on your journey that don't need prescriptions. If you want to go the prescribed route, there are options. I promise you will feel better about yourself and how you relate to others.   The first step is acceptance, gets easier from there.


This is gr8t bro.  I heard of this amazing medicine man that uses the earth and it's plants and herbs to help one go deep.  I think it's time for GG to go down the Rabbit Hole.  PM me GG and I can have you two meet up for deep shamanic time


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> do mask mandates work?


Masks work if you wear them.   

If people in your area follow the rules, the mask mandate works.  People see the mandate, and change their behavior.  The changes happen even in places where the mandate does not apply.  The dinner party becomes a backyard barbecue, because the hosts want their guests to feel comfortable.

If you live near people who look for every possible loophole, don’t expect much from the mandate.  People will work around it.  Dinner at a restaurant becomes an indoor dinner party at someone’s house.  No benefit.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Agreed.  While maybe not advertised as 100% effective, they were unquestionably oversold as prevention of infection.  The initial message from leadership was clearly you could ditch the mask if you get vaccinated.  I appreciate that things change, but it wasn't the general public's fault that the "vaccination" wasn't understood.  What are we going to be oversold next by our government?  Are masks already there?  A lots comes down to credibility and our government continues to lose it during the pandemic.  Which leads more people to demand personal choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fully vaccinated? You can ditch the mask, CDC says
> 
> 
> "We have all longed for this moment," said the CDC's director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


The problem, as I see it, is that people expect the "government" to have the answer, or health experts I suppose in this instance, and for that answer to be absolute. The issue is that health experts don't have an absolute answer, just a well informed opinion, based on their expertise and the information to hand, at that point in time. If the information changes, then the answer / opinion may change, or not. A new variant, such as omicron means new information, but even that takes time to collate - but nobody wants to give them that time, rather they want an answer now ... and they really want that answer to be the one they agree with.

I'm pretty sure governments all over the world are well and truly done with this, and would like nothing better than for it to be gone or normalized. Governments (democratic ones at least) are not generally in favor of continually implementing unpopular policies again and again.

WRT the vaccines, none were sold as 100% effective. I understood that, it was literally talked about and printed non-stop. With delta, the first Q was would the existing vaccines be effective and the answer was yes, but not as much. We then learned that they were probably less effective than that BUT that they were 6+ more effective than none to prevent hospitalization, reduced infection time by half or more and 11+ times more effective (if hospitalized) in preventing death - so better to have than not. The jury is out on omicron, but we'll know more each day as more information gets collected. The news so far is positive in that more contagious but less serious, from what I can tell.

Omicron is also the 13th major mutation, afaik, given the major mutations are given a Greek number (and they skipped nu & xi), so good thing that its not every major mutation that's causing major angst.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Masks work if you wear them.
> 
> If people in your area follow the rules, the mask mandate works.  People see the mandate, and change their behavior.  The changes happen even in places where the mandate does not apply.  The dinner party becomes a backyard barbecue, because the hosts want their guests to feel comfortable.
> 
> If you live near people who look for every possible loophole, don’t expect much from the mandate.  People will work around it.  Dinner at a restaurant becomes an indoor dinner party at someone’s house.  No benefit.


Again, "change their behavior" is not a policy prescription.  It's preaching for people to do better (preaching BTW rarely in history has won over everyone....mass conversions have typically occurred through force and coercion).

We have kind of a back way admission from you here that mask mandates at least don't work.  I'll take it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not just CA.  Nationwide for mid January.  We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week.   That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20.  Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.
> 
> Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger.  With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down.   The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected.   That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.
> 
> The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.


The red states don't care.  They'll have some labor problems caused by kids having to be out of school and businesses too sick to shut down.  The damage in the south might be limited by seasonality (south africa, which is out of season, may already be in decline based on early results from hard hit provinces).  They are treating it like a bad cold.

The blue states are in for a world of hurt though, and that's the protocols doing that (school/work), not just the virus.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not.  A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status.  No reason for a mandate in that case.
> 
> A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough.  The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity.  The mandate becomes more appealing.
> 
> Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”.    Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.


Hey here's a question for you on this.  So would you support a flu shot vaccine mandate?  Yeah, I know, the flu shot can be notoriously bad (but the COVID vaccine seems to be as well for omicron, and like the COVID shot, the main benefit of the flu shot seems to be priming your system to get a less serious case).  But given kids can get seriously sick and die from the flu, isn't it logical to extend the issue to the flu shot, particularly in a bad flu season.  After all, think of the children?


----------



## Grace T.

Some colleges (including 100% vaxxed Cornell) are moving to all remote.  Since it's exam season, it's mostly exams being moved.  There is no offramp.









						Princeton, Cornell, Others Urge Students to Head Home Because of Covid-19 Outbreaks
					

Several colleges and universities have shifted to remote exams as the Omicron variant spreads in the U.S.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> The problem, as I see it, is that people expect the "government" to have the answer, or health experts I suppose in this instance, and for that answer to be absolute. The issue is that health experts don't have an absolute answer, just a well informed opinion, based on their expertise and the information to hand, at that point in time. If the information changes, then the answer / opinion may change, or not. A new variant, such as omicron means new information, but even that takes time to collate - but nobody wants to give them that time, rather they want an answer now ... and they really want that answer to be the one they agree with.
> 
> I'm pretty sure governments all over the world are well and truly done with this, and would like nothing better than for it to be gone or normalized. Governments (democratic ones at least) are not generally in favor of continually implementing unpopular policies again and again.
> 
> WRT the vaccines, none were sold as 100% effective. I understood that, it was literally talked about and printed non-stop. With delta, the first Q was would the existing vaccines be effective and the answer was yes, but not as much. We then learned that they were probably less effective than that BUT that they were 6+ more effective than none to prevent hospitalization, reduced infection time by half or more and 11+ times more effective (if hospitalized) in preventing death - so better to have than not. The jury is out on omicron, but we'll know more each day as more information gets collected. The news so far is positive in that more contagious but less serious, from what I can tell.
> 
> Omicron is also the 13th major mutation, afaik, given the major mutations are given a Greek number (and they skipped nu & xi), so good thing that its not every major mutation that's causing major angst.


I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated.  Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them.  We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare.  If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.

I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection.  However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions.  Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility.  Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government.  I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.


----------



## Grace T.

Good news, bad news here.  The Pfizer pill works remarkably well even against the omicron.  The problem is that there's not going to be enough of it to go around.  There's also not a lot that we can do to triage this thing....you can't give it just to the extremely ill because by then it's too late....they'll probably wind up having to ration it to the elderly.  Which means unless someone can figure out a way to increase 10m doses, (I'm not holding my breath....if anything the pandemic has illustrated the incompetence of everything), it's not the silver bullet we hoped.  









						Pfizer’s Covid Pill Works Well, Company Confirms in Final Analysis
					

The treatment, called Paxlovid, is likely to work against Omicron and could be available in the United States before the end of the year.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again, "change their behavior" is not a policy prescription.  It's preaching for people to do better (preaching BTW rarely in history has won over everyone....mass conversions have typically occurred through force and coercion).
> 
> We have kind of a back way admission from you here that mask mandates at least don't work.  I'll take it.


Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.

Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature.  You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.
> 
> Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature.  You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.


There's no new evidence here, at least as far as masks goes.  There's hardly any evidence at all (except a really flawed Bangladesh study that seems to indicate intervention is necessary, and no effect for the under 50 and cloth masks), quite a bit (almost all pre-COVID) against, and a lot of real world data showing it doesn't make much of difference.   That means you are basically taking it on faith that the experts (who have gotten so much wrong during the pandemic) are basically right about this.  That's religion dude, not science.

And history shows us that preaching doesn't do very much to change opinions when it comes to matters of faith.  Most major faith changes have come at the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.
> 
> Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature.  You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.


p.s. still really curious...would you mandate the flu shot ever?  Bad flu season for example or even just in general or even just in kids?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Good news, bad news here.  The Pfizer pill works remarkably well even against the omicron.  The problem is that there's not going to be enough of it to go around.  There's also not a lot that we can do to triage this thing....you can't give it just to the extremely ill because by then it's too late....they'll probably wind up having to ration it to the elderly.  Which means unless someone can figure out a way to increase 10m doses, (I'm not holding my breath....if anything the pandemic has illustrated the incompetence of everything), it's not the silver bullet we hoped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer’s Covid Pill Works Well, Company Confirms in Final Analysis
> 
> 
> The treatment, called Paxlovid, is likely to work against Omicron and could be available in the United States before the end of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


What leads you to think of rationing?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What leads you to think of rationing?


What do you mean?  I'm having a hard time seeing where you are confused.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The red states don't care.  They'll have some labor problems caused by kids having to be out of school and businesses too sick to shut down.  The damage in the south might be limited by seasonality (south africa, which is out of season, may already be in decline based on early results from hard hit provinces).  They are treating it like a bad cold.
> 
> The blue states are in for a world of hurt though, and that's the protocols doing that (school/work), not just the virus.


Of course the red states won’t care.  They didn’t care last time until they found out they can’t hire enough travel nurses.  This time, I doubt they will do much unless they run out of oxygen.  Four weeks later, it will be over and they will go back to not caring.  

Don’t buy in too deeply into the SA comparison.  Young, thin, and summer are not likely to be a good predictor for old, fat, and winter.  Wait for the UK reports.  They’ll be here soon enough.


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> Do mask mandates work?


For certain people it makes them feel more comfortable when they're out in public.  So yes they work!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> p.s. still really curious...would you mandate the flu shot ever?  Bad flu season for example or even just in general or even just in kids?


A 1918 event is enough for me to support flu vaccine passports.   I don’t count that as a mandate, because each person can choose simply to avoid high risk places.


----------



## Grace T.

Bit of a semi-crazy rant that makes an interesting point.  COVID protocols did not necessarily come to being because of the science behind them, but because of a human psychological trait against contamination.  We've seen it before in anti-GMO hysteria, the AIDS crisis (Magic Johnson and the Princess Diana hug), anti-gay hysteria, racial discrimination, treatment of the handicapped, and even kids games of cooties.  Interesting point, if said somewhat unhinged.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470971630994219013


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A 1918 event is enough for me to support flu vaccine passports.   I don’t count that as a mandate, because each person can choose simply to avoid high risk places.


Kid's can't....they have to go to school....so you are going to say then we should mandate flu vaccines for kids in school (on the grounds we mandate them other stuff) or are you going to say "they can just homeschool" or some combination of both?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> There's no new evidence here, at least as far as masks goes.  There's hardly any evidence at all (except a really flawed Bangladesh study that seems to indicate intervention is necessary, and no effect for the under 50 and cloth masks), quite a bit (almost all pre-COVID) against, and a lot of real world data showing it doesn't make much of difference.   That means you are basically taking it on faith that the experts (who have gotten so much wrong during the pandemic) are basically right about this.  That's religion dude, not science.
> 
> And history shows us that preaching doesn't do very much to change opinions when it comes to matters of faith.  Most major faith changes have come at the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.


Yet most epidemiologists think they work.  Funny that.

So, maybe the vast majority of scientists have no clue what they are talking about within their own discipline.

Or maybe one humanities major is having trouble understanding research papers which build on science classes she never took.

I‘m going with option 2.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated.  Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them.  We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare.  If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.
> 
> I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection.  However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions.  Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility.  Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government.  I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.


You're a good man Wat Fly.  I got on you early on only because I actually care about you.  You slapped me around when I was going through my call for help and I needed a few rebukes and smack backs.  Thanks btw . All my true friends got jabbed bro. I swear. They did it because they trusted and they wanted to go back to normal. Normal is no more and trust is hard to find these days in some people. You get what you think now bro. Whatever you want to create for yourself and your little clan or tribe ((as long as its goodly and Godly)). I wish you and I and Baldref could meet up for a pop over by Mount Helix some day. My son is kicking ass over at State btw. Super proud of him. These kids have had it hard the last few years. My pal is not happy because he did three shots already for the team and now he's sick again. I swear dude has been sick three times in last 9 months. This time he's been out for a few days. Me? A little sniffle and a little cough ((I stayed home for two days because I didnt want dad types to get all freaked out from my cough)) in last 24 months. That is it. I 100% give my wife credit and my Lord & Savior Yeshua for not falling ill like others I know that got jabbed or were living unhealthy life style. Booze is not good right now. Whatever is going on, it's not good. We all want what is right and those WHO do wrong will continue to want to do wrong. The people I know truly WHO are getting sick all those who have health issues and or obesity and also got jabbed. I love Texas but man, I saw way too many obese folks and the kids too. Not all but you all know what I'm talking about. I had some of my wife side of her family wonder how and why I got so thin. I told them my secret and about no meat and it was not well received......They love their steak and I get that. They asked how I did and i told them the truth. To each his own too. They all looked at me like I was a weirdo from CA....lol. I love them all and they love me and we love


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not. A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status. No reason for a mandate in that case.


This is going to throw you for a loop dad. It takes one of your big crutches away from you.

From the CDC.

_The newly released report showing that *vaccinated people can still be superspreaders* drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.

*The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people*, the CDC said Friday._

With that in mind....that takes the last shreds of the logic of the vax mandate. The vaxxed can still be super spreaders. The vaxxed spread at the same rate as the unvaxxed. It also removes your thought that IF the unvaxxed just got vaxxed this would all be over. 

Now that does not negate the fact that as of now, getting vaxxed will help those at high risk of being hospitalized and/or getting very sick. 

_"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. "_









						CDC report shows vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 - Roll Call
					

A newly released Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report shows that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders.




					www.rollcall.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yet most epidemiologists think they work.  Funny that.
> 
> So, maybe the vast majority of scientists have no clue what they are talking about within their own discipline.
> 
> Or maybe one humanities major is having trouble understanding research papers which build on science classes she never took.
> 
> I‘m going with option 2.


Don't you hear yourself?  Your entire argument is the experts (who have only 1 really deeply flawed study to go on which doesn't even show what you think it shows at a minimum with respect to cloth masks) should be trusted because they know better (and despite having beclowned themselves throughout this).

You have faith in them.  This is a faith based argument.  You are never going to convince people who don't believe in your faith (particularly after the prophet's failure to turn his water into wine).  What you are left with, like the religions of old, is force.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What do you mean?  I'm having a hard time seeing where you are confused.


Paywall kept me out of the NYT article, so I read several other sources.  None mentioned supply problems.  One article said the Feds already have purchased 10 million courses of treatment (by which I assume they mean multiple-pill doses); Pfizer says they will have plenty.

"Pfizer has said it expects to manufacture 180,000 treatment courses by the end of next month and at least 50 million courses by the end of 2022."









						U.S. to buy 10 mln courses of Pfizer's COVID-19 pill for $5.3 bln
					

Pfizer Inc said on Thursday the U.S. government would pay $5.29 billion for 10 million courses of its experimental COVID-19 antiviral drug, as the country rushes to secure promising oral treatments for the disease.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> This is going to throw you for a loop dad. It takes one of your big crutches away from you.
> 
> From the CDC.
> 
> _The newly released report showing that *vaccinated people can still be superspreaders* drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.
> 
> *The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people*, the CDC said Friday._
> 
> With that in mind....that takes the last shreds of the logic of the vax mandate. The vaxxed can still be super spreaders. The vaxxed spread at the same rate as the unvaxxed. It also removes your thought that IF the unvaxxed just got vaxxed this would all be over.
> 
> Now that does not negate the fact that as of now, getting vaxxed will help those at high risk of being hospitalized and/or getting very sick.
> 
> _"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. "_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC report shows vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 - Roll Call
> 
> 
> A newly released Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report shows that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollcall.com


This has been obvious for a while but Governors needed cover for their recent mask mandates so "poof" there it is.  Get ready for Omicron booster mandates.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Don't you hear yourself?  Your entire argument is the experts (who have only 1 really deeply flawed study to go on which doesn't even show what you think it shows at a minimum with respect to cloth masks) should be trusted because they know better (and despite having beclowned themselves throughout this).
> 
> You have faith in them.  This is a faith based argument.  You are never going to convince people who don't believe in your faith (particularly after the prophet's failure to turn his water into wine).  What you are left with, like the religions of old, is force.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Paywall kept me out of the NYT article, so I read several other sources.  None mentioned supply problems.  One article said the Feds already have purchased 10 million courses of treatment (by which I assume they mean multiple-pill doses); Pfizer says they will have plenty.
> 
> "Pfizer has said it expects to manufacture 180,000 treatment courses by the end of next month and at least 50 million courses by the end of 2022."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. to buy 10 mln courses of Pfizer's COVID-19 pill for $5.3 bln
> 
> 
> Pfizer Inc said on Thursday the U.S. government would pay $5.29 billion for 10 million courses of its experimental COVID-19 antiviral drug, as the country rushes to secure promising oral treatments for the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


The 50 million is on a worldwide basis.  You don't think they would be all going to the US?

p.s. Matt Yglesias and some on the left are floating the idea of the US seizing the patent from Pfizer (presumably for a price) and freeing it to the world.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Kid's can't....they have to go to school....so you are going to say then we should mandate flu vaccines for kids in school (on the grounds we mandate them other stuff) or are you going to say "they can just homeschool" or some combination of both?


If we have a flu that is as dangerous to kids as the 1918 flu?  I would absolutely support a flu shot mandate for schools.  

Did you think 1918/1919 was just an ordinary bad flu year?  It killed three times as many people as World War 1.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated.  Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them.  We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare.  If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.
> 
> I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection.  However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions.  Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility.  Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government.  I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.


I have a healthy, I would say, distrust of government, mainly because its led by politicians and I have zero real trust for any politician. I trust the medical profession far more and have several doctor friends and in-laws and listen to them far more than any advice from government.

I also got vaccinated for personal protection. I dislike masks, and prefer not to wear one, but will if needed.

With respects to being healthy etc. - from my personal experience; my 83 year old mother got Covid pre-vaccine and it was touch and go. She was/is healthy, but old. An 8 day hospital stay and a couple of months at home and she was good again. She is vaccined up now. My 14 year old niece also got Covid. It was mild and she seemed to recover quickly. She was a multi sport athlete ... was, because she now has long Covid, can only make school for 3 days a week before she is exhausted (sleeping 20 hours per day for a couple of days, to recover) and all sports are out. We don't know when she will recover.

IMO, everyone should treat the virus with "respect". It doesn't care if you are healthy or not, or if you don't know you are not ... just look at Erickson & Aguero - professional soccer players both with pre-existing heart conditions that they didn't know about despite how many medicals over their careers.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The 50 million is on a worldwide basis.  You don't think they would be all going to the US?
> 
> p.s. Matt Yglesias and some on the left are floating the idea of the US seizing the patent from Pfizer (presumably for a price) and freeing it to the world.


The current new hospitalization rate is about 7,000/day in the US.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> This has been obvious for a while but Governors needed cover for their recent mask mandates so "poof" there it is. Get ready for Omicron booster mandates.


Well they are looking for ways to fight this...

No not the fact that the vaxxed spread the virus...but fighting to prevent people from knowing the truth. And Twitter is there to help keep the masses uninformed.


_Twitter will begin imposing penalties on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website’s terms of service.

“When tweets include misleading information about Covid-19, we may place a label on those tweets that includes corrective information about that claim,” the website notes in a section detailing its rules about Covid-19 misinformation. *“We may apply labels to tweets that contain, for example… false or misleading claims that people who have received the vaccine can spread or shed the virus (or symptoms, or immunity) to unvaccinated people.”*_









						Twitter to Penalize Users Who Claim Vaccinated People Can Spread Covid-19
					

Twitter will begin imposing penalties up to a permanent ban on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website's terms of service.




					www.mediaite.com


----------



## crush

*Breaking ... Cornell University goes remote after reporting over 900 COVID cases this week, VP for University Relations Joel Malina says "virtually every" case has been found in fully-vaccinated students, many of whom received the booster shot - CNN *

I bet they will be traced back to some family member over Thanksgiving or a Pub that was not vaxxed 100%.  I actually see something that has me praying for everyone in our country, vaxxed or non vax.  Were all in this together and we all need to lend a helping hand.  Regardless of your politics, people who got jabbed are the one's getting sick.  The non jabbed that are getting sick is because their not healthy.  No one healthy get's sick.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If we have a flu that is as dangerous to kids as the 1918 flu?  I would absolutely support a flu shot mandate for schools.
> 
> Did you think 1918/1919 was just an ordinary bad flu year?  It killed three times as many people as World War 1.


As to kids, flu kills more of them than COVID does.  So it's the sheer number of people you worry about?  Presumably then, if the IFR for the omicron does indeed (yeah I know...early...wait for the UK...there's also some interest data that because it attacks the bronchi more efficiently than the lungs it might also take longer to hit critical) falls to the level of the flu, and everyone catches the omicron (for which vaccine deployment will be too late), the need then for a COVID vaccine would no longer exist if 100,000 elderly people die every year from it and its just endemic?  28,000 died in the moderate flu year of 2018 (sometimes the number can hit for the US as high or over 50,000).  Your argument for vaccines then is "yeah you might have to take 4 or more but eventually it becomes optional once the numbers aren't as high?"


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The current new hospitalization rate is about 7,000/day in the US.


What part of the drug is most effective before the patient is hospitalized didn't you understand?  The choice if there isn't enough is therefore: ration it by waiting until people get hospitalized in which case it will be less effective, or give it out early to only the vulnerable groups.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> This is going to throw you for a loop dad. It takes one of your big crutches away from you.
> 
> From the CDC.
> 
> _The newly released report showing that *vaccinated people can still be superspreaders* drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.
> 
> *The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people*, the CDC said Friday._
> 
> With that in mind....that takes the last shreds of the logic of the vax mandate. The vaxxed can still be super spreaders. The vaxxed spread at the same rate as the unvaxxed. It also removes your thought that IF the unvaxxed just got vaxxed this would all be over.
> 
> Now that does not negate the fact that as of now, getting vaxxed will help those at high risk of being hospitalized and/or getting very sick.
> 
> _"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. "_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC report shows vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 - Roll Call
> 
> 
> A newly released Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report shows that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollcall.com


You’re posting the same concept as before, so I’ll give you the same answer as before, 

Do vaccinated people have equal odds of catching it?  
Do they stay contagious for the same time?

The answers are No, and No.  Vaccinated people do not have the same risk of catching and transmitting covid.  They are less likely to start transmitting, and transmit for a shorter time.  Therefore, they infect fewer people, despite the high peak viral load.

Same as the last time you made this exact same argument.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Well they are looking for ways to fight this...
> 
> No not the fact that the vaxxed spread the virus...but fighting to prevent people from knowing the truth. And Twitter is there to help keep the masses uninformed.
> 
> 
> _Twitter will begin imposing penalties on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website’s terms of service.
> 
> “When tweets include misleading information about Covid-19, we may place a label on those tweets that includes corrective information about that claim,” the website notes in a section detailing its rules about Covid-19 misinformation. *“We may apply labels to tweets that contain, for example… false or misleading claims that people who have received the vaccine can spread or shed the virus (or symptoms, or immunity) to unvaccinated people.”*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter to Penalize Users Who Claim Vaccinated People Can Spread Covid-19
> 
> 
> Twitter will begin imposing penalties up to a permanent ban on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website's terms of service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mediaite.com


It's a high wire act right now, trying to balance you need to wear a mask because the vaxxed spread the disease vs. the vaxx is the best thing since slice bread.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Well they are looking for ways to fight this...
> 
> No not the fact that the vaxxed spread the virus...but fighting to prevent people from knowing the truth. And Twitter is there to help keep the masses uninformed.
> 
> 
> _Twitter will begin imposing penalties on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website’s terms of service.
> 
> “When tweets include misleading information about Covid-19, we may place a label on those tweets that includes corrective information about that claim,” the website notes in a section detailing its rules about Covid-19 misinformation. *“We may apply labels to tweets that contain, for example… false or misleading claims that people who have received the vaccine can spread or shed the virus (or symptoms, or immunity) to unvaccinated people.”*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter to Penalize Users Who Claim Vaccinated People Can Spread Covid-19
> 
> 
> Twitter will begin imposing penalties up to a permanent ban on users who claim that vaccinated people can spread Covid-19, according to a change quietly added to the website's terms of service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mediaite.com


Wow Twitter is going full Ministry of Truth 1984 on this one.  Can't believe the article is true.


----------



## Grace T.

Another one....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471212489085968386


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow Twitter is going full Ministry of Truth 1984 on this one.  Can't believe the article is true.


The article is most likely misinterpreted.  

My bet is they are cracking down on people who say that getting the vaccine makes it possible for you to spread the virus.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I have a healthy, I would say, distrust of government, mainly because its led by politicians and I have zero real trust for any politician. I trust the medical profession far more and have several doctor friends and in-laws and listen to them far more than any advice from government.
> 
> I also got vaccinated for personal protection. I dislike masks, and prefer not to wear one, but will if needed.
> 
> With respects to being healthy etc. - from my personal experience; my 83 year old mother got Covid pre-vaccine and it was touch and go. She was/is healthy, but old. An 8 day hospital stay and a couple of months at home and she was good again. She is vaccined up now. My 14 year old niece also got Covid. It was mild and she seemed to recover quickly. She was a multi sport athlete ... was, because she now has long Covid, can only make school for 3 days a week before she is exhausted (sleeping 20 hours per day for a couple of days, to recover) and all sports are out. We don't know when she will recover.
> 
> IMO, everyone should treat the virus with "respect". It doesn't care if you are healthy or not, or if you don't know you are not ... just look at Erickson & Aguero - professional soccer players both with pre-existing heart conditions that they didn't know about despite how many medicals over their careers.


Glad to hear your mom survived, and very sorry to hear about your niece and I hope she will recover in full.  My mom is 89 and while relatively healthy for an 89 year old, not sure she could have survived Covid.  It was tricky with her because she said that being isolated was not living.  We never kept our kids away from her during Covid (that would have crushed her soul) but we were very careful.  I've seen stories of grandparents not seeing their grandchildren for over a year and it breaks my heart.  I really can't fathom doing that to a grandparent, but every situation is different.

Respect is a good word to use.  We took a careful but balanced approach to Covid pre-vax, active socially but outside mostly if it wasn't family.  Post-vax activity resembles pre-Covid activity, with the exception of avoiding people that are infected (aka don't be stupid).   Its worked for us.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The article is most likely misinterpreted.
> 
> My bet is they are cracking down on people who say that getting the vaccine makes it possible for you to spread the virus.


Well best way to find out is post something on Twitter stating that the vaccinated can be superspreaders and see what happens.  I don't have Twitter so GraceT are you up to the task?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As to kids, flu kills more of them than COVID does.  So it's the sheer number of people you worry about?  Presumably then, if the IFR for the omicron does indeed (yeah I know...early...wait for the UK...there's also some interest data that because it attacks the bronchi more efficiently than the lungs it might also take longer to hit critical) falls to the level of the flu, and everyone catches the omicron (for which vaccine deployment will be too late), the need then for a COVID vaccine would no longer exist if 100,000 elderly people die every year from it and its just endemic?  28,000 died in the moderate flu year of 2018 (sometimes the number can hit for the US as high or over 50,000).  Your argument for vaccines then is "yeah you might have to take 4 or more but eventually it becomes optional once the numbers aren't as high?"


Not IFR.  I am looking to UK to get a sense for peak hospitalizations.  

IFR will be inconsistent if they run into resource limits, like India did with Delta and oxygen.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What part of the drug is most effective before the patient is hospitalized didn't you understand?  The choice if there isn't enough is therefore: ration it by waiting until people get hospitalized in which case it will be less effective, or give it out early to only the vulnerable groups.


"If"?  Nobody says rationing but you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> La Mesans don't intermingle with El Cajonians, actually no one intermingles with El Cajonians.
> 
> So based on your position you would be in favor of a mandate for the HPV vaccine?  It's over 99% effective and would eliminate 70% of cervical cancer.  The Covid vaccine doesn't come anywhere close to that effectiveness.


Talk about windmills . . .


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The higher effectiveness for HPV vaccine makes personal choice more feasable.  A family really can protect their daughter by getting the shot.
> 
> The catch is, it’s really hard to ask a father to view his 14 year old daughter as someone who might be having sex.  A good friend of mine in high school got cervical cancer before the vaccine was developed.  She was in her 20s, but she was active in high school.   Had the vaccine been around, the dad probably would have declined it and explained that his daughter was a good Catholic girl.  Good kid, good dad.  Just not talking on that one issue.
> 
> A HPV vaccine mandate might help kids like that.  At a minimum, the 14 year old kid should be able to get the HPV shot without parental permission.   No need for teenagers to get cancer just because dad can’t handle who his kid really is.


Most people won’t admit who they really are no less their offspring.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well best way to find out is post something on Twitter stating that the vaccinated can be superspreaders and see what happens.  I don't have Twitter so GraceT are you up to the task?


Not sure why you want to.   Is your goal to trick other people into not getting vaccinated?  

Most people can’t parse the difference between the true version and the false version of that sentence.

( Vaccinated people can be superspreaders.)   ( Vaccines can make people superspreaders. )


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "If"?  Nobody says rationing but you.


Meh.  It wasn't my idea.  I'm just parroting what I'm seeing on leftist twitter right now.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not IFR.  I am looking to UK to get a sense for peak hospitalizations.
> 
> IFR will be inconsistent if they run into resource limits, like India did with Delta and oxygen.


Fair, but I doubt they will run into resource limits unless the IFR is being vastly understated (which, as you point out, is possible given South Africa is young, not fat and out of season)


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Glad to hear your mom survived, and very sorry to hear about your niece and I hope she will recover in full.  My mom is 89 and while relatively healthy for an 89 year old, not sure she could have survived Covid.  It was tricky with her because she said that being isolated was not living.  We never kept our kids away from her during Covid (that would have crushed her soul) but we were very careful.  I've seen stories of grandparents not seeing their grandchildren for over a year and it breaks my heart.  I really can't fathom doing that to a grandparent, but every situation is different.
> 
> Respect is a good word to use.  We took a careful but balanced approach to Covid pre-vax, active socially but outside mostly if it wasn't family.  Post-vax activity resembles pre-Covid activity, with the exception of avoiding people that are infected (aka don't be stupid).   Its worked for us.


My kids did their chores....post office runs, pharmacy, supermarket.  The youngest had a high antibody count which meant he was bullet proof.  Wish we had been sure about natural immunity back then....we wouldn't have had to separate them.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> “cry wolf?”
> 
> You have 800,000 people dead in the US and an estimated 15 million dead worldwide.
> 
> How many people have to die before you can admit that there is really a wolf?
> 
> Are you waiting for an even million in the US?  Or are you waiting for the international estimate to hit 20 million?


Quit being so dramatic.  Yes, there are 800K people dead with plenty of blame to be thrown around.  It's highly likley we'll get to a million by this time next year, if not sooner.  The irony is we have more tools at our disposal now than we did when this started.  And yes, we are crying wolf over Omicron.

Get back to me when you can convince American society as a whole to become healthier.  Until you do that, sars-cov-2's affinity for fat will continue to kill americans.  Masks, lockdowns, school closures, mandates - none of that will ever work because you can't make any of it permanent.   Your linear world doesn't exist ouside of your zip code. If anything, given your zip codes demographics, you could be the least restrctive area in the country and be really, really successful at leading a pre covid life.  Isn't that ironic?  

Someone in your neck of the woods who gets sick has access and the means for early disease intervention with safe and proven drug treatments.  The world is a funny place.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not just CA.  Nationwide for mid January.  We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week.   That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20.  Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.
> 
> Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger.  With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down.   The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected.   That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.
> 
> The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.


You still believe the models?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not IFR.  I am looking to UK to get a sense for peak hospitalizations.
> 
> IFR will be inconsistent if they run into resource limits, like India did with Delta and oxygen.


Trust the experts dad4...if this holds up the vaccines don't much.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470387150936059910


----------



## Grace T.

More evidence of stagflation (this is one thing I didn't want to be right about):


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470387150936059910


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> More evidence of stagflation (this is one thing I didn't want to be right about):
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470387150936059910




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471111809943883786


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh.  It wasn't my idea.  I'm just parroting what I'm seeing on leftist twitter right now.


You could have just said that.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> More evidence of stagflation (this is one thing I didn't want to be right about):
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470387150936059910


What definition of "stagflation" fits that twitter link?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You could have just said that.


I thought the Matt Yglesias and others calling for the seizure of the Pfizer patent covered that.  I think most people got that.


espola said:


> What definition of "stagflation" fits that twitter link?


High inflation (which we know is happening), sluggish economy


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I thought the Matt Yglesias and others calling for the seizure of the Pfizer patent covered that.  I think most people got that.
> 
> High inflation (which we know is happening), sluggish economy


Employment numbers are good, industrial production is up.

"In October, manufacturing output rose 1.2 percent, reaching its highest level since March 2019. The indexes for both durable and nondurable goods advanced 1.3 percent, while the index for other manufacturing (logging and publishing) fell 1.5 percent. Within durables, the largest increase was posted by motor vehicles and parts, while a strike at a major manufacturer contributed to a decrease of 1.3 percent for machinery. Within nondurables, the index for petroleum and coal products moved up 5.0 percent; gains of more than 1 percent were also recorded by printing and support and by chemicals. "









						Federal Reserve Board - Industrial Production and Capacity Utilization -       G.17
					

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.



					www.federalreserve.gov


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Employment numbers are good, industrial production is up.
> 
> "In October, manufacturing output rose 1.2 percent, reaching its highest level since March 2019. The indexes for both durable and nondurable goods advanced 1.3 percent, while the index for other manufacturing (logging and publishing) fell 1.5 percent. Within durables, the largest increase was posted by motor vehicles and parts, while a strike at a major manufacturer contributed to a decrease of 1.3 percent for machinery. Within nondurables, the index for petroleum and coal products moved up 5.0 percent; gains of more than 1 percent were also recorded by printing and support and by chemicals. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Federal Reserve Board - Industrial Production and Capacity Utilization -       G.17
> 
> 
> The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.
> 
> 
> 
> www.federalreserve.gov


Employment numbers are only good because of the worker shortage and it isn't going to translate into higher real wages if inflation outpaces employment compensation growth (which so far it has).  Yeah, I had been more confident for the production numbers that we might be experiencing only an inflationary event, but if that were the case, holiday numbers shouldn't be disappointing.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Not sure why you want to.   Is your goal to trick other people into not getting vaccinated?
> 
> Most people can’t parse the difference between the true version and the false version of that sentence.
> 
> ( Vaccinated people can be superspreaders.)   ( Vaccines can make people superspreaders. )


Well it was sarcasm but if people think "can" means "make" we are doomed as a society.   Kind of like how the fear mongers labeled everything as deaths from Covid when many were deaths with Covid.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Trust the experts dad4...if this holds up the vaccines don't much.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470387150936059910


Seeing more reports saying the same thing. 

The trend is shots/boosters wont help vs omicron. And in a sense that isn't surprising. Why? Those vaxxes were produced to fight ALPHA.

Probably why we don't use last yrs flu vaxx to fight this years variant. 

On the brighter side and it still is very early....but it appears this is a much milder variant.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Employment numbers are only good because of the worker shortage and it isn't going to translate into higher real wages if inflation outpaces employment compensation growth (which so far it has).  Yeah, I had been more confident for the production numbers that we might be experiencing only an inflationary event, but if that were the case, holiday numbers shouldn't be disappointing.


"Shouldn't"?


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bubba said:


> Was watching Bill Maher on with Chris C on CNN , not a fan of Chris C and Bill Maher seems more like a old time liberal.
> But Bill was correct when he said "We were sick before we were sick" . 80 percent of deaths were people who were obese and with high blood pressure and diabetes or other as I call them first world diseases. God forbid someone gets told to lose weight, eat better and exercise . We promote  plus size models now.
> 
> I pop in on this thread once and while so sorry if I am repeating something already hashed out . Writing this quickly as I prepare to double mask to pickup 3 large Fraps and a box of dozen doughnuts for our 3 person office


If you aren't keeping up with this thread, it's a sign you are sane.

I don't believe this is brought up enough. IIRC it's been over a year and a half since there was very strong evidence that obesity played a large role in individual risk. It's been verified through multiple studies now. I marvel at how willingly some will ask others to get a vaccine or wear a mask, but not lose some weight and get some exercise. Our "protection" of children during COVID has raised childhood obesity by over 15% (19% to 22%). How many years of future life will be lost from that? Of course, there's also the deterioration of health due to obesity. It's a shame what adults have done to children during this pandemic.

"The percentage of obese children in the United States has increased from 19% pre-pandemic to 22%, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."









						Childhood obesity has spiked during the pandemic and may lead to heart issues
					

Excess abdominal fat likely contributes to cardiovascular problems in children, researchers found




					www.phillyvoice.com


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> If you aren't keeping up with this thread, it's a sign you are sane.
> 
> I don't believe this is brought up enough. IIRC it's been over a year and a half since there was very strong evidence that obesity played a large role in individual risk. It's been verified through multiple studies now. I marvel at how willingly some will ask others to get a vaccine or wear a mask, but not lose some weight and get some exercise. Our "protection" of children during COVID has raised childhood obesity by over 15% (19% to 22%). How many years of future life will be lost from that? Of course, there's also the deterioration of health due to obesity. It's a shame what adults have done to children during this pandemic.
> 
> "The percentage of obese children in the United States has increased from 19% pre-pandemic to 22%, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Childhood obesity has spiked during the pandemic and may lead to heart issues
> 
> 
> Excess abdominal fat likely contributes to cardiovascular problems in children, researchers found
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.phillyvoice.com


hey they should have made us all jump on our goobleboxes....would have been great for the environment too and we can power the great battery with our teenyverse

"it's just slavery with extra steps!"


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The higher effectiveness for HPV vaccine makes personal choice more feasable.  A family really can protect their daughter by getting the shot.
> 
> The catch is, it’s really hard to ask a father to view his 14 year old daughter as someone who might be having sex.  A good friend of mine in high school got cervical cancer before the vaccine was developed.  She was in her 20s, but she was active in high school.   Had the vaccine been around, the dad probably would have declined it and explained that his daughter was a good Catholic girl.  Good kid, good dad.  Just not talking on that one issue.
> 
> A HPV vaccine mandate might help kids like that.  At a minimum, the 14 year old kid should be able to get the HPV shot without parental permission.   No need for teenagers to get cancer just because dad can’t handle who his kid really is.


I marvel that there are people who believe the drive that has kept our species around for many thousands of years will somehow not be present in their child. It's not "who his kid really is", it's "who we really are". We are f'ers


----------



## Grace T.

This is another thing I hoped I wasn't right on....there is compelling evidence that omicron might have originated in mice (which would also explain the rapid mutation)....as I've said before, given the zoonotic reserve, it made it even more unlikely COVID ever disappears.



			https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.472632v1.full.pdf


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> They know the symptoms are milder than Alpha or Delta.
> 
> The problem is the doubling time for cases.  Omicron in Europe is doubling every 2-3 days instead of every 2-3 weeks.
> 
> This means the peak will get compressed into a much smaller time.  If it ends up being a normal flu season, compressed into 2 weeks, that’s a real problem.  Our health care system cannot handle an entire flu season compressed into 2 weeks.
> 
> UK is currently giving us a preview of what this means.  We should know by early January whether it is a problem.  If NHS has trouble keeping up, expect Watfly to be right that the CA mask mandate gets extended.



You're running in Gruesom circles.

Seek the TRUTH.

Here's a massive hint below. Follow the TRUTH.


" furin cleavage site "

For all you wanna be " Virologists " on this forum, look this up
and study up. This is the TRUTH about the manufactured Bio Weapon
that was released in Wuhan then permitted to travel to the USA and
tank a robust economy with the blessings of the Criminal Democrat Party.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Wuhan lab leak 'now the most likely origin of Covid', MPs told
> 
> 
> Dr Alina Chan says there is also a risk that Covid-19 is an engineered virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


Didn't they ban people from Twitter for posting this to protect us from "misinformation"?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Didn't they ban people from Twitter for posting this to protect us from "misinformation"?


 I'm still looking forward to the pictures on twitter with the ideas for how we are going to mask all the mice (see study above).


----------



## Grace T.

The twitter boards are alight with discussions being held at school board and admin levels for schools in the northeast (Boston/NYC) to close and go remote after the winter break.  These aren't half cocked rumors either but reports of actual discussions including reports issued to various school boards and emails that have gone out to teachers.  CDC has previously pushed back on closing schools again....we'll see if they have a back bone too.  I suspect the Bay Area and LA Co may have similar discussions once omicron takes hold here.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This is another thing I hoped I wasn't right on....there is compelling evidence that omicron might have originated in mice (which would also explain the rapid mutation)....as I've said before, given the zoonotic reserve, it made it even more unlikely COVID ever disappears.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.472632v1.full.pdf


I heard it was the Chimps not the Mice.  Whatever these things are made of, their made of DNA of animals and humans.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The twitter boards are alight with discussions being held at school board and admin levels for schools in the northeast (Boston/NYC) to close and go remote after the winter break.  These aren't half cocked rumors either but reports of actual discussions including reports issued to various school boards and emails that have gone out to teachers.  CDC has previously pushed back on closing schools again....we'll see if they have a back bone too.  I suspect the Bay Area and LA Co may have similar discussions once omicron takes hold here.


100%


----------



## Brav520

Like a Wuhan Lab Research facility ?









						Fauci pushes for universal coronavirus vaccine
					

Researchers have been chasing so-called universal vaccines for years, with trials of long-lasting influenza vaccines first starting in 2019.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## crush

I drove my wife to Texas and back instead of wearing a diaper over my mouth and nose on airplane for 7 hours each way.  Instead, I drove 12 hours one day and then 4 the next and then turn around and go 4 and then 14 ((rain yesterday coming down 8 was insane in SD)).  I was the pilot and my wife slept most of the way.  On my 12 hour days I leave at 3:30am local time.  90 mph most of the way with a little break in between.   

*Southwest CEO: 'Masks don't add much, if anything' against COVID-19 on planes*
*Airline CEOs emphasized how superior air quality is on airplanes compared to other indoor spaces, calling into question mandates imposed both by airlines and the Biden administration*


----------



## watfly

Mayor Richard Bailey announces Coronado will not enforce statewide mask mandate -
					

CORONADO (KUSI) – Citing a sharp increase in COVID-19 infection rates since Thanksgiving, the state announced Monday that beginning Wednesday, mask- wearing will become mandatory in all indoor public settings across California regardless of vaccination status. The mask mandate will remain in...




					www.kusi.com
				




When will this end???

Californians are back under a mask mandate today until January 15. Why January 15 and not February 15 or March 15? No one knows, because the Governor has not established a clear policy objective for when he will end the state of emergency that gave him sweeping, unchecked powers over the state for the past two years.

It seems to me that if the Governor can take a week-long vacation in Mexico and California can host the Super Bowl and Oscars in the next several weeks, the emergency is already over.

The conventional wisdom right now is that this virus will become endemic. This means it will still be around in the coming years and cases will likely increase during certain seasons of the year, but those cases will be manageable, much like the seasonal flu.

So, when will this all end? It ends when politicians stop trying to do “something” for political theatre and start being truthful with the public. The truth is that politicians cannot stop the virus with lockdowns and mask mandates. The truth is that the virus is likely here to stay. The truth is that people should make their own decisions based on their own risk tolerance and enjoy their lives.

Coronado will not be actively patrolling or monitoring the business community to enforce the state’s new mask mandate. If called, the city will assess the complaint and respond with education and information. As a municipal corporation, the city’s public facilities will continue to abide by the state’s latest order. This is a similar approach as most other cities.

************
Please note, many businesses require state licenses to operate and may feel obligated to comply with the mask mandate even if they personally disagree with it. Also, municipal employees and public facilities have to comply with state orders. So, if you’re frustrated over the mandate, send your state reps and the Governor’s office an email or give them a call. Do not take your frustrations out on the clerk at the grocery store or the local librarian or the hostess at the restaurant – they are just doing their jobs and it isn’t their decision.


----------



## Desert Hound

People like dad were/are for

Closing biz
Putting people out of work (don't worry...he ordered takeout)
Etc etc.
All completely terrible ideas that ravaged our economy, put biz out or work, hurt working families, and took a terrible toll on the the kids.

That dad and some others are now starting to modify their opinion does not negate the fact that their preferred policies were TERRIBLE.

Kids took and still are taking the brunt of this type of misguided thinking. 

_At this point, I think it is clear: many pandemic experts hurt children. 

School closure was the greatest self inflicted wound of the pandemic. Sensible European nations did not close primary school at all, or only for 6 weeks, but places in the USA remained closed for more than a year. This was a net negative for the health and well-being of children, and will damage this nation for years to come. I am not sure we will recover.

This decision was made only in some places in the USA, and not others, and was not explained by virus specific properties—* it had no correlation with cases/100k or hospitalizations per capita—but solely the political valence of a region/ strength of teachers unions.* When the history books are written, school closure will be viewed, as I have said before: a massively catastrophic and harmful blunder that was fueled by mis-information from the legacy media, and many pundits *who lacked experience adjudicating trade-offs.*

But the experts did not stop with closure. *To this day, children suffer some of the harshest restrictions. In many parts of the USA, including school districts in California, school kids must wear cloth masks inside and outside (Nov 2021). During recess, and in inclement weather (rain). In some locations, they must eat lunch outside, in a hurry (time limits), or in the cold.*_









						How Could They Have Done This to the Children? ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Some claimed that policies for children reflect “following the science.” They do not. There's no science to support primary school closure




					brownstone.org
				




_*---*

Some have claimed that our policies to children reflect “following the science.” They do not. There is no science to support primary school closure. No science supported prolonged (>1 year) closure for any age. No science supported outdoor cloth mask mandates for young kids, and no science supported deviating from the WHO guidance. *These policies meanwhile have devastating consequences for the well-being of children.*_


----------



## Desert Hound

*Universal Vaccination Based on False Premise*
In the case of COVID-19 vaccines, the censorship aims to stamp out any questions about a universal vaccination program that, it is now clear, was based *on the false premise that low-risk individuals must get vaccinated to halt the spread of COVID-19* and end the pandemic. Almost a year into the global vaccination campaign – and starting long before omicron arrived – *all the data stand in stark opposition to this belief.*

Rapidly waning vaccine efficacy and COVID-19 surges in countries and regions with high vaccination rates – including Israel, the United Kingdom, Singapore, and now Europe, as well as high-vaccination U.S. states like Vermont – *are evidence that vaccinated individuals can spread COVID-19 at rates comparable to the unvaccinated. Multiple studies have shown that viral load in vaccinated individuals with COVID-19 is the same as in the unvaccinated.*

Most damning, reports regularly published by the British government show that for every age group from 30 years and up, vaccinated individuals are now actually more likely to test positive for COVID-19. In the case of the 40-59-year-old age group, in the latest report the rate is twice as high among the vaccinated.


Whether this is due to the physiological effects of the vaccines or to social factors – for example freer socializing by the vaccinated – the United Kingdom’s record-breaking surge across a mostly vaccinated population makes one thing clear: mass vaccination will not stop the pandemic. Similar surges fueled by breakthrough cases around the world tell the same story.










						Forcing People Into COVID Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Data
					

Now more than ever we need real debate about decisions that affect the health of hundreds of millions of people, instead we get censorship and suppression.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## dad4

When will this end???

They don’t know.  You don’t know.  I don’t know.

But I do know that you’ll be mad as hell if someone in your family gets really sick this winter, and the hospital has no one available to help them.  

And constant agitation for fewer masks, less distancing, less vaccination, and indoor socialization only makes that more likely.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> *Universal Vaccination Based on False Premise*
> In the case of COVID-19 vaccines, the censorship aims to stamp out any questions about a universal vaccination program that, it is now clear, was based *on the false premise that low-risk individuals must get vaccinated to halt the spread of COVID-19* and end the pandemic. Almost a year into the global vaccination campaign – and starting long before omicron arrived – *all the data stand in stark opposition to this belief.*
> 
> Rapidly waning vaccine efficacy and COVID-19 surges in countries and regions with high vaccination rates – including Israel, the United Kingdom, Singapore, and now Europe, as well as high-vaccination U.S. states like Vermont – *are evidence that vaccinated individuals can spread COVID-19 at rates comparable to the unvaccinated. Multiple studies have shown that viral load in vaccinated individuals with COVID-19 is the same as in the unvaccinated.*
> 
> Most damning, reports regularly published by the British government show that for every age group from 30 years and up, vaccinated individuals are now actually more likely to test positive for COVID-19. In the case of the 40-59-year-old age group, in the latest report the rate is twice as high among the vaccinated.
> 
> 
> Whether this is due to the physiological effects of the vaccines or to social factors – for example freer socializing by the vaccinated – the United Kingdom’s record-breaking surge across a mostly vaccinated population makes one thing clear: mass vaccination will not stop the pandemic. Similar surges fueled by breakthrough cases around the world tell the same story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forcing People Into COVID Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Data
> 
> 
> Now more than ever we need real debate about decisions that affect the health of hundreds of millions of people, instead we get censorship and suppression.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefederalist.com


Is there any evidence that a virus that mutates as COVID does can be eradicated by a vaccine? Is there anyone still making a scientific case for that?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> They know the symptoms are milder than Alpha or Delta.
> 
> The problem is the doubling time for cases.  Omicron in Europe is doubling every 2-3 days instead of every 2-3 weeks.
> 
> This means the peak will get compressed into a much smaller time.  If it ends up being a normal flu season, compressed into 2 weeks, that’s a real problem.  Our health care system cannot handle an entire flu season compressed into 2 weeks.
> 
> UK is currently giving us a preview of what this means.  We should know by early January whether it is a problem.  If NHS has trouble keeping up, expect Watfly to be right that the CA mask mandate gets extended.


No, actually the problem is all the morons still buying this BS.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is there any evidence that a virus that mutates as COVID does can be eradicated by a vaccine? Is there anyone still making a scientific case for that?


Not just mutates but mutates + zoonotic reserve. You’d have to vaccinate and mask all the mice, deer and mink or exterminate them. Good luck with that.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> When will this end???
> 
> They don’t know.  You don’t know.  I don’t know.
> 
> But I do know that you’ll be mad as hell if someone in your family gets really sick this winter, and the hospital has no one available to help them.
> 
> And constant agitation for fewer masks, less distancing, less vaccination, and indoor socialization only makes that more likely.


There’s a good chance we know end date (subject to a bunch of caveats like a Russian war, another new variant, etc), particularly if they try and close schools and do lockdowns again: the complete and total collapse of the Democratic Party in 2022 (or even a disappointing somewhat like 1994 finish).  The problem at least in the us with its hospital capacity isn’t the virus, it’s the political response.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> When will this end???
> 
> They don’t know.  You don’t know.  I don’t know.
> 
> But I do know that you’ll be mad as hell if someone in your family gets really sick this winter, and the hospital has no one available to help them.
> 
> And constant agitation for fewer masks, less distancing, less vaccination, and indoor socialization only makes that more likely.


Fear mongering doesn't work on me and a lot of others.  I appreciate that it works on you, but most people see through it.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When will this end???


When we get rid of politicians who think like you do....ie living in constant fear of what might be around the next corner and putting in policies reflecting that fear. 

That is how it ends.

The virus isn't going anywhere. 

Time to move on and live with it like we do so many other diseases.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> When will this end???
> 
> They don’t know.  You don’t know.  I don’t know.
> 
> But I do know that you’ll be mad as hell if someone in your family gets really sick this winter, and the hospital has no one available to help them.
> 
> And constant agitation for fewer masks, less distancing, less vaccination, and indoor socialization only makes that more likely.


Endemic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Not just mutates but mutates + zoonotic reserve. You’d have to vaccinate and mask all the mice, deer and mink or exterminate them. Good luck with that.


Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> People like dad were/are for
> 
> Closing biz
> Putting people out of work (don't worry...he ordered takeout)
> Etc etc.
> All completely terrible ideas that ravaged our economy, put biz out or work, hurt working families, and took a terrible toll on the the kids.
> 
> That dad and some others are now starting to modify their opinion does not negate the fact that their preferred policies were TERRIBLE.
> 
> Kids took and still are taking the brunt of this type of misguided thinking.
> 
> _At this point, I think it is clear: many pandemic experts hurt children.
> 
> School closure was the greatest self inflicted wound of the pandemic. Sensible European nations did not close primary school at all, or only for 6 weeks, but places in the USA remained closed for more than a year. This was a net negative for the health and well-being of children, and will damage this nation for years to come. I am not sure we will recover.
> 
> This decision was made only in some places in the USA, and not others, and was not explained by virus specific properties—* it had no correlation with cases/100k or hospitalizations per capita—but solely the political valence of a region/ strength of teachers unions.* When the history books are written, school closure will be viewed, as I have said before: a massively catastrophic and harmful blunder that was fueled by mis-information from the legacy media, and many pundits *who lacked experience adjudicating trade-offs.*
> 
> But the experts did not stop with closure. *To this day, children suffer some of the harshest restrictions. In many parts of the USA, including school districts in California, school kids must wear cloth masks inside and outside (Nov 2021). During recess, and in inclement weather (rain). In some locations, they must eat lunch outside, in a hurry (time limits), or in the cold.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Could They Have Done This to the Children? ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> Some claimed that policies for children reflect “following the science.” They do not. There's no science to support primary school closure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*---*
> 
> Some have claimed that our policies to children reflect “following the science.” They do not. There is no science to support primary school closure. No science supported prolonged (>1 year) closure for any age. No science supported outdoor cloth mask mandates for young kids, and no science supported deviating from the WHO guidance. *These policies meanwhile have devastating consequences for the well-being of children.*_


All of which was entirely predictable.  That's the sad part.  It's also put a giant magnifying glass on the limitations of science and the ideology that's infected it.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?


I can't speak for GraceT, but no that's not what I think nor do I believe anyone has made that claim.  Maybe that's the windmill your tilting at.  What I believe is that since it has limited effectiveness and other factors may provide better protection then it shouldn't be mandated and your vaccine status shouldn't be used to discriminate against you.  Seems like common sense to me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Fear mongering doesn't work on me and a lot of others.  I appreciate that it works on you, but most people see through it.


I have seen a few anti-mask-vaxx-distancing-any precautions whatsoever types do 180’s when the shit hits too close to home. It’s easy enough to comply and thrive if you are smart about it and aren’t afraid of bubble peer pressure.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I can't speak for GraceT, but no that's not what I think nor do I believe anyone has made that claim.  Maybe that's the windmill your tilting at.  What I believe is that since it has limited effectiveness and other factors may provide better protection then it shouldn't be mandated and your vaccine status shouldn't be used to discriminate against you.  Seems like common sense to me.


It’s what we have. Caves weren’t 100% either but our ancestors moved in for protection.

What “factors provide better protection”?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have seen a few anti-mask-vaxx-distancing-any precautions whatsoever types do 180’s when the shit hits too close to home. It’s easy enough to comply and thrive if you are smart about it and aren’t afraid of bubble peer pressure.


Doesn't surprise me at all.  But I'm not anti-mask-vaxx-distancing-any precautions whatsoever precautions type of guy.  Not remotely close, so save your lecture for someone else.

I'm comfortable that with my health and vax status and the current treatments available that the risk with fully resuming my life is negligible and the repercussions of me and my family not living life fully is much greater than the risk of Covid.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s what we have. Caves weren’t 100% either but our ancestors moved in for protection.
> 
> What “factors provide better protection”?


Our ancestors also weren't mandated by the Cave HOA to move inside.

Better Protection:
-Good health, not obese
-Avoiding sick people
-Young age
-Distance
-Moving things outdoors where possible
-Therapeutics (not a protection but a treatment)

That doesn't mean I don't also recommend a vaccine along with the above, I just don't believe it should be used to discriminate against people which is currently what's happening in many areas.  Maybe a moot point as most vaccine mandates are being struck down by the court.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s what we have. Caves weren’t 100% either but our ancestors moved in for protection.
> 
> *What “factors provide better protection”?*


Let's start with basic stuff:
Health: We've gotten fatter over the last 20 months or so.  Ridiculous. Put down your chips and soda, go for a walk.
Immune system:  Natural immunity works..really, it does, not a political thing.  Your immune system is remarkable.
Early treatment:  Great stuff available, let practioners do their thing.  CDC and FDA in support, not directing (traditional role)
Vaccines:  Get one, if you want. Provide protection for the most vulnerable.  Quit threatening people's livelihood with mandates.

It amazes me how there are two camps, both mired in stubborness and stupidity.  

Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material.  Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.

Find a practioner that isn't scared - talk to them often and early if you feel sick.  Buy home testing kits if it makes you feel better - they are accurate and effective in early ID.  If you are vaccinated, catch covid, and are reasonably healthy - awesome.  You are set. 

This isn't the end of mutations.  If the current trend stays true, the outlook is good.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> When will this end???
> 
> They don’t know.  You don’t know.  I don’t know.
> 
> But I do know that you’ll be mad as hell if someone in your family gets really sick this winter, and the hospital has no one available to help them.
> 
> And constant agitation for fewer masks, less distancing, less vaccination, and indoor socialization only makes that more likely.


What do you define as "the end".  That's part of the problem is that politicians won't describe what constitutes "the end".  The implement policies without clearly stated goals or move those goals.

One of your recurring excuses is "things change".  No shit Sherlock.  Things in life always change, you can live your life in fear of them.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Our ancestors also weren't mandated by the Cave HOA to move inside.
> 
> Better Protection:
> -Good health, not obese
> -Avoiding sick people
> -Young age
> -Distance
> -Moving things outdoors where possible
> -Therapeutics (not a protection but a treatment)
> 
> That doesn't mean I don't also recommend a vaccine along with the above, I just don't believe it should be used to discriminate against people which is currently what's happening in many areas.  Maybe a moot point as most vaccine mandates are being struck down by the court.


What-happened reminded me that I forgot the most obvious "immunity from previous infection".  Thanks for the assist w-h.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Doesn't surprise me at all.  But I'm not anti-mask-vaxx-distancing-any precautions whatsoever precautions type of guy.  Not remotely close, so save your lecture for someone else.
> 
> I'm comfortable that with my health and vax status and the current treatments available that the risk with fully resuming my life is negligible and the repercussions of me and my family not living life fully is much greater than the risk of Covid.


Works for delta.  If it turns out that omicron causes a health care crisis in UK or New York, are you going to help create a matching crisis here?

Or do you make yet one more adjustment to how you live, and hope that it is over soon?

Maybe omicron flops and the question never comes up.  But, if it does, there is not a third option.


----------



## Desert Hound

This is how it will end. Look at the polling. People are done with this.

That is why you see the gov in CO giving in. He sees the polls. It is why NY will not ENFORCE its mask mandate.

_The poll, which was conducted by Convention of States Action and the Trafalgar Group, found that 69 percent of Americans "say no new mandates or restrictions are required for the Omicron variant of COVID-19." That number includes 67 percent of independents, 86 percent of Republicans, and *54 percent of Democrats*._


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Works for delta.  If it turns out that omicron causes a health care crisis in UK or New York, are you going to help create a matching crisis here?
> 
> Or do you make yet one more adjustment to how you live, and hope that it is over soon?
> 
> Maybe omicron flops and the question never comes up.  But, if it does, there is not a third option.


You have a number of default positions. 

The biggest being is what MIGHT happen in the future means we cannot resume normal life now. 

That default position is one based on fear.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?


Reading comprehension.  The question on the table which kicking used was "eradication"

Again, he question always depends on what goal you are trying to set.

-If the goal is to prevent serious disease and death, all the data shows the vaccination is great or that.  But that has consequences: 1) children and young people are not at serious risk of severe disease or death, and 2) people are responsible for their own health....if you don't think they can make choices over their own body why do you let them chose to have children or to vote.
-If the goal is to eradicate covid, yes the vaccines are worthless for that goal.  Against the omicron, even the best shots seem only 30% effective at preventing transmission or catching Covid, and the early booster data coming in isn't much better.  The virus is mutating, there are other variants that will arise, and there is a zoonotic reserve which makes it worse.
-If the goal is reducing covid transmission, well that question is much harder.  The first question is why?  For the vast majority of the population they will be alright so we are talking now about the very old, and very unhealthy and the immunocompromised (who are, BTW, at risk with the flu too and we don't do this with the flu so we are just talking about overall numbers and how many are acceptable...and before you saying "killing grandma", I have skin in this game with both kids and elderly grandparents).  The next question is how much does it cost?  And that's where I get off the mandate train....if the benefit (particularly with the omicron) is minimal, but the cost is high (and it is...people's livelihood, side effect risks, repetitive shots more than 2, stigmitizing an entire group, civil rights violations) I'm off the mandate train.  I'd reconsider if we had a vaccine that actually worked better and/or had less side effects and a longer proven track record of safety.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Works for delta. If it turns out that omicron causes a health care crisis in UK or New York, are you going to help create a matching crisis here?


What is interesting in the above is the IT WORKS FOR DELTA. 

It wasn't that long ago you were terrified of DELTA. Now you basically admit it really doesn't affect the vast vast majority of people. So you are now on to Omicron as the next thing to fear. 

To date none of the variants have presented a risk to the population at large...

Which is why people are moving on. 

The fear peddled by politicians and the press are not coming true in real life.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Works for delta.  If it turns out that omicron causes a health care crisis in UK or New York, are you going to help create a matching crisis here?
> 
> Or do you make yet one more adjustment to how you live, and hope that it is over soon?
> 
> Maybe omicron flops and the question never comes up.  But, if it does, there is not a third option.


Let's not pretend we haven't been at this crossroads before.  My behaviors, with some luck throw in, have worked perfectly for avoiding Covid.  We can't live life assuming our luck will run out.  I'm also not afraid of cold symptoms.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Let's start with basic stuff:
> Health: We've gotten fatter over the last 20 months or so.  Ridiculous. Put down your chips and soda, go for a walk.
> Immune system:  Natural immunity works..really, it does, not a political thing.  Your immune system is remarkable.
> Early treatment:  Great stuff available, let practioners do their thing.  CDC and FDA in support, not directing (traditional role)
> Vaccines:  Get one, if you want. Provide protection for the most vulnerable.  Quit threatening people's livelihood with mandates.
> 
> It amazes me how there are two camps, both mired in stubborness and stupidity.
> 
> Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material.  Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.
> 
> Find a practioner that isn't scared - talk to them often and early if you feel sick.  Buy home testing kits if it makes you feel better - they are accurate and effective in early ID.  If you are vaccinated, catch covid, and are reasonably healthy - awesome.  You are set.
> 
> This isn't the end of mutations.  If the current trend stays true, the outlook is good.


1- Natural immunity has worked for about 299 out of every 300 people.  The other one died.  He was probably old and/or overweight.  Let’s not forget about him.

2- If the case spike puts us in a crisis standard of care, early treatment is not an option.  No one will have the time to prescribe or administer it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Our ancestors also weren't mandated by the Cave HOA to move inside.
> 
> Better Protection:
> -Good health, not obese
> -Avoiding sick people
> -Young age
> -Distance
> -Moving things outdoors where possible
> -Therapeutics (not a protection but a treatment)
> 
> That doesn't mean I don't also recommend a vaccine along with the above, I just don't believe it should be used to discriminate against people which is currently what's happening in many areas.  Maybe a moot point as most vaccine mandates are being struck down by the court.


It’s not discrimination it’s protection for rest of the herd. If you ever worked a herd of cattle you’d know what I mean. 
No lecture just curious. Government shouldn’t mandate except in extreme cases, but private businesses can screen all they want. Just because the unvaccinated are restricted from certain activities isn’t a mandate it’s protection for the others. Things like flying commercial are a privilege not a right.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> What do you define as "the end".  That's part of the problem is that politicians won't describe what constitutes "the end".  The implement policies without clearly stated goals or move those goals.


In cases such as this, for politicians, you simply use the default that the end will occur when they believe they won't get re-elected if they continue with the policy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension.  The question on the table which kicking used was "eradication"
> 
> Again, he question always depends on what goal you are trying to set.
> 
> -If the goal is to prevent serious disease and death, all the data shows the vaccination is great or that.  But that has consequences: 1) children and young people are not at serious risk of severe disease or death, and 2) people are responsible for their own health....if you don't think they can make choices over their own body why do you let them chose to have children or to vote.
> -If the goal is to eradicate covid, yes the vaccines are worthless for that goal.  Against the omicron, even the best shots seem only 30% effective at preventing transmission or catching Covid, and the early booster data coming in isn't much better.  The virus is mutating, there are other variants that will arise, and there is a zoonotic reserve which makes it worse.
> -If the goal is reducing covid transmission, well that question is much harder.  The first question is why?  For the vast majority of the population they will be alright so we are talking now about the very old, and very unhealthy and the immunocompromised (who are, BTW, at risk with the flu too and we don't do this with the flu so we are just talking about overall numbers and how many are acceptable...and before you saying "killing grandma", I have skin in this game with both kids and elderly grandparents).  The next question is how much does it cost?  And that's where I get off the mandate train....if the benefit (particularly with the omicron) is minimal, but the cost is high (and it is...people's livelihood, side effect risks, repetitive shots more than 2, stigmitizing an entire group, civil rights violations) I'm off the mandate train.  I'd reconsider if we had a vaccine that actually worked better and/or had less side effects and a longer proven track record of safety.


Too early for me . . .


----------



## Grace T.

BTW, the world has a huge problem building. The early data is showing one of the Chinese viruses (the one most heavily in use...I think is sinovax) is 0% effective at stopping disease or transmission and 20% effective at severe disease.  A lot of Africa, Asia and South America used the Chinese vaccine but there's also a lot of natural immunity there....t cells are turning out to be great (some of us were saying that since March/April 2020)....but 1 billion people (some portion, we don't know what due to Chinese lying, has had it) immunonaive and NPIS against the omicron doing nothing.  That leaves the Chinese with a few choices: 1) continue going all out on their suppression, which will be harder and much more painful if even the hard NPIs of China fail, 2) hope the omicron data continues to show that even among the immunonaive it is mild (the data doesn't seem to be showing that in Europe...less deaths but still hospitalizations....the open question is how much prior immunity does Asia really have from cross coronaviruses), and 3) swipe the pfizer.moderna vaccine and trade sanctions be damned (probably the least painful choice but the Chinese economy isn't doing well and is teetering badly....sanctions would be another brick to add on that).  1 billion Chinese and their zoonotic reserves is an awful lot of room for more variants.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension.  The question on the table which kicking used was "eradication"
> 
> Again, he question always depends on what goal you are trying to set.
> 
> -If the goal is to prevent serious disease and death, all the data shows the vaccination is great or that.  But that has consequences: 1) children and young people are not at serious risk of severe disease or death, and 2) people are responsible for their own health....if you don't think they can make choices over their own body why do you let them chose to have children or to vote.
> -If the goal is to eradicate covid, yes the vaccines are worthless for that goal.  Against the omicron, even the best shots seem only 30% effective at preventing transmission or catching Covid, and the early booster data coming in isn't much better.  The virus is mutating, there are other variants that will arise, and there is a zoonotic reserve which makes it worse.
> -If the goal is reducing covid transmission, well that question is much harder.  The first question is why?  For the vast majority of the population they will be alright so we are talking now about the very old, and very unhealthy and the immunocompromised (who are, BTW, at risk with the flu too and we don't do this with the flu so we are just talking about overall numbers and how many are acceptable...and before you saying "killing grandma", I have skin in this game with both kids and elderly grandparents).  The next question is how much does it cost?  And that's where I get off the mandate train....if the benefit (particularly with the omicron) is minimal, but the cost is high (and it is...people's livelihood, side effect risks, repetitive shots more than 2, stigmitizing an entire group, civil rights violations) I'm off the mandate train.  I'd reconsider if we had a vaccine that actually worked better and/or had less side effects and a longer proven track record of safety.


So the question begs, how good is good enough?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So the question begs, how good is good enough?


Yup, but while it was a tight question with the delta (remember while on the fence, I leaned in favor of state but not federal mandates early on), I think the omicron settles it very easily: not good enough to mandate (again, unless you don't believe people should have the right to decide where to work, to have children, to engage in risky activities like extreme sports or even soccer and to vote).  Cost/benefits are messy.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Let's start with basic stuff:
> Health: We've gotten fatter over the last 20 months or so.  Ridiculous. Put down your chips and soda, go for a walk.
> Immune system:  Natural immunity works..really, it does, not a political thing.  Your immune system is remarkable.
> Early treatment:  Great stuff available, let practioners do their thing.  CDC and FDA in support, not directing (traditional role)
> Vaccines:  Get one, if you want. Provide protection for the most vulnerable.  Quit threatening people's livelihood with mandates.
> 
> It amazes me how there are two camps, both mired in stubborness and stupidity.
> 
> Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material.  Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.
> 
> Find a practioner that isn't scared - talk to them often and early if you feel sick.  Buy home testing kits if it makes you feel better - they are accurate and effective in early ID.  If you are vaccinated, catch covid, and are reasonably healthy - awesome.  You are set.
> 
> This isn't the end of mutations.  If the current trend stays true, the outlook is good.


You say "if you want" about vaccines, but not the other things.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> What is interesting in the above is the IT WORKS FOR DELTA.
> 
> It wasn't that long ago you were terrified of DELTA. Now you basically admit it really doesn't affect the vast vast majority of people. So you are now on to Omicron as the next thing to fear.
> 
> To date none of the variants have presented a risk to the population at large...
> 
> Which is why people are moving on.
> 
> The fear peddled by politicians and the press are not coming true in real life.


There aren't 800,000 people dead of covid un USA?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You say "if you want" about vaccines, but not the other things.


That's your take away?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Yup, but while it was a tight question with the delta (remember while on the fence, I leaned in favor of state but not federal mandates early on), I think the omicron settles it very easily: not good enough to mandate (again, unless you don't believe people should have the right to decide where to work, to have children, to engage in risky activities like extreme sports or even soccer and to vote).  Cost/benefits are messy.


Yeah I’m not down with government mandates. “Let the market work it out”


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s not discrimination it’s protection for rest of the herd. If you ever worked a herd of cattle you’d know what I mean.
> No lecture just curious. Government shouldn’t mandate except in extreme cases, but private businesses can screen all they want. Just because the unvaccinated are restricted from certain activities isn’t a mandate it’s protection for the others. Things like flying commercial are a privilege not a right.


Honestly Husker I don't really think were that far apart.  I think we both agree that the Government shouldn't mandate it in this case.  I understand your point in regards to private companies requiring it,  I just don't think that's a good idea and we will see what the Courts say about it.  It's been mixed so far.  The scales for Government mandate vs Individual choice tip heavily to individual choice for me.  The scales for private business choice vs individual choice is closer in balance in my mind.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> 1- Natural immunity has worked for about 299 out of every 300 people.  The other one died.  He was probably old and/or overweight.  Let’s not forget about him.
> 
> 2- If the case spike puts us in a crisis standard of care, early treatment is not an option.  No one will have the time to prescribe or administer it.


No one is forgetting about him.  Old/overweight - should be vaxxed.   Maybe he chose to not vax, maybe he chose to vax.  If vaxxed, could stll die. With Omicron, likley not.

Crisis standard of care is a different ball game but is not a linear approach.  Most patients can/should be treated by their primary care, not told to go home and wait and see.  You make it the term seem so black and white.  There is plenty of nuance involved in figuring out who gets what during crisis standard of care.  If your buddies in the medical world are talking about crisis standard of care in relation to Omicron, find new people to get your medical advice from.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> That's your take away?


It's consistent with this part --

"Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material. Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.

Find a practioner that isn't scared "


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Honestly Husker I don't really think were that far apart.  I think we both agree that the Government shouldn't mandate it in this case.  I understand your point in regards to private companies requiring it,  I just don't think that's a good idea and we will see what the Courts say about it.  It's been mixed so far.  The scales for Government mandate vs Individual choice tip heavily to individual choice for me.  The scales for private business choice vs individual choice is closer in balance in my mind.


Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> BTW, the world has a huge problem building. The early data is showing one of the Chinese viruses (the one most heavily in use...I think is sinovax) is 0% effective at stopping disease or transmission and 20% effective at severe disease.  A lot of Africa, Asia and South America used the Chinese vaccine but there's also a lot of natural immunity there....t cells are turning out to be great (some of us were saying that since March/April 2020)....but 1 billion people (some portion, we don't know what due to Chinese lying, has had it) immunonaive and NPIS against the omicron doing nothing.  That leaves the Chinese with a few choices: 1) continue going all out on their suppression, which will be harder and much more painful if even the hard NPIs of China fail, 2) hope the omicron data continues to show that even among the immunonaive it is mild (the data doesn't seem to be showing that in Europe...less deaths but still hospitalizations....the open question is how much prior immunity does Asia really have from cross coronaviruses), and 3) swipe the pfizer.moderna vaccine and trade sanctions be damned (probably the least painful choice but the Chinese economy isn't doing well and is teetering badly....sanctions would be another brick to add on that).  1 billion Chinese and their zoonotic reserves is an awful lot of room for more variants.


Huge problem?

Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed.  That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.

But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer.  They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.

The other case is East Asia.  I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again.  But I think China and Japan will be fine.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It's consistent with this part --
> 
> "Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material. Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.
> 
> Find a practioner that isn't scared "


And?  what is your issue with any of that.  Clearly it's an opinion.  If you don't agree, then don't.  If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it.  I'm not judgy.   Skepticism is a good thing.  Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics.  It's the nature of the disciplines.  If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> That's your take away?


Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.  

It seems that their particular immune systems came up short just this once.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> No shoes, no shirt, no service.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> And?  what is your issue with any of that.  Clearly it's an opinion.  If you don't agree, then don't.  If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it.  I'm not judgy.   Skepticism is a good thing.  Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics.  It's the nature of the disciplines.  If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.


Soooo you listen to?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.
> 
> It seems that their particular immune systems came up short just this once.


That's your takeway?  Did you just have coffee with @espola?  

And you are right, their immune system did come up short.  If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.  

Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> And?  what is your issue with any of that.  Clearly it's an opinion.  If you don't agree, then don't.  If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it.  I'm not judgy.   Skepticism is a good thing.  Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics.  It's the nature of the disciplines.  If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.


You're skeptical about situations you don't like, and accept the thesis that the media is bought off by big pharma.

Or is that just some part of the media?  Does your skepticism only look in one direction?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.


Sorry but I can't see that phrase and not think of this:





No doubt that certain workplaces can make a more compelling argument for a vaccine mandate.  I can't recall seeing a food worker that hasn't been masked.  If its my business, I'm probably taking a different approach than mandating vaccines.  I might even take a different approach that isn't substantially better than my preferred approach if it reduced my liability exposure.  There's a lot more variables then just the effectiveness of the vaccine to consider.

We can split hairs, but in my mind we're generally on the same page, just different paragraphs.  I think you're just a little more black and white than I am.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> That's your takeway?  Did you just have coffee with @espola?
> 
> And you are right, their immune system did come up short.  *If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then* go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.
> 
> Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.


What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?   

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”.   You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?
> 
> If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”.   You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“


That's what doctors are for, not politicians or you.

What makes you think that politicians or health policy bureaucrats know my risks?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's what doctors are for, not politicians or you.
> 
> What makes you think that politicians or health policy bureaucrats know my risks?


Your risks?  It’s not all about you.

Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Your risks?  It’s not all about you.
> 
> Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.


Some people will never be able to grasp that idea.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?
> 
> If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”.   You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“


Then swim, ride a bike, walk, yoga, Pilates . . .
My favorite is “I’m too busy”, for your health? Keeping up with the Jones’s should be redefined in health terms not wealth. Die early with a nice casket? WTF!


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.


Not really. That number was always baked in. 

We are not a big or small island like Aus/NZ. We were never going to be that authoritarian, not allowing people in or out, etc. 

Our numbers overall are rather similar to the Euro zone where everyone did different things to try to prevent and all roughly ended up at the same point. 

You and others have this delusion that we were just going to lock up, not let anyone in or out, going rather authoritarian and then that would work and be the ideal solution. 

It would not have mattered a bit if it were a D or R with the presidency at the start of this. We would still be around the same numbers.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Your risks?  It’s not all about you.
> 
> Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.


I'll rely on my doctor, thanks.  There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.

Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked.  On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government.  Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well.  They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation.  If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine.  A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.


Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people. 

Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.


----------



## crush

Warning Warning!!!  "GG" is here....


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?


Not opinion, "produce immunity" is literally in the definition of vaccination, this isn't it. Going through life stuck on stupid should not be a goal.


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people.
> 
> Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.


And as I finished up writing the above...I came across this news story regarding the CDC and a vaccine.

_Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are meeting Thursday *to weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson* vaccine because of continued *blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women, according to clinicians familiar with the agenda.*_

---

In other words they are finding issues and that certain groups are having issues.

And yet people here and in power want to MANDATE people to take a vaccine that has not had long term studies done at it. And failure to do so may lead some people to lose their jobs.

Bad policy. Terrible policy.

Dad has been on here before stating these vaxxes are safe. So have the other usual suspects.

The truth is we are still finding stuff out.









						CDC advisers to weigh limits on Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues
					

Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women.




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Huge problem?
> 
> Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed.  That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.
> 
> But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer.  They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.
> 
> The other case is East Asia.  I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again.  But I think China and Japan will be fine.


A. You haven’t looked at the BMI index in China recently have you…as they gotten richer it’s gone bigger…same with age
B. The experiences in Latin America beg to differ
C. I thought your main concern was more variants.   That’s a billion more chances for variants.
D. If Asia turns out all right it will be because of preexisting T cell immunity, genetics and/or the very harsh prc measures


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'll rely on my doctor, thanks.  There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.
> 
> Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked.  On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government.  Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well.  They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation.  If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine.  A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.


Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Not opinion, "produce immunity" is literally in the definition of vaccination, this isn't it. Going through life stuck on stupid should not be a goal.


So for you it must be 100% full proof or you ain’t buying? Check, got it.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.


Your right:








						Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted
					

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.




					www.reuters.com
				




Not justifying it but plenty of misinformation from both sides.  Some wasn't so much blatant misinformation as unsupported speculation like CDC saying vaccination = no mask.

Not a Trump guy so you're barking up the wrong tree again.  BTW, I don't think Trump won the election as much as Hilary lost the election.  Unfortunately our options were terrible.  The fact that he won illustrates how bad a candidate she was.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'll rely on my doctor, thanks.  There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.
> 
> Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked.  On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government.  Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well.  They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation.  If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine.  A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.


You skipped the role of deliberate disinformation.

It’s very easy to take a rare side effect and make it sound huge.  Just talk about the effect, and remove any numbers which tell you probability.   

Look at Hound’s post above.  A ton of fear mongering, but not a single word telling you how common it is.  The actual numbers are around 3 cases per million people vaccinated.  Even that was too much for CDC, so they are recommending women choose Moderna or Pfizer.  But, the author wants to convince you that the vaccines are unsafe.  So he omits the probabilities entirely.  

This stunt is bipartisan.  NYT did the same thing with long covid among teenagers.  Talk up the effect, ignore the probabilities.  Make it sound unsafe.

As a result, Republicans vastly overestimate the risks of the vaccine, and Democrats vastly overestimate the risks of the virus.  Neither side ends up well informed.


----------



## crush

*CDC advisory panel recommends Pfizer and Modern vaccines over Johnson & Johnson*
*The recommendation comes after nine deaths linked to Johnson & Johnson's vaccine*


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> So for you it must be 100% full proof or you ain’t buying? Check, got it.


So tell me, is it a vaccine or treatment?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> So tell me, is it a vaccine or treatment?


Why ask me? If it helps I’m in. I wear a helmet when I ride as well, always have.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *CDC advisory panel recommends Pfizer and Modern vaccines over Johnson & Johnson*
> *The recommendation comes after nine deaths linked to Johnson & Johnson's vaccine*


825,000 Americans have died of Covid so far. That's more than 9.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Your right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted
> 
> 
> Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not justifying it but plenty of misinformation from both sides.  Some wasn't so much blatant misinformation as unsupported speculation like CDC saying vaccination = no mask.
> 
> Not a Trump guy so you're barking up the wrong tree again.  BTW, I don't think Trump won the election as much as Hilary lost the election.  Unfortunately our options were terrible.  The fact that he won illustrates how bad a candidate she was.


Agree with most of that, but yes evolution is inevitable.


----------



## Grace T.

The CDC has lost the thread on masks if even the Atlantic is coming out against it









						The CDC’s Flawed Case for Wearing Masks in School
					

The agency’s director has said, repeatedly, that schools without mask mandates have triple the risk of COVID outbreaks. That claim is based on very shaky science.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *CDC advisory panel recommends Pfizer and Modern vaccines over Johnson & Johnson*
> *The recommendation comes after nine deaths linked to Johnson & Johnson's vaccine*


Approximately 10x more people die each year from peanuts.


----------



## Grace T.

The J&J vaccine might be on the chopping block....I also don't under the rationale if blood clots are such a concern, why are they pulling the J&J shot, but not restricting the mRNA vaccines in the under 30 males?









						CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots
					

The agency implemented experts' advice because of a rare and sometimes fatal blood-clotting problem known as TTS. More than 16 million people in the U.S. have received a shot of the J&J vaccine.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The J&J vaccine might be on the chopping block....I also don't under the rationale if blood clots are such a concern, why are they pulling the J&J shot, but not restricting the mRNA vaccines in the under 30 males?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots
> 
> 
> The agency implemented experts' advice because of a rare and sometimes fatal blood-clotting problem known as TTS. More than 16 million people in the U.S. have received a shot of the J&J vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


p.s. small editorial....if they do pull the J&J or severely restrict it, I think it will be the final nail in the credibility of the roughly 1/3 of the public that is now leaning skeptical of the public health advisors.  Coupled with the mask story from the Atlantic, it will have burned the remaining good will of public health with the panic skeptical community (from my quick initial read of the twitter response).  The question then is does it carry the middle 30%....it might.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You skipped the role of deliberate disinformation.


That's what our brains are for.   I don't want the government deciphering the information for me.   We live in a country that allows people to make bad decisions and then suffer the repercussions.  Unfortunately that can result in collateral damage.  Its an imperfect system.  I get that you don't trust other people to make the right decisions, but that's how our country works.  With freedom comes risks you assume as a citizen that you can't control.  Your points aren't necessarily unreasonable on their face its just not "how things work" aka not reality.  It seems your issue is more with how our country works than with any disinformation or anti-vaxxers.

We're all a product of our situation.  You are dependent on the government for your livelihood, while I'm dependent on the freedoms of capitalism for mine.  That tremendously shades our opinions.  Selfishness is just a matter of perspective based upon what side of the fence you're standing.

This is going to be a wildly unpopular opinion, but misinformation for the most part is protected free speech.  Its a slippery slope when we let a government, organization or communication platform determine what is misinformation or not.  See Wuhan Lab Leak for example.  Misinformation is most often in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That's what our brains are for.   I don't want the government deciphering the information for me.   We live in a country that allows people to make bad decisions and then suffer the repercussions.  Unfortunately that can result in collateral damage.  Its an imperfect system.  I get that you don't trust other people to make the right decisions, but that's how our country works.  With freedom comes risks you assume as a citizen that you can't control.  Your points aren't necessarily unreasonable on their face its just not "how things work" aka not reality.  It seems your issue is more with how our country works than with any disinformation or anti-vaxxers.
> 
> We're all a product of our situation.  You are dependent on the government for your livelihood, while I'm dependent on the freedoms of capitalism for mine.  That tremendously shades our opinions.  Selfishness is just a matter of perspective based upon what side of the fence you're standing.
> 
> This is going to be a wildly unpopular opinion, but misinformation for the most part is protected free speech.  Its a slippery slope when we let a government, organization or communication platform determine what is misinformation or not.  See Wuhan Lab Leak for example.  Misinformation is most often in the eyes of the beholder.


Without the government you would be whittling wood.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Even that was too much for CDC, so they are recommending women choose Moderna or Pfizer.


It isn't fear mongering if the CDC says they recommend women choose another vaccine. Right? They appear concerned enough to recommend this group of people take a different drug. 

And that is why they do long term studies before bringing drugs to the market. And it is precisely because of that unknown that makes it irresponsible to mandate someone to take a vaccine.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Without the government you would be whittling wood.


I'd like to think I would be a hunter-gatherer and fishing for my next meal.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.


Your flank does not care about MisInformation,  that is for sure


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't fear mongering if the CDC says they recommend women choose another vaccine. Right? They appear concerned enough to recommend this group of people take a different drug.
> 
> And that is why they do long term studies before bringing drugs to the market. And it is precisely because of that unknown that makes it irresponsible to mandate someone to take a vaccine.


Well, it's really worse than that since it looks like they are going at a minimum "prioritize" the other vaccines.  Either they've allowed a dangerous drug to be out on the market for 12 months (in which case those people who said long term analysis was needed were right), or they are for various reasons trying to push people into not making a choice and only taking the mRNA vaccines (which BTW has been a key objection against people reluctant to jab their kids).  They don't even realize what they are doing but it's becoming a S show of epic proportions as they torch the last of their credibility.  When this is all over, there will be a portion of society that will want to tear the FDA and CDC to the ground and start from scratch.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.





Hüsker Dü said:


> So for you it must be 100% full proof or you ain’t buying? Check, got it.





Hüsker Dü said:


> Why ask me? If it helps I’m in. I wear a helmet when I ride as well, always have.





Hüsker Dü said:


> Agree with most of that, but yes evolution is inevitable.



The sicknesses/blisters you get from slinging the Democrats filthy water
must be atrocious.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'd like to think I would be a hunter-gatherer and fishing for my next meal.


I would be just find and dandy.  I already have a cave I know of that you can only get to during really low tide.  It's idea for this situation.  I have wetsuit and spear and that's all one needs to catch fish.  I guess we know what Husler and Dad and GG are afraid of.  They need government so bad their willing to steal for it and lie through their teeth to keep government as their Papi.


----------



## crush

*Fentanyl overdoses become No. 1 cause of death among US adults, ages 18-45: 'A national emergency'*
*More adults between 18 and 45 died of fentanyl overdoses in 2020 than COVID-19, motor vehicle accidents, cancer and suicide*


----------



## dad4

Get a grip, folks.  9 deaths out of over 17 million patients.

CDC is doing their job, which is to try to reduce that 9 down to zero.  

But taking the J&J vaccine is roughly as deadly as driving 50 miles.  Both are about a one in 2 million risk.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Well, it's really worse than that since it looks like they are going at a minimum "prioritize" the other vaccines.  Either they've allowed a dangerous drug to be out on the market for 12 months (in which case those people who said long term analysis was needed were right), or they are for various reasons trying to push people into not making a choice and only taking the mRNA vaccines (which BTW has been a key objection against people reluctant to jab their kids).  They don't even realize what they are doing but it's becoming a S show of epic proportions as they torch the last of their credibility.  When this is all over, there will be a portion of society that will want to tear the FDA and CDC to the ground and start from scratch.


500 people die per year due to reactions to penicillin, yet here we have the unemployed former equestrian claiming that a drug that has killed 2% of that number is a "dangerous drug". 

Only an idiot of the unemployed former equestrian's proportions would believe that an entity "loses credibility" because it recommends one medication as a safer alternative than another.  She's probably just bitter that the CDC recommended J&J over injecting bleach into your lungs, blowing sunshine up your ass, and eating horse paste.


----------



## crush

I found Dads Dr.....

*CNN guest advises people to wear masks at Christmas whether 'vaccinated or not'*
*Dr. William Schaffer also suggested everyone get tested the morning of family gatherings.*

"Should we be getting together with our vaccinated loved ones or do you not recommend it?" Camerota asked. 

"I would recommend that we hang our stockings with care. I think we have to be careful. If we’re all going to get together, we should all be vaccinated and preferentially boosted. We should wear our masks if we’re uncertain," Dr. Schaffer said.  

"I would recommend that we hang our stockings with care. I think we have to be careful. If we’re all going to get together, we should all be vaccinated and preferentially boosted. We should wear our masks if we’re uncertain," Dr. Schaffer said.  

And I would certainly say if you’re going to any group event indoors whether you’re vaccinated or not, please wear your mask. And yes, I join the chorus of everyone saying vaccination vaccination vaccination. If you had your first dose, bring those children in age 5 and older. And if you hadn’t gotten your booster and you’re eligible, run, do not walk, and get vaccinated," Schaffer said.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Get a grip, folks.  9 deaths out of over 17 million patients.
> 
> CDC is doing their job, which is to try to reduce that 9 down to zero.
> 
> But taking the J&J vaccine is roughly as deadly as driving 50 miles.  Both are about a one in 2 million risk.


How many have had myocarditis or other cardiovascular events from an mRNA vaccine?  Why isn't it the CDCs job then to reduce that risk down to zero, particularly in the other 30 male crowd for which this is a risk? Why then did the CDC allow the shot be out there for almost a year when it's been known for a long time now that there is this risk?  If the answer is the "science evolved", can you blame people for being skeptical of rushing out to vaxx people who are not particularly at risk, worried the "science" might evolve further?

Sorry man....there's no real way to defend this from a public relations point of view....


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> I found Dads Dr.....
> 
> *CNN guest advises people to wear masks at Christmas whether 'vaccinated or not'*
> *Dr. William Schaffer also suggested everyone get tested the morning of family gatherings.*
> 
> "Should we be getting together with our vaccinated loved ones or do you not recommend it?" Camerota asked.
> 
> "I would recommend that we hang our stockings with care. I think we have to be careful. If we’re all going to get together, we should all be vaccinated and preferentially boosted. We should wear our masks if we’re uncertain," Dr. Schaffer said.
> 
> "I would recommend that we hang our stockings with care. I think we have to be careful. If we’re all going to get together, we should all be vaccinated and preferentially boosted. We should wear our masks if we’re uncertain," Dr. Schaffer said.
> 
> And I would certainly say if you’re going to any group event indoors whether you’re vaccinated or not, please wear your mask. And yes, I join the chorus of everyone saying vaccination vaccination vaccination. If you had your first dose, bring those children in age 5 and older. And if you hadn’t gotten your booster and you’re eligible, run, do not walk, and get vaccinated," Schaffer said.


Public health "experts" in the UK have blown way past masks and there's already a substantial amount calling for the UK to institute lockdowns to avoid a Christmas wave of infection.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> How many have had myocarditis or other cardiovascular events from an mRNA vaccine?  Why isn't it the CDCs job then to reduce that risk down to zero, particularly in the other 30 male crowd for which this is a risk? Why then did the CDC allow the shot be out there for almost a year when it's been known for a long time now that there is this risk?  If the answer is the "science evolved", can you blame people for being skeptical of rushing out to vaxx people who are not particularly at risk, worried the "science" might evolve further?
> 
> Sorry man....there's no real way to defend this from a public relations point of view....


Maybe they did a cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> How many have had myocarditis or other cardiovascular events from an mRNA vaccine?  Why isn't it the CDCs job then to reduce that risk down to zero, particularly in the other 30 male crowd for which this is a risk? Why then did the CDC allow the shot be out there for almost a year when it's been known for a long time now that there is this risk?  If the answer is the "science evolved", can you blame people for being skeptical of rushing out to vaxx people who are not particularly at risk, worried the "science" might evolve further?
> 
> Sorry man....there's no real way to defend this from a public relations point of view....


The CDC should immediately take penicillin off the market because 500 people died last year.  It is ridiculous that the CDC does not reduce that risk to zero.  Those who are skeptical whether the benefits of penicillin outweigh the risks are so smart.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> How many have had myocarditis or other cardiovascular events from an mRNA vaccine?  Why isn't it the CDCs job then to reduce that risk down to zero, particularly in the other 30 male crowd for which this is a risk? Why then did the CDC allow the shot be out there for almost a year when it's been known for a long time now that there is this risk?  If the answer is the "science evolved", can you blame people for being skeptical of rushing out to vaxx people who are not particularly at risk, worried the "science" might evolve further?
> 
> Sorry man....there's no real way to defend this from a public relations point of view....


I notice that you don't use any numbers in your argument.

See previous note about people who make things sound risky by talking about the harm but never once mentioning the probability.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?
> 
> If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”.   You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“


That's an interesting and fair question.  My experience has been that people who receive routine healthcare and have a relationship with their provider through routine wellness interaction have a pretty good undertanding of where they stand.  Plenty of nuance in healthcare.  People know when they are not healthy.  There has been enough info and emphasis over the last 20 months or so that specifally calls out risks to those people presenting with obesity issues (which is a lot of Americans).


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The CDC should immediately take penicillin off the market because 500 people died last year.  It is ridiculous that the CDC does not reduce that risk to zero.  Those who are skeptical whether the benefits of penicillin outweigh the risks are so smart.


Who is mandating penicillin?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> 500 people die per year due to reactions to penicillin, yet here we have the unemployed former equestrian claiming that a drug that has killed 2% of that number is a "dangerous drug".
> 
> Only an idiot of the unemployed former equestrian's proportions would believe that an entity "loses credibility" because it recommends one medication as a safer alternative than another.  She's probably just bitter that the CDC recommended J&J over *injecting bleach into your lungs, blowing sunshine up your ass, and eating horse paste.*


You are just as dumb as trump.  I don't think he mentioned lung injection but you get the drift.   Sodium hypochlorite has undergone clinical trials.  It's used in dental offices every day. Other preoperative rinses are also undergoing clinical trials.  Will they work?  who knows.  Safety profile is great, as is povidone iodine , hydrogen peroxide , and others.  

Amazing the info you get from friends who work in other fields.  Who knew that teeth pullers may hold the key to covid-19 prophylaxis.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I notice that you don't use any numbers in your argument.
> 
> See previous note about people who make things sound risky by talking about the harm but never once mentioning the probability.


This where attention to detail matters.  The argument isn't  whether a large population is at risk for myocarditis, but rather a very small, healthy population is put in greater risk by administering a vaccine.  It's a pillar of discussion during vaccine approval.  There have been some studies done, some peer reviewed, some not.  The gist is the risk of cardiac adverse events following the second dose of the mRNA vaccine could be around 3.7 times more likely than hospitalization due to COVID-19 in healthy 12-15-year-old boys.  Plenty of other factors to consider that may tilt that in the opposite direction of you add 1 or more covid-19 comorbitidy to the equation.

Bottom line, consider the risk/benefit for your boy child in regards to an mRNA vaccine.  If I had a healthy boy child in that age range, vaccination would be out of the question, especially if they play sports or are active in cardiac intensive actvities.


----------



## crush

*Biden warns of 'winter of severe illness and death' for the unvaccinated*

"It’s here now and it’s spreading and it’s going to increase," the president said about the omicron variant while meeting with his coronavirus response team. "For unvaccinated we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death if you’re unvaccinated for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they will soon overwhelm." 

"But, there’s good news," Biden added.* "If you’re vaccinated and have your booster shot you’re protected from severe illness and death." *

Unless you take the J & J?  Tell that to the 9 that died from the J & J Jab.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> *Biden warns of 'winter of severe illness and death' for the unvaccinated*
> 
> "It’s here now and it’s spreading and it’s going to increase," the president said about the omicron variant while meeting with his coronavirus response team. "For unvaccinated we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death if you’re unvaccinated for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they will soon overwhelm."
> 
> "But, there’s good news," Biden added.* "If you’re vaccinated and have your booster shot you’re protected from severe illness and death." *
> 
> Unless you take the J & J?  Tell that to the 9 that died from the J & J Jab.


Biden 10/2020


I'm not going to shut down the country.

I'm not going to shut down the economy.

I'm going to shut down the virus.


----------



## Brav520

Put Kamala in!

During a campaign debate last fall, Biden took a jabat then-President Trump for the 220,000 COVID-19 deaths in America, claiming that "anyone who is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as President of the United States of America.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> This where attention to detail matters.  The argument isn't  whether a large population is at risk for myocarditis, but rather a very small, healthy population is put in greater risk by administering a vaccine.  It's a pillar of discussion during vaccine approval.  There have been some studies done, some peer reviewed, some not.  The gist is the risk of cardiac adverse events following the second dose of the mRNA vaccine could be around 3.7 times more likely than hospitalization due to COVID-19 in healthy 12-15-year-old boys.  Plenty of other factors to consider that may tilt that in the opposite direction of you add 1 or more covid-19 comorbitidy to the equation.
> 
> Bottom line, consider the risk/benefit for your boy child in regards to an mRNA vaccine.  If I had a healthy boy child in that age range, vaccination would be out of the question, especially if they play sports or are active in cardiac intensive actvities.


very nicely and impressively said.  I had posted the two studies before which showed that there might be a greater risk for some young males from the mRNA vaccine than COVID but of course dad4 usually glosses over anything that fits his narrative.  Additionally, given that there are other choices out there which either have not yet been approved or have been approved in other nations but not the US or the J&J shot, it's a failure of both pharma and public health that there isn't a non-mRNA vaccine option for this group...if you want to mandate things so badly, start by getting one out there (instead of rolling back the approvals)

I just saw the South Park post-covid special part 2.  It's really good.  The first 5 minutes are pretty moving and reminded me exactly how COVID went down at first.  No spoilers, but the basic takeaway theme of the special was that if both sides were a little bit more respectful to each other, COVID wouldn't have been as much of a nightmare.  It's a really simplistic morale but it hides a deeper one.  The special really makes the point that every policy decision will make winners and losers.  And even more deeply (a la Star Trek II), it dives in depth to whether the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few (or the one).  It doesn't reach a conclusion, but it complicates things a lot in that everyone is acting out of selfish motives, particularly the two villains of the piece, who are willing to destroy lives to save their own.  It was deep....South Park at its best.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> This where attention to detail matters.  The argument isn't  whether a large population is at risk for myocarditis, but rather a very small, healthy population is put in greater risk by administering a vaccine.  It's a pillar of discussion during vaccine approval.  There have been some studies done, some peer reviewed, some not.  The gist is the risk of cardiac adverse events following the second dose of the mRNA vaccine *could be *around 3.7 times more likely than hospitalization due to COVID-19 in healthy 12-15-year-old boys.  Plenty of other factors to consider that may tilt that in the opposite direction of you add 1 or more covid-19 comorbitidy to the equation.
> 
> Bottom line, consider the risk/benefit for your boy child in regards to an mRNA vaccine.  If I had a healthy boy child in that age range, vaccination would be out of the question, especially if they play sports or are active in cardiac intensive actvities.


The words "could be" are doing some pretty heavy lifting in that sentence.

Either way, you only gave us relative risk.  That falls short on your "attention to detail" standard.   It's an issue, but without knowing absolute risk for male athletes, you can't say how big.


----------



## Grace T.

From one of the FDA directors who resigned, critical of the Biden admin for bypassing advisory panel on boosters for teens.  If Trump had done this, the press would be calling for his head and refusing to take the booster.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/16/vaccines-fda-cdc-boosters-expert-panel/


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The words "could be" are doing some pretty heavy lifting in that sentence.
> 
> Either way, you only gave us relative risk.  That falls short on your "attention to detail" standard.   It's an issue, but without knowing absolute risk for male athletes, you can't say how big.


If you can't say how big, you don't mandate it until you are sure!


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> From one of the FDA directors who resigned, critical of the Biden admin for bypassing advisory panel on boosters for teens.  If Trump had done this, the press would be calling for his head and refusing to take the booster.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/16/vaccines-fda-cdc-boosters-expert-panel/


It's also interesting that Trump was incessantly blamed for Covid deaths by the Left.  There are more deaths under Biden's administration and that's post vaccination but you don't really hear the Right blaming Biden for the deaths.  You will hear people point out that fact, but rarely blame him.  Biden does get blamed for everything else and for the most part, deservedly so.  Covid deaths are largely out of the control of our politicians, well except for Cuomo and Murphy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> From one of the FDA directors who resigned, critical of the Biden admin for bypassing advisory panel on boosters for teens.  If Trump had done this, the press would be calling for his head and refusing to take the booster.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/16/vaccines-fda-cdc-boosters-expert-panel/


The article also criticizes Trump for the same thing.

Of course, you never mentioned that part.  

He makes a good point, but it isn't the partisan attack you want it to be.  It's an appeal to trust the experts.

Kind of funny that you are pretending to be on that side.  I mean, if the experts are all wrong, why not skip the advisory panels?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The article also criticizes Trump for the same thing.
> 
> Of course, you never mentioned that part.
> 
> He makes a good point, but it isn't the partisan attack you want it to be.  It's an appeal to trust the experts.
> 
> Kind of funny that you are pretending to be on that side.  I mean, if the experts are all wrong, why not skip the advisory panels?


That’s not why he bypassed them. The experts might have given him the ok. He’s worried about the increasing minority of experts that are critical of the covid safe policies. So why give them a platform where they critique?  The issue with you, as has been pointed out and shown repeatedly, isn’t that you trust the experts: it’s that you only trust the establishmentarian experts that agree with your world view and everyone else is a fringe lunatic.

ps I’m no trump fan. I hope he doesn’t run in 2024 and makes way for de santis.  On the left Harris and buttleig are damaged goods and Hillary has been putting out trial balloons for herself. Trump v Hillary would be the worst thing to ever happen to this country since the last trump v Hillary. My post isn’t so much a defense of trump than a critique of the media


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The words "could be" are doing some pretty heavy lifting in that sentence.
> 
> Either way, you only gave us relative risk.  That falls short on your "attention to detail" standard.   It's an issue, but without knowing absolute risk for male athletes, you can't say how big.


The word "could" does heavy lifting in science and research.  "Could" overload hospitals, "could" do this, "could" do that.  But you do know the risk of covid in young healthy males - it's very, very low.  Most won't even know they have covid or think it's the sniffles.  Besides, I'm not giving you anything, I'm referencing data/research.  You are a smart person, go and look it up.  If you are a parent of a healthy male child between 5-18, you should be well informed of all of the risk and be allowed to make your own decision.  Emergency use authorization is a rather new phenomena for the FDA and protects companies from liabilities.  Personally, I think it's a racket but that's just my opinion. 

The bottom line is my0carditis in young healthy males isn't a normal occurence and not something that should be glossed over.  Anecdotally and in research I've seen, the recorded levels of troponin complex  in some of these cases has been unusually high.  Never a good thing in a healthy child. You shouldn't apply the same calculus to the 0-12 age group as you do the 65+ age group.   Who cares if someone age 65 dies in 15 years from the vaccine.  

Lastly, maintain your standard of empathy - 299 out 300, one person still dies, not  good thing for that person.  1 healthy male affected by a cardiac event that "could" impact the rest of his life..not a good thing.  Does myocarditis usually resolve on its own..yep.  Does it always?  nope.  High T levels is the most concerning thing.  I know I certainly wouldn't take the risk with my healthy boy child. Many parents will - and I wish them well.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> That’s not why he bypassed them. The experts might have given him the ok. He’s worried about the increasing minority of experts that are critical of the covid safe policies. So why give them a platform where they critique?  The issue with you, as has been pointed out and shown repeatedly, isn’t that you trust the experts: it’s that you only trust the establishmentarian experts that agree with your world view and everyone else is a fringe lunatic.
> 
> ps I’m no trump fan. I hope he doesn’t run in 2024 and makes way for de santis.  On the left Harris and buttleig are damaged goods and Hillary has been putting out trial balloons for herself. Trump v Hillary would be the worst thing to ever happen to this country since the last trump v Hillary. My post isn’t so much a defense of trump than a critique of the media


of course the media reaction had this been Trump would be different

I saw Hillary was on TV last week reading her acceptance speech, must be hard for her to find peace . She must look at Biden and think “wtf “.


----------



## Brav520

Florida man banned from United Airlines after wearing thong as mask in protest
					

A Florida man was reportedly banned from flying United Airlines after wearing a red thong as a face covering while boarding a flight in protest of the federal mask mandate.




					nypost.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> of course the media reaction had this been Trump would be different
> 
> I saw Hillary was on TV last week reading her acceptance speech, must be hard for her to find peace . She must look at Biden and think “wtf “.


Everyone looks at Biden and say WTF. Democrats just do it under their breath.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Everyone looks at Biden and say WTF. Democrats just do it under their breath.


I look at most all politicians that way, just with trump, and now some of his wannabe mini-mes, I say fuck no.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I look at most all politicians that way, just with trump, and *now some of his wannabe mini-mes, I say fuck no.*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Everyone looks at Biden and say WTF. Democrats just do it under their breath.


South Africa is doing out in the open.  They ((the cheaters)) are trying to find someone to blame.  One would also thing that South Africa would be dead by now????

JUST IN - South Africa hospitalization rate plunges to only 1.7% in #Omicron wave, compared with 19% in previous "Delta-driven" wave - Health Minister

Only 26% of the population in South Africa is fully vaccinated.


----------



## Desert Hound

I hope sanity returns sometimes soon.

Men competing against women...and breaking women's records.

You want to pretend you are a woman and dress up like one...have at it. Very few care.

You want to pretend you are a women and compete against them in WOMEN's sports sorry pal. A bridge too far.

It is a farce. And too many people won't say anything because they don't want to be called a bigot or whatever. 


_After the race, the teammate said, Thomas could be overheard bragging, 'That was so easy, I was cruising,' before adding, *'At least I'm still No. 1 in the country.'*_

--

At some point women need to stand up and say enough.

Right now the pressure is on these women to shut up.

_In the week after the Zippy Invitational, two of Thomas' female UPenn teammates anonymously spoke out about their frustrations of having a transgender teammate, despite the entire team being '*strongly advised' not to speak to the media*.

One of the swimmers told sports website OutKick that UPenn swimmers were upset and crying as they knew their times were going to be obliterated by her.

'Usually everyone claps, everyone is yelling and cheering when someone wins a race,' she said of the Zippy Invitational. *'Lia touched the wall and it was just silent in there. When fellow Penn swimmer Anna Kalandadze finished second, the crowd erupted in applause.'*_









						UPenn parents pen poignant letter demanding the NCAA change rules
					

Parents of the UPenn women's swim team are demanding the NCAA change rules that have permitted transgender swimmer Lia Thomas to compete.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> If you can't say how big, you don't mandate it until you are sure!


And that is the point I have been making now for some time. 

We don't know what the long term affects are. To mandate healthy people with little to no risk of the virus to take a shot is not ethical/good policy, etc.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> I hope sanity returns sometimes soon.
> 
> Men competing against women...and breaking women's records.
> 
> You want to pretend you are a woman and dress up like one...have at it. Very few care.
> 
> You want to pretend you are a women and compete against them in WOMEN's sports sorry pal. A bridge too far.
> 
> It is a farce. And too many people won't say anything because they don't want to be called a bigot or whatever.
> 
> 
> _After the race, the teammate said, Thomas could be overheard bragging, 'That was so easy, I was cruising,' before adding, *'At least I'm still No. 1 in the country.'*_
> 
> --
> 
> At some point women need to stand up and say enough.
> 
> Right now the pressure is on these women to shut up.
> 
> _In the week after the Zippy Invitational, two of Thomas' female UPenn teammates anonymously spoke out about their frustrations of having a transgender teammate, despite the entire team being '*strongly advised' not to speak to the media*.
> 
> One of the swimmers told sports website OutKick that UPenn swimmers were upset and crying as they knew their times were going to be obliterated by her.
> 
> 'Usually everyone claps, everyone is yelling and cheering when someone wins a race,' she said of the Zippy Invitational. *'Lia touched the wall and it was just silent in there. When fellow Penn swimmer Anna Kalandadze finished second, the crowd erupted in applause.'*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UPenn parents pen poignant letter demanding the NCAA change rules
> 
> 
> Parents of the UPenn women's swim team are demanding the NCAA change rules that have permitted transgender swimmer Lia Thomas to compete.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## crush

Straight from the horses mouth!!!!


----------



## crush

Letting the truth out bit by bit. (Fauci on vaccines)
					

Letting the truth out bit by bit.  @CovidPassportsAreGayAsFuck  https://t.me/realCRP/2508




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound

More and more people are starting to come to terms with reality. 

_Meanwhile, the Omicron variant looks likely to be Delta on steroids when it comes to how fast it spreads. Even if, as the initial evidence suggests, it usually causes milder disease, Omicron will cause a *huge wave of cases in vaccinated people *who could pass it on.

Why isn't that an argument for tightening restrictions? For three reasons.

First, because many — likely most — *people simply won't observe a lockdown at this point. *Indeed, many people are no longer willing to abide by even more modest restrictions like masking. *If your policy is to do something that won't be done, you don't really have a policy. *_
--
Dad the last sentence is something you have been blissfully unaware of for some time as GraceT has pointed out countless times. 
--
_Moreover, the unvaccinated-by-choice are in many cases less likely to limit their behaviors in other ways. T*he COVID-conscious, in other words, are mostly protecting people who don't really need it, because they can do little to protect those who do.*

Second, even if there were a high rate of compliance, *Delta and Omicron are so contagious there is no plausible non-pharmaceutical intervention that could contain them*. The measures we used earlier in the pandemic were only partially effective then. They would be completely overwhelmed now. *At best, we might modestly slow the spread while it continues to scythe its way through the population.*

And third, we no longer need to flatten the curve. Early in the pandemic, we needed to buy time to understand the virus better, to develop treatments, and to stand up a full-fledged testing-and-tracing infrastructure to facilitate containment, which we never did. *Since containment has comprehensively failed, most everyone on earth will either be vaccinated or infected eventually*. We now have enough vaccines domestically to cover everyone multiple times over. *So what exactly are we buying time for?









						The radicalization of a COVID moderate
					

The pandemic is real and serious. But for most of us, it's time to return to normal.



					theweek.com
				



*_


----------



## watfly

Another concession that the vaccination doesn't prevent spread of the virus.  Yet the government is still trying to mandate the vaccination.

Cal/OSHA New Pandemic Rules Don’t Distinguish Vaccinated – NBC 7 San Diego (nbcsandiego.com)


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Everyone looks at Biden and say WTF. Democrats just do it under their breath.


CNN and the NY Times are already discussing who could run in Biden's place..."hypothetically".  The handwriting is on the wall.  The MSM will have to find stories other than Biden as they hold their breath until the Democrat primaries. Get used to wall to wall Jan 6 coverage.

The Democrats will only have themselves to blame if Trump runs in 2024.  Unfortunately, its setting up perfectly for him.  Everyone, regardless of party, should be hoping that a strong Republican candidate rises to challenge Trump.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *Everyone, regardless of party, should be hoping that a strong Republican candidate rises to challenge Trump.*


I appreciate your honesty Wat Fly.  The two party dance is over bro.  I think we will have about 5 top groups when the dust settles and then the rest will just be radicals in the weeds and will fade away.  The Honest & Truth Seeking Liberals, Conservatives, Progressives, Religious Folks and The Free Thinkers will rule the planet.  Merit based competition, helping humanity & creativity will rule the land.  No more kickbacks and no more pay to play.  No more buying, bribing and then blackmailing suckers who cheat to get to the top of this bullshit system we were born into.  Times are changing 100%   t is just the dart board.  He took darts for you brother.  He loves you more then you'll ever know.  I said on this forum I had a dream a few years ago that all the t haters were crying and saying sorry for all their hate towards the Lion Mr. Trump.  It's amazing how much hate people had and some still have towards one man.  Look at all those WHO were hunting t down with all the impeaches, hoaxes and smearing????  Step downs, arrested, resigning and so much more.  Talk about, "where are they now?((The haters)).  This President got censored as the sitting President of the Untied States of America and the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces by Jack & Mark. Do you not see the problem?  Trump said he would make it his administrations #1 priority, which was to END HUMAN TRAFFICKING!!!  Do you see????


----------



## crush

HAPPENING NOW: Biden just called Kamala Harris "President Harris"


----------



## crush

Breaking:  City of Phoenix will give $2,000 bonus for those taking the jabs.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If you can't say how big, you don't mandate it until you are sure!


Fair enough.  No vaccine mandate for men under 30 who can run a 6 minute mile.  Require it for everyone else over 18.

That should adequately cover the legitimate portion of your concern.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Fair enough.  No vaccine mandate for men under 30 who can run a 6 minute mile.  Require it for everyone else over 18.
> 
> That should adequately cover the legitimate portion of your concern.


Is that running with or without a mask on?  So in your Dad world world, no one is allowed religious excuse to say no to jab?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> CNN and the NY Times are already discussing who could run in Biden's place..."hypothetically".  The handwriting is on the wall.  The MSM will have to find stories other than Biden as they hold their breath until the Democrat primaries. Get used to wall to wall Jan 6 coverage.
> 
> The Democrats will only have themselves to blame if Trump runs in 2024.  Unfortunately, its setting up perfectly for him.  Everyone, regardless of party, should be hoping that a strong Republican candidate rises to challenge Trump.


It's going to be tough to prop up the cardboard cutout that Biden has been since the beginning of the primaries for another 2 years and 10 months. It's not like they have a popular/competent VP backing him up.

DeSantis works for me. No more Trump, please.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Of course it doesn't <sigh>









						Flu vaccines don't match the main circulating flu virus strain, researchers find | CNN
					

One of the main circulating influenza viruses has changed and the current flu vaccines don't match it well any more -- an indication they may not do much to prevent infection, researchers reported Thursday. But they are still likely to prevent severe illness.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's going to be tough to prop up the cardboard cutout that Biden has been since the beginning of the primaries for another 2 years and 10 months. It's not like they have a popular/competent VP backing him up.
> 
> DeSantis works for me. No more Trump, please.


Desantis is just mini-t.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Desantis is just mini-t.


really?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's going to be tough to prop up the cardboard cutout that Biden has been since the beginning of the primaries for another 2 years and 10 months. It's not like they have a popular/competent VP backing him up.
> 
> DeSantis works for me. No more Trump, please.





espola said:


> Desantis is just mini-t.


I'd prefer a Haley/Scott ticket.  If DeSantis does run the mini-t claim will be the left's go to talking point, since they won't have the policies to defeat him.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> really?


Check the talking points. It's all he has.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I'd prefer a Haley/Scott ticket.  If DeSantis does run the mini-t claim will be the left's go to talking point, since they won't have the policies to defeat him.


I typically don't follow it too closely until the time comes. I am open to changing my mind.

For the D side, Wes Moore is one to watch but it's too early this Presidential election cycle as he is running for Governor of MD. Listen to him speak. He avoids the victim mentality that many of the proudly woke trumpet and has a positive message as well as an interesting background. I can't say I know anything about his policies.


----------



## crush

"GG" warning everyone!!!


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Who is mandating penicillin?


The federal government is not mandating vaccination either - unless you are expecting to feed at their trough.  Only federal workers, federal contractors, and healthcare providers receiving federal Medicare or Medicaid funding.  How ironic that the people who are complaining that the federal government is overreaching are actually the ones who are overreaching, only they're doing it into the government's pockets.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Fair enough.  No vaccine mandate for men under 30 who can run a 6 minute mile.  Require it for everyone else over 18.
> 
> That should adequately cover the legitimate portion of your concern.


There you go again. Authoritarianism.

So now Europe is finding trouble with another one of the vaccines.

You would mandate the vax on people who have no risk. 

Bad policy...on which you have been very consistent. 

Funny how we keep finding out that certain groups shouldn't take this or that vaccine. And yet you want to mandate them. 

Long term studies are needed. 


_PARIS, France - The Moderna Covid jab carries a slight risk of usually non-serious heart problems a study of the entire population of Denmark found Friday.

Incidences of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the tissue surrounding the heart) after mRNA jabs from Pfizer and Moderna had been noted in vaccine safety reports and small-scale studies. 

*These reports led France, Denmark and other countries to advise against the jab for people under 30 years old.*

"Vaccination with mRNA-1273 (Moderna) was associated with a significantly increased rate of myocarditis or myopericarditis, especially among individuals aged 12-39 years," the study said._


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I typically don't follow it too closely until the time comes. I am open to changing my mind.
> 
> For the D side, Wes Moore is one to watch but it's too early this Presidential election cycle as he is running for Governor of MD. Listen to him speak. He avoids the victim mentality that many of the proudly woke trumpet and has a positive message as well as an interesting background. I can't say I know anything about his policies.


Stop it with the dualistic politics bro.  The D vs R and Right vs Left and Democratic vs Republican is no more.  No more Capitalism Vs Communism or Liberal vs Progressives.  No more Male vs Female and all in between.  The Earth is changing before EVERYONE and we can't deny the truth anymore. Do not be afraid, Yeshua is on the Way.  The Military will step in at the right time to act as the ref and the judge for mankind.  With the help of Admiral Rogers ((NSA)) and the White Hats ((Q and Q+ Anons+Digital Soldiers)) and all the please tell us about the  "In Tell Us Gents" truth   . No more "Tel Us A Visions" through the eye of Cain. The last 22 years has been the battle of all battles. I feel honored to have played my part. I had good, bad and some ugly. The next phase will be epic. No more sit on the fence. It's Cain or Abel bro. We have all been taught Right and Wrong, right? Now it's time to choose. I know you man, you will choose the Light and the Truth because the Truth will set your ass free!!! I love you and Wat Fly man


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> There you go again. Authoritarianism.
> 
> So now Europe is finding trouble with another one of the vaccines.
> 
> You would mandate the vax on people who have no risk.
> 
> Bad policy...on which you have been very consistent.
> 
> Funny how we keep finding out that certain groups shouldn't take this or that vaccine. And yet you want to mandate them.
> 
> Long term studies are needed.
> 
> 
> _PARIS, France - The Moderna Covid jab carries a slight risk of usually non-serious heart problems a study of the entire population of Denmark found Friday.
> 
> Incidences of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the tissue surrounding the heart) after mRNA jabs from Pfizer and Moderna had been noted in vaccine safety reports and small-scale studies.
> 
> *These reports led France, Denmark and other countries to advise against the jab for people under 30 years old.*
> 
> "Vaccination with mRNA-1273 (Moderna) was associated with a significantly increased rate of myocarditis or myopericarditis, especially among individuals aged 12-39 years," the study said._


I swear I feel like this sometimes at 55 now.  I get a little burn sometimes around my chest and I get a little scared.  This is part of old life Hound Dog.  I love you man


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> The federal government is not mandating vaccination either - unless you are expecting to feed at their trough.  Only federal workers, federal contractors, and healthcare providers receiving federal Medicare or Medicaid funding.  How ironic that the people who are complaining that the federal government is overreaching are actually the ones who are overreaching, only they're doing it into the government's pockets.


So you think OSHA/Biden's mandate for private businesses >100 employees is dead in the water? Same story with LAUSD vaccination requirement for students?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad wants to mandate vaccines. Do they work vs the O? I don't know but mandate everyone over 18 that cant run a 6 minute mile to get vaxxed.

And yet what are we finding? 


_A new study out of Columbia University says the Omicron variant is “markedly resistant” to vaccines and boosters might not do much to help, spelling bad news for the country as Omicron spreads and COVID-19 cases rise nationally.









						‘Striking’ vaccine resistance in Omicron variant: Columbia University
					

A new study out of Columbia University says the Omicron variant is “markedly resistant” to vaccines and boosters might not do much to help, spelling bad news for the country.




					nypost.com
				



_


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> Another concession that the vaccination doesn't prevent spread of the virus.  Yet the government is still trying to mandate the vaccination.
> 
> Cal/OSHA New Pandemic Rules Don’t Distinguish Vaccinated – NBC 7 San Diego (nbcsandiego.com)


Ouch.. that will lead to school shutdowns.  None too surprised here.


----------



## crush

It's all Trumps fault.  That Chump sure messed up of all our happy normal lives.  It's all t's fault that we find ourselves in hell together.  That's right folks, were all in hell right now.  We created hell together and no one to blame but ourselves.  However, hell is what you make it.  I'm here to help you turn your personal hell into a living and breathing paradise right here on earth.  I will have a more to share later.  In the mean time, stop beeing mean to others and look to help others instaed, regardless of jab or no jab or mask or no mask.  Let's all except each other's fears together.  This Minister took all the jabs.  He's starting to act weirder.  Watch out folks!!!


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> There you go again. Authoritarianism.
> 
> So now Europe is finding trouble with another one of the vaccines.
> 
> You would mandate the vax on people who have no risk.
> 
> Bad policy...on which you have been very consistent.
> 
> Funny how we keep finding out that certain groups shouldn't take this or that vaccine. And yet you want to mandate them.
> 
> Long term studies are needed.
> 
> 
> _PARIS, France - The Moderna Covid jab carries a slight risk of usually non-serious heart problems a study of the entire population of Denmark found Friday.
> 
> Incidences of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the tissue surrounding the heart) after mRNA jabs from Pfizer and Moderna had been noted in vaccine safety reports and small-scale studies.
> 
> *These reports led France, Denmark and other countries to advise against the jab for people under 30 years old.*
> 
> "Vaccination with mRNA-1273 (Moderna) was associated with a significantly increased rate of myocarditis or myopericarditis, especially among individuals aged 12-39 years," the study said._


The first time you guys raised the unsafe vaccine argument, it was to complain that J&J has the same risk as driving a car 50 miles.  Now you are complaining about a myocarditis risk that is even smaller.

Your argument has absolutely nothing to do with risk.   The risk from J&J is 0.0000005, nine deaths per 17 million patients.  And that’s the higher risk one.  

It has everything to do with you and grace buying into a politicized argument that covid is a nothing burger.   But you can’t say that, because it’s hard to argue that 800,000 deaths is nothing. 

Which leaves you defending the notion that 800,000 deaths is minor, but nine deaths is a huge problem.  I have no idea how you can simultaneously believe both these concepts.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> "GG" warning everyone!!!


You called it.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Desantis is just mini-t.


everyone is Mini-T with a R next to their name according to the left


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The first time you guys raised the unsafe vaccine argument, it was to complain that J&J has the same risk as driving a car 50 miles.  Now you are complaining about a myocarditis risk that is even smaller.
> 
> Your argument has absolutely nothing to do with risk.   The risk from J&J is 0.0000005, nine deaths per 17 million patients.  And that’s the higher risk one.
> 
> It has everything to do with you and grace buying into a politicized argument that covid is a nothing burger.   But you can’t say that, because it’s hard to argue that 800,000 deaths is nothing.
> 
> Which leaves you defending the notion that 800,000 deaths is minor, but nine deaths is a huge problem.  I have no idea how you can simultaneously believe both these concepts.


Nine deaths out of 17 million is about the same risk as someone under 12 being killed by Covid.  So if 9 deaths in young people from the vaccination is not very relevant neither is the Covid deaths for those under 12.

The last leg of your stool, mandate to prevent community spread, has just been broken off.   The vaccines don't prevent spread of the virus as breakthrough infections are quite common.  California is now admitting it with their new policies.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> everyone is Mini-T with a R next to their name according to the left


What does the left think of Liz Cheney?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> What does the left think of Liz Cheney?


Umm, mini-Dick?


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> everyone is Mini-T with a R next to their name according to the left


Back in 2016, I had a (I) next to my name and was not into politics at all and I was still blamed for t because I want adoptions, not abortions.  I also wanted cheating to stop in youth soccer.  When HRC lost because of Seth and James, social media and the news went cray cray.  I saw on Facebook how so called friendships were conditional.  I saw guys from old days draw redline and if you are for adoptions, your on meds and support everything t ever said or did in his life.  Scary times we live in Brav 520.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> What does the left think of Liz Cheney?


You tell me


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> So you think OSHA/Biden's mandate for private businesses >100 employees is dead in the water? Same story with LAUSD vaccination requirement for students?


There is a weekly testing alternative with the 100+ mandate dumbshit, so carry on with your "woe is me" misrepresentations.

As for LAUSD, it was planning to allow remote learning for those douches who didn't want to get vaccinated, but it also abandoned the proposal until at least the fall.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> There is a weekly testing alternative with the 100+ mandate dumbshit, so carry on with your "woe is me" misrepresentations.
> 
> As for LAUSD, it was planning to allow remote learning for those douches who didn't want to get vaccinated, but it also abandoned the proposal until at least the fall.


I will take that as a "yes" that they're dead in the water.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Nine deaths out of 17 million is about the same risk as someone under 12 being killed by Covid.  So if 9 deaths in young people from the vaccination is not very relevant neither is the Covid deaths for those under 12.
> 
> The last leg of your stool, mandate to prevent community spread, has just been broken off.   The vaccines don't prevent spread of the virus as breakthrough infections are quite common.  California is now admitting it with their new policies.


Covid deaths among those under 12 are quite rare.  As you said, not very relevant.

But you’ve got the numbers wrong for community spread, at least for delta.  This article puts the reduction at around 50%:









						What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?
					

COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than...



					www.thelancet.com
				




Cutting transmission in half among the currently unvaccinated is enough to essentially eliminate delta in the US.  That one is relevant.  Delta is still killing about one person per minute in the US.  

Omicron?  Still waiting on data.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> dad wants to mandate vaccines. Do they work vs the O? I don't know but mandate everyone over 18 that cant run a 6 minute mile to get vaxxed.
> 
> And yet what are we finding?
> 
> 
> _A new study out of Columbia University says the Omicron variant is “markedly resistant” to vaccines and boosters might not do much to help, spelling bad news for the country as Omicron spreads and COVID-19 cases rise nationally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Striking’ vaccine resistance in Omicron variant: Columbia University
> 
> 
> A new study out of Columbia University says the Omicron variant is “markedly resistant” to vaccines and boosters might not do much to help, spelling bad news for the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


My colleagues are down with the big 0...spouses now too....bad flu so far (which is what they mean by "mild").....all triple vaxxed.


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> You tell me


I think Cheney is a principled person with whom I disagree on several issues.

I wish we had more like her in politics, on both sides.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I will take that as a "yes" that they're dead in the water.


That is one way to deflect that you're a liar and misrepresenting that the big bad federal government is making you get vaccinated.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It has everything to do with you and grace buying into a politicized argument that covid is a nothing burger.   But you can’t say that, because it’s hard to argue that 800,000 deaths is nothing.


It's not that it's a nothing burger.  It's that the cost/benefit does not justify some of the policies you are advocating: whether masks, school closures, vaccine mandates or lockdowns.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Covid deaths among those under 12 are quite rare.  As you said, not very relevant.
> 
> But you’ve got the numbers wrong for community spread, at least for delta.  This article puts the reduction at around 50%:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting transmission in half among the currently unvaccinated is enough to essentially eliminate delta in the US.  That one is relevant.  Delta is still killing about one person per minute in the US.
> 
> Omicron?  Still waiting on data.


50% is poor and is clearly not enough to prevent widespread infection.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Ouch.. that will lead to school shutdowns.  None too surprised here.


I will not be surprised if schools open 2-4 weeks late after break.

Depends on whether Omicron causes mass hospitalizations.   Even if it happens, the high transmission rate means the case spike should be short.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> My colleagues are down with the big 0...spouses now too....bad flu so far (which is what they mean by "mild").....all triple vaxxed.


I heard a rumor my neighbor down the street just went down for the count with the Big O.  Were all a part of a  dog walkers club and he has not been seen in a few days.  Other neighbor told me the bad news.  His name is Niko, please pray for him.  I saw sim a week ago and he told me he felt like shit.  Triple Vaxed as well because he trusts his health pros.  I got Rona back in Jan 20, 2020 up in Kirkland, WA.  Then I think I got the Delta and I believe I got Omicron a few weeks ago.  I have never felt stronger in my life and I mean that.  Old pal saw me and he did the double take and said, "you keep getting thinner."  I was so encouraged by his encouragement and the props of losing weight.  I tell you all it's because I eat fruits, veggies, salads, nuts and Thai.  No booze either.  I meditate early in the morning as the Son helps me rise above politics and division.  Imagine if you all will a place where honesty, openness and transparency ((HOT)) rule the land.  Truth & Justice is the Law of the Land and and and no more cheating and no more disease and hate   Imagine all the people in love with each other.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> That is one way to deflect that you're a liar and misrepresenting that the big bad federal government is making you get vaccinated.


I will take that as a complement coming from king of deflection and pretend enemies.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I will not be surprised if schools open 2-4 weeks late after break.
> 
> Depends on whether Omicron causes mass hospitalizations.   Even if it happens, the high transmission rate means the case spike should be short.


South Africa is doing just find and that's where Omicron was born.  Did Omicron take it's self to America and the UK?  Notice the states Omicron was first detected?  Man, fool me once, shame on me.  Fool me twice, shame on the cheaters.  Fool me three times the lady then it's all bets off.  What a cheater & liar you have become.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> 50% is poor and is clearly not enough to prevent widespread infection.


That number will quickly grow, Omicron will outcompete delta in the next few weeks.   With poor vaccine performance against Omicron, cases will continue to climb.  Cross fingers and hope we follow same hospitalization trend as SA.  While Delta will still impact some, soon Omicron will become the dominant strain.  Not neccessarily a bad thing.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Desantis is just mini-t.


The before and after t is a complete makeover








						The problem with Ron DeSantis' mini-Trump pose | CNN
					

The Florida governor has absorbed the former president's style of politics, and can deliver an approximation of his showmanship in a much younger package. That makes him a threat, writes Ruth Ben-Ghiat. Whatever DeSantis's future plans for his mini-Trump brand, he might take heed of the fates of...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> 50% is poor and is clearly not enough to prevent widespread infection.


Ask anyone who actually understands the science.  For Delta, your gut is just wrong.  A 50% reduction to delta transmission would nearly eliminate the disease in the US.  

For Omicron, a 50% reduction would merely flatten the curve a bit.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I heard a rumor my neighbor down the street just went down for the count with the Big O.  Were all a part of a  dog walkers club and he has not been seen in a few days.  Other neighbor told me the bad news.  His name is Niko, please pray for him.  I saw sim a week ago and he told me he felt like shit.  Triple Vaxed as well because he trusts his health pros.  I got Rona back in Jan 20, 2020 up in Kirkland, WA.  Then I think I got the Delta and I believe I got Omicron a few weeks ago.  I have never felt stronger in my life and I mean that.  Old pal saw me and he did the double take and said, "you keep getting thinner."  I was so encouraged by his encouragement and the props of losing weight.  I tell you all it's because I eat fruits, veggies, salads, nuts and Thai.  No booze either.  I meditate early in the morning as the Son helps me rise above politics and division.  Imagine if you all will a place where honesty, openness and transparency ((HOT)) rule the land.  Truth & Justice is the Law of the Land and and and no more cheating and no more disease and hate   Imagine all the people in love with each other.


How do you feed your children?  Mooching off the state?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> That number will quickly grow, Omicron will outcompete delta in the next few weeks.   With poor vaccine performance against Omicron, cases will continue to climb.  Cross fingers and hope we follow same hospitalization trend as SA.  While Delta will still impact some, soon Omicron will become the dominant strain.  Not neccessarily a bad thing.


Hey dude, this Joe guy is not to be trusted.  Basically, when he speaks, think the opposite of what he is telling you bro.  For example, yesterday he said death was coming this Christmas to us who were not jabbed.  He said our Holiday will be a surge of darkness.  I walk and live in the light.  I'm not perfect but I live HOT everyday.  This one boomerang has me concerned for all my friends who got third shots and have told me their get more and more as long as their doctor tells them to take boosters.  Every three months seems like a little too much but I guess once this stuff hits your veins, you want more and more.


----------



## what-happened

crush said:


> Hey dude, this Joe guy is not to be trusted.  Basically, when he speaks, think the opposite of what he is telling you bro.  For example, yesterday he said death was coming this Christmas to us who were not jabbed.  He said our Holiday will be a surge of darkness.  I walk and live in the light.  I'm not perfect but I live HOT everyday.  This one boomerang has me concerned for all my friends who got third shots and have told me their get more and more as long as their doctor tells them to take boosters.  Every three months seems like a little too much but I guess once this stuff hits your veins, you want more and more.


Grandpa Joe just needs some hot cocoa and a blanket.  And don't speak to him close when it's cloe to bedtime, he gets cranky.


----------



## crush

*The Great "GG" as arrived.  He can only be in one place at a time.  Go away monster man who chose wrong instead of right.  It's that simple of a game.  *


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The before and after t is a complete makeover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with Ron DeSantis' mini-Trump pose | CNN
> 
> 
> The Florida governor has absorbed the former president's style of politics, and can deliver an approximation of his showmanship in a much younger package. That makes him a threat, writes Ruth Ben-Ghiat. Whatever DeSantis's future plans for his mini-Trump brand, he might take heed of the fates of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Notice that there is only passing mention of Covid policy, other than that no mention of policies, only personality.  Right now the Dem's can't compete on policy (current movement away from anti-police policies is a step in the right direction), so they have to go with the ad-hominem angle.

Character matters, although this is more of a personality attack, but policies matter more.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Ask anyone who actually understands the science.  For Delta, your gut is just wrong.  A 50% reduction to delta transmission would nearly eliminate the disease in the US.
> 
> For Omicron, a 50% reduction would merely flatten the curve a bit.


You stick with numbers, I will stick to reality.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Grandpa Joe just needs some hot cocoa and a blanket.  And don't speak to him close when it's cloe to bedtime, he gets cranky.


I knew I was voting for a senile grandpa back in November.  He is declining in office, just as I knew he would.

Give us a decent alternative.  The last time, my only other choice was an overweight man-child incapable of basic civil behavior.  His giant temper tantrum on Jan 06, 2021 only reinforces my opinion of the man.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I knew I was voting for a senile grandpa back in November.  He is declining in office, just as I knew he would.
> 
> Give us a decent alternative.  The last time, my only other choice was an overweight man-child incapable of basic civil behavior.  His giant temper tantrum on Jan 06, 2021 only reinforces my opinion of the man.


Why would we deliberatly vote for someone we know is going to fail miserably/dangerously.  JAN 6 is certainly a divisive topic, one hyped up by both sides of the aisle.  The characterization on both sides has been to the detriment of our country.  

With that said, our democracy is based on choices, you made yours. No we are suffereing the consequences of even greater incompetence than the previous administration.  I'm no trump advocate but things have gotten much worse. The odds on getting trump 2.0 during the next cycle are increasing.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I knew I was voting for a senile grandpa back in November.  He is declining in office, just as I knew he would.
> 
> Give us a decent alternative.  The last time, my only other choice was an overweight man-child incapable of basic civil behavior.  His giant temper tantrum on Jan 06, 2021 only reinforces my opinion of the man.


Meh...Biden might have done him a favor.....look at the by election that Johnson just lost in a very very safe Tory spot, 65% Brexit supporting.  If an incumbent supports COVID restrictions, but has members of his party (or him/herself) not adhere to them, and such restrictions fail to control the virus (not to mention the resulting economic harm), it's election suicide.

For you it has the added unfortunate dynamic that as people turn against Biden, and get the knives out for him, they drift more to our side of thinking on the restrictions.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Stop it with the dualistic politics bro.  The D vs R and Right vs Left and Democratic vs Republican is no more.  No more Capitalism Vs Communism or Liberal vs Progressives.  No more Male vs Female and all in between.  The Earth is changing before EVERYONE and we can't deny the truth anymore. Do not be afraid, Yeshua is on the Way.  The Military will step in at the right time to act as the ref and the judge for mankind.  With the help of Admiral Rogers ((NSA)) and the White Hats ((Q and Q+)) and all the please tell us about the  "In Tell Us Gents" the truth   .  No more Tel Us A Visions" through the eye of Cain.  The last 22 years has been the battle of all battles.  I feel honored to have played my part.  I had good, bad and some ugly.  The next phase will be epic.  No more sit on the fence.  It's Cain or Abel bro.  We have all been taught Right and Wrong, right?  Now it's time to choose.  I know you man, you will choose the Light and the Truth because the Truth will set your ass free!!!  I love you and Wat Fly man


It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Meh...Biden might have done him a favor.....look at the by election that Johnson just lost in a very very safe Tory spot, 65% Brexit supporting.  If an incumbent supports COVID restrictions, but has members of his party (or him/herself) not adhere to them, and such restrictions fail to control the virus (not to mention the resulting economic harm), it's election suicide.
> 
> For you it has the added unfortunate dynamic that as people turn against Biden, and get the knives out for him, they drift more to our side of thinking on the restrictions.


Other than parents whose kids education keeps getting disrupted by inane Covid policies, I don't see Covid being a pivotal issue for most people.  It will be the economic and crime policies.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Other than parents whose kids education keeps getting disrupted by inane Covid policies, I don't see Covid being a pivotal issue for most people.  It will be the economic and crime policies.


The Tory by election and Virginia exit polling results beg to differ, but even then the economic and crime policies are sort of linked to COVID.  Those don't get fixed until COVID gets through and are linked to it.


----------



## Grace T.

Early data shows deaths across all ages significantly lower with the omicron


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471749391585214465


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The Tory by election and Virginia exit polling results beg to differ, but even then the economic and crime policies are sort of linked to COVID.  Those don't get fixed until COVID gets through and are linked to it.


Well that's my gut feeling and Dad4 said not to trust my gut, so I very well could be wrong.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Notice that there is only passing mention of Covid policy, other than that no mention of policies, only personality.  Right now the Dem's can't compete on policy (current movement away from anti-police policies is a step in the right direction), so they have to go with the ad-hominem angle.
> 
> Character matters, although this is more of a personality attack, but policies matter more.


It’s just an article about how Disantis is trying so hard to be just like his meal ticket and hero. Crazy sells, bigly in Florida!


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The first time you guys raised the unsafe vaccine argument, it was to complain that J&J has the same risk as driving a car 50 miles.  Now you are complaining about a myocarditis risk that is even smaller.
> 
> Your argument has absolutely nothing to do with risk.   The risk from J&J is 0.0000005, nine deaths per 17 million patients.  And that’s the higher risk one.
> 
> It has everything to do with you and grace buying into a politicized argument that covid is a nothing burger.   But you can’t say that, because it’s hard to argue that 800,000 deaths is nothing.
> 
> Which leaves you defending the notion that 800,000 deaths is minor, but nine deaths is a huge problem.  I have no idea how you can simultaneously believe both these concepts.


And yet the gov authorities are telling certain groups not to take the drug. If it were minor as you say, they would not do what they are doing. They clearly have concerns and as such are making recommendations that certain groups should not take the vaxx. 

That is how they normally work with drugs on the market. They study them for a number of years and make decisions after that. 

You conveniently bypass that. 

We also don't know if there are other issues for certain groups. 

You conveniently by pass that. 

And as you bypass that you want to mandate people to take a vax when we don't know who is or might be at risk etc. 

It is terrible policy. But then again most of your ideas are bad policy.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s just an article about how Disantis is trying so hard to be just like his meal ticket and hero. Crazy sells, bigly in Florida!


Well that wouldn't be my approach, of course, we'd all be in trouble if I ran for office.  Not my first choice but I'd probably vote for him if that was my option vs the current Dem options, which only makes me half crazy.   Wasn't Florida well known for crazy long before DeSantis?


----------



## N00B

Desert Hound said:


> And yet the gov authorities are telling certain groups not to take the drug. If it were minor as you say, they would not do what they are doing. They clearly have concerns and as such are making recommendations that certain groups should not take the vaxx.


When did adverse effects only count if the result is death.  Adverse is adverse… dad4 knows it, but is only discussing it from a singular perspective.


----------



## Grace T.

Public except for the panic 1/3 is done.  Team reality has won the middle.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471963439333531655


----------



## Grace T.

Worse and worse for the white house and teachers unions on school closures


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471846775245967365


----------



## crush

*Heart inflammation cases emerge among 5- to 11-year-old kids after COVID-19 shot: CDC*
*Most patients with the inflammation 'felt better quickly' after receiving medication, rest*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Well that wouldn't be my approach, of course, we'd all be in trouble if I ran for office.  Not my first choice but I'd probably vote for him if that was my option vs the current Dem options, which only makes me half crazy.   Wasn't Florida well known for crazy long before DeSantis?


Am I the only one here that laughs every time a person from CA identifies another state as “crazy”?


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Worse and worse for the white house and teachers unions on school closures
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471846775245967365


This is about as surprising as learning that the Chinese lab was the likely source of Covid.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Am I the only one here that laughs every time a person from CA identifies another state as “crazy”?


Apples and oranges.  Woke crazy vs inbred crazy.  









						Florida Man: what lies behind the Sunshine State's crazy stereotype?
					

Brawling Easter bunnies, alligator-filled pants, naked basketball … all reflect Florida’s antic spirit but perhaps also its darker side




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> When did adverse effects only count if the result is death.  Adverse is adverse… dad4 knows it, but is only discussing it from a singular perspective.


You can do that.  But you also have to count all of the non-fatal covid hospitalizations.  Those are adverse, too.

Result is still the same.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Public except for the panic 1/3 is done.  Team reality has won the middle.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471963439333531655


Some of the responses are like the Colorado governor and Howard Stern.

People are tired of jumping through hoops to save people who won‘t save themselves.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Am I the only one here that laughs every time a person from CA identifies another state as “crazy”?


California is a deeply diverse area.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> People are tired of jumping through hoops to save people who won‘t save themselves.


Well that is a point that continually escapes you again and again. 

You have taken your shots. You wear the N95, etc. You have protected yourself. You will still get and transmit the virus. You are in an age group that vaxx or not you are not at risk. Now even less so with the vaxx...

And so with that in mind....

If someone else doesn't want to do what you do, move on.


----------



## Grace T.

First domino in the remote learning chain.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471950816059793422


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Some of the responses are like the Colorado governor and Howard Stern.
> 
> People are tired of jumping through hoops to save people who won‘t save themselves.


They should be.  Know it's the job of a preacher but you can't save adults from themselves.  Stupid is going to stupid but we allow people the freedom to be stupid.  Otherwise, you shouldn't allow them to vote, to pick their jobs, or to decide whether to have kids or not, or to do certain activities (ranging from soccer to football to extreme sports or even big gulp sodas), because many of those are equally consequential and have a direct impact on others.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s just an article about how Disantis is trying so hard to be just like his meal ticket and hero. Crazy sells, bigly in Florida!


Painting DeSantis as the next Trump or I’ve even seen articles claiming he is worse than Trump is going be an almost impossible sell

you can’t scream that Hitler was in office for 4 years , and think that same tatic is going apply to whomever the next R candidate is. Most of the people in the middle are just going roll their eyes

also, and this is big,  DeSantis doesn’t sit on Twitter insulting celebrities or whatever other nonsense Trump tweeted about all day


----------



## crush

The school Domino just fell looking to shut down hoop teams.  UCLA vs NC just got cancelled because UCLA's team is on pause with Omicron, Delta or Corona outbreak.  Whatever is going on the jabs did not help protect the team from getting sick.  This sucks for my buddy who flew up to gamble tonight and party and watch big game.  He hates playing poker with a mask too but he loves to play poker.  









						UCLA on COVID pause; UNC to play Kentucky
					

With UCLA and Ohio State having dropped out of the CBS Sports Classic in Las Vegas because of COVID-19 issues within the programs, North Carolina and Kentucky will now play each other at T-Mobile Arena on Saturday, sources confirmed to ESPN.




					www.espn.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> They should be.  Know it's the job of a preacher but you can't save adults from themselves.  Stupid is going to stupid but we allow people the freedom to be stupid.  Otherwise, you shouldn't allow them to vote, to pick their jobs, or to decide whether to have kids or not, or to do certain activities (ranging from soccer to football to extreme sports or even big gulp sodas), because many of those are equally consequential and have a direct impact on others.


At one level, over the past 6 months, roughly 50-80 million anti-vax covidiots have kept Delta alive, killing off 200,000 of themselves.

Tough to watch, but stupid is stupid.

At the same time, perhaps ten thousand (?) of the deaths are among people who had no choice in it.   These are people with compromised immune systems and people whose surgery or cancer screening got delayed to free up hospital space for the covidiots. 

This is why I am ok with closing bars and restautants and other high risk places to the covidiots.  It's one thing to say people have a right to self harm.  In this case they are harming others.


----------



## crush

I learned something very true the last 5 years some years.  Real Criminals ((Criminals for life)) never tell the truth, they just continue to lie.  That's what liars do, they lie.


----------



## crush

Dr. Liar wants to change the jab terminology from "mandates" to "requirements."


----------



## Brav520

As Omicron Hits, COVID-19 Case Counts Don't Mean What They Used To
					

COVID-19 hospitalizations instead of case counts should determine our public health measures to fight the Omicron variant wave




					time.com


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> As Omicron Hits, COVID-19 Case Counts Don't Mean What They Used To
> 
> 
> COVID-19 hospitalizations instead of case counts should determine our public health measures to fight the Omicron variant wave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com


We were told when the Covid fear push would end.

2020 presidential election + 1 year = November 2021

When was the Omicron variant discovered?

Democrat party death spiral?

Think WW herd immunity/loss of Covid narrative.

Think loss of control through FEAR.

Think resignations.

Think allegations.

Think crimes against children uniting across party lines.

Think Biden admin dumpster fire.

Think HRC desperation.

Think Build Back Better is DEAD.

Think federalizing elections unconstitutional.

Think Voter ID rights being established.

Think inevitable red wave in 2022.

Think inevitable return of Trump.

Think PANIC IN DC. 

Q


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Governor Newsome says, "the overwhelming majority of Omicron cases have been of the fully vaccinated ((Let that sink in your brains for a minute and then respond to yourself how you really feel)).  That's why masking becomes even more important in this environment."


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Governor Newsome says, "the overwhelming majority of Omicron cases have been of the fully vaccinated ((Let that sink in your brains for a minute and then respond to yourself how you really feel)).  That's why masking becomes even more important in this environment."











						I Canceled My Birthday Party Because of Omicron
					

Here’s how I thought through the decision.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> I Canceled My Birthday Party Because of Omicron
> 
> 
> Here’s how I thought through the decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Covid is over now.  It's now Omicron or bust.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Covid is over now.  It's now Omicron or bust.


2 years to slow the spread


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> At one level, over the past 6 months, roughly 50-80 million anti-vax covidiots have kept Delta alive, killing off 200,000 of themselves.
> 
> Tough to watch, but stupid is stupid.
> 
> At the same time, perhaps ten thousand (?) of the deaths are among people who had no choice in it.   These are people with compromised immune systems and people whose surgery or cancer screening got delayed to free up hospital space for the covidiots.
> 
> This is why I am ok with closing bars and restautants and other high risk places to the covidiots.  It's one thing to say people have a right to self harm.  In this case they are harming others.


If the vaccines "work"(ie, prevent severe illness) then there's no case for closing anything-- everyone who wants one is vaxxed and stupid will stupid.  The immunocompromised are not a valid reason.  If they were, you'd advocate for permanent masking and flu vaccine mandates every winter.  For them, they are just as much of risk for that (not to mention shutting down the day cares to prevent RSV outbreaks).  You can protect glass rod people or we'd have to reorganize all of existence.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> 2 years to slow the spread


Next month is my two year remembrance of being in Kirkland, WA and the virus I caught on the plane on my way back.  I won't lie, I had some fear of the unknown with Covid when it came from the Wuhan lab.  When the nursing home deaths came from Kirkland, and my whole plane was sick with the Rona, I got some fear late at night a few days later when I got super duper sick.  I was out for days bro all alone in my room.  I felt like shit and everyone stayed away from me.  I was already trying to quit eating meat at this time but would eat it once week as a cheat meal and a reward for obeying my wife.  I sure loved meat brother Brav 520.  I like you by the way.  I feel a kindred spirit with you and you seem honest.  Happy Christmas to you and all who you love man   BTW, I quit meat all together right around Jan 20th, 2020, I swear man.  Not bragging at all.  I miss Canes so much though.  However, I love how I feel without meat better, if that makes any sense to you.  I told my wife she was right and I was wrong ((she predicted much of all that is happening)) and I told God I choose right over wrong when I was on my Rona death bed.  If I do wrong and I will, I pick myself back up and try again.  With that game winning attitude, I find myself doing right way more then wrong and that makes me happy and especially my wife and dd,  The both have said I have changed for the better the last two years


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Next month is my two year remembrance of being in Kirkland, WA and the virus I caught on the plane on my way back.  I won't lie, I had some fear of the unknown with Covid when it came from the Wuhan lab.  When the nursing home deaths came from Kirkland, and my whole plane was sick with the Rona, I got some fear late at night a few days later when I got super duper sick.  I was out for days bro all alone in my room.  I felt like shit and everyone stayed away from me.  I was already trying to quit eating meat at this time but would eat it once week as a cheat meal and a reward for obeying my wife.  I sure loved meat brother Brav 520.  I like you by the way.  I feel a kindred spirit with you and you seem honest.  Happy Christmas to you and all who you love man  BTW, I quit meat all together right around Jan 20th, 2020, I swear man. Not bragging at all. I miss Canes so much though. However, I love how I feel without meat better, if that makes any sense to you. I told my wife she was right and I was wrong ((she predicted much of all that is happening)) and I told God I choose right over wrong when I was on my Rona death bed. If I do wrong and I will, I pick myself back up and try again. With that game winning attitude, I find myself doing right way more then wrong and that makes me happy and especially my wife and dd, The both have said I have changed for the better the last two years


2 years ago, did you even know what it was at the time ? I feel like testing didn’t even really start until late February ( could be remembering wrong )

I can’t do no meat , more power to you. I do try to eat a low carb diet , and cut out drinking completely 3 years ago

merry Xmas to you and your family!


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> 2 years ago, did you even know what it was at the time ? I feel like testing didn’t even really start until late February ( could be remembering wrong )
> 
> I can’t do no meat , more power to you. I do try to eat a low carb diet , and cut out drinking completely 3 years ago
> 
> merry Xmas to you and your family!


Jan 20th, 2020 was when it was starting to catch waves from wuhan.  No test, it was just obvious we were all sick.  My wife got it as did my dd.


----------



## crush

The "Book Deal Scam."  This is how you buy folks with bribes and kickbacks.  For example:

*1.  A high ranking politician arranges a contract for publishing co.  *
For example, Obama arranged for a govt. contract to Pearson Publishing Co. for $350,000,000

*2.  Later on, that politician gets a "book deal" in return.  = $$$ "Kickback". *
In Obama's case, he got a *$65,000,000 *book deal later.  ((This is how you do it folks))

3.  Coincidently, after the FBI discovered it, The CEO of Pearson, John Fallon, abruptly announced his "early retirement."

*4.  Another coincidence- *Comey, Joey "bribes" Biden, Brennon and McBribe, also got book-deals from MacMillion Pub co, a subsidiary of Pearson Pub Co. and they ALL got millions.

*5.  Another Coincidence !! =* MacMillan Publ was owned by Robert Maxwell, father of Ghislaine Maxwell, whom is Jeffrey Epstein's sex procurer.


----------



## crush

The key to this scary ass "Crime Thriller" we have all been watching and participating in whether we like it or not, is the *"Keystone."  WHO is the Keystone?  One holds the key to the truth.*  Where oh where is he.  Did he get murdered?  Did he really kill himself in prison?  He's alive!!!  He will be called upon to help us sort this shit out.  I think he's the type of man that would have cut a deal a long time ago. His last known words were and I quote, "Fuck you Bill!".  He and his "knows it all girlfriend" have it all on video and lot's of photos to boot.  Everyone's name is on "The List" to the Islands.  It's sick you guys.  This takes "To Catch A Predator(s)" to a whole new level.  In in order to catch ALL the Predators, you must get to the very deepest root of evil out there.  Must of us have no idea how evil this evil is.  This kind of "wrong" will make us all sick for sometime.  Depressed and many will feel guilty for not taking this serious, meaning protecting the children and the elderly and sick.  We were ruled by some of the most evil criminals a criminal mind has ever known.  Some of these politicians thought they were being rewarded for a job well done and got way deeper into some serious blackmail shit none of us can comprehend.  Again, if you got a facetime call by some contract killer with your boy next to a wood chipper, what would you do?  Put yourself in some of these politicians and famous people's shoes.  Not easy to fill those shoes when you peal the onion back.  You see, many thought they had the good life when in reality only the top top folks who ran with you know WHO had the life.  The rest were bought, bribed and blackmailed.  We need to have empathy for many because many were born into this life style as well.  You don't know right from wrong because you were only taught wrong.


----------



## crush

Crush had this thought about all his friends and family and why they obeyed shot after shot after booster + more boosters + mask indoors + social get away from me mindset for the rest of your life on earth.

You all comply because you want it to end, right?  You want to go back to normal so bad you comply.  However, because you comply, this may never end.  How many shits is too many?  Come on, man!!!


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Crush had this thought about all his friends and family and why they obeyed shot after shot after booster + more boosters + mask indoors + social get away from me mindset for the rest of your life on earth.
> 
> You all comply because you want it to end, right?  You want to go back to normal so bad you comply.  However, because you comply, this may never end.  How many shits is too many?  Come on, man!!!











						Biden's Year 1 accomplishments outlined in new memo
					

The memo White House communications sent Democratic lawmakers included numbers on COVID vaccines, child poverty and schools opening.




					www.axios.com


----------



## Brav520

Sources: The NFL and NFLPA are working to finalize an overhaul to their COVID-19 testing. Likely, as part of that ...

• No change for unvaccinated guys (Daily testing).

• Those vaccinated AND asymptomatic only subject to spot testing.

• Vaccinated with symptoms get tested.


----------



## crush

OUR BEAUTIFUL UK BROTHERS AND SISTERS KNOW IT'S TIME FOR FREEDOM FIESTA!!! LET'S GO!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> 2 years to slow the spread


Two years to arrest the rest is also why it took this long to stop the spread of pure evil.   These liars and cheaters and psychopaths are no more.    Trust me bro, we will all love how this movie ends.  However, we ALL must learn a big lesson so this never happens again.  The kids will unite us.  These people are sickos!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Brav520

MA high school basketball taking the proper pre cautions and wearing mask


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

[/QUOTE]
When is Florida mandating remote learning? Oh, that's right, they understand that it's much better for children to be in school





crush said:


> Crush had this thought about all his friends and family and why they obeyed shot after shot after booster + more boosters + mask indoors + social get away from me mindset for the rest of your life on earth.
> 
> You all comply because you want it to end, right?  You want to go back to normal so bad you comply.  However, because you comply, this may never end.  How many shits is too many?  Come on, man!!!


I don't "obey" vaccine mandates, @crush. I get the vaccine because I believe it is in my best interest - same reason I get the flu shot.

However, I am against many of the enforced restrictions - especially on children. Maybe we need to have some social justice protests to support the injustice done to children. You know, mostly peaceful with a few burning cars, buildings, etc. Many in the media and in political office have been very supportive of prior protests of that kind. I am sure they'd be equally supportive of children.


----------



## crush

When is Florida mandating remote learning? Oh, that's right, they understand that it's much better for children to be in school
*I don't "obey" vaccine mandates,* @crush. I get the vaccine because I believe it is in my best interest - same reason I get the flu shot.

However, I am against many of the enforced restrictions - especially on children. Maybe we need to have some social justice protests to support the injustice done to children. You know, mostly peaceful with a few burning cars, buildings, etc. Many in the media and in political office have been very supportive of prior protests of that kind. I am sure they'd be equally supportive of children.
[/QUOTE]
You choose to comply in "requirements" to participate or no thrills for you and I choose not too.  Those who comply get to keep their jobs and can enjoy the sports & entertainments access to watch pro stuff and have kids get to try to play at top level in college.  However, you and your kids have to take jabs and boosters in order to participate.  Do you see the problem?  Those WHO choose not to comply lose their ability to earn a living and get fired and mocked by psychopaths like GG.  Your with GG whether you like it or not.  Those in the middle of this and not taking a stand for their fellow patriot will wish he or her did when the truth is exposed.  Kickback city baby!!!  Trust me bro.  This is utter bull shit.  People losing their jobs and relationships over jab or no jab.  I would love for you guys to protest for the parents of children who now have run out of money to buy food and the pressure is hitting them harder and harder with nowhere to turn.  This is bull with shit and not funny any more brother.  Folks are hurting financially.  They lost their jobs, their businesses and now food is short.  Those who comply get to buy & sell and move around.  I hope you and Wat Fly get back to Normal.  I wish you could see how wrong this is.  Do you still believe this is in your best interest?  How many is too many?  Be honest man.  Or are you in it to the end?  You have to se the divide on this issue.  I sure hope you see the truth now.


----------



## crush

Trust the "science" aka people that constantly lie to us and keep changing the story.
					

Trust the "science" aka people that constantly lie to us and keep changing the story.  https://t.me/syriangirlpartisan/83




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

I dont think this jab was in the best interest of this child.  How long do I have to wait for you fence sitters to get off the fence???









						The body of a twice-jabbed 14 yr old apparently with Moderna, reacting to the last dose by violently
					

Video taken from Michael Yeadon (Real). - The body of a twice-jabbed 14 yr old apparently with Moderna, reacting to the last dose by violently convulsing.  Telegram: https://t.me/Yeadon_Michael




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Trust the "science" aka people that constantly lie to us and keep changing the story.
> 
> 
> Trust the "science" aka people that constantly lie to us and keep changing the story.  https://t.me/syriangirlpartisan/83
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


NYT re-upping this one today, why not 4 ?

One of the easiest ways to upgrade your mask protection is to wear two at the same time, health experts say. Here are answers to common questions about double masking









						How to Double Mask Correctly
					

Two masks can increase your protection against the coronavirus. Just make sure you know the dos and don’ts.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush

It Was A Masked Christmas by Lucifers Drug Pushers
					

Music Archive: https://earthnewspaper.com/category/music Donate And Support My Work: https://earthnewspaper.com/donate Dozens Of Articles And Videos Published Daily: https://EarthNewspaper.com 24/7 News: https://earthnewspaper.com/24-7-news-novem…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Yikes!!!  I did hear some good news this morning from a very reliable doctor friend.  He said you can take this to the bank.  Omicron will destroy Corona and Delta with one big contagious bug that will infect everyone and end pandemics forever.  

Remember Charles Leiber you guys?  Come on man, don;t act like you guys are stupid.  I would say I am the only one on here without a degree.  Most of you have at least two degrees so stop hiding and ducking a debate with an unschooled and ordinary man like crush.  We have lot's to fix. 

The Harvard chemistry professor was arrested in JANUARY of 2020 ((start of the Pandemic fellas)) because it was found that he was taking *$50K per month* from the CCP? He even *took some trips to Wuhan* between 2012 and 2017.

Also notable is the arrest of Zaosong Zheng in this indictment. "It is alleged that on Dec. 9, 2019, *Zheng stole 21 vials *of biological research and attempted to smuggle them out of the United States aboard a flight destined for China."


----------



## crush

Christmas Celebration this December 25th around the world!!!

TGIFS!!!  It's time celebrate everyone.  I got some of the most amazing news this morning that will blow you guys away.  Omicron is going to set us all free.  It's truly a time to celebrate!! Christmas will be like heaven this year.  Darkness lost!!!  It's time to party with your loved ones, regardless of jab or no jab.  No mask ands give hugs.  We all could use some hugs.  My house is going party because of the news I know to be true.  I love you all, even "GG."  Merry Christmas everyone and especially to Espola, Husler, Dad and GG.  I know we dont see eye to I on spiritual things the same way in our brains and that's ok.  I have learned the secret to life and I am here to share the truth with you guys.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Christmas Celebration this December 25th around the world!!!
> 
> TGIFS!!!  It's time celebrate everyone.  I got some of the most amazing news this morning that will blow you guys away.  Omicron is going to set us all free.  It's truly a time to celebrate!! Christmas will be like heaven this year.  Darkness lost!!!  It's time to party with your loved ones, regardless of jab or no jab.  No mask ands give hugs.  We all could use some hugs.  My house is going party because of the news I know to be true.  I love you all, even "GG."  Merry Christmas everyone and especially to Espola, Husler, Dad and GG.  I know we dont see eye to I on spiritual things the same way in our brains and that's ok.  I have learned the secret to life and I am here to share the truth with you guys.


Sort of.  Omicron will infect almost everyone, getting rid of Delta.   It will kill quite a few people along the way, mostly among the unvaccinated.  Hard for me to call that a celebration.

Dad4 guess:   Fewer ICU visits per case, but a ton more cases per day.   Case peak well above Delta.  Each area will have a hospitalization peak a little below delta, but all at the same time.  No five week gap to give the travel nurses time to get from Florida to Montana.  And enough breakthrough infections to cause significant staff absences.  So, staff shortages.  

But perhaps quieter after that.  More like Happy Valentine’s Day than Merry Christmas.


----------



## crush

No thanks bro.  Nice try scaring us with Omicron.  South Africa is only 27% vaccinated and Omicron came from there.  No one has died from this Omicron in SA.  No more Covid?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Sort of.  Omicron will infect almost everyone, getting rid of Delta.   It will kill quite a few people along the way, mostly among the unvaccinated.  Hard for me to call that a celebration.
> 
> Dad4 guess:   Fewer ICU visits per case, but a ton more cases per day.   Case peak well above Delta.  Each area will have a hospitalization peak a little below delta, but all at the same time.  No five week gap to give the travel nurses time to get from Florida to Montana.  And enough breakthrough infections to cause significant staff absences.  So, staff shortages.
> 
> But perhaps quieter after that.  More like Happy Valentine’s Day than Merry Christmas.


Dad, Yeshua loves you.  No one has died of Omicron like those who died with Covid.  Yes, people will die with Omicron virus in a car accident or gun shot and some will be jabbed and some will not be jabbed.  You will only hear about the unvax that die with Omicron.  *Why have over 128 pro futbol players this year have had heart attacks on the pitch?  Many have died or had to retire early and all have been jabbed?  Can you answer this Q honestly? * This is going to be interesting how you guys try to pull off this last attempt of ruining our country.  Good luck.  I'm sure Tuesday JB will come down hard on me and others who refuse to obey the requirements to participate in all that life had to offer us in the old days, like concerts, bars, events, disco, pubs, local pubs, college access, job and other places.  If you want to go back to normal, you need to obey the boss and take shots until I they say so.  As long as you guys obey the master and take shots that were obviously developed to destroy our country, the more hell you will all experience.  I am here to voice moo moo to the moon and back and I will never STFU, NEVER!!!   I will NEVER take a shot, NEVER.  My body my choice.  This is the end of the line.  It's about the kids and what people have done to them.  It's insane and will even make you puke!!!


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> No thanks bro.  Nice try scaring us with Omicron.  South Africa is only 27% vaccinated and Omicron came from there.  No one has died from this Omicron in SA.  No more Covid?


He’s mostly right:
1. It’s not true that no one has died in South Africa.  The uk has even had a couple omicron deaths. People die from the common cold all the time. It is true deaths are lower in all age groups, in both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, hospital stays are shorter, and icu cases are both shorter and lower
2. South Africa has a ton of natural immunity.  For that reason certain low vaxxed us places should be fine if they paid for it with delta
3. He’s right about the staffing problems but that’s mostly a policy issue about the response not the virus. Medical staff will be excluded if sick (and they all will be). In the uk we are seeing the problem isn’t the beds but the staff. Businesses and schools will be disrupted too because lots of people will be ill at once
4. The supply lines which have been recovering somewhat will teeter and maybe fall in some areas. Not much can be done if all your truck drivers are sick
5. In normal years everyone in such circumstances works through their colds. This year people will be forced to isolate.  The biggest saving grace though is the peaks will be short and won’t happen in the country all at once.  Dads right that January will test some areas but by February things may be a ok.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> He’s mostly right:
> 1. It’s not true that no one has died in South Africa.  The uk has even had a couple omicron deaths. People die from the common cold all the time. It is true deaths are lower in all age groups, in both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, hospital stays are shorter, and icu cases are both shorter and lower
> 2. South Africa has a ton of natural immunity.  For that reason certain low vaxxed us places should be fine if they paid for it with delta
> 3. He’s right about the staffing problems but that’s mostly a policy issue about the response not the virus. Medical staff will be excluded if sick (and they all will be). In the uk we are seeing the problem isn’t the beds but the staff. Businesses and schools will be disrupted too because lots of people will be ill at once
> 4. The supply lines which have been recovering somewhat will teeter and maybe fall in some areas. Not much can be done if all your truck drivers are sick
> 5. In normal years everyone in such circumstances works through their colds. This year people will be forced to isolate.  The biggest saving grace though is the peaks will be short and won’t happen in the country all at once.  Dads right that January will test some areas but by February things may be a ok.


OK, thanks for letting me know


----------



## crush

BTW Grace T, did you hear about Roger Stones wife and her miracle?  Is it true about his wife beating cancer?  I hear a rumor that very soon all the truth will come out and we have medicine that can beat the fuck out of cancer and destroy it once and for all.  I'm serious Grace T.  If we can beat cancer, we can beat these man made viruses that man has patents on and that are made in a lab using tissues from animals and babies that were not allowed to be born for various reasons.


----------



## crush

Boosters forever.
					

Meme by @nevschannel and @PepeMatter




					rumble.com


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> He’s mostly right:
> 1. It’s not true that no one has died in South Africa.  The uk has even had a couple omicron deaths. People die from the common cold all the time. It is true deaths are lower in all age groups, in both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, hospital stays are shorter, and icu cases are both shorter and lower
> 2. South Africa has a ton of natural immunity.  For that reason certain low vaxxed us places should be fine if they paid for it with delta
> 3. He’s right about the staffing problems but that’s mostly a policy issue about the response not the virus. Medical staff will be excluded if sick (and they all will be). In the uk we are seeing the problem isn’t the beds but the staff. Businesses and schools will be disrupted too because lots of people will be ill at once
> 4. The supply lines which have been recovering somewhat will teeter and maybe fall in some areas. Not much can be done if all your truck drivers are sick
> 5. In normal years everyone in such circumstances works through their colds. This year people will be forced to isolate.  The biggest saving grace though is the peaks will be short and won’t happen in the country all at once.  Dads right that January will test some areas but by February things may be a ok.


Also sounds like one of the most common symptoms of the Omi variant is to actually have no symptoms at all!


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Also sounds like one of the most common symptoms of the Omi variant is to actually have no symptoms at all!


Fear is the virus and the variants are how they measure their bull shit.  Fake test too.  I know some assholes that want me punished for not obeying their BS rules. They want to exclude folks like me from all of life's riches and rewards because of my lack of obedience to the Grand Master of this world.  Some of you on here discus me.  Sell outs.  You dont care about me or others.  I'm not going to wait to see how many boosters you will take in obedience.  I already see the writing on the wall.  I tried to wake some of you up, remember that.  I'm telling anyone who will still listen.  This is against the LAW and my God Given Rights, forcing me to take shit in veins.  I call upon God, The Constitution of the Unite States of America and the Nuremberg Code in my defense.  This is what I heard some asshat say, "I require you to obey me because I know what is best for you.  In the name of my mandate, roll up your arm now! You get your ass back here for your required boosters when I say so, you hear me?"


----------



## crush

Look everyone and listen to 45 share his 45 seconds about his time when he asked for help.  Think about that for one minute.  Close your eyes and think about the fact t asked for help.  I know must of you hated Mr. T and I get why.  I truly do.  God is real you guys.  You know why I know that?  Because even The Lion Mr. Trump turned to the real Boss in his time of need.  You see how that works?  He asked for help on our behalf because we were up against some sickos who had lot's of control switches.  Not no more.  Corona is over and now Omicron is here to save us.

https://rumble.com/vr2j1h-love-the-boss.html


----------



## crush

Breaking News:  It's been proven that the Fact Checkers at Metaverse are just folks with a political opinion and that the fact checkers were only looking left when they check for the facts that anyone with a different opinion about therapeutics and eating healthy were banned from these platforms. Crazy to think how many think that is still ok.  All because you hate the orange man.  Man, most of you are so wrong.  Back to the story.  So when they fact checked everything the sitting US President and The Commander in Chief of "We The People" Armed Forces was saying and texting before the 2020 election, they were just being political with their opinions and cut the mic off for those who are right.  Plus they fact check the mini memes of Mr. T.  So now were all at the cross roads.  Only God can help us.  We need help!!!  These psychopaths' have their backs really to the wall. This week is going to be insane. God, it;s time to show the world who the Boss is.  Were so ready.  Calling all the Angels.  It's showtime!!!  I love all of you guys.  Get ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Sort of.  Omicron will infect almost everyone, getting rid of Delta.   It will kill quite a few people along the way, mostly among the unvaccinated.  Hard for me to call that a celebration.
> 
> Dad4 guess:   Fewer ICU visits per case, but a ton more cases per day.   Case peak well above Delta.  Each area will have a hospitalization peak a little below delta, but all at the same time.  No five week gap to give the travel nurses time to get from Florida to Montana.  And enough breakthrough infections to cause significant staff absences.  So, staff shortages.
> 
> But perhaps quieter after that.  More like Happy Valentine’s Day than Merry Christmas.


I see no statistical or biological reason why delta will go away.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> I see no statistical or biological reason why delta will go away.


I am assuming that omicron confers some amount of protection against delta.   Given that delta seems to confer some protection against omicron, this seems likely.  The immune response to one is partially effective against the other.

It is the same mechanism that got rid of the pre-delta variants.  The new version runs around infecting people, leaving fewer people still vulnerable to the old version.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> NYT re-upping this one today, why not 4 ?
> 
> One of the easiest ways to upgrade your mask protection is to wear two at the same time, health experts say. Here are answers to common questions about double masking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Double Mask Correctly
> 
> 
> Two masks can increase your protection against the coronavirus. Just make sure you know the dos and don’ts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Do you get the feeling that it won't be long until they change the definition of "fully masked" to two masks?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you get the feeling that it won't be long until they change the definition of "fully masked" to two masks?


Their selling mask to me online and it's because of Omicron.  I can't wait to see wtf is getting a kickback from promoting the mask and the boosters.  So my dear old pal just let me know about his record year with his wife.  They will finish the year well over $750,000.  One does loans and one sells drugs for big pharma.


----------



## crush

Boom!!!









						BOOOOOOOM!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Way back in the day around May 13th, 2021


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> He’s mostly right:
> 1. It’s not true that no one has died in South Africa.  The uk has even had a couple omicron deaths. People die from the common cold all the time. It is true deaths are lower in all age groups, in both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, hospital stays are shorter, and icu cases are both shorter and lower
> 2. South Africa has a ton of natural immunity.  For that reason certain low vaxxed us places should be fine if they paid for it with delta
> 3. He’s right about the staffing problems but that’s mostly a policy issue about the response not the virus. Medical staff will be excluded if sick (and they all will be). In the uk we are seeing the problem isn’t the beds but the staff. Businesses and schools will be disrupted too because lots of people will be ill at once
> 4. The supply lines which have been recovering somewhat will teeter and maybe fall in some areas. Not much can be done if all your truck drivers are sick
> 5. In normal years everyone in such circumstances works through their colds. This year people will be forced to isolate.  The biggest saving grace though is the peaks will be short and won’t happen in the country all at once.  Dads right that January will test some areas but by February things may be a ok.


I was listening to CNN and they had an "expert" on that said that (paraphrasing), "You have to take the idea that Omicron symptoms are mild off the table because South Africa is completely different from the US."  He didn't explain why, nor did the interviewer challenge him on that assertion.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Way back in the day around May 13th, 2021
> 
> View attachment 12403
> 
> View attachment 12404


I’m not sure the Biden administration is too happy with that Fauci response , but they may be more pre-occupied with Manchin crushing their dreams this morning


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I was listening to CNN and they had an "expert" on that said that (paraphrasing), "You have to take the idea that Omicron symptoms are mild off the table because South Africa is completely different from the US."  He didn't explain why, nor did the interviewer challenge him on that assertion.


if we had a functioning media they would have asked then why does the sa data show its lower at all ages, lower in the vaxxed and unvaxxed, lower in all categories of severity. They would have asked about the prelim up data which is better at this point in the delta wave.  At a minimum the correct answer is while we have some indications there’s no proof of anything yet.  But we don’t have a functional media. We have the propaganda wings for the respective parties.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> I’m not sure the Biden administration is too happy with that Fauci response , but they may be more pre-occupied with Manchin crushing their dreams this morning


Well, JB is going to let us critical thinkers and those who say no to the jab have it this Tuesday.  It's going to be a sharp rebuke and one last try and getting folks to blame folks like me for keeping us from going back to normal.  It's all our fault for not obeying the rules and requirements that Dr. F and others want to put on us to help ruin the country and ruin my life and others like me who can;t make a living in these circumstances.  These Dick Taters are serious pricks.   Just wait for Tuesdays spanking Brav 520.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Well, JB is going to let us critical thinkers and those who say no to the jab have it this Tuesday.  It's going to be a sharp rebuke and one last try and getting folks to blame folks like me for keeping us from going back to normal.  It's all our fault for not obeying the rules and requirements that Dr. F and others want to put on us to help ruin the country and ruin my life and others like me who can;t make a living in these circumstances.  These Dick Taters are serious pricks.   Just wait for Tuesdays spanking Brav 520.


What is Biden going do or say that going change anything on Tuesday?



hard to continue to blame the unvaccinated whenNYC is in full panic mode , people waiting in line for hours for testing, looks like the pandemic of the vaccinated in NYC.

Maybe there is some plan around rapid test , make them cheaper and more available


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *if we had a functioning media* they would have asked then why does the sa data show its lower at all ages, lower in the vaxxed and unvaxxed, lower in all categories of severity. They would have asked about the prelim up data which is better at this point in the delta wave.  At a minimum the correct answer is while we have some indications there’s no proof of anything yet.  But we don’t have a functional media. We have the propaganda wings for the respective parties.


Dah Grace T.....lol!  I left Tel A Vision with the news long time ago.  Not only do we have problems everywhere, we dont have a functioning media and that is a big problem too.  One side get's to blow off their hate for one person and his followers for years and years.  Brainwashed brains is what we have today.  Total brainless and Godless people have become.  It's not an attack on anyone here.  I'm sad for so many who have no faith anymore. Their scared to die and scared now of the Omicron.  Dont be afraid, Yeshua is on the way   This media, that was functioning for one side, went after t because t declared war on human traffic.  It's called trafficking for reason.  JB also He this is the "Winter of Death."  Death for those who did NOT GET JABBED he says.  He told me to get ready to die or fill up the hospitals at best, whichever comes first he says.  Wow wow wow.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> What is Biden going do or say that going change anything on Tuesday?
> 
> 
> 
> hard to continue to blame the unvaccinated whenNYC is in full panic mode , people waiting in line for hours for testing, looks like the pandemic of the vaccinated in NYC.
> 
> Maybe there is some plan around rapid test , make them cheaper and more available


He's bringing the hammer because folks like me won't submit to his requirements to make a living in America.  NYC is gnarly, as is Austria.  These people have lost their minds and will have big Karma coming.  First in line will be last in line.  Don't cut in line and all will go well for you.  Cheat, lie and steal and you will get what's coming.  Blame me for all this mess is bull shit.  Flat out bull shit.  I am super duper pissed off at lazy ass lion who sits on his ass and does nothing.  Also, Frank the Fence sitter.  Barks out his opinions but stands only for whatever side wins.  Total Robert the Bruce.  Then we have Charlie the Chirper.  Oh man, this guy.  We need God quickly or the Military Brav.  Please please help us.


----------



## crush

Dr. Anthony Fauci *claimed* that while health officials expected variants of COVID-19, the omicron variant showed* "unprecedented"* mutations that even *caught experts off-guard.*

Fauci said the government plans to make a *significant investment in testing* capacity in order to get around this issue.

"What the government has been doing now, and you’re going to be seeing the result of that, is *making investments literally in billions of dollars *to get anywhere between* 200 million to 500 million tests available per month,* *which means there will be a lot of tests," *Fauci told ABC’s "This Week." "Many of them will be *free."*

"There are going to be *10,000 centers that are going to be giving out free testing,*" he added, speculating that the public will see those results *two to three weeks from now.  *

The omicron variant has driven new cases to alarming levels in the past two weeks, causing some universities and businesses to mandate boosters or adopt more severe restriction measures again in an echo that reminds people of the early phases of the pandemic.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> He's bringing the hammer because folks like me won't submit to his requirements to make a living in America.  NYC is gnarly, as is Austria.  These people have lost their minds and will have big Karma coming.  First in line will be last in line.  Don't cut in line and all will go well for you.  Cheat, lie and steal and you will get what's coming.  Blame me for all this mess is bull shit.  Flat out bull shit.  I am super duper pissed off at lazy ass lion who sits on his ass and does nothing.  Also, Frank the Fence sitter.  Barks out his opinions but stands only for whatever side wins.  Total Robert the Bruce.  Then we have Charlie the Chirper.  Oh man, this guy.  We need God quickly or the Military Brav.  Please please help us.


im watching NFL redzone , stadiums across the country packed full of people, apparently they haven’t got the memo that the world is ending

by the way should I start Burrow or wait until Tuesday for R . Wilson, what if Wilson test positive for the Cron?

this is a decent size money fantasy league , and I’m in the first round of playoffs today


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> im watching NFL redzone , stadiums across the country packed full of people, apparently they haven’t got the memo that the world is ending
> 
> by the way should I start Burrow or wait until Tuesday for R . Wilson, what if Wilson test positive for the Cron?
> 
> this is a decent size money fantasy league , and I’m in the first round of playoffs today


I no nothing about fantasy.  I only live for today @ zero.  Today is real and it's going to get nasty.  Normal Norm wants his old life back, regardless of how many boosters Norm needs to be able to be considered obedient to the rules that one side is making up as they go.  I used to play with cheaters in sports and would laugh at them when I caught them and then challenge them.  They would get all defensive and mad and quit or throw the card table and then tell everyone we tied.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> What is Biden going do or say that going change anything on Tuesday?
> 
> 
> 
> hard to continue to blame the unvaccinated whenNYC is in full panic mode , people waiting in line for hours for testing, looks like the pandemic of the vaccinated in NYC.
> 
> Maybe there is some plan around rapid test , make them cheaper and more available


People waiting in line is not my idea of panic.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> People waiting in line is not my idea of panic.


No panic, just a trip for us to watch.  Espola, you're under a spell and so many are under a spell.  Your blood got tainted and it messes up your in decisions from your brain.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> At one level, over the past 6 months, roughly 50-80 million anti-vax covidiots have kept Delta alive, killing off 200,000 of themselves.


That is not what kept delta alive. 

I know you like to believe that. Delta spread everywhere in the world. High vaxxed countries, low vaxxed countries, etc.

The vaxxed still catch and spread the virus. The effectiveness of the vaxxes have dropped off dramatically which is why they are asking and hoping that a booster or 2 will do the trick.

With the Omicrom the vaxxes are not good at all vs stopping the spread or catching the virus. That is why you see cases rising dramatically in the vaxxed population. 

The good?

The O so far seems to be a lot less severe.
Vaxxes seem to still help some people from getting seriously ill. 

But your belief that it is the unvaxxed in the US that keeps the virus around is simply wishcasting on your part.

Right now the O is infecting everyone vaxxed or not. States in the east with some of the highest population vax rates are seeing large surges in cases. This is across the population as a whole.

Now reality is starting to set in. Other countries are starting to say well it is endemic we will just have to live with this. Now the WH and Biden are starting to come around to this thinking. They are also starting to think about moving the focus away from case numbers and focusing on the important part...severity. 

From CNN.


*A shift toward focusing on severity instead of case numbers*
_Some of Biden's advisers are encouraging the administration to begin discussing publicly *how to live alongside a virus that shows no signs of disappearing*, a potentially stark shift in messaging for a White House that once touted "freedom from the virus."
Steering public attention away from the total number of infections and toward serious cases only -- as some Biden advisers have encouraged -- could prove a challenge after nearly two years of intense focus on the pandemic's every up and down. It is a part of a growing conundrum that Biden faces as the Covid-19 pandemic refuses to abate.
"We're getting to the point now where ... it's about severity," said Xavier Becerra, the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, in a meeting with reporters this week. "*It's not about cases. It's about severity."*_


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> People waiting in line is not my idea of panic.


Is it just that these people that keep making excuses for not helping the cause/getting vaxxed are just afraid of needles? They do come off like cry babies.


----------



## crush

Another friend of a friend of my wife friend was told to not come back to work after Xmas unless proof of at least one jab or one hell of an a excuse why you wont volunteer to take one for the team, besides getting fired and losing income so you can pay bills. I dedicate this song from Rodriquez, "Cause."   Please listen to the words.  So many have been fired over a true health and or religous reason why nothing enters our blood.  That is reasonable.






I love this song and Rodriguez humility about life not being fair and not one to seek revenge.  Like many have said, when you lose your ability to roam freely on the land God gave all of us to make a buck so you can pay bills and eat, it can hit home for some who didnt save for the two year emergency rainy fund of pandemics and various unpredictable variants of this and some of that.  This is hitting so many folks hard now.  Now we have people saying the Winter of Death is coming, especially loved ones who say no to jab or those parents who got jab but no now for their kids jab because it makes zero sense when you think about it.  Fool me once, shame on me.  Fool my child, shame on me again.  Fool us the third time, I am one stupid fool.  Insane times we all find ourselves in right now, today.  I pray for peace and please love your neighbor as you love thy self, regardless of jab or no jab.  I hope people relax and be calm before the storm.  This is huge you guys and no one can deny the facts before all of eyes and ears.  I smell it too, just like you.  I love you all and thank you all for putting up with me all these years.  No meds you guys ((NICE TRY FELLAS TRYING TO MAKE ME OUT TO SOME KIND OF COO COO AND FULL OF NONSENSE AND ONE BABBLER AFTER ANOTHER BABBLER. Bull poop is all I say.  No booze and just eating from the earth.  The earth has everything you need and God provides a great body to boot, if you take care of it.  No more quick fixes to fix bad habits that took years in the making.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I was listening to CNN and they had an "expert" on that said that (paraphrasing), "You have to take the idea that Omicron symptoms are mild off the table because South Africa is completely different from the US."  He didn't explain why, nor did the interviewer challenge him on that assertion.


I believe the rule of thumb experts use when explaining bad predictions or predictions that differ from what might be expected is that it is due to either a different variant or housing density.


----------



## crush

Oscar Cabrera a player in Northern Spain, collapsing due to heart failure!
					

Video taken from Michael Yeadon (Real). - The new "normal"?  Telegram: https://t.me/Yeadon_Michael




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

I found the dream I had about t and everyone happy with him.  Watch this.  I just found it online.  These things just "pop" up on my news feeds.  My computer knows me better then I know myself.  I told you guys would love Mr. T for a all he has done, even though so many of you have been big meanness about him.  









						Trump - The Hero's Journey. (EyeDropMedia)
					

The Hero’s Journey is a tried and tested movie story structure. This structure fits perfectly into President Donald Trump’s ongoing story. If you're unfamiliar with this story structure, a simple inte




					rumble.com


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is it just that these people that keep making excuses for not helping the cause/getting vaxxed are just afraid of needles? They do come off like cry babies.


Looks like a reasonable response to a demonstrated risk.

As opposed to "You can't make me!"

Take your pick.

The radio in my car is sick, so all I can get is local AM stations.  The other day, hunting for a signal, I dialed in a local host who was complaining that his relatives did not want him to come for the holidays because he has not been vaccinated.  After calling them paranoid crazies, he went off on a long rant about Money! Power! Fauci!

This period in our history is going to be fertile ground for future Ph.D. papers in psychology.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Looks like a reasonable response to a demonstrated risk.
> 
> As opposed to "You can't make me!"
> 
> Take your pick.
> 
> The radio in my car is sick, so all I can get is local AM stations.  The other day, hunting for a signal, I dialed in a local host who was complaining that his relatives did not want him to come for the holidays because he has not been vaccinated.  After calling them paranoid crazies, he went off on a long rant about Money! Power! Fauci!
> 
> This period in our history is going to be fertile ground for future Ph.D. papers in psychology.


My pick is to do whatever works for your family Espola and stop spreading hate and fear during this time of worship for many of us.  You guys had Oct 31st.  Let us enjoy Yeshua and all he has done to show us love.  Our family is all meeting for Christmas Eve.  Guatemala Tamales and lots of love & hugs and presents.  We had a meeting and decided that we will do what we want to do.  Nice try trying to divide families.  Terrible and horrible what you and The Husler believe in.


----------



## crush

*Omicron 'is going to take over' this winter, and Fauci says Americans should brace for a 'tough few weeks to months'*

"It's going to take over," Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, said of the Omicron variant on CNN's "State of the Union" Sunday, urging Americans to get vaccinated and get their booster shots. "And be prudent in everything else you do: When you travel in your indoor settings that are congregated, wear a mask." 

"We can't walk away from that Jake, we can't," he told CNN's Jake Tapper. "Because with Omicron, that we're dealing with, it is going to be a tough few weeks to months as we get deeper into the winter." 

"This Omicron variant is extraordinarily contagious. It's as contagious as measles, and that's about the most contagious virus that we've seen," CNN medical analyst Jonathan Reiner said Saturday, warning there was a* "tsunami"* coming for unvaccinated Americans.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Looks like a reasonable response to a demonstrated risk.
> 
> As opposed to "You can't make me!"
> 
> Take your pick.
> 
> The radio in my car is sick, so all I can get is local AM stations.  The other day, hunting for a signal, I dialed in a local host who was complaining that his relatives did not want him to come for the holidays because he has not been vaccinated.  After calling them paranoid crazies, he went off on a long rant about Money! Power! Fauci!
> 
> This period in our history is going to be fertile ground for future Ph.D. papers in psychology.


Some have no idea how self-centered and oblivious they come off as.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> That is not what kept delta alive.
> 
> I know you like to believe that. Delta spread everywhere in the world. High vaxxed countries, low vaxxed countries, etc.
> 
> The vaxxed still catch and spread the virus. The effectiveness of the vaxxes have dropped off dramatically which is why they are asking and hoping that a booster or 2 will do the trick.
> 
> With the Omicrom the vaxxes are not good at all vs stopping the spread or catching the virus. That is why you see cases rising dramatically in the vaxxed population.
> 
> The good?
> 
> The O so far seems to be a lot less severe.
> Vaxxes seem to still help some people from getting seriously ill.
> 
> But your belief that it is the unvaxxed in the US that keeps the virus around is simply wishcasting on your part.
> 
> Right now the O is infecting everyone vaxxed or not. States in the east with some of the highest population vax rates are seeing large surges in cases. This is across the population as a whole.
> 
> Now reality is starting to set in. Other countries are starting to say well it is endemic we will just have to live with this. Now the WH and Biden are starting to come around to this thinking. They are also starting to think about moving the focus away from case numbers and focusing on the important part...severity.
> 
> From CNN.
> 
> 
> *A shift toward focusing on severity instead of case numbers*
> _Some of Biden's advisers are encouraging the administration to begin discussing publicly *how to live alongside a virus that shows no signs of disappearing*, a potentially stark shift in messaging for a White House that once touted "freedom from the virus."
> Steering public attention away from the total number of infections and toward serious cases only -- as some Biden advisers have encouraged -- could prove a challenge after nearly two years of intense focus on the pandemic's every up and down. It is a part of a growing conundrum that Biden faces as the Covid-19 pandemic refuses to abate.
> "We're getting to the point now where ... it's about severity," said Xavier Becerra, the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, in a meeting with reporters this week. "*It's not about cases. It's about severity."*_


What could you do?  It was all baked in.  

Guess it was just bad luck that the bakery gave Arizona three times as many deaths as it gave Seattle, Portland, or the Bay Area.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Looks like a reasonable response to a demonstrated risk.
> 
> As opposed to "You can't make me!"
> 
> Take your pick.
> 
> The radio in my car is sick, so all I can get is local AM stations.  The other day, hunting for a signal, I dialed in a local host who was complaining that his relatives did not want him to come for the holidays because he has not been vaccinated.  After calling them paranoid crazies, he went off on a long rant about Money! Power! Fauci!
> 
> This period in our history is going to be fertile ground for future Ph.D. papers in psychology.


I think the only way some people are going be able get through this is hours of therapy 

primarily the journos at Wapo, NYT, and the Atlantic

one guy at the Atlantic penned a dear diary piece about how he cancelled his birthday party because of Omicron.


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> That is not what kept delta alive.
> 
> I know you like to believe that. Delta spread everywhere in the world. High vaxxed countries, low vaxxed countries, etc.
> 
> The vaxxed still catch and spread the virus. The effectiveness of the vaxxes have dropped off dramatically which is why they are asking and hoping that a booster or 2 will do the trick.
> 
> With the Omicrom the vaxxes are not good at all vs stopping the spread or catching the virus. That is why you see cases rising dramatically in the vaxxed population.
> 
> The good?
> 
> The O so far seems to be a lot less severe.
> Vaxxes seem to still help some people from getting seriously ill.
> 
> But your belief that it is the unvaxxed in the US that keeps the virus around is simply wishcasting on your part.
> 
> Right now the O is infecting everyone vaxxed or not. States in the east with some of the highest population vax rates are seeing large surges in cases. This is across the population as a whole.
> 
> Now reality is starting to set in. Other countries are starting to say well it is endemic we will just have to live with this. Now the WH and Biden are starting to come around to this thinking. They are also starting to think about moving the focus away from case numbers and focusing on the important part...severity.
> 
> From CNN.
> 
> 
> *A shift toward focusing on severity instead of case numbers*
> _Some of Biden's advisers are encouraging the administration to begin discussing publicly *how to live alongside a virus that shows no signs of disappearing*, a potentially stark shift in messaging for a White House that once touted "freedom from the virus."
> Steering public attention away from the total number of infections and toward serious cases only -- as some Biden advisers have encouraged -- could prove a challenge after nearly two years of intense focus on the pandemic's every up and down. It is a part of a growing conundrum that Biden faces as the Covid-19 pandemic refuses to abate.
> "We're getting to the point now where ... it's about severity," said Xavier Becerra, the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, in a meeting with reporters this week. "*It's not about cases. It's about severity."*_


they will stop counting cases until that next Florida surge #DeathSantis


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> The vaxxed still catch and spread the virus. The* effectiveness of the vaxxes have dropped off* dramatically which is *why they are asking and hoping that a booster or 2 will do the trick.*


Or 3 or 4 boosters for that matter.  Lot's of tricks going on.  I hope I can be free in this wonderful land we call home of the brave and land of the free.  I want freedom.  I can taste freedom.  Were so close to basic human freedom for all.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> I think the only way some people are going be able get through this is hours of therapy
> 
> primarily the journos at Wapo, NYT, and the Atlantic
> 
> one guy at the Atlantic penned a dear diary piece about how he cancelled his birthday party because of Omicron.


Didn't he read the NYTimes? Just wear two masks. I heard that's better than a vaccine (or three).


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> What could you do?  It was all baked in.
> 
> Guess it was just bad luck that the bakery gave Arizona three times as many deaths as it gave Seattle, Portland, or the Bay Area.


Any guess why Utah has done as well if not better than those areas doing the opposite of those area?

You can't.

The Delta wasn't going to vanish if every place in the US had done SF.

The omicron would still be spreading as well.

The virus isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Desert Hound

And vaxxed or not it doesn't make a difference related to getting it spreading the O.  Most of the vaxx options available are not effective vs getting or spreading. This means ..again...the virus isn't going anywhere.



			Most of the World’s Vaccines Likely Won’t Prevent Infection From Omicron


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> What could you do?  It was all baked in.
> 
> Guess it was just bad luck that the bakery gave Arizona three times as many deaths as it gave Seattle, Portland, or the Bay Area.


Brilliant.  Just ignore the anarchy in the streets because you have a slightly better chance of not dying from Covid.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Brilliant.  Just ignore the anarchy in the streets because you have a slightly better chance of not dying from Covid.


Anarchy? You mean those screaming at retail store employees, school board members and airline employees because they don’t want to comply with the rules?


----------



## Brav520

Here comes the swerve, marching orders from Biden admin( guess it’s better late than never! ) .

Brian Stelter-CNN

_“We collectively took action to protect the elderly from Covid. Now, shouldn't we be doing more to protect children by letting them live normal lives? Or, to pose the Q another way, are we really going to close schools again and let kids suffer even more?”_


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Anarchy? You mean those screaming at retail store employees, school board members and airline employees because they don’t want to comply with the rules?


I was thinking of the actual criminal acts occurring that are being allowed by those mayors and their administrations.

If you've ever been in the customer service business, you'd realize that customers yelling at employees is not uncommon.  Some people just lack common civility.  Kind of like people who think its funny to call a woman the "c" word.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Anarchy? You mean those screaming at retail store employees, school board members and airline employees because they don’t want to comply with the rules?


you are hilarious.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Brilliant.  Just ignore the anarchy in the streets because you have a slightly better chance of not dying from Covid.


We could just be honest about both.  Left coast cities are doing a poor job of maintaining public order.  Red states are doing a poor job of containing covid.  Both mistakes are killing people.

There is no reason to be a partisan fanboy for either group.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We could just be honest about both.  Left coast cities are doing a poor job of maintaining public order.  Red states are doing a poor job of containing covid.  Both mistakes are killing people.
> 
> There is no reason to be a partisan fanboy for either group.


Again you have to cherry pick states to make the case that red states are worse than blue states in terms of Covid.  There is zero correlation let alone causation.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Again you have to cherry pick states to make the case that red states are worse than blue states in terms of Covid.  There is zero correlation let alone causation.


It’s has nothing to do with party.  Masks and vaccines are useful.  Inslee has done a good job promoting both.  His party is irrelevant.  

It’s a shame that so many people have decided that masks and vaccines are at all associated to a political party.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It’s has nothing to do with party.  Masks and vaccines are useful.  Inslee has done a good job promoting both.  His party is irrelevant.
> 
> It’s a shame that so many people have decided that masks and vaccines are at all associated to a political party.


You were the one that made Covid about party, not me.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You were the one that made Covid about party, not me.


You mean I pointed out that Arizona has done considerably worse than Seattle, Portland, and NorCal.

I should have included Salt Lake.  That would have made it more clear that my point wasn't red/blue. 

But, however you look at it, the people and policies of Phoenix, Vegas, Billings, and Boise have done a lot worse than the people and policies of Salt lake and the NW coast.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You mean I pointed out that Arizona has done considerably worse than Seattle, Portland, and NorCal.
> 
> I should have included Salt Lake.  That would have made it more clear that my point wasn't red/blue.
> 
> But, however you look at it, the people and policies of Phoenix, Vegas, Billings, and Boise have done a lot worse than the people and policies of Salt lake and the NW coast.


Errr…don’t know if things changed after we left but the policies in Los Angeles were far stricter than salt lake at least summer/early fall 2020….night and day.

schools open, sports open, pool open, no outdoor masks, dining and bars open, in person worship.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Errr…don’t know if things changed after we left but the policies in Los Angeles were far stricter than salt lake at least summer/early fall 2020….night and day.
> 
> schools open, sports open, pool open, no outdoor masks, dining and bars open, in person worship.


Are you comparing Salt Lake and LA taking all the differences into consideration?


----------



## crush

*Swedish company showcases microchip that can download COVID-19 passport status.  The chip is **implanted** under the skin, like your arm or forehead.  It will make life easier for all of you WHO believe in boosters for the rest of your life.  *

*

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471797322531049472*


----------



## crush

Why are so many Dem's coming down with Covid?  Some of these so called leaders have had two jabs + two boosters + two mask over pie hole to cover their facial body language that is full of lies and cheating and they still catch this bullshit.  My God people, wtf up.  Seriously, reading what some of you are posting is alarming.  Talk about being dumb sheep.  It's time you guys see the truth.  "I'm on the fense" is no excuse.  "I'm agnostic" is no excuse.  Get off the fence and make a decision.  The stock market is going to explode and that stupid bullshit coin backed by pure evil will also crash. This is going to biblical.


----------



## crush

The Great Separation is coming.  Most of you have already made your decision and some are still on the fence about creation and why you were born.  Let me be frank with you on the fence still.  God needed someone to love and he picked you to love and be with.  It's not rocket science.  You were NOT asked to be born and it's your choice if you want to love God the father and God the Mother of earth.


----------



## crush

The new normal you guys.  You need to get four shots to keep you from serious injury now.  These are the biggest liars ever and so many of you follow the liars.  Gee, I wonder why?  At least "GG" is honest about his atheism.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you comparing Salt Lake and LA taking all the differences into consideration?


Sure… but it wasn’t policy.


----------



## Grace T.

Omicron outbreak on a Royal Carribean cruise out of Miami. So far 44/6000 positive, virtually all still asymptomatic. All passengers and crew 12 and over required to be fully vaxxed. Negative test required from everyone prior to boarding.


----------



## Brav520

Memory Hole: virtually every major health official in the United States has claimed that COVID shots stop the virus
					

And every single 'public health' pandemic policy is anchored to the idea that COVID shots stop the virus.




					dossier.substack.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr…don’t know if things changed after we left but the policies in Los Angeles were far stricter than salt lake at least summer/early fall 2020….night and day.
> 
> schools open, sports open, pool open, no outdoor masks, dining and bars open, in person worship.


You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”

You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> People waiting in line is not my idea of panic.











						Is That Sniffle a Cold? Or Is It Covid?
					

In New York City, the slightest runny nose has people canceling holiday gatherings and lining up for hours outside coronavirus testing centers.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Memory Hole: virtually every major health official in the United States has claimed that COVID shots stop the virus
> 
> 
> And every single 'public health' pandemic policy is anchored to the idea that COVID shots stop the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dossier.substack.com


These people are all bought with a job and to keep their job, they have to get the jabs and the boosters that come with the job.  Everyone is a slave and bought one way or another.  After one is bought, they then become eligible to be bribed with lot's cash bonuses for the rest of their working days. After getting ahead of everyone else and buying whatever the hell you want, you are now ready to be blackmailed.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”
> 
> You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


Sure but that’s not reproducible (at least not on the time frames we are talking about). Therefore it’s not about policy. Policy is the levers you can actually push.

you fundamentally always fail to see the distinction between morality and policy. Just like be more Asian is not a policy.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”
> 
> You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


You simply wish the virus would go away and somehow npis and masks will do the trick. They wont.

That is why the virus is seen all around the globle. That is why delta spread everywhere. That is why omicron is everywhere.

Your preferred policies wont stop or eliminate the virus.

Your policies are known to do the following though.

- harm kids by restricting educational opportunities
- harm biz by putting in restrictions that at the end of the day will not stop the spread of the virus
- harm working people by the restrictions put on place on the biz where they work
- disrupt the supply chain around the world
- see reduced spending power due to inflation caused by government spending related to failed lockdowns, etc.

Utah, AZ and the other states you bitch about had their kids in CLASS for the year while in CA and others kids were stuck in substandard remote learning.

The omicron should be YOUR wakeup call to realizing one just has to live with this. Variants will arise and spread like wildfire. Billions in the world are not vaxxed and will not be any time soon. Further as we are seeing vaxxes lose effectiveness vs newer variants. Which is why you say countless cases of "breakthrough" cases in the vaxxed with delta. With the O, being vaxxed doesn't seem to confer much protection vs the virus at all. Daily we are seeing groups fully vaxxed catching it. That must be very disturbing to you. 

Are you double masking your N95s at this time?


----------



## crush

*"Winter of Death 2021:  Unvaccinated Only Will Die"*​
Breaking News: Joey "Bribes" Biden picked 12.21.2021 to tell us on the Tel A Vision that the "Winter of Death" is here.  His Grand Master picked the first day of Winter to give me the harsh reality of my impending hospital stay and then my certain death.  Poor me and my family of four who will all die this Winter.  We will all say our goodbyes at our families Christmas Eve celebration of the birth of Yeshua, our hero and Savior.  Those in our family who got jabbed and obeyed the Grand Master will inherit all of our wealth.  I will tell them all how much we will miss them and they can have all of worldly possessions.  We going to The New Earth.  You guys WHO got jabbed, you can have all what's here.  it's all yours.  The good, bad and ugly.  Enjoy life with GG, Espola and The Husler.  See ya!!!


Dead Anti-Vax person


----------



## crush

A shout out to all you who have stayed true.  Not easy at all!!!


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> You simply wish the virus would go away and somehow npis and masks will do the trick. They wont.
> 
> That is why the virus is seen all around the globle. That is why delta spread everywhere. That is why omicron is everywhere.
> 
> Your preferred policies wont stop or eliminate the virus.
> 
> Your policies are known to do the following though.
> 
> - harm kids by restricting educational opportunities
> - harm biz by putting in restrictions that at the end of the day will not stop the spread of the virus
> - harm working people by the restrictions put on place on the biz where they work
> - disrupt the supply chain around the world
> - see reduced spending power due to inflation caused by government spending related to failed lockdowns, etc.
> 
> Utah, AZ and the other states you bitch about had their kids in CLASS for the year while in CA and others kids were stuck in substandard remote learning.
> 
> The omicron should be YOUR wakeup call to realizing one just has to live with this. Variants will arise and spread like wildfire. Billions in the world are not vaxxed and will not be any time soon. Further as we are seeing vaxxes lose effectiveness vs newer variants. Which is why you say countless cases of "breakthrough" cases in the vaxxed with delta. With the O, being vaxxed doesn't seem to confer much protection vs the virus at all. Daily we are seeing groups fully vaxxed catching it. That must be very disturbing to you.
> 
> Are you double masking your N95s at this time?


The NFL is 94% vaccinated yet its spreading like wildfire from player to player.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> The NFL is 94% vaccinated yet its spreading like wildfire from player to player.


Omicron is going take the other BS viruses and destroy them in one big sweep.  Trust me dude, I know what I'm talking about.  Watch the financial dam break next bro.  When that falls into the ocean, then you know something is happening bigly.   Oh the look on your face when all this happens will be priceless


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The NFL is 94% vaccinated yet its spreading like wildfire from player to player.


Exactly.

Was watching a vid today from a NYer talking about the lunacy of what is going on. A guy generally pro vax, mask, etc.

He was talking about the Broadway show cancellations.

All the staff at the theater and the actors are fully vaxxed.
Everyone that attends has to be fully vaxxed and they actually check status at the doors.
Everyone watching must wear masks.

And yet they are cancelling shows because some staff tested positive.

He makes the point that if they are cancelling when everyone is vaxxed, etc, there is no offramp to this. We can never get back to normal if this is the response.

He points out rightly there is NOTHING else you can do at that point. You have followed everything.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It’s has nothing to do with party.  Masks and vaccines are useful.  Inslee has done a good job promoting both.  His party is irrelevant.
> 
> It’s a shame that so many people have decided that masks and vaccines are at all associated to a political party.


That's a failure of leadership. When a party and its associated media mouthpieces "lose" a significant portion of the population, this is what happens.


----------



## crush

Do you smart educated people truly believe what comes out of this guys mouth is honest, open and transparent?  He is now being called the "Angel of death" by many.  He makes zero sense and he double talk lies in two sentences back to back.  I read words and body language you guys.  Hey Frank the Fence Sitter, do you see the truth yet?  Pro soccer players who got the jabs and boosters are having heart attacks on the pitch in record nu,ber.  Listen now:  No one on the pitch who is not vaccinated is having heart attacks on the pitch.  Now read the quotes from your commander and chief and watch the video of this mom who died from clots in her blood after the J & J jab.  Insane!!!

"I want to send a* direct message to the American people*: *Due to the steps we've ((I) taken*,* omicron has not yet spread* as fast as it would have otherwise done," *Biden said.  *

"*But it's here now*,* and* *it's spreading*, and *it's going to increase *... We are looking at a *winter of severe illness and death for the unvaccinated* – *for themselves, their families and the hospitals they'll soon overwhelm," Biden added*. "But there's *good news: If you're vaccinated, and you have your booster shot, you're protected from severe illness and death."

Poor Ann died from a blood clot!





*


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> You mean I pointed out that Arizona has done considerably worse than Seattle, Portland, and NorCal.
> 
> I should have included Salt Lake.  That would have made it more clear that my point wasn't red/blue.
> 
> But, however you look at it, the people and policies of Phoenix, Vegas, Billings, and Boise have done a lot worse than the people and policies of Salt lake and the NW coast.


Ok, I’ll bite….how many non tested, non vax’d immigrants are pouring into Seattle, Portland or NorCal versus SoCal and/or Arizona?

Do you deny that ther could likely be some correlation there?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Is That Sniffle a Cold? Or Is It Covid?
> 
> 
> In New York City, the slightest runny nose has people canceling holiday gatherings and lining up for hours outside coronavirus testing centers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


How long until the psych ward is overflowing? I saw the Peanut's Christmas Special last night. Lucy needs to open up her stand. There's a lot of pantophobia going around and partying politicians are more than willing to take advantage of that fear. So, a winter of "severe illness and death" - man, who thinks these things up for the cardboard cutout? There's such a complete disconnect between the party in power and a significant portion of the population. It's shocking how out of touch they are.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”
> 
> You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


This and all the other reasons sound like great reasons to leave mandates to the localities. One size does not fit all cultures. Attempting to impose these restrictions from afar will only continue to drive the divide in the country as they have during the pandemic.


----------



## crush

*US official: There will be "stark difference" between vaccinated and unvaccinated people's Omicron experience, say's the pro below.  I have to put my trust in Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci and the medicine they created to keep me safe.  I also have to listen and trust the two guys below. *



“In the *coming weeks,* Tony, we* are going to see a spike in cases*. And that’s because* Omicron is incredibly transmissible,* and you know, we have to *be prepared *for that,” *Murthy said*. “But there will be a *stark difference* between the experience of those who are *vaccinated and boosted versus those who are unvaccinated.”*  ((Yes Doc, we see the stark differences in those who obey you and the others and those who refuse.  One keeps their job and the other one is fired and now face death))

"For people who have* maximum protection from vaccines and boosters",* *Murthy said* *that they* *either won’t get an infection*,((but)) or if they do, it will *most likely be mild."  *

*Definition of most likely*

*: *more likely than not *: *probably.  It will _most likely_ rain tomorrow but it might not.  You most likely won't die from a blood clot if you take the jab. 

More from Doc Murthy, *“If you are unvaccinated, I’m worried about you*. ((I'm worried about you too)).  *I’m worried* that your risk of being *hospitalized*, or *God forbid*, losing your life to this virus, is quite significant,” Murthy said. “It *still remains the case* ((But that could change but most likely won't?)) that getting vaccinated and boosted is the best way to protect yourself, even against Omicron.”


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> How long until the psych ward is overflowing?  So, a winter of "severe illness and death" - man, *who thinks these things up for the cardboard cutout?*  It's shocking how out of touch they are.


The devil has a meeting every day with his top brace to go over tag lines, symbols' and numbers and codes for those in the know. I kid you not.  Don't be scared and don't be shocked.


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Ok, I’ll bite….how many non tested, non vax’d immigrants are pouring into Seattle, Portland or NorCal versus SoCal and/or Arizona?
> 
> Do you deny that ther could likely be some correlation there?


Welcome back Kicker and I'm glad you took a bite.  I'm dying to hear about this new 2.0 version    The immigrants are slaves to the assholes. Innocent folks bro.  You will see soon why they get in free and no jabs.  Their not free though.  Their human slaves.  It's sad dude.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Was watching a vid today from a NYer talking about the lunacy of what is going on. A guy generally pro vax, mask, etc.
> 
> He was talking about the Broadway show cancellations.
> 
> All the staff at the theater and the actors are fully vaxxed.
> Everyone that attends has to be fully vaxxed and they actually check status at the doors.
> Everyone watching must wear masks.
> 
> And yet they are cancelling shows because some staff tested positive.
> 
> He makes the point that if they are cancelling when everyone is vaxxed, etc, there is no offramp to this. We can never get back to normal if this is the response.
> 
> He points out rightly there is NOTHING else you can do at that point. You have followed everything.


At this point it's abundantly clear that we can't vaccinate our way out of the pandemic.  The clinical trials gave us some hope we could, but reality tells a much different story.  Get vaxxed to protect yourself if you're comfortable doing so. (I have a sister-in-law that has extremely painful recurring shingles, her doctor said she need to avoid the vaccination.)

Maybe through natural immunity we can reach herd immunity, but its not going to happen through vaccination.  Omicron could possibly be a good thing if mild...but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> At this point it's abundantly clear that we can't vaccinate our way out of the pandemic.  The clinical trials gave us some hope we could, but reality tells a much different story.  Get vaxxed to protect yourself if you're comfortable doing so. (I have a sister-in-law that has extremely painful recurring shingles, her doctor said she need to avoid the vaccination.)
> 
> Maybe through natural immunity we can reach herd immunity, but its not going to happen through vaccination.  Omicron could possibly be a good thing if mild...but I'm not holding my breath.


Thanks for the Public Service Announcement....lol.  Do you own your own Pharmacy?  I am 100% not comfortable and neither should you be.  I see your ego big time dude.  The Doc for sister in law just saved her life. Omicron IS a good thing because good was behind it.  You will soon learn what Warp Speed really is and how fucking powerful Space Force is and never again will a group of dumb fucks try to rob us all blind, right out in the open.  I love you dude.  Come on man, you can do it.  Open your eyes to the greatness of God brother.  God is 100% a know it all and he knows everything about you and me and is a lot more involved then were taught to believe by these bastards.  They hide all the truth from us.  We are good souls and want what is best for all of mankind.  We can do it and we will do it!!!  Merry Christmas to all and also a super Happy New Years to boot.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Frances thinks he can just leave........lol!!!



Old Pals


----------



## crush

"It takes you, to get a jab"  Frances singing away in 2018


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”
> 
> You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


Bingo! . . . and population density, work environments, outdoor culture, resources . . .


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Ok, I’ll bite….how many non tested, non vax’d immigrants are pouring into Seattle, Portland or NorCal versus SoCal and/or Arizona?
> 
> Do you deny that ther could likely be some correlation there?


Where do you get your information from?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Where do you get your information from?


----------



## crush

*Israel to ban travel to US, Canada over omicron variant*
Israeli ministers have agreed to ban travel to the United States, Canada and eight other countries amid the rapid, global *spread of the omicron variant*


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> That's a failure of leadership. When a party and its associated media mouthpieces "lose" a significant portion of the population, this is what happens.


A failure of leadership is not an excuse for bad personal behavior.

If I gain 40 pounds and get diabetes, it is my fault for drinking the beer and eating the prime rib.  It is not my doctor's fault for failing to say "please" just right.

Same for covid.  If people in some region refused vaccines, went to a ton of indoor gatherings, and had a lot of covid deaths, that's on them.  You don't get to blame bad leadership every time you choose to be stupid.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> A failure of leadership is not an excuse for bad personal behavior.
> 
> If I gain 40 pounds and get diabetes, it is my fault for drinking the beer and eating the prime rib.  It is not my doctor's fault for failing to say "please" just right.
> 
> Same for covid.  If people in some region refused vaccines, went to a ton of indoor gatherings, and had a lot of covid deaths, that's on them.  You don't get to blame bad leadership every time you choose to be stupid.


You  are right, it's on them.  Why do you worry so much about them?  

Not vaccinated, catch it, maybe die, maybe not, depends on some stuff.  If they die it's on them.  Life is full of choices. 

Vaccinated, catch it, maybe die, maybe not, depends on some stuff.  Better chance of not dying but still could die.

Vaccinated or not, you will still transmit and receive virus.  Unfortunately the government is stuck in circa 2020 - Masks, social distancing, stay home and get more sick, no early treatment, shitty testing.  You can't make it up.  Your tax dollars at work.

But, to another point, it's obvious that government mouth pieces have influence.  Messaging is important.  Messaging has been terrible, from the beginning.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> A failure of leadership is not an excuse for bad personal behavior.


I’ll remember this the next time a Coach mouths off at a referee.  It’s still the players fault when they behave poorly. Got it.  *sigh*


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> A failure of leadership is not an excuse for bad personal behavior.
> 
> If I gain 40 pounds and get diabetes, it is my fault for drinking the beer and eating the prime rib.  It is not my doctor's fault for failing to say "please" just right.
> 
> Same for covid.  If people in some region refused vaccines, went to a ton of indoor gatherings, and had a lot of covid deaths, that's on them.  You don't get to blame bad leadership every time you choose to be stupid.


No, but closing schools, putting an unnecessary burden on children, disrupting small business etc is a failure of leadership.


----------



## crush

Money Manager is now giving Medical Advice......

Here come's Mr. Money himself.  Basically, their ALL parrots singing the same BS song.  How sad the mighty have fallen.  They also move the goal post whenever they miss.  The new rules in their game of requirements & mandates is below:

"Many will become sick and many *have passed away*.  I am on today to show people *you can come back quickly if vaccinated*.  I fear if i hadn't been *3x vaccinated* i would be far more sick."  Jim

You need 3x jab + boosters in order not to be far more sick.  You will get sick though and just count on that promise.  His fear could be wrong too and you might fall on your face in a major soccer match of cardiac arrest.  It's the new reason to take jabs for the rest of your life, so you don't get far more sicker.  Ok Jimbo!!!


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Money Manager is now giving Medical Advice......
> 
> Here come's Mr. Money himself.  Basically, their ALL parrots singing the same BS song.  How sad the mighty have fallen.  They also move the goal post whenever they miss.  The new rules in their game of requirements & mandates is below:
> 
> "Many will become sick and many *have passed away*.  I am on today to show people *you can come back quickly if vaccinated*.  I fear if i hadn't been *3x vaccinated* i would be far more sick."  Jim
> 
> You need 3x jab + boosters in order not to be far more sick.  You will get sick though and just count on that promise.  His fear could be wrong too and you might fall on your face in a major soccer match of cardiac arrest.  It's the new reason to take jabs for the rest of your life, so you don't get far more sicker.  Ok Jimbo!!!
> 
> View attachment 12421


 “Bear Stearns is fine!” Mad Money host *Jim Cramer* bellowed in March 2008 on his CNBC show — just a week before the bank collapsed.


----------



## crush

My wife say's SM is going nuts with mama bears and critical thinkers.  This is from Jennifer about Bidens big rebuke on us anti vaxxers. 

*"I just LOL at him. We stopped vaccinating entirely 8 years ago when we realized my stepson is vaccine injured from getting NINE injections at one "baby well visit" when he was 2.5 months old. They nearly killed him. He was hospitalized with "failure to thrive" for a week. I'm an adamant antivaxxer and there is literally NOTHING anyone can do to convince me we need vaccines for anything at all ever. Brandon can go Fuck himself."*

I will say this.  You fence sitters will have a choice soon.  The choice is stay and play with GG, Espola and Husler Dad and all the entertainment your heart can desire or you stand with, We The People" and protect everyone's rights.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You don't get to blame bad leadership every time you choose to be stupid.


You do when the policies don't have the desired effect. Again, being a leader in the USA doesn't mean people have to do anything you ask - that's the People's Republic of China. Your thought process and policy would fit in well there. In order to lead here, you need to understand the constituents and lead accordingly.

Again, I just have to laugh when I hear normal, constructive, human interaction describes as "bad behavior". The first time I assumed you meant risky behavior but you do believe it's "bad" behavior. It's telling.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> “Bear Stearns is fine!” Mad Money host *Jim Cramer* bellowed in March 2008 on his CNBC show — just a week before the bank collapsed.


That storm in 2008 will be nothing like what is coming soon.  Oh boy, do I remember those days.  I had old pal who was making $30,000 a month doing loans and was full of himself.  Beautiful trophy wife to boot.  However, that all changed when Lehman and his Bros went OB and then Countrywide went OB.  It was like one day he was the man and then the next day he was selling cars at a Ford Dealership in Vegas ((after his divorce)). On top of that, he found out his wife only married him because of the things he had at the time ((killer job, cars, money, beach house ((rented but super nice)), good looks, the charm.  However, she only married him truly for those things and not what was on the inside of his heart.  When those material things went bye bye one at a time, her heart fell out of love one at a time.  It was a slow and painful divorce.  Kids involved   Poor Larry. Anyway, dude learned his lesson and will never marry again.  I thank my lucky stars my wife married me for my heart for God and not my money because I never had much of it nor do I care for it, although it controls me still. I hate money


----------



## espola

__





						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> You do when the policies don't have the desired effect. Again, being a leader in the USA doesn't mean people have to do anything you ask - that's the People's Republic of China. Your thought process and policy would fit in well there. In order to lead here, you need to understand the constituents and lead accordingly.
> 
> Again, I just have to laugh when I hear normal, constructive, human interaction describes as "bad behavior". The first time I assumed you meant risky behavior but you do believe it's "bad" behavior. It's telling.


Driving 120 mph on a race track is risky behavior.  Driving 120 mph on the freeway is bad behavior.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Same for covid. If people in some region refused vaccines, went to a ton of indoor gatherings, and had a lot of covid deaths, that's on them. You don't get to blame bad leadership every time you choose to be stupid.


Either way it is over. 

Get vaxxed. 

The world is moving on. This is endemic. 

What good is the vax now with omicrom in terms of stopping getting or transmitting? Very little.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> You do when the policies don't have the desired effect. Again, being a leader in the USA doesn't mean people have to do anything you ask - that's the People's Republic of China. Your thought process and policy would fit in well there. In order to lead here, you need to understand the constituents and lead accordingly.
> 
> Again, I just have to laugh when I hear normal, constructive, human interaction describes as "bad behavior". The first time I assumed you meant risky behavior but you do believe it's "bad" behavior. It's telling.


PRC allegation already?   Guess we’re done thinking for today.

Are you sure you don’t want to go straight to yelling ”YOU’RE JUST LIKE HITLER!!!” and be done with it?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12422


That's it, you found the correct messaging....posted on facebook by a CNN employee.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Either way it is over.
> 
> Get vaxxed.
> 
> The world is moving on. This is endemic.
> 
> What good is the vax now with omicrom in terms of stopping getting or transmitting? Very little.


President Joe is going to give us all free thinkers a big ass whooping tomorrow evening from what I'm being told.  He picked the first day of Winter for a reason.  The Winter Death Surge for those who chose not to obey the Grand Master.  I so scared, Papi mad.  I will still listen to see what Papi has to say regarding his requirements and mandates.  Word on the street is it will be stern and a huge warning to obey or else.  No more free lotto tickets or cheese burgers. Now they mean business.  We knew they they meant business after t won and when they stole the election and censored a sitting US President.  I hear its going to be very hard to believe what he says but it is what he and others truly believe about folks like me, even way before the pandemic and way before HRC lost to t.  These same control freaks wanted me dead before I came out of my amazing biological mothers womb and right into my foster care mama's arms.  Crush was saved by grace.  I was the "Golden Lamb" to the slaughter but i escaped with the help of woman and one guy's conscious.  Who knows what plans these evil monsters had for me before I was saved.  I'm alive and with voice and ready to lend a hand to humanity.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> That's it, you found the correct messaging....posted on facebook by a CNN employee.


The numbers are from CDC.  Or did he just make them up?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Driving 120 mph on a race track is risky behavior.  *Driving 120 mph on the freeway is bad behavior.*


Unless you live in Germany, then it's common behavior.  Vaccinating healthy 5 year olds is risky and bad behavior


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> PRC allegation already?   Guess we’re done thinking for today.
> 
> Are you sure you don’t want to go straight to yelling ”YOU’RE JUST LIKE HITLER!!!” and be done with it?


Ha! It's very simple. If they don't follow you, you aren't leading. If you force someone to do something, you aren't leading, you are dictating. I thought you did nuance?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The numbers are from CDC.  Or did he just make them up?


I dunno, the CDC is kinda dodgy these days with their data.  Can't seem to make up their mind on what to release, what to hide, what to do additional research on.  One day this, one day that.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> I dunno, the CDC is kinda dodgy these days with their data.  Can't seem to make up their mind on what to release, what to hide, what to do additional research on.  One day this, one day that.


As long as Espola can find what he's looking for, the better for him and his crew and I'm happy with that.  I see real videos of stud soccer players falling on face after cardiac arrest.  You know they could have taken us on way back in 2017.  Almost 5 years ago that t was sworn into the Oval Office and declared war on the sickos and those who traffic humans for a living.  No one to trust these days.  Trump played softball.  Epstein and Flynn played hardball and that game is played in the sewer swamp that makes Shashank feel like kids play.  To play blackmail, you must blackmail as well.  [keystone].  This system has run it's course and the only way out alive is the real Boss man coming to sort all this out.  Trillions at stake and who controls those trillions is what is the hold up at this time.  I dont care about any money.  I just want to be left alone, with my wife and my dogs Icey Bear and Wallace.  We would also like to help those in need to give back.  I promise to stay away from anyone who is vaxxed.  I will go away and peace.  I see the writing on the wall.  Papi Joe is going to really let me and the family have it.  I'm not welcome anymore because I chose wrong and you others obeyed the Grand Master.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> I dunno, the CDC is kinda dodgy these days with their data.  Can't seem to make up their mind on what to release, what to hide, what to do additional research on.  One day this, one day that.


In the end it makes little difference. 

Unless a covid variation comes out that is very deadly, people are moving on. 

We are done with masks, distancing, shutting stuff down, etc.

It simply doesn't work. 

It is simple. If you want the vax have at it. If others don't, it isn't on you. 

It is why despite a NY mandate on masks, etc the gov said she will not enforce it. 
It is why CO said, ok we are done. 
It is why the Biden admin is now starting to talk about switching the messaging to now we have to live with the virus.
You will see more government entities take this position. 

People will follow along for a short period of time various restrictions. 

2 yrs into this they will not. Especially because the vast VAST majority of the population has little to no risk.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Driving 120 mph on a race track is risky behavior.  Driving 120 mph on the freeway is bad behavior.


This is stupid example and way off for any type of reason.  What degree do you have again?  Listen up "Chump the Trump Hater."  It's like driving 70 MPH when it says 65 MPH and looking to your right and to your left and seeing 75 year old scared little men driving down the 8 frwy with two mask on.  I just laugh at you dude and you flip me off.  It's all good.  Relax and stay indoors and stop being afraid.  BTW, did you and Jane meet up over in North Vietnam back in the war?  Asking for a lurker on here who doesnt have the guts take a bite with you.  At least Kicker is back to help out.  I'm appalled at you Espola.  Really have shown your true colors.  Is this what old age is like?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Unless you live in Germany, then it's common behavior.  Vaccinating healthy 5 year olds is risky and bad behavior


Maybe if you lived in Germany.  Here it is commonly accepted as safe behavior.

If you drive over 130 kph and are involved in an accident, you are considered be at fault.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Maybe if you lived in Germany.  Here it is commonly accepted as safe behavior.
> 
> If you drive over 130 kph and are involved in an accident, you are considered be at fault.


...over 130 kph on a German autobahn...


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I dunno, the CDC is kinda dodgy these days with their data.  Can't seem to make up their mind on what to release, what to hide, what to do additional research on.  One day this, one day that.


Weak.


----------



## crush

This lawyer makes some valued points.  









						We Are Being LIED TO - How Venerable Institutions Have Been Compromised - Viva Frei Vlawg
					

From the White House to Lancet... We aren being LIED TO and venerable institutions have been compromised.  Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzGiDDKdphJ0GFvEd82WfYQ/join




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Weak.


nahh, it's the truth.  They've completely lost control of the narrative and are no longer a respected source of info for covid..  Their credibility has taken a hit.  As a casual consumer of info, you are likely well served by the CDC.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> nahh, it's the truth.  They've completely lost control of the narrative and are no longer a respected source of info for covid..  Their credibility has taken a hit.  As a casual consumer of info, you are likely well served by the CDC.


I can see several untruths in your statement.  Would you like to try again?


----------



## espola

espola said:


> ...over 130 kph on a German autobahn...







__





						Accident on the Bundesautobahn 5 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12422


If you convert cases to actual numbers, the cases aren't that far off between vaccinated/boosted and unvaccinated.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> If you convert cases to actual numbers, the cases aren't that far off between vaccinated/boosted and unvaccinated.


And...?


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> In the end it makes little difference.
> 
> Unless a covid variation comes out that is very deadly, people are moving on.
> 
> We are done with masks, distancing, shutting stuff down, etc.
> 
> It simply doesn't work.
> 
> It is simple. If you want the vax have at it. If others don't, it isn't on you.
> 
> It is why despite a NY mandate on masks, etc the gov said she will not enforce it.
> It is why CO said, ok we are done.
> It is why the Biden admin is now starting to talk about switching the messaging to now we have to live with the virus.
> You will see more government entities take this position.
> 
> People will follow along for a short period of time various restrictions.
> 
> 2 yrs into this they will not. Especially because the vast VAST majority of the population has little to no risk.


Here is a main CNN contributor starting to realize REALITY is different from what he hoped for. When will dad bow down to reality?

Chris Cillizza

_@ChrisCillizza
I've been thinking a lot about why the latest surge has hit me so hard and *I think it's because I have been fooling myself* -- to some extent -- for the last 18 months

@ChrisCillizza
I told myself that the reason to get vaccinated (and boosted) was a) to avoid serious illness if I got Covid and b) to keep myself from passing the virus along to my mom (and other more vulnerable people)

That was what all the experts said the vaccine did. It lessened our chances of severe infection, hospitalization and death.

*But, deep down, I think I believed that being vaccinated (and boosted) would keep me from getting Covid-19 AT ALL.*

Why? Not sure, honestly. But I spent the better part of a year waiting for a vaccine and doing everything I could to keep my family from getting the virus.* It's hard to just turn that switch off.*

I think that's why yesterday -- when it felt like every person I knew was either being diagnosed with Covid or had been exposed to it -- hit me so hard.

Because the reality is -- and has always been even if I didn't realize it -- *that the vaccines don't, really, prevent you from getting the virus. *Or, at least, they don't guarantee it won't happen.

My friend @cwarzel described the view of many people he knew as "chill" about the reality that lots and lots of us (maybe all?) are going to get Covid at some point in the not-too-distant future.

I'm, um, not in the "chill" stage. But, I at least am realizing how badly I miscalculated what the vaccine means and what it is supposed to do.
According to all the available data, it's doing its job (preventing serious illness and death among those infected). But it can never do what I had hoped: Ensure no one I loved will become infected.

*My work now is getting used to that reality. I realize I am way behind lots of other people in doing that.* But, you have to start somewhere._

--
And dad and others? This is what is starting to happen all over the place. People are starting to realize this is here to stay and once they come to that reality, they will not put up with restrictions much longer.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> nahh, it's the truth.  They've completely lost control of the narrative and are no longer a respected source of info for covid..  Their credibility has taken a hit.  As a casual consumer of info, you are likely well served by the CDC.


Gee who framed it like that for you?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Here is a main CNN contributor starting to realize REALITY is different from what he hoped for. When will dad bow down to reality?
> 
> Chris Cillizza
> 
> _@ChrisCillizza
> I've been thinking a lot about why the latest surge has hit me so hard and *I think it's because I have been fooling myself* -- to some extent -- for the last 18 months
> 
> @ChrisCillizza
> I told myself that the reason to get vaccinated (and boosted) was a) to avoid serious illness if I got Covid and b) to keep myself from passing the virus along to my mom (and other more vulnerable people)
> 
> That was what all the experts said the vaccine did. It lessened our chances of severe infection, hospitalization and death.
> 
> *But, deep down, I think I believed that being vaccinated (and boosted) would keep me from getting Covid-19 AT ALL.*
> 
> Why? Not sure, honestly. But I spent the better part of a year waiting for a vaccine and doing everything I could to keep my family from getting the virus.* It's hard to just turn that switch off.*
> 
> I think that's why yesterday -- when it felt like every person I knew was either being diagnosed with Covid or had been exposed to it -- hit me so hard.
> 
> Because the reality is -- and has always been even if I didn't realize it -- *that the vaccines don't, really, prevent you from getting the virus. *Or, at least, they don't guarantee it won't happen.
> 
> My friend @cwarzel described the view of many people he knew as "chill" about the reality that lots and lots of us (maybe all?) are going to get Covid at some point in the not-too-distant future.
> 
> I'm, um, not in the "chill" stage. But, I at least am realizing how badly I miscalculated what the vaccine means and what it is supposed to do.
> According to all the available data, it's doing its job (preventing serious illness and death among those infected). But it can never do what I had hoped: Ensure no one I loved will become infected.
> 
> *My work now is getting used to that reality. I realize I am way behind lots of other people in doing that.* But, you have to start somewhere._
> 
> --
> And dad and others? This is what is starting to happen all over the place. People are starting to realize this is here to stay and once they come to that reality, they will not put up with restrictions much longer.


I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way.  While I don't think the media and politicians explicitly stated that you can't get the virus if your vaccinated they certainly led you to believe that it would be rare.  Also by mandating the vaccine they gave you the impression that the vaccine was very effective against infection...because you can't spread Covid if you don't get Covid.  The basis for the mandates was to prevent community spread which we've now found that the vaccine is ineffective against community spread.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way.  While I don't think the media and politicians explicitly stated that you can't get the virus if your vaccinated they certainly led you to believe that it would be rare.  Also by mandating the vaccine they gave you the impression that the vaccine was very effective against infection...because you can't spread Covid if you don't get Covid.  The basis for the mandates was to prevent community spread which we've now found that the vaccine is ineffective against community spread.


What definition of "ineffective" are you using there?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12422


And...?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> What definition of "ineffective" are you using there?


All of them.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Gee who framed it like that for you?


Interesting statement.  Why would I need someone to frame it that way for me? Unlike you, or at least the perception of you, I am a skeptic when it comes to messaging from our government entities.  I prefer conduct my own analysis and seek out other experts and compare.  Don't you remember 2 weeks?  How about 4th of July cookouts.  I could go on and on.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> All of them.


Because all the reports say they don't work well. 

Because daily you see large amount of cases in the vaxxed.

Should we go on espola?

On the bright side...so far this variant seems mild.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I can see several untruths in your statement.  Would you like to try again?


Put your readers back on.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What definition of "ineffective" are you using there?


Does it stop community spread?  Are the NFL and NHL not communities?   Are you a pfizer/moderna investor?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> And...?


The more vaccinated the better.

Are numbers a challenge for you?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Put your readers back on.


That's no better.  In fact, you are going in the wrong direction.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Does it stop community spread?  Are the NFL and NHL not communities?   Are you a pfizer/moderna investor?


It has been demonstrated that vaccines are effective at reducing the rate of community spread and probably are also effective at reducing the total number of cases (I will leave the statistical work on that point to someone more inclined than I am for that work).


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Interesting statement.  Why would I need someone to frame it that way for me? Unlike you, or at least the perception of you, I am a skeptic when it comes to messaging from our government entities.  I prefer conduct my own analysis and seek out other experts and compare.  Don't you remember 2 weeks?  How about 4th of July cookouts.  I could go on and on.


What does any of that have to do with raw numbers from CDC?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It has been demonstrated that vaccines are effective at reducing the rate of community spread and probably are also effective at reducing the total number of cases (I will leave the statistical work on that point to someone more inclined than I am for that work).


It has also been demonstrated to not stop community spread.  Is the benchmark reduction of total cases or minimizing adverse disease outcomes?  Now you are sounding like the CDC.  Can't we just say the vaccines suck and only those who are vulnerable should consider taking a vaccine?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That's no better.  In fact, you are going in the wrong direction.


now you are babbling...


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It has been demonstrated that vaccines are effective at reducing the rate of community spread and probably are also effective at reducing the total number of cases (I will leave the statistical work on that point to someone more inclined than I am for that work).


Well, I hope at some point someone comes up with vaccine.  That way you can stop taking those antibody assistance injections..


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> now you are babbling...


No, I'm not.  I only use "readers" in unusual cases, such as a math book with small print superscripts, such as this formula for Riemann's zeta function --



And even more to the point, when reading things like that on my laptop I can zoom in (unpinch or Ctrl+) so the little s superscripts are quite plain.

When I stated that you had made errors in your post, you didxn't attempt to defend them, you just made an ad hominem attack.  Do we have to go throough all that again?

You are free to rant to any length on any topic you wish, but don't try to pretend that it is the truth.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Well, I hope at some point someone comes up with vaccine.  That way you can stop taking those antibody assistance injections..


"Antibody assistance injections"?  That is what every vaccine does.

What I would like to see is covidicide drug, working like the quinine derivatives do against malaria.  The new Pfizer pill shows some promise in that direction.


----------



## watfly

Here's a definition of ineffective.  NHL players and staff are 100% vaccinated (actually only 1 player in the league is unvaccinated) and there are currently over 100 players that have tested into Covid protocols.  The season has now been paused until at least Saturday.


----------



## watfly

Victory for San Diego kids.  Hopefully this paves the way for all California kids.









						Judge rules against San Diego Unified's COVID-19 student vaccine mandate
					

Judge said it's within the purview of the state Legislature, not school districts, to mandate a vaccine for school attendance.




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Here's a definition of ineffective.  NHL players and staff are 100% vaccinated (actually only 1 player in the league is unvaccinated) and there are currently over 100 players that have tested into Covid protocols.  The season has now been paused until at least Saturday.


How many would have been infected if none were vaccinated?  Without that number, you can't judge its effectiveness.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> How many would have been infected if none were vaccinated?  Without that number, you can't judge its effectiveness.


What part of "community spread" don't you understand?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> How many would have been infected if none were vaccinated?  Without that number, you can't judge its effectiveness.


What they are finding is that vs Delta the vaccines degraded significantly. Ie the hope that boosters would save the day. We have been watching the fully vaxxed catch Delta with increasing frequency.

With omicron, they do little to stop the spread. In other words outside of still have protection vs getting seriously ill, they don't stop the vaxxed from getting or spreading the virus very well. 

In a sense the vaxx seems like a flu vax. Works (if they pick the right one) against the current variant. Not terribly useful for the next variant.

The current vaccines were designed to fight the early variants.. not the latest iterations


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> What part of "community spread" don't you understand?


Please continue.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> No, I'm not.  I only use "readers" in unusual cases, such as a math book with small print superscripts, such as this formula for Riemann's zeta function --
> 
> View attachment 12423
> 
> And even more to the point, when reading things like that on my laptop I can zoom in (unpinch or Ctrl+) so the little s superscripts are quite plain.
> 
> When I stated that you had made errors in your post, you didxn't attempt to defend them, you just made an ad hominem attack.  Do we have to go throough all that again?
> 
> You are free to rant to any length on any topic you wish, but don't try to pretend that it is the truth.


what were the errors?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> "Antibody assistance injections"?  That is what every vaccine does.
> 
> What I would like to see is covidicide drug, working like the quinine derivatives do against malaria.  The new Pfizer pill shows some promise in that direction.


I'm using this post tomorrow morning.  

Yea, pfizer - using words like likely, it may, promising data.  Personally, I hope it works.  Oral therapuetics are easier to get into people as opposed to vaccines.  Doesn't make sense to me but that's just the way it goes.  Besides, pharma loves pills, more $$$.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> what were the errors?


See underlined.

nahh, it's the truth. They've completely lost control of the narrative and are no longer a respected source of info for covid.. Their credibility has taken a hit. As a casual consumer of info, you are likely well served by the CDC.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'm using this post tomorrow morning.
> 
> Yea, pfizer - using words like likely, it may, promising data.  Personally, I hope it works.  Oral therapuetics are easier to get into people as opposed to vaccines.  Doesn't make sense to me but that's just the way it goes.  Besides, pharma loves pills, more $$$.


The mechanism they said they are using (causing errors in the viral DNA replication process so that the resulting particles are non-viable) looks interesting.  I wonder if there are undesirable side effects, since it seems like such a powerful process.

If you are going to reduce every discussion to $$$, there is no hope for a reasonable discussion with you.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> See underlined.
> 
> nahh, it's the truth. They've completely lost control of the narrative and are no longer a respected source of info for covid.. Their credibility has taken a hit. As a casual consumer of info, you are likely well served by the CDC.


Add these --

I dunno, the CDC is kinda dodgy these days with their data. Can't seem to make up their mind on what to release, what to hide, what to do additional research on. One day this, one day that.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Interesting statement.  Why would I need someone to frame it that way for me? Unlike you, or at least the perception of you, I am a skeptic when it comes to messaging from our government entities.  I prefer conduct my own analysis and seek out other experts and compare.  Don't you remember 2 weeks?  How about 4th of July cookouts.  I could go on and on.


Skeptic who does their own analysis?

Where is the analysis?  All I see are conclusions which you could easily have cribbed from Breitbart.  Not a number in sight.

That‘s a sheep, not a skeptic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Interesting statement.  Why would I need someone to frame it that way for me? Unlike you, or at least the perception of you, I am a skeptic when it comes to messaging from our government entities.  I prefer conduct my own analysis and seek out other experts and compare.  Don't you remember 2 weeks?  How about 4th of July cookouts.  I could go on and on.


So you “seek out other experts”? Where do you get your information from?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> It has also been demonstrated to not stop community spread.  Is the benchmark reduction of total cases or minimizing adverse disease outcomes?  Now you are sounding like the CDC. * Can't we just say the vaccines suck* and only those who are vulnerable should consider taking a vaccine?


Yes!


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Victory for San Diego kids.  Hopefully this paves the way for all California kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judge rules against San Diego Unified's COVID-19 student vaccine mandate
> 
> 
> Judge said it's within the purview of the state Legislature, not school districts, to mandate a vaccine for school attendance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


Old man Espola wants those kids indoors and with a mask on,  Omicron is here to take over Delta!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

To normal Norm and Frank the Fence Sitter:

All the tweets of the recent Democrat politicians getting COVID have this in common and they want me to do as they say and be just like them. President of The United States of America is going to tell me and my family that were going to die this Winter unless we obey.  I will say 100% and double say with absolute certainty and with 100% conviction that we never ever will we trust these desperados ever again.  Talk about going from two weeks to stop the curve and free lotto tickets to tonight's rebuke and prediction that anyone not vaccinated will die this Winter.  I now see this as a threat.  White House Chief liar backed it up saying the "truth is the truth."  Wow, predictions are now the truth.  Thanks for adding excitement to my Christmas Eve Family dinner with all the outlaws and that all are vaxed but the Fearsome Four.  My family is the only group that will not be vaxed.  I have a feeling Joey "Bribes" Biden will tell my jabed side of the family to not allow us over for Tamales.  I will say right now if we are blocked entry into my sister in laws crib, we will drive down to a homeless shelter in East LA and give them all their presents and the food.  The Great Awaking is also the Great Separation.  Most of the people I know WHO already obeyed and got three shits will say this is wrong to treat crush and his family as complete outcast like they did in Germany but will most likely turn the other way as to not see or feel our true pain of not being able to buy or sell or eat anymore un;ess were like ALL of you.  You see, ALL of you are ALL the same.  5 Gee is being rolled out on 1/5/2022.  Only two types of people now.

Top Dems all agree with how you show true solidary to their side.  It's a jab of honor!!!  In order to be on their team, you must obey.
"I got 1st shot, I got 2nd shot, I got booster and I just got COVID.  Go Team Jab!!!"  You now must give praises how effective the vaccines have been at making sure you come down with Covid & Delta and Omicron.  Either one.  This is the new way of them explaining how this all works and how to stay on their team.

I absolutely love science.  Espola, GG and The Husler and the rest of you will go together the rest of the way.  I will miss you all.  The pull to separate is real and so powerful, like magnet of separation.


*Boston Implementing Proof of Vaccination Requirement for Restaurants, Other Indoor Venues*
*All city employees will also be required to be vaccinated on the same timeline*

BTW, Mayor Wu from Boston is now requring vax or no buy or selling in the market place.

"This is just one step in an aggressive approach the city has already been working hard to implement," Wu said. "It is absolutely a necessary one. We're ready to take this step forward to protect our residents."

I will just say this.  Wait for the second step and the third.  The third will be a kick with a boot telling the non-vax never to come back to their Democratic City.  When I was into baseball and had season tickets to the Angels, the most annoying fans were those folks from New York and Boston.  You guys are losing your cities as I write this.  I'm sure LA is next and those fans were also annoying.  All of you would roll into OC and take over our stadium as if it was your stadium.  No respect,  2002 was still one of the most fun times ever for me talking smack at all the games.  I loved watching you lose and now look at your cities.  Yukkie!!!  Thank God my son and DD turn down some deals to go to college in those cities.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Skeptic who does their own analysis?
> 
> Where is the analysis?  All I see are conclusions which you could easily have cribbed from Breitbart.  Not a number in sight.
> 
> That‘s a sheep, not a skeptic.


What numbers and data do you seek?  Why do you need my analysis, you seem to be doing just fine in your neck of the woods, passing judgement on others.

Funny choice of words, sheep.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you “seek out other experts”? Where do you get your information from?


ahhh, now we are playing footsies.  Obviously not from the same source as you.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> ahhh, now we are playing footsies.  Obviously not from the same source as you.


The lowest of low of humanity is what we have been dealing with.  You notice now how these humans have no empathy towards others?  Their way is the only way.  Cheating and lying is par for their course. They hate anyone who thinks for themselves or dare ask a question or two and believe in God.  Today is start of The Winter of Death.  They picked today and the Holiday coming up on purpose.  Their time is over and you are now seeing the true Espola and The Husler Dad.  Espola has been involved in youth soccer for over 40 years.  Imagine this guy on boards?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The mechanism they said they are using (causing errors in the viral DNA replication process so that the resulting particles are non-viable) looks interesting.  I wonder if there are undesirable side effects, since it seems like such a powerful process.
> 
> If you are going to reduce every discussion to $$$, there is no hope for a reasonable discussion with you.


You can't separate the $$$, Pfizer/others run a profitable business.  You are being linear and maybe naive.  Find a pharma rep and follow him/her around for a day or two. 

From a treatment perspective, pills are easier.  It's easier to send someone home with a script. Their doesn't appear to be any cultural aversion to them, which is silly.  I haven't dug into the trials but apparetly the safety profile is pretty good.  Has been good so far for MABs.

I think my position is pretty clear - comphrehensive approach to treating this disease.  Healthcare is art and science.  We are past the point of preventing transmission, have been for a while.  We never really had a chance to prevent transmission.  We though vaccines were the answer, and they were until they weren't.  Lockdown, masks,social distancing didn't work...couldn't work.   Current vaccine technology isn't going to do it, obvious to most. 

Endemic is likley here.  More data to come but so far so good.  The bottom hasn't dropped out of SA, the UK data is still coming out.  Plenty of people here in the US  have likley contracted omicron and don't even know it.  Boosters will help those most vulnerable, won't matter much for those not in that category.  *Besides, we should  be focusing on why Fentanyl overdoses have killed more people aged 18 to 45 since 2020 than COVID, car accidents, and even suicides.  An epidemic that has been glossed over by our beloved government.  *I have a bigger concern in tackling this than worrying about vaccines for the healthy 5-55 crowd.  I haven't seen much spewing of the mouth from talking heads on how we combat this.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> ahhh, now we are playing footsies.  Obviously not from the same source as you.


An “expert” has finally come out and said what some of us have been saying for a while. Cnns dr leanna wen was clipped on air saying that against omicron cloth masks are “little more than facial decorations” and urging people not to wear cloth masks

but she’s probably now a fringe quack that needs to be taken down (there’s an email circulating about from fauci and co when the Gbd came out that they needed to deploy info ops to discredit and take down the Gbd).  She’s not a real expert anymore if she’s an apostate

her break from the ranks also throws into question the entirety of child masking under 12….surgical masks in their size are hardly ubiquitous…so parents if they use surgicals generally send them in adult sizes which is laughable….like this little girl we say wearing one at the Mexican restaurant with huge gaps next to her face…it’s not stopping any more than the adults eating maskless right next to her.  Wen basically admitted child masking is all theatre.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> What numbers and data do you seek?  Why do you need my analysis, you seem to be doing just fine in your neck of the woods, passing judgement on others.
> 
> Funny choice of words, sheep.


Sheep seems accurate for you.

Looks like both Husker and I chose to call your bluff.  He asked for your data sources, I asked for your analysis.  You replied to both, but provided neither data nor analysis.

You’re the second guy here to try the gambit of pretending to know things you don’t.  Eventually, people realize you’re blowing smoke and put you on ignore.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> An “expert” has finally come out and said what some of us have been saying for a while. Cnns dr leanna wen was clipped on air saying that against omicron cloth masks are “little more than facial decorations” and urging people not to wear cloth masks
> 
> but she’s probably now a fringe quack that needs to be taken down (there’s an email circulating about from fauci and co when the Gbd came out that they needed to deploy info ops to discredit and take down the Gbd).  She’s not a real expert anymore if she’s an apostate
> 
> her break from the ranks also throws into question the entirety of child masking under 12….surgical masks in their size are hardly ubiquitous…so parents if they use surgicals generally send them in adult sizes which is laughable….like this little girl we say wearing one at the Mexican restaurant with huge gaps next to her face…it’s not stopping any more than the adults eating maskless right next to her.  Wen basically admitted child masking is all theatre.


Let me guess.  The original quote was asking people to upgrade their masks from cloth to surgical or N95.  You then decided to rephrase it as advising people to not wear cloth masks, as though a bare face were part of the original advice.

As before, the original advice is solid.  The Grace Revision is bogus.

If you want Dr. Leana Wen’s thoughts on masks: 

“Thank you! I am just noticing that some people on Twitter are misinterpreting my comments to mean that mask mandates shouldn’t be in place in schools, which is not at all what I’m saying. Especially kids under 5–masks are one of few protective measures they have.”



			https://twitter.com/DrLeanaWen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
		


Dr. Wen does not appear to subscribe to the Grace Revision.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Sheep seems accurate for you.
> 
> Looks like both Husker and I chose to call your bluff.  He asked for your data sources, I asked for your analysis.  You replied to both, but provided neither data nor analysis.
> 
> You’re the second guy here to try the gambit of pretending to know things you don’t.  Eventually, people realize you’re blowing smoke and put you on ignore.


Writing like Espola again I see.  Look liar, none of your avatars will need to ignore me ever again because I will be ignoring you because I will not be on this message board.  I have not decided what day will be my last but it will be this year for sure.  I will finish strong though and let take my stand against all you who turned a blind eye to the kids.  I will allow you and the rest of the fellas n Grace T to have at it.  I am not making satire either.  The truth is I got a fucking job that I start on Jan 4th, 2022 and I need to get ready.  Finally I found a company willing to take a chance with crush.  This gig allows me to work remotely from anywhere in the USA and away from people wearing a mask and with fearalitis.  No more dealing with businesses forcing me to get jabbed to have a job or to be allowed entry so I can spend my money and no more worries about what my neighbors are spying on. Hound, get ready for some golf bro.  AZ will be a place I will be at for at least a month out of the year.   Bye bye big city and bye bye politics.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Let me guess.  The original quote was asking people to upgrade their masks from cloth to surgical or N95.  You then decided to rephrase it as advising people to not wear cloth masks, as though a bare face were part of the original advice.
> 
> As before, the original advice is solid.  The Grace Revision is bogus.
> 
> If you want Dr. Leana Wen’s thoughts on masks:
> 
> “Thank you! I am just noticing that some people on Twitter are misinterpreting my comments to mean that mask mandates shouldn’t be in place in schools, which is not at all what I’m saying. Especially kids under 5–masks are one of few protective measures they have.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/DrLeanaWen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Wen does not appear to subscribe to the Grace Revision.


It’s easy because she’s only allowed to go so far: “ upgrade to surgicals for most of the population good”

“hey doc…but what about kids under 12 for whom they don’t have anything other than cloth masks”

“[sees angry tweets on her feed…takes call from fauci] I didn’t mean them.  They should continue to use cloth masks”

“but you just said cloth masks are as good as facial decorations against the omicron. Do they somehow work now if you are under 12?  Why you call them facial decorations if they work?”

crickets

“I don’t like it when you use logic against me.You are bending a distorting my words”

seriously do you ever hear yourself???


----------



## crush

Biden to announce support for hospitals, access to free COVID tests, vaccine availability amid *omicron surge * ((But the top Dems get Covid and not Omicron?))
Biden is expected to announce *three steps* he'll take to counter the omicron variant's spread

Across the country, schools are beginning to shift to remote learning, restaurants are *closing their doors* to the public, and events are once again being* canceled* as a result of the new omicron variant of the coronavirus. Broadway shows in New York City have been *canceled,* along with the Rockettes' "Christmas Spectacular" shows. The National Hockey League also announced a *pause* to its season.

Amid the *surge* in new cases, senior administration officials said the president on Tuesday will announce *three steps to build* on his *previously announced winter plan* ((of certain death for me and my family)).

As part of this effort, the president is set to *direct Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin* to mobilize *1,000 members of the military* to *deploy* to overburdened hospitals in January and February in an effort to increase hospital capacity, and to provide critical supplies and materials needed to get more hospital beds online.

The* president is also expected to ask *((command)) the Federal Emergency Management Agency to activate the National Response Coordination Center and to *deploy FEMA planners* to assess hospital needs.



Officials said the Biden administration will purchase half a billion rapid tests to be distributed to Americans—free of charge—and will set up a website where Americans can get an at-home COVID-19 test delivered for free. Officials said that system will be set up in January.

Officials said that testing in the United States is "a lot better than it was," but admitted that "there’s more to do."

"We’re taking action now," one official said.

"Listen to the advice from doctors: even if you’re fully vaccinated, you should wear a mask when indoors in a public setting," Biden tweeted. "It will help protect you and others—especially kids under 5 who can’t get vaccinated yet."

*The president went on to thank frontline workers  ((Except the one's who got fired already for not obeying orders)) for their work "after a painful and difficult two years," saying the nation owes them "a tremendous debt." ((You're Fired!!))*

"I am once again asking for your strength, and I’ll never forget it," he tweeted, urging Americans to "get vaccinated, get boosted, wear a mask."

He added: "And keep the faith."


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> You can't separate the $$$, Pfizer/others run a profitable business.  You are being linear and maybe naive.  Find a pharma rep and follow him/her around for a day or two.
> 
> From a treatment perspective, pills are easier.  It's easier to send someone home with a script. Their doesn't appear to be any cultural aversion to them, which is silly.  I haven't dug into the trials but apparetly the safety profile is pretty good.  Has been good so far for MABs.
> 
> I think my position is pretty clear - comphrehensive approach to treating this disease.  Healthcare is art and science.  We are past the point of preventing transmission, have been for a while.  We never really had a chance to prevent transmission.  We though vaccines were the answer, and they were until they weren't.  Lockdown, masks,social distancing didn't work...couldn't work.   Current vaccine technology isn't going to do it, obvious to most.
> 
> Endemic is likley here.  More data to come but so far so good.  The bottom hasn't dropped out of SA, the UK data is still coming out.  Plenty of people here in the US  have likley contracted omicron and don't even know it.  Boosters will help those most vulnerable, won't matter much for those not in that category.  *Besides, we should  be focusing on why Fentanyl overdoses have killed more people aged 18 to 45 since 2020 than COVID, car accidents, and even suicides.  An epidemic that has been glossed over by our beloved government.  *I have a bigger concern in tackling this than worrying about vaccines for the healthy 5-55 crowd.  I haven't seen much spewing of the mouth from talking heads on how we combat this.


Those earlier attempts at control didn't work because of a large number of people who ignored, resisted, and rebelled against them.  Covid doesn't care about your civil rights.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> It’s easy because she’s only allowed to go so far: “ upgrade to surgicals for most of the population good”
> 
> “hey doc…but what about kids under 12 for whom they don’t have anything other than cloth masks”
> 
> “[sees angry tweets on her feed…takes call from fauci] I didn’t mean them.  They should continue to use cloth masks”
> 
> “but you just said cloth masks are as good as facial decorations against the omicron. Do they somehow work now if you are under 12?  Why you call them facial decorations if they work?”
> 
> crickets
> 
> “I don’t like it when you use logic against me.You are bending a distorting my words”
> 
> seriously do you ever hear yourself???


Ps here’s another little logic loop the health authorities have gotten themselves into. In the northeast they are just itching to at least delay the return of in person schools.  emails have been disclosed online from various school districts to staff or parents warning about the possibility and to make necessary preparations

but the bars and restaurants are open…still packed.  So you can’t justify to parents shutting down the lower risk schools (with the lower risk kids in them) while the bars and restaurants are open (particularly with theVirginia and New Jersey elections in the background).  But you can’t shut down the bars and restaurants because they’ll come after you with the pitchforks (the schools are easier to shut down since you run them and the children don’t vote)

kinda reminiscent of California and the Disneyland rule. They kept making plans over and over again to “safely” reopen Disneyland but they couldn’t do it while schools were shut or in hybrid because you can’t have the optics of kids hanging out at Disney on a school day.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Those earlier attempts at control didn't work because of a large number of people who ignored, resisted, and rebelled against them.*  JaCovid Witnesses* don't care about your civil rights.


And neither do you.  I fix it for you cheater.  Man Espola, you are in dark dark place surrounded by the LIGHT now.  It blows me away to see your trueself now.  How do you sleep at night?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> “Thank you! I am just noticing that some people on Twitter are misinterpreting my comments to mean that mask mandates shouldn’t be in place in schools, which is not at all what I’m saying. Especially kids under 5–masks are one of few protective measures they have.”


Well she is not much of a doctor. 

Why would I say that? 

She talks about kids and masks as one of the few protective measures they have. The implication being they are at risk. 

Kids have basically zero risk. They don't need masks, shots or social distancing. Deaths in the under 17 group to date are in the hundreds.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Ps here’s another little logic loop the health authorities have gotten themselves into. In the northeast they are just itching to at least delay the return of in person schools.  emails have been disclosed online from various school districts to staff or parents warning about the possibility and to make necessary preparations
> 
> but the bars and restaurants are open…still packed.  So you can’t justify to parents shutting down the lower risk schools (with the lower risk kids in them) while the bars and restaurants are open (particularly with theVirginia and New Jersey elections in the background).  But you can’t shut down the bars and restaurants because they’ll come after you with the pitchforks (the schools are easier to shut down since you run them and the children don’t vote)
> 
> kinda reminiscent of California and the Disneyland rule. They kept making plans over and over again to “safely” reopen Disneyland but they couldn’t do it while schools were shut or in hybrid because you can’t have the optics of kids hanging out at Disney on a school day.


I wish you all the best dealing with the beast.  I applaud your efforts.   I'm going all in before I leave so get the popcorn out.  This will be a marathon of all marathons.  I have to get everything I feel out on this message board.  I have it all and I'm going to release the Kraken before I leave for good.  I have never in my life been around a more selfish group of men in my life.  Total losers who use kids, woman and men to further their sick agenda.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Well she is not much of a doctor.
> 
> Why would I say that?
> 
> She talks about kids and masks as one of the few protective measures they have. The implication being they are at risk.
> 
> Kids have basically zero risk. They don't need masks, shots or social distancing. Deaths in the under 17 group to date are in the hundreds.


How much a doctor are you?


----------



## Desert Hound

And speaking of the tide turning...

NFL is changing its policy regarding Covid. They are starting to move on.

More and more of this is coming...which is about time. Society cannot remain in limbo wondering about the next variant around the corner and we cannot yet do this or that because something in the future might happen.

Reality is setting in for more and more people. 




> Pro athletes _are _the fittest human beings on the planet — and are dosed up with multiple vaccinations. Most are in their twenties. To call these protocols a “charade” would be a disservice to charades. Pro sports leagues, who have been playing for fifteen weeks to sold-out stadiums and arenas, with no mass breakouts of any kind, can and should develop the kind of common-sense measures that the NFL has adopted, and they should get their games on.
> In fact, businesses, schools, universities, media companies and government agencies should all be adopting the NFL model: test the symptomatic and let them stay home. If people have no symptoms, especially professional athletes, then life has to find a way to return to normal. Omicron is here. The data shows that vaccination does not prevent infection, but rather means the illness manifests as a mild cold and cough.
> *The NFL model offers a path back to normalcy, out of the current media-driven malaise surrounding variants and never-ending permanent masking and lockdowns.* Covid can be a tricky disease, but it’s not a death sentence for the young and relatively healthy. *It’s something we are going to have to learn to live with, in life, in work, in service and in sports.* Let them play.











						Pro sports can lead us out of pandemic insanity
					

With the revelation that the Omicron variant can still infect a vaccinated person, pro sports should be rethinking their protocol systems




					spectatorworld.com


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Sheep seems accurate for you.
> 
> Looks like both Husker and I chose to call your bluff.  He asked for your data sources, I asked for your analysis.  You replied to both, but provided neither data nor analysis.
> 
> You’re the second guy here to try the gambit of pretending to know things you don’t.  Eventually, people realize you’re blowing smoke and put you on ignore.


the irony that you should label someone a sheep.  What bluff are referring to?  To continue to regurgitate meaningless data for you to analyze is silly and wasteful.  What gambit?  And what smoke? 

Vaccines kinda work?  Early treatment is a thing, mandates are challening - don't really work.  

But you go ahead and stick to your data, shoving a square peg into a round hole.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Those earlier attempts at control didn't work because of a large number of people who ignored, resisted, and rebelled against them.  Covid doesn't care about your civil rights.


To some degree you are correct - healthy people will not 100% submit to quarantine and lockdowns, at least not in this country. 

What many people like you dont' get is that the virus was circulating prior to lockdowns.  It was already here..it's how virus's work.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> And speaking of the tide turning...
> 
> NFL is changing its policy regarding Covid. They are starting to move on.
> 
> More and more of this is coming...which is about time. Society cannot remain in limbo wondering about the next variant around the corner and we cannot yet do this or that because something in the future might happen.
> 
> Reality is setting in for more and more people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro sports can lead us out of pandemic insanity
> 
> 
> With the revelation that the Omicron variant can still infect a vaccinated person, pro sports should be rethinking their protocol systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spectatorworld.com


The Biden at home test plan crush just published also helps turn the tide.  Those cases aren’t recorded.   It means less testing with public health which can go into official tallies. It’s why they didn’t want to do it at first but now faced with “do something” picked this


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> How much a doctor are you?


To continue the $$$ theme, that lady is all about making money, promoting her book.  Her stance was popular 10 months ago.  She's been cashing in.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> How many would have been infected if none were vaccinated?  Without that number, you can't judge its effectiveness.


Glad you don't make condoms...could you imagine "Espola's Willy Wrappers.  We will stop some of your lil' swimmers.  Guaranteed Sorta-Effective."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It’s easy because she’s only allowed to go so far: “ upgrade to surgicals for most of the population good”
> 
> “hey doc…but what about kids under 12 for whom they don’t have anything other than cloth masks”
> 
> “[sees angry tweets on her feed…takes call from fauci] I didn’t mean them.  They should continue to use cloth masks”
> 
> “but you just said cloth masks are as good as facial decorations against the omicron. Do they somehow work now if you are under 12?  Why you call them facial decorations if they work?”
> 
> crickets


Cognitive dissonance. Also, as @Desert Hound points out, "protecting children" is just a fantasy made up by adults who are afraid - protected by facial decorations, no less. It's fascinating to watch how individual beliefs, faith really, allows people to twist anything to match those beliefs.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> To some degree you are correct - healthy people will not 100% submit to quarantine and lockdowns, at least not in this country.
> 
> What many people like you dont' get is that the virus was circulating prior to lockdowns.  It was already here..it's how virus's work.


q.e.d.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Glad you don't make condoms...could you imagine "Espola's Willy Wrappers.  We will stop some of your lil' swimmers.  Guaranteed Sorta-Effective."


It seems you have run out of sensible things to post.

Anyone who thinks that a vaccine will give the recipient condom-like protection is just begging to be called ignorant.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Cognitive dissonance. Also, as @Desert Hound points out, "protecting children" is just a fantasy made up by adults who are afraid - protected by facial decorations, no less. It's fascinating to watch how individual beliefs, faith really, allows people to twist anything to match those beliefs.


I've noticed.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I've noticed.


what exactly do you support?

Bar/restaurant restrictions?
mask mandates?
vaxx passports?
mandatory vaccines?
school closures in light of omicron?

Lay out exactly what you support.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> q.e.d.


ha..at least try and use it correctly.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> what exactly do you support?
> 
> Bar/restaurant restrictions?
> mask mandates?
> vaxx passports?
> mandatory vaccines?
> school closures in light of omicron?
> 
> Lay out exactly what you support.


What I have noticed is "individual beliefs, faith really, allows people to twist anything to match those beliefs."


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> ha..at least try and use it correctly.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> What did I get wrong?


Lets see.  Everything!!!


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> what exactly do you support?
> 
> Bar/restaurant restrictions?
> mask mandates?
> vaxx passports?
> mandatory vaccines?
> school closures in light of omicron?
> 
> Lay out exactly what you support.


He supports cheating at all cost and then lie to cover up the cheating.  If kids have a little disruption in thirr life, too bad.  Espola hid under desk and had to sit out in the middle of the ocean during lnad combat.  You and Kerry shipmates?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> What I have noticed is "individual beliefs, faith really, allows people to twist anything to match those beliefs."


So you are unwilling to state your position on any of those?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> what exactly do you support?
> 
> Bar/restaurant restrictions?
> mask mandates?
> vaxx passports?
> mandatory vaccines?
> school closures in light of omicron?
> 
> Lay out exactly what you support.


Kind of pointless to start talking policy before we can agree on basic facts.

The last time we checked, you were still pretending that maskless indoor spaces are low risk and that vaccines have no impact on transmission.

It's hard to have a public health policy discussion when we can't even agree on how the disease spreads or what the main medicine does.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Kind of pointless to start talking policy before we can agree on basic facts.
> 
> The last time we checked, you were still pretending that maskless indoor spaces are low risk and that vaccines have no impact on transmission.


Masks do little.

What I have argued from the beginning is that we have to live with this. We cannot keep stuff closed, kids out of schools, etc. It is not and never was sustainable.

Basically I have been arguing what is fairly obvious. IE reality. The virus is going to spread no matter what and it is endemic and we simply have to live with it and move on. 

You still believe this all would have been stopped long ago, despite billions not being vaxxed and variations arising from those areas.

Who has been right as to where we end up? You? Nope.

The reality is you are seeing everyone moving to the position I said was inevitable. Living with it. More and more are coming to that conclusion. 

I deal in reality. You keep looking at the models and wondering why they have not worked as you believe.


----------



## crush

*Varney: Biden omicron plan is a test of his leadership*
From Stu........




President Biden to outline plans on *tackling* omicron variant *((Stu, I like you but you can't tackle the wind or this virus for that matter.  No one can tackle a virus))*

STUART VARNEY: _In a few hours, the president addresses the nation.  *((Oh boy, I can;t wait))*

It’s not a press conference, no questions.* ((I figured that))*

It’s the president outlining his plan to tackle omicron, *((Impossible to tackle this bullshit Stu)).*

it’s a test of his leadership. *((Oh really?))*

Just two days after the Build Back Better debacle, he needs to show he's in charge, that he knows what he's doing.  *((Too late for that)).  

We are told the plan has three parts:*_

*Part 1- Death*
*Part 2- More Death*
*Part 3- More and more death*




_To help with more death, Joey has called *1,000 military personnel deployed* to make sure they don't run short of supplies *((body bags and caskets))*

Access to free tests. *((Free is an interesting word to use.  It's free or you get fired for saying no to free vax and free test))*

The* government will buy 500 million rapid tests* and set up new testing sites. _*((Some folks are making bank.  Bill Gates is in on this test too))*

_A few days ago, the president warned that the unvaxxed will overwhelm hospitals in this "winter of illness and death."  *((Thanks for reminding me of my death sentence.  First off, you assholes want to make us suffer and make xample of us critical thinkers who think with their brain first.  Then assholes allow us to lose job and then watch us starve and then die at the fucking hospital)).*

By the way, today is the first day of winter!  *((Yes Stu. I already pointed the obvious out to my friends here at the socal forum.  99% got the jab already))*

It’s been two years since the words 'COVID-19' first appeared.  *((Yes, I remember two years ago i got it from staying in Kirkland WA for a few days))*

By now, many of us have COVID-fatigue. We're fed up with it!  *((You have no idea Stu.  I have no more friends now except my immediate family and a few soulmates.  I have to leave the state it looks like and get out of the way of all the death.  Joey is not lying you guys.  He's just wrong with WHO is going to meet certain death this winter)).*

Early on, Biden suggested Trump had ‘bungled’ our COVID response.  *((Yes, everything in the chumps fault.  Trump is the chump that caused all this in the first place.  it's all his fault and his mini' memes.  *_


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Kind of pointless to start talking policy before we can agree on basic facts.
> 
> The last time we checked, you were still pretending that maskless indoor spaces are low risk and that vaccines have no impact on transmission.
> 
> It's hard to have a public health policy discussion when we can't even agree on how the disease spreads or what the main medicine does.


This has always been a red herring for you and the establishment experts.  It's a cost/benefit analysis.  Where we disagree is the amount of the benefit (very few people have said vaccines are completely useless, there is no transmission where people gather, masks even N95s have zero protective value, and lockdowns don't save even 1 life).  Your position is we disagree on the amount of the benefit, therefore we cannot have a discussion of the costs, and therefore we cannot come to a conclusion as to the policy.  It's a convenient way to avoid debating your preferred policy subscriptions and submitting them to scrutiny.  It's a convenient way for you to not think about the costs (whether kids in school, drug overdoses, the streets filled with discarded masks and the environmental damage, or the mental damage your interventions do to people).  You get to think only about the hypothetical people you saved and none of the destruction left in its wake.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> *So you are unwilling to state your position on any of those?*


----------



## crush

The hate is coming on hard you guys.  I'm getting it from everyone.  I told normal Norm and Frank how pissed I am that it's gone this far and now I am SOL and have to leave.  The churches who say to get vax because of the scripture being taken out of context below, hate me now too. Old pal was warned to stay away from me.  His Pastor makes over $200K a year and has to obey the mandates to be in good standing with the health pros. This is a business that needs to go, moo!!!  All the Pastors in the bible did NOT get paid to play Pastor and now medicine doctor.  At the end of the day, t got a booster.  He also got a jab. He did say no mandates and no one should be fired or forced to take the jabs and no one should be left out in the cold with no job or food or invite to jab family because of Native and Religous reasons. The JaCovid Witnesses can knock on all the doors they want to spread their forced shots or job, but they can expect to get door shut on them too..

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you."  Hebrews 13:17






I now know it's time to leave for good.  I know when I'm not welcomed or appreciated.  I tried and I cried out for help in soccer and now I have to go off the grid and live in a cave and the woods so no one hates me and blames me for getting Covid death.  It's all my fault for not listening to the experts who care so much for me. It's my fault for killing my children and my wife because I don;t force them to get jabbed.  

At the end of the day, t got a booster.  He also got a jab. He did say no mandates and no one should be fired for not taking the jabs and no one should be left out of the cold with no job or food or invite to jab families.  I will be leaving soon.  The heat is on and I have to start producing for the man beginning Jan 4th, 2022.  I have to pay my share and do my part.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Reality dad.


_In March 2020, a profile of the typical Covid victim emerged from Italy. The average decedent was eighty years old, with approximately three comorbidities such as heart disease, obesity or diabetes. *The young had little to worry about; the survival rate for the vast majority of the population was well over 99 percent.

That portrait never significantly changed. The early assessments of Covid out of Italy have remained valid through today. And so it will prove with the Omicron variant.*

The data out of South Africa, after five weeks of Omicron spread, suggest that Omicron should be a cause for celebration, not fear. Its symptoms are mild to non-existent in the majority of the infected, especially the vaccinated; hospitalization rates are over nine times lower than for previous Covid strains; deaths are negligible. That assessment will only be confirmed as the US and other western countries gather their own data on Omicron.

Yet the public health establishment and the media are working overtime to gin up Omicron hysteria. The official response to the Omicron variant provides a case study in the deliberate manufacture of fear. The following strategies are key:

--

The* only public health experts *whom the media quote are those determined to put the *most dire spin on Omicron.* They stress worst-case hypothetical scenarios and dismiss actual good-case evidence. *At best, they may grudgingly admit that Omicron symptoms are disproportionately mild, but rush to assert that there are still many as-yet unrealized grounds for worry. *“Even if Omicron causes less severe cases, the sheer number of cases could once again overwhelm unprepared health systems,” the director-general of the World Health Organization said. “I’m not counting [Omicron’s lack of severity] as good news just yet,” a disease ecologist at Georgetown University said. “Even if infection is mild in many individuals, it’s not going to be mild in everyone.”

But that 100 percent mildness standard is unrealistic. There are outliers in any disease and any treatment; the question is: what is the predominant reality? *The zero-risk, zero-harm standard for public policy adopted for the first time with Covid has proven a social, economic and public health disaster.*









						Inside the Omicron fear factory - The Spectator World
					

The data out of South Africa, after five weeks of Omicron spread, suggest that Omicron should be a cause for celebration, not fear




					spectatorworld.com
				



_


----------



## crush

NYC, Boston and now Chicago.  I will NEVER visit these cities ever again unless normal Norm and Frank wake TF up.  Theis is pathetic. 

*JUST IN: Chicago Diners Must Show Proof of Vax and Photo ID Before Entering Restaurants*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> This has always been a red herring for you and the establishment experts.  It's a cost/benefit analysis.  Where we disagree is the amount of the benefit (very few people have said vaccines are completely useless, there is no transmission where people gather, masks even N95s have zero protective value, and lockdowns don't save even 1 life).  Your position is we disagree on the amount of the benefit, therefore we cannot have a discussion of the costs, and therefore we cannot come to a conclusion as to the policy.  It's a convenient way to avoid debating your preferred policy subscriptions and submitting them to scrutiny.  It's a convenient way for you to not think about the costs (whether kids in school, drug overdoses, the streets filled with discarded masks and the environmental damage, or the mental damage your interventions do to people).  You get to think only about the hypothetical people you saved and none of the destruction left in its wake.


We don't agree on the effect of masks.  Or the effect of distance.  Or the effect of vaccines.  This is not a minor point.  You are thinking of each factor as 5-10%.  I put them at 40, 50-90, and 50% respectively.

Even supposing we did agree on those, we don't have a common framework for how to evaluate the impact of a transmission reduction.  I would want to look at the impact through the standard model.  You would want to kind of wing it based on your gut.

Which leaves you thinking of a 15% change to the total, and me thinking of an 80-95% change to the parameter.    (And then trying for the 58th time to explain what that means.)

Not a good starting point for discussion.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We don't agree on the effect of masks.  Or the effect of distance.  Or the effect of vaccines.  This is not a minor point.  You are thinking of each factor as 5-10%.  I put them at 40, 50-90, and 50% respectively.
> 
> Even supposing we did agree on those, we don't have a common framework for how to evaluate the impact of a transmission reduction.  I would want to look at the impact through the standard model.  You would want to kind of wing it based on your gut.
> 
> Which leaves you thinking of a 15% change to the total, and me thinking of an 80-95% change to the parameter.    (And then trying for the 58th time to explain what that means.)
> 
> Not a good starting point for discussion.


"We can't discuss a cost/benefit analysis because we don't agree on the benefit.  Therefore, you have to shut up and stop complaining and just accept my policies."


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> "We can't discuss a cost/benefit analysis because we don't agree on the benefit.  Therefore, you have to shut up and stop complaining and just accept my policies."


I love it when Grace just gives up and reverts to fantasies.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I love it when Grace just gives up and reverts to fantasies.


Not fantasy....all stuff he's said including the stop complaining and just listen to the experts.  I think he's even said the "shut up" part, but I'll admit I'm not 100% sure on that one.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> The hate is coming on hard you guys.  I'm getting it from everyone.  I told normal Norm and Frank how pissed I am that it's gone this far and now I am SOL and have to leave.  The churches who say to get vax because of the scripture being taken out of context below, hate me now too. Old pal was warned to stay away from me.  His Pastor makes over $200K a year and has to obey the mandates to be in good standing with the health pros. This is a business that needs to go, moo!!!  All the Pastors in the bible did NOT get paid to play Pastor and now medicine doctor.  At the end of the day, t got a booster.  He also got a jab. He did say no mandates and no one should be fired or forced to take the jabs and no one should be left out in the cold with no job or food or invite to jab family because of Native and Religous reasons. The JaCovid Witnesses can knock on all the doors they want to spread their forced shots or job, but they can expect to get door shut on them too..
> 
> "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you."  Hebrews 13:17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I now know it's time to leave for good.  I know when I'm not welcomed or appreciated.  I tried and I cried out for help in soccer and now I have to go off the grid and live in a cave and the woods so no one hates me and blames me for getting Covid death.  It's all my fault for not listening to the experts who care so much for me. It's my fault for killing my children and my wife because I don;t force them to get jabbed.
> 
> At the end of the day, t got a booster.  He also got a jab. He did say no mandates and no one should be fired for not taking the jabs and no one should be left out of the cold with no job or food or invite to jab families.  I will be leaving soon.  The heat is on and I have to start producing for the man beginning Jan 4th, 2022.  I have to pay my share and do my part.


That clip is from Orgazmo by Parker/Stone.  It's about a Mormon Missionary that becomes a stand-in Superhero in porn movies.  Super inappropriate movie but hilarious.


----------



## Grace T.

reduced risk of severe disease from omicron, some likely due to population immunity.









						Early assessment of the clinical severity of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant in South Africa
					

Background The SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant of concern (VOC) almost completely replaced other variants in South Africa during November 2021, and was associated with a rapid increase in COVID-19 cases. We aimed to assess clinical severity of individuals infected with Omicron, using S Gene Target...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## Grace T.

Watching Biden's speech.  He was exposed to COVID over the week.  He's coughing and sneezing now.  Presumably he's had a negative covid test this am but the twitter verse is a light in conspiracy theories


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Watching Biden's speech.  He was exposed to COVID over the week.  He's coughing and sneezing now.  Presumably he's had a negative covid test this am but the twitter verse is a light in conspiracy theories


This just blew up the twitter verse over what exactly he meant by this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473386340360278025


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "We can't discuss a cost/benefit analysis because we don't agree on the benefit.  Therefore, you have to shut up and stop complaining and just accept my policies."


You _could_ stop deliberately misrepresenting the positions of those who work in the field.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> This just blew up the twitter verse over what exactly he meant by this
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473386340360278025


He got away!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You _could_ stop deliberately misrepresenting the positions of those who work in the field.


"deliberately"= imputing motives
"misrepresenting" = I don't like your interpretation
"those who work in the field" = the experts I like
"could"= snarky italics for added effect.   Again, illustrating the point that while you complain about ads, you are the king of the subtle put downs.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> the irony that you should label someone a sheep.  What bluff are referring to?  To continue to regurgitate meaningless data for you to analyze is silly and wasteful.  What gambit?  And what smoke?
> 
> Vaccines kinda work?  Early treatment is a thing, mandates are challening - don't really work.
> 
> But you go ahead and stick to your data, shoving a square peg into a round hole.


Where does your data come from?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> "deliberately"= imputing motives
> "misrepresenting" = I don't like your interpretation
> "those who work in the field" = the experts I like
> "could"= snarky italics for added effect.   Again, illustrating the point that while you complain about ads, you are the king of the subtle put downs.


The problem is dad is fighting a war he already lost, but doesn't know it. 

The protections/policies he advocated didnt work. 

More and more people are moving on. Governments are starting to move on. 

The reality is people are waking up to the fact they have to live with the virus and don't want and will not accept much more in the way of restrictions. 

As a math guy one would think he would understand the concept of trends. It is easy to see where the trend is going right now.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of reality and trends....


_NBA commissioner Adam Silver just said the NBA won't be shutting down because, *"The virus will not be eradicated and we have to learn to live with it." *Welcome to the party, pal._


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is another example of moving on. The messaging is starting to change. They are talking about how in just a couple of weeks, CNN has changed their tune on kids, etc. 

It picks up in the video where they talk about it. You only need to watch a few minutes of this.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> What I have argued from the beginning is that we have to live with this. We cannot keep stuff closed, kids out of schools, etc. It is not and never was sustainable.


So, remember when the Borg Collective of trolls (EOTL(now GoldenGate)/TheLongGame/Husker/NotInTheFace/espola) spoke loudly about how children were resilient and we shouldn't worry about closing schools? Could they have possibly been more wrong? I don't think so. You hit the nail on the head. There was a very negative outcome and it was worse for disadvantaged children. Not to mention that those imposing the mandates have lied from the beginning about "protecting the children". They still use those words. They should be banned from Twitter.









						How School Closures Damaged U.S. Children's Mental Health
					

A new study shows the emotional price children paid when schools were forced to shut down in-school learning during the COVID-19 pandemic.




					time.com
				












						Harvard professor: More school closures could exacerbate 'full-on child mental health crisis'
					

Professor argues in the New York Times that more COVID-19 school closings could be detrimental to children's health.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, remember when the Borg Collective of trolls (EOTL(now GoldenGate)/TheLongGame/Husker/NotInTheFace/espola) spoke loudly about how children were resilient and we shouldn't worry about closing schools? Could they have possibly been more wrong? I don't think so. You hit the nail on the head. There was a very negative outcome and it was worse for disadvantaged children. Not to mention that those imposing the mandates have lied from the beginning about "protecting the children". They still use those words. They should be banned from Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How School Closures Damaged U.S. Children's Mental Health
> 
> 
> A new study shows the emotional price children paid when schools were forced to shut down in-school learning during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harvard professor: More school closures could exacerbate 'full-on child mental health crisis'
> 
> 
> Professor argues in the New York Times that more COVID-19 school closings could be detrimental to children's health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


So now we see what “news” sources you prefer to have frame your information.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Where does your data come from?


Be specific, what data is in question?  The data that says vaccines suck and don't stop transmission?  Step outside and you'll get the proof that vaccines aren't as effective as originally touted.  The data that suggests the risk of cardiac adverse events following the second dose of the mRNA vaccine could be around 3.7 times more likely than hospitalization due to COVID-19 in healthy 12-15-year-old boys.  

My position on vaccines has been clear and consistent.  I'm vaccinated and have had a breakthrough infection..good for me.    No gambits, blowing smoke, etc, suggesting I'm making stuff up and lack a grasp of the subject.  A healthy dose of skepticism, reviewing data in VAERs/MedRxiv,  leveraging peer reviewed data provides context and helps in decision making for patient care.  Granted VAERS and MedRxiv aren't promoted as tools to guide clinical practice, and rightfully so.  They still provide plenty of information to form an educated opinion.  Depending on the CDC for treatment guidance  is like depending on a pharmacist to approve a script prescribed by the person who knows the patient.  

Plenty of goofiness going on at places like the CDC and FDA. It's clear that the long term effects of MRNA vaccines on adolescent boys is unknown - only a small # of clinical trials have been conducted.  For the most part, most countries have been very cautious with vaccinating this population.  Our own FDA has been cautious about the youngest demographic.  Let's see how long it take to go from EU  to approved.  

Let's see if the narrative changes as delta transitions to omicron. delta was touted as more severe for kids.  Omicron appears to be the common cold, so far.  Why vaccinate a healthy population in the face of a disease compared to the common cold?  Silliness. If you want the vaccine, go get one.  Wear a mask if you want or if mandated or if it makes you feel better.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So now we see what “news” sources you prefer to have frame your information.


Nice, you cherry picked one of the two.  You need some balance in your life.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Nice, you cherry picked one of the two.  You need some balance in your life.


Hahaha. Trolls gonna troll.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That clip is from Orgazmo by Parker/Stone.  It's about a Mormon Missionary that becomes a stand-in Superhero in porn movies.  Super inappropriate movie but hilarious.


Oh boy, should I take it down?  I had no idea, I promise.  I was Mormon and adopted and that was hard on me as a kid, I won;t lie.  Having those two facts to start grade school is not easy.  Add the fact I had a speech problem it was hard back then to navigate life and I was pissed off inside.  Church two times on Sunday, no caffine, mid week church and then they forced you to go out and preach for two years when you turn 18.  I was not going to go but it was what they wanted me to do.  Two years riding my Bike would have ruined me altogether.  Can you imagine crush riding a bike around Panama? I had a few pals quit after their 2 year preaching tour and now their Jack Mormons or fall always because as soon as they did what their rich parents told them they had to do in order for inheritance, they quit that church altogether.  I was dreading that day when I turned 18 and off to some foreign country preaching the book of Mormon that brother Smith and brother Young founded.  Try doing your family tree with Elder Smith and see where you stand in the grand scheme of things in that faith.  I got out when I was 16.  I love all faiths but that one scared me the most, I wont lie.  I did not ask to be born or put into that church, just saying.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Be specific, what data is in question?  The data that says vaccines suck and don't stop transmission?  Step outside and you'll get the proof that vaccines aren't as effective as originally touted.  The data that suggests the risk of cardiac adverse events following the second dose of the mRNA vaccine could be around 3.7 times more likely than hospitalization due to COVID-19 in healthy 12-15-year-old boys.
> 
> My position on vaccines has been clear and consistent.  I'm vaccinated and have had a breakthrough infection..good for me.    No gambits, blowing smoke, etc, suggesting I'm making stuff up and lack a grasp of the subject.  A healthy dose of skepticism, reviewing data in VAERs/MedRxiv,  leveraging peer reviewed data provides context and helps in decision making for patient care.  Granted VAERS and MedRxiv aren't promoted as tools to guide clinical practice, and rightfully so.  They still provide plenty of information to form an educated opinion.  Depending on the CDC for treatment guidance  is like depending on a pharmacist to approve a script prescribed by the person who knows the patient.
> 
> Plenty of goofiness going on at places like the CDC and FDA. It's clear that the long term effects of MRNA vaccines on adolescent boys is unknown - only a small # of clinical trials have been conducted.  For the most part, most countries have been very cautious with vaccinating this population.  Our own FDA has been cautious about the youngest demographic.  Let's see how long it take to go from EU  to approved.
> 
> Let's see if the narrative changes as delta transitions to omicron. delta was touted as more severe for kids.  Omicron appears to be the common cold, so far.  Why vaccinate a healthy population in the face of a disease compared to the common cold?  Silliness. If you want the vaccine, go get one.  Wear a mask if you want or if mandated or if it makes you feel better.


Watch out for this 5 Gee shit bro.  I gave up smart phone and just going with walkie talkies.  I'm going off grid and out of the city until this gets fixed.  I am hated by so many.  I poke Bears for fun  My wife got family email by one of the outlaw members and they asked if everyone would please take a stupid test before we show up. My wife said were all tested and we will test before we come. I will check my wife out and she will check me out, done, test is over. I cant believe how many fell for this scam. The whole thing is to distract us from the real crimes. Your about to find out what these monsters were planning. Sick fucks!! Look man, I escaped torture bro. They (( The Satanic Cult )) had planed to sacrifice me. It's out of the box and now you know. It's what my adopted mom told me. A dagger was put in my door when I got home from hospital by a true Satanist. These vampires are fucking real, trust me   It's time we shut these evil empires down.  They prey on children dude.  I'm not making this up and does not make me better or worse.  Lucky to escape?  Yes?  Divine protection so I can be a voice?  Hell yes.  I am so crazy and have no parent controlling my life with inheritance and money now.  I know someone right now that if she doesn't get jabbed, no money from dad.  I swear.  This is fucking insane.  No jab, no inheritance now.  Guess what happened?  She told her dad to keep his damn money.  It's so sad what kind of control dad had.  Not no more.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, remember when the Borg Collective of trolls (EOTL(now GoldenGate)/TheLongGame/Husker/NotInTheFace/espola) spoke loudly about how children were resilient and we shouldn't worry about closing schools? Could they have possibly been more wrong? I don't think so. You hit the nail on the head. There was a very negative outcome and it was worse for disadvantaged children. Not to mention that those imposing the mandates have lied from the beginning about "protecting the children". They still use those words. They should be banned from Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How School Closures Damaged U.S. Children's Mental Health
> 
> 
> A new study shows the emotional price children paid when schools were forced to shut down in-school learning during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harvard professor: More school closures could exacerbate 'full-on child mental health crisis'
> 
> 
> Professor argues in the New York Times that more COVID-19 school closings could be detrimental to children's health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Putting words in my mouth now?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Nice, you cherry picked one of the two.  You need some balance in your life.


That collective has zero original thought when it comes to policy/politics - just talking points. Sadly, the current state of the media necessitates seeking multiple sources that have a variety of political perspectives to get any sort of balance.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Putting words in my mouth now?


Not really. 

You have not been against school closures and mask and distance requirements for the kids. 

Why don't you lay out what you are for or against? 

I asked you earlier and you declined. WHy?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Not really.
> 
> You have not been against school closures and mask and distance requirements for the kids.
> 
> Why don't you lay out what you are for or against?
> 
> I asked you earlier and you declined. WHy?


What else have I posted that I don't know about?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Putting words in my mouth now?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Oh boy, should I take it down?  I had no idea, I promise.  I was Mormon and adopted and that was hard on me as a kid, I won;t lie.  Having those two facts to start grade school is not easy.  Add the fact I had a speech problem it was hard back then to navigate life and I was pissed off inside.  Church two times on Sunday, no caffine, mid week church and then they forced you to go out and preach for two years when you turn 18.  I was not going to go but it was what they wanted me to do.  Two years riding my Bike would have ruined me altogether.  Can you imagine crush riding a bike around Panama? I had a few pals quit after their 2 year preaching tour and now their Jack Mormons or fall always because as soon as they did what their rich parents told them they had to do in order for inheritance, they quit that church altogether.  I was dreading that day when I turned 18 and off to some foreign country preaching the book of Mormon that brother Smith and brother Young founded.  Try doing your family tree with Elder Smith and see where you stand in the grand scheme of things in that faith.  I got out when I was 16.  I love all faiths but that one scared me the most, I wont lie.  I did not ask to be born or put into that church, just saying.


No, don't take it down.  It's hilarious.  I just wouldn't show the movie to any Mormon relatives you may have.

Your experience is not unusual.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> What else have I posted that I don't know about?


You sound like Joe Biden's double.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

watfly said:


> No, don't take it down.  It's hilarious.  I just wouldn't show the movie to any Mormon relatives you may have.
> 
> Your experience is not unusual.


I have no Mormon relatives or friends at this time in that church.  I'm just super and I mean super grateful my foster mother allowed me to choose when I turned 16 if I wanted to be a Mormon for life or leave the sect.  See below pic of me getting baptized when I was eligible at 8 years old.  I was bribed with a Bob's Big Boy lunch from my mom and I got baptized.  I was out as fast as I could say goodbye though when I got a chance with freedom of choice on my 16th bday. My mom was sad I got out so quick.  She soon followed though.  BTW, my foster care dad hated God and any church and never went.  Greatest man I ever knew.  So loving and kind.  What man adopts 8 kids with a crazy wife????  He didnt really hate God at the end of his life, he hated that he had to witness his first wife dying giving birth and his baby dd not making it.  Then he got fucking Parkinson's. That fucking disease is shit!!!  He was so angry inside he kept it inside for a long time.  My dad got through it and died with peace and love for God. Now I will share how I sought my revenge.  This is not how I should have been and I totally see my ego at play now.  At the time, I thought I was doing the right thing.  I got all into Billy Graham and listen to his tapes in my pursuit of finding hope on this awful planet we all were forced to be born on.  I got all into Jesus and went straight for the guys on the bikes.  I actually lived on the same street of their church and I went after these guys with the bible.  I wish I had tapes to show you.  I never once got a guy to quit his mission to join the church I was going to at the time. Impossible.  I matured in the faith and stopped chasing JWs and Mormons.  I left them alone and went after pagans instead.  My type of guy....lol!!


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> View attachment 12435


Ahhh, blanket statements...because if you don't get vaccinated, you will die..


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> Ahhh, blanket statements...because if you don't get vaccinated, you will die..


you don’t think this will tip the scales and get those unvaccinated to get the vaccine?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> View attachment 12435


Another stupid one....worse than the other cartoon you posted previously with the Medieval loo:

1. What self-respecting adult wants a lollipop?  Particularly one of those?  The only adults that eat those are the ones that go around in mickey mouse hats at Disneyland without kids and ride the kiddie rides and think Mickey is real.
2. If you wanted more adults to take it up, if you aren't going to give them cash, try at least chocolate...even a Hershey bar would do better. 
3. What's more stunning is the idea that they'd presume some people who are resistant would sell out so cheaply
4. What self-respecting doctor is handing out lollipops to vaccinated adults?
5. The vaccines don't apparently (even if you get 3 of them) stop us from getting sick (particularly in the age of omicron).
6. If you are 30 or under....particularly if you are a child that would like the stupid lollipop...unless you are severely immunocompromised you are not going to die.  The vaccine isn't doing it for you.
7. If you are such a child or immunocompromised person, way to rub it in their faces that they are going to die (quite possibly even if they get the vaccine)....that's nasty.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Nice, you cherry picked one of the two.  You need some balance in your life.


So I am now somehow at fault for your choices? Typical


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Another stupid one....worse than the other cartoon you posted previously with the Medieval loo:
> 
> 1. What self-respecting adult wants a lollipop?  Particularly one of those?  The only adults that eat those are the ones that go around in mickey mouse hats at Disneyland without kids and ride the kiddie rides and think Mickey is real.
> 2. If you wanted more adults to take it up, if you aren't going to give them cash, try at least chocolate...even a Hershey bar would do better.
> 3. What's more stunning is the idea that they'd presume some people who are resistant would sell out so cheaply
> 4. What self-respecting doctor is handing out lollipops to vaccinated adults?
> 5. The vaccines don't apparently (even if you get 3 of them) stop us from getting sick (particularly in the age of omicron).
> 6. If you are 30 or under....particularly if you are a child that would like the stupid lollipop...unless you are severely immunocompromised you are not going to die.  The vaccine isn't doing it for you.
> 7. If you are such a child or immunocompromised person, way to rub it in their faces that they are going to die (quite possibly even if they get the vaccine)....that's nasty.


I bet Espola loves t now.  t got his booster and thinks it's the tone as to how get people to take shot.  Hey Mr. T, I will NEVER take a shot.  I'm happy for you and Espola are now two peas and a pod.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Another stupid one....worse than the other cartoon you posted previously with the Medieval loo:
> 
> 1. What self-respecting adult wants a lollipop?  Particularly one of those?  The only adults that eat those are the ones that go around in mickey mouse hats at Disneyland without kids and ride the kiddie rides and think Mickey is real.
> 2. If you wanted more adults to take it up, if you aren't going to give them cash, try at least chocolate...even a Hershey bar would do better.
> 3. What's more stunning is the idea that they'd presume some people who are resistant would sell out so cheaply
> 4. What self-respecting doctor is handing out lollipops to vaccinated adults?
> 5. The vaccines don't apparently (even if you get 3 of them) stop us from getting sick (particularly in the age of omicron).
> 6. If you are 30 or under....particularly if you are a child that would like the stupid lollipop...unless you are severely immunocompromised you are not going to die.  The vaccine isn't doing it for you.
> 7. If you are such a child or immunocompromised person, way to rub it in their faces that they are going to die (quite possibly even if they get the vaccine)....that's nasty.


You didn't get a lollipop?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> you don’t think this will tip the scales and get those unvaccinated to get the vaccine?


Non-factual opinion here -- at this point, the unvaccinated are dedicated to that condition as a moral cause and nothing will sway them.  All that is left is to mock them.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Non-factual opinion here -- at this point,* the unvaccinated* are dedicated to that condition as a moral cause and nothing will sway them.  All that is left is to* mock them.*


The Great Separation is now upon us.  The unvaccinated ((unclean)) vs Vaccinated ((Clean)).  Mock Mock?  WHO is at my door?


----------



## Grace T.

So we've moved beyond the argument that vaccines stop community spread and are now back to it saves your life.

The problem with that is that we don't force people to stop smoking, we don't throw homeless drug addicts into psych wards for their own good, we don't force people who are overweight to exercise under government supervisors, we don't monitor strictly (or even restrict government payments for) the food diabetics are permitted to eat, we don't stop people from engaging in extreme sports or very hazardous ones like football skiing and even soccer.

What's more is we allow people to make much more serious and monumental choices that have severe repercussions on others including the bad health decisions, throwing money away on drugs and alcohols instead of supporting their families, having children and voting.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473383296348434437


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> So we've moved beyond the argument that vaccines stop community spread and are now back to it saves your life.
> 
> The problem with that is that we don't force people to stop smoking, we don't throw homeless drug addicts into psych wards for their own good, we don't force people who are overweight to exercise under government supervisors, we don't monitor strictly (or even restrict government payments for) the food diabetics are permitted to eat, we don't stop people from engaging in extreme sports or very hazardous ones like football skiing and even soccer.
> 
> What's more is we allow people to make much more serious and monumental choices that have severe repercussions on others including the bad health decisions, throwing money away on drugs and alcohols instead of supporting their families, having children and voting.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473383296348434437


Back to?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Non-factual opinion here -- at this point, the unvaccinated are dedicated to that condition as a moral cause and nothing will sway them.  All that is left is to mock them.


maybe moral cause isn’t the driving factor

Maybe some people are making risk assessments or maybe people have much bigger concerns in their lives than Covid 


Zip code 90002, for example, in the Watts area of Los Angeles had about 51% of its total population fully vaccinated as of November 2.

It's an area that's 18% Black and about 80% Latino, according to data from the U.S. Census. Also, nearly a third of people in this zip code live below the poverty line.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> maybe moral cause isn’t the driving factor
> 
> Maybe some people are making risk assessments or maybe people have much bigger concerns in their lives than Covid
> 
> 
> Zip code 90002, for example, in the Watts area of Los Angeles had about 51% of its total population fully vaccinated as of November 2.
> 
> It's an area that's 18% Black and about 80% Latino, according to data from the U.S. Census. Also, nearly a third of people in this zip code live below the poverty line.


The population has good historical reason snot to trust (and in some cases, not to go on record with) any government program.  

What's your excuse?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> The population has good historical reason snot to trust (and in some cases, not to go on record with) any government program.
> 
> What's your excuse?


my excuse for what?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> So we've moved beyond the argument that vaccines stop community spread and are now back to it saves your life.
> 
> The problem with that is that we don't force people to stop smoking, we don't throw homeless drug addicts into psych wards for their own good, we don't force people who are overweight to exercise under government supervisors, we don't monitor strictly (or even restrict government payments for) the food diabetics are permitted to eat, we don't stop people from engaging in extreme sports or very hazardous ones like football skiing and even soccer.
> 
> What's more is we allow people to make much more serious and monumental choices that have severe repercussions on others including the bad health decisions, throwing money away on drugs and alcohols instead of supporting their families, having children and voting.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473383296348434437


"I'm here to save your life."  Oh really?  Did you see t's statement just now?  I would think Espola and Mr. Husler would be singing his praise now and say, "He's starting to be my kind of canidate.  I might vote for t and Liz as VP."  I have a nut for a friend who is way fringe and has always had some crazy ass thoughts about t and his treu motives.  Right now, he texted me, "See, I told you he was the anti-christ."  I kid you not.  All for saying he got a booster.  Another church guy said he really think the jab is the mark of the beast.  I dont think so but it's weird to go through this right now.  I think t is trying to win over some last hold outs who needed t and Mr. Bill O'Reiley to go on the record and say they got a booster and under pressure told us to get a booster.  I'm convinced at this stage of the game of mind control is that those who will never get a jab still won't, no matter what Lord Cyrus has to say or Bill O'Reiley and Sean Hannity.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So I am now somehow at fault for your choices? Typical


my choices?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Non-factual opinion here -- at this point, the unvaccinated are dedicated to that condition as a moral cause and nothing will sway them.  All that is left is to mock them.


Another interesting take.  All that is left is for the unvaccinated to contract the omicron variant and laugh all the way to the bank.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> *The population has good historical reason snot to trust (and in some cases, not to go on record with) any government program. *
> 
> What's your excuse?


So they need to be mocked?  And you are right, they (and many other zip codes across the country) have good reason or at least have been conditioned to avoid anything government.


----------



## crush

Coronavirus 10: The Omnicron (Official Movie Trailer)
					

Rated R for Retard  Coming Soon to a theater for you, the scare event of a lifetime! You thought the cooked data and repurposed deaths of the original Covid 19 were bad, The Omnicron will make you want to sell your house and become homeless since t…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*Bill Gates has canceled most of his holiday plans due to omicron*
*Microsoft founder says 'we could be entering the worst part of the pandemic'*

To Norm, 
"Just when it seemed like life would return to *normal*, we could be entering the worst part of the pandemic," Gates began in a Twitter thread. *"Omicron will hit home for all of us*. Close friends of mine now have it, and* I’ve canceled most of my holiday plans."*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

I find it interesting that the group of people, ‘conservatives’, that were so pro-establishment for decades and railed against people like hippies and other outlier groups have now full embraced the core message of many of those groups. Even to the point of becoming violent against the government a la the weather underground or SDS.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> my choices?


Must I explain everything to you? I feel that talking down to posters in here, unless they have proved deserving, is disrespectful. I’m trying to address you as a thinking adult. My meaning was blatantly obvious and literal.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *I find it interesting that the group of people, ‘conservatives’,* that were so pro-establishment for decades and railed against people like hippies and other outlier groups have now full embraced the core message of many of those groups. Even to the point of becoming violent against the government a la the weather underground or SDS.


Merry Christmas Husler.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Must I explain everything to you? I feel that talking down to posters in here, unless they have proved deserving, is disrespectful. I’m trying to address you as a thinking adult. My meaning was blatantly obvious and literal.


Merry Christmas from a conservative and a critical thinker that will NEVER take the jab.  You have become the biggest liar and cheater ever on this forum.  You support ruining lives of conservative.  You and your pal Espola.  Seriously, you have become POD!!!!


----------



## crush

Gee "GG" and Espola and The Husler, no one is showing up for their free Christmas booster.  Shall we go round up those conservatives and force them to take shots?  You and Mr. Trump are now both chumps.  Hahahahahah.  You and him are now the same.  How do you feel now?  Cyrus is now in charge and you better go listen to what he tells you to do, like get your shots dummy and boosters.  Trump say's so you better obey him.  Lol!!!  Seriously, you are now obeying t.  He told you to get the vax and booster and you obeyed like a good little liberal.  BTW, the liberals I hang out with are very much like me and will NEVER take a shot, ever!!  Loser and cheater you are and your pals.  Pathetic little boys u r!!









						Vaccination center in Manchester - No One's Showing Up
					

⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0  MIRRORED FROM: XANDREWX: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/xandrewx/  INVITE https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0    …




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

I took some time to look at the stars early this morning and asked my God to please intervene asap.  Please watch this video.  It's only 2+ minutes.  It's not funny and the music lyrics are written to make a very strong point.  I love you guys, even my enemies who hate me today more then ever.  I'm just getting started.  This is fucking getting not funny anymore.  Norm and Frank, we need you now!!!  I will poke the Bears until I die.  









						Spacebusters: It's beginning to look a lot like...
					

⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0 ⚠️COMMENTS TEMPORARILY CLOSED ON BITCHUTE DUE TO SPAM ABUSE ⚠️  MIRROR SOURCE: Spacebusters: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/spacebusters/ https://ww…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Durham - Stealth Bomber - EyeDropMedia
					

#Durham - He has it all. The Stealth Bomber - The Real Life Columbo. #EyeDropMedia #DurhamReport  Please support my work and maybe buy me a beer... this one took 12 days of work. Thanks. https://www.buymeacoffee.com/EyeDropMedia




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Listen very carefully to what the WHO Chief just said about the booster for kids.  Look everyone, the gig is up.  They are telling you and me straight up what is going to happen.  Winter of Death!!!

https://www.bitchute.com/video/hiujJqIquuCY/

Joe also said they put together the biggest fraud ever on the Nov 3rd election.  They got Ray to go undercover and attack the capitol on Jan 6th.  This is all after the plandemic, riots and then the big heist.  Let's just stop acting as if one side is playing fair, not cheating and not lying.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> ion are posting in here?
> So they need to be mocked?  And you are right, they (and many other zip codes across the country) have good reason or at least have been conditioned to avoid anything government.


How many of that population are posting in this thread?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> How many of that population are posting in this thread?


How many?


----------



## crush

Breaking News and the kind of news my Doctor already told me last year and why I have zero fear from the fearbaters.  I got IT Jan 20th, 2020 and now I'm protected for life.  I love *evidence* and facts.  My blood is pure and I feel awesome and so connected to God today.  Seriously, I feel super charged by the source or some say, 'The Boss."  I pumped with so much energy.  Magnetism is real and boy I'm on it.  Talk about a pure shot of magnets from God 24/7.  You guys can have the boosters.  I have No Fear and just can;t wait to crush the competition   You have no idea!!!!!

"If you’ve had COVID-19, even a mild case, *major congratulations* to you as you’ve more than *likely got long-term immunity*, according to a team of researchers from Washington University School of Medicine. In fact, you’re likely to be *immune for life*, as is the case with recovery from many infectious agents — once you’ve had the disease and recovered, you’re immune, *most likely for life.*

The* evidence is strong and promising*, and should be welcome and comforting news to a public that has spent the last year, 2020, in a panic over SARS-CoV-2.

*Increasingly evidence is showing that long-lasting immunity exists."*


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Must I explain everything to you? I feel that talking down to posters in here, unless they have proved deserving, is disrespectful. I’m trying to address you as a thinking adult. My meaning was blatantly obvious and literal.


??


----------



## crush

@ the .43-.44 second it will show the all seeing ______________. Trip out dudes.  Corona + Delta + Omicron is the all seeing  ______________________ logo, that the Free ________________ worship and use as a symbol, among hundreds of other signs they use.  The one _________________ monster is what they worship and they use money to influence ((buy, bribe and blackmail)) to get what they want so they can build back better cheating.  Our world of people have to decide as individuals.  They sure love the #33.  That is the highest level.


----------



## crush

Grace T, what is your Grape Vine and rumor Mill telling you abou the big presser at 10:40am?  I heard some bad news but it's just a rumor from my pal.  This could make people go nuts!!!  I hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

*Governor Newsom to Announce New State Actions to Protect Californians Amid Growing Threat of Omicron Variant*

Governor Gavin Newsom will visit a COVID-19 vaccine and testing clinic in Alameda County tomorrow to discuss new state actions to protect Californians amid increasing COVID-19 case rates and hospitalizations, including requiring boosters for health care workers.

*California has put more shots in arms than any other state* – administering more than* 64 million doses* of COVID-19 vaccine – and announced first-in-the-nation vaccine measures, including *requiring* that workers in health care settings *be fully vaccinated*, adding the COVID-19 vaccine to the list of vaccinations* required to attend school in-person when fully authorized *for applicable grade spans, and implementing a standard that all school staff and all state workers either *show proof of full vaccination *or be tested at least once per week.

*WHEN:* Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at approx. 10:40 a.m.


----------



## crush

Miracle News!!!

*US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say*

"Unlike existing vaccines, Walter Reed’s SpFN uses a *soccer ball-shaped* protein with 24 faces for its vaccine, which allows scientists to attach the spikes of multiple coronavirus strains on different faces of the protein."


----------



## crush

Thank God HRC lost to t!!!  These same people are pissed off at me for no jab.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Miracle News!!!
> 
> *US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say*
> 
> "Unlike existing vaccines, Walter Reed’s SpFN uses a *soccer ball-shaped* protein with 24 faces for its vaccine, which allows scientists to attach the spikes of multiple coronavirus strains on different faces of the protein."
> 
> View attachment 12451


Yes, and it sounds legit.  Even better the US gov would own the patent so it could technically give it away.  The issue is phase 2 and 3 trials still have to go to make sure it's safe and works.  They haven't even recruited a company yet to do the testing.  So it won't help us with the current pandemic (since the omicron will have long worked its way through both the north and southern hemispheres long before then).

Heard nothing re California.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You left out “and a culture of public service which requires every young adult to spend two years of their life working for the benefit of others.”
> 
> You and I may not agree with the form that service takes, but it is one of the major differences between LA and Salt Lake.


Wait, we are now supposed to consider the difference in culture between SLC and LA when a model fails? Previously, you stated that the US needs to do a better job with something very close to "we need to be more Asian". So, that also means culture should be incorporated in the policies (and models) or you end up failing because you aren't "Asian" or "Mormon" enough. Again, this IS the condition of our "culture" in the US. Our very foundation was on the basis of individual freedom that was well beyond what was present in Europe at the time and unlike anything in the Asian countries that you say we should be more like. We intentionally decentralized power and still have the same conditions of states' rights. It is nice to see you coming around, even if it is just a convenient way to explain the failures of the models and your preferred policies.


----------



## crush

Day 2 of the Winter of Death

*COVID Christmas: Officials advise masks at home, canceling gatherings, shunning unvaxxed*
*State and city governments concerned as cases of omicron variant spike nationwide*


Lord Bill Gates cancelled his "holiday parties" so they shall all follow their leader.  It's a trip who really holds the decisions in this country.  Anyway, my find friends from north in LA thinks everyone should do this for Christmas.  I loved LA.....

County of* Los Angeles* "The safest option is to gather in-person* only with members of your household *and to *celebrate virtually *with other family and friends," Los Angeles County said in its winter holiday guidance. The county is also telling people to *avoid singing indoors,* "wear a mask when gathering indoors" and to *set tables grouping only people from the same household.   

Louisiana's *government issued similar guidance, telling people to "mask indoors when not with your everyday household."  

*D.C.*, Mayor Muriel Bowser recommended the same, telling people to "wear masks indoors, even at small gatherings."  

*Chicago* says that "[f]ully vaccinated people can gather indoors with others who have been fully vaccinated without restrictions" while the unvaccinated "should consider not attending gatherings over the holidays."  

*Philadelphia* Health Commissioner Cheryl Bettigole said nobody should be gathering for Christmas, regardless of vaccination status. 

"Please do not hold or attend holiday parties indoors, it's just too dangerous," she said. 

*Pennsylvania*, was just as stern. 

"Limit in-person holiday gatherings to only people you live with or limit to a small group of individuals with whom you are regularly in contact," its newest guidance says.

The *White House is *warning that unvaccinated Americans are "looking at a winter of severe illness and death." And some cities and Espola and The Husler are *urging vaccinated people to shun *gathering* with the unvaccinated altogether.

Any other cities?  *


----------



## Grace T.

Finally.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473702712927825928


----------



## crush

Look into the eys of this man.  What do you see?  I call this Eye Gazing.  His last quote was, "We could be entering the worse part of the pandemic."  Jeffrey Epsteins last known words was a message back to Bill.  Bill was desperately trying to get a hold of Jeff but Jeff was busy making a deal with t.  He told Bill to F off......

Bill Gates has been trying to close the vaccine gap,* noting that far fewer people in low-income countries have received a Covid-19 vaccines*. 
"People are right to be *upset about the inequity here*," Gates wrote. *"Vaccines make Covid-19 a largely preventable disease* -- and a survivable one in all but the rarest cases -- and it is heartbreaking to know that people are dying of a disease not because it can't be stopped but because they live in a low-income country."  This guy is full of you know what.  Vaccines make people sick and then some are dying.  I watch with my eyes.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I guess the folks are not running to be first in line for the boosters.  Now they have to go for "Free Boobs for Boosters!!!!"  That's right men and woman who like to see some boobies.  Basically, in parts of Euro you can get a free boob show at strip joint, if you show proof of booster.  Keep in mine, these same dudes already got free lap dances for the first and second jabs and if they wear a mask, they get a free drink on the house.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Finally.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473702712927825928


I wonder what availability will be like.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> I guess the folks are not running to be first in line for the boosters.  Now they have to go for "Free Boobs for Boosters!!!!"  That's right men and woman who like to see some boobies.  Basically, in parts of Euro you can get a free boob show at strip joint, if you show proof of booster.  Keep in mine, these same dudes already got free lap dances for the first and second jabs and if they wear a mask, they get a free drink on the house.
> 
> View attachment 12455


Is this what happens when a lollipop or pizza isn't enough incentive?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wait, we are now supposed to consider the difference in culture between SLC and LA when a model fails? Previously, you stated that the US needs to do a better job with something very close to "we need to be more Asian". So, that also means culture should be incorporated in the policies (and models) or you end up failing because you aren't "Asian" or "Mormon" enough. Again, this IS the condition of our "culture" in the US. Our very foundation was on the basis of individual freedom that was well beyond what was present in Europe at the time and unlike anything in the Asian countries that you say we should be more like. We intentionally decentralized power and still have the same conditions of states' rights. It is nice to see you coming around, even if it is just a convenient way to explain the failures of the models and your preferred policies.


Fails?


----------



## crush

Stew Peters is saying National Data Base for the Vaxx.  Thoughts?


kickingandscreaming said:


> Is this what happens when a lollipop or pizza isn't enough incentive?


Free things first.  Then they will get tough on us hold outs and then fire anyone for not being "fully boostard,"  That will leave only a few places and people still having a job making money in this scheme.  My pal told me his schools is losing customers every day.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Thank God HRC lost to t!!!  These same people are pissed off at me for no jab.


Seems that this is a PSA for overcoming bad cosmetic surgery?


----------



## Brav520

Triple-Vaccinated More Than FOUR Times As Likely to Test Positive For Omicron Than Unvaccinated, Data Shows
					

According to early data published on Tuesday by the ONS, the triple-vaccinated are 4.5 times as likely to test positive




					dailysceptic.org


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Triple-Vaccinated More Than FOUR Times As Likely to Test Positive For Omicron Than Unvaccinated, Data Shows
> 
> 
> According to early data published on Tuesday by the ONS, the triple-vaccinated are 4.5 times as likely to test positive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dailysceptic.org


You'd expect this given that we know there will be mass breakthroughs of the omicron.  There's just a bigger pool of the vaccinated v. the unvaccinated and the unvaccinated are still catching delta (which the triple vaxxed are not as much).  It means evolution is working


----------



## Desert Hound

It is still early....but so far deaths are not moving along with cases.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> You'd expect this given that we know there will be mass breakthroughs of the omicron.  There's just a bigger pool of the vaccinated v. the unvaccinated and the unvaccinated are still catching delta (which the triple vaxxed are not as much).  It means evolution is working


I'll also note that testing positive < number of cases - maybe much less if omicron is truly "milder". Further, I'd guess many that aren't vaccinated also don't get tested unless the symptoms are significant whereas vaccinated folks are more likely to test as soon as they have any symptoms - and some even when they don't have symptoms since that appears to be a "symptom" .


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> It is still early....but so far deaths are not moving along with cases.
> 
> View attachment 12460


This is great news. If there was this much information about omicron and the news was bad, it would be front-page headlines right under Biden's "winter of death" quote. Let's hope the trend continues.


----------



## crush

"Let's not run the 90 yard dash.  The data is overwhelming and clear. The evidence is in.  Two doses=Great.  The booster= The Game Changer."


----------



## crush




----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I will take that as a "yes" that they're dead in the water.


This did not age well.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> This did not age well.


Sure didn't, we will see what ultimately happens, but I'm less optimistic that it will be blocked.  At least the court has blocked the SDUSD mandate...to be continued.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

So in the past week two trumpies in my circle have died in similar fashion. Started developing a cough, refused a test or even seeing a doctor. Finally their better half insisted and they died. One on the way (hard on the driver) the other 15 minutes after starting admission. Close friends sister in law, she was mid 50’s. The other my dentists brother 62. Both a victim of politics over health.
I care about people more than politics, do you?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> So in the past week two trumpies in my circle have died in similar fashion. Started developing a cough,* refused a test or even seeing a doctor.* Finally their better half insisted and they died. One on the way (hard on the driver) the other 15 minutes after starting admission. Close friends sister in law, she was mid 50’s. The other my dentists brother 62. Both a victim of politics over health.
> I care about people more than politics, do you?


JW?  I feel your empathy toward the trumpies.  Man, you are a twisted man and the stories you make up are sick.  You have no trumps in your circle. What a load of shit.


----------



## Brav520

What are trumpies?


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> What are trumpies?


I'm assuming those that don't follow Trump's guidance to get vaccinated and boostered.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> I'm assuming those that don't follow Trump's guidance to get vaccinated and boostered.


maybe they did , but didn’t take the extra layer of protection which is putting your pronouns in your bio and taking selfies of yourself getting vaccinated?


----------



## crush

Lord Cyrus and Sleepy Joe are now together.  Time to bring the country together.  Merry Christmas everyone


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> JW?  I feel your empathy toward the trumpies.  Man, you are a twisted man and the stories you make up are sick.  You have no trumps in your circle. What a load of shit.


Do you actually believe any of what he says? Hahaha! No way. He's just a troll without an original thought in his head.


----------



## Grace T.

Most of these "got me sick" law suits don't ever go anywhere because it's hard to prove you caught COVID or any other illness from a particular person or at work (and not say on the bus on the way to work).  If this case goes forward, it will be a nightmare for employers for everything from the flu to RSV and for schools as well.  Also would be a recipe for permanent masking in the workplace.  It is a narrow decision on whether to go forward in a workers comp lawsuit or general court, but still.......









						Employer must face worker's lawsuit over husband's Covid death — California court
					

A California candymaker must face a lawsuit by an employee who says she caught Covid-19 at work and gave it to her husband, resulting in his death.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Grace T.

California's cases are rising, led by the cesspole that is Los Angeles.  Interestingly, despite vaxx rate and masks and generally behaving more like Asia, San Francisco rising rapidly too (we'll see if it peaks earlier)










						California Omicron surge arrives as cases spike, officials warn of tough weeks ahead
					

'Within the next two weeks, it's almost all going to be Omicron,' says Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear the OSHA mandate and health care worker mandate cases in early January.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'll also note that testing positive < number of cases - maybe much less if omicron is truly "milder". Further, I'd guess many that aren't vaccinated also don't get tested unless the symptoms are significant whereas vaccinated folks are more likely to test as soon as they have any symptoms - and some even when they don't have symptoms since that appears to be a "symptom" .


Using hospitalizations as a proxy, from the SA study I posted earlier, it appears among the vaxxed hospitalizations are about 80% lower than with the Delta....unvaxxed about 20%-45% (depending on if you screen out prior natural immunity).


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Most of these "got me sick" law suits don't ever go anywhere because it's hard to prove you caught COVID or any other illness from a particular person or at work (and not say on the bus on the way to work).  If this case goes forward, it will be a nightmare for employers for everything from the flu to RSV and for schools as well.  Also would be a recipe for permanent masking in the workplace.  It is a narrow decision on whether to go forward in a workers comp lawsuit or general court, but still.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Employer must face worker's lawsuit over husband's Covid death — California court
> 
> 
> A California candymaker must face a lawsuit by an employee who says she caught Covid-19 at work and gave it to her husband, resulting in his death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Yup!!  My buddy sold his business because he saw this coming.  Boss made me come in and now I have Covid.  I felt forced to take jab to keep my job but now I paralyzed on my left side.  Another employee will complain of chest pains and it's the boss is fault for making him take booster.  This is just getting started and it's nasty.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear the OSHA mandate and health care worker mandate cases in early January.


It will be moot, but they won’t admit it.  Omicron will have peaked before SCOTUS releases a ruling.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> It will be moot, but they won’t admit it.  Omicron will have peaked before SCOTUS releases a ruling.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


>



Everytime I see that lying greasy haired criminal I'm reminded of the
morlocks.


----------



## Brav520

thirteenknots said:


> Everytime I see that lying greasy haired criminal I'm reminded of the
> morlocks.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12466




He is Patrick Bateman


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> He is Patrick Bateman


----------



## thirteenknots

Brav520 said:


> He is Patrick Bateman


I had to look that up.....Bingo !


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Using hospitalizations as a proxy, from the SA study I posted earlier, it appears among the vaxxed hospitalizations are about 80% lower than with the Delta....unvaxxed about 20%-45% (depending on if you screen out prior natural immunity).


More good news.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> California's cases are rising, led by the cesspole that is Los Angeles.  Interestingly, despite vaxx rate and masks and generally behaving more like Asia, San Francisco rising rapidly too (we'll see if it peaks earlier)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Omicron surge arrives as cases spike, officials warn of tough weeks ahead
> 
> 
> 'Within the next two weeks, it's almost all going to be Omicron,' says Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Those damn San Franciscans need to be more like the Mormons in SLC.

It would be interesting to know how "symptomatic" those that are vaccinated are before they get the test in SF. In Silicon Valley / SF you are basically at the epicenter of future Howard Hughes'. Is there anything that indicates certain areas are testing at a higher rate relative to the rest of the country? I know of companies that require weekly tests in the area. I'm guessing that might not be the case in many other areas of the country.  I suppose the positivity rate would give some indication.


----------



## Desert Hound

The following is coming out 

Shows how gov wanted to kill off other scientists. Disturbing is an understatement. They had rather well known scientists issue the Great Barrington Declaration and so had to find a way to paint these people as fringe.

Total corruption. 

--

In public, Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins urge Americans to “follow the science.” In private, the two sainted public-health officials schemed to quash dissenting views from top scientists. That’s the troubling but fair conclusion from emails obtained recently via the Freedom of Information Act by the American Institute for Economic Research.

The tale unfolded in October 2020 after the launch of the Great Barrington Declaration, a statement by Harvard’s Martin Kulldorff, Oxford’s Sunetra Gupta and Stanford’s Jay Bhattacharya against blanket pandemic lockdowns. They favored a policy of what they called “focused protection” of high-risk populations such as the elderly or those with medical conditions. Thousands of scientists signed the declaration—if they were able to learn about it. We tried to give it some elevation on these pages.

That didn’t please the lockdown consensus enforced by public-health officials and the press. Dr. Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health until Sunday, sent an email on Oct. 8, 2020, to Dr. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.


----------



## Desert Hound

“This proposal from the three fringe epidemiologists . . . seems to be getting a lot of attention – and even a co-signature from Nobel Prize winner Mike Leavitt at Stanford. There needs to be a quick and devastating published take down of its premises,” Dr. Collins wrote. “Is it underway?”

These researchers weren’t fringe and neither was their opposition to quarantining society. But in the panic over the virus, these two voices of science used their authority to stigmatize dissenters and crush debate. A week after his email, Dr. Collins spoke to the Washington Post about the Great Barrington Declaration. “This is a fringe component of epidemiology,” he said. “This is not mainstream science. It’s dangerous.” His message spread and the alternative strategy was dismissed in most precincts.

Dr. Fauci replied to Dr. Collins that the takedown was underway. An article in Wired, a tech-news site, denied there was any scientific divide and argued lockdowns were a straw man—they weren’t coming back. If only it were true. The next month cases rose and restrictions returned.

Dr. Fauci also emailed an article from the Nation, a left-wing magazine, and his staff sent him several more. The emails suggest a feedback loop: The media cited Dr. Fauci as an unquestionable authority, and Dr. Fauci got his talking points from the media. Facebook censored mentions of the Great Barrington Declaration. This is how groupthink works.


----------



## Desert Hound

On CBS last month, Dr. Fauci said Republicans who criticize him are “really criticizing science, because I represent science. That’s dangerous.” He isn’t “science.” And it’s also dangerous for scientific officials to mobilize to quash dissent, without which it’s easy to make tragic mistakes. A scientific debate over pandemic policy was and still is in the public interest, especially during a once-in-a-century plague.

Focused protection of nursing homes and other high-risk populations remains the policy road not taken during the pandemic. Perhaps this strategy wouldn’t have prevailed if a debate had been allowed. But it isn’t enough to repeat, as Dr. Collins did on Fox News Sunday, that advocates are “fringe epidemiologists who really did not have the credentials,” and that “hundreds of thousands of people would have died if we had followed that strategy.”

More than 800,000 Americans have died as much of the country followed the strategy of Drs. Collins and Fauci, and that’s not counting the other costs in lost livelihoods, shuttered businesses, untreated illnesses, mental illness from isolation, and the incalculable anguish of seeing loved ones die alone without the chance for a family to say good-bye.

Rather than try to manipulate public opinion, the job of health officials is to offer their best scientific advice. They shouldn’t act like politicians or censors, and when they do, they squander the public’s trust.









						Opinion | How Fauci and Collins Shut Down Covid Debate
					

They worked with the media to trash the Great Barrington Declaration.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way for as much dad pats himself on the back about the bay area vs so cal, the results are not much different.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way for as much dad pats himself on the back about the bay area vs so cal, the results are not much different.

So with all their extra precautions cases are about the same.

Deaths? Different. But that is related to health of population, demographics, etc.

But note...and this is important, their policies have lead to about the same amount of cases vs so cal. And further note dad will tell you so cal compared to the bay area is doing it the wrong way.

Look at the charts above. 

Bars? Restaurants?

Dad your excuse to explain this away?


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> By the way for as much dad pats himself on the back about the bay area vs so cal, the results are not much different.
> 
> So with all their extra precautions cases are about the same.
> 
> Deaths? Different. But that is related to health of population, demographics, etc.
> 
> But note...and this is important, their policies have lead to about the same amount of cases vs so cal. And further note dad will tell you so cal compared to the bay area is doing it the wrong way.
> 
> Look at the charts above.
> 
> Bars? Restaurants?
> 
> Dad your excuse to explain this away?


So Bay area far stricter vs So Cal. 

And dad has been talking up less deaths in their area as proof they are doing it right.

And yet as the data shows cases per 100k are very similar.

In other words the policies in the bay area didn't produce less cases vs the more open la county.

Dad?

Interesting no?


----------



## dad4

Not much to explain.

The guy who made these graphs for you trimmed off the part where they differ.  That's why it starts in July 2021 instead of March 2020.  

If you look at deaths per Capita, the two are not at all similar.  

SF has 77 deaths per 100K
LA has 274 deaths per 100K (3.5X as high)

Why do you bother posting this garbage?  Did you actually think it was a strong argument?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I'm assuming those that don't follow Trump's guidance to get vaccinated and boostered.


Which his followers boo him over....


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Which his followers boo him over....


I suppose they all needed to be loyal sheep like Fauci’s followers?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I suppose they all needed to be loyal sheep like Fauci’s followers?


Interesting perspective, but please continue.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Interesting perspective, but please continue.


They are so spiteful of Fauci and the way he let trump come off like a fool. Of course trump did that all on his own.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> They are so spiteful of Fauci and the way he let* trump* come off like a fool. Of course trump did that all on his own.


PTTS!


----------



## crush

Hey Husler, watch Candace interview t.  t is so much like you and Espola.  Seriously, I will never trust t or Joe or any of these folks.  You and chumpie pal trumpie are now one.  He saved you with war speed.  Now go sit on your booster and take your shots with Lord Cyrus.  What a fool you become.  Plus, Liz and t are now besties.  I can say without a doubt when the military comes out with their miracle shot, folks like me will be forced to take shot or live in a camp.  I already knew this dumb dumb.  Now, you and trump are pals.









						Can anyone spell: YOU WERE DUPED
					

Incredible, just Incredible. These farrago of lies and betrayal should evaporate any last vestige of hope anyone had in this man. It's official. He was a Judas Goat all along.  I'll let you in on a secret. Rothschild affiliated banks protected him f…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

I woke this morning from a gnarly dream you guys.  I was running away from psychopaths looking to kill me like this dude.  These same assholes in todays real life tried to sacrifice me at birth.  They just dress nicer then before and have degrees that allow then to kill babies and get people fired for not obeying the Grand Master Lord.  Then a group of nuts tried to kidnap me when I was 5.  Dagger in my door at birth and life is a box of chocolates. I will seek my revenge if allowed to at the right time or allow my God do all judgement.  I might be just a little emotional to hand out a righteous sentence to all the liars, cheaters and killers.  Timing is everything.  I have it all!!  Docs and coaches with spears trying to catch me so I STFU.....lol!!! Espola was the tribal Elder in my dream that sentence me to death but is so sick he offered me a chance to run for my life as "GG" and The Husler hunted me down.  "GG" and The Husler are the children of Espola in my dream and they tried to catch me but met their fate like the stupid dummies they are....lol.  I won at the end like this stud because I never quit and always find a way to land on my feet and God is with me 100%.  He brought me here you guys.  I did not bring myself to place of liars & cheaters.  I have more 9 lives then anyone I know.  I was born to run.....


----------



## crush

Hey Husler, Pastor Dan has been taught a lesson and is now together with you & Espola.  Praise The Lord.  It's so nice to see Pastor repenting.  He was scared to die.  I see how this is going.  Oh boy, this is going to get insane.  I will live in cave I guess.  Military has produced, "The Shot" heard around the world.


----------



## crush

Hey Tony, you are an idiot.  This is insane.  Tony, Trump, Espola and The Husler are all together.  Desperate sales people.  Get your boosters!!!









						Bullsh!tter Blair: 'Frankly If You're Not Vaxxinated You're An Idiot'
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

BTW everyone, I have been warned by some nut to stop posting my satire and shit on here or trouble will come my way.  This is what happens when you poke fucking bears.  I will keep you posted if I need to stop posting. I getting advice.  In the last 4 some years, I have been threaten not to go the fields.  "they" know where I live. I was told by a Doc that I better SFU or else.  Another Doc said the same shit to me.  Now the Docs want me jabbed.  It's my guess I have to leave for good because the lawyers can make my life a living hell.  That's what some of them like to do.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Not much to explain.
> 
> The guy who made these graphs for you trimmed off the part where they differ.  That's why it starts in July 2021 instead of March 2020.
> 
> If you look at deaths per Capita, the two are not at all similar.
> 
> SF has 77 deaths per 100K
> LA has 274 deaths per 100K (3.5X as high)
> 
> Why do you bother posting this garbage?  Did you actually think it was a strong argument?


The graphs are during the delta wave. The bay area was and is far more restrictive vs So Cal. 

Mask usage is substantially higher in the bay area during this same period vs So cal as well. 

Showing vax status to get into bars/restaurants is far more common in the bay area vs So Cal

And yet during delta and with the start of the omicron what do you see happen? 

It all looks about the same doesn't it?


----------



## crush

Last but not least, I have learned some sage over the years and I will post it on to you guys.  If you can;t be bought, bribed and blackmailed, they will just threaten you, kill you or look to ruin your life however they can and they will.  This planet is the lowest of all lows with psychopath and has all it;s roots in money and power and death and fear.  I dont care about money.  I dont want any power.  You all can have all the money & power you want.  I just ask for all babies to be born, all people's are truly free and a loving place that is all about merit.  No jealousy and no pay to play.  This is what I'm going to create if I dont get whacked first.  Everyone get's a UBI and everyone get's left alone to choose whatever life they want.  EVERYONE IS FREE, EVEN THE KIDS THAT WE RENT FROM GOD.  It's not a rent to own either.  My gosh, some of you think you own your kids and they have to do whatever you want for their lives that you and earth have planned for them.  This is why my wife and I came to earth.  Were going to help build back better earth where EVERYONE IS FREE!!!


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> The graphs are during the delta wave. The bay area was and is far more restrictive vs So Cal.
> 
> Mask usage is substantially higher in the bay area during this same period vs So cal as well.
> 
> Showing vax status to get into bars/restaurants is far more common in the bay area vs So Cal
> 
> And yet during delta and with the start of the omicron what do you see happen?
> 
> It all looks about the same doesn't it?


LA and SF is hard core Hound.  I went up last month and you cant enter any place without a mask and now vaxx.  SF is all in too.  Notice the first Omicron flew into SF airport.  I have all the answers and see through all this.  At this point in the game, I trust no one.  I'm afraid to say that is as easy as it gets going forward.  The double speak liars talking right now is too much for me.  In times of war, you can lie.  I forgot about that.  War is not for the faint of heart.  I dont like this anymore.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> They are so spiteful of Fauci and the way he let trump come off like a fool. Of course trump did that all on his own.


Not because Fauci is unable to tell the truth? He's an excellent noble liar.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Not because Fauci is unable to tell the truth? He's an excellent noble liar.


What has he lied about? And did you and will you vote for trump? Did trump ever lie?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> What has he lied about? And did you and will you vote for trump? Did trump ever lie?


EVERYONE IS A LIAR.  Just like the Doc who lied all the time to my dd.  Just be honest about the lying and then were all liars dumb dumb.  Hey, were all liars and cheaters, how's that Mr. Husler.


----------



## Desert Hound

This Scientist Created a Rapid Test Just Weeks Into the Pandemic. Here’s Why You Still Can’t Get It.
					

Irene Bosch developed a quick, inexpensive COVID-19 test in early 2020. The Harvard-trained scientist already had a factory set up. But she was stymied by an FDA process experts say made no sense.




					www.propublica.org


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> This Scientist Created a Rapid Test Just Weeks Into the Pandemic. Here’s Why You Still Can’t Get It.
> 
> 
> Irene Bosch developed a quick, inexpensive COVID-19 test in early 2020. The Harvard-trained scientist already had a factory set up. But she was stymied by an FDA process experts say made no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.propublica.org


Well, PCR test is the better test.  The guy who invented the test is dead.  Now they have new test that Bill made.  Oh joy, what will life bring us this Winter Hound?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The graphs are during the delta wave. The bay area was and is far more restrictive vs So Cal.
> 
> Mask usage is substantially higher in the bay area during this same period vs So cal as well.
> 
> Showing vax status to get into bars/restaurants is far more common in the bay area vs So Cal
> 
> And yet during delta and with the start of the omicron what do you see happen?
> 
> It all looks about the same doesn't it?


Sure.  If you delete all things that look different, you are left with things that look the same.

People far, far smarter than you have already studied whether masks and distance work.  They are telling you yes.  If you’re too stubborn to understand what they mean, that’s your problem.


----------



## crush

I can live with a mask mandate if people feel better about not showing their face or seeing my smile.  I will only do that when I'm in a public place.  The jab and booster mandate is one big no!!!  No no no no no no no no never and never again.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> On CBS last month, Dr. Fauci said Republicans who criticize him are “really criticizing science, because I represent science. That’s dangerous.” He isn’t “science.” And it’s also dangerous for scientific officials to mobilize to quash dissent, without which it’s easy to make tragic mistakes. A scientific debate over pandemic policy was and still is in the public interest, especially during a once-in-a-century plague.
> 
> Focused protection of nursing homes and other high-risk populations remains the policy road not taken during the pandemic. Perhaps this strategy wouldn’t have prevailed if a debate had been allowed. But it isn’t enough to repeat, as Dr. Collins did on Fox News Sunday, that advocates are “fringe epidemiologists who really did not have the credentials,” and that “hundreds of thousands of people would have died if we had followed that strategy.”
> 
> More than 800,000 Americans have died as much of the country followed the strategy of Drs. Collins and Fauci, and that’s not counting the other costs in lost livelihoods, shuttered businesses, untreated illnesses, mental illness from isolation, and the incalculable anguish of seeing loved ones die alone without the chance for a family to say good-bye.
> 
> Rather than try to manipulate public opinion, the job of health officials is to offer their best scientific advice. They shouldn’t act like politicians or censors, and when they do, they squander the public’s trust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | How Fauci and Collins Shut Down Covid Debate
> 
> 
> They worked with the media to trash the Great Barrington Declaration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


As if we needed further confirmation of our advocacy media and the abuse of power in our COVID leadership. Bad behavior in leadership = more division. This will continue the erosion of Fauci's credibility and influence. There will still be plenty of people who will support him because he believes in wearing masks indefinitely. To some, nothing else is as important as it feeds into their fears, and his other actions including lying about supporting gain of function research and stifling dissent aren't considered. Remember the Cuomo's? Again, the higher a monkey climbs, the more his ass shows.


----------



## NorCalDad

Looks like Team Reason has Trump on its side:









						Trump pushes back on Candace Owens: ‘People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine’
					

Former President Trump in an interview with conservative media personality Candace Owens pushed back over her claims undermining the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines.In a Tuesday episode of …




					thehill.com
				




<getting popcorn while I watch heads explode>

Seriously do applaud Trump for being vocal about this.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> As if we needed further confirmation of our advocacy media and the abuse of power in our COVID leadership. Bad behavior in leadership = more division. This will continue the erosion of Fauci's credibility and influence. There will still be plenty of people who will support him because he believes in wearing masks indefinitely. To some, nothing else is as important as it feeds into their fears, and his other actions including lying about supporting gain of function research and stifling dissent aren't considered. Remember the Cuomo's? Again, the higher a monkey climbs, the more his ass shows.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Looks like Team Reason has Trump on its side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump pushes back on Candace Owens: ‘People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine’
> 
> 
> Former President Trump in an interview with conservative media personality Candace Owens pushed back over her claims undermining the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines.In a Tuesday episode of …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <getting popcorn while I watch heads explode>
> 
> *Seriously do applaud Trump for being vocal about this.*


Yay Trump.  I never voted for t dumb dumb.  That's why those of us who didnt vote for over 30 years are now pissed off.  We don;t follow a man like you do.  You actually follow the wind and find people to tell you what you want.  You got t now bro.  He will be King Cyrus sooner then you think and you will kneel again sucker!!!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> What has he lied about? And did you and will you vote for trump? Did trump ever lie?


You really do kneel at the alter.  

Let's start with gain of function reasearch.  He is a very adept liar.  

Did trump lie?  of course he lied about stuff, at that level, they all lie.  Did I vote for trump?  unfortunately I didn't vote for trump. In retrospect, voting for trump should have been the way to.  Voting trump out of office to lower the temperature of discourse in this country hasn't worked.  If anything it's gotten worse.  Fortunately, upcoming elections should help, as people realize how much worse off this country is today.

Back to fauci, you are likley one that think it's ok to tell a noble lie.  Don't you remember the mask lies?  Do a bit of research into his AZT days and how those trials progressed, how they went to market, etc.  Check out his position on ART.  Before 2020, he was just another corrupt scientist privately and quitely  ensuring big pharma profitability.  He's aligned to many powerful companies and sits on the Gates Foundation council.   It's not your fault, you don't have an understanding of how that world operates, many/most don't. 

So yes, he's a liar, but a very good one.  He's very bright and has been in the trenches for some time.  He's almost impossible to get rid of. 

but carry on.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Using hospitalizations as a proxy, from the SA study I posted earlier, it appears among the vaxxed hospitalizations are about 80% lower than with the Delta....unvaxxed about 20%-45% (depending on if you screen out prior natural immunity).


I believe this study and one other that is also positive w.r.t. hospitalization is now posted on CNN. The headline is:

"Researchers find Omicron had 10 times the proportion of reinfection cases compared to Delta. Here's what else two early studies say." I have to laugh that they bury the good news. No doubt protecting us from ourselves.

"Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of Covid-19 hospitalization compared with Delta, suggests one study, released online Wednesday as a working paper by researchers at the University of Edinburgh in the United Kingdom. That research was based out of Scotland."

"The other paper, posted Tuesday to the online server medrxiv.org, suggests that people with Omicron infections have had 80% lower odds of being admitted to the hospital compared with Delta infections. But once a patient was hospitalized, there was no difference in the risk of severe disease, according to that research, based out of South Africa."









						Here's what early studies say about how Omicron compares to Delta
					

Countries around the world are canceling or restricting indoor events and activities as cases of Covid-19, fueled by both the Delta and Omicron variant, spike. Follow here for the latest news updates.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sure.  If you delete all things that look different, you are left with things that look the same.
> 
> People far, far smarter than you have already studied whether masks and distance work.  They are telling you yes.  If you’re too stubborn to understand what they mean, that’s your problem.


Let me get my Orwellian translator out that my kid gave me for Christmas.  It's a wonder!

"Sure"= "Nope!"

"If you delete all things that look different, you are left with things that look the same"= "I like it when I remove things that are different (like housing density and a Los Angeles type variant when I'm explaining why Los Angeles, despite having outdoor mask mandates, had a poor record re California and the rest of the world), I don't like it when you do it (like comparing just the Delta and Omicron waves and neglecting the prior ones, even though its acknowledge the Delta and Omicron are more transmissible and therefore NPIs are less likely to have any effect)"

"People far, far smarter than you"= "I'm doing the subtle put down thing again.  Notice the double far and that I use smarter instead of educated".

"They are telling you yes"= "I'm doing my usual appeal to authority/experts things, but only the experts I like"

"If you're too stubborn to understand what they mean"= "again, I use the word understand instead of accept because I want to use a subtle putdown"

"that's your problem"= "but even though its your problem I'm not going to stop harranging people for not following the experts and in the process make myself feel all superior.  Besides you really need to just shut up and accept what they tell you."


----------



## crush

Wow, t just got my pal to go for the jab.  He was holding out because of the things I was saying and he was scared by my tone of warning.  He's a great guy who will make $170,000 this year and plans to retire in 5 more years.  He's got plans to retire Bali to relax and be treating like a King.  He deserves it for all his hard work.  He told me just now that it's safe to take because Mr. Booster says so.  I do like that t said no mandates and no kids should be wearing a fucking mask.  If we can all agre to leave folks like me alone and stop putting mask on the kids, well then we might have a chance.  BTW, i just watched t back in the day that he would never take a V so who the fuck knows.  Were getting in mind control part of the physop.  I see who follows t and their now getting the jab because they follow man.  I dont judge my pal at all and if my dd said she wants it, then she can.  It's her life and my sons life to choose whatever they want to put in the veins in order to get a job and go to college and play soccer.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> _*"If you're too stubborn to understand what they mean"= "again, I use the word understand instead of accept because I want to use a subtle putdown"*_


Never, ever submit to anyone asking you if you "understand."  Once you agree, you are under their authority.  Always change it on them and say, "Yes, I interstand you completely.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Looks like Team Reason has Trump on its side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump pushes back on Candace Owens: ‘People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine’
> 
> 
> Former President Trump in an interview with conservative media personality Candace Owens pushed back over her claims undermining the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines.In a Tuesday episode of …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <getting popcorn while I watch heads explode>
> 
> Seriously do applaud Trump for being vocal about this.


... and having the vaccines as fast as we did. I laughed at the quote "I came up with three vaccines". I suppose that's nothing compared to the utterances coming out of our current President but still reminded me of Al Gore.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Looks like Team Reason has Trump on its side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump pushes back on Candace Owens: ‘People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine’
> 
> 
> Former President Trump in an interview with conservative media personality Candace Owens pushed back over her claims undermining the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines.In a Tuesday episode of …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <getting popcorn while I watch heads explode>
> 
> Seriously do applaud Trump for being vocal about this.


1. Most of us on Team Reality think taking the vaccine is a good idea, and absolutely if you are over 30 and haven't already had it.  It's the one thing I think almost all of us can agree on.
2. You rather he not and just play up to his base?  I'm glad he did it, and even though I'm not a fan, applaud him for it.  It's the most useful thing that can be done to get his reluctant base over it.
3. He makes clear though "it's still there choice".  Many of us who think the vaccines are a good thing aren't into mandates, especially in light of the omicron that it does little to stop community spread.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> ... and having the vaccines as fast as we did. I laughed at the quote "I came up with three vaccines". I suppose that's nothing compared to the utterances coming out of our current President but still reminded me of Al Gore.


T is so full of himself that these clowns loved t before he ran.  Look at all the tapes.  They were kissing his ass all the way to the bank.  As soon as he decided to be Cyrus, all the little back stabbers got their knives out and ripped into him.  The kiss assers trun their back on the boss.  This guy is not the boss to fuck with and he will bring pain to the ass kissers.  No more ass kissing allowed on the new earth.  Look at how fast Espola and The Husler went for Liz.  Now that t has agreed to their terms, their all in one fucking tent together, where they all belong.  I do not fault anyone for taking a jab or two based on the opportunist trying to make a buck in this shit.  It's sad how fast people stab folks in the back.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. Most of us on Team Reality think taking the vaccine is a good idea, and absolutely if you are over 30 and haven't already had it.  It's the one thing I think almost all of us can agree on.
> 2. You rather he not and just play up to his base?  I'm glad he did it, and even though I'm not a fan, applaud him for it.  It's the most useful thing that can be done to get his reluctant base over it.
> 3. He makes clear though "it's still there choice".  Many of us who think the vaccines are a good thing aren't into mandates, especially in light of the omicron that it does little to stop community spread.


Grace T, we are not a part of his fucking base.  WTF up!!!!


----------



## crush

I know what's next you guys and its only going to get harder for us free thinkers to think outside the box.  These fools think we were a part of Mr. T's base????  Seriously, this is so fucked because no mater what, they will label me a t supporter.  It's more like t is trying to join the right group and at this point, that's going to be up to the Real Boss.  Oh boy you guys, you all have much to learn.  I'm sorry for coming on hard on some you.  I'm so fucking competitive in fairness that watching how fast people kneel and kiss ass a ring is insane.  Wow, the earth is changing.  I told my wife we need to find a safe place to get a way as everyone fights for power & control.  I already know my pals who think I should have freedom of choice will also tell me to get jabbed now because t finally caved into the demands.  Now Grace T is happy and likes t.  You all can have a wonderful Christmas together.  Dont forget your boosters.  This time next year is so easy to predict.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> This Scientist Created a Rapid Test Just Weeks Into the Pandemic. Here’s Why You Still Can’t Get It.
> 
> 
> Irene Bosch developed a quick, inexpensive COVID-19 test in early 2020. The Harvard-trained scientist already had a factory set up. But she was stymied by an FDA process experts say made no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.propublica.org


Further on the testing shortage....

I think people are overthinking this.  The explanation is pretty straight forward: they want to be in charge of quality control and the count and therefore went all in on public instead of at home testing....if you test at home no guarantee it is accurate and it doesn't go into the official tally.









						How omicron broke Covid-19 testing
					

Rapid tests are sold out everywhere, and help might not come until next year.




					www.vox.com


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> 1. Most of us on Team Reality think taking the vaccine is a good idea, and absolutely if you are over 30 and haven't already had it.  It's the one thing I think almost all of us can agree on.
> 2. You rather he not and just play up to his base?  I'm glad he did it, and even though I'm not a fan, applaud him for it.  It's the most useful thing that can be done to get his reluctant base over it.
> 3. He makes clear though "it's still there choice".  Many of us who think the vaccines are a good thing aren't into mandates, especially in light of the omicron that it does little to stop community spread.


Reading comprehension @grace -- re-read my whole post.  

Most of you on Team Confused don't know which way is up.  You don't even know what you're arguing anymore.  Here Trump, who Team Confused probably thought was on their side, basically shuts down one of Team Confused biggest grifters. 

Team Reason doesn't want mandates -- they just want people to do the right thing.  Team Confused is a bunch of trolls, crazy right wingers, and others influenced heavily by tweets from god knows who.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Reading comprehension @grace -- re-read my whole post.
> 
> Most of you on Team Confused don't know which way is up.  You don't even know what you're arguing anymore.  Here Trump, who Team Confused probably thought was on their side, basically shuts down one of Team Confused biggest grifters.
> 
> Team Reason doesn't want mandates -- they just want people to do the right thing.  Team Confused is a bunch of trolls, crazy right wingers, and others influenced heavily by tweets from god knows who.


I disagree people don't know what they are arguing anymore.  That's just you dumping on folks (whether anti-vaxxer, or pro vax but anti-mandate) that you disagree with.  It's good to know Trump is pro vax but anti-mandate.

"Team Reason doesn't want mandates"== you've just defined yourself outside of the left-wing pro-mandate camp and there are a lot of them.  If you say you are not one of them, all the better and you are welcome to a Team Reality button.


----------



## NorCalDad

Oh and Team Confusion, can I suggest the following theme song?  (It's actually really good):


----------



## Brav520

Just “ do the right thing “

Just get the vaccines and all the boosters and we promise to leave you alone 

I’m sure “just do the right thing “ will stop at vaccines


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Reading comprehension @grace -- re-read my whole post.
> 
> *Most of you on Team Confused* don't know which way is up.  You don't even know what you're arguing anymore.  Here Trump, who Team Confused probably thought was on their side, basically shuts down one of Team Confused biggest grifters.
> 
> Team Reason doesn't want mandates -- they just want people to do the right thing.  Team Confused is a bunch of trolls, crazy right wingers, and others influenced heavily by tweets from god knows who.


Moist of you are all on Team Lie.  That's why team confused is confused, because our team is shocked with how much you guys lie to stay ahead.  This is 100% my last Christmas here. I will let out what I have left and i will never bother any of you ever agian.  You have college soccer too losers!!!  Oh Norcal and Golden Gate, thanks for ruining our country.  It's all yours you liars and cheaters.  Everyone of you are now on record.  You made your beds.  I came to warn you guys.  See ya booster boys!!!


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Oh and Team Confusion, can I suggest the following theme song?  (It's actually really good):


Fuck off!!!


----------



## NorCalDad

Trump goes beyond pro-vaxx:

---
“Oh no, the vaccines work,” Trump jumped in. “But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.” 
---

Pretty much flies against a lot of Team Confusions talking points.  Maybe Tump is in cahoots with Big Pharma....

<this popcorn is yummy>


----------



## NorCalDad

Brav520 said:


> Just “ do the right thing “
> 
> Just get the vaccines and all the boosters and we promise to leave you alone
> 
> I’m sure “just do the right thing “ will stop at vaccines


Seems Trump is in agreement...


----------



## Brav520

NorCalDad said:


> Seems Trump is in agreement...


and?


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Just “ do the right thing “
> 
> Just get the vaccines and all the boosters and we promise to leave you alone
> 
> I’m sure “just do the right thing “ will stop at vaccines


Hey bro, it was nice meeting you.  The fuckers are showing their cards and it's time for me to leave once and for all.  Darkness rules this place.  They want Normal so bad their willing to get boosters forever.  I tried to shed my light on this place and its a shit hole.  We are not invited to family holiday because we believe in Christmas and not holiday.  They said because no jab, no family get together.  Can you believe how fast the darkness took over this week?  Divide and then destroy with lies and then try and conquer.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I disagree people don't know what they are arguing anymore.  That's just you dumping on folks (whether anti-vaxxer, or pro vax but anti-mandate) that you disagree with.  It's good to know Trump is pro vax but anti-mandate.
> 
> "Team Reason doesn't want mandates"== you've just defined yourself outside of the left-wing pro-mandate camp and there are a lot of them.  If you say you are not one of them, all the better and you are welcome to a Team Reality button.


He;s GG and EOTL and Dad all in one  Nocal, hello???  Of course they allowed the Omicron to enter their fucking airport first.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Trump goes beyond pro-vaxx:
> 
> ---
> “Oh no, the vaccines work,” Trump jumped in. “But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.”
> ---
> 
> Pretty much flies against a lot of Team Confusions talking points.  Maybe Tump is in cahoots with Big Pharma....
> 
> <this popcorn is yummy>


Loser and liar.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> People far, far smarter than you have already studied whether masks and distance work.


They don't. If they did the pandemic would be over. 

You wish things could be the way they are on your piece of paper. 

Most of us deal in reality. 

Masks have never worked for respiratory illness before for starters.

Then you deal with the fact they are worn incorrectly, adjusted, touched, etc all day long and that defeats the purpose. 

People cannot socially distance in any meaningful way. People have to work for starters. People are social creatures...

And so on and so on. 

Masks and social distancing are strategies that were never going to work on a large scale. 

Time and again you fail to acknowledge reality.

Fortunately more and more people are coming around to reality and moving on.

People far smarter than you realized long ago that the solutions preferred by you the experts you chose to believe, were never going to work.


----------



## NorCalDad

Brav520 said:


> and?


Well, my guess is him getting kicked off of Twitter was one of the best things that could've happened to him.  Unlike the rest of Team Confused he's probably getting more reliable/accurate information now as a result.  For Team Confused this is a great moment of reflection.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Trump goes beyond pro-vaxx:
> 
> ---
> “Oh no, the vaccines work,” Trump jumped in. “But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.”
> ---
> 
> Pretty much flies against a lot of Team Confusions talking points.  Maybe Tump is in cahoots with Big Pharma....
> 
> <this popcorn is yummy>


Your TDS is getting in the way of your logic.  Better rush out and get a test right now.

His message is pretty clear: the vaxx works against serious illness, but "it's still their choice" (i.e., shouldn't be forced/mandated).  

Great!  I'm 100% on board with that message.  Don't see the problem here.


----------



## Brav520

NorCalDad said:


> Well I guess we aren’t far off here if you are against mandates


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Your TDS is getting in the way of your logic.  Better rush out and get a test right now.
> 
> His message is pretty clear: the vaxx works against serious illness, but "it's still their choice" (i.e., shouldn't be forced/mandated).
> 
> Great!  I'm 100% on board with that message.  Don't see the problem here.


---
“Look, the results of the vaccine are very good, and if you do get it, it’s a very minor form,” he continued. “People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine.”
---

This goes against about 90% of arguments made by Team Confused since the beginning of this thread.

Cherry on top, here's what Biden had to say:

---
“Let me be clear,” the president said. “Thanks to the prior administration and our scientific community, America was one of the first countries to get the vaccine. Thanks to my administration and the hard work of Americans, we led a rollout that made America among the world leaders in getting shots in arms.” 
---

Which, Trump, was unsurprisingly happy to hear about.

Perhaps I should get Trump a Team Reason kit.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Perhaps I should get Trump a Team Reason kit.


May as well....dad4 and the other mandators are going to kick you out of Team Panic for your anti-mandate stance.  I, for one, welcome anyone who sees reason.

p.s. looking into the mirror, did YOU ever think you'd agree with Trump on anything???


----------



## thirteenknots

WAKE UP !!!!!


A message from the inventor of the mRNA process, Dr. Robert Malone.

My name is Robert Malone, and I am speaking to you as a parent, grandparent, physician and scientist. I don’t usually read from a prepared speech, but this is so important that I wanted to make sure that I get every single word and scientific fact correct.
I stand by this statement with a career dedicated to vaccine research and development. I’m vaccinated for COVID and I’m generally pro-vaccination. I have devoted my entire career to developing safe and effective ways to prevent and treat infectious diseases.
After this, I will be posting the text of this statement so you can share it with your friends and family.
Before you inject your child – a decision that is irreversible – I wanted to let you know the scientific facts about this genetic vaccine, which is based on the mRNA vaccine technology I created.
There are three issues parents need to understand:

_*The first is that a viral gene will be injected into your children’s cells. This gene forces your child’s body to make toxic spike proteins. (True for adults as well!)*_ These proteins often cause permanent damage in children’s critical organs, including:
– Their brain and nervous system
– Their heart and blood vessels, including blood clots
– Their reproductive system
– And this vaccine can trigger fundamental changes to their immune system
The most alarming point about this is that once these damages have occurred, they are irreparable.
– You can’t fix the lesions within their brain
– You can’t repair heart tissue scarring
– You can’t repair a genetically reset immune system, and
– This vaccine can cause reproductive damage that could affect future generations of your family.

*The second thing you need to know about is the fact that this novel technology has not been adequately tested.*
– We need at least 5 years of testing/research before we can really understand the risks
– Harms and risks from new medicines often become revealed many years later
Ask yourself if you want your own child to be part of the most radical medical experiment in human history

*One final point: the reason they’re giving you to vaccinate your child is a lie.*
– Your children represent no danger to their parents or grandparents
– It’s actually the opposite. Their immunity, after getting COVID, is critical to save your family if not the world from this disease

*In summary: there is no benefit for your children or your family to be vaccinating your children against the small risks of the virus*, given the known health risks of the vaccine that as a parent, you and your children may have to live with for the rest of their lives.

_*The risk/benefit analysis isn’t even close.*_
As a parent and grandparent, my recommendation to you is to resist and fight to protect your children.



_Dr. Robert Malone_


----------



## crush

Wow you guys, fucking I am getting it from all sides now.  PMs are lighting up and warnings are everywhere to tell me to STFU.  I have it all on these losers.  I have to leave for sure tomorrow.  My legal team told me it's best to go away by tomorrow before Christmas Eve Celebration of Yeshua birthday and let Real Boss handle the rest.  I told them I agree and I will not post anymore under crush beginning tomorrow at 12pm.  Sorry you guys, their trying to kill crush like they did before crush was born.  Nut jobs with no heart and only think for evil themselves.  Watch these lurkers who have been hiding in their shadows, afraid of the light and FEARFUL that their cheating will be exposed all come back to try and save face on here after I leave.  I will now lurk under a new avatar after tomorrow @12pm.  This will be a 24 hour goodbye marathon.  I will release that Krakenlol!!!Why is it so hard for someone(s) to just fucking confess their wrong, repent and then change to do right.  The assholes who cheat and then lie about it when caught, are the real felons.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> WAKE UP !!!!!
> 
> 
> A message from the inventor of the mRNA process, Dr. Robert Malone.
> 
> My name is Robert Malone, and I am speaking to you as a parent, grandparent, physician and scientist. I don’t usually read from a prepared speech, but this is so important that I wanted to make sure that I get every single word and scientific fact correct.
> I stand by this statement with a career dedicated to vaccine research and development. I’m vaccinated for COVID and I’m generally pro-vaccination. I have devoted my entire career to developing safe and effective ways to prevent and treat infectious diseases.
> After this, I will be posting the text of this statement so you can share it with your friends and family.
> Before you inject your child – a decision that is irreversible – I wanted to let you know the scientific facts about this genetic vaccine, which is based on the mRNA vaccine technology I created.
> There are three issues parents need to understand:
> 
> _*The first is that a viral gene will be injected into your children’s cells. This gene forces your child’s body to make toxic spike proteins. (True for adults as well!)*_ These proteins often cause permanent damage in children’s critical organs, including:
> – Their brain and nervous system
> – Their heart and blood vessels, including blood clots
> – Their reproductive system
> – And this vaccine can trigger fundamental changes to their immune system
> The most alarming point about this is that once these damages have occurred, they are irreparable.
> – You can’t fix the lesions within their brain
> – You can’t repair heart tissue scarring
> – You can’t repair a genetically reset immune system, and
> – This vaccine can cause reproductive damage that could affect future generations of your family.
> 
> *The second thing you need to know about is the fact that this novel technology has not been adequately tested.*
> – We need at least 5 years of testing/research before we can really understand the risks
> – Harms and risks from new medicines often become revealed many years later
> Ask yourself if you want your own child to be part of the most radical medical experiment in human history
> 
> *One final point: the reason they’re giving you to vaccinate your child is a lie.*
> – Your children represent no danger to their parents or grandparents
> – It’s actually the opposite. Their immunity, after getting COVID, is critical to save your family if not the world from this disease
> 
> *In summary: there is no benefit for your children or your family to be vaccinating your children against the small risks of the virus*, given the known health risks of the vaccine that as a parent, you and your children may have to live with for the rest of their lives.
> 
> _*The risk/benefit analysis isn’t even close.*_
> As a parent and grandparent, my recommendation to you is to resist and fight to protect your children.
> 
> 
> 
> _Dr. Robert Malone_


Oh boy, I will be praying for Dr. Malone.  The guy WHO invented the PCR test is now dead.  It's time to share from my hear one last time and then go hide away.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> May as well....dad4 and the other mandators are going to kick you out of Team Panic for your anti-mandate stance.  I, for one, welcome anyone who sees reason.
> 
> p.s. looking into the mirror, did YOU ever think you'd agree with Trump on anything???


I never said I disagreed with everything Trump did.  My biggest gripe against the guy is he is a vile human being.  We teach our kids to not be assholes.  You know The Golden Rule and all that jazz.  And here we elect the king of all assholes.  Not a good look; not a good message to send.


----------



## thirteenknots

Dr. Kary Mullis, inventor of the PCR test, explains Dr. Fauci has an agenda - YouTube 


The midget King Fauci is EVIL.


----------



## thirteenknots

*Nobel Laureate, PCR Inventor Said Fauci Was a Liar, Abusing Test Data For An Agenda And Afraid To Debate*





Published
 1 year ago 

 December 11, 2020
By Dvid Knight


The Nobel Laureate inventor of the PCR test, Kary Mullis, died at the age of 74 back in August of 2019 but prior to his death, he had a lot of interaction with Fauci.
He’d already gone to war with Fauci for misusing his PCR test.  Mullis and other scientists said Fauci was magnifying the retrovirus HIV using PCR to “prove” it was the cause of AIDS.  Mullis was furious that Fauci refused to debate him on science but argued from authority.
Does this all sound familiar?  It’s another reason why this COVID “novel” was not credible from the beginning.  In the past, Fauci, CDC, etc, had abused test methods many times to push pandemics and pharmaceuticals.
“The strategy for locking us down again is based on these fraudulent tests.  The magnified tests that don’t measure the quantity of anything.  It’s the same strategy Fauci used to make a lot of money for a lot of people.  It’s not just the PCR test, all these rapid tests, every one of them, they’re all NON-QUANTITATIVE tests.  There’s no such thing as a non-quantitative test, it’s a lie, an obvious fraud.  We’re locking everybody down over brainless lies.  The only reason they were able to get away with this is because they’ve turned us into an idiocracy, that was the whole point of the government schools.”
“[Mullis] always said you couldn’t use [PCR] to diagnose a disease but in this particular clip, he goes directly after Fauci and tells what a liar he is,” reported David Knight on 12/10/2020’s show.
Knight then played the clip (here: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336993923076665346) where Mullis said,  “These guys like Fauci get up there and start talking to me, you know, he doesn’t know anything really about anything, and I’d say that to his face. Nothing.  The man thinks you can take a blood sample and stick it in an electron microscope and if it’s got a virus in there you’d know it.  He doesn’t understand electron microscopy, and he doesn’t understand medicine, and he shouldn’t be in the position he’s in.  Most of those guys up there on the top are just total administrative people, and they don’t know anything about what’s going on at the bottom.  Those guys have an agenda, which is not what we would like them to have, being that we pay for them to take care of our health in some way.  They’ve got a personal kind of agenda, they make up their own rules, they change them as they go.  And Tony Fauci doesn’t mind going on television in front of the people who pay his salary and lie directly into the camera.”
Knight comments,  “Fauci didn’t want to have the debate because he only argues from AUTHORITY.  Mullis didn’t believe that there was a connection between HIV and AIDS and said they’re making this connection by misusing his test.  He said we all have retroviruses and they’re, literally, blowing this way out of proportion.  They’re amplifying it a TRILLION times, that’s what a PCR cycle of 40 does.”  The FDA requires PCR testing of COVID to be 40 CT (cycle threshold).
“There’s an excellent article about Mullis and his conflict with Fauci by Celia Farber (here: https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-test-meant-to-detect-a-virus/).
Knight comments, “Mullis didn’t believe that AIDS was caused by HIV, partly because it was barely detectable in AIDS patients.  When PCR was used, they were able to see viral particles in quantities they couldn’t see before.”
Farber reports, ”Mullis himself was unimpressed. ‘PCR made it easier to see that certain people are infected with HIV,’ Mullis told Spin in 1992, ‘and some of those people came down with symptoms of AIDS. But that doesn’t begin even to answer the question — Does HIV cause it?’ ”
“Does that sound familiar?” asked Knight.  “They misuse the PCR test and all of a sudden we’ve got cases everywhere.  They did a complete media blackout of the HIV debate for over 7 years.  Just like with vaccines right now.”
“Remember that the first thing Fauci did as director of the NIH was to make sure that BigPharma had legal immunity for any damage from vaccines.  And remember, this was less than 10 years after we’d been rushed into a swine flu vaccine over a fake pandemic and a lot of people were injured by it.  That was the reason he had to do it, it had nothing to do with science, it’s all about politics and money.”
But Fauci also took the reins of NIH’s infectious diseases as AIDS/HIV was pushed to the front by him and by media.
Mullis said “The mystery of [AIDS] has been generated by the $2 billion a year they spend on it. You take any other virus, and you spend $2 billion, and you can make up some great mysteries about it too.”
Knight compares the financial incentives of the AIDS industry in 1990s with GreatReset financial and political incentives with COVID.  “What if you spend $20 billion on it?  What if you were to reorder society and take everything from everyone over it?  What if the pot at the end of all this is worth TENS of TRILLIONS of dollars to the bankers, globalists, and the politicians who work for them?  For TRILLIONS of dollars, they could reset the whole world.”  And all it takes is magnifying a virus a trillion times with a PCR of 40 CT.
“There are many parallels between what Fauci did with AIDS and what he’s doing with COVID.  Mullis pointed out that the misuse of his test was just being done because there’s money involved.  For 7-years the media stopped anyone questioning what Fauci said about AIDS.  They’ve been censoring the debate over vaccines for quite some time and they’re going to step it up.  YouTube was bragging about how they’re going to pull down any videos of anyone who questions the election now.”
“It’s a clear violation of the First Amendment, they’re taking our right to know, to debate.  These people don’t want to debate, Mullis was saying he’d challenged Fauci but he wouldn’t show up.  They will control the press, just like they did a blackout on AIDS, they’ll do a blackout on this vaccine,” concluded Knight.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Trump goes beyond pro-vaxx:
> 
> ---
> “Oh no, the vaccines work,” Trump jumped in. “But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.”
> ---
> 
> Pretty much flies against a lot of Team Confusions talking points.  Maybe Tump is in cahoots with Big Pharma....
> 
> <this popcorn is yummy>


I'm not sure who Team Confusion is, but I believe most everyone on here, whether they like Trump or not, is in agreement with this statement:

_“But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.”_

Being pro-vax or anti-vax really has nothing to do with Trump despite how hard the left tries to propagate that narrative.  What's funny is traditionally it has always been the "granola types" (for lack of a better term) that have been anti-vax.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I never said I disagreed with everything Trump did.  My biggest gripe against the guy is he is a vile human being.  We teach our kids to not be assholes.  You know The Golden Rule and all that jazz.  And here we elect the king of all assholes.  Not a good look; not a good message to send.


Agree, but you've disqualified at least half of our Presidents.  Trump may very well have been the king of the assholes, but it is a little bit pollyannish if you weren't complaining about the others (I'll spare us the debate on which ones are the assholes....let's just say they are well represented regardless of whether they have a D or R behind heir names).

p.s. if you disqualify the assholes and the incompetents we are sadly down to maybe 1/4-1/5 of the Presidents.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> I'm not sure who Team Confusion is, but I believe most everyone on here, whether they like Trump or not, is in agreement with this statement:
> 
> _“But some people are the ones — the ones who get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones that don’t take the vaccine. But it’s still their choice. And if you take the vaccine, you’re protected.”_
> 
> Being pro-vax or anti-vax really has nothing to do with Trump despite how hard the left tries to propagate that narrative.  What's funny is traditionally it has always been the "granola types" (for lack of a better term) that have been anti-vax.


the problem is some on the left have changed the definition of anti-vax

check out how merriam Webster now defines anti vax


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Agree, but you've disqualified at least half of our Presidents.  Trump may very well have been the king of the assholes, but it is a little bit pollyannish if you weren't complaining about the others (I'll spare us the debate on which ones are the assholes....let's just say they are well represented regardless of whether they have a D or R behind heir names).
> 
> p.s. if you disqualify the assholes and the incompetents we are sadly down to maybe 1/4-1/5 of the Presidents.


Carter wasn't an asshole (as far as I can remember) yet look what that got us.  No president of the 20th/21st century has left the country in objectively worse shape than Carter (its actually not even close).  Interestingly enough he has been the most productive ex-president.

We all wish we could vote for a president with great character and policies, we just haven't had that option lately.  Honestly, can it get any worse? (I don't want to know the answer to that question)


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## crush

Ok, it's just been told to me life is in danger now.  Oh joy, right?  Same assholes who wanted me dead before birth want me dead now I guess.  I'm out right now.  Please stop threatening me you asshole.  I'm leaving I promise.  Seriously, what a crazy ass time it has been at this place.  I have to leave guys.  Legal team said, "Get out now!!!" I love you all and will miss you all.  Bye you all and I will lurk as always and see how the wind changes next week.   Brav 520 my new brother, I will PM you my new avatar.  I wont be posting from my new avatar and will only receive PMs from people with any more information for the real cause that I came here four. I promise they will all come out after I leave.  Bye Grace T.  Bye Kicking & Screaming.  Bye Hound.  Bye Luis.  Bye GT45.  Bye Futbol dad.  Bye everyone else I didnt mention.  I'm out!!  The threats are now real.  Bye you guys  

I sign off one last time as crush


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Agree, but you've disqualified at least half of our Presidents.  Trump may very well have been the king of the assholes, but it is a little bit pollyannish if you weren't complaining about the others (I'll spare us the debate on which ones are the assholes....let's just say they are well represented regardless of whether they have a D or R behind heir names).
> 
> p.s. if you disqualify the assholes and the incompetents we are sadly down to maybe 1/4-1/5 of the Presidents.


Probably true, but until you get me a recording of Carter saying he likes to "grab women by the....".....Trump will win the asshole battle every time.


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> I never said I disagreed with everything Trump did.  My biggest gripe against the guy is he is a vile human being.  We teach our kids to not be assholes.  You know The Golden Rule and all that jazz.  And here we elect the king of all assholes.  Not a good look; not a good message to send.


No, we raise our boys to be men. Men don't refer to other men as vile human being, pussies do. This is your wife speaking, get your pair back.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Probably true, but until you get me a recording of Carter saying he likes to "grab women by the....".....Trump will win the asshole battle every time.


Hey so long as you held bill clinton and Kennedy to the same standards with women, we cool.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> No, we raise our boys to be men. Men don't refer to other men as vile human being, pussies do. This is your wife speaking, get your pair back.


You sound hurt, fragile. Maybe see someone about your obvious issues with insecurity and frequent attempts to compensate.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Hey so long as you held bill clinton and Kennedy to the same standards with women, we cool.


Consensual or forced?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Consensual or forced?


Here’s the test for you on that: if you are sure clinton is telling the truth but are sure trump is lying about it, you might just be a blind partisan.  If you are willing to say trump has less credibility than Clinton but they both might have done it, then you probably aren’t.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Hey so long as you held bill clinton and Kennedy to the same standards with women, we cool.


He has a dilemna on his hands.


----------



## Desert Hound

*COLUMBUS, Ohio — *_Deer may be the next carriers of COVID-19 who are able to infect humans, a new study warns. Scientists at The Ohio State University report that they have detected at least three variants of the virus in wild white-tailed deer throughout the state.

Researchers add that the animals may also be a potential “reservoir” for coronavirus, meaning COVID could survive within their bodies and evolve before jumping to humans.









						COVID-19 infections detected in U.S. deer, virus capable of jumping to humans
					

Researchers add that the animals may also be a potential "reservoir" for coronavirus, meaning COVID could survive within their bodies and evolve.




					www.studyfinds.org
				



_


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> *COLUMBUS, Ohio — *_Deer may be the next carriers of COVID-19 who are able to infect humans, a new study warns. Scientists at The Ohio State University report that they have detected at least three variants of the virus in wild white-tailed deer throughout the state.
> 
> Researchers add that the animals may also be a potential “reservoir” for coronavirus, meaning COVID could survive within their bodies and evolve before jumping to humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 infections detected in U.S. deer, virus capable of jumping to humans
> 
> 
> Researchers add that the animals may also be a potential "reservoir" for coronavirus, meaning COVID could survive within their bodies and evolve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.studyfinds.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Interesting, but it doesn't make the point you think it does.

A month from now, over 90% of the population will either be vaccinated or recovered.  

A static zoonotic reserve of delta would not be a major problem.  You'd have occasional seeds of a virus that can't grow.  

If the deer are bringing us new and interesting viruses, that would be a different question.  This is the "evolve before jumping" possibility.  Let's hope the biology doesn't do that.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Interesting, but it doesn't make the point you think it does.


What point do you think I was making? 

I found the article interesting and posted it.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> What point do you think I was making?
> 
> I found the article interesting and posted it.


I thought you were saying that the existence of zoonotic reserves was proof that we should not bother limiting the spread of covid in the human population.

(Can't get to covid zero, therefore resistance is futile.)


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I thought you were saying that the existence of zoonotic reserves was proof that we should not bother limiting the spread of covid in the human population.
> 
> (Can't get to covid zero, therefore resistance is futile.)


I just found it interesting that there is another way it possibly spreads. 

Deer being a new one. I wonder how it was transmitted to them in the first place.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I just found it interesting that there is another way it possibly spreads.
> 
> Deer being a new one. I wonder how it was transmitted to them in the first place.


One theory is through fertilizer which uses human waste, specifically corn since the North American deer outbreak started in the Midwest and northeast.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> One theory is through fertilizer which uses human waste, specifically corn since the North American deer outbreak started in the Midwest and northeast.


Interesting


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I just found it interesting that there is another way it possibly spreads.
> 
> Deer being a new one. I wonder how it was transmitted to them in the first place.


Deer are rats with good P.R.

People in cities think of them as remote forest creatures, like in Bambi.  

In truth, they're likely to walk right into your garden and eat whatever looks good.  And some people put out salt or food for them to get them to come even closer.

No real surprise that some of them caught covid and spread it to others.  Deer don't actually stay very far from people.  It's why they're so easy to hunt.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> He has a dilemna on his hands.
> 
> View attachment 12477


I guess that's why he's on Team Confusion.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I just found it interesting that there is another way it possibly spreads.
> 
> Deer being a new one. I wonder how it was transmitted to them in the first place.


Obviously, the bats threw a party and the deer exhibited bad behavior.


----------



## NorCalDad

Hüsker Dü said:


> You sound hurt, fragile. Maybe see someone about your obvious issues with insecurity and frequent attempts to compensate.


I muted that chode ages ago.  It's glorious.  He can write all he wants and I never read it.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Hey so long as you held bill clinton and Kennedy to the same standards with women, we cool.


No doubt Clinton was a sleazeball.  I mean it's irrefutable.  Plus he was another corporate Dem....the side of the party I'm not fond of as they might as well be republicans. 

Trump just took it up about 10 more notches.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Interesting, but it doesn't make the point you think it does.
> 
> A month from now, over 90% of the population will either be vaccinated or recovered.
> 
> A static zoonotic reserve of delta would not be a major problem.  You'd have occasional seeds of a virus that can't grow.
> 
> If the deer are bringing us new and interesting viruses, that would be a different question.  This is the "evolve before jumping" possibility.  Let's hope the biology doesn't do that.


The deer? Who is commingling with deer? Maybe in Nara.


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> I muted that chode ages ago.  It's glorious.  He can write all he wants and I never read it.


His wife made him.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> You sound hurt, fragile. Maybe see someone about your obvious issues with insecurity and frequent attempts to compensate.


Yawn, a beta for the reach-a-rounds.


----------



## watfly

Not sure if this has been posted.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/22/south-africa-omicron-coronavirus-cases/


----------



## Ellejustus

Someday all of us will be sitting inside drinking a cold one and watching some soccer without mask or vax passports.  This will happen, I  just don;t know when.  Look who will be outside watching.  THGIFF!!!  Merry Eve to everyone.  BTW, I'm super sad for my pal who can;t fly to see his parents because his flight was cancelled. Hawaii Bowl is cancelled too.  Look for way more cancellations.


----------



## Ellejustus

The JaCovid Witnesses would gladly help load the unvaccinated into boxcars without giving it a second thought.......


----------



## Brav520

Happy Birthday to The Science , Dr Fauci


----------



## kickingandscreaming

"Cloth masks are little more than facial decorations. There's no place for them in light of Omicron," said CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and visiting professor of health policy and management at the George Washington University Milken Institute School of Public Health, on CNN Newsroom Tuesday.









						Why you should upgrade your mask as the Omicron variant spreads | CNN
					

As the Omicron variant spreads, it's time to upgrade from your cloth face masks. Experts explain why medical-grade masks -- such as surgical/disposable masks and N95 and KN95 respirators -- are better options now and what people should do with the cloth masks they already have.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Someday all of us will be sitting inside drinking a cold one and watching some soccer without mask or vax passports.  This will happen, I  just don;t know when.  Look who will be outside watching.  THGIFF!!!  Merry Eve to everyone.  BTW, I'm super sad for my pal who can;t fly to see his parents because his flight was cancelled. Hawaii Bowl is cancelled too.  Look for way more cancellations.
> 
> View attachment 12479


Flights are being cancelled because the crews are sick.  Not too much anyone can do about it other than wish them well.  

They’re predicting 6 weeks.  3 weeks up.  3 weeks down.   Hoping things are close to normal by MLS opening day.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Flights are being cancelled because the crews are sick.  Not too much anyone can do about it other than wish them well.
> 
> They’re predicting 6 weeks.  3 weeks up.  3 weeks down.   Hoping things are close to normal by MLS opening day.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Merry Christmas to you dad.  I heard the pilots aren;t doing well either.  The airport right now is not a fun place and frankly I would not fly right now.  My prayers go out to all the souls on the earth and the airline industry.  They take on a lot of shit.  My best pal is pilot for SW.  Stay healthy up in Norcal dad.  Tell NoCaldad I say hi and it's always fun to play around with him.  I now believe you are 100% Dad and always have been dad.  I guess in once sense were all nuts.  @Brav520, it's me, a.ka. crush.  I always tell the forum when I'm done with one avatar and on to the next.  This is the original avatar and one I will finish with.  crush broke some of my rules and Dom's rules and for that, he has been banned and censored for life.  i tried to warn him and tell to keep his big mouth shut but he didn't listen.  I told him to watch his mouth and he went solo.  Anyway, the fellas called me EJ back in the day and I like the ring to that.  Check PM bro and see my, "Boo."  I will never out any of your Q to me and I ask the same of you.  Merry Christmas to you as well and to all the rest, especially Grace T   Love you all, truly


----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> Someday all of us will be sitting inside drinking a cold one and watching some soccer without mask or vax passports.  This will happen, I  just don;t know when.  Look who will be outside watching.  THGIFF!!!  Merry Eve to everyone.  BTW, I'm super sad for my pal who can;t fly to see his parents because his flight was cancelled. Hawaii Bowl is cancelled too.  Look for way more cancellations.
> 
> View attachment 12479


----> @dad4


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Flights are being cancelled because the crews are sick.  Not too much anyone can do about it other than wish them well.
> 
> They’re predicting 6 weeks.  3 weeks up.  3 weeks down.   Hoping things are close to normal by MLS opening day.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Yes, not a whole lot that can be done with the current infections and quarantine rules. The NFL is trying to say that asymptomatics aren't passing the virus on but they have a vested interest in that and by the time any real study is done this wave will be long over.

The US has been up since late October - but that may have been more due to seasonality and delta. Do you believe the 3-week up and down period associated with Omicron will be pretty consistent across regions? It doesn't look like CA has started in earnest yet. Florida is at least a week into their "up" period.

Merry Christmas to you as well, @dad4.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> Merry Christmas to you dad.  I heard the pilots aren;t doing well either.  The airport right now is not a fun place and frankly I would not fly right now.  My prayers go out to all the souls on the earth and the airline industry.  They take on a lot of shit.  My best pal is pilot for SW.  Stay healthy up in Norcal dad.  Tell NoCaldad I say hi and it's always fun to play around with him.  I now believe you are 100% Dad and always have been dad.  I guess in once sense were all nuts.  @Brav520, it's me, a.ka. crush.  I always tell the forum when I'm done with one avatar and on to the next.  This is the original avatar and one I will finish with.  crush broke some of my rules and Dom's rules and for that, he has been banned and censored for life.  i tried to warn him and tell to keep his big mouth shut but he didn't listen.  I told him to watch his mouth and he went solo.  Anyway, the fellas called me EJ back in the day and I like the ring to that.  Check PM bro and see my, "Boo."  I will never out any of your Q to me and I ask the same of you.  Merry Christmas to you as well and to all the rest, especially Grace T   Love you all, truly


Merry Christmas, Crush.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Merry Christmas, Crush.


Merry Christmas, Kicking and screaming


----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> The JaCovid Witnesses would gladly help load the unvaccinated into boxcars without giving it a second thought.......
> 
> View attachment 12480


When ones been duped, it's amazing what vax regret causes someone to do. Hell, they willingly allow their own kids to be government lab rats.


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> When ones been duped, it's amazing what vax regret causes someone to do. Hell, they willingly allow their own kids to be government lab rats.


Most of my friends who trusted the first and even the second shot, are NOT getting their kids the shot and their not lining up for the booster.  That I can report on from my bunker.  Merry Christmas Mic PaPa


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, not a whole lot that can be done with the current infections and quarantine rules. The NFL is trying to say that asymptomatics aren't passing the virus on but they have a vested interest in that and by the time any real study is done this wave will be long over.
> 
> The US has been up since late October - but that may have been more due to seasonality and delta. Do you believe the 3-week up and down period associated with Omicron will be pretty consistent across regions? It doesn't look like CA has started in earnest yet. Florida is at least a week into their "up" period.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you as well, @dad4.


Within the US and EU, I expect the 3 up 3 down to be consistent.  CA is just barely starting.

Don't apply the 3+3 rule to places with unusually low immunity or unusually strong NPI.  ( Not Australia or China, for example. ).


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

Merry Christmas!  Enjoy time with family and friends. Good luck if your flying anywhere.  Ski season is on!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> If the deer are bringing us new and interesting viruses, that would be a different question.  This is the "evolve before jumping" possibility.  Let's hope the biology doesn't do that.


Not just deer here in NA but other sylvatic reservoirs being established in all kinds of places, most of which we probably don't know about. Long after the current swarm of variants quits sloshing around in waves around the globe and hits whatever steady state is going to look like, those reservoirs will slowly be throwing out new rearrangements, testing the waters.  20 years from now, 40 years from now, who knows when one of them will hit on a new magic combination.  But in our kids' lifetimes probably.  If we can give them good immune system memory now that is best we can do, and hope whatever pops out is still Ace2 directed. 

Stopped by to see how the whole "the virus is going to mutate itself away" thing turned out.  Kind of like the RNA virus equivalent of Exodus International I guess.

Anyway, Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Merry Christmas!  Enjoy time with family and friends. Good luck if your flying anywhere.  Ski season is on!


Merry Christmas Wat Fly.  It's not good at the airports.  Dude, my bro has a place up in June Lake.  Ski season is now in session.  Ya brah   8 feet of snow bro


----------



## Desert Hound

Good read. Vaxx and kid related.









						Associated Press lying about consensus on COVID vaccines for children
					

On 15 December the Associated Press (AP), one of the world's premier wire services, ran a lengthy report titled




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> Most of my friends who trusted the first and even the second shot, are NOT getting their kids the shot and their not lining up for the booster.  That I can report on from my bunker.  Merry Christmas Mic PaPa


Many are wising up, unfortunately, still not enough. Too many sheep, need more sheep dogs and fathers to lead the way.

He is born! Bless you and yours.


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> Good read. Vaxx and kid related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Associated Press lying about consensus on COVID vaccines for children
> 
> 
> On 15 December the Associated Press (AP), one of the world's premier wire services, ran a lengthy report titled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.americanthinker.com


SMH, after reading the below quote from the article, if you let the government experiment with your HEALTHY AND/OR COVID RECOVERED kids, you have failed as a parent. FULL STOP!

"Consensus is clear among MDs and medical PhDs: following 20 months of exhaustive research, millions of patients treated, hundreds of clinical trials performed and scientific data shared worldwide, they conclude that healthy children and COVID recovered should be excluded from vaccine mandates and social restrictions."


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Good read. Vaxx and kid related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Associated Press lying about consensus on COVID vaccines for children
> 
> 
> On 15 December the Associated Press (AP), one of the world's premier wire services, ran a lengthy report titled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.americanthinker.com


" rainbow-colored Doritos are a gateway snack to introduce children to the joys of homosexuality" .


----------



## thirteenknots

kickingandscreaming said:


> "Cloth masks are little more than facial decorations. There's no place for them in light of Omicron," said CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and visiting professor of health policy and management at the George Washington University Milken Institute School of Public Health, on CNN Newsroom Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why you should upgrade your mask as the Omicron variant spreads | CNN
> 
> 
> As the Omicron variant spreads, it's time to upgrade from your cloth face masks. Experts explain why medical-grade masks -- such as surgical/disposable masks and N95 and KN95 respirators -- are better options now and what people should do with the cloth masks they already have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



CNN, the network that has a Pedo Virus running thru it's ranks.


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> Many are wising up, unfortunately, still not enough. Too many sheep, need more sheep dogs and fathers to lead the way.
> 
> *He is born! Bless you and yours.*


He is so Born bro.  I love Yeshua so much.  I can't wait when he rules this place.  We have no justice with humans.  Their all compromised man.  All we need is the real men to take a stand for honesty, openness and transparency.  I know I'm full of BS and one big hypocrite but aren't we all?  Come on man, 1000 years man and will will be with the King  Those who are invited will be stoked. Those who got their heads chopped off for Yeshua are automatically invited and those who are left alive when this all goes down are invited. The rest will come back and try again to learn the basics of love, truth and honesty. I'm either getting my head cut off or I will be alive when He returns. Either way, I want it bad and love God with all I got, heart, soul, mind and strentgh. Greatest command in the good book is to Love God. I love him to the moon and back. I'm really shocked with some fathers and with other fathers I'm not shocked with. Even when they lie and the cheat is in the light and for all to see, they still lie. It really is a language Mic PaPa. Someone asked me this Q the other day: *What does it mean that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44)?  *

My answer: Satan has told more lies to more people ((and even angels, little liar)) than any other being ever created. *His success depends on people believing his lies*. He has used everything from “little white lies” to huge, pants-on-fire whoppers to deceive folks. Adolph Hitler, a man who learned how to lie effectively, once said, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”

Whether a lie is small or large is not really the issue. *Lies are of the devil.* If you’ve lied even once, then, unless you repent, you will not enter heaven. The Bible teaches that _all_ liars “will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death” (Revelation 21:8). Proverbs 19:9 also teaches that anyone who lies will be punished.  Look, this is heavy language and I'm not all sure about where one goes when they meet death.  I believe the soul goes on to the next phase, which I have no idea what that will truly be like.  I will just say that lying is wrong and we ALL must make a deal during this next round with Yeshua to not lie anymore.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> " rainbow-colored Doritos are a gateway snack to introduce children to the joys of homosexuality" .


That's your takeaway? If you have grandkids, let's hope your influence is minimal.


----------



## MicPaPa

I'm all for some R&R at a casino card table with some disposable income, but gambling with ones kids or grandkids is some next-level sick shit.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> He is so Born bro.  I love Yeshua so much.  I can't wait when he rules this place.  We have no justice with humans.  Their all compromised man.  All we need is the real men to take a stand for honesty, openness and transparency.  I know I'm full of BS and one big hypocrite but aren't we all?  Come on man, 1000 years man and will will be with the King  Those who are invited will be stoked. Those who got their heads chopped off for Yeshua are automatically invited and those who are left alive when this all goes down are invited. The rest will come back and try again to learn the basics of love, truth and honesty. I'm either getting my head cut off or I will be alive when He returns. Either way, I want it bad and love God with all I got, heart, soul, mind and strentgh. Greatest command in the good book is to Love God. I love him to the moon and back. I'm really shocked with some fathers and with other fathers I'm not shocked with. Even when they lie and the cheat is in the light and for all to see, they still lie. It really is a language Mic PaPa. Someone asked me this Q the other day: *What does it mean that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44)?  *
> 
> My answer: Satan has told more lies to more people ((and even angels, little liar)) than any other being ever created. *His success depends on people believing his lies*. He has used everything from “little white lies” to huge, pants-on-fire whoppers to deceive folks. Adolph Hitler, a man who learned how to lie effectively, once said, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
> 
> Whether a lie is small or large is not really the issue. *Lies are of the devil.* If you’ve lied even once, then, unless you repent, you will not enter heaven. The Bible teaches that _all_ liars “will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death” (Revelation 21:8). Proverbs 19:9 also teaches that anyone who lies will be punished.  Look, this is heavy language and I'm not all sure about where one goes when they meet death.  I believe the soul goes on to the next phase, which I have no idea what that will truly be like.  I will just say that lying is wrong and we ALL must make a deal during this next round with Yeshua to not lie anymore.


In the absence of truth, evil fills the void.


----------



## thirteenknots

MicPaPa said:


> In the absence of truth, evil fills the void.



Very Very TRUE !

Merry Christmas !


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> I'm all for some R&R at a casino card table with some disposable income, but gambling with ones kids or grandkids is some next-level sick shit.


I'm still waiting for their next next level shit,  Folks got fired for no jab after they turned down free lotto tickets, cheese burgers, $75 on pay check.  No jab, no college for you.  Now their saying no jab=certain winter death.  What's the next level shit Mic PaPa?


----------



## thirteenknots

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/094/008/024/original/0aa46775f69e84b4.mp4
		





WATCH THIS !

THIS IS UNBELIEVEABLE.


----------



## Brav520

The Biden Administration Rejected an October Proposal for “Free Rapid Tests for the Holidays”
					

With omicron cases spreading like wildfire, the White House is finally taking steps to make free antigen tests available to all. But this fall, Vanity Fair has learned, it dismissed a bold plan to ramp up rapid testing ahead of the holidays. Frustrated experts explain how confusion, distrust...




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## met61

Speaking of unbelievable...I believe this is @Grace T.   neck of the woods. I'd say it's way past time to put politics aside and have some real conversations...you're being played!

More VC Nurses Blow Whistle on ‘Overwhelming’ Numbers of Heart Attacks, Clotting, Strokes - The Conejo Guardian


----------



## Multi Sport

Merry Christmas! We decided to go with the throwback stomach flu in our home for Christmas with three falling to floor to drive the porcelain bus so far.. My oldest, being the hipster he is, decided to be trendy and his household tested covid positive...for the third time. And yea, their vaxed. Stay safe!


----------



## Ellejustus

Multi Sport said:


> Merry Christmas! We decided to go with the throwback stomach flu in our home for Christmas with three falling to floor to drive the porcelain bus so far.. My oldest, being the hipster he is, decided to be trendy and his household tested covid positive...for the third time. And yea, their vaxed. Stay safe!


Merry Christmas to you to Multi Sport-  Sorry to hear about the stomach flu.  I thought it was eradicated.  Thanks for sharing truth.  Hope son feels better


----------



## Ellejustus

*"Even if you ((I)) should suffer for doing what is right, you are 100% blessed 
Do not FEAR their threats; do not be frighten."  Brother Peter some time AD.  *


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> " rainbow-colored Doritos are a gateway snack to introduce children to the joys of homosexuality" .


Nice way to avoid the subject


----------



## Desert Hound

He isn't all there.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474447451243298818


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Nice way to avoid the subject


Out beyond Breitbart -- 









						Interactive Chart | Ad Fontes Media
					

Interactive Media Bias Chart® Discover our Interactive Media Bias Chart to see where your favorite news sources fall on the reliability and bias spectrum. Use the search boxes to find sources that aren’t displayed by default. 0 Total sources Use search box to find sources not displayed by...




					adfontesmedia.com


----------



## Multi Sport

Make that four driving that porcelain bus. I'm actually just finishing up installing a new toilet in the MB.. hopefully I'm not driving that new bus later.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> He isn't all there.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474447451243298818


1. Guy who did this is disrespectful and an asshole. Completely inappropriate given the context. 
2. he isn’t all there. Left is trying to spin it that he was just trying to be a good guy and make light of it.  No way…he said he should f himself.  Then he asked about where the guy was calling from which you wouldn’t do after someone told you to f yourself…good guy or no…standard protocol is to move on as quickly as possible. He’s not just gone…way gone. 
3. She got it. Was po’d. Handled it as graciously as could be expected under the circumstances. 

all true at the same time.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> . Guy who did this is disrespectful and an asshole. Completely inappropriate given the context.


This is very true


----------



## Grace T.

I read dr atlas’ book a few hours before bed. It’s a good illuminating read. A few take aways (acknowledging it’s his view of things and there’s always another story):

-we had assumed it was fauci pulling the strings. It wasn’t. It was Birx and she and atlas hated each other
-he has a hard on for trump. Trump regretted the listening to fauci on the initial lockdowns
-fauci Is portrayed largely as a media whore, incensed being pushed away from the mics and the daily briefings but viewed his roll as trying to build some consensus on the task force
-redfield (of masks better than vaccines and if we all mask this goes away) is portrayed as a moron
-the other person responsible for the debacle is vp pence. Pence lost control of the task force, put birx in de factor charge of it, and as a result conflicting policies emerged from the White House and the task force. The two were working at cross purposes and pence was too nice or to weak to put it in order
-the White House is portrayed as incompetent, lacking the courage to disband the task force and more obsessed with the election than doing what Was right. He lays this at the feet of Kushner
-he likes de santis and credits their meeting to some of the policies de santis pursued
-he hates the media. Says they were out to torch the president and anyone associated with him (like atlas)
-he points out that among the 4 doctors as a health policy expert he was probably the most qualified to make recommendations.  He confirms none of the others were concerned with the cost of their policy recommends
-he alleges (without evidence only speculation) vaccines were delayed because of the election 
-it’s clear atlas was not a fighter and ill suited for the political battle he has wandered into. He was naive and didn’t have the personality (being far to prickly) or strength to do what needed to be done. His effectiveness was limited by his personality.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I read dr atlas’ book a few hours before bed. It’s a good illuminating read. A few take aways (acknowledging it’s his view of things and there’s always another story):
> 
> -we had assumed it was fauci pulling the strings. It wasn’t. It was Birx and she and atlas hated each other
> -he has a hard on for trump. Trump regretted the listening to fauci on the initial lockdowns
> -fauci Is portrayed largely as a media whore, incensed being pushed away from the mics and the daily briefings but viewed his roll as trying to build some consensus on the task force
> -redfield (of masks better than vaccines and if we all mask this goes away) is portrayed as a moron
> -the other person responsible for the debacle is vp pence. Pence lost control of the task force, put birx in de factor charge of it, and as a result conflicting policies emerged from the White House and the task force. The two were working at cross purposes and pence was too nice or to weak to put it in order
> -the White House is portrayed as incompetent, lacking the courage to disband the task force and more obsessed with the election than doing what Was right. He lays this at the feet of Kushner
> -he likes de santis and credits their meeting to some of the policies de santis pursued
> -he hates the media. Says they were out to torch the president and anyone associated with him (like atlas)
> -he points out that among the 4 doctors as a health policy expert he was probably the most qualified to make recommendations.  He confirms none of the others were concerned with the cost of their policy recommends
> -he alleges (without evidence only speculation) vaccines were delayed because of the election
> -it’s clear atlas was not a fighter and ill suited for the political battle he has wandered into. He was naive and didn’t have the personality (being far to prickly) or strength to do what needed to be done. His effectiveness was limited by his personality.


Did he have anything to say about this? --









						Open Letter re- SA-final 09-09-20 (R7)pp.pdf
					






					drive.google.com
				




How did he cover his suggestion that the people of Michigan should "Step Up" and resist their governor's covid policies because "Freedom Matters"?

Did he explain in any detail how his expertise in developing MRI techniques helped him detect coronavirus infections?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Did he have anything to say about this? --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open Letter re- SA-final 09-09-20 (R7)pp.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did he cover his suggestion that the people of Michigan should "Step Up" and resist their governor's covid policies because "Freedom Matters"?
> 
> Did he explain in any detail how his expertise in developing MRI techniques helped him detect coronavirus infections?


Beat me to it! “I’m no expert in the field but I did kiss the king’s ass!” An acknowledgment apropos to many in the previous admin.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> Beat me to it! “I’m no expert in the field but I did kiss the king’s ass!” An acknowledgment apropos to many in the previous admin.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Did he have anything to say about this? --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open Letter re- SA-final 09-09-20 (R7)pp.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did he cover his suggestion that the people of Michigan should "Step Up" and resist their governor's covid policies because "Freedom Matters"?
> 
> Did he explain in any detail how his expertise in developing MRI techniques helped him detect coronavirus infections?


He does not talk about Michigan in the book as far as I can recall

he does go into the mri thing. He alleges it’s a Nasty smear. He says in 2011 his specialty changed to health policy. He goes into extensive detail how. I haven’t seen the counter argument but standing on its own it’s pretty pursuasive. He alleges the smear/talking point began with faucibut concedes he doesn’t have evidence. He blames the White House staffs incompetence for not rebutting the smear. He argues that as a health policy experts he was more qualified to balance decisions than the other 3 (none of whom were epidemiologist) and whom lay people at the White House were afraid to challenge. He was very surprised that trump didn’t bring on an epidemiologist to sit on the task force and thought there should be more special advisors of various persuasions. He takes a hatchet job to birxs credentials, almost all of which had to do with aids.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> He does not talk about Michigan in the book as far as I can recall
> 
> he does go into the mri thing. He alleges it’s a Nasty smear. He says in 2011 his specialty changed to health policy. He goes into extensive detail how. I haven’t seen the counter argument but standing on its own it’s pretty pursuasive. He alleges the smear/talking point began with faucibut concedes he doesn’t have evidence. He blames the White House staffs incompetence for not rebutting the smear. He argues that as a health policy experts he was more qualified to balance decisions than the other 3 (none of whom were epidemiologist) and whom lay people at the White House were afraid to challenge. He was very surprised that trump didn’t bring on an epidemiologist to sit on the task force and thought there should be more special advisors of various persuasions. He takes a hatchet job to birxs credentials, almost all of which had to do with aids.


Ps. He mentions gottleib as someone who should have been brought back.  He claims there were a lot of epidemiologists other than the vocal ones labeled as fringe who disagreed with fauci but for their careers were afraid to come forward (fearing a hit would be put on them as Stanford faculty did to him).  One of the reasons it apparently didn’t happen (more outside experts helping) is because pence mistakenly believed birx was “maga through and through” (which in retrospect is hilarious).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> He does not talk about Michigan in the book as far as I can recall
> 
> he does go into the mri thing. He alleges it’s a Nasty smear. He says in 2011 his specialty changed to health policy. He goes into extensive detail how. I haven’t seen the counter argument but standing on its own it’s pretty pursuasive. He alleges the smear/talking point began with faucibut concedes he doesn’t have evidence. He blames the White House staffs incompetence for not rebutting the smear. He argues that as a health policy experts he was more qualified to balance decisions than the other 3 (none of whom were epidemiologist) and whom lay people at the White House were afraid to challenge. He was very surprised that trump didn’t bring on an epidemiologist to sit on the task force and thought there should be more special advisors of various persuasions. He takes a hatchet job to birxs credentials, almost all of which had to do with aids.


I don't see how pointing out his greatest professional accomplishment is a smear.  From his Stanford bio --

"Dr. Atlas is also the editor of the leading textbook in the field, the best‐selling Magnetic Resonance Imaging of the Brain and Spine, now in its 5th edition and officially translated from English into Mandarin, Spanish, and Portuguese. He has been editor, associate editor, and a member of the boards of numerous scientific journals and national and international scientific societies over the past three decades. His medical research centered on advanced applications of new MRI technologies in neurologic diseases. While Professor of Radiology and Chief of Neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center from 1998 until 2012 and during his previous faculty positions, Dr. Atlas trained over 100 neuroradiology fellows, many of whom are now leaders in the field throughout the world."

No one is objecting to his expertise in MRI techniques.  The criticism about his appointment is his lack of corresponding;y relevant knowledge in infectious diseases.  From a non-partisan distance, his appointment appeared to stem not so much from his professional expertise, but rather from his reliable politics.

One more question -- are you suggesting that Fauci is not a qualified epidemiologist?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't see how pointing out his greatest professional accomplishment is a smear.  From his Stanford bio --
> 
> "Dr. Atlas is also the editor of the leading textbook in the field, the best‐selling Magnetic Resonance Imaging of the Brain and Spine, now in its 5th edition and officially translated from English into Mandarin, Spanish, and Portuguese. He has been editor, associate editor, and a member of the boards of numerous scientific journals and national and international scientific societies over the past three decades. His medical research centered on advanced applications of new MRI technologies in neurologic diseases. While Professor of Radiology and Chief of Neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center from 1998 until 2012 and during his previous faculty positions, Dr. Atlas trained over 100 neuroradiology fellows, many of whom are now leaders in the field throughout the world."
> 
> No one is objecting to his expertise in MRI techniques.  The criticism about his appointment is his lack of corresponding;y relevant knowledge in infectious diseases.  From a non-partisan distance, his appointment appeared to stem not so much from his professional expertise, but rather from his reliable politics.
> 
> One more question -- are you suggesting that Fauci is not a qualified epidemiologist?


1. Fauci is not an epidemiologist. He’s an immunologist
2. I’m not suggesting anything
3. Atlas argues his background made fauci uniquely suited to head up warp speed but not the response to covid which required the background of someone in health policy who explores trade offs which fauci does not have. He also points out fauci was laser focused on vaccines and didnt really focus on treatments. 
4. One of atlas critiques is they did not have inputs from real epidemiologists.
5. Atlas lays out his health policy credentials there in the book. Again the radiologist thing he basically argues is a prior career
6. He doesn’t say whether he supports or disagrees with other magA policies. It is clear from the book he admires trump as a president (unclear if it’s because he’s trump or merely because he is the president or because trump agreed with him on covid). He thinks trump was ill served by pence and his staff on covid.
7.” from a non-partisan distance”. That’s funny. Back to comedy I see.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 1. Fauci is not an epidemiologist. He’s an immunologist
> 2. I’m not suggesting anything
> 3. Atlas argues his background made fauci uniquely suited to head up warp speed but not the response to covid which required the background of someone in health policy who explores trade offs which fauci does not have. He also points out fauci was laser focused on vaccines and didnt really focus on treatments.
> 4. One of atlas critiques is they did not have inputs from real epidemiologists.
> 5. Atlas lays out his health policy credentials there in the book. Again the radiologist thing he basically argues is a prior career
> 6. He doesn’t say whether he supports or disagrees with other magA policies. It is clear from the book he admires trump as a president (unclear if it’s because he’s trump or merely because he is the president or because trump agreed with him on covid). He thinks trump was ill served by pence and his staff on covid.
> 7.” from a non-partisan distance”. That’s funny. Back to comedy I see.


Oh 8. The big surprising claim for me is that fauci wasn’t in charge. It was birx who was the architect of everything. It was pence who patroned her. Fauci was focused on the vaccines, was focused on his own media appearances (which he went cowboy on without the blessing of the admin or birx) and to the extent he played a role in setting policy fauci seemed to view himself as birx’s consigliere


----------



## Ellejustus

Back to songs about the Gr8t One.  We love you Yeshua and thank you for saving us through Grace   I dedicate this song to my amazing half Cherokee and half Mayan wife.  She is so amazing and so full grace.  I love you to the moon and back babe   Were going to get through this.  She lurks from time to time I'm sure.  Thank you for giving me two wonderful children, my mother of my children.  You are my true love and God put us together.  My Scottish Highlander blood and the mix of my wife's blood is pure as you can get.  Have a great day you guys.  I will be sharing my favorite Christ songs that come to my heart today.  If anyone has a great song that goes deep in your soul, please share with us this Christmas.  Love you all and stay strong


----------



## Ellejustus

Word of the Day:  Wane

*Wane in a Sentence *

When the investigators ran out of leads, the intensity of the murder investigation started to wane.
John asked his wife for a divorce when his feelings for her started to wane.
Since sales have started to wane, the store is in danger of becoming unprofitable.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. Fauci is not an epidemiologist. He’s an immunologist
> 2. I’m not suggesting anything
> 3. Atlas argues his background made fauci uniquely suited to head up warp speed but not the response to covid which required the background of someone in health policy who explores trade offs which fauci does not have. He also points out fauci was laser focused on vaccines and didnt really focus on treatments.
> 4. One of atlas critiques is they did not have inputs from real epidemiologists.
> 5. Atlas lays out his health policy credentials there in the book. Again the radiologist thing he basically argues is a prior career
> 6. He doesn’t say whether he supports or disagrees with other magA policies. It is clear from the book he admires trump as a president (unclear if it’s because he’s trump or merely because he is the president or because trump agreed with him on covid). He thinks trump was ill served by pence and his staff on covid.
> 7.” from a non-partisan distance”. That’s funny. Back to comedy I see.


Fauci is not an epidemiologist?  Wasn't his pre-covid claim to fame his work combatting the AIDS/HIV epidemic?

I don't claim membership in any political party.  What is your definition of non-partisan?

I find it intriguing that your take from the book is that he admires t.  That reinforces my opinion of him that he is a partisan idiot.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Fauci is not an epidemiologist?  Wasn't his pre-covid claim to fame his work combatting the AIDS/HIV epidemic?
> 
> I don't claim membership in any political party.  What is your definition of non-partisan?
> 
> I find it intriguing that your take from the book is that he admires t.  That reinforces my opinion of him that he is a partisan idiot.


Working on aids doesn’t make fauci an epidemiologist.  It’s not his field. His field is immunology. Hence the vaccines. Basic stuff dude.

you are constantly circulating partisan talking points including the mri radiologist one. Your claim to be non partisan is laughable…which is why comedy is your strong suit.

finally I don’t think you want to go the aids route. Not exactly Fauci shining moment.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Working on aids doesn’t make fauci an epidemiologist.  It’s not his field. His field is immunology. Hence the vaccines. Basic stuff dude.
> 
> you are constantly circulating partisan talking points including the mri radiologist one. Your claim to be non partisan is laughable…which is why comedy is your strong suit.
> 
> finally I don’t think you want to go the aids route. Not exactly Fauci shining moment.


You don't have to be partisan to be critical of idiots and criminals in politics.  They exist in all parties and I have the freedom to criticize them all.

What anti-Fauci morsels do you have to show us regarding AIDS/HIV?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You don't have to be partisan to be critical of idiots and criminals in politics.  They exist in all parties and I have the freedom to criticize them all.
> 
> What anti-Fauci morsels do you have to show us regarding AIDS/HIV?


The nutters whole issue with Dr. Fauci is that he unapologetically stood back and let trump be trump (make an ass out of himself).


----------



## Brav520

Must have been reading the Atlantic









						COVID-positive Vermonters with no symptoms clog up ERs
					

Some Vermonters who are able to find antigen tests and then test positive are clogging up emergency rooms.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> The nutters whole issue with Dr. Fauci is that he unapologetically stood back and let trump be trump (make an ass out of himself).


The book belies this point. The task force and admin were working at cross purposes.  If anything the critique from the book is that trump failed to put his own house (and the vp) in order to articulate a consistent message. 


espola said:


> You don't have to be partisan to be critical of idiots and criminals in politics.  They exist in all parties and I have the freedom to criticize them all.
> 
> What anti-Fauci morsels do you have to show us regarding AIDS/HIV?


I’d believe this more if you were critical of both sides but you’ve never seemed to overlook a leftist talking point you didn’t like.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The book belies this point. The task force and admin were working at cross purposes.  If anything the critique from the book is that trump failed to put his own house (and the vp) in order to articulate a consistent message.
> 
> I’d believe this more if you were critical of both sides but you’ve never seemed to overlook a leftist talking point you didn’t like.


"Never seemed to overlook" is a real damnation.  It's not my fault that the overwhelming number of idiots and criminals in government the last few years have been t clones.  Also, I was among the first to state that Hillary was a bad choice for President.

Did you forget your response about Fauci and AIDS?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Never seemed to overlook" is a real damnation.  It's not my fault that the overwhelming number of idiots and criminals in government the last few years have been t clones.  Also, I was among the first to state that Hillary was a bad choice for President.
> 
> Did you forget your response about Fauci and AIDS?


I’m not going down that rabbit hole with you and don’t really feel like researching it today.  Suffice it to say fauci came under quite a bit if criticism for how he handled the aids crisis from all quarters both left and right


----------



## Ellejustus

My family and I had an amazing time last night.  It was fantastic and all you WHO are one boo hoo humbug, it was full of Yeshua and his love.  We all sang together and we all hugged each other.  Vax and non vax.  It was so beautiful.  Now the fearsome foursome is going to mediate together and give gr8t thanks to the ONE who make it all happen.  No one has a mask on today.  Time to go.  Love you guys and Merry Christmas and God Bless 

*CNN religious commentator advises unvaccinated people not to attend church*
*The White House told the unvaccinated last week they could be 'looking at a winter of severe illness and death'  Father Edward Beck*

"I don't think there's a reason to say I'm not going to get vaccinated, maybe for a health reason, then you can't come to church," he later added.

 Yep, I said it," he tweeted. "I don’t think unvaccinated people should be gathering in churches for Christmas Eve / Day Masses." 

Over the weekend DR. Fauci told Americans to rethink their family reunions by not inviting any unvaccinated relatives.

"If someone in your family isn’t vaccinated, should you ask them not to show up?"  Dr Fauci

How stupid this was and is to say and do to any family member.  If you voted or even thought of voted for t in 2016, then your no friend of mine and you best kneel now loser.  Remember when?  What a trip 2021 has been.  Anyone who followed these orders believes that t actually wanted people to go jump off a cliff the other day.  Ho Ho everyone and make it the best Christmas day ever.  Beach now, give thanks, grub up some Mexican food and then go home and relax and look at old home videos of my ds scoring touchdowns and my dd scoring goals in the glory days days.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not going down that rabbit hole with you and don’t really feel like researching it today.  Suffice it to say fauci came under quite a bit if criticism for how he handled the aids crisis from all quarters both left and right


No, he didn't.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No, he didn't.


Even the Wikipedia article discusses it


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Even the Wikipedia article discusses it


Which Wikipedia article?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Well, @Desert Hound, looks like the NBA has entered the "learn to live with it" stage. That's a bit different than last year. The NHL still hasn't reached that stage yet.

*** From article

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said earlier this week there were no plans to pause the season though numerous games had been postponed due to several COVID outbreaks plaguing teams.

"No plans right now to pause the season. We’ve of course looked at the options but frankly, we're having trouble coming up with what the logic would be behind pausing right now," Silver said on ESPN’s "NBA Today."

"As we look through these cases, literally ripping through the country right now – putting aside the rest of the world, I think we’re finding ourselves where we knew we were going to get to for the past several months and that is that this virus will not be eradicated, and we’re going to have to learn to live with it."









						LeBron James posts COVID meme as NBA deals with outbreaks: 'Help me out folks'
					

LeBron James appeared to be frustrated with the NBA’s COVID-19 situation on Thursday.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, @Desert Hound, looks like the NBA has entered the "learn to live with it" stage. That's a bit different than last year. The NHL still hasn't reached that stage yet.
> 
> *** From article
> 
> NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said earlier this week there were no plans to pause the season though numerous games had been postponed due to several COVID outbreaks plaguing teams.
> 
> "No plans right now to pause the season. We’ve of course looked at the options but frankly, we're having trouble coming up with what the logic would be behind pausing right now," Silver said on ESPN’s "NBA Today."
> 
> "As we look through these cases, literally ripping through the country right now – putting aside the rest of the world, I think we’re finding ourselves where we knew we were going to get to for the past several months and that is that this virus will not be eradicated, and we’re going to have to learn to live with it."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LeBron James posts COVID meme as NBA deals with outbreaks: 'Help me out folks'
> 
> 
> LeBron James appeared to be frustrated with the NBA’s COVID-19 situation on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Good.

Pretty soon we will hit a preference cascade where most people will move on, not put up with restrictions and learn to live with the virus.


----------



## Multi Sport

Multi Sport said:


> Make that four driving that porcelain bus. I'm actually just finishing up installing a new toilet in the MB.. hopefully I'm not driving that new bus later.


Five and counting.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Multi Sport said:


> Five and counting.


Ugh. Hang in there.


----------



## espola

Advice from 1918 --


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> The book belies this point. The task force and admin were working at cross purposes.  If anything the critique from the book is that trump failed to put his own house (and the vp) in order to articulate a consistent message.
> 
> I’d believe this more if you were critical of both sides but you’ve never seemed to overlook a leftist talking point you didn’t like.


Fact Check: TRUE


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## espola

espola said:


> Which Wikipedia article?


Apparently, Grace has realized she stumbled on the Fauci/AIDS comment and is just going to ignore it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Apparently, Grace has realized she stumbled on the Fauci/AIDS comment and is just going to ignore it.


This is just from the first 2 pages of a google search.  Note I'm not passing on the validity of the criticism (since I don't know enough about the circumstances surrounded that era and have not deep dived)....only that it exists and that the criticism is from both sides of the aisle.









						Fauci Was Duplicitous on the AIDS Epidemic Too
					

"If you want to see an end to the lockdown madness, the ongoing destruction of human lives and livelihoods, and the unprecedented government failures that have come to characterize our daily routines for the last year, the lessons of this administrator’s performance should be obvious. It’s time...




					www.aier.org
				












						Anthony Fauci - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Opinion | Unlearned AIDS Lessons for Covid
					

In the 1980s, Fauci and Redfield sowed fear about a heterosexual epidemic that never happened.




					www.wsj.com
				












						Video Resurfaces of Fauci Warning ‘Household Contact’ with AIDS Patients Could Put Kids at Risk
					

His stubborn focus on producing a vaccine rather than therapeutics was of particular frustration to activists and other scientists.




					www.yahoo.com
				








__





						An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci | AIDS Education Posters
					

"You are responsible for all government funded AIDS treatment research. In the name of right, you make decisions that cost the lives of others. I call the decisions you are making acts of murder." Larry Kramer "An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci" San Francisco Examiner, June 26, 1988 Anthony...




					aep.lib.rochester.edu
				












						PETA Statement: What Fauci Fails to Admit in His 'World AIDS Day' Statement | PETA
					

Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day statement Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day...




					www.peta.org
				













						Fauci pushed back on Sen. Ron Johnson's claims that he 'overhyped' the AIDS crisis and COVID-19
					

"Overhyping AIDS that's killed over 750,000 Americans and 36 million people worldwide? How do you overhype that?" Fauci asked.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This is just from the first 2 pages of a google search.  Note I'm not passing on the validity of the criticism (since I don't know enough about the circumstances surrounded that era and have not deep dived)....only that it exists and that the criticism is from both sides of the aisle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Was Duplicitous on the AIDS Epidemic Too
> 
> 
> "If you want to see an end to the lockdown madness, the ongoing destruction of human lives and livelihoods, and the unprecedented government failures that have come to characterize our daily routines for the last year, the lessons of this administrator’s performance should be obvious. It’s time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aier.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Unlearned AIDS Lessons for Covid
> 
> 
> In the 1980s, Fauci and Redfield sowed fear about a heterosexual epidemic that never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Resurfaces of Fauci Warning ‘Household Contact’ with AIDS Patients Could Put Kids at Risk
> 
> 
> His stubborn focus on producing a vaccine rather than therapeutics was of particular frustration to activists and other scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci | AIDS Education Posters
> 
> 
> "You are responsible for all government funded AIDS treatment research. In the name of right, you make decisions that cost the lives of others. I call the decisions you are making acts of murder." Larry Kramer "An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci" San Francisco Examiner, June 26, 1988 Anthony...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aep.lib.rochester.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PETA Statement: What Fauci Fails to Admit in His 'World AIDS Day' Statement | PETA
> 
> 
> Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day statement Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.peta.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci pushed back on Sen. Ron Johnson's claims that he 'overhyped' the AIDS crisis and COVID-19
> 
> 
> "Overhyping AIDS that's killed over 750,000 Americans and 36 million people worldwide? How do you overhype that?" Fauci asked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Here is the entire HIV/AIDS section of the Wikipedia article you cited --

*HIV/AIDS epidemic*

In a 2020 interview with _The Guardian_, Fauci remarked, "My career and my identity has really been defined by HIV."[23] He was one of the leading researchers during the AIDS epidemic in the early 1980s.[24] In 1981, he and his team of researchers began looking for a vaccine or treatment for this novel virus, though they would meet a number of obstacles.[25] In October 1988, protesters came to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Fauci, who had become the institute's director in 1984, bore the brunt of the anger from the LGBTQ+ community who were largely ignored by the government.[26][27]

Leading AIDS activist Larry Kramer attacked Fauci relentlessly in the media.[28] He called him an "incompetent idiot" and a "pill-pushing" tool of the medical establishment. Fauci did not have control over drug approval though many people felt he was not doing enough. Fauci did make an effort in the late 1980s to reach out to the LGBTQ+ community in New York and San Francisco to find ways he and the NIAID could find a solution.[26] Though Fauci was initially admonished for his treatment of the AIDS epidemic, his work in the community was eventually acknowledged. Kramer, who had spent years hating Fauci for his treatment of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, eventually called him "the only true and great hero" among government officials during the AIDS crisis.[29][26]

Political commentator Helen Andrews defended Fauci's actions during the epidemic in a 2021 article, writing:



> The idea that Fauci was "wrong" about A.I.D.S., which some of his contemporary opponents repeat, is unfair. His most notorious error was a 1983 paper suggesting "routine close contact, as within a family household," might spread the disease, but it was an understandable mistake given what was known at the time and he corrected it within a year, lightning speed by the standards of academic publishing. He behaved more responsibly than some of his peers when it came to speculating about a heterosexual A.I.D.S. epidemic around the corner. He was not one of the hysteria-mongers—though he did benefit from the hysteria when negotiating budgets with Congress.[30]


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Open Letter re- SA-final 09-09-20 (R7)pp.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com


No question that Atlas is a Trump fanboy, but this letter is hardly settled science.  Most of the points are slightly to greatly exaggerated.  Definitely looking at things through rose colored glasses and not from an unbiased medical standpoint.  Looks like a medical pissing match more than anything else.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## espola

watfly said:


> No question that Atlas is a Trump fanboy, but this letter is hardly settled science.  Most of the points are slightly to greatly exaggerated.  Definitely looking at things through rose colored glasses and not from an unbiased medical standpoint.  Looks like a medical pissing match more than anything else.


What did they get wrong?


----------



## Ellejustus

T-Mobile told my son and I no entry without a mask today.  My son gave me that look like "please Papa, let's just go and please dont cause a seen."  I gave the employee the look and I had to ask, "Do you have any extra masks for your customers?" and nice man said, "yes."  It was a great time.  Dude told me under his breath how lame it is to make ask people to wear a mask.  We both laughed and he told me, "you can keep it under your nose."  I told him thanks so much and we made each others day better.  My son told me I have changed and he was happy as well.  I told the worker how much I appreciated him and how this must be hard to have to tell grown adults to put a mask on or no service.  He said you have no idea.  I bet he quits soon.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> This is just from the first 2 pages of a google search.  Note I'm not passing on the validity of the criticism (since I don't know enough about the circumstances surrounded that era and have not deep dived)....only that it exists and that the criticism is from both sides of the aisle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Was Duplicitous on the AIDS Epidemic Too
> 
> 
> "If you want to see an end to the lockdown madness, the ongoing destruction of human lives and livelihoods, and the unprecedented government failures that have come to characterize our daily routines for the last year, the lessons of this administrator’s performance should be obvious. It’s time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aier.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Unlearned AIDS Lessons for Covid
> 
> 
> In the 1980s, Fauci and Redfield sowed fear about a heterosexual epidemic that never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Resurfaces of Fauci Warning ‘Household Contact’ with AIDS Patients Could Put Kids at Risk
> 
> 
> His stubborn focus on producing a vaccine rather than therapeutics was of particular frustration to activists and other scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci | AIDS Education Posters
> 
> 
> "You are responsible for all government funded AIDS treatment research. In the name of right, you make decisions that cost the lives of others. I call the decisions you are making acts of murder." Larry Kramer "An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci" San Francisco Examiner, June 26, 1988 Anthony...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aep.lib.rochester.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PETA Statement: What Fauci Fails to Admit in His 'World AIDS Day' Statement | PETA
> 
> 
> Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day statement Please see PETA Senior Vice President Kathy Guillermo’s statement in response to Dr. Anthony Fauci’s glaring omission in his World AIDS Day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.peta.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci pushed back on Sen. Ron Johnson's claims that he 'overhyped' the AIDS crisis and COVID-19
> 
> 
> "Overhyping AIDS that's killed over 750,000 Americans and 36 million people worldwide? How do you overhype that?" Fauci asked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


If you keep babying him, he'll never learn to fend for himself


----------



## Grace T.

Vinay Prasad's breakdown of the numbers in the nature study on myocarditis.  It appears for men under 40 the rate of myocarditis for Pfizer dose 2 &3 and all moderna all doses is greater than after COVID infection.  Now, men in this age group may have other risk profiles that makes taking the vaccine advisable, but it does mean the vaccines for some may court a more substantial risk than natural infection, particularly athletes.  But it means, particularly for teens for the Pfizer and for other young men and mrna vaccines, the vaccines (particularly if they do not substantially curb community spread) should NOT be mandated.  It's really problematic that the US does not have other vaccine choices for the population in general and for young men in particular (the FDA recently having taken steps to disfavor the J&J vaccine).

The moderna 2nd vaccine in particular seems to pose substantial risks , which is why some countries have said it is contraindicated for young men.  If this holds up, the US public health authorities are doing a great disservice in young men by allowing moderna to continue for this age group, and for pushing moderna boosters without further investigation.  If the data is correct, this is really almost criminal that they are allowing this to continue.  Out of all the errors public health has made throughout this, if the numbers are correct, if they ignore this it will have been the worst offense they have committed.  We're supposed to all be about the data and science no???











						UK Now Reports Myocarditis stratified by Age & Sex After Vaccine Or Sars-cov-2
					

Nature Medicine paper revisited: And it is shocking




					vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

Ellejustus said:


> T-Mobile told my son and I no entry without a mask today.  My son gave me that look like "please Papa, let's just go and please dont cause a seen."  I gave the employee the look and I had to ask, "Do you have any extra masks for your customers?" and nice man said, "yes."  It was a great time.  Dude told me under his breath how lame it is to make ask people to wear a mask.  We both laughed and he told me, "you can keep it under your nose."  I told him thanks so much and we made each others day better.  My son told me I have changed and he was happy as well.  I told the worker how much I appreciated him and how this must be hard to have to tell grown adults to put a mask on or no service.  He said you have no idea.  I bet he quits soon.


I had to go into the T-Mobile store (for some reason they blocked my credit card...they keep claiming its my bank but my bank has investigated and they say it's a vendor problem...called online help but they couldn't fix it so they sent me to the store...which was idiotic because the store just called online help which said they couldn't fix it).  Every customer in the store (about 5 of them) had their masks under their nose when I walked in.  Maybe it's a t-mobile thing.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Vinay Prasad's breakdown of the numbers in the nature study on myocarditis.  It appears for men under 40 the rate of myocarditis for Pfizer dose 2 &3 and all moderna all doses is greater than after COVID infection.  Now, men in this age group may have other risk profiles that makes taking the vaccine advisable, but it does mean the vaccines for some may court a more substantial risk than natural infection, particularly athletes.  But it means, particularly for teens for the Pfizer and for other young men and mrna vaccines, the vaccines (particularly if they do not substantially curb community spread) should NOT be mandated.  It's really problematic that the US does not have other vaccine choices for the population in general and for young men in particular (the FDA recently having taken steps to disfavor the J&J vaccine).
> 
> The moderna 2nd vaccine in particular seems to pose substantial risks , which is why some countries have said it is contraindicated for young men.  If this holds up, the US public health authorities are doing a great disservice in young men by allowing moderna to continue for this age group, and for pushing moderna boosters without further investigation.  If the data is correct, this is really almost criminal that they are allowing this to continue.  Out of all the errors public health has made throughout this, if the numbers are correct, if they ignore this it will have been the worst offense they have committed.  We're supposed to all be about the data and science no???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK Now Reports Myocarditis stratified by Age & Sex After Vaccine Or Sars-cov-2
> 
> 
> Nature Medicine paper revisited: And it is shocking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com


Career contrarian.









						Did Vinay Prasad need to mention the Nazis to make a point on the U.S. pandemic response? - The Cancer Letter
					

Vinay Prasad might well have made his contrarian points without invoking the specter of the Third Reich. He didn’t have to go there—but he did. Voluntarily. Prasad, an oncologist and associate professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at UCSF, likes a good Twitter fight. He...




					cancerletter.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Career contrarian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Vinay Prasad need to mention the Nazis to make a point on the U.S. pandemic response? - The Cancer Letter
> 
> 
> Vinay Prasad might well have made his contrarian points without invoking the specter of the Third Reich. He didn’t have to go there—but he did. Voluntarily. Prasad, an oncologist and associate professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at UCSF, likes a good Twitter fight. He...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cancerletter.com


I thought you hated ads?  So you attack him as a career contrarian instead of attacking the data itself. Got it

ps. I love the comedy. You do so make me laugh. I don’t think the 3 trolls are one and the same but if they are this is by far your best persona.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I thought you hated ads?  So you attack him as a career contrarian instead of attacking the data itself. Got it
> 
> ps. I love the comedy. You do so make me laugh. I don’t think the 3 trolls are one and the same but if they are this is by far your best persona.


Did you read the linked article?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Did you read the linked article?


Yes it mentioned nothing about the data. Just some irrelevant debate whether his characterization of covid policies as fascist is valid. You are attacking the presenter not the data which is something you always claim to dislike.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes it mentioned nothing about the data. Just some irrelevant debate whether his characterization of covid policies as fascist is valid. You are attacking the presenter not the data which is something you always claim to dislike.


Getting back to the article -- when was the last time you saw a technical report with exclamation points?  The article was full of conclusions without much data, presented in a way that his final statements were predictable after reading the first paragraph.  Maybe I should have spelled that out before quoting what serious clinicians think of him.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Getting back to the article -- when was the last time you saw a technical report with exclamation points?  The article was full of conclusions without much data, presented in a way that his final statements were predictable after reading the first paragraph.  Maybe I should have spelled that out before quoting what serious clinicians think of him.


Funny.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Getting back to the article -- when was the last time you saw a technical report with exclamation points?  The article was full of conclusions without much data, presented in a way that his final statements were predictable after reading the first paragraph.  Maybe I should have spelled that out before quoting what serious clinicians think of him.


A more sober examination --









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Funny.


Realistic.  The author has a history of making outrageous statements, which bears directly on his credibility.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Realistic.  The author has a history of making outrageous statements, which bears directly on his credibility.


Another chuckle. You are doing exactly what you claim to hate. Noted.


----------



## dad4

Link to the more serious paper on the same topic.



			https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0.pdf
		


All of these are being phrased as how many adverse events per million patients.  Overall it is 1 or 2 per million, depending on the vaccine.  Risk from the virus is around 40 per million.   The next question is to do the same analysis for men 16-25.

Perfectly reasonable question for CDC and NIH.   They may well recommend that we stop giving Moderna to men under 40. 

Totally stupid thing to politicize, though.  Prasad is arguing about whether it is 16 or 160 non-fatal events per ten million patients.  California has already had 1.6 million covid cases and 1278 covid _deaths_ among the 10 million people aged 17-34.  The vaccine is the smaller risk in this picture, even among men under 40.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Link to the more serious paper on the same topic.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> All of these are being phrased as how many adverse events per million patients.  Overall it is 1 or 2 per million, depending on the vaccine.  Risk from the virus is around 40 per million.   The next question is to do the same analysis for men 16-25.
> 
> Perfectly reasonable question for CDC and NIH.   They may well recommend that we stop giving Moderna to men under 40.
> 
> Totally stupid thing to politicize, though.  Prasad is arguing about whether it is 16 or 160 non-fatal events per ten million patients.  California has already had 1.6 million covid cases and 1278 covid _deaths_ among the 10 million people aged 17-34.  The vaccine is the smaller risk in this picture, even among men under 40.


This is a reasonable and well thought out critique unlike espolas

three notes back:
1. It doesn’t speak as to whether different vaccines should be used for the under 40. It also doesn’t speak to the question of why we don’t have other vaccines for this population when az and novovax should both be pursued as options given the problem
2. particularly if there is no substantial reduction in community spread, it undermines the question of mandates.  Whether to take such risks (either with the vaccine or the virus) should be a question of discussion between doctors and their patients so the patient can make the ultimate decision (particularly if there are no other options beyond moderna and Pfizer)
3. In particular it negates the need for a booster shot in this group if the booster does not provide additional support against severe disease in this population (which when you get down to teens the risk is especially negligible). But instead we have colleges around the us that are requiring the boosters for men this age and it should give us pause before extending to high school.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Link to the more serious paper on the same topic.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> All of these are being phrased as how many adverse events per million patients.  Overall it is 1 or 2 per million, depending on the vaccine.  Risk from the virus is around 40 per million.   The next question is to do the same analysis for men 16-25.
> 
> Perfectly reasonable question for CDC and NIH.   They may well recommend that we stop giving Moderna to men under 40.
> 
> Totally stupid thing to politicize, though.  Prasad is arguing about whether it is 16 or 160 non-fatal events per ten million patients.  California has already had 1.6 million covid cases and 1278 covid _deaths_ among the 10 million people aged 17-34.  The vaccine is the smaller risk in this picture, even among men under 40.


Ps the nature article was posted by someone (or a reference to it) a few days back. It’s a preprint. What happened is the scientific community ask for a release of the numbers. The reference I posted was a critique of the released numbers.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This is a reasonable and well thought out critique unlike espolas
> 
> three notes back:
> 1. It doesn’t speak as to whether different vaccines should be used for the under 40. It also doesn’t speak to the question of why we don’t have other vaccines for this population when az and novovax should both be pursued as options given the problem
> 2. particularly if there is no substantial reduction in community spread, it undermines the question of mandates.  Whether to take such risks (either with the vaccine or the virus) should be a question of discussion between doctors and their patients so the patient can make the ultimate decision (particularly if there are no other options beyond moderna and Pfizer)
> 3. In particular it negates the need for a booster shot in this group if the booster does not provide additional support against severe disease in this population (which when you get down to teens the risk is especially negligible). But instead we have colleges around the us that are requiring the boosters for men this age and it should give us pause before extending to high school.


Some factors for your ongoing cost/benefit analysis:  The inflammations and arrhythmias cited are temporary.  Death from covid is permanent.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Another chuckle. You are doing exactly what you claim to hate. Noted.


What I "claim to hate" is ad hominems based on lies.  Discussing an author's posting history is appropriate when there is reason to believe that he is following a political pathway rather than medical logic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Another chuckle. You are doing exactly what you claim to hate. Noted.


Au contraire as you once again hold up highly partisan hyperbole in lieu of serious research. Then at at some point you will in fact circle back and attempt to use it as confirmation for what you will try to pass as “your opinion”.
The cut & paste dizzy school of spin.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> I had to go into the T-Mobile store (for some reason they blocked my credit card...they keep claiming its my bank but my bank has investigated and they say it's a vendor problem...called online help but they couldn't fix it so they sent me to the store...which was idiotic because the store just called online help which said they couldn't fix it).  Every customer in the store (about 5 of them) had their masks under their nose when I walked in.  Maybe it's a t-mobile thing.


Well, I listened to my amazing son and bought a box of masks so I don't have to ask for a mask.  That was his advise and it was genius.  My wife got asked three times yesterday to put a mask on.  It's on folks.  This time I will play with them and obey.  It's all about the mask and the cases on the rise again Grace.  They pivot better then any group I have ever met in my life.  They lie to your face and cheat in front of you better then anyone I know and nothing you can do.  It's past to no return to normal.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What I "claim to hate" is ad hominems based on lies.  Discussing an author's posting history is appropriate when there is reason to believe that he is following a political pathway rather than medical logic.


Oh this is an interesting revisionism. Noted.  So if I were to discuss your posting history by noting you are a moron when there is reason to believe you are lost rather than understanding something that’s totally ok. Got it. 

this really is comedy gold.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Au contraire as you once again hold up highly partisan hyperbole in lieu of serious research. Then at at some point you will in fact circle back and attempt to use it as confirmation for what you will try to pass as “your opinion”.
> The cut & paste dizzy school of spin.


Let me run this one through my Orwellian fact checker
“Au contraire”= you are right but I want to sound self important
“As you once again”= Espola just told me this is fine
“Hold up highly partisan hyperbole”= I don’t like the data so I’m not going to attack that so I’m going to attack the author
“In lieu of serious research”= how dare this peon challenge one of the experts I like by point out what their own numbers say and even though it agrees with some of the conclusions reached by the Europeans
“Circle back”= I love jen
“Use it as confirmation”=even though you qualified it with being subject to the numbers being confirmed. 
“for what you try to pass as your opinion”= you aren’t entitled to have one
“The cut and paste school of dizzy spin”=I don’t like it when others spin but when dad4, Espola and I get all ruffled by someone pointing out an issue with numbers that’s just fun and dandy.

this thing really is a wonder. How I survived all these years without it.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Some factors for your ongoing cost/benefit analysis:  The inflammations and arrhythmias cited are temporary.  Death from covid is permanent.


Talk about spin and talking points. Again it depends on the age group. For a healthy teen the risk of death is negligible. For someone in their 20s without cormorbidities same. For someone in their 30s it’s much more tricky since there is a small but very real risk.

that’s why given there is little community benefit the discussion should be had between patient and doctor.  The doctor may advise it’s warranted. They may advise it’s not. There’s also some things we can do to minimize risk in this group: no boosters, different vaccines, no moderna, space out injections longer and/or aspirate. These alternatives should be investigated.  But it does mean no mandate which is why y’all are freaking out


----------



## Ellejustus

*Fauci says to cancel New Year's Eve parties, as millions struggle for normalcy nearly two years into pandemic*
*Amid young adult mental health crisis, Fauci says to stay away from normalcy of New Year's Eve parties: 'Not this year'*

"I have been telling people consistently that if you're vaccinated and boosted and you have a family setting, in the home with family and relatives," it's okay to gather, Fauci continued. "But when you're talking about a New Year's Eve party, we have 30, 40, 50 people celebrating. You do not know the status of their vaccination, I would recommend strongly stay away from that this year." 

"It's the crushing impact that our COVID policies have had on kids and young children… even teenagers," CBS News National Legal Correspondent said on "Face the Nation" Sunday when asked what she thinks is the biggest underreported story of 2021. "They have sacrificed the most… The risk of suicide attempts among girls, now up 51% this year. Black kids nearly twice as likely as White kids to die by suicide. School closures, lockdown, cancellation of sports."  

Nearly a third of adults who took the online August/COVID Resilience Survey conducted by The Harris Poll said sometimes they are so stressed about the pandemic that they struggle to make basic decisions and more than a third of them said it has been more stressful to make day-to-day decisions and major life decisions in comparison to life before the pandemic. Sixty-three percent of young adults said uncertainty about the near future causes them stress and around half said the pandemic had made planning for the future feel impossible.

Yet Fauci said for those folks, the normalcy of a New Year's Eve party should not be in their plans.  Dr. F says basically too bad, "There will be other years to do that, but not this year," Fauci told CNN.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Oh this is an interesting revisionism. Noted.  So if I were to discuss your posting history by noting you are a moron when there is reason to believe you are lost rather than understanding something that’s totally ok. Got it.
> 
> this really is comedy gold.


You don’t/can’t/won’t allow your set to see it so I will explain if you don’t mind. You continue to use your own opinion as the citation you refer to as back up for your opinion.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You don’t/can’t/won’t allow your set to see it so I will explain if you don’t mind. You continue to use your own opinion as the citation you refer to as back up for your opinion.


I post a variety of things of interest much of which you and your set discount as not one of your experts and fringe if it disagrees with your narrative. Then when something like the Bangladesh mask study come out you guys, despite all its flaws and the criticisms, try to take it to a new level by claiming it’s proof positive of your narrative. But you guys here are doing the exact opposite…rather than rebut the numbers or the suggested conclusions you guys have gone the route either of misdirection (because you can’t abide that if true it’s another nail in the mandate coffin) or you do things like attack the author or the poster. Sad but this appears to be the game plan.


----------



## Desert Hound

Well this should be the end of mandating vaxxes. How frequently must one get it now?


_New data from the UK indicates that the effectiveness of Pfizer vaccine booster shots in preventing symptomatic COVID-19 as a result of the Omicron variant drops considerably within 10 weeks of receiving the inoculation.

But it also showed that protection afforded by Moderna boosters remained relatively strong for a longer period.

The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) reviewed 68,489 Omicron cases in the country. It assessed that Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were around 70 percent effective at preventing symptomatic disease 2-4 weeks after getting a third shot (down from some 90% effective against the previously dominant Delta variant)


With Pfizer boosters, this dropped to 45% by 10 weeks,

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-agency-pfizer-boosters-ability-to-prevent-symptomatic-covid-wanes-within-weeks/_


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Talk about spin and talking points.


It's a Borg Collective of Trolls - or 1 guy. The practical difference is meaningless.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's a Borg Collective of Trolls - or 1 guy. The practical difference is meaningless.


It’s a sign when the 3+ dad4 freak out about something. The normal reaction to something like that would be “interesting but here’s the problems with that”.  Instead, because it challenges the narrative, what we get is their little freak out.  It tends to signify they consider a particular issue of danger to the narrative so it just causes me to pay attention more and put it in the “this is interesting” bucket instead of the “this may be nothing” bucket.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> It’s a sign when the 3+ dad4 freak out about something. The normal reaction to something like that would be “interesting but here’s the problems with that”.  Instead, because it challenges the narrative, what we get is their little freak out.  It tends to signify they consider a particular issue of danger to the narrative so it just causes me to pay attention more and put it in the “this is interesting” bucket instead of the “this may be nothing” bucket.


It's all they got left Grace T.  All jabbed in so they just twist and turn and move a goal post here and then move one over here.  Cases everywhere now, shut the airports down, shut down certain colleges ((I guess only some teams have Covid)) s not to spread Omicron.  They have nowhere to go now and nowhere to run.  No more gasoline and no time to run.  Backs up against a wall they cannot climb.  No rope no nothing.  They went all in with jabs and booster.  Now booster is only good for a few weeks.  I think a booster every two months is coming for those who are going down with the booster ship.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It’s a sign when the 3+ dad4 freak out about something. The normal reaction to something like that would be “interesting but here’s the problems with that”.  Instead, because it challenges the narrative, what we get is their little freak out.  It tends to signify they consider a particular issue of danger to the narrative so it just causes me to pay attention more and put it in the “this is interesting” bucket instead of the “this may be nothing” bucket.


Every. Single. Time.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It’s a sign when the 3+ dad4 freak out about something. The normal reaction to something like that would be “interesting but here’s the problems with that”.  Instead, because it challenges the narrative, what we get is their little freak out.  It tends to signify they consider a particular issue of danger to the narrative so it just causes me to pay attention more and put it in the “this is interesting” bucket instead of the “this may be nothing” bucket.


You post twenty times about a myocarditis risk that is smaller than the risk from a short car trip.  Then you accuse _others_ of freaking out?

Got it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You post twenty times about a myocarditis risk that is smaller than the risk from a short car trip.  Then you accuse _others_ of freaking out?
> 
> Got it.


the difference is people get to make the choice about the short term car risk.  It’s about the mandate not the vaccine (particularly the colleges mandating boosters)
A. Doesn’t mean the vaccine is not warranted for some in this age group
B. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be taking steps to mitigate

and it’s your freak out that’s keeping the issue alive here. I would have been content with an “interesting but Here’s what’s wrong with the numbers” but that’s not what we got. Instead we get this Little freak out from you and yours. I’m just responding to y’all and would have been perfectly content leaving it with the original post.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> It's all they got left Grace T.  All jabbed in so they just twist and turn and move a goal post here and then move one over here.  Cases everywhere now, shut the airports down, shut down certain colleges ((I guess only some teams have Covid)) s not to spread Omicron.  They have nowhere to go now and nowhere to run.  No more gasoline and no time to run.  Backs up against a wall they cannot climb.  No rope no nothing.  They went all in with jabs and booster.  Now booster is only good for a few weeks.  I think a booster every two months is coming for those who are going down with the booster ship.


Hound gave you the numbers for all symptomatic infections.  That includes anyone with a mild case of the sniffles.  Good to know, but we dont care about the sniffles.  We care about hospitalizations and deaths.

If you look at hospitalization numbers, unvaccinated people are six times as likely to end up hospitalized for covid, and 13 times as likely to die from covid.  

So, 45% effective against the sniffles.  83% and 92% effective against the important stuff.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Hound gave you the numbers for all symptomatic infections.  That includes anyone with a mild case of the sniffles.  Good to know, but we dont care about the sniffles.  We care about hospitalizations and deaths.
> 
> If you look at hospitalization numbers, unvaccinated people are six times as likely to end up hospitalized for covid, and 13 times as likely to die from covid.
> 
> So, 45% effective against the sniffles.  83% and 92% effective against the important stuff.


This is an argument (and a good one) for at risk people who arent sure they’ve had it to get the vaxx.  It’s not an argument for people who have had it or people who are at miniscule risk to get it.   It’s also not an argument to mandate it.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> This is an argument (and a good one) for at risk people who arent sure they’ve had it to get the vaxx.  It’s not an argument for people who have had it or people who are at miniscule risk to get it.   It’s also not an argument to mandate it.


They conflate the two, hence why we're labeled anti-vaxxers by some.

Is the idea that we can vaccinate our way to herd immunity basically dead (given the current vaccines)?


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> the difference is people get to make the choice about the short term car risk.  It’s about the mandate not the vaccine (particularly the colleges mandating boosters)


"Boom" "Bang" "Pow" and a "Bingo" for that smack back take.  Gr8t job Grace T.  "Get your ass in the short car drive now and risk your life like the rest of us."


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> They conflate the two, hence why we're labeled anti-vaxxers by some.
> 
> Is the idea that we can vaccinate our way to herd immunity basically dead (given the current vaccines)?


Maybe it's a different anti-vaxx varietal?  Team Confused is against mandates, or is certainly fearful of them (Team Reason is not pro-mandate). I think in order for Team Confused to make a case against mandates they need to argue that the vaccine isn't effective and people shouldn't need to get it. This, in turn, comes off as anti-vaxx. 

Much of the outrage to @Grace T.'s "research" is the regularity in referencing quacks.  It literally happens over and over again.  Grace has slightly above average intelligence and knows better.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hey look, it's Seven of Nine creating a Team of 1 - Not pro-mandate but not because of vaccine effectiveness. Of course, if his reading comprehension was any better he'd realize most of the non-mandate posters on here have felt that way long ago. My apologies to the "real" Seven of Nine who was obviously sharper than this version.


----------



## Ellejustus

Thank you California and Governor Newsom for all you have done for me and my family.  I mean that 100%.  The good, bad and ugly is what makes us all great in the State.  Over coming adversity together is what makes me stay.  I believe in the people of California.  Did I get everything I wanted this year?  No!  Did my wife? Nope!  How about my dd?  Not at all.  My son got what he wanted and I'm 100% happy for him.  I watched this video and I can say good has come through all this and I want to personally thank the Gov and the State.  I got a job I'm starting Jan 4th, 2022, the same day my dd turns 18.  I can't share what this adventurous teenager is going to do on her big day, but it's not something I have ever done and I'm way too scared to do it.  I got my mask and I will stay home for New Years Eve with my wife.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Au contraire as you once again hold up highly partisan hyperbole in lieu of serious research. Then at at some point you will in fact circle back and attempt to use it as confirmation for what you will try to pass as “your opinion”.
> The cut & paste dizzy school of spin.


Fitting


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> the difference is people get to make the choice about the short term car risk.  It’s about the mandate not the vaccine (particularly the colleges mandating boosters)
> A. Doesn’t mean the vaccine is not warranted for some in this age group
> B. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be taking steps to mitigate
> 
> and it’s your freak out that’s keeping the issue alive here. I would have been content with an “interesting but Here’s what’s wrong with the numbers” but that’s not what we got. Instead we get this Little freak out from you and yours. I’m just responding to y’all and would have been perfectly content leaving it with the original post.


At the heart of the issue.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe it's a different anti-vaxx varietal?  Team Confused is against mandates, or is certainly fearful of them (Team Reason is not pro-mandate). I think in order for Team Confused to make a case against mandates they need to argue that the vaccine isn't effective and people shouldn't need to get it. This, in turn, comes off as anti-vaxx.
> 
> Much of the outrage to @Grace T.'s "research" is the regularity in referencing quacks.  It literally happens over and over again.  Grace has slightly above average intelligence and knows better.


1.  Part of the team on your side certainly is pro-mandate.  Just like part of the team on our side is definitely anti-vaxx.  Your reasonableness on the issue is an aberration (and a welcomed one) not the norm.
2.  We are not arguing that "people shouldn't...get it".  We are arguing that it shouldn't be required for certain people because for certain people it might not make sense.
3. My Orwellian translator tells me that it is a common tactic on your side to label anyone you disagree with (regardless of their credentials) as "quacks" and anyone on your side that you agree with as a "expert".  My Orwellian translator also tells me that it doesn't know your intelligence but it notices the subtle putdown so common on your side, and definitely believes YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
4. The fact that you jumped on this issue too really raises my eyebrow...tells me its touched a nerve.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> This is an argument (and a good one) for at risk people who arent sure they’ve had it to get the vaxx.  It’s not an argument for people who have had it or people who are at miniscule risk to get it.   It’s also not an argument to mandate it.


"This is an argument (and a good one)" for power and $.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> 1.  Part of the team on your side certainly is pro-mandate.  Just like part of the team on our side is definitely anti-vaxx.  Your reasonableness on the issue is an aberration (and a welcomed one) not the norm.
> 2.  We are not arguing that "people shouldn't...get it".  We are arguing that it shouldn't be required for certain people because for certain people it might not make sense.
> 3. My Orwellian translator tells me that it is a common tactic on your side to label anyone you disagree with (regardless of their credentials) as "quacks" and anyone on your side that you agree with as a "expert".  My Orwellian translator also tells me that it doesn't know your intelligence but it notices the subtle putdown so common on your side, and definitely believes YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
> 4. The fact that you jumped on this issue too really raises my eyebrow...tells me its touched a nerve.


You make it look easy, well it actually is-still nicely done.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> *Part of the team on your side certainly is pro-mandate.  Just like part of the team on our side is definitely anti-vaxx.*
> *We are not arguing that "people shouldn't...get it".* * We are arguing that it shouldn't be required for certain people because for certain people it might not make sense.
> label anyone you disagree with (regardless of their credentials) as "quacks"* and
> *anyone on your side that you agree with as a "expert".*
> *The fact that you jumped on this issue too really raises my eyebrow...tells me its touched a nerve.*


It's back to Us vs Them again Grace T.  We always end up at the same place.  Some want their mandates/requirements to be the law of the land.  Some what the Laws on the books to be followed first before they obey one sides rules as they make up along the way and move goal post anytime they want to.  They also cheat and always lie to win in need be.  Only one side can win that way so that old game is over now.  Now all sides are liars and cheaters and you just dont know who is being honest anymore.  I have new rules too that I'm going by now and rule #1 is I will never tell anyone my new rules.  I will win however I need to win.


----------



## Grace T.

Fauci, despite the rational for a mandate collapsing around him, seems to be pushing for a domestic flight mandate.  I oppose for reasons previously stated.









						Fauci wants to “seriously” consider vaccine mandate for domestic flights
					

The U.S. is experiencing another wave of coronavirus cases driven by the Omicron variant.




					www.axios.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Fauci, despite the rational for a mandate collapsing around him, seems to be pushing for a domestic flight mandate.  I oppose for reasons previously stated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci wants to “seriously” consider vaccine mandate for domestic flights
> 
> 
> The U.S. is experiencing another wave of coronavirus cases driven by the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com


Doesn't it matter less and less and delta fades and omicron becomes dominant - which is almost complete?

If it's anything like the vaccine travel to Hawaii, it will discourage people from traveling. The "verification" line at the airport was no joke.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Doesn't it matter less and less and delta fades and omicron becomes dominant - which is almost complete?
> 
> If it's anything like the vaccine travel to Hawaii, it will discourage people from traveling. The "verification" line at the airport was no joke.


The rubber hits the road though when they change the definition of what "fully vaxxed" means.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The rubber hits the road though when they change the definition of what "fully vaxxed" means.


The problem they have is that as we are seeing as was posted earlier today, pfizer 10 weeks out after the booster is already down to 45% effectiveness. Moderna drops off as well but not as much. 

So what are they going to do? Get people to get shots every 10 weeks or so?


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> The problem they have is that as we are seeing as was posted earlier today, pfizer 10 weeks out after the booster is already down to 45% effectiveness. Moderna drops off as well but not as much.
> 
> So what are they going to do? Get people to get shots every 10 weeks or so?


This is what happens when you go to market in a dishonest manner, from the top down.  Panic and political agendas mixing with health care policy is polarizing and spins off dis/mis information coming from both sides. 

1.  We thought/hoped the vaccines would work (they kinda do, somewhat)
2.  We knew early they didn't meet initial expectations, the data was rather clear really early - did nothing about it -slowly pivoted position (immunity to severe disease protection for many)
3. Hoped anti-virals would save the day, turns out not as effective as hoped and defintely more dangerous
4.  Continue to panic even though data showing less disease is becoming more and more stable.  Double down on vaccine mandates.

And before team whatever gets their panties in wad...go and get your vaccine/booster.  They work for a large group of people.  They should be vaccinated.   While you are at it, get the shingles vax also.   Let go of mandates for healthy people.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> The problem they have is that as we are seeing as was posted earlier today, pfizer 10 weeks out after the booster is already down to 45% effectiveness. Moderna drops off as well but not as much.
> 
> So what are they going to do? Get people to get shots every 10 weeks or so?


It almost feel like one last gasp to get people vaccinated before the authoritarian approach loses all momentum and falls completely out of fashion.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> At the heart of the issue.


I just got the double entendre and why this is a clever pun.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe it's a different anti-vaxx varietal?  Team Confused is against mandates, or is certainly fearful of them (Team Reason is not pro-mandate). I think in order for Team Confused to make a case against mandates they need to argue that the vaccine isn't effective and people shouldn't need to get it. This, in turn, comes off as anti-vaxx.
> 
> Much of the outrage to @Grace T.'s "research" is the regularity in referencing quacks.  It literally happens over and over again.  Grace has slightly above average intelligence and knows better.


So where exactly is the line you have to cross to be anti-vaxx, even though you're pro-vaxx, but anti-mandate?  This smacks of don't question the science, just obey.

The problem I see is a lot of the messaging is that we can vaccinate our way out of the pandemic.  They treat the vaccination as the panacea which it clearly is not (some of these "experts" are bordering on snake oil salesman).  When the virus runs rampant through through the vaccinated of those groups that are nearly all vaccinated, its obvious that the vaccine doesn't prevent community spread.  I don't need a quack or an "expert" to tell me that which I can see with my own eyes.

The Biden administration's Plan A is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate.  Their plan B, they don't have one.  (which is why you see the delay in available testing)  They put all their eggs in one vaccination basket, when they should also be emphasizing therapeutics and early treatment, among others.   It appears the vaccine is very effective at preventing serious illness, but its not going to stop the virus.

As far as our kids go, the collateral damage from restrictions and lockdowns is far worse than their risk from Covid.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> So where exactly is the line you have to cross to be anti-vaxx, even though you're pro-vaxx, but anti-mandate?  This smacks of don't question the science, just obey.


FYI - NorCalDad joins us as anti-vaxxers according to Webster: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination



watfly said:


> The Biden administration's Plan A is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate.  Their plan B, they don't have one.  (which is why you see the delay in available testing)  They put all their eggs in one vaccination basket, when they should also be emphasizing therapeutics and early treatment, among others.   It appears the vaccine is very effective at preventing serious illness, but its not going to stop the virus.


My original thought is that it does the job of a flu shot. However, I'd say it is more like a flu shot that didn't hit on the dominant strain as is the state of our current COVID shots and boosters. It offers some protection.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So where exactly is the line you have to cross to be anti-vaxx, even though you're pro-vaxx, but anti-mandate?  This smacks of don't question the science, just obey.
> 
> The problem I see is a lot of the messaging is that we can vaccinate our way out of the pandemic.  They treat the vaccination as the panacea which it clearly is not (some of these "experts" are bordering on snake oil salesman).  When the virus runs rampant through through the vaccinated of those groups that are nearly all vaccinated, its obvious that the vaccine doesn't prevent community spread.  I don't need a quack or an "expert" to tell me that which I can see with my own eyes.
> 
> The Biden administration's Plan A is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate.  Their plan B, they don't have one.  (which is why you see the delay in available testing)  They put all their eggs in one vaccination basket, when they should also be emphasizing therapeutics and early treatment, among others.   It appears the vaccine is very effective at preventing serious illness, but its not going to stop the virus.
> 
> As far as our kids go, the collateral damage from restrictions and lockdowns is far worse than their risk from Covid.


It’s not really a huge surprise they ended here. When birx moved aside, atlas left and Biden tapped fauci, they (much like with aids) put all their eggs in the vaccine basket.  Fauci rightly or wrongly has always been laser obsessed with vaccines.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> So where exactly is the line you have to cross to be anti-vaxx, even though you're pro-vaxx, but anti-mandate?  This smacks of don't question the science, just obey.
> 
> The problem I see is a lot of the messaging is that we can vaccinate our way out of the pandemic.  They treat the vaccination as the panacea which it clearly is not (some of these "experts" are bordering on snake oil salesman).  When the virus runs rampant through through the vaccinated of those groups that are nearly all vaccinated, its obvious that the vaccine doesn't prevent community spread.  I don't need a quack or an "expert" to tell me that which I can see with my own eyes.
> 
> The Biden administration's Plan A is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate.  Their plan B, they don't have one.  (which is why you see the delay in available testing)  They put all their eggs in one vaccination basket, when they should also be emphasizing therapeutics and early treatment, among others.   It appears the vaccine is very effective at preventing serious illness, but its not going to stop the virus.
> 
> As far as our kids go, the collateral damage from restrictions and lockdowns is far worse than their risk from Covid.


I mean I think the piece that always goes missing in these conversations from the anti-mandate folks is the vaccine is indeed helping keep our hospitals from filling up.  When hospitals fill up, people die.  I mean the great Donald Trump said the same thing.  So to say it's ineffective is missing the mark pretty much entirely.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Oh this is an interesting revisionism. Noted.  So if I were to discuss your posting history by noting you are a moron when there is reason to believe you are lost rather than understanding something that’s totally ok. Got it.
> 
> this really is comedy gold.


What evidence do you have that I am a moron?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Talk about spin and talking points. Again it depends on the age group. For a healthy teen the risk of death is negligible. For someone in their 20s without cormorbidities same. For someone in their 30s it’s much more tricky since there is a small but very real risk.
> 
> that’s why given there is little community benefit the discussion should be had between patient and doctor.  The doctor may advise it’s warranted. They may advise it’s not. There’s also some things we can do to minimize risk in this group: no boosters, different vaccines, no moderna, space out injections longer and/or aspirate. These alternatives should be investigated.  But it does mean no mandate which is why y’all are freaking out


But in a cost/benefit analysis, the death of a 10-year-old is much more of a loss than the death of an 80-year-old.

Who is freaking out here?


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe it's a different anti-vaxx varietal?  Team Confused is against mandates, or is certainly fearful of them (Team Reason is not pro-mandate). I think in order for Team Confused to make a case against mandates they need to argue that the vaccine isn't effective and people shouldn't need to get it. This, in turn, comes off as anti-vaxx.
> 
> Much of the outrage to @Grace T.'s "research" is the regularity in referencing quacks.  It literally happens over and over again.  Grace has slightly above average intelligence and knows better.


I have several times asked Grace to tell us where she gets all that stuff, but so far she has declined to state.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s not really a huge surprise they ended here. When birx moved aside, atlas left and Biden tapped fauci, they (much like with aids) put all their eggs in the vaccine basket.  Fauci rightly or wrongly has always been laser obsessed with vaccines.


Laser obsessed?  Fauci pushed for the use of AZT to treat HIV/AIDS.  AZT is not a vaccine.  It is an enzyme reverse transcriptase inhibitor, more of a treatment or preventive than a vaccine.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What evidence do you have that I am a moron?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


>


That's what I thought.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> That's what I thought.


She has her opinion which she will cite in the future as ample evidence . . .


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The Biden administration's Plan A is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate. Their plan B, they don't have one. (which is why you see the delay in available testing) They put all their eggs in one vaccination basket, when they should also be emphasizing therapeutics and early treatment, among others. It appears the vaccine is very effective at preventing serious illness, but its not going to stop the virus.


A friendly reminder of the past/present which touches on the plan.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> But in a cost/benefit analysis, the death of a 10-year-old is much more of a loss than the death of an 80-year-old.
> 
> Who is freaking out here?


If that's the case we should freak out every year about the flu because the flu is much more dangerous to a 5 year old (let alone a 10 year old) than COVID.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's what I thought.


thought

you really did miss your career.  so funny.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I mean I think the piece that always goes missing in these conversations from the anti-mandate folks is the vaccine is indeed helping keep our hospitals from filling up.  When hospitals fill up, people die.  I mean the great Donald Trump said the same thing.  So to say it's ineffective is missing the mark pretty much entirely.


a. this doesn't help you though mandate it with kids, the under 30, or people who have had it before because their risk is negligible.
b. if keeping people out of the hospital is the standard, then if you go down that road, why not mandate exercise for the obesse, what a diabetic can eat, smoking, people to take needed medicine that keeps them out of the hospital.
c. it's especially not appropriate in the United States.  We've had areas that have come pretty close to hospital collapse but no where have we actually had them collapse (some countries, like the Czech Republic, have had such a collapse).  And if that's the standard, you should be looking at the same every flu season.  Hospitals don't carry a whole lot of excess capacity....it's not profitable...that was the result of the consulting wave (which my elder brother did some work on way back when) in the late 1990s.  And before you say single payer...it's the same for the NIH...to remain on budget they did the same thing as part of the Labour reforms of the 90s.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Laser obsessed?  Fauci pushed for the use of AZT to treat HIV/AIDS.  AZT is not a vaccine.  It is an enzyme reverse transcriptase inhibitor, more of a treatment or preventive than a vaccine.


It's well know Fauci's vision and hope was to get a vaccine for HIV.  It's even in that Disney plus film on him.  It's his white whale, and it's a shame (for all of us) he never got it. It's not a criticism of him since it's great that we even have COVID vaccines (no matter how imperfect they are)....but it is an observation that when you are a hammer (immunologist) everything is a nail (vaccine).,


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> What evidence do you have that I am a moron?


You're typing, right.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


>


For the win!


----------



## Brav520

Well Biden said there is no federal solution   for Covid, solutions are at state level,  and then promptly leaves on vacation


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> She has her opinion which she will cite in the future as ample evidence . . .


-right on cue with the reach-a-round, color me shocked!


----------



## MicPaPa

Brav520 said:


> Well Biden said there is no federal solution   for Covid, solutions are at state level,  and then promptly leaves on vacation


Why keep pretending that Biden's in charge, or knows what day it is for that matter.


----------



## Grace T.

US officials recommend shorter COVID isolation, quarantine
					

NEW YORK (AP) — U.S. health officials on Monday cut isolation restrictions for asymptomatic Americans who catch the coronavirus from 10 to five days, and similarly shortened the time that close contacts need to quarantine.




					apnews.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> a. this doesn't help you though mandate it with kids, the under 30, or people who have had it before because their risk is negligible.
> b. if keeping people out of the hospital is the standard, then if you go down that road, why not mandate exercise for the obesse, what a diabetic can eat, smoking, people to take needed medicine that keeps them out of the hospital.
> c. it's especially not appropriate in the United States.  We've had areas that have come pretty close to hospital collapse but no where have we actually had them collapse (some countries, like the Czech Republic, have had such a collapse).  And if that's the standard, you should be looking at the same every flu season.  Hospitals don't carry a whole lot of excess capacity....it's not profitable...that was the result of the consulting wave (which my elder brother did some work on way back when) in the late 1990s.  And before you say single payer...it's the same for the NIH...to remain on budget they did the same thing as part of the Labour reforms of the 90s.


p.s. if hospital capacity really is something we are concerned with one of the big things clogging up the ERs is drug overdose.  If you aren't mandating forced treatment including of the homeless, you aren't concerned with hospital capacity at all.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> a. this doesn't help you though mandate it with kids, the under 30, or people who have had it before because their risk is negligible.
> b. if keeping people out of the hospital is the standard, then if you go down that road, why not mandate exercise for the obesse, what a diabetic can eat, smoking, people to take needed medicine that keeps them out of the hospital.
> c. it's especially not appropriate in the United States.  We've had areas that have come pretty close to hospital collapse but no where have we actually had them collapse (some countries, like the Czech Republic, have had such a collapse).  And if that's the standard, you should be looking at the same every flu season.  Hospitals don't carry a whole lot of excess capacity....it's not profitable...that was the result of the consulting wave (which my elder brother did some work on way back when) in the late 1990s.  And before you say single payer...it's the same for the NIH...to remain on budget they did the same thing as part of the Labour reforms of the 90s.


Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates.  Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines.  It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling.  I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines.  It's those opinions I take issue with.   

So you're saying our healthcare system is broken?  Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism?  Please...go on.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates.  Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines.  It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling.  I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines.  It's those opinions I take issue with.
> 
> So you're saying our healthcare system is broken?  Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism?  Please...go on.


Didn't I say you'd pull out the same tired canard?  The NHS has the same issue....most of the western hospital systems reformed in the 90s as a result of a consulting push from some of the big consulting companies to cut back excess capacity.  Whether private (US/Canada) or government (NHS) run, western hospitals don't have the same excess capacity they used to.....profit or budget it's all the same.

p.s. if you are not arguing for mandates, why'd you point out "anti-mandates"....which is why I raised the point....if you hadn't, I wouldn't have.   Seems you aren't sure if you are coming or going.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I mean I think the piece that always goes missing in these conversations from the anti-mandate folks is the vaccine is indeed helping keep our hospitals from filling up.  When hospitals fill up, people die.  I mean the great Donald Trump said the same thing.  So to say it's ineffective is missing the mark pretty much entirely.


I said its ineffective at preventing community spread.  That's plainly obvious when you look at what's happening. For example, in the NHL with 100% vaccinated and just last week alone with over 100 in Covid protocol. I'm all ears. What's your evidence that the vaccine prevents community spread in the real world (i.e. not some experts opinion of what has happened in the lab)?  I have plenty examples of where it hasn't.

I never said it wasn't effective at keeping you out of the hospital, in fact, I said its very effective.  However, my position has always been from the kids' standpoint and they're not remotely close to overwhelming hospitals, vaccinated or not.  Whether you're vociferously anti-mandate, but pro vaxx, or passively anti-mandate, but pro-vaxx is a difference without a distinction when it comes to the overwhelming hospitals theory (which is a valid issue).  So it seems were on the same page, but maybe just different paragraphs.

Also therapeutics are very effective at keeping you out of the hospital if treated early, how many times have you heard that from leadership? Being in good shape also keeps you out of the hospital.  There is more than one way to skin this cat.  The government shouldn't be forcing you choose the medical treatment that they prefer.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's well know Fauci's vision and hope was to get a vaccine for HIV.  It's even in that Disney plus film on him.  It's his white whale, and it's a shame (for all of us) he never got it. It's not a criticism of him since it's great that we even have COVID vaccines (no matter how imperfect they are)....but it is an observation that when you are a hammer (immunologist) everything is a nail (vaccine).,


I don't have that limited vision of things.  It's well known that Fauci supported the use of AZT against strong opposition, but that doesn't mean he gave up on the search for a vaccine.

And this --









						Experimental mRNA HIV vaccine safe, shows promise in animals
					

NIH scientists developed vaccine platform.




					www.nih.gov


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> p.s. if hospital capacity really is something we are concerned with one of the big things clogging up the ERs is drug overdose.  If you aren't mandating forced treatment including of the homeless, you aren't concerned with hospital capacity at all.


You're comparing drug use dependency to someone unwilling to get a vaccine?  Your arguments make absolutely no sense.  

And like clockwork you're over simplifying an incredibly complex issue: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/12/976092386/hospital-emergency-rooms-struggle-with-overdose-spike-during-pandemic


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates.  Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines.  It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling.  I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines.  It's those opinions I take issue with.
> 
> So you're saying our healthcare system is broken?  Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism?  Please...go on.


I have hope that someday she may realize that posting things that boneheads tell her just may eventually make her look like a bonehead yourself.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> You're comparing drug use dependency to someone unwilling to get a vaccine?  Your arguments make absolutely no sense.
> 
> And like clockwork you're over simplifying an incredibly complex issue: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/12/976092386/hospital-emergency-rooms-struggle-with-overdose-spike-during-pandemic



Errr...it doesn't make sense because you went down the particular rabbit hole or arguing for vaccine mandates to preserve hospital capacity.  You can't make that argument and then handwave the other concerns away.  You can't go through the looking glass and then complain that cards walking around like people and talking cats don't make sense....your act of going through the looking glass already got you there.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have hope that someday she may realize that posting things that boneheads tell her just may eventually make her look like a bonehead yourself.


I have hope that someday you might realize that you actually are lost and have a comprehension issues and put on those glasses everyone keeps telling you to wear.

"limited vision of things"


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Didn't I say you'd pull out the same tired canard?  The NHS has the same issue....most of the western hospital systems reformed in the 90s as a result of a consulting push from some of the big consulting companies to cut back excess capacity.  Whether private (US/Canada) or government (NHS) run, western hospitals don't have the same excess capacity they used to.....profit or budget it's all the same.
> 
> p.s. if you are not arguing for mandates, why'd you point out "anti-mandates"....which is why I raised the point....if you hadn't, I wouldn't have.   Seems you aren't sure if you are coming or going.


The center of your argument in this entire thread has been about mandates, and your disapproval of them,  Just because I reference that center as being "anti-mandate" does not mean I am suddenly pro-mandate.  I'm arguing against the basis of which you argue against mandates -- which flies in the face of anything logical.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> The center of your argument in this entire thread has been about mandates, and your disapproval of them,  Just because I reference that center as being "anti-mandate" does not mean I am suddenly pro-mandate.  I'm arguing against the basis of which you argue against mandates -- which flies in the face of anything logical.


Errr...hate to tell you this, but you've bound yourself into quite a pretzel.  On the one hand, you say you are anti-mandate.  But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument.  I pointed out to you why that argument didn't make sense.  Which YOU then claim flies in the face of anything logical, when it is a response to the argument YOU made, which YOU claim you aren't really making at all.

Pretzel.  Seriously, if you are anti-mandate, let's hear your argument about being anti-mandate.  Why even bring up the canard about the hospitals?


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Errr...it doesn't make sense because you went down the particular rabbit hole or arguing for vaccine mandates to preserve hospital capacity.  You can't make that argument and then handwave the other concerns away.  You can't go through the looking glass and then complain that cards walking around like people and talking cats don't make sense....your act of going through the looking glass already got you there.


My god.  When did I ever say I was arguing for mandates?  I'm arguing that people should take the vaccine because it is safe to do so and that they do indeed help.  Nowhere do I ever make a case for mandates.  The basis for your argument goes against what I'm arguing, and I'm sure many others that are here.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Errr...hate to tell you this, but you've bound yourself into quite a pretzel.  On the one hand, you say you are anti-mandate.  But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument.  I pointed out to you why that argument didn't make sense.  Which YOU then claim flies in the face of anything logical, when it is a response to the argument YOU made, which YOU claim you aren't really making at all.
> 
> Pretzel.  Seriously, if you are anti-mandate, let's hear your argument about being anti-mandate.  Why even bring up the canard about the hospitals?


Holy jeebus. "But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument". What in bloody hell kind of debate voodoo are you using here? When did the pro-mandate people get a monopoly on the simple fact that less vaccinated people land in the hospital? Why are they the only ones who can point that out?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> My god.  When did I ever say I was arguing for mandates?  I'm arguing that people should take the vaccine because it is safe to do so and that they do indeed help.  Nowhere do I ever make a case for mandates.  The basis for your argument goes against what I'm arguing, and I'm sure many others that are here.


a. "I think that the piece that is missing from these anti-mandate folks is that the vaccines are indeed helping" keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.  You should just admit you misspoke then and didn't mean "antimandate folks". because
b. few of us are arguing that folks shouldn't take the vaccine.  We are arguing it should be a personal choice. and
c. for some people (notably children, men under 30) particular vaccines or getting vaccinated may not be warranted because their risk is so miniscule they won't clog up the hospitals.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Holy jeebus. "But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument". What in bloody hell kind of debate voodoo are you using here? When did the pro-mandate people get a monopoly on the simple fact that less vaccinated people land in the hospital? Why are they the only ones who can point that out?


a. Because you were the one that called out the "anti-mandate" folks. 
b. It's not all people....it's certain people....going around vaccinating all kids (some may very well need vaccination) is not doing much for your hospital capacity. Vaccinating everyone over 40 yeah absolutely good idea, but the boosters may not do much.  Vaccinating and boosting everyone over 60 or 70, absolutely.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> *Being in good shape also keeps you out of the hospital.  There is more than one way to skin this cat. * *The government shouldn't be forcing you choose the medical treatment that they prefer.*


Being in gr8t shape is the way to go.  I love the natural look and the natural life.  I use what the land has giving me.  I'm can say I am in the best shape of my life and because of that, I should get a hall pass, as long as I stay healthy.  I like my cat skinned alive btw


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> a. "I think that the piece that is missing from these anti-mandate folks is that the vaccines are indeed helping" keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.  You should just admit you misspoke then and didn't mean "antimandate folks". because
> b. few of us are arguing that folks shouldn't take the vaccine.  We are arguing it should be a personal choice. and
> c. for some people (notably children, men under 30) particular vaccines or getting vaccinated may not be warranted because their risk is so miniscule they won't clog up the hospitals.



Here's a death chart BTW.... a vaxxed under 30 risk is the same is a fully vaxxed for most ages until 65....most people don't understand the extreme age differential risks involved with this virus


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475500815951577094


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Please...go on.


Sounds of the Borg Troll Collective


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Errr...hate to tell you this, but you've bound yourself into quite a pretzel.  On the one hand, you say you are anti-mandate.  But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument.  I pointed out to you why that argument didn't make sense.  Which YOU then claim flies in the face of anything logical, when it is a response to the argument YOU made, which YOU claim you aren't really making at all.
> 
> Pretzel.  Seriously, if you are anti-mandate, let's hear your argument about being anti-mandate.  Why even bring up the canard about the hospitals?


He's confused and doesn't realize that's his team.


----------



## Grace T.

New preprint....omicron infection has neutralizing immunity against the delta.  Omicron will push the delta out (once its gone through the vaxxed). 

Unless we get a new whacky and more dangerous variant (which is always a possibility even though viral evolution doesn't tend to go that way), I think if this study is true this may very well be the last hurrah for COVID. We'll all have to get our colds, however, to get there.....IF true (a big if), it's time to wave the white flag and remove remaining restrictions (saving only circuit breakers to preserve hospital capacity), ditch the masks, and get our colds.

(of course the first comment in response to this preprint being advertized on twitter is don't say that...the anti lockdown people will use it as an excuse to remove all remaining restrictions....well because if true and if the vaccines don't really prevent omicron spread that's where logic leads us to)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475584463941914635


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> New preprint....omicron infection has neutralizing immunity against the delta.  Omicron will push the delta out (once its gone through the vaxxed).
> 
> Unless we get a new whacky and more dangerous variant (which is always a possibility even though viral evolution doesn't tend to go that way), I think if this study is true this may very well be the last hurrah for COVID. We'll all have to get our colds, however, to get there.....IF true (a big if), it's time to wave the white flag and remove remaining restrictions (saving only circuit breakers to preserve hospital capacity), ditch the masks, and get our colds.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475584463941914635


Agree - this is very good news if verified.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Agree - this is very good news if verified.


Its a done deal and you can take it to the bank.  Also, the military has a shot that will heal everyone from all the other BS in your blood.  It's the shot heard around the world.  For those who stood tall and said no shots and got the Rona early on, they are now superman or superwoman.  I feel like the man today and it's because I feel super good about myself and so much more.  I love myself more then ever


----------



## thirteenknots

Let's Go Brandon Band - LIAR [Rollins Band] ft. Kamala 47 - YouTube


----------



## Grace T.

It's funny that Joe Biden's COVID plan is beginning to look more and more like Trump's COVID plan...."There is no federal solution....this gets solved on the state level."  Biden waiving the white flag.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475555598175555586


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> It's funny that Joe Biden's COVID plan is beginning to look more and more like Trump's COVID plan...."There is no federal solution....this gets solved on the state level."  Biden waiving the white flag.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475555598175555586


Have to wonder if that’s what was actually on the teleprompter


----------



## thirteenknots

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475550123321171970


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> a. Because you were the one that called out the "anti-mandate" folks.
> b. It's not all people....it's certain people....going around vaccinating all kids (some may very well need vaccination) is not doing much for your hospital capacity. Vaccinating everyone over 40 yeah absolutely good idea, but the boosters may not do much.  Vaccinating and boosting everyone over 60 or 70, absolutely.


Here we go again, CLEAN UP ON AISLE 5! When will they learn.


----------



## Grace T.

Fair.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475653061880254470


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how over the past week or 2 the messaging is changing. Learn to live with it. Hardest hit? People like dad who thought if we just tried harder it would go away.

This is the new normal,” said Leana Wen, a public health professor at George Washington University and former Baltimore health commissioner. “This is what we will have to accept as we transition from the emergency of COVID-19 to living with it as part of the new normal.”









						Experts say COVID-19 cases don’t tell whole story
					

For nearly two years, Americans have looked carefully at coronavirus case numbers in the country and in their local states and towns to judge the risk of the disease.Surging case numbers signaled g…




					thehill.com


----------



## Ellejustus

*There were more than 200,000 new cases of Covid on Sunday. Some experts expect that figure to hit half a million per day soon.*


----------



## Ellejustus

The flippers always flip it back on you.  If all one does is lie when they speak, it's called cheating and stealing the truth from others.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It's funny that Joe Biden's COVID plan is beginning to look more and more like Trump's COVID plan...."There is no federal solution....this gets solved on the state level." Biden waiving the white flag.


I remember him running on that and the press dutifully parroting that talking point. 

And yet from day 1 it was basically the same plan. Get the vaxx out and get testing done. There really wasn't much else to do unless one wanted to go authoritarian, and our Constitution doesn't allow that.


----------



## Desert Hound

And again we know very little about the long term affects of the vaxx.

Here scientists are debating whether a 4th shot does more good vs harm.

Which again is another reason why there should be NO VAXX mandate. 

_But some scientists warned that the plan could backfire, *because too many shots might cause a sort of immune system fatigue, compromising the body’s ability to fight the coronavirus.* A few members of the government’s advisory panel raised that concern with respect to the elderly, according to a written summary of the discussion obtained by The New York Times._






						DNyuz - Latest Breaking U.S. News
					

Latest Breaking News, U.S. and World Politics, Crime, Business, Science, Technology, Autos, Entertainment, Culture, Movie, Music, Sports.



					dnyuz.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> _*because too many shots might cause a sort of immune system fatigue, compromising the body’s ability to fight the coronavirus.* _


This is what my best Doc pal told me years ago.  The best "vaccine" you have is your personal immune system that does NOT need any help from Bill and Melinda or Dr. F and Frances or t himself, who say's he made three in less then 12 months.   All these frauds must be compromised by Jeffrey and his girlfriend whose Papi was Robert.  I guess Victoria always had a secret and we will all find out soon.  These little punks sure know how to buy folks, then bribe them and then blackmail their asses to do what you need them to do.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how over the past week or 2 the messaging is changing. Learn to live with it. Hardest hit? People like dad who thought if we just tried harder it would go away.
> 
> This is the new normal,” said Leana Wen, a public health professor at George Washington University and former Baltimore health commissioner. “This is what we will have to accept as we transition from the emergency of COVID-19 to living with it as part of the new normal.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experts say COVID-19 cases don’t tell whole story
> 
> 
> For nearly two years, Americans have looked carefully at coronavirus case numbers in the country and in their local states and towns to judge the risk of the disease.Surging case numbers signaled g…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


She is on a new level of quackery these days. .  She's great at pushing her book. She's such an embarrasment to those that care for patients every day.  To think that she was in charge of public health policy at one point is beyond scary.  Maybe at one point she believed in the oath she took but who knows.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> I remember him running on that and the press dutifully parroting that talking point.
> 
> And yet from day 1 it was basically the same plan. Get the vaxx out and get testing done. There really wasn't much else to do unless one wanted to go authoritarian, and our Constitution doesn't allow that.


Your faith in the constitution protecting you is amusing. Tell it to the millions of Americans who thought the 14th amendment protected them until the Supreme Court came up with the "separate but equal" doctrine to allow Jim Crow laws - a doctrine that ensured separate but rarely if ever equal ... as everyone knew. It took another 60 years for a different Supreme Court to decide BS on that, and then another decade for Congress to legislate. So a  century of discrimination for millions of Americans.

In short, the constitution provides whatever protection the current SCOTUS allows or not, nothing more or less. Any document that is still open to interpretation 200+ years later is hardly something to hang your hat on.


----------



## Ellejustus

NEW CDC "Guidance": vaxxed but unboosted are classified the same as being unvaxxed.

Hi fellas, welcome back to being not fully vaxxed.  I have a box of masks if you need one.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

*CNN Breaking News:  New Omicron variant fills up children's hospitals*
A *five-fold* increase in pediatric admissions in* New York City* this month. Close to double the numbers admitted in Washington, DC.  And nationwide, on average, *pediatric hospitalizations are up 35% in just the past week.*


Dr. Spinner wants all the kids jabbed.  

The highly transmissible *Omicron variant* is* teaming up* with the busy holiday season to *infect *more* children* across the* United States than ever before *((ever before????  Omicron is new, right?)), and *children's hospitals *are bracing for it to get even* worse.*
"I think we are going to see* more numbers* now* than* we have ever seen*," Dr. Stanley Spinner*, who is chief medical officer and vice president at Texas Children's Pediatrics & Urgent Care in Houston, told CNN.

"*Cases* are continuing to* rise* between *Christmas gatherings* and we're going to continue to see *more numbers* this week from that,"* Spinner said* in a telephone interview.

"It's almost like you can see the* train coming *down the track and you're just hoping it doesn't go *off the rails*," Dr. Claudia Hoyen

"What's *concerning *on the (pediatric) side is that,* unlike the adults *-- where they're reporting for the number of adults getting infected relatively low numbers getting hospitalized -- what we're really seeing, we think, is an i*ncreasing number of kids being hospitalized," Spinner said*.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> Your faith in the constitution protecting you is amusing.


The point is I am contrasting our country with those protections in place vs those who don't have them...ie Australia and NZ. 

Since their governments didn't have hurdles to overcome, they simply did what they wanted. 

Us having a constitution put the brakes on those desires by some in power. 

You are correct that it is far from perfect protection. However I would rather start off having them in place vs being in a country where one does not.


----------



## dad4

I’m waiting for one of you to realize that declining immunity pokes a big hole in your “protect only the vulnerable” plan.  

Remember all your posts about how you can do whatever you like because the elderly are vaccinated?   Well, the immune response is weakest among the elderly.  If declining immunity is a major problem, they get hit first.  

Conveniently, no actual change to personal behavior is warranted.  Regardless of what the facts are, all logic leads to the same convenient place:

If the vaccine works, then you can do whatever you want because everyone else is protected.
If the vaccine doesn’t work, then you can do whatever you want because it was all inevitable* anyway.

*Inevitable, except for Asians.  But we can’t be Asian, so they don’t count.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The point is I am contrasting our country with those protections in place vs those who don't have them...ie Australia and NZ.
> 
> Since their governments didn't have hurdles to overcome, they simply did what they wanted.
> 
> Us having a constitution put the brakes on those desires by some in power.
> 
> You are correct that it is far from perfect protection. However I would rather start off having them in place vs being in a country where one does not.


I get the point, however my point is that the "protection" offered by the constitution is paper thin (sic), as it is open to the interpretation of SCOTUS at a moment in time. It also takes time to get to that point, and restrictions can be in place while that goes ahead - the current TX case being a perfect example of where SCOTUS have allowed it to stay in place.

Some examples, the 1st amendment has exceptions, as decided by SCOTUS, they could be expanded by SCOTUS on a whim. The 2nd could be interpreted by SCOTUS to ensure you had to part of a militia to be in possession of a fire arm, with those *regulated *militias (& membership of) being approved by the "authorities".  So SCOTUS could disarm the population and take away your right to say anything about it if aligned with a Presidency/Congress that was cool with that. That's how useful the constitution is.


----------



## Ellejustus

whatithink said:


> *I get the point, however my point is that the "protection" offered by the constitution is paper thin (sic)*


Maybe, but I see a lot of blood on that paper (sic)


----------



## Ellejustus

The guidance reads:


> For people who are *unvaccinated* *or* are more than *six months out from their second mRNA dose (or more than 2 months after the J&J vaccine) and not yet boosted*, CDC now recommends *quarantine* for 5 days followed by *strict mask use* for an additional 5 days. Alternatively, if a 5-day quarantine is not feasible, it is imperative that an exposed person wear a well-fitting mask at all times when around others for 10 days after exposure. *Individuals who have received their booster shot do not need to quarantine* following an exposure, *but* should wear a *mask for 10 days *after the exposure.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The point is I am contrasting our country with those protections in place vs those who don't have them...ie Australia and NZ.
> 
> Since their governments didn't have hurdles to overcome, they simply did what they wanted.
> 
> Us having a constitution put the brakes on those desires by some in power.
> 
> You are correct that it is far from perfect protection. However I would rather start off having them in place vs being in a country where one does not.


No one is arguing Constitutional protections are bad.  There is a solid point that ours are insufficient, especially because of the SCOTUS as single point of failure on constitutional law.  ( Oddly, a role that is not in the text of the constitution. )

A two party system combined with a politicized court is causing legitimacy problems for the court.  We see it as a red court or a blue court.  And we’re correct.  

As the court weakens roe v wade, it’s going to knock court credibility down another notch.  What will people think of the change?  Half will say the old court was politicied and the new one is right.  Half will say the new court is politicized and the old one was right.  Neither statement is actually expressing faith in the court.  Both are saying “I trust the court, but only if my team controls it.”


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> No one is arguing Constitutional protections are bad.  There is a solid point that ours are insufficient, especially because of the SCOTUS as single point of failure on constitutional law.  ( Oddly, a role that is not in the text of the constitution. )
> 
> A two party system combined with a politicized court is causing legitimacy problems for the court.  We see it as a red court or a blue court.  And we’re correct.
> 
> As the court weakens roe v wade, it’s going to knock court credibility down another notch.  What will people think of the change?  Half will say the old court was politicied and the new one is right.  Half will say the new court is politicized and the old one was right.  Neither statement is actually expressing faith in the court.  Both are saying “I trust the court, but only if my team controls it.”


Nice try dad.  Look, when my kids catch me when I'm wrong, I always own it and tell them, "Kids, I was wrong."  If i don't tell them I wrong, they will surely let me know when i'm wrong.  I have an open door policy with my wife and kids.  No taboo with me man.  I dont own my wife or my kids. They can do whatever they want and I will always be here for a hug surrounded with love.  I told my wife I will get her to the finish line with mercy and forgiveness.  The people making our lives ((unless you have income for life)) a living nightmare have Big Karma coming.  Do not seek revenge is my new motto.  Justice will come and you better not be caught being a liar and a cheater at that time.  It will not be good for mankind.


----------



## Ellejustus

*WARNING WARNING WARNING!!!*






*Golden Gate is here.  I'm leaving......*


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I’m waiting for one of you to realize that declining immunity pokes a big hole in your “protect only the vulnerable” plan.
> 
> Remember all your posts about how you can do whatever you like because the elderly are vaccinated?   Well, the immune response is weakest among the elderly.  If declining immunity is a major problem, they get hit first.
> 
> Conveniently, no actual change to personal behavior is warranted.  Regardless of what the facts are, all logic leads to the same convenient place:
> 
> If the vaccine works, then you can do whatever you want because everyone else is protected.
> If the vaccine doesn’t work, then you can do whatever you want because it was all inevitable* anyway.
> 
> *Inevitable, except for Asians.  But we can’t be Asian, so they don’t count.


Realize?? That train left the station months and months ago.  Endemic covid is here, has been for quite some time.  It's you that doesn't realize that.  Clinical trials continue in the quest for a vaccine that offers immunity. Less than perfect anti virals are headed your way.  Early treatment by your primary care.  

What are these personal behaviors that have to change?  If you mean changes to the rules of how we interact with covid, they are happening.  Less quarantine time, no testing required after quanrantine, etc.  Plenty of personal behavior will be dicated in order to alleviate staff shortages at hospitals and the labor force.  Don't worry, boosters will likley be EU authorized  here very shortly, even though the FDA isn't even convinced they are neccessary for those under 65.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I’m waiting for one of you to realize that declining immunity pokes a big hole in your “protect only the vulnerable” plan.
> 
> Remember all your posts about how you can do whatever you like because the elderly are vaccinated?   Well, the immune response is weakest among the elderly.  If declining immunity is a major problem, they get hit first.
> 
> Conveniently, no actual change to personal behavior is warranted.  Regardless of what the facts are, all logic leads to the same convenient place:
> 
> If the vaccine works, then you can do whatever you want because everyone else is protected.
> If the vaccine doesn’t work, then you can do whatever you want because it was all inevitable* anyway.
> 
> *Inevitable, except for Asians.  But we can’t be Asian, so they don’t count.


You inadvertently hit on the problem with your own logic The first question is does the vaccine “work”. If yes there’s no problem.  If no there’s a problem. The next question is if there’s a problem what do you want to do about it.  Be Asian isn’t an option. So the question is (which you always dodge) what do you want to do about it

if you think there’s declining immunity what do you want to do about it and how long (what’s the off ramp)? Sometimes the answer to “something must be done” is “nothing can be done” or “very little”. It’s childish not to accept that reality.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Realize?? That train left the station months and months ago.  Endemic covid is here, has been for quite some time.  It's you that doesn't realize that.  Clinical trials continue in the quest for a vaccine that offers immunity. Less than perfect anti virals are headed your way.  Early treatment by your primary care.
> 
> What are these personal behaviors that have to change?  If you mean changes to the rules of how we interact with covid, they are happening.  Less quarantine time, no testing required after quanrantine, etc.  Plenty of personal behavior will be dicated in order to alleviate staff shortages at hospitals and the labor force.  Don't worry, boosters will likley be EU authorized  here very shortly, even though the FDA isn't even convinced they are neccessary for those under 65.


Endemic does not have to mean ubiquitous.  We chose that option.

We could have chosen to meet outdoors, get vaccinated, wear masks, and keep our distance.  We didn't.  And we still aren't.

I certainly don't mean the CDC change.  The CDC change is mostly about helping businesses meet staffing needs by allowing people to come in while sick.  I'd be curious to see why they think it will work, instead of just accelerating the Omicron wave.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Endemic does not have to mean ubiquitous.  We chose that option.
> 
> We could have chosen to meet outdoors, get vaccinated, wear masks, and keep our distance.  We didn't.  And we still aren't.
> 
> I certainly don't mean the CDC change.  The CDC change is mostly about helping businesses meet staffing needs by allowing people to come in while sick.  I'd be curious to see why they think it will work, instead of just accelerating the Omicron wave.


The "meet outdoors" thing is where your policy begins to fall apart.  How exactly you going to do that.  Shut down work (if just some, which ones), shut down schools, close indoor dining and bars, prohibit indoor sports, prohibit hair salons, prohibit cannabis sales, prohibit dentists?  ANd then how exactly are you going to enforce it?  At this point, are you still urging Australian style lockdowns, and if so by how long?  Just urging people to meet outside isn't policy....it's preaching.  

"keep our distance" represents the same problem.  Where and how?  Otherwise your policy is just Phase 1: Collect Underpants, Phase 2: ?, Phase 3: Profit.

After you articulate your policy step 3 is does the policy work.  If yes, move to step 4.  If no, move back to step 2.  Step 4 is does the policy have an articulated offramp.  Step 5 is if the policy is politically feasible.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> No one is arguing Constitutional protections are bad.  There is a solid point that ours are insufficient, especially because of the SCOTUS as single point of failure on constitutional law.  ( Oddly, a role that is not in the text of the constitution. )
> 
> A two party system combined with a politicized court is causing legitimacy problems for the court.  We see it as a red court or a blue court.  And we’re correct.
> 
> As the court weakens roe v wade, it’s going to knock court credibility down another notch.  What will people think of the change?  Half will say the old court was politicied and the new one is right.  Half will say the new court is politicized and the old one was right.  Neither statement is actually expressing faith in the court.  Both are saying “I trust the court, but only if my team controls it.”


You still have to contend with the unknowable effects of an  experimental drug on yourself, and worse, your kids. Many of us don't. 

I see why you want a mandate, misery loves company. Good luck.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> We could have chosen to meet outdoors, get vaccinated, wear masks, and keep our distance. We didn't. And we still aren't.


More and more realize that stuff doesn't work. 

We cannot meet outdoors? Most of what we do for work, school, etc is indoors. You are simply never going to change that. 
Vaccinated? O rips through the vaxxed and unvaxxed. Being vaxxed at this point doesn't stop the spread. 
Masks? O is 70x more infectious. Most of what we do is inside. 
Keep our distance? 

None of the above measures stopped the virus. 

More and more people and gov entities are coming to the conclusion that this is endemic and one just has to live with it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You inadvertently hit on the problem with your own logic The first question is does the vaccine “work”. If yes there’s no problem.  If no there’s a problem. The next question is if there’s a problem what do you want to do about it.  Be Asian isn’t an option. So the question is (which you always dodge) what do you want to do about it
> 
> if you think there’s declining immunity what do you want to do about it and how long (what’s the off ramp)? Sometimes the answer to “something must be done” is “nothing can be done” or “very little”. It’s childish not to accept that reality.


I was mocking you.  "Do vaccines work" is not a yes/no question, nor does it have a one dimensional answer.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I was mocking you.  "Do vaccines work" is not a yes/no question, nor does it have a one dimensional answer.


As we have discussed before, it depends on the definition of work (which is why I put it in quotes).  In your example, it's a. whether they are bullet proof for the eldery and immunocompromised....which is clear the answer is now no. and b. whether they stop community spread....which again the answer is no, especially in light of the omicron.  You used a subtle insult (despite always complaining about ads yourself) but you inadvertently revealed the problems with your own logic, so the eggs on your face.

And then, yet again, despite people pointing out with you the problems of "social distancing" and "indoors", you decline yet again to get to the meat of your response and explain your policy.  As usual, all that you are left with is preaching, and yelling at everyone to "do better".


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> I get the point, however my point is that the "protection" offered by the constitution is paper thin (sic), as it is open to the interpretation of SCOTUS at a moment in time. It also takes time to get to that point, and restrictions can be in place while that goes ahead - the current TX case being a perfect example of where SCOTUS have allowed it to stay in place.
> 
> Some examples, the 1st amendment has exceptions, as decided by SCOTUS, they could be expanded by SCOTUS on a whim. The 2nd could be interpreted by SCOTUS to ensure you had to part of a militia to be in possession of a fire arm, with those *regulated *militias (& membership of) being approved by the "authorities".  So SCOTUS could disarm the population and take away your right to say anything about it if aligned with a Presidency/Congress that was cool with that. That's how useful the constitution is.


The Constitution and Scotus work, but are not perfect.  The vast majority of SCOTUS decisions are unanimous.  Your concern for the politicization of the Court is a fair concern, but in most cases is greatly exaggerated by one side for fear mongering purposes.  Remember how ACB was vilified by the left in her confirmation hearing because she was going to overturn Obamacare leaving people to die without healthcare?  Well the that case has been ruled on and she voted in favor of the Obamacare issue.

Even though they didn't block the Texas abortion law (which may or may not be a State issue), SCOTUS ruled 8-1 to allow the lawsuits against the law to move forward.









						Supreme Court defies critics with wave of unanimous decisions
					

The nine justices have charted a surprising course down the middle in 2021, handing down more unanimous opinions than any time in at least the last seven years.




					abcnews.go.com
				




An ABC News analysis found 67% of the court's opinions in cases argued during the term that ends this month have been unanimous or near-unanimous with just one justice dissenting.

That compares to just 46% of unanimous or near-unanimous decisions during the 2019 term and the 48% average unanimous decision rate of the past decade, according to SCOTUSblog.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The Constitution and Scotus work, but are not perfect.  The vast majority of SCOTUS decisions are unanimous.  Your concern for the politicization of the Court is a fair concern, but in most cases is greatly exaggerated by one side for fear mongering purposes.  Remember how ACB was vilified by the left in her confirmation hearing because she was going to overturn Obamacare leaving people to die without healthcare?  Well the that case has been ruled on and she voted in favor of the Obamacare issue.
> 
> Even though they didn't block the Texas abortion law (which may or may not be a State issue), SCOTUS ruled 8-1 to allow the lawsuits against the law to move forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court defies critics with wave of unanimous decisions
> 
> 
> The nine justices have charted a surprising course down the middle in 2021, handing down more unanimous opinions than any time in at least the last seven years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An ABC News analysis found 67% of the court's opinions in cases argued during the term that ends this month have been unanimous or near-unanimous with just one justice dissenting.
> 
> That compares to just 46% of unanimous or near-unanimous decisions during the 2019 term and the 48% average unanimous decision rate of the past decade, according to SCOTUSblog.


I don't think people realize how frequently they have many members on board with their decisions to create large majority opinions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As we have discussed before, it depends on the definition of work (which is why I put it in quotes).  In your example, it's a. whether they are bullet proof for the eldery and immunocompromised....which is clear the answer is now no. and b. whether they stop community spread....which again the answer is no, especially in light of the omicron.  You used a subtle insult (despite always complaining about ads yourself) but you inadvertently revealed the problems with your own logic, so the eggs on your face.
> 
> And then, yet again, despite people pointing out with you the problems of "social distancing" and "indoors", you decline yet again to get to the meat of your response and explain your policy.  As usual, all that you are left with is preaching, and yelling at everyone to "do better".


My fake argument only sounds convincing if you are incapable of contemplating questions which lack a yes/no answer.

Why should we wear masks?  Do we trust our vaccine or not?

For comparison, why do you wear a seat belt?  Do you trust your brakes or not?

It's the same stupid argument.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> My fake argument only sounds convincing if you are incapable of contemplating questions which lack a yes/no answer.
> 
> Why should we wear masks?  Do we trust our vaccine or not?
> 
> For comparison, why do you wear a seat belt?  Do you trust your brakes or not?
> 
> It's the same stupid argument.


And that's where your math fails.  Why you should have spent more time with logic.  To get policy, you have to ascribe yes or no answers.  It's yes or no to definitional question.  It's why we have decision trees.  For example...for seatbelts...do seatbelts "work" with "work" being defined as an x reduction in deaths.

But in the scenario you laid out (which had 2 contrasting scenarios for whether the vaccine "worked"), there are two questions that need answering: a. Do they "work" for the elderly and immunocompromised ("work" being defined as reduced to a statistically insignificant chance of death, the answer being what we now know as no), and b. Do they "work" for preventing transmission ("work" being defined as a substantial reduction in the ability to catch and transmit COVID, with which the omicron we also know the answer is no).

Now particular scenarios might be much more complicated than that (which is why policy making is not perfect and precise like mathematics) but it does require us to get to yes or no answer if we are to proceed with policy solutions.  On your decision tree, we are still stuck in phase 2, what are your preferred solutions, which you still continue to duck, given what's been pointed out to you now by numerous people.


----------



## Grace T.

Opinion | Coercion Made the Pandemic Worse
					

Freedom is the central component of the best problem-solving system ever devised.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Ellejustus

I Love that sneaky little Catturd...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> My fake argument only sounds convincing if you are incapable of contemplating questions which lack a yes/no answer.
> 
> Why should we wear masks?  Do we trust our vaccine or not?
> 
> For comparison, why do you wear a seat belt?  Do you trust your brakes or not?
> 
> It's the same stupid argument.


Last time I checked, you don’t inject a seatbelt into your body, nor are there potential adverse reactions to simply wearing one.  Your comparison lacks equivalencies.

How many vaccines still allow the “host” to catch and communicate the disease it is intended to immunize the host from?


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How many vaccines still allow the “host” to catch and communicate the disease it is intended to immunize the host from?


Well we know a number of them drop off dramatically within 10 weeks of a booster as it relates to omicron. 

We know that vaxxed or not, omicron spreads very easily. 

The reality is the current vaccines were designed for the earlier variants. Which makes it not surprising they do not do very well vs the latest variant. 

Either way as we move into yr 3 of this, people are moving on. Now 3 yrs in, people like dad still don't realize they are fighting a losing battle. 

We were never going to stop a virus like this that circulates so easily.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> And that's where your math fails.  Why you should have spent more time with logic.  To get policy, you have to ascribe yes or no answers.  It's yes or no to definitional question.  It's why we have decision trees.  For example...for seatbelts...do seatbelts "work" with "work" being defined as an x reduction in deaths.
> 
> But in the scenario you laid out (which had 2 contrasting scenarios for whether the vaccine "worked"), there are two questions that need answering: a. Do they "work" for the elderly and immunocompromised ("work" being defined as reduced to a statistically insignificant chance of death, the answer being what we now know as no), and b. Do they "work" for preventing transmission ("work" being defined as a substantial reduction in the ability to catch and transmit COVID, with which the omicron we also know the answer is no).
> 
> Now particular scenarios might be much more complicated than that (which is why policy making is not perfect and precise like mathematics) but it does require us to get to yes or no answer if we are to proceed with policy solutions.  On your decision tree, we are still stuck in phase 2, what are your preferred solutions, which you still continue to duck, given what's been pointed out to you now by numerous people.


More logic?   Here you go:

Sentences one and two are just insults.  Your false dichotomy fallacy is in sentence three.  Everything else is word spam, and can be ignored because it builds off your initial false claim.


----------



## Desert Hound

GOOD: Immune response to seasonal coronaviruses may offer protection against COVID-19. So lockdowns that prevented people from getting seasonal colds may have made them more likely to suffer from Covid


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I don't think people realize how frequently they have many members on board with their decisions to create large majority opinions.


Its pretty amazing when you think about it, try getting a group of 9 people from diverse backgrounds to agree on anything.  Of course it doesnt fit the political narrative, so the partisans ignore the fact that SCOTUS generally agrees on matters.  The other issue that is often ignored is these cases have their own unique fact patterns, but partisans attempt to boil it down to pro this or anti that.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Endemic does not have to mean ubiquitous.  We chose that option.
> 
> We could have chosen to meet outdoors, get vaccinated, wear masks, and keep our distance.  We didn't.  And we still aren't.
> 
> I certainly don't mean the CDC change.  The CDC change is mostly about helping businesses meet staffing needs by allowing people to come in while sick.  I'd be curious to see why they think it will work, instead of just accelerating the Omicron wave.


We never had the option.  The complexity of the virus put the writing on the wall very early.  It's unfortunate that transparency isn't a trait the government exhibits. 

We met outdoors, we've deployed a leaky vaccine, we've worn masks and we've kept our distance.  We did some of these pretty good for two weeks or so.  Some parts of the country have done the mask and social distance thing better than others.  The vaccine was sold as the end of the pandemic - just ask maddow. 

Society doesn't  allow us to do all of these in any type of permanent state, it's not the way humans and our economy operate.  The best thing that has happened so far is the omicron mutation.  Keep fingers crossed that data coming out of Florida continues to trend in the right direction, verifying that SA health officials are right.   Now, if only we can crank up production of the only MABs that works on omicron and get it on the street as quickly as possible.  The urgency for testing kits is rather late and effort may wasted on something that shoulnd't be such a high priority.  Just ask health care providers in Vermont what happens when everyone and their mother in small rural areas test postive for omicron.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Society doesn't allow us to do all of these in any type of permanent state, it's not the way humans and our economy operate.


This is the part dad fails at time and time again. 

He doesn't do real world. 

As you said that is not the way we operate.


----------



## Desert Hound

__





						The American Dream is on Life Support in the Bay Area
					

This is not a “fuck SF” post. This is a lament of what has been lost, and a wistfulness for what could have been.



					hariraghavan.com


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> I’m waiting for one of you to realize that declining immunity pokes a big hole in your “protect only the vulnerable” plan.


I think you confused ‘recommended policy’ with ‘plan’.

Covid-0 was never a viable ‘plan’ and those ‘recommended policies’ should have been ‘protect the vulnerable’.  

Once you get to herd immunity, the deaths of the vulnerable are baked in. When are you going to realize that?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> We could have chosen to meet outdoors, get vaccinated, wear masks, and keep our distance.  We didn't.  And we still aren't.


WTF! ‘We’ could have chosen?  What we? Is this a personal pronoun that I’m misusing? The ‘we’ in the rest of the world or just your neighborhood, ‘Ken’?

Last I checked, this pandemic is global.  There is not enough vaccine for the world… let alone boosters in 10wk intervals… and the ‘rest of the world’ needs to work ‘at work’ or much worse outcomes await.

Bah, humbug.. what you’re writing is a Passion Play!


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> My fake argument only sounds convincing if you are incapable of contemplating questions which lack a yes/no answer.
> 
> Why should we wear masks?  Do we trust our vaccine or not?
> 
> For comparison, why do you wear a seat belt?  Do you trust your brakes or not?
> 
> It's the same stupid argument.


Vindicated by Fauci no less. Good job if you didn't jab, especially your kids. On the other hand, must suck having to wait and wonder if you damaged your kids.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475868168891600898


----------



## thirteenknots

The Gateway Pundit has a large posting of videos from various nurses from around the world
below:

SHOCKING: Compilation of Nurse Whistleblowers from Around the World Warning About COVID Vaccines (thegatewaypundit.com)


The majority of individuals who have received any of these Filthy vaccines have either
submitted due to pier pressure/financial pressure or a combination of both due to Government
mandates or massive disinformation.

This whole pandemic is a manufactured crisis to instill control over the populace and eliminate
a large swath of the planets inhabitants.

If you think I'm full of shit just wait until this coming summer of 2022, this is going to go full
critical mass in a six month period.
There is no way in hell anyone can explain away the deaths that we are now witnessing....
Absolutely no way !!!

PURE EVIL !


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> I think you confused ‘recommended policy’ with ‘plan’.
> 
> Covid-0 was never a viable ‘plan’ and those ‘recommended policies’ should have been ‘protect the vulnerable’.
> 
> Once you get to herd immunity, the deaths of the vulnerable are baked in. When are you going to realize that?


I look at you guys as the public health equivalent of the Seattle rioters.

You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard, you can get rid of the laws meant to protect you.

You also both have self serving explanations for why the inevitable deaths aren't really your fault.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> More logic?   Here you go:
> 
> Sentences one and two are just insults.  Your false dichotomy fallacy is in sentence three.  Everything else is word spam, and can be ignored because it builds off your initial false claim.


Orwellian translator:

"Sentences and two are just insults"= I'm allowed to be nasty.  You aren't.  I'm allowed to be condescending.  You aren't.
"Your false dichotomy fallacy is in sentence three"= I'm rejecting the premise of everything you say because I don't want to discuss policy.  I just want to preach and berate people, which is what I enjoy doing.
"Everything else is word spam"= I don't want to hear it.
"and can be ignored"= sticking my fingers in my ears....falalalalala....not hearing it
"because it builds off your initial false claim"= If I wave my hand, I can make it go away and not have to address the merits and I can decline again to state my policy proposal and just harangue everyone for their failures which I can blame the current situation on.
[built in subtext]=I'm just so smart.  I'm so virtuous.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I look at you guys as the public health equivalent of the Seattle rioters.
> 
> You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard, you can get rid of the laws meant to protect you.
> 
> You also both have self serving explanations for why the inevitable deaths aren't really your fault.


Orwellian translator

"I look at you guys"= I like looking down my nose at you
"as the public health equivalent of the Seattle rioters"= you guys are evil and a public menace
"You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard"= I'm just being condescending and mocking you here.  You guys work hard like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum
"you can get rid of the laws"= I'm calling these decrees laws (even though they were never passed by legislatures), because I want to give them extra weight
"meant to protect you"=folks like me and my experts know what's best for you peons.
"why inevitable deaths aren't really your fault"= I still believe in COVID0 and any deaths are the result of your moral failings.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard, you can get rid of the laws meant to protect you.


Fail again. 

The laws/policies didn't stop the covid. 

Outside of shutting down for a couple of weeks, biz, families, kids, etc cannot survive without being out and about working, learning, socializing, etc for any length of time.

It was never going to work. Understanding economics, humans, etc would have told you this. Your models never took into account how the real world works, which means the models are/were worthless.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Orwellian translator:
> 
> "Sentences and two are just insults"= I'm allowed to be nasty.  You aren't.  I'm allowed to be condescending.  You aren't.
> "Your false dichotomy fallacy is in sentence three"= I'm rejecting the premise of everything you say because I don't want to discuss policy.  I just want to preach and berate people, which is what I enjoy doing.
> "Everything else is word spam"= I don't want to hear it.
> "and can be ignored"= sticking my fingers in my ears....falalalalala....not hearing it
> "because it builds off your initial false claim"= If I wave my hand, I can make it go away and not have to address the merits and I can decline again to state my policy proposal and just harangue everyone for their failures which I can blame the current situation on.
> [built in subtext]=I'm just so smart.  I'm so virtuous.


You're the one who built a whole house of cards on an obvious falsehood.

You claimed that it is impossible to make policy without reducing every complexity to a yes/no question.  The claim is clearly false.  

Don't blame me for noticing it.  It all falls down.  Next time, don't build your card castle on the trampoline.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> You also both have self serving explanations for why the inevitable deaths aren't really your fault.


Your self-serving explanation has been blaming the behavior of ‘others’ this whole time.  

Grow up, @dad4

That’s the kind of behavior I don’t accept from my children.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You're the one who built a whole house of cards on an obvious falsehood.
> 
> You claimed that it is impossible to make policy without reducing every complexity to a yes/no question.  The claim is clearly false.
> 
> Don't blame me for noticing it.  It all falls down.  Next time, don't build your card castle on the trampoline.


Touchy touchy, aren't we.  That's how you do policy dude.  You have to reduce it to yes or no questions or you can't decision tree it.  I know it's frustrating for a math guy who is used to precision and certainty but that's not simply how policy works.  Way too many variables.  Guess now we know why you like to preach and don't like to do policy....why you prefer the theoretical to the real world.  Otherwise man you just go round and round in circles and can never reach a decision.  Every decision in the end is a go/no go....every policy proposal results in a binary choice.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Fail again.
> 
> The laws/policies didn't stop the covid.
> 
> Outside of shutting down for a couple of weeks, biz, families, kids, etc cannot survive without being out and about working, learning, socializing, etc for any length of time.
> 
> It was never going to work. Understanding economics, humans, etc would have told you this. Your models never took into account how the real world works, which means the models are/were worthless.


The CDC guidelines, which you have ignored since last May, didn't work?

Gosh.  I wonder why not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Your self-serving explanation has been blaming the behavior of ‘others’ this whole time.
> 
> Grow up, @dad4
> 
> That’s the kind of behavior I don’t accept from my children.


It takes a village.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Fail again.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The CDC guidelines, which you have ignored since last May, didn't work?
> 
> Gosh.  I wonder why not.


You've practically devolved in hysterics today you've blamed the failure of everything you ever hoped for on everyone else.  In the end, that's where what little policy you have lies.  It's not that you and your ilk erred...the science TM was flawless....the fault is in all of us and our moral failings, which is why we are damned.  Full preacher mode.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Touchy touchy, aren't we.  That's how you do policy dude.  You have to reduce it to yes or no questions or you can't decision tree it.  I know it's frustrating for a math guy who is used to precision and certainty but that's not simply how policy works.  Way to many variables.


Impossible to make a decision without reducing everything to boolean variables?

You sure you want to choose that as your hill to defend?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Impossible to make a decision without reducing everything to boolean variables?
> 
> You sure you want to choose that as your hill to defend?


Dude it's the way it works when you have to do policy.  A policy is a proposal to take action (most of the time to use force or to spend money).  It's a simple go or no go.  There isn't a middle ground...you do it or you don't.  You can revise it but then it's a new proposal which you have to subject to the same test: go or no go.  It's binary.  Again, know that's though for a math guy to accept, but that's how humans work.  Otherwise you aren't doing anything....you aren't making decisions....you are just spinning your wheels.

Where it gets complicated is in the definitions and in the wording of the policy proposal, but ultimately it's yes or no.  It's also BTW, how legislatures operate...pass or don't pass (and if you amend, it goes back to square one and you have to do pass or don't pass again).  It's really really basic poli sci stuff dude....it's how it works....and I get that you hate it but tough....as others have said, grow up.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You've practically devolved in hysterics today you've blamed the failure of everything you ever hoped for on everyone else.  In the end, that's where what little policy you have lies.  It's not that you and your ilk erred...the science TM was flawless....the fault is in all of us and our moral failings, which is why we are damned.  Full preacher mode.


Hysterics?

I just pointed out the hypocrisy.   Hound spent 18 months bragging about ignoring CDC guidelines.   Now he is complaining that the rules didn't work.

If he didn't do it, then who is he to complain that it didn't work?  It's like buying a diet book and two dozen donuts.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The point is I am contrasting our country with those protections in place vs those who don't have them...ie Australia and NZ.
> 
> Since their governments didn't have hurdles to overcome, they simply did what they wanted.
> 
> Us having a constitution put the brakes on those desires by some in power.
> 
> You are correct that it is far from perfect protection. However I would rather start off having them in place vs being in a country where one does not.


Australia has a Constitution and a Supreme Court.  New Zealand has an "unwritten" Consitution consisting of court precedents and acts of their parliament, including a Bill of Rights Act that requires 75% vote of the Parliament to modify; also a Supreme Court.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Hysterics?
> 
> I just pointed out the hypocrisy.   Hound spent 18 months bragging about ignoring CDC guidelines.   Now he is complaining that the rules didn't work.
> 
> If he didn't do it, then who is he to complain that it didn't work?  It's like buying a diet book and two dozen donuts.


I saw Hound at the fields twice and both times he had a mask on.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Hysterics?
> 
> I just pointed out the hypocrisy.   Hound spent 18 months bragging about ignoring CDC guidelines.   Now he is complaining that the rules didn't work.
> 
> If he didn't do it, then who is he to complain that it didn't work?  It's like buying a diet book and two dozen donuts.


As before, if your policy depends upon people being angels, then it's destined to fail.  Another example why you'd prefer to do morality insead of policy.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> The Constitution and Scotus work, but are not perfect.  The vast majority of SCOTUS decisions are unanimous.  Your concern for the politicization of the Court is a fair concern, but in most cases is greatly exaggerated by one side for fear mongering purposes.  Remember how ACB was vilified by the left in her confirmation hearing because she was going to overturn Obamacare leaving people to die without healthcare?  Well the that case has been ruled on and she voted in favor of the Obamacare issue.
> 
> Even though they didn't block the Texas abortion law (which may or may not be a State issue), SCOTUS ruled 8-1 to allow the lawsuits against the law to move forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court defies critics with wave of unanimous decisions
> 
> 
> The nine justices have charted a surprising course down the middle in 2021, handing down more unanimous opinions than any time in at least the last seven years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An ABC News analysis found 67% of the court's opinions in cases argued during the term that ends this month have been unanimous or near-unanimous with just one justice dissenting.
> 
> That compares to just 46% of unanimous or near-unanimous decisions during the 2019 term and the 48% average unanimous decision rate of the past decade, according to SCOTUSblog.


The vast majority of SCOTUS "decisions" are decisions by a single Justice not to hear a case, which holds unless some other Justices overrule him.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Orwellian translator
> 
> "I look at you guys"= I like looking down my nose at you
> "as the public health equivalent of the Seattle rioters"= you guys are evil and a public menace
> "You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard"= I'm just being condescending and mocking you here.  You guys work hard like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum
> "you can get rid of the laws"= I'm calling these decrees laws (even though they were never passed by legislatures), because I want to give them extra weight
> "meant to protect you"=folks like me and my experts know what's best for you peons.
> "why inevitable deaths aren't really your fault"= I still believe in COVID0 and any deaths are the result of your moral failings.


That says a lot more about you than it does about him.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That says a lot more about you than it does about him.


Orwellian translator:

a subtle put down lacking any quantitative support.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Orwellian translator:
> 
> a subtle put down lacking any quantitative support.


It seems that you agree with me.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It seems that you agree with me.


Orwellian translator:

he's confused again.


----------



## Brav520

Covid Panic is a Site of Inter-Elite Competition
					

to be the most consumed with fear of Covid is just another PMC laurel




					freddiedeboer.substack.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I look at you guys as the public health equivalent of the Seattle rioters.
> 
> You both demonstrated that, if you work at it really hard, you can get rid of the laws meant to protect you.
> 
> You also both have self serving explanations for why the inevitable deaths aren't really your fault.


Inevitable?????  Strong word for something with over a 98% survival rate.


----------



## Ellejustus

UCLA pulls out of Holiday Bowl, irking NC State
					

UCLA was forced to pull out of the Holiday Bowl because of COVID-19 problems only hours before the Bruins were scheduled to play NC State in San Diego.




					www.espn.com
				




*UCLA Bruins pull out of Holiday Bowl hours before kickoff due to COVID-19 protocols, irking NC State Wolfpack*


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> UCLA pulls out of Holiday Bowl, irking NC State
> 
> 
> UCLA was forced to pull out of the Holiday Bowl because of COVID-19 problems only hours before the Bruins were scheduled to play NC State in San Diego.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *UCLA Bruins pull out of Holiday Bowl hours before kickoff due to COVID-19 protocols, irking NC State Wolfpack*


So lame.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> It takes a village.


Thanks.  Glad to hear you think accountability is important.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Hysterics?
> 
> I just pointed out the hypocrisy.


This is where I was at several posts ago.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

COVID vaccine cocktails: A guide to mixing and matching Pfizer, Moderna, J&J booster shots
					

If you're eligible for a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, you don't have to stick with the same company that manufactured your primary dose(s).



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Hysterics?
> 
> I just pointed out the hypocrisy.   Hound spent 18 months bragging about ignoring CDC guidelines.   Now he is complaining that the rules didn't work.
> 
> If he didn't do it, then who is he to complain that it didn't work?  It's like buying a diet book and two dozen donuts.


I didn't brag about breaking any rules.

If a place said I had to wear a mask I did. If the city said I had to watch soccer from the street I did. When my kids had to wear masks they did.

I just have said this wouldn't work. People have to work. Have to go into work. Have to go to school etc.

The reality with that in mind it was clear we would never stop a highly contagious respiratory virus.

And with that in mind said we have to live with it. Especially in light of the fact there are only a few groups of people at risk. The majority of people...have no real risk.

I deal in reality.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So lame.


Totally.

College age kids have zero risk.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Hysterics?
> 
> I just pointed out the hypocrisy.   Hound spent 18 months bragging about ignoring CDC guidelines.   Now he is complaining that the rules didn't work.
> 
> If he didn't do it, then who is he to complain that it didn't work?  It's like buying a diet book and two dozen donuts.


This sums up dad very well.

"In October, novelist and essayist Ann Bauer wrote a poignant column, “I Have Been Through This Before,” on her discomfort with the parade of cocksure COVID experts issuing ever-changing diktats and pronouncements. When vaccines didn’t end the pandemic, she wrote, “doctors and officials blamed their audience of 3 billion for the disease. The more the cures failed, the greater the fault of the public.”


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> This sums up dad very well.
> 
> "In October, novelist and essayist Ann Bauer wrote a poignant column, “I Have Been Through This Before,” on her discomfort with the parade of cocksure COVID experts issuing ever-changing diktats and pronouncements. When vaccines didn’t end the pandemic, she wrote, “doctors and officials blamed their audience of 3 billion for the disease. The more the cures failed, the greater the fault of the public.”


A large segment of the Covidians view this as a morality play. It's why they took the attitude Florida deserved what they got (only now is there no federal solution and its a state problem).  It's why faith in masks is so important, and why you aren't allowed to even question.  It's why they require vaccination from everyone as a sacrifice (regardless of transmission or risk to the individual). It's why "good" behavior (like distancing and following the guidelines) is required.  When it fails, it's because of the sinners, not the policy (if they even articulated one).  Because surely this can't be happening to the good people of the blue states who followed all of the guidance.


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like the Chicago teachers union is trying to force them to go remote (notwithstanding the Biden admin's missive that schools should not be shutting down)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475995443041652746


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Totally.
> 
> College age kids have zero risk.


It seems like this virus is attacking UCLA sports.  Bummer....


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> COVID vaccine cocktails: A guide to mixing and matching Pfizer, Moderna, J&J booster shots
> 
> 
> If you're eligible for a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, you don't have to stick with the same company that manufactured your primary dose(s).
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com



The forum drunk via his post advocating/recommending worthless " Cocktails " of the Death Jab.
Now that is just plain insanity.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Australia has a Constitution and a Supreme Court.  New Zealand has an "unwritten" Consitution consisting of court precedents and acts of their parliament, including a Bill of Rights Act that requires 75% vote of the Parliament to modify; also a Supreme Court.



Breeding with sheep has brought them to the present day insanity of Covid tyranny.
Your ancestors you deny.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> It takes a village.


Let me guess: skinny jeans, tight "I'M WITH HER" t-shirt, and a murse...that about right?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A large segment of the Covidians view this as a morality play. It's why they took the attitude Florida deserved what they got (only now is there no federal solution and its a state problem).  It's why faith in masks is so important, and why you aren't allowed to even question.  It's why they require vaccination from everyone as a sacrifice (regardless of transmission or risk to the individual). It's why "good" behavior (like distancing and following the guidelines) is required.  When it fails, it's because of the sinners, not the policy (if they even articulated one).  Because surely this can't be happening to the good people of the blue states who followed all of the guidance.


What's a covidian?


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> A large segment of the Covidians view this as a morality play. It's why they took the attitude Florida deserved what they got (only now is there no federal solution and its a state problem).  It's why faith in masks is so important, and why you aren't allowed to even question.  It's why they require vaccination from everyone as a sacrifice (regardless of transmission or risk to the individual). It's why "good" behavior (like distancing and following the guidelines) is required.  When it fails, it's because of the sinners, not the policy (if they even articulated one).  Because surely this can't be happening to the good people of the blue states who followed all of the guidance.


It's also why we have a 2nd Amendment.


----------



## espola




----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What's a covidian?


Karen the ego can’t be bothered with answering for her actions. The new breed don’t do personal responsibility. They create their own reality.


----------



## Desert Hound

To be fair a lot of vaccinated people are shocked that their vaxx doesn't stop them from getting or spreading the virus 

Dad are you double masking n95s?



But some are not surprised.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The American Dream is on Life Support in the Bay Area
> 
> 
> This is not a “fuck SF” post. This is a lament of what has been lost, and a wistfulness for what could have been.
> 
> 
> 
> hariraghavan.com


Great read but sad for SF.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Karen the ego can’t be bothered with answering for her actions. The new breed don’t do personal responsibility. They create their own reality.


Meh, unless you are old like espola (who gets a pass for being selfish considering he's vulnerable) or immunocompromised, you guys are the selfish ones inflicting untold damage especially on children because you want to avoid your cold.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Karen the ego can’t be bothered with answering for her actions. The new breed don’t do personal responsibility. They create their own reality.


The Karen now is on the other foot.....


----------



## Grace T.

Wow....public health is deliberately distorting tiny numbers to scare pediatricians and parents into child vaccination....you really can't take at face value anything these people say.









						Pediatric hospitalizations up 395% in NYC amid COVID-19 surge
					

New York State reported a "striking increase" in new hospital admissions for children as pediatric COVID cases in the U.S. continue to rise.




					abc7ny.com
				





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475893919422496775
The truth is all indications are that omicron is not more severe in children.









						Omicron Is Not More Severe for Children, Despite Rising Hospitalizations
					

More children are being treated for Covid, but a combination of factors, including low vaccination rates, most likely explains the increase.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> To be fair a lot of vaccinated people are shocked that their vaxx doesn't stop them from getting or spreading the virus
> 
> Dad are you double masking n95s?


Double mask N95?   I do not.

I am vaccinated, and I mostly just meet people outside.  No need for more than that, unless they are a close talker.  Then I mask up, which reminds them to back off.

So nice of you to express concern for how others are managing these days.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh, unless you are old like espola (who gets a pass for being selfish considering he's vulnerable) or immunocompromised, you guys are the selfish ones inflicting untold damage especially on children because you want to avoid your cold.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

You can't make this up but it's 100% true.  A friend of friend got whacked from her nurse job because of the mandates Nov 15th, 2021.  She was called by old boss asking if she would like her job back and if she can work Christmas week and New Years week for double pay because the one's WHO obeyed to keep job are now sick and can't work and their way under staffed.  You seriously can;t make this up.  She told them to buzz off and she already has a new job starting Jan 3rd, 2022.


----------



## Ellejustus

Espola & Husler and Dad, please watch this teacher explain vax vs non vax.  









						SHOW THIS TO YOUR SHEEPLE FRIENDS
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## dawson

Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks? 

And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


----------



## dad4

dawson said:


> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


My bet is most teams will lose several players in early January.  Not all at once, and most will be asymptomatic, but they'll each be out for 5 days.  

Assuming the teams each have a deep bench, schedules should be more or less intact.  

If it gets bad, you may also have some schools which extend winter break a week or two.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dawson said:


> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


An actual soccer question on a soccer forum? How dare you! .

In CA the cases are still relatively low. We haven't seen the surge due to Omicron yet. I'd guess that the rules for your local public schools will apply to the local soccer teams. That's probably bad news at some point for LA County and Santa Clara County but less so elsewhere. I'd agree with @dad4 about the general loss of players due to a positive test - pretty much an extension of what we are seeing with professional and collegiate sports.


----------



## Ellejustus

dawson said:


> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


I prepped my player to *prepare for the worse*.  Omicron will cancel all games like UCLA had to do.  Or even worse, no booster=no play.  We *hope for the best* that all the girls can finish what they started.  I hope better minds will leads us out of this mess.  One can only hope this awful nightmare will soon end for kids sakes.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The American Dream is on Life Support in the Bay Area
> 
> 
> This is not a “fuck SF” post. This is a lament of what has been lost, and a wistfulness for what could have been.
> 
> 
> 
> hariraghavan.com


Interesting read.  SF is a miserably failed social experiment. Whats more craxy is there are other cities following SF's blueprint down the drain.


----------



## dad4

Don't take the college comparison too far.  Colleges have it worse.

Unless your kid goes to boarding school, you don't have an athletic dorm outbreak making sure the cases all arrive the same weekend.  

High schools should have their cases a little more spread out.  All the same month instead of all the same week.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Looks like the Chicago teachers union is trying to force them to go remote (notwithstanding the Biden admin's missive that schools should not be shutting down)
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475995443041652746


I hope the tide is turning on closing schools.  Both the NY health commissioner and mayor elect Adams are unequivocal about not closing schools.  Adams said that kids are safer in school and the commish said that interrupting education is worse than Covid.  Kudos to them for exercising common sense which isnt so common these days.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Don't take the college comparison too far.  Colleges have it worse.
> 
> Unless your kid goes to boarding school, you don't have an athletic dorm outbreak making sure the cases all arrive the same weekend.
> 
> High schools should have their cases a little more spread out.  All the same month instead of all the same week.


Hey Dad, stop drinking the Kool Aid bro.  Way too much for you.  I feel for you today unlike other days where I let myself get trigged by your red lips.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


>











						COVID Hysteria Is Destroying the Lives of Disabled Children Like Mine
					

Your hysterical need to feel absolutely safe beyond measure is coming at someone's expense—someone much more vulnerable than you. Can you live with that?




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> My bet is most teams will lose several players in early January.  Not all at once, and most will be asymptomatic, but they'll each be out for 5 days.
> 
> Assuming the teams each have a deep bench, schedules should be more or less intact.
> 
> If it gets bad, you may also have some schools which extend winter break a week or two.


Entire teams had games scratched for the football season up and down California not just because a few players were sick but the entire team was exposed during practice.  At the early part of the season when the wave was still "high" in SoCal, there were a moderate amount of disruptions to the football schedule.  I know the CDC guidance has been tweaked, but have the sports quarantine rules in California changed?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> COVID Hysteria Is Destroying the Lives of Disabled Children Like Mine
> 
> 
> Your hysterical need to feel absolutely safe beyond measure is coming at someone's expense—someone much more vulnerable than you. Can you live with that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


Some people are incapable of seeing another perspective due to their own fears.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Some people are incapable of seeing another perspective due to their own fears.


Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Wow....public health is deliberately distorting tiny numbers to scare pediatricians and parents into child vaccination....you really can't take at face value anything these people say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pediatric hospitalizations up 395% in NYC amid COVID-19 surge
> 
> 
> New York State reported a "striking increase" in new hospital admissions for children as pediatric COVID cases in the U.S. continue to rise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7ny.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475893919422496775
> The truth is all indications are that omicron is not more severe in children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron Is Not More Severe for Children, Despite Rising Hospitalizations
> 
> 
> More children are being treated for Covid, but a combination of factors, including low vaccination rates, most likely explains the increase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


So predictable. No one is listening to this type of reporting.  The train has left the station.  Maybe they would be more credible if they reported all pediatric emergencies throughout the year (RSV comes to mind in certain parts of the country this past summer).

Or maybe report on the pandemic of covid +, a-symptomatic people clogging up ER rooms across the country - scared for their life that they are sent home with zpack and prednisone.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Entire teams had games scratched for the football season up and down California not just because a few players were sick but the entire team was exposed during practice.  At the early part of the season when the wave was still "high" in SoCal, there were a moderate amount of disruptions to the football schedule.  I know the CDC guidance has been tweaked, but have the sports quarantine rules in California changed?


I have it on good authority that kids that age don't get the disease.  (Unless you ddon't consider posters friendly to you in this thread to be a good authority.)


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.bitch that is new


Even Newsweek, the long-time 9th pup of the 8-nipple bitch that is current news reporting, labels it as opinion.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.


Wow. Tough guy trolling the mom of a handicapped kid who wrote about the struggles of her kid. Zero sympathy.  True trollish behavior. Almost eotl like. Maybe you aren’t the baby bear troll after all.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have it on good authority that kids that age don't get the disease.  (Unless you ddon't consider posters friendly to you in this thread to be a good authority.)


Oh please. For your reference that’s what you actually call strawmanning. My kid was one of the first to come down with it. No one here ever said “you’re lying” to me.  What we’ve said is they don’t come down with a severe form of the disease (mine was sick 2 days with bouts of asthma through 2020 summer, while I was severely ill 30+…,long covid for almost a year).


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> So predictable. No one is listening to this type of reporting.  The train has left the station.  Maybe they would be more credible if they reported all pediatric emergencies throughout the year (RSV comes to mind in certain parts of the country this past summer).
> 
> Or maybe report on the pandemic of covid +, a-symptomatic people clogging up ER rooms across the country - scared for their life that they are sent home with zpack and prednisone.


Well there still is about a 1/3 panicked out of their minds still. Mostly blue checks, some here on this forum. It’s this group the fear porn Is targeted to. They are the ones clogging up the er rooms in Vermont. It’s like the “handmaids tale” but for covid.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Wow. Tough guy trolling the mom of a handicapped kid who wrote about the struggles of her kid. Zero sympathy.  True trollish behavior. Almost eotl like. Maybe you aren’t the baby bear troll after all.


Its uncanny how they prove my point better than I can express it.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Newsweek lol! Yeah hysterical hysteria . . . people living in fear . . . I see it everywhere . . . at the restaurants . . . at ball games . . . at the beach. The horror . . . the horror.


Um...


dad4 said:


> I am vaccinated, and I mostly just meet people outside.  No need for more than that, unless they are a close talker.  Then I mask up, which reminds them to back off.


When it rises to anti-social behavior there is clearly a problem.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It’s this group the fear porn Is targeted to. They are the ones clogging up the er rooms in Vermont.


It works on my bro in law out in CA. He is Mr Mask and any and everything else. 

Went to a get together about a week ago. Found out someone there tested positive. He immediately makes an appointment to get in and see his doctor. He was freaked out (again). Wasn't feeling bad. No symptoms...but had to get in to see his doc. Doc said he was fine. 

Bro in law decided he better quarantine anyway and is still in his basement.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Well there still is about a 1/3 panicked out of their minds still. Mostly blue checks, some here on this forum. It’s this group the fear porn Is targeted to. They are the ones clogging up the er rooms in Vermont. It’s like the “handmaids tale” but for covid.


The blue check panic crowd has been hung out to dry..  This week has seen almost complete abdication of federal responsibility for covid management.  Tough trash talk at a virus was silly to begin with, as if a virus listens.  Even common sense guidance coming out of the CDC is laughable due to timing.   Hyped pediatric #s across the country are a last gasp from a group of people who peddle in contrived fear.  If only they could  tell the whole story behind the number(s).  Here in rainy AZ, positivity rate is going up, hospitalizations going down.  Trending very similar to other omicron surges. Cross fingers this remains true.  If you are a white male over  65, AZ  can be a dangerous place to be. 

The reality is that we are now endemic, for now anyway, if omicron continues to outcompete deadlier strains.   Pfizer and Merck have made a ton of money and now the government will sit on  a  mountain of almost useless anti virals that may not even be needed.  In the meantime, MABs are are in short supply and high demand.  Comedy of errors and miscalculations on strategy.  Throw away your cloth masks, because NOW they don't work and buy earth friendly surgical masks and K/N 95s to protect you from what's turning out to be cold.  And by the way, the Flu is back - the comback kid of 2021/22.  You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Oh please. For your reference that’s what you actually call strawmanning. My kid was one of the first to come down with it. No one here ever said “you’re lying” to me.  What we’ve said is they don’t come down with a severe form of the disease (mine was sick 2 days with bouts of asthma through 2020 summer, while I was severely ill 30+…,long covid for almost a year).


How many "zero risk" posts would you like me to quote?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Well there still is about a 1/3 panicked out of their minds still. Mostly blue checks, some here on this forum. It’s this group the fear porn Is targeted to. They are the ones clogging up the er rooms in Vermont. It’s like the “handmaids tale” but for covid.


Is "blue check" another name for "covidian"?   I'm trying hard to keep up.


----------



## espola

If you fear you are suffering from an attack of RAS syndrome, stop at the ATM machine on your way to the ER room.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Um...
> 
> When it rises to anti-social behavior there is clearly a problem.


I wonder about dad. 

He is still limiting activity it seems and meeting people outside. 

- he is vaxxed
- presumably boosted
- from what I can gather he is relatively young. 
- has no health issues

And yet acts as if he is at some kind of real risk.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I am vaccinated, and I mostly just meet people outside.  No need for more than that, unless they are a close talker.  Then I mask up, which reminds them to back off.


No need to be passive aggressive dad4.  I found this for you.  You can thank me later.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12531


Good.  It's about time they pulled the plug on this wanker.  This dude's bitterness was poison.  As soon as the Lasker got teed up he decided he'd try and get his 15 minutes.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I wonder about dad.
> 
> He is still limiting activity it seems and meeting people outside.
> 
> - he is vaxxed
> - presumably boosted
> - from what I can gather he is relatively young.
> - has no health issues
> 
> And yet acts as if he is at some kind of real risk.


His family, his call.  I think what you and I have a problem with is his projection on others behavior and his one size fits all myopic approach to fighting Covid.  My balanced approach has worked for my family with zero Covid unfortunately some cant respect it because we didnt do it their way.  They either dont understand or choose to ignore that every situation is different.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> His family, his call.  I think what you and I have a problem with is his projection on others behavior and his one size fits all myopic approach to fighting Covid.  My balanced approach has worked for my family with zero Covid unfortunately some cant respect it because we didnt do it their way.  They either dont understand or choose to ignore that every situation is different.


I agree his family his call. I just think he is overreacting/paranoid.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How many "zero risk" posts would you like me to quote?


Go for it.  Dare yah. I’m sure you’ll find some hyperbole out there but no one was arguing it was zero risk of catching illness (only near zero risk of death…minuscule risk of hospitalization/long covid…less dangerous than flu and rsv)


----------



## watfly

dawson said:


> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


Word on the street is that Poway Unified has suspended all sports.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Go for it.  Dare yah. I’m sure you’ll find some hyperbole out there but no one was arguing it was zero risk of catching illness (only near zero risk of death…minuscule risk of hospitalization/long covid…less dangerous than flu and rsv)


You read it your way because it fit your agenda.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You read it your way because it fit your agenda.


You should be staring into the mirror when you say that!


----------



## Ellejustus

*Fauci* is an Italian surname. It is derived from the Sicilian word for "sickle", and originated as an occupational surname referring metonymically to makers of sickles.[1][2] In Italy, 151 families bear the surname Fauci, with 67 in Sicily 

*Fauci on track to collect largest federal retirement in U.S. history: report
Fauci is currently the highest paid employee in the federal government*

**


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Word on the street is that Poway Unified has suspended all sports.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476240029995266054


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476240029995266054


Best news I heard all day.  Play ball!!!


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476240029995266054


Well thats good news.  I was misinformed by my wife.  Lesson learned


----------



## espola

Bluetooth earphones on --


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Wow. Tough guy trolling the mom of a handicapped kid who wrote about the struggles of her kid. Zero sympathy.  True trollish behavior. Almost eotl like. Maybe you aren’t the baby bear troll after all.


Play the victim much?


----------



## GoldenGate

[QUOTE="Ellejustus said:


> *Fauci* is an Italian surname. It is derived from the Sicilian word for "sickle", and originated as an occupational surname referring metonymically to makers of sickles.[1][2] In Italy, 151 families bear the surname Fauci, with 67 in Sicily
> 
> *Fauci on track to collect largest federal retirement in U.S. history: report
> Fauci is currently the highest paid employee in the federal government*
> 
> *View attachment 12534*


I love these memes.  Here are links to a bunch more from people who loved them like you right up until they fucking died.  What great Christmas presents they gave to their families, eh?  Tis the season to die from stupidity, so much so that this is just the last 24 hours worth of dumbfuck Herman Cain Award recipients. 


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqxgbf/_/https


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr7f8e


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rradhk


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rray0q


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr8lyf
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrgv02/virginia_blue_earns_a_hca/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrew78/lebanon_county_pa_commissioner_bill_ames_succumbs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrmplp/something_tells_me_he_did_not_spring_without_fear/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr1lo3/defiant_and_in_denial_about_covid19_until_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr0ht8/update_the_blood_of_jesus_was_unfortunately_not_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr5dtk/robin_fransman_public_figure_founder_of_herstelnl/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqohiw/hes_been_covid_shitposting_since_last_summer_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqrcoy/pa_firefightermedic_veteran_loved_visiting_disney/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqiiy8/repost_wbetter_redactions_purple_often_confided/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqys8d/41_yr_old_deputy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr12t5/she_stood_for_freedom_to_be_an_insurrectionist/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr0vic/update_antivaxx_pool_builder_gurgle_collected_her/


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You read it your way because it fit your agenda.


Attempting to dictate the narrative is all she’s got. She has fabricated an entire bubble of existence based solely on her own opinion and by quoting the ramblings of other likeminded and equally unqualified individuals.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> I love these memes.  Here are links to a bunch more from people who loved them like you right up until they fucking died.  What great Christmas presents they gave to their families, eh?  Tis the season to die from stupidity, so much so that this is just the last 24 hours worth of dumbfuck Herman Cain Award recipients.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqxgbf/_/https
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr7f8e
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rradhk
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rray0q
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr8lyf
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrgv02/virginia_blue_earns_a_hca/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrew78/lebanon_county_pa_commissioner_bill_ames_succumbs/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rrmplp/something_tells_me_he_did_not_spring_without_fear/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr1lo3/defiant_and_in_denial_about_covid19_until_the/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr0ht8/update_the_blood_of_jesus_was_unfortunately_not_a/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr5dtk/robin_fransman_public_figure_founder_of_herstelnl/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqohiw/hes_been_covid_shitposting_since_last_summer_a/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqrcoy/pa_firefightermedic_veteran_loved_visiting_disney/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqiiy8/repost_wbetter_redactions_purple_often_confided/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rqys8d/41_yr_old_deputy/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr12t5/she_stood_for_freedom_to_be_an_insurrectionist/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rr0vic/update_antivaxx_pool_builder_gurgle_collected_her/


Prove one of these is actually true and not just some made up story on the Internet.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Attempting to dictate the narrative is all she’s got. She has fabricated an entire bubble of existence based solely on her own opinion and by quoting the ramblings of other likeminded and equally unqualified individuals.


And she repeatedly invents (or perhaps imports from her favorite online boneheads) terms that she refuses to define.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Prove one of these is actually true and not just some made up story on the Internet.


"Ames was among the elected officials statewide who fought against Gov. Tom Wolf’s COVID-19 shutdown mandate in 2020. In May 2020 commissioners Ames and Phillips voted in support of a “protest resolution” against Wolf’s mandate ordering businesses closed to curb the spread of COVID. That successful vote threatened federal CARES Act aid for the county. "









						Lebanon County Commissioner William Ames dies at 81 of COVID-19 complications
					

Ames was in the middle of third four-year term in office. The Republican commissioner died on Tuesday morning at Good Samaritan Hospital.




					www.pennlive.com


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> And she repeatedly invents (or perhaps imports from her favorite online boneheads) terms that she refuses to define.


here you go sir

_and "Covidians," who are brainwashed into thinking we have an eternal pandemic and we should hide in a bubble for the rest of our lives._


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> And she repeatedly invents (or perhaps imports from her favorite online boneheads) terms that she refuses to define.


So where do the ‘Branch Covidians’ fit in relative to governmental vs personal rights?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> here you go sir
> 
> _and "Covidians," who are brainwashed into thinking we have an eternal pandemic and we should hide in a bubble for the rest of our lives._


Is that an attempt at a definition?

If so, name three covidians.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I wonder about dad.
> 
> He is still limiting activity it seems and meeting people outside.
> 
> - he is vaxxed
> - presumably boosted
> - from what I can gather he is relatively young.
> - has no health issues
> 
> And yet acts as if he is at some kind of real risk.


Yep.  Boosted, healthy, normal BMI, middle age but not elderly.

Why on earth would I listen to my public health department and do my part to avoid making things worse?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> "Ames was among the elected officials statewide who fought against Gov. Tom Wolf’s COVID-19 shutdown mandate in 2020. In May 2020 commissioners Ames and Phillips voted in support of a “protest resolution” against Wolf’s mandate ordering businesses closed to curb the spread of COVID. That successful vote threatened federal CARES Act aid for the county. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lebanon County Commissioner William Ames dies at 81 of COVID-19 complications
> 
> 
> Ames was in the middle of third four-year term in office. The Republican commissioner died on Tuesday morning at Good Samaritan Hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pennlive.com


He was 81 yrs old and against the shut down of businesses.  I could show you just as many 80+ Vax’d who also died of Covid……Next


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Is that an attempt at a definition?
> 
> If so, name three covidians.


Jack from DC, Mary Ann from LA , and Jason from Bakersfield


----------



## Grace T.

La County rumors.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476296588372836353


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Play the victim much?


Wow your calling the mother who's complaining for her handicapped kid in the newsweek article as "playing the victim".  How about "advocacy for your child".  Seriously, I know the troll thing is the standard troll act, but how can you look at yourself in the mirror?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Attempting to dictate the narrative is all she’s got. She has fabricated an entire bubble of existence based solely on her own opinion and by quoting the ramblings of other likeminded and equally unqualified individuals.


Here's what my Orwellian translator spit out:

"Attempting to dictate the narrative is all she's got"= I don't like it when she rebuts my narrative.  People shouldn't be allowed to disagree with me.
"She has fabricated"= Anything I disagree with is a lie
"an entire bubble of existence based solely on her own opinion"= My opinion is the one that matters.  Other people shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion that runs counter to mine.
"the rambling of other likeminded and equally unqualified individuals"= Anyone who disagrees with my opinion, even credentialed medical professionals or studies that run counter to my narrative, is unqualified and a fringe individual.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He was 81 yrs old and against the shut down of businesses.  I could show you just as many 80+ Vax’d who also died of Covid……Next


You asked for proof of at least one and you got it.  Stop whining like a loser bitch.


----------



## Brav520

Hit a nerve I see


----------



## Brav520

BREAKING: U.S. reports 484,377 new coronavirus cases, setting world record


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You asked for proof of at least one and you got it.  Stop whining like a loser bitch.


We were all born with a preexisting condition, we are humans.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> You asked for proof of at least one and you got it.  Stop whining like a loser bitch.


They didn’t ask you espola.  Are you admitting to another persona?… bitch.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> They didn’t ask you espola.  Are you admitting to another persona?… bitch.


Sorry, was ‘bitch’ someone’s pronoun or are you just playing the sexist, bigoted, boomer card?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> They didn’t ask you espola.  Are you admitting to another persona?… bitch.


Boomer up!

I took the challenge and succeeded.  One whiner was exposed.  Or is it two?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> So where do the ‘Branch Covidians’ fit in relative to governmental vs personal rights?


I have no idea what that means.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> We were all born with a preexisting condition, we are humans.


Yeah.  I have a  pretty good idea of what is going to get me.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Sorry, was ‘bitch’ someone’s pronoun or are you just playing the sexist, bigoted, boomer card?


Sometimes he forgets which Troll is "active" when he is typing. Too many Trolls to keep track of for his limited number of brain cells.


----------



## Grace T.

All true....a worse week for Team Panic I have hard time remembering....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476361644804489222


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Sometimes he forgets which Troll is "active" when he is typing. Too many Trolls to keep track of for his limited number of brain cells.


Even better than having a secret identity is having people mistakenly believe I have one.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You asked for proof of at least one and you got it.  Stop whining like a loser bitch.


Lol…I’ll give you one piss poor example while you and Husker give each other reach arounds to celebrate your “victory”.   81 year old…that’s your best?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Even better than having a secret identity is having people mistakenly believe I have one.


Sometimes you’re just too stupid to realize you took the bait and are looking for excuses to rationalize your way out.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> BREAKING: U.S. reports 484,377 new coronavirus cases, setting world record


Hmmmm…Nyc also hit a record…I seem to recall joe Biden promised he would “shut down the virus, not the country”. Must be the work of the evil Ron de santis.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Even better than having a secret identity is having people mistakenly believe I have one.


I'll refer back to my post a few days ago.

It's a Borg Collective of Trolls - or 1 guy. The practical difference is meaningless.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Boomer up!


Ok.. So you’re owning that.  Let me guess… Pfizer?

Boomer up!


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I have no idea what that means.


That is 50% of your posts that end in a ‘?’.

In this specific case maybe remembering, or googling something that sounds a lot like ‘Branch Covidians’.

Happy Rabbit hole!


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Even better than having a secret identity is having people mistakenly believe I have one.


I don’t think that is a compliment.

Though, if you believe it is, then… I’m sorry… troll is the nicest possible description that comes to mind.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Lol…I’ll give you one piss poor example while you and Husker give each other reach arounds to celebrate your “victory”.   81 year old…that’s your best?


You're still whining.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sometimes you’re just too stupid to realize you took the bait and are looking for excuses to rationalize your way out.


Way out of what?


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> That is 50% of your posts that end in a ‘?’.
> 
> In this specific case maybe remembering, or googling something that sounds a lot like ‘Branch Covidians’.
> 
> Happy Rabbit hole!


What's a covidian?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Lol…I’ll give you one piss poor example while you and Husker give each other reach arounds to celebrate your “victory”.   81 year old…that’s your best?


Unvaccinated people are more than ten times as likely to die from covid-19.   This is not really a celebration kind of question.  It doesn’t really matter who is right in internet troll pissing contests.

But stop making false claims about pro-vax and anti-vax having similar outcomes.  It’s not true, and that kind of bull shit is killing people.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> What's a covidian?


Sniff… sniff… 



N00B said:


> So where do the ‘Branch Covidians’ fit in relative to governmental vs personal rights?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> All true....a worse week for Team Panic I have hard time remembering....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476361644804489222


What is amazing is how the narrative changed literally over the past 2 to maybe 3 weeks


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated people are more than ten times as likely to die from covid-19.   This is not really a celebration kind of question.  It doesn’t really matter who is right in internet troll pissing contests.
> 
> But stop making false claims about pro-vax and anti-vax having similar outcomes.  It’s not true, and that kind of bull shit is killing people.


I will make this claim.

This virus wasn't going anywhere. We have billions not vaxxed which is where Delta and omicron came from.

At this point it is endemic. Getat vaxxed if you want. 

Meeting people outside will not change the trajectory of the virus.

The omicron spreads well through the entire population...vaxxed or not.

That fact is disturbing to many. But reality has a way of disrupting beliefs.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated people are more than ten times as likely to die from covid-19.   This is not really a celebration kind of question.  It doesn’t really matter who is right in internet troll pissing contests.
> 
> But stop making false claims about pro-vax and anti-vax having similar outcomes.  It’s not true, and that kind of bull shit is killing people.


Isn’t that their choice?  Their decision to make?

You claim this “holier than thou” position that your endangering others by not being vaccinated. THAT HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY DISPROVEN. Read that slowly and let it sink in.

So I ask again, for those that choose not to vaccinate, how does their decision affect you or anyone else for that matter?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You're still whining.


Careful, he wasn’t much older than you and at that age, you can die from a broken hip or the common cold!

Vaulting this as your “big win” is like putting your u11 AYSO trophy on your resume as an “accomplishment”


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Unvaccinated people are more than ten times as likely to die from covid-19.   This is not really a celebration kind of question.  It doesn’t really matter who is right in internet troll pissing contests.
> 
> But stop making false claims about pro-vax and anti-vax having similar outcomes.  It’s not true, and that kind of bull shit is killing people.


 You know not all unvaccinated people are ten times more likely to die from covid than a vaxxed. It depends on both the characteristics of the vaxxed person and the unvaxxed person ranging from age, weight, blood type, race, comorbidities and other factors.  You know that an unvaxxed child has less of a chance of dying than a vaxxed 50 year old.  You know also whether you’ve had it before is a key variable as well.

these distinctions matter and then you go around complaining about false claims. If you are in your 60s and above get vaxxed and boosted. If you are in your 40s and 50s and especially if you haven’t had it, get vaxxed. If you are in your 30s it gets tricky if you haven’t had it and people should talk to their doctors. If you are under 30 and dont have comorbities at this point it’s real hard to see what the vax are accomplishing.

you are complaining about false info and then coloring your own info falsely to push a narrative.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Advice from 1918 --
> 
> View attachment 12498


Catching up reading backwards.  For my take on this thread, this is most interesting thing.  Lots of angles here.  And the little kids were even dying in this one.  

BTW, you mentioned reading a holiday book with James Watson.  Curious what the author's take on the guy was.

Also, since it's sort of thing I'm guessing you might know, what's up with that aquatics center off senior center drive heading into socal soccer complex?  I've driven by it and plunked down $12 more than I care to count and never seen anybody in the water.  And it looks top notch.  Always think, should drop off the kid, do a 2K.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Careful, he wasn’t much older than you and at that age, you can die from a broken hip or the common cold!
> 
> Vaulting this as your “big win” is like putting your u11 AYSO trophy on your resume as an “accomplishment”


You're still whining.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Catching up reading backwards.  For my take on this thread, this is most interesting thing.  Lots of angles here.  And the little kids were even dying in this one.
> 
> BTW, you mentioned reading a holiday book with James Watson.  Curious what the author's take on the guy was.
> 
> Also, since it's sort of thing I'm guessing you might know, what's up with that aquatics center off senior center drive heading into socal soccer complex?  I've driven by it and plunked down $12 more than I care to count and never seen anybody in the water.  And it looks top notch.  Always think, should drop off the kid, do a 2K.


He thinks Watson didn't give adequate credit to Ms Franklin.

It's closed on weekends and holidays.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> He thinks Watson didn't give adequate credit to Ms Franklin.
> 
> It's closed on weekends and holidays.


BTW, anyone who is interested in how Oceanside City government works, and who has spent any time at the soccer fields, may find this interesting reading --



			https://www.ci.oceanside.ca.us/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?blobid=50897


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You're still whining.


It’s what they do. After a week with the Texas in laws . . . I can’t believe how whiny and picky they are. Talk about a sense of entitlement!


----------



## Ellejustus

Thank you for all you do Nurse Janet.  I'm telling you guys were losing some great nurses.  My wife's friend was told to obey or lose job.  She did not obey the boss and now is out of work too.  This is so real and so insane.  EVERYONE of us is being watched and EVERYTHING you do and say will hold you accountable to the truth.  Remember, no liars and cheaters allowed to play in next game of life.   









						UK NHS NURSE WITH 37 YEARS EXPERIENCE, REFUSING THE VACCINE SO HAS TO LEAVE HER JOB
					

⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE⚠️: https://odysee.com/$/invite/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0 ⚠️COMMENTS TEMPORARILY CLOSED ON BITCHUTE DUE TO SPAM ABUSE ⚠️  MIRRORED FROM: The Worldwide Psychological Operation: https://odysee.com/@FwapUK:1 htt…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> What's a covidian?


here you go sir 

_and "Covidians," who are brainwashed into thinking we have an eternal pandemic and we should hide in a bubble for the rest of our lives._


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> here you go sir
> 
> _and "Covidians," who are brainwashed into thinking we have an eternal pandemic and we should hide in a bubble for the rest of our lives._


If that is meant to be the definition, it does not match the recent usage in this thread.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> If that is meant to be the definition, it does not match the recent usage in this thread.


What's a lying ass no good dog cheater?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> You know not all unvaccinated people are ten times more likely to die from covid than a vaxxed. It depends on both the characteristics of the vaxxed person and the unvaxxed person ranging from age, weight, blood type, race, comorbidities and other factors.  You know that an unvaxxed child has less of a chance of dying than a vaxxed 50 year old.  You know also whether you’ve had it before is a key variable as well.
> 
> these distinctions matter and then you go around complaining about false claims. If you are in your 60s and above get vaxxed and boosted. If you are in your 40s and 50s and especially if you haven’t had it, get vaxxed. If you are in your 30s it gets tricky if you haven’t had it and people should talk to their doctors. If you are under 30 and dont have comorbities at this point it’s real hard to see what the vax are accomplishing.
> 
> you are complaining about false info and then coloring your own info falsely to push a narrative.


It isn't even tricky if you are in your 30s. 

That age group (30-39) constitutes just 1.8% of all deaths.

40-49? Just 4.3% of all deaths. 

0-29 yrs of age? Less than 1% of all deaths. (And yet we shut down schools, stopped sports, did all kinds of silly things in college settings, etc)

45-54? 6.7% of all deaths

55-64? 14.5% of all deaths. And in this age group those deaths are heavily skewed towards the 60+

If you are under 60 you CAN die from covid if you are healthy. Most of the deaths under 60 however occur in people with serious health issues. 

Even above 60 the typical person dying has a number of other health issues. 

What does it all mean?

Your typical person in our population has little to no risk of the virus. 

Further 75% or so of all deaths occur in the set up people 65 and older. *This group constitutes roughly 13% of our total population*. 

Think about those 2 numbers. 75% of all deaths occur in the age group that has 13% of our population. 

For the longest time about 40% or so of all deaths occurred in nursing homes. There are roughly 2 million people in that type of setting. 

When you look at all of the above numbers it never made sense to try to lockdown the public at large. Never made sense to have school closures. Never made sense to shutter a variety of types of business.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't even tricky if you are in your 30s.
> 
> That age group (30-39) constitutes just 1.8% of all deaths.
> 
> 40-49? Just 4.3% of all deaths.
> 
> 0-29 yrs of age? Less than 1% of all deaths. (And yet we shut down schools, stopped sports, did all kinds of silly things in college settings, etc)
> 
> 45-54? 6.7% of all deaths
> 
> 55-64? 14.5% of all deaths. And in this age group those deaths are heavily skewed towards the 60+
> 
> If you are under 60 you CAN die from covid if you are healthy. Most of the deaths under 60 however occur in people with serious health issues.
> 
> Even above 60 the typical person dying has a number of other health issues.
> 
> What does it all mean?
> 
> Your typical person in our population has little to no risk of the virus.
> 
> Further 75% or so of all deaths occur in the set up people 65 and older. *This group constitutes roughly 13% of our total population*.
> 
> Think about those 2 numbers. 75% of all deaths occur in the age group that has 13% of our population.
> 
> For the longest time about 40% or so of all deaths occurred in nursing homes. There are roughly 2 million people in that type of setting.
> 
> When you look at all of the above numbers it never made sense to try to lockdown the public at large. Never made sense to have school closures. Never made sense to shutter a variety of types of business.


Hound, you win, "Best Accurate News" covering Covid for 2021.  You have reported the truth and nothing else.  It's been a pleasure meeting you at the fields, mask or no mask.  Hound is the man and a great dad to his goat  Best to you and Yours for Happy New Years bro. 2022 will be amazing. I will keep you posted with the big decision in PM  I wont be around after today. Heading out to Joshua Tree to bring in the new year brother and will be with the stars and. Cold & HOT is the theme and I will be with my wife and a few like minded souls. This is the place to be with a small group of those who love you and who you love with no judgements. No big parties because Dr. Fauci says so and I want to start the year obeying my leaders. I will be back here after the new year celebrations. Love you Hound


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't even tricky if you are in your 30s.
> 
> That age group (30-39) constitutes just 1.8% of all deaths.
> 
> 40-49? Just 4.3% of all deaths.
> 
> 0-29 yrs of age? Less than 1% of all deaths. (And yet we shut down schools, stopped sports, did all kinds of silly things in college settings, etc)
> 
> 45-54? 6.7% of all deaths
> 
> 55-64? 14.5% of all deaths. And in this age group those deaths are heavily skewed towards the 60+
> 
> If you are under 60 you CAN die from covid if you are healthy. Most of the deaths under 60 however occur in people with serious health issues.
> 
> Even above 60 the typical person dying has a number of other health issues.
> 
> What does it all mean?
> 
> Your typical person in our population has little to no risk of the virus.
> 
> Further 75% or so of all deaths occur in the set up people 65 and older. *This group constitutes roughly 13% of our total population*.
> 
> Think about those 2 numbers. 75% of all deaths occur in the age group that has 13% of our population.
> 
> For the longest time about 40% or so of all deaths occurred in nursing homes. There are roughly 2 million people in that type of setting.
> 
> When you look at all of the above numbers it never made sense to try to lockdown the public at large. Never made sense to have school closures. Never made sense to shutter a variety of types of business.


How many times ha ve you posted this same thought?


----------



## Grace T.

Looks like Washington DC may go full remote schools (dc mayor floated it this morning).  A handful of school districts in Massachusetts and new york are cancelling sports.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> How many times ha ve you posted this same thought?


The "Best Liar" award for 2021 goes to you Espola.  I saw you go full EOTL yesterday.  You got busted again.  "GG" is how you come at me?  That's weak and not the Sage I was looking for when I came here looking for help to answer all my questions back in 2018.  You could have been a father figure to me and a Grandpa to the younger dads on here, like Luis, but no!!!!  Espola picks his own ways and his parties allegiances instead of helping the dads out with soccer problems from lying Docs and pay to play rich dads, who got their hands on the Golden Goose of girls soccer.  Lot's of people making money on all the girls hard work.  Congratulations on the award Espola.  It goes with your soul.  Happy New Day Year.  2022 will be the year for the liberation of all woman!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Looks like Washington DC may go full remote schools (dc mayor floated it this morning).  A handful of school districts in Massachusetts and new york are cancelling sports.


Grace T, you win the "Best Debater" award for 2021.  You kicked ass this year and never went left or right.  Keep things in the middle and was fair and balanced with information.  You bring it to the Light Grace T and the Cockroaches come out to attack you in the Light because their is NO MORE DARKNESS to hide in.  These guys are sure looking like the lairs & cheaters they have always been.  I have a dear friend who will go down with Joe ship because of his ego and pride.  He thought all the Epstein stuff with pedowood and all that crap was all false as well as Hunters Laptop from hell.  He told me yesterday that t is Satan and Joe is from God.  I swear.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> How many times ha ve you posted this same thought?


Seems to be a thought that escapes you. 

Based on how you post and respond you act as if risk is spread equally throughout the population. Which is why you never had an issue with school closures. 

A lot of things escape you. Or you simply troll.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Seems to be a thought that escapes you.
> 
> Based on how you post and respond you act as if risk is spread equally throughout the population. Which is why you never had an issue with school closures.
> 
> A lot of things escape you. Or you simply troll.


A lot of things have escaped your analysis.  Was that on purpose?


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> A lot of things have escaped your analysis.  Was that on purpose?


Espola get's his second award; "Best Cheater" award for 2021.  Congratulations old man, you earned this one and have worked at your craft and you deserve both the Liar and Cheaters award.


----------



## Brav520




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> A lot of things have escaped your analysis.  Was that on purpose?


What other things?

Let's recap:  Vaccines kinda work, the elderly and high risk should get vaccinated, early treatment good, sent home to get sick then back to hospital to die bad, masks are so so, cloth masks bad, anti virals scary, fear campaign to drive agendas, vaccines being used still EUA, big pharma getting phat.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> How many times ha ve you posted this same thought?


Rich coming from the queen of repetitive posts.


----------



## dawson

Yesterday at 7:58 AM
Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?

And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .”

I posted the above yesterday. The replies said HS sports in Calif would not be shut down .

Grace T posted this an hour or so ago :
“Looks like Washington DC may go full remote schools (dc mayor floated it this morning). A handful of school districts in Massachusetts and new york are cancelling sports.”

Considering that Blue states tend to follow each other and the Calif Gov loves to lead the pack , does Graces post change any opinions on Calif HS sports ?


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> View attachment 12541


Hey bro, you get the "Top Rookie Poster" award for 2021.  Welcome again the the fabulous forum : )


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Isn’t that their choice?  Their decision to make?
> 
> You claim this “holier than thou” position that your endangering others by not being vaccinated. THAT HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY DISPROVEN. Read that slowly and let it sink in.
> 
> So I ask again, for those that choose not to vaccinate, how does their decision affect you or anyone else for that matter?


Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.

Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.  

But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.
> 
> Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.
> 
> But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


That's not the relevant question.  The relevant question is how much more transmissible the unvaxxed end up being vis-a-vis the vaccinated against a highly infectious strain with a very high R0 (aren't you the one that always trotted out the goal is to get the R0 below one).  Subquestions include peak viral load (you said the same), duration (for omicron low for both), average viral load, effectiveness of the vaccines in stopping transmission (for omicron low and declining even with boosters), effectiveness of the vaccines in stopping illness (again low and declining even with boosters).  If vaccination reduces the R0 for omicron from R10 to R8 (or R6) that's still not going to help, undermining the entire rationale for vaccination at least as a means for stopping transmission (as opposed to prevention of serious illness, which is only applicable for a certain [large] part of the population, particularly with the omicron which early data indicates is less severe for both vaxxed and unvaxxed).

It's the total final numbers you end up with (severity and transmissibility) that matter, not the decline, because a percent of a large number is still a large number.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.
> 
> Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.
> 
> But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


Unhealthy UnVax ((UUV)) is contagious from what my Doc says.  A Healthy UnVax ((HUV)) person is no threat to himself or to others.  In fact, I have a big appointment with my Doc and we are going to take a good luck at my body from the inside.  I will report back next year with his findings.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.
> 
> Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.
> 
> But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


Actually, your understanding of science is still in error. Your use of a singular approach in aggregate is weak and incomplete. Science deals in, and accounts for, variables such as age, health etc. Science does not support your opinion, emotions do.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Seems to be a thought that escapes you.
> 
> Based on how you post and respond you act as if risk is spread equally throughout the population. Which is why you never had an issue with school closures.
> 
> A lot of things escape you. Or you simply troll.


Mostly, we just disagree with you about whether "4.3% of all deaths" is the same thing as "ZERO!!!".


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Seems to be a thought that escapes you.
> 
> Based on how you post and respond you act as if risk is spread equally throughout the population. Which is why you never had an issue with school closures.
> 
> A lot of things escape you. Or you simply troll.


Mostly, we just disagree with you about whether "4.3% of all deaths" is the same thing as "ZERO!!!".


----------



## Grace T.

fluvoxamine is going mainstream in the the US (already gone in the UK)....yet another thing public health neglected/got wrong.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476384093977792512


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> Actually, your understanding of science is still in error. Your use of a singular approach in aggregate is weak and incomplete. Science deals in, and accounts for, variables such as age, health etc. Science does not support your opinion, *emotions do.*


Boooooom!!!!  Mic PaPa, you get "Top Science Rebuttal" award for 2021.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dawson said:


> Yesterday at 7:58 AM
> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .”
> 
> I posted the above yesterday. The replies said HS sports in Calif would not be shut down .
> 
> Grace T posted this an hour or so ago :
> “Looks like Washington DC may go full remote schools (dc mayor floated it this morning). A handful of school districts in Massachusetts and new york are cancelling sports.”
> 
> Considering that Blue states tend to follow each other and the Calif Gov loves to lead the pack , does Graces post change any opinions on Calif HS sports ?


This is not a good sign. I'm sure the leaders of Team Fear here in CA are experiencing some serious FOMO. CA has led the way in restrictions relative to infections. I'm not convinced we'll see a statewide mandate but if there is one, CA would be at the top of that list. If infections rise, expect the usual suspects of counties to do what they have been doing when infections rise - including canceling outdoor sports such as soccer that even @dad4 thinks are relatively safe.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.
> 
> Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.
> 
> But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


Answer the question……


----------



## Grace T.

Virginia schools post-election are returning  back, but Arlington teacher's union (across the river from DC) is making demands.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476571058815782920


----------



## Grace T.

11 New Jersey school districts going remote....elections have consequences people


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476601688731619334


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Mostly, we just disagree with you about whether "4.3% of all deaths" is the same thing as "ZERO!!!".


It was never going to be ZERO!!!!

The numbers however clearly show that the vast majority of the population have very little to worry about. And that is another problem you seem to always have.

And that is understanding RISK. And based on risk making appropriate decisions. 

The media, politicians and people like you talk about covid as a threat to everyone. Implying that the risk is spread equally. And going with that assumption make policies that affect everyone, and some groups more than others (remote learning for kids). 

And yet the data tells us where the risk lies. 

And the overwhelming majority of our population has little to no risk if they are healthy. If you have serious health issues and are younger than 60, your risk profile goes up. And these are the people that have by and large passed away in this age group. 

The reality is a rather small percentage of our population make up the overwhelming number of deaths.

As stated you have been terrible at assessing risk. And terrible at understanding or using any type of cost/benefit analysis. As GraceT points out, this is why we don't let people like you make big decisions. You can add up 2+2, but are not good at applying that to real world data/risk/cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## Desert Hound

Now most people look at headlines. The don't read much. Or at the least question what they are reading or watching. 

By that I mean looking at the actual data. 

Take the big O. Headlines have been screaming about it.

Yet so far the variant has turned out to be very mild. Typical symptoms are rather cold like. 

But daily you see headlines like these from Drudge today.


----------



## Grace T.

CDC is beclowning itself in trying to clarify the new isolation guidelines.....it seems like they are heading to a "without fever" standard.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476408449399332873


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Mostly, we just disagree with you about whether "4.3% of all deaths" is the same thing as "ZERO!!!".


Actually that's not the relevant measure.  It should be compared to percent of age group population not percent of deaths.  In that case its virtually zero for most age groups.  Certainly 19 and under.


----------



## Grace T.

CDC just dropped a hammer on the cruise industry. Is advising because of omicron for everyone regardless of vaccination status to avoid cruising right now

a. It’s another implicit acknowledgement that the vaccines don’t stop transmission/infection
b. Cruising is impossible so long as we care about cases.  You can wind up catching it even on a shore excursion and wind up having to spend your cruise quarantined


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Hmmmm…Nyc also hit a record…I seem to recall joe Biden promised he would “shut down the virus, not the country”. Must be the work of the evil Ron de santis.


Biden said Peace Out to Covid earlier in the week, and left for vacation ....Major BDE from him


----------



## met61

...this you @dad4 ?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Answer the question……


No point.  We don't agree on basic questions of fact.  

You can explore your counterfactual world where vaccines have no effect on transmission.  I find it a waste of time.  That's not the world we live in.

Grace raised a reasonable phrasing by asking about R=10 versus R=6.  I'm not sure about the numbers, but that's the right style of question.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...this you @dad4 ?
> 
> View attachment 12543


Nope.  My dog wears an N95 whenever he leaves the house.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Nope.  My dog wears an N95 whenever he leaves the house.


haha , nice !


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> No point.  We don't agree on basic questions of fact.
> 
> You can explore your counterfactual world where vaccines have no effect on transmission.  I find it a waste of time.  That's not the world we live in.
> 
> Grace raised a reasonable phrasing by asking about R=10 versus R=6.  I'm not sure about the numbers, but that's the right style of question.


Its effect on transmission is probably not zero but at best its very poor since infections are raging through the vaccinated.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> No point.  We don't agree on basic questions of fact.
> 
> You can explore your counterfactual world where vaccines have no effect on transmission.  I find it a waste of time.  That's not the world we live in.
> 
> Grace raised a reasonable phrasing by asking about R=10 versus R=6.  I'm not sure about the numbers, but that's the right style of question.


When and where did I ever mention an impact on transmission?  SCIENCE has show both the Vaxx’d and Unvaxx’d can get and transmit the virus.  To what extent, I never argued so your refusal to answer a simple question solely based on what you say we disagree on (but in FACT we do not) comes across as basic avoidance.

In reality, someone’s Vax status has NO impact on someone who is Vax’d.  ESPECIALLY if that Unvaxx’d person has already had Covid.  Can you prove me wrong?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

I see the same religious clowns practicing their Fauciism.


----------



## Ellejustus

Bruddah IZ said:


> I see the same religious clowns practicing their Fauciism.


Merry Christmas Bruddah IZ and Happy News Years bro.  I will be out tomorrow and will be back to debate more later next year.  I messed you man.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Its effect on transmission is probably not zero but at best its very poor since infections are raging through the vaccinated.


Certainly nowhere near R=1.

But there is a big difference between R=2 and R=6.  2 leads to a long slow wave of cases, fizzling out at 50%.  6 leads to a sudden crunch that overwhelms your hospital system and catches almost everyone.

I don't have an opinion on which is the better description.  You could look to very high vax areas to get a guess.  

Kind of moot.  Even if the fully vaccinated transmission rate were known, we don't have a fully vaccinated population.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> When and where did I ever mention an impact on transmission?  SCIENCE has show both the Vaxx’d and Unvaxx’d can get and transmit the virus.  To what extent, I never argued so your refusal to answer a simple question solely based on what you say we disagree on (but in FACT we do not) comes across as basic avoidance.
> 
> In reality, someone’s Vax status has NO impact on someone who is Vax’d.  ESPECIALLY if that Unvaxx’d person has already had Covid.  Can you prove me wrong?


If my vaccine changes my probability of transmission, then my vax status is already having an impact on other people.  It is lowering the probability that I give them covid.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Certainly nowhere near R=1.
> 
> But there is a big difference between R=2 and R=6.  2 leads to a long slow wave of cases, fizzling out at 50%.  6 leads to a sudden crunch that overwhelms your hospital system and catches almost everyone.
> 
> I don't have an opinion on which is the better description.  You could look to very high vax areas to get a guess.
> 
> Kind of moot.  Even if the fully vaccinated transmission rate were known, we don't have a fully vaccinated population.


The US hospital system hasn't collapsed in prior waves...it hasn't in most western countries.  The biggest obstacle as the CDC recognized is that we are requiring the quarantine of positive people and they seem to be struggling to define what that end date should be (asymptomatic/no fever/symptomatic but 5 days)...it's going to be staffing as people call in sick, and the demand by idiots testing positive and then rushing off to the ER (because doctors don't want to see symptomatic people).  It's a policy problem.

The long slow wave has trade offs.  1) the costs (you'll have to do something more than masks because if omicron really is R10 and the vaccine failure rate for infection really is 80%, vaccines+ poor use of masks is not going to get, 2) dragging out the time period those costs are imposed (e.g. children have already had a year of school taken away...gonna take away another 2-3 months?), 3) possibly creating later waves by leaving some dry tinder susceptible and 4) having a longer disruption not just of health care but all businesses and production because instead of everyone getting it and things collapsing for 2-3 weeks, they collapse over 3 months.  Given the lower severity of the omicron, the cost isn't warranted....time to let her rip....those people like you that insist on continued interventions are just selfishly extending the emergency.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The US hospital system hasn't collapsed in prior waves...it hasn't in most western countries.  The biggest obstacle as the CDC recognized is that we are requiring the quarantine of positive people and they seem to be struggling to define what that end date should be (asymptomatic/no fever/symptomatic but 5 days)...it's going to be staffing as people call in sick, and the demand by idiots testing positive and then rushing off to the ER (because doctors don't want to see symptomatic people).  It's a policy problem.
> 
> The long slow wave has trade offs.  1) the costs (you'll have to do something more than masks because if omicron really is R10 and the vaccine failure rate for infection really is 80%, vaccines+ poor use of masks is not going to get, 2) dragging out the time period those costs are imposed (e.g. children have already had a year of school taken away...gonna take away another 2-3 months?), 3) possibly creating later waves by leaving some dry tinder susceptible and 4) having a longer disruption not just of health care but all businesses and production because instead of everyone getting it and things collapsing for 2-3 weeks, they collapse over 3 months.  Given the lower severity of the omicron, the cost isn't warranted....time to let her rip....those people like you that insist on continued interventions are just selfishly extending the emergency.


Reads like you are panicking.


----------



## Grace T.

FDA is going to approve booster 12-15. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476600123778031624


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Reads like you are panicking.


You are confusing me and dad4


----------



## Desert Hound

AS PREDICTED, OMICRON IS ALMOST LIKE A NATURALLY OCCURRING VACCINE: Study shows people infected with Omicron may be less susceptible to Delta variant. Only with much longer-lasting immunity, most likely


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Your understanding of the science on vaccinated transmission is in error.  And you are still in error, even if you put it in all caps.
> 
> Reread whichever article you believe shows vax transmission is equal to unvax.  Most likely, it tells you that peak viral load is the same, which it is.
> 
> But the duration is different, and the probability of infection is different.  The total effect is not the same at all.  Unvax end up being more transmissive.


Here is what I will tell you, don't worship at the alter of evolving science.  What was known 6-8 months ago is no longer true.  What we knew last week isn't neccessarily still the case.  I don't have to remind you how positive sciency people were about  the slam dunk effectiveness of  vaccines and how they were going to end transmission and provide immunity.  Obviousy that idea has eroded/changed over time. 

We have a better picture of what our vaccines provide now.  An infected vaccinated person can transmit disease just as effectively as an unvaccinated person.  yes, it's true we "think" viral loads diminish faster in vaccinated people, win for the vaccine, maybe.  We also think that it's possible the viability of the virus that is cultivated from an infected vaccinated person is very low...Which is also good news if in fact it's true.  Plenty of if and maybe, and might, and should going on right now.  What we do know for maybe sure is that Omicron is pretty sneaky but less severe.  New data coming out daily, some of it contradictory.  Mabye the pharma companies need to synch their messaging a bit better.  And cross your fingers for a real FDA approved vaccine, maybe, in the near future.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The US hospital system hasn't collapsed in prior waves...it hasn't in most western countries.  The biggest obstacle as the CDC recognized is that we are requiring the quarantine of positive people and they seem to be struggling to define what that end date should be (asymptomatic/no fever/symptomatic but 5 days)...it's going to be staffing as people call in sick, and the demand by idiots testing positive and then rushing off to the ER (because doctors don't want to see symptomatic people).  It's a policy problem.
> 
> The long slow wave has trade offs.  1) the costs (you'll have to do something more than masks because if omicron really is R10 and the vaccine failure rate for infection really is 80%, vaccines+ poor use of masks is not going to get, 2) dragging out the time period those costs are imposed (e.g. children have already had a year of school taken away...gonna take away another 2-3 months?), 3) possibly creating later waves by leaving some dry tinder susceptible and 4) having a longer disruption not just of health care but all businesses and production because instead of everyone getting it and things collapsing for 2-3 weeks, they collapse over 3 months.  Given the lower severity of the omicron, the cost isn't warranted....time to let her rip....those people like you that insist on continued interventions are just selfishly extending the emergency.


In omicron Europe, there isn't an increased danger of hospital collapse.  Most people counted as hospitalized are with omicron instead of because omicron.  the number has to rise as the incidence rises in the population

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476580018390134787








						»Det er misvisende. Det er jo ikke de tal, vi skal have ud i medierne«: Der er markant færre coronaindlagte, end SSI's tal viser
					

Forskellen mellem SSI’s indlæggelsestal og hospitalernes tal vokser. SSI kritiseres for at inkludere folk med brækkede arme, psykiatriske patienter og indlagte på fødeafsnit.




					politiken.dk


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Certainly nowhere near R=1.
> 
> But there is a big difference between R=2 and R=6.  2 leads to a long slow wave of cases, fizzling out at 50%.  *6 leads to a sudden crunch that overwhelms your hospital system and catches almost everyone.*
> 
> I don't have an opinion on which is the better description.  You could look to very high vax areas to get a guess.
> 
> Kind of moot.  Even if the fully vaccinated transmission rate were known, we don't have a fully vaccinated population.


The hospital narrative has always been overplayed.   Think back to the early days of no vaccines, ventilators, NYC, old people, ships and field hospitals and conference centers with  open beds. Are there issues with staffing right now..yep.  Nurses are in fact leaving, in large numbers.  Many reasons: mandates, better paying jobs, etc.  And by the way, they've always skirted the 14 day quarantine rule.  No symptoms, back to work.  Has been this way since the beginning.  Has it been stressfull, yep, many different reasons why.  But the idea that we were ever on the verge of a national collapse is silly.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The US hospital system hasn't collapsed in prior waves...it hasn't in most western countries.  The biggest obstacle as the CDC recognized is that we are requiring the quarantine of positive people and they seem to be struggling to define what that end date should be (asymptomatic/no fever/symptomatic but 5 days)...it's going to be staffing as people call in sick, and the demand by idiots testing positive and then rushing off to the ER (because doctors don't want to see symptomatic people).  It's a policy problem.
> 
> The long slow wave has trade offs.  1) the costs (you'll have to do something more than masks because if omicron really is R10 and the vaccine failure rate for infection really is 80%, vaccines+ poor use of masks is not going to get, 2) dragging out the time period those costs are imposed (e.g. children have already had a year of school taken away...gonna take away another 2-3 months?), 3) possibly creating later waves by leaving some dry tinder susceptible and 4) having a longer disruption not just of health care but all businesses and production because instead of everyone getting it and things collapsing for 2-3 weeks, they collapse over 3 months.  Given the lower severity of the omicron, the cost isn't warranted....time to let her rip....those people like you that insist on continued interventions are just selfishly extending the emergency.


The hospital collapse theory is a joke and has been for over a year.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Certainly nowhere near R=1.
> 
> But there is a big difference between R=2 and R=6.  2 leads to a long slow wave of cases, fizzling out at 50%.  6 leads to a sudden crunch that overwhelms your hospital system and catches almost everyone.
> 
> I don't have an opinion on which is the better description.  You could look to very high vax areas to get a guess.
> 
> Kind of moot.  Even if the fully vaccinated transmission rate were known, we don't have a fully vaccinated population.


Whats moot are speculative R values.  Covid is highly contagious among the vaccinated.  To use my NHL example...100% vaccinated yet just at one point a week or so ago 1 in 5 players had covid.  They continue to add dozens of players everday.  Its not inconceivable that more than half will get Covid.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> If my vaccine changes my probability of transmission, then my vax status is already having an impact on other people.  It is lowering the probability that I give them covid.


Again, the question was how an unvax’d affects the vax’d.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> Whats moot are speculative R values.  Covid is highly contagious among the vaccinated.  To use my NHL example...100% vaccinated yet just at one point a week or so ago 1 in 5 players had covid.  They continue to add dozens of players everday.  Its not inconceivable that more than half will get Covid.


But…but….


----------



## Ellejustus

Thank you Governor Newsome.  This is great news for all kids.  We can;t kick out 34,000 kids just because they dont want to take a jab.  Thank thank you sir.  Newsome for President?  “We need to fine-tune all this, this is iterative. … We want to keep the kids in school. … We don’t want to see 34,000 kids sent home, quite the contrary. And that’s why I’d say you have to accommodate. And I have all the confidence in the world the school board will work to accommodate.”

And today, the interim LAUSD superintendent proposed that enforcement of the mandate be delayed from January to the start of the next school year in fall 2022.

The* governor also stressed that his first-in-the-nation* student COVID-19 vaccine mandate — which isn’t set to go into effect until next year at the earliest and is *more lenient than some district mandates — “includes personal exemptions, not just religious and/or medical exemptions, so there’s plenty of latitude for families to make decisions.”*


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> Thank you Governor Newsome.  This is great news for all kids.  We can;t kick out 34,000 kids just because they dont want to take a jab.  Thank thank you sir.  Newsome for President?  “We need to fine-tune all this, this is iterative. … We want to keep the kids in school. … We don’t want to see 34,000 kids sent home, quite the contrary. And that’s why I’d say you have to accommodate. And I have all the confidence in the world the school board will work to accommodate.”
> 
> And today, the interim LAUSD superintendent proposed that enforcement of the mandate be delayed from January to the start of the next school year in fall 2022.
> 
> The* governor also stressed that his first-in-the-nation* student COVID-19 vaccine mandate — which isn’t set to go into effect until next year at the earliest and is *more lenient than some district mandates — “includes personal exemptions, not just religious and/or medical exemptions, so there’s plenty of latitude for families to make decisions.”*


Patrick Bateman !


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> Patrick Bateman !


t said he really like Gavin and I like this move for kids sakes.  I feel this is way better then my dd being told she can;t finish what she started regarding HSS and stay home.  Dad and moms get fired but kids can stay in school.  Yay!!!


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Again, the question was how an unvax’d affects the vax’d.


In Colin Powell's case, it killed him.

Without all the unvaccinated people keeping transmission high, the US would not have had a Delta surge.  That Delta surge is what killed Powell.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> In Colin Powell's case, it killed him.
> 
> Without all the unvaccinated people keeping transmission high, the US would not have had a Delta surge.  That Delta surge is what killed Powell.


I can’t argue with how you feel.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> In Colin Powell's case, it killed him.


Either that or being 84 may have done the trick. Or maybe it was due to the fact he was in the hospital for multiple myeloma which is a type of cancer. He also had parkinsons. 

But yeah it was probably covid.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Either that or being 84 may have done the trick. Or maybe it was due to the fact he was in the hospital for multiple myeloma which is a type of cancer. He also had parkinsons.
> 
> But yeah it was probably covid.


My dad had Parkinson's and the flu when he died.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> In Colin Powell's case, it killed him.
> 
> Without all the unvaccinated people keeping transmission high, the US would not have had a Delta surge.  That Delta surge is what killed Powell.


zero covid was never an option.  That's the part you don't want to come to terms with.  Colin Powell, and others, are high risk.  Something was going to eventually cause his death.  Is your rationale that 100% vaccination and eradication would have averted a mutation?

 Covid in this instant was a contributor, in other years another respiratory virus would have been the culprit.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Without all the unvaccinated people keeping transmission high, the US would not have had a Delta surge.


Interesting. 

So why was it present in highly vaxxed countries and areas of countries with high vax rates? 

Also as we saw during delta the vax didn't stop the spread amongst the vaxxed themselves. It didn't work too well. Which is why they started saying boosters. 

The reason the delta wave came is because their was a new variant that spread ALL around the world. It didn't care who was vaxxed or not. 

Powell was in the hospital due to his cancer. The docs and staff were vaxxed. I believe visitors had to be vaxxed and/or masked. And despite that he died with the virus. He was on the way out either way.


----------



## Desert Hound

I think this is where a lot of people got wrong info. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475193955704881152


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So why was it present in highly vaxxed countries and areas of countries with high vax rates?
> 
> Also as we saw during delta the vax didn't stop the spread amongst the vaxxed themselves. It didn't work too well. Which is why they started saying boosters.
> 
> The reason the delta wave came is because their was a new variant that spread ALL around the world. It didn't care who was vaxxed or not.
> 
> Powell was in the hospital due to his cancer. The docs and staff were vaxxed. I believe visitors had to be vaxxed and/or masked. And despite that he died with the virus. He was on the way out either way.


Ireland, Singapore, and South Korea all had Delta outbreaks despite high vaccination rates and masks.  Vaccination might have limited the waves but they all got them.  Vermont and Iceland despite high vaccination rate.

And against the omicron none of it helping, not vaxx passports, not mandates, not high vaccination, not masks....Los Angeles, New York, Seattle, Denmark, Germany and even San Francisco.  The only countries in western Europe that seem to be performing relatively well against their neighbors are Norway (provided their current wave holds in decline), Sweden, and Austria (which doesn't appear to have much omicron due to its travel ban and lockdown with the unvaccinated still in lockdown for another month at least).  And those US locations are only 1/3 omicron....rest is Delta still being pushed out.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> I think this is where a lot of people got wrong info.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475193955704881152


Science wrapped in hope and agendas.  Hubris is funny like that.  She likely had dinner with network physicians and scientists the night before.  This was her take away.


----------



## Grace T.

Coronavirus health and safety protocols start to impact high school sports
					

Games are canceled in basketball with uncertainty in the weeks ahead as league play is scheduled to begin.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> zero covid was never an option.  That's the part you don't want to come to terms with.  Colin Powell, and others, are high risk.  Something was going to eventually cause his death.  Is your rationale that 100% vaccination and eradication would have averted a mutation?
> 
> Covid in this instant was a contributor, in other years another respiratory virus would have been the culprit.


My position is that masks and 16+ vaccination were enough to achieve R<1, for Delta.

Zero?  No.  Just low level endemic.  But low level endemic is far better than 200K additional deaths.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> My position is that masks and 16+ vaccination were enough to achieve R<1, for Delta.
> 
> Zero?  No.  Just low level endemic.  But low level endemic is far better than 200K additional deaths.


In what time interval would 200k less additional deaths be achieved?  ‘Cause it sounds like an arbitrary number given your data inputs…


----------



## Grace T.

Ontario schools pushed back









						Ontario pushes back start of school to Jan. 5, introduces more capacity limits amid COVID-19 surge  | Globalnews.ca
					

The Ontario government says students and staff will return to school for in-person learning on Jan. 5, 2022, and is introducing further capacity limits to large indoor venues.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> In what time interval would 200k less additional deaths be achieved?  ‘Cause it sounds like an arbitrary number given your data inputs…


It is roughly the number of fatal covid cases during the Delta wave.

Almost all were preventable.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> It is roughly the number of fatal covid cases during the Delta wave.
> 
> Almost all were preventable.


Give me an annual Flu death rate for 2016 they 2018…


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Give me an annual Flu death rate for 2016 they 2018…


Flu is 10 to 50k per 12 months, depending on the year.

Covid has been a bit more than ten times that.  About 400k per year.  Enough to worry about, in my book.

I think it will fall after Omicron, but what do I know?  Maybe Crush is right and it's just the Kool Aid talking.


----------



## NorCalDad

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-12-30/real-world-data-confirms-pfizer-vaccine-safe-for-kids-ages-5-11


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It is roughly the number of fatal covid cases during the Delta wave.
> 
> Almost all were preventable.


All highway deaths are preventable - don't drive. Almost all drownings are preventable - don't swim. All COVID deaths are LESS "preventable" than the flu and we have many flu deaths each year. Your mind is in Fantasy Land.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Flu is 10 to 50k per 12 months, depending on the year.
> 
> Covid has been a bit more than ten times that.  About 400k per year.  Enough to worry about, in my book.
> 
> I think it will fall after Omicron, but what do I know?  Maybe Crush is right and it's just the Kool Aid talking.


Let’s agree to keep the comparison to Omicron as we need to live in the present as the past is beyond our control.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NorCalDad said:


> https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-12-30/real-world-data-confirms-pfizer-vaccine-safe-for-kids-ages-5-11


Have you looked into the advertising dollars Pfizer spends with USNEWS?


----------



## met61

Ah I see, @dad4 watches Madcow... connecting dots explains alot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475193955704881152


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Let’s agree to keep the comparison to Omicron as we need to live in the present as the past is beyond our control.


You don't get to ignore the past just because it is inconvenient to think about.

The lockdown proponents earned a reputation by closing schools and parks.  They don't get to say "all over now.  Forget about it.".  

The anti-vax agitators earned their reputation, too.  By preventing herd immunity last summer, the anti-vax folks are responsible for about 200,000 deaths from Delta.  

In both cases, it's fair to bring up the past.  It matters, and we need to learn from it.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You don't get to ignore the past just because it is inconvenient to think about.
> 
> The lockdown proponents earned a reputation by closing schools and parks.  They don't get to say "all over now.  Forget about it.".
> 
> The anti-vax agitators earned their reputation, too.  By preventing herd immunity last summer, the anti-vax folks are responsible for about 200,000 deaths from Delta.
> 
> In both cases, it's fair to bring up the past.  It matters, and we need to learn from it.


The lockdown proponents of which you were one and still are somewhat were completely off base. Disrupted the lives of millions of kids just for starters. 

You and what you advocated decimated business, harmed the fortunes of families who couldnt work, have caused inflation that hurts the poor and middle class, etc. 

If someone choses not to get vaxxed and dies, that choice is theirs. 

Rather big difference.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The anti-vax agitators earned their reputation, too.  By preventing herd immunity last summer, the anti-vax folks are responsible for about 200,000 deaths from Delta.


I object here. You have no evidence that vaccination+ masks would have avoided a delta spike.  Your Asian countries that you cite, except for China but including South Korea, all had a delta spike but lower deaths for a reason we still don’t understand (despite some countries not having a high vaxx rate). European countries with high vaxx plus mask same thing (you just turn it around and say the vaxx rate is not high enough)!  Martha’s Vineyard which you were so sure had high herd immunity spiked.  Vermont no masks but massive spike. You are basically down to the blue check cities of Seattle and the Bay Area which didn’t spike until now (but then Los Angeles didn’t spike until now either when the weather began to turn cold)

the objections are:
A. You have no proof masks plus vaccines would create herd immunity
B. Even if you did it’s based on a mistaken fallacy you could get to some absurdly high percentage like 98% which requires almost complete vaccination of cHildren
C. That it would have prevented every single death instead of just blunted the deaths a little more but we still would have gotten a spike (see Asia)
D. With the west directing it’s shots towards boosters and reserving a portion in case we need 4th round, that an omicron mutation would have been stopped in South Africa where the virus was freely circulated (which I specifically said would happen and even called out it would happen in Africa or India).


----------



## Grace T.

Dc after push back has delayed its school reopening for only 2 days but is requiring kids to test before returning. Cleveland supposedly has paused schools for 1 week.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> I object here. You have no evidence that vaccination+ masks would have avoided a delta spike.


As do most of us. 

He tosses around that 200k number as if it is fact.
He conveniently ignores that delta was everywhere around the world.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way...I may have to apologize to dad. 

There may be a way to effectively get people to socially distance.


----------



## Desert Hound

Note that they are still wondering about the vaxxes.

Which is why they shouldn't mandate them.

_The US, the UK and other major economies could be *on the brink of over-vaccinating people* in the fight against Covid, experts say._

--

_But scientists argue that rolling out vaccines every three-to-four months simply* isn't 'doable' *and may not even be necessary because of Omicron, which some believe will speed up the process of endemicity and consign days of sky-high hospitalization and death figures to history. 


And *they called for more data on dosing gaps between boosters before pressing ahead with plans to administer fourth jabs.* Some experts claim the benefits of extra jabs are minimal because their primary purpose - preventing deaths and hospitalizations - has barely waned after a year and several Covid variants, effectively meaning boosters are adding to an already high base level immunity.   

Professor Ian Jones, a virologist at the University of Reading, *said descriptions of Omicron being a 'natural vaccine' were right.*

The logic behind the argument is that as Omicron is highly transmissible but milder than other variants, it can give an immunity boost without causing as much serious illness, with some data suggesting a combination of infection than vaccination providing the best type of immunity in the long-run. _









						Experts warn dishing out fourth jabs in spring may be pointless
					

EXCLUSIVE: Experts have warned against offer a second Covid booster arguing it is not practical to do so every three months. Claims of Omicron as a 'natural vaccine' are debatable experts say.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I object here. You have no evidence that vaccination+ masks would have avoided a delta spike.  Your Asian countries that you cite, except for China but including South Korea, all had a delta spike but lower deaths for a reason we still don’t understand (despite some countries not having a high vaxx rate). European countries with high vaxx plus mask same thing (you just turn it around and say the vaxx rate is not high enough)!  Martha’s Vineyard which you were so sure had high herd immunity spiked.  Vermont no masks but massive spike. You are basically down to the blue check cities of Seattle and the Bay Area which didn’t spike until now (but then Los Angeles didn’t spike until now either when the weather began to turn cold)
> 
> the objections are:
> A. You have no proof masks plus vaccines would create herd immunity
> B. Even if you did it’s based on a mistaken fallacy you could get to some absurdly high percentage like 98% which requires almost complete vaccination of cHildren
> C. That it would have prevented every single death instead of just blunted the deaths a little more but we still would have gotten a spike (see Asia)
> D. With the west directing it’s shots towards boosters and reserving a portion in case we need 4th round, that an omicron mutation would have been stopped in South Africa where the virus was freely circulated (which I specifically said would happen and even called out it would happen in Africa or India).


Of course you object.

You want to believe that everything bad from covid was a foregone conclusion.  No need for each person to do their part if it's all predetermined.

I am tearing a giant hole in that fiction.  

I didn't expect you to like it.  But it is still true. The transmission reduction from masks and vaccination is well documented, and is large enough that we could have achieved herd immunity against Delta.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It is roughly the number of fatal covid cases during the Delta wave.
> 
> Almost all were preventable.


So what your saying is the dispensaries in your neighborhood deliver.


----------



## watfly

Its about to get a lot worse.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Of course you object.
> 
> You want to believe that everything bad from covid was a foregone conclusion.  No need for each person to do their part if it's all predetermined.
> 
> I am tearing a giant hole in that fiction.
> 
> I didn't expect you to like it.  But it is still true. The transmission reduction from masks and vaccination is well documented, and is large enough that we could have achieved herd immunity against Delta.


You?  Talking about fiction when you are living a fantasy?

as to reduction in masks we’ve gone through that before: we disagree on the number and you can’t point to any real world example

as to reduction in vaccination, we know that’s true but the question is how much.  A reduction from a very high number is still a very high number

and as to could have achieved herd immunity you have no proof. Taking arguendo your number you have no proof it reduces it to less than 1. You have no real world examples. And you fail to account for the rest of the world.

the only thing you have is “they didn’t do it right”.  Kind of like the modern daycommunists claiming there’s never been true communism.  This is the opposite of science…it’s faith.


----------



## met61

Excellent summation. This 100%.

CC: @dad4 and crew









						Ben Shapiro gets it right…
					

Don’t shoot the messenger.  Shapiro gets this one right.




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Turkovac

Who wants to go first?









						Turkey rolls out its own COVID-19 vaccine as infections surge
					

Turkey began administering its domestically developed COVID-19 vaccine, Turkovac, at hospitals across the country on Thursday, amid a rapid surge in infections due to the Omicron variant.  Turkey has already administered more than 130 million doses of vaccines using shots developed by China's...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You?  Talking about fiction when you are living a fantasy?
> 
> as to reduction in masks we’ve gone through that before: we disagree on the number and you can’t point to any real world example
> 
> as to reduction in vaccination, we know that’s true but the question is how much.  A reduction from a very high number is still a very high number
> 
> and as to could have achieved herd immunity you have no proof. Taking arguendo your number you have no proof it reduces it to less than 1. You have no real world examples. And you fail to account for the rest of the world.
> 
> the only thing you have is “they didn’t do it right”.  Kind of like the modern daycommunists claiming there’s never been true communism.  This is the opposite of science…it’s faith.


Communism doesn't work on a large scale because people are inherently (genetically, even) selfish and clannish.  Do you see the parallels with the general approach to controlling covid, or do I have to drag your nose through it?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> selfish and clannish. Do you see the parallels with the general approach to controlling covid, or do I have to drag your nose through it?


For once you are spot on. 

The left generally, and many politicians and many people have been selfish and clannish. 

Forcing kids to mask up and miss school is one example of the selfishness. 

Another would be advocating the shuttering of many businesses while many were able to still get a paycheck working from home. 

You win today espola for finally figuring something out. Took you 365 days this year. How long will it take next year?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Communism doesn't work on a large scale because people are inherently (genetically, even) selfish and clannish.  Do you see the parallels with the general approach to controlling covid, or do I have to drag your nose through it?


Hey then we agree on something. Go figure!  Again I deal in realities, not fantasies


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> For once you are spot on.
> 
> The left generally, and many politicians and many people have been selfish and clannish.
> 
> Forcing kids to mask up and miss school is one example of the selfishness.
> 
> Another would be advocating the shuttering of many businesses while many were able to still get a paycheck working from home.
> 
> You win today espola for finally figuring something out. Took you 365 days this year. How long will it take next year?


Every once in a while he’ll have a moment of lucidity even if he doesn’t fully understand it. I mean we’ve written pages and pages of even the party bosses, even the health “experts” advising them, not being able to take their own medicine.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Every once in a while he’ll have a moment of lucidity even if he doesn’t fully understand it. I mean we’ve written pages and pages of even the party bosses, even the health “experts” advising them, not being able to take their own medicine.


Do you not see DH's selfish translation of what I posted, or are you just playing along with your team?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So what your saying is the dispensaries in your neighborhood deliver.


Oh, they do.  I'm too old for that shit, though.

I stand by the numbers in the claim.  I don't expect anyone here to like it.  

Grace's word spam is telling.  Anytime you throw that many disconnected half arguments into one post, it means you know none of them are any good.

My favorite is her claim that the Martha's Vineyard Omicron spike proves they didn't have herd immunity to Delta.  Not sure why she thinks an Omicron spike disproves Delta immunity, but there it is.


----------



## met61

...wait what? uhmmm...Ah, consider the source, right-wing...oh shhhesh! Look, SQUIRREL!

BREAKING NEWS:
"96% Of Germans With Omicron Were 'Fully Vaccinated,' 28% Triple Vaxxed, Only 4% Unvaxxed, Government Says"


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Do you not see DH's selfish translation of what I posted, or are you just playing along with your team?


Selfish is in the eye of the beholder. We can say the same thing about your generation putting their safety on the backs of kids.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Oh, they do.  I'm too old for that shit, though.
> 
> I stand by the numbers in the claim.  I don't expect anyone here to like it.
> 
> Grace's word spam is telling.  Anytime you throw that many disconnected half arguments into one post, it means you know none of them are any good.
> 
> My favorite is her claim that the Martha's Vineyard Omicron spike proves they didn't have herd immunity to Delta.  Not sure why she thinks an Omicron spike disproves Delta immunity, but there it is.


Well kudos to you for standing firm even in the face of reality.  IDK about micro claims of this and that, but the big picture is blatantly obvious.

Like someone said we could avoid all auto deaths if we just stopped driving.  Its just not reality.

Omicron will be interesting.  We will see if it turns out to be the "natural vaccination" from Covid as many experts are predicting.  It cant be any worse from the injected vaccination for immunity.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Oh, they do.  I'm too old for that shit, though.
> 
> I stand by the numbers in the claim.  I don't expect anyone here to like it.
> 
> Grace's word spam is telling.  Anytime you throw that many disconnected half arguments into one post, it means you know none of them are any good.
> 
> My favorite is her claim that the Martha's Vineyard Omicron spike proves they didn't have herd immunity to Delta.  Not sure why she thinks an Omicron spike disproves Delta immunity, but there it is.


Because the Martha’s Vineyard spike began the first/second week of December.  You going to argue it was all omicron due to recent travelers to Africa?  The New York State and Massachusetts spikes going on right now aren’t even primarily omicron driven (the cdc pulled it’s hold on mono clones because they were mistaken around christmas about omicron prevalence…it’s was about a 3rd).  If you look at the distribution we have right now, omicron is centered on the cities (like nyc which is now experiencing a double spike), radiating outwards…pushing delta out.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Oh, they do.  I'm too old for that shit, though.
> 
> I stand by the numbers in the claim.  I don't expect anyone here to like it.
> 
> Grace's word spam is telling.  Anytime you throw that many disconnected half arguments into one post, it means you know none of them are any good.
> 
> My favorite is her claim that the Martha's Vineyard Omicron spike proves they didn't have herd immunity to Delta.  Not sure why she thinks an Omicron spike disproves Delta immunity, but there it is.


Ps you pulled an espola and are handwaiving by claiming the early/mid December spike in Martha’s Vineyard is all omicron while ignoring and hamdwaiving away the main thrust of the argument: you have no proof for your belief…only faith.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> You want to believe that everything bad from covid was a foregone conclusion.  No need for each person to do their part if it's all predetermined.


I love the Calvinistovertones.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Of course you object.
> 
> You want to believe that everything bad from covid was a foregone conclusion.  No need for each person to do their part if it's all predetermined.
> 
> I am tearing a giant hole in that fiction.
> 
> I didn't expect you to like it.  But it is still true. The transmission reduction from masks and vaccination is well documented, and is large enough that we could have achieved herd immunity against Delta.


The religious undertones are unmistakable.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Because the Martha’s Vineyard spike began the first/second week of December.  You going to argue it was all omicron due to recent travelers to Africa?  The New York State and Massachusetts spikes going on right now aren’t even primarily omicron driven (the cdc pulled it’s hold on mono clones because they were mistaken around christmas about omicron prevalence…it’s was about a 3rd).  If you look at the distribution we have right now, omicron is centered on the cities (like nyc which is now experiencing a double spike), radiating outwards…pushing delta out.


Martha's Vineyard is full of very highly connected people.  No reason to think they wouldn't be ahead of the curve on Omicron.

Also possible that you're looking at two overlapping waves: a Thanksgiving Delta spike in early Dec, then the Omicron spike in mid to late Dec.  

Either way, it's still consistent with Delta herd immunity.  Herd immunity doesn't mean you don't get a case surge when you hold a party.  Ask Obama.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Selfish is in the eye of the beholder. We can say the same thing about your generation putting their safety on the backs of kids.


I was thinking more like "I don't like the rules, so they don't apply to me" kind of selfish.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Martha's Vineyard is full of very highly connected people.  No reason to think they wouldn't be ahead of the curve on Omicron.
> 
> Also possible that you're looking at two overlapping waves: a Thanksgiving Delta spike in early Dec, then the Omicron spike in mid to late Dec.
> 
> Either way, it's still consistent with Delta herd immunity.  Herd immunity doesn't mean you don't get a case surge when you hold a party.  Ask Obama.


You’ll waive or define away any data point that runs contrary to your belief but nevertheless without any evidence you assure us herd immunity could be achieved.  But now we discover it’s not mask plus vaxx…apparently to get herd immunity you have to lockdown too apparently by avoiding thanksgiving Christmas and parties.  As others have noted for you you cannot lock down society for two plus years. At least you are (finally) being honest about your preferred policies


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I was thinking more like "I don't like the rules, so they don't apply to me" kind of selfish.


I think that’s her attitude to a tee. She believes everything is how she sees it or wants it seen. Also she is attempting to blame seniors for the  protection they have been afforded, as if they were solely in charge of the efforts.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I think that’s her attitude to a tee. She believes everything is how she sees it or wants it seen. Also she is attempting to blame seniors for the  protection they have been afforded, as if they were solely in charge of the efforts.


That’s funny coming from the three trolls plus dad4. Comedy is supposed to be espola’s thing.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> I think that’s her attitude to a tee. She believes everything is how she sees it or wants it seen. Also she is attempting to blame seniors for the  protection they have been afforded, as if they were solely in charge of the efforts.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> attempting to blame seniors for the  protection they have been afforded, as if they were solely in charge of the efforts.


Let me double check which school aged children made the policies that afforded such protections… hmm, no luck there.

Let me look into the average age of those responsible for policy decisions… that’s interesting.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You’ll waive or define away any data point that runs contrary to your belief but nevertheless without any evidence you assure us herd immunity could be achieved.  But now we discover it’s not mask plus vaxx…apparently to get herd immunity you have to lockdown too apparently by avoiding thanksgiving Christmas and parties.  As others have noted for you you cannot lock down society for two plus years. At least you are (finally) being honest about your preferred policies


There is nothing to define away.  You presented evidence that Martha’s Vineyard does not have Omicron herd immunity.  I agree.  Martha’s Vnneyard is not herd immune to omicron.

If you want to say something about delta herd immunity, you need to show evidence of delta growth on Martha’s Vineyard.  So far, you have not done so.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> There is nothing to define away.  You presented evidence that Martha’s Vineyard does not have Omicron herd immunity.  I agree.  Martha’s Vnneyard is not herd immune to omicron.
> 
> If you want to say something about delta herd immunity, you need to show evidence of delta growth on Martha’s Vineyard.  So far, you have not done so.


*yawn*

 I think given this exchange you both need to concede the ‘ability to prove’ and accept a degree of faith in both of your respective positions.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> *yawn*
> 
> I think given this exchange you both need to concede the ‘ability to prove’ and accept a degree of faith in both of your respective positions.


a. I'm not the one making the claim we could have hit herd immunity against the delta.  I'm saying there's no proof either way.  What little real world evidence we have, though, runs counter to that.  Is it possible? yes.  Is it likely?  No, particularly since south africa would have unfolded the same way.
b. Martha's vineyard had a spike beginning early december/mid december.  below.  Is it possible someone seeded an omicron outbreak from south africa? Yes.  Is that likely? No, considering that Massachusetts even now is about 50/50 omicron/delta in last reporting.










						The Vineyard Gazette | Covid-19 stories
					

Martha's Vineyard news pertaining to Covid-19.




					vineyardgazette.com
				












						COVID cases continue spike - The Martha's Vineyard Times
					

The number of new COVID cases shot into the triple digits last week, with 105 new cases — the first time cases have reached over 100 since the beginning of April. From Dec. 5 to 11, there were 80 cases reported at the Martha’s Vineyard Hospital, 13 at TestMV, and 12 at other providers. Of …




					www.mvtimes.com


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> a. I'm not the one making the claim we could have hit herd immunity against the delta.  I'm saying there's no proof either way.  What little real world evidence we have, though, runs counter to that.  Is it possible? yes.  Is it likely?  No, particularly since south africa would have unfolded the same way.
> b. Martha's vineyard had a spike beginning early december/mid december.  below.  Is it possible someone seeded an omicron outbreak from south africa? Yes.  Is that likely? No, considering that Massachusetts even now is about 50/50 omicron/delta in last reporting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Vineyard Gazette | Covid-19 stories
> 
> 
> Martha's Vineyard news pertaining to Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vineyardgazette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID cases continue spike - The Martha's Vineyard Times
> 
> 
> The number of new COVID cases shot into the triple digits last week, with 105 new cases — the first time cases have reached over 100 since the beginning of April. From Dec. 5 to 11, there were 80 cases reported at the Martha’s Vineyard Hospital, 13 at TestMV, and 12 at other providers. Of …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mvtimes.com


So, strongly weighted opinions, but impossible to ‘prove’ on both sides.

Don’t get distracted by trying to find the ‘proof’ (sorry, can’t avoid a dad joke as a parent).


----------



## Brav520

Thought this was a good listen , and yes I’ve read the Atlantic hit piece on him









						#1757 - Dr. Robert Malone, MD
					

Listen to this episode from The Joe Rogan Experience on Spotify. Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experiments) and RNA transfection. Dr...




					open.spotify.com


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Thought this was a good listen , and yes I’ve read the Atlantic hit piece on him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #1757 - Dr. Robert Malone, MD
> 
> 
> Listen to this episode from The Joe Rogan Experience on Spotify. Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experiments) and RNA transfection. Dr...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> open.spotify.com


Why?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Thought this was a good listen , and yes I’ve read the Atlantic hit piece on him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #1757 - Dr. Robert Malone, MD
> 
> 
> Listen to this episode from The Joe Rogan Experience on Spotify. Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, which were originally filed in 1989 (including both the idea of mRNA vaccines and the original proof of principle experiments) and RNA transfection. Dr...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> open.spotify.com


A more thorough look at mRNA development history than the Atlantic article which focused mostly on Malone's personality problems.









						The tangled history of mRNA vaccines
					

Hundreds of scientists had worked on mRNA vaccines for decades before the coronavirus pandemic brought a breakthrough.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Why?


lengthy discussion about all things Covid


----------



## NorCalDad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477154648838447104


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477154648838447104


We’ll she starts off with a false canard…that it’s possible to avoid Covid. As I wrote in March 2020: everyone Is going to get it and multiple times

then she shifts to the idea we’ll just until more antivirals are available. The issue is there are issues surrounding the ones we have (such as the mutations on the one: and that it’s contraindicated for several groups on the other)….there’s nothing else on the horizon. So what you’d be banking on is an omicron specific vaccine and no further mutations and then convincing everyone to take a 4th shot (after public health has majorly burned their credibility).

She then shifts into the old canard about long Covid (which has been shown to be small for the vaccinated and so far even smaller for the omicron). she then shifts to the glass staff argument but doesn’t acknowledge these people (especially children) are equally or more vulnerable to flu and we don’t go out of our way every year.

She then suggests several common sense measures which are less measured than even dad4s shut indoor dining…sure do that….it won’t make a dent against omicron…as long as you are forcing people out to work it will spread let alone socialize and schools.  Finally she ends up with higher end masks…good luck with that.


----------



## Grace T.

School opening delays now in Cleveland, Detroit, Ann Arbor, several districts in missouri, Massachusetts and New Jersey.

babs has sent out a letter to LAUSD and the other la county districts and indie schools mandating better masks and testing requirements including masks while outdoors. Rumor has it the letter contains levels at which school sports and schools will be shut down but no one has tweeted or reported the actual letter yet so this is unconfirmed. Other rumor I’ve seen is that indoor sports have been suspended and that tournaments with out of county participants are prohibited. Again unconfirmed. No one so far has a copy of the letter I’ve seen. Eric s at the la times only tweeted the first page so only the first sentence seems definite.


----------



## MicPaPa

You Covidians are creating a nation of pussies, our WWI ancestors would find you pathetic. 

That's all, good night.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> You Covidians are creating a nation of pussies, our WWI ancestors would find you pathetic.
> 
> That's all, good night.


WWI?

Our WWI ancestors would have been delighted to have access to a flu shot.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> School opening delays now in Cleveland, Detroit, Ann Arbor, several districts in missouri, Massachusetts and New Jersey.
> 
> babs has sent out a letter to LAUSD and the other la county districts and indie schools mandating better masks and testing requirements including masks while outdoors. Rumor has it the letter contains levels at which school sports and schools will be shut down but no one has tweeted or reported the actual letter yet so this is unconfirmed. Other rumor I’ve seen is that indoor sports have been suspended and that tournaments with out of county participants are prohibited. Again unconfirmed. No one so far has a copy of the letter I’ve seen. Eric s at the la times only tweeted the first page so only the first sentence seems definite.


Schools in Newark and some in New York City join the delayed opening list.  The reaction among parents is growing. There’s a vocal group of parents and teachers demanding the schools go remote and there’s another thats is adamantly opposed.  The biggest political obstacle and the thing being used to hang the d politicians are that the bars and restaurants are packed but they are closing schools first. Fact that this is also happening Midwest (and not just New England/nyc/west coast) is going to have huge political implications for the ds even in districts that don’t close but are nearby those that do. It’s the Disneyland rule corollary: you can’t close the schools if you have bars and restaurants open.

here in Los Angeles no one (not even the la times story covering it) has been able to produce what’s on the second page of the la county letter other than the metric for School:sports shut down is 3000 hospitalizations per day.  La cases now exceed last years winter peak despite the Los Angeles mask mandates and in fact exceed the oc.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> WWI?
> 
> Our WWI ancestors would have been delighted to have access to a flu shot.


Of all innovations it's fitting what you picked, and equally fitting that your merry band of pussies agrees.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> WWI?
> 
> Our WWI ancestors would have been delighted to have access to a flu shot.


Also, I'm sure our WWI ancestors didn't use "delighted"


----------



## Desert Hound

In the Ultimate Lockdown, Researchers in Antarctica Get the Rona - Victory Girls Blog
					

Belgian researchers in Antarctica, at the most remote end of the earth, have tested positive for COVID.




					victorygirlsblog.com


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> In the Ultimate Lockdown, Researchers in Antarctica Get the Rona - Victory Girls Blog
> 
> 
> Belgian researchers in Antarctica, at the most remote end of the earth, have tested positive for COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> victorygirlsblog.com


Assume 1 person came down with it in transit (possible they caught it on way through South Africa even though they quarantined).  That’s a 66% failure rate for the boosters. A 66% failure rate means the vaccine boosters are doing substantial nothing to slow the spread now with omicron.  Mandates are worthless at this point.  That’s case over. QED.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Of all innovations it's fitting what you picked, and equally fitting that your merry band of pussies agrees.


You seem to have forgotten that the 1918 flu killed more people than the great war. 

Yes, it was fitting.  And apparently fitting that you missed it.  Zounds!  What a poor historian you are!


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Schools in Newark and some in New York City join the delayed opening list.  The reaction among parents is growing. There’s a vocal group of parents and teachers demanding the schools go remote and there’s another thats is adamantly opposed.  The biggest political obstacle and the thing being used to hang the d politicians are that the bars and restaurants are packed but they are closing schools first. Fact that this is also happening Midwest (and not just New England/nyc/west coast) is going to have huge political implications for the ds even in districts that don’t close but are nearby those that do. It’s the Disneyland rule corollary: you can’t close the schools if you have bars and restaurants open.
> 
> here in Los Angeles no one (not even the la times story covering it) has been able to produce what’s on the second page of the la county letter other than the metric for School:sports shut down is 3000 hospitalizations per day.  La cases now exceed last years winter peak despite the Los Angeles mask mandates and in fact exceed the oc.


Seattle joins the list. Short pause for testing and mask upgrades.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Assume 1 person came down with it in transit (possible they caught it on way through South Africa even though they quarantined).  That’s a 66% failure rate for the boosters. A 66% failure rate means the vaccine boosters are doing substantial nothing to slow the spread now with omicron.  Mandates are worthless at this point.  That’s case over. QED.


If only they were all Korean and/or Mormons.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You seem to have forgotten that the 1918 flu killed more people than the great war.
> 
> Yes, it was fitting.  And apparently fitting that you missed it.  Zounds!  What a poor historian you are!


I saw on Twitter the other day a newspaper cartoon from 1922 showing father new year hoping the baby new year would finally reach a return to normalcy.  That wasn’t all flu…it’s also the demobilization, rationing, Russian civil war, scandals of the us admin. But I still find it interesting that while wwi lives on in the consciousness, the flu epidemic gets memory holed and lost in the midst of the roaring 20s which was already taking off by 1921.  I wonder why?  Maybe the Great Depression was just so much more traumatic that it wiped it from memory coupled with prohibition? It’s odd though that they could have memory holed it so quickly despite the number of people that died. While I agree they would have been thrilled with vaccines, they also seemed to have a que sera sera moment.

in any case the phrase you are looking for is beastly.  As in “it’s just positively beastly”


----------



## dad4

No reason to act surprised.   The models predicted a sharp peak of somewhat milder cases.  We are seeing exactly that.  

We should have a couple more doublings left before peak.  Not sure what that means for hospitals, but I wouldn’t take up any dangerous sports for another 3 weeks or so.  They might be a little slow to patch you back up.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I saw on Twitter the other day a newspaper cartoon from 1922 showing father new year hoping the baby new year would finally reach a return to normalcy.  That wasn’t all flu…it’s also the demobilization, rationing, Russian civil war, scandals of the us admin. But I still find it interesting that while wwi lives on in the consciousness, the flu epidemic gets memory holed and lost in the midst of the roaring 20s which was already taking off by 1921.  I wonder why?  Maybe the Great Depression was just so much more traumatic that it wiped it from memory coupled with prohibition? It’s odd though that they could have memory holed it so quickly despite the number of people that died. While I agree they would have been thrilled with vaccines, they also seemed to have a que sera sera moment.
> 
> in any case the phrase you are looking for is beastly.  As in “it’s just positively beastly”


Memory holed?  Speak for yourself.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Memory holed?  Speak for yourself.


Yeah I forget you were around back then. Most of us didn’t have the first hand experience and had to rely on school history lessons. Or the poetry, films, music, literature, and plays highlighting the experience (as opposed to the Great Depression or two world wars).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yeah I forget you were around back then. Most of us didn’t have the first hand experience and had to rely on school history lessons. Or the poetry, films, music, literature, and plays highlighting the experience (as opposed to the Great Depression or two world wars).


Your lack of education is nobody's fault but your own.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Your lack of education is nobody's fault but your own.


Haha. Back to comedy I see.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Haha. Back to comedy I see.


I can't speak to the 1922 New Year cartoon you referenced since I haven't seen it, but in general, that sort of thing references what happened in the year past (in this case that would be 1921).  By that time, the 1918 flu epidemic was over two years gone, with the last significant levels of infection and death tapering off in early 1919.  A cartoon referencing that would have been appropriate for New Year 1920, not 1922.  

I was also going to going to question your reference to the "scandals of the us admin", since not much was known of that until nearer the time of Harding's death in 1923 with the greatest exposures occurring after that. 

Rushing?  Or just running open loop?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I can't speak to the 1922 New Year cartoon you referenced since I haven't seen it, but in general, that sort of thing references what happened in the year past (in this case that would be 1921).  By that time, the 1918 flu epidemic was over two years gone, with the last significant levels of infection and death tapering off in early 1919.  A cartoon referencing that would have been appropriate for New Year 1920, not 1922.
> 
> I was also going to going to question your reference to the "scandals of the us admin", since not much was known of that until nearer the time of Harding's death in 1923 with the greatest exposures occurring after that.
> 
> Rushing?  Or just running open loop?


You are off on a tangent again. The objection you had raised was against the flu pandemic being memory holed. You want to go down rabbit holes about when the pandemic ended, the cartoon (which I have no idea if its legit) or the Harding scandals?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> School opening delays now in Cleveland, Detroit, Ann Arbor, several districts in missouri, Massachusetts and New Jersey.
> 
> babs has sent out a letter to LAUSD and the other la county districts and indie schools mandating better masks and testing requirements including masks while outdoors. Rumor has it the letter contains levels at which school sports and schools will be shut down but no one has tweeted or reported the actual letter yet so this is unconfirmed. Other rumor I’ve seen is that indoor sports have been suspended and that tournaments with out of county participants are prohibited. Again unconfirmed. No one so far has a copy of the letter I’ve seen. Eric s at the la times only tweeted the first page so only the first sentence seems definite.


Crazy. Yesterday I stood shoulder to shoulder with 90k other people that were 90% maskless, but tomorrow some kids wont be able to go to school?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You are off on a tangent again. The objection you had raised was against the flu pandemic being memory holed. You want to go down rabbit holes about when the pandemic ended, the cartoon (which I have no idea if its legit) or the Harding scandals?


Ignore the Harding "tangent" if you like.  It is much more subtle than your suggestion about a "memory hole".  As I said, speak for yourself.


----------



## Grace T.

CDC had recommended due to staffing fears (such as for hospitals) reducing the quarantine for a positive test from ten to five days. Now apparently citing push back they considering adding a testing requirement (despite their explanation that tests may remain positive a long time after despite not being infectious). The added complication is testing is being strained right now (as suggested by the long lines for testing we’ve been seeing in the northeast). CDC is doing politics again rather than science.  They can’t seem to help burning what credibility they have left.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Crazy. Yesterday I stood shoulder to shoulder with 90k other people that were 90% maskless, but tomorrow some kids wont be able to go to school?


Both were overreactions.

The stadium or concert should not have been open at that density, and the schools are the wrong thing to close.  (Bars, restaurants, casinos, gyms, cruise lines, and recreational air travel all should close before schools.)

At least it should be short this time.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Both were overreactions.
> 
> The stadium or concert should not have been open at that density, and the schools are the wrong thing to close.  (Bars, restaurants, casinos, gyms, cruise lines, and recreational air travel all should close before schools.)
> 
> At least it should be short this time.


Hey we agree on something!

There’s a limiting factor in place when it comes to SoCal. Eric Sondheimer of la times has speculated maybe that’s what’s guiding the la county school policy. The super bowl for which Barbara ferrer would have hell to pay politically from the supervisors if it’s restricted. Kind of like the Disneyland corollary: how would parents feel if the Super Bowl goes forward and la schools are either closed or have very recently been closed.  The hospital levels are probably at about the catastrophe level she feels she’s have to go against the supervisors and take out the Super Bowl (which no doubt would humiliatingly decamp to a red state).


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> . Now apparently citing push back they considering adding a testing requirement (despite their explanation that tests may remain positive a long time after despite not being infectious).


PCR testing may remain positive for some time, but the rapid tests do not.  Finally… something they’re useful for.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hey we agree on something!
> 
> There’s a limiting factor in place when it comes to SoCal. Eric Sondheimer of la times has speculated maybe that’s what’s guiding the la county school policy. The super bowl for which Barbara ferrer would have hell to pay politically from the supervisors if it’s restricted. Kind of like the Disneyland corollary: how would parents feel if the Super Bowl goes forward and la schools are either closed or have very recently been closed.  The hospital levels are probably at about the catastrophe level she feels she’s have to go against the supervisors and take out the Super Bowl (which no doubt would humiliatingly decamp to a red state).


School closure may be forced.  If enough kids and staff are sick at the same time, no choice left.  You're not running normal class that day.

Super Bowl is Feb 13, well after Omicron peak.   School closures ought to be over by then.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> You seem to have forgotten that the 1918 flu killed more people than the great war.
> 
> Yes, it was fitting.  And apparently fitting that you missed it.  Zounds!  What a poor historian you are!


Yet real men fought on, which is exactly the point that escapes you. Don't need to be a historian to have a pair and spine....give it a shot.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> You seem to have forgotten that the 1918 flu killed more people than the great war.
> 
> Yes, it was fitting.  And apparently fitting that you missed it.  Zounds!  What a poor historian you are!


BTW, besides not eating quiche, real men don't use "zounds" either.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Yet real men fought on, which is exactly the point that escapes you. Don't need to be a historian to have a pair and spine....give it a shot.


Real men fought on?  Maybe in Siberia.  For everyone else, the war ended about the time the flu really got going.  

Do you get all your facts from watching John Wayne movies?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Real men fought on?  Maybe in Siberia.  For everyone else, the war ended about the time the flu really got going.
> 
> Do you get all your facts from watching John Wayne movies?


No, historical accounts, your timeline is wrong. But, doesn't matter how far you're off, my point stands.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Your lack of education is nobody's fault but your own.


Remember that ignorance is a badge amongst that set.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> CDC had recommended due to staffing fears (such as for hospitals) reducing the quarantine for a positive test from ten to five days. Now apparently citing push back they considering adding a testing requirement (despite their explanation that tests may remain positive a long time after despite not being infectious). The added complication is testing is being strained right now (as suggested by the long lines for testing we’ve been seeing in the northeast). CDC is doing politics again rather than science.  They can’t seem to help burning what credibility they have left.


The CDC is tying itself into knots.  It would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad.


----------



## Grace T.

Reports trickling in from various nyc schools suspending in person schools because teachers are refusing to teach until there is a pause for in person learning. Class being canceled while many parents (let alone kids) are already in bed.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Reports trickling in from various nyc schools suspending in person schools because teachers are refusing to teach until there is a pause for in person learning. Class being canceled while many parents (let alone kids) are already in bed.


Hopefully Adams kicks some ass.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> School closure may be forced.  If enough kids and staff are sick at the same time, no choice left.  You're not running normal class that day.
> 
> Super Bowl is Feb 13, well after Omicron peak.   School closures ought to be over by then.


I’m not so sure about that. Uk has been building for a month now and still not at peak. South Africa remember was out of season. It will be close…definitely on the downslope but I’m not so sure it will be over by then.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Crazy. Yesterday I stood shoulder to shoulder with 90k other people that were 90% maskless, but tomorrow some kids wont be able to go to school?


I believe "protect the children" is Team Fear's pat response.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe "protect the children" is Team Fear's pat response.


I didn't know who is on Team Fear, but it seems to be one of Grace's themes that shutting down schools and sports harms children.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I didn't know who is on Team Fear, but it seems to be one of Grace's themes that shutting down schools and sports harms children.


Are you claiming it doesn’t?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I’m not so sure about that. Uk has been building for a month now and still not at peak. South Africa remember was out of season. It will be close…definitely on the downslope but I’m not so sure it will be over by then.


I think the first part of that month may be a winter boost to Delta.  

Do you know which day Omicron became the majority in UK?  That would give an estimate for how many days they are ahead of us.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think the first part of that month may be a winter boost to Delta.
> 
> Do you know which day Omicron became the majority in UK?  That would give an estimate for how many days they are ahead of us.


According to the wsj it hit majority somewhere from dec 15-dec 18.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow my friend just came back from mammoth and she and her family rapid tested for covid (they have mild cold so were trying to decide what to do with the kid tomorrow).  Fully vaxxed + had the alpha.  My uncle and his family too. They are all fully vaxxed and boosted. That’s like 8 people I know now that are boosted and got it, 3 people vaxxed and prior illness (with one pending asymptomatic).


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Are you claiming it doesn’t?


It's certainly a different life than was planned for them a couple of years ago.  Whether that results in harm or not will be an interesting question for future sociologists.  Did the kids who suffered through the Great Depression and went off to war turn out better or worse than they would have otherwise?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I think the first part of that month may be a winter boost to Delta.
> 
> Do you know which day Omicron became the majority in UK?  That would give an estimate for how many days they are ahead of us.


The UK does a  good job of genome profiling so you can follow all the variant data here, updated once a week.  The rate of change for omicron is flattening so the UK is near or at their peak.  There will be interesting stuff to track on the back side.  For instance, given the idea that omicron infection preferentially elevates immune resistance to earlier variants, it will be interesting to see to what extent the UK sees a strong/sustained deflection in delta cases.  As omicron samples it's genotypic space, what new variants will emerge and do any gain a foothold?  What will the composition of the swarm look like say four months from now?






						COVID-19 variants: genomically confirmed case numbers
					

Genomically confirmed case numbers for SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Ellejustus

Good Morning Friends and Foes.  I sure hope everyone had a great a New Years with their family & friends.  My wife and I had the time of our lives out in Joshua Tree.  First time for me and the wife.  I want to share how amazing it was with you guys.  It truly was magical and full of love and mercy.  25 strangers all coming together to usher in the new year.  23 of these wonderful souls were from LA and two from the OC.  My heart goes out to all my LA friends and my prayers to you.  Not easy living in in LA.  We were brought together by a higher source and we let go of so much and are now back to help serve humanity.  The big word for me I came away with was FREEDOM!  Yes, we all are going to be set free, especially the children.  The other word was "kindness."  Speak your truth but do it with kindness.  I want to be more kind when I'm trying to help someone with the truth.  I start my new job tomorrow and I'm so excited.  It's been a tough one you guys but I see a light at the end of a very dark tunnel.


----------



## Ellejustus

Is this accurate news headline?

*DENMARK: 90% Of Omicron Infections Found In 'Fully Vaccinated' Or 'Boosted' Individuals*


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Are you claiming it doesn’t?


The existing harm is well documented. He and his merry band of trolls are doing what they do - trolling. Anyone who is actually stupid enough to post what he posts wouldn't be able to find the internet.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> The existing harm is well documented. He and his merry band of trolls are doing what they do - trolling. Anyone who is actually stupid enough to post what he posts wouldn't be able to find the internet.


"Troll" is wrong word.  These are not trolls.  I got a very good download on Espola this weekend and why he is so bitter and full of lies at his old age. This is common behavior for those who chose his path and have no love to give.  It's all a choice.  He had a very difficult childhood and he doesn't think kids should have it easy and be free because he wasn't free and he hate it as a little boy.  Add the fact he was stuck on a ship for years was horrible for him.  For some reason he wants children to suffer.  He has no mercy or love to give right now.  Pray for him and his buddies because that's all we can do to help him.  2022 is going to be a year of abundance for some and a year of reckoning for others.  Karma is coming hard this year.


----------



## Ellejustus

Reporter:  Hey Doc, why are you saying these things to Joe?  You must have a incentive to speak againts your invention?

Doc Robert:  Because it's the right thing to do

Thank you to ALL the people who are not bought, bribed or blackmailed.  Thank you Doctor for speaking up because, "It's the right thing to do."


----------



## Ellejustus

Hey fellas and Grace T, I want to share about a 54 year old millionaire man I met this weekend that I will call George.  His testimony was what I needed to hear and I was so inspired by his decisions he made back 5 months ago.  I found a "HOT" man and they are not easy to find.  What is a "HOT" man you ask? A man who is* H*onest, *O*pen and *T*ransparent.  I'm putting together a men's retreat later in the year called, "Men Rising."  You guys, it's time to be a real man for truth because just like Doctor Robert said, "It's the RIGHT thing to do."

George lives in Beverly Hills.  He has worked at the same Movie Studio for over 23 years.  He helps make the final cuts in big movies.  He told me he basically lived in a dark room at work all day for 23 years and then we he got off work, he lived the glamour life of Hollywood and used his influence to indulge in the 5 senses.  Imagine that job and that life style.  He said he knows too much evil that went on and Covid made him to take a hard look at himself and he didnt like what he saw inside.  Outside, he was the man.  Major player at big time movie studio that we all respect, making lot's and lot's of money and had all the ladies he wanted.  Married twice but divorced and just miserable on the inside from his choices and the Karma that came with those choices was killing him on the inside.  Anyway, he went to a retreat up in Mount Shasta that changed his life.  He got poked hard by the Universe and he listened.  He said it all started with his first and only J & J Jab.  He said he sat in the chair as they give him the shot and as the juice was flowing into his veins he awoke and thought to himself, "What the fuck am I doing this for and this seems suspicious at best."  His words not mine. Anyway, he negotiated early retirement with his boss and has been traveling in a tent and trailer the last 4 months being outside with mother nature. He loves God in a super cool scientific way, but not in a religious way at all, if that makes any sense.  Not all into Jesus and church, but just peace for himself and his own God and is learning Christ consciousness and the ways of Yeshua.  You guys, this guy is moving out of LA and traveling this amazing country all outdoors and he's the happiest he is ever been.  He almost got sucked into the Metaverse but the Universe said, "No George, we need you on the earth to help the men."  I love this guy and he is my new best friend


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> It's certainly a different life than was planned for them a couple of years ago.  Whether that results in harm or not will be an interesting question for future sociologists.  Did the kids who suffered through the Great Depression and went off to war turn out better or worse than they would have otherwise?


It’s a yes or no question.  Which is it?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It’s a yes or no question.  Which is it?


No, it's not.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Hopefully Adams kicks some ass.


Kicks some ass? 

Unlikely.

Will he be better than deBlasio? On paper it seems very likely.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> but it seems to be one of Grace's themes that shutting down schools and sports harms children


I am guessing since you seem to be skeptical of that theme you like shutting down schools and sports for kids.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I am guessing since you seem to be skeptical of that theme you like shutting down schools and sports for kids.


Keep on guessing.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> I am guessing since you seem to be skeptical of that theme you like shutting down schools and sports for kids.


It's worse, keep guessing Hound.


----------



## Ellejustus

Betty White died after her booster shot.  99 ((33x3)) years old and it finally came to an end for her.  Wait until you find out who her brother was.  Yikes.  Check this video out from a few years ago and see if you think this was just some prank.  That lady never aged.......


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Keep on guessing.


Why you after the kids?


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Desert Hound

Interesting if the data continues this way. 

_Data continues to come in showing that the vaccines are not only powerless against the highly transmissible, but mild Omicron variant—the new strain appears to favor the fully vaccinated.

In Canada, 76.87 percent of the population is fully vaccinated, and 81.1 percent of recent cases are amongst the fully vaccinated, Dr. Ezra Kahan reported on __Twitter._

--

_A Robert Koch Institute report released on Thursday found that that 95.58 percent of the Omicron cases in Germany are fully vaccinated, including 28 percent who had received a “booster.” Only 4.42 percent of the Omicron cases in Germany are unvaccinated.
Reportedly, 71.1 percent of the total population is fully vaccinated in Germany.

In Israel, 61 percent of the cases for the week ending on Dec. 25 were boosted. Another 18 percent were fully vaccinated. Only 19 percent were unvaccinated.









						Data From Around the World–Including Antarctica!–Show Omicron Favoring the Fully Vaccinated › American Greatness
					

The coronavirus has reached remote Antarctica, striking most of the 25 Belgian staffers at a research station, despite all of them being fully vaccinated, passing multiple PCR tests…




					amgreatness.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

This sums up government work. To be honest also a lot of big corporations as well.





__





						The French Army in 1940…and the American CDC in 2021 – Chicago Boyz
					





					chicagoboyz.net


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Interesting if the data continues this way.
> 
> 
> 
> _In Israel, 61 percent of the cases for the week ending on Dec. 25 were boosted. Another 18 percent were fully vaccinated. Only 19 percent were unvaccinated._


Israel is 92% vaccinated, so the remaining 8% unvaccinated account for 19% of the cases.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Israel is 92% vaccinated, so the remaining 8% unvaccinated account for 19% of the cases.


Dr. Robert calls them Pfizrael now.  They are now going on their 4th shot and only use Pfizer.  Most jabbed country in the world and the highest death count and highest adverse reaction per average human.  Heart attacks are off the charts now.  Over in Palestine?  No jabs being forced which = no deaths from jab.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> No, it's not.


Thanks for proving the proof I was looking for.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Israel is 92% vaccinated, so the remaining 8% unvaccinated account for 19% of the cases.


All the Vaccinate should quarantine to protect the Unvaxx’d….is that how you want it to work?  The majority take action to protect the vulnerable minority?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> This sums up government work. To be honest also a lot of big corporations as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French Army in 1940…and the American CDC in 2021 – Chicago Boyz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chicagoboyz.net


Do you think the writer knew that Monet died in 1926, so Picasso was talking to his ghost I guess!

It is a fair point on the French military in 1940. The German generals were shitting themselves as the French army was the most powerful (on paper) in Europe. A scout plane spotted an enormous traffic jam in the Ardennes (the German Blitzkrieg had hit a bottleneck). It was reported and the French and British commands wouldn't believe it. WW2 (Europe) could have been ended right there and then with one bombing run.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> All the Vaccinate should quarantine to protect the Unvaxx’d….is that how you want it to work?  The majority take action to protect the vulnerable minority?


A little 8th-grade arithmetic reveals that the unvaccinated are 4 to 10 times more likely to be infected than the vaccinated.  

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.


----------



## Ellejustus

I think we all see what is happening to anyone with a conservative thought process who owns a business or works at business that hates of conservatives or those who think like one a few times a day.  Anyone who thinks critically is being fired or kicked out of the game of pay per play.  I got out of this evil game and now I'm watching from above.  I hope people see what is truly going on.  People like Espolastein and The Husler and EOTL are trying to hold unto the past.  I call them the three headed Amigos.  If you think for self first or ask a question like Joe Rogan you will be kicked off platforms that is controlled by the people who want to control you and force you to get jab + boosters and wear a mask forever.  If you're against this way of life, you will be singled out and either fired or not allowed to advertise your business anymore and will get shut down.  Pay to play is going to lose but we have to see it all collapse.  Are you willing to walk away form life's riches and pleasures or will you do what Dr. Robert did and do what is RIGHT?



*Metaverse ((Facebook)) 'permanently' locks account of conservative children's book publisher*
*Heroes of Liberty publishes books about Amy Coney Barrett, Ronald Reagan and Thomas Sowell.  **"Low Quality or Disruptive Content" is what the Fact Checkers like Espola are saying.....*

"The question is: *is a children's biography of Ronald Reagan no longer permissible on Facebook? *We don’t know. But apparently promoting one may well kill a business," Heroes of Liberty editor and board member Bethany Mandel told FOX Business on Sunday.

"*We began investing in Facebook ((Metaverse now)) four months before we launched our first book*," she added. *"We* *invested most of our marketing budget on the platform,* and now *our budget (the money we’ve already spent), as well as our assets and data are gone *((just like a fart in the wind)).  Marketing-wise we are back in square one, financially it's even more challenging." 

"We are not in politics, *we are in the business of creating beautiful stories about great people* that will entertain children and give them life lessons," she said. "To cancel children's books because they celebrate American values that 90% of Americans believe in isn’t even anti-conservative bias, it's anti-American*. Pure madness."*


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Since we're doing the same statistically meaningless percent vaxxed vs unvaxxed thing with omicron as we did for delta (and who knows maybe even before that) what you want is somebody to go to the small amount of trouble to calculate an odds risk ratio (easy to do, but you need to look at the underlying numbers rather than % and that does not serve the interests of the actors cranking this stuff out).  Anyway, since I was looking at it last it last night on the UK covid site, here is the VE data for the UK vs. omicron.  This is more useful. The graphs are based on population-based data coming at what is likely to be near the peak of the UK omicron wave, so a reasonable point to look at it. Source linked below, see section 3 for methodology.  Since omicron presents with pretty mild syptoms in most people what i had hoped to find was anything about how much stimulation of antibody secretion accrues with omicron infection.  it may not be much, which would then shape the selection pressure acting on the virus on the backside of the wave.  So if anybody comes across something like CD4, CD8 T cell levels post-omicron, please post.



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1044481/Technical-Briefing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> died


Good catch on the date of death.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Is this accurate news headline?
> 
> *DENMARK: 90% Of Omicron Infections Found In 'Fully Vaccinated' Or 'Boosted' Individuals*


An infection count of vaccinated people doesn’t tell you much, unless you are a kleenex salesman.  Most of those cases are mild.

If you want to know whether the vaccine changes your odds of actually feeling sick, look at Evil Goalie’s chart.


----------



## Desert Hound

_For nearly two years, we’ve wondered how this will end. In retrospect, the clue is in how it began.

*The initial lockdowns had a strong class-based component. *The working classes were assigned the job of delivering groceries, tending to the sick, driving the trucks filled with goods, keeping the lights on, and keeping the fuel running. The professional class, among whom were the people who pushed lockdowns in the name of disease avoidance/suppression, *were assigned the job of staying home in their pajamas and staying safe.*

--

So it now seems obvious to me. This whole disaster would finally come to an end (or at least the end would begin) *when it became obvious that the great strategy of class division and demarcation would fail to protect the Zoom class from infection.*

That day has finally arrived, with cases soaring in many parts of the country and hitting everyone of every class, whether they are being “careful” and adhering to the “mitigation measures” or not. *What’s even more striking is how even the vaccines, which were supposed to codify the wisdom of class segregation, have not protected against infection.*

All of this seems to have taken place over the course of December 2021, with the arrival of the seemingly mild Omicron variant..........In other words, millions from among all classes of people are finally getting sick. *At this point, we seem to be seeing a big shift in attitudes.*

A person comes down with Covid, perhaps confirmed by the newly fashionable at-home tests. “Did you get vaccinated?” the person is invariably asked. The answer comes back: yes and boosted. *That’s when the chill happens. It appears that nothing can ultimately protect people from this. In which case, it is time we change our tune.*

“Thousands who ‘followed the rules’ are about to get covid. They shouldn’t be ashamed,” headlines the Washington Post.

--

So on the piece goes, *with a complete flip of the narrative they have long preached*: anyone who gets Covid has failed to comply, disregards of Fauci’s advice, probably lives in a Red state, rejects the science, and otherwise bears the mark of selfishness and the desire to put freedom ahead of public health.

Getting Covid has heretofore been part of a human stain, consistent with the very long history of demonization of the diseased and the attempt to attribute sickness to moral sin.









						The Zoom Class Gets Covid
					

Commentary For nearly two years, we’ve wondered how this will end. In retrospect, the clue is in how ...




					www.theepochtimes.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

We must accept COVID-19 as an endemic disease
					

Never mind how virulent the coronavirus is. The key point is that it is now endemic.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> An infection count of vaccinated people doesn’t tell you much, unless you are a kleenex salesman.  Most of those cases are mild.
> 
> If you want to know whether the vaccine changes your odds of actually feeling sick, look at Evil Goalie’s chart.


Cleaning up my desktop after a dive through what Cov-2 may have up its sleeve for 2022.  If you teach math, occurred to me you might find some of the simple proportion, rate, etc calculations in this paper as practical teaching examples.  Note that the final part of it on "how many replication cycles is required for the virus to sample all possible mutations" is sort of rendered under-powered by omicron.  With omicron its clear need to consider all possible combinations of mutations rather than individual changes at single base locations.  So that's ~ 3 x 10(16) unique combinations for the entire 30 kbp genome and ~ 1 x 10(13) for the S gene region.  Seems possible the replicative engine of omicron may have the drive to sample all those combinations, especially once it hits India and the pacific rim (going on 8 months out from Delta).  If we go from ~300 million reported cases globally now, where might that number stand by the end of the year?  Pretty amazing. 









						The total number and mass of SARS-CoV-2 virions
					

Knowing the absolute numbers of virions in an infection promotes better understanding of disease dynamics and response of the immune system. Here we use current knowledge on the concentrations of virions in infected individuals to estimate the total number and mass of SARS-CoV-2 virions in an...




					www.pnas.org


----------



## Grace T.

With the testing requirements to return to school, testing is completely collapsing here in the vc. The line at my kids school has never been worse (usually 50% test elsewhere but everyone is here because they couldn’t get a test elsewhere). I’m at an hour plus waiting right now. My friend is looking for an appointment since she covid exposed her kid and he needs to test before returning to school.  No county appointments available until next week, pharmacies and urgent cares booked out for days, they’ve closed the lines at the drive up sites.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Desert Hound said:


> We must accept COVID-19 as an endemic disease
> 
> 
> Never mind how virulent the coronavirus is. The key point is that it is now endemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


Sort of.  If endemic means "everywhere", then yes.  But if endemic means how an epidemiologist would look at it "the virus has come to a balance with us and we have come to a balance with it" then we got a long way to go.  I'd agree with you that from the human side a lot of people are just done.  But the virus isn't.


----------



## watfly

Right now I know far more people with Covid then cumulatively in the last two years.   All fully vaxxed and based on symptoms most appear to be Delta not Omicron, but that's speculation.

Testing is a nightmare here in San Diego.

Heard on the news 2700 schools are closed or 100% online.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Heard on the news 2700 schools are closed or 100% online.


I am a slow learner.

To recap.

- kids have essentially zero risk of covid as we know.
- we also know that the omicon version of covid is rather mild.
- that would imply there is even less risk to kids/adults. 

So the go to solution is to close schools?

Amazing


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I am a slow learner.
> 
> To recap.
> 
> - kids have essentially zero risk of covid as we know.
> - we also know that the omicon version of covid is rather mild.
> - that would imply there is even less risk to kids/adults.
> 
> So the go to solution is to close schools?
> 
> Amazing


A lot of it is being driven by the teachers' unions.  I'm not sure why teachers' get special treatment when we have people in food service working in person with much greater risk.  Apparently, teachers are not essential workers, I hope we remember that when their contracts come up for renewal.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Right now I know far more people with Covid then cumulatively in the last two years.   All fully vaxxed and based on symptoms most appear to be Delta not Omicron, but that's speculation.
> 
> Testing is a nightmare here in San Diego.
> 
> Heard on the news 2700 schools are closed or 100% online.


This is also my experience to date. Mild to medium flu sypmtoms for the ones getting sick. All vaccinated, and a few boostered. All basically the same sickness. Just waiting for my turn..... Inevitable is a decent word.


----------



## Desert Hound

And while people around the world freak out about omicron...here is the latest. 

A disconnect perhaps?


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> This is also my experience to date. Mild to medium flu sypmtoms for the ones getting sick. All vaccinated, and a few boostered. All basically the same sickness. Just waiting for my turn..... Inevitable is a decent word.


A few I know are pretty bad flu, one passed out and cracked his noggin...12 stitches.

Inevitable is probably the right word.  I'm not being reckless, still careful (which some may argue since I went to the Rose Bowl), but it seems regardless that the odds of me getting Covid are pretty good.  I never thought that previously.  The virus finds a way, more so than ever.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> An infection count of vaccinated people doesn’t tell you much, unless you are a kleenex salesman.  Most of those cases are mild.
> 
> If you want to know whether the vaccine changes your odds of actually feeling sick, look at Evil Goalie’s chart.


Am I reading it right that at 10 week the difference between double pfizer and pfizer boosted is 25%-45% against omicron?  Moderna substantially better?

If so, the policy implication from this is they really shouldn't be boosting young men (the gain is negligible and both seem to decline with time, though we don't know what the floor is for the pfizer booster yet) and elderly and immunocompromised should only be getting boosted with moderna (if they go a 4th for this group, it would seem to need to Moderna).  Also makes the FDA bypassing the expert panel on 12-15 year old boosters egregious.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> With the testing requirements to return to school, testing is completely collapsing here in the vc. The line at my kids school has never been worse (usually 50% test elsewhere but everyone is here because they couldn’t get a test elsewhere). I’m at an hour plus waiting right now. My friend is looking for an appointment since she covid exposed her kid and he needs to test before returning to school.  No county appointments available until next week, pharmacies and urgent cares booked out for days, they’ve closed the lines at the drive up sites.


Lines everywhere to take a test that no one can find.  I see so much fear I now have compassion and kindness towards all humans.


----------



## Grace T.

The t-cell portion of the equation.  Remember y'all when some (not necessarily here on the forum) were calling t-cells conspiracy theories?  Ahh 2020 we miss you already.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478113164533190657


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> I am a slow learner.
> 
> To recap.
> 
> - kids have essentially zero risk of covid as we know.
> - we also know that the omicon version of covid is rather mild.
> - that would imply there is even less risk to kids/adults.
> 
> So the go to solution is to close schools?
> 
> Amazing


It's not a solution Hound.  It's a move and the kids are the pawns.  It must become worse before it get's better.  It has to be this way because so many cheated.  Most people who support Joey still say one thing, "He's better then Trump."


----------



## Grace T.

Los Angeles testing situation is about to get a whole lot worse.....









						L.A. Unified orders COVID testing before school resumes amid high Omicron anxiety
					

Schools are reopening this week and next with families and employees nervous about health risks from the Omicron surge.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Los Angeles testing situation is about to get a whole lot worse.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L.A. Unified orders COVID testing before school resumes amid high Omicron anxiety
> 
> 
> Schools are reopening this week and next with families and employees nervous about health risks from the Omicron surge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


p.s. Eric Sondheimer of LA Times is reporting a handful of Los Angeles schools are pausing indoor sports.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Am I reading it right that at 10 week the difference between double pfizer and pfizer boosted is 25%-45% against omicron?  Moderna substantially better?
> 
> If so, the policy implication from this is they really shouldn't be boosting young men (the gain is negligible and both seem to decline with time, though we don't know what the floor is for the pfizer booster yet) and elderly and immunocompromised should only be getting boosted with moderna (if they go a 4th for this group, it would seem to need to Moderna).  Also makes the FDA bypassing the expert panel on 12-15 year old boosters egregious.


You are reading it right, but that’s the wrong chart.  That chart is for symptomatic infection.  Not really what you care most about.   

The data for hospitalization is what you need.  

Click on goalie’s link to UK data. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1044481/Technical-Briefing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf

Page 12.  It puts the booster at 88% effective against hospitalization.  

“These estimates suggest that vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with the Omicron variant is significantly lower than compared to the Delta variant and wanes rapidly. Nevertheless, protection against hospitalisation is much greater than that against symptomatic disease, in particular after a booster dose, where vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation is close to 90%.”


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are reading it right, but that’s the wrong chart.  That chart is for symptomatic infection.  Not really what you care most about.
> 
> The data for hospitalization is what you need.
> 
> Click on goalie’s link to UK data. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1044481/Technical-Briefing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf
> 
> Page 12.  It puts the booster at 88% effective against hospitalization.
> 
> “These estimates suggest that vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with the Omicron variant is significantly lower than compared to the Delta variant and wanes rapidly. Nevertheless, protection against hospitalisation is much greater than that against symptomatic disease, in particular after a booster dose, where vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation is close to 90%.”



No, what interests me is symptomatic infections (in part as a proxy for transmission), not hospitalization.  The risk for people under 30 to be hospitalized is minimal so that's not a huge deal.

On the other hand, old people hang around each other at nursing homes.  And any illness poses a risk to the elderly so they'd be better off in any circumstances doing whatever they can to avoid getting it (because even with vaccination, the age stratification of risk is just so different across the age bands).

For those who are vulnerable to hospitalizations even post vaxx, of course a booster makes sense (but if Moderna is better at preventing illness in the elderly/immunocompromised I'd think we'd want to preference that for the elderly).


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> An infection count of vaccinated people doesn’t tell you much, unless you are a kleenex salesman.  Most of those cases are mild.
> 
> If you want to know whether the vaccine changes your odds of actually feeling sick, look at Evil Goalie’s chart.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No, what interests me is symptomatic infections (in part as a proxy for transmission), not hospitalization.  The risk for people under 30 to be hospitalized is minimal so that's not a huge deal.
> 
> On the other hand, old people hang around each other at nursing homes.  And any illness poses a risk to the elderly so they'd be better off in any circumstances doing whatever they can to avoid getting it (because even with vaccination, the age stratification of risk is just so different across the age bands).
> 
> For those who are vulnerable to hospitalizations even post vaxx, of course a booster makes sense (but if Moderna is better at preventing illness in the elderly/immunocompromised I'd think we'd want to preference that for the elderly).


Symptomatic infection is a poor proxy for transmission, unless you are correcting for duration of transmissibility.

Without that correction, you significantly overstate the risk from any group which recovers quickly.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Symptomatic infection is a poor proxy for transmission, unless you are correcting for duration of transmissibility.
> 
> Without that correction, you significantly overstate the risk from any group which recovers quickly.


Agree, but for these purposes it's all we have.   "significantly" is a statement currently lacking evidence as several variables are at play including peak viral load, average viral load, incubation period, asymptomatic period, vaccine efficiency (one which we know is not good), and length of illness.  If the reduction is 7 to 5 days it won't make much of a difference.  Besides, the biggest problem for respiratory infections is at the beginning of the illness: sure there are assholes who go out sick deliberately because what they have to do is too important in their minds (and/or they think masks will protect people)....but the greatest danger is either at the beginning of the infection (when people have a tendency to think they might not be getting sick or have allergies or just convince themselves they are fine) and at the end of the infection (when people through medication or just fluctuations may have convinced themselves they are fine now)...not the middle (where they are generally in bed...except of course in hospital/nursing home settings hence my moderna concern).  Also remember a reduction from R10 to R 6 isn't as significant as a reduction from R4 to R1.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Agree, but for these purposes it's all we have.   "significantly" is a statement currently lacking evidence as several variables are at play including peak viral load, average viral load, incubation period, asymptomatic period, vaccine efficiency (one which we know is not good), and length of illness.  If the reduction is 7 to 5 days it won't make much of a difference.  Besides, the biggest problem for respiratory infections is at the beginning of the illness: sure there are assholes who go out sick deliberately because what they have to do is too important in their minds (and/or they think masks will protect people)....but the greatest danger is either at the beginning of the infection (when people have a tendency to think they might not be getting sick or have allergies or just convince themselves they are fine) and at the end of the infection (when people through medication or just fluctuations may have convinced themselves they are fine now)...not the middle (where they are generally in bed...except of course in hospital/nursing home settings hence my moderna concern).  Also remember a reduction from R10 to R 6 isn't as significant as a reduction from R4 to R1.


It isn’t “all we have”.

There are plenty of people studying the impact of vaccines on transmission.  Why not use those results?

Declaring the existence of a poor proxy, and using it anyway, makes no sense.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It isn’t “all we have”.
> 
> There are plenty of people studying the impact of vaccines on transmission.  Why not use those results?
> 
> Declaring the existence of a poor proxy, and using it anyway, makes no sense.


That isn’t in yet and in any case as I showed you the variables are tricky since there are multiple ones and you have to screen out for a ton of other factors including changes in human behavior

policy can’t wait for us to come to the “correct” exact number.  Sometimes, as captain sulley so famously pointed out, you have to eyeball it.  That’s what policy is all about (it’s messy not virtuous)


----------



## Grace T.

In honor of the new year, reflecting on the pandemic so far:

-member when they told us China had the problem well in hand and it likely wouldn’t be an issue here?  Member when trump told us not to worry about it in the state of the union?
-member when they said it wasn’t airborne? Then it wasn’t aerosolized?
-member when we all rushed out to buy water?
-member when they told us not to buy masks and then changed their minds?
-member when they told us it would be over in 2 weeks?
-member when they told us it was a conspiracy theory to say it was a lab leak?
-member when we were all wiping things down?
-member when they made us wear masks outdoors?
-member when they closed the beaches and trails?  Member when nobody cared if everyone got fat in lockdown?  Member when you couldn’t even sit down on a beach and had to pretend to exercise?
-member when they closed the schools?  Member when they told us they would reopen in the fall?   Member when they said they wouldn’t close schools again?
-member when they said it would be over by summer?
-member when they said seasonality wasn’t a thing?
-member when they were afraid the children would all die?
-member when they said hospitalized from Covid instead of with wasn’t a thing?
-member when they said medicines would be available shortly and before vaccines?  Member hdq?  Member ivermectin?
-member when they said it would be over once trump was defeated?
-member when they said inflation was transitory?
-member when they thought they could control the virus?
-member when they said it would be over when the elderly vaxxed?
-member when all the politicians told us to do one thing and did another?
-member when they didn’t want us to go to church but then the health experts said protests were ok?
-member when they said it would be over when everyone vaxxed?
-member when we thought herd immunity was a thing?  Member when the percentage kept moving up?
-member when Biden said he’d shut down the virus not the economy?
-member when we all thought cloth masks worked and were cool?
-member when we thought travel ban could keep the virus and variants out?
-member when they said it would be over by the 4th of July?
-member when they said the vaxxed couldn’t transmit it?
-member when they said the vaxxed didn’t need to mask then masked everyone up again?
-member when they said boosters would do the trick?  Member when we were only on 1 booster?
-member when everyone thought 2021 would be better than 2020?
-member when they paid everyone not to work and then we’re stunned when people didn’t want to work?
-member when they said it would be over when the children were vaxxed?
-member?  Good times. Good times.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> In honor of the new year, reflecting on the pandemic so far:
> 
> -member when they told us China had the problem well in hand and it likely wouldn’t be an issue here?  Member when trump told us not to worry about it in the state of the union?
> -member when they said it wasn’t airborne? Then it wasn’t aerosolized?
> -member when we all rushed out to buy water?
> -member when they told us not to buy masks and then changed their minds?
> -member when they told us it would be over in 2 weeks?
> -member when they told us it was a conspiracy theory to say it was a lab leak?
> -member when we were all wiping things down?
> -member when they made us wear masks outdoors?
> -member when they closed the beaches and trails?  Member when nobody cared if everyone got fat in lockdown?  Member when you couldn’t even sit down on a beach and had to pretend to exercise?
> -member when they closed the schools?  Member when they told us they would reopen in the fall?   Member when they said they wouldn’t close schools again?
> -member when they said it would be over by summer?
> -member when they said seasonality wasn’t a thing?
> -member when they were afraid the children would all die?
> -member when they said hospitalized from Covid instead of with wasn’t a thing?
> -member when they said medicines would be available shortly and before vaccines?  Member hdq?  Member ivermectin?
> -member when they said it would be over once trump was defeated?
> -member when they said inflation was transitory?
> -member when they thought they could control the virus?
> -member when they said it would be over when the elderly vaxxed?
> -member when all the politicians told us to do one thing and did another?
> -member when they didn’t want us to go to church but then the health experts said protests were ok?
> -member when they said it would be over when everyone vaxxed?
> -member when we thought herd immunity was a thing?  Member when the percentage kept moving up?
> -member when Biden said he’d shut down the virus not the economy?
> -member when we all thought cloth masks worked and were cool?
> -member when we thought travel ban could keep the virus and variants out?
> -member when they said it would be over by the 4th of July?
> -member when they said the vaxxed couldn’t transmit it?
> -member when they said the vaxxed didn’t need to mask then masked everyone up again?
> -member when they said boosters would do the trick?  Member when we were only on 1 booster?
> -member when everyone thought 2021 would be better than 2020?
> -member when they paid everyone not to work and then we’re stunned when people didn’t want to work?
> -member when they said it would be over when the children were vaxxed?
> -member?  Good times. Good times.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


>


“Oh Magoo old boy you’ve done it again!”  Note this isn’t an ad because under your definition I’m mostly commenting on the nature and history of your posts, not your character

stings doesn’t it seeing it all laid out?  How many were you…90%?  It’s more of a commentary of the general stupidity of it all (plenty of trumps in there…should have added “member when we all thought this was just the flu”).  I can’t help it though if the covidians have much more stupidity up there than anyone else.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> “Oh Magoo old boy you’ve done it again!”  Note this isn’t an ad because under your definition I’m mostly commenting on the nature and history of your posts, not your character
> 
> stings doesn’t it seeing it all laid out?  How many were you…90%?  It’s more of a commentary of the general stupidity of it all (plenty of trumps in there…should have added “member when we all thought this was just the flu”).  I can’t help it though if the covidians have much more stupidity up there than anyone else.


I'm still trying to figure out your t-cell post.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> It isn’t “all we have”.
> 
> There are plenty of people studying the impact of vaccines on transmission.  Why not use those results?
> 
> Declaring the existence of a poor proxy, and using it anyway, makes no sense.


Any studies being done to gauge transmission on those who have had Covid but have never been vaccinated?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm still trying to figure out your t-cell post.


----------



## Ellejustus

*"I got the two guys on to talk about what is happening to our children.  In particular, the psychological damage of these lockdowns, this mask use, the school policy, the bullying of children who are unvaccinated and the psychological damage is huge!!!" * Dr. Robert

My dd turned 18 this morning at 8:41am.  I am so proud of her you guys, you have no idea.  Karma is working out the way I knew it would and we see a light at the end of the tunnel.  First, she was *DENIED* entry to the United States Girls Soccer Development Academy League because she went to public High School and dared to play High School Soccer.  She was told if you do it, you will not be allowed entry into the USGDA and that was true.  Secondly, she and her old man were also warned to STFU or else be listed as a trouble maker and one who asks too many questions when things seem off.  Then the Plandemic came and she was robbed of her last two years of her life, as were all the other kids who live on the planet.  16-18 is glory years folks, no matter what Espola says.  Those years will not come back either and some adults on this planet will have some explaining to do.  Thirdly, no jab, no entry to soccer here in da states at the next level.  Talk about being locked out again. You can;t make this shit up and it's been tough on her, I won;t lie. The kid just wanted to play soccer matches.  However, we do our best as a family to be there for her.  Lastly, any parent raising a teenager these last few years knows it has been a big challenge for all involved. The Master Teachers of the Universe have been training many for the future of this planet and I now see it.  This is all been one big blessing of being disciplined from what the cheaters & liars have done to us and the kids and how to let Karma finish the rest off.  The Fearsome Foursome is alive and well and ready for another day.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Any studies being done to gauge transmission on those who have had Covid but have never been vaccinated?


Yes.  They do study second infections, including the probability that a reinfected person will then transmit.

The answer is not going to be that earlier variants make you immune to transmitting Omicron. South Africa already made that clear.  It probably just improves the odds, same as the vax.


----------



## MARsSPEED




----------



## MARsSPEED

So my DD and wife both have CoVid right now. DD is better after two days but really was never sick. Slight cough and a fever was all she got. My wife is on day 2 and in bed with more severe symptoms. For some reason I have not gotten sick yet and also tested negative.

Just so you know. I got the first two doses but no booster. My wife has the booster. My DD has the first two doses. This is reminiscent of a bad cold going around our household. My wife usually gets sicker than all of us.


----------



## Desert Hound

_Last year, the union claimed that the "push to reopen schools is rooted in sexism, racism, and misogyny." But studies have shown that black and Latino students have been disproportionately harmed by school closures.









						Chicago Teachers Prepare To Strike Over Return to Classroom - Washington Free Beacon
					

Chicago teachers are preparing to strike over what they say are unsafe working conditions caused by a spike in coronavirus cases.




					freebeacon.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12564


I swear when we look back on this time some years from now we will laugh and shake our heads much like we do when we see drawings of what they did in the past that were equally as ineffective.


----------



## Ellejustus

MARsSPEED said:


> So my DD and wife both have CoVid right now. DD is better after two days but really was never sick. Slight cough and a fever was all she got. My wife is on day 2 and in bed with more severe symptoms. For some reason I have not gotten sick yet and also tested negative.
> 
> Just so you know. I got the first two doses but no booster. My wife has the booster. My DD has the first two doses. This is reminiscent of a bad cold going around our household. My wife usually gets sicker than all of us.


All will go well for all us soon.  Thanks for sharing the truth about your family bro.  Were all in these together, jab or no jab.  I honestly do not care if you wear a mask to feel safer.  By the way Mars, what did you do when you turned 18?  I will share what I did if you share first.  Cool?  Anyone else want to share what they did on their 18th bday?


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

This is a step in the right direction but two years late.  So many of us on here so what was going on with "died with Covid" and "died because of covid."  We all know now that no kids died because they contacted the Covid and then just had a heart attack and died.  No way!!!  We do know of kids who got the jab and then died because of the jab or got Myocarditis or Bells Palsy and lost the use of half their face.  That is a fact.  It's good to see NY changing the story of the truth.  

*NY makes major adjustment to COVID hospitalization reporting during omicron surge*
Gov. Hochul says she wants to 'always be honest with New Yorkers about how bad this is'

"So we're looking at a critical moment, but we're going to start asking some questions. We talked about the hospitalizations. I have always wondered, we're looking at the hospitalizations of people testing positive in a hospital," Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul said Monday. "Is that person in the hospital because of COVID or did they show up there and are routinely tested and showing positive and they may have been asymptomatic or even just had the sniffles." 

"Someone is in a car accident, they go to the emergency room, they test positive for COVID while they're there. They're not there being treated for COVID." 
Hospitals must now clarify if patients with the virus came to the hospital due to symptoms of COVID or because of some other ailment.  

*((Remember this two years ago?  Car accident dude comes into ER on life support and dies in the hospital?  Then they tested him with the fake PCR test and dude was counted as a Covid death?  We all remember.  This is how folks lie to make buck and get what they want)).  

*


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yes.  They do study second infections, including the probability that a reinfected person will then transmit.
> 
> The answer is not going to be that earlier variants make you immune to transmitting Omicron. South Africa already made that clear.  It probably just improves the odds, same as the vax.


Thanks….


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I swear when we look back on this time some years from now we will laugh and shake our heads much like we do when we see drawings of what they did in the past that were equally as ineffective.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12567


Actually, the weird costume for plague doctors made sense back then.  It warned other people to stay away from those who go near the disease.


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> This is a step in the right direction but two years late.  So many of us on here so what was going on with "died with Covid" and "died because of covid."  We all know now that no kids died because they contacted the Covid and then just had a heart attack and died.  No way!!!  We do know of kids who got the jab and then died because of the jab or got Myocarditis or Bells Palsy and lost the use of half their face.  That is a fact.  It's good to see NY changing the story of the truth.
> 
> *NY makes major adjustment to COVID hospitalization reporting during omicron surge*
> Gov. Hochul says she wants to 'always be honest with New Yorkers about how bad this is'
> 
> "So we're looking at a critical moment, but we're going to start asking some questions. We talked about the hospitalizations. I have always wondered, we're looking at the hospitalizations of people testing positive in a hospital," Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul said Monday. "Is that person in the hospital because of COVID or did they show up there and are routinely tested and showing positive and they may have been asymptomatic or even just had the sniffles."
> 
> "Someone is in a car accident, they go to the emergency room, they test positive for COVID while they're there. They're not there being treated for COVID."
> Hospitals must now clarify if patients with the virus came to the hospital due to symptoms of COVID or because of some other ailment.
> 
> *((Remember this two years ago?  Car accident dude comes into ER on life support and dies in the hospital?  Then they tested him with the fake PCR test and dude was counted as a Covid death?  We all remember.  This is how folks lie to make buck and get what they want)).  *
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12568


Who would have ever thought that there is a meaningful difference with being hospitalized because of Covid versus with Covid?  What a wild concept.









						Anthony Fauci Downplays Child COVID Hospitalizations Hitting Record High
					

Fauci said there is a distinction between the number of children in hospital with the virus and those who are there "because of COVID."




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Who would have ever thought that there is a meaningful difference with being hospitalized because of Covid versus with Covid?  What a wild concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci Downplays Child COVID Hospitalizations Hitting Record High
> 
> 
> Fauci said there is a distinction between the number of children in hospital with the virus and those who are there "because of COVID."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


I remember someone on these forums thought it was a conspiracy theory and told us all we were full of s for believing this?

I remember the same individual challenged the notion that kids were struggling.









						No Way to Grow Up
					

For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I remember someone on these forums thought it was a conspiracy theory and told us all we were full of s for believing this?
> 
> I remember the same individual challenged the notion that kids were struggling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Way to Grow Up
> 
> 
> For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


You just don't understand, "things change", who could have ever predicted this?


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Who would have ever thought that there is a meaningful difference with being hospitalized because of Covid versus with Covid?  What a wild concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci Downplays Child COVID Hospitalizations Hitting Record High
> 
> 
> Fauci said there is a distinction between the number of children in hospital with the virus and those who are there "because of COVID."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


They flip so fast I can;t keep up.  My head is spinning backwards right now.  They flip and then they flop!!


----------



## Desert Hound

And the tide keeps on turning.

Suddenly people are realizing you have to live with it.





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> They flip so fast I can;t keep up.  My head is spinning backwards right now.  They flip and then they flop!!


Covid policy has been a circle jerk at a shit show inside a dumpster fire.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> And the tide keeps on turning.
> 
> Suddenly people are realizing you have to live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subscribe to read | Financial Times
> 
> 
> News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ft.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> I remember someone on these forums thought it was a conspiracy theory and told us all we were full of s for believing this?
> 
> I remember the same individual challenged the notion that kids were struggling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Way to Grow Up
> 
> 
> For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Can’t wait to hear @espola ’s retort to this one. But in all fairness, he doesn’t have young kids (according to him they are adults).  Which does make you wonder why he spends so much time interjecting his opinion on a YOUTH soccer forum.


----------



## espola

Partially filling a memory hole --









						The 1918 flu is even more relevant in 2022 thanks to omicron
					

Over the past two years, historians and analysts have compared the coronavirus to the...




					www.chron.com
				




In Denver, in late November 1918, an "amusement" lobby - businesses and leaders invested in keeping theaters, movie houses, pool halls and other public venues open - successfully pressured the mayor and public health officials to rescind and then revise a closure order. This, in turn, generated what the Rocky Mountain News called "almost indescribable confusion," followed by widespread public defiance of mask and other public health prescriptions. 

In San Francisco, where resistance was generally less successful than in Denver, there was significant buy-in for a second round of masking and public health mandates in early 1919 during a new surge. But opposition created an issue. An Anti-Mask League formed, and public defiance became more pronounced. Eventually anti-maskers and an improving epidemic situation combined to end the "masked" city's second round of mask and public health mandates.

The takeaway: Fatigue and removing mitigation methods made things worse. Public officials needed to safeguard the public good, even if that meant unpopular moves.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Can’t wait to hear @espola ’s retort to this one. But in all fairness, he doesn’t have young kids (according to him they are adults).  Which does make you wonder why he spends so much time interjecting his opinion on a YOUTH soccer forum.


Paywall, so no opinion on the article.

As for this being exclusively a YOUTH soccer forum, I disagree.  There are many threads about coaching, refereeing, college soccer, and pro/international soccer, not to mention the deliberately "off-topic" nature of the Off Topic subgroup.  I find those much more interesting than an argument about which elite league for girls is best.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Paywall, so no opinion on the article.
> 
> As for this being exclusively a YOUTH soccer forum, I disagree.  There are many threads about coaching, refereeing, college soccer, and pro/international soccer, not to mention the deliberately "off-topic" nature of the Off Topic subgroup.  I find those much more interesting than an argument about which elite league for girls is best.


So do you receive financial compensation for being a “troll” or is it just a hobby to keep you mentally busy during your retirement?


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Paywall, so no opinion on the article.
> 
> As for this being exclusively a YOUTH soccer forum, I disagree.  There are many threads about coaching, refereeing, college soccer, and pro/international soccer, not to mention the deliberately "off-topic" nature of the Off Topic subgroup.  I find those much more interesting than an argument about which elite league for girls is best.


...and you are posting all this in a thread labeled "Vaccine" in an ad-hoc Covid Forum off-topic subforum.  Are you really that dense?  Or just putting on an act for your team?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So do you receive financial compensation for being a “troll” or is it just a hobby to keep you mentally busy during your retirement?


I thought about asking Dominic for a cut based on my level of participation, but he wouldn't even give me a free upgrade.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Partially filling a memory hole --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1918 flu is even more relevant in 2022 thanks to omicron
> 
> 
> Over the past two years, historians and analysts have compared the coronavirus to the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chron.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Denver, in late November 1918, an "amusement" lobby - businesses and leaders invested in keeping theaters, movie houses, pool halls and other public venues open - successfully pressured the mayor and public health officials to rescind and then revise a closure order. This, in turn, generated what the Rocky Mountain News called "almost indescribable confusion," followed by widespread public defiance of mask and other public health prescriptions.
> 
> In San Francisco, where resistance was generally less successful than in Denver, there was significant buy-in for a second round of masking and public health mandates in early 1919 during a new surge. But opposition created an issue. An Anti-Mask League formed, and public defiance became more pronounced. Eventually anti-maskers and an improving epidemic situation combined to end the "masked" city's second round of mask and public health mandates.
> 
> The takeaway: Fatigue and removing mitigation methods made things worse. Public officials needed to safeguard the public good, even if that meant unpopular moves.



Despite searching on google, I have yet to find the "Ode to the Anti-Mask League".


espola said:


> Partially filling a memory hole --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1918 flu is even more relevant in 2022 thanks to omicron
> 
> 
> Over the past two years, historians and analysts have compared the coronavirus to the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chron.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Denver, in late November 1918, an "amusement" lobby - businesses and leaders invested in keeping theaters, movie houses, pool halls and other public venues open - successfully pressured the mayor and public health officials to rescind and then revise a closure order. This, in turn, generated what the Rocky Mountain News called "almost indescribable confusion," followed by widespread public defiance of mask and other public health prescriptions.
> 
> In San Francisco, where resistance was generally less successful than in Denver, there was significant buy-in for a second round of masking and public health mandates in early 1919 during a new surge. But opposition created an issue. An Anti-Mask League formed, and public defiance became more pronounced. Eventually anti-maskers and an improving epidemic situation combined to end the "masked" city's second round of mask and public health mandates.
> 
> The takeaway: Fatigue and removing mitigation methods made things worse. Public officials needed to safeguard the public good, even if that meant unpopular moves.


1. Your article partially answers the memory-hole issue: wartime censorship.
2. Your article points out part of the problem but then fails to address it: fatigue. The fatigue mentioned in 1919 was after less than a year of restrictions.  We are going on 2.  It just handwaives the issue away with a "suck it up and stop being selfish" message.
3. Your article points out part of the problem comparing 1919 to now: the virus whipped through vulnerable populations and became endemic.  One of the things our measures might have done is just postponed certain deaths.  The true measure of what we saved would be people who are vaccinated and whose lives were otherwise spared because of the vaccine but that's not, as dad 4 blithely like to claim, everyone who died of corona.
4. This is democracy.  The public has some input on the cost/benefit of measures.  Public officials in a democracy don't get to ignore those preferences because they think they know better.  When they do, as Virginia pointed out, there are consequences.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I thought about asking Dominic for a cut based on my level of participation, but he wouldn't even give me a free upgrade.


You would have to do more than say....LINK?

You know...actually contribute something. 

A good start would be to actually take a position on something. 

Try it sometime.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Despite searching on google, I have yet to find the "Ode to the Anti-Mask League".
> 
> 
> 1. Your article partially answers the memory-hole issue: wartime censorship.
> 2. Your article points out part of the problem but then fails to address it: fatigue. The fatigue mentioned in 1919 was after less than a year of restrictions.  We are going on 2.  It just handwaives the issue away with a "suck it up and stop being selfish" message.
> 3. Your article points out part of the problem comparing 1919 to now: the virus whipped through vulnerable populations and became endemic.  One of the things our measures might have done is just postponed certain deaths.  The true measure of what we saved would be people who are vaccinated and whose lives were otherwise spared because of the vaccine but that's not, as dad 4 blithely like to claim, everyone who died of corona.
> 4. This is democracy.  The public has some input on the cost/benefit of measures.  Public officials in a democracy don't get to ignore those preferences because they think they know better.  When they do, as Virginia pointed out, there are consequences.


Wartime censorship is why it was known as Spanish Flu, which I have known for at least 40 years.

You're more likely to have a successful Google search if you don't restrict yourself to looking for things you just made up.  For example --









						Anti-Mask League of San Francisco - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## N00B

We’ll this seems to have changed ‘updated’ recently.









						Definition of ANTI-VAXXER
					

a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination; especially : a parent who opposes having his or her child vaccinated —often used before another noun… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com
				




Guess you can control the conversation better when you redefine the words.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> You would have to do more than say....LINK?
> 
> You know...actually contribute something.
> 
> A good start would be to actually take a position on something.
> 
> Try it sometime.


And yet another strawman is successfully set on fire.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> *As for this being exclusively a YOUTH soccer forum, I disagree*.


You know what, this is the best take of the year so far for you Espola.  You seem like a human and not a weirdo.  Look, I know I came on here in my roll as crazy father who was pissed off that his kid got snubbed and pushed aside by the snobs and all those who had power and wanted her to influence their new league and not HSS.  She was bad for business for that failed league and I get that now.  The things people throw at you when you leave a club or question their integrity, is insane.  I had shit thrown in my face many times and I don;t like that.  I had threats thrown at my face as well as on this forum and I don't like that either and I won't put up with that anymore.  I put you on notice pal.  My dd was told under no circumstance could she play HSS at all if she wants her dream fulfilled.  What bastards!!!  I am being kind today too   Speak the truth folks before you get blocked, censored or worse......!!!!  These guys, dads, or whatever we call them really did a number on lots of kiddos.  Lying to a 13 year old girl with a dream is wrong and Karma coming.  I share all this Espola with hopes you stop ignoring ((censoring me and telling others I am on medication and I'm a moron and a stupid father)) me once and for all and debate me like a real man on the issues of today.  Happy New Years to you!!!


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> We’ll this seems to have changed ‘updated’ recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of ANTI-VAXXER
> 
> 
> a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination; especially : a parent who opposes having his or her child vaccinated —often used before another noun… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess you can control the conversation better when you redefine the words.


Dictionaries don't control the definitions of words, they document their usage.  This subtle change is consistent with what is happening in our culture.

Word etymologies can be an interesting topic.  Consider the history of the usage of words such as "silly" or "gay".









						silly | Etymology, origin and meaning of silly by etymonline
					

SILLY Meaning: "happy, fortuitous, prosperous" (related to sæl "happiness"), from Proto-Germanic *sæligas (source also… See definitions of silly.




					www.etymonline.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Wartime censorship is why it was known as Spanish Flu, which I have known for at least 40 years.
> 
> You're more likely to have a successful Google search if you don't restrict yourself to looking for things you just made up.  For example --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Mask League of San Francisco - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


As usual, you don't understand the point.  There are no great poems about the 1919 pandemic, unlike WWI.  There are no great novels.  There are no great films (though there is an episode of Downton Abbey).  There are no great works of art.  In comparison to WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s and even Prohibition, it was not in the public consciousness (these article are a new phenomena resulting from corona).  In the 1930s it was even less in the public consciousness than measles and/or polio, both of which were referenced in novels, films and even cartoons of the time (my older brother went through a phase when he was very little yelling out "measles, measles!" from a WB cartoon).

Wonder why?  Wonder if this one will too?  On the one hand, for example, movies and TV (which are set to be contemporaneous) like Cobra Kai are ignoring the pandemic and filming as if things were 2019 (though South Park did address it).  On the other hand, it's gone on longer than the Spanish Flu and is linked in part to Trump.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> You would have to do more than say....LINK?
> 
> You know...actually contribute something.
> 
> A good start would be to actually take a position on something.
> 
> Try it sometime.


Look Hound, he has some us under our skin because were responding to his takes and he is getting views big time.  Dude won;;t speak to me ever again and I still talk to him and he pisses me off with how he ended up.  I thought he was going to be a Sage for me but no, he only cares for himself. He does not like kids and had a very troubled youth it looks like.  He doesnt want it better for the kids and that trips us all out.  The good news is 90% of our beautiful country feels the same we both do.  Put the kids first.  This had to happen to show us all the truth.  Espola is his true self.  I actually think this is helping us make a better planet, not being like this man and how he has no heart for the kids well being.  Espola represents a selfish type of man that had control of this place.  Not no more and thank God for his Light shinning.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> As usual, you don't understand the point.  There are no great poems about the 1919 pandemic, unlike WWI.  There are no great novels.  There are no great films (though there is an episode of Downton Abbey).  There are no great works of art.  In comparison to WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s and even Prohibition, it was not in the public consciousness (these article are a new phenomena resulting from corona).  In the 1930s it was even less in the public consciousness than measles and/or polio, both of which were referenced in novels, films and even cartoons of the time (my older brother went through a phase when he was very little yelling out "measles, measles!" from a WB cartoon).
> 
> Wonder why?  Wonder if this one will too?  On the one hand, for example, movies and TV (which are set to be contemporaneous) like Cobra Kai are ignoring the pandemic and filming as if things were 2019 (though South Park did address it).  On the other hand, it's gone on longer than the Spanish Flu and is linked in part to Trump.


Not in the public consciousness?  I didn't know you were that old.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> As usual, you don't understand the point.  There are no great poems about the 1919 pandemic, unlike WWI.  There are no great novels.  There are no great films (though there is an episode of Downton Abbey).  There are no great works of art.  In comparison to WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s and even Prohibition, it was not in the public consciousness (these article are a new phenomena resulting from corona).  In the 1930s it was even less in the public consciousness than measles and/or polio, both of which were referenced in novels, films and even cartoons of the time (my older brother went through a phase when he was very little yelling out "measles, measles!" from a WB cartoon).
> 
> Wonder why?  Wonder if this one will too?  On the one hand, for example, movies and TV (which are set to be contemporaneous) like Cobra Kai are ignoring the pandemic and filming as if things were 2019 (though South Park did address it).  On the other hand, it's gone on longer than the Spanish Flu and is linked in part to Trump.


The title story "Pale Horse, Pale Rider" is about the relationship between a newspaper woman, Miranda, and a soldier, Adam, during the influenza epidemic of 1918. In the course of the narrative, Miranda becomes sick and delirious, but recovers, only to find that Adam has died of the disease, which he likely caught while tending to her. The story is set in Denver, Colorado. Porter herself lived for a time in Denver, where she wrote reviews for the Rocky Mountain News and was stricken with the influenza. The historian Alfred W. Crosby considered _Pale Horse, Pale Rider_ to be such an exceptional depiction of the suffering caused by the influenza that he dedicated his book about the 1918 epidemic to Porter. 









						Pale Horse, Pale Rider - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## espola

espola said:


> The title story "Pale Horse, Pale Rider" is about the relationship between a newspaper woman, Miranda, and a soldier, Adam, during the influenza epidemic of 1918. In the course of the narrative, Miranda becomes sick and delirious, but recovers, only to find that Adam has died of the disease, which he likely caught while tending to her. The story is set in Denver, Colorado. Porter herself lived for a time in Denver, where she wrote reviews for the Rocky Mountain News and was stricken with the influenza. The historian Alfred W. Crosby considered _Pale Horse, Pale Rider_ to be such an exceptional depiction of the suffering caused by the influenza that he dedicated his book about the 1918 epidemic to Porter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Horse, Pale Rider - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


*The Orphan Collector: A Heroic Novel of Survival During the 1918 Influenza Pandemic (Paperback)*




By Ellen Marie Wiseman
$16.99
Add to Wish List
On Our Shelves; Typically Ships in 1 - 2 Days
2 on hand, as of Jan 4 12:18pm
(FICTION PAPERBACK)
*DESCRIPTION*
*Instant New York Times Bestseller

From the internationally bestselling author of What She Left Behind comes a gripping and powerful tale of upheaval—a heartbreaking saga of resilience and hope perfect for fans of Beatriz Williams and Kristin Hannah—set in Philadelphia during the 1918 Spanish Flu outbreak—the deadly pandemic that went on to infect one-third of the world’s population…

“Readers will not be able to help making comparisons to the COVID-19 pandemic, and how little has changed since 1918. Wiseman has written a touching tale of loss, survival, and perseverance with some light fantastical elements. Highly recommended.” 
—Booklist*


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The title story "Pale Horse, Pale Rider" is about the relationship between a newspaper woman, Miranda, and a soldier, Adam, during the influenza epidemic of 1918. In the course of the narrative, Miranda becomes sick and delirious, but recovers, only to find that Adam has died of the disease, which he likely caught while tending to her. The story is set in Denver, Colorado. Porter herself lived for a time in Denver, where she wrote reviews for the Rocky Mountain News and was stricken with the influenza. The historian Alfred W. Crosby considered _Pale Horse, Pale Rider_ to be such an exceptional depiction of the suffering caused by the influenza that he dedicated his book about the 1918 epidemic to Porter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Horse, Pale Rider - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Not exactly a well known book or in the contemporary curriculum.  I can't see any reference where it was turned or attempted to be turned into a film either (particularly if it's such a great book)....unlike say All Quiet of the Western Front, Grapes of Wrath, the Godfather, or even For Whom the Bell Tolls


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Dictionaries don't control the definitions of words, they document their usage.  This subtle change is consistent with what is happening in our culture.


You got the point.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> *The Orphan Collector: A Heroic Novel of Survival During the 1918 Influenza Pandemic (Paperback)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Ellen Marie Wiseman
> $16.99
> Add to Wish List
> On Our Shelves; Typically Ships in 1 - 2 Days
> 2 on hand, as of Jan 4 12:18pm
> (FICTION PAPERBACK)
> *DESCRIPTION*
> *Instant New York Times Bestseller
> 
> From the internationally bestselling author of What She Left Behind comes a gripping and powerful tale of upheaval—a heartbreaking saga of resilience and hope perfect for fans of Beatriz Williams and Kristin Hannah—set in Philadelphia during the 1918 Spanish Flu outbreak—the deadly pandemic that went on to infect one-third of the world’s population…
> 
> “Readers will not be able to help making comparisons to the COVID-19 pandemic, and how little has changed since 1918. Wiseman has written a touching tale of loss, survival, and perseverance with some light fantastical elements. Highly recommended.”
> —Booklist*


You can't cite this one....it's interest (and possibly even publication) is due to COVID.  It even says it in the description here : "Readers will not be able to help making comparisons....."   Kinda having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to make your point.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> *The Orphan Collector: A Heroic Novel of Survival During the 1918 Influenza Pandemic (Paperback)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Ellen Marie Wiseman
> $16.99
> Add to Wish List
> On Our Shelves; Typically Ships in 1 - 2 Days
> 2 on hand, as of Jan 4 12:18pm
> (FICTION PAPERBACK)
> *DESCRIPTION*
> *Instant New York Times Bestseller
> 
> From the internationally bestselling author of What She Left Behind comes a gripping and powerful tale of upheaval—a heartbreaking saga of resilience and hope perfect for fans of Beatriz Williams and Kristin Hannah—set in Philadelphia during the 1918 Spanish Flu outbreak—the deadly pandemic that went on to infect one-third of the world’s population…
> 
> “Readers will not be able to help making comparisons to the COVID-19 pandemic, and how little has changed since 1918. Wiseman has written a touching tale of loss, survival, and perseverance with some light fantastical elements. Highly recommended.”
> —Booklist*











						The Spanish flu and the fiction literature
					

This review focuses on the fictional literature in which the Spanish flu is represented either as an anecdotal or as a historical aspect and the effect on the author or fictional character. We examine this sociocultural period in the press and mainly ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You can't cite this one....it's interest (and possibly even publication) is due to COVID.  It even says it in the description here : "Readers will not be able to help making comparisons....."   Kinda having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to make your point.


????


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Not exactly a well known book or in the contemporary curriculum.  I can't see any reference where it was turned or attempted to be turned into a film either (particularly if it's such a great book)....unlike say All Quiet of the Western Front, Grapes of Wrath, the Godfather, or even For Whom the Bell Tolls







__





						No true Scotsman - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The Spanish flu and the fiction literature
> 
> 
> This review focuses on the fictional literature in which the Spanish flu is represented either as an anecdotal or as a historical aspect and the effect on the author or fictional character. We examine this sociocultural period in the press and mainly ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


You are digging yourself deeper into the hole and proving my point.  The best known references on that list are Hemingway (bullfighting), Wolfe (an essay on illness) and Cristie (to which the flu is incidental).  The biggest contemporary reference I can recall is Downton Abbey (in which the flu is the primary mechanism by which Lady Mary and Matthew Crawley finally get together)


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No true Scotsman - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


This isn't a no true scotsman.  You are citing poor references in comparison to the great works on the other side.  The list you produced is laughable to prove the point and in fact proves the opposite.  You are painting yourself deeper into the corner.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow CNN....the panic porn news network...is even coming around if they dare published even 5% of the team reality stuff.....









						'We can't vaccinate the planet every six months,' says Oxford vaccine scientist
					

A leading expert who helped create the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine said Tuesday that giving everyone in the world booster shots multiple times a year is not feasible.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

N00B said:


> We’ll this seems to have changed ‘updated’ recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of ANTI-VAXXER
> 
> 
> a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination; especially : a parent who opposes having his or her child vaccinated —often used before another noun… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess you can control the conversation better when you redefine the words.


Also changed the definition of Vaccine since the newest doesn’t provide immunity to the disease it is intended for.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This isn't a no true scotsman.  You are citing poor references in comparison to the great works on the other side.  The list you produced is laughable to prove the point and in fact proves the opposite.  You are painting yourself deeper into the corner.


I looks like you are deeply infected with the "no true Scotsman" disorder since you are even applying it in your rebuttals.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Also changed the definition of Vaccine since the newest doesn’t provide immunity to the disease it is intended for.


What was the old definition?


----------



## watfly

This thread has gone on a lot of tangents, but I never thought it would turn into Oprah's Book Club.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> I looks like you are deeply infected with the "no true Scotsman" disorder since you are even applying it in your rebuttals.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> What was the old definition?


Look it up…..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> A lot of it is being driven by the teachers' unions.  I'm not sure why teachers' get special treatment when we have people in food service working in person with much greater risk.  Apparently, teachers are not essential workers, I hope we remember that when their contracts come up for renewal.





MARsSPEED said:


> So my DD and wife both have CoVid right now. DD is better after two days but really was never sick. Slight cough and a fever was all she got. My wife is on day 2 and in bed with more severe symptoms. For some reason I have not gotten sick yet and also tested negative.
> 
> Just so you know. I got the first two doses but no booster. My wife has the booster. My DD has the first two doses. This is reminiscent of a bad cold going around our household. My wife usually gets sicker than all of us.


Everyone around me is positive except me. No one more than the sniffles, headache slight cough. All vaxxed with boosters. 83 year old mother in law same symptoms. Testing is a pain.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *No one more than the sniffles, headache slight cough*.


At my house we call it the flu.  Be safe and wear a mask Husker.  Happy New Years!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Novel concept:


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Look it up…..


I found this --









						Fact check: Missing context in claim that Merriam-Webster changed 'vaccine' definition
					

Merriam-Webster changed "immunity" to "immune response" in its definition of "vaccine" to be more scientifically accurate, the dictionary said.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Paywall, so no opinion on the article.
> 
> As for this being exclusively a YOUTH soccer forum, I disagree.  There are many threads about coaching, refereeing, college soccer, and pro/international soccer, not to mention the deliberately "off-topic" nature of the Off Topic subgroup.  I find those much more interesting than an argument about which elite league for girls is best.


C’mon Ref was always my fav! JAP was a riot!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What was the old definition?


As usual, you are misusing the definition.  The question poses a direct comparison between the value of set x and the value of set y.  The list you produced is laughable and in fact proves the opposite of your point.  Because you are having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to make your point (e.g., a short story which few people heard about and wasn't turned into a film, a contemporary book published during the pandemic, and some books primarily about other subjects or relatively obscure).  I gave you the best known use so far: Downton Abbey (which in the series BTW the incident itself is memory holed and goes unmentioned again until the final film)


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> C’mon Ref was always my fav! JAP was a riot!


He couldn't keep track of his own lies.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> As usual, you are misusing the definition.  The question poses a direct comparison between the value of set x and the value of set y.  The list you produced is laughable and in fact proves the opposite of your point.  Because you are having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to make your point (e.g., a short story which few people heard about and wasn't turned into a film, a contemporary book published during the pandemic, and some books primarily about other subjects or relatively obscure).  I gave you the best known use so far: Downton Abbey (which in the series BTW the incident itself is memory holed and goes unmentioned again until the final film)


I don't know what that has to do with the definition of "vaccine".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Not exactly a well known book or in the contemporary curriculum.  I can't see any reference where it was turned or attempted to be turned into a film either (particularly if it's such a great book)....unlike say All Quiet of the Western Front, Grapes of Wrath, the Godfather, or even For Whom the Bell Tolls


You just want to whine (in lieu of a more sexist term).


----------



## Desert Hound

Now they are coming around to admitting what half of us knew all along.

Just because you test positive for covid in the hospital is very different from being in the hospital due to covid.

Fauci, politicians and the press have been for 2 yrs deliberately not making the distinction.









						Fauci ADMITS Child COVID Hospitalization Numbers Are Overblown
					

There's a big difference between hospitalizations *with* COVID and hospitalizations *due to* COVID




					rumble.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Now they are coming around to admitting what half of us knew all along.
> 
> Just because you test positive for covid in the hospital is very different from being in the hospital due to covid.
> 
> Fauci, politicians and the press have been for 2 yrs deliberately not making the distinction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci ADMITS Child COVID Hospitalization Numbers Are Overblown
> 
> 
> There's a big difference between hospitalizations *with* COVID and hospitalizations *due to* COVID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


Looks like you got your education the same place Grace did.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Now they are coming around to admitting what half of us knew all along.
> 
> Just because you test positive for covid in the hospital is very different from being in the hospital due to covid.
> 
> Fauci, politicians and the press have been for 2 yrs deliberately not making the distinction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci ADMITS Child COVID Hospitalization Numbers Are Overblown
> 
> 
> There's a big difference between hospitalizations *with* COVID and hospitalizations *due to* COVID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


Using fake death reports to stroke fear because you hate a man and what some of his followers stand for is going to be dealt with big time.  The truth will be out for all to see.  They are in the process of collecting everyone's wealth who cheated and lied because.  They have it all to take but they want to take it through the legal military process.  I hear it's so much we will all have a very nice UBI and new health care for the rest of our lives on earth. We will flip and then flop illness into wellness.  It will be magical for those who live by love & light


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Looks like you got your education the same place Grace did.


Haha.  You just gave Desert Hound probably the biggest compliment he could get, at least as far as establishment elites would be concerned.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Haha.  You just gave Desert Hound probably the biggest compliment he could get, at least as far as establishment elites would be concerned.


I was thinking this thought as well.  Old Hound dog going Elitist on Espola......lol


----------



## Grace T.

Ventura County just arranged a free give away of tests.  Yesterday they gave away all tests they had within a half hour.  Today they had to close the free test distribution before it began because the crush of people was creating hazardous traffic conditions.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You just want to whine (in lieu of a more sexist term).


And you just troll....see how that works, buddy?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't know what that has to do with the definition of "vaccine".


Scotsman.  As usual, you are confused.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Ventura County just arranged a free give away of tests.  Yesterday they gave away all tests they had within a half hour.  Today they had to close the free test distribution before it began because the crush of people was creating hazardous traffic conditions.


Well if they weren't forcing perfectly healthy kids to get tested, there would probably be plenty of tests to go around for actually symptomatic kids and adults.


----------



## Ellejustus

At least their not in line for the jab.  They need a negative test to go to school or go to work without issue.  I saw the biggest line Sunday morning in Riverside for a free test.  it's not really free if you wait in line for hours.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Now they are coming around to admitting what half of us knew all along.
> 
> Just because you test positive for covid in the hospital is very different from being in the hospital due to covid.
> 
> Fauci, politicians and the press have been for 2 yrs deliberately not making the distinction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci ADMITS Child COVID Hospitalization Numbers Are Overblown
> 
> 
> There's a big difference between hospitalizations *with* COVID and hospitalizations *due to* COVID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


It's almost as though there is some kind of difference between today's covid and the original covid.

You know, like maybe one version has a lower case spike and more severe symptoms.

But the other had a very high case spike but relatively mild symptoms.   

If that were true, the later version would create enough mildly symptomatic cases to mess with the data, even though the first did not.

The really should look into that.  Maybe give each version it's own name so dumbfucks don't get them confused.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Well if they weren't forcing perfectly healthy kids to get tested, there would probably be plenty of tests to go around for actually symptomatic kids and adults.


Is there demonstrable value to testing those who don't have symptoms?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It's almost as though there is some kind of difference between today's covid and the original covid.
> 
> You know, like maybe one version has a lower case spike and more severe symptoms.
> 
> But the other had a very high case spike but relatively mild symptoms.
> 
> If that were true, the later version would create enough mildly symptomatic cases to mess with the data, even though the first did not.
> 
> The really should look into that.  Maybe give each version it's own name so dumbfucks don't get them confused.


You are missing the point. It would have been as easy initially to make the distinction between being hospitalized with COVID or being hospitalized because of COVID. Why now? This isn't how trust is built but that ship has likely already sailed.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It's almost as though there is some kind of difference between today's covid and the original covid.
> 
> You know, like maybe one version has a lower case spike and more severe symptoms.
> 
> But the other had a very high case spike but relatively mild symptoms.
> 
> If that were true, the later version would create enough mildly symptomatic cases to mess with the data, even though the first did not.
> 
> The really should look into that.  Maybe give each version it's own name so dumbfucks don't get them confused.




1. We posted evidence that this was happening previously in this forum long before the omicron, including people dying from accidents being marked as COVID.
2. We posted jurisdictions previously having reviewed this as well, and lowering their numbers as a result.  Some were better than others which didn't bother to do this.
3. For you to believe your own rationalization, you'd have to believe that now they are marking people in the hospitalization numbers because they test positive while giving birth, being treated for an accident, or undergoing some other treatment, but with previous versions everyone who went into the hospital went in for a serious case and there weren't these incidentals.  Wow!

That's some seriously mind bending pieces of mental gymnastics right there.  There really isn't any length of rationalization you won't go to in order to protect your priors.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is there demonstrable value to testing those who don't have symptoms?


Maybe in some settings like nursing homes and hospitals where vulnerable people are gathered???


----------



## Grace T.

Oooops!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478389727447461890


----------



## Ellejustus

Dr. Robert on Dr. Fauci.  "It’s Tony. What can I say? *Tony has no integrity.  He lies all of the time.* And me and my peers have been watching this for decades. We just shrug our shoulders and shake our heads and say *it’s Fauci.”*


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> You are missing the point. It would have been as easy initially to make the distinction between being hospitalized with COVID or being hospitalized because of COVID. Why now? This isn't how trust is built but that ship has likely already sailed.


Why now?  Because we _*now*_ have a large population of patients who test positive but are not medically impacted.  Back _*then*_, we did not.

I am not convinced there ever was a way to keep your trust.  One group was going to tell you that you needed to wear a mask, skip restaurants, and meet only outside.  The other group was telling you that it’s all a scam and you can do whatever you like.  

No real surprise you preferred group two.  The second group was telling you what you wanted to hear.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Because we _*now*_ have a large population of patients who test positive but are not medically impacted.  Back _*then*_, we did not.


Wow!!!  All cases were serious???  All cases admitted to the hospital were because they needed serious medical care?  No one just positive because they were giving birth?

So, then asymptomatic spread wasn't a thing????   If so, WHY THE HELL DID THEY TELL US WE NEEDED TO WEAR MASKS BECAUSE OF ASYMPTOMATIC SPREAD?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. We posted evidence that this was happening previously in this forum long before the omicron, including people dying from accidents being marked as COVID.
> 2. We posted jurisdictions previously having reviewed this as well, and lowering their numbers as a result.  Some were better than others which didn't bother to do this.
> 3. For you to believe your own rationalization, you'd have to believe that now they are marking people in the hospitalization numbers because they test positive while giving birth, being treated for an accident, or undergoing some other treatment, but with previous versions everyone who went into the hospital went in for a serious case and there weren't these incidentals.  Wow!
> 
> That's some seriously mind bending pieces of mental gymnastics right there.  There really isn't any length of rationalization you won't go to in order to protect your priors.


As usual, you started with half a fact with poor attribution ("my cousin told me") and constructed a grand conspiracy.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Why now?  Because we _*now*_ have a large population of patients who test positive but are not medically impacted.  Back _*then*_, we did not.
> 
> I am not convinced there ever was a way to keep your trust.  One group was going to tell you that you needed to wear a mask, skip restaurants, and meet only outside.  The other group was telling you that it’s all a scam and you can do whatever you like.
> 
> No real surprise you preferred group two.  The second group was telling you what you wanted to hear.


We've known since near the beginning of the pandemic that there has been a misidentification issue between died with Covid and died because of Covid.  Your "things change" rationalizations continue to miss the mark.









						Newsroom | Washington State Department of Health
					






					www.doh.wa.gov


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Scotsman.  As usual, you are confused.


As usual, you blame your inability to keep track of a thread on someone else.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> As usual, you started with half a fact with poor attribution ("my cousin told me") and constructed a grand conspiracy.


Nah....no grand conspiracy......if you'll recall the history of this I told you I suspected what was happening based on anecdotes and a few pieces of anecdotal evidence, you said there was no evidence, evidence began to roll in, eventually the health authorities like Fauci even agreed, I laughed at you as you stubbornly refuse to admit you were wrong and I was right (again!), and now I'm continuing to laugh at you for the egg on your face.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> And you just troll....see how that works, buddy?


As usual, you avoid responding to a telling point by calling it trolling.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> As usual, you avoid responding to a telling point by calling it trolling.


As usual, you respond with comedy and I laugh at you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Haha.  You just gave Desert Hound probably the biggest compliment he could get, at least as far as establishment elites would be concerned.


As usual, you lean on the high-class education credential despite everyone being able to see the result.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> As usual, you lean on the high-class education credential despite everyone being able to see the result.


As usual, you miss the point that your attack on Desert Hound made no sense in light of my high-class education credentials (s plural).  It places you in the bind of having inadvertently given Hound a compliment (at least from an elitist credentialist point of view) or saying such credentialism doesn't/shouldn't matter.  Quite a little box you built for yourself.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> laugh at you for the egg on your face.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is there demonstrable value to testing those who don't have symptoms?


Maybe limited value, but there is far more value to test those with symptoms or with prolonged exposure.  Instead of making those wait in line for hours.

It's a prime example how FUBAR'd our Covid policies are.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Why now?  Because we _*now*_ have a large population of patients who test positive but are not medically impacted.  Back _*then*_, we did not.
> 
> I am not convinced there ever was a way to keep your trust.  One group was going to tell you that you needed to wear a mask, skip restaurants, and meet only outside.  The other group was telling you that it’s all a scam and you can do whatever you like.
> 
> No real surprise you preferred group two.  The second group was telling you what you wanted to hear.


A better argument than there's no with/for problem would have been if you had argued yes there's been an over count, and yes this was a problem, but that over count was skewed differently in previous waves.  For example, one SF ER doc whose tweets I follow currently estimates about 60% of admits are with COVID and 40% are for....in previous waves he estimated 50/50....original wild type during lockdowns 70% for/30% with (which would make sense because in lockdown hospitals were turning away non emergency cases).  But just like the cloth masks, you can't help letting in just a little bit of daylight for fear it will tumble down the entire edifice of faith.  You are like my religion teacher that I wrote about who lost it on the "if God created adam and eve, and Caine and Abel married, where did their wives come from" question.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Why now?  Because we _*now*_ have a large population of patients who test positive but are not medically impacted.  Back _*then*_, we did not.


And? It would have proved their point if they all were in because of COVID. I'm not arguing it isn't different now but any math person worth a damn understands that changing how data is collected also ruins any possibility of comparing the data across time. If it's a good idea now, it was a good idea then.



dad4 said:


> I am not convinced there ever was a way to keep your trust.  One group was going to tell you that you needed to wear a mask, skip restaurants, and meet only outside.  The other group was telling you that it’s all a scam and you can do whatever you like.


This is funny. I still wear a mask and continue to observe all local mandates wherever I happen to be. My trust isn't something anyone needs to worry about as far as COVID goes beyond how I vote. However, there are others out there as angry or angrier than you are. Our leaders didn't do a good job of keeping their trust.


----------



## espola

“I write this email knowing that many of you will think I’m crazy after reading it,” Bateman wrote in an email sent out early Tuesday morning. “I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people. It’s obvious now. It’s undeniable, yet no one is doing anything. Everyone is discounting their own judgement and dismissing their intuition.

“I believe the Jews are behind this.”









						Utah tech entrepreneur and GOP fundraiser calls COVID-19 vaccines an extermination plot by ‘the Jews’
					

Dave Bateman resigns from Entrata board in wake of antisemitic email.




					www.deseret.com
				




So now we have that to worry about.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Is there demonstrable value to testing those who don't have symptoms?


No


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> “I write this email knowing that many of you will think I’m crazy after reading it,” Bateman wrote in an email sent out early Tuesday morning. “I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people. It’s obvious now. It’s undeniable, yet no one is doing anything. Everyone is discounting their own judgement and dismissing their intuition.
> 
> “I believe the Jews are behind this.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Utah tech entrepreneur and GOP fundraiser calls COVID-19 vaccines an extermination plot by ‘the Jews’
> 
> 
> Dave Bateman resigns from Entrata board in wake of antisemitic email.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.deseret.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now we have that to worry about.


I think we would all agree that that is "bat shit" crazy type stuff, and wildly inappropriate.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> You are missing the point. It would have been as easy initially to make the distinction between being hospitalized with COVID or being hospitalized because of COVID. Why now? This isn't how trust is built but that ship has likely already sailed.


Trust has certainly left the station.  COVID designation also = $$$$.  $13K per per person admitted with covid, $39K per ventilator.  Now, likley not a ton of money was made (contrast that to the $$$ being poured down the pharma drain).  This could have easily caused the disease to appear deadlier than it actually is/was.  And yes, it's still a tragedy, but numbers mean something and painting it on the high side is not good.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I think we would all agree that that is "bat shit" crazy type stuff, and wildly inappropriate.


The Entrata FB page already has posters dumping on him.  But it's his company, and the company website entrata.com has nothing to say.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Trust has certainly left the station.  COVID designation also = $$$$.  $13K per per person admitted with covid, $39K per ventilator.  Now, likley not a ton of money was made (contrast that to the $$$ being poured down the pharma drain).  This could have easily caused the disease to appear deadlier than it actually is/was.  And yes, it's still a tragedy, but numbers mean something and painting it on the high side is not good.


Hospitals are required to keep patients with covid isolated from the general population, and additional PPE is required for those attending such patients.  That means extra costs.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> As usual, you miss the point that your attack on Desert Hound made no sense in light of my high-class education credentials (s plural).  It places you in the bind of having inadvertently given Hound a compliment (at least from an elitist credentialist point of view) or saying such credentialism doesn't/shouldn't matter.  Quite a little box you built for yourself.


And Aaron Rodgers has 2 years of education from Cal.  Sometimes you just can't tell how an alumnus is going to work out.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Hospitals are required to keep patients with covid isolated from the general population, and additional PPE is required for those attending such patients.  That means extra costs.


Yes, you are 100% correct.  It costs more to treat a covid patient.  Don't think that hospitals didn't take advantage of the system.  Hospitalists also run P&Ls.  This was an easy one to take advantage of, and they did.  Like I stated above, not a ton of money made but painted a picture that was likely innacurate but narrative approved.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> It's almost as though there is some kind of difference between today's covid and the original covid.
> 
> You know, like maybe one version has a lower case spike and more severe symptoms.
> 
> But the other had a very high case spike but relatively mild symptoms.
> 
> If that were true, the later version would create enough mildly symptomatic cases to mess with the data, even though the first did not.
> 
> The really should look into that.  Maybe give each version it's own name so dumbfucks don't get them confused.


Hard to argue with that . . . but then again, some must persist.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> As usual, you lean on the high-class education credential despite everyone being able to see the result.


50% of all graduates finished in the bottom half of their class.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And Aaron Rodgers has 2 years of education from Cal.  Sometimes you just can't tell how an alumnus is going to work out.


Weak...your answer to the box is an anecdote (which you don't tend to like) and a weak one, 2 years football player who didn't even finish.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> 50% of all graduates finished in the bottom half of their class.


Summa baby.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Yes, you are 100% correct.  It costs more to treat a covid patient.  Don't think that hospitals didn't take advantage of the system.  Hospitalists also run P&Ls.  This was an easy one to take advantage of, and they did.  Like I stated above, not a ton of money made but painted a picture that was likely innacurate but narrative approved.


“Hospitalists”?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Weak...your answer to the box is an anecdote (which you don't tend to like) and a weak one, 2 years football player who didn't even finish.


He had a better offer.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> He had a better offer.


You just argued against credentialism again   

As I said, quite a box you built for yourself.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You just argued against credentialism again
> 
> As I said, quite a box you built for yourself.


I guess if you make up a word you get to define it as well.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> A better argument than there's no with/for problem would have been if you had argued yes there's been an over count, and yes this was a problem, but that over count was skewed differently in previous waves.  For example, one SF ER doc whose tweets I follow currently estimates about 60% of admits are with COVID and 40% are for....in previous waves he estimated 50/50....original wild type during lockdowns 70% for/30% with (which would make sense because in lockdown hospitals were turning away non emergency cases).  _But just like the cloth masks, you can't help letting in just a little bit of daylight for fear it will tumble down the entire edifice of faith.  You are like my religion teacher that I wrote about who lost it on the "if God created adam and eve, and Caine and Abel married, where did their wives come from" question._


We already had this discussion.  There are instances of overcount, and there are instances of undercount.  But there was not any reason to believe that the net result was a large overcount.  If anything, the net result is most likely to have been an undercount, as evidenced by the uptick in overall deaths per capita.

That was a lot of irrelevant ad-hominem religion comments.  You wasted almost half of your words on it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You just argued against credentialism again
> 
> As I said, quite a box you built for yourself.


Credentials can be overrated.  You don’t want to rely on someone who repeatedly brings up her grades and test scores from 3 decades ago.


----------



## Ellejustus

Is this really going on you guys?  Is this next for our kids?









						Children in China wearing full Hazmat suits in schools.
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We already had this discussion.  There are instances of overcount, and there are instances of undercount.  But there was not any reason to believe that the net result was a large overcount.  If anything, the net result is most likely to have been an undercount, as evidenced by the uptick in overall deaths per capita.
> 
> That was a lot of irrelevant ad-hominem religion comments.  You wasted almost half of your words on it.


1. The overcount excess death has been largely explained at this point.  The NYT article on children for example and the opioids as well as medical events that went untreated.  I'm sure there is some overcount in deaths, but it's skewed towards the beginning of the pandemic, when testing wasn't as readily available.
2.  That has nothing to do though with the hospitalization overcount which is all overcount. 
3.  We've already had the discussion re ad-hominems.  Per the test espola set out, they aren't ads as they don't go to your character, only the nature of your arguments.  Therefore they have his blessing.
4. As the king of the subtle insults, your hypocrisy is showing.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> 1. The overcount excess death has been largely explained at this point.  The NYT article on children for example and the opioids as well as medical events that went untreated.  I'm sure there is some overcount in deaths, but it's skewed towards the beginning of the pandemic, when testing wasn't as readily available.
> 2.  That has nothing to do though with the hospitalization overcount which is all overcount.
> 3.  We've already had the discussion re ad-hominems.  Per the test espola set out, they aren't ads as they don't go to your character, only the nature of your arguments.  Therefore they have his blessing.
> 4. As the king of the subtle insults, your hypocrisy is showing.


Girls are killing themselves 51% more then before Covid.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Credentials can be overrated.  You don’t want to rely on someone who repeatedly brings up her grades and test scores from 3 decades ago.


Hey I'll take it!  Next time you make an appeal to expertise I'll be sure to throw "credential can be overrated" right back at you!

p.s. I'm loving this box that espola built.  My entire schtick is that credentialism is overrated.  Not only do I have espola but I have you agreeing!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I guess if you make up a word you get to define it as well.


cre·den·tial·ism
/krəˈden(t)SHəˌlizəm/

_noun_


belief in or reliance on academic or other formal qualifications as the best measure of a person's intelligence or ability to do a particular job.
"credentialism is to a large degree responsible for people assuming that they need a degree"


----------



## Grace T.

Masking has no costs!

p.s. the pivot away from cloth masks has made this problem worse.  Most higher grade masks aren't biodegradable and can cause serious ecological damage (e.g. floating in oceans)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478477549692878850


----------



## Grace T.

Note further N95s aren't recommended for young children (IIRC it's 8 at the youngest) and KN95s have been found to be worse than cloth if there are 3mm holes.  Surgicals present a similar problem.  Without fitting, there isn't really a practical way to mask very young children (as opposed to teens).









						Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
					

The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...



					aip.scitation.org


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Hospitalists”?


Yes, go look it up...should be on google.  Specifically I'm referring to hopitalists that have transitioned to running hospitals and have more skin in the game in terms of profit/loss.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hey I'll take it!  Next time you make an appeal to expertise I'll be sure to throw "credential can be overrated" right back at you!
> 
> p.s. I'm loving this box that espola built.  My entire schtick is that credentialism is overrated.  Not only do I have espola but I have you agreeing!


You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?

No.  

The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hey I'll take it!  Next time you make an appeal to expertise I'll be sure to throw "credential can be overrated" right back at you!
> 
> p.s. I'm loving this box that espola built.  My entire schtick is that credentialism is overrated.  Not only do I have espola but I have you agreeing!


With respect to credentials, I watched three people get fired from where I worked at the time who had credentials equivalent to mine but who couldn't do the work.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Note further N95s aren't recommended for young children (IIRC it's 8 at the youngest) and KN95s have been found to be worse than cloth if there are 3mm holes.  Surgicals present a similar problem.  Without fitting, there isn't really a practical way to mask very young children (as opposed to teens).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
> 
> 
> The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and b...
> 
> 
> 
> aip.scitation.org


masking young children is foolish.  Adults can barely wear their mask properly. Raise your hand if you've adjusted your mask in public at least 5 times in 5 minutes.  Or walked around and watched people wear them just below the nose while in close contact with someone else.  Never mind the plexiglass barriers that you talk around at (insert name of department/grocery store here).


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?
> 
> No.
> 
> The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.


I have a math/computer science degree, even though the details of my education are more in line with a physics or electrical engineering degree.  Even so, I found myself in need of re-education every couple of years as the technology ran away.  Those early '80s were a race to keep up -- by the time we finished a project, much of the technology was obsolete.  Then in the '90s, we were producing portable computers for the Army, so there was no shortage of funding (and a guaranteed market) to turn over CPU board designs twice a year.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

Rockford Saw It Coming
					

Defeat The Mandates Rally DC Jan. 23: https://DefeatTheMandatesDC.com James Garner: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001258 Donate And Support My Work: https://EarthNewspaper.com/Donate EarthNewspaper Daily Newsletter: https://EarthNewspaper.com/Subs…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus

We need Jim Rockford badly.  I used to watch him on Friday nights before my big AYSO games on Saturday mornings.  Rain or shine we were ready to play and Jim was a smart cat who knew things deeply.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?
> 
> No.
> 
> The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.


1. Your hypocrisy is showing again because you’ve discounted several experts with such credentials and experience you’ve dismissed as quacks. You also dismiss front line doctors with a lot more experience
2. Espolas insult to hound was based on general education and an oblique reference to literature, not science
3. You are backpedaling. Your words not mine: credentialism can be overrated.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> With respect to credentials, I watched three people get fired from where I worked at the time who had credentials equivalent to mine but who couldn't do the work.


Yup. Credentials can be overrated.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as *scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?*
> 
> No.
> 
> The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.


These days experience seems to be irrelevant.  Which side you row for appears to trump experience.  Academic scientists/MDs are usually bought and paid for by entities that don't really care about health outcomes.   It's a common phenomenom that's always occured outside the limelight.  oh how times have changed.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I guess if you make up a word you get to define it as well.


Just like making up a new definition for an existing word…..


----------



## Speed

dawson said:


> Any thoughts on whether Omicron surging cases ( although evidence so far indicates it has mild symptoms ) will impact High School soccer in the next few weeks?
> 
> And for those who will comment that this isn’t a major doomsday subject and I agree it isn’t, this is a soccer forum and I’m curious about the potential impact on HS soccer .


I have 2 kiddos playing DD and DS. Few cases on DD team, they are quarantining moving players on rosters and playing. Pasta parties continuing. DS continuing to play but all pasta parties canceled.


----------



## watfly

San Diego Unified School District shuts down all 'out of season' sports -
					

SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – The San Diego Unified School District has shut down all “extracurricular” and “out of season” sports immediately. KUSI’s Dan Plante was live from Scripps Ranch High School with reaction on this news from coaches and parents. Effective immediately, @SDSchools has shut down all...




					www.kusi.com


----------



## Speed

espola said:


> Why?


you should listen to it and come back with your thoughts and opinions of the information presented.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Why?


Is he not "credentialed" enough for you?  Appears that his peer group includes lord fauci.  Maybe his weakness is his lack of political skill?


----------



## espola

Speed said:


> you should listen to it and come back with your thoughts and opinions of the information presented.


I don't give assholes like Rogan anything, not even a listen.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I don't give assholes like Rogan anything, not even a listen.


Why does he offend you?  interesting.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I don't give assholes like Rogan anything, not even a listen.


I've been told he's one of the nicest guys around, especially to his fans.  Very charitable in fact.  I'm not a "fan" but he seems to have a balanced approach to issues, giving advocates on both sides a chance.  Besides, he's a self described liberal.  Sounds like you guys would get along.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Why does he offend you?  interesting.


He makes a living stirring up idiots with lies.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I've been told he's one of the nicest guys around, especially to his fans.  Very charitable in fact.  I'm not a "fan" but he seems to have a balanced approach to issues, giving advocates on both sides a chance.  Besides, he's a self described liberal.  Sounds like you guys would get along.


If that is so, then, I'm sure he would appreciate my position.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> San Diego Unified School District shuts down all 'out of season' sports -
> 
> 
> SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – The San Diego Unified School District has shut down all “extracurricular” and “out of season” sports immediately. KUSI’s Dan Plante was live from Scripps Ranch High School with reaction on this news from coaches and parents. Effective immediately, @SDSchools has shut down all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


I don't know what that means, but I do know that SDUSD schools played soccer games tonight.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't know what that means, but I do know that SDUSD schools played soccer games tonight.


Soccer is in season so it’s not covered by the ban. Things like Football (9v9), baseball, or volleyball are out of season so these teams cannot meet even though they do scrimmages  and tournies at this time of year and students can’t even use the gym.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> He makes a living stirring up idiots with lies.



coming from a guy who believes he is the most informed person on this forum


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> If that is so, then, I'm sure he would appreciate my position.


You should listen to his interview with Dr Gupta.  3hrs is a long time but it goes by fast and enlightening to all sides of this “debate”.


----------



## Grace T.

reading up on the Virginia freeway pileup with drivers stuck for hours with no way to get it. It started with 1/2 the Virginia dept of transportation (which includes the plow drivers) out sick (unclear if some claiming sick just to avoid working during holidays). Rain prior to the snow meant it couldn’t be pretreated. Bad weather met people driving back up to the Washington DC area post holiday (which basically shuts down during the holidays).  The Icey snowed over roads led to a few collisions snarling traffic. Some people abandoned their vehicles. The tow trucks were also affected by illnesses which made it hard to get them out to clear. Gov n also sort of checked out and youngkins admin isn’t in place yet so that got lost in the middle of the transition.  Feds out for the holidays so they couldn’t be called to help and unclear what they could do anyways.


----------



## Grace T.

Chicago teachers union has apparently voted to strike to force Chicago schools back to remote learning.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Chicago teachers union has apparently voted to strike to force Chicago schools back to remote learning.


----------



## Jar!23

Grace T. said:


> Chicago teachers union has apparently voted to strike to force Chicago schools back to remote learning.


From what I understand, the Chicago teachers union voted to switch to remote learning to try to force city officials to agree.  In response, city officials called off instruction altogether for Wednesday and said remote learning is not an option.  Basically the two sides are at a standoff to see which side will cave.  It’s an interesting battle to witness.


----------



## Brav520

Jar!23 said:


> From what I understand, the Chicago teachers union voted to switch to remote learning to try to force city officials to agree.  In response, city officials called off instruction altogether for Wednesday and said remote learning is not an option.  Basically the two sides are at a standoff to see which side will cave.  It’s an interesting battle to witness.


not a lot of support from what I’m seeing supporting the teachers Union position.Certainly aren’t getting it from anyone in the Biden admin


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You should listen to his interview with Dr Gupta.  3hrs is a long time but it goes by fast and enlightening to all sides of this “debate”.


Another sleazeball.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> We've already had the discussion re ad-hominems.  Per the test espola set out, they aren't ads as they don't go to your character, only the nature of your arguments.  Therefore they have his blessing.


Objection!

I don’t consent to the pseudo-‘grand poobah’ status for espola in regards to ad-hominems that don’t involve espola.

Otherwise we need to deal with his new credential.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.


Not a Renaissance man I assume…. That used to imply well rounded, but if Wittgenstein and ‘grand poobah’ espola agree that the meaning of words are relative to their use, than maybe the humanities are > stem when words define meaning.


----------



## N00B

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You should listen to his interview with Dr Gupta.  3hrs is a long time but it goes by fast and enlightening to all sides of this “debate”.


Lol.. is there a paywall?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> These days experience seems to be irrelevant.  Which side you row for appears to trump experience.  Academic scientists/MDs are usually bought and paid for by entities that don't really care about health outcomes.   It's a common phenomenom that's always occured outside the limelight.  oh how times have changed.


Do you then wonder why some 3% of scientists are climate change deniers? The ones on fossil fuel payrolls (although they know the truth).


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Another sleazeball.


Guess it takes one to know one……


----------



## Kicker 2.0

N00B said:


> Lol.. is there a paywall?


Free on Spotify


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Guess it takes one to know one……


One is left to assume you have your reasons for lashing out. Is there a reason you choose to be an asshole or is it natural?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> If that is so, then, I'm sure he would appreciate my position.


This may be your best take ever.  He would appreciate your position.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> He makes a living stirring up idiots with lies.


What lies?  Again, interesting take if you've never listened?  I'm assuming you are taking exception with the Dr. Malone interview.  Just curious as to what you think the lies are?  

But, it's  free country (for the most part) and you don't have to listen.  At least spotify gets the censorship piece right.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you then wonder why some 3% of scientists are climate change deniers? The ones on fossil fuel payrolls (although they know the truth).


Where did you get this 3% from? All scientists?  Climate peeps?  Who are these scientists?  Of course a "scientist" that works for Exxon, etc would lean pro-fossil fuel.  Besides, where would we be with the leaky vaccines if it wasn't for fossil fuels?  Probably without leaky vaccines.  Then what?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Another sleazeball.


Why is Gupta a sleazeball?  Pretty smart guy and practicing surgeon. What position has he taken that has rubbed you the wrong way?  Would you not let him work on your brain?


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> What lies?  Again, interesting take if you've never listened?  I'm assuming you are taking exception with the Dr. Malone interview.  Just curious as to what you think the lies are?
> 
> *But, it's  free country* (for the most part) and you don't have to listen.  At least spotify gets the censorship piece right.


The only free people are those who lie and cheat and play, "pay to play" with our lives.  Very people are free.  I dont think we ever had true freedom as individuals.  Example, I hated school but was forced to go.  I had no choice.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Weeks after Minnesota nurses warn of staffing crisis, Mayo Clinic fires 700 unvaccinated workers*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> What lies?  Again, interesting take if you've never listened?  I'm assuming you are taking exception with the Dr. Malone interview.  Just curious as to what you think the lies are?
> 
> But, it's  free country (for the most part) and you don't have to listen.  At least spotify gets the censorship piece right.


Joe Rogan’s podcast was never intended to be an accurate source of information – it was always a place for people to sit around, get intoxicated, and have an interesting conversation. 

The format of the _Joe Rogan Experience_ hasn’t really changed over the years, but the obscene amount of attention the podcast attracts has changed the context of those conversations; when millions of people are listening, it’s inevitable that some are going to take Rogan’s opinions, or that of his guests, very seriously indeed.

Rogan himself seems to swing between different political positions, depending on who he is speaking to, and is known for randomly repeating debunked conspiracy theories and making strange observations, often while incredibly stoned.









						Joe Rogan Apologizes For Spreading Misinformation
					

With a large platform, comes great responsibility.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Ellejustus

*The Seals win!!!  This will be for ALL Americans as well.  A great victory for freedom!!!*

*Biden showing 'religious hostility' toward SEALs at center of vax mandate suit: Attorney
'The COVID-19 pandemic provides the government no license to abrogate those freedoms,'** Bush-appointed Judge Reed O'Connor wrote in the injunction.*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Another sleazeball.


Are you confusing Gupta with Oz?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Where did you get this 3% from? All scientists?  Climate peeps?  Who are these scientists?  Of course a "scientist" that works for Exxon, etc would lean pro-fossil fuel.  Besides, where would we be with the leaky vaccines if it wasn't for fossil fuels?  Probably without leaky vaccines.  Then what?


Here, catch up and get back to me:





						Climate and Weather
					

Intellicast weather -- http://www.intellicast.com/ I like the current Doppler radar animated loops -- http://www.intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?animate=true And the Pacific satellite view -- http://www.intellicast.com/Storm/Hurricane/PacificSatellite.aspx  Local weather stations --...



					www.socalsoccer.com


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Joe Rogan’s podcast was never intended to be an accurate source of information – it was always a place for people to sit around, get intoxicated, and have an interesting conversation.
> 
> The format of the _Joe Rogan Experience_ hasn’t really changed over the years, but the obscene amount of attention the podcast attracts has changed the context of those conversations; when millions of people are listening, it’s inevitable that some are going to take Rogan’s opinions, or that of his guests, very seriously indeed.
> 
> Rogan himself seems to swing between different political positions, depending on who he is speaking to, and is known for randomly repeating debunked conspiracy theories and making strange observations, often while incredibly stoned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan Apologizes For Spreading Misinformation
> 
> 
> With a large platform, comes great responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


You are partially correct but it's funny how things evolve.  Seems like a fair share of his podcasts are with friends in industry.  Seems that he takes a different approach when having "credentialed" experts on his show to discuss what other people are afraid to tackle.  I personally find it refreshing but it rubs many people the wrong way.  To each his own I guess.  You don't have to listen but maybe you should. 

The fact that you had to reference an old article pretty much sums up how his podcast has evolved and will likley continue to evolve.  Kinda like the CDC guidance right?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> He makes a living stirring up idiots with lies.


So your jealous he gets paid for it?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Here, catch up and get back to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Climate and Weather
> 
> 
> Intellicast weather -- http://www.intellicast.com/ I like the current Doppler radar animated loops -- http://www.intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?animate=true And the Pacific satellite view -- http://www.intellicast.com/Storm/Hurricane/PacificSatellite.aspx  Local weather stations --...
> 
> 
> 
> www.socalsoccer.com


ha. you can keep your weather climate change stuff.  Of course the climate is changing, it always will.  It's the silliest argument on the planet. Will humans impact climate change..of course we will, we run the planet.  But you wouldn't have a vaccine in your arm without fossil fuels.  Get back to me when you have a solution for stuff made with fossil fuels.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> ha. you can keep your weather climate change stuff.  Of course the climate is changing, it always will.  It's the silliest argument on the planet. Will humans impact climate change..of course we will, we run the planet.  But you wouldn't have a vaccine in your arm without fossil fuels.  Get back to me when you have a solution for stuff made with fossil fuels.


Make it with biofuels.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> So your jealous he gets paid for it?


“you’re”, just saying! Lol!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> ha. you can keep your weather climate change stuff.  Of course the climate is changing, it always will.  It's the silliest argument on the planet. Will humans impact climate change..of course we will, we run the planet.  But you wouldn't have a vaccine in your arm without fossil fuels.  Get back to me when you have a solution for stuff made with fossil fuels.


Fossil fuels have been great but are detrimental to the environment and will eventually run out. Time to move on.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> What lies?  Again, interesting take if you've never listened?  I'm assuming you are taking exception with the Dr. Malone interview.  Just curious as to what you think the lies are?
> 
> But, it's  free country (for the most part) and you don't have to listen.  At least spotify gets the censorship piece right.











						What you learn after 350 hours of Joe Rogan
					

Chatting with Media Matters’ researcher dedicated to the job




					www.theverge.com


----------



## Ellejustus

*The Husler:* "Joe Rogan’s podcast was *never intended* to be an accurate source of information"

*EJ:*  "Oh really?  According to you? 

*The Husler:  *Are you on meds again?

*EJ:*  No I am not and never was on meds.  Dr. Robert Q & A session with Joe is being watched by the world Husler.  Dude's podcast is #1 in the world and everyone is watching it.  Yes, Twit is blocking him.  Amazing to see people getting fired for having a religious objection or a Conservative thought against the force jab.  Karma is coming!!!"

*The Husler:  "*Rogan himself *seems to swing between different political positions*, depending on who he is speaking to." 

*EJ:*  "Yes, this is why he is good to listen to.  You get all points of views and then you can decide.  Twitter took both of them off.  We all know wtf is going on and most of us see the truth.  You don't at all.  You have chosen.  We all can see the board now. 

*What-Happen:* I personally find it refreshing but it rubs many people the wrong way.  To each his own I guess.  You don't have to listen but maybe you should.

*The Husler:*  I only watch CNN and The Golden Girls

*EJ:*  "100% bro.  The Commies do not want another point of view.  The only point is their point and you best better do as told or you will get fired, mocked, kicked out, refused service and so much more.  This is Espola's neighborhood.  Golden Gate is the Warden and The Husler is the Guard.  Dad is the Dr. and he will take good care of you because he cares for the truth first and would never manipulate math to suit his itching ears and callous heart."


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> One is left to assume you have your reasons for lashing out. Is there a reason you choose to be an asshole or is it natural?


Again…takes one to know one…..but to answer your question, it comes naturally.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What you learn after 350 hours of Joe Rogan
> 
> 
> Chatting with Media Matters’ researcher dedicated to the job
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com


Yep read that one. A big talking blowhard who gets paid to babble, the media is full of them . . . always has since the first story tellers in a cave “embellished” a wee bit. Nothing new under the Sun. “No one ever knew!”


----------



## watfly

San Diego State to require booster shots for home basketball games
					

New policy goes into effect for Jan. 18 game against UNLV at Viejas Arena




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com


----------



## Brav520

Media Matters !!!!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yep read that one. A big talking blowhard who gets paid to babble, the media is full of them . . . always has since the first story tellers in a cave “embellished” a wee bit. Nothing new under the Sun. “No one ever knew!”


I find it interesting that Joe's last legitimate job was as a commentator for pro wrestling (and that's stretching the definition of "wrestling" a bit there).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> San Diego State to require booster shots for home basketball games
> 
> 
> New policy goes into effect for Jan. 18 game against UNLV at Viejas Arena
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


Do the anti-type get season tickets or are sports too secular for them? If they do then either refunds or court.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I find it interesting that Joe's last legitimate job was as a commentator for pro wrestling (and that's stretching the definition of "wrestling" a bit there).


Some people will do anything to avoid honest labor.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> I find it interesting that Joe's last legitimate job was as a commentator for pro wrestling (and that's stretching the definition of "wrestling" a bit there).


I find it interesting that FB and Twit all censored a sitting US President.  Let that sink in.  According to you and The Husler, the only real FACT CHECKERS work at FB and Twit and only they can decide what information is accurate.  Basically, were in a war like I always said.  Right now everyone is picking a side.  Once everyone picks, then the final battle will take place.  I fight with my mouth and that's it.  Espola, Husler, Dad, GG and many more sold their souls and sold us all out just for money and power.  It's so obvious, even Captain Obvious agrees with me.  Sold out our kids for their own good.  Losers they are and will not be able to walk down the street.  Cheaters!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do the* anti-type get season tickets or are sports too secular for them?* If they do then either refunds or court.


God Wins!!!


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What you learn after 350 hours of Joe Rogan
> 
> 
> Chatting with Media Matters’ researcher dedicated to the job
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com


Sounds like a completely unbiased article with plenty of context and proof around each accusation.  

Again, what lies were proven in this article?  A great example of reporting done without context.  But who cares really, if you don't like him, don't listen.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I find it interesting that Joe's last legitimate job was as a commentator for pro wrestling (and that's stretching the definition of "wrestling" a bit there).


Pro wrestling?  Now you've really established your credibility.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fossil fuels have been great but are detrimental to the environment and will eventually run out. Time to move on.


Move on to what?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Sounds like a completely unbiased article with plenty of context and proof around each accusation.
> 
> Again, what lies were proven in this article?  A great example of reporting done without context.  But who cares really, if you don't like him, don't listen.


You don't have to read very far in to get to "his lie about left-wing people starting wildfires in Oregon".


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Pro wrestling?  Now you've really established your credibility.


I'll concede this point to the expert in the field.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Why is Gupta a sleazeball? Pretty smart guy and practicing surgeon. What position has he taken that has rubbed you the wrong way? Would you not let him work on your brain?


Trying to get espola to actually stake out a position is as fruitless as the quest for the holy grail is.


----------



## Desert Hound

“An exacerbation of a chronic illness is not a Covid hospitalization. If a person with diabetes goes into diabetic ketoacidosis because of a viral infection, you treat the diabetic complication. Hospitals frequently see these complications in people with chronic conditions with influenza, pneumonia, and other acute illnesses. *This phenomenon is not unique to Covid. However, it seems everyone has forgotten*.”









						Doctors Finally Get Real About Covid Hospitalizations Amid Omicron Spike
					

Now that Dr. Fauci has made some much-needed admissions about Covid, other frontline doctors are chiming in to agree.




					pjmedia.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> reading up on the Virginia freeway pileup with drivers stuck for hours with no way to get it. It started with 1/2 the Virginia dept of transportation (which includes the plow drivers) out sick (unclear if some claiming sick just to avoid working during holidays). Rain prior to the snow meant it couldn’t be pretreated. Bad weather met people driving back up to the Washington DC area post holiday (which basically shuts down during the holidays).  The Icey snowed over roads led to a few collisions snarling traffic. Some people abandoned their vehicles. The tow trucks were also affected by illnesses which made it hard to get them out to clear. Gov n also sort of checked out and youngkins admin isn’t in place yet so that got lost in the middle of the transition.  Feds out for the holidays so they couldn’t be called to help and unclear what they could do anyways.


“‘We had absolutely no idea what we were going into,’ Catalano added. ‘You had all these fancy signs on the highway [saying], ‘Mask up, mask up’, ‘Save lives, mask up.’ Turn the signs on and say, ‘Turn around,’ you know, ‘50-mile backup,’ something.’”


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Sounds like a completely unbiased article with plenty of context and proof around each accusation.
> 
> Again, what lies were proven in this article?  A great example of reporting done without context.  But who cares really, if you don't like him, don't listen.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> You don't have to read very far in to get to "his lie about left-wing people starting wildfires in Oregon".


to which he quickly acknowledged his mistake and apologized for

Which is kinda rare , I don’t see a lot of self reflecting and apologies being done from the mainstream outlets that you get your information from


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> Objection!
> 
> I don’t consent to the pseudo-‘grand poobah’ status for espola in regards to ad-hominems that don’t involve espola.
> 
> Otherwise we need to deal with his new credential.


I think in our dialectic we’ve already established “credentialism is overrated”. We have a buy in not only from team reality (that has been arguing this for a while) but now from some key members of team panic. Which means experience is more important than ever!

I would argue that while dad4 and I certainly have the chops to sit on an expert advisory committee, when it comes to stuff like this, only one poster (he of the many names) is more qualified to serve as poo bah of the ads than Espola.


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> to which he quickly acknowledged his mistake and apologized for
> 
> Which is kinda rare , I don’t see a lot of self reflecting and apologies being done from the mainstream outlets that you get your information from


There is zero accountability and apologies in main stream media.  I've listened to a few of the Rogan podcasts where he has legit experts on.  He goes out of his way to fact check.  There is reason that people seem to trust the Rogans of the world (many other podcasts that buck the mainstream media these days) over the bought and paid for talking heads on TV.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Trying to get espola to actually stake out a position is as fruitless as the quest for the holy grail is.


I know, he's busy trying to figure out the google machine.


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> to which he quickly acknowledged his mistake and apologized for
> 
> Which is kinda rare , I don’t see a lot of self reflecting and apologies being done from the mainstream outlets that you get your information from


Excellent take Hound.  That's why the* callousness* of Espola, Dad, The Husler and EOTL is much worse then just hard hearts.  These trolls each have an assign demon working with them as well, moo!  They have NEVER admitted when they or their side was wrong because they hate first and then lie and cheat to win. They have never said sorry to anyone or asked for forgiveness because they have *no empathy*.  Cold Cold Hearts Hard Done By Them!!! They have *no empathy* towards others.  *0 ZERO empathy*.  No chemicals in their brain to feel for others.  They come from a certain bloodline as well and these types are just what they are, haters and use kids as pawns.  I will be as kind as I can be.  Psychopaths and Sociopaths have *zero care* or thought for others.  It's not their fault, they were born this way.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> I think in our dialectic we’ve already established “credentialism is overrated”. We have a buy in not only from team reality (that has been arguing this for a while) but now from some key members of team panic. *Which means experience is more important than ever!*
> 
> I would argue that while dad4 and I certainly have the chops to sit on an expert advisory committee, when it comes to stuff like this, only one poster (he of the many names) is more qualified to serve as poo bah of the ads than Espola.


----------



## Desert Hound

The news has always has a liberal slant to it. 

Over the past decade or so, it has gone from a slant to outright advocacy. 

This meme highlights that fact.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I think in our dialectic _*we’ve*_ already established “credentialism is overrated”. We have a buy in not only from team reality (that has been arguing this for a while) but now from some key members of team panic. Which means experience is more important than ever!
> 
> I would argue that while dad4 and I certainly have the chops to sit on an expert advisory committee, when it comes to stuff like this, only one poster (he of the many names) is more qualified to serve as poo bah of the ads than Espola.


That sentence only makes sense if you are using the royal “we”.  You may be dismissive of the people who have degrees and work experience in epidemiology.   I am not.

I am dismissive of people with degrees outside epidemiology, who then tout their humanities or surgery credential while pretending to understand viral population growth.  That is like me saying you should buy my poetry book because I have a degree in mathematics.


----------



## Grace T.

CIF cheer championships have been pushed to February.  30% of the schools had to withdraw due to COVID protocols.

Back to school night was interesting at my kids school. My guess is a 1/3 of the parents were demanding we shut down and go remote.  1/3 complaining about the new LA restrictions saying the school needs to say enough is enough.  Very vocal.  Lots of yelling.   If it had been in person that would have been interesting.


----------



## Grace T.

Uk showing no signs of leveling off yet.









						United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That sentence only makes sense if you are using the royal “we”.  You may be dismissive of the people who have degrees and work experience in epidemiology.   I am not.
> 
> I am dismissive of people with degrees outside epidemiology, who then tout their humanities or surgery credential while pretending to understand viral population growth.  That is like me saying you should buy my poetry book because I have a degree in mathematics.


Errr.....some of the best poets had no formal education.  My mother is a published poet back in the old country with no college, only a nursing, degree.  My 13 year old just had one picked up in a national mag despite not even having hit high school  For all I know you'd be great at poetry.  Despite your degree in mathematics, for example, you are one of the most worldclass preachers I've ever seen (J/K...it was too good to let pass   )

But that's fundamentally were we disagree.  I take experience wherever I find it...in my case, for example, is my training in logic (which BTW is 1/2 of the LSAT).  I'm also willing to embrace experts with degrees and experience that go against the establishment, while you dismiss them as quacks.  But in the end, paraphrasing your own words, credentialism while one factor, can be overrated.

p.s. if you are dismissive of people with degrees outside epidemiology, you must have hated the troika of Fauci, Redfield and Birx and wondered why they were running things.  Atlas himself wondered about it give his health policy credential


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Uk showing no signs of leveling off yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


Probably over the top in London, which is where the party started.  Click on 1m view for best resolution.



			https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=region&areaName=London


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Uk showing no signs of leveling off yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


We read that graph differently.

I see UK as past the inflection point.  Still growing, but more slowly now.  On course to peak at roughly 5x previous case peak.  (roughly 300K cases per day.)

Parts of the East Coast are also getting close to max.  Keep an eye on DC, NY, NJ the next 4-7 days.  I expect all three to bend concave down.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Credentials can be overrated.


TV scientists are like TV lawyers-that is where and to whom the credentials seem to matter most. For the people cranking out the data that others pontificate about on the TV the saying is "you are only as good as your next paper".  In some ways, if we are arguing about media experts, that means everything is going fine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> TV scientists are like TV lawyers-that is where and to whom the credentials seem to matter most. For the people cranking out the data that others pontificate about on the TV the saying is "you are only as good as your next paper".  In some ways, if we are arguing about media experts, that means everything is going fine.


Those who can do, those who can’t talk about it.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Those who can do, those who can’t talk about it.


Or teach it.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Pro wrestling?  Now you've really established your credibility.


I mean.....









						How Much Money Does UFC Pay Joe Rogan As A Salary?
					

You will be surprised that UFC commentator Joe Rogan makes more money than some of the UFC fighters, isn’t that amazing? This is a motivation for those that




					wayofmartialarts.com
				




GRIFT ON BROTHER!!!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> The t-cell portion of the equation.  Remember y'all when some (not necessarily here on the forum) were calling t-cells conspiracy theories?  Ahh 2020 we miss you already.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478113164533190657


OK, this is what I was trying to wade back to.  Thanks for digging that up.  T cell conspiracy theories? Weird.

This is one of a group of recent reports showing that the T cell repertoire that gets locked down in immune memory by vaccination responds robustly to omicron.  Its good news and completely consistent with earlier characterization of robust immune memory afforded by vaccines. 

The question I had was a bit different-does omicron, with it's milder symptoms, evoke a strong immune response, ie does it actually stimulate Ab production and proliferation of quiescent immune memory cells populations.  It might not, for example, if there wasn't really the clean up on aisle 5 associated with more virulent strains-omicron infection seems to kind of linger like a stubborn cold. To gauge the nature of the immune response you need to look at omicron convalescents.  And its a bit early to be getting that data, although I did find one preprint linked below.  The message from a detailed characterization of the immune response of two omicron convalescents is encouraging, albeit at this point a very small sample.  Despite relatively mild symptoms there was a strong adaptive immune response both in terms of elevating circulating antibodies and in stimulating anti-S directed cytotoxic and helper T cell populations.  Notably the antibodies produced now reacted with high affinity to omicron S, and additionally cross-reacted with S from earlier variants, including delta.  So that's also a good news story.



			https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.474218v1.full.pdf
		


If it holds up that most people who gets omicron mount a reasonably robust immune response, that may in turn shape the selective pressure on the virus on the backside of the wave. Back of the envelope say the absolutely mind blowing proliferative potential of omicron leads to a 10X increase in total cummulative case load around the globe in the first half of 2022.  The planet goes from 300 million cases to 3 billion.  If its true that most of those convalescents are reasonably resistant to re-infection for 6 months or so, there may be less advantage to being a fast replicator trying to out compete the rest of the swarm for immunologically accessible targets, which seems to have been the major selective pressure to date.  As the global population gets increasingly exposed the main selective pressure may change to circumvention of the immune response. Whether the virus can generate combinations that meet that demand will be an interesting question.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> I mean.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Much Money Does UFC Pay Joe Rogan As A Salary?
> 
> 
> You will be surprised that UFC commentator Joe Rogan makes more money than some of the UFC fighters, isn’t that amazing? This is a motivation for those that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wayofmartialarts.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GRIFT ON BROTHER!!!!!


The drama!  Most UFC fighters don't make a ton of money.  So yes, he makes more than some UFC fighters.  The article is quite silly.  UFC made Joe Rogan?  Like he appeared out of nowhere?  

Check out how much NFL broadcasters make.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Or teach it.


Unless you are a money bag at some big famous place beholden to sucking at the tit of think tanks, etc, most of those who can also have to teach.  And teaching helps keeps it real.  Here's my rule of thumb.  You want to claim to be a working scientist, can you diagnose your own plumbing problems and are you willing to fix them yourself?  Or have you become soft and lazy?  Want to see what soft and lazy looks like? Watch the experts on the TV.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> The drama!  Most UFC fighters don't make a ton of money.  So yes, he makes more than some UFC fighters.  The article is quite silly.  UFC made Joe Rogan?  Like he appeared out of nowhere?
> 
> Check out how much NFL broadcasters make.


He's a grifter -- plain and simple.  Just a guy trying to make a buck (a lot of them).  

And yes, I've seen his standup and his stints on Fear Factor.   

The left has grifters as well.  Just calling a spade a spade.


----------



## watfly

I'm not a Joe Rogan apologist, I've probably listened to a handful of his podcasts.  He is an entertainer and to his credit he gives a platform to people from both ends of the spectrum.  Alex Jones to Bernie Sanders for example.  This is unlike other traditional news or entertainment news programs that follow a strict narrative and when they do allow an opposing opinion to be voiced, the person voicing that opinion is usually outnumber 4 to 1 and their opinion basically gets quashed.

More power to him finding his own niche which is obviously appealing to many.  Its funny that some people resent his success.

It seems the most threatening thing to many people these days is an opposing opinion.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> He's a grifter -- plain and simple.  Just a guy trying to make a buck (a lot of them).
> 
> And yes, I've seen his standup and his stints on Fear Factor.
> 
> The left has grifters as well.  Just calling a spade a spade.


Call it what you want.  He's not trying to make a buck, he's made a buck or two.  

Funny that you use the term left, he's certainly a "leftie".  I woudn't consider him a right wing conservative... Anyway, doesn't really matter I guess. He's making a pretty penny, just like all opinion people in the media.  At least he's a legit black belt in jujitsu.   Not too many "grifters" can make that claim.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> More power to him finding his own niche which is obviously appealing to many.  Its funny that some people resent his success.
> 
> *It seems the most threatening thing to many people these days is an opposing opinion.*


This.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> He's a grifter -- plain and simple.  Just a guy trying to make a buck (a lot of them).
> 
> And yes, I've seen his standup and his stints on Fear Factor.
> 
> The left has grifters as well.  Just calling a spade a spade.


Why do you resent his success? What makes him a grifter?

Are you implying he is right wing?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Why do you resent his success? What makes him a grifter?
> 
> Are you implying he is right wing?


I only made the "left" comment to emphasize grifting happens across the spectrum. 

I don't resent his success.  Good on him for making a buck.  But it's a grift.  People are buying what he's selling....and he knows what sells.   Not unlike Howard Stern and all the other podcast/radio hosts.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Call it what you want.  He's not trying to make a buck, he's made a buck or two.
> 
> Funny that you use the term left, he's certainly a "leftie".  I woudn't consider him a right wing conservative... Anyway, doesn't really matter I guess. He's making a pretty penny, just like all opinion people in the media.  At least he's a legit black belt in jujitsu.   Not too many "grifters" can make that claim.


Wonder if Dana White would pay him more than $12k to get into the cage.


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how politics and reality changes ones perspective.

For 2 yrs the NY Times has been peddling fear. Many articles about risks to kids without acknowledging that have no risk.

Better late than never...but they should still be held accountable for the fear they spread.


_For the past two years, large parts of American society *have decided harming children was an unavoidable side effect of Covid-19. *And that was probably true in the spring of 2020, when nearly all of society shut down to slow the spread of a deadly and mysterious virus.

But the approach has been less defensible for the past year and a half, as we have learned more about both Covid and the extent of children's suffering from pandemic restrictions.

Data now suggest that many *changes to school routines are of questionable value in controlling the virus's spread*. Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. Other interventions, like forcing students to sit apart from their friends at lunch, may also have little benefit.

One reason: Severe versions of Covid, including long Covid, are extremely rare in children. For them, the virus resembles a typical flu. Children face more risk from car rides than Covid.

The widespread availability of vaccines since last spring also *raises an ethical question: Should children suffer to protect unvaccinated adults* -- who are voluntarily accepting Covid risk for themselves and increasing everybody else's risk, too? Right now, the United States is effectively saying yes.

To be clear, there are some hard decisions and unavoidable trade-offs. Covid can lead to hospitalization or worse for a small percentage of vaccinated adults, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised, and allowing children to resume normal life could create additional risk. The Omicron surge may well heighten that risk, leaving schools with no attractive options.

For the past two years, however, many communities in the U.S. *have not really grappled with the trade-off*. They have tried to minimize the spread of Covid -- a worthy goal absent other factors -- rather than minimizing the damage that Covid does to society. *They have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults, often without acknowledging the dilemma or assessing which decisions lead to less overall harm.*

Given the choices that the country has made, *it should not be surprising that children are suffering so much.*_









						No Way to Grow Up
					

For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

hmmmmm.......guess someone was spoked by the Los Angeles schools guidance.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478793362350215168


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how politics and reality changes ones perspective.
> 
> For 2 yrs the NY Times has been peddling fear. Many articles about risks to kids without acknowledging that have no risk.
> 
> Better late than never...but they should still be held accountable for the fear they spread.
> 
> 
> _For the past two years, large parts of American society *have decided harming children was an unavoidable side effect of Covid-19. *And that was probably true in the spring of 2020, when nearly all of society shut down to slow the spread of a deadly and mysterious virus.
> 
> But the approach has been less defensible for the past year and a half, as we have learned more about both Covid and the extent of children's suffering from pandemic restrictions.
> 
> Data now suggest that many *changes to school routines are of questionable value in controlling the virus's spread*. Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. Other interventions, like forcing students to sit apart from their friends at lunch, may also have little benefit.
> 
> One reason: Severe versions of Covid, including long Covid, are extremely rare in children. For them, the virus resembles a typical flu. Children face more risk from car rides than Covid.
> 
> The widespread availability of vaccines since last spring also *raises an ethical question: Should children suffer to protect unvaccinated adults* -- who are voluntarily accepting Covid risk for themselves and increasing everybody else's risk, too? Right now, the United States is effectively saying yes.
> 
> To be clear, there are some hard decisions and unavoidable trade-offs. Covid can lead to hospitalization or worse for a small percentage of vaccinated adults, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised, and allowing children to resume normal life could create additional risk. The Omicron surge may well heighten that risk, leaving schools with no attractive options.
> 
> For the past two years, however, many communities in the U.S. *have not really grappled with the trade-off*. They have tried to minimize the spread of Covid -- a worthy goal absent other factors -- rather than minimizing the damage that Covid does to society. *They have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults, often without acknowledging the dilemma or assessing which decisions lead to less overall harm.*
> 
> Given the choices that the country has made, *it should not be surprising that children are suffering so much.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Way to Grow Up
> 
> 
> For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


I can't give this a "better late than never".  This has been obvious since at least a year and half ago.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I only made the "left" comment to emphasize grifting happens across the spectrum.
> 
> I don't resent his success.  Good on him for making a buck.  But it's a grift.  People are buying what he's selling....and he knows what sells.   Not unlike Howard Stern and all the other podcast/radio hosts.


One thing I appreciate from these entertainment interviewers like Rogan and Stern is there ability to ask more probing and diverse questions of their guests.  I often find those interviews more informative than a traditional news interview where the questions are scripted to support a particular narrative and the guest is less likely to let their guard down.  I often watch a news interview and the interviewer doesn't ask the next obvious question because it doesn't fit the narrative or they can't adjust and ask off script questions, even though the question begs to be asked.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how politics and reality changes ones perspective.
> 
> For 2 yrs the NY Times has been peddling fear. Many articles about risks to kids without acknowledging that have no risk.
> 
> Better late than never...but they should still be held accountable for the fear they spread.
> 
> 
> _For the past two years, large parts of American society *have decided harming children was an unavoidable side effect of Covid-19. *And that was probably true in the spring of 2020, when nearly all of society shut down to slow the spread of a deadly and mysterious virus.
> 
> But the approach has been less defensible for the past year and a half, as we have learned more about both Covid and the extent of children's suffering from pandemic restrictions.
> 
> Data now suggest that many *changes to school routines are of questionable value in controlling the virus's spread*. Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. Other interventions, like forcing students to sit apart from their friends at lunch, may also have little benefit.
> 
> One reason: Severe versions of Covid, including long Covid, are extremely rare in children. For them, the virus resembles a typical flu. Children face more risk from car rides than Covid.
> 
> The widespread availability of vaccines since last spring also *raises an ethical question: Should children suffer to protect unvaccinated adults* -- who are voluntarily accepting Covid risk for themselves and increasing everybody else's risk, too? Right now, the United States is effectively saying yes.
> 
> To be clear, there are some hard decisions and unavoidable trade-offs. Covid can lead to hospitalization or worse for a small percentage of vaccinated adults, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised, and allowing children to resume normal life could create additional risk. The Omicron surge may well heighten that risk, leaving schools with no attractive options.
> 
> For the past two years, however, many communities in the U.S. *have not really grappled with the trade-off*. They have tried to minimize the spread of Covid -- a worthy goal absent other factors -- rather than minimizing the damage that Covid does to society. *They have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults, often without acknowledging the dilemma or assessing which decisions lead to less overall harm.*
> 
> Given the choices that the country has made, *it should not be surprising that children are suffering so much.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Way to Grow Up
> 
> 
> For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


They must be wrong because @espola said that these restrictions are not affecting kids.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Unless you are a money bag at some big famous place beholden to sucking at the tit of think tanks, etc, most of those who can also have to teach.


Yes in some cases those that can still teach, but based on my professional experience most that teach, can't do.  But my perspective is more from the business end of things and not the hard sciences.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> They must be wrong because @espola said that these restrictions are not affecting kids.


I said no such thing.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I said no such thing.


So you are agreeing that the shutting down schools and sports harms children (which includes their mental well being)?


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> The drama!  Most UFC fighters don't make a ton of money.  So yes, he makes more than some UFC fighters.  The article is quite silly.  UFC made Joe Rogan?  Like he appeared out of nowhere?
> 
> Check out how much NFL broadcasters make.


I remember Joe on Fear Factor.  Dude is killing FOX, CNN, MSNBC and all the rest combined.  I haven't watched the news in over a year.  Tel A Vision is not good for you.  Look at Espola, The Husler, Dad and all those up in NoCal.  They just can;t see the Light.  It blows me away how easy it is for them to turn on a fellow American.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> hmmmmm.......guess someone was spoked by the Los Angeles schools guidance.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478793362350215168


LA is full of fear.  That is the virus and it's got LA by the mask.  It's not a pleasant place to be.  The look on folks eyes says it all.  Panic and fear   I spoke to my new Producer pal and he says it's a ghoastown.  Everyone is either sick, staying home or moving out of the city.  I would move it to Texas because people are sick in LA and people are free in Texas.  Everyone I know is getting sick in LA.  They got the jabs and say, "well, I could be in the hospital or worse, dead.  Taking the two shots and booster saved me from ER bro.  You better watch it or Omicron will get you and then kill you.  Joe said so"  I ask when the last time he had the flu and he says, "2019."  Go figure.


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> LA is full of fear.  That is the virus and it's got LA by the mask.  It's not a pleasant place to be.  The look on folks eyes says it all.  Panic and fear   I spoke to my new Producer pal and he says it's a ghoastown.  Everyone is either sick or staying home or moving out of the city.  I would move it to Texas because people are sick in LA and people are free in Texas.  Everyone I know is getting sick in LA.  They got the jabs and say, "well, I could be in the hospital or worse, dead.  Taking the two shots and booster saved me from ER bro.  You better watch it or Omicron will get you."  I ask when the last time he had the flu and he says, "2019."  Go figure.


No they aren't.  I was in Pasadena on Saturday and there was hardly anyone wearing a mask.  Oh wait, they were all from Utah....nevermind.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So you are agreeing that the shutting down schools and sports harms children (which includes their mental well being)?


I believe I said that it is too soon to tell.  There is no doubt that it is already having noticeable effects on parents.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> I believe I said that it is too soon to tell.  There is no doubt that it is already having noticeable effects on parents.


You are something else old man and how you treat kids is messed up.  You really do have it out for the kids.  I have a custom millstone just prepared for you.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I believe I said that it is too soon to tell.  There is no doubt that it is already having noticeable effects on parents.


Which is like saying It's too soon to tell if the ship will sink.


----------



## Speed

ppl like you are part of the right/left problem, I don't understand why you can't even listen. Intolerance, and the unwillingness to listen, is the biggest issue we have right now across the country


----------



## Ellejustus

Warning, you know is here!!


----------



## Ellejustus

*Whoopi Goldberg stunned by testing positive for COVID: 'I've done everything I was supposed to do'*
*'But that’s the thing about the omicron, you just don’t know where it is'*


----------



## GoldenGate

Ha, ha.  Fox News is upset an anti-vaxxer got what she deserved.  It's a real shame that Ms. Ernby will never have the chance to lose another state assembly election because, well, she chose freedom (from living).   At least she will never have to face her greatest fears in that it wasn't the socialist vaccine that got her, and she'll never be locked up in one of those Nazi anti-vaxxer concentration camps, although I'm sure they're coming now that we've gotten her out of the way. 









						California Republican's COVID death mocked by pro-vaxxers on social media
					

Kelly Ernby, a deputy district attorney in Orange County, California, who was opposed to vaccine mandates, died of complications from the coronavirus earlier this week and her death was quickly mocked by vaccine supporters on social media.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> *Whoopi Goldberg stunned by testing positive for COVID: 'I've done everything I was supposed to do'*
> *'But that’s the thing about the omicron, you just don’t know where it is'*


I wonder if she'll die like Kelly Ernby?


----------



## Ellejustus

GoldenGate said:


> I wonder if she'll die like Kelly Ernby?


RIP to anyone who dies.  We will all die, it's just a matter of when.  I am ready when it's my time.  Hey now, how bout you?  Are you sick too?  I feel great Golden Gate and have been wondering about you.  I know it's you Espola.....lol!  You just have to come after me and my dd and those who have passed away.  We all make choices and we all must live with that choice cheater and liar that you have always been.  You and your evil twin are nasty!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Did this get posted already?
Scientists doing science stuff.









						A Texas team comes up with a COVID vaccine that could be a global game changer
					

Peter Hotez and Maria Elena Bottazzi used an oldie-but- goodie technology to devise a vaccine that's easy to make — and relatively cheap. India has already ordered 300 million doses.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I believe I said that it is too soon to tell.  There is no doubt that it is already having noticeable effects on parents.


No….your EXACT quote, “No, it’s not.”  See post #9864.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Which is like saying It's too soon to tell if the ship will sink.
> 
> View attachment 12586


People have gone through changes/adversity before and been fine. Even children, if their parents are helpful and not self-centered.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did this get posted already?
> Scientists doing science stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Texas team comes up with a COVID vaccine that could be a global game changer
> 
> 
> Peter Hotez and Maria Elena Bottazzi used an oldie-but- goodie technology to devise a vaccine that's easy to make — and relatively cheap. India has already ordered 300 million doses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Imagine the idea of repurposing technology/drugs for a more cost efficient and safer approach to treatment.  Craziness..


----------



## Desert Hound

Basically when you read what the CDC says about surgical masks, they say they are not designed for respiratory illness protection. 

"Does not provide the wearer a reliable level of protection from inhaling smaller airborne particles and is not considered respiratory protection".

I would point out on the N95s it requires fit testing. I lay money most people haven't got fit tested. 

It also requires a seal check. I lay money most people don't know how to do that. 

Why? Because with N95s medical professionals have to be trained how to actually use them. 

Anyway....the CDC points out below surgical masks are not intended to be used as protection for a respiratory virus. 

But then again for those who have been watching, that info has been in the public domain now for many years.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> People have gone through changes/adversity before and been fine. Even children, if their parents are helpful and not self-centered.


No doubt, but its been clearly illustrated that the less fortunate are the most damaged by the Covid restrictions.  This adversity is unnecessary and is being implemented by self-centered adults...adults who put their needs ahead of the needs of children because they fear the virus.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No….your EXACT quote, “No, it’s not.”  See post #9864.


????





__





						Vaccine
					

You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?  No.   The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.  These days experience seems to be irrelevant.  Which side you row for appears to...



					www.socalsoccer.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine
> 
> 
> You want your 30 year out of date humanities degree to count the same as scientists with 30 years of relevant experience?  No.   The humanities degree qualifies you to bullshit with confidence, but nothing more.  These days experience seems to be irrelevant.  Which side you row for appears to...
> 
> 
> 
> www.socalsoccer.com


9684


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> One thing I appreciate from these entertainment interviewers like Rogan and Stern is there ability to ask more probing and diverse questions of their guests.  I often find those interviews more informative than a traditional news interview where the questions are scripted to support a particular narrative and the guest is less likely to let their guard down.  I often watch a news interview and the interviewer doesn't ask the next obvious question because it doesn't fit the narrative or they can't adjust and ask off script questions, even though the question begs to be asked.


Yeah I'm with you.  They're both great interviewers.  That said, I still think they know what sells.  Stern's political views have contorted drastically over the years in a large part based on him reading his audience.   Rogan knows his base eats up his conspiracy and anti-vax BS -- no way he goes back on that...at least not until his listenership changes like it did with Stern.


----------



## watfly

Things change.


dad4 said:


> Take a look at Newsom’s mask rule.  It lasts all of one month.  It’s pretty clearly trying to limit delta transmission over the holidays, and that’s about it.











						California extends indoor mask mandate through February 15
					

California has extended its statewide indoor mask mandate, state health officials announced Wednesday.




					www.10news.com


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> 9684
> 
> View attachment 12588


9864 <> 9684.  Somebody's dislexic.

"No, it's not" refers to the claim that it's a yes or no question.

Here's a trick you can use -- clicking on the number in the upper right of a post gives a URL that links directly to that post, with no danger of copying the number down wrong.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah I'm with you.  They're both great interviewers.  That said, I still think they know what sells.  Stern's political views have contorted drastically over the years in a large part based on him reading his audience.   Rogan knows his base eats up his conspiracy and anti-vax BS -- no way he goes back on that...at least not until his listenership changes like it did with Stern.


No doubt that they exploit what sells (as does any successful entertainer), which in my mind doesn't qualify as a grifter.  They are giving customers what they want.  I don't know that people feel like they've been swindled listening/watching Rogan and Stern, whereas they would with a grifter (we're probably just talking semantics).  Although I do feel swindled sometimes watching traditional news.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Things change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California extends indoor mask mandate through February 15
> 
> 
> California has extended its statewide indoor mask mandate, state health officials announced Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.10news.com


I can’t speak for other parts of the state , but I haven’t seen much in the way of increased masking in San Diego county( north county area ) since the mandates took place .

the old lady at the movie theatre last week was enforcing it , but that’s about the only private business I’ve been in that they had someone enforcing it


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> No doubt, but its been clearly illustrated that the less fortunate are the most damaged by the Covid restrictions.  This adversity is unnecessary and is being implemented by self-centered adults...adults who put their needs ahead of the needs of children because they fear the virus.


@Hüsker Dü's interpretation of "adversity" is likely deeply rooted in the idea of the adversity suffered during the great depression, when it was almost equally distributed and not caused intentionally.  The idea that kids are intentionally forced to stay home from school is irrational.  Add on top of the closing business to deny income to those same parents.  The inability to offer lunch, laptops, and wifi is real.  Even basic healthcare is on the table in some school districts.  It's shameful to  make comments insinuating that kids have to toughen up and deal with the education and sociological issues that have a more sinister impact on kids from families that are living pay check to pay check.  Infuriating if you think about it.

Most of us on this forum likely breezed through the initial lockdown.  Upgraded wifi, upraded kid computers, re-purposed areas in your house for school work.  Some kids even thrived in that environment.  Slept in, woke up minutes before class, ate breakfast in bed. 

 Not happening so much in parts of phoenix where multi generational families are crammed into less than idea square footage to service a family of 10. Wifi upgrade likley not happening, computer upgrade - nope. Space for school work...not even close.  Supervision?  likely not if parents or wage earners were out trying to hustle a paycheck.  

Funny how zeros in paychecks impact quality of life.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> @Hüsker Dü's interpretation of "adversity" is likely deeply rooted in the idea of the adversity suffered during the great depression, when it was almost equally distributed and not caused intentionally.  The idea that kids are intentionally forced to stay home from school is irrational.  Add on top of the closing business to deny income to those same parents.  The inability to offer lunch, laptops, and wifi is real.  Even basic healthcare is on the table in some school districts.  It's shameful to  make comments insinuating that kids have to toughen up and deal with the education and sociological issues that have a more sinister impact on kids from families that are living pay check to pay check.  Infuriating if you think about it.
> 
> Most of us on this forum likely breezed through the initial lockdown.  Upgraded wifi, upraded kid computers, re-purposed areas in your house for school work.  Some kids even thrived in that environment.  Slept in, woke up minutes before class, ate breakfast in bed.
> 
> Not happening so much in parts of phoenix where multi generational families are crammed into less than idea square footage to service a family of 10. Wifi upgrade likley not happening, computer upgrade - nope. Space for school work...not even close.  Supervision?  likely not if parents or wage earners were out trying to hustle a paycheck.
> 
> Funny how zeros in paychecks impact quality of life.


Some kids are introverts and it was heaven for them.  Some kids (like mine) are high extroverts and it was incredibly painful to them.  Kids are not only built not financially equally, but also personality wise.  Then let's not forget the challenged kids, whether it was autistic kids who couldn't get their OT, deaf kids who can't see anyone speak, reading delayed kids who couldn't get the early intervention they needed, or ADHD kids for whom zoom screens are torture.  For kids that did have trouble, unless they were comfortable sharing already (which for most boys isn't the case), psychological intervention via zoom was problematic because no one was seeing kids in person (at least in California).  One friend of ours had an eating disorder....they couldn't access the hospital for treatment, and had to face either not treating it and see their daughter waste away or send her off to a hospital in Colorado.


----------



## Grace T.

Eric sondheimer of la times is reporting San Diego unified is imposing a vaccination requirement on all participants in sports and extracurriculars (the prior court case only covered schooling). Non essential extracurricular (such as those out of season, conditioning, band and cheer or dances and festivals) are being paused.

also the buzz around the Super Bowl being moved out of California is increasing.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> 9864 <> 9684.  Somebody's dislexic.
> 
> "No, it's not" refers to the claim that it's a yes or no question.
> 
> Here's a trick you can use -- clicking on the number in the upper right of a post gives a URL that links directly to that post, with no danger of copying the number down wrong.


Convenient


----------



## Ellejustus

*Macron's blunt language on France's unvaccinated causes furore*

*Macron said he wanted to "piss off" unvaccinated people by making their lives so complicated they would end up getting jabbed.   He was speaking in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper in which he also called unvaccinated people irresponsible and unworthy of being considered citizens.*

At least he is honest about how he really feels.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Eric sondheimer of la times is reporting San Diego unified is imposing a vaccination requirement on all participants in sports and extracurriculars (the prior court case only covered schooling). Non essential extracurricular (such as those out of season, conditioning, band and cheer or dances and festivals) are being paused.
> 
> also the buzz around the Super Bowl being moved out of California is increasing.


Yup, the last card of the deck is to hurt the kids and force them to jab or no sports, just like dad had to jab keep his job and mom jab to keep her nurse job.  Bye bye Super Bowl LA.  Kiss it goodbye.  My really really good friend is packed up and gone and will not come back to California.  So many people are leaving.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Eric sondheimer of la times is reporting San Diego unified is imposing a vaccination requirement on all participants in sports and extracurriculars (the prior court case only covered schooling). Non essential extracurricular (such as those out of season, conditioning, band and cheer or dances and festivals) are being paused.
> 
> also the buzz around the Super Bowl being moved out of California is increasing.


Dallas is reportedly the backup plan, I can’t believe they are moving these events to these red state death zones


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Some kids are introverts and it was heaven for them.  Some kids (like mine) are high extroverts and it was incredibly painful to them.  Kids are not only built not financially equally, but also personality wise.  Then let's not forget the challenged kids, whether it was autistic kids who couldn't get their OT, deaf kids who can't see anyone speak, reading delayed kids who couldn't get the early intervention they needed, or ADHD kids for whom zoom screens are torture.  For kids that did have trouble, unless they were comfortable sharing already (which for most boys isn't the case), psychological intervention via zoom was problematic because no one was seeing kids in person (at least in California).  One friend of ours had an eating disorder....they couldn't access the hospital for treatment, and had to face either not treating it and see their daughter waste away or send her off to a hospital in Colorado.


layered and complex, as most things are when dealing with children.  It's very easy to sit back in your rocking chair and monday morning quarterback things.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Things change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California extends indoor mask mandate through February 15
> 
> 
> California has extended its statewide indoor mask mandate, state health officials announced Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.10news.com


Thing do change.   Limiting Delta is no longer the big question.  No free takeout for me.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Things change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California extends indoor mask mandate through February 15
> 
> 
> California has extended its statewide indoor mask mandate, state health officials announced Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.10news.com


We are all shocked <no, we're not>


----------



## Grace T.

San Francisco teachers are staging a sick out tomorrow to protest a lack of covid testing.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> "No, it's not" refers to the claim that it's a yes or no question.


Given the context of that exchange, the “No, it’s not” comment was about as intentionally misleading as @crush (rip) ‘s “I got my ‘V’s’” statement.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Given the context of that exchange, the “No, it’s not” comment was about as intentionally misleading as @crush (rip) ‘s “I got my ‘V’s’” statement.


No, it's not.


----------



## Ellejustus

N00B said:


> Given the context of that exchange, the “No, it’s not” comment was about as intentionally misleading as @crush (rip) ‘s “I got my ‘V’s’” statement.


Hey now.  I got all my "V's" is the truth.  I got "IT" two years ago.  How is that misleading?  I have been honest, open and transparent more then anyone here.  What's your name?  My name is Bill.  Come on man!!  Oh please.  I'm an open book and you should know that by now.  I was called a hypocrite too which is the complete opposite of me.  Thanks for putting "crush" down.  He did his part and I'm super proud of him.  Perfect?  No.  Liar?  No!  Shrewd?  Yes!  I have not got any of these shots or boosters, never will.  Call them what you want NOOB, but Vax is not the right word.  I think we can all agree this is not what you wanted injected into your veins.  Oh no, these last two years is much deeper.  This is not a Vaccine.  Even the dude who invited his jab says so.


----------



## Ellejustus

Guess what the #1 killer is for U.S. Adults between 18-45?


----------



## Ellejustus

Harris& Biden message is going on live.  Wow!!  This is nuts!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

They failed!!!  Never again!!!  What is this that I am watching?  God help us quickly....


----------



## Ellejustus

This is crazy ass shit.  This is going to go viral!!!


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> San Francisco teachers are staging a sick out tomorrow to protest a lack of covid testing.


I wish we could pull a Reagan Air Traffic Controllers move on these and the Chicago teachers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I wish we could pull a Reagan Air Traffic Controllers move on these and the Chicago teachers.


“We”? Interesting, all your wishes come true in one move! Plus the juxtaposition of a Reagan act coming back into a situation partially fostered by a Republican (in name only) president.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> layered and complex, as most things are when dealing with children.  It's very easy to sit back in your rocking chair and monday morning quarterback things.


I disagree there’s any quarterbacking going on by either side here.  Some of us knew what was happening as early as April 2020.  By summer of 2020 the aged stratification of risk was very very clear to anyone willing to look at the data instead of the hysterics of what if. One side was very clearly wrong here.  One side was very clearly right and knew it early on.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I disagree there’s any quarterbacking going on by either side here.  Some of us knew what was happening as early as April 2020.  By summer of 2020 the aged stratification of risk was very very clear to anyone willing to look at the data instead of the hysterics of what if. One side was very clearly wrong here.  One side was very clearly right and knew it early on.


So how would you have done things, from day one?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> “We”? Interesting, all your wishes come true in one move! Plus the juxtaposition of a Reagan act coming back into a situation partially fostered by a Republican (in name only) president.


Please don't disturb my fantasy.  

Do you support Chicago and SF teachers not going to work?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So how would you have done things, from day one?


I've repeatedly and consistently said what I would have done.  I would have shut the borders far earlier and stopped the cruise ships (Jan 2020) to buy time.  I would have probably done the same lockdown (the Sulley birdstrike principle) to give the hospitals time to organize, and probably would have done it earlier (at the time Pelosi was wandering around Chinatown saying it was grand I was noting it was a problem).  By summer though it was quite clear the approach wouldn't work.  It was a dialogue with my friend Megan that contributed to the WP article advocating to move everything outside (which is what I was pushing for). I pushed for a higher quality mask for adults, recognizing it worked particularly only in short term exposures.  Would have lifted travel restrictions.  Would have pushed for home rapid tests and private companies.  Would have given greater priorities to therapeutics, not just vaccines.  Wouldn't have suspended outdoor sports.  Wouldn't have approved of large scale rallies, even though I recognized they were protected by the first amendment, as was outdoor worship.  By late summer, schools fully open, no masks....everything else is Sweden.  During the 2020 winter surges I would have suspended large scale events, small size indoor events (like wedding receptions) and indoor (not outdoor) dining.  I thought test and trace from the beginning was a waste of time and predicted it would fail everywhere.  By the end of the winter surge and old folks vaccinated, I would have lifted all restrictions except the more vulnerable places (hospitals, nursing homes) which I think De Santis did an excellent job with.  I would have prioritized vaccinating the elderly.  I was on the fence re non federal vaccine mandates but once its clear they don't stop transmission would have dropped it.  Essentially, after the initial wave, I was Sweden light.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow if the NY Times is publishing a relatively mild critique of her, she really has lost the thread.









						For C.D.C.’s Walensky, a Steep Learning Curve on Messaging
					

Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, has stumbled in explaining her policy decisions.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Please don't disturb my fantasy.
> 
> Do you support Chicago and SF teachers not going to work?


I believe in individual rights and collective bargaining.


----------



## Grace T.

In the end this is the story of masks: it comes down to making people "feel safer".









						Covid: Evidence on face masks in schools 'inconclusive'
					

Government admits uncertainty over whether face coverings will truly cut Covid spread.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I believe in individual rights and collective bargaining.


So yes, although those two things are contradictory?


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> So how would you have done things, from day one?


We need to go back to 1963


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> So yes, although those two things are contradictory?


The individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to represent their best interests.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> The individual has the right to make their own decisions,* including joining forces* to represent their best interests.


The Forces of Evil have been one tough foe for all of us on the side of the truth and light.  Soon and very soon, the forces of darkness that you belong to will be over   Yay, I cant wait to see the hate disappear quickly, like in a  snap!!!.  What I watched today was insane.  You lairs have been lying and joining the forces of evil ever since the Glass Ceiling Witch lost in 2016.  You and your Elk have caused so much harm dude and you dont give a damn.  Karma has a millstone for you all ready   I stand with the Forces of Yeshua and him alone.  Good luck pal, you had your choice.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> In the end this is the story of masks: it comes down to making people "feel safer".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: Evidence on face masks in schools 'inconclusive'
> 
> 
> Government admits uncertainty over whether face coverings will truly cut Covid spread.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


A better and more accurate headline would be....."Despite us and everyone screaming that one must wear a mask, 2 + years into it we really don't have any evidence to show they work."


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> The individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to represent their best interests.


I assume then you don't support closed shops where they are required to join a particular union and/or make contributions to the political activities of the unions (e.g. the teachers union).


----------



## Desert Hound

When I came across this yesterday I thought of espola.

If they can train a goldfish....

Shouldn't espola at some point be able to figure out how to take a position on something?









						Goldfish are trained to 'drive' a robotic tank by scientists
					

Six goldfish were trained to use a specially-made vehicle and find their way around a room towards a food reward, say scientists at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Desert Hound

Power protects power.

One of the fascinating/sad things about this case...along with Epstein is....

She was convicted of facilitating sex trafficking related to minors.

And yet where are the names of the people who took advantage of these young girls?

The feds know who they are. And yet they are not being prosecuted. 









						Ghislaine Maxwell judge to consider new trial over juror comments
					

The development could endanger a verdict that was widely hailed as offering long-delayed justice to victims of Jeffrey Epstein.  Read more at straitstimes.com.




					www.straitstimes.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I assume then you don't support closed shops where they are required to join a particular union and/or make contributions to the political activities of the unions (e.g. the teachers union).


There are other opportunities in those fields for those who don’t want to contribute to the common cause. Majority rules (not the whiniest and loudest), that’s democracy. Are you ok with Citizens United?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> There are other opportunities in those fields for those who don’t want to contribute to the common cause. Majority rules (not the whiniest and loudest), that’s democracy. Are you ok with Citizens United?


Let's run through my Orwellian translator:

I believe an individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to advance their interests, but only if it doesn't run afoul of everyone else's preferences, in which case an individual doesn't have a right to make their own decisions.  The majority preferences must also be in line with my preferences, otherwise I reserve the right to condemn it as evil and exercise my veto.  If you don't contribute to my approved common cause as has been vetted and approved by me, and therefore which is no doubt virtuous, we reserve the right to deprive you of your ability to work, at least to the extent it runs against the collective good, again as defined by me.


This is why there's always been the concern about the tyranny of the majority.   It's as old as the French revolution with the mob cutting everyone's heads off.  Democracy is great....it's the best system in comparison to all the others....but even we don't have a pure democracy (we have a republic).  But I believe in liberty above all else. Society, just because it decided by majority vote, doesn't get to silence you, deprive you of your life, or deprive you of your basic rights.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Let's run through my Orwellian translator:
> 
> I believe an individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to advance their interests, but only if it doesn't run afoul of everyone else's preferences, in which case an individual doesn't have a right to make their own decisions.  The majority preferences must also be in line with my preferences, otherwise I reserve the right to condemn it as evil and exercise my veto.  If you don't contribute to my approved common cause as has been vetted and approved by me, and therefore which is no doubt virtuous, we reserve the right to deprive you of your ability to work, at least to the extent it runs against the collective good, again as defined by me.
> 
> 
> This is why there's always been the concern about the tyranny of the majority.   It's as old as the French revolution with the mob cutting everyone's heads off.  Democracy is great....it's the best system in comparison to all the others....but even we don't have a pure democracy (we have a republic).  But I believe in liberty above all else. Society, just because it decided by majority vote, doesn't get to silence you, deprive you of your life, or deprive you of your basic rights.


If you want join, participate, you must abide by the rules. We all don’t have to bend over backwards to facilitate your particular fancies.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> If you want join, participate, you must abide by the rules. We all don’t have to bend over backwards to facilitate your particular fancies.


Disagree since the decision to "join" isn't made by you but the employer, ESPECIALLY if said employer is a government entity.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Let's run through my Orwellian translator:
> 
> I believe an individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to advance their interests, but only if it doesn't run afoul of everyone else's preferences, in which case an individual doesn't have a right to make their own decisions.  The majority preferences must also be in line with my preferences, otherwise I reserve the right to condemn it as evil and exercise my veto.  If you don't contribute to my approved common cause as has been vetted and approved by me, and therefore which is no doubt virtuous, we reserve the right to deprive you of your ability to work, at least to the extent it runs against the collective good, again as defined by me.
> 
> 
> This is why there's always been the concern about the tyranny of the majority.   It's as old as the French revolution with the mob cutting everyone's heads off.  Democracy is great....it's the best system in comparison to all the others....but even we don't have a pure democracy (we have a republic).  But I believe in liberty above all else. Society, just because it decided by majority vote, doesn't get to silence you, deprive you of your life, or deprive you of your basic rights.


Its unfortunate but some people's allegiance to unions is stronger than their allegiance to children.  Sad actually.  Talk about self-centered adults.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/05/teachers-unions-are-wrong-covid-19-democrats-must-force-them-back-work/


----------



## espola

espola said:


> No, it's not.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Let's run through my Orwellian translator:
> 
> I believe an individual has the right to make their own decisions, including joining forces to advance their interests, but only if it doesn't run afoul of everyone else's preferences, in which case an individual doesn't have a right to make their own decisions.  The majority preferences must also be in line with my preferences, otherwise I reserve the right to condemn it as evil and exercise my veto.  If you don't contribute to my approved common cause as has been vetted and approved by me, and therefore which is no doubt virtuous, we reserve the right to deprive you of your ability to work, at least to the extent it runs against the collective good, again as defined by me.
> 
> 
> This is why there's always been the concern about the tyranny of the majority.   It's as old as the French revolution with the mob cutting everyone's heads off.  Democracy is great....it's the best system in comparison to all the others....but even we don't have a pure democracy (we have a republic).  But I believe in liberty above all else. Society, just because it decided by majority vote, doesn't get to silence you, deprive you of your life, or deprive you of your basic rights.


Does your Orwellian translator output include the part about the French Revolution?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Its unfortunate but some people's allegiance to unions is stronger than their allegiance to children.  Sad actually.  Talk about self-centered adults.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/05/teachers-unions-are-wrong-covid-19-democrats-must-force-them-back-work/


Who is Henry Olsen?


----------



## Brav520

Don’t fall into that trap, Watfly. He knows how to google


----------



## Grace T.

Birth During the Pandemic May Affect Neurodevelopment
					

In utero COVID exposure does not appear to be a factor




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Does your Orwellian translator output include the part about the French Revolution?


I'm gonna have to ask my kid to teach me how to turn on the beep that indicates when the thing is done translating.  Unfortunately, I'm not very tech savvy.  He thought I didn't need it as it's pretty self-evident even to the dog....guess he was wrong.  The gadget is a wonder, though.  Best Christmas present ever.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Disagree since the decision to "join" isn't made by you but the employer, ESPECIALLY if said employer is a government entity.


You're not making sense to me. Every job has T&Cs. You agree to those when you accept the job. You have complete liberty to accept the job or not. If one mandates union membership, then you are at liberty to decline the job offer as you disagree with that. New employees don't get to dictate their own T&Cs, no company could tolerate that; it would be unworkable.

I've never been in a union or a unionized workplace, so I've no idea how I'd feel about it, but if it ever comes up, I'd have a look. If it worked for me, great, if not, then I'd decline (assuming I wasn't desperate for the job for some reason).


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> You're not making sense to me. Every job has T&Cs. You agree to those when you accept the job. You have complete liberty to accept the job or not. If one mandates union membership, then you are at liberty to decline the job offer as you disagree with that. New employees don't get to dictate their own T&Cs, no company could tolerate that; it would be unworkable.
> 
> I've never been in a union or a unionized workplace, so I've no idea how I'd feel about it, but if it ever comes up, I'd have a look. If it worked for me, great, if not, then I'd decline (assuming I wasn't desperate for the job for some reason).


1. The employer in this case isn't making up the T&C.  It's the collective of the employees (the union).
2. There are restrictions also on what an employer can tell you to do under law (minimum wages, work hour, political activities).  Beyond that it's a bargain between the employer and an individual (or a group of individuals acting collectively).  It's a contract and one of the principles of contracts is you can't bind people who do not consent to the contract.
3. That collective of employees is changing day in and day out.  People leave and come back so it's not the same group of 5, 10 or even 100 people who have opted to act collectively.  Any one of them might any day decide they don't want to act collectively and/or leave for someone that doesn't.  It's the ship problem: if you replace parts of a ship, when does it cease being the same ship.  At a minimum, if you wanted to force some people to consent, you'd have to exempt people already working there when the union is formed, and periodically recertify the union as people change their mind and/or leave and get hired (perhaps yearly) if we really care about democratic principles
4. For a public employer these concerns double down: because the government is subject to capture by special interests who are especially motivated in the particular issue which the general public may be apathetic to.


----------



## Grace T.

https://www.cato.org/working-paper/evidence-community-cloth-face-masking-limit-spread-sars-cov-2-critical-review


----------



## Grace T.

Rumors are flying that Los Angeles Co is about to announce new sports restrictions....don't know what they are or if the rumor is true....Ferrer should be speaking shortly for her usual brief.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> 1. The employer in this case isn't making up the T&C.  It's the collective of the employees (the union).
> 2. There are restrictions also on what an employer can tell you to do under law (minimum wages, work hour, political activities).  Beyond that it's a bargain between the employer and an individual (or a group of individuals acting collectively).  It's a contract and one of the principles of contracts is you can't bind people who do not consent to the contract.
> 3. That collective of employees is changing day in and day out.  People leave and come back so it's not the same group of 5, 10 or even 100 people who have opted to act collectively.  Any one of them might any day decide they don't want to act collectively and/or leave for someone that doesn't.  It's the ship problem: if you replace parts of a ship, when does it cease being the same ship.  At a minimum, if you wanted to force some people to consent, you'd have to exempt people already working there when the union is formed, and periodically recertify the union as people change their mind and/or leave and get hired (perhaps yearly) if we really care about democratic principles
> 4. For a public employer these concerns double down: because the government is subject to capture by special interests who are especially motivated in the particular issue which the general public may be apathetic to.


1. The T&Cs are agreed between the employer & union, i.e. they both have to agree.
2. You are bound if you accept the offer, and are then bound by that acceptance. You can decline.
3. The collective of employees can decide to change the T&Cs, if the employer agrees, as part of a negotiation. You're not forcing anyone to consent, as everyone consented by accepting the job offer. If subsequently someone want to change that, they have to work within the parameters they agreed to both within the union and then by getting the employer to agree.

You never lose your "liberty" from the time you accept or if you ever decide to leave as its not for you or because the majority is fine with the status quo (and you are not).


----------



## Grace T.

Dr John goes over the research suggesting that Omicron evolved in mice....reverse zooanisis....and why it's the most likely explanation.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> 1. The T&Cs are agreed between the employer & union, i.e. they both have to agree.
> 2. You are bound if you accept the offer, and are then bound by that acceptance. You can decline.
> 3. The collective of employees can decide to change the T&Cs, if the employer agrees, as part of a negotiation. You're not forcing anyone to consent, as everyone consented by accepting the job offer. If subsequently someone want to change that, they have to work within the parameters they agreed to both within the union and then by getting the employer to agree.
> 
> You never lose your "liberty" from the time you accept or if you ever decide to leave as its not for you or because the majority is fine with the status quo (and you are not).


Your 3 is built on some wrong assumptions.  The laws on certification of unions are not agreed to by employers and unions.  They are set out in law which provides the procedures.   One issue with the law as structured is that it does not provide for roaming consent (e.g. if the entire work force changes in 1 year the new workforce is still bound by rules agreed by people who are not them).  They can't deviate from that formula since it's set out in law....there's no "agreement".  Furthermore, you aren't accounting for people who voted no on union certification (or who would periodically vote no on a rolling certificate)...they are already employed and did not consent to the change.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Rumors are flying that Los Angeles Co is about to announce new sports restrictions....don't know what they are or if the rumor is true....Ferrer should be speaking shortly for her usual brief.


"don't know what they are or if the rumor is true"

Is that your new standard for posting?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "don't know what they are or if the rumor is true"
> 
> Is that your new standard for posting?


It's why I qualified it....if folks are interested they should tune in to the talk which begins shortly.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Your 3 is built on some wrong assumptions.  The laws on certification of unions are not agreed to by employers and unions.  They are set out in law which provides the procedures.   One issue with the law as structured is that it does not provide for roaming consent (e.g. if the entire work force changes in 1 year the new workforce is still bound by rules agreed by people who are not them).  They can't deviate from that formula since it's set out in law....there's no "agreement".  Furthermore, you aren't accounting for people who voted no on union certification (or who would periodically vote no on a rolling certificate)...they are already employed and did not consent to the change.


So the new workforce in your hypothetical can't vote to un-certify? The ones who voted no stayed, hence agreed with the resulting change (by staying). They can leave if they feel strongly enough about it.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> So the new workforce in your hypothetical can't vote to un-certify? The ones who voted no stayed, hence agreed with the resulting change (by staying). They can leave if they feel strongly enough about it.


There's a process to decertify.  It was made deliberately hard.  If we cared about democracy, you'd pick a time period (e.g. yearly) to make sure you had robust consent.

You are back to authoritarianism now....if you don't like it, quit the job you have (and maybe like) because the majority can impose its will on you, even though you did not consent.  I just disagree with that.  I like unions, think they are a great idea but hate removing consent from people, particularly for public employment.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm gonna have to ask my kid to teach me how to turn on the beep that indicates when the thing is done translating.  Unfortunately, I'm not very tech savvy.  He thought I didn't need it as it's pretty self-evident even to the dog....guess he was wrong.  The gadget is a wonder, though.  Best Christmas present ever.


Tell us more about the French Revolution.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> There's a process to decertify.  It was made deliberately hard.  If we cared about democracy, you'd pick a time period (e.g. yearly) to make sure you had robust consent.
> 
> You are back to authoritarianism now....if you don't like it, quit the job you have (and maybe like) because the majority can impose its will on you, even though you did not consent.  I just disagree with that.  I like unions, think they are a great idea but hate removing consent from people, particularly for public employment.


So when a company mandates something for its employees and their only recourse is to leave, if they don't like it, that's authoritarianism - which it must be by your lose premise above. 

It could be worse, the minority could impose their will on you ... maybe like a Pres voted in by the minority and a senate "majority" representing a minority of the people loading the courts ... isn't that authoritarianism too then?

For what its worth, I firmly believe that the extremes of both left & right love authoritarianism, but only if they are in charge. There are plenty of shenanigans currently going, on that point, in this country currently.

A plethora of current working conditions, that we take for granted, were hard won by unions. None of them were given freely or willingly. People forget that or just ignore it. I think unions have their place.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> "don't know what they are or if the rumor is true"
> 
> Is that your new standard for posting?


So. Fucking. Worthless. Everytime.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> So. Fucking. Worthless. Everytime.


Must you sob in public?


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> So when a company mandates something for its employees and their only recourse is to leave, if they don't like it, that's authoritarianism - which it must be by your lose premise above.
> 
> It could be worse, the minority could impose their will on you ... maybe like a Pres voted in by the minority and a senate "majority" representing a minority of the people loading the courts ... isn't that authoritarianism too then?
> 
> For what its worth, I firmly believe that the extremes of both left & right love authoritarianism, but only if they are in charge. There are plenty of shenanigans currently going, on that point, in this country currently.
> 
> A plethora of current working conditions, that we take for granted, were hard won by unions. None of them were given freely or willingly. People forget that or just ignore it. I think unions have their place.


I agree that unions have their place. Love em. I just don’t think they have the right to override individual consent and they don’t in all states.

Employers are limited by what they can impose on employees under law. There’s a ton of restrictions. A lot of those were in employment law reforms, not through unions

your political argument is not relevant. We do not live in a democracy. Ialso think the idea of yearly voting unions is not really necessary if you honor consent but you guys were the ones that argued democracy. I care more about liberty.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> I agree that unions have their place. Love em. I just don’t think they have the right to override individual consent and they don’t in all states.
> 
> Employers are limited by what they can impose on employees under law. There’s a ton of restrictions. A lot of those were in employment law reforms, not through unions
> 
> your political argument is not relevant. We do not live in a democracy. Ialso think the idea of yearly voting unions is not really necessary if you honor consent but you guys were the ones that argued democracy. I care more about liberty.


Unions are also bound by laws, just like employers. So if the former can be authoritarian (legally) then the latter can be also.

You brought up authoritarianism & politics (via the government linkage), so my political analogy is relevant.

I've pointed out that you have a choice and are at liberty to do what you want, join or not. You just don't like the choice and are hiding behind the liberty nonsense. Liberty doesn't mean you always get your way or to do what you want - it does mean you have a choice, so your liberty is just fine in this instance (unions in the workplace).


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Unions are also bound by laws, just like employers. So if the former can be authoritarian (legally) then the latter can be also.
> 
> You brought up authoritarianism & politics (via the government linkage), so my political analogy is relevant.
> 
> I've pointed out that you have a choice and are at liberty to do what you want, join or not. You just don't like the choice and are hiding behind the liberty nonsense. Liberty doesn't mean you always get your way or to do what you want - it does mean you have a choice, so your liberty is just fine in this instance (unions in the workplace).


Comply or lose your job is not a choice in my book.

employers cannot be coercive. They act on consent not slavery.  It’s not equivalent. That’s why we have employment law to limit what employees can and can’t demand. There’s no equivalent restrictions for union in closed shop states.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Comply or lose your job is not a choice in my book.
> 
> employers cannot be coercive. They act on consent not slavery.  It’s not equivalent. That’s why we have employment law to limit what employees can and can’t demand. There’s no equivalent restrictions for union in closed shop states.


You have to accept the job to lose it - once you accept, you have agreed to comply. So you make your choice at the door, enter or not >> liberty in action. If you subsequently decide you don't like your choice, you can leave (make another choice) >> liberty in action again.

Employment "at will" gives full power to employers. Sure, there are some special categories, but generally they can ensure they get compliance or just replace employees ... although that's actually not so easy if the employees are unionized but I digress ... I have yet to work in a company where a change in T&Cs was based on the consent of the employees. It was obviously legal, but never consensual, e.g. let's reduce the 401K match or remove it temporarily - something agreed when you joined, but then they decide to change it; or let's not pay the performance bonus to everyone this year .... Naturally I've taken stock of my liberty and made an appropriate choice in each instance. Funnily enough, for both examples, its probable that neither would have been possible in a unionized environment.


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> Unions are also bound by laws, just like employers. So if the former can be authoritarian (legally) then the latter can be also.
> 
> You brought up authoritarianism & politics (via the government linkage), so my political analogy is relevant.
> 
> I've pointed out that you have a choice and are at liberty to do what you want, join or not. You just don't like the choice and are hiding behind the liberty nonsense. Liberty doesn't mean you always get your way or to do what you want - it does mean you have a choice, so your liberty is just fine in this instance (unions in the workplace).


It’s a basic freedom of association argument.  Do I have a right to choose not to associate with the union?   Or can I be financially punished for choosing to exercise that right?  Loss of an employment opportunity is, by most measures, a financial penalty.

Whether the union is popular is irrelevant.  Even if 99% of workers agree, the majority does not have the right to financially punish the minority for choosing not to associate.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> You have to accept the job to lose it - once you accept, you have agreed to comply. So you make your choice at the door, enter or not >> liberty in action. If you subsequently decide you don't like your choice, you can leave (make another choice) >> liberty in action again.
> 
> Employment "at will" gives full power to employers. Sure, there are some special categories, but generally they can ensure they get compliance or just replace employees ... although that's actually not so easy if the employees are unionized but I digress ... I have yet to work in a company where a change in T&Cs was based on the consent of the employees. It was obviously legal, but never consensual, e.g. let's reduce the 401K match or remove it temporarily - something agreed when you joined, but then they decide to change it; or let's not pay the performance bonus to everyone this year .... Naturally I've taken stock of my liberty and made an appropriate choice in each instance. Funnily enough, for both examples, its probable that neither would have been possible in a unionized environment.


Employment at will has been really whittled down even in the red states over the last two decades. It’s why medium and larger employees go out of the way to document when firing for cause.

I am constantly amazed by the lefts willingness to engage in authoritarian measures when it’s a cause they agree with


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> It’s a basic freedom of association argument.  Do I have a right to choose not to associate with the union?   Or can I be financially punished for choosing to exercise that right?  Loss of an employment opportunity is, by most measures, a financial penalty.
> 
> Whether the union is popular is irrelevant.  Even if 99% of workers agree, the majority does not have the right to financially punish the minority for choosing not to associate.


If joining a union is a condition of employment (which started this), and if its a condition then it must be legal, then the freedom of association argument is moot.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Employment at will has been really whittled down even in the red states over the last two decades. It’s why medium and larger employees go out of the way to document when firing for cause.
> 
> I am constantly amazed by the lefts willingness to engage in authoritarian measures when it’s a cause they agree with


Employment at will allows you to terminate for no cause. 

I am constantly amazed by the left or rights willingness to engage in authoritarian measures when it’s a cause they agree with.

Authoritarianism never ends well, history is red with the blood of victims of both the left & rights excesses as a result.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Employment at will allows you to terminate for no cause.
> 
> I am constantly amazed by the left or rights willingness to engage in authoritarian measures when it’s a cause they agree with.
> 
> Authoritarianism never ends well, history is red with the blood of victims of both the left & rights excesses as a result.


As I said employment at will has been whittled away and invite a lawsuit (almost everyone now days is a protected class). It’s why employers go out of their way to document.

the difference with right/left authoritarianism is that the Left is constantly telling us they are the good ones, particularly when it comes to caring about workers. The dirty secret is you don’t trust joe worker to make up his own mind about whether to bargain collectively or not because of the “greater good”


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> If joining a union is a condition of employment (which started this), and if its a condition then it must be legal, then the freedom of association argument is moot.


Your argument is that anything which legal, by definition, cannot violate individual rights?

That is preposterous.  There are plenty of things which violated individual rights despite being upheld as legal.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> the difference with right/left authoritarianism is that the Left is constantly telling us they are the good ones, particularly when it comes to caring about workers. The dirty secret is you don’t trust joe worker to make up his own mind about whether to bargain collectively or not because of the “greater good”


lol, both the left & right tell you that they are the good ones and looking out for you, they just spin it differently.


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> Your argument is that anything which legal, by definition, cannot violate individual rights?
> 
> That is preposterous.  There are plenty of things which violated individual rights despite being upheld as legal.


No, my argument is that when you accept a job you agree to the T&Cs. If that includes union membership then you agree to that, along with whatever else is in the T&Cs. If you don't want to accept the T&Cs then you can decline. You can negotiate T&Cs when you get a job, and some do move, e.g. you might get more PTO, but others don't move. At the end of the day you get to choose.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> lol, both the left & right tell you that they are the good ones and looking out for you, they just spin it differently.


Again, when it comes to workers, the left is supposed to be the "good guys".



whatithink said:


> No, my argument is that when you accept a job you agree to the T&Cs. If that includes union membership then you agree to that, along with whatever else is in the T&Cs. If you don't want to accept the T&Cs then you can decline. You can negotiate T&Cs when you get a job, and some do move, e.g. you might get more PTO, but others don't move. At the end of the day you get to choose.



If it's a closed shop, you can't negotiate that T&C, even if the employer is amenable.  That's like Polly demanding that if she works there, Molly can't be given more PTO.  Polly can ask for MFN (if anyone gets more PTO, I get it too), though even the MFN rules are getting complicated now.  Actions such as these run a foul of various legal rules such as interference with contractual expectancy and antitrust that unions have exemptions from.

 And particularly if you already work there, you don't get a choice....lose the election, lose your job......if an employer took that position with an action you didn't like (vote for Trump or lose your job) you'd be screaming the red revolution and workers rights.  

It's why there are two ways to skin this cat: Right to work...you can't be forced to join a union (particularly for a public employer union) and the trade off I'd be in favor of is make it easier to certify the union (if Fred and John want to form a union in the mail room, more power to them....if they negotiate a better deal more people will want to join the union).  The other way is to make it democratic year over year....prior to concluding a new deal every year, have people vote to see if they want to keep the union.  My preference if the former, rather than the latter because the latter is just so much more complicated and subject to employer shenanigans.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Again, when it comes to workers, the left is supposed to be the "good guys".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a closed shop, you can't negotiate that T&C, even if the employer is amenable.  That's like Polly demanding that if she works there, Molly can't be given more PTO.  Polly can ask for MFN (if anyone gets more PTO, I get it too), though even the MFN rules are getting complicated now.  Actions such as these run a foul of various legal rules such as interference with contractual expectancy and antitrust that unions have exemptions from.
> 
> And particularly if you already work there, you don't get a choice....lose the election, lose your job......if an employer took that position with an action you didn't like (vote for Trump or lose your job) you'd be screaming the red revolution and workers rights.
> 
> It's why there are two ways to skin this cat: Right to work...you can't be forced to join a union (particularly for a public employer union) and the trade off I'd be in favor of is make it easier to certify the union (if Fred and John want to form a union in the mail room, more power to them....if they negotiate a better deal more people will want to join the union).  The other way is to make it democratic year over year....prior to concluding a new deal every year, have people vote to see if they want to keep the union.  My preference if the former, rather than the latter because the latter is just so much more complicated and subject to employer shenanigans.


You do love your labels and then slotting people into them to suit whatever "argument" you are trying to make, I find it pretty bizarre but each to their own.

The "left" as you label them do tend to give a crap about workers more than others. That doesn't give them a free pass on f-cking things up or being held responsible for it, anymore than anyone else.

Pretty sure, this whole back & forth is because Polly *is* demanding to work there but doesn't want to join a union even though that's a condition of joining. If the existing workers want to change that, then they can, onerous though it may be. If the union is not working for them, then I expect they would - it is America after all.

Generally, as I've said, I have no issues with unions, but have never been in one so have little practical experience of them. I can see, and experience daily, the good things they have delivered to everyone.


----------



## Grace T.

Early Denmark data shows no benefit against severe illness to being boosted relative to shot two except for > 70 year olds. 

I'd say it's enough so that mandates for the young should be paused.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478853178699354112


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> You do love your labels and then slotting people into them to suit whatever "argument" you are trying to make, I find it pretty bizarre but each to their own.
> 
> The "left" as you label them do tend to give a crap about workers more than others. That doesn't give them a free pass on f-cking things up or being held responsible for it, anymore than anyone else.
> 
> Pretty sure, this whole back & forth is because Polly *is* demanding to work there but doesn't want to join a union even though that's a condition of joining. If the existing workers want to change that, then they can, onerous though it may be. If the union is not working for them, then I expect they would - it is America after all.
> 
> Generally, as I've said, I have no issues with unions, but have never been in one so have little practical experience of them. I can see, and experience daily, the good things they have delivered to everyone.


So much wrong:

1. the problem with the left and workers those is they are being hypocritical about it.  The right, well you'd expect as much.  You don't get to be a devil and then claim you are angel.
2. in the hypothetical, it's not a condition set by the employer.  It's set by other employees, which but for the union exemption, would be illegal (you are not allowed to interfere with others ability to contract generally....it's a tort).
3. the point as to the existing workers changing that is that the unions specifically lobbied to make it difficult.  If it's not a big deal and you believe in democracy make it easier...vote yearly.  It is America after all.
4. Unions are great.  That's not the issue.  The issue is whether you can be coerced to join one or if you have the liberty to decline.  Particular for the public unions (e.g. being a cop or fireman or even teacher in some areas), my choice may be union or change careers.
5. Most of the good things that have been delivered have actually been delivered through changes in the employment laws, which have been a much more universal force for change, as opposed to unions, which act selfishly for their workers (as that is their primary source of agency).  I'm not complaining here.....that is indeed their function.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Early Denmark data shows no benefit against severe illness to being boosted relative to shot two except for > 70 year olds.
> 
> I'd say it's enough so that mandates for the young should be paused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478853178699354112


ahhh, the waning will of mandates, especially for children. Instead the adults will strike/sick out for reasons only known to them.  Unfortunately the messaging filled with fear and despair drove many to vaccinate children prematurely.  The dark winter of death, or something uplifting like that.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> So much wrong:
> 
> 1. the problem with the left and workers those is they are being hypocritical about it.  The right, well you'd expect as much.  You don't get to be a devil and then claim you are angel.
> 2. in the hypothetical, it's not a condition set by the employer.  It's set by other employees, which but for the union exemption, would be illegal (you are not allowed to interfere with others ability to contract generally....it's a tort).
> 3. the point as to the existing workers changing that is that the unions specifically lobbied to make it difficult.  If it's not a big deal and you believe in democracy make it easier...vote yearly.  It is America after all.
> 4. Unions are great.  That's not the issue.  The issue is whether you can be coerced to join one or if you have the liberty to decline.  Particular for the public unions (e.g. being a cop or fireman or even teacher in some areas), my choice may be union or change careers.
> 5. Most of the good things that have been delivered have actually been delivered through changes in the employment laws, which have been a much more universal force for change, as opposed to unions, which act selfishly for their workers (as that is their primary source of agency).  I'm not complaining here.....that is indeed their function.


1. The left & workers is like the right & God/religion - they are both hypocritical
2. Its legal, as you say
3. They can change it, not easily but possible. I'd be fine with it being easier to change.
4. See 3.
5. I agree that Employment law is the best way to do things. I'd say though that workers organized and got local (employer) dispensations first and then got their politicians and got laws passed. There are not many left pols left now though - you need those corporate dollars to run.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> 1. The left & workers is like the right & God/religion - they are both hypocritical
> 2. Its legal, as you say
> 3. They can change it, not easily but possible. I'd be fine with it being easier to change.
> 4. See 3.
> 5. I agree that Employment law is the best way to do things. I'd say though that workers organized and got local (employer) dispensations first and then got their politicians and got laws passed. There are not many left pols left now though - you need those corporate dollars to run.


Your 2 is a statement of fact.  That's not the argument.  The question is what should happen.  But for the union exemption, it's not legal so the rule is different than the default.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Your 2 is a statement of fact.  That's not the argument.  The question is what should happen.  But for the union exemption, it's not legal so the rule is different than the default.


p.s. more than half the states are right to work states (public employers excepted).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Your 2 is a statement of fact.  That's not the argument.  The question is what should happen.  But for the union exemption, it's not legal so the rule is different than the default.


Depends on the state. California is not a right to work state.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Early Denmark data shows no benefit against severe illness to being boosted relative to shot two except for > 70 year olds.
> 
> I'd say it's enough so that mandates for the young should be paused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478853178699354112


FYI the graph you show is for PCR+, not severe disease.  It is also not corrected for test frequency.  See


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478482421138046979
for an attempt to properly display the data.  Based on this, if the normalized data was converted to odds risk or VE it would probably look pretty similar to what's being reported out of the UK data.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> FYI the graph you show is for PCR+, not severe disease.  It is also not corrected for test frequency.  See
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478482421138046979
> for an attempt to properly display the data.  Based on this, if the normalized data was converted to odds risk or VE it would probably look pretty similar to what's being reported out of the UK data.


I was more interested in the blub re severity as that goes to the last standing rational for mandates. 

One interesting theory being bandied about is that the reason omicron is running high in the vaccinated is because the vaccinated may have less natural immunity.  I'm not aware of any data backing that up, though, or the viability of said theory.


----------



## Grace T.

I remember when the left screamed this was a conspiracy theory.  At least it doesn't appear serious, if it is yet something again unpleasant.









						COVID vaccines may briefly change your menstrual cycle, but you should still get one
					

The new research affirms what many individuals had reported. But it also shows the changes to the menstrual cycle are mostly minor and brief, more akin to a sore arm than a dangerous reaction.




					www.npr.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> I was more interested in the blub re severity as that goes to the last standing rational for mandates.
> 
> One interesting theory being bandied about is that the reason omicron is running high in the vaccinated is because the vaccinated may have less natural immunity.  I'm not aware of any data backing that up, though, or the viability of said theory.


None of the graphs in the thread speak to severity per se.  There is a graph on hospital admissions.  In the thread I linked, once the data are adjusted for sampling density there is a clear effect of vaccinations and boosters on reducing hospitalizations relative to unvaccinated individuals. That is what the Denmark data show. I will screen shot it at the end, same source, same legend  

The graphs you posted do not show omicron is "running high in the vaccinated". What they show is that vaccination is running high in Denmark (insert Hamlet quote here). Once that sampling density issue is adjusted (which, as has come up repeatedly, is why odds risk or VE are much better ways to present the data)  it is clear that vaccinated or previously infected individuals fare better than immunologically unexposed people.  Since the nAbs induced by infection by prior variants or vaccination do not bind as tightly to omicron S, the only way to offset infection is to have a very high titer of those Abs.  This can be achieved by either a recent booster or a recent infection; that's how it's shaping up.  The "double synergy" may still provoke the most durable response; I'm sure we will see soon enough.  

Until we all get our shiny new anti-omicron Abs (alot of us probably have them already) Omicron is pretty much going to do it wants in terms of infectivity.  Our prior immune exposures are not going to slow it down too much. Not particularly virulent, good luck of the draw. If the human to mouse to human hypothesis is right (I think there are serious arguments against it, but it is definitely plausible), that is a worry.  The main pandemic is not even over yet, and we may already be getting radically different cViruses shape shifting back and forth between different resevoirs.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> p.s. more than half the states are right to work states (public employers excepted).


Right to work for less.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> Right to work for less.


True, but gas is half the price, rent is half and you can be free.  Sign me up   I'm moving sooner or later.  My woke friends pride has them by the arm.  Mask boys!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Right to work for less.


As was stated earlier, they know the T&C and can make their choice to “work for less” as you call it or look for work elsewhere.  Guess the question I have is, less than what?  $50k goes a lot further in some states than others.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Right to work for less.


The economics of this are incredibly complicated. You can’t just compare average wages since this like col and taxes come into play. The question is to what extent do union shop wages (the us doesn’t allow true closed shops) capture through bargaining more money which would otherwise be left on the table without adverse consequences (such as a decrease in supply of jobs which would be dictated by the supply curve).  It’s complicated and there’s not a whole lot of consensus v an open shop (though definitely some against a non union shop). It’s whatever this capture is which is the benefit v the cost of forcing people to choose or lose their jobs that you’d analyze (because as we’ve established in this thread the c/b is everything).  One thing to note is this analysis only works for a private employer where there is competition in the market.  Otherwise it goes to the heart of the matter where we started this discussion: teachers unions trying to close schools (which is not a wage issue) and people having to join a union which stance they disagree with.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> .  The main pandemic is not even over yet, and we may already be getting radically different cViruses shape shifting back and forth between different resevoirs.


Interesting take.  I can guess what your background is (and not in a negative way).  The counterargument is this signals endemic, but that has many different definitions depending on the "expert" you talk to.  I don't have the chops to formally discuss virul mutations at the levels you present.  From a care perspective, this mutation broadens the ability to treat early and to boost/vaccinate the  most vulnerable.  A bit easier to manage in  many ways.

It's a virus we are talking about and we don't know what happens next, if anything.  Thanks for your laydown.


----------



## watfly

Live with it.  Weird that us non-epidemiologists have been saying this at least since fall 2020.









						Former Biden Advisers Urge a Pandemic Strategy for the ‘New Normal’
					

In a striking critique, six prominent health experts who advised President Biden’s transition team called for an entirely new domestic coronavirus strategy.




					www.nytimes.com
				




_In three opinion articles published on Thursday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, they called for Mr. Biden to adopt an entirely new domestic pandemic strategy geared to the “new normal” of living with the virus indefinitely, not to wiping it out._


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Live with it.  Weird that us non-epidemiologists have been saying this at least since fall 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Biden Advisers Urge a Pandemic Strategy for the ‘New Normal’
> 
> 
> In a striking critique, six prominent health experts who advised President Biden’s transition team called for an entirely new domestic coronavirus strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In three opinion articles published on Thursday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, they called for *Mr. Biden to adopt an entirely new domestic pandemic strategy geared to the “new normal” of living with the virus indefinitely, not to wiping it out.*_


Yes, I and we have been saying this for over two years.  Welcome to the New Normal Norm...lol!!!  This is not going away bro.  IHU is up next.  My old pal and I had a very tough talk yesterday.  Dude is worth millions and has had a beach house since he was born and a trust that funds his life forever, so he thinks.  He and I are very different and have different backgrounds, but we love each other.  He and others want to wear me out so I just obey the rules they make up along the way and just sit in the chair and roll my sleeve up and take my shots for the rest of my life every three months.  How many is too many for you Wat Fly? Look man, I need you and many like you badly.  I can;t work now and had to pass up opportunity because of the mask rules.  I am outside salesman and I can't breath or talk very well with a mask on face all day.  No jobs for me man.  Oh well, it's just me and my family I guess that said no at the beginning of all this.  As long as others have food, a job, shelter and access to all the goods, no need worry about others, right?  As long as you obey and keep taking the shots, this will always be Jabhog Day.  I keep praying and hoping men will be men again and see how evil this is and has always been.  Ruining peoples livelihoods, businesses, reputations and just locked out because of deeply held and sacred tribal reasons to never ever allow foreign substances that we will never know about until 2076 what was actually in the injections.  People get fired Wat Fly for not jabbing.  Fired!!!  let that sink in your brain.  Your next unless you keep obeying.  People can;t work in this state unless they get jabbed and people can;t buy stuff without a mask on now.  Three shots + mask and you can shop until you drop!  I got asked to leave a big box grocery store yesterday in a city in OC if no mask.  I was super cool and asked why now? Boss lady said she had no idea but she needs to obey the rules and so do I.  I told her I didn;t like her low energy attitude and she said she appreciated me for not yelling.  I told her I am working on being calm through all this and just no cause issues.  I then told her I feel sick when I wear mask too long and that causes a medical condition for me and I feel locked out to buy food for my family.  The lovely manager offered to do my shopping me.  I was blown away and told her no thanks because that is weird but thank you anyways.


----------



## Ellejustus

Healthy Doctor & Father Dies Hours After Pfizer Jab - MSM Labels it a COVID DEATH
					

This is a prime example of why I do not see this being stopped. This was a doctor. A DOCTOR. DOCTOR. Most don't get it or just want a paycheck and are willing to murder for it. Source: SayNoWayToTheMRNA. More videos you may like: My God what have …




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Live with it.  Weird that us non-epidemiologists have been saying this at least since fall 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Biden Advisers Urge a Pandemic Strategy for the ‘New Normal’
> 
> 
> In a striking critique, six prominent health experts who advised President Biden’s transition team called for an entirely new domestic coronavirus strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In three opinion articles published on Thursday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, they called for Mr. Biden to adopt an entirely new domestic pandemic strategy geared to the “new normal” of living with the virus indefinitely, not to wiping it out._


Their notion of new normal is not the same as yours.  For one, it probably includes masks.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Their notion of new normal is not the same as yours.  For one, it probably includes masks.


Masks are not going to be part of this either.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Their notion of new normal is not the same as yours.  For one, it probably includes masks.


Any movement away from covid zero is welcome. It shifts the Overton window


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Interesting take.  I can guess what your background is (and not in a negative way).  The counterargument is this signals endemic, but that has many different definitions depending on the "expert" you talk to.  I don't have the chops to formally discuss virul mutations at the levels you present.  From a care perspective, this mutation broadens the ability to treat early and to boost/vaccinate the  most vulnerable.  A bit easier to manage in  many ways.
> 
> It's a virus we are talking about and we don't know what happens next, if anything.  Thanks for your laydown.


Endemic is the new herd immunity.  It's a term with built in wiggle room.  One facet of endemic is predictability.  The strains of common cold C-viruses, predictable.  Malaria outbreak, measles, smallpox back in the day, etc, you know what you're going to get. Yearly flu strains, getting less predictable but you've got a pretty good idea.  Although, as in 1918, every once in awhile you get a shocker.  The rapidly evolving swarm of CoV-2 related viruses sloshing around the globe right now are nowhere near predictable yet. Still very much a box of chocolates.  Here, have another one.  No peeking.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Their notion of new normal is not the same as yours.  For one, it probably includes masks.


Maybe, maybe not.  But this is a major sea change in approach in the right direction.  It was a long time coming and shame on them for not recommending this approach earlier when it was so plainly obvious.  We could have avoided so much damage to our society, particularly our children.

In terms of masking, I'd be satisfied if they removed the masking requirement for children at school.  It would defy logic in a "live with it" approach to mask children at school.  The cost/benefit for children doesn't come close to warranting it.   As for me, I just got N95 masks for my trip to Big Sky.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> It was a long time coming and shame on them for not recommending this approach earlier when it was so plainly obvious. * We could have avoided so much damage to our society, particularly our children.*


Yes, the kiddos.  If mom and dad can't work, the kids suffer.  You see, you need to help the parents first and not just give out free tests and a free box lunch.  Dad needs to make a living.  Do you see the problem now?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Live with it.  Weird that us non-epidemiologists have been saying this at least since fall 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Biden Advisers Urge a Pandemic Strategy for the ‘New Normal’
> 
> 
> In a striking critique, six prominent health experts who advised President Biden’s transition team called for an entirely new domestic coronavirus strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In three opinion articles published on Thursday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, they called for Mr. Biden to adopt an entirely new domestic pandemic strategy geared to the “new normal” of living with the virus indefinitely, not to wiping it out._


I gather from that comment that you didn't actually read the three opinion articles.  They call for more funding, closer surveillance of the vaccinated and infected populations, and vaccine mandates, among other things that might cause panic among anti-authoritarians.


----------



## Grace T.

New CDC guidance dropped yesterday.  It lowered the quarantine period for students which is welcomed. But it recommended the suspension of all high risk sports (would include soccer) and extracurriculars in high risk areas.   I can see this impacting places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego given where they are already.









						CDC updates Covid-19 prevention guidance for K-12 schools | CNN
					

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidance for Covid-19 prevention in schools offering kindergarten through 12th-grade classes on Thursday, aligning the recommendations with the agency's recently updated Covid-19 quarantine and isolation guidelines for the general...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I gather from that comment that you didn't actually read the three opinion articles.  They call for more funding, closer surveillance of the vaccinated and infected populations, and vaccine mandates, among other things that might cause panic among anti-authoritarians.


You gather wrong.  I'm all in favor in the change in mindset, but I may disagree with some of the application.  There are bunch of nuggets in all the articles.

One that struck me, which we've been telling Dad4 since the beginning of time:
_"Another part of this humility is recognizing that predictions are necessary but educated guesses, not mathematical certainty."  _Apparently the irony is completely lost on Osterholm who was an author of the essay.  Just one example of scientific hubris.

Another nugget that I've been saying from day one in contrast to blanket restrictions: 
_"The most effective way to prevent transmission of respiratory diseases, including COVID-19, is to eliminate exposure to potentially infectious individuals, encouraging individuals who may have illness to stay home."_


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Endemic is the new herd immunity.  It's a term with built in wiggle room.  One facet of endemic is predictability.  The strains of common cold C-viruses, predictable.  Malaria outbreak, measles, smallpox back in the day, etc, you know what you're going to get. Yearly flu strains, getting less predictable but you've got a pretty good idea.  Although, as in 1918, every once in awhile you get a shocker.  The rapidly evolving swarm of CoV-2 related viruses sloshing around the globe right now are nowhere near predictable yet. Still very much a box of chocolates.  Here, have another one.  No peeking.


The virus and its variants are unpredictable, true.  But those that are vulnerable and the outcomes of infection are very predictable.  Our policies shouldn't revolve around the unpredictability of the virus, but revolve around those that are vulnerable to the virus.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> New CDC guidance dropped yesterday.  It lowered the quarantine period for students which is welcomed. But it recommended the suspension of all high risk sports (would include soccer) and extracurriculars in high risk areas.   I can see this impacting places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego given where they are already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC updates Covid-19 prevention guidance for K-12 schools | CNN
> 
> 
> The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidance for Covid-19 prevention in schools offering kindergarten through 12th-grade classes on Thursday, aligning the recommendations with the agency's recently updated Covid-19 quarantine and isolation guidelines for the general...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


It's coming and we all know why.  Not worth getting all huffy and puffy over my dd last year of HS sports and HS Social fun.  It is what it is and what it is is going to shock everyone.  I will wait this one out and wear my mask like a good little boy.  I already told my kid to live for today and not for soccer.  Do what YOU want.  Open all the possibilities with true freedom for all.  I will manifest and believe that FREEDOM is coming some day.


----------



## espola

You're doing a great job, Ron --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479232927900831746


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You gather wrong.  I'm all in favor in the change in mindset, but I may disagree with some of the application.  There are bunch of nuggets in all the articles.
> 
> One that struck me, which we've been telling Dad4 since the beginning of time:
> _"Another part of this humility is recognizing that predictions are necessary but educated guesses, not mathematical certainty."  _Apparently the irony is completely lost on Osterholm who was an author of the essay.  Just one example of scientific hubris.
> 
> Another nugget that I've been saying from day one in contrast to blanket restrictions:
> _"The most effective way to prevent transmission of respiratory diseases, including COVID-19, is to eliminate exposure to potentially infectious individuals, encouraging individuals who may have illness to stay home."_


There's more to the cookie than just the chocolate chips.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You're doing a great job, Ron --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479232927900831746


So bad that high ranking Democratic politicians chose to vacation in FL while their states are “locking down”. 

Definitely some egg on his face about the tests, but seems to be getting enough right that Pelosi is looking to retire there rather that her home state.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> There's more to the cookie than just the chocolate chips.


For certain.  They need to be made with butter...not margarine, Crisco, or some other substitute.


----------



## Grace T.

A lot of the liberal justices in the OSHA arguments before the Supreme Court just got their COVID facts wrong....









						The Oral Arguments on Biden's Vaccine Mandate Were a Total Disaster
					






					townhall.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> A lot of the liberal justices in the OSHA arguments before the Supreme Court just got their COVID facts wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Oral Arguments on Biden's Vaccine Mandate Were a Total Disaster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com


B, B & B is where we stand today.  The killer B's have ruined our country!!!  Mr. Cruz lied through his teeth with Tucker, who also lies.  It's like listening to two liars lie together.  Only one reason were all watching this movie unfold before our very eyes.  You wouldn't believe it if I told you Grace T so guess what?  We must ALL be shown once and for all the TRUTH.  What you do with the truth is up to you and you alone.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A lot of the liberal justices in the OSHA arguments before the Supreme Court just got their COVID facts wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Oral Arguments on Biden's Vaccine Mandate Were a Total Disaster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com


Kagan also claimed that vaccines are "best geared to stop the virus".  She needs to update her science research.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Kagan also claimed that vaccines are "best geared to stop the virus".  She needs to update her science research.


Did you hear what she said about the "brain dead fetus?"


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> Kagan also claimed that vaccines are "best geared to stop the virus".  She needs to update her science research.


Well because by the original definition that’s what Vaccines do.  When are we going to stop calling this a vaccine and call it what it is, a preventative treatment or just a booster.


----------



## what-happened

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So bad that high ranking Democratic politicians chose to vacation in FL while their states are “locking down”.
> 
> Definitely some egg on his face about the tests, but seems to be getting enough right that Pelosi is looking to retire there rather that her home state.


Political BS once again.  The expired tests are likley irrelevent. The time to test at a high volume has maybe come and gone.  Home testing for Delta and previous variant was pretty accurate.  This new variant doesn't test very well in at home tests.  Plenty of false negatives to be found.  I'm sure plenty of people took these tests just before the holiday, many getting false positives and getting on planes/trains/automobiles to grandma's  house.  You see where we are now - a surge of infections...hospitalizations haven't climbed and likely won't significantly.  Go home, gargle some mouthwash, ride out your mild disease at home for a few days.  Or follow whatever the guidance the CDC is providing today.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Masks are not going to be part of this either.


I have no doubt that you will continue to party like it’s 1999.  Most of Phoenix will be like you.  Other areas will mask up during covid/flu season and have less covid and flu.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> The virus and its variants are unpredictable, true.  But those that are vulnerable and the outcomes of infection are very predictable.  Our policies shouldn't revolve around the unpredictability of the virus, but revolve around those that are vulnerable to the virus.


For the immediate short term I largely agree with you. I'll leave policy to others; there is no shortage of perspectives. I'm just glad I don't have to make those calls.  Going forward, I hope your confidence in the predictability of who is and is not vulnerable remains well founded.  The virus is evolving-amazing rapidly-and its virulence profile is under neither positive nor negative selection.  The one perspective I will represent is that our kids will almost certainly be dealing with re-emergent features of this pandemic throughout their lifetimes.  It's possible that we really should be calling omicron Cov-3.


----------



## espola

I guess it's official now (sort of).  Justice Gorsuch says SCOTUS discussion that flu causes hundreds of thousands of deaths every year.

CDC records --









						Burden of Influenza
					

Learn about how CDC estimates the burden of seasonal influenza in the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Well because by the original definition that’s what Vaccines do.  When are we going to stop calling this a vaccine and call it what it is, a preventative treatment or just a booster.


In what way is it not a vaccine?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I have no doubt that you will continue to party like it’s 1999.  Most of Phoenix will be like you.  Other areas will mask up during covid/flu season and have less covid and flu.



And there it is....the quiet part said out loud....what you've been accused of but have dodged: that you would like the new normal to be perpetual masking during covid/flu season.  No thanks.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the immediate short term I largely agree with you. I'll leave policy to others; there is no shortage of perspectives. I'm just glad I don't have to make those calls.  *Going forward, I hope your confidence in the predictability of who is and is not vulnerable remains well founded.*  The virus is evolving-amazing rapidly-and its virulence profile is under neither positive nor negative selection.  The one perspective I will represent is that our kids will almost certainly be dealing with re-emergent features of this pandemic throughout their lifetimes.  It's possible that we really should be calling omicron Cov-3.


I won't say I'm confident, but we should make decisions based on the best available data we have and not based upon speculation of a potential long term risk.   When you do make decisions on potential long term risk, you often do so at the expense of actual long term negative impacts (ie like closing in-person education.)


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the immediate short term I largely agree with you. I'll leave policy to others; there is no shortage of perspectives. I'm just glad I don't have to make those calls.  Going forward, I hope your confidence in the predictability of who is and is not vulnerable remains well founded.  The virus is evolving-amazing rapidly-and its virulence profile is under neither positive nor negative selection.  The one perspective I will represent is that our kids will almost certainly be dealing with re-emergent features of this pandemic throughout their lifetimes.  It's possible that we really should be calling omicron Cov-3.


There are other coronaviruses.  My friend caught Covid delta, Covid41 and covid omicron all in one year.  One of the things that made this so deadly (like smallpox with the Inca, measles with the Hawaiians) was that it was novel.  This isn't unique in that respect.  Children die of flu and RSV each year (both of which are deadlier to them).  It's possible this mutates somewhere down the road into something far deadlier and everything has to lock down again, but then that's true of flu, the other coronaviruses, the enteroviruses, adenoviruses and RSV.  It's the human condition.

The thing that still has me mouth agape was the absolute hubris of some people, including many in the scientific and medical communities.  As if we had evolved to a point that these pesky viruses that have plagued our ancestors for millenia no longer should be of concern to us, because we had evolved to the point our technology could control or "shut down" the virus.  While we've made rapid advancements and even developed a vaccine in record time, the human species now has egg on its face for its hubris.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> In what way is it not a vaccine?


I’m what way is it a vaccine since it does not provide immunity to the disease for which it is intended?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I’m what way is it a vaccine since it does not provide immunity to the disease for which it is intended?


No vaccine is 100% effective.  This vaccine triggers a beneficial response in the human immune system just as intended.  Playing around with word games is just politics.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> No vaccine is 100% effective.  *This vaccine triggers a beneficial response in the human immune system just as intended*.  Playing around with word games is just politics.


Benefits to WHO?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> hat you've been accused of but have dodged: that you would like the new normal to be perpetual masking during covid/flu season. No thanks.


Most people will say no thanks. By that I mean a majority of people. Bank on it.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> No vaccine is 100% effective.  This vaccine triggers a beneficial response in the human immune system just as intended.  Playing around with word games is just politics.


Like the new definition of "anti-vaxxer".


----------



## Ellejustus

*Californians fleeing for Texas so fast U-Haul runs out of trucks for them: report*
*California and Illinois saw the largest net-loss of U-Haul trucks*

The Texas economy is growing fast," stated Kristina Ramos, U-Haul Company of South Austin president. "With a strong job market and low cost of living, it’s a no-brainer. Texas doesn’t have an income tax, so families get more for their money."









						Californians fleeing for Texas so fast U-Haul runs out of trucks for them: report
					

Texas took top spot on the list after briefly falling to second to Florida in 2019 and Tennessee in 2020.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Playing around with word games is just politics.


That's funny. And the vaccines were never marketed as transmission blockers and immunity providers.  You are a master of revionsist history.

Typical pharma play book.  There is a reason why we are only 1 of  2 countries in the world that allow pharmaceuticals to be advertised.  And to allow them to market EUA drugs is shameful.  Certainy is profitable though.

I'll stand by for your nonansweranswer


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> The economics of this are incredibly complicated. You can’t just compare average wages since this like col and taxes come into play. The question is to what extent do union shop wages (the us doesn’t allow true closed shops) capture through bargaining more money which would otherwise be left on the table without adverse consequences (such as a decrease in supply of jobs which would be dictated by the supply curve).  It’s complicated and there’s not a whole lot of consensus v an open shop (though definitely some against a non union shop). It’s whatever this capture is which is the benefit v the cost of forcing people to choose or lose their jobs that you’d analyze (because as we’ve established in this thread the c/b is everything).  One thing to note is this analysis only works for a private employer where there is competition in the market.  Otherwise it goes to the heart of the matter where we started this discussion: teachers unions trying to close schools (which is not a wage issue) and people having to join a union which stance they disagree with.


Only lawyers make things complicated.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> As was stated earlier, they know the T&C and can make their choice to “work for less” as you call it or look for work elsewhere.  Guess the question I have is, less than what?  $50k goes a lot further in some states than others.


Less than prevailing wage.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I guess it's official now (sort of).  Justice Gorsuch says SCOTUS discussion that flu causes hundreds of thousands of deaths every year.
> 
> CDC records --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burden of Influenza
> 
> 
> Learn about how CDC estimates the burden of seasonal influenza in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov











						Flu Kills 646,000 People Worldwide Each Year: Study
					

Seasonal flu kills 291,000 to 646,000 people worldwide each year, according to a new estimate that's higher than the previous one of 250,000 to 500,000 deaths a year.




					www.medicinenet.com


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Less than prevailing wage.


Which prevailing wage?  Mean, median, or mode?

Yes, some states actually use mode.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Which prevailing wage?  Mean, median, or mode?
> 
> Yes, some states actually use mode.


Meh...most economics believe the union wage premium exists.  It's anywhere from 3-20% and dependent on industry (one example: public school v. private school teacher wages based on years of experience).  Closed shops are able to extract more (by exercising monopoly power) than union shops than open shops than non union shops.    It's large in the public sector than the private because of regulatory capture.  You can't avoid the supply curve, though, and the premium has to be made up elsewhere (....it must come from somewhere....if you take it from the capitalist overlords, which means lower profits which means lower investments in said industry).  The union wage premium, though, has dropped for a lot of industries subject to non-union international competition....in said cases the unions just wind up pricing themselves out in the US to lower cost overseas firms.  It's one of the theories for why unions have declined in goods creation industries, but are robust in services and public sector industries.  TANSTAAFL and there are costs for every intervention a government makes.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Meh...most economics believe the union wage premium exists.  It's anywhere from 3-20% and dependent on industry (one example: public school v. private school teacher wages based on years of experience).  Closed shops are able to extract more (by exercising monopoly power) than union shops than open shops than non union shops.    It's large in the public sector than the private because of regulatory capture.  You can't avoid the supply curve, though, and the premium has to be made up elsewhere (....it must come from somewhere....if you take it from the capitalist overlords, which means lower profits which means lower investments in said industry).  The union wage premium, though, has dropped for a lot of industries subject to non-union international competition....in said cases the unions just wind up pricing themselves out in the US to lower cost overseas firms.  It's one of the theories for why unions have declined in goods creation industries, but are robust in services and public sector industries.  TANSTAAFL and there are costs for every intervention a government makes.


When I was affordable housing business, prevailing wage added about 15-20% to the total cost.  This was 17 years ago, so I don't know how accurate it is now.  Prevailing wage became required for any projects we used public funding, which wasn't conducive to actually building affordable housing.  Hence why we moved on from the industry.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> No vaccine is 100% effective.  This vaccine triggers a beneficial response in the human immune system just as intended.  Playing around with word games is just politics.


By definition vaccine = immunized


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Less than prevailing wage.


In that particular area, correct?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> By definition vaccine = immunized


Better than not.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Better than not.


Then it’s not a vaccine…..Not saying it doesn’t have a net positive impact, but it isn’t a vaccine.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Then it’s not a vaccine…..Not saying it doesn’t have a net positive impact, but it isn’t a vaccine.


If we use that definition, then the world has no vaccines.

They pretty much all have percent effective < 100%.

I don't think you will find any vaccine which makes you 100% immune to every new strain of the same disease.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> When I was affordable housing business, prevailing wage added about 15-20% to the total cost.  This was 17 years ago, so I don't know how accurate it is now.  Prevailing wage became required for any projects we used public funding, which wasn't conducive to actually building affordable housing.  Hence why we moved on from the industry.


It's more now. I deal with it on govt jobs.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> It's more now. I deal with it on govt jobs.


This study concluded that prevailing wage adds 37% to the cost of construction in California.  And people wonder why we have a shortage of affordable housing?



			https://www.mendocinocounty.org/home/showpublisheddocument/23824/636734750056200000#:~:text=The%20authors%20estimated%20that%20the,of%20an%20affordable%20housing%20unit.&text=The%20goal%20of%20this%20study,residential%20construction%20projects%20in%20California
		

.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> This study concluded that prevailing wage adds 37% to the cost of construction in California.  And people wonder why we have a shortage of affordable housing?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.mendocinocounty.org/home/showpublisheddocument/23824/636734750056200000#:~:text=The%20authors%20estimated%20that%20the,of%20an%20affordable%20housing%20unit.&text=The%20goal%20of%20this%20study,residential%20construction%20projects%20in%20California
> 
> 
> .


Again, at least that much. In my experience it's 40-50%.
The planner estimators for the agencies I work for know it's a waste, we know it's a waste, everyone pretty much knows it's a waste. But it is the law. Just another example of the government wasting our money. I pay a guy $60 an hour to push a broom around.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> Again, at least that much. In my experience it's 40-50%.
> The planner estimators for the agencies I work for know it's a waste, we know it's a waste, everyone pretty much knows it's a waste. But it is the law. Just another example of the government wasting our money. I pay a guy $60 an hour to push a broom around.


Crazy and totally artificial.  Just shows you the power the unions have over the government.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This study concluded that prevailing wage adds 37% to the cost of construction in California.  And people wonder why we have a shortage of affordable housing?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.mendocinocounty.org/home/showpublisheddocument/23824/636734750056200000#:~:text=The%20authors%20estimated%20that%20the,of%20an%20affordable%20housing%20unit.&text=The%20goal%20of%20this%20study,residential%20construction%20projects%20in%20California
> 
> 
> .


Half right.  Prevailing wage does raise the cost of public projects, and California’s version is worse than most.  Davis-Bacon is one of the main reasons it is so hard to build decent school facilities.

However, you can’t blame housing costs on prevailing wage.  Chances are, zoning laws make it illegal to build additional housing on your street.  Or my street.  Or Bald Ref’s street.  Or anywhere else even remotely close to work.  Even if costs suddenly dropped, you still couldn’t build much because the cities wouldn’t let you.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Then it’s not a vaccine…..Not saying it doesn’t have a net positive impact, but it isn’t a vaccine.


If all you have is denial, it's best that you stick with that.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> If all you have is denial, it's best that you stick with that.


And what exactly am I supposedly in denial about?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Half right.  Prevailing wage does raise the cost of public projects, and California’s version is worse than most.  Davis-Bacon is one of the main reasons it is so hard to build decent school facilities.
> 
> However, you can’t blame housing costs on prevailing wage.  Chances are, zoning laws make it illegal to build additional housing on your street.  Or my street.  Or Bald Ref’s street.  Or anywhere else even remotely close to work.  Even if costs suddenly dropped, you still couldn’t build much because the cities wouldn’t let you.


I really meant in regards to affordable housing, which prevailing wages absolutely drive the cost up.  Also California cities have affordable housing requirements set by the State so their anxious to attract affordable housing. However our State "leadership" is too stupid to understand that their requirement to use prevailing wage for the use of any public financing makes it that much more difficult to build affordable housing.


----------



## Grace T.

Cosigned.....









						Why I Soured on the Democrats
					

COVID school policies set me adrift from my tribe.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T.

True, the US will perform worse than Europe because of our vaxx rate.  In particular, the fact that the boosters haven't been taken up robustly by the 60+ crowd will hurt.   One of the things the NE should have done is a nursing home booster outright similar to what florida did.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479631024523034631


----------



## Grace T.

Also true.  The CDC director who signed off on zero COVID is either going to have to dig in her heels which will put her into conflict with Biden, or climb down which will put her into conflict with her supporters which already made her revise once the quarantine rules when she loosened them too far.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479631966437707776


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I don't think you will find any vaccine which makes you 100% immune to every new strain of the same disease.


Not helping your “mandate” argument.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Not helping your “mandate” argument.


Just pointing out that your definition of “vaccine“ is hogwash.  

Someone on Fox told you that the covid shot isn’t a vaccine, and you dutifully believed them.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Just pointing out that your definition of “vaccine“ is hogwash.
> 
> Someone on Fox told you that the covid shot isn’t a vaccine, and you dutifully believed them.


Hope thinking that way makes you feel better.


----------



## Desert Hound

Seems like a good quarantine idea.









						Cy-Fair ISD teacher bonds out of jail after allegedly putting 13-year-old in trunk for fear of COVID-19 exposure, officials say
					

A Cy-Fair ISD teacher who was charged with endangering a child has since bonded out of jail after her 13-year-old son was found in the trunk of her car at a drive-thru COVID testing site on Monday, officials say.




					www.click2houston.com


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Hope thinking that way makes you feel better.


The alternative is that you are a truly deep thinker with strong opinions about what does and does not qualify as a vaccine.  It grates at you to no end that Salk’s deficient injection keeps getting referred to as a smallpox vaccine, when true credit should have been given to the Soviet effort.  But you’re too shy to explain your reasoning on the topic.

Yeah, maybe.  Or maybe you are just parroting what you heard from Fox and Friends.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> The alternative is that you are a truly deep thinker with strong opinions about what does and does not qualify as a vaccine.  It grates at you to no end that Salk’s deficient injection keeps getting referred to as a smallpox vaccine, when true credit should have been given to the Soviet effort.  But you’re too shy to explain your reasoning on the topic.
> 
> Yeah, maybe.  Or maybe you are just parroting what you heard from Fox and Friends.


Yah, would have been nice to not have so many break their cases of Small Pox this year.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Seems like a good quarantine idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cy-Fair ISD teacher bonds out of jail after allegedly putting 13-year-old in trunk for fear of COVID-19 exposure, officials say
> 
> 
> A Cy-Fair ISD teacher who was charged with endangering a child has since bonded out of jail after her 13-year-old son was found in the trunk of her car at a drive-thru COVID testing site on Monday, officials say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.click2houston.com


In high school, we used to fit two in the trunk of the car for the drive-ins.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The alternative is that you are a truly deep thinker with strong opinions about what does and does not qualify as a vaccine.  It grates at you to no end that Salk’s deficient injection keeps getting referred to as a smallpox vaccine, when true credit should have been given to the Soviet effort.  But you’re too shy to explain your reasoning on the topic.
> 
> Yeah, maybe.  Or maybe you are just parroting what you heard from Fox and Friends.


Ill bite.  Who on Fox said the vaccine isnt really a vaccine?  I dont even think wack-a-doodle Tucker has said that.  Some have been critical of its effectiveness for preventing infection which is warranted.  Theyve been critical of mandates although ironically the company sort of has one.  They've have been pro-vax and never told anyone not to get a vax, they're just not koolaid drinkers about it.

I suspect youve been getting your Fox news from CNN.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Ill bite.  Who on Fox said the vaccine isnt really a vaccine?  I dont even think wack-a-doodle Tucker has said that.  Some have been critical of its effectiveness for preventing infection which is warranted.  Theyve been critical of mandates although ironically the company sort of has one.  They've have been pro-vax and never told anyone not to get a vax, they're just not koolaid drinkers about it.
> 
> I suspect youve been getting your Fox news from CNN.


Carlson has not said those words explicitly, but he has said that the vaccine doesn't work and that it actually makes people sick to the point of death.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Better than not.





espola said:


> Carlson has not said those words explicitly, but he has said that the vaccine doesn't work and that it actually makes people sick to the point of death.


You BETTER Hope what's stated below is NOT True !


All symptoms of the experimental " Vaccines "....

Guillain-Barré syndrome
Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis
Transverse myelitis
Encephalitis/encephalomyelitis/meningoencephalitis/meningitis/encepholapathy
Convulsions/seizures
Stroke
Narcolepsy and cataplexy
Anaphylaxis
Acute myocardial infraction
Myocarditis/pericarditis
Autoimmune disease
Deaths
Pregnancy and birth outcomes
Other acute demyelinating diseases
Non-anaphylactic allergic reactions
Thrombocytopenia
Disseminated intravascular coagulation
Venous thromboembolism
Arthritis and arthralgia/joint pain
Kawasaki disease
Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in CHILDREN
Vaccine enhanced disease


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Carlson has not said those words explicitly, but he has said that the vaccine doesn't work and that it actually makes people sick to the point of death.


When?


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> You BETTER Hope what's stated below is NOT True !
> 
> 
> All symptoms of the experimental " Vaccines "....
> 
> Guillain-Barré syndrome
> Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis
> Transverse myelitis
> Encephalitis/encephalomyelitis/meningoencephalitis/meningitis/encepholapathy
> Convulsions/seizures
> Stroke
> Narcolepsy and cataplexy
> Anaphylaxis
> Acute myocardial infraction
> Myocarditis/pericarditis
> Autoimmune disease
> Deaths
> Pregnancy and birth outcomes
> Other acute demyelinating diseases
> Non-anaphylactic allergic reactions
> Thrombocytopenia
> Disseminated intravascular coagulation
> Venous thromboembolism
> Arthritis and arthralgia/joint pain
> Kawasaki disease
> Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in CHILDREN
> Vaccine enhanced disease


What?  No bonitis?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> When?


Often.


----------



## Ellejustus

Intensive Care Doctor Tells UK Health Secretary Sajid Javid He doesn't Believe in Vaccination
					

Steve James, a consultant anaesthetist at King's College Hospital in London, who has worked in the ICU since early 2020 treating Covid patients, told Sajid Javid why he did not believe in vaccination.  The Health Secretary politely expressed his d…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> What?  No bonitis?


You really should learn to spell your attempted insults.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Just pointing out that your definition of “vaccine“ is hogwash.
> 
> Someone on Fox told you that the covid shot isn’t a vaccine, and you dutifully believed them.


To be fair, it's not just fox, it's plenty of news outlets, medical professionals, etc who have the same opinon.  And the CDC did change their definition.  

Matter of semantics really.  You can compare/contract vaccines all day long.  The flu is the one most compared to.  I know of no other vaccine that requires a booster every 4-6 months for the unforseeable future.  The flue requires a yearly shot.  Last time I check, SARS-COV-2 vaccines are relatively new, meaning very little long term data.  

How many boosters are you willing to take from a vaccine that hasn't been cleared by the FDA?


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Seems like a good quarantine idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cy-Fair ISD teacher bonds out of jail after allegedly putting 13-year-old in trunk for fear of COVID-19 exposure, officials say
> 
> 
> A Cy-Fair ISD teacher who was charged with endangering a child has since bonded out of jail after her 13-year-old son was found in the trunk of her car at a drive-thru COVID testing site on Monday, officials say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.click2houston.com


is this the covidian @espola has been searching for?  pretty good example of one.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Carlson has not said those words explicitly, but he has said that the vaccine doesn't work and that it actually makes people sick to the point of death.


They don't work very well and there have been reported cases of death.  VAERS is certainly not the most reliable data dump but it's all we have in terms of adverse events reporting.   

But maybe we'll go back to arguing: died with covid or from covid?


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> To be fair, it's not just fox, it's plenty of news outlets, medical professionals, etc who have the same opinon.  And the CDC did change their definition.
> 
> Matter of semantics really.  You can compare/contract vaccines all day long.  The flu is the one most compared to.  I know of no other vaccine that requires a booster every 4-6 months for the unforseeable future.  The flue requires a yearly shot.  Last time I check, SARS-COV-2 vaccines are relatively new, meaning very little long term data.
> 
> *How many boosters are you willing to take from a vaccine that hasn't been cleared by the FDA?*


I asked a dear old pal of mine that same question and he hung up the phone on me.  The people who got thr triple jab and now boosters are not the same human I knew before the jab and for sure before HRC lost in 2016.  5 years into this mess and these people have lost their minds.  The jabs did not help them and now their all made at me because I'm super healthy now.  Jealousy is insane.


----------



## what-happened

Ellejustus said:


> I asked a dear old pal of mine that same question and he hung up the phone on me.  The people who got thr triple jab and now boosters are not the same human I knew before the jab and for sure before HRC lost in 2016.  5 years into this mess and these people have lost their minds.  The jabs did not help them and now their all made at me because I'm super healthy now.  Jealousy is insane.


Everyone that isn't living in isolation from the world is eventually going to get this new variant.  I know that sounds crazy but it's likely a true statement - and I certainly did not make the statement up.  Vaccine and natural immunity will not stop it.  It's not going to be as pathogenic as the previous variants, which is realy good news.  Vaccine/natural immunity will prevent severe disease...we think, maybe.   Omicron is infecting people who've been infected and then later vaccinated.  Happens daily.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> To be fair, it's not just fox, it's plenty of news outlets, medical professionals, etc who have the same opinon.  And the CDC did change their definition.
> 
> Matter of semantics really.  You can compare/contract vaccines all day long.  The flu is the one most compared to.  I know of no other vaccine that requires a booster every 4-6 months for the unforseeable future.  The flue requires a yearly shot.  Last time I check, SARS-COV-2 vaccines are relatively new, meaning very little long term data.
> 
> How many boosters are you willing to take from a vaccine that hasn't been cleared by the FDA?


So the fact that the current crop of vaccines has cut down on deaths and hospitalizations isn’t enough for you? All or nothing? Perfect or nothing?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> To be fair, it's not just fox, it's plenty of news outlets, medical professionals, etc who have the same opinon.  And the CDC did change their definition.
> 
> Matter of semantics really.  You can compare/contract vaccines all day long.  The flu is the one most compared to.  I know of no other vaccine that requires a booster every 4-6 months for the unforseeable future.  The flue requires a yearly shot.  Last time I check, SARS-COV-2 vaccines are relatively new, meaning very little long term data.
> 
> How many boosters are you willing to take from a vaccine that hasn't been cleared by the FDA?


Gunning for Tucker's job?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> is this the covidian @espola has been searching for?  pretty good example of one.


I'm just looking for a definition.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Gunning for Tucker's job?


You for Sotomayor's?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Gunning for Tucker's job?


Rabble rousing pays well these days, to a certain audience.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I'm just looking for a definition.


They get confused easily, comes with their territory. Devil in the details and all that. That’s why simplistic, authoritarian wins their heart.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Often.


Link?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I'm just looking for a definition.


Here you go sir


Someone who has elevated COVID-19 prevention or mitigation to the point of a religious persuasion, like they have become a zealot and judge and shame others for their “lesser” measures. A COVIDIAN does everything with COVID-19 prevention in mind, especially for others to see.
“Look at those two COVIDIANS! They live in the same house, but they’re social distancing on their daily walk together!” Or, “I wash my hands frequently and wear a mask , but I’ve not gone off the deep end and become a COVIDIAN or something like that!”


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Rabble rousing pays well these days, to a certain audience.


I'd rather have it come from entertainment news than a supreme court justice or president.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'd rather have it come from entertainment news than a supreme court justice or president.


Irony abounds.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Irony abounds.


You don't agree?  Nothing ironic about it.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I'm just looking for a definition.


Why?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Why?


Do you know the answer?


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Do you know the answer?*











						ANOTHER PLAYER COLLAPSES DURING MATCH - EGYPT
					

IN 1994 160 NATIONS AGREED TO REDUCE THE WORLD POPULATION TO 800 MILLION BY 2030 https://www.bitchute.com/video/7JIUDl9ZIFHP/  sharing video clips not shown by fake news media. copyright owned by animotica  U.S. ARMY LT. COLONEL THERESA LONG EXPOSES…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you know the answer?


Yes, espola provided it.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you know the answer?





N00B said:


> Yes, espola provided it.


Thus the question directed at him.

Why?


----------



## NorCalDad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478611650760437765


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478611650760437765


This Ian Ricksecker? Appears to be @dad4's doppelganger.

Ian Ricksecker is a software engineer with a specialty in security and risk management, and the father of a third grade student in San Diego Unified School.

Ian Ricksecker
@IanRicksecker
We must suppress and eliminate COVID. With its long-term complications and transmissibility, this is not a disease that we can accept as "endemic".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Yes, espola provided it.


Yet it alludes you?


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> This Ian Ricksecker? Appears to be @dad4's doppelganger.
> 
> Ian Ricksecker is a software engineer with a specialty in security and risk management, and the father of a third grade student in San Diego Unified School.
> 
> Ian Ricksecker
> @IanRicksecker
> We must suppress and eliminate COVID. With its long-term complications and transmissibility, this is not a disease that we can accept as "endemic".


Dads HS Band!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

They told you - Don't take the vaccine
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus

I knew something was up.  My dear pal is hypnotized and under some sort of spell, I kid you not.  I told him he's not the same and he got all mad at me.  This guy never snaps.  I'm usually the one "snapping" all the time.  Not now.  Now I'm the calm one, at peace, healthy and happy.  He has all the money one needs and he is stressed out, not at peace, unhealthy ((drinks booze everyday)) and just unhappy and scared out of his mind.  He has fear virus and it's got him like nothing I've seen before.  Too many shots maybe?


----------



## Ellejustus

*California went from mandating vaccines to forcing COVID-positive health care employees to work*
*The guidance is facing pushback, but one health expert says the move isn't unprecedented*

The health department issued the guidance Saturday, and outlines that healthcare workers don’t have to isolate or test negative and *can immediately return to work if they are asymptomatic.  *

P.S.  I sure hope I don't have to look at this kind nurse as the last person i ever see alive.  This is crazy ass bat poop is all I can say.

*"They told you what to do and you didn't listen.  Now you die alone with me."*


----------



## Ellejustus

More scare photos for all of us to see as the last days of death in hospital.  Look at the nurse dude's mask shield.  If you listen to the radio in socal, the commercials are insane and I'll leave it at that.  The masks are back and the fear is at an all time hi.


----------



## Ellejustus

Kim, 59, who represents parts of Orange, Los Angeles and San Bernardino counties, said she was feeling fine and that she had received both vaccinations and a booster shot. While she recovers, Kim said she “will be proxy voting as I monitor my symptoms.”

OC Congresswoman Young Kim tests positive for COVID-19.  She say's she feels great and has had two shots and her booster.  The new normal now is for us is to get two shots + booster + wear mask + more boosters= You will get Covid but feel fine. 

Those who refuse to take the shots because of deeply held religious & sacred bloodline rights will end up in the hospital eventually with those nurses some say.  I don't know you guys, this is all looking backwards in my brain and not really the truth.  Those who have been hypnotized, I'm working on a solution to snap your ass back to reality.  Be patient with me because I do care for all of you still, even though so many have made fun of me over the years. "Moron" "Idiot" "On medication" "fool" "hypocrite" "Full of BS" and so much more.  You guys are so much better then me and have it all.  I so envy you....lol!!!  I don't hold it against you because you know nothing and your blind and now hypnotized.  I hear to help you see the TRUTH. It's my roll in all this.  I am the voice of reason because I came here as an Orphan and with no parents to control me.  I see that now at 55 years old.  It's what makes me different then most of you.  We lied and lied and cheated so much as a country and killed so many babies before birth that the day of reckoning is here.  It's here, no going back to normal.  Two choices to choose from, choose wisely this time because all eyes are on you and you will live with this choice forever.


----------



## Ellejustus

Check this out and see if this rings a bell in any of your brains........

*Facebook parent company Meta signs 'largest ever' lease in downtown Austin: report*

Street address is on West* 6*th Street.  *66* floors.  *33* floors for biz and *33* floors for residual housing.  I love & know numbers very well and I see clearly how numbers are used as symbolism for one side.  It's their Morse Code so to speak.  I know, I know it's all just a coincidence and I dumb dumb.  It's cool you guys, some day you will see the TRUTH.  Like doubting Thomas, sometimes you have to show people the truth because if you tell them the truth, they will tell you are stupid.  My whole life I was labeled "dumb dumb" and usually by a teacher or from smart lawyers and of course my scientist pals and math teachers thought I was nuts to bring God into the equation.  They only use their left brain.  Logic & reason is all they have. They have no empathy, which comes from right side of the brain.  I have both as a man and that makes me very unique.  Not better, just different then the rest.


----------



## Ellejustus

Triple Jabbed Geraldo has Covid.  This guy is a liar too.  Look at how we went Golden Gate on folks likes me who chose a holistic approach.



I lost over 40 pounds instead of Jabs and my reward is to be shut off by society and not able to make a living unless I obey Geraldo's way of life.  I cut out meat and booze and my reward is not being able to work, buy and sell unless I obey and take three shots and boosters and wear mask like Geraldo for the rest of my life.  WHO just got Covid?  Geraldo did.  You seriously cant make this stuff up.  Plus, Sean Hannity is now in love with Amelia over at Fox.  WHO knew all this?  I don't watch Tel A Vision so this was new news to me.  Wow, wtf happen to the earth and all these great guys?


----------



## Brav520

NEW - Director Walensky says CDC will provide data on "how many of the 836,000 deaths in the U.S. linked to Covid are from Covid or how many are with Covid," and adds "Omicron has just been with us for a few weeks."


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> This Ian Ricksecker? Appears to be @dad4's doppelganger.
> 
> Ian Ricksecker is a software engineer with a specialty in security and risk management, and the father of a third grade student in San Diego Unified School.
> 
> Ian Ricksecker
> @IanRicksecker
> We must suppress and eliminate COVID. With its long-term complications and transmissibility, this is not a disease that we can accept as "endemic".


Here's the rebuttal thread: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479773960279633925
It's more of an argument for vaccinations (notice I didn't say mandates)


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Here's the rebuttal thread:
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479773960279633925
> It's more of an argument for vaccinations (notice I didn't say mandates)


The arguments for and against vaccines have been beaten to death several times on this thread. Vaccine mandates, on the other hand, are still a dynamic topic.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> *Vaccine mandates, on the other hand, are still a dynamic topic.*


Yes sir.  Let's see what happens.  I can't work, buy or sell unless I comply with rules made by man.  I have my private cave all ready if this country forces me and my family to inject a foreign substance in my arms as long as they say so.  This substance was made and produced from bats, human dna, beagles, rats and monkeys from a Wuhan lab.  I WILL NOT comply.


----------



## Ellejustus

Boom!!!  Total losers have been trying to go all Dualistic on our country for years.  They love confusion, misinformation, destruction, war and death and they lie & cheat to win.  Nice try losers who cheat all the time to get ahead of the rest of us normal people.  Oh my, I cant wait for justice to come.  This is not about right or left, only what is right for, "We The People."  This is not for "We For The Left Only" or "We For The Right Only."  No, this can never happen again.  WE have to go back to each individual having his or her basic right to life and the fucking pursuit of happiness.  This shit is not making any of us normal folks happy at all.  Look, if we can;t make sure babies and little children have rights and are protected by monsters, then we can;t have a happy place to live.


----------



## Ellejustus

Great Job Mike on losing 90 pounds.  He feels better and is healthy.  Go figure!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Yah don’t say…:.









						El Salvador Promotes Fitness to Fight Covid | centralamerica.com
					

As El Salvador promotes fitness to fight Covid, we offer praise where it's due and ask if it's the first country to actually take this official step.




					www.centralamerica.com


----------



## Desert Hound

And now for the rest of the story. This one had husker and espola up for weeks on end.

Even after Rittenhouse was found not guilty they were sure there was going to be some big weapons charge.

The reality?


_The attorney for the man who purchased the rifle for Kyle Rittenhouse signed a plea agreement with the state of Wisconsin to dismiss two felony charges against him.

If the judge signs off, Dominick Black's plea deal will result in a noncriminal citation, according to court documents filed Friday. He will be required to pay a fine of $2,000.









						Man who purchased AR-15 for Rittenhouse reaches plea agreement
					

The attorney for the man who purchased the rifle for Kyle Rittenhouse signed a plea agreement with the state of Wisconsin to dismiss two felony charges against him.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				



_
By the way how are the insurrection trials going husker and espola?

To date not a single person has been charged with insurrection/treason etc. Almost all charges have been for trespassing and other similarly minor charges.

I do however suspect the 2 of you spent a lot of time on CNN and similar sites on Jan 6 a couple of days ago being spoon fed your news.

I think the best part of the day that really highlights how serious everything is, is when Pelosi and Co wrapped up their antics for the day with a song from the cast members of Hamilton.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> *I do however suspect the 2 of you spent a lot of time on CNN and similar sites on Jan 6 a couple of days ago being spoon fed your news.*


Espola & Husler


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478611650760437765


I think we've established this is just fear mongering.

Related to just a "mild cold".  I know a bunch of people in San Diego that have gotten Covid since around Christmas.  It is not a mild cold, its a bad flu, like a week in bed bad flu.  Lingering fever although not very high.  Whereas, I know a bunch of people outside of San Diego, in particular, Utah and Colorado that have gotten it recently and it is a mild cold or less.

Every single individual above has at least been double vaxxed and in some cases boosted.  I wonder what explains the difference in symptoms.  Is Delta still dominant in San Diego?


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> I think we've established this is just fear mongering.
> 
> Related to just a "mild cold".  I know a bunch of people in San Diego that have gotten Covid since around Christmas.  It is not a mild cold, its a bad flu, like a week in bed bad flu.  Lingering fever although not very high.  Whereas, I know a bunch of people outside of San Diego, in particular, Utah and Colorado that have gotten it recently and it is a mild cold or less.
> 
> Every single individual above has at least been double vaxxed and in some cases boosted.  I wonder what explains the difference in symptoms.  Is Delta still dominant in San Diego?


The health of the person is the key I believe.  I have old pal on Instagram asking for prayers for his older sister.  She is on a ventilator to help her breath.  She has been tripled jabbed and is now in hospital.  This is not make up and I just read it.  The Facts and truth are the same here folks.  I love her but she has always been over weight and does not take care of her health, like I did and Mike P just did.  5 11 and way over weight she has always been and now it's catching up to her.  Not trying to be mean.  She eat fast food all the time, like my wife's friend Anna.  My pals sister has other health issues like diabetes and obesity.  Bottom-line, she is sick with either Covid, Delta, Omicron, Flurona or the flu and it's in her lungs and lungs get filled with fluid.  We shall overcome all this.  Getting fired for not getting the jab when those who got three are in hospital does not help, especially when the leaders say, "the coast is clear."


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> The arguments for and against vaccines have been beaten to death several times on this thread. Vaccine mandates, on the other hand, are still a dynamic topic.


Three topics.  Not two.

Vaccines, vaccine passports, and vaccine mandates.

I do not agree that a vaccine passport for restaurant and gym use is the same as a mandate.  

A mandate would be like they did for smallpox: "get vaccinated or pay a fine".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Every single individual above has at least been double vaxxed and in some cases boosted.  I wonder what explains the difference in symptoms.  Is Delta still dominant in San Diego?


Yeah, there's a bit of a lag between getting it and the severe symptoms. Here's to hoping those with the more severe symptoms had delta.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Yah don’t say…:.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Salvador Promotes Fitness to Fight Covid | centralamerica.com
> 
> 
> As El Salvador promotes fitness to fight Covid, we offer praise where it's due and ask if it's the first country to actually take this official step.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.centralamerica.com


Fat shamers. How unwoke.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Three topics.  Not two.
> 
> Vaccines, vaccine passports, and vaccine mandates.
> 
> I do not agree that a vaccine passport for restaurant and gym use is the same as a mandate.
> 
> A mandate would be like they did for smallpox: "get vaccinated or pay a fine".


Good point.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hello to Sleepless in Seattle poeple.  What a joke you guys are becoming.  My old pal that I visited two years ago in Kirkland, WA is officially hypnotized 100% and were not friends anymore.  I told him about this new Bill their trying to pass in his State and I wanted his thoughts on it and he says, "as a community we only want those who are vaccinated in our towns and food places and that's our right."  I told him, "Thanks for being honest about how I always felt you felt about people like me.  You always had too much snob in your spirit" I told him.  He said and I quote, "I guess this is the end."  I said, "yes sir.  Thanks for showing your true selfish self."  I left him with this, "Keep all the money you saved for retirement and enjoy life with the Metaverse Vaxxers, Mask over mouth and boosters forever."  He hung up on me.  I'm cleaning house with every friend I know who will not help others who have a right to say no.  Punish me all you want.  I will NEVER forget this you guys.  My pal sold out so he can go back to normal and now does not want any unclean human around him, his wife or his way of life and his space.  Only the vax can buy and sell and go to events and bars and food places where he hangs out.  We have all been appalled to see what is happening to the people of Australia, Canada, and Austria, where their governments are opening internment camps (called “quarantine camps”) for unvaccinated citizens who refuse vaccination for Covid.  People I know have been fired for not complying and now they have camps for us.  Oh joy, I love camping.....lol!  The List goes on how much hypocrisy I see in this country.  Pay to play players.  Shame on you.  When will you help others and not feed yourself first?  The state of Washington is now proposing similar rules for their unvaccinated citizens.  They are also proposing to add the (unapproved) Covid vaccines to the mandatory school vaccination regimen for all school children in the state.  A coworker sent an email this afternoon to his pal, containing the following.



> • Allowing local health officers to use law enforcement (WAC 246-100-070) to force an emergency order to *involuntarily detain a person or group of persons (families) to be isolated in a quarantine facility* (WAC 246-100-045) following refusal to voluntary comply with requests for medical examination, testing, treatment, counseling, *vaccination (WAC 246-100-040)*. These specifics come from WAC 246-100.
> • Including the Covid-19 injections as part of school immunization requirements using WAC 246-105.


----------



## Ellejustus

Now I just got this from PM.  Anyone, please up in Seattle, chime in here please?  My friend is not my friend anymore and this is not like him to act like this.  I see the Great Separation and it's kind of sad but also exciting all in one.  I never, ever want to be around people who think their better then the rest.  You know the snob; "my shit dont stink" type of a-hole or "my way or the highway" or "you best better do as I say and STFU or else" kind of man. We will not have a society like that anymore.  No more you guys.  Stop it!!  Stop lying and cheating and when caught, lie and cheat some more or worse......

*"While some flyers and e-mails have been sent around claiming the WSBOH will discuss or vote to enforce mandatory quarantine laws in cases of COVID-19, that is not the case.  Variations of the flyer state the WSBOH will discuss both Chapter 246-105 WAC, legislature regarding immunization of child care and school children against certain vaccine-preventable diseases, and Chapter 246-100 WAC, rules regarding communicable and certain other diseases. That much is true.  However, these are two separate issues, and neither will have action taken on them at this meeting." *


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So the fact that the current crop of vaccines has cut down on deaths and hospitalizations isn’t enough for you? All or nothing? Perfect or nothing?


Yea, that's what I said.  No one is arguing they've been useful in minimzing deaths and hospitalizations..but good try.

They do not stop transmission.  The risk benefit (which is what the CDC is supposed to weigh) isn' the same across the board.  The quest for mandates falls apart once the vaccines didn't do what they were marketed to do.  

If you are high risk, get vaccinated.  Should parents be mandated to vaccinate their healthy children.....Is sars-cov-2 the measles/mumps?  

If you are vaccinated and boosted...let it go already..you've done your part, nice job.  We went from prevention/immunity to.....well, you know the story, you follow the jello narrative.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Gunning for Tucker's job?


Your knack for takeways is astonishing...have you signed up for 2-3 boosters per year?  Did the CDC not change their definition. Did they follow the science?  Are they following it now?  Is Fauci the science? How should we use home tests?  Are they accurate?  Why are HC workers now allowed to come back to work  if their covid symptons are mild?  Should they be forced to tell patients under their care they are infected?   

Maybe you should ask Tucker. Apparently where you consume your information is lacking, similar to some of the folks on the supreme court.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I'm just looking for a definition.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Your knack for takeways is astonishing...have you signed up for 2-3 boosters per year?  Did the CDC not change their definition. Did they follow the science?  Are they following it now?  Is Fauci the science? How should we use home tests?  Are they accurate?  Why are HC workers now allowed to come back to work  if their covid symptons are mild?  Should they be forced to tell patients under their care they are infected?
> 
> Maybe you should ask Tucker. Apparently where you consume your information is lacking, similar to some of the folks on the supreme court.


What would happen if there were no rhetorical questions?


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> View attachment 12628


Covidian is 100% a cult with members that are now hypnotized.  The Witnesses of their sect like Espola and The Husler are the one's that drive me nuts.  I'm learning to become a certified, "Cult Exit Deprogrammer."  How to leave a cult for good; by EJ, SoccerHelper and the suspended crush.  The Covidians are out to get anyone WHO doesn;t agree with their teaching of injections from Wuhan and the mask way of life.  Whacko cult members that think their church of eating like shit, like fast food, booze and meat from abused animals is the true and only way to live on earth.  They never stop stumping on my right to earn a buck.  100% kicked me out of the game of money and power.  I was born into a cult and joined another one later in college.  The last one was more loving but came with conditions.  If you come to church and give at least 10%, you will be loved unconditionally.  It took "pay to have friends' to a  a whole crazy that I tested and with my true test, I saw church what it was.  A place to make friends but you better give up Sunday for The Lord and give all your time and extra cash flow back to the man at the church.  I read the bible every day for 30 years + 3= 33 years of hard core bible.  The stories in the bible are wonderful and I mean that.  I read it now at a whole different level.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Walensky says Sotomayor's pediatric COVID hospitalization number was off dramatically*
*The Supreme Court justice claimed there are more than 100,000 children in 'serious condition' from COVID-19*


----------



## what-happened

Ellejustus said:


> *Walensky says Sotomayor's pediatric COVID hospitalization number was off dramatically*
> *The Supreme Court justice claimed there are more than 100,000 children in 'serious condition' from COVID-19*


You left out the part where she says "and many on ventilators".  

And we wonder why so many have tuned out gubment.  At least we know she's not consuming her news via fox.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What would happen if there were no rhetorical questions?


this


----------



## Ellejustus

Wow oh wow, I love me some Geraldo now.  Great job bro for eating some humble pie.  Thanks for being a man and owning up to when your wrong. Thanks Geraldo, I mean that 100%. I love you man 

*Geraldo Rivera Eats “Humble Pie,” Apologizes to Unvaccinated After He Catches COVID*

*Geraldo:  I thought for sure I was immune for getting all the jabs

Geraldo:  I was very hard on the unvaccinated.  

Geraldo: As the data suggests, it's time I eat some humble pie in that regard because I was 100% wrong......blah and more blah and frankly I'm just embarrassed at myself.  I sorry to EJ as well.  I was wrong!!!  Please everyone, just admit you were wrong and change and just do right.  

*


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Is sars-cov-2 the measles/mumps.... prevention/immunity to.....


In equating immunity with prevention it is important to spell out prevention of what.  Immunity comprises both short term prevention to infection as well as long term prevention of severe disease consequences.  Either as a convalescent or a vaxxed invidual the short term component is on the order of 4 month to a year, and has to do with circulating antibodies titers that can vary considerably from individual to individual.  The long term memory component of immunity involves a separate (but related) set of immune cell populations.  In some cases this component of immunity memory can last a lifetime.  

In this sense there are many parallels between omicron (with omicron perhaps more accurately called cov-3) and measles.  Measles is one of the most, if not the most, infectious viruses in humans.  In terms of its R number, omicron is either right behind measles or running neck in neck. It's mind blowing. Childhood vaccination against measles has two public health objectives.  First, to prevent outbreaks.  Second, and perhaps more importantly given the increased severity of measles in adults, vaccination induces that long lasting immune memory component.  Especially if Cov-2 and its related offspring increasingly fall under selective pressure to circumvent short-term immunity, vaccination won't do much to temper community transmission. It may be a long time before we are in a position to talk about outbreaks, and who knows what flavor of C-virus we will be dealing with.  But the data appears pretty strong that vaxx, particularly after the clean up on aisle 5 that attends infection, induces an extremely diverse set of long term immune memory cell populations that recognize molecular surfaces of Ace2 in a variety of conformations.  That data has been linked on this thread.  It can be linked again if anybody cares, which i doubt.

I think people should do what they want.  But the argument for vaxxing kids as i see it parallels the situation with measles closely.  the future is obviously unknowable, but it seems pretty reasonable to think at this point that the next generation will be dealing with periodically re-emergent forms of this virus for the rest of their lives.  Their kids may bring it home from school to them. And each time it pops out of the woodworks who knows what it will look like.  But, given what we do know, there is a choice that can hopefully give their long term immunity the broadest possible arsenal going forward.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> You left out the part where she says "and many on ventilators".
> 
> And we wonder why so many have tuned out gubment.  At least we know she's not consuming her news via fox.


I saw a pic of her chowing down on a nice meal after work with no mask with a few of her pals.  I dont know when the pic was and I sure don;t want her after me.  I respect her as judge and 1/7 of the jury.  She was appointed by former President Obama.  I just 100% disagree with her about fetus being brain dead and then this about the vax and the kids.  This is going to be an epic week.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Yea, that's what I said.  No one is arguing they've been useful in minimzing deaths and hospitalizations..but good try.
> 
> They do not stop transmission.  The risk benefit (which is what the CDC is supposed to weigh) isn' the same across the board.  The quest for mandates falls apart once the vaccines didn't do what they were marketed to do.
> 
> If you are high risk, get vaccinated.  Should parents be mandated to vaccinate their healthy children.....Is sars-cov-2 the measles/mumps?
> 
> If you are vaccinated and boosted...let it go already..you've done your part, nice job.  We went from prevention/immunity to.....well, you know the story, you follow the jello narrative.


I am against government mandates, but private businesses are free to decide who gets access, right?


----------



## Ellejustus

RIP Bob Saget


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> I am against government mandates, but private businesses are free to decide who gets access, right?


And who they bake cakes for as well, right?


----------



## Ellejustus

Do you know the codes?  This is getting very interesting.  

*AOC tests positive for COVID-19 after partying in Miami maskless*
*The positive test comes shortly after the congresswoman was seen without a mask in a Miami bar, according to video that circulated on social media

*


----------



## espola

In some cases, incentives are more effective than mandates.









						Vaccine appointments multiply after Quebec requires shots for weed, alcohol stores ｜ New York Daily News
					

They’re going shots for shots. First-dose vaccine appointments quadrupled in Quebec after the Canadian province required vaccine passports to buy alcohol and marijuana. Quebec announced the new rules Thursday, when there were an average of 1,500 first dose appointments, the Montreal Gazette...




					nordot.app


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> In equating immunity with prevention it is important to spell out prevention of what.  Immunity comprises both short term prevention to infection as well as long term prevention of severe disease consequences.  Either as a convalescent or a vaxxed invidual the short term component is on the order of 4 month to a year, and has to do with circulating antibodies titers that can vary considerably from individual to individual.  The long term memory component of immunity involves a separate (but related) set of immune cell populations.  In some cases this component of immunity memory can last a lifetime.
> 
> In this sense there are many parallels between omicron (with omicron perhaps more accurately called cov-3) and measles.  Measles is one of the most, if not the most, infectious viruses in humans.  In terms of its R number, omicron is either right behind measles or running neck in neck. It's mind blowing. Childhood vaccination against measles has two public health objectives.  First, to prevent outbreaks.  Second, and perhaps more importantly given the increased severity of measles in adults, vaccination induces that long lasting immune memory component.  Especially if Cov-2 and its related offspring increasingly fall under selective pressure to circumvent short-term immunity, vaccination won't do much to temper community transmission. It may be a long time before we are in a position to talk about outbreaks, and who knows what flavor of C-virus we will be dealing with.  But the data appears pretty strong that vaxx, particularly after the clean up on aisle 5 that attends infection, induces an extremely diverse set of long term immune memory cell populations that recognize molecular surfaces of Ace2 in a variety of conformations.  That data has been linked on this thread.  It can be linked again if anybody cares, which i doubt.
> 
> I think people should do what they want.  But the argument for vaxxing kids as i see it parallels the situation with measles closely.  the future is obviously unknowable, but it seems pretty reasonable to think at this point that the next generation will be dealing with periodically re-emergent forms of this virus for the rest of their lives.  Their kids may bring it home from school to them. And each time it pops out of the woodworks who knows what it will look like.  But, given what we do know, there is a choice that can hopefully give their long term immunity the broadest possible arsenal going forward.


They can get the same protection through natural immune exposure though, which for them carries very little risk.  All of them, vaxxed and unvaxxed, will be exposed to it at some point. Further there doesn’t appear to be a whole lot of benefit to boosting them.

you also seem to suggest that it’s a doomsday scenario that they’ll be repeatedly exposed to this virus including by their kids.  You’re a parent right?  We all go through this. There is nothing special about this coronavirus (unless you are somehow suggesting it has been engineered to by a doomsday weapon constantly mutating into bad forms). There are 4 other freely circulating corona viruses. There’s the flu. There’s rsv which hospitalized more kids ever year than the corona virus. Then there’s the adeno and enters viruses. I’ve come close to being killed not just by covid but by a simple rhino virus that developed into a drug resistant sinus infection. The most disgusting illness I’ve ever had was an adeno virus which not only gave me a respiratory infection but secondary bronchitis, pink eye and intestinal problems. It’s part of the human condition.Unless you somehow believe this thing was made to be different, it will join the long line of illness that periodically goes Darwin on our species every year.  Part of what made this so horrible, like small pox to the Inca or measles to the Hawaiians, was that it was Novel to our immune systems.


----------



## LASTMAN14

espola said:


> What would happen if there were no rhetorical questions?


You would no longer be.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> In equating immunity with prevention it is important to spell out prevention of what.  Immunity comprises both short term prevention to infection as well as long term prevention of severe disease consequences.  Either as a convalescent or a vaxxed invidual the short term component is on the order of 4 month to a year, and has to do with circulating antibodies titers that can vary considerably from individual to individual.  The long term memory component of immunity involves a separate (but related) set of immune cell populations.  In some cases this component of immunity memory can last a lifetime.
> 
> In this sense there are many parallels between omicron (with omicron perhaps more accurately called cov-3) and measles.  Measles is one of the most, if not the most, infectious viruses in humans.  In terms of its R number, omicron is either right behind measles or running neck in neck. It's mind blowing. Childhood vaccination against measles has two public health objectives.  First, to prevent outbreaks.  Second, and perhaps more importantly given the increased severity of measles in adults, vaccination induces that long lasting immune memory component.  Especially if Cov-2 and its related offspring increasingly fall under selective pressure to circumvent short-term immunity, vaccination won't do much to temper community transmission. It may be a long time before we are in a position to talk about outbreaks, and who knows what flavor of C-virus we will be dealing with.  But the data appears pretty strong that vaxx, particularly after the clean up on aisle 5 that attends infection, induces an extremely diverse set of long term immune memory cell populations that recognize molecular surfaces of Ace2 in a variety of conformations.  That data has been linked on this thread.  It can be linked again if anybody cares, which i doubt.
> 
> I think people should do what they want.  But the argument for vaxxing kids as i see it parallels the situation with measles closely.  the future is obviously unknowable, but it seems pretty reasonable to think at this point that the next generation will be dealing with periodically re-emergent forms of this virus for the rest of their lives.  Their kids may bring it home from school to them. And each time it pops out of the woodworks who knows what it will look like.  But, given what we do know, there is a choice that can hopefully give their long term immunity the broadest possible arsenal going forward.


The argument for vaxxing kids is always dicussed in terms of risk/benefit.  It's why the committees are taking their time with the U5s.  Transmission comparisons between omicron and the measles are fair.  Factor of 18 vs factor of 15 is pretty dang close and makes omicron very, very contagious.   

 I don't have to tell you the difference in outcomes between untreated measles and omicron for U5s.  Unless omicron takes a hard left and  presents in a more deadly manner, vaxxing based on transmissability for a variant that sidesteps immunity may not be the right thing to do.
There are going to continue to be millions of people in this country and around the world that will not ever be vaccinated.  Variants will likely continue to spin for the foreseable future.  By the way, 140K people died in 2018 of the measles, mostly U5s.

As you said, what the future holds, no one really knows.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I am against government mandates, but private businesses are free to decide who gets access, right?


Private business are free to do what they want.  They will eventually succumb/make decisions based on business requirements.  The labor market is already strained. The market will take care of those business.  Vaccines obviously aren't preventing people from going home sick.  Keep an eye on hospitals - hiring back nurses previously let go will likley be the first move, especially when vaccinated workers are still missing work.  Can't you see the tide slowly turning?  

We've gone from immunity/prevention to reducing hospitalization/disease to a variant that makes you sick for 5 days.  What good are mandates if it doesn't keep people from going home?  Besides, we have these really cool N95s that healthcare workers wear all day... isn't that good for something?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> In some cases, incentives are more effective than mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine appointments multiply after Quebec requires shots for weed, alcohol stores ｜ New York Daily News
> 
> 
> They’re going shots for shots. First-dose vaccine appointments quadrupled in Quebec after the Canadian province required vaccine passports to buy alcohol and marijuana. Quebec announced the new rules Thursday, when there were an average of 1,500 first dose appointments, the Montreal Gazette...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nordot.app


Messing with fire if you take away this type of access to canadians this time of the year..  Thoughtful incentives would likely have a high degree of success in this country.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Messing with fire if you take away this type of access to canadians this time of the year..  Thoughtful incentives would likely have a high degree of success in this country.


Restricting access to pork would be problem --









						Au Pied de Cochon Restaurant Montréal Montreal QC Reviews | GAYOT
					

Want Canadian Regional cuisine in Montréal tonight? Au Pied de Cochon has a 14 rating at GAYOT.com on a scale where 20 is the perfect restaurant. Read expert reviews of Montréal restaurants now.




					www.gayot.com


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Restricting access to pork would be problem --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Au Pied de Cochon Restaurant Montréal Montreal QC Reviews | GAYOT
> 
> 
> Want Canadian Regional cuisine in Montréal tonight? Au Pied de Cochon has a 14 rating at GAYOT.com on a scale where 20 is the perfect restaurant. Read expert reviews of Montréal restaurants now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gayot.com


Or maple syrup --









						The Story on Chef Martin Picard's Sweet Spot
					

The Story on Chef Martin Picard's Sweet Spot




					www.bonappetit.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> They can get the same protection through natural immune exposure though, which for them carries very little risk.  All of them, vaxxed and unvaxxed, will be exposed to it at some point. Further there doesn’t appear to be a whole lot of benefit to boosting them.


Vaxx has been demonstrated to provide extremely broad conformational coverage to S in terms of immune memory.  The relevant data has been discussed here. So, given the current state of data, the potential alterations to S that may arise in future variants are better offset through vaxx .  There is also data that Infection, followed by vaxx, maybe a particularly robust long term memory combination.  This may be because the germinal centers that are established through infection allow the long term T and B cell populations to proliferate a few more times before becoming quiescent.  The reason for writing this is because, if a parent is thinking about vaxx for their kid, and they get omicron, which almost everybody will, it is the perfect time given what we know.  If people don't like that idea, think it is stupid, whatever, then don't do it.



Grace T. said:


> you also seem to suggest that it’s a doomsday scenario that they’ll be repeatedly exposed to this virus including by their kids.


No. Doomsday is all the wailing and gnashing of teeth surrounding policy. People said all the same stuff in 1918, just the political poles were reversed. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. I believe it was you talking about lessons learned.  Anyway, a better term for what is going on with these emergent C-viruses is koyannisqatsi.  Gven the zoonotic populations of C-virus that are being established around the globe the rate at which descendents of this virus will re-emerge in novel recombined forms will likely increase.  SARS, MERS, Cov-2 and now possibly Cov-3 within the span of several decades. Looking forward 50 years there will be more.



Grace T. said:


> There is nothing special about this coronavirus (unless you are somehow suggesting it has been engineered to by a doomsday weapon constantly mutating into bad forms).


The fact that new variants arise and can be selected for has nothing to do with its origin.  If it came from a lab or from bats or pangolins or whatever that would still be true.  There are many unique features about this c-virus.  Having posted about it as much as you do I'm a bit surprised. The way in which it activates S has novel features, which is really the only thing that could have been conceivably engineered. The flexibility in terms of pathway choice for how it enters cells is much more sophisticated than what we saw with SARs or MERs, part of which probably contributes to cell fusigenic properties underlying the pathogenesis of COVID19.  And the replicative potential of omicron is unprecedented for a c-virus, which remains to be figured out.



Grace T. said:


> There are 4 other freely circulating corona viruses. There’s the flu. There’s rsv which hospitalized more kids ever year than the corona virus. Then there’s the adeno and enters viruses. I’ve come close to being killed not just by covid but by a simple rhino virus that developed into a drug resistant sinus infection. The most disgusting illness I’ve ever had was an adeno virus which not only gave me a respiratory infection but secondary bronchitis, pink eye and intestinal problems. It’s part of the human condition.Unless you somehow believe this thing was made to be different, it will join the long line of illness that periodically goes Darwin on our species every year.  Part of what made this so horrible, like small pox to the Inca or measles to the Hawaiians, was that it was Novel to our immune systems.


Not sure what your point is. Of course we were immunologically naieve to this virus; it was emergent. That's pretty obvious. I think what you are saying is that this virus will turn into another evolutionarily stable common cold C-virus. Reasonably steady state and seasonal.  We will balance with it and it will balance with us. That is of course to be expected as the pandemic winds down; case load under that steady state will be an important factor. What I'm speaking to is novel variants emerging from resevoirs 5, 10, 20, 50 years down the line. The properties and virulence of those emergent strains are impossible to predict. But as long as such emergent viruses remain Ace2 directed, as of right now vaccination appears to provide the broadest long term immunological insurance policy.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> But as long as such emergent viruses remain Ace2 directed, as of right now vaccination appears to provide the broadest long term immunological insurance policy.


Time will tell I suppose.  Therapeutics are showing some promise as are trials with repurposed drugs.  Full court press really.  Besides, many providers have been doing off label for some time.   If variants continue to degrade in disease and mandates die on the vine, vaccination will be even less appealing to those not vaccinated (for better or for worse).


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> The argument for vaxxing kids is always dicussed in terms of risk/benefit.  It's why the committees are taking their time with the U5s.  Transmission comparisons between omicron and the measles are fair.  Factor of 18 vs factor of 15 is pretty dang close and makes omicron very, very contagious.
> 
> I don't have to tell you the difference in outcomes between untreated measles and omicron for U5s.  Unless omicron takes a hard left and  presents in a more deadly manner, vaxxing based on transmissability for a variant that sidesteps immunity may not be the right thing to do.
> There are going to continue to be millions of people in this country and around the world that will not ever be vaccinated.  Variants will likely continue to spin for the foreseable future.  By the way, 140K people died in 2018 of the measles, mostly U5s.
> 
> As you said, what the future holds, no one really knows.


Sadly, as I understand it much of the mortality associated measles in the very young occurs due to poor health care and, even in the absence of vaccination, could be offset.  With respect to Cov transmissibility, the short term humoral component of immunity has largely already been sidestepped although that wrestling match will continue. Some aspects of the future are more knowable than others.  The possibility of novel zoonotic C-viruses emerging over the coming decades would appear to have gone up considerably.  The long term memory component of immunity is highly relevant to those.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Vaxx has been demonstrated to provide extremely broad conformational coverage to S in terms of immune memory.  The relevant data has been discussed here. So, given the current state of data, the potential alterations to S that may arise in future variants are better offset through vaxx .  There is also data that Infection, followed by vaxx, maybe a particularly robust long term memory combination.  This may be because the germinal centers that are established through infection allow the long term T and B cell populations to proliferate a few more times before becoming quiescent.  The reason for writing this is because, if a parent is thinking about vaxx for their kid, and they get omicron, which almost everybody will, it is the perfect time given what we know.  If people don't like that idea, think it is stupid, whatever, then don't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Doomsday is all the wailing and gnashing of teeth surrounding policy. People said all the same stuff in 1918, just the political poles were reversed. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. I believe it was you talking about lessons learned.  Anyway, a better term for what is going on with these emergent C-viruses is koyannisqatsi.  Gven the zoonotic populations of C-virus that are being established around the globe the rate at which descendents of this virus will re-emerge in novel recombined forms will likely increase.  SARS, MERS, Cov-2 and now possibly Cov-3 within the span of several decades. Looking forward 50 years there will be more.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that new variants arise and can be selected for has nothing to do with its origin.  If it came from a lab or from bats or pangolins or whatever that would still be true.  There are many unique features about this c-virus.  Having posted about it as much as you do I'm a bit surprised. The way in which it activates S has novel features, which is really the only thing that could have been conceivably engineered. The flexibility in terms of pathway choice for how it enters cells is much more sophisticated than what we saw with SARs or MERs, part of which probably contributes to cell fusigenic properties underlying the pathogenesis of COVID19.  And the replicative potential of omicron is unprecedented for a c-virus, which remains to be figured out.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what your point is. Of course we were immunologically naieve to this virus; it was emergent. That's pretty obvious. I think what you are saying is that this virus will turn into another evolutionarily stable common cold C-virus. Reasonably steady state and seasonal.  We will balance with it and it will balance with us. That is of course to be expected as the pandemic winds down; case load under that steady state will be an important factor. What I'm speaking to is novel variants emerging from resevoirs 5, 10, 20, 50 years down the line. The properties and virulence of those emergent strains are impossible to predict. But as long as such emergent viruses remain Ace2 directed, as of right now vaccination appears to provide the broadest long term immunological insurance policy.


I’d just point out that’s no different, including the zoonotic reserve, than the flu. Same risk to society. Same danger. 

further, eventually, they’ll solve the vaccine issue..which is still in its toddlerhood (the tech even through the failures of the vaccine having grown leaps and bounds)


----------



## Grace T.

Lausd is suspending all sports for at least 1 week. Cif meeting next week to discuss how to handle. La county health might follow suit for private and religious schools and other schools districts. Unclear if this will extend to club sports.


----------



## Ellejustus

So many are hypnotized this morning.  Enter today with caution, kindness & empathy towards those who got played.  Step #1.  Admit you got played like Geraldo, go eat some pie and come back and tell us all how embarrassed you feel about yourself.  Do it now and the scales will be lifted off your eyes.  Trust me on this.  Or, continue to get all your information from the source.  

According to all these news outlets, no evidence of Mass Formation Psychosis according to Reuters, AP, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, USA Today, The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, New Yorker, The Washington Post, Star Tribune (Minneapolis), Chicago Tribune, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Lausd is suspending all sports for at least 1 week. Cif meeting next week to discuss how to handle. La county health might follow suit for private and religious schools and other schools districts. Unclear if this will extend to club sports.


Are there any restrictions on club sports? Of course, with many clubs using public school facilities, they will get suspended as well.

This can't be good for Santa Clara County. Hey @dad4, do you know how SC county compares to LA in terms of cases? I have to think we'll hit this at some point.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I have a few observations from our trip to FL I thought I'd share. I was in Fort Lauderdale.

Masks were optional inside. Some establishments appeared to require masks for employees but others definitely did not. There were still a significant number of people that wore masks inside stores - maybe about 1/3 or less. The bartender at the one spot we went to said a popular restaurant up the street couldn't open because they couldn't get workers. The place we went to twice on the beach was full. We sat outside at the bar both times and all the employees wore masks.

The flights were interesting. I have a lot of compassion for the flight attendants. Enforcing the mask policy obviously sucks. My wife was flying on business so she was up in first class. The guy next to her wasn't keeping his mask and/or didn't cover his nose. He kept asking for water so he could be actively drinking. She didn't complain about it but the flight attendant ended up giving my wife a $200 flight credit. My daughter and I sat on aisle seats across from each other. She had a woman and her son next to her. The woman was vaping and got caught. No big scene but the flight attendant told her the captain may put her on a no-fly list. I'm pretty sure the general population has moved toward the crazy side of the continuum since the pandemic. I had an empty middle seat - one of the few empty seats on the flight. I attribute that to my good living and virtue. My family does not agree.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have a few observations from our trip to FL I thought I'd share. I was in Fort Lauderdale.
> 
> Masks were optional inside. Some establishments appeared to require masks for employees but others definitely did not. There were still a significant number of people that wore masks inside stores - maybe about 1/3 or less. The bartender at the one spot we went to said a popular restaurant up the street couldn't open because they couldn't get workers. The place we went to twice on the beach was full. We sat outside at the bar both times and all the employees wore masks.
> 
> The flights were interesting. I have a lot of compassion for the flight attendants. Enforcing the mask policy obviously sucks. My wife was flying on business so she was up in first class. The guy next to her wasn't keeping his mask and/or didn't cover his nose. He kept asking for water so he could be actively drinking. She didn't complain about it but the flight attendant ended up giving my wife a $200 flight credit. My daughter and I sat on aisle seats across from each other. She had a woman and her son next to her. The woman was vaping and got caught. No big scene but the flight attendant told her the captain may put her on a no-fly list. I'm pretty sure the general population has moved toward the crazy side of the continuum since the pandemic. I had an empty middle seat - one of the few empty seats on the flight. I attribute that to my good living and virtue. My family does not agree.


Vaping in flight? Geez-O, addicted much? She doesn’t know they have gum for that I suppose. People have gone wacko with their hostile feelings of self-entitlement. Courtesy is absent.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have a few observations from our trip to FL I thought I'd share. I was in Fort Lauderdale.
> 
> Masks were optional inside. Some establishments appeared to require masks for employees but others definitely did not. There were still a significant number of people that wore masks inside stores - maybe about 1/3 or less. The bartender at the one spot we went to said a popular restaurant up the street couldn't open because they couldn't get workers. The place we went to twice on the beach was full. We sat outside at the bar both times and all the employees wore masks.
> 
> The flights were interesting. I have a lot of compassion for the flight attendants. Enforcing the mask policy obviously sucks. My wife was flying on business so she was up in first class. The guy next to her wasn't keeping his mask and/or didn't cover his nose. He kept asking for water so he could be actively drinking. She didn't complain about it but the flight attendant ended up giving my wife a $200 flight credit. My daughter and I sat on aisle seats across from each other. She had a woman and her son next to her. The woman was vaping and got caught. No big scene but the flight attendant told her the captain may put her on a no-fly list. I'm pretty sure the general population has moved toward the crazy side of the continuum since the pandemic. I had an empty middle seat - one of the few empty seats on the flight. I attribute that to my good living and virtue. My family does not agree.


Oh, one more thing. There was a family two rows in front of me - two adults and two children around 2-3 (girl) and 5 (boy). One of them wasn't keeping their mask on prior to the flight and the flight attendant let them know they would be removed from the plane if the mask didn't stay on. Noone was removed but it was a constant battle through the flight. Throughout it all, the parents were calm, or comatose. The girls had high-functioning lungs and exercised them liberally. She also coughed a lot. In the row between us, there were two men on the aisle. One had a bio-tech company hat that had "Covid Response Team" on it. They were none too pleased with what was going on in front of them - lots of head shaking and hand waving.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Are there any restrictions on club sports? Of course, with many clubs using public school facilities, they will get suspended as well.
> 
> This can't be good for Santa Clara County. Hey @dad4, do you know how SC county compares to LA in terms of cases? I have to think we'll hit this at some point.


SCC is lagging.  Our hospital peak will be later and lower than LA.   Our curve is flatter and more of us are vaccinated.

Either way, there is not much time left in Omicron, even for SCC.  Peak seems to be when you reach 4-6X previous case peak.  SCC is at about 2X previous case peak.  Which means we have one or two doublings left.  3-7 days.  Then things start to drop.

I don’t expect a major hit to sports up here.   Maybe the indoor sports: futsal, basketball, and volleyball.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have a few observations from our trip to FL I thought I'd share. I was in Fort Lauderdale.
> 
> Masks were optional inside. Some establishments appeared to require masks for employees but others definitely did not. There were still a significant number of people that wore masks inside stores - maybe about 1/3 or less. The bartender at the one spot we went to said a popular restaurant up the street couldn't open because they couldn't get workers. The place we went to twice on the beach was full. We sat outside at the bar both times and all the employees wore masks.
> 
> The flights were interesting. I have a lot of compassion for the flight attendants. Enforcing the mask policy obviously sucks. My wife was flying on business so she was up in first class. The guy next to her wasn't keeping his mask and/or didn't cover his nose. He kept asking for water so he could be actively drinking. She didn't complain about it but the flight attendant ended up giving my wife a $200 flight credit. My daughter and I sat on aisle seats across from each other. She had a woman and her son next to her. The woman was vaping and got caught. No big scene but the flight attendant told her the captain may put her on a no-fly list. I'm pretty sure the general population has moved toward the crazy side of the continuum since the pandemic. I had an empty middle seat - one of the few empty seats on the flight. I attribute that to my good living and virtue. My family does not agree.


Horrible experience for all involved.  Vap is poison and I can;t believe someone is making a buck of that poison.  Vap lungs are gnarly....


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> SCC is lagging.  Our hospital peak will be later and lower than LA.   Our curve is flatter and more of us are vaccinated.
> 
> Either way, there is not much time left in Omicron, even for SCC.  Peak seems to be when you reach 4-6X previous case peak.  SCC is at about 2X previous case peak.  Which means we have one or two doublings left.  3-7 days.  Then things start to drop.
> 
> I don’t expect a major hit to sports up here.   Maybe the indoor sports: futsal, basketball, and volleyball.


Same in our neck of the woods. For us folks just aren't comfortable with indoor sports.  It has less to do with any restrictions.  Our futsal league starts this weekend spectator-less. I knew I should've bought a veo.

Last week schools were a bit rough as so many kids tested positive, but so far our public schools have been resilient.


----------



## NorCalDad

Hüsker Dü said:


> Vaping in flight? Geez-O, addicted much? She doesn’t know they have gum for that I suppose. People have gone wacko with their hostile feelings of self-entitlement. Courtesy is absent.


Remember when smoking was legal on airplanes?


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, one more thing. There was a family two rows in front of me - two adults and two children around 2-3 (girl) and 5 (boy). One of them wasn't keeping their mask on prior to the flight and the flight attendant let them know they would be removed from the plane if the mask didn't stay on. Noone was removed but it was a constant battle through the flight. Throughout it all, the parents were calm, or comatose. The girls had high-functioning lungs and exercised them liberally. She also coughed a lot. In the row between us, there were two men on the aisle. One had a bio-tech company hat that had "Covid Response Team" on it. They were none too pleased with what was going on in front of them - lots of head shaking and hand waving.


To be fair I would always go comatose when my kids were that age and we flew.  Just brutal trying to calm a small unreasonable human being.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NorCalDad said:


> Remember when smoking was legal on airplanes?


Remember when Doctors promoted smoking?


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Remember when Doctors promoted smoking?


No I don't.  I wasn't alive then.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, one more thing. There was a family two rows in front of me - two adults and two children around 2-3 (girl) and 5 (boy). One of them wasn't keeping their mask on prior to the flight and the flight attendant let them know they would be removed from the plane if the mask didn't stay on. Noone was removed but it was a constant battle through the flight. Throughout it all, the parents were calm, or comatose. The girls had high-functioning lungs and exercised them liberally. She also coughed a lot. In the row between us, there were two men on the aisle. One had a bio-tech company hat that had "Covid Response Team" on it. They were none too pleased with what was going on in front of them - lots of head shaking and hand waving.


First leg of my trip was quietest flight in a long time.  Of course it left at 615 am.  Only complaint is I might lose my left ear.  KN95 was tight and felt like it cutoff circulation.

Parents that are oblivious to their kids behavior on flights astonish me.  I was always petrified of any movement by my kids on flights.

Vaping WTF?


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> To be fair I would always go comatose when my kids were that age and we flew.  Just brutal trying to calm a small unreasonable human being.


Did you force a mask on them too?  This is abuse, pure evil.  I took my dd to Cleveland back in early 2005.  I kid you not, she made a man in front us hate kids forever.  I called her "scandalosa" because she scream so hi!!!!  One time dude was asleep and my dd went "hi pitch" and guy got all mad.  I told him to relax and have some drinks.  How sad now we have to talk about how unruly a two year old is because like me, i will never fly until this mask BS is over with.  Thanks for ruining our country because of the orange man and his followers.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Remember when smoking was legal on airplanes?


Yep.  Just a little placard designating smoking section.  Looking back at it, I dont know which was crazier, smoking or open flame from matches and lighters.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting clip.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480542490897887235


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> If my vaccine changes my probability of transmission, then my vax status is already having an impact on other people.  It is lowering the probability that I give them covid.


Please provide specifics of those you did not infect.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480511489039421441


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Interesting clip.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480542490897887235


Anecdotal friend of friend story.  Woman is nurse at Scripps hospital works in Covid unit.  Says nearly everyone in unit is unvaccinated and obese/diabetic.

It seems its a Darwin virus.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Anecdotal friend of friend story.  Woman is nurse at Scripps hospital works in Covid unit.  Says nearly everyone in unit is unvaccinated and obese/diabetic.
> 
> It seems its a Darwin virus.


Wow, you believe that friend of a friend story?  I have a story and it's straight from my eyes.  The people I know who have Covid have been vaccinated and the only person I know that is in ICU and needing help breathing is triple vax.  Let's stop with who is in the hospital and look at WHO is actually dying just from Covid and not with Covid.  75%?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> I’d just point out that’s no different, including the zoonotic reserve, than the flu. Same risk to society. Same danger.


Same principles, but different kinetics, and a different latitude in what's phylogenetically possible when comparing a flu virus vs a c-virus. The ping-ponging with re-emergent zoonoses put in place by the pandemic could be much more rapid, and explore a broader range of different trajectories, than anything we are likely to see with influenza.  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03792-w


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Interesting clip.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480542490897887235


And the sad thing is, this has been common knowledge from within the first month or 2. 

The virus rarely strikes down the healthy. 

Yet when you read or watched stories from supposedly reputable sources (NY Times for instance) that is now how they framed their stories. 

Go look for instance how many stories they had about worried parents in regards to their kids. And how a vax for kids will turn things around. 

None/few based on actual data.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> To be fair I would always go comatose when my kids were that age and we flew.  Just brutal trying to calm a small unreasonable human being.


Oh, nothing but compassion for the parents. I am not sure what else they could have done and they stayed calm through it all which is easily the best thing they could do. The kids were cute, happy children when we saw them walking after the flight. I don't like the cramped and restrictive hours on a plane. Many kids feel the same.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Remember when Doctors promoted smoking?


Didn't they prefer Camels?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Anecdotal friend of friend story.  Woman is nurse at Scripps hospital works in Covid unit.  Says nearly everyone in unit is unvaccinated and obese/diabetic.
> 
> It seems its a Darwin virus.


Darwin's gonna Darwin?


----------



## Desert Hound

WATCH: Vax Taskforce Chief Says Mass Vaccination 'Pointless', Time to Stop Counting Case Numbers.
					

The former head of the United Kingdom’s Vaccine Taskforce, Dr. Clive Dix, has stated that the nation’s mass vaccination campaign should end, alongside the endless tracking of “case numbers”. Dr. Dix told Sky News that the original vaccines were designed to stop infection and transmission, which...




					thenationalpulse.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Anecdotal friend of friend story.  Woman is nurse at Scripps hospital works in Covid unit.  Says nearly everyone in unit is unvaccinated and obese/diabetic.
> 
> It seems its a Darwin virus.


Molecular eugenics at work.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> WATCH: Vax Taskforce Chief Says Mass Vaccination 'Pointless', Time to Stop Counting Case Numbers.
> 
> 
> The former head of the United Kingdom’s Vaccine Taskforce, Dr. Clive Dix, has stated that the nation’s mass vaccination campaign should end, alongside the endless tracking of “case numbers”. Dr. Dix told Sky News that the original vaccines were designed to stop infection and transmission, which...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thenationalpulse.com


National Pulse.   Steve Bannon’s rag.

Your news source is a man who was arrested for mail fraud and money laundering.  I hear if you send him money, he’ll build a wall on the Mexico border.

There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> National Pulse.   Steve Bannon’s rag.
> 
> Your news source is a man who was arrested for mail fraud and money laundering.  I hear if you send him money, he’ll build a wall on the Mexico border.
> 
> There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.


He was a Marine, no?  Notice all the ex-Navy Seals and Air Force Pilots running and winning offices all over the country?  It's game on and God wins!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> National Pulse.   Steve Bannon’s rag.
> 
> Your news source is a man who was arrested for mail fraud and money laundering.  I hear if you send him money, he’ll build a wall on the Mexico border.
> 
> There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.


Do you like the independent any better?









						End mass jabs and treat Covid like flu, says ex-head of vaccine taskforce
					

His comments come as the UK recorded more than 150,000  Covid deaths since the start of the pandemic




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Same principles, but different kinetics, and a different latitude in what's phylogenetically possible when comparing a flu virus vs a c-virus. The ping-ponging with re-emergent zoonoses put in place by the pandemic could be much more rapid, and explore a broader range of different trajectories, than anything we are likely to see with influenza.  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03792-w


what are the odds this thing becomes seasonal corona virus #5.  Less pathogenic, more contagious, good evolutionary stuff.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> National Pulse.   Steve Bannon’s rag.
> 
> Your news source is a man who was arrested for mail fraud and money laundering.  I hear if you send him money, he’ll build a wall on the Mexico border.
> 
> There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.


Hahaha! Show me the rag that isn't in the tank for someone/some cause. Is what was reported true? If so, that's what matters.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> National Pulse.   Steve Bannon’s rag.
> 
> Your news source is a man who was arrested for mail fraud and money laundering.  I hear if you send him money, he’ll build a wall on the Mexico border.
> 
> There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.


Classic response from you. Not addressing the video and the person making the statement...instead discounting the story because you don't like the source.


----------



## Desert Hound

So in the Phx area (actually the far east Valley) there is a new sports complex that just opened up. A ton of soccer fields in addition to facilities for many other sports. 20 turf and 15 grass soccer fields. 

Restaurants/bars. Apparently you can sit at the bar/restaurant and watch any soccer game live from your seat by dialing in the field number. 

Huge scoreboards for every field as seen below. Etc.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> So in the Phx area (actually the far east Valley) there is a new sports complex that just opened up. A ton of soccer fields in addition to facilities for many other sports. 20 turf and 15 grass soccer fields.
> 
> Restaurants/bars. Apparently you can sit at the bar/restaurant and watch any soccer game live from your seat by dialing in the field number.
> 
> Huge scoreboards for every field as seen below. Etc.
> 
> View attachment 12634
> 
> View attachment 12635


So awesome.!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

On this link you can see more info about the park above. There is a video that shows what is planned.

Quite impressive.

The club my DD plays for has moved into this place for their practice/games. 









						Explore the Park - Legacy Sports USA
					

Bell Bank Park, powered by Legacy Sports USA is a 320 acre World Class family sports and entertainment park. The one-of-a-kind park features a 3,000 seat outdoor stadium, eSports arena, indoor arena, (35) soccer/lacrosse/football fields, (57) indoor volleyball courts, (8) baseball & Adult...




					legacysportsusa.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> On this link you can see more info about the park above. There is a video that shows what is planned.
> 
> Quite impressive.
> 
> The club my DD plays for has moved into this place for their practice/games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explore the Park - Legacy Sports USA
> 
> 
> Bell Bank Park, powered by Legacy Sports USA is a 320 acre World Class family sports and entertainment park. The one-of-a-kind park features a 3,000 seat outdoor stadium, eSports arena, indoor arena, (35) soccer/lacrosse/football fields, (57) indoor volleyball courts, (8) baseball & Adult...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> legacysportsusa.com


I think we play you in AZ on 5/1…..looking forward to seeing the new complex.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> what are the odds this thing becomes seasonal corona virus #5.  Less pathogenic, more contagious, good evolutionary stuff.


Reasonable.  The question becomes which thing.  For example, should omicron be considered a variant in the current pandemic, or is it already the next thing?  It does not appear to have arisen from delta, as in a linear sequence of variants. But at some point the current, rapidly evolving, swarm of different C-viruses will presumably settle down.  We'll forget about it and short term immunity will wane away. After that, for our kids keeping an eye out for re-emergent next things is likely to occupy some attention.  But good long term immunity is a powerful thing.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have a few observations from our trip to FL I thought I'd share. I was in Fort Lauderdale.
> 
> Masks were optional inside. Some establishments appeared to require masks for employees but others definitely did not. There were still a significant number of people that wore masks inside stores - maybe about 1/3 or less. The bartender at the one spot we went to said a popular restaurant up the street couldn't open because they couldn't get workers. The place we went to twice on the beach was full. We sat outside at the bar both times and all the employees wore masks.
> 
> The flights were interesting. I have a lot of compassion for the flight attendants. Enforcing the mask policy obviously sucks. My wife was flying on business so she was up in first class. The guy next to her wasn't keeping his mask and/or didn't cover his nose. He kept asking for water so he could be actively drinking. She didn't complain about it but the flight attendant ended up giving my wife a $200 flight credit. My daughter and I sat on aisle seats across from each other. She had a woman and her son next to her. The woman was vaping and got caught. No big scene but the flight attendant told her the captain may put her on a no-fly list. I'm pretty sure the general population has moved toward the crazy side of the continuum since the pandemic. I had an empty middle seat - one of the few empty seats on the flight. I attribute that to my good living and virtue. My family does not agree.


wow vaping ? Isn’t that also a huge fine ? I’ve never seen that

I vacationed in Florida ( 30a area , highly recommend) during summer .  The only place I saw any mask wearing was the employees at a Lulu Lemon.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> So in the Phx area (actually the far east Valley) there is a new sports complex that just opened up. A ton of soccer fields in addition to facilities for many other sports. 20 turf and 15 grass soccer fields.
> 
> Restaurants/bars. Apparently you can sit at the bar/restaurant and watch any soccer game live from your seat by dialing in the field number.
> 
> Huge scoreboards for every field as seen below. Etc.
> 
> View attachment 12634
> 
> View attachment 12635


I wish we had this here.  Getting through one of my son's games would be so much easier, drink in hand, off the field, not wondering when he might goof one.  Sometimes I'm not sure what traumatizes me more: COVID or his soccer games.


----------



## Grace T.

What up BTW, with the empty shelves in some of the blue check cities.  My friend in DC went shopping last night and reported all the shelves were bare.  My bro up in San Francisco said the same thing: not completely bare but pretty much Soviet.  Here in LA the shelves are also sparsely stocked...but maybe sixty percent full.  Are the panicked 1/3 going out and buying up all the water and TP again to hunker down (and is that enough to cause supermarket collapse in the deep blue check cities), or are supply lines beginning to strain due to so many people out sick?


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> After that, for our kids keeping an eye out for re-emergent next things is likely to occupy some attention.  But good long term immunity is a powerful thing.


Possible but I'll put this in the same category of things as worrying about another Contagion scenario from a new bug, the big one, an asteroid striking earth, the AIs rising up and going cylon on us, and a nuclear war.  Frightening, possible, some more likely than others, but not going to lose my mind over it.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I think we play you in AZ on 5/1…..looking forward to seeing the new complex.


I just checked the schedule. You are correct.


----------



## Grace T.

Opinion | Omicron Makes Biden’s Vaccine Mandates Obsolete
					

There is no evidence so far that vaccines are reducing infections from the fast-spreading variant.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> What up BTW, with the empty shelves in some of the blue check cities.  My friend in DC went shopping last night and reported all the shelves were bare.  My bro up in San Francisco said the same thing: not completely bare but pretty much Soviet.  Here in LA the shelves are also sparsely stocked...but maybe sixty percent full.  Are the panicked 1/3 going out and buying up all the water and TP again to hunker down (and is that enough to cause supermarket collapse in the deep blue check cities), or are supply lines beginning to strain due to so many people out sick?


In Phx the shelves are mainly stocked. But some items are sparse or not found at all. Sea Salt and kosher salt can be hard to find. Other certain spices are not around. 

So most stuff is there, but there are rather noticeable product types not in stock or very limited.


----------



## Grace T.

Jordan Peterson: Open the damn country back up, before Canadians wreck something we can’t fix
					

The country is growing more authoritarian in response to fear




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> What up BTW, with the empty shelves in some of the blue check cities.  My friend in DC went shopping last night and reported all the shelves were bare.  My bro up in San Francisco said the same thing: not completely bare but pretty much Soviet.  Here in LA the shelves are also sparsely stocked...but maybe sixty percent full.  Are the panicked 1/3 going out and buying up all the water and TP again to hunker down (and is that enough to cause supermarket collapse in the deep blue check cities), or are supply lines beginning to strain due to so many people out sick?


I got up early this morning to finish my hunting for the winter.  I'm done.  Impossible to try and work through all this division.  My HS pal just left DC for good.  I drove on FWY this morning and no more rush hour.  It's gone!!!  Is everyone sick, scared and sipping on hot tea at home?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Show me the rag that isn't in the tank for someone/some cause. Is what was reported true? If so, that's what matters.


The article goes sideways from the point it declares that the sole purpose of a vaccine is to stop infection and stop transmission.

No mention at all of reducing the rate of infection or transmission.  No mention at all of of preventing severe disease.  The last is a rather large omission, considering that the drugs were approved on exactly that metric.

Beyond that, it’s not worth anyone’s time to figure out exactly how Bannon is lying to them this time.  There are plenty of more reputable people to listen to.  If it is at all legitimate, you can and will post an article from somewhere with real journalists.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> The article goes sideways from the point it declares that the sole purpose of a vaccine is to stop infection and stop transmission.
> 
> No mention at all of reducing the rate of infection or transmission.  No mention at all of of preventing severe disease.  The last is a rather large omission, considering that the drugs were approved on exactly that metric.
> 
> Beyond that, it’s not worth anyone’s time to figure out exactly how Bannon is lying to them this time.  There are plenty of more reputable people to listen to.  If it is at all legitimate, you can and will post an article from somewhere with real journalists.


Odd, because Biden, Fauci and Maddow ALL made the same claim about the Covid “vaccine”.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Interesting clip.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480542490897887235


Again, we are shocked. <No, we're not.>


----------



## Speed

Remember part of GI rations? I don't, but my non smoking dad does, said he used to sell them


----------



## Desert Hound

Has Covid vaccine efficacy turned negative?
					

Data from highly vaccinated countries suggests strongly that the answer is yes; vaccinated people are at higher risk of infection from Omicron.




					alexberenson.substack.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12636


You lost more of your shit-posting comrades today.  

Awarded… posthumously. (reddit.com) 
Recent nominee Grapes, who refused to drink the vaccine koolaid, is back for his award : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Meet Don, antivaxx/mask/mandate and misinformation FB shit-poster. Died in ICU of Covid 2 Jan. Was very concerned with losing his personal freedom during the pandemic and proudly chose to remain unvaccinated despite the risks. Rest in Freedom Don. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Turgis and his wife misunderstood science, communism, socialism, unions, and so many other things. It cost him his life. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Awarded… posthumously. (reddit.com) 
It's a family trifecta: Mr. Gold joins his dad and uncle (also an HCA winner) in the COVID death stats. Please get vaxxed. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Heather, a single mom of 4, didn't trust the vaccine, didn't get herself or her kids vaccinated. Now she's gone, and her oldest is unfortunately intubated. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Awarded… posthumously. (reddit.com)


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Odd, because Biden, Fauci and Maddow ALL made the same claim about the Covid “vaccine”.


During some Sunday news show?  Sure.  

The actual biology concepts are hard.  Fauci has 2 minutes.  He’s not going to go down some deep rabbit hole explaining stochastic processes.  He‘s going to talk in terms of what happens when the virus has to “stop” at each vaccinated person.

That doesn’t mean the models don’t use stochastic processes and probability distributions.  It just means the talking heads are giving you the dumbed down version.


----------



## Ellejustus

I heard a commercial this morning on radio and they are offering unlimited flu shots, boosters jabs, first time jabs, pills and more booster shots. Omicron booster is coming and a new booster in the horizon for Flurona.  Their going really, really big for stock piling more shots for all of you guys who want them.  Listen to what he says about folks like me, folks like you and those folks stuck in the middle and sitting on the fence.  Three types of folks now according to the other nerd, CEO Bourla.  Folks like me have a mindset that is fanatical ((basically, I love God too much, my blood is sacred to my bloodline and my body will not comply with jabs for life mindset in order to participate in life's riches and pleasures)).  The other mindset is folks like many of you here, who want maximum protection, willing to pay to play and will do whatever your doctor tells you to do and will booster up for the rest of your life on earth as long you play by their rules.  No way were going back to freedom of choice.  The CEO forgot to mention what you get if your a fanatic like me or if your obedient and get shots.  I will share.  If U R A crazy ass fanatic like yours's truly and think with both sides of your brain, you will lose your job and your ability to buy or sell.  If you have the mindset of compliance to rule makers, well then, you can go back to normal, as long as you take boosters and wear a mask for the rest of your short time on planet earth.  What a life worth living here folks.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> During some Sunday news show?  Sure.
> 
> The actual biology concepts are hard.  Fauci has 2 minutes.  He’s not going to go down some deep rabbit hole explaining stochastic processes.  He‘s going to talk in terms of what happens when the virus has to “stop” at each vaccinated person.
> 
> That doesn’t mean the models don’t use stochastic processes and probability distributions.  It just means the talking heads are giving you the dumbed down version.


So OK for some, but “sideways” for others.  What exactly is the distinction, political affiliation?

oh Biden was in a Press Conference and Maddow was parroting it on her show….


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The article goes sideways from the point it declares that the sole purpose of a vaccine is to stop infection and stop transmission.
> 
> No mention at all of reducing the rate of infection or transmission.  No mention at all of of preventing severe disease.  The last is a rather large omission, considering that the drugs were approved on exactly that metric.
> 
> Beyond that, it’s not worth anyone’s time to figure out exactly how Bannon is lying to them this time.  There are plenty of more reputable people to listen to.  If it is at all legitimate, you can and will post an article from somewhere with real journalists.


Where would one find "real journalists"? If the quote in the headline (all I read) is true, it is certainly better than some of what you were supporting on CNN where the headline was misleading, at best. You excused it because it supported mask-wearing, said something about the problem of having non-experts report on the virus, and indicated you basically put your own interpretation on the stories because of that. Those journalists? My question is if the quote from Dr. Clive Dix from  is true, why aren't "real journalists" reporting it?


----------



## espola

Speed said:


> Remember part of GI rations? I don't, but my non smoking dad does, said he used to sell them


I traded them for other items, usually desserts.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> During some Sunday news show?  Sure.
> 
> The actual biology concepts are hard.  Fauci has 2 minutes.  He’s not going to go down some deep rabbit hole explaining stochastic processes.  He‘s going to talk in terms of what happens when the virus has to “stop” at each vaccinated person.
> 
> That doesn’t mean the models don’t use stochastic processes and probability distributions.  It just means the talking heads are giving you the dumbed down version.


His role allowed him plenty of time to articulate public health policy.  He (and others) have really turned into adovocates...Which, I suppose is understandable when providing public health policy advice to  national leaders.  Unforunatey he didn't provide really good advice nor did he advocate for research that may have helped to drive treatment and create near/long term policy.  From an employee perspective, he should have been fired months ago.  Plenty of people in the field of medicine would whole heartedly agree.  

Group think has done plenty of damage to providers and scientists.  The gig is essently up.  The virus is essentially doing our job for us.  And I see you are still stuck on models.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Scalise, Comer call for hearing on Biden's 'failed' COVID-19 response: 'Dereliction of duty'*
*Republicans demand Fauci and Becerra appear before joint committee*


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> *Scalise, Comer call for hearing on Biden's 'failed' COVID-19 response: 'Dereliction of duty'*
> *Republicans demand Fauci and Becerra appear before joint committee*


We have an anti-vaxxer/masker blaming others for Covid-19 getting out of control.  Classic. 

How's the job search going Mr. Freeloader?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> We have an anti-vaxxer/masker blaming others for Covid-19 getting out of control.  Classic.
> 
> How's the job search going Mr. Freeloader?


Ahh, the blister is back.  Likely calloused over by now...endemic it is I suppose..


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> His role allowed him plenty of time to articulate public health policy.  He (and others) have really turned into adovocates...Which, I suppose is understandable when providing public health policy advice to  national leaders.  Unforunatey he didn't provide really good advice nor did he advocate for research that may have helped to drive treatment and create near/long term policy.  From an employee perspective, he should have been fired months ago.  Plenty of people in the field of medicine would whole heartedly agree.
> 
> Group think has done plenty of damage to providers and scientists.  The gig is essently up.  The virus is essentially doing our job for us.  And I see you are still stuck on models.



From a political point of view he hasn't really done his boss any favors.  They sort of assured him and he assured the country that it would be pretty much over last summer.  But now not only are we on triple vaxxed (and people who are complied are still getting sick), but we also have school/sport shut downs around the country, still masking (only now they are trying to put kids into N95s), still have shortages, still have inflation, still have hospital problems, have testing shortages (after 2 years!) and more people than ever are getting it (after having been worked up into a fear frenzy about wanting to avoid the virus).  So you have all this po'd people who did what they were supposed to and still got sick AND are still being punished for it.  They tried to throw the unvaxxed under the bus for that, but when even the triple vaxxed are getting sick, that's a hard sell except to all but the hardest of COVID diehards.

The reality is there wasn't much Biden could have done (other than controlled his party on schools....the white house still hasn't denounced the Chicago Teacher's Union despite being asked the question a few times now) and history would have played out the same way.  But the messaging has boxed Biden in.  They sold the public zero COVID when from day 1 they should have just said it wasn't going away.   Yayaya....you can say how could they have known about Delta and Omicron....some of us here knew and called it down to the regions involved.

Ironically, Biden is going to get hoisted on his own petard for embracing vaccines developed under the Trump admin and trying to claim the credit.  He would have been better off politically if he had called it a massive failure of the Trump vax.  Someone is going to get tarred for this....the situation politically requires a scapegoat....time to open the betting pools on Biden, Walensky or Fauci (my money is the CDC director gets pilloried...Fauci is way too savvy having survived too many strengths and Biden's handlers won't let it be him).


----------



## Grace T.

Mass cancellations affecting Los Angeles school sports.  Effectively sports are shutting down...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480659310132695040


----------



## Ellejustus

GoldenGate said:


> *We have an anti-vaxxer/masker blaming others for Covid-19 getting out of control.*


I'm Pro Choice by the way and not anti-anything.  I'm a pro-anything you want and have always been that way you, you, you, you mean old man Espola.  I know you have to hold it all in when I spank you around....lol!  I told you one father can make a change for the better for all the other dads in the future.  It's going to happen right before your eyes.......Free Popcorn for all!!!


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> I'm Pro Choice by the way and not anti-anything.  I'm a pro-anything you want and have always been that way you, you, you, you mean old man Espola.  I know you have to hold it all in when I spank you around....lol!  I told you one father can make a change for the better for all the other dads in the future.  It's going to happen right before your eyes.......Free Popcorn for all!!!


B.S.  You have posted one anti-vax/mask meme after the next.  

BTW, and not to state the obvious, but you'll need to get a job if you're going to be able to afford to buy everyone popcorn.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Mass cancellations affecting Los Angeles school sports.  Effectively sports are shutting down...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480659310132695040


Back to Utah for you.


----------



## Ellejustus

I know I was a big free loader looking for free rides in soccer for my dd and got so snaked oiled by a salesman who couldn't keep his snake in his cage.   I was so wrong with soccer and will now look to pay my fair share back to soccer and buy all the Merch and sporting ware I can find and I will for sure look to watch some live streams soccer matches and spend any extra time and money I have on going to the games live and support the game the way all fathers should in America who has dd playing the sport, all so my dd can participate in soccer.  I lost my mind you guys.  I moron now and hypocrite and full of bullshit and just so confused with nowhere to turn.  No job, no money and no food.  Oh shit, now what should I do? Help, please help me with food stamps, please????  No one loves me in soccer or in real life anymore because "I just say no."  My wife has had it with the dreamer and is not interested in the trailer park hopping life, that I was planning for her and I.  I got this for me and me only, so I can be alone and not be around hypnotized people WHO are now mad at me for choosing to "just say no" to the Wuhan Jab made by the Nerds, Frances, Bill and Tony.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Ellejustus said:


> I'm Pro Choice by the way and not anti-anything.


By your anti-abortion rhetoric i took you as Pro-Life not Pro-Choice.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So OK for some, but “sideways” for others.  What exactly is the distinction, political affiliation?
> 
> oh Biden was in a Press Conference and Maddow was parroting it on her show….


The distinction is whether they are helping people understand the actual science.

“Some people still get infected, therefore the vaccine is a failure” is not a step towards understanding anything.  We already know the vaccine is neither 0% effective nor 100% effective.  It’s in the middle.  Repeatedly saying the vax isn’t perfect doesn’t really add anything to our understanding.

If you want a useful mental model, imagine immunity works by flipping a coin.  If it comes up heads, your immune system kicks in and blocks covid for one month.  Tails, you still get covid and infect your friends.  

If one person has a coin, it helps them a little.  Maybe they flip heads, maybe they don’t.  If almost everyone has a coin, it makes it very hard for the disease to spread, because it keeps running into people who flip heads.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The distinction is whether they are helping people understand the actual science.


You mean while the Science itself is being ignored.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s in the middle.







dad4 said:


> If one person has a coin, it helps them a little.  Maybe they flip heads, maybe they don’t.  If almost everyone has a coin, it makes it very hard for the disease to spread, because it keeps running into people who flip heads.


All the nessie graphs where omicron COVID has taken off belie this point.  I can't believe you are even making it against the omicron.  It's exactly stuff like this which is going to start people (who even CNN has admitted have stopped listening to you) to turn on you.  From the data we know the Pfizer booster even 10 weeks out is IIRC 15% effective at stopping transmission, declining.


----------



## Grace T.

Re serious illness, the vaccines are making a dramatic impact on hospital admissions.  Except for the oldest age groups, however, boosters don't seem to be making much of a difference, for the middle group just being vaxxed seems to make the most difference, and for the under 30 there's still no meaningful distinction for any of this.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480562137734987778


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> The distinction is whether they are helping people understand the actual science.
> 
> “Some people still get infected, therefore the vaccine is a failure”


Who are you quoting?  I never claimed it was a failure, just that it doesn’t provide the immunity that most other vaccines do. 

Not to mention, how do you quantify “some” cause that percentage is rising and rapidly approaching what I would call “most”.


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> *By your anti-abortion rhetoric i took you as Pro-Life not Pro-Choice.*


Bite hard on this logic Kicker 2.0.  I am 100% against abortion and I never have rhetoric on this subject.  Keep hitting lower buddy.  I got balls of steel.  I'm glad your back to be honest.  I want everyone to have this on record:  I will not walk away and turn my back when I see you at the fields.  In fact, I will stay to my left side with plenty of room and I will not say a word to you.  I will only stare at you in your eyes as I walk by.  That is it.  Anything else that happens is on you.  Wow kicker, you went low today but my balls are made of steel....lol!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Remember when smoking was legal on airplanes?


Yes, back when the tobacco industry was the one trying to convince people to not trust science.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Remember when Doctors promoted smoking?


Who did they work for?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> What up BTW, with the empty shelves in some of the blue check cities.  My friend in DC went shopping last night and reported all the shelves were bare.  My bro up in San Francisco said the same thing: not completely bare but pretty much Soviet.  Here in LA the shelves are also sparsely stocked...but maybe sixty percent full.  Are the panicked 1/3 going out and buying up all the water and TP again to hunker down (and is that enough to cause supermarket collapse in the deep blue check cities), or are supply lines beginning to strain due to so many people out sick?


Everyone is out with Covid, no drivers, no stockers.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Who are you quoting?  I never claimed it was a failure, just that it doesn’t provide the immunity that most other vaccines do.
> 
> Not to mention, how do you quantify “some” cause that percentage is rising and rapidly approaching what I would call “most”.


Not as protective as most other vaccines?  

That much I can agree with.  Happy to throw out Pfizer as soon as something better comes along.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> All the nessie graphs where omicron COVID has taken off belie this point.  I can't believe you are even making it against the omicron.  It's exactly stuff like this which is going to start people (who even CNN has admitted have stopped listening to you) to turn on you.  From the data we know the Pfizer booster even 10 weeks out is IIRC 15% effective at stopping transmission, declining.


There are reasons to reduce transmission, even when you can't get R<1.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Everyone is out with Covid, no drivers, no stockers.


Freeways in la seem awful light too. A usual 50 minute commute today took 25 minutes and that was with a traffic break. Don’t know if anyone has actual data.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> There are reasons to reduce transmission, even when you can't get R<1.


No there aren’t. Hospitals aren’t being overwhelmed (they aren’t…even cdc director has spoken about with/covid). There’s no magic solution on the horizon (before everyone gets it). The only thing you are doing is pushing out infections into another wave by leaving dry brush.  And a lot of the unvaxxed has  natural immunity at this point

on the other hand, there are huge downsides to forcing people who are only slightly more contagious than others such as by depriving them of access to civic life.  Cost/benefit. Try it sometime.

at a minimum, you’re the one that always decries anything less than perfect accuracy. Pot meet kettle. You know the 50% thing is false with the omicron…drop your false talking point.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T says....
*The unvaxxed has natural immunity at this point
Huge downsides to forcing people who are only slightly more contagious than others such as by depriving them of access to civic life*. *Cost/benefit. Try it sometime.*

Thanks Grace T for thinking of me.  It's been the hardest time ever.  I feel so "left out" of life and 100% kicked out of civic life.  I hope dad and others can see the truth and see how this is one sided because one side cheated because the one side hated a certain man because the certain orange dude had it all on the higher ups.  I mean, has it all.  Busted!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No there aren’t. Hospitals aren’t being overwhelmed (they aren’t…even cdc director has spoken about with/covid). There’s no magic solution on the horizon (before everyone gets it). The only thing you are doing is pushing out infections into another wave by leaving dry brush.  And a lot of the unvaxxed has  natural immunity at this point
> 
> on the other hand, there are huge downsides to forcing people who are only slightly more contagious than others such as by depriving them of access to civic life.  Cost/benefit. Try it sometime.
> 
> at a minimum, you’re the one that always decries anything less than perfect accuracy. Pot meet kettle. You know the 50% thing is false with the omicron…drop your false talking point.


Post the link to the claim of 15%.

My bet is you're misinterpreting the study again.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Everyone is out with Covid, no drivers, no stockers.



That's a BIG fat LIE.

The supply chain is broken due to Biden's Criminal 
vaccine MANDATES....wait until after January 15 , that's
when the REAL damage will ensue due to all the truckers
losing the ability to drive due to Biden's MANDATES.

Unless the Supreme Court Justices rule against the MANDATES.

Which does not appear they will rule against them.

You and your ilk are a huge problem to society with the way you
LIE about what is really happening.


----------



## thirteenknots

The Meaning Behind “Vaccine” Lots - Webinar from Friday, January 7, 2022 (bitchute.com)


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Post the link to the claim of 15%.
> 
> My bet is you're misinterpreting the study again.


It’s in the chart posted above. Moderna was higher. Not sure if the 10 week figure is 15% or 25% (can’t recall which is why I said iirc) but that was at the limit of the time period boosters tracked at it was declining.  It’s not 50%. You know it. Just fess up and say you were using an exaggerated talking point (we all do it…you always accuse others of doing it….pot kettle).  Otherwise please post a finding that says 10+ weeks out Pfizer remains at 50% efficiency (here’s a hint: you can find one for moderna but also declining).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It’s in the chart posted above. Moderna was higher. Not sure if the 10 week figure is 15% or 25% (can’t recall which is why I said iirc) but that was at the limit of the time period boosters tracked at it was declining.  It’s not 50%. You know it. Just fess up and say you were using an exaggerated talking point (we all do it…you always accuse others of doing it….pot kettle).  Otherwise please post a finding that says 10+ weeks out Pfizer remains at 50% efficiency (here’s a hint: you can find one for moderna but also declining).


Which chart is that?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Which chart is that?






Adam Espola Schiff workin on a snotty retort.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> From a political point of view he hasn't really done his boss any favors.  They sort of assured him and he assured the country that it would be pretty much over last summer.  But now not only are we on triple vaxxed (and people who are complied are still getting sick), but we also have school/sport shut downs around the country, still masking (only now they are trying to put kids into N95s), still have shortages, still have inflation, still have hospital problems, have testing shortages (after 2 years!) and more people than ever are getting it (after having been worked up into a fear frenzy about wanting to avoid the virus).  So you have all this po'd people who did what they were supposed to and still got sick AND are still being punished for it.  They tried to throw the unvaxxed under the bus for that, but when even the triple vaxxed are getting sick, that's a hard sell except to all but the hardest of COVID diehards.
> 
> The reality is there wasn't much Biden could have done (other than controlled his party on schools....the white house still hasn't denounced the Chicago Teacher's Union despite being asked the question a few times now) and history would have played out the same way.  But the messaging has boxed Biden in.  They sold the public zero COVID when from day 1 they should have just said it wasn't going away.   Yayaya....you can say how could they have known about Delta and Omicron....some of us here knew and called it down to the regions involved.
> 
> Ironically, Biden is going to get hoisted on his own petard for embracing vaccines developed under the Trump admin and trying to claim the credit.  He would have been better off politically if he had called it a massive failure of the Trump vax.  Someone is going to get tarred for this....the situation politically requires a scapegoat....time to open the betting pools on Biden, Walensky or Fauci (my money is the CDC director gets pilloried...Fauci is way too savvy having survived too many strengths and Biden's handlers won't let it be him).


He's essentially turned into a clown.  How much funding did the NIH grant to natural immunity research, repurposed drug research, etc.  Plenty of people at the FDA have quit over procedures.  Who came up with the idea that the vaccine dosing  should be done in 3-4 week intervals? Plenty of opposition to that idea....It's joke really.  Pharma CEOs dictating dosing?  

he will eventually fade into obscurity, remembered as the guy who could have have helped.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Post the link to the claim of 15%.
> 
> My bet is you're misinterpreting the study again.


Kind of a tempest in a teapot but here is the VE omicron data for UK again. BNT162B2 = Pfizer.  2 dose regime wih Pfizer booster yields ~50% VE after 10 weeks.  Without booster the 2 dose regime drops to ~15% VE after 20 weeks.  Don't know if that is the data under dispute.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> He's essentially turned into a clown.  How much funding did the NIH grant to natural immunity research, repurposed drug research, etc.  Plenty of people at the FDA have quit over procedures.  Who came up with the idea that the vaccine dosing  should be done in 3-4 week intervals? Plenty of opposition to that idea....It's joke really.  Pharma CEOs dictating dosing?
> 
> he will eventually fade into obscurity, remembered as the guy who could have have helped.


Well, in terms of repurposing drugs there is a very large effort funded through NIH.  There are at least two reasons.  One is that human genome and sequencing projects have not turned up  obvious drug candidates for many diseases to which a small molecule lock and key fit can be found. The second is that for a pharma company repurposing something with prior FDA approval is much cheaper.  






						Repurposing Drugs
					

Discovering new uses for approved drugs to provide the quickest possible transition from bench to bedside. Learn more.




					ncats.nih.gov


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Ellejustus said:


> Bite hard on this logic Kicker 2.0.  I am 100% against abortion and I never have rhetoric on this subject.  Keep hitting lower buddy.  I got balls of steel.  I'm glad your back to be honest.  I want everyone to have this on record:  I will not walk away and turn my back when I see you at the fields.  In fact, I will stay to my left side with plenty of room and I will not say a word to you.  I will only stare at you in your eyes as I walk by.  That is it.  Anything else that happens is on you.  Wow kicker, you went low today but my balls are made of steel....lol!!!


How is that Low?  I just needed clarity.
Keep playing the marter.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who did they work for?


Exactly….kinda makes you wonder who the politicians are working for?


----------



## Desert Hound

Private sector CEO they prosecute.

When in government, they let you step down with your pension intact.









						Fed Vice Chair Clarida to step down early following scrutiny over his trades during pandemic
					

Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Richard Clarida said Monday he will be leaving his post with just a few weeks left on his term.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Columnist for the LA Times.

Was anti vaxxed at first. Now?

Your mainstream press at work.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Columnist for the LA Times.
> 
> Was anti vaxxed at first. Now?
> 
> Your mainstream press at work.
> 
> View attachment 12642


These aren't the journalists you're looking for.
- @dad4


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, in terms of repurposing drugs there is a very large effort funded through NIH.  There are at least two reasons.  One is that human genome and sequencing projects have not turned up  obvious drug candidates for many diseases to which a small molecule lock and key fit can be found. The second is that for a pharma company repurposing something with prior FDA approval is much cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repurposing Drugs
> 
> 
> Discovering new uses for approved drugs to provide the quickest possible transition from bench to bedside. Learn more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ncats.nih.gov


April 2021 is very late in the game to get serious about funding this type of research.  Many did this on their own.  Fluvoxamin comes to mind.  There are other examples out there that showed promise.  There is  more coordinated and resourced effort underway now, with the NIH fully on board.    The HCQ debacle may have muted more robust efforts to repurpose existing, safe drugs for early treatment.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> It’s in the chart posted above. Moderna was higher. Not sure if the 10 week figure is 15% or 25% (can’t recall which is why I said iirc) but that was at the limit of the time period boosters tracked at it was declining.  It’s not 50%. You know it. Just fess up and say you were using an exaggerated talking point (we all do it…you always accuse others of doing it….pot kettle).  Otherwise please post a finding that says 10+ weeks out Pfizer remains at 50% efficiency (here’s a hint: you can find one for moderna but also declining).


I think evil goalie found it.  

Mostly, I was trying to find an analogy to explain how weak individual protection can add up to a meaningful community-wide effect.  The 20 week pfizer booster is 50%, but that is just a coincidence.  Nothing in the thought experiment requires that all the coins be fair.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I think evil goalie found it.
> 
> Mostly, I was trying to find an analogy to explain how weak individual protection can add up to a meaningful community-wide effect.  The 20 week pfizer booster is 50%, but that is just a coincidence.  Nothing in the thought experiment requires that all the coins be fair.


If I understand it correctly, the R number is just the common ratio defining the geometric progression of infection.  I may be off on that, but I think that is right. Let omicron R=10.  Assume a 100% vaxxed large population where each individual has an equivalent risk. If VE is 15%, Re=8.5.  If VE is 50%, Re = 5. Running such a simple model over five infection cycles yields the numbers below.  I don't know if that is the thought experiment you had in mind.  

R10: 1,10,100, 1000, 10,000 total infections.
R8.5: 1, 9, 72, 614, 5220 total infections.
R5: 1, 5, 25, 125, 625 total infections.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Exactly….kinda makes you wonder who the politicians are working for?


The highest bidder in most cases and the ones with any integrity are labeled crazy, socialist (they mean communist but are aware most people don’t know the difference) or anti-American.


----------



## Ellejustus

"Dr. Liar, Dr. Liar, please report to ICU."  Dr. F, Dr. Fraud is sure one snake oil salesman.  Wowza!  In Lies We Trust!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

Dr. F & the boss lady over at CDC have a meeting today with the Senate @10am.  Get some popcorn out.......


----------



## Desert Hound

So they are finally getting around to admitting that surgical masks do not work vis a vis respiratory viruses.

_The agency will likely advise people opt for the highly protective N95 or KN95 masks worn by healthcare personnel, if they can do so consistently, the newspaper reported, citing an official close to the deliberations.

The CDC guidance is expected to say that *if people can "tolerate wearing a KN95 or N95 mask all day, you should," the report said.*_

--

Of course there is the caveat...IF someone can wear a N95 all day. We know they are only designed for a very short period of time if fitted correctly (big if) because they are very uncomfortable.









						U.S. CDC may recommend better masks against Omicron - Washington Post
					

The agency will likely advise people opt for the highly protective N95 or KN95 masks worn by healthcare personnel, if they can do so consistently, the newspaper reported, citing an official close to the deliberations.  The CDC guidance is expected to say that if people can "tolerate wearing a...




					news.yahoo.com
				




And as a reminder just a few years ago the CDC in their description of surgical masks said they are ineffective vs small particles and are not designed to be used for respiratory viruses. Note the category FILTRATION below.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So they are finally getting around to admitting that surgical masks do not work vis a vis respiratory viruses.
> 
> _The agency will likely advise people opt for the highly protective N95 or KN95 masks worn by healthcare personnel, if they can do so consistently, the newspaper reported, citing an official close to the deliberations.
> 
> The CDC guidance is expected to say that *if people can "tolerate wearing a KN95 or N95 mask all day, you should," the report said.*_
> 
> --
> 
> Of course there is the caveat...IF someone can wear a N95 all day. We know they are only designed for a very short period of time if fitted correctly (big if) because they are very uncomfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. CDC may recommend better masks against Omicron - Washington Post
> 
> 
> The agency will likely advise people opt for the highly protective N95 or KN95 masks worn by healthcare personnel, if they can do so consistently, the newspaper reported, citing an official close to the deliberations.  The CDC guidance is expected to say that if people can "tolerate wearing a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as a reminder just a few years ago the CDC in their description of surgical masks said they are ineffective vs small particles and are not designed to be used for respiratory viruses. Note the category FILTRATION below.
> 
> View attachment 12646


No, that’s not what they are saying.  

But glad to hear you’re going to start wearing your N95.


----------



## Ellejustus

Two mask dance and let's get the kids shot........


----------



## Desert Hound

Some food for thought as we think back on the useless restrictions placed on us.

_Covid deaths in nursing homes amount on average to a *staggering 40% of all Covid deaths in Western countries, despite representing less than 1% of the population.*_
--

And yet we created policies affected the public as a whole despite the info above.

--
_Yet soon into the pandemic, it became clear that Covid-19 was almost exclusively a threat to the elderly (60+): in the last quarter of 2020, the mean age of those dying both with and of Covid-19 in the UK __was 82.4,_

--

_Meanwhile in the US, the end of 2021 confirmed the reality *that lockdown strategies had little or no impact on Covid mortality*. The two neighbouring states of Michigan and Wisconsin followed very different Covid policies, with Michigan favouring severe restrictions while Wisconsin lifted them much earlier; yet at the start of this month, Michigan’s Covid mortality rate was far higher than Wisconsin’s, at 2,906 deaths per million compared to 1,919 per million in Wisconsin. Another stark example comes from comparing two other neighbouring states: North and South Dakota. South Dakota infamously imposed no Covid restrictions, while there were mask mandates in North Dakota during the second wave in Winter 2020/2021: yet as of January 1st 2022, the two states’ death rates are very similar, at 2,810 per million (South Dakota) and 2,640 (North Dakota).

--

As Piero Stanig and Gianmarco Daniele, two professors at Bocconi University, explain in their book Fallimento lockdown (“Lockdown Failure”), the *worst possible thing you can do when dealing with a highly infectious disease that spreads almost exclusively indoors and targets the elderly is to lock old people up inside their homes with other family members*, and ban citizens from spending time *in arguably the safest place of all: outdoors. I*n other words, even from the narrow perspective of saving lives, not only were lockdowns not in the collective interest of society, they weren’t even in the interest of those whose lives were actually at risk.









						Has the Great Barrington Declaration been vindicated?
					

Lockdowns failed to serve the collective good




					unherd.com
				



_


----------



## Ellejustus

More curve balls coming FYI....DR. W


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> No, that’s not what they are saying.
> 
> But glad to hear you’re going to start wearing your N95.


That is exactly what they are saying. If surgical masks actually worked, they would not have moved their recommendation to N95s. 

Note their CDC guidance from 2018. And to date there really are not any studies that suddenly found wow surgical masks work. They were never designed for respiratory viruses. Politicians of course had to "do something" so suddenly they became mandated. And despite decades of research showing they are not designed for respiratory viruses people started wearing them religiously.

Now you don't like to admit it, but indeed you have by your actions admitted surgical masks don't work. You long ago realized they don't work and opted for n95s. 

Myself? I am not wearing an N95. 

I long ago moved on and started living a normal life.

If a place requires them, I put on a mask despite knowing it is safety theater. 

The only masks that work are the n95s (and of course the higher level ones). The problem witn N95s is that even medical personal have to be trained to use them properly. That of course means that the vast majority of the public wearing them are wearing them incorrectly. 

Further? They are designed for short periods of time. Not a couple of hours or more. 

And finally as part of the process they need to be fit tested. 

What does that mean? It means that these masks will not stop the spread of the virus either.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hey Norm, it's official.  No going back to normal.  Based on what Dr. F and Dr. W just said, more curve balls, more waves and surges with new variants will be hitting us all forever.  Boostered forever you guys.  Look, if this is the life you choose, I will step away and allow you your freedom to choose injections in your arms.  Plus, wear two mask to be safe and stay home with a mask on.  No hugs, only when your team scores a TD....lol!!!  They want to booster the kids for some reason.  Father Fraud thinks the best thing to do is inject yourself and your children every 5 months.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think evil goalie found it.
> 
> Mostly, I was trying to find an analogy to explain how weak individual protection can add up to a meaningful community-wide effect.  The 20 week pfizer booster is 50%, but that is just a coincidence.  Nothing in the thought experiment requires that all the coins be fair.


Yes, they do.  I'll take you back to your R1 point you always talk about.  Otherwise, the only thing you are doing is delaying things.  I'll give you a real world example: chicken pox pre vaccine.  You would have outbreaks where 1/2 the class would come down with it.  That wasn't enough, though, even with parents trying to infect their kids, to have another outbreak 1 year later among the remainder of the class, and that's with a stable virus that isn't highly mutatable or going zoonotic.  I'm the perfect example of this.  I caught chicken pox at age 20 despite both my siblings having had it in grade school and despite having gone through 3 class outbreaks.  I wasn't around small children at the time and wasn't with any yet to be infected roommates or family members...yet the virus still eventually found me. The only thing you are accomplishing by slowing things down is pushing things into another wave.  A virus this contagious will eventually find you.


----------



## Grace T.

True....this is the population that we need to focus on since boosters seem to have a noticeable effect on this group.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480933985433890820


----------



## Grace T.

The UK review of masks in schools found they didn't make much of difference/not statistically significant.









						Study used to justify UK school mask rules fails to prove they work
					

The UK government announced this week that students in secondary school will have to wear face coverings.




					nypost.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The UK review of masks in schools found they didn't make much of difference/not statistically significant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Study used to justify UK school mask rules fails to prove they work
> 
> 
> The UK government announced this week that students in secondary school will have to wear face coverings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


If there were studies that showed they actually worked, the news would be hammering it home all day long. 

What we get time and time again is "inconclusive". 

The reason? 

Surgical masks were not and are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.

We have hundreds of millions of people using masks throughout the world over the past couple of years and yet we don't find conclusive studies showing surgical masks do anything to stop the spread.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> If there were studies that showed they actually worked, the news would be hammering it home all day long.
> 
> What we get time and time again is "inconclusive".
> 
> The reason?
> 
> Surgical masks were not and are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> We have hundreds of millions of people using masks throughout the world over the past couple of years and yet we don't find conclusive studies showing surgical masks do anything to stop the spread.


'Another take from the BBC.  A point six percent change in absences.








						Covid: Evidence on face masks in schools 'inconclusive'
					

Government admits uncertainty over whether face coverings will truly cut Covid spread.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yes, they do.  I'll take you back to your R1 point you always talk about.  Otherwise, the only thing you are doing is delaying things.  I'll give you a real world example: chicken pox pre vaccine.  You would have outbreaks where 1/2 the class would come down with it.  That wasn't enough, though, even with parents trying to infect their kids, to have another outbreak 1 year later among the remainder of the class, and that's with a stable virus that isn't highly mutatable or going zoonotic.  I'm the perfect example of this.  I caught chicken pox at age 20 despite both my siblings having had it in grade school and despite having gone through 3 class outbreaks.  I wasn't around small children at the time and wasn't with any yet to be infected roommates or family members...yet the virus still eventually found me. The only thing you are accomplishing by slowing things down is pushing things into another wave.  A virus this contagious will eventually find you.


When R changes, it changes the peak height, time to peak, and area under the curve.  For anyone with staffing problems this month, all three of those are big problems.

 R is a parameter in a system of differential equations.  Why do you insist on telling me what it means?  Your math topped out at calc, and calc is not enough to do the analysis you’re attempting.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 'Another take from the BBC.  A point six percent change in absences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: Evidence on face masks in schools 'inconclusive'
> 
> 
> Government admits uncertainty over whether face coverings will truly cut Covid spread.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Not 0.6 percent.  0.6 percentage point.  Out of a total of 3.6 percentage points.

That is a 16.7 percent change in absences.  Not too shabby.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Not 0.6 percent. 0.6 percentage point. Out of a total of 3.6 percentage points.
> 
> That is a 16.7 percent change in absences. Not too shabby.


The authors of that study noted that their findings were not statistically significant between the 2. 

Stop clinging to your religion.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> The authors of that study noted that their findings were not statistically significant between the 2.
> 
> Stop clinging to your religion.


He is smarter than them….duh


----------



## Ellejustus

Blame it in on the rain.  Dr. Fraud just lies when he talks.  900,000 died "from" Covid.  We need to see if this holds true.  He keeps saying it.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He is smarter than them….duh


The authors and I both know the difference between “proven false” and “unproven”.

This is a case of unproven.  Grace was trying to make it sound like “proven false”, but got tripped up on her middle school math.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> The authors and I both know the difference between “proven false” and “unproven”.
> 
> This is a case of unproven.  Grace was trying to make it sound like “proven false”, but got tripped up on her middle school math.


You and your pals have taken two years of kids lives and ruined so many small businesses.  Karma is coming for everyone!!!


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> If there were studies that showed they actually worked, the news would be hammering it home all day long.
> 
> What we get time and time again is "inconclusive".
> 
> The reason?
> 
> Surgical masks were not and are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> We have hundreds of millions of people using masks throughout the world over the past couple of years and yet we don't find conclusive studies showing surgical masks do anything to stop the spread.


Funny how we are back to square one for masks.  To many, it's not a suprise.  They've never worked, they are not designed to do what talking heads want them to do.  N95s are impractical for society.  If anything, masks really only stop you from transferring stuff you pick up from a surface to your mouth and nose.  They are pretty effective at that.  I think one study out of Austrailia demonstrated people touch their faces 23 times an hour.  I'm sure the study was done pre SARS-COV-2 and no one really cared.  But, from an altruistic point of view, given the cultural obsession with masks, wearing a masks makes some feel better.

These are the last gasps of a poorly messaged and executed public health campaign.  Plenty of blame to go around.   Nothing like politics to get in the way of saving people's lives.  Nothing like a medical emergency to make a ton of money.  Both can be true at the same time.  

Besides, corona viruses have never been challenged with a feasable vaccine.  This is a first.  A good first effort, should be appluaded and the tools resulting from great scientific and medical efforts should be used to treat patients.


----------



## Ellejustus

I just heard Dr. Fraud say the following under his breath, "What a moron.  Jesus Christ!" after being questioned about his $434,312.00 Year gig+ kickbacks+ + +.  Everyone, you're witnessing how not to lie.  This guy is so defensive and wants to talk way too much.  Too much talking ((especially under your breath with hot mic is stupid)) will only get you in trouble.  This guy is so guilty.  Using babies, beagle, monkeys, rats & bats and all in between to make one sic cocktail  WTF everyone.  Just watch this guy lie.....


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> When R changes, it changes the peak height, time to peak, and area under the curve.  For anyone with staffing problems this month, all three of those are big problems.
> 
> R is a parameter in a system of differential equations.  Why do you insist on telling me what it means?  Your math topped out at calc, and calc is not enough to do the analysis you’re attempting.


You're thinking is still 3 dimensional.   You are playing 2d chess when what is required is 3 because you are always neglecting the factor of time.  The peak, time to peak, and area under the curve does not matter at all.  We've divorced death and hospitalization from cases thanks to the vaccine (yeah, I know it's no perfect.  It would be better if the old people got their boosters).  Hospitals are not in danger of collapse.  Staffing problems are in huge part due to our continued insane policies dedicated to COVID 0.  The ONLY thing you are doing by interfering with an otherwise natural process is pushing things out to a future date and prolonging the emergency.

In April of 2020 I noted that the best analogy for all this is a forest fire.  It's still the best analogy.  The only thing you are doing is leaving a bunch of dry brush ready for another inferno to burn again

What we should be doing, given the radical impact on hospitalizations, is boosting the over sixty crowd.  You want a mandate?  Mandate it for that group instead of the group that least benefits from it (children) in the insane continuing pursuit of COVID 0

"Khan isn't used to thinking in 3 dimensions.  While he might command a starship, he is not a starship captain"


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> You thinking is still 3 dimensional.   You are playing 2d chess when what is required is 3 because you are always neglecting the factor of time.  The peak, time to peak, and area under the curve does not matter at all.  We've divorced death and hospitalization from cases thanks to the vaccine (yeah, I know it's no perfect.  It would be better if the old people got their boosters).  Hospitals are not in danger of collapse.  Staffing problems are in huge part due to our continued insane policies dedicated to COVID 0.  The ONLY thing you are doing by interfering with an otherwise natural process is pushing things out to a future date and prolonging the emergency.
> 
> In April of 2020 I noted that the best analogy for all this is a forest fire.  It's still the best analogy.  The only thing you are doing is leaving a bunch of dry brush ready for another inferno to burn again
> 
> What we should be doing, given the radical impact on hospitalizations, is boosting the over sixty crowd.  You want a mandate?  Mandate it for that group instead of the group that least benefits from it (children) in the insane continuing pursuit of COVID 0


5D chess is now in session!!


----------



## thirteenknots

Desert Hound said:


> Columnist for the LA Times.
> 
> Was anti vaxxed at first. Now?
> 
> Your mainstream press at work.
> 
> View attachment 12642



To imply that Trump plotted anything as such is 
absolutely 100% an " Adam Espola Schiff "...!


----------



## Ellejustus

"Highly effective" is the new marketing term.  "Suggestive effective"  "Might be harmful."  This is bullshit and I will be shocked if my fence sitter friends will stay on the fence.  We are ALL getting played with our lives.


----------



## Ellejustus

"likely less"


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The authors and I both know the difference between “proven false” and “unproven”.
> 
> This is a case of unproven.  Grace was trying to make it sound like “proven false”, but got tripped up on her middle school math.


Hah the subtle insult again from the guy always decrying the ads.  You are such a hypocrite.

In any case, you've been given 2 years to prove your theories.  The best so far is a flawed Bangladesh study that didn't even shown any benefit to cloth masks.

Next!


----------



## Grace T.

Some actual sanity.  About freaking time.





__





						Athletes Who Had COVID Will Be Considered ‘Fully Vaccinated,’ NCAA Says in New Guidelines | Jon Miltimore
					

The NCAA's new COVID-19 guidance for winter sports contained some huge news.



					fee.org


----------



## Grace T.

More sanity but not in the crazy COVID US zero cult.  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467690904114790403


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You're thinking is still 3 dimensional.   You are playing 2d chess when what is required is 3 because you are always neglecting the factor of time.  The peak, time to peak, and area under the curve does not matter at all.  We've divorced death and hospitalization from cases thanks to the vaccine (yeah, I know it's no perfect.  It would be better if the old people got their boosters).  Hospitals are not in danger of collapse.  Staffing problems are in huge part due to our continued insane policies dedicated to COVID 0.  The ONLY thing you are doing by interfering with an otherwise natural process is pushing things out to a future date and prolonging the emergency.
> 
> In April of 2020 I noted that the best analogy for all this is a forest fire.  It's still the best analogy.  The only thing you are doing is leaving a bunch of dry brush ready for another inferno to burn again
> 
> What we should be doing, given the radical impact on hospitalizations, is boosting the over sixty crowd.  You want a mandate?  Mandate it for that group instead of the group that least benefits from it (children) in the insane continuing pursuit of COVID 0
> 
> "Khan isn't used to thinking in 3 dimensions.  While he might command a starship, he is not a starship captain"


We are talking about people, not dry brush.  

And, if you insist on a forest fire analogy, you are suggesting we do an uncontrolled burn in mid summer with no spare fire suppression capacity.  









						Covid-19 Hospitalizations Reported in U.S. Hit New High
					

The nation’s seven-day average reached 140,576, federal government data show, more than the previous high recorded during the surge last winter.




					www.wsj.com
				




ps- The whole 2 dim/3 dim thing is just you bragging.  You might want to brush up on your percentages first.  It sounds kind of lame when you tell me how awesome you are just after you messed up a middle school math problem.


----------



## Grace T.

Omicron reduction in severity








						Clinical outcomes among patients infected with Omicron (B.1.1.529) SARS-CoV-2 variant in southern California
					

Background The Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant of SARS-CoV-2 has rapidly achieved global dissemination, accounting for most infections in the United States by December 2021. Risk of severe outcomes associated with Omicron infections, as compared to earlier SARS-CoV-2 variants, remains unclear...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## Ellejustus

Triple Vax and double masked Dr. W today in costume.  You guys, this is not funny any more.  My freedom has been stolen from folks like this, Dad, The Husler, EOTL and Espola.  They did this because they hate t and his followers and those who might support one of t's agenda's.  I'm for adoptions.  I want more and more kids born and not used as experiments.  This is nothing you guys.  I don;t share any truths with most of you because you can;t handle the TRUTH.  However, I bet that most of you have a heart and once the TRUTH comes out, you will puke and feel depressed and probably a little guilty for turning a blind eye to the TRUTH.  The TRUTH hurts, that's why bad people run from the TRUTH and straight to darkness.  Darkness was easy to find in the past but now no more. The light will expose everything.  Emails and text is gold!!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> If there were studies that showed they actually worked, the news would be hammering it home all day long.


Not if you read "real journalists". Although, I am still waiting for @dad4 to identify them.



Desert Hound said:


> If there were studies that showed they actually worked, the news would be hammering it home all day long.
> 
> What we get time and time again is "inconclusive".
> 
> The reason?
> 
> Surgical masks were not and are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> We have hundreds of millions of people using masks throughout the world over the past couple of years and yet we don't find conclusive studies showing surgical masks do anything to stop the spread.


The other reason is that while lab results appear to show at least some level of efficacy of masking - something many Covidians cling to - lab results don't account for human behavior in terms of both how masks are worn by the public and how behavior may be modified by being "masked" where the those who are masked interact more than they would if they weren't masked.

To me, it's very clear that the vaccine reduced the spread significantly. However, I am not convinced there was significant value to adding masks to distancing and meeting only in well-ventilated indoor areas. If saving people from dying was the goal, effort should have been put into a health and fitness campaign over a year and a half ago when we realized who was at risk beyond the elderly. This effort would not have been specific to COVID and also would have helped mitigate the emotional illnesses that have exploded since Covid.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We are talking about people, not dry brush.
> 
> And, if you insist on a forest fire analogy, you are suggesting we do an uncontrolled burn in mid summer with no spare fire suppression capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 Hospitalizations Reported in U.S. Hit New High
> 
> 
> The nation’s seven-day average reached 140,576, federal government data show, more than the previous high recorded during the surge last winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps- The whole 2 dim/3 dim thing is just you bragging.  You might want to brush up on your percentages first.  It sounds kind of lame when you tell me how awesome you are just after you messed up a middle school math problem.


1. you and I both know what I meant.  You are being a bombastic prick (you've lost all right to complain about ads) for someone who has been shown to have a limited thought process, and you know it.  I'm not trying to be mathematically precise (don't care...it's not important).  It was a reduction of point six from the percentage rate of one to the other from two small starting numbers.

2. Doesn't cover up that your thinking is limiting.  You've constantly overlooked that.  Your thinking is constantly limited by only what you know and in the box thinking.

3. "We are talking about people" is the same thing as "think of the children" or "every life matters no matter what the cost".  The sad reality is this is a pandemic and there are enormous costs on the other side of the scale.  You can't just avoid doing a cost benefit analysis.  Otherwise, for starters, we'd ban cars and swimming pools.

4. It's not middle summer (the omicron has us in late winter).  We have fire suppression (the vaccines). And we don't have anything else on the horizon that will be deployed quick enough to help.  Aren't you always the one saying the vaccines "work"????  Don't you believe your own propaganda.

and that's some pretty big cajones to deploy the the entire hospitalization argument when we already know the dam has broken on the with/from issue


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hah the subtle insult again from the guy always decrying the ads.  You are such a hypocrite.
> 
> In any case, you've been given 2 years to prove your theories.  The best so far is a flawed Bangladesh study that didn't even shown any benefit to cloth masks.
> 
> Next!


The ad, in this case, is unarguable.  Your take on the UK study was completely wrong, and it was wrong because of a middle school math error.

Now stop patting yourself on the back and boasting about how awesome you are.  It just reminds me of 6th grade boys talking big as they hide their tests under their binders.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> The ad, in this case, is unarguable.  Your take on the UK study was completely wrong, and it was wrong because of a middle school math error.
> 
> Now stop patting yourself on the back and boasting about how awesome you are.  It just reminds me of 6th grade boys talking big as they hide their tests under their binders.


Dad, come on man.  I want you to cross over to the side of the TRUTH.  Honestly and I mean this, and please answer this question(s) with honesty.  I love it when people give it to me straight.  Here are my curiosity questions floating in my little brain.  

Q- Did you watch the hearing today? 

Q- On a scale of 1-10, how good are you at reading people when they lie?

Q- If you ctach a person in a lie, do you confront on the spot or hold it in?

Q-  Have you ever been a part of a deposition where one swears on the good book, on video, and swears before everyone that they will tell the WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the WHOLE TRUTH, so help you God ((or little god, whichever God(s) you choose))?

Q- Where do you see Math in the next two years?

Q- True or False.  Three highly regarded Docs from Oxford, Stanford and Harvard disagree 100% with Dr. Fauci and think he is wrong in so many areas of this pandemic and for that, they have been made out to be nut jobs


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The ad, in this case, is unarguable.  Your take on the UK study was completely wrong, and it was wrong because of a middle school math error.
> 
> Now stop patting yourself on the back and boasting about how awesome you are.  It just reminds me of 6th grade boys talking big as they hide their tests under their binders.


Of course it would from your perspective.  But what's really happening is that the sixth grade boys are sitting there making fun of their teacher for being all too enthusiastic of a particular subject matter, expecting them to be, and laughing about what's become of this strange person's life (hoping they won't ever end up like him).  We're into some real Rashomon level stuff now.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Not 0.6 percent.  0.6 percentage point.  Out of a total of 3.6 percentage points.
> 
> That is a 16.7 percent change in absences.  Not too shabby.


Well, it is a 0.6 percent change in attendance, right? I suggest that to avoid confusion when presenting to the general public, it is best to use that instead of a percent of a percent since the size of basis is unambiguous - all students. The smaller the basis the more prone it is to making noise appear significant. In the extreme, consider two classes of 100 students where 1 student is absent from one class and 2 from the other. The difference in attendance is 1% while the difference in absences is 100%.


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> Triple Vax and double masked Dr. W today in costume.  You guys, this is not funny any more.  My freedom has been stolen from folks like this, Dad, The Husler, EOTL and Espola.  They did this because they hate t and his followers and those who might support one of t's agenda's.  I'm for adoptions.  I want more and more kids born and not used as experiments.  This is nothing you guys.  I don;t share any truths with most of you because you can;t handle the TRUTH.  However, I bet that most of you have a heart and once the TRUTH comes out, you will puke and feel depressed and probably a little guilty for turning a blind eye to the TRUTH.  The TRUTH hurts, that's why bad people run from the TRUTH and straight to darkness.  Darkness was easy to find in the past but now no more. The light will expose everything.  Emails and text is gold!!!!
> 
> View attachment 12648


Yup, we stole your freedom.  We and a cabal of youth soccer DOCs took everything from you.


----------



## Speed

Grace T. said:


> Some actual sanity.  About freaking time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athletes Who Had COVID Will Be Considered ‘Fully Vaccinated,’ NCAA Says in New Guidelines | Jon Miltimore
> 
> 
> The NCAA's new COVID-19 guidance for winter sports contained some huge news.
> 
> 
> 
> fee.org





Grace T. said:


> Some actual sanity.  About freaking time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athletes Who Had COVID Will Be Considered ‘Fully Vaccinated,’ NCAA Says in New Guidelines | Jon Miltimore
> 
> 
> The NCAA's new COVID-19 guidance for winter sports contained some huge news.
> 
> 
> 
> fee.org


all this does is buy the athletes 90 days. After the 90 days starts all over.


----------



## Ellejustus

GoldenGate said:


> Yup, we stole your freedom.  We and a cabal of youth soccer DOCs took everything from you.


That was satire dummy.  We were all born into slavery.  You, me, Kicker 2.0, Espola and the rest of the best.  It was only one Doc that just lied through his teeth and spoke lie all day and night and all the time about this and that and had so much oil to rub on the rich dad's backs that rich dad got what he paid for.  Sicko Golden Gate.  Life has brought you to the sewer.  Welcome aboard brah!!!  No life is better then anyone else's life.  Dr. Fraud is the biggest liar ever and don;t forget that.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> In the extreme, consider two classes of 100 students where 1 student is absent from one class and 2 from the other. The difference in attendance is 1% while the difference in absences is 100%.


And per usual that is the problem with dad as to how he frames it. 

The study which the authors said was inconclusive said essentially. If one school had 100 students 3 might be out if masks were worn. If the other school with 100 didn't have students it would be 3.6 students out...or to round up 4. 

And as they looked at those numbers said it has inconclusive as to if masks actually make a difference. 

And as stated many times. If masks actually made a difference we would have numerous studies showing that to be the case. 2 yrs into this we do not.That is VERY TELLING. 

Combine that with the fact that prior to the politicization of masks, the CDC and other entities all were very clear surgical masks are not designed to protect someone against a respiratory virus. Those masks were simply not designed do to that kind of work.


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> That was satire dummy.  We were all born into slavery.  You, me, Kicker 2.0, Espola and the rest of the best.  It was only one Doc that just lied through his teeth and spoke lie all day and night and all the time about this and that and had so much oil to rub on the rich dad's backs that rich dad got what he paid for.  Sicko Golden Gate.  Life has brought you to the sewer.  Welcome aboard brah!!!  No life is better then anyone else's life.  Dr. Fraud is the biggest liar ever and don;t forget that.


By "[n]o life is better then [sic] anyone else's life", I take it you mean that you should get everything for free because you're too lazy to get a job and support your family, and you think it's unfair that people who work hard for a living can afford things that your lazy arse cannot.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Speed said:


> all this does is buy the athletes 90 days. After the 90 days starts all over.


Do they have to get a booster every 90 days?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, it is a 0.6 percent change in attendance, right? I suggest that to avoid confusion when presenting to the general public, it is best to use that instead of a percent of a percent since the size of basis is unambiguous - all students. The smaller the basis the more prone it is to making noise appear significant. In the extreme, consider two classes of 100 students where 1 student is absent from one class and 2 from the other. The difference in attendance is 1% while the difference in absences is 100%.


Yep. A 0.6 percent change to attendance, and a 16.7 percent change to absences.

Now imagine 25 kids who are utterly confused, and three who can’t wait for the chapter to be over because they got it right the first time.  That’s 6th grade math.


----------



## Brav520

Biden: “We have 51 Presidents in the Senate”


----------



## Grace T.

Speed said:


> all this does is buy the athletes 90 days. After the 90 days starts all over.


It moves the overton window.  I'm happy with just moving at this point considering the place of insanity we are in.  Given the declining efficacy even in boosters, we are on clocks there too so the clocks are on a bigger battle field


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Now imagine 25 kids who are utterly confused, and three who can’t wait for the chapter to be over because they got it right the first time. That’s 6th grade math.


Imagine someone who for the past 2 yrs was sure his ideas would work.

- close bars/restaurants
- close a variety of other biz
- close schools
- close outdoor sports
- limit travel
- was for silly stuff like testing teams before tournaments at a cost of at the time of more than 1k or so at the time
- wanted people not to visit other people
- as he was looking at his models never took into account human nature and the real world
- was sure the realists who said we are going to have to live with this were wrong.
- etc. etc. 

And 2 yrs into this....who has been proven right as to what would happen? Team covid or team reality?

As we are seeing day by day reality is setting in and we are moving every closer to where team reality said we would have to end up.

Models do not work when one discounts real world data and does not take into account how people will act.

This is why we do not let math types set policy.

You are like Baghdad Bob at this point.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Those masks were simply not designed do to that kind of work.


We also always come back to definitional problem.  It depends what you mean by "work".  In this case, "work" was to provide essential workers some level of comfort while forcing them into situations that might be dangerous given the long term exposures at jobs, so that the upper middle class while they did their jobs in the pajamas could have their take out, marijuana, liquor, amazon goods, new houses, pool and amenities installation, and plumbing done.  That "worked" pretty well until the teachers balked (since they considered themselves part of the pajama class and not akin to supermarket workers, amazon delivery people, AC/heating guys, or garbage collectors).  It also created the problem that by telling people this stuff, once it was clear the vaccines didn't "work" (meaning in this case preventing the transmission of a disease you scared a segment of the population into believing had a fifty percent chance of putting you into the hospital) you were left without offramps for how to end all this.


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Imagine someone who for the past 2 yrs was sure his ideas would work.
> 
> - close bars/restaurants
> - close a variety of other biz
> - close schools
> - close outdoor sports
> - limit travel
> - was for silly stuff like testing teams before tournaments at a cost of at the time of more than 1k or so at the time
> - wanted people not to visit other people
> - as he was looking at his models never took into account human nature and the real world
> - was sure the realists who said we are going to have to live with this were wrong.
> - etc. etc.
> 
> And 2 yrs into this....who has been proven right as to what would happen? Team covid or team reality?
> 
> As we are seeing day by day reality is setting in and we are moving every closer to where team reality said we would have to end up.
> 
> Models do not work when one discounts real world data and does not take into account how people will act.
> 
> This is why we do not let math types set policy.
> 
> You are like Baghdad Bob at this point.


Or understand we are dealing with a respiratory virus and the reality of what that actually entails in terms of trying to contain it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yep. A 0.6 percent change to attendance, and a 16.7 percent change to absences.
> 
> Now imagine 25 kids who are utterly confused, and three who can’t wait for the chapter to be over because they got it right the first time.  That’s 6th grade math.


Clearly not teaching the honors class.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Clearly not teaching the honors class.


This is California.  We don’t do honors classes for 6th grade.  We pretend everyone is equal.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> This is California.  We don’t do honors classes for 6th grade.  We pretend everyone is equal.


Unless you are Newsom's kids and go to private school


----------



## Grace T.

o.k.  I'm really scratching my head here.  The newest push out of the Biden admin is to eliminate the fillibuster (or at least exempt it for this one case) prior to moving through the voting rights act (which already Manchin and Sinema have said they won't do, and several others are on the fence about).  Meanwhile, the CDC director is under fire, Fauci is doing his usual combat against the Rs, the Chicago teachers union and several other areas are pushing no school (or no sports), the store shelves in blue cities are running anywhere from Soviet to somewhat bare, inflation is running high, and everyone is getting sick with COVID (despite some people having "done everything right" and triple vaxxed).  I really don't get it.  Biden campaigned as a moderate who would restore sanity after Trump, but this is some hard core lefty to stuff, and not just hard core lefty stuff (which I'm not opining as to individual policies whether they make sense or don't) but stuff which people don't even really care about now (since a large group of people including some Ds and a lot of independents are really really really really very upset about the wheels coming off on COVID policy which now seems to be everyone is going to get it but let's push it off (for some undisclosed reason) as much as possible).  This just isn't good politics so I'm wondering what the intent is....even if it passes the midterms are off the table so the only thing I can conclude is that it's just a long term power grab for 2024 and beyond and they've concluded their chances are so bad that they figure they need to do this (and take the political hit for appearing to be off message with people's real concerns) now or lose their opportunity forever (considering it's a hail mary anyway to begin with!!!).  That power grab would have to be so great that it would relegate the Republican party into the wilderness for a generation (since as soon as you get an R president and congress they'll just nuke the fillibuster and undo it all).  Mark it in your calendar people: today is the day the wheels came off the Biden admin.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Unless you are Newsom's kids and go to private school


The legal seagull is still bitter that her prediction about the recall was about as accurate as all of her other predictions.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> It moves the overton window.  I'm happy with just moving at this point considering the place of insanity we are in.  Given the declining efficacy even in boosters, we are on clocks there too so the clocks are on a bigger battle field


It follows zero science. This insanity is making organizations more dumb than they were before.  US Soccer demanding 13-14 yr old healthy girls be vaccinated for a YNT camp, the NCAA doing it's thing with vaccine mandates.  The level of ineptitue in the face of clinical data is astonishing.  Check to see how many healthy U18s have died in the UK.  Also check out how many U17s have died of pneumonia VS covid over the last year.  And before panties get in a wad, stratify the data to sift out comorbids.   The resulting data is pretty clear and provides parents the information needed to make a decisions on vaccinating a child under your care.  

Vaccine mandate implemenation struggles  once you gain access to information. I suppose the issue is that many people are more dumb than they should be ...especially with "100s of thousands of kids in the hospital, many on ventilators"  headlines floating out of the mouth of educated people.  If that were true, the calculus would change...but it's not, not even close and has never been.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> o.k.  I'm really scratching my head here.  The newest push out of the Biden admin is to eliminate the fillibuster (or at least exempt it for this one case) prior to moving through the voting rights act (which already Manchin and Sinema have said they won't do, and several others are on the fence about).  Meanwhile, the CDC director is under fire, Fauci is doing his usual combat against the Rs, the Chicago teachers union and several other areas are pushing no school (or no sports), the store shelves in blue cities are running anywhere from Soviet to somewhat bare, inflation is running high, and everyone is getting sick with COVID (despite some people having "done everything right" and triple vaxxed).  I really don't get it.  Biden campaigned as a moderate who would restore sanity after Trump, but this is some hard core lefty to stuff, and not just hard core lefty stuff (which I'm not opining as to individual policies whether they make sense or don't) but stuff which people don't even really care about now (since a large group of people including some Ds and a lot of independents are really really really really very upset about the wheels coming off on COVID policy which now seems to be everyone is going to get it but let's push it off (for some undisclosed reason) as much as possible).  This just isn't good politics so I'm wondering what the intent is....even if it passes the midterms are off the table so the only thing I can conclude is that it's just a long term power grab for 2024 and beyond and they've concluded their chances are so bad that they figure they need to do this (and take the political hit for appearing to be off message with people's real concerns) now or lose their opportunity forever (considering it's a hail mary anyway to begin with!!!).  That power grab would have to be so great that it would relegate the Republican party into the wilderness for a generation (since as soon as you get an R president and congress they'll just nuke the fillibuster and undo it all).  Mark it in your calendar people: today is the day the wheels came off the Biden admin.


Coocoo.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> It follows zero science. This insanity is making organizations more dumb than they were before.  US Soccer demanding 13-14 yr old healthy girls be vaccinated for a YNT camp, the NCAA doing it's thing with vaccine mandates.  The level of ineptitue in the face of clinical data is astonishing.  Check to see how many healthy U18s have died in the UK.  Also check out how many U17s have died of pneumonia VS covid over the last year.  And before panties get in a wad, stratify the data to sift out comorbids.   The resulting data is pretty clear and provides parents the information needed to make a decisions on vaccinating a child under your care.
> 
> Vaccine mandate implemenation struggles  once you gain access to information. I suppose the issue is that many people are more dumb than they should be ...especially with "100s of thousands of kids in the hospital, many on ventilators"  headlines floating out of the mouth of educated people.  If that were true, the calculus would change...but it's not, not even close and has never been.


Where did you see that headline?


----------



## Grace T.

This was funny......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481012759475240961


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Where did you see that headline?


I'll humor you for once.  Maybe you really have access issues: WAPO.

I'm sure they went back to the transcripts just to make sure there wasn't a sneaky period or comma that would have changed context.  But here it is.  She's obviously on twitter and a MSDNC consumer.


----------



## what-happened

Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’
					

Leading British and US scientists thought it was likely that Covid accidentally leaked from a laboratory but were concerned that further debate would harm science in China, emails show.




					www.yahoo.com
				




How could this be?  Q'anon must be back on the rise, secretly taking over.  Mabye JFK Jr. is coming back after all.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Biden: “We have 51 Presidents in the Senate”


Is he trying to let us know that each of the 48 D Senators, 2 I Senators who caucus with the D's, and Harris all have a hand "in" the sock puppet President?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I'll humor you for once.  Maybe you really have access issues: WAPO.
> 
> I'm sure they went back to the transcripts just to make sure there wasn't a sneaky period or comma that would have changed context.  But here it is.  She's obviously on twitter and a MSDNC consumer.
> 
> View attachment 12650


Where's the "100s of thousands of kids in the hospital" part?


----------



## Grace T.

The arrogance from Dr. Fauci never ceases to amaze me.  It may very well be that the Senator is a moron.  In fact, I quite readily would believe it based on the questions asked.  It may very well be that the question was stupid and the information is publicly available (though surprisingly we never get an answer where).  But this is conduct unbecoming a civil servant against one of our elected representatives who are entitled to ask stupid questions as part of their watch dog approach.  Again, not understanding the Biden politics of this all...why go off message and pivot to election reform and the fillibuster at a time when people are so focused on COVID and then let these two go off the way they did today without throwing them under the bus for what the public (rightfully or wrongfully) consider a covid policy misstep (or disaster, depending on how you want to characterize it based on your political leanings)?  I thought the Trump administration was bad at politics qua politics (the actual admin of political policy, managing legislation and elections and messaging it to the public) but this is just horrible horrible stuff.  The wheels are off the Biden admin.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The arrogance from Dr. Fauci never ceases to amaze me.  It may very well be that the Senator is a moron.  In fact, I quite readily would believe it based on the questions asked.  It may very well be that the question was stupid and the information is publicly available (though surprisingly we never get an answer where).  But this is conduct unbecoming a civil servant against one of our elected representatives who are entitled to ask stupid questions as part of their watch dog approach.  Again, not understanding the Biden politics of this all...why go off message and pivot to election reform and the fillibuster at a time when people are so focused on COVID and then let these two go off the way they did today without throwing them under the bus for what the public (rightfully or wrongfully) consider a covid policy misstep (or disaster, depending on how you want to characterize it based on your political leanings)?  I thought the Trump administration was bad at politics qua politics (the actual admin of political policy, managing legislation and elections and messaging it to the public) but this is just horrible horrible stuff.  The wheels are off the Biden admin.


The Senator in question repeatedly asked for Fauci's financial disclosure information, and Fauci answered each time that it is a public record, accessible to anyone.  At some point in that exchange, the Senator qualified as a moron.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This is California.  We don’t do honors classes for 6th grade.  We pretend everyone is equal.


This is really starting to get strange. I'm just glad my daughter is through it before we had to contend with this level of stupidity.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The Senator in question repeatedly asked for Fauci's financial disclosure information, and Fauci answered each time that it is a public record, accessible to anyone.  At some point in that exchange, the Senator qualified as a moron.


I told you I don't really care if he is or he isn't (quite frankly I'd readily believe based on his other questions he is....considering his staff wrote it up too and he's reading it that would make his staff, much like Sotamayor's clerks, idiots too for not prepping their boss properly).  The bigger question is why would he say it...it's conduct unbecoming for a civil servant....at a minimum the Biden admin should require him to apologize.


----------



## Grace T.

Hah!  It's a national thing apparently....supply chain collapse......welcome to the Soviet union people....if Biden thinks people care more about voting rights than this then he is completely off the reservation (and this affects people who don't have kids)....









						Empty grocery shelves return as sick employees, supply chain delays collide
					

Shares of major grocers fell on Tuesday, after Albertsons said omicron has compounded out-of-stocks.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’
> 
> 
> Leading British and US scientists thought it was likely that Covid accidentally leaked from a laboratory but were concerned that further debate would harm science in China, emails show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How could this be?  Q'anon must be back on the rise, secretly taking over.  Mabye JFK Jr. is coming back after all.


Where were the "real journalists" when this happened? Banned from Twitter no doubt.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Where's the "100s of thousands of kids in the hospital" part?


Ahh, I see..yes I inserted hospital where I should have inserted serious conditions.  Must have been Freudian slip.  I read conditions and subconsiously linked it to hospitals...i mean, the ventilator portion of the quote may have thrown me off.  Or maybe she knows people who have ventilators at home.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hah!  It's a national thing apparently....supply chain collapse......welcome to the Soviet union people....if Biden thinks people care more about voting rights than this then he is completely off the reservation (and this affects people who don't have kids)....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Empty grocery shelves return as sick employees, supply chain delays collide
> 
> 
> Shares of major grocers fell on Tuesday, after Albertsons said omicron has compounded out-of-stocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


I went to two stores today (Albertson's and Smart&Final).  The shelves were as full as they usually are.  The only thing I noticed that they were out of was covid rapid tests.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Ahh, I see..yes I inserted hospital where I should have inserted serious conditions.  Must have been Freudian slip.  I read conditions and subconsiously linked it to hospitals...i mean, the ventilator portion of the quote may have thrown me off.  Or maybe she knows people who have ventilators at home.


You also put an 's' on 100,  the "many on ventilators" part is true, and the American Academy of Pediatrics is the source for the 100,000 children sick with covid.





__





						Children and COVID-19: State-Level Data Report
					

The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Children’s Hospital Association are collaborating to collect and share all publicly available data from states on child COVID-19 cases.




					www.aap.org
				




It appears that in your zeal to criticize Justice Sotomayor by implying that she exaggerated the numbers you exaggerated what she actually said.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You also put an 's' on 100,  the "many on ventilators" part is true, and the American Academy of Pediatrics is the source for the 100,000 children sick with covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Children and COVID-19: State-Level Data Report
> 
> 
> The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Children’s Hospital Association are collaborating to collect and share all publicly available data from states on child COVID-19 cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aap.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that in your zeal to criticize Justice Sotomayor by implying that she exaggerated the numbers you exaggerated what she actually said.


good catch, and it was in my zeal.  someone like her should know better.  100,000 children are NOT in serious condition.  Even the AAP wouldn't  make a claim like that.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> good catch, and it was in my zeal.  someone like her should know better.  100,000 children are NOT in serious condition.  Even the AAP wouldn't  make a claim like that.


They did say this in the link you didn't read -- " There is an urgent need to collect more age-specific data to assess the severity of illness related to new variants as well as potential longer-term effects."


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I went to two stores today (Albertson's and Smart&Final).  The shelves were as full as they usually are.  The only thing I noticed that they were out of was covid rapid tests.


Anecdotally the only places I had heard of really empty shelves outside of the news was my bro in San Francisco, my uncle in Marin and friend in Washington DC, all of whom tweeted out pictures of the shelves.  Our suburb was pretty good until the last few days (some empty shelves but not alot) and the local paper editor sent out some tweets with a picture.  So my guess is this is a cascade as individual supply routes begin to collapse, the cities being hit before the suburbs before rural areas, but I don't really have anything to back that up other than a handful of newsstories.  I figure I'll have a better idea when I get to the Vallarta tomorrow.

The other possibility is its certain well to do areas heavy with Covidians are hoarding and hunkering down in which case that's another point in the mass hysteria checkbox (is the bottled water going too....we back to full March 2020 in these place???)   The other thing which lends weight to this theory is the freeways seem awfully light in Los Angeles right now....if I'm making practice in 20 minutes something is off.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> They did say this in the link you didn't read -- " There is an urgent need to collect more age-specific data to assess the severity of illness related to new variants as well as potential longer-term effects."


Yep, certainly agree with that statement.  Same same for vaccines and the kiddos.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The other possibility is its certain well to do areas heavy with Covidians are hoarding and hunkering down in which case that's another point in the mass hysteria checkbox (is the bottled water going too....we back to full March 2020 in these place???)   The other thing which lends weight to this theory is the freeways seem awfully light in Los Angeles right now....if I'm making practice in 20 minutes something is off.


Add another anecdote. Our local WF was less than well-stocked - not anywhere near empty but certain items were completely out - this weekend and had ridiculously long checkout lines. One of the workers indicated many are calling in sick. The store seemed unusually full but that happens when people are standing in line for over half an hour for checkout. Hard to tell if it is a supply issue or a hoarding issue.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Anecdotally the only places I had heard of really empty shelves outside of the news was my bro in San Francisco, my uncle in Marin and friend in Washington DC, all of whom tweeted out pictures of the shelves.  Our suburb was pretty good until the last few days (some empty shelves but not alot) and the local paper editor sent out some tweets with a picture.  So my guess is this is a cascade as individual supply routes begin to collapse, the cities being hit before the suburbs before rural areas, but I don't really have anything to back that up other than a handful of newsstories.  I figure I'll have a better idea when I get to the Vallarta tomorrow.
> 
> The other possibility is its certain well to do areas heavy with Covidians are hoarding and hunkering down in which case that's another point in the mass hysteria checkbox (is the bottled water going too....we back to full March 2020 in these place???)   The other thing which lends weight to this theory is the freeways seem awfully light in Los Angeles right now....if I'm making practice in 20 minutes something is off.


It's those damned covidians again (whoever they are).


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Anecdotally the only places I had heard of really empty shelves outside of the news was my bro in San Francisco, my uncle in Marin and friend in Washington DC, all of whom tweeted out pictures of the shelves.  Our suburb was pretty good until the last few days (some empty shelves but not alot) and the local paper editor sent out some tweets with a picture.  So my guess is this is a cascade as individual supply routes begin to collapse, the cities being hit before the suburbs before rural areas, but I don't really have anything to back that up other than a handful of newsstories.  I figure I'll have a better idea when I get to the Vallarta tomorrow.
> 
> The other possibility is its certain well to do areas heavy with Covidians are hoarding and hunkering down in which case that's another point in the mass hysteria checkbox (is the bottled water going too....we back to full March 2020 in these place???)   The other thing which lends weight to this theory is the freeways seem awfully light in Los Angeles right now....if I'm making practice in 20 minutes something is off.


I've noticed random things running low in stores and then they are fine and it moves to something else. About a month ago t-paper was low, couldn't get it in CostCo and low in grocery stores, then it was fine. Currently its organic milk for some reason.

Oh yeah, and Flamin hot Cheetos, which is really taking it too far IMO. Thank God they had Takis. Apart from that near disaster, all the stores are well stocked, so not sure where CNBC got their one photo from!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I told you I don't really care if he is or he isn't (quite frankly I'd readily believe based on his other questions he is....considering his staff wrote it up too and he's reading it that would make his staff, much like Sotamayor's clerks, idiots too for not prepping their boss properly).  The bigger question is why would he say it...it's conduct unbecoming for a civil servant....at a minimum the Biden admin should require him to apologize.


One can only take so much stupidity, especially from someone who knows better but is just playing up to the moron base.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

_*Ministry of Health, it’s time to admit failure*

In the end, the truth will always be revealed, and the truth about the coronavirus policy is beginning to be revealed. When the destructive concepts collapse one by one, there is nothing left but to tell the experts who led the management of the pandemic – we told you so.

*Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to fail. *You do not admit it, because you have admitted almost no mistake in the last two years, but in retrospect it is clear that you have failed miserably in almost all of your actions, and even the media is already having a hard time covering your shame.

*You refused to admit that the infection comes in waves that fade by themselves, despite years of observations and scientific knowledge. *You insisted on attributing every decline of a wave solely to your actions, and so through false propaganda “you overcame the plague.” And again you defeated it, and again and again and again.

*You refused to admit that mass testing is ineffective, despite your own contingency plans explicitly stating so (“Pandemic Influenza Health System Preparedness Plan, 2007,” p. 26).

You refused to admit that recovery is more protective than a vaccine, despite previous knowledge and observations showing that non-recovered vaccinated people are more likely to be infected than recovered people. *You refused to admit that the vaccinated are contagious despite the observations. Based on this, you hoped to achieve herd immunity by vaccination — and you failed in that as well.

*You insisted on ignoring the fact that the disease is dozens of times more dangerous for risk groups and older adults, than for young people who are not in risk groups, despite the knowledge that came from China as early as 2020.

You refused to adopt the “Great Barrington Declaration,” signed by more than 60,000 scientists and medical professionals, or other common-sense programs. *You chose to ridicule, slander, distort and discredit them. Instead of the right programs and people, you have chosen professionals who lack relevant training for pandemic management (physicists as chief government advisers, veterinarians, security officers, media personnel, and so on).

*You have not set up an effective system for reporting side effects from the vaccines and reports on side effects have even been deleted from your Facebook page.* Doctors avoid linking side effects to the vaccine, lest you persecute them as you did to some of their colleagues. You have ignored many reports of changes in menstrual intensity and menstrual cycle times. You hid data that allows for objective and proper research (for example, you removed the data on passengers at Ben Gurion Airport). Instead, you chose to publish non-objective articles together with senior Pfizer executives on the effectiveness and safety of vaccines.

*Irreversible damage to trust

However, from the heights of your hubris, you have also ignored the fact that in the end the truth will be revealed. And it begins to be revealed. The truth is that you have brought the public’s trust in you to an unprecedented low, and you have eroded your status as a source of authority. *The truth is that you have burned hundreds of billions of shekels to no avail – for publishing intimidation, for ineffective tests, for destructive lockdowns and for disrupting the routine of life in the last two years.

You have destroyed the education of our children and their future. You made children feel guilty, scared, smoke, drink, get addicted, drop out, and quarrel, as school principals around the country attest. You have harmed livelihoods, the economy, human rights, mental health and physical health.

*You slandered colleagues who did not surrender to you, you turned the people against each other, divided society and polarized the discourse.* You branded, without any scientific basis, people who chose not to get vaccinated as enemies of the public and as spreaders of disease. You promote, in an unprecedented way, a draconian policy of discrimination, denial of rights and selection of people, including children, for their medical choice. A selection that lacks any epidemiological justification.

*When you compare the destructive policies you are pursuing with the sane policies of some other countries — you can clearly see that the destruction you have caused has only added victims beyond the vulnerable to the virus. *The economy you ruined, the unemployed you caused, and the children whose education you destroyed — are the surplus victims as a result of your own actions only.

*There is currently no medical emergency, but you have been cultivating such a condition for two years now because of lust for power, budgets and control. *The only emergency now is that you still set policies and hold huge budgets for propaganda and consciousness engineering instead of directing them to strengthen the health care system.

This emergency must stop!_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> One can only take so much stupidity, especially from someone who knows better but is just playing up to the moron base.


Yes we know.  Please continue.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> I've noticed random things running low in stores and then they are fine and it moves to something else. About a month ago t-paper was low, couldn't get it in CostCo and low in grocery stores, then it was fine. Currently its organic milk for some reason.
> 
> Oh yeah, and Flamin hot Cheetos, which is really taking it too far IMO. Thank God they had Takis. Apart from that near disaster, all the stores are well stocked, so not sure where CNBC got their one photo from!


We are getting things on a delayed basis. Most of the Octoberfest products came in November.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> They did say this in the link you didn't read -- " There is an urgent need to collect more age-specific data to assess the severity of illness related to new variants as well as potential longer-term effects."


Sucker


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> We are getting things on a delayed basis. Most of the Octoberfest products came in November.


Like father,  like son.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> And 2 yrs into this....who has been proven right as to what would happen? Team covid or *team reality?*
> As we are seeing day by day* reality is setting i*n and we are moving every closer to where team reality said we would have to end up.
> Models do not work when one discounts real world data and does not take into account how people will act.
> This is why we do not let math types set policy.
> You are like *Baghdad Bob *at this point.


Team Reality is on fire and won a long time ago.  The Jacovid Witnesses are so wasted on Kool Aid they can't reason even with logic.  Too many injections, moo!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Add another anecdote. Our local WF was less than well-stocked - not anywhere near empty but certain items were completely out - this weekend and had ridiculously long checkout lines. One of the workers indicated many are calling in sick. The store seemed unusually full but that happens when people are standing in line for over half an hour for checkout. Hard to tell if it is a supply issue or a hoarding issue.


The “Covid concern” in retail is gone and many are sick as a result. They use to send people home who had been exposed, not anymore, they can’t. Skeleton crews.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's those damned covidians again (whoever they are).


If you rushed out and bought bottled water in 2020 and are now rushing out to buy it again, you might just be a Covidian.
If you say things like "I trust the science" or "I trust the experts", you might just be a Covidian.
If you said we should listen to the experts and trust them, and tut tutted people who bought masks at first, but then rushed out to buy a mask when the experts changed their mind, you might just be a Covidian.
If you have a picture of Fauci in your house or on your SM feed, or have fawned over his documentary or articles, or think he's as great as a patron saint, you might just be a Covidian.
If you think the people you agree with are experts, and you call the experts you disagree with "quacks", you might just be a Covidian.
If you believed the lab leak could only be a conspiracy theory, you might just be a Covidian.
If you found yourself longing to have moved to Australia or New Zealand, you might just be a Covidian.
If you thought lockdowns were necessary, including of churches, but then thought the BLM marches were o.k., you might just be a Covidian.
If you mistrusted the Trump vaccine, but then supported vaccine mandates when Biden won, you might just be a Covidian.
If you thought things could get back to normal just because Biden won and "would shut down the virus but not the economy", you might just be a Covidian.
If you never considered natural immunity might just be a thing, you might just be a Covidian.
If you are fully vaxxed and not immunocompromised but think it is necessary to wear N95s to the store, you might just be a Covidian.
If you rationalized that the schools should be closed because too many kids could die, then too many kids would wind up in the hospital, then too many kids would get MISC, then too may kids would get long COVID, you might just be a Covidian.
If you supported the travel bans, but then thought what's happening along the southern border is just fine and dandy, you might just be a Covidian.
If you and your family are fully vaxxed, and no one in your household is immunocompromised, but you are restricting your kids social life, you might just be a Covidian.
If you think the schools should be closed, but have no problem going to a bar or restaurant, you might just be a Covidian.
If you sneered at Florida for being stupid, but then thought what was happening in the blue states was uncontrollable, you might just be a Covidian.
If you felt it was o.k. to send out blue collar workers to prepare your take out, or marijuana and liquor, or fix your plumbing, while you worked in your pajamas, then you might just be a Covidian.
If you aren't immunocompromised and are just counting down the days until you can get your fourth booster, you might just be a Covidian.
If you still think cloth masks do anything, or masking of children in schools does anything, you might just be a Covidian.
If you find yourself sneering at red staters for returning life to normal, or for "killing grandma" or for "being selfish", but secretly long to be one of them, you might just be a Covidian (bonus points if you went out and partied in a red state).
If you yelled for lockdowns, including shutting schools, and then went on vacation, you might just be a Covidian.
If you thought things should get back to normal once the elderly vaxxed, then everyone, then teenagers, then kids, and are waiting now for the under five set to be vaxxed, you might just be a Covidian.
If you are hoarding at home rapid tests, or voluntarily getting tested on a semi regular basis and aren't around someone immunocompromised, you might just be a Covidian.
If you are still saying the omicron wave is the fault of the unvaccinated, or that this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, you might just be a Covidian.
If you called the claim about artificially high hospitalization and death numbers a conspiracy theory, and still are unwilling to acknowledge you were wrong, you might just be a Covidian.
If you post pictures about antivaxxers that have died, and said they deserved it, you might just be a Covidian.
If you've said "kids are resilent" and don't think we've done and are doing profound long lasting damage to them, you might just be a Covidian.
If you still think we can get to zero Covid, you might just be a Covidian.
If you take enormous satisfaction at "doing everything right" with your masks, distancing and vaccines, and then find yourself upset at others when you come down with Covid, you might just not only be a Covidian, but you are also most definitely an asshole.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> o.k.  I'm really scratching my head here.  The newest push out of the Biden admin is to eliminate the fillibuster (or at least exempt it for this one case) prior to moving through the voting rights act (which already Manchin and Sinema have said they won't do, and several others are on the fence about).  Meanwhile, the CDC director is under fire, Fauci is doing his usual combat against the Rs, the Chicago teachers union and several other areas are pushing no school (or no sports), the store shelves in blue cities are running anywhere from Soviet to somewhat bare, inflation is running high, and everyone is getting sick with COVID (despite some people having "done everything right" and triple vaxxed).  I really don't get it.  Biden campaigned as a moderate who would restore sanity after Trump, but this is some hard core lefty to stuff, and not just hard core lefty stuff (which I'm not opining as to individual policies whether they make sense or don't) but stuff which people don't even really care about now (since a large group of people including some Ds and a lot of independents are really really really really very upset about the wheels coming off on COVID policy which now seems to be everyone is going to get it but let's push it off (for some undisclosed reason) as much as possible).  This just isn't good politics so I'm wondering what the intent is....even if it passes the midterms are off the table so the only thing I can conclude is that it's just a long term power grab for 2024 and beyond and they've concluded their chances are so bad that they figure they need to do this (and take the political hit for appearing to be off message with people's real concerns) now or lose their opportunity forever (considering it's a hail mary anyway to begin with!!!).  That power grab would have to be so great that it would relegate the Republican party into the wilderness for a generation (since as soon as you get an R president and congress they'll just nuke the fillibuster and undo it all).  Mark it in your calendar people: today is the day the wheels came off the Biden admin.


What is the motive to do this to other humans?  Jealousy?  Greed?  Selfishness?  Pride?  The Father of Fraud talked way too much today Grace T and I'm so glad to witness liars in front of the live camera.  He called Dr. Paul a "Moron" and put down JC.  The guilty talk way too much.  Burr was smiling as he handed out oranges and asked softball questions.  I know what they intended to do all along and we caught them all, all red handed withy emails, text and phone calls and just listeneing to you talk int he car.  Your phone is a "bug," FYI everyone.  They know it all.  ALL OF IT!!!!  Cheaters & liars!!! What shocks me the most was how easy it was to buy people off with a few bribes ((good job and good pay)) and some gnarly ass blackmail to keep the "pay to play" alive.  It's obvious.  I was not thinking people I respected in so many fields would sell out their neighbors and fellow Americans for some extra coins in the stash and the chance to be "top snob" and all cool with the goods and money.  It hurts like hell to see people try and tell me to "just do it, get the jab so you can get a job bro" and it's "your fault were not back to normal." or, "you got me sick." It hurts me so much.  I cry and that is no joke.  I play Martyr and for good reason fellas.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> One can only take so much stupidity, especially from someone who knows better but is just playing up to the moron base.


I object to: 
1. one can only take so much stupidity....civil servant....his job.  If a treasure secretary had said that to Bernie under Trump, or a general to an antiwar senator during the Iraq war, there would be hell to pay.
2. "some who knows better"....I actually doubt that.  He's either a moron or he isn't and you can't have it both ways.  Under your interpret not only did Fauci say it, but he also said something that he knew was false.
3. "playing up to the moron base"....your partisanship is showing.  The Rs have been right on Covid....as Virginia shows the public is turning on the Ds....team Panic is morally and intellectually bankrupt and Fauci's list of errors grows increasingly long.  He couldn't have done a worse job had he set out to do it, and being one of the Trump slayers is only going to carry him so far in the public eye.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> One can only take so much stupidity, especially from someone who knows better but is just playing up to the moron base.


Now you are getting it.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> The “Covid concern” in retail is gone and many are sick as a result. They use to send people home who had been exposed, not anymore, they can’t. Skeleton crews.


That's what happens when vaccines don't stop transmission.  And when people are let go for refusing a vaccine that would have sent them home anyway.  Self licking ice cream cone.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> If you rushed out and bought bottled water in 2020 and are now rushing out to buy it again, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you say things like "I trust the science" or "I trust the experts", you might just be a Covidian.
> If you said we should listen to the experts and trust them, and tut tutted people who bought masks at first, but then rushed out to buy a mask when the experts changed their mind, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you have a picture of Fauci in your house or on your SM feed, or have fawned over his documentary or articles, or think he's as great as a patron saint, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you think the people you agree with are experts, and you call the experts you disagree with "quacks", you might just be a Covidian.
> If you believed the lab leak could only be a conspiracy theory, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you found yourself longing to have moved to Australia or New Zealand, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you thought lockdowns were necessary, including of churches, but then thought the BLM marches were o.k., you might just be a Covidian.
> If you mistrusted the Trump vaccine, but then supported vaccine mandates when Biden won, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you thought things could get back to normal just because Biden won and "would shut down the virus but not the economy", you might just be a Covidian.
> If you never considered natural immunity might just be a thing, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you are fully vaxxed and not immunocompromised but think it is necessary to wear N95s to the store, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you rationalized that the schools should be closed because too many kids could die, then too many kids would wind up in the hospital, then too many kids would get MISC, then too may kids would get long COVID, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you supported the travel bans, but then thought what's happening along the southern border is just fine and dandy, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you and your family are fully vaxxed, and no one in your household is immunocompromised, but you are restricting your kids social life, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you think the schools should be closed, but have no problem going to a bar or restaurant, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you sneered at Florida for being stupid, but then thought what was happening in the blue states was uncontrollable, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you felt it was o.k. to send out blue collar workers to prepare your take out, or marijuana and liquor, or fix your plumbing, while you worked in your pajamas, then you might just be a Covidian.
> If you aren't immunocompromised and are just counting down the days until you can get your fourth booster, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you still think cloth masks do anything, or masking of children in schools does anything, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you find yourself sneering at red staters for returning life to normal, or for "killing grandma" or for "being selfish", but secretly long to be one of them, you might just be a Covidian (bonus points if you went out and partied in a red state).
> If you yelled for lockdowns, including shutting schools, and then went on vacation, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you thought things should get back to normal once the elderly vaxxed, then everyone, then teenagers, then kids, and are waiting now for the under five set to be vaxxed, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you are hoarding at home rapid tests, or voluntarily getting tested on a semi regular basis and aren't around someone immunocompromised, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you are still saying the omicron wave is the fault of the unvaccinated, or that this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you called the claim about artificially high hospitalization and death numbers a conspiracy theory, and still are unwilling to acknowledge you were wrong, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you post pictures about antivaxxers that have died, and said they deserved it, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you've said "kids are resilent" and don't think we've done and are doing profound long lasting damage to them, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you still think we can get to zero Covid, you might just be a Covidian.
> If you take enormous satisfaction at "doing everything right" with your masks, distancing and vaccines, and then find yourself upset at others when you come down with Covid, you might just not only be a Covidian, but you are also most definitely an asshole.


You seem to have a lot of issues.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Yu seem to ha v4e a lot of issues.


Oh Magoo....love the comedy.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Imagine someone who for the past 2 yrs was sure his ideas would work.
> 
> - close bars/restaurants
> - close a variety of other biz
> - close schools
> - close outdoor sports
> - limit travel
> - was for silly stuff like testing teams before tournaments at a cost of at the time of more than 1k or so at the time
> - wanted people not to visit other people
> - as he was looking at his models never took into account human nature and the real world
> - was sure the realists who said we are going to have to live with this were wrong.
> - etc. etc.
> 
> And 2 yrs into this....who has been proven right as to what would happen? Team covid or team reality?
> 
> As we are seeing day by day reality is setting in and we are moving every closer to where team reality said we would have to end up.
> 
> Models do not work when one discounts real world data and does not take into account how people will act.
> 
> This is why we do not let math types set policy.
> 
> You are like Baghdad Bob at this point.


Yep all that in an attempt to avoid flu symptoms (or less) for a few days for 98% of the population. F'ing brilliant.


----------



## watfly

Weird, in Montana you can't get Covid if your sitting down.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Weird, in Montana you can't get Covid if your sitting down.View attachment 12653


The real version is that indoor restaurants spread covid.  No indoor seating during covid.  Please order your sandwich to go at the counter, and eat it outside.

Would you like that sign any better?

Seems to me that you are complaining about the loophole you requested.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> No indoor seating *during covid. * Please order your sandwich to go at the counter, and eat it outside.
> 
> Would you like that sign any better?


What does “during covid” mean?

I’m serious, what conditions equate to “not during covid”?

R < 1?
Death rate per million below X?
After Y has been developed that makes R < 1?
Average BMI is reduced to Z?

When covid is endemic? And by what definition of endemic? Because some of those definitions are likely many years away…


----------



## Ellejustus

I woke from a dream with Farmer Fran telling me I "you will live to play another day."  I am so stoked to get this dream last night.


----------



## Ellejustus

Just wait until we ALL find out the "bonus pay" going on right now and all the kickbacks and back room deals in this heist of our lives through "pay to play."  We were all born into this rat race of cheating.  Worse part, these thieves stole two years of our kids life.  Losers will NOT be able to walk down the street.......


----------



## Ellejustus

How to make money in this shit.  

Step 1 Give out Free test and then get paid triple pay 
Step 2- Diagnosed Corvid= more $$$$ to line your greedy pockets.  
Step 3- Get admitted "with" Covid= 3x bonus to line all your pockets with coins
Step 4- Get put on their drug of choice=more kickbacks
Step 5-Big bonus if your put on a venerator
Step 6- 20% bonus if you have "Covid" on death cert.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> What does “during covid” mean?
> 
> I’m serious, what conditions equate to “not during covid”?
> 
> R < 1?
> Death rate per million below X?
> After Y has been developed that makes R < 1?
> Average BMI is reduced to Z?
> 
> When covid is endemic? And by what definition of endemic? Because some of those definitions are likely many years away…


The point is not the details on the definition of “during covid”.  Your “deaths per million above X” definition works just fine.

The point is, if they actually set the restaurant rules based on where covid spreads, indoor dining would be closed and people on this board would hate it.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Let Freedom Reign!*​
Listen to this 25 year Vet on the front line as a nurse.  This is what experience does for honest people.  No fear at all.  Plus, she has to cover shifts for those WHO have been Triple Jabbed.  However, she will get fired in April.  This is where my brain gets all scrambled and confused.  Today, like right now, she can cover for a triple jabbed nurse WHO is at home with the sniffles and can't come to work.  This nurse is covering her shift but in April, she fired!!!  This is so whacked out you guys.  Thanks for nothing and this makes more sense as each day goes by.  It's happening in our country as well and we just shut up and take orders and roll sleeve up for as many shots as they say.  @watfly and @kickingandscreaming you two still going for unlimited shots as long as Doc says so?  Honest question and I love you both and you can PM me your answers.  I love you both deeply  









						Nigel Farage questions unvaccinated nurse over NHS mandate
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


Just say no!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The real version is that indoor restaurants spread covid.  No indoor seating during covid.  Please order your sandwich to go at the counter, and eat it outside.
> 
> Would you like that sign any better?
> 
> Seems to me that you are complaining about the loophole you requested.


First off, that sign isnt for a restaurant its for a hotel lobby.  Second, restaurants dont spread Covid.  Infected people spread Covid.  Third, Im not complaining at all I just found the sign curious.

Is it your position that people shouldnt vacation during Covid?


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12656


Why don’t we hear about the old variants?

For most practical purposes, they are gone.  It’s a dog eat dog world out there for viruses.  You don’t hear about Alpha or Beta anymore because Alpha and Beta lost.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Would you like that sign any better?


Nope. Time to move on and live life. 

Covid is endemic.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> *Let Freedom Reign!*​
> Listen to this 25 year Vet on the front line as a nurse.  This is what experience does for honest people.  No fear at all.  Plus, she has to cover shifts for those WHO have been Triple Jabbed.  However, she will get fired in April.  This is where my brain gets all scrambled and confused.  Today, like right now, she can cover for a triple jabbed nurse WHO is at home with the sniffles and can't come to work.  This nurse is covering her shift but in April, she fired!!!  This is so whacked out you guys.  Thanks for nothing and this makes more sense as each day goes by.  It's happening in our country as well and we just shut up and take orders and roll sleeve up for as many shots as they say.  @watfly and @kickingandscreaming you two still going for unlimited shots as long as Doc says so?  Honest question and I love you both and you can PM me your answers.  I love you both deeply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nigel Farage questions unvaccinated nurse over NHS mandate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


Hey @crush, I think I am done with anything more than once a year, like my flu shot. I am still working on losing a few more pounds and increasing my aerobic activity a little bit more. My eating habits are where I want them now - maybe just a bit less volume. I'm in a better spot than I was this summer but still not quite where I want to be. I'm also focusing more on getting out and enjoying each day and less on watching case counts go up and down. Two years of that are enough .

I'm guessing that vaccine mandates will fade away. How many black people can the D's afford to disenfranchise?











						US Coronavirus vaccine tracker
					

Each state has a different plan — and different challenges — in distributing vaccines. Learn more about who is getting vaccinated by parsing the data by age, sex and race.




					usafacts.org


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> First off, that sign isnt for a restaurant its for a hotel lobby.  Second, restaurants dont spread Covid.  Infected people spread Covid.  Third, Im not complaining at all I just found the sign curious.
> 
> Is it your position that people shouldnt vacation during Covid?


its kind of like where the airlines are now:  you pretty much can go maskless if you are constantly drinking putting on your mask only for take off and landing and going to the bathroom. I don’t think though he thinks we should be flying anywhere, particularly young children.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> The point is not the details on the definition of “during covid”.  Your “deaths per million above X” definition works just fine.
> 
> The point is, if they actually set the restaurant rules based on where covid spreads, indoor dining would be closed and people on this board would hate it.


Thanks for giving a response, not exactly what I asked, but you did clarify your point in a prior post.

You’re right, many on this board (actually, the vast majority of society) would hate your definition.

Since you won’t articulate it without further prompting…

Solve for X, you don’t have to provide a proof or show your work.  I’ll even take a range.

“not during covid” = Deaths per million below X

X is < ?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Why don’t we hear about the old variants?
> 
> For most practical purposes, they are gone.  It’s a dog eat dog world out there for viruses.  You don’t hear about Alpha or Beta anymore because Alpha and Beta lost.


Then please explain to me why were mandating boosters that were designed for the original strain that is no longer circulating?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> First off, that sign isnt for a restaurant its for a hotel lobby.  Second, restaurants dont spread Covid.  Infected people spread Covid.  Third, Im not complaining at all I just found the sign curious.
> 
> Is it your position that people shouldnt vacation during Covid?


I am in favor of adult vaccine passports and mask requirements.

If you aren’t vaccinated, you should not be in high risk areas.  So, a vacation to Vegas is inappropriate.  A vacation to Joshua Tree is just fine.  

I’m guessing it will be moot in four weeks or so anyway.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Thanks for giving a response, not exactly what I asked, but you did clarify your point in a prior post.
> 
> You’re right, many on this board (actually, the vast majority of society) would hate your definition.
> 
> Since you won’t articulate it without further prompting…
> 
> Solve for X, you don’t have to provide a proof or show your work.  I’ll even take a range.
> 
> “not during covid” = Deaths per million below X
> 
> X is < ?


0.1 < X < 1.0


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hey @crush, I think I am done with anything more than once a year, like my flu shot. I am still working on losing a few more pounds and increasing my aerobic activity a little bit more. My eating habits are where I want them now - maybe just a bit less volume. I'm in a better spot than I was this summer but still not quite where I want to be. I'm also focusing more on getting out and enjoying each day and less on watching case counts go up and down. Two years of that are enough .
> 
> I'm guessing that vaccine mandates will fade away. How many black people can the D's afford to disenfranchise?
> 
> View attachment 12661
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Coronavirus vaccine tracker
> 
> 
> Each state has a different plan — and different challenges — in distributing vaccines. Learn more about who is getting vaccinated by parsing the data by age, sex and race.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usafacts.org


Now that is TRUTH speak and why I love you brother.  We are ALL making the Light shine and for that, I so happy   BTW, Dr. Fraud said we had $900,000 people die from Covid.  However, Dr. W said of those $900,000 deaths, 75% had 4, yes four and I mean for, underlying health issues when they died.  I bet they went to ER because of one of the four, that's just a guess though.  Dude, they took the money and turn their cheek on us, their fellow neighbor all for $$$$$.  How sad.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Then please explain to me why were mandating boosters that were designed for the original strain that is no longer circulating?


Because the antibodies for strain A are partially effective against strain B.

Would an Omicron Booster be better?  Sure.  But no one has one yet.


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Then please *explain to me why were mandating boosters *that were designed for the original strain that is no longer circulating?


Honest question and please bite.  Why is US Soccer mandating 13 & 14 year old's to get "fully Jabbed" in order to make The List?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Thin


N00B said:


> Thanks for giving a response, not exactly what I asked, but you did clarify your point in a prior post.
> 
> You’re right, many on this board (actually, the vast majority of society) would hate your definition.
> 
> Since you won’t articulate it without further prompting…
> 
> Solve for X, you don’t have to provide a proof or show your work.  I’ll even take a range.
> 
> “not during covid” = Deaths per million below X
> 
> X is < ?


Think he could also provide the “R” value for the Flu in 2018 and 2019, including Asymptotic cases and cases that were mild?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Ellejustus said:


> Honest question and please bite.  Why is US Soccer mandating 13 & 14 year old's to get "fully Jabbed" in order to make The List?


First, it’s not to “make the list”, that is where talent, work ethic and soccer IQ are the parameters.  The requirements it is to attend the camp they r been selected for. 

I don’t have the answer as to why they require it, my DD didn’t ask but had already made the decision she wanted to be “vaccinated” so it was a non issue.  

An educated guess would be that they won’t differ from Federal Guidance.  It has the same logic as the reasoning behind needing one to enter a restaurant in LA, no matter how stupid I feel it is or what the science actually says.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Honest question and please bite.  Why is US Soccer mandating 13 & 14 year old's to get "fully Jabbed" in order to make The List?


When there are international matches, will other countries grant entry visas to unvaccinated 14 year olds?

If the answer is no, then US soccer may not have much choice.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Because the antibodies for strain A are partially effective against strain B.
> 
> Would an Omicron Booster be better?  Sure.  But no one has one yet.


So why mandate it?  Hasn’t slowed Omicron or Delta.  The 1st 2 shots, OK.  But boosters?  Now we are just needlessly straining the immune system.


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Thin
> 
> Think he could also provide the “R” value for the Flu in 2018 and 2019, including Asymptotic cases and cases that were mild?


Like I said many times before, this is the flu and we all got played because of the almighty $$$$$.  Nothing new under the sun on the planet and we all know it when we lay down to sleep at night, what the real TRUTH is.  The next phase in this heist will be healing.  We ALL need a break from this rat wheel of a life we were born into, to make a buck and work for the man.  2.0, trust me on this.  Money is shifting hands and the bad guys won;t have any more to print to hand out to their friends who obey orders.  Nope, were all getting a UBI and then based on our humanity work, rewards through tokens of appreciation will be handed out.  The more you help others and tell the TRUTH, the more tokens you will get.  Money will not be used as a tool to get what you want anymore.  Watch & just watch and see how this thing we call life will get fun for some, some will catch on and join the fun while others will hate the new way to make $$$$$.  @kickingandscreaming , so just flu shot now and I have to ask you honest Q.  I bet you wouldn't have taken the first shot if you know what you know two years later?


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> When there are international matches, will other countries grant entry visas to unvaccinated 14 year olds?
> 
> If the answer is no, then US soccer may not have much choice.


Not a good reason to get jabbed.  That's like saying, "if you want to work her, get jabbed and wear a double mask or your fired."


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> First, it’s not to “make the list”, that is where talent, work ethic and soccer IQ are the parameters.  The requirements it is to attend the camp they r been selected for.
> 
> I don’t have the answer as to why they require it, my DD didn’t ask but had already made the decision she wanted to be “vaccinated” so it was a non issue.
> 
> An educated guess would be that they won’t differ from Federal Guidance.  It has the same logic as the reasoning behind needing one to enter a restaurant in LA, no matter how stupid I feel it is or what the science actually says.


Thanks for answering my curiosity.  It is 100% BS to force and co-horse a young, hungry teenager and determined 13 year female to make that kind of decision, moo.  YNT Camp and Jabs or no invite, regardless of hard work.   Players worked so hard to makes this list and to add that kind of pressure is insane and wrong and I bet some day many will say sorry. If parents take their 13 year old to get "fully Jabbed" then that's their choice as a parent.  No 13 year is making that decision.  They can't and they shouldn't be.  It's so sad.  ECNL doesnt force this on the players.  My HHS team is not. Why is US Soccer mandating this for 13 year old?  Wowza.  I know it's far fetch for me to even dream what I would do as a parent if my dd made the list 5 years ago.  I can say 100% she had the work ethic, IQ and talent to be considered at least and was knocking on the door.  I would say, "sorry honey, not enough information for me to sign off on this, even though you worked your ass off for the last 18 months winning the US National Championship."  2.0, I am not a moron so stop with the BS on the hard work part.  No one makes The List without the hard work bro.  Come on, man....lol.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So why mandate it? Hasn’t slowed Omicron or Delta. The 1st 2 shots, OK. But boosters? Now we are just needlessly straining the immune system.


This is the problem they cannot really answer. 

Omicrom infects everyone regardless of vaxx status. The vaxxed spread O all day long.

If you don't want to get vaxxed it doesn't affect what is happening to the vaxxed.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So why mandate it?  Hasn’t slowed Omicron or Delta.  The 1st 2 shots, OK.  But boosters?  Now we are just needlessly straining the immune system.


Take a look at EvilGoalie’s chart.  The protection 20 weeks after the 3rd shot is a lot better than the protection 20 weeks after the second.  You’re getting benefit from your booster, if you got one.

I‘m more concerned about vaccine requirements for high level male sports.   Requiring me to get a vaccine and a booster is fine.   But cardiac problems are a serious and different issue for elite male athletes.  I’d want to see the numbers for that subgroup broken out before lumping them in with the rest of us.


----------



## Desert Hound

Another parent who bowed to reality...and earlier than many in her area.









						Opinion | How School Closures Made Me Question My Progressive Politics
					

I’ve never felt more alienated from the liberal Democratic circles I usually call home.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Take a look at EvilGoalie’s chart.  The protection 20 weeks after the 3rd shot is a lot better than the protection 20 weeks after the second.  You’re getting benefit from your booster, if you got one.
> 
> I‘m more concerned about vaccine requirements for high level male sports.   Requiring me to get a vaccine and a booster is fine.   But cardiac problems are a serious and different issue for elite male athletes.  I’d want to see the numbers for that subgroup broken out before lumping them in with the rest of us.


I don't post death videos because Golden Gate uses deaths to make his points hold water.  I just saw another high level soccer player fall to the ground and shake a like fish on the boat.  In all my years of playing soccer and watching world cup games, I have never seen so many studs retire and quit or die from cardiac arrest.  We need to look into this for sure.  This can;t be the new normal.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The point is not the details on the definition of “during covid”.  Your “deaths per million above X” definition works just fine.
> 
> The point is, if they actually set the restaurant rules based on where covid spreads, indoor dining would be closed and people on this board would hate it.


Why should we close indoor dining now?  Who are we protecting?


----------



## Desert Hound

It Is Time to Face Reality about the Vaccines ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Conclusion: you cannot contain the viral spread of omicron by boosting.




					brownstone.org


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> It Is Time to Face Reality about the Vaccines ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> Conclusion: you cannot contain the viral spread of omicron by boosting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


Hound, because this has never been done before, the real TRUTH will not come until time has shown it's hand.  Now their saying too many boosters can harm your immune system.  Let that sink in.  However, if your not fully jabbed, you're fired, can;t travel, can;t go to school, can't play as 13 year old for US Soccer!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Take a look at EvilGoalie’s chart.  The protection 20 weeks after the 3rd shot is a lot better than the protection 20 weeks after the second.  You’re getting benefit from your booster, if you got one.
> 
> I‘m more concerned about vaccine requirements for high level male sports.   Requiring me to get a vaccine and a booster is fine.   But cardiac problems are a serious and different issue for elite male athletes.  I’d want to see the numbers for that subgroup broken out before lumping them in with the rest of us.


The numbers though are declining even after week 10. The only benefit from a booster you are getting if under 60 is just pushing back when you will get it…you’ll still get it and plenty of triple vaxxed people getting it. The benefit over sixty is there is still a moderate-significant decline in severity of symptoms. We should be boosting the elderly. Want to make it mandatory?  That’s where the bang is for your buck. Boosting teenagers isn’t doing very much


----------



## Desert Hound

_All of these developments have led people like Cory Zue, a Democrat blogger who explained why he did not get the COVID shot, to wonder: “So now we have an impossible-to-stop virus that looks a lot like the common cold. And we have a heavy-handed global mitigation strategy based on vaccination that does very little to stop it. Surely, I thought, we will now see that these policies, and especially vaccine mandates, do not make any logical sense? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

It’s a question that many are thinking but far too few are asking._









						We Can't Stop The Spread Of Omicron, So Stop Trying To Mandate It
					

It's past time for a return to normal since vaccine and mask mandates clearly don't stop the spread of COVID-19 or new variants like omicron.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> *Boosting teenagers isn’t doing very much*


I don't know about that.  It all depends on who wears the pants in the family.  I know a guy whose wife wears the pants and whatever she say's is the rules in the house.  I swear this is their domain and it works for them.  Basically, she made him, his mother and all her family get the jab.  She's a nurse.  However, after she got more information, she will not allow her children to get jabbed and will never allow it.  They have a new school that the kids will be going to in the Fall.  She went from, "get the jab or else" to "No jabs for my kids."  Total 180 degree turn.  I love it!!!


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Why should we close indoor dining now?  Who are we protecting?


I don’t think we need to close all indoor dining.  A vaccine requirement is appropriate, though.

Why now?  We are running out of hospital staff.
To protect whom?  The 1500 people dying of covid each day.

You make it sound like you think it’s all over.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> It Is Time to Face Reality about the Vaccines ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> Conclusion: you cannot contain the viral spread of omicron by boosting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


The Brownstone Institute, by the declaration posted on its own website, was founded for the express purpose of publishing opinion articles such as this.









						About Brownstone Institute ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Brownstone Institute celebrates freedom as the path to progress, trustworthy public health, a vibrant culture, and economic prosperity




					brownstone.org


----------



## NorCalDad

espola said:


> I went to two stores today (Albertson's and Smart&Final).  The shelves were as full as they usually are.  The only thing I noticed that they were out of was covid rapid tests.


Same in our neck of the woods.  Went to HS games today and yesterday.  Nobody here is in panic mode.  Futsal (indoors) starts this weekend.  My kids are in school in person.  We have home test kits available at our local stores.  Even the bike parts I want to order are available on Amazon.  Life is pretty good.  I guess it could be a wee bit warmer.  Best of luck to y'all.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Because the antibodies for strain A are partially effective against strain B.
> 
> Would an Omicron Booster be better?  Sure.  But no one has one yet.


I think you are just stoking the fire here.  You seem to be an intelligent person.  Medicine isn't linear.  Who should we boost? And why?  

How many healthy 5-17 year olds have died in places like Germany, who did a great job of getting data.  Here's to the hope that the great medical and science charade in history is finally starting to pass by.  Besides, how many c-virus vacines have there ever been? 

Time to tighten up your N95 and get on with life.


----------



## NorCalDad

Hey, here you go:









						Cannabis Compounds Prevented Covid Infection in Laboratory Study
					

Cannabis compounds prevented the virus that causes Covid-19 from penetrating healthy human cells, according to a laboratory study published in the Journal of Nature Products.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Grace T.

on the science death spiral, and why it's so hard for people like dad 4 to actually do science, and boosting the young


----------



## Grace T.

Shortages, inflation hits 7 percent, shortages in testing, and everyone getting it.  Meanwhile Biden is focused on voting rights and the filibuster.  I thought the Trump admin was bad about politics qua politics, but man this is outright political malpractice.





__





						Why Grocery Store Shelves Are Bare. Again.
					





					www.msn.com
				












						Inflation surges 7% in December, highest rate in 40 years
					

Inflation rose at the fastest pace in nearly four decades in December, as rapid price gains fueled consumer fears about the economy and sent President Biden's approval rating tumbling.




					www.foxbusiness.com
				












						Surging prices: Key inflation measure hits a 39-year high | CNN Business
					

Pandemic price hikes didn't let up in the last month of 2021: A key inflation gauge hit a fresh a 39-year high.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Hey, here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannabis Compounds Prevented Covid Infection in Laboratory Study
> 
> 
> Cannabis compounds prevented the virus that causes Covid-19 from penetrating healthy human cells, according to a laboratory study published in the Journal of Nature Products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


Maybe the CBD I have been using on my lower back and shoulder is the reason everyone around me has been positive and I have skated by? Hell yeah! CBD me!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Shortages, inflation hits 7 percent, shortages in testing, and everyone getting it.  Meanwhile Biden is focused on voting rights and the filibuster.  I thought the Trump admin was bad about politics qua politics, but man this is outright political malpractice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Grocery Store Shelves Are Bare. Again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inflation surges 7% in December, highest rate in 40 years
> 
> 
> Inflation rose at the fastest pace in nearly four decades in December, as rapid price gains fueled consumer fears about the economy and sent President Biden's approval rating tumbling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surging prices: Key inflation measure hits a 39-year high | CNN Business
> 
> 
> Pandemic price hikes didn't let up in the last month of 2021: A key inflation gauge hit a fresh a 39-year high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


The shortages are caused by people staying home sick with Omicron.

You can’t be against every single viral containment measure and then complain that the sick people aren’t there to stock the shelves for you.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The shortages are caused by people staying home sick with Omicron.
> 
> You can’t be against every single viral containment measure and then complain that the sick people aren’t there to stock the shelves for you.


Not complaining.  I'm speaking as to the politics of it all (unlike you, I think we'd have the same result even with containment measures).  Malpractice to be focused in on voting rights and inside washington baseball when there are bread and butter issues at stake.

I've written before, Trump got unlucky with a pandemic he couldn't do much about....he could have done things better but it still would have played out largely the same.  Same with Biden but his political malpractice is making things much worse, and coupled with his mental ability issues, it makes him look weak on top of everything.  He's way past George Sr. not knowing what a gallon of milk costs, past George Bush in the middle of a collapsing economy in 2008 territory and is rapidly sailing past Carter.


----------



## Desert Hound

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480968855409152001


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> Like I said many times before, this is the flu and we all got played because of the almighty $$$$$.  Nothing new under the sun on the planet and we all know it when we lay down to sleep at night, what the real TRUTH is.  The next phase in this heist will be healing.  We ALL need a break from this rat wheel of a life we were born into, to make a buck and work for the man.  2.0, trust me on this.  Money is shifting hands and the bad guys won;t have any more to print to hand out to their friends who obey orders.  Nope, were all getting a UBI and then based on our humanity work, rewards through tokens of appreciation will be handed out.  The more you help others and tell the TRUTH, the more tokens you will get.  Money will not be used as a tool to get what you want anymore.  Watch & just watch and see how this thing we call life will get fun for some, some will catch on and join the fun while others will hate the new way to make $$$$$.  @kickingandscreaming , so just flu shot now and I have to ask you honest Q.  I bet you wouldn't have taken the first shot if you know what you know two years later?


Oh, I definitely would have taken the first two shots. I believe that I may have gotten it between my first and second shots. I remember thinking, why does this coffee taste so bad? Fortunately, that's as bad as it was and passed after a few days. However, there are legitimate questions regarding how many vaccines to take in a short period of time.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480968855409152001


Yes!  Remember how many times we were called “Trumpanzee’s” or “QANON Whacko’s” for pointing out how Deaths where being listed as “with” Covid not “from” Covid because of situations like the one pointed out by Tapper…..I’m sure by the end of this year there will be more apologies due!


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I don’t think we need to close all indoor dining.  A vaccine requirement is appropriate, though.
> 
> Why now?  We are running out of hospital staff.
> To protect whom?  The 1500 people dying of covid each day.
> 
> You make it sound like you think it’s all over.


Who are these 1500 people a day who are dying? A vaccine mandate is not appropriate, it's a waste of time.  It's not stopping transmission, it never did and it never will.  We are not running out of hospital staff just to infection.  Many reasons why.  To boil it down to solely covid infection is silly and 100% false.  Every year hospital staffs suffer c-virus, influenza, rhino virus friction.  Literally every year.   While we are at it...stop with the bogus testing.  ERs are filling up with people who think they have covid and they don't. Or, they get a false negative.  The age old recommendation of stay home if you are sick this time of the year remains a thing.  I think someone has coined a phrase - Omicold.  

Now, if a private business makes a choice to require vaccines, have at it.  No shirt, no shoes, no vaccines....Fine.  If they require masking, then so be it.  Still dumb and a waste of time but it's a business decision by a business owner.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Yes!  Remember how many times we were called “Trumpanzee’s” or “QANON Whacko’s” for pointing out how Deaths where being listed as “with” Covid not “from” Covid because of situations like the one pointed out by Tapper…..I’m sure by the end of this year there will be more apologies due!


Do you actually believe they are self-aware enough to recognize this?


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> Same in our neck of the woods.  Went to HS games today and yesterday.  Nobody here is in panic mode.  Futsal (indoors) starts this weekend.  My kids are in school in person.  We have home test kits available at our local stores.  Even the bike parts I want to order are available on Amazon.  Life is pretty good.  I guess it could be a wee bit warmer.  Best of luck to y'all.


I see food in our shelves. However, my pal lives outside Columbus and they dont have much in selections right now.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Shortages, inflation hits 7 percent, shortages in testing, and everyone getting it.  Meanwhile Biden is focused on voting rights and the filibuster.  I thought the Trump admin was bad about politics qua politics, but man this is outright political malpractice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Grocery Store Shelves Are Bare. Again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inflation surges 7% in December, highest rate in 40 years
> 
> 
> Inflation rose at the fastest pace in nearly four decades in December, as rapid price gains fueled consumer fears about the economy and sent President Biden's approval rating tumbling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surging prices: Key inflation measure hits a 39-year high | CNN Business
> 
> 
> Pandemic price hikes didn't let up in the last month of 2021: A key inflation gauge hit a fresh a 39-year high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Mid terms are coming up.  Trust me Grace T and you can take this to the bank;  A big variant red wave from a surge from outer space will be hitting earth two weeks before the elections.  This is a big Red Storm that can;t be stopped unless they stop the planet from being free at last.  My bet is Wat Fly and others will get off their fence and hop on the peace train.  To keep everyone safe, it will be mandates to stay indoors, get boosterred and wear two mask and vote from home online on your computer.  Every vote must count.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you actually believe they are self-aware enough to recognize this?


No….not at all.

However, Project Veritas has been releasing some Interesting “information” (can’t confirm the authenticity) regarding Project Defuse.  If true, it explains a lot, but likely not.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The arrogance from Dr. Fauci never ceases to amaze me.  It may very well be that the Senator is a moron.  In fact, I quite readily would believe it based on the questions asked.  It may very well be that the question was stupid and the information is publicly available (though surprisingly we never get an answer where).  But this is conduct unbecoming a civil servant against one of our elected representatives who are entitled to ask stupid questions as part of their watch dog approach.  Again, not understanding the Biden politics of this all...why go off message and pivot to election reform and the fillibuster at a time when people are so focused on COVID and then let these two go off the way they did today without throwing them under the bus for what the public (rightfully or wrongfully) consider a covid policy misstep (or disaster, depending on how you want to characterize it based on your political leanings)?  I thought the Trump administration was bad at politics qua politics (the actual admin of political policy, managing legislation and elections and messaging it to the public) but this is just horrible horrible stuff.  The wheels are off the Biden admin.


Maybe they understand they lost the COVID issue (didn't shut it down) and feel they can do little about inflation so they are attempting to shore up the part of their base that is inordinately affected by Vaccine mandates. If the D's lose any portion of the black vote, the midterms might be even worse than they appear to be shaping up for them. I don't follow it that closely but it's something that might explain the change.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No….not at all.
> 
> However, Project Veritas has been releasing some Interesting “information” (can’t confirm the authenticity) regarding Project Defuse.  If true, it explains a lot, but likely not.


Looks like you are posting from Grace's level of authenticity -- Don't know what this is, don't know if it's real, but I'll put my name on it because I have been told that it reinforces our agenda.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you actually believe they are self-aware enough to recognize this?


They are more than aware enough.  You’re just wrong about whether it was at all important.

Deaths with covid would be roughly proportional to the infection rate for each age group.  This category didn’t get large until the infection rate got large- about a month ago.  

Before that, the fraction of people with active covid infections at any one time was pretty small.  Pretty small among the people who are alive that day, and pretty small among the people who died of non-covid causes that day.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Maybe they understand they lost the COVID issue (didn't shut it down) and feel they can do little about inflation so they are attempting to shore up the part of their base that is inordinately affected by Vaccine mandates. If the D's lose any portion of the black vote, the midterms might be even worse than they appear to be shaping up for them. I don't follow it that closely but it's something that might explain the change.


The politics of it don't really interest me that much.  DC will DC.  Fauci fatigue is alive and well.  His shady NIH dealings, the emails being touted about, and his inability to curb his ego on national TV will eventually make him exit stage left.  In some ways I feel bad for him.  To have an entire country depending on him to figure this out is quite daunting and has to be exhausting.

Novel viruses and disease are hard to figure out and usually take time.  Unfortunately his hubris got in the way and his reliance on big pharma for execution exposed that he's basically an advocate and no longer a scientist.  Researcher don't behave the way he behaves.  No big deal though, he's 81 and the highest paid human in government.  His pension will be nice and tidy and his  investments are nice and mature by now.  He should retire in peace.


----------



## Desert Hound

_Here’s what Albert Bourla, Pfizer’s chief executive officer, said on Monday in an interview on CNBC:

The hope is that we will achieve something that will have way, way better protection, particularly against infections because the protection against the hospitalizations and the severe disease, it is, it is reasonable right now, with the current vaccines as long as you are having let’s say the third dose.

Read those words very carefully.

Protection against “severe disease” is “reasonable right now” for people who have taken a “third dose” of Pfizer’s vaccine.

Put aside the fact that even those words are at best an optimistic interpretation of current data.

*Put aside the fact that Pfizer has NEVER compared a three-dose vaccine regimen to a placebo in a clinical trial.*

Put aside the fact that *“reasonable right now” suggests that any effect of a third dose will not last.*

What the chief executive of Pfizer is telling you is *THAT IF YOU RECEIVED TWO DOSES OF HIS COMPANY’S VACCINE LAST YEAR, YOUR PROTECTION IS GONE.*_
*
Even against “the hospitalizations and the severe disease.”
*
_*You need to be “having let’s say the third dose” for protection against those.*_
--

_Most people don’t understand yet how badly they were conned.

But they will.

The raw numbers are stark - in Ontario, for example, 76 percent of hospitalized people and 56 percent of those in intensive care are now vaccinated. Both the raw numbers and the percentages have soared in the last two weeks.

The data out of Europe are similar. The only reason the American data look different is* that we don’t get to see the raw numbers*. Instead, health authorities provide meaningless adjusted rate ratios (adjusted for age of vaccinated people, *but NOT for healthy vaccine user bias - the fact that frailest elderly people are often not vaccinated because they cannot be.*) Further, American hospitals report people as unvaccinated when their vaccine status is “unknown,” further skewing the ratios._

--

_But you can trust Albert Bourla: vaccine protection against severe outcomes drops over time - *and drops much more quickly against the Omicron variant.*

That’s one side of the coin.

The flip side is adverse events. *We don’t know how bad those are after a third dose, much less a fourth or fifth or more. (How can we? Remember, the companies didn’t test three doses against placebo.)

But the third-shot myocarditis data looks bad. It suggests a dose-dependent response. And the rise in all-cause deaths across Europe in the last few months cannot be ignored, even if the health authorities are ignoring it.*

I suspect the smartest people at the companies are increasingly aware of the potential crisis of repeated dosing. Which may be why Bourla also said in the CNBC interview, “*I don’t know if there is a need for a fourth booster.”*

What? In the same interview where Pfizer’s CEO warned people not to expect long-lasting protection from a third shot - “reasonable right now” - he also pivoted away from more boosters?

Instead Bourla talked up Paxlovid, his company’s new $530 per treatment antiviral. *“This is where most of the effort of most of the governments is moving.”*_

--

_More important for Bourla, the real risk to Pfizer - and to him - comes from side effects. People will be angry when they figure out that they’ve been *conned into taking vaccines that didn’t work. *But most of them won’t be furious, especially since Omicron appears much milder than earlier variants. Zero efficacy probably won’t destroy Pfizer or get anyone indicted.

But side effects might. People will be FURIOUS if they think they been conned into taking vaccines that didn’t work and potentially hurt them, or their parents, or their kids.









						If you are a vaccine company executive, it's time to slam the brakes
					

Pfizer's CEO Albert Bourla sees the dangers ahead, as his very carefully worded interview (worthy of close review) with CNBC yesterday shows.




					alexberenson.substack.com
				



_


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> They are more than aware enough.  You’re just wrong about whether it was at all important.
> 
> Deaths with covid would be roughly proportional to the infection rate for each age group.  This category didn’t get large until the infection rate got large- about a month ago.
> 
> Before that, the fraction of people with active covid infections at any one time was pretty small.  Pretty small among the people who are alive that day, and pretty small among the people who died of non-covid causes that day.


40% dead with covid vs from covid?


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you actually believe they are self-aware enough to recognize this?


Of course not because it would mean self reflection. It would mean admitting that not only were they wrong, but that they slandered those who pointed out in the hospital with covid is very different from because of covid.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> _Here’s what Albert Bourla, Pfizer’s chief executive officer, said on Monday in an interview on CNBC:
> 
> The hope is that we will achieve something that will have way, way better protection, particularly against infections because the protection against the hospitalizations and the severe disease, it is, it is reasonable right now, with the current vaccines as long as you are having let’s say the third dose.
> 
> Read those words very carefully.
> 
> Protection against “severe disease” is “reasonable right now” for people who have taken a “third dose” of Pfizer’s vaccine.
> 
> Put aside the fact that even those words are at best an optimistic interpretation of current data.
> 
> *Put aside the fact that Pfizer has NEVER compared a three-dose vaccine regimen to a placebo in a clinical trial.*
> 
> Put aside the fact that *“reasonable right now” suggests that any effect of a third dose will not last.*
> 
> What the chief executive of Pfizer is telling you is *THAT IF YOU RECEIVED TWO DOSES OF HIS COMPANY’S VACCINE LAST YEAR, YOUR PROTECTION IS GONE.*_
> 
> *Even against “the hospitalizations and the severe disease.”*
> 
> _*You need to be “having let’s say the third dose” for protection against those.*_
> --
> 
> _Most people don’t understand yet how badly they were conned.
> 
> But they will.
> 
> The raw numbers are stark - in Ontario, for example, 76 percent of hospitalized people and 56 percent of those in intensive care are now vaccinated. Both the raw numbers and the percentages have soared in the last two weeks.
> 
> The data out of Europe are similar. The only reason the American data look different is* that we don’t get to see the raw numbers*. Instead, health authorities provide meaningless adjusted rate ratios (adjusted for age of vaccinated people, *but NOT for healthy vaccine user bias - the fact that frailest elderly people are often not vaccinated because they cannot be.*) Further, American hospitals report people as unvaccinated when their vaccine status is “unknown,” further skewing the ratios._
> 
> --
> 
> _But you can trust Albert Bourla: vaccine protection against severe outcomes drops over time - *and drops much more quickly against the Omicron variant.*
> 
> That’s one side of the coin.
> 
> The flip side is adverse events. *We don’t know how bad those are after a third dose, much less a fourth or fifth or more. (How can we? Remember, the companies didn’t test three doses against placebo.)
> 
> But the third-shot myocarditis data looks bad. It suggests a dose-dependent response. And the rise in all-cause deaths across Europe in the last few months cannot be ignored, even if the health authorities are ignoring it.*
> 
> I suspect the smartest people at the companies are increasingly aware of the potential crisis of repeated dosing. Which may be why Bourla also said in the CNBC interview, “*I don’t know if there is a need for a fourth booster.”*
> 
> What? In the same interview where Pfizer’s CEO warned people not to expect long-lasting protection from a third shot - “reasonable right now” - he also pivoted away from more boosters?
> 
> Instead Bourla talked up Paxlovid, his company’s new $530 per treatment antiviral. *“This is where most of the effort of most of the governments is moving.”*_
> 
> --
> 
> _More important for Bourla, the real risk to Pfizer - and to him - comes from side effects. People will be angry when they figure out that they’ve been *conned into taking vaccines that didn’t work. *But most of them won’t be furious, especially since Omicron appears much milder than earlier variants. Zero efficacy probably won’t destroy Pfizer or get anyone indicted.
> 
> But side effects might. People will be FURIOUS if they think they been conned into taking vaccines that didn’t work and potentially hurt them, or their parents, or their kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a vaccine company executive, it's time to slam the brakes
> 
> 
> Pfizer's CEO Albert Bourla sees the dangers ahead, as his very carefully worded interview (worthy of close review) with CNBC yesterday shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alexberenson.substack.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


The current CEO has been making money for Pfizer for a long time.  Excellent track record of taking on business units within pfizer and making them more profitable.  He is the perfect person for this role and understands how to pivot from drug to drug to increase profitability.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Looks like you are posting from Grace's level of authenticity -- Don't know what this is, don't know if it's real, but I'll put my name on it because I have been told that it reinforces our agenda.


Looks like the internet is working in Mom’s basement again….


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Maybe they understand they lost the COVID issue (didn't shut it down) and feel they can do little about inflation so they are attempting to shore up the part of their base that is inordinately affected by Vaccine mandates. If the D's lose any portion of the black vote, the midterms might be even worse than they appear to be shaping up for them. I don't follow it that closely but it's something that might explain the change.


It is a combo of....

Starting to accept reality. As in this is endemic and what they have been proposing and doing has caused great harm.
And...
Politics. As more and more come around to the reality of we just have to live with it, they will not put up with the restrictions the Ds want to inflict. They are already likely in for a bloodbath this election cycle, but if they keep up doing stuff that doesn't work, the election cycle will be much worse
And...
The press largely carries water for the Ds, so suddenly they too are saying and doing things that just not long ago they derided.


----------



## Grace T.

Clark county pausing......









						Clark County schools to take 5 day 'pause' due to staffing shortages, COVID surge
					

LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- The Clark County School District announced they will close all schools on Friday and Tuesday due to staffing shortages.




					www.fox5vegas.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> They are more than aware enough.  You’re just wrong about whether it was at all important.
> 
> Deaths with covid would be roughly proportional to the infection rate for each age group.  This category didn’t get large until the infection rate got large- about a month ago.
> 
> Before that, the fraction of people with active covid infections at any one time was pretty small.  Pretty small among the people who are alive that day, and pretty small among the people who died of non-covid causes that day.


If they would have reported it this way from the beginning, they could actually show the difference you speak to now. Changing their preferred metric midstream looks like a cover for their chosen cause, and people are suspicious. They made their bed. Also, the use of the excess death graph would go a long way to make the point - from the beginning.


----------



## Grace T.

Yes, it's an outlier but in the last two weeks I'm convinced the bottom has dropped out.....the Congress split makes it even more eyepopping









						Quinnipiac Has Biden at 33 Percent Approval | National Review
					

It’s an outlier, yes, but goodness is today’s Quinnipiac poll a disaster for President Biden.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Deaths with covid would be roughly proportional to the infection rate for each age group.


False. 

You can and do have similar infection rates between age groups. The difference in deaths skew very heavily to the old and people with serious health issues. 

We know you can have 1000 teens infected with covid and it is unlikely any would die. On the other hand in the plus 75 age group if you have 1k infected, they would likely have many deaths.


----------



## Desert Hound

And yet Fauci and other "leaders" said this wasn't the case. The noble lie I guess. Much like in the same vein they have lied about surgical masks working. We have private emails from Fauci to a friend telling them surgical masks were worthless. But of course gov has to show it does something...so masking up became a thing.

Remember when the leaders and the press ridiculed those who said the virus was likely man made?


_Leading British and US scientists thought it was likely that Covid accidentally leaked from a laboratory *but were concerned that further debate would harm science in China, emails show.*

An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that Covid had rapidly evolved from a Sars-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.

The email, to Dr Anthony Fauci and Dr Francis Collins of the US National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans”.

But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that *“further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.*

Viscount Ridley, co-author of Viral: the search for the origin of Covid, said: “These emails show a lamentable lack of openness and transparency among Western scientists who appear to have been more interested in *shutting down a hypothesis they thought was very plausible, for political reasons.”*

In the emails, Sir Jeremy said that other scientists also believed the virus could not have evolved naturally. One such scientist was Professor Mike Farzan, of Scripps Research, the expert who discovered how the original Sars virus binds to human cells.

Scientists were particularly concerned by a part of Covid-19 called the furin cleavage site, a section of the spike protein which helps it enter cells and makes it so infectious to humans.

Summarising Professor Farzan’s concerns in an email, Sir Jeremy said: “He is bothered by the furin site and has a hard time (to) explain that as an event outside the lab, though there are possible ways in nature but highly unlikely.

“I think this becomes a question of how do you put all this together, whether you believe in this series of coincidences, what you know of the lab in Wuhan, how much could be in nature – accidental release or natural event? I am 70:30 or 60:40.”






*Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’*
Emails to Dr Anthony Fauci show ‘likely’ explanation identified at start of coronavirus pandemic, but there were worries about saying so




www.telegraph.co.uk_


----------



## Desert Hound

What else has our government inflicted upon is in the don Quijote like quest to eliminate the virus?

Only inflation which hurts those that can least afford it.

The latest inflation data, released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, showed prices in December rose to a *40-year high*, climbing 7.0 percent compared with the year before.

Cost/benefit.

Ever take those kind of classes dad?


----------



## Desert Hound

_Was it a guilty conscience that prompted Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky to tell the world on “Good Morning America” on Jan. 7 that *75 percent of COVID-19 deaths occurred among those with four or more comorbidities?*

If it wasn’t, it should have been.

Four or more? What would the percentage have been for those with a mere two or three comorbidities? Eighty-five? Ninety-five? Ninety-eight?

*It couldn’t be more obvious that COVID-19 was a serious danger most of all to those who were very sick in the first place*. The obese also had concerns, although that is rarely mentioned because not politically correct. And, alas, sometimes the recently vaccinated.

For that, we all had to be injected, masked up, locked down, and isolated for two years.

--

https://www.theepochtimes.com/guilty-conscience-cdcs-walensky-lets-the-covid-cat-out-of-the-bag_4207206.html_


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> And yet Fauci and other "leaders" said this wasn't the case. The noble lie I guess. Much like in the same vein they have lied about surgical masks working. We have private emails from Fauci to a friend telling them surgical masks were worthless. But of course gov has to show it does something...so masking up became a thing.
> 
> Remember when the leaders and the press ridiculed those who said the virus was likely man made?
> 
> 
> _Leading British and US scientists thought it was likely that Covid accidentally leaked from a laboratory *but were concerned that further debate would harm science in China, emails show.*
> 
> An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that Covid had rapidly evolved from a Sars-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.
> 
> The email, to Dr Anthony Fauci and Dr Francis Collins of the US National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans”.
> 
> But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that *“further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.*
> 
> Viscount Ridley, co-author of Viral: the search for the origin of Covid, said: “These emails show a lamentable lack of openness and transparency among Western scientists who appear to have been more interested in *shutting down a hypothesis they thought was very plausible, for political reasons.”*
> 
> In the emails, Sir Jeremy said that other scientists also believed the virus could not have evolved naturally. One such scientist was Professor Mike Farzan, of Scripps Research, the expert who discovered how the original Sars virus binds to human cells.
> 
> Scientists were particularly concerned by a part of Covid-19 called the furin cleavage site, a section of the spike protein which helps it enter cells and makes it so infectious to humans.
> 
> Summarising Professor Farzan’s concerns in an email, Sir Jeremy said: “He is bothered by the furin site and has a hard time (to) explain that as an event outside the lab, though there are possible ways in nature but highly unlikely.
> 
> “I think this becomes a question of how do you put all this together, whether you believe in this series of coincidences, what you know of the lab in Wuhan, how much could be in nature – accidental release or natural event? I am 70:30 or 60:40.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’*
> Emails to Dr Anthony Fauci show ‘likely’ explanation identified at start of coronavirus pandemic, but there were worries about saying so
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk_


Fortunately, we had "good journalists" to ferret out the truth. Damn, what a cluster fuck for journalism and the scientific community. For all the whining I hear about the end of democracy coming in the US, it's the end of journalism that is the issue right now. Way too many lapdogs to these lying politicians masquerading as Scientists.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> False.
> 
> You can and do have similar infection rates between age groups. The difference in deaths skew very heavily to the old and people with serious health issues.
> 
> We know you can have 1000 teens infected with covid and it is unlikely any would die. On the other hand in the plus 75 age group if you have 1k infected, they would likely have many deaths.


False?

Positive covid tests, by age group, are about 10-30 times as high today as they were back in the summer of 2020.

You’re seeing more “deaths with covid“ today because you have 10-30 times as many “people with covid.”

But, back when you raised the issue, the numbers were too small to matter.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> What else has our government inflicted upon is in the don Quijote like quest to eliminate the virus?
> 
> Only inflation which hurts those that can least afford it.
> 
> The latest inflation data, released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, showed prices in December rose to a *40-year high*, climbing 7.0 percent compared with the year before.
> 
> Cost/benefit.
> 
> Ever take those kind of classes dad?


The kind of class that explains that you get inflation when you mail everyone thousand dollar checks?

Yes.  I’m familiar with the concept.  I agree with you on it.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> False?
> 
> Positive covid tests, by age group, are about 10-30 times as high today as they were back in the summer of 2020.
> 
> *You’re seeing more “deaths with covid“ today because you have 10-30 times as many “people with covid.”*
> 
> But, back when you raised the issue, the numbers were too small to matter.


Yes...and?  You normally see more deaths with:  flu, c-virus, cold, etc this time of the year anyway.   With that said, transmisability right now is beyond control.  You are not going to get here there from here.  Covid zero is not an option, some have tried.  Besides, now you are likley to be cared for at a facility by someone who is positve but asymptomatic.  Imagine how that's going to play out.  

Let's work on:  early treatment, boosting those with risk, rehiring nurses/staff.  While we are at it, maybe discuss how nurses and such are leaving for more profitable ventures within the industry.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> 0.1 < X < 1.0


Seasonal Flu range… ok. That was about where I thought you were at.

Most are not on board with the couple of additional years that would take. My guess is compliance fatigue to mitigation peaks in April/May around the two year anniversary of ‘Flatten the curve’ and after the omicron wave de-stigmatizes the ‘unclean’ view of those who fall ill even when compliant, vaccinated and boosted.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I am in favor of adult vaccine passports and mask requirements.
> 
> If you aren’t vaccinated, you should not be in high risk areas.  So, a vacation to Vegas is inappropriate.  A vacation to Joshua Tree is just fine.
> 
> I’m guessing it will be moot in four weeks or so anyway.


So the skiing part of my trip your OK with, but the conference part with 200 people indoors mostly maskless but vaccinated is inappropriate?

I can tell you that the business world has moved on from Covid.  Its not just a matter of necessity its a matter of reality.

Have you even returned to in-person work since March 2020?


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The numbers though are declining even after week 10. The only benefit from a booster you are getting if under 60 is just pushing back when you will get it…you’ll still get it and plenty of triple vaxxed people getting it. The benefit over sixty is there is still a moderate-significant decline in severity of symptoms. We should be boosting the elderly. Want to make it mandatory?  That’s where the bang is for your buck. Boosting teenagers isn’t doing very much


Actuallyl, all of this is quite ludicrous.  Study out of CA indicates hospital stays are 3 days or less for someone admitted with little O.   I would sarcastically say the stay was only worth 1 day because you checked then you had to check out.  That's less days than influenza stay data suggests.  The absurdity right now is at an all time high.  Vaccinating healthy people against little O is perplexing.

By the way, the likley way to go IF you want to vaccinate your child is to vaccinate with just one dose.  Seems to be an emerging thought out of many offices.  If you decide to do 2 shots, espially for older kids, space out beyond 4 months for dose #2.  Again, what exactly are you vaccinating against?  If your child is healthy?  don't know.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The kind of class that explains that you get inflation when you mail everyone thousand dollar checks?
> 
> Yes.  I’m familiar with the concept.  I agree with you on it.


That's not what's driving inflation.  The checks are already through the system already and you could argue they were a necessary stimulus when the economy was beginning to stall out.  Right now inflation is primarily being driven by staples, even in the pricing chart that's been posted.  The main culprits were the amount of the government spend, the labor shock, the supply shock (given disruptions to certain providers), and the shift from services to consumer goods.  Some of this was baked in and unavoidable.  A lot of it is due to the policies that the government has pursued whether it be the huge spend, quarantine procedures, the uncertainties surrounding schools, etc.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's not what's driving inflation.  The checks are already through the system already and you could argue they were a necessary stimulus when the economy was beginning to stall out.  Right now inflation is primarily being driven by staples, even in the pricing chart that's been posted.  The main culprits were the amount of the government spend, the labor shock, the supply shock (given disruptions to certain providers), and the shift from services to consumer goods.  Some of this was baked in and unavoidable.  A lot of it is due to the policies that the government has pursued whether it be the huge spend, quarantine procedures, the uncertainties surrounding schools, etc.


Is economics another thing that you are learning by doing?


----------



## Grace T.

Seriously what's up with all the footballers and heart problems.  Now with Coulbaly?  Is it the vaxx, COVID, a data speck we didn't realize before COVID or is there some kind of doping/drugs going around the football community that we don't know about????  I'd think it's a problem that FiFa now needs to urgently get to the bottom of.  I remember there being some issues in basketball early on in the pandemic but have there been others?  









						Four footballers killed by heart attacks over Christmas week intensifies expert attention
					

The deaths of the Croatian Cacic (23 years old), the Omani Al-Raqadi (29), the Egyptian Amin (23) and the Algerian Loukar (30) occur amid the echoes of the sudden retirement of Sergio Agüero




					www.infobae.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Is economics another thing that you are learning by doing?


"Oh Magoo, that's a jolly good one!  Well done old bean!"


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481315911843856387
the CDC director now touting the Kaiser study.  Her COVID zero fans won't be happy.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481315911843856387
> the CDC director now touting the Kaiser study.  Her COVID zero fans won't be happy.


Those of us on Team Reality are relieved to finally hear what we’ve been saying be supported by the talking heads.

now to get rid of these moronic “Vaccine” mandates.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481315911843856387
> the CDC director now touting the Kaiser study.  Her COVID zero fans won't be happy.


You kidding?  She’s saying fewer people are being hurt.  Of course that is good news.

Also good news that case counts in parts of the east coast (DC, NJ, MD) are starting to drop.  Rest of us should follow in a week or so.

Should be calm for opening day.  Go Quakes.  (And yes, I’ll wear my N95 until then.  Sorry.)


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Clark county pausing......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clark County schools to take 5 day 'pause' due to staffing shortages, COVID surge
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -- The Clark County School District announced they will close all schools on Friday and Tuesday due to staffing shortages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5vegas.com


Grace T, just got off the phone with my plumber pal in LA.  His whole crew got the jabs except for one guy.  Over half of the guys who got jabbed have called in sick with sniffles, cough and they all fell like shit and he can;t fulfill his calls.  No one is milking this so they can stay home either.  100% sick after triple jabs with Flurona.  The one not jabbed is in high demand and working lot's of OT.  The way this one side has been playing this informational war is by reflecting their shit unto us, lie, cheat and trick us as if were the bad person.  Basically, Dad would say the non jabber plumber brought the Omicron and passed it to the triple protected, double mask workers and it's all his fault.  My pal loves him and has learned a lot through this science experiment first hand.  I sit unable to provide a living for my family unless I cave into Dads demands and roll sleeve up and take boosters forever.  What pisses me off so much and so hard to take is how blind and hard hearted some people I know are.  Here I am working my ass off to eat healthy and be responsible with how I treat my body and I can't go make a buck unless I take the shits.  I lose 45 pounds, drink water all day ((no booze)) and I feel like a champ but I can't work my gig because.  Thanks for nothing pals!!!  I hurt deeply you guys and I would never want someone to be left to the curb because he refuses to roll his arm up for the team.   Karma is coming though and that makes me super happy


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> So the skiing part of my trip your OK with, but the conference part with 200 people indoors mostly maskless but vaccinated is inappropriate?
> 
> I can tell you that the business world has moved on from Covid.  Its not just a matter of necessity its a matter of reality.
> 
> Have you even returned to in-person work since March 2020?


Not the big box bro and they control you all.  Were so screwed.  Pain is coming because they all above the law.  Remember, no one is above the law?  Ya, right......Have fun playing business man is this shit.  Dude, the whole thing and I mean all of it except for 2% is pure gold.  The rest is built on pure evil shit.  Get out and wait this out.  I went to get some Thai today and the place was dead.  Mask wearing waitresses, host, chef but no customers.  Everyone is back to waering mask.  It's on.  The people look like complete fools after Dr. Fraud spoke.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Seriously what's up with all the footballers and heart problems.  Now with Coulbaly?  Is it the vaxx, COVID, a data speck we didn't realize before COVID or is there some kind of doping/drugs going around the football community that we don't know about????  I'd think it's a problem that FiFa now needs to urgently get to the bottom of.  I remember there being some issues in basketball early on in the pandemic but have there been others?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four footballers killed by heart attacks over Christmas week intensifies expert attention
> 
> 
> The deaths of the Croatian Cacic (23 years old), the Omani Al-Raqadi (29), the Egyptian Amin (23) and the Algerian Loukar (30) occur amid the echoes of the sudden retirement of Sergio Agüero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.infobae.com


I think it's the high pace of the game mixed with some bat shit.  WTF!!!


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> What else has our government inflicted upon is in the don Quijote like quest to eliminate the virus?
> 
> Only inflation which hurts those that can least afford it.
> 
> The latest inflation data, released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, showed prices in December rose to a *40-year high*, climbing 7.0 percent compared with the year before.
> 
> Cost/benefit.
> 
> Ever take those kind of classes dad?


I guess if you are going with a graphic from the *Daily Heil*, I'll have to put something from the Guardian out there to balance it out.

Some other thoughts on inflation, i.e. some would say profiteering - and yes there has been a cash influx, pent up demand, supply chain issues and a record saving rate in 2020 (lockdown) which all contributed to inflation - but we should also add in "profiteering" from various companies, because they can and the "market" is not really as "free" as people are told.

We need to talk about the real reason behind US inflation | Robert Reich | The Guardian 

Exclusive: oil companies’ profits soared to $174bn this year as US gas prices rose | Oil and gas companies | The Guardian


----------



## thirteenknots

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480214043906514958
Anyone from Latin America knows what this Video
signifies, anyone that Poo Poos this video and what's 
coming needs to talk to anyone from Latin America....

It's coming hard and fast!

All due to an incompetent " Resident " currently occupying 
1600 Pennsylvania Ave and his cronies who stole an election.

In a while you will be begging for handouts wondering how
this could happen in these United States.


----------



## Ellejustus

The Make-A-Wish Foundation refused to grant 4-year-old cancer patient Rocco DiMaggio a wish to go to Disneyworld because he is not vaccinated.

His age group, which includes his younger 2-year-old brother, is not eligible for the jab.

“It was a punch in the gut,” Rocco’s mom told Newsmax of the Make-A-Wish Foundation’s policy that led to canceling the Disneyworld opportunity.


The policy states that all families members for groups with wishes that involve air travel must be vaccinated.


----------



## Ellejustus

52% of college age kids gained over 20 pounds last year.
Lockdowns put over 130m people into object poverty.
325,000 people skipped Chemo last year
300% increase of teenage self-harm
51% more females killed themselves
300% increase teenage anixiety
People fired left and right for saying no to jab
Triple Jabbed are home sick and the non jab are being asked to do extra work before they get fired


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I guess if you are going with a graphic from the *Daily Heil*, I'll have to put something from the Guardian out there to balance it out.
> 
> Some other thoughts on inflation, i.e. some would say profiteering - and yes there has been a cash influx, pent up demand, supply chain issues and a record saving rate in 2020 (lockdown) which all contributed to inflation - but we should also add in "profiteering" from various companies, because they can and the "market" is not really as "free" as people are told.
> 
> We need to talk about the real reason behind US inflation | Robert Reich | The Guardian
> 
> Exclusive: oil companies’ profits soared to $174bn this year as US gas prices rose | Oil and gas companies | The Guardian


OMG....this horrid Elizabeth Warren/Robert Reich type thinking.  There's no such thing as "profiteering".  In a market economy, prices are set by the confluence of supply and demand.  If an outside entity raises prices artificially high, demand for the product will fall (and competitors will swoop in to restore equilibrium).  If demand for good is set artificially low, you have shortages.  It's not because corporations decide to "profiteer"....it's what the market will bear and they are just taking advantage of it, because they owe that duty to their shareholders to maximize profits (which for some businesses like the supermarket businesses is a really really very small margin).

The only way around the price equilibrium is to exercise some sort of monopoly power or for various competitors to collude to create an artificial monopoly (the point raised in the Reich piece).  The oil industry is not a monopoly and the profits do not go mostly to the gas company....they go to countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia which do in fact collude to set higher oil prices.  As to the rest, most of the industries are not monopolies.  In the article, Reich mentions CocaCola and Pepsi, which are two distinct companies, and have several smaller competitors.  If the allegation is that CocaCola and Pepsi are colluding to artificially raise prices, then that is an antitrust violation (and why the antitrust laws were created).  And you know who enforces the antitrust laws?  Joe Biden's DOJ and FTC.  If that's really what's going on, it's Joe Biden's fault.  More likely, though, this is more Robert Reich craziness as he went completely off mainstream economics some time ago.  What they are really saying is they don't like capitalism and would prefer to have a more socialist driven economy....good luck with that.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> In some cases, incentives are more effective than mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine appointments multiply after Quebec requires shots for weed, alcohol stores ｜ New York Daily News
> 
> 
> They’re going shots for shots. First-dose vaccine appointments quadrupled in Quebec after the Canadian province required vaccine passports to buy alcohol and marijuana. Quebec announced the new rules Thursday, when there were an average of 1,500 first dose appointments, the Montreal Gazette...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nordot.app


Raising the incentive stakes --









						Canada says vaccine mandates work as Quebec's 'unvaxxed tax' leads to spike in first-dose appointments | CNN
					

One day after the Canadian province of Quebec announced it would financially penalize residents who are unvaccinated, the province's health minister said Wednesday first-time appointments spiked in the hours following the announcement.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> OMG....this horrid Elizabeth Warren/Robert Reich type thinking.  There's no such thing as "profiteering".  In a market economy, prices are set by the confluence of supply and demand.  If an outside entity raises prices artificially high, demand for the product will fall (and competitors will swoop in to restore equilibrium).  If demand for good is set artificially low, you have shortages.  It's not because corporations decide to "profiteer"....it's what the market will bear and they are just taking advantage of it, because they owe that duty to their shareholders to maximize profits (which for some businesses like the supermarket businesses is a really really very small margin).
> 
> The only way around the price equilibrium is to exercise some sort of monopoly power or for various competitors to collude to create an artificial monopoly (the point raised in the Reich piece).  The oil industry is not a monopoly and the profits do not go mostly to the gas company....they go to countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia which do in fact collude to set higher oil prices.  As to the rest, most of the industries are not monopolies.  In the article, Reich mentions CocaCola and Pepsi, which are two distinct companies, and have several smaller competitors.  If the allegation is that CocaCola and Pepsi are colluding to artificially raise prices, then that is an antitrust violation (and why the antitrust laws were created).  And you know who enforces the antitrust laws?  Joe Biden's DOJ and FTC.  If that's really what's going on, it's Joe Biden's fault.  More likely, though, this is more Robert Reich craziness as he went completely off mainstream economics some time ago.  What they are really saying is they don't like capitalism and would prefer to have a more socialist driven economy....good luck with that.


So now you got to Chapter 2 of your Econ 101 text?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So now you got to Chapter 2 of your Econ 101 text?


"Oh Magoo, you old bean, youve done it again, by Jove!"

p.s. if you support any of what he says (even with your dig at me), you aren't a "conservative" that the Republicans ran away from, or an independent, or a moderate....you are an outright left of Bernie Bro socialist.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I give espola credit. At least his worthless answers are short - unlike other members of the Borg Troll Collective. TL : DR


----------



## Ellejustus

#22 Tennis player had breathing problems at the ADP and is out.  This is serious and I feel horrible.  The pressure to obey and get the Jab in order to pay and play with your life is insane.  The pressure to compete and keep up in the rat race is getting dangerous as well.  Jab and keep job is costing people a lot more then losing their jobs.  What good is a job if your sick all the time or worse, have chest pain and even worse then pain in the chest, is die of cardiac arrest?


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> OMG....this horrid Elizabeth Warren/Robert Reich type thinking.  There's no such thing as "profiteering".  In a market economy, prices are set by the confluence of supply and demand.  If an outside entity raises prices artificially high, demand for the product will fall (and competitors will swoop in to restore equilibrium).  If demand for good is set artificially low, you have shortages.  It's not because corporations decide to "profiteer"....it's what the market will bear and they are just taking advantage of it, because they owe that duty to their shareholders to maximize profits (which for some businesses like the supermarket businesses is a really really very small margin).
> 
> The only way around the price equilibrium is to exercise some sort of monopoly power or for various competitors to collude to create an artificial monopoly (the point raised in the Reich piece).  The oil industry is not a monopoly and the profits do not go mostly to the gas company....they go to countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia which do in fact collude to set higher oil prices.  As to the rest, most of the industries are not monopolies.  In the article, Reich mentions CocaCola and Pepsi, which are two distinct companies, and have several smaller competitors.  If the allegation is that CocaCola and Pepsi are colluding to artificially raise prices, then that is an antitrust violation (and why the antitrust laws were created).  And you know who enforces the antitrust laws?  Joe Biden's DOJ and FTC.  If that's really what's going on, it's Joe Biden's fault.  More likely, though, this is more Robert Reich craziness as he went completely off mainstream economics some time ago.  What they are really saying is they don't like capitalism and would prefer to have a more socialist driven economy....good luck with that.


LOL, I was merely countering the Daily Heil nonsense, esp. as for the UK in particular, Brexit, which the Daily Heil desperately wanted has hugely impacted supply and prices, i.e. bare shelves on the UK mainland (out of the EU) vs no shortages in Northern Ireland (part of the UK but still in the EU market due to the Brexit deal), labor shortages (EU citizens left), truck driver shortages (EU citizens left), harvests rotting (EU citizens ...), UK imports most of its food (borders now so delays as out of the EU) etc. 

I don't disagree with the general premise of the market rectifying, but realistically there's no quick entry to many (or even most) of these markets, so blind belief that the market will sort it out is many times unrealistic, hence we have anti-trust laws, as you point out. Also, anti-trust investigations and suits take years to run their course, as you know, so the ability of anyone to rectify these things short term is minimal, barring major intervention in the market by governments.

From my under-educated perch, its seems that costs have risen, so have prices, but companies quickly figured out that they could tack on extra PLUS they no longer had to run discount promotions etc., basically they have increased margins (via prices) while complaining about the pandemic & supply chain issues etc. raising costs, as cover. Fine for them, but it impacts everyone's pocket, those who can least afford it most but the rest of us too.

I don't think it's incorrect to call it profiteering - the word just rubs some people up the wrong way, i.e. I wasn't suggesting it was not the market at work or that anything illegal was going on. Its just companies seeing an opportunity to screw extra out of their customers in the knowledge that they have nowhere else to go in the main.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo, you old bean, youve done it again, by Jove!"
> 
> p.s. if you support any of what he says (even with your dig at me), you aren't a "conservative" that the Republicans ran away from, or an independent, or a moderate....you are an outright left of Bernie Bro socialist.


There is more to economics than supply and demand, which you may discover as you get deeper into your assigned text.  For example, no society can survive if it is constructed in such a way that an elite portion of the population profits from driving the majority into poverty.  That's Teddy Roosevelt conservatism.


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> LOL, I was merely countering the Daily Heil nonsense, esp. as for the UK in particular, Brexit, which the Daily Heil desperately wanted has hugely impacted supply and prices, i.e. bare shelves on the UK mainland (out of the EU) vs no shortages in Northern Ireland (part of the UK but still in the EU market due to the Brexit deal), labor shortages (EU citizens left), truck driver shortages (EU citizens left), harvests rotting (EU citizens ...), UK imports most of its food (borders now so delays as out of the EU) etc.
> 
> I don't disagree with the general premise of the market rectifying, but realistically there's no quick entry to many (or even most) of these markets, so blind belief that the market will sort it out is many times unrealistic, hence we have anti-trust laws, as you point out. Also, anti-trust investigations and suits take years to run their course, as you know, so the ability of anyone to rectify these things short term is minimal, barring major intervention in the market by governments.
> 
> From my under-educated perch, its seems that costs have risen, so have prices, but companies quickly figured out that they could tack on extra PLUS they no longer had to run discount promotions etc., basically they have increased margins (via prices) while complaining about the pandemic & supply chain issues etc. raising costs, as cover. Fine for them, but it impacts everyone's pocket, those who can least afford it most but the rest of us too.
> 
> I don't think it's incorrect to call it profiteering - the word just rubs some people up the wrong way, i.e. I wasn't suggesting it was not the market at work or that anything illegal was going on. Its just companies seeing an opportunity to screw extra out of their customers in the knowledge that they have nowhere else to go in the main.


Screw extra out of customers?  Not too sure what their alternative was.  Once demand outstrips potential supply, your choices are inflation and shortages.  

We've seen some of each.  Neither is really good for the company image.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> There is more to economics than supply and demand, which you may discover as you get deeper into your assigned text.  For example, no society can survive if it is constructed in such a way that an elite portion of the population profits from driving the majority into poverty.  That's Teddy Roosevelt conservatism.


Teddy Roosevelt’s wasn’t a class conservative. He was a progressive. Incidentally I was part of the teddy roosevelt society in college (we’d have deep philosophical debates at the table under a painting of Roosevelt).

you’ll remember his solution was enhancing the antitrust laws..the enforcement of which is what I suggested. Again, if they aren’t being enforced (or even investigated) that’s on the Biden admin. But we have a remedy for the issue reich raises thats longstanding. 

there is nothing in mainstream economics that talks about the survival of societies based on wealth distribution.Ecobomics is concerned with economies except in hard left thinking. Your stripes are showing.  They look a little pink.  Which is pure comedy gold if the so-called “conservative” actually turns out to be a left of bernie bros socialist.


----------



## Ellejustus

Those who ate humble pie, good for you.  Karma Pie is coming hard for those who cheated & lied and lived in pride.  How did James O get all that Military Intel?  Marines?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> There is more to economics than supply and demand, which you may discover as you get deeper into your assigned text.  For example, no society can survive if it is constructed in such a way that an elite portion of the population profits from driving the majority into poverty.  That's Teddy Roosevelt conservatism.


You have NEVER run a business and it's quite glaringly 
obvious by your Marxist retorts.

Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive.
And a piece of shit.


----------



## thirteenknots

" I’m from the Government, and I’m here to help. "

Nine words that should scare the crap out of any sane human.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Teddy Roosevelt’s wasn’t a class conservative. He was a progressive. Incidentally I was part of the teddy roosevelt society in college (we’d have deep philosophical debates at the table under a painting of Roosevelt).
> 
> you’ll remember his solution was enhancing the antitrust laws..the enforcement of which is what I suggested. Again, if they aren’t being enforced (or even investigated) that’s on the Biden admin. But we have a remedy for the issue reich raises thats longstanding.
> 
> there is nothing in mainstream economics that talks about the survival of societies based on wealth distribution.Ecobomics is concerned with economies except in hard left thinking. Your stripes are showing.  They look a little pink.  Which is pure comedy gold if the so-called “conservative” actually turns out to be a left of bernie bros socialist.


That output looks like you're rushing again.


----------



## thirteenknots

*Eugene V. Debs*
*Roosevelt and His Regime*
*(1907)*
From Eugene V. Debs, *Labor & Freedom*, St Louis 1916, pp.55-72.
Originally published in *Appeal to Reason*, April 20, 1907.
Transcribed & marked up by Einde O’Callaghan for the *Marxists’ Internet Archive*.


Roosevelt and His Regime (marxists.org)


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That output looks like you're rushing again.


Your output looks like you’re trolling again…surprise surprise

what’s even funnier is you’ve built yourself quite a bit of a logic box again:  either you are lost again and showing yourself the stubborn feel, or you really are at a minimum a socialist fellow traveler (yet hilariously claim to be a conservative). You never disappoint. Truly truly funny stuff.


----------



## thirteenknots

Adam Espola Schiff is just like the current 
" Resident " of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Same age and a lying piece of donkey dung.

Always worked for/with the Government and 
creates//created his own twisted reality.

Below is an article from the Philidelphia Inquirer Sept 20, 1987.

Joe Lyin Biden claims he's a " Southerner " and embraced 
George Wallace ( A DEMOCRAT, A RACIST PIECE OF S#$T DEMOCRAT )


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> There is more to economics than supply and demand, which you may discover as you get deeper into your assigned text.


I agree with about this much of what you said…..It definitely does not cover wage inflation based on having to compete with robust unemployment benefits for labor jobs.  

Paying sewers $25/hr plus a 30% social tax (payroll tax tax, health insurance, ect) makes an expensive T shirt.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Your output looks like you’re trolling again…surprise surprise
> 
> what’s even funnier is you’ve built yourself quite a bit of a logic box again:  either you are lost again and showing yourself the stubborn feel, or you really are at a minimum a socialist fellow traveler (yet hilariously claim to be a conservative). You never disappoint. Truly truly funny stuff.


What is a stubborn feel?


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> Screw extra out of customers?  Not too sure what their alternative was.  Once demand outstrips potential supply, your choices are inflation and shortages.
> 
> We've seen some of each.  Neither is really good for the company image.


Its not demand outstripping supply though. 

Gas prices have shot up, but I've never had a problem getting gas, nor has anyone else. So there is & has been easily sufficient supply to meet the existing demand. Oil companies have made bank out of you & me, and also been subsidized to the tune of billions (annually) by you & me.

I can see some areas where it is the case, e.g. cars - forecourts are near empty, and prices are going up on new & used. That makes sense.

The article references staples going up in price and the companies making bank. Excluding an initial rush for a month or so in 2020, there's been no shortages on the shelves generally, i.e. supply has been keeping up with demand. You get something every now & then, but in the main, I have been able to go grocery shopping every week and buy whatever I want. That's not a demand/supply issue, that just a price hikes.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What is a stubborn feel?


I phone typo. It’s another double vowel. You know which.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Its not demand outstripping supply though.
> 
> Gas prices have shot up, but I've never had a problem getting gas, nor has anyone else. So there is & has been easily sufficient supply to meet the existing demand. Oil companies have made bank out of you & me, and also been subsidized to the tune of billions (annually) by you & me.
> 
> I can see some areas where it is the case, e.g. cars - forecourts are near empty, and prices are going up on new & used. That makes sense.
> 
> The article references staples going up in price and the companies making bank. Excluding an initial rush for a month or so in 2020, there's been no shortages on the shelves generally, i.e. supply has been keeping up with demand. You get something every now & then, but in the main, I have been able to go grocery shopping every week and buy whatever I want. That's not a demand/supply issue, that just a price hikes.


Price hikes are a supply and demand issue. That how, by definition, you get them since price is set by the interaction of the supply and demand curve.  You don’t see the shortages because the price has adjusted to the new supply or demand (eg steak becomes too expensive for some people so they do without or less). The only other thing which interferes with that is a 3rd party externality like a government policy (rent control which also artificially lowers the supply and creates a shortage) or monopolies (in which the Corp is able to take a monopoly premium by controlling supply and artificially limiting it in the market). What you just said, that it’s not a supply/demand issue, is like a kid adding 2+2=5 and then claiming why it’s wrong is it’s not really an addition issue.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Price hikes are a supply and demand issue. That how, by definition, you get them since price is set by the interaction of the supply and demand curve.  You don’t see the shortages because the price has adjusted to the new supply or demand (eg steak becomes too expensive for some people so they do without or less). The only other thing which interferes with that is a 3rd party externality like a government policy (rent control which also artificially lowers the supply and creates a shortage) or monopolies (in which the Corp is able to take a monopoly premium by controlling supply and artificially limiting it in the market). What you just said, that it’s not a supply/demand issue, is like a kid adding 2+2=5 and then claiming why it’s wrong is it’s not really an addition issue.


Ps the other big outside force is the value of money. If it declines (due to most often gov intervention…spending or printing) the price rises.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Price hikes are a supply and demand issue. That how, by definition, you get them since price is set by the interaction of the supply and demand curve.  You don’t see the shortages because the price has adjusted to the new supply or demand (eg steak becomes too expensive for some people so they do without or less). The only other thing which interferes with that is a 3rd party externality like a government policy (rent control which also artificially lowers the supply and creates a shortage) or monopolies (in which the Corp is able to take a monopoly premium by controlling supply and artificially limiting it in the market). What you just said, that it’s not a supply/demand issue, is like a kid adding 2+2=5 and then claiming why it’s wrong is it’s not really an addition issue.


No, costs of production increased, so prices increased, but the latter increased more (greater margin), hence greater profits, because they could. The price increases are driving inflation, and the higher the increase the higher the inflation number. 

Just limiting it to demand/supply is simplistic. That is true in some cases, i.e. my car example driven by a shortage of chips apparently or production plants closed down in Asia or whatever, but that's not true in every case and not even necessarily true in most cases.


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> Its not demand outstripping supply though.
> 
> Gas prices have shot up, but I've never had a problem getting gas, nor has anyone else. So there is & has been easily sufficient supply to meet the existing demand. Oil companies have made bank out of you & me, and also been subsidized to the tune of billions (annually) by you & me.
> 
> I can see some areas where it is the case, e.g. cars - forecourts are near empty, and prices are going up on new & used. That makes sense.
> 
> The article references staples going up in price and the companies making bank. Excluding an initial rush for a month or so in 2020, there's been no shortages on the shelves generally, i.e. supply has been keeping up with demand. You get something every now & then, but in the main, I have been able to go grocery shopping every week and buy whatever I want. That's not a demand/supply issue, that just a price hikes.


I have been expecting in my grocery runs recently to see recurrences of the 2020 empty shelves or posted purchase limits (2 to a customer and the like) on paper products, bottled water, masks, rubber gloves, sanitizer, etc.  There are holes where it looks like some brands are sold out but other choices are still available.  The only effect on my personal shopping was having to buy the name-brand antihistamine instead of the store's generic version.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I phone typo. It’s another double vowel. You know which.


Iphone might excuse your spelling, but not your thinking.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> That's Teddy Roosevelt conservatism.


Conservationist, not conservative.

The meanings of words change with their use.


----------



## N00B

whatithink said:


> No, costs of production increased, so prices increased, but the latter increased more (greater margin), hence greater profits, because they could.


Dollar margin vs percent margin.  Start over.  

The player that always would appear to come out ahead is the government in terms of tax revenue on higher gross amounts.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> No, costs of production increased, so prices increased, but the latter increased more (greater margin), hence greater profits, because they could. The price increases are driving inflation, and the higher the increase the higher the inflation number.
> 
> Just limiting it to demand/supply is simplistic. That is true in some cases, i.e. my car example driven by a shortage of chips apparently or production plants closed down in Asia or whatever, but that's not true in every case and not even necessarily true in most cases.


Again that’s economic illiteracy at its best. The price is driven by supply and demand outside of a handful of outside interventions like the value of money, exchange rate, government policies and monopolies.

profit is a different calculation.  The profit is the equilibrium price minus the cost to produce. If the cost to produce exceeds the equilibrium price, that particular manufacturer will cease to produce, supply contracts, equilibrium price rises.  If the equilibrium rises it increases supply in turn which means you can produce more.  The production costs are already built into the supply curve. 

These are basic basic basic principles for how markets operate. High school level stuff. One of the biggest problems in the country, particularly the left, is the dearth of an economics education. It should be a required course in high school.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Iphone might excuse your spelling, but not your thinking.


Hmmm….what’s your excuse then?  Hahaha!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

whatithink said:


> No, costs of production increased, so prices increased, but the latter increased more (greater margin), hence greater profits, because they could. The price increases are driving inflation, and the higher the increase the higher the inflation number.
> 
> Just limiting it to demand/supply is simplistic. That is true in some cases, i.e. my car example driven by a shortage of chips apparently or production plants closed down in Asia or whatever, but that's not true in every case and not even necessarily true in most cases.


ie Freight costs.


----------



## whatithink

N00B said:


> Dollar margin vs percent margin.  Start over.


Dollar margin can go down and % margin up, or both can go up or down - what is your point?


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Again that’s economic illiteracy at its best. The price is driven by supply and demand outside of a handful of outside interventions like the value of money, exchange rate, government policies and monopolies.
> 
> profit is a different calculation.  The profit is the equilibrium price minus the cost to produce. If the cost to produce exceeds the equilibrium price, that particular manufacturer will cease to produce, supply contracts, equilibrium price rises.  If the equilibrium rises it increases supply in turn which means you can produce more.  The production costs are already built into the supply curve.
> 
> These are basic basic basic principles for how markets operate. High school level stuff. One of the biggest problems in the country, particularly the left, is the dearth of an economics education. It should be a required course in high school.


It doesn't dispute the specifics I said or the points I made. Nice text book stuff though, finishing with labels & insults is consistent of you too. I hope that always makes you feel better, it would be a bit sad otherwise.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> It doesn't dispute the specifics I said or the points I made. Nice text book stuff though, finishing with labels & insults is consistent of you too. I hope that always makes you feel better, it would be a bit sad otherwise.


1. I never critiqued you. Only your argument. Again espola has shown us that it is ok to demean an argument. It’s the same as when dad4 critiques mathematical ignorance. No difference.
2. you said the price wasn’t about supply and demand. That’s false.  It’s always about it.  That’s the very definition as to how the price is set. Cost of production is built into the supply curve and how it shifts.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 1. I never critiqued you. Only your argument. Again espola has shown us that it is ok to demean an argument. It’s the same as when dad4 critiques mathematical ignorance. No difference.
> 2. you said the price wasn’t about supply and demand. That’s false.  It’s always about it.  That’s the very definition as to how the price is set. Cost of production is built into the supply curve and how it shifts.


3. Here’s another way to think about it. For every good there’s a little auction taking place. If the cost of production is too high the seller might take it at a loss or he might just stop producing or he might do stuff like cut cost corners. But that has to do with the supply of the good.  In the auction the seller is going to take the highest price. He isn’t tacking on a little more for profit…that’s not how the auction works. He just wants the highest price the bidding will produce. What you don’t like is that: a) the seller doesn’t stop at some point and let it go for a lower price (because enough is enough) and b) that as the price goes higher only the well off can keep bidding. But that’s capitalism.  Now add a government that tries to help by handing out free money to the bidders…the result remains the same but the price can go higher because of the free money….that’s inflation. Now reproduce this across society. That’s a market.


----------



## Desert Hound

Why people want to rush out and boost (and why certain politicians want you to) before knowing if it is wise is not good policy. This also ties in with mandates.


_European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots *could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible*.   Repeat booster doses every four months *could eventually weaken the immune response and tire out people*, according to the European Medicines Agency. Instead, countries should leave more time between booster programs and tie them to the onset of the cold season

--

Boosters “can be done once, or maybe twice, *but it’s not something that we can think should be repeated constantly*,” Marco Cavaleri, the EMA head of biological health threats and vaccines strategy, said at a press briefing on Tuesday. *“We need to think about how we can transition from the current pandemic setting to a more endemic setting.”*_

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
Copyright © BloombergQuint


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Why people want to rush out and boost (and why certain politicians want you to) before knowing if it is wise ((or safe for kids)) is not good policy.


I know why they rush out to get jabbed and a boostered and obey mask rules.  For many it's to be able to keep their job and stay out of politics at work and stay in good standing with the boss.  Some teenagers get the jab so they can play for YNT or in college.  Pros have to get jab or no pro.  I have empathy for everyone who got played and lied to by a snake oil salesman who say's he's a Doc.


----------



## Grace T.

The Agony of Parents With Kids Under 5
					

We thought help was coming. We were wrong.




					slate.com
				












						Normalcy for kids in Florida proves how wrong NYC’s school rules are
					

Consider this a plea from a new Floridian to her beloved home city: Stop the madness now. My children are finally in a place of sanity, and I’m so grateful, but I continue to be incensed on behalf …




					nypost.com


----------



## Grace T.

It's increasingly looking like if they didn't outright try and suppress the lab leak theory, at a minimum certain experts deliberately ostriched it.








						Why did scientists suppress the lab-leak theory?
					

In private, they said it was plausible. In public, they called it a conspiracy theory.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## Grace T.

See below.  Anecdotally about 1/2 the private schools and non LAUSD school districts in La County are on pause as well.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481681476777246720


----------



## thirteenknots

Everyone supporting Democrats/Rhinos/Criminals who are promoting/FORCING this
EVIL being unleashed...especially on this forum better wake up.....

The shits about to get real REAL !!!!!!

Laugh all you want Adam Espola Schiff, but you have been one of the
primary supporters/promoters of this crap. 

Get your ducks in a row...!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> It's increasingly looking like if they didn't outright try and suppress the lab leak theory, at a minimum certain experts deliberately ostriched it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did scientists suppress the lab-leak theory?
> 
> 
> In private, they said it was plausible. In public, they called it a conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.spiked-online.com


Stuff like this is all pretty breezy, good for a click and that's about it.  In the absence of proof, either scenario remains plausible.  Like omicron for instance-did it come from ping-pong tranmission with a zoonotic rodent population? Maybe.  Wanna prove it?  Gotta go out and identify that population.  At any event, it turns out the furin cleavage site, which is typically front and center in the CoV-2 origin controversy, is broadly found in natural coronavirus populations.  Again, doesn't prove one model vs another, but does serve to illustrate how nature is a much better genetic engineer than we are.  









						Furin cleavage sites naturally occur in coronaviruses
					

The spike protein is a focused target of COVID-19, a pandemic caused by SARS-CoV-2. A 12-nt insertion at S1/S2 in the spike coding sequence yields a f…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## thirteenknots

Criminal scientists burn/hide their books.

Real scientists welcome open dialogue.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Interesting things on the preprint server.  Study out of Geneva, where they decided to compare/contrast an old school virology approach with QPCR assessments of Delta break-though infections.  Highlights:  1) No meaningful correlation between viral RNA genome copies as quantified by QPCR and the actual number of infectious copies of CoV-2, ie even QPCR is at best a +/- assay for infection but does not say much about infectivity.  2) For delta, vaxx gives ~7X reduction in infectious viral units compared to unvaxxed, although PCR assessment would imply more similar viral loads. So vaxx is doing some sort of viral clearance not apparent by PCR. 3) Finally, omicron vs delta infections yield similar viral titers, so increased burst size does not explain increased transmission with omicron.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1.full.pdf


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

A nice study out of the Barclay lab in the UK (along with a flurry of similar studies) shows that while part of the increased transmisibility of omicron is due to immune escape, it also reflects rapid evolution of how omicron infects and replicates in cells.  Highlights: 1) Unlike previous Cov-2 variants, omicron does not require TMPRSS2 cleavage of S to initiate infection.  Instead it can exploit uptake by endocytosis, and does so in a way that makes this route of cell entry much more efficient.  2) Because of this omicron can infect upper respiratory tracts cells (which, unlike aveolar cells, do not express TMPRSS2) very efficiently.  This is likely a big part of why omicron is so much less virulent than delta- it doesn't need to get into lungs to establish a productive infection.  3) Omicron does not produce more viral genomes per infection than delta, but it really gets out of the gate fast, with 10-100X more viral replication in the first 24 hours post infection.  

So, wherever omicron came from, a take away is that it was still likely selected due mostly to increased infectivity rather than escape from immune suveillance.  




			https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.31.474653v1.full.pdf


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Finally, I've been scanning through stuff on "where is Cov-2 going".  Most of these are pretty much boiler plate and emphasize an outcome where the current sequence of variants settles down, and CoV-2 becomes another endemic seasonal C-virus. So its just a question of how many variants emerge and have their wave before we get to that point (with any subsequent waves hopefully not being more virulent).  That will almost certainly be part of what happens, but it may not be the whole story. 

The linked report from the UK is more comprehensive in terms of outcomes, and, unfortunately is somewhat more technical.  However  it one is interested in a more complete range of scenarios it is worth a look.   It was written before omicron and it is in some senses good to see that omicron fits within their likely scenarios. The report emphasizes several points re the view I've been trying to represent regarding long term (ie decades long) cell mediated insurance polices through vaccination.

4. (snip) SARS-CoV-2 undergoes a reverse zoonotic event into an animal reservoir(s). This virus is then on a separate evolutionary trajectory because the virus animals is subject to different selection processes than in humans. The SARS-CoV-2 decedents then re-emerge into humans at a later time....
*Likelihood:* Realistic possibility.

50.  (snip) Zoonotic reservoirs could lead to a large, expanded population of the virus with the potential for future dramatic variant change in the virus through recombination with another coronavirus already prevalent in that animal species....(cue badgers)

52.    The immune response to SARS-CoV-2 involves multiple mechanisms, including innate defences, antibodies, T cells, and B cells. While virus-neutralising antibodies are usually against specific sites exposed on the surface of virus proteins (ie the short term humoral immune component), T cells recognise peptide fragments from a wider range of viral proteins that may be conserved between viral variants, reducing the likelihood that immune escape will emerge.






						Long term evolution of SARS-CoV-2, 26 July 2021
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## Ellejustus

Is this considered misinformation?









						D. Peterson Pierre: Hospitals Payment Scheme Exposed (English, German subs, French subs, Spanish sub
					

MIRRORED FROM: Adverse Reactions from Covid Jabs Exposed: https://odysee.com/@Adverse:c https://odysee.com/@Adverse:c/Krankenha%CC%88user-erhalten-Geld-fu%CC%88r-Mord-an-Patienten:a Hospitals get money for the murder of pet patients, for bad trea…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound

The feds’ booster push shows public-health decisions aren’t data-driven
					

The push to boost every person in the United States has a scientific problem. New data show that vaccine booster efficacy against getting COVID can plummet to 35% with the Pfizer booster and 45% wi…




					nypost.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Some good news. 









						Supreme Court blocks Biden Covid vaccine mandate for businesses, allows health-care worker rule
					

The Supreme Court ruled against the Biden administration's rule for OSHA, saying it did not have the power to require vaccination for millions of Americans.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Some good news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court blocks Biden Covid vaccine mandate for businesses, allows health-care worker rule
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court ruled against the Biden administration's rule for OSHA, saying it did not have the power to require vaccination for millions of Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Split decision for my nurse friends.  Total BS Hound.  Thank you to all the health care workers who risk their life for us.  They deserve freedom as well as the rest of us.


----------



## Desert Hound

More bad ideas happening in the state of CA.

To try to fund their health care fantasy they want to implement taxes such as this.

_Under ACA 11, a new excise tax on businesses would be created equal to 2.3% of any annual gross receipts in excess of $2 million._

Espola probably thinks the above idea is sound. Husker has no idea what is going on. 









						California Democrats' single-payer healthcare plan passes first hurdle
					

Legislators move Assembly Bill 1400 forward in a contentious Health Committee hearing.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Stuff like this is all pretty breezy, good for a click and that's about it.  In the absence of proof, either scenario remains plausible.  Like omicron for instance-did it come from ping-pong tranmission with a zoonotic rodent population? Maybe.  Wanna prove it?  Gotta go out and identify that population.  At any event, it turns out the furin cleavage site, which is typically front and center in the CoV-2 origin controversy, is broadly found in natural coronavirus populations.  Again, doesn't prove one model vs another, but does serve to illustrate how nature is a much better genetic engineer than we are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furin cleavage sites naturally occur in coronaviruses
> 
> 
> The spike protein is a focused target of COVID-19, a pandemic caused by SARS-CoV-2. A 12-nt insertion at S1/S2 in the spike coding sequence yields a f…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedirect.com


The furin cleavage theory was thrown out the door rather quickly, it's easy to look up.  The behavior piece is what's interesting.  Servers taken off line, rush to the bat theory, closed access to the "cave".  Why the rush to immedietedly surpress any talk of a lab leak?  There are other behaviors that do not provide any type of definitive conclusion but certainly doesn't lend itself to exonerating wrong doing by the Wuhan Lab.  From what I understand and have been told, lab leaks are normally not nefarious, usually accidental.  

Disease behavior may also indicate a lab genesis. Makes for a good consipiracy conversation for sure...but many people appear to be leaning towards the accident leak theory.  Zoonotic investigation so far has turned up nothing.  At least omicron disease is behaving in a way that doesn't make people scratch their head as much.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Some good news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court blocks Biden Covid vaccine mandate for businesses, allows health-care worker rule
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court ruled against the Biden administration's rule for OSHA, saying it did not have the power to require vaccination for millions of Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Between the poll numbers, the Sinema fillibuster speech, the Biden press conference  and the memes that went out and now this, the President is not having a very good day.

The OSHA opinion is interesting.  Just speed read it....the main opinion basically argues vaccines are not like work place safety since the vaccines leave with you at the end of the day.  The Gorsuch concurrence argues admin law.  The dissent special emergency.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> * The dissent special emergency.*


So true.  I know why their in such an emergency too but no one believes that so I'll just wait over here as you guys catch up.  Like I said a long time ago, this is a military sting operation on the biggest heist ever on the American peeps.  Informational war instead of real war.  Two choices to choose from Grace T.  Right or Wrong.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## espola

Joe Rogan echo --









						Hundreds of doctors petition Spotify to address Joe Rogan’s ‘history of broadcasting misinformation’ ｜ New York Daily News
					

A collection of 270 medical professionals reportedly signed an open letter to Spotify asking the media platform to rein in Joe Rogan, its most listened to podcaster, whom they accuse of promoting junk science with regards to the COVID pandemic. Their chief complaint is aimed at a Dec. 31 episode...




					nordot.app


----------



## Ellejustus

I stand with Dr. Peter, Dr. Robert and Dr. Scott and the other *50,000 Docs*.  EspolaNews is the WRONG news.


----------



## N00B

whatithink said:


> Dollar margin can go down and % margin up, or both can go up or down - what is your point?


You’re source is editorializing and cherry picking data.  

Specific to that article on P&G and their pandemic profiteering (Lol), they’re running at 2009 margin levels in 2021…. fairly certain that costs of operations have not declined in the last decade+.  They’re actually below their 5yr average of 49.53%, though the peak in the last 5 years was 53.14% in Dec of 2020 (was still less than Dec 2009’s 53.70%).

*Historical Gross Profit Margin (Quarterly) Data*
View and export this data back to 1989.


*Date**Value*​September 30, 202149.04%​June 30, 202148.32%​March 31, 202150.73%​December 31, 202053.14%​September 30, 202052.68%​June 30, 202049.47%​March 31, 202049.37%​December 31, 201951.38%​September 30, 201950.99%​June 30, 201947.71%​March 31, 201948.81%​December 31, 201848.85%​September 30, 201849.17%​June 30, 201845.04%​March 31, 201848.50%​December 31, 201749.93%​September 30, 201750.35%​June 30, 201747.75%​March 31, 201749.79%​December 31, 201650.77%​September 30, 201650.95%​June 30, 201647.94%​March 31, 201649.76%​December 31, 201549.99%​September 30, 201550.67%​*Date**Value*​June 30, 201546.61%​March 31, 201547.27%​December 31, 201448.32%​September 30, 201448.14%​June 30, 201438.40%​March 31, 201448.88%​December 31, 201350.36%​September 30, 201349.24%​June 30, 201349.31%​March 31, 201349.78%​December 31, 201250.94%​September 30, 201250.09%​June 30, 201248.66%​March 31, 201249.31%​December 31, 201150.10%​September 30, 201149.81%​June 30, 201148.50%​March 31, 201150.79%​December 31, 201051.81%​September 30, 201051.85%​June 30, 201050.54%​March 31, 201051.90%​December 31, 200953.70%​September 30, 200952.55%​June 30, 200949.04%​


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Joe Rogan echo --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of doctors petition Spotify to address Joe Rogan’s ‘history of broadcasting misinformation’ ｜ New York Daily News
> 
> 
> A collection of 270 medical professionals reportedly signed an open letter to Spotify asking the media platform to rein in Joe Rogan, its most listened to podcaster, whom they accuse of promoting junk science with regards to the COVID pandemic. Their chief complaint is aimed at a Dec. 31 episode...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nordot.app


only 270?  So funny that Rogan is in everyone's head.  Why didn't those 270 "professionals" get uptight about other respected and pedigreed medical professionals who've been on his show.  Malone must hit a particular nerve.  Mass formation psychosis must have struck a nerve


----------



## Ellejustus

N00B said:


> You’re source is editorializing and cherry picking data.
> 
> Specific to that article on P&G and their pandemic profiteering (Lol), they’re running at 2009 margin levels in 2021…. fairly certain that costs of operations have not declined in the last decade+.  They’re actually below their 5yr average of 49.53%, though the peak in the last 5 years was 53.14% in Dec of 2020 (was still less than Dec 2009’s 53.70%).
> 
> *Historical Gross Profit Margin (Quarterly) Data*
> View and export this data back to 1989.
> 
> 
> *Date**Value*​September 30, 202149.04%​June 30, 202148.32%​March 31, 202150.73%​December 31, 202053.14%​September 30, 202052.68%​June 30, 202049.47%​March 31, 202049.37%​December 31, 201951.38%​September 30, 201950.99%​June 30, 201947.71%​March 31, 201948.81%​December 31, 201848.85%​September 30, 201849.17%​June 30, 201845.04%​March 31, 201848.50%​December 31, 201749.93%​September 30, 201750.35%​June 30, 201747.75%​March 31, 201749.79%​December 31, 201650.77%​September 30, 201650.95%​June 30, 201647.94%​March 31, 201649.76%​December 31, 201549.99%​September 30, 201550.67%​*Date**Value*​June 30, 201546.61%​March 31, 201547.27%​December 31, 201448.32%​September 30, 201448.14%​June 30, 201438.40%​March 31, 201448.88%​December 31, 201350.36%​September 30, 201349.24%​June 30, 201349.31%​March 31, 201349.78%​December 31, 201250.94%​September 30, 201250.09%​June 30, 201248.66%​March 31, 201249.31%​December 31, 201150.10%​September 30, 201149.81%​June 30, 201148.50%​March 31, 201150.79%​December 31, 201051.81%​September 30, 201051.85%​June 30, 201050.54%​March 31, 201051.90%​December 31, 200953.70%​September 30, 200952.55%​June 30, 200949.04%​


I went to Mothers for some spaghetti sauce and its $9.85 for organic bottle.  The non gmo, organic, gluten free rice noodle were like $6.  I got a few things and it was over $100.  I told my wife I think it's cheaper to eat out now and that's what were going to now.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> only 270?  So funny that Rogan is in everyone's head.  Why didn't those 270 "professionals" get uptight about other respected and pedigreed medical professionals who've been on his show.  Malone must hit a particular nerve.  Mass formation psychosis must have struck a nerve


Joe & Dr. Robert helped my buddy big time.  He was dazed but loves UFC and Joe.  Non political guy too.  He got J & J and no more for him.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Joe Rogan echo --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of doctors petition Spotify to address Joe Rogan’s ‘history of broadcasting misinformation’ ｜ New York Daily News
> 
> 
> A collection of 270 medical professionals reportedly signed an open letter to Spotify asking the media platform to rein in Joe Rogan, its most listened to podcaster, whom they accuse of promoting junk science with regards to the COVID pandemic. Their chief complaint is aimed at a Dec. 31 episode...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nordot.app


lol


----------



## Desert Hound

So they will fight over not the number itself, but if the gov was purposely underreporting the numbers. 

That may be the case. 

But the more interesting number is again that such a high percentage of deaths are tied into long term care facilities. This population makes up a small percentage of the overall population, but constitutes a huge percentage of overall deaths. 

And yet we shut down vast swaths of our economy, schools, etc.....









						Michigan audit to show 'nearly 30%' more COVID deaths tied to long-term care facilities
					

A state audit is reporting the number of COVID-19 deaths linked to long-term care facilities is "nearly 30%" higher than state health officials have tallied.



					www.detroitnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

More overview of what SCOTUS did today.









						Fractured court blocks vaccine-or-test requirement for large workplaces but green-lights vaccine mandate for health care workers - SCOTUSblog
					

With COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations reaching a new record high as a result of the Omicron variant, the Supreme Court on Thursday put the Biden administration’s vaccine-or-test mandate for large employers on hold, while litigation over its legality continues in the lower courts. Over a dissent f




					www.scotusblog.com


----------



## N00B

Desert Hound said:


> More bad ideas happening in the state of CA.
> 
> To try to fund their health care fantasy they want to implement taxes such as this.
> 
> _Under ACA 11, a new excise tax on businesses would be created equal to 2.3% of any annual gross receipts in excess of $2 million._
> 
> Espola probably thinks the above idea is sound. Husker has no idea what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Democrats' single-payer healthcare plan passes first hurdle
> 
> 
> Legislators move Assembly Bill 1400 forward in a contentious Health Committee hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Just reducing the returns on all of the pension fund investments in those same companies.  No need to connect the dots on cause and effect…


----------



## what-happened

Bill Gates says 'COVID can be treated more like seasonal flu' after Omicron surge peaks
					

With COVID cases spiking and hospitals stretched to the limit, Gates said the Omicron variant brings some hope: A potential end to the pandemic.




					www.yahoo.com
				




I wonder if 270 "medical professionals" will ink their name to a sternly worded petition in response to Dr. Gate's declaration.  Seasonal cold , seasonal flu, c-virus, influenza...words don't matter.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Stuff like this is all pretty breezy, good for a click and that's about it.  In the absence of proof, either scenario remains plausible.


The fact that the lab leak is entirely plausible and the scientists/politicians knew it indicates that the actions they took were an attempted coverup. Some might consider an attempted coverup of a plausible source of the worst pandemic in 100 years to be more than "breezy, good for a click and that's about it". To each his own.


----------



## Grace T.

Inflation is outpacing wage growth.  If US metrics really aren't catching the full amount, we are looking at either a scary hyperinflation event, or more likely the Fed having to slam the breaks on the entire thing hard (and a resulting recession).  I had been thinking that much like the post 1919 epidemic, with job openings and optimism, we could be set for a Roaring 20s type good times after the worst of the pandemic.  But if this article is correct, we could be looking at several more years of economic and social misery (the inflation alone if the article is correct is enough to send the Ds into the wilderness for a generation....or at least until the Rs, as the always do, mess up).









						Worst US inflation since ’82 is huge underestimate
					

Shelter accounts for about a third of American household expenditure, and the cost of buying or renting shelter is up nearly 20% over the past year. Yet the Consumer Price Index (CPI) for shelter r…




					asiatimes.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> (the inflation alone if the article is correct is enough to send the Ds into the wilderness for a generation....or at least until the Rs, as the always do, mess up).


Yes, there's something to the bible Proverb, "a haughty spirit goes before the fall". Historically, power engenders a haughty spirit that leads to a fall over and over and over ... I'm sure if there was a more pithy way to say it, the sentiment would be right there with the other certainties in life - death and taxes.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> The fact that the lab leak is entirely plausible and the scientists/politicians knew it indicates that the actions they took were an attempted coverup. Some might consider an attempted coverup of a plausible source of the worst pandemic in 100 years to be more than "breezy, good for a click and that's about it". To each his own.


To each their own-yep.  The "evidence" for attempted coverup seems pretty breezy to me.  I'm agonostic on the origin, but wanna see something solid one way or another.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> The fact that the lab leak is entirely plausible and the scientists/politicians knew it indicates that the actions they took were an attempted coverup. Some might consider an attempted coverup of a plausible source of the worst pandemic in 100 years to be more than "breezy, good for a click and that's about it". To each his own.


For a small enough value of "plausible".


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> To each their own-yep.  The "evidence" for attempted coverup seems pretty breezy to me.  I'm agonostic on the origin, but wanna see something solid one way or another.


You'll never get solid evidence, it's china.  Here is  some of the best journalism on the subject.  Katheran Eban is an excellent writer. Peter Attia had her on his podcast in Jul.  Both articles are long, the podcast with her and Attia is very good.









						The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins
					

Throughout 2020, the notion that the novel coronavirus leaked from a lab was off-limits. Those who dared to push for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark.




					www.vanityfair.com
				












						#169 - Katherine Eban: COVID-19 Lab Leak: Examining all sides of the debate and discussing barriers to a full investigation - Peter Attia
					

“There is no smoking gun per se. What there is is smoke coming out of a lot of windows. ... There is enough smoke coming out of enough windows that we cannot take the lab leak hypothesis off the table, and so for me, the most credible people on this, they're not saying it was a lab leak. What...




					peterattiamd.com


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, there's something to the bible Proverb, "a haughty spirit goes before the fall". Historically, power engenders a haughty spirit that leads to a fall over and over and over ... I'm sure if there was a more pithy way to say it, the sentiment would be right there with the other certainties in life - death and taxes.


"Humility comes before honor" is good one too.


----------



## espola




----------



## N00B

Different virus… but interesting!









						Epstein-Barr Virus Found to Trigger Multiple Sclerosis
					

The research could mark a turning point in the fight against MS




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Different virus… but interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epstein-Barr Virus Found to Trigger Multiple Sclerosis
> 
> 
> The research could mark a turning point in the fight against MS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com


“Others are already working on vaccines that could prevent infection with Epstein-Barr. Moderna, which created an mRNA vaccine against COVID-19, launched a phase 1 trial of an mRNA vaccine for Epstein-Barr earlier this month. And NIAID’s Cohen expects to begin a phase 1 trial of another Epstein-Barr vaccine by the end of February. If these researchers succeed, such vaccines might dramatically reduce the incidence of mononucleosis and some cancers. And now it is conceivable that they could do the same for MS.”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> The fact that the lab leak is entirely plausible and the scientists/politicians knew it indicates that the actions they took were an attempted coverup. Some might consider an attempted coverup of a plausible source of the worst pandemic in 100 years to be more than "breezy, good for a click and that's about it". To each his own.


On February 20th 2020 who said, “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Inflation is outpacing wage growth.  If US metrics really aren't catching the full amount, we are looking at either a scary hyperinflation event, or more likely the Fed having to slam the breaks on the entire thing hard (and a resulting recession).  I had been thinking that much like the post 1919 epidemic, with job openings and optimism, we could be set for a Roaring 20s type good times after the worst of the pandemic.  But if this article is correct, we could be looking at several more years of economic and social misery (the inflation alone if the article is correct is enough to send the Ds into the wilderness for a generation....or at least until the Rs, as the always do, mess up).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worst US inflation since ’82 is huge underestimate
> 
> 
> Shelter accounts for about a third of American household expenditure, and the cost of buying or renting shelter is up nearly 20% over the past year. Yet the Consumer Price Index (CPI) for shelter r…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asiatimes.com


Wages haven’t kept up with inflation since 1982. Still awaiting the “trickle down”.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> View attachment 12668


I love how say they like a “tell it like it is” kinda guy until that guy is saying something they don’t like.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> On February 20th 2020 who said, “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”


In FEB 2020?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I love how say they like a “tell it like it is” kinda guy until that guy is saying something they don’t like.


Who's they?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> View attachment 12668


Do you realize how stupid this meme is?  I can't believe you reposted. Eyeglasses?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Do you realize how stupid this meme is?  I can't believe you reposted. Eyeglasses?


Must you whine and moan in public?


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Do you realize how stupid this meme is?  I can't believe you reposted. Eyeglasses?


The eyeglasses thing makes it a bit ironic, considering the poster pasting it.


----------



## Grace T.

Went to Vallarta today. Where you are beginning to see the impact in Los Angeles is the meat and fish counters…maybe half the selections. Some packages brands out and some empty shelves but not too bad by way of shortages outside of the meat and fish.


----------



## NorCalDad

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wages haven’t kept up with inflation since 1982. Still awaiting the “trickle down”.


I think you mean trickle up.  Thanks Ronnie!


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Went to Vallarta today. Where you are beginning to see the impact in Los Angeles is the meat and fish counters…maybe half the selections. Some packages brands out and some empty shelves but not too bad by way of shortages outside of the meat and fish.


Lots of doom and gloom down there in your neck of the woods.  Best of luck to you.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wages haven’t kept up with inflation since 1982.


In what economic system do wages ‘keep up’ with inflation?

There is a reason that inflation and the policies that drive it are generally considered ‘bad’.  Even ‘wage-based’ inflation is not a benefit, it’s just descriptive of the problem… cost push inflation.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> On February 20th 2020 who said, “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”


I’m mixed on this quote, given the time period.

Half of me wants to say ‘huge-ly’ and mock the bombastic, self-serving statement by a political figure… the other half wants to critique the secretive and uncooperative/non-transparent communication out of China regarding COVID, not just to the US, but the whole world. (Italy may have more of a bone to pick on this topic).


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> I think you mean trickle up.  Thanks Ronnie!


It’s kind of both, depending on your point of reference.  Trickle down income and trickle up wealth, the equation must be balanced, sans inflation.  That’s is the opposite.  Thanks Carter!


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> To each their own-yep.  The "evidence" for attempted coverup seems pretty breezy to me.  I'm agonostic on the origin, but wanna see something solid one way or another.


With no access to the lab, the scientists, or the samples, what kind of solid evidence do you think you’re going to get?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> With no access to the lab, the scientists, or the samples, what kind of solid evidence do you think you’re going to get?


I'll listen to the podcast of the journalist posted earlier (VF hits a paywall for me).  I have followed the story but from my own angle. If there was some sort of deliberate engineering-which is what's ultimately implied by the gain of function stuff-it would be hard to do it without leaving traces in the viral genome sequence. If there is a signature, what is it? The CoV-2 genome has been scrutinized pretty hard at this point. If it is of natural origin, tracking the phylogeny should be able to reconstruct the lineage, although it is admittedly a difficult task-looking for strains in bats and other beasties spread all over the place. If it was a normal recombinant that arose from strains isolated in the wild and brought to Wuhan, with somebody screwing up and getting themselves infected, we may never learn of the event, unless our intelligence agencies have something definitive that has yet to see the light of day.  Ultimately, for the biology, either two coronaviruses got together and recombined as they tend to do, either in a culture dish or in nature, or....not. If it's a recombinant it would be really great to know the parental strains. Solid evidence could come from intelligence or good muckraking journalism, although you could just get smoke and mirrors, which I think is pretty much where its at.  But if you could see it or find it, the real answer must be embedded in viral genomes.


----------



## Ellejustus

"There should be *no fear*.  We are *protected* and we will always be *protected*.  We will be *protected* by the great men & woman of our Military & Law Enforcement.  And most importantly, WE WILL BE *PROTECTED* BY GOD!"  45


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Must you whine and moan in public?


Nahh, just calling them how I see them.  The meme is so incredibly dumb.  Do you even know why?


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> The eyeglasses thing makes it a bit ironic, considering the poster pasting it.


esepcially since Rand Paul doesn't deal in eyeglasses..


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'll listen to the podcast of the journalist posted earlier (VF hits a paywall for me).  I have followed the story but from my own angle. If there was some sort of deliberate engineering-which is what's ultimately implied by the gain of function stuff-it would be hard to do it without leaving traces in the viral genome sequence. If there is a signature, what is it? The CoV-2 genome has been scrutinized pretty hard at this point. If it is of natural origin, tracking the phylogeny should be able to reconstruct the lineage, although it is admittedly a difficult task-looking for strains in bats and other beasties spread all over the place. If it was a normal recombinant that arose from strains isolated in the wild and brought to Wuhan, with somebody screwing up and getting themselves infected, we may never learn of the event, unless our intelligence agencies have something definitive that has yet to see the light of day.  Ultimately, for the biology, either two coronaviruses got together and recombined as they tend to do, either in a culture dish or in nature, or....not. If it's a recombinant it would be really great to know the parental strains. Solid evidence could come from intelligence or good muckraking journalism, although you could just get smoke and mirrors, which I think is pretty much where its at.  But if you could see it or find it, the real answer must be embedded in viral genomes.


Plenty of independent brain power has gone into trying to determine origin.  Access to the server that was taken off line would do wonders.  The search for natural origin has supposedly been exhausted - according to the CCP.  There are very serious and smart people who don't peddle conspiracy theories that are not convinced this occurred naturally.  All that is being asked is unfettered access.  Which will likley not happen.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> Plenty of independent brain power has gone into trying to determine origin.  Access to the server that was taken off line would do wonders.  The search for natural origin has supposedly been exhausted - according to the CCP.  There are very serious and smart people who don't peddle conspiracy theories that are not convinced this occurred naturally.  All that is being asked is unfettered access.  Which will likley not happen.


Man made


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Nahh, just calling them how I see them.  The meme is so incredibly dumb.  Do you even know why?


All memes are meant to be funny and not always 100% factual. They only are “dumb” to those who don’t like the message.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Plenty of independent brain power has gone into trying to determine origin.  Access to the server that was taken off line would do wonders.  The search for natural origin has supposedly been exhausted - according to the CCP.  There are very serious and smart people who don't peddle conspiracy theories that are not convinced this occurred naturally.  All that is being asked is unfettered access.  Which will likley not happen.


Maybe all the answers are on Biden’s kids missing laptop? Lol!


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> All memes are meant to be funny and not always 100% factual. They only are “dumb” to those who don’t like the message.


Will you ever admit to being wrong and supporting liars and cheaters?  Can you say, "sorry?"  If you can come on here and show us all some humility, you will be honored.  If you continue down this path with haughty writing, then you will have serious Karma hit you in the face.  I had the best day ever in my life yesterday.  I would love to share why with you but you wouldn't believe me.  It's time to put you childish games away and be a man!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *all the answers are on Biden’s kids missing laptop? Lol!*


Wow,"lol" he says..... darkness has your soul bro.  Get help quickly, this is not a drill!!!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> All memes are meant to be funny and not always 100% factual. They only are “dumb” to those who don’t like the message.


Keep burying your head in the sand. It's ok if you now realize how this meme signals a degredation of intellectual grasp.  The meme has good intent and potential and could have been very effective.  Unfortunately it lacked a basic grasp of the subject.   Funny how easily you are riled up and how linear you are in its defense. 

I'm fine with the message it was trying to send.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe all the answers are on Biden’s kids missing laptop? Lol!


Is the laptop missing?  Again, basic stuff here.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wages haven’t kept up with inflation since 1982. Still awaiting the “trickle down”.


Instead you think somehow by gov taking more money from people and biz and giving it to preferred political constituencies will somehow do a better job. 

Because that is the opposite side of the argument right?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> With no access to the lab, the scientists, or the samples, what kind of solid evidence do you think you’re going to get?


I would think the best evidence is the FOIA emails we have from Fauci, etc who are discussing this. And  in those emails you have prominent scientist saying there is a very strong chance the virus came from a lab. And yet at the same time Fauci was publicly deriding anyone who suggested that fact.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> With no access to the lab, the scientists, or the samples, what kind of solid evidence do you think you’re going to get?


Agreed, but the bigger threat to me is not whether or not COVID was engineered, it's that legitimate questions about the source were peddled off as conspiracy theories by some in the mainstream media. The process of producing news matters. It's broken and continues to divide us as a county.

@EvilGoalie 21 calls the lab leak plausible. I can appreciate the circumspect approach. It's one an independent media needs and sorely lacking here.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Agreed, but the bigger threat to me is not whether or not COVID was engineered, it's that legitimate questions about the source were peddled off as conspiracy theories by some in the mainstream media. The process of producing news matters. It's broken and continues to divide us as a county.
> 
> @EvilGoalie 21 calls the lab leak plausible. I can appreciate the circumspect approach. It's one an independent media needs and sorely lacking here.


Unfortunately there has been a concentrated effort to downplay and attack the idea that a lab leak is plausible.  There has been for sometime, beyond the shadow of the mainstream media and science talking heads, the consenus that what has to be proven is that a lab leak didn't  happen.  The uncovering of emails, the way Fauci handles questions furthe reinforces this thought.  There are other reasons but these are the ones most people have in front of them. 

The disease generated by the virus is unusual, the origins are unknown.  The investigation was haphazard and involved people with ties to funding.  All of it is very unusual.  Nothing can be proven.  Governments operate in nefarious ways all the time, to include ours.  

Besides, JFK Jr. was supposed to come back.  That's a much better story to cover.


----------



## NorCalDad

Bayern Munich star Davies stops training due to mild inflammation of the heart
					

BAYERN MUNICH star Alphonso Davies has been forced to stop training after a heart scare. The 21-year-old has not played for the German giants since December 17 after he tested positive for Covid-19…




					www.thesun.co.uk
				




What's interesting about this case is Davies got the vaccine a long while ago, but came down with covid in December.  He had been playing games fine up till that point.  It's also curious to me why we're only seeing this in soccer players.  Like why not the NBA?  They exert themselves just as much.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> I would think the best evidence is the FOIA emails we have from Fauci, etc who are discussing this. And  in those emails you have prominent scientist saying there is a very strong chance the virus came from a lab. And yet at the same time Fauci was publicly deriding anyone who suggested that fact.


Emails, text and private conversation have ALL been recorded and no one is escaping this.  Time to fess up and change your cheating & lying ways ((not you Hound, the others)). The whole system was rigged the minute we came out of the womb.  I keep you telling guys the truth.  Pay to play is no more.  No more buying people to own them, no more bribing them to keep them as slaves at work and no more blackmail to do all the dirty work after you groomed them.  Being bought is not a crime by the way.  My best best liberal pay has seen the light.  He is asking me to help as mentor.  It's a miracle that no one will believe so why share it and get laughed at, told I'm a moron, hypocrite and just full of BS.  Confess your dirty deeds, wash up and come to the party in new clothing


----------



## NorCalDad

@dad4 looks like good news for us bay area folk:









						Has omicron crested in the Bay Area? Sewage samples seem to suggest so
					

Santa Clara County’s wastewater surveillance tool indicates that levels of coronavirus...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> Bayern Munich star Davies stops training due to mild inflammation of the heart
> 
> 
> BAYERN MUNICH star Alphonso Davies has been forced to stop training after a heart scare. The 21-year-old has not played for the German giants since December 17 after he tested positive for Covid-19…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's interesting about this case is Davies got the vaccine a long while ago, but came down with covid in December.  He had been playing games fine up till that point. * It's also curious to me why we're only seeing this in soccer players.*  Like why not the NBA?  They exert themselves just as much.


Reporters are dropping off the live set as well.  RIP to all!!!









						The New Normal...
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Bayern Munich star Davies stops training due to mild inflammation of the heart
> 
> 
> BAYERN MUNICH star Alphonso Davies has been forced to stop training after a heart scare. The 21-year-old has not played for the German giants since December 17 after he tested positive for Covid-19…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's interesting about this case is Davies got the vaccine a long while ago, but came down with covid in December.  He had been playing games fine up till that point.  It's also curious to me why we're only seeing this in soccer players.  Like why not the NBA?  They exert themselves just as much.


There have been a handful of cases in the nba but no where near the count of soccer.  Did not know the sample size though…maybe it’s due to there being so many more soccer players in the world than nba/college athletes. But why not, more interestingly, distance runners, of which there are a ton from cross country athletes to amateur 5kers?   There also isn’t an apparent 100% correlation  with either the vaccine or covid, happening long after vaccination or with no apparent covid infection. It might be something latent related to both (and the spike protein) or it might be something completely unrelated (eg mass doping we are unaware of). But whatever it is should be enough of a problem now that fifa should throw resources at it.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Joe Rogan echo --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of doctors petition Spotify to address Joe Rogan’s ‘history of broadcasting misinformation’ ｜ New York Daily News
> 
> 
> A collection of 270 medical professionals reportedly signed an open letter to Spotify asking the media platform to rein in Joe Rogan, its most listened to podcaster, whom they accuse of promoting junk science with regards to the COVID pandemic. Their chief complaint is aimed at a Dec. 31 episode...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nordot.app


More Rogan --









						Joe Rogan and the problem of false balance
					

This is going to be a relatively short post because I only have one simple point that I want to make. Namely, “balance” does not mean presenting conspiracy theories and nonsense alongside facts as …




					thelogicofscience.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> More Rogan --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan and the problem of false balance
> 
> 
> This is going to be a relatively short post because I only have one simple point that I want to make. Namely, “balance” does not mean presenting conspiracy theories and nonsense alongside facts as …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thelogicofscience.com


Living rent free in your head I see…..

The disappointing thing is that:
- he has been more factually accurate than our mainstream media.
- he is more fair and balanced than our mainstream media
- he was mocked by CNN for using “horse paste” despite other countries using the same medicine as a part of their treatment plans. 
- CNN full on modified a video of him by adding a yellow hue in attempt to make him look sicker while he had Covid.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Living rent free in your head I see…..
> 
> The disappointing thing is that:
> - he has been more factually accurate than our mainstream media.
> - he is more fair and balanced than our mainstream media
> - he was mocked by CNN for using “horse paste” despite other countries using the same medicine as a part of their treatment plans.
> - CNN full on modified a video of him by adding a yellow hue in attempt to make him look sicker while he had Covid.


Quoting from the article that you apparently didn't read --   “a dumb person’s idea of a smart person”


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> @dad4 looks like good news for us bay area folk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has omicron crested in the Bay Area? Sewage samples seem to suggest so
> 
> 
> Santa Clara County’s wastewater surveillance tool indicates that levels of coronavirus...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfchronicle.com


Good news, to be sure.

It’s an early indicator by a half week or so.   Boston hit wastewater peak Jan 03.   Cases didn’t peak until about Jan 07 later.

Then we have to wait for cases to fall.  South Africa is seeing a slower drop than expected.  2 week half life, more or less.  Might be more like 6 weeks down instead of three.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Quoting from the article that you apparently didn't read --   “a dumb person’s idea of a smart person”


Piss poor assumption on you end. The authors OPINION of him has ZERO relevance to my comment.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Plenty of independent brain power has gone into trying to determine origin.  Access to the server that was taken off line would do wonders.  The search for natural origin has supposedly been exhausted - according to the CCP.  There are very serious and smart people who don't peddle conspiracy theories that are not convinced this occurred naturally.  All that is being asked is unfettered access.  Which will likley not happen.


I have to focus in on some stuff but it is an interesting conversation. 

The search for natural origins is nowhere close to being exhausted.  The diversity of zoonotic C-viruses across Asian and down into Thailand has barely been touched, irrespectively of whatever the CCP says (Chinese Communist Party?). in some ways continuing to sample that would be the most useful long term thing to do, irrespective of placing blame, if there is indeed blame to be placed. Sure there are smart people working on it and the idea that it was a lab leak of some kind seems plausible.  But if you had all the access you wanted, Fauci comms (probably all squirrel but great political theater), internal NIH documents (probably some ass covering but ultimately just follow the money out and see where it gets you), assembled your digital and biological forensic team and marched into Whuhan (like the Walter Peck scene in Ghostbusters), throw in Hunter Biden's laptop for no real reason other than to make Crush happy, what would you look for?  What would the smoking gun look like?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Piss poor assumption on you end. The authors OPINION of him has ZERO relevance to my comment.


By "comment" you mean your opinions and errors?









						No evidence video color was manipulated in CNN news segment
					

CLAIM: CNN altered the color in Joe Rogan’s Instagram video to make him look sickly.  AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. An analysis of the video used by CNN in a report about talk show host Joe Rogan contracting COVID-19 found no sign that the color had been altered.




					apnews.com


----------



## espola




----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I have to focus in on some stuff but it is an interesting conversation.
> 
> The search for natural origins is nowhere close to being exhausted.  The diversity of zoonotic C-viruses across Asian and down into Thailand has barely been touched, irrespectively of whatever the CCP says (Chinese Communist Party?). in some ways continuing to sample that would be the most useful long term thing to do, irrespective of placing blame, if there is indeed blame to be placed. Sure there are smart people working on it and the idea that it was a lab leak of some kind seems plausible.  But if you had all the access you wanted, Fauci comms (probably all squirrel but great political theater), internal NIH documents (probably some ass covering but ultimately just follow the money out and see where it gets you), assembled your digital and biological forensic team and marched into Whuhan (like the Walter Peck scene in Ghostbusters), throw in Hunter Biden's laptop for no real reason other than to make Crush happy, what would you look for?  What would the smoking gun look like?


Samples and research notes that match the early cov-19 genome.  

Or, more likely, key personnell who produced no research at all for long stretches in 2018-2019, then reappear.  Like the missing 17 minutes on Nixon’s tape recorder.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> By "comment" you mean your opinions and errors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No evidence video color was manipulated in CNN news segment
> 
> 
> CLAIM: CNN altered the color in Joe Rogan’s Instagram video to make him look sickly.  AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. An analysis of the video used by CNN in a report about talk show host Joe Rogan contracting COVID-19 found no sign that the color had been altered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


Mom let you have internet again today?  Must have been a really good boy!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Oh yeah, since the media came up on the origins stuff.  In one sense I think you get what you pay for.  Tough to find people who write well, know the internal workings at NIH, and understand the biology, that can really cover something like this.  And if that is their profile they may not be broad enough for a desk at a big outfit.  But there are good freelance people, largely doing gig stuff.  Here's one from a writer who happens to be based in SoCal on the GOF stuff.









						The shifting sands of ‘gain-of-function’ research
					

The mystery of COVID’s origins has reignited a contentious debate about potentially risky studies and the fuzzy terminology that describes them.




					www.nature.com


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Living rent free in your head I see…..
> 
> The disappointing thing is that:
> - he has been more factually accurate than our mainstream media.
> - he is more fair and balanced than our mainstream media
> - he was mocked by CNN for using “horse paste” despite other countries using the same medicine as a part of their treatment plans.
> - CNN full on modified a video of him by adding a yellow hue in attempt to make him look sicker while he had Covid.


It amazes me how threatened the left feels by Rogan, he is an entertainment podcaster with interesting guests.  He's not claiming to be a journalist.  Its better than "journalists" who promote a narrative under the guise of news.

Ultimately, its just professional jealousy.  Its ironic that Espola would post that article seeing how opposed he is to whiners.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Mom let you have internet again today?  Must have been a really good boy!


That response says more about you than it does about me.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It amazes me how threatened the left feels by Rogan, he is an entertainment podcaster with interesting guests.  He's not claiming to be a journalist.  Its better than "journalists" who promote a narrative under the guise of news.
> 
> Ultimately, its just professional jealousy.  Its ironic that Espola would post that article seeing how opposed he is to whiners.


I got involved in the discussion about Rogan in response to another poster.  Several posters took offense to that.  No one has disproved my original analysis that he makes money telling lies to stir up idiots.


----------



## thirteenknots

Grace T. said:


> There have been a handful of cases in the nba but no where near the count of soccer.  Did not know the sample size though…maybe it’s due to there being so many more soccer players in the world than nba/college athletes. But why not, more interestingly, distance runners, of which there are a ton from cross country athletes to amateur 5kers?   There also isn’t an apparent 100% correlation  with either the vaccine or covid, happening long after vaccination or with no apparent covid infection. It might be something latent related to both (and the spike protein) or it might be something completely unrelated (eg mass doping we are unaware of). But whatever it is should be enough of a problem now that fifa should throw resources at it.


A soccer player has a higher/longer elevated heart rate.
NBA players have a different peak and valley elevated heart rate.

I personally feel the American sports establishment is hiding the 
TRUE effects of the deadly Covid -19 jabs on players....
Myocarditis is only one aspect of these sick so-called vaccines.

Wait til the true contents/makeup of the J&J, Glaxo/Smith/Kline, Inovio, Pfizer
are revealed and the long-term consequences are witnessed.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> I got involved in the discussion about Rogan in response to another poster.  Several posters took offense to that.  No one has disproved my original analysis that he makes money telling lies to stir up idiots.


He is an interviewer, not a " Preacher " of LIES as you are.

So, what lies does he tell then?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I got involved in the discussion about Rogan in response to another poster.  Several posters took offense to that.  No one has disproved my original analysis that he makes money telling lies to stir up idiots.


Please share the lies he tells that you are referring to….


----------



## Kicker 2.0

thirteenknots said:


> A soccer player has a higher/longer elevated heart rate.
> NBA players have a different peak and valley elevated heart rate.
> 
> I personally feel the American sports establishment is hiding the
> TRUE effects of the deadly Covid -19 jabs on players....
> Myocarditis is only one aspect of these sick so-called vaccines.
> 
> Wait til the true contents/makeup of the J&J, Glaxo/Smith/Kline, Inovio, Pfizer
> are revealed and the long-term consequences are witnessed.


To be fair, it is also a side effect of Covid and many other viruses.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> A soccer player has a higher/longer elevated heart rate.
> NBA players have a different peak and valley elevated heart rate.
> 
> I personally feel the American sports establishment is hiding the
> TRUE effects of the deadly Covid -19 jabs on players....
> Myocarditis is only one aspect of these sick so-called vaccines.
> 
> Wait til the true contents/makeup of the J&J, Glaxo/Smith/Kline, Inovio, Pfizer
> are revealed and the long-term consequences are witnessed.


Are the true contents different from what is disclosed in their patent applications?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> No one has disproved my original analysis that he makes money telling lies to stir up idiots.


Lol, I could care less… but the negative proof request is hilarious!


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Please share the lies he tells that you are referring to….


I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Where would you like to start?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Samples and research notes that match the early cov-19 genome.
> 
> Or, more likely, key personnell who produced no research at all for long stretches in 2018-2019, then reappear.  Like the missing 17 minutes on Nixon’s tape recorder.


Damn I'm procrastinating.  There is lots of flux through these types of research institutions.  But there likely will be more premanent lab heads and sort of lab grunts who keep things going, make the media, wash the glassware, etc.  Human interviews from both could be useful, what was the overall prospectus of work going on (lab heads), any sort of rumors or stories (lab minions)?  If a clear line of pursuit does not emerge from that it will likely be hard.  Searching all electronic files for sequence strings or key words would be obvious.  Raw research notes, good luck.  Samples.  I imagine somewhere Wuhan keeps a currated collection of C-virus strains but that would be pretty obvious, either to find or for somebody to cover up.  Its not that big of a place so lets say in terms of samples you are looking at, say, 30 -80°C freezers, each with five shelves, each with 5 racks, and each rack holding 12 boxes holding 96 microcentrifuge tube size samples.  Most of the boxes will be labelled, "Joe's stuff", "Mary's new project", "Meng 2018-2020" stuff like that.  Sorting through that without a target could be as hard as looking for what template viruses might have been used in nature.  And alot of it will be BL-4 level stuff, so figuring out what is in the tubes will be slow going.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That response says more about you than it does about me.


Have you really been reduced to "I'm rubber you're glue, anything you say bounces off me and sticks to you"???


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


How about with one you’ve actually heard!


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Please share the lies he tells that you are referring to….


And lets compare that vs much of the press telling us about bombshell after bombshell in the Russian Collusion narrative that all fell apart. 

Or the Nicolas Sandman story that they cheerfully reported fact free...and many have now quietly settled with him. 

It is an extensive list of lies, unsubstantiated reporting, etc.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I have to focus in on some stuff but it is an interesting conversation.
> 
> The search for natural origins is nowhere close to being exhausted.  The diversity of zoonotic C-viruses across Asian and down into Thailand has barely been touched, irrespectively of whatever the CCP says (Chinese Communist Party?). in some ways continuing to sample that would be the most useful long term thing to do, irrespective of placing blame, if there is indeed blame to be placed. Sure there are smart people working on it and the idea that it was a lab leak of some kind seems plausible.  But if you had all the access you wanted, Fauci comms (probably all squirrel but great political theater), internal NIH documents (probably some ass covering but ultimately just follow the money out and see where it gets you), assembled your digital and biological forensic team and marched into Whuhan (like the Walter Peck scene in Ghostbusters), throw in Hunter Biden's laptop for no real reason other than to make Crush happy, what would you look for?  What would the smoking gun look like?


The biden laptop is of no concern to me.    

It is an interesting discussion, one I'm not really qualified to take on, in many respects.  Zoonotic search across asia is certainly a daunting task.  Bats and Pangolins weren't present in the market, espcially that time of the year.  Of course there is going to be speculation and theory how a virus could makes its way from the far reaches of Asia to a city in China that happens to host one of the worlds most funded c-virus research labs.  There are acutally two labs in Wuhan, but we will stick with the more famous one. Makes you scratch your head a bit.  Maybe in the future someone will fess up, likely not.  The Chinese have reach and they will leverage that reach.  They are basically a closed society, able to filter what comes out through their official channels.  If you've ever done business there or interacted with their professional class, it's a very linear world. 

In the meantime, the rest of the world will continue to wring their hands with this variant, await the next variant, and hopefully transition to the reality that it's here to stay.  Call it what you want, endemic, the 5th, etc.  It's here and likley not going anywhere.  Let's quit with the theater and get on with it.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I got involved in the discussion about Rogan in response to another poster.  Several posters took offense to that.  No one has disproved my original analysis that he makes money telling lies to stir up idiots.


What are the lies he's telling?  Would you put him in the same category as the liars on MSDNC, Fox, CNN, etc? 

Or does he bring on his show people with legit backgrounds/pedigree to discuss highly hot button topics?   Have you listend to any of his podcasts?  

I'm sure many/most on the  forum don't listen to him religiously, especially when he's chatting with friends.  But you should really pay attention when he brings on an expert.  Or maybe not.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


screen shot please.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


Would you rather have Rogan silenced or would you rather have some one have the opportunity to rebut his guest assertions?

Like I said before the greatest threat to the left is an opposing opinion many of which are made in good faith.  Theyd rather silence than give the opportunity for debate.

For me free speech means its the listener's responsibility to weigh opinions and determine what is "truth".  I dont think its the speaker that has the ultimate responsibility to determine the truth.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


Im just happy to hear that you finally figured out how to google


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Like I said before the greatest threat to the left is an opposing opinion many of which are made in good faith. Theyd rather silence than give the opportunity for debate.


That is why it is so disturbing to see twitter, youtube, fb and other ban accounts/topics, etc. And what they ban tends to be in lockstep right now of what the D party and much of the press doesn't like. 

If they were doing the same to points of view to the left I would be equally as disturbed. 

Right now virtually all dialog runs through just a few sites such as the above. So them shutting down certain points of view should concern everyone.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> More Rogan --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan and the problem of false balance
> 
> 
> This is going to be a relatively short post because I only have one simple point that I want to make. Namely, “balance” does not mean presenting conspiracy theories and nonsense alongside facts as …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thelogicofscience.com


Ha...nice...he is totally living rent free in your brain (and those others brains).  I'm sure spotify is loving it.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> That is why it is so disturbing to see twitter, youtube, fb and other ban accounts/topics, etc. And what they ban tends to be in lockstep right now of what the D party and much of the press doesn't like.
> 
> If they were doing the same to points of view to the left I would be equally as disturbed.
> 
> Right now virtually all dialog runs through just a few sites such as the above. So them shutting down certain points of view should concern everyone.


Its become impossible to objectively look at the nature of the censorship and not reach your conclusions.

They hide behind the curtain of claiming misinformation.  When in reality it not so much misinformation as its just not their truth.

Im radically free speech.  Even if its completely off the charts wacky or hateful.  Id rather know who they are than have them silenced and hide in the shadows.  And while im pro free speech, I also believe the right should be exercised with responsibility


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> Ha...nice...he is totally living rent free in your brain (and those others brains).  I'm sure spotify is loving it.


I was in his head for a long time until he ignored me.  He said one man can;t make a change.  He needs big brother to watch over things, as long as he is the big brother....lol.  He will soon ignore Joe. It's called running from the TRUTH.  BTW, you will 100% care about Hunter Laptop.  It's one of the big reason we had this scam in the first place.  These families are sick dude.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Would you rather have Rogan silenced or would you rather have some one have the opportunity to rebut his guest assertions?
> 
> Like I said before the greatest threat to the left is an opposing opinion many of which are made in good faith.  Theyd rather silence than give the opportunity for debate.
> 
> For me free speech means its the listener's responsibility to weigh opinions and determine what is "truth".  I dont think its the speaker that has the ultimate responsibility to determine the truth.


I don't think censorship is the right direction either and I think the more the left pushes on it the worse it's going to get.  I know I'm fully capable to discern when Rogan is spewing BS and when he's not.  I think the question I have, one I have no answer for,  is how to reason about people believing everything someone like Alex Jones says.  I know for a fact these people exist.  I mean look at Qanon and all of that noise.  I know conspiracy theorists have existed since the beginning of time, but in these days it feels much more accessible.  Prior to the Internet it was just fringe beliefs.  As far as opening it up for debate, I just don't see that happening -- I mean look at this thread.


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> * I mean look at Qanon and all of that noise*.


Let me help you NoCalDad.  It's Q and the Anons.  Qanon is a fringe group.  Don't mix the two up.  Oh ya, their is Q+.  Military is in charge and always has been and they have a Commander in Chief.  42 states have already called up the National Guard and the WH has a big wall in front of it.  On a happy note, TGIFF!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Have you really been reduced to "I'm rubber you're glue, anything you say bounces off me and sticks to you"???


"Reduced"? I thought "raised" would be more appropriate.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think censorship is the right direction either and I think the more the left pushes on it the worse it's going to get.  I know I'm fully capable to discern when Rogan is spewing BS and when he's not.  I think the question I have, one I have no answer for,  is how to reason about people believing everything someone like Alex Jones says.  I know for a fact these people exist.  I mean look at Qanon and all of that noise.  I know conspiracy theorists have existed since the beginning of time, but in these days it feels much more accessible.  Prior to the Internet it was just fringe beliefs.  As far as opening it up for debate, I just don't see that happening -- I mean look at this thread.


That feeling you have (and I share your feelings towards extremists on the rights) is the same feeling I get from the left too.  Like when the left tries to say the price increases are just due to corporations pushing profits instead of market forces setting prices.  Or when they say the deficits can be waived away by taxing the 1 percent into oblivion.  Or when they are shutting down schools but the bars and restaurants are packed to capacity and they are trying to put N95s on little kids.  I have the same issue with those on the left that think they can waive away climate change with electric cars and renewables as I do with the climate deniers on the right.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> "Reduced"? I thought "raised" would be more appropriate.


Why do you feel so threatened by E?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That feeling you have (and I share your feelings towards extremists on the rights) is the same feeling I get from the left too.  Like when the left tries to say the price increases are just due to corporations pushing profits instead of market forces setting prices.  Or when they say the deficits can be waived away by taxing the 1 percent into oblivion.  Or when they are shutting down schools but the bars and restaurants are packed to capacity and they are trying to put N95s on little kids.  I have the same issue with those on the left that think they can waive away climate change with electric cars and renewables as I do with the climate deniers on the right.


Who is proposing taxing the 1% into oblivion?

Interesting usages of "waive".


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why do you feel so threatened by E?


Why do you chose to be lock step with him? Do you both consume the same media?  Feel free to listen to George Carlin and tell me who he is describing in todays terms.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Why do you chose to be lock step with him? Do you both consume the same media?


When you are part of the Borg Troll Collective, there really is no choice.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Wow, on an unrelated but rather shocking note, Union Pacific better add a bit more security in SoCal.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481770722271760384


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why do you feel so threatened by E?


They feel the bullet of truth right behind the eyes.


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


> Why do you chose to be lock step with him? Do you both consume the same media?  Feel free to listen to George Carlin and tell me who he is describing in todays terms.


Uhhhh....you interpret Carlin much differently than I do.   Love that guy.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That feeling you have (and I share your feelings towards extremists on the rights) is the same feeling I get from the left too.  Like when the left tries to say the price increases are just due to corporations pushing profits instead of market forces setting prices.  Or when they say the deficits can be waived away by taxing the 1 percent into oblivion.  Or when they are shutting down schools but the bars and restaurants are packed to capacity and they are trying to put N95s on little kids.  I have the same issue with those on the left that think they can waive away climate change with electric cars and renewables as I do with the climate deniers on the right.


Electric cars and renewable energy sources are only elements of attacking the real crux of the problem -- the rising concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.  The Earth has been storing away carbon for millions of years.  It is naive to think that releasing all that in the form of a heat-concentrating gas over a couple of centuries will have no undesired effects.  

And when coal hawks such as Joe Manchin preach "clean coal" they are implicitly admitting that the unbridled use of fossil fuels is a problem (and coal is the worst).


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Why do you chose to be lock step with him? Do you both consume the same media?  Feel free to listen to George Carlin and tell me who he is describing in todays terms.


"Party on, Shriners!"


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wow, on an unrelated but rather shocking note, Union Pacific better add a bit more security in SoCal.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481770722271760384


Been happening for months.  Bert and Ernie (Newsome and Garcetti) haven’t even acknowledged it is happening.

2015 - 2021
51% increase in Homeless Population 
411% increase in budget for LAHSA


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Been happening for months.  Bert and Ernie (Newsome and Garcetti) haven’t even acknowledged it is happening.
> 
> 2015 - 2021
> 51% increase in Homeless Population
> 411% increase in budget for LAHSA


It takes $11 to get $1 to a poor person.  Crazy!!!


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Been happening for months.  Bert and Ernie (Newsome and Garcetti) haven’t even acknowledged it is happening.
> 
> 2015 - 2021
> 51% increase in Homeless Population
> 411% increase in budget for LAHSA


Homelessness is a massive problem in CA right now.  I think that's something we can all agree on.


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> Uhhhh....you interpret Carlin much differently than I do.   Love that guy.


Maybe, though I think you may have more assumptions about me than I do about Carlin.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Its become impossible to objectively look at the nature of the censorship and not reach your conclusions.
> 
> They hide behind the curtain of claiming misinformation.  When in reality it not so much misinformation as its just not their truth.
> 
> Im radically free speech.  Even if its completely off the charts wacky or hateful.  Id rather know who they are than have them silenced and hide in the shadows.  And while im pro free speech, I also believe the right should be exercised with responsibility


the people yelling about misinformation, mostly legacy media don’t really care about misinformation, they care about being in control of the Information

these are the same people who believed Jussie Smollet


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Electric cars and renewable energy sources are only elements of attacking the real crux of the problem -- the rising concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.  The Earth has been storing away carbon for millions of years.  It is naive to think that releasing all that in the form of a heat-concentrating gas over a couple of centuries will have no undesired effects.
> 
> And when coal hawks such as Joe Manchin preach "clean coal" they are implicitly admitting that the unbridled use of fossil fuels is a problem (and coal is the worst).


Norcaldad: see exhibit A


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think censorship is the right direction either and I think the more the left pushes on it the worse it's going to get.  I know I'm fully capable to discern when Rogan is spewing BS and when he's not.  I think the question I have, one I have no answer for,  is how to reason about people believing everything someone like Alex Jones says.  I know for a fact these people exist.  I mean look at Qanon and all of that noise.  I know conspiracy theorists have existed since the beginning of time, but in these days it feels much more accessible.  Prior to the Internet it was just fringe beliefs.  As far as opening it up for debate, I just don't see that happening -- I mean look at this thread.


I personally wouldnt give Alex Jones a platform no more than I would Farrakahn.  We will always have the fringes on both ends, but yes the fringe koolaid is more accessible these days.

In terms of this forum, most of us agree on a substantive basis.  I.e. pro-vax but anti-goverment mandate.  We are really arguing over rhetoric and how we got to the same answer.  Of course some just like to hurl insults because they are protected by a computer screen.


----------



## watfly

Ill leave this right here.





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Ill leave this right here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Ill leave this right here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


"The power to tax involves the power to destroy" -- 

McCulloch v. Maryland (1819)​


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


> Maybe, though I think you may have more assumptions about me than I do about Carlin.


Hah - good point.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I think you mean trickle up.  Thanks Ronnie!


I would hope we would all choose Ronnies economy over Jimmies.


NorCalDad said:


> Homelessness is a massive problem in CA right now.  I think that's something we can all agree on.


This is an issue that is more appropriate to throw shade at Ronnie for.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I would hope we would all choose Ronnies economy over Jimmies.
> 
> This is an issue that is more appropriate to throw shade at Ronnie for.


Well I blame Reaganomics and Clinton's deregulation for where we are today.  Certainly Reagan had to clean up some of Carter's mess, but clearly trickle down economics is a failure.

Agree with you on your other point too.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> Well I blame Reaganomics and Clinton's deregulation for where we are today.  Certainly Reagan had to clean up some of Carter's mess, but clearly trickle down economics is a failure.
> 
> Agree with you on your other point too.


I think this is where Carlin's view on politicians is pretty spot on.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Well I blame Reaganomics and Clinton's deregulation for where we are today.  Certainly Reagan had to clean up some of Carter's mess, but clearly trickle down economics is a failure.
> 
> Agree with you on your other point too.


What specific economic policies did you disagree with?  The 1986 tax act was widely supported by the Dems.  It eliminated a lot of tax shelters and loopholes available only to the wealthy and took millions of lower income families off the tax role. While reducing taxes for everyone.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> What specific economic policies did you disagree with?  The 1986 tax act was widely supported by the Dems.  It eliminated a lot of tax shelters and loopholes available only to the wealthy and took millions of lower income families off the tax role. While reducing taxes for everyone.


I refused to pay (or even calculate) the AMT until the IRS sent me a friendly reminder every year.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

"Google It"
					

Very professional.  RELATED CONTENT ➡️Kamala's Brain Shuts Down During Interview - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Xw5g19r_E ➡️Kamala Compares January 6th to Pearl Harbor & 9/11 - https://youtu.be/cvYAkv1gGsg ➡️Kamala Unlocks 100% of Her Cere…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## baldref

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wow, on an unrelated but rather shocking note, Union Pacific better add a bit more security in SoCal.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481770722271760384


Is that Governor moonbeam's bullet train? It's done?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

baldref said:


> Is that Governor moonbeam's bullet train? It's done?


Sorry but the majority of people want to progress, move on, collaborate on a better future not do things “Again” that didn’t work for all the first time. Your self-absorbed need for exclusivity and myopic insecurity are obvious.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

baldref said:


> Is that Governor moonbeam's bullet train? It's done?


No, they appear to be the bolt-cutter trains. They get rid of the government as a middle-man in wealth redistribution so there's no way Newsome allows that to continue.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry but the majority of people want to progress, move on, collaborate on a better future not do things “Again” that didn’t work for all the first time. Your self-absorbed need for exclusivity and myopic insecurity are obvious.


your inability of being able to discern between a serious post and  one that is joking /making fun is really remarkable


----------



## Ellejustus

Let's break it down for Brandon and his followers from Pepe

t forced big pharma and big bro to "warp speed" their vaccines, which were originally supposed to be slow rolled in order to justify years of lockdowns and economic collapse (The Great Reset). Covid is a means to an end...a Trojan horse for passports and total control. Yet Omicron came on the scene at an opportune time and appears to be collapsing the required narrative that they need to justify the passport system. As Dr. Malone hinted at: If you believe in God it is as if Omicron was designed to end the pandemic. Now at this late hour with the reset appearing to fail the cabal seem to be backtracking on much and retreating. What will their next move be? Will they release something else? Moves and countermoves.
Remember that every move that [they] make only furthers the Great Awakening and solidifies their impending judgment. I remain extremely optimistic. Steadfast in my belief that NCSWIC.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

baldref said:


> Is that Governor moonbeam's bullet train? It's done?


----------



## Ellejustus

*From Doc Siegel at Foxxy News:*



*Doc Siegel:* Many people who are vaccinated, boosted and had COVID before are getting it again — and they are furious.

*EJ:*  100% true.  I would say most of my pals who voted for Joey and the gang, are furious for being lied to

*Doc Siegel:* They no longer believe the doctors

*EJ:*  100% true.  I spoke to my neighbor and they are furious

*Doc Siegal: * They know longer believe the President

*EJ:*  100% true too.  Many of my friends who voted one way are now embarrassed.  The humble one's say, "dude, high five. you were right bro."  The haughty one's are still like Espola and The Husler, grabbing @BS_straws.....lol

*Doc Siege: *Several of my patients have come to me (via televisit) feeling I let them down by pushing them to get the vaccine

*EJ:*  Doc, some people feel let down by their doctor bro and their Pastors and their teachers and their politicians.  Time to fess up man.

*Doc Siegel: * Still mad at me for telling them to get boostered too

*EJ:*  You looked like maybe you were pushing this hard on us and not for health reason, moo!!  Any kickbacks or bonuses Doc?

*Doc Siegel:* Now they find themselves sick with Omicron and everyone is mad at me

*EJ: * Karma bro.  I would mad at you too but I didnt listen at all to you or Dr. Fraud or Dr Frances and Billy boy and Jeffrey.  I believed Doctors Robert, Scott and Peter.

*Doc Siegel: * What can I tell them?

*EJ: * The TRUTH Dr. Siegel, the TRUTH

*Doc Siegel:* For one thing, I can reassure them that their shots weren’t wasted

*EJ:*  I know, they were forced out on all of us.

*Doc Siegel: * They were far less likely to get very sick with COVID after receiving the vaccine and even less so with a recent booster.

*EJ:*  BS!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Carrie, I'm so sorry about the sufferings you are under going because of having Bells's Palsy and being double jabbed.  I'm praying for you and I hope this goes a way soon. 









						DOUBLE JABBED LADY GETS BELLS PALSY AND BRAIN SWELLING
					

The very fact that in order to communicate we cannot say the words we need to in order to do so should speak volumes as to where we are. But the idiots out there do not understand the deep and disturbing ramifications of this. Source: Sixth Sense. M…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Derek Andrew McIntosh Obituary
					

January 22, 1980 - January 4, 2022, Derek Andrew McIntosh passed away on January 4, 2022 in Monticello, Minnesota. Funer...




					www.tributearchive.com
				




*Father & Son Story *​
RIP Derek.  Calvin, my thoughts and big prayers to you bro.  It's not easy to lose a father.  I see how hard it was for so many to walk away from a job and the security of income in order to say no to jab.  I had no idea how hard it was and I feel bad for getting mad at people for choosing the jabs to keep job.  This really happened you guys.  We ALL seeing the TRUTH now.  You can;t run from the TRUTH.  If I jabbed and masked up, I too could have ended up like Derek.  This was a needless death but one we must all learn from.  A son is missing his father and he's not coming back. The pressure to make a buck and pay bills makes people do things they don;t want to do, and this cost someone their life.  Super healthy and no underlying health issues, unlike all the death we were told about when this thing started.  Those deaths had at least 2.5 underlying near death health issues, like stroke and attack of the heart.  Derrick got blood clots after 6 days of the jab.  WTFU people!!!  It's insane how one side flips lies in the script and then play with the TRUTH as if they have the truth.  These folks are MASTER LIARS and learned from their leader, The Father of Lies.  Dr. Fraud is nothing compared to "Papi the Liar."   They deflect and project on others the very thing their doing.  It's a talent I guess and a gift for them.  It's the game they've been playing for thousands of years.  WE THE PEOPLE WANT THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH SO HELP US GOD!!  We want the TRUTH, wherever, however and whomever it falls on.  Abba Father and Abba Mother, it's time for the healing to begin.  I will start first.  I forgive you Espola.  I forgive you Husker Du.  I forgive you EOTL.  I forgive you US Soccer.  I forgive you Doc.  I forgive you coach.  I forgive you Team Manger.  I forgive you GDA.  I forgive you all and you all know who I mean.  No need to mention names, I just want you to know I forgive you all 100%.  We all made mistakes and we ALL need a mulligan or two or three or as many as you need.  I am 100% healed of bitterness and resentment.  Those two can mess you up.  I will let Karma finish it's job and will look to be a new me for the rest of my time on planet earth.  I did not ask to be created but I sure in the hell glad I'm alive during the greatest time ever to be alive.  This is the Big Event.  Let go of ego shadow and follow the ways of Yeshua and Christ Consciousness.  Remember, Jesus Christ was man made.  You all need to study Yeshua and learn about the Christ.  Amazing!!!  Love others as you love yourself.  If you don;t love yourself, start there first and forgive yourself.  Fess up the one's you need to confess and your soul will begin to heal.  Happy Sunday you guys and God Bless You All!!!


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry but the majority of people want to progress, move on, collaborate on a better future not do things “Again” that didn’t work for all the first time. Your self-absorbed need for exclusivity and myopic insecurity are obvious.


*the majority of pussies want to progress*

There, fixed it for you.


----------



## espola




----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> View attachment 12682


Winner or victim.


----------



## Brav520

'270 doctors’ called out Joe Rogan, but the authors of the letter and the vast majority of its signatories are not medical doctors
					

Only a handful are practicing physicians.




					dossier.substack.com


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> '270 doctors’ called out Joe Rogan, but the authors of the letter and the vast majority of its signatories are not medical doctors
> 
> 
> Only a handful are practicing physicians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dossier.substack.com


It is quite funny. More free marketing for rogan. And maybe some real life evidence of mass formation phychosis?


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> It is quite funny. More free marketing for rogan. And maybe some real life evidence of mass formation phychosis?


It’s totally what is happening particularly after throwing in an unhealthy dose of quasi religion into it. He’s a witch and needs to be burned at the stake.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> It’s totally what is happening particularly after throwing in an unhealthy dose of quasi religion into it. He’s a witch and needs to be burned at the stake.


No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


"This way to see the egress"  -- sign posted in P T Barnum's museum.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out* s*o the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.*


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out*


*These clowns doubled their $700B to $1.4T the last two years.  Guess what Husler, t signed EO bro.  All that dough will be taken away and given back to "We The People."  This is going to be epic!!! *


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


You are quite correct - happens at both ends of the candle.  At least Rogan doesn't advocate for one or the other.  Of course he has opinions, everyone does.  He presents to you information so you can make a decision.  Nice to have choices.  Funny that all of the "quacks" he's had on his show are fully vaccinated.  I haven't seen/heard most of his guests but I haven't seen where anyone has said don't get vaccinated if you are vulnerable.  Maybe I'm wrong.  This mass hysteria over Rogan is just generating more followers - people discovering that he has guests that provide value added beyond vaccine hysteria.   Spotify is grinning ear to ear.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


1. I agree he’s a provocateur. He’s so provocative he’s invited both sides of the covid debate including Gupta. He regularly invites members of both ends of the political aisles and both sides of covid policy. There are individuals from both sides who avoid him because the long format interview is a good way to look foolish, but one side avoids him more (wonder why)?
2. He’s not very bright. The rebuttal to the vaccine argument is that if omicron infects everyone eventually including the vaxxed, by boost vaccine you are raising your risk of heart issues by the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk + the no of vaccine doses times the heart risk v just the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk. A Uk study also found greater heart risk from the vaccine than natural covid in some younger groups of males particularly with moderna but the study has come under some attacks for its controls. If he were brighter he would have been able to point this out but he isn’t the brightest bulb in the barrel and that’s not his strength. 
3. that’s different from the issue of how those that disagree are treating him. The letter circulated treats him like a public Menace, not just a provocateur. You have experience in this: doesn’t everyone say to not feed the trolls?  That’s not how some are reacting:  they want him burned at the stake for challenging the covidIan faith.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> 1. I agree he’s a provocateur. He’s so provocative he’s invited both sides of the covid debate including Gupta. He regularly invites members of both ends of the political aisles and both sides of covid policy. There are individuals from both sides who avoid him because the long format interview is a good way to look foolish, but one side avoids him more (wonder why)?
> 2. He’s not very bright. The rebuttal to the vaccine argument is that if omicron infects everyone eventually including the vaxxed, by boost vaccine you are raising your risk of heart issues by the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk + the no of vaccine doses times the heart risk v just the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk. A Uk study also found greater heart risk from the vaccine than natural covid in some younger groups of males particularly with moderna but the study has come under some attacks for its controls. If he were brighter he would have been able to point this out but he isn’t the brightest bulb in the barrel and that’s not his strength.
> 3. that’s different from the issue of how those that disagree are treating him. The letter circulated treats him like a public Menace, not just a provocateur. You have experience in this: doesn’t everyone say to not feed the trolls?  That’s not how some are reacting:  they want him burned at the stake for challenging the covidIan faith.


Ahhh, the letter. How funny is that letter.  I think I saw gumby's signature.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> Ahhh, the letter. How funny is that letter.  I think I saw gumby's signature.


Hey Hey hey, now, don;t forget about Pokey's signature as well.  Someone needs to poke these liars......


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting.


You just described the current state of most of our mainstream media. He doesn't claim to be a journalist, does he?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. I agree he’s a provocateur. He’s so provocative he’s invited both sides of the covid debate including Gupta. He regularly invites members of both ends of the political aisles and both sides of covid policy. There are individuals from both sides who avoid him because the long format interview is a good way to look foolish, but one side avoids him more (wonder why)?
> 2. He’s not very bright. The rebuttal to the vaccine argument is that if omicron infects everyone eventually including the vaxxed, by boost vaccine you are raising your risk of heart issues by the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk + the no of vaccine doses times the heart risk v just the inevitable covid infection times the heart risk. A Uk study also found greater heart risk from the vaccine than natural covid in some younger groups of males particularly with moderna but the study has come under some attacks for its controls. If he were brighter he would have been able to point this out but he isn’t the brightest bulb in the barrel and that’s not his strength.
> 3. that’s different from the issue of how those that disagree are treating him. The letter circulated treats him like a public Menace, not just a provocateur. You have experience in this: doesn’t everyone say to not feed the trolls?  That’s not how some are reacting:  they want him burned at the stake for challenging the covidIan faith.


The heart conditions cited are mild and temporary.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> It’s totally what is happening particularly after throwing in an unhealthy dose of quasi religion into it. He’s a witch and needs to be burned at the stake.


What is funny is espola posted that letter by the 270 so called doctors in order to show Rogan was peddling lies. And yet the signers of that letter.....


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> *The heart conditions cited are mild and temporary.*


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> It’s totally what is happening particularly after throwing in an unhealthy dose of quasi religion into it. He’s a witch and needs to be burned at the stake.


100%.  If you applied the BITE model to these types it would come up with CULT.  Quasi is being generous.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The heart conditions cited are mild and temporary.


Yeah, tell that to the face of someone who actually has heart inflammation.  You should try standing in someone else's shoes, it might give you a different perspective.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Yeah, tell that to the face of someone who actually has heart inflammation.  You should try standing in someone else's shoes, it might give you a different perspective.


We have some heartless souls on the planet still.  These types have been around a long time and all they do is judge themselves with guilt and then judge others with shame and lies because they chose to be liars because they see the world as a big lie.  They got lied to so they lie.  Lie spreads bro faster then a virus.  Our world is a big lie and that lie will be shown by the TRUTH.  You shall see the TRUTH bro.  I love you


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yeah, tell that to the face of someone who actually has heart inflammation.  You should try standing in someone else's shoes, it might give you a different perspective.


That's not much of a rebuttal.


----------



## Ellejustus

It's time!!!


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yeah, tell that to the face of someone who actually has heart inflammation.  You should try standing in someone else's shoes, it might give you a different perspective.


Similar argument --

Air travel is the safest method of transportation, with 0.07 deaths every billion passenger-miles.

Watfly-like response -- "Try telling that to the families of the 9/11 airplanes"


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Similar argument --
> 
> Air travel is the safest method of transportation, with 0.07 deaths every billion passenger-miles.
> 
> Watfly-like response -- "Try telling that to the families of the 9/11 airplanes"


Yeah, well I would never tell the family that lost a family member in an airplane crash that "sorry Joe died, but you know air travel is really safe".   So no, your example is not remotely similar.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


Your ignorance of the subject is showing again.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> No he is just another provocateur making a buck by giving half truths and lies the same credence as fact without vetting. Quacks and snake oil salesmen have always been pointed out so the naive and uncultured can see the error in their ways. Yet some will always continue to cling to their hopes.


So what would you recommend?  Censorship of opinion speech?  Disclaimers or labeling on these shows?  If so, who would determine what qualifies as half-truths and opinion...Tipper Gore?

Keep in mind that the vaccine was sold as stopping infection and ending the pandemic by the President, some "mainstream" pundits and many in the scientific community.  So there has been some half-truths involved with it.  How should we handle that?  Is it OK to lie in the name of "caution"?

I think you're wanting to fix stupid, which I can appreciate, but I lean more to Darwin doing that than our government.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> So what would you recommend?  Censorship of opinion speech?  Disclaimers or labeling on these shows?  If so, who would determine what qualifies as half-truths and opinion...Tipper Gore?
> 
> Keep in mind that the vaccine was sold as stopping infection and ending the pandemic by the President, some "mainstream" pundits and many in the scientific community.  So there has been some half-truths involved with it.  How should we handle that?  Is it OK to lie in the name of "caution"?
> 
> I think you're wanting to fix stupid, which I can appreciate, but I lean more to Darwin doing that than our government.


The Darwin solution will eventually work, but don't try telling that to the families of those who die because of depending on it.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The Darwin solution will eventually work, but don't try telling that to the families of those who die because of depending on it.


Yeah, I won't pull a GoldenGate.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The heart conditions cited are mild and temporary.


mild and temporary , children, omicron.    see how that works?  Old = get vaccinated, healthy and young = nope. 

jury is still out on heart inflamation.  VAERS is likley undereported and data is still relatively immature.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing, maybe it does.  Risk/benefit is the answer.  Why would you boost a healthy, vaccinated  child?  Why were they vaccinated in the first place???Parent's choice (their choice to make).


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> mild and temporary , children, omicron.    see how that works?  Old = get vaccinated, healthy and young = nope.
> 
> jury is still out on heart inflamation.  VAERS is likley undereported and data is still relatively immature.  Maybe it turns out to be nothing, maybe it does.  Risk/benefit is the answer.  Why would you boost a healthy, vaccinated  child?  Why were they vaccinated in the first place???Parent's choice (their choice to make).


Watch this bro









						Covid-19 and Vaccine Observations From Pediatric Specialists | The Unity Project
					

November 30, 2021 - If you are a parent, or know of someone who is a parent, and they are considering getting the jab for their child, please watch this podcast before you come to your own decision.  Dr Robert Malone (who needs no introduction) is…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> The Darwin solution will eventually work, but don't try telling that to the families of those who die because of depending on it.


so dramatic.  What is he saying that is killing people?  The Darwin solution?  Funny...I would guess that most people who routinley listen to Rogan have the intellectual capacity to discern what he is saying.  I would also guess that the majority of his guests are vaccinated, even the "quacks".

I do love how he is in everyone's head.  Must be the highpoint of his career - a sternly worded letter written about him.


----------



## thirteenknots

Found in Washington DC on Jan 15, 2022.




Torn down the same day by a triggered " Progressive Leftist " .
Just too much TRUTH to handle.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482410875759775748


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> so dramatic.  What is he saying that is killing people?  The Darwin solution?  Funny...I would guess that most people who routinley listen to Rogan have the intellectual capacity to discern what he is saying.  I would also guess that the majority of his guests are vaccinated, even the "quacks".
> 
> I do love how he is in everyone's head.  Must be the highpoint of his career - a sternly worded letter written about him.


I was just following watfly's lead on how to frame a rebuttal.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> You are quite correct - happens at both ends of the candle.  At least Rogan doesn't advocate for one or the other.  Of course he has opinions, everyone does.  He presents to you information so you can make a decision.  Nice to have choices.  Funny that all of the "quacks" he's had on his show are fully vaccinated.  I haven't seen/heard most of his guests but I haven't seen where anyone has said don't get vaccinated if you are vulnerable.  Maybe I'm wrong.  This mass hysteria over Rogan is just generating more followers - people discovering that he has guests that provide value added beyond vaccine hysteria.   Spotify is grinning ear to ear.


“Mass hysteria”? Lol! Pointing out a con man or a snake oil salesman is hardly hysteria. There are many of those on the right, the ones who attempt such things on the left get ferreted out quickly, see Micheal Avanatti.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> So what would you recommend?  Censorship of opinion speech?  Disclaimers or labeling on these shows?  If so, who would determine what qualifies as half-truths and opinion...Tipper Gore?
> 
> Keep in mind that the vaccine was sold as stopping infection and ending the pandemic by the President, some "mainstream" pundits and many in the scientific community.  So there has been some half-truths involved with it.  How should we handle that?  Is it OK to lie in the name of "caution"?
> 
> I think you're wanting to fix stupid, which I can appreciate, but I lean more to Darwin doing that than our government.


Not suggesting a thing. Just pointing out the hypocrisy and stupidity of those citing his “revelations”.


----------



## Desert Hound

So a 4th dose doesn't really help. 









						Israeli trial, world’s first, finds 4th dose ‘not good enough’ against Omicron
					

Expert at Sheba Medical Center says jab raises COVID antibody levels, but there are ‘still a lot of infections’ among those who received it




					www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Mass hysteria”? Lol! Pointing out a con man or a snake oil salesman is hardly hysteria. There are many of those on the right, the ones who attempt such things on the left get ferreted out quickly, see Micheal Avanatti.


terrible example ,Avenatti was 86”d because of his legal issues . Many people mentioned he was a total grifter , low life from the start  , while CNN was wondering if he was a viable presidential candidate

Avenatti was not ferreted out quickly


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Mass hysteria”? Lol! Pointing out a con man or a snake oil salesman is hardly hysteria. There are many of those on the right, the ones who attempt such things on the left get ferreted out quickly, see Micheal Avanatti.


Your obsession with Rogan is quite interesting.  What exactly is he selling "from the right"?   Is he a fringy right wing kinda guy?  I thought he was: pro weed, pro choice, pro obama, pro clinton, pro more government spending on stuff for people?  Sounds pretty traditional leftie to me.  I kinda miss those traditional lefties.

I guess now he's a crazy right winger because he allows people on his show who aren't 100% advocating for mass vaccination, crazy mandates, lockdowns.?  Craziness!  To think that anyone would question government overeach is just nuts!


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not suggesting a thing. Just pointing out the hypocrisy and stupidity of those citing his “revelations”.


Weird that when others point out hypocrisy and stupidity, you claim its whining.  And in contrast to you, others are pointing out solutions. At least we all have the choice not to listen to Rogan and his guest opinions and line his pockets.   You have to track Rogan down to listen to his opinions whereas you could accidently turn on the wrong channel and listen to Joy Reid spew racist comments.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> Your obsession with Rogan is quite interesting.  What exactly is he selling "from the right"?   Is he a fringy right wing kinda guy?  I thought he was: pro weed, pro choice, pro obama, pro clinton, pro more government spending on stuff for people?  Sounds pretty traditional leftie to me.  I kinda miss those traditional lefties.
> 
> I guess now he's a crazy right winger because he allows people on his show who aren't 100% advocating for mass vaccination, crazy mandates, lockdowns.?  Craziness!  To think that anyone would question government overeach is just nuts!


----------



## Ellejustus

*Bro........

*


----------



## what-happened

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12692


I clearly remember F trump being trendy amongst the elite.  Short memories.  Both sides are dumb...dumb and dumber.  LGB seems pretty tame compared to F trump. With that said, an entire stadium chanting LGB and F Biden is pretty funny.  I can see how F trump elicited a sense of glee from the on high elite.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Yeah, tell that to the face of someone who actually has heart inflammation.  You should try standing in someone else's shoes, it might give you a different perspective.


That's not how this type rolls.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Weird that when others point out hypocrisy and stupidity, you claim its whining.  And in contrast to you, others are pointing out solutions. At least we all have the choice not to listen to Rogan and his guest opinions and line his pockets.   You have to track Rogan down to listen to his opinions whereas you could accidently turn on the wrong channel and listen to Joy Reid spew racist comments.


We all see the world through the prism of our own personal experience.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Weird that when others point out hypocrisy and stupidity, you claim its whining.  And in contrast to you, others are pointing out solutions. At least we all have the choice not to listen to Rogan and his guest opinions and line his pockets.   You have to track Rogan down to listen to his opinions whereas you could accidently turn on the wrong channel and listen to Joy Reid spew racist comments.


I also find it interesting you would characterize Joy Reid pointing out what she sees as discrepancies, hypocrisies and inconsistencies in the way people of color have been and are treated as “racist”? Again pointing things out that aren’t right isn’t some hysteria or divisive crime against humanity. . . but it may just be illuminating such.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I also find it interesting you would characterize Joy Reid pointing out what she sees as discrepancies, hypocrisies and inconsistencies in the way people of color have been and are treated as “racist”? Again pointing things out that aren’t right isn’t some hysteria or divisive crime against humanity. . . but it may just be illuminating such.


If that was what she was actually doing I would agree with you.   I believe that fighting racism with racism is not the appropriate or productive road to go down, but obviously your prism is different than mine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> If that was what she was actually doing I would agree with you.   I believe that fighting racism with racism is not the appropriate or productive road to go down, but obviously your prism is different than mine.


Those that are effective are the ones with the target on their backs. Don’t believe the hype.


----------



## Brav520

I was hacked , wait maybe I wasn’t , I just don’t remember writing this stuff 









						MSNBC's Joy Reid addresses homophobic blog post controversy
					

MSNBC's Joy Reid is facing criticism after old blog posts resurfaced that mocked homosexuality.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> I was hacked , wait maybe I wasn’t , I just don’t remember writing this stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSNBC's Joy Reid addresses homophobic blog post controversy
> 
> 
> MSNBC's Joy Reid is facing criticism after old blog posts resurfaced that mocked homosexuality.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


You heard the genius, she sees discrepancies, hypocrisies, and inconsistencies.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> If that was what she was actually doing I would agree with you.   I believe that fighting racism with racism is not the appropriate or productive road to go down, but obviously your prism is different than mine.


and so is his prison.


----------



## watfly

Speaking of whiners.









						Carville: Dems ‘whine too much,’ need to highlight accomplishments ahead of midterms
					

“Just quit being a whiny party and get out there and fight and tell people what you did, and tell people the exact truth,” James Carville said.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Speaking of whiners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carville: Dems ‘whine too much,’ need to highlight accomplishments ahead of midterms
> 
> 
> “Just quit being a whiny party and get out there and fight and tell people what you did, and tell people the exact truth,” James Carville said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com


He’s correct. They need to quit acting like the other party wants to work together for the good of the country.


----------



## Brav520

Control the presidency , control the house , control the Senate 

It’s all republicans fault we can’t get done what we want to get done

Good Luck with that messaging !


----------



## cheer4kids

espola said:


> I googled Joe Rogan's lies -- "About 25,500,000 results".  Where would you like to start?


I googled "Espola lies". "About 29,000". Is that how that works?


----------



## espola

cheer4kids said:


> I googled "Espola lies". "About 29,000". Is that how that works?


I got 30,800.  The first two pages are mention Espola Road, not me.  I didn't look any further.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I got 30,800.  The first two pages are mention Espola Road, not me.  I didn't look any further.


And chucklehead didn’t know Espola Road was even a thing.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> And chucklehead didn’t know Espola Road was even a thing.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> He’s correct. They need to quit acting like the other party wants to work together for the good of the country.


I might recommend that Dems start first with working on consensus with their own party before ramrodding the Republicans.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> And chucklehead didn’t know Espola Road was even a thing.


Espola was a handcrafted acronym for Escindido-Poway-Lakeside, indicating someone's plan of the route.  The southern end is in Poway, and the northern end is in San Diego, several miles short of Escondido.  It should be renamed Sapopo Road.

Interesting fact -- the original words are a mix of Spanish, Native American, and English.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Espola was a handcrafted acronym for Escindido-Poway-Lakeside, indicating someone's plan of the route.  The southern end is in Poway, and the northern end is in San Diego, several miles short of Escondido.  It should be renamed Sapopo Road.
> 
> Interesting fact -- the original words are a mix of Spanish, Native American, and English.


Thanks for the information.  I never put one and two and three together but it all make sense.  What is the meaning of EOTL?  Where did you come up with that one?


----------



## espola

I didn't order one, but I got email from USPS saying that a covid test kit is on the way.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I didn't order one, but I got email from USPS saying that a covid test kit is on the way.


Must be mandated for under your bridge.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I didn't order one, but I got email from USPS saying that a covid test kit is on the way.


Apple must have told the government you were within 30 ft of someone..


----------



## watfly

Holy Crap!
(I bet that this is a huge underestimate, as I know so many people that have Covid that only did home tests and were never reported)



Doesn't appear to be any correlation with deaths at this point.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Holy Crap!
> (I bet that this is a huge underestimate, as I know so many people that have Covid that only did home tests and were never reported)
> 
> View attachment 12701
> 
> Doesn't appear to be any correlation with deaths at this point.
> 
> View attachment 12702


Los Angeles positivity and cases have turned downward but the decline is moving much more slowly than the rise.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Los Angeles positivity and cases have turned downward but the decline is moving much more slowly than the rise.


That may have something to do with the proliferation of at home tests….Less cases reported.

time to stop using case rates as a mandate measure.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Holy Crap!
> (I bet that this is a huge underestimate, as I know so many people that have Covid that only did home tests and were never reported)


I agree that this is likely underestimated significantly. What is the incentive to report it? Also, if you have relatively minor symptoms, what do you stand to gain by even testing for it?

Still great news on the severity front. I'm really looking forward to not having to remember my mask - which is much more problematic for me than actually wearing it. It was pretty relaxing in Florida over the holidays.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> I agree that this is likely underestimated significantly. What is the incentive to report it? Also, if you have relatively minor symptoms, what do you stand to gain by even testing for it?
> 
> Still great news on the severity front. I'm really looking forward to not having to remember my mask - which is much more problematic for me than actually wearing it. It was pretty relaxing in Florida over the holidays.


Well, you know the answer to your own question….they need viewership


----------



## espola




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I didn't order one, but I got email from USPS saying that a covid test kit is on the way.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


>


No me gusta la gente estupida!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> No me gusta la gente estupida!


So....CNN's ratings are so bad and they are so out of touch with most of America  that they have to show  clips from another country to feel good about themselves?


----------



## Ellejustus

COVID IS NOW OVER IN THE UK
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Ellejustus

*I lot of you need to go out and eat some Humble Pie with some Crow.  It's ok to admit when you're wrong.  Boom!!!!*


----------



## Ellejustus

17 Booms.  Military Sting brothers & sisters.  Tel A Vision News and all the Actors fooled you and me.  NCSWIC and God Loves You!


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> *I lot of you need to go out and eat some Humble Pie with some Crow.  It's ok to admit when you're wrong.  Boom!!!!*
> 
> View attachment 12707


You chose Trump as your poster child for being humble and admitting things that are hard to face?

It’s been over 18 months, and he still can’t admit he lost the election.


----------



## dad4

dad4 said:


> You chose Trump as your poster child for being humble and admitting things that are hard to face?
> 
> It’s been over 18 months, and he still can’t admit he lost the election.


Make the 14 months.  Can I have whipped cream on that slice of pie?


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> You chose Trump as your poster child for being humble and admitting things that are hard to face?
> 
> It’s been over 18 months, and he still can’t admit he lost the election.


I did not choose t, the Military chose TRUMP!  Talk to those guys man, not me.  I'm just trying to put the puzzle together the last 6 years or so.  I watched it all start from your side over at Metaverse.  Best pals from grade school on your side put red lines in the sand and said, "if you voted for t or even liked one of his policies, then your guilty of being everything t ever did or said and we can't be pals anymore.  You guys got played.  I observe Holmes.  I never picked a side, go back and read my stuff.  I never vote and i dont have and (R) next to my name and never did.  I Independent and think for myself pal.  You picked a side and that's your choice dad.  Have a Gr8t day and I super appreciate you helping student learn math magic.  I learned we all have magic.  It's start with our Word.  Is your Word Impeccable?  Math dumbs people down and their is no need for that.  I helped a student with her stress yesterday ((not my dd)).  Straight A student but "F" at Math.   This poor girl is so depressed and crying all the time because of a type of math that she will never, ever, use in her life but it's causing her to want to harm herself.  I told her this:  "Math can be bullshit and you are amazing, smart and will do gr8t things after high school and dont let math bring you down ever again and make you feel stupid   Do NOT agree to that lie.  I don't know man but the school system is a big mess and we need to fix it quickly.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Make the 14 months.  Can I have whipped cream on that slice of pie?


One whip cream coming up dad.  I love you man and I know you know something is just right, right?  I got me some good Crow bro that is gnarly but will clean you out from the inside.  Home grown Crow


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> So....CNN's ratings are so bad and they are so out of touch with most of America  that they have to show  clips from another country to feel good about themselves?


It's amazing how bad their ratings have fallen.  Their biggest problem is their calendars are stuck on January 6, 2021.  Newsworthy, but not 24/7.  Trump was the gift that kept on giving for them and Biden isn't giving them anything that fits their narrative or is worthy of covering.  Cuomo and Lemon issues haven't helped.  Anderson at 26 is their highest rated show.









						Top Cable News Shows of 2021: Tucker Carlson Tonight Is No. 1 in All Measurements For First Time Ever
					

The Five was the second-most-watched on cable news for 2021. MSNBC had three shows in the top 10 among Total Viewers, while CNN had two shows in the top 10 among Adults 25-54.




					www.adweek.com
				











						Scandal-ridden CNN sees ratings dive by 90% after 2021 coverage
					

The Jeff Zucker-led cable news network averaged just 548,000 viewers during the week of Jan. 3 — a major drop from the nearly 2.7 million viewers for the same week in 2021, according to Nielsen rat…




					nypost.com


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> It's amazing how bad their ratings have fallen.  Their biggest problem is their calendars are stuck on January 6, 2021.  Newsworthy, but not 24/7.  Trump was the gift that kept on giving for them and Biden isn't giving them anything that fits their narrative or is worthy of covering.  Cuomo and Lemon issues haven't helped.  Anderson at 26 is their highest rated show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top Cable News Shows of 2021: Tucker Carlson Tonight Is No. 1 in All Measurements For First Time Ever
> 
> 
> The Five was the second-most-watched on cable news for 2021. MSNBC had three shows in the top 10 among Total Viewers, while CNN had two shows in the top 10 among Adults 25-54.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.adweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scandal-ridden CNN sees ratings dive by 90% after 2021 coverage
> 
> 
> The Jeff Zucker-led cable news network averaged just 548,000 viewers during the week of Jan. 3 — a major drop from the nearly 2.7 million viewers for the same week in 2021, according to Nielsen rat…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Arrest with the producers does not help either and I would say that is more to do it with it then all the other stuff.  The next phase in this operation will be about justice.  Karma!!!


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Make the 14 months.  Can I have whipped cream on that slice of pie?


Still living in your head rent free, I see. Yet, you're good with an old fool with dementia, quite the credibility you've got there.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Holy Crap!
> (I bet that this is a huge underestimate, as I know so many people that have Covid that only did home tests and were never reported)
> 
> View attachment 12701
> 
> Doesn't appear to be any correlation with deaths at this point.
> 
> View attachment 12702


I finally got it. It's not ideal, but I'm not dead yet.


----------



## Ellejustus

baldref said:


> I finally got it. It's not ideal, but I'm not dead yet.


I could't share this but I can now.  My dd got it two weeks ago.  Then she gave it to my wife.  This Omicron is real man and I mean that.  My wife has not really been sick with the flu or anything for over 23 years.  She is just getting better after 10 days of feeling like, "I dont feel I'm here."  She has asthma so have to be careful so she stayed home.  It's still causing her to feel weak and tired.  I did not catch this wave because I got the first wave up in Kirkland WA two years tomorrow and I got the protection.  My plane was Flight-Covid 19.  The WHOLE plane was sick I swear and then I was out for 4 days.  It felt like someone was walking on my stomach and I was laying on nails.  Hot & cold walk on feet and then the fever with chills multiplying in my head with cough and clog nose.   It actually helped me quit meat & lose 45 pounds


----------



## Kicker 2.0

baldref said:


> I finally got it. It's not ideal, but I'm not dead yet.


Same here….I’ve had worse colds.


----------



## Ellejustus

I'm going to check out the Czech Republic man....


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> It's amazing how bad their ratings have fallen.  Their biggest problem is their calendars are stuck on January 6, 2021.  Newsworthy, but not 24/7.  Trump was the gift that kept on giving for them and Biden isn't giving them anything that fits their narrative or is worthy of covering.  Cuomo and Lemon issues haven't helped.  Anderson at 26 is their highest rated show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top Cable News Shows of 2021: Tucker Carlson Tonight Is No. 1 in All Measurements For First Time Ever
> 
> 
> The Five was the second-most-watched on cable news for 2021. MSNBC had three shows in the top 10 among Total Viewers, while CNN had two shows in the top 10 among Adults 25-54.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.adweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scandal-ridden CNN sees ratings dive by 90% after 2021 coverage
> 
> 
> The Jeff Zucker-led cable news network averaged just 548,000 viewers during the week of Jan. 3 — a major drop from the nearly 2.7 million viewers for the same week in 2021, according to Nielsen rat…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


*CNN's Don Lemon rails against unvaccinated 'idiots': 'We have to start doing things for the greater good'*
*Lemon praised Australia for deporting unvaccinated tennis star Novak Djokovic*


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


Primetime on cable "news" is unwatchable for the most part.  Maddow is good if you need to take a nap, otherwise unless you enjoy someone repeating the same thing over and over again, she's not worth your time.  IMO Fox has gone downhill as a news organization with the loss of Kelly, Shepard and Chris Wallace.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> I finally got it. It's not ideal, but I'm not dead yet.


It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.

I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


I usually start with the late-night comedy bits and then google for more info on the interesting parts.  My wife has CNN or the like on all day and I can hear her cursing at the news all day.  

"Those fucking idiots!"

"What's up now?"


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


The Omicron variant is acting like it is a whole new disease and the vaccines developed for the early variants are not as effective against it.  If it is truly less virulent, that might be a prudent course of action for some.  I, however, ring two or three of the "at-risk" bells, so that's not a path I would like.

Reminds of when my mother sent us down to play with our friend who had chickenpox so we would get it early (and now I am midway through the shingles protocol).


----------



## thirteenknots

*AND JUST LIKE THAT.....POOF !!!*

*THE COVID SCAM IS OVER !*










						No More Lockdowns UK
					

⚡️BOOOOOMMMM⚡️ Doctor on non emergency helpline advises against Boosters and says they will soon be pulled due to new data coming out!




					t.me
				





I'd say that Boris Johnson and a whole lot of elites ( Especially Dr Mengle Fauci ) better
start hiding 24/7 !

Now it's time for a ginned up " War " with Russia..!


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> The Omicron variant is acting like it is a whole new disease and the vaccines developed for the early variants are not as effective against it.  If it is truly less virulent, that might be a prudent course of action for some.  I, however, ring two or three of the "at-risk" bells, so that's not a path I would like.
> 
> Reminds of when my mother sent us down to play with our friend who had chickenpox so we would get it early (and now I am midway through the shingles protocol).



OMG...the blame game.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

More clown world operations


watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


except for the fact the “powers that be” do not recognize natural immunity when it comes to the definition of “Fully Vaccinated” so if you want to go to Hawaii and you’ve had the initial “vaccine” and recently had Covid, you’ll still need to line up for yet another shot.   

Clown world!!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


NPR and NHK for me. Much less sensationalism for the sake of ratings, just news. I like how NHK gives foreign news from an outside, but involved prospective. You see stuff on NHK that would never see the light of day here.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> More clown world operations
> 
> except for the fact the “powers that be” do not recognize natural immunity when it comes to the definition of “Fully Vaccinated” so if you want to go to Hawaii and you’ve had the initial “vaccine” and recently had Covid, you’ll still need to line up for yet another shot.
> 
> Clown world!!!!


Could you steer me to who does recognize natural immunity as pertains to Covid-19 or any of its variants?


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> NPR and NHK for me. Much less sensationalism for the sake of ratings, just news. I like how NHK gives foreign news from an outside, but involved prospective. You see stuff on NHK that would never see the light of day here.











						Hokkaido town tests ice carousel in frozen lake | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News
					

Officials in a town in Hokkaido, northern Japan, have conducted a demonstration test of an ice carousel, hoping that it will be a new attraction for winter tourism.




					www3.nhk.or.jp


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Primetime on cable "news" is unwatchable for the most part.  Maddow is good if you need to take a nap, otherwise unless you enjoy someone repeating the same thing over and over again, she's not worth your time.  IMO Fox has gone downhill as a news organization with the loss of Kelly, Shepard and Chris Wallace.


Rogen News is what the pubs were like before mask mandate.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that *I just want to get it, to get it over with.*  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


Just give it to me baby!!!!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you steer me to who does recognize natural immunity as pertains to Covid-19 or any of its variants?


The NCAA, the CDC when it pertains to documentation required for passenger testing before flights... As little O rips through society, this will become more popular.

Certainly not suggesting high risk behavior to get infected, but if you do, and you haven't been vaccinated, then you can play and  fly.  Very progressive..


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


Yup.  I took a ear full at Thanksgiving grub with my vaccinated family for just saying no and then my wife was looked at with the, "shoulda got the jab" from the Jabbers when she fell ill.  However, the tide has turned.  Today, my wife is alive and well and even feeling better & stronger then before and the others who have all the jabs, are now out for the count.  Do not disturb, sick with Omicron from their text.


----------



## Ellejustus

Everyone is getting Omicron to clean out the shit that was forced on so many of my dear friends, who just wanted to keep their jobs, play for YNT, be a nurse to help others and live a normal life that was promised to them when they were born.  Nothing wrong with taking jabs, because they believed the Docs, the news, the health & spots pros, the actors and the teachers.  What a team they assembled.  Pay to play to keep one's job is wrong in soccer and is wrong in life.  Were not going to let this ever happen again team America.  Let's Make America Free Again!!!!  MAFA baby!!!


----------



## what-happened

CDC report finds prior infection provided strong protection against COVID-19 in 2021, but experts warn it's 'playing with dynamite' to get sick on purpose
					

Though vaccination was superior to prior infection during the Alpha wave, the Delta variant changed that, according to new CDC data.




					www.yahoo.com
				




I know this horse is likely dead from all of the beating.  At least the CDC is following up on studies and reporting on them. Plenty of natural and  vaccine induced immunity floating around.  Many companies are starting to shy away from mandates.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> CDC report finds prior infection provided strong protection against COVID-19 in 2021, but experts warn it's 'playing with dynamite' to get sick on purpose
> 
> 
> Though vaccination was superior to prior infection during the Alpha wave, the Delta variant changed that, according to new CDC data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know this horse is likely dead from all of the beating.  At least the CDC is following up on studies and reporting on them. Plenty of natural and  vaccine induced immunity floating around.  Many companies are starting to shy away from mandates.


True that and if your a special person, with a special heart & natural immunity, you can make bank brah.  Plus, single men with no jab or tainted blood will be in high demand for all the single ladies.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The Omicron variant is acting like it is a whole new disease and the vaccines developed for the early variants are not as effective against it.  If it is truly less virulent, that might be a prudent course of action for some.  I, however, ring two or three of the "at-risk" bells, so that's not a path I would like.
> 
> Reminds of when my mother sent us down to play with our friend who had chickenpox so we would get it early (and now I am midway through the shingles protocol).


I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and purposely get it...but it has crossed my mind.

Not so sure that the vaccine isn't any less effective against Omicron than Delta.  Seems a lot of vaccinated people prior to Xmas got Delta.  Possibly with Delta it could have just been waning immunity, but I'm skeptical .  Omicron clearly doesn't seem to care even if your boosted.

At this point, I'm struggling to see the point in getting boosted myself.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and purposely get it...but it has crossed my mind.
> 
> Not so sure that the vaccine isn't any less effective against Omicron than Delta.  Seems a lot of vaccinated people prior to Xmas got Delta.  Possibly with Delta it could have just been waning immunity, but I'm skeptical .  Omicron clearly doesn't seem to care even if your boosted.
> 
> At this point, I'm struggling to see the point in getting boosted myself.


You see, yaya!!!! I knew you would see the light.  Dr. Robert said Omicron is 100% from God and he's a scientist bro.  I love scientist who were atheist or agnostic and then one day, "boom, bam, the light goes on" and the blind scientist can now see the light.  A scientist who has his eye open to the TRUTH, is a scientist that is worth listening to.  Love you bro and welcome to the TRUTH.  This is the Great Harvest


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you steer me to who does recognize natural immunity as pertains to Covid-19 or any of its variants?


I think his complaint is that people who had a positive test last year are often not exempted from employer vaccine mandates.

I half agree.  The flip side is that natural + vax is stronger than either one alone.  If your goal is to minimize possible work outbreaks, the shot still helps.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you steer me to who does recognize natural immunity as pertains to Covid-19 or any of its variants?


The NCAA


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> I think his complaint is that people who had a positive test last year are often not exempted from employer vaccine mandates.
> 
> I half agree.  The flip side is that natural + vax is stronger than either one alone.  If your goal is to minimize possible work outbreaks, the shot still helps.


BS dad.  Natural is always the best, 100%.  Nice try.  Give me my props man.  I finally was right for once in my life.  Being told I was stupid and a moron took it's toll on me for a long time on this planet.  I no stupid and I am super smart.  I knew to go all natural.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and purposely get it...but it has crossed my mind.
> 
> Not so sure that the vaccine isn't any less effective against Omicron than Delta.  Seems a lot of vaccinated people prior to Xmas got Delta.  Possibly with Delta it could have just been waning immunity, but I'm skeptical .  Omicron clearly doesn't seem to care even if your boosted.
> 
> At this point, I'm struggling to see the point in getting boosted myself.


Many reputable studies suggest boosting has no impact, especially on omicron.  The WHO specifically has publicly stated as such.  With that said, their motives for their statement are driven by their quest for wider distribution to the have nots.  The Prizer Israeli study shows booster #4  isn't effective.

Anectodally, plenty of people getting omicron after natural immunity + vaccination.  Disease is certainly mild, but still not pleasant.  I don't know what you can really do to avoid infection at this point beyond 100% isolation.  It's also a luck thing.  My oldest has the J&J fakey, has been a part of mulitple team outbreaks in college, multiple road trips with later positive kids...on and on.. Not boosted (will not get boosted).  Gave her an antibody body test over break... zero...which really doesn't mean much given deeper immunity layers. I'm not concerned with her well being in regards to covid.  Many more issues for DDs at that age - injuries on the pitch..life...etc..  Younger DD covid positive very early on , not vaccinated.  Has survived multiple school, friend circle, team outbreaks.  Antibody test over break..zilch, nada.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you steer me to who does recognize natural immunity as pertains to Covid-19 or any of its variants?


That’s my point!  Why not?  Science seems to point in the direction that the natural immunity is better than the “vaccine” so why aren’t they recognizing it?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and purposely get it...but it has crossed my mind.
> 
> Not so sure that the vaccine isn't any less effective against Omicron than Delta.  Seems a lot of vaccinated people prior to Xmas got Delta.  Possibly with Delta it could have just been waning immunity, but I'm skeptical .  Omicron clearly doesn't seem to care even if your boosted.
> 
> At this point, I'm struggling to see the point in getting boosted myself.


Not true.  Go back to the symptomatic case rate chart from last week.  Boosted have much lower symptomatic case rates.



watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


What is the point in getting covid, to develop antibodies, to avoid getting covid?  Step one is exactly what you hope to avoid in step three.

Good news is that CA seems to have peaked.  SCC single day numbers yesterday were down by about 25% from a week ago.  Hope it continues.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I think his complaint is that people who had a positive test last year are often not exempted from employer vaccine mandates.
> 
> I half agree.  The flip side is that natural + vax is stronger than either one alone.  If your goal is to minimize possible work outbreaks, the shot still helps.


how does the vaccine stop outbreaks?  They clearly are not stopping anything.  If you are concerned for your well being and demand the highest possible form of protection (we think), then get vaxxed.  But please stop sayingthe vaccines minimze outbreaks at anyone's place of employment.  It's just not true.  And don't reference a chart with squiggly lines and, bars, graphs, etc ...Get out and talk to businesses. 

Think about how silly this sounds:  Mandate vaccines,people lose their jobs...vaccinated population gets sick, goes home...You "can't" hire unvaccinated people and your vaccianted people aren't at work because they are infected.  Craziness.  even the word infected is being overused.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s my point!  Why not?  Science seems to point in the direction that the natural immunity is better than the “vaccine” so why aren’t they recognizing it?


I agree with Dad4, the initial “vaccine” + natural immunity is better than the booster.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> how does the vaccine stop outbreaks?  They clearly are not stopping anything.  If you are concerned for your well being and demand the highest possible form of protection (we think), then get vaxxed.  But please stop sayingthe vaccines minimze outbreaks at anyone's place of employment.  It's just not true.  And don't reference a chart with squiggly lines and, bars, graphs, etc ...Get out and talk to businesses.
> 
> Think about how silly this sounds:  Mandate vaccines,people lose their jobs...vaccinated population gets sick, goes home...You "can't" hire unvaccinated people and your vaccianted people aren't at work because they are infected.  Craziness.  even the word infected is being overused.


The vax reduces outbreaks by reducing each person's probability of getting and spreading covid.

At least for SCC, vax are testing positive at about 1/4 the rate for non-vax.   75% reduction.

I know you have a "vax does nothing" mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing any data to back it up.  Seems pretty clear that the jab is reducing total numbers by quite a bit.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Not true.  Go back to the symptomatic case rate chart from last week.  Boosted have much lower symptomatic case rates.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the point in getting covid, to develop antibodies, to avoid getting covid?  Step one is exactly what you hope to avoid in step three.
> 
> Good news is that CA seems to have peaked.  SCC single day numbers yesterday were down by about 25% from a week ago.  Hope it continues.


I was thinking in terms of preventing infection not severity of symptoms.

Point of getting Covid (now)?  It would free up my schedule to get it over with.  Selfish, maybe.  Honest, 100%.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I agree with Dad4, the initial “vaccine” + natural immunity is better than the booster.


We are speaking for each other now?

I agree with Kicker 2.0 that he's going to buy the first round when LA bars stop asking for vaccine cards.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The vax reduces outbreaks by reducing each person's probability of getting and spreading covid.
> 
> At least for SCC, vax are testing positive at about 1/4 the rate for non-vax.   75% reduction.
> 
> I know you have a "vax does nothing" mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing any data to back it up.  Seems pretty clear that the jab is reducing total numbers by quite a bit.


I know you have a "vax prevents spread" mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing anything in reality to back it up.

Data doesn't always equal reality which is often a difficult concept for academics to understand.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not true.  Go back to the symptomatic case rate chart from last week.  Boosted have much lower symptomatic case rates.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the point in getting covid, to develop antibodies, to avoid getting covid?  Step one is exactly what you hope to avoid in step three.
> 
> Good news is that CA seems to have peaked.  SCC single day numbers yesterday were down by about 25% from a week ago.  Hope it continues.


You're not going to avoid getting it...the only question is when.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> You're not going to avoid getting it...the only question is when.


For us mere mortals I think you're right.  However, for Dad4, I think he's got a chance at avoiding it, unless he's worn down his immune system from worrying about it.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> We are speaking for each other now?
> 
> I agree with Kicker 2.0 that he's going to buy the first round when LA bars stop asking for vaccine cards.


I have yet to go to a bar that has asked for one……


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> I never understood how anyone could watch these talking heads (Carlson, Cuomo, Lemon - surely more from FOX, but I avoid that cesspool).  They're all so painful to watch. NPR is my go to.


The problem with NPR is that they are all to the left. The present the news from one side of the spectrum constantly. 

You don't get any nuance from them when they cover any political issues. Their stories come from a certain angle.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


Just get it and be done with it. 

Got it early on at the very beginning. Very bad flu like symptoms that lasted weeks. 

The most recent one felt off for a day or so.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I have yet to go to a bar that has asked for one……


No real surprise.  Not every rule gets enforced.  I hear it’s also theoretically illegal to cut the locks on freight cars and help yourself to the contents.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The vax reduces outbreaks by reducing each person's probability of getting and spreading covid.
> 
> At least for SCC, vax are testing positive at about 1/4 the rate for non-vax.   75% reduction.
> 
> I know you have a "*vax does nothing"* mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing any data to back it up.  Seems pretty clear that the jab is reducing total numbers by quite a bit.


Now you are putting words in my mounth.  Stark difference in prevention of transmission VS prevention of severe disease.  Cases mean nothing amongst the healthy population.   The vaccines do not prevent transmission...Plenty of data suggests this , just look around.  It's here, it's circulating, it may or may not become seasonal.   Vaccines aren't going to stop transmission.    They will help you survive infection and develop deeper, better immunity for the next time.  Maybe next time you may not even know you had it. 

The mandate gig is nearly up.  If people  continue to feel threatened, N95s are on the way.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The problem with NPR is that they are all to the left. The present the news from one side of the spectrum constantly.
> 
> You don't get any nuance from them when they cover any political issues. Their stories come from a certain angle.











						NPR (Online News) Media Bias Rating
					

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of NPR (Online News). AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.




					www.allsides.com


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I know you have a "vax prevents spread" mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing anything in reality to back it up.
> 
> Data doesn't always equal reality which is often a difficult concept for academics to understand.


I'm starting to think we have a russian troll farm active in here.  It's clear the vaccines aren't preventing spread...has been clear since late summer.  That idea alone isn't meant to be anti vax...it's just reality.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> I'm starting to think we have a russian troll farm active in here.  It's clear the vaccines aren't preventing spread...has been clear since late summer.  That idea alone isn't meant to be anti vax...it's just reality.


While Dad4 thinks the term "gaslighting" is overused, I think its appropriate in this case.


----------



## Mile High Dad

thirteenknots said:


> *AND JUST LIKE THAT.....POOF !!!
> 
> THE COVID SCAM IS OVER !*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No More Lockdowns UK
> 
> 
> ⚡️BOOOOOMMMM⚡️ Doctor on non emergency helpline advises against Boosters and says they will soon be pulled due to new data coming out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> t.me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that Boris Johnson and a whole lot of elites ( Especially Dr Mengle Fauci ) better
> start hiding 24/7 !
> 
> Now it's time for a ginned up " War " with Russia..!


Even Starbucks








						Starbucks reverses course on vaccine mandate after Supreme Court ruling
					

Starbucks said 90% of employees reported vaccination status




					www.ny1.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Mile High Dad said:


> Even Starbucks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks reverses course on vaccine mandate after Supreme Court ruling
> 
> 
> Starbucks said 90% of employees reported vaccination status
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ny1.com


Thank God.  I used to work at Bucks to become a Star some day, but the masks, and all the fear on faces, made me go home and wait this out last year or two.  Poor workers.  I feel bad for them all.  It looks like I will soon be able to go work again.  I use my smile and face to push my ideas to people.  Hiding behind a mask is impossible.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> No real surprise.  Not every rule gets enforced.  I hear it’s also theoretically illegal to cut the locks on freight cars and help yourself to the contents.


It's not private small businesses' responsibility to enforce personal health policy.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> The vax reduces outbreaks by reducing each person's probability of getting and spreading covid.
> 
> At least for SCC, vax are testing positive at about 1/4 the rate for non-vax.   75% reduction.
> 
> I know you have a "vax does nothing" mantra to chant, but I'm not seeing any data to back it up.  Seems pretty clear that the jab is reducing total numbers by quite a bit.


What? That's because most who are vaxxed and have mild symptoms don't get tested...then they go around like nothing is wrong and pass it on... for a long time there was a large group of vaxxed that really believed they couldn't get it. Then, when they got sick, all I heard was it's just a little cough or my throat is a little sore and they kept on going out and spreading it all over.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The vax reduces outbreaks by reducing each person's probability of getting and spreading covid.


Actually with the O it doesnt not stop one from getting it or spreading it. 

Right now it still seems to help reducing complications.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I think his complaint is that people who had a positive test last year are often not exempted from employer vaccine mandates.
> 
> I half agree.  The flip side is that natural + vax is stronger than either one alone.  If your goal is to minimize possible work outbreaks, the shot still helps.


If the vax doesn’t provide more protection than getting the virus naturally, why require a naturally “immunized” person to have more protection than a vaxed person? Also, how much “benefit” must society get to justify forcing someone to be vaccinated?


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> I'm starting to think we have a russian troll farm active in here.  It's clear the vaccines aren't preventing spread...has been clear since late summer.  That idea alone isn't meant to be anti vax...it's just reality.


People who are vaccinated are less likely to contract the virus than those who are unvaccinated.  On top of this, people who are vaccinated are much less likely to end up in the hospital or dead. 

I understand your coming at this from an anti-mandate perspective, but it's unclear to me how the above sentences are incorrect when there's so much data supporting those points. I will take data over anecdotes any day of the week.

Are more vaccinated people getting the big O than unvaccinated people? In our county for sure, but that's because we have an incredibly high vaccination rate and it's just a numbers game, but if you look at rates it's not even close. You are significantly more likely get covid if you're unvaccinated....of course, unless, you isolate 100%.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Mile High Dad said:


> Even Starbucks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks reverses course on vaccine mandate after Supreme Court ruling
> 
> 
> Starbucks said 90% of employees reported vaccination status
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ny1.com


I have to wonder if it’s not because they are having trouble staffing their stores. The last week or so I have been to 3 different Starbucks that closed earlier than normally posted hours. I’m thinking that my idea of mandate support and income loss being negatively correlated may be more than coincidental correlation.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> People who are vaccinated are less likely to contract the virus than those who are unvaccinated.  On top of this, people who are vaccinated are much less likely to end up in the hospital or dead.
> 
> I understand your coming at this from an anti-mandate perspective, but it's unclear to me how the above sentences are incorrect when there's so much data supporting those points. I will take data over anecdotes any day of the week.
> 
> Are more vaccinated people getting the big O than unvaccinated people? In our county for sure, but that's because we have an incredibly high vaccination rate and it's just a numbers game, but if you look at rates it's not even close. You are significantly more likely get covid if you're unvaccinated....of course, unless, you isolate 100%.


For what it's worth, I'm not making a case for mandates.  I'm making the case that the vaccine is indeed helpful.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Now you are putting words in my mounth.  Stark difference in prevention of transmission VS prevention of severe disease.  Cases mean nothing amongst the healthy population.   The vaccines do not prevent transmission...Plenty of data suggests this , just look around.  It's here, it's circulating, it may or may not become seasonal.   Vaccines aren't going to stop transmission.    They will help you survive infection and develop deeper, better immunity for the next time.  Maybe next time you may not even know you had it.
> 
> The mandate gig is nearly up.  If people  continue to feel threatened, N95s are on the way.


I don’t see how you get a 4:1 difference in positive tests without some a significant impact on infection and transmission.  Are you arguing that unvaccinated people are equally infected, but 75% less likely to get tested?

If you have an argument, make it.   If vaccinated people are equally infected and equally infectious, then why are they not testing positive at the same rate as unvaccinated people?


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> People who are vaccinated are less likely to contract the virus than those who are unvaccinated.  On top of this, people who are vaccinated are much less likely to end up in the hospital or dead.
> 
> I understand your coming at this from an anti-mandate perspective, but it's unclear to me how the above sentences are incorrect *when there's so much data supporting those points. I will take data over anecdotes any day of the week.*
> 
> Are more vaccinated people getting the big O than unvaccinated people? In our county for sure, but that's because we have an incredibly high vaccination rate and it's just a numbers game,* but if you look at rates it's not even close. You are significantly more likely get covid if you're unvaccinated....of course, unless, you isolate 100%.*


We look at this from completely different perspectives and likley are in agreement when it comes to deployment of the vaccine.  Omicron deaths remain very, very low, 91% lower than delta.  The "data" being generated by omicron points to mild disease for both unvaccinated and vaccinated.  

In the context of treating the disease, if you are high risk, get vaccinated.  Be prepared for reinfection and be prepared for a somewhat rough ride if you have comorbidities.  The term "mild" is misleading.  For clinical purposes, mild generally means you won't be hospitalized, doesn't mean it's not going to suck.  

The bottom line is that the data you are seeking to answer your questions remains forthcoming.  Data coming out of Europe suggests the opposite of what you are saying.  Everyone and their mother is running studies trying to decipher what to do next.  An example is  a report from the U.K. Health Security Agency’s (UKHSA) ending DEC 2021 that suggests the unvaccinated have the lowest rates of COVID-19 infection across all age groups over 18 years.  Not what pfizer and crew want to hear. 

It's easy to become your own echo chamber.  The science, right now, shows that omicron doesn't care.  The disease is mild in the healthy unvaccinated and the vaccinated, for the most part.  Will that change in a month or so?  Maybe.  The data coming out of SA suggests that we are on track to mirror their results.  We will see.  We are fatter and older than they are.  The UK appears to have weathered the storm.  Austrailia has chosen to let omicron ride.  We will see.  

The SARS-COV-2 story hasn't been fully told yet.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> For what it's worth, I'm not making a case for mandates.  I'm making the case that the vaccine is indeed helpful.


100% agree that vaccines have been helpful.  We would be in a much worse spot in certain settings if they had not been deployed when they were.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> What? That's because most who are vaxxed and have mild symptoms don't get tested...then they go around like nothing is wrong and pass it on... for a long time there was a large group of vaxxed that really believed they couldn't get it. Then, when they got sick, all I heard was it's just a little cough or my throat is a little sore and they kept on going out and spreading it all over.


These days, there is quite a bit of mandatory testing of people with no symptoms.  If vaccinated people were getting covid in large numbers, you’d see it in the mandatory weekly tests at schools and work.

The simpler explanation works better.  Vaccinated people get fewer positive tests because fewer of them are catching covid.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I don’t see how you get a 4:1 difference in positive tests without some a significant impact on infection and transmission.  Are you arguing that unvaccinated people are equally infected, but 75% less likely to get tested?
> 
> If you have an argument, make it.   If vaccinated people are equally infected and equally infectious, then why are they not testing positive at the same rate as unvaccinated people?


There's a ton of reasons why the positivity might be disbursed.  You really don't know how much of it is attributed to the vaccine.  For example, we know that immunity effects reduce with time, so (you always miss the time factor don't you) the immunity profile is changing over time which might get a temporary boost from the booster.  We know also the unvaccinated are more susceptible to the delta, so what portion of the positive tests are due to delta which is circulating and over what time period.  Part of it is probably a selection bias in the testing as the unvaccinated will be required in school and in jobs to test more frequently.  Part of it is the vaccinated may very well be more careful.  The truth is that the vaccinated probably do spread the virus less (most likely by having a more milder form of the disease), but it's equally true that if the R for the virus is somewhere in the neighborhood of  six or over, mandating vaccines isn't going to make a dent in community transmissions (which means from a cost/benefit point of view there's zero justification in mandating it, at least with the soft mandates you are talking about where it's perfectly acceptable for a triple boosted but symptomatic COVID infected individual to be eating indoors at a restaurant, while the uninfected not ill unvaccinated person is segregated out).


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> These days, there is quite a bit of mandatory testing of people with no symptoms.


The trend however is now moving away from that.

You have a mild variant that blows through vaxxed and unvaxxed. 

NHL for instance last night is not going to test everyone anymore. It is a waste of time and resources at this point. 

And with the virus being endemic and rather mild that is the calculation most will end up with. Some will be slower vs others to bow to reality. But bank on reduced testing as we go forward.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> These days, there is quite a bit of mandatory testing of people with no symptoms.  If vaccinated people were getting covid in large numbers, you’d see it in the mandatory weekly tests at schools and work.
> 
> The simpler explanation works better.  Vaccinated people get fewer positive tests because fewer of them are catching covid.


You can see it.  Look at the curves in the United Arab Emirates (92 percent vaxxed), Portugal (89 percent vaxxed), South Korea (87 percent vaxxed) or Gibraltar (94 percent vaxxed).   All had omicron waves.


----------



## Grace T.

Ouch the reviews both home and abroad of the Biden press conference!   Damage control in process as he seemingly gave Russia the greenlight to attack the Ukraine provided it was only a minor incursion.  White House dialing it back now saying that's not what he meant.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> We look at this from completely different perspectives and likley are in agreement when it comes to deployment of the vaccine.  Omicron deaths remain very, very low, 91% lower than delta.  The "data" being generated by omicron points to mild disease for both unvaccinated and vaccinated.
> 
> In the context of treating the disease, if you are high risk, get vaccinated.  Be prepared for reinfection and be prepared for a somewhat rough ride if you have comorbidities.  The term "mild" is misleading.  For clinical purposes, mild generally means you won't be hospitalized, doesn't mean it's not going to suck.
> 
> The bottom line is that the data you are seeking to answer your questions remains forthcoming.  Data coming out of Europe suggests the opposite of what you are saying.  Everyone and their mother is running studies trying to decipher what to do next.  An example is  a report from the U.K. Health Security Agency’s (UKHSA) ending DEC 2021 that suggests the unvaccinated have the lowest rates of COVID-19 infection across all age groups over 18 years.  Not what pfizer and crew want to hear.
> 
> It's easy to become your own echo chamber.  The science, right now, shows that omicron doesn't care.  The disease is mild in the healthy unvaccinated and the vaccinated, for the most part.  Will that change in a month or so?  Maybe.  The data coming out of SA suggests that we are on track to mirror their results.  We will see.  We are fatter and older than they are.  The UK appears to have weathered the storm.  Austrailia has chosen to let omicron ride.  We will see.
> 
> The SARS-COV-2 story hasn't been fully told yet.


When I look at Bay Area data it's pretty dang clear.  As @dad4 already pointed out we've already peaked and are on our way down.  Of course the bay area has a pretty high vaccination rate altogether.  But this is also why things are still open up here.  It's why my kids got to play indoor futsal this weekend, which, by the way was a blast.  The data seems to be pretty conclusive in our neck of the woods.


----------



## Brav520

"I don't believe the polls," Biden says

Little deja vu here


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I don’t see how you get a 4:1 difference in positive tests without some a significant impact on infection and transmission.  Are you arguing that unvaccinated people are equally infected, but 75% less likely to get tested?
> 
> If you have an argument, make it.   If vaccinated people are equally infected and equally infectious, then why are they not testing positive at the same rate as unvaccinated people?


I don't have an argument to make.  Transmission will continue to remain reasonably high, vaxxed or unvaxxed.  Throw around as many numbers as you'd like.  You crack me up.  zero covid isn't possible, was never possible.  Cases don't mean anything anymore, completely decoupled.  Your numbers game doesn't translate to the real world.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> When I look at Bay Area data it's pretty dang clear.  As @dad4 already pointed out we've already peaked and are on our way down.  Of course the bay area has a pretty high vaccination rate altogether.  But this is also why things are still open up here.  It's why my kids got to play indoor futsal this weekend, which, by the way was a blast.  The data seems to be pretty conclusive in our neck of the woods.


Congratulations - There are many reasons why the Bay area has done better than most.  Vaccination rates, good socio economic conditions, healthy population, etc.  Most areas that have this combination have fared well.  You should feel great that your circumstances are favorable. 

I've traveled the lenght of your state but I don't have a firm enough grasp of the situation to compare notes from north to south.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> When I look at Bay Area data it's pretty dang clear.  As @dad4 already pointed out we've already peaked and are on our way down.  Of course the bay area has a pretty high vaccination rate altogether.  But this is also why things are still open up here.  It's why my kids got to play indoor futsal this weekend, which, by the way was a blast.  The data seems to be pretty conclusive in our neck of the woods.


All I know is that in my neck of the woods, SD, and my sister's town, Denver, the virus is spreading like wildfire among the vaccinated and boosted.  In the last 3 weeks I probably know 20x more people that have gotten it than in the prior 18 months.  You can talk about studies and "data" all you want but my eyes and ears tell me that the vaccine is not effective, or very nominally effective, against infection.  Fortunately, protection against serious illness seems to be a different story.  We need to be honest about the actual benefits of the vaccine.  Without credibility you undermine the adoption of health policy.  You think compliance is low this pandemic?  Wait until the next.  Has anyone heard the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Congratulations - There are many reasons why the Bay area has done better than most.  Vaccination rates, good socio economic conditions, healthy population, etc.  Most areas that have this combination have fared well.  You should feel great that your circumstances are favorable.
> 
> I've traveled the lenght of your state but I don't have a firm enough grasp of the situation to compare notes from north to south.


I'll help you out. Here's a little documentary made in 2006. Since then, SoCal - well, LA specifically - has made some inroads into the lead the SF Bay Area had on them with their unrelenting commitment. To make it applicable for our present situation simply replace "drive a hybrid" with "vaccinated and boosted".


----------



## espola

espola said:


> NPR (Online News) Media Bias Rating
> 
> 
> Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of NPR (Online News). AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.allsides.com











						Static Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media
					

The current version of the official Media Bias Chart. Get a licensed copy for use in educational settings or other presentations




					adfontesmedia.com


----------



## Brav520

NPR is not the center per all sides , if it was Husker Du would not listen to it


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> All I know is that in my neck of the woods, SD, and my sister's town, Denver, the virus is spreading like wildfire among the vaccinated and boosted.  In the last 3 weeks I probably know 20x more people that have gotten it than in the prior 18 months.  You can talk about studies and "data" all you want but my eyes and ears tell me that the vaccine is not effective, or very nominally effective, against infection.  Fortunately, protection against serious illness seems to be a different story.  We need to be honest about the actual benefits of the vaccine.  Without credibility you undermine the adoption of health policy.  You think compliance is low this pandemic?  Wait until the next.  Has anyone heard the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?


That’s why you need data.  How do you compare “spreads like wildfire #1” and ”spreads like wildfire #2”?  

Without actual numbers, you’re stuck saying “both are fast, so they must be equal”.   By that logic, I drive a Formula One race car.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That’s why you need data.  How do you compare “spreads like wildfire #1” and ”spreads like wildfire #2”?
> 
> Without actual numbers, you’re stuck saying “both are fast, so they must be equal”.   By that logic, I drive a Formula One race car.


If both are fast, the assumption is that both are unrestrainable (or in your speak that the R is high enough that it can't be contained).  It's irrelevant if its a six or nine.  Both are fast so the exact speeds are irrelevant.

Or to take your car analogy, if driving over 70 miles per hour is inherently dangerous, it doesn't really matter if you are driving a formula once race car or flooring the engine on your Prius.  Both are enough to produce a stunning multicar crash.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If both are fast, the assumption is that both are unrestrainable (or in your speak that the R is high enough that it can't be contained).  It's irrelevant if its a six or nine.  Both are fast so the exact speeds are irrelevant.
> 
> Or to take your car analogy, if driving over 70 miles per hour is inherently dangerous, it doesn't really matter if you are driving a formula once race car or flooring the engine on your Prius.  Both are enough to produce a stunning multicar crash.


  It’s not a question of containment, or really a question of total case count.  It‘s a question of into how small a time you compress those cases.

To keep the car analogy, let’s not all get into a car crash the same day.  The hospital will run out of trauma surgeons.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Clown world…


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s not a question of containment, or really a question of total case count.  It‘s a question of into how small a time you compress those cases.
> 
> To keep the car analogy, let’s not all get into a car crash the same day.  The hospital will run out of trauma surgeons.


You always move the goalposts.  The United States has never had hospitals collapse or just letting patients that need care die. Yes there have been disruptions.  There are every bad flu season. The bigger strain on the health care system has been the relentlessness of the strain lasting 2 years now which was prolonged in part due to covid containment policies.

further the only thing you are doing is kicking the can down the road.Vaccine efficacy even with the boosters is declining. The chart remember ended for boosters at 10 weeks. For double doses Pfizer iirc it was already under 20.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Static Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> The current version of the official Media Bias Chart. Get a licensed copy for use in educational settings or other presentations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


Glad the fact-checking is literal, not substantive.  Wait?  That doesn’t sound right.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> It’s not a question of containment, or really a question of total case count.  It‘s a question of into how small a time you compress those cases.
> 
> To keep the car analogy, let’s not all get into a car crash the same day.  The hospital will run out of trauma surgeons.


Nothing about Omicron is Trauma surgeon worthy.

Unless everyone in a fender bender is seeking ER assistance the analogy is broken.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> These days, there is quite a bit of mandatory testing of people with no symptoms.  If vaccinated people were getting covid in large numbers, you’d see it in the mandatory weekly tests at schools and work.
> 
> The simpler explanation works better.  Vaccinated people get fewer positive tests because fewer of them are catching covid.


what? Where have you been? Mandatory testing for the unvaccinated, vaccinated rarely are tested and that just started happening. That wasn’t even happening mid December. And taking an at home test means nothing and they are tough to get. so many vaccinated people went out and passed it on when they thought they were a little sick.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> These days, there is quite a bit of mandatory testing of people with no symptoms.  If vaccinated people were getting covid in large numbers, you’d see it in the mandatory weekly tests at schools and work.
> 
> The simpler explanation works better.  Vaccinated people get fewer positive tests because fewer of them are catching covid.


what? Where have you been? Mandatory testing for the unvaccinated, vaccinated rarely are tested and that just started happening. That wasn’t even happening mid December. And taking an at home test means nothing and they are tough to get. so many vaccinated people went out and passed it on when they thought they were a little sick.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Static Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> The current version of the official Media Bias Chart. Get a licensed copy for use in educational settings or other presentations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


I like how in the very limited examples they give they almost all are to the left. And yet after doing that your siyr says they are centrist.

I always ask people who listen to NPR..

How often do you hear stories that..
- take a smaller gov position
- talk positively about lower taxes
- talk about 2nd amendment issues from the point of view as why it is good
- talk about abortion from the other side

If you look at conservative vs liberal points of view and read/watch their stories you rarely see a story that takes a conservative point of view.

Same thing with the NY Times, etc. Why people pretend these orgs are neutral belies the actual fact


----------



## Bruddah IZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483615810392367106


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Folk singer Hana Horká dies of COVID after deliberately catching virus
					

Singer’s fatal goal: to regain access to her favorite off-limits sources of entertainment. In her native Czech Republic, either proof of vaccination or a recent infection is required to visit…




					nypost.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> That’s why you need data.  How do you compare “spreads like wildfire #1” and ”spreads like wildfire #2”?
> 
> Without actual numbers, you’re stuck saying “both are fast, so they must be equal”.   By that logic, I drive a Formula One race car.


Nevermind that that is a absurd analogy, its a distinction without a difference.  The difference between a wildfire and a faster wildfire is not  meaningful in terms of the spread.  Also data is meaningless without context which you consistently fail to grasp.  

Another bad analogy. Condom A is 10% effective against pregnancy and condom B is 40% effective.  Even though condom B is 4x more effective than A, no one would recommend condom B as an appropriate option for contraception.  Thats where we are with the vaccination in terms of preventing infection.  The difference being that you cant be half pregnant whereas the vax works in terms of severity of symptoms.

So what if unvaccinated are getting infected at a faster pace than the vaccinated?  Both are getting infected at a high rate.  While vaccination might have an impact on rate it doesnt prevent the spread of the virus.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It’s not a question of containment, or really a question of total case count.  It‘s a question of into how small a time you compress those cases.
> 
> To keep the car analogy, let’s not all get into a car crash the same day.  The hospital will run out of trauma surgeons.


Fair point, but the hospitalizations dont appear to be an issue for Omicron.  Its only the overreaction that seems to be impacting access to medical care.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I don’t see how you get a 4:1 difference in positive tests without some a significant impact on infection and transmission.  Are you arguing that unvaccinated people are equally infected, but 75% less likely to get tested?
> 
> If you have an argument, make it.   If vaccinated people are equally infected and equally infectious, then why are they not testing positive at the same rate as unvaccinated people?


you don’t listen to what others are saying. They don’t test as high because they don’t test! They think they aren’t sick and keep going on with their day to day infecting others. It was made pretty clear early that if you were vaxxed you would not get Covid and could not pass it on. That was the message to the main stream and I know a LOT of people who believed that until the last few weeks. They thought they just had a cold


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Folk singer Hana Horká dies of COVID after deliberately catching virus
> 
> 
> Singer’s fatal goal: to regain access to her favorite off-limits sources of entertainment. In her native Czech Republic, either proof of vaccination or a recent infection is required to visit…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


????


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> what? Where have you been? Mandatory testing for the unvaccinated, vaccinated rarely are tested and that just started happening. That wasn’t even happening mid December. And taking an at home test means nothing and they are tough to get. so many vaccinated people went out and passed it on when they thought they were a little sick.


You have no idea what you're talking about.  Our schools required all kids in the entire county to test prior to coming back to school after the new year.  What are you smoking?  Hopefully it has CBDs in it.


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> you don’t listen to what others are saying. They don’t test as high because they don’t test! They think they aren’t sick and keep going on with their day to day infecting others. It was made pretty clear early that if you were vaxxed you would not get Covid and could not pass it on. That was the message to the main stream and I know a LOT of people who believed that until the last few weeks. They thought they just had a cold


My god, please, put the keyboard down and go for a walk.  Nobody with an ounce of intelligence ever thought the vaccine was 100% effective.  We are a fully vax'd family we've been to a restaurant in person (outdoors) two times in the last two years.  You are greatly mistaken in thinking all vax'd people thought they were invincible after getting the jabs -- that's because we understand the basics of percentages.


----------



## Desert Hound

Early Omicron Breakthroughs Show MRNA Vaccines’ Weakness
					

Booster shots with mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer and BioNTech failed to block omicron, a study revealed.




					www.bloombergquint.com


----------



## Desert Hound

_What does it tell us that the medical establishment is now daily taking positions on significant matters relating to the Chinese coronavirus that its allies in Big Tech used to censor people over—*many of which we have known the truth of since early in the pandemic*?






						Why Science™ Authorities Flip-Flopped to COVID Positions That Got People Banned Five Minutes Ago
					

'Trust the Science' has long meant 'submit to our politics of total control'




					weingarten.substack.com
				



_


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I like how in the very limited examples they give they almost all are to the left. And yet after doing that your siyr says they are centrist.
> 
> I always ask people who listen to NPR..
> 
> How often do you hear stories that..
> - take a smaller gov position
> - talk positively about lower taxes
> - talk about 2nd amendment issues from the point of view as why it is good
> - talk about abortion from the other side
> 
> If you look at conservative vs liberal points of view and read/watch their stories you rarely see a story that takes a conservative point of view.
> 
> Same thing with the NY Times, etc. Why people pretend these orgs are neutral belies the actual fact


Thank you for making your position clear.


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> I like how in the very limited examples they give they almost all are to the left. And yet after doing that your siyr says they are centrist.
> 
> I always ask people who listen to NPR..
> 
> How often do you hear stories that..
> - take a smaller gov position
> - talk positively about lower taxes
> - talk about 2nd amendment issues from the point of view as why it is good
> - talk about abortion from the other side
> 
> If you look at conservative vs liberal points of view and read/watch their stories you rarely see a story that takes a conservative point of view.
> 
> Same thing with the NY Times, etc. Why people pretend these orgs are neutral belies the actual fact


we don’t have to go back very far in the ole time machine , how about yesterday

NPR reports of the masking issue at SCOTUS

SCOTUS actually debunks it today

NPR has not retracted their story


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> you don’t listen to what others are saying. They don’t test as high because they don’t test! They think they aren’t sick and keep going on with their day to day infecting others. It was made pretty clear early that if you were vaxxed you would not get Covid and could not pass it on. That was the message to the main stream and I know a LOT of people who believed that until the last few weeks. They thought they just had a cold


Vaccinated people around here do get tested, because we can't go in to school or work if we don't.


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> My god, please, put the keyboard down and go for a walk.  Nobody with an ounce of intelligence ever thought the vaccine was 100% effective.  We are a fully vax'd family we've been to a restaurant in person (outdoors) two times in the last two years.  You are greatly mistaken in thinking all vax'd people thought they were invincible after getting the jabs -- that's because we understand the basics of percentages.


Your paranoia does more damage than covid ever would have.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Vaccinated people around here do get tested, because we can't go in to school or work if we don't.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Howard Stern ((EOTL & Cher's mom)) Says Hospitals Should Ban COVID Anti-Vaxxers: ‘You’re Going to Go Home and Die’*


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> My god, please, put the keyboard down and go for a walk.  Nobody with an ounce of intelligence ever thought the vaccine was 100% effective.  We are a fully vax'd family we've been to a restaurant in person (outdoors) two times in the last two years.  You are greatly mistaken in thinking all vax'd people thought they were invincible after getting the jabs -- that's because we understand the basics of percentages.


Unless one of your fully vaxxed family is extremely elderly or is immunocompromised you clearly don’t understand percentages.  Otherwise you would understand that to begin with this illness poised only a .4% risk of death to the population and if you are under 65 that risk was much lower.  Then you’d understand that if you are under 65 the vaccines lowered your risk of death and serious illness to that of the flu because vaccines “work”.  Then with the omicron you’d understand that the risk of death and serious illness for the vaccinated was lower than the flu, and given the variants it’s inevitable that all of us eventually get it since there’s no way we contain the variants by forced vaccinating the world at once before a new one emerges and containing all the various zoonotic reserves. But yet somehow you’ve only in the last two years, even after vaccines were available, only eaten out twice (and then only outdoors) in the last two years.  You don’t understand percentages. You in fact are one of the reasons the emergency continues because (unless you are elderly or immunocompromised or have someone to that effect in your immediate household) you are being driven by fear for two entire years of your life.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> My god, please, put the keyboard down and go for a walk.  *Nobody with an ounce of intelligence ever thought the vaccine was 100% effective.*  We are a fully vax'd family we've been to a restaurant in person (outdoors) two times in the last two years.  You are greatly mistaken in thinking all vax'd people thought they were invincible after getting the jabs -- *that's because we understand the basics of percentages.*


Let me guess, you knew the original numbers were false and that immunity would wane.  Your Bay Area saviness once again gives you superpowers.  

 They were marketed as preventers of transmission and providers of immunity.  The clinical trials were rushed and some researchers cried foul over the integrity of the data.  When talking heads on TV parroted the false effectiveness of the vaccines, pharma companies stood silent, never correcting or adjusting expectations. Did some know about the true value and effectiveness of the vaccine, of course.  Now all of a sudden "vaxxers"  always knew how good or lack of good the vaccines were going to be.  100% revisionist BS.  This is why public health officials are not trusted and why so many peoeple have tuned them out.   I highly doubt you were privy.  As the data and the science evolved, many pivoted their messaging.  Physicians and providers also pivoted their views and disease treatment evolved.  

No one is questioning your choices for your family, choices are good.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Unless one of your fully vaxxed family is extremely elderly or is immunocompromised you clearly don’t understand percentages.  Otherwise you would understand that to begin with this illness poised only a .4% risk of death to the population and if you are under 65 that risk was much lower.  Then you’d understand that if you are under 65 the vaccines lowered your risk of death and serious illness to that of the flu because vaccines “work”.  Then with the omicron you’d understand that the risk of death and serious illness for the vaccinated was lower than the flu, and given the variants it’s inevitable that all of us eventually get it since there’s no way we contain the variants by forced vaccinating the world at once before a new one emerges and containing all the various zoonotic reserves. But yet somehow you’ve only in the last two years, even after vaccines were available, only eaten out twice (and then only outdoors) in the last two years.  You don’t understand percentages. You in fact are one of the reasons the emergency continues because (unless you are elderly or immunocompromised or have someone to that effect in your immediate household) you are being driven by fear for two entire years of your life.


Stratifying the data and applying it to the real world  just wouldn't make sense, right?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Vaccinated people around here do get tested, because we can't go in to school or work if we don't.


And how many asymptomatic positives have you seen?  What are the protocols for it?  Do they stay home? Does contact tracing for an asymptomatic case automatically trigger subsequent quarantines?


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Unless one of your fully vaxxed family is extremely elderly or is immunocompromised you clearly don’t understand percentages.  Otherwise you would understand that to begin with this illness poised only a .4% risk of death to the population and if you are under 65 that risk was much lower.  Then you’d understand that if you are under 65 the vaccines lowered your risk of death and serious illness to that of the flu because vaccines “work”.  Then with the omicron you’d understand that the risk of death and serious illness for the vaccinated was lower than the flu, and given the variants it’s inevitable that all of us eventually get it since there’s no way we contain the variants by forced vaccinating the world at once before a new one emerges and containing all the various zoonotic reserves. But yet somehow you’ve only in the last two years, even after vaccines were available, only eaten out twice (and then only outdoors) in the last two years.  You don’t understand percentages. You in fact are one of the reasons the emergency continues because (unless you are elderly or immunocompromised or have someone to that effect in your immediate household) you are being driven by fear for two entire years of your life.


Fear is the virus.  If you live your life as a victim and as the judge, you will live forever in anger, hate, jealousy, pride and a life of judging others as you judge yourself.  All these emotions are produced by your fears because you live in fear.  I have no fear and that is the beginning of freedom.  Fear has everything to do with punishment.  That is hell on earth, and those who live in hell 24/7, are afraid of judgement.  Who is the judge?  Think about that Q today as we live freer everyday.  I live free so I live in heaven because their is no judge.  I fired his ass long ago.  Anyone who still has t in their head is afraid and it's just their own fear and they lash out at others because of their own fake fear.  Perfect love drives out fear!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

The more we learn about the vaxxes and the virus, the more we find we have been doing all the wrong things.
_
New data released Wednesday showed that *both vaccination and prior infection* offered strong protection against infection and hospitalization from Covid-19 during the Delta wave — *and that case and hospitalization rates were actually lower among people who had recovered from Covid-19 than among those who had been vaccinated.*_









						New data show those who recovered from Covid-19 were less likely than vaccinated to get infected during Delta wave
					

New data show those who recovered from Covid-19 were less likely than vaccinated people to get infected during the Delta wave. But the data contain caveats that stress the value of vaccination, even with prior infection, experts said.




					www.statnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Reality strikes.

The awareness of it will expand.

Live with it and move on.









						Europe considers new COVID-19 strategy: Accepting the virus
					

MADRID (AP) — When the coronavirus pandemic was first declared, Spaniards were ordered to stay home for more than three months. For weeks, they were not allowed outside even for exercise .




					apnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad talked about continued testing yesterday.

I pointed out the trend will go the other way. Less testing due to cost, limited value, etc.

Well....









						Starbucks Drops COVID Vaccine and Testing Requirements for Employees After Supreme Court Ruling
					

In the announcement, Starbucks' COO John Culver emphasized that the café continues to "believe strongly in the spirit and intent of the mandate"




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> It’s not a question of containment, or really a question of total case count.  It‘s a question of into how small a time you compress those cases.
> 
> To keep the car analogy, let’s not all get into a car crash the same day.  The hospital will run out of trauma surgeons.


All car crashes require trauma surgeons? But for the sake of entertainment, I would be more worried about running out of ER nurses than truama surgeons.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Unless one of your fully vaxxed family is extremely elderly or is immunocompromised you clearly don’t understand percentages.  Otherwise you would understand that to begin with this illness poised only a .4% risk of death to the population and if you are under 65 that risk was much lower.  Then you’d understand that if you are under 65 the vaccines lowered your risk of death and serious illness to that of the flu because vaccines “work”.  Then with the omicron you’d understand that the risk of death and serious illness for the vaccinated was lower than the flu, and given the variants it’s inevitable that all of us eventually get it since there’s no way we contain the variants by forced vaccinating the world at once before a new one emerges and containing all the various zoonotic reserves. But yet somehow you’ve only in the last two years, even after vaccines were available, only eaten out twice (and then only outdoors) in the last two years.  You don’t understand percentages. You in fact are one of the reasons the emergency continues because (unless you are elderly or immunocompromised or have someone to that effect in your immediate household) you are being driven by fear for two entire years of your life.


His understanding of percentages is just fine.

SCC has had 0.1 percent of its population die from this disease.  0.1% is a lot lower than 0.4%.  All the masks, vaccines, and outdoor dinners have done some good.   It saved the lives of around 6000 people in our county.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> The more we learn about the vaxxes and the virus, the more we find we have been doing all the wrong things.
> _
> New data released Wednesday showed that *both vaccination and prior infection* offered strong protection against infection and hospitalization from Covid-19 during the Delta wave — *and that case and hospitalization rates were actually lower among people who had recovered from Covid-19 than among those who had been vaccinated.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New data show those who recovered from Covid-19 were less likely than vaccinated to get infected during Delta wave
> 
> 
> New data show those who recovered from Covid-19 were less likely than vaccinated people to get infected during the Delta wave. But the data contain caveats that stress the value of vaccination, even with prior infection, experts said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statnews.com


The idea that "the vaccine confers better immunity than recovering from the virus" never passed the smell test. Of course, I am sure we will hear that "the science changed" if this turns out to be verified.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> dad talked about continued testing yesterday.
> 
> I pointed out the trend will go the other way. Less testing due to cost, limited value, etc.
> 
> Well....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks Drops COVID Vaccine and Testing Requirements for Employees After Supreme Court Ruling
> 
> 
> In the announcement, Starbucks' COO John Culver emphasized that the café continues to "believe strongly in the spirit and intent of the mandate"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


You missed the point.

People were arguing that the low infection rate among vaccinated people in SCC can be explained by test avoidance among the vaccinated.  But there is mandatory testing here, so we know that vaccinated people are getting tested.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> And how many asymptomatic positives have you seen?  What are the protocols for it?  Do they stay home? Does contact tracing for an asymptomatic case automatically trigger subsequent quarantines?


We see positive tests at my kids schools.  Maybe 5% of student population so far?  They stay home and come back after a week or so.  I can’t say how many were fully asymptomatic, and how many were minor.  The only severe cases I’ve heard of are unvaccinated folks.

If it’s someone you work closely with, you run an antigen test to know whether you should stay home, too.  People are also getting better about not ignoring their colds.  It’s become polite to stay home for minor sniffles.

Seems to be working.  Cases yesterday were about half of omicron peak.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> dad talked about continued testing yesterday.
> 
> I pointed out the trend will go the other way. Less testing due to cost, limited value, etc.
> 
> Well....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks Drops COVID Vaccine and Testing Requirements for Employees After Supreme Court Ruling
> 
> 
> In the announcement, Starbucks' COO John Culver emphasized that the café continues to "believe strongly in the spirit and intent of the mandate"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


You can only deny reality for so long.  At some point you have to move on.  It should have happened in Fall 2020.

You know what vaccinations, data and R values have in common?  None of them stop the spread of the virus.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> We see positive tests at my kids schools.  Maybe 5% of student population so far?  They stay home and come back after a week or so.  I can’t say how many were fully asymptomatic, and how many were minor.  The only severe cases I’ve heard of are unvaccinated folks.
> 
> If it’s someone you work closely with, you run an antigen test to know whether you should stay home, too.  People are also getting better about not ignoring their colds.  It’s become polite to stay home for minor sniffles.
> 
> Seems to be working.  Cases yesterday were about half of omicron peak.


Severe cases within the student population?  What do you consider severe?  Hospitalized or just a bad head cold?  omicron certainly stays higher.  

I certainly agree that people should stay home from their place of work if they have cold/flu symptoms.  It's not always possible but in your neck of the woods, missing a day or two from work likely won't break a budget.   

Antigen tests aren't as sensitive to omicron, for various reasons.  Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.  It's a catch 22 I suppose.  The FDA has clearly put out messaging that suggests omicron is not as detectable in antigen tests.  At the same time, they are saying take the test but be prepared for false negatives.  Quite confusing.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> You can only deny reality for so long.  At some point you have to move on.  It should have happened in Fall 2020.
> 
> *You know what vaccinations, data and R values have in common?*   - None of them stop the spread of the virus.


Let's ramp up more conspiracy and direct it towards our newest protector of human society:  Big Pharma.  Way too many doses left over, boosters driven by scary data = better profit margins.  Let's not talk about doses purchased for the U12 crowd that aren't going the way they thought they were going to go.  Those doses have to go somewhere and somwhere quick.  Emerging data doesn't support mass boosting.


----------



## Desert Hound

More reality sinking in.

Try it sometime.


_England is set to get rid of essentially all of its COVID-19 restrictions, as was announced by United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Wednesday. 

Mandatory mask-wearing on public transportation and in stores, guidelines on working from home, as well as vaccine certifications will be ended next week. Johnson said that the rule making individuals prove recent recovery from a coronavirus infection or display a vaccine certificate to attend certain large events will stop, as well. 



The Guardian reported, “The prime minister also told the Commons that the legal requirement on people with coronavirus to self-isolate would be allowed to lapse when the regulations expired on 24 March, and that date could be brought forward.”









						England To Scrap Most COVID Restrictions, Boris Johnson Announces | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com
				



_


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> It seems that its not a matter of if, but when.  Bad news is you have Covid, good news you're getting it out of the way so its not hanging over any future plans, vacations etc you may have.
> 
> I'm almost to the point that I just want to get it, to get it over with.  I'm confident that getting it is more effective than getting a booster.  How I haven't gotten it inexplicable (or maybe I have and didn't realize it).  Two families in our circle that were the most strict and sanctimonious about Covid protocols have gotten it in the last week or two.


It does take the pressure off. And everyone who doesn't hide in their basement will get it at some point.


----------



## baldref

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Same here….I’ve had worse colds.


I got it a bit worse than a cold. fever and body aches and such. And yes, I am vaccinated.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

baldref said:


> I got it a bit worse than a cold. fever and body aches and such. And yes, I am vaccinated.


I had the. For about 24 hrs, nothing 2 Tylenol couldn’t handle.  Get well!!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> We see positive tests at my kids schools.  Maybe 5% of student population so far?  They stay home and come back after a week or so.  I can’t say how many were fully asymptomatic, and how many were minor.  The only severe cases I’ve heard of are unvaccinated folks.
> 
> If it’s someone you work closely with, you run an antigen test to know whether you should stay home, too.  People are also getting better about not ignoring their colds.  It’s become polite to stay home for minor sniffles.
> 
> Seems to be working.  Cases yesterday were about half of omicron peak.


More at Home Tests = less reported cases.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

what-happened said:


> Let's ramp up more conspiracy and direct it towards our newest protector of human society:  Big Pharma.  Way too many doses left over, boosters driven by scary data = better profit margins.  Let's not talk about doses purchased for the U12 crowd that aren't going the way they thought they were going to go.  Those doses have to go somewhere and somwhere quick.  Emerging data doesn't support mass boosting.


Soon to come for the 5 and under!  Clown World!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> His understanding of percentages is just fine.
> 
> SCC has had 0.1 percent of its population die from this disease.  0.1% is a lot lower than 0.4%.  All the masks, vaccines, and outdoor dinners have done some good.   It saved the lives of around 6000 people in our county.


pre vax you maybe have an argument.  Post vaxx you don’t.  If you really think that going out to eat only twice and two years is normal then you are part of the problem not the solution. And in your selfish quest to avoid catching a cold you have inflicted untold damage on children, college students, the handicapped, and small businesses in the name of your own safety.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> You can only deny reality for so long.  At some point you have to move on.  It should have happened in Fall 2020.
> 
> You know what vaccinations, data and R values have in common?  None of them stop the spread of the virus.


All true and the teenagers lost two years of their freedom all because of adults who lied and cheated and then caused fear to fog people's brains.  I have come to terms that we live in an imperfect world and I am actually living the dreams of others before me.  I was born into peoples dreams and with those dreams, the nightmares that come with dreaming.  Were all dreamers and ready to dream bigly!!!!


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Let's ramp up more conspiracy and direct it towards our newest protector of human society:  Big Pharma.  Way too many doses left over, boosters driven by scary data = better profit margins.  Let's not talk about doses purchased for the U12 crowd that aren't going the way they thought they were going to go.  Those doses have to go somewhere and somwhere quick.  Emerging data doesn't support mass boosting.


On the freeways today in Los Angeles the signs all read “stay safe.  Get boosted and wear an n95”

a more futile message I have yet to see.  Stay safe…you are unless you are elderly or immune compromised or over 30 and at this late date still immunonaive.  Get boosted….unless you are over 65 it probably does nothing and best case kicks the can down the road for when you’ll get sick by a few months. Wear an 95….top prevent a bad cold?  No thanks. Seriously what’s wrong with these authorities still clinging to covid 0 in the face of all this. What kind of asinine stupid message is this to put on the freeways.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> On the freeways today in Los Angeles the signs all read “stay safe.  Get boosted and wear an n95”
> 
> a more futile message I have yet to see.  Stay safe…you are unless you are elderly or immune compromised or over 30 and at this late date still immunonaive.  Get boosted….unless you are over 65 it probably does nothing and best case kicks the can down the road for when you’ll get sick by a few months. Wear an 95….top prevent a bad cold?  No thanks. Seriously what’s wrong with these authorities still clinging to covid 0 in the face of all this. What kind of asinine stupid message is this to put on the freeways.


Radio SoCal says the same thing too.


----------



## Desert Hound

Powerful public service message.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Two Chula Vista Hospitals Declare ‘Internal Disaster', Overwhelmed With Patients
					

Two Chula Vista hospitals were so overwhelmed with patients Tuesday, they declared an internal disaster status, meaning they could no longer take more patients.




					www.nbcsandiego.com


----------



## Grace T.

Amen to these.....








						Have San Francisco policies done more harm to children than COVID?
					

San Francisco parent Laura Fagan argues that few are acknowledging the impact of COVID-19...




					www.sfgate.com
				












						The Cult of Masked Schoolchildren
					

History will not look kindly on our evidence-free decision to make kids suffer most




					www.tabletmag.com


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> People were arguing that the low infection rate among vaccinated people in SCC can be explained by test avoidance among the vaccinated.  But there is mandatory testing here, so we know that vaccinated people are getting tested.


You live in some sort of odd reality.  You know that many people, that you can say without a doubt, there was no test avoidance? You think workers in certain low income areas had mandatory testing weekly?  Almost all the jobs I know, and at were I work with over 5000 employees, if you were vaccinated you didn't have to test.  So I am not sure where you get mandatory testing.  Either you have a very small circle of friends or you don't get out much.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Two Chula Vista Hospitals Declare ‘Internal Disaster', Overwhelmed With Patients
> 
> 
> Two Chula Vista hospitals were so overwhelmed with patients Tuesday, they declared an internal disaster status, meaning they could no longer take more patients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcsandiego.com


It's there own fault for firing nurses that were not vaccinated, now there is a staffing shortage.  They even mention in the article that they had more Covid patients last year


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Two Chula Vista Hospitals Declare ‘Internal Disaster', Overwhelmed With Patients
> 
> 
> Two Chula Vista hospitals were so overwhelmed with patients Tuesday, they declared an internal disaster status, meaning they could no longer take more patients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcsandiego.com


Same thing happened in the first wave.  It's patients from Mexico.  Although this time combined with staffing shortages.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Amen to these.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have San Francisco policies done more harm to children than COVID?
> 
> 
> San Francisco parent Laura Fagan argues that few are acknowledging the impact of COVID-19...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Cult of Masked Schoolchildren
> 
> 
> History will not look kindly on our evidence-free decision to make kids suffer most
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tabletmag.com


Team Fear with another "L".


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Team Fear with another "L".


They have lots of Ls. 

Pretty much everything they advocated for has come crashing down. 

There are fewer and fewer true believers around. A few still hang out here.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> You live in some sort of odd reality.  You know that many people, that you can say without a doubt, there was no test avoidance? You think workers in certain low income areas had mandatory testing weekly?  Almost all the jobs I know, and at were I work with over 5000 employees, if you were vaccinated you didn't have to test.  So I am not sure where you get mandatory testing.  Either you have a very small circle of friends or you don't get out much.


Not saying no test avoidance.  Just saying that test avoidance cannot possibly explain the fact that unvaccinated people are 4X as likely to test positive in SCC.   You’d need 75% of vaccinated people to skip the test.  Hard for your family to skip the test when your kid can’t go to school without one.

CDC tracks things like “test positivity rate by vaccination status”.   If you’re actually curious, you can read how the real numbers work.






						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov
				




If you’re just looking for an excuse to claim vaccines don’t work, I‘m sure Joe Rogan has a guest who will tell you what you want to hear.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Unless one of your fully vaxxed family is extremely elderly or is immunocompromised you clearly don’t understand percentages.  Otherwise you would understand that to begin with this illness poised only a .4% risk of death to the population and if you are under 65 that risk was much lower.  Then you’d understand that if you are under 65 the vaccines lowered your risk of death and serious illness to that of the flu because vaccines “work”.  Then with the omicron you’d understand that the risk of death and serious illness for the vaccinated was lower than the flu, and given the variants it’s inevitable that all of us eventually get it since there’s no way we contain the variants by forced vaccinating the world at once before a new one emerges and containing all the various zoonotic reserves. But yet somehow you’ve only in the last two years, even after vaccines were available, only eaten out twice (and then only outdoors) in the last two years.  You don’t understand percentages. You in fact are one of the reasons the emergency continues because (unless you are elderly or immunocompromised or have someone to that effect in your immediate household) you are being driven by fear for two entire years of your life.


Hahahah,  yeah @Grace T., I'm part of the problem.  Yet, I live in a county where everything is open, our teachers aren't protesting, our grocery stores are fully stocked, high school sports are still on, our hospitals aren't impacted, and my kids can play indoor sports.  This is apparently, in stark contrast with what you're seeing based on many of your recent posts.  Keep trying. 

The point I was making about not going to restaurants was that vaccinated people didn't get the jab(s) and just galavant around town as implied by the poster I was responding to. In our highly aware neck of the woods people mostly did the right thing. Which is a BIG reason why the Bay Area hasn't been as impacted as other areas.

During the pre-vaccine era of covid when everyone was trying to figure things out we locked down.  Suffice it to say, we really didn't need a mandate to do that.  We still supported our local restaurants when they opened by getting take-out (still tipping 20-30%).  We actually found take-out brought us closer as a family.  Post vaccine we did go to restaurants a couple of times only to find the experience wasn't as intimate as what we had been doing.  Then delta hit and we decided to take it easy again.  Ultimately we prioritized the things that were important to our family.  We focused on outdoor activities and spending time with close friends and family.  This whole experience has brought our family closer and honestly we're pretty dang happy.  

But continue on @Grace T. with your doom and gloom and arguing whatever it is that you're arguing.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Not saying no test avoidance.  Just saying that test avoidance cannot possibly explain the fact that unvaccinated people are 4X as likely to test positive in SCC.   You’d need 75% of vaccinated people to skip the test.  Hard for your family to skip the test when your kid can’t go to school without one.
> 
> CDC tracks things like “test positivity rate by vaccination status”.   If you’re actually curious, you can read how the real numbers work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you’re just looking for an excuse to claim vaccines don’t work, I‘m sure Joe Rogan has a guest who will tell you what you want to hear.



ok, if I’m reading this right they are only tracking this when the test is done in a hospital setting?

I would think the vast majority of testing is being done outside hospitalization.

I have never been asked about vaccination status at a testing site , and I just got back from having to test my family of 4


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> pre vax you maybe have an argument.  Post vaxx you don’t.  If you really think that going out to eat only twice and two years is normal then you are part of the problem not the solution. And in your selfish quest to avoid catching a cold you have inflicted untold damage on children, college students, the handicapped, and small businesses in the name of your own safety.


Actually, the difference between team virus and team panic looked more moderate pre-vax.   The “masks are stupid” counties were only dying at 2-3 times the rate of the rest of us.

Post vax, it’s night and day.  Blue cities with 80% vax rates had pretty low deaths from delta.  Red counties with 40% vax rates got hammered.   The death ratio of unvax/vax went above 10-1.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Not saying no test avoidance.  Just saying that test avoidance cannot possibly explain the fact that unvaccinated people are 4X as likely to test positive in SCC.   You’d need 75% of vaccinated people to skip the test.  Hard for your family to skip the test when your kid can’t go to school without one.
> 
> CDC tracks things like “test positivity rate by vaccination status”.   If you’re actually curious, you can read how the real numbers work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you’re just looking for an excuse to claim vaccines don’t work, I‘m sure Joe Rogan has a guest who will tell you what you want to hear.


You mean like Dr Gupta?


----------



## watfly

On behalf of San Diego I would like recognize the Bay Area contributions to preventing the spread of the virus with the "1st Annual Covid Awesomeness Award".  Everything is Awesome!

(Please pay no attention to the rampant crime and the mass homelessness in the Bay Area, they've done really awesome with Covid.  Just watch your step when you're in the City).


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You mean like Dr Gupta?


Rogan‘s guests include both those who know what they are talking about, and those who do not.

The trouble is that most people can’t tell the difference.  This didn’t matter back when Cronkite’s staff would filter out the trash.  Rogan’s show doesn’t do that.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/f88ksep


there’s a lot of toilet research on this board.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> On behalf of San Diego I would like recognize the Bay Area contributions to preventing the spread of the virus with the "1st Annual Covid Awesomeness Award".  Everything is Awesome!
> 
> (Please pay no attention to the rampant crime and the mass homelessness in the Bay Area, they've done really awesome with Covid.  Just watch your step when you're in the City).


The best part about an N95 is that it makes it harder to smell the urine on the sidewalk.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Hahahah,  yeah @Grace T., I'm part of the problem.  Yet, I live in a county where everything is open, our teachers aren't protesting, our grocery stores are fully stocked, high school sports are still on, our hospitals aren't impacted, and my kids can play indoor sports.  This is apparently, in stark contrast with what you're seeing based on many of your recent posts.  Keep trying.
> 
> The point I was making about not going to restaurants was that vaccinated people didn't get the jab(s) and just galavant around town as implied by the poster I was responding to. In our highly aware neck of the woods people mostly did the right thing. Which is a BIG reason why the Bay Area hasn't been as impacted as other areas.
> 
> During the pre-vaccine era of covid when everyone was trying to figure things out we locked down.  Suffice it to say, we really didn't need a mandate to do that.  We still supported our local restaurants when they opened by getting take-out (still tipping 20-30%).  We actually found take-out brought us closer as a family.  Post vaccine we did go to restaurants a couple of times only to find the experience wasn't as intimate as what we had been doing.  Then delta hit and we decided to take it easy again.  Ultimately we prioritized the things that were important to our family.  We focused on outdoor activities and spending time with close friends and family.  This whole experience has brought our family closer and honestly we're pretty dang happy.
> 
> But continue on @Grace T. with your doom and gloom and arguing whatever it is that you're arguing.


1. Limiting going out to eat to two times in two years, including postvaxx, is not "normal".  You are fundamentally altering life (and expecting others to behave similarly and treat that as normal) out of fear of catching a cold.
2. The blue areas we've been complaining about wouldn't be in that state if it wasn't for COVID restrictions.  The COVID restrictions are the main problem.  See Virginia and the changes going on there for an example.
3.  With respect to the take out, you do realize that other workers that couldn't work remotely had to make that takeout in cramped conditions that put them at risk and rendered the lockdowns meaningless while you were safe at home?
4. The kids are not all right, particularly in blue areas.  See the articles I posted for a summary why.


----------



## Soccermaverick




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The best part about an N95 is that it makes it harder to smell the urine on the sidewalk.


Why doesn't it surprise me that you are wearing an N95 outdoors now?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The best part about an N95 is that it makes it harder to smell the urine on the sidewalk.


It's not the smell of urine that I'm most worried about.

You would be proud of me, I wore a KN95 on my flights last week.


----------



## Brav520

Soccermaverick said:


> View attachment 12724


not sure the point this meme is trying to make

is it it that had the government been in total control of healthcare we would be in a better position regarding Covid ?


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccermaverick said:


> View attachment 12724


Take your health to "wellness" and stop treating the "illness."  People are ill because of their health and the choices they made and now their not well mentally.  The people I see wearing mask are not well.  Over weight, scared and full of fear.  It's clear for all to see.


----------



## Soccermaverick

https://i.redd.it/qriyx845q6551.jpg


----------



## Desert Hound

Reality is about to hit Canada/US as it relates to truckers and cross border shipments.

They will shortly relax the rule is my guess. Bowing again to reality.









						Why Supply Chain Issues Will Likely Get Worse
					






					townhall.com


----------



## Soccermaverick




----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Not saying no test avoidance.  Just saying that test avoidance cannot possibly explain the fact that unvaccinated people are 4X as likely to test positive in SCC.   You’d need 75% of vaccinated people to skip the test.  Hard for your family to skip the test when your kid can’t go to school without one.
> 
> CDC tracks things like “test positivity rate by vaccination status”.   If you’re actually curious, you can read how the real numbers work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you’re just looking for an excuse to claim vaccines don’t work, I‘m sure Joe Rogan has a guest who will tell you what you want to hear.


Its actually about 3xs, but the amount of cases has always been a question mark to me, so I don't really even pay attention to that number.  And @Brav520 makes an excellent point about who is checking on vaxx status at testing sites.  If you think they are cross referencing those, you are crazy.  When I tested positive they told me they couldn't tell me what variant it was because there were too many test coming in at the time so they were checking for variants. If they are only checking vaxx status at the hospitals where mostly unvaccinated people are, then there you go.   

Not saying the vaxx doesn't work, never have said that.  I only wish vaccinated and the ridiculous President would stop trying to blame it on the unvaccinated. A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated??? Really, that's Ridiculous!!! So many vaccinated act like they are above it and have nothing to do with what is going on, when in actuality they are probably the most likely reason for the current spike!!!


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/s7yio6


----------



## Desert Hound

I will highlight this again. 

_“*Before the Delta variant, Covid-19 vaccination resulted in better protection* against a subsequent infection than surviving a previous infection,” CDC official Benjamin Silk said. “When looking at the summer and fall of 2021, *when Delta became predominant in this country, however, surviving a previous infection now provided greater protection.”*_



			https://archive.fo/OHS9q#selection-4123.0-4123.346


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> My god, please, put the keyboard down and go for a walk.  Nobody with an ounce of intelligence ever thought the vaccine was 100% effective.  We are a fully vax'd family we've been to a restaurant in person (outdoors) two times in the last two years.  You are greatly mistaken in thinking all vax'd people thought they were invincible after getting the jabs -- that's because we understand the basics of percentages.


Clearly you do not talk with, or hang out with, many other families or friends seeing that you have been only out 2 times in the past 2 years.  That is very sad and you write that as if you are proud.  I never said all vax'd, but I know a lot that felt they couldn't get covid since they had been, and the numbers prove it.  Since your circle seems very small, I am telling you that there were a lot of people who thought they were invincible after getting the jab.  If you look at the age group of people getting infected you can see it is those 30 and under, who by the way generally have the attitude of being invincible, but I am pretty sure you arent around people that age.  

Wow. I am certain that you have no service members in any part of your family history, because that is not acceptable for all that those before us went through!


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> Its actually about 3xs, but the amount of cases has always been a question mark to me, so I don't really even pay attention to that number.  And @Brav520 makes an excellent point about who is checking on vaxx status at testing sites.  If you think they are cross referencing those, you are crazy.  When I tested positive they told me they couldn't tell me what variant it was because there were too many test coming in at the time so they were checking for variants. If they are only checking vaxx status at the hospitals where mostly unvaccinated people are, then there you go.
> 
> Not saying the vaxx doesn't work, never have said that.  I only wish vaccinated and the ridiculous President would stop trying to blame it on the unvaccinated. A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated??? Really, that's Ridiculous!!! So many vaccinated act like they are above it and have nothing to do with what is going on, when in actuality they are probably the most likely reason for the current spike!!!


Have you heard of:





__





						California Immunization Registry
					






					cairweb.org
				




Get ready for your heads to explode as you realize Big Gov knows if you're vaccinated or not.


----------



## Soccermaverick

https://i0.wp.com/i.imgflip.com/3qiwxb.gif


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> Clearly you do not talk with, or hang out with, many other families or friends seeing that you have been only out 2 times in the past 2 years.  That is very sad and you write that as if you are proud.  I never said all vax'd, but I know a lot that felt they couldn't get covid since they had been, and the numbers prove it.  Since your circle seems very small, I am telling you that there were a lot of people who thought they were invincible after getting the jab.  If you look at the age group of people getting infected you can see it is those 30 and under, who by the way generally have the attitude of being invincible, but I am pretty sure you arent around people that age.
> 
> Wow. I am certain that you have no service members in any part of your family history, because that is not acceptable for all that those before us went through!


Yeah, you're right, I've only been out of the house 2 times in the last 2 years.  Your reading comprehension is bar none.  

I do not know any of these "invincible" vax'd people you speak of.  You sure your not confused with all the Richards and Karens going into stores unmasked and denying the virus even exists?  

What numbers prove what? What are you even talking about?


----------



## Ellejustus

Everyone, we ALL got played and some cheat & lie when they play.  Here are the Facts:   All will die.  Some die with Covid or from Covid.  Some vax die and some non vax die.  The winter of death is here.  We all have freedom to choose to continue booster or start first jab.  It's a choice and should never have been mandated.  We ALL know the TRUTH now because of the two year experiment and stealing of our kids lives, is now showing the data TRUTH.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/UuI1iih


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/mv9ijtp


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/Ph4znmX


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah, you're right, I've only been out of the house 2 times in the last 2 years.  Your reading comprehension is bar none.
> 
> I do not know any of these "invincible" vax'd people you speak of.  You sure your not confused with all the Richards and Karens going into stores unmasked and denying the virus even exists?
> 
> What numbers prove what? What are you even talking about?


Sorry, I didn'r know I needed to repeat word for word what you exactly said, since you were the one who said it.  So just to clarify, out of the house to "dinner" 2 times.  HAHAHA, wow! You're a sharp one! 

I realize you do not know any of these people, as I have said, I believe you live in a very small bubble and probably have a very small circle of friends.  The numbers of covid cases that have increased in the last month can show you that vaccinated people are a big reason why there is such a spike.  I didn't realize I needed to spell that out for you as well. Your reading comprehension is bar none!


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/CorvXtU


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Not saying no test avoidance.  Just saying that test avoidance cannot possibly explain the fact that unvaccinated people are 4X as likely to test positive in SCC.   You’d need 75% of vaccinated people to skip the test.  Hard for your family to skip the test when your kid can’t go to school without one.
> 
> CDC tracks things like “test positivity rate by vaccination status”.   If you’re actually curious, you can read how the real numbers work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you’re just looking for an excuse to claim vaccines don’t work, I‘m sure Joe Rogan has a guest who will tell you what you want to hear.


I'm sure they are able to clearly identify those who are vaccinated and not vaccinated when they have trouble even identifying who the patient is, HAHAHA you have got to be kidding me! But of course, the numbers don't lie! LOL 









						Minnesota AG sues Covid-19 testing providers for allegedly faking or failing to deliver results | CNN
					

Some people reported getting their test results much later than the time promised, and some reported never receiving the results of their rapid antigen tests or PCR tests, according to the lawsuit.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/GNfGZEa


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/dA3Wk1w


----------



## Soccermaverick

Lol


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/Ph4znmX


Cool.  Now:

1. add omicron
2. distinguish the unvaccinated between immunonaive and prior infection
3. break it up by age category.  

What do you think it will tell you?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Rogan‘s guests include both those who know what they are talking about, and those who do not.
> 
> The trouble is that most people can’t tell the difference.  This didn’t matter back when *Cronkite’s staff would filter out the trash*.  Rogan’s show doesn’t do that.


Why should they?  

And who is the decider in chief that gets to announce who knows what they are talking about vs who doesn't.  Disagreement/discourse should be allowed.  If you disagree, lay it out.  It's funny that drs M&M (malone/ mcCullough ) have risen in status because of the hysteria.  A simple point by point analysis would have sufficed and likely their names would have continued to be just below the mainstream.  They had their great points, backed by data, others were grounded in their professional opinion without data to be taken seriously.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/dA3Wk1w


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/CorvXtU


Funny how they rushed they the “vaccine” but have yet to approve a treatment….wonder why?


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/Ph4znmX


Who on here are you trying to convince to get vaccinated?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Actually, the difference between team virus and team panic looked more moderate pre-vax.   The “masks are stupid” counties were only dying at 2-3 times the rate of the rest of us.
> 
> Post vax, it’s night and day.  Blue cities with 80% vax rates had pretty low deaths from delta.  Red counties with 40% vax rates got hammered.   The death ratio of unvax/vax went above 10-1.


“. . . Yeah but!”


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> Sorry, I didn'r know I needed to repeat word for word what you exactly said, since you were the one who said it.  So just to clarify, out of the house to "dinner" 2 times.  HAHAHA, wow! You're a sharp one!
> 
> I realize you do not know any of these people, as I have said, I believe you live in a very small bubble and probably have a very small circle of friends.  The numbers of covid cases that have increased in the last month can show you that vaccinated people are a big reason why there is such a spike.  I didn't realize I needed to spell that out for you as well. Your reading comprehension is bar none!


Of course vaccinated people are getting omicron.  Of course you will see larger numbers amongst the vaccinated where vaccination rates are high.  Let me ask you this, amongst your, presumably, humungous circle of friends, how many are vax'd and how many aren't?  Let's start there.

In our county, absolutely the number of vaccinated people contracting omicron are more than the number of unvaccinated.  Want to know why? We have around a 90% vaccination rate.  The raw numbers do not change the fact that the unvaccinated are more likely to contract the virus by a significant margin.  It really is basic math.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Actually, the difference between team virus and team panic looked more moderate pre-vax.   The “masks are stupid” counties were only dying at 2-3 times the rate of the rest of us.
> 
> Post vax, it’s night and day.  Blue cities with 80% vax rates had pretty low deaths from delta.  Red counties with 40% vax rates got hammered.   The death ratio of unvax/vax went above 10-1.


Who exactly are you trying to convince to get vaccinated?  Nuance escapes you..And yes, I know you will direct me to some chart or graph. 

What counties are you referring to?  The counties that are generally in poorer health compared to SCC, counties where socio economic conditions are less than idea when compared to SCC?  So many variables.  It's looking more and  more like masking isn't/wasn't as effective as many people thought. Do they provide some level of protection...sure, in very controlled environments.  The vast majority of people don't wear them correctly...and they never will.  People like you will, for short amounts of time - running from your car, into the store, then back home, or grabbing take out.   People on their feet 8+ hrs a day, moving around, etc are not going to wear their mask correctly.  

The reality is permanent masking will never be accepted by the majority, in most cases it doesn't even make sense to wear a mask.  Their will be a minority that continues to mask.  Have at it, your choice.


----------



## baldref

NorCalDad said:


> how many are vax'd and how many aren't?


Nunya....


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> They have lots of Ls.
> 
> Pretty much everything they advocated for has come crashing down.
> 
> There are fewer and fewer true believers around. A few still hang out here.


And a big "L" on the way.









						Democrats Warn That Republicans Plan To Steal Election By Blocking Democrat Efforts To Steal Election
					

WASHINGTON, D.C.—Democrats have issued a dire warning to the American people that Republicans will steal the election in 2022 by blocking all Democrat efforts to steal the election.




					babylonbee.com


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> “. . . Yeah but!”


Yeah, so now, since you are so worried about others, we should make sure we stop all fast food, alcohol and cigarette sales, and make exercising mandatory, because Obesity kills almost *3 million people* worldwide EVERY YEAR! Smoking kills about 500,000 people a year....oh, but wait, those industries make Billions so let's not talk about that, I'm sure that is irrelevant to you, but it is kinda confusing because I thought you were worried about others and wanted what's best for us all.

How about this, if people can't prove they have done at least 200 minutes of exercise a week (a California Standard in Education), smoke, or eat fast food, they shouldn't be allowed to go to the hospital. There is no excuse, everyone can exercise, alcohol is a choice! And if you smoke, forget a hospital bed, you'd probably end up there.  Those people are taking up hospital beds, why don't we talk about them, there is such laser focus on unvaccinated. 
U.S. spends 200 Billion a year on Obesity and medical cost for those with Obesity is almost $2000 more a year than a healthy person.  So if you are so worried about others, so now you can focus on someone else.  Wonder how many hospital beds those patients are taking up?






						Obesity
					

Obesity has reached epidemic proportions globally, with at least 2.8 million people dying each year as a result of being overweight or obese.




					www.who.int
				



.









						Obesity is a Common, Serious, and Costly Disease
					

Get the latest data and facts about adult obesity in the US.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Of course vaccinated people are getting omicron.  Of course you will see larger numbers amongst the vaccinated where vaccination rates are high.  Let me ask you this, amongst your, presumably, humungous circle of friends, how many are vax'd and how many aren't?  Let's start there.
> 
> In our county, absolutely the number of vaccinated people contracting omicron are more than the number of unvaccinated.  Want to know why? We have around a 90% vaccination rate.  The raw numbers do not change the fact that the unvaccinated are more likely to contract the virus by a significant margin.  It really is basic math.


"Significant" assumes facts not in evidence, at least against the omicron.  Double Pfizer boost less than 20 percent efficacy at 20 weeks out.  Booster Pfizer at around 40 percent 10 weeks out and declining.  A better argument is dad4's well if everyone is vaccinated, the population is going to get significantly less infections.   Unfortunately, real world data out of Portugal, Spain, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Gibraltar and Ireland all contradict this point.  Where'd you pull "significant" out of?  What does it mean?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> "Significant" assumes facts not in evidence, at least against the omicron.


Its been posted.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Of course vaccinated people are getting omicron.  Of course you will see larger numbers amongst the vaccinated where vaccination rates are high.  Let me ask you this, amongst your, presumably, humungous circle of friends, how many are vax'd and how many aren't?  Let's start there.
> 
> In our county, absolutely the number of vaccinated people contracting omicron are more than the number of unvaccinated.  Want to know why? We have around a 90% vaccination rate.  The raw numbers do not change the fact that the unvaccinated are more likely to contract the virus by a significant margin.  It really is basic math.


Wouldn't it make more sense to ask who amongst the most vulnerable remain unvaccinated and/or unboosted?  Should Universities mandate boosting for healthy students who are already vaccinated or have been exposed?  Same goes for the U18 crowd. 

Shouldn't the discussion be about how to best and safely immunize communities?  I think that is lost on most people.  Vaccine gaslighting only benefits Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, etc.  Pretty much everyone on the planet will eventually get sars-cov-2.  Whether you've been vaxxed, boosted, infected...it's coming for you eventually.  Healthy people will likely be fine. 

As you age out or you have the magic comorbids, then get vaxxed and  boosted.  Boosters are probably in the future for the rest of your life if you fall into that category.  You will eventually die of something.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Who exactly are you trying to convince to get vaccinated?  Nuance escapes you..And yes, I know you will direct me to some chart or graph.
> 
> What counties are you referring to?  The counties that are generally in poorer health compared to SCC, counties where socio economic conditions are less than idea when compared to SCC?  So many variables.  It's looking more and  more like masking isn't/wasn't as effective as many people thought. Do they provide some level of protection...sure, in very controlled environments.  The vast majority of people don't wear them correctly...and they never will.  People like you will, for short amounts of time - running from your car, into the store, then back home, or grabbing take out.   People on their feet 8+ hrs a day, moving around, etc are not going to wear their mask correctly.
> 
> The reality is permanent masking will never be accepted by the majority, in most cases it doesn't even make sense to wear a mask.  Their will be a minority that continues to mask.  Have at it, your choice.


You are arguing that Bangladeshi peasants are smart enough to wear a mask effectively, but Americans are somehow not up to the task.

I do not share your low opinion of our countrymen.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Its been posted.


1. Do we have the updated data for Pfizer boosted 20 weeks out?
2. 20 percent is not significant at least for the double dose Pfizer.  
3.  It's something.  The question then becomes is the tradeoff big enough to undertake the costs in mandating it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are arguing that Bangladeshi peasants are smart enough to wear a mask effectively, but Americans are somehow not up to the task.
> 
> I do not share your low opinion of our countrymen.


Are you arguing the Bangladesh study again?  As you are aware the Bangladeshi participants were monitored and provided an education in how to wear them.  Even then, the study found no statistical effect under a certain age group (can't remember what the number was but IIRC it was age fifty)


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You are arguing that Bangladeshi peasants are smart enough to wear a mask effectively, but Americans are somehow not up to the task.
> 
> I do not share your low opinion of our countrymen.


Then you have to leave your house in order to appreciate the less than adequate mask wearing skills of your fellow americans.  Any target, costco, walmart will do.  

When was the last time you flew?  Have you seen the french fry guy?  It's a real thing...people can somehow eat and drink for hrs  on planes.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "Significant" assumes facts not in evidence, at least against the omicron.  Double Pfizer boost less than 20 percent efficacy at 20 weeks out.  Booster Pfizer at around 40 percent 10 weeks out and declining.  A better argument is dad4's well if everyone is vaccinated, the population is going to get significantly less infections.   Unfortunately, real world data out of Portugal, Spain, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Gibraltar and Ireland all contradict this point.  Where'd you pull "significant" out of?  What does it mean?


Don't quote me for your nonsense.  You start by conflating second shots with boosters (3rd shots).  Then you misquote the effectiveness numbers.

If you want to talk numbers, take the time to find the link, so you don't get them wrong.


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> Of course vaccinated people are getting omicron.  Of course you will see larger numbers amongst the vaccinated where vaccination rates are high.  Let me ask you this, amongst your, presumably, humungous circle of friends, how many are vax'd and how many aren't?  Let's start there.
> 
> In our county, absolutely the number of vaccinated people contracting omicron are more than the number of unvaccinated.  Want to know why? We have around a 90% vaccination rate.  The raw numbers do not change the fact that the unvaccinated are more likely to contract the virus by a significant margin.  It really is basic math.


I never said I had a lot of friends, I just work in a couple industries that I talk to a lot of people from all ages. I would honestly say almost all those I am around are vaccinated, I know this because they don’t have to test like I do. So really, I knew every week if I was positive, but all those vaccinated I was around were spreading it like a wildfire!

I’m not sure vaccinated were less likely to contract the Big O, I don’t think we will ever really know the truth about that. Just like we really won’t know how many that are vaccinated died of Covid. There is only a certain amount of info we can actually track down.

So if you feel you are less likely to get it and you know are back to normal, why do you worryso much about those that aren’t vaccinated?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/UuI1iih


I ran a Spartan race with a group of guys a few years back. 2 months later one of the fathers died of complications from the flu.  He too was in “perfect” health.  Not sure what your point is……but sadly, death happens.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Don't quote me for your nonsense.  You start by conflating second shots with boosters (3rd shots).  Then you misquote the effectiveness numbers.
> 
> If you want to talk numbers, take the time to find the link, so you don't get them wrong.


1. I wasn’t quoting you anything. I was asking NorCal dad to justify his use of the word significant
2. You admitting you have a doppelgänger and are NorCal dad?
3. I didn’t conflate anything. I specifically pointed out you had to break the two up.  If you want to go further look at the recent Israeli data re 4th shots. The only thing you are doing is pushing out the date of infections, not preventing anything.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> 1. I wasn’t quoting you anything. I was asking NorCal dad to justify his use of the word significant
> 2. You admitting you have a doppelgänger and are NorCal dad?
> 3. I didn’t conflate anything. I specifically pointed out you had to break the two up.  If you want to go further look at the recent Israeli data re 4th shots. The only thing you are doing is pushing out the date of infections, not preventing anything.


The spirit of EOTL left Golden Gate and has now entered into Mavs.  Where is Espola & Husker today?  NoCaldad is making a big splash today.  I think these guys play multiple avatars to get under our skin.  Grace T, I have finally figured out a few things about life and i can;t wait to share it with everyone some day.  Right now, I'm keeping it all to myself.


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> I never said I had a lot of friends, I just work in a couple industries that I talk to a lot of people from all ages. I would honestly say almost all those I am around are vaccinated, I know this because they don’t have to test like I do. So really, I knew every week if I was positive, but all those vaccinated I was around were spreading it like a wildfire!
> 
> I’m not sure vaccinated were less likely to contract the Big O, I don’t think we will ever really know the truth about that. Just like we really won’t know how many that are vaccinated died of Covid. There is only a certain amount of info we can actually track down.
> 
> So if you feel you are less likely to get it and you know are back to normal, why do you worryso much about those that aren’t vaccinated?


But we do know -- You're acting like the Caveman Lawyer.

I don't care if you get the vaccine or not.  Your choice.  What I do know is it is indeed effective.  What I also know is when a community comes together like the one I am part of, good things happen.  We don't have the same grim outlook that @Grace T. keeps on promoting.  There's too much BS and poor logic on this thread.


----------



## NorCalDad




----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> 1. I wasn’t quoting you anything. I was asking NorCal dad to justify his use of the word significant
> 2. You admitting you have a doppelgänger and are NorCal dad?
> 3. I didn’t conflate anything. I specifically pointed out you had to break the two up.  If you want to go further look at the recent Israeli data re 4th shots. The only thing you are doing is pushing out the date of infections, not preventing anything.











						Fourth Vaccine Shot Less Effective Against Omicron, Israeli Study Says
					

A fourth shot of the COVID-19 vaccine boosts antibodies but doesn’t provide enough protection to prevent infections from the Omicron variant, according to new research at an Israeli hospital.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Are you arguing the Bangladesh study again?  As you are aware the Bangladeshi participants were monitored and provided an education in how to wear them.  Even then, the study found no statistical effect under a certain age group (can't remember what the number was but IIRC it was age fifty)


Are you saying the state and federal governments lack sufficient funds for a decent mask education campaign?

I had no idea it was that bad   That's an outrage!  Let's increase taxes.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> On behalf of San Diego I would like recognize the Bay Area contributions to preventing the spread of the virus with the "1st Annual Covid Awesomeness Award".  Everything is Awesome!
> 
> (Please pay no attention to the rampant crime and the mass homelessness in the Bay Area, they've done really awesome with Covid.  Just watch your step when you're in the City).


Well, in my neck of the woods in the Bay Area, things haven't been so great. Downtown we had a 16-year-old girl get her neck slashed a few months back in the middle of the afternoon while walking through town. Fortunately, she survived. The high-end mall near our home has been looted, openly, by both organized gangs that rush in and out as well as casual shop-lifters doing so at their leisure and leaving Nordstrom without security in sight. My wife asked one of the workers if she knew what was going on and she said they did. After that, I warned my wife that with the general lack of security the thieves will start to get bolder and accost individuals. Well, a couple of months later (two days ago) we had an armed robbery (possibly a "replica" handgun) of two diners eating outside at the mall (not @dad4, it was two ladies) in broad daylight. The thief was seen riding off on one of those Facebook/Google bikes. Those bikes aren't built for speed. They still haven't found him 2 days later. I'm taking a little break from the mall until they get their security issues figured out. Of course, it's not just the mall or downtown, on Monday I was going to add a few more things to the recycling bin at about 7:15 AM and as I walked out my front door, I realized a homeless person was sleeping on my porch. I was so shocked I almost laughed out loud.

So, at best Mr. "Everything is great here in Norcal" is clueless, at worst he's not even real - simply a troll espousing an ideology and being dishonest while doing it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Are you saying the state and federal governments lack sufficient funds for a decent mask education campaign?
> 
> I had no idea it was that bad   That's an outrage!  Let's increase taxes.


On the level of supervision of the Bangladesh study?  Yeah, it lacks the funds and personnel to do such an extensive campaign (not to mention probably the federal power on a constitutional level).

p.s. I'm to the left of you in fiscal policy.  Let's increase taxes is probably a good idea.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> More reality sinking in.
> 
> Try it sometime.
> 
> 
> _England is set to get rid of essentially all of its COVID-19 restrictions, as was announced by United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Wednesday.
> 
> Mandatory mask-wearing on public transportation and in stores, guidelines on working from home, as well as vaccine certifications will be ended next week. Johnson said that the rule making individuals prove recent recovery from a coronavirus infection or display a vaccine certificate to attend certain large events will stop, as well.
> 
> 
> 
> The Guardian reported, “The prime minister also told the Commons that the legal requirement on people with coronavirus to self-isolate would be allowed to lapse when the regulations expired on 24 March, and that date could be brought forward.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> England To Scrap Most COVID Restrictions, Boris Johnson Announces | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailywire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Nothing like a distraction in the middle of a series of political scandals. What BJ's for today, he could be radically against tomorrow. It just depends on whether its good for BJ or not, nothing else comes into his reasoning.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, in my neck of the woods in the Bay Area, things haven't been so great. Downtown we had a 16-year-old girl get her neck slashed a few months back in the middle of the afternoon while walking through town. Fortunately, she survived. The high-end mall near our home has been looted, openly, by both organized gangs that rush in and out as well as casual shop-lifters doing so at their leisure and leaving Nordstrom without security in sight. My wife asked one of the workers if she knew what was going on and she said they did. After that, I warned my wife that with the general lack of security the thieves will start to get bolder and accost individuals. Well, a couple of months later (two days ago) we had an armed robbery (possibly a "replica" handgun) of two diners eating outside at the mall (not @dad4, it was two ladies) in broad daylight. The thief was seen riding off on one of those Facebook/Google bikes. Those bikes aren't built for speed. They still haven't found him 2 days later. I'm taking a little break from the mall until they get their security issues figured out. Of course, it's not just the mall or downtown, on Monday I was going to add a few more things to the recycling bin at about 7:15 AM and as I walked out my front door, I realized a homeless person was sleeping on my porch. I was so shocked I almost laughed out loud.
> 
> So, at best Mr. "Everything is great here in Norcal" is clueless, at worst he's not even real - simply a troll espousing an ideology and being dishonest while doing it.


Yeah but, you've had more vaccinations, fewer cases and fewer deaths from Covid.  You sound ungrateful, sheesh.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, in my neck of the woods in the Bay Area, things haven't been so great. Downtown we had a 16-year-old girl get her neck slashed a few months back in the middle of the afternoon while walking through town. Fortunately, she survived. The high-end mall near our home has been looted, openly, by both organized gangs that rush in and out as well as casual shop-lifters doing so at their leisure and leaving Nordstrom without security in sight. My wife asked one of the workers if she knew what was going on and she said they did. After that, I warned my wife that with the general lack of security the thieves will start to get bolder and accost individuals. Well, a couple of months later (two days ago) we had an armed robbery (possibly a "replica" handgun) of two diners eating outside at the mall (not @dad4, it was two ladies) in broad daylight. The thief was seen riding off on one of those Facebook/Google bikes. Those bikes aren't built for speed. They still haven't found him 2 days later. I'm taking a little break from the mall until they get their security issues figured out. Of course, it's not just the mall or downtown, on Monday I was going to add a few more things to the recycling bin at about 7:15 AM and as I walked out my front door, I realized a homeless person was sleeping on my porch. I was so shocked I almost laughed out loud.
> 
> So, at best Mr. "Everything is great here in Norcal" is clueless, at worst he's not even real - simply a troll espousing an ideology and being dishonest while doing it.


Thanks for reporting the real NoCal News.  "Safety first" is my motto and I can say in LA, it's the same danger.  We lost a beauty from UCLA the other day.  She was working and some dude walked in and put a knife in her at 2pm.  They caught him and he has a rap sheet.  He bit a cop in the face and should have been locked up but no, he was working on his rehabilitation with the outside world and had a little slip up.  I pray for peace.  I told my dd not to go shopping in LA until later.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> Thanks for reporting the real NoCal News.  "Safety first" is my motto and I can say in LA, it's the same danger.  We lost a beauty from UCLA the other day.  She was working and some dude walked in and put a knife in her at 2pm.  They caught him and he has a rap sheet.  He bit a cop in the face and should have been locked but no, he was working on his rehabilitation with the outside world and had a little slip up.  I pray for peace.  I told my dd not to go shopping in LA until later.


I have been following that story. Terribly sad. We have many mentally ill people with criminal backgrounds on the street - and this is what happens.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> 1. Do we have the updated data for Pfizer boosted 20 weeks out?
> 2. 20 percent is not significant at least for the double dose Pfizer.
> 3.  It's something.  The question then becomes is the tradeoff big enough to undertake the costs in mandating it.


Just project exponential decay.  come on.
Significant compared to what
See #10332


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just project exponential decay.  come on.
> Significant compared to what
> See #10332


1. o.k. so eventually approaching zero after a certain number of weeks.  The relevant number is the floor (at least over a year) because you aren't going to get people to keep boosting every 3 months and in any case the Israeli data seems to show a diminishing return to boosters.  Otherwise, all you are doing is pushing infections out in time (hence the relevant number being the floor)
2. relative to zero.  come on.  And if we project that one out further, it also approaches zero (in some errant data collection even a slight negative, which made not very much sense)
3. cool.


----------



## MicPaPa

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I ran a Spartan race with a group of guys a few years back. 2 months later one of the fathers died of complications from the flu.  He too was in “perfect” health.  Not sure what your point is……but sadly, death happens.


Like Biden, he has no point, just rambles mindlessly.


----------



## espola

At this point in my life, I'm perfectly happy never to fly again.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Well, in my neck of the woods in the Bay Area, things haven't been so great. Downtown we had a 16-year-old girl get her neck slashed a few months back in the middle of the afternoon while walking through town. Fortunately, she survived. The high-end mall near our home has been looted, openly, by both organized gangs that rush in and out as well as casual shop-lifters doing so at their leisure and leaving Nordstrom without security in sight. My wife asked one of the workers if she knew what was going on and she said they did. After that, I warned my wife that with the general lack of security the thieves will start to get bolder and accost individuals. Well, a couple of months later (two days ago) we had an armed robbery (possibly a "replica" handgun) of two diners eating outside at the mall (not @dad4, it was two ladies) in broad daylight. The thief was seen riding off on one of those Facebook/Google bikes. Those bikes aren't built for speed. They still haven't found him 2 days later. I'm taking a little break from the mall until they get their security issues figured out. Of course, it's not just the mall or downtown, on Monday I was going to add a few more things to the recycling bin at about 7:15 AM and as I walked out my front door, I realized a homeless person was sleeping on my porch. I was so shocked I almost laughed out loud.
> 
> So, at best Mr. "Everything is great here in Norcal" is clueless, at worst he's not even real - simply a troll espousing an ideology and being dishonest while doing it.


Sounds like the world is collapsing around you.  There's probably a support group that can help you.  Are you suggesting the vaccine is to blame for that crime?  I suspect some of our SoCal friends here have PLENTY more stories to tell when it comes to crime.  I can give you stories much worse than what you've told from my time growing up in SoCal (one image comes to mind a classmate, who was in a gang, with an AK-47 being shot down by police).  Not gaslighting the crime you're seeing, but that stuff has been going on for ages and has nothing to do with the pandemic, the virus, or the vaccine.  I have friends in the police force that could tell stories for days.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> Sounds like the world is collapsing around you.  There's probably a support group that can help you.  Are you suggesting the vaccine is to blame for that crime?  I suspect some of our SoCal friends here have PLENTY more stories to tell when it comes to crime.  I can give you stories much worse than what you've told from my time growing up in SoCal (one image comes to mind a classmate, who was in a gang, with an AK-47 being shot down by police).  Not gaslighting the crime you're seeing, but that stuff has been going on for ages and has nothing to do with the pandemic, the virus, or the vaccine.  I have friends in the police force that could tell stories for days.


To be fair I've seen things in SF that nobody should have had to witness.  I wasn't suggesting there's more crime in SoCal (I have no idea).  Just that crime has always been around.  Maybe a good discussion for another OFF TOPIC thread.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> 1. o.k. so eventually approaching zero after a certain number of weeks.  The relevant number is the floor (at least over a year) because you aren't going to get people to keep boosting every 3 months and in any case the Israeli data seems to show a diminishing return to boosters.  Otherwise, all you are doing is pushing infections out in time (hence the relevant number being the floor)
> 2. relative to zero.  come on.  And if we project that one out further, it also approaches zero (in some errant data collection even a slight negative, which made not very much sense)
> 3. cool.


OK, so eventually is not useful is you want to talk about what is and is not significant.  Pop the UK VE data in Excel and exponential decay y=87.5e(-0.093x) has R(2) = 0.98).  Pretty good fit.  y = 0 at ~87 weeks. Which fits generally with what you'd expect for duration of an Ab response, either with vaxx, infection.  Looking at the crappy CDC study released today, its frankly embarrassing that we can't generate useful data like the UK and a few other EU countries are doing.  They are kicking our ass.

Significant relative to 0.  OK so with that curve fit from above, even without booster and the getting the jab with the crappiest of the vaccines, you have significant-by your definition-Ab based immunity for 87 weeks.  

It is cool.  Little differences in VE add up in terms of reduction in cases.  The point is reducing infections in the here and now matters.  Why? Reduced total number of virus reduces probability of the next variant getting hatched and yet another wave.  It is good empidemiology to stretch things out with omicron.  Your original example was chickenpox.  Chickenpox is chickenpox.  Some kids got it last year, some this year, some will get it next year.  But its still chickenpox. It's evolutionarily stable which is what endemic really means.  Increase the odds of omicron becoming the endemic form of Cov-2 by stretching it out as much as possible?  I'll take that scenario.  Doesn't solve the longer term problem of emergent forms from resevoirs that our kids will be dealing with but a bit of a break would be nice.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Just that crime has always been around.  Maybe a good discussion for another OFF TOPIC thread.


Agree on both points. Crime goes in cycles based on the economy and policy - independent of vaccines. It is on the uptick in the Bay Area and in most Blue States and that doesn't bode well for the Dems in the next election cycle. Now that may have an effect on what vaccine policy is put forth. As we saw with the recall, nothing changes #science like the prospect of not getting re-elected.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The point is reducing infections in the here and now matters.  Why? Reduced total number of virus reduces probability of the next variant getting hatched and yet another wave.  It is good empidemiology to stretch things out with omicron.


The chink in the armor is the rest of the world.  Africa and Asia will have a big say in when the next variant comes along.  A break will be nice and the hope that the virus continues its current evolutionary trend.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> OK, so eventually is not useful is you want to talk about what is and is not significant.  Pop the UK VE data in Excel and exponential decay y=87.5e(-0.093x) has R(2) = 0.98).  Pretty good fit.  y = 0 at ~87 weeks. Which fits generally with what you'd expect for duration of an Ab response, either with vaxx, infection.  Looking at the crappy CDC study released today, its frankly embarrassing that we can't generate useful data like the UK and a few other EU countries are doing.  They are kicking our ass.
> 
> Significant relative to 0.  OK so with that curve fit from above, even without booster and the getting the jab with the crappiest of the vaccines, you have significant-by your definition-Ab based immunity for 87 weeks.
> 
> It is cool.  Little differences in VE add up in terms of reduction in cases.  The point is reducing infections in the here and now matters.  Why? Reduced total number of virus reduces probability of the next variant getting hatched and yet another wave.  It is good empidemiology to stretch things out with omicron.  Your original example was chickenpox.  Chickenpox is chickenpox.  Some kids got it last year, some this year, some will get it next year.  But its still chickenpox. It's evolutionarily stable which is what endemic really means.  Increase the odds of omicron becoming the endemic form of Cov-2 by stretching it out as much as possible?  I'll take that scenario.  Doesn't solve the longer term problem of emergent forms from resevoirs that our kids will be dealing with but a bit of a break would be nice.


You lost me at reduce the probability of the next wave. You do realize large swaths of the third world aren’t being vaccinated at the rates of the west.  Then look at all the graphs of omicron infections even in highly vaxxed countries. Then the zoonotic reserve (or if you prefer the aids immunocompromised theory. Plenty of room (football stadium sized room, city block sized room, isle of sodor sized room) for new variants. Get back to me when the mouse problem has been eliminated.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> You lost me at reduce the probability of the next wave. You do realize large swaths of the third world aren’t being vaccinated at the rates of the west.  Then look at all the graphs of omicron infections even in highly vaxxed countries. Then the zoonotic reserve (or if you prefer the aids immunocompromised theory. Plenty of room (football stadium sized room, city block sized room, isle of sodor sized room) for new variants. Get back to me when the mouse problem has been eliminated.


And here we are talking about 3rd, 4th shots and “vaccinating” 5 yr olds and under.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You lost me at reduce the probability of the next wave. You do realize large swaths of the third world aren’t being vaccinated at the rates of the west.  Then look at all the graphs of omicron infections even in highly vaxxed countries. Then the zoonotic reserve (or if you prefer the aids immunocompromised theory. Plenty of room (football stadium sized room, city block sized room, isle of sodor sized room) for new variants. Get back to me when the mouse problem has been eliminated.


Ps just read an article out of India finding the Sputnik vaccines declines slower and is more robust against the omicron (almost twice as much). Guess the Russians win the competition both for speed and efficacy of it holds up. China still in last place.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Ps just read an article out of India finding the Sputnik vaccines declines slower and is more robust against the omicron (almost twice as much). Guess the Russians win the competition both for speed and efficacy of it holds up. China still in last place.


So, switching out potassium chloride with vodka was a smart move after all? China? Seems like karma.

IIRC, they "encouraged" some in the Russian military to take Sputnik very early.


----------



## NorCalDad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483792624721010689


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483792624721010689


The cases chart only tells part of the story. First it cuts off at 12/19 where there’s still a bunch of delta floating around and we know the unvaxxed are susceptible to both delta and omicron. Second, and this might actually help your case of the proportion is high, but the unvaxxed line doesn’t distinguish between the naturally immune and the immuno naive. Third, if we cut out just the immuno naive, at that point you have a small sample size v a large.  Fourth, the comparison to the city rate is useful…a moderate size of failure is still a very large number.


----------



## Desert Hound

Actually the problem is that in places like SF they are not protecting the taxpayer.

They keep making excuses and create laws/policies that protect the criminal class and disadvantage the productive part of society.

Further what you see now was easily predictable, and yet this is what was/is pursued.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way for espola and how the press carries water for a certain side.

Read through it. This story was proven false almost immediately and yet look how it spread like wildfire.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483960962763968515


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> By the way for espola and how the press carries water for a certain side.
> 
> Read through it. This story was proven false almost immediately and yet look how it spread like wildfire.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483960962763968515


Ugh. Well, again, it's the bed the media made. I found this one further down the string. Wow.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483871069383573508


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> By the way for espola and how the press carries water for a certain side.
> 
> Read through it. This story was proven false almost immediately and yet look how it spread like wildfire.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483960962763968515


Carry water?  I posted links to two non-partisan analyses of media bias.  Didn't you read them?  Or look at the pictures?

I'm guessing not, since you followed with criticism that they must be biased because they never post stories that make you feel good about your personal political positions.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Carry water?  I posted links to two non-partisan analyses of media bias.  Didn't you read them?  Or look at the pictures?
> 
> I'm guessing not, since you followed with criticism that they must be biased because they never post stories that make you feel good about your personal political positions.


Here's another version --


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Here's another version --
> 
> View attachment 12731


“. . . yeah but!”


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ugh. Well, again, it's the bed the media made. I found this one further down the string. Wow.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483871069383573508


The hard lefty's are snitches, tattle talers, gossipers, liars, cheaters and back stabbers and will save themselves first.  My good friends from the left side have been honest, eyes wide open and high five me.  The bad cheaters on left, their losing their shits and it's all over their faces.  TGIF bro.  love you man


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> Here's another version --
> 
> View attachment 12731


I like the app - Ground News. You can click an article and it will categorize the org covering - it will also allow you to click to others and categorize them. It will also group the L/C/R and give % coverage, e.g. an article is getting coverage L/C/R 40%/40%/20% for example.

Basically you can read the same news from any or all of 3 different perspectives. You can also see how one side is all over some items vs the other.

Ground News

From their front page


----------



## Ellejustus

RIP Meat Loaf.  I will do anything for love, but I won;t do that ((The Jab)) for love......


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> I like the app - Ground News. You can click an article and it will categorize the org covering - it will also allow you to click to others and categorize them. It will also group the L/C/R and give % coverage, e.g. an article is getting coverage L/C/R 40%/40%/20% for example.
> 
> Basically you can read the same news from any or all of 3 different perspectives. You can also see how one side is all over some items vs the other.
> 
> Ground News
> 
> From their front page
> 
> View attachment 12732


Ideology over facts? I prefer a site that fact-checks, I can discern the slant pretty easily.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ideology over facts? I prefer a site that fact-checks, I can discern the slant pretty easily.


Who fact checks the fact checkers? If it's on the internet, it has a slant.  To your point, discerning the slant is your own responsibility.


----------



## azsnowrider

what-happened said:


> Who fact checks the fact checkers? If it's on the internet, it has a slant.  To your point, discerning the slant is your own responsibility.


But I thought everything on the internet was true.


----------



## espola

azsnowrider said:


> But I thought everything on the internet was true.


So far, his actions are consistent with those of a French model.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Who fact checks the fact checkers? If it's on the internet, it has a slant.  To your point, discerning the slant is your own responsibility.


The funny thing is it looks like in the chart they struggled to find a true centrist.  The BCC is not centrist.  NPR and WSJ had to be broken up into news and opinion to fit there.  RCP as a publisher is not centrist....only as an aggregator....it leans right.  It's a stretch to call Newsweek centrist because they publish a few conservatives from time to time.  But they no doubt found the centrist category lacking and wanted to put in as much in it as possible.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Who fact checks the fact checkers? If it's on the internet, it has a slant.  To your point, discerning the slant is your own responsibility.


What does the Internet have to do with it?  How are these publications behaving any differently than they did pre-Internet?  Yellow journalism has existed before any of us were alive.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The funny thing is it looks like in the chart they struggled to find a true centrist.  The BCC is not centrist.  NPR and WSJ had to be broken up into news and opinion to fit there.  RCP as a publisher is not centrist....only as an aggregator....it leans right.  It's a stretch to call Newsweek centrist because they publish a few conservatives from time to time.  But they no doubt found the centrist category lacking and wanted to put in as much in it as possible.


No doubt?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No doubt?


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> What does the Internet have to do with it?  How are these publications behaving any differently than they did pre-Internet?  Yellow journalism has existed before any of us were alive.


 I don't really understand your point. I was talking about claims of fact checking and the fallacy of it.  For example, who is fact checking facebook fact checkers.  Facebook has admitted their fact checkers have used biased opinion as the basis for the fact checking.....funny huh.  Factcheckers who aren't steeped in facts.   Self licking ice cream cone.  

Happens all the time, especially when people cherry pick data to make a point, intionally leaving out data that provides helpful context to allow someone to make a decision.  Activists doctors are doing this all the time these days.  You posted an analsysis from a Dr that didn't provide 100% of information needed to come to an unbiased conclusion.  He has an agenda - well intentioned or not.  The M&Ms on the Rogan show did the same thing.  Funny how that happens..


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> I like the app - Ground News. You can click an article and it will categorize the org covering - it will also allow you to click to others and categorize them. It will also group the L/C/R and give % coverage, e.g. an article is getting coverage L/C/R 40%/40%/20% for example.
> 
> Basically you can read the same news from any or all of 3 different perspectives. You can also see how one side is all over some items vs the other.
> 
> Ground News
> 
> From their front page
> 
> View attachment 12732


How do they determine their ratings?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Carry water?  I posted links to two non-partisan analyses of media bias.  Didn't you read them?  Or look at the pictures?
> 
> I'm guessing not, since you followed with criticism that they must be biased because they never post stories that make you feel good about your personal political positions.


Slither....
Slither....

You are a filthy snake.


----------



## Ellejustus

thirteenknots said:


> Slither....
> Slither....
> 
> You are a filthy snake.


This Espola is interesting Soul.  My dd went through some soccer Doc shit and I got ripped for even asking a few questions about how a Doc should behave around young females learning to be the best of the best at 13 years old.  The day of reckoning is fast approaching.  Protect the children first and all will go well for you and your family.  Allow children to be abused and you got Karma and a custom Millstone coming for your neck.  Most fair minded men want to protect the kids.  Game on!!!  Now you know why they hate t so much.  Dude comes out swinging with this epic blast, "My administrations #1 focus is to eradicate human trafficking and sex trafficking and organ trafficking.  Watch this again....  0:06 he starts with his war of words with all the losers who used kids for all sorts of evil.  Look at CNN producers and all the others out there.  Help protect the kids!!!









						Open your eyes - 6m film - please watch and share to loved ones
					

I cried..... Did you?  https://t.me/disclosurehub/157




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I don't really understand your point. I was talking about claims of fact checking and the fallacy of it.  For example, who is fact checking facebook fact checkers.  Facebook has admitted their fact checkers have used biased opinion as the basis for the fact checking.....funny huh.  Factcheckers who aren't steeped in facts.   Self licking ice cream cone.
> 
> Happens all the time, especially when people cherry pick data to make a point, intionally leaving out data that provides helpful context to allow someone to make a decision.  Activists doctors are doing this all the time these days.  You posted an analsysis from a Dr that didn't provide 100% of information needed to come to an unbiased conclusion.  He has an agenda - well intentioned or not.  The M&Ms on the Rogan show did the same thing.  Funny how that happens..


What facts did FB's checkers get wrong, in your opinion?


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> This Espola is interesting Soul.  My dd went through some soccer Doc shit and I got ripped for even asking a few questions about how a Doc should behave around young females learning to be the best of the best at 13 years old.  The day of reckoning is fast approaching.  Protect the children first and all will go well for you and your family.  Allow children to be abused and you got Karma and a custom Millstone coming for your neck.  Most fair minded men want to protect the kids.  Game on!!!  Now you know why they hate t so much.  Dude comes out swinging with this epic blast, "My administrations #1 focus is to eradicate human trafficking and sex trafficking and organ trafficking.  Watch this again....  0:06 he starts with his war of words with all the losers who used kids for all sorts of evil.  Look at CNN producers and all the others out there.  Help protect the kids!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open your eyes - 6m film - please watch and share to loved ones
> 
> 
> I cried..... Did you?  https://t.me/disclosurehub/157
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


It is so infuriating that Obama got away with eating babies and the Clintons with the secret child-trafficking tunnel from the pizza parlor to the White House, am I right?  It does make one wonder why T wished convicted child trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell well in her trial, however.


----------



## Ellejustus

THE HERO'S JOURNEY - TRUMP (EyeDropMedia)
					

Trump- The Hero’s Journey.  We need to move into the final act in this movie..   The Song -Nessun Dorma (in English - None Shall Sleep) and the final lyrics... in Italian....Vincerò! Vincerò! Vincerò! translate Into English - I Will Win! , I Wil…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> How do they determine their ratings?


No idea


----------



## Ellejustus

HOLD THE LINE - PREPARE FOR THE STORM MAGA - WHERE WE GO ONE WE GO ALL
					

Boggles the mind how many Earthlings remain blissfully unaware that this war has been raging behind the veil since 2016 and already won. Everything we are watching on MSM is intended to show you how bad it would have gotten if the patriots hadn't s…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Ellejustus said:


> HOLD THE LINE - PREPARE FOR THE STORM MAGA - WHERE WE GO ONE WE GO ALL
> 
> 
> Boggles the mind how many Earthlings remain blissfully unaware that this war has been raging behind the veil since 2016 and already won. Everything we are watching on MSM is intended to show you how bad it would have gotten if the patriots hadn't s…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


You make things very awkward for the other anti-vaxxers/maskers here who are at least trying to hide their batshit craziness.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> You make things very awkward for the other anti-vaxxers/maskers here who are at least trying to hide their batshit craziness.


And you consider this sane?


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> How do they determine their ratings?


*Our Data & Methodology*
Ground News processes over 30,000 news articles each day. Articles from different news outlets covering the same news event are merged into a single story so subscribers can get all the perspectives in one view. Each article is labeled one of seven bias ratings (Far Left, Left, Leans Left, Center, Leans Right, Right, Far Right) based on the average bias rating of the publishing news Bias Rating agencies.

Ground News does not independently rate news organizations on their political bias. All bias data is referenced from third-party independent organizations dedicated to monitoring and rating news publishers along the political spectrum based on published articles and news coverage. For more information and original analysis please visit mediabiasfactcheck.com, allsides.com, and adfontesmedia.com.

Ground News - Media Bias


----------



## Kicker 2.0

If only there was someone in charge to hold accountable for letting it get this way……









						California train looting site looks ‘like a third world country,’ says governor
					

California Governor Gavin Newsom visited an area where thousands of stolen packages have been left on railway tracks in Los Angeles. While crews worked to clean-up the debris, the governor said the area “looked like a third world country,” adding that the looting is a result of organized theft.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> And you consider this sane?
> 
> View attachment 12733


You consider this sane?


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s99jpk


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9elvm


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9dwq2


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9aa43


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9eh0w
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s910q2/he_sure_got_the_last_laugh/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8ziyj/oath_beeper_per_was_a_proud_former_marine_who/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x6y1/texas_man_with_copd_turned_common_sense_into_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8iewx/his_wife_was_battling_stage_4_cancer_he_wouldnt/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9hvtt/south_carolina_man_was_an_antivaxx_flat_earth/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x4y8/ny_spider_web_loved_metal_music_disliked_trump/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8oa5f/antivax_pizza_shop_owner_dies_of_covid_waiting/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8u5r9/connecticut_blue_earns_a_hca/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8jibk/update_tiktok_conspiracy_videosharing_jejor_has/


----------



## GoldenGate

Good riddance Meatloaf, anti-mask, anti-vax dumbs**t and latest celebrity Herman Cain Award winner.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> And you consider this sane?
> 
> View attachment 12733


So why is it that you think a guy who apparently forgot to take off his mask in the car (or is just in a staged photo intended to get weak minded people like yourself frothing at the mouth) is insane, whereas thousands upon thousands of anti-mask, anti-vax dumbf**ks who die in the most hysterical and laughable got-what-they-deserved fashion are "sane"?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Here's another version --
> 
> View attachment 12731


I have a confession.  Sometimes I look at the Daily Mail as a starting point, a bit tabloid'ish but they often break stories before anyone else.  WSJ is the only news source that I generally take at face value.


----------



## Ellejustus

To all my fellow Americans.  I have no idea how and why Meat Loaf died.  I loved "some" of his songs.  "I will do anything for love, but I won't get jabbed."  Or, "Wuhan Bat Virus Out Of Hell."  RIP to the gr8t Meat Loaf.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> And you consider this sane?
> 
> View attachment 12733


His risk assessment calculations seem to be a little off.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Good riddance Meatloaf, anti-mask, anti-vax dumbs**t and latest celebrity Herman Cain Award winner.


You sure make your Momma proud!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> So why is it that you think a guy who apparently forgot to take off his mask in the car (or is just in a staged photo intended to get weak minded people like yourself frothing at the mouth) is insane, whereas thousands upon thousands of anti-mask, anti-vax dumbf**ks who die in the most hysterical and laughable got-what-they-deserved fashion are "sane"?


I guess you missed the rubber glove and plastic cover over the phone as they try and read what’s on his phone whilst driving.

Your such a true winner.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> You consider this sane?
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s99jpk
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9elvm
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9dwq2
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9aa43
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9eh0w
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s910q2/he_sure_got_the_last_laugh/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8ziyj/oath_beeper_per_was_a_proud_former_marine_who/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x6y1/texas_man_with_copd_turned_common_sense_into_a/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8iewx/his_wife_was_battling_stage_4_cancer_he_wouldnt/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9hvtt/south_carolina_man_was_an_antivaxx_flat_earth/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x4y8/ny_spider_web_loved_metal_music_disliked_trump/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8oa5f/antivax_pizza_shop_owner_dies_of_covid_waiting/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8u5r9/connecticut_blue_earns_a_hca/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8jibk/update_tiktok_conspiracy_videosharing_jejor_has/


I'm curious, you seem to post here only periodically.  Is that because of our limited access to the internet or the fact that you want to accumulate so many Reddit death posts before you post on this forum?


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> I'm curious, you seem to post here only periodically.  Is that because of our limited access to the internet or the fact that you want to accumulate so many Reddit death posts before you post on this forum?


All i know is.... if that's the other side, i'm sure glad i'm not on it.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> I'm curious, you seem to post here only periodically.  Is that because of our limited access to the internet or the fact that you want to accumulate so many Reddit death posts before you post on this forum?


I trigger him with my posts when it comes to the kids and how my dd was treated a ways back.  I also put triggers on Espola and Husker Du.  These cause them such hurt they had to ignore me because of my outrage and rage against how some Docs treated 13 year old girls.  Not all and most coaches are awesome.  However, once in a life time you might run into a bad dude and you will need to challenge the status quo.  Watch and learn and get prepared for the TRUTH.  The kids bro, you care for the kiddos and for that reason, you will be saved


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> *Our Data & Methodology*
> Ground News processes over 30,000 news articles each day. Articles from different news outlets covering the same news event are merged into a single story so subscribers can get all the perspectives in one view. Each article is labeled one of seven bias ratings (Far Left, Left, Leans Left, Center, Leans Right, Right, Far Right) based on the average bias rating of the publishing news Bias Rating agencies.
> 
> Ground News does not independently rate news organizations on their political bias. All bias data is referenced from third-party independent organizations dedicated to monitoring and rating news publishers along the political spectrum based on published articles and news coverage. For more information and original analysis please visit mediabiasfactcheck.com, allsides.com, and adfontesmedia.com.
> 
> Ground News - Media Bias


"Ground News does not independently rate news organizations on their political bias."  

So what's the point, then?


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> You consider this sane?
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s99jpk
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9elvm
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9dwq2
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9aa43
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9eh0w
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s910q2/he_sure_got_the_last_laugh/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8ziyj/oath_beeper_per_was_a_proud_former_marine_who/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x6y1/texas_man_with_copd_turned_common_sense_into_a/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8iewx/his_wife_was_battling_stage_4_cancer_he_wouldnt/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9hvtt/south_carolina_man_was_an_antivaxx_flat_earth/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8x4y8/ny_spider_web_loved_metal_music_disliked_trump/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8oa5f/antivax_pizza_shop_owner_dies_of_covid_waiting/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8u5r9/connecticut_blue_earns_a_hca/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s8jibk/update_tiktok_conspiracy_videosharing_jejor_has/


Why are you age and fat shaming people?  I thought you were more woke than that.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Good riddance Meatloaf, anti-mask, anti-vax dumbs**t and latest celebrity Herman Cain Award winner.


Ain't no doubt about it.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Ain't no doubt about it.











						WHERE WE GO ONE. WE GO ALL. WWG1WGA. EyeDropMedia (Track by DJChilli)
					

Protests are spreading across the world, this will only increase in the coming months as more people wake up. We are in this together worldwide. The Great Awakening is here. God Bless everyone in every country. Support each other,  we will get throu…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> What does the Internet have to do with it?  How are these publications behaving any differently than they did pre-Internet?  Yellow journalism has existed before any of us were alive.


trump told them it was new, they believe trump.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> I don't really understand your point. I was talking about claims of fact checking and the fallacy of it.  For example, who is fact checking facebook fact checkers.  Facebook has admitted their fact checkers have used biased opinion as the basis for the fact checking.....funny huh.  Factcheckers who aren't steeped in facts.   Self licking ice cream cone.
> 
> Happens all the time, especially when people cherry pick data to make a point, intionally leaving out data that provides helpful context to allow someone to make a decision.  Activists doctors are doing this all the time these days.  You posted an analsysis from a Dr that didn't provide 100% of information needed to come to an unbiased conclusion.  He has an agenda - well intentioned or not.  The M&Ms on the Rogan show did the same thing.  Funny how that happens..


I was referring to this part of your comment "If it's on the internet, it has a slant".  I'm just pointing these "slants" have existed forever.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I guess you missed the rubber glove and plastic cover over the phone as they try and read what’s on his phone whilst driving.
> 
> Your such a true winner.


“You’re” just saying.


----------



## Ellejustus

So "GG" Espola and Husker all hate Meat Loaf and just have nothing good to say about him after his passing.  I guess I know why.  Sickos!!!  I love Meat Loaf more today then ever before.   Jack Black need's play Met Loaf in movie about him....lol 

*Meat Loaf once claimed Prince Andrew ‘tried to push me’ over Sarah Ferguson: ‘The queen hates me’*

*"It was great fun. I had a great time," he told The Guardian. "Fergie wasn't exactly flirting with me, but she was paying attention to me, and I think Andrew got a little - I could be wrong, I'm just reading into this - I think he got a little jealous." 

"Anyway, he tried to push me in the water," Meat Loaf alleged. "He tried to push me in the moat. So I turned around, and I grabbed him, and he goes, 'You can't touch me. I'm royal.' I said, 'Well you try to push me in the moat, Jack, I don't give a s—t who you are, you're goin' in the moat.'"

 "Oh, the queen hates me," Meat Loaf also shared, referring to Andrew’s mother*


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What facts did FB's checkers get wrong, in your opinion?


not my opinion..use the google, helpful.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump told them it was new, they believe trump.


who did trump tell?


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> who did trump tell?


The Karma and hell for Husker and Espola is that t will live in their heads forever....lol


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> not my opinion..use the google, helpful.


Nothing you want to defend?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> The funny thing is it looks like in the chart they struggled to find a true centrist.  The BCC is not centrist.  NPR and WSJ had to be broken up into news and opinion to fit there.  RCP as a publisher is not centrist....only as an aggregator....it leans right.  It's a stretch to call Newsweek centrist because they publish a few conservatives from time to time.  But they no doubt found the centrist category lacking and wanted to put in as much in it as possible.


It is laughable at a variety of the orgs they label centrist. 

All one has to do is read or watch or listen to their coverage. 

Newsweek and NPR are not close to being centrist. 

The closest you have to centrist would be Real Clear Politics. And that mainly comes from the fact that they aggregate news articles. Generally on a topic you will find a story from a left point a view and then another from a right point of view. 

If you want to read a variety of points of view from left to right on a topic RCP is a great place to go.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Nothing you want to defend?


nope.


----------



## Brav520

In The John Stossel defamation suit against Facebook, Facebook argued their fact checks are merely opinion and immune from defamation


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> In The John Stossel defamation suit against Facebook, Facebook argued their fact checks are merely opinion and immune from defamation


MOO, MOO, MOO Fact Checkers work at FB.  Plus, if you voted for t in 2016 or just agreed with ending human trafficking, you were a t supporter and a deplorable and a complete trumpy.  We all remember the last three years.  I'm telling you guys, when the TRUTH comes out, ESPOLA will go away.


----------



## Grace T.

Just dropped off my car for service in my blue leaning vc town. Only 1 other lady and I were unmasked out of the 12 or so cars being dropped off despite being outdoors.  Quite a few had n95/kn95. One woman picking up a car was giving it the full alcohol wipe treatment. One guy (with a Harvard alumni license plate holder) was in full n95 sitting in his car with windows rolled up til they serviced the car…got all nervous when it was his turn. Stepped away and asked the service guy to respect his six feet.  They yelled at each other from opposite sides of the car.  Lots of people (not just people afraid of a cold) are going to need therapy after this.


----------



## Ellejustus

More Meat Loaf.  Dude is straight up honest with his feelings and lived his life the way he wanted to.  

*Meat Loaf once became a bat out of hell in viral ‘Celebrity Apprentice’ feud with Gary Busey*

"OK! Motherf----r! I bought those motherf-----g sponges!", Meat Loaf screamed at the actor. "Part of that paint is mine! I am sick and tired… you motherf----r!"

As Busey tried to reason with Meat Loaf, he fired back, "Bulls—t, you mother----r! You don’t wanna start with me! Motherf----r, you do not want to mess with me!"

"You look in my eyes," he continued. "I am the last person in the f-----g world you ever want to f—k with! You understand me? You pushed me to the f-----g limit! You mother----r.  You’ll be in the hospital in about four minutes… You pushed me too far."

It turned out the art supplies remained untouched in a corner the entire time. Still, that didn’t stop Meat Loaf from telling Busey to "shut the f—k up."

Rich chimed in, noting that the goal of the challenge was to raise money for charity.

"This kind of language and energy… it’s embarrassing to me," the country singer stressed.

After finally cooling down, Meat Loaf gave the actor an emotional apology.

"I’m so embarrassed by it, and I’m so upset by it," he tearfully said. "I truly am very sorry."


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> Good riddance Meatloaf, anti-mask, anti-vax dumbs**t and latest celebrity Herman Cain Award winner.


Objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are…


----------



## Jar!23

https://www.change.org/p/gavin-newsom-post-omicron-pivot-for-california-public-schools?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=86e1e4b0-796d-11ec-a1f5-4bdf3962d248

For your consideration and thoughts.  I don't know how teachers, some high school students and the anonymous community members would participate in school board meetings (don't even know if they are parents with school age children) would feel about it.  At the local school board meeting two weeks ago, vocal people were asking for schools to be closed again.  High school students in Oakland threatened  to walk out unless their safety demands are met.  At my kids' parochial  school, the kids test on campus twice a week.  I try to limit exposure because I don't want my kids to have to isolate from school and their activities, not because I am particularly worried about the virus.


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> In The John Stossel defamation suit against Facebook, Facebook argued their fact checks are merely opinion and immune from defamation


It's all so silly.  People believe fact checking is a real thing.  Trace the money.  Check out who/what is funding SciCheck “COVID-19/Vaccination Project".   Big Pharma and it's CDC connections are slick, they know most people aren't going to fact check the fact checkers.  Long history of conflict of interests at the CDC.  Shady at best.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> "Ground News does not independently rate news organizations on their political bias."
> 
> So what's the point, then?


They use 3 (quoted) sources to determine political bias. One of the 3 is allsides, whose graphic you posted earlier; another is adfontes who you have also quoted.

They also expand & explain what they are doing and why. You may read that or not, and form your opinion on them or not.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> It's all so silly.  People believe fact checking is a real thing.  Trace the money.  Check out who/what is funding SciCheck “COVID-19/Vaccination Project".   Big Pharma and it's CDC connections are slick, they know most people aren't going to fact check the fact checkers.  Long history of conflict of interests at the CDC.  Shady at best.


fact checkers said the Biden laptop story reported by NY POsT was Russian dis information or mis information ( they use these interchangeably)


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Jar!23 said:


> https://www.change.org/p/gavin-newsom-post-omicron-pivot-for-california-public-schools?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=86e1e4b0-796d-11ec-a1f5-4bdf3962d248
> 
> For your consideration and thoughts.  I don't know how teachers, some high school students and the anonymous community members would participate in school board meetings (don't even know if they are parents with school age children) would feel about it.  At the local school board meeting two weeks ago, vocal people were asking for schools to be closed again.  High school students in Oakland threatened  to walk out unless their safety demands are met.  At my kids' parochial  school, the kids test on campus twice a week.  I try to limit exposure because I don't want my kids to have to isolate from school and their activities, not because I am particularly worried about the virus.


Funny thing is, the kids are out partying and hanging out with each other outside of school (which is where most kids are contracting it) yet blame schools for not keeping them safe.  

Similar “protest” happened at my kids HS 2 weeks ago and half of the students mocked the “protesters” because they just wanted an excuse to go online so they could cheat on tests again.


----------



## Desert Hound

Off subject but well worth the read.









						Congress's 1/6 Committee Claims Absolute Power as it Investigates Citizens With No Judicial Limits
					

The Committee plotted with JPMorgan and its lawyer, former Obama AG Loretta Lynch, to obtain a citizen's financial records with no possibility of judicial review.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Funny thing is, the kids are out partying and hanging out with each other outside of school (which is where most kids are contracting it) yet blame schools for not keeping them safe.
> 
> Similar “protest” happened at my kids HS 2 weeks ago and half of the students mocked the “protesters” because they just wanted an excuse to go online so they could cheat on tests again.


Haven't kids been cheating on tests for a long time? The stories I could tell you from when I was a teacher ... Oh, wait, I'm not @NorCalDad


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Haven't kids been cheating on tests for a long time? The stories I could tell you from when I was a teacher ... Oh, wait, I'm not @NorCalDad


The sad thing is....

We had 10s of millions of kids in school last year. And guess what happened? Nothing. 

And yet again with a milder version of the virus running around some parts of the country are getting the vapors again and think kids need testing, masks, and/or remote learning.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> And yet again with a milder version of the virus running around some parts of the country are getting the vapors again and think kids need testing, masks, and/or remote learning.


Hey! You take that back! Here in CA, plenty of our leaders never lost the vapors!


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> In The John Stossel defamation suit against Facebook, Facebook argued their fact checks are merely opinion and immune from defamation


What checked fact upset Stossel?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> It is laughable at a variety of the orgs they label centrist.
> 
> All one has to do is read or watch or listen to their coverage.
> 
> Newsweek and NPR are not close to being centrist.
> 
> The closest you have to centrist would be Real Clear Politics. And that mainly comes from the fact that they aggregate news articles. Generally on a topic you will find a story from a left point a view and then another from a right point of view.
> 
> If you want to read a variety of points of view from left to right on a topic RCP is a great place to go.


I can understand that from the viewpoint you demonstrate here every day that something in the center looks far to your left.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Just dropped off my car for service in my blue leaning vc town. Only 1 other lady and I were unmasked out of the 12 or so cars being dropped off despite being outdoors.  Quite a few had n95/kn95. One woman picking up a car was giving it the full alcohol wipe treatment. One guy (with a Harvard alumni license plate holder) was in full n95 sitting in his car with windows rolled up til they serviced the car…got all nervous when it was his turn. Stepped away and asked the service guy to respect his six feet.  They yelled at each other from opposite sides of the car.  Lots of people (not just people afraid of a cold) are going to need therapy after this.


Another edition of Graceops Fables.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> What checked fact upset Stossel?


does it matter?


----------



## what-happened

U.S. schools scramble to fix staff shortages, as CDC calls for canceling 'high-risk' extracurriculars to help keep them open
					

New Mexico and Oklahoma are among states scrambling to come up with solutions to COVID staffing shortages, as the CDC recommends canceling certain extracurricular activities to slow the spread of COVID-19.




					www.yahoo.com
				




Good thing the vaccines work at preventing community spread.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Another edition of Graceops Fables.


If you get out, you see this regularly in my neck of the woods.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> does it matter?


 Yep.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> If you get out, you see this regularly in my neck of the woods.


I guess I need to get out more.


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> U.S. schools scramble to fix staff shortages, as CDC calls for canceling 'high-risk' extracurriculars to help keep them open
> 
> 
> New Mexico and Oklahoma are among states scrambling to come up with solutions to COVID staffing shortages, as the CDC recommends canceling certain extracurricular activities to slow the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good thing the vaccines work at preventing community spread.


It's crazy to me, that all these people who got vaccinated and told it would prevent spread are okay with how this whole thing is playing out.  "They said" get vaccinated and we will be able to go back to school, play sports, not wear mask, not get the disease, and on and on....and none of it was true. Schools and Universities have already went back virtual, games are being cancelled, mask are again mandatory, they are getting covid and they are still all in line waiting for a 3rd and 4th jab??? What? Wouldn't you think that maybe "Science" doesn't know what they are talking about? If they can't predict the short term what does that say about what will happen in the next 20 years. Crazy


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Yep.


Never mind, I found it.

I can see why people could be led to believe that Facebook (or Meta now) said that their fact-checking is all just opinions.  That's not what they said and there is a lot more there.



			https://wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Facebook-admits-its-fact-check-is-opinion-page-2.pdf


----------



## Desert Hound

This might be dad in a few years.

The video is entertaining in the sense that some people have completely freaked out. 









						Professor placed on leave for calling students 'vectors of disease'
					

A Michigan university professor Barry Mehler has been placed on leave after he told students in a profanity-laced video that he randomly assigns grades before the first day of class.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Funny thing is, the kids are out partying and hanging out with each other outside of school (which is where most kids are contracting it) yet blame schools for not keeping them safe.
> 
> Similar “protest” happened at my kids HS 2 weeks ago and half of the students mocked the “protesters” because they just wanted an excuse to go online so they could cheat on tests again.


Math made easy....lol!


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Another edition of Graceops Fables.


That's why you ignored me, right?  all my fables?  All Grace T does is add a little "extra extra read all about it" to the story line to grab your attention and boy does she.  Leave her alone, you big old bully....lol.  Come on man, be honest for once.  Grace T and t is in your head.  Do you think of her and then him when you go to sleep?  What, and who, runs through your mind when you close your eyes to go nigh nigh?


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> If you get out, you see this regularly in my neck of the woods.


In Espola's defense you won't see many people outdoors wearing masks in SD County.  Indoors I would say most people are wearing masks per State mandate.  There are always some that don't, but no one cares.  At restaurants, most patrons aren't playing security theatre.


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12737


I question his sincerity, I think he's just pandering to his base.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The closest you have to centrist would be Real Clear Politics. And that mainly comes from the fact that they aggregate news articles. Generally on a topic you will find a story from a left point a view and then another from a right point of view.
> 
> If you want to read a variety of points of view from left to right on a topic RCP is a great place to go.


Running the conservativecountry.net website and Facebook page a while back didn't do their "Centrist" credentials a lot of good. Hiding it and then having to admit they did it wasn't a great look either. They are better than many, but slant right for sure.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> I guess I need to get out more.


I got fact-checked today by a cashier who refused to accept a Lowe's gift card my wife got last night at Bingo simply because we were in a Dixieline Store.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> I question his sincerity, I think he's just pandering to his base.


Whatever his true motives are, I appreciate the President of the USA to think of those who are marching for life for all babies today   He gave his spot light on the unborn and I appreciate it that 100% man.  If he said nothing, I would think he didn't care, so he can;t make us both happy.  Keep the kids safe and away from Dr. Evil and his crew.  Just wait watfly, you will puke when you see the truth.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> I got fact-checked today by a cashier who refused to accept a Lowe's gift card my wife got last night at Bingo simply because we were in a Dixieline Store.


talking to yourself?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> In Espola's defense you won't see many people outdoors wearing masks in SD County.  Indoors I would say most people are wearing masks per State mandate.  There are always some that don't, but no one cares.  At restaurants, most patrons aren't playing security theatre.


I have yet to see anyone wearing a mask in the surf. I have seen bikers wearing masks which is odd.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> If you get out, you see this regularly in my neck of the woods.


That would mean he needs to leave Mom’s basement…..not gonna happen.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

soccersc said:


> It's crazy to me, that all these people who got vaccinated and told it would prevent spread are okay with how this whole thing is playing out.  "They said" get vaccinated and we will be able to go back to school, play sports, not wear mask, not get the disease, and on and on....and none of it was true. Schools and Universities have already went back virtual, games are being cancelled, mask are again mandatory, they are getting covid and they are still all in line waiting for a 3rd and 4th jab??? What? Wouldn't you think that maybe "Science" doesn't know what they are talking about? If they can't predict the short term what does that say about what will happen in the next 20 years. Crazy


Now it’s, “well no vaccine is 100% effective”. However you don’t see outbreaks of Polio or Measles naming at those who are vaccinated.  You know, the examples that were used when they first started rolling out Vax Mandates.  
The house of cards is starting to shake…


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> In Espola's defense you won't see many people outdoors wearing masks in SD County.  Indoors I would say most people are wearing masks per State mandate.  There are always some that don't, but no one cares.  At restaurants, most patrons aren't playing security theatre.


I believe it. I remember La Jolla in late November was much more relaxed. Also, I did say, "in my neck of the woods". That's how us folks in NorCal talk about our area - or, maybe not.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I guess I need to get out more.


As @watfly states, you might not see it down in San Diego County.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Now it’s, “well no vaccine is 100% effective”. However you don’t see outbreaks of Polio or Measles naming at those who are vaccinated.  You know, the examples that were used when they first started rolling out Vax Mandates.
> The house of cards is starting to shake…


"One dose is about 93% effective while two doses of the vaccine are about 97% effective at preventing measles."

-- Wikipedia on measles vaccine


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Another edition of Graceops Fables.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> "One dose is about 93% effective while two doses of the vaccine are about 97% effective at preventing measles."
> 
> -- Wikipedia on measles vaccine


So now that you’re vaccinated for measles can you still get and transmit measles?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "One dose is about 93% effective while two doses of the vaccine are about 97% effective at preventing measles."
> 
> -- Wikipedia on measles vaccine


97 percent is a far cry from near 40 percent boosted and declining towards zero


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Now it’s, “well no vaccine is 100% effective”. However you don’t see outbreaks of Polio or Measles naming at those who are vaccinated.  You know, the examples that were used when they first started rolling out Vax Mandates.
> The house of cards is starting to shake…


Do you think you would see more measles and polio outbreaks if 1/3 of people refused the vaccine?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Do you think you would see more measles and polio outbreaks if 1/3 of people refused the vaccine?


Yes, but not amongst the vaccinated.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> 97 percent is a far cry from near 40 percent boosted and declining towards zero


A girl can wish I guess.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

'Cancer is not going to wait': Patients frustrated as surgeries postponed due to COVID-19 overload
					

“Cancer surgeries should either be treated as urgent or under a separate category of essential surgeries. Under no circumstance should cancer surgery be considered elective."




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So now that you’re vaccinated for measles can you still get and transmit measles?


Yes, but because of the high vaccination rate and high effectiveness, an "outbreak" is unlikely.  It's more like background noise.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Do you think you would see more measles and polio outbreaks if 1/3 of people refused the vaccine?


Yes.  In fact, recent measles outbreaks among certain populations in America have occurred because those people for their own reasons refused to be vaccinated.


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/s999is


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Haven't kids been cheating on tests for a long time? The stories I could tell you from when I was a teacher ... Oh, wait, I'm not @NorCalDad


I don't get it.  I would actually love to hear more stories about how awful your life is with all the rampant crime around you.  That's some good stuff.


----------



## Soccermaverick

I will do anything for…. But I won’t do that!


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/s9elvm


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> It's crazy to me, that all these people who got vaccinated and told it would prevent spread are okay with how this whole thing is playing out.  "They said" get vaccinated and we will be able to go back to school, play sports, not wear mask, not get the disease, and on and on....and none of it was true. Schools and Universities have already went back virtual, games are being cancelled, mask are again mandatory, they are getting covid and they are still all in line waiting for a 3rd and 4th jab??? What? Wouldn't you think that maybe "Science" doesn't know what they are talking about? If they can't predict the short term what does that say about what will happen in the next 20 years. Crazy


Cave Man Lawyer strikes again


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> In Espola's defense you won't see many people outdoors wearing masks in SD County.  Indoors I would say most people are wearing masks per State mandate.  There are always some that don't, but no one cares.  At restaurants, most patrons aren't playing security theatre.


This is true up here as well.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> In Espola's defense you won't see many people outdoors wearing masks in SD County.  Indoors I would say most people are wearing masks per State mandate.  There are always some that don't, but no one cares.  At restaurants, most patrons aren't playing security theatre.


You don't usually in the VC either which is why it surprised me.  I just wrote off the Harvard man baby as a fluke

But then when I was picking up the car I had the dog with me and they had ping ponged the payment window back to the old location.  So I have to cross the service building which the dog doesn't like (probably a smell in there) Some guy was going off on his service advisor because they had signed him up for a service contract and didn't have the discussion with him before hand...instead they argued he'd be charged more for the visit (instead of paying in installments).  They did the same thing to me and I just said forcefully no thank you even though the service tech pleaded with me that it was a better deal (talk to me before hand next time about it instead of presenting it with the bill and maybe I'd discuss it with you).  The cashier let her mask drop underneath her nose.  A lady wearing an n95 mask  with a kid in one of those kid kn95s starts yelling at the cashier for letting it drop under her nose.  I'm stressed because this is all adding fifteen minutes to my stop and I'm due to pick up the kid in less than a half hour and have been repeatedly scolding the dog (who refuses to stay seated) to sit .  The dog goes ape and starts barking at everyone....some rando nice guy offers to hold the dog for me while I pay, waiting for the 2 people to stop screaming at the poor cashier (who didn't do anything wrong...clearly management told them to do the hard sell on the service plan and they were all just having a rough day with it).


----------



## Soccermaverick

Just got positive results today, told work, and they said be back Monday!

I will spend as much time with the boss as possible without a mask.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> You don't usually in the VC either which is why it surprised me.  I just wrote off the Harvard man baby as a fluke
> 
> But then when I was picking up the car I had the dog with me and they had ping ponged the payment window back to the old location.  So I have to cross the service building which the dog doesn't like (probably a smell in there) Some guy was going off on his service advisor because they had signed him up for a service contract and didn't have the discussion with him before hand...instead they argued he'd be charged more for the visit (instead of paying in installments).  They did the same thing to me and I just said forcefully no thank you even though the service tech pleaded with me that it was a better deal (talk to me before hand next time about it instead of presenting it with the bill and maybe I'd discuss it with you).  The cashier let her mask drop underneath her nose.  A lady wearing an n95 mask  with a kid in one of those kid kn95s starts yelling at the cashier for letting it drop under her nose.  I'm stressed because this is all adding fifteen minutes to my stop and I'm due to pick up the kid in less than a half hour and have been repeatedly scolding the dog (who refuses to stay seated) to sit .  The dog goes ape and starts barking at everyone....some rando nice guy offers to hold the dog for me while I pay, waiting for the 2 people to stop screaming at the poor cashier (who didn't do anything wrong...clearly management told them to do the hard sell on the service plan and they were all just having a rough day with it).


Friday Night Fables with Grace T.  I want more fables.....lol  Here's one.  I went to outdoor event and saw a old, over weight lady wearing a mask and sitting all by herself.  I saw her and she asked me to back away and back off 6 feet because I had no mask.  I added fable to it.  Guess the fable?


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> Friday Night Fables with Grace T.  I want more fables.....lol  Here's one.  I went to outdoor event and saw a old, over weight lady wearing a mask and sitting all by herself.  I saw her and she asked me to back away and back off 6 feet because I had no mask.  I added fable to it.  Guess the fable?


Probably vaccinated and boosted , the picture of health in 2022


----------



## Ellejustus

*The attack on Meat Loaf from the far left crazies is insane.  The dude lived life his way and it got him,  Vax or no vax, he was going to die.  *

*Meat Loaf mocked by left for vaccine, lockdown opposition hours after death: 'Pandemic asshole'

Meat Loaf added, "If I die, I die, but I’m not going to be controlled." *

*Meat Loaf's family below.  RIP bro and thanks for the music *


----------



## whatithink

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Now it’s, “well no vaccine is 100% effective”. However you don’t see outbreaks of Polio or Measles naming at those who are vaccinated.  You know, the examples that were used when they first started rolling out Vax Mandates.
> The house of cards is starting to shake…


The targets for polio & measles were 97% of the population vaccinated to eliminate them in the US. Those rates were eventually met and exceeded and they were "eradicated". There were still some polio cases found, but these all were non-nationals who were not vaccinated. Measles has made a comeback as the anti-vaccination movement has gained traction. People thought they could avoid getting vaccinated, as everyone else was vaccinated, i.e. be one of the 3% - sound plan until its more than 3% apparently.


----------



## Grace T.

So China is still hung up on zero covid and because some hamsters tested positive in a store are trying to cull all hamsters bought in December or later. People have taken to hiding their hamsters from the authorities.
1. Poor hamsters
2. Seriously why is China still hung up on zero covid.  Remember these are the folks dad4 thinks did a lot of things right
3. God help em when some poor dog tests positive. Given the world is unmoved by uigars maybe that will move em. There was backlash when they beat that one dog to death
4. They’ve expanded their covid screens to other small rodents like rabbits, gerbils and g pigs. Yet surprisingly they are ignoring the rats which are no doubt a far bigger problem.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

whatithink said:


> The targets for polio & measles were 97% of the population vaccinated to eliminate them in the US. Those rates were eventually met and exceeded and they were "eradicated". There were still some polio cases found, but these all were non-nationals who were not vaccinated. Measles has made a comeback as the anti-vaccination movement has gained traction. People thought they could avoid getting vaccinated, as everyone else was vaccinated, i.e. be one of the 3% - sound plan until its more than 3% apparently.


Could that be because once your vaccinated you can’t contract or spread Measles?

97% Vax rate doesn’t mean much if the vax’d Can catch and transmit at a high rate.


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> Just got positive results today, told work, and they said be back Monday!
> 
> I will spend as much time with the boss as possible without a mask.


Thanks for your service.

The rest of us Tier 1A vaccinated workers, understand why you would return to work.  Why wouldn’t you?… oh! You would be required to be masked if you were! Maybe you’re not what you’ve claimed to be in the past.

Now go make fun of more dead people, seems like ‘your bag baby’.


----------



## N00B

Ellejustus said:


> *The dude lived life his way
> 
> thanks for the music *


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


>


Thanks for reminding me how bad Meatloaf was (My mom's wasn't too bad with enough ketchup)


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> Thanks for reminding me how bad Meatloaf was (My mom's wasn't too bad with enough ketchup)


Meatloaf is a tricky subject


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Do you think you would see more measles and polio outbreaks if 1/3 of people refused the vaccine?


People don't refuse it because it has been proven to work.  Taking the covid shot is the same as taking a flu shot, you still have a good chance of getting sick.  Way different type of vaccines, but those are more of the lies that were spread and unfortunately people like you still believe


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> Cave Man Lawyer strikes again


Okay, Always Wrong Guy who tries to strike back and goes to insults because he has no validation for his own beliefs. Admit you don't know what you are talking about and just come clean like they did in the UK.  You will feel a sense of relief, you realize when you squeeze so tight it actually ends up slipping right through the figures.


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> Okay, Always Wrong Guy who tries to strike back and goes to insults because he has no validation for his own beliefs. Admit you don't know what you are talking about and just come clean like they did in the UK.  You will feel a sense of relief, you realize when you squeeze so tight it actually ends up slipping right through the figures.


"I'm just an unfrozen cave man.  I don't know how numbers work or what this thing you call data is, but what I do know is the vaccine is a joke and isn't helping anyone"


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> "I'm just an unfrozen cave man.  I don't know how numbers work or what this thing you call data is, but what I do know is the vaccine is a joke and isn't helping anyone"


A little red herring for you  Since you are uncapable of actually discussing what I have told you, I now realize you only understand what those in authority tell you and clearly are unable to make a legitimate defense of your own beliefs


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> I don't get it.


That's expected.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> A little red herring for you  Since you are uncapable of actually discussing what I have told you, I now realize you only understand what those in authority tell you and clearly are unable to make a legitimate defense of your own beliefs


You brought accusations to the table, but no facts and no links to facts.

Don‘t be surprised people don’t engage with it.  No one will discuss it, because there is nothing there to discuss.

If you actually want to know whether the vaccine works against the current variant, here is a study evaluating the effectiveness of Pfizer against omicron.  This one puts it at 70% effective at preventing hospitalization, assuming two doses, after 6 months.  



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> You brought accusations to the table, but no facts and no links to facts.
> 
> Don‘t be surprised people don’t engage with it.  No one will discuss it, because there is nothing there to discuss.
> 
> If you actually want to know whether the vaccine works against the current variant, here is a study evaluating the effectiveness of Pfizer against omicron.  This one puts it at 70% effective at preventing hospitalization, assuming two doses, after 6 months.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270


So 70% against hospitalization is enough to ostracize, fire and restrict the free lifestyle of those who choose not to get it?

that’s a dangerously low bar to set.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So 70% against hospitalization is enough to ostracize, fire and restrict the free lifestyle of those who choose not to get it?
> 
> that’s a dangerously low bar to set.


So you feel that a “free lifestyle”, whatever that means, free of any restrictions trumps others wish to attempt to avoid a virus?

On another note, does this ideal of an unfettered “free lifestyle” extend to everyone or just those that think a certain way?


----------



## Soccermaverick

Ellejustus said:


> *The attack on Meat Loaf from the far left crazies is insane.  The dude lived life his way and it got him,  Vax or no vax, he was going to die.  *
> 
> *Meat Loaf mocked by left for vaccine, lockdown opposition hours after death: 'Pandemic asshole'
> 
> Meat Loaf added, "If I die, I die, but I’m not going to be controlled." *
> 
> *Meat Loaf's family below.  RIP bro and thanks for the music *
> 
> View attachment 12738




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/s9fy47


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccermaverick said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/s9fy47


Leave Meat Loaf alone Mavs.  Check these facts out.  I told you I was immune and I feel so strong!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

Catturd- "If I had to cast Satan in a movie ... it'd be impossible to find anyone better for the role. Picture says it all."


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/jmge1n


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/naqnj3


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccermaverick said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/naqnj3


Unhealthy Vax and unhealthy Anti-Vax human is the real issue.  Look at how obese the dude is.  That's called, "I have at least *four* underlying health issues."


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/p9kfxz


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/hrsqs1


----------



## Ellejustus

Hey Mavs, Golden Gate, NoCaldad, Husker, Espola, The Long game, End of the Line, EOTL and Mr. Evil, guess what?  I met her finally.  I got to dance with her.  I saw all the pics.  Amazing beauty and one who loved me for 9 months so I can talk with you guys and share the TRUTH with you.  The March yesterday for life was amazing.  I know you guys feed off death, fear and darkness and that is by choice by the way.  I have nothing to say except we live by the choices we make.  I dedicate this song to the most beautiful woman I have ever met.  I love you Miss Kirk


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/s0trqm


----------



## Ellejustus

*1/22/2022 *


----------



## whatithink

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Could that be because once your vaccinated you can’t contract or spread Measles?
> 
> 97% Vax rate doesn’t mean much if the vax’d Can catch and transmit at a high rate.


93% of those who get a single dose MMR develop immunity, 97% for second - so yes, you can still get measles if vaccinated, although this is a remote possibility because of the levels of vaccination.

Its are also different to Covid, so you can't really compare.


----------



## Ellejustus

whatithink said:


> 93% of those who get a single dose MMR develop immunity, 97% for second - so yes, you can still get measles if vaccinated, although this is a remote possibility because of the levels of vaccination.
> 
> Its are also different to Covid, so you can't really compare.


I am 6x stronger then the vaxxed, that's a fact Jack, from CDC fact checker.  Add the FACT that I weigh 180 and have a size 33 waist ((almost 32)) and abs for my wife to look at, I feel super human and I feel loved like no other human.  All these years I felt abandon and left on the porch.  That was a lie.  I was told by some teachers that abortion is the only way, the only truth and the only way to be free from a kid.  Another big lie.  They also tried to tell me God does not exist ((liars)) and that Yeshua is made up story of some Guru from long ago.  So many lies from Father Liar.


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/rrjzhu


----------



## Ellejustus

OC News

While hospitals are still under strain from an i*nflux of patients and staff shortages* due to quick spreading omicron variant ((and those nurses and Docs who said no to jab and got fired)), they’re *now seeing a marked increase in patients who have COVID-19, but were admitted for some other medical issue.

That’s a change from earlier waves *of the pandemic, when a majority of people entering hospitals with COVID-19 had trouble breathing or low blood oxygen levels and often needed respiratory support.

Also different is how the current omicron variant appears to affect most people, resulting in fewer falling seriously ill. But don’t take that to mean the health care system is in the clear or that people should dismiss the virus, medical experts say.

And *regardless of what let to their hospitalization*, statistics on how many patients are infected are still an important indicator of where *we are in the pandemic *–


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you feel that a “free lifestyle”, whatever that means, free of any restrictions trumps others wish to attempt to avoid a virus?
> 
> On another note, does this ideal of an unfettered “free lifestyle” extend to everyone or just those that think a certain way?


Let me help free lifestyle = how we lived in Jan 2020.


----------



## Ellejustus

Darkness is looking for a place to hide folks and nowhere to hide in the LIGHT.  The LIGHT & TRUTH is now 100% here.  All we have is choice now. Find the True light in you or live in your dark shadow of fear.  EGO is ok I have learned.  It come's with the human DNA.  We need to rid ourselves of our shadow, the judge and the Liar.  Someone dreamed hell you guys and made that up to scare us.  Think about sending your dd or ds or both plus your wife to hell because she or they didn't obey you and love you the way you wanted to be loved.  So because she ((they)) fell short of God's demands of loving him, God will send them to hell?  My dd is so beautiful and one big light and no way she's going to hell.  Hell is what we make here on earth and some man's made up nightmare for those who don;t obey the Alpha dogs demands. God is love and light and each one of you are a light particle from God.  This is also called magnetism or a magnet of love.  God is one big magnet and those who choose love will go directly to the light and be "magnetized."  Turn on your light.  The key to open love, is love.  You guys can do it.  Listen to this song somewhere alone.  "Bliss "I AM" is amazing song.  I AM complete, I AM loved, I AM Light, I AM Beautiful is amazing song and I AM fired up because I AM Awesome!!!  I love MOTHER and I made my peace with her.  I was pissed off and tired, I won;t lie.  Not no more.  I am 100% light now.  Try this song out you guys.  Tears are good to shed.  I promise if you listen to this whole song it will move your soul to the light in you.


----------



## Grace T.

Good thread/article...there's little evidence boosting does more benefit than harm in younger men, moderna should be off the table for them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484711723558862851








						Public Health’s Truth Problem | City Journal
					

Throughout the pandemic, medical and scientific institutions have disseminated dubious advice, flawed studies, and even outright falsehoods.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## Grace T.

Some working mom colleagues and I were talking about this yesterday.  We were all grateful not to have day care aged children.









						COVID Parenting Has Passed the Point of Absurdity
					

This was always unsustainable. Now it’s simply impossible.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484868809416753153


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484868809416753153


Boom & Amen!!!  Protect the kids is the only way out of this.  If we can;t help kids, then we get the karma and the millstones that come with not taking care of the children, the orphans, the widows and the elderly.  Look at what they did to these groups the last two years.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Let me help free lifestyle = how we lived in Jan 2020.


How we lived in Jan 2020?  Sounds an awful lot like "pretend nothing is happening."


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> How we lived in Jan 2020?  Sounds an awful lot like "pretend nothing is happening."


Pandemic of Bureaucracy!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

This is interesting

More than a quarter of the Covid-19 pandemic's total cases in the United States have been reported in the past month, during the Omicron surge, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.









						After the Omicron wave, here's what experts say could come next in 2022
					

Picture a not-too-distant future when you can book that summer trip to Italy or you don't have to remember to take off your mask for graduation photos. After the past 25 months, forgetting the pandemic for even a little while may sound like a fantasy -- after all, the coronavirus has gotten our...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> How we lived in Jan 2020?  Sounds an awful lot like "pretend nothing is happening."


Won’t stop you from wearing your mask in public for the rest of your life.  You are free to do so.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/qMGyzwY


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/f3K7pab


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/5935Cn1


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How we lived in Jan 2020?  Sounds an awful lot like "pretend nothing is happening."


Just because you live in your preferred introverted reality doesn’t mean the rest of us are happy with it

Happy two year anniversary to everyone btw. Two years since covid first arrived in the us and the first restrictions put in place.  Yay!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Wow, this Omicron virus must be delaying prescriptions where GG and his disciples get theirs filled. Hope those folks get better and back to work soon.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Some working mom colleagues and I were talking about this yesterday.  We were all grateful not to have day care aged children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Parenting Has Passed the Point of Absurdity
> 
> 
> This was always unsustainable. Now it’s simply impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


The leaders of these states proclaim with the utmost sincerity that they are "protecting the children". Irrational fear and power are a very bad combination.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Just because you live in your preferred introverted reality doesn’t mean the rest of us are happy with it
> 
> Happy two year anniversary to everyone btw. Two years since covid first arrived in the us and the first restrictions put in place.  Yay!


I've stated it a few times already, but it bears repeating. For many people in tech (and others who get to work from home), their actual day-to-day lifestyle has gotten better if you take away the fear of COVID - no commute, pajamas all day with an occasional change to a "work" shirt for Zoom, more delivery options than ever, barely any in-person human interaction and direct deposit is still going strong. Nirvana. Of course, they usually lead with "I am doing my part to contain the virus" and find themselves quite noble.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> I've stated it a few times already, but it bears repeating. For many people in tech (and others who get to work from home), their actual day-to-day lifestyle has gotten better if you take away the fear of COVID - no commute, pajamas all day with an occasional change to a "work" shirt for Zoom, more delivery options than ever, barely any in-person human interaction and direct deposit is still going strong. Nirvana. Of course, they usually lead with "I am doing my part to contain the virus" and find themselves quite noble.


Probably unwise to repeat something you're wrong about. 

Many in tech already worked remotely pre-pandemic in some capacity.  Nothing new to those folks.  For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy.  If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand. 

And no,  nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly.  This is some manifestation in your head that you should get checked out.  It aligns with the paranoia you have around shoplifters.


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/comments/sa37yd


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Yes.  In fact, recent measles outbreaks among certain populations in America have occurred because those people for their own reasons refused to be vaccinated.


This is true; here is an example:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16392073/

MMR is an attenuated vaccine, which is part of its high VE.  As you can see from comments here though, even with as high a VE as one can possibly hope for fatalism will intervene.  VE is not high enough, so doesn't matter.  Then show that even a low VE can reduce total caseload, which is significant.  So then the fatalism transforms to well, not enough people are vaccinated, so it still doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Probably unwise to repeat something you're wrong about.
> 
> Many in tech already worked remotely pre-pandemic in some capacity.  Nothing new to those folks.  For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy.  If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand.
> 
> And no,  nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly.  This is some manifestation in your head that you should get checked out.  It aligns with the paranoia you have around shoplifters.


Hahaha! You are a worthless shill trying to protect those in political power right now by telling people that what they see isn't happening. I see you conveniently left out the part about the armed robbery. I noted at the time things were degrading in terms of security. Not long after my wife sees the obvious shoplifting, there's an armed robbery. One less troll to read.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! You are a worthless shill trying to protect those in political power right now by telling people that what they see isn't happening. I see you conveniently left out the part about the armed robbery. I noted at the time things were degrading in terms of security. Not long after my wife sees the obvious shoplifting, there's an armed robbery. One less troll to read.


Armed robbery?  I must have missed something.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! You are a worthless shill trying to protect those in political power right now by telling people that what they see isn't happening. I see you conveniently left out the part about the armed robbery. I noted at the time things were degrading in terms of security. Not long after my wife sees the obvious shoplifting, there's an armed robbery. One less troll to read.


Yup, I'm part of the big conspiracy -- in fact I just landed my plane that released chemtrails.  I'm a plant on this message board.  It's all part of the master plan.  

spoiler alert: Big foot is real and it was all part of a government research project.  You can take that to the bank.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Yup, I'm part of the big conspiracy -- in fact I just landed my plane that released chemtrails.  I'm a plant on this message board.  It's all part of the master plan.
> 
> spoiler alert: Big foot is real and it was all part of a government research project.  You can take that to the bank.


Me, too.  I post under 7 different names on this forum, covering all wings of the political spectrum, some of them so crazy that I have them on ignore.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Let me help free lifestyle = how we lived in Jan 2020.


Things have changed, they always do. Adapt and overcome . . . or sit on the sideline and pout.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Won’t stop you from wearing your mask in public for the rest of your life.  You are free to do so.


I certainly hope prep cooks, chefs and servers continue to do so. Besides that, why do you care so much about others trying to protect themselves and those around them? Control issues?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

[


Hüsker Dü said:


> I certainly hope prep cooks, chefs and servers continue to do so. Besides that, why do you care so much about others trying to protect themselves and those around them? Control issues?


That’s your gig not mine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> [
> 
> That’s your gig not mine.


Nice try.


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> Yup, I'm part of the big conspiracy -- in fact I just landed my plane that released chemtrails.  I'm a plant on this message board.  It's all part of the master plan.
> 
> spoiler alert: Big foot is real and it was all part of a government research project.  You can take that to the bank.


And right to the Strawman   You make me laugh...its like the elementary version of how to use fallacies


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Yup, I'm part of the big conspiracy -- in fact I just landed my plane that released chemtrails.  I'm a plant on this message board.  It's all part of the master plan.
> 
> spoiler alert: Big foot is real and it was all part of a government research project.  You can take that to the bank.


That's funny...you are not part of any conspiracy. But you do come across as someone who lives a very priviledged  lifestlye, a lifestyle that has gotten more comfortable over the last two years.  Mabye I'm wrong but that's what your typed words convey.  

You are not alone. There is an entire segement of society, especially in your neck of the woods that are  better off now than they were a few years ago, a stark difference to those less priviledged.  Mandates and policies from on high tend to favor some people and hurt many people.  

I may be completely wrong but I doubt it.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I certainly hope prep cooks, chefs and servers continue to do so. Besides that, why do you care so much about others trying to protect themselves and those around them? Control issues?


So you are on board with moving on, living with the virus?  But, if everyone is vaccinated and testing becomes more robuts, why would food and beverage workers be mandated to wear masks?  They didn't wear them before during flu season? 

Should they wear N95s?   should we outlaw cloth masks?  Should we mass produce environmentally safer surgical masks.  Where does this end?  How does this end.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Me, too.  I post under 7 different names on this forum, covering all wings of the political spectrum, some of them so crazy that I have them on ignore.


wait, what....


----------



## Grace T.

The nation of Kiribati is a tiny group of islands in the pacific. According to the BBC, a flight from Fiji 36 of the 54 people on the flight tested positive for covid.  All people on that flight were fully vaxxed.  Many of them were boosted (there were 2 children under 12 on the flight…neither of them fell ill). An outbreak followed at the quarantine center and has now broken out into the community with a handful of community spread cases. Kiribati is very poor and vaccination has been poor due to availability which is why they have the vaccine mandate to go there.  They also have a bit of an obesity epidemic nationally.  They just announced their first national lockdown as a result

for the record if the vaccines can’t keep a plane from being 36/54 people on a plane from being covid positive, they aren’t substantially reducing transmission.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

soccersc said:


> And right to the Strawman   You make me laugh...its like the elementary version of how to use fallacies


He's obviously not a paid shill. Otherwise, someone has a terribly flawed business model.


----------



## Ellejustus

GREAT INTERVIEW WITH MI DR. ROBERT MALONE!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Desert Hound

We are going to get punished by the Can/US gov mandates on truckers. Supply chain is already iffy for some items/area.

What will happen on the border will make it much worse.

A related story to that.









						Elevators working in reverse as Alberta cattle feeders face increasingly desperate feed shortage
					

Corn imports into Western Canada from the U.S. have risen dramatically following the 2021 drought, but cattle feeders in Alberta say unpredictable shipments are not keeping up with demand. In some cases, feedlots say they are scraping together the last of their feed supplies, and are banking on...




					amp.realagriculture.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Lucy, you got some spining to do girlfriend.  This whole time I could have been on the front lines helping my fellow Americans out but nope, I was told to STFU, kneel to their ruler, wear a mask, get jabbed and obey their master.  I only have One Master and I came to help the planet, not get kicked out of all the fun life here on earth has to offer.  Were going to have a big party soon you guys.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> We are going to get punished by the Can/US gov mandates on truckers. Supply chain is already iffy for some items/area.
> 
> What will happen on the border will make it much worse.
> 
> A related story to that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elevators working in reverse as Alberta cattle feeders face increasingly desperate feed shortage
> 
> 
> Corn imports into Western Canada from the U.S. have risen dramatically following the 2021 drought, but cattle feeders in Alberta say unpredictable shipments are not keeping up with demand. In some cases, feedlots say they are scraping together the last of their feed supplies, and are banking on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.realagriculture.com


War is going to break out in Europe shortly (looks like a matter of days now).  The us and the eu have been pulling out nonessential personnel and family from the Ukraine. Only question now is how far will Russia go and how much damage happens and how much it spins out of control. The Ukraine has the missile technology to land non nuclear missles on Moscow and Russia has the capacity to level Kiev. Possibilities range from Biden’s minor border incursions to a full blown polish intervention that sucks in NATO. 

it won’t directly impact our food supply lines here in north america but logistics are about to get a lot harder around the world particularly after the currency hits that take place and the oil and gas problems


----------



## Ellejustus

Wars and rumor of wars is going to be insane.  The news is so off and not honest at all.  You see this below?  It's funny but not really funny.  This is the problem.  Disciples for Christ vs the Non-believing secular world.  Can the two come together instead of judging each other?  One side wants all the guns.  If we can get these two sides to back off each other and just let people believe in freedom first and then their God, then we can all get along.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> That's funny...you are not part of any conspiracy. But you do come across as someone who lives a very priviledged  lifestlye, a lifestyle that has gotten more comfortable over the last two years.  Mabye I'm wrong but that's what your typed words convey.
> 
> You are not alone. There is an entire segement of society, especially in your neck of the woods that are  better off now than they were a few years ago, a stark difference to those less priviledged.  Mandates and policies from on high tend to favor some people and hurt many people.
> 
> I may be completely wrong but I doubt it.


Let's take apart his original answer to my post.

Me: "For many people in tech ..."
NCD: "For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy."
--> Well, I didn't think it was as high as half but that certainly supports my post.

NCD: "If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand." 
--> Is he attempting to gain credence through this? Considering these campuses have been closed since the pandemic, I'm not sure what it accomplishes in terms of an argument.

NCD: "And no, nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly."
--> He's omniscient
--> Noble: having or showing very fine or admirable qualities a noble deed. I'd say @dad4 believes his actions have admirable qualities versus the unwashed masses who aren't Korean or Mormon enough. He's one of a tiny number of people who happen to be on this board. This disproves his statement by counterexample.

You picked out his strawman argument.

I don't believe it's a conspiracy. He has his viewpoints and will gaslight, minimize, and strawman to support his views. Don't expect any critical thinking. We'll see this more often as the midterm elections get closer and those who worry about the balance of power become more desperate.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Let's take apart his original answer to my post.
> 
> Me: "For many people in tech ..."
> NCD: "For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy."
> --> Well, I didn't think it was as high as half but that certainly supports my post.
> 
> NCD: "If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand."
> --> Is he attempting to gain credence through this? Considering these campuses have been closed since the pandemic, I'm not sure what it accomplishes in terms of an argument.
> 
> NCD: "And no, nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly."
> --> He's omniscient
> --> Noble: having or showing very fine or admirable qualities a noble deed. I'd say @dad4 believes his actions have admirable qualities versus the unwashed masses who aren't Korean or Mormon enough. He's one of a tiny number of people who happen to be on this board. This disproves his statement by counterexample.
> 
> You picked out his strawman argument.
> 
> I don't believe it's a conspiracy. He has his viewpoints and will gaslight, minimize, and strawman to support his views. Don't expect any critical thinking. We'll see this more often as the midterm elections get closer and those who worry about the balance of power become more desperate.


I love how you put this back & forth together with NCD.  I learned from you.  I bet 100% you were an awesome teacher and you would have helped me improve my skills.  Thanks for teaching and I know why you got out.  Do your kids get taught by you or are they taught down the street at school?  You dont have to share.  I love you man


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> Let's take apart his original answer to my post.
> 
> Me: "For many people in tech ..."
> NCD: "For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy."
> --> Well, I didn't think it was as high as half but that certainly supports my post.
> 
> NCD: "If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand."
> --> Is he attempting to gain credence through this? Considering these campuses have been closed since the pandemic, I'm not sure what it accomplishes in terms of an argument.
> 
> NCD: "And no, nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly."
> --> He's omniscient
> --> Noble: having or showing very fine or admirable qualities a noble deed. I'd say @dad4 believes his actions have admirable qualities versus the unwashed masses who aren't Korean or Mormon enough. He's one of a tiny number of people who happen to be on this board. This disproves his statement by counterexample.
> 
> You picked out his strawman argument.
> 
> I don't believe it's a conspiracy. He has his viewpoints and will gaslight, minimize, and strawman to support his views. Don't expect any critical thinking. We'll see this more often as the midterm elections get closer and those who worry about the balance of power become more desperate.


Oops, sorry. It was @soccersc who picked out the strawman argument.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Me, too.  I post under 7 different names on this forum, covering all wings of the political spectrum, some of them so crazy that I have them on ignore.



Wow....a partial TRUTH.
I'm shocked.
Adam Espola Schiff admits he has Dissociative identity disorder.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> That's funny...you are not part of any conspiracy. But you do come across as someone who lives a very priviledged  lifestlye, a lifestyle that has gotten more comfortable over the last two years.  Mabye I'm wrong but that's what your typed words convey.
> 
> You are not alone. There is an entire segement of society, especially in your neck of the woods that are  better off now than they were a few years ago, a stark difference to those less priviledged.  Mandates and policies from on high tend to favor some people and hurt many people.
> 
> I may be completely wrong but I doubt it.


I'm no more privileged than anyone else who spends 24x7 of their time on a niche Internet message board like yourself.  I suspect your hands are softer than mine for what it's worth.....I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


----------



## N00B

NorCalDad said:


> I'm no more privileged than anyone else who spends 24x7 of their time on a niche Internet message board like yourself.  I suspect your hands are softer than mine for what it's worth.....I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> I'm no more privileged than anyone else who spends 24x7 of their time on a niche Internet message board like yourself.  I suspect your hands are softer than mine for what it's worth.....I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


Nicely done.  I know you don't spend 24-7 on here, neither do  I.  You don't know what I do for a living and likewise.  I don't really care what your opinion is or what picture of me and other posters you may have in your head.  I suspect you don't really think too much about that. . But here is the difference - your references to where you live and the inherent superiority and correctness of your opinion drips off of most of your posts.  I get it, be proud of your community.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> War is going to break out in Europe shortly (looks like a matter of days now).  The us and the eu have been pulling out nonessential personnel and family from the Ukraine. Only question now is how far will Russia go and how much damage happens and how much it spins out of control. The Ukraine has the missile technology to land non nuclear missles on Moscow and Russia has the capacity to level Kiev. Possibilities range from Biden’s minor border incursions to a full blown polish intervention that sucks in NATO.
> 
> it won’t directly impact our food supply lines here in north america but logistics are about to get a lot harder around the world particularly after the currency hits that take place and the oil and gas problems


The possible route to a peaceful (for a time, at least) conclusion is that Putin manipulates Ukrainian internal politics until he gets a more tolerant leader in charge there.  It is, after all, a skill he has demonstrated in the past.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/3Gd9qWr


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> And right to the Strawman   You make me laugh...its like the elementary version of how to use fallacies


Whoosh! Right on by ya! Lol!


----------



## Desert Hound

Ah transparency.

Shielded from liability they also want to shielded from scrutiny.

"Meanwhile, The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had asked a judge to give it 75 years to produce all the data concerning the Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine."








						British Medical Journal Demands Immediate Release of All COVID-19 Vaccine, Treatment Data
					

The British Medical Journal (BMJ) has demanded the full and immediate release of all data related to COVID-19 vaccines ...




					m.theepochtimes.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Ah transparency.
> 
> Shielded from liability they also want to shielded from scrutiny.
> 
> "Meanwhile, The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had asked a judge to give it 75 years to produce all the data concerning the Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> British Medical Journal Demands Immediate Release of All COVID-19 Vaccine, Treatment Data
> 
> 
> The British Medical Journal (BMJ) has demanded the full and immediate release of all data related to COVID-19 vaccines ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.theepochtimes.com


On the Media Bias Chart, Epoch Times is slightly loonier and less reliable than Fox News.









						Static Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media
					

The current version of the official Media Bias Chart. Get a licensed copy for use in educational settings or other presentations




					adfontesmedia.com


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Nicely done.  I know you don't spend 24-7 on here, neither do  I.  You don't know what I do for a living and likewise.  I don't really care what your opinion is or what picture of me and other posters you may have in your head.  I suspect you don't really think too much about that. . But here is the difference - your references to where you live and the inherent superiority and correctness of your opinion drips off of most of your posts.  I get it, be proud of your community.


How are you and I any different?  Have you read your posts and the absolutism they convey?  I mean I encourage you to go back read posts by yourself and other self proclaimed "Team Reality" folks.  It's not pretty.  To quote you "You don't know what I do for a living and likewise.".  You are absolutely correct here, yet you're the one who presumed I live a privileged lifestyle and even expressed certainty with that view with "I may be completely wrong but I doubt it." Sooooo...yeah.

I bring up Bay Area communities because they have high vaccination rates.  This has nothing to do with superiority.  I get that you all are anti-mandate.  I get that.  Where I take issue is when you all argue against vaccines to make your case.  I think that is misguided and uninformed.  There are other legitimate arguments against mandates to be made.  The incessant down playing of the effectiveness of the vaccine is exhausting.  You couple those arguments with the fact that I know, given a highly vaccinated area, things have actually worked out rather well.


----------



## Ellejustus

Why Good People OBEY Harmful Mandates
					

Why Good People OBEY Harmful Mandates https://www.trumpseason.com/starblazer.html Trump/patriot-friendly free speech social media & video sites... - https://xephula.com/blogs/406213/Trump-patriot-friendly-free-speech-social-media-video-sites




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> Probably unwise to repeat something you're wrong about.
> 
> Many in tech already worked remotely pre-pandemic in some capacity.  Nothing new to those folks.  For every tech person that's happy about working remotely I can find you another that is unhappy.  If you've never been on the Apple, Google, or Facebook campuses you just wouldn't understand.
> 
> And no,  nobody is going around claiming they're acting nobly.  This is some manifestation in your head that you should get checked out.  It aligns with the paranoia you have around shoplifters.


The truth hurt.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> On the Media Bias Chart, Epoch Times is slightly loonier and less reliable than Fox News.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Static Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> The current version of the official Media Bias Chart. Get a licensed copy for use in educational settings or other presentations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


What did they get wrong in the article?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484868809416753153


This is significant. Of course in FL, where many leaders who support these mandates go for a break, people are like, "What are they talking about?"


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> What did they get wrong in the article?


Paywall


----------



## Ellejustus

*Gonzaga suspends John Stockton's men's basketball tickets for failure to follow COVID-19 mask mandate*

From John.  This guy was a baller, let's here what he has to say.

*"Basically*, it came down to, they were *asking me to wear a mask* to the games and being a public figure, someone a little bit more visible, I stuck out in the crowd a little bit," Stockton told the newspaper. "And therefore they* received complaint*s and felt like from whatever the *higher-ups *-- those weren't discussed, *but from whatever it was higher up *-- they were going to have to either ask me to wear a mask or they were going to suspend my tickets."

The "higher ups" are the snobs from Nocal who are either afraid or being snobs or both.  Elitist at their finest.  if you don't follow our mandates, you can't come here anymore or play soccer.  I told you this group owned & controlled soccer.  It's all over.  We got it all.  It will take time to clean this mess up though.  So sad to see the division but this is time to not comply to these lame rules.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Paywall


The article in question is an opinion piece.









						Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now
					

Data should be fully and immediately available for public scrutiny  In the pages of The BMJ a decade ago, in the middle of a different pandemic, it came to light that governments around the world had spent billions stockpiling antivirals for influenza that had not been shown to reduce the risk...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> How are you and I any different?  Have you read your posts and the absolutism they convey?  I mean I encourage you to go back read posts by yourself and other self proclaimed "Team Reality" folks.  It's not pretty.  To quote you "You don't know what I do for a living and likewise.".  You are absolutely correct here, yet you're the one who presumed I live a privileged lifestyle and even expressed certainty with that view with "I may be completely wrong but I doubt it." Sooooo...yeah.
> 
> I bring up Bay Area communities because they have high vaccination rates.  This has nothing to do with superiority.  I get that you all are anti-mandate.  I get that.  Where I take issue is when you all argue against vaccines to make your case.  I think that is misguided and uninformed.  There are other legitimate arguments against mandates to be made.  The incessant down playing of the effectiveness of the vaccine is exhausting.  You couple those arguments with the fact that I know, given a highly vaccinated area, things have actually worked out rather well.


i agree with you that vaccines seem to be effective. But I also wonder why they stopped posting vaccinated vs unvaccinated on many Covid dashboards. In OC they unvaccinated started at 95, then 90, then down to 80, then no more displaying. It is pretty clear they do not want the public to see the numbers show that vaccinated people are getting the virus at a higher rate than yff he e unvaccinated, even though as you have well stated that it will eventually be inevitable if vaccination rates increase.
So I get your issue, so here is mine. It is clear now more than ever that it is possible to get the virus, spread the virus and be hospitalized if you have been vaccinated or not. So, why do vaccinated people care    If people don’t want to get a flu/Covid shot? The only reason left is that it fills up the hospitals. But that is hardly true. The SacBee reported that 24% were taking by Covid patients. That means 75% were taken by others like obsess overweight, diabetic, smokers, and drug related issues. We can stop all those hospitalizations as well, obesity has increased 20% over the last 5 years, but we don’t regulate that? I just don’t see how some can pick and choose what is mandated. I don’t eat fast food or drink so I don’t think anyone else should either but I’m not complaining about there being a mandate for it


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The article in question is an opinion piece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now
> 
> 
> Data should be fully and immediately available for public scrutiny  In the pages of The BMJ a decade ago, in the middle of a different pandemic, it came to light that governments around the world had spent billions stockpiling antivirals for influenza that had not been shown to reduce the risk...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com


So what part of the opinion piece do you disagree with? 

- That they should release the study information related to testing of the various vaccines? 
- Or do you disagree with the fact that the FDA doesn't want to release certain information for 75 years? 

And which of the above is right wing and not worthy of discussion? 

Do you prefer not to know what their testing shows? And what rational basis would the FDA have for asking for a 75 yr delay in releasing information?


----------



## Desert Hound

_A striking feature of the excerpts released in the committee’s January 11, 2022 letter is that *the virologists had little doubt that the virus bore the fingerprints of manipulation.* The focus of their attention was a genetic element called a furin cleavage site. This short snippet of genetic material is what makes the virus so infectious for human cells. Scientists sometimes add this element to laboratory viruses to make them more virulent, but in nature, viruses usually acquire runs of genetic material like this by swapping them with other members of their family. *The furin cleavage site in the Covid virus sticks out like a sore thumb because no other known member of its family—a group called Sarbecoviruses—possesses a furin cleavage site. *So how did the virus acquire it?









						A Covid Origin Conspiracy? | City Journal
					

Newly released emails make more plausible the contention that Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins presided over the suppression of the lab-leak theory for political reasons.




					www.city-journal.org
				



_


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Where I take issue is when you all argue against vaccines to make your case.  I think that is misguided and uninformed.  There are other legitimate arguments against mandates to be made.  The incessant down playing of the effectiveness of the vaccine is exhausting.  You couple those arguments with the fact that I know, given a highly vaccinated area, things have actually worked out rather well.


You've simplified my (and likely others on here) view on vaccines and mandates.  No where have I stated my opposition to vaccines.  I'm vaccinated, my employees are vaccinated, 75% of my family is vaccinated.  I've had a breakthrough infection, a very mild one at that.  No one in my family is boosted and will not get boosted.  My employees will choose whether they get boosted.

The data is clear and supports the efficacy in preventing severe disease and death, especially those ove 65. My issue isn't even with people who blindly follow policy makers driven by political aspiration. It's evident to me that science and logic has been abandoned or mabye even lost to politics and fear.

The vaccines do not: provide complete protection to the vaccinated, confer immunity on par or better than prior infection, and do not prevent transmission.  If all of this is true, then mandates don't make sense, the logic fails.

There are plenty of novel therapututics available that reduce risk of hospitalization and death by 50-90%.  Exisiting drugs repurposed drugs have been proven to be more effective. And our health care systems have evolved in executing critical care for covid.  Are our health systems being challenged right now?  Sure.  They always are this time of the year.  COVID has challenged them more - more involved in treating covid patients, availability of staff, etc.  

At this point, mandates don't make sense, plenty of reasons why.  Choice is a good idea though.  Good health is hard to mandate.  Even terminally ill patients dont' listen to their providers.  Has always been like that.  Really good bedside manners and education usually work better than mandates.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> You've simplified my (and likely others on here) view on vaccines and mandates.  No where have I stated my opposition to vaccines.  I'm vaccinated, my employees are vaccinated, 75% of my family is vaccinated.  I've had a breakthrough infection, a very mild one at that.  No one in my family is boosted and will not get boosted.  My employees will choose whether they get boosted.
> 
> The data is clear and supports the efficacy in preventing severe disease and death, especially those ove 65. My issue isn't even with people who blindly follow policy makers driven by political aspiration. It's evident to me that science and logic has been abandoned or mabye even lost to politics and fear.
> 
> The vaccines do not: provide complete protection to the vaccinated, confer immunity on par or better than prior infection, and do not prevent transmission.  If all of this is true, then mandates don't make sense, the logic fails.
> 
> There are plenty of novel therapututics available that reduce risk of hospitalization and death by 50-90%.  Exisiting drugs repurposed drugs have been proven to be more effective. And our health care systems have evolved in executing critical care for covid.  Are our health systems being challenged right now?  Sure.  They always are this time of the year.  COVID has challenged them more - more involved in treating covid patients, availability of staff, etc.
> 
> At this point, mandates don't make sense, plenty of reasons why.  Choice is a good idea though.  Good health is hard to mandate.  Even terminally ill patients dont' listen to their providers.  Has always been like that.  Really good bedside manners and education usually work better than mandates.


I saw a pic of LA Ram fans all fired up watching the game with No mask on.  Today, I see kids waiting for bus, all with mask and bus driver with a mask on. Something a lot worse then mandates is going on.


----------



## Bubba

Me at my morning zoom meeting JK

Grant Wahl at Gregg Berhalter press conference.  Its a zoom press conference every reporter are in different locations. 
Have to virtual signal ? I don't know if he has Covid ? I would assume he could isolate in a room in his house.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> How are you and I any different?  Have you read your posts and the absolutism they convey?  I mean I encourage you to go back read posts by yourself and other self proclaimed "Team Reality" folks.  It's not pretty.  To quote you "You don't know what I do for a living and likewise.".  You are absolutely correct here, yet you're the one who presumed I live a privileged lifestyle and even expressed certainty with that view with "I may be completely wrong but I doubt it." Sooooo...yeah.
> 
> I bring up Bay Area communities because they have high vaccination rates.  This has nothing to do with superiority.  I get that you all are anti-mandate.  I get that.  Where I take issue is when you all argue against vaccines to make your case.  I think that is misguided and uninformed.  There are other legitimate arguments against mandates to be made.  The incessant down playing of the effectiveness of the vaccine is exhausting.  You couple those arguments with the fact that I know, given a highly vaccinated area, things have actually worked out rather well.


Difference being, your position regarding vaccines has been, and continues to be, ever-changing, based on the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the vaccine...hell, the government had to change the definition of vaccine to meet their narrative and you just blindly accepted it. Your position has been forced to evolve basically to...since I've gotten the vaccine and boosters then everyone else must get them as well. The only position in all this that has remained consistent is that of personal choice and no mandates for an experimental vaccine.

You liberals and media lackeys used to question and challenge government at every turn...now you're nothing more than government cheerleaders.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bubba said:


> View attachment 12746View attachment 12746View attachment 12746
> Me at my morning zoom meeting JK
> 
> Grant Wahl at Gregg Berhalter press conference.  Its a zoom press conference every reporter are in different locations.
> Have to virtual signal ? I don't know if he has Covid ? I would assume he could isolate in a room in his house.


Forgot to shave


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> You liberals and media lackeys used to question and challenge government at every turn...now you're nothing more than government cheerleaders.


It's actually much worse than cheerleading. Many have become authoritarian suppressors of free speech and choice.


----------



## met61

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's actually much worse than cheerleading. Many have become authoritarian suppressors of free speech and choice.


I was being kind...I stand corrected.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's actually much worse than cheerleading. Many have become authoritarian suppressors of free speech and choice.


These men are on the yell team bro.  "Let's go team Vax, boosters and mask"  This Vax team is full of spite, full of fear and yes, full of shit!!!  That my friend is why we all lost two years of our freedom and counting.


----------



## soccersc

More letters going to Newsom. This time lead by doctors at UCSF









						COVID is now an ‘endemic,’ not a ‘pandemic,’ San Francisco doctors say
					

Doctors are calling for a language pivot to emphasize that California should work toward “an end to all remaining restrictions, particularly as they apply to children.”




					www.kron4.com
				












						Sign the Petition
					

Post-Omicron Pivot for California Public Schools




					www.change.org


----------



## Ellejustus

FYI Everyone, all kids in the future will each have two dog angels like this on each side of them.  Spike and Buster, Dog Angels to the rescue!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Since the polybasic furin site came up again, media speculation that this is some kind of smoking gun regarding origin is good for clicks and political theater but that's about it.  The current state of the matter is that it really does not weigh in one way or another.  Natural origin or accidental lab leak remain the two most probable interpretations.  There is as of yet no firm proof of either scenario and neither one has been eliminated as a possibility. 

https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(21)00991-0.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421007091
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.22.427830v3


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> So what part of the opinion piece do you disagree with?
> 
> - That they should release the study information related to testing of the various vaccines?
> - Or do you disagree with the fact that the FDA doesn't want to release certain information for 75 years?
> 
> And which of the above is right wing and not worthy of discussion?
> 
> Do you prefer not to know what their testing shows? And what rational basis would the FDA have for asking for a 75 yr delay in releasing information?


There is a coreection posted with the article now --

This editorial by Peter Doshi and colleagues (BMJ 2022;376102, doi:10.1136/bmj.o102) originally stated that the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has “stopped posting information released in response to freedom of information requests on its website.” The online version has been corrected to say that MHRA’s posting is delayed, not stopped completely. MHRA posted no additional freedom of information requests on its website between 14 August and 28 December 2021. Since 29 December, however, it has posted a selection of materials for responses from July to September.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> The vaccines do not: provide complete protection to the vaccinated, confer immunity on par or better than prior infection, and do not prevent transmission.  If all of this is true, then mandates don't make sense, the logic fails.


This is where I take issue. The vaccine, especially with a booster has shown to reduce infection. Is it 100% no, but we've gone over that over and over again. Every study, and every Bay Area county, has it around 70-75% reduction in infection. The data is clear. The counter argument you always come back with is natural immunity. Again, uninformed and misguided. The vaccine is much safer than taking a chance on getting infected and hoping you just have mild symptoms. On top of that, the vaccine helps reduce strain on our systems. The natural immunity path is not as predictable and there's no way to reverse course once you go that direction. 

I personally don't care if y'all get the vaccine or not.  Your choice.  I've been clear about that since day one.  I'm not pro-mandate.  I am pro-logic.  The politicization of this issue is the real drag -- and is abundantly present on this thread.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> So what part of the opinion piece do you disagree with?
> 
> - That they should release the study information related to testing of the various vaccines?
> - Or do you disagree with the fact that the FDA doesn't want to release certain information for 75 years?
> 
> And which of the above is right wing and not worthy of discussion?
> 
> Do you prefer not to know what their testing shows? And what rational basis would the FDA have for asking for a 75 yr delay in releasing information?


And another point -- the FDA did not ask for a 75-year delay in releasing information.  The FDA stated that there was a lot of data and at its current rate of reviewing (for legal and scientific purposes) that data before releasing to the public (500 pages per day) that it would take 75 years to review and release it all.  A federal judge has ordered the FDA to speed things up.

As for what is right wing -- I decided not to pay the $1 and read the paywalled Epoch Times article, so I don't know what is in there.  In my opinion, however, the fallacy that the FDA will not release any data for 75 years smells like it came from an unreliable source.  Further investigation of the source of that claim might be assisted if you tell us where you got it.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> This is where I take issue. The vaccine, especially with a booster has shown to reduce infection. Is it 100% no, but we've gone over that over and over again. Every study, and every Bay Area county, has it around 70-75% reduction in infection. The data is clear. The counter argument you always come back with is natural immunity. Again, uninformed and misguided. The vaccine is much safer than taking a chance on getting infected and hoping you just have mild symptoms. On top of that, the vaccine helps reduce strain on our systems. The natural immunity path is not as predictable and there's no way to reverse course once you go that direction.
> 
> I personally don't care if y'all get the vaccine or not.  Your choice.  I've been clear about that since day one.  I'm not pro-mandate.  I am pro-logic.  The politicization of this issue is the real drag -- and is abundantly present on this thread.


The problem is that it's not as cut and dry as you think it is.  While they may reduce infection, 1) the effect seems to be only temporary, and 2) it isn't enough to control mass outbreaks (see Vermont, Spain, Ireland, Gibraltar, Germany, Israel, the United Arab Emirates).  It means we don't really have much of a choice...in the end natural immunity, whether you like it or not, will be the only way out of it as it moves towards endemic status.  You claim you don't like politicization, but then don't realize it is exactly what you are doing too by only focusing on on side of the situation.  For some groups, the vaccine might not be warranted (like Norway has concluded for all but the most immunocompromised kids) and for others boosting may not be warranted (such as young men, particularly with Moderna).  But yes, everyone over 40 that hasn't had it should get vaccinated (those over 30 should seriously consider it) and anyone over 70 should get boosted (those over 60 should seriously consider it) due to disease severity.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The problem is that it's not as cut and dry as you think it is.  While they may reduce infection, 1) the effect seems to be only temporary, and 2) it isn't enough to control mass outbreaks (see Vermont, Spain, Ireland, Gibraltar, Germany, Israel, the United Arab Emirates).  It means we don't really have much of a choice...in the end natural immunity, whether you like it or not, will be the only way out of it as it moves towards endemic status.  You claim you don't like politicization, but then don't realize it is exactly what you are doing too by only focusing on on side of the situation.  For some groups, the vaccine might not be warranted (like Norway has concluded for all but the most immunocompromised kids) and for others boosting may not be warranted (such as young men, particularly with Moderna).  But yes, everyone over 40 that hasn't had it should get vaccinated (those over 30 should seriously consider it) and anyone over 70 should get boosted (those over 60 should seriously consider it) due to disease severity.


How long does natural immunity last?


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> How long does natural immunity last?


Longer than the vaccine


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> This is where I take issue. The vaccine, especially with a booster has shown to reduce infection. Is it 100% no, but we've gone over that over and over again. Every study, and every Bay Area county, has it around 70-75% reduction in infection. The data is clear. The counter argument you always come back with is natural immunity. Again, uninformed and misguided. The vaccine is much safer than taking a chance on getting infected and hoping you just have mild symptoms. On top of that, the vaccine helps reduce strain on our systems. The natural immunity path is not as predictable and there's no way to reverse course once you go that direction.
> 
> I personally don't care if y'all get the vaccine or not.  Your choice.  I've been clear about that since day one.  I'm not pro-mandate.  I am pro-logic.  The politicization of this issue is the real drag -- and is abundantly present on this thread.


You certainly like to minsconstrue my position.  I assure you I'm neither uninformed nor misguided.  I am clearly pro-vaccine to those most vulnerable.  I am pro vaccine if you choose to get one.  I am not pro forcing people to vaccinate healthy members of their family because others are scared, even if vaccinated.  Please point out where I fall back on relying on natural immunity for everyone.  Point out the clear data that indicates we should vaccinate healthy children?  It's important to age stratify risk, especially when dealing with pharma products still under EUA.  It's a basic principle. 

We are in the midst of a waning pandemic, why mandate vaccines for previously infected people?  If you are a fan of that, you are politicizing health, not following science but being an advocate for vaccines.  

This horse is beat. We can agree to disagree.  The story of SAR-COV-2 and vaccines hasn't been wriiten yet.  Proabably a few more chapters to be written.  Hopefully this new variant headed our way trends with little O.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> How long does natural immunity last?


when was the last time you had a really bad cold?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> when was the last time you had a really bad cold?


Started in October, lasted about a month.  I suspect either my flu shot or something my wife brought home.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> when was the last time you had a really bad cold?


Yup in the end looks like what we are headed to is (at least until we get a new tech breakthrough which is at least a couple years away, more likely several, like the new vaccine the US army is looking into) the COVID vaccine is going to be like the flu shot....a yearly shot which misses the next variant most of the time.....get it if you want...if you are elderly/immunocompromised you probably should yearly just to boost your immunoresponse....less than fifty percent of the population gets it.


----------



## thirteenknots

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since the polybasic furin site came up again, media speculation that this is some kind of smoking gun regarding origin is good for clicks and political theater but that's about it.  The current state of the matter is that it really does not weigh in one way or another.  Natural origin or accidental lab leak remain the two most probable interpretations.  There is as of yet no firm proof of either scenario and neither one has been eliminated as a possibility.
> 
> https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(21)00991-0.pdf
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421007091
> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.22.427830v3



Do some research so you don't post the above CCCP Lies.

The CCCP and NIAID/NIH are joined at the hip with the Angel of Death
distributing the funds used for the Criminal acts out of the Wuhan Lab.

Unless you've personally seen a Bat injecting four strands of the HIV virus
into the (SARS-CoV) strand in a public setting to create the current Covid-19
strain and letting it " Fly ", I suggest you do some deep investigating and 
bone up on the basics.

Here's a start:

Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis (nih.gov)

That's right the very NIH has the basics and the TRUTH !
Imagine that.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Longer than the vaccine


Who told you that?


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Do some research so you don't post the above CCCP Lies.
> 
> The CCCP and NIAID/NIH are joined at the hip with the Angel of Death
> distributing the funds used for the Criminal acts out of the Wuhan Lab.
> 
> Unless you've personally seen a Bat injecting four strands of the HIV virus
> into the (SARS-CoV) strand in a public setting to create the current Covid-19
> strain and letting it " Fly ", I suggest you do some deep investigating and
> bone up on the basics.
> 
> Here's a start:
> 
> Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis (nih.gov)
> 
> That's right the very NIH has the basics and the TRUTH !
> Imagine that.


Who is CCCP?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

thirteenknots said:


> Do some research so you don't post the above CCCP Lies.
> 
> The CCCP and NIAID/NIH are joined at the hip with the Angel of Death
> distributing the funds used for the Criminal acts out of the Wuhan Lab.
> 
> Unless you've personally seen a Bat injecting four strands of the HIV virus
> into the (SARS-CoV) strand in a public setting to create the current Covid-19
> strain and letting it " Fly ", I suggest you do some deep investigating and
> bone up on the basics.
> 
> Here's a start:
> 
> Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis (nih.gov)
> 
> That's right the very NIH has the basics and the TRUTH !
> Imagine that.


What a bunch of crap. You tell me how a DNA based retrovirus like HIV gets engineered into a completely unrelated RNA based cornavirus.  That should be fun.  BTW shouldn't it be 13 coils instead of 13 knots.  Won't ever slide that way.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> What a bunch of crap. You tell me how a DNA based retrovirus like HIV gets engineered into a completely unrelated RNA based cornavirus.  That should be fun.  BTW shouldn't it be 13 coils instead of 13 knots.  Won't ever slide that way.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad and others....this is where it is going. People are done.

Reality is finally taking hold. You talk about testing, masks, etc. People are increasingly less willing to put up with this. Listen to the audience which is usually to the left. Tells you all you need to know where the trend is going. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484868809416753153


----------



## Soccermaverick

thirteenknots said:


> Do some research so you don't post the above CCCP Lies.
> 
> The CCCP and NIAID/NIH are joined at the hip with the Angel of Death
> distributing the funds used for the Criminal acts out of the Wuhan Lab.
> 
> Unless you've personally seen a Bat injecting four strands of the HIV virus
> into the (SARS-CoV) strand in a public setting to create the current Covid-19
> strain and letting it " Fly ", I suggest you do some deep investigating and
> bone up on the basics.
> 
> Here's a start:
> 
> Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis (nih.gov)
> 
> That's right the very NIH has the basics and the TRUTH !
> Imagine that.


This guy is coo coo for coco pops.


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sa90bm


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how this works. And yet they were and are demanding proof of vaxx in some parts of the country and some groups want them in more places.

Amazing how wrong the experts have been, and how OFF BASE recommendations for proof of vaxx, etc have been. 

"DENVER (KDVR) — *Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination*, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The report, published Jan. 19, analyzed COVID outcome data from New York and California, which make up about one in six of the nation’s total COVID deaths."

--

"Vaccines *were more effective* at preventing infection or serious illness than natural immunity from prior infections *before the delta variant *became the dominant strain. *After delta became the main strain*, vaccines alone grew weaker against the virus *and natural immunity got much stronger*. This could be due in large part to the fact that vaccines began wearing off around the time delta spread, according to the study.

*“Importantly, infection-derived protection was greater after the highly transmissible Delta variant became predominant,” reads the report, “coinciding with early declining of vaccine-induced immunity in many persons.”*









						CDC: Natural immunity stronger than vaccines alone during delta wave
					

Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.




					kdvr.com


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> This guy is coo coo for coco pops.


Yes, but it's funny coming from you.

p.s. I wonder why the left wing trolls are just so much more clever than the right ones (which typically descended just into racism).


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> You certainly like to minsconstrue my position.  I assure you I'm neither uninformed nor misguided.  I am clearly pro-vaccine to those most vulnerable.  I am pro vaccine if you choose to get one.  I am not pro forcing people to vaccinate healthy members of their family because others are scared, even if vaccinated.  Please point out where I fall back on relying on natural immunity for everyone.  Point out the clear data that indicates we should vaccinate healthy children?  It's important to age stratify risk, especially when dealing with pharma products still under EUA.  It's a basic principle.


It's so odd that he keeps coming back with stuff like "I personally don't care if y'all get the vaccine or not." Who is he talking to? There's one guy on here that I know of who isn't vaxxed. The position you state above is pretty close to where everyone on Team Reality has been for quite some time.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sa90bm


The Karen is now on the other foot.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485694028620316673


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how this works. And yet they were and are demanding proof of vaxx in some parts of the country and some groups want them in more places.
> 
> Amazing how wrong the experts have been, and how OFF BASE recommendations for proof of vaxx, etc have been.
> 
> "DENVER (KDVR) — *Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination*, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> The report, published Jan. 19, analyzed COVID outcome data from New York and California, which make up about one in six of the nation’s total COVID deaths."
> 
> --
> 
> "Vaccines *were more effective* at preventing infection or serious illness than natural immunity from prior infections *before the delta variant *became the dominant strain. *After delta became the main strain*, vaccines alone grew weaker against the virus *and natural immunity got much stronger*. This could be due in large part to the fact that vaccines began wearing off around the time delta spread, according to the study.
> 
> *“Importantly, infection-derived protection was greater after the highly transmissible Delta variant became predominant,” reads the report, “coinciding with early declining of vaccine-induced immunity in many persons.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC: Natural immunity stronger than vaccines alone during delta wave
> 
> 
> Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdvr.com


Not sure where the "six times stronger" claim came from.  From the report in question --

During the study period, COVID-19 incidence in both states was highest among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis compared with that among the other three groups. During the week beginning May 30, 2021, compared with COVID-19 case rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, COVID-19 case rates were 19.9-fold (California) and 18.4-fold (New York) lower among vaccinated persons without a previous diagnosis; 7.2-fold (California) and 9.9-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis; and 9.6-fold (California) and 8.5-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis. During the same period, compared with hospitalization rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, hospitalization rates in California followed a similar pattern. These relationships changed after the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant became predominant (i.e., accounted for >50% of sequenced isolates) in late June and July. By the week beginning October 3, compared with COVID-19 cases rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, case rates among vaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis were 6.2-fold (California) and 4.5-fold (New York) lower; rates were substantially lower among both groups with previous COVID-19 diagnoses, including 29.0-fold (California) and 14.7-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis, and 32.5-fold (California) and 19.8-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis of COVID-19.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> The Karen is now on the other foot.....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485694028620316673


I have a confession here.  This is my favorite of the pandemic videos now.  It has a little bit of everything: masker v. antimasker conflict, the reverse karen, BLM, an assault, lady angry about masks pulls down her masks to yell, small elevator, mental hysteria all in the course of twenty five seconds.  It's perfect...a time capsule of the current age.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> I have a confession here.  This is my favorite of the pandemic videos now.  It has a little bit of everything: masker v. antimasker conflict, the reverse karen, BLM, an assault, lady angry about masks pulls down her masks to yell, small elevator, mental hysteria all in the course of twenty five seconds.  It's perfect...a time capsule of the current age.


Don’t forget the lady wearing black rubber gloves!


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Who told you that?


Who told you otherwise?


----------



## soccersc

When will people realize this is just going to keep going on forever, there are always going to be variants.  Do people really plan on taking boosters every 4 to 6 months? Do they really want to give their kids a booster every 4 to 6 months? Do they want to wear masks forever? This is something we are going to have to learn to live with, protect the vulnerable and let others live their lives.









						What is 'stealth Omicron'?
					

The rise of the subvariant is alarming some scientists who say it may need its own Greek letter.




					fortune.com
				











						WHO says omicron won't be last Covid variant as global cases surge by 20% in a week
					

New infections have increased by 20% globally over the past week with nearly 19 million total cases reported, according to the WHO.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Who told you otherwise?


I have found statements on both sides of that point, so I don't know who to believe.  Who convinced you?


----------



## watfly

The insanity continues.  This is just for the initial vaccinations, which have likely warn off by now for many students.  Of course, you know they will follow-up with periodic booster requirements, which in effect makes this more of a government prescribed medical treatment than a vaccination.  Like I said before we are a country founded by geniuses and run by idiots.









						All California schoolchildren must be vaccinated against COVID-19 under new bill
					

State Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento) announces a bill to add COVID-19 vaccines to California's list of required inoculations for attending K-12 schools.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> The insanity continues.  This is just for the initial vaccinations, which have likely warn off by now for many students.  Of course, you know they will follow-up with periodic booster requirements, which in effect makes this more of a government prescribed medical treatment than a vaccination.  Like I said before we are a country founded by geniuses and run by idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All California schoolchildren must be vaccinated against COVID-19 under new bill
> 
> 
> State Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento) announces a bill to add COVID-19 vaccines to California's list of required inoculations for attending K-12 schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


This Weiner guy is a complete idiot.  If you want anymore evidence that California is a nanny state, this takes the cake.

_"On Thursday, Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) introduced Senate Bill 866, which would permit children 12 and older to choose to be vaccinated, including against COVID-19, without a parent’s consent or knowledge."_

This is going to be another year of the parent like we saw in Virginia.  The left is going to continue to lose parents because of this lunacy.  I think I recall Dad4 and maybe Espola claiming that the kid that was bribed by the school nurse to get a vaccination was just an "administrative mistake".  Clearly its the Dems goal to vaccinate kids without parental consent, because, you know, Dems know what's best for us.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

soccersc said:


> More letters going to Newsom. This time lead by doctors at UCSF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID is now an ‘endemic,’ not a ‘pandemic,’ San Francisco doctors say
> 
> 
> Doctors are calling for a language pivot to emphasize that California should work toward “an end to all remaining restrictions, particularly as they apply to children.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kron4.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Post-Omicron Pivot for California Public Schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org


The petition calls for 17 changes. All are worth reading. A few stand out to me.

- The failure of leadership to recognize this continues to divide us.
"Acknowledge that any adult and most school age children have now had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated, and that forcing further mandates, particularly requiring boosters for children, is likely to increase mistrust and resentment of government and public health officials."

- The failure to do this contributed to our leadership earning the label 'Team Fear'
"Acknowledge the smaller risk that COVID-19 illness poses to children compared to the disproportionate toll that mitigation measures have taken on children."

- The failure to do this is why our leadership is seen as myopic.
"Commit to a rigorous cost-benefit analysis for all COVID restrictive policies to ensure that benefit always outweighs harm, without disproportionately prioritizing prevention of COVID-19 transmission above all other health considerations."


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> This Weiner guy is a complete idiot.  If you want anymore evidence that California is a nanny state, this takes the cake.
> 
> _"On Thursday, Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) introduced Senate Bill 866, which would permit children 12 and older to choose to be vaccinated, including against COVID-19, without a parent’s consent or knowledge."_
> 
> This is going to be another year of the parent like we saw in Virginia.  The left is going to continue to lose parents because of this lunacy.  I think I recall Dad4 and maybe Espola claiming that the kid that was bribed by the school nurse to get a vaccination was just an "administrative mistake".  Clearly its the Dems goal to vaccinate kids without parental consent, because, you know, Dems know what's best for us.


Bribed?  You mean like "No gas, no squeegee"?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Bribed?  You mean like "No gas, no squeegee"?


Like that, except my recollection was vaccination = free pizza, but don't tell your parents about our little secret.


----------



## Soccermaverick

The south shall rise again!!!! Oh that’s not what I meant



http://imgur.com/a/ICRO5Vy


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> The south shall rise again!!!! Oh that’s not what I meant
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/ICRO5Vy


Yup!  But Ireland still did this despite all that, with a peak five times the size of all prior peaks.  It's important to recognize the fact that the vaccine is insufficient to prevent waves of cases (if we should even be caring about cases at this point).










						Ireland COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Ireland Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/63A2ier


----------



## Soccermaverick

Get em


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sbwvb4


----------



## Soccermaverick

Stupid is as stupid does 


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sbwt7d


----------



## Soccermaverick

Even the Kennedys have theirs


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sbt85q


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/sbnt8v


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I see the local drug stores are still understaffed to fill prescriptions.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> This Weiner guy is a complete idiot.  If you want anymore evidence that California is a nanny state, this takes the cake.
> 
> _"On Thursday, Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) introduced Senate Bill 866, which would permit children 12 and older to choose to be vaccinated, including against COVID-19, without a parent’s consent or knowledge."_
> 
> This is going to be another year of the parent like we saw in Virginia.  The left is going to continue to lose parents because of this lunacy.  I think I recall Dad4 and maybe Espola claiming that the kid that was bribed by the school nurse to get a vaccination was just an "administrative mistake".  Clearly its the Dems goal to vaccinate kids without parental consent, because, you know, Dems know what's best for us.


It feels like the tide is turning - even in CA. I'll guess we'll see but I'm thinking neither bill passes.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> Get em
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CovIdiots/comments/sbwvb4


The Washington Examiner has a good summary of Karen freakout videos too (some may not be to your liking)









						WATCH: Mask mandates have brought on public freakouts and fights
					

Since the early days of the pandemic, mask mandates have prompted tense and sometimes violent altercations.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> The insanity continues.  This is just for the initial vaccinations, which have likely warn off by now for many students.  Of course, you know they will follow-up with periodic booster requirements, which in effect makes this more of a government prescribed medical treatment than a vaccination.  Like I said before we are a country founded by geniuses and run by idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All California schoolchildren must be vaccinated against COVID-19 under new bill
> 
> 
> State Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento) announces a bill to add COVID-19 vaccines to California's list of required inoculations for attending K-12 schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Medical and scientific insanity.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Started in October, lasted about a month.  I suspect either my flu shot or something my wife brought home.


Flu shot won't give you the flu.  You may feel a bit off for a day but nothing worse, likley your immune system getting primed.  Did you get shot or squirt up the nose?  You probably had another corona virus -  next time knock down a vitamin/NAD drip.  works wonders...


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Medical and scientific insanity.


Driven by the big teachers' unions.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Who told you otherwise?


Perfect cut to the chase. “I bet you can’t disprove my fiction! Ha ha! I dare you to try!” A summation of the lunatic’s reasoning.


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> I have found statements on both sides of that point, so I don't know who to believe.  Who convinced you?


I agree with you...you can find whatever you want to if you look on the internet hard enough. All I know if that of all the people I know that are boosted and vaccinated most had the same symptoms I had when I got covid a few weeks back, some actually got it worse than I did.  

So what I am convinced about is the original vaccine isn't meant for variants, which is evident by the difference between those vaccinated and those boosted, so that means unless you are going to get boosted every 4 to 6 months then what would be the purpose of getting vaccinated or even getting a booster unless you are going to do it on the regular?  Kinda sounds like a flu shot to me?


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Perfect cut to the chase. “I bet you can’t disprove my fiction! Ha ha! I dare you to try!” A summation of the lunatic’s reasoning.


You're a little late to the conversation


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I see the local drug stores are still understaffed to fill prescriptions.


But the dispensaries are fully staffed...according to a friend.


----------



## Ellejustus

I spoke to my crazy liberal pal just now ((we always go at it, like old brothers would do)) and he is now admitting he's for communism and only if that can keep t away for President.  He said it is what it is and China is a friend.  Dude sounds off and has lost all intellect he once had.  Brainwashed!!!  I told him 100% that I appreciated his honesty and after this is all over, I will make sure his group can have a voice at the table.  You can't force shots, mask on little children, Marx party affiliations, kneel and apologize for past sins of the same Elitist bloodline that is using people.  These are master projectors and they report directly to their father, the liar of lies.  Dr. Fraud is on team Lie.  I watch CNN today with grandpa and it was insane.  Poor guy has Alzheimer's and is now worrying about what Joe is up to and his pals starting a war with Russia, Russia and Russia.  Jake the snake looked crazy and the Retired Army guy had his eye balls all red and ready for war.  Pray for the Peace Train.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> But the dispensaries are fully staffed...according to a friend.











						Cannabis Compounds May Prevent Coronavirus Infection, Study Finds
					

Some of the compounds in cannabis may prevent the entry of the coronavirus into healthy human cells, according to a study published in the Journal of Nature Products.




					www.nbcnewyork.com
				




Dude, my buddy is killing it in the weed biz up in NoCal.  He got in early and is sitting on a throne of gold.  Grows it and sells it to another old pal and all he does is deliver the weed to the pot stores.  Best place to work for younger people I'm being told.  Junction City bro.  In fact, new study out a few days ago say's weed keeps the Rona away and Omicron and all the future crons.  So those deplorables who refused orders from the boss and got fired or the business owner who said, "no way, I won;t force my employees to take poison" and lost their biz + if they smoke weed, they will be fully immune and might just come out on top after this is all said and done.  The elitist force the jabs and most obeyed because they are the type to obey orders.  People like me will never obey orders like that.  Anyway, bro this is going to turn out best for those who said, "NO and smoke a little hippie lettuce after dinner to go to sleep......lol!!!"


----------



## Ellejustus

*Biden calls Fox News' Peter Doocy a 'stupid son of a b----' after question about inflation*


----------



## Ellejustus

*Los Angeles students must wear non-fabric COVID masks at all times, including sports activities, district says*
*School employees are required to wear surgical-grade masks or higher*
Starting Monday, students in the country’s second-largest school district must wear "well-fitted, non-cloth masks with a nose wire" at all times, the district announced. This policy includes indoors as well as athletic activities.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> *Biden calls Fox News' Peter Doocy a 'stupid son of a b----' after question about inflation*


It's like the Babylon Bee content - only true. I'd laugh more if it wasn't actually a bit sad. He appears to be having trouble remembering what was discussed with his advisors versus what they decided he should say to the press. His "minor incursion" comment falls along those lines as well.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's like the Babylon Bee content - only true. *I'd laugh more if it wasn't actually a bit sad*. He appears to be having trouble remembering what was discussed with his advisors versus what they decided he should say to the press. His "minor incursion" comment falls along those lines as well.


I won;t laugh until this is all over.  My wife just told me her friends hubby just took the jab for the team.  He was going to get fired and he bought house a few years ago.  Dream house with dream job and stay home wife for his two kids.  The wife is a health freak and will not have sexual relations now unless he puts the coat on.  She did warn him.  Married 17 years bro and he got snipped too for the team a few years ago.  She begged him not to get the jab.  Her parents said he can get fired and move in even.  He said he loves his job too much and worked all through college to get good grades and then landed his dream job out of school.  The divide this bat mandate with the mask has caused for families is insane.  Now war with Russia and that crazy ass ex Army dude on CNN said it all.  These guys are crazy and they don't give a horse poop in the world for you or me.  Lie to people like Norm saying if you obey and take the jab, you can go back to normal.  Normal is never coming back, only freedom for those who obeyed the law and jail or worse for the cheaters who tried to make a rule over the law.  WHO does that?


----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> These men are on the yell team bro.  "Let's go team Vax, boosters and mask"  This Vax team is full of spite, full of fear and yes, full of shit!!!  That my friend is why we all lost two years of our freedom and counting.
> 
> View attachment 12747


FACT CHECK  True


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> The Karen is now on the other foot.....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485694028620316673


Mrs. @espola and Mrs. @dad4


----------



## MicPaPa

soccersc said:


> You're a little late to the conversation


Which puts him on time.


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> Mrs. @espola and Mrs. @dad4


Espola just comes back each day as if the TRUTH is the lie.  I have never met someone like this guy.  He was so nice to me when I first joined the forum and then he went all "Super Ignore" on me three years ago because I write in satire when I'm in pain.  It was scripture about Yeshua telling them so- called men to cast the fist stone at the woman got in the act of adultery.  Yeshua wrote something on the ground ((I loved to see what he wrote)) and those losers all walked away with their heads down.  I do not make up fables like Grace T.  I came here with a purpose because I already knew what was going on. Dad is npt a good dad at all.  I had two pals tell me yesterday that I was right and they wrong about the vax and mask BS.  Both are super in health, mind, body and soul and are kicking themselves for complying.  They both got super sick during Christmas.  That takes humility to admit when wrong. Dad wants to be right and he will sink with the wrong ship all because he wanted to be right so bad.


----------



## MicPaPa

As a parent, especially of a daughter, this testimony from a senate hearing today has been my biggest concern all along.

For those of you whose default response is to attack the source and messenger - do what you must, then specifically address the content of the testimony.









						Dr. Robert Malone Discusses the COVID Vaccine's Effect on Reproduction
					

Dr. Robert Malone discusses the COVID vaccine's effect on the ovaries, causing concerning changes to women's menstrual cycles that the CDC and FDA have largely ignored. "We have a clear trail of bread




					rumble.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Popcorn is so tasty with butter.....baaaaaaaahaaaahaaaaa.  Watch the movie closely you guys.  War and Finances for $1000 please.  Double Jeopardy......









						Somebody remind resident houseplant his mic is still on...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com We have fun during the day with funny postos, video




					rumble.com


----------



## MicPaPa

MicPaPa said:


> As a parent, especially of a daughter, this testimony from a senate hearing today has been my biggest concern all along.
> 
> For those of you whose default response is to attack the source and messenger - do what you must, then specifically address the content of the testimony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone Discusses the COVID Vaccine's Effect on Reproduction
> 
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone discusses the COVID vaccine's effect on the ovaries, causing concerning changes to women's menstrual cycles that the CDC and FDA have largely ignored. "We have a clear trail of bread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


For the record, my wife's menstrual cycle, which has been regular her entire life, stopped completely for three consecutive months upon receiving the Pfizer vaccine. Clearly non-scientific by itself, but has happened to many.


----------



## Ellejustus

Look at the two Joes.  Look closely at the ears folks.  Dude is not the old Joe, no way man.  Look and then think with your brain, wtf is going on?  This is nuts!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> As a parent, especially of a daughter, this testimony from a senate hearing today has been my biggest concern all along.
> 
> For those of you whose default response is to attack the source and messenger - do what you must, then specifically address the content of the testimony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone Discusses the COVID Vaccine's Effect on Reproduction
> 
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone discusses the COVID vaccine's effect on the ovaries, causing concerning changes to women's menstrual cycles that the CDC and FDA have largely ignored. "We have a clear trail of bread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


The post below goes to the common diagnosis for women when they can't figure it out a source for their symptoms - stress. That's not a very updated approach given how often women's health problems have been dismissed as stress when it was something else altogether. Also, almost everyone I talked to who took the shot without coercion felt a sense of relief after getting the shot. I know I did and it was a bigger sense of relief than I expected. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me that stress is causing all the cases. Let people decide. Just because I'd still get the shots doesn't mean I believe everyone should be forced to - especially given how this has played out with the variants and the orders of magnitude differences in risk between age groups. I also remember when the theory that the virus was manmade was "debunked". I have seen that #science changes.









						COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
					

The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Desert Hound

I mentioned a month or so ago that we are at the beginning of a preference cascade as it relates to covid and moving on from restrictions.

Day be day we see more and more organizations and people get rid of restrictions, start to go out, etc. 

dad and some diehards talk about masking up and more boosters and bars, etc.

People are increasingly done with this. Humans are meant to socialize.









						Bars and gyms are bustling as Americans learn to live with COVID
					

This is how many expect the pandemic to peter out: COVID-19 remains, but becomes milder, and bit by bit, people don't let it rule their lives.




					bangordailynews.com


----------



## Ellejustus

We live among killers that have infiltrated our country.  Dr. Evil is real folks   They hide behind lies if you need to spot one.  They kill God's babies before their born, use God's creation as body parts for their evil experiments and some use the babies blood to live longer.  They then send our boys & girls to wars they create to make $$$$.  They make bio weapons with fear and then send weapon out.  Were in the mother of all wars.  This is the one we all have been warned about.  Light or Dark.  Light wins by the way.   Mother Earth, in partnership with the Light, will be the one to help us all heal from the last 2000 years.  Were all tired and done with wars you guys.  It's clear from my past lives chart, that all I did was fight endless wars.  Our boys need a rest and they need to be re-wired on love.  Poor men, all we get is, "work and fight in our wars.  If you play right, you can retire."  The women have zero chance to find a man without past traumas.  We have to get to the edge of the cliff and then ask, beg, cry, get on your knees and ask God for help. Mother Earth will come save us ((God, Arch Angels and the Lion of Judah)).  She will then wipe out Psychopath once and for all. God will bound up the devil for 1000 years ((no darkness, just light and God and love)) and then Yeshua returns to the earth as King and we all ((those who stay and play)) will have the fun we were all supposed be having.  Happy Tuesday you guys.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Real Math:  27x + 8x*​
This just in:  Vaxxed and boostered are 27x more likely to spread Covid and 8x more likely to end up in the hospital.  Dr. Ahmad Malik said this is what the CDC of Israel is saying.  This country is fully vaccinated with double jab and two booster.  Think you guys and don;t be prideful.  You made a mistake because you were tricked by a lot more then a snake oil salesman.  I would stop taking shots until the whole TRUTH comes out, so help you God.  We should let them give us the data from the UK and Israel.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Humans are meant to socialize.


We should mandate it.


----------



## Ellejustus

Please, please use your brain you guys.  Everything they say is the complete opposite.  "Take the jab so you can go back to normal."  Lie.  "Take the jab so you dont get infected."  Another lie.  "Take the jabs and you drop your mask."  Another lie.  "Take the jab so you dont end up in the hospital."  Is this true or Lie?  Go in a room, and close your eyes and think without your pride.  Think, think for the love of God, please you guys, use your brains.  I'm here to help anyone after you wake you up.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> The post below goes to the common diagnosis for women when they can't figure it out a source for their symptoms - stress. That's not a very updated approach given how often women's health problems have been dismissed as stress when it was something else altogether. Also, almost everyone I talked to who took the shot without coercion felt a sense of relief after getting the shot. I know I did and it was a bigger sense of relief than I expected. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me that stress is causing all the cases. Let people decide. Just because I'd still get the shots doesn't mean I believe everyone should be forced to - especially given how this has played out with the variants and the orders of magnitude differences in risk between age groups. I also remember when the theory that the virus was manmade was "debunked". I have seen that #science changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function
> 
> 
> The novel coronavirus, in contrast, can disrupt both things in unvaccinated men and women
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com


You make a great point - fall back to the most common diagnosis when women experience a disruption to their menstrual cycle is the knee jerk reaction.  Often it's correct, but not always.

The silver lining is that funding is being granted so research can be done.  It's the only way to answer questions.  Anecdotally there's been an increase in disruption.  Have all of us been under stress - absolutely.  We also have been exposed to a novel virus and novel vaccines/therapies.  Research needs to be done to answer the question, both short term and long term.  We have a large population of vaccinated and unvaccinated but prior infected  groups to research.  

Goes back to the whole make your own decision thingy if you are healthy.


----------



## Ellejustus

The Unvaccinated are not a threat to society.  100% true fellas.  In fact, we will be the one's to help build this country back to better, and we will make America Awesome Again.  The unvaccinated are only a threat to authority.  Authority used to win but not no more.  If authority over steps their authority and breaks the law and takes with them all basic human rights from individuals, well then we need to deal with authority.  I fought this evil system and never submitted to it's BS.  I came to fight authority and help free all humans of this slavery.  We were all born into someone else's dream for our lives and it's a nightmare of hell, war, blood, death and go to nursing home alone to die.  It's clear as day.  If you want to be a slave to this shit, I can;t help you. Break free and you will live the way you were born to live; Born Free


----------



## Ellejustus

Were you born free?  Born free my ass!!!


----------



## watfly

Left's Covid hysteria driving liberal moms away from Dems: MANDEL
					

MANDEL: For Bethany Wagner, the 'schools issue' proved to be a gateway into seeing the world differently. She isn't a Republicans, but for the time being, she will be voting for them.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's actually much worse than cheerleading. Many have become authoritarian suppressors of free speech and choice.


Both the UC and CSU systems continue to push mandates with students even as the tide is turning from them on the left. SDSU just made it mandatory to be vaccinated to enter the arena


Desert Hound said:


> I mentioned a month or so ago that we are at the beginning of a preference cascade as it relates to covid and moving on from restrictions.
> 
> Day be day we see more and more organizations and people get rid of restrictions, start to go out, etc.
> 
> dad and some diehards talk about masking up and more boosters and bars, etc.
> 
> People are increasingly done with this. Humans are meant to socialize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bars and gyms are bustling as Americans learn to live with COVID
> 
> 
> This is how many expect the pandemic to peter out: COVID-19 remains, but becomes milder, and bit by bit, people don't let it rule their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bangordailynews.com


Yet the CA teachers unions and government are trying to invoke more restrictions on kids before the tide completely turns on them. Can parents and kids that would prefer not to use this vaccine outlast these authoritarian zealots? Not sure they won’t ram through things.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I believe I remember seeing posted here about a year ago how the economy along the lines that the economy would recover better if the virus was contained - implying mandates would be good for the economy in the long run. Am I remembering correctly? Whatever the case, this is interesting.

***

New York (CNN Business)America's job market hasn't fully recovered yet. But some states are already back to normal.

In November, Texas and Arizona joined Utah and Idaho in recouping all their pandemic job losses, according to a report by ratings agency Fitch.
In comparison, California and New York were at only 70% and 60% of their pre-pandemic employment levels, respectively.
This highlights just how uneven the recovery has been. States that were more affected by the waves of the pandemic and had tighter restrictions to fight the outbreak are lagging behind in recovering from their Covid job losses.

...

CNN Business' Back-to-Normal Index, created with Moody's Analytics, stood at 91% as of last week. Only South Dakota was more than 100% recovered, though a few states, including Idaho, Arizona, Florida and Montana are getting close.

***

Not stated in the post is that CA is at 89% and NY at 84% for the Back-to-Normal Index.









						These 4 states have fully regained the jobs lost during the pandemic | CNN Business
					

America's job market hasn't fully recovered yet. But some states are already back to normal.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Left's Covid hysteria driving liberal moms away from Dems: MANDEL
> 
> 
> MANDEL: For Bethany Wagner, the 'schools issue' proved to be a gateway into seeing the world differently. She isn't a Republicans, but for the time being, she will be voting for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


It's going to be an interesting 9.5 months to the midterms.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's going to be an interesting 9.5 months to the midterms.


The right shouldn't be counting their chickens before they hatch, but if the Left loses suburban women it could be a blood bath.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe I remember seeing posted here about a year ago how the economy along the lines that the economy would recover better if the virus was contained - implying mandates would be good for the economy in the long run. Am I remembering correctly? Whatever the case, this is interesting.
> 
> ***
> 
> New York (CNN Business)America's job market hasn't fully recovered yet. But some states are already back to normal.
> 
> In November, Texas and Arizona joined Utah and Idaho in recouping all their pandemic job losses, according to a report by ratings agency Fitch.
> In comparison, California and New York were at only 70% and 60% of their pre-pandemic employment levels, respectively.
> This highlights just how uneven the recovery has been. States that were more affected by the waves of the pandemic and had tighter restrictions to fight the outbreak are lagging behind in recovering from their Covid job losses.
> 
> ...
> 
> CNN Business' Back-to-Normal Index, created with Moody's Analytics, stood at 91% as of last week. Only South Dakota was more than 100% recovered, though a few states, including Idaho, Arizona, Florida and Montana are getting close.
> 
> ***
> 
> Not stated in the post is that CA is at 89% and NY at 84% for the Back-to-Normal Index.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These 4 states have fully regained the jobs lost during the pandemic | CNN Business
> 
> 
> America's job market hasn't fully recovered yet. But some states are already back to normal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


In a don Quiote like quest doomed to failure certain states like CA screwed and are still screwing biz and kids

In the end restrictions didn't stop the virus but hurt millions financially and educationally. 

And these people also tended to be the ones who could least afford dealing with these type of restrictions. 

Poor leadership. And that is even too kind since this wasn't close to any known form of leadership.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The right shouldn't be counting their chickens before they hatch, but if the Left loses suburban women it could be a blood bath.


Nope they should not be. 

Likely to win the house easily and possibly the senate. 

That said the leadership of the GOP likes to miss opportunities. 

As O said about Joe...do not underestimate his ability to fuck things up...the same applies to the GOP.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> counting


Now in addition to my comments above...it is an opportunity.

Despite the press shrieking that T was a racist, minorities across the spectrum voted in larger numbers for him last time vs the first time around.

In other words they liked the economic benefits of what they were receiving. On the latino side, large numbers actually like the idea of border enforcement. Large numbers of blacks like the concept of IDs to vote, etc. 

The press creates narratives in many cases that do not reflect the population at large opinion. 

If women and others start to realize that the D union stranglehold on their kids education hurts their family, you will get movement away from that party.

People tend to be comfortable in their bubble until it gets popped. They do something different and suddenly realize that maybe all those bad things they heard about school choice and or how unions are good for education were not correct.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> Nope they should not be.
> 
> Likely to win the house easily and possibly the senate.
> 
> That said the leadership of the GOP likes to miss opportunities.
> 
> As O said about Joe...do not underestimate his ability to fuck things up...the same applies to the GOP.


If Republicans still think Trump is their salvation, midterms will be closer than you think. 

case in point: Larry Elder x Gavin Newsome


----------



## Grace T.

People have been wondering about why if the vaccines really reduce transmission, we can still be seeing these huge spikes in highly vaxxed places like the UAE, Ireland, the UK, Gibraltar and Vermont.  Here's an interesting critique of the math behind the efficiency studies: because of the way they define boosted and vaxxed, it leads to an exaggeration (by five to twenty percent) of their efficiency.









						bayesian datacrime: defining vaccine efficacy into existence
					

how the definitions of "full vaccinated" and now "boosted" are exaggerating (and possibly creating from whole cloth) VE and turning the data into gibberish




					boriquagato.substack.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

Ellejustus said:


> Espola just comes back each day as if the TRUTH is the lie.  I have never met someone like this guy.  He was so nice to me when I first joined the forum and then he went all "Super Ignore" on me three years ago because I write in satire when I'm in pain.  It was scripture about Yeshua telling them so- called men to cast the fist stone at the woman got in the act of adultery.  Yeshua wrote something on the ground ((I loved to see what he wrote)) and those losers all walked away with their heads down.  I do not make up fables like Grace T.  I came here with a purpose because I already knew what was going on. Dad is npt a good dad at all.  I had two pals tell me yesterday that I was right and they wrong about the vax and mask BS.  Both are super in health, mind, body and soul and are kicking themselves for complying.  They both got super sick during Christmas.  That takes humility to admit when wrong. Dad wants to be right and he will sink with the wrong ship all because he wanted to be right so bad.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> People tend to be comfortable in their bubble until it gets popped.


Agreed. Dramatic events, such as COVID, tend to force people off auto-pilot.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If Republicans still think Trump is their salvation, midterms will be closer than you think.
> 
> case in point: Larry Elder x Gavin Newsome


The midterms wont have trump or desantis, etc running. Off year.

Biden and his policies and the proposals put out by congress will be on the ballet so to speak. And the big one...covid policies


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Now in addition to my comments above...it is an opportunity.
> 
> Despite the press shrieking that T was a racist, minorities across the spectrum voted in larger numbers for him last time vs the first time around.
> 
> In other words they liked the economic benefits of what they were receiving. On the latino side, large numbers actually like the idea of border enforcement. Large numbers of blacks like the concept of IDs to vote, etc.
> 
> The press creates narratives in many cases that do not reflect the population at large opinion.
> 
> If women and others start to realize that the D union stranglehold on their kids education hurts their family, you will get movement away from that party.
> 
> People tend to be comfortable in their bubble until it gets popped. They do something different and suddenly realize that maybe all those bad things they heard about school choice and or how unions are good for education were not correct.


Dems need to take a page out of Adams book on crime, Colorado's governor on Covid and hope the supply chain crisis resolves itself on its own (since Biden isn't doing anything) and puts some downward pressure on inflation.  They will also need to grow a pair on schools, or at least grow one, so they aren't on their knees for the unions.  I'd say they need to grow a pair on the border, but since that will never happen, they just need to continue their current strategy of "nothing to see here".   It will also help them if the Republicans don't punt on Trump.   They couldn't care less about my opinion but I think its what they need to do to have any chance at midterms.  Of course, this assumes that Biden and Harris are kept in the basement as much as possible.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The midterms wont have trump or desantis, etc running. Off year.
> 
> Biden and his policies and the proposals put out by congress will be on the ballet so to speak. And the big one...covid policies


But the Dems will act like Trump is running.  A deft politician should be able to mitigate that, though.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Dems need to take a page out of Adams book on crime, Colorado's governor on Covid and hope the supply chain crisis resolves itself on its own (since Biden isn't doing anything) and puts some downward pressure on inflation.  They will also need to grow a pair on schools, or at least grow one, so they aren't on their knees for the unions.  I'd say they need to grow a pair on the border, but since that will never happen, they just need to continue their current strategy of "nothing to see here".   It will also help them if the Republicans don't punt on Trump.   They couldn't care less about my opinion but I think its what they need to do to have any chance at midterms.  Of course, this assumes that Biden and Harris are kept in the basement as much as possible.


The problem here is that the inflationary pressures have hit as much that the fed has to do something about it (and the anticipation of it doing that, particularly as things are going to get worse if there is a war in Europe, caused the market tumble yesterday).  The feds are going to have to increasingly tap the breaks on the money supply which will cause the economy to crunch up.  If Biden thinks he has it bad right now, it's going to get ALOT worse.   I said it before: Trump was actually kind of lucky not to get reelected as these four years were destined to be a challenge for any president except those of the greatest ability (and that wasn't Trump....as a political novice he was basically learning on the job).  Biden may have made the situation worse with his preferences (the spending/the catering to blue state COVID hysteria/the teachers union support) but much of this was always baked in.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> But the Dems will act like Trump is running.  A deft politician should be able to mitigate that, though.


Twitter did the Rs a favor by silencing Trump.  He's in the background increasingly and his preferred to run against De Santis keeps slipping.  Short of Trump going on Joe Rogan, the midterms should be a straight up referendum on Biden.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> But the Dems will act like Trump is running.  A deft politician should be able to mitigate that, though.


Hard to distance from Trump in the general if you need Trump’s endorsement to win the primary.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Hard to distance from Trump in the general if you need Trump’s endorsement to win the primary.


I don't think that's true, but we will shall see.   I don't believe there are that many Trump zealots in the party (just some of the loudest), most of us just tolerated him because his policies were decent and the economy was great.   I know others will disagree, but Youngkin did a pretty good job at keeping Trump at arms-length.

I think for the mid-terms if the R candidate can just be pro-child, and not anti-parent, they will have a great shot at winning.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> The midterms wont have trump or desantis, etc running. Off year.
> 
> Biden and his policies and the proposals put out by congress will be on the ballet so to speak. And the big one...covid policies


Not that they are running, but that some R’s hitch their wagons to Trump which alienates many “Centralists” or left of Center D’s

Funny thing….I received an email from the DNC about Biden Harris and a Poll on where they should be focusing on their policy moving forward.   I don’t know how live the numbers are, but I found it very interesting that Covid Policy was near the bottom.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> *The right* shouldn't be counting their chickens before they hatch, but if *the Left *loses suburban women it could be a blood bath.


This is classic duality thinking bro.  The cheaters on the left and the right don't give two cents about a blood bath with moms.  They feed off war bro.  I call it, The War Reef.  Sharks and snake oil cons.  This is not a Right vs Left.  It never was and you need to trust me on this.  It's only about, "what is right & true."  Nothing else.  What side are you on?  Don't pick a man made side.  Pick truth first and then follow it wherever it leads you.  We all no we got lied to by now.  You know it and I know it.  So what's you gonna do about bro?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> But the Dems will act like Trump is running.  A deft politician should be able to mitigate that, though.


I notice some conventional Republicans are now using an ignore trump and run against Biden strategy. Seems smart but will it work with the trump-zombie base? They need brains to feed on, grievances to be aggrieved about, straw men to battle, conspiracies to theorize on!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I notice some conventional Republicans are now using an ignore trump and run against Biden strategy. Seems smart but will it work with the trump-zombie base? They need brains to feed on, grievances to be aggrieved about, straw men to battle, conspiracies to theorize on!


what would you do without them?  better yet, what would your favorite media outlets do without them? They've been amplifying their relevance for some time now.  It's like 2022 or something right?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I notice some conventional Republicans are now using an ignore trump and run against Biden strategy. Seems smart but will it work with the trump-zombie base? They need brains to feed on, grievances to be aggrieved about, straw men to battle, conspiracies to theorize on!


I hope its neither a pro-Trump or anti-Biden campaign.  We got Trump because he wasn't Obama and we got Biden because he wasn't Trump and look where that has gotten us.  Time to get back to policies and neither side should pander to their zombie ends.  Messaging needs to be simple.  For the R's they need to focus on the children and the economy.   I don't think the D's focus on racism and climate change will get them very far in the current environment.  However, what both parties need desperately is accountability.


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Not that they are running, but that some R’s hitch their wagons to Trump which alienates many “Centralists” or left of Center D’s
> 
> Funny thing….I received an email from the DNC about Biden Harris and a Poll on where they should be focusing on their policy moving forward.   I don’t know how live the numbers are, but I found it very interesting that Covid Policy was near the bottom.
> 
> View attachment 12754


Assuming that is actual D voters that is their problem. Their top is climate change. Your typical person is worried about finances (the economy), their kids in schools etc. 

Kind of shows (if true) how out of touch they are.


----------



## what-happened

Biden admin withdraws temporary vaccine-or-test mandate for large employers
					

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration announced Tuesday that it is withdrawing the Biden administration's temporary COVID-19 vaccine-or-test requirement for large employers.The big picture: OSHA said it made the decision to withdraw the mandate following the Supreme Court's decision...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Then there's this.


----------



## Desert Hound

It is seeing stuff like this time and time again which sour the public on the covid policies and the politicians who promote them.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's like the Babylon Bee content - only true. I'd laugh more if it wasn't actually a bit sad. He appears to be having trouble remembering what was discussed with his advisors versus what they decided he should say to the press. His "minor incursion" comment falls along those lines as well.











						#DontBrowbeatMyPete  | National Review
					

I still haven’t stopped shaking after last night’s attack on Peter Doocy.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Assuming that is actual D voters that is their problem. Their top is climate change. Your typical person is worried about finances (the economy), their kids in schools etc.
> 
> Kind of shows (if true) how out of touch they are.


Long term, how do August temperatures in AZ look if we add 2.5 degrees Celsius?  And where do you get your water when Lake Powell runs dry from evaporation?

Don’t count this as a vote for jet set Democrats.  But it’s a real problem.  Much of the urban land here will be underwater, and the land there could become uninhabitable.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> #DontBrowbeatMyPete  | National Review
> 
> 
> I still haven’t stopped shaking after last night’s attack on Peter Doocy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


That was spectacular. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Assuming that is actual D voters that is their problem. Their top is climate change. Your typical person is worried about finances (the economy), their kids in schools etc.
> 
> Kind of shows (if true) how out of touch they are.


Not even inflation and the supply labor issues on the list, which is the biggest pocket book issue right now.



dad4 said:


> Long term, how do August temperatures in AZ look if we add 2.5 degrees Celsius?  And where do you get your water when Lake Powell runs dry from evaporation?
> 
> Don’t count this as a vote for jet set Democrats.  But it’s a real problem.  Much of the urban land here will be underwater, and the land there could become uninhabitable.


Much like the virus, it's a real problem that there's not much we can do about.  Like the virus, there's no hope in elimination without a world coordinating strategy (and India, China and the third world will never go for it).  Like the virus, to actually do anything about it here in the West would be extremely painful.....electric cars and renewables won't get us there since what we are talking about is reverting to preindustrial levels of consumption.  Like the virus, we can't even get the ruling classes to sign onto basic restrictions they talk about imposing on everyone else (using their private planes and their big houses).  Ultimately, it's going to be a tech solution which focuses on adaption of changed environments, reducing carbon outputs through tech, and climate alteration tech...yes, some places will go unliveable but there's also all that lovely Canadian tundra just sitting there if worse comes to worse.


----------



## Grace T.

Those of you who had that 2022 would be the year Planet of the Apes (reboot) would become real on their bingo cards seem to have a leg up, even though those of you who thought Planet of the Apes (original) might happen are still in the running at this point.  A monkey plague would be just a perfect end to it all......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485948033787469835


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> #DontBrowbeatMyPete  | National Review
> 
> 
> I still haven’t stopped shaking after last night’s attack on Peter Doocy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


I think that take is a little overdramatic.  Should Biden have said it, no, was it Presidential, no, but is it really that big of a deal?  I actually kind of found it funny, like when you think Grandpa is asleep in his recliner at a family gathering and he pops off with some inappropriate remark out of his stupor.

If this was Trump would the Left be having a shit fit right now? Yep, it would be the end of democracy as we know it.  That's the Left's job to be offended though.  The Right should have thicker skin.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I think that take is a little overdramatic.  Should Biden have said it, no, was it Presidential, no, but is it really that big of a deal?  I actually kind of found it funny, like when you think Grandpa is asleep in his recliner at a family gathering and he pops off with some inappropriate remark out of his stupor.
> 
> If this was Trump would the Left be having a shit fit right now? Yep, it would be the end of democracy as we know it.  That's the Left's job to be offended though.  The Right should have thicker skin.


I read it as satire - playing off how the press reacted to Trump. I don't believe he feels this way.


----------



## Brav520

Yes , it’s satire


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I read it as satire - playing off how the press reacted to Trump. I don't believe he feels this way.





Brav520 said:


> Yes , it’s satire


I'm a little slow today.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Those of you who had that 2022 would be the year Planet of the Apes (reboot) would become real on their bingo cards seem to have a leg up, even though those of you who thought Planet of the Apes (original) might happen are still in the running at this point.  A monkey plague would be just a perfect end to it all......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485948033787469835


It's probably just stress.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Yes , it’s satire


I'm still laughing. I forwarded it to a friend with the instructions, "Make sure you have a few minutes after you read it to laugh."


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> It is seeing stuff like this time and time again which sour the public on the covid policies and the politicians who promote them.
> 
> View attachment 12755


Sick!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Much like the virus, it's a real problem that there's not much we can do about.  Like the virus, there's no hope in elimination without a world coordinating strategy (and India, China and the third world will never go for it).  Like the virus, to actually do anything about it here in the West would be extremely painful.....electric cars and renewables won't get us there since what we are talking about is reverting to preindustrial levels of consumption.  Like the virus, we can't even get the ruling classes to sign onto basic restrictions they talk about imposing on everyone else (using their private planes and their big houses).  Ultimately, it's going to be a tech solution which focuses on adaption of changed environments, reducing carbon outputs through tech, and climate alteration tech...yes, some places will go unliveable but there's also all that lovely Canadian tundra just sitting there if worse comes to worse.


Most tech “solutions“ to climate change are nothing more than wishful thinking.  It’s the “eat my cake and have it too“ school of environmentalism.

But ”ignore and adapt” isn’t a long term strategy.  If you keep burning fossil fuels, what keeps CO2 levels from shooting right by 600ppm and continuing to go up?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Most tech “solutions“ to climate change are nothing more than wishful thinking.  It’s the “eat my cake and have it too“ school of environmentalism.
> 
> But ”ignore and adapt” isn’t a long term strategy.  If you keep burning fossil fuels, what keeps CO2 levels from shooting right by 600ppm and continuing to go up?


Kinda like exponential virus growth huh?

I worry much more about the Cylon uprising, the SMOD, Planet of the Apes (original) or Planet of the Apes (reboot) than I do about climate change.  If we can't solve Climate Change with tech, the other 4 will doom us sooner, and as I said, we have all that lovely Canadian tundra up there....if it were really such an immediate ending cataclysm, the PRC would be much more worried about it (considering that unlike the Russians and Americans, they have no where to go and don't have to answer to a constituency unwilling to make sacrifices, as COVID has shown).


----------



## Ellejustus

Mother Truckers are kicking ass in Canada


----------



## Grace T.

Red states are recovering faster than blue states, some of which are in a technical recession....









						Red States Beat Blue States in Lowering Unemployment, Recovering Jobs
					






					townhall.com
				




Also the restaurant surveys show a huge difference between red and blue.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486089132095029255


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like exponential virus growth huh?
> 
> I worry much more about the Cylon uprising, the SMOD, Planet of the Apes (original) or Planet of the Apes (reboot) than I do about climate change.  If we can't solve Climate Change with tech, the other 4 will doom us sooner, and as I said, we have all that lovely Canadian tundra up there....if it were really such an immediate ending cataclysm, the PRC would be much more worried about it (considering that unlike the Russians and Americans, they have no where to go and don't have to answer to a constituency unwilling to make sacrifices, as COVID has shown).


Clueless.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Under perjury folks and you can;t lie this time and cross your fingers.  Busted!!!!*



The Docs spoke today and all we hear about is the war with Russia.  This is not funny anymore.  You guys can go ahead and talk R vs D all you want. However, the facts are the facts and this is not about this or that any more.  It's about YOU!  What will you do sheeples?  This just came out and no one is lying.  Their putting their lives and careers on the line to share TRUTH with you.  I can;t work and my friends got fired because of not complying with these assholes. All you guys have been doing is complying.  Hello!!!  It's novel and noble to agree that mandates are dumb and to fire someone from their livelihood is wrong but you wont do anything because you got the jab and son.  This is weird times.  My pals are the same. They can;t look at me in the eyes.  They got played and pride is keeping them seeing the TRUTH.  I here, "If my doctor tells me to jump off a cliff, well then I will, because he's my doctor."  Did you guys get all your degrees and not do any street smart classes?  I'm really really here to help after this is over and you guys eat more crow.

The facts and all this under perjury!!!

*300% increase in miscarriage's over the five year average since Covid*
*300% in cancer cases over 5 year avg since Rona
1000% increase in neurological damage to pilots over 5 year average.  That's 10x folks from the days of Normal.    *
*Soldiers have been used as lab **experiments** and have had major damage and some even killed
Project Salas 9/28/2021 folks.  Go do some research and then get your head out of the sand.  Please, help yourself and then help your children.* *They lied about who was going to the hospital and you believed them again. *

I will never fly again after what I just heard


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Red states are recovering faster than blue states, some of which are in a technical recession....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red States Beat Blue States in Lowering Unemployment, Recovering Jobs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the restaurant surveys show a huge difference between red and blue.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486089132095029255


People don;t want to work in resturants.  It's hell for the hostesses in LA.  

Hostess:  Sir, you can;t eat here unless you have a mask on
Man:  No way, I eat with no mask lady.  Sit me now or I call the cops

Hostess:  Sir, you need to obey the rules
Man:  Listen you.........

Hostess:  I quit!!!


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I hope its neither a pro-Trump or anti-Biden campaign.  We got Trump because he wasn't Obama and we got Biden because he wasn't Trump and look where that has gotten us.  Time to get back to policies and neither side should pander to their zombie ends.  Messaging needs to be simple.  For the R's they need to focus on the children and the economy.   I don't think the D's focus on racism and climate change will get them very far in the current environment.  However, what both parties need desperately is accountability.


Neither party is very popular right now with anyone but their base.








						Both political parties unpopular with Americans in new poll
					

Both major U.S. political parties were found to be unpopular in a new NBC News poll published on Tuesday.According to the the poll, 44 percent of participants said they viewed the Republi…




					thehill.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Not even inflation and the supply labor issues on the list, which is the biggest pocket book issue right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Much like the virus, it's a real problem that there's not much we can do about.  Like the virus, there's no hope in elimination without a world coordinating strategy (and India, China and the third world will never go for it).  Like the virus, to actually do anything about it here in the West would be extremely painful.....electric cars and renewables won't get us there since what we are talking about is reverting to preindustrial levels of consumption.  Like the virus, we can't even get the ruling classes to sign onto basic restrictions they talk about imposing on everyone else (using their private planes and their big houses).  Ultimately, it's going to be a tech solution which focuses on adaption of changed environments, reducing carbon outputs through tech, and climate alteration tech...yes, some places will go unliveable but there's also all that lovely Canadian tundra just sitting there if worse comes to worse.


The other major problem is that the models they use keep showing to be unreliable.

They have difficulty recreating past events that are known.

Think about all the experts telling us by 2020 this or that country wouldn't have snow, etc.

Further even under the most optimistic projections ...ie if everyplace did as they want, the temp reduction is less than a degree by 2100.

As many point out it is again a cost benefit issue. For the amount of money proposed you could solve the water/food issue in a lot of poor countries thereby taking 100s of millions out of abject poverty.

Etc etc.

People adapt. Rising sea or taking back the sea...the Dutch have been doing this for 100s of years as just one example.

Climate has always changed. It is why in the SW Indian groups that thrived 600 to 1k years ago moved on. Climate change forced that.

People mistakenly believe what is today temp/climate was will always be the same.

As the snow has receded in certain mountain areas in Norway they are now finding that ancient people used to be up there using those routes. The articles always mention it is because climate change they know that now. But the writer(s) conveniently leave out the part that the area in the past was once warm enough where people where there. ETC.

Go back and look at all the predictions the experts made regarding things that would happen in just the past 20 yrs. And yet they didn't come to pass. People seem to forget that...and then get the vapors when those same experts who have been wrong time and time again make other catastrophic predictions.

As a number of scientists have complained about...these predictions are rather political in many cases and do more harm than good in terms of informing the public.

The modeling is at best in its infancy.

That said tech and adaptation are really what will get us through anything. Year by year 1st world countries become more efficient and pollute less. This trend will continue which is a good thing.



dad4 said:


> If you keep burning fossil fuels, what keeps CO2 levels from shooting right by 600ppm and continuing to go up?


The problem is fossil fuels drive everything in the world. There is nothing now that has a chance of replacing our reliance on it. 

People just think cars when they think fossil fuels.

- The reality is fossil fuels are in or responsible for about everything we do or have. An amazing high percentage of products have some type of fossil fuel in or used in their manufacturing process. 

- Extracting the materials to make almost everything we have requires fossil fuels
- Getting them to market, etc requires fossil fuels...etc. 

Look around your office/house etc. Pretty much every single item in there would not be possible without fossil fuels be in in the manufacture, materials, transport, etc.

There is no energy source on the horizon that can replace that or come close in the coming decades. 

- electric vehicles? Most of our power in the US and other places come from power plants utilizing fossil fuels. When that happens it is said an electric vehicle has a long tailpipe...ie to the power plant.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Red states are recovering faster than blue states, some of which are in a technical recession....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red States Beat Blue States in Lowering Unemployment, Recovering Jobs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the restaurant surveys show a huge difference between red and blue.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486089132095029255


I wonder if takeout is making up for the decrease in in person dining? 

Oh wait...no it isn't.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> - electric vehicles? Most of our power in the US and other places come from power plants utilizing fossil fuels. When that happens it is said an electric vehicle has a long tailpipe...ie to the power plant.


At the moment you posted that, more than half of California's electricity was being produced by renewables.





__





						California ISO - Supply, Today's Outlook
					

View real-time and historical data on generation resources, including renewables, currently on the system.



					www.caiso.com


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Neither party is very popular right now with anyone but their base.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both political parties unpopular with Americans in new poll
> 
> 
> Both major U.S. political parties were found to be unpopular in a new NBC News poll published on Tuesday.According to the the poll, 44 percent of participants said they viewed the Republi…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Imagine that.


----------



## Desert Hound

_If N95s filter so well, why are respirators *an ineffective intervention*? Because masking is a* behavioral intervention as much as a physical one.* For respirators to work, t*hey must be well fitting, must be tested by OSHA, and must be used for only short time* windows as their effectiveness diminishes as they get wet from breathing.

--

What is the evidence for respirators stopping the spread of covid19? Studies on Influenza provide guidance. Though respirators provide better filtration in perfect laboratory conditions, people who wear them are just as likely to catch flu whether they are wearing a surgical mask or a respirator. Though respirators have higher filtration capabilities, a Cochrane review and an independent metanalysis both revealed there were not clear differences between the effectiveness of surgical masks and respirators in preventing infections like Influenza. The Influenza virus and SARS-CoV-2 virus are of comparable size and rates of transmission of infection between close contacts are similar.

--









						We're a physician and mathematician and a data scientist. N95s won't work for kids | Opinion
					

The truth is, the burdens of these masks outweigh their benefits for kids. We need to consider more effective, less harmful interventions as we come together to keep schools open and safe.




					www.newsweek.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> At the moment you posted that, more than half of California's electricity was being produced by renewables.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California ISO - Supply, Today's Outlook
> 
> 
> View real-time and historical data on generation resources, including renewables, currently on the system.
> 
> 
> 
> www.caiso.com


Wow...that brain of yours working hard...not. 

We are talking worldwide usage.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like exponential virus growth huh?
> 
> I worry much more about the Cylon uprising, the SMOD, Planet of the Apes (original) or Planet of the Apes (reboot) than I do about climate change.  If we can't solve Climate Change with tech, the other 4 will doom us sooner, and as I said, we have all that lovely Canadian tundra up there....if it were really such an immediate ending cataclysm, the PRC would be much more worried about it (considering that unlike the Russians and Americans, they have no where to go and don't have to answer to a constituency unwilling to make sacrifices, as COVID has shown).


You didn’t answer the question.

If we do not voluntarily reduce CO2 emissions, what keeps atmospheric CO2 levels from exceeding 600 or 900 ppm?  

The answer for covid was that eventually we all get it.  The number of naive infections cannot exceed the population of the planet.  

What, if anything, causes an upper bound for CO2?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Wow...that brain of yours working hard...not.
> 
> We are talking worldwide usage.











						Renewable electricity growth is accelerating faster than ever worldwide, supporting the emergence of the new global energy economy - News - IEA
					

Renewable electricity growth is accelerating faster than ever worldwide, supporting the emergence of the new global energy economy - News from the International Energy Agency




					www.iea.org


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> You didn’t answer the question.
> 
> If we do not voluntarily reduce CO2 emissions, what keeps atmospheric CO2 levels from exceeding 600 or 900 ppm?
> 
> The answer for covid was that eventually we all get it.  The number of naive infections cannot exceed the population of the planet.
> 
> What, if anything, causes an upper bound for CO2?


For Covid - think of the children
For Climate Change - f the children ( and future generations)

Common thread - I don't want anything to spoil my comfortable life


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Renewable electricity growth is accelerating faster than ever worldwide, supporting the emergence of the new global energy economy - News - IEA
> 
> 
> Renewable electricity growth is accelerating faster than ever worldwide, supporting the emergence of the new global energy economy - News from the International Energy Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iea.org


Like I always ask, how long with fossil fuels last? Shouldn’t we get out ahead of this issue?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> For Covid - think of the children
> For Climate Change - f the children ( and future generations)
> 
> Common thread - I don't want anything to spoil my comfortable life


This is the “me generation” on steroids . . . or is it meth?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Clueless.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again my fellow!"


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> The other major problem is that the models they use keep showing to be unreliable.
> 
> They have difficulty recreating past events that are known.
> 
> Think about all the experts telling us by 2020 this or that country wouldn't have snow, etc.
> 
> Further even under the most optimistic projections ...ie if everyplace did as they want, the temp reduction is less than a degree by 2100.
> 
> As many point out it is again a cost benefit issue. For the amount of money proposed you could solve the water/food issue in a lot of poor countries thereby taking 100s of millions out of abject poverty.
> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> People adapt. Rising sea or taking back the sea...the Dutch have been doing this for 100s of years as just one example.
> 
> Climate has always changed. It is why in the SW Indian groups that thrived 600 to 1k years ago moved on. Climate change forced that.
> 
> People mistakenly believe what is today temp/climate was will always be the same.
> 
> As the snow has receded in certain mountain areas in Norway they are now finding that ancient people used to be up there using those routes. The articles always mention it is because climate change they know that now. But the writer(s) conveniently leave out the part that the area in the past was once warm enough where people where there. ETC.
> 
> Go back and look at all the predictions the experts made regarding things that would happen in just the past 20 yrs. And yet they didn't come to pass. People seem to forget that...and then get the vapors when those same experts who have been wrong time and time again make other catastrophic predictions.
> 
> As a number of scientists have complained about...these predictions are rather political in many cases and do more harm than good in terms of informing the public.
> 
> The modeling is at best in its infancy.
> 
> That said tech and adaptation are really what will get us through anything. Year by year 1st world countries become more efficient and pollute less. This trend will continue which is a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is fossil fuels drive everything in the world. There is nothing now that has a chance of replacing our reliance on it.
> 
> People just think cars when they think fossil fuels.
> 
> - The reality is fossil fuels are in or responsible for about everything we do or have. An amazing high percentage of products have some type of fossil fuel in or used in their manufacturing process.
> 
> - Extracting the materials to make almost everything we have requires fossil fuels
> - Getting them to market, etc requires fossil fuels...etc.
> 
> Look around your office/house etc. Pretty much every single item in there would not be possible without fossil fuels be in in the manufacture, materials, transport, etc.
> 
> There is no energy source on the horizon that can replace that or come close in the coming decades.
> 
> - electric vehicles? Most of our power in the US and other places come from power plants utilizing fossil fuels. When that happens it is said an electric vehicle has a long tailpipe...ie to the power plant.


The everything would be fine if everyone had a Telsa and we switched to all renewables people are the worst of the worst when it comes to being delusional (particularly if they oppose nuclear).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You didn’t answer the question.
> 
> If we do not voluntarily reduce CO2 emissions, what keeps atmospheric CO2 levels from exceeding 600 or 900 ppm?
> 
> The answer for covid was that eventually we all get it.  The number of naive infections cannot exceed the population of the planet.
> 
> What, if anything, causes an upper bound for CO2?


Either: a) the tech becomes more efficient as time goes on, b) warp drive is invented and we all move off planet, c) SMOD/Cylons/Planet of the Apes 1/Planet of the Apes 2 get us.  Again, the thing you ALWAYS miss (because you always are limited in your thinking and think 3 dimensionally instead of 4) is time....on a long enough time horizon (we are talking maybe a millenia or less) either our tech keeps our heads above water or we are all extinct (and again, climate change is the least of that worry).

The separate question is what can we do about it?  Other than incentivizing tech development, the answer is nothing, because no we aren't going to scrap the planes, give up hot showers, stop eating meat and shoot all the dogs.  So if it's not tech, than the answer is nothing....we are doomed (by something eventually) and the only question is how long we got.  In the meantime there's always Canada!


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I wonder if takeout is making up for the decrease in in person dining?
> 
> Oh wait...no it isn't.



But but but Dad4 makes an effort to do take out once a week.  That isn't enough?


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> For Covid - think of the children
> For Climate Change - f the children ( and future generations)
> 
> Common thread - I don't want anything to spoil my comfortable life


No you are missing the primary point.  The futility of some actions.  Sometimes the question of "what's to be done" is "nothing".  The facts don't care about your feelings to the contrary.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Either: a) the tech becomes more efficient as time goes on, b) warp drive is invented and we all move off planet, c) SMOD/Cylons/Planet of the Apes 1/Planet of the Apes 2 get us.  Again, the thing you ALWAYS miss (because you always are limited in your thinking and think 3 dimensionally instead of 4) is time....on a long enough time horizon (we are talking maybe a millenia or less) either our tech keeps our heads above water or we are all extinct (and again, climate change is the least of that worry).
> 
> The separate question is what can we do about it?  Other than incentivizing tech development, the answer is nothing, because no we aren't going to scrap the planes, give up hot showers, stop eating meat and shoot all the dogs.  So if it's not tech, than the answer is nothing....we are doomed (by something eventually) and the only question is how long we got.  In the meantime there's always Canada!


p.s. on a long enough time horizon we will also RUN OUT OF OIL which is going to happen potentially sooner than we breach through liveable temperatures along the tropics zones.  Again, if the tech doesn't keep us above water we're doomed.  The biggest tech breakthroughs that would make the biggest difference are battery capacity to keep the renewables working, transmission improvements (if you care to cover the Sahara in mirrors...you could even put them in space) and fusion reactors.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like I always ask, how long with fossil fuels last? Shouldn’t we get out ahead of this issue?


Proven coal reserves are over a trillion tons.   That’s enough for another 100 years of current CO2 emissions.

The problem isn’t whether we have enough fossil fuels.  We have lots.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Proven coal reserves are over a trillion tons.   That’s enough for another 100 years of current CO2 emissions.
> 
> The problem isn’t whether we have enough fossil fuels.  We have lots.


Eventually they no longer become cost efficient to produce and we aren't going to blow through liveable temperatures before then.  Hate to say it but Husker is right here...the twin problem is you eventually run out of fossil fuels.  which means tech is the ONLY solution.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> p.s. on a long enough time horizon we will also RUN OUT OF OIL which is going to happen potentially sooner than we breach through liveable temperatures along the tropics zones.  Again, if the tech doesn't keep us above water we're doomed.  The biggest tech breakthroughs that would make the biggest difference are battery capacity to keep the renewables working, transmission improvements (if you care to cover the Sahara in mirrors...you could even put them in space) and fusion reactors.


Run out of oil?   How?  We know how to turn coal into crude.  






						Coal liquefaction - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




If our goal is to cook ourselves, we have plenty of fuel for the oven.


----------



## Grace T.

A much more immediate threat to our existence than climate change:


----------



## Ellejustus

This take heartless to another level


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Run out of oil?   How?  We know how to turn coal into crude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coal liquefaction - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If our goal is to cook ourselves, we have plenty of fuel for the oven.


The question is the cost.  You could solve climate change tomorrow by declaring the socialist Bolivarian revolution and reducing everyone (except the elites of course) to Venezuelan type poverty.  The left has a grain of truth when they say the problem is capitalism.  Yup...it's the system that made the West vastly better off than what it was like in preindustrial London or Paris...it's a problem that everyone is not poor anymore and wants to consume and that the third world wants it too.  But you can't even get people to switch to GMO locally grown food without complaining let alone give up their Starbucks.  Giving up planes, meat, hot showers, single family homes and shooting the dogs simply isn't going to happen.  Once you get to a certain level of energy exhaustion, you effectively get there too.

There's also the other solution: you could wipe out Thanos style a good chunk of the population.  But people don't seem to want to go there either.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Interesting how CA ban single use plastics, yet will require every single student to wear a single use plastic mask instead of a cloth one…..5x a week/per student.   That’s a LOT of waste that can’t be recycled.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Run out of oil?   How?  We know how to turn coal into crude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coal liquefaction - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If our goal is to cook ourselves, we have plenty of fuel for the oven.


Aren't we one major volcanic eruption from the next ice age?


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Interesting how CA ban single use plastics, yet will require every single student to wear a single use plastic mask instead of a cloth one…..5x a week/per student.   That’s a LOT of waste that can’t be recycled.


My favorite is the paper straw in the big disposable plastic cup.

Most of the "green" measures are pure tokenism.  About the only thing that has a chance is population control/reduction, but the odds of that happening are slim to none.  I will wait to for the next global cooling period.  I mean its only been 50 years since we were worrying about that.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> At the moment you posted that, more than half of California's electricity was being produced by renewables.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California ISO - Supply, Today's Outlook
> 
> 
> View real-time and historical data on generation resources, including renewables, currently on the system.
> 
> 
> 
> www.caiso.com


Yes, and doing very well.  A shining example of energy management - rolling brownouts aside..


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The question is the cost.  You could solve climate change tomorrow by declaring the socialist Bolivarian revolution and reducing everyone (except the elites of course) to Venezuelan type poverty.  The left has a grain of truth when they say the problem is capitalism.  Yup...it's the system that made the West vastly better off than what it was like in preindustrial London or Paris...it's a problem that everyone is not poor anymore and wants to consume and that the third world wants it too.  But you can't even get people to switch to GMO locally grown food without complaining let alone give up their Starbucks.  Giving up planes, meat, hot showers, single family homes and shooting the dogs simply isn't going to happen.  Once you get to a certain level of energy exhaustion, you effectively get there too.
> 
> There's also the other solution: you could wipe out Thanos style a good chunk of the population.  But people don't seem to want to go there either.


You ignore the small changes.  Drive a small car instead of a large one.  Eat chicken instead of beef.  Let people build homes close to work.  Buy 2 new shirts per year instead of ten.

There is a lot you can do without moving to a sod house and eating crickets.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You ignore the small changes.  Drive a small car instead of a large one.  Eat chicken instead of beef.  Let people build homes close to work.  Buy 2 new shirts per year instead of ten.
> 
> There is a lot you can do without moving to a sod house and eating crickets.


The biggest contribution you could have made is to not have children.  But you went ahead and did it anyways.  So don't tell me it's an emergency if you didn't act like it.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Aren't we one major volcanic eruption from the next ice age?


Yeah the wyoming volcano is much more threatening to us.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Yes, and doing very well.  A shining example of energy management - rolling brownouts aside..


Yeah if you are asking the population not to use energy from 4  to 7 it's a problem.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The biggest contribution you could have made is to not have children.  But you went ahead and did it anyways.  So don't tell me it's an emergency if you didn't act like it.


If every woman limited herself to having only one daughter the population crisis would be over in one generation.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> If every woman limited herself to having only one daughter the population crisis would be over in one generation.


a. it would collapse the social welfare pyramids of both the eastern and western states (which is why his demand is so often coupled with a demand for socialist revolution), or sacrificing the old people (which isn't a fashionable thing since covid since we've turned the expectation on having children having to sacrifice for old people)
b. it brings economic and societal strains that have the potential for collapsing society (see China).
c. How you going to enforce it?  Parenting licenses?   Your authoritarian streak is showing.
d. If you truly cared about the environment, and don't want to put an authoritarian licensing scheme in place, again why you having children and telling me this is an emergency....you have to make up for the third worlders that are having multiple children.
e. It's a global problem....see COVID....the population "crisis" isn't in the west.
f. How many kids does dad4 have?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The biggest contribution you could have made is to not have children.  But you went ahead and did it anyways.  So don't tell me it's an emergency if you didn't act like it.


Changing the topic and attacking the person?

What a surprise.

The question you keep ducking: if we do not voluntarily limit CO2 emissions, what will prevent CO2 levels from growing above 900 ppm?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Changing the topic and attacking the person?
> 
> What a surprise.
> 
> The question you keep ducking: if we do not voluntarily limit CO2 emissions, what will prevent CO2 levels from growing above 900 ppm?


I answered you.  You are just to dense to see it. They'll eventually be a tech solution.  Otherwise, because of the time problem, if there isn't, we have a lot higher priorities to worry about and we are doomed anyways, so why worry?

Again, if it's an emergency, why'd you have children.  That's not an attack (and you know it).  It's pointing out that your call for minor sacrifices isn't sufficient because something is important to everyone (like having children was to you, which was the WORST thing you could do to the environment).  Seem to recall it was the same the COVID lockdown veto....something is important to everyone....and then again with Arizona tournaments.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I answered you.  You are just to dense to see it. They'll eventually be a tech solution.  Otherwise, because of the time problem, if there isn't, we have a lot higher priorities to worry about and we are doomed anyways, so why worry?
> 
> Again, if it's an emergency, why'd you have children.  That's not an attack (and you know it).  It's pointing out that your call for minor sacrifices isn't sufficient because something is important to everyone (like having children was to you, which was the WORST thing you could do to the environment).  Seem to recall it was the same the COVID lockdown veto....something is important to everyone....and then again with Arizona tournaments.


p.s. I'd also point out that there is an imperfect tech solution in place....nuclear energy that can at least supplement the renewables.  But Germany is taking a step backwards and shutting down its reactors, which on top of everything else makes them more dependent on the Russians.  Government by feeling instead of facts.  If part of your solution isn't nuclear, then again you aren't acting like it's an emergency.  Yeah I know the downsides, but I'm not the one claiming "emergency".


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. it would collapse the social welfare pyramids of both the eastern and western states (which is why his demand is so often coupled with a demand for socialist revolution), or sacrificing the old people (which isn't a fashionable thing since covid since we've turned the expectation on having children having to sacrifice for old people)
> b. it brings economic and societal strains that have the potential for collapsing society (see China).
> c. How you going to enforce it?  Parenting licenses?   Your authoritarian streak is showing.
> d. If you truly cared about the environment, and don't want to put an authoritarian licensing scheme in place, again why you having children and telling me this is an emergency....you have to make up for the third worlders that are having multiple children.
> e. It's a global problem....see COVID....the population "crisis" isn't in the west.
> f. How many kids does dad4 have?


I was addressing the biology, not the politics.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I answered you.  You are just to dense to see it. They'll eventually be a tech solution.  Otherwise, because of the time problem, if there isn't, we have a lot higher priorities to worry about and we are doomed anyways, so why worry?
> 
> Again, if it's an emergency, why'd you have children.  That's not an attack (and you know it).  It's pointing out that your call for minor sacrifices isn't sufficient because something is important to everyone (like having children was to you, which was the WORST thing you could do to the environment).  Seem to recall it was the same the COVID lockdown veto....something is important to everyone....and then again with Arizona tournaments.


fusion and space mirrors? 

I saw it.  I just think it is looney tunes.

There are tech solutions, but they are more down to earth.  Solar farms, off shore wind, nuclear, high voltage DC transmission.  Things we actually know how to build.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> fusion and space mirrors?
> 
> I saw it.  I just think it is looney tunes.
> 
> There are tech solutions, but they are more down to earth.  Solar farms, off shore wind, nuclear, high voltage DC transmission.  Things we actually know how to build.


1. You have a serious lack of comprehension as to the scope of the problem and how massive it is.  As I've said before, renewables, electric cars and "everybody just cut back" a little is a problem so long as India and China insist on industrializing, have their current population, the remainder of the world insists on catching up.  It's not a static problem....it's a problem which gets worse as those countries, with their huge populations, advance.
2. Nuclear.  I just pointed it out.  We have it now.  Don't tell me it's an emergency unless nuclear is part of the solution.
3. Solar farms.  As others have pointed out, we have a storage issue (which is why they scream at us to cut back between 4 and 7 which means its not a viable solution for all our energy needs until the battery problem is fixed, which is one of the tech solutions that's needed).
4. Off shore wind.  Get back to me when California and Martha's vineyard are prepared to do windfarms up and down their coast.
5. high voltage dc transmission.  Yup absolutely!  One of the tech solutions.
6. the biggest dilemma though remains consumption and how you translate everyone on the planet wanting to live like the first world.  That leaves you with only a handful of solutions if you really want to reverse climate change: keep them poor, make everyone poor, or cut down the number of rich people consuming by reducing the number of people.  Because you can't have that number of people consuming beef each day (or fish, or even chickens).  This kinda reminds me of your controlling COVID with masks and indoor dining.  It was never going to be that easy.  The solutions which worked (for a while a least) were highly overarching and authoritarian and were hard to maintain for any length of time.  Anything else was just a bandaid.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> and then again with Arizona tournaments.


In fairness to dad, the grass at Reach 11 is worth dying for. I fell in love with it all over again after the Showcase at the Polo Fields in November.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> p.s. I'd also point out that there is an imperfect tech solution in place....nuclear energy that can at least supplement the renewables.  But Germany is taking a step backwards and shutting down its reactors, which on top of everything else makes them more dependent on the Russians.  Government by feeling instead of facts.  If part of your solution isn't nuclear, then again you aren't acting like it's an emergency.  Yeah I know the downsides, but I'm not the one claiming "emergency".


New reactor designs in development avoid the need for a pressure vessel and thus most of the risk of off-site discharge of radioactive materials such as what happened at Chernobyl and Fukushima, or even the trivial emissions from Three Mile Island.  Perhaps demonstrating safer operation will change the Germans' minds.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/N35gBSp


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You ignore the small changes.  Drive a small car instead of a large one.  Eat chicken instead of beef.  Let people build homes close to work.  Buy 2 new shirts per year instead of ten.
> 
> There is a lot you can do without moving to a sod house and eating crickets.


They use the “all or nothing” like a crutch.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You ignore the small changes.  Drive a small car instead of a large one.  Eat chicken instead of beef.  Let people build homes close to work.  Buy 2 new shirts per year instead of ten.
> 
> There is a lot you can do without moving to a sod house and eating crickets.


Changing from coal to natural gas as fuel for thermal power electric plants cuts CO2 emissions by about 50%.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> They use the “all or nothing” like a crutch.


You ignore the principle of futility because you have to believe there’s an answer to the question “something must done”. You think with your heart and not your brain. News flash: world doesn’t care about your feelings.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Changing from coal to natural gas as fuel for thermal power electric plants cuts CO2 emissions by about 50%.


The us is (joe manchin notwithstanding) already doing that.  Guess the problem must be solved already. So what are we arguing about?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You ignore the principle of futility because you have to believe there’s an answer to the question “something must done”. You think with your heart and not your brain. News flash: world doesn’t care about your feelings.


The brain has lots of solutions.  Some hearts will not accept them.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The us is (joe manchin notwithstanding) already doing that.  Guess the problem must be solved already. So what are we arguing about?


The US still uses coal for about 20% of its electricity production, about on a par with nuclear and renewables.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The US still uses coal for about 20% of its electricity production, about on a par with nuclear and renewables.


Ah really close then. 20% and all done. Doesn’t seem too bad. 


espola said:


> The brain has lots of solutions.  Some hearts will not accept them.


Preaching is supposed to be dad4s thing. And here you had me going it was a measly 20%. To what Jesus do we have to open our hearts to this time?  I hear st fauci is still busy with covid, st gore is still chasing a man bear pig somewhere, and st kerry is flying his private jet somewhere.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Ah really close then. 20% and all done. Doesn’t seem too bad.
> 
> Preaching is supposed to be dad4s thing. And here you had me going it was a measly 20%. To what Jesus do we have to open our hearts to this time?  I hear st fauci is still busy with covid, st gore is still chasing a man bear pig somewhere, and st kerry is flying his private jet somewhere.


If denial is all you have, you should probably stick with your strength.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You ignore the principle of futility because you have to believe there’s an answer to the question “something must done”. You think with your heart and not your brain. News flash: world doesn’t care about your feelings.


Au contraire, you’re emotion is in the drivers seat.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> If denial is all you have, you should probably stick with your strength.


I see you’ve taken dad4s bible and are thumping it.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Au contraire, you’re emotion is in the drivers seat.


Haha. Funny. But comedy is supposed to be espolas thing


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I see you’ve taken dad4s bible and are thumping it.


It appears that you have run out of meaningful things to say.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It appears that you have run out of meaningful things to say.


At least you concede I have something meaningful to say. Others have pointed out to you that your “links?” “Coocoos” and general trolling is less than useful and you don’t really have any meaningful contributions. So there’s that.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> At least you concede I have something meaningful to say. Others have pointed out to you that your “links?” “Coocoos” and general trolling is less than useful and you don’t really have any meaningful contributions. So there’s that.


Nothing I have posted today is meaningful?  Is that your position?  Just more denial?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I see you’ve taken dad4s bible and are thumping it.


And here I thought you were going to actually talk policy instead of just tossing insults.  Silly me.

We were actually getting somewhere back when we were talking about transmission, electric cars, wind, solar, and nuclear.  Those five alone are enough to drastically reduce generation and transmission emissions.  The wind might not always blow, but you can build better transmission line and we can balance the grid by telling cars when to charge.  You’re left with natural gas peaker plants, but very low base emissions.

Kind of shoots a big hole in your “nothing is possible“ argument…


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Nothing I have posted today is meaningful?  Is that your position?  Just more denial?


I’m not the one that called you useless any more than I’m the one that invented “magoo”.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> And here I thought you were going to actually talk policy instead of just tossing insults.  Silly me.
> 
> We were actually getting somewhere back when we were talking about transmission, electric cars, wind, solar, and nuclear.  Those five alone are enough to drastically reduce generation and transmission emissions.  The wind might not always blow, but you can build better transmission line and we can balance the grid by telling cars when to charge.  You’re left with natural gas peaker plants, but very low base emissions.
> 
> Kind of shoots a big hole in your “nothing is possible“ argument…


You, the king of the subtle insult, just love to play the victim, particularly when your own behavior is called into question.  Again don’t tell me it’s an emergency if you are going ahead adestroying the planet yourself. And it’s not just the having children thing. You do club soccer with the extra driving involved which is bad for the environment, are all for Arizona tournaments and let’s not forget the blind eye you turned towards the damage masks are doing let alone your takeout containers. But everyone else you expect to sacrifice a little. 

and again just like the let’s just mask and do internal dining, you don’t comprehend the size of the problem or the time factor. It’s not a static problem. It’s one that gets worse since everyone wants to be the us and live the us lifestyle. Just having a single family home for all those families would be ecologically ruinous let alone a dog and hamburgers for all of them. The problem is under the water and you are just concerned with the ice berg tip.

and I posted the video for why on why electric cars aren’t as much of a savings as you think. You are better off driving an existing beater into the ground than manufacturing a new Tesla.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not the one that called you useless any more than I’m the one that invented “magoo”.


I see.  You want to say the words, but you want to preserve denial of owning the words.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I see.  You want to say the words, but you want to preserve denial of owning the words.


Again your comprehension is lacking. The point is I’m just not the only one that holds you in such high esteem. If you are going to damn me, feel free to critique that I’m not clever enough to make it up myself…though I certainly enjoy being the one to shove it in your face.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> At least you concede I have something meaningful to say. Others have pointed out to you that your “links?” “Coocoos” and general trolling is less than useful and you don’t really have any meaningful contributions. So there’s that.


Why do you consider a request for accountability, like “link?”, “trolling”? To which I might add that request is rarely if ever answered and is always aimed at those trying to push sketchy data . . . sound familiar?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You, the king of the subtle insult, just love to play the victim, particularly when your own behavior is called into question.  Again don’t tell me it’s an emergency if you are going ahead adestroying the planet yourself. And it’s not just the having children thing. You do club soccer with the extra driving involved which is bad for the environment, are all for Arizona tournaments and let’s not forget the blind eye you turned towards the damage masks are doing let alone your takeout containers. But everyone else you expect to sacrifice a little.
> 
> and again just like the let’s just mask and do internal dining, you don’t comprehend the size of the problem or the time factor. It’s not a static problem. It’s one that gets worse since everyone wants to be the us and live the us lifestyle. Just having a single family home for all those families would be ecologically ruinous let alone a dog and hamburgers for all of them. The problem is under the water and you are just concerned with the ice berg tip.
> 
> and I posted the video for why on why electric cars aren’t as much of a savings as you think. You are better off driving an existing beater into the ground than manufacturing a new Tesla.


The argument that the past use of fossil fuels precludes one from mentioning the ill effects of such is silly. We will of course use what we have to build the future, to progress.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> The argument that the past use of fossil fuels precludes one from mentioning the ill effects of such is silly. We will of course use what we have to build the future, to progress.


Sure but in this case the sinner has yet to repent. Otherwise a great rebuttal would be: yeah I’ve sinned in the past man but I just pulled my daughter from club soccer, told her I’m only paying for a local college and am lecturing her to get her tubes tied constantly.  Because then you are just like the politicians telling us to mask and social distance but then remove their masks when the cameras aren’t watching, go maskless when they feel their groove come on, have  Christmas and birthdays during lockdown, go on out of state vacations, get their haircuts or go to fancy French restaurants.


Hüsker Dü said:


> Why do you consider a request for accountability, like “link?”, “trolling”? To which I might add that request is rarely if ever answered and is always aimed at those trying to push sketchy data . . . sound familiar?


It’s funny to have a troll defending a troll. What makes him better at it is that he actually thinks he is some kind of accountability police when that accountability is only demanded one way in a place he thinks is some great debating forum for the ages.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Sure but in this case the sinner has yet to repent. Otherwise a great rebuttal would be: yeah I’ve sinned in the past man but I just pulled my daughter from club soccer, told her I’m only paying for a local college and am lecturing her to get her tubes tied constantly.  Because then you are just like the politicians telling us to mask and social distance but then remove their masks when the cameras aren’t watching, go maskless when they feel their groove come on, have  Christmas and birthdays during lockdown, go on out of state vacations, get their haircuts or go to fancy French restaurants.
> 
> It’s funny to have a troll defending a troll. What makes him better at it is that he actually thinks he is some kind of accountability police when that accountability is only demanded one way in a place he thinks is some great debating forum for the ages.


First with the all or nothing defense then with the defending your trolling by pointing your finger? Lol! We are all trolling in here, that’s all this is. Not much in the way of seeing the other sides point . . . especially when the data in question can’t be reviewed. Sound familiar?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> First with the all or nothing defense then with the defending your trolling by pointing your finger? Lol! We are all trolling in here, that’s all this is. Not much in the way of seeing the other sides point . . . especially when the data in question can’t be reviewed. Sound familiar?


You espola (when he’s not doing comedy) and golden gate are trolling (btw you can throw in the 13 coils here too but right wing trolling is never as clever as left wing trolling…true to form it usually just descends into racism).  People like dad4 and norcaldad are preaching. Most of the rest of us are just shooting the shit (not engaged in some great debate for the ages). Then of course you have crush.  Oh yeah and evil goalie who is halfway between a reverse crush and a real data driver (which you don’t see much in this forum from other side).  Hound and I are probably the two closest to data drivers on this side since we are constantly throwing up links but you just don’t like what we link or call it fringe and unlike evil goalie don’t do original work but mostly just rehash what others on our side are thinking. You can ascribe value to any of these approaches as you like but here’s a hint: i started with what was easiest to do and among the 3 you arent the best at it.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> *We are all trolling in here*, *that’s all this is.*


This is the first time you have been honest.  However, "we" is for you Husler, not for me.  What is your name?  My name is Billy.  If you give up your name, then you're not a troll.  Grace T is Grace, dah.....  She has shared from her heart over the years, the good and the challenges of trying to raise three sons and one is a GK I think.  I was trying to raise my dd in club soccer and I saw lot's of problems with how the girls and some parents were being treated by assholes, so I came here to ask questions.  1/26/2022 and were still talking to the same assholes who won;t let people work or be free without two jabs + Boosters + plus 95mask.  I don;t believe you are a troll.  Espola evaluates soccer players to see if their the next Mia.   You know what you are and that's all that matters.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> You espola (when he’s not doing comedy) and golden gate are trolling (btw you can throw in the 13 coils here too but right wing trolling is never as clever as left wing trolling…true to form it usually just descends into racism).  People like dad4 and norcaldad are preaching. Most of the rest of us are just shooting the shit (not engaged in some great debate for the ages). Then of course you have crush.  Oh yeah and evil goalie who is halfway between a reverse crush and a real data driver (which you don’t see much in this forum from other side).  Hound and I are probably the two closest to data drivers on this side since we are constantly throwing up links but you just don’t like what we link or call it fringe and unlike evil goalie don’t do original work but mostly just rehash what others on our side are thinking. You can ascribe value to any of these approaches as you like but here’s a hint: i started with what was easiest to do and among the 3 you arent the best at it.


Crush is the real deal and is hoping to come back after suspension is lifted.   Crush is Billy.  EJ was my old self but the only avatar that I could turn back on.  Dom does not hold them all accountable to what one says.  This has been fun but it's now getting to the boiling point.  I am one big kid at heart.  I never grew up like so many of you.  This place is so full of you know what.  I like to poke bears and then stand in front of them and pierce them with my eyes and see them turn away.


----------



## Ellejustus

*"Big day today as the Feds try to fight inflation and Russia"*


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Run out of oil?   How?  We know how to turn coal into crude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coal liquefaction - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If our goal is to cook ourselves, we have plenty of fuel for the oven.


For those who are concerned about climate change and demand action


Grace T. said:


> Yeah if you are asking the population not to use energy from 4  to 7 it's a problem.


The problem with renewables like solar and wind is they are unreliable. 

We need on demand power. 

So what happens is with renewables you still need baseline power. And those plants do not turn on and off. They have to be on. 

For those who are genuinely concerned about climate change, they should be advocating nuclear power. That is a power source for our factories/cities/electric cars that doesn't give off emissions. And yet most in the movement will not cross that bridge.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> In fairness to dad, the grass at Reach 11 is worth dying for. I fell in love with it all over again after the Showcase at the Polo Fields in November.


I suspect more and more games will be rotated out to the new Legacy fields in the east valley. Reach is excellent. The new place is better.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Changing from coal to natural gas as fuel for thermal power electric plants cuts CO2 emissions by about 50%.


And yet the left wants to cut back on drilling for natural gas. Logical position? Nope.


----------



## Ellejustus

I was at the beach yesterday and the cargo ships are all lined up to try and get in to ports.  The Mother Truckers might just save the day for us Hound. Imagine that.  I met many mother truckers on the road a few months ago and these guys will not obey dumb rules.  Trust me, I saw them drive faster then 65 MPH.  I had one dude on my ass and he was not going to go around me and then flipped me off as I got over to the shoulder.  Dude was late I guess.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I suspect more and more games will be rotated out to the new Legacy fields in the east valley. Reach is excellent. The new place is better.


Better? Your cup runneth over. Good for you guys in Phoenix! Looks like the Showcase in April is at Reach 11 for the older girls.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> And yet the left wants to cut back on drilling for natural gas. Logical position? Nope.


Chemically identical to conventional natural gas, renewable natural gas (RNG) is the purified product used as a vehicle fuel, which is produced from decaying organic materials. Biomethane, which is another term for this processed pipeline-quality fuel, refers to biogas that has been treated to be interchangeable with traditional natural gas but is often used separately from vehicle applications. Like conventional natural gas, RNG can be compressed (CNG) or liquefied (LNG) for use in vehicles. 



			Alternative Fuels Data Center: Natural Gas Production
		

.


----------



## Ellejustus

Keep obeying the mandates you guys.  Obey doctors orders.  Look what Joe and his crew are up to now.  Here are the facts that I know.  We will all be scared to death soon. Fear will go away because we will ALL be looking at sure death and will come to terms with it and then the mother of all wars.  The truth is, we have always been living with death.  Problem is, the assholes hid the truth from all of us who born at this time.  So many are so scared to die.  We need to heal from the fear of death and embrace certain death with valor and dignity.  That way, we can all live in the moment together, one day at a time


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You espola (when he’s not doing comedy) and golden gate are trolling (btw you can throw in the 13 coils here too but right wing trolling is never as clever as left wing trolling…true to form it usually just descends into racism).  People like dad4 and norcaldad are preaching. Most of the rest of us are just shooting the shit (not engaged in some great debate for the ages). Then of course you have crush.  Oh yeah and evil goalie who is halfway between a reverse crush and a real data driver (which you don’t see much in this forum from other side).  Hound and I are probably the two closest to data drivers on this side since we are constantly throwing up links but you just don’t like what we link or call it fringe and unlike evil goalie don’t do original work but mostly just rehash what others on our side are thinking. You can ascribe value to any of these approaches as you like but here’s a hint: i started with what was easiest to do and among the 3 you arent the best at it.


I can accept that . . . with the exception of the “Hound and I” part. That is certainly up for debate. And yes when your links expose an opinion writer with a known slanted agenda or fabricated from whole cloth data, yes those don’t work for me. 
Espola attempts to engage in meaningful debate of which is too often stifled when he doesn’t just accept that which hasn’t been vetted . . . and then the predictable name calling ensues. Dad tries his best to keep things above board but the trolls from your side of the pitch, and yes you at times, insist on insisting.
I’m just in the peanut gallery trying to understand how this country has swayed so far from being United. Many forces are trying to divide the US (and other democracies) for their own gain. 
Thanks, rant over for now.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> I suspect more and more games will be rotated out to the new Legacy fields in the east valley. Reach is excellent. The new place is better.


I have to disagree on the last point. Legacy is a great facility, but grass is king. My son said he'd take 7/10 grass over 10/10 turf any day. He's played at Legacy and would take Reach (excluding field 1) every time. He only cares about the field, not the facility. 

I still play and would take grass over artificial every time also, the impact on my (admittedly old) body is night & day different.

That said, I do think more games will be rotated to Legacy - shiny new toy and all that, and everything in one place given the number of fields.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Better? Your cup runneth over. Good for you guys in Phoenix! Looks like the Showcase in April is at Reach 11 for the older girls.


Unfortunately no 18/19 teams. My DD is still a junior and just found out the school she had a verbal commit with...the coach just left.


----------



## Desert Hound

whatithink said:


> I have to disagree on the last point. Legacy is a great facility, but grass is king. My son said he'd take 7/10 grass over 10/10 turf any day. He's played at Legacy and would take Reach (excluding field 1) every time. He only cares about the field, not the facility.
> 
> I still play and would take grass over artificial every time also, the impact on my (admittedly old) body is night & day different.
> 
> That said, I do think more games will be rotated to Legacy - shiny new toy and all that, and everything in one place given the number of fields.


They have grass fields going in as well. 

I do like grass better vs turf as well.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Unfortunately no 18/19 teams. My DD is still a junior and just found out the school she had a verbal commit with...the coach just left.


Damn - one of dads was just talking about the large turnover of college coaches this season.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> They have grass fields going in as well.
> 
> I do like grass better vs turf as well.


I see that, but haven't been on those fields yet. My kids have only played on the artificial surface so far.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> For those who are genuinely concerned about climate change, they should be advocating nuclear power. That is a power source for our factories/cities/electric cars that doesn't give off emissions. And yet most in the movement will not cross that bridge.


We have too many Charlie Brown's with pantophobia and too many ideologues. It's not a good mix for reasoned problem-solving and my impression is that we have become less able to appropriately assess risk/reward. Of course, when those overseeing endeavors with risk fall short in their responsibilities of transparency, such as in gain of function research, some of it is justified.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can accept that . . . with the exception of the “Hound and I” part. That is certainly up for debate. And yes when your links expose an opinion writer with a known slanted agenda or fabricated from whole cloth data, yes those don’t work for me.
> Espola attempts to engage in meaningful debate of which is too often stifled when he doesn’t just accept that which hasn’t been vetted . . . and then the predictable name calling ensues. Dad tries his best to keep things above board but the trolls from your side of the pitch, and yes you at times, insist on insisting.
> I’m just in the peanut gallery trying to understand how this country has swayed so far from being United. Many forces are trying to divide the US (and other democracies) for their own gain.
> Thanks, rant over for now.


Coocoos and nonsense are not meaningful debate. 
if you want toknow why we are divided look in the mirror.  You dismiss everyone that disagrees with you as slanted, condemn the bad behavior of the side you disagree with but are perfectly fine with and defend folks like espola or the repeated hypocrisy of dad4.
or as my Orwellian translator puts it: “I don’t like anyone that disagrees with me and if you disagree with my overwhelmingly right and virtuous opinions, you are a fringe lunatic and dividing us. Meanwhile those that agree with me can do no wrong because they are on the side of right and virtue”
And no you arent the peanut gallery. You know it, i know it and everyone here knows it. You are trolling but just aren’t as good as the others at it (even soccermavericky does it better). You are as transparent as glass.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You, the king of the subtle insult, just love to play the victim, particularly when your own behavior is called into question.  Again don’t tell me it’s an emergency if you are going ahead adestroying the planet yourself. And it’s not just the having children thing. You do club soccer with the extra driving involved which is bad for the environment, are all for Arizona tournaments and let’s not forget the blind eye you turned towards the damage masks are doing let alone your takeout containers. But everyone else you expect to sacrifice a little.
> 
> and again just like the let’s just mask and do internal dining, you don’t comprehend the size of the problem or the time factor. It’s not a static problem. It’s one that gets worse since everyone wants to be the us and live the us lifestyle. Just having a single family home for all those families would be ecologically ruinous let alone a dog and hamburgers for all of them. The problem is under the water and you are just concerned with the ice berg tip.
> 
> and I posted the video for why on why electric cars aren’t as much of a savings as you think. You are better off driving an existing beater into the ground than manufacturing a new Tesla.


2/3 of that was ad-homimnems.   With respect the the policy points,

Better off fixing an old car than driving a new one?  Sure.  But old cars don’t last forever, so we will still make new ones.  The question is just what type they should be.   I’ll happily agree that the oversize battery in a Tesla undoes much of the benefit of having an electric in the first place.  So don’t choose a Tesla.  Choose cars that are actually efficient.

The world is in trouble if all of China and India decide to live on quarter acre lots and eat hamburgers?  True.  But there is room for each of us to have a nice 3 bedroom flat and a chicken sandwich.  

Will the Kennedys complain if we put windmills in their view?  Maybe.  Put windmills in their view anyway.  And raise the taxes on their aviation fuel while you’re at it.  

The point remains that we can eliminate well over half of electricity and transportation emissions by changing zoning, upgrading long distance transmission lines and switching power generation to wind, solar, and nuclear.   Expensive, but better than not doing it.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> We have too many Charlie Brown's with pantophobia and too many ideologues. It's not a good mix for reasoned problem-solving and my impression is that we have become less able to appropriately assess risk/reward. Of course, when those overseeing endeavors with risk fall short in their responsibilities of transparency, such as in gain of function research, some of it is justified.


The criticism of the left is it mostly cares about feelings (and there is some data to back this up…Jordan Peterson is always throwing it about). The criticism of the right is that it is callous and lacks compassion. But if you are concerned with feelings, problem-solving is a different part of the brain (reason) and feelings don’t care about risk/reward. Feelings only care about being validated and satisfied.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again your comprehension is lacking. The point is I’m just not the only one that holds you in such high esteem. If you are going to damn me, feel free to critique that I’m not clever enough to make it up myself…though I certainly enjoy being the one to shove it in your face.


Reading comprehension!  Drink!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The criticism of the left is it mostly cares about feelings (and there is some data to back this up…Jordan Peterson is always throwing it about). The criticism of the right is that it is callous and lacks compassion. But if you are concerned with feelings, problem-solving is a different part of the brain (reason) and feelings don’t care about risk/reward. Feelings only care about being validated and satisfied.


It's not always left v. right.  Sometimes it's truth v. fantasy.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 2/3 of that was ad-homimnems.   With respect the the policy points,
> 
> Better off fixing an old car than driving a new one?  Sure.  But old cars don’t last forever, so we will still make new ones.  The question is just what type they should be.   I’ll happily agree that the oversize battery in a Tesla undoes much of the benefit of having an electric in the first place.  So don’t choose a Tesla.  Choose cars that are actually efficient.
> 
> The world is in trouble if all of China and India decide to live on quarter acre lots and eat hamburgers?  True.  But there is room for each of us to have a nice 3 bedroom flat and a chicken sandwich.
> 
> Will the Kennedys complain if we put windmills in their view?  Maybe.  Put windmills in their view anyway.  And raise the taxes on their aviation fuel while you’re at it.
> 
> The point remains that we can eliminate well over half of electricity and transportation emissions by changing zoning, upgrading long distance transmission lines and switching power generation to wind, solar, and nuclear.   Expensive, but better than not doing it.


A world where folks have a 3 bedroom flat and eat chicken sandwiches is not going to happen. You want Venezuela light I see. If you think such sacrifice is easy you can start by pulling your kid out of travel soccer and telling her you’ll only pay for a local school.  My burger may be very well important to me (not to mention the cow bone to my dog).  If you aren’t prepared to show we are in an emergency by changing your life, don’t lecture me about mine. And unless you are prepared to execute the bolivaran revolution to force that, you are preaching again (only this time doing it badly since you aren’t even walking the walking but preaching hellfire and damnation while everyone knows the preacher is going out to the Whore house on saturdays and Sundays). And what’s worse is you put a cherry on top of it all with your masks and takeout (which hopefully is all vegetarian or chicken).
And don’t decry “oh the ads”. Pointing out your hypocrisy and lack of urgency isn’t an ad (it’s showing you don’t believe your own message and just want to virtue signal to feel good about yourself). And you’ve lost that right anyhow oh king of the subtle insult.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Reading comprehension!  Drink!


Complaining about ads and playing the victim all while doing the subtle dig….chug!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's not always left v. right.  Sometimes it's truth v. fantasy.


More like emotional delusion v reason.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> We have too many Charlie Brown's with pantophobia and too many ideologues. It's not a good mix for reasoned problem-solving and my impression is that we have become less able to appropriately assess risk/reward. Of course, when those overseeing endeavors with risk fall short in their responsibilities of transparency, such as in gain of function research, some of it is justified.


Pantophobia?  I had to look that one up.

I myself have a fear of misplaced apostrophes.





__





						Don't fear the apostrophe
					






					grammarguide.copydesk.org
				




Actually, it's more like a distaste than a fear.

And what is missing from the transparency about gain of function research?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> More like emotional delusion v reason.


Good for you.  The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> They use the “all or nothing” like a crutch.


It's not a matter of "all or nothing", its a matter of substance over form.  The left is the king of virtue signaling.  Paper straws for example.  (and I couldn't care less what my straws are made out of but paper straws have zero green impact).  Population control is a non-starter; whereas, nuclear power and battery technology would be a great place to start as opposed to crazy diesel engine regulations that only increase the cost of everything and provide little benefit to the environment.  It's also the less privileged that are hurt the most by the token "green" regulations.  It's easy to say drive a electric car when you can afford it and have charging access at your home.  Not so easy when you can't afford one and live in an apartment.

To take a page out of Grace's book, we need to do what works not what feels good.  If does both great!


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Good for you.  The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem.


I see there is no hope for you even when I outright mention the word “delusional”


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It's not a matter of "all or nothing", its a matter of substance over form.  The left is the king of virtue signaling.  Paper straws for example.  (and I couldn't care less what my straws are made out of but paper straws have zero green impact).  Population control is a non-starter; whereas, nuclear power and battery technology would be a great place to start as opposed to crazy diesel engine regulations that only increase the cost of everything and provide little benefit to the environment.  It's also the less privileged that are hurt the most by the token "green" regulations.  It's easy to say drive a electric car when you can afford it and have charging access at your home.  Not so easy when you can't afford one and live in an apartment.
> 
> To take a page out of Grace's book, we need to do what works not what feels good.  If does both great!


I drive an E85 car, which is sort of a compromise, especially when I need fuel and there is no E85 station available so I have to use regular gasoline.

To confess, I didn't do this as a result of a drawn-out research plan into green alternatives.  My wife's car was totaled due to a flood (in Rancho Bernardo, no less) and her car-savvy friend found this car as a short-term replacement until she got the bigger car she wanted for her real estate business.  Then it became mine, replacing the 25-year-old pickup I had been driving for years.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Complaining about ads and playing the victim all while doing the subtle dig….chug!


So reply to the policy items and stop calling other people stupid.

Very large CO2 emissions reductions are possible by changing zoning, upgrading y[transmission lines, building non-fossil fuel power generation, and choosing small electric cars for most new vehicles.  Ball is in your court.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I drive an E85 car, which is sort of a compromise, especially when I need fuel and there is no E85 station available so I have to use regular gasoline.
> 
> To confess, I didn't do this as a result of a drawn-out research plan into green alternatives.  My wife's car was totaled due to a flood (in Rancho Bernardo, no less) and her car-savvy friend found this car as a short-term replacement until she got the bigger car she wanted for her real estate business.  Then it became mine, replacing the 25-year-old pickup I had been driving for years.


I wouldn't hesitate to buy an electric car when its time for a new car.  I'm not a fan of ethanol as a solution, not being critical of your E85, just from what I've read I don't think its a good way to go (energy and land required to produce it, etc.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> So reply to the policy items and stop calling other people stupid.
> 
> Very large CO2 emissions reductions are possible by changing zoning, upgrading y[transmission lines, building non-fossil fuel power generation, and choosing small electric cars for most new vehicles.  Ball is in your court.


I would just add that you have to add shit ton of charging stations to this equation.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to buy an electric car when its time for a new car.  I'm not a fan of ethanol as a solution, not being critical of your E85, just from what I've read I don't think its a good way to go (energy and land required to produce it, etc.


Ethanol began as a subsidy to corn farmers.  Last time I looked at it, the whole process was net negative for energy.  You use more fuel to make the extra fertilizer than you create by fermenting the corn.

Might be better now if they are using waste products like stalks for the fermentation.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I would just add that you have to add shit ton of charging stations to this equation.


Especially because I’m recommending the more efficient cars which have a more limited range.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So reply to the policy items and stop calling other people stupid.
> 
> Very large CO2 emissions reductions are possible by changing zoning, upgrading y[transmission lines, building non-fossil fuel power generation, and choosing small electric cars for most new vehicles.  Ball is in your court.


a. while I might very well call espola stupid, I would never dream of calling you stupid.  I do critique your line of thinking.  It is limited when it comes to certain issues where you go with emotions instead of reasoning.  This is one of them.  You also repeatedly ignore the time factor which is why you've been called out on it time and time again (you are playing 3 d chess when you need to be playing 4...espola is still playing 2 and not even doing that very well).  You also repeatedly treat things like they are a US only problem and fail to factor in the rest of the world.That doesn't mean you are stupid and I actually have a lot of respect for your intellectual chops.  I just think you let your emotions get the better of you.
b. I agree those steps would lead to less CO2 emissions.  Like your "masks and indoor dining" though it's not enough particularly as this is a problem that GLOBALLY grows with TIME.
c. Here we have a philosophical disagreement.  Like many on the left, your inclination is to "do something" because it makes us feel better, even if it causes suffering on others and doesn't rectify the problem.  My position is sure do that, so long as it doesn't hurt others (particularly if it doesn't solve the problem).
d. The car thing is the perfect example.  The policy to work isn't "choosing small electric cars for most new vehicles"....it's "and run existing beaters into the ground".
e. That leaves you in the end with a dilemma and a choice that you always seem to be reluctant to articulate and go full all in, because I suspect you are conscious of your authoritarian tendencies and want to keep them in check knowing that if you don't you'll go full Mao.  We saw it with your admiration for Australian, New Zealand and China even though you never came out and said yeah let's do that.  We see it here with your wanting to ban people from getting big cars, wanting to force the Obamas to get windfarms and the Kerrys to stop flying private, wanting to take the bone out of my dog's mouth and the burger from my hand, and wanting to force everyone into flats (except when the sacrifice is required from you of course, since club soccer and masks are totally o.k.).  In the end, you know deep down inside what would be required....you just don't want to say it so you prefer to preach about it and hope for the best (which in the end I really don't see as all that different than my faith in humans and technological solutions).


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Especially because I’m recommending the more efficient cars which have a more limited range.


There's another Adam video that goes into this.  It has environmental repercussions too particularly given the issue of fast charging, absent a technology solution.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I would just add that you have to add shit ton of charging stations to this equation.


If the US went heavy electric vehicles we would need to build a lot more power plants. Right now that would mean mainly fossil fuel type plants.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> There's another Adam video that goes into this.  It has environmental repercussions too particularly given the issue of fast charging, absent a technology solution.


Every option option has environmental repercussions, as long as we're on this earth.  I think we can find a better balance (which likely will still include fossil fuels to some extent).


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Ethanol began as a subsidy to corn farmers.  Last time I looked at it, the whole process was net negative for energy.  You use more fuel to make the extra fertilizer than you create by fermenting the corn.
> 
> Might be better now if they are using waste products like stalks for the fermentation.


You haven't looked in over 20 years?





__





						Ethanol fuel energy balance - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> If the US went heavy electric vehicles we would need to build a lot more power plants. Right now that would mean mainly fossil fuel type plants.


No doubt.  That's the conundrum were facing if people are unwilling to go nuclear.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to buy an electric car when its time for a new car.  I'm not a fan of ethanol as a solution, not being critical of your E85, just from what I've read I don't think its a good way to go (energy and land required to produce it, etc.


Think of ethanol as stored solar energy.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> If the US went heavy electric vehicles we would need to build a lot more power plants. Right now that would mean mainly fossil fuel type plants.


Charging network plus power plants plus solving the fast charge problem plus (at least in the US) coming to a common standard (otherwise you need the charging station which works for your particular vehicles)


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Every option option has environmental repercussions, as long as we're on this earth.  I think we can find a better balance (which likely will still include fossil fuels to some extent).


Agree but I also think it involves accepting that there will be some climate change and the need to adapt to it (at least until there is some bigger tech solution for that).

In the long long run, over enough time, I also think we are all either doomed or off planet because something is going to get us (and of those things, climate change if fairly low on my list to lose sleep over).  Far more worried about a nuclear exchange over the Baltics or Taiwan than the earth warming to a cinder or COVID.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Think of ethanol as stored solar energy.


That's one way to think about, but then lets just cut out the middle man, and go straight from sun to energy (I get the stored part I just don't know how efficient corn is at storage).   Corn requires a lot of water as well.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> That's one way to think about, but then lets just cut out the middle man, and go straight from sun to energy (I get the stored part I just don't know how efficient corn is at storage).   Corn requires a lot of water as well.


Most US corn is produced in states that get their water from the sky.  Hey, that's where the sun is too!









						US Corn Production By State: The Top 11 Rankings [in 2022] | CropProphet
					

What state produces the most corn? Is it the same states year-after-year? Does early-season flooding impact the rankings?




					www.cropprophet.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. while I might very well call espola stupid, I would never dream of calling you stupid.  I do critique your line of thinking.  It is limited when it comes to certain issues where you go with emotions instead of reasoning.  This is one of them.  You also repeatedly ignore the time factor which is why you've been called out on it time and time again (you are playing 3 d chess when you need to be playing 4...espola is still playing 2 and not even doing that very well).  You also repeatedly treat things like they are a US only problem and fail to factor in the rest of the world.That doesn't mean you are stupid and I actually have a lot of respect for your intellectual chops.  I just think you let your emotions get the better of you.
> b. I agree those steps would lead to CO2 emissions.  Like your "masks and indoor dining" though it's not enough particularly as this is a problem that GLOBALLY grows with TIME.
> c. Here we have a philosophical disagreement.  Like many on the left, your inclination is to "do something" because it makes us feel better, even if it causes suffering on others and doesn't rectify the problem.  My position is sure do that, so long as it doesn't hurt others.
> d. The car thing is the perfect example.  The policy to work isn't "choosing small electric cars for most new vehicles"....it's "and run existing beaters into the ground".
> e. That leaves you in the end with a dilemma and a choice that you always seem to be reluctant to articulate and go full all in, because I suspect you are conscious of your authoritarian tendencies and want to keep them in check knowing that if you don't you'll go full Mao.  We saw it with your admiration for Australian, New Zealand and China even though you never came out and said yeah let's do that.  We see it here with your wanting to ban people from getting big cars, wanting to force the Obamas to get windfarms and the Kerrys to stop flying private, wanting to take the bone out of my dog's mouth and the burger from my hand, and wanting to force everyone into flats (except when the sacrifice is required from you of course, since club soccer and masks are totally o.k.).  In the end, you know deep down inside what would be required....you just don't want to say it so you prefer to preach about it and hope for the best (which in the end I really don't see as all that different than my faith in humans and technological solutions).


”Maintain your old car” is not inconsistent with “buy electric for the new one.”.   We can, and should, do both.

The rest is just more insults.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> Unfortunately no 18/19 teams. My DD is still a junior and just found out the school she had a verbal commit with...the coach just left.


Well, that sucks bro.


kickingandscreaming said:


> Damn - one of dads was just talking about the large turnover of college coaches this season.


How about all those transfers going to USC football?  My dd and I were just talking about how  weird it would be if she would have emailed the coach in 7th grade at one school we were told to email has had three coaches already.  School first is for Juniors and seniors, not a 7th grader.  Plus, kids want to play for a good coach.  Girls get ripped for club hopping and looking for a good match with a coach.  It's recipe for so much pain for our girls.  Think about the players who gave SC everything and now their seat is taken from a transfer?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Most US corn is produced in states that get their water from the sky.  Hey, that's where the sun is too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Corn Production By State: The Top 11 Rankings [in 2022] | CropProphet
> 
> 
> What state produces the most corn? Is it the same states year-after-year? Does early-season flooding impact the rankings?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cropprophet.com


Don't we all effectively get our water from the sky?  I appreciate that there is stored water in aquifers, but...


----------



## Desert Hound

The lack of awareness regarding many using/advocating electric vehicles is always interesting. 

- They don't realize that in most cases in the US their electricity comes from fossil fuel powered plants
- They like to say drilling for oil harms the environment...completely overlooking the fact that to get the materials needed for batteries requires mining on a large scale. 

And so on. 

I am not against electric. But it isn't nearly as clean as it is presented to be.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> ”Maintain your old car” is not inconsistent with “buy electric for the new one.”.   We can, and should, do both.
> 
> The rest is just more insults.


I see you are going with the ol run away from critiques and say its a personal attack rather than answer the critique head on (even when I've explained and actually said something nice I admire about you).

You still end up in your box BTW, which you can't figure out a way out of, because you don't want to go fully authoritarian, so settle for the preaching.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> That's one way to think about, but then lets just cut out the middle man, and go straight from sun to energy (I get the stored part I just don't know how efficient corn is at storage).   Corn requires a lot of water as well.


Magnetism bro.  You need to get "Magnetized" brother.  It's real and Tesla knows all about and so does the planet.  We were so dumbed down that they kept it from us.  Anyone who used their brain and figured free wireless energy was killed.  That wanted to "charge" you and control you with a + and -.  You of all people will be blown away when you see the TRUTH.  It was always here, we were just lied to


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> You haven't looked in over 20 years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethanol fuel energy balance - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


USDA is not exactly an impartial observer on this, and 1.24 or 1.3 is not really good enough to justify the land use.

On the other hand, if the 5.4 switchgrass number holds up, I may become an ethanol fan.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Don't we all effectively get our water from the sky?  I appreciate that there is stored water in aquifers, but...


Well, sort of.  But down in San Diego, the sky that provides most of your water is rather far away.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Agree but I also think it involves accepting that there will be some climate change and the need to adapt to it (at least until there is some bigger tech solution for that).
> 
> In the long long run, over enough time, I also think we are all either doomed or off planet because something is going to get us (and of those things, climate change if fairly low on my list to lose sleep over).  Far more worried about a nuclear exchange over the Baltics or Taiwan than the earth warming to a cinder or COVID.


I don't disagree and I ultimately think the sun and earth have much stronger control over the climate than we do.  I think we've done a tremendous job in certain cases with improving water quality.  Maybe a more efficient approach is to improve things on a case by case basis, i.e. scars here and there on the earth instead of trying to implement global policies that are likely to fail for a variety of reasons.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Don't we all effectively get our water from the sky?  I appreciate that there is stored water in aquifers, but...


Yes, but some of us depend on long canals to get the sky water into our taps and toilets.  Not a lot of that in Illinois.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> USDA is not exactly an impartial observer on this, and 1.24 or 1.3 is not really good enough to justify the land use.
> 
> On the other hand, if the 5.4 switchgrass number holds up, I may become an ethanol fan.


I remember w standing in what looked like a Texas roadside ditch the first time he brought up switchgrass.  I got the impression it was essentially a free weed, sort of like the blackberries that grow alongside the roads in Oregon.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Yes, but some of us depend on long canals to get the sky water into our taps and toilets.  Not a lot of that in Illinois.


California needs to up its water storage. The last major water projects in the state were in the 60s. Since that time the population has more than doubled.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The lack of awareness regarding many using/advocating electric vehicles is always interesting.
> 
> - They don't realize that in most cases in the US their electricity comes from fossil fuel powered plants
> - They like to say drilling for oil harms the environment...completely overlooking the fact that to get the materials needed for batteries requires mining on a large scale.
> 
> And so on.
> 
> I am not against electric. But it isn't nearly as clean as it is presented to be.


They oversell electric, but it is still a big win.  

A small electric car gets about 4 miles per kilowatt hour.  A comparable size gasoline car with similar acceleration would get about 30 mpg.

Which means you have to ask whether 15 kilowatt hours are worse then two gallons of gasoline.  

The electricity costs you 12.75 pounds of CO2.  (using national average of .85 lbs per kwh)
The gas costs you 37.48 pounds of CO2.  (average of 18.74 lbs per gallon)

Over the 180,000 mile life of the car, that saves you about 37 tons of CO2.

You still have to make the battery, which is more energy intensive than making a combustion engine.  But you’re still saving around 30 tons of CO2 per car.   

More, if you can switch to non-carbon power generation for your lithium refining.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> California needs to up its water storage. The last major water projects in the state were in the 60s. Since that time the population has more than doubled.


"Whisky is for drinking, water is for fighting".

Had a property in Utah that I subdivided.  Only well water for drinking and local ditch for irrigation.  Let me just say, you learn about your neighbors.  Fun times getting that approved.  Best part is the most opposition came from those that just recently subdivided or built themselves. 

"The difference between a developer and an environmentalist is a developer wants to build a house in the woods and an environmentalist already owns a house in the woods."


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Especially because I’m recommending the more efficient cars which have a more limited range.


You also once recommended LA tear out much of its “green space” to build housing.  Not very “climate friendly”.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Coocoos and nonsense are not meaningful debate.
> if you want toknow why we are divided look in the mirror.  You dismiss everyone that disagrees with you as slanted, condemn the bad behavior of the side you disagree with but are perfectly fine with and defend folks like espola or the repeated hypocrisy of dad4.
> or as my Orwellian translator puts it: “I don’t like anyone that disagrees with me and if you disagree with my overwhelmingly right and virtuous opinions, you are a fringe lunatic and dividing us. Meanwhile those that agree with me can do no wrong because they are on the side of right and virtue”
> And no you arent the peanut gallery. You know it, i know it and everyone here knows it. You are trolling but just aren’t as good as the others at it (even soccermavericky does it better). You are as transparent as glass.


You are projecting on me your preferred stereotype. We had checks and balances within the political system and amongst the parties themselves. The extremist back in the day were neutralized, not so much anymore. When Sarah Palin opened her mouth on a national stage (and began attracting believers) things started going sideways. 
I agree with many, if not most, of what traditional conservatives ‘say’ they are about. The reality often doesn’t always resemble the talk. The “trump style Republicans” and their base aren’t preaching policy to disagree with they are pushing their aggrieved feelings. 
Policy? What policy? 
As the right pulls further away they look back thinking it’s an equal split. We now have American political pundits siding with Putin, think about that.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You also once recommended LA tear out much of its “green space” to build housing.  Not very “climate friendly”.


Green space?  No.  I recommended you allow dense development in places you already allow buildings.  Quite climate friendly.  And it would make that toy subway of yours look a little less silly.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Green space?  No.  I recommended you allow dense development in places you already allow buildings.  Quite climate friendly.  And it would make that toy subway of yours look a little less silly.


Nope.  You made a pretty clear reference to all of the golf courses.  Dense development further reduces green space (ie Lawns and shrubbery).


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are projecting on me your preferred stereotype. We had checks and balances within the political system and amongst the parties themselves. The extremist back in the day were neutralized, not so much anymore. When Sarah Palin opened her mouth on a national stage (and began attracting believers) things started going sideways.
> I agree with many, if not most, of what traditional conservatives ‘say’ they are about. The reality often doesn’t always resemble the talk. The “trump style Republicans” and their base aren’t preaching policy to disagree with they are pushing their aggrieved feelings.
> Policy? What policy?
> As the right pulls further away they look back thinking it’s an equal split. We now have American political pundits siding with Putin, think about that.


Oh please...with every step you are showing your partisanship more clearly.  I agree the right has moved (I'm no Trump fan).  The left has moved as well from the days where Bill Clinton joined the railing against welfare moms and illegal immigrants.  Then there's all the PC stuff and diversity stuff and Bernie Bro economics (where Bernie is even considered, among some on this forum, too tame in comparison to Reich, AOC and/or Elizabeth Warren).  It's not just the right that's moved...the left very clearly has and I'd argue even more substantially (when they moved into outright COVID hysteria and punishing the kids).  

The biggest difference is that the right used to take it and cloth themselves to be softer (e.g. "a thousand points of light", "compassionate conservativity", gentlemanly Mitt (who still got bashed as evil) and Mavericky McCain).  With Trump, they voted for someone who wouldn't just let the left and media walk away with it (and at the same time claim that they were being "nonpartisan") without fighting back.   That part is here to stay (but hopefully they can get someone saner than Trump).


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Nope.  You made a pretty clear reference to all of the golf courses.  Dense development further reduces green space (ie Lawns and shrubbery).


Golf courses are the least environmental example of green space you could pick.  

There is nothing environmental about pouring pesticides, herbicides, and water on 100 acres of grass for the benefit of a very small number of golfers.  You have what, 72 people using it at a time?  For 100+ acres that you killed with the pesticides?

Rip it out and put in 100 acres of sports fields.  You’d serve more than ten times as many people.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Oh please...with every step you are showing your partisanship more clearly.  I agree the right has moved (I'm no Trump fan).  The left has moved as well from the days where Bill Clinton joined the railing against welfare moms and illegal immigrants.  Then there's all the PC stuff and diversity stuff and Bernie Bro economics (where Bernie is even considered, among some on this forum, too tame in comparison to Reich, AOC and/or Elizabeth Warren).  It's not just the right that's moved...the left very clearly has and I'd argue even more substantially (when they moved into outright COVID hysteria and punishing the kids).
> 
> The biggest difference is that the right used to take it and cloth themselves to be softer (e.g. "a thousand points of light", "compassionate conservativity", gentlemanly Mitt (who still got bashed as evil) and Mavericky McCain).  With Trump, they voted for someone who wouldn't just let the left and media walk away with it (and at the same time claim that they were being "nonpartisan") without fighting back.   That part is here to stay (but hopefully they can get someone saner than Trump).


Slick Willie wanted to get things done so he acquiesced to some of Newts demands. Hence the pact. The whole welfare queen fantasy that derived  from Reagan was bs to scare white suburbanites into voting for tax breaks for the wealthy . . . like always.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Golf courses are the least environmental example of green space you could pick.
> 
> There is nothing environmental about pouring pesticides, herbicides, and water on 100 acres of grass for the benefit of a very small number of golfers.  You have what, 72 people using it at a time?  For 100+ acres that you killed with the pesticides?
> 
> Rip it out and put in 100 acres of sports fields.  You’d serve more than ten times as many people.


Again, something is important to everyone, including a nice walk ruined.  For you, it's traveling to club soccer games, tournaments, masks and having children.  For someone else, it's golf.  You can't do this by veto.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Slick Willie wanted to get things done so he acquiesced to some of Newts demands. Hence the pact. The whole welfare queen fantasy that derived  from Reagan was bs to scare white suburbanites into voting for tax breaks for the wealthy . . . like always.


Grain of truth but your partisanship is showing again Mr Moderate.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Grain of truth but your partisanship is showing again Mr Moderate.


Not moderate, lean left, would consider myself a conservative Democrat (that use to be a thing). 

Here is an example of what I “disagree with” and where it is going: https://www.businessinsider.com/mtg-claims-biden-backing-ukraine-because-has-hunter-dirt-2022-1


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not moderate, lean left, would consider myself a conservative Democrat (that use to be a thing).
> 
> Here is an example of what I “disagree with” and where it is going: https://www.businessinsider.com/mtg-claims-biden-backing-ukraine-because-has-hunter-dirt-2022-1


So a Machin/Sinema supporter?  I'd be shocked but somehow I just don't think so.  I'd guess maybe a Moynihan D but even that's a stretch.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Golf courses are the least environmental example of green space you could pick.
> 
> There is nothing environmental about pouring pesticides, herbicides, and water on 100 acres of grass for the benefit of a very small number of golfers.  You have what, 72 people using it at a time?  For 100+ acres that you killed with the pesticides?
> 
> Rip it out and put in 100 acres of sports fields.  You’d serve more than ten times as many people.


Your recommendation was to rip them out and build housing on them.

just like your recommendation to do away with HS sports because not everyone can make the team.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Oh please...with every step you are showing your partisanship more clearly. I agree the right has moved (I'm no Trump fan). The left has moved as well from the days where Bill Clinton joined the railing against welfare moms and illegal immigrants.


Pew does research on this.

They look at major political issues over the past couple of decades.

_The rise of ideological uniformity has been much more pronounced among those who are the most politically active. Today, almost four-in-ten (38%) politically engaged Democrats are consistent liberals, up from just 8% in 1994. The change among Republicans since then appears less dramatic – 33% express consistently conservative views, up from 23% in the midst of the 1994 “Republican Revolution.”_


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Your recommendation was to rip them out and build housing on them.
> 
> just like your recommendation to do away with HS sports because not everyone can make the team.


I am fully capable of expressing my own opinion, thanks.

Housing:
My first preference is to rezone existing areas for higher density.   I point out golf courses when people make BS arguments like “there is no land”.

High School Sports:
Cancel varsity because some kids can’t make the team?  Not what I said either.  I said create IM programs with equal field access.  Skilled athletes are no more and no less important than any other student, and resource allocation should reflect that.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Pantophobia?  I had to look that one up.
> 
> I myself have a fear of misplaced apostrophes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't fear the apostrophe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grammarguide.copydesk.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's more like a distaste than a fear.


I'll lead with this to reduce your fear/distaste level - "Charlie Brown's" should have been Charlie Browns. I appreciate the correction.



espola said:


> Pantophobia?  I had to look that one up.


I'm not sure I can associate with someone old enough to have watched Peanuts growing up who didn't know this was Lucy's diagnosis for Charlie Brown. 



espola said:


> And what is missing from the transparency about gain of function research?











						The time for transparency about COVID-19 origins is now | Opinion
					

This has been a good week for transparency—and a bad week for Dr. Anthony Fauci.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I am fully capable of expressing my own opinion, thanks.
> 
> Housing:
> My first preference is to rezone existing areas for higher density.   I point out golf courses when people make BS arguments like “there is no land”.
> 
> High School Sports:
> Cancel varsity because some kids can’t make the team?  Not what I said either.  I said create IM programs with equal field access.  Skilled athletes are no more and no less important than any other student, and resource allocation should reflect that.


Always nice to change your stance or slightly alter what you said so it doesn’t sound so contrary.

maybe stick to how we are going to mandate our way out of the Covid pandemic…..


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I am fully capable of expressing my own opinion, thanks.
> 
> Housing:
> My first preference is to rezone existing areas for higher density.   I point out golf courses when people make BS arguments like “there is no land”.
> 
> High School Sports:
> Cancel varsity because some kids can’t make the team?  Not what I said either.  I said create IM programs with equal field access.  Skilled athletes are no more and no less important than any other student, and resource allocation should reflect that.


Wait weren't you just blaming the Los Angeles poor performance despite its mandates on the "Los Angeles variant" and high density housing?

I'll take this as an optimistic ray of sunshine that you actually believe the pandemic is ending and therefore we should no longer (cold/flu/rsv/noro notwithstanding) be concerned about silly things like high density housing and masking?

Did it take a climate change conversation to actually turn a corner (I'll take it!)?


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Wait weren't you just blaming the Los Angeles poor performance despite its mandates on the "Los Angeles variant" and high density housing?
> 
> I'll take this as an optimistic ray of sunshine that you actually believe the pandemic is ending and therefore we should no longer (cold/flu/rsv/noro notwithstanding) be concerned about silly things like high density housing and masking?
> 
> Did it take a climate change conversation to actually turn a corner (I'll take it!)?


p.s. in the end it appears that there is something just different in the areas that line the pacific from Vancouver to Monterrey.  I'm open to the idea that it's behavioral or density but then it doesn't explain some areas like what Marin just did, why Oakland isn't exempt, and Los Angeles (which mandated harder than anyone on the west coast..."Los Angeles variant" notwithstanding).

I'm beginning to settle on the weather patterns along the pacific northwest.  The weather in the Bay Area is generally nice all year.  Martha's Vineyard and Vermont are both highly vaxxed and got a substantial bump despite their generally more cautious behavior and lower density.  Los Angeles, by contrast, has a summer where the heat drives people indoors and aircon is running, and a winter which is generally limited to a month from late December to late January, and not surprisingly gets these summer surges that look like the south but aren't as bad and a winter surge that breaks when the days start to turn longer and warmer and its sixty outside in winter again.









						Every State's COVID Numbers in Context, Jan 2022
					

The positives are sky high but we can find encouragement that the severity of COVID is decreasing




					polimath.substack.com


----------



## Grace T.

The case against masks in schools....the entire mask debate would have gone better for the promaskers if they hadn't been out of step with Europe and insisted that even 2 year olds had to be masked.









						The Case Against Masks at School
					

Districts should rethink imposing on millions of children an intervention that provides little discernible benefit.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wait weren't you just blaming the Los Angeles poor performance despite its mandates on the "Los Angeles variant" and high density housing?
> 
> I'll take this as an optimistic ray of sunshine that you actually believe the pandemic is ending and therefore we should no longer (cold/flu/rsv/noro notwithstanding) be concerned about silly things like high density housing and masking?
> 
> Did it take a climate change conversation to actually turn a corner (I'll take it!)?


You don’t think there was a link between LA’s substandard housing and their covid problems?  Given your views on in-home transmission, it seems an obvious conclusion.

Agree the pandemic phase is ending, or at least it looks like it.  

That doesn’t mean I think we can ignore housing.  I still think it is pretty crappy to expect others to live with 3 families in one apartment so they can mow our lawns and make our lattes.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> California needs to up its water storage. The last major water projects in the state were in the 60s. Since that time the population has more than doubled.


Great idea!  Who's going to give us their water?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You don’t think there was a link between LA’s substandard housing and their covid problems?  Given your views on in-home transmission, it seems an obvious conclusion.
> 
> Agree the pandemic phase is ending, or at least it looks like it.
> 
> That doesn’t mean I think we can ignore housing.  I still think it is pretty crappy to expect others to live with 3 families in one apartment so they can mow our lawns and make our lattes.


Yet you support high density housing to end climate change?  How do you reconcile?

p.s. yes I think there's a link but the outbreaks in LA occurred in zips as well which weren't just substandard housing including in areas into the OC and San Bernardino and Riverside counties so it doesn't explain all of the story.  Neither does it explain why Oakland despite having similar problems wasn't as complete of a meltdown as Los Angeles.


----------



## Grace T.

So much for the narrative that there's no cost to masking....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486449721325408256


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> So a Machin/Sinema supporter?  I'd be shocked but somehow I just don't think so.  I'd guess maybe a Moynihan D but even that's a stretch.


I was an independent until Palin started talking.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I was an independent until Palin started talking.


You ducked the question.  How you feel about Manchin/Sinema?


----------



## Desert Hound

Off topic here. But worth the look at the photos of this underground bunker.









						Behold the deeply unsettling creep factor of this "luxury bunker" in Las Vegas that's located 26 feet below ground but is made to look as if it's outside
					

There's not any better way to describe this than "really, really weird." Okay, maybe "spine-tingling."




					notthebee.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yet you support high density housing to end climate change?  How do you reconcile?
> 
> p.s. yes I think there's a link but the outbreaks in LA occurred in zips as well which weren't just substandard housing including in areas into the OC and San Bernardino and Riverside counties so it doesn't explain all of the story.  Neither does it explain why Oakland despite having similar problems wasn't as complete of a meltdown as Los Angeles.


Nothing to reconcile, really.  It only sounds like a conflict because you’re using one word, density, for two completely different concepts.  

Does density mean homes per square mile?  Or does density mean people per home?  They are not the same thing at all.

The climate problem is too few homes per square mile, causing longer commutes as people drive further to find housing.

The covid problem is too many people per home, causing more in home transmission.

Both are consequences of too few homes.  One problem is too few homes per square mile, and the other problem is too few homes per million people.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Off topic here. But worth the look at the photos of this underground bunker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Behold the deeply unsettling creep factor of this "luxury bunker" in Las Vegas that's located 26 feet below ground but is made to look as if it's outside
> 
> 
> There's not any better way to describe this than "really, really weird." Okay, maybe "spine-tingling."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notthebee.com


That's two minutes of my life that I will never get back.  The stripper pole is a nice touch.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> So much for the narrative that there's no cost to masking....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486449721325408256


Pro children maskers:  Yeah, but its only a delay, so it's temporary, not permanent.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nothing to reconcile, really.  It only sounds like a conflict because you’re using one word, density, for two completely different concepts.
> 
> Does density mean homes per square mile?  Or does density mean people per home?  They are not the same thing at all.
> 
> The climate problem is too few homes per square mile, causing longer commutes as people drive further to find housing.
> 
> The covid problem is too many people per home, causing more in home transmission.
> 
> Both are consequences of too few homes.  One problem is too few homes per square mile, and the other problem is too few homes per million people.


Ah I see.  That's where the disconnect is.  First when activists talk about housing density it's not just the commute they are talking about.  They want the homes to be smaller because of the heating/aircon issues and no lawns (because of the fertilizer/maintenance issues).

As to the COVID problem, you still have an issue.  It's not just the apartment rooms but also the shared plumbling, vents, sewage, elevators, common spaces, laundry rooms and garages of shared higher density living situations...the data on that early on out of China was quite clear, where because of the one child policy and the older people live out in rural villages you didn't have people crammed into the apartments (but apartments crammed into buildings).  Further, you have a building issue as concrete and other building materials also contribute to global warming....you are now building more housing for the poor to break them up in different apartments instead of cramming them into one apartment which is the opposite direction you want to go.

The two problems you articulate (few homes per square mile, and two few homes per million people) are actually more linked than you want to think (probably because you don't want to see the implication).  A review of Soviet housing (and their resulting horrible prescription) is illustrative.  And if you think Americans are going to give up their single family homes for the Kruskayas, you're crazy....not going to happen in the absence of the Bolivaran revolution.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Ah I see.  That's where the disconnect is.  First when activists talk about housing density it's not just the commute they are talking about.  They want the homes to be smaller because of the heating/aircon issues and no lawns (because of the fertilizer/maintenance issues).
> 
> As to the COVID problem, you still have an issue.  It's not just the apartment rooms but also the shared plumbling, vents, sewage, elevators, common spaces, laundry rooms and garages of shared higher density living situations...the data on that early on out of China was quite clear, where because of the one child policy and the older people live out in rural villages you didn't have people crammed into the apartments (but apartments crammed into buildings).  Further, you have a building issue as concrete and other building materials also contribute to global warming....you are now building more housing for the poor to break them up in different apartments instead of cramming them into one apartment which is the opposite direction you want to go.
> 
> The two problems you articulate (few homes per square mile, and two few homes per million people) are actually more linked than you want to think (probably because you don't want to see the implication).  A review of Soviet housing (and their resulting horrible prescription) is illustrative.  And if you think Americans are going to give up their single family homes for the Kruskayas, you're crazy....not going to happen in the absence of the Bolivaran revolution.


p.s. I'd venture to say that people will be more reluctant in the future (except for maybe SINKs and people who otherwise can't afford it) to use dense housing because of what's happened in the pandemic.  We CERTAINLY have seen that effect in Europe...and here my kid for a while trained with another kid who rode out the pandemic in a beach house (what's not to like...zoom work in pajamas, ocean views, big house with fast wifi and each of the kids has a room, one of the few people that was actually allowed to use the beach, they even did a BBQ beachside....heck if I had that layout I doubt we would have had to do the stint in Utah)....the issue being if evil goalie is right and coronavirus resurges sometime in the future into a monster variant, or if we get another bad flu epidemic for which we are overdo anyways, or we get some new "Contagion" type style bug, people are going to be reluctant to risk lockdown with children or a spouse in high density housing.    The only way you accomplish that is by force or subtle coercion (by making nondense housing more expensive), but in the later case you are essentially making people poorer which isn't exactly going to win you over friends and influence people (as November 2022 is beginning to shape up); hence we are back again to the Bolivarian revolution.

p.s. our initial plan for the pandemic by coinkidink had been to shelter at my folks beach house.  However, a. it wasn't right on the water but across the street from the water, b. didn't have a big back yard which would have made the situation actually a bit worse for us, and c. got caught up in the eviction moratorium which created another mess because my parents relied on that rental income and couldn't even forgo it to give the kids a pleasant lockdown.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ah I see.  That's where the disconnect is.  First when activists talk about housing density it's not just the commute they are talking about.  They want the homes to be smaller because of the heating/aircon issues and no lawns (because of the fertilizer/maintenance issues).
> 
> As to the COVID problem, you still have an issue.  It's not just the apartment rooms but also the shared plumbling, vents, sewage, elevators, common spaces, laundry rooms and garages of shared higher density living situations...the data on that early on out of China was quite clear, where because of the one child policy and the older people live out in rural villages you didn't have people crammed into the apartments (but apartments crammed into buildings).  Further, you have a building issue as concrete and other building materials also contribute to global warming....you are now building more housing for the poor to break them up in different apartments instead of cramming them into one apartment which is the opposite direction you want to go.
> 
> The two problems you articulate (few homes per square mile, and two few homes per million people) are actually more linked than you want to think (probably because you don't want to see the implication).  A review of Soviet housing (and their resulting horrible prescription) is illustrative.  And if you think Americans are going to give up their single family homes for the Kruskayas, you're crazy....not going to happen in the absence of the Bolivaran revolution.


Not all housing activists agree that homes should be smaller, or rely on shared indoor space.   I am in favor of more square feet, not less.  

I don’t see the argument that elevators are a major respiratory disease factor.  The 12 hours in the house with 9 other people are more important than the 15 seconds in the elevator with 3 people.

Yes, there is a climate cost to construction.  But it is considerably smaller than the climate cost from transportation when you prohibit construction.


----------



## NorCalDad

As I watched the JRE episode with Jordan Peterson, I finally figured out who he reminds me of.  He's a friggin modern day Cliff Clavin, "Hey Normy, have you heard about Carl Jung's Buffalo Theory".  Anyway,  not the reason I'm posting this.  I then realized this entire thread is a bunch of Cliff Clavins.  I now read all the posts in his voice.  Give it a shot.  Feel free interjecting "Hey Normy" where it makes sense.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> As I watched the JRE episode with Jordan Peterson, I finally figured out who he reminds me of.  He's a friggin modern day Cliff Clavin, "Hey Normy, have you heard about Carl Jung's Buffalo Theory".  Anyway,  not the reason I'm posting this.  I then realized this entire thread is a bunch of Cliff Clavins.  I now read all the posts in his voice.  Give it a shot.  Feel free interjecting "Hey Normy" where it makes sense.


Nope.  Jordan Peterson is actually one of the great philosophers of our age.  He's become increasingly erratic since he went off the drugs, and I readily concede can go way into outer space on some his rants, but he explains (without realizing) even in that pod cast why that is...much like the blue haired creatives, the out of the box thinkers go way out there and not everything they produce is gold....but Peterson (even if he is somewhat diminished by what he's undergone) is truly one of the great thinkers of our age.  And I say this as someone who is LGBTQ.  Kiddo was enthralled with his psych lecture and listened it on the train journey all through Spain a few years ago.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Nope.  Jordan Peterson is actually one of the great philosophers of our age.  He's become increasingly erratic since he went off the drugs, and I readily concede can go way into outer space on some his rants, but he explains (without realizing) even in that pod cast why that is...much like the blue haired creatives, the out of the box thinkers go way out there and not everything they produce is gold....but Peterson (even if he is somewhat diminished by what he's undergone) is truly one of the great thinkers of our age.  And I say this as someone who is LGBTQ.  Kiddo was enthralled with his psych lecture and listened it on the train journey all through Spain a few years ago.


Thanks Cliff!

Seriously though,  Joe corrected him within the first 10 minutes.  He speaks in absolutes...just like Cliff.  No thanks.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> That's two minutes of my life that I will never get back.


That is exactly what they designed the internet for. Or at least that is my theory.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Thanks Cliff!
> 
> Seriously though,  Joe corrected him within the first 10 minutes.  He speaks in absolutes...just like Cliff.  No thanks.


I agree he doesn't do nuance well, but most of the great philosophers don't.  Philosophy is a seer stone through which to look at the world...it gives you only one painting of it.   If you look at him in the philosophical context, it makes perfect sense.

p.s. cheers relentless mocks classism and lumps people of various classes into this one setting.  Clavin is a caricature of a lower class person who could never hope to rise to the station of an intellectual.  It contrast with Frasier who is a pompous and elitist windbag.  Yet, as Diane points out in her play on Frasier, they are all lost souls who wallow their sorrows and (from what the writer's clearly let us know) pathetic existences (whether a rich barmaid forced to be a barmaid or a washed out baseball player) in drink and fellowship.  The thing they all have in common is they are losers.

p.p.s. it's one of the reasons why Cheers stopped working once Diane left beyond the will they or won't they.  Kirstie Ali's character was just blatantly contemptuous (at least at first) of the bar residents.  The quiet part began to be said out loud and it didn't work.

p.p.p.s a better mocking of me would be Frasier.  Indeed, my two brothers were known as the "Crane boys" back in law school


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I agree he doesn't do nuance well, but most of the great philosophers don't.  Philosophy is a seer stone through which to look at the world...it gives you only one painting of it.   If you look at him in the philosophical context, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> p.s. cheers relentless mocks classism and lumps people of various classes into this one setting.  Clavin is a caricature of a lower class person who could never hope to rise to the station of an intellectual.  It contrast with Frasier who is a pompous and elitist windbag.  Yet, as Diane points out in her play on Frasier, they are all lost souls who wallow their sorrows and (from what the writer's clearly let us know) pathetic existences (whether a rich barmaid forced to be a barmaid or a washed out baseball player) in drink and fellowship.  The thing they all have in common is they are losers.
> 
> p.p.s. it's one of the reasons why Cheers stopped working once Diane left beyond the will they or won't they.  Kirstie Ali's character was just blatantly contemptuous (at least at first) of the bar residents.  The quiet part began to be said out loud and it didn't work.
> 
> p.p.p.s a better mocking of me would be Frasier.  Indeed, my two brothers were known as the "Crane boys" back in law school


Cliff did get pretty close to winning Jeopardy though.  The Buffalo Theory is pretty solid.

I mean the issue is this, Jordan goes on to say "7 million kids a year die from particulate matter indoors".  He said this as if it was set in stone.  He's also incredibly believable.  Joe had an eyebrow raised most of the interview -- something I don't think many pick up on.  Joe is definitely skeptical of many of his guests.  In some ways he mocks people like Alex Jones, etc.  But anyway,  Peterson sounds smart, but I just don't think I'd put him on a pedestal like you do.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12762





http://imgur.com/a/eanVTPb


----------



## Soccermaverick

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/eanVTPb





http://imgur.com/a/dbY0AEu


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/EsxzMrE


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/wKy449U


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> As I watched the JRE episode with Jordan Peterson, I finally figured out who he reminds me of.  He's a friggin modern day Cliff Clavin, "Hey Normy, have you heard about Carl Jung's Buffalo Theory".  Anyway,  not the reason I'm posting this.  I then realized this entire thread is a bunch of Cliff Clavins.  I now read all the posts in his voice.  Give it a shot.  Feel free interjecting "Hey Normy" where it makes sense.


This is how you spend your time... Brilliant!


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Cliff did get pretty close to winning Jeopardy though.  The Buffalo Theory is pretty solid.
> 
> I mean the issue is this, Jordan goes on to say "7 million kids a year die from particulate matter indoors".  He said this as if it was set in stone.  He's also incredibly believable.  Joe had an eyebrow raised most of the interview -- something I don't think many pick up on.  Joe is definitely skeptical of many of his guests.  In some ways he mocks people like Alex Jones, etc.  But anyway,  Peterson sounds smart, but I just don't think I'd put him on a pedestal like you do.


I'd only do so for the limited purposes as a philosopher.  As a political activist he's not so great (and he even tells Ben Shapiro as much in their one on one).  And he has been diminished by what he went through.  Rogan is not a deep philosopher.  He's more meat and potatoes.  He is Peterson's opposite and it's a credit to Rogan that he didn't spend the entire time rolling his eyes.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You ducked the question.  How you feel about Manchin/Sinema?


Apparently they are representing their constituents.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Apparently they are representing their constituents.


still ducking


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> This is how you spend your time... Brilliant!


And you spend it making senseless comments on a southern california soccer internet message board...Brilliant! Amazing! Outstanding!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Apparently they are representing their constituents.


Not Sinema.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> And you spend it making senseless comments on a southern california soccer internet message board...Brilliant! Amazing! Outstanding!


They always do what they accuse others of doing...funny how that works.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> They always do what they accuse others of doing...funny how that works.


Keep it coming.  You're like a mini Jordan Peterson with your insightful and useful comments.  Perhaps you too are one of the great thinkers of our time.  Let it out, don't block us from hearing all your great thoughts and ideas.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Great idea!  Who's going to give us their water?


God.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Keep it coming.  You're like a mini Jordan Peterson with your insightful and useful comments.  Perhaps you too are one of the great thinkers of our time.  Let it out, don't block us from hearing all your great thoughts and ideas.


Take a breath then a walk... it's nice in Cali today.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> Take a breath then a walk... it's nice in Cali today.


Agreed.  It's amazing out.  Already got my walk in.  About to do the soccer practice drop-off routine -- then going to hit the trails.  Too bad you and Crush live in SoCal otherwise I'd ask you to join.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> I was an independent until Palin started talking.


...that makes you weak minded then.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Agreed.  It's amazing out.  Already got my walk in.  About to do the soccer practice drop-off routine -- then going to hit the trails.  Too bad you and Crush live in SoCal otherwise I'd ask you to join.


...game night for me, enjoy.


----------



## Grace T.

Higher levels of myocarditis in boys than thought....









						An Israeli study finds a slightly higher-than-expected rate of heart problems in vaccinated boys.
					

Myocarditis, or inflammation of the heart muscle, occurred in 1 of 12,361 boys aged 12 to 15 within a week of receiving a second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, researchers found.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> still ducking


They aren’t a/the problem.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> They aren’t a/the problem.


Closer but still ducking.  You like em (sounds like you only tolerate them)?


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> Agreed.  It's amazing out.  Already got my walk in.  About to do the soccer practice drop-off routine -- then going to hit the trails.  Too bad you and Crush live in SoCal otherwise I'd ask you to join.


We all need to meet up after this is all over for some beers, that's for sure.  Socal weather has been amazing NorCalDad.  This was the other day with me and the sun.  I think Met61 took the 30 day challenge and just got back?  BTW, crush got busted.  60 day suspension.


----------



## Ellejustus

Joe & Espola in da cage?


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/bBP4Dcr


----------



## Ellejustus

Take this meme.....


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/bBP4Dcr


EJ will miss you Mavs.  I have to leave for 30 day challenge.  Life coach say's this place is low energy and toxic for my soul and it's time to leave and heal and take care of myself for once.  The last woman to challenge with a 30 day deal was my wife.  No meat for 30 days.  I told her ok but I'm eating the biggest steak after.  Guess what dude?  Never went back for the steak.  I won;t say never but I'm out for 30 days.  I go to FA man.  You have lost your mind Mavs.   GG is nuts as well. Are you two the same?  Are you Espola as well?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Closer but still ducking.  You like em (sounds like you only tolerate them)?


I am not enamored with any politician.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I am not enamored with any politician.


None?  Even I can pick out a couple that if not enamored with or give them a 100% buy I can at least give a modicum of support.  Wow what a sad state of affairs things must be if everyone is garbage to you.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/8el1Jj5


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Higher levels of myocarditis in boys than thought....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Israeli study finds a slightly higher-than-expected rate of heart problems in vaccinated boys.
> 
> 
> Myocarditis, or inflammation of the heart muscle, occurred in 1 of 12,361 boys aged 12 to 15 within a week of receiving a second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, researchers found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


A lot of work to be done in this area with hopefully more studies to come.  Moderna has a higher incidence.  Canada (and others) has been smart about spacing out 1st and 2nd dose, which likely helps in mitigating risk of myocarditis.  There is risk of myocarditis with natural infection but incidences have been rather low and mild , just like every year with viral infections.  Something about MRNA that makes this a bit different - it'swhy studies are needed and parents need to carefully assess risk/benefit. 

IF you want to vaccinate your U18 boy child, highly recommend spacing out the doses - forget to come back for the second appt.... Likely no need for boosters, especially for college aged kids.  Ramping antibodies for the sake of ramping up is rather foolish.   it's as if some people have forgotten about the other, more important aspects of our immune system.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Not Sinema.


I guess she is. Have you looked at her poll numbers for the STATE of AZ? 

Or does she only represent democrats in her state?


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> A lot of work to be done in this area with hopefully more studies to come. Moderna has a higher incidence. Canada (and others) has been smart about spacing out 1st and 2nd dose, which likely helps in mitigating risk of myocarditis.


This is why you have LONG TERM studies. 

Some here have argued the vaxxes have been studied and/or totally safe. 

The further we go, we keep finding stuff. 

We are seeing myocarditis in young boys/men. There is no good reason to mandate a vaxx which has that possible side affect for a virus that has no risk to them.


----------



## Ellejustus

Desert Hound said:


> This is why you have LONG TERM studies.
> 
> Some here have argued the vaxxes have been studied and/or totally safe.
> 
> The further we go, we keep finding stuff.
> 
> We are seeing myocarditis in young boys/men. There is no good reason to mandate a vaxx which has that possible side affect for a virus that has no risk to them.


I was talking to pal yesterday Hound and he is double jabbed and booster.  Great guy with a heart of gold.  He always obeyed his parents when I knew him a s teenager and was taught to obey authorities.  He knows deep down and has told me behind close doors that he thinks this is a big scam now. I asked why take all the shots and he said it's because he wants things back to what it was and he thought they were being honest.  BTW, his name is not Norm, but he wants things normal again.  He feels awful about my work situation and how my dd can't play in college.  I told him this and straight up to his face and stared directly in his eyes and with love & kindness I told him, "as long as comply to the shots and all the liars, this is YOUR new normal bro, because You agreed to their demands.  It's as simple is as simple is.  I'm shocked bro.  This guy has a Masters in Biology.  No street smart class for him because he was living in a bubble with his mommy and daddy.  Now reality is hitting him hard because he turn his back on the truth because of fear.  Yup, fear of losing his normal life, which he lost already.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> None?  Even I can pick out a couple that if not enamored with or give them a 100% buy I can at least give a modicum of support.  Wow what a sad state of affairs things must be if everyone is garbage to you.


Why always with the all or nothing? I try to find some redeeming quality in everyone.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> This is why you have LONG TERM studies.
> 
> Some here have argued the vaxxes have been studied and/or totally safe.
> 
> The further we go, we keep finding stuff.
> 
> We are seeing myocarditis in young boys/men. There is no good reason to mandate a vaxx which has that possible side affect for a virus that has no risk to them.


Pfizer/Moderna will continue to track PH III participants for at least two more years.  The bottom line is the vaccines were rushed to market, accelerating the normal process - for very good reasons.  No one is suprised there are gaps in capability and blind spots in trials.  

Moderna specifically is on the record  early  saying their trials will not demonstrate prevention of hospitalization because the size and duration of the trial would  have needed to be vastly increased to collect the necessary data.  They designed their study just like pfizer and jj - to detect a relative risk reduction of at least 30% in participants developing lab-confirmed covid-19, consistent with FDA and international guidance.  They basically designed covid vaccines after flu vaccines, which are better at preventing severe disease better than mild disease.   The science is forever evolving.  

Everything else spewing from the mouth of talking heads is theater ---just like masking.  NOW the hand is being revealed as to how masking should be logically implemented based on science.  The data has always been there, it's always been on the fine print when you buy surgical masks.  Remember in CA when they told people masks wouldn't work during fires?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I guess she is. Have you looked at her poll numbers for the STATE of AZ?
> 
> Or does she only represent democrats in her state?


The fringes of both parties think that a majority of primary voters counts as a mandate.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> A lot of work to be done in this area with hopefully more studies to come.  Moderna has a higher incidence.  Canada (and others) has been smart about spacing out 1st and 2nd dose, which likely helps in mitigating risk of myocarditis.  There is risk of myocarditis with natural infection but incidences have been rather low and mild , just like every year with viral infections.  Something about MRNA that makes this a bit different - it'swhy studies are needed and parents need to carefully assess risk/benefit.
> 
> IF you want to vaccinate your U18 boy child, highly recommend spacing out the doses - forget to come back for the second appt.... Likely no need for boosters, especially for college aged kids.  Ramping antibodies for the sake of ramping up is rather foolish.   it's as if some people have forgotten about the other, more important aspects of our immune system.


Thank you Dr. Cliff Clavin.  I have this soreness in my knee, what are your thoughts on that?  Would love to get your prognosis.


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> Thank you Dr. Cliff Clavin.  I have this soreness in my knee, what are your thoughts on that?  Would love to get your prognosis.


You made me laugh NoCal.  That was great, thanks   I guess we all have to be our own Docs now.  Ain't no one to trust these days.  I know two well respected Doctors.  Like, real doctors with degrees bro.  One says don't take the shot mixed with shit from Gates and Dr. Fraud and the other one say's it will save you from the hospital. How the hell am I supposed figure this all out dude?  Joe is protecting Ukraine but not us?  This is insane!!!   WTF is going on in Ukraine bro?  100,000 Russians at the boarder.  Is Vlad finally going to take of advantage of Joe?  This takes ground hog day to another level.  I have friend whose son might have to go protect Hunter & Joe's dealings from the past in the Ukraine.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Thank you Dr. Cliff Clavin.  I have this soreness in my knee, what are your thoughts on that?  Would love to get your prognosis.


Experts have been wrong or late more than a few times on COVID. The advice given was really a rather small deviation from the recommendation. How many times does #science have to change on COVID before you realize it may be wise to do your research and think for yourself on this?

Knee pain has been around for a long. You can probably trust the experts but it wouldn't hurt to do a little research. Be careful with that knee though if you ever have to jump off your horse. It's high.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Experts have been wrong or late more than a few times on COVID. The advice given was really a rather small deviation from the recommendation. How many times does #science have to change on COVID before you realize it may be wise to do your research and think for yourself on this?
> 
> Knee pain has been around for a long. You can probably trust the experts but it wouldn't hurt to do a little research. Be careful with that knee though if you ever have to jump off your horse. It's high.


Actually no joke on the orthopedic surgeons.  They're a little over eager to use the knife.   I always get a second opinion with those guys.


----------



## NorCalDad

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486726062855708690


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Experts have been wrong or late more than a few times on COVID. The advice given was really a rather small deviation from the recommendation. How many times does #science have to change on COVID before you realize it may be wise to do your research and think for yourself on this?
> 
> Knee pain has been around for a long. You can probably trust the experts but it wouldn't hurt to do a little research. Be careful with that knee though if you ever have to jump off your horse. It's high.


Back Doctors are gnarly too.  I had a quack Doc out in Riverside years ago that was trying to convince me to do disk replacement surgery on L5 and L4.  He took some MRI thing and then brought me into his fear office.  First thing he said was, "Dam sir, were you in a car accident?"  I said, "no."  I just have the most insane lower back pain ever and why?  I couldnt walk at times and would lay in bed for days.  He gave me some pills for the pain and those were amazing.  Like real amazing and got me out of bed and happy all in one  Anyway, dude got me hooked for a year or so and then told me no more pills unless I get surgery. He said the pills are just to get you "ready" for anything I tell you do. I took a hard look at this dude and asked for references. I got 5. I met two and both felt better after the new fusions. However, they were both hooked on Morphine and Opioids and never quit that shit. I told Doc, "no" on the $100,000 back surgery and he told me no more pills. The dude was a liar and got arrested later for putting fake screws in peoples back. They started to rust on a few of his patients and he went to jail or lost his licensee or both. I dodged a witch doctor. Be careful you guys. Doc is not always on your side


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486726062855708690


Any #science in 2 shots + having had Covid?


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Thank you Dr. Cliff Clavin.  I have this soreness in my knee, what are your thoughts on that?  Would love to get your prognosis.


Interesting response - with little value add.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486726062855708690


What are you thoughts on this? Evolving science maybe.  Is it earth shattering that anyone over the age of 65 may require additional protection from a virus that's been hard to figure out.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Thank you Dr. Cliff Clavin.  *I have this soreness in my knee, what are your thoughts on that?  Would love to get your prognosis.*


A tuff guy like you will likely get by with a bit of Ranger candy and some water.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why always with the all or nothing? I try to find some redeeming quality in everyone.


So who you like?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486726062855708690





what-happened said:


> What are you thoughts on this? Evolving science maybe.  Is it earth shattering that anyone over the age of 65 may require additional protection from a virus that's been hard to figure out.


Or that for certain people (the very young) a first booster even may not be warranted....









						Why Are We Boosting Kids?
					

The CDC and the FDA have ignored other countries’ caution, the WHO’s chief scientist, leading American experts, and their own data.




					bariweiss.substack.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Or that for certain people (the very young) a first booster even may not be warranted....


It isn't warranted. 

860k dead. 

Under 17 has had 748 deaths since the beginning of this. 

Roughly 70 million people make up that age range. 

The actual data shows there is no risk to this age group.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't warranted.
> 
> 860k dead.
> 
> Under 17 has had 748 deaths since the beginning of this.
> 
> Roughly 70 million people make up that age range.
> 
> The actual data shows there is no risk to this age group.


What you’re doing is repeating the same straw man every week:  Pretend the other side is primarily talking about deaths among those under 17, and disprove your own point.

Well done.  Hound’s left sock puppet has clearly demolished Hound’s right sock puppet.  Give yourself a high five.

If you want to say there is no need to vaccinate those under 17, then address the real issues: give us an argument based on hospitalizations and non-fatal long term effects.


----------



## Ellejustus

Those Mother Truckers!!!


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't warranted.
> 
> 860k dead.
> 
> Under 17 has had 748 deaths since the beginning of this.
> 
> Roughly 70 million people make up that age range.
> 
> The actual data shows there is no risk to this age group.


Sweden and norway are taking it a step further not even recommending the vaxx for non risk children.









						Sweden decides against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11
					

Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What you’re doing is repeating the same straw man every week:  Pretend the other side is primarily talking about deaths among those under 17, and disprove your own point.
> 
> Well done.  Hound’s left sock puppet has clearly demolished Hound’s right sock puppet.  Give yourself a high five.
> 
> If you want to say there is no need to vaccinate those under 17, then address the real issues: give us an argument based on hospitalizations and non-fatal long term effects.


The Norweigans and Swedes have already done that for us (at least for the 12 and under).


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't warranted.
> 
> 860k dead.
> 
> Under 17 has had 748 deaths since the beginning of this.
> 
> Roughly 70 million people make up that age range.
> 
> The actual data shows there is no risk to this age group.


748 != 0.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> Sweden and norway are taking it a step further not even recommending the vaxx for non risk children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden decides against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11
> 
> 
> Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


They love their kids.  We use children as pawns.  Send our boys to fight evil wars.  I will sit and wait for the real TRUTH to come out.  Mr. Bubble and Mr. Normal are holding us all back because they want to go back to the way things were.  WERE NOT GOING BACK.  That was all based on lies.  A new way to play is coming Grace T and all lying and cheating will be removed.  All Hospitals will close and new Wellness Centers will be open to help heal the souls of the planet.  This left brain right brain has caused all the division in our world.  Look at the same fools at the forum.  When lie and get caught, admit the lie and stop lying.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> A tuff guy like you will likely get by with a bit of Ranger candy and some water.


I lied, I don't have soreness.  I just wanted to see if the armchair doctor in you had thoughts on it.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> 748 != 0.


Apparently you still have a hard time understanding risk. Which is why you and others have difficulty with cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Apparently you still have a hard time understanding risk. Which is why you and others have difficulty with cost/benefit analysis.


A true cost/benefit analysis would include the costs/risks of not being vaccinated as part of the calculation.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> So who you like?


Who do I like? Katie Porter seems to handle herself well. Faulkner was a good mayor. Scott Peters never pissed me off, neither did Loch David Crane nor Doc Sullivan (even though he has a soft spot for trump, tax breaks being his weakness).


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> A true cost/benefit analysis would include the costs/risks of not being vaccinated as part of the calculation.


Roughly 1600 people a year die falling down stairs.  They need to be removed from the earth!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> A true cost/benefit analysis would include the costs/risks of not being vaccinated as part of the calculation.


Agreed…as well as the side effects of receiving the vaccine a small but relevant #).


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> I lied, I don't have soreness.  I just wanted to see if the armchair doctor in you had thoughts on it.


good thing this was a no cost telehealth appt.  but you will be flagged.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Agreed…as well as the side effects of receiving the vaccine a small but relevant #).


Are you afraid of needles? I have this theory . . .


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> It isn't warranted.
> 
> 860k dead.
> 
> Under 17 has had 748 deaths since the beginning of this.
> 
> Roughly 70 million people make up that age range.
> 
> The actual data shows there is no risk to this age group.


In SD County 95% of the people that died are 50+, you would think that data would be useful for health policy, but alas no.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who do I like? Katie Porter seems to handle herself well. Faulkner was a good mayor. Scott Peters never pissed me off, neither did Loch David Crane nor Doc Sullivan (even though he has a soft spot for trump, tax breaks being his weakness).


I have a hard time giving Faulkner a thumps up as mayor considering the Ash Street debacle, but otherwise he wasn't a bad mayor.  He was better than Filner at least.


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> I lied, I don't have soreness.  I just wanted to see if the armchair doctor in you had thoughts on it.


I lied yesterday about my 30 day rehab.  Thanks for coming clean.  Were all going to do a lie here and there.  It's human nature.  White lie or a regular lie is still a lie and it's up to us as we each age to quit lying altogether and live in the light.  Liars only lie because they are afraid.  You can;t love and have fear at the same time.  Either you live in fear or love.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I have a hard time giving Faulkner a thumps up as mayor considering the Ash Street debacle, but otherwise he wasn't a bad mayor.  He was better than Filner at least.


It's Faulconer, and I voted for him in 2016 during the short period when I lived within the SD city limits.


----------



## Desert Hound

I will go first.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you afraid of needles? I have this theory . . .


No…but the ones they use to drain my knee are pretty intimidating.

I didn’t even feel the “vax” needles.


----------



## Ellejustus

HAPPENING NOW: 50,000 truckers and 1.4M people enroute to Canadian parliament.


----------



## Ellejustus

When the left loses Charlemagne... IT'S GAME OVER!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The Norweigans and Swedes have already done that for us (at least for the 12 and under).


I‘m not saying there is no argument to be made.  There is an argument to be made, and Hound isn't making it.

Instead, he just repeats the same fact and calls people stupid if they don't agree with his conclusion.

It's obnoxious and adds nothing to the discussion.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I‘m not saying there is no argument to be made.  There is an argument to be made, and Hound isn't making it.
> 
> Instead, he just repeats the same fact and calls people stupid if they don't agree with his conclusion.
> 
> It's obnoxious and adds nothing to the discussion.


Pot meat kettle


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I‘m not saying there is no argument to be made.  There is an argument to be made, and Hound isn't making it.
> 
> Instead, he just repeats the same fact and calls people stupid if they don't agree with his conclusion.
> 
> It's obnoxious and adds nothing to the discussion.


It is totally relevant. 

Some are saying the young should get vaxxed. They have no risk. 

Boys/young men have a myocarditis risk as well.

So having them or mandating them is not sound policy.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Sweden and norway are taking it a step further not even recommending the vaxx for non risk children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden decides against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11
> 
> 
> Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Add Denmark to that list…


----------



## soccersc

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Add Denmark to that list…


How long will those that believe in the "Science" finally give in and say they were wrong? Pride is getting in the way of doing the right thing for so many of the decision makers. Sad


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> It is totally relevant.
> 
> Some are saying the young should get vaxxed. They have no risk.
> 
> Boys/young men have a myocarditis risk as well.
> 
> So having them or mandating them is not sound policy.


Let me know when your risk analysis includes hospitalizations, community spread, and non-fatal long term effects.

As it stands, you are ignoring the claimed benefits of k-12 anti-covid policies, at the same time you accuse others of being bad at cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Pot meat kettle


Making a stew?


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> I lied, I don't have soreness.  I just wanted to see if the armchair doctor in you had thoughts on it.


Imagine spending time doing this...


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I‘m not saying there is no argument to be made.  There is an argument to be made, and Hound isn't making it.
> 
> Instead, he just repeats the same fact and calls people stupid if they don't agree with his conclusion.
> 
> It's obnoxious and adds nothing to the discussion.


Again...they always do what they accuse others of doing.


----------



## met61

soccersc said:


> How long will those that believe in the "Science" finally give in and say they were wrong? Pride is getting in the way of doing the right thing for so many of the decision makers. Sad


... it'll be awhile, if ever, they haven't even gotten to the race card yet


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Let me know when your risk analysis includes hospitalizations, community spread, and non-fatal long term effects.


Well we know the hospitalizations have not been an issue AT ALL.  Well documented. 

We also know that they do not spread much compared to adults. This has been known for a long time and documented. We have data from our schools, schools in Europe, etc. 

In terms of long term affects we don't know what they are for the vaxx either. What we do know is know that as a group the virus has to date not impacted them at all.

Your idea is well we dont know if there are long term affects of the vaxx for young people BUT we should give it to them because we dont know if the FEW who actually get sick will have long term covid affects. That isn't a rational / logical position.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Well we know the hospitalizations have not been an issue AT ALL.  Well documented.
> 
> We also know that they do not spread much compared to adults. This has been known for a long time and documented. We have data from our schools, schools in Europe, etc.
> 
> In terms of long term affects we don't know what they are for the vaxx either. What we do know is know that as a group the virus has to date not impacted them at all.
> 
> Your idea is well we dont know if there are long term affects of the vaxx for young people BUT we should give it to them because we dont know if the FEW who actually get sick will have long term covid affects. That isn't a rational / logical position.


There's the math too.  If everyone is pretty much guaranteed to get it that means everyone including kids have to undertake (in their case a small) risk of illness, hospitalization, long covid.  But by vaccinating you are adding another risk on top of the one folks are guaranteed to get.  Depending on how efficient the vaccines really are in stopping illness, it could be as much as a double risk we are putting the kids through.


----------



## Ellejustus

soccersc said:


> How long will those that believe in the "Science" finally give in and say they were wrong? Pride is getting in the way of doing the right thing for so many of the decision makers. Sad


It's not pride when their purposely lying to us on purpose.  Dad and the others are just trying to pro long their impending Karma that is coming for those who lie and cheat on purpose.  Look at all [D] retiring?  Look at all these, triple jabbed and double booster boys waving the white flag of surrender and saying, "I tested positive for Covid."  That's their way of eating crow and bowing out peacefully.  Some will go down to the very end and then beg for forgiveness.


----------



## watfly

Let's be perfectly honest here, "community spread" is a euphemism for "I'm afraid to get Covid".


----------



## Ellejustus

Thank God for the Mother Truckers.  I must say I am disappointed with Mr. Rich, Mr. Snob, Mr. Fence Sitter who just let others get fired and force kids to wear a mask..


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Well we know the hospitalizations have not been an issue AT ALL.  Well documented.
> 
> We also know that they do not spread much compared to adults. This has been known for a long time and documented. We have data from our schools, schools in Europe, etc.
> 
> In terms of long term affects we don't know what they are for the vaxx either. What we do know is know that as a group the virus has to date not impacted them at all.
> 
> *Your idea is *well we dont know if there are long term affects of the vaxx for young people BUT we should give it to them because we dont know if the FEW who actually get sick will have long term covid affects. That isn't a rational / logical position.


What right do you have to tell me what my argument is?


Desert Hound said:


> Well we know the hospitalizations have not been an issue AT ALL.  Well documented.
> 
> We also know that they do not spread much compared to adults. This has been known for a long time and documented. We have data from our schools, schools in Europe, etc.
> 
> In terms of long term affects we don't know what they are for the vaxx either. What we do know is know that as a group the virus has to date not impacted them at all.
> 
> Your idea is well we dont know if there are long term affects of the vaxx for young people BUT we should give it to them because we dont know if the FEW who actually get sick will have long term covid affects. That isn't a rational / logical position.


I do not need your “help” telling me what my idea is.

You have an Israeli study that puts myocarditis risk at one per 12,361.

The risk of death, by your numbers, is one per 93,500.  (it’s actually higher, since not all 70 million kids have gotten covid).

This is not, to my eye, the slam dunk you claim it is.  You are essentially comparing 93 short hospital stays against 12 deaths.  And you are concluding that the deaths are obviously the smaller issue.  

To me, it’s not obvious at all, in either direction.


----------



## blam

My kid got covid omicron, and I am fine.

I only got my first shot last July. Then developed such huge discomfort on my arm. It has gotten better but still feel it a bit.

Not sure if I should proceed with my 2nd dose. I don't want to reexperience that issue with my arm. Besides, by the time I am ready for it, this whole thing may be over.

Any advice?

I am leaning to just skipping this thing now that the highest risk member of my household who is out a lot have had covid and it did't impact me.

btw, not saying there is anything wrong with the vaccine. the nurse who gave that shot to me may have used a needle that is too long. may have hit my nerve etc. etc. and that is what is causing the soreness many many many months later. and yes, i have seen doctors for it and no one figured out why yet. and they prefer to treat it separately as a symtom rather than to tie it to the vaccine.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> To me, it’s not obvious at all, in either direction.


Why isn't it obvious that there isn't a benefit to a healthy child?  The data is overwhelming, so much that most develped countries are taking a completly different approach than we are, from dosing to masking, etc.  There are other, riskier things to the healthy U14  crowd than covid.  It appears to me that the hangup with most parents and vaccines are mandates.  CA is the leading nanny state.  Let parents make that choice, especially in light of other public health issues.

5-14 year olds are more likely to die of motor vehicle accidents (10x), suicide(6.5x), homicide (5x), and drug OD (1x).  Those rates go higher (except for moto vehicle accidents) for 15-24 yr olds.  

Omicron has changed the calculus for many things.  Strategies need to adjust as needed.  We are far removed from APR 2020.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are essentially comparing 93 short hospital stays against 12 deaths.  And you are concluding that the deaths are obviously the smaller issue.


Object here.  You know it's not just a hospital stay.  It involves a recuperation period for quite a long time when heavy athletics is not advised.  It's possible the person may not be able to participate in high end athletics (and we don't know if the various soccer and other sports problems are either tied to myocarditis in the virus or athletics).  It could also involve permanent heart injury or lead to other heart conditions years down the line.  For someone trotting out long COVID, you seem remarkable unconcerned by this.  

Yeah, you can argue that COVID virus carries the same risk but there's some evidence floating around that (particularly with moderna) the vaccine risk may be more substantial

And if transmission isn't stopped by the vaccine, you are also subjecting to them to two (instead of just 1 natural infection) risk events.

Side editorial here: as this continues to go on, you increasingly seem to be lashing out and/or losing your temper.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> My kid got covid omicron, and I am fine.
> 
> I only got my first shot last July. Then developed such huge discomfort on my arm. It has gotten better but still feel it a bit.
> 
> Not sure if I should proceed with my 2nd dose. I don't want to reexperience that issue with my arm. Besides, by the time I am ready for it, this whole thing may be over.
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> I am leaning to just skipping this thing now that the highest risk member of my household who is out a lot have had covid and it did't impact me.
> 
> btw, not saying there is anything wrong with the vaccine. the nurse who gave that shot to me may have used a needle that is too long. may have hit my nerve etc. etc. and that is what is causing the soreness many many many months later. and yes, i have seen doctors for it and no one figured out why yet. and they prefer to treat it separately as a symtom rather than to tie it to the vaccine.


You should talk to your doctor since the answer in part may depend on your risk profile and what the doctor thinks actually happened to your arm.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Add Denmark to that list…


Those damn Scandinavian anti-vaxxers! Get 'em, Webster.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Object here.  You know it's not just a hospital stay.  It involves a recuperation period for quite a long time when heavy athletics is not advised.  It's possible the person may not be able to participate in high end athletics (and we don't know if the various soccer and other sports problems are either tied to myocarditis in the virus or athletics).  It could also involve permanent heart injury or lead to other heart conditions years down the line.  For someone trotting out long COVID, you seem remarkable unconcerned by this.
> 
> Yeah, you can argue that COVID virus carries the same risk but there's some evidence floating around that (particularly with moderna) the vaccine risk may be more substantial
> 
> And if transmission isn't stopped by the vaccine, you are also subjecting to them to two (instead of just 1 natural infection) risk events.
> 
> Side editorial here: as this continues to go on, you increasingly seem to be lashing out and/or losing your temper.


From your article:

”All of the cases were clinically mild, and the adolescents were hospitalized for an average of three days. None were readmitted during 30 days of follow-up.”

That is considerably less severe than death- even if the person has to quit sports as a result.

Do not read this as support or opposition to school vaccine requirements.  I just think you have not made the case that the heart inflammation risk outweighs the risk to the student.  Not a slam dunk in either direction, which may be why different countries are going in different directions.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> From your article:
> 
> ”All of the cases were clinically mild, and the adolescents were hospitalized for an average of three days. None were readmitted during 30 days of follow-up.”
> 
> That is considerably less severe than death- even if the person has to quit sports as a result.
> 
> Do not read this as support or opposition to school vaccine requirements.  I just think you have not made the case that the heart inflammation risk outweighs the risk to the student.  Not a slam dunk in either direction, which may be why different countries are going in different directions.


Again basic math.  If the vaccine is no where near 100 effective in blocking risk of infection (even if say we give you the benefit of the doubt and say fifty percent, which so far no data seems to support), by vaccinating you are exposing students to two potential myocarditis risks (one from the vaccine and one from the infection).  The only way this works out to make sense is if the vaccine is good at reducing myocarditis in natural infection and the risk from vaccination is less than myocarditis risk naturally....so far the data doesn't support that....and it certainly 100 percent doesn't support that for boosters beyond the initial shot, which is why many more countries are reluctant to recommend boosters for this age group.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> From your article:
> 
> ”All of the cases were clinically mild, and the adolescents were hospitalized for an average of three days. None were readmitted during 30 days of follow-up.”
> 
> That is considerably less severe than death- even if the person has to quit sports as a result.
> 
> Do not read this as support or opposition to school vaccine requirements.  I just think you have not made the case that the heart inflammation risk outweighs the risk to the student.  Not a slam dunk in either direction, which may be why different countries are going in different directions.


The child argument is an interesting on.  You are right, as more data comes out (myocarditis from vaccine/infectinos) the more polarizing it becomes.  Even now, as data from vaccine induced  inflammation is starting to be really assessed, it's pointing in the direction of less harm than more harm.  The covid infected data has always been what way...less harm for healthy kids.  The issue now is becoming more political and ethical.  

Medium and long-term safety data about  vaccines just isn't available.  Children and young people have a remaining life expectancy of 55 to 80 years. Unknown harmful long-term effects are far more consequential for the young than for the elderly.  This is where the mandates fall apart.  Telling people to vaccinate their Ulittle with a unnaproved vaccine just doesn't make sense, especially now.  IT's crazy talk really.  And with states trying to pass legislation that makes it legal for organizations to provide medical care for a minor without parental consent....  That's even more ludicrous. Imagine living in that world.   The argument to vaccinate kids to protect adults is silly as well and borderline unethical. 

If more kids were suffering from severe disease then of course things would be different.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again basic math.  If the vaccine is no where near 100 effective in blocking risk of infection (even if say we give you the benefit of the doubt and say fifty percent, which so far no data seems to support), by vaccinating you are exposing students to two potential myocarditis risks (one from the vaccine and one from the infection).  The only way this works out to make sense is if the vaccine is good at reducing myocarditis in natural infection and the risk from vaccination is less than myocarditis risk naturally....so far the data doesn't support that....and it certainly 100 percent doesn't support that for boosters beyond the initial shot, which is why many more countries are reluctant to recommend boosters for this age group.


Grace, the “basic math” in this case is about four years beyond anything you took.   

Also, your numbers are completely wrong on booster effectiveness against omicron.  You can keep saying “40%“ or “50%”, but that doesn’t make it true.  CDC is putting it at 82% or 90%.  90% is hospitalization.  82% is doctor visit. (urgent care)









						Effectiveness of a Third Dose of mRNA Vaccines ...
					

This report describes COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness time frames among people who received their first and second doses of the vaccine series, and effectiveness of third vaccine doses during both Delta- and Omicron-predominant periods.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, the “basic math” in this case is about four years beyond anything you took.
> 
> Also, your numbers are completely wrong on booster effectiveness against omicron.  You can keep saying “40%“ or “50%”, but that doesn’t make it true.  CDC is putting it at 82% or 90%.  90% is hospitalization.  82% is doctor visit. (urgent care)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of a Third Dose of mRNA Vaccines ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness time frames among people who received their first and second doses of the vaccine series, and effectiveness of third vaccine doses during both Delta- and Omicron-predominant periods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Wow you broke my Orwellian translator on this one. First you lead with the subtle insult despite always playing the victim. Then you fail to explain how the equation (which admittedly is very simplified) is wrong. Next the 40/50 numbers were the ones posted 10 weeks out for boosters from Europe (not just one vaccine…depending on the weeks out it’s anywhere from 5/25% for the adult pfizer full course). Next you ignore the prior post I put up on why even those numbers are inflated. Then you cite the cdc which is laughable considering all the bad science and propaganda they put out, especially in light of the fact kids boosters didn’t go through the normal vetting procedures and there have been fda resignations over those shots. There doesn’t appear to be a covidian propaganda you don’t like.  Finally rather than transmission numbers (which is what’s relevant if you are talking subjecting an individual to a risk event) you shift the goalposts to hospitalizations and doctor visits. Man two years out and you dig deeper and deeper into your fantasies…you went from a thinker to now clutching that blue pill tightly as the narrative collapses all around you. Literally shaking my head at what probably is the worst post you’ve ever posted since this began.
Ps the Bari Weiss piece I put up outlines exactly the case against kids and boosters…you just prefer to ignore it


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow you broke my Orwellian translator on this one. First you lead with the subtle insult despite always playing the victim. Then you fail to explain how the equation (which admittedly is very simplified) is wrong. Next the 40/50 numbers were the ones posted 10 weeks out for boosters from Europe (not just one vaccine…depending on the weeks out it’s anywhere from 5/25% for the adult pfizer full course). Next you ignore the prior post I put up on why even those numbers are inflated. Then you cite the cdc which is laughable considering all the bad science and propaganda they put out, especially in light of the fact kids boosters didn’t go through the normal vetting procedures and there have been fda resignations over those shots. There doesn’t appear to be a covidian propaganda you don’t like.  Finally rather than transmission numbers (which is what’s relevant if you are talking subjecting an individual to a risk event) you shift the goalposts to hospitalizations and doctor visits. Man two years out and you dig deeper and deeper into your fantasies…you went from a thinker to now clutching that blue pill tightly as the narrative collapses all around you. Literally shaking my head at what probably is the worst post you’ve ever posted since this began.
> Ps the Bari Weiss piece I put up outlines exactly the case against kids and boosters…you just prefer to ignore it


Subtle?  It's not subtle at all.

Twice, you condescendingly refer to your argument as basic math, implying that anyone who disagrees must be stupid.

The second time, I called you on it.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Wow you broke my Orwellian translator on this one. First you lead with the subtle insult despite always playing the victim. Then you fail to explain how the equation (which admittedly is very simplified) is wrong. Next the 40/50 numbers were the ones posted 10 weeks out for boosters from Europe (not just one vaccine…depending on the weeks out it’s anywhere from 5/25% for the adult pfizer full course). Next you ignore the prior post I put up on why even those numbers are inflated. Then you cite the cdc which is laughable considering all the bad science and propaganda they put out, especially in light of the fact kids boosters didn’t go through the normal vetting procedures and there have been fda resignations over those shots. There doesn’t appear to be a covidian propaganda you don’t like.  Finally rather than transmission numbers (which is what’s relevant if you are talking subjecting an individual to a risk event) you shift the goalposts to hospitalizations and doctor visits. Man two years out and you dig deeper and deeper into your fantasies…you went from a thinker to now clutching that blue pill tightly as the narrative collapses all around you. Literally shaking my head at what probably is the worst post you’ve ever posted since this began.
> Ps the Bari Weiss piece I put up outlines exactly the case against kids and boosters…you just prefer to ignore it


Since he loves “filters”, please make those CDC #’s are filtered using hospitalizations “from” and “with” Covid (as estimates have been roughly 40% of the hospitalizations are “with”, meaning they came in for something g other than Covid and tested positive while being admitted).


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Subtle?  It's not subtle at all.
> 
> Twice, you condescendingly refer to your argument as basic math, implying that anyone who disagrees must be stupid.
> 
> The second time, I called you on it.


When you change the parameters, you change the question and therefore the math.

How can you eliminate transmission rates from the effectiveness calculation of a vaccine?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Subtle?  It's not subtle at all.
> 
> Twice, you condescendingly refer to your argument as basic math, implying that anyone who disagrees must be stupid.
> 
> The second time, I called you on it.


Because its basic math and it’s hilarious that you can’t see it. Like most math types you wrap yourself up in such fancy rules you can’t see the very basic elements sitting in front of you: if the risk events can’t be avoided, two risks are more risky than one (or if you prefer even more simple and remedial…you rather take one roll of the dice than two). You still haven’t explained what’s wrong with that proposition. Basic basic basic and the great mathematician can’t see it. How humiliating.


----------



## Grace T.

L


Kicker 2.0 said:


> Since he loves “filters”, please make those CDC #’s are filtered using hospitalizations “from” and “with” Covid (as estimates have been roughly 40% of the hospitalizations are “with”, meaning they came in for something g other than Covid and tested positive while being admitted).


Yeah but they are irrelevant to the argument which is why he is goalpost moving (again). The only way he can really make out a case is if the transmission prevention numbers are reasonably high (we know for anything shy of the moderna booster they aren’t especially as they decline in time) and if the risk from myocarditis in young men is less in vaccination than natural infection (and there’s at least some evidence that it isn’t). That forces him move the goalpost to deaths, long covid, hospitalization and (in one of the stupidest and most irrelevant statements he’s ever made) doctor/er visits which we already know for the under 30 set is incredibly low and lower than a vaxxed 50 year old for the kids.  Even then, his best case scenario (were he to be right in all his assumptions) is vaccinated the immunonaive once (but boosters enter truly looney bin land).


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Grace, the “basic math” in this case is about four years beyond anything you took.
> 
> Also, your numbers are completely wrong on booster effectiveness against omicron.  You can keep saying “40%“ or “50%”, but that doesn’t make it true.  CDC is putting it at 82% or 90%.  90% is hospitalization.  82% is doctor visit. (urgent care)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of a Third Dose of mRNA Vaccines ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness time frames among people who received their first and second doses of the vaccine series, and effectiveness of third vaccine doses during both Delta- and Omicron-predominant periods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Those numbers have nothing to do with the young.

So giving the young doesn't solve or help anything.

They are not getting sick now or going to the hospital.

Further with o the vax doesn't stop the spread of the virus.

So there isn't any reason to give them the vaxx.


----------



## met61

And so it begins...time to destroy Rogan with the race card.



			https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/01/26/michael_eric_dyson_joe_rogan_proved_his_whiteness_indifferent_to_history_oblivious_to_truth__indifferent_to_reality.html


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> When you change the parameters, you change the question and therefore the math.
> 
> How can you eliminate transmission rates from the effectiveness calculation of a vaccine?


How do you design an experiment to measure vaccine effectiveness with respect to transmission?

I agree it would be nice to have, but I don't see an ethical way to do it.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> And so it begins...time to destroy Rogan with the race card.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/01/26/michael_eric_dyson_joe_rogan_proved_his_whiteness_indifferent_to_history_oblivious_to_truth__indifferent_to_reality.html




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486686427807051780


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Grace, the “basic math” in this case is about four years beyond anything you took.
> 
> Also, your numbers are completely wrong on booster effectiveness against omicron.  You can keep saying “40%“ or “50%”, but that doesn’t make it true.  CDC is putting it at 82% or 90%.  90% is hospitalization.  82% is doctor visit. (urgent care)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of a Third Dose of mRNA Vaccines ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness time frames among people who received their first and second doses of the vaccine series, and effectiveness of third vaccine doses during both Delta- and Omicron-predominant periods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


So, one size fits all?


----------



## MicPaPa

met61 said:


> And so it begins...time to destroy Rogan with the race card.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/01/26/michael_eric_dyson_joe_rogan_proved_his_whiteness_indifferent_to_history_oblivious_to_truth__indifferent_to_reality.html


One-trick pony.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> How do you design an experiment to measure vaccine effectiveness with respect to transmission?
> 
> I agree it would be nice to have, but I don't see an ethical way to do it.


True, but we are talking about data analysis right now.    You made a false claim based on the argument being made (not false if you add cherry picked parameters, but that changes the argument).

they have data, they know who got it and of those who where vaxx’d and boosted.  A few things that would skew the numbers are asymptomatic and untested and/or unreported home test positives, but likely not in a direction that would improve the effectiveness.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/DMseS9g


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486686427807051780


It has already been settled that "Jordan Peterson is actually one of the great philosophers of our age".


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> It has already been settled that "Jordan Peterson is actually one of the great philosophers of our age".


----------



## Ellejustus

*I dedicate this song to "Old Man" Espola.  I now have a visual of you Espola.*


----------



## Ellejustus

DOD CAUGHT COVERING UP MASSIVE NUMBERS OF COVID VACCINE ADVERSE EVENTS
					

Going to congress right now is like going to the devils committee. I don't know it if will do any good but it cannot hurt. I don't trust any of them. Senators and Congressmen don't get to DC by being good boys. Source: RenaudBe. More videos you may …




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> *I dedicate this song to "Old Man" Espola.  I now have a visual of you Espola.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12779


NEIL YOUNG: You can either have me or you can have-

SPOTIFY: The answer is whoever you're about to say.


----------



## what-happened

Kicker 2.0 said:


> True, but we are talking about data analysis right now.    You made a false claim based on the argument being made (not false if you add cherry picked parameters, but that changes the argument).
> 
> they have data, they know who got it and of those who where vaxx’d and boosted.  A few things that would skew the numbers are asymptomatic and untested and/or unreported home test positives, but likely not in a direction that would improve the effectiveness.


 The data is there, the brits already did a study with available data, published in the _The Lancet Infectious Diseases.  _

At the end of the day research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission.  Unfortunaly omicron and any follow on variants may make ths a moot point.  We are always going to be a step behind.  c-viruses tend to do what they need to do to stay relevant.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It has already been settled that "Jordan Peterson is actually one of the great philosophers of our age".


Another hum dinger of a winner for you Magoo :

1. what set of the discussion was the attack against Peterson as “an angry white guy”. Of course his perspective was going to be different than someone of African American descent. 
2. they were talking about the stupidity of labeling people the particular labels of “black” and “white” considering there are so few people that actually match those exact colors. They all actually wind up agreeing with each other since it’s pointed out on Daily that “black” is a term used by the European colonizers that arrived in Africa to discuss people darker than them and they just chose to label them “black”. The stupid part is THEY ALL AGREE ON THIS POINT
3. They don’t all have to be gems. Otherwise there’s a lot of Plato we need to throw out too. 
4. disappointed in you.Your trolling is better and more entertaining when you do comedy.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486686427807051780


I find it interesting that shows like the above bitch about Rogan. 

Watching the Daily Show one gets no real exposure to different opinions, usually gets jokes/commentaries from one direction, etc. 

But the clapping seals in the audience eat it up.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Desert Hound said:


> I find it interesting that shows like the above bitch about Rogan.
> 
> Watching the Daily Show one gets no real exposure to different opinions, usually gets jokes/commentaries from one direction, etc.
> 
> But the clapping seals in the audience eat it up.


DiFFeREnT OpINioN



http://imgur.com/a/tLokTNF


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> *Another hum dinger of a winner for you Magoo : they were talking about the stupidity of labeling people the particular labels of “black” and “white” considering there are so few people that actually match those exact colors.*


*Well, say that to this guy.... *



I used to live in East LA Grace T and San Gabriel Valley in the early 90s.  Only white guy in my apartment complex and everyone was so loving to me. No one mad dogged or looked at me with scorn or hate.  Today, I go to LA and people have mask on, look super scared and have that look of fear, like maybe this is all my fault.  You can't love if you open with fear.  Impossible.  I read people's energy and I can feel it strongly when someone hates me because of my color or my demand for honesty and transparency.  Character does not matter to some.  Cops are getting shot in record numbers every night.  Like really, shot and killed at record numbers.  I hate to say what's going to come next, but if you think two summers ago was rough, just wait.  Mid Terms ring an alarm bell in your brain?  We all have been on the forum the last few years and during the time when T was running our country in 2018.  Look at this group of people and wtf they have done to people's lives.  Vax and no vax, black and white and brown have all been impacted.  The children have it the worst.  Come on folks, were all getting played.  WHO does something like that to humans?  They will use race bait to cause us to hate.  Don't give in.  I will walk in LA with love and kindness and if that get's me killed, oh well.  All criminals have been let out of jail for one last smash & go ride of a lifetime and no one has bail anymore, so they can just keep doing it until.  Hello, this is bad news.  When elites start losing in sports, work, politics, or the just the game of life, they pull every card out of their play book to win at all cost.  Lie, cheat, start wars, send our kids to dies, steal, lie some more cards, cancel people out, pay to play, back stab, snob card, whack them, shut them up, label them, fire them, force jab, force mask, force boosters, force label force and just born to be forced into slavery.  No one is free right now and we all know it.  Welcome to hell everyone.  First, at least we know where the hell we are today.  We were duped at birth and snake oiled by the snake himself.  95% of what we believe is from someone else who was here before us and he or she left their dreams for us.  Some psycho(s) dreamed of running and controlling the planet through deception and forcing people to comply with their cocktail of juice to put in our blood.  Watch the blood......


----------



## Soccermaverick

DiFFeREnT OpINioN



http://imgur.com/a/kdwlbq7


----------



## Soccermaverick

DiFFerEnt OpinIOn



http://imgur.com/a/iFzHq


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> NEIL YOUNG: You can either have me or you can have-
> 
> SPOTIFY: The answer is whoever you're about to say.


Kind of like, "either you do as told and get the shots and the boosters or your fired and can't participant in any of the reindeers games!"  All my pals just sat on their fence as I got crushed again and again and so many also lost all their businesses from this ruling class who tells you what to learn, how to learn it, force BS curriculum down kids throats, can;t play sports without a mask, can;t playt college sports without a jab and have to get a vax in order to receive a new heart you were waiting for and so much more evil.  Sometimes you need to walk in hell, live in hell to get to heaven.  The Master Teacher is coming.  Guru means to be your own teacher.  Each soul needs to become whole again.  Gu is dark and Ru a light?  Go and run to the light.  Be your own GURU!!!!


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> Kind of like, "either you do as told and get the shots and the boosters or your fired and can't participant in any of the reindeers games!"  All my pals just sat on their fence as I got crushed again and again and so many also got lost all their businesses from this ruling class who tells you what to learn, how to learn it, force BS curriculum down kids throats, can;t play sports without a mask, can;t playt college sports without a jab and have to get a vax in order to receive a new heart you were waiting for and so much more evil.  Sometimes you need to walk in hell, live in hell to get to heaven.  The Master Teacher is coming.  Guru means to be your own teacher.  Each soul needs to become whole again.  Gu is dark and RU is light.  Go and run to the light.  Be your own GURU!!!!


Boomers taking Ls 

it’s great to see


----------



## Brav520

LOL

BREAKING: Barry Manilow to withdraw his music from Spotify over Joe Rogan


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> LOL
> 
> BREAKING: Barry Manilow to withdraw his music from Spotify over Joe Rogan


Mandy would not approve.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> 2. they were talking about the stupidity of labeling people the particular labels of “black” and “white” considering there are so few people that actually match those exact colors. They all actually wind up agreeing with each other since it’s pointed out on Daily that “black” is a term used by the European colonizers that arrived in Africa to discuss people darker than them and they just chose to label them “black”. The stupid part is THEY ALL AGREE ON THIS POINT


We are asymptotically approaching the core of the issue which has always been class. It's not that there isn't and hasn't been a racial component to class but where do you draw the line on who is "black"? This is becoming more difficult as our country becomes more mixed and less "white".









						The nation is diversifying even faster than predicted, according to new census data
					

New census estimates reveal that nearly four of 10 Americans identify with a race or ethnic group other than white, and suggest that the 2010 to 2020 decade will be the first in the nation’s history in which the white population declined in numbers.




					www.brookings.edu


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> I find it interesting that shows like the above bitch about Rogan.
> 
> Watching the Daily Show one gets no real exposure to different opinions, usually gets jokes/commentaries from one direction, etc.
> 
> But the clapping seals in the audience eat it up.


It's weird that in my lifetime the left has become the power that wants to "protect" people from free speech. Conspiracy theories have been out there FOREVER. The best we can do is lead with honesty, transparency, and balance in how information is presented. We are reaping the "rewards" of advocacy journalism and dishonest leadership where their leaders and followers are now hacking at the leaves with an authoritarian approach due to the seeds that they planted.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> I find it interesting that shows like the above bitch about Rogan.
> 
> Watching the Daily Show one gets no real exposure to different opinions, usually gets jokes/commentaries from one direction, etc.
> 
> But the clapping seals in the audience eat it up.


Noah lacks the jon stewart intellect, it's that simple.  Stewart cared about social issues. The show's ratings are in the gutter, especially with the orange boogy man not around to make fun of the media and send mean tweets.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I find it interesting that shows like the above bitch about Rogan.
> 
> Watching the Daily Show one gets no real exposure to different opinions, usually gets jokes/commentaries from one direction, etc.
> 
> But the clapping seals in the audience eat it up.


You realize that “clapping seals in the audience” is a pretty good description of this thread, right?


----------



## NorCalDad

It's going to be interesting to see how this Spotify thing plays out.  Could just be a flash in the pan, but if more artists follow suit it could literally take down Spotify.  The pressure could be too much for their board / stock holders.   The other interesting thing about this "cancel" attempt is its free market driven.  Neil Young is within his rights to say he doesn't want to have his music on their platform and users are within their rights to cancel their membership.  There could be a downward spiral effect where other less political users cancel because their favorite musicians have left.  This is definitely different than a platform proactively removing users (Orange Man on Twitter for example).  You can't even add regulation here.  Time for some popcorn.


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> LOL
> 
> BREAKING: Barry Manilow to withdraw his music from Spotify over Joe Rogan


Bye bye Barry.....Say hi to, Oh Mandy


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how this Spotify thing plays out.  Could just be a flash in the pan, but if more artists follow suit it could literally take down Spotify.  The pressure could be too much for their board / stock holders.   The other interesting thing about this "cancel" attempt is its free market driven.  Neil Young is within his rights to say he doesn't want to have his music on their platform and users are within their rights to cancel their membership.  There could be a downward spiral effect where other less political users cancel because their favorite musicians have left.  This is definitely different than a platform proactively removing users (Orange Man on Twitter for example).  You can't even add regulation here.  Time for some popcorn.


Oh please.......Spare us and get real bro.  This is what you wanted and now you have to choose Barry or Joe?  You chose Vax so I'm sure you will want Mandy


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You realize that “clapping seals in the audience” is a pretty good description of this thread, right?


Maybe on your end since there's never been a pronouncement by Fauci you guys didn't stand up an applaud for and those guys can do no wrong and should never be questioned.  On our end, except for the extreme antivaxxer and 13 coils types, the entire thing has been ask questions, think critically and don't readily believe anything people in authority tell you.  That's been the entire shtick from the beginning.  Amazing you still don't get that.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> How do you design an experiment to measure vaccine effectiveness with respect to transmission?
> 
> I agree it would be nice to have, but I don't see an ethical way to do it.


You don't need an experiment when you have clear real world results.  We can quibble about percentages and semantics about "effectiveness", but its plainly obvious that vaccinations have not prevented community spread.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Oh please.......Spare us and get real bro.  This is what you wanted and now you have to choose Barry or Joe?  You chose Vax so I'm sure you will want Mandy


The music and entertainment industry leans left and is prone to group think.  NorCalDad’s scenario is certainly possible.

Don’t count it as what I want, though.  What I’d prefer is media outlets which exercise editorial judgement, and I’m not going to get that.  At most, we’ll get a further fracturing of the landscape, with conservatives on Spotify and liberals somewhere else, each trying to shut the other down.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You don't need an experiment when you have clear real world results.  We can quibble about percentages and semantics about "effectiveness", but its plainly obvious that vaccinations have not prevented community spread.


Really?  

How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?

There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Really?
> 
> How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?
> 
> There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


You must be joking?  

I myself got O from a vax’d and boosted friend.  Everyone in my office is vaxx’d  and all but 2 people have gotten O at different times since the holidays.  

Everyone in my peer group is Vax’d. All but 1 have gotten O in January.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Really?
> 
> How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?
> 
> There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


Gold medal mental gymnastics.  How do you determine the "source" when the virus is inherent in our environment?  Where do you draw the line and say the source starts here?  Reality is "patient zero" is the source which at that point everyone was unvaccinated, that ship has sailed.  The source is irrelevant in terms of community spread when the vaccinated have no trouble spreading the virus.  Vaccinate everyone and the virus is still inherent and will be spread.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> You don't need an experiment when you have clear real world results.  We can quibble about percentages and semantics about "effectiveness", but its *plainly obvious* that vaccinations have not prevented community spread.


Or, PAINFULLY OBVIOUS


----------



## baldref

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You must be joking?
> 
> I myself got O from a vax’d and boosted friend.  Everyone in my office is vaxx’d  and all but 2 people have gotten O at different times since the holidays.
> 
> Everyone in my peer group is Vax’d. All but 1 have gotten O in January.


This is the reality. Like it or not, it is reality.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> The music and entertainment industry leans left and is prone to group think.  NorCalDad’s scenario is certainly possible.
> 
> Don’t count it as what I want, though.  What I’d prefer is media outlets which exercise editorial judgement, and I’m not going to get that.  At most, we’ll get a further fracturing of the landscape, with conservatives on Spotify and liberals somewhere else, each trying to shut the other down.


I want....


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how this Spotify thing plays out.  Could just be a flash in the pan, but if more artists follow suit it could literally take down Spotify.  The pressure could be too much for their board / stock holders.   The other interesting thing about this "cancel" attempt is its free market driven.  Neil Young is within his rights to say he doesn't want to have his music on their platform and users are within their rights to cancel their membership.  There could be a downward spiral effect where other less political users cancel because their favorite musicians have left.  This is definitely different than a platform proactively removing users (Orange Man on Twitter for example).  You can't even add regulation here.  Time for some popcorn.


In today's times Rogan is relevant and Neil Young is irrelevant.  Easy decision for Spotify.  Credit to Neil Young for at least putting his money where his mouth is, although Young didn't seem to care about the message he was sending when he performed with a rock of cocaine hanging out of his nose, or all those years of well known illicit drug use and alcohol abuse.  The irony is comical, at least he is sober now.  I seriously doubt that this will open the floodgates to follow Young's lead.  In fact, if it does I suspect any losses will be offset by driving new listeners to Rogan as a result of the publicity.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> In today's times Rogan is relevant and Neil Young is irrelevant.  Easy decision for Spotify.  Credit to Neil Young for at least putting his money where his mouth is, although Young didn't seem to care about the message he was sending when he performed with a rock of cocaine hanging out of his nose, or all those years of well known illicit drug use and alcohol abuse.  The irony is comical, at least he is sober now.  I seriously doubt that this will open the floodgates to follow Young's lead.  In fact, if it does I suspect any losses will be offset by driving new listeners to Rogan as a result of the publicity.


This is a dub for rogan.  in today's new cycle and the average age of a spotify user, this "event" is well beyond the rear view mirrow.  Good on mr. young...even though this falls into the "good initiate, bad judgement" category.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> In today's times Rogan is relevant and Neil Young is irrelevant.  Easy decision for Spotify.  Credit to Neil Young for at least putting his money where his mouth is, although Young didn't seem to care about the message he was sending when he performed with a rock of cocaine hanging out of his nose, or all those years of well known illicit drug use and alcohol abuse.  The irony is comical, at least he is sober now.  I seriously doubt that this will open the floodgates to follow Young's lead.  In fact, if it does I suspect any losses will be offset by driving new listeners to Rogan as a result of the publicity.


I'm not sure Neil Young put much money on the table. He has the neilyoungarchives site where he has streaming, and he makes his money via touring, or just playing a few gigs (as all big artists do these days), so financially this was a "meh" to him I expect. By the by, NY dinged his record label (Warner) and asked them to have the songs taken down, and they in turn asked Spotify. The latter probably reasoned what they make from NY versus Rogan is night & day. Rogan has 11M subscribers and is on a $100M contract. There was only one "winner" in this.

Spotify is moving towards being an audio platform, with podcasts being key to that. They want subscribers and weekly podcasts (new content) make a lot more sense that an artist that might bring out a new song/album every few years.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Really?
> 
> How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?
> 
> There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


ummm


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> In today's times Rogan is relevant and Neil Young is irrelevant.  Easy decision for Spotify.  Credit to Neil Young for at least putting his money where his mouth is, although Young didn't seem to care about the message he was sending when he performed with a rock of cocaine hanging out of his nose, or all those years of well known illicit drug use and alcohol abuse.  The irony is comical, at least he is sober now.  I seriously doubt that this will open the floodgates to follow Young's lead.  In fact, if it does I suspect any losses will be offset by driving new listeners to Rogan as a result of the publicity.


LSD did do wonders for America in the 60s and 70s if you got a hit of "Orange Sunshine" out of Laguna Canyon.  It stopped the Vietnam War.  Millions and millions of "trips of love" were made in Laguna by Timothy and the Brotherhood of Eternal Love and handed out for free.   Shrooms and other natural plants like Peyote can help some people understand the divine better and see their shadow.  I would go with a known medicine doctor or a shaman who knows what to do.  The wrong batch can also cause one to jump off a cliff or kill himself.  I knew a guy that thought he could fly and he jumped and died.  It was bad LSD lased with poison or bath soap.  That one guy in Florida was high on bath salt and killed his number by ___________________________________________ his face.  I dont want to share but he said later he thought he was a Chimp.


----------



## Ellejustus

what-happened said:


> This is a dub for rogan.  in today's new cycle and the average age of a spotify user, this "event" is well beyond the rear view mirrow.  Good on mr. young...even though this falls into the "good initiate, bad judgement" category.


I like his music in old days.  I don;t like his either or attitude of today, but that's what we were all taught from birth.  It's just showing it;s true self.  Either you obey or your fired.


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12785


When someone has to bribe you to do something that's a big red flag that what they want you to do might not be in your best interest.  While I think getting a vaccine is in most people's best interest, the messaging may lead you to believe otherwise.  Personally I don't think the vaccination is the biggest issue in terms of vaccine hesitancy, I think the messaging around the vaccine has been the biggest problem.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Personally I don't think the vaccination is the biggest issue in terms of vaccine hesitancy, I think the messaging around the vaccine has been the biggest problem.


I love you because we can disagree to disagree and still respect each other.  I am more emotional then you and that's ok because most men are a mess right now and have zero emotion or feelings of empathy towards other bad luck.  I told the Ladies I hang out that complain about "where are all the good men?"  I tell them that the good men are tired and worn out and need a freaking break from all this hell and pressure to keep up with the Jones.  This place needs a re-boot,  Agree?  The ladies are waiting.......


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You must be joking?
> 
> I myself got O from a vax’d and boosted friend.  Everyone in my office is vaxx’d  and all but 2 people have gotten O at different times since the holidays.
> 
> Everyone in my peer group is Vax’d. All but 1 have gotten O in January.


Not joking at all.

Unvaccinated people may be uncommon in some places, but they make up a large fraction of currently infectious people.

For SCC, unvaccinated are 15% of the population.  But they test positive at almost 6x the rate of everyone else.   The net effect is that about half of all new infections are unvaccinated people.

Then remember that vaccinated people spend less time at peak viral load.  With that, more than half of currently infectious people are unvaccinated.  Far more than half if you live in a county with a lower vax rate.

Given that, it's entirely possible you and your friends got omicron from unvaccinated people who just happen to like the same bar, restaurant, coffee shop, or gym as you do.   There are lots of infected unvaccinated people, you enjoy indoor establishments, and omicron is very contagious.

That is not proof or even close, but it certainly isn't obvious the other way, either.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> ummm


Put it this way, I don't see a case that it is "obvious" that R for vax to vax is above 1.

Not obvious that it is below 1, either.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Really?
> 
> How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?
> 
> There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


Do you really believe what you say? I get the feeling you just fish for some sort of response...he never even said "significant" source.  Why does it even matter the source at this point.  The virus spreads to vaccinated and unvaccinated, variants will never end, the vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be, if you want to get a booster every 6 months you will probably have less symptoms and stay out of the hospital.  How hard is that to understand.  I am not sure how you can argue any of those points still.  

I just wonder what you think about the fact they originally said if you get vaccinated you wont get covid and then they said you can't spread it, they were wrong about both! They had no idea, it is experimental, they were wrong and its only been 2 years.... doesn't that make you wonder what will happen in 10-15 years? If they were so wrong about the short term what gives you confidence that they are going to be correct about the long term? I am really interested in what you think about that???


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The net effect is that about half of all new infections are unvaccinated people.


And the other half would be?

I don't doubt that unvaccinated may be more likely to be infected, but what do you base your 6X greater on.  Reported cases?  The vaccinated are far more likely to have non-reported cases, since they are less likely to require medical care.  Most of those that I know that were infected but vaccinated in the last month or so, never tested at a testing site, most only took home tests.

Suffice it to say that there is enough critical mass of the vaccinated getting infected (ie the "other half") to spread the virus like wildfire, although case rates are trending down.  I suspect mostly due to infected immunity.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Do you really believe what you say? I get the feeling you just fish for some sort of response...he never even said "significant" source.  Why does it even matter the source at this point.  The virus spreads to vaccinated and unvaccinated, variants will never end, the vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be, if you want to get a booster every 6 months you will probably have less symptoms and stay out of the hospital.  How hard is that to understand.  I am not sure how you can argue any of those points still.
> 
> I just wonder what you think about the fact they originally said if you get vaccinated you wont get covid and then they said you can't spread it, they were wrong about both! They had no idea, it is experimental, they were wrong and its only been 2 years.... doesn't that make you wonder what will happen in 10-15 years? If they were so wrong about the short term what gives you confidence that they are going to be correct about the long term? I am really interested in what you think about that???


Yes, I believe what I write.

Why does it matter?  Because, if 80% of transmission is coming from 20% of people, then that tells you where your energy needs to go.


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> I'm not sure Neil Young put much money on the table. He has the neilyoungarchives site where he has streaming, and he makes his money via touring, or just playing a few gigs (as all big artists do these days), so financially this was a "meh" to him I expect. By the by, NY dinged his record label (Warner) and asked them to have the songs taken down, and they in turn asked Spotify. The latter probably reasoned what they make from NY versus Rogan is night & day. Rogan has 11M subscribers and is on a $100M contract. There was only one "winner" in this.
> 
> Spotify is moving towards being an audio platform, with podcasts being key to that. They want subscribers and weekly podcasts (new content) make a lot more sense that an artist that might bring out a new song/album every few years.


Just guessing here -- Young's royalty checks from his work in the '60s and '70s probably make Spotify's contributions irrelevant.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> And the other half would be?
> 
> I don't doubt that unvaccinated may be more likely to be infected, but what do you base your 6X greater on.  Reported cases?  The vaccinated are far more likely to have non-reported cases, since they are less likely to require medical care.  Most of those that I know that were infected but vaccinated in the last month or so, never tested at a testing site, most only took home tests.
> 
> Suffice it to say that there is enough critical mass of the vaccinated getting infected (ie the "other half") to spread the virus like wildfire, although case rates are trending down.  I suspect mostly due to infected immunity.


The 6X number is from the SCC website.

I think they just cross reference the new positive tests against the state vaccine database.

Our cases are falling already, after only about 2-3 weeks of 5000 cases per day.  That's significant, but still a small fraction of a county with 2M people.  I don't think you can call it natural herd immunity unless your testing is missing 90%-95% of new cases.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Not joking at all.
> 
> Unvaccinated people may be uncommon in some places, but they make up a large fraction of currently infectious people.
> 
> For SCC, unvaccinated are 15% of the population.  But they test positive at almost 6x the rate of everyone else.   The net effect is that about half of all new infections are unvaccinated people.
> 
> Then remember that vaccinated people spend less time at peak viral load.  With that, more than half of currently infectious people are unvaccinated.  Far more than half if you live in a county with a lower vax rate.
> 
> Given that, it's entirely possible you and your friends got omicron from unvaccinated people who just happen to like the same bar, restaurant, coffee shop, or gym as you do.   There are lots of infected unvaccinated people, you enjoy indoor establishments, and omicron is very contagious.
> 
> That is not proof or even close, but it certainly isn't obvious the other way, either.


You have research to prove that for Omicron?

I think at this point we’ve seen you rearrange the parameters to fit your narrative enough to see what hat you are willing to ignore the obvious.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Yes, I believe what I write.
> 
> Why does it matter?  Because, if 80% of transmission is coming from 20% of people, then that tells you where your energy needs to go.


these numbers?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Put it this way, I don't see a case that it is "obvious" that R for vax to vax is above 1.
> 
> Not obvious that it is below 1, either.


how is it not above 1?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The 6X number is from the SCC website.
> 
> I think they just cross reference the new positive tests against the state vaccine database.
> 
> Our cases are falling already, after only about 2-3 weeks of 5000 cases per day.  That's significant, but still a small fraction of a county with 2M people.  I don't think you can call it natural herd immunity unless your testing is missing 90%-95% of new cases.


So let me ask you this...if the vaccinated can still spread the virus and represent half the cases, why do you still think its appropriate to discriminate against and vilify the unvaccinated? If its based on rate of spread, where do you draw that line in the sand?  If the unvaxx spread it 10% more? 50%? 100%? 600%?  Seems incredibly arbitrary and non-sciency to me.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> how is it not above 1?


If the unvax-vax transmission rate is high enough, vax cases will grow even if vax-vax transmission is below 1.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how this Spotify thing plays out.  Could just be a flash in the pan, but if more artists follow suit it could literally take down Spotify.  The pressure could be too much for their board / stock holders.   The other interesting thing about this "cancel" attempt is its free market driven.  Neil Young is within his rights to say he doesn't want to have his music on their platform and users are within their rights to cancel their membership.  There could be a downward spiral effect where other less political users cancel because their favorite musicians have left.  This is definitely different than a platform proactively removing users (Orange Man on Twitter for example).  You can't even add regulation here.  Time for some popcorn.


“Hope Neil Young will remember 
Southern man don’t need him around anyhow” 
Neil Young doesn’t care, he’s an artist that follows his own path, remember “Trans”? I don’t believe anyone else of great consequence will follow his lead in this age of soulless commercialism. Money doesn’t care about politics, just revenue.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So let me ask you this...if the vaccinated can still spread the virus and represent half the cases, why do you still think its appropriate to discriminate against and vilify the unvaccinated? If its based on rate of spread, where do you draw that line in the sand?  If the unvaxx spread it 10% more? 50%? 100%? 600%?  Seems incredibly arbitrary and non-sciency to me.


Because his theory is the reason the vaxxed are spreading it is because they get it from the unvaxxed. 

It is unsupported of course but that seems to be where he is taking this.


----------



## Desert Hound

And now we have a STEALTH VERSION. 

Probably should lock down and close schools again just to make sure...eh?

Stealth omicron is a subvariant of omicron. Why is it called stealth omicron? Yo*u cannot identify the type of variant through a PCR test like you can with omicron*. Genomic sequencing has to be conducted in a specialized lab to identify the variant, which takes longer. In Denmark, where stealth omicron cases are rapidly increasing, it went from 20% of cases in December, to 45% of cases two weeks ago, *and now it’s about 65% of cases. *“It’s moving fast, it’s taking over the landscape,” said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, infectious disease specialist at University of California San Francisco.





			https://www.star-telegram.com/news/coronavirus/article257785748.html


----------



## Grace T.

Long COVID is rare in children and of limited duration....








						Long COVID symptoms and duration in SARS-CoV-2 positive children — a nationwide cohort study - European Journal of Pediatrics
					

Most children have a mild course of acute COVID-19. Only few mainly non-controlled studies with small sample size have evaluated long-term recovery from SARS-CoV-2 infection in children. The aim of this study was to evaluate symptoms and duration of ‘long COVID’ in children. A nationwide cohort...




					link.springer.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Because his theory is the reason the vaxxed are spreading it is because they get it from the unvaxxed.
> 
> It is unsupported of course but that seems to be where he is taking this.


You are still trying to speak for me, and still getting it wrong.

As I said earlier, I do not know whether the omicron vax-vax transmission rate is above or below 1.

Neither do you.  Nor do you seem the least bit interested in figuring it out.

Now click the laugh emoji.


----------



## watfly

Any one know the status of the "winter of death" and the "twindemic"?  Asking for a friend.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So let me ask you this...if the vaccinated can still spread the virus and represent half the cases, why do you still think its appropriate to discriminate against and vilify the unvaccinated? If its based on rate of spread, where do you draw that line in the sand?  If the unvaxx spread it 10% more? 50%? 100%? 600%?  Seems incredibly arbitrary and non-sciency to me.


Vilify?

If you are unvaccinated and choose to take other precautions, you have my respect.  I have no problem with someone who declines the vax but wears a mask and chooses to spend their time outside.  Not the path I picked, but certainly a path which respects the health of those around you.

If you are unvaccinated and insist on visiting bars, restaurants, gyms, and other high risk places, then that is a different question.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Hope Neil Young will remember
> Southern man don’t need him around anyhow”
> Neil Young doesn’t care, he’s an artist that follows his own path, remember “Trans”? I don’t believe anyone else of great consequence will follow his lead in this age of soulless commercialism. Money doesn’t care about politics, just revenue.


One of LS biggest hits v. one of Young's forgettables.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> As I said earlier, I do not know whether the omicron vax-vax transmission rate is above or below 1.


I'll admit, I don't know and I don't care...or more explicitly I don't give an F about R's.  I'll I need to know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes that its spreading quite easily among the vaccinated.  Math equations don't change reality no matter how hard you try.  Is it your opinion that vaccination mandates should be based on R values?  What's your end game with R values?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Vilify?
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and choose to take other precautions, you have my respect.  I have no problem with someone who declines the vax but wears a mask and chooses to spend their time outside.  Not the path I picked, but certainly a path which respects the health of those around you.
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and insist on visiting bars, restaurants, gyms, and other high risk places, then that is a different question.


How about unvaccinated, tested positive, and visits restaurants unmasked?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Vilify?
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and choose to take other precautions, you have my respect.  I have no problem with someone who declines the vax but wears a mask and chooses to spend their time outside.  Not the path I picked, but certainly a path which respects the health of those around you.
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and insist on visiting bars, restaurants, gyms, and other high risk places, then that is a different question.


You might want to spread out your contradictions over separate posts, instead of doing it in one post.  It's less noticeable that way.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> How about unvaccinated, tested positive, and visits restaurants unmasked?
> 
> View attachment 12787


Is there any other way to visit a restaurant other than unmasked?  It would seem that it makes it difficult to eat and drink with a mask on.  Even Newsom wasn't able to do that, although he hadn't recently tested positive.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I'll admit, I don't know and I don't care...or more explicitly I don't give an F about R's.  I'll I need to know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes that its spreading quite easily among the vaccinated.  Math equations don't change reality no matter how hard you try.  Is it your opinion that vaccination mandates should be based on R values?  What's your end game with R values?


R isn't even that important, it's based on too many assumptions. It's only really important to politicians, the media, and data driven peeps.  R doesn't help to manage a pandemic.  It makes for great charts though. I think someone even created a website where you could check out everyone's R rate. 

R certainly doesn't drive treatment


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> How about unvaccinated, tested positive, and visits restaurants unmasked?
> 
> View attachment 12787


Looks pretty healthy, no one at the table looks scared.  Besides, she has immunity and the others at her table in the restaurants I presume are vaccinated?  What's the big deal?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Really?
> 
> How is it “obvious” that vaccinated people are a significant _*source*_ of omicron transmission?
> 
> There is an alternate possibility- that omicron is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated, and from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated.  I don’t see how you dismiss that hypothesis without quite a bit of work.


this is especially true since there is no correlation between being PCR positive and infectious viral titers.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> I'll admit, I don't know and I don't care...or more explicitly I don't give an F about R's.  I'll I need to know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes that its spreading quite easily among the vaccinated.  Math equations don't change reality no matter how hard you try.  Is it your opinion that vaccination mandates should be based on R values?  What's your end game with R values?


again. Reality


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Vilify?
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and choose to take other precautions, you have my respect.  I have no problem with someone who declines the vax but wears a mask and chooses to spend their time outside.  Not the path I picked, but certainly a path which respects the health of those around you.
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and insist on visiting bars, restaurants, gyms, and other high risk places, then that is a different question.


I don't have a problem with the ____________________, as long as they don't go out in public.

a. unvaccinated
b. blacks
c. gays
d. all of the above

See how that sounds (and no I'm not accusing you of being racist or a homophope)?  You seem to equate the unvaccinated with the infected, when they're two completely separate things.  You assume the unvaccinated are lesser than the vaccinated.  That's prejudice.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> again. Reality


Speaking of reality, how are you feeling?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Vilify?
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and choose to take other precautions, you have my respect.  I have no problem with someone who declines the vax but wears a mask and chooses to spend their time outside.  Not the path I picked, but certainly a path which respects the health of those around you.
> 
> If you are unvaccinated and insist on visiting bars, restaurants, gyms, and other high risk places, then that is a different question.


You really believe it's still about the unvaccinated, unbelievable.  We have already established most testing sites never ask if you are vaccinated, testing sites are being sued and investigated in multiple states, how many with minimal symptoms even went to get tested when testing sites had 4 hour waits? So how accurate can the number really be? Just look around, how many of your vaxxed friends got covid? It is spreading to everyone, everyone, you can't recognize that???? No way it's 80/20 

Watch this, an attorney defending whistle blowers from the department of defense...especially the last 45 seconds it talks. 
Another serious question...you think they are making up these numbers? or are just the numbers you see the most accurate? Because, undoubtedly the government, who supports and is pushing everyone to get vaccinated would share the truth....lol  

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/096/729/930/original/6172961f4e73ba9d.mp4


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Speaking of reality, how are you feeling?


Still have the fatigue, but it's getting better. Done my ten days in purgatory, so next week it's back to the grind.

thanks


----------



## Soccermaverick

YeP


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/serf8g


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> Still have the fatigue, but it's getting better. Done my ten days in purgatory, so next week it's back to the grind.
> 
> thanks


Sounds like a pretty common story with the lingering fatigue, hopefully that disappears soon.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Is there any other way to visit a restaurant other than unmasked?  It would seem that it makes it difficult to eat and drink with a mask on.  Even Newsom wasn't able to do that, although he hadn't recently tested positive.


Masked at the entrance, unmasked to eat or drink.


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/seuy2p


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Looks pretty healthy, no one at the table looks scared.  Besides, she has immunity and the others at her table in the restaurants I presume are vaccinated?  What's the big deal?


Hypocrisy.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Sounds like a pretty common story with the lingering fatigue, hopefully that disappears soon.


I have extended family in the Netherlands. Exact same story. Medium sized village, 99% vaxed and boostered. It's tearing through the village. Same exact symptoms and they're all saying the fatigue lingers. But no one got "really sick".


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't have a problem with the ____________________, as long as they don't go out in public.
> 
> a. unvaccinated
> b. blacks
> c. gays
> d. all of the above
> 
> See how that sounds (and no I'm not accusing you of being racist or a homophope)?  You seem to equate the unvaccinated with the infected, when they're two completely separate things.  You assume the unvaccinated are lesser than the vaccinated.  That's prejudice.


There are sound reasons for choosing a.  What would be the reasons for the other selections?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I don't have a problem with the ____________________, as long as they don't go out in public.
> 
> a. unvaccinated
> b. blacks
> c. gays
> d. all of the above
> 
> See how that sounds (and no I'm not accusing you of being racist or a homophope)?  You seem to equate the unvaccinated with the infected, when they're two completely separate things.  You assume the unvaccinated are lesser than the vaccinated.  That's prejudice.


I’ve spent most of two years on the assumption that I should limit my activities because I might be able to infect others.  If restricting activity means I am prejudiced, then I am also prejudiced against me.


----------



## Soccermaverick

You do


watfly said:


> I don't have a problem with the ____________________, as long as they don't go out in public.
> 
> a. unvaccinated
> b. blacks
> c. gays
> d. all of the above
> 
> See how that sounds (and no I'm not accusing you of being racist or a homophope)?  You seem to equate the unvaccinated with the infected, when they're two completely separate things.  You assume the unvaccinated are lesser than the vaccinated.  That's prejudice.


Some don’t have what it takes or the courage to get vaccinated


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> *So let me ask you this...if the vaccinated can still spread the virus and represent half the cases, why do you still think its appropriate to discriminate against and vilify the unvaccinated?*


I was thinking the same thing.  This has to be about something else bro.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> I’ve spent most of two years on the assumption that I should limit my activities because I might be able to infect others.  If restricting activity means I am prejudiced, then I am also prejudiced against me.


I wouldn’t expect you to have a problem with your own choices.  Most people function that way.


----------



## Grace T.

soccersc said:


> You really believe it's still about the unvaccinated, unbelievable.  We have already established most testing sites never ask if you are vaccinated, testing sites are being sued and investigated in multiple states, how many with minimal symptoms even went to get tested when testing sites had 4 hour waits? So how accurate can the number really be? Just look around, how many of your vaxxed friends got covid? It is spreading to everyone, everyone, you can't recognize that???? No way it's 80/20
> 
> Watch this, an attorney defending whistle blowers from the department of defense...especially the last 45 seconds it talks.
> Another serious question...you think they are making up these numbers? or are just the numbers you see the most accurate? Because, undoubtedly the government, who supports and is pushing everyone to get vaccinated would share the truth....lol
> 
> https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/096/729/930/original/6172961f4e73ba9d.mp4


I know of two superspreader events personally that were caused by fully vaxxed people.  The first was with the Delta and I've written about it before.  Family of ten people at a BBQ...the 3 with natural immunity didn't fall ill.  The remainder were all fully vaxxed, some boosted, and almost all got it...all mild except an older fully vaxxed individual (and that one never went critical).  Spread outside despite that all except the 3 with natural immunity were wearing masks.  2/3 naturally immune were also fully double vaxxed.

Second was a wedding with about 100 people in attendance with a coworker.  Everyone at least attested they were fully vaxxed (hosts didn't check vaccine cards but required everyone on the RSVP to attest they were fully vaxxed (J&J not accepted unless boosted)).  All the staff were also required to be vaxxed and supposedly checked by the vendor.  Possible an unvaxxed person slipped in despite the firewall, but patient zero was believed to be a double vaxxed individual who started feeling unwell towards the end of the reception and tested positive the next day.  A little north than fifty percent of the wedding (including the entire wedding party) came down with COVID.  Wedding was outside, reception was indoors.

And then there's the Neatherlands Christmas Party superspreader event.  It was confirmed to be an Omicron event where 70 percent of the party attendees and sixty guests and the same restaurant came down with omicron.  Because omicron is not in widespread circulation in Europe at that time, it is believed that the patient zero was an individual returning from South Africa.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Hypocrisy.


Might need to tell that to the CDC:

IF YOU
Were exposed to COVID-19 and are up-to-date on COVID-19 vaccinations
No quarantine
You do not need to stay home unless you develop symptoms.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> I know of two superspreader events personally that were caused by fully vaxxed people.  The first was with the Delta and I've written about it before.  Family of ten people at a BBQ...the 3 with natural immunity didn't fall ill.  The remainder were all fully vaxxed, some boosted, and almost all got it...all mild except an older fully vaxxed individual (and that one never went critical).  Spread outside despite that all except the 3 with natural immunity were wearing masks.  2/3 naturally immune were also fully double vaxxed.
> 
> Second was a wedding with about 100 people in attendance with a coworker.  Everyone at least attested they were fully vaxxed (hosts didn't check vaccine cards but required everyone on the RSVP to attest they were fully vaxxed (J&J not accepted unless boosted)).  All the staff were also required to be vaxxed and supposedly checked by the vendor.  Possible an unvaxxed person slipped in despite the firewall, but patient zero was believed to be a double vaxxed individual who started feeling unwell towards the end of the reception and tested positive the next day.  A little north than fifty percent of the wedding (including the entire wedding party) came down with COVID.  Wedding was outside, reception was indoors.
> 
> And then there's the Neatherlands Christmas Party superspreader event.  It was confirmed to be an Omicron event where 70 percent of the party attendees and sixty guests and the same restaurant came down with omicron.  Because omicron is not in widespread circulation in Europe at that time, it is believed that the patient zero was an individual returning from South Africa.


The real world example many are familiar with would be the fully vaccinated household with spread amongst household members.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> You really believe it's still about the unvaccinated, unbelievable.  We have already established most testing sites never ask if you are vaccinated, testing sites are being sued and investigated in multiple states, how many with minimal symptoms even went to get tested when testing sites had 4 hour waits? So how accurate can the number really be? Just look around, how many of your vaxxed friends got covid? It is spreading to everyone, everyone, you can't recognize that???? No way it's 80/20
> 
> Watch this, an attorney defending whistle blowers from the department of defense...especially the last 45 seconds it talks.
> Another serious question...you think they are making up these numbers? or are just the numbers you see the most accurate? Because, undoubtedly the government, who supports and is pushing everyone to get vaccinated would share the truth....lol
> 
> https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/096/729/930/original/6172961f4e73ba9d.mp4


I have five friends who tested positive for covid.  Four were unvaccinated.  The fifth lives with one of the four.

So, no.  I don’t see everyone getting covid.  Not even close.

Interestingly, I see a ton of N95 masks around town and at schools.  So that may be a factor, too.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Is there any other way to visit a restaurant other than unmasked?  It would seem that it makes it difficult to eat and drink with a mask on.  Even Newsom wasn't able to do that, although he hadn't recently tested positive.


It’s different when Democrats do it


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> I don't have a problem with the ____________________, as long as they don't go out in public.
> 
> a. unvaccinated
> b. blacks
> c. gays
> d. all of the above
> 
> See how that sounds (and no I'm not accusing you of being racist or a homophope)?  You seem to equate the unvaccinated with the infected, when they're two completely separate things.  You assume the unvaccinated are lesser than the vaccinated.  That's prejudice.


Luke told a story about Jesus and the Ten Lepers.  I'll break down the Socal way of Jesus and more for 2022 and the Ten Unvaxed Deplorables. Imagine Jesus cruising down PCH between Palos Verdes and San Pedro.  As he was going into the village for a latte, Ten men who were unvaccinated came up to him, but they had to stay at a distance of six feet and wear a mask.  They all called out in a loud voice;  "Guru, have pity on us."  What did the master tell them to do?


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> *I have five friends who tested positive for covid.  Four were unvaccinated.*  The fifth lives with one of the four.
> 
> So, no.  I don’t see everyone getting covid.  Not even close.
> 
> Interestingly, I see a ton of N95 masks around town and at schools.  So that may be a factor, too.


I dont believe you.  I call you on your lie dad.  No way you have any friends who are not jabbed.  I call BS.  List of 5 contacts please so I can verify if your telling the truth.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Hypocrisy.


those filth,dirty, unkept natural immunity people..dirtying everything up.    Why are you scared of people with natural immunity?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I have five friends who tested positive for covid.  Four were unvaccinated.  The fifth lives with one of the four.
> 
> So, no.  I don’t see everyone getting covid.  Not even close.
> 
> Interestingly, I see a ton of N95 masks around town and at schools.  So that may be a factor, too.





Ellejustus said:


> I dont believe you.  I call you on your lie dad.  No way you have any friends who are not jabbed.  I call BS.  List of 5 contacts please so I can verify if your telling the truth.


I gotta agree with Crush here.  I can't imagine you hanging out with unvaccinated people and if you haven't seen them in 2 years it's hard to believe they still fit the technical definition of "friend"...unless you are talking "old friend" like a college roommate or a facebook "friend" that friends you.

In any case, while I certainly think behavior like N95s might contribute (and those most likely to be careful are probably those that are careful with their vaxxed) from the restaurant data we also know that folks in your neck of the woods are also being a little more distant.  As I've written previously, I also think there's something unique we don't fully understand about the area from Monterrey to Vancouver on the Pacific Coast which didn't undergo similar waves to Vermont or Martha's Vineyard....again, my unsubstantiated theory is that it's probably the unique weather which doesn't get overwhelmingly cold like the NE and MW did, or hot like Los Angeles (despite its tough regulations)


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  This has to be about something else bro.


Yep, fear of Covid that's what it has to do with.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I know of two superspreader events personally that were caused by fully vaxxed people.  The first was with the Delta and I've written about it before.  Family of ten people at a BBQ...the 3 with natural immunity didn't fall ill.  The remainder were all fully vaxxed, some boosted, and almost all got it...all mild except an older fully vaxxed individual (and that one never went critical).  Spread outside despite that all except the 3 with natural immunity were wearing masks.  2/3 naturally immune were also fully double vaxxed.
> 
> Second was a wedding with about 100 people in attendance with a coworker.  Everyone at least attested they were fully vaxxed (hosts didn't check vaccine cards but required everyone on the RSVP to attest they were fully vaxxed (J&J not accepted unless boosted)).  All the staff were also required to be vaxxed and supposedly checked by the vendor.  Possible an unvaxxed person slipped in despite the firewall, but patient zero was believed to be a double vaxxed individual who started feeling unwell towards the end of the reception and tested positive the next day.  A little north than fifty percent of the wedding (including the entire wedding party) came down with COVID.  Wedding was outside, reception was indoors.
> 
> And then there's the Neatherlands Christmas Party superspreader event.  It was confirmed to be an Omicron event where 70 percent of the party attendees and sixty guests and the same restaurant came down with omicron.  Because omicron is not in widespread circulation in Europe at that time, it is believed that the patient zero was an individual returning from South Africa.


Yeah but, someone who was unvaccinated had to give it to someone vaccinated before they attended the gatherings so the source of the outbreak was still an unvaccinated person.  That's just how it works.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> I have five friends who tested positive for covid.  Four were unvaccinated.  The fifth lives with one of the four.
> 
> So, no.  I don’t see everyone getting covid.  Not even close.
> 
> Interestingly, I see a ton of N95 masks around town and at schools.  So that may be a factor, too.


Yeah, seeing the same thing in my neck of the woods.  While we know more people than ever who have contracted the virus, the total number of cases in our county is nowhere near the total population.  Not even close.  So to say "it's everywhere" is a wee bit of an exaggeration and why data and math are important.  While you may think it's rampant "with your own eyes", you're probably wrong -- unless you live somewhere with a low vax rate.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Masked at the entrance, unmasked to eat or drink.


My bad, I thought the photo showed her at a table with food, I didn't realize that was the entrance.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I have five friends who tested positive for covid.  Four were unvaccinated.  The fifth lives with one of the four.
> 
> So, no.  I don’t see everyone getting covid.  Not even close.
> 
> Interestingly, I see a ton of N95 masks around town and at schools.  So that may be a factor, too.


Holy crap, what kind of filthy people do you hang out with?  I know only one family in our circle of friends or common community that aren't vaccinated, and yes some in their family have gotten Covid, I think the mom twice.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> *Yep, fear of Covid that's what it has to do with.*


Yes, on the surface and in the shallow water of life, their scared and fearful of Covid.  What is the deep reason of the fear?  Go deep with me.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah, seeing the same thing in my neck of the woods.  While we know more people than ever who have contracted the virus, the total number of cases in our county is nowhere near the total population.  Not even close.  So to say "it's everywhere" is a wee bit of an exaggeration and why data and math are important.  While you may think it's rampant "with your own eyes", you're probably wrong -- unless you live somewhere with a low vax rate.


Well looking at the data and math, San Diego County is clipping along at 15,000-16,000 "reported" cases a day (although provisional data indicates that might be coming down).  I would suspect actual cases are significantly higher.  Our previous peak prior to Omicron was 5,000 cases a day.  I would certainly consider that rampant.  It is everywhere, just not everyone is getting it, although it seems like it.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Well looking at the data and math, San Diego County is clipping along at 15,000-16,000 "reported" cases a day (although provisional data indicates that might be coming down).  I would suspect actual cases are significantly higher.  Our previous peak prior to Omicron was 5,000 cases a day.  I would certainly consider that rampant.  It is everywhere, just not everyone is getting it, although it seems like it.


What's the vax rate down there out of curiosity?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well looking at the data and math, San Diego County is clipping along at 15,000-16,000 "reported" cases a day (although provisional data indicates that might be coming down).  I would suspect actual cases are significantly higher.  Our previous peak prior to Omicron was 5,000 cases a day.  I would certainly consider that rampant.  It is everywhere, just not everyone is getting it, although it seems like it.


15K per day is about twice what we hit.  (once you adjust for pop).   No wonder you think everyone has it.  

You also have over twice our unvaccinated numbers.  We’re at 16%, you’re at 37%.  Real stats guys cab figure out whether that pattern holds up.


----------



## watfly

According to the source below SD is 93% with at least one dose and 80% fully vaccinated.  I believe you're Santa Clara?  SC is 90% and 84%, so comparable numbers.  LA is 78%/70%.  San Bernardino and Riverside are in the low to mid 60s for at least one dose and mid to high 50's for fully vaccinated.

San Diego is the 2nd highest % in the state for one dose.  Somehow Imperial County is 114%...people from Mexico I suspect, which could also be influencing SD's percentage.









						California COVID-19 Vaccine Tracker
					

This is your state and county equivalent level look at how many have gotten a dose or doses of the COVID-19 vaccine. Click on a state to see how many vaccines have been administered and you can drill down to the county level and see a bar chart that tracks the running total. Data for this...




					data.news-leader.com


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> those filth,dirty, unkept natural immunity people..dirtying everything up.    Why are you scared of people with natural immunity?


The hypocrisy is not so much Palin's -- she has a history of being clueless about important things.  The restaurant, however, supposedly required proof of vaccination to enter -- or not, if you are _important_ enough, I guess.



			COVID-19: Vaccine Key to NYC - NYC Health


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> Yes, on the surface and in the shallow water of life, their scared and fearful of Covid.  What is the deep reason of the fear?  Go deep with me.


Bro, I'm neither that smart or philosophical to go that deep.


----------



## Grace T.

A thread on the topic of vaccine transmission and omicron (how fortuitous) including a study re household transmission ....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487104218058035203


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> *Bro, I'm neither that smart or philosophical to go that deep.*


Only the "guru" in you can open the key for you be smart.   The guru will allow you to go deep.  Don;t look outside, look deep inside your heart.  Have you heard of the third eye?  Also, I read judgment in your words regarding your intelligence.  You are being too hard on yourself.  You made an agreement with little wat fly, "I am not smart"  "I can;t go deep."  Your higher judge in you told you those lies and with that, you will be what you say.  You agreed.  Actually, I think your just messing with me and you actually believe whatever you want to believe and no one is going to push you around with BS beliefs and hypocrisy.  You want the truth.  I see you as a man of integrity and willing to help folks in need.  However, you best better not make excuses with you and I respect that.


----------



## Ellejustus

Spoiler alert on another view point on forgiveness:  *"There is a deeper level to forgiveness and that is realizing there is nothing to forgive."  *
I told my old church pal this thought and he asked me not to come over any more if this is my new age belief.  People get angry and now I know it's all fear.


----------



## Ellejustus

Pray for our young men and women.  Looks like Joey is sending in the troops to protect Ukraine and all that is so important to him and Hunter and all the others.  Please pray for this President to keep us out of war but if he does start a war like Johnson, Regan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama did, I please ask us all to keep them in our hearts and thoughts.  

https://rumble.com/vtifsm-sounds-like-an-interesting-call....html


----------



## Ellejustus

*Mike Pompeo shares his weight-loss update: 'Deeply personal process' for all of us*
*A noticeably slimmer former Secretary of State talked to Fox News Digital about keeping the pounds off in a New Year — and what's driving him to stay healthy

"Make sure you do right the next day. You can't make up for the mistakes of yesterday. You can only take care of what’s in front of you." *


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> I’ve spent most of two years on the assumption that I should limit my activities because I might be able to infect others.  If restricting activity means I am prejudiced, then I am also prejudiced against me.


That's called choice.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> The hypocrisy is not so much Palin's -- she has a history of being clueless about important things.  The restaurant, however, supposedly required proof of vaccination to enter -- or not, if you are _important_ enough, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Vaccine Key to NYC - NYC Health


Ah, the old hypocrisy of hypocrisy... I'd say voting in a clown with dementia as leader of the free world clearly qualifies as "clueless about important things", no?


----------



## Soccermaverick

Grace T. said:


> A thread on the topic of vaccine transmission and omicron (how fortuitous) including a study re household transmission ....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487104218058035203


Not a virologist. Did she have her findings peer reviewed?


*Tracy Høeg, MD, PhD*
Dr. Tracy Høeg is a board certified physical medicine and rehabilitation physician, fellowship trained in Sports, Spine and Regenerative Medicine, who specializes in the treatment of a variety of sports and spine conditions and conditions that affect physical function, with the following procedures and areas of expertise including, but not limited to:


Ultrasound-guided peripheral joint injections
Ultrasound-guided tendon and ligament injections
EMG and Nerve Conduction Study
Trigger point injections
Spinal epidural injections
Spinal facet injections
Spinal facet radiofrequency ablation
Platelet rich plasma (PRP) injections
Bone marrow aspirate concentrate (BMAC) injections
Prolotherapy injections
Spinal cord injury
Brain injury
Post-stroke
Amputee care
Sports medicine
Care of endurance athletes such as ultramarathon or marathon runners, cyclists and triathletes


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> A thread on the topic of vaccine transmission and omicron (how fortuitous) including a study re household transmission ....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487104218058035203


Your thread seems to be Tracy replying to Tracy.

Let us know if she has a peer reviewed paper.  140 characters isn't really enough to evaluate anything, and I don't read Dutch.


----------



## Soccermaverick

dad4 said:


> Your thread seems to be Tracy replying to Tracy.
> 
> Let us know if she has a peer reviewed paper.  140 characters isn't really enough to evaluate anything, and I don't read Dutch.


Some people make good nazis .. she was playing this card since the beginning


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Your thread seems to be Tracy replying to Tracy.
> 
> Let us know if she has a peer reviewed paper.  140 characters isn't really enough to evaluate anything, and I don't read Dutch.


It's Danish.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> The hypocrisy is not so much Palin's -- she has a history of being clueless about important things.  The restaurant, however, supposedly required proof of vaccination to enter -- or not, if you are _important_ enough, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Vaccine Key to NYC - NYC Health


The dinner outdoors’,you may note the heat lamps in the photo.

Just fact checking your chosen sources that lead you to believe something else.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> My bad, I thought the photo showed her at a table with food, I didn't realize that was the entrance.


Lol… it actually is the entrance patio.


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> Pray for our young men and women.  Looks like Joey is sending in the troops to protect Ukraine and all that is so important to him and Hunter and all the others.  Please pray for this President to keep us out of war but if he does start a war like Johnson, Regan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama did, I please ask us all to keep them in our hearts and thoughts.
> 
> https://rumble.com/vtifsm-sounds-like-an-interesting-call....html


We should have Col Vindman lead the charge into Ukraine


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> The dinner outdoors’,you may note the heat lamps in the photo.
> 
> Just fact checking your chosen sources that lead you to believe something else.


Outdoors?  It's NYC in January.

"The manager of Elio’s restaurant told the New York Times it was investigating Palin’s Saturday visit and that the restaurant had made a “mistake”. The manager told the Times that Palin had “probably just walked in and strolled over” to a table where she joined a regular customer. "

NY Post.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/cQEx5Bo


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Outdoors?  It's NYC in January.
> 
> "The manager of Elio’s restaurant told the New York Times it was investigating Palin’s Saturday visit and that the restaurant had made a “mistake”. The manager told the Times that Palin had “probably just walked in and strolled over” to a table where she joined a regular customer. "
> 
> NY Post.


Correction -- The Guardian


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> Not a virologist. Did she have her findings peer reviewed?
> 
> 
> *Tracy Høeg, MD, PhD*
> Dr. Tracy Høeg is a board certified physical medicine and rehabilitation physician, fellowship trained in Sports, Spine and Regenerative Medicine, who specializes in the treatment of a variety of sports and spine conditions and conditions that affect physical function, with the following procedures and areas of expertise including, but not limited to:
> 
> 
> Ultrasound-guided peripheral joint injections
> Ultrasound-guided tendon and ligament injections
> EMG and Nerve Conduction Study
> Trigger point injections
> Spinal epidural injections
> Spinal facet injections
> Spinal facet radiofrequency ablation
> Platelet rich plasma (PRP) injections
> Bone marrow aspirate concentrate (BMAC) injections
> Prolotherapy injections
> Spinal cord injury
> Brain injury
> Post-stroke
> Amputee care
> Sports medicine
> Care of endurance athletes such as ultramarathon or marathon runners, cyclists and triathletes


That's funny.  You guys first of all complain about credentials but here you have both an MD and a PHD.  But she's not even the primary source (citing data and study out of Denmark).   This just goes to show you guys only love so called experts that agree with you


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Outdoors?  It's NYC in January.


Yup.  The background of the photo is the exterior of the covered patio.  There are two heat lamps in the foreground and its January.




espola said:


> "The manager of Elio’s restaurant told the New York Times it was investigating Palin’s Saturday visit and that the restaurant had made a “mistake”. The manager told the Times that Palin had “probably just walked in and strolled over” to a table where she joined a regular customer. "


However, since you made me briefly doubt my eyes.  I took a moment to double-check… looks like you are also correct, but the photo is misleading as it’s is from the second visit on Wednesday.

…just like a draw in soccer.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's funny.  You guys first of all complain about credentials but here you have both an MD and a PHD.  But she's not even the primary source (citing data and study out of Denmark).   This just goes to show you guys only love so called experts that agree with you


Does it say "0 correlation" somewhere in that Danish?


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/cQEx5Bo


Nice meme.  I’d be surprised if those that read literature would feel the same about books being banned.


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> We should have Col Vindman lead the charge into Ukraine


That guy was something else.  None of my Air Force fellas respected that dude at all.  I would have been thrown out of the military early on if that guy was over me.


----------



## N00B

Ellejustus said:


> Spoiler alert on another view point on forgiveness:  *"There is a deeper level to forgiveness and that is realizing there is nothing to forgive."  *
> I told my old church pal this thought and he asked me not to come over any more if this is my new age belief.  People get angry and now I know it's all fear.


Not really a fan of the new age approach, but hey… it’s like LA Story.

Sounds like your ‘old church pal’ took umbrage with the diminishing of god’s gift of forgiveness.  If there’s nothing to forgive, then…

Unfortunately, what you stated in bold is another way of describing Love and he didn’t get it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That's funny.  You guys first of all complain about credentials but here you have both an MD and a PHD.  But she's not even the primary source (citing data and study out of Denmark).   This just goes to show you guys only love so called experts that agree with you


The same study shows boosters linked to a huge reduction in Delta transmission.  Just look a few columns to the right of the part Tracy circled.

Should I assume that you now believe that unvaccinated transmission is responsible for  the Delta surge?


----------



## Soccermaverick

Grace T. said:


> That's funny.  You guys first of all complain about credentials but here you have both an MD and a PHD.  But she's not even the primary source (citing data and study out of Denmark).   This just goes to show you guys only love so called experts that agree with you


Experts that are trained in what they are promoting. She has been one sided the entire pandemic. No adjustments in her thinking have been made.. She has an agenda… she is comprised…



			https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF02/20210922/114054/HHRG-117-IF02-Wstate-BethHegT-20210922.pdf


----------



## Ellejustus

N00B said:


> Not really a fan of the new age approach, but hey… it’s like LA Story.
> 
> Sounds like your ‘old church pal’ took umbrage with the diminishing of god’s gift of forgiveness.  If there’s nothing to forgive, then…
> 
> Unfortunately, what you stated in bold is another way of describing Love and he didn’t get it.


It's a deep one for sure and all the Christians who think their better then the rest have much learning to do on judgement and fear.  If we start with judging thyself first to hell as the supreme judge and ruler of your life, then we will judge others to the same fate.  What's good for the Goose is good for the other.  Baby step #1 is to forgive thyself first. Once you do that, you don't need to forgive people for their wrongs.  It's all fear based salvation that is cheap grace some say. Traditional church goers who regularly attend on Sunday believe if you miss, you go to hell. Pastor and church ladies said those things when we left church for soccer on Sundays.  Seriously, some believers felt we were sending our dd to hell because we didnt go to church sometimes on the big day.  They were actually angry with us the more I think about it.  The reason?  My dd was influencer of the other kids and those kids did not want to go either.  honestly Parents forced their children to go to church through bribes and blackmail.  It's interesting to look back and see the control.  If I say to you, "Hey N00B, you're stupid."  How do you feel?  Do you agree or disagree?  If someone says, "Hey N00B, you're a sinner and your going to hell if you dont do what I say the bible says for you to do."  Do you agree?  Or, I say, "hey N00B, this is hell and your in it now." Agree?  We must agree not to believe anything anyone say's to us.  We must be are own guru through Yeshua and learn from the master.  Love is #1.  Fear is all about control.  "You better forgive me or I won;t forgive you."  That's being sore loser.  We all won already.  Were alive and can be free right now.  I am free!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Soccermaverick said:


> Not a virologist. Did she have her findings peer reviewed?
> 
> 
> *Tracy Høeg, MD, PhD*
> Dr. Tracy Høeg is a board certified physical medicine and rehabilitation physician, fellowship trained in Sports, Spine and Regenerative Medicine, who specializes in the treatment of a variety of sports and spine conditions and conditions that affect physical function, with the following procedures and areas of expertise including, but not limited to:
> 
> 
> Ultrasound-guided peripheral joint injections
> Ultrasound-guided tendon and ligament injections
> EMG and Nerve Conduction Study
> Trigger point injections
> Spinal epidural injections
> Spinal facet injections
> Spinal facet radiofrequency ablation
> Platelet rich plasma (PRP) injections
> Bone marrow aspirate concentrate (BMAC) injections
> Prolotherapy injections
> Spinal cord injury
> Brain injury
> Post-stroke
> Amputee care
> Sports medicine
> Care of endurance athletes such as ultramarathon or marathon runners, cyclists and triathletes


This is a UC Davis person I believe.  It's not her work.  She just linking it.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is a UC Davis person I believe.  It's not her work.  She just linking it.


The parts in English are her words.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/fIIv2wf


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The same study shows boosters linked to a huge reduction in Delta transmission.  Just look a few columns to the right of the part Tracy circled.
> 
> Should I assume that you now believe that unvaccinated transmission is responsible for  the Delta surge?


Unboosted transmission is in part responsible for the Delta surge. FIFY.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This is a UC Davis person I believe.  It's not her work.  She just linking it.


They don't care.  It's a religious cult to them so they'll use any argument whatsoever to tear it down and convince themselves not to listen.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> Experts that are trained in what they are promoting. She has been one sided the entire pandemic. No adjustments in her thinking have been made.. She has an agenda… she is comprised…
> 
> 
> 
> https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF02/20210922/114054/HHRG-117-IF02-Wstate-BethHegT-20210922.pdf


"Experts are trained in whaat they are promoting.  Fauci has been one sided the entire pandemic.  He's made no adjustment in his thinking.  He has an agenda....he is compromised..."

FIFY.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Unboosted transmission is in part responsible for the Delta surge. FIFY.


The rato was almost 3:1.

Then multiply in the fact that unvaccinated people are more likely to get infected in the first place.

Overall, you're talking an order of magnitude difference.  

That's well beyond "partly responsible".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The rato was almost 3:1.
> 
> Then multiply in the fact that unvaccinated people are more likely to get infected in the first place.
> 
> Overall, you're talking an order of magnitude difference.
> 
> That's well beyond "partly responsible".


Errrr....Delta wave began in India where there was no choice to remain vaccinated or unvaccinated.  It's more fitting to say if the world had been more equitable and targeted in its vaccine distribution, the Delta wave may never have arisen (or at a minimum, thousands of Indian elderly wouldn't have passed because we targeted younger people instead of sharing).

Ultimately what caused the Delta wave was a lack of vaccine availability.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errrr....Delta wave began in India where there was no choice to remain vaccinated or unvaccinated.  It's more fitting to say if the world had been more equitable and targeted in its vaccine distribution, the Delta wave may never have arisen (or at a minimum, thousands of Indian elderly wouldn't have passed because we targeted younger people instead of sharing).
> 
> Ultimately what caused the Delta wave was a lack of vaccine availability.


You're changing the topic.

I agree a faster vaccine rollout worldwide would be a good thing.  But we were talking about whether vaccine refusal in the US made it possible for Delta to grow here.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You're changing the topic.
> 
> I agree a faster vaccine rollout worldwide would be a good thing.  But we were talking about whether vaccine refusal in the US made it possible for Delta to grow here.


1. No.  You used the word "responsible".  In according responsibility, Delta arose because India had no vaccines.  If you didn't mean responsible (note you changed it to "possible for Delta to grow here" now) you should have been more careful with your wording.
2. Delta still transmitted among the double vaxxed.  If there were no boosters and everyone was double vaxxed, I think we likely still would have had a wave, it just wouldn't have been as big.  The argument, otherwise, you are making is that boosters weren't really necessary. 
3. I agree, using your own words from above, that if everyone had been boosted we likely wouldn't have gotten a Delta wave.  But that's a separate question for if we should have required kids and young men to bear the burden for society, given their higher risk for vaccine induced myocarditis.  Ultimately, you are still concerned about cases, which are meaningless to me if the vaccines put serious illness on the floor.
4. The omicron of course would have rendered all the above moot.


----------



## N00B

Ellejustus said:


> It's a deep one for sure and all the Christians who think their better then the rest have much learning to do on judgement and fear.  If we start with judging thyself first to hell as the supreme judge and ruler of your life, then we will judge others to the same fate.  What's good for the Goose is good for the other.  Baby step #1 is to forgive thyself first. Once you do that, you don't need to forgive people for their wrongs.  It's all fear based salvation that is cheap grace some say. Traditional church goers who regularly attend on Sunday believe if you miss, you go to hell. Pastor and church ladies said those things when we left church for soccer on Sundays.  Seriously, some believers felt we were sending our dd to hell because we didnt go to church sometimes on the big day.  They were actually angry with us the more I think about it.  The reason?  My dd was influencer of the other kids and those kids did not want to go either.  honestly Parents forced their children to go to church through bribes and blackmail.  It's interesting to look back and see the control.  If I say to you, "Hey N00B, you're stupid."  How do you feel?  Do you agree or disagree?  If someone says, "Hey N00B, you're a sinner and your going to hell if you dont do what I say the bible says for you to do."  Do you agree?  Or, I say, "hey N00B, this is hell and your in it now." Agree?  We must agree not to believe anything anyone say's to us.  We must be are own guru through Yeshua and learn from the master.  Love is #1.  Fear is all about control.  "You better forgive me or I won;t forgive you."  That's being sore loser.  We all won already.  Were alive and can be free right now.  I am free!!!


Self Love only works when paired with loving thy neighbor as yo.

Otherwise you’re heading back toward the LA Story genre….

Fear? Hard to have if you’re forgiven.


----------



## Ellejustus

N00B said:


> Self Love only works when paired with loving thy neighbor as yo.
> 
> Otherwise you’re heading back toward the LA Story genre….
> 
> Fear? Hard to have if you’re forgiven.


Back to the mask and Vaccine.  Crazy times we live in.  I am the light of my soul and I am beautiful, I am bliss bro and so are you.  So many kids are told mean things by the adults with fear based lives if they don't obey their orders of a free education.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. No.  You used the word "responsible".  In according responsibility, Delta arose because India had no vaccines.  If you didn't mean responsible (note you changed it to "possible for Delta to grow here" now) you should have been more careful with your wording.
> 2. Delta still transmitted among the double vaxxed.  If there were no boosters and everyone was double vaxxed, I think we likely still would have had a wave, it just wouldn't have been as big.  The argument, otherwise, you are making is that boosters weren't really necessary.
> 3. I agree, using your own words from above, that if everyone had been boosted we likely wouldn't have gotten a Delta wave.  But that's a separate question for if we should have required kids and young men to bear the burden for society, given their higher risk for vaccine induced myocarditis.  Ultimately, you are still concerned about cases, which are meaningless to me if the vaccines put serious illness on the floor.
> 4. The omicron of course would have rendered all the above moot.


Omicron hangs out in your nose, Delta goes to your lungs.  Not moot at all. 

If we all had been vaxxed and boosted, those delta wave deaths would not have happened.  The cases, if they happened at all, would only have been omicron.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> Back to the mask and Vaccine.  Crazy times we live in.  I am the light of my soul and I am beautiful, I am bliss bro and so are you.  So many kids are told mean things by the adults with fear based lives if they don't obey their orders of a free education.
> 
> View attachment 12789


Interesting stock photo.  

The kids look too young for that lesson.  Who teaches American 11 year olds how to divide by square roots?

Then look at the numbers on the board.  The decimal point is a comma, The “7” has a cross bar, and the “1” looks like a tilted ”^”.

And look at the height of the electrical outlet.

That’s a European, Russian, or Israeli class.  Picture wasn’t US at all.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Omicron hangs out in your nose, Delta goes to your lungs.  Not moot at all.
> 
> If we all had been vaxxed and boosted, those delta wave deaths would not have happened.  The cases, if they happened at all, would only have been omicron.


I think you’re on the right path.  Omicron does  hang out in your nose more than your lungs when compared to previous strains.

The rest is regurgitation of last weeks ‘science’.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Interesting stock photo.
> 
> The kids look too young for that lesson.  Who teaches American 11 year olds how to divide by square roots?
> 
> Then look at the numbers on the board.  The decimal point is a comma, The “7” has a cross bar, and the “1” looks like a tilted ”^”.
> 
> And look at the height of the electrical outlet.
> 
> That’s a European, Russian, or Israeli class.  Picture wasn’t US at all.


Certainly not a public school in CA.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Interesting stock photo.
> 
> The kids look too young for that lesson.  Who teaches American 11 year olds how to divide by square roots?
> 
> Then look at the numbers on the board.  The decimal point is a comma, The “7” has a cross bar, and the “1” looks like a tilted ”^”.
> 
> And look at the height of the electrical outlet.
> 
> That’s a European, Russian, or Israeli class.  Picture wasn’t US at all.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> They don't care.  It's a religious cult to them so they'll use any argument whatsoever to tear it down and convince themselves not to listen.


I have not been impressed with her assessments, unfortunately, at least for her Twitter feed.  She posts the swedish data stuff but doesn't really get much under the surface. Other posters have to come on and clean things up. I was looking through her site and comments for her not being aware of the literature on viral infections and diabetes were kind of ouch.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Grace T. said:


> "Experts are trained in whaat they are promoting.  Fauci has been one sided the entire pandemic.  He's made no adjustment in his thinking.  He has an agenda....he is compromised..."
> 
> FIFY.


Dr Fauci using real data vs Denmark’s agenda data.. The real issue she’s playing with kids lives… she has only her fans backing her up. Any virologist backing her up? No just her fans !
BTW Denmark has some very strict measures with Covid .. You had to have a test just to go to the market.  I was there last year in between waves… the US did not do what Denmark did to manage the virus.. if we had it might have been a different story.

Cherry Picking isn’t a methodology it’s a forum On the internet.


http://imgur.com/a/78lgiAF

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Ellejustus

This is the new math in LA dad and Espola.  2+2= 5.  Poor guy Espola made me his "super ignore" avatar because I won the debates.  I won you guys and beat the old man in basic life debate, about the meaning of life, and how "some" mean men had controlled little girls youth soccer and then used the little girls to make money off their hard work, force them ((the parents)) to buy and then wear uniforms with a logo on them so they ((the club)) can get kickback $$$$ from the logo company on the shirt that the girls have their sweat, grass stains, dirt and blood on.  Karma has hit a few already I hear and some still have to learn some hard lessons about lying and cheating little girls so dude can make all the dough.


----------



## Ellejustus

Bye bye math and the lies that comes with that subject.  It's horrible the pain & sufferings teachers cause on kids, especially to make girls feel dumb. Math is magic and can be used as a curse to make kids feel stupid and that is not how we should teach the children.  Times are changing folks.  Free yourself and free the children.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Omicron hangs out in your nose, Delta goes to your lungs.  Not moot at all.
> 
> If we all had been vaxxed and boosted, those delta wave deaths would not have happened.  The cases, if they happened at all, would only have been omicron.


1. You’d have some more young people paying the price to avoid cases (where deaths among the vaccinated already on the floor)
2. You never think globally. People still dead in the third world. Young people who aren’t at risk here in the us boosted while Indian grandmas dead all to prevent cases. Then you get omicron cases anyway
4. What you are aiming for here is ridiculous. Instead of cases what you should have wished for (because you admit omicron still happened) is that everyone vulnerable got vaxxed.


----------



## Ellejustus

Hey Dom, can you add this to the Emoji list?  For most of the men on here, it would used to show a beer belly.  However, for my NoCal fathers ((minus Kicking and Screaming, that's a beer belly for you)), you're pregnant with baby.  Dad, you get the first one when Dom adds it


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> Dr Fauci using real data vs Denmark’s agenda data.. The real issue she’s playing with kids lives… she has only her fans backing her up. Any virologist backing her up? No just her fans !
> BTW Denmark has some very strict measures with Covid .. You had to have a test just to go to the market.  I was there last year in between waves… the US did not do what Denmark did to manage the virus.. if we had it might have been a different story.
> 
> Cherry Picking isn’t a methodology it’s a forum On the internet.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/78lgiAF


[/QUOTE]

see the way evil goalie did it.  That’s a good critique. Yours is just partisan hash.  Bottom line here is fauci himself has pursued an agenda but the only difference is he has been wrong about a ton of things…everything from 15 days to slow the spread to dismissing the China lab leak to natural immunity to his own hypocritical behavior with masks to how the virus will play out.  He couldn’t have been more wrong if he actually tried. But your trolling…we get that…the 4th Mouseketeer.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Biden voter 'disgusted' with the president, says Dem party has become 'unrecognizable'*
*'I am seeing the Democratic party, I'm seeing my party, headed into the wrong direction,' said Carter*


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

Looks like Toto has had enough of HB and the State and is bailing for Florida.  Oh great, my body guard is leaving.  I am one of the last hold outs now.


----------



## Ellejustus

Add Frampton and Joni Mitchell to the list who are leaving with Neil all because of Joe.  Do you, you, fell like I do?  No Peter, no.  I rocked with you with your music bro.  You come across like a stage hand brah and I will never listen to any of your fake songs again you total fake.  I'm throwing away all your records.  Quitter and sell out you are.  Please take Howard Stern with you as well.  You guys are all fake losers and just fake rocker actors.  Too much cocaine hit these dudes.  I will show you the door now, goodbye Peter


----------



## Ellejustus

This is my new sound healing song for my soul.  Replace Neil and Peter with Mark.  I love this music.  I am a warrior for the truth.  I am prepared!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

*Espola*​**

The only cost to be free to rock, is to roll your arm up and take injection with needles.  How much coke did this guy snort?  How many hits of acid did he take? Today, this guy is not free.  He sold his soul and is doing what the father of lies is telling him to say.  Look at all these old rockers coming out with either or attitude.  Just like politics and little girls youth soccer.  The earth is changing; will you change with it and love your neighbor or listen to cocaine addicts telling you to inject Dr. Frauds, Dr. Gates and Dr. Epstein's cock tail in your veins, that they made with other Docs with human DNA, bats, dogs, monkeys and rats?  This world has gone mad.  Is this the normal you guys want back?


----------



## MicPaPa

Ellejustus said:


> Hey Dom, can you add this to the Emoji list?  For most of the men on here, it would used to show a beer belly.  However, for my NoCal fathers ((minus Kicking and Screaming, that's a beer belly for you)), you're pregnant with baby.  Dad, you get the first one when Dom adds it
> 
> View attachment 12792


This sums up the problem in our country, men not being men.


----------



## dad4

Ellejustus said:


> This is the new math in LA dad and Espola.  2+2= 5.  Poor guy Espola made me his "super ignore" avatar because I won the debates.  I won you guys and beat the old man in basic life debate, about the meaning of life, and how "some" mean men had controlled little girls youth soccer and then used the little girls to make money off their hard work, force them ((the parents)) to buy and then wear uniforms with a logo on them so they ((the club)) can get kickback $$$$ from the logo company on the shirt that the girls have their sweat, grass stains, dirt and blood on.  Karma has hit a few already I hear and some still have to learn some hard lessons about lying and cheating little girls so dude can make all the dough.
> 
> View attachment 12790


This picture is CA math all over.  Muliti-ethnic group of kids.  You have India, China, Africa, Europe, and Latin America all represented.  Lots of equations and diagrams in front of them.  Great way to be anti-racist and shrink that achievement gap!

But the kids didn’t do any of it.  It’s there above them, literally out of reach.  We’re just putting mathy things in front of them and pretending they can do it.


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> Dr Fauci using real data vs Denmark’s agenda data.. The real issue she’s playing with kids lives… she has only her fans backing her up. Any virologist backing her up? No just her fans !
> BTW Denmark has some very strict measures with Covid .. You had to have a test just to go to the market.  I was there last year in between waves… the US did not do what Denmark did to manage the virus.. if we had it might have been a different story.
> 
> Cherry Picking isn’t a methodology it’s a forum On the internet.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/78lgiAF


[/QUOTE]

Is it actually fun to post other people’s words and images as if they are your own?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> This picture is CA math all over.  Muliti-ethnic group of kids.  You have India, China, Africa, Europe, and Latin America all represented.  Lots of equations and diagrams in front of them.  Great way to be anti-racist and shrink that achievement gap!
> 
> But the kids didn’t do any of it.  It’s there above them, literally out of reach.  We’re just putting mathy things in front of them and pretending they can do it.


...and we're fucking their heads up with forced masks and fathers failing to lead and protect.


----------



## Ellejustus

MicPaPa said:


> This sums up the problem in our country, men not being men.


One of them for sure.  Plus men who lie and say their a girl, just to get into the girls bathroom and then go back to the man they are.  Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing.  I read this morning some guy saying he was girls just got out on bail for rape.  Look man, this is getting insane.  Dude in the Ivy League cheating out girls of medals is whacko.  

Go Chelsea, go.  You go girl.  

For the record, I have old pal from church days that was a hard line father with his kids when they were young.  Forced them to memorize scriptures, and forced them to go get baptized and to go church everyday.  He has two sons and a daughter named Rachel.  Rachel told mom and dad when she was 14 that she is really a he inside and wants to be free.  They prayed together and sought lot's of advice.  After years of therapy and some surgeries, Rachel is now Rick.  Rick is not trying to get in the boys bathroom for peak & a boo.  If men want to be women, find, but no sports competition against the girls and no girls only bathrooms for you.  I want everyone to be whatever they want to be.  No regulations on what a human can do to change their own bodies.  16 or older for free choice?  However, we need mandates and rules to protect the females in big time sports.  I'm shocked that this is ok in sports.  I call this what it is:  Stealing medal from women, plain and simple!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> This picture is CA math all over.  Muliti-ethnic group of kids.  You have India, China, Africa, Europe, and Latin America all represented.  Lots of equations and diagrams in front of them.  Great way to be anti-racist and shrink that achievement gap!
> 
> But the kids didn’t do any of it.  It’s there above them, literally out of reach.  We’re just putting mathy things in front of them and pretending they can do it.


No, were making girls feel stupid with magic math.  90% of females do not think with the left side of their brain dad.  That is science.  Yet, we make Math SAT Score ruin the chance of greatness for smart women, who use more of their right side of their brain.  Look man, women will help us nurture back to health.  They have the goods and so much more to offer, compared to men.  What do men really offer?  Think about it?  Look man, the men killed over 3000 witches in Scotland because the fucking King blamed them for a bad weather curse.  Salem ring a bell?  Scared little monsters killed all the good women and called them, "witches."  I told you losers that women will lead and real men will help them lead from behind. Look how men treat kids, women and the elderly dad.  Look at us.  Throw mom and dad in nursing home to die all alone because of the flu.  Look at how we treat death as a country.  I already have agreements from my wife and kids that in return of all that I have done for them, they will never, ever put me in a hospital or nursing home so they can make $$$$$.  I will die surrounded by loved ones and not fucking fear doctors and fear nurses. We all need to learn how to honor and celebrate death.  I think maybe, just maybe after you die, you come back to learn some more.  I want to ask questions with our master teachers of today but they all get pissed off when I ask a simple question.


----------



## Brav520

Ellejustus said:


> Add Frampton and Joni Mitchell to the list who are leaving with Neil all because of Joe.  Do you, you, fell like I do?  No Peter, no.  I rocked with you with your music bro.  You come across like a stage hand brah and I will never listen to any of your fake songs again you total fake.  I'm throwing away all your records.  Quitter and sell out you are.  Please take Howard Stern with you as well.  You guys are all fake losers and just fake rocker actors.  Too much cocaine hit these dudes.  I will show you the door now, goodbye Peter


Rogan is defeating the boomers


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Interesting stock photo.
> 
> The kids look too young for that lesson.  Who teaches American 11 year olds how to divide by square roots?
> 
> Then look at the numbers on the board.  The decimal point is a comma, The “7” has a cross bar, and the “1” looks like a tilted ”^”.
> 
> And look at the height of the electrical outlet.
> 
> That’s a European, Russian, or Israeli class.  Picture wasn’t US at all.











						Decimal separator - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> ...and we're fucking their heads up with forced masks and fathers failing to lead and protect.


Yeah.  Pretty much every problem in the CA educational system starts with either surgical masks or girly men who are too wimpy to duke it out over a parking space.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Rogan is defeating the boomers


No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people -- H. L. Mencken (allegedly)


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> Rogan is defeating the boomers


100%.  I went to the dog park the other day and NO ONE was wearing a mask like they did in the old days.  One dude showed up with his poodle and his mask on.  All the men looked at him and he quickly took it off and became a man with us.  It was awesome.  His dog was a show dog in the past and was amazing with his tricks.  Super cool guy and no one said anything to him.  He got the message.  Men are starting to be men again.  They have been afraid to lose their jobs and be accused of so many things these losers project unto any man seeking the truth.
Dear men of the forum, do you see yourself more like Joe or Neil?  Be honest with yourself.  We all know Espola is a Neilacon.  EJ is 100% free and wants everyone to live free.  I am a free human being, are you?  Look, if you want to snort coke, go ahead, just dont blackmail us with choice.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people -- H. L. Mencken (allegedly)





> Now we have over 120 million dead from COVID.


– Joe Biden


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> – Joe Biden


He's going all in with our young men and women in the armed forces over in Ukraine.  What is over there that Joe is after?  This is what so many of my pals voted for.  They can't even debate me any more.  They hang their heads and hide.  This is not the time to feel sorry for yourself for being wrong.  It's time to go deep and within so this never, ever happens to the nest generation.  Some evil assholes had this all planed guys.  Real math says all this is not by chance.


----------



## Brav520

Weah can’t ply tomorrow in Canada for USMNT

he has one shot and got Covid , that is considered fully vaccinated in France , but that’s not good enough for Canada


----------



## Ellejustus

Brav520 said:


> Weah can’t ply tomorrow in Canada for USMNT
> 
> he has one shot and got Covid , that is considered fully vaccinated in France , but that’s not good enough for Canada


Real men would not play and tell Canada to you know what.  It's time to walk away from the blackmail you guys.  This is bribery and blackmail in order to pay to play with your life.  Insane!!!


----------



## watfly

Ellejustus said:


> Add Frampton and Joni Mitchell to the list who are leaving with Neil all because of Joe.  Do you, you, fell like I do?  No Peter, no.  I rocked with you with your music bro.  You come across like a stage hand brah and I will never listen to any of your fake songs again you total fake.  I'm throwing away all your records.  Quitter and sell out you are.  Please take Howard Stern with you as well.  You guys are all fake losers and just fake rocker actors.  Too much cocaine hit these dudes.  I will show you the door now, goodbye Peter


I always say you need to "stand in someone else's shoes" to fully appreciate their position.  If you're a washed up geezer rocker with drug and nicotine ravaged organs you'd probably make a public spectacle against vaccine hesistancy in an attempt to protect yourself and make yourself relevant.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I always say you need to "stand in someone else's shoes" to fully appreciate their position.  If you're a washed up geezer rocker with drug and nicotine ravaged organs you'd probably make a public spectacle against vaccine hesistancy in an attempt to protect yourself and make yourself relevant.


The opposite of that is to put someone else in your shoes to rationalize their position.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> View attachment 12795
> 
> *Biden voter 'disgusted' with the president, says Dem party has become 'unrecognizable'*
> *'I am seeing the Democratic party, I'm seeing my party, headed into the wrong direction,' said Carter*


I read that. Not a good sign for the Ds.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yeah.  Pretty much every problem in the CA educational system starts with either surgical masks or girly men who are too wimpy to duke it out over a parking space.


Or people who want to cancel sports because they aren’t “inclusive enough”….


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> *Espola*​*View attachment 12798*
> 
> The only cost to be free to rock, is to roll your arm up and take injection with needles.  How much coke did this guy snort?  How many hits of acid did he take? Today, this guy is not free.  He sold his soul and is doing what the father of lies is telling him to say.  Look at all these old rockers coming out with either or attitude.  Just like politics and little girls youth soccer.  The earth is changing; will you change with it and love your neighbor or listen to cocaine addicts telling you to inject Dr. Frauds, Dr. Gates and Dr. Epstein's cock tail in your veins, that they made with other Docs with human DNA, bats, dogs, monkeys and rats?  This world has gone mad.  Is this the normal you guys want back?


I think @watfly hit at the heart of it - just a bunch of old folks wishing they were relevant. The irony is that music has often been subject to ridicule and censorship. Yet, that is the route they are taking. I suppose they have seen the light and need to impose it on others, as all good authoritarians/religious fanatics tend to do.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Weah can’t ply tomorrow in Canada for USMNT
> 
> he has one shot and got Covid , that is considered fully vaccinated in France , but that’s not good enough for Canada


#Science


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Or people who want to cancel sports because they aren’t “inclusive enough”….


Is someone upset that I didn't bow down and worship his ability to move an inflated sphere using only his feet?

Varsity athletes have no more right to facilities than any other student.  Those losers who can't make a pass and keep tripping over their feet?  They are your equal.  And they have as much a right to their game as you have to yours.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/VomJN8L


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Is someone upset that I didn't bow down and worship his ability to move an inflated sphere using only his feet?
> 
> Varsity athletes have no more right to facilities than any other student.  Those losers who can't make a pass and keep tripping over their feet?  They are your equal.  And they have as much a right to their game as you have to yours.


Odd that is just Varsity that you take issue with…..almost like there is a deeper underlying issue…hmmmmm


Do you grade your students work?   I have a theory going…,,


----------



## Ellejustus

*'Stealth' omicron variant BA.2 circulating in almost half of US, but CDC exercises caution: report*
*Is BA.2 going to be omicron 2.0?

*


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/VomJN8L


That's a new low for you EOTL.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/VomJN8L


I feel badly for her, she was my neighbor. She was used, like many others, by those with truly bad intentions, that planned and schemed to use the trump sheep to their advantage. Pushed to the front like a lamb for the slaughter. Sad, the lies of a con-man and the gullible that believed him used as battering rams for anti-government radicals bent on destruction of democracy and overjoyed to find a willing partner in the then president and his brainwashed zombies. And they persist.


----------



## Ellejustus

Mi Captain Deplorable did it again!!!BEST IN THE GAME!!!
					

Great Video made by mi Amigo Shawn Farash (Captain Deplorable) Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo




					rumble.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel badly for her, she was my neighbor. She was used, like many others, by those with truly bad intentions, that planned and schemed to use the trump sheep to their advantage. Pushed to the front like a lamb for the slaughter. Sad, the lies of a con-man and the gullible that believed him used as battering rams for anti-government radicals bent on destruction of democracy and overjoyed to find a willing partner in the then president and his brainwashed zombies. And they persist.


Did you ever meet your neighbor?   You guys are ruthless men.  Seriously, did you ever meet your Air Force neighbor that was so fooled by the elk that she was "pushed" to the front of the line to take bullet in the neck?  I went to Knotts Berry Farm as a kid and it seemed stage to me but if you really know the family down the street and feel empathy for their loss, then I stand corrected.  I honestly think your full of shit, how's that.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Is someone upset that I didn't bow down and worship his ability to move an inflated sphere using only his feet?
> 
> Varsity athletes have no more right to facilities than any other student.  Those losers who can't make a pass and keep tripping over their feet?  They are your equal.  And they have as much a right to their game as you have to yours.


Said no man ever.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Yeah.  Pretty much every problem in the CA educational system starts with either surgical masks or girly men who are too wimpy to duke it out over a parking space.


Someone's panties are in a wad.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel badly for her, she was my neighbor. She was used, like many others, by those with truly bad intentions, that planned and schemed to use the trump sheep to their advantage. Pushed to the front like a lamb for the slaughter. Sad, the lies of a con-man and the gullible that believed him used as battering rams for anti-government radicals bent on destruction of democracy and overjoyed to find a willing partner in the then president and his brainwashed zombies. And they persist.


This coming from the moron who voted for a senile old idiot, spare us the drivel. 

BTW, since your party of losers are about to get steamrolled in November, I hear calling elections rigged will be back in fashion.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I think @watfly hit at the heart of it - just a bunch of old folks wishing they were relevant. The irony is that music has often been subject to ridicule and censorship. Yet, that is the route they are taking. I suppose they have seen the light and need to impose it on others, as all good authoritarians/religious fanatics tend to do.


Its actually comical and I doubt anyone is taking their "stand" seriously.


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> Weah can’t ply tomorrow in Canada for USMNT
> 
> he has one shot and got Covid , that is considered fully vaccinated in France , but that’s not good enough for Canada


I'm pretty sure that Trudeau and Newsom were separated at birth.  Both empty suits riding the coattails of their relatives.


----------



## Ellejustus

watfly said:


> Its actually comical and I doubt anyone is taking their "stand" seriously.


Those Mother Truckers in Canada are loving each other big time.  No deliveries until vax mandate is lifting for fellow truckers nut wishing to inject. They reject forced injections.  What a trade of men and women sticking up for each other.  It's beautiful.  I wish I had my pals help me out like how the truckers love each other.  I pray some day people can see how far some took authority or else.  Jab or fired.  Mask, jab, booster or no school in some places and no college soccer.  I can;t believe this is going on and no one does anything.  I went to Spectrum.  I wanted to look inside Apple and it was mask or no entry.  Hard core.  I wanted to buy a suit for my next job interview.  Walked into a place and dude said, "sir, mask or no entry."  The vibe was gnar;y today.  For compliance or no shopping at the stores.  It's all big box sell outs so I bailed 100%.  Where is s good place where I can go and get fitted and served without a mask for a new suit?  PM me, thanks.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Odd that is just Varsity that you take issue with…..almost like there is a deeper underlying issue…hmmmmm
> 
> 
> Do you grade your students work?   I have a theory going…,,


Why would I waste my time grading the work of anyone who hasn't already gotten a 5 on the AP calc  exam?

Oh, wait.  It's a school for everyone.  Not just the top 20 kids.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Why would I waste my time grading the work of anyone who hasn't already gotten a 5 on the AP calc  exam?
> 
> Oh, wait.  It's a school for everyone.  Not just the top 20 kids.


So far the theory checks out.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So far the theory checks out.


I have no doubt that Kicker 2.0 will find Kicker 2.0's theory very convincing.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel badly for her, she was my neighbor. She was used, like many others, by those with truly bad intentions, that planned and schemed to use the trump sheep to their advantage. Pushed to the front like a lamb for the slaughter. Sad, the lies of a con-man and the gullible that believed him used as battering rams for anti-government radicals bent on destruction of democracy and overjoyed to find a willing partner in the then president and his brainwashed zombies. And they persist.


surprised you couldn’t convince  her that Trump was a Russian agent and that he liked to pee on prostitutes


----------



## Ellejustus

The time has come to decide.  Light or Dark.  Good or Bad.  Heaven or stay in Hell.   The eyes of the Creator are watching your heart and poking you big time and you know it.  No more excuses and no more hiding behind lies you guys.  Time to stop living in fear and live in love.  The gig is up. The TRUTH is coming.  The Liar will be locked up.  Be ye prepared for the great coming back party. The great return of The Christ.  The is by far the best time ever to be alive.  Clean up and get ready for the Great Banquet 

*Step #1*
"Wash and *make yourselves* clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
*stop doing wrong."

Step #2*
"Learn to do right; seek justice.
*Defend the oppressed.*
*Take up the cause of the fatherless;*
*    plead the case of the widow.*
“Come now, let us *settle the matter*,”
    says the Lord."

*Fact #1*
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
    they shall be like wool."

*Fact #2*
"If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land"

*Fact #3*
"but* if you resist and rebel,*
you will be *devoured by the sword.”

For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.  Love you guys and happy Sunday.  *


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

Wake up America!!!


----------



## Soccermaverick

Ellejustus said:


>





http://imgur.com/a/lMFtqxi


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/h6Kotah


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/WGiBtzn


----------



## Ellejustus

*Pay to Play Baby!!!  Mr. Ho reminds me of a guy I played poker against back when the sport was popular.  He hated to lose.  I play "dumb" and talk a lot at the table.  I act stupid and play like a moron early in the game....lol.  Well, I let him win a few hands and then I played serious cards and took all his money later that night night.  He was pissed off and told me never to come back again...*


----------



## Soccermaverick

Ellejustus said:


> *Pay to Play Baby!!!  Mr. Ho reminds me of a guy I played poker against back when the sport was popular.  He hated to lose.  I play "dumb" and talk a lot at the table.  I act stupid and play like a moron early in the game....lol.  Well, I let him win a few hands and then I played serious cards and took all his money later that night night.  He was pissed off and told me never to come back again...*
> 
> View attachment 12809


Try again…



http://imgur.com/a/n9E9flx


----------



## Kicker 2.0

__
		http://instagr.am/p/CZYQ_nDJi6G/


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Is someone upset that I didn't bow down and worship his ability to move an inflated sphere using only his feet?
> 
> Varsity athletes have no more right to facilities than any other student.  Those losers who can't make a pass and keep tripping over their feet?  They are your equal.  And they have as much a right to their game as you have to yours.


This explains a lot about who you are!!! Never felt included so you are now trying to make a statement. So sad


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker 2.0 said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CZYQ_nDJi6G/


Looks like the free market is working.  I actually like JRE (as much as I like Stern), but it doesn't explain why he's had Alex Jones on four times.  I do think Rogan's podcast grew faster and larger than he ever anticipated it would.  I think this video is him acknowledging that.


----------



## soccersc

This guy is the biggest hypocrite of them all.shows how distorted some of the thinking is these days. How people can support him is behind me. They must associate with liars and hypocrites. Newsom at the Rams game today. He doesn’t even try to hide it anymore…what arrogance


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> This guy is the biggest hypocrite of them all.shows how distorted some of the thinking is these days. How people can support him is behind me. They must associate with liars and hypocrites. Newsom at the Rams game today. He doesn’t even try to hide it anymore…what arrogance


I'm not a Newsom fan, but how is he a hypocrite here?


----------



## soccersc

NorCalDad said:


> I'm not a Newsom fan, but how is he a hypocrite here?


 Doesn’t look like he’s eating or drinking and he is indoors…or the open windows count as outdoors? Really he’s going to use semantics like that? He’s an example, doing stuff like that only brings scrutiny


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CZYQ_nDJi6G/


It's the first I ever heard Joe Rogan. I can appreciate that he actually takes the criticism and reflects on how he can do better. He suggests he could do a better job bringing in opposing viewpoints soon after he has guests that have controversial perspectives. Good for him. It's a shame our mainstream news media isn't more interested in presenting balanced perspectives. He's way ahead of them. Nothing to see here.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CZYQ_nDJi6G/


He comes across as likeable a reasonable and sincere guy.  What little I've seen of his show seems like people sitting around shooting the bull, which can lead to interesting conversations.  Based on his listenership that obviously has some appeal, I suspect his "bro-ness" has a certain appeal to some as well.  I don't see him has some fringe podcaster.  He could have easily said "f you, you all just need to grow a pair", instead he is pretty circumspect about the issue.  Fauci could probably learn a few things from him on how to handle criticism.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> This explains a lot about who you are!!! Never felt included so you are now trying to make a statement. So sad


Interesting theory.  I played varsity in college.

But most of my friends played IM, so I learned to value both.  It never occurred to me to say I should get fields but they should not.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Interesting theory.  I played varsity in college.
> 
> But most of my friends played IM, so I learned to value both.  It never occurred to me to say I should get fields but they should not.


haha, varsity  who calls college sports varsity? You are too much…You clearly don’t know what you are talking about


----------



## Ellejustus

soccersc said:


> haha, varsity  who calls college sports varsity? You are too much…You clearly don’t know what you are talking about


He made varsity like Kareem did as Sophomore I college.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Mask at schools or you can;t go to school.  Look at the smirk.*


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/TCiooxq


----------



## Ellejustus

*Football game for adult Elites not following the mask mandates they forced down our kids lives.  A picture is worth many words, maybe 1000? Have you had enough lies?  *


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

LOVE THAT BEAUTIFUL SOUND OF FREEDOM!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Ellejustus

Space Force followed Mules ((ballot runners)) and their cell phones on 11.3 election.  One Mule went to 52 drop box locations putting in "Mail-In" ballots for his pals on election night.  "Every vote needs to be counted."  Every legal ballot had water markers inside with tracible chip inside.  One Mule printed over 100,000 ballots from a printer.  Their was such a long line, she decided to print and vote for the people in order to save time. Problem?  Yes, these printers do not add water marker colors or a chip.  Another Mule threw all of t's votes in dumpster.  Space Force found them all because of the chip.  Come on man, you guys think our Military and t are stupid?  Oh my gosh, I forgot to tell you guys this classic end of an old college pal friendship that is no longer my friend.  He told me in our very last conversation the other day that he now supports cheating and lying in order to keep the evil t out of the White House.  Whatever it takes without bloodshed.  Only cheating and not violence.  2020 June Riots was when everyone had their phones tracked from Mr. Satellite.  They have everything you ever said fellas.  The good, bad and ugly.  Also, everything you think, they have it all.  It's a choice guys.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NorCalDad said:


> I'm not a Newsom fan, but how is he a hypocrite here?


He instituted the CA mask mandate, has mow extended it 2x’s. This requires businesses to make rules like this one from Sofi Stadium, where the picture of him and Magic was taken……


----------



## Ellejustus

*Joe Rogan breaks silence after Neil Young's Spotify controversy*

*"I am Sorry Joni & Neil."*


----------



## Ellejustus

*Canadian PM Justin Trudeau tests positive for COVID*
*The PM says he's 'feeling fine'*

"This morning, I tested positive for COVID-19. I’m feeling fine – and I’ll continue to work remotely this week while following public health guidelines. *Everyone, please get vaccinated and get boosted.*" 
I confused.  Do I get jabed and boosters so I can test positive for Covid 19?  Do I understand that correctly?


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He instituted the CA mask mandate, has mow extended it 2x’s. This requires businesses to make rules like this one from Sofi Stadium, where the picture of him and Magic was taken……


He is a complete hypocrite. Meanwhile my daughter is probably running a mile in her PE class today with a mask on. Following “the science” means damaging our children with mask mandates in school while this idiot goes to sporting event and hobnobs with the elite maskless against his own orders.


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He instituted the CA mask mandate, has mow extended it 2x’s. This requires businesses to make rules like this one from Sofi Stadium, where the picture of him and Magic was taken……


Ahhh makes sense -- For some reason I didn't realize SoFi was a dome -- shows how much I watch American Football.  Yeah not a good look at all.


----------



## Ellejustus

I want Free, Fair and Honest Elections and Free Fair and Honest society.  Who is for that?  Or, are you like my elitist pal who thinks all votes ((legal & illegal)) shall be counted and only his view of his little bubble shall be protected.  Everyone else to Mr. Elitist Snobgrass smell, are losers, won;t obey mandates and think way too much like Joe Rogan and not like Joey Bribes.


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCalDad said:


> Ahhh makes sense -- For some reason I didn't realize SoFi was a dome -- shows how much I watch American Football.  Yeah not a good look at all.


Not at all a good luck because they do this on purpose.  They are above the mandates and are hypocrites to the core.  They have stolen two years of our kids lives and have ruined small business in California.  Forcing kids to wear a mask is abuse and bullshit.  This is your fault bro and you better do something.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> He comes across as likeable a reasonable and sincere guy.  What little I've seen of his show seems like people sitting around shooting the bull, which can lead to interesting conversations.  Based on his listenership that obviously has some appeal, I suspect his "bro-ness" has a certain appeal to some as well.  I don't see him has some fringe podcaster.  He could have easily said "f you, you all just need to grow a pair", instead he is pretty circumspect about the issue.  Fauci could probably learn a few things from him on how to handle criticism.


I am thinking about the motivations for calls to censor him.

Politicians - The perceived failure of those in power who believed/still believe in "COVID 0". They need someone to blame. It reminds me a bit of what happened when Trump won and Clinton blamed it on Russia - a complete lack of accountability.

Media (News and talk shows such as Rogan's) - Many unabashedly advocate with the energy of religious zealots. For those, any thoughts to the contrary on COVID must be silenced.

Others - Irrational fear leading to poor risk assessment. When you believe Rogan's podcasts are more dangerous than censorship, that's all that needs to be said for me.

Underlying it all is a sense of those in power and their supporters that a significant portion of our population is unable to think critically and they must be protected.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am thinking about the motivations for calls to censor him.
> 
> Politicians - The perceived failure of those in power who believed/still believe in "COVID 0". They need someone to blame. It reminds me a bit of what happened when Trump won and Clinton blamed it on Russia - a complete lack of accountability.
> 
> Media (News and talk shows such as Rogan's) - Many unabashedly advocate with the energy of religious zealots. For those, any thoughts to the contrary on COVID must be silenced.
> 
> Others - Irrational fear leading to poor risk assessment. When you believe Rogan's podcasts are more dangerous than censorship, that's all that needs to be said for me.
> 
> Underlying it all is a sense of those in power and their supporters that a significant portion of our population is unable to think critically and they must be protected.


They hid behind the claims of "misinformation".   The reality is that it has nothing to with misinformation but what makes them feel uncomfortable because it doesn't fit their narrative.  I've said for a while the biggest threat to the left is an opposing opinion and this is just another perfect example.

Medical advice from Joni Mitchell, WTF?  She has s psychosis where she believes string-like objects are sprouting out of her skin and claims its an actual disease.  Maybe we need a disclaimer on her music.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> haha, varsity  who calls college sports varsity? You are too much…You clearly don’t know what you are talking about


Who calls intercollegiate sports varsity?  

Princeton, for one.  





__





						Athletics
					

Our student athletes are known for excelling in academics and sports. Princeton has 37 varsity teams for men and women. We have one of the largest and most successful athletic programs in NCAA Division I; Princeton teams have won more Ivy League championships than any other school during the...




					admission.princeton.edu
				




Ivies tend to be a little behind the times.

Happy to let you assume I don’t want to know what I’m talking about, if you prefer.


----------



## soccersc

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am thinking about the motivations for calls to censor him.
> 
> Politicians - The perceived failure of those in power who believed/still believe in "COVID 0". They need someone to blame. It reminds me a bit of what happened when Trump won and Clinton blamed it on Russia - a complete lack of accountability.
> 
> Media (News and talk shows such as Rogan's) - Many unabashedly advocate with the energy of religious zealots. For those, any thoughts to the contrary on COVID must be silenced.
> 
> Others - Irrational fear leading to poor risk assessment. When you believe Rogan's podcasts are more dangerous than censorship, that's all that needs to be said for me.
> 
> Underlying it all is a sense of those in power and their supporters that a significant portion of our population is unable to think critically and they must be protected.


The last statement you made says it all, but I think politicians are correct in making that assessment.  Most of the population is afraid to think critically and make informed decisions, they are too eager to believe what they hear and are incapable of rational thinking.  Newsoms latest, no mask ploy, shows it really doesn't matter what they do, because they know the majority of the people are going to vote for them anyway.  I am sure Newsom feels like he is above it, he did that same stuff his entire career and when it came to a recall he smashed it, it wasn't even close, clearly it isn't about what they do, but what more about what they say....and the vast majority believe them...crazy


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Who calls intercollegiate sports varsity?
> 
> Princeton, for one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athletics
> 
> 
> Our student athletes are known for excelling in academics and sports. Princeton has 37 varsity teams for men and women. We have one of the largest and most successful athletic programs in NCAA Division I; Princeton teams have won more Ivy League championships than any other school during the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> admission.princeton.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivies tend to be a little behind the times.
> 
> Happy to let you assume I don’t want to know what I’m talking about, if you prefer.


Wow, you went to Princeton...okay! If you hung around athletes you would know they don't say I played varsity soccer at UCLA...lol, I really got a laugh out of that one!!!!
You found a school that post on their website they have varsity sports...I also guarantee you the person who created and wrote that website didn't play college sports!!!
Clearly you aren't around college players, and definitely haven't played, because nobody says I play varsity "sport" in college..lolololol


----------



## EXSD007

Someone should sue NFL, Gavin and SoFi for putting law abiding citizens in danger. Where is the outrage people? Your dearly beloved flouting is own mandates, while your kid is wearing a mask! When are all you libs going to wake up?


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Wow, you went to Princeton...okay! If you hung around athletes you would know they don't say I played varsity soccer at UCLA...lol, I really got a laugh out of that one!!!!
> You found a school that post on their website they have varsity sports...*I also guarantee you the person who created and wrote that website didn't play college sports!!!*
> Clearly you aren't around college players, and definitely haven't played, because nobody says I play varsity "sport" in college..lolololol


You might not want to put too much money on that statement.  Princeton is a small school with a lot of athletes.  There is a very good chance the editor of the admissions webpage is an alum who played in college.

What you’re really saying is that schools like UCLA no longer call it varsity.  Which is true.  But not every college is like UCLA.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Wow, you went to Princeton...okay! If you hung around athletes you would know they don't say I played varsity soccer at UCLA...lol, I really got a laugh out of that one!!!!
> You found a school that post on their website they have varsity sports...I also guarantee you the person who created and wrote that website didn't play college sports!!!
> Clearly you aren't around college players, and definitely haven't played, because nobody says I play varsity "sport" in college..lolololol


Some people learned the term at Merriam/Webster college --









						Definition of VARSITY
					

the principal squad representing a university, college, school, or club especially in a sport; regular; university… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## Ellejustus

__





						Pfizer to Acquire Arena Pharmaceuticals | Pfizer
					

Proposed acquisition offers potentially new, differentiated best-in-class approach to address unmet need for a broader number of patients with immuno-inflammatory diseases Expands innovative pipeline potentially enhancing growth through 2025 and beyond Transaction valued at $100 per Arena share...




					www.pfizer.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Princeton is a small school with a lot of athletes.  There is a very good chance the editor of the admissions webpage is an alum who played in college.
> 
> What you’re really saying is that schools like UCLA no longer call it varsity.  Which is true.  But not every college is like UCLA.


1. Firstly, boo princeton.
2. But it is interesting you bring up Princeton or any Ivy.  It's an example of an institution working directly against the principles you stand for (and which BTW I'm somewhat sympathetic towards in this instance).  As you know, princeton earmarks certain admissions for preferences.  They include athletes, legacies, oppressed minorities, foreigners, and first generation college.  As you know as well, people have been complaining that the Ivies aren't a true meritocracy, since Asian candidates with higher marks have alleged they are discriminated against when these categories are used.  Princeton and the other Ivies also, despite rising population and despite an increase in applications from overseas, have not been increasing the number of their admits.  Given it's a fixed amount, and scarce resource, the fact that "princeton is a small school with a lot of athletes" is problematic.  It means a lot of top notch recruited athletes are taking away academic space from other less athletic individuals.  Those less athletic individuals won't be at Princeton to argue about intramural field access because those less athletic individuals aren't there (their space having been given preference to the recruited athletes).


----------



## NorCalDad

espola said:


> Some people learned the term at Merriam/Webster college --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of VARSITY
> 
> 
> the principal squad representing a university, college, school, or club especially in a sport; regular; university… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com


Maybe JV teams at University could help with those 40 player rosters these days.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe JV teams at University could help with those 40 player rosters these days.


Many years ago, when NCAA did not allow freshmen on varsity teams, there was an entire shadow competition among freshman teams. 

Big schools (such s Notre Dame, as famously made public in the movie Rudy) keep entire second teams for use as practice targets.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. Firstly, boo princeton.
> 2. But it is interesting you bring up Princeton or any Ivy.  It's an example of an institution working directly against the principles you stand for (and which BTW I'm somewhat sympathetic towards in this instance).  As you know, princeton earmarks certain admissions for preferences.  They include athletes, legacies, oppressed minorities, foreigners, and first generation college.  As you know as well, people have been complaining that the Ivies aren't a true meritocracy, since Asian candidates with higher marks have alleged they are discriminated against when these categories are used.  Princeton and the other Ivies also, despite rising population and despite an increase in applications from overseas, have not been increasing the number of their admits.  Given it's a fixed amount, and scarce resource, the fact that "princeton is a small school with a lot of athletes" is problematic.  It means a lot of top notch recruited athletes are taking away academic space from other less athletic individuals.  Those less athletic individuals won't be at Princeton to argue about intramural field access because those less athletic individuals aren't there (their space having been given preference to the recruited athletes).


Boo Princeton?

You're not going to bait me into some pointless argument about the relationship between the Big 3 and the lesser Ivies.


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Some people learned the term at Merriam/Webster college --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of VARSITY
> 
> 
> the principal squad representing a university, college, school, or club especially in a sport; regular; university… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com


Exactly...those that don't play probably need to look up that term


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Many years ago, when NCAA did not allow freshmen on varsity teams, there was an entire shadow competition among freshman teams.
> 
> Big schools (such s Notre Dame, as famously made public in the movie Rudy) keep entire second teams for use as practice targets.


Yes, that is true....So either you are 70/80 years old or you have never played college sports, because nobody has called it that for that for the last 20 or 30 years...I'm not just saying UCLA, I'm saying all colleges/universities...your credibility is quickly diminishing


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Yes, that is true....So either you are 70/80 years old or you have never played college sports, because nobody has called it that for that for the last 20 or 30 years...I'm not just saying UCLA, I'm saying all colleges/universities...your credibility is quickly diminishing


Nobody?









						What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
					

What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?




					www.unigo.com
				












						The Varsity Network Created for College Sports Fans Debuts with a Signature App
					

Provides an Array of Free Content, Live Gameday Audio Streams from Iconic College Brands Across the U.S.  PLANO, Texas – College sports fans – the most loyal, ardent fans in all of sports – now have access to an app called The Varsity Network. The Varsity Network conveniently brings together...




					www.learfield.com
				









						Men’s Varsity | College Squash Association
					






					csasquash.com
				












						Varsity Cycling | USA Cycling
					

Visit USA Cycling for the latest cycling news, cycling results, team USA news & much more. Sign up for our ride or race memberships now!




					usacycling.org
				









						Division I Varsity Sports
					

Holy Cross sponsors 27 varsity sports, each of which competes at the NCAA Division I level (FCS for football). The Crusaders are members of the Patriot League, the Atlantic Hockey Association and the Women's Hockey East Association.




					www.holycross.edu


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Yes, that is true....So either you are 70/80 years old or you have never played college sports, because nobody has called it that for that for the last 20 or 30 years...I'm not just saying UCLA, I'm saying all colleges/universities...your credibility is quickly diminishing


Yep.  Got it.  No real D1 athlete calls it varsity.  If I did play sports, it must not have been for a real college or university.

I am also no true Scotsman. 

That, or I graduated college 20-30 years ago, like you said.  But that’s impossible.  That would put me in my mid 40s to early 50s.  I'd be old enough to have kids in high school.  What would I be doing here?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Nobody?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.unigo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Varsity Network Created for College Sports Fans Debuts with a Signature App
> 
> 
> Provides an Array of Free Content, Live Gameday Audio Streams from Iconic College Brands Across the U.S.  PLANO, Texas – College sports fans – the most loyal, ardent fans in all of sports – now have access to an app called The Varsity Network. The Varsity Network conveniently brings together...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.learfield.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men’s Varsity | College Squash Association
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> csasquash.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Varsity Cycling | USA Cycling
> 
> 
> Visit USA Cycling for the latest cycling news, cycling results, team USA news & much more. Sign up for our ride or race memberships now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usacycling.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Division I Varsity Sports
> 
> 
> Holy Cross sponsors 27 varsity sports, each of which competes at the NCAA Division I level (FCS for football). The Crusaders are members of the Patriot League, the Atlantic Hockey Association and the Women's Hockey East Association.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.holycross.edu


When someone turns to semantics and personal attacks in an attempt soothe their own ego they have already lost.


----------



## watfly

I think the definition of varsity is a fascinating topic that needs its own thread.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> But that’s impossible.  That would put me in my mid 40s to early 50s.  I'd be old enough to have kids in high school.  What would I be doing here?


Throwing shade at @espola. Be nice to your elders.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Nobody?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.unigo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Varsity Network Created for College Sports Fans Debuts with a Signature App
> 
> 
> Provides an Array of Free Content, Live Gameday Audio Streams from Iconic College Brands Across the U.S.  PLANO, Texas – College sports fans – the most loyal, ardent fans in all of sports – now have access to an app called The Varsity Network. The Varsity Network conveniently brings together...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.learfield.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men’s Varsity | College Squash Association
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> csasquash.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Varsity Cycling | USA Cycling
> 
> 
> Visit USA Cycling for the latest cycling news, cycling results, team USA news & much more. Sign up for our ride or race memberships now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usacycling.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Division I Varsity Sports
> 
> 
> Holy Cross sponsors 27 varsity sports, each of which competes at the NCAA Division I level (FCS for football). The Crusaders are members of the Patriot League, the Atlantic Hockey Association and the Women's Hockey East Association.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.holycross.edu


You missed one.









						Watch Operation Varsity Blues: The College Admissions Scandal | Netflix Official Site
					

Reenactments drive this documentary investigating the mastermind behind a scam to get the kids of rich and famous families into top US universities.




					www.netflix.com


----------



## soccersc

watfly said:


> I think the definition of varsity is a fascinating topic that needs its own thread.





espola said:


> Nobody?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Club teams and Varsity sports?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.unigo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Varsity Network Created for College Sports Fans Debuts with a Signature App
> 
> 
> Provides an Array of Free Content, Live Gameday Audio Streams from Iconic College Brands Across the U.S.  PLANO, Texas – College sports fans – the most loyal, ardent fans in all of sports – now have access to an app called The Varsity Network. The Varsity Network conveniently brings together...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.learfield.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men’s Varsity | College Squash Association
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> csasquash.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Varsity Cycling | USA Cycling
> 
> 
> Visit USA Cycling for the latest cycling news, cycling results, team USA news & much more. Sign up for our ride or race memberships now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usacycling.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Division I Varsity Sports
> 
> 
> Holy Cross sponsors 27 varsity sports, each of which competes at the NCAA Division I level (FCS for football). The Crusaders are members of the Patriot League, the Atlantic Hockey Association and the Women's Hockey East Association.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.holycross.edu


That's too funny!!! It did bring a laugh so I appreciate that!!! I do wonder, do you just google stuff and then post it without reading what you are even posting? But to be honest, I really like the varsity squash and cycling to prove the point!! You straight nailed it home with that!!!  lol


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I think the definition of varsity is a fascinating topic that needs its own thread.


The thread titled "Vaccine" is now the repository for anyone's daily rants.  I think it's time to retire the thread, or at least admit it no longer has much relevant content.  Maybe a new OT/COVID forum thread titled "Mandates" could soak up some of the crap.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The thread titled "Vaccine" is now the repository for anyone's daily rants.  I think it's time to retire the thread, or at least admit it no longer has much relevant content.  Maybe a new OT/COVID forum thread titled "Mandates" could soak up some of the crap.


How about "potpourri" thread where we just argue about stupid shit....nevermind this thread already has that covered.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> That's too funny!!! It did bring a laugh so I appreciate that!!! I do wonder, do you just google stuff and then post it without reading what you are even posting? But to be honest, I really like the varsity squash and cycling to prove the point!! You straight nailed it home with that!!!  lol


Now tell Holy Cross, etc., that they are nobody.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> You missed one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Operation Varsity Blues: The College Admissions Scandal | Netflix Official Site
> 
> 
> Reenactments drive this documentary investigating the mastermind behind a scam to get the kids of rich and famous families into top US universities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.netflix.com


Wasn't that covered by the King of Siam?


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Now tell Holy Cross, etc., that they are nobody.


Yeah, good point.  I'm sure when players at Holy Cross are asked they undoubtedly say, yeah I play varsity basketball at Holy Cross....lol 
Thanks again, that's pretty funny


----------



## what-happened

T


espola said:


> The thread titled "Vaccine" is now the repository for anyone's daily rants.  I think it's time to retire the thread, or at least admit it no longer has much relevant content.  Maybe a new OT/COVID forum thread titled "Mandates" could soak up some of the crap.


but wait, I want to hear more about effective masking and vaccine policies for ulittles.


----------



## NorCalDad

soccersc said:


> Yeah, good point.  I'm sure when players at Holy Cross are asked they undoubtedly say, yeah I play varsity basketball at Holy Cross....lol
> Thanks again, that's pretty funny


Well I for one will now, going forward, refer to all college sports as the "varsity team" purely to irk @soccersc 

Apparently March Madness is going to have all varsity teams this year.  Should be really competitive.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/wTFAl4J


----------



## azsnowrider

NorCalDad said:


> Well I for one will now, going forward, refer to all college sports as the "varsity team" purely to irk @soccersc
> 
> Apparently March Madness is going to have all varsity teams this year.  Should be really competitive.


So just to have a little more fun and poke the bear a bit.

The official UCLA Student Athlete handbook (since UCLA was brought up) mentions Varsity 15 times. 





__





						2021.22 Handbook 9.23.21 (PDF) - UCLA
					

2021.22 Handbook 9.23.21 (PDF)




					uclabruins.com
				




Then you have the UCLA Athletic alumni association who refers to themselves as the "Bruins Varsity Club". But maybe they didn't go to UCLA otherwise they would know this, especially if they played "Varsity" sports. 





__





						The Wooden Athletic Fund | Bruin Varsity Club
					

Wooden Athletic Fund




					www.woodenathleticfund.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> The thread titled "Vaccine" is now the repository for anyone's daily rants.  I think it's time to retire the thread, or at least admit it no longer has much relevant content.  Maybe a new OT/COVID forum thread titled "Mandates" could soak up some of the crap.


It’s always been that way. Even the plumbers attempt at a non-political music video thread devolved into nono nonsense.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s always been that way. Even the plumbers attempt at a non-political music video thread devolved into nono nonsense.


I have to find that thread and put some Neil Young videos in there.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> I have to find that thread and put some Neil Young videos in there.


This is available --






1,422,844 views

Bluetooth headphones on...


----------



## kickingandscreaming

More off topic. Read Doug Glanville’s ESPN post about why Barry Bonds should never be in the Hall of Fame.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> More off topic. Read Doug Glanville’s ESPN post about why Barry Bonds should never be in the Hall of Fame.


Gaylord Perry is in.


----------



## Ellejustus

Thanks for ruining people's lives Elitist.  I see some of you guys working the angle and think you can just come back as if nothing happen.  "Time to move on from the vaccine rants and nothing to see here.  Move right a long folks."  Let me tell you, Karma is coming and some will get Millstones tied around their necks.  You dont steal two years of kids lives, kill kids, kill their parents and then ruin small business owners and steal their ability to earn a buck and tell them to go get a job.   No vax, you're fired!!!  A day of reckoning will hit some of you in the face.  I am appalled at how we can joke now about the vaccine, "hahahha, Gaylord is in,,,,,hahahahahaha, hahahahahahahah.  Sicko!!  Loser!!! Cheater!!!  Liar!!  Elitist who stole soccer from little girls so they can make the money off the girls hard work.  Liar to little girls.  Loser Espola!!!  I will NOT let any one of you off the hook until you stop or confess.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

*Look, it's an Elitist.......lol!*



*Many of you guys are actors and some will even cheat to win and will lie when caught!!  Some will see it all and say nothing and turn the cheek away, as if not to see anything.  Karma is coming if you sit their and do nothing and make jokes all day about death, people getting fired. 51% more suicide for girls.  300% more miscarriages.  Abortions, plus even more abortions.  Kiddos getting heart attacks and heart inflammation and record breaking numbers of adverse reactions that the news won;t report on the local news.  Kids forced to wear mask to school, while the Elitist watch the Rams with no mask and all we do is joke and giggle like Justin and make stupid jokes when people are dying and protesting all around the world.  This forum is full of bubble boys....lol!  Your Elitist bubble is going to pop like never before.  I think we have lot's of Justins at the forum.  You guys stole little girls youth soccer.  Think about that and let that sink into your elitist brains.  Looks like it will take the Mother Truckers & Mother Earth to save us.  The Truckers are tired and feel like the Elitist don;t give a shot about them.  *


----------



## Ellejustus

Keep on Rockin in the free world as long as you obey!!!!  Pear Jam@@@


----------



## Desert Hound

This article is worth a read.

Talks about the 180 degree turnabout many had regarding a variety of issues regarding covid.

_"By January 2022, however, *the failure of the previous two years of U.S. COVID policies has become undeniable*. Vaccinated people were once promised that they would be “dead ends” for the virus, but 80% of the first omicron cases in the United States were double vaccinated and one-third had received a booster. Many cities that implemented mask mandates and vaccine passports are seeing some of their highest case counts of the pandemic. *As a result, the original justifications for COVID restrictions are now being openly contradicted by the same people who once argued for them—but without acknowledging the pivot.* With the 2022 midterms in sight, the narrative is simply shifting without apology, and many of the arguments once made by “covidiots” are now being backed by Anthony Fauci, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, and the familiar cast of journalists and experts."









						COVID Affects Your Memory
					

Masks have never worked. Testing has always been problematic. Kids were never high-risk. The past has never been altered. Welcome to the COVID consensus, circa midterms 2022.




					www.tabletmag.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

Talking about Rogan and the left which increasingly likes to censor people...a good read.

_For years, their preferred censorship tactic was to *expand and distort the concept of "hate speech” to mean "views that make us uncomfortable,”* and then demand that such “hateful” views be prohibited on that basis. For that reason, it is now common to hear Democrats assert, falsely, that the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech does not protect “hate speech." Their political culture has long inculcated them *to believe that they can comfortably silence whatever views they arbitrarily place into this category without being guilty of censorship*.

-

The data proving a deeply radical authoritarian strain in Trump-era Democratic Party politics is ample and have been extensively reported here. Democrats overwhelmingly trust and love the FBI and CIA. Polls show they overwhelmingly favor censorship of the internet not only by Big Tech oligarchs but also by the state. Leading Democratic Party politicians have repeatedly subpoenaed social media executives and explicitly threatened them with legal and regulatory reprisals if they do not censor more aggressively — a likely violation of the First Amendment given decades of case law ruling that state officials are barred from coercing private actors to censor for them, in ways the Constitution prohibits them from doing directly.
--

And when it comes to authoritarian tactics, censorship has become the liberals’ North Star. Every week brings news of a newly banished heretic. Liberals cheered the news last week that Google's YouTube permanently banned the extremely popular video channel of conservative commentator Dan Bongino. His permanent ban was imposed for the crime of announcing that, moving forward, he would post all of his videos exclusively on the free speech video platform Rumble after he received a seven-day suspension from Google's overlords for spreading supposed COVID “disinformation.”* What was Bongino's prohibited view that prompted that suspension? He claimed cloth masks do not work to stop the spread of COVID, a view shared by numerous experts and, at least in part, by the CDC.

--*

It is not hyperbole to observe that there is now a concerted war on any platforms devoted to free discourse and which refuse to capitulate to the demands of Democratic politicians and liberal activists to censor. The spear of the attack are corporate media outlets, who demonize and try to render radioactive any platforms that allow free speech to flourish._










						The Pressure Campaign on Spotify to Remove Joe Rogan Reveals the Religion of Liberals: Censorship
					

All factions, at certain points, succumb to the impulse to censor. But for the Democratic Party's liberal adherents, silencing their adversaries has become their primary project.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This article is worth a read.
> 
> Talks about the 180 degree turnabout many had regarding a variety of issues regarding covid.
> 
> _"By January 2022, however, *the failure of the previous two years of U.S. COVID policies has become undeniable*. Vaccinated people were once promised that they would be “dead ends” for the virus, but 80% of the first omicron cases in the United States were double vaccinated and one-third had received a booster. Many cities that implemented mask mandates and vaccine passports are seeing some of their highest case counts of the pandemic. *As a result, the original justifications for COVID restrictions are now being openly contradicted by the same people who once argued for them—but without acknowledging the pivot.* With the 2022 midterms in sight, the narrative is simply shifting without apology, and many of the arguments once made by “covidiots” are now being backed by Anthony Fauci, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, and the familiar cast of journalists and experts."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Affects Your Memory
> 
> 
> Masks have never worked. Testing has always been problematic. Kids were never high-risk. The past has never been altered. Welcome to the COVID consensus, circa midterms 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tabletmag.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


This is just the beginning. People are just starting to examine the data as it becomes available - especially as it relates to children. Also, as things return toward a more normal life, people who have been irrationally fearful will reflect with a clearer perspective. Credibility's loss is division's gain.

The media also played a pivotal role in exaggerating COVID dangers for children, obfuscating age-related risk stratification, and portraying kids as superspreaders. Now that school closures are proving to be increasingly unpopular among voters in blue areas, outlets like The New York Times have started reporting on the harms caused by them. But it was many of the same media outlets that spent two years advocating for the necessity of closures, giving ammunition to teachers and administrators intent on keeping kids at home. The Los Angeles Times ran a story in January 2021 about children “apologizing” to their elderly relatives for spreading COVID, and The New York Times published an article claiming COVID would “soar” if schools were allowed to reopen.

Other reports from the paper of record claimed that babies were “especially vulnerable” (March 2020), that it was risky for children to play together (June 2020), that children under 5 may host up to “100 times as much of the virus in the upper respiratory tract as adults” (July 2020), that virtual learning provided Black families a relief from racism (October 2020), and quoted teachers who said that teaching in-person was like being offered as “tribute” in The Hunger Games (November 2020). Over and over again, the Times published terrifying stories about “disturbing,” “mysterious” symptoms of an extremely rare inflammatory condition in children, stoking anxiety about new and unknown threats to kids without providing context.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Anyone else remember the campaign to shut down all Sports because of the Covid Myocarditis concerns?  

Now that concern is minimized when it comes to Myocarditis as a side effect of the vaccine.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is just the beginning. People are just starting to examine the data as it becomes available - especially as it relates to children. Also, as things return toward a more normal life, people who have been irrationally fearful will reflect with a clearer perspective. Credibility's loss is division's gain.
> 
> The media also played a pivotal role in exaggerating COVID dangers for children, obfuscating age-related risk stratification, and portraying kids as superspreaders. Now that school closures are proving to be increasingly unpopular among voters in blue areas, outlets like The New York Times have started reporting on the harms caused by them. But it was many of the same media outlets that spent two years advocating for the necessity of closures, giving ammunition to teachers and administrators intent on keeping kids at home. The Los Angeles Times ran a story in January 2021 about children “apologizing” to their elderly relatives for spreading COVID, and The New York Times published an article claiming COVID would “soar” if schools were allowed to reopen.
> 
> Other reports from the paper of record claimed that babies were “especially vulnerable” (March 2020), that it was risky for children to play together (June 2020), that children under 5 may host up to “100 times as much of the virus in the upper respiratory tract as adults” (July 2020), that virtual learning provided Black families a relief from racism (October 2020), and quoted teachers who said that teaching in-person was like being offered as “tribute” in The Hunger Games (November 2020). Over and over again, the Times published terrifying stories about “disturbing,” “mysterious” symptoms of an extremely rare inflammatory condition in children, stoking anxiety about new and unknown threats to kids without providing context.


It's going to get ugly bro before it's better.  Pray if you can or think positives for the Universe to "make love out of nothing at all."  We need a love miracle asap.  Love you bro


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> It's going to get ugly bro before it's better.  Pray if you can or think positives for the Universe to "make love out of nothing at all."  We need a love miracle asap.  Love you bro


Air Supply? "make love out of nothing at all."

Ha! It's already ugly, Crush! I agree that it will get uglier before it gets better. If the upcoming midterms go in the direction they appear to be going now, it will cause a new wave of mental health issues greater than the one when Trump was elected. I did a quick search and while the link below is dated, I will be taking a look at investing in this space. I'm probably late but see great potential for future growth. 









						The Top 5 Mental Health Startups of 2020 | The Motley Fool
					

These five mental health startups offer apps and online services for one-on-one counseling, meditation, mindfulness, and more.




					www.fool.com


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> This is available --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1,422,844 views
> 
> Bluetooth headphones on...


Kinda like the Espolas neighborhood should be retarded...oops. 



“Amazon, Apple Music, and Qobuz deliver up to 100% of the music today and it sounds a lot better than the shitty, degraded and neutered sound of Spotify,” he wrote. “If you support Spotify, you are destroying an art form. Business over art. Spotify plays the artists’s music at 5% of its quality and charges you like it was the real thing.” Neil Young.

..your boy Neil is a hypocrite.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is just the beginning. People are just starting to examine the data as it becomes available - especially as it relates to children. Also, as things return toward a more normal life, people who have been irrationally fearful will reflect with a clearer perspective. Credibility's loss is division's gain.
> 
> The media also played a pivotal role in exaggerating COVID dangers for children, obfuscating age-related risk stratification, and portraying kids as superspreaders. Now that school closures are proving to be increasingly unpopular among voters in blue areas, outlets like The New York Times have started reporting on the harms caused by them. But it was many of the same media outlets that spent two years advocating for the necessity of closures, giving ammunition to teachers and administrators intent on keeping kids at home. The Los Angeles Times ran a story in January 2021 about children “apologizing” to their elderly relatives for spreading COVID, and The New York Times published an article claiming COVID would “soar” if schools were allowed to reopen.
> 
> Other reports from the paper of record claimed that babies were “especially vulnerable” (March 2020), that it was risky for children to play together (June 2020), that children under 5 may host up to “100 times as much of the virus in the upper respiratory tract as adults” (July 2020), that virtual learning provided Black families a relief from racism (October 2020), and quoted teachers who said that teaching in-person was like being offered as “tribute” in The Hunger Games (November 2020). Over and over again, the Times published terrifying stories about “disturbing,” “mysterious” symptoms of an extremely rare inflammatory condition in children, stoking anxiety about new and unknown threats to kids without providing context.


Especially disturbing in light of what's happening with Pfizer and the under   Looks like the powers that be will rush through the under 5 EU application even thought the results from a 2 dose vaccine were less than spectacular in terms of antibody response, there's no extensive study on efficacy, and a 3 dose is still under investigation.  What's more disturbing is that if the FDA gives the go ahead, several jurisdictions might very well try to mandate it then for day care even though the studying on this has been rushed and inconclusive.









						Covid: Pfizer jab for children under five expected by end of month
					

Pfizer is to ask US vaccine regulators to authorise two doses for the age group.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Anyone else remember the campaign to shut down all Sports because of the Covid Myocarditis concerns?
> 
> Now that concern is minimized when it comes to Myocarditis as a side effect of the vaccine.


Consistency has never been a virtue of those in control.  Consistency is a threat to their power.


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Kinda like the Espolas neighborhood should be retarded...oops.
> 
> 
> 
> “Amazon, Apple Music, and Qobuz deliver up to 100% of the music today and it sounds a lot better than the shitty, degraded and neutered sound of Spotify,” he wrote. “If you support Spotify, you are destroying an art form. Business over art. Spotify plays the artists’s music at 5% of its quality and charges you like it was the real thing.” Neil Young.
> 
> ..your boy Neil is a hypocrite.











						Spotify’s High-Quality Audio Tier Delayed Indefinitely
					

Spotify has announced that its high-quality audio tier, Spotify HiFi, which it had said would launch in select markets in November, is delayed indefinitely. Responding to a thread on its Community …




					variety.com


----------



## espola

espola said:


> This is available --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1,422,844 views
> 
> Bluetooth headphones on...


1,429,132 views today.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> 1,429,132 views AS OF today.


Fixed it for you…that number isn’t a daily total, it’s a cumulative number.  So 1.4m views since uploaded 11 months ago….not that impressive.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> 1,429,132 views today.


More to the point, Rogan is publicly accepting the fact that a host has an editorial responsibility.

You don’t just build a platform and amplify the voice of anyone and everyone who wants to be heard.   Because, if you do, you’re going to get blamed for what they say.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> More to the point, Rogan is publicly accepting the fact that a host has an editorial responsibility.
> 
> You don’t just build a platform and amplify the voice of anyone and everyone who wants to be heard.   Because, if you do, you’re going to get blamed for what they say.


Kinda hard to make out that case when Whoopi Goldberg is being protected despite saying the Nazis weren't white supremacists and saying the Nazis weren't racist because Jewish people are white.  Then she doubles down on Colbert and issues only a half apology.  If you are going to hold Rogan to account for what his guests might say (so far as far as I'm aware the responsibility he's taken is for not offering more balanced views, debate, and better questioning), you have to hold Goldberg to account for doing something far worse.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Kinda hard to make out that case when Whoopi Goldberg is being protected despite saying the Nazis weren't white supremacists and saying the Nazis weren't racist because Jewish people are white.  Then she doubles down on Colbert and issues only a half apology.  If you are going to hold Rogan to account for what his guests might say (so far as far as I'm aware the responsibility he's taken is for not offering more balanced views, debate, and better questioning), you have to hold Goldberg to account for doing something far worse.


I believe Whoopi gets @dad4's the "She believes in wearing masks" exception.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Fixed it for you…that number isn’t a daily total, it’s a cumulative number.  So 1.4m views since uploaded 11 months ago….not that impressive.


Everyone knows that.  The point was how much the total increased day to day.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> More to the point, Rogan is publicly accepting the fact that a host has an editorial responsibility.
> 
> You don’t just build a platform and amplify the voice of anyone and everyone who wants to be heard.   Because, if you do, you’re going to get blamed for what they say.


This whole mess has caused Spotify to modify its policies, so that's a good thing.  Not many artists are in Young's position (money in the bank after selling 50% of his catalog for $150 million not long ago, and good income from other sources), so not many can afford to give it up.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Kinda hard to make out that case when Whoopi Goldberg is being protected despite saying the Nazis weren't white supremacists and saying the Nazis weren't racist because Jewish people are white.  Then she doubles down on Colbert and issues only a half apology.  If you are going to hold Rogan to account for what his guests might say (so far as far as I'm aware the responsibility he's taken is for not offering more balanced views, debate, and better questioning), you have to hold Goldberg to account for doing something far worse.


It's hard to think of another way to piss off both Jews and Nazis in one breath.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Kinda hard to make out that case when Whoopi Goldberg is being protected despite saying the Nazis weren't white supremacists and saying the Nazis weren't racist because Jewish people are white.  Then she doubles down on Colbert and issues only a half apology.  If you are going to hold Rogan to account for what his guests might say (so far as far as I'm aware the responsibility he's taken is for not offering more balanced views, debate, and better questioning), you have to hold Goldberg to account for doing something far worse.


Who here is protecting Whoopi?  What does Whoopi have to do with Rogan?  More importantly, who here actually watches The View?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Here's some good news from Denver.









						Denver's Mask Mandate Expires Thursday Night: COVID Cases 'Dropping Very, Very, Quickly'
					

Denver's mask mandate will be allowed to expire this week, Mayor Michael Hancock announced during a news conference Monday.




					denver.cbslocal.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Anyone else remember the campaign to shut down all Sports because of the Covid Myocarditis concerns?
> 
> Now that concern is minimized when it comes to Myocarditis as a side effect of the vaccine.


I do. And there is one person still on this forum that...

When talks about sports re-opening was very concerned about myocarditis. 

Today? When there are talks about myocarditis related to the vaxx dismisses it.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Who here is protecting Whoopi?  What does Whoopi have to do with Rogan?  More importantly, who here actually watches The View?


Dad4's position was a host can and should be held accountable for the statement of his guests because the host is acting as an editor.

Whoopi Goldberg has not (yet....though we should probably start a pool) been held accountable for comments which are far worse which she herself has made.  Neither has Colbert....who allowed Whoopi on the show where such statements were also uttered.

Makes some of us think that the thing some of you mean is that, according to my handy dandy Orwellian translator, "people who disagree with me or who allow others on their show that disagree with me should be punished because they are fringe, but people who agree with me or who allow others on their show that agree with me should be excused if they utter a mea culpa because they are on the side of truth and justice"

Otherwise:
1. Do you believe that Rogan's content needs to be policed better?
2. If so, no doubt Whoopi Goldberg needs to be punished (by at least a suspension if she gives a true apology, otherwise a dismissal)?
and 3. No doubt Colbert needs to be subjected to the same punishment for not exercising editorial discretion and allowing her to utter the same on his show?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Dad4's position was a host can and should be held accountable for the statement of his guests because the host is acting as an editor.
> 
> Whoopi Goldberg has not (yet....though we should probably start a pool) been held accountable for comments which are far worse which she herself has made.  Neither has Colbert....who allowed Whoopi on the show where such statements were also uttered.
> 
> Makes some of us think that the thing some of you mean is that, according to my handy dandy Orwellian translator, "people who disagree with me or who allow others on their show that disagree with me should be punished because they are fringe, but people who agree with me or who allow others on their show that agree with me should be excused if they utter a mea culpa because they are on the side of truth and justice"
> 
> Otherwise:
> 1. Do you believe that Rogan's content needs to be policed better?
> 2. If so, no doubt Whoopi Goldberg needs to be punished (by at least a suspension if she gives a true apology, otherwise a dismissal)?
> and 3. No doubt Colbert needs to be subjected to the same punishment for not exercising editorial discretion and allowing her to utter the same on his show?


But that would be holding everyone to the same standard and that’s not fair!   ****sarcasm*****


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Who here is protecting Whoopi?  What does Whoopi have to do with Rogan?  More importantly, who here actually watches The View?


I was gonna say . . . I mean really, how is Whoopi relevant?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Dad4's position was a host can and should be held accountable for the statement of his guests because the host is acting as an editor.
> 
> Whoopi Goldberg has not (yet....though we should probably start a pool) been held accountable for comments which are far worse which she herself has made.  Neither has Colbert....who allowed Whoopi on the show where such statements were also uttered.
> 
> Makes some of us think that the thing some of you mean is that, according to my handy dandy Orwellian translator, "people who disagree with me or who allow others on their show that disagree with me should be punished because they are fringe, but people who agree with me or who allow others on their show that agree with me should be excused if they utter a mea culpa because they are on the side of truth and justice"
> 
> Otherwise:
> 1. Do you believe that Rogan's content needs to be policed better?
> 2. If so, no doubt Whoopi Goldberg needs to be punished (by at least a suspension if she gives a true apology, otherwise a dismissal)?
> and 3. No doubt Colbert needs to be subjected to the same punishment for not exercising editorial discretion and allowing her to utter the same on his show?


Is Whoopi’s opinion killing people?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> But that would be holding everyone to the same standard and that’s not fair!   ****sarcasm*****


Attempts at deflection aside . . .


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is Whoopi’s opinion killing people?


It's making light of the worst massacre in human history where millions of people lost their loved ones and which unlike COVID was entirely avoidable. What are you some kind of Nazi???  Do you hate Jewish people???  You a racist?????  You seriously saying the holocaust was no big deal???????????


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Attempts at deflection aside . . .


Oh please. Do continue


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is Whoopi’s opinion killing people?


Opinions kill people now?   This aught to be good.  
Let me go get some popcorn cause this will be entertaining!!!


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is Whoopi’s opinion killing people?


Nope, just killing people's brain cells.  Are Rogan's guests' opinions killing people?  No more than car salesmen are killing people I would suspect.

Whoopi's comments didn't offend me, I don't even think they were that racist. Ignorant and stupid, 100% yes.  How about we just let these talking heads say whatever they want instead of holding them to a particular narrative and cancelling them if they go astray.  Let the public decide to turn the channel.  I think that's what we call free speech.

Why, as a society do we have always have to be outraged about what someone said?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Nope, just killing people's brain cells.  Are Rogan's guests' opinions killing people?  No more than car salesmen are killing people I would suspect.
> 
> Whoopi's comments didn't offend me, I don't even think they were that racist. Ignorant and stupid, 100% yes.  How about we just let these talking heads say whatever they want instead of holding them to a particular narrative and cancelling them if they go astray.  Let the public decide to turn the channel.  I think that's what we call free speech.


Are you saying Covid misinformation is harmless?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> It's making light of the worst massacre in human history where millions of people lost their loved ones and which unlike COVID was entirely avoidable. What are you some kind of Nazi???  Do you hate Jewish people???  You a racist?????  You seriously saying the holocaust was no big deal???????????


My sarcasm detector just went off!

Are you saying Covid misinformation is harmless?

. . . but antisemitism is harmful? You ever go to a trump rally?


----------



## Desert Hound

Now while people bitch about Rogan...

Here is a story about a top Wash Post reporter.

She has been reporting on the FBI, matters related to the Clintons, etc.

All while her husband works for the FBI and has dealing with the Clintons.

So partisan reporting going on. The post knew about it, but did nothing.

Happens all the time.

But Rogan.....!!!!









						Conflict of Interest: New Washington Post National Editor Recused From FBI Coverage
					

The Washington Post has recused its new national editor, Matea Gold, from the news organization’s coverage of the FBI and Justice Department over a personal conflict of interest. A month before




					www.realclearinvestigations.com


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Dad4's position was a host can and should be held accountable for the statement of his guests because the host is acting as an editor.
> 
> Whoopi Goldberg has not (yet....though we should probably start a pool) been held accountable for comments which are far worse which she herself has made.  Neither has Colbert....who allowed Whoopi on the show where such statements were also uttered.
> 
> Makes some of us think that the thing some of you mean is that, according to my handy dandy Orwellian translator, "people who disagree with me or who allow others on their show that disagree with me should be punished because they are fringe, but people who agree with me or who allow others on their show that agree with me should be excused if they utter a mea culpa because they are on the side of truth and justice"
> 
> Otherwise:
> 1. Do you believe that Rogan's content needs to be policed better?
> 2. If so, no doubt Whoopi Goldberg needs to be punished (by at least a suspension if she gives a true apology, otherwise a dismissal)?
> and 3. No doubt Colbert needs to be subjected to the same punishment for not exercising editorial discretion and allowing her to utter the same on his show?


The way you argue is so incredibly strange.  What makes you think @dad4 is willing to give Whoopi a free pass?  You do this regularly.  You deflect the conversation with the hopes that that deflection will somehow sow seeds of doubt in the original discussion.  It's just a really weird way to argue things.  Whoopi has nothing to do with Joe Rogan.  If you want to discuss Whoopi, bring it up separately.  I for one would stop watching The View if I did and hope that she would be held accountable.  I'm sure the pressure will continue to come her way and we will eventually see a faux public apology.  I mean Rogan would've never apologized or put out that video had it not been for the pressure put on Spotify.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> My sarcasm detector just went off!
> 
> Are you saying Covid misinformation is harmless?
> 
> . . . but antisemitism is harmful? You ever go to a trump rally?


Aren't you all the ones that are always saying racism is the worst and most evil thing ever?

Does that mean now that cloth masks have been proven to be worthless (I believe the words used being bandied about are "facial decorations") we can throw dad4 in the gulag for having spread COVID misinformation?

All I'm saying is that you got to treat it all the same.  Either it's all o.k. or none of it is.  Whoopi spread outright Holocaust misinformation.  Colbert let her.  Either you hold the 2 to the same standard and we can have a rational discussion about whether these standards are even warranted, or you can shut your hypocritical cakehole because you've undermined your entire credibility about having a rational discussion about it.

p.s. I'm sure there are examples of antisemitic conduct at Trump rallies (again, not a Trump fan).  I do point out Ivanka and Jared (also not my favorite people) are Jewish.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> The way you argue is so incredibly strange.  What makes you think @dad4 is willing to give Whoopi a free pass?  You do this regularly.  You deflect the conversation with the hopes that that deflection will somehow sow seeds of doubt in the original discussion.  It's just a really weird way to argue things.  Whoopi has nothing to do with Joe Rogan.  If you want to discuss Whoopi, bring it up separately.  I for one would stop watching The View if I did and hope that she would be held accountable.  I'm sure the pressure will continue to come her way and we will eventually see a faux public apology.  I mean Rogan would've never apologized or put out that video had it not been for the pressure put on Spotify.


Me?  You are the one that always bemoans a lack of balance and the partisanship?  

I'm just calling for things to be treated equitably under the same standard.  My preference would be for Whoopi/Colbert/Rogan to be allowed to do whatever they want in the open spirit of leaving it all out there and having people make up their own mind.  But if you are going to go after one, you have to go against the other.  You cannot in good conscience campaign to cancel Rogan, but leave Whoopi and Colbert off the hook, particularly if dad4's editorial standard is the one to be exercised.

Or as South Park so famously put it: "it's either all o.k., or none of it is."


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Dad4's position was a host can and should be held accountable for the statement of his guests because the host is acting as an editor.
> 
> Whoopi Goldberg has not (yet....though we should probably start a pool) been held accountable for comments which are far worse which she herself has made.  Neither has Colbert....who allowed Whoopi on the show where such statements were also uttered.
> 
> Makes some of us think that the thing some of you mean is that, according to my handy dandy Orwellian translator, "people who disagree with me or who allow others on their show that disagree with me should be punished because they are fringe, but people who agree with me or who allow others on their show that agree with me should be excused if they utter a mea culpa because they are on the side of truth and justice"
> 
> Otherwise:
> 1. Do you believe that Rogan's content needs to be policed better?
> 2. If so, no doubt Whoopi Goldberg needs to be punished (by at least a suspension if she gives a true apology, otherwise a dismissal)?
> and 3. No doubt Colbert needs to be subjected to the same punishment for not exercising editorial discretion and allowing her to utter the same on his show?


Nice to see that so many people are telling me what my opinion is.

Grace got it right.  Part of the job of a host is to exercise editorial judgement when selecting guests.  If you are the host, you are actively choosing which voices to raise.

If you fail to exercise that judgment, then you are not being a very good host.  Both Rogan and Colbert deserve criticism on this.

Goldberg is in a completely different category.  She is no longer fit to be the host of a show.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Aren't you all the ones that are always saying racism is the worst and most evil thing ever?
> 
> Does that mean now that cloth masks have been proven to be worthless (I believe the words used being bandied about are "facial decorations") we can throw dad4 in the gulag for having spread COVID misinformation?
> 
> All I'm saying is that you got to treat it all the same.  Either it's all o.k. or none of it is.  Whoopi spread outright Holocaust misinformation.  Colbert let her.  Either you hold the 2 to the same standard and we can have a rational discussion about whether these standards are even warranted, or you can shut your hypocritical cakehole because you've undermined your entire credibility about having a rational discussion about it.
> 
> p.s. I'm sure there are examples of antisemitic conduct at Trump rallies (again, not a Trump fan).  I do point out Ivanka and Jared (also not my favorite people) are Jewish.


So you roll right into what Norcaldad pointed out as your debate strategy? Lol! As if to exemplify it! 

trump, although history shows otherwise, isn’t necessarily a racist, but uses it/them for his own devices. His adoring base basically ignores/disregards everything trump about trump and project upon him what they want him to be.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> The way you argue is so incredibly strange.  What makes you think @dad4 is willing to give Whoopi a free pass?  You do this regularly.  You deflect the conversation with the hopes that that deflection will somehow sow seeds of doubt in the original discussion.  It's just a really weird way to argue things.  Whoopi has nothing to do with Joe Rogan.  If you want to discuss Whoopi, bring it up separately.  I for one would stop watching The View if I did and hope that she would be held accountable.  I'm sure the pressure will continue to come her way and we will eventually see a faux public apology.  I mean Rogan would've never apologized or put out that video had it not been for the pressure put on Spotify.


p.s. under the editorial standard dad 4 laid out, it's not so much Whoopi (who by definition since she herself engaged in misinformation would be cancellable) who is the subject of controversy.  By definition under his standard Whoopi, we should all agree, should be cancelled.  The relevant person is Colbert, who allowed her to make such statements, and the View, assuming they don't punish Whoopi, given their editorial control.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nice to see that so many people are telling me what my opinion is.
> 
> Grace got it right.  Part of the job of a host is to exercise editorial judgement when selecting guests.  If you are the host, you are actively choosing which voices to raise.
> 
> If you fail to exercise that judgment, then you are not being a very good host.  Both Rogan and Colbert deserve criticism on this.
> 
> Goldberg is in a completely different category.  She is no longer fit to be the host of a show.


While I disagree with you on the outcome, I do appreciate and admire your consistency.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you roll right into what Norcaldad pointed out as your debate strategy? Lol! As if to exemplify it!
> 
> trump, although history shows otherwise, isn’t necessarily a racist, but uses it/them for his own devices. His adoring base basically ignores/disregards everything trump about trump and project upon him what they want him to be.


Errr....it's a technique commonly used as part of the socratic method, which they rang me through the ringer in law school with, and which I myself employed when teaching.

As to your Trump critique, I'd say it's a fair point.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Errr....it's a technique commonly used as part of the socratic method, which they rang me through the ringer in law school with, and which I myself employed when teaching.
> 
> As to your Trump critique, I'd say it's a fair point.


Typical Socratic argument:

Noob: You should make your own arguments, not just put words in other people’s mouths.
Plato: But the words stand on their own, do they not?
Noob: Why, yes Plato, thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.
Plato: And the words speak for themselves even better when I get to write both sides of the conversation, correct?
Noob: Well said, yet again.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you saying Covid misinformation is harmless?


Nope.  But something that makes you uncomfortable isn't necessarily misinformation.  We're subject to opinions, exaggeration, hyperbole, incomplete information, false statements, etc on a daily basis.  That information comes from all sides regardless of political leanings, race, gender, age etc.   It's your job to sort out that information and determine what you should believe.

Like Rogan said today's misinformation may be tomorrow's truth.  Just because a majority, or the most vocal, believe something is true doesn't make it true, and when the majority gets to decide what is true that's called authoritarian control. (Look up the B.I.T.E. model).

Whether the misinformation is in an abundance of caution or potentially increases risk, makes no matter.  I think the best thing that the "misinformers" could do would be to issue a retraction or correction.  At least Rogan said he can do a better job of presenting both sides.  Where are the corrections from all the talking heads that said you can't spread the virus if your vaccinated?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Typical Socratic argument:
> 
> Noob: You should make your own arguments, not just put words in other people’s mouths.
> Plato: But the words stand on their own, do they not?
> Noob: Why, yes Plato, thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.
> Plato: And the words speak for themselves even better when I get to write both sides of the conversation, correct?
> Noob: Well said, yet again.


The paperchase is probably the best representation of the socratic method (legally blonde is the cliff notes version of it).  

Kingsfield said it best: "_The study of law is something new and unfamiliar to most of you, unlike any schooling you’ve ever been through before. We use the Socratic Method here. I call on you, ask you a question and you answer it. Why don’t I just give you a lecture? Because through my questions you learn to teach yourselves. Through this method of questioning, answering, questioning, answering, we seek to develop in you the ability to analyse that vast complex of facts that constitute the relationships of members within a given society. Questioning and answering. At times you may feel that you have found the correct answer; I assure you that this is a total delusion on your part. You’ll never find the correct absolute and final answer. In my classroom there is always another question, another question to follow your answer. As you’re on a treadmill. My little questions spin the tumblers of your mind. You’re on an operating table. My little question are the fingers probing your brain. We do brain surgery here. You teach yourself the law, but I train your mind. You come here with a skull full of mush; and you leave thinking like a lawyer.”_ 

Law school was practically worthless in my mind, except in teaching logic, reasoning and the ability to think on your own.  I'd always go to the classes with teachers that taught that way.  For everyone else, I spent a lot of time at the ihop after a late night parties at the div school.


----------



## Grace T.

So true.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488629775505625088


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr....it's a technique commonly used as part of the socratic method, which they rang me through the ringer in law school with, and which I myself employed when teaching.
> 
> As to your Trump critique, I'd say it's a fair point.


And you still don't know what a wringer is --


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And you still don't know what a wringer is --
> 
> View attachment 12828


That's pretty cool....so that's where the expression comes from!  Surprised it has still stuck around in the lexicon.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> And you still don't know what a wringer is --
> 
> View attachment 12828


*"All that crap, you're putting it in the paper? It's all been denied. Katie Graham's gonna get her tit caught in a big fat wringer if that's published. Good Christ! That's the most sickening thing I ever heard."* 

Attorney General John Mitchell. 1972.

Socratic question -- what is there past tense of the verb "to wring"?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> My preference would be for Whoopi/Colbert/Rogan to be allowed to do whatever they want in the open spirit of leaving it all out there and having people make up their own mind.


My VERY BIG concern is that you are seeing major platforms such as youtube, twitter, etc shut down points of view they do not like. 

Not a good trend in the least. 

We do not want to live in a world where a gov or a major entity can shut down discussion they don't like. 

Rather Orwellian. 

Right now it is mainly entities run by leftists doing this. In the future it could be the right. 

Under no circumstance should we allow it.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> It's making light of the worst massacre in human history where millions of people lost their loved ones and which unlike COVID was entirely avoidable. What are you some kind of Nazi???  Do you hate Jewish people???  You a racist?????  You seriously saying the holocaust was no big deal???????????


I'm sure Mao or Stalin massacred more of their own people, over a longer period of time mind you. Colonist to the Americas managed to eradicate tens of millions of Native Americans, due to ignorance, carelessness and not caring either way. I'm sure there are other examples. There doesn't have to be a worst ... humanity has way too many examples of "worser". Maybe we'll grow up some day, doubt it though.

One thing that has always horrified me about the Holocaust was the cold, calculating efficiency with which the Nazis went about the business of exterminating fellow human beings, men, women & children, purely because they were Jews. I can't fathom it, and hope I never can.


----------



## Desert Hound

And our press was/is too partisan to do any actual investigation.

Just like covid, information keeps coming out that makes the gov/press look bad.









						Biden Boomerang: Newly released State memos undercut Democrats' Ukraine impeachment story
					

State Department officials told Ukraine prosecutor they were "impressed" with his work shortly before Biden forced his firing.




					justthenews.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> My VERY BIG concern is that you are seeing major platforms such as youtube, twitter, etc shut down points of view they do not like.
> 
> Not a good trend in the least.
> 
> We do not want to live in a world where a gov or a major entity can shut down discussion they don't like.
> 
> Rather Orwellian.
> 
> Right now it is mainly entities run by leftists doing this. In the future it could be the right.
> 
> Under no circumstance should we allow it.


Plenty of shouting down on campuses.  

Not what I see on Spotify, at least so far.  Give them 2 months.  They may just be helping Rogan get the support staff he needs to do his job properly.  Koppel and Cronkite had teams of people doing all sorts of research and legwork.   Rogan should have the same.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> My VERY BIG concern is that you are seeing major platforms such as youtube, twitter, etc shut down points of view they do not like.
> 
> Not a good trend in the least.
> 
> We do not want to live in a world where a gov or a major entity can shut down discussion they don't like.
> 
> Rather Orwellian.
> 
> Right now it is mainly entities run by leftists doing this. In the future it could be the right.
> 
> Under no circumstance should we allow it.


You should, imo, be more concerned with censorship of education by both the right & left, by managing adding/banning content that they don't agree with - NOT whether its factually correct or not. Educate everyone to a common high standard based on facts, critical thinking etc. and you "solve" the problem, theoretically at least.

Private companies will stand or fall based on their policies. The key being that they are private, for profit ventures. Those same private companies funnel large amounts of campaign finances into BOTH parties.

Congress could legislate, but then whoever controls Congress would be the censors, and would have the ability to change it every 2-4 years. The censors would also take their guidance from the campaign funders as usual, so you are back to the private companies.


----------



## espola

whatithink said:


> I'm sure Mao or Stalin massacred more of their own people, over a longer period of time mind you. Colonist to the Americas managed to eradicate tens of millions of Native Americans, due to ignorance, carelessness and not caring either way. I'm sure there are other examples. There doesn't have to be a worst ... humanity has way too many examples of "worser". Maybe we'll grow up some day, doubt it though.
> 
> One thing that has always horrified me about the Holocaust was the cold, calculating efficiency with which the Nazis went about the business of exterminating fellow human beings, men, women & children, purely because they were Jews. I can't fathom it, and hope I never can.


...and Poles, and Russians, and blacks, and Gypsies, and homosexuals, and communists, etc, etc, etc.  The only complaint I have ever heard about Holocaust history is that it belittles (in the minds of those doing the complaining) the other atrocities the Nazis were committing at the same time.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Plenty of shouting down on campuses.
> 
> Not what I see on Spotify, at least so far.  Give them 2 months.  They may just be helping Rogan get the support staff he needs to do his job properly.  Koppel and Cronkite had teams of people doing all sorts of research and legwork.   Rogan should have the same.


Rogan's not a journalist, but he plays one on the internet.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> They may just be helping Rogan get the support staff he needs to do his job properly.  Koppel and Cronkite had teams of people doing all sorts of research and legwork.   Rogan should have the same.


What exactly is Joe Rogan's job?  Has he ever claimed to be a journalist?  Has he ever claimed to be a news reporter?

Seems to me he is a talk show entertainer.  While it would be a good idea, he has no obligation to anyone to have a fact checking research team.  In fact, I believe his style has appeal because it is free flowing conversation and not scripted with pre-determined and researched questions.  I give it no more credibility than my buddies and I sitting around shooting the bull.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's pretty cool....so that's where the expression comes from!  Surprised it has still stuck around in the lexicon.


The Amish still use them in several varieties depending on the local rules for using electric machinery.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> My VERY BIG concern is that you are seeing major platforms such as youtube, twitter, etc shut down points of view they do not like.
> 
> Not a good trend in the least.
> 
> We do not want to live in a world where a gov or a major entity can shut down discussion they don't like.
> 
> Rather Orwellian.
> 
> Right now it is mainly entities run by leftists doing this. In the future it could be the right.
> 
> Under no circumstance should we allow it.


Story time (yeah I know espola).  You heard about that some school districts are trying to remove "To Kill a Mocking Bird" from the school curric?  They already did it to a lot of Twain works on the grounds that it has insensitive language and how would a person of African American descent feel having to be forced to read the "n" work, perhaps even outloud in class.   Conservatives are complaining loudly this is censorship particularly since they are established and famous works of literature central to the pantheon of good books.

The little known fact is this is happening from the right too.  The left has especially made a curriculum push to include more diverse works from diverse authors.  Some of this, though, has some graphic or explicit content (as a lot of modern works do) that people on the right complain about exposing kids and their sensitive ears.  For example, "Handmaid's Tale", "Diary of a Part Time Indian", and some others came under attack by conservatives in our local district for the same reason and caused a huge controversy in front of the school board (ultimately leading to the conservatives who had a 3 to 2 advantage on the board losing a seat and swinging the board when the teachers union went all in against one of the candidates).

Interestingly, a lot of the arguments degenerated into trust the experts (in this case the teacher's union and curriculum experts) v. let parents make the decision, much like COVID.  The problem is we as a society no longer agree on what is acceptable speech or acceptable reading in polite company, hence we get these clashes (much like Whoopi and Colbert get a pass because they are on the side of right and justice, but Rogan doesn't because he's on the side dangerous misinformation).  It even extends to morals and behavior (BLM rallies good and o.k. during lockdown but Trump rallies no, Clinton's conduct is forgivable but Trump is a dangerous cad),


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> ...and Poles, and Russians, and blacks, and Gypsies, and homosexuals, and communists, etc, etc, etc.  The only complaint I have ever heard about Holocaust history is that it belittles (in the minds of those doing the complaining) the other atrocities the Nazis were committing at the same time.


Yes, I get that and agree that none of them should be forgotten. Estimates (I've read of) are 8-11 million murdered in concentration camps, of which 6M are estimated to be Jews. That brutal, cold efficiency was agnostic WRT the victims.

It also goes to the "worser" comment, i.e. the Russians/Soviets lost 27M by some accounts in WW2.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> *"All that crap, you're putting it in the paper? It's all been denied. Katie Graham's gonna get her tit caught in a big fat wringer if that's published. Good Christ! That's the most sickening thing I ever heard."*
> 
> Attorney General John Mitchell. 1972.
> 
> Socratic question -- what is there past tense of the verb "to wring"?


One can't even give you a compliment without you ruining it.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Story time (yeah I know espola).  You heard about that some school districts are trying to remove "To Kill a Mocking Bird" from the school curric?  They already did it to a lot of Twain works on the grounds that it has insensitive language and how would a person of African American descent feel having to be forced to read the "n" work, perhaps even outloud in class.   Conservatives are complaining loudly this is censorship particularly since they are established and famous works of literature central to the pantheon of good books.
> 
> The little known fact is this is happening from the right too.  The left has especially made a curriculum push to include more diverse works from diverse authors.  Some of this, though, has some graphic or explicit content (as a lot of modern works do) that people on the right complain about exposing kids and their sensitive ears.  For example, "Handmaid's Tale", "Diary of a Part Time Indian", and some others came under attack by conservatives in our local district for the same reason and caused a huge controversy in front of the school board (ultimately leading to the conservatives who had a 3 to 2 advantage on the board losing a seat and swinging the board when the teachers union went all in against one of the candidates).
> 
> Interestingly, a lot of the arguments degenerated into trust the experts (in this case the teacher's union and curriculum experts) v. let parents make the decision, much like COVID.  The problem is we as a society no longer agree on what is acceptable speech or acceptable reading in polite company, hence we get these clashes (much like Whoopi and Colbert get a pass because they are on the side of right and justice, but Rogan doesn't because he's on the side dangerous misinformation).  It even extends to morals and behavior (BLM rallies good and o.k. during lockdown but Trump rallies no, Clinton's conduct is forgivable but Trump is a dangerous cad),


None of my lefty friends (personal or FB) wants to ban any books.  My righty friends (ditto) are divided.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> One can't even give you a compliment without you ruining it.


Sorry you think that.  I can't see the word or picture without my mind ringing (not wringing) the memory bell of JM's statement.









						'You tell your publisher, tell Katie Graham she's gonna get her tit caught in a big wringer...' - All the President's Men
					

John Mitchell: [on phone] You tell your publisher, tell Katie Graham she's gonna get her tit caught in a big wringer if that's published.  Ben Bradlee: [later] He really said that about Mrs. Graham?  Carl Bernstein: [nods]  Ben Bradlee: Well, I'd cut the words "her tit" and print it.  Carl...




					clip.cafe


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Opinions kill people now?   This aught to be good.
> Let me go get some popcorn cause this will be entertaining!!!


Save some popcorn. Just wait until after midterms if you want to see some really crazy shit. The wailing, gnashing of teeth and pronouncements of the coming doom will be epic.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Rogan's not a journalist, but he plays one on the internet.


Shows your ignorance…he doesn’t claim to be a journalist, just a curious person with a platform to broadcast interesting conversations, otherwise known as ENTERTAINMENT.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> None of my lefty friends (personal or FB) wants to ban any books.  My righty friends (ditto) are divided.


And tell me again who cancelled Dr Suess books?


----------



## Brav520

Kicker 2.0 said:


> And tell me again who cancelled Dr Suess books?


Georgetown law students are demanding a professor be fired , oh and also a safe space they can cry at


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> And tell me again who cancelled Dr Suess books?


Dr. Suess Enterprises, a private company, the holder of the copyrights.  None of the people who work there are my friends (personal or FB).


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Rogan's not a journalist, but he plays one on the internet.


That's just silly. He has plenty of journalist on though.  Why is everyone so scared of rogan? Why is he so threatening to people.  It seems no one has the cojoners to go on his show and carry water for everyone who is scared.  I'm pretty sure he would welcome any talking head to come on his show.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> That's just silly. He has plenty of journalist on though.  Why is everyone so scared of rogan? Why is he so threatening to people.  It seems no one has the cojoners to go on his show and carry water for everyone who is scared.  I'm pretty sure he would welcome any talking head to come on his show.


You know the reason...Dr. Sanjay Gupta.  The narrative does not survive the questioning.  CNN had to do damage control after Gupta's appearance.  In fairness, the Rogan show is a grind and gives a lot of time to be made foolish of (same critique was levelled on this forum against Jordan Peterson after all).  It's a long time to stay focused and not all of it is going to be gems.

Rogan has said he invited Dr. Fauci to appear.  Given Rogan's antivax following, you'd think Dr. Fauci would welcome the opportunity to directly appeal to the antivaxxers and bring them into the light.  Of course Dr. Fauci is busy fighting the pandemic, but given the chance to change minds, you'd wonder why Dr. Fauci wouldn't go on?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Shows your ignorance…he doesn’t claim to be a journalist, just a curious person with a platform to broadcast interesting conversations, otherwise known as ENTERTAINMENT.


Just like faux news, Fox News Entertainment . . . NOT intended to be used for factual information.


----------



## Ellejustus

Grace T. said:


> You know the reason...Dr. Sanjay Gupta.  The narrative does not survive the questioning.  CNN had to do damage control after Gupta's appearance.  In fairness, the Rogan show is a grind and gives a lot of time to be made foolish of (same critique was levelled on this forum against Jordan Peterson after all).  It's a long time to stay focused and not all of it is going to be gems.
> 
> Rogan has said he invited Dr. Fauci to appear.  Given Rogan's antivax following, you'd think Dr. Fauci would welcome the opportunity to directly appeal to the antivaxxers and bring them into the light.  Of course Dr. Fauci is busy fighting the pandemic, but given the chance to change minds, you'd wonder why Dr. Fauci wouldn't go on?


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just like faux news, Fox News Entertainment . . . NOT intended to be used for factual information.


And as you say that, think of all the press you watch and read that peddled the Russian lie for 3 yrs.

Countless major stories they peddle that were wrong.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just like faux news, Fox News Entertainment . . . NOT intended to be used for factual information.


No again…not a NEWS resource.  If you’ve ever listened, you’d know.  He is a curious man who tries to learn more without a corporate agenda. 

An honest person encouraging open dialogue shouldn’t scare you so much.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just like faux news, Fox News Entertainment . . . NOT intended to be used for factual information.


is that the only network you find fault with?  Are you a MSDNC fanboy?  CNN doesn't seem to be your cup of tea. Just really wondering how you consume your information.  I reckon you probably watch a ton of fox just so you can yell at the tv.  My parents do that all the time...hate a certain cable news channel station but play it all day in order to argue with the telly.  It's pretty amazing.  Good thing they are double vaxxed and boosted.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No again…not a NEWS resource.  If you’ve ever listened, you’d know.  He is a curious man who tries to learn more without a corporate agenda.
> 
> An honest person encouraging open dialogue shouldn’t scare you so much.


Why would you say he scares me?


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> You know the reason...Dr. Sanjay Gupta.  The narrative does not survive the questioning.  CNN had to do damage control after Gupta's appearance.  In fairness, the Rogan show is a grind and gives a lot of time to be made foolish of (same critique was levelled on this forum against Jordan Peterson after all).  It's a long time to stay focused and not all of it is going to be gems.
> 
> Rogan has said he invited Dr. Fauci to appear.  Given Rogan's antivax following, you'd think Dr. Fauci would welcome the opportunity to directly appeal to the antivaxxers and bring them into the light.  Of course Dr. Fauci is busy fighting the pandemic, but given the chance to change minds, you'd wonder why Dr. Fauci wouldn't go on?


He's had Gupta on, Osterholm on, Peter Attia.  Plenty of smart MDs with their own opinions.  His malone show was nicely rebutted section by section nicely by Vinay Prasad - who's been very critical of covid efforts across the board.

Malone and Mcculough tend to lean more opinion and are more dramatic.  Some of their stuff is junk medicine, some of it is good.  

Instead of trying to bully spotify and rogan, someone should come on the show and present their own stuff.  Honestly, I hope rogan soon goes back to more interesting people.  For now, he's probably the only game in town when it comes to unbiased and balanced conversation.  How times have changed...hippy artists, high on acid used to be anti establishment and pro 1st amendment.  Now they've dipped slightly fascist and adolescent.

Fauci would never appear on rogan these days.  Early on he may have.  Fauci has too many skeletons in his closet now.  It's wise if he stays away.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why would you say he scares me?


Such a strong derogatory response typically comes from a position of fear.


----------



## MicPaPa

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Opinions kill people now?   This aught to be good.
> Let me go get some popcorn cause this will be entertaining!!!


In the leftist world, it's only differing opinions that kill people. I know, it's a strange rule book, it's fluid and hard to follow.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> What exactly is Joe Rogan's job?  Has he ever claimed to be a journalist?  Has he ever claimed to be a news reporter?
> 
> Seems to me he is a talk show entertainer.  While it would be a good idea, he has no obligation to anyone to have a fact checking research team.  In fact, I believe his style has appeal because it is free flowing conversation and not scripted with pre-determined and researched questions.  I give it no more credibility than my buddies and I sitting around shooting the bull.


This is exactly what I got from listening to kickers post.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> Just really wondering how you consume your information.


He sits under his bridge and gets whatever floats by like every troll.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Of course Dr. Fauci is busy fighting the pandemic, but given the chance to change minds, you'd wonder why Dr. Fauci wouldn't go on?


You can't question his opinions because he is science.  Actually, he can't handle the scrutiny.  Look how he lashed out against Rand under some tough, but not that tough, questioning.  He needs to be tossed softballs by the MSM.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> My sarcasm detector just went off!
> 
> Are you saying Covid misinformation is harmless?
> 
> . . . but antisemitism is harmful? You ever go to a trump rally?


Amazing how daddy continues to live rent free in the left's empty heads.


----------



## Grace T.

Whoopi Goldberg has been suspended for a two week cooling off period. Such suspension period handed out in lieu of a cancellation will henceforth be known as the “Whoopi Cushion”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> You can't question his opinions because he is science.  Actually, he can't handle the scrutiny.  Look how he lashed out against Rand under some tough, but not that tough, questioning.  He needs to be tossed softballs by the MSM.


Answering pointedly inane questions gets tiresome. It would be like Dr. Fauci dealing with some of posters in here, repetitively tiresome and banal.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Such a strong derogatory response typically comes from a position of fear.


I agreed with you that he shouldn’t be considered a news source much like the faux news attorneys have said in defense of their marquee host. Do you find the comparison to Tucker offensive towards Joe?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Whoopi Goldberg has been suspended for a two week cooling off period. Such suspension period handed out in lieu of a cancellation will henceforth be known as the “Whoopi Cushion”











						ABC News suspends 'The View' host Whoopi Goldberg
					

ABC News suspended "The View" host Whoopi Goldberg for two weeks on Tuesday night, hours after she apologized for having falsely declared on the daytime program that the Holocaust was "not about race."




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> I agreed with you that he shouldn’t be considered a news source much like the faux news attorneys have said in defense of their marquee host. Do you find the comparison to Tucker offensive towards Joe?


Apples to Oranges.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Apples to Oranges.


How? They both have platforms that they choose to use as they wish. These days information gets out in many ways, some vetted some not so much.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Answering pointedly inane questions gets tiresome. It would be like Dr. Fauci dealing with some of posters in here, repetitively tiresome and banal.


What is your example of a pointendly inane questions?  Seems like he doesn't want to answer simple questions.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> How? They both have platforms that they choose to use as they wish. These days information gets out in many ways, some vetted some not so much.


Ahh, yes, democracy.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> How? They both have platforms that they choose to use as they wish. These days information gets out in many ways, some vetted some not so much.


Again, had you ever listened to JRE you would understand that your comparison is laughable.  

The shortest answer, one has an agenda the other does not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Again, had you ever listened to JRE you would understand that your comparison is laughable.
> 
> The shortest answer, one has an agenda the other does not.


They both need more balance and both allow false information to be put out without immediate fact check/vetting. It is obvious to me that many, many people aren’t cross referencing any of the information they get, usually from a source that caters to their point of view. Rogan does present all sides opposed to not at all, but does so in a disjointed/delayed fashion. The same people tune into Tucker all the time, but those people aren’t going to give a Gupta the same credence, or even listen to, as they would a Robert Malone.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> I agreed with you that he shouldn’t be considered a news source much like the faux news attorneys have said in defense of their marquee host. Do you find the comparison to Tucker offensive towards Joe?


Repetitively tiresome and banal.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Hank Green, a creator known for his YouTube and TikTok content about science, tweeted that Rogan's "influence and income grow when his content is more contrarian."









						YouTuber Ethan Klein criticizes Joe Rogan for anti-vax stances
					

After Klein, who is Jewish, criticized Rogan for pushing vaccine hesitancy, Rogan's fans flooded Twitter with fatphobic and antisemitic remarks.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> They both need more balance and both allow false information to be put out without immediate fact check/vetting. It is obvious to me that many, many people aren’t cross referencing any of the information they get, usually from a source that caters to their point of view. Rogan does present all sides opposed to not at all, but does so in a disjointed/delayed fashion. The same people tune into Tucker all the time, but those people aren’t going to give a Gupta the same credence, or even listen to, as they would a Robert Malone.


Repetitively tiresome and banal.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Hank Green, a creator known for his YouTube and TikTok content about science, tweeted that Rogan's "influence and income grow when his content is more contrarian."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTuber Ethan Klein criticizes Joe Rogan for anti-vax stances
> 
> 
> After Klein, who is Jewish, criticized Rogan for pushing vaccine hesitancy, Rogan's fans flooded Twitter with fatphobic and antisemitic remarks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Repetitively tiresome and banal.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> They both need more balance and both allow false information to be put out without immediate fact check/vetting. It is obvious to me that many, many people aren’t cross referencing any of the information they get, usually from a source that caters to their point of view. Rogan does present all sides opposed to not at all, but does so in a disjointed/delayed fashion. The same people tune into Tucker all the time, but those people aren’t going to give a Gupta the same credence, or even listen to, as they would a Robert Malone.


You read that where?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> I agreed with you that he shouldn’t be considered a news source much like the faux news attorneys have said in defense of their marquee host. Do you find the comparison to Tucker offensive towards Joe?


Maddow made the same defense


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> This whole mess has caused Spotify to modify its policies, so that's a good thing.  Not many artists are in Young's position (money in the bank after selling 50% of his catalog for $150 million not long ago, and good income from other sources), so not many can afford to give it up.


And that's why it's laughable.


----------



## Brav520

Tucker Carlson Tops With Democratic Demo Viewers in Primetime
					

Tucker Carlson was watched by more liberals in the key ratings demo in October than any other cable news program, according to Nielsen data.




					www.thewrap.com


----------



## Multi Sport

Elvira is siding with Neil now. I wonder how she's gonna feel when she reads this.

"You go to a supermarket and you see a f----t behind the f---in’ cash register, you don’t want him to handle your potatoes," Young said in a 1985 interview with Melody Maker. 

That was Neil Youngs take on AIDS.

Neil's little girlfriend should be canceled. How many times has Joni appeared in Blackface?


----------



## Brav520

Multi Sport said:


> Elvira is siding with Neil now. I wonder how she's gonna feel when she reads this.
> 
> "You go to a supermarket and you see a f----t behind the f---in’ cash register, you don’t want him to handle your potatoes," Young said in a 1985 interview with Melody Maker.
> 
> That was Neil Youngs take on AIDS.
> 
> Neil's little girlfriend should be canceled. How many times has Joni appeared in Blackface?


Another L for the Boomers


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> Repetitively tiresome and banal.


It's desperation. Even Trolls can see the writing on the wall. They aren't winning with their message, so the need to silence any dissent. It will only get worse.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You read that where?


Read? A number of places influence my opinion including watching/listening to both. There is big money in being anti-establishment, contrarians are like hippies except now their is a niche industry catering to them.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Answering pointedly inane questions gets tiresome. It would be like Dr. Fauci dealing with some of posters in here, repetitively tiresome and banal.


You don't have to ask repetitive questions if the person isn't avoiding the answers.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> ABC News suspends 'The View' host Whoopi Goldberg
> 
> 
> ABC News suspended "The View" host Whoopi Goldberg for two weeks on Tuesday night, hours after she apologized for having falsely declared on the daytime program that the Holocaust was "not about race."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I think its lame that she was suspended and I certainly wouldn't support her being canceled.  I'm not in favor of censorship regardless of where its coming from and don't believe in a "pound of flesh" mentality.

If we suspended someone every time they said something stupid, Joy Behar would never see the screen...oh wait, maybe I could be convinced that censorship is good.  My wife hate watches the View, and then will show me the lowlights on occasion. I'm dumber from just watching the clips.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Read? A number of places influence my opinion including watching/listening to both. There is big money in being anti-establishment, contrarians are like hippies except now their is a niche industry catering to them.


Big money? define big money. 

Quit clinging to last year's messaging and propaganda.  Science evolves, imagine that.  There is big money (and power) in controlling/clinging to narratives.

1.  Masks work - they really don't
2.  Vaccines work, trust me - They kinda do but have quickly lost relevance
3.  Lockdowns save lives - they don't, the opposite actually
4.  Lab leak?  no way - actually, likely


Thank goodness the american public has the ability to see multiple points of view and are able to make their own decisions.  

I thought hippies were the original mainstream contrarians?  Even they have evolved - it's hilarious.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> You don't have to ask repetitive questions if the person isn't avoiding the answers.


I should add...or if evidence comes up that you lied the first time you answered the question.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> You don't have to ask repetitive questions if the person isn't avoiding the answers.


Do you begrudge a man standing up for his and his families personal safety while Paul plays to the lunatic fringe?
“What happens when he gets out and accuses me of things that are completely untrue,” the top health official said, “is that kindles the crazies out there, and I have threats upon my life, harassment of my family and my children with obscene phone calls because people are lying about me.”


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I think its lame that she was suspended and I certainly wouldn't support her being canceled.  I'm not in favor of censorship regardless of where its coming from and don't believe in a "pound of flesh" mentality.
> 
> If we suspended someone every time they said something stupid, Joy Behar would never see the screen...oh wait, maybe I could be convinced that censorship is good.  My wife hate watches the View, and then will show me the lowlights on occasion. I'm dumber from just watching the clips.


The "cure" can do more harm than the act. We need a lot more of the approach below and a lot less of canceling if we are ever going to overcome the divisiveness in our country.









						Eagles' DeSean Jackson is taking Julian Edelman up on offer to educate each other
					

Looks like DeSean Jackson is taking up Julian Edelman on his offer. Edelman, who is Jewish, posted on social media Thursday that he hoped to arrange an educational exchange program where he took Jackson to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and Jackson took him to...




					www.nbcsports.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Now this is funny!









						Dr. Anthony Fauci's Spit-Roasting of Rand Paul Was Utterly Refreshing
					

Not enough politicians get called out on these grounds in official settings.




					www.esquire.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I should add...or if evidence comes up that you lied the first time you answered the question.


I feel you are the victim of misinformation. Lied?


----------



## Desert Hound

We have already seen studies showing this.

There will be more to come.

People like dad...hardest hit.

There is one thing the study is wrong about. It did have a large impact...on business, peoples savings, and education.

In terms of stopping the spread and reducing deaths? Not so much.


_Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19, according to a new analysis by researchers at Johns Hopkins University.


The lockdowns during the early phase of the pandemic in 2020 reduced COVID-19 mortality by about 0.2%, said the broad review of multiple scientific studies.


“We find no evidence that lockdowns, school closures, border closures, and limiting gatherings have had a noticeable effect on COVID-19 mortality,” the researchers wrote.

---_

And they even mention COST/BENEFIT...who would have thought that was important? Bueller?
_
“Such a standard benefit-cost calculation leads to a strong conclusion: lockdowns should be rejected out of hand as a pandemic policy instrument,” the paper concluded.









						Lockdowns had little or no impact on COVID-19 deaths, new study shows
					

Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19, according to a new analysis by researchers at Johns Hopkins University.




					www.washingtontimes.com
				



_


----------



## Desert Hound

Multi Sport said:


> And that's why it's laughable.


And those same artists pulling their catalog at Spotify remain with Apple who does HUGE biz with the Chinese. The same ChiComs that have put millions into camps for re-education. 

If you are going to stand on principle do it for the millions oppressed by a dictatorship. 

Others should do the same. Lebron? NBA? etc.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you begrudge a man standing up for his and his families personal safety while Paul plays to the lunatic fringe?
> “What happens when he gets out and accuses me of things that are completely untrue,” the top health official said, “is that kindles the crazies out there, and I have threats upon my life, harassment of my family and my children with obscene phone calls because people are lying about me.”


You're confusing standing up for something with lying to avoid accountability.

So its Rand's fault that people are phoning in death threats?  Who is responsible for the death threats to Tim Scott and other politicians from both sides of the aisle?  You seem to be following the playbook  of the left's victim mentality.  You clearly illustrate it here and in your posts about your neighbor that was killed during the Jan 6 riot.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I think its lame that she was suspended and I certainly wouldn't support her being canceled.  I'm not in favor of censorship regardless of where its coming from and don't believe in a "pound of flesh" mentality.
> 
> If we suspended someone every time they said something stupid, Joy Behar would never see the screen...oh wait, maybe I could be convinced that censorship is good.  My wife hate watches the View, and then will show me the lowlights on occasion. I'm dumber from just watching the clips.


I am not for suspensions. 

However since Whoopi and others on her side do advocate people being censored or shut down, they also should be forced to live by their own rules. Maybe once they realize the rules are silly we can move away from them.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> The "cure" can do more harm than the act. We need a lot more of the approach below and a lot less of canceling if we are ever going to overcome the divisiveness in our country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eagles' DeSean Jackson is taking Julian Edelman up on offer to educate each other
> 
> 
> Looks like DeSean Jackson is taking up Julian Edelman on his offer. Edelman, who is Jewish, posted on social media Thursday that he hoped to arrange an educational exchange program where he took Jackson to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and Jackson took him to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcsports.com


We are so quick to be outraged and to silence and cancel, when we should be debating instead.  Whoopi's and Rogan's comments would have been a perfect opportunity to do so.  

Again this all comes out of the fear of an opposing opinion.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I am not for suspensions.
> 
> However since Whoopi and others on her side do advocate people being censored or shut down, they also should be forced to live by their own rules. Maybe once they realize the rules are silly we can move away from them.


I understand your position but I was always taught "two wrongs don't make a right".


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel you are the victim of misinformation. Lied?


Still swilling the KoolAid, are ya?


----------



## watfly

CNN needs to take care of its own business instead of criticizing other networks.  What's that saying about "glass houses"?









						CNN chief Jeff Zucker exits over sexual relationship with top executive
					

CNN chief Jeff Zucker left his job after his longtime relationship with executive Allison Gollust was uncovered during the Chris Cuomo investigation.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## dad4

Lion Eyes said:


> Still swilling the KoolAid, are ya?


Swigging.   It means to drink.

Swill means to wash with an excess of water.  So, you might swill the KoolAid pitcher, but you would not swill the KoolAid itself.

Perhaps we can swig some iced tea and wring our laundry while pondering how people can think they are smarter than NIH and CDC, yet still have trouble with definitions of small words.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Swigging.   It means to drink.
> 
> Swill means to wash with an excess of water.  So, you might swill the KoolAid pitcher, but you would not swill the KoolAid itself.
> 
> Perhaps we can swig some iced tea and wring our laundry while pondering how people can think they are smarter than NIH and CDC, yet still have trouble with definitions of small words.


Swill also means "drink (something) greedily or in large quantities."

Can we add definition of "swill" to another thread with the definition of "varsity", ya know "Off-Topic: Definitions".


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Swill also means "drink (something) greedily or in large quantities."
> 
> Can we add definition of "swill" to another thread with the definition of "varsity", ya know "Off-Topic: Definitions".


I just get tired of the constant drumbeat of “if you care whether other people get covid, you must be stupid.”

Maybe I should ignore the right wing loons on this thread and swill some beer with my old varsity teammates from college.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Swigging.   It means to drink.
> 
> Swill means to wash with an excess of water.  So, you might swill the KoolAid pitcher, but you would not swill the KoolAid itself.
> 
> Perhaps we can swig some iced tea and wring our laundry while pondering how people can think they are smarter than NIH and CDC, yet still have trouble with definitions of small words.


swill
[swil]

VERB
*swilling* (present participle)

*BRITISH*
wash or rinse out (an area or container) by pouring large amounts of water or other liquid over or into it.
"I swilled out the mug"
synonyms:
wash · sluice · clean out · flush · rinse · bathe · cleanse · drench
cause (liquid) to swirl around in a container or cavity.
"she gently swilled her brandy around her glass"
(of a liquid) move or splash about over a surface.
"the icy water swilled around us"

informal
drink (something) greedily or in large quantities.
"they whiled away their evening swilling pints of beer" ·
[more]
synonyms:
drink · quaff · swallow · down · gulp down · drain · guzzle · imbibe · sup · slurp · consume
...............................................................................................................................................................

Maybe you should do just a little research before hitting " Post Reply ".

Lioneyes used it correctly ya " wanker ".



dad4 said:


> I just get tired of the constant drumbeat of “if you care whether other people get covid, you must be stupid.”
> 
> Maybe I should ignore the right wing loons on this thread and swill some beer with my old varsity teammates from college.


Maybe, just maybe you should just do a little scholastic " Research ".


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I just get tired of the constant drumbeat of “if you care whether other people get covid, you must be stupid.”
> 
> Maybe I should ignore the right wing loons on this thread and swill some beer with my old varsity teammates from college.


And we get tired of the constant drumbeat of "someone else is responsible for my health", oddly children in most cases.  Now that we've both misquoted each other and I've violated my "two wrongs don't make a right" mantra, I think I will do as you suggest and swill a beer.  Cheers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> You're confusing standing up for something with lying to avoid accountability.
> 
> So its Rand's fault that people are phoning in death threats?  Who is responsible for the death threats to Tim Scott and other politicians from both sides of the aisle?  You seem to be following the playbook  of the left's victim mentality.  You clearly illustrate it here and in your posts about your neighbor that was killed during the Jan 6 riot.


What did he lie about? And you are confusing me with Dr. Fauci’s words. Also why do you think my feeling bad for well meaning rubes is somehow playing the victim card. I’m not a victim she was/they are/are you?

If others are receiving death threats that is a different situation. Bring everything you can into a debate muddies the waters it doesn’t prove anything. Stay on subject.


----------



## azsnowrider

watfly said:


> I understand your position but I was always taught "two wrongs don't make a right".


Unfortunately, Whoopie has more than 2 wrongs. Sister act 1&2, Jumpin Jack Flash, Ghost, Star trek, The View, her stand up act, Ted Danson and the infamous Roast, etc       I kid, I kid,  But seriously Sharon Osbourne was fired from the Talk over defending someone's right to have an opinion. Why does Whoopie get a pass?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> And we get tired of the constant drumbeat of "someone else is responsible for my health", oddly children in most cases.  Now that we've both misquoted each other and I've violated my "two wrongs don't make a right" mantra, I think I will do as you suggest and swill a beer.  Cheers.


Responsibility, just be responsible. Searching for opinions to back ones need to care only about themselves is not being responsible. I’m tired of the constant, “BUT! BUT! BUT!” Regarding the worlds leading experts best, at the moment, assessments. To then only to offer up obscure opinions and spun numbers that are easily refuted. Like any post lying eyes ever wasted our time with. I have had a few stalkers in here that I suppose were hurt deeply, he was one of the first almost a decade ago.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> What did he lie about? And you are confusing me with Dr. Fauci’s words. Also why do you think my feeling bad for well meaning rubes is somehow playing the victim card. I’m not a victim she was/they are/are you?
> 
> If others are receiving death threats that is a different situation. Bring everything you can into a debate muddies the waters it doesn’t prove anything. Stay on subject.











						In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan
					

A spokesman for Dr. Fauci says he has been “entirely truthful,” but a new letter belatedly acknowledging the National Institutes of Health’s support for virus-enhancing research adds more heat to the ongoing debate over whether a lab leak could have sparked the pandemic.




					www.vanityfair.com
				




And no, you muddied the waters when you even brought the subject of death threats into the debate.  Don't blame me for what you brought into the conversation.  You seem to have this accountability disconnect that's pervasive in your posts, whether its you individually, or blaming someone's good faith opinion for the action of others.

I don't think you actually believe in censorship (despite your comments), and I know you don't believe in government mandates.  Again we're on the same page, just with a different approach.  I'm no fan of Rand Paul, but nothing he said was out of line, annoying maybe.  If we were to silence all grandstanding politicians they'd have nothing to say.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I just get tired of the constant drumbeat of “if you care whether other people get covid, you must be stupid.”
> 
> Maybe I should ignore the right wing loons on this thread and swill some beer with my old varsity teammates from college.


You should let them know you’d like to cancel them too.  You know, your quest to cancel Varsity sports or is that just for HS Varsity sports.


----------



## watfly

azsnowrider said:


> Unfortunately, Whoopie has more than 2 wrongs. Sister act 1&2, Jumpin Jack Flash, Ghost, Star trek, The View, her stand up act, Ted Danson and the infamous Roast, etc       I kid, I kid,  But seriously Sharon Osbourne was fired from the Talk over defending someone's right to have an opinion. Why does Whoopie get a pass?


Ha, ha.  Fair point, but I still stand by my comment.  At some point, someone needs to take the high road or we all get stuck in the swamp.  And yes I'm probably being naive.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> If we were to silence all grandstanding politicians they'd have nothing to say.


Please, please, can someone make this happen.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Responsibility, just be responsible. Searching for opinions to back ones need to care only about themselves is not being responsible. I’m tired of the constant, “BUT! BUT! BUT!” Regarding the worlds leading experts best, at the moment, assessments. To then only to offer up obscure opinions and spun numbers that are easily refuted. Like any post lying eyes ever wasted our time with. I have had a few stalkers in here that I suppose were hurt deeply, he was one of the first almost a decade ago.


Please point out any comments I've made that are irresponsible.  If you think my opinion of not masking healthy kids is irresponsible, bring it on.  Your covid behavior is not the only measure of responsibility, the picture is much bigger than that.  My covid policy:  Don't mask healthy kids, get vaccinated and if you have Covid stay the F home and isolate.

You know what's irresponsible?  Firing nurses for not getting vaccinated, but forcing vaccinated nurses to work when they're Covid positive.  That's how fubar'd our health policies are and proof that they are about control and not science.


----------



## Desert Hound

azsnowrider said:


> Unfortunately, Whoopie has more than 2 wrongs. Sister act 1&2, Jumpin Jack Flash, Ghost, Star trek, The View, her stand up act, Ted Danson and the infamous Roast, etc       I kid, I kid,  But seriously Sharon Osbourne was fired from the Talk over defending someone's right to have an opinion. Why does Whoopie get a pass?


----------



## watfly

I'll leave this right here. 

_"lockdowns in Europe and the U.S. reduced COVID-19 deaths by 0.2 percent."_









						A Johns Hopkins study says 'ill-founded' lockdowns did little to limit COVID deaths
					

The researchers say lockdowns had no noticeable effect on COVID mortality and had a "devastating effect" on economies and social ills.




					wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu


----------



## Grace T.

Gottlieb jumping on the team reality train.......things really have turned.....









						Dr. Scott Gottlieb says it’s time to consider dumping school Covid mask mandates
					

"We're going to probably have to tolerate, and probably should, a higher level of baseline spread," the former FDA chief told CNBC on Wednesday.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You should let them know you’d like to cancel them too.  You know, your quest to cancel Varsity sports or is that just for HS Varsity sports.


So, varsity programs would cease to exist if they had to share field space with IM?

I don’t think so.  Top level kids will still want to play on Friday, even if the IM programs get to use the goals Wednesday and Thursday.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I'll leave this right here.
> 
> _"lockdowns in Europe and the U.S. reduced COVID-19 deaths by 0.2 percent."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Johns Hopkins study says 'ill-founded' lockdowns did little to limit COVID deaths
> 
> 
> The researchers say lockdowns had no noticeable effect on COVID mortality and had a "devastating effect" on economies and social ills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu


You will start to see more and more of this coming out now that the public is done with it. IE...the truth is now finally trickling out.

dad and others hit the hardest.

And increasingly more and more scientists are saying this about masks...which of course was well known prior to this as the CDC had studies on its own site saying surgical masks don't work against respiratory viruses.

“*Cloth and surgical masks do absolutely nothing for protection from ambient virus,*” said Chad Roy, a microbiologist at Tulane University School of Medicine, referring to the virus spreading through the air. “All this song and dance of wearing cloth masks with some presumption that you're being protected from ambient virus is completely and positively 100% counter to how masks and respirators work.”









						Cloth masks useless, experts say in omicron messaging shift
					

Prominent public health officials have increasingly highlighted the limitations of cloth face masks, pushing for more effective respirator masks such as N95s as omicron engulfs the United States, a shift in messaging from earlier in the pandemic.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> So, varsity programs would cease to exist if they had to share field space with IM?
> 
> I don’t think so.  Top level kids will still want to play on Friday, even if the IM programs get to use the goals Wednesday and Thursday.


So you’re now reversing your stance?


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Gottlieb jumping on the team reality train.......things really have turned.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Scott Gottlieb says it’s time to consider dumping school Covid mask mandates
> 
> 
> "We're going to probably have to tolerate, and probably should, a higher level of baseline spread," the former FDA chief told CNBC on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Dr. Vinay Prasad — an associate professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco — has written an article that examines the scientific evidence for masking children and concludes that:


“most of the masks worn by most kids for most of the pandemic *have likely done nothing to change the velocity or trajectory of the virus*.” 
“there are downsides to face coverings for pupils and students, including detrimental impacts on communication in the classroom.” 
“*masking is now little more than an appealing delusion*.” 
decisions to mask schoolchildren are “*ignorant*, cruel, fearful, and *cowardly*.”


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> You will start to see more and more of this coming out now that the public is done with it. IE...the truth is now finally trickling out.
> 
> dad and others hit the hardest.
> 
> And increasingly more and more scientists are saying this about masks...which of course was well known prior to this as the CDC had studies on its own site saying surgical masks don't work against respiratory viruses.
> 
> “*Cloth and surgical masks do absolutely nothing for protection from ambient virus,*” said Chad Roy, a microbiologist at Tulane University School of Medicine, referring to the virus spreading through the air. “All this song and dance of wearing cloth masks with some presumption that you're being protected from ambient virus is completely and positively 100% counter to how masks and respirators work.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cloth masks useless, experts say in omicron messaging shift
> 
> 
> Prominent public health officials have increasingly highlighted the limitations of cloth face masks, pushing for more effective respirator masks such as N95s as omicron engulfs the United States, a shift in messaging from earlier in the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


It's kind of funny Hound that we have to post links from experts to support the obvious.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So you’re now reversing your stance?


My kid plays high level club.  My other kid plays rec hoops.  I think both levels are important, and I want schools to offer both.

Make sense?

I write this knowing that my more athletic kid gets less practice time if she has to share fields with IM.  That’s ok.


----------



## Multi Sport

Desert Hound said:


> I am not for suspensions.
> 
> However since Whoopi and others on her side do advocate people being censored or shut down, they also should be forced to live by their own rules. Maybe once they realize the rules are silly we can move away from them.


Good point.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Please point out any comments I've made that are irresponsible.  If you think my opinion of not masking healthy kids is irresponsible, bring it on.  Your covid behavior is not the only measure of responsibility, the picture is much bigger than that.  My covid policy:  Don't mask healthy kids, get vaccinated and if you have Covid stay the F home and isolate.
> 
> You know what's irresponsible?  Firing nurses for not getting vaccinated, but forcing vaccinated nurses to work when they're Covid positive.  That's how fubar'd our health policies are and proof that they are about control and not science.


I wasn’t referring to you directly. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/ah2engx


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/aZjqTQw


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/zPfNbwD


----------



## espola

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/aZjqTQw


"You've come to the wrong city"


----------



## espola

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/zPfNbwD


I went to church camp for a week about 1960.   When young teen-age boys are given a thick book and told not to read parts of it, guess what they do.  As an example, that's when I learned what "fornication" means.


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/ah2engx


I was thinking that all kids should wear tight swim caps to school to prevent the potential spread of lice out of an abundance of caution.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/belBdJx


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I went to church camp for a week about 1960.   When young teen-age boys are given a thick book and told not to read parts of it, guess what they do.  As an example, that's when I learned what "fornication" means.


Weird coincidence.  I went to summer camp in the 80's and learned what fornication was, but it wasnt out of a book.


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> I was thinking that all kids should wear tight swim caps to school to prevent the potential spread of lice out of an abundance of caution.


Genius pure genius…a cap.  The neck .. we will just ignore that.. it’s not important 

Adult head lice are roughly 2–3 mm long. Head lice infest the head and neck and attach their eggs to the base of the hair shaft.


----------



## Brav520

Oh no!!









						Mary Trump pulling podcast from Spotify
					

Mary Trump — the niece of former President Donald Trump — announced Tuesday night that she will be joining a growing list of artists who are pulling their content from Spotify in protest …




					thehill.com


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> Genius pure genius…a cap.  The neck .. we will just ignore that.. it’s not important
> 
> Adult head lice are roughly 2–3 mm long. Head lice infest the head and neck and attach their eggs to the base of the hair shaft.


So what you're saying is a cap for lice would be as effective as a mask for Covid. Got it.


----------



## met61

Back in fashion for 2022 - questioning legitimacy of elections and attacking democracy.

I'll put $1000 on it...any takers?


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> So what you're saying is a cap for lice would be as effective as a mask for Covid. Got it.


No you said it… I pointed out your cap idea is genius pure genius and has never been done before


----------



## Soccermaverick

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/sinki4


----------



## met61

Brav520 said:


> Oh no!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mary Trump pulling podcast from Spotify
> 
> 
> Mary Trump — the niece of former President Donald Trump — announced Tuesday night that she will be joining a growing list of artists who are pulling their content from Spotify in protest …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


...an out for a failing podcast.


----------



## Brav520

Soccermaverick said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/sinki4











						L.A. Mayor Garcetti Says He Held His Breath For Maskless Photo With Magic Johnson
					

Los Angeles Mayor — and Biden Administration ambassadorial nominee — Eric Garcetti today defended his actions after maskless photos surfaced of him and Lakers great Magic Johnson, along…




					deadline.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

Brav520 said:


> L.A. Mayor Garcetti Says He Held His Breath For Maskless Photo With Magic Johnson
> 
> 
> Los Angeles Mayor — and Biden Administration ambassadorial nominee — Eric Garcetti today defended his actions after maskless photos surfaced of him and Lakers great Magic Johnson, along…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadline.com


Although written in the context of Jew-haters, Jean-Paul Sartre's comments are equally applicable QAnon and anti mask conspiracy theorists.



Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.



•    ⁠Jean-Paul Sartre from "Anti-Semite and Jew


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I was thinking that all kids should wear tight swim caps to school to prevent the potential spread of lice out of an abundance of caution.


If head lice had killed almost one million Americans over the last two years, then it _would_ make sense for us all to wear hair nets….


----------



## NOVA.Dad

So sad.
So needless.









						Cy L Nunez, 56, Vallejo, CA, anti-vaxxer. Dead from COVID.
					

According to this page on facebook, Cy is dead. He died from COVID. I'm just going to get out of the way and let Cy tell his story, his way. Cy's COVID story in 3 acts. Act I: The Plan -- Documenting the effectiveness of HCQ Act II: "Do I look sick?" Act III: The epiphany that came too late And...




					www.sorryantivaxxer.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If head lice had killed almost one million Americans over the last two years, then it _would_ make sense for us all to wear hair nets….


I'm not being sarcastic, my wife would rather get Covid than head lice...its not even close.


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/W8SEAGE


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I'm not being sarcastic, my wife would rather get Covid than head lice...its not even close.


Totally agree here. It’s no question.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm not being sarcastic, my wife would rather get Covid than head lice...its not even close.


Omnicron maybe, but before we the vaccines I know two hardcore healthy 30 somethings that said it was horrendous. So there’s that.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/ah2engx


A more dumb analogy I have yet to read.  No one is saying sick kids should go to school. If they are sick keep them home.  There is no vaccine for lice. There are treatments for lice and they usually don’t go away on their own (unless you shave their head). We don’t inspect for lice every say.  Covid goes away by itself. And I much rather kiddo bring covid than lice


----------



## Soccermaverick

More fuel for the antivax pro head lice movement



			https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/teen-16-suffered-thirddegree-burns-after-lice-shampoo-caught-fire-and-engulfed-her-in-flames/news-story/ec13df45d63c8b74308d677285578e24


----------



## Multi Sport

B


Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/ah2engx


Because you can't see lice? Or are they now claiming people who don't have lice have lice even if you can't see them?


----------



## Multi Sport

Soccermaverick said:


> More fuel for the antivax pro head lice movement
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/teen-16-suffered-thirddegree-burns-after-lice-shampoo-caught-fire-and-engulfed-her-in-flames/news-story/ec13df45d63c8b74308d677285578e24


So when did this lice first appear? December of 19'?


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> I went to church camp for a week about 1960.   When young teen-age boys are given a thick book and told not to read parts of it, guess what they do.  As an example, that's when I learned what "fornication" means.


So you're a fan of Neils..are you homophobic like he is? Or maybe Joni... do you wear blackface like her too?


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/IDEqKtv


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Omnicron maybe, but before we the vaccines I know two hardcore healthy 30 somethings that said it was horrendous. So there’s that.


Well it's not a big deal for me to shave my head, I'm basically already there.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I did warn you that it was going to get worse but wow, the desperation of the Covidians happened faster than I thought.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Trust the science.. stop making stuff up to fit your agenda.. 



http://imgur.com/a/K9jnKJB


----------



## Soccermaverick

http://imgur.com/a/8mKfubT


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> So you're a fan of Neils..are you homophobic like he is? Or maybe Joni... do you wear blackface like her too?


Homophobic?  No.  You don't know anything about me at all, do you?

As for blackface, when I was about 6 I appeared as the Little Coon, my appearance darkened by wearing a dark stocking over my head, in the local mens' club annual minstrel show.  And our high school had a winter carnival every year that included a Kake Walk competition.  I wasn't athletic enough for that, but I played in the orchestra. There might even be pictures somewhere.

And as for being a "fan of Neil", I always thought of him as the bad boy who got kicked out of two successful bands.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm not being sarcastic, my wife would rather get Covid than head lice...its not even close.


Numbers aren't in her favor there.  Head lice IFR is a lot lower than covid IFR.  As you said, it's not even close.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'm not being sarcastic, my wife would rather get Covid than head lice...its not even close.


Don't tell her about this --









						Eyelash Mites: Symptoms, Causes, and Treatment
					

Eyelash mites usually are harmless. They’re a problem only if you have far too many of them. Find out when this happens and what treats it.




					www.webmd.com
				



.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Numbers aren't in her favor there.  Head lice IFR is a lot lower than covid IFR.  As you said, it's not even close.


My kid was sick 2 days and done. I’ve had it and am vaxxed. You either believe in the vaxx or you don’t.

with lice you got to treat the kid (which unless shaving involves shampoo and picking stuff out), wash everything, shut a bunch of stuff in bags, treat yourself (with long hair it’s a real pain) and treat the dog and rinse repeat if the other kids catch it. A drama that goes on far longer and is much more work than a stupid cold.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> My kid was sick 2 days and done. I’ve had it and am vaxxed. You either believe in the vaxx or you don’t.
> 
> with lice you got to treat the kid (which unless shaving involves shampoo and picking stuff out), wash everything, shut a bunch of stuff in bags, treat yourself (with long hair it’s a real pain) and treat the dog and rinse repeat if the other kids catch it. A drama that goes on far longer and is much more work than a stupid cold.


Ah yes, ignorance is bliss . . . if it were only that simply for everyone!


----------



## Desert Hound

More of the truth comes out.

This isn't a surprise since it was discussed here. Fear of losing a job or funding causes/caused many scientists to not say a word.

Happens in other fields as well.
_Speaking to Fox News, scientists from the U.S., Britain, Germany, Israel and Australia have recounted that it was difficult to publish research about the possibility that the COVID-19 pandemic began due to a lab leak, and that they found themselves shunned by other scientists, even when those scientists themselves found the lab-leak theory plausible.
"We got our heads shot from every direction, *from people who we now know were actually thinking exactly the same thing, but have chosen to say the opposite,*" Nikolai Petrovsky, a professor of medicine at Flinders University in Australia, told Fox News Digital.

The scientists speaking to Fox News claimed that others in the field were desperate to protect the scientific community -- *and funding *-- so they coalesced around the single idea that a lab leak would have hurt their work, and the community. The scientists who supported the theory had research papers rejected, and the media branded them conspiracy theorists.

Lord Matt Ridley, author of the book "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19," told Fox News that funding was also a motive for silence. "Senior scientists were quietly saying to me, '*We think you're right that it does need to be taken seriously, but we don't say so because the funding agencies might give us a hard time.'"*









						Scientists speak out about how they were ignored, even silenced, when they suggested a lab leak in 2020
					

Speaking to Fox News, scientists from the U.S., Britain, Germany, Israel and Australia have recounted that it was hard to publish research about the possibility that the COVID-19 pandemic began due to a lab leak, and that they found themselves shunned by other scientists, even when those...




					www.foxnews.com
				



_


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> My kid was sick 2 days and done. I’ve had it and am vaxxed. You either believe in the vaxx or you don’t.
> 
> with lice you got to treat the kid (which unless shaving involves shampoo and picking stuff out), wash everything, shut a bunch of stuff in bags, treat yourself (with long hair it’s a real pain) and treat the dog and rinse repeat if the other kids catch it. A drama that goes on far longer and is much more work than a stupid cold.


It depends on how you feel about events with low probability, but severe consequences.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Numbers aren't in her favor there.  Head lice IFR is a lot lower than covid IFR.  As you said, it's not even close.


Take your Covid phobia and multiply it by 100, that's how my wife feels about lice.  That applies to anyone in our family getting it.  In fact, if one of the kids gets it do you have an extra room at your house for me to stay because life will be untenable at my house.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ah yes, ignorance is bliss . . . if it were only that simply for everyone!


It is for the overwhelming majority who are vaxxed and who have school aged kids. You either believe in the vax or you don’t.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Take your Covid phobia and multiply it by 100, that's how my wife feels about lice.  That applies to anyone in our family getting it.  In fact, if one of the kids gets it do you have an extra room at your house for me to stay because life will be untenable at my house.


I have an extra room. You're welcome here. 
Many years ago, I had two young thick haired blonde girls and one brought home the lice from day care. I found out where the expression "nit picking" came from.......


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It depends on how you feel about events with low probability, but severe consequences.


Well then don’t drive, don’t have a pool, don’t fly, don’t ski and certainly don’t let your kid play soccer let alone (god forbid) football.

by The way my orewellian translator is going off and saying we finally got to the truth of you. Never seen it go off so much. It says: “I’m scared!  Help!”


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Take your Covid phobia and multiply it by 100, that's how my wife feels about lice.  That applies to anyone in our family getting it.  In fact, if one of the kids gets it do you have an extra room at your house for me to stay because life will be untenable at my house.


I have an extra room, but you can't visit if you're all lousy.  No way I want those little blood suckers in my house.


----------



## dawson

I may be at the wrong place but . 

What are your thoughts on how Covid might impact youth soccer the rest of this year in Southern California primarily related to having practices and playing games in league and tournaments. ( Mandates , restrictions , guidance ….. ? ) .


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dawson said:


> I may be at the wrong place but .
> 
> What are your thoughts on how Covid might impact youth soccer the rest of this year in Southern California primarily related to having practices and playing games in league and tournaments. ( Mandates , restrictions , guidance ….. ? ) .


LA can host a SuperBowl and watch the CA Gov and LA mayor hang out at Sofi Stadium maskless….I don’t see them not letting our kids play soccer…..or do I……hmmmmm


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dawson said:


> I may be at the wrong place but .
> 
> What are your thoughts on how Covid might impact youth soccer the rest of this year in Southern California primarily related to having practices and playing games in league and tournaments. ( Mandates , restrictions , guidance ….. ? ) .


I don't have any specifics but things are definitely trending in a positive direction - cases are dropping fast in CA now in general and the science isn't supporting positive effects for mandates while definitely showing the negative effects the mandates have had on children. Also, more people and even left-leaning media outlets are being vocal about the absurdity of continued mandates. I agree with Kicker above, including his pause, as many of our politicians have demonstrated that they have no shame. On the bad side, many CA leaders continuously demonstrate that they are anti-children and think nothing of putting a burden on children to allay the irrational fear of adults. In LA, I think you can take your cues from what LAUSD wants. I am waiting for the next self-inflicted black eye for LAUSD but maybe they have run out of un-blacked eyes already. We can always hope.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> I have an extra room. You're welcome here.
> Many years ago, I had two young thick haired blonde girls and one brought home the lice from day care. I found out where the expression "nit picking" came from.......


I appreciate the offer.

My colleagues kids have gotten lice a few times.  Apparently there is a heat process where you put your head in something that looks like those old school beauty salon helmets to dry your hair.  Expensive but I guess they guarantee the results.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I have an extra room, but you can't visit if you're all lousy.  No way I want those little blood suckers in my house.


I promise to wear a swim cap and double masks.


----------



## dad4

dawson said:


> I may be at the wrong place but .
> 
> What are your thoughts on how Covid might impact youth soccer the rest of this year in Southern California primarily related to having practices and playing games in league and tournaments. ( Mandates , restrictions , guidance ….. ? ) .


My magic 8 ball says:

Current restrictions for 2-8 weeks.  Should be fine for April and beyond.  We will have a small wave from the altered Omicron variant, but not big enough to cause new rules to be imposed.


----------



## watfly

Question on double masks.  I've seen a number of people wearing or N or KN95 over a surgical mask.  Doesn't that defeat the effectiveness of a 95 mask since it wouldn't have the fit required for the mask to work effectively?

In particular, I've seen this from some Olympic athletes.   Some athletes are already out with asymptomatic Covid, that has to be devastating.  Of course if they were a California nurse they still could go to work.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't have any specifics but things are definitely trending in a positive direction - cases are dropping fast in CA now in general and the science isn't supporting positive effects for mandates while definitely showing the negative effects the mandates have had on children. Also, more people and even left-leaning media outlets are being vocal about the absurdity of continued mandates. I agree with Kicker above, including his pause, as many of our politicians have demonstrated that they have no shame. On the bad side, many CA leaders continuously demonstrate that they are anti-children and think nothing of putting a burden on children to allay the irrational fear of adults. In LA, I think you can take your cues from what LAUSD wants. I am waiting for the next self-inflicted black eye for LAUSD but maybe they have run out of un-blacked eyes already. We can always hope.


There are 3 other national factors at play that might impact us:

-War in the Ukraine.  It's an open secret Russia has postponed any decision re action in the Ukraine at the request of China.  The question is what happens in the 2 weeks after the Olympics and before the Ukraine becomes muddy.  If the media becomes obsessed with covering the war in Europe, they'll be less people in the media to stir up panic by hanging onto the COVID bone.
-Summer Surge/New Variant.  Does a new variant emerge and is there a summer surge in the south.  If so, the media might not be able to help themselves bashing DeSantis' Florida and other states like Texas.  If so, this will put pressure on blue state pols to act to placate the media.
-The November Elections.  Everything is shaping up to an epic drubbing for the Ds rarely seen in our lifetimes.  The trends are just about locked in.  There's only a couple months left before all the money and candidates get locked in, only a couple months left to turn things around.  If the Ds get a drubbing, the pressure to end things will be enormous and we'll join the ranks of Denmark, England, Sweden, Norway in ending restrictions.  If not, we likely get a variant of some degree of significant escape, have another winter surge, and are back to some restrictions next winter.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dawson said:


> I may be at the wrong place but .
> 
> What are your thoughts on how Covid might impact youth soccer the rest of this year in Southern California primarily related to having practices and playing games in league and tournaments. ( Mandates , restrictions , guidance ….. ? ) .





dad4 said:


> My magic 8 ball says:
> 
> Current restrictions for 2-8 weeks.  Should be fine for April and beyond.  We will have a small wave from the altered Omicron variant, but not big enough to cause new rules to be imposed.


What are the current restrictions for soccer where you are in Socal, @dawson?

Also, @dad4, what are the current restrictions in SC County? I know HS soccer is going on during the ECNL break.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> What are the current restrictions for soccer where you are in Socal, @dawson?
> 
> Also, @dad4, what are the current restrictions in SC County? I know HS soccer is going on during the ECNL break.


Masks for futsal.  Other than that, no real impact on soccer.  

N95 on half the people in the grocery store, though.  Some offices still back to zoom.  

What does it look like down south?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Question on double masks.  I've seen a number of people wearing or N or KN95 over a surgical mask.  Doesn't that defeat the effectiveness of a 95 mask since it wouldn't have the fit required for the mask to work effectively?
> 
> In particular, I've seen this from some Olympic athletes.   Some athletes are already out with asymptomatic Covid, that has to be devastating.  Of course if they were a California nurse they still could go to work.


If you’re going that far, you might as well buy a proper respirator with replaceable filters and a rubber seal around the mouth.  The kind you’d wear for asbestos removal.  It would fit better.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/belBdJx


You spread too much misinformation.   Did you even read the article?  I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said.  Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope.  The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson.  lol

You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Masks for futsal.  Other than that, no real impact on soccer.
> 
> N95 on half the people in the grocery store, though.  Some offices still back to zoom.
> 
> What does it look like down south?


In LA region one of the pharma companies who shall remain nameless is facing an employee uprising.  They called back their workers full time in 2 weeks, but even if they are fully vaccinated will require them to wear masks (cloth masks not accepted, must be N95s, kn95s or "tightly fitted" surgicals) in an office with mostly cubical layout.  A large group of the employees, who are unhappy giving up their zoom pajama workday to begin with, has rebelled.  Masks after all are for the help, and they are not the help.   If the corporations decide they want their employees back in the office, I don't think the mask mandates will survive long after....the two issues though are intertwined (if you have to wear a mask, it's not safe to be around the office, though it is o.k. to go to superbowl parties....^\_(;?)_/^


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> You spread too much misinformation.   Did you even read the article?  I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said.  Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope.  The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson.  lol
> 
> You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community











						Fact-check: Are athletes dying from the COVID-19 vaccine on the playing field?
					

Sen. Ron Johnson wrong on claim that COVID vaccines are killing athletes on the playing field



					www.statesman.com


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Fact-check: Are athletes dying from the COVID-19 vaccine on the playing field?
> 
> 
> Sen. Ron Johnson wrong on claim that COVID vaccines are killing athletes on the playing field
> 
> 
> 
> www.statesman.com


Look up the same reports found outside the United States...funny how drastically different the results can be...wonder why? Money, maybe?
Our maybe Covid is just different in the United States


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Masks for futsal.  Other than that, no real impact on soccer.
> 
> N95 on half the people in the grocery store, though.  Some offices still back to zoom.
> 
> What does it look like down south?


I'm in SC county but with HS soccer (my daughter doesn't play) and her driving to training, I am not sure what the restrictions are anymore. I assumed next to nothing for outdoor. Makes sense that futsal requires masks. I assume you mean they require masks while playing as well. correct?


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Look up the same reports found outside the United States...funny how drastically different the results can be...wonder why? Money, maybe?
> Our maybe Covid is just different in the United States


Money is a reasonable thing to suspect.  What is motivating you to post this garbage?

Meanwhile, back in the real world --









						Article Makes Unfounded Claims Linking Athletes' Injuries, Deaths to Vaccines - FactCheck.org
					

Many U.S. athletes have been vaccinated against COVID-19 without any adverse effects. But a conservative outlet has cited a list of supposedly vaccine-injured athletes to claim “there may be something wrong with the vaccine.” There’s no proof that the listed athletes — most of them are actually...




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Money is a reasonable thing to suspect.  What is motivating you to post this garbage?
> 
> Meanwhile, back in the real world --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Article Makes Unfounded Claims Linking Athletes' Injuries, Deaths to Vaccines - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> Many U.S. athletes have been vaccinated against COVID-19 without any adverse effects. But a conservative outlet has cited a list of supposedly vaccine-injured athletes to claim “there may be something wrong with the vaccine.” There’s no proof that the listed athletes — most of them are actually...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.factcheck.org


Myocarditis must not count as an injury?  Oh, Okay...how many sources would you like me to list? Here's one to start...the sad thing is it effects young men who are not ever going to die from Covid  





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Money is a reasonable thing to suspect.  What is motivating you to post this garbage?
> 
> Meanwhile, back in the real world --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Article Makes Unfounded Claims Linking Athletes' Injuries, Deaths to Vaccines - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> Many U.S. athletes have been vaccinated against COVID-19 without any adverse effects. But a conservative outlet has cited a list of supposedly vaccine-injured athletes to claim “there may be something wrong with the vaccine.” There’s no proof that the listed athletes — most of them are actually...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.factcheck.org


Here's a good video for you to watch, no polls to read, just listen and watch. Interesting to think that the government might not be sharing all the facts/information.  Wonder why the government wouldn't share all the facts? Hmm, wonder if the government hasn't shared all the facts before in our history? Interesting? 



			https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/096/729/930/original/6172961f4e73ba9d.mp4


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Myocarditis must not count as an injury?  Oh, Okay...how many sources would you like me to list? Here's one to start...the sad thing is it effects young men who are not ever going to die from Covid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org


Not following the thread?  The first post you attacked had to do with claims of 150 deaths of athletes caused by the vaccine.









						PolitiFact - John Stockton’s claim that ‘hundreds’ of athletes are abruptly dying from COVID-19 vaccines is bogus
					

NBA All-Star John Stockton made headlines after he revealed in a recent interview that his alma mater, Gonzaga Universit




					www.politifact.com
				




Meanwhile, in the real world --









						Cat Loves The Laser GIF - Cats Laser Chase - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm in SC county but with HS soccer (my daughter doesn't play) and her driving to training, I am not sure what the restrictions are anymore. I assumed next to nothing for outdoor. Makes sense that futsal requires masks. I assume you mean they require masks while playing as well. correct?


Masks for indoor practice and games.  No mask for outdoor.

I no longer see outdoor masks at anyone’s practice anymore.  A few kids wear them, but no whole teams.


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> Not following the thread?  The first post you attacked had to do with claims of 150 deaths of athletes caused by the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - John Stockton’s claim that ‘hundreds’ of athletes are abruptly dying from COVID-19 vaccines is bogus
> 
> 
> NBA All-Star John Stockton made headlines after he revealed in a recent interview that his alma mater, Gonzaga Universit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cat Loves The Laser GIF - Cats Laser Chase - Discover & Share GIFs
> 
> 
> Click to view the GIF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tenor.com


Are you following the thread? I didn't post anything about athletes dying? I responded to GIF boy Maverick about posting misinformation.  Then you sent some fact check website that brought up Dying and Injuries, so I responded to your post.  Maybe it's moving a little too fast for you?


----------



## Desert Hound

_THE RISE OF ‘TOTALITARIAN SCIENCE:’ John G. West of the Discovery Institute has been tracking this trend for more than a decade and as the Covid crisis plunges through a third year, he’s not encouraged:

“COVID has shown government officials *how to do an end-run around the normal system of checks and balances. They simply need to invoke ‘science’ and declare an emergency — and then extend their emergency orders time and again*. Anyone who dares challenge the emergency orders will be stigmatized as ‘anti-science,’ or they will be told they aren’t scientists so they have no right to be heard.

“Regardless of your view of specific anti-COVID policies, *policymaking during the pandemic has set a terrible precedent for the future. The genie of unaccountable government power in the name of science has been let out of the bottle*. Will we be able to put it back in?”

And there’s much more._


----------



## watfly

Here in San Diego no restrictions on outdoor soccer, not sure what the situation is for indoor and futsal.  High school basketball in our district is no masks for players.  Fans are supposed to wear masks, compliance is maybe 25%, lower at some schools and no enforcement.   Even administrators and staff at some schools aren't wearing masks at games.  Seems to be a direct relationship between distance from the coast and mask wearing.  The farther east the fewer masks.

My daughter's dance venues in San Diego are requiring everyone to be masked including dancers while dancing.  One venue was requiring proof of vaccination as well, although the studio opted not to use that venue (Kroc YMCA).

Son has a soccer game in LA this weekend curious to see if there will be any mask requirements at outdoor soccer.  It is at a middle school.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

> Maybe it's moving a little too fast for you?


This passes fact-checking.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Are you following the thread? I didn't post anything about athletes dying? I responded to GIF boy Maverick about posting misinformation.  Then you sent some fact check website that brought up Dying and Injuries, so I responded to your post.  Maybe it's moving a little too fast for you?


You responded to a maverick post that contained a link to an article debunking the recent fables of athletes dying from the covid vaccine with this --
_
You spread too much misinformation. Did you even read the article? I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said. Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope. The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson. lol

You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community_

I responded to that.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Here in San Diego no restrictions on outdoor soccer, not sure what the situation is for indoor and futsal.  High school basketball in our district is no masks for players.  Fans are supposed to wear masks, compliance is maybe 25%, lower at some schools and no enforcement.   Even administrators and staff at some schools aren't wearing masks at games.  Seems to be a direct relationship between distance from the coast and mask wearing.  The farther east the fewer masks.
> 
> My daughter's dance venues in San Diego are requiring everyone to be masked including dancers while dancing.  One venue was requiring proof of vaccination as well, although the studio opted not to use that venue (Kroc YMCA).
> 
> Son has a soccer game in LA this weekend curious to see if there will be any mask requirements at outdoor soccer.  It is at a middle school.


The policies in Los Angeles for masking are all over the place.  If it's a middle school game physically at the middle school yes masks are required for the players even if outdoors (but not enforced....mine wears it as a chin diaper).  Club games on middle school turf are all over the place many not enforcing if the school is not in session.


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> You responded to a maverick post that contained a link to an article debunking the recent fables of athletes dying from the covid vaccine with this --
> 
> _You spread too much misinformation. Did you even read the article? I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said. Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope. The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson. lol
> 
> You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community_
> 
> I responded to that.


Okay...I simply stated the article was sources by "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson, I never posted anything about deaths.
Then I responded to your post about Injuries and Deaths. Your post was a fact check link that was also inaccurate in saying injuries aren't happening, I simply stated myocarditis should count as an injury.  

See how the thread goes?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> The policies in Los Angeles for masking are all over the place.  If it's a middle school game physically at the middle school yes masks are required for the players even if outdoors (but not enforced....mine wears it as a chin diaper).  Club games on middle school turf are all over the place many not enforcing if the school is not in session.


I've heard that as long as you are able to hold your breath you don't need to wear a mask.  Any truth to that rumor?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Question on double masks.  I've seen a number of people wearing or N or KN95 over a surgical mask.  Doesn't that defeat the effectiveness of a 95 mask since it wouldn't have the fit required for the mask to work effectively?
> I have seen some out on road bikes masked. Again I feel the original roll out of precautions and recommendations was so jumbled and undercut so severely by those we look to for guidance that even some reasonable people aren’t sure which way to go.
> In particular, I've seen this from some Olympic athletes.   Some athletes are already out with asymptomatic Covid, that has to be devastating.  Of course if they were a California nurse they still could go to work.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Here in San Diego no restrictions on outdoor soccer, not sure what the situation is for indoor and futsal.  High school basketball in our district is no masks for players.  Fans are supposed to wear masks, compliance is maybe 25%, lower at some schools and no enforcement.   Even administrators and staff at some schools aren't wearing masks at games.  Seems to be a direct relationship between distance from the coast and mask wearing.  The farther east the fewer masks.
> 
> My daughter's dance venues in San Diego are requiring everyone to be masked including dancers while dancing.  One venue was requiring proof of vaccination as well, although the studio opted not to use that venue (Kroc YMCA).
> 
> Son has a soccer game in LA this weekend curious to see if there will be any mask requirements at outdoor soccer.  It is at a middle school.


The East county proud folks I know don’t do masks or the sort . . . fewer dance studios going east as well unless you 2 step!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Masks for indoor practice and games.  No mask for outdoor.
> 
> I no longer see outdoor masks at anyone’s practice anymore.  A few kids wear them, but no whole teams.





watfly said:


> Here in San Diego no restrictions on outdoor soccer, not sure what the situation is for indoor and futsal.  High school basketball in our district is no masks for players.  Fans are supposed to wear masks, compliance is maybe 25%, lower at some schools and no enforcement.   Even administrators and staff at some schools aren't wearing masks at games.  Seems to be a direct relationship between distance from the coast and mask wearing.  The farther east the fewer masks.
> 
> My daughter's dance venues in San Diego are requiring everyone to be masked including dancers while dancing.  One venue was requiring proof of vaccination as well, although the studio opted not to use that venue (Kroc YMCA).
> 
> Son has a soccer game in LA this weekend curious to see if there will be any mask requirements at outdoor soccer.  It is at a middle school.


While we are at it, I'll give my update on what I see on my 50-minute bike ride out to the Baylands in SC County. I'd say we are down to less than 1 in 5 of the bikers wearing masks - I'd guess about 10-15%. I see between 5-10 bikers per ride. Walkers wear masks at a higher rate with at least 1 in 5 of the groups still wearing masks. I regularly see some big groups of 6-14 all wearing masks. Mask wearing skews toward those that appear to be Asian as well as older folks. I still regularly notice people putting on the mask as I approach them. Separate from my ride, I still regularly see children, outside with masks - many as they bike or walk to school as well as small children at the playground.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> Here in San Diego no restrictions on outdoor soccer, not sure what the situation is for indoor and futsal.  High school basketball in our district is no masks for players.  Fans are supposed to wear masks, compliance is maybe 25%, lower at some schools and no enforcement.   Even administrators and staff at some schools aren't wearing masks at games.  Seems to be a direct relationship between distance from the coast and mask wearing.  The farther east the fewer masks.
> 
> My daughter's dance venues in San Diego are requiring everyone to be masked including dancers while dancing.  One venue was requiring proof of vaccination as well, although the studio opted not to use that venue (Kroc YMCA).
> 
> Son has a soccer game in LA this weekend curious to see if there will be any mask requirements at outdoor soccer.  It is at a middle school.


LA Co here…..I have not seen any mask requirements for outdoor sports on or off campuses.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Homophobic?  No.  You don't know anything about me at all, do you?
> 
> As for blackface, when I was about 6 I appeared as the Little Coon, my appearance darkened by wearing a dark stocking over my head, in the local mens' club annual minstrel show.  And our high school had a winter carnival every year that included a Kake Walk competition.  I wasn't athletic enough for that, but I played in the orchestra. There might even be pictures somewhere.
> 
> And as for being a "fan of Neil", I always thought of him as the bad boy who got kicked out of two successful bands.


Well your infatuation with urinal habits would probably confirm you're not homophobic..just Neil. But you support him nonetheless. Did you also know Neil is anti science?

"Canadian-American musician Neil Young has suggested podcast host Joe Rogan is anti-science, yet the singer has lately been accused of the same as critics dig up his history of advocating against genetically modified crops (GMOs)."


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ah yes, ignorance is bliss . . . if it were only that simply for everyone!


Do science now says that your menstrual cycle can be disrupted by the jab. Let us know if that's true...


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Not following the thread?  The first post you attacked had to do with claims of 150 deaths of athletes caused by the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - John Stockton’s claim that ‘hundreds’ of athletes are abruptly dying from COVID-19 vaccines is bogus
> 
> 
> NBA All-Star John Stockton made headlines after he revealed in a recent interview that his alma mater, Gonzaga Universit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cat Loves The Laser GIF - Cats Laser Chase - Discover & Share GIFs
> 
> 
> Click to view the GIF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tenor.com


Science says covid got here in December of 19'.

Meanwhile in the real world my son was diagnosed with it in Sept of 19'.

Please continue.


----------



## Grace T.

Multi Sport said:


> Science says covid got here in December of 19'.
> 
> Meanwhile in the real world my son was diagnosed with it in Sept of 19'.
> 
> Please continue.


There have been a few studies around Europe (the two I'm aware of are Spain/Italy) looking at waste water samples.  They suggest COVID might have been in circulation in Europe as early as March 2019.  The findings though are highly controversial and the rebuttal is the samples may have been cross contaminated.  It would be interesting if we could get samples from around Asia in the same time period, but the Europeans seem to be the only ones that have kept them for some reason which I don't know. There's also been some debate over genetic tracing sequences and whether there was enough time for omicron b to truly emerge from the prime line (which had at least 7 different minor variations which have been identified in January 2020), but that's also very controversial and truly the realm of the epidemiologists.


----------



## crush

Crush got let out of jail fellas.  I am nicer too.  Sorry NoCal Dad for my cuz word.  I am now full of compassion and kindness and will look to always teach others with mercy.  I had to forgive myself first and offer compassion to me and then mulligans.  Once you do that and not judge yourself either, you can be kind and merciful and hand out mulligans to others.  I will look to only add positives to the threads from now on.  I will look to have compassion on all mankind.  It's not your fault you guys.  Thanks Dom for letting me roam the forum again.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

crush said:


> Crush got let out of jail fellas.  I am nicer too.  Sorry NoCal Dad for my cuz word.  I am now full of compassion and kindness and will look to always teach others with mercy.  I had to forgive myself first and offer compassion to me and then mulligans.  Once you do that and not judge yourself either, you can be kind and merciful and hand out mulligans to others.  I will look to only add positives to the threads from now on.  I will look to have compassion on all mankind.  It's not your fault you guys.  Thanks Dom for letting me roam the forum again.


So by leaving you meant changing personalities?


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> It depends on how you feel about events with low probability, but severe consequences.


Thats just a stepping stone away from Gambler’s Anonymous.

Stay away from ‘gateway’ probabilities…

Call 1-800-GAMBLER for help!


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So by leaving you meant changing personalities?


NO, changing to my true self, which is a soul full of light.  I am light and so are you.  New game starting up soon and everyone will receive all the mulligans they need to get their game on straight.  I am not here any more to jam my truth down your truth.  We all get to live in bliss, if you want it. All the mulligans one needs is here to stay.  I am truly a new man and will not get triggered ever again.  I have "Trigger Shield" now.  Boys will be boys bro.  Let's fix this mess together and do it for the ladies.  They deserve respect.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I've heard that as long as you are able to hold your breath you don't need to wear a mask.  Any truth to that rumor?


yes, proof is in the pic....he must free dive in his spare time.


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> yes, proof is in the pic....he must free dive in his spare time.


So crazy!!! They clearly don't feel masking is important or they would be wearing masks...so why make everyone else? If people still want to wear mask and feel it is better for them, then have at it, otherwise just let it go....strange


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Well your infatuation with urinal habits would probably confirm you're not homophobic..just Neil. But you support him nonetheless. Did you also know Neil is anti science?
> 
> "Canadian-American musician Neil Young has suggested podcast host Joe Rogan is anti-science, yet the singer has lately been accused of the same as critics dig up his history of advocating against genetically modified crops (GMOs)."


The only one who brings up urinal habits is you.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> Okay...I simply stated the article was sources by "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson, I never posted anything about deaths.
> Then I responded to your post about Injuries and Deaths. Your post was a fact check link that was also inaccurate in saying injuries aren't happening, I simply stated myocarditis should count as an injury.
> 
> See how the thread goes?


What "misinformation" was he spreading?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

This is good stuff from Garcetti on why he didn't wear his mask in the photos at the game last weekend.

"I wore my mask the entire game. When people ask for a photograph, I hold my breath and I put it here and people can see that," Garcetti said at a press conference on Wednesday, holding a mask in his hand. "There is a zero percent chance of infection from that."









						The Los Angeles mayor's ridiculous explanation for his maskless photo | CNN Politics
					

On Sunday, Eric Garcetti was on hand to see the Los Angeles Rams punch their ticket to the Super Bowl. As were plenty of the city's luminaries -- including Earvin "Magic" Johnson, who posted pictures on social media.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is good stuff from Garcetti on why he didn't wear his mask in the photos at the game last weekend.
> 
> "I wore my mask the entire game. When people ask for a photograph, I hold my breath and I put it here and people can see that," Garcetti said at a press conference on Wednesday, holding a mask in his hand. "There is a zero percent chance of infection from that."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Los Angeles mayor's ridiculous explanation for his maskless photo | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Eric Garcetti was on hand to see the Los Angeles Rams punch their ticket to the Super Bowl. As were plenty of the city's luminaries -- including Earvin "Magic" Johnson, who posted pictures on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I wonder what's going to happen.  LA County Health faced a backlash from a petition circulating that if Garcetti could go maskless at the superbowl, kids should at least be able to go maskless in schools.  Instead of masking like Garcetti., they announced mask would be strictly enforced, that N95s would be handed out on entry, and that $500 fines imposed for violations.  Apparently people will be told to eat quickly, stop watches handed out to security, and if too long of time taken, people eating will be fined.  I love that the petition, even if it didn't get a relaxation of the school, ruined their good time.  Wonder if they'll be any problems such as fights or politicians caught posing without masks.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I wonder what's going to happen.  LA County Health faced a backlash from a petition circulating that if Garcetti could go maskless at the superbowl, kids should at least be able to go maskless in schools.  Instead of masking like Garcetti., they announced mask would be strictly enforced, that N95s would be handed out on entry, and that $500 fines imposed for violations.  Apparently people will be told to eat quickly, stop watches handed out to security, and if too long of time taken, people eating will be fined.  I love that the petition, even if it didn't get a relaxation of the school, ruined their good time.  Wonder if they'll be any problems such as fights or politicians caught posing without masks.


Hahaha! I would NOT want to be the security in charge of enforcing that. Maybe they should give that job to those social workers who are going to replace the police. La La Land indeed.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> The only one who brings up urinal habits is you.


Meanwhile in the real world your checking out guys at the urinal.

Still a December 19 guy? Please continue...


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> The only one who brings up urinal habits is you.


You're too embarrassed to so I'm here to help...


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is good stuff from Garcetti on why he didn't wear his mask in the photos at the game last weekend.
> 
> "I wore my mask the entire game. When people ask for a photograph, I hold my breath and I put it here and people can see that," Garcetti said at a press conference on Wednesday, holding a mask in his hand. "There is a zero percent chance of infection from that."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Los Angeles mayor's ridiculous explanation for his maskless photo | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Eric Garcetti was on hand to see the Los Angeles Rams punch their ticket to the Super Bowl. As were plenty of the city's luminaries -- including Earvin "Magic" Johnson, who posted pictures on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Garcetti obviously thinks the public is as stupid as he is.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> ending restrictions.  If not, we likely get a variant of some degree of significant escape


That's coocoo.  The probability of a new variant is directly proportional to cases and to this point there has not been significant pressure for immune escape. that's the heck of it.  if you just let it run you increase the selection pressure for immune escape.  it's pretty simple. Vaxx held up great against omicron in new york BTW.  was just looking at the data.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

What is clear from the new CDC report over all periods is this - the worst group to be in is the nonvaccinated group without prior COVID-19. That group is the most likely to be infected, and if also at risk for severe disease - older 65 years of age, obese, chronically ill or immunocompromised - the most likely to die from an infection. Therefore, if you are in this group, please get vaccinated!  








						The CDC is finally recognizing ‘natural immunity’ — legislators should follow suit
					

Now that CDC recognizes the protective effect of prior infection, it is time to update vaccination policies and school or work-entry requirements across federal and state or county governments.




					thehill.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> What is clear from the new CDC report over all periods is this - the worst group to be in is the nonvaccinated group without prior COVID-19. That group is the most likely to be infected, and if also at risk for severe disease - older 65 years of age, obese, chronically ill or immunocompromised - the most likely to die from an infection. Therefore, if you are in this group, please get vaccinated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CDC is finally recognizing ‘natural immunity’ — legislators should follow suit
> 
> 
> Now that CDC recognizes the protective effect of prior infection, it is time to update vaccination policies and school or work-entry requirements across federal and state or county governments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


If you are in that group it’s also probably a good idea to not just get vaxxed but boosted.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That's coocoo.  The probability of a new variant is directly proportional to cases and to this point there has not been significant pressure for immune escape. that's the heck of it.  if you just let it run you increase the selection pressure for immune escape.  it's pretty simple. Vaxx held up great against omicron in new york BTW.  was just looking at the data.


Think globally (you all always miss global and time) World not vaxxed. It won’t necessarily emerge here. (though interestingly too was just reading a paper on the sewage in New York…they’ve found some anomalies in the samples that may be other mutations that didn’t take off…just speculation at this point for what it is).  Then there’s also the issue of omicron already having split a and b.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Think globally (you all always miss global and time) World not vaxxed. It won’t necessarily emerge here. (though interestingly too was just reading a paper on the sewage in New York…they’ve found some anomalies in the samples that may be other mutations that didn’t take off…just speculation at this point for what it is).  Then there’s also the issue of omicron already having split a and b.


I'm talking about your sentence that if restrictions weren't lifted that would lead to an increased probability of immune escape which is silly.  Global and time-what ever are you talking about? Of course there are other mutations that didn't take off.  Thats 99.9999 and add a bunch of 9's% of what Cov-2 does.  Re the split of a and b-not really a new voc issue.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'm talking about your sentence that if restrictions weren't lifted that would lead to an increased probability of immune escape which is silly.  Global and time-what ever are you talking about? Of course there are other mutations that didn't take off.  Thats 99.9999 and add a bunch of 9's% of what Cov-2 does.  Re the split of a and b-not really a new voc issue.


You are usually very thoughtful so it’s a bit surprising I got to remedial it for you

a. I think you misread the sentence (I do write fast and not always clearly because of it).  I didn’t mean if the restrictions weren’t lifted it would lead to the immune escape.  It’s opposite and I was speaking to the politics of it.  First there will be a new variant. Second that variant may very well have some immuno escape. Three it may very well cause a next winter wave. Four if the ds aren’t drubbed they may very well face pressure in light of their base to restrict.  Five that will likely be avoided given the tremendous thumping that is building against the ds assuming the course of things remains unchanged

b. Time: there are lots of places in the third world Which won’t be vaxxed this year in high numbers. World: you can’t just say there won’t be variantsthat take off because the us is vaxxed. Those variants likely will start off elsewhere in other nonvaxxed areas. If there’s sufficient immune escape it’s less likely but it could start off here (as the ny waste surveys point to)


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> What is clear from the new CDC report over all periods is this - the worst group to be in is the nonvaccinated group without prior COVID-19. That group is the most likely to be infected, and if also at risk for severe disease - older 65 years of age, obese, chronically ill or immunocompromised - the most likely to die from an infection. Therefore, if you are in this group, please get vaccinated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CDC is finally recognizing ‘natural immunity’ — legislators should follow suit
> 
> 
> Now that CDC recognizes the protective effect of prior infection, it is time to update vaccination policies and school or work-entry requirements across federal and state or county governments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Wow. You must be sober because that was actually a well thought out copy and paste. My entire family was hit with covid over Christmas and it started w my vaccinated son and his wife. All of us got it to some degree from one day to three weeks. It was telling though, that my wife, who also got it in Sept of 19 from my son, was one of the ones who only had it for 1-2 days, even though unvaxed. While on the other hand, I was the 3 week guy. I'm thinking it had something to do with her prior exposure. My kids..well they're young and athletic but my oldest and his wife must be prone to covid since they are both vaxed and have had it 7 times between them.


----------



## Brav520

Scientists Find Putting Pantyhose on Your Head Makes Your Mask Safer
					

After testing seven ways to make masks seal better around the face, researchers found that a pair of hosiery does the trick best.




					www.vice.com
				












						Scientists Find Putting Pantyhose on Your Head Makes Your Mask Safer
					

After testing seven ways to make masks seal better around the face, researchers found that a pair of hosiery does the trick best.




					www.vice.com


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! I would NOT want to be the security in charge of enforcing that. Maybe they should give that job to those social workers who are going to replace the police. La La Land indeed.


hard to believe this will be enforced by security guards

are Al and Chris going be in mask calling this game

coaches , players on sidelines?


----------



## Grace T.

F


Brav520 said:


> hard to believe this will be enforced by security guards
> 
> are Al and Chris going be in mask calling this game
> 
> coaches , players on sidelines?


Ferrer also announced late afternoon that they’ll consider taking masks off kids outside and align to state guidelines if hospitalizations fall (around 2500 iirc)

it seems the board got some pushback from constituents after newsom/Garcetti. The rumors are they pressured ferrer To align with state guidelines but she said no. This was the best they could get from her (along with a promise that there won’t be any such pics out of the super bowl).


----------



## Soccermaverick

soccersc said:


> You spread too much misinformation.   Did you even read the article?  I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said.  Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope.  The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson.  lol
> 
> You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community





http://imgur.com/a/CFrwZRp


----------



## Soccermaverick

One in 5 patients exhibit cognitive impairment several months after COVID-19 diagnosis
					

Many long-haul COVID-19 patients suffer fatigue and cognitive impairments months after their initial COVID-19 diagnosis, according to new research published in the journal Brain, Behavior, and Immunity. The study, which analyzed data from tens of thousands of patients, also found that COVID-19...



					www.psypost.org


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/CFrwZRp


You know the answer to that. American have never had a problem with violence, only sex.

and it’s not just the right that has a problem with books. The latest controversy is the left trying to remove to kill a mocking bird from school curriculum.  Sex they don’t have a problem with…they in fact seem to prefer it be explored from various perspectives. It’s very european


----------



## Soccermaverick

soccersc said:


> You spread too much misinformation.   Did you even read the article?  I know you probably didn't, so I will tell you what it said.  Funny, do you think the actually used a doctor or someone with credentials to back the claim, nope.  The articles source was "health officials" and an NFL Spokesperson.  lol
> 
> You need to stop spreading misinformation, you are dangerous to the community


Bust the your little Choo choo


One list circulating about the claim included 543 unconfirmed reports of athletes around the world who have died or faced “serious issues” since 2021. It was published by the anti-vaccine website Good Sciencing.


----------



## Desert Hound

Worth repeating again and again.

They lied. And to be honest they lied about many things.









						Fauci Knew About Virus Lab Origin From Secret Teleconference, Pushed Alternate Narrative: Jeff Carlson and Hans Mahncke
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci was told in a secret teleconference that the CCP virus had very likely leaked from ...




					m.theepochtimes.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> hard to believe this will be enforced by security guards
> 
> are Al and Chris going be in mask calling this game
> 
> coaches , players on sidelines?


I like your direction. It would seem to call for referee enforcement. Need to have experience at basketball (to do the count without a stopwatch) and soccer since they have write tickets. I’d recommend a uniform consisting of a Michelin Man bodysuit and a full facemask football helmet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Worth repeating again and again.
> 
> They lied. And to be honest they lied about many things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Knew About Virus Lab Origin From Secret Teleconference, Pushed Alternate Narrative: Jeff Carlson and Hans Mahncke
> 
> 
> Dr. Anthony Fauci was told in a secret teleconference that the CCP virus had very likely leaked from ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.theepochtimes.com


Ugh. If true, this is very bad. Where is the oversight?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ugh. If true, this is very bad. Where is the oversight?


Hey brother, it's true.  I have learned why people lie and I can forgive them.  I have compassion on liars because they had to lie to survive and that's hard on the heart and brain.  Can you imagine lying all the time and then trying to cover the lies all day?  Go to bed at night thinking of the next lie. Yikes!!!  They need kindness and some understanding on why they lie. It goes deep and deep understanding is needed.  My heart feels for those who have to lie because that's all they do in life, is lie.  I have mercy for all liars.  I forgive you all.


----------



## Desert Hound

This has been obvious for awhile.

dad, fauci and others hit the hardest.


_Last week, public health officials in Catalonia, an autonomous province in northeast Spain, and several other provinces, announced they were *scrapping vaccine passports in light of this new evidence.*

A committee of scientists told Catalonia’s regional government that because of the nature of Omicron, “a large part of the population is once again susceptible to getting infected whether or not they are vaccinated or have already had the illness.”

“The effectiveness of the compulsory use of the Covid certificate is reduced as an extra level of security,” scientists added._






						Spain’s First Study on Omicron Finds Vaccinated People Spread COVID at Same Rate as Unvaccinated | Jon Miltimore
					

Public health officials in Catalonia announced they were scrapping COVID passports in light of this new evidence, as did several other governments in Spain.



					fee.org


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> This is good stuff from Garcetti on why he didn't wear his mask in the photos at the game last weekend.
> 
> "I wore my mask the entire game. When people ask for a photograph, I hold my breath and I put it here and people can see that," Garcetti said at a press conference on Wednesday, holding a mask in his hand. "There is a zero percent chance of infection from that."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Los Angeles mayor's ridiculous explanation for his maskless photo | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Eric Garcetti was on hand to see the Los Angeles Rams punch their ticket to the Super Bowl. As were plenty of the city's luminaries -- including Earvin "Magic" Johnson, who posted pictures on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


science


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ugh. If true, this is very bad. Where is the oversight?


There will be none.  He will be let out to pasture.  Zero accountability as usual.  I suppose the best that could happen is an asterik next to his name.  His fall from science and medicine started years ago but has been accelarated by sars-cov-2.  Everything he's touched or has advised on  over the last two years has been politically driven.  He's touched everything, every imaginable trial/paper/research that's come out of the CDC/NIH, Pharma, etc.  

Never mind all of the clever untruths he's delivered  lately (lab leak, funding, etc).  At least his pension and investments are secured.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> Bust the your little Choo choo
> 
> 
> One list circulating about the claim included 543 unconfirmed reports of athletes around the world who have died or faced “serious issues” since 2021. It was published by the anti-vaccine website Good Sciencing.


Well, first, by reading your first sentence I know why you are the Meme Maverick and don't write much.  
Second, "One" list circulating must mean every person who is not vaccinated believes in a report from Good Sciencing.  Very sound logic there!!!


----------



## Soccermaverick

soccersc said:


> Well, first, by reading your first sentence I know why you are the Meme Maverick and don't write much.
> Second, "One" list circulating must mean every person who is not vaccinated believes in a report from Good Sciencing.  Very sound logic there!!!





http://imgur.com/a/D2eiNjx


----------



## azsnowrider

Desert Hound said:


> Worth repeating again and again.
> 
> They lied. And to be honest they lied about many things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Knew About Virus Lab Origin From Secret Teleconference, Pushed Alternate Narrative: Jeff Carlson and Hans Mahncke
> 
> 
> Dr. Anthony Fauci was told in a secret teleconference that the CCP virus had very likely leaked from ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.theepochtimes.com


Riddle me this, what would happen if it was true? Not saying it isn't, but what would happen if it was? >5.7 million dead globally, trillions of dollars lost, lives put on hold, disrupted, business's lost, our children, etc. My 2 cents we never know the truth, this will be filed away with Roswell, those pesky aliens at area 51, JFK, 911, the moon landing,  the list goes on. Somehow, I believe Fauci has a get out of jail free card.


----------



## Desert Hound

azsnowrider said:


> Riddle me this, what would happen if it was true?


I think it did come from the lab. 

What will happen? 

Nothing. The US and other countries are not going after China on this.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/D2eiNjx


LOL...Sister Midnight is another great source...thanks for the laugh


----------



## Desert Hound

soccersc said:


> LOL...Sister Midnight is another great source...thanks for the laugh


And note...still claiming Putin is in charge. 

If you are still writing that...you are only a couple of years behind on the fact that the russian thing was a hoax.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Responsibility, just be responsible. Searching for opinions to back ones need to care only about themselves is not being responsible. I’m tired of the constant, “BUT! BUT! BUT!” Regarding the worlds leading experts best, at the moment, assessments. To then only to offer up obscure opinions and spun numbers that are easily refuted. Like any post lying eyes ever wasted our time with. I have had a few stalkers in here that I suppose were hurt deeply, he was one of the first almost a decade ago.



You have serious TDS.

Seek your mental comfort within a CCP blog
that endorses the horrific abuses of human 
beings. Have a little " Cheese " with that whine.


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccermaverick said:


> http://imgur.com/a/CFrwZRp


I " Spy " a triggered democrat cry.


----------



## Soccermaverick

thirteenknots said:


> I " Spy " a triggered democrat cry.


You still hanging out at the overpass



http://imgur.com/a/BW2xmui


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccermaverick said:


> You still hanging out at the overpass
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/BW2xmui



You have displayed some rather introspective examples as of late. 
Lashing/projecting out with such " Democrat " personal character traits 
is making you a toxic individual. You might want to dial it back, as this
will definitely affect your personal ECG Banking score. Your " Phone "
habits will follow you everywhere.


----------



## Soccermaverick

thirteenknots said:


> You have displayed some rather introspective examples as of late.
> Lashing/projecting out with such " Democrat " personal character traits
> is making you a toxic individual. You might want to dial it back, as this
> will definitely affect your personal ECG Banking score. Your " Phone "
> habits will follow you everywhere.


Good I like fighting Nazis


http://imgur.com/a/p1tyKvL


----------



## Grace T.

This is just how ridiculous the COVID regs have gotten.  They barricade protesting maskless kids in the gym, but the violate the fire safety codes to do it.  Wonderful! Science  TM!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489454742631682049


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> This is just how ridiculous the COVID regs have gotten.  They barricade protesting maskless kids in the gym, but the violate the fire safety codes to do it.  Wonderful! Science  TM!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489454742631682049


Is this for real? adults have truly lost their mind.  I know mass formation pyshosis is more metaphor than science, but man, this surely feeds that fire.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> You still hanging out at the overpass
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/BW2xmui





thirteenknots said:


> You have displayed some rather introspective examples as of late.
> Lashing/projecting out with such " Democrat " personal character traits
> is making you a toxic individual. You might want to dial it back, as this
> will definitely affect your personal ECG Banking score. Your " Phone "
> habits will follow you everywhere.


More Hasty Generalizations by our Democratic friends that promised to bring us all closer together.  Such educated rhetoric by our Florida representative to start her sentence off by calling everyone who has ever use "Let's Go Brandon" an idiot.  

Then later in the post she writes how using that phrase empowers hurtful people? Hmmm, but calling everyone idiots isn't hurtful? Wow....and you support people that are blatantly hypocritic like that? You repost her hurtful comments and endorse her...how do you think you are any different than those you are accusing of such bad things...you are doing the exact same thing


----------



## soccersc

Finally!!!! This is what is going to help turn the tides!! Large figures in the media that are starting to realize the truth and spread the word









						Shaquille O'Neal says COVID-19 vaccines should not be forced - Sports Illustrated
					

Shaq: “You shouldn’t have to be forced to take something you don’t want.”




					www.si.com


----------



## Desert Hound

About a month ago I talked about a preference cascade as it relates to covid.

And over the past month we have seen a dramatic shift in the way people talk and deal with covid.

Parents have had enough. See this lady as just one of many throughout the US who will not forget who inflicted this upon the kids.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489316251897942019


----------



## Desert Hound

Now this is a blatant lie that MSNBC is spreading. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489400069203939335


----------



## dad4

If I follow your argument, worrying about a 1/93,000 risk of death is irrational fear mongering.

But worrying about a 1/12,361 risk of a 3 day hospital stay is completely rational.

Got it.  You clearly place a higher value on hospital stays or a lower value on death than I do.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> If I follow your argument, worrying about a 1/93,000 risk of death is irrational fear mongering.
> 
> But worrying about a 1/12,361 risk of a 3 day hospital stay is completely rational.
> 
> Got it.  You clearly place a higher value on hospital stays or a lower value on death than I do.


Thats funny.  I can't tell if you are being serious, I'm hoping not.

This is fear mongering at its best though posted by @DesertHound "With the omicron variant, kids are either going to get the vaccine or they're likely to get a serious condition of omicron."

What I don't understand is how these clowns can't figure it out.  He has been on MSNBC multiple times saying how the spread of misinformation has hindered the rollout of the vaccine, but then he goes and spreads misinformation like "kids are going to get a serious condition from Omicron" and he totally loses his credibility with those who might be on the fence.  The only people he ends up reaching with comments like that are the ones that have already been vaccinated.  I can't figure out why smart guys like that just have no clue???


----------



## Brav520

Desert Hound said:


> Now this is a blatant lie that MSNBC is spreading.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489400069203939335


sorry, Rogan is the problem


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Now this is a blatant lie that MSNBC is spreading.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489400069203939335


It's actually quite ridiculous what he says..  I should probably pull my music off of MSNBC.  I clicked on the link and also checked other sources...appears the article has been taken down.

And people think the M&Ms that went on rogan are quacks.


----------



## Brav520

I don’t think Spotify is going hold onto him the pressure campaign is not stopping

they are deleting more episodes of his catalog today


----------



## Soccermaverick

Conservatives: "We should be free to do what we want"

Also conservatives: "No one should be free to read what they want"


----------



## Soccermaverick

If you look at a chart of American vaccination rates over time, you can see the exact inflection point where right-wing talking heads decided to become anti-vax. If there’s a silver lining, it’s that this happened after nearly all seniors were vaccinated because they were eligible first.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Soccermaverick said:


> Conservatives: "We should be free to do what we want"
> 
> Also conservatives: "No one should be free to read what they want"


Did you forget all the books that got canceled by the left two short years ago? No one should be censoring books neither side!


----------



## Soccermaverick

If somebody has a belief regarding COVID-19, no quantity of facts or data  will change that belief.




soccersc said:


> Finally!!!! This is what is going to help turn the tides!! Large figures in the media that are starting to realize the truth and spread the word
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaquille O'Neal says COVID-19 vaccines should not be forced - Sports Illustrated
> 
> 
> Shaq: “You shouldn’t have to be forced to take something you don’t want.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.si.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Did you forget all the books that got canceled by the left two short years ago? No one should be censoring books neither side!


Source which ones… the Nazi ones


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Soccermaverick said:


> Source which ones… the Nazi ones


Yeah you got me, Dr. Seuss is a Nazi.


----------



## soccersc

Soccermaverick said:


> If somebody has a belief regarding COVID-19, no quantity of facts or data  will change that belief.


Thats actually true…but like I said in the other post about the msnbc article….the ones that have a strong belief are going to wear mask in their car and get a booster as soon as it hits their calendar day no matter what anyone says….I’m talking about the general public, especially African Americans who have been tentative to get the shot in the first place…now they have one of the most recognizable figures in the last 20 years say they shouldn’t have to get it…that is going to make an enormous impact on a lot of people who were not quite sure in the first place or didn’t get it at all


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Yeah you got me, Dr. Seuss is a Nazi.


Who canceled Dr. Suess? Why another Suess you silly goose. Next?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who canceled Dr. Suess? Why another Suess you silly goose. Next?


It is arguable that the Seuss estate engaged in self censorship because of a reasonable expectation of racism accusations.

There are a lot of racism accusations flying around these days.  And, once someone is accused, they are treated as guilty.

I can see the heirs trying to avoid that kind of mud slinging, especially since few people today are capable of viewing Giessel's wartime cartoons in context. 

He would have been tarred and feathered faster than you can say "systemic racism".


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> It is arguable that the Seuss estate engaged in self censorship because of a reasonable expectation of racism accusations.
> 
> There are a lot of racism accusations flying around these days.  And, once someone is accused, they are treated as guilty.
> 
> I can see the heirs trying to avoid that kind of mud slinging, especially since few people today are capable of viewing Giessel's wartime cartoons in context.
> 
> He would have been tarred and feathered faster than you can say "systemic racism".


There are no heirs -- Dr. Suess (Ted Geisel) was childless.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> There are no heirs -- Dr. Suess (Ted Geisel) was childless.


Heirs to the estate.  That includes philanthropic interests.


----------



## LASTMAN14

watfly said:


> Well it's not a big deal for me to shave my head, I'm basically already there.


Did they just say Omnicron? Dam! Another variant already!


----------



## LASTMAN14

espola said:


> There are no heirs -- Dr. Suess (Ted Geisel) was childless.


That says a lot. Madness.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Poor baby didn’t feel well after the vaccination

uh goona cry.. whomp whomp









						NJ mom, forced to get vaccine before a family wedding, ends up in the ER
					

Kathleen Zemlachenko of Raritan Township, N.J., suffered a medical emergency after getting the COVID vaccine, which she felt forced to take — and spoke to Fox News Digital about the frightening experience.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccermaverick said:


> Poor baby didn’t feel well after the vaccination
> 
> uh goona cry.. whomp whomp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NJ mom, forced to get vaccine before a family wedding, ends up in the ER
> 
> 
> Kathleen Zemlachenko of Raritan Township, N.J., suffered a medical emergency after getting the COVID vaccine, which she felt forced to take — and spoke to Fox News Digital about the frightening experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Anyone who uses the term “the jab” is already attempting to belittle the vaccine process.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Anyone who uses the term “the jab” is already attempting to belittle the vaccine process.











						Novavax Covid jab approved by UK drugs regulator
					

UK regulator the MHRA says Nuvaxovid is safe as a first and second dose in adults.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The Covidian troll(s) are panicking. The basis for their narrative continues to erode as more and more data presents itself. We’ll see an increase in EOTL/GG/SM Reddit Puke Posts as this is all that remains. Husker will continue his posts about anti-vaxxers. It’s nice that he puts so much energy into one person on the board - @crush living rent-free in his head. You are all he has @crush. His post about using the word “jab” is consistent with his other inane posts. CNN uses it regularly. Let's add "lazy" to his "pathetic troll" title.









						Novak Djokovic remains a national idol in Serbia despite anti-vax stance | CNN
					

Not long after the world's best tennis player, Novak Djokovic, stepped off the plane in Melbourne and into legal uncertainty, his father, Srdjan, held a press conference in the back room of his Novak-themed family restaurant in Belgrade, confidently declaring, "Novak is Serbia, Serbia is Novak."




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Brav520

N00B said:


> Novavax Covid jab approved by UK drugs regulator
> 
> 
> UK regulator the MHRA says Nuvaxovid is safe as a first and second dose in adults.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


anti-vaxxer BBC


----------



## Brav520

NPR using jab









						Putting A Roof On Risk With A COVID-19 Vaccine Jab
					

NPR's Bob Mondello is back from his vaccination appointment and feeling safer.




					www.npr.org


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> The Covidian troll(s) are panicking. The basis for their narrative continues to erode as more and more data presents itself. We’ll see an increase in EOTL/GG/SM Reddit Puke Posts as this is all that remains. Husker will continue his posts about anti-vaxxers. It’s nice that he puts so much energy into one person on the board - @crush living rent-free in his head. You are all he has @crush. His post about using the word “jab” is consistent with his other inane posts. CNN uses it regularly. Let's add "lazy" to his "pathetic troll" title.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Novak Djokovic remains a national idol in Serbia despite anti-vax stance | CNN
> 
> 
> Not long after the world's best tennis player, Novak Djokovic, stepped off the plane in Melbourne and into legal uncertainty, his father, Srdjan, held a press conference in the back room of his Novak-themed family restaurant in Belgrade, confidently declaring, "Novak is Serbia, Serbia is Novak."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


We need to show compassion to Husker and Espola.  Now is not the time to celebrate early victory.  Mankind needs to show all mankind true kindness or things will not get RIGHT.  I empathize with everyone one here, trust me.  I lost it all in 2017 and fought back hard, only to lose it all again when Covid came to our shores with wave after wave.  I did not have a three year rainy day fund so I became one in need.  I will never forget those who stood by me in my time of need.  I was tempted to give into peer pressure like I did back in Junior "high" School and just roll my arm up to get everyone off my back and so I could work and pay them bills.  I personally have been wrong many times and my wife has shown much mercy to crush, trust me brother.  Mulligans for me and you and everyone else.  However, time is running out so dont wait to take a few.  If you give to hate, you will receive hate back.  If you give into negativity, you will receive negativity.  If you are positive, you will receive positive.   Love you man and I mean that 100%!!!


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccermaverick said:


> Conservatives: "We should be free to do what we want"
> 
> Also conservatives: "No one should be free to read what they want"





Soccermaverick said:


> If you look at a chart of American vaccination rates over time, you can see the exact inflection point where right-wing talking heads decided to become anti-vax. If there’s a silver lining, it’s that this happened after nearly all seniors were vaccinated because they were eligible first.





Soccermaverick said:


> Source which ones… the Nazi ones



You snort a lot of foreign substances, don't you?


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccermaverick said:


> Poor baby didn’t feel well after the vaccination
> 
> uh goona cry.. whomp whomp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NJ mom, forced to get vaccine before a family wedding, ends up in the ER
> 
> 
> Kathleen Zemlachenko of Raritan Township, N.J., suffered a medical emergency after getting the COVID vaccine, which she felt forced to take — and spoke to Fox News Digital about the frightening experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com



Wow...paprika really makes you bitter.


----------



## dad4

Soccermaverick said:


> Poor baby didn’t feel well after the vaccination
> 
> uh goona cry.. whomp whomp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NJ mom, forced to get vaccine before a family wedding, ends up in the ER
> 
> 
> Kathleen Zemlachenko of Raritan Township, N.J., suffered a medical emergency after getting the COVID vaccine, which she felt forced to take — and spoke to Fox News Digital about the frightening experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


When you run out of data, you argue by anecdote.  NYT and NPR do the same.

This one is rather lame.  An overweight middle aged woman had a reaction to the covid vaccine.  Not too surprising, if you think about it.  The only interesting part is that Fox thinks it is worth a headline.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Anyone who uses the term “the jab” is already attempting to belittle the vaccine process.


really? why?  "jab" has been used forever.


----------



## Brav520

what-happened said:


> really? why?  "jab" has been used forever.


So does every single news source


----------



## espola

Athletes ‘dropping dead’ is the latest mutation of covid vaccine misinformation
					

The myth distorted a real phenomenon: young sports stars discovering congenital heart problems.




					www.grid.news


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## watfly

I'm in the bowels of LA waiting for my sons game and outdoor mask wearing is probably 80+%.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm in the bowels of LA waiting for my sons game and outdoor mask wearing is probably 80+%.


Quite descriptive and accurate as my opinion of the greater LA area goes.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Athletes ‘dropping dead’ is the latest mutation of covid vaccine misinformation
> 
> 
> The myth distorted a real phenomenon: young sports stars discovering congenital heart problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.grid.news



You'll rot in Hell for this attempted cover up.
The data is there. 
Apologize now!


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> You'll rot in Hell for this attempted cover up.
> The data is there.
> Apologize now!


Thank you for confirming my opinion of you.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Thank you for confirming my opinion of you.


You're welcome.

I value your opinion as much as I do your 
namesake Adam Espola Schiff. 

You'll face reality when Nuremburg 2.0 is kicked off.

" Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt "

Obeying Orders | Facing History and Ourselves


----------



## Brav520

Joe Rogan Agrees To Only Spread CDC-Approved Misinformation
					

AUSTIN, TX—The world's most popular podcaster and elk meat enthusiast Joe Rogan has agreed to stop spreading unapproved misinformation and only share misinformation that has been approved by the CDC first, sources confirmed this week.




					babylonbee.com


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Joe Rogan Agrees To Only Spread CDC-Approved Misinformation
> 
> 
> AUSTIN, TX—The world's most popular podcaster and elk meat enthusiast Joe Rogan has agreed to stop spreading unapproved misinformation and only share misinformation that has been approved by the CDC first, sources confirmed this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> babylonbee.com


Today it was announced that Rogan was removing some of his content from Spotify, following an ongoing trend.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Today it was announced that Rogan was removing some of his content from Spotify, following an ongoing trend.


...got him! albeit, not hard to do.

#thebeestrikesagain


----------



## Brav520

Yeah I saw that , that was going on yesterday

I don’t think Rogan will last with Spotify. The commies don’t want episodes removed or him to apologize , they want him off Spotify, completely de platformed 

I wonder if Howard Stern will feel the heat , but probably not because he agrees with the regime on vaccine mandates


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Yeah I saw that , that was going on yesterday
> 
> I don’t think Rogan will last with Spotify. The commies don’t want episodes removed or him to apologize , they want him off Spotify, completely de platformed
> 
> I wonder if Howard Stern will feel the heat , but probably not because he agrees with the regime on vaccine mandates


Rogan (or Spotify, perhaps) is disavowing earlier content that seemed to be OK at the time.  It's his Dr. Seuss moment.


----------



## crush

I want you all to meet my wife's friend, "Anna."  She came over to my house 2016 after t won.  She was flipping out and crying and said Russia had taken over our country.  She then told me how evil t was and that he was going to be impeached.  She has a masters degree as well.  I told her to calm down and trust in God.  She stopped talking to me until a few days ago.  She lost weight and finally listen to my advice.  She see's the TRUTH now.  I love you Anna


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Rogan (or Spotify, perhaps) is disavowing earlier content that seemed to be OK at the time.  It's his Dr. Seuss moment.


His discussing the “n-word” isn’t a thing for me. At least what I saw was just a discussion about the word and how and who uses it. But the planet of the apes thing and the non-apology excuse was pretty bad.


----------



## whatithink

Brav520 said:


> Yeah I saw that , that was going on yesterday
> 
> I don’t think Rogan will last with Spotify. The commies don’t want episodes removed or him to apologize , they want him off Spotify, completely de platformed
> 
> I wonder if Howard Stern will feel the heat , but probably not because he agrees with the regime on vaccine mandates


Its capitalism, not communism. I don't care either way as I don't use Spotify, but they apparently think it impacts their brand and therefore their revenues, so they are taking action. If it was having a positive effect on their revenue, they would be talking about their moral high ground and freedom of speech (from a marketing perspective obviously). This is a 100% capitalist reaction, money before moral backbone etc.


----------



## Brav520

whatithink said:


> Its capitalism, not communism. I don't care either way as I don't use Spotify, but they apparently think it impacts their brand and therefore their revenues, so they are taking action. If it was having a positive effect on their revenue, they would be talking about their moral high ground and freedom of speech (from a marketing perspective obviously). This is a 100% capitalist reaction, money before moral backbone etc.


No the people pushing for the censorship and de platforming are


----------



## Brav520

This spells out from the CEO how important Rogan is to the company









						Spotify CEO stands by Joe Rogan
					

Spotify CEO Daniel Ek has justified standing behind podcaster Joe Rogan as a slew of aging rockers flee the platform.




					nypost.com


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Quite descriptive and accurate as my opinion of the greater LA area goes.


You're right, bowels of LA is redundant.  I don't know how anyone can stand to live there.  They obviously have way more patience and idiot tolerance than I do.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> When you run out of data, you argue by anecdote.  NYT and NPR do the same.
> 
> This one is rather lame.  An overweight middle aged woman had a reaction to the covid vaccine.  Not too surprising, if you think about it.  The only interesting part is that Fox thinks it is worth a headline.


Agree - definitely anecdotal.

Are you good with this headline?

CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective









						CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective
					

A new study concluding lockdowns 'should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument' was ignored by the vast majority of the liberal media.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Agree - definitely anecdotal.
> 
> Are you good with this headline?
> 
> CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective
> 
> 
> A new study concluding lockdowns 'should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument' was ignored by the vast majority of the liberal media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Looks like the reason they passed on the story might be that they did better fact-checking than FN did.

_The viral “Johns Hopkins study” about lockdowns was not the work of Johns Hopkins University, it was not peer-reviewed, and it was not written by epidemiologists. A number of researchers have also taken issue with the methods used in this study._









						Here's What We Know About 'Johns Hopkins Study' on Lockdowns
					

It's a non-peer reviewed working paper that has not been endorsed by the university.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## crush

Can we all agree that mask shall be off the kids now at school?  Let's show compassion to the children.  This is not normal!


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Can we all agree that mask shall be off the kids now at school?  Let's show compassion to the children.  This is not normal!
> 
> View attachment 12843


more great political AD material for the GOP


----------



## Brav520

In her defense she was probably holding her breath

-Abrams has now deleted this tweet


----------



## crush

*I love Shaq.  Thanks for the back up brother.  I loved you as a Laker and I love you even more today 

Shaq talk with Shaq.  Listen to Shaq at least fellas.  *



*Shaquille O’Neal Says COVID-19 Vaccines Should Not Be Forced*

*Shaq:* Look, I encourage everybody to be safe and take care of your family, I do.

*Crush:*  I agree with you Shaq.  Each family shall have the freedom to choose the best health care for each individual families needs.  Each family is different and eat differently, so lets respect that.  We don;t eat meat in our house foe example.

*Shaq:* However, "there’s still some people that don’t wanna take it."

*Crush:*  Take what Shaq?

*Shaq:*  The Jab bro

*Crush: * Like me or my dd or wife or son?

*Shaq:*  Yes, crush.

*Crush:*  No one should be forced to inject that "JAB" or else lose their ability to earn a buck.  What say you Shaq?

*Shaq:*  You shouldn’t have to be forced to take something you don’t want.”

*Crush: * I agree, but should you get fired?

*Turner interrupts us:* I don't think people are being forced to take.....

*Crush & Shaq: * Are you sure?

*Turner:*  Well, there are some....There are, I mean, listed we have a *mandate at CBS*.  *CBS*,* has a vaccine mandate among workers.

Shaq: * That's forced.

*Crush:*  That's forced.

T*urner: *We have a mandate at CBS, but my, but my point...

*Shaq: * That's forced

*Turner:* Where I whole heartedly......

*Shaq:*  That's forced.....

*Turner:*  No, it's not forced

*Shaq:* It is forced.  Because if the man don;t take it, the man gonna get fired.....

*Crush: * Fired, lose small business, can't go to ball game, can;t go the Rams game, can't go see a show or some music.  Can't fly.  You can;t go play college soccer unless jabbed as of today.  If you obey, you can have access to it all.  That is forced folks and it's not right.  I pray for peace.  I have compassion on those who have lied and cheated through all this.  I forgive you, I do.  I am not perfect either and will not throw the first stone at you.  I just ask that you give up peacefully and let it go and then go away.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Looks like the reason they passed on the story might be that they did better fact-checking than FN did.
> 
> _The viral “Johns Hopkins study” about lockdowns was not the work of Johns Hopkins University, it was not peer-reviewed, and it was not written by epidemiologists. A number of researchers have also taken issue with the methods used in this study._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's What We Know About 'Johns Hopkins Study' on Lockdowns
> 
> 
> It's a non-peer reviewed working paper that has not been endorsed by the university.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


Then where's the study the says restrictions and lockdowns worked?  It's easy to criticize but hard to create.  Wouldn't you think if they had that evidence they would be shouting it from the rooftops to support their continued policies?  Sometimes its what you don't hear that's more important than what you do hear. You've been around long enough to understand that.

And to use some of your own medicine.








						Snopes Media Bias Rating
					

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of Snopes. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.




					www.allsides.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Then where's the study the says restrictions and lockdowns worked?  It's easy to criticize but hard to create.  Wouldn't you think if they had that evidence they would be shouting it from the rooftops to support their continued policies?  Sometimes its what you don't hear that's more important than what you do hear. You've been around long enough to understand that.
> 
> And to use some of your own medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Snopes Media Bias Rating
> 
> 
> Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of Snopes. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.allsides.com


Link inside the Snopes article --









						Lockdowns saved many lives and easing them is risky, say scientists
					

Lockdowns imposed to curb the spread of COVID-19 have saved millions of lives and easing them now carries high risks, according to two international studies published on Monday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Bubba

‘The case for masks became hugely stronger’: scientists admit their Covid mistakes
					

Being proved wrong lies at the heart of scientific progress. Here, experts reveal what they got wrong during the pandemic




					www.theguardian.com
				




Interesting article , not from some ring wing site.
Science changes people , how many stories of eggs being good for you then not. You gather info put out the best info you have. 

What i don't agree is relience on one person who is God like to some people. Keeping info out of public sphere to follow a agenda. Believing everyone is stupid and i will save you attitude..

From the beginning of this pandemic I have traveled never afraid , would go to unmasked states. In fact went to Grand Canyon had the park to ourselves .


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Can we all agree that mask shall be off the kids now at school?  Let's show compassion to the children.  This is not normal!
> 
> View attachment 12843


I seriously can’t understand the people who are angry at Ted Cruz and Rand Paul for defying Senate masking protocols, or Youngkin for going without a mask into a mask optional supermarket, but are ok with this. Hopefully it is a very small group.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Agree - definitely anecdotal.
> 
> Are you good with this headline?
> 
> CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo completely avoid Johns Hopkins study finding COVID lockdowns ineffective
> 
> 
> A new study concluding lockdowns 'should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument' was ignored by the vast majority of the liberal media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


I can't support a headline with the word "lockdown", because that word itself is too imprecise.   

I think of lockdown as the original "stay at home" orders.  The right uses it as shorthand for all restrictions intended to limit covid-19.  

The result of the ambiguity is a headline that means one thing to you and a different thing to me.  ( Philosophy majors can make the obvious Wittgenstein reference here, but they are wrong. )

The general concept that NYT refuses to cover certain news?  Sure.  I agree completely.

But Fox is in no place to raise the accusation.  It is the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I can't support a headline with the word "lockdown", because that word itself is too imprecise.
> 
> But Fox is in no place to raise the accusation.  It is the pot calling the kettle black.


No argument with the first point. As to your second point above, I’m not sure the “place” to raise the accusation still exists. The best we can do is one partisan publication calling out another partisan publication.


----------



## Desert Hound

Understanding data/risk.

Myself and others have said look at the data and use that.

It is worth repeating.

Some here don't understand risk, cost/benefit, etc.


_Those odds can be gauged from a study by researchers at the National Institutes of Health, published by the Centers for Disease Control. They *tracked more than 1 million vaccinated adults in America over most of last year*, including the period when the Delta variant was surging, and classified victims of Covid according to risk factors such as being over 65, being immunosuppressed, or suffering from diabetes or chronic diseases of the heart, kidney, lungs, liver or brain.

The researchers report that *none of the healthy people under 65 had a severe case of Covid* that required treatment in an intensive-care unit. Not a single one of these nearly 700,000 people died, and the risk was miniscule for most older people, too. Among vaccinated people over 65 without an underlying medical condition, only one person died. In all, there were 36 deaths, mostly among a small minority of older people with a multitude of comorbidities: the 3 percent of the sample that had at least four risk factors. *Among everyone else, a group that included elderly people with one or two chronic conditions, there were just eight deaths among more than 1.2 million people, so their risk of dying was about 1 in 150,000*.

--

Those are roughly the same odds that in the course of a year you will die in a fire, or that you’ll perish by falling down stairs. Going anywhere near automobiles is a bigger risk: you’re three times more likely during a given year to be killed while riding in a car, and also three times more likely to be a pedestrian casualty. The 150,000-to-1 odds of a Covid death are even longer than the odds over your lifetime of dying in an earthquake or being killed by lightning.

--

Of course, the threat of Covid is greater for unvaccinated adults, *but why should their personal decision to take that risk arouse so much angst among those who are safely vaccinated?* The original argument for vaccine mandates—that they were necessary to stop the spread—is obsolete, now that it’s clear that vaccination doesn’t prevent reinfection and transmission.

--_









						Understanding the Covid Odds | City Journal
					

If you’ve been vaccinated and still feel mortally threatened by the virus, please read this.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Today it was announced that Rogan was removing some of his content from Spotify, following an ongoing trend.


That's a Blatant LIE !

Spotify removed it.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Looks like the reason they passed on the story might be that they did better fact-checking than FN did.
> 
> _The viral “Johns Hopkins study” about lockdowns was not the work of Johns Hopkins University, it was not peer-reviewed, and it was not written by epidemiologists. A number of researchers have also taken issue with the methods used in this study._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's What We Know About 'Johns Hopkins Study' on Lockdowns
> 
> 
> It's a non-peer reviewed working paper that has not been endorsed by the university.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com




John Hopkins does have info for you.

Hemorrhoids | Johns Hopkins Medicine


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> No argument with the first point. As to your second point above, I’m not sure the “place” to raise the accusation still exists. The best we can do is one partisan publication calling out another partisan publication.


There are decent information sources on the right.  Fox just isn’t one of them.  The Economist could easily run a credible story on media blindspots like the one you mentioned.

I find the Fox hosts’ links to Trump even more damning than the CNN links to Cuomo.   You had hosts sending private messages to Trump asking him to knock it off, at the same time they were publicly blaming it all on antifa.  That’s not just a blindspot.  That’s deliberately lying to your viewers.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Can we all agree that mask shall be off the kids now at school?  Let's show compassion to the children.  This is not normal!
> 
> View attachment 12843


This is Exhibit A for the left's misguided belief that children should be protecting adults.  Crazy how we're living in an upside down world.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> That’s not just a blindspot.  That’s deliberately lying to your viewers.


Are you staying the CNN hasn’t also deliberately lied to its Viewers?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> There are decent information sources on the right.  Fox just isn’t one of them.  The Economist could easily run a credible story on media blindspots like the one you mentioned.
> 
> I find the Fox hosts’ links to Trump even more damning than the CNN links to Cuomo.   You had hosts sending private messages to Trump asking him to knock it off, at the same time they were publicly blaming it all on antifa.  That’s not just a blindspot.  That’s deliberately lying to your viewers.


Yes, that sucks - as do the lies CNN promoted about theories that COVID originated in a lab being debunked. They have also been running cover for Fauci's lies about gain-of-function. There have been numerous omissions of context in their reporting. That is what advocates do - not journalists. Context has been lacking from the beginning and with more data coming out it is becoming increasingly obvious that the practice of journalism is pretty much dead in real-time "reporting". CNN has consistently run cover for the lies and hypocrisies of our current leadership while endorsing the suppression of legitimate questions. Fox is on the other side of this but, like it or not, it is the only chance we have of understanding what the "other side" is thinking.

So, who gets their daily news from The Economist?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Are you staying the CNN hasn’t also deliberately lied to its Viewers?


Can't prove a negative, so maybe you could provide some examples?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> There are decent information sources on the right.  Fox just isn’t one of them.  The Economist could easily run a credible story on media blindspots like the one you mentioned.
> 
> I find the Fox hosts’ links to Trump even more damning than the CNN links to Cuomo.   You had hosts sending private messages to Trump asking him to knock it off, at the same time they were publicly blaming it all on antifa.  That’s not just a blindspot.  That’s deliberately lying to your viewers.


The Economist used to be a Bushian right leaning rag heavy on monetary policy.  They've tilted pretty left recently, and leaned very heavily into globalism and elitism.  I used to be a subscriber and it would be my mag of choice on airplane flights.  It's become pretty unreadable now.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Can't prove a negative, so maybe you could provide some examples?


English please….

Actually…never mind, I didn’t ask you…


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, who gets their daily news from The Economist?


The same people who fly Emirates or go off on holiday to the Maldives.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The Economist used to be a Bushian right leaning rag heavy on monetary policy.  They've tilted pretty left recently, and leaned very heavily into globalism and elitism.  I used to be a subscriber and it would be my mag of choice on airplane flights.  It's become pretty unreadable now.


The Economist is right down the middle and highly reliable (but maybe not from your viewpoint).









						Interactive Chart | Ad Fontes Media
					

Interactive Media Bias Chart® Discover our Interactive Media Bias Chart to see where your favorite news sources fall on the reliability and bias spectrum. Use the search boxes to find sources that aren’t displayed by default. 0 Total sources Use search box to find sources not displayed by...




					adfontesmedia.com


----------



## soccersc

Desert Hound said:


> Understanding data/risk.
> 
> Myself and others have said look at the data and use that.
> 
> It is worth repeating.
> 
> Some here don't understand risk, cost/benefit, etc.
> 
> 
> _Those odds can be gauged from a study by researchers at the National Institutes of Health, published by the Centers for Disease Control. They *tracked more than 1 million vaccinated adults in America over most of last year*, including the period when the Delta variant was surging, and classified victims of Covid according to risk factors such as being over 65, being immunosuppressed, or suffering from diabetes or chronic diseases of the heart, kidney, lungs, liver or brain.
> 
> The researchers report that *none of the healthy people under 65 had a severe case of Covid* that required treatment in an intensive-care unit. Not a single one of these nearly 700,000 people died, and the risk was miniscule for most older people, too. Among vaccinated people over 65 without an underlying medical condition, only one person died. In all, there were 36 deaths, mostly among a small minority of older people with a multitude of comorbidities: the 3 percent of the sample that had at least four risk factors. *Among everyone else, a group that included elderly people with one or two chronic conditions, there were just eight deaths among more than 1.2 million people, so their risk of dying was about 1 in 150,000*.
> 
> --
> 
> Those are roughly the same odds that in the course of a year you will die in a fire, or that you’ll perish by falling down stairs. Going anywhere near automobiles is a bigger risk: you’re three times more likely during a given year to be killed while riding in a car, and also three times more likely to be a pedestrian casualty. The 150,000-to-1 odds of a Covid death are even longer than the odds over your lifetime of dying in an earthquake or being killed by lightning.
> 
> --
> 
> Of course, the threat of Covid is greater for unvaccinated adults, *but why should their personal decision to take that risk arouse so much angst among those who are safely vaccinated?* The original argument for vaccine mandates—that they were necessary to stop the spread—is obsolete, now that it’s clear that vaccination doesn’t prevent reinfection and transmission.
> 
> --_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding the Covid Odds | City Journal
> 
> 
> If you’ve been vaccinated and still feel mortally threatened by the virus, please read this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org



I am really trying to wrap my head around why the persistence on mandating a Covid vaccine???? This is exactly how I feel "_*but why should their personal decision to take that risk arouse so much angst among those who are safely vaccinated?* "_

So, then I started to try and think what could possibly be reasons government wants vaccination so bad.  We know it doesn't stop the spread, so the only other defense I can imagine is covid is filling up the ICU's.  So looking at ICUs capacity during the middle of January was around 30% funny thing is, it is very difficult to find what the other 70% of patients include.  Dyspnea seems to be the top ICU admitter, but that covers so many conditions it is hard to quantify.  

Here is the most interesting fact....In 2019 Influenza A took up 34% of ICUs and in 2018 there was an article in the LA Times "Flu drives hospitals into warzone conditions"....what? They actually have pictures of triage tents set up.....So if ICU's have been in the same situation before and there has never been a Flu vaccine mandate, then why now? I really don't get how the government can continue these mandates, Science just doesn't support it????? Please help! 









						California hospitals look like a flu 'war zone'
					

Several hospitals in Southern California have set up emergency tents in their parking lots to treat the influx of flu patients as this year's deadly strand infects thousands.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				











						California hospitals face a 'war zone' of flu patients — and are setting up tents to treat them
					

California hospitals have had to scramble for more space and staff to keep up with the high numbers of patients showing up in the ER sick with a deadly strain of the flu.




					www.latimes.com
				








						ICU Admission and Mortality during Flu Season - Contemporary Approaches to Influenza A and B
					

Are you confident of your ability to quickly identify hospitalized flu patients at risk for a poor outcome?




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> The Economist is right down the middle and highly reliable (but maybe not from your viewpoint).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interactive Chart | Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> Interactive Media Bias Chart® Discover our Interactive Media Bias Chart to see where your favorite news sources fall on the reliability and bias spectrum. Use the search boxes to find sources that aren’t displayed by default. 0 Total sources Use search box to find sources not displayed by...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


With freedom comes responsibility, they don’t want the responsibility just the freedom and their idea of freedom is everyone do things their way. These people call themselves “conservatives” call themselves “rightwing”, etc. etc. but what they really are is just self centered twits looking to get their way regardless, “GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!”


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> With freedom comes responsibility, they don’t want the responsibility just the freedom and their idea of freedom is everyone do things their way. These people call themselves “conservatives” call themselves “rightwing”, etc. etc. but what they really are is just self centered twits looking to get their way regardless, “GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!”


You just described the AOC wing of the democrat party


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The Economist is right down the middle and highly reliable (but maybe not from your viewpoint).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interactive Chart | Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> Interactive Media Bias Chart® Discover our Interactive Media Bias Chart to see where your favorite news sources fall on the reliability and bias spectrum. Use the search boxes to find sources that aren’t displayed by default. 0 Total sources Use search box to find sources not displayed by...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


They have not been right down the middle for years. 

There are always various sides to stories. If a magazine consistently rights from one perspective they are not down the middle.


----------



## Brav520

The internal polls for Dems must be terrible 


#BREAKING California's indoor mask mandate will end on February 15th. 

The state is still asking unvaccinated to wear masks inside. 

Individual counties have the option to impose their own mask mandates if they choose to.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> They have not been right down the middle for years.
> 
> There are always various sides to stories. If a magazine consistently rights from one perspective they are not down the middle.


The Economist?  Show me.


----------



## crush

soccersc said:


> _*but why should their personal decision to take that risk arouse so much angst among those who are safely vaccinated?*_


*James Carville: *
"*I wish* what they’d do is *pass a law* to make you immune from liability if you *punch* some* unvaccinated person right in the face*, which I’d really like to do. If you ask me what’s my first reaction to you if you’re not vaccinated, you don’t have any medical reason not to be, *you’re a piece of s---*, OK?* I just want to punch you in the god----ed face*. That’s the way I look at these people," Carville said.

*"Agreed," *Hunt replied.

**


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *James Carville: *
> "*I wish* what they’d do is *pass a law* to make you immune from liability if you *punch* some* unvaccinated person right in the face*, which I’d really like to do. If you ask me what’s my first reaction to you if you’re not vaccinated, you don’t have any medical reason not to be, *you’re a piece of s---*, OK?* I just want to punch you in the god----ed face*. That’s the way I look at these people," Carville said.
> 
> *"Agreed," *Hunt replied.
> 
> *View attachment 12847*


Aw, someone only likes hyperbole when it goes one way.

I can't wait to see how you manage Spain's mandatory vaccination requirements.  Maybe you can do what Novak Djokovic cannot.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Aw, someone only likes hyperbole when it goes one way.
> 
> I can't wait to see how you manage Spain's mandatory vaccination requirements.  Maybe you can do what Novak Djokovic cannot.


I'm not going to Spain.  Have you been? Look, let's call it a truce.  5 years is so long and I all done with kiddy soccer.  I hope the money has treated you well sir.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> The internal polls for Dems must be terrible
> 
> 
> #BREAKING California's indoor mask mandate will end on February 15th.
> 
> The state is still asking unvaccinated to wear masks inside.
> 
> Individual counties have the option to impose their own mask mandates if they choose to.


 The School mandates, though, continue right?  I'm sure LA County will be the last to cave....

New Jersey and Connecticut announced they were dropping shortly their school mask mandates.   Either the polls are horrible or the Abrams thing is more of a disaster than the initial media reports lead us to believe.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The School mandates, though, continue right?  I'm sure LA County will be the last to cave....
> 
> New Jersey and Connecticut announced they were dropping shortly their school mask mandates.   Either the polls are horrible or the Abrams thing is more of a disaster than the initial media reports lead us to believe.


That must be it.  Nothing to do with the steep drop in cases/hospitalizations/deaths per day.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> The School mandates, though, continue right?  I'm sure LA County will be the last to cave....
> 
> New Jersey and Connecticut announced they were dropping shortly their school mask mandates.   Either the polls are horrible or the Abrams thing is more of a disaster than the initial media reports lead us to believe.


i assume the school mandates still exist, and I could see LA County extending it, but and this is just my opinion it would certainly help the Dems on a national level if a very large city ( like LA or NY) would drop most of their mandates


----------



## crush

Those of you who have been jabbed + booster, you don;t have to wear a mask.  Congrats to you guys.  All unvaxed and all kids K-12 have to wear mask still.  Teachers do not because their adults and have been vazed, that's why you see teachers maskless.  Sound fair?  These are odd rules but I will obey the rules and wear me mask around town.  I hope the kids can live a mask free life soon.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That must be it.  Nothing to do with the steep drop in cases/hospitalizations/deaths per day.


Well, if that's the case glad to know LA County dropped it's mandates too!!! 

They didn't???

So I guess politics has something to do with it.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well, if that's the case glad to know LA County dropped it's mandates too!!!
> 
> They didn't???
> 
> So I guess politics has something to do with it.


Hospitalizations are falling, but still high.   LA is still at about 2/3 of last winter’s peak.

Perfectly reasonable to keep the mask rules in LA.  

The politics are on the other side.  Newsom is letting the state rule lapse so he can say he kept his promise to make it temporary.  But the death and hospitalization data does not yet support it.


----------



## crush




----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Hospitalizations are falling, but still high.   LA is still at about 2/3 of last winter’s peak.
> 
> Perfectly reasonable to keep the mask rules in LA.
> 
> The politics are on the other side.  Newsom is letting the state rule lapse so he can say he kept his promise to make it temporary.  But the death and hospitalization data does not yet support it.


Ah, so politics.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Hospitalizations are falling, but still high.   LA is still at about 2/3 of last winter’s peak.
> 
> Perfectly reasonable to keep the mask rules in LA.
> 
> The politics are on the other side.  Newsom is letting the state rule lapse so he can say he kept his promise to make it temporary.  But the death and hospitalization data does not yet support it.


Are they high for flu season? They need a better standard than "last winter's peak". How about looking at the range of hospital capacity for the prior 20 flu seasons?

Also, is anyone hearing anything about initiatives to require masks during flu season when hospital capacity is below a certain level? It wouldn't surprise me to see that in LA.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> 2018 ....LA Times "Flu drives hospitals into warzone conditions"....


Papers are gonna sell papers.  But there is an interesting compare/contrast in stacking up something like "peak week" for the 2017/2018 flu season in LA county (which did have a couple bad weeks as those things go, at least in how we viewed things pre covid) vs a standard joe/schmoe week on the tail end of omicron in LA county to get a sense of scale.  

Table 1 here, "peak week" figures for instance: http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/acd/docs/Flu/Season17-18/SeasonSummary.pdf. 

Last week LA country covid cases/deaths:  http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/data/#


----------



## crush

Why are US life insurance companies revealing an overwhelming unexplained increase (40%) in “all-cause deaths” amongst 18 to 49-year-olds.

Is anyone else following this story?


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> The internal polls for Dems must be terrible
> 
> 
> #BREAKING California's indoor mask mandate will end on February 15th.
> 
> The state is still asking unvaccinated to wear masks inside.
> 
> Individual counties have the option to impose their own mask mandates if they choose to.





Grace T. said:


> The School mandates, though, continue right?  I'm sure LA County will be the last to cave....
> 
> New Jersey and Connecticut announced they were dropping shortly their school mask mandates.   Either the polls are horrible or the Abrams thing is more of a disaster than the initial media reports lead us to believe.


I really couldn't care less about the adult indoor mask mandate although it's completely frivolous.  Come talk to me when children don't have to wear masks in school.  I'm not going to sugarcoat it, anyone who thinks children should be wearing masks at school is a stone cold f'ing idiot.

Children don't vote, but their parents do.  We've seen the left's true colors during the pandemic.  I hope they get completely smoked at midterms. I'm not normally a vengeful person but what most Dem's have done to children is completely inexcusable and I hope they get taken to the woodshed in November.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Are they high for flu season? They need a better standard than "last winter's peak". How about looking at the range of hospital capacity for the prior 20 flu seasons?


Goalie answers your question.   2016-17 had 77 flu deaths in LA county.  2017-18 had 278.  61 in the worst week.

LA county is currently averaging 72 covid deaths per _day_. 

So, yes.  High for flu season.  For deaths, one day of covid is about as bad a year of a mild flu, or a week of a bad flu.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

watfly said:


> I really couldn't care less about the adult indoor mask mandate although it's completely frivolous.  Come talk to me when children don't have to wear masks in school.  I'm not going to sugarcoat it, anyone who thinks children should be wearing masks at school is a stone cold f'ing idiot.
> 
> Children don't vote, but their parents do.  We've seen the left's true colors during the pandemic.  I hope they get completely smoked at midterms. I'm not normally a vengeful person but what most Dem's have done to children is completely inexcusable and I hope they get taken to the woodshed in November.


Just speaking of California as I don’t know the politics of N.J.,N.Y. or other democrat run states, the Teachers Unions have been behind the continued masking of children. They have Newsom in their pocket through massive campaign donations and basically dictate to him what this state will do with children while in school. They don’t care what parents or children want or what the data or science says. Democrats need to be held accountable for their reliance on union money and be voted out one by one for not doing the right thing by our children. It is dirty politics. I just don’t understand the reason behind teachers unions wanting to muzzle our kids and why teachers don’t stand up to THEIR union and do what is right.


----------



## dad4

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> Just speaking of California as I don’t know the politics of N.J.,N.Y. or other democrat run states, the Teachers Unions have been behind the continued masking of children. They have Newsom in their pocket through massive campaign donations and basically dictate to him what this state will do with children while in school. They don’t care what parents or children want or what the data or science says. Democrats need to be held accountable for their reliance on union money and be voted out one by one for not doing the right thing by our children. It is dirty politics. I just don’t understand the reason behind teachers unions wanting to muzzle our kids and why teachers don’t stand up to THEIR union and do what is right.


How many people in other professions are required to work in the same room as 30 unmasked coworkers?  

Teachers already catch every single cold and flu because parents insist on sending sick kids to school.  That’s enough.  Don’t expect them to rise up and demand that the people in their workspace be permitted to ignore public health guidance.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How many people in other professions are required to work in the same room as 30 unmasked coworkers?
> 
> Teachers already catch every single cold and flu because parents insist on sending sick kids to school.  That’s enough.  Don’t expect them to rise up and demand that the people in their workspace be permitted to ignore public health guidance.


1. meatpackers, warehouse workers, postal workers, soldiers, restaurant workers, and with open floor designs, even office workers.
2. it's not like the masks, particularly given the length of the school day, and particularly given the cloth masks, really do anything.
3. aren't the teachers vaccinated?  aren't they protected against serious illness?  We're all going to catch it so what are we delaying here?
4. Nice that you are neglecting the deaf kids, the kids with sensory issues such as ADHD or autism, or the kids with reading delays.  Talk about selfishness.  F those kids right?
5. Given the rise of mental health issues in the under 18 set, and the fact that this has gone on 2 years, there's a lot to be said to return some normalcy to their child hood, and facial communication is an important part of that.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> How many people in other professions are required to work in the same room as 30 unmasked coworkers?
> 
> Teachers already catch every single cold and flu because parents insist on sending sick kids to school.  That’s enough.  Don’t expect them to rise up and demand that the people in their workspace be permitted to ignore public health guidance.


If the teachers are vaccinated, what does it matter?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> 1. meatpackers, warehouse workers, postal workers, soldiers, restaurant workers, and with open floor designs, even office workers.


I thought all those workers were vaccinated (or frequently tested) and masked.  Was I misinformed?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Goalie answers your question.   2016-17 had 77 flu deaths in LA county.  2017-18 had 278.  61 in the worst week.
> 
> LA county is currently averaging 72 covid deaths per _day_.
> 
> So, yes.  High for flu season.  For deaths, one day of covid is about as bad a year of a mild flu, or a week of a bad flu.


No, he didn't. I asked for hospitalization capacity data. If we are getting data on deaths, it should be all deaths broken down by category. In this case, simply all deaths and deaths attributed to COVID would be enough context to make the case. Data without context will invariably be misinterpreted.


----------



## Brav520

Teachers do not have a mandatory vaccine requirement ( at least in my district) the ones who are not vaccinated have to get tested a certain number of times per week


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I thought all those workers were vaccinated (or frequently tested) and masked.  Was I misinformed?


Yes, you are. There is no employee mandate in California.  It depends on the business and the local jursidiction (e.g., West Hollywood).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at least for restaurant, in the City of Los Angeles my understanding is that to eat indoors you have to vaccinated, but there is no such requirement for workers.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> hospitalization capacity data.


Total ICU suspect you could find that.  Total care capacity probably harder. Existing infrastructure and procedures have been transformed considerably in the last two years.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If the teachers are vaccinated, what does it matter?


Sure.  Because the vaccine is not 100% effective.  Vaccinated and boosted is more like 85% effective.  The other 15% matters.

Like it or not, a lot of teachers are middle aged and overweight.  They have a good reason to want to avoid covid.  

And, if you want to get rid of all the fat teachers, be prepared to say goodbye to upper division STEM courses for your kid.  The 58 year old spherical physics teacher may be the only one left who can teach the AP.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Because the vaccine is not 100% effective.  Vaccinated and boosted is more like 85% effective.  The other 15% matters.
> 
> Like it or not, a lot of teachers are middle aged and overweight.  They have a good reason to want to avoid covid.
> 
> And, if you want to get rid of all the fat teachers, be prepared to say goodbye to upper division STEM courses for your kid.  The 58 year old spherical physics teacher may be the only one left who can teach the AP.


So then are you saying it will continue to be like this forever?  Because its never going to be 100%.


----------



## Brav520

There is a conflict going on, you have some dem politicians and almost all the major press organizations talking about an off ramp for kids masking 

and you have the head of one of the largest teachers Union , Randi Weingarten who today said setting standards on transmission rates and vaccination rates in order to lift masking


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yes, you are. There is no employee mandate in California.  It depends on the business and the local jursidiction (e.g., West Hollywood).
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at least for restaurant, in the City of Los Angeles my understanding is that to eat indoors you have to vaccinated, but there is no such requirement for workers.


Everywhere I have been in San Diego County or Sacramento County, all employees were masked.  The restaurant where my wife helps out her friend the owner on occasion even requires their delivery drivers to be masked.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> So then are you saying it will continue to be like this forever?  Because its never going to be 100%.


Forever?  No.  I think we will be down to pre-delta levels by early April.

But I have no problem at all with mask mandates until then.  Especially for adults.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Because the vaccine is not 100% effective.  Vaccinated and boosted is more like 85% effective.  The other 15% matters.
> 
> Like it or not, a lot of teachers are middle aged and overweight.  They have a good reason to want to avoid covid.
> 
> And, if you want to get rid of all the fat teachers, be prepared to say goodbye to upper division STEM courses for your kid.  The 58 year old spherical physics teacher may be the only one left who can teach the AP.


Sooo kids suffer for the sake of adults who can’t/won’t take care of themselves?

Maybe a health mandate is in order over masking kids.

What was that obesity factor amongst severe Covid affects again?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Forever?  No.  I think we will be down to pre-delta levels by early April.
> 
> But I have no problem at all with mask mandates until then.  Especially for adults.


So for schools you'd say by the end of the year there will be no mask?

My problem is even though California had masking rules implemented before the Dec/Jan spike how much did it really help? None...They aren't that great if we just went through the biggest outbreak in the last 2 years with masking restrictions in place.  They just can't admit they got it wrong so they are holding onto that rope real tight


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Everywhere I have been in San Diego County or Sacramento County, all employees were masked.  The restaurant where my wife helps out her friend the owner on occasion even requires their delivery drivers to be masked.


With the mask mandates being dropped, this will be up to the counties and individual employers (yet kids are still being held to a higher standard despite being a lower risk).

Los Angeles County still has an office problem (as does New York City).  You can't get the workers back into the offices (where many don't want to go back anyways given how comfy womfy they are in the PJs all day) on a large scale while the mask mandates are in place, because masks signal things are still not safe and we need to keep our distance.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sooo kids suffer for the sake of adults who can’t/won’t take care of themselves?


It's certainly consistent with what has been done so far.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> So for schools you'd say by the end of the year there will be no mask?
> 
> My problem is even though California had masking rules implemented before the Dec/Jan spike how much did it really help? None...They aren't that great if we just went through the biggest outbreak in the last 2 years with masking restrictions in place.  They just can't admit they got it wrong so they are holding onto that rope real tight


I think mask restrictions in CA will be done by May 01, and will come back with the next variant- if one manages to grow here.

Masks work just fine if you wear them.   Mask mandates that you ignore every time you have friends over?  That doesn’t work so well.


----------



## soccersc

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sooo kids suffer for the sake of adults who can’t/won’t take care of themselves?
> 
> Maybe a health mandate is in order over masking kids.
> 
> What was that obesity factor amongst severe Covid affects again?


@dad4 helps me understand how backwards so of those that oppose normalcy.  Obese people are a big problem with covid

People with obesity are 46% more at risk of getting Covid-19, according to a study from August. It found that they are also more at risk of getting really sick, facing a 113% higher chance of being hospitalized, a 74% higher risk of needing to be treated in the ICU and -- perhaps most troubling of all -- a 48% increased risk of death.   https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/03/health/covid-weight-loss-wellness/index.html

Old people I can understand, they can't help being old, but really 113% higher chance of being hospitalized for being Obese and we are trying to vaccinate ALL children and have them wear mask all day for people who failed to take care of themselves....that's ridiculous and so unfair for the kids...I really don't get how people like @dad4 can actually advocate for that


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I think mask restrictions in CA will be done by May 01, and will come back with the next variant- if one manages to grow here.
> 
> Masks work just fine if you wear them.   Mask mandates that you ignore every time you have friends over?  That doesn’t work so well.


There will be another variant, it's inevitable. So, with that premise, you would be alright with kids continuing to wear mask at school forever? They have already messed up so many kids up by going virtual last year, now you want teachers and kids to cover their face every time they are in school? Think deeply about that, you really think that will not affect kids in any way?


----------



## thirteenknots

soccersc said:


> I am really trying to wrap my head around why the persistence on mandating a Covid vaccine???? This is exactly how I feel "_*but why should their personal decision to take that risk arouse so much angst among those who are safely vaccinated?* "_
> 
> So, then I started to try and think what could possibly be reasons government wants vaccination so bad.  We know it doesn't stop the spread, so the only other defense I can imagine is covid is filling up the ICU's.  So looking at ICUs capacity during the middle of January was around 30% funny thing is, it is very difficult to find what the other 70% of patients include.  Dyspnea seems to be the top ICU admitter, but that covers so many conditions it is hard to quantify.
> 
> Here is the most interesting fact....In 2019 Influenza A took up 34% of ICUs and in 2018 there was an article in the LA Times "Flu drives hospitals into warzone conditions"....what? They actually have pictures of triage tents set up.....So if ICU's have been in the same situation before and there has never been a Flu vaccine mandate, then why now? I really don't get how the government can continue these mandates, Science just doesn't support it????? Please help!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California hospitals look like a flu 'war zone'
> 
> 
> Several hospitals in Southern California have set up emergency tents in their parking lots to treat the influx of flu patients as this year's deadly strand infects thousands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California hospitals face a 'war zone' of flu patients — and are setting up tents to treat them
> 
> 
> California hospitals have had to scramble for more space and staff to keep up with the high numbers of patients showing up in the ER sick with a deadly strain of the flu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICU Admission and Mortality during Flu Season - Contemporary Approaches to Influenza A and B
> 
> 
> Are you confident of your ability to quickly identify hospitalized flu patients at risk for a poor outcome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com





The Clues are right there for to see.

SARS-COVID 2 -19 was a tool used to:
1. Shut down the vibrant Trump admin USA economy that booming.
2. Covertly steal an election thru drop boxes/mail in ballots/midnight dumps.
3. Inject EVERY human on the planet with a traceable harmful substance.
( Think #3 is a joke, see/read below. )



graphenes_health_effects_summarised_in_new_guide_48si8_en.pdf (europa.eu) 

European Heath Report on GO effects on Humans.

NIOSHTIC-2 Publications Search - 20041340 - Graphene oxide, but not fullerenes,
 targets immunoproteasomes and suppresses antigen presentation by dendritic cells. (cdc.gov)


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sooo kids suffer for the sake of adults who can’t/won’t take care of themselves?
> 
> Maybe a health mandate is in order over masking kids.
> 
> What was that obesity factor amongst severe Covid affects again?


Adults who won’t take care of themselves are absolutely the problem.   We’d have a lot less pressure on kids if remaining adults would mask up, get vaccinated, and lose some weight.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I think mask restrictions in CA will be done by May 01, and will come back with the next variant- if one manages to grow here.
> 
> Masks work just fine if you wear them.   Mask mandates that you ignore every time you have friends over?  That doesn’t work so well.


I think it was over a year ago that I posted that masks work and mandates don't.


----------



## thirteenknots

Edit:

The Clues are right there for all to see.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Adults who won’t take care of themselves are absolutely the problem.   We’d have a lot less pressure on kids if remaining adults would mask up, get vaccinated, and lose some weight.


Wow. I cannot believe you posted that.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Edit:
> 
> The Clues are right there for all to see.


Didn't help.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> I think it was over a year ago that I posted that masks work and mandates don't.


Hey Government Schill Adam Espola Schiff, go read some more Sal Alinsky.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Didn't help.


It did.

The Truth hurts.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

soccersc said:


> @dad4 helps me understand how backwards so of those that oppose normalcy.  Obese people are a big problem with covid
> 
> People with obesity are 46% more at risk of getting Covid-19, according to a study from August. It found that they are also more at risk of getting really sick, facing a 113% higher chance of being hospitalized, a 74% higher risk of needing to be treated in the ICU and -- perhaps most troubling of all -- a 48% increased risk of death.   https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/03/health/covid-weight-loss-wellness/index.html
> 
> Old people I can understand, they can't help being old, but really 113% higher chance of being hospitalized for being Obese and we are trying to vaccinate ALL children and have them wear mask all day for people who failed to take care of themselves....that's ridiculous and so unfair for the kids...I really don't get how people like @dad4 can actually advocate for that


I can solve all public teachers concerns around safety with one simple solution. Provide parents with school choice vouchers giving them the freedom to pick the best education pathway for their children. Before you know it the need for public school, public school teachers and their unions will be non-existent.  Now public school teachers who feel so much risk to face a child without a mask can find a new calling and those who want to continue work in education can with a private institution. My guess is if parents had a choice and given back their tax dollars to spend on the best education for their children they wouldn’t pick a public school that barely meets standards of learning and shrouds every subject in race.


----------



## Soccermaverick

thirteenknots said:


> The Clues are right there for to see.
> 
> SARS-COVID 2 -19 was a tool used to:
> 1. Shut down the vibrant Trump admin USA economy that booming.
> 2. Covertly steal an election thru drop boxes/mail in ballots/midnight dumps.
> 3. Inject EVERY human on the planet with a traceable harmful substance.
> ( Think #3 is a joke, see/read below. )
> 
> View attachment 12857
> 
> graphenes_health_effects_summarised_in_new_guide_48si8_en.pdf (europa.eu)
> 
> European Heath Report on GO effects on Humans.
> 
> NIOSHTIC-2 Publications Search - 20041340 - Graphene oxide, but not fullerenes,
> targets immunoproteasomes and suppresses antigen presentation by dendritic cells. (cdc.gov)
> 
> View attachment 12858
> 
> View attachment 12859
> 
> View attachment 12860


Video of Your mom is asking you to pick up some drinks on the way home



http://imgur.com/a/TrAe5sr


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> How many people in other professions are required to work in the same room as 30 unmasked coworkers?
> 
> Teachers already catch every single cold and flu because parents insist on sending sick kids to school.  That’s enough.  Don’t expect them to rise up and demand that the people in their workspace be permitted to ignore public health guidance.


So we put the burden on children and not adults...thats just fucked up...no two ways about.


----------



## soccersc

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> I can solve all public teachers concerns around safety with one simple solution. Provide parents with school choice vouchers giving them the freedom to pick the best education pathway for their children. Before you know it the need for public school, public school teachers and their unions will be non-existent.  Now public school teachers who feel so much risk to face a child without a mask can find a new calling and those who want to continue work in education can with a private institution. My guess is if parents had a choice and given back their tax dollars to spend on the best education for their children they wouldn’t pick a public school that barely meets standards of learning and shrouds every subject in race.


That's so true!!!!!


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I think mask restrictions in CA will be done by May 01, and will come back with the next variant- if one manages to grow here.
> 
> Masks work just fine if you wear them.   Mask mandates that you ignore every time you have friends over?  That doesn’t work so well.


Even CNN is starting to realize mask aren't needed.  @dad4 you are still holding the line...thata boy 








						CNN medical analyst supports Democrat-led states dropping school mask mandates: 'The science has changed'
					

CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen appeared to change her tune on the implementation of government imposed coronavirus restrictions, contrasting her previous support for restrictions that many felt were unnecessary or excessive.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So we put the burden on children and not adults...thats just fucked up...no two ways about.


We agree it is f’ed up.  We just don’t agree what it would mean for adults to step up and shoulder their burden.

I don’t see how an unmasked or unvaccinated adult has any right to point fingers about the burdens on kids.  There is something they could to to take part of that burden, and they are not doing it.


----------



## NorCalDad

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> I can solve all public teachers concerns around safety with one simple solution. Provide parents with school choice vouchers giving them the freedom to pick the best education pathway for their children. Before you know it the need for public school, public school teachers and their unions will be non-existent.  Now public school teachers who feel so much risk to face a child without a mask can find a new calling and those who want to continue work in education can with a private institution. My guess is if parents had a choice and given back their tax dollars to spend on the best education for their children they wouldn’t pick a public school that barely meets standards of learning and shrouds every subject in race.


Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber....


----------



## espola

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> I can solve all public teachers concerns around safety with one simple solution. Provide parents with school choice vouchers giving them the freedom to pick the best education pathway for their children. Before you know it the need for public school, public school teachers and their unions will be non-existent.  Now public school teachers who feel so much risk to face a child without a mask can find a new calling and those who want to continue work in education can with a private institution. My guess is if parents had a choice and given back their tax dollars to spend on the best education for their children they wouldn’t pick a public school that barely meets standards of learning and shrouds every subject in race.


Race?  You mean like they teach math with those Arabic numerals and Hindu zero?


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber....


What's dumb about it?  Hyperbolic maybe, but not dumb.  I'm 100% in favor of school vouchers.  My kids went to an elementary school in SDUSD, it was a magnet school (for PE of all things) so kids could choice in.  So many kids choiced in from shitty schools that the district board member from the shitty schools complained and got our schools magnet taken away.  So instead of stepping up and fixing their shitty schools they punished our school.  That's our California public schools system.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> We agree it is f’ed up.  We just don’t agree what it would mean for adults to step up and shoulder their burden.
> 
> I don’t see how an unmasked or unvaccinated adult has any right to point fingers about the burdens on kids.  There is something they could to to take part of that burden, and they are not doing it.


What burden is it exactly they need to take on?  The teachers have been offered vaccines and boosters.  So have the parents.  Do you believe in vaccination?  What's the issue?  Why are we punishing kids for adults who refuse to protect themselves (excluding of course those who already have natural immunity)?  Or are you still clinging to zero covid?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We agree it is f’ed up.  We just don’t agree what it would mean for adults to step up and shoulder their burden.
> 
> I don’t see how an unmasked or unvaccinated adult has any right to point fingers about the burdens on kids.  There is something they could to to take part of that burden, and they are not doing it.


Fascinating rationalization.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> What's dumb about it?  Hyperbolic maybe, but not dumb.  I'm 100% in favor of school vouchers.  My kids went to an elementary school in SDUSD, it was a magnet school (for PE of all things) so kids could choice in.  So many kids choiced in from shitty schools that the district board member from the shitty schools complained and got our schools magnet taken away.  So instead of stepping up and fixing their shitty schools they punished our school.  That's our California public schools system.


I really shouldn't have to explain why school vouchers are a bad idea, but why don't you start here: https://lmgtfy.app/?q=why+are+school+vouchers+bad


----------



## soccersc

Grace T. said:


> What burden is it exactly they need to take on?  The teachers have been offered vaccines and boosters.  So have the parents.  Do you believe in vaccination?  What's the issue?  Why are we punishing kids for adults who refuse to protect themselves (excluding of course those who already have natural immunity)?  Or are you still clinging to zero covid?


HAHA...@dad4 is, as the kids would say, is AFK, he is running out of data and any sort of support for his rash thinking.  He is like so many in office that just can't admit they were wrong, he's so entrenched in his way of thinking, he can't dig his way out.  @dad4 science has always changed throughout history, the science has changed here, don't be a flat earther


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I really couldn't care less about the adult indoor mask mandate although it's completely frivolous.  Come talk to me when children don't have to wear masks in school.  I'm not going to sugarcoat it, anyone who thinks children should be wearing masks at school is a stone cold f'ing idiot.
> 
> Children don't vote, but their parents do.  We've seen the left's true colors during the pandemic.  I hope they get completely smoked at midterms. I'm not normally a vengeful person but what most Dem's have done to children is completely inexcusable and I hope they get taken to the woodshed in November.


Within the context of implementing public health policy, child mask wearing has the least impact.  Imagine if we spent as much energy into getting seniors boosted.  

It's a joke that we've done so much hand wringing over masks in schools (and healthy ulittle covid vaccination).  Unfortunately fear and control is a thing... Mabye some people get a kick of being scared.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Fascinating rationalization.


I was thinking the same thing…


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I really shouldn't have to explain why school vouchers are a bad idea, but why don't you start here: https://lmgtfy.app/?q=why+are+school+vouchers+bad


Weird.  When I do that the top responses are from websites that have progressive in the name. In fact top was from "progressive.org".  When I Google search "why are school vouchers good"  I get a variety of sources including independent educational websites.  Since you're not willing to articulate your position but just instead unleash the "dumb" ad hominem it leads me to believe you are punch drunk on the blue kool-aid.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> What burden is it exactly they need to take on?  The teachers have been offered vaccines and boosters.  So have the parents.  Do you believe in vaccination?  What's the issue?  Why are we punishing kids for adults who refuse to protect themselves (excluding of course those who already have natural immunity)?  Or are you still clinging to zero covid?


It seems BTW California and NY plan to do the exact opposite.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491165243669901312


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Because the vaccine is not 100% effective.  Vaccinated and boosted is more like 85% effective.  The other 15% matters.
> 
> Like it or not, a lot of teachers are middle aged and overweight.  They have a good reason to want to avoid covid.
> 
> And, if you want to get rid of all the fat teachers, be prepared to say goodbye to upper division STEM courses for your kid.  The 58 year old spherical physics teacher may be the only one left who can teach the AP.


you crack me up.  so only fat teachers teach STEM? Back to eradication? 

Besides, just boost away, no reason for healthy children to be vaccinated.  But wait, even vaccinated children can transmit.  So....we have a classroom of healthy children that have to be masked to protect a double jabbed and boosted overweight educator?  Yea, that sounds about right.  The murica we all want to live in.

This thread just needs to die.  Science and logic has left the building, especially for those who are house  bound.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I think mask restrictions in CA will be done by May 01, and will come back with the next variant- if one manages to grow here.
> 
> Masks work just fine if you wear them.   Mask mandates that you ignore every time you have friends over?  That doesn’t work so well.


which masks work again?


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> HAHA...@dad4 is, as the kids would say, is AFK, he is running out of data and any sort of support for his rash thinking.  He is like so many in office that just can't admit they were wrong, he's so entrenched in his way of thinking, he can't dig his way out.  @dad4 science has always changed throughout history, the science has changed here, don't be a flat earther


For someone who accuses me of having no data, you didn’t put much data in your post.

Some data for you.  Unvaccinated people near me are testing positive at six times the rate of the vaccinated.






						COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
					






					covid19.sccgov.org
				




If you multiply it out, the 15% of people who are not vaccinated are responsible for over 50% of all transmission.  (For SCC)

Ok.  Your turn.  Do you have any real data, or just trash talk?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> We agree it is f’ed up.  We just don’t agree what it would mean for adults to step up and shoulder their burden.
> 
> I don’t see how an unmasked or unvaccinated adult has any right to point fingers about the burdens on kids.  There is something they could to to take part of that burden, and they are not doing it.


But if you are vaxxed and boosted, still point fingers at the kids?  Who don't need to be vaxxed?  

what are we protecting from anymore?  Isn't it great how public health directives mean absolutely nothing anymore.  Just people diggin in, grasping on to old data to justify something..or maybe holding on to power..or maybe to help quell their fear?


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> which masks work again?


N95.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Weird.  When I do that the top responses are from websites that have progressive in the name. In fact top was from "progressive.org".  When I Google search "why are school vouchers good"  I get a variety of sources including independent educational websites.  Since you're not willing to articulate your position but just instead unleash the "dumb" ad hominem it leads me to believe you are punch drunk on the blue kool-aid.


Nah, minds aren't being changed in this forum....not going to bother.  This is a beast of a topic that deserves its own off topic thread.  But at least you clicked on the link -- perhaps you even read something.  Baby steps.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> N95.


absolutely, if worn correctly.  It's  challenge for professionals to wear them correctly for long periods of time - won't work for our children.  If teachers and others are fearful, they can wear them.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Nah, minds aren't being changed in this forum....not going to bother.  This is a beast of a topic that deserves its own off topic thread.  But at least you clicked on the link -- perhaps you even read something.  Baby steps.


So you can expend the effort to respond with the ad hominem but can't add a sentence or two for the basis for your opinion.  Got it.  Their are pros and cons to school vouchers.  Studies have shown they provide positive benefits in educational improvement, although probably not as significantly as many of us would like.  I'm pro-choice in all respects, something the left was until they decided they knew what's best for everyone.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> So you can expend the effort to respond with the ad hominem but can't add a sentence or two for the basis for your opinion.  Got it.  Their are pros and cons to school vouchers.  Studies have shown they provide positive benefits in educational improvement, although probably not as significantly as many of us would like.  I'm pro-choice in all respects, something the left was until they decided they knew what's best for everyone.


Studies?


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> absolutely, if worn correctly.  It's  challenge for professionals to wear them correctly for long periods of time - won't work for our children.  If teachers and others are fearful, they can wear them.


Where do you get the idea that a poorly fitted N95 mask is equivalent to no mask?

I understand that it is an appealing argument.  After all, it absolves you of all responsibility.  You get to go maskless because you haven’t had the special training.

But it is also completely full of shit, logically.  We can do a web search for papers on the effectiveness of N95 masks when worn without training.  We both know the papers won’t say “same as no mask.”


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> For someone who accuses me of having no data, you didn’t put much data in your post.
> 
> Some data for you.  Unvaccinated people near me are testing positive at six times the rate of the vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19.sccgov.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you multiply it out, the 15% of people who are not vaccinated are responsible for over 50% of all transmission.  (For SCC)
> 
> Ok.  Your turn.  Do you have any real data, or just trash talk?


* "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain*

You can try to spin the numbers however you want, it doesn't change reality.  If 50% of the transmission comes from 15% of the people than how many people are obese since they account for 110% of those hospitalized and 50% of the cases?  You can manipulate the numbers however you like, but that doesn't make it truth.  More importantly, how accurate is the case count actually?  The third testing company is being sued this week for falsifying test and not marking the test with proper names.  

Back to the numbers...how you can definitively say that the vaccinated didn't spread it at a given rate if people don't know exactly when or how they contracted the virus? 

Reality is in front of you, don't hide behind the numbers when it is clear what is going on









						COVID Testing Company Faked or Delayed Results, Lawsuit Says
					

An Illinois-based COVID-19 testing company with at least 13 testing sites in Washington state faked or delayed results, lied to patients, and failed to store test samples properly, according to a lawsuit filed Monday by Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Where do you get the idea that a poorly fitted N95 mask is equivalent to no mask?
> 
> I understand that it is an appealing argument.  After all, it absolves you of all responsibility.  You get to go maskless because you haven’t had the special training.
> 
> But it is also completely full of shit, logically.  We can do a web search for papers on the effectiveness of N95 masks when worn without training.  We both know the papers won’t say “same as no mask.”


You know as well as I do that N95s aren't recommended for children and many of the KN95s in children's sizes are counterfeit.

And again, what are we trying to protect here?  If the teacher is worried the teacher can wear the N95 and the teacher can get vaxxed.

p.s. it never fails but every time you get backed into a corner you always lash out....


----------



## Desert Hound

Some thoughts.....about the sudden changes...regarding masks, lockdowns, restrictions, etc. 


> _We [CNN "science analysts"] will just repeat what the "conspiracy theorists" said and were banned for the last 2 years._


_--
How convenient. The science has changed on the incandescently unpopular policy to which lefty politicians and technocrats have been ideologically clinging, just as voter sentiment was hardening in the runup to a national election. *Sometimes in politics you just get lucky!*_

---


> _Weird. "I trust the science" has been the go-to moral response to questioning CDC policy. Now we're told the science can change. Are *we still not allowed to question CDC policy?*_


---

I_t's a simple, basic point -- so basic that even Bill Maher has tumbled on to it.

Whenever these guys are caught being wrong, for the hundredth time, they claim, "*Well, science is an inexact science, you know. Science changes and we learn more."*

They say that retrospectively, looking backwards, to explain away their errors.

But what do they say in the moment? In the all-important vital *present*?

In the present, in the Fierce Urgency of *Now* -- when we could, hypothetically, debate and change policies -- they insist that the science is absolutely settled and foolproof and beyond any question or quibble.

Futhermore, they literally organize smear campaigns with their leftwing media allies to brand anyone disagreeing with the unchangeable and eternal One True Science as "fringe" "conspiracy theorists" spreading baseless "dangerous disinformation."

This "dangerous disinformation" is accused of being of such a profoundly false and wholly baseless nature that it must not only be denounced as if it were blasphemy but driven from the public debate *by authoritarian means such as censorship, deplatforming, and imposing professional penalties against those who speak these heresies.*

And then a year later they go, "Oh well sure, we got another one wrong, *but science is more art than science*, yannow?"


So when you ask questions or dispute them, they brand you a conspiracy theorist and lobby media monopolists to censor you as spreading "disinformation."

Then when it turns out they were wrong -- again -- they just shrug and say, "Oh science is always changing and we're always learning more and we're often wrong. Everyone knows that. What, did you think it was magic where we could guarantee success??!!"
_


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So you can expend the effort to respond with the ad hominem but can't add a sentence or two for the basis for your opinion.  Got it.  Their are pros and cons to school vouchers.  Studies have shown they provide positive benefits in educational improvement, although probably not as significantly as many of us would like.  I'm pro-choice in all respects, something the left was until they decided they knew what's best for everyone.


You've been along here long enough to know how it works.  They are on the side of truth and justice, their arguments are selfevident, so when they respond with things like "completely full of shit, logically" they are just putting us in their place.  But God help us if we call their arguments or policies authoritarian and suddenly our arguments are completely without merit because we have to resort to ads.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You know as well as I do that N95s aren't recommended for children and many of the KN95s in children's sizes are counterfeit.
> 
> And again, what are we trying to protect here?  If the teacher is worried the teacher can wear the N95 and the teacher can get vaxxed.
> 
> p.s. it never fails but every time you get backed into a corner you always lash out....


Adults, Grace.    Adults, by skipping masks and vaccines, are shirking their burden.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Where do you get the idea that a poorly fitted N95 mask is equivalent to no mask?
> 
> I understand that it is an appealing argument.  After all, it absolves you of all responsibility.  You get to go maskless because you haven’t had the special training.
> 
> But it is also completely full of shit, logically.  We can do a web search for papers on the effectiveness of N95 masks when worn without training.  We both know the papers won’t say “same as no mask.”


you are delirous.  I don't need a web search or a study to tell me that when a seal isn't properly formed, air escapes.  If air escapes..then..well, you know the air escapes.  

When was the last time you wore a respirator for 6-8 hrs straight?

 Besides, even the CDC admits the real-world effectiveness of face coverings to prevent acquisition of SARS-CoV-2 infection has not been widely studied.   And phone surveys from peeps in CA doesn't really count.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Adults, Grace.    Adults, by skipping masks and vaccines, are shirking their burden.


What burden?
If you've had it, your natural immunity will protect you just fine.
If you are under 30, and aren't immuno compromised, you'll probably be just fine.
If your vaxxed, good for you!  Why do you need a mask...you are just delaying when you'll get COVID assuming you are going to go through the burden and wear the dumb n95 all day....why not get it over with.
Otherwise you are an adult...make your choices....again I don't understand you obsession with cases....either you believe in the vaxx or you don't, and if you are obsessing over cases, you clearly don't.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Adults, Grace.    Adults, by skipping masks and vaccines, are shirking their burden.


I still don't get what the burden is...if you wear an n95 mask and you are vaccinated what are you worried about? You always skip out on answer the basics. Do you have an answer to that?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber....


… you posted. Voilà


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Adults, Grace.    Adults, by skipping masks and vaccines, are shirking their burden.


What do vaxxes do now? They don't stop the spread. So no need for them in that aspect. 

They still offer some protection to those at risk. 

And then that leaves those that choose not to take the vax. 

WHen you look at the above, there is no need to mandate masks or vaxxes.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> So you can expend the effort to respond with the ad hominem but can't add a sentence or two for the basis for your opinion.  Got it.  Their are pros and cons to school vouchers.  Studies have shown they provide positive benefits in educational improvement, although probably not as significantly as many of us would like.  I'm pro-choice in all respects, something the left was until they decided they knew what's best for everyone.


Or when everyone realized school choice was being co-opted by billionaires (Kochs, etc) to privatize education. 

There was a time when this country believed in a strong public education system.  I guess we don't anymore -- and it shows.  The problem isn't inherent to public schools, it's what we as a country deem important to invest in.  God knows there's billion examples of corrupt charter schools.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> … you posted. Voilà


Oh man....what a burn.....good one chuckles.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Or when everyone realized school choice was being co-opted by billionaires (Kochs, etc) to privatize education.
> 
> There was a time when this country believed in a strong public education system.  I guess we don't anymore -- and it shows.  The problem isn't inherent to public schools, it's what we as a country deem important to invest in.  God knows there's billion examples of corrupt charter schools.


Link? Or, it appears I should ask, a billion links?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> Oh man....what a burn.....good one chuckles.


Thanks, genius.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Teachers do not have a mandatory vaccine requirement ( at least in my district) the ones who are not vaccinated have to get tested a certain number of times per week


I think LA is different, but not sure.  I drove up to North Hollywood to meet up with my life coach.  First off, wow!!!  The homeless and their tenst on Olympic Blvd in North Hollywood was crazy to see with my eyes.  I felt sad for everyone involved.  Everyone is wearing a mask.  My wife went into a eat place and she was chased down to wear a mask.  No mask, no food.  The fear is everywhere.  I drove to Beverly Hills after and I saw homeless as well.  I gave some change and told my wife this place is not the same.  I feel for the oppresses.  Hopelessness is written on the faces.  I send love to LA 100%.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Link? Or, it appears I should ask, a billion links?


Link about what, corrupt charter schools?  For real?  Took two seconds to find this:









						New Report: Charter Fraud And Waste Worse Than We Thought
					

"We have concluded that the practice of allowing unauthorized schools to receive funds, which has been in effect since 2001, has become a magnet for grifters, consultants and charter entrepreneurs who see an easy way to cash in."




					www.forbes.com
				




It goes on and on and on....


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I think LA is different, but not sure.  I drove up to North Hollywood to meet up with my life coach.  First off, wow!!!  The homeless and their tenst on Olympic Blvd in North Hollywood was crazy to see with my eyes.  I felt sad for everyone involved.  Everyone is wearing a mask.  My wife went into a eat place and she was chased down to wear a mask.  No mask, no food.  The fear is everywhere.  I drove to Beverly Hills after and I saw homeless as well.  I gave some change and told my wife this place is not the same.  I feel for the oppresses.  Hopelessness is written on the faces.  I send love to LA 100%.


I was at Silverlakes this weekend , stayed at a hotel . 

The hotel was completely booked, and Id estimate 90% were there because of soccer.  Id say the majority of the soccer people were from LA and San Diego. There we a lot of parents and teams hanging out in the lobby at night , and I actually chatted with some people who were from LA. Almost no one was wearing a mask . 

I wonder if LA peeps feel a sense of freedom when they get out of the county, because I certainly didn't walk away from this weekend thinking that they were somehow more frightened of covid than other people or  wouldn't they be wearing a mask?

We also played 2 LA teams this weekend, and I didn't see a single parent on their sidelines ( nor any players ) wearing mask. 

Just something I noticed, because my perception was that mask compliance was extremely high for people who reside in LA.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> Or when everyone realized school choice was being co-opted by billionaires (Kochs, etc) to privatize education.
> 
> There was a time when this country believed in a strong public education system.  I guess we don't anymore -- and it shows.  The problem isn't inherent to public schools, it's what we as a country deem important to invest in.  God knows there's billion examples of corrupt charter schools.


And yet if a charter does bad it goes away.

That doesn't happen with public schools.

Every time I see a charter open in a less than desirable area I think how lucky the kids are to finally have a better option.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> I was at Silverlakes this weekend , stayed at a hotel .
> 
> The hotel was completely booked, and Id estimate 90% were there because of soccer.  Id say the majority of the soccer people were from LA and San Diego. There we a lot of parents and teams hanging out in the lobby at night , and I actually chatted with some people who were from LA. Almost no one was wearing a mask .
> 
> I wonder if LA peeps feel a sense of freedom when they get out of the county, because I certainly didn't walk away from this weekend thinking that they were somehow more frightened of covid than other people or  wouldn't they be wearing a mask?
> 
> We also played 2 LA teams this weekend, and I didn't see a single parent on their sidelines ( nor any players ) wearing mask.
> 
> Just something I noticed, because my perception was that mask compliance was extremely high for people who reside in LA.


I think they are underestimating the powder keg they are sitting on.  If there are more pictures of adults partying at the Superbowl and kids need to go to LAUSD in masks the next day, I think they will be facing a full on parent rebellion.  No wonder they are hiring all that extra security to enforce the mask requirements.


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> Link about what, corrupt charter schools?  For real?  Took two seconds to find this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Report: Charter Fraud And Waste Worse Than We Thought
> 
> 
> "We have concluded that the practice of allowing unauthorized schools to receive funds, which has been in effect since 2001, has become a magnet for grifters, consultants and charter entrepreneurs who see an easy way to cash in."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It goes on and on and on....


And then you see public school districts producing the following.









						REPORT: 77 percent of Baltimore high school students reading at elementary or kindergarten level
					

An anonymous teacher from Baltimore’s Patterson High School has come forward with crucial information to support the claim that fully 77 percent of students at the troubled institution have an elementary school – or lower – reading level.




					thepostmillennial.com
				




And reading your article above it seems less the fault of charter schools and far more of how the government vetts prospective schools and how gov fails to do oversight.

Which is typical and which is why public schools in many areas underperform decade after decade.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> I think they are underestimating the powder keg they are sitting on.  If there are more pictures of adults partying at the Superbowl and kids need to go to LAUSD in masks the next day, I think they will be facing a full on parent rebellion.  No wonder they are hiring all that extra security to enforce the mask requirements.


starting To think this is a small but vocal minority that aren’t able to move on

I know Twitter isn’t an accurate  representation of the public at large , but read the replies to Newsom tweet yesterday announcing the mask mandates are going away. There are certainly people who never want mask mandates to go away


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> What do vaxxes do now? They don't stop the spread. So no need for them in that aspect.
> 
> They still offer some protection to those at risk.
> 
> And then that leaves those that choose not to take the vax.
> 
> WHen you look at the above, there is no need to mandate masks or vaxxes.


What do vaccines do?  For starters, they reduce your odds of getting covid by a factor of six.

That also reduces your odds of spreading covid by a factor of six.  Slightly more, because a vaccinated person is also infectious for a shorter time.

So, no.  The vaccine doesn't 'stop' transmission.  It just reduces transmission by 90% or so.

Incidentally, a 90% reduction in transmission is the difference between "huge case spike" and "minor outbreaks here and there."


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> What do vaccines do?  For starters, they reduce your odds of getting covid by a factor of six.
> 
> That also reduces your odds of spreading covid by a factor of six.  Slightly more, because a vaccinated person is also infectious for a shorter time.
> 
> So, no.  The vaccine doesn't 'stop' transmission.  It just reduces transmission by 90% or so.
> 
> Incidentally, a 90% reduction in transmission is the difference between "huge case spike" and "minor outbreaks here and there."


I think your numbers are wildly overestimated especially since we know the double vaxx simply isn’t that efficient in stopping omicron (remember the party in Neatherlands superspreader event was caused by a vaccinated individual in a room full of vaccinated people) and even with boosters the efficiency is declining with time. If it were 90% that many people would simply not have gotten ill at that event.

further highly vaxxed countries have all had omicron spikes..they were just less severe but hardly an outbreak here and there

but even assuming arguendo your 90%…you never answer why you care…the unvaxxed have made their decision and the vaccine is suppose to protect against serious illness.  Who you protecting here?  Just wanna avoid the bad cold?


----------



## soccersc

Grace T. said:


> I think your numbers are wildly overestimated especially since we know the double vaxx simply isn’t that efficient in stopping omicron (remember the party in Neatherlands superspreader event was caused by a vaccinated individual in a room full of vaccinated people) and even with boosters the efficiency is declining with time. If it were 90% that many people would simply not have gotten ill at that event.
> 
> further highly vaxxed countries have all had omicron spikes..they were just less severe but hardly an outbreak here and there
> 
> but even assuming arguendo your 90%…you never answer why you care…the unvaxxed have made their decision and the vaccine is suppose to protect against serious illness.  Who you protecting here?  Just wanna avoid the bad cold?


@dad4 tries to manipulate numbers to defend his out of touch reality…he can not stand being wrong. Even when every vaccinated person he knew got Covid over winter break he still wants to blame it on the unvaccinated. Maybe the world is flat?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> What do vaccines do?  For starters, they reduce your odds of getting covid by a factor of six.
> 
> That also reduces your odds of spreading covid by a factor of six.  Slightly more, because a vaccinated person is also infectious for a shorter time.
> 
> So, no.  The vaccine doesn't 'stop' transmission.  It just reduces transmission by 90% or so.
> 
> Incidentally, a 90% reduction in transmission is the difference between "huge case spike" and "minor outbreaks here and there."


vaxx appears to have held up great against omicron in NYC.  for cases even.  rate per 100K is cases vaxx/vaxx and cases novaxx/novaxx, ie correctly normalized to meaningfully compare the rates.  https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-main.page


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I think your numbers are wildly overestimated especially since we know the double vaxx simply isn’t that efficient in stopping omicron (remember the party in Neatherlands superspreader event was caused by a vaccinated individual in a room full of vaccinated people) and even with boosters the efficiency is declining with time. If it were 90% that many people would simply not have gotten ill at that event.
> 
> further highly vaxxed countries have all had omicron spikes..they were just less severe but hardly an outbreak here and there
> 
> but even assuming arguendo your 90%…you never answer why you care…the unvaxxed have made their decision and the vaccine is suppose to protect against serious illness.  Who you protecting here?  Just wanna avoid the bad cold?


The 1:6 ratio is not an estimate.  It's the vax to unvax ratio of positive tests per Capita.

You may not like it, but it's still true.  Most covid cases are unvaccinated.  And, as a result, most covid transmission is coming from unvaccinated people, too.

Why do I care?  About 900,000 Americans have died of this.  Another 2000 each day.   That is who we could have been protecting, but decided not to.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> vaxx appears to have held up great against omicron in NYC.  for cases even.  rate per 100K is cases vaxx/vaxx and cases novaxx/novaxx, ie correctly normalized to meaningfully compare the rates.  https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-main.page
> 
> View attachment 12865


What causes the vax peak to be earlier than unvax?  I see it other places, too.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> The 1:6 ratio is not an estimate.  It's the vax to unvax ratio of positive tests per Capita.
> 
> You may not like it, but it's still true.  Most covid cases are unvaccinated.  And, as a result, most covid transmission is coming from unvaccinated people, too.
> 
> Why do I care?  About 900,000 Americans have died of this.  Another 2000 each day.   That is who we could have been protecting, but decided not to.


short of literal government force , how do you suggest we protect the unvaccinated from dying ?


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> short of literal government force , how do you suggest we protect the unvaccinated from dying ?


The unvaccinated are not the only ones dying.

There are also covid deaths among vaccinated people with weakened immune systems or other health issues.  Maybe 10% or so of deaths?  

The health care libertarians here don't like to talk about that part.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> The unvaccinated are not the only ones dying.
> 
> There are also covid deaths among vaccinated people with weakened immune systems or other health issues.  Maybe 10% or so of deaths?
> 
> The health care libertarians here don't like to talk about that part.


that’s all true , but you didn’t really answer the question

so how do we protect those people in the 10% category ?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The unvaccinated are not the only ones dying.
> 
> There are also covid deaths among vaccinated people with weakened immune systems or other health issues.  Maybe 10% or so of deaths?
> 
> The health care libertarians here don't like to talk about that part.


I'll take a thousand health care libertarians before I take one health care authoritarian.


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> that’s all true , but you didn’t really answer the question
> 
> so how do we protect those people in the 10% category ?





dad4 said:


> The unvaccinated are not the only ones dying.
> 
> There are also covid deaths among vaccinated people with weakened immune systems or other health issues.  Maybe 10% or so of deaths?
> 
> The health care libertarians here don't like to talk about that part.


At least we know what we are debating now. The relevant subject is the 10%.

and the relevant question is to what extent are we going to reorganize society to protect that 10%. Certainly things should be reorganized particularly in nursing homes to the extent they need to be protected and inconvenienced. But when you are talking kids being inconvenieced that’s a totally different story.

I have skin in the game on this for 3 generations and a god child in the 4th. For my parents I totally see it justified that they should get boosted and wear 95s and limit their social activities. For me it is reasonable even having had it to get vaxxed. For my 20 year old goddaughter she is not at risk and youth is too fleeting to restrict her life any further particularly with the authoritarian rules at some colleges.  For my kids it is monstrous to insist they continue to sacrifice their childhood for the sake of my parents.

we don’t reorganize society for flu. We don’t do it for rsv where kids are vulnerable. We certainly shouldn’t for the glass staff 10%


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Brav520 said:


> starting To think this is a small but vocal minority that aren’t able to move on
> 
> I know Twitter isn’t an accurate  representation of the public at large , but read the replies to Newsom tweet yesterday announcing the mask mandates are going away. There are certainly people who never want mask mandates to go away


How many do you think are Members of an activist group funded by the Newsome Re-Election fund?


----------



## Brav520

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How many do you think are Members of an activist group funded by the Newsome Re-Election fund?


i don’t know , but I saw a lot of replies angry at him for lifting the mandate


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> What causes the vax peak to be earlier than unvax?  I see it other places, too.


The vaccinated are only incentivized to take unreported ‘at home’ tests to get out of isolation.

Next obvious question?


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> vaxx appears to have held up great against omicron in NYC.  for cases even.  rate per 100K is cases vaxx/vaxx and cases novaxx/novaxx, ie correctly normalized to meaningfully compare the rates.  https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-main.page
> 
> View attachment 12865


Um, what are you trying to convey?

The reporting bias of those without risk or symptoms in the absence of mandatory testing?

Or.. that a sliver of the population is more likely to get infected by a virus novel to their immune system sans vaccination or prior infection.

Both should appear obvious to all adults, if not… well, Darwin’s theory will work things out in the end.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> i don’t know , but I saw a lot of replies angry at him for lifting the mandate


Just curious. Did one post a bunch of Reddit links about dying from COVID and another ask for a link that supports his position while another tut tutted about how in his neck of the woods everything is great and no one minds wearing masks?


----------



## met61

"Medical science didn’t change, the political science did"...Bingo!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> What causes the vax peak to be earlier than unvax?  I see it other places, too.


Dunno, but you could bin the fraction of the total area under the curve at different time intervals to see if the profiles were in fact really different.  If so, one simple idea is that the vaxx population is heterogenous, like if there was a more susceptible sub-group that had been vaxxed 8-10 months ago but not boosted, something like that.  That could front load the profile.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Just curious. Did one post a bunch of Reddit links about dying from COVID and another ask for a link that supports his position while another tut tutted about how in his neck of the woods everything is great and no one minds wearing masks?


You're on a roll chuckles!  Keep it up!


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> The vaccinated are only incentivized to take unreported ‘at home’ tests to get out of isolation.
> 
> Next obvious question?


Next question?

I am not convinced you got the first one correct.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> Um, what are you trying to convey?
> 
> The reporting bias of those without risk or symptoms in the absence of mandatory testing?
> 
> Or.. that a sliver of the population is more likely to get infected by a virus novel to their immune system sans vaccination or prior infection.
> 
> Both should appear obvious to all adults, if not… well, Darwin’s theory will work things out in the end.


Convey....the vaxx held up well against omicron in New York city, like I said. It curbed cases.  Reporting bias.....so, your hypothesis is that vaxxed people hide positive test results or something? OK.  I guess I tend to think that anybody who goes to the trouble to get a logged lab test probably has a reason, from tracking cases through a team to blood O2 dipping below 90.  Sliver....which population?  NYC?  Something like 2-3 million cases in a city of 8-9 million.  Maybe that counts as a sliver, but in that case you should not get first dibs on the pie at Thanksgiving.  Darwin...always has his say.  But much of the erstwhile selective pressures in this particular go around are being exerted post-reproduction.  Modification, but no descent.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Um, what are you trying to convey?
> 
> The reporting bias of those without risk or symptoms in the absence of mandatory testing?
> 
> Or.. that a sliver of the population is more likely to get infected by a virus novel to their immune system sans vaccination or prior infection.
> 
> Both should appear obvious to all adults, if not… well, Darwin’s theory will work things out in the end.


You’re not going to get there by starting with the political conclusion and back filling the logic.

The question is real.  Why are vax case rates peaking earlier?  You can see it in the curves.  NYC unvax case rate is still rising while their vax rates are dropping.

Vax/unvax reporting bias doesn’t really wash as an explanation.  Even if only 10% of vax cases get reported, that just forces the curve lower.  It doesn‘t change the peak timing unless you have some reason that the reporting bias would change over time.   To explain those curves, you would have to have the scale of reporting bias change by 30% or so over 2 weeks.  Seems highly unlikely.

More likely there is something with less than even mixing of populations.  vax folks being exposed to other vax folks.   unvax being exposed to other unvax.   Or something else I can’t think of.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re not going to get there by starting with the political conclusion and back filling the logic.
> 
> The question is real.  Why are vax case rates peaking earlier?  You can see it in the curves.  NYC unvax case rate is still rising while their vax rates are dropping.
> 
> Vax/unvax reporting bias doesn’t really wash as an explanation.  Even if only 10% of vax cases get reported, that just forces the curve lower.  It doesn‘t change the peak timing unless you have some reason that the reporting bias would change over time.   To explain those curves, you would have to have the scale of reporting bias change by 30% or so over 2 weeks.  Seems highly unlikely.
> 
> More likely there is something with less than even mixing of populations.  vax folks being exposed to other vax folks.   unvax being exposed to other unvax.   Or something else I can’t think of.


How much earlier? My thought would be that an unvaccinated person is less likely to test than a vaccinated person and will only test after symptoms become reasonably severe while those who are vaccinated are likely to test as soon as they have mild symptoms. Although, I can't imagine it would push things out much more than a week, if that. I have to wonder if the testing of asymptomatic people is creating some strange results considering you can test positive weeks after you have gotten over the virus.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sooo kids suffer for the sake of adults who can’t/won’t take care of themselves?
> 
> Maybe a health mandate is in order over masking kids.
> 
> What was that obesity factor amongst severe Covid affects again?


Are you fat-shaming the obese? Where’s their freedom? Is there a body type that should be seen as ideal? Maybe we could start youth clubs to promote such ideas and to groom out the undesirables that may hinder our great American destiny! Eh Jojo?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber....


“shrouded in race”


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you fat-shaming the obese? Where’s their freedom? Is there a body type that should be seen as ideal? Maybe we could start youth clubs to promote such ideas and to groom out the undesirables that may hinder our great American destiny! Eh Jojo?


It like turnabout is fair play…..it’s funny coming from you.  Because reducing obesity would save more lives than masking kids ever would.  

oh wait, its my body my choice right?  Until it’s not….


----------



## crush

*NJ 3-year-old kicked out of speech therapy due to mask mandates: 'Catastrophic moral crime'*
*The boy's mother was told, 'If you don't put a mask on your son, we can't provide services' — she tells Fox News Digital exactly what happened*

Poor little guy and his mom.  I pray this can end soon fellas.  Masking the kids and using them as pawns is cruel and will be dealt with severely.  The sad TRUTH, this is just the tip of the pure evil spear of what these monsters have done to our children.  I tried to warn you guys but most just mock me.  Karma is coming and those who abuse kids will have custom millstone all made out for them.


----------



## crush

Is this real or fake?  It's crazy crazy to watch and it looked real.  Anyone?









						Amazing how these idiots who think they are clever with their bullshit vaccine narrative
					

Mirror. Source MARK STEELE CHANNEL, [09.02.2022 09:48] [ Video ] AMAZING HOW THESE IDIOTS WHO THINK THEY ARE CLEVER WITH THEIR BULLSHIT VACCINE NARRATIVE - WHAT DOES SHE THINK JESUS THINKS NOW - TAKING THE LORDS NAME IN VAIN TO PUSH THE ABOMINATION…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Studies?


Studies are now indicating some individuals who contract Covid-19 will become sterile in the coming years.


----------



## Desert Hound

The 180 degree turn over the past month is very interesting. Polling is terrible for the dems. Now they want to change the calculus.

One of the things the Biden admin wants to do is get accurate numbers from hospitals. This idea was talked about early on and dismissed as fringe right. Today? Good idea. It was a good idea way back when.

After 2 yrs they are admitting that they have been using wrong info, and that info has been driving BAD policy. This was pointed out long ago. 


_A task force comprised of scientists and data specialists at the Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are working with hospitals nationwide to improve Covid-19 reporting. The group is asking hospitals to report numbers of patients *who go to the facility because they have Covid-19 and separate those from individuals who go in for other reasons and test positive after being admitted*, the two officials said.

The administration’s goal *is to get a more accurate sense of Covid-19’s impact* across the country and whether the virus is causing severe disease. Senior Biden health officials have increasingly relied on hospitalization numbers, *rather than case counts,* to determine how to respond to the virus as well as the efficacy of the vaccines. Lower hospitalization rates c*ould inform the administration’s thinking on public health measures such as masking. More accurate Covid-19 numbers also could provide a better picture of the strain on hospitals and which resources they might need during surges.









						Biden officials trying to recalculate U.S. Covid-19 hospitalizations
					

The administration’s goal is to get a more accurate sense of Covid’s impact across the country.




					www.politico.com
				



*_


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> The 180 degree turn over the past month is very interesting. Polling is terrible for the dems. Now they want to change the calculus.
> 
> One of the things the Biden admin wants to do is get accurate numbers from hospitals. This idea was talked about early on and dismissed as fringe right. Today? Good idea. It was a good idea way back when.
> 
> After 2 yrs they are admitting that they have been using wrong info, and that info has been driving BAD policy. This was pointed out long ago.
> 
> 
> _A task force comprised of scientists and data specialists at the Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are working with hospitals nationwide to improve Covid-19 reporting. The group is asking hospitals to report numbers of patients *who go to the facility because they have Covid-19 and separate those from individuals who go in for other reasons and test positive after being admitted*, the two officials said.
> 
> The administration’s goal *is to get a more accurate sense of Covid-19’s impact* across the country and whether the virus is causing severe disease. Senior Biden health officials have increasingly relied on hospitalization numbers, *rather than case counts,* to determine how to respond to the virus as well as the efficacy of the vaccines. Lower hospitalization rates c*ould inform the administration’s thinking on public health measures such as masking. More accurate Covid-19 numbers also could provide a better picture of the strain on hospitals and which resources they might need during surges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden officials trying to recalculate U.S. Covid-19 hospitalizations
> 
> 
> The administration’s goal is to get a more accurate sense of Covid’s impact across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


Great reporting on the facts Hound.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> How much earlier? My thought would be that an unvaccinated person is less likely to test than a vaccinated person and will only test after symptoms become reasonably severe while those who are vaccinated are likely to test as soon as they have mild symptoms. Although, I can't imagine it would push things out much more than a week, if that. I have to wonder if the testing of asymptomatic people is creating some strange results considering you can test positive weeks after you have gotten over the virus.


Vax cases are peaking a week or so before non vax cases.  Cases per capita.  Not test positivity.

It isn’t a bias in who gets tested.  That could make cases lower for the non-testing group, but the effect would be the same every day.  The peak would drop, but it wouldn’t move left or right.

I’m wondering if the vax subgroup is developing more immunity than we would expect from case counts.  That is, is it common for vaccinated people get enough exposure to trigger an immune response, but not enough to develop a case.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> Vax cases are peaking a week or so before non vax cases.  Cases per capita.  Not test positivity.
> 
> It isn’t a bias in who gets tested.  That could make cases lower for the non-testing group, but the effect would be the same every day.  The peak would drop, but it wouldn’t move left or right.
> 
> I’m wondering if the vax subgroup is developing more immunity than we would expect from case counts.  That is, is it common for vaccinated people get enough exposure to trigger an immune response, but not enough to develop a case.


I wonder if there is a correlation to overall vaccination rates.  Where I live, they're peaking right around the same time.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Have some crack with your jabs!!!  I


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Vax cases are peaking a week or so before non vax cases.  Cases per capita.  Not test positivity.
> 
> It isn’t a bias in who gets tested.  That could make cases lower for the non-testing group, but the effect would be the same every day.  The peak would drop, but it wouldn’t move left or right.
> 
> I’m wondering if the vax subgroup is developing more immunity than we would expect from case counts.  That is, is it common for vaccinated people get enough exposure to trigger an immune response, but not enough to develop a case.


So how do you adjust for those who took IN Home tests?


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you fat-shaming the obese? Where’s their freedom? Is there a body type that should be seen as ideal? Maybe we could start youth clubs to promote such ideas and to groom out the undesirables that may hinder our great American destiny! Eh Jojo?


Would love to do a word-association test with you leftist morons.


----------



## Desert Hound

This gets back to LONG TERM STUDIES.

We are still learning stuff.

Now they are thinking of extending the time period between shots to minimize heart issues.

This amongst many reasons is why you don't mandate a vaxx. This is why you don't mandate the young who have no risk to take a vaxx. 









						CDC Considers Upping Time Between Shots to Cut Risk of Heart Issues
					

The CDC is weighing changes to vaccine guidance to increase the time between doses due to the risk of heart inflammation.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Vax cases are peaking a week or so before non vax cases.  Cases per capita.  Not test positivity.
> 
> It isn’t a bias in who gets tested.  That could make cases lower for the non-testing group, but the effect would be the same every day.  The peak would drop, but it wouldn’t move left or right.
> 
> I’m wondering if the vax subgroup is developing more immunity than we would expect from case counts.  That is, is it common for vaccinated people get enough exposure to trigger an immune response, but not enough to develop a case.


I don't believe you understood my point. Specifically, I believe that those that don't get vaccinated are much less prone to take a test unless their symptoms are more severe. If they expect a "bad cold" and get one, why test? The only time they'd test is if they went to the doctor after it got bad enough for them to seek treatment. If one group (vaxed) is getting a test when they get a mild sore throat, cough or sneezing or even before they have symptoms and another isn't getting tested until they are bed-ridden the peak will be the difference in the time the symptoms present themselves and the time they are severe.


----------



## soccersc

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't believe you understood my point. Specifically, I believe that those that don't get vaccinated are much less prone to take a test unless their symptoms are more severe. If they expect a "bad cold" and get one, why test? The only time they'd test is if they went to the doctor after it got bad enough for them to seek treatment. If one group (vaxed) is getting a test when they get a mild sore throat, cough or sneezing or even before they have symptoms and another isn't getting tested until they are bed-ridden the peak will be the difference in the time the symptoms present themselves and the time they are severe.


You are 100% correct! @dad4 knows what you are talking about, but all he has left to back his worry is the case counts.  I've already explained to him how inaccurate case counts are, how vaccinated probably get tested less because many jobs make unvaccinated test, but he has no answers for any of it...he just says look at the data.  I would also argue with his 6:1 ratio...How can @dad4 know if there are vaccinated people who have minimal symptoms that go out and infect unvaccinated...the vaccinated never test because they just had a sore throat, but meantime they have been going around spreading it to every person in the area.  There is a reason the spike was so high this year with 70-80 percent of the population vaccinated, because the vaccinated went out and spread it.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So how do you adjust for those who took IN Home tests?


Why would in home tests move the date of peak cases?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't believe you understood my point. Specifically, I believe that those that don't get vaccinated are much less prone to take a test unless their symptoms are more severe. If they expect a "bad cold" and get one, why test? The only time they'd test is if they went to the doctor after it got bad enough for them to seek treatment. If one group (vaxed) is getting a test when they get a mild sore throat, cough or sneezing or even before they have symptoms and another isn't getting tested until they are bed-ridden the peak will be the difference in the time the symptoms present themselves and the time they are severe.


My wife won't even let the pros take her temp with that thing you put on the third eye.  Third eye is everything.  I wake up every morning and work my root chakra to my heart.  Once I receive, I take it all to the third eye.  The things I'm seeing will blow you away.  This is all new to me.  I know why I came now, I came to help the oppressed, the fatherless and those who seek a higher calling.  I was just pissed off and took on the beast all by myself and felt alone and scared. It's all about love and not revenge.  Fear is where dad is at and the two sides fight.  Remember, where two fight, no one is right.  I know one guy who cheated so much he left his family and no one has seen him for a month now.  It sucks.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Next question?
> 
> I am not convinced you got the first one correct.


Fairly certain I nailed the obvious question.

What is it about the testing itself that would explain the difference?



dad4 said:


> You’re not going to get there by starting with the political conclusion and back filling the logic.
> 
> The question is real.  Why are vax case rates peaking earlier?


Not a political starting point.  Though for someone who has such a strong distaste of others marking conclusions on your behalf, this was a bit of a jump.

I agree the question is real. If there is an anomaly in the test results, shouldn’t one start at the testing when seeking a potential cause. Aka, applying the Principle of Parsimony?


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Sliver....which population?  NYC?  Something like 2-3 million cases in a city of 8-9 million.  Maybe that counts as a sliver, but in that case you should not get first dibs on the pie at Thanksgiving.


I don’t think the 15% slice of the pie (unvaccinated population) would disqualify one from dibs at Thanksgiving.  After all that’s about 6 slices per pie.  How many pieces do you cut yours into?


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Fairly certain I nailed the obvious question.
> 
> What is it about the testing itself that would explain the difference?
> 
> 
> 
> Not a political starting point.  Though for someone who has such a strong distaste of others marking conclusions on your behalf, this was a bit of a jump.
> 
> I agree the question is real. If there is an anomaly in the test results, shouldn’t one start at the testing when seeking a potential cause. Aka, applying the Principle of Parsimony?


I know _you_ think you got it right.

But your explanation doesn’t work.  Suppose vaccinated people test mostly at home, and that lab tests only catch 20% of all cases among vaccinated folks. 

That would mean the reported case maximum is 1/5 of the actual max level.  But it would be on the same day.  

So, no.  I don’t think at home testing can explain why vaccinated case peak is occurring earlier than unvax.


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Why would in home tests move the date of peak cases?


Yeah the x axis vs y axis parts of this are getting all sort of mixed up in a bucket.  Anyway, another thing you could do is to normalize the data to total cases rather than total vaxx or unvaxx.  That might have two effects.  First, it would be a different approach to determining if the peak time for vaxx vs unvaxx cases was truly shifted in the overall wave profile relative to unvaxx, which, as I recall, was your interest.  Second, since NYC (I assume we are still talking about this data) is heavy vaxx you could then plot the data as a function of total cases.  Maybe get something like 2/3 total cases in vaxxed people, express it as per 100K, and graph it that way.  Upload. Then, horrible mistake, vaxx really does suck.  And then I'm betting the (actually kind of interesting) discussion on testing proclivities and methodologies would fade away.  NYC data is all available as excel or csv download.  If I get some time later today might do that.  might be fun.   Too bad LA country doesn't appear to break down cases by vaxx status, at least that ive seen.


----------



## crush




----------



## thirteenknots

The " New " mask mandate only applies to Rino/Democrats.



Use it generously as the TRUTH is brought forth.
The American public can do without the constant
squealing that is about to ensue.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yeah the x axis vs y axis parts of this are getting all sort of mixed up in a bucket.  Anyway, another thing you could do is to normalize the data to total cases rather than total vaxx or unvaxx.  That might have two effects.  First, it would be a different approach to determining if the peak time for vaxx vs unvaxx cases was truly shifted in the overall wave profile relative to unvaxx, which, as I recall, was your interest.  Second, since NYC (I assume we are still talking about this data) is heavy vaxx you could then plot the data as a function of total cases.  Maybe get something like 2/3 total cases in vaxxed people, express it as per 100K, and graph it that way.  Upload. Then, horrible mistake, vaxx really does suck.  And then I'm betting the (actually kind of interesting) discussion on testing proclivities and methodologies would fade away.  NYC data is all available as excel or csv download.  If I get some time later today might do that.  might be fun.   Too bad LA country doesn't appear to break down cases by vaxx status, at least that ive seen.


Yeah, we are talking about your NYC graph.



			COVID-19 - NYC Health
		


Vax peak is more than a week before unvax peak.  It’s a 5 day gap for San Jose.  They aleady did the work of graphing by cases per 100K.






						COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
					






					covid19.sccgov.org
				




Best guess I have so far is if there was a lot of immunity developing among vaccinated people early in the omicron wave.  People who were exposed to enough virus to wake up the immune response, but not enough to get sick.

I don’t have a way to test it, though.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> I know _you_ think you got it right.
> 
> But your explanation doesn’t work.


Yup, the question is the right one to start with.

_You_ feel you’ve ruled out the question and moved on.  I don’t think you’ve really explored that question.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Yeah, we are talking about your NYC graph.
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 - NYC Health
> 
> 
> 
> Vax peak is more than a week before unvax peak.  It’s a 5 day gap for San Jose.  They aleady did the work of graphing by cases per 100K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19.sccgov.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best guess I have so far is if there was a lot of immunity developing among vaccinated people early in the omicron wave.  People who were exposed to enough virus to wake up the immune response, but not enough to get sick.
> 
> I don’t have a way to test it, though.


So your best guess is under reported cases (lack of testing ‘it’s just allergies’ or in-home unreported tests ) amongst the vaccinated community earlier in the omicron wave.

Care to circle back to the question?

“What is it about the testing itself that would explain the difference?”


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> I don’t think the 15% slice of the pie (unvaccinated population) would disqualify one from dibs at Thanksgiving.  After all that’s about 6 slices per pie.  How many pieces do you cut yours into?


Have a 17 year old son.  Make multiple pies.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Yup, the question is the right one to start with.
> 
> _You_ feel you’ve ruled out the question and moved on.  I don’t think you’ve really explored that question.


So show me how it’s done.  Explore your theory.  Give an explanation for why in home tests might move the case peak.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> So your best guess is under reported cases (lack of testing ‘it’s just allergies’ or in-home unreported tests ) amongst the vaccinated community earlier in the omicron wave.
> 
> Care to circle back to the question?
> 
> “What is it about the testing itself that would explain the difference?”


Your question has no answer.  There is nothing about testing itself that can explain the difference.  

A stable bias would not move the peak right or left.  Not up or down.

To move the peak right or left, you would need a testing bias which changes on the same time scale that the omicron wave itself changes.  Half life or doubling time of 7-14 days.  What makes you think we had that?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't believe you understood my point. Specifically, I believe that those that don't get vaccinated are much less prone to take a test unless their symptoms are more severe. If they expect a "bad cold" and get one, why test? The only time they'd test is if they went to the doctor after it got bad enough for them to seek treatment. If one group (vaxed) is getting a test when they get a mild sore throat, cough or sneezing or even before they have symptoms and another isn't getting tested until they are bed-ridden the peak will be the difference in the time the symptoms present themselves and the time they are severe.


for what's its worth, i'm inclined to agree that, particularly at this point in the pandemic, vaxxed vs unvaxxed groups are highly reflective of deep personality traits, like in the way psychologists use the term, not some kind of judgement.  no big surprise.  and those traits dictate behavior as well obviously.  so could there be skew in reporting time between the groups big enough to effect large population data as you are suggesting?  basically unvaxxed being more prone to tough it out so to speak if i follow you.  sure, i could see it.  the interesting follow on would then be whether you'd think that would affect the total number of cases between the two groups, rather than just the timing of reporting.  And if so, in what way?


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> for what's its worth, i'm inclined to agree that, particularly at this point in the pandemic, vaxxed vs unvaxxed groups are highly reflective of deep personality traits, like in the way psychologists use the term, not some kind of judgement.  no big surprise.  and those traits dictate behavior as well obviously.  so could there be skew in reporting time between the groups big enough to effect large population data as you are suggesting?  basically unvaxxed being more prone to tough it out so to speak if i follow you.  sure, i could see it.  the interesting follow on would then be whether you'd think that would affect the total number of cases between the two groups, rather than just the timing of reporting.  And if so, in what way?


One corruption in the data, at least in California, is anyone declining to state their vaxx status or whose vaxx status is indeterminate is lumped into unvaxxed.  If tested, I certainly would decline to state (I was asked this question, as well as to mask, at a routine DUI check point....I declined both requests).  Don't know how other states handle that.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> for what's its worth, i'm inclined to agree that, particularly at this point in the pandemic, vaxxed vs unvaxxed groups are highly reflective of deep personality traits, like in the way psychologists use the term, not some kind of judgement.  no big surprise.  and those traits dictate behavior as well obviously.  so could there be skew in reporting time between the groups big enough to effect large population data as you are suggesting?  basically unvaxxed being more prone to tough it out so to speak if i follow you.  sure, i could see it.  the interesting follow on would then be whether you'd think that would affect the total number of cases between the two groups, rather than just the timing of reporting.  And if so, in what way?


A consistent reporting delay at least points in the right direction.  

So, team panic worries more, gets tested early, has an earlier reported peak.  Team virus ignores it, gets tested late, has a later reported peak.  

If true, it would bump the reported case rate up for vaccinated, because they’d be catching more of the mild cases.

Not sure if it is the right time scale.  Omicron has a pretty short incubation period.  That makes it hard to squeeze in a week long delay without the patient recovering and skipping the test entirely.  If that is happening, the unvax case rate would be underreported, and the unvax hospitalization/case ratio would be over estimated.  (because you are underestimating the denominator.)


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> This gets back to LONG TERM STUDIES.
> 
> We are still learning stuff.
> 
> Now they are thinking of extending the time period between shots to minimize heart issues.
> 
> This amongst many reasons is why you don't mandate a vaxx. This is why you don't mandate the young who have no risk to take a vaxx.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Considers Upping Time Between Shots to Cut Risk of Heart Issues
> 
> 
> The CDC is weighing changes to vaccine guidance to increase the time between doses due to the risk of heart inflammation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


It's embarrasing how behind we are in evolution/understanding of the science.  Canada has been doing this for months, their docs figured this out a long time ago.  Other countries as well.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> for what's its worth, i'm inclined to agree that, particularly at this point in the pandemic, vaxxed vs unvaxxed groups are highly reflective of deep personality traits, like in the way psychologists use the term, not some kind of judgement.  no big surprise.  and those traits dictate behavior as well obviously.  so could there be skew in reporting time between the groups big enough to effect large population data as you are suggesting?  basically unvaxxed being more prone to tough it out so to speak if i follow you.  sure, i could see it.  the interesting follow on would then be whether you'd think that would affect the total number of cases between the two groups, rather than just the timing of reporting.  And if so, in what way?


I think unvaxed positive tests underreport unvaxed cases. That's rather meaningless on its own since a reliable test will never over-report actual cases. I have no idea by how much it underreports as I believe it depends on how severe most cases get for unvaxed. That's hard to know. My thinking is that the more severe the "average" case is for an unvax individual, the less it will underreport as more will be motivated to get treatment and end up taking a test. I'll add that this is just a thought and I have not looked at the data.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> A consistent reporting delay at least points in the right direction.
> 
> So, team panic worries more, gets tested early, has an earlier reported peak.  Team virus ignores it, gets tested late, has a later reported peak.
> 
> If true, it would bump the reported case rate up for vaccinated, because they’d be catching more of the mild cases.
> 
> Not sure if it is the right time scale.  Omicron has a pretty short incubation period.  That makes it hard to squeeze in a week long delay without the patient recovering and skipping the test entirely.  If that is happening, the unvax case rate would be underreported, and the unvax hospitalization/case ratio would be over estimated.  (because you are underestimating the denominator.)


What about the OC...Does it seem that cases rise at the same rate?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Why would in home tests move the date of peak cases?


You don’t think there was a significant number of home testing going on during the Omicron peak?  
Never said it would move the date but would definitely have an impact on how you’ve categorized the positivity rate amongst categories if you have a significant number of the population that isn’t reporting Test results.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> What about the OC...Does it seem that cases rise at the same rate?
> View attachment 12874


Hard to say.  SCC only had a 3-5 day lag.  It’s hard to find a 3-5 day lag on a graph broken into 7 day chunks.  You’re left speculating about why the green line splits off from the red in early January.  Not very solid either way.

Do you have the same data reported daily?


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> One corruption in the data, at least in California, is anyone declining to state their vaxx status or whose vaxx status is indeterminate is lumped into unvaxxed.  If tested, I certainly would decline to state (I was asked this question, as well as to mask, at a routine DUI check point....I declined both requests).  Don't know how other states handle that.


are testing sites asking for VAX status?


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> are testing sites asking for VAX status?


Some of them are.  For example, when my kid got tested at the Ralphs they asked him both if symptomatic and if vaccinated.  It's part of the questionnaire.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You don’t think there was a significant number of home testing going on during the Omicron peak?
> Never said it would move the date but would definitely have an impact on how you’ve categorized the positivity rate amongst categories if you have a significant number of the population that isn’t reporting Test results.


I do not believe there are enough at home tests being produced to explain the low case rate among unvaccinated.  The supply is an order of magitude too small for that.

Vax case rates are about 85% below unvax.  Do we see an 85% decline in vaccinated use of PCR tests?

US is still running about 1.5 million PCR tests per day, about the same as November 2021.  (It got higher during the Christmas travel season.). No 85% decline, or anything close.

There is a lot of at home testing, but I think that is mostly people trying to add a safety check before a dinner party or sleep over.  It does not seem to have replaced PCR testing.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> Some of them are.  For example, when my kid got tested at the Ralphs they asked him both if symptomatic and if vaccinated.  It's part of the questionnaire.


Ok I’ve never been asked this


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Hard to say.  SCC only had a 3-5 day lag.  It’s hard to find a 3-5 day lag on a graph broken into 7 day chunks.  You’re left speculating about why the green line splits off from the red in early January.  Not very solid either way.
> 
> Do you have the same data reported daily?


No, that's all they post.  But as far as a 7 day chunks the peeks are identical


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Ok I’ve never been asked this


Are you testing for work?  Your employer presumably has your vax status.  Same for students in LAUSD or certain private schools.

If you produce your drivers license at the county site, they have access to the county data base (though presumably may have a difficult time checking if you got vaccinated out of state or out of county).


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Or when everyone realized school choice was being co-opted by billionaires (Kochs, etc) to privatize education.
> 
> There was a time when this country believed in a strong public education system.  I guess we don't anymore -- and it shows.  The problem isn't inherent to public schools, it's what we as a country deem important to invest in.  God knows there's billion examples of corrupt charter schools.


That's an interesting perspective, but doesnt apply here in San Diego.  The corruption here is in the public school districts, SDUSD, Poway, Sweetwater to name a few.  The charter high schools in our area are comparable to the publics, but are significantly better than the schools in the areas from where the kids are choicing in from.  There have been a few cases of fraud in the very small charters, but a little due diligence from the granting authorities could have avoided many of those cases.

Parents love charters.  Whats the harm in giving people options and giving competition to publics?  Absolutely nothing.

If the Koch's want to back school choice, more power to them.  Its light years better than Soros funding soft on crime DA's.  I would think you could appreciate that being from NoCal.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The 180 degree turn over the past month is very interesting. Polling is terrible for the dems. Now they want to change the calculus.
> 
> One of the things the Biden admin wants to do is get accurate numbers from hospitals. This idea was talked about early on and dismissed as fringe right. Today? Good idea. It was a good idea way back when.
> 
> After 2 yrs they are admitting that they have been using wrong info, and that info has been driving BAD policy. This was pointed out long ago.
> 
> 
> _A task force comprised of scientists and data specialists at the Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are working with hospitals nationwide to improve Covid-19 reporting. The group is asking hospitals to report numbers of patients *who go to the facility because they have Covid-19 and separate those from individuals who go in for other reasons and test positive after being admitted*, the two officials said.
> 
> The administration’s goal *is to get a more accurate sense of Covid-19’s impact* across the country and whether the virus is causing severe disease. Senior Biden health officials have increasingly relied on hospitalization numbers, *rather than case counts,* to determine how to respond to the virus as well as the efficacy of the vaccines. Lower hospitalization rates c*ould inform the administration’s thinking on public health measures such as masking. More accurate Covid-19 numbers also could provide a better picture of the strain on hospitals and which resources they might need during surges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden officials trying to recalculate U.S. Covid-19 hospitalizations
> 
> 
> The administration’s goal is to get a more accurate sense of Covid’s impact across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


When you’re done breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, try to figure out what omicron has done to the accuracy of hospital admission numbers.

You know, take a short break from bragging to think a little.


----------



## soccersc

Grace T. said:


> Are you testing for work?  Your employer presumably has your vax status.  Same for students in LAUSD or certain private schools.
> 
> If you produce your drivers license at the county site, they have access to the county data base (though presumably may have a difficult time checking if you got vaccinated out of state or out of county).


Do you think they are actually cross referencing all the test with vaccination status? I do wonder if all the testing sites are connected that way, it would be good, but I find it a little stretch to think that is happening when at its peak there was 700,000 to 800,000 test being done every day in California

It seems more likely vaccinated/unvaccinated testing numbers would come more directly from hospitals but I am interested in knowing


----------



## Desert Hound

_"I saw a video -- maybe it was a clip of Tucker, Gutfeld, or Watters -- where the guy said, covid is a disease that is deadly for the very old and very fat, and our political leadership class happens to be both of those, so our political leadership class decided to impose the most draconian lockdowns on us, and five year old children, to protect themselves."_


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When you’re done breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, try to figure out what omicron has done to the accuracy of hospital admission numbers.
> 
> You know, take a short break from bragging to think a little.


I like most people have moved on and realized we have to live with it. 

You keep tilting at windmills hoping that maybe another mask or a lockdown will do the trick. I will give you a heads up. It won't.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I like most people have moved on and realized we have to live with it.
> 
> You keep tilting at windmills hoping that maybe another mask or a lockdown will do the trick. I will give you a heads up. It won't.


Don’t give up.  You can figure it out.  I have faith in you.

You have a new variant which infects a very large number of people, but makes relatively few of them sick.

How will this change the profile of hospital admissions?  What will happen to the proportion of covid positive patients who are in the hospital for non-covid reasons?

This should be an easy question for someone who is as good with numbers as you keep telling us you are.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Do you think they are actually cross referencing all the test with vaccination status? I do wonder if all the testing sites are connected that way, it would be good, but I find it a little stretch to think that is happening when at its peak there was 700,000 to 800,000 test being done every day in California
> 
> It seems more likely vaccinated/unvaccinated testing numbers would come more directly from hospitals but I am interested in knowing


There is a database of all vaccinations.  There is a database of all tests run.  You’re describing a merged database query on a few million records.   That’s been easy for decades.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> try to figure out what omicron has done to the accuracy of hospital admission numbers.


By the way this issue outdates omicron. 

They have not bothered to differentiate between in the hospital because of covid vs with covid since the start. This is not some new reality. 

It is a problem talked about and dismissed by people like you and politicians from day 1.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> There is a database of all vaccinations.  There is a database of all tests run.  You’re describing a merged database query on a few million records.   That’s been easy for decades.


----------



## crush




----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> That's an interesting perspective, but doesnt apply here in San Diego.  The corruption here is in the public school districts, SDUSD, Poway, Sweetwater to name a few.  The charter high schools in our area are comparable to the publics, but are significantly better than the schools in the areas from where the kids are choicing in from.  There have been a few cases of fraud in the very small charters, but a little due diligence from the granting authorities could have avoided many of those cases.
> 
> Parents love charters.  Whats the harm in giving people options and giving competition to publics?  Absolutely nothing.
> 
> If the Koch's want to back school choice, more power to them.  Its light years better than Soros funding soft on crime DA's.  I would think you could appreciate that being from NoCal.


Again, took two seconds:









						Founder, CEO Must Pay $37.5 Million in Fines, Face Prison Terms, in Charter School Fraud Case
					

The co-founder of a charter school network that engaged in a "systematic public corruption scheme" was sentenced Friday to four years in prison.




					timesofsandiego.com
				




I'm not against school choice. I'm against how it's implemented. There is no oversight. I'm a big believer that if you want better public schools we need to pay the teachers more -- so much more that we attract people that wouldn't otherwise become teachers. That will play out in the private sector once schools start to realize they don't have any teachers to hire. This idea that the private sector can do this better is pretty crazy. I mean look at all of the people on this thread saying "Follow the money...look at big pharma"....yet somehow....we shouldn't do that with charter/private schools?


----------



## Desert Hound

NorCalDad said:


> Again, took two seconds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Founder, CEO Must Pay $37.5 Million in Fines, Face Prison Terms, in Charter School Fraud Case
> 
> 
> The co-founder of a charter school network that engaged in a "systematic public corruption scheme" was sentenced Friday to four years in prison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timesofsandiego.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not against school choice. I'm against how it's implemented. There is no oversight. I'm a big believer that if you want better public schools we need to pay the teachers more -- so much more that we attract people that wouldn't otherwise become teachers. That will play out in the private sector once schools start to realize they don't have any teachers to hire. This idea that the private sector can do this better is pretty crazy. I mean look at all of the people on this thread saying "Follow the money...look at big pharma"....yet somehow....we shouldn't do that with charter/private schools?


You are right. Takes a second or two.

If this was a charter they would have been shut down years ago.









						Calls to shut down Baltimore School where 0.13 GPA ranks near top half of class
					

BALTIMORE (WBFF) - Calls are mounting for a Baltimore City school to be investigated and shut down immediately. This, after an alarming WBFF Project Baltimore investigation, found hundreds of students are failing at the west Baltimore high school. C4, or Clarence Mitchell IV, and Bryan Nehman...




					wset.com
				




_According to the investigation’s findings, 937 of the 2,758 DCPS high school graduates last year (34 percent) did not meet the city’s requirements to earn their diplomas_









						DC Public Schools Failed Thousands of Students | HillRag
					

Last week, the Office of the State Superintendent of Education (OSSE) issued the “Final Report on the Audit and Investigation of Graduation Irregularities at Ballou High School and across DC Public



					www.hillrag.com
				




and just passing them along to the next grade...





__





						Loading…
					





					www.washingtonpost.com
				




And counter productive "ideas" like this....


LOS ANGELES (TND) — Some of the largest school districts in California are facing criticism after announcing the elimination of 'D' and 'F' grades for some students.

_School districts in Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, and Oakland, among others, are reportedly ending the practice of giving out grades below 'C' for high schoolers. According to EdSource, students will be given more time to complete assignments if they aren't turned in on time and the ability to retake failed tests._

Here the school district used money for other things other than what it was supposed to...to the tune of 450 million.

_








						How did LAUSD spend $450 million? Not on the high-needs students the money was for, state officials say
					

The Los Angeles Unified School District may soon have to redirect how it spends hundreds of millions of dollars in order to directly benefit the English learners, foster youth and low-income students for whom the state funding was earmarked.




					www.latimes.com
				




Over the last school year, 15 states constituting around a quarter of the total U.S. population d*idn't even manage to achieve 50 percent effective in-person education, the alleged purpose of all that federal COVID money.









						What Did Public Schools Do With COVID Relief Money? Whatever They Wanted.
					

Track and field equipment and salaries for custodians are among the goods and services school districts purchased with COVID-19 relief money. Figuring out what they did with the rest of it remains difficult.




					reason.com
				



*_
The problem with public schools is politically they are a special interest. They have a lack of oversight. Failure is not punished. 

School choice allows parents to get out of miserable failing public schools.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> By the way this issue outdates omicron.
> 
> They have not bothered to differentiate between in the hospital because of covid vs with covid since the start. This is not some new reality.
> 
> It is a problem talked about and dismissed by people like you and politicians from day 1.


Issue?  Why would it have been an issue back when cases were less than 10% of current levels?

What did you expect them to say?  "STOP EVERYTHING.  OUR HOSPITALIZATION RATE ESTIMATES MIGHT BE OFF BY THREE PERCENT!!!!!"

No one important cared, because a 3% error does not matter.  It was a political non-issue being raised by uninformed talking heads on Fox.  

Later, when cases rose ten fold, it became a 30% error, then people paid attention.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Issue? Why would it have been an issue back when cases were less than 10% of current levels?


Why was it an issue? 

You fail or pretend not to know. 

It is simple. Hospital numbers have been inflated which in turn has lead to our "leadership" making bad decisions off those numbers. 

Very early on it was pointed out they they were counting everyone with covid in the hospital as a covid case...ie in there because of covid. That has skewed the numbers in the wrong direction from the very beginning.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Again, took two seconds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Founder, CEO Must Pay $37.5 Million in Fines, Face Prison Terms, in Charter School Fraud Case
> 
> 
> The co-founder of a charter school network that engaged in a "systematic public corruption scheme" was sentenced Friday to four years in prison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timesofsandiego.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not against school choice. I'm against how it's implemented. There is no oversight. I'm a big believer that if you want better public schools we need to pay the teachers more -- so much more that we attract people that wouldn't otherwise become teachers. That will play out in the private sector once schools start to realize they don't have any teachers to hire. This idea that the private sector can do this better is pretty crazy. I mean look at all of the people on this thread saying "Follow the money...look at big pharma"....yet somehow....we shouldn't do that with charter/private schools?


I agree we need better oversight of charter schools...and public schools.  The fraud problem is far from unique to charter schools.  We have whole public school districts including teachers unions that are rife with fraud and incompetence.  (If you spent 6 seconds more looking for public school fraud you would have found far more examples than charters) Teachers pay is not the problem with our public schools, accountability is the biggest problem.  Im a fan of public schools.  Weve chosen public over charter for both our kids.  (Our middle school feeds a public and a charter)

You know why oversight sucks?  Because its done by our government.

If your against publicly founded fraud in California then I suggest we get rid of unemployment, welfare, workers comp etc.  Cause charter school fraud is a drop in the bucket compared to those.

Charter schools work, unfortunately every industry is subject to fraud particularly those with goverment oversight.  Dont hide behind claims of fraud.  At least I can admit that charter school fraud exists.


----------



## Desert Hound

Also...to continue from above...

It is also similar in the sense of CASE counts. The press and you have been fixated on cases. Cases by and large for the majority of the population don't matter. And yet for 2 yrs that has been the focus leading the fear/paranoia in people like you.

100k cases in a 20-40yr old age group really don't matter since their risk is so low. 100k cases in the elderly does make a difference.

2yrs into this you should admit that what you advocated and many blue states mandated was never going to work. 

A complete failure. Children greatly harmed educationally. Rampant inflation due to spending related to wrong covid policies. Ruined biz, people using their life savings up...etc. All for naught. We were never going to stop this virus.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I agree we need better oversight of charter schools...and public schools.  The fraud problem is far from unique to charter schools.  We have whole public school districts including teachers unions that are rife with fraud and incompetence.  (If you spent 6 seconds more looking for public school fraud you would have found far more examples than charters) Teachers pay is not the problem with our public schools, accountability is the biggest problem.  Im a fan of public schools.  Weve chosen public over charter for both our kids.  (Our middle school feeds a public and a charter)
> 
> You know why oversight sucks?  Because its done by our government.
> 
> If your against publicly founded fraud in California then I suggest we get rid of unemployment, welfare, workers comp etc.  Cause charter school fraud is a drop in the bucket compared to those.
> 
> Charter schools work, unfortunately every industry is subject to fraud particularly those with goverment oversight.  Dont hide behind claims of fraud.  At least I can admit that charter school fraud exists.


I just spent several seconds trying to find public school fraud in San Diego -- nothing comes up (except for that A3 charter school fiasco).  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm not finding it. Can you send me some links?  I'm willing to listen here.  The problem is it's incredibly difficult to commit fraud in public schools due to all of the checks and balances -- it's also the reason why people complain about bureaucracy in our school system.  I mean just go to any school board meeting and what the brown act unfold.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

NorCalDad said:


> I'm a big believer that if you want better public schools we need to pay the teachers more -- so much more that we attract people that wouldn't otherwise become teachers.


Yeah it's a bit funny to read the comments about how shutting down schools was so bad for our kids but now that they can go back the schools just suck, close them down.  Sorta weird.  Part of the overall fatalism I guess.  With my 2ed grader there were challenges with the shut down to be sure, but some highlights too. When the time came was it far better for her to go back to a professional trained to teach her age group?  Absolutely. I would have thought greater respect for teachers might have been something universal to come out of this whole experience.  But I guess not.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Why was it an issue?
> 
> You fail or pretend not to know.
> 
> It is simple. Hospital numbers have been inflated which in turn has lead to our "leadership" making bad decisions off those numbers.
> 
> Very early on it was pointed out they they were counting everyone with covid in the hospital as a covid case...ie in there because of covid. That has skewed the numbers in the wrong direction from the very beginning.


Sure.  Numbers were inflated and skewed.  Inflated and skewed by 3% or so.

That is not an issue.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> I just spent several seconds trying to find public school fraud in San Diego -- nothing comes up (except for that A3 charter school fiasco).  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm not finding it. Can you send me some links?  I'm willing to listen here.  The problem is it's incredibly difficult to commit fraud in public schools due to all of the checks and balances -- it's also the reason why people complain about bureaucracy in our school system.  I mean just go to any school board meeting and what the brown act unfold.


A couple of years ago the Superintendent of the Poway USD was fired after disclosure of expense report and vacation time policies and harassing staff who were investigating him.  An earlier super had been dismissed for an inappropriate relationship with a female employee.  The current super's biggest challenge has been public criticism in the wake of an unannounced visit by SecEd deVoss.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Numbers were inflated and skewed.  Inflated and skewed by 3% or so.
> 
> That is not an issue.


have you ever been to a hospital and seen how things work? Not your family practice office, but a hospital.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> So show me how it’s done.  Explore your theory.  Give an explanation for why in home tests might move the case peak.


The statement:



N00B said:


> The vaccinated are only incentivized to take unreported ‘at home’ tests to get out of isolation.


What changed at or near the peak of the vaccinated positive reported cases?

It was the removal of incentive for vaccinated individuals to test, excepting to test out of isolation on Monday, December 27th.



dad4 said:


> Vax/unvax reporting bias doesn’t really wash as an explanation.  Even if only 10% of vax cases get reported, that just forces the curve lower.  It doesn‘t change the peak timing unless you have some reason that the reporting bias would change over time.











						CDC Newsroom
					

Press releases, advisories, telebriefings, transcripts and archives.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> The statement:
> 
> 
> 
> What changed at or near the peak of the vaccinated positive reported cases?
> 
> It was the removal of incentive for vaccinated individuals to test, excepting to test out of isolation on Monday, December 27th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Newsroom
> 
> 
> Press releases, advisories, telebriefings, transcripts and archives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Your theory is that New York residents stopped getting PCR tests because isolation rules changed for Californians?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Numbers were inflated and skewed.  Inflated and skewed by 3% or so.
> 
> That is not an issue.


Where do you come up with 3%?

We haven't had a break down of the numbers.

If it were just 3% Biden wouldn't be talking about changing the standards. The number is far greater.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> Where do you come up with 3%?
> 
> We haven't had a break down of the numbers.
> 
> If it were just 3% Biden wouldn't be talking about changing the standards. The number is far greater.


Very old ground that has been rehashed several times here. He’s going to say with the omicron because it’s more inflated than it was but if you look back at the records the with/for split was around 20-40%/80%~60% and Is now more than 50/50 by most guesses. 3% is laughable.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you fat-shaming the obese? Where’s their freedom? Is there a body type that should be seen as ideal? Maybe we could start youth clubs to promote such ideas and to groom out the undesirables that may hinder our great American destiny! Eh Jojo?


Wonder what would have been more effective, Mask Mandates or a Diet and Excercise Mandate:









						CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese
					

An overwhelming majority of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the CDC said.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yeah it's a bit funny to read the comments about how shutting down schools was so bad for our kids but now that they can go back the schools just suck, close them down.  Sorta weird.  Part of the overall fatalism I guess.  With my 2ed grader there were challenges with the shut down to be sure, but some highlights too. When the time came was it far better for her to go back to a professional trained to teach her age group?  Absolutely. I would have thought greater respect for teachers might have been something universal to come out of this whole experience.  But I guess not.


It was until they tried to keep the schools shut.

the choice thing was made worse by the leadership sending their kids to private schools which were open while public’s were shut. Then the entire crt thing hit and the bottom dropped out.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> It was until they tried to keep the schools shut.
> 
> the choice thing was made worse by the leadership sending their kids to private schools which were open while public’s were shut. Then the entire crt thing hit and the bottom dropped out.


Serious truth to that -- pretty sure the Carters were the last ones to send their kids to public school.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Very old ground that has been rehashed several times here. He’s going to say with the omicron because it’s more inflated than it was but if you look back at the records the with/for split was around 20-40%/80%~60% and Is now more than 50/50 by most guesses. 3% is laughable.


50% is laughable.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> 50% is laughable.


Very soon Adam Espola Schiff you will realize
your " Custer's Last Stand " was on the wrong side 
of history.
Your posting past is the millstone you will carry 
for the balance of your existence.
Adios til mañana !


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I just spent several seconds trying to find public school fraud in San Diego -- nothing comes up (except for that A3 charter school fiasco).  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm not finding it. Can you send me some links?  I'm willing to listen here.  The problem is it's incredibly difficult to commit fraud in public schools due to all of the checks and balances -- it's also the reason why people complain about bureaucracy in our school system.  I mean just go to any school board meeting and what the brown act unfold.











						Embattled Sweetwater Superintendent Fired | Voice of San Diego
					

Sweetwater Union High School District board members officially fired Superintendent Karen Janney on Monday. Sweetwater became embroiled in a $30 million financial scandal under Janney’s leadership.




					www.voiceofsandiego.org
				



.









						Nine Years After Notorious Deal, Poway Wants Voters to OK Another School Bond
					

It’s been several years since Poway Unified School District passed a bond that ignited outrage and led to statewide reforms. Now district leaders hope residents in March send millions more bond dollars their way with a promise it will be different this time around.




					www.voiceofsandiego.org
				




This happened at my kids elementary.  We werent aware of this specific issue, but reported this principal a number of times over the course of 3 years for various odd behaviors including being under the influence.  Our complaints were ignored.  Eventually led to a federal investigation for covering up sexual abuse.



			Redirect Notice
		


These are just a few examples and I have first hand experience with other bad teachet and administrator behavior.  So while I'm pro public schools Im very diisillushioned with what Ive experienced lately.  Charter schools arent a panacea but they offer a positive alternative for msny students.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Your theory is that New York residents stopped getting PCR tests because isolation rules changed for Californians?


Centers for Disease Control, not California Department of Public Health.

Did the New York Department of Public Health’s quarantine (not isolation) requirements align with the CDC at the time?

I’m sure there was plenty of press about the CDC guidance in NYC.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Very old ground that has been rehashed several times here. He’s going to say with the omicron because it’s more inflated than it was but if you look back at the records the with/for split was around 20-40%/80%~60% and Is now more than 50/50 by most guesses. 3% is laughable.


Summer 2020.

30k positive tests per day.
Times 10 because of the test undercount back then.
Times 30 because people test positive for a while.

Roughly 9M people who would have tested positive, if you had tested them on that day.  Just under 3% of 330M.

Nowhere near enough to mess up hospitalization counts.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> 50% is laughable.


Grace made no effort to explain where the numbers came from, or what they measure.

I think she's referring to the split between those who are sick because of covid, and those who have covid but are sick for another reason.

I have no idea where she gets the 40/60 assertion.  Pulled the number out of thin air as far as I can tell.

I explained the claim of 3% of all hospital admissions.   You'd have to combine it with covid hospital admissions to compare it to Grace's split.

The 3% is probably an overestimate.  Not everyone got tested in hospital back then.  Why waste a test on a healthy 25 year old with a broken leg?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Grace made no effort to explain where the numbers came from, or what they measure.
> 
> I think she's referring to the split between those who are sick because of covid, and those who have covid but are sick for another reason.
> 
> I have no idea where she gets the 40/60 assertion.  Pulled the number out of thin air as far as I can tell.
> 
> I explained the claim of 3% of all hospital admissions.   You'd have to combine it with covid hospital admissions to compare it to Grace's split.
> 
> The 3% is probably an overestimate.  Not everyone got tested in hospital back then.  Why waste a test on a healthy 25 year old with a broken leg?


Didn't they have to test everyone to determine whether they needed to be "isolated" or not?


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Didn't they have to test everyone to determine whether they needed to be "isolated" or not?


As soon as they had enough tests, yes.

June 2020, there was still a shortage.  They wanted to test everyone, but couldn't.

Remember Cuomo jumping the queue to get tests for his family?   It was an issue because there were not enough to go around.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace made no effort to explain where the numbers came from, or what they measure.
> 
> I think she's referring to the split between those who are sick because of covid, and those who have covid but are sick for another reason.
> 
> I have no idea where she gets the 40/60 assertion.  Pulled the number out of thin air as far as I can tell.
> 
> I explained the claim of 3% of all hospital admissions.   You'd have to combine it with covid hospital admissions to compare it to Grace's split.
> 
> The 3% is probably an overestimate.  Not everyone got tested in hospital back then.  Why waste a test on a healthy 25 year old with a broken leg?


I made no effort because the conversation was kicked to death already, including several estimates from various hospital staff. It’s not just hospitalizations btw but also deaths (an overcount you’ll remember espola assured us could never happen and led to several states revising their numbers). In any case the conversation bores me. You are increasingly grasping at straws as your world view and narrative crumble around you. 3% is laughable…only you could come up with such a number.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Didn't they have to test everyone to determine whether they needed to be "isolated" or not?


Anyone with symptoms of covid.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> You are increasingly grasping at straws as your world view and narrative crumble around you.


This is true.

Everything he and a set of politicians have advocated for has failed. Not only failed, but has inflicted great harm. 

Combine a highly contagious respiratory virus with human nature, the need to work, etc, we were never going to stop the virus.

You have some die hards out there. The true believers.

Most people are not interested anymore and are becoming increasingly agitated regarding restrictions. 

Dem gov and politicians are changing their stance. And that is because they are looking at polling data and know they are getting killed on the issue.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I made no effort because the conversation was kicked to death already, including several estimates from various hospital staff. It’s not just hospitalizations btw but also deaths (an overcount you’ll remember espola assured us could never happen and led to several states revising their numbers). In any case the conversation bores me. You are increasingly grasping at straws as your world view and narrative crumble around you. 3% is laughable…only you could come up with such a number.


Show me the 40/60 number for summer 2020, back when Fox started making the claim and you all started parroting it.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Show me the 40/60 number for summer 2020, back when Fox started making the claim and you all started parroting it.


Wow, if we apply your theory to the rest of the world the mortality rate drops below 1%.


----------



## Desert Hound

Ah public schools. Where the teachers stand around.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490360311190274053


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Show me the 40/60 number for summer 2020, back when Fox started making the claim and you all started parroting it.


I did way up above (way back when when espola was calling it a fantasy). This is old news.  Yawn.  Have no interest in relitigating it or trying to save you from your delusions. And it’s a spread btw because the data is so bad…most reliable we have is the observations of docs and hospital admins plus the death revisions several states made.


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> This is true.
> 
> Everything he and a set of politicians have advocated for has failed. Not only failed, but has inflicted great harm.
> 
> Combine a highly contagious respiratory virus with human nature, the need to work, etc, we were never going to stop the virus.
> 
> You have some die hards out there. The true believers.
> 
> Most people are not interested anymore and are becoming increasingly agitated regarding restrictions.
> 
> Dem gov and politicians are changing their stance. And that is because they are looking at polling data and know they are getting killed on the issue.


The problem remains the blue cities though even though the state governors are changing. Some areas like downtown Chicago downtown la or mid town Manhattan may not recover.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> There is a database of all vaccinations.  There is a database of all tests run.  You’re describing a merged database query on a few million records.   That’s been easy for decades.


HAHA...I understand how databases work...the question clearly isn't if it is possible, but rather if they are all connected to the same system and working together.  We can create a pretty lengthy list of agencies that fail to work together and provide each other information.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I did way up above (way back when when espola was calling it a fantasy). This is old news.  Yawn.  Have no interest in relitigating it or trying to save you from your delusions. And it’s a spread btw because the data is so bad…most reliable we have is the observations of docs and hospital admins plus the death revisions several states made.


No interest?  You just did.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> There is a database of all vaccinations.  There is a database of all tests run.  You’re describing a merged database query on a few million records.   That’s been easy for decades.


This is a pretty funny statement.  The CDC "encourages" providers to report into the NHSN.  It's always been 100% voluntary to do so.  They don't have the bandwidth to actually enforce anything.  

To be honest, our vaccination rates could be way higher or way lower...they could be a little higher or a little lower...or they could be somewhere in the middle.

Your "database" is an inherently flawed system, as most data bases are that require human input.  It's like OOOPS, I forgot to report last week, what should I report?   Oh yea, that many....sure.  

See how silly it all is?  Bars/graphs, databases, swirling dervishes..... Let's focus on boosting who needs to be boosted, vaccinating those that need vaccinating.  And about those masks...well, wear an N95 if you would like.  But please wear them correctly, virtue signalling now allowed.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Wow, if we apply your theory to the rest of the world the mortality rate drops below 1%.


Yes.  IFR is well below 1%.

Not just my view.  The Economist’s worldwide estimate for deaths is around 15M.    If you have 3B or 4B total infections, that gives you an overall IFR of 0.5% or 0.375%.  Higher earlier in the pandemic, lower now.

I thought we all agreed on that.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yes.  IFR is well below 1%.
> 
> Not just my view.  The Economist’s worldwide estimate for deaths is around 15M.    If you have 3B or 4B total infections, that gives you an overall IFR of 0.5% or 0.375%.  Higher earlier in the pandemic, lower now.
> 
> I thought we all agreed on that.


So a 99.5% survival rate….let that sink in a little.

Now factor in that, by cdc estimates, approx 20-30% of hospitalizations were “WITH” Covid, not “FORM” Covid, therefore you can conclude a % of Deaths were “WITH” not “FROM” lowering the IFR further.

All things many of us were accused of being Conspiracy Theorists for bringing up in 2020 which the CDC is now supporting.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> This is a pretty funny statement.  The CDC "encourages" providers to report into the NHSN.  It's always been 100% voluntary to do so.  They don't have the bandwidth to actually enforce anything.
> 
> To be honest, our vaccination rates could be way higher or way lower...they could be a little higher or a little lower...or they could be somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Your "database" is an inherently flawed system, as most data bases are that require human input.  It's like OOOPS, I forgot to report last week, what should I report?   Oh yea, that many....sure.
> 
> See how silly it all is?  Bars/graphs, databases, swirling dervishes..... Let's focus on boosting who needs to be boosted, vaccinating those that need vaccinating.  And about those masks...well, wear an N95 if you would like.  But please wear them correctly, virtue signalling now allowed.


Think about it.  You have a person named "John Smith".  How do you merge search?  Are you giving out your social when you get tested?  Address (some people have multiple addresses not to mention work addresses as well)?

That's why you can do it on county sites which scan the barcode of your license and have access to the state data base.  But even that's limited as it doesn't magically plug into some central federal merge site.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> No interest?  You just did.


Yawn.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So a 99.5% survival rate….let that sink in a little.


Yep.  99.5% survival rate.  Also known as one death per 200 people.

World War 2 had a pretty good survival rate, too.  Only 80M dead out of 2.3 billion.  97% survival rate.  Guess it wasn’t so bad after all.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yep.  99.5% survival rate.  Also known as one death per 200 people.
> 
> World War 2 had a pretty good survival rate, too.  Only 80M dead out of 2.3 billion.  97% survival rate.  Guess it wasn’t so bad after all.


Like COVID, sort of depends who you are and where you are.   A Jewish person in Poland....not so much.  A soldier on the Russian front....while death is the primary motivator there's a hell of lot of other things to worry about.  A civilian in London during the blitz...despite the risk people went about their daily business keeping the factories open even though many, but not all, of the children were sent to the countryside and they held very many sleepless nights.  An Inca villager in the Andies....you had a pretty good life and WWII touched on only the radio.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Think about it.  You have a person named "John Smith".  How do you merge search?  Are you giving out your social when you get tested?  Address (some people have multiple addresses not to mention work addresses as well)?
> 
> That's why you can do it on county sites which scan the barcode of your license and have access to the state data base.  But even that's limited as it doesn't magically plug into some central federal merge site.


I give my insurance card when I get vaccinated or tested.  So does everyone else who has insurance.  It’s how they are doing the billing.  They also asked for my driver’s license to verify my ID.

So, for 95% or more of the population, they have a primary key.  

More work for the other 5%.  You’re stuck using things like name + birthdate + zip code.   But it works well enough.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Like COVID, sort of depends who you are and where you are.   A Jewish person in Poland....not so much.  A soldier on the Russian front....while death is the primary motivator there's a hell of lot of other things to worry about.  A civilian in London during the blitz...despite the risk people went about their daily business keeping the factories open even though many, but not all, of the children were sent to the countryside and they held very many sleepless nights.  An Inca villager in the Andies....you had a pretty good life and WWII touched on only the radio.


You mean WW2 was a real problem?  But it had a 97% survival rate.  Doesn’t a high survival rate mean we should ignore it?

As Kicker would say, “let that sink in a little”.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yawn.


And now you run away from your own words.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So does everyone else who has insurance.  It’s how they are doing the billing.  They also asked for my driver’s license to verify my ID.


No, not everyone is giving their insurance card.  I agree though the number is probably in the ballpark of five to ten percent somewhere.  No one is doing that extra work particularly since there is no intrastate network.  I can't remember where I saw it but those people are just being lumped into the unvaccinated stat.  The number is probably larger is smaller states with many neighbors or states with many visitors like Hawaii than it is in California.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You mean WW2 was a real problem?  But it had a 97% survival rate.  Doesn’t a high survival rate mean we should ignore it?
> 
> As Kicker would say, “let that sink in a little”.


 I'm saying it depends, much like COVID, on who you are.  My mother had a very pleasant WWII...some of her fondest memories....thank you very much.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And now you run away from your own words.


Yawn.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I did way up above (way back when when espola was calling it a fantasy). This is old news.  Yawn.  Have no interest in relitigating it or trying to save you from your delusions. And it’s a spread btw because the data is so bad…most reliable we have is the observations of docs and hospital admins plus the death revisions several states made.


Old faux news, do it again. Seems what’s “news” to you is sometimes quickly dismissed as agenda driven rhetoric to the rest of the world. You are free to believe what you want, others of us like to see the cold hard facts. Squirm as you might to get your way, that doesn’t change anything out here.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> No interest?  You just did.


“Tried to”


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Yep.  99.5% survival rate.  Also known as one death per 200 people.
> 
> World War 2 had a pretty good survival rate, too.  Only 80M dead out of 2.3 billion.  97% survival rate.  Guess it wasn’t so bad after all.


Such a bad argument...there is survival rates in everything you do everyday, if you are going to calculate the odds of dying for everything you do, you might as well lock yourself in the house. Preventable causes of death 1 in 24 haha really and you talk about numbers, you are 10x's more likely to die of some preventable cause than you are of Covid...such a bad argument 


Lifetime odds of death for selected causes, United States, 2019 Cause of DeathOdds of DyingHeart disease1 in 6Cancer1 in 7All preventable causes of death1 in 24Chronic lower respiratory disease1 in 27Suicide1 in 88Opioid overdose1 in 92Fall1 in 106Motor-vehicle crash1 in 107Gun assault1 in 289


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Like COVID, sort of depends who you are and where you are.   A Jewish person in Poland....not so much.  A soldier on the Russian front....while death is the primary motivator there's a hell of lot of other things to worry about.  A civilian in London during the blitz...despite the risk people went about their daily business keeping the factories open even though many, but not all, of the children were sent to the countryside and they held very many sleepless nights.  An Inca villager in the Andies....you had a pretty good life and WWII touched on only the radio.


Think long term Covid, now let that sink in. Lol!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Tried to”


I'm saying that memory of that transaction depends, much like COVID, on who you are. I have a very pleasant memory of G looking foolish....one of my fondest memories....thank you very much.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Think long term Covid, now let that sink in. Lol!


Long term Covid..LOL Maybe that's kinda like the vaccine will eliminate the virus HAHA


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Show me the 40/60 number for summer 2020, back when Fox started making the claim and you all started parroting it.


Not sure how your original question got sucked into the over count thing.  It has very little impact on the epidemiology. Fodder for rage clicking and cable news bobble heads so I guess fun to argue about.  The mortality over count, however, is one I haven't seen trotted out since the bleach and bright light days.  

Your question, as I took it, was whether the early rise in the case rate for vaxxed compared to unvaxxed was apparent or real.  A numerical issue or reflective of the epidmiology/immunology?  I thought it was an interesting question; thanks for pointing it out. Last night I pulled the case load data ("weekly update breakthoughs" folders) from the NYC site to look at it.  The graph below is what i get for the change in case# (not rate) week to week during omicron in NYC.  Takeaways IMO. 1) Even when viewed as straight up change in case load, vaxx holds up amazingly well, which is good.  2) omicron burns like prairie fire 3) I think the early rise in the unvaxx RATE is likely more apparent than real.  The rate graphs shown earlier express the relative rates as per 100K so they are directly comparable for equivalently sized groups.  But in the data set those groups are not the same size, which is of course the sampling issue that brings the denominator problem up in the first place.  So to do per 100K rates you have to change the numerator to "pull" or "push" the numbers.  That requires numerator shifts of different proportions between the two groups because the case count is so lower with the vaxx population.  So, the way to look at the per 100K graphs is "IF there were equivalent groups of 100K, these are the estimated rates we would expect to see based on our sample".  At least that's my take away.  And it also emphasizes one thing I have tried to stress, which is that if you want the best estimate of VE you need to do random sampling so you can calculate odds instead of rates.  The UK data is still the best AFAIK for omicron in this regard.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No, not everyone is giving their insurance card.  I agree though the number is probably in the ballpark of five to ten percent somewhere.  No one is doing that extra work particularly since there is no intrastate network.  I can't remember where I saw it but those people are just being lumped into the unvaccinated stat.  The number is probably larger is smaller states with many neighbors or states with many visitors like Hawaii than it is in California.


So can we all now claim things we “don’t remember where I saw it”? SMH


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Long term Covid..LOL Maybe that's kinda like the vaccine will eliminate the virus HAHA


Who claimed that?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> HAHA...I understand how databases work...the question clearly isn't if it is possible, but rather if they are all connected to the same system and working together.  We can create a pretty lengthy list of agencies that fail to work together and provide each other information.


I agree the networking of the data reporting is a real issue.  Running it down would likely necessitate a pretty deep dive.  My hunch, which could certainly be off, is that in the end it would circle back to the regulatory footing of the CDC.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm saying it depends, much like COVID, on who you are.  My mother had a very pleasant WWII...some of her fondest memories....thank you very much.


Depending on who you are --  my father dropped out of high school to join the Marines.  My mother was Valedictorian of her high school class of 1944, but instead of going to college (tuition was cheap in those days and she could have lived with her brother who was working in a defense plant in the same city as the University) she took a job in a hospital. I inherited leftover ration coupon booklets.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Old faux news, do it again. Seems what’s “news” to you is sometimes quickly dismissed as agenda driven rhetoric to the rest of the world. You are free to believe what you want, others of us like to see the cold hard facts. Squirm as you might to get your way, that doesn’t change anything out here.


Some of us do science....it's why I gave a spread...because we just don't have the hard data.

Some of us make a bunch of assumptions and come up with a radical hard number like 3 percent.

Throughout this all one side has been doing actual science and critical thinking, and the other side has been doing religion and propaganda.  The funny thing about you and your ilk is that you have prided yourself on being Galileo while it is very obvious that all along you've been the church.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I'm saying that memory of that transaction depends, much like COVID, on who you are. I have a very pleasant memory of G looking foolish....one of my fondest memories....thank you very much.


If we are doing our favorite parts of this thread (now that we are six hundred plus pages in)....mine would be your comedy.

My my all of the Covidians are certainly triggered.  It's funny.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Some of us do science....it's why I gave a spread...because we just don't have the hard data.
> 
> Some of us make a bunch of assumptions and come up with a radical hard number like 3 percent.
> 
> Throughout this all one side has been doing actual science and critical thinking, and the other side has been doing religion and propaganda.  The funny thing about you and your ilk is that you have prided yourself on being Galileo while it is very obvious that all along you've been the church.


Nice try, but the image in your mirror doesn’t lie.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> My hunch, which could certainly be off, is that in the end it would circle back to the regulatory footing of the CDC.


Given how the CDC has been performing throughout all this, if that's where your hunch leads, your hunch is leading you to a dark dysfunctional corner.  Doesn't really inspire confidence in the system.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who claimed that?


Our President LOL HAHAHAHA. Our country is in such trouble!!! Kinda crazy and believe it or not, a lot of people wil llisten to the President of the United States

During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden falsely stated that "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations," and "If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the ICU unit, and you’re not going to die."









						Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
					

Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So can we all now claim things we “don’t remember where I saw it”? SMH


Yawn.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Our President LOL HAHAHAHA. Our country is in such trouble!!! Kinda crazy and believe it or not, a lot of people wil llisten to the President of the United States
> 
> During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden falsely stated that "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations," and "If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the ICU unit, and you’re not going to die."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
> 
> 
> Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


Yes people will listen to the president that is partly why this has drawn out so long and many have suffered because of that. Listen to the experts.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Yawn.


I figured you’d feel that way. Ego clouds the image.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Some of us do science....it's why I gave a spread...because we just don't have the hard data.
> 
> Some of us make a bunch of assumptions and come up with a radical hard number like 3 percent.
> 
> Throughout this all one side has been doing actual science and critical thinking, and the other side has been doing religion and propaganda.  The funny thing about you and your ilk is that you have prided yourself on being Galileo while it is very obvious that all along you've been the church.


That's so bad it's not even wrong.  (paraphrasing W. Pauli)


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I figured you’d feel that way. Ego clouds the image.


Yawn.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's so bad it's not even wrong.  (paraphrasing W. Pauli)


Again, I'm not the one with the crumbling narrative.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yep.  99.5% survival rate.  Also known as one death per 200 people.
> 
> World War 2 had a pretty good survival rate, too.  Only 80M dead out of 2.3 billion.  97% survival rate.  Guess it wasn’t so bad after all.


There were 2.3B people that fought in WW2?  Might want to Fact Check that!

You just can’t stop making up #’s can you?

Maybe 300M Soldiers saw combat and a general estimate of 72M died.

Just stop!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> Think long term Covid, now let that sink in. Lol!


That is the other side of the "no long term testing of vaccines" thing.  We also have little understanding of long term consequences of CoV-2 infection.  I've followed the long hauler thing since it really affects my sister.  One way or another it appears that, even with pretty mild CoV-2 infections, there are effects (direct or indirect) transmitted across the blood brain barrier into the CNS, which can be accompanied by the types of tau protein tangles seen in nerodegenerative/inflammatory disorders.  Long term impacts of that are, of course, unknown.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> You mean WW2 was a real problem?  But it had a 97% survival rate.  Doesn’t a high survival rate mean we should ignore it?
> 
> As Kicker would say, “let that sink in a little”.


Except for your 97% being off by roughly 21%z


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> If we are doing our favorite parts of this thread (now that we are six hundred plus pages in)....mine would be your comedy.
> 
> My my all of the Covidians are certainly triggered.  It's funny.


What's a Covidian?  Or, more to the point, who's a Covidian?

I was just reading along the recent thread occasionally bumping out a rough spot when you brought up what looks like a misstatement about me, confirmed to some degree by your immediately skittering away from it.  

You should know by now that lies about me tend to trigger me.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That is the other side of the "no long term testing of vaccines" thing.  We also have little understanding of long term consequences of CoV-2 infection.  I've followed the long hauler thing since it really affects my sister.  One way or another it appears that, even with pretty mild CoV-2 infections, there are effects (direct or indirect) transmitted across the blood brain barrier into the CNS, which can be accompanied by the types of tau protein tangles seen in nerodegenerative/inflammatory disorders.  Long term impacts of that are, of course, unknown.


Here's is the difference, though, in risk assessment.  For the disease, there is no avoiding it.  The chances of you catching it in your life time are close to one hundred percent (barring of course some new vaccine breakthrough, none of which seem to be on the horizon...though globally what are we at already if you take out China....fifty percent?)  The vaccine is an added roll of the die.  On an individual basis, the benefit therefore depends if it reduces the risk assessment for the inevitable catching of the disease.  For some people, it's obvious.  For children, it isn't.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What's a Covidian?  Or, more to the point, who's a Covidian?
> 
> I was just reading along the recent thread occasionally bumping out a rough spot when you brought up what looks like a misstatement about me, confirmed to some degree by your immediately skittering away from it.
> 
> You should know by now that lies about me tend to trigger me.


Covidian.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Some of us do science....it's why I gave a spread...because we just don't have the hard data.
> 
> Some of us make a bunch of assumptions and come up with a radical hard number like 3 percent.
> 
> Throughout this all one side has been doing actual science and critical thinking, and the other side has been doing religion and propaganda.  The funny thing about you and your ilk is that you have prided yourself on being Galileo while it is very obvious that all along you've been the church.


Grace, where is the ‘science’ in your post?

Sentence 1, Grace praises herself for being sciency.
Sentence 2, Grace insults someone else’s numbers, without actually discussing the computation.
Sentence 3, Grace praises herself for being sciency, and insults her opponents as religious.
Sentence 4, Grace insults her opponents again, also as religious.

Nowhere in any of that do you even begin to discuss science.   Your post is nothing more than a combination of bragging and ad-hominem attacks.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes people will listen to the president that is partly why this has drawn out so long and many have suffered because of that. Listen to the experts.


Where do you think the President gets his info, you don't think he is prepped on what to say?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, where is the ‘science’ in your post?
> 
> Sentence 1, Grace praises herself for being sciency.
> Sentence 2, Grace insults someone else’s numbers, without actually discussing the computation.
> Sentence 3, Grace praises herself for being sciency, and insults her opponents as religious.
> Sentence 4, Grace insults her opponents again, also as religious.
> 
> Nowhere in any of that do you even begin to discuss science.   Your post is nothing more than a combination of bragging and ad-hominem attacks.


This tired routine again.

You were the one that came out with an exact number.  I did nothing of the kind.  I gave a spread and qualified that it was a guestimate by people in the trenches based on flawed and faulty data.  You held onto an exact number you pulled out of your ass.  See the difference?  Or are you going for even more intellectual bankruptcy than that you find yourself in?

p.s. at this point our side is entirely in its rights to brag...we were right...you were wrong....it wasn't even close.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Given how the CDC has been performing throughout all this, if that's where your hunch leads, your hunch is leading you to a dark dysfunctional corner.  Doesn't really inspire confidence in the system.


Dark corner indeed.  I hope you find a place where you feel less disillusioned.  i mean that in a sincere way.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> This tired routine again.
> 
> You were the one that came out with an exact number.  I did nothing of the kind.  I gave a spread and qualified that it was a guestimate by people in the trenches based on flawed and faulty data.  You held onto an exact number you pulled out of your ass.  See the difference?  Or are you going for even more intellectual bankruptcy than that you find yourself in?
> 
> p.s. at this point our side is entirely in its rights to brag...we were right...you were wrong....it wasn't even close.


It appears you think that that helps your position.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Dark corner indeed.  I hope you find a place where you feel less disillusioned.  i mean that in a sincere way.


Public health has torn its reputation to shreds.  It's produced one garbage study after another acting as a propaganda arm.  It has failed to do risk assessment.  It has acted in a blatant political manner.  It's been repeatedly shown to be wrong.  Don't feel sorry for the disillusioned.  Be concerned with why public health did this and how it's ever going to fix this, particularly if in our lifetimes we need it again.  It's reputation is in the toilet...if we get another 10 years down the road (as you have articulated a fear of) what do you think is going to happen?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It appears you think that that helps your position.


Covidian


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Public health has torn its reputation to shreds.  It's produced one garbage study after another acting as a propaganda arm.  It has failed to do risk assessment.  It has acted in a blatant political manner.  It's been repeatedly shown to be wrong.  Don't feel sorry for the disillusioned.  Be concerned with why public health did this and how it's ever going to fix this, particularly if in our lifetimes we need it again.  It's reputation is in the toilet...if we get another 10 years down the road (as you have articulated a fear of) what do you think is going to happen?


Coocoo.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Not sure how your original question got sucked into the over count thing.  It has very little impact on the epidemiology. Fodder for rage clicking and cable news bobble heads so I guess fun to argue about.  The mortality over count, however, is one I haven't seen trotted out since the bleach and bright light days.
> 
> Your question, as I took it, was whether the early rise in the case rate for vaxxed compared to unvaxxed was apparent or real.  A numerical issue or reflective of the epidmiology/immunology?  I thought it was an interesting question; thanks for pointing it out. Last night I pulled the case load data ("weekly update breakthoughs" folders) from the NYC site to look at it.  The graph below is what i get for the change in case# (not rate) week to week during omicron in NYC.  Takeaways IMO. 1) Even when viewed as straight up change in case load, vaxx holds up amazingly well, which is good.  2) omicron burns like prairie fire 3) I think the early rise in the unvaxx RATE is likely more apparent than real.  The rate graphs shown earlier express the relative rates as per 100K so they are directly comparable for equivalently sized groups.  But in the data set those groups are not the same size, which is of course the sampling issue that brings the denominator problem up in the first place.  So to do per 100K rates you have to change the numerator to "pull" or "push" the numbers.  That requires numerator shifts of different proportions between the two groups because the case count is so lower with the vaxx population.  So, the way to look at the per 100K graphs is "IF there were equivalent groups of 100K, these are the estimated rates we would expect to see based on our sample".  At least that's my take away.  And it also emphasizes one thing I have tried to stress, which is that if you want the best estimate of VE you need to do random sampling so you can calculate odds instead of rates.  The UK data is still the best AFAIK for omicron in this regard.
> 
> View attachment 12880


Thanks.

I was less wondering about vaccine efficiency.  (That is established by now.  Yes, it works.)

I was more hoping that it could tell me something about the role of NPI among vaccinated people.  But, if the time lag is minor or illusory, there is less information to be had.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> There is a database of all vaccinations.  There is a database of all tests run.  You’re describing a merged database query on a few million records.   That’s been easy for decades.


So how does this work with the made up numbers and projections you try and create.  You should be careful, people that use statistics in the wrong way can be very dangerous spreaders of misinformation!!!! But then again, maybe you are even smarter than the doctor and math modeler from BU? 

Brooke Nichols, a health economist and infectious disease mathematical modeler at Boston University, said "vaccinated individuals can definitely infect other people. There is enough data to support this."

"While vaccinated individuals may be less infectious and infectious for a shorter duration of time they are by no means a dead-end host," Nichols said. "When calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated, though, it makes it sound as those vaccinated individuals aren’t substantially contributing to new cases — which they are (particularly now). Unvaccinated individuals do, however, continue to contribute disproportionately to hospitalizations and deaths."

*However, Nichols added, "I don’t think the data systems in place can tell us anything about the proportion of new infections that originated from a vaccinated or unvaccinated person."*









						PolitiFact - Biden says that vaccinated people can’t spread COVID-19. That’s not what CDC says.
					

As President Joe Biden heads toward his second year in office of leading the country through a pandemic, he faces the ch




					www.politifact.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


I couldn't have done it with your excellent setup work.


----------



## whatithink

Kicker 2.0 said:


> There were 2.3B people that fought in WW2?  Might want to Fact Check that!
> 
> You just can’t stop making up #’s can you?
> 
> Maybe 300M Soldiers saw combat and a general estimate of 72M died.
> 
> Just stop!


I'm pretty sure the point was the Covid survival rate constantly quoted is based on deaths vs total population (WW), so comparing the WW2 deaths vs total population (WW) is equivalent.

2/3s approx. of the WW2 deaths were non military BTW.

Nice info here - World War II casualties - Wikipedia


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I couldn't have done it with your excellent setup work.


Funny   You are the king of comedy of these threads.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure the point was the Covid survival rate constantly quoted is based on deaths vs total population (WW), so comparing the WW2 deaths vs total population (WW) is equivalent.
> 
> 2/3s approx. of the WW2 deaths were non military BTW.
> 
> Nice info here - World War II casualties - Wikipedia


Flawed thinking again from the Covidians.  Everyone on the planet is eventually going to catch COVID.  Not everyone fought or was exposed to front line effects of war in WWII.  Again, my mother spent a perfectly happy WWII....some of the best time of her life.  Civilian deaths in the US also not a big deal.  Nor civilian deaths in India.  Wouldn't want to be a Jewish person in warsaw, however, or a Japanese person in Hiroshima.  And then you have the great middle like civilians in France or Britain.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure the point was the Covid survival rate constantly quoted is based on deaths vs total population (WW), so comparing the WW2 deaths vs total population (WW) is equivalent.
> 
> 2/3s approx. of the WW2 deaths were non military BTW.
> 
> Nice info here - World War II casualties - Wikipedia


The Covid Survival Rate I’ve always referred to is Cases V Deaths. 

Understanding the “collateral damage” of WW2, but they weren’t actively involved in the battle.  If you’d like to further drill down categories of excess mortality of WW2 in order to include some of them, OK but we would have to agree on them,  not just lump them in.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes people will listen to the president that is partly why this has drawn out so long and many have suffered because of that. Listen to the experts.


Aren’t the “experts” the ones advising the President?

Fauci also said it….is he not considered and expert (we may even agree on this)?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


It's been a while. I missed it. Truly his greatest contribution to the thread.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> So how does this work with the made up numbers and projections you try and create.  You should be careful, people that use statistics in the wrong way can be very dangerous spreaders of misinformation!!!! But then again, maybe you are even smarter than the doctor and math modeler from BU?
> 
> Brooke Nichols, a health economist and infectious disease mathematical modeler at Boston University, said "vaccinated individuals can definitely infect other people. There is enough data to support this."
> 
> "While vaccinated individuals may be less infectious and infectious for a shorter duration of time they are by no means a dead-end host," Nichols said. "When calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated, though, it makes it sound as those vaccinated individuals aren’t substantially contributing to new cases — which they are (particularly now). Unvaccinated individuals do, however, continue to contribute disproportionately to hospitalizations and deaths."
> 
> *However, Nichols added, "I don’t think the data systems in place can tell us anything about the proportion of new infections that originated from a vaccinated or unvaccinated person."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Biden says that vaccinated people can’t spread COVID-19. That’s not what CDC says.
> 
> 
> As President Joe Biden heads toward his second year in office of leading the country through a pandemic, he faces the ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com


Link to NEJM letter, discussing ways to estimate whether vaccination reduces your ability to spread the virus:



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757#article_citing_articles
		


Science is complicated  Nichols thinks it can’t be accurately estimated with data systems.  Others are busy building estimates based on housemates of vaccinated health care workers.

The two statements aren’t even in opposition.  I’d certainly agree that a data system swag is no match for a housemate study.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Flawed thinking again from the Covidians.  Everyone on the planet is eventually going to catch COVID.  Not everyone fought or was exposed to front line effects of war in WWII.  Again, my mother spent a perfectly happy WWII....some of the best time of her life.  Civilian deaths in the US also not a big deal.  Nor civilian deaths in India.  Wouldn't want to be a Jewish person in warsaw, however, or a Japanese person in Hiroshima.  And then you have the great middle like civilians in France or Britain.


I'm sure you are bright enough to understand the words I wrote, but can't help with the labelling - it must be a comfort to you.

You also may want to rethink India, say, and pause before going off on one as you do.

Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Covidian


You use that term a lot.  It's a new word to me, so I looked up the definition.  There seems to be a lot of variability.  Before I respond, could you enlighten us with what you intended to mean there?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You use that term a lot.  It's a new word to me, so I looked up the definition.  There seems to be a lot of variability.  Before I respond, could you enlighten us with what you intended to mean there?


Yawn.  Covidian.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I'm sure you are bright enough to understand the words I wrote, but can't help with the labelling - it must be a comfort to you.
> 
> You also may want to rethink India, say, and pause before going off on one as you do.
> 
> Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia


Good point about the Bengal famine.  The other problem, though, it points out with this data set is how you take into account indirect deaths (other than by bomb).  Even the Holocaust...does it count because the Nazis would have pursued the policy absent WWII? Spanish civil war?  It's a good point, and another reason why the analogy doesn't really work.   To even get close to COVID, you'd have to remove COVID deaths results from policy (such as the opiod and delayed treatments problems) from the deaths.  I'm sure dad4 would have fun with that one!


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure the point was the Covid survival rate constantly quoted is based on deaths vs total population (WW), so comparing the WW2 deaths vs total population (WW) is equivalent.
> 
> 2/3s approx. of the WW2 deaths were non military BTW.
> 
> Nice info here - World War II casualties - Wikipedia


I was mostly pointing out that “survival rate” is the appropriate metric for only _extremely_ bad situations.  

A worldwide event with a “99% survival rate“ is a catastrophe.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Link to NEJM letter, discussing ways to estimate whether vaccination reduces your ability to spread the virus:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757#article_citing_articles
> 
> 
> 
> Science is complicated  Nichols thinks it can’t be accurately estimated with data systems.  Others are busy building estimates based on housemates of vaccinated health care workers.
> 
> The two statements aren’t even in opposition.  I’d certainly agree that a data system swag is no match for a housemate study.


Two very big problems with your article. Most importantly, your letter *doesn't include Omicron*, which has drastically changed the way every scientist now approaches Covid and the spread. And even then, the letter states, "_Given that vaccination reduces asymptomatic infection with SARS-CoV-2,2,3 it is *plausible that vaccination reduces transmission; however, data from clinical trials and observational studies are lacking*.4,5"_

Plausible and lacking are far from concrete evidence. So once again, for you to make broad assumptions using your own math is dangerous misinformation that is harmful to the community.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yawn.  Covidian.


So it's just a meaningless insult.  That's what I thought.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was less wondering about vaccine efficiency.  (That is established by now.  Yes, it works.)
> 
> I was more hoping that it could tell me something about the role of NPI among vaccinated people.  But, if the time lag is minor or illusory, there is less information to be had.


In that case, PubMed is your friend.  Lots of population and lab-based analysis going on.  Anything with "Free PMC" won't hit a paywall.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So it's just a meaningless insult.  That's what I thought.


Double yawn.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Good point about the Bengal famine.  The other problem, though, it points out with this data set is how you take into account indirect deaths (other than by bomb).  Even the Holocaust...does it count because the Nazis would have pursued the policy absent WWII? Spanish civil war?  It's a good point, and another reason why the analogy doesn't really work.   To even get close to COVID, you'd have to remove COVID deaths results from policy (such as the opiod and delayed treatments problems) from the deaths.  I'm sure dad4 would have fun with that one!


Don‘t count me in for that.  You don’t remove covid deaths resulting from policy.  

If you subtract out the costs of covid policies, then you must also subtract out any benefits received from those same policies.  It becomes speculative.

Better to look at the events, such as they were.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A worldwide event with a “99% survival rate“ is a catastrophe.


That's not the end of the thought experiment though.  The argument has always been:
1. There's a real disconnect though between something being a global catastrophe and individual risk assessment.  As I pointed out before, WWII may have been a global catastrophe but for my mother it was probably the best time of her life.  For children COVID was never a threat. For the elderly it's been a real concern and a bigger catastrophe than the general population IFR suggests.
2.  Even if it is a catastrophe, what exactly can we do about it?   WWII was a man made decision.  Had WWII happened or not it is likely the holocaust numbers would have happened anyways.  The only thing that might have stopped that was an earlier decision by the allies to go to war either after Austria or Czechoslovakia.  The San Francisco Earthquake, Black Death, and the Tonga volcano eruptions were also catastrophes.  Irrespective of what we did with COVID, a certain amount of death was always going to be baked in.  Again, short of a time machine where we go back and stop the likely lab leak.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Don‘t count me in for that.  You don’t remove covid deaths resulting from policy.
> 
> If you subtract out the costs of covid policies, then you must also subtract out any benefits received from those same policies.  It becomes speculative.
> 
> Better to look at the events, such as they were.


Well, I think then we all agree, thanks in part to whatithink, that the analogy is of limited utility. At least we can agree on that.


----------



## Grace T.

Hey look....I thought espola assured us it wasn't about politics.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/02/09/mask-mandate-end-governors-politics/


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> Two very big problems with your article. Most importantly, your letter *doesn't include Omicron*, which has drastically changed the way every scientist now approaches Covid and the spread. And even then, the letter states, "_Given that vaccination reduces asymptomatic infection with SARS-CoV-2,2,3 it is *plausible that vaccination reduces transmission; however, data from clinical trials and observational studies are lacking*.4,5"_
> 
> Plausible and lacking are far from concrete evidence. So once again, for you to make broad assumptions using your own math is dangerous misinformation that is harmful to the community.


The distinction in the highlighted sentence is basically saying that monitoring infection is an indirect metric for transmission.  To more directly assess transmission you need something like viral titer loads in infected vaxx vs unvaxx people.  In the intervening time studies along that line has been done and I've linked them at some point.  A reduction in titers was observed.


----------



## Brav520

The swerve we have seen this week on Covid restrictions are based on changing science and has nothing to do with these numbers below

WATCH: This new CNN poll on Biden is BRUTAL....
Approval - 41%
Disapproval - 58%

What has Biden done well?
56% - Nothing/disapprove of everything

Feeling about COVID pandemic?
75% burned out


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> The swerve we have seen this week on Covid restrictions are based on changing science and has nothing to do with these numbers below
> 
> WATCH: This new CNN poll on Biden is BRUTAL....
> Approval - 41%
> Disapproval - 58%
> 
> What has Biden done well?
> 56% - Nothing/disapprove of everything
> 
> Feeling about COVID pandemic?
> 75% burned out


Nevada just dropped its mask requirements.  Hawaii its booster requirements for tourists.  Looks like the big blue cities will be the last redoubts of COVID policy but they will kill their public school systems and downtowns as a result.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Good point about the Bengal famine.  The other problem, though, it points out with this data set is how you take into account indirect deaths (other than by bomb).  Even the Holocaust...does it count because the Nazis would have pursued the policy absent WWII? Spanish civil war?  It's a good point, and another reason why the analogy doesn't really work.   To even get close to COVID, you'd have to remove COVID deaths results from policy (such as the opiod and delayed treatments problems) from the deaths.  I'm sure dad4 would have fun with that one!


The analogy, as I took it, was at an holistic level of two events that impacted the world (S. America could easily have entered the war if some events went another way, and there was a lot of Nazi sympathizers there, as demo'd by it being a flight destination and safe haven for them after the war). The Nazi policy would have been restricted to Germany so less Holocaust deaths, Spanish Civil war predated WW2, Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937 and deaths from that are (I assume) included etc. and so on. 

The general premise, again as I took it, was that quoting survivability rates of 99.5% (or whatever) is made to sound acceptable, when that as a % of 8B people results in millions or tens of millions of deaths.

The holistic comparison obviously falls apart when you drill into details as the events are not comparable.


----------



## soccersc

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The distinction in the highlighted sentence is basically saying that monitoring infection is an indirect metric for transmission.  To more directly assess transmission you need something like viral titer loads in infected vaxx vs unvaxx people.  In the intervening time studies along that line has been done and I've linked them at some point.  A reduction in titers was observed.


I agree, but @dad4 isn't using those metrics, he is simply stating case rates, which is far from accurate and has been my whole argument with his numbers in the first place. 

Were your viral load studies pre or post Omicron?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's not the end of the thought experiment though.  The argument has always been:
> 1. There's a real disconnect though between something being a global catastrophe and individual risk assessment.  As I pointed out before, WWII may have been a global catastrophe but for my mother it was probably the best time of her life.  For children COVID was never a threat. For the elderly it's been a real concern and a bigger catastrophe than the general population IFR suggests.
> 2.  Even if it is a catastrophe, what exactly can we do about it?   WWII was a man made decision.  Had WWII happened or not it is likely the holocaust numbers would have happened anyways.  The only thing that might have stopped that was an earlier decision by the allies to go to war either after Austria or Czechoslovakia.  The San Francisco Earthquake, Black Death, and the Tonga volcano eruptions were also catastrophes.  Irrespective of what we did with COVID, a certain amount of death was always going to be baked in.  Again, short of a time machine where we go back and stop the likely lab leak.


I am curious to know more about your mother's WW2 experience that made it seem so pleasant.

My own little contribution to parental history --when I was first learning about the Great Depression, I asked my mother how it affected her life.  She said that because they lived on a farm they were already poor.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hey look....I thought espola assured us it wasn't about politics.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/02/09/mask-mandate-end-governors-politics/


Assured?  I just pointed out some facts.  That is only political if you feel threatened by the facts.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> The analogy, as I took it, was at an holistic level of two events that impacted the world (S. America could easily have entered the war if some events went another way, and there was a lot of Nazi sympathizers there, as demo'd by it being a flight destination and safe haven for them after the war). The Nazi policy would have been restricted to Germany so less Holocaust deaths, Spanish Civil war predated WW2, Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937 and deaths from that are (I assume) included etc. and so on.
> 
> The general premise, again as I took it, was that quoting survivability rates of 99.5% (or whatever) is made to sound acceptable, when that as a % of 8B people results in millions or tens of millions of deaths.
> 
> The holistic comparison obviously falls apart when you drill into details as the events are not comparable.


Agree with your final sentence.  See my post above.  1.  The issue has always been the disconnected between the macro impact and the micro risk assessment....99.5 percent (higher for many age groups) translates into very little risk, and 2. just because it's a catastrophe doesn't mean that it's avoidable....some level of death was always baked in so we are arguing about the margins.   It's telling you use the words "acceptable"....some of you have never wanted to accept (ha ha!) that it wasn't about whether something was acceptable or not....some portion of this was inevitable.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Assured?  I just pointed out some facts.  That is only political if you feel threatened by the facts.


Haha!  You are at your best when you are doing comedy.



espola said:


> I am curious to know more about your mother's WW2 experience that made it seem so pleasant.
> 
> My own little contribution to parental history --when I was first learning about the Great Depression, I asked my mother how it affected her life.  She said that because they lived on a farm they were already poor.


Told you already.  Small village, Peru.  Completely uninterrupted childhood (which is much more than we can say for any kids today, whether Peru or otherwise).


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> I agree, but @dad4 isn't using those metrics, he is simply stating case rates, which is far from accurate and has been my whole argument with his numbers in the first place.
> 
> Were your viral load studies pre or post Omicron?


with both delta and omicron as i recall.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> but they will kill their public school systems and downtowns as a result.


Good thing forward-thinking SF already did this. They won't even notice.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's not the end of the thought experiment though.  The argument has always been:
> 1. There's a real disconnect though between something being a global catastrophe and individual risk assessment.  As I pointed out before, WWII may have been a global catastrophe but for my mother it was probably the best time of her life.  For children COVID was never a threat. For the elderly it's been a real concern and a bigger catastrophe than the general population IFR suggests.
> 2.  Even if it is a catastrophe, what exactly can we do about it?   WWII was a man made decision.  Had WWII happened or not it is likely the holocaust numbers would have happened anyways.  The only thing that might have stopped that was an earlier decision by the allies to go to war either after Austria or Czechoslovakia.  The San Francisco Earthquake, Black Death, and the Tonga volcano eruptions were also catastrophes.  Irrespective of what we did with COVID, a certain amount of death was always going to be baked in.  Again, short of a time machine where we go back and stop the likely lab leak.


The Sudetenland issue stemmed from what a large portion of the German population thought was one of the injustices of the Versailles treaty.  Rather than follow Wilson's ideal of national self-determination, the Sudeten Germans were included in the fictitious new nation of Czechoslovakia following provincial boundaries of the dead Austria-Hungary Empire.  Allowing the Sudeten Germans to become part of 1918 Germany would have eliminated this issue before it began.

As for the Anschluss union with Austria -- both nations overwhelmingly supported it in spite of another chapter of the Versailles Treaty that forbids it.   

Hitler was able to take advantage of a broad inferiority  complex infecting the people of Germany to such an extent that they were willing to overlook his obvious continuing crimes.  I have it on good authority that that technique still works in this Century.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Agree with your final sentence.  See my post above.  1.  The issue has always been the disconnected between the macro impact and the micro risk assessment....99.5 percent (higher for many age groups) translates into very little risk, and 2. just because it's a catastrophe doesn't mean that it's avoidable....some level of death was always baked in so we are arguing about the margins.   It's telling you use the words "acceptable"....some of you have never wanted to accept (ha ha!) that it wasn't about whether something was acceptable or not....some portion of this was inevitable.


There's no doubt, and never has been any, that deaths were and are inevitable. Its about the number, i.e. may I prefer smaller portion sizes to others.


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> The Sudetenland issue stemmed from what a large portion of the German population thought was one of the injustices of the Versailles treaty.  Rather than follow Wilson's ideal of national self-determination, the Sudeten Germans were included in the fictitious new nation of Czechoslovakia following provincial boundaries of the dead Austria-Hungary Empire.  Allowing the Sudeten Germans to become part of 1918 Germany would have eliminated this issue before it began.
> 
> As for the Anschluss union with Austria -- both nations overwhelmingly supported it in spite of another chapter of the Versailles Treaty that forbids it.
> 
> Hitler was able to take advantage of a broad inferiority  complex infecting the people of Germany to such an extent that they were willing to overlook his obvious continuing crimes.  I have it on good authority that that technique still works in this Century.


Yeah, at its simplest level, the Treaty of Versailles caused WW2. The Marshall Plan followed by the EEC (1957) have enabled peace in Europe for longer than basically ever.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Think long term Covid, now let that sink in. Lol!


Long term covid?  What does that even mean?  Oh yea, it's what you heard some "scientist" and "MD" call it on tv.  Are those the same studies that are going to parallell long term covid vaccine studies - for ulittles?


----------



## what-happened

soccersc said:


> Our President LOL HAHAHAHA. Our country is in such trouble!!! Kinda crazy and believe it or not, a lot of people wil llisten to the President of the United States
> 
> During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden falsely stated that "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations," and "If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the ICU unit, and you’re not going to die."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
> 
> 
> Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


What's even funnier is that he didn't pull this out of thin air.  His team told him to say this.  Science and medicine coming out of any WH is agenda driven.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> There's no doubt, and never has been any, that deaths were and are inevitable. Its about the number, i.e. may I prefer smaller portion sizes to others.


1. That's patently not true.  Maybe for you (and maybe not even for dad4) but there has been some group of people including among the expert class who supported COVID zero (at least up until it became clear the vaccines wouldn't do that).  China still is wedded to COVID zero.
2. The other complaint from our side has always been that you all (again maybe not you, but certainly others, and here I would include dad4) have refused to do a cost/benefit analysis...instead always exaggerating the benefit and minimizing the cost (e.g., masks have no costs).  We, from the beginning, urged a cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## Grace T.

Here's what I sincerely hope is my last prediction in these COVID forums.  COVID has eroded the public trust in institutions, particularly on the right, to such a point that the legitimacy of the entire system is hanging by a thread.  Little things like this might be enough to push that thread over to the breaking point.  You can judge me in four years time but I tell you now we are teetering dangerously close to the societal consensus falling apart.  What's happening up in Canada with the truckers is just a small taste of things to come.





__





						The Biden Appointee Who Could Change the Constitution
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. That's patently not true.  Maybe for you (and maybe not even for dad4) but there has been some group of people including among the expert class who supported COVID zero (at least up until it became clear the vaccines wouldn't do that).  China still is wedded to COVID zero.
> 2. The other complaint from our side has always been that you all (again maybe not you, but certainly others, and here I would include dad4) have refused to do a cost/benefit analysis...instead always exaggerating the benefit and minimizing the cost (e.g., masks have no costs).  We, from the beginning, urged a cost/benefit analysis.


Even Birx was pretty clear that most of the deaths were preventable.

The right has been very consistent on this.  First, they openly discourage people from following the heath guidance.  Then, they point to the non compliance as proof that nothing can be done.

It has been the story with test and trace, then masks, then distance, then vaccines.  Every time there is a credible way to reduce cases and deaths from covid, the right wing mobilizes to discourage people from doing it.

The only anti-covid measure the right seems to support is to medicate people after they get sick.  

That isn’t “cost/benefit analysis”.  That is obstructionism.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> So it's just a meaningless insult.  That's what I thought.


Meant for a very meaningless old man who lurks on 
this forum.
Your run is over.


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> What's even funnier is that he didn't pull this out of thin air.  His team told him to say this.  Science and medicine coming out of any WH is agenda driven.


Exactly!! That is what I was saying to @Hüsker Dü when he said listen to the experts...and he doesnt think the President listens to experts??? How funny is that.  @Hüsker Dü got that one wrong!!!  The fact is they claimed a lot and have been wrong on most, once people start realizing that, the sooner we will be out of this mess


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Even Birx was pretty clear that most of the deaths were preventable.
> 
> The right has been very consistent on this.  First, they openly discourage people from following the heath guidance.  Then, they point to the non compliance as proof that nothing can be done.
> 
> It has been the story with test and trace, then masks, then distance, then vaccines.  Every time there is a credible way to reduce cases and deaths from covid, the right wing mobilizes to discourage people from doing it.
> 
> The only anti-covid measure the right seems to support is to medicate people after they get sick.
> 
> That isn’t “cost/benefit analysis”.  That is obstructionism.


See whatithink.  This is exhibit A....even though it's not zero dad4 is still holding onto "most of the deaths were preventable".  Then to top it off he totally neglects the cost/benefit analysis.  And round and round in circles we go.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That is the other side of the "no long term testing of vaccines" thing.  We also have little understanding of long term consequences of CoV-2 infection.  I've followed the long hauler thing since it really affects my sister.  One way or another it appears that, even with pretty mild CoV-2 infections, there are effects (direct or indirect) transmitted across the blood brain barrier into the CNS, which can be accompanied by the types of tau protein tangles seen in nerodegenerative/inflammatory disorders.  Long term impacts of that are, of course, unknown.


Inflammation is a double edged sword.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Where do you think the President gets his info, you don't think he is prepped on what to say?


Does going off the teleprompter surprise or anger you? You must have gone ballistic during the previous administration! Lol! Biden often misspeaks (the last guy did too). Did anyone from the CDC or pharma companies say it was a cure?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Aren’t the “experts” the ones advising the President?
> 
> Fauci also said it….is he not considered and expert (we may even agree on this)?


Fauci? Where?


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Does going off the teleprompter surprise or anger you? You must have gone ballistic during the previous administration! Lol! Biden often misspeaks (the last guy did too). Did anyone from the CDC or pharma companies say it was a cure?


I'll actually agree with some of what you said about misspeaking, that is for sure....but you can not say you know for sure that he got that from a teleprompter, you are assuming.

CDC was very tricky in how they originally posted the effectiveness of the vaccine, they said it was 90% less likely to get infected...that pretty much makes the claim you aren't going to get it...we know now that is not true, but a lot of people felt if they got the shot they wouldn't get Covid and that was my point in the argument....how can you disagree with that?  They were wrong then because they didn't know, they were assuming as well, just like you and the teleprompter 

In a report published today in the _MMWR_, scientists at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) report more good news from real-world studies of people who have been vaccinated against COVID-19.

In the study involving 3,950 health care workers, first responders and other essential workers who were vaccinated between December 2020 and March 2021, *the researchers found that the two-dose vaccines are 90% effective in protecting people from getting infected with SARS-CoV-2, *the virus behind COVID-19.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad being a math major misses the obvious. When he/they talk about 99.5 survival rate dad misses the point. 

For the overwhelming majority of people the survival rate is substantially higher. There are really only a couple of groups that have real risk. 

For the rest of us, little to no risk. 

You can use the WW2 example. Hey the Russian army took horrendous casualties. TRUE. But if you were stationed in the rear...lets say in Moscow you had no risk. 

On the US if you are on the front lines, death is a real concern. Working in the Pentagon not so much. 

Almost all the world effectively is in the Pentagon. No real concern. And it is precisely because of that simple and yet obvious fact that we should never have shuttered biz, closed schools, mandate useless masks, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Even Birx was pretty clear that most of the deaths were preventable.


Most deaths were not preventable. 

You simply cannot shut everything down and have everyone isolate in their house. It isn't feasible in the least. 

You live and have been living in fantasy land.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fauci? Where?


How many times can you be wrong in one day?  And I don't even blame you because there are a lot of people who are misinformed just like you that have created this ridiculous mess we are in...please stay informed

Fauci absolutely said the vaccine will, in his words, "be a dead end to the virus" What else could that possibly mean? Please spin? He was so wrong, like I was telling you in the first place!!!

"So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but *very, very low likelihood *— that they're going to transmit it," Fauci said.
"When you get vaccinated, you not only protect your own health and that of the family but also you contribute to the community health by *preventing the spread of the virus *throughout the community," Fauci said. "*In other words, you become a dead end to the virus*. And when there are a lot of dead ends around, the virus is not going to go anywhere. And that's when you get a point that you have a markedly diminished rate of infection in the community." 









						Fauci: Vaccinated people become ‘dead ends’ for the coronavirus
					

Anthony Fauci, chief medical adviser to President Biden, said during a discussion on Sunday about the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) decision to drop mask recommendati…




					thehill.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> See whatithink.  This is exhibit A....even though it's not zero dad4 is still holding onto "most of the deaths were preventable".  Then to top it off he totally neglects the cost/benefit analysis.  And round and round in circles we go.


 The right wing anti-vax movement gave us an extra 200K deaths during delta.  I see the cost.  What was the benefit?  

You keep saying “cost benefit analysis“, so let’s do some.  What bad things would have happened if the red third of the country had gotten their covid shots before delta hit?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Does going off the teleprompter surprise or anger you? You must have gone ballistic during the previous administration! Lol! Biden often misspeaks (the last guy did too). Did anyone from the CDC or pharma companies say it was a cure?


So Biden, CNN and MSNBC were also guilty of spreading misinformation?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fauci? Where?


His exact words were, that vaccinated people essentially become “dead ends” for the virus to spread.

So I must correct my statement.

touché


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The right wing anti-vax movement gave us an extra 200K deaths during delta.  I see the cost.  What was the benefit?
> 
> You keep saying “cost benefit analysis“, so let’s do some.  What bad things would have happened if the red third of the country had gotten their covid shots before delta hit?


That's not how you do a cost/benefit analysis.  You can't do "what would have happened if the red third of the country had listened to my preaching and repented".  You have to analyze a policy.  To do a proper analysis you need to know the hypothetical policy (instead what you do is you pull out an unsupported number like 200K out of your ass).  What's even more funny if you have cost/benefit entirely reversed (the benefit of the policy is lives saved...the cost is the cost of the policy).

Shall we rehash masks on kids?  Benefit: small....cloth masks are apparently "facial decorations", Kn95s for them are in large part counterfeit and surgicals aren't properly fitted, they are at incredibly small risk, they seem to transmit less.  Cost: torturing at risk kids (deaf, toddlers, ADHD, autism), depression and mental illness scars, environmental, speech and learning delays, incidents with people thrown off flight and other confrontations, societal relationships.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The right wing anti-vax movement gave us an extra 200K deaths during delta.


You love pulling numbers out of thin air. 

3% here
200k there
70-80% mask effectiveness there
and so on. 

And as the real world data around him has shown him to be wrong...doubles down on the initial pronouncements/theories. 

Using the war analogy again...you would have been one of the first generals stripped of his position in WW2. We had lots of generals who read their textbooks, but when actual fighting began were unable to adapt to the realities on the ground. We burned through a lot of them before we found the right people.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's not how you do a cost/benefit analysis.  You can't do "what would have happened if the red third of the country had listened to my preaching and repented".  You have to analyze a policy.  To do a proper analysis you need to know the hypothetical policy (instead what you do is you pull out an unsupported number like 200K out of your ass).  What's even more funny if you have cost/benefit entirely reversed (the benefit of the policy is lives saved...the cost is the cost of the policy).
> 
> Shall we rehash masks on kids?  Benefit: small....cloth masks are apparently "facial decorations", Kn95s for them are in large part counterfeit and surgicals aren't properly fitted, they are at incredibly small risk, they seem to transmit less.  Cost: torturing at risk kids (deaf, toddlers, ADHD, autism), depression and mental illness scars, environmental, speech and learning delays, incidents with people thrown off flight and other confrontations, societal relationships.


I expected numbers.  You give us handwaving.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I expected numbers.  You give us handwaving.


Another winning contribution on your part.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So Biden, CNN and MSNBC were also guilty of spreading misinformation?


You weren’t going to get any politician to give you a probability explanation for how vaccines slow transmission.  Politicians are trying to communicate with average people, and average people like to think in absolutes.  The mask works, or it doesn’t.  You trust your vaccine or you don’t.  

Look at how many people here read “can still spread the virus, at some rate”, and conclude “the vaccine has no effect on transmission.   The first statement is true, but blurry.  The second is false, but absolute.  But people like the absolute, so most people here believe the second version, even though it is false.

Biden’s “Dead end to the virus” is false, but it is closer to the truth than the right wing’s repeated claim of equal transmission rates.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Another winning contribution on your part.


Socratic method.


----------



## soccersc

Desert Hound said:


> You love pulling numbers out of thin air.
> 
> 3% here
> 200k there
> 70-80% mask effectiveness there
> and so on.
> 
> And as the real world data around him has shown him to be wrong...doubles down on the initial pronouncements/theories.
> 
> Using the war analogy again...you would have been one of the first generals stripped of his position in WW2. We had lots of generals who read their textbooks, but when actual fighting began were unable to adapt to the realities on the ground. We burned through a lot of them before we found the right people.



So true... @dad4 has a big problem the data "science" is not really in his favor anymore so he has to create his own numbers...misuse use of statistics, a very manipulating way to try and convince others of a falsehood


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Socratic method.


I'm telling you.  You rock with the comedy.  Missed your calling.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm telling you.  You rock with the comedy.  Missed your calling.


I have such a great straight man.

You preach a lot of "cost/benefit analysis", but you never show one.


----------



## Grace T.

soccersc said:


> So true... @dad4 has a big problem the data "science" is not really in his favor anymore so he has to create his own numbers...misuse use of statistics, a very manipulating way to try and convince others of a falsehood


I don't think at this point he's really trying to convince anyone.  The narrative is crumbling around him (he's been basically alone at it with the exceptions of the trolls and maybe sometimes NorCalDad) and he's doing his best to rationalize things to himself.  We know he's scared (wandering around in his N95 in the market despite being fully vaxxed....he basically came outright close to saying it a few weeks ago).  It would be the end of his world view were he (and others like him) to admit its all for naught, so the best they can come up with is "the science changed" whereas we all (even the Washington Post from the article I posted up above) know that what changed was the politics (and it's the same reason things aren't changing in the blue check cities).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I have such a great straight man.
> 
> You preach a lot of "cost/benefit analysis", but you never show one.


Awwww love you too.  Hugs.

p.s. I did....it's not my fault no one ever produced a mask study to show their effect after two plus years and the best we have is the Bangladesh study showing no statistical effect of cloth masks on adults.  It's funny too you seem to think C/B is suppose to give you a number at the end...it doesn't and a lot of it is a value judgement too.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That's not how you do a cost/benefit analysis.  You can't do "what would have happened if the red third of the country had listened to my preaching and repented".  You have to analyze a policy.  To do a proper analysis you need to know the hypothetical policy (instead what you do is you pull out an unsupported number like 200K out of your ass).  What's even more funny if you have cost/benefit entirely reversed (the benefit of the policy is lives saved...the cost is the cost of the policy).
> 
> Shall we rehash masks on kids?  Benefit: small....cloth masks are apparently "facial decorations", Kn95s for them are in large part counterfeit and surgicals aren't properly fitted, they are at incredibly small risk, they seem to transmit less.  Cost: torturing at risk kids (deaf, toddlers, ADHD, autism), depression and mental illness scars, environmental, speech and learning delays, incidents with people thrown off flight and other confrontations, societal relationships.


Hand waving, with a time machine.

They recommended cloth masks on kids when schools reopened in August 2021.  Omicron showed up in December, 2021.

Your thought seems to be that health officials should have visited the future to learn about omicron, then returned to tell people about the “facial decoration” summary.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Hand waving, with a time machine.
> 
> They recommended cloth masks on kids when schools reopened in August 2021.  Omicron showed up in December, 2021.
> 
> Your thought seems to be that health officials should have visited the future to learn about omicron, then returned to tell people about the “facial decoration” summary.


As I said in the other post, you justify things with "the science changed"....got your number....the script is almost prewritten.  Some of us having been saying cloth masks were next to worthless from the beginning, then came the Spain mannequin study, then Bangladesh.  At this point you'll create any fiction to try to keep a hold of your worldview.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> You weren’t going to get any politician to give you a probability explanation for how vaccines slow transmission.  Politicians are trying to communicate with average people, and average people like to think in absolutes.  The mask works, or it doesn’t.  You trust your vaccine or you don’t.
> 
> Look at how many people here read “can still spread the virus, at some rate”, and conclude “the vaccine has no effect on transmission.   The first statement is true, but blurry.  The second is false, but absolute.  But people like the absolute, so most people here believe the second version, even though it is false.
> 
> Biden’s “Dead end to the virus” is false, but it is closer to the truth than the right wing’s repeated claim of equal transmission rates.


You and @Hüsker Dü are having a hard day...Fauci is the one who said vaccines were a dead end to the virus, so there goes your politician claim, unless you agree that Fauci is an actual politician and not a scientist...I would definitely agree with you there!!!!


----------



## soccersc

Grace T. said:


> I don't think at this point he's really trying to convince anyone.  The narrative is crumbling around him (he's been basically alone at it with the exceptions of the trolls and maybe sometimes NorCalDad) and he's doing his best to rationalize things to himself.  We know he's scared (wandering around in his N95 in the market despite being fully vaxxed....he basically came outright close to saying it a few weeks ago).  It would be the end of his world view were he (and others like him) to admit its all for naught, so the best they can come up with is "the science changed" whereas we all (even the Washington Post from the article I posted up above) know that what changed was the politics (and it's the same reason things aren't changing in the blue check cities).


You are correct @dad4 might be having some cognitive dissonance issues....we are here to help


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You love pulling numbers out of thin air.
> 
> 3% here
> 200k there
> 70-80% mask effectiveness there
> and so on.
> 
> And as the real world data around him has shown him to be wrong...doubles down on the initial pronouncements/theories.
> 
> Using the war analogy again...you would have been one of the first generals stripped of his position in WW2. We had lots of generals who read their textbooks, but when actual fighting began were unable to adapt to the realities on the ground. We burned through a lot of them before we found the right people.


My World War 2 hero isn’t a general.  It’s a gay mathematician named Alan Turing.

Be glad Turing read his textbooks.  His decryption work is the reason Eisenhower and Montgomery knew the German troop movements, often before the German troops themselves.  Turing‘s work saved million of lives and took years off the war.









						Alan Turing - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Awwww love you too.  Hugs.
> 
> p.s. I did....it's not my fault no one ever produced a mask study to show their effect after two plus years and the best we have is the Bangladesh study showing no statistical effect of cloth masks on adults.  It's funny too you seem to think C/B is suppose to give you a number at the end...it doesn't and a lot of it is a value judgement too.


C/B should give you some reasonable results.  Numbers are one good way to do it.  A simple list of factors is not good.

True story -- several years ago I served on a jury for a case where a truck driver was suing his former employer for interfering in his attempt to get another job.  The plaintiff brought in an expert who did a numerical analysis based on the facts developed in testimony and showed a  lost value of somewhere near $600,000 over 10 years.  Handwaving factors such as emotional distress and damage to reputation and the like were not included.  The defense brought in their own expert to show that the real damages were $0.

Soon after the trial, I attended a country club dinner for new members.  At our table were seated a young lawyer and his wife.  After listening to my story, he named both of the "experts".


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> C/B should give you some reasonable results.  Numbers are one good way to do it.  A simple list of factors is not good.
> 
> True story -- several years ago I served on a jury for a case where a truck driver was suing his former employer for interfering in his attempt to get another job.  The plaintiff brought in an expert who did a numerical analysis based on the facts developed in testimony and showed a  lost value of somewhere near $600,000 over 10 years.  Handwaving factors such as emotional distress and damage to reputation and the like were not included.  The defense brought in their own expert to show that the real damages were $0.
> 
> Soon after the trial, I attended a country club dinner for new members.  At our table were seated a young lawyer and his wife.  After listening to my story, he named both of the "experts".


1. you'd need an accurate masking study.  The best we have is Bangladesh which showed no statistical significance.  So your starting point on the analysis is zero or near zero.  You'd then need to know,  what the surgicals would do, given that they aren't fitted, as well as the counterfeit KN95s.  There is no data for that.
2. Ultimately you can't get a number because some of the factors don't have them (such as the cost of torturing an autistic child).
3. That's why they call those damages you referred to in the case "actual damages".  They aren't the only type of damage.  Whether you are entitled to other forms of damages depends on what's attached under law to the particular cause of action (whether in tort or in contract).


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> You weren’t going to get any politician to give you a probability explanation for how vaccines slow transmission.  Politicians are trying to communicate with average people, and average people like to think in absolutes.  The mask works, or it doesn’t.  You trust your vaccine or you don’t.
> 
> Look at how many people here read “can still spread the virus, at some rate”, and conclude “the vaccine has no effect on transmission.   The first statement is true, but blurry.  The second is false, but absolute.  But people like the absolute, so most people here believe the second version, even though it is false.
> 
> Biden’s “Dead end to the virus” is false, but it is closer to the truth than the right wing’s repeated claim of equal transmission rates.


Are you saying if you are vaccinated you have a small risk to spread the virus? I wonder if the AMA agrees with you.....

With *breakthrough infections, the viral loads are similar to those who are unvaccinated*.* That means such infections among fully immunized patients could be transmitted to others who are unvaccinated or have compromised immune systems.*

Just because hospitalizations and case counts are lower for vaccinated doesn't mean they don't spread the virus at the same rate, I thought we established that already 









						What doctors wish patients knew about breakthrough COVID infections
					

The rapid spread of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant has led to more fully vaccinated patients acquiring COVID-19. Learn why that happens and how boosters help.




					www.ama-assn.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> My World War 2 hero isn’t a general.  It’s a gay mathematician named Alan Turing.
> 
> Be glad Turing read his textbooks.  His decryption work is the reason Eisenhower and Montgomery knew the German troop movements, often before the German troops themselves.  Turing‘s work saved million of lives and took years off the war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan Turing - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Turing's work on developmental patterning is still relevant today.  The biology is still trying to catch up.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Yawn.  Covidian.


You being the one clawing and scratching soooo desperately to disprove what the majority of the world sees as proven and/or evolving science seem to me to be the poster child covidian maximus. 
This reminds me of those that immerse themselves in everything trump (although often claiming to wish to disavow themselves of him) that call out those that mention him as suffers of TDS when in reality they are the ones afflicted with an obsession that can’t be sated nor informed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The Covid Survival Rate I’ve always referred to is Cases V Deaths.
> 
> Understanding the “collateral damage” of WW2, but they weren’t actively involved in the battle.  If you’d like to further drill down categories of excess mortality of WW2 in order to include some of them, OK but we would have to agree on them,  not just lump them in.


So do we include people who died due lack of available hospital beds/physicians?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> With *breakthrough infections, the viral loads are similar to those who are unvaccinated*.


Depends on how you quantify loads.  Genome copy # via PCR does not correlate with infectivity.  Gotta look at the titer.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1.full.pdf


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> So do we include people who died due lack of available hospital beds/physicians?


spin me right round…lol…did the virus come from China? Where we at now is the question


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You being the one clawing and scratching soooo desperately to disprove what the majority of the world sees as proven and/or evolving science seem to me to be the poster child covidian maximus.
> This reminds me of those that immerse themselves in everything trump (although often claiming to wish to disavow themselves of him) that call out those that mention him as suffers of TDS when in reality they are the ones afflicted with an obsession that can’t be sated nor informed.


You don't even realize you just used proven and evolving science in the same sentence.   That's a real poor attempt at some first class gaslighting.  Again, espola does it better.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> My World War 2 hero isn’t a general.  It’s a gay mathematician named Alan Turing.
> 
> Be glad Turing read his textbooks.  His decryption work is the reason Eisenhower and Montgomery knew the German troop movements, often before the German troops themselves.  Turing‘s work saved million of lives and took years off the war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan Turing - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


On the other ocean, Commander Joe Rochefort, while heading an intelligence unit based in Hawaii charged with decrypting Japanese radio intercepts, told Admiral Nimitz when, where (Midway), and with a good estimate the size of the force with which the Japanese would next attack.  Nimitz went out and turned the tide of the war in the Pacificc.

Meanwhile, Admiral King, in charge of the Navy in Washington, believed a different story produced by OP-20-G, the big boys in Naval Intelligence.  The reality of the Midway operation was so embarrassing to King and his staff that Rochefort was assigned to command a floating dry dock in San Francisco for the rest of the war.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> His exact words were, that vaccinated people essentially become “dead ends” for the virus to spread.
> 
> So I must correct my statement.
> 
> touché


And what did lack of vax do for the virus?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> The right wing anti-vax movement gave us an extra 200K deaths during delta.  I see the cost.  What was the benefit?
> 
> You keep saying “cost benefit analysis“, so let’s do some.  What bad things would have happened if the red third of the country had gotten their covid shots before delta hit?


Prove it!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So Biden, CNN and MSNBC were also guilty of spreading misinformation?


Which do you prefer, misinformation siding with safety and health concerns or misinformation siding with increased infection, hospitalizations, possible long term effects and death? Oh wait, never mind.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> And what did lack of vax do for the virus?


About the same a a lack of communication that 10 to 20 min of exercise a day severely reduces the likelihood of severe Covid.
Inactive people were 226% more likely to contract sever Covid than those who exercised at least 150 min per week.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> So do we include people who died due lack of available hospital beds/physicians?


Yah…but adjust the short staffing for all those medical workers that were fired who worked 18 hr shifts during the height of the pandemic.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Awwww love you too.  Hugs.


I love seeing the love and hugs too   You rock Grace T.  You shine bright!


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Which do you prefer, misinformation siding with safety and health concerns or misinformation siding with increased infection, hospitalizations, possible long term effects and death? Oh wait, never mind.


a lot to unpack here

but essentially lying from government is good as long as it’s deemed siding with  safety and health concerns

quite a slippery slope here


----------



## baldref

Grace T. said:


> Public health has torn its reputation to shreds.  It's produced one garbage study after another acting as a propaganda arm.  It has failed to do risk assessment.  It has acted in a blatant political manner.  It's been repeatedly shown to be wrong.  Don't feel sorry for the disillusioned.  Be concerned with why public health did this and how it's ever going to fix this, particularly if in our lifetimes we need it again.  It's reputation is in the toilet...if we get another 10 years down the road (as you have articulated a fear of) what do you think is going to happen?


This is probably the most disappointing thing about the entire Covid experience to me. I now have zero confidence in the CDC, FDA, NIH, and HHS, and local health agencies.. They are political entities and not at all concernced about what is best for as what dad called us "average people". They have all failed miserably and the political and money based bias is blatantly clear to me. My opinion, and unlike others here, I'm not presenting my opinions as facts. I like to make up my own mind.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> You being the one clawing and scratching soooo desperately to disprove what the majority of the world sees as proven and/or evolving science seem to me to be the poster child covidian maximus.
> This reminds me of those that immerse themselves in everything trump (although often claiming to wish to disavow themselves of him) that call out those that mention him as suffers of TDS when in reality they are the ones afflicted with an obsession that can’t be sated nor informed.


It remains to be seen how many splinters the GOP will break into.


----------



## espola

baldref said:


> This is probably the most disappointing thing about the entire Covid experience to me. I now have zero confidence in the CDC, FDA, NIH, and HHS, and local health agencies.. They are political entities and not at all concernced about what is best for as what dad called us "average people". They have all failed miserably and the political and money based bias is blatantly clear to me. My opinion, and unlike others here, I'm not presenting my opinions as facts. I like to make up my own mind.


It's harder to convince someone they have been fooled than it is to fool them.  Mark Twain (but I might  just be fooling you about that)


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> My World War 2 hero isn’t a general.  It’s a gay mathematician named Alan Turing.
> 
> Be glad Turing read his textbooks.  His decryption work is the reason Eisenhower and Montgomery knew the German troop movements, often before the German troops themselves.  Turing‘s work saved million of lives and took years off the war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan Turing - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Did being gay make him a better mathematician? 

No. 

The point being we need to stop dividing people into groups. 

He was a brilliant mathematician. His color, sexual preference etc shouldnt make a difference.


----------



## crush

baldref said:


> This is probably the most disappointing thing about the entire Covid experience to me. I now have zero confidence in the CDC, FDA, NIH, and HHS, and local health agencies.. They are political entities and not at all concernced about what is best for as what dad called us "average people". They have all failed miserably and the political and money based bias is blatantly clear to me. My opinion, and unlike others here, I'm not presenting my opinions as facts. I like to make up my own mind.


My wife's two friends both lost their jobs for saying no to the jabs and forced boosters.  One of them worked for a Elementary school for 24 years and she got whacked.  Most teachers were so sad to say goodbye to her but afraid to lose their income, so they took the jabs and now many have fallen ill with Covid.  The other one got fired as a nurse for 25+ years.  All for just saying no to jab.  No jab, no college sports.  No jab, no pro.  No jab ___________.  We will need to forgive and have compassion on all those who cheated and lied and didn't care about the oppressed and the fatherless or the elderly.  Justice will be handled by the PROS.  We can;t judge.  After the TRUTH is SHOWN, we will ALL become one magnet of love and rebuild this great republic.  It's going to happen.  Now, this is sad news.  My wife and I didn;t know anyone who died from Covid before jabs were introduced. However, after the vax came out, we know two peoples personally who got triple jab and we know another kind soul down the street who died recently and then another person we really know who just died.  One of the deaths family admitted to it being related to the jabs and the other two are being hush hush and I respect that 100%.  I'm just super sad for the families to lose their loved ones and those who got fired for saying no to heart attacks, myocarditis and possible death.  All three died on a ventilator.  I can say 100% cutting meat out, eating organic and gluten free saved me big time from getting super sick.  I got it back in Jan 20, 2020.  My wife got Omicron and now were both feeling the best ever. 25 year celebration in October baldref.  Love you man


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> About the same a a lack of communication that 10 to 20 min of exercise a day severely reduces the likelihood of severe Covid.
> Inactive people were 226% more likely to contract sever Covid than those who exercised at least 150 min per week.


Go Jojo go!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You don't even realize you just used proven and evolving science in the same sentence.   That's a real poor attempt at some first class gaslighting.  Again, espola does it better.


Your comprehension issues are not my concern.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Go Jojo go!


If you can’t debunk it mock it!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

baldref said:


> This is probably the most disappointing thing about the entire Covid experience to me. I now have zero confidence in the CDC, FDA, NIH, and HHS, and local health agencies.. They are political entities and not at all concernced about what is best for as what dad called us "average people". They have all failed miserably and the political and money based bias is blatantly clear to me. My opinion, and unlike others here, I'm not presenting my opinions as facts. I like to make up my own mind.


So you were convinced to distrust the authorities by whom? Is that how you make up your own mind ya filthy hippy!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If you can’t debunk it mock it!


“226%”? Lol! Mock on!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> “226%”? Lol! Mock on!


So are you saying that I made that number up?  Not sure what your troll angle is on that one.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your comprehension issues are not my concern.


Now that’s funny, particularly coming from you of all the trolls. I see espola has been giving you comedy lessons…I approve…we can use two chuckles around here.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Now that’s funny, particularly coming from you of all the trolls. I see espola has been giving you comedy lessons…I approve…we can use two chuckles around here.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your comprehension issues are not my concern.


You still crying over that scar on your leg?


----------



## what-happened

baldref said:


> * I now have zero confidence in the CDC, FDA, NIH, and HHS, and local health agencies.. T*


They have no confidence in what they say on a day to day basis.  With that said, plenty of smart people who work within the walls.  Unfortunately the clowns run the institution.


----------



## thirteenknots

EVERYONE OF YOU NEEDS TO READ THIS BELOW!

_The most terrifying force of death comes from the hands of* Men who wanted to be left Alone.* They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love.
They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over.
The moment the Men who wanted to be left alone are forced to fight back, it is a form of suicide. They are literally killing off who they used to be. Which is why, when forced to take up violence,
these Men who wanted to be left alone, fight with unholy vengeance against those who murdered their former lives. They fight with raw hate, and a drive that cannot be fathomed by those who are merely
play-acting at politics and terror. TRUE TERROR will arrive at these people's door, and they will cry, scream, and beg for mercy... but it will fall upon the deaf ears of the Men who just wanted to be left alone."  _

 --Alexander Solzhenitsyn


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> NPI among vaccinated people.


Saw this just came out. It will probably not have the sort of NPI+vaxx flavor you are looking for.  But in terms of being current and somebody doing the leg work you may find this useful.  The cool kids nowadays call it a meta-analysis, but it basically aims to be comprehensive literature review. Shouldn't be a paywall.  









						Efficacy and practice of facemask use in general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Translational Psychiatry
					

In recent decades, respiratory infections, including SARS, HINI and the currently spreading COVID-19, caused by various viruses such as influenza and coronavirus have seriously threatened human health. It has generated inconsistent recommendations on the mandatory use of facemasks across...




					www.nature.com


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Saw this just came out. It will probably not have the sort of NPI+vaxx flavor you are looking for.  But in terms of being current and somebody doing the leg work you may find this useful.  The cool kids nowadays call it a meta-analysis, but it basically aims to be comprehensive literature review. Shouldn't be a paywall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Efficacy and practice of facemask use in general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Translational Psychiatry
> 
> 
> In recent decades, respiratory infections, including SARS, HINI and the currently spreading COVID-19, caused by various viruses such as influenza and coronavirus have seriously threatened human health. It has generated inconsistent recommendations on the mandatory use of facemasks across...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


A telling excerpt -- "The results of our study showed that more than 70% of respondents perceived efficacy of facemask use and 68% of respondents would wear facemasks, but less than half of the respondents had put into practice."   (People say they know the masks work, and they say they intend to use them, but they don't actually do it.)


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Did being gay make him a better mathematician?
> 
> No.
> 
> The point being we need to stop dividing people into groups.
> 
> He was a brilliant mathematician. His color, sexual preference etc shouldnt make a difference.


Normally, I agree with you.  

In Turing's case, I make an exception.  

Read the bio.  The government castrated him for being gay, which later led to his depression and suicide.  

Given what he suffered at the hands of his own government, I feel it is appropriate to include his sexual orientation when honoring him.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

*Put down that burger*​

The C.D.C. describes medium-rare hamburgers as “undercooked” and dangerous. The agency also directs Americans to avoid raw cookie dough and not to eat more than a teaspoon or so of salt every day. And the C.D.C. tells sexually active women of childbearing age not to drink alcohol unless they are on birth control.​

If you happen to be somebody who engages in any of these risky activities, I have some bad news for you this morning: You apparently do not believe in following the science.​


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Saw this just came out. It will probably not have the sort of NPI+vaxx flavor you are looking for.  But in terms of being current and somebody doing the leg work you may find this useful.  The cool kids nowadays call it a meta-analysis, but it basically aims to be comprehensive literature review. Shouldn't be a paywall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Efficacy and practice of facemask use in general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Translational Psychiatry
> 
> 
> In recent decades, respiratory infections, including SARS, HINI and the currently spreading COVID-19, caused by various viruses such as influenza and coronavirus have seriously threatened human health. It has generated inconsistent recommendations on the mandatory use of facemasks across...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


1. Metas are tricky because they depend on what inputs are chosen to be recognized as legitimate.  As such their conclusions are always suspect and subject to the biases of the reviewers
2. they can be useful as a review to know what’s out there so you can hunt and reach your own conclusions
3. The conclusions of this meta are instantly suspect given the authors.  The Chinese government is wedded to a policy of zero covid still and is increasingly panicked about the rest of the world dropping its restrictions. Everything at this point they put out should be viewed with skepticism.


----------



## baldref

espola said:


> It's harder to convince someone they have been fooled than it is to fool them.  Mark Twain (but I might  just be fooling you about that)


that's amazing. You've encapsulated incredible irony and hypocrisy in one sentence. Bravo.


----------



## Desert Hound

_The doctor who helped discover the Omicron COVID-19 variant claimed that s*he was pressured by several government officials not to reveal that it was a milder strain.*

Speaking to Germany’s Welt newspaper, Dr. Angelique Coetzee, who is currently the head of the South African Medical Association, said that during discussions with European officials, *she was told not to say that Omicron patients presented milder symptoms than prior COVID-19 variants.*

“I was told not to publicly state that it was a mild illness. I have been asked to refrain from making such statements *and to say that it is a serious illness.* I declined,” she told Welt in response to a question about her initial discussions about Omicron with European officials.









						Doctor Who Helped Discover Omicron Says She Was Pressured Not to Reveal It's Mild
					

The doctor who helped discover the Omicron COVID-19 variant claimed that she was pressured by several government officials ...




					www.theepochtimes.com
				



_


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> _The doctor who helped discover the Omicron COVID-19 variant claimed that s*he was pressured by several government officials not to reveal that it was a milder strain.*
> 
> Speaking to Germany’s Welt newspaper, Dr. Angelique Coetzee, who is currently the head of the South African Medical Association, said that during discussions with European officials, *she was told not to say that Omicron patients presented milder symptoms than prior COVID-19 variants.*
> 
> “I was told not to publicly state that it was a mild illness. I have been asked to refrain from making such statements *and to say that it is a serious illness.* I declined,” she told Welt in response to a question about her initial discussions about Omicron with European officials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doctor Who Helped Discover Omicron Says She Was Pressured Not to Reveal It's Mild
> 
> 
> The doctor who helped discover the Omicron COVID-19 variant claimed that she was pressured by several government officials ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theepochtimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Governing by the "You can't handle the truth" method. It never seems to go out of style. The "trust the experts" crowd loves it as much as they hate thinking critically.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Governing by the "You can't handle the truth" method. It never seems to go out of style. The "trust the experts" crowd loves it as much as they hate thinking critically.


Trusting the experts worked pretty well in this case.

You just need to remember that the expert is the researcher, not the government official.  

(Works for hurricane forecasts, too.  If the researcher says it will move north, and a politician says it will move west, trust the researcher.)


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Trusting the experts worked pretty well in this case.


Unless you were a child.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Governing by the "You can't handle the truth" method. It never seems to go out of style. The "trust the experts" crowd loves it as much as they hate thinking critically.


The TRUTH is going to be one big love magnet.  If you love the TRUTH, you will find true love brah   TGIF!!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Trusting the experts worked pretty well in this case.
> 
> You just need to remember that the expert is the researcher, not the government official.
> 
> (Works for hurricane forecasts, too.  If the researcher says it will move north, and a politician says it will move west, trust the researcher.)


Same experts that said everyone stay indoors but then blm protests were fine?

same that said no mask, then mask, then double mask then cloth masks are facial decorations?

same experts that deferred to the teachers unions on school closures?

same experts that greenlit lifting restrictions on crowded adult activities but still have kids masked?

same experts that denied the science of natural immunity?

same experts that were wrong every single time about exponential growth without end and seasonality?

Same experts that have us masking in restaurants to get to a table but you can take them off when you eat?

Same experts that called the lab leak theory misinformation?

same experts that bought into covid zero and vaccines would make transmission impossible?

yeah great track record. Sad reality is the so-called experts in charge of things are reallly bureaucrats. And they didn’t learn to keep their jobs by not doing politics and learning who their masters were.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Same experts that said everyone stay indoors but then blm protests were fine?
> 
> same that said no mask, then mask, then double mask then cloth masks are facial decorations?
> 
> same experts that deferred to the teachers unions on school closures?
> 
> same experts that greenlit lifting restrictions on crowded adult activities but still have kids masked?
> 
> same experts that denied the science of natural immunity?
> 
> same experts that were wrong every single time about exponential growth without end and seasonality?
> 
> Same experts that have us masking in restaurants to get to a table but you can take them off when you eat?
> 
> Same experts that called the lab leak theory misinformation?
> 
> same experts that bought into covid zero and vaccines would make transmission impossible?
> 
> yeah great track record. Sad reality is the so-called experts in charge of things are reallly bureaucrats. And they didn’t learn to keep their jobs by not doing politics and learning who their masters were.


That’s a LOT of whiny me me me crying!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Trusting the experts worked pretty well in this case.
> 
> You just need to remember that the expert is the researcher, not the government official.
> 
> (Works for hurricane forecasts, too.  If the researcher says it will move north, and a politician says it will move west, trust the researcher.)


Sharpie’s don’t count.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s a LOT of whiny me me me crying!


 Sounds like a lot of butt hurt coming from dad4 and his troll buddies. Ouch it must sting.


----------



## crush

No mask for the kids in Vegas.  Yay!!!!

T took it down.  Here is youtube version


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Trusting the experts worked pretty well in this case.
> 
> You just need to remember that the expert is the researcher, not the government official.
> 
> (Works for hurricane forecasts, too.  If the researcher says it will move north, and a politician says it will move west, trust the researcher.)


Take off your rose-colored glasses. There are no humans on earth that are immune to corruption due to power in their hands - experts or not. Without transparency, there is no hope of avoiding the abuse of power. BTW, many of those government officials you speak of come from the field. If that's who the "experts" in the field are willing to accept, they have earned their reputation as well.


----------



## Grace T.

The cherry on the ridiculousness of covid zero. Prince Charles has covid. He’s had it once already and is triple vaxxed. He tested positive a day after seeing the queen and 12 hours after attending a fancy party where he hugged a bunch of people.  Initial reports are he is barely symptomatic.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Take off your rose-colored glasses. There are no humans on earth that are immune to corruption due to power in their hands - experts or not. Without transparency, there is no hope of avoiding the abuse of power. BTW, many of those government officials you speak of come from the field. If that's who the "experts" in the field are willing to accept, they have earned their reputation as well.


Sure there are politics.  Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.  

But, what better option is there?  Politicians?  Pod cast hosts?  News anchors?  Pretend I understand everything all on my own?  None of those options looks at all viable as an information source.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Same experts that said everyone stay indoors but then blm protests were fine?
> 
> same that said no mask, then mask, then double mask then cloth masks are facial decorations?
> 
> same experts that deferred to the teachers unions on school closures?
> 
> same experts that greenlit lifting restrictions on crowded adult activities but still have kids masked?
> 
> same experts that denied the science of natural immunity?
> 
> same experts that were wrong every single time about exponential growth without end and seasonality?
> 
> Same experts that have us masking in restaurants to get to a table but you can take them off when you eat?
> 
> Same experts that called the lab leak theory misinformation?
> 
> same experts that bought into covid zero and vaccines would make transmission impossible?
> 
> yeah great track record. Sad reality is the so-called experts in charge of things are reallly bureaucrats. And they didn’t learn to keep their jobs by not doing politics and learning who their masters were.


For half of those, you’re blaming the scientists for a politician’s decision.   

I can guarantee that it wasn’t a NEJM article which proposed opening indoor dining by asking patrons to wear masks to and from the table.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Sure there are politics.  Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.
> 
> But, what better option is there?  Politicians?  Pod cast hosts?  News anchors?  Pretend I understand everything all on my own?  None of those options looks at all viable as an information source.


I actually agree with you on this one...you are right! There are no good options, that is why we are in the trouble we are in...there are a lot of people who have lost trust in all those people you have listed.  Since there is such conflicting views and research/numbers seem to always screw to the narrative, it becomes more important than ever for the government to allow people to make their own choices, another reason we are in this mess, they took away choice.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Sure there are politics.  Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.
> 
> But, what better option is there?  Politicians?  Pod cast hosts?  News anchors?  Pretend I understand everything all on my own?  None of those options looks at all viable as an information source.


where do you stand on accountability?  Giving misleading statements is the least of it.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.


Who, for example?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> For half of those, you’re blaming the scientists for a politician’s decision.
> 
> I can guarantee that it wasn’t a NEJM article which proposed opening indoor dining by asking patrons to wear masks to and from the table.


Nah...I'm blaming them for giving scientific veneer to the policies the politicians want to implement instead of standing up for reason and science (going so far as to actively lie to the population as Fauci admitted with masks and herd immunity thresholds), and in so doing, having destroyed the reputation of public health for a generation.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sure there are politics.  Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.
> 
> But, what better option is there?  Politicians?  Pod cast hosts?  News anchors?  Pretend I understand everything all on my own?  None of those options looks at all viable as an information source.


the viable option is to let it all hang out there, to engage in active debate instead of censorship, and to let people act like adults and make up their own decisions and bear their own consequences.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Who, for example?


This, for example:






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




Not a shining moment for science.    Other moments were better, but not that one.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Nah...I'm blaming them for giving scientific veneer to the policies the politicians want to implement instead of standing up for reason and science (going so far as to actively lie to the population as Fauci admitted with masks and herd immunity thresholds), and in so doing, having destroyed the reputation of public health for a generation.


Remember the timeline on indoor dining, and wearing masks while walking to the table.

Team virus spends months demanding their tiramisu.  Eventually, the politicians open up restaurants to make you happy.  When they do, you point out that it is stupid.

Yes, opening indoor dinging was stupid.  And wearing a mask to the table did not make it less stupid.  If you wanted a smart plan, you should have supported the vaccine requirements in summer 2021.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Which do you prefer, misinformation siding with safety and health concerns or misinformation siding with increased infection, hospitalizations, possible long term effects and death? Oh wait, never mind.


Neither is good, but in terms of what's happened in regards to Covid policy, the former has caused far more damage than the latter.  If you're Covid myopic, you prefer the fear mongering under the misguided notion of "better safe than sorry".  If you have any concept of cost benefit you'd understand that fear based, blanket covid policies have created far more collateral damage than any damage from covid, particularly to our children.

Call me a whiner for this opinion, but adults that think children should protect them are far bigger cowards.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Remember the timeline on indoor dining, and wearing masks while walking to the table.
> 
> Team virus spends months demanding their tiramisu.  Eventually, the politicians open up restaurants to make you happy.  When they do, you point out that it is stupid.
> 
> Yes, opening indoor dinging was stupid.  And wearing a mask to the table did not make it less stupid.  If you wanted a smart plan, you should have supported the vaccine requirements in summer 2021.


They should have stood up to the politicians and said allowed it's stupid.  That way, instead of this fabrication and security fiction, we can have an honest debate about the merits of indoor dining and restaurant survival v. virus containment.  Instead they acted as pawns for the politicians giving them a veneer for a policy which made no sense.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Sure there are politics.  Plenty of researchers were perfectly willing to make misleading statements about covid origins, possibly to protect their grant funding in the future.
> 
> But, what better option is there?  Politicians?  Pod cast hosts?  News anchors?  Pretend I understand everything all on my own?  None of those options looks at all viable as an information source.





Grace T. said:


> the viable option is to let it all hang out there, to engage in active debate instead of censorship, and to let people act like adults and make up their own decisions and bear their own consequences.


Grace states it concisely above.

I'll add to it that I believe censorship makes things worse. It keeps the drama going. It drives a bigger divide by promoting uncivil accusations to go back in forth. As the emotion on both sides rises, rationality decreases, and tribalism is reinforced. Simply state the case against a viewpoint and move on.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Unless you were a child.


Or had a business, or worked at a biz that was shut down, or had to drain savings, etc etc. And don't forget about 7+% inflation over the past year that affects everyone, but especially those on the lower economic scales. 

But yeah....Outside of that the experts nailed it and helped everyone.


----------



## soccersc

So when one person dies of covid and did not get the vaccine, main stream media, @Soccermaverick, @espola, and others are all over it. It made headlines in many LA and OC papers when an assistant district attorney died and was against mandates....but when someone dies like this unfortunate lady after she took the shot....all we hear is crickets....That is not right @dad4 that is what I am talking, no transparency and the government and many health officials have lost trust because of it.  If there is any risk in taking a vaccine then it should be up to each person to make that decision









						Autopsy confirms Kansas woman died from allergic reaction to COVID-19 vaccine
					

Nearly a year after her death, a Kansas woman’s autopsy report has confirmed she died from an allergic reaction to the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.




					www.live5news.com


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Neither is good, but in terms of what's happened in regards to Covid policy, the former has caused far more damage than the latter.  If you're Covid myopic, you prefer the fear mongering under the misguided notion of "better safe than sorry".  If you have any concept of cost benefit you'd understand that fear based, blanket covid policies have created far more collateral damage than any damage from covid, particularly to our children.
> 
> Call me a whiner for this opinion, but adults that think children should protect them are far bigger cowards.


Lying is good if we are trying to keep you safe and healthy

Same People: why has trust eroded in our government and health officials regarding Covid ?( must be Joe Rogan)


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> This, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a shining moment for science.    Other moments were better, but not that one.


That's old news.  Has there been some recently disclosed information of which I am not aware?


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> Lying is good if we are trying to keep you safe and healthy
> 
> Same People: why has trust eroded in our government and health officials regarding Covid ?( must be Joe Rogan)


The government and "experts" have screwed themselves for the next pandemic.

The "government that cried wolf"...turned out to be a coyote.


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> So when one person dies of covid and did not get the vaccine, main stream media, @Soccermaverick, @espola, and others are all over it. It made headlines in many LA and OC papers when an assistant district attorney died and was against mandates....but when someone dies like this unfortunate lady after she took the shot....all we hear is crickets....That is not right @dad4 that is what I am talking, no transparency and the government and many health officials have lost trust because of it.  If there is any risk in taking a vaccine then it should be up to each person to make that decision
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autopsy confirms Kansas woman died from allergic reaction to COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> Nearly a year after her death, a Kansas woman’s autopsy report has confirmed she died from an allergic reaction to the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.live5news.com


It's not really noteworthy when some unvaccinated person dies of covid -- happens every day.  What is noteworthy is when someone who has made a loudly public anti-vax statement dies.

As for the unfortunate Kansas woman -- the medical history given in that news article should have told her to stay away.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> the viable option is to let it all hang out there, to engage in active debate instead of censorship, and to let people act like adults and make up their own decisions and bear their own consequences.


And the Woke Cancel Culture needs to be reigned in. Because if they go after one, then they need to go after all and that won’t get us anywhere.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Neither is good, but in terms of what's happened in regards to Covid policy, the former has caused far more damage than the latter.  If you're Covid myopic, you prefer the fear mongering under the misguided notion of "better safe than sorry".  If you have any concept of cost benefit you'd understand that fear based, blanket covid policies have created far more collateral damage than any damage from covid, particularly to our children.
> 
> Call me a whiner for this opinion, but adults that think children should protect them are far bigger cowards.


There were plenty of voices saying that we should increase the mandates on adults and weaken them on kids.

As I recall, you never once supported the idea.  

It weakens the argument.  There is a huge difference between saying “let’s help the kids” and saying “no rules for anyone”.    

Most of this board has been saying “no rules for anyone”, and then looking for ways to pretend nothing is wrong.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There were plenty of voices saying that we should increase the mandates on adults and weaken them on kids.
> 
> As I recall, you never once supported the idea.
> 
> It weakens the argument.  There is a huge difference between saying “let’s help the kids” and saying “no rules for anyone”.
> 
> Most of this board has been saying “no rules for anyone”, and then looking for ways to pretend nothing is wrong.


Mischaracterizing again.  While not in favor of masks, I said whatever you want to do with adults is one thing, but f'ing with kids is straight up wrong. 

You can't take the high road here, you are still supporting masks for children only a few pages ago, saying something to the effect that teachers shouldn't have to work in front of 30 unmasked kids.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Or had a business, or worked at a biz that was shut down, or had to drain savings, etc etc. And don't forget about 7+% inflation over the past year that affects everyone, but especially those on the lower economic scales.
> 
> But yeah....Outside of that the experts nailed it and helped everyone.


As long as you’re supporting businesses, any thoughts on the factory workers who are out of work because anti-government radicals shut down the Ambassador Bridge?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Or had a business, or worked at a biz that was shut down, or had to drain savings, etc etc. And don't forget about 7+% inflation over the past year that affects everyone, but especially those on the lower economic scales.
> 
> But yeah....Outside of that the experts nailed it and helped everyone.


Yeah, as soon as I posted I realized I forgot to add anyone whose paycheck was affected. I'm wondering how many of the people that were responsible for the mandates, etc. actually had their paycheck reduced.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> There were plenty of voices saying that we should increase the mandates on adults and weaken them on kids.
> 
> As I recall, you never once supported the idea.
> 
> It weakens the argument.  There is a huge difference between saying “let’s help the kids” and saying “no rules for anyone”.
> 
> Most of this board has been saying “no rules for anyone”, and then looking for ways to pretend nothing is wrong.


There is a difference with "no rules for anyone" and understanding when the rules need to be lifted.  We have a much better understanding of the virus now than we did at the beginning but in our State still thinks we are still in a State of Emergency...but wait, we are inviting people to the biggest sporting event in America to our state this weekend. You don't find that kinda odd?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> As long as you’re supporting businesses, any thoughts on the factory workers who are out of work because anti-government radicals shut down the Ambassador Bridge?


This is a typical response to governmental authoritarianism. No one should be surprised at this point.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Or had a business, or worked at a biz that was shut down, or had to drain savings, etc etc. And don't forget about 7+% inflation over the past year that affects everyone, but especially those on the lower economic scales.
> 
> But yeah....Outside of that the experts nailed it and helped everyone.


Or the mental health issues, the missed cancer treatments and screenings, the postponed surgeries, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When they do, you point out that it is stupid.


We point out the nonsensical rules. Mask to walk in, none to eat. Pointless. It is theater nothing more. 

And the part you forget time and time again is nobody can afford to shut down for extended periods of time. Biz has to be open. 

That is the reality.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> As long as you’re supporting businesses, any thoughts on the factory workers who are out of work because anti-government radicals shut down the Ambassador Bridge?


They are not anti gov radicals. 

They want pointless restrictions removed. 

The press characterizes them as ant vaxx. They are anti mandate. They as a group have a vax rate of 90%. Canada overall is around 78%.

The gov there and here and elsewhere has acted in rather authoritarian ways. They want those restrictions gone. 

They are not anti gov radicals.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Or the mental health issues, the missed cancer treatments and screenings, the postponed surgeries, etc.


The delays in medical procedures were caused by the need to care for all the covid patients.

That’s an argument for more covid containment measures, not less.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> They are not anti gov radicals.
> 
> They want pointless restrictions removed.
> 
> The press characterizes them as ant vaxx. They are anti mandate. They as a group have a vax rate of 90%. Canada overall is around 78%.
> 
> The gov there and here and elsewhere has acted in rather authoritarian ways. They want those restrictions gone.
> 
> They are not anti gov radicals.


If you say so.   And I’m sure you also think that the blm activists who closed down the Port of Oakland aren’t anti-government radicals.  They just want an end to the pointless persecution of young men in their communities.

Look, if right wing people of strong opinion have a right to shut down public infrastructure, then left wing people of strong opinion also have the right to shut down public infrastructure.  That path gives you France and 30 tons of turnips on the expressway.

No thanks.  I prefer civility.


----------



## Desert Hound

Here is another example (thousands of them ...the press with various standards) of how the press frames things differently based on the R or D after the name. Below...just 2 weeks apart.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> As long as you’re supporting businesses, any thoughts on the factory workers who are out of work because anti-government radicals shut down the Ambassador Bridge?


“Anti-Government”?  Is that how those who are Anti Mandate are now being labeled?

Why are they protesting again?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The delays in medical procedures were caused by the need to care for all the covid patients.
> 
> That’s an argument for more covid containment measures, not less.


Incorrect.  It was for the anticipation of the need to care for Covid patients which was greatly exaggerated.  Particularly at the beginning of the pandemic.  Hospitals being overwhelmed was isolated and when occurred only happened briefly.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> “Anti-Government”?  Is that how those who are Anti Mandate are now being labeled?
> 
> Why are they protesting again?


Momentum.  They fear that if they back down now they will look like pussies.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> “Anti-Government”?  Is that how those who are Anti Mandate are now being labeled?
> 
> Why are they protesting again?


I don’t care why they are protesting.  Throw them in a cell with the people who took over Capitol Hill and let them talk it out.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you say so.   And I’m sure you also think that the blm activists who closed down the Port of Oakland aren’t anti-government radicals.  They just want an end to the pointless persecution of young men in their communities.
> 
> Look, if right wing people of strong opinion have a right to shut down public infrastructure, then left wing people of strong opinion also have the right to shut down public infrastructure.  That path gives you France and 30 tons of turnips on the expressway.
> 
> No thanks.  I prefer civility.


Unfortunately, that bridge (ha ha) has been crossed when they didn't do anything about the Port of Oakland, or any of the other shenanigans of the last 2 years.  Once those norms have been shattered, it is awfully hard to rebuild them....you can't put the genie back into the bottle.


----------



## Grace T.

If Biden admin is right, COVID about to be pushed off the headlines.  Biden admin telling all US citizens to get out of Ukraine ASAP.  Looks like war.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492203576260759561


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Unfortunately, that bridge (ha ha) has been crossed when they didn't do anything about the Port of Oakland, or any of the other shenanigans of the last 2 years.  Once those norms have been shattered, it is awfully hard to rebuild them....you can't put the genie back into the bottle.


That is a very weak excuse.  Social norms didn’t end forever in the Watts riots.  They came back, because good people decided to rebuild them.

You get to choose for yourself.  Do you want to help build civil society, or help tear it down?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I don’t care why they are protesting.  Throw them in a cell with the people who took over Capitol Hill and let them talk it out.


Next to all the Antifa members and BLM protesters?  your hypocrisy runs DEEEEEP!

Capitol Hill?  Maybe they can find Ray Epps and ask him a few questions s about why he is on video pressing people to storm the Capitol.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> If you say so.   And I’m sure you also think that the blm activists who closed down the Port of Oakland aren’t anti-government radicals.  They just want an end to the pointless persecution of young men in their communities.
> 
> Look, if right wing people of strong opinion have a right to shut down public infrastructure, then left wing people of strong opinion also have the right to shut down public infrastructure.  That path gives you France and 30 tons of turnips on the expressway.
> 
> No thanks.  I prefer civility.


and now you see the slippery slope that was created by the BLM riots

you have hypocrisy on both sides right now


----------



## Brav520

I did see a Harvard Grad and CNN contributor suggest they slash the tires and empty out the fuel

that sounds like a brilliant idea


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> That is a very weak excuse.  Social norms didn’t end forever in the Watts riots.  They came back, because good people decided to rebuild them.
> 
> You get to choose for yourself.  Do you want to help build civil society, or help tear it down?


I guess that depends on who’s vision of Civil Society we are talking about.   For example,  I’m not as much of a fanboy of Authoritarianism as you are.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That is a very weak excuse.  Social norms didn’t end forever in the Watts riots.  They came back, because good people decided to rebuild them.
> 
> You get to choose for yourself.  Do you want to help build civil society, or help tear it down?


It's not an excuse....it's a reality.  After the Watts riots there was a reckoning and discussion both within the community and in society in general.  There was no such discussion after what happened over the last 2 years.  There was no mea culpa.  If anything, there is an even more firm resolve that they were justified.  

In the long run, it's a prisoner's dilemma.  You can't expect unilateral disarmament from the rest of society and the norms get put back in place only if there is the side that initially violated the norms is willing to reform.  

I agree it's not ideal.  It's unfortunately the reality we are in now.  And as I mentioned before, it's going to get worse.  Both sides are intent on tearing down every remaining norm, whether the ERA constitutional amendment, the means of protesting, ruling by decrees, out right lying and propaganda, or destroying the fillibuster.  If the ends justify the means, and everyone believes they are right, that's where you get to.  As I said, things are going to get a lot worse from here.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Next to all the Antifa members and BLM protesters?  your hypocrisy runs DEEEEEP!
> 
> Capitol Hill?  Maybe they can find Ray Epps and ask him a few questions s about why he is on video pressing people to storm the Capitol.











						PolitiFact - How new Jan. 6 revelations on Ray Epps, others undercut Tucker Carlson’s FBI conspiracy theory
					

The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol dealt a fact-based blow to efforts to reb




					www.politifact.com


----------



## Brav520

If that is true then release the Ray Epps interview transcripts


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If you say so.   And I’m sure you also think that the blm activists who closed down the Port of Oakland aren’t anti-government radicals.  They just want an end to the pointless persecution of young men in their communities.
> 
> Look, if right wing people of strong opinion have a right to shut down public infrastructure, then left wing people of strong opinion also have the right to shut down public infrastructure.  That path gives you France and 30 tons of turnips on the expressway.
> 
> No thanks.  I prefer civility.


Authoritarianism and civility? I wonder how that is going to work out?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Did you share this yesterday, @dad4? It was announced that the 11 SF Bay Area counties will end their indoor mask mandates - except for SC County where they will still require masks indoors for all unvaccinated people ages 2 and up.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> If that is true then release the Ray Epps interview transcripts


You have me at an informational disadvantage since I don't read the same newsy sites you do.  What do you suppose is in there?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Unfortunately, that bridge (ha ha) has been crossed when they didn't do anything about the Port of Oakland, or any of the other shenanigans of the last 2 years.  Once those norms have been shattered, it is awfully hard to rebuild them....you can't put the genie back into the bottle.


Which one-day Port of Oakland shutdown are we talking about there?  2001?  2003? 2011?  2015?  2020?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Sounds like a lot of butt hurt coming from dad4 and his troll buddies. Ouch it must sting.


“Mirror, mirror on the wall . . .”


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Mirror, mirror on the wall . . .”


We're not the ones who were wrong about nearly everything.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We're not the ones who were wrong about nearly everything.


Nearly everything?

Please continue.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> The delays in medical procedures were caused by the need to care for all the covid patients.
> 
> That’s an argument for more covid containment measures, not less.


your comment is Circa summer 2020.  Hospitals systems, clinics, offices, networks have figured out how to walk and chew gum.   Unfortunately hospital systems and networks can do their own thing.  AZ, TX, FL, WA, and others have been able to do both for some time.  Not in an unfettered manner, but screenings/treatment have continued. 

You need to update your information or maybe adjust your info stream.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Mischaracterizing again.  While not in favor of masks, I said whatever you want to do with adults is one thing, but f'ing with kids is straight up wrong.
> 
> You can't take the high road here, you are still supporting masks for children only a few pages ago, saying something to the effect that teachers shouldn't have to work in front of 30 unmasked kids.


Kids are living Petri dishes, germ factories, bacteria hosts, why should they be exempt?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Nearly everything?
> 
> Please continue.


Oh you know better.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Authoritarianism and civility? I wonder how that is going to work out?


Suppose I dump 30 tons of turnips on the 405, and unfurl a banner that says “Mandate Vaccinations Now!!!!”

Is this a peaceful protest and within my rights?  Of course not.  If I did that, I’d be a self centered asshat who thinks he has a right to delay dinner for a million other people.

The trucker convoy and blm rioters?   Self centered asshats.  Asshats with a cause, but asshats.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kids are living Petri dishes, germ factories, bacteria hosts, why should they be exempt?


Some of the psychological profiles of trolls show that they do it because they think it's funny.

This coming from you, and this site, is pretty fun.         

You are getting better at the comedy.  Espola has a rival now.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Oh you know better.


I haven't been keeping a scorecard, so you will have to fill in the details.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Which one-day Port of Oakland shutdown are we talking about there?  2001?  2003? 2011?  2015?  2020?


Why would I exempt any of them?

Not sure you want to use the “only one day” excuse.  Summer 2020 had plenty of leftist riots which lasted longer than a day.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Why would I exempt any of them?
> 
> Not sure you want to use the “only one day” excuse.  Summer 2020 had plenty of leftist riots which lasted longer than a day.


If I were an anti-union cynic, I would theorize that the Teamsters shut down the port any time they want a 3-day weekend.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The delays in medical procedures were caused by the need to care for all the covid patients.
> 
> That’s an argument for more covid containment measures, not less.


Funny how your argument always goes towards more restrictions despite them not working. 

Also in most places the hospitals were not overwhelmed. Politicians however forced them to delay treatments...which is another reason to get rid of the fools in charge and their failed policies.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how your argument always goes towards more restrictions despite them not working.
> 
> Also in most places the hospitals were not overwhelmed. Politicians however forced them to delay treatments...which is another reason to get rid of the fools in charge and their failed policies.


Politicians forced them to delay treatments?  How did that work?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I haven't been keeping a scorecard, so you will have to fill in the details.


Yawn....Husker is doing it better than you right now.  You're off your game.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> You have me at an informational disadvantage since I don't read the same newsy sites you do.  What do you suppose is in there?


maybe nothing , but not sure I’m just going blindly take this committee at face value

also, Kinzinger came out early Jan and said they interviewed Epps in November , then shortly after that they said they were going interview him on 1/21

so what was the November interview with Epps?

I also feel like if this committee is so vital to our democracy, televise it all , everything


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> PolitiFact - How new Jan. 6 revelations on Ray Epps, others undercut Tucker Carlson’s FBI conspiracy theory
> 
> 
> The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol dealt a fact-based blow to efforts to reb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com


The problem with politifact and most of the press is they are incurious. 


Epps said he didn't have ties to the FBI. The press, the committee, etc have not done investigation to confirm that. They are simply taking his word for it. And the press reports it as theory debunked. 

So we really don't know if he is or isn't tied to the FBI. 

Imagine a trial where someone is on trial for murder. And politifact or the press says theory debunked...and their proof is the guy being investigated or interviewed simply said he didn't do it.

Is that the standard? It is farcical.

I am not making a claim he is or isn't. 

But going by the word of the guy without actually investigating any ties means we still don't know. Nothing has been debunked.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> If you say so.   And I’m sure you also think that the blm activists who closed down the Port of Oakland aren’t anti-government radicals.  They just want an end to the pointless persecution of young men in their communities.
> 
> Look, if right wing people of strong opinion have a right to shut down public infrastructure, then left wing people of strong opinion also have the right to shut down public infrastructure.  That path gives you France and 30 tons of turnips on the expressway.
> 
> No thanks.  I prefer civility.


BLM riots were burning biz, attacking cops, etc. 

The people in Canada...not doing any of that. 

I don't like BLM because all lives matter. However if they had protested without attacking cops, looting stores, burning buildings, I would not have had any real issue with them. 

The Canadian protestors? Rather civil.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kids are living Petri dishes, germ factories, bacteria hosts, why should they be exempt?


Not my kids, they are perfect! 

I'm just going to let your post speak for itself.


----------



## Brav520

Ted Cruz 1/11 at Senate Judiciary hearing -Was Ray Epps a Fed 

Senior FBI official- Sir I cannot answer that question


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> If Biden admin is right, COVID about to be pushed off the headlines.  Biden admin telling all US citizens to get out of Ukraine ASAP.  Looks like war.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492203576260759561


And....









						Biden Administration Begins Grueling, Months-Long Process Of Abandoning Americans In Ukraine
					

WASHINGTON, D.C.—The Biden administration announced it has begun what is sure to be a lengthy, arduous process of stranding hundreds of Americans in a war zone.




					babylonbee.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Brav520 said:


> If that is true then release the Ray Epps interview transcripts


Also arrange that he was Suspect 16, then removed without explanation.


----------



## Brav520

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Also arrange that he was Suspect 16, then removed without explanation.


this Question along with how have we not found the  people who left the bombs at the DNC and RNC on 1/5  are just crazy conspiracies


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yawn....Husker is doing it better than you right now.  You're off your game.


And you are getting better at squirming away from details.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Also arrange that he was Suspect 16, then removed without explanation.


Arrange?


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> maybe nothing , but not sure I’m just going blindly take this committee at face value
> 
> also, Kinzinger came out early Jan and said they interviewed Epps in November , then shortly after that they said they were going interview him on 1/21
> 
> so what was the November interview with Epps?
> 
> I also feel like if this committee is so vital to our democracy, televise it all , everything


I expect the big hitters to be hauled before the cameras so they deny all in public.  I look forward to some of those showing us how they are good Americans because they paid their tax (except t, of course).


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> BLM riots were burning biz, attacking cops, etc.
> 
> The people in Canada...not doing any of that.
> 
> I don't like BLM because all lives matter. However if they had protested without attacking cops, looting stores, burning buildings, I would not have had any real issue with them.
> 
> The Canadian protestors? Rather civil.


If a trucker parks at the end of your driveway and blows the horn all night, how long before you call the cops?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> If Biden admin is right, COVID about to be pushed off the headlines.  Biden admin telling all US citizens to get out of Ukraine ASAP.  Looks like war.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492203576260759561


They will hit when we are most distracted, something like overtime in the Super Bowl.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> And you are getting better at squirming away from details.


Nah, just you!  You've begun to bore me and I have a shinny new toy to play with that's getting better at it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Nah, just you!  You've begun to bore me and I have a shinny new toy to play with that's getting better at it.


You aren’t going to become a stalker like lying eyes are you? I have seen a trail tears from butt-hurt stalkers who became obsessed after some perceived slight or dig that hit too close. You may have seen some I ignore attempting to defend their honor.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> You aren’t going to become a stalker like lying eyes are you? I have seen a trail tears from butt-hurt stalkers who became obsessed after some perceived slight or dig that hit too close. You may have seen some I ignore attempting to defend their honor.


I've been wondering which pity party is behind 13k.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> You aren’t going to become a stalker like lying eyes are you? I have seen a trail tears from butt-hurt stalkers who became obsessed after some perceived slight or dig that hit too close. You may have seen some I ignore attempting to defend their honor.


Someone has quite a high opinion of themselves…..


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Someone has quite a high opinion of themselves…..


Grace?


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> If Biden admin is right, COVID about to be pushed off the headlines.  Biden admin telling all US citizens to get out of Ukraine ASAP.  Looks like war.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492203576260759561


I thought the general narrative was that Putin would wait until the Olympics are done so as not to embarrass China, so that would mean the 20th.

It's hard to know what he will do, but attitudes seem to be hardening in Europe if the polls reported in the Guardian are to be believed (linked below), which is probably not what Putin would want.

From what I've read the Russian people don't want this either - although obviously Putin will do what he wants. That  said, Chechnya was a quagmire for Russia, and the Ukraine is about 35 times as large with 30 times as many people.

So he could invade, but he can't occupy the Ukraine (basically the size of Texas, with 41M people) with 150K troops.

Also meant to add, the Ukraine's army is certainly stronger now also and better equipped. They are no match for Russia, but they will be no walkover either. As that great philosopher of our age says, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face".

Most Europeans want to stand with Kyiv against Moscow, poll suggests | Ukraine | The Guardian


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Grace?


That's a given.  You and Husker, not so much.  You are after all in the chuckles competition for 2nd place.  After this latest by Husker, I'd put espola slightly in the lead.  It's a Husker face plant if I ever saw one (after an early promising start).



Hüsker Dü said:


> You aren’t going to become a stalker like lying eyes are you? I have seen a trail tears from butt-hurt stalkers who became obsessed after some perceived slight or dig that hit too close. You may have seen some I ignore attempting to defend their honor.


But even if they aren't all gems, he is getting better at it by taking a page from the espola book.

All trolling is essentially a perverted form of comedy.  The highest honor goes to he that does it better.  Will espola be unseated from the queen's throne????


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> That's a given.  You and Husker, not so much.  You are after all in the chuckles competition for 2nd place.  After this latest by Husker, I'd put espola slightly in the lead.  It's a Husker face plant if I ever saw one (after an early promising start).
> 
> 
> 
> But even if they aren't all gems, he is getting better at it by taking a page from the espola book.
> 
> All trolling is essentially a perverted form of comedy.  The highest honor goes to he that does it better.  Will espola be unseated from the queen's throne????


Yep, another stalker.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yep, another stalker.


Yawn...I don't initiate our exchanges.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Yawn...I don't initiate our exchanges.


Good, I don’t need another admirer. Lol!


----------



## Grace T.

Under five vaccine postponed.  The way it's been handled doesn't exactly inspire back confidence in the FDA, even if they came to a reasoned conclusion.....









						Pfizer postpones FDA request for Covid vaccine for kids under 5
					

The company said it believes three doses "may provide a higher level of protection in this age group."




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Under five vaccine postponed.  The way it's been handled doesn't exactly inspire back confidence in the FDA, even if they came to a reasoned conclusion.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer postpones FDA request for Covid vaccine for kids under 5
> 
> 
> The company said it believes three doses "may provide a higher level of protection in this age group."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Company says it may provide higher level of protection. 

Interesting. Kids have no risk already.


----------



## Grace T.

Potential vaccine mandate in California....









						California considers law to require all workers to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19
					

Democratic legislation would require employees and independent contractors to show proof of full vaccination against COVID-19 unless the employee obtains an exemption for a medical reason, disability or “sincerely held religious belief.”




					justthenews.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Potential vaccine mandate in California....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California considers law to require all workers to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Democratic legislation would require employees and independent contractors to show proof of full vaccination against COVID-19 unless the employee obtains an exemption for a medical reason, disability or “sincerely held religious belief.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justthenews.com


No real shock that an Oakland progressive supports a workplace vaccine mandate.  This will be popular in her district.

The interesting part is the business support.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> The interesting part is the business support.


Just curious, what makes that interesting?

Most that run businesses are anti-lockdown (certain industries excepted), but pro vaccination in the workplace.  They may be anti-mandate in terms of liability, but certainly prefer a safe and stable workforce.  So if the municipality wants to reduce the liability factor, why wouldn’t there be support?


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> No real shock that an Oakland progressive supports a workplace vaccine mandate.  This will be popular in her district.
> 
> The interesting part is the business support.


The interesting part will be the LIABILITY lawsuits and criminal trials!


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Just curious, what makes that interesting?
> 
> Most that run businesses are anti-lockdown (certain industries excepted), but pro vaccination in the workplace.  They may be anti-mandate in terms of liability, but certainly prefer a safe and stable workforce.  So if the municipality wants to reduce the liability factor, why wouldn’t there be support?


Interesting because the business support is what gives it a chance of becoming law.  State law, not just municipal.

Agree that it is not a surprise, as you explained.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> No real shock that an Oakland progressive supports a workplace vaccine mandate.  This will be popular in her district.
> 
> The interesting part is the business support.


Maybe she should run on a "More shots, fewer shootings" platform for re-election.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Looks like kids in this neck of the woods are tired of masks. There's no truth to the rumor that Newsome trolled the thread with, "Been doing that for over a year." and posted his French Laundry pics.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491996868829614081


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Looks like kids in this neck of the woods are tired of masks. There's no truth to the rumor that Newsome trolled the thread with, "Been doing that for over a year." and posted his French Laundry pics.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491996868829614081


Has to be staged, remember "kids don't mind masks" and according to NY governor it's no different than putting on shoes.  I mean if Kamala can use child actors...turn about is fair play.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


>


Great vocalist and song.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> The interesting part will be the LIABILITY lawsuits and criminal trials!


The Bay is building a new court house that should be ready by 2023.  Place is packed.  United is running non stop flights everyday.  We need to show forgiveness and compassion.  Forgive thy self first with no judgement, show yourself all the compassion and mulligans you need.  After that, go and love everyone.  We will become one magnet of love!  Now is not the time to seek revenge through fear.  Revenge with love is the only way.  Justice is coming for those who cheated and lied and are now trying to run from the TRUTH.  The TRUTH is here!.  Stay peaceful folks.


----------



## crush

*Fox News: Lawyers for the Clinton campaign paid a technology company to "infiltrate" servers belonging to Trump Tower, and later the White House, in order to establish an "inference" and "narrative" to bring to government agencies linking Donald Trump to Russia, a filing from Special Counsel John Durham says.*


----------



## crush

*Who is Kash?*


----------



## Grace T.

Guess they weren't able to enforce the mask mandate at the superbowl despite handing out the free KN95 masks.  Horrible optics of elite politicians (including the mayor), actors, and sports figures without masks while kids have to go to school masked the next day.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Guess they weren't able to enforce the mask mandate at the superbowl despite handing out the free KN95 masks.  Horrible optics of elite politicians (including the mayor), actors, and sports figures without masks while kids have to go to school masked the next day.


today’s funny…..


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Guess they weren't able to enforce the mask mandate at the superbowl despite handing out the free KN95 masks.  Horrible optics of elite politicians (including the mayor), actors, and sports figures without masks while kids have to go to school masked the next day.


It’s unfortunate.  Xi and Putin argue that many people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so, and Team Virus is determined to prove them correct.  

We know Americans are dying of covid.  We know masks work.  We know vaccines work.  But, somehow, many adults in this country won’t do either.

Even Canada managed better than we did.  About a third as many deaths per capita as US.  I guess they must be an autocracy like Japan or Taiwan.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s unfortunate.  Xi and Putin argue that many people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so, and Team Virus is determined to prove them correct.
> 
> We know Americans are dying of covid.  We know masks work.  We know vaccines work.  But, somehow, many adults in this country won’t do either.
> 
> Even Canada managed better than we did.  About a third as many deaths per capita as US.  I guess they must be an autocracy like Japan or Taiwan.


Do Sweden now.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s unfortunate.  Xi and Putin argue that many people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so, and Team Virus is determined to prove them correct.
> 
> We know Americans are dying of covid.  We know masks work.  We know vaccines work.  But, somehow, many adults in this country won’t do either.
> 
> Even Canada managed better than we did.  About a third as many deaths per capita as US.  I guess they must be an autocracy like Japan or Taiwan.


p.s. Russia has been one of the worst in both masking and vaccine uptick.  My son follows "Bald and Bankrupt" religiously on youtube.  Not a Russian mask to be seen.

Supposedly attendees at the superbowl were vaxxed or tested.  Reports of checks though were spotty at best.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Do Sweden now.


73% vaccination rate in Sweden.  Not great, but better than USA, with 65%.  And far better than places like Mississippi, with a 50% vaccination rate.

Not surprisingly, they also have fewer deaths per capita.  1.62 deaths per thousand.  USA is at 2.76.  Mississippi is at 3.88

Sweden’s “trust the people” policy is paired with people trying to do the right thing.  It isn’t some anti-vax, anti-mask utopia.  They actually got their shots.

I’d do the same for masking and dinner parties, but I don’t know how to gather accurate data on those.  Self reported numbers cannot be compared between cultures.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> 73% vaccination rate in Sweden.  Not great, but better than USA, with 65%.  And far better than places like Mississippi, with a 50% vaccination rate.
> 
> Not surprisingly, they also have fewer deaths per capita.  1.62 deaths per thousand.  USA is at 2.76.  Mississippi is at 3.88
> 
> Sweden’s “trust the people” policy is paired with people trying to do the right thing.  It isn’t some anti-vax, anti-mask utopia.  They actually got their shots.
> 
> I’d do the same for masking and dinner parties, but I don’t know how to gather accurate data on those.  Self reported numbers cannot be compared between cultures.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> 73% vaccination rate in Sweden.  Not great, but better than USA, with 65%.  And far better than places like Mississippi, with a 50% vaccination rate.
> 
> Not surprisingly, they also have fewer deaths per capita.  1.62 deaths per thousand.  USA is at 2.76.  Mississippi is at 3.88
> 
> Sweden’s “trust the people” policy is paired with people trying to do the right thing.  It isn’t some anti-vax, anti-mask utopia.  They actually got their shots.
> 
> I’d do the same for masking and dinner parties, but I don’t know how to gather accurate data on those.  Self reported numbers cannot be compared between cultures.


You do realize that you conflate variables like masking and vaccination?  The Superbowl had nothing to do with vaccination....though enforcement was reportedly lax to be there you had to be vaxxed or tested....the issue was the masks.  Neither is the issue with Sweden the masks....the issue there is the vaccination.

And we always come back to why do you care?  People who are at risk and not vaccinated will deal with the consequences.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It’s unfortunate.  Xi and Putin argue that many people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so, and Team Virus is determined to prove them correct.
> 
> We know Americans are dying of covid.  We know masks work.  We know vaccines work.  But, somehow, many adults in this country won’t do either.
> 
> Even Canada managed better than we did.  About a third as many deaths per capita as US.  I guess they must be an autocracy like Japan or Taiwan.


Hahaha! Still using masks and vaccines in the same breath. Let me remind you that Wilt Chamberlain and my dad combined to score 100 points in a game on 3/2/1962.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *People who are at risk and not vaccinated will deal with the consequences.*


Two years and counting.  The vax too will have to deal with consequences.  My pal sister just died and that is no joke and she was triple vaxxed.  I think all ((jab or no jab)) of us are dealing with the consequences of the actions of a few cheaters who got caught and were up to no good.  Now that the hold up is up, they will go back to doing what they do best; divide and conquer and divide and war and destroy and evil.  We have much more news that will be dripping out so sit back, buckle your seat belt and get ready for a hard landing.  Compassion and Grace ((no fun intended)) will be of most importance for anyone to stay on this planet after the real TRUTH comes.  Love is a magnet and only love will rule this place.  Vengeance is not the way to go but unfortunately, many will fall for that fear.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> "...but still rare"


*NO !

STOP IT NOW !

YOU ARE PUSHING DISINFORMATION THAT WILL FURTHER 
HARM/KILL HUMANS OF ALL AGES!*

The Bradford-Hill criteria and evidence of association between influenza vaccination and ischaemic heart disease - PubMed (nih.gov)

Using the Bradford-Hill criteria to assess causality in the association between CHADOX1 NCOV-19 vaccine and thrombotic immune thrombocytopenia – DOAJ 

The Bradford-Hill criteria and evidence of association between influenza vaccination and ischaemic heart disease | Heart (bmj.com) 

ACSH Explains 'Hill's Criteria': Determining Causality from Correlation | American Council on Science and Health 

Applying the Bradford Hill criteria in the 21st century: how data integration has changed causal inference in molecular epidemiology (nih.gov)


----------



## thirteenknots

Multi Sport said:


> Coocoo...
> 
> Continue with your bathroom fetish. What was it again? Something about dropping trouser or using your fly.
> 
> You're a sick guy....


This individual known as " Espola " on this forum has a sordid past.
He knows it.
Many on here know it.
Many here choose to ignore it.
The TRUTH is always there, it cannot be made it go away.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It’s unfortunate.  Xi and Putin argue that many people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so, and Team Virus is determined to prove them correct.


Is it significant to you that the two leaders that share your "people are incapable of doing the right thing unless forced to do so" are Xi and Putin? It is to me.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Guess they weren't able to enforce the mask mandate at the superbowl despite handing out the free KN95 masks.  Horrible optics of elite politicians (including the mayor), actors, and sports figures without masks while kids have to go to school masked the next day.


Pfft.  That ship sailed a long time ago.  The politicians never had faith in their own policies and were just doing it as window dressing.  Blanket policies were never feasible, except in the PretendLand that some people are living in.  Other than maybe the initial months of the pandemic, it was never about "community spread" or "doing the right thing", it was always about political control through fear (aka using cult type techniques).  I'll say it again, only cowards would mask children, regardless of their rationalizations for doing so.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *Only cowards would mask children!*


Go deeper bro.  You're getting warmer and I like that.  You love kids and the kids appreciate that, especially the ones born in foster care or worse.  We will need to teach the kids that mankind can love and treat others with respect and not as pawns or worse, human you know what.  Poor kids were taught to fear so many things in grade school the last three years or so.  Love not fear.  No compassion for others, no grace for you.  We will find out that some people were born into some evil stuff that were forced to do things that would make your hair on your back go up.  I told you and a few others on PM what this will come down to.  The kids!!!  Love you man and keep standing for the kids, for the kids sakes!!!


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! Still using masks and vaccines in the same breath. Let me remind you that Wilt Chamberlain and my dad combined to score 100 points in a game on 3/2/1962.


It’s not just the vaccine.  The US per capita death rate in 2020 was higher than Canada’s, and that has nothing to do with vaccine usage.

Put another way, your dad carried the team to victory even when Wilt was out with a knee injury.  Maybe he is better at hoops than you thought.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s not just the vaccine.  The US per capita death rate in 2020 was higher than Canada’s, and that has nothing to do with vaccine usage.
> 
> Put another way, your dad carried the team to victory even when Wilt was out with a knee injury.  Maybe he is better at hoops than you thought.


oh you.  We can pick time periods and regions all day.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493339994210988033


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> It’s not just the vaccine.  The US per capita death rate in 2020 was higher than Canada’s, and that has nothing to do with vaccine usage.
> 
> Put another way, your dad carried the team to victory even when Wilt was out with a knee injury.  Maybe he is better at hoops than you thought.


You just don't give up.  The US was/is always destined to have higher mortality rates than peer countries.  Doesn't really matter what you do, unless you cut out pepsi, french fries, donuts, joo joo beans, etc.  

I admire (kinda) your desire to 100% protect everyone walking the streets in this country.  Unfortunately that wasn't never going to be an achievable end state.  What we should have done (as most smart health experts have been advocating since this all began) was to focus on the most vulnerable.  People 

A nuanced approach to public health was thrown out the window years ago, with plenty of blame to go around.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> p.s. Russia has been one of the worst in both masking and vaccine uptick.  My son follows "Bald and Bankrupt" religiously on youtube.  Not a Russian mask to be seen.
> 
> Supposedly attendees at the superbowl were vaxxed or tested.  Reports of checks though were spotty at best.


“Reports”? Do tell.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> oh you.  We can pick time periods and regions all day.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493339994210988033


Flawed comparison, just a political axe grinder.  Testing density CA vs USA average?  And take a peak at US average population density vs CA.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Flawed comparison, just a political axe grinder.  Testing density CA vs USA average?  And take a peak at US average population density vs CA.


How about Canada which dad 4 was tossing up?

We can make these comparisons and distinguish them all day....it's literally never ending.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> oh you.  We can pick time periods and regions all day.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493339994210988033


Vaccines ought to sue @dad4 for slander for comparing them to masks.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> How about Canada which dad 4 was tossing up?
> 
> We can make these comparisons and distinguish them all day....it's literally never ending.


Which is why it is important to make valid comparisons, otherwise it either useless or can be used to drive misinformation.  Again, since we see the per 100K so frequently, the questions becomes who are the 100K that are being compared, and is it a meaningful comparison.  on this thread I seem to remember a link to an economist who chased their tail for 3000 words or so wrapping their head around the idea that normalization can be used to reveal or it can be used to obscure.


----------



## crush

*HAPPENING NOW: If you are Canadian and you support the truckers and the government finds out about it they can shut down your bank accounts without a court order EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.*


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Which is why it is important to make valid comparisons, otherwise it either useless or can be used to drive misinformation.  Again, since we see the per 100K so frequently, the questions becomes who are the 100K that are being compared, and is it a meaningful comparison.  on this thread I seem to remember a link to an economist who chased their tail for 3000 words or so wrapping their head around the idea that normalization can be used to reveal or it can be used to obscure.


Careful.  My Orwellian translator is blinking that "valid" might mean "that I agree with" or that uses the "variables I agree with".

My main purpose was to show that dad4's Canada comparison, like most of them that are done, are ridiculous.  If we are talking cases, the world is pretty much over a long enough time horizon doing to wind up in the same place.  If we are talking deaths, it's the same with a handful of distinguishing characteristics including vaccine uptake, population age, obesity, and how hard you got hit before vaccines became widely available  Everything else is noise.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Flawed comparison, just a political axe grinder.  Testing density CA vs USA average?  And take a peak at US average population density vs CA.


I could compare CA to low density states in the north of the US.  Sound fair?

Perhaps MT, ND, SD, MN, AK, WI, and MI.

I won't be mean and saddle you with solid blue states like WA and ME.  They'd ruin your average.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *HAPPENING NOW: If you are Canadian and you support the truckers and the government finds out about it they can shut down your bank accounts without a court order EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.*


Dang, you should put on your viking hat and face paint, and then storm the Capitol building asap.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I could compare CA to low density states in the north of the US.  Sound fair?
> 
> Perhaps MT, ND, SD, MN, AK, WI, and MI.
> 
> I won't be mean and saddle you with solid blue states like WA and ME.  They'd ruin your average.


That is along the lines of why the original comparison in the tweet Grace linked is likely flawed and simply done for effect.  US population density look up is 90 something mi(2) whereas CA is 250 mi(2).  Testing rate per 100K, how does that compare?  Age distribution (lots of the better rate comparisons are age adjusted anymore).  Etc. You could pick states that are probably closer to being an orange to an orange on basic population criteria.  But it is still comparing data sets that likely differ in unpredictable ways.   so the best thing short of random sampling is try and get a dataset for one group likely to share a lot in common and compare on a variable.  That's pretty easy to do with something like vaxx status in a city and how do cases bin, for instance, at least in principle.  But I'm guessing it's gets trickier with NPI since if I remember that  was the initial thing.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> You just don't give up.  The US was/is always destined to have higher mortality rates than peer countries.  Doesn't really matter what you do, unless you cut out pepsi, french fries, donuts, joo joo beans, etc.
> 
> I admire (kinda) your desire to 100% protect everyone walking the streets in this country.  Unfortunately that wasn't never going to be an achievable end state.  What we should have done (as most smart health experts have been advocating since this all began) was to focus on the most vulnerable.  People
> 
> A nuanced approach to public health was thrown out the window years ago, with plenty of blame to go around.


Your theory is that Canada doesn’t have unhealthy food?  

I’ll bet you a Molson and a bowl of poutine that they have some.


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> Your theory is that Canada doesn’t have unhealthy food?
> 
> I’ll bet you a Molson and a bowl of poutine that they have some.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Your theory is that Canada doesn’t have unhealthy food?
> 
> I’ll bet you a Molson and a bowl of poutine that they have some.


Excellent when served with a vintage red (red snapper hot dog, that is).


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Dang, you should put on your viking hat and face paint, and then storm the Capitol building asap.


*or just kill, burn, and loot.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Your theory is that Canada doesn’t have unhealthy food?
> 
> I’ll bet you a Molson and a bowl of poutine that they have some.


Yea, that's my theory.


----------



## crush

*Adults at Super Bowl*



*Kids at school after the super bowl.  *



*Adults celebrating at Disneyland after Super Bowl*


----------



## met61

...you're being played.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...you're being played.


Played or destroyed, depending on your rainy day fund the last two years.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I could compare CA to low density states in the north of the US.  Sound fair?
> 
> Perhaps MT, ND, SD, MN, AK, WI, and MI.
> 
> I won't be mean and saddle you with solid blue states like WA and ME.  They'd ruin your average.


Cherry picking again. 

And you claim to be a math guy. 

So many variables not accounted for. 

Health of population, demographics, density, type of climate, etc. 

It is why there are so many variations between the states and WITHIN the states. 

It is why with in the EU which has a smaller area you see differences between countries who had similar POINTLESS mask rules and lockdowns. 

Masks don't work. If they did you would see lots of studies showing this to be the fact. CDC studied it and came to the conclusion pre covid they are ineffective. WHO in 2019 said the same thing. Only thing that changed was the politics. You are still stuck talking about the Bangladesh study which isn't really conclusive one way or the other. By now with hundreds of millions of people using or who have used masks in countless countries...if they really made a difference there would be a ton of well regarded studies showing it. The fact that there are not any tells you all you need to know. 

Lockdowns don't work because people have to go out and work, etc. Human nature comes into play as well. 

It is an amazing thing to watch you cling to zero covid. Pretending that if we had just done this we would have saved X amount of people. 

And then your latest with N95s (yes I know you have been wearing them for some time). You claim and others that THIS is the solution. 

IT isn't either. They are not designed to be worn for any long period of time. They need to be fitted properly. Nobody is doing that. Those reasons alone tell you that they wont be the solution. That is called what happens in the real world. You are looking at the label and thinking they should stop 95% of everything therefore in the world at large it will reduce transmission by 95%. It won't because of human nature, their actual design, the need to be properly fitted, etc.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Cherry picking again.
> 
> And you claim to be a math guy.
> 
> So many variables not accounted for.
> 
> Health of population, demographics, density, type of climate, etc.
> 
> It is why there are so many variations between the states and WITHIN the states.
> 
> It is why with in the EU which has a smaller area you see differences between countries who had similar POINTLESS mask rules and lockdowns.
> 
> Masks don't work. If they did you would see lots of studies showing this to be the fact. CDC studied it and came to the conclusion pre covid they are ineffective. WHO in 2019 said the same thing. Only thing that changed was the politics. You are still stuck talking about the Bangladesh study which isn't really conclusive one way or the other. By now with hundreds of millions of people using or who have used masks in countless countries...if they really made a difference there would be a ton of well regarded studies showing it. The fact that there are not any tells you all you need to know.
> 
> Lockdowns don't work because people have to go out and work, etc. Human nature comes into play as well.
> 
> It is an amazing thing to watch you cling to zero covid. Pretending that if we had just done this we would have saved X amount of people.
> 
> And then your latest with N95s (yes I know you have been wearing them for some time). You claim and others that THIS is the solution.
> 
> IT isn't either. They are not designed to be worn for any long period of time. They need to be fitted properly. Nobody is doing that. Those reasons alone tell you that they wont be the solution. That is called what happens in the real world. You are looking at the label and thinking they should stop 95% of everything therefore in the world at large it will reduce transmission by 95%. It won't because of human nature, their actual design, the need to be properly fitted, etc.


Nice word spam.

If you want the heavy statistical analysis, it exists.

But it tells you the things you don't want to hear: masks work, bars spread covid, and vaccines also reduce transmission.

Those things you mock?   They save lives.


----------



## Grace T.

A good piece by Vinay Prasad on the junk studies the CDC has been putting out that have been geared to justify their policies, and how it resembles propaganda (hmmm....someone around here has used that word before to describe these) rather than actual science.  It leads the realclearpolitics articles for today.









						How the CDC Abandoned Science
					

Mass youth hospitalizations, COVID-induced diabetes, and other myths from the brave new world of science as political propaganda




					www.tabletmag.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Nice word spam.
> 
> If you want the heavy statistical analysis, it exists.
> 
> But it tells you the things you don't want to hear: masks work, bars spread covid, and vaccines also reduce transmission.
> 
> Those things you mock?   They save lives.


I thought the vaccine is supposed to save lives?  hmmn...antivax misinformation I guess.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Nice word spam.
> 
> If you want the heavy statistical analysis, it exists.
> 
> But it tells you the things you don't want to hear: masks work, bars spread covid, and vaccines also reduce transmission.
> 
> Those things you mock?   They save lives.


“Almost invariably they get minimal symptoms or no symptoms at all,” but new research shows they average about the same level of virus in their nasal pharynx as they unvaccinated, so that’s why vaccinated people need to wear masks indoors, Fauci said on *CBS*‘s “Face The Nation.”


----------



## Grace T.

You may or may not agree that the methods the truckers are employing are merited, but the Canadian governments response has essentially smashed through another set of norms in the western democratic world, this time due process.  If a government can declare any protest it deems excessive or offensive illegal, and then move to seize bank accounts supporting those protests without judicial review, a dark line has been crossed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493427249974030338


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> “Almost invariably they get minimal symptoms or no symptoms at all,” but new research shows they average about the same level of virus in their nasal pharynx as they unvaccinated, so that’s why vaccinated people need to wear masks indoors, Fauci said on *CBS*‘s “Face The Nation.”


Yes.  Same peak, fewer symptoms, shorter duration.

Fauci has a record of telling that part of the truth which prompts the behavior he thinks will help.  Remember the line on masks from March, 2020.  

So, when he wants vaccinated people to wear masks, he reminds us that we can still spread covid.  He omits the facts that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected, and spread covid for a shorter time.  

He’s not quite lying, but he’s not telling the full truth either.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Nice word spam.
> 
> If you want the heavy statistical analysis, it exists.
> 
> But it tells you the things you don't want to hear: masks work, bars spread covid, and vaccines also reduce transmission.
> 
> Those things you mock?   They save lives.


They don't save lives. 

Other than not going out and avoiding human contact, none of the "plans" or masks made a difference. 

You like to pull numbers out of thin air or as pointed out above cherry pick data so you can avoid reality.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I thought the vaccine is supposed to save lives?  hmmn...antivax misinformation I guess.


You’ve made progress.  You used to be all about single cause fallacies.  Now you’re making a single effect fallacy.   Hope it’s fun to try something new.

More to the point, the fact that the vaccine reduces your odds of death does not mean it cannot also reduce your odds of transmission.  It does both.  

(hence the oversimplified “dead end for the virus” claim)


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’ve made progress.  You used to be all about single cause fallacies.  Now you’re making a single effect fallacy.   Hope it’s fun to try something new.
> 
> More to the point, the fact that the vaccine reduces your odds of death does not mean it cannot also reduce your odds of transmission.  It does both.
> 
> (hence the oversimplified “dead end for the virus” claim)


Still having a hard time wrapping my head around on why cases matter so much to you if a) everyone is eventually going to get it (so you are just fiddling around with time), and b) the vaccines do a good job at preventing death and severe outcome.

You are still clutching at COVID zero, whether you admit it or not, it seems til the very end.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> They don't save lives.
> 
> Other than not going out and avoiding human contact, none of the "plans" or masks made a difference.
> 
> You like to pull numbers out of thin air or as pointed out above cherry pick data so you can avoid reality.


So you say.  

You also told us, with equal confidence, that Arizona was not actually having a case spike.  It was all an artifact of increased testing, as I recall.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> You may or may not agree that the methods the truckers are employing are merited, but the Canadian governments response has essentially smashed through another set of norms in the western democratic world, this time due process.  If a government can declare any protest it deems excessive or offensive illegal, and then move to seize bank accounts supporting those protests without judicial review, a dark line has been crossed.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493427249974030338


And the time is now to stop crap like this.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Still having a hard time wrapping my head around on why cases matter so much to you if a) everyone is eventually going to get it (so you are just fiddling around with time), and b) the vaccines do a good job at preventing death and severe outcome.
> 
> You are still clutching at COVID zero, whether you admit it or not, it seems til the very end.


Transmission matters.  Not cases.

 I don’t care how many people catch a mild case, discover it through testing, and quarantine before they give it to anyone.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> A good piece by Vinay Prasad on the junk studies the CDC has been putting out that have been geared to justify their policies, and how it resembles propaganda (hmmm....someone around here has used that word before to describe these) rather than actual science.  It leads the realclearpolitics articles for today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the CDC Abandoned Science
> 
> 
> Mass youth hospitalizations, COVID-induced diabetes, and other myths from the brave new world of science as political propaganda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tabletmag.com


The CDC has been very clearly political in their handling of covid and their preferred solutions.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Transmission matters.  Not cases.
> 
> I don’t care how many people catch a mild case, discover it through testing, and quarantine before they give it to anyone.


This is absolutely one of the flat out most ridiculous and nonsensical things you've written here (which BTW your track record started while overly cautious yet thoughtful when this stuff started to the increasingly disconnected from reality now).  

1. Transmission is even more 1 step removed from severe outcome.  In the absence of a case it is a meaningless statistic (and why some of us as a result are hoping for an end to meaningless asymptomatic testing).
2.  Going back to normal means that if cases are mild, they shouldn't have to test, much less quarantine.  A simple rule of stay home if sick should suffice.  If schools and offices want to do temperature checks and send home obviously sick individuals great, but nothing more is really needed.
3. You realize you've just essentially said you don't care if the vaccines do well in reducing severe outcome...what you really care about is that people don't give it to one another.  You've essentially just admitted you are still all in to COVID zero.

A more generous heart would just ascribe this to your focus on mathematics than words and therefore being imprecise, particularly when compounded with the internet, but my ever growing skeptical nature forbids me from fully accepting that.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> This is absolutely one of the flat out most ridiculous and nonsensical things you've written here (which BTW your track record started while overly cautious yet thoughtful when this stuff started to the increasingly disconnected from reality now).
> 
> 1. Transmission is even more 1 step removed from severe outcome.  In the absence of a case it is a meaningless statistic (and why some of us as a result are hoping for an end to meaningless asymptomatic testing).
> 2.  Going back to normal means that if cases are mild, they shouldn't have to test, much less quarantine.  A simple rule of stay home if sick should suffice.  If schools and offices want to do temperature checks and send home obviously sick individuals great, but nothing more is really needed.
> 3. You realize you've just essentially said you don't care if the vaccines do well in reducing severe outcome...what you really care about is that people don't give it to one another.  You've essentially just admitted you are still all in to COVID zero.
> 
> A more generous heart would just ascribe this to your focus on mathematics than words and therefore being imprecise, particularly when compounded with the internet, but my ever growing skeptical nature forbids me from fully accepting that.


If you want to tell me growth rates don’t matter, you need to take a biological dynamical systems class.  

Without that, you are just repeating “I don’t understand it, but it can’t be true.”


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *Adults at Super Bowl*
> 
> View attachment 12903
> 
> *Kids at school after the super bowl.  *
> 
> View attachment 12902
> 
> *Adults celebrating at Disneyland after Super Bowl*
> 
> View attachment 12904


Yes, schools aren't requiring kids get vaccinated, so they get masks.  They wouldn't be wearing masks if the parents of the little unvaccinated shits would do what they should.

So is your daughter getting vaxxed before heading to Spain, or will it be the shortest trip ever?  How's unemployment btw?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If you want to tell me growth rates don’t matter, you need to take a biological dynamical systems class.
> 
> Without that, you are just repeating “I don’t understand it, but it can’t be true.”


Hmmmm....strike up another reason for me being right.  Guess I don't need to regret not having a generous heart.

I don't care if the world catches a cold if there's no technology on the horizon that prevents it.  I care about serious outcomes.  I seriously don't understand the topsy turvey world you are living in.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, schools aren't requiring kids get vaccinated, so they get masks.  They wouldn't be wearing masks if the parents of the little unvaccinated shits would do what they should.
> 
> So is your daughter getting vaxxed before heading to Spain, or will it be the shortest trip ever?  How's unemployment btw?



You are still displaying your childhood tendencies.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hmmmm....strike up another reason for me being right.  Guess I don't need to regret not having a generous heart.
> 
> I don't care if the world catches a cold if there's no technology on the horizon that prevents it.  I care about serious outcomes.  I seriously don't understand the topsy turvey world you are living in.


Agree you don’t understand it.

Do you find the following sentence plausible:

Covid transmission in a poorly ventilated space between unmasked unvaccinated people is roughly a thousand times more efficient than covid transmission outdoors between masked vaccinated people.

My bet is you read it and think “no way.”

I read it and think “19:1 for being outside.  6:1 for the recipient’s vaccine.  That’s over 100:1.  Then something for the source’s vaccine and the two masks.  Yes, it is reasonable.”


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Same peak, fewer symptoms, shorter duration.
> 
> Fauci has a record of telling that part of the truth which prompts the behavior he thinks will help.  Remember the line on masks from March, 2020.
> 
> So, when he wants vaccinated people to wear masks, he reminds us that we can still spread covid.  He omits the facts that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected, and spread covid for a shorter time.
> 
> He’s not quite lying, but he’s not telling the full truth either.


It’s called “lying by omission”….we only get information he deems is important.  Wonder what else he is withholding.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, schools aren't requiring kids get vaccinated, so they get masks.  They wouldn't be wearing masks if the parents of the little unvaccinated shits would do what they should.
> 
> So is your daughter getting vaxxed before heading to Spain, or will it be the shortest trip ever?  How's unemployment btw?


Why should kids get vax’d if they aren’t at risk?  Who are you protecting, the vaccinated?

why do the vaccinated need protecting?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Agree you don’t understand it.
> 
> Do you find the following sentence plausible:
> 
> Covid transmission in a poorly ventilated space between unmasked unvaccinated people is roughly a thousand times more efficient than covid transmission outdoors between masked vaccinated people.
> 
> My bet is you read it and think “no way.”
> 
> I read it and think “19:1 for being outside.  6:1 for the recipient’s vaccine.  That’s over 100:1.  Then something for the source’s vaccine and the two masks.  Yes, it is reasonable.”


Why would I even care about it at this point? 

Firstly, as usual, you've conflated a bunch of variables.  Indoor/outdoor....pretty solid evidence outdoor is worse for facilitating spread.  Masks/unmasked...you didn't answer the time BTW which is much more relevant or what types of masks but the impact here particularly if the time is long is minimal.  Ventilation of course it's important for transmissions.

BUT AGAIN WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT TRANSMISSION?  Everyone in that room has been vaccinated (and likely offered a booster), or offered a vaccine or is so young it doesn't matter.  If it's a glassstaff person they shouldn't be in that room.  The vaccine works....I care about severe outcomes....I don't care if people catch colds....again, WHY DO YOU?

Seriously man the more and more we come out of this the more unhinged you are becoming.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You may or may not agree that the methods the truckers are employing are merited, but the Canadian governments response has essentially smashed through another set of norms in the western democratic world, this time due process.  If a government can declare any protest it deems excessive or offensive illegal, and then move to seize bank accounts supporting those protests without judicial review, a dark line has been crossed.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493427249974030338


Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.

Now do asset forfeiture laws.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.
> 
> Now do asset forfeiture laws.


Only after doing Government Overreach and Abuse of power.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Why would I even care about it at this point?
> 
> Firstly, as usual, you've conflated a bunch of variables.  Indoor/outdoor....pretty solid evidence outdoor is worse for facilitating spread.  Masks/unmasked...you didn't answer the time BTW which is much more relevant or what types of masks but the impact here particularly if the time is long is minimal.  Ventilation of course it's important for transmissions.
> 
> BUT AGAIN WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT TRANSMISSION?  Everyone in that room has been vaccinated (and likely offered a booster), or offered a vaccine or is so young it doesn't matter.  If it's a glassstaff person they shouldn't be in that room.  The vaccine works....I care about severe outcomes....I don't care if people catch colds....again, WHY DO YOU?
> 
> Seriously man the more and more we come out of this the more unhinged you are becoming.


I told you why. 

You want to draw a nice bright line.  Vaccinated to the left.  Previously infected to the left.  No immunity to the right.  Now we have neatly divided the population into those who are protected and those who chose their risk.

The real world is not that clean.   About 2-2.5% of the population us immuno-compromised.   Even after they get boosted, they still have one foot on each side of your line.   Some people are old enough that they are vulnerable anyway.  Even after you draw your neat little line, there are still millions of vulnerable people who don’t really fit on either side.

Then think about what happens to our medical system when millions of unvaccinated people get the new variant, all at the same time?  When the lung specialist is working 60 hour weeks treating covid patients, how much time does a pneumonia or emphysema patient get?

It is much simpler if we all follow the advice we have been given: vaccine, mask, outdoor, distance.  All of it.  Not skipping the mask part because we think a twitter feed does better science than NIH.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> It is much simpler if we all follow the advice we have been given: vaccine, mask, outdoor, distance. All of it. Not skipping the mask part because we think a twitter feed does better science than NIH.


You realize the world is moving on. What you say is simple, etc... people vaxxed or not have had enough of it.

Masks didn't stop the spread and their usage is going away. Mandates for them are going away rather fast.

Distancing? Again that is going away or gone in most parts.

Outdoor? That doesn't work due to the nature of business, buildings, etc. Most commerce, interaction, etc is done indoors.

In other words you are tilting at windmills again.

Doing the above didn't work and so it is pointless to try to continue something that only hurts education, devastates business, has caused rampant inflation, etc.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Agree you don’t understand it.
> 
> Do you find the following sentence plausible:
> 
> Covid transmission in a poorly ventilated space between unmasked unvaccinated people is roughly a thousand times more efficient than covid transmission outdoors between masked vaccinated people.
> 
> My bet is you read it and think “no way.”
> 
> I read it and think “19:1 for being outside.  6:1 for the recipient’s vaccine.  That’s over 100:1.  Then something for the source’s vaccine and the two masks.  Yes, it is reasonable.”


You have a real problem with reality, I am still trying to figure out if you really believe in the nonsense you spew.  Case count has lost much of its value for so many reasons, so that argument will no longer work for you.  I imagine this is you trying, to figure it all out..... I worry that you are having trouble seeing reality because you are so fixated on numbers and hypothesis


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I told you why.
> 
> You want to draw a nice bright line.  Vaccinated to the left.  Previously infected to the left.  No immunity to the right.  Now we have neatly divided the population into those who are protected and those who chose their risk.
> 
> The real world is not that clean.   About 2-2.5% of the population us immuno-compromised.   Even after they get boosted, they still have one foot on each side of your line.   Some people are old enough that they are vulnerable anyway.  Even after you draw your neat little line, there are still millions of vulnerable people who don’t really fit on either side.
> 
> Then think about what happens to our medical system when millions of unvaccinated people get the new variant, all at the same time?  When the lung specialist is working 60 hour weeks treating covid patients, how much time does a pneumonia or emphysema patient get?
> 
> It is much simpler if we all follow the advice we have been given: vaccine, mask, outdoor, distance.  All of it.  Not skipping the mask part because we think a twitter feed does better science than NIH.



What you want is a prescription to never return back to normal.  I told you way back when in early 2020 that it couldn't go on forever.  "Distance" = no normal social interactions for more than 2 years out.  It's more horrifying than even the mask part.  No thanks.  Hard pass.

Again, as to the glassstaff people, they (like my folks) should be taking steps to isolate themselves if we are worried.  At this point our efforts should be directed at boosting the elderly (you want a mandate...there's one I can actually get behind....no residence inside a nursing home unless you are boosted certain very limited religious and health reasons excepted) and immunocompromised and supporting them to the extent they still feel vulnerable.  Beyond that, we don't glassstaff for flu...we don't glassstaff for RSV.

The medical system has never collapsed and by the time omicron is done, almost everyone will have natural immunity or be vaccinated.  Your point there is irrelevant there, especially considering the government has had more than 2 years now to prepare for that eventually.

Finally, as to variants, you know I've told you repeatedly the issue isn't here in the US or highly vaccinated Europe....it's in the third world.  Another thing I could get behind is vaccines for the third world (and something the Biden admin has done a very poor job with....vaccinated nonvulnerable young people here while elderly in the third world are dying).

You deny it, but everything in your response reads COVID zero.  I swear man as this comes to an end, you've become completely unhinged.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You realize the world is moving on. What you say is simple, etc... people vaxxed or not have had enough of it.
> 
> Masks didn't stop the spread and their usage is going away. Mandates for them are going away rather fast.
> 
> Distancing? Again that is going away or gone in most parts.
> 
> Outdoor? That doesn't work due to the nature of business, buildings, etc. Most commerce, interaction, etc is done indoors.
> 
> In other words you are tilting at windmills again.
> 
> Doing the above didn't work and so it is pointless to try to continue something that only hurts education, devastates business, has caused rampant inflation, etc.


Your basic argument is that masks and distance didn’t work because you were too stubborn to do it.  

I agree with that statement.  People like you contributed to a lot of death and misery by refusing to do your part.  

Fortunately, by now it is mostly over.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You may or may not agree that the methods the truckers are employing are merited, but the Canadian governments response has essentially smashed through another set of norms in the western democratic world, this time due process.  If a government can declare any protest it deems excessive or offensive illegal, and then move to seize bank accounts supporting those protests without judicial review, a dark line has been crossed.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493427249974030338


One of my old clients owned a Thai place.  He put his whole rainy day fund towards his dream of cooking his great grammies Thai cuisine to all the folks in San Gabriel Valley.  He was kicking ass until the first wave of Covid hit our shores in early 2020.  He did not have a big rainy day fund because his funds were all in at his business.  People like him were not prepared to be ruined and told,  "SOL Pal."  I go to a killer place in Lake Forest.  Before Covid, the place was packed and full of love and joy.  Today, no one to serve you.  Most people take out but you can sit and serve yourself.  No dishwasher so all paper plates.  So sad to see the destruction of people's business.  My checker is moving to AZ.  She's had enough.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> You have a real problem with reality, I am still trying to figure out if you really believe in the nonsense you spew.  Case count has lost much of its value for so many reasons, so that argument will no longer work for you.  I imagine this is you trying, to figure it all out..... I worry that you are having trouble seeing reality because you are so fixated on numbers and hypothesis
> 
> View attachment 12907


Reality?  Like the reality that 900,000 Americans are now dead, but 600,000 of them would be alive if we had done as well as Canada?

Yeah, let’s talk a little about that reality.  There is the cost.  600,000 deaths.  Did our anti-vax, anti-mask movement get us any kind of benefit to outweigh it?  Or did we just watch 600,000 people die for no good reason?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Reality?  Like the reality that 900,000 Americans are now dead, but 600,000 of them would be alive if we had done as well as Canada?
> 
> Yeah, let’s talk a little about that reality.  There is the cost.  600,000 deaths.  Did our anti-vax, anti-mask movement get us any kind of benefit to outweigh it?  Or did we just watch 600,000 people die for no good reason?


No, it's not.  As evilgoalkeeper pointed out to you there are a lot of other variables there.  Firstly, I trust you have done the comparison of deaths to millions.  Second, you aren't taking into account certain variables that could control death numbers like obesity, age, and race.  Third, you aren't taking into account variables that might impact cases pre vaccine like density and seasonality (the US also has a variety of seasonal zones) and the border.  Fourth, anything post vax is those people making their own independent choices and dealing with the consequences.  So it's not "600,000".

Next we need to break down individual policies.  Masks? They didn't do very much.  Yeah, I know you disagree but there's not much I can do to ply the blue pill from your cold dead hands.  So if not that, what other policies are you talking about?  Lockdowns?  We've all said that's what you've wanted so I'm glad it's out in the open: Australia/NZ type lockdowns is what you've always wanted.  BTW, it's funny you got so offended about you being called an authoritarian and there you are rushing to hug the country which is now being accused of being the biggest authoritarian of the western democracies, even out of step now with Europe.

You aren't even being honest with the numbers anymore.  You know it's not 600,000.  But as I said, you've become completely divorced from reality, and emotionally unhinged as this comes to a close.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Nice word spam.
> 
> If you want the heavy statistical analysis, it exists.
> 
> But it tells you the things you don't want to hear: masks work, bars spread covid, and vaccines also reduce transmission.
> 
> Those things you mock?   They save lives.


Junk math and junk studies.  unfortuantely some junk medicine as well (on both sides of the equestion).  Bars early on certainly seemed risky, not anymore.  Even spain has lifted restrictions on vaccine passports.  They've conceded the equal opportunity nature of little o - it just doesn't care what's been injected into your body.  From their view, they've vaccinted plenty, now time to let it ride


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Reality?  Like the reality that 900,000 Americans are now dead, but 600,000 of them would be alive if we had done as well as Canada?
> 
> Yeah, let’s talk a little about that reality.  There is the cost.  600,000 deaths.  Did our anti-vax, anti-mask movement get us any kind of benefit to outweigh it?  Or did we just watch 600,000 people die for no good reason?


600K? splain.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No, it's not.  As evilgoalkeeper pointed out to you there are a lot of other variables there.  Firstly, I trust you have done the comparison of deaths to millions.  Second, you aren't taking into account certain variables that could control death numbers like obesity, age, and race.  Third, you aren't taking into account variables that might impact cases pre vaccine like density and seasonality (the US also has a variety of seasonal zones) and the border.  Fourth, anything post vax is those people making their own independent choices and dealing with the consequences.  So it's not "600,000".
> 
> Next we need to break down individual policies.  Masks? They didn't do very much.  Yeah, I know you disagree but there's not much I can do to ply the blue pill from your cold dead hands.  So if not that, what other policies are you talking about?  Lockdowns?  We've all said that's what you've wanted so I'm glad it's out in the open: Australia/NZ type lockdowns is what you've always wanted.  BTW, it's funny you got so offended about you being called an authoritarian and there you are rushing to hug the country which is now being accused of being the biggest authoritarian of the western democracies, even out of step now with Europe.
> 
> You aren't even being honest with the numbers anymore.  You know it's not 600,000.  But as I said, you've become completely divorced from reality, and emotionally unhinged as this comes to a close.


You want FUD as an escape from responsibility.  Maybe, if you throw enough sand in the air and point in enough different directions, you won’t have to face the fact that you’ve been advocating for actions and policies which resulted in a lot of deaths.

There is plenty of reason to believe that deaths in the US were far higher than was necessary.  Birx was even harsher than I am.  She went on record with the claim that the first 100K deaths were baked in, and everything after that was preventable.  

So, yes.  The anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-indoor recreation movement resulted in a lot of deaths.  And 600,000 is a reasonable estimate.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> 600K? splain.


Our death rate is about 3X the death rate in Canada.

We had 900K deaths.  If we had had Canada’s death rate, that would be 300K.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You want FUD as an escape from responsibility.  Maybe, if you throw enough sand in the air and point in enough different directions, you won’t have to face the fact that you’ve been advocating for actions and policies which resulted in a lot of deaths.
> 
> There is plenty of reason to believe that deaths in the US were far higher than was necessary.  Birx was even harsher than I am.  She went on record with the claim that the first 100K deaths were baked in, and everything after that was preventable.
> 
> So, yes.  The anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-indoor recreation movement resulted in a lot of deaths.  And 600,000 is a reasonable estimate.


Don't get me started on Birx.  Only a handful of sources to go on, including the Atlas book, but if Atlas is even half right Birx was an even bigger clown than Fauci.  That number is just laughable on its face as is your 600,000 figure.  Again, completely divorced from reality.  Peru would like to have a word with you BTW (yeah I know you'll distinguish on the grounds of poverty....and round and round we go just like evilgoalkeeper said....you'll distinguish everything to justify your fantasy)

The only way we get to the numbers you cite are basically at a minimum Australian/New Zealand/Singapore type authoritarian measures or maybe even China.  That's what it would have taken.  That's what you want.  And then you wonder why we call you an authoritarian.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Reality?  Like the reality that 900,000 Americans are now dead, but 600,000 of them would be alive if we had done as well as Canada?
> 
> Yeah, let’s talk a little about that reality.  There is the cost.  600,000 deaths.  Did our anti-vax, anti-mask movement get us any kind of benefit to outweigh it?  Or did we just watch 600,000 people die for no good reason?


Once again there is the fixation, there is actually a name for it *Arithmomania,* often found in those with OCD.  Check it out.  IMO you are so fixated on certain numbers you are failing to recognize reality such as...let look JAMA leading causes of death in 2020
*Covid- 345,000... Unintentional- 192,000... Influenza 53,000...Diabetes 101,000...Suicide 45,000*
So numbers guy....why such laser focus on Covid?  I just listed 4 other leading causes of death where people died for no good reason.
Influenza you can get vaccinated but still killed 53,000
Eating would reduce diabetes greatly but those with diabetes generally have very poor eating habits
Last year we made people stay inside and suffer and have lost 45,000 to suicides
All those can be prevented and occur to ALL ages!!!

Then we have your Covid...were 93% of those that die are over 50 and of those 50% had hypertension and 40% had Diabetes...in some cities you will find those that died of covid and are obese or have diabetes to be over 50%

You are so fixated on the numbers you are failing to realize the small subset of people this is really affecting.  The media has done such a good job of creating fear and doubt that people have no idea of the truth. What about those numbers?

It is absolutely ridiculous what are government is doing, suppressing people so they can rely on the government to pull them through, so sad for all those who have fought and died for this country and our freedom












						40 Percent Who've Died from COVID-19 Had Diabetes
					

Experts note that diabetes is an inflammatory disease that can increase risks and complications if a person develops COVID-19




					www.healthline.com


----------



## Grace T.

soccersc said:


> Once again there is the fixation, there is actually a name for it *Arithmomania,* often found in those with OCD.


Fascinating.  Explains a lot


----------



## Grace T.

So much wrong with this CDC post starting with the picture with the barely out of toddlerhood (who most of Europe doesn't mask) kid wearing what is probably a counterfeit KN95 (at least it is for most people that try and buy one).  At this point the CDC has completely shattered any remaining credibility it has and is just trying to drive up vaccination numbers to reach bureaucratic internal targets and justify the money spent on pharma.  It's disgusting.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493661419274919936


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Our death rate is about 3X the death rate in Canada.
> 
> We had 900K deaths.  If we had had Canada’s death rate, that would be 300K.


uhh, no, not that simple.  Way too many factors to efficiently cover.  Some factors lean your way, others don't but certainly much more complex than the straight line you like to draw.  So much more complex.  But simple math equations are fun.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Fascinating.  Explains a lot


It is fascinating that he still thinks outside of 100k baked in everyone else was because we didn't do it right. 

He still wants covid zero. He seems paranoid to be honest. 

He is still essentially advocating masks, would prefer bars/restaurants and other indoor places be shut or limited. 

And the most fascinating part? The world around him is basically throwing in the towel and saying yeah lets get to normal. We will live with this like we do every other disease that afflicts us. And he doesn't want to.


----------



## dad4

Premptive thumbs up to Watfly’s upcoming post about CA relaxing mask rules for adults while keeping mask rules at schools.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> So much wrong with this CDC post starting with the picture with the barely out of toddlerhood (who most of Europe doesn't mask) kid wearing what is probably a counterfeit KN95 (at least it is for most people that try and buy one).  At this point the CDC has completely shattered any remaining credibility it has and is just trying to drive up vaccination numbers to reach bureaucratic internal targets and justify the money spent on pharma.  It's disgusting.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493661419274919936


The CDC is hilarious, especially it starts this early release article with:




So sciency and unbiased.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Premptive thumbs up to Watfly’s upcoming post about CA relaxing mask rules for adults while keeping mask rules at schools.


Good call by CA - CA adults are seasoned at holding their breaths...their offspring still need to develop the talent.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Good call by CA - CA adults are seasoned at holding their breaths...their offspring still need to develop the talent.


You would think that given how good we've gotten at it, we'd be breaking some world records by now.


----------



## Desert Hound

And of course shutting stuff down, spending money we dont have is really starting to bite.

A lot of very bad consequences from following terrible covid policies.

We decimated businesses. We forced people to use savings or borrow money. Kids got screwed educationally, etc. And now? Well everything is getting rather pricey. Hurting those that can least afford it. 

We did all of that in a don Quijote like quest to stop a respiratory virus. Something that a number of experts told us from the beginning we had NO CHANCE of actually stopping...and their conclusion was focus on the vulnerable...let everyone else do their thing. 

The bill for these idiotic policies is going to be very large. 

_Wholesale inflation in the United States surged again last month, *rising 9.7% from a year earlier *in a sign that price pressures remain high at all levels of the economy.

Last week, the government reported that inflation at the consumer level *soared over the past year at its highest rate in four decades, squeezing households, wiping out pay raises *and reinforcing the Federal Reserve's decision to begin raising borrowing rates. *The 7.5% price surge ranged across the economy, from food and furniture to apartment rents, airline fares and electricity.*_


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Once again there is the fixation, there is actually a name for it *Arithmomania,* often found in those with OCD.  Check it out.  IMO you are so fixated on certain numbers you are failing to recognize reality such as...let look JAMA leading causes of death in 2020
> *Covid- 345,000... Unintentional- 192,000... Influenza 53,000...Diabetes 101,000...Suicide 45,000*
> So numbers guy....why such laser focus on Covid?  I just listed 4 other leading causes of death where people died for no good reason.
> Influenza you can get vaccinated but still killed 53,000
> Eating would reduce diabetes greatly but those with diabetes generally have very poor eating habits
> Last year we made people stay inside and suffer and have lost 45,000 to suicides
> All those can be prevented and occur to ALL ages!!!
> 
> Then we have your Covid...were 93% of those that die are over 50 and of those 50% had hypertension and 40% had Diabetes...in some cities you will find those that died of covid and are obese or have diabetes to be over 50%
> 
> You are so fixated on the numbers you are failing to realize the small subset of people this is really affecting.  The media has done such a good job of creating fear and doubt that people have no idea of the truth. What about those numbers?
> 
> It is absolutely ridiculous what are government is doing, suppressing people so they can rely on the government to pull them through, so sad for all those who have fought and died for this country and our freedom
> 
> View attachment 12909
> View attachment 12915
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 40 Percent Who've Died from COVID-19 Had Diabetes
> 
> 
> Experts note that diabetes is an inflammatory disease that can increase risks and complications if a person develops COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com


Those fuckers with diabetes had it coming.  And old people.  And high risk children.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Those fuckers with diabetes had it coming.  And old people.  And high risk children.


Wow...so rash...nobody said they had it coming...you are kind of extreme!!! But as you would say for those who have not been vaccinated- totally avoidable! 

But that is the sort of comment that I have come used to, instead of trying to fix the real problem, go to the extreme and avoid the obvious.  You are very predictable and fit right in, with those that suppressing others and rely on the government because they can't think for themselves


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Those fuckers with diabetes had it coming.  And old people.  And high risk children.


That's right, especially those without jabs and supplemental jabs.  Def had it coming. Quit stuffing their faces with chili cheese fries...what were they thinking.


----------



## Grace T.

As if the universe is answering dad4, at least with respect to omicron, the main factor is vaccination rates.  If they wanted to do a mandate, should have focused on mandates for the over 65 and requiring boosters for nursing homes rather than masking and vaccinating school children.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493644548383326214


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> That's right, especially those without jabs and supplemental jabs.  Def had it coming. Quit stuffing their faces with chili cheese fries...what were they thinking.


Yes, let's do the same for anti-vaxxers/maskers!  When they start begging for horse paste at the hospital door, tell those shits they're on their own. And for those douches who already got their ICU stays and vents and survived, make them go back and pay 100% of the actual costs, instead of spreading it across other insureds who don't define "freedom" as an excuse to hurt other people.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, let's do the same for anti-vaxxers/maskers!  When they start begging for horse paste at the hospital door, tell those shits they're on their own. And for those douches who already got their ICU stays and vents and survived, make them go back and pay 100% of the actual costs, instead of spreading it across other insureds who don't define "freedom" as an excuse to hurt other people.


"golf clap" ---have you teleported from the past?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I told you why.
> 
> You want to draw a nice bright line.  Vaccinated to the left.  Previously infected to the left.  No immunity to the right.  Now we have neatly divided the population into those who are protected and those who chose their risk.
> 
> The real world is not that clean.   About 2-2.5% of the population us immuno-compromised.   Even after they get boosted, they still have one foot on each side of your line.   Some people are old enough that they are vulnerable anyway.  Even after you draw your neat little line, there are still millions of vulnerable people who don’t really fit on either side.
> 
> Then think about what happens to our medical system when millions of unvaccinated people get the new variant, all at the same time?  When the lung specialist is working 60 hour weeks treating covid patients, how much time does a pneumonia or emphysema patient get?
> 
> It is much simpler if we all follow the advice we have been given: vaccine, mask, outdoor, distance.  All of it.  Not skipping the mask part because we think a twitter feed does better science than NIH.


Fear does a number on some people and some of those people will scratch and claw at whatever they can in an attempt to prove themselves right (see id wins).


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You want FUD as an escape from responsibility.  Maybe, if you throw enough sand in the air and point in enough different directions, you won’t have to face the fact that you’ve been advocating for actions and policies which resulted in a lot of deaths.
> 
> There is plenty of reason to believe that deaths in the US were far higher than was necessary.  Birx was even harsher than I am.  She went on record with the claim that the first 100K deaths were baked in, and everything after that was preventable.
> 
> So, yes.  The anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-indoor recreation movement resulted in a lot of deaths.  And 600,000 is a reasonable estimate.


I just re-read this..oh my..anit mask and anti vaccine, pro indoor = 600K dead? Any wiggle room in their for other stuff?  Or is the straight line done in 50 font? 

How can you be so sure?  Are you down with the bangladesh mask study?  They were soooo sure.  How about pharma's intial vaccine confidence?  

Anyway, plenty of blame to go around - good thing for you SCC has prevalence of good genes, which isn't a bad thing.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> It is much simpler if we all follow the advice we have been given: vaccine, mask, outdoor, distance.  All of it.  Not skipping the mask part because we think a twitter feed does better science than NIH.


depends on the twitter feed.  I bet you are down with the CDC twitter feed.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fear does a number on some people and some of those people will scratch and claw at whatever they can in an attempt to prove themselves right (see id wins).


perfect 10.  bringing up fear with the most fearful guy on these forums, and then saying that we on team reality are the fearful ones.  excellent.  far better comedy than anything espola has produced recently


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> perfect 10.  bringing up fear with the most fearful guy on these forums, and then saying that we on team reality are the fearful ones.  excellent.  far better comedy than anything espola has produced recently


You wear your fear and insecurity like a badge of honor.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You wear your fear and insecurity like a badge of honor.


Again....comedy gold....you've gotten much better at this.  Not quite ready to crown you the No. 2 troll around here but keep at it and you will earn that prize.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Wow...so rash...nobody said they had it coming...you are kind of extreme!!! But as you would say for those who have not been vaccinated- totally avoidable!
> 
> But that is the sort of comment that I have come used to, instead of trying to fix the real problem, go to the extreme and avoid the obvious.  You are very predictable and fit right in, with those that suppressing others and rely on the government because they can't think for themselves


Ah, did you do your own research?  Are you a free thinker like these Herman Cain Award winning morons? 

Update: this scared and confused woman thought she was a free-thinker. Unfortunately she won’t get a chance to learn a lesson from covid. Her friend narrates her health spiral. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Former co-worker and free thinker learns the hard way… Apparently the only way he knew how to learn, that COVID was more than he expected. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Dale was an anti-mask, anti-vax, “free thinker”, who did his own research up until the end… please don’t be like Dale. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
10 hours a day, every day, Ticky did her own research & asked the hard questions. Flagged C-19 as a concern in early Feb 2020. Shared her research results. Real world application of said research resulted in her recent death. Oh, not a fan of the vax, either. [missed redacts] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Blue loved Kyle Rittenhouse, Trump, Candace Owens and online Solitaire. Blue hated Biden, gas prices, vaccines, and critical thinking. HCA pending officially but she's on her way out. Shit posting to the very end. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> depends on the twitter feed.  I bet you are down with the CDC twitter feed.


Not really.  The 140 character limit steers everyone toward oversimplification.

Even if you get the CDC feed, learning science through Twitter is like being a music critic who wears ear muffs.  You're missing a lot.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.
> 
> Now do asset forfeiture laws.


Remember, "Equity" now do looting, burning, and assaulting police.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Wow...so rash...nobody said they had it coming...you are kind of extreme!!! But as you would say for those who have not been vaccinated- totally avoidable!
> 
> But that is the sort of comment that I have come used to, instead of trying to fix the real problem, go to the extreme and avoid the obvious.  You are very predictable and fit right in, with those that suppressing others and rely on the government because they can't think for themselves


Uh, you're whining about vaccines and masks on a youth soccer board.  I would not call that trying to fix the problem. I would call that whining like a little baby.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I just re-read this..oh my..anit mask and anti vaccine, pro indoor = 600K dead? Any wiggle room in their for other stuff?  Or is the straight line done in 50 font?
> 
> How can you be so sure?  Are you down with the bangladesh mask study?  They were soooo sure.  How about pharma's intial vaccine confidence?
> 
> Anyway, plenty of blame to go around - good thing for you SCC has prevalence of good genes, which isn't a bad thing.


Good genes? 

SCC wore their masks, got their shots, and mostly closed their indoor dining.

Some of that is having jobs which work well on zoom.  But most of it is having respect for our classmates who took o-chem and MCB.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, you're whining about vaccines and masks on a youth soccer board.  I would not call that trying to fix the problem. I would call that whining like a little baby.


You're supporting a so-called " Experimental " joke that is killing
people at an ever-increasing rate, I would call that insanity.

Wait till the summer heat and the mix of " 4 " jabs/elevated heart rates.

Who will be crying like a baby?

Dr Fauci Highly effective (bitchute.com)


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, let's do the same for anti-vaxxers/maskers!  When they start begging for horse paste at the hospital door, tell those shits they're on their own. And for those douches who already got their ICU stays and vents and survived, make them go back and pay 100% of the actual costs, instead of spreading it across other insureds who don't define "freedom" as an excuse to hurt other people.


You are a sick individual.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not really.  The 140 character limit steers everyone toward oversimplification.
> 
> Even if you get the CDC feed, learning science through Twitter is like being a music critic who wears ear muffs.  You're missing a lot.


you are no longer limited to 140 characters on Twitter.  I agree that getting  information via tweet  is problematic, but it happens a ton.  Some of it is effective, some of it isn't.  The 140 character limit came and went some time ago, bascially ruining twitter.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Ah, did you do your own research?  Are you a free thinker like these Herman Cain Award winning morons?
> 
> Update: this scared and confused woman thought she was a free-thinker. Unfortunately she won’t get a chance to learn a lesson from covid. Her friend narrates her health spiral. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Former co-worker and free thinker learns the hard way… Apparently the only way he knew how to learn, that COVID was more than he expected. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Dale was an anti-mask, anti-vax, “free thinker”, who did his own research up until the end… please don’t be like Dale. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> 10 hours a day, every day, Ticky did her own research & asked the hard questions. Flagged C-19 as a concern in early Feb 2020. Shared her research results. Real world application of said research resulted in her recent death. Oh, not a fan of the vax, either. [missed redacts] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Blue loved Kyle Rittenhouse, Trump, Candace Owens and online Solitaire. Blue hated Biden, gas prices, vaccines, and critical thinking. HCA pending officially but she's on her way out. Shit posting to the very end. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)


At least you've evolved in your posts.  Nice job.


----------



## what-happened

thirteenknots said:


> You are a sick individual.


nahh, just some bothersome GI issues.  Easily treated OTC


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> you are no longer limited to 140 characters on Twitter.  I agree that getting  information via tweet  is problematic, but it happens a ton.  Some of it is effective, some of it isn't.  The 140 character limit came and went some time ago, bascially ruining twitter.


Twitter may be dying.  Behold the Rubicon...suspending someone for posting old tweets of other people.  Too early to tell yet but between this, the Canadian censorship and Trump going off on another platform, it may be the end of the beginning.









						BREAKING: Twitter suspends ‘Defiant L’s’, account best known for highlighting Liberal hypocrisy
					

The account that took screenshots of leftist’s sudden change of viewpoint on a situational basis of seeming convenience, has been removed from the platform.




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> nahh, just some bothersome GI issues.  Easily treated OTC


If his GI problem is parasites, he might be in trouble.

I hear people keep buying up all the anti-worm meds because they think it will help with their viral infection.


----------



## watfly

Well my luck finally ran out.  Mild cold and had a bad headache for a bit that I knocked out with an Advil and Tylenol combo.  Hadn't had a cold in 2 years so I was due.  Slept for a day and "missed" out on 4 pages of gibberish.  People still afraid of children I see.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Twitter may be dying.  Behold the Rubicon...suspending someone for posting old tweets of other people.  Too early to tell yet but between this, the Canadian censorship and Trump going off on another platform, it may be the end of the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BREAKING: Twitter suspends ‘Defiant L’s’, account best known for highlighting Liberal hypocrisy
> 
> 
> The account that took screenshots of leftist’s sudden change of viewpoint on a situational basis of seeming convenience, has been removed from the platform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepostmillennial.com


It really is a problem if the few sites that most people communicate on regularly ban conservative opinions.

Part of it is the ownership is generally liberal. The other problem are calls by Dem politicians to crack down on misinformation...aka other viewpoints.


----------



## thirteenknots

It's coming and no Lib/Rhino " sacrifice " can stop it.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Well my luck finally ran out.  Mild cold and had a bad headache for a bit that I knocked out with an Advil and Tylenol combo.  Hadn't had a cold in 2 years so I was due.  Slept for a day and "missed" out on 4 pages of gibberish.  People still afraid of children I see.


Omicron?  Glad to see your back stud and doing better.  Masking the kids still which is revealing to say the least.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> If his GI problem is parasites, he might be in trouble.
> 
> I hear people keep buying up all the anti-worm meds because they think it will help with their viral infection.


I'm sure the CDC's anti deworming medication twitter campaign will be very influential.  I wouldn't fret too much though, dewormer is really cheap to make and normally available.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well my luck finally ran out.  Mild cold and had a bad headache for a bit that I knocked out with an Advil and Tylenol combo.  Hadn't had a cold in 2 years so I was due.  Slept for a day and "missed" out on 4 pages of gibberish.  People still afraid of children I see.


Glad you're feeling well.

My daughter agrees with you that the school.mask rules are stupid.


----------



## Grace T.

If they've lost San Francisco, the tide has truly turned against the die hard Covidians.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493810509610635264


----------



## Grace T.

If even half of this is true, Fauci, the CDC and the FDA beclowned themselves again, for unknown and possibly corrupt motives, with remdesivir









						The Remdesivir Riddle
					

The drug was knowingly deployed in a way that prevented it from being effective. Why?




					doyourownresearch.substack.com


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Ah, did you do your own research?  Are you a free thinker like these Herman Cain Award winning morons?
> 
> Update: this scared and confused woman thought she was a free-thinker. Unfortunately she won’t get a chance to learn a lesson from covid. Her friend narrates her health spiral. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Former co-worker and free thinker learns the hard way… Apparently the only way he knew how to learn, that COVID was more than he expected. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Dale was an anti-mask, anti-vax, “free thinker”, who did his own research up until the end… please don’t be like Dale. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> 10 hours a day, every day, Ticky did her own research & asked the hard questions. Flagged C-19 as a concern in early Feb 2020. Shared her research results. Real world application of said research resulted in her recent death. Oh, not a fan of the vax, either. [missed redacts] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Blue loved Kyle Rittenhouse, Trump, Candace Owens and online Solitaire. Blue hated Biden, gas prices, vaccines, and critical thinking. HCA pending officially but she's on her way out. Shit posting to the very end. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)


i see the relevance…but anyway. I got Covid,actually the whole family got Covid. You want to know the worst part…I had a sore throat for a couple days. So you keep injecting yourself and let’s talk again in 20years and then let me know how you feel. Because for someone who takes care of themselves, doesn’t eat the chili fries, and under 50 you have a very very minimal chance of getting hospitalized or dying from Covid. 
Thats not research that is facts


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, you're whining about vaccines and masks on a youth soccer board.  I would not call that trying to fix the problem. I would call that whining like a little baby.


Dang, when you know you are wrong you just go straight to the insults and belittling…wow, that’s next level…it’s alright to admit when you are wrong…and thank you for trying to fix the problem, but realize your uneducated rhetoric is actually making it worse


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, let's do the same for anti-vaxxers/maskers!  When they start begging for horse paste at the hospital door, tell those shits they're on their own. And for those douches who already got their ICU stays and vents and survived, make them go back and pay 100% of the actual costs, instead of spreading it across other insureds who don't define "freedom" as an excuse to hurt other people.


You are on the right track…next make sure you protest alcohol sales and fast food restaurants because that will kill way more people than Covid ever will…maybe then go to Netflix, because I’m sure that has caused more than a fair share of people stop exercising so they can binge watch some stupid reality show???
I’m sure you have some ridiculous reason why that is different though???


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If they've lost San Francisco, the tide has truly turned against the die hard Covidians.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493810509610635264


Covid containment measures are still popular in SF.  

The recall was more about PC politicians who weren’t thinking about the job they ran for.  They were wasting time renaming schools instead of thinking about how to open them.  Had they been pushing for HEPA filters and N95 masks in all classrooms, they’d still be in office.


----------



## crush

Freedom Convoy Supporter: Nobody Should "Suffer," be "Stigmatized" for a Personal Decision
					

Governmental coronavirus vaccine mandates make people “suffer from isolation,” Wayne, a demonstrator supporting the Freedom Convoy in Ottawa, ON, told Breitbart News on Saturday.




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Covid containment measures are still popular in SF.
> 
> The recall was more about PC politicians who weren’t thinking about the job they ran for.  They were wasting time renaming schools instead of thinking about how to open them.  Had they been pushing for HEPA filters and N95 masks in all classrooms, they’d still be in office.


The lefty Democrat Mayor London Breed supported the recalls and will get to name the replacements.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> If even half of this is true, Fauci, the CDC and the FDA beclowned themselves again, for unknown and possibly corrupt motives, with remdesivir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Remdesivir Riddle
> 
> 
> The drug was knowingly deployed in a way that prevented it from being effective. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doyourownresearch.substack.com


Remember that one time that some some people who may or may not have been drs were hammering away at lack of early treatment, early on?  It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.  I wonder if @dad4 contemplates possible saving of life with early treatment.  

Don't fret though, pharma is the savior.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Remember that one time that some some people who may or may not have been drs were hammering away at lack of early treatment, early on?  It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.  I wonder if @dad4 contemplates possible saving of life with early treatment.
> 
> Don't fret though, pharma is the savior.


That's why I cut out meat two years ago and only eat gluten free and organic.  I was getting prepared for this battle and so many laughed at me.  Do you have any idea what these crazies pump into the cows that are cloned?  Clone chicken sandwich and now Gates and his pals are making, "beyond meat."  I would not eat any of that stuff.  Beyond meat is insane!!!  Metaverse wants you all in with their way of life.  It's all about the social score.  I already dealt with credit score BS, now they want to score how you obey.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> It really is a problem if the few sites that most people communicate on regularly ban conservative opinions.
> 
> Part of it is the ownership is generally liberal. The other problem are calls by Dem politicians to crack down on misinformation...aka other viewpoints.


I don't agree with censorship, although that's not blanket as certain things, hate speech being an obvious one, should never be countenanced.

That said, these sites are designed to engage & retain users, allowing you to follow who you want and then presenting back to you like minded content / opinions. Given the various things posted on here, people are not having any difficulty finding people/opinions that they agree with, whether those opinions are accurate or not.

They are also public companies, i.e. the ownership. The leadership & the employees may allegedly be "liberal", but the ownership are the shareholders, who can get rid of the leadership if they don't perform. The company purpose is to deliver value for the shareholders. If policy decisions run counter to that and impact the bottom line, then the leadership will be in trouble.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> I don't agree with censorship, although that's not blanket as certain things, hate speech being an obvious one, should never be countenanced.
> 
> That said, these sites are designed to engage & retain users, allowing you to follow who you want and then presenting back to you like minded content / opinions. Given the various things posted on here, people are not having any difficulty finding people/opinions that they agree with, whether those opinions are accurate or not.
> 
> They are also public companies, i.e. the ownership. The leadership & the employees may allegedly be "liberal", but the ownership are the shareholders, who can get rid of the leadership if they don't perform. The company purpose is to deliver value for the shareholders. If policy decisions run counter to that and impact the bottom line, then the leadership will be in trouble.


Just wanted to say whatithink is a perfect moniker for an opinion site. I wish everyone in here realized that most all the content in these forums are what they think and things they pull from the internet that agree with that opinion.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just wanted to say whatithink is a perfect moniker for an opinion site. I wish everyone in here realized that most all the content in these forums are what they think and things they pull from the internet that agree with that opinion.


Just wanted to say I love you


----------



## crush

Kids win, no more mask!!









						LOVE MY BEAUTIFUL OAKRIDGE HIGH SCHOOL HEROES WALKING OUT AGAINST MASK MANDATES IN CALI!!! LET'S GO!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I don't agree with censorship, although that's not blanket as certain things, hate speech being an obvious one, should never be countenanced.
> 
> That said, these sites are designed to engage & retain users, allowing you to follow who you want and then presenting back to you like minded content / opinions. Given the various things posted on here, people are not having any difficulty finding people/opinions that they agree with, whether those opinions are accurate or not.
> 
> They are also public companies, i.e. the ownership. The leadership & the employees may allegedly be "liberal", but the ownership are the shareholders, who can get rid of the leadership if they don't perform. The company purpose is to deliver value for the shareholders. If policy decisions run counter to that and impact the bottom line, then the leadership will be in trouble.


The end result though is like media we will have conservative and liberal social media in the future for the very reason you outline.  I don't quite think people like Ben Shapiro are right and it means different movies, sports, shoe brands, or even fast food, but Seinfeld was prescient with the Poppy episode....conservatives might lean In N Out and Chick Fillet, for example.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The end result though is like media we will have conservative and liberal social media in the future for the very reason you outline.  I don't quite think people like Ben Shapiro are right and it means different movies, sports, shoe brands, or even fast food, but Seinfeld was prescient with the Poppy episode....conservatives might lean In N Out and Chick Fillet, for example.


'We cannot give the people the right to choose any toppings they want" -- Poppie

Is it pizza when it comes out of the oven, or when you first put your fist in the dough?


----------



## Jar!23

The San Francisco school board recall effort and result is from a mix of different things.  Some frustration was from keeping schools closed.  Some from the school re-naming effort.  Most of the anger was from the effort to change admissions criteria to Lowell High School (which is a test based) and Collins’ old tweets about Asian Americans.  Asian Americans, especially Chinese, turned out to vote on this issue because it involves  education and their kids.  Many Asian American parents would have been ok with the school closures and other mitigation measures.  But they are not ok with policies that attack and take away opportunities for their children simply because they are high achieving.  The tide is turning or had turned on the left regarding “equity” and the various policies that try to socially engineer equal outcomes.  It just doesn’t work.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> 'We cannot give the people the right to choose any toppings they want" -- Poppie
> 
> Is it pizza when it comes out of the oven, or when you first put your fist in the dough?



You are a sick man.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> The end result though is like media we will have conservative and liberal social media in the future for the very reason you outline.  I don't quite think people like Ben Shapiro are right and it means different movies, sports, shoe brands, or even fast food, but Seinfeld was prescient with the Poppy episode....conservatives might lean In N Out and Chick Fillet, for example.


I always figured that politics is pretty niche on social media, important to a small number of users and probably not that consequential to the bottom line. That's not to say that politicians or commentators don't use them, but they are just a small part, from a revenue perspective, to those businesses.

Take T's venture, is that really looking to attract enough unique users from Facebook/Twitter or just appeal to a very small niche crowd? Twitter has something close to 200M daily users (& loses money), Facebook has nearly 2B. What are they going to lose to truthsocial? Are they even going to lose all those, i.e. will those people still go on the other platforms to then jump back and vent in an echo chamber? Facebook gives zero Fs about truthsocial, but TikTok has them scared. Google (youtube) likewise gives zero Fs. Twitter are probably interested but maybe lose <1% of their users, if even.

Censorship is not good on social mediums, but echo chambers for singular right/left viewpoints are probably worse.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> I always figured that politics is pretty niche on social media, important to a small number of users and probably not that consequential to the bottom line. That's not to say that politicians or commentators don't use them, but they are just a small part, from a revenue perspective, to those businesses.
> 
> Take T's venture, is that really looking to attract enough unique users from Facebook/Twitter or just appeal to a very small niche crowd? Twitter has something close to 200M daily users (& loses money), Facebook has nearly 2B. What are they going to lose to truthsocial? Are they even going to lose all those, i.e. will those people still go on the other platforms to then jump back and vent in an echo chamber? Facebook gives zero Fs about truthsocial, but TikTok has them scared. Google (youtube) likewise gives zero Fs. Twitter are probably interested but maybe lose <1% of their users, if even.
> 
> Censorship is not good on social mediums, but echo chambers for singular right/left viewpoints are probably worse.


I disagree on twitter.  All it takes is someone like a Ben Shapiro (who has long advocated for building up separate traunches for conservatives) to move and twitter will lose its conservative content en masse.  Twitter is largely a political and cultural war cesspool anyways...people aren't there largely to follow their latest star wars news or cooking contest.  The character limit makes it mostly useful to link to other sources and to get news/propaganda.

I agree with things like facebook and instagram which aren't necessarily political.  The grandparents who are chatting about their favorite quilting b could care less.  The social media influencers chatting about how they are riding a private jet to the latest beach concert in the bahamas don't care about the censorship either.


----------



## thirteenknots

whatithink said:


> I always figured that politics is pretty niche on social media, important to a small number of users and probably not that consequential to the bottom line. That's not to say that politicians or commentators don't use them, but they are just a small part, from a revenue perspective, to those businesses.
> 
> Take T's venture, is that really looking to attract enough unique users from Facebook/Twitter or just appeal to a very small niche crowd? Twitter has something close to 200M daily users (& loses money), Facebook has nearly 2B. What are they going to lose to truthsocial? Are they even going to lose all those, i.e. will those people still go on the other platforms to then jump back and vent in an echo chamber? Facebook gives zero Fs about truthsocial, but TikTok has them scared. Google (youtube) likewise gives zero Fs. Twitter are probably interested but maybe lose <1% of their users, if even.
> 
> Censorship is not good on social mediums, but echo chambers for singular right/left viewpoints are probably worse.


Trying to call the game before it's even started is rather foolish to put it nicely.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

whatithink said:


> Censorship is not good on social mediums, but echo chambers for singular right/left viewpoints are probably worse.


No.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> I disagree on twitter.  All it takes is someone like a Ben Shapiro (who has long advocated for building up separate traunches for conservatives) to move and twitter will lose its conservative content en masse.  Twitter is largely a political and cultural war cesspool anyways...people aren't there largely to follow their latest star wars news or cooking contest.  The character limit makes it mostly useful to link to other sources and to get news/propaganda.
> 
> I agree with things like facebook and instagram which aren't necessarily political.  The grandparents who are chatting about their favorite quilting b could care less.  The social media influencers chatting about how they are riding a private jet to the latest beach concert in the bahamas don't care about the censorship either.


There may be a "a political and cultural war" going on, on Twitter, but that could also be a small subset of Twitter.

Some interesting Twitter stuff. 

• Twitter by the Numbers (2022): Stats, Demographics & Fun Facts (omnicoreagency.com)


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> There may be a "a political and cultural war" going on, on Twitter, but that could also be a small subset of Twitter.
> 
> Some interesting Twitter stuff.
> 
> • Twitter by the Numbers (2022): Stats, Demographics & Fun Facts (omnicoreagency.com)


Sounds pretty niche. I am one of those who has never gone on Twitter. Just shows that in a bubble some things can be seen as far more consequential than what the rest of us see.


----------



## Grace T.

Situation is turning grim in Hong Kong.  Chinese demands for COVID zero are colliding with a mandatory hospitalization policy and a leaky Chinese vaccine.









						Hong Kong is sticking to zero-Covid, no matter what the cost | CNN
					

The Asian financial hub is committed to keeping Covid cases at zero, despite contending with a runaway outbreak.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds pretty niche. I am one of those who has never gone on Twitter. Just shows that in a bubble some things can be seen as far more consequential than what the rest of us see.



I'll bet you are somewhere deep in this account's comments.

numerogroup on Twitter: "Hüsker Dü, January 19, 1983 @ Studio 29, Austin, TX (by Bill Daniel). And yeah, we're announcing something massive soon. https://t.co/yzeF1ZxlnV" / Twitter


----------



## whatithink

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds pretty niche. I am one of those who has never gone on Twitter. Just shows that in a bubble some things can be seen as far more consequential than what the rest of us see.


I have a Twitter account, but don't use it that much, and never for politics. The stats (linked) say 80% of Twitter users are millennials, which doesn't strike me as a group that is collectively engaged in political/culture wars, but I could be wrong or the stats could be wrong.


----------



## thirteenknots

We went from 15 days to slow the spread” to…...
You’re fired if you don't take the jab …. to….
Your bank accounts are frozen if you protest against us.”

Yet somehow, we are still the conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Grace T.

If true, another example of the public health establishment beclowning itself by acting as bureaucrats instead of practioners concerned with public health.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494035078976004106


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Glad you're feeling well.
> 
> My daughter agrees with you that the school.mask rules are stupid.


Thanks.  Your daughter is a smart lady.

I bet I got it at the HS basketball game.  It was standing room only.


----------



## Grace T.

Hmmm....a sensible thoughtful COVID policy....who woulda thunk such a thing can actually exist?









						The COVID Strategy America Hasn’t Really Tried
					

The clearest way to reduce deaths is to push to vaccinate more of the elderly—yes, still!




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Hmmm....a sensible thoughtful COVID policy....who woulda thunk such a thing can actually exist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID Strategy America Hasn’t Really Tried
> 
> 
> The clearest way to reduce deaths is to push to vaccinate more of the elderly—yes, still!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


I would have to assume that the elderly know they are at the most risk. Those that have not gotten vaxxed have decided not to. That is their right. I would not mandate them to get something they don't want....

...Unless they are moving into or living in assisted living. That would then require a different calculation since they are moving into more or less a group home with lots of people who are at high risk. 

But if they are independent, doing their thing on their own, it is their choice.


----------



## watfly

Jar!23 said:


> The San Francisco school board recall effort and result is from a mix of different things.  Some frustration was from keeping schools closed.  Some from the school re-naming effort.  Most of the anger was from the effort to change admissions criteria to Lowell High School (which is a test based) and Collins’ old tweets about Asian Americans.  Asian Americans, especially Chinese, turned out to vote on this issue because it involves  education and their kids.  Many Asian American parents would have been ok with the school closures and other mitigation measures.  But they are not ok with policies that attack and take away opportunities for their children simply because they are high achieving.  The tide is turning or had turned on the left regarding “equity” and the various policies that try to socially engineer equal outcomes.  It just doesn’t work.


Screwing with kids is a bridge too far for most parents including rational Democrats.  It won't be a red wave for mid terms as much as it will be a parent wave.  The woke agenda crashes and burns when it F's with kids.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Screwing with kids is a bridge too far for most parents including rational Democrats.  It won't be a red wave for mid terms as much as it will be a parent wave.  The woke agenda crashes and burns when it F's with kids.


Is that your shield to raise and stand behind?


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> I would have to assume that the elderly know they are at the most risk. Those that have not gotten vaxxed have decided not to. That is their right. I would not mandate them to get something they don't want....
> 
> ...Unless they are moving into or living in assisted living. That would then require a different calculation since they are moving into more or less a group home with lots of people who are at high risk.
> 
> But if they are independent, doing their thing on their own, it is their choice.


Agree, but as far as mandates go, the soft mandates proposed in the article (including nursing home) are better than most of those being pushed around, including mandating kids and boosting college students.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is that your shield to raise and stand behind?


Im not sure what shield your claiming Im using or need.  But whatever it is, its much better than hiding in fear behind the shield that children are germ infested, snotty nose, dirty creatures.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Im not sure what shield your claiming Im using or need.  But whatever it is, its much better than hiding in fear behind the shield that children are germ infested, snotty nose, dirty creatures.


At least windmills are real . . .


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Im not sure what shield your claiming Im using or need.  But whatever it is, its much better than hiding in fear behind the shield that children are germ infested, snotty nose, dirty creatures.


Who said that?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Who said that?


Husker, but my suspicion is that deep down he doesn't believe it.    I think he just is grasping at straws to support the left's narrative.   There is too much evidence that proves that Covid is not dangerous to children and that the masking and school interruptions are very harmful to kids.  It ain't rocket science.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> Husker, but my suspicion is that deep down he doesn't believe it.    I think he just is grasping at straws to support the left's narrative.   There is too much evidence that proves that Covid is not dangerous to children and that the masking and school interruptions are very harmful to kids.  It ain't rocket science.


The house of cards is on unstable ground. All they have left is to wind you up.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> At least windmills are real . . .


And you are a real blowhard too.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It ain't rocket science.


True but there's a lot of distance between rocket science and bag of hammers.


----------



## thirteenknots

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493719017022013441


----------



## watfly

thirteenknots said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493719017022013441


I knew Trudeau could play a black genie but I didn't know he could also play a Venezuelan dictator.  His range is pretty amazing when you consider he also plays a Canadian dick, although I don't think he is acting that one.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The house of cards is on unstable ground. All they have left is to wind you up.


Forum posters don't wind me up, only people who have the power to implement anti-child policies wind me up.

I actually find insults directed at me entertaining, but even more entertaining is the irony and lack of self awareness.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Forum posters don't wind me up, only people who have the power to implement anti-child policies wind me up.
> 
> I actually find insults directed at me entertaining, but even more entertaining is the irony and lack of self awareness.


I love you man.  I won;t lie, I let many forum posters and fact checkers on here get me pissed off because of all the lying and cheating adults did to me and my kid.  I have never witnessed such bold face lies to a 12 year old girl trying to be her best for her country.  Now we know how these men treat everyone.  Their all the same.  I sure you now see what Trump was up against.  You will soon see the TRUTH!!!  They hate our kids bro.  That is a fact!!!


----------



## crush

Breaking News:  A new variant is out and it causes blood clots and heart issues.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Husker, but my suspicion is that deep down he doesn't believe it.    I think he just is grasping at straws to support the left's narrative.   There is too much evidence that proves that Covid is not dangerous to children and that the masking and school interruptions are very harmful to kids.  It ain't rocket science.


Kids are resilient for the most part. I feel many people that say let children activities go on as normal because they aren’t at risk aren’t being 100% honest in their intentions. Don’t you mean drop all precautions except possibly vaccinations for the elderly? If so just say that, which some have, but doesn’t that ignore many of the other issues involved?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Kids are resilient for the most part. *


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Kids are resilient for the most part. *


What about these kids Husker Du?









						Open your eyes - 6m film - please watch and share to loved ones
					

I cried..... Did you?  https://t.me/disclosurehub/157




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kids are resilient for the most part.


This is the dumbest of the covidian talking points.  We have an entire industry based on people talking about how their parents messed them up growing up.  We know mental health hospitalizations and suicide attempts have had spikes throughout all this. We know that there’s speech delay and learning loss going on. There’s going to be an ongoing price to pay for this in the future.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kids are resilient for the most part. I feel many people that say let children activities go on as normal because they aren’t at risk aren’t being 100% honest in their intentions. Don’t you mean drop all precautions except possibly vaccinations for the elderly? If so just say that, which some have, but doesn’t that ignore many of the other issues involved?


What exactly is your definition of child resiliency? And who exactly gets to determine what a child needs to be resilient against? 

I don't understand the comment "*aren’t being 100% honest in their intentions*".  What does that even mean?  Most parents intention is to do what's best for their children.  Are you a "follow the science kind of person" - the science is clear on children, masking, etc.  That phrase has turned into a tribal chant.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> What exactly is your definition of child resiliency? And who exactly gets to determine what a child needs to be resilient against?
> 
> I don't understand the comment "*aren’t being 100% honest in their intentions*".  What does that even mean?  Most parents intention is to do what's best for their children.  Are you a "follow the science kind of person" - the science is clear on children, masking, etc.  That phrase has turned into a tribal chant.


I guess for the kids sakes, it's all about how resilient one kid can be to the next.  It doesnt matter what the fuck you throw at the kids, all kids are resilient for the most part.  As long as the kid works hard, all should go well for the child.  You can lie and lie and yell and behave naughty and blame it all on the kid.  I guess all kids are the same and have two rich parents who can weather the two year heist of destroying our country.  However, not all kids have rich parents.  My liitle baby girl got robbed of her life the last 5 years from liars and most were from men.  It's so sad.  She stood up to mean men who yelled and lied to little girls trying to play for their country.  One guy fat shamed a girl so bad and she called him out for it, in front of team. I even had coaches and parents telling people my child got arrested.  Can you believe that?  Of course I get the email telling all the parents if we complain then our kid will be punished, blacklisted and blackballed and will not play and US Soccer will find out about how you behave socially.  She will not put up with male superiority complex issues and neither will I.  She can't play soccer in the US unless she rolls up her arm three times, get's fully vaccinated, kneel, kiss political ass and just be yelled at by so many, all just to play soccer.  This is sick and sad.


----------



## Desert Hound

So the head of the CDC indicates the gov still wants masking at schools.

And yet admits they really dont have studies showing masks works. Eh dad? After almost 2 yrs they still don't have studies showing masks work. They do of course pre political covid showing masks dont stop respiratory viruses.

Limitations?

I harp on this a lot. If the CDC, WHO or other governments had studies that showed effectiveness of mask usage we would see/hear about it all the time. And yet 2+ yrs into this we don't. That really tells you all you need to know. 

_"[Walensky] acknowledged the "limitations" of the Arizona study, as well as other studies the CDC has relied upon to inform their guidance, but rejected any near-term changes on masking in schools. "[The studies] all have limitations, and that's important to recognize because we are not randomizing schools," she said. "We have to control for whether there are windows, ventilation, and other activities happening outside of these schools. So all of these studies have limitations."_


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> This is the dumbest of the covidian talking points.  We have an entire industry based on people talking about how their parents messed them up growing up.  We know mental health hospitalizations and suicide attempts have had spikes throughout all this. We know that there’s speech delay and learning loss going on. There’s going to be an ongoing price to pay for this in the future.


Yes, we are not a well society.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, we are not a well society.











						DELETE THE ELITE EYEDROPMEDIA #DeleteTheElite
					

Support the work Thanks! https://www.buymeacoffee.com/EyeDropMedia




					rumble.com


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> What exactly is your definition of child resiliency? And who exactly gets to determine what a child needs to be resilient against?
> 
> I don't understand the comment "*aren’t being 100% honest in their intentions*".  What does that even mean?  Most parents intention is to do what's best for their children.  Are you a "follow the science kind of person" - the science is clear on children, masking, etc.  That phrase has turned into a tribal chant.


Not honest about intentions:

People complain about kid masking because they really want restrictions on adults to go away.

The attempt to co-opt the school board recall is particularly rich.  That recall was led and funded by the Chinese community.  They didn't do it because they hated masks.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *People complain about kid masking because they really want restrictions on adults to go away.*


You are lying and fooled, all in one lie.  People are upset because those who put the mandates together do not follow their own mandates and have ruined so many lives.  Wait until the real math is revealed after the bad guys are out.  It will be insane and you will either cry and say sorry for all your misinformation or you will laugh it off like Husker and Espola.  We have kids who think the mask is keeping them safe. That is also 100% a lie.  You lie all day.  2+2 is not 5, it's 4.  You really need to stop this lying.  I forgive you.  You are either brainwashed or you do the brainwashing.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

Desert Hound said:


> So the head of the CDC indicates the gov still wants masking at schools.
> 
> And yet admits they really dont have studies showing masks works. Eh dad? After almost 2 yrs they still don't have studies showing masks work. They do of course pre political covid showing masks dont stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> Limitations?
> 
> I harp on this a lot. If the CDC, WHO or other governments had studies that showed effectiveness of mask usage we would see/hear about it all the time. And yet 2+ yrs into this we don't. That really tells you all you need to know.
> 
> _"[Walensky] acknowledged the "limitations" of the Arizona study, as well as other studies the CDC has relied upon to inform their guidance, but rejected any near-term changes on masking in schools. "[The studies] all have limitations, and that's important to recognize because we are not randomizing schools," she said. "We have to control for whether there are windows, ventilation, and other activities happening outside of these schools. So all of these studies have limitations."_


As we all know the political science is that teacher unions that keep Democrats feed with campaign donations is the reason behind kids still being masked. We should really try to find out why teachers and their unions continue to push their weight around this and not following true science. Is it a ploy to gain leverage in contract negotiations or are teachers afraid for their health and believe masks help. It is probably a number of things but one thing is clear, teachers and their unions have the Democrats by the throat and are guiding policy that is hurting our kids.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not honest about intentions:
> 
> People complain about kid masking because they really want restrictions on adults to go away.
> 
> The attempt to co-opt the school board recall is particularly rich.  That recall was led and funded by the Chinese community.  They didn't do it because they hated masks.


Sure - abuse goes both ways and I get your cynicism and doubt about adult intentions.

The "follow the science" crowd has zero credibility.  You can say the phrase  over and over, but the science isn't being followed.  Masking for healthy children in schools doesn't hold up.  I could care less about political tribalism until it becomes an impediment.  

I don't know anyone in the SF/Bay Area Chinese community but I am certain the white noise and the impact/disruption on education is a driving factor for their intentions.  

And again, mandatory masking in schools is a bad interpretation of "science".  You want your child masked, have at it.  Don't force others to abide by a rule that benefits a tiny fraction of the population.   Silliness all the way around


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> As we all know the political science is that teacher unions that keep Democrats feed with campaign donations is the reason behind kids still being masked. We should really try to find out why teachers and their unions continue to push their weight around this and not following true science. Is it a ploy to gain leverage in contract negotiations or are teachers afraid for their health and believe masks help. It is probably a number of things but one thing is clear, teachers and their unions have the Democrats by the throat and are guiding policy that is hurting our kids.


“True science”? As determined by whom?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> “True science”? As determined by whom?


By the same people who parrot the idea of the incredible resiliency of children during the pandemic.  Bet?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> By the same people who parrot the idea of the incredible resiliency of children during the pandemic.  Bet?


Or the doctor who said that Bob hit his head and went nigh nigh and died.  The real doctor said based on all his autopsies of people getting hit with a baseball bat to the head, that he most likely got hit by a baseball bat.


----------



## crush

*Great job Maci.  This kid is truly resilient.  *

Teacher: Put your mask on
Maci:  no thank you
Teacher:  Please send in the enforcers
Staff members ((enforcers)): Go to the nurses office
Maci: Ok ((Maci is put in a room all by herself))
Crush to the staff members: How come all the elites did not wear mask at Super Bowl but you force the kids to wear a mask at school?
Staff:  STFU Crush!!!  No one listens to you.....
Staff calls Maci moms:  Come pick up your disobedient and non resilient child from our school
Maci's mommy:  This is outrageous.  These people are nuts
Maci: "Kids should be able to stand up for themselves, too,"
Crush:  100%
Staff:  This is an unexcused absence
Maci: I will write a letter to my Governor


----------



## crush

How will California enforce the latest, "Only those who have been fully jabbed dont have to wear a mask?"  Honor system I'm told.  Can you believe that.  I have to wear mask and if i get caught lying to the honor system, I will be kicked out of store?  This is insane and makes zero sense.  All my educated pals look not very smart right now.  This is what happens to a country when people cheat, steal, spy and lie to win.  This kind of behavior does not care about others.  These people will turn on each other soon.  Look at Mr. Lemon and Chris.  Old pals are turning on each other.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not honest about intentions:
> 
> People complain about kid masking because they really want restrictions on adults to go away.
> 
> The attempt to co-opt the school board recall is particularly rich.  That recall was led and funded by the Chinese community.  They didn't do it because they hated masks.


The kids will be from the sound of what the cdc director was caught saying will be the last restricted

I didn’t know btw San Francisco was 70% Chinese!  Guess that’s how long I’ve been out of the Bay Area.  Learn something new every day.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> The kids will be from the sound of what the cdc director was caught saying will be the last restricted
> 
> I didn’t know btw San Francisco was 70% Chinese!  Guess that’s how long I’ve been out of the Bay Area.  Learn something new every day.


Always amusing how you just make things up to roll with. You love to tell yourself ‘little’ lies.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Sure - abuse goes both ways and I get your cynicism and doubt about adult intentions.
> 
> The "follow the science" crowd has zero credibility.  You can say the phrase  over and over, but the science isn't being followed.  Masking for healthy children in schools doesn't hold up.  I could care less about political tribalism until it becomes an impediment.
> 
> I don't know anyone in the SF/Bay Area Chinese community but I am certain the white noise and the impact/disruption on education is a driving factor for their intentions.
> 
> And again, mandatory masking in schools is a bad interpretation of "science".  You want your child masked, have at it.  Don't force others to abide by a rule that benefits a tiny fraction of the population.   Silliness all the way around


You’re hiding behind kids again.

Masks in schools are a side issue.  Adults needed to step up and do their part, but many of them did not.  As a result, we got two large covid waves driven by anti-mask, anti-vax adults who insisted on going to bars, restaurants, dinner parties, and gyms.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Always amusing how you just make things up to roll with. You love to tell yourself ‘little’ lies.


Not my factoid...it's dad4's.  He's always so informative!

As to the CDC director.....









						In Leaked Audio, CDC’s Rochelle Walensky Privately Confirms She Won’t Relax School Mask Guidance
					

Walensky acknowledged "limitations" of available studies but told a congressional committee "our guidance currently is that masking should happen in all schools."




					reason.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The kids will be from the sound of what the cdc director was caught saying will be the last restricted


The kids will be the last restricted because they can’t complain as loudly.  When an anti-vax adult whines, it literally sounds like a semi-truck horn.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> As we all know the political science is that teacher unions that keep Democrats feed with campaign donations is the reason behind kids still being masked.


Follow the money. Easy, right?

I'm concerned about the future of public education - especially in the big cities. They may be losing teachers faster than they lose students and the students they are losing are likely to be higher performers. Neither trend is good for the division we see in the country.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The kids will be the last restricted because they can’t complain as loudly.  When an anti-vax adult whines, it literally sounds like a semi-truck horn.


No it's because the teacher's union has the Democrats by the throat (which is also why San Francisco was so important....yes it wasn't about the masks...but the teacher's union strangle hold can be broken there it can be broken anywhere).

The other problem is the CDC.  The CDC is saying its up to localities but they aren't changing the guidance.  So the blue check localities get to point their finger at the CDC and the CDC gets to point their finger at the localities.

Teacher's unions, Ds, public health....they are the ones responsible.  It's some first class gaslighting to say the antivaxxers are responsible for how kids are being treated.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You’re hiding behind kids again.
> 
> Masks in schools are a side issue.  Adults needed to step up and do their part, but many of them did not.  As a result, we got two large covid waves driven by anti-mask, anti-vax adults who insisted on going to bars, restaurants, dinner parties, and gyms.


I know, I know, you have a narrative you have to stick to.  Needed is the operative word - you are from the past, arguing about the past.  Left up to you, kids would continue to be masked...I get it..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Not my factoid...it's dad4's.  He's always so informative!
> 
> As to the CDC director.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Leaked Audio, CDC’s Rochelle Walensky Privately Confirms She Won’t Relax School Mask Guidance
> 
> 
> Walensky acknowledged "limitations" of available studies but told a congressional committee "our guidance currently is that masking should happen in all schools."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reason.com


I meant the “70%” thing, but you knew that, or should have.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> When an anti-vax adult whines, it literally sounds like a semi-truck horn.


Evidently, that is all you are capable of hearing. Your willingness to promote authoritarianism and dismiss anything else as insignificant as long as it is accompanied by mask restrictions for adults and forced vaccinations is astoundingly myopic given the state our country is in right now. Wake the fuck up!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No it's because the teacher's union has the Democrats by the throat (which is also why San Francisco was so important....yes it wasn't about the masks...but the teacher's union strangle hold can be broken there it can be broken anywhere).
> 
> The other problem is the CDC.  The CDC is saying its up to localities but they aren't changing the guidance.  So the blue check localities get to point their finger at the CDC and the CDC gets to point their finger at the localities.
> 
> Teacher's unions, Ds, public health....they are the ones responsible.  It's some first class gaslighting to say the antivaxxers are responsible for how kids are being treated.


Gee bubble logic, where have I heard that kinda attempted confirmation logic before Ms. Kettle? Takes one to see one . . . or we all see the world through the prism of our own personal experience, once again. “Conspiracy everywhere!”


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I meant the “70%” thing, but you knew that, or should have.


Yeah, again, that's a dad4 factoid.  He's so informative!


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Gee bubble logic, where have I heard that kinda attempted confirmation logic before Ms. Kettle? Takes one to see one . . . or we all see the world through the prism of our own personal experience, once again. “Conspiracy everywhere!”


Conspiracy theories no....it's basic political realities right now....talk about bubble logic....you bubbleheads can't even see what's going on right in front of your nose....again, as I've told dad4 before, because you guys like to see the world as you want it to be, instead of how it really is.....it's why your utopian pipe dreams always come crashing down.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Conspiracy theories no....it's basic political realities right now....talk about bubble logic....you bubbleheads can't even see what's going on right in front of your nose....again, as I've told dad4 before, because you guys like to see the world as you want it to be, instead of how it really is.....it's why your utopian pipe dreams always come crashing down.


We aren’t the ones bitching about how badly the children are being treated.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> We aren’t the ones bitching about how badly the children are being treated.


No you've just got the Covidians and the teachers bitching about how you all are going to be infected by the germ bucket children unless we all run around in our N95s


----------



## Desert Hound

_GLIMMERS OF SANITY: Top L.A. Democrat: We’re beginning to lose the trust of the people by keeping our mask mandate in place.
_


> _
> Hahn couldn’t help noticing that the county’s mask mandate was ignored by, uh, pretty much everyone at the Super Bowl held in L.A. this Sunday. So she’s been thinking.
> And where her thoughts have led her is to the thankless position below. The COVID hawks to her left will spaz out and call her the Grim Reaper for “surrendering” to the Trumpist demand to drop precautions while the COVID doves to her right are destined to sneer, “Beginning to lose the trust of the people?”
> Baby steps, though, right? An influential L.A. pol tilting against masks is a nice sign of progress towards post-pandemic normalcy._


_

But she’ll still have to *face the wrath of the Mask Karens (aka dad and others),* who need some serious pushback and mockery.


The Chinese Olympics that nobody is watching feature athletes getting served by people in hazmat suits. Meanwhile, SoFi stadium gathered over 70,000 fans for the big game, and the cameras panning the vast crowd showed *the spectators to be almost entirely maskless*.

*This was the end of the pandemic in the United States — or at least the primary signal that, as a culture, we are ready for the end…*_

Are you paying attention dad?
_
That a football game could “end” a pandemic may seem absurd — what does it have to do with the spread, with the facts of the disease and the latest variants, or with the rate of vaccine uptake? But cultures never make sense as pure calculations about inputs and outputs. *Ultimately, we make a collective cultural decision about whether we are in a state of emergency or not.* A big, raucous crowd of unmasked fans at a football game in America is normal. *Broadcasting that game — and studiously refusing to reference or mention the pandemic — is a giant flashing sign. You probably have moved on or are about to move on. We’re moving on, too.*_


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Evidently, that is all you are capable of hearing. Your willingness to promote authoritarianism and dismiss anything else as insignificant as long as it is accompanied by mask restrictions for adults and forced vaccinations is astoundingly myopic given the state our country is in right now. Wake the fuck up!


I am quite awake and clear eyed.  The anti-vax adults have given us two covid waves at this point.  Enough is enough.

The individual right to decline medication does not imply a right to head down to the local bar and spread disease.  Someone wants to be unvaccinated at home or outdoors?  No problem.

But if that person wants to hang out indoors with large numbers of other people, then they need to respect the health of those other people- even the ones who are on immunosuppressants.  Based on what we know so far, that means getting a vaccine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No you've just got the Covidians and the teachers bitching about how you all are going to be infected by the germ bucket children unless we all run around in our N95s


I see reality is far too harsh of a pill for you to swallow.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> This is the dumbest of the covidian talking points.  We have an entire industry based on people talking about how their parents messed them up growing up.  We know mental health hospitalizations and suicide attempts have had spikes throughout all this. We know that there’s speech delay and learning loss going on. There’s going to be an ongoing price to pay for this in the future.


That's what's great about Husker, he always says something to prove our point.  "Kids are resilient" is the grasping at straws to support the left's narrative that I mentioned before.  Another case of lack of self awareness.

I do hope that kids are resilient and the Covid restrictions just become a vague memory.  Unfortunately, for some kids its already too late.



dad4 said:


> Not honest about intentions:
> 
> People complain about kid masking because they really want restrictions on adults to go away.
> 
> The attempt to co-opt the school board recall is particularly rich.  That recall was led and funded by the Chinese community.  They didn't do it because they hated masks.


That's a comical rationalization and facts not in evidence.  If that were true we wouldn't see parents screaming even louder now to unmask kids, now that adults don't have to wear a mask.  I've said many times, mask adults, whatever.  I'd happily wear a mask in public indoors if we dropped the mask mandates on kids.  The fact that you have to mischaracterize someone else's argument to make your argument more plausible is more evidence of how weak your position is.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I see reality is far too harsh of a pill for you to swallow.


You are getting really good at the gaslighting since the entire red pill/blue pill thing is ours and has been since 2020

"Tu Salute, Don Corleone!"


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> That's what's great about Husker, he always says something to prove our point.  "Kids are resilient" is the grasping at straws to support the left's narrative that I mentioned before.  Another case of lack of self awareness.


He's just trolling for chuckles, not trying to actually make any point really.  It's what they do.  The gaslighting is exhibit A.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The anti-vax adults have given us two covid waves at this point. Enough is enough.


The waves are not because of the anti vax crowd. You are delusional. 

The waves went through every country and looked about the same regardless of how highly vaxxed their population was or wasn't. 

You live in fantasy land about covid zero, the spread, etc.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The individual right to decline medication does not imply a right to head down to the local bar and spread disease


Sorry pal. 

People go out all the time with various viruses/disease. Flu being one of them. 

What we do and will do with covid is just live with at as part of our daily lives. 

We will not and the world will not continue to do the silly things we have done for the past 2 yrs much longer. 

What you keep advocating is zero covid.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The anti-vax adults have given us two covid waves at this point.  Enough is enough.


_"A bogeyman is someone whose ideas or actions are disapproved of by some people, and who is described by them as evil or unpleasant in order to make other people afraid."_


----------



## Grace T.

There's been a lot of speculation that the reason Canada is happening is because Trudeau inherited some authoritarian genes from his father Fidel Castro.  It's been waived off as a conspiracy theory....I'm not so sure anymore.....









						Deep Dive: Is Fidel Castro the Father of Justin Trudeau?
					

Look at the evidence and decide for yourself




					gummibear737.substack.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> There's been a lot of speculation that the reason Canada is happening is because Trudeau inherited some authoritarian genes from his father Fidel Castro.  It's been waived off as a conspiracy theory....I'm not so sure anymore.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deep Dive: Is Fidel Castro the Father of Justin Trudeau?
> 
> 
> Look at the evidence and decide for yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gummibear737.substack.com


What does "Canada is happening" mean to you?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> What does "Canada is happening" mean to you?


It’s awful. People are getting their vehicles towed for parking illegally.

More proof that Canada has gone over to the dark side.  They even made it illegal to blast air horns at 3 am in residential neighborhoods.  

At least here in America, I can still put on a Viking helmet and sack the Capitol building.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Follow the money. Easy, right?
> 
> I'm concerned about the future of public education - especially in the big cities. They may be losing teachers faster than they lose students and the students they are losing are likely to be higher performers. Neither trend is good for the division we see in the country.


My pal's wife just quit her teaching job and is taking a sick leave for emotional stress and "I can't teach in this shit anymore."  You still have psycho's who want their kid masked and the whole school sprayed down with Lysol every 10 minutes.  Then you have crazy parents like me who refuse the jabs.  Then you have parents who sit on the fence and pull their kid and into private or super rad charter school.  Most single parents have to sent thier kid to crazy school.  How on earth could a parent send their little one to any school?  My baby is 18 and can do as she please.  I would have ripped my mask off already and said, "This is insane.  I will not wear a mask."


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> What does "Canada is happening" mean to you?


Yawn...Husker really is passing you in the troll rankings.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It’s awful. People are getting their vehicles towed for parking illegally.
> 
> More proof that Canada has gone over to the dark side.  They even made it illegal to blast air horns at 3 am in residential neighborhoods.
> 
> At least here in America, I can still put on a Viking helmet and sack the Capitol building.


I dunno man....the seizing bank accounts thing was pretty norm busting, Trudeau has the police force out now and neither side (Trudeau's retreat in the polls and the chilly reception from his side of Parliament notwithstanding) seems to be willing to back down.  Too early to predict things but you'll recall when BLM started it was just "peaceful protests", at least at first, and the Capitol building was just Trump crying the election had been stolen.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> We aren’t the ones bitching about how badly the children are being treated.


"We aren’t the ones bitching about how badly the children are being treated." - HUSKER DU - 2.17.22


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I am quite awake and clear eyed.  The anti-vax adults have given us two covid waves at this point.  Enough is enough.
> 
> The individual right to decline medication does not imply a right to head down to the local bar and spread disease.  Someone wants to be unvaccinated at home or outdoors?  No problem.
> 
> But if that person wants to hang out indoors with large numbers of other people, then they need to respect the health of those other people- even the ones who are on immunosuppressants.  Based on what we know so far, that means getting a vaccine.


Wait, I thought  virus mutation gave us additional waves, with another likely coming.   I guess we didn't know enough after the initial 2 week lockdown to be conversant on transmission and mutation.  

Maybe it was actually people like you who caused "waves".  Good thing you aren't in public health.  It requires more than mandates.  Funny how the very tribe that was anti-vaccine transformed to pro vaccine over night without providing data to explain their miraculous  transformation.  But keep pointing fingers.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> "We aren’t the ones bitching about how badly the children are being treated." - HUSKER DU - 2.17.22


I spoke to Husker Du type Doc and a few higher ups and they all told me to stop complaining about how the girls were being treated, especially my baby girl.  If a coach says to a player, "The more I yell at you, is the more I love you" that would be a yellow card.  That could be coach speak, but yelling at 12 and 13 year olds looking to play for your country is wrong.  This guy and Espola are the same types of coaches and evaluators of female soccer players.  They stopped talking to me.  They only use GG to speak to me because.  These guys have treated females really bad.  I think they got hurt as young boys and have issues with Mother.  You guys need a big spanking and a lesson to love kids.  Pathetic and why youth soccer got destroyed and toxic in socal.  You better obey "The Man" or else.  These men hate women and kids.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I dunno man....the seizing bank accounts thing was pretty norm busting, Trudeau has the police force out now and neither side (Trudeau's retreat in the polls and the chilly reception from his side of Parliament notwithstanding) seems to be willing to back down.  Too early to predict things but you'll recall when BLM started it was just "peaceful protests", at least at first, and the Capitol building was just Trump crying the election had been stolen.


I'm thinking that Canada and the US need to start freezing the accounts of baseball players.  The fact that the players are striking is causing untold millions of dollars in damages to local communities.   Think of the towns that rely just on spring training not to mention regular season for the bigger cities.  These guys are striking because they don't want their already exorbitant salaries capped.  Shed me a freaking tear.  At least the truckers are fighting for something noble (or what used to be considered noble, before the left became the party of authoritarianism).  Of course, that will never happen since the politicians are the biggest jock sniffers of all (see Super Bowl).


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> *Wait, I thought  virus mutation gave us additional waves, with another likely coming.*   I guess we didn't know enough after the initial 2 week lockdown to be conversant on transmission and mutation.
> 
> Maybe it was actually people like you who caused "waves".  Good thing you aren't in public health.  It requires more than mandates.  Funny how the very tribe that was anti-vaccine transformed to pro vaccine over night without providing data to explain their miraculous  transformation.  But keep pointing fingers.


Your claim is that, beause the mutation had a role in causing the Delta wave, then human actions must not have played a role.

It’s not even a good single cause fallacy.  I can grant you the false claim that mutations are the only problem, and point out that the mutation rate is driven by cases.  It still comes back to people adopting pro-covid behavior.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your claim is that, beause the mutation had a role in causing the Delta wave, then human actions must not have played a role.
> 
> It’s not even a good single cause fallacy.  I can grant you the false claim that mutations are the only problem, and point out that the mutation rate is driven by cases.  It still comes back to people adopting pro-covid behavior.


The Delta wave was started in India.  I'm not sure how human actions here played into that other than the first world hoarding vaccines.  You can argue human behavior (such as vaccination) can slow the mutation rate, but given triple vaxxed and prior natural immunity people are coming down with omicron (like Prince Charles), it's not going to stop mutations (particularly given the number of zoonotic reserves we now have).


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> I spoke to Husker Du type Doc and a few higher ups and they all told me to stop complaining about how the girls were being treated, especially my baby girl.  If a coach says to a player, "The more I yell at you, is the more I love you" that would be a yellow card.  That could be coach speak, but yelling at 12 and 13 year olds looking to play for your country is wrong.  This guy and Espola are the same types of coaches and evaluators of female soccer players.  They stopped talking to me.  They only use GG to speak to me because.  These guys have treated females really bad.  I think they got hurt as young boys and have issues with Mother.  You guys need a big spanking and a lesson to love kids.  Pathetic and why youth soccer got destroyed and toxic in socal.  You better obey "The Man" or else.  These men hate women and kids.


You're quite a feminist making your wife and daughter bring in 100% of the family income while you refuse to work.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That's what's great about Husker, he always says something to prove our point.  "Kids are resilient" is the grasping at straws to support the left's narrative that I mentioned before.  Another case of lack of self awareness.
> 
> I do hope that kids are resilient and the Covid restrictions just become a vague memory.  Unfortunately, for some kids its already too late.
> 
> 
> That's a comical rationalization and facts not in evidence.  If that were true we wouldn't see parents screaming even louder now to unmask kids, now that adults don't have to wear a mask.  I've said many times, mask adults, whatever.  I'd happily wear a mask in public indoors if we dropped the mask mandates on kids.  The fact that you have to mischaracterize someone else's argument to make your argument more plausible is more evidence of how weak your position is.


I guess you missed that the “kids are resilient” was me agreeing with you . . . girls will be girls.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> You're quite a feminist making your wife and daughter bring in 100% of the family income while you refuse to work.


Wow, we finally meet again.  I told you this would all go sideways if you treat little 12 year old girls like you did.  Shame on you.  I forgive you and so does my wife.  My Cheetah is still learning about the reality of how some men treat young women.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> My pal's wife just quit her teaching job and is taking a sick leave for emotional stress and "I can't teach in this shit anymore."  You still have psycho's who want their kid masked and the whole school sprayed down with Lysol every 10 minutes.  Then you have crazy parents like me who refuse the jabs.  Then you have parents who sit on the fence and pull their kid and into private or super rad charter school.  Most single parents have to sent thier kid to crazy school.  How on earth could a parent send their little one to any school?  My baby is 18 and can do as she please.  I would have ripped my mask off already and said, "This is insane.  I will not wear a mask."


As the division widens, each side gets more extreme, more authoritarian, and more confrontational.


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Your claim is that, beause the mutation had a role in causing the Delta wave, then human actions must not have played a role.
> 
> It’s not even a good single cause fallacy.  I can grant you the false claim that mutations are the only problem, and point out that the mutation rate is driven by cases.  It still comes back to people adopting pro-covid behavior.


Isn't it funny how you quickly shut down my linear assessment of your statements and claim nuance but immedietedly revert to linear.  

There are plenty of reasons for the pandemic waves.  There were plenty of tools in the kitbag available to minimize death.  There was also plenty of human tribal behavior that become an obstacle to pandemic management.  Always takes people dying to drive consensus. Not one specific thing was going to work - novel viruses tend to be difficult to understand/manage.  This one in particular is a doozy.  One thing is certainly a constant though, $$ made by pharma - EUAs are a thing of beauty.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I am quite awake and clear eyed.  The anti-vax adults have given us two covid waves at this point.  Enough is enough.
> 
> The individual right to decline medication does not imply a right to head down to the local bar and spread disease.  Someone wants to be unvaccinated at home or outdoors?  No problem.
> 
> But if that person wants to hang out indoors with large numbers of other people, then they need to respect the health of those other people- even the ones who are on immunosuppressants.  Based on what we know so far, that means getting a vaccine.


That is pretty selfish of you!! So what makes those that want to get vaccinated more worthy than those that don't want to? Why don't those that don't want to get sick just stay indoors and never go out, that way they will never get sick. Problem solved.  It can work both ways


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I dunno man....the seizing bank accounts thing was pretty norm busting, Trudeau has the police force out now and neither side (Trudeau's retreat in the polls and the chilly reception from his side of Parliament notwithstanding) seems to be willing to back down.  Too early to predict things but you'll recall when BLM started it was just "peaceful protests", at least at first, and the Capitol building was just Trump crying the election had been stolen.


Canadians are overwhelmingly in opposition to the infantile actions of a few selfish truckers.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yawn...Husker really is passing you in the troll rankings.


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


Yawn.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


You know how they are, their lack of accountability and all.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Yawn.


Back when this "vaccine" thread started you were interesting and informative, even when you were wrong about some point.  Lately, you have reverted to little more than a Fox News echo.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Back when this "vaccine" thread started you were interesting and informative, even when you were wrong about some point.  Lately, you have reverted to little more than a Fox News echo.


You are just mad he's doing it better than you right now.



Hüsker Dü said:


> You know how they are, their lack of accountability and all.


See...better than espola.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Canadians are overwhelmingly in opposition to the infantile actions of a few selfish truckers.


It’s not even popular among truckers anymore.

The main trucking unions there are opposed to the convoy.  It makes them look bad.

When the Teamsters accuse you of ruining their image, you know you’re not a popular guy.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> Canadians are overwhelmingly in opposition to the infantile actions of a few selfish truckers.











						Two-thirds of Canadians support use of Emergencies Act and want Freedom Convoy cleared out: poll
					

But at the same time, 54 per cent of Canadians say they are 'ashamed' of how politicians have let the Freedom Convoy protests get out of hand




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Grace T.

/





espola said:


> Two-thirds of Canadians support use of Emergencies Act and want Freedom Convoy cleared out: poll
> 
> 
> But at the same time, 54 per cent of Canadians say they are 'ashamed' of how politicians have let the Freedom Convoy protests get out of hand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


This a week ago and is before all the police hugging, bank seizing and the bottom falling out of Trudeau in parliament.  The truckers have the 1/3 team reality base (skews also very much younger).  Trudeau has another 1/3 firmly in his pocket (skews very much older).  How that middle 1/3 will break (which has always been the deciding factor throughout all this) especially when things begin to turn nastier is anyone's guess...the events themselves will influence opinion (kid get caught in it for example bad for Trudeau, seizure of parliament/riots building bad for the truckers).  So far, both sides have just been torching themselves with regular folks, who want their groceries....it may pull the truckers down but if Trudeau goes down with them the truckers still win....the truckers only need to pull Trudeau down....Trudeau has to pull the truckers down and do it in a way that keeps his popularity above water....it's asymmetrical (waive to my friend)



			https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/nearly-half-say-they-may-not-agree-with-trucker-convoy


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> /
> This a week ago and is before all the police hugging, bank seizing and the bottom falling out of Trudeau in parliament.  The truckers have the 1/3 team reality base (skews also very much younger).  Trudeau has another 1/3 firmly in his pocket (skews very much older).  How that middle 1/3 will break (which has always been the deciding factor throughout all this) especially when things begin to turn nastier is anyone's guess...the events themselves will influence opinion (kid get caught in it for example bad for Trudeau, seizure of parliament/riots building bad for the truckers).  So far, both sides have just been torching themselves with regular folks, who want their groceries....it may pull the truckers down but if Trudeau goes down with them the truckers still win....the truckers only need to pull Trudeau down....Trudeau has to pull the truckers down and do it in a way that keeps his popularity above water....it's asymmetrical (waive to my friend)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/nearly-half-say-they-may-not-agree-with-trucker-convoy


"...poll conducted between February 8-9, 2022,..."


----------



## Grace T.

One of the best essays I've read since the pandemic started.  Why masking went wrong, how the technocrats got themselves pinned into a corner, and how science was misused in the name of politics.  It's called the "Mask Debacle" and they are 100 right on this (they also, BTW, totally have dad4's number)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494322455090921478


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Canadians are overwhelmingly in opposition to the infantile actions of a few selfish truckers.


And how does that matter?  Weren't most people opposed to BLM/ANTIFA infantile actions?  They still happened and where championed by many mainstream bobbleheads.  Mostly peaceful is a thing right?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When the Teamsters accuse you of ruining their image, you know you’re not a popular guy.


You mean when the leadership of the teamsters who are in bed with politicians bitch...you know they don't represent their members.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> View attachment 12950


Ah, did a Taliban or lazy Mexican sneak across the border and murder your mom by giving her Covid?  BTW, can you explain to me why it is that you're so consistently anti-vax, yet here you are posting a meme blaming unvaxxed immigrants for killing Americans by spreading Covid?  This is pretty much the most obvious example of racism and xenophobia that I've seen yet.

It is truly remarkable how consistently paranoid and racist anti-vaxxers like you tend to be.  Here are a few who share, I mean shared, your opinion before they died. 

Scott needed to worry a bit less about immigrants at the border and a bit more about protecting his health in a pandemic. Now he’s got his award.  : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
(Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
I've Spared Us the Usual Anti-Biden, Anti-Immigrant, Poor People Hating Rubbish. Brown (Anti-Vax Boomer) Brought Home to Die. He Was Shown More Compassion Than He Would Have Apparently Shown People with Car Trouble. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Meet "Johhny Mustang." "Johnny" hated BLM, Antifa, immigrants, masks, vaccines, the unemployed, and the liberals. He loved Trump, cars, guns, and CHRIST! Now Johnny has "angel wings" without RedBull. He also has a GoFundMe account and MANY recently deleted FB posts. [Repost w/ redactions] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Anti-vaxxer blames Covid spread on unvaccinated immigrants, claimed by Covid. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Meet Betty. Doesn’t like immigrants. Doesn’t believe in the vax. Thinks “lazy people” don’t deserve help while bragging about social security. Just an all around hypocritical piece of crap. No Betty you can’t hammer sense into stupid people. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Alabama resident B.A. spreading anti-mask propaganda. Thousands of illegal immigrants are crossing the southern border without masks. RIP B.A. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Pennsylvania man thought closing the border would protect him from Covid. Should’ve tried the vaccine instead : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
reddit.com: search results - immigrants


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It’s not even popular among truckers anymore.
> 
> The main trucking unions there are opposed to the convoy.  It makes them look bad.
> 
> When the Teamsters accuse you of ruining their image, you know you’re not a popular guy.


So that justfies imprisoning people for parking violations, freezing their assets, impounding their pets etc and doxing their supporters and freezing their assets?  You're all in on gross goverment overreach.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> /
> This a week ago and is before all the police hugging, bank seizing and the bottom falling out of Trudeau in parliament.  The truckers have the 1/3 team reality base (skews also very much younger).  Trudeau has another 1/3 firmly in his pocket (skews very much older).  How that middle 1/3 will break (which has always been the deciding factor throughout all this) especially when things begin to turn nastier is anyone's guess...the events themselves will influence opinion (kid get caught in it for example bad for Trudeau, seizure of parliament/riots building bad for the truckers).  So far, both sides have just been torching themselves with regular folks, who want their groceries....it may pull the truckers down but if Trudeau goes down with them the truckers still win....the truckers only need to pull Trudeau down....Trudeau has to pull the truckers down and do it in a way that keeps his popularity above water....it's asymmetrical (waive to my friend)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/nearly-half-say-they-may-not-agree-with-trucker-convoy


Fence sitters need to make a decision on who they want to live with and build a better place that is full of love.  Two choice to choose from Grace T, Fear or Love. Elitist & Jabs for life or Free Thinking Americans?  You can be ruled or you can be a ruler of your own castle.  No religion, just freedom to worship whatever and whoever you choose.  Marry who you want or just be free and go find your twin flame.  Looking for the Twin Flame is fun if you do it right


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Ah, did a Taliban or lazy Mexican sneak across the border and murder your mom by giving her Covid?  BTW, can you explain to me why it is that you're so consistently anti-vax, yet here you are posting a meme blaming unvaxxed immigrants for killing Americans by spreading Covid?  This is pretty much the most obvious example of racism and xenophobia that I've seen yet.
> 
> It is truly remarkable how consistently paranoid and racist anti-vaxxers like you tend to be.  Here are a few who share, I mean shared, your opinion before they died.
> 
> Scott needed to worry a bit less about immigrants at the border and a bit more about protecting his health in a pandemic. Now he’s got his award.  : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> (Repost w/ further redactions) Purple “T” was anti mask, antivax, anti immigrant, Pro-Trump, etc. Now he doesn’t get to be anything but a memory for his large, loving family : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> I've Spared Us the Usual Anti-Biden, Anti-Immigrant, Poor People Hating Rubbish. Brown (Anti-Vax Boomer) Brought Home to Die. He Was Shown More Compassion Than He Would Have Apparently Shown People with Car Trouble. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Meet "Johhny Mustang." "Johnny" hated BLM, Antifa, immigrants, masks, vaccines, the unemployed, and the liberals. He loved Trump, cars, guns, and CHRIST! Now Johnny has "angel wings" without RedBull. He also has a GoFundMe account and MANY recently deleted FB posts. [Repost w/ redactions] : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Anti-vaxxer blames Covid spread on unvaccinated immigrants, claimed by Covid. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Meet Betty. Doesn’t like immigrants. Doesn’t believe in the vax. Thinks “lazy people” don’t deserve help while bragging about social security. Just an all around hypocritical piece of crap. No Betty you can’t hammer sense into stupid people. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Alabama resident B.A. spreading anti-mask propaganda. Thousands of illegal immigrants are crossing the southern border without masks. RIP B.A. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> Pennsylvania man thought closing the border would protect him from Covid. Should’ve tried the vaccine instead : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
> reddit.com: search results - immigrants


The irony of their hypocrisy is undeniable.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Two-thirds of Canadians support use of Emergencies Act and want Freedom Convoy cleared out: poll
> 
> 
> But at the same time, 54 per cent of Canadians say they are 'ashamed' of how politicians have let the Freedom Convoy protests get out of hand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com




*Varney: Trudeau’s war with Canadian truckers is costing him*
*Trudeau paints Canadian truckers as 'radicals' as protests carry on*


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So that justfies imprisoning people for parking violations, freezing their assets, impounding their pets etc and doxing their supporters and freezing their assets?  You're all in on gross goverment overreach.


It is complete overreach. 

And this virus has shown that many politicians/governments are happy to go authoritarian. 

It is something that needs to be fought against and fought against hard. 

As we continually see, as gov control expands, it rarely gives back what it has gained.


----------



## crush

Notice no one is talking about the jab or boosters.  Debating if we should mask little kids all day at school or not.  I just met a lovely family who sold us a desk.  Their moving to Texas after 20 years in Newport.  Dude is sharp and a financial wiz.  Told me straight up a big crash is coming and he sold his $2,000,000 condo just in time.  Bought himself a ranch for $300,000, all cash.  Buckle up you guys and don;t panic and fret over money.  It was a lie and just a way to hold us all hostage.  No one wants to go back to working 60 hours a week and trying to make the boss happy.  We can all be our own boss if no more mask and non jabbers can be treated equally.  Ride out the storm that is coming through love and a helping hand to those in need. Be there for you la family.  Help your neighbors.  My other pal is leaving LA.  He said the crime is through the roof.  Some dude is running around West Hollywood with hammers and trying to rape women.  Insane times.  Please stay safe and don't be alone.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> So that justfies imprisoning people for parking violations, freezing their assets, impounding their pets etc and doxing their supporters and freezing their assets?  You're all in on gross goverment overreach.


Not just doxxing supporters.

Looks like the Canadian gov is talking about going after people who donated to the various crowdfunding sites and freezing their accounts.

Interesting how quickly they can go authoritarian.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494358600080404481


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> It is complete overreach.
> 
> And this virus has shown that many politicians/governments are happy to go authoritarian.
> 
> It is something that needs to be fought against and fought against hard.
> 
> As we continually see, as gov control expands, it rarely gives back what it has gained.


You should put on your viking hat and storm the Canadian Capitol this time.  I mean, it's not like a majority of Canadians voted for the law.  It's also not like a majority of Canadians support bringing out the Canadian version of whoop ass on a handful of whiny truck drivers by, gasp, depriving them of their pets and holding the $400 in their usually overdrawn bank accounts until they learn their lesson.  Shoot, what Canada is doing to its citizens is almost as bad as putting them in one of those American concentration camps where they make people wear masks and get vaxxed against their will.  Am I right?

It is very interesting how cray cray you get when a couple black guys throw a 50 cent brick through a $500 window, or even light a Wendy's on fire after the police shoot unarmed black people in the back or their sleep,  but privileged white folk breaking about 100 laws and costing Canadians and Americans $50 million a day is FREEEEDOOOMMM that needs to be protected at costs.   I say we give them the Derek Chauvin treatment instead of just freezing their bank account for a couple days.

Authoritarian Canadian Government?  That is so funny.  Russia is about to invade a country, yet you're whining about how Canada is so authoritarian that it's going to hold people's pets for a week.  You need to get you and your AR-15 up there pronto.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Not just doxxing supporters.
> 
> Looks like the Canadian gov is talking about going after people who donated to the various crowdfunding sites and freezing their accounts.
> 
> Interesting how quickly they can go authoritarian.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494358600080404481


Americans would NEVER put up with something like that!!!

Oh, wait --






						Asset Forfeiture Management Staff (AFMS)
					






					www.justice.gov


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Not just doxxing supporters.
> 
> Looks like the Canadian gov is talking about going after people who donated to the various crowdfunding sites and freezing their accounts.
> 
> Interesting how quickly they can go authoritarian.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494358600080404481


Wow, you are in opposite land.  You support a former president who tried to stage a coup to stay in power despite losing the election, and would have supported him if he had succeeded, but the Canadian government discussing their legal options under a law enacted and supported by a majority of Canadians is "authoritarian".


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Americans would NEVER put up with something like that!!!
> 
> Oh, wait --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asset Forfeiture Management Staff (AFMS)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


Shhh!!!!  Don't tell him until the feds turn Trump Tower into a Holiday Inn.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Americans would NEVER put up with something like that!!!
> 
> Oh, wait --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asset Forfeiture Management Staff (AFMS)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


"The primary mission of the Program is to employ asset forfeiture powers in a manner that enhances public safety and security. This is accomplished by removing the proceeds of crime and other assets relied upon by criminals and their associates to perpetuate their criminal activity against our society. Asset forfeiture has the power to disrupt or dismantle criminal organizations that would continue to function if we only convicted and incarcerated specific individuals"

*sounds like  a great tool to bust unions. *


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Shhh!!!!  Don't tell him until the feds turn Trump Tower into a Holiday Inn.


So do the world a favor and hold your breath until that happens!


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, you are in opposite land.  You support a former president who tried to stage a coup to stay in power despite losing the election, and would have supported him if he had succeeded, but the Canadian government discussing their legal options under a law enacted and supported by a majority of Canadians is "authoritarian".


He staged a coup?  Who's cray cray?


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, you are in opposite land.  You support a former president who tried to stage a coup to stay in power despite losing the election, and would have supported him if he had succeeded, but the Canadian government discussing their legal options under a law enacted and supported by a majority of Canadians is "authoritarian".


How many jabs have you taken dude?  Be honest.  I have some serious news you might what to listen to.  I will PM you after you tell me how many and by WHO you got jabbed by.  I have a very good pal who went to Stanford and is a big time Doc and has this thing that can tell you what your in for.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Shoot, what Canada is doing to its citizens is almost as bad as putting them in one of those American concentration camps where they make people wear masks and get vaxxed against their will.  Am I right?


Are you referencing CA school districts?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> How many jabs have you taken dude?  Be honest.  I have some serious news you might what to listen to.  I will PM you after you tell me how many and by WHO you got jabbed by.  I have a very good pal who went to Stanford and is a big time Doc and has this thing that can tell you what your in for.


One thing at a time.  I'm selling my house right now based on that hot tip you just gave us all couple minutes ago.  It's a real shame you're living in a van and can't benefit from it.

I'll get to the super duper secret you heard from that Stanford doc on the low down about how it's going to be the Walking Dead for us vaxxed folks as soon as I can. Before we get to that, though, please tell me that when you refer to a "doc", you're at least getting your bad life changing advice from "doctors" rather than directors of coaching these days.


----------



## crush

GO PAPA BEAR!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> One thing at a time.  I'm selling my house right now based on that hot tip you just gave us all couple minutes ago.  It's a real shame you're living in a van and can't benefit from it.
> 
> I'll get to the super duper secret you heard from that Stanford doc on the low down about how it's going to be the Walking Dead for us vaxxed folks as soon as I can. Before we get to that, though, please tell me that when you refer to a "doc", you're at least getting your bad life changing advice from "doctors" rather than directors of coaching these days.


Crush is the nutter they all wish they could be.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> One thing at a time.  I'm selling my house right now based on that hot tip you just gave us all couple minutes ago.  It's a real shame you're living in a van and can't benefit from it.
> 
> I'll get to the super duper secret you heard from that Stanford doc on the low down about how it's going to be the Walking Dead for us vaxxed folks as soon as I can. Before we get to that, though, please tell me that when you refer to a "doc", you're at least getting your bad life changing advice from "doctors" rather than directors of coaching these days.


Answer the question.  How many did you take?  How many man?  Don't dodge the question either.   What brand or did you mix it up?


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> Crush is the nutter they all wish they could be.


It is fascinating watching the rest of the anti-vax nutters constantly tip toeing around the awkwardness of being on the same side as the undisputed heavyweight coco de mer of them all.  I can't imagine how hard it must be for them to try passing off their rubbish as thoughtful and educated with the cuckoo bird constantly hovering overhead.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> It is fascinating watching the rest of the anti-vax nutters constantly tip toeing around the awkwardness of being on the same side as the undisputed heavyweight coco de mer of them all.  I can't imagine how hard it must be for them to try passing off their rubbish as thoughtful and educated with the cuckoo bird constantly hovering overhead.


You guys hate kids and treat women like shit.  You will not prosper anymore cheater.  Why did you treat my dd so bad and lie to her?  Seriously?  Why?


----------



## crush

Hey GG, I think I'm the only one on here not jabbed at least once.  How many did you take already?  Brand or a mix of all of it?


----------



## crush

I'm going to take some time off and let the great Golden Gate go cray cray on all of you.  This dude needs the stage and it's all his.  He has much to let out and pain is deep in this soul.  You have been right about so much already GG, so please, take the reigns and tell us all how the future will look for those who took more then three jabs and those who chose to be healthy and took zero jabs?


----------



## crush

Oh, Dr. Fraud just gave us his mask ruling:  
*Fauci says it's 'risky' to 'take masks off the kids'*
*Fauci warns against dropping masks in public schools*
"Now we could get lucky, cause the trajectory right now is going way down," Fauci added. "And it very well may be that if you take masks off of kids in the next week or so, it's going to keep going down. But you have to be careful."


----------



## Brav520

Exclusive: Dems' internal polling reveals 'alarming' warning on COVID
					

The campaign arm of the Democratic Party is sounding alarms over internal polling...




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So that justfies imprisoning people for parking violations, freezing their assets, impounding their pets etc and doxing their supporters and freezing their assets?  You're all in on gross goverment overreach.


We both know it wasn't just a parking violation.  It was an organized attempt to block international trade.

They'll get their day in court.   They had better hope the don't have to pay compensation to third parties.  The payment to GM alone would drive them to bankruptcy.


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> We both know it wasn't just a parking violation.  It was an organized attempt to block international trade.
> 
> They'll get their day in court.   They had better hope the don't have to pay compensation to third parties.  The payment to GM alone would drive them to bankruptcy.


as I heard during BLM riots , no worries the businesses have insurance


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> Exclusive: Dems' internal polling reveals 'alarming' warning on COVID
> 
> 
> The campaign arm of the Democratic Party is sounding alarms over internal polling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


Based on the retirements alone it’s shaping up to be anywhere from a good pounding against the ds to a tidal wave that sends them into the minority possibly for a generation (barring any major f ups like trump)

there also no optimism for a turnaround. Either we have a period of prolonged inflation, the fed has to hit the breaks and we fall into recession, or quite possibly both for 70s style stagflation (chances for the later rise substantially if there’s a European war).

the only thing the ds can hope for is that the polls show people are tired of the trump Schtick and stolen election routine.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> We both know it wasn't just a parking violation.  It was an organized attempt to block international trade.


Like when the Unions at the Ports go on strike?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Crush is the nutter they all wish they could be.











						Had to do it...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Justin Trudeau is informed about the trucker protests...
					

Another Amazing Video Meme Created by Mi Amigo NautPoso!!! Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo




					rumble.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Back when this "vaccine" thread started you were interesting and informative, even when you were wrong about some point.  Lately, you have reverted to little more than a Fox News echo.


Hahaha! This from the guy that never posts anything remotely interesting or thought-provoking. I didn't realize you were such a FoxNews aficionado. When did this start, before or after you were a Republican? Hahaha! Worthless POS troll.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! This from the guy that never posts anything remotely interesting or thought-provoking. I didn't realize you were such a FoxNews aficionado. When did this start, before or after you were a Republican? Hahaha! Worthless POS troll.


Dude is no troll, trust me.  This guy has been involved in girls youth soccer for a very long time.  We all know what his motives where when he went to church camp when he was a teenager.  Girls just wanted to go to church camp to get away from punks and he has to show up looking to score at church camp.  Same kid but now 75.  He has no regard for females.  Look at his sidekick.  These two are nasty!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Dude is no troll, trust me.


Wikipedia disagrees. 
In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

E and friends should get a room - online, of course. They could also help each other by making sure they take their prescribed medications. The behavior we are seeing from them now is the fallout from the failed COVID policy they have been parroting as well as seeing the failure of their various heroes and causes - Cuomo #1, Cuomo #2, "The Adults in the White House", Defund the police, Critical Race Theory, Zero Bail, etc. As I mentioned, we'll see more of this as it gets closer to the election and the talking points from the left become more frantic. The rationalizations and gaslighting will be unprecedented as will the left-leaning media outlets' support of these activities. Get your popcorn. It'll be entertaining.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wikipedia disagrees.
> In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community
> 
> E and friends should get a room - online, of course. They could also help each other by making sure they take their prescribed medications. The behavior we are seeing from them now is the fallout from the failed COVID policy they have been parroting as well as seeing the failure of their various heroes and causes - Cuomo #1, Cuomo #2, "The Adults in the White House", Defund the police, Critical Race Theory, Zero Bail, etc. As I mentioned, we'll see more of this as it gets closer to the election and the talking points from the left become more frantic. The rationalizations and gaslighting will be unprecedented as will the left-leaning media outlets' support of these activities. Get your popcorn. It'll be entertaining.


Let’s not forget how many of them rallied behind Smollette, made accusations that have since been proven false and have yet to retract or correct them!


----------



## NorCalDad

Red Covid, an Update
					

The partisan gap in Covid deaths is still growing, but more slowly.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Let’s not forget how many of them rallied behind Smollette, made accusations that have since been proven false and have yet to retract or correct them!


How many of them was that?  Who were they?


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Red Covid, an Update
> 
> 
> The partisan gap in Covid deaths is still growing, but more slowly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


The main number which makes a difference is the boosted/vaxxed figures for over 65.  It's by far the biggest difference (and the biggest difference between the US and Europe).  No other intervention really makes much of an impact in comparison.


----------



## Grace T.

This apparently is o.k. in NY but the Ds are forcing kids still to eat outside and to be masked all day long.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494417974471663617


----------



## Grace T.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494696048748597255


----------



## Grace T.

Outdoors, in the open air, the guy has a medical exemption, and in the midst of doing one of the most dangerous sports on the planet...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494719216070676485


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> This apparently is o.k. in NY but the Ds are forcing kids still to eat outside and to be masked all day long.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494417974471663617


It's funny how this is the best that the legal beagle has.  We all know we are pretty much post-mask when we can ensure that attendees at events are vaxxed and boosted and that other protections are being taken in an environment that is controlled and devoid of idiots like her. I wonder if Ms. Never Held A Job In Her Life can tell us what the attendance rules were.  Were attendees required to be vaxxed?  Or required to wear masks and socially distance if they weren't?  Presumably no GOP idiots like her who love to spread Covid were invited.

If the former equestrian and her shitbag friends would just get vaxxed, they wouldn't need to be whining about eating outside or kids wearing masks. The real problem is that people like her want to whine and are addicted to snarky memes that pay no regard to facts, reality or real thought.  They are not serious people.  They're just cuckoo birds like crush only slightly more capable of passing themselves off as having at least two synapses working.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> How many of them was that?  Who were they?


Your President and Vice President to start…..


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Outdoors, in the open air, the guy has a medical exemption, and in the midst of doing one of the most dangerous sports on the planet...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494719216070676485


It is also funny how weak-minded the legal beagle must be that a "Gummi Bear" can induce her and her buddies to twist whatever the fuck that was into an example of how Canada is an oppressive regime.  Exactly how weak-minded must someone be to believe that an a**hole who refuses to follow a private company's clearly stated rules based on some concocted and almost certainly fake "medical exemption" excuse is being mistreated, especially since he wasn't even given the Chauvin treatment.  Rather, he went limp like a whiny toddler protesting that he couldn't have a lollipop before lunch.  Honestly, it is remarkable how anyone could watch this and not get the impression that he is a whiny Karen.  Seriously, this is what the GOP thinks constitutes oppression and tyranny.

I do have questions for our legal beagle.  If he has a medical condition that is so severe that he can't wear a mask, although pretty much any three year old can do without any problems whatsoever and the Canadian women's hockey team can beat the shit out of opponents wearing them, how on earth does he have the lung capacity to ski down that double black diamond run? What exactly was this clown's debilitating "medical condition" Grace?  You have no idea do you?  You're just making it up or easily duped by a chewy sweet candy because propaganda is your thing?

Also, since when is being escorted off a mountain by security for being a whiny child "being arrested"?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Your President and Vice President to start…..


What names do they post under here?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Outdoors, in the open air, the guy has a medical exemption, and in the midst of doing one of the most dangerous sports on the planet...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494719216070676485


Seriously, this is so pathetic it merits even more mocking.  If wearing a mask down this run is too much for him based on his "disability", his "reasonable accommodation" can be to put on a f**king mask and hit the less taxing bunny slopes where this child throwing a tantrum belongs.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> It's funny how this is the best that the legal beagle has.  We all know we are pretty much post-mask when we can ensure that attendees at events are vaxxed and boosted and that other protections are being taken in an environment that is controlled and devoid of idiots like her. I wonder if Ms. Never Held A Job In Her Life can tell us what the attendance rules were.  Were attendees required to be vaxxed?  Or required to wear masks and socially distance if they weren't?  Presumably no GOP idiots like her who love to spread Covid were invited.
> 
> If the former equestrian and her shitbag friends would just get vaxxed, they wouldn't need to be whining about eating outside or kids wearing masks. The real problem is that people like her want to whine and are addicted to snarky memes that pay no regard to facts, reality or real thought.  They are not serious people.  They're just cuckoo birds like crush only slightly more capable of passing themselves off as having at least two synapses working.


Please use a wipe when you are done...please..


----------



## Grace T.

Not blockading traffic, not engaged in violence, just peacefully protesting.  What a difference two years makes, huh?  Remember when Trudeau said burning churches was understandable?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494720156878184448


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Please use a wipe when you are done...please..


Am I getting in the way of you and your friends pretending that a grown man who is acting like a whiny toddler is a martyr?  Is wearing a mask too physically demanding for you also?  It is truly amazing how pathetic all of you are.


----------



## Desert Hound

SF is not only reliably D it is overwhelmingly D.

They have not had an R in the mayors office since late 60s or early 70s...

And yet parents overwhelmingly voting to recall the 3 school board members is due to the right wing.

There are not enough Rs in that area to overturn anything. CNN likes to pretend otherwise. The people who voted to recall were overwhelmingly D.

But CNN has a different spin.









						San Francisco school board recall sends a dangerous message | CNN
					

While the results in San Francisco school board recall may resist simple analysis, the politics swirling around the recall tell us something important about a process underway across the country - and the long history of 'parents' rights' rhetoric, writes Nicole Hemmer.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> This apparently is o.k. in NY but the Ds are forcing kids still to eat outside and to be masked all day long.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494417974471663617


More power to them for exercising their freedoms.  I hope they continue to do so.  But better than them exercising their freedoms, is parents exercising their freedom to vote in November.  The writing is already on wall as we saw in the SF recall.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Not blockading traffic, not engaged in violence, just peacefully protesting.  What a difference two years makes, huh?  Remember when Trudeau said burning churches was understandable?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494720156878184448


Latest news is that the Ottawa truckers have agreed to willingly leave.  I think that's a wise idea, they've proven their point.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Not blockading traffic, not engaged in violence, just peacefully protesting.  What a difference two years makes, huh?  Remember when Trudeau said burning churches was understandable?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494720156878184448


After two weeks of disturbing the peace, they wore out the patience of the majority.

This is what eventually happens to minority movements based on being annoying.   They give you some space to make a fool of yourself.  Then, when you have everyone good and mad at you, they come in and remove the trash.

Seattle took longer to do it, but it’s the same concept.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> SF is not only reliably D it is overwhelmingly D.
> 
> They have not had an R in the mayors office since late 60s or early 70s...
> 
> And yet parents overwhelmingly voting to recall the 3 school board members is due to the right wing.
> 
> There are not enough Rs in that area to overturn anything. CNN likes to pretend otherwise. The people who voted to recall were overwhelmingly D.
> 
> But CNN has a different spin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco school board recall sends a dangerous message | CNN
> 
> 
> While the results in San Francisco school board recall may resist simple analysis, the politics swirling around the recall tell us something important about a process underway across the country - and the long history of 'parents' rights' rhetoric, writes Nicole Hemmer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.

The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.








						San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
					

If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.




					www.cnn.com
				




One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Latest news is that the Ottawa truckers have agreed to willingly leave.  I think that's a wise idea, they've proven their point.


They definitely proved their point.



			https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKVBW6nXsAIvc7O?format=jpg&name=large


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.
> 
> The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
> 
> 
> If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


So is it the left or the right that is trying to end the practice of using rape-kit DNA as evidence to solve other crimes?

(Full disclosure -- that is a Socratic question)


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.
> 
> The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
> 
> 
> If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


The left’s misogyny problem is not that they themselves are misogynistic.  It’s that their world view explodes when one oppressed group oppresses another.  They’re stuck listening to rap music on the way to a Me Too rally.

The right has a similar problem.  They have 50 years experience talking about law and order.  Then someone gathers a mob to attack the capitol building.  Logically, they all should be chanting “Lock Him Up!”, but they can’t.

It leaves both fringes looking pretty ridiculous.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.
> 
> The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
> 
> 
> If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


Who runs the states with the highest poverty rates?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> What names do they post under here?


Are you really that dumb or do you just act like it?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Am I getting in the way of you and your friends pretending that a grown man who is acting like a whiny toddler is a martyr?  Is wearing a mask too physically demanding for you also?  It is truly amazing how pathetic all of you are.


Says the whiny toddler….


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> After two weeks of disturbing the peace, they wore out the patience of the majority.
> 
> This is what eventually happens to minority movements based on being annoying.   They give you some space to make a fool of yourself.  Then, when you have everyone good and mad at you, they come in and remove the trash.
> 
> Seattle took longer to do it, but it’s the same concept.


The majority needed those parking spots that badly?  It was Trudeau's patience that wore thin due to his own inability to exercise leadership, and instead had to invoke martial law.

You can't remotely compare Seattle to Canada.  People were getting killed in Seattle, violence and crime was rampant.  There was no cause involved other than anarchy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> More power to them for exercising their freedoms.  I hope they continue to do so.  But better than them exercising their freedoms, is parents exercising their freedom to vote in November.  The writing is already on wall as we saw in the SF recall.


The “SF recall” wasn’t about what you want it to be about and doesn’t mean what you think it does.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The right has a similar problem.  They have 50 years experience talking about law and order.  Then someone gathers a mob to attack the capitol building.  Logically, they all should be chanting “Lock Him Up!”, but they can’t.


The big difference is the right and lefts response to their riots.  The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress, whereas the left remained mostly silent or actually supported the actions of the "summer of love" rioters.

The right has universally condemned the siege on the capitol except for the most diehard Trumpsters like MTG.  And those that did it are being prosecuted for doing so.  They weren't mainstream Republicans they were idiots that were following a false prophet. (Unfortunately there are some on the right like Graham that has since softened their stance on Trump.  I wish the party would kick Trump to the curb.  Just because he can win is not a valid reason for supporting him.)

As opposed to the left and its media that supported the rioters or didn't call them out.  Recall Chris Coumo that said "And please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."  Kamala paid bail for some of the rioters.

Neither side can take the high road for the events that happened, but the responses to those events are light years different.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The “SF recall” wasn’t about what you want it to be about and doesn’t mean what you think it does.


Like clockwork there is that denial of reality.

Enlighten me.  What do I think it means and what was it really about?

It was absolutely about parents taking back power because of policies implemented by misguided school officials that were more concerned about woke agendas and power than the welfare of children.  Was it just about masks? No.  Was it just about the renaming of schools? No.  Was it just about the elimination of advanced educational opportunities based on merit? No.  Was it just about discrimination against Asians? No.  Was it just about school closures? No.  It was all those things.

It was not about right or left it was about children and their parents.  For fucks sake the recall vote was as high as 79% in favor of recall.  That's a referendum like no other.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Are you really that dumb or do you just act like it?


Reading back up the thread, it was concerned with local posters.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> The big difference is the right and lefts response to their riots.  The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress, whereas the left remained mostly silent or actually supported the actions of the "summer of love" rioters.
> 
> The right has universally condemned the siege on the capitol except for the most diehard Trumpsters like MTG.  And those that did it are being prosecuted for doing so.  They weren't mainstream Republicans they were idiots that were following a false prophet. (Unfortunately there are some on the right like Graham that has since softened their stance on Trump.  I wish the party would kick Trump to the curb.  Just because he can win is not a valid reason for supporting him.)
> 
> As opposed to the left and its media that supported the rioters or didn't call them out.  Recall Chris Coumo that said "And please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."  Kamala paid bail for some of the rioters.
> 
> Neither side can take the high road for the events that happened, but the responses to those events are light years different.


Your attempts at revisionist history (and present) are silly at best.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Like clockwork there is that denial of reality.
> 
> Enlighten me.  What do I think it means and what was it really about?
> 
> It was absolutely about parents taking back power because of policies implemented by misguided school officials that were more concerned about woke agendas and power than the welfare of children.  Was it just about masks? No.  Was it just about the renaming of schools? No.  Was it just about the elimination of advanced educational opportunities based on merit? No.  Was it just about discrimination against Asians? No.  Was it just about school closures? No.  It was all those things.
> 
> It was not about right or left it was about children and their parents.  For fucks sake the recall vote was as high as 79% in favor of recall.  That's a referendum like no other.


Google it lazy bones maybe you’ll learn something.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Reading back up the thread, it was concerned with local posters.


Another attempt at revisionist history from that poster.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Like clockwork there is that denial of reality.
> 
> Enlighten me.  What do I think it means and what was it really about?
> 
> It was absolutely about parents taking back power because of policies implemented by misguided school officials that were more concerned about woke agendas and power than the welfare of children.  Was it just about masks? No.  Was it just about the renaming of schools? No.  Was it just about the elimination of advanced educational opportunities based on merit? No.  Was it just about discrimination against Asians? No.  Was it just about school closures? No.  It was all those things.
> 
> It was not about right or left it was about children and their parents.  For fucks sake the recall vote was as high as 79% in favor of recall.  That's a referendum like no other.


Here lazy bones: https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-No-San-Francisco-s-school-board-16924385.php

Progressives vote for progressives but when they don’t do a good job progressives do something about it . . . Republicans make Demi-gods out of their incompetents.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> The “SF recall” wasn’t about what you want it to be about and doesn’t mean what you think it does.


progressive policies are extremely popular . The problem is we just weren’t given enough control to enact them properly

hoping the Dems continue to govern like this


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Then someone gathers a mob to attack the capitol building. Logically, they all should be chanting “Lock Him Up!”, but they can’t.


Actually that is wrong. 

R politicians have said trespassers, etc. should be prosecuted. 

They however have said it is not or was not an insurrection. Big difference. 

The further point many on the right make is there are people in jail in DC who have yet to even go to court. And this despite the fact that so far the people who have been charged have been charged for crimes such as trespassing and disorderly conduct. 

So they and people like myself wonder...if those are the charges being pressed, why are these people still in jail and why have they yet to go to court. 

So you completely misrepresent what is happening.


----------



## Grace T.

Good thread.  California and Florida had similar rates of infection.  Florida's death rate is worse, even when you break it down per million.  The chief reason it proposes is boosters (Florida's is the fifth to last in the country for boosting, even though its elderly is highly vaxxed).  The one intervention that matters is boosting the elderly.  Everything else seems to be noise.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494535371778056216


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> The big difference is the right and lefts response to their riots.  The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress, whereas the left remained mostly silent or actually supported the actions of the "summer of love" rioters.
> 
> The right has universally condemned the siege on the capitol except for the most diehard Trumpsters like MTG.  And those that did it are being prosecuted for doing so.  They weren't mainstream Republicans they were idiots that were following a false prophet. (Unfortunately there are some on the right like Graham that has since softened their stance on Trump.  I wish the party would kick Trump to the curb.  Just because he can win is not a valid reason for supporting him.)
> 
> As opposed to the left and its media that supported the rioters or didn't call them out.  Recall Chris Coumo that said "And please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."  Kamala paid bail for some of the rioters.
> 
> Neither side can take the high road for the events that happened, but the responses to those events are light years different.


Who on the right actually has the stones to condemn Trump for his seige?

The list is pretty darn slim.  And growing slimmer as politicians walk back their position.

Cheney is an exception.  And she is paying a very heavy price for her honesty.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Here lazy bones: https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-No-San-Francisco-s-school-board-16924385.php
> 
> Progressives vote for progressives but when they don’t do a good job progressives do something about it . . . Republicans make Demi-gods out of their incompetents.


Ha, ha.  An opinion piece from a liberal SF newspaper.  I was actually looking for evidence.

Your great on criticism but weak on actually providing facts to support your position.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Ha, ha.  An opinion piece from a liberal SF newspaper.  I was actually looking for evidence.
> 
> Your great on criticism but weak on actually providing facts to support your position.


So you’re saying it’s not what they say either, imagine that! Lol! . . . and your support for your position?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Ha, ha.  An opinion piece from a liberal SF newspaper.  I was actually looking for evidence.
> 
> Your great on criticism but weak on actually providing facts to support your position.


Telling how quickly Democrats clean house when improprieties or incompetence arise and the stark difference in reaction when similar happens across the aisle.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> The big difference is the right and lefts response to their riots.  The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress, whereas the left remained mostly silent or actually supported the actions of the "summer of love" rioters.
> 
> The right has universally condemned the siege on the capitol except for the most diehard Trumpsters like MTG.  And those that did it are being prosecuted for doing so.  They weren't mainstream Republicans they were idiots that were following a false prophet. (Unfortunately there are some on the right like Graham that has since softened their stance on Trump.  I wish the party would kick Trump to the curb.  Just because he can win is not a valid reason for supporting him.)
> 
> As opposed to the left and its media that supported the rioters or didn't call them out.  Recall Chris Coumo that said "And please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."  Kamala paid bail for some of the rioters.
> 
> Neither side can take the high road for the events that happened, but the responses to those events are light years different.


"The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress" eh?  What a load of b.s. The GOP's official position is that it "constitutes legitimate political discourse".  That is the official platform of the nazi GOP.  Not the fringe.  It is your party's official party position, as is purging every person in its party who will not bend the knee. That said, it's actually kind of enjoyable seeing the lonely milquetoast yes man, thank you sir may I have another, Mike Pence skulking around trying to walk that fine line between complete emasculation and just ordinary obsequiousness. 

Your assertion that Democratic leaders remained silent in response to the Floyd protests is also more b.s.  Obama condemned the rioting.  So did Biden.  So did Pelosi.  Meanwhile, Trump is out there begging people to invade the Capitol because he has such a small pee pee he can't taking losing and then he goes and hides in his bunker.

And, of course, there is the fact that one set of protests arose in response to our government murdering people of color - actual oppression in other words.  The Canadian bruhaha, on the other hand, is a few white people whining about how wearing a mask over the border is too much for the lungs. Only white privileged people can twist minor inconveniences that are intended to save lives into being the same as murdering people based on their skin color.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Good thread.  California and Florida had similar rates of infection.  Florida's death rate is worse, even when you break it down per million.  The chief reason it proposes is boosters (Florida's is the fifth to last in the country for boosting, even though its elderly is highly vaxxed).  The one intervention that matters is boosting the elderly.  Everything else seems to be noise.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494535371778056216


Now do Arizona.  I really want to hear desert hound explain how the highest death rate in the U.S besides Mississippi is so great, how up is down, and no means yes.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> The big difference is the right and lefts response to their riots.  The right mostly condemned the siege on Congress, whereas the left remained mostly silent or actually supported the actions of the "summer of love" rioters.
> 
> The right has universally condemned the siege on the capitol except for the most diehard Trumpsters like MTG.  And those that did it are being prosecuted for doing so.  They weren't mainstream Republicans they were idiots that were following a false prophet. (Unfortunately there are some on the right like Graham that has since softened their stance on Trump.  I wish the party would kick Trump to the curb.  Just because he can win is not a valid reason for supporting him.)
> 
> As opposed to the left and its media that supported the rioters or didn't call them out.  Recall Chris Coumo that said "And please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."  Kamala paid bail for some of the rioters.
> 
> Neither side can take the high road for the events that happened, but the responses to those events are light years different.


Here's the official document of your beloved GOP "mostly condemning the siege on Congress".  Not a misleading or snarky meme.  No, the official document of the Republican National Committee taking down the only two republican members of Congress who won't get their noses brown.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Am I getting in the way of you and your friends pretending that a grown man who is acting like a whiny toddler is a martyr?  Is wearing a mask too physically demanding for you also?  It is truly amazing how pathetic all of you are.


There ya go, hope you feel better.  It's good to see someone using a safe  outlet to vent their frustrations...way better than a rx.   I commend you for that.  You add zero value to any type of discussion but at least you safely self medicate.  You may be on to something.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.
> 
> The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
> 
> 
> If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


I must be in your head somewhere. Not sure how you connected me to this. Is it because I'm anti-school privatization? Or pro-mask, or pro-vax? Do tell, how'd you connect the dots here. Maybe you saw my ballot the last time I voted? 

After reading the article you posted, it's hard for me to even understand how you connected that abhorrent behavior to democrats.


----------



## Grace T.

Apparently peacefully protesting in Ottowa is now illegal.  No wonder dad4 was pushing his love of Canada the other day!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494613914314809388


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> It's amazing how left wing policies has turned SF into a complete shit hole, yet GoldenGate and NocalDad continue to be staunch supporters of the D's.  Reality seems lost on them.  In general reality seems lost on most Dems.  Some are seeing the light, but that's generally due to them evaluating their reelection chances and not a good faith change of heart.
> 
> The corruption, incompetence and abuse of power keeps on coming for SF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco rape controversy will have a chilling effect | CNN
> 
> 
> If rape survivors believe that the evidence collected in their rape kits could be used against them, that's one more reason on an already-long list to not trust the criminal justice system -- or seek justice at all, argues Jill Filipovic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things I find interesting is the misogynistic, or anti-women, tendencies of the left.  That doesn't seem very woke.


Did you even read this article?  It was your beloved right wing piggies who were engaging in this behavior.  You really need to go out of your way to blame the egregious misconduct of your right wing buddies on me.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Here's the official document of your beloved GOP "mostly condemning the siege on Congress".  Not a misleading or snarky meme.  No, the official document of the Republican National Committee taking down the only two republican members of Congress who won't get their noses brown.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12961





GoldenGate said:


> Here's the official document of your beloved GOP "mostly condemning the siege on Congress".  Not a misleading or snarky meme.  No, the official document of the Republican National Committee taking down the only two republican members of Congress who won't get their noses brown.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12961


I 100% disagree with this and what they've done to Cheney and Kinzinger.  This is the pure partisanship, that I disdain.  I also don't condone the Republican's refusal to not respond to the subpoena.  Although I don't blame them given the whole Russian investigation debacle.

However, nowhere in what you posted does it promote violence.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Apparently peacefully protesting in Ottowa is now illegal.  No wonder dad4 was pushing his love of Canada the other day!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494613914314809388


It's great how right wingers whine "this is a nation of laws" whenever someone doesn't follow a law after the government murders black people, but when white people won't obey them it's suddenly "peaceful protest".  Like when a black guy causes $1000 worth of damage breaking a window, while costing people $50 million a day is "peaceful protest".  The American white right is really feeling the squeeze now that even highly Caucasian Canada won't put up with that shit.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I 100% disagree with this and what they've done to Cheney and Kinzinger.  This is the pure partisanship, that I disdain.  I also don't condone the Republican's refusal to not respond to the subpoena.  Although I don't blame them given the whole Russian investigation debacle.
> 
> However, nowhere in what you posted does it promote violence.


That is your party.  That is the platform.  Don't tell me that telling domestic terrorists that their behavior is "legitimate political discourse" does not promote violence. Don't tell me that purging the party of the only two members who will stand up to fight it does not promote violence.  Your assertion that most republicans condemned the siege is complete and utter bullshit.  Own it.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I must be in your head somewhere. Not sure how you connected me to this. Is it because I'm anti-school privatization? Or pro-mask, or pro-vax? Do tell, how'd you connect the dots here. Maybe you saw my ballot the last time I voted?
> 
> After reading the article you posted, it's hard for me to even understand how you connected that abhorrent behavior to democrats.


My bad, I took your anti-Republican posts as being pro-Democrat.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> It's great how right wingers whine "this is a nation of laws" whenever someone doesn't follow a law after the government murders black people, but when white people won't obey them it's suddenly "peaceful protest".  Like when a black guy causes $1000 worth of damage breaking a window, while costing people $50 million a day is "peaceful protest".  The American white right is really feeling the squeeze now that even highly Caucasian Canada won't put up with that shit.


$1000?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> My bad, I took your anti-Republican posts as being pro-Democrat.


Just for the record...I can't stand most politicians.  Neoliberals are just as bad as the much of the Republicans.  I think I've said many times over I think Sanders would've been the right vote for this country.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I 100% disagree with this and what they've done to Cheney and Kinzinger.  This is the pure partisanship, that I disdain.  I also don't condone the Republican's refusal to not respond to the subpoena.  Although I don't blame them given the whole Russian investigation debacle.
> 
> However, nowhere in what you posted does it promote violence.


As to the “Russian investigation debacle.”


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/2016/11/24/793903b6-8a40-4ca9-b712-716af66098fe_story.html
		

I know they don’t talk about these things on infowars or Bannon’s podcast.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I 100% disagree with this and what they've done to Cheney and Kinzinger.  This is the pure partisanship, that I disdain.  I also don't condone the Republican's refusal to not respond to the subpoena.  Although I don't blame them given the whole Russian investigation debacle.
> 
> However, nowhere in what you posted does it promote violence.


Sure, you "disdain" them so much that an hour ago you lied to everyone that it was just a few fringe republicans and not the official platform of your party.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Just for the record...I can't stand most politicians.  Neoliberals are just as bad as the much of the Republicans.  I think I've said many times over I think Sanders would've been the right vote for this country.


And I've said before that Sander's seems like a sincere politician, but I don't agree with most of his principles.  Most politicians are in it for themselves and not the public.

I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that liberal policies haven't been a complete disaster for San Francisco (or Baltimore or Detroit).   We've had some bad Republican mayors in San Diego, but we don't continue to double down on our mistakes.  While I don't agree with some of his policies, I think that our Democrat mayor is doing a decent job.   Balance is a good thing.  Any city that is too heavy in one direction is not going to be well served.  I just find the left's policies more emotional than substantive.  Right or left, I prefer a candidate that has done something outside of politics, as opposed to only having sucked off the government teat.   Career politicians are the worst.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> As to the “Russian investigation debacle.”
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/2016/11/24/793903b6-8a40-4ca9-b712-716af66098fe_story.html
> 
> 
> I know they don’t talk about these things on infowars or Bannon’s podcast.


How dare you question the fairness of our elections!  Did you actually read the article? Because I missed the part where it said Trump conspired with Russia.  I don't think anyone doubts that Russia attempted to interfere with our elections.  Always has and always will.

Which parts of the Russian dossier did you find factual since that was the basis for the investigation of Trump?

You know what's a bigger problem than Russian misinformation?  People getting their news from social media or the Daily Show, or Infowars for that matter.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Sure, you "disdain" them so much that an hour ago you lied to everyone that it was just a few fringe republicans and not the official platform of your party.


Let me know when you find evidence that the Republican's support violent protest.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> How dare you question the fairness of our elections!  Did you actually read the article? Because I missed the part where it said Trump conspired with Russia.  I don't think anyone doubts that Russia attempted to interfere with our elections.  Always has and always will.
> 
> Which parts of the Russian dossier did you find factual since that was the basis for the investigation of Trump?
> 
> You know what's a bigger problem than Russian misinformation?  People getting their news from social media or the Daily Show, or Infowars for that matter.


You refuse to see the obvious. Do you understand why he and those around him were investigated? Or are you all a tizzy because Hillary’s campaign “spied” on the donald campaign (tip: all campaigns keep an eye on the competition).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Let me know when you find evidence that the Republican's support violent protest.


“You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”
“let’s have trial by fire!”
“We have Gabby in the crosshairs!”








						Almost one in three of Republicans say violence may be necessary to ‘save’ US
					

Troubling statistics show the post-election rancor that led to the US Capitol attack on 6 January is still very much in place




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Report: GOP Rep. Mo Brooks wore body armor during speech on January 6 - CNN Video
					

Anderson Cooper talks with Slate magazine political writer Jim Newell about his interview with Republican Rep. Mo Brooks, who told Newell he wore body armor under his clothes while he gave a speech on January 6.




					www.cnn.com
				











						The Republicans have become the party of violence | Column
					

Menacing signals suggest that Jan. 6 may have been the overture, not the finale.




					www.tampabay.com
				



It’s easy to find.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You refuse to see the obvious. Do you understand why he and those around him were investigated? Or are you all a tizzy because Hillary’s campaign “spied” on the donald campaign (tip: all campaigns keep an eye on the competition).


Ok, what is the obvious I missed?  And don't play the coy game of "google it" or "if you can't see the obvious, me explaining it to you won't make a difference"

Look I don't think Trump is a good dude, and I'm confident that he didn't object to being a beneficiary of Russia's meddling (Russia certainly did it for their own interests and not those of Trump), but there isn't any materially evidence of collusion.  I suspect that if 2024 is a Biden vs Trump election (god help us all) Russia would likely prefer Biden over Trump.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”
> “let’s have trial by fire!”
> “We have Gabby in the crosshairs!”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost one in three of Republicans say violence may be necessary to ‘save’ US
> 
> 
> Troubling statistics show the post-election rancor that led to the US Capitol attack on 6 January is still very much in place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: GOP Rep. Mo Brooks wore body armor during speech on January 6 - CNN Video
> 
> 
> Anderson Cooper talks with Slate magazine political writer Jim Newell about his interview with Republican Rep. Mo Brooks, who told Newell he wore body armor under his clothes while he gave a speech on January 6.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Republicans have become the party of violence | Column
> 
> 
> Menacing signals suggest that Jan. 6 may have been the overture, not the finale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tampabay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s easy to find.


I would wear body armor too.  Who wants to be gored by a Viking helmet?


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The further point many on the right make is there are people in jail in DC who have yet to even go to court. And this despite the fact that so far the people who have been charged have been charged for crimes such as trespassing and disorderly conduct.
> 
> So they and people like myself wonder...if those are the charges being pressed, why are these people still in jail and why have they yet to go to court.


I'm assuming those same people have been vociferous about the fact the there are typically 500,000 people in jail in the US who have not yet gone to trial. Under our laws, they are all innocent, and yet they are incarcerated. For many of those, they are there because they are poor, i.e. can't afford bail.

Its good that the right is now focusing on this.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Ok, what is the obvious I missed?  And don't play the coy game of "google it" or "if you can't see the obvious, me explaining it to you won't make a difference"
> 
> Look I don't think Trump is a good dude, and I'm confident that he didn't object to being a beneficiary of Russia's meddling (Russia certainly did it for their own interests and not those of Trump), but there isn't any materially evidence of collusion.  I suspect that if 2024 is a Biden vs Trump election (god help us all) Russia would likely prefer Biden over Trump.


Do you understand why the trump campaign was investigated? Do you remember the number of contacts between Russians and the trump circle? Do you/did you see these things and still wonder why American interests might be interested in what was up?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”
> “let’s have trial by fire!”
> “We have Gabby in the crosshairs!”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost one in three of Republicans say violence may be necessary to ‘save’ US
> 
> 
> Troubling statistics show the post-election rancor that led to the US Capitol attack on 6 January is still very much in place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: GOP Rep. Mo Brooks wore body armor during speech on January 6 - CNN Video
> 
> 
> Anderson Cooper talks with Slate magazine political writer Jim Newell about his interview with Republican Rep. Mo Brooks, who told Newell he wore body armor under his clothes while he gave a speech on January 6.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Republicans have become the party of violence | Column
> 
> 
> Menacing signals suggest that Jan. 6 may have been the overture, not the finale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tampabay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s easy to find.











						Unearthed tweets show Jamie Raskin, Joe Biden saying ‘fight like hell’
					

Republicans on Wednesday dug up past instances of Democratic House impeachment managers and President Biden using the words “fight” or “fight like hell” — one of the k…




					nypost.com
				












						Waters scares Democrats with call for all-out war on Trump
					

With her constant calls for President Donald Trump to be impeached, Waters is making even members of her own party anxious.




					www.politico.com
				






			https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-06-14/scalise-shooter-expressed-far-left-anti-republican-sentiments-in-the-past


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you understand why the trump campaign was investigated? Do you remember the number of contacts between Russians and the trump circle? Do you/did you see these things and still wonder why American interests might be interested in what was up?


Fair point.  But contacts with Russians doesn't mean collusion with Russians.  (it seems that a lot of politicians have contacts with Russians, rightly or wrongly) There was no evidence of collusion in those contacts.  That could have been determined in fairly short order; however, the entire investigation was propped up by the fake dossier.  The amount of time, effort and money spent on a investigation based foundationally on a fake document paid for by Democrats is absurd.  (not to say that Trump's attitude didn't exacerbate things).

Here is a fairly even handed treatment of the dossier and the investigation.








						The Steele dossier: A reckoning
					

When it came to light in January 2017, just days before Donald Trump took office, the so-called Steele dossier landed like a bombshell and sent shockwaves around the world with its salacious allegations about Trump and his supposed ties to Russia.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Grace T.

The Canada situation is not diffusing but instead is spinning away from the government real quick. Pictures of disabled, children and old people peaceful protestors trampled by horses.  Press arrested for filming.  Opposition parties calling for a strike this weekend in response with more protests around the country this weekend.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The Canada situation is not diffusing but instead is spinning away from the government real quick. Pictures of disabled, children and old people peaceful protestors trampled by horses.  Press arrested for filming.  Opposition parties calling for a strike this weekend in response with more protests around the country this weekend.











						Grandmother Dies After Police Trample Her On Horseback At Ottawa Freedom Rally
					

She was an elderly lady with a walker and the cops ran her through on horseback, she has since died of her injuries.  I had already been arrested at this point




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Brav520

,


crush said:


> Grandmother Dies After Police Trample Her On Horseback At Ottawa Freedom Rally
> 
> 
> She was an elderly lady with a walker and the cops ran her through on horseback, she has since died of her injuries.  I had already been arrested at this point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


police are claiming the horse tripped after someone threw a bicycle at it

the video is just mayhem so it’s impossible for me to see


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> Unearthed tweets show Jamie Raskin, Joe Biden saying ‘fight like hell’
> 
> 
> Republicans on Wednesday dug up past instances of Democratic House impeachment managers and President Biden using the words “fight” or “fight like hell” — one of the k…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Waters scares Democrats with call for all-out war on Trump
> 
> 
> With her constant calls for President Donald Trump to be impeached, Waters is making even members of her own party anxious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-06-14/scalise-shooter-expressed-far-left-anti-republican-sentiments-in-the-past


In defense of the Dems, they condemned the violence against Scalise.  Also neither side should be judged by one off nutjobs.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> In defense of the Dems, they condemned the violence against Scalise.  Also neither side should be judged by one off nutjobs.


I was just pointing out the Dems use of charged political rhetoric 

I understand that bar nut jobs , most people when they hear “fight like hell” aren’t going try to murder people


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> ,
> 
> 
> police are claiming the horse tripped after someone threw a bicycle at it
> 
> the video is just mayhem so it’s impossible for me to see


Doesn’t matter. She’s a martyr now.  This won’t end now because of that.

the problem with wars(and with most conflict) is once engaged things have a tendency to spin out of the parties control.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Fair point.  But contacts with Russians doesn't mean collusion with Russians.  (it seems that a lot of politicians have contacts with Russians, rightly or wrongly) There was no evidence of collusion in those contacts.  That could have been determined in fairly short order; however, the entire investigation was propped up by the fake dossier.  The amount of time, effort and money spent on a investigation based foundationally on a fake document paid for by Democrats is absurd.  (not to say that Trump's attitude didn't exacerbate things).
> 
> Here is a fairly even handed treatment of the dossier and the investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Steele dossier: A reckoning
> 
> 
> When it came to light in January 2017, just days before Donald Trump took office, the so-called Steele dossier landed like a bombshell and sent shockwaves around the world with its salacious allegations about Trump and his supposed ties to Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


You are running off the rightwing narrative. Yes Democrats pressed on the collusion angle and Republicans ran from questions turning a blind eye to any questionable contacts, except Jeff Sessions (was he the first to do the right thing thus becoming an outcast?)


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are running off the rightwing narrative. Yes Democrats pressed on the collusion angle and Republicans ran from questions turning a blind eye to any questionable contacts, except Jeff Sessions (was he the first to do the right thing thus becoming an outcast?)


I don't run off narratives, or at least I try not to.  I try to evaluate each situation separately.  I run off facts.  Dossier has widely been discredited? Fact.  The dossier provided the context for the investigations? Fact.  Was there some smoke due to Trump or his teams connections with Russians, yep but no tangible evidence of collusion from those contacts.  The contacts were a molehill, the left used the dossier and their disdain of Trump to make it mountain.

Did you support Trump's 1st impeachment even though the Mueller report didn't find evidence of collusion?  If so, that's following the left's narrative.

Trump is guilty of a number of things, but collusion with Russia is not one of them.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't run off narratives, or at least I try not to.  I try to evaluate each situation separately.  I run off facts.  Dossier has widely been discredited? Fact.  The dossier provided the context for the investigations? Fact.  Was there some smoke due to Trump or his teams connections with Russians, yep but no tangible evidence of collusion from those contacts.  The contacts were a molehill, the left used the dossier and their disdain of Trump to make it mountain.
> 
> Did you support Trump's 1st impeachment even though the Mueller report didn't find evidence of collusion?  If so, that's following the left's narrative.
> 
> Trump is guilty of a number of things, but collusion with Russia is not one of them.


The first impeachment was for obstruction of justice, referring to the actions t took to stop the investigation.  Why did he do that if there was nothing there?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The first impeachment was for obstruction of justice, referring to the actions t took to stop the investigation.  Why did he do that if there was nothing there?


Correct and issues related to Ukraine, I'm going to blame Covid brain.  He did it because he acts like a child and doesn't like being told what to do, or that's my educated guess.  It's also possible he was hiding something else and the left was using wide latitude in their investigations.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Correct and issues related to Ukraine, I'm going to blame Covid brain.  He did it because he acts like a child and doesn't like being told what to do, or that's my educated guess.  It's also possible he was hiding something else and the left was using wide latitude in their investigations.


It is also well established that he is a criminal fraudster, so it's not too much of a stretch to believe that he is guilty of treason if he thought there was some profit to be made.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> The first impeachment was for obstruction of justice, referring to the actions t took to stop the investigation.  Why did he do that if there was nothing there?


the 2 articles in the first one were abuse of power and obstruction of Congress , centered around Ukraine


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Did you support Trump's 1st impeachment even though the Mueller report didn't find evidence of collusion?  If so, that's following the left's narrative.


Never mind, Husker.


----------



## Brav520

Mueller report comes out in 2019 of April. Mueller  testifies in late July, he was awful specifically regarding the second half of the report regarding obstruction of justice 


support for impeachment was low based on Mueller report , and Mueller”s testimony did them no favors , so Pelosi backed off


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> the 2 articles in the first one were abuse of power and obstruction of Congress , centered around Ukraine


It should be noted obstruction of justice and obstruction of Congress are two very different things.  You guys can argue whether they are morally equivalently bad but espola is just wrong on this one.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> It should be noted obstruction of justice and obstruction of Congress are two very different things.  You guys can argue whether they are morally equivalently bad but espola is just wrong on this one.


So there can be an argument but you have already rendered your judgment. Lol! Always assigning yourself the highest honors . . . did you say you were an only child?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *I run off facts.  Dossier has widely been discredited? Fact.*
> *Was there some smoke due to Trump or his teams connections with Russians, yep
> Trump is guilty of a number of things, but collusion with Russia is not one of them.*


Watfly, you said the pee pee news out of Moscow was all BS, right?  No smoke at all bro= not guilty.  These men are protecting something.  You double speak from the fence you sit on.  It spews with middle man BS bro, just honest with you.  Your close but not close enough.  You just dont like T and it's got you all clogged up in your brain.  The last 6 years of ruining most of our lives was a cover to protect the evil these people have done to kids.   Do you not see that yet?  Most men are scared and full of fear and you will see more and more leaving the planet.  Love & Light will rule this place, trust me and you can take that to the investors in your soul 

REAKING ... Jean-Luc Brunel, accomplice of Epstein, found dead in French prison.

Imagine that. Let me guess - he "hung himself."


----------



## crush

Take the jabs or else!!!!  They told the girls & boys that they could be models some day if they follow their mandates and do as they are told.  Sound familiar?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So there can be an argument but you have already rendered your judgment. Lol! Always assigning yourself the highest honors . . . did you say you were an only child?


Sigh. Let’s give you the remedial version mr no where near a 160 iq:

1. espola said the impeachment was about obstruction of justice. It wasn’t.  The second charge was obstruction of Congress (the first was abuse of power). Those are two very different things. He’s just wrong and that’s a fact
2. Whether the two are morally equivalent or not is an opinion, even if they are two different charges (e.g., murder and rape; obstruction of justice and obstruction of Congress). 
3. I have no opinion as to the opinion set forth in 2. above.


----------



## crush

The Decision has been made; Russia will invade our most important family, The Ukraine Family.  WTF are they hiding over there?  

*Russia-Ukraine: Kamala Harris in Munich: "Borders shouldn't be 'changed by force': LIVE UPDATES*
Vice President Kamala Harris warned Saturday that *"significant and unprecedented" consequences would follow if Russian President Vladimir Putin makes the decision to invade Ukraine.*

War War War War!!!  I have never in my life seen such craziness about Russia Russia Russia.  No more jabs, no more mask so now they have to go back to what they love the most......WAR!!!!


----------



## dad4

Grace is arguing about the first impeachment because she knows there is no way she can defend the second.

The dude raised a mob to violently overturn a presidential election, and he did it on live TV.  

We don't need to quibble about which kind of legal obstruction is which.  Trump's later actions made it moot.


----------



## Desert Hound

A lot of us have daughters.

Have guys who want to be women and compete against women is just wrong.

Look at the "champ" and how far ahead he was of the women he was competing against.

There is a reason long ago they created womens divisions. To have men now compete in them is a disgrace.









						Congrats to trans Ivy League swimming champ Lia Thomas for defeating a biological female in the 500 free (and setting a new record!) [video]
					

"As it turns out, men are incredible at women's swimming."




					twitchy.com


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Grace is arguing about the first impeachment because she knows there is no way she can defend the second.
> 
> The dude raised a mob to violently overturn a presidential election, and he did it on live TV.
> 
> We don't need to quibble about which kind of legal obstruction is which.  Trump's later actions made it moot.


Grace's response, while legalistically correct as far as it goes, ignores the attached question.  If there was nothing there, why the effort to obstruct?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Grace's response, while legalistically correct as far as it goes, ignores the attached question.  If there was nothing there, why the effort to obstruct?


On the front lines of the this big war.  Take cover men!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace is arguing about the first impeachment because she knows there is no way she can defend the second.
> 
> The dude raised a mob to violently overturn a presidential election, and he did it on live TV.
> 
> We don't need to quibble about which kind of legal obstruction is which.  Trump's later actions made it moot.


I’m not arguing anything about this first impeachment other than espola was wrong in his characterization. 

I do have an opinion and think the second was wrong. He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home.  There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify.  Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done.  Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful. 

you’ve gone over to your buddies and gone full troll haven’t you?  How far you’ve fallen from the thoughtful, mild mannered yet fearful guy from 2020.  Covid really did a number on you.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not arguing anything about this first impeachment other than espola was wrong in his characterization.
> 
> I do have an opinion and think the second was wrong. He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home.  There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify.  Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done.  Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
> 
> you’ve gone over to your buddies and gone full troll haven’t you?  How far you’ve fallen from the thoughtful, mild mannered yet fearful guy from 2020.  Covid really did a number on you.


Telling the truth is not trolling, unless you feel triggered by the truth.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> A lot of us have daughters.
> 
> Have guys who want to be women and compete against women is just wrong.
> 
> Look at the "champ" and how far ahead he was of the women he was competing against.
> 
> There is a reason long ago they created womens divisions. To have men now compete in them is a disgrace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats to trans Ivy League swimming champ Lia Thomas for defeating a biological female in the 500 free (and setting a new record!) [video]
> 
> 
> "As it turns out, men are incredible at women's swimming."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> twitchy.com


This is an example of an anti-women policy that the left promote that I mentioned earlier.  You can't undo puberty and you certainly can't undo it in a year.  She was competing as a man just a year before.  To compete post puberty at a minimum the athlete should have to go through a longer conversion treatment period.  One year is just absurd.  With all the rules there are in regards to doping it doesn't make sense.

I understand if you believe they shouldn't compete at all.   However, one of my son's best friends is transgendered (she to he) so I'm a little more sympathetic and think you have to evaluate these issues on a case by case basis.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Telling the truth is not trolling, unless you feel triggered by the truth.


I just think it’s hilarious that mr insist upon the details got the details wrong.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I just think it’s hilarious that mr insist upon the details got the details wrong.


How many "details" did you get wrong here?

"
 He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home. There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify. Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done. Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
"


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How many "details" did you get wrong here?
> 
> "
> He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home. There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify. Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done. Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
> "


I’m not going to go down this rabbit hole with you again.  We’ve already litigated this.  I don’t have much interest in rehashing old conversations about what is now history. Much of it is opinion which you are free to disagree with.
Now you are just trying to distract from the fact that you were wrong.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I’m not arguing anything about this first impeachment other than espola was wrong in his characterization.
> 
> I do have an opinion and think the second was wrong. He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home.  There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify.  Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done.  Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
> 
> you’ve gone over to your buddies and gone full troll haven’t you?  How far you’ve fallen from the thoughtful, mild mannered yet fearful guy from 2020.  Covid really did a number on you.


Trump was pressured to tell the mob to go home.  Left to his own devices I don't think he ever would have.  He was loving the fact that his supporters would storm the Capitol for him.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Trump was pressured to tell the mob to go home.  Left to his own devices I don't think he ever would have.  He was loving the fact that his supporters would storm the Capitol for him.


Agree. But that’s not what was alleged (a sort of willful and knowing negligence) but was alleged was that he invited an insurrection (which the facts simply don’t show). They could have charged him before he left office as you said but again it would require some testimony from those around him and would have raised uncomfortable questions about the office of capitol police. And again, just because you don’t have the evidence to impeach him doesn’t mean it wasn’t morally wrong. The legal political and moral are all different things.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Telling the truth is not trolling, unless you feel triggered by the truth.


What Truth have YOU ever posted.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I’m not going to go down this rabbit hole with you again.  We’ve already litigated this.  I don’t have much interest in rehashing old conversations about what is now history. Much of it is opinion which you are free to disagree with.
> Now you are just trying to distract from the fact that you were wrong.


"Litigated"?

I already admitted that you were correct.  

Now you can admit that t was the worst thing that ever happened to the GOP (and after Nixon and Agnew that's a true accomplishment)


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> What Truth have YOU ever posted.


Now THAT'S trolling.  Grace please take note.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I just think it’s hilarious that mr insist upon the details got the details wrong.


I have to laugh at the "lab leak debunked" supporter is now using obstruction as a basis for "there must be something to hide". What a worthless, partisan troll.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Agree. But that’s not what was alleged (a sort of willful and knowing negligence) but was alleged was that he invited an insurrection (which the facts simply don’t show). They could have charged him before he left office as you said but again it would require some testimony from those around him and would have raised uncomfortable questions about the office of capitol police. And again, just because you don’t have the evidence to impeach him doesn’t mean it wasn’t morally wrong. The legal political and moral are all different things.


“You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "Litigated"?
> 
> I already admitted that you were correct.
> 
> Now you can admit that t was the worst thing that ever happened to the GOP (and after Nixon and Agnew that's a true accomplishment)


You forgot hoover

I disagree he was the worst. I certainly think he was flawed. The politics of the 20th century were elites on the outside trying to supplant the white shoe often racist oligarchs of the white shoe republicans.   See auntie Maime for a representation. The politics of the 21st century are the peons rebelling against the meritocratic elites. That rebellion has taken place on the left and right. Romney/Clinton/bushes are the archetypes of what they are rebelling against.  Trumps use to the gop is he advances this dynamic.   I agree he was also severely flawed.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”


I recall someone posted clips of ds using the same “fight like hell” response.   If that’s your smoking gun it’s legally a poor one.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Agree. But that’s not what was alleged (a sort of willful and knowing negligence) but was alleged was that he invited an insurrection (which the facts simply don’t show). They could have charged him before he left office as you said but again it would require some testimony from those around him and would have raised uncomfortable questions about the office of capitol police. And again, just because you don’t have the evidence to impeach him doesn’t mean it wasn’t morally wrong. The legal political and moral are all different things.


The biggest issue I have about the 2nd impeachment is the "trial" was done before the investigation.  Flies in the face of the concept of innocent until proven guilty.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You gotta fight like hell or you won’t have a country!”


“Stay in the street and get more confrontational”


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You forgot hoover
> 
> I disagree he was the worst. I certainly think he was flawed. The politics of the 20th century were elites on the outside trying to supplant the white shoe often racist oligarchs of the white shoe republicans.   See auntie Maime for a representation. The politics of the 21st century are the peons rebelling against the meritocratic elites. That rebellion has taken place on the left and right. Romney/Clinton/bushes are the archetypes of what they are rebelling against.  Trumps use to the gop is he advances this dynamic.   I agree he was also severely flawed.


Harding was worse than Hoover.  Hoover was an honest man of principles in office at the wrong time.

T was the worst President ever.  His most fervent supporters (sons, daughter, Rudy, pillowguy) are all now laughingstocks.


----------



## Brav520

Kicker 2.0 said:


> “Stay in the street and get more confrontational”


In 2018, Democrat Rep. Maxine Watters said she had “no sympathy” for Trump administration officials who defended Trump’s “zero tolerance” immigration policy. She urged her supporters to “absolutely harass them” when appearing in public.

“They’re not going to be able to go to a restaurant, they’re not going to be able to stop at a gas station, they’re not going to be able to shop at a department store,” Waters said at the time. “The people are going to turn on them, they’re going to protest, they’re going to absolutely harass them.”

On March 20, 2018, Joe Biden told supporters he would have taken then-President Trump “behind the gym and beat the hell out of him” if they were in high school.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have to laugh at the "lab leak debunked" supporter is now using obstruction as a basis for "there must be something to hide". What a worthless, partisan troll.


I don't belong to any political party, a decision I reached after trying out several.  My partisanship position is anti-trumpist.  What's yours?


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> The biggest issue I have about the 2nd impeachment is the "trial" was done before the investigation.  Flies in the face of the concept of innocent until proven guilty.


They were rushed. They couldn’t make the deadline before he left office. They didn’t want it clogging up Biden’s first 100 days.


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> They were rushed. They couldn’t make the deadline before he left office. They didn’t want it clogging up Biden’s first 100 days.


Biden could certainly use a Trump impeachment trial right now

maybe They can impeach him again


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> Biden could certainly use a Trump impeachment trial right now
> 
> maybe They can impeach him again


I don't know that that would even be a big enough distraction from President Schleprock's policies.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Biden could certainly use a Trump impeachment trial right now
> 
> maybe They can impeach him again


Why bother?  The DOJ and NY AG are giving him enough trouble.  There is a possibility that the "richest President ever" may need to beg a judge for a Public Defender.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I’m not arguing anything about this first impeachment other than espola was wrong in his characterization.
> 
> I do have an opinion and think the second was wrong. He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home.  There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify.  Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done.  Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
> 
> you’ve gone over to your buddies and gone full troll haven’t you?  How far you’ve fallen from the thoughtful, mild mannered yet fearful guy from 2020.  Covid really did a number on you.


He got "Coviditist" and now is a full member of the Covidians. 


Grace T. said:


> You forgot hoover
> 
> I disagree he was the worst. I certainly think he was flawed. The politics of the 20th century were elites on the outside trying to supplant the white shoe often racist oligarchs of the white shoe republicans.   See auntie Maime for a representation. The politics of the 21st century are the peons rebelling against the meritocratic elites. That rebellion has taken place on the left and right. Romney/Clinton/bushes are the archetypes of what they are rebelling against.  Trumps use to the gop is he advances this dynamic.   I agree he was also severely flawed.


Grace T, were all flawed, let's be fair to Mr. Trump.  At least with T, we all saw his flaws out in the open.  These people were dealing with, they have no heart and do not play by the rules.  They hide & lie all the time and will spy on you and even kill you to STFU!!!  They cheat too.  They treat women and kids like shit and as pawns.  Horrible people we've dealing with on the this planet.  I love you Grace T.  The TRUTH might come out on Presidents Day   Notice no more mask or jab talk?  I talked to a buddy today and he's already back to normal.  He acts as if nothing took place the last 5 years.  High up in health field and boy let me tell you, he's double his income.  His wife and him made over $700,000 in 2021 and he thinks he might hit $1,000,000 this year.  He told me to move out of the state.  He loves me and thinks I'm better off in Texas.  He took three shots by Wuhan and two flu shots in last year in half.  Dude is not the same.  He used to be sick once or twice a year for a few days.  Guess what?  He's been sick so many times I lost count.  His last episode was over 10 days.  He's fighting the truth so much because he wants normal.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Why bother?  The DOJ and NY AG are giving him enough trouble.  There is a possibility that the "richest President ever" may need to beg a judge for a Public Defender.


*Bill Gates says Covid risks have ‘dramatically reduced’ but another pandemic is coming*

Bill Gates/Net worth
131.4 billion USD

He's coming out with a new "beyond meat" burger that is beyond anything anyone has ingested into their body before.  Metaverse is waiting to take you. What a planet to be on right now.  Freedom or Metaverse.  Love or Hate.  Light or Darkness.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> How many "details" did you get wrong here?
> 
> "
> He didn’t order the mob to seize the capitol. He told them to go home. There’s nothing in his words that would suggest an order towards violent insurrection as opposed to loud but peaceful protest. I think you could impeach him for delaying calls to shut down the thing once it turned violent but then you’d have to hoist Pelosi and the capitol police for being woefully unprepared and poorly executing the response (in some cases with police welcoming in the protestors into the capitol). if he ordered or told pence to overrule the election I think you could do it for that too but you’d need pence to testify. Finally Idont Think you can impeach him after the fact…once he left office it was done. Also just becausecertain behavior isn’t impeachable doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
> "


It's just one part of the ongoing lawfare but in this context interesting that just yesterday a judge ruled in the ongoing civil conspiracy suit re several 1/6 figures that Trump (but not Jr. , Guilliani, Brooks, etc) remains on the hook:

"Immediately before directing them to the Capitol, he told rally-goers that they would need to “fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” When those supporters did “fight like hell,” just as he had told them to, the President did not demand they act “peacefully and patriotically.” He instead tweeted that “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country.”.....These other statements by the President stand in stark contrast to his passing observation that rally-goers would soon be “peacefully and patriotically” marching to the Capitol."

so, at least for Trump, this heads to discovery. To which, re civil conspiracy, the judge noted.  

"....the President’s confidant, Roger Stone. Stone posted on Parler in late December that he had met with the President “to ensure that Donald Trump continues as our president.” Shortly thereafter, Stone spoke with Tarrio, and later he used the Oath Keepers as his security detail for the January 6 Rally. The court does not rely on these allegations to establish the President’s knowledge of the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers. Other alleged facts make that inference plausible. That said, Stone’s connections to both the President and these groups in the days leading up to January 6th is a well-pleaded fact. Discovery might prove that connection to be an important one."



			https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21266365/mehta-2-18-22-thompson-v-trump-opinion.pdf


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Harding was worse than Hoover.  Hoover was an honest man of principles in office at the wrong time.
> 
> T was the worst President ever.  His most fervent supporters (sons, daughter, Rudy, pillowguy) are all now laughingstocks.


We are defintely lit- kicking ass and taking names.  Excellent polling, firm diplomacy that displays international leadership, precise management of domestic policy that has been efficient in keeping inflation in check, borders secure, and cohesive/unifying pandemic policy.  

We can only be so lucky to be led by a crack team of foreign policy experts, domestic policy experts, and public health gurus.  And back to the polls, excellent work in garnering support and unifying the American people.  It's like we've began an American renaissance.  You couldn't be prouder.  

Can't forget about our crown jewels - NYC, SF, Chicago, Baltimore.  Never has a political party done so much for their constituents.   Ahh, forgot LA.  Can't forget LA, the city and county made up of a rare breed of people who can hold their breath for extended periods of time.  I heard the mayor is thinking about competing as a free diver.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Why bother?  The DOJ and NY AG are giving him enough trouble.  There is a possibility that the "richest President ever" may need to beg a judge for a Public Defender.


nice !  clear path for General DeSantis in 2024


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I don't belong to any political party, a decision I reached after trying our several.  My partisanship position is anti-trumpist.  What's yours?


Liar


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Why bother?  The DOJ and NY AG are giving him enough trouble.  There is a possibility that the "richest President ever" may need to beg a judge for a Public Defender.


Do you ever ask yourself -- "who cares?"  I suppose media outlets with terrible ratings care.  cnn and msdnc hope that trumpy stays in the limelight long enough to maybe get a ratings rebound..


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I don't belong to any political party, a decision I reached after trying our several.  My partisanship position is anti-trumpist.  What's yours?


This is pretty funny.  Again, what exactly is the outcome of this circa 2020 position?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Do you ever ask yourself -- "who cares?"  I suppose media outlets with terrible ratings care.  cnn and msdnc hope that trumpy stays in the limelight long enough to maybe get a ratings rebound..


T and a little t live in his head all day and night.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

what-happened said:


> Do you ever ask yourself -- "who cares?"  I suppose media outlets with terrible ratings care.  cnn and msdnc hope that trumpy stays in the limelight long enough to maybe get a ratings rebound..


God knows they are trying.  Even the attack on Joe Rogan has fizzled and boarders on backfiring…..Especially when everyone who lined up behind Neil Young realized he used it as an opportunity to sell that catalogue he pulled to Amazon for quite a mint!


----------



## crush

*Pelosi says Putin will pay even without Ukraine invasion: you can’t ‘bully the world and take a walk’*

Putin is like T now.  No matter what he does, he will pay dearly.  If he invades, he pays.  No invasion, he still pays.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's just one part of the ongoing lawfare but in this context interesting that just yesterday a judge ruled in the ongoing civil conspiracy suit re several 1/6 figures that Trump (but not Jr. , Guilliani, Brooks, etc) remains on the hook:
> 
> "Immediately before directing them to the Capitol, he told rally-goers that they would need to “fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” When those supporters did “fight like hell,” just as he had told them to, the President did not demand they act “peacefully and patriotically.” He instead tweeted that “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country.”.....These other statements by the President stand in stark contrast to his passing observation that rally-goers would soon be “peacefully and patriotically” marching to the Capitol."
> 
> so, at least for Trump, this heads to discovery. To which, re civil conspiracy, the judge noted.
> 
> "....the President’s confidant, Roger Stone. Stone posted on Parler in late December that he had met with the President “to ensure that Donald Trump continues as our president.” Shortly thereafter, Stone spoke with Tarrio, and later he used the Oath Keepers as his security detail for the January 6 Rally. The court does not rely on these allegations to establish the President’s knowledge of the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers. Other alleged facts make that inference plausible. That said, Stone’s connections to both the President and these groups in the days leading up to January 6th is a well-pleaded fact. Discovery might prove that connection to be an important one."
> 
> 
> 
> https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21266365/mehta-2-18-22-thompson-v-trump-opinion.pdf


1. It’s a civil suit. Not a criminal or impeachment.  The standard of proof is much much lower
2. The charge there is conspiracy. Specifically an implied conspiracy.  I’ve done a few of these. They are really hard to prove because if there isn’t an express agreement you have to somehow get evidence to prove an implied one
3. The ruling was on demur (or the equivalent in that jurisdiction). It says if the complaint is taken at face value, does it outline a valid claim. It’s not a ruling on evidence. The motion assumes the evidence exists. It’s different than a summary judgment motion which weighs evidence. 
4. That’s why the judge emphasized discovery. It’s possible they find evidence to support the charge. It’s possible they don’t.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. It’s a civil suit. Not a criminal or impeachment.  The standard of proof is much much lower
> 2. The charge there is conspiracy. Specifically an implied conspiracy.  I’ve done a few of these. They are really hard to prove because if there isn’t an express agreement you have to somehow get evidence to prove an implied one
> 3. The ruling was on demur (or the equivalent in that jurisdiction). It says if the complaint is taken at face value, does it outline a valid claim. It’s not a ruling on evidence. The motion assumes the evidence exists. It’s different than a summary judgment motion which weighs evidence.
> 4. That’s why the judge emphasized discovery. It’s possible they find evidence to support the charge. It’s possible they don’t.


Excellent job counselor.


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> 1. It’s a civil suit. Not a criminal or impeachment.  The standard of proof is much much lower
> 2. The charge there is conspiracy. Specifically an implied conspiracy.  I’ve done a few of these. They are really hard to prove because if there isn’t an express agreement you have to somehow get evidence to prove an implied one
> 3. The ruling was on demur (or the equivalent in that jurisdiction). It says if the complaint is taken at face value, does it outline a valid claim. It’s not a ruling on evidence. The motion assumes the evidence exists. It’s different than a summary judgment motion which weighs evidence.
> 4. That’s why the judge emphasized discovery. It’s possible they find evidence to support the charge. It’s possible they don’t.


Sure.  It's a ruling on motion to dismiss.  Probably tours the DC circuit and supremes. Long way from a T deposition.  But Mehta speaks to peaceable nature of speech (or lack thereof).  Comments re degrees of separation between OK, Willard and T are interesting.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I recall someone posted clips of ds using the same “fight like hell” response.   If that’s your smoking gun it’s legally a poor one.


Taken in context with what all else was being said by others you’d have to be fool or a strictly partisan fool to see otherwise. Lots of things are legal that aren’t right, moral and might even put you in serious danger when perpetrated against the wrong people. Like I have heard said, “you may hear Harleys, you may not”.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> God knows they are trying.  Even the attack on Joe Rogan has fizzled and boarders on backfiring…..Especially when everyone who lined up behind Neil Young realized he used it as an opportunity to sell that catalogue he pulled to Amazon for quite a mint!


You sure about that! Amazon? Lol! Try again . . . and your timing is all wrong as well. But what do you know that you aren’t told to know? Lol!

Oh, and even Rogan admitted he needed to clean up his act, sooooo. Again, lol!


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Sure.  It's a ruling on motion to dismiss.  Probably tours the DC circuit and supremes. Long way from a T deposition.  But Mehta speaks to peaceable nature of speech (or lack thereof).  Comments re degrees of separation between OK, Willard and T are interesting.


Meh. He’s a bit of a partisan hack (most of the federal judges are these days). I do agree with his opinion though…a civil case for conspiracy was stated, trump wasn’t acting as president and therefore not immune.   I think it’s almost an impossible case to make out but not before trump is subjected to uncomfortable discovery.   If it holds it bodes ill for politicians on both sides who use speech in a wink and a node to spur their supporters to violence.  Some ds like waters could find themselves in trouble too for events like blm including the vp


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Meh. He’s a bit of a partisan hack (most of the federal judges are these days). I do agree with his opinion though…a civil case for conspiracy was stated, trump wasn’t acting as president and therefore not immune.   I think it’s almost an impossible case to make out but not before trump is subjected to uncomfortable discovery.   If it holds it bodes ill for politicians on both sides who use speech in a wink and a node to spur their supporters to violence.  Some ds like waters could find themselves in trouble too for events like blm including the vp


What comes around goes around.  *Boom* *Boom* *Boom*, the Boomerang Effect!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> You sure about that! Amazon? Lol! Try again . . . and your timing is all wrong as well. But what do you know that you aren’t told to know? Lol!
> 
> Oh, and even Rogan admitted he needed to clean up his act, sooooo. Again, lol!


- Yes

- Timing?

- Never said he didn’t have room to grow.  That’s why the Cancel Culture failed and the narrative is waning….


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I don't belong to any political party, a decision I reached after trying our several.  My partisanship position is anti-trumpist.  What's yours?


Anti-troll


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Meh. He’s a bit of a partisan hack (most of the federal judges are these days). I do agree with his opinion though…a civil case for conspiracy was stated, trump wasn’t acting as president and therefore not immune.   I think it’s almost an impossible case to make out but not before trump is subjected to uncomfortable discovery.   If it holds it bodes ill for politicians on both sides who use speech in a wink and a node to spur their supporters to violence.  Some ds like waters could find themselves in trouble too for events like blm including the vp


In a huge koinky dink aoc just laid out in a tweet a similar accusation against tucker Carlson for inciting his fans. It will be completely awesome if in addition to suits against politicians against this stuff we start dragging in the media and the ladies of the view get caught up in it. Take the battle to the courts!  Clog them with civil lawsuits!  It will be so damn epic!  It will be hilarious to see the elites tear each other apart using their own elitist tools.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Now THAT'S trolling.  Grace please take note.


Oh, my goodness old man.

You've a disgusting history that will follow you to your grave.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> Oh, my goodness old man.
> 
> You've a disgusting history that will follow you to your grave.


What do you find disgusting?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> What do you find disgusting?


My advice to you is to get right with the creator.
You know yourself; you can't fool yourself.
You responded because you know.


----------



## crush

*Queen Elizabeth II tests positive for COVID*


----------



## crush

Surgeon General Vivek Murthy tests positive for COVID-19


----------



## crush

*Penn's Lia Thomas narrowly beats Yale's Iszac Henig in 100 free at Ivy League Championships*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> In a huge koinky dink aoc just laid out in a tweet a similar accusation against tucker Carlson for inciting his fans. It will be completely awesome if in addition to suits against politicians against this stuff we start dragging in the media and the ladies of the view get caught up in it. Take the battle to the courts!  Clog them with civil lawsuits!  It will be so damn epic!  It will be hilarious to see the elites tear each other apart using their own elitist tools.


I was under the impression you think of yourself as “elite”?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> I was under the impression you think of yourself as “elite”?


Apostate


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Apostate


I just heard a commercial on the radio telling folks to be on the look out for early heads up on potential stroke, blood clot or heart attacks symptoms. It was all about how to catch early warning and then get your ass over to ER.  This is not something to mess around with the mercial said.  First time ever in my life have i heard such a weird info commercial.  Also, my pal sells life insurance.  His company has seen a huge increase for potential payouts.


----------



## crush

The "police" took their name tags off.  A big UN plane flew into town with "troops" to help out the local cops.  This is some weird stuff.


----------



## crush

Please buy a Trucker a my pillow and you will get 66% off and a trucker will be able to sleep or sit well on his way to DC with a my pillow from Big Mike.  I'm heading out to Barstow to wish them all safe travels.


----------



## crush

*We went from "15 days to slow the spread" to "you're fired if you don't get the jab" to "your bank accounts are frozen if you protest against us."





*


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> You sure about that! Amazon? Lol! Try again . . . and your timing is all wrong as well. But what do you know that you aren’t told to know? Lol!
> 
> Oh, and even Rogan admitted he needed to clean up his act, sooooo. Again, lol!


What do you mean clean up his act?  What did he say?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> The "police" took their name tags off.  A big UN plane flew into town with "troops" to help out the local cops.  This is some weird stuff.
> 
> View attachment 12974


Um, that guy certainly is a strong advocate for my body my choice, but I'm not sure I would take vaccine or any health advice from him given the cancer stick and Molson belly.


----------



## crush

Men stealing rankings and medals from girls is insane.  This is Ivy league at it's best.  I hear a guy who got cut in soccer and is now looking to be a women so she can play with girls in soccer this year.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Hong Kong is providing us a fascinating case study in covid panic. Hong Kong is experiencing (despite a crackdown with npis at the insistence of mainland China) an omicron surge. It is around 80% vaccinated but the distribution is the worst you could get with very low (in some brackets as low as 40%) distribution in the elderly and children.  75% of deaths right now are in the unvaccinated and Hong Kong’s death rate is accelerating quickly (having just surged passed Norway) having once been the lowest in the world. The reason why is they have a workers but not general vaccine mandate so the elderly are refusing to take it. With the leaky sinovac vaccine doing little to curb infection and hospitals already at capacity (due to using hospitals to quarantine Hong Kong is already beyond full capacity and using field hospitals) it’s shaping up to be a disaster.  Covid zero also means there is a lot of dry tinder there since there isn’t much natural immunity to slow the wave down.

people there have been skeptical of the Chinese made vaccine and are only taking it if forced. So vaccine uptake in children was very low. Parents reasoned the leaky vaccine doesn’t protect them and they are already not vulnerable. Then a 4 year old boy (with some other complications) died.  His death was reported to have covid “contributing” factors. The newspaper and government went all in blaring the news on every tv and media. They lowered the vaccination age to 3.  There’s now a rush on vaccinating the children (where the problem isn’t) but not the elderly.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Hong Kong is providing us a fascinating case study in covid panic. Hong Kong is experiencing (despite a crackdown with npis at the insistence of mainland China) an omicron surge. It is around 80% vaccinated but the distribution is the worst you could get with very low (in some brackets as low as 40%) distribution in the elderly and children.  75% of deaths right now are in the unvaccinated and Hong Kong’s death rate is accelerating quickly (having just surged passed Norway) having once been the lowest in the world. The reason why is they have a workers but not general vaccine mandate so the elderly are refusing to take it. With the leaky sinovac vaccine doing little to curb infection and hospitals already at capacity (due to using hospitals to quarantine Hong Kong is already beyond full capacity and using field hospitals) it’s shaping up to be a disaster.  Covid zero also means there is a lot of dry tinder there since there isn’t much natural immunity to slow the wave down.
> 
> people there have been skeptical of the Chinese made vaccine and are only taking it if forced. So vaccine uptake in children was very low. Parents reasoned the leaky vaccine doesn’t protect them and they are already not vulnerable. Then a 4 year old boy (with some other complications) died.  His death was reported to have covid “contributing” factors. The newspaper and government went all in blaring the news on every tv and media. They lowered the vaccination age to 3.  There’s now a rush on vaccinating the children (where the problem isn’t) but not the elderly.


That want the kids Grace T.  It's obvious now.  Something is in these jabs that hurt reproduction.


----------



## crush

*The New York Times reported this past weekend that the CDC has chosen not to publish huge amounts of COVID data, instead keeping it secret, because it fears that the information would cause ‘vaccine hesitancy’ among the American public.*  Heart attacks, AIDS, Myocarditis, Bells Palsy, Stroke and big time blood clots.   

Walensky also acknowledged for only the first time last month that over 75% of COVID deaths were people “who had at least four comorbidities” and were “unwell to begin with.”

Dad4 and Walensky going over the numbers that look really bad for their agenda.  I just heard of another person we know who just died in their sleep.


----------



## crush

Wendy Rogers is going off today.  My gosh, she must know something we dont.  Here are a few of her post today....

She says, "The Vaccine is a bio weapon and is killing people."  She also is saying that two folks we thought were women are actually men.  Did she get hacked?  "Trump won and Joe has dementia."  "Welcome to all my frens over on Truth Social! This feels like a 2016 Trump rally. Exciting!"
"World Trade Center 7 was never hit by an airplane but still “collapsed”.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Looks like we are fighting crazy with crazy…….


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Looks like we are fighting crazy with crazy…….


----------



## crush

I talked with one of my old friends yesterday and he said it's all Russia's fault and now he thinks t and Putin did the whole Jab thing to take over the world.  He really thinks this is the end.  I told him it's only the beginning and he said to, "go get a job...."


----------



## crush

NPR just put this out.  BA.2 Variant is now here and is taking over and spreading like nothing we have ever seen, like ever.  Gates warned us all not to go back to normal.  Oh no you don't.  You get your mask back on and you better get your jabs and be fully jabbed or else.  

*More contagious version of omicron spreads in U.S., fueling worries*
February 21, 20227:00 AM ET

As the omicron surge continues to decline in the U.S., infectious disease experts are keeping a close eye on an even more contagious version of the variant that could once again foil the nation's hopes of getting back to normal.

The virus, known as* BA.2,* is a strain of the highly contagious omicron variant that appears to spread even more easily — about 30% more easily.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Looks like we are fighting crazy with crazy…….


Sounds like a trump rally.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds like a trump rally.


More like a statement about the state of US Politics.

I don’t think either side has a right to call the other crazy…


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds like a trump rally.











						HAPPY REAL PRESIDENT'S DAY!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

OK, this is insane.  I just heard from a dear pal that is a big time stock dude.  You guys, he's the real deal and I mean that and not making this up.  He has a house on the beach, ok.  He told me he bought stock in funeral homes last year.  One of them is up 107% and the other on is 67% 4Q is coming out today.  Insane.  Look all, I'm happy "some" of you have been making a killing the last two years.  I know some of you have your job still.  I am so happy for you too.  Others have lost family members, been fired, forced to take jab and then passed away and now families are in mourning.  I just heard from another friend that their friend died suddenly, playing racket ball.  I pray for everyone that is suffering during these times.  I know I satire around at times but this is not joking.


----------



## Grace T.

Of course they are doing this......









						The C.D.C. Isn’t Publishing Large Portions of the Covid Data It Collects
					

The agency has withheld critical data on boosters, hospitalizations and, until recently, wastewater analyses.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> More like a statement about the state of US Politics.
> 
> I don’t think either side has a right to call the other crazy…


The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


democrat activist groups chased Sinema into. A Bathroom, the Arizona Democrat party censured her

but maybe she is considered a “crazy” by you


----------



## crush

*CDC: Pediatric ER visits skyrocket for injuries and eating disorders during the pandemic*
*Drug poisoning or overdose visits went up to 70%*


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


Makes sense - vaccinating and masking healthy young children is just so sane. So sciency and rational - love it.


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


It wasn't always so.  The Rs were marginally saner than the Ds for a long time, and the exceptions were obvious (Nixon, Reagan toward the end).  Since Trump took over, things are nuts there.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Makes sense - vaccinating and masking healthy young children is just so sane. So sciency and rational - love it.


Did you think vaccines are normally given to sick people?

Check out your kids’ immunization records.  It’s full of shots given to them on days they were feeling well.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


Now do the Democrats…..throw stones in glass houses lately?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


That sounds like "my shit don't stink" to me.  Valid point about censure but Im more concerned about policy.

To me crazy, are things like defund the police and no cash bail.  In the lefts defense many are  running away from that since the polling is so bad. (Good for Bernie for not wavering )

What would you consider crazy from the right?  Guns and abortion?  Maybe, but those are more a long held difference of opinion then a radical change in policy.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Did you think vaccines are normally given to sick people?
> 
> Check out your kids’ immunization records.  It’s full of shots given to them on days they were feeling well.


Key word being IMMUNIZE….Tell me again about the immunity the Covid shot gives you?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> What would you consider crazy from the right?  Guns and abortion?  Maybe,


Abortion has killed or stolen over 81,000,000+ babies over the years.  That is insane!!!  Think about that for 81 seconds.  Snap your finger 81 times and that represents 81,000,000 deaths.  These people always had a plan.  Plan for a Parent in the Hood to "kill" child and a Plan to Inject everyone with poison.  Just wait watfly, this is only going to get crazier.  If you want to live on this planet moving forward, you can;t kill bro, end of story and no, "please, let me kill a few more times."  Nope, no more death and no more murder.  No more cheating, spying or lying.  You just can;t be here anymore with that attitude and heart.  Seriously, you think it's crazy that someone like me wants the kids to be born on planet earth?  Or some crazy neighbor has a gun is acting crazy?   Tomorrow is 2.22.2022.  The Sacred Feminine and the Sacred Masculine are joining forces and have made peace. Women will be respected again and the kids will be safe and protected.  It's happening finally.  I hope you will get behind the cause to help all the kids. You don't have to convert to Yeshua.  That was a western lie.  You need to learn to be like the Christ.  Yeshua brought the Christ way.  This shall never be forced down throats, only a choice to love or act out of fear, which usually leads to anger and fits of rage and then murder  Darkness or light. I love you so much. I'm praying for you and rooting for you big time. You can do it. Best part, you dont have to go to church to be saved  I hope you stay and play for free on earth bro. Total Utopia is coming


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Now do the Democrats…..throw stones in glass houses lately?


I would disappoint you as I wouldn’t take things out of context or be able to put the spin on it that is required to make it seem the way you have conditioned to see . . . whereas things like stop the steal are right out in the open and very, very popular within the rank and file.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It wasn't always so.  The Rs were marginally saner than the Ds for a long time, and the exceptions were obvious (Noxon, Reagan toward the end).  Since Trump took over, things are nuts there.


lives rent free in your head.  trumpy is going to have rent free occupancy for some time.  so much winning going on, you would think he would fade into obscurity  - but they won't let him. sanity.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That sounds like "my shit don't stink" to me.  Valid point about censure but Im more concerned about policy.
> 
> To me crazy, are things like defund the police and no cash bail.  In the lefts defense many are  running away from that since the polling is so bad. (Good for Bernie for not wavering )
> 
> What would you consider crazy from the right?  Guns and abortion?  Maybe, but those are more a long held difference of opinion then a radical change in policy.


Democrats have there own unique problems like trying to play fair after seeing ample evidence they don’t have a partner anymore.
Defund the police? Seriously , get real. You are clinging to a nonentity, aka that never was a thing (except on nighttime faux).
Crazy is stop the steal, Jewish laser beams, flying to Cancun during a deadly emergency, saying that basic gun regulations that the majority of Americans want are an attempt to take your guns etc


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Did you think vaccines are normally given to sick people?
> 
> Check out your kids’ immunization records.  It’s full of shots given to them on days they were feeling well.


Intersting take from you....immunize against infections disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children.  Does SARS-COV-2 fall into this category? 

Even pfizer knows this.  Wonder why U5 vaccines have hit a wall?  And why do you continue to compare apples to oranges?  The current vaccination schedule for children is based on years of research and proven reliability


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Democrats have there own unique problems like trying to play fair after seeing ample evidence they don’t have a partner anymore.
> Defund the police? Seriously , get real. You are clinging to a nonentity, aka that never was a thing (except on nighttime faux).
> Crazy is stop the steal, Jewish laser beams, flying to Cancun during a deadly emergency, saying that basic gun regulations that the majority of Americans want are an attempt to take your guns etc


you are a crack up.  I doubt you believe what you type but please go on. Defund the police wasn't a thing?...crazy.  It was a thing until someone realized it shouldn't be a thing and redefined what defunding the police means.  Believe the hype though.    Nahh, no way it was crazy.  

I do love how you give very small sample sizes of things you deem crazy.  Sniping (pun intendted) no doubt.  What are these jewish laser beams you are talking about?  

But let's get back to all of the winning we are doing right now - borders secured, foreign policy on point, coherent public health policy, varsity team members taking care of business all over the world and at home, coherent energy policy to shore up coherent foreign policy.  Winning all the way around.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Democrats have there own unique problems like trying to play fair after seeing ample evidence they don’t have a partner anymore.
> Defund the police? Seriously , get real. You are clinging to a nonentity, aka that never was a thing (except on nighttime faux).
> Crazy is stop the steal, Jewish laser beams, flying to Cancun during a deadly emergency, saying that basic gun regulations that the majority of Americans want are an attempt to take your guns etc


Doubling down on "your shit don't stink" I see.  You know full well that many cities defunded police, and you know that reallocated resources is the same thing.  I can't recall, what Republican policies were based on Jewish laser beams or how were people harmed by Cruz going to Cancun?  Bad move but at least Cruz can admit it was a mistake.

You're nothing but a pure partisan.  You said it yourself, your crazies aren't a big deal.  It's actually sad what the Democrat party has become because of certain woke policies.  Once the party of free speech, fighting the "man" and individualism, Dem's have now become the party of censorship, compliance to authority and the elite knows best.

I know I won't convince you, but may be you'll take a pause to think about.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> I would disappoint you as I wouldn’t take things out of context or be able to put the spin on it that is required to make it seem the way you have conditioned to see . . . whereas things like stop the steal are right out in the open and very, very popular within the rank and file.


Didn’t think you were capable of unbiased observation.  Thanks for the validation.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Intersting take from you....immunize against infections disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children.  Does SARS-COV-2 fall into this category?
> 
> Even pfizer knows this.  Wonder why U5 vaccines have hit a wall?  And why do you continue to compare apples to oranges?  The current vaccination schedule for children is based on years of research and proven reliability


You were the one who said it was ridiculous to vaccinate a healthy person.  

Now, you can admit it is a stupid argument, or you can cling to it like a barnacle on the Titanic.  Up to you.


----------



## NorCalDad

Hamsters’ Testicles Shrink After Being Infected With COVID, Study Finds
					

The virus was delivered intranasally to the rodents, with researchers finding an acute decrease in sperm count and testosterone.




					www.vice.com


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You were the one who said it was ridiculous to vaccinate a healthy person.
> 
> Now, you can admit it is a stupid argument, or you can cling to it like a barnacle on the Titanic.  Up to you.


Love how you twist my words..I clearly said healthy children, not healthy people.  I know you are the agenda and narrative king so I won't hold it against you.

How do you know the titanic had barnacles?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Didn’t think you were capable of unbiased observation.  Thanks for the validation.


By all means, be my guest. Show me some crazy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Hamsters’ Testicles Shrink After Being Infected With COVID, Study Finds
> 
> 
> The virus was delivered intranasally to the rodents, with researchers finding an acute decrease in sperm count and testosterone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


Told ya!


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Hamsters’ Testicles Shrink After Being Infected With COVID, Study Finds
> 
> 
> The virus was delivered intranasally to the rodents, with researchers finding an acute decrease in sperm count and testosterone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


When I finally test negative I'll get a good measurement and confirm or dispute the results of the study.  Do you happen to know if I should use a cloth tape or calipers?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Love how you twist my words..I clearly said healthy children, not healthy people.  I know you are the agenda and narrative king so I won't hold it against you.
> 
> How do you know the titanic had barnacles?


I saw a documentary that say's 100% no way that ship hit a piece of ice.  It was blown up because three dudes were against the 13 families looking to start war and make some money.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> When I finally test negative I'll get a good measurement and confirm or dispute the results of the study.  Do you happen to know if I should use a cloth tape or calipers?


Who knew you can have so much fun in the name of science!


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Who knew you can have so much fun in the name of science!


I feel bad for the hamsters.  They had to die to get measured.  I thought gerbils had it bad with Richard Gere.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Love how you twist my words..I clearly said healthy children, not healthy people.  I know you are the agenda and narrative king so I won't hold it against you.
> 
> How do you know the titanic had barnacles?


Ok.  You mocked the idea of vaccinating healthy children.

Which is a pretty darn stupid argument.  We vaccinate healthy kids all the time.   

Guess you decided to cling to your bad argument like a barnacle on the Lusitania.  Let me know if you ever figure out that the ship sank.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Ok.  You mocked the idea of vaccinating healthy children.
> 
> Which is a pretty darn stupid argument.  We vaccinate healthy kids all the time.
> 
> Guess you decided to cling to your bad argument like a barnacle on the Lusitania.  Let me know if you ever figure out that the ship sank.


What do we vaccinate healthy children against? * Let's try this again:  immunize against infections disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children. Does SARS-COV-2 fall into this category?* How dangerous exactly is covid to healthy young children?  Do you understand how we normally get to authorizing vaccines for children?  Are you upset the FDA is slow rolling approval for ulittles?  

  I do appreciate your reference to sinking ships, barnacles, etc.  It's a great distraction tool but a nice touch.  I didn't know the Lusitania had barnacles, they must have been unstable and explosive.

Besides, the bottom has fallen out of mandates, and masking for that matter.  I know both are near and dear to your heart.  I am up for another boat reference though...maybe pick something more recent. 

Have you ever heard the term:  Big hand little map?


----------



## crush

Bill Gates' Genius Argument Against Mask Mandate Critics
					

What a comedian.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AntonioChavez  SOURCES ➡️TBA  CREDITS ➡️Outro: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNSscFeZ…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> When I finally test negative I'll get a good measurement and confirm or dispute the results of the study.  Do you happen to know if I should use a cloth tape or calipers?


yard stick. you over the brain fog and the lethargy yet?


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> yard stick. you over the brain fog and the lethargy yet?


Yep, just some very mild congestion.  Never was that tired other than the 1st couple days.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Doubling down on "your shit don't stink" I see.  You know full well that many cities defunded police, and you know that reallocated resources is the same thing.  I can't recall, what Republican policies were based on Jewish laser beams or how were people harmed by Cruz going to Cancun?  Bad move but at least Cruz can admit it was a mistake.
> 
> You're nothing but a pure partisan.  You said it yourself, your crazies aren't a big deal.  It's actually sad what the Democrat party has become because of certain woke policies.  Once the party of free speech, fighting the "man" and individualism, Dem's have now become the party of censorship, compliance to authority and the elite knows best.
> 
> I know I won't convince you, but may be you'll take a pause to think about.


C'mon, @watfly. You heard AOC - it's the child tax credit expiration that is behind the increase in crime. It's only the beginning of the gaslighting, rationalizations, and obfuscations that the Borg Troll Collective on this board will expose as the mid-terms approach.

Ocasio-Cortez further insisted that the recent election of Mayor Eric Adams, a former NYPD cop, on a law-and-order platform was not “evidence of some sort of decision around policing,” and she accused America of ignoring the reasons behind the rise in crime that accompanied the COVID-19 pandemic.

“Because we run away from substantive discussions about this, we don’t want to say some of the things that are obvious, like, Gee, the child-tax credit just ran out, on December 31st, and now people are stealing baby formula,” AOC said.









						AOC blames crime surge on child tax credit ending, calls Congress ‘s–t show’
					

New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez whined about her job and blamed the nation’s crime surge on the expiration of the expanded child tax credit in a new interview.




					nypost.com


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> What do we vaccinate healthy children against? * Let's try this again:  immunize against infections disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children. Does SARS-COV-2 fall into this category?* How dangerous exactly is covid to healthy young children?  Do you understand how we normally get to authorizing vaccines for children?  Are you upset the FDA is slow rolling approval for ulittles?
> 
> I do appreciate your reference to sinking ships, barnacles, etc.  It's a great distraction tool but a nice touch.  I didn't know the Lusitania had barnacles, they must have been unstable and explosive.
> 
> Besides, the bottom has fallen out of mandates, and masking for that matter.  I know both are near and dear to your heart.  I am up for another boat reference though...maybe pick something more recent.
> 
> Have you ever heard the term:  Big hand little map?


Before we start a new conversation, I want to finish following up on your previous thought.

You claimed it was a bad idea to vaccinate healthy children. 

It is a completely untenable position.  The vast majority of vaccines produced are administered to healthy children.  Vaccines aren’t even effective after you already are sick.

There is no question whether it is normal to vaccinate a healthy child.  It is quite common.

The question is whether you are capable of recognizing an error in your argument and adjusting to a more rational position.  So far, the answer appears to be ”no.”


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Yep, just some very mild congestion.  Never was that tired other than the 1st couple days.


I'm older. It lasted longer. or..... your vax was better than mine


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> C'mon, @watfly. You heard AOC - it's the child tax credit expiration that is behind the increase in crime. It's only the beginning of the gaslighting, rationalizations, and obfuscations that the Borg Troll Collective on this board will expose as the mid-terms approach.
> 
> Ocasio-Cortez further insisted that the recent election of Mayor Eric Adams, a former NYPD cop, on a law-and-order platform was not “evidence of some sort of decision around policing,” and she accused America of ignoring the reasons behind the rise in crime that accompanied the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> “Because we run away from substantive discussions about this, we don’t want to say some of the things that are obvious, like, Gee, the child-tax credit just ran out, on December 31st, and now people are stealing baby formula,” AOC said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AOC blames crime surge on child tax credit ending, calls Congress ‘s–t show’
> 
> 
> New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez whined about her job and blamed the nation’s crime surge on the expiration of the expanded child tax credit in a new interview.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


It's all a scam with a plan.  I watched cops sit back and watch criminals destroy small businesses in Santa Monica almost two years ago.  It looked odd and staged to me.  I think were all in a big movie and we aint't seen nothing yet.  These guys are ruthless.  No more jab talk or mask chats, just STFU and obey.  I wonder what those Mother Truckers will do in America tmrw?  I met these folks driving from OC to North Carolina and back. These folks are tough.  God help us all to get along, jab or no jab.  Mask or maskless.  Black or white.  Poor or poorer.  Rich or snobs.  Believer in the teachings of Yeshua or atheist.  Fat or slim.  Drunk or sober.  Meat eaters or Vegan.  We need to all find love and then leave each other alone with regards to politics and religion.  Education is a complete disaster and needs to be re-set and re-booted with choice.  We need more choices and selections, like a vending machine, but for education and what you want to do with all your free time.  True freedom is when ALL of us can do whatever the heck we want, without getting retaliated against or spied on by big fucking brother.  We have those who spy, snitch, bitches, cheaters, liars, back stabbers and those who ruin others lives for their gain only.  I forgive and offer compassion to those who want to change or those who will never change.  Their stuck in pride and self pity.  Fools!!!


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> C'mon, @watfly. You heard AOC - it's the child tax credit expiration that is behind the increase in crime. It's only the beginning of the gaslighting, rationalizations, and obfuscations that the Borg Troll Collective on this board will expose as the mid-terms approach.
> 
> Ocasio-Cortez further insisted that the recent election of Mayor Eric Adams, a former NYPD cop, on a law-and-order platform was not “evidence of some sort of decision around policing,” and she accused America of ignoring the reasons behind the rise in crime that accompanied the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> “Because we run away from substantive discussions about this, we don’t want to say some of the things that are obvious, like, Gee, the child-tax credit just ran out, on December 31st, and now people are stealing baby formula,” AOC said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AOC blames crime surge on child tax credit ending, calls Congress ‘s–t show’
> 
> 
> New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez whined about her job and blamed the nation’s crime surge on the expiration of the expanded child tax credit in a new interview.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


My bad, it was the Republicans that were behind defunding police according to Pelosi.

Like I said before this is going to be the year of the parent, doesn't matter what party you belong to you don't F with kids.  Actually I may have to change it to the year of the Mama Bear.  C'mon guys step it up.









						Mother Tackles Suspect Accused of Punching 4-Year-Old Son in Times Square
					

Rafaela Rivera said she chased and caught a man who allegedly punched her son in the head in New York City.




					www.newsweek.com
				












						Virginia mom's takedown of school board over mask hypocrisy goes viral: 'We the parents are fed up'
					

A Virginia mom goes viral after calling out a school board member for her mask hypcorisy at a board meeting last week.




					www.foxnews.com
				












						Mom of Chicago train robbery suspect recognizes him, drags him to police station: Reports
					

The suspect sought in a Chicago train robbery has been identified as a Loyola University student recognized by his own mother, who reportedly dragged him into the police station to turn himself in.




					nypost.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My bad, it was the Republicans that were behind defunding police according to Pelosi.
> 
> Like I said before this is going to be the year of the parent, doesn't matter what party you belong to you don't F with kids.  Actually I may have to change it to the year of the Mama Bear.  C'mon guys step it up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Tackles Suspect Accused of Punching 4-Year-Old Son in Times Square
> 
> 
> Rafaela Rivera said she chased and caught a man who allegedly punched her son in the head in New York City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Virginia mom's takedown of school board over mask hypocrisy goes viral: 'We the parents are fed up'
> 
> 
> A Virginia mom goes viral after calling out a school board member for her mask hypcorisy at a board meeting last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mom of Chicago train robbery suspect recognizes him, drags him to police station: Reports
> 
> 
> The suspect sought in a Chicago train robbery has been identified as a Loyola University student recognized by his own mother, who reportedly dragged him into the police station to turn himself in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Rape is up 246% in Atlanta.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Before we start a new conversation, I want to finish following up on your previous thought.
> 
> You claimed it was a bad idea to vaccinate healthy children.
> 
> It is a completely untenable position.  The vast majority of vaccines produced are administered to healthy children.  Vaccines aren’t even effective after you already are sick.
> 
> There is no question whether it is normal to vaccinate a healthy child.  It is quite common.
> 
> The question is whether you are capable of recognizing an error in your argument and adjusting to a more rational position.  So far, the answer appears to be ”no.”


You continue to miss his point entirely, but I suspect you already know that.  May be its a fear induced blind spot.

Children without comorbidities (aka healthy children) have no serious risk from Covid.  Why would you give someone medical treatment that they don't need?  Out of fear maybe, but there is no rational reason to do so.  Even if it prevented transmission, which it clearly does not, you might be able to cobble together an argument...but just a fear based one.  The vaccination also doesn't provide protection in to adult hood, it barely lasts a few months.  It's not like the HPV vaccination which is given as a older child to protect in adult hood.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> I'm older. It lasted longer. or..... your vax was better than mine


I wasn't boosted.  I think its pretty random as to the extent of what symptoms you get.


----------



## crush

*California parents furious after biologically male counselors slept in camp cabins with fifth-grade girls*
*Camp policy allows sleeping arrangements based on gender identity*


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I wasn't boosted.  I think its pretty random as to the extent of what symptoms you get.


I prayed you would stay away, no matter what your doctor told you.  Great job bro


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*California trans child molester Hannah Tubbs gloats over light sentence in jailhouse phone calls*


"I’m gonna plead out to it, plead guilty," Tubbs says in one recording. "They’re gonna stick me on probation, and it’s gonna be dropped, it’s gonna be done, I won’t have to register, won’t have to do nothing."

"You won’t have to register?" her father asks on the other line later in the conversation.

"I won’t have to do none of that," Tubbs replies.

"So what are they going to do to you then?"

"Nothing," Tubbs answers, then laughs.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> I prayed you would stay away, no matter what your doctor told you.  Great job bro


Ha, ha, I think it had more to do with a lack of motivation more than anything else.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Ha, ha, I think it had more to do with a* lack of motivation* more than anything else.


Ok, that's alright with me bro if your left side of the brain told you that.  I remember back a few posts and months ago, you said you would do whatever your doctor told you to do, because that's what all reasonable folks would do like you.  Right?  I don't even have a doctor so I don;t even get to play.  I am poor man but rich in health, happiness and hope.  My wife is my doctor so to speak and she is spot on and has helped me more then any doctor ever could.  We need more like my wife that teach about, "Wellness before the Illness."


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *Penn's Lia Thomas narrowly beats Yale's Iszac Henig in 100 free at Ivy League Championships*
> View attachment 12973


This is a perfect example of the typical right wing nutter.  Spewing anti-vax/mask bs at a kiddie soccer website isn't working to your satisfaction, so dog whistle some transphobia instead.  Classic. Well, you and your fellow racist/xenophobic/homophobic/transphobic buddies already have other threads for those topics at this kiddie soccer website, so please be respectful and put your bigotry in the right place, ok?

Let's get this back to soccer-related vaccine posts.  Is your kid going to inject the bat poison, or did you just steer her away from going to college so she could fly to Spain and then right back when she is denied entry?


----------



## Grace T.

Mandatory COVID tests in Hong Kong.  I'm sure some of us here (wonder who?) approve....probably the same ones applauding the Canadian government.....









						Hong Kong orders mandatory Covid-19 tests for all residents
					

The population of 7.5 million will be tested three times in March as the Chinese territory grapples with its worst outbreak of the pandemic.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Mandatory COVID tests in Hong Kong.  I'm sure some of us here (wonder who?) approve....probably the same ones applauding the Canadian government.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hong Kong orders mandatory Covid-19 tests for all residents
> 
> 
> The population of 7.5 million will be tested three times in March as the Chinese territory grapples with its worst outbreak of the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Why is it your idea of freedom only involves your freedom?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why is it your idea of freedom only involves your freedom?


Errr...because it's liberty, which sometimes conflicts with the collective good.

The problem with the collective good is that without liberty, it degenerates into tyranny, regardless of the form of government, whether monarch, aristocracy or monarchy, because someone must make the decision, and those people could very well be flawed.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Mandatory COVID tests in Hong Kong.  I'm sure some of us here (wonder who?) approve....probably the same ones applauding the Canadian government.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hong Kong orders mandatory Covid-19 tests for all residents
> 
> 
> The population of 7.5 million will be tested three times in March as the Chinese territory grapples with its worst outbreak of the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


The Canadian government did what the overwhelming majority of Canadians wanted it to do.  After too long a period of patience, they dealt conclusively with the actions of a small group of criminal terrorists.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You continue to miss his point entirely, but I suspect you already know that.  May be its a fear induced blind spot.
> 
> Children without comorbidities (aka healthy children) have no serious risk from Covid.  Why would you give someone medical treatment that they don't need?  Out of fear maybe, but there is no rational reason to do so.  Even if it prevented transmission, which it clearly does not, you might be able to cobble together an argument...but just a fear based one.  The vaccination also doesn't provide protection in to adult hood, it barely lasts a few months.  It's not like the HPV vaccination which is given as a older child to protect in adult hood.


He changed his point as soon as I showed the flaw in his previous point.

If he can find the backbone to admit he made a bad argument, I might consider his next point.  If he is incapable of differentiating between the good arguments and the bad ones, he’s not worth talking to.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> The Canadian government did what the overwhelming majority wanted it to do.  After too long a period of patience. tey dealt conclusively with the actions of a small group of criminal terrorists.


You call them terrorists….what do you call ANTIFA?


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You call them terrorists….what do you call ANTIFA?


I'm sorry that apple is rotten. Would you like a nice orange?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I'm sorry that apple is rotten. Would you like a nice orange?


Yes but I prefer naval oranges.  Now answer the question.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> The right side sees crazy as a badge of honor, the crazier the better. I see who has been pushed forward by each party and who they censure. Pretty simple analysis.


Crazy is your projection of oneself. The TRUTH is my badge of Honor.
Pretty Simple.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Before we start a new conversation, I want to finish following up on your previous thought.
> 
> You claimed it was a bad idea to vaccinate healthy children *against SARS-COV-2 ----yes I did*
> 
> It is a completely untenable position *--- It's not. * The vast majority of vaccines produced are administered to healthy children - *Sure NOT SARS-COV-2* , *FDA not convinced*
> 
> Vaccines aren’t even effective after you already are sick -*Interesting you say this, research being done on whether vaccinating long haul covid patients helps...therapuetic maybe?  hmmm..*
> 
> There is no question whether it is normal to vaccinate a healthy child.  It is quite common - *against infections disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children.*
> 
> The question is whether you are capable of recognizing an error in your argument and adjusting to a more rational position.  So far, the answer appears to be ”no.” *You aren't even discussing the right topic.*


You are like a self licking ice cream cone.  There has only been ONE conversation - centering around whether or not to vaccinate healthy young children to  "protect" them against covid.   No one is disputing immunizing children against disease that protect..wait for it....*against infectios disease that can cause severe illness, pain, and suffering in healthy children.* 

Have you called your buddies over at Pfizer and asked what the hold up is for the ulittle vaccine?  Also ask them for the missing CDC data.

But let's go ahead and continue to discuss *vaccinating healthy young children* against the current flavor of SARS-COV-2.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> You continue to miss his point entirely, but I suspect you already know that.  May be its a fear induced blind spot.
> 
> Children without comorbidities (aka healthy children) have no serious risk from Covid.  Why would you give someone medical treatment that they don't need?  Out of fear maybe, but there is no rational reason to do so.  Even if it prevented transmission, which it clearly does not, you might be able to cobble together an argument...but just a fear based one.  The vaccination also doesn't provide protection in to adult hood, it barely lasts a few months.  It's not like the HPV vaccination which is given as a older child to protect in adult hood.


Quite entertaining.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You call them terrorists….what do you call ANTIFA?











						A Brief History of Anti-Fascism
					

As long as the ideology has threatened marginalized communities, groups on the left have pushed back with force




					www.smithsonianmag.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> A Brief History of Anti-Fascism
> 
> 
> As long as the ideology has threatened marginalized communities, groups on the left have pushed back with force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.smithsonianmag.com


That’s a historical perspective how about the 2020 version.  You all want to call Truckers standing up up for their rights as terrorists but not referr to the organization they fire bombed, looted and smashed property as the same or worse.  

Just another crazy hypocrisy from the Left……


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s a historical perspective how about the 2020 version.  You all want to call Truckers standing up up for their rights as terrorists but not referr to the organization they fire bombed, looted and smashed property as the same or worse.
> 
> Just another crazy hypocrisy from the Left……


I take it that English is not your first language.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s a historical perspective how about the 2020 version.  You all want to call Truckers standing up up for their rights as terrorists but not referr to the organization they fire bombed, looted and smashed property as the same or worse.
> 
> Just another crazy hypocrisy from the Left……


You are running off a narrative provided by your fascist leaning sources. Imagine if world leaders just responded to the narrative Putin portrays instead of reality.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are running off a narrative provided by your fascist leaning sources. *Imagine if world leaders just responded to the narrative Putin portrays instead of reality.*


wut?


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are running off a narrative provided by your fascist leaning sources. Imagine if world leaders just responded to the narrative Putin portrays instead of reality.


Funny you say such a thing at the same time you support the Can gov actions.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495849492071002121
_"wow. can't believe putin declared martial law, crushed protests, and seized opposition bank accounts."

"Alliance Defending Freedom @ADFLegal
Pause and think about the implications of a Western government telling its citizens the only way their bank accounts will be unfrozen is if they stop protesting the government."_


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Funny you say such a thing at the same time you support the Can gov actions.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495849492071002121
> _"wow. can't believe putin declared martial law, crushed protests, and seized opposition bank accounts."
> 
> "Alliance Defending Freedom @ADFLegal
> Pause and think about the implications of a Western government telling its citizens the only way their bank accounts will be unfrozen is if they stop protesting the government."_


Where does she say "stop protesting the government"?


----------



## Brav520

Only regime approved protest are allowed folks 

any other threaten “democracy”

when you “threaten democracy”,  any action is warranted

the ones who scream the loudest about “saving democracy” have also been the quickest to invoke emergency powers the last 2 years


----------



## whatithink

espola said:


> Where does she say "stop protesting the government"?


Its funny how her saying, if your bank account is frozen because you are doing illegal shit, then stop doing the illegal shit and we can work on unfreezing the bank account - turns into ".. if they stop protesting the government."

Invoking the Emergency Act (passed in 1988) under which the Public Order Emergency (expires after 30 days or can be called sooner) is a reach to me, and I would have thought there are enough laws on the books to deal with it, but I'm not Canadian, so wouldn't know. Apparently 66% of Canadians support (or supported) its use though, with 70%+ in a few regions. It was also passed in Parliament (required).

If someone really wants to get upset about a (Western) government looking to restrict citizen protests, then they should just go check out what the (Conservative) UK government is looking to pass.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Errr...because it's liberty, which sometimes conflicts with the collective good.
> 
> The problem with the collective good is that without liberty, it degenerates into tyranny, regardless of the form of government, whether monarch, aristocracy or monarchy, because someone must make the decision, and those people could very well be flawed.


The problem is that every group in power believes that they are immune to all the ills of every previous group in power.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> The problem is that every group in power believes that they are immune to all the ills of every previous group in power.


And the stupid thing is the great masses generally believe them time and time again when they promised to protect us from the terrorist bombs, or bring about the workers paradise, or stop the seas from rising, or make America great again, or end covid, or safety and security for all to thunderous applause.


----------



## soccersc

If you 4 minutes, this is a very interesting. I know there will be some that knock it because it’s on Rogan but this guy has an intriguing perspective that should be considered by all.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496067816151261185


----------



## soccersc

@dad4 this is another reason for so much skepticism…it doesn’t sound odd to you that they are withholding information because “it’s not ready for prime time”… what? If that is for real, not good 









						CDC refusing to publish data on booster effectiveness for those 18-49
					

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was accused on Monday of withholding vital swathes of its data on COVID-19. The CDC said it was to prevent misinterpretation.



					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> @dad4 this is another reason for so much skepticism…it doesn’t sound odd to you that they are withholding information because “it’s not ready for prime time”… what? If that is for real, not good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC refusing to publish data on booster effectiveness for those 18-49
> 
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was accused on Monday of withholding vital swathes of its data on COVID-19. The CDC said it was to prevent misinterpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Given what I see here, it is reasonable to assume that people will misinterpret the data.  

For example, younger people are less vaccinated.   Younger people are also less likely to need dental work.  If you put your mind to it, you can twist those two facts to show that the vaccine causes tooth decay.  

If that sounds silly, look back to the argument on UK data for ”deaths from all causes”.   A bunch of people here made exactly that argument, except replace “tooth decay” with “death”.

So, yeah.  I think misinterpretation is kind of a given at this point.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Given what I see here, it is reasonable to assume that people will misinterpret the data.
> 
> For example, younger people are less vaccinated.   Younger people are also less likely to need dental work.  If you put your mind to it, you can twist those two facts to show that the vaccine causes tooth decay.
> 
> If that sounds silly, look back to the argument on UK data for ”deaths from all causes”.   A bunch of people here made exactly that argument, except replace “tooth decay” with “death”.
> 
> So, yeah.  I think misinterpretation is kind of a given at this point.


Like when we didn’t need masks?

Guess we should have expected that you of all people would be in favor of limited data in order to manipulate the results to fit your narrative.  

Numbers don’t lie, only people do….


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Like when we didn’t need masks?
> 
> Guess we should have expected that you of all people would be in favor of limited data in order to manipulate the results to fit your narrative.
> 
> Numbers don’t lie, only people do….


Do females have to take the jab to play in college?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

crush said:


> Do females have to take the jab to play in college?


Guess that depends on the college.   But that’s a question for Off Topic….


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Guess that depends on the college.   But that’s a question for Off Topic….


Great answer.  So if a kid wants to play in college, they should open up their video with their Vax status to get things started?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

crush said:


> Great answer.  So if a kid wants to play in college, they should open up their video with their Vax status to get things started?


If it makes you feel better….sure.


----------



## crush

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If it makes you feel better….sure.


This whole thing is sickening.  I know folks who said no to jab and lost everything.  Got fired!!!  I know kids who said no to jab and lost out on $200,000 free education.  That is taking a stand.  Karma is coming!!!!


----------



## crush

From Catturd: 
For the past year - the Biden regime has called me a racist, Nazi, and a murderer for being unvaccinated.

Why would I give a damn what they say about me for not supporting WWIII with Russia just to protect Hunter's million dollar no-show job employer.


----------



## Bubba

crush said:


> Do females have to take the jab to play in college?


Depends on School , if not vaccinated you needed weekly test at my players school


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Given what I see here, it is reasonable to assume that people will misinterpret the data.
> 
> *For example, younger people are less vaccinated.   Younger people are also less likely to need dental work.  If you put your mind to it, you can twist those two facts to show that the vaccine causes tooth decay. *
> 
> If that sounds silly, look back to the argument on UK data for ”deaths from all causes”.   A bunch of people here made exactly that argument, except replace “tooth decay” with “death”.
> 
> So, yeah.  I think misinterpretation is kind of a given at this point.


You and the CDC/FDA have something in common - lack of credibility.   Or maybe you've been overly influenced by neat and tidy data presented by pharma.  

At least we agree that covid vaccines shoulnd't be administered to healthy young children.  And that masking is theatre, school masking does very little, and that little o has rendered mandates scientfically obsolete.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> This is a perfect example of the typical right wing nutter.  Spewing anti-vax/mask bs at a kiddie soccer website isn't working to your satisfaction, so dog whistle some transphobia instead.  Classic. Well, you and your fellow racist/xenophobic/homophobic/transphobic buddies already have other threads for those topics at this kiddie soccer website, so please be respectful and put your bigotry in the right place, ok?
> 
> Let's get this back to soccer-related vaccine posts.  Is your kid going to inject the bat poison, or did you just steer her away from going to college so she could fly to Spain and then right back when she is denied entry?


Why do you assume she/her bigot?  Your moronic rules, not mine.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why is it your idea of freedom only involves your freedom?


why wouldn't it?  where do you live?


----------



## crush

Bubba said:


> Depends on School , if not vaccinated you needed weekly test at my players school


What about incoming 2022s and P5s?  If your already there, you can skirt around it.  I was on all the calls Bubba and the Jab was an issue.  I get coaches don;t want to deal with another political hot topic but man, this is about the health of a 17 year old and whether she should inject a bio weapon in order to get a full ride.  It's no brainer for my kid but I know other kids who took the jab because they have been working for over 12 years to get a full ride.  Another friend of mine took the jab to keep his job and now he has blood clots.  I said no jab and it's been rough financially, I won;t lie.  I know another kid that went to Texas at a small Christian College and no jab there but they dont play quality games and besides, my kid is not into all that force religion stuff.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Like when we didn’t need masks?
> 
> Guess we should have expected that you of all people would be in favor of limited data in order to manipulate the results to fit your narrative.
> 
> Numbers don’t lie, only people do….


More elitist BS from @dad4. It's a reminder of how someone can be so intelligent in one area such as mathematics and so clueless in understanding people, their motivations, and the consequence of actions.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> More elitist BS from @dad4. It's a reminder of how someone can be so intelligent in one area such as mathematics and so clueless in understanding people, their motivations, and the consequence of actions.


He's not very street smart or he is and he's fooling all of you.  I already told you guys what he's up to.  He and the others will not change.  Their all in and I respect that.  However, we will get to the bottom of the last two years.  I have to wear a mask now and I will.  I have always obeyed the mask rules.  I just didn;t give in to the jab because of  my wife and my street smarts.  It led me to the right choice for us.  Not being able to work or get fired or else is illigal and criminal but most everyone obeyed.  Why did most people obey and get the jab and wear mask?  Would you still take the jab knowing what you know today?  Others who took the jab and boosters, would you still do it?  Bill Gates say's for sure another plandemic is coming this Fall. Will you take his boosters?  My dd does whatever she wants and she is a smart cat. Brah, she had a big time coach fat shame her teammate and she called him out for it.  He got red in the face and did not like being called out like that.  Ego!!!  Then she said, "why you get all mad?  Why do you have to yell at me?  These men are not men that were dealing with.  America's snobs and ruling class of cheaters and sell outs to the highest bidder have caused all this.  They attack me for a reason and you know it.  Then, two seasons ago, she emailed a AD letting him know that treating girls as second and pushing them over to Gopher Hole Stadium was wrong and dangerous and wasa big cause for her having to go to ER for cast.  She will give everything but she expects respect back and if no respect, well then, you can be an asshole and treat girls and kids bad.  We have to take a stand or we will all be wearing mask in the fall and force to get fully vaccinated.  This will not end until people say enough.  Love you man and big congrats on fat raise at work


----------



## crush

Gas is now $5.25 and will hit $7.  Inflation is through the roof.  If you dont get jabbed, you have to wear a mask to be seen by everyone that your anti-vaxxer.  You can't buy or sell with respect and now have become a leper so to speak.  This is my life.  Thanks you guys.  Mental illness is going to get cray cray btw.  I feel great, healthy, happy and hopeful but need to see how I can make a living with a forced mask on my face.  N95 too or I am in violation.  I am an outside sales man you guys.  Do you think people will let me in their business knowing I am not jabbed?  I'm waiting for one family I know to say they were wrong about Joe and all this BS the last 6 years.  My bff and if he and his wife see the light, then we all have hope.  Their digging their heals in still.  He cannot look at me in the eye anymore.  When he tries to explain why we need to go save Ukraine, he sounds stupid.  He got a masters and is super book smart but not on this subject.  I told him, "Hey, when your side cheats, spies and lies, it's all over.  The other side lied about Iraq and WMD so your both even." He says, "Hey, I got a call, I got's to go."  I texted him and told him I can;t wait when he say's he was wrong for once.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Like when we didn’t need masks?
> 
> Guess we should have expected that you of all people would be in favor of limited data in order to manipulate the results to fit your narrative.
> 
> Numbers don’t lie, only people do….


They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.

They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.

Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.
> 
> They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.
> 
> Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


Mask is all about control.  For example, you do not need to wear a mask anymore dad.  Only the non jabbers and the kids have to wear a mask.  I am going to wear my mask like a good little boy.  I dont want to be in any violation.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.
> 
> *They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.*  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.
> 
> Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


sure


----------



## crush

All they do is lie!!!











						Rogan: The Decline And Lies Of Joe Biden
					

Podcaster Joe Rogan lays out President Biden's history of prevarication and obvious mental decay.




					www.billoreilly.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.
> 
> They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.
> 
> Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


Funny the right still tries to claim they were lied to while analysis was still developing, but they supported and probably still support trump.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny the right still tries to claim they were lied to while analysis was still developing, but they supported and probably still support trump.


Funny you still talk left vs right.  Dude, it's over.  Give up.  This is not Left vs Right anymore, it's just about what's right.  If you stand for TRUTH, you will win!!!


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny the right still tries to claim they were lied to while analysis was still developing, but they supported and probably still support trump.


ahh, so only the right was told to not wear masks?  logic choo choo on point..

back then masks didn't work, and then they did, and now they kinda do...no?


----------



## Brav520

Wuhan lab leak theory ‘accepted as likely behind closed doors at No 10’
					

Biosecurity expert helping Government to prevent future pandemics claims ministers consider leak as most likely origin of Covid pandemic




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.
> 
> They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.
> 
> Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


But now they say mask don't work, even CNN doctors say wearing a cloth mask has no purpose and it is simply a face decoration.  The only mask that has a chance of working are N95 mask and how many kids are wearing those to school? I'll answer that for you, very very very few!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> They told you you didn’t need masks because me-first types were buying up the N95 masks they needed for medical staff.
> 
> They had doctors dying because of shortages of medical supplies.  They probably thought people would buy 100 packs and stash them in their garages.
> 
> Perhaps they could have said masks work, then asked everyone nicely to not buy up the medical supplies.   It would have worked about as well as the other times CDC has asked nicely.


With your stance on mask effectiveness, how many innocent lives were lost because of the CDC’s actions?


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> sure


Then logic of this baffles me.  Doctors don't wear cloth masks.  If they had wanted to save medical grade masks for hospital settings, all they had to do is put a moratorium from the major sellers (drug stores, supermarkets, amazon/target/walmart) to stop selling medical grade masks.  They could have told the public "we don't know if they'll work, but if you are concerned make yourself a cloth mask".   Remember eventually bandanas and gaiters were said to be acceptable.  They didn't need to come out and say they didn't work.   The reason why they said they didn't work is because the consensus around the research on flu at the time was they didn't work.

But then magically they switched to cloth masks work, AND said bandanas and gaiters worked.  So why the changed?  One, yes they were more readily available after a month, but that's not the issue...bandanas after all were always available.  Further, the Spain mannequin study showing that cloth and bandanas/gaiters were less effective (which lead to the banning of these items in several European countries) came out in May of 2020.  In the end it boils down to essential workers.....Europe in its harsh lockdown had a very limited definition of essential workers with only public works, hospitals, pharmacies, certain largely food and energy related industries and supermarkets open and everyone else was in lockdown and they made a concerted effort to get medical grade masks to these people.  But the United States had a very loose definition of lockdown, with in California bike shops, liquor stores, marijuana shops, plumbers and aircon, pool shops, box stores, netflix and TV, warehouses, delivery drivers and takeout open.  That's a lot of essential workers in a country with a very large population.  You couldn't send all these essential workers to the slaughter in a panic with no protection, so it became convenient to say cloth masks, bandanas and gaiters work to prevent a panic.  As to the latter two, does any still believe that or how ridiculous is it that people actually thought running around like bandidos would do something?  And once you are in this particular culdesac, it's particularly hard to climb out of it once you've worked everyone up, having taken time from getting from "everyone be a bandido" to "cloth masks are little more than facial decorations".


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> More elitist BS from @dad4. It's a reminder of how someone can be so intelligent in one area such as mathematics and so clueless in understanding people, their motivations, and the consequence of actions.


The fact that the CDC says people might interpret the data in a wrong way tells you all you need to know. 

I would take a strong guess that the data shows that the under 49 group has/had little issues with the disease. And due to that, that takes away the emphasis on masks, vaxx mandates, etc. 

If the data went the other direction you can bet CDC would have already posted it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Wuhan lab leak theory ‘accepted as likely behind closed doors at No 10’
> 
> 
> Biosecurity expert helping Government to prevent future pandemics claims ministers consider leak as most likely origin of Covid pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


How can this be? I heard under good authority that this was theory debunked and those who promoted it were racist.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> The fact that the CDC says people might interpret the data in a wrong way tells you all you need to know.
> 
> I would take a strong guess that the data shows that the under 49 group has/had little issues with the disease. And due to that, that takes away the emphasis on masks, vaxx mandates, etc.
> 
> If the data went the other direction you can bet CDC would have already posted it.


Life Insurance claims for that age bracket has sky rocketed.  Soccer players around the world are retiring or dying after jab.  That is a fact.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> The fact that the CDC says people might interpret the data in a wrong way tells you all you need to know.
> 
> I would take a strong guess that the data shows that the under 49 group has/had little issues with the disease. And due to that, that takes away the emphasis on masks, vaxx mandates, etc.
> 
> If the data went the other direction you can bet CDC would have already posted it.


No matter how hard you try, you just can't do a better job of undermining trust than the CDC. Their "clueless" game is strong.


----------



## watfly

soccersc said:


> But now they say mask don't work, even CNN doctors say wearing a cloth mask has no purpose and it is simply a face decoration.  The only mask that has a chance of working are N95 mask and how many kids are wearing those to school? I'll answer that for you, very very very few!!!


Yep.  We always need to separate masking issues between adults and children.  We can't extrapolate any adult mask studies to children, they're are two totally different things.  Studies of children masking have come to the conclusion that masks provide "no statistically significant benefit".


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> With your stance on mask effectiveness, how many innocent lives were lost because of the CDC’s actions?


In April 2020, none.  If they had not reserved N95 and surgical masks for medical staff, they would have had a serious problem with outbreaks in hospitals.  Later, lots.  But you’re asking for my guess at whether people would have masked up if they had not been lied to initially.  I’m really bad at that kind of guess. 

Question back at you.  Do you think everyone would have politely reserved N95 and surgical masks for hospitals, knowing that doing so puts their own family at higher risk?   Remember, we are talking March 2020.  People still believed kids are vulnerable.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> How can this be? I heard under good authority that this was theory debunked and those who promoted it were racist.


Bro, this is getting sick and dangerous trying to reason with the likes of guys like Husker, Dad, Golden Gate and Espola.  No reason in them at all and when their about to lose, they go all in with the race card.  After race, riots and rebels hit the streets, the Fall will come and Bill Gates will be right again, another plandemic will come, even bigger waves then before.  I don;t know how long I can survive here.  I'm trying to stay but man, these folks hate me and for which I stand for, which is truth and treating kids and females better then before.  That is a winning platform and the women appreciate me for helping them.  The kids need are help and I will be there to help when called in the future.  This world is getting [ut upside down and for good reason.  Its their last ditch effort and it's coming hard.  False flags are going to be everywhere and it will seem like WWIII is on TV and nukes are coming next.  Vax or No Vax will be a mute point because of war.  These rats live in dark underground tunnels and their time is up.  Look how they attack me for standing up for my dd and saying no to jab and the clan.  Do you see what I see bro?  I'm already SOL in the old, normal rich snob life that I guess many on here were trying to get themselves.  Life style of the rich and famous is a big lie.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The fact that the CDC says people might interpret the data in a wrong way tells you all you need to know.
> 
> I would take a strong guess that the data shows that the under 49 group has/had little issues with the disease. And due to that, that takes away the emphasis on masks, vaxx mandates, etc.
> 
> If the data went the other direction you can bet CDC would have already posted it.


This is where we need to heed Espola's cautionary words "What do they have to hide?"


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> No matter how hard you try, you just can't do a better job of undermining trust than the CDC. Their "clueless" game is strong.


It's worse then clueless bro


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> In April 2020, none.  If they had not reserved N95 and surgical masks for medical staff, they would have had a serious problem with outbreaks in hospitals.  Later, lots.  But you’re asking for my guess at whether people would have masked up if they had not been lied to initially.  I’m really bad at that kind of guess.
> 
> Question back at you.  Do you think everyone would have politely reserved N95 and surgical masks for hospitals, knowing that doing so puts their own family at higher risk?   Remember, we are talking March 2020.  People still believed kids are vulnerable.


Oh so the virus wasn’t spreading rampantly in April 2020?  Cause here I thought we were under the extension of “2 Weeks to Flatten the Curve” to slow spread.

Government has overreached in so many areas, why not this one and follow Grace’s model above and recommend Cloth masks?  That’s what our family did.


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting report from Vox on the conservative vaccine resistance.  A few notes:

1. Red/blue results where pretty much all over the place and not correlated to npi responses pre vaccine.
2. red states have done significantly worse since vaccines available
3. where to put the blame?  conservatives would blame the non stop lying by main stream media and elites (going back to Russia gate and continuing through COVID with masking, funny hospitalization numbers, nonsensical NPIS and the nonsterilizing nature of the vaccine).  Liberals would blame Trump for minimizing the severity of the outbreak in order to keep the economy working and get himself reelected.  
4. Reinforces my belief that going forward we should be focused on vaccinating those remaining individuals over 40 who haven't had it yet, but in particular vaccinating and boosting the elderly.  If you are going to mandate, rather than focusing on low risk kids, it seems obvious to me the first mandate you'd want is for over 65s in nursing homes.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *Reinforces my belief* that going forward we should be focused on vaccinating those remaining individuals over 40 who haven't had it yet, but in particular vaccinating and boosting the elderly.  If you are going to mandate, rather than focusing on low risk kids, it seems obvious to me the first mandate you'd want is for over 65s in nursing homes.


Never!!  Which one do you recommend Grace T?


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Never!!  Which one do you recommend Grace T?


Haven't you had it yet?


----------



## crush

Wow, gas is over $6.00 now in California Dreaming.  Thanks fellas for all the great things you do.  I just will have to sit this out man.  Insane to look for work in these times.  I love you guys and hope you see what is really going on.  I pray for peace but will never get jabbed to comply to the likes of Husker.  Never will I comply!!!!  Can you imagine having a coach like a Husker or Coach Golden Gate or someone like Espola evaluating your player to play at the next level?  You better do what they say in order to be on their team.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> How can this be? I heard under good authority that this was theory debunked and those who promoted it were racist.


weird huh.  How on earth could a novel virus with weird behavior orginate in the same area where a super duper secret and secure lab that studies c-viruses sits?  How weird is that?  I mean, no way it could happen - so many experts with zero interest in hiding agendas and secrets told us this was impossible. 

Can't make this up- seriously.  But masks that had disclaimers on boxes telling you they don't work work.  But now they don't work after working so well for a few years.  But they still work on humans who sit behind small desks.   trumpies fault.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Bro, this is getting sick and dangerous trying to reason with the likes of guys like Husker, Dad, Golden Gate and Espola.  No reason in them at all and when their about to lose, they go all in with the race card.  After race, riots and rebels hit the streets, the Fall will come and Bill Gates will be right again, another plandemic will come, even bigger waves then before.  I don;t know how long I can survive here.  I'm trying to stay but man, these folks hate me and for which I stand for, which is truth and treating kids and females better then before.  That is a winning platform and the women appreciate me for helping them.  The kids need are help and I will be there to help when called in the future.  This world is getting [ut upside down and for good reason.  Its their last ditch effort and it's coming hard.  False flags are going to be everywhere and it will seem like WWIII is on TV and nukes are coming next.  Vax or No Vax will be a mute point because of war.  These rats live in dark underground tunnels and their time is up.  Look how they attack me for standing up for my dd and saying no to jab and the clan.  Do you see what I see bro?  I'm already SOL in the old, normal rich snob life that I guess many on here were trying to get themselves.  Life style of the rich and famous is a big lie.


While the Borg Collective of Trolls you mention often supports his positions, @dad4 has never inserted race to make a point that I saw.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> View attachment 13002
> 
> Wow, gas is over $6.00 now in California Dreaming.  Thanks fellas for all the great things you do.  I just will have to sit this out man.  Insane to look for work in these times.  I love you guys and hope you see what is really going on.  I pray for peace but will never get jabbed to comply to the likes of Husker.  Never will I comply!!!!  Can you imagine having a coach like a Husker or Coach Golden Gate or someone like Espola evaluating your player to play at the next level?  You better do what they say in order to be on their team.


If the situation in the Ukraine gets worse, it will get higher still.  This is so far in response to the futures markets pricing in what potentially might happen....if it actually happens it goes higher.  The jolt would be enough to fuel the inflationary trend, and coupled with the likely reactions already announced by the Fed, we are looking at several years at stagflation.  Buckle up....we've been through the easy part so far....the reckoning on a whole bunch of things (from delayed cancer diagnosis to child learning loss to the economy to what's going to happen to those slew of office workers) has only just begun.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> In April 2020, none.  If they had not reserved N95 and surgical masks for medical staff, they would have had a serious problem with outbreaks in hospitals.  Later, lots.  But you’re asking for my guess at whether people would have masked up if they had not been lied to initially.  I’m really bad at that kind of guess.
> 
> Question back at you.  Do you think everyone would have politely reserved N95 and surgical masks for hospitals, knowing that doing so puts their own family at higher risk?   Remember, we are talking March 2020.  People still believed kids are vulnerable.


The tap dance in you is strong..

Many things going on in APR 2020.  Flatten the curve was happening, PPE was being replenished at a rapid rate.  Most hospital systems ordered way more than needed.  Cloth masks happened.  Distilleries making hand sanitizers.

Were there shortages of masks for providers?  maybe, maybe not.  We'll likley never know.  There were other filtration systems that were being used.

One thing is true though, lucky for us, SARS-COV-2 wasn't as deadly as it could have been.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> View attachment 13004


1. Yes the supply chain crisis and inflation predates the Ukraine.  Blaming it on the Ukraine is first rate propaganda.
2. Gas prices are spiking higher now because of the Ukraine
3. They will go even higher if real fighting breaks out.

All true at the same time.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> The tap dance in you is strong..
> 
> Many things going on in APR 2020.  Flatten the curve was happening, PPE was being replenished at a rapid rate.  Most hospital systems ordered way more than needed.  Cloth masks happened.  Distilleries making hand sanitizers.
> 
> Were there shortages of masks for providers?  maybe, maybe not.  We'll likley never know.  There were other filtration systems that were being used.
> 
> One thing is true though, lucky for us, SARS-COV-2 wasn't as deadly as it could have been.


I had forgotten about the distilleries. 

Once there is no longer an agenda to support, history, including leftist academics, will look very unfavorably on how we handled the pandemic.  How we ignored the science about who was at risk and quarantined and restricted the behaviors of low risk individuals especially kids.

Its ironic how those that promote "freedumb" on here can't recognize that they have been the selfish ones by making everyone cater to their own irrational fears.  Particularly "adults" that have projected their own fears onto children.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> 1. Yes the supply chain crisis and inflation predates the Ukraine.  Blaming it on the Ukraine is first rate propaganda.
> 2. Gas prices are spiking higher now because of the Ukraine
> 3. They will go even higher if real fighting breaks out.
> 
> All true at the same time.


Not really because Ukraine has zero to do with the Supply Chain crisis.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> 1. Yes the supply chain crisis and inflation predates the Ukraine.  Blaming it on the Ukraine is first rate propaganda.
> 2. Gas prices are spiking higher now because of the Ukraine
> 3. They will go even higher if real fighting breaks out.
> 
> All true at the same time.


Can you explain the reasons we need to protect Ukraine besides the obvious?  I'm not that well versed on Russian History.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> The tap dance in you is strong..
> 
> Many things going on in APR 2020.  Flatten the curve was happening, PPE was being replenished at a rapid rate.  Most hospital systems ordered way more than needed.  Cloth masks happened.  Distilleries making hand sanitizers.
> 
> Were there shortages of masks for providers?  maybe, maybe not.  We'll likley never know.  There were other filtration systems that were being used.
> 
> One thing is true though, lucky for us, SARS-COV-2 wasn't as deadly as it could have been.


We will never know if there was a mask shortage back then.

Unless, of course, we bother to remember news stories of doctors and nurses being told to re-use old masks.  Or talk to hospital procurement managers.  Or do a Google search.

But that's too much work, right?


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Not really because Ukraine has zero to do with the Supply Chain crisis.


Agree particularly the good crunch out of China and electronic/chips.  It's going to make certain things worse though (like the gas prices, certain rare earths, timber and [wait for it].....fertilizer.....because the US doesn't like to use human derived fertilizer we rely very heavily on cheap Russian fertilizer....food prices and shortage will be impacted for some time and the supply chain recovery will be delayed as a result)


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We will never know if there was a mask shortage back then.
> 
> Unless, of course, we bother to remember news stories of doctors and nurses being told to re-use old masks.  Or talk to hospital procurement managers.  Or do a Google search.
> 
> But that's too much work, right?


We had PPE shortage because the Obama administration didn't replenish the National Stockpile for what they used.  Now should Trump have done something about it, probably, but we have a rule in our house, whoever uses it, replaces it.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Can you explain the reasons we need to protect Ukraine besides the obvious?  I'm not that well versed on Russian History.


I'll give you the pros and cons:

If we don't protect the Ukraine the argument will go that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania will have issues too because they have Russian minorities as well.  They are NATO members.  If we don't stand up now, Putin will see we are unserious and invade then, at a time when nuclear protection is trigger due to the NATO charter.  (Interestingly, there's a mockumentary where a British news event chronicles a ficticious Russian invasion of Estonia which ends in a global nuclear exchange....very realistic...scary stuff....I'm much more worried about this possibility than I am about climate change or even the cylons....I posted it a few months back but you can youtube google it).  Putin's stated policy is that he wants to rebuild the Russian Empire  and thinks it was a mistake for the soviet Union to break up (which also puts Finland and Sweden who are not NATO members in the cross hairs).  The Ukrainians are a separate and distinct people with a developing culture and separate nonorthodox religion.

The cons were mostly clearly outlined by Tulsi is a recent address.  The Ukraine is not a democracy....it is a kleptocracy which is corrupt and part of the reason we may be doing this is because of the corruption between Ukraine and certain US officials.  The Russians have a legitimate concern about self determination.  The US is not the world's police men.  We gave the Russians certain assurances under the table when Germany reunited and the Soviets left eastern Europe and now NATO is being pushed deep into the Russian hinterland (near the lands where Germany pushed the Russians at Stalingrad) and how would we feel if Mexico joined the Chinese Axis and China stationed a bunch of troops on the Mexican border.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I'll give you the pros and cons:
> 
> If we don't protect the Ukraine the argument will go that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania will have issues too because they have Russian minorities as well.  They are NATO members.  If we don't stand up now, Putin will see we are unserious and invade then, at a time when nuclear protection is trigger due to the NATO charter.  (Interestingly, there's a mockumentary where a British news event chronicles a ficticious Russian invasion of Estonia which ends in a global nuclear exchange....very realistic...scary stuff....I'm much more worried about this possibility than I am about climate change or even the cylons....I posted it a few months back but you can youtube google it).  Putin's stated policy is that he wants to rebuild the Russian Empire  and thinks it was a mistake for the soviet Union to break up (which also puts Finland and Sweden who are not NATO members in the cross hairs).  The Ukrainians are a separate and distinct people with a developing culture and separate nonorthodox religion.
> 
> The cons were mostly clearly outlined by Tulsi is a recent address.  The Ukraine is not a democracy....it is a kleptocracy which is corrupt and part of the reason we may be doing this is because of the corruption between Ukraine and certain US officials.  The Russians have a legitimate concern about self determination.  The US is not the world's police men.  We gave the Russians certain assurances under the table when Germany reunited and the Soviets left eastern Europe and now NATO is being pushed deep into the Russian hinterland (near the lands where Germany pushed the Russians at Stalingrad) and how would we feel if Mexico joined the Chinese Axis and China stationed a bunch of troops on the Mexican border.


Excellent feed back.  You know your stuff, that's for sure and I like the fact that you give both sides.  I think we should let Russia deal with Kiev. Would you want your dd or ds over there dealing with that hot mess?  We have enough problems with our own country.  It's 100% blame it on Ukraine and I feel super sick today.  Depressed sort of because of all the pals I lost the last 3 years. Today has been tough on me emotionally.  I got in a big debate ((go figure)) with old pal again and it went South.  He won;t talk Jab anymore and now all he wants to talk about is this bully Putin and how he and t stole the election form HRC in 2016.  Then I heard another story of somebody who got both legs chopped off because of clots. Then.......you know what Grace T? I'm seriously done with all this.  My time has come to finally leave once and for all.  The talk today with a very smart man has me convinced that he really wants communism and I'm not joking.  He is a wealthy rich snob and wants everyone to get jabbed and be a part of Metaverse.  Today is 100% my last day at the forum.  No one has my back on here at all.  My life coach told me to get out of here and it low energy and she is right.  Goodbye once and for all.  I swear I warned everyone on here about what this is all about and YOU will ALL see soon.  I love you all and goodbye my brothers and sisters.  It pains me to leave once and for good.....lol!   Bahhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaa GOAT FC Rules!!!!


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> We will never know if there was a mask shortage back then.
> 
> Unless, of course, we bother to remember news stories of doctors and nurses being told to re-use old masks.  Or talk to hospital procurement managers.  Or do a Google search.
> 
> But that's too much work, right?


It's impossible to have a nuanced conversation with someone like you.  Nuance escapes you.

Plenty of reasons that drive the approx 3000 or so health care workers that we think died during the early days.  Most were nurses and support personnel.  Many were born outside of the US.  Hospital system and federal policy can be equally blamed for lack of a coherent policy for the use of PPE.  Your "procurement managers" also share some blame in hoarding resources.  We can go on and on with the blame game.  Here is a summary - 2020 was f-up.  Blame everyone.  Also, don't neccessarily believe what was ground truth in 2020...sciency things tend to change.  Also admit government entities are sketchy and don't have you in their best interest, especially when they are struggling to understand the problem.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I had forgotten about the distilleries.
> 
> Once there is no longer an agenda to support, history, including leftist academics, will look very unfavorably on how we handled the pandemic.  How we ignored the science about who was at risk and quarantined and restricted the behaviors of low risk individuals especially kids.
> 
> Its ironic how those that promote "freedumb" on here can't recognize that they have been the selfish ones by making everyone cater to their own irrational fears.  Particularly "adults" that have projected their own fears onto children.


We will also look back and see how partisan politics killed people. playing politics with health care has long term downstream effects.  Vaccine initially bad then vaccine good.  Imagine if politicians hadn't integrated vaccines  into their political attacks during an election year. Imagine if health care leaders would have stayed out of the limelight and just done their job.  

Politics, agendas, $$$.  Disproportionate negative outcomes for certain demographics in our country.


----------



## thirteenknots

The TRUTH is coming out.

The answer to COVID-19, a " Virus ", was a very deadly 
set of Vaccines that were just a conduit to a Global 
Financial Reset/Population reduction program that
involves your 3x6 security blanket you treasure.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496262915367870465


----------



## MicPaPa

Truth will always prevail.

*Highly acclaimed peer-reviewed Bangladesh study shows that masks don't work at all*

Highly acclaimed peer-reviewed Bangladesh study shows that masks don't work at all (substack.com)


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> We will also look back and see how partisan politics killed people. playing politics with health care has long term downstream effects.  Vaccine initially bad then vaccine good.  Imagine if politicians hadn't integrated vaccines  into their political attacks during an election year. Imagine if health care leaders would have stayed out of the limelight and just done their job.
> 
> Politics, agendas, $$$.  Disproportionate negative outcomes for certain demographics in our country.


The bigger problem is if we have a pandemic in the future that is actually dangerous to all demographics.  The mistrust of government from this pandemic is so high that the public may not comply with effective, good faith restrictions and mandates.  Of course, the government continues to foster mistrust with the CDC's decision to withhold information that isn't favorable to their narrative.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It's impossible to have a nuanced conversation with someone like you.  Nuance escapes you.
> 
> Plenty of reasons that drive the approx 3000 or so health care workers that we think died during the early days.  Most were nurses and support personnel.  Many were born outside of the US.  Hospital system and federal policy can be equally blamed for lack of a coherent policy for the use of PPE.  Your "procurement managers" also share some blame in hoarding resources.  We can go on and on with the blame game.  Here is a summary - 2020 was f-up.  Blame everyone.  Also, don't neccessarily believe what was ground truth in 2020...sciency things tend to change.  Also admit government entities are sketchy and don't have you in their best interest, especially when they are struggling to understand the problem.


So, your point is that hospitals were hoarding PPE.  Fair enough.

In other words, it was reasonable to worry that private individuals would also hoard PPE.  The NIH concern was valid.   Me-first types would buy up N95 masks and worsen any supply problems.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Truth will always prevail.
> 
> *Highly acclaimed peer-reviewed Bangladesh study shows that masks don't work at all*
> 
> Highly acclaimed peer-reviewed Bangladesh study shows that masks don't work at all (substack.com)


Might want to check the qualifications on your source.  His own alma mater refers to him as a “misinformation superspreader”.









						This tech millionaire went from covid trial funder to misinformation superspreader
					

After boosting unproven covid drugs and campaigning against vaccines, Steve Kirsch was abandoned by his team of scientific advisers—and left out of a job.




					www.technologyreview.com


----------



## thirteenknots

Embalmers are finding what the CDC/WHO/NIH already KNOW!!!!

Embalmers Find Veins And Arteries Filled With Never Before Seen Rubbery Clots by Dr. Jane Ruby. (rumble.com)


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> The TRUTH is coming out.
> 
> The answer to COVID-19, a " Virus ", was a very deadly
> set of Vaccines that were just a conduit to a Global
> Financial Reset/Population reduction program that
> involves your 3x6 security blanket you treasure.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496262915367870465


Here you go anti-vaxxers.  The new conspiracy theory is hot off the presses.  The government is trying to kill you with fatal vaccines in order to reset/reduce world population, and social media is covering it up.  That makes so much more sense than just not funding a vaccine, letting people die of Covid and blaming China for it creating a deadly virus in a lab.  But I guess that doesn't work since you also have a conspiracy theory that no one is dying of Covid, but they're really dying from gunshots and in motorcycle accidents "with" Covid.  Except on Fridays, which are xenophobia day awhen you claim the real conspiracy is that China is responsible for everything bad, including creating a fatal virus in a lab and also that Eileen Gu is a traitor and you're a patriot because you once bought a pair of shoes made in Spain. 

I am shocked, absolutely shocked about the complete silence from the other anti-vaxxer loons who are at least trying to establish a pretense of legitimacy.  But here you go watfly and grace equestrian.  These are your people.  This clown, crush and micshitforbrains relying on a Bangladesh study. That is your brain trust.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> So, your point is that hospitals were hoarding PPE.  Fair enough.
> 
> In other words, it was reasonable to worry that private individuals would also hoard PPE.  The NIH concern was valid.   Me-first types would buy up N95 masks and worsen any supply problems.


There you go again.  yes, all of this can be true, and it likely was.  What is your point?  are you going to say next that hoarding PPE cost 900K lives.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> I'll give you the pros and cons:
> 
> If we don't protect the Ukraine the argument will go that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania will have issues too because they have Russian minorities as well.  They are NATO members.  If we don't stand up now, Putin will see we are unserious and invade then, at a time when nuclear protection is trigger due to the NATO charter.  (Interestingly, there's a mockumentary where a British news event chronicles a ficticious Russian invasion of Estonia which ends in a global nuclear exchange....very realistic...scary stuff....I'm much more worried about this possibility than I am about climate change or even the cylons....I posted it a few months back but you can youtube google it).  Putin's stated policy is that he wants to rebuild the Russian Empire  and thinks it was a mistake for the soviet Union to break up (which also puts Finland and Sweden who are not NATO members in the cross hairs).  The Ukrainians are a separate and distinct people with a developing culture and separate nonorthodox religion.
> 
> The cons were mostly clearly outlined by Tulsi is a recent address.  The Ukraine is not a democracy....it is a kleptocracy which is corrupt and part of the reason we may be doing this is because of the corruption between Ukraine and certain US officials.  The Russians have a legitimate concern about self determination.  The US is not the world's police men.  We gave the Russians certain assurances under the table when Germany reunited and the Soviets left eastern Europe and now NATO is being pushed deep into the Russian hinterland (near the lands where Germany pushed the Russians at Stalingrad) and how would we feel if Mexico joined the Chinese Axis and China stationed a bunch of troops on the Mexican border.


To add to this, Putin said, “the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.  He also said, “Anyone who doesn’t regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains.” 

I think you are correct that guarantees were given, by the US mainly, that have not been upheld.

This article (and yes, its the Guardian) frames a lot of this and lays out a perspective that's different to a lot of the "Putin bad only" narrative.

I'm certainly no fan of Putin or his actions but there's nothing black & white here. 

Ukraine is stuck in the middle, and I would expect they are cursing giving up all those nukes they had.


----------



## GoldenGate

GoldenGate said:


> Here you go anti-vaxxers.  The new conspiracy theory is hot off the presses.  The government is trying to kill you with fatal vaccines in order to reset/reduce world population, and social media is covering it up.  That makes so much more sense than just not funding a vaccine, letting people die of Covid and blaming China for it creating a deadly virus in a lab.  But I guess that doesn't work since you also have a conspiracy theory that no one is dying of Covid, but they're really dying from gunshots and in motorcycle accidents "with" Covid.  Except on Fridays, which are xenophobia day awhen you claim the real conspiracy is that China is responsible for everything bad, including creating a fatal virus in a lab and also that Eileen Gu is a traitor and you're a patriot because you once bought a pair of shoes made in Spain.
> 
> I am shocked, absolutely shocked about the complete silence from the other anti-vaxxer loons who are at least trying to establish a pretense of legitimacy.  But here you go watfly and grace equestrian.  These are your people.  This clown, crush and micshitforbrains relying on a Bangladesh study. That is your brain trust.


Shoot, I forgot to include the guy with the intentionally racist name as one of the conspiracy theory nutters:



thirteenknots said:


> Embalmers are finding what the CDC/WHO/NIH already KNOW!!!!
> 
> Embalmers Find Veins And Arteries Filled With Never Before Seen Rubbery Clots by Dr. Jane Ruby. (rumble.com)


----------



## GoldenGate

I totally want to play this game of trying to create the most ridiculous possible conspiracy theory.  Let's give it a try:

Ok, so the government imposed mask mandates knowing they're unnecessary because it's true goal is to control people.  It starts simple with masks, but before you know it they'll be taking our guns and then all of our liberties.  Oh wait, that one is taken? What about putting anyone who resists into secret Nazi-style concentration camps?  Who on earth would make up something that crazy?

How about China made Covid in a lab as part of a conspiracy to to kill people in the west?  Also taken?

I'm sure no one has claimed yet that no one is really dying of Covid, it's just people dying from gunshots and in motorcycle accidents being used as a cover for a conspiracy between the government and pharmaceut... What, also taken?

Ok, how about China made it in a lab but it isn't really deadly.  Rather, Dr. Fauci paid for it as part of a false flag operation on behalf of the US government, so it could then create a secret formula to kill people slowly as part of its effort to reduce the current population and replace them with illegal aliens.  In fact, the illegal aliens are part of the conspiracy, and never mind that I said it isn't fatal, because actually it is fatal if an illegal alien has it, but not to the illegals who are invading the country.  Really it's just fatal to people in the old folks homes that the illegals are invading, so I don't need to worry about it and can feel free to hit the bars.  Shit, also taken. 

Ok, maybe simpler is better.  Masks don't work.  I heard it from some guy in Bangledesh at a super duper secret website that is the only real place to get real news.  Everything different that you get from newspapers is fake.  All the news outlets are fake.  Even Fox News is even fake.  It's all fake except for this secret place that has the real deal.  Which also says it heard from a guy in Tennessee who heard an embalmer who has top secret proof that the vaccine is killing everyone by turning their blood to rubber.

Man, this is harder than I thought.  OK, let's just go with the theory that this kiddie soccer website has been overrun by a combination of completely mentally ill nut jobs and covert Russian operatives who are taking advantage of these weak-minded fools in the hope that they'll put their viking hats back on and storm the Capitol again.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Might want to check the qualifications on your source.  His own alma mater refers to him as a “misinformation superspreader”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This tech millionaire went from covid trial funder to misinformation superspreader
> 
> 
> After boosting unproven covid drugs and campaigning against vaccines, Steve Kirsch was abandoned by his team of scientific advisers—and left out of a job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.technologyreview.com


Bang! Messenger dead, well done.

Now, what are your thoughts on the Bangladesh Study?






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Grace T.

Trudeau has backed down from the emergencies act.

He and the left leaning media are claiming its because the border blockade is over, and the occupation in Ottawa is done.  They say existing laws are enough (why weren't they enough before???) even though the threat continues.

The protestors and the more skeptical media is saying that Trudeau got push back in Parliament, specifically the Senate.  Canadian banks began to have problems.  A lawsuit has been filed by the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.  Protests are ongoing not just in Ottawa but across the provinces. 

I don't think it's the end of it.  The protestors will smell blood in the water and the question is how much will the Ukraine push it off the headlines.










						Trudeau revokes Emergencies Act, saying existing laws are enough to deal with protesters | CNN
					

The Canadian government announced Wednesday it will lift the Emergencies Act, nine days after it was invoked, saying police have the tools they need to continue to deal with unlawful protesters.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Grace T.

They are prepping us for the next round of economic doo doo.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496605288241278996


----------



## Grace T.

Oh really!!! Who would have thunk it.'

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496607866031071238


----------



## Grace T.

Another way the idiots in public health have failed.  They finally increased the interval dose to help reduce side effects.  Like some of the European countries did.  Like many front line doctors (including members of my family) had recommended.  Like several of us have been urging them to do.  Brilliant.  Great work guys.  Now maybe we can get you to aspirate the injections to avoid having it shot directly into the blood stream.  I swear this geniuses are truly amazing.









						CDC updates guidance for intervals between COVID-19 vaccine doses
					

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on Tuesday issued new COVID-19 mRNA vaccine guidance, expanding the recommended time between the initial two vaccine doses to eig…




					thehill.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> They are prepping us for the next round of economic doo doo.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496605288241278996


Biden is rapidly headed past Carter territory into the worst modern president land (not all of it was his fault...we'd still have the supply shock, the COVID vaccine failures at least as far as transmission, inflation though the Ds spending probably made it worse, the learning societal and economic fallout of the Trump NPIs, Putin still might have invaded the Ukraine but it was made more likely by the debacle of Afghanistan and US weakness in the Iran negotiations....but still whether partially or entirely his fault, he is rapidly becoming one of the worst Presidents ever and if the war is bad and the resulting economic shock even here in the  US, there's nothing now that will save him from the midterm thumping sitting right now as one of the biggest in a century).


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Biden is rapidly headed past Carter territory into the worst modern president land (not all of it was his fault...we'd still have the supply shock, the COVID vaccine failures at least as far as transmission, inflation though the Ds spending probably made it worse, the learning societal and economic fallout of the Trump NPIs, Putin still might have invaded the Ukraine but it was made more likely by the debacle of Afghanistan and US weakness in the Iran negotiations....but still whether partially or entirely his fault, he is rapidly becoming one of the worst Presidents ever and if the war is bad and the resulting economic shock even here in the  US, there's nothing now that will save him from the midterm thumping sitting right now as one of the biggest in a century).


Worst modern President?  Do you have that short a memory span?


----------



## thirteenknots

THEY HAVE STOLEN EVERYTHING! Leslie Manookian at the Corona Grand Jury, Day 5 (bitchute.com)


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Here you go anti-vaxxers.  The new conspiracy theory is hot off the presses.  The government is trying to kill you with fatal vaccines in order to reset/reduce world population, and social media is covering it up.  That makes so much more sense than just not funding a vaccine, letting people die of Covid and blaming China for it creating a deadly virus in a lab.  But I guess that doesn't work since you also have a conspiracy theory that no one is dying of Covid, but they're really dying from gunshots and in motorcycle accidents "with" Covid.  Except on Fridays, which are xenophobia day awhen you claim the real conspiracy is that China is responsible for everything bad, including creating a fatal virus in a lab and also that Eileen Gu is a traitor and you're a patriot because you once bought a pair of shoes made in Spain.
> 
> I am shocked, absolutely shocked about the complete silence from the other anti-vaxxer loons who are at least trying to establish a pretense of legitimacy.  But here you go watfly and grace equestrian.  These are your people.  This clown, crush and micshitforbrains relying on a Bangladesh study. That is your brain trust.



I am shocked you are just smart enough to
bring forth your ignorance on the TRUTH.

When the TRUTH slaps you upside the noggin
we your fellow human beings will still try to
assist you in digesting the TRUTH.

Please get a complete blood/health checkup.

Don't Poo Poo what I'm encouraging.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Worst modern President?  Do you have that short a memory span?


Trump?  He’s a blowhard, completely crazy and I hated the end but things pre covid were certainly much better than they are now, both domestically and internationally, and he was a restraining force on birx, but for things certainly would be much worse.   Not a trump fan, hope he doesn’t run but I do long for 2019 as a pleasantly remembered time, and the election was close while the midterms at least right now is shaping up to be an epic if not a once in a generation defeat. While bad certainly not the worst

obama?  I was a believer. Huge disappointment he didn’t live up to the rhetoric and started the really partisan division but also things werent so bad

bush?  Didn’t approve of the Iraq war or his experts being asleep at the switch in 2008. Again not a fan but things weren’t this awful

Clinton?  Personal failings but thought he was actually pretty good

biden? I doubt he has the capacity to handle the presidency and has been one disaster after another.  He ran as a Uniter and divided us instead. He ran as a caretaker but instead tried to be the new lbj. He inherited a mess and admittedly if trump had won he’d have many of the same problems but Biden has made them uniquely worse. Not all under his control but he is rapidly heading for worst status which, as you point out, is quite an achievement.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Trump?  He’s a blowhard, completely crazy and I hated the end but things pre covid were certainly much better than they are now, both domestically and internationally, and he was a restraining force on birx, but for things certainly would be much worse.   Not a trump fan, hope he doesn’t run but I do long for 2019 as a pleasantly remembered time, and the election was close while the midterms at least right now is shaping up to be an epic if not a once in a generation defeat. While bad certainly not the worst
> 
> obama?  I was a believer. Huge disappointment he didn’t live up to the rhetoric and started the really partisan division but also things werent so bad
> 
> bush?  Didn’t approve of the Iraq war or his experts being asleep at the switch in 2008. Again not a fan but things weren’t this awful
> 
> Clinton?  Personal failings but thought he was actually pretty good
> 
> biden? I doubt he has the capacity to handle the presidency and has been one disaster after another.  He ran as a Uniter and divided us instead. He ran as a caretaker but instead tried to be the new lbj. He inherited a mess and admittedly if trump had won he’d have many of the same problems but Biden has made them uniquely worse. Not all under his control but he is rapidly heading for worst status which, as you point out, is quite an achievement.



Not a Trump fan?  You aren't fooling anybody.

Please continue.


----------



## Brav520

2 Prosecutors Leading N.Y. Trump Inquiry Resign, Clouding Case’s Future
					

The resignations came after the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, was said to have expressed doubts about the case.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Not a Trump fan?  You aren't fooling anybody.
> 
> Please continue.


The comedy is always welcome. Much better than your pseudo attempts at honest discussion

please continue


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> The comedy is always welcome. Much better than your pseudo attempts at honest discussion


Ha! Yeah, @espola and honest discussion just don’t go together.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ha! Yeah, @espola and honest discussion just don’t go together.


We know that ad hominem attacks are Grace's weakness.  Are they yours now also?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Biden is rapidly headed past Carter territory into the worst modern president land (not all of it was his fault...we'd still have the supply shock, the COVID vaccine failures at least as far as transmission, inflation though the Ds spending probably made it worse, the learning societal and economic fallout of the Trump NPIs, Putin still might have invaded the Ukraine but it was made more likely by the debacle of Afghanistan and US weakness in the Iran negotiations....but still whether partially or entirely his fault, he is rapidly becoming one of the worst Presidents ever and if the war is bad and the resulting economic shock even here in the  US, there's nothing now that will save him from the midterm thumping sitting right now as one of the biggest in a century).


trump was the worst. Historically Carter isn’t even in the top 10 of worst.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Trump?  He’s a blowhard, completely crazy and I hated the end but things pre covid were certainly much better than they are now, both domestically and internationally, and he was a restraining force on birx, but for things certainly would be much worse.   Not a trump fan, hope he doesn’t run but I do long for 2019 as a pleasantly remembered time, and the election was close while the midterms at least right now is shaping up to be an epic if not a once in a generation defeat. While bad certainly not the worst
> 
> obama?  I was a believer. Huge disappointment he didn’t live up to the rhetoric and started the really partisan division but also things werent so bad
> 
> bush?  Didn’t approve of the Iraq war or his experts being asleep at the switch in 2008. Again not a fan but things weren’t this awful
> 
> Clinton?  Personal failings but thought he was actually pretty good
> 
> biden? I doubt he has the capacity to handle the presidency and has been one disaster after another.  He ran as a Uniter and divided us instead. He ran as a caretaker but instead tried to be the new lbj. He inherited a mess and admittedly if trump had won he’d have many of the same problems but Biden has made them uniquely worse. Not all under his control but he is rapidly heading for worst status which, as you point out, is quite an achievement.


Pre-Covid aka still riding on Obama’s coattails. trump bankrupt casinos of all things! I have been to casinos that started in tents and are now luxury resorts, lol!


----------



## Brav520

Trump was terrible

 Wait no, Trump was just riding Obama”s coattails


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Pre-Covid aka still riding on Obama’s coattails. trump bankrupt casinos of all things! I have been to casinos that started in tents and are now luxury resorts, lol!


All it takes is an honest attitude and attention to detail.  I just spent 4 nights at the Sycuan Hotel.  That clan has risen from a square mile of poverty into a powerful economic engine that provides housing, healthcare, education, and pride for its members.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> All it takes is an honest attitude and attention to detail.  I just spent 4 nights at the Sycuan Hotel.  That clan has risen from a square mile of poverty into a powerful economic engine that provides housing, healthcare, education, and pride for its members.


Those are my homies! Chunky and the boys have done well! Oh the stories I could tell! Lol!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Those are my homies! Chunky and the boys have done well! Oh the stories I could tell! Lol!


One of my wife's best friends married into the tribe.  Her husband told me at dinner one night (at one of the resort's restaurants, of course) that the only luxury he had as a kid was getting on the school bus to go to high school.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Biden is rapidly headed past Carter territory into the worst modern president land (not all of it was his fault...we'd still have the supply shock, the COVID vaccine failures at least as far as transmission, inflation though the Ds spending probably made it worse, the learning societal and economic fallout of the Trump NPIs, Putin still might have invaded the Ukraine but it was made more likely by the debacle of Afghanistan and US weakness in the Iran negotiations....but still whether partially or entirely his fault, he is rapidly becoming one of the worst Presidents ever and if the war is bad and the resulting economic shock even here in the  US, there's nothing now that will save him from the midterm thumping sitting right now as one of the biggest in a century).


Biden is bad, but no way does he reach the extremes that Carter did.  Were still about 15,000 basis points away from Carter bad.  Biden may end up having more quantity of disasters, but I don't see him having the quality of disasters that Carter had with the economy and the Middle East.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> One of my wife's best friends married into the tribe.  Her husband told me at dinner one night (at one of the resort's restaurants, of course) that the only luxury he had as a kid was getting on the school bus to go to high school.


This story about the land just down the creek from where we live now ties in with the Sycuan story.  After the Kreutzer family all went to jail for murdering the son-in-law, their Big Oak Ranch property was put on the market.  The tribe bought it in the late 80's and converted it to 8 big houses for tribal families plus a playground and a tribal education center.









						Kreutzer's Wife, 2 Sons Plead Guilty in Murder
					

The wife and two sons of Big Oak Ranch owner Herman G.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> Oh really!!! Who would have thunk it.'
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496607866031071238


Hey GoldenShower, here is a conspiracy theory for you and your merry band of circle-jerkers. 
@GoldenGate


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Biden is bad, but no way does he reach the extremes that Carter did.  Were still about 15,000 basis points away from Carter bad.  Biden may end up having more quantity of disasters, but I don't see him having the quality of disasters that Carter had with the economy and the Middle East.


Things aren’t as bad as they are going to get economy wise. The fed really has no choice at this point given the Ukraine. The 70s are back baby!

and for the record y’all I nailed the Ukraine dates within 24 hours. Given my track record, it should worry y’all that I’m more worried about a nuclear exchange over the Baltic’s, Taiwan or Sweden than I am about climate change, the cylons, or the smod.

a fun theory that’s been going around is the dad got tired of the game after the us won the Cold War and handed the game off to his kid who experimented with a few invasions, a plague and now this.


----------



## Brav520

Is this supposed to be an attack from the NYT?

Dr. Joseph Ladapo is expected to be confirmed soon as Florida’s new surgeon general. He is against mask mandates and lockdowns, only supports vaccination campaigns if the shots are voluntary and will not say whether he himself has been vaccinated.









						The Doctor Giving DeSantis’s Pandemic Policies a Seal of Approval
					

Dr. Joseph Ladapo, Florida’s new surgeon general, has vowed to “completely reject fear” in managing the pandemic.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> This story about the land just down the creek from where we live now ties in with the Sycuan story.  After the Kreutzer family all went to jail for murdering the son-in-law, their Big Oak Ranch property was put on the market.  The tribe bought it in the late 80's and converted it to 8 big houses for tribal families plus a playground and a tribal education center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kreutzer's Wife, 2 Sons Plead Guilty in Murder
> 
> 
> The wife and two sons of Big Oak Ranch owner Herman G.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


Yeah I remember that. I grew up just up the road from there but had moved out in 1979. I didn’t know any of those people but knew the vibe around there (Harbison Canyon or Harbo as we called it) had always been bad. Druggies, drunks and violence.


----------



## Desert Hound

This is a good read as it relates to events in Canada.

*When it comes to distant*_ and adversarial countries, we are taught to recognize tyranny through the use of telltale tactics of repression. Dissent from orthodoxies is censored. Protests against the state are outlawed. Dissenters are harshly punished with no due process. Long prison terms are doled out for political transgressions rather than crimes of violence. Journalists are treated as criminals and spies. Opposition to the policies of political leaders are recast as crimes against the state.

When a government that is adverse to the West engages in such conduct, it is not just easy but obligatory to malign it as despotic. Thus can one find, on a virtually daily basis, articles in the Western press citing the government's use of those tactics in Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela and whatever other countries the West has an interest in disparaging (articles about identical tactics from regimes supported by the West — from Riyadh to Cairo — are much rarer). That the use of these repressive tactics render these countries and their populations subject to autocratic regimes is considered undebatable.

But when these weapons are wielded by Western governments, the precise opposite framework is imposed: describing them as despotic is no longer obligatory but virtually prohibited. That tyranny exists only in Western adversaries but never in the West itself is treated as a permanent axiom of international affairs, as if Western democracies are divinely shielded from the temptations of genuine repression. Indeed, to suggest that a Western democracy has descended to the same level of authoritarian repression as the West's official enemies is to assert a proposition deemed intrinsically absurd or even vaguely treasonous.

The implicit guarantor of this comforting framework is democracy.
--

Watching Justin Trudeau — the sweet, well-mannered, well-raised good-boy prince of one of the West's nicest countries featuring such a pretty visage (even on the numerous occasions when marred by blackface) — invoke and then harshly impose dubious emergency, civil-liberties-denying powers is just the latest swing of the hammer causing this Western sculpture to crumble. In sum, you are required by Western propaganda to treat the two images below as fundamentally different; indeed, huge numbers of people in the West vehemently denounce the one on the left while enthusiastically applauding the one on the right. Such brittle mythology can be sustained only for so long:_












						The Neoliberal War on Dissent in the West
					

Those who most flamboyantly proclaim that they are fighting fascists continue to embrace and wield the defining weapons of despotism.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Things aren’t as bad as they are going to get economy wise. The fed really has no choice at this point given the Ukraine. The 70s are back baby!
> 
> and for the record y’all I nailed the Ukraine dates within 24 hours. Given my track record, it should worry y’all that I’m more worried about a nuclear exchange over the Baltic’s, Taiwan or Sweden than I am about climate change, the cylons, or the smod.
> 
> a fun theory that’s been going around is the dad got tired of the game after the us won the Cold War and handed the game off to his kid who experimented with a few invasions, a plague and now this.


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Oh really!!! Who would have thunk it.'
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496607866031071238


She must be preparing to run for office...


----------



## Desert Hound

This little clip highlights how off base much of the D leadership is.

Kerry is worried about climate change and highlights that as he talks about the Ukraine.









						Not a parody, part 2: John Kerry warns of the carbon footprint of Russia's invasion of Ukraine
					

You can't make this up...




					twitchy.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This little clip highlights how off base much of the D leadership is.
> 
> Kerry is worried about climate change and highlights that as he talks about the Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parody, part 2: John Kerry warns of the carbon footprint of Russia's invasion of Ukraine
> 
> 
> You can't make this up...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> twitchy.com


He has become an "expert".


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> This is a good read as it relates to events in Canada.
> 
> *When it comes to distant*_ and adversarial countries, we are taught to recognize tyranny through the use of telltale tactics of repression. Dissent from orthodoxies is censored. Protests against the state are outlawed. Dissenters are harshly punished with no due process. Long prison terms are doled out for political transgressions rather than crimes of violence. Journalists are treated as criminals and spies. Opposition to the policies of political leaders are recast as crimes against the state.
> 
> When a government that is adverse to the West engages in such conduct, it is not just easy but obligatory to malign it as despotic. Thus can one find, on a virtually daily basis, articles in the Western press citing the government's use of those tactics in Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela and whatever other countries the West has an interest in disparaging (articles about identical tactics from regimes supported by the West — from Riyadh to Cairo — are much rarer). That the use of these repressive tactics render these countries and their populations subject to autocratic regimes is considered undebatable.
> 
> But when these weapons are wielded by Western governments, the precise opposite framework is imposed: describing them as despotic is no longer obligatory but virtually prohibited. That tyranny exists only in Western adversaries but never in the West itself is treated as a permanent axiom of international affairs, as if Western democracies are divinely shielded from the temptations of genuine repression. Indeed, to suggest that a Western democracy has descended to the same level of authoritarian repression as the West's official enemies is to assert a proposition deemed intrinsically absurd or even vaguely treasonous.
> 
> The implicit guarantor of this comforting framework is democracy.
> --
> 
> Watching Justin Trudeau — the sweet, well-mannered, well-raised good-boy prince of one of the West's nicest countries featuring such a pretty visage (even on the numerous occasions when marred by blackface) — invoke and then harshly impose dubious emergency, civil-liberties-denying powers is just the latest swing of the hammer causing this Western sculpture to crumble. In sum, you are required by Western propaganda to treat the two images below as fundamentally different; indeed, huge numbers of people in the West vehemently denounce the one on the left while enthusiastically applauding the one on the right. Such brittle mythology can be sustained only for so long:_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Neoliberal War on Dissent in the West
> 
> 
> Those who most flamboyantly proclaim that they are fighting fascists continue to embrace and wield the defining weapons of despotism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenwald.substack.com


I love it.  Canada is the authoritarian despotic government compared to Russia because you don't like the fact that its country's elected officials are using laws enacted through a democratic process by legislators who were also elected by the people, all of whom may be removed at any time through democratic process if they don't like the laws that were implemented by the very people they voted for.  

Meanwhile, Russia isn't so bad in comparison although it is run by an actual despot who was not elected by the people and routinely murders those who dissent including members of the media and political dissenters, and who is invading a country right now. 

You don't even understand what democracy is, do you?  Democracy is not whining like a little baby that actual elected officials enacted laws that you don't like.  You don't even understand that you're just an unwitting stooge who is supporting autocracy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> I love it.  Canada is the authoritarian despotic government compared to Russia because you don't like the fact that its country's elected officials are using laws enacted through a democratic process by legislators who were also elected by the people, all of whom may be removed at any time through democratic process if they don't like the laws that were implemented by the very people they voted for.
> 
> Meanwhile, Russia isn't so bad in comparison although it is run by an actual despot who was not elected by the people and routinely murders those who dissent including members of the media and political dissenters, and who is invading a country right now.
> 
> You don't even understand what democracy is, do you?  Democracy is not whining like a little baby that actual elected officials enacted laws that you don't like.  You don't even understand that you're just an unwitting stooge who is supporting autocracy.


That type reaction has been cultivated over the years through misinformation and propaganda operations like all the bot activities in support of trump in 2016.


----------



## dad4

A democracy of 44 million people was just invaded.  

Time to put the red and blue hats away for a bit.  We need to work together to help them.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> A democracy of 44 million people was just invaded.
> 
> Time to put the red and blue hats away for a bit.  We need to work together to help them.


Watching Fox I see Lindsey G. and Ted G. waving the trump flag, hard, while others are pulling for America, first.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> A democracy of 44 million people was just invaded.
> 
> Time to put the red and blue hats away for a bit.  We need to work together to help them.


We aren't the problem....our allies are....Germany supposedly veto more severe energy sanctions and kicking Russia off the Swift system.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> We aren't the problem....our allies are....Germany supposedly veto more severe energy sanctions and kicking Russia off the Swift system.


By "we" I assume you are not including all you t fans.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> We aren't the problem....our allies are....Germany supposedly veto more severe energy sanctions and kicking Russia off the Swift system.


Apparently, the Russians have been working on a substitute system for Swift since 2014 (sanctions hit them) and have something that will allow them to continue to send international transfers, albeit not as easily as Swift. So it would be inconvenient to Russia, but not much more. 

Meanwhile in the UK's capital city, otherwise known as Londongrad given the volume of Russian oligarchs that live there and clean their money through the city, Boris is on the case - & the Conservatives are well acquainted with the Russians, God knows they've taken enough money off them (political donations and for Brexit which Putin was all in favor of).


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> By "we" I assume you are not including all you t fans.


Again, Husker is doing the troll thing better.  I took dad 4 at his word...."we" is the blue and red hats....literally what he was talking about...."we" as in "Americans".  You chose to immediately after he called for unity to go full out Trump derangement syndrome.  Thereby almost immediately disproving what dad4 was talking about.  Tiresome and predictable.  It's not even good trolling.

p.s. I dispute that Ukraine is wholly a democracy....it's a bit of a kleptocracy with some dictatorial and democratic tendencies mixed in....still the principle is one stated doesn't invade another, regardless of form of government, as the first gulf war and Kuwait illustrates.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Again, Husker is doing the troll thing better.  I took dad 4 at his word...."we" is the blue and red hats....literally what he was talking about...."we" as in "Americans".  You chose to immediately after he called for unity to go full out Trump derangement syndrome.  Thereby almost immediately disproving what dad4 was talking about.  Tiresome and predictable.  It's not even good trolling.
> 
> p.s. I dispute that Ukraine is wholly a democracy....it's a bit of a kleptocracy with some dictatorial and democratic tendencies mixed in....still the principle is one stated doesn't invade another, regardless of form of government, as the first gulf war and Kuwait illustrates.


FYI - Next tiresome and predictable moment - he'll go full "whiney bitch" about your ad hominems.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> FYI - Next tiresome and predictable moment - he'll go full "whiney bitch" about your ad hominems.


Nice example.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Again, Husker is doing the troll thing better.  I took dad 4 at his word...."we" is the blue and red hats....literally what he was talking about...."we" as in "Americans".  You chose to immediately after he called for unity to go full out Trump derangement syndrome.  Thereby almost immediately disproving what dad4 was talking about.  Tiresome and predictable.  It's not even good trolling.
> 
> p.s. I dispute that Ukraine is wholly a democracy....it's a bit of a kleptocracy with some dictatorial and democratic tendencies mixed in....still the principle is one stated doesn't invade another, regardless of form of government, as the first gulf war and Kuwait illustrates.


Have you passed this by Tucker and the GOP leadership today?  They still prefer Putin to Biden.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Have you passed this by Tucker and the GOP leadership today?  They still prefer Putin to Biden.


Meh....again your trolling is slipping.  McConnell BTW just issued a statement that we need to rally behind Ukraine so once again you aren't even being a really good troll so what is the "GOP leadership".   It's certainly not Tucker (what BTW is his position that you are attacking...haven't seen anything)


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Again, Husker is doing the troll thing better.  I took dad 4 at his word...."we" is the blue and red hats....literally what he was talking about...."we" as in "Americans".  You chose to immediately after he called for unity to go full out Trump derangement syndrome.  Thereby almost immediately disproving what dad4 was talking about.  Tiresome and predictable.  It's not even good trolling.
> 
> p.s. I dispute that Ukraine is wholly a democracy....it's a bit of a kleptocracy with some dictatorial and democratic tendencies mixed in....still the principle is one stated doesn't invade another, regardless of form of government, as the first gulf war and Kuwait illustrates.


You would know that Ukraine is not wholly a democracy, since you went to a law school that had a professor who provided guidance on the proposed Ukranian constitution, which you then embellished to the point of claiming you wrote it.  Remember?

This is so great.  Canada is an enemy to democracy.  Germany is an enemy to democracy.  And now the country that just got invaded is an enemy of democracy.  You and your friends have just spent the last four days blaming everyone but the actual autocratic despot who invaded a country - including the country he invaded - of being anti-democracy.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh....again your trolling is slipping.  McConnell BTW just issued a statement that we need to rally behind Ukraine so once again you aren't even being a really good troll so what is the "GOP leadership".   It's certainly not Tucker (what BTW is his position that you are attacking...haven't seen anything)


Tucker's monologs are being replayed in Russia with Russian subtitles.

T, Stefanik, Graham, Hawley, etc are more critical of Biden than Putin in this crisis.

Please continue.  This is delightful.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Meh....again your trolling is slipping.  McConnell BTW just issued a statement that we need to rally behind Ukraine so once again you aren't even being a really good troll so what is the "GOP leadership".   It's certainly not Tucker (what BTW is his position that you are attacking...haven't seen anything)


So McConnell is back in with the t-squad? I thought all ya all were gonna primary him for his refusal to be 100% t-compliant?


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Meh....again your trolling is slipping.  McConnell BTW just issued a statement that we need to rally behind Ukraine so once again you aren't even being a really good troll so what is the "GOP leadership".   It's certainly not Tucker (what BTW is his position that you are attacking...haven't seen anything)


The equestrian actually thinks that people have forgotten his nickname is Moscow Mitch for a reason. Talk is cheap, and nobody knows that better than the dude without a chin.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Tucker's monologs are being replayed in Russia with Russian subtitles.
> 
> T, Stefanik, Graham, Hawley, etc are more critical of Biden than Putin in this crisis.
> 
> Please continue.  This is delightful.


  Yawn.  Again see how Busker did it.  It's better.  You are slipping in the trolling.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> By "we" I assume you are not including all you t fans.


this is trumpie's fault?  so much winning going on right now..

so much winning:
coherent biden energy policy?  Nope
firm leadership, influencing NATO/UN security council? nope
forward thinking, influential action to deter?  nope

Before you type it...bad trump isn't the right answer.  I did a little checkin - don't think any despots invaded any country lately, until now.

but you will find some way to chalk this up to your orange boogy man when in fact the blame should land squarely at the feet of those in power right now - on both sides of the fence...

at least we know masks don't really work.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Tucker's monologs are being replayed in Russia with Russian subtitles.
> 
> T, Stefanik, Graham, Hawley, etc are more critical of Biden than Putin in this crisis.
> 
> Please continue.  This is delightful.


just start singing la, la la...Everyone knows what putin is, no reason to rehash.  biden on the other hand was the saviour, the adult, the varsity team captain.  circle the wagons though.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> A democracy of 44 million people was just invaded.
> 
> Time to put the red and blue hats away for a bit.  We need to work together to help them.


that train has clearly left the station, without us on it.  now we send sternly worded letters and hope putin doesn't continue south to moldova, which is also not a NATO member..Foolish move for sure but so is invading Ukraine.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hey….that’s 2 borders Kamala failed to protect!


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> just start singing la, la la...Everyone knows what putin is, no reason to rehash.  biden on the other hand was the saviour, the adult, the varsity team captain.  circle the wagons though.


I love how right wingers like you can't even muster the courage to say anything negative about your boyfriend's boyfriend other than you don't want to talk about it, and then try to change the subject by making fun of Biden. Meanwhile, your buddy is on cray cray radio claiming Putin's Ukraine strategy is genius and he'll be such a great peacekeeper there, and how smart it is to take over a country when the only thing as stake is $2 worth of sanctions.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> this is trumpie's fault?  so much winning going on right now..
> 
> so much winning:
> coherent biden energy policy?  Nope
> firm leadership, influencing NATO/UN security council? nope
> forward thinking, influential action to deter?  nope
> 
> Before you type it...bad trump isn't the right answer.  I did a little checkin - don't think any despots invaded any country lately, until now.
> 
> but you will find some way to chalk this up to your orange boogy man when in fact the blame should land squarely at the feet of those in power right now - on both sides of the fence...
> 
> at least we know masks don't really work.


They voted for a senile candidate...you really expect them to have anything of substance?


----------



## watfly

Can't Biden just hit the reset button?

All sarcasm aside, I hope these sanctions have an impact and I hope they follow through with getting Europe less dependent on Russian energy.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I love how right wingers like you can't even muster the courage to say anything negative about your boyfriend's boyfriend other than you don't want to talk about it, and then try to change the subject by making fun of Biden. Meanwhile, your buddy is on cray cray radio claiming Putin's Ukraine strategy is genius and he'll be such a great peacekeeper there, and how smart it is to take over a country when the only thing as stake is $2 worth of sanctions.


Your grasp of most subjects is very low, in this case it's lower than I anticipated.  What exactly is it that you want to talk about?  I'm not making fun of anyone, that's your department - you are very good at being the forum clown, we take some amount of joy in that.  We also feel a bit sorry for you but that quickly wanes, much like current vaccines on the market. 

Why would you think I'm a "right winger"?  Because I don't support silly mask mandates (since masks have been proven to not really work) and vaccine mandates for healthy rug rats?  

Putin's Ukraine strategy has certainly been effective, and bold.  It's also reckless  but that's how old KGB zealots with dreams of reviving the Russian empire roll.  If you seriously think our strategy over the last 30 days or so has been anything but crap, I have some beachfront property to sell you in Yuma, or modesto.   Whichever one you feel better about ridiculing.  Your bravery is on point.


----------



## Brav520

watfly said:


> Can't Biden just hit the reset button?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, I hope these sanctions have an impact and I hope they follow through with getting Europe less dependent on Russian energy.


CBS News' Brennan on Biden saying "No one expected sanctions to prevent anything.":

"Actually, that's exactly what his foreign policy team said again and again, and it's what his secretary of state said to me on Sunday"


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> I love how right wingers like you can't even muster the courage to say anything negative about your boyfriend's boyfriend other than you don't want to talk about it, and then try to change the subject by making fun of Biden. Meanwhile, your buddy is on cray cray radio claiming Putin's Ukraine strategy is genius and he'll be such a great peacekeeper there, and how smart it is to take over a country when the only thing as stake is $2 worth of sanctions.


Homophobic bigotry - your rules not mine.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> Can't Biden just hit the reset button?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, I hope these sanctions have an impact and I hope they follow through with getting Europe less dependent on Russian energy.


He woke up today hoping he was having a bad dream, hoping some oatmeal would soothe him this morning..  Unfortunately he has to lead - make s decisions that will not be popular amongst the progressive side of his party.  Energy independence and a deliberate/calculated  approach to it will take some discipline - he isn't know for discipline.  At least he stood up to corn pop.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Can't Biden just hit the reset button?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, I hope these sanctions have an impact and I hope they follow through with getting Europe less dependent on Russian energy.


Europeans need to get energy from somewhere and buying from Russia was a purposeful strategy since the collapse of the Soviets to "bring" Russia into the capitalist fold and its nearer and cheaper than anywhere else. Putin (who has been in charge basically since 1999) losing it after 22 years in power is screwing with that.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Your grasp of most subjects is very low, in this case it's lower than I anticipated.  What exactly is it that you want to talk about?  I'm not making fun of anyone, that's your department - you are very good at being the forum clown, we take some amount of joy in that.  We also feel a bit sorry for you but that quickly wanes, much like current vaccines on the market.
> 
> Why would you think I'm a "right winger"?  Because I don't support silly mask mandates (since masks have been proven to not really work) and vaccine mandates for healthy rug rats?
> 
> Putin's Ukraine strategy has certainly been effective, and bold.  It's also reckless  but that's how old KGB zealots with dreams of reviving the Russian empire roll.  If you seriously think our strategy over the last 30 days or so has been anything but crap, I have some beachfront property to sell you in Yuma, or modesto.   Whichever one you feel better about ridiculing.  Your bravery is on point.


You think a despot invading a democratic country with a military less than 1/10th its size is "bold" and "effective". Your master similarly claims it is "genius" and that he'll be a great "peacekeeper".

In a single day, you nutters have accused Canada, Germany, Biden, Harris, the UN, John Kerry, NATO, and even the democratic country that got invaded, of subverting democracy.  Everyone but the actual despot who actually invaded a democratic country.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

__ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/346359280928986


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/346359280928986


if they were ludicrous, then why did Trudeau crack down harshly on them

of course , Putin is going crackdown on this and what do you know here is his reasoning


Russia's interior ministry tells TV viewers to "refrain from unsanctioned protests" & or they'll be "arrested & brought to responsibility."
That's because there are "coronavirus restrictions, including on public events."
Not because of calls to protest the war or anything


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You think a despot invading a democratic country with a military less than 1/10th its size is "bold" and "effective". Your master similarly claims it is "genius" and that he'll be a great "peacekeeper".
> 
> In a single day, you nutters have accused Canada, Germany, Biden, Harris, the UN, John Kerry, NATO, and even the democratic country that got invaded, of subverting democracy.  Everyone but the actual despot who actually invaded a democratic country.


It is bold, and so far effective....doesn't mean it's right.  You can put your head in whatever crevice you desire, but the fact that Russia has been able to pull off (so far) a complex military operation is quite suprising to many.  You are too stoopid to do an unbiased analysis of anything, it's why we like you and why you fly the clown flag so vigoruously.  How this ends is still unclear.  But you go right ahead and turn to another page in your play book, identify your prepared passage, and respond.  Let me guess - master, trump, nutter will be sprinkled liberally throughout. 

You should really check your history  on size of militaries, nations, and outcomes.  The least you can do is come to the table educated and coherent.

Unfortunately for the Ukranians, there will be no russian peacekeeping.  The other stuff you pecked away to describe is jibberish.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/346359280928986


anything for attention huh.  It's been what - 20 mins since some hollywood "nutter" has been in the limelight?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/346359280928986


Maybe we need more Trekkies in government.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> It is bold, and so far effective....doesn't mean it's right.  You can put your head in whatever crevice you desire, but the fact that Russia has been able to pull off (so far) a complex military operation is quite suprising to many.  You are too stoopid to do an unbiased analysis of anything, it's why we like you and why you fly the clown flag so vigoruously.  How this ends is still unclear.  But you go right ahead and turn to another page in your play book, identify your prepared passage, and respond.  Let me guess - master, trump, nutter will be sprinkled liberally throughout.
> 
> You should really check your history  on size of militaries, nations, and outcomes.  The least you can do is come to the table educated and coherent.
> 
> Unfortunately for the Ukranians, there will be no russian peacekeeping.  The other stuff you pecked away to describe is jibberish.


Again, he voted for a senile  babbling idiot - what are you expecting?


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Can't Biden just hit the reset button?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, I hope these sanctions have an impact and I hope they follow through with getting Europe less dependent on Russian energy.


Doubtful.  Looks like the failure to get Europe on board to cut off Russia from swift or to do tough energy sanctions is going to encourage him.  Some reports indicate the Russians will be in Kiev in one or two days. The only thing that will hurt at this point is if the us furnished weapons particularly handheld surface to air over the polish and Romanian borders but that will escalate things between us. There is a more than non zero chance of a nuclear exchange building…if not over Ukraine then over Taiwan (its obvious at this point the Moscow Beijing Tehran axis is a thing) the Baltic’s or Sweden. Not necessarily tomorrow but in the near future.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Doubtful.  Looks like the failure to get Europe on board to cut off Russia from swift or to do tough energy sanctions is going to encourage him.  Some reports indicate the Russians will be in Kiev in one or two days. The only thing that will hurt at this point is if the us furnished weapons particularly handheld surface to air over the polish and Romanian borders but that will escalate things between us. There is a more than non zero chance of a nuclear exchange building…if not over Ukraine then over Taiwan (its obvious at this point the Moscow Beijing Tehran axis is a thing) the Baltic’s or Sweden. Not necessarily tomorrow but in the near future.


WRT Swift - SPFS - Wikipedia - no doubt Putin has a plan for this.

I would expect the Ukrainians to blow the crap out of every pipeline going through the Ukraine & Belarus. I know I would if I were them.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> WRT Swift - SPFS - Wikipedia - no doubt Putin has a plan for this.
> 
> I would expect the Ukrainians to blow the crap out of every pipeline going through the Ukraine & Belarus. I know I would if I were them.
> 
> View attachment 13011


Biden talked yesterday about how we all have to make sacrifices (no doubt to deflect from the higher food and energy prices that will come). But it’s becoming apparent (and will be crystal clear to Putin) that the west was not really prepared to make any major sacrifice here given the number of exemptions. The biggest sacrifices seem to come from taiwan (which banned semiconductors) and our own and European elites carved out a bunch of exemptions which seem to largely benefit them (unless you believe that trickles down to the rest of us) including:

-the Germans and German banks in particular objected to removing Russia from swift
-energy is largely 
exempt from the sanctions and the exceptions are so broad they even cover wood
-Europe could have frozen the accounts and seized yachts moored in the med of Russian nongovernmental oligarchs but declined
-they could have frozen education visas but universities both here and in Europe objected
-the Italians even exempted luxury shoes and purses from the eu sanctions

but yeah we can light up the Brandenburg gate to show solidarity.

one possible way out is that Ukraine is sending out feelers to accept the finlandization of Ukraine. If that doesn’t happen Kiev falls in a day or two and we see a protracted low or high grade guerila war and the question becomes what the us will do to arm them (which may result in an escalation).


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> It is bold, and so far effective....doesn't mean it's right.  You can put your head in whatever crevice you desire, but the fact that Russia has been able to pull off (so far) a complex military operation is quite suprising to many.  You are too stoopid to do an unbiased analysis of anything, it's why we like you and why you fly the clown flag so vigoruously.  How this ends is still unclear.  But you go right ahead and turn to another page in your play book, identify your prepared passage, and respond.  Let me guess - master, trump, nutter will be sprinkled liberally throughout.
> 
> You should really check your history  on size of militaries, nations, and outcomes.  The least you can do is come to the table educated and coherent.
> 
> Unfortunately for the Ukranians, there will be no russian peacekeeping.  The other stuff you pecked away to describe is jibberish.


If it is unclear how this ends, why are you and your buddies trashing our current administration despite admitting you don't know a thing? You can't even figure out how to get your own daughter recruited and also seem the think that driving 100 miles to Modesto to play 13 year old girls makes good geographical sense.  Yet here you are claiming you're a foreign policy expert over people who actually are.

I do know who isn't one, however, besides you and your trumpy friends of course.  Specifically, when you say everything I said is jibberish, you're right, because it is what your master says.  The same guy, in fact, who thinks the Pentagon ordered our Navy Seals to stage their own amphibious assault on Ukraine and then gave Laura the scoop.  That is your man.  It's also great to hear the two of them mocking the Ukranian president's plea for help as "pathetic".   We really need their friend Marge's Jewish space lasers to change their target from California forests to Northern Ukraine, and pronto.  Maybe Moscow Mitch can tie up more legislation, since we all know that will put Putin in his place.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> If it is unclear how this ends, why are you and your buddies trashing our current administration despite admitting you don't know a thing? You can't even figure out how to get your own daughter recruited and also seem the think that driving 100 miles to Modesto to play 13 year old girls makes good geographical sense.  Yet here you are claiming you're a foreign policy expert over people who actually are.
> 
> I do know who isn't one, however, besides you and your trumpy friends of course.  Specifically, when you say everything I said is jibberish, you're right, because it is what your master says.  The same guy, in fact, who thinks the Pentagon ordered our Navy Seals to stage their own amphibious assault on Ukraine and then gave Laura the scoop.  That is your man.  It's also great to hear the two of them mocking the Ukranian president's plea for help as "pathetic".   We really need their friend Marge's Jewish space lasers to change their target from California forests to Northern Ukraine, and pronto.  Maybe Moscow Mitch can tie up more legislation, since we all know that will put Putin in his place.


wut?  Modesto? at least you gave it a good try.


----------



## whatithink

Grace T. said:


> Biden talked yesterday about how we all have to make sacrifices (no doubt to deflect from the higher food and energy prices that will come). But it’s becoming apparent (and will be crystal clear to Putin) that the west was not really prepared to make any major sacrifice here given the number of exemptions. The biggest sacrifices seem to come from taiwan (which banned semiconductors) and our own and European elites carved out a bunch of exemptions which seem to largely benefit them (unless you believe that trickles down to the rest of us) including:
> 
> -the Germans and German banks in particular objected to removing Russia from swift
> -energy is largely
> exempt from the sanctions and the exceptions are so broad they even cover wood
> -Europe could have frozen the accounts and seized yachts moored in the med of Russian nongovernmental oligarchs but declined
> -they could have frozen education visas but universities both here and in Europe objected
> -the Italians even exempted luxury shoes and purses from the eu sanctions
> 
> but yeah we can light up the Brandenburg gate to show solidarity.
> 
> one possible way out is that Ukraine is sending out feelers to accept the finlandization of Ukraine. If that doesn’t happen Kiev falls in a day or two and we see a protracted low or high grade guerila war and the question becomes what the us will do to arm them (which may result in an escalation).


Putin has been playing the long game, e.g. the creation of the Swift alternative started in 2014. He has developed his allegiance with China and India gets 70% of its imported defense capabilities from Russia along with advanced technology. He has rebuilt his military using the West's money, and played along with the West, through multiple governments and administrations, as they are bound by their terms in office and he is bound by how long he feels like staying in charge.

He's, quite reasonably, reasoned that nobody will go to war over Ukraine, Crimea proved that. Sanctions, as they are, are no more than inconvenient. The West is more interested in trade than anything else. After a period, there will be some discussions (see Minsk II) and everyone gets back to "normal".

The article below lays out some thoughts on it, making the point that cutting Russia off from Swift and banning oil & gas will have a more detrimental impact on Europe than Russia, certainly in the short term. The UK has also shown zero inclination to clean up the City of London and the Crown protectorates that are the primary money launderers for everything, not least the Russian Oligarchs. 

Western powers have realised Russia is largely immune to sanctions | Russia | The Guardian

The Ukrainians best hope is to make the Ukraine into Chechnya II, and that's not a pretty path.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> wut?  Modesto? at least you gave it a good try.


He forgot which thread he is on.

He’s also busy on a norcal thread insulting Central Valley kids.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Attention you all.  The Vaccine Thread is now closed until the Fall or until the Fall of the Cabal, whichever comes first.  Stay safe everyone and I mean that.  Here are some helpful tips from me   Klause just said that he expects a huge cyber plandemic attacks on the horizon so be prepared for no electricity and have food saved up.  Follow Q on TRUTH SOCIAL.  Lot's of TRUTH is coming and will be dripping out.  The MOABs will be coming.  Love you all my fellow Americans.  I hope some of you care for me and others like me in America, as much as you seem to care about the Senator's Sons dealings and the peeps in Kiev.  They ain't the only one's over there making money.  I think it's wise to all sit back and not judge during this "Special Military Operation" that Russia is doing.  Let's get back over here you guys and focus on US, not them.  Yes, gas will go up to $7, but don;t you even try to blame that shit on Ukraine.  Get your ass back here and let's fix what WE GOT, not what's over there to protect.  I am shocked with some of you.  The next [-21] days will shock you all.


----------



## thirteenknots

Open says me !


----------



## thirteenknots

Imagine that .....

Drop your masks and ignore post # 13,410


----------



## Brav520

Hope these people get through this trauma 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/convoy-protest-phantom-honking-1.6363104


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Soccerhelper

Joe does a great job of explaining Bill Gates and, wtf he's giving out health advice???????

https://www.bitchute.com/video/lDIAvIFadMEq/


----------



## Soccerhelper

Brav520 said:


> Hope these people get through this trauma
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/convoy-protest-phantom-honking-1.6363104


Poor people have Hornitist!!!




__





						- YouTube
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com


----------



## Grace T.

Soccerhelper said:


> View attachment 13015


This makes it official. It's done.  See you guys in the funny papers.  And don't think this hasn't been a little slice of heaven [because it hasn't].


----------



## Soccerhelper

Grace T. said:


> This makes it official. It's done.  See you guys in the funny papers.  And don't think this hasn't been a little slice of heaven [because it hasn't].


Normal is back just like that.  Like I said, most of my pals are just like the folks on SNL.  I say, "not so fast."  Some of us got fired, lost income and lost our small businesses.  I think we owe them one big, "I am so sorry I was wrong about all this.  I was blind but now I see.  Please forgive me and here's $10,000,000 for all your troubles."  I will take that right now and never come to the forum ever again.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> This makes it official. It's done.  See you guys in the funny papers.  And don't think this hasn't been a little slice of heaven [because it hasn't].


At least this thread is named after the one thing that actually made a difference besides staying the hell away from other people. I wonder when Santa Clara will actually lift the mask mandate. Like LA, they are ahead of the curve.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> At least this thread is named after the one thing that actually made a difference besides staying the hell away from other people. I wonder when Santa Clara will actually lift the mask mandate. Like LA, they are ahead of the curve.


I think SCC lifts it next week.  Mar 02.

Still required on transit, and for unvaccinated.  No word on how they enforce the latter.


----------



## Soccerhelper

dad4 said:


> I think SCC lifts it next week.  Mar 02.
> 
> Still required on transit, and for unvaccinated.  No word on how they enforce the latter.


California is 100% telling me to wear a mask at all times because I am not vaccinated.  I will obey my Governor's mask mandate because I don't want to mislead my neighbors and those I shop and play with.  If you see me wearing my N95 mask, just know it's because i don;t want to be a liar.  Gov gave me the option of mask or jabs and I choose mask.  This allow me to move freely around like the rest of you and still be transparent with everyone.


----------



## dad4

Study found that both vax and prior omicron infection help against BA.2.  









						Had Omicron? You're unlikely to catch its rising variant
					

Infection with the first widely circulating version of Omicron protects against the emerging BA.2 subvariant — as does vaccination.




					www.nature.com
				




( Prior infection by earlier variants was not measured. )

This makes it less likely that we get another round of hospitalizations and restrictions.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I think SCC lifts it next week.  Mar 02.
> 
> Still required on transit, and for unvaccinated.  No word on how they enforce the latter.


Last week, the two businesses I visited in San Mateo County after they dropped the mask mandate - Target in Redwood City and a small mom and pop shop in Burlingame - required masks. I suspect this will be rather common in the bay area for a while after the mandate is ended.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Last week, the two businesses I visited in San Mateo County after they dropped the mask mandate - Target in Redwood City and a small mom and pop shop in Burlingame - required masks. I suspect this will be rather common in the bay area for a while after the mandate is ended.


Not sure it matters for retail.  I'd like my kids' schools to end their mask rules.   But I don't really care how long the gym or Target make me wear one.


----------



## Soccerhelper

I got them all right you guys.  Check out how much you really know.  Take the Q test....lol!!!









						FIRST ARREST
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Soccerhelper

The Covid Religion is fastly collapsing before our very eyes.  Firstly, The Covidian Branch Leaders will go down as way worse then anything Jim Jones ever concocted.  Dr. Jim was by himself and maybe had a Bishop or Elder that was in on it.  Secondly, this three jab plus booster poison will go down as the biggest lie and scam ever put on mankind.  This kind of Idol worship will have lasting impacts on all of us for years and generations to come. Lastly, the CDC is basically saying that Joe Rogen, Dr. Rand Paul, Dr. Robert, Dr. Holder, Dr. Sam, Dr. Sherry, Dr. Smart and so many and I mean thousands were right.  Some were even silenced or worse killed.  The great Ron DeSantos and so many others were right and dad was wrong and so was Bill and Dr. Fraud.  No more commercials on the radio about Jab.  I did hear about how to donate to save the kids of Kiev because I guess their parents took off to go fight the Russians and left the kids all alone even though that had weeks and months to get out of harms way?  You guys, come on man, don;t you see what the TRUTH is yet?  I am hear to help anyone through these challenging yet interesting times ever on earth.


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Soccerhelper

Best Meme of the day for sure.  You guys crack me up.  Hahahahahahahabababababababbahhhhhaaahhhhhaaaaa.  My advice this time is to make sure you follow the TRUTH!!!


----------



## Soccerhelper

Dr. Ryan Cole -  "I have a post-vaccine nine-year-old on my desk. Dead"
					

Dr. Ryan Cole has been persecuted for speaking out https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/12/08/dr-ryan-cole-removed-from-one-of-idahos-largest-health-care-networks/




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Soccerhelper

I just went to CNN.com and zero articles about Covid and no more fake numbers to scare the shit out of normal people.  That is so wrong to play on one's fears.  WTF?????  It's all about, "Russia, Russia, Russia vs The Ukraines" and how Golden Gate blew a 19 point lead in the fourth quarter.  Children should not be forced to be fully jabbed in order to play soccer for the USA and the Kids of Kiev and all kids around the world with no parents, need to be liberated.  Adults should not have been fired or lose their business so kids have parents with no job or $$$$ and we sure in the hell should not have forced children to wear a mask to go to school all day long.  This is pure evil with lies and spies and this must be a lesson learned or Bill Gates will be right about another plandemic coming in the Fall.  The news is super confusing to many today. I can assure you if you choose to love first and not lead with fear, all will be well with your soul.  Don;t feed your brain with the lies from the spies who cheated.  I feel sad for the adults who fell for this scam and bio weapon.  I pray for peace you guys.  I ask all of you to keep your eyes on Yeshua if you know him and if you don;t, get to know the real Yeshua ASAP!!  Don't watch Tel A Vision so you believe the lies of the Mockingbird.  Looking Glass?  Happy Monday.  Peace you guys, not war.  Make love, not war you guys.  Anger will not bring you happiness and will only bring fits of rage, road rage, neighbor rage, work rage, jealousy, murder, war, destruction and death.  This planet is going on the Peace Train, not the Fear Train.  Choose love and peace, not fear and hate.


----------



## Soccerhelper

From Catturd


----------



## watfly

California mask mandate for schools to end after March 11
					

Gov. Gavin Newsom and California officials said today that the state mask mandate for schools will end after March 11.




					calmatters.org


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> California mask mandate for schools to end after March 11
> 
> 
> Gov. Gavin Newsom and California officials said today that the state mask mandate for schools will end after March 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calmatters.org


Pressure is catching up to Gavin!

Now to cut this Vaccine Mandate!


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Soccerhelper

Breaking News you guys.  "IT" was made in a lab, 100% bio weapon, made in a lab so they could get humans to get the jabs and ruin other peoples life who say, "no way, get that needle away from me now!!!" Either way, were all screwed.  Now they have all my pals looking at Kiev, as if no one just got two years stolen from them and forced Jabs or fired.  I will have to take some time off at the forum and see the board for 7 days.  I pray for all of you my fellow Americans.  We are Americans first I hope.  Btw, my wife's friend told my wife today that her new hero is Zelensky.  She watches this stuff all day, like TV Series and is so amazed at his bravery and love for his country and his hate for Russia.  She hates Russia now as well because of CNN and always did, because deep down she thinks that t and Putin are all in on all this and that they stole elections from HRC in 2016.  Hate is not the way to play but I will sit out and let the haters take over.  You guys are all getting fooled big time.   I feel like I've been watching a movie the last two years.  Trist and turns and some much lies.  The planet that lies will soon come to an end!!!


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccerhelper said:


> California is 100% telling me to wear a mask at all times because I am not vaccinated.  I will obey my Governor's mask mandate because I don't want to mislead my neighbors and those I shop and play with.  If you see me wearing my N95 mask, just know it's because i don;t want to be a liar.  Gov gave me the option of mask or jabs and I choose mask.  This allow me to move freely around like the rest of you and still be transparent with everyone.


Nice, a foreign soil Troll assuming Adam Espola Shiff's filthy
posting duties.


----------



## thirteenknots

Soccerhelper said:


> Breaking News you guys.  "IT" was made in a lab, 100% bio weapon, made in a lab so they could get humans to get the jabs and ruin other peoples life who say, "no way, get that needle away from me now!!!" Either way, were all screwed.  Now they have all my pals looking at Kiev, as if no one just got two years stolen from them and forced Jabs or fired.  I will have to take some time off at the forum and see the board for 7 days.  I pray for all of you my fellow Americans.  We are Americans first I hope.  Btw, my wife's friend told my wife today that her new hero is Zelensky.  She watches this stuff all day, like TV Series and is so amazed at his bravery and love for his country and his hate for Russia.  She hates Russia now as well because of CNN and always did, because deep down she thinks that t and Putin are all in on all this and that they stole elections from HRC in 2016.  Hate is not the way to play but I will sit out and let the haters take over.  You guys are all getting fooled big time.   I feel like I've been watching a movie the last two years.  Trist and turns and some much lies.  The planet that lies will soon come to an end!!!



Go sit down and study your basic English punctuations/wording.
Your foreign origin stands out like a sore Biden.


----------



## thirteenknots

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Pressure is catching up to Gavin!
> 
> Now to cut this Vaccine Mandate!


Wait til he is held accountable for ALL of the pilfered money 
from the State coffers. Not even the stolen money from the 
American Taxpayers thru Aunt Nancy's House of Representatives
will begin to put a dent in the unsustainable California Pension
obligations.

Ol Greasy is in for some real pain.


----------



## Soccerhelper

thirteenknots said:


> Go sit down and study your basic English punctuations/wording.
> Your foreign origin stands out like a sore Biden.


I just sat down from being at the beach all day.  How's Nocal Outlaw?  Look's like I wont have to wear a mask anymore after 3/11 and will try my luck at making a buck again.  Stay safe.  Make love bro, not war and hate.


----------



## whatithink

I see there are some new studies out which sow further doubt on the whole lab leak theory. Its still not ruled out, but seems much less likely.

Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19’s origin in a Wuhan animal market? | Science | AAAS


----------



## Soccerhelper

whatithink said:


> I see there are some new studies out which sow further doubt on the whole lab leak theory. Its still not ruled out, but seems much less likely.
> 
> Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19’s origin in a Wuhan animal market? | Science | AAAS


What is your honest guess?  I was told by a very smart Doctor that 100% it came from a lab.  CDC knows for sure but we still can't get them to share the real numbers on the adverse effects from the jabs.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

watfly said:


> California mask mandate for schools to end after March 11
> 
> 
> Gov. Gavin Newsom and California officials said today that the state mask mandate for schools will end after March 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calmatters.org


San Diego Unified, the second largest district in the state, will continue enforcing its indoor mask mandate, according to school board president Richard Barrera.

“San Diego County is still in the high-risk tier, even under the CDC’s new system,” Barrera said. “When we move into the moderate-risk tier, then we’ll reassess.”

So the kids in SDUSD go from taking orders from King Newsom to King Barrera and his school board cronies. Bought and paid for by the TEACHERS union. This union has got to go. They are bad for children and teachers should stop paying dues to this political organization. Those who fund it are responsible for its corruption.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hey lets hurry up and vaxx the kids RIGHT?


_New York state officials found the effectiveness of Pfizer's vaccine against Covid infection plummeted from 68% to 12% for children aged 5 to 11 during the omicron surge._



			Pfizer Covid vaccine was just 12% effective against omicron in kids 5 to 11, study finds


----------



## kickingandscreaming

whatithink said:


> I see there are some new studies out which sow further doubt on the whole lab leak theory. Its still not ruled out, but seems much less likely.
> 
> Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19’s origin in a Wuhan animal market? | Science | AAAS


None of the three are peer-reviewed, one is from China and 

"Many of the researchers behind the new studies were also participants in a review published last summer that said the pandemic almost certainly originated with an animal, probably at a wildlife market."

Maybe you should change your name to idontthink.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> San Diego Unified, the second largest district in the state, will continue enforcing its indoor mask mandate, according to school board president Richard Barrera.
> 
> “San Diego County is still in the high-risk tier, even under the CDC’s new system,” Barrera said. “When we move into the moderate-risk tier, then we’ll reassess.”
> 
> So the kids in SDUSD go from taking orders from King Newsom to King Barrera and his school board cronies. Bought and paid for by the TEACHERS union. This union has got to go. They are bad for children and teachers should stop paying dues to this political organization. Those who fund it are responsible for its corruption.


Most of my pals all teach to earn a buck.  If you put in 30+ years, you get a real nice retirement.  It was a good gig back in the day when teachers taught students how to think on their own and critically think outside da box.  It's become a cult in some ways today.  One of my friends can;t share anything about what he truly believes and what he would like to teach his students.  His boss roams the hall ways and listens for anyone teacher going against the play book.  He say's he would get punished if he dare try to give a moo or two.  Nope, you do as told or else.  He has a few more years left and then retire in the sunset.  These Unions are ruthless and actually do the what their told from their higher ups.  King Barrera should at least consult with the parents.  So sad for the kids.


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> I see there are some new studies out which sow further doubt on the whole lab leak theory. Its still not ruled out, but seems much less likely.
> 
> Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19’s origin in a Wuhan animal market? | Science | AAAS


If you read the fine print, the lead author is PRC resident and PRC funded.  The papers are not peer reviewed.  And their argument assumes two simultaneous animal to human jumps in the same market, but no jumps anywhere else in all of China.

Count me as unconvinced.


----------



## whatithink

kickingandscreaming said:


> None of the three are peer-reviewed, one is from China and
> 
> "Many of the researchers behind the new studies were also participants in a review published last summer that said the pandemic almost certainly originated with an animal, probably at a wildlife market."
> 
> Maybe you should change your name to idontthink.


Yes, its not peer reviewed, as stated in para 3. The China one is questioned also, and there are other critiques of the conclusions in the article, not least that it needs to be validated via the peer review process.

My moniker is fine, but feel free to adopt the one you suggested. I take it you are in the last para category of peeps. Have fun with that.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> Yes, its not peer reviewed, as stated in para 3. The China one is questioned also, and there are other critiques of the conclusions in the article, not least that it needs to be validated via the peer review process.
> 
> My moniker is fine, but feel free to adopt the one you suggested. I take it you are in the last para category of peeps. Have fun with that.


Peer review is only important when you wish to dispute the findings.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Peer review is only important when you wish to dispute the findings.


Coocoo


----------



## whatithink

Hüsker Dü said:


> Peer review is only important when you wish to dispute the findings.


Now that's just silly, as you well know.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

whatithink said:


> Now that's just silly, as you well know.


All the stuff on the pre-print servers is under review. Some submissions will past muster, other's won't.  Those that do pass muster it will be like "fix this, this and this".  That's how it is.

thanks for linking to the Pekar et al preprint. I had not seen it.  It's largely a UCSD/Scripps and UCLA piece of work.  And, IMO, a submission crackling with some interesting new phylogenetic computational approaches.  Long and short of it is that with their analytical developments they can work backwards in genetic time and assess the probabilities of different types of initiating "rooting" events for the pandemic initiating in Wuhan.  And the only one that really works given the Cov2 genomes that they feed into their analysis is two separate jumps into humans from animal resevoirs occurring in a short space of time.   I can see some things they will likely be asked about on review but the core of it feels pretty solid. 

How does it feed into the lab leak hypothesis?  The answer is, of course,given the physical proximity of the Whuhan labs, any way you want it to. As I've said previously it's basically a historical/political question, not a scientific one. Two separate jumps = viruses brought into a market which start  recombining into a nasty little cesspool that jumps two times?  Versus, something brought out of a lab, accidentily or maybe not, mingling with an intermediate host and that's what leads to the conditions for two jumps?  It's worth pointing out because this is as much insight as we msy get on the matter.  Kind of like three guys meet up in a over priced bar to talk about campaign data and a Ukrainian "peace plan".  What do we call it?  Prove it versus disprove the negative.

Anyway, thing that got me off on this was that, in this thread, omicron was proposed as a jump from human to mice and back to human (two jumps),  Nobody says boo.  And then you post these links that basically say two jumps (and easier ones really and get shit canned for not thinking for yourself?  Somebody is not thinking (or understanding WTF they are talking about) but it's not you.


----------



## Soccerhelper

whatithink said:


> Yes, its not peer reviewed, as stated in para 3. The China one is questioned also, and there are other critiques of the conclusions in the article, not least that it needs to be validated via the peer review process.
> 
> My moniker is fine, but feel free to adopt the one you suggested. I take it you are in the last para category of peeps. Have fun with that.


Forcing people to take bat poison from a lab is insane and this is not fun for most of us who lost the last two years of their life.  My best pal has blood clots and people I know have died from the jab, not Corona.  Let that sink into your heart.  You have supported this war crime and that's on you 100% now.  People will have lasting side effects for the rest of their life and all you can say is, "have fun."  Making kids get jabbed and wear a mask is pure evil.  EVIL EVIL EVIL.  Do you comprehend evil?


----------



## Soccerhelper

Math cheaters are the worse.  Tricking people with fake numbers is evil and will be dealt with soon.  No way anyone get's out of this BS.  My pal is acting all nice to me now and thinks everything will go back to normal.......lol!!!  Make sure to find a booster location to stay fully controlled.....lol!!


----------



## Soccerhelper

I think Joe and Hunter should give us the "Slur of the Union" Speech tonight.  Espola and Huskers team will gives their vision for America tonight.


----------



## Soccerhelper

The Biden's will say tonight that we are psychologically unable to feel happy about how much they have made our country better the last year.  I feel so loved by my neighbors.  Were closer then ever and have nothing to divide us.  It's pure bliss of love and compassion.  What a place to be and what a time to be alive.  Joe did say that this winter will be a winter of death and destruction.  Pluto Rising is here too.  20 more days until we Spring ourselves to The Great Awakening.


----------



## GoldenGate

It looks like it is back to the drawing board for conspiracy theorists.  It turns out Dr. Fauci didn't fund a secret extermination plan to create a deadly (except when you're whining about wearing a mask and then it's a hoax) virus in a Chinese laboratory.









						New Research Points to Wuhan Market as Pandemic Origin
					

Two new studies say the virus was present in animals at the Huanan seafood market in 2019.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## GoldenGate

whatithink said:


> Yes, its not peer reviewed, as stated in para 3. The China one is questioned also, and there are other critiques of the conclusions in the article, not least that it needs to be validated via the peer review process.
> 
> My moniker is fine, but feel free to adopt the one you suggested. I take it you are in the last para category of peeps. Have fun with that.


I have a question.  If you are going to disregard the only two actual studies that have looked into this, why are you clinging so hard to a conspiracy theory that was said on 4Chan by some anonymous whackadoo?  Presumably that wasn't peer studied either.  Or do you only care if something has the Qanon seal of approval?

Also, why do you even care? How do you reconcile your belief that Covid is essentially a hoax so therefore no one should wear masks or get vaccinated while, at the same time, claiming Dr. Fauci funded a Chinese lab to create a deadly virus as part of a secret worldwide extermination plan?  Which is it?  Is Covid deadly or not?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Coocoo


No, cuckoo is completely disregarding the two studies that have actually looked into the issue in favor of what some anonymous conspiracy theorist claimed on the dark web.  Feel free to find any excuse to cling to your conspiracy theory for as long as you can.  I can't wait to see what excuse you have to disregard the studies after they've been peer reviewed.  Let me give you some options: (1) it's fake news; (2) Dr. Fauci secretly funded the peer review study to support the two studies that he also secretly funded to cover up that he also secretly funded creation of the deadly virus in a Wuhan lab; (3) just change the subject to "Biden is senile."


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> All the stuff on the pre-print servers is under review. Some submissions will past muster, other's won't.  Those that do pass muster it will be like "fix this, this and this".  That's how it is.
> 
> thanks for linking to the Pekar et al preprint. I had not seen it.  It's largely a UCSD/Scripps and UCLA piece of work.  And, IMO, a submission crackling with some interesting new phylogenetic computational approaches.  Long and short of it is that with their analytical developments they can work backwards in genetic time and assess the probabilities of different types of initiating "rooting" events for the pandemic initiating in Wuhan.  And the only one that really works given the Cov2 genomes that they feed into their analysis is two separate jumps into humans from animal resevoirs occurring in a short space of time.   I can see some things they will likely be asked about on review but the core of it feels pretty solid.
> 
> How does it feed into the lab leak hypothesis?  The answer is, of course,given the physical proximity of the Whuhan labs, any way you want it to. As I've said previously it's basically a historical/political question, not a scientific one. Two separate jumps = viruses brought into a market which start  recombining into a nasty little cesspool that jumps two times?  Versus, something brought out of a lab, accidentily or maybe not, mingling with an intermediate host and that's what leads to the conditions for two jumps?  It's worth pointing out because this is as much insight as we msy get on the matter.  Kind of like three guys meet up in a over priced bar to talk about campaign data and a Ukrainian "peace plan".  What do we call it?  Prove it versus disprove the negative.
> 
> Anyway, thing that got me off on this was that, in this thread, omicron was proposed as a jump from human to mice and back to human (two jumps),  Nobody says boo.  And then you post these links that basically say two jumps (and easier ones really and get shit canned for not thinking for yourself?  Somebody is not thinking (or understanding WTF they are talking about) but it's not you.


I don’t think many are arguing that the market was not a viral cesspool.  It’s clear the market was a pathway.  I think the objection is to the claim that market transmission disproves lab leak.  

I can see how the statistical genetics argument can give you a timeline for when the virus got to the market.  I don’t see how a statistical genetics argument tells you where it came from.  Inside a bat, or inside a bat researcher who is there to buy dinner?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I don’t think many are arguing that the market was not a viral cesspool.  It’s clear the market was a pathway.  I think the objection is to the claim that market transmission disproves lab leak.
> 
> I can see how the statistical genetics argument can give you a timeline for when the virus got to the market.  I don’t see how a statistical genetics argument tells you where it came from.  Inside a bat, or inside a bat researcher who is there to buy dinner?


Yes, that's the point I was trying to make in saying the lab leak is fundamentally a historical/political question in the sense that science can never disprove it didn't happen that way.  Thus, the set of paper that were first referenced in the post linking to the Science highlight are attempting to track back to the common ancestor of the Cov2 lineages that are out there.  That data does not address where that common ancestor came from other than to say that most likely rooting event to explain CoV2 genetic lineages was two near contemporaneous jumps in Wuhan.


----------



## whatithink

GoldenGate said:


> I have a question.  If you are going to disregard the only two actual studies that have looked into this, why are you clinging so hard to a conspiracy theory that was said on 4Chan by some anonymous whackadoo?  Presumably that wasn't peer studied either.  Or do you only care if something has the Qanon seal of approval?
> 
> Also, why do you even care? How do you reconcile your belief that Covid is essentially a hoax so therefore no one should wear masks or get vaccinated while, at the same time, claiming Dr. Fauci funded a Chinese lab to create a deadly virus as part of a secret worldwide extermination plan?  Which is it?  Is Covid deadly or not?


I didn't disregard them, I brought them up - see below.

Acknowledging that its not yet peer reviewed or that there are critiques in the piece I posted are just facts, based on the actual text of the actual article I posted.

As for the rest of your diatribe, you've obviously confused me with someone else.



whatithink said:


> I see there are some new studies out which sow further doubt on the whole lab leak theory. Its still not ruled out, but seems much less likely.
> 
> Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19’s origin in a Wuhan animal market? | Science | AAAS


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

And, since its open on my destop, while the Pekar et al paper is pretty technical the discussion makes a general point that is worth highlighting and one of the things I've been trying to say. All these eruptive coronavirus epidemics/pandemics involved multiple jumps between humans and animal resevoirs.  SARS, MERS, now CoV2, and possibly omicron.  And with the evolutionary success of Cov2 these outbreaks will almost certainly be happing at an even greater frequency.  In other words, we (or, more accurately, our kids) are going to need to learn to deal with this going forward.  

Here is the blurb from their discussion.

"Viruses that can infect humans and naturally circulate in animals, such as rabies, Ebola, Nipah, Lassa, and highly pathogenic avian influenza viruses, are rare, but of high consequence (50-53). However, once a virus is capable of human infection and transmission, the remaining barriers to spillover are pervasiveness of the virus among animal hosts and extended host human contact. Thereafter, a single zoonotic transmission event portends additional jumps because all previous conditions leading up to a successful zoonotic jump have necessarily been met. For example, the reverse zoonosis of SARS CoV2 from humans to minks on Dutch fur farms was followed by repeated reintroduction of SARS CoV2 from minks to humans."


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> Now that's just silly, as you well know.


Who was worried about Robert Malone’s supposed findings?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> I have a question.  If you are going to disregard the only two actual studies that have looked into this, why are you clinging so hard to a conspiracy theory that was said on 4Chan by some anonymous whackadoo?  Presumably that wasn't peer studied either.  Or do you only care if something has the Qanon seal of approval?
> 
> Also, why do you even care? How do you reconcile your belief that Covid is essentially a hoax so therefore no one should wear masks or get vaccinated while, at the same time, claiming Dr. Fauci funded a Chinese lab to create a deadly virus as part of a secret worldwide extermination plan?  Which is it?  Is Covid deadly or not?


Looks like you understand. Peer review is only important when you wish to dispute the findings.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Hüsker Dü said:


> Looks like you understand. Peer review is only important when you wish to dispute the findings.


Have the both of you joined Truth Social yet?  q is there and so is t.


----------



## whatithink

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who was worried about Robert Malone’s supposed findings?


OK I think I get your point, i.e. "where's the peer review if someone doesn't agree" vs "look what this guy said, it must be true, if someone does agree".


----------



## Soccerhelper

Breaking News Just in.  The USSS ((secret service)) say's they are unable to locate years of records all of Joe and Hunters communications back when pay to play was the game to play.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Happy Women's Month to only those women who got the jab.  All the other women got fired or blocked entry to a free education because they stood up to BS!!!  I know a few women who told my wife they wish they never got the jab or allowed their children to take this poison.  They feel horrible and scammed.  One of them the hubby has blood clots.  My other friends sister died from Covid and three jabs later.  This is true and no need to fact check me fellas.  I speak from my heart.  These monsters are pure evil and will go down lying to save face.  









						President Biden on Women’s History Month 2022
					

Standing on the shoulders of the heroines who came before them, today’s women and girls continue to carry forward the mission of ensuring our daughters have the same opportunities as our sons. The Biden-Harris Administration has made gender equality…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Soccerhelper said:


> Happy Women's Month to only those women who got the jab.  All the other women got fired or blocked entry to a free education because they stood up to BS!!!  I know a few women who told my wife they wish they never got the jab or allowed their children to take this poison.  They feel horrible and scammed.  One of them the hubby has blood clots.  My other friends sister died from Covid and three jabs later.  This is true and no need to fact check me fellas.  I speak from my heart.  These monsters are pure evil and will go down lying to save face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Biden on Women’s History Month 2022
> 
> 
> Standing on the shoulders of the heroines who came before them, today’s women and girls continue to carry forward the mission of ensuring our daughters have the same opportunities as our sons. The Biden-Harris Administration has made gender equality…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


The children who got vaccinated will surely die, or at least grow bat wings. I can't believe so many people were duped into taking the bat poison over a complete hoax.  Only those who have not taken our bipolar meds know the truth.


----------



## Soccerhelper

GoldenGate said:


> The children who got vaccinated will surely die, or at least grow bat wings. I can't believe so many people were duped into taking the bat poison over a complete hoax.  Only those who have not taken our bipolar meds know the truth.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Joe last night:  "Let's stop seeing each other as enemies"  

Joe the day before:  "The unvaccinated are responsible for the Pandemic."

Joe last night:  "I've ordered more pills than anyone in the world has"

JBLN:  Ukraine is the light and Russia is the darkness


----------



## Soccerhelper

I need to go chill out and get my heart and soul safe.  So check this.  Old pal who voted for, Gary, Walter, Bill, Al, John, Barak and HRC is driving me nuts.  He told me that unless I stand with Ukraine and denounce Putin verbaly, he will not discuss anything else with me regarding politics anymore. He will not look at me in the eye and discuss the last two years.  Total coward and wants to watch war in Ukraine all day on Tel A Vision.  "The virus is over, end of story," he tells me.  "Focus on Ukraine and have a heart brother" he tells me. Imagine that, my old debate pal making statements like that. He also told people like me in 2016 that if we don;t stand with HRC, we stand with the evil t, regardless if we voted or not. The lines are being drawn again.  This guy is a joke and I probably never talk to him again unless he wakes up.  He told me to vote for HRC, kneel for one race, support rioters for one cause, defund the police, ask for forgiveness, support two Impeachments, support election fraud, support spying on others, take three jabs + boosters and wear a mask or get fired and now he says, "Stand with Ukraine and bow or I won't deabte you."  We only argue most of the time so it was probably not beneficial for either of us.  Good bye old pal.  Dude is so sick and I mean with the flu.  He has been sick for over two weeks.


----------



## thirteenknots




----------



## Multi Sport

Katie Meyer..Stanford keeper..found dead at 22.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Multi Sport said:


> Katie Meyer..Stanford keeper..found dead at 22.


Just watched vid of her making those big saves in the PK shootout against UNC.  22 years old.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

And so it begins.  Doesn't look like this jump will be sustained fortunately.  



			https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.22.481551v1.full.pdf


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just watched vid of her making those big saves in the PK shootout against UNC.  22 years old.


Why is that posted in this thread?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> And so it begins.  Doesn't look like this jump will be sustained fortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.22.481551v1.full.pdf


How would a deer be in close proximity for a prolonged amount of time in order to transmit Covid to a human?  Zoo maybe?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How would a deer be in close proximity for a prolonged amount of time in order to transmit Covid to a human?  Zoo maybe?


If it’s those damn deer in Nara!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How would a deer be in close proximity for a prolonged amount of time in order to transmit Covid to a human?  Zoo maybe?


Well, it gets cold up in Canada...one thing leads to another.

You sound a bit like a dazzling urbanite.  Lots of places where deer are pretty thick, and they like edge habitats. And, for emergents that have the right set of genetic changes, just takes one jump. Which they document happened in this case.  It just didn't take off.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> If it’s those damn deer in Nara!


National Archives and Record Administration?  And I thought stampeding cattle through the Vatican was bad.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why is that posted in this thread?


I was responding.  Its popping up in other threads as well.  Given the overall structure of the site perhaps that is not the worst thing in the world.  It will be on people's minds.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> National Archives and Record Administration?  And I thought stampeding cattle through the Vatican was bad.


Nara Japan, the deer are thick there by the temple.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I was responding.  Its popping up in other threads as well.  Given the overall structure of the site perhaps that is not the worst thing in the world.  It will be on people's minds.


I thought maybe her passing was Covid or vaccine reaction related was the reason. Any way it came to occur it is a horrible shame.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> Nara Japan, the deer are thick there by the temple.


I got a flash mental picture. The temple looks magnificent.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, it gets cold up in Canada...one thing leads to another.
> 
> You sound a bit like a dazzling urbanite.  Lots of places where deer are pretty thick, and they like edge habitats. And, for emergents that have the right set of genetic changes, just takes one jump. Which they document happened in this case.  It just didn't take off.


I grew up hunting in the country side of the South East.  White Tail are pretty thick in those woods. 

I’ve never seen a deer hang out within 6 feet of a human being for more than three seconds unless it was dead or domesticated but that’s only my experience.


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why is that posted in this thread?


Ummm... a young, elite athlete, suddenly  dies. She was vaccinated.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How would a deer be in close proximity for a prolonged amount of time in order to transmit Covid to a human?  Zoo maybe?


Deer are notorious anti-maskers.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I grew up hunting in the country side of the South East.  White Tail are pretty thick in those woods.
> 
> I’ve never seen a deer hang out within 6 feet of a human being for more than three seconds unless it was dead or domesticated but that’s only my experience.


Ah, then you'll know what opening day of deer season can be like.  Growing up they'd get into our garden right in broad daylight, eat the corn, paw up the carrots.  My mom would send me out with my BB gun to pop them in the butt.  

And you are right.  For all these types of wildlife resevoir to human jumps it takes close contact.  So for north american deer its going to be hunting, road kill, sick animals stuff like that.  Since the virus quickly adapts to its animal host, its infectivity in humans will generally, and fortunately, be low.  Every so often the right set of circumstances arise for a jump. Most of those jumps will fail; there is no further human to human transmission.  That is apparently what happened in the case that was just reported.  But we have a new active resevoir on this continent now, where we didn't have one before.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Multi Sport said:


> Ummm... a young, elite athlete, suddenly  dies. She was vaccinated.


I don't believe they released an official cause yet but nothing I've heard indicates it was vaccine related. I assume those details will come out soon.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> Deer are notorious anti-maskers.


I still say make it legal to bait with corn, then let dudes go out in their trucks at night, kick back a six pack or two, Q beam away and vaxx the deer with a dart gun.  Open season year round. Vaccine hesitancy in rural America would disappear overnight.  Or they'd accidentally cross vaccinate one another.  Either way. Actually, once the virus adapts to deer it will have antigenically drifted pretty far from human vaccines.  Which is, of course, the problem with the rare jumps back to humans.


----------



## Soccerhelper

An 18-year-old woman in Nevada who suffered seizures after receiving the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine has received three brain surgeries related to blood clots, a spokesperson for her family said.
Emma Burkey began feeling sick about a week after receiving the one-dose vaccine early this month, spokesman Bret Johnson said. She was one of six women in the U.S. and the only reported resident in Clark County, which includes Las Vegas, who experienced a serious clotting side effect. One person died.

I think we all can agree that this is starting to look a lot like murder 1 Bio weapon.  Stop supporting this shit!!!


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## Kicker 2.0

Multi Sport said:


> Ummm... a young, elite athlete, suddenly  dies. She was vaccinated.


Zero to do with it.  This is a heartbreaking and tragic situation especially for those left behind.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Zero to do with it.  This is a heartbreaking and tragic situation especially for those left behind.


From the info on the gk forum it looks like it was a suicide


----------



## Multi Sport

Grace T. said:


> From the info on the gk forum it looks like it was a suicide


That's horrible. Suicide has touched my family..had a cousin in Holland who ended his life.


----------



## Multi Sport

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Zero to do with it.  This is a heartbreaking and tragic situation especially for those left behind.


Why zero to do with it? It's horrible and tragic but the fact that she was vaccinated may have everything to do with it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I believe I have recovered from omicron. I didn't test since I don't go into the office. It started with a headache - not bad but I did take an Advil two times - and a fair amount of sneezing on Friday and Saturday. I had a minor sore throat. I had a lot of congestion on Saturday and Sunday but the headache went away. Congestion improved Monday. My throat and voice were pretty raw Tuesday morning but improved during the day. Congestion was much less. Today, I felt pretty normal with just a little congestion. I exercised normally throughout but was tired took a nap during the day a few times. No fever that I noticed. It felt like a regular cold - annoying but day-to-day activities were manageable. Maybe I won't need the next booster .


----------



## Soccerhelper

Multi Sport said:


> Why zero to do with it? It's horrible and tragic but the fact that she was vaccinated may have everything to do with it.


The pressure to play soccer in this country after a girl is 13 is tragic and cruel.  Today, no Jab, no play and no FREE handout education unless you get jabbed and obey coach in all his politics!!!  My kid was told in 7th grade that Big U's needed her to email the coaches quickly to get her deal.  Loser Elitist were on here making fun of me for not forcing my kid to send email sp she can decide over the phone to play for a mean coach or worse.  I know a mom of a player right now who said depression is at an all-time high in college.  Why?


----------



## Soccerhelper

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe I have recovered from omicron. I didn't test since I don't go into the office. It started with a headache - not bad but I did take an Advil two times - and a fair amount of sneezing on Friday and Saturday. I had a minor sore throat. I had a lot of congestion on Saturday and Sunday but the headache went away. Congestion improved Monday. My throat and voice were pretty raw Tuesday morning but improved during the day. Congestion was much less. Today, I felt pretty normal with just a little congestion. I exercised normally throughout but was tired took a nap during the day a few times. No fever that I noticed. It felt like a regular cold - annoying but day-to-day activities were manageable. Maybe I won't need the next booster .


Welcome back and please do not take any more shots.  I do joke around but not about how I love.  I really do love you.  Crush is coming back by the way


----------



## Soccerhelper

Listen to what they are saying and please try not to attack the messenger, like most of you do to me.  Attacking me as someone on meds is classic debate loser.  I came here to warn you folks about a few things, one was not to take this bio weapon.  I got attacked by Husker and Espola.  Now that we know the TRUTH, they dont talk about it anymore.  Now these same fools want us to go to war.  









						A Summary of Data From Great Britain Reveals That 9 Out of 10...
					

Taken from Telegram  ...People Dying of COVID Are Vaccinated  Dr. Malone: [The notion that the 'vaccines' protect against severe disease and death] is falling."  @VigilantFox | Rumble




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Soccerhelper

Here's the TRUTH> The vaccine you think you took is not really a vaccine in the traditional way a vaccine was used in the past.  Today's juice was made for evil reasons and the youth are now dying and having huge adverse effects.  Suicide is through the roof.  Cancer is up 300%.  Heart attacks is up 300%.  Blood clots are everywhere now.  It;s like normal now and the commercials I hear on the radio is all about the adverse effects.  Like Joe said, he is pushing more pills then any other President combined.  My best pals wife is on pace to make a $1,000,000 this year.  Before Covid, she made about $250,000.  2021 she made almost $500,000.  Kids are dying and she is a millionaire.  Life insurance claims up 40% for people under 45.  I tried to warn you guys and all I get is attacked verbally, threaten, can;t work unless jab, have to wear a mask because I said no. Now all you Pro-Vax people are in love with the people of Ukraine and not me and those like me in America.  Joe blamed me.  Think about what you injected in your arm that went to your brain and in your blooooooooood and how your acting today.  How much fear is too much fear?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccerhelper said:


> Welcome back and please do not take any more shots.  I do joke around but not about how I love.  I really do love you.  Crush is coming back by the way


Thanks, @crush


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe I have recovered from omicron. I didn't test since I don't go into the office. It started with a headache - not bad but I did take an Advil two times - and a fair amount of sneezing on Friday and Saturday. I had a minor sore throat. I had a lot of congestion on Saturday and Sunday but the headache went away. Congestion improved Monday. My throat and voice were pretty raw Tuesday morning but improved during the day. Congestion was much less. Today, I felt pretty normal with just a little congestion. I exercised normally throughout but was tired took a nap during the day a few times. No fever that I noticed. It felt like a regular cold - annoying but day-to-day activities were manageable. Maybe I won't need the next booster .


Similar symptoms for me, but I can't shake the mild congestion and occasional headache.  Day 17 since I tested positive.


----------



## Soccerhelper

watfly said:


> Similar symptoms for me, but I can't shake the mild congestion and occasional headache.  Day 17 since I tested positive.


Thanks for being honest.  Here's the deal that everyone who took the jabs + boosters need to be aware of.  This is the new normal.  The fake vaccine actually attacks your immune system and that's why people are getting sick longer.  What took 3 days to recover is now taking the vax 10-30 days.  No joke.  It lingers in the blood cell.  These fuckers knew exactly what they were doing.  They attacked our business sector, divided our country big time and then tricked many good people to follow the Doctors orders and that's what so sad.  The trust of the American people will need to re-trust again after all the news comes out.  Bro, look at the news.  What are they hiding now and what are they promoting?  Stop eating meat right now.  No booze. Drink lot's of water and go all natural.  Trust me 100%.  Praying for you 100%.


----------



## Soccerhelper

*NFL, players' union agree to suspend COVID-19 protocols, citing decreasing spread*

Thursday's change will still affect coaches and other staff members who are attending this week's scouting combine in Indianapolis or who work year-round in local markets. Those *employees will no longer face surveillance* testing, regardless of vaccination status, or mask requirements.

*Teams can choose to impose their own mask policies* *if desired*, and the memo does leave open the possibility of reverting to a level of protocols if circumstances warrant.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Hey folks remember when they said we just need two weeks to flatten the curve?  Two years later, no more curve to talk about and now I must stand with Ukraine or I am for Putin and Russia.  These people are very dangerous.  I got a big threat today you guys.  The real me and all my avatars are leaving.  I shared my heart with so many of you.  I begged you not to take it but so many did.  I felt it was my duty to give you all a heads up and i did. Four YEARS of my life trying to yell at what was about to happen.  My life coach says 100% leave for the good everyone and my wife.  It took a toll on me.  I will think of you guys often and wish you and all your kids true safety.  I can;t even come on here and look because I get hooked.  I hope when all the dust settles, you will take me with a grain of salt and heart that is open to talk about anything and not afraid to speak my mind.  Good bye forever you guys.  No more crush Kicking and screaming.  I got the big big threat today bro by some evil men.  These clowns are washed up but hate me and it's best I leave.  I love you man and try cutting out the meat and whatever you do, don;t eat that stuff Bill Gates is producing and no more boosters.  To those wishing me and my family harm:  I PROMISE TO LEAVE SIR.  I TAKE YOUR THREAT SERIOUS AND WILL NOW STFU ON THE FORUM.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Soccerhelper said:


> Hey folks remember when they said we just need two weeks to flatten the curve?  Two years later, no more curve to talk about and now I must stand with Ukraine or I am for Putin and Russia.  These people are very dangerous.  I got a big threat today you guys.  The real me and all my avatars are leaving.  I shared my heart with so many of you.  I begged you not to take it but so many did.  I felt it was my duty to give you all a heads up and i did. Four YEARS of my life trying to yell at what was about to happen.  My life coach says 100% leave for the good everyone and my wife.  It took a toll on me.  I will think of you guys often and wish you and all your kids true safety.  I can;t even come on here and look because I get hooked.  I hope when all the dust settles, you will take me with a grain of salt and heart that is open to talk about anything and not afraid to speak my mind.  Good bye forever you guys.  No more crush Kicking and screaming.  I got the big big threat today bro by some evil men.  These clowns are washed up but hate me and it's best I leave.  I love you man and try cutting out the meat and whatever you do, don;t eat that stuff Bill Gates is producing and no more boosters.  To those wishing me and my family harm:  I PROMISE TO LEAVE SIR.  I TAKE YOUR THREAT SERIOUS AND WILL NOW STFU ON THE FORUM.


YAWN….boy who cried wolf.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccerhelper said:


> Hey folks remember when they said we just need two weeks to flatten the curve?  Two years later, no more curve to talk about and now I must stand with Ukraine or I am for Putin and Russia.  These people are very dangerous.  I got a big threat today you guys.  The real me and all my avatars are leaving.  I shared my heart with so many of you.  I begged you not to take it but so many did.  I felt it was my duty to give you all a heads up and i did. Four YEARS of my life trying to yell at what was about to happen.  My life coach says 100% leave for the good everyone and my wife.  It took a toll on me.  I will think of you guys often and wish you and all your kids true safety.  I can;t even come on here and look because I get hooked.  I hope when all the dust settles, you will take me with a grain of salt and heart that is open to talk about anything and not afraid to speak my mind.  Good bye forever you guys.  No more crush Kicking and screaming.  I got the big big threat today bro by some evil men.  These clowns are washed up but hate me and it's best I leave.  I love you man and try cutting out the meat and whatever you do, don;t eat that stuff Bill Gates is producing and no more boosters.  To those wishing me and my family harm:  I PROMISE TO LEAVE SIR.  I TAKE YOUR THREAT SERIOUS AND WILL NOW STFU ON THE FORUM.


Dude, you are giving too many f*cks about people that don't deserve any of your f*cks.


----------



## Multi Sport

Gov. Gavin Newsom is easing mask restrictions and declaring that the pandemic is moving into a less critical phase. Yet an aggressive slate of COVID-19-related bills — to mandate vaccines for children and workers, to allow 12 to 17 year-olds to get the vaccine without parental consent and more — remain in play under the Capitol dome.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Multi Sport said:


> Gov. Gavin Newsom is easing mask restrictions and declaring that the pandemic is moving into a less critical phase. Yet an aggressive slate of COVID-19-related bills — to mandate vaccines for children and workers, to allow 12 to 17 year-olds to get the vaccine without parental consent and more — remain in play under the Capitol dome.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Multi Sport said:


> Gov. Gavin Newsom is easing mask restrictions and declaring that the pandemic is moving into a less critical phase. Yet an aggressive slate of COVID-19-related bills — to mandate vaccines for children and workers, to allow 12 to 17 year-olds to get the vaccine without parental consent and more — remain in play under the Capitol dome.


Next quarter at Foothill College (Santa Clara County) they are requiring the booster to attend on-campus classes. Currently, you need to be vaccinated up to but not including the booster.


----------



## what-happened

kickingandscreaming said:


> Next quarter at Foothill College (Santa Clara County) they are requiring the booster to attend on-campus classes. Currently, you need to be vaccinated up to but not including the booster.


so sciency.  It's amazing how smart these people are.


----------



## watfly

This isn't because of masks, vaccines and school closures.  Covid policy just exposed what has been happening in our public schools for years, children are no longer the priority in our public schools.









						Enrollment dropped faster than expected at San Diego Unified
					

At about 95,000 students, the district has 4,000 fewer students this year than it projected




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> This isn't because of masks, vaccines and school closures.  Covid policy just exposed what has been happening in our public schools for years, children are no longer the priority in our public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enrollment dropped faster than expected at San Diego Unified
> 
> 
> At about 95,000 students, the district has 4,000 fewer students this year than it projected
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


Keep in mind that is what they expected. It would be interesting to know how much it dropped since COVID. I have a feeling some of the attrition was already accounted for in their expected number.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This isn't because of masks, vaccines and school closures.  Covid policy just exposed what has been happening in our public schools for years, children are no longer the priority in our public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enrollment dropped faster than expected at San Diego Unified
> 
> 
> At about 95,000 students, the district has 4,000 fewer students this year than it projected
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


Enrollment is falling in older districts all over the state.

Not many families can afford to move to any city that grew between 1940 and 1980.  So you have all these school districts that built facilities for the baby boom, but now have fewer kids.

It’s a side effect of the efforts to block any new housing construction.  If you have enough retirees trying to freeze their city in time, you get cities with no room for young people.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Enrollment is falling in older districts all over the state.
> 
> Not many families can afford to move to any city that grew between 1940 and 1980.  So you have all these school districts that built facilities for the baby boom, but now have fewer kids.
> 
> It’s a side effect of the efforts to block any new housing construction.  If you have enough retirees trying to freeze their city in time, you get cities with no room for young people.


Maybe so, but charter school enrollment has not decreased and private school demand has skyrocketed.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Enrollment is falling in older districts all over the state.
> 
> Not many families can afford to move to any city that grew between 1940 and 1980.  So you have all these school districts that built facilities for the baby boom, but now have fewer kids.
> 
> It’s a side effect of the efforts to block any new housing construction.  If you have enough retirees trying to freeze their city in time, you get cities with no room for young people.


Have you ever lived outside of the Bay Area?


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

watfly said:


> This isn't because of masks, vaccines and school closures.  Covid policy just exposed what has been happening in our public schools for years, children are no longer the priority in our public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enrollment dropped faster than expected at San Diego Unified
> 
> 
> At about 95,000 students, the district has 4,000 fewer students this year than it projected
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com


I would be interested to know if the drop out rate has risen with all the crap they have put kids through. My hope is the teachers and their union have overplayed their hand and parents will punish them by taking the kids to private, charter and home school. The public education system is a failure.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> I would be interested to know if the drop out rate has risen with all the crap they have put kids through. My hope is the teachers and their union have overplayed their hand and parents will punish them by taking the kids to private, charter and home school. The public education system is a failure.


When you starve something it will become weaker and weaker as time goes on. (see: USPS, infrastructure, public education, et al.)


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> When you starve something it will become weaker and weaker as time goes on. (see: USPS, infrastructure, public education, et al.)


They're not starving, their priorities are just grossly misguided.  It not how much they have to spend, its how its spent.

Utah is dead last in per capita education spending and its student achievement is greater than all but a few states and far better than California.  It is well know for it educated work force.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> They're not starving, their priorities are just grossly misguided.  It not how much they have to spend, its how its spent.
> 
> Utah is dead last in per capita education spending and its student achievement is greater than all but a few states and far better than California.  It is well know for it educated work force.


He's talking out his ass again. It's what Idiots and/or Trolls do.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> They're not starving, their priorities are just grossly misguided.  It not how much they have to spend, its how its spent.
> 
> Utah is dead last in per capita education spending and its student achievement is greater than all but a few states and far better than California.  It is well know for it educated work force.


I guess I’ll just have to take your word on that.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why is that posted in this thread?



Why not ?
The fear of the TRUTH is very very deep within you.


----------



## thirteenknots

A Letter to Andrew Hill | Dr Tess Lawrie | Oracle Films (rumble.com)


----------



## paytoplay

Anti vax is just fear of needles, ignorance and paranoia. Get some balls guys


----------



## thirteenknots

paytoplay said:


> Anti vax is just fear of needles, ignorance and paranoia. Get some balls guys


Your ignorance of the FACTS is why you responded as such above.

You need to get some testicles. 

Don't be a Schill.


----------



## thirteenknots

“LIST OF ADVERSE EVENTS OF SPECIAL INTEREST,” that 
lists 1,291 different adverse events.


pfizer-doc-5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf (childrenshealthdefense.org)


----------



## Grace T.

Quite a bit of evidence emerging that ivermectin is at least minimally helpful (at least about the same as masks).  The reluctance to try it probably cost some lives.  If  II were Rogan though, I wouldn't hold my breathe for an apology.


----------



## watfly

paytoplay said:


> Anti vax is just fear of needles, ignorance and paranoia. Get some balls guys


Even in that were true, which is not,  I'd rather fear needles than be afraid of children and place my burdens on them because of my irrational fear as an adult.  Talk about needing a pair.


----------



## watfly

LAUSD still clinging to masks for kids, likely through school year end.








						LAUSD: As COVID unmasking advances, hard part remains for district – building consensus
					

Some parents and educators feel it’s long past due for kids to shed their masks and to reclaim a sense of normalcy. But others – especially those in hard-hit communities – are not ready…




					www.dailynews.com
				




SDUSD still holding out another month until after spring break.








						San Diego Unified Dropping Indoor Mask Mandate After Spring Break
					

San Diego Unified School District will allow students and staff to go mask-free indoors when they return to campus from spring break on April 4, the district announced Thursday.




					www.nbcsandiego.com
				




Most other SD school districts (including my kids districts) following State guidelines and getting rid of masks March 12.

Follow the science.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Even in that were true, which is not,  I'd rather fear needles than be afraid of children and place my burdens on them because of my irrational fear as an adult.  Talk about needing a pair.


Being afraid to wear a mask is the ultimate definition of lacking a pair.  Sure masks are killing so many people, but still.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Quite a bit of evidence emerging that ivermectin is at least minimally helpful (at least about the same as masks).  The reluctance to try it probably cost some lives.  If  II were Rogan though, I wouldn't hold my breathe for an apology.


How many trials found no benefit to using ivermectin?  I know it's more than one, so ivermectin fans are still cheering for the losing side.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Quite a bit of evidence emerging that ivermectin is at least minimally helpful (at least about the same as masks).  The reluctance to try it probably cost some lives.  If  II were Rogan though, I wouldn't hold my breathe for an apology.


No, it was the fact that they did not get vaccinated - among all the other things that Joe Rogan told them they didn't need to - that got them killed. You may as well be saying Putin actually saved Ukranians' lives because he told them he was going to invade so they needed to get out.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Being afraid to wear a mask is the ultimate definition of lacking a pair.  Sure masks are killing so many people, but still.


You're really clueless!!! So out of touch with reality! You know how many kids are afraid to take off their mask in middle school because they fear they will be made fun of? A lot! Those making decisions have kids so far removed from the decisions they make it truly sad.  It started with having kids stay home and has continued with masking.  They literally have 0% chance of dying but will have emotional and social scares for the rest of their lives.  Selfish, greedy politicians and adults that are worried more about themselves than they do the children, even when they are vaccinated. Ridiculous


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Being afraid to wear a mask is the ultimate definition of lacking a pair.  Sure masks are killing so many people, but still.


Masks are like perforated condoms.  You’re gonna need a better argument.  Check Chapter 76, maybe some better material there.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> No, it was the fact that they did not get vaccinated - among all the other things that Joe Rogan told them they didn't need to - that got them killed. You may as well be saying Putin actually saved Ukranians' lives because he told them he was going to invade so they needed to get out.


98% Survival rate (at the LOWEST).

Obesity kills more people than Covid, but I do t see you banging your pots about Ronald killing Granny.

But blame little Johnny for killing Granny because he’s not wearing a mask.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Masks are like perforated condoms.  You’re gonna need a better argument.  Check Chapter 76, maybe some better material there.


So you're saying masks don't kill people?  So why are you so scared of them? Are you suffering from depression and on the verge of slashing your wrists because a mask is too much for you?  It is just too hard for you to take living anymore?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You're really clueless!!! So out of touch with reality! You know how many kids are afraid to take off their mask in middle school because they fear they will be made fun of? A lot! Those making decisions have kids so far removed from the decisions they make it truly sad.  It started with having kids stay home and has continued with masking.  They literally have 0% chance of dying but will have emotional and social scares for the rest of their lives.  Selfish, greedy politicians and adults that are worried more about themselves than they do the children, even when they are vaccinated. Ridiculous


I hear horse paste can cure your mask phobia too!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

This mother was pissed DeSantis told her son he could remove his mask……but where is hers?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> So you're saying masks don't kill people?  So why are you so scared of them? Are you suffering from depression and on the verge of slashing your wrists because a mask is too much for you?  It is just too hard for you to take living anymore?


Are you an environmentist?  Do you also support the ban on single use plastics?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> So you're saying masks don't kill people?  So why are you so scared of them? Are you suffering from depression and on the verge of slashing your wrists because a mask is too much for you?  It is just too hard for you to take living anymore?


 you are scared to be without?  interesting back and forth.  You must suffer the same, or maybe some separation anxiety, maskie has turned into a blankie.  You can wear one though, doesn't bother me.  Just make sure it's nice and tight, well fitted.  Quick sips  to ensure you stay hydrated and protected.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I hear horse paste can cure your mask phobia too!


That's the best you can do...haha...of course, you clearly don't have kids so what do you care....so selfish


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> you are scared to be without?  interesting back and forth.  You must suffer the same, or maybe some separation anxiety, maskie has turned into a blankie.  You can wear one though, doesn't bother me.  Just make sure it's nice and tight, well fitted.  Quick sips  to ensure you stay hydrated and protected.


You are exactly right, and I can tell you that is the exact feeling kids have of taking them off...it is their blankie and they are literally afraid of other kids seeing them without masks...for those like @GoldenGate that don't believe it...look up mask fishing on tik tok or you tube...its sad, it's for real


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You're really clueless!!! So out of touch with reality! You know how many kids are afraid to take off their mask in middle school because they fear they will be made fun of? A lot! Those making decisions have kids so far removed from the decisions they make it truly sad.  It started with having kids stay home and has continued with masking.  They literally have 0% chance of dying but will have emotional and social scares for the rest of their lives.  Selfish, greedy politicians and adults that are worried more about themselves than they do the children, even when they are vaccinated. Ridiculous


What are the odds they will spread Covid to a teacher? The bus driver? The admin staff? The student next to them with leukemia who doesn't know it yet?  

The emotional and social scars of wearing a mask just like everyone else at their school?  WTF are you talking about?  What kind of emotionally soft and feeble minded kids are you raising?


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> This mother was pissed DeSantis told her son he could remove his mask……but where is hers?
> 
> View attachment 13081


Looks like you're going to pick up where crushy-poo left off.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You are exactly right, and I can tell you that is the exact feeling kids have of taking them off...it is their blankie and they are literally afraid of other kids seeing them without masks...for those like @GoldenGate that don't believe it...look up mask fishing on tik tok or you tube...its sad, it's for real


You should file a lawsuit against LA Unified.  Oh wait, your friends already did and lost. 

Is your child chicken of vaccines too? Or just masks?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Looks like you're going to pick up where crushy-poo left off.


OK, good one.  However, this is an actual news interview.  I just can’t comprehend how she feels her child needs to wear a mask but she doesn’t….the interview with her is mind boggling.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You are exactly right, and I can tell you that is the exact feeling kids have of taking them off...it is their blankie and they are literally afraid of other kids seeing them without masks...for those like @GoldenGate that don't believe it...look up mask fishing on tik tok or you tube...its sad, it's for real


I love how you idiots claim that two studies (the only studies that have researched the issue) debunking the "China made Covid in a lab" conspiracy theory are bogus because they haven't been peer reviewed yet, but then turn around and rely on some bs from Tik Tok.  You're going to make a great successor to crush.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds they will spread Covid to a teacher? The bus driver? The admin staff? The student next to them with leukemia who doesn't know it yet?
> 
> The emotional and social scars of wearing a mask just like everyone else at their school?  WTF are you talking about?  What kind of emotionally soft and feeble minded kids are you raising?


The more you spew, the more clear it is you have never had kids and really have no clue.  You were probably neglected as a kid, thus the put downs and uneducated remarks to try and prove your nonsense.  But to answer you another way, it is most likely the feeble mined kids that turn into adults that are filling up the streets you live in up their in the bay area.  

But I will play along with you...Odds of passing it to a teacher 0%, odds of passing to a teacher 0%, odds of passing it someone at school 0%.  Do you have any research showing otherwise or you just speaking from another illogical opinion?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> You should file a lawsuit against LA Unified.  Oh wait, your friends already did and lost.
> 
> Is your child chicken of vaccines too? Or just masks?


Smart guy, my kids wouldnt be in school if they weren't vaxxed...once again showing your ignorance.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I love how you idiots claim that two studies (the only studies that have researched the issue) debunking the "China made Covid in a lab" conspiracy theory are bogus because they haven't been peer reviewed yet, but then turn around and rely on some bs from Tik Tok.  You're going to make a great successor to crush.


Do you actually think about what you are writing? BS from tik tok.... studies from a China lab? What are you talking about...no study from tik tok smart guy...if you had a kid I'd tell you to ask them about mask fishing, but you don't so you have no clue...I am trying to help you understand what is going on in the real world with kids because you don't have any. but clearly you are having trouble with understanding


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> OK, good one.  However, this is an actual news interview.  I just can’t comprehend how she feels her child needs to wear a mask but she doesn’t….the interview with her is mind boggling.


I love anecdotal stories. Let's do it. Here are, I mean were, some of your anti-mask buddies. All idiots who had it coming.  Hopefully they only killed themselves.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t8u7kl


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t8rlio


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t8qc0a


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t0qitn


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/sjlxbv
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t2g3j3/39_yo_sandy_was_a_super_fit_health_nut_she_didnt/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/shxxoq/blue_was_a_retired_cop_and_current_school_board/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/szfcrx/mississippi_woman_thought_face_masks_were/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/sqejap/43_year_old_california_man_considered_himself/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/t4a8bd/alabama_father_though_jan_6_was_antifa_masks/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ssq1z6/green_was_a_pastors_wife_and_biblical_scholar/


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Smart guy, my kids wouldnt be in school if they weren't vaxxed...once again showing your ignorance.


Gosh, why is it that you wouldn't want your kids in school if they weren't vaxxed? Thinking only about yourself again?  Are you telling me all those "immune compromised" children of the old school anti-vaxxers are just bullshit liars? Are you telling me that Covid can spread to teachers, staff and kids who can't get vaxxed?  I mean, I don't care about any of the kids or parents who simply choose not to get vaxxed.  By all means let's just let them die, right?


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds they will spread Covid to a teacher? The bus driver? The admin staff? The student next to them with leukemia who doesn't know it yet?
> 
> The emotional and social scars of wearing a mask just like everyone else at their school?  WTF are you talking about?  What kind of emotionally soft and feeble minded kids are you raising?


Wrong again (blame the fear), but nevertheless, no one is preventing teachers and students from wearing masks or getting vaccinated.  At some point we have to stop playing the victim and be responsible for our own health.  I could play the victim and blame you for making me dumber, or I could just take individual responsibility for my actions and stop reading your posts.









						COVID-19 in pediatric cancer patients is associated with treatment interruptions but not with short-term mortality: a Polish national study - Journal of Hematology & Oncology
					

Background Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) currently constitutes the leading and overwhelming health issue worldwide. In comparison with adults, children present milder symptoms, with most having an asymptomatic course...




					jhoonline.biomedcentral.com


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Smart guy, my kids wouldnt be in school if they weren't vaxxed...once again showing your ignorance.


We should start a petition to get all the fat and sick kids, plus teachers over 50, out of our school system school so our kids can get back to being not having to deal with the shame of wearing masks.  Am I right?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Wrong again (blame the fear), but nevertheless, no one is preventing teachers and students from wearing masks or getting vaccinated.  At some point we have to stop playing the victim and be responsible for our own health.  I could play the victim and blame you for making me dumber, or I could just take individual responsibility for my actions and stop reading your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 in pediatric cancer patients is associated with treatment interruptions but not with short-term mortality: a Polish national study - Journal of Hematology & Oncology
> 
> 
> Background Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) currently constitutes the leading and overwhelming health issue worldwide. In comparison with adults, children present milder symptoms, with most having an asymptomatic course...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jhoonline.biomedcentral.com


Nowhere in your post did I hear anything about your responsibility for the health or safety of anyone besides yourself.  That is the American Way. Screw other people if it means even the slightest inconvenience to you.  It's our right to be able to take our Covid and our AR-15s to school if we want, am I right?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Nowhere in your post did I hear anything about your responsibility for the health or safety of anyone besides yourself.  That is the American Way. Screw other people if it means even the slightest inconvenience to you.  It's our right to be able to take our Covid and our AR-15s to school if we want, am I right?


That is your same argument. You just said that kids are being raised too soft that they can't handle the mask fishing...so why is it okay for them to wear them for you but not okay if they don't wear it for themselves? Such a bad argument, especially since anyone can wear a mask or get vaxxed if they want.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Gosh, why is it that you wouldn't want your kids in school if they weren't vaxxed? Thinking only about yourself again?  Are you telling me all those "immune compromised" children of the old school anti-vaxxers are just bullshit liars? Are you telling me that Covid can spread to teachers, staff and kids who can't get vaxxed?  I mean, I don't care about any of the kids or parents who simply choose not to get vaxxed.  By all means let's just let them die, right?


Getting vaxxed with proven vaccines, that actually prevent the spread and ability to catch the disease, is a lot different than a covid flu shot!! You do know that the flu shot is a vaccine right? As far as I know there is no mandate to get that...hmm


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> What are the odds they will spread Covid to a teacher? The bus driver? The admin staff? *The student next to them with leukemia who doesn't know it yet? *
> 
> The emotional and social scars of wearing a mask just like everyone else at their school?  WTF are you talking about?  What kind of emotionally soft and feeble minded kids are you raising?


wut TF.  scraping bottom I see.  Look, hang on to your blankie but the gig is up.  I know you are so sciency (circa 2020) but the party is over. Are you still stuck on cloth masks?  or maybe bandanas? 

Standing by, waiting for your trumpy boogey man diatribe with laser beams.   3..2..1..


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> We should start a petition to get all the fat and sick kids, plus teachers over 50, out of our school system school so our kids can get back to being not having to deal with the shame of wearing masks.  Am I right?


No exclusion, that is what you are trying to do...I would not exclude people, that is the big difference between me and you.  You only care about yourself and I allow people to make their own decisions.


----------



## watfly

soccersc said:


> No exclusion, that is what you are trying to do...I would not exclude people, that is the big difference between me and you.  You only care about yourself and I allow people to make their own decisions.


Yeah but, your and others decisions are wrong and GG's are right, so he and his people should get to make the decisions for us.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Wrong again (blame the fear), but nevertheless, no one is preventing teachers and students from wearing masks or getting vaccinated.  At some point we have to stop playing the victim and be responsible for our own health.  I could play the victim and blame you for making me dumber, or I could just take individual responsibility for my actions and stop reading your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 in pediatric cancer patients is associated with treatment interruptions but not with short-term mortality: a Polish national study - Journal of Hematology & Oncology
> 
> 
> Background Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) currently constitutes the leading and overwhelming health issue worldwide. In comparison with adults, children present milder symptoms, with most having an asymptomatic course...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jhoonline.biomedcentral.com


Did you read this?  I like the sentence that says "For the majority of pediatric cancer patients, SARS-CoV-2 infection does not result in a severe, life-threatening course".  Too bad for the rest, eh?  I also really love that it was a study of 155 kids.  Wow, that's a great sample size upon which to draw conclusions, am I right?  

Wearing a mask is just so humiliating for kids.  All the cool unmasked kids are picking them out to beat up for their lunch money.  I don't know how any kid who has ever been a high school student the last two years will ever get over having to wear masks.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Yeah but, your and others decisions are wrong and GG's are right, so he and his people should get to make the decisions for us.


I'm not making the decisions idiot.  The State of California, school districts, and city councils are.  I'm not even whining about what is happening.  The only snowflakes here are the ones who can't take it.  Gosh, if it makes you so angry, you should try to recall Gav Gav.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> No exclusion, that is what you are trying to do...I would not exclude people, that is the big difference between me and you.  You only care about yourself and I allow people to make their own decisions.


I see, so you want sick kids to die because wearing a mask is too embarrassing for you?  Did the girl scouts mock you on your way into Vons because you were maskless?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> LAUSD still clinging to masks for kids, likely through school year end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LAUSD: As COVID unmasking advances, hard part remains for district – building consensus
> 
> 
> Some parents and educators feel it’s long past due for kids to shed their masks and to reclaim a sense of normalcy. But others – especially those in hard-hit communities – are not ready…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailynews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SDUSD still holding out another month until after spring break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Diego Unified Dropping Indoor Mask Mandate After Spring Break
> 
> 
> San Diego Unified School District will allow students and staff to go mask-free indoors when they return to campus from spring break on April 4, the district announced Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcsandiego.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most other SD school districts (including my kids districts) following State guidelines and getting rid of masks March 12.
> 
> Follow the science.


Joe Rogan says no to masks!  No to vaccines!  Yes to horse de-wormer!  Be a free thinker like crush!


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not making the decisions idiot.  The State of California, school districts, and city councils are.  I'm not even whining about what is happening.  The only snowflakes here are the ones who can't take it.  Gosh, if it makes you so angry, you should try to recall Gav Gav.


Your right, my bad, I forgot about science.


----------



## what-happened

soccersc said:


> No exclusion, that is what you are trying to do...I would not exclude people, that is the big difference between me and you.  You only care about yourself and I allow people to make their own decisions.


GG is pushing your buttons.  Rarely does GG even understand what's being discussed. - very basic at a minimum.  At some point the orange boogey man will be introducted and you will be accused of being a devout follower, dumb, fat, low income.  You may even be accused of being from modesto...Being triple masked/vaxxed and basement bound is tough on the noggin.  

The entertainment is legit.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Yeah but, your and others decisions are wrong and GG's are right, so he and his people should get to make the decisions for us.


You seem to forget how democracy works, so let me explain.  Democracy is when the majority of people (which includes me) vote for elected officials who enact and enforce laws like requiring masks in schools.  In fact, it is super duper democratic given you even had the chance to recall the very elected official that you can't stop whining about, but got trounced.  Whining about how it isn't fair, and belittling that process with stupid comments like how the majority is just me and "my other people" is anti-democracy.  Storming the Capitol because you're whiny losers, that's also anti-democracy.

Quick question for you and your three (four before crush left) friends here.  If masks and vaccines aren't helpful, why do most hospitals mandate them among staff?  We should anti-mask our entire healthcare system too, am I right?  Why stop with the schools?  There are kids in hospitals too, right?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Your right, my bad, I forgot about science.


Hospitals are anti-science.  The vast majority of them require that everyone in the building wear masks, and that all staff get vaccinated.  Pretty soon you'll have no choice but to home school AND self medicate.  I hear substance abuse is a much better way to go than on the vent anyway.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> If masks and vaccines aren't helpful, *why do most hospitals mandate them among staff*?  We should anti-mask our entire healthcare system too, am I right?  Why stop with the schools?  There are kids in hospitals too, right?


Why do they?  great question sciency person.  Where have you been?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Hospitals are anti-science.  The vast majority of them require that everyone in the building wear masks, and that all staff get vaccinated.  Pretty soon you'll have no choice but to home school AND self medicate.  I hear substance abuse is a much better way to go than on the vent anyway.


I doubt you even know what a vent is.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Did you read this?  I like the sentence that says "For the majority of pediatric cancer patients, SARS-CoV-2 infection does not result in a severe, life-threatening course".  Too bad for the rest, eh?  I also really love that it was a study of 155 kids.  Wow, that's a great sample size upon which to draw conclusions, am I right?
> 
> Wearing a mask is just so humiliating for kids.  All the cool unmasked kids are picking them out to beat up for their lunch money.  I don't know how any kid who has ever been a high school student the last two years will ever get over having to wear masks.


You are one of those that says don't worry kids are resilient...yet you never had a kid...then those kids grow up and have all sorts of issues because how they were treated when they were you...by this comment my bet is you were the bully that picked on kids...you are not a good person


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I see, so you want sick kids to die because wearing a mask is too embarrassing for you?  Did the girl scouts mock you on your way into Vons because you were maskless?


You have terrible reading comprehension or the ability to have any sort of long term recollection.  I never once spoke of myself wearing a mask, I am talking about kids, and their mental well being, but of course you really don't care about kids because you don't have any...one day you will understand grasshopper


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not making the decisions idiot.  The State of California, school districts, and city councils are.  I'm not even whining about what is happening.  The only snowflakes here are the ones who can't take it.  Gosh, if it makes you so angry, you should try to recall Gav Gav.


Yeah smart guy, you aren't making the decisions, but its idiots like you that support that trash that's going on right now...but I suppose you probably think we are doing well as a country these days...lol


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> We should start a petition to get all the fat and sick kids, plus teachers over 50, out of our school system school so our kids can get back to being not having to deal with the shame of wearing masks.  Am I right?


Ethnic purification.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Yeah smart guy, you aren't making the decisions, but its idiots like you that support that trash that's going on right now...but I suppose you probably think we are doing well as a country these days...lol


I see.  Free thinkers like you, Joe Rogan, white nationalists, crush and a couple other people here are the ones who know what you're talking about.  It really is a conspiracy to take down the manufacturer of horse de-wormer.  There really is a tunnel under that DC pizza parlor straight to the WH.  Ted Cruz's dad really did shoot JFK.  Jack Ruby and the guy in the viking helmet who stormed the Capitol were really ANTIFA.  Democracy really is doing such a terrible job, we need to get rid of it ASAP as you propose. If you can't have your democracy a la carte, what is the point right?  Especially if it's going to result in your kid getting embarrassed at school because he needs to wear a mask.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> Why do they?  great question sciency person.  Where have you been?


The best part is hospitals in California allowed Covid positive nurses to keep working.  So someone that doesn't have Covid is a big risk and needs to wear a mask at a hospital, but its OK for a Covid positive person to work at a hospital.  Makes perfect sense in a sciency sort of way.


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ethnic purification.


The remaining twits don't know what to do without crush to cover up their crazy with his historically crazy.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> The best part is hospitals in California allowed Covid positive nurses to keep working.  So someone that doesn't have Covid is a big risk and needs to wear a mask at a hospital, but its OK for a Covid positive person to work at a hospital.  Makes perfect sense in a sciency sort of way.


IKR?  These hospitals have no idea what they're doing.  They need to get those masks off all their staff.  Stat!  

I wonder how many of you nut jobs ever imagined that one day you'd be calling doctors and hospitals clueless about healthcare delivery and public health. And the CDC.  And the NIH.  And the American Medical Association.  And the American Academy of Pediatrics.  Was there some event in your life that caused you to lose your mind?  Fell off a bike without a helmet?  Fell off a horse without a helmet?  Played too much football without a helmet?  Air bag didn't deploy? When you were sitting in the back of your remedial science class in HS (in which you got a D only so the school could you the hell out of there), did you day dream that one day you and a former UFC announcer would save the world from a pandemic by telling everyone to eat horse de-wormer?


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> The best part is hospitals in California allowed Covid positive nurses to keep working.  So someone that doesn't have Covid is a big risk and needs to wear a mask at a hospital, but its OK for a Covid positive person to work at a hospital.  Makes perfect sense in a sciency sort of way.


It's just nuts.  There is a reason why nurses and other healthcare workers in hosptitals are leaving - on to greener pastures where the pay is better and the leadership more logical.  Good money to be made in telehealth, sales, traveling .  Good on them but hospitals will suffer.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I see.  Free thinkers like you, Joe Rogan, white nationalists, crush and a couple other people here are the ones who know what you're talking about.  It really is a conspiracy to take down the manufacturer of horse de-wormer.  There really is a tunnel under that DC pizza parlor straight to the WH.  Ted Cruz's dad really did shoot JFK.  Jack Ruby and the guy in the viking helmet who stormed the Capitol were really ANTIFA.  Democracy really is doing such a terrible job, we need to get rid of it ASAP as you propose. If you can't have your democracy a la carte, what is the point right?  Especially if it's going to result in your kid getting embarrassed at school because he needs to wear a mask.





GoldenGate said:


> I see.  Free thinkers like you, Joe Rogan, white nationalists, crush and a couple other people here are the ones who know what you're talking about.  It really is a conspiracy to take down the manufacturer of horse de-wormer.  There really is a tunnel under that DC pizza parlor straight to the WH.  Ted Cruz's dad really did shoot JFK.  Jack Ruby and the guy in the viking helmet who stormed the Capitol were really ANTIFA.  Democracy really is doing such a terrible job, we need to get rid of it ASAP as you propose. If you can't have your democracy a la carte, what is the point right?  Especially if it's going to result in your kid getting embarrassed at school because he needs to wear a mask.


So when you realize you are wrong, you just start going on a rant about nonsense to try and deflect from your terrible argument that you can’t defend. Point is, mask wearing is effecting kids socially and emotionally and you have no clue what that means because you aren’t around kids or have kids of your own. If you did, you would understand, maybe one day you will have a kid and realize how little you actually thought you knew


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> IKR?  These hospitals have no idea what they're doing.  They need to get those masks off all their staff.  Stat!
> 
> I wonder how many of you nut jobs ever imagined that one day you'd be calling doctors and hospitals clueless about healthcare delivery and public health. And the CDC.  And the NIH.  And the American Medical Association.  And the American Academy of Pediatrics.  Was there some event in your life that caused you to lose your mind?  Fell off a bike without a helmet?  Fell off a horse without a helmet?  Played too much football without a helmet?  Air bag didn't deploy? When you were sitting in the back of your remedial science class in HS (in which you got a D only so the school could you the hell out of there), did you day dream that one day you and a former UFC announcer would save the world from a pandemic by telling everyone to eat horse de-wormer?


I absolutely love the fact that you own your words, such conviction and mastery of the topic.    What exactly is a remedial science class? 

You do make a good sheep, thinking that public health and hosptitals have hit homeruns in pandemic response.  Oh, let's not forget your local and state government agencies.  They've been on it too.  Mask on, mask off.  Vaxx on, Vaxx off.  I'm sure you can't wait for the u5 vaccine to take off - then you'll finally feel safe.  All of those snotty ulittles spreadin that covid to everyone, jumpstarting breakthrough infections, havens for mutating virus. 

You are such a beloved clown.


----------



## met61

Anyone else care to join this doctor's display of intestinal fortitude?









						CITIZEN FREE PRESS
					

The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> Anyone else care to join this doctor's display of intestinal fortitude?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CITIZEN FREE PRESS
> 
> 
> The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizenfreepress.com


When you were sitting in the back of the HS civics class that you eventually failed, did you day dream that one day you and an anonymous "news" aggregator would save the world by exposing the LA Times, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the CDC, the AMA, the American Association of Pediatrics and virtually every healthcare provider in America as frauds and engaged in a conspiracy to destroy our children's self-esteem?  

Hey, where'd doctor quackapotomus go to medical school?  Care to chime in on this guy's work history and expertise?  How 'bout his "expert opinion" about how the vaccine is killing 2x more people than it saves?  About how he thinks people should be more worried about the medical industries' conspiracy to silence him than Qanon?  I take it he and crush are geniuses?  

And what about this Citizen Free Press?  A pillar of journalistic excellence am I right?  Are only the most qualified (mostly anonymous) freedom lovers allowed to post articles there? That article about feminine hygiene products in a Drexel U men's room would be Pulitzer for sure if it weren't in on the conspiracy too.  Seriously, everyone is in on this conspiracy.  So conspiratorial.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> I absolutely love the fact that you own your words, such conviction and mastery of the topic.    What exactly is a remedial science class?
> 
> You do make a good sheep, thinking that public health and hosptitals have hit homeruns in pandemic response.  Oh, let's not forget your local and state government agencies.  They've been on it too.  Mask on, mask off.  Vaxx on, Vaxx off.  I'm sure you can't wait for the u5 vaccine to take off - then you'll finally feel safe.  All of those snotty ulittles spreadin that covid to everyone, jumpstarting breakthrough infections, havens for mutating virus.
> 
> You are such a beloved clown.


If hospitals and public health officials are telling you something, absolutely positively don't believe it!  Am I right?  Our very lives depend on disregarding the CDC, the AMA, the American Association of Pediatrics, the NIH, virtually every hospital in America and California's public health agencies.  Plus the NYT, OSHA, California's public health agencies, the NYT, WaPo, the LA Times.  They are all part of an anti-science conspiracy to kill our children.  Believe one guy in Louisiana instead!  I don't know anything about him, but he is clearly the only one standing up for science and freedom!  Vaccines kill! Masks kill!


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> If hospitals and public health officials are telling you something, absolutely positively don't believe it!  Am I right?  Our very lives depend on disregarding the CDC, the AMA, the American Association of Pediatrics, the NIH, virtually every hospital in America and California's public health agencies.  Plus the NYT, OSHA, California's public health agencies, the NYT, WaPo, the LA Times.  They are all part of an anti-science conspiracy to kill our children.  Believe one guy in Louisiana instead!  I don't know anything about him, but he is clearly the only one standing up for science and freedom!  Vaccines kill! Masks kill!


You’re rambling again…tell you what…why don’t you get off the board, go find someone nice, have a kid, then come back and let us know how it all worked out.  You’re just one of those kids who listened so wholeheartedly to your professor that you failed to do any intellectual thinking on your own.  Go free young grasshopper


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> The remaining twits don't know what to do without crush to cover up their crazy with his historically crazy.


At first, I read "hysterically crazy" and that made more sense.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You’re rambling again…tell you what…why don’t you get off the board, go find someone nice, have a kid, then come back and let us know how it all worked out.  You’re just one of those kids who listened so wholeheartedly to your professor that you failed to do any intellectual thinking on your own.  Go free young grasshopper


I'm sorry, you couldn't find a real doctor to support anything you're saying?  Just a former UFC announcer and some joke of a doctor you don't know anything about who may or may not even be real?  You guys really need to go back to the Bangladesh and Polish "studies" that you found from your alt right fringe websites. 

Seriously, what led to your mental break?  How did you ever get from being just a pretty dumb HS student to believing that the American Association of Pediatrics is really a cabal of evil baby killers?  Did you just wake up one day and say, "Wow, that UFC announcer really makes a lot of sense with his 'outside the box' free thinking that is the opposite of what just about every public health agency and hospital is saying?" Or did you ease into conspiracy theories with Costner's JFK movie followed by some Swift boating?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> When you were sitting in the back of the HS civics class that you eventually failed, did you day dream that one day you and an anonymous "news" aggregator would save the world by exposing the LA Times, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the CDC, the AMA, the American Association of Pediatrics and virtually every healthcare provider in America as frauds and engaged in a conspiracy to destroy our children's self-esteem?
> 
> Hey, where'd doctor quackapotomus go to medical school?  Care to chime in on this guy's work history and expertise?  How 'bout his "expert opinion" about how the vaccine is killing 2x more people than it saves?  About how he thinks people should be more worried about the medical industries' conspiracy to silence him than Qanon?  I take it he and crush are geniuses?
> 
> And what about this Citizen Free Press?  A pillar of journalistic excellence am I right?  Are only the most qualified (mostly anonymous) freedom lovers allowed to post articles there? That article about feminine hygiene products in a Drexel U men's room would be Pulitzer for sure if it weren't in on the conspiracy too.  Seriously, everyone is in on this conspiracy.  So conspiratorial.


...so no, you lack intestinal fortitude. Shocked!


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> I'm sorry, you couldn't find a real doctor to support anything you're saying?  Just a former UFC announcer and some joke of a doctor you don't know anything about who may or may not even be real?  You guys really need to go back to the Bangladesh and Polish "studies" that you found from your alt right fringe websites.
> 
> Seriously, what led to your mental break?  How did you ever get from being just a pretty dumb HS student to believing that the American Association of Pediatrics is really a cabal of evil baby killers?  Did you just wake up one day and say, "Wow, that UFC announcer really makes a lot of sense with his 'outside the box' free thinking that is the opposite of what just about every public health agency and hospital is saying?" Or did you ease into conspiracy theories with Costner's JFK movie followed by some Swift boating?


...for the love of God man...not John Kerry! You're broken.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...so no, you lack intestinal fortitude. Shocked!


No you do. Well, mostly it sounds like your kids do.  It sounds like home school is right up their alley.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> No you do. Well, mostly it sounds like your kids do.  It sounds like home school is right up their alley.


...lame, I known better... I'm out.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I'm sorry, you couldn't find a real doctor to support anything you're saying?  Just a former UFC announcer and some joke of a doctor you don't know anything about who may or may not even be real?  You guys really need to go back to the Bangladesh and Polish "studies" that you found from your alt right fringe websites.
> 
> Seriously, what led to your mental break?  How did you ever get from being just a pretty dumb HS student to believing that the American Association of Pediatrics is really a cabal of evil baby killers?  Did you just wake up one day and say, "Wow, that UFC announcer really makes a lot of sense with his 'outside the box' free thinking that is the opposite of what just about every public health agency and hospital is saying?" Or did you ease into conspiracy theories with Costner's JFK movie followed by some Swift boating?


you are on fire today!! I actually woke up and saidwhy does there have to be so many idiots that are afraid to think on their own and have an actual intellectual debate, because people like you can’t handle being wrong. You are incapable of thinking for yourself so you have others do it for you. So once someone questions your judgment, you jump straight to antI vaxxer and name calling. Your card house is starting to crumble and you fear you have been wrong this whole time.

Here is the logic you follow and believe in… next week kids dont need to wear mask, but if they don’t wear a mask today they get sent out of the class…I can see you supporting that…that’s good science you are following…you are brilliant…hahaha how do you buy that stuff…you’re high school education just be lacking more than mine…lol


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Getting vaxxed with proven vaccines, that actually prevent the spread and ability to catch the disease, is a lot different than a covid flu shot!! You do know that the flu shot is a vaccine right? As far as I know there is no mandate to get that...hmm


So the vaccine providing a far better chance of limited symptoms and chance of being hospitalized or death is not good enough for you?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> It's just nuts.  There is a reason why nurses and other healthcare workers in hosptitals are leaving - on to greener pastures where the pay is better and the leadership more logical.  Good money to be made in telehealth, sales, traveling .  Good on them but hospitals will suffer.


A friend just came home from the hospital after needed surgery with Covid. Went in with a negative came out with a positive.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> So the vaccine providing a far better chance of limited symptoms and chance of being hospitalized or death is not good enough for you?


For myself, I got Covid, I didn’t go to hospital or have symptoms severe enough to feel like I need to get it…doesn’t mean that everyone shouldn’t get it, but for me there wasn’t a need.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> or I could just take individual responsibility for my actions and stop reading your posts.


Welcome to the club.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> For myself, I got Covid, I didn’t go to hospital or have symptoms severe enough to feel like I need to get it…doesn’t mean that everyone shouldn’t get it, but for me there wasn’t a need.


So you’re only concerned about yourself, check.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> A friend just came home from the hospital after needed surgery with Covid. Went in with a negative came out with a positive.


sorry to hear that..happens all the time.  Was everyone wearing N95s, surgical masks?  or no masks?  Vaccination status of your friend, of the statff?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> If hospitals and public health officials are telling you something, absolutely positively don't believe it!  Am I right?  Our very lives depend on disregarding the CDC, the AMA, the American Association of Pediatrics, the NIH, virtually every hospital in America and California's public health agencies.  Plus the NYT, OSHA, California's public health agencies, the NYT, WaPo, the LA Times.  They are all part of an anti-science conspiracy to kill our children.  Believe one guy in Louisiana instead!  I don't know anything about him, but he is clearly the only one standing up for science and freedom!  Vaccines kill! Masks kill!


Guy in louisina?wut?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> sorry to hear that..happens all the time.  Was everyone wearing N95s, surgical masks?  or no masks?  Vaccination status of your friend, of the statff?


He’s fully vaxxed, no visitors of course so only came in contact with staff. He says it was probably the surly nurse who wasn’t so friendly.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> He’s fully vaxxed, no visitors of course so only came in contact with staff. He says it was probably the surly nurse who wasn’t so friendly.


You'd be surly too if you were forced to work while you had Covid.


----------



## Grace T.

They were just wrong on pretty much everything.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501067734796279808


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you’re only concerned about yourself, check.


How does me getting the vaccine mean I only care about myself? Check.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> They were just wrong on pretty much everything.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501067734796279808


A couple thoughts.  First, why do the anti-vaxxers use non-peer reviewed "studies", "articles" and Tik tok as "proof" of something that reinforces their bias, but reject studies that don't, even if they have been peer reviewed? Second, who are these people who did this "study"?  The answer for people like Grace is "who cares if it supports my position".

Most importantly, though, what did this study actually do and what did it actually find?  Well, it found that wearing masks did have a significant impact at the youngest age groups that it analyzed.  It also looked only at kids 3-11, which is obviously very different than dealing with middle and high school kids in the US who move from class to class and social interaction to social interaction all day long, rendering single classroom protective measures far less effective.  Furthermore, it noted that vax rates for students in Catalonia is much, much higher than in the US, except at those younger age groups where vaccination requirements do not apply.  In other words, it looks very much like a combination of vaccination and mask wearing is very effective where vaccination rates are lower like, um, the U.S.

Do you want to know what other evidence supports this conclusion?  Well, the equestrian would know the answer if she actually read the article.  Or maybe she did and, rather than just being an easily duped idiot who relies on twitter soundbites, she's intentionally misleading people because she knows her fellow anti-vax/maskers don't read and couldn't understand it even if they did.  Regardless, her "study" references another study involving the dumbest state in the US - Arizona - and guess what that study found?  It found that the odds of an outbreak in K-12 in AZ were 3-5x higher without an early mask mandate than with. So shocking. It also quoted the following from yet another US study "By analysing 520 counties during the first two months of the 2021-22 academic year in the USA, it was found that those counties without a [mask] mandate presented greater increases ni paediatric [Covid-19] cases." The study also admitted that in Spain they have shitty masks. In sort, if the equestrian actually read the article, she would know this "study" is a minority view and is apparently contradicted by every single study that analyses mask effectiveness in the United States, where vax rates are much lower and masks therefore a more important part of a school system's ability to limit Covid transmission.  So why has she reached a definitive opinion knowing that - at best - for her most studies reach the opposite conclusion?


----------



## GoldenGate

By the way, the Arizona study that the legal seagull's study quoted was peer reviewed.  Those of you anti-vaxxers/maskers who were pretending to care about peer review when you previously disregarded the two studies that debunked your conspiracy theory about Fauci paying China to create a deadly virus in a lab for population control purposes will now need to find another excuse to ignore reality.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> A couple thoughts.  First, why do the anti-vaxxers use non-peer reviewed "studies", "articles" and Tik tok as "proof" of something that reinforces their bias, but reject studies that don't, even if they have been peer reviewed? Second, who are these people who did this "study"?  The answer for people like Grace is "who cares if it supports my position".
> 
> Most importantly, though, what did this study actually do and what did it actually find?  Well, it found that wearing masks did have a significant impact at the youngest age groups that it analyzed.  It also looked only at kids 3-11, which is obviously very different than dealing with middle and high school kids in the US who move from class to class and social interaction to social interaction all day long, rendering single classroom protective measures far less effective.  Furthermore, it noted that vax rates for students in Catalonia is much, much higher than in the US, except at those younger age groups where vaccination requirements do not apply.  In other words, it looks very much like a combination of vaccination and mask wearing is very effective where vaccination rates are lower like, um, the U.S.
> 
> Do you want to know what other evidence supports this conclusion?  Well, the equestrian would know the answer if she actually read the article.  Or maybe she did and, rather than just being an easily duped idiot who relies on twitter soundbites, she's intentionally misleading people because she knows her fellow anti-vax/maskers don't read and couldn't understand it even if they did.  Regardless, her "study" references another study involving the dumbest state in the US - Arizona - and guess what that study found?  It found that the odds of an outbreak in K-12 in AZ were 3-5x higher without an early mask mandate than with. So shocking. It also quoted the following from yet another US study "By analysing 520 counties during the first two months of the 2021-22 academic year in the USA, it was found that those counties without a [mask] mandate presented greater increases ni paediatric [Covid-19] cases." The study also admitted that in Spain they have shitty masks. In sort, if the equestrian actually read the article, she would know this "study" is a minority view and is apparently contradicted by every single study that analyses mask effectiveness in the United States, where vax rates are much lower and masks therefore a more important part of a school system's ability to limit Covid transmission.  So why has she reached a definitive opinion knowing that - at best - for her most studies reach the opposite conclusion?


And Dr. Gandhi favors vaccination for 5-11 year-olds.  Is her expert opinion wrong there too?









						The Childhood Vaccine Debate Ignores a Crucial Point: Kids Aren't Supposed to Die
					

Spending time debating if instead of how children should get the vaccine ignores every parent’s goal: keeping their children healthy




					time.com


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> And Dr. Ghandhi favors vaccination for 5-11 year-olds.  Is here expert opinion wrong there too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Childhood Vaccine Debate Ignores a Crucial Point: Kids Aren't Supposed to Die
> 
> 
> Spending time debating if instead of how children should get the vaccine ignores every parent’s goal: keeping their children healthy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com


She only wants her "facts" a la carte and devoid of context.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> She only wants her "facts" a la carte and devoid of context.


Grace performs like those ducks and rabbits on an old-timey shooting gallery.  No matter how many times you shoot them down, they pop back up again a short time later.


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Grace performs like those ducks and rabbits on an old-timey shooting gallery.  No matter how many times you shoot them down, they pop back up again a short time later.


I think she's more like one of those inflatable clown-faced bop bags that do the same thing.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> How does me getting the vaccine mean I only care about myself? Check.


Uh, by definition the answer to that must be "yes" unless you're willing to break from your anti-vax/mask friends and admit the truth, which is that getting vaccinated also reduces the risk that you will transmit it to others.


----------



## met61

...seeing fellow citizens continuously engage in the irrational is disappointing.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...seeing fellow citizens continuously engage in the irrational is disappointing.


Do you have a peer reviewed study to support anything you have ever said? Please also tell us more about Dr. Quackaroo from Louisiana.  Or maybe explain why you think the American studies quoted in the legal seagull's "study" are wrong?  It would be really great if you could conduct a deep dive into the methodologies used in those studies and then get back to us? Really though, we all know your attention span can only handle what a former UFC announcer tells you about epidemiology because actual rational thought is too much for you.

Maybe you should consider taking your viking hat to whatever safe space crush is now inhabiting.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...seeing fellow citizens continuously engage in the irrational is disappointing.


Fear and emotion tends to interfere with rationale thought.  But granted, this fear of children is disturbing.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Fear and emotion tends to interfere with rationale thought.  But granted, this fear of children is disturbing.


So apparently the answer is "no", none of you have any peer reviewed studies to support anything you're saying, plus you simply ignore all the studies that say you're wrong.  Just to make sure I've got your position straight.  The CDC is wrong.  The NIH is wrong.  The American Medical Association is wrong.  The American Association of Pediatrics is wrong.  Most hospitals and public health agencies are wrong.  The peer review study that was cited in the legal beagle's twitter article is wrong.  The second article cited but not yet been peer reviewed is wrong. The majority of Californians are also wrong. The fact that transmission rates are 3-5x higher at anti-mask AZ Covid cesspools didn't happen.  In fact, not only are they wrong, but they're irrational.  Crush, a former UFC announcer and a guy in a viking helmet and face paint who stormed the Capitol, however, are free thinkers and leading the way into the light and truth?

I feel bad for your kids if you raised them to be so emotionally feeble that wearing a mask at school causes them a downward spiral into self-pity and depression.  Maybe buy them an AR-15 to cheer 'em up. Better yet, get your act together and be a parent instead of a whiny selfish Karen.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, by definition the answer to that must be "yes" unless you're willing to break from your anti-vax/mask friends and admit the truth, which is that getting vaccinated also reduces the risk that you will transmit it to others.


You didn't answer the question! 
How does not getting the vaccine make me selfish? 
Your answer makes no sense... by definition the answer is yes? What are you talking about 

Transmission rates cannot be calculated by those that are vaccinated and not vaccinated, we have went over this, your retention is terrible.  With your inability to retain the very basics, you must have had to take the same courses over and over in high school so you could eventually pass.  Public education has failed you, hopefully those JC courses helped get you caught up.


----------



## GoldenGate

Well, it looks like the first of many of your anti-vax, anti-mask rational patriot friends is going to prison.









						In the first Jan. 6 trial, a jury found Capitol riot defendant Guy Reffitt guilty
					

A jury found Guy Reffitt guilty on all counts for his participation in the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol. The case has been widely watched by other defendants as a potential bellwether.




					www.npr.org


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> So apparently the answer is "no", none of you have any peer reviewed studies to support anything you're saying, plus you simply ignore all the studies that say you're wrong.  Just to make sure I've got your position straight.  The CDC is wrong.  The NIH is wrong.  The American Medical Association is wrong.  The American Association of Pediatrics is wrong.  Most hospitals and public health agencies are wrong.  The peer review study that was cited in the legal beagle's twitter article is wrong.  The second article cited but not yet been peer reviewed is wrong. The majority of Californians are also wrong. The fact that transmission rates are 3-5x higher at anti-mask AZ Covid cesspools didn't happen.  In fact, not only are they wrong, but they're irrational.  Crush, a former UFC announcer and a guy in a viking helmet and face paint who stormed the Capitol, however, are free thinkers and leading the way into the light and truth?
> 
> I feel bad for your kids if you raised them to be so emotionally feeble that wearing a mask at school causes them a downward spiral into self-pity and depression.  Maybe buy them an AR-15 to cheer 'em up. Better yet, get your act together and be a parent instead of a whiny selfish Karen.


Let me check Reddit and get back to you.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> You didn't answer the question!
> How does not getting the vaccine make me selfish?
> Your answer makes no sense... by definition the answer is yes? What are you talking about
> 
> *Transmission rates cannot be calculated by those that are vaccinated and not vaccinated,* we have went over this, your retention is terrible.  With your inability to retain the very basics, you must have had to take the same courses over and over in high school so you could eventually pass.  Public education has failed you, hopefully those JC courses helped get you caught up.


Really?  Why would it be *impossible* to calculate the transmission rate by vaccination status subgroup?  Remember they already did the same calculation by mask status subgroup.

You’re essentially saying “soccersc doesn’t know how.”.  No shame in that.  Most people don’t know how.  That’s entirely different from saying it cannot be done.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Really?  Why would it be *impossible* to calculate the transmission rate by vaccination status subgroup?  Remember they already did the same calculation by mask status subgroup.
> 
> You’re essentially saying “soccersc doesn’t know how.”.  No shame in that.  Most people don’t know how.  That’s entirely different from saying it cannot be done.


Okay...sure anyone can come up with some sort of study that tries to get as close as possible to calculate it accurately...but there are way way too many variables in transmission to get truly valid study

Fact is that most transmission takes place in the home


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Okay...sure anyone can come up with some sort of study that tries to get as close as possible to calculate it accurately...but there are way way too many variables in transmission to get truly valid study
> 
> Fact is that most transmission takes place in the home


I guess now we know how anti-vaxxers/maskers deny peer reviewed studies.

Quick question.  So how did Covid get into all those homes in the first place?  Spontaneous generation?  Or do you mean "home" in the same way as "The United States of America is my home"?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Let me check Reddit and get back to you.


Parler is a better option for you.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> I guess now we know how anti-vaxxers/maskers deny peer reviewed studies.
> 
> Quick question.  So how did Covid get into all those homes in the first place?  Spontaneous generation?  Or do you mean "home" in the same way as "The United States of America is my home"?


Speaking of peer-reviewed studies, do you and @espola shave each other's backs and share a tanning bed?


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Speaking of peer-reviewed studies, do you and @espola shave each other's backs and share a tanning bed?


Ok, so now we've got crush, a former UFC announcer, white nationalists, a convicted Capitol stormer and homophobes lined up in the same anti-vax/mask crusade. I am so surprised.  How are you feeling about your friends Watfly, soccersc and grace t(he unemployed)?


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Okay...sure anyone can come up with some sort of study that tries to get as close as possible to calculate it accurately...but there are way way too many variables in transmission to get truly valid study
> 
> Fact is that most transmission takes place in the home


Ok.  Most transmission takes place in the home.  So compare in home transmission rates between vaccinated, unvaccinated, and partially vaccinated households.

In case you‘re wondering, someone already did the study.  Turns out, the vaccine reduces transmission rates, just like the biology would predict:









						Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
					

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...



					www.thelancet.com
				




Clearly it is not impossible to calculate.  They did calculate it, and it passed peer review.

Which leaves you in the position of arguing “Yes, but that study isn’t actually valid.  I am a person on a soccer forum, and that’s just a peer reviewed study in Lancet with multiple citations.  They don’t know as much as I do.”


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Ok.  Most transmission takes place in the home.  So compare in home transmission rates between vaccinated, unvaccinated, and partially vaccinated households.
> 
> In case you‘re wondering, someone already did the study.  Turns out, the vaccine reduces transmission rates, just like the biology would predict:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly it is not impossible to calculate.  They did calculate it, and it passed peer review.
> 
> Which leaves you in the position of arguing “Yes, but that study isn’t actually valid.  I am a person on a soccer forum, and that’s just a peer reviewed study in Lancet with multiple citations.  They don’t know as much as I do.”


Nice try, but using a study from 2020 and the Delta variant isn't relatable in the least to Omicron! Try again

a study from UC Davis in 2021 showing viral loads to be the same....okay next









						Viral Loads Similar Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People
					

A new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant...




					www.ucdavis.edu


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Ok, so now we've got crush, a former UFC announcer, white nationalists, a convicted Capitol stormer and homophobes lined up in the same anti-vax/mask crusade. I am so surprised.  How are you feeling about your friends Watfly, soccersc and grace t(he unemployed)?


I'll take that as a yes.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Ok.  Most transmission takes place in the home.  So compare in home transmission rates between vaccinated, unvaccinated, and partially vaccinated households.
> 
> In case you‘re wondering, someone already did the study.  Turns out, the vaccine reduces transmission rates, just like the biology would predict:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly it is not impossible to calculate.  They did calculate it, and it passed peer review.
> 
> Which leaves you in the position of arguing “Yes, but that study isn’t actually valid.  I am a person on a soccer forum, and that’s just a peer reviewed study in Lancet with multiple citations.  They don’t know as much as I do.”


Peer review is over-rated, right soccersc?  It's just "anyone can come up with some sort of study that tries to get as close as possible to calculate it accurately..." Anyway, all those scientists "shave each other's backs and share a tanning bed" like your buddy says right soccersc? Between him and crush you have some really great people on your side.  You're a viking helmet away from some real credibility.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Peer review is over-rated, right soccersc?  It's just "anyone can come up with some sort of study that tries to get as close as possible to calculate it accurately..." Anyway, all those scientists "shave each other's backs and share a tanning bed" like your buddy says right soccersc? Between him and crush you have some really great people on your side.  You're a viking helmet away from some real credibility.


I like your @dad4  handle better than your @GoldenGate.... when you are @dad4 at least you speak with some intelligence


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Nice try, but using a study from 2020 and the Delta variant isn't relatable in the least to Omicron! Try again
> 
> a study from UC Davis in 2021 showing viral loads to be the same....okay next
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viral Loads Similar Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People
> 
> 
> A new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ucdavis.edu


Uh, wow.  I think you might be misunderstanding what words mean.  Let's quote a few sentences out of your article.

- "Vaccines have been shown to be highly effective in preventing severe disease, hospitalization and death from COVID-19". 

- "The findings underscore the continuing need for masking and regular testing alongside vaccination."

- "This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with [Covid], or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus".

- "It's very important to get vaccinated....Mask-wearing and regular testing remain important, especially in areas of high prevalence."

How does this article help your anti-vax/anti-mask agenda again?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Ok.  Most transmission takes place in the home.  So compare in home transmission rates between vaccinated, unvaccinated, and partially vaccinated households.
> 
> In case you‘re wondering, someone already did the study.  Turns out, the vaccine reduces transmission rates, just like the biology would predict:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly it is not impossible to calculate.  They did calculate it, and it passed peer review.
> 
> Which leaves you in the position of arguing “Yes, but that study isn’t actually valid.  I am a person on a soccer forum, and that’s just a peer reviewed study in Lancet with multiple citations.  They don’t know as much as I do.”


and by the way, your review actually agrees with me... *"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts." * 

So one member of the family gets it from 1 unvaccinated person and then that vaccinated person goes home and spreads it to their family of 5...well, there you go...that is why trying to decipher how it is transmitted makes no sense...too many variable like I was telling you in the first place


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, wow.  I think you might be misunderstanding what words mean.  Let's quote a few sentences out of your article.
> 
> - "Vaccines have been shown to be highly effective in preventing severe disease, hospitalization and death from COVID-19".
> 
> - "The findings underscore the continuing need for masking and regular testing alongside vaccination."
> 
> - "This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with [Covid], or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus".
> 
> - "It's very important to get vaccinated....Mask-wearing and regular testing remain important, especially in areas of high prevalence."
> 
> How does this article help your anti-vax/anti-mask agenda again?


You are changing the argument or more likely you forgot....stay off the gonga for a minute....I never said vaccinations don't help....your comprehension and retention is getting worse by the day...I know it is legal but it is affecting you in a bad way. 

I will refresh your memory...@dad4 was saying you could calculate the transmission rate of unvaccinated and vaccinated...I said it is too difficult to get an accurate measure of transmission between the two groups. 

You might want to pause on responding until you have read that a couple times to make sure you really understand what we are talking about so you don't write anymore irrelevant post


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> and by the way, your review actually agrees with me... *"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts." *
> 
> So one member of the family gets it from 1 unvaccinated person and then that vaccinated person goes home and spreads it to their family of 5...well, there you go...that is why trying to decipher how it is transmitted makes no sense...too many variable like I was telling you in the first place


Wow, you lost the forest for the trees so badly that you apparently hit a proverbial oak branch hard enough to suffer traumatic brain injury.  Do you even realize that you went down a rabbit hole that started with you claiming that wearing masks doesn't help avoid Covid transmission, and has now ended with you citing articles about how important it is to wear masks because transmission is not significantly impacted by vaccination?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, you lost the forest for the trees so badly that you apparently hit a proverbial oak branch hard enough to suffer traumatic brain injury.  Do you even realize that you went down a rabbit hole that started with you claiming that wearing masks doesn't help avoid Covid transmission, and has now ended with you citing articles about how important it is to wear masks because transmission is not significantly impacted by vaccination?


LOL...hahaha...take a minute and read before another ripe...hahaha....I never have claimed anything about a mast...lol...and the article I sighted was from your alias @dad4 haha...maybe try to stay on one alias because you are getting confused between the two.

Once again, the argument is about how Covid spread between the vaccinated and unvaccinated...the problem is you can't find any data to support the fact that it can't be differentiated.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You are changing the argument or more likely you forgot....stay off the gonga for a minute....I never said vaccinations don't help....your comprehension and retention is getting worse by the day...I know it is legal but it is affecting you in a bad way.
> 
> I will refresh your memory...@dad4 was saying you could calculate the transmission rate of unvaccinated and vaccinated...I said it is too difficult to get an accurate measure of transmission between the two groups.
> 
> You might want to pause on responding until you have read that a couple times to make sure you really understand what we are talking about so you don't write anymore irrelevant post


No, you started with your snowflake diatribe about how masks don't help reduce transmission rates and therefore they should not be required in schools because your emotionally feeble children can't handle wearing masks and they don't help anyway.  But here you are now citing an article for the exact opposite because you completely lost the plot. So, let's start from the beginning.  Can you tell me why the article you just cited is completely wrong, except for one thing you don't want it to be wrong again?  You're a believe in science dim sum?


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> and by the way, your review actually agrees with me... *"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts." *
> 
> So one member of the family gets it from 1 unvaccinated person and then that vaccinated person goes home and spreads it to their family of 5...well, there you go...that is why trying to decipher how it is transmitted makes no sense...too many variable like I was telling you in the first place


Sure.  Same peak load, sustained for a shorter period.  Both claims are quantified in the study.  

How does that support your claim?  You were saying it is impossible to estimate.  It’s not impossible at all.  They just did it.  Not only did they demonstrate that the vaccine reduces transmission, they also quantified the size and timing of the effect.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Same peak load, sustained for a shorter period.  Both claims are quantified in the study.
> 
> How does that support your claim?  You were saying it is impossible to estimate.  It’s not impossible at all.  They just did it.  Not only did they demonstrate that the vaccine reduces transmission, they also quantified the size and timing of the effect.


Of course you can estimate, but how accurate is that really.  Then you start getting into how many vaccinated people actually test if they are asymptotic, but yet those people can still spread the disease... or where did they actually get it in the first place because who really knows in most cases...and finally, with Omicron, it all changed because it was spread so easily between all people...that is why it becomes so difficult to differentiate if it was passed on by vaccinated or unvaccinated

Do you have any data showing how Omicron was spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> LOL...hahaha...take a minute and read before another ripe...hahaha....I never have claimed anything about a mast...lol...and the article I sighted was from your alias @dad4 haha...maybe try to stay on one alias because you are getting confused between the two.
> 
> Once again, the argument is about how Covid spread between the vaccinated and unvaccinated...the problem is you can't find any data to support the fact that it can't be differentiated.


No, your argument was that your children are emotionally too soft to wear masks, but they shouldn't have to wear them anyway because they don't help.  Go look at your anti-mask post nos. 13,537, 13545, 13,546, 13,552, 13,554, 13,560, 13,563, 13,575, and 13,576.

I do agree with you to the extent that your best play is to try to avoid talking about your anti-mask agenda again until people hopefully forget that you actually cited an article that is the exact opposite of your position.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> No, you started with your snowflake diatribe about how masks don't help reduce transmission rates and therefore they should not be required in schools because your emotionally feeble children can't handle wearing masks and they don't help anyway.  But here you are now citing an article for the exact opposite because you completely lost the plot. So, let's start from the beginning.  Can you tell me why the article you just cited is completely wrong, except for one thing you don't want it to be wrong again?  You're a believe in science dim sum?


You're a funny guy, but you keep me entertained...show me where I said mask don't help reduce transmission...let me help you, I never said that...lol...so good luck finding it!  Anyway, what I did say was kids are affected by wearing mask socially and emotionally.  I then said you have no idea about kids because you don't have any, so it is probably hard for you to understand how kids are being affected...but try and deflect, it is what you do


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Of course you can estimate, but how accurate is that really.  Then you start getting into how many vaccinated people actually test if they are asymptotic, but yet those people can still spread the disease... or where did they actually get it in the first place because who really knows in most cases...and finally, with Omicron, it all changed because it was spread so easily between all people...that is why it becomes so difficult to differentiate if it was passed on by vaccinated or unvaccinated
> 
> Do you have any data showing how Omicron was spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated?


How accurate?  Accurate enough to get published in a well respected peer reviewed journal, then cited by other researchers in the field.  You can read the paper for the confidence interval if you need it.

Now, look at what you have.  Repeating, for the 27th time, the fact that peak viral loads are the same between vax and unvax patients.  Then, when someone mentions duration or probability of infection, you pretend to be unable to read that half of the sentence.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Of course you can estimate, but how accurate is that really.  Then you start getting into how many vaccinated people actually test if they are asymptotic, but yet those people can still spread the disease... or where did they actually get it in the first place because who really knows in most cases...and finally, with Omicron, it all changed because it was spread so easily between all people...that is why it becomes so difficult to differentiate if it was passed on by vaccinated or unvaccinated
> 
> Do you have any data showing how Omicron was spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated?


Uh, you're the one who cited the 2021 article to support your theory.  Now you're telling us your study that you cited is not reliable because everything has changed?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> How accurate?  Accurate enough to get published in a well respected peer reviewed journal, then cited by other researchers in the field.  You can read the paper for the confidence interval if you need it.
> 
> Now, look at what you have.  Repeating, for the 27th time, the fact that peak viral loads are the same between vax and unvax patients.  Then, when someone mentions duration or probability of infection, you pretend to be unable to read that half of the sentence.


Please answer the question! Stay focused! 
During Omicron what was the difference in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated? 
Let me know when you find something, because you wont


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You're a funny guy, but you keep me entertained...show me where I said mask don't help reduce transmission...let me help you, I never said that...lol...so good luck finding it!  Anyway, what I did say was kids are affected by wearing mask socially and emotionally.  I then said you have no idea about kids because you don't have any, so it is probably hard for you to understand how kids are being affected...but try and deflect, it is what you do


So you agree that wearing masks significantly reduces transmission rates and therefore Grace T(he unemployed) is an idiot?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, you're the one who cited the 2021 article to support your theory.  Now you're telling us your study that you cited is not reliable because everything has changed?


Sometimes I have to remember I might be moving too fast for you...puff puff...That was an article explaining the Delta variant, and how viral loads are similar, the same conclusion was found in the article @dad4 posted.  If viral loads are similar and Omicron spreads more rapidly and goes through vaccinated faster would it not be difficult to determine where it came from or where you contracted the disease? If you are unable to determine how you contracted the virus, how do you determine who you got it from?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> So you agree that wearing masks significantly reduces transmission rates and therefore Grace T(he unemployed) is an idiot?


I don't know if I would say significant, but I really don't care about mask wearing.  What I do care about is that it is affecting kids in a negative way and they are in no danger of hospitalization or dieing from the disease.  And as you have so clearly stated, those that are vaccinated have little risk of dying or getting hospitalized so let the kids be free.  

But then again you thought it was a good idea to keep kids at home for a year and a half....now there are so many papers documenting how bad that was for kids academically and socially.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Please answer the question! Stay focused!
> During Omicron what was the difference in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated?
> Let me know when you find something, because you wont


I’m not your research assistant.  If you want to know the best current estimates for vaccinated transmission of omicron, go spend some time on pubmed.

You made the bogus claim that it is unknowable and impossible to estimate.  I gave you a link to a study that shows how they do estimate it.

That’s the limit of my contribution.  You made a bogus claim, and I shot it down.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> I don't know if I would say significant, but I really don't care about mask wearing.  What I do care about is that it is affecting kids in a negative way and they are in no danger of hospitalization or dieing from the disease.  And as you have so clearly stated, those that are vaccinated have little risk of dying or getting hospitalized so let the kids be free.
> 
> But then again you thought it was a good idea to keep kids at home for a year and a half....now there are so many papers documenting how bad that was for kids academically and socially.


I get it.  You're ok killing adult teachers, admin stafff, coaches and students with serious health conditions, plus everyone they go home to at night (where you say it is "primarily spread"), because your children are too emotionally fragile to wear masks at school.  It's a trade off, right? Masks do help avoid getting people killed, but that's the price of freedom?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I’m not your research assistant.  If you want to know the best current estimates for vaccinated transmission of omicron, go spend some time on pubmed.
> 
> You made the bogus claim that it is unknowable and impossible to estimate.  I gave you a link to a study that shows how they do estimate it.
> 
> That’s the limit of my contribution.  You made a bogus claim, and I shot it down.


Wrong...nice try though!  There are no studies that can quantify the difference because it is impossible! If there were studie,s they would show up when doing a search, like all the other studies you have posted! The fact is it is not possible to differentiate how a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person spread the disease, end of story.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I get it.  You're ok killing adult teachers, admin stafff, coaches and students with serious health conditions, plus everyone they go home to at night (where you say it is "primarily spread"), because your children are too emotionally fragile to wear masks at school.  It's a trade off, right? Masks do help avoid getting people killed, but that's the price of freedom?


You have already stated that wearing a mask helps prevent getting covid and there is a tremendous amount of research that shows how effective vaccination is against hospitalization and death.  So what's the problem? Do you not believe in the evidence and research?


----------



## Desert Hound

A pointless exercise. Kicking the can down the road.

_“New Zealand went absolutely bonkers over Covid. Sure, the average age of victims was almost (or over) 80, but instead of locking down the vulnerable and letting everyone else get natural immunity, they locked everything down for 2 years and then basically made it impossible to leave your home if you didn’t inject yourself with an experimental vax that would become ineffective in less than a year. New Zealand’s Prime Minister was a prime example of why Karens should never, ever be put in charge of a nation…now that they did all that, their Covid levels are through the roof, even though most of them are triple- or quadruple-vaxxed.”_

Must be those bars and restaurants at fault...


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> A pointless exercise. Kicking the can down the road.
> 
> _“New Zealand went absolutely bonkers over Covid. Sure, the average age of victims was almost (or over) 80, but instead of locking down the vulnerable and letting everyone else get natural immunity, they locked everything down for 2 years and then basically made it impossible to leave your home if you didn’t inject yourself with an experimental vax that would become ineffective in less than a year. New Zealand’s Prime Minister was a prime example of why Karens should never, ever be put in charge of a nation…now that they did all that, their Covid levels are through the roof, even though most of them are triple- or quadruple-vaxxed.”_
> 
> Must be those bars and restaurants at fault...
> 
> View attachment 13085


The Kiwis are such idiots.  They've had 65 people die of Covid-19 (13 people per million) so far.  Compare that to Arizona, with its 28,000 dead and 3,900 per million death rate.  Arizona has had more people die of Covid in one day than New Zealand has in more than two years. In fact, Arizona has averaged about 1/2 of New Zealand's entire death count every day for two years.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Wrong...nice try though!  There are no studies that can quantify the difference because it is impossible! If there were studie,s they would show up when doing a search, like all the other studies you have posted! The fact is it is not possible to differentiate how a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person spread the disease, end of story.


You need to get out of the Parler search browser.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> You need to get out of the Parler search browser.


Exactly!!! You got nothing. Just admit you were wrong and we can move on.  There is no science that shows different transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated…I know it kills you to admit because once you do, it becomes abundantly clear there is no real purpose to force people to get vaccinated


----------



## GoldenGate

Does anyone want to tell the prickly cactus man what has been the leading cause of death in AZ the last two years?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I get it.  You're ok killing adult teachers, admin stafff, coaches and students with serious health conditions, plus everyone they go home to at night (where you say it is "primarily spread"), because your children are too emotionally fragile to wear masks at school.  It's a trade off, right? Masks do help avoid getting people killed, but that's the price of freedom?


wait, no one is vaccinated?  did D come back? is there a new variant?  Are you mad at the CDC?


----------



## Desert Hound

New Pfizer data kills the case for universal child Covid vaccines
					

A recent study of the efficacy of Covid vaccines for children in New York state provides a striking reminder of how rarely children and adolescents are hospitalised when they get Covid. The study tracked vaccinated and unvaccinated children in New York state last December and January to measure...




					unherd.com


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> New Pfizer data kills the case for universal child Covid vaccines
> 
> 
> A recent study of the efficacy of Covid vaccines for children in New York state provides a striking reminder of how rarely children and adolescents are hospitalised when they get Covid. The study tracked vaccinated and unvaccinated children in New York state last December and January to measure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unherd.com


Do you idiots even read the studies, or just the misleading headlines from your alt-right propaganda website?  Care to explain this quote:

"vaccination of children 5-11 years was protective against severe disease and is recommended. These results highlight the potential need to study alternative vaccine dosing for children and the continued importance layered protections, including mask wearing, to prevent infection and transmission".

Not only does it affirm that vaccination remains important for kids, but it also addresses how important it is to wear masks.  Try again anti-vaxxer/masker. I think you'll need to go darker web than you already are.

Of course, you're the same clown who thinks New Zealand is doing a terrible job with Covid-19, although your state kills more people of Covid on most days than New Zealand has in two years.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Crazy.









						California officials raided preschool, interviewed 2-year-olds over mask policies
					

California state regulators conducted an investigation at a Southern California preschool and privately interviewed children as young as 2 without their parents’ consent about their masking practices.




					www.ktvu.com


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Do you idiots even read the studies, or just the misleading headlines from your alt-right propaganda website?  Care to explain this quote:
> 
> "vaccination of children 5-11 years was protective against severe disease and is recommended. These results highlight the potential need to study alternative vaccine dosing for children and the continued importance layered protections, including mask wearing, to prevent infection and transmission".
> 
> Not only does it affirm that vaccination remains important for kids, but it also addresses how important it is to wear masks.  Try again anti-vaxxer/masker. I think you'll need to go darker web than you already are.
> 
> Of course, you're the same clown who thinks New Zealand is doing a terrible job with Covid-19, although your state kills more people of Covid on most days than New Zealand has in two years.


We can all cherry pick:
"The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine is significantly less effective in children aged 5 to 11 than it is in older kids, a new study found, raising questions about the correct dose to give to the young"

But sure, it's so sciency to vaccinate healthy young children.  Makes so much sense.  Stick to your lathery AZ attacks, it suits you better.  Stay away from sciency things, you could hurt yourself.  You are still allowed to wear your mask, be happy about that.  Hopefully you are cinching down that N95 bad boy  nice and tight.  Cuz then it works.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

what-happened said:


> We can all cherry pick:
> "The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine is significantly less effective in children aged 5 to 11 than it is in older kids, a new study found, raising questions about the correct dose to give to the young"
> 
> But sure, it's so sciency to vaccinate healthy young children.  Makes so much sense.  Stick to your lathery AZ attacks, it suits you better.  Stay away from sciency things, you could hurt yourself.  You are still allowed to wear your mask, be happy about that.  Hopefully you are cinching down that N95 bad boy  nice and tight.  Cuz then it works.





what-happened said:


> We can all cherry pick:
> "The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine is significantly less effective in children aged 5 to 11 than it is in older kids, a new study found, raising questions about the correct dose to give to the young"
> 
> But sure, it's so sciency to vaccinate healthy young children.  Makes so much sense.  Stick to your lathery AZ attacks, it suits you better.  Stay away from sciency things, you could hurt yourself.  You are still allowed to wear your mask, be happy about that.  Hopefully you are cinching down that N95 bad boy  nice and tight.  Cuz then it works.


You were able to find GG’s quote in the article?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California officials raided preschool, interviewed 2-year-olds over mask policies
> 
> 
> California state regulators conducted an investigation at a Southern California preschool and privately interviewed children as young as 2 without their parents’ consent about their masking practices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ktvu.com


Thank god the state shut down this criminal who was trying to operate a illegal day care.  Maybe waterboarding two year old children was a bit excessive.  They did subject the little kiddos to torture and violate the Geneva Convention right?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

GG? Also crazy.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> We can all cherry pick:
> "The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine is significantly less effective in children aged 5 to 11 than it is in older kids, a new study found, raising questions about the correct dose to give to the young"
> 
> But sure, it's so sciency to vaccinate healthy young children.  Makes so much sense.  Stick to your lathery AZ attacks, it suits you better.  Stay away from sciency things, you could hurt yourself.  You are still allowed to wear your mask, be happy about that.  Hopefully you are cinching down that N95 bad boy  nice and tight.  Cuz then it works.


Uh, even your quote supports vaccination.  It's just a matter of how much dosage.  The study said pretty clearly that it is "sciency" to vaccinate healthy young children.  

Your better approach to denying what words mean is to say it hasn't been peer reviewed.  That seems to be the standard approach when all you anti-vaxxers/maskers need to walk back every medical study you misrepresent because you lack the brainpower to read them.   

I'm also happy to trash the shit state of AZ too since you have no defense for that either.  You guys haven't blamed illegal aliens for killing everyone in a couple days, maybe go back to that.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, even your quote supports vaccination.  It's just a matter of how much dosage.  The study said pretty clearly that it is "sciency" to vaccinate healthy young children.
> 
> Your better approach to denying what words mean is to say it hasn't been peer reviewed.  That seems to be the standard approach when all you anti-vaxxers/maskers need to walk back every medical study you misrepresent because you lack the brainpower to read them.
> 
> I'm also happy to trash the shit state of AZ too since you have no defense for that either.  You guys haven't blamed illegal aliens for killing everyone in a couple days, maybe go back to that.


Yep, sciency to vaccinate healthy children.  So sciency.  The insults are cute though. anit vax/anti mask?  who's that?


----------



## what-happened

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You were able to find GG’s quote in the article?


nope..but don't mind GG...just lonely I suppose.  likes to lash out to attract attention.


----------



## NorCalDad

I think GG is on a roll.  It's pretty amusing watching him destroy all your arguments.  This popcorn is pretty tasty


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> I think GG is on a roll.  It's pretty amusing watching him destroy all your arguments.  This popcorn is pretty tasty


... I'd say someone needs a life.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ... I'd say someone needs a life.


Looks like you're reading the same forums I am....maybe you have shitty popcorn...


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> They were just wrong on pretty much everything.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501067734796279808


Funny how in two tweets it goes from "quasi-experimental" to "study".


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> and by the way, your review actually agrees with me... *"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts." *
> 
> So one member of the family gets it from 1 unvaccinated person and then that vaccinated person goes home and spreads it to their family of 5...well, there you go...that is why trying to decipher how it is transmitted makes no sense...too many variable like I was telling you in the first place


WTF?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> Please answer the question! Stay focused!
> During Omicron what was the difference in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated?
> Let me know when you find something, because you wont


It was posted on this very thread several times.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

But why not one more?  Here's the bend that vaxx or boost put on omicron as it went through LA.  Solid line, no vaxx.  Thick dash, 2X.  Thin dash, boost. Very similar to what was seen in NYC or UK. There's some antigenic drift, sure.  But not the "immune escape" that was the initial worry with omicron.  Let's hope there's no more waves before Cov2 goes into hiding for a bit.  The more waves, the more likely we are to see selection for real immune escape.  That would suck. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7105e1.htm


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ... I'd say someone needs a life.


Would that be those that dribble around with misinformation or the one that slam dunks the truth on them?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> But why not one more?  Here's the bend that vaxx or boost put on omicron as it went through LA.  Solid line, no vaxx.  Thick dash, 2X.  Thin dash, boost. Very similar to what was seen in NYC or UK. There's some antigenic drift, sure.  But not the "immune escape" that was the initial worry with omicron.  Let's hope there's no more waves before Cov2 goes into hiding for a bit.  The more waves, the more likely we are to see selection for real immune escape.  That would suck. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7105e1.htm
> 
> View attachment 13089


Do they not show these things on newswax, oan or faux? Does the infowars guy talk about it in between selling male enhancement supplements?


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ... I'd say someone needs a life.


And your life is to hang out at a youth soccer forum misrepresenting what medical studies say.  And constantly whining about how your children are so mentally feeble that wearing a mask at school is likely to cause them to slash their wrists?  Do you think your children's emotional fragility is genetic or learned behavior?


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I think GG is on a roll.  It's pretty amusing watching him destroy all your arguments.  This popcorn is pretty tasty


Man, what's in your water up north?  Is some of that Humboldt salad leeching into your drinking water?  Can you bottle some of that up and send it south, we get that nasty Colorado River water here in San Diego.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Man, what's in your water up north?  Is some of that Humboldt salad leeching into your drinking water?  Can you bottle some of that up and send it south, we get that nasty Colorado River water here in San Diego.


 We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.

More seriously, there is no scientific support for transmission equality between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.   A few loons here keep raising their talking points, and keep getting rebutted.

It’s the same thing every time.  An anti-vax person will say “but viral loads are equal if you get it”, never once remembering that a vaccinated person is less likely to get covid in the first place.  (Evil Goalie’s chart in post 13,6745, among others.)

At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.
> 
> More seriously, there is no scientific support for transmission equality between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.   A few loons here keep raising their talking points, and keep getting rebutted.
> 
> It’s the same thing every time.  An anti-vax person will say “but viral loads are equal if you get it”, never once remembering that a vaccinated person is less likely to get covid in the first place.  (Evil Goalie’s chart in post 13,6745, among others.)
> 
> At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.


I will just say this.  It's hard not to trust our eyes.  At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection.  I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon.  I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart).  5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days.  The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas.  Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself.  BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive.  My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game.  Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted.  None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.

The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread.  To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality.  Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases.  Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.

My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.


In fairness, he does this in every post regardless of the topic.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.


I was thinking "Bay Area Bong Water", we put everything else in water, why not?  Maybe its all in the marketing.  "Woke Water infused with Cannabis" does sound more appealing.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.
> 
> More seriously, there is no scientific support for transmission equality between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.   A few loons here keep raising their talking points, and keep getting rebutted.
> 
> It’s the same thing every time.  An anti-vax person will say “but viral loads are equal if you get it”, never once remembering that a vaccinated person is less likely to get covid in the first place.  (Evil Goalie’s chart in post 13,6745, among others.)
> 
> At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.


The alt right crowd can't handle it when others use their tactic of insulting people against them.  It's no wonder their snowflakey children are too emotionally feeble to wear masks at school.

You do a disservice to everyone by trying to have honest conversation with people who are not willing to engage in honest conversation.  It only gives them and others the impression that their beliefs and opinions are anything more than an absolute embarrassment and a joke.  In the last few days you have seen: (1)  the self-proclaimed "serious legal scholar" Grace T. cite a twitter post to support her anti-mask agenda, although the attached study attached related to the unique situation in Catalonia, Spain and, more importantly, acknowledged two American studies (which she blithely ignores of course) about America's situation which show that wearing masks substantially reduces transmission here; (2) clown boy soccersc citing an article he claims shows vaccines aren't important in schools, although the article itself says exactly the opposite (to which he rationalizes that his inability to understand what words mean is "cherry picking"), and although he ignores (yet again) your point and the fact that the study also undermines his anti-mask position (actual cherry picking in other words); (3) desert cactus claiming NZ is doing a terrible job with Covid-19 while AZ is going bigly great with policies that kill more people of Covid on a typical day than NZ has had die of Covid in two freakin' years; (4) multiple anti-vaxxers/maskers and conspiracy theorists minimizing studies that establish Covid-19 was not created in a Wuhan lab to reduce population, because they haven't been "peer reviewed", but who then turn around and cite twitter and Tik tok instead; (5) their blatantly racist anti-vax/mask friend claiming in another thread that the U.S. has 27 super, duper secret biological weapons plants in the Ukraine where they're also hiding Hillary's emails about her secret lasagna recipe; and (6) all of them conveniently ignoring their biggest anti-vax/mask proponents crush and the racist, who remind everyone daily which side has the whackadoos.

Some day you will understand that you can't reason with people like this.  Humiliating them is the only way to get them to take off their viking hats and face paint, and resign themselves to staying in their lane, which is the (intellectually) slow one.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I will just say this.  It's hard not to trust our eyes.  At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection.  I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon.  I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart).  5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days.  The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas.  Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself.  BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive.  My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game.  Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted.  None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.
> 
> The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread.  To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality.  Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases.  Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.
> 
> My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.


Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue.  Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity.  I'm prior immunity+boosted.  I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line).  Kiddos did not get sick.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue.  Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity.  I'm prior immunity+boosted.  I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line).  Kiddos did not get sick.


My kids were double vaxxed but not boosted.  One colleagues two kids were unvaxxed, but prior immunity.  Another had an unvaxxed toddler.  Another had an unvaxxed toddler and young teen.  None of them either got it, or showed symptoms.  All them tested negative except for the toddlers who weren't tested.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue.  Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity.  I'm prior immunity+boosted.  I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line).  Kiddos did not get sick.


"PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line" is the most Graceful statement she has ever posted.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> My kids were double vaxxed but not boosted.  One colleagues two kids were unvaxxed, but prior immunity.  Another had an unvaxxed toddler.  Another had an unvaxxed toddler and young teen.  None of them either got it, or showed symptoms.  All them tested negative except for the toddlers who weren't tested.





watfly said:


> I will just say this.  It's hard not to trust our eyes.  At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection.  I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon.  I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart).  5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days.  The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas.  Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself.  BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive.  My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game.  Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted.  None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.
> 
> The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread.  To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality.  Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases.  Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.
> 
> My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.


Some quick questions.

1. What is one standard deviation between your one anecdotal experience and 330 million Americans?  I'm trying to quantify the accuracy of your one experience and every time I run the numbers, it comes out "none at all". I want to make sure my math is right, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.

2. Did you include the fact that your two double vaxxed kids did not get Covid, and therefore did not spread it at school, when you reached your "scientific" conclusion that vaccinated students are equally likely to spread it at school as unvaccinated ones?  Or are you one of the anti-vaxxers/maskers who claim that schools are a "safe space" from Covid and is impossible to spread there, so that's your reason kids shouldn't get vaccinated?

3. When you admit that vaccination does provide some limited protection against infection, but not meaningful protection against community spread, I want to make sure I understand what you mean.  I think what you're trying to tell people is to not give two s**ts about the people around them because they'll just get it from someone else anyway. So even if getting vaccinated might have kept someone from getting infected and then giving it to someone else close to them who dies from it, that person would have just gotten it eventually anyway from someone else and then died. Right?  It's fine to be the one who gives a deadly disease to your co-workers, classmates, family and others because a million people are gonna die anyway, more or less, so why not make it include people you know?

4. Can you please quantify for me the exact "limited protection" against infection that vaccines provide?  2%? 10%? 20% Where is the study that helped you reach this conclusion, or did you just make some shit up based on your one anecdotal experience upon which to conclude that getting vaccinated is pointless for helping keeping the people around you alive?


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> "PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line" is the most Graceful statement she has ever posted.


Yes, her vaccinated kids not getting Covid despite being exposed to it is very persuasive evidence that vaccines don't help reduce spread. Based on what Watfly says, who cares anyway if anyone gets vaccinated or wears masks in schools?  If it's not unvaccinated Grace who kills the person next to her by giving them Covid, someone else will do it to them eventually, right? We anti-vaxxers can wash our hands of responsibility for the health and safety of the people around us because a million people will die anyway, more or less.  It's no big deal if the reduction in infection rates (which Watfly admits exists) results in me not getting infected and then transmitting it to someone who then dies, because f**k them they had it coming eventually from someone else, so it's everyone's fault but mine.  I can't stop community spread in America all by myself, so I may as well not get vaccinated or wear masks and get to work on killing those around me or, if I only hang out with young healthy people, their friends and family.


----------



## watfly

This provides a little window into cases of vaccinated vs unvaccinated.  Not equal but the vaccinated get infected at a material rate.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Some quick questions.
> 
> 1. What is one standard deviation between your one anecdotal experience and 330 million Americans?  I'm trying to quantify the accuracy of your one experience and every time I run the numbers, it comes out "none at all". I want to make sure my math is right, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.
> 
> 2. Did you include the fact that your two double vaxxed kids did not get Covid, and therefore did not spread it at school, when you reached your "scientific" conclusion that vaccinated students are equally likely to spread it at school as unvaccinated ones?  Or are you one of the anti-vaxxers/maskers who claim that schools are a "safe space" from Covid and is impossible to spread there, so that's your reason kids shouldn't get vaccinated?
> 
> 3. When you admit that vaccination does provide some limited protection against infection, but not meaningful protection against community spread, I want to make sure I understand what you mean.  I think what you're trying to tell people is to not give two s**ts about the people around them because they'll just get it from someone else anyway. So even if getting vaccinated might have kept someone from getting infected and then giving it to someone else close to them who dies from it, that person would have just gotten it eventually anyway from someone else and then died. Right?  It's fine to be the one who gives a deadly disease to your co-workers, classmates, family and others because a million people are gonna die anyway, more or less, so why not make it include people you know?
> 
> 4. Can you please quantify for me the exact "limited protection" against infection that vaccines provide?  2%? 10%? 20% Where is the study that helped you reach this conclusion, or did you just make some shit up based on your one anecdotal experience upon which to conclude that getting vaccinated is pointless for helping keeping the people around you alive?


I think your questions would be better addressed to someone that is actually anti-vax.  I'd try Reddit again, unless you can resurrect Crush/Ellejustus/SoccerHelper.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line" is the most Graceful statement she has ever posted.


It's easy if you think about it (but we all know you don't).  I took the PCR test when I was starting to feel sick....I took the rapid test a couple days later


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> It's easy if you think about it (but we all know you don't).  I took the PCR test when I was starting to feel sick....I took the rapid test a couple days later


"We all know you don't" is an unnecessary, dishonest, ad hominem attack.  That, however, does not qualify for the "Most Graceful Post" award, mainly because it exhibits lazy, thoughtless behavior.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> It's easy if you think about it (but we all know you don't).  I took the PCR test when I was starting to feel sick....I took the rapid test a couple days later


I kinda feel like the better place for you to start is by reading the actual studies before posting misleading tweets about what they say. It was a real hoot reading the study you claim says American kids should not wear masks, which actually cited two studies that said the exact opposite.  If you're going to claim that wearing masks is too much emotionally for snowflake children, at least find something more directly misleading, ok?

Making up what studies say does sound like a fun game though.  Here's one that says you and your anti-vax/mask friends can't walk and chew gum at the same time.  Effects of chewing gum on mood, learning, memory and performance of an intelligence test - PubMed (nih.gov)


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This provides a little window into cases of vaccinated vs unvaccinated.  Not equal but the vaccinated get infected at a material rate.
> 
> View attachment 13090


The breakdown by age is huge.  The reduction for 65+ is a out 3x as strong as the reduction for 12-17.

Send the link.  The super long time window makes it hard to see what is happening.    The window you chose mixes the very low case rate, moderate transmissibility numbers from June 2021 with the very high case rate, very high transmissibility numbers from January 2022.  They don’t really belong in the same sample.

If it just adds them all up, you get a misleading answer.    The early population had more unvaccinated people.  The late population has more vaccinated.  This means your unvaccinated average is weighted towards the low case rate 2021 summer numbers.  Conversely, your vaccinated average is weighted towards the Omicron surge.

Try the same thing with a 1-4 week window.  That also would let you see whether the omicron protection is much different from delta..


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The breakdown by age is huge.  The reduction for 65+ is a out 3x as strong as the reduction for 12-17.
> 
> Send the link.  The super long time window makes it hard to see what is happening.    The window you chose mixes the very low case rate, moderate transmissibility numbers from June 2021 with the very high case rate, very high transmissibility numbers from January 2022.  They don’t really belong in the same sample.
> 
> If it just adds them all up, you get a misleading answer.    The early population had more unvaccinated people.  The late population has more vaccinated.  This means your unvaccinated average is weighted towards the low case rate 2021 summer numbers.  Conversely, your vaccinated average is weighted towards the Omicron surge.
> 
> Try the same thing with a 1-4 week window.  That also would let you see whether the omicron protection is much different from delta..


I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's likely not the best data, that's why I said window.  It's only an indication that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, and not a conclusive study.  However, I haven't found (although I suspect there is) anywhere else where someone has attempted to make the comparison.  I agree that you have to break it out between pre-vax, post-vax, Alpha, Delta and Omicron time periods.  My suspicion is that for Omicron the rate of vaccinated infection is relatively high even in relation to the unvaccinated (its just that contagious).  You also have to believe that behavior outside of being vaccinated influences these numbers as well.  You would expect those at older ages (ie higher risk) who are vaccinated to also engage in less "risky" behavior as compared to those that are younger and vaccinated.

My point is that we have enough real world results to prove that its not good policy to discriminate against the unvaccinated, we only have evidence to support that its a really good idea for most adults to get vaccinated.  I think its poor form to make law based on hope and not evidence.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's likely not the best data, that's why I said window.  It's only an indication that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, and not a conclusive study.  However, I haven't found (although I suspect there is) anywhere else where someone has attempted to make the comparison.  I agree that you have to break it out between pre-vax, post-vax, Alpha, Delta and Omicron time periods.  My suspicion is that for Omicron the rate of vaccinated infection is relatively high even in relation to the unvaccinated (its just that contagious).  You also have to believe that behavior outside of being vaccinated influences these numbers as well.  You would expect those at older ages (ie higher risk) who are vaccinated to also engage in less "risky" behavior as compared to those that are younger and vaccinated.
> 
> My point is that we have enough real world results to prove that its not good policy to discriminate against the unvaccinated, we only have evidence to support that its a really good idea for most adults to get vaccinated.  I think its poor form to make law based on hope and not evidence.


The data is fine.  You just need to not mix time frames.

A narrow delta window gets you a consistent 65-80% reduction across age groups.  Kind of what team panic expected.

The narrow Omicron window puts it at a huge  (79%) reduction for 65+, and a moderate ( 30-35%) reduction for 18-49 and 50-64.  And almost no reduction at all for 12-17.  12%.  I chose 1/9-1/16.

I have no idea what is behind the age dependency.  It only shows up Omicron.  You have very robust protection for 65+, and a minimal impact on 12-17.  Same virus, same vaccine.  Completely different results.  

No sense in declaring a reason yet.  Could be medical (vax works differently in kids?), or it could be environmental (transmission is different in crowded indoor places like schools?).  Above my pay grade anyway.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Looks like you're reading the same forums I am....maybe you have shitty popcorn...


...sure, ok...beats a shitty life though.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> The alt right crowd can't handle it when others use their tactic of insulting people against them.  It's no wonder their snowflakey children are too emotionally feeble to wear masks at school.
> 
> You do a disservice to everyone by trying to have honest conversation with people who are not willing to engage in honest conversation.  It only gives them and others the impression that their beliefs and opinions are anything more than an absolute embarrassment and a joke.  In the last few days you have seen: (1)  the self-proclaimed "serious legal scholar" Grace T. cite a twitter post to support her anti-mask agenda, although the attached study attached related to the unique situation in Catalonia, Spain and, more importantly, acknowledged two American studies (which she blithely ignores of course) about America's situation which show that wearing masks substantially reduces transmission here; (2) clown boy soccersc citing an article he claims shows vaccines aren't important in schools, although the article itself says exactly the opposite (to which he rationalizes that his inability to understand what words mean is "cherry picking"), and although he ignores (yet again) your point and the fact that the study also undermines his anti-mask position (actual cherry picking in other words); (3) desert cactus claiming NZ is doing a terrible job with Covid-19 while AZ is going bigly great with policies that kill more people of Covid on a typical day than NZ has had die of Covid in two freakin' years; (4) multiple anti-vaxxers/maskers and conspiracy theorists minimizing studies that establish Covid-19 was not created in a Wuhan lab to reduce population, because they haven't been "peer reviewed", but who then turn around and cite twitter and Tik tok instead; (5) their blatantly racist anti-vax/mask friend claiming in another thread that the U.S. has 27 super, duper secret biological weapons plants in the Ukraine where they're also hiding Hillary's emails about her secret lasagna recipe; and (6) all of them conveniently ignoring their biggest anti-vax/mask proponents crush and the racist, who remind everyone daily which side has the whackadoos.
> 
> Some day you will understand that you can't reason with people like this.  Humiliating them is the only way to get them to take off their viking hats and face paint, and resign themselves to staying in their lane, which is the (intellectually) slow one.


Do you sit there and log off one account the nlog back on to the other to respond to yourself? or do you simply have two computers logged into both your accounts? Then you respond to your own post to get validation...lonely world you live in


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Do you sit there and log off one account the nlog back on to the other to respond to yourself? or do you simply have two computers logged into both your accounts? Then you respond to your own post to get validation...lonely world you live in


I understand why you and your friends don't want to talk about all the studies you cite to "support" the exact opposite of what they actually say.  It's pretty humiliating for sure.  I do like how you claimed that words don't mean what they mean because "cherry picking".  Again, I think you'll get a lot more traction from your fellow nutters if you stick to pulling pond scum out of deeper, darker parts of the web instead of trying to tell people that left means right and up means down.  Even the most brain addled of your kind can figure out what words mean if they ever chose to read them.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The data is fine.  You just need to not mix time frames.
> 
> A narrow delta window gets you a consistent 65-80% reduction across age groups.  Kind of what team panic expected.
> 
> The narrow Omicron window puts it at a huge  (79%) reduction for 65+, and a moderate ( 30-35%) reduction for 18-49 and 50-64.  And almost no reduction at all for 12-17.  12%.  I chose 1/9-1/16.
> 
> I have no idea what is behind the age dependency.  It only shows up Omicron.  You have very robust protection for 65+, and a minimal impact on 12-17.  Same virus, same vaccine.  Completely different results.
> 
> No sense in declaring a reason yet.  Could be medical (vax works differently in kids?), or it could be environmental (transmission is different in crowded indoor places like schools?).  Above my pay grade anyway.


I'm not sure I follow the math, but that's on me.  Nor do I believe breaking it out in time frames helps your argument.  Clearly not for Omicron. For adults I think it has to do in part with age associated behavior.  65+ aren't generally in the workplace.  19-49 are in the workplace and more likely to be out in public, but most of all, more likely to be living with more housemates (roommates, children etc).  Just way more points of exposure for that age group.  Children are the wild card.  Generally they are just less likely to get it overall, regardless of vaccination status.  None of this changes the fact that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, but I doubt its equal to the unvaccinated.

The reason I question the data, is because we all know that a lot of people tested negative (especially since Xmas) that didn't have any results recorded or reported.  I think cases are grossly undercounted for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.  If you believe the vaccination prevents serious, treatment required, issues then I would imagine that the vaccinated have the most underreported cases.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> I'm not sure I follow the math, but that's on me.  For adults I think it has to do in part with age associated behavior.  65+ aren't generally in the workplace.  19-49 are in the workplace and more likely to be out in public, but most of all, more likely to be living with more housemates (roommates, children etc).  Just way more points of exposure for that age group.  Children are the wild card.  Generally they are just less likely to get it overall, regardless of vaccination status.  None of this changes that fact that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, but I doubt its equal.
> 
> The reason I question the data, is because we all know that a lot of people tested negative (especially since Xmas) that didn't have any results recorded or reported.  I think cases are grossly overcounted for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.  If you believe the vaccination prevents serious, treatment required, issues then I would imagine that the vaccinated have the most underreported cases.


The reality doesn't jive with the models and graphs. I'm going with the reality.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> The reality doesn't jive with the models and graphs. I'm going with the reality.


But the studies Baldref.  You just can't believe your eyes.  You need someone smarter (or more emotional) than you to interpret reality for you.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I understand why you and your friends don't want to talk about all the studies you cite to "support" the exact opposite of what they actually say.  It's pretty humiliating for sure.  I do like how you claimed that words don't mean what they mean because "cherry picking".  Again, I think you'll get a lot more traction from your fellow nutters if you stick to pulling pond scum out of deeper, darker parts of the web instead of trying to tell people that left means right and up means down.  Even the most brain addled of your kind can figure out what words mean if they ever chose to read them.


okay buddy, how many different alias' do you really have @EOTL @dad4 @GoldenGate I am sure there is more...so defending your theories by responding to one of your own theories by a different alias, says something about you!!! I'm still waiting for your study regarding the spread of omicron, not some chart from the cdc...that is only calculated by those who are tested, usually in the hospital setting. Show me an actual case study, you won't find it.  Good luck though

I'll tell you what we do have case studies about...the vaccine is becoming less effective from Delta to Omicro to the next variant.  There are case studies about that


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm not sure I follow the math, but that's on me.  Nor do I believe breaking it out in time frames helps your argument.  Clearly not for Omicron. For adults I think it has to do in part with age associated behavior.  65+ aren't generally in the workplace.  19-49 are in the workplace and more likely to be out in public, but most of all, more likely to be living with more housemates (roommates, children etc).  Just way more points of exposure for that age group.  Children are the wild card.  Generally they are just less likely to get it overall, regardless of vaccination status.  None of this changes the fact that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, but I doubt its equal to the unvaccinated.
> 
> The reason I question the data, is because we all know that a lot of people tested negative (especially since Xmas) that didn't have any results recorded or reported.  I think cases are grossly undercounted for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.  If you believe the vaccination prevents serious, treatment required, issues then I would imagine that the vaccinated have the most underreported cases.


I didn’t break it out to support my argument.  I broke it out to understand it.   The original time frame mixed apples and machine parts.  You couldn’t understand anything from that.

If anything, the age dependency makes me doubt school vaccine mandates.  It’s one thing to mandate an 80-90% effective vaccine in order to protect the community.    That argument falls apart if it is 12%.   Not there yet, but more doubtful than I was.

If MN has mandatory school testing, then underreporting is a plausible explanation for the small reduction in school age cases.   For youth, you are measuring total cases.  For 50 year olds, you are measuring symptomatic cases.   The vaccine could be working the same in both groups, but our testing is measuring different things.

The 35% reduction to incoming transmission is completely consistent with your experience.  An hour in an enclosed conference room is apparently more than long enough to fill the room with aerosols and breathe them in.   And, given that peak viral loads are unchanged, you may just have had the bad luck to schedule your meeting on your most contagious day.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> okay buddy, how many different alias' do you really have @EOTL @dad4 @GoldenGate I am sure there is more...so defending your theories by responding to one of your own theories by a different alias, says something about you!!! I'm still waiting for your study regarding the spread of omicron, not some chart from the cdc...that is only calculated by those who are tested, usually in the hospital setting. Show me an actual case study, you won't find it.  Good luck though
> 
> I'll tell you what we do have case studies about...the vaccine is becoming less effective from Delta to Omicro to the next variant.  There are case studies about that


It’s simple.  The vaccine has tiny microchips that control yiur brain.  Both @GoldenGate and I are vaccinated, so our brains are controlled by the same space lasers.

@watfly got moderna, and that vaccine uses a different microchip.  His brain is being controlled by a different Pharma overlord.

It’s all so simple.  I’m kind of amazed you haven’t figured it out yet.  

Don’t worry.  The vaccine swat teams will be out soon, and then you’ll be one of us.  If you’re lucky, you get to go for a ride in a black helicopter!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I didn’t break it out to support my argument.  I broke it out to understand it.   The original time frame mixed apples and machine parts.  You couldn’t understand anything from that.
> 
> If anything, the age dependency makes me doubt school vaccine mandates.  It’s one thing to mandate an 80-90% effective vaccine in order to protect the community.    That argument falls apart if it is 12%.   Not there yet, but more doubtful than I was.
> 
> If MN has mandatory school testing, then underreporting is a plausible explanation for the small reduction in school age cases.   For youth, you are measuring total cases.  For 50 year olds, you are measuring symptomatic cases.   The vaccine could be working the same in both groups, but our testing is measuring different things.
> 
> The 35% reduction to incoming transmission is completely consistent with your experience.  An hour in an enclosed conference room is apparently more than long enough to fill the room with aerosols and breathe them in.   And, given that peak viral loads are unchanged, you may just have had the bad luck to schedule your meeting on your most contagious day.


I can buy 12% and 35% or thereabouts.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...sure, ok...beats a shitty life though.


Oh man...what a burn!


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> It’s simple.  The vaccine has tiny microchips that control yiur brain.  Both @GoldenGate and I are vaccinated, so our brains are controlled by the same space lasers.
> 
> @watfly got moderna, and that vaccine uses a different microchip.  His brain is being controlled by a different Pharma overlord.
> 
> It’s all so simple.  I’m kind of amazed you haven’t figured it out yet.
> 
> Don’t worry.  The vaccine swat teams will be out soon, and then you’ll be one of us.  If you’re lucky, you get to go for a ride in a black helicopter!


Have you found the case study yet? Crickets


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> Have you found the case study yet? Crickets


Not your research assistant.

Try evil goalie's chart.  It has half of what you need.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The alt right crowd can't handle it when others use their tactic of insulting people against them.  It's no wonder their snowflakey children are too emotionally feeble to wear masks at school.
> 
> You do a disservice to everyone by trying to have honest conversation with people who are not willing to engage in honest conversation.  It only gives them and others the impression that their beliefs and opinions are anything more than an absolute embarrassment and a joke.  In the last few days you have seen: (1)  the self-proclaimed "serious legal scholar" Grace T. cite a twitter post to support her anti-mask agenda, although the attached study attached related to the unique situation in Catalonia, Spain and, more importantly, acknowledged two American studies (which she blithely ignores of course) about America's situation which show that wearing masks substantially reduces transmission here; (2) clown boy soccersc citing an article he claims shows vaccines aren't important in schools, although the article itself says exactly the opposite (to which he rationalizes that his inability to understand what words mean is "cherry picking"), and although he ignores (yet again) your point and the fact that the study also undermines his anti-mask position (actual cherry picking in other words); (3) desert cactus claiming NZ is doing a terrible job with Covid-19 while AZ is going bigly great with policies that kill more people of Covid on a typical day than NZ has had die of Covid in two freakin' years; (4) multiple anti-vaxxers/maskers and conspiracy theorists minimizing studies that establish Covid-19 was not created in a Wuhan lab to reduce population, because they haven't been "peer reviewed", but who then turn around and cite twitter and Tik tok instead; (5) their blatantly racist anti-vax/mask friend claiming in another thread that the U.S. has 27 super, duper secret biological weapons plants in the Ukraine where they're also hiding Hillary's emails about her et lasagna recipe; and (6) all of them conveniently ignoring their biggest anti-vax/mask proponents crush and the racist, who remind everyone daily which side has the whackadoos.
> 
> Some day you will understand that you can't reason with people like this.  Humiliating them is the only way to get them to take off their viking hats and face paint, and resign themselves to staying in their lane, which is the (intellectually) slow one.


such a warrior.  glad you are on the front lines.


----------



## dad4

baldref said:


> The reality doesn't jive with the models and graphs. I'm going with the reality.


That is the difference between a scientist and someone looking for confirmation.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Not your research assistant.
> 
> Try evil goalie's chart.  It has half of what you need.


Don’t kid yourself..if you could find it you would have posted it.  I find it interesting that during Delta you could find multiple studies showing how the unvaccinated spread the virus at a much more rapid pace, they were actually calling it the virus of the unvaccinated.  But now, after Omicron, sidedly no case studies or research showing how unvaccinated and vaccinated spread the virus? Hmmm

They know they can’t post a study like that. If the transition rate is the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated they lose a big big arguement on mandated vaccination.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> But the studies Baldref.  You just can't believe your eyes.  You need someone smarter (or more emotional) than you to interpret reality for you.


You anti-vaxxers all live in opposite world.  In fact, relying on your anecdotal "evidence" instead of actual medical and scientific studies is the very definition of emotional no matter how much you claim the opposite. See: When poignant stories outweigh cold hard facts: A meta-analysis of the anecdotal bias - ScienceDirect .  Of course, morons like you completely ignore scientific studies based on your anecdotal "evidence", because it is the only place you can go to support the confirmation bias that you are looking for: Confirmation bias | Cram.

No one is surprised that the anti-vax/mask clown car crowd ignores studies and science because they're too emotional to understand what is happening, because that's who whiny Karens are.  It's what you do.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> That is the difference between a scientist and someone looking for confirmation.


I see you're still trying to reason with clowns.  How is that going for you? I mean, other than them just telling you they've now completely abandoned all studies relating to mask and vaccine mandates (not just the ones that haven't been peer reviewed) because they saw with their own eyes that their vaccinated and masked kids have gone to school and not gotten Covid-19.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I'm not sure I follow the math, but that's on me.  Nor do I believe breaking it out in time frames helps your argument.  Clearly not for Omicron. For adults I think it has to do in part with age associated behavior.  65+ aren't generally in the workplace.  19-49 are in the workplace and more likely to be out in public, but most of all, more likely to be living with more housemates (roommates, children etc).  Just way more points of exposure for that age group.  Children are the wild card.  Generally they are just less likely to get it overall, regardless of vaccination status.  None of this changes the fact that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, but I doubt its equal to the unvaccinated.
> 
> The reason I question the data, is because we all know that a lot of people tested negative (especially since Xmas) that didn't have any results recorded or reported.  I think cases are grossly undercounted for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.  If you believe the vaccination prevents serious, treatment required, issues then I would imagine that the vaccinated have the most underreported cases.


I see.  You disregard scientific studies because you "think" cases are grossly undercounted?  That sounds very compelling.  I do have a some quick questions about that.  You also said that you will rely on what you see with your own eyes, right?  So now you're telling us that you rely not only on what you see with your own eyes, but also what you don't see at all?  In other words, you just make up whatever the fuck you want and reach whatever ridiculous conclusion you want so long as it is the opposite of what peer reviewed scientific study concluded?  Unless the "scientific study" is a Tik tok that confirms your bias? What is one standard deviation from your anecdotal story and 330 million Americans anyway?

I do like your "scientific approach", so let's try it out. I have not seen a single student who has been fully vaccinated and wears their mask at school die of Covid, so they must work.   I have also not seen a single student slash their wrists because they were such a snowflake that wearing masks was too much for them, so it must be complete and utter b.s.  That settles that.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> You anti-vaxxers all live in opposite world.  In fact, relying on your anecdotal "evidence" instead of actual medical and scientific studies is the very definition of emotional no matter how much you claim the opposite. See: When poignant stories outweigh cold hard facts: A meta-analysis of the anecdotal bias - ScienceDirect .  Of course, morons like you completely ignore scientific studies based on your anecdotal "evidence", because it is the only place you can go to support the confirmation bias that you are looking for: Confirmation bias | Cram.
> 
> No one is surprised that the anti-vax/mask clown car crowd ignores studies and science because they're too emotional to understand what is happening, because that's who whiny Karens are.  It's what you do.


still can’t find a case study or any articles related to Covid transmission huh!? Are you just going on anecdotal evidence? I haven’t seen any proof that there is a difference in transmission rates between the two,can you not support your bias?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Don’t kid yourself..if you could find it you would have posted it.  I find it interesting that during Delta you could find multiple studies showing how the unvaccinated spread the virus at a much more rapid pace, they were actually calling it the virus of the unvaccinated.  But now, after Omicron, sidedly no case studies or research showing how unvaccinated and vaccinated spread the virus? Hmmm
> 
> They know they can’t post a study like that. If the transition rate is the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated they lose a big big arguement on mandated vaccination.


The first Omicron variant was detected three months ago in the US and there weren't enough cases and spread to even start a study until January. Yet here you are claiming two months later that it's perfectly fine to parade around unvaccinated and unmasked because there hasn't been a peer reviewed study in the mere two months that it even became possible to start conducting a study.  Honestly, you are about as stupid as they get. So please tell me the exact day that this study should have been completed and peer reviewed to meet your "rigorous" standards?  And how does the fact that a study hasn't been published in two months "prove" that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated?  I feel like you let someone repeatedly hit you over the head with an Easton brand baseball bat because there hasn't been a scientific study proving that those brands will also give you a concussion, so surely you'll be fine.  If there hasn't been a definitive study (which we know from your time here that you would disregard anyway because it does not fit your Karen-y emotional snowflake confirmation bias) yet to prove something is happening, it clearly isn't happening, right?  And you know that because you've seen with your own microscopic eyes how Omicron is spread, right?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> The first Omicron variant was detected three months ago in the US and there weren't enough cases and spread to even start a study until January. Yet here you are claiming two months later that it's perfectly fine to parade around unvaccinated and unmasked because there hasn't been a peer reviewed study in the mere two months that it even became possible to start conducting a study.  Honestly, you are about as stupid as they get. So please tell me the exact day that this study should have been completed and peer reviewed to meet your "rigorous" standards?  And how does the fact that a study hasn't been published in two months "prove" that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated?  I feel like you let someone repeatedly hit you over the head with an Easton brand baseball bat because there hasn't been a scientific study proving that those brands will also give you a concussion, so surely you'll be fine.  If there hasn't been a definitive study (which we know from your time here that you would disregard anyway because it does not fit your Karen-y emotional snowflake confirmation bias) yet to prove something is happening, it clearly isn't happening, right?  And you know that because you've seen with your own microscopic eyes how Omicron is spread, right?


You just make up dates and number whenever you want but you condemn others for how they perceive what is happening. How very Karen of you!! You are wrong about so many things in such a short port, it goes back to that poor education you have and your intellectual reasoning. The first Omicron case was the end of November, first of December, so you have bad math if you get months. December, January, February, and this is March, you aren’t very smart to get only 2 months later out of that…it sure didn’t take long for them to come out with Delta studies while Delta was spreading like crazy, but that fit the narrative and this doesn’t. Simple. Keep spinning, eventually you will get something right


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> The first Omicron variant was detected three months ago in the US and there weren't enough cases and spread to even start a study until January. Yet here you are claiming two months later that it's perfectly fine to parade around unvaccinated and unmasked because there hasn't been a peer reviewed study in the mere two months that it even became possible to start conducting a study.  Honestly, you are about as stupid as they get. So please tell me the exact day that this study should have been completed and peer reviewed to meet your "rigorous" standards?  And how does the fact that a study hasn't been published in two months "prove" that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated?  I feel like you let someone repeatedly hit you over the head with an Easton brand baseball bat because there hasn't been a scientific study proving that those brands will also give you a concussion, so surely you'll be fine.  If there hasn't been a definitive study (which we know from your time here that you would disregard anyway because it does not fit your Karen-y emotional snowflake confirmation bias) yet to prove something is happening, it clearly isn't happening, right?  And you know that because you've seen with your own microscopic eyes how Omicron is spread, right?


You know what even try to find a pre-print study…Good luck, it’s not there, or maybe it is and they pull it because it’s misinformation….like the data they tried to keep from you for 75 years until a judge said no…hmm, guess they don’t think you are smart enough to try and figure it out on your own, even they think you are stupid…lol

and I did a quick search to see how long it took for pre-print studies to come out after Delta…this study took from May and June and was printed the first of August…so how does your timeline work again? You really aren’t that bright, you do try though









						Delta’s rise is fuelled by rampant spread from people who feel fine
					

People infected with the Delta variant generally do not have COVID-19 symptoms until two days after they start shedding the coronavirus.




					www.nature.com


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You just make up dates and number whenever you want but you condemn others for how they perceive what is happening. How very Karen of you!! Uou are wrong about so many things in such a short email, it goes back to that poor education you have and your intellectual reasoning. The first Omicron case was the end of November, first of December, so you have bad math if you get months. December, January, February, and this is March, you aren’t very smart to get only 2 months later out of that…it sure didn’t take long for them to come out with Delta studies while Delta was spreading like crazy, but that fit the narrative and this doesn’t. Simple. Keep spinning, eventually you will get something right


Uh, two months ago from today was Jan 11.  Omicron did not become the dominant strain in the U.S. until late December.  It wasn't even possible to start a study to address the impact of vaccinations until 

But, yes, of course you will dispute how long two months ago was.  Do you always decide that the most reckless course of action is perfectly accepable until a definitive peer reviewed study has come out?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You know what even try to find a pre-print study…Good luck, it’s not there, or maybe it is and they pull it because it’s misinformation….like the data they tried to keep from you for 75 years until a judge said no…hmm, guess they don’t think you are smart enough to try and figure it out on your own, even they think you are stupid…lol
> 
> and I did a quick search to see how long it took for pre-print studies to come out after Delta…this study took from May and June and was printed the first of August…so how does your timeline work again? You really aren’t that bright, you do try though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta’s rise is fuelled by rampant spread from people who feel fine
> 
> 
> People infected with the Delta variant generally do not have COVID-19 symptoms until two days after they start shedding the coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


BTW dumbfuck, preliminary research has shown that vaccination has been shown to offer protection against contracting Omicron. 

Latest on Omicron Variant and COVID-19 Vaccine Protection | National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Three vaccine doses give 86% efficacy against Omicron variant (openaccessgovernment.org)
How Effective Are COVID-19 Vaccines Against Omicron? (healthline.com)
COVID-19 vaccines induce immune response to Omicron | National Institutes of Health (NIH)

If you read those articles (you won't), they say that scientists are still working on exactly how well the vaccines protect against infection.  But continue to ignore reality.  Surely, they are wrong because you saw with your own eyes that kids who got vaccinated and wear masks did not contract Omicron, so of course kids should do neither.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> BTW dumbfuck, preliminary research has shown that vaccination has been shown to offer protection against contracting Omicron.
> 
> Latest on Omicron Variant and COVID-19 Vaccine Protection | National Institutes of Health (NIH)
> Three vaccine doses give 86% efficacy against Omicron variant (openaccessgovernment.org)
> How Effective Are COVID-19 Vaccines Against Omicron? (healthline.com)
> COVID-19 vaccines induce immune response to Omicron | National Institutes of Health (NIH)
> 
> If you read those articles (you won't), they say that scientists are still working on exactly how well the vaccines protect against infection.  But continue to ignore reality.  Surely, they are wrong because you saw with your own eyes that kids who got vaccinated and wear masks did not contract Omicron, so of course kids should do neither.


I have to construals remind myself to make sure I go very slow so I don’t lose you. Nobody is disputing the fact of protection anyway…you can’t get your moth off thatbong long enough to even remember the argument. The dispute is between the spread of the virus between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? How many times do I have to reiterate that with you before you realize they will never be able to distinguish that and if they do, they will see that it is going to be similar transition rates or vaccinated transmit it at a higher rare because they are often more asymptomatic and don’t realize they are even spreading the virus. Can you follow that smart guy?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> You anti-vaxxers all live in opposite world.  In fact, relying on your anecdotal "evidence" instead of actual medical and scientific studies is the very definition of emotional no matter how much you claim the opposite. See: When poignant stories outweigh cold hard facts: A meta-analysis of the anecdotal bias - ScienceDirect .  Of course, morons like you completely ignore scientific studies based on your anecdotal "evidence", because it is the only place you can go to support the confirmation bias that you are looking for: Confirmation bias | Cram.
> 
> No one is surprised that the anti-vax/mask clown car crowd ignores studies and science because they're too emotional to understand what is happening, because that's who whiny Karens are.  It's what you do.


Hey when one reads it on Twitter (and it backs their already predetermined mindset) that means it passed the eye test.


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> I see you're still trying to reason with clowns.  How is that going for you? I mean, other than them just telling you they've now completely abandoned all studies relating to mask and vaccine mandates (not just the ones that haven't been peer reviewed) because they saw with their own eyes that their vaccinated and masked kids have gone to school and not gotten Covid-19.


Reasoning with clowns?  Yes.  Keeps me entertained.

People all over are inclined to believe their own confirmation bias instead of actually gathering data.  Nothing unique to this thread.  Just how people are.

I could ask you whether ECNL’s style of play causes added knee injuries and concussions.  You will say no, but there won’t be data behind it.  Confirmation bias, but no data gathering.  Same as the anti-vax loons, just a different topic.

Keep up the entertainment, and have a great day.


----------



## watfly

Not peer reviewed so don't get your knickers in a wad, but seems more consistent with reality.  This is not based on protection from hospitalization, but protection from infection.  Nobody is disputing that the vaccination provides significant protection against hospitalization, well that and Omicron has far milder symptoms.









						Vaccine Effectiveness In The Omicron Wave
					

The US Omicron wave peaked in mid-January at around 800,000 new cases per day — more than three times higher than the previously largest peak (around 240,000 cases per day), which occurred almost exactly one year earlier.




					www.forbes.com
				











						Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against Omicron or Delta infection
					

Background The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including among those who have received 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines, has increased substantially since Omicron was first identified in the province of Ontario, Canada.  Methods Applying the test-negative design to linked provincial data, we...




					www.medrxiv.org
				




_"An even more recent study (that has not yet been peer-reviewed) was specifically designed to measure vaccine effectiveness against Omicron. This study found that a full two-dose course of mRNA vaccines failed to provide any measurable protection against infection with Omicron and that boosting with a third dose of an mRNA vaccine increased effectiveness against transmission back up to only 37%."_


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Not peer reviewed so don't get your knickers in a wad, but seems more consistent with reality.  This is not based on protection from hospitalization, but protection from infection.  Nobody is disputing that the vaccination provides significant protection against hospitalization, well that and Omicron has far milder symptoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Effectiveness In The Omicron Wave
> 
> 
> The US Omicron wave peaked in mid-January at around 800,000 new cases per day — more than three times higher than the previously largest peak (around 240,000 cases per day), which occurred almost exactly one year earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against Omicron or Delta infection
> 
> 
> Background The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including among those who have received 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines, has increased substantially since Omicron was first identified in the province of Ontario, Canada.  Methods Applying the test-negative design to linked provincial data, we...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"An even more recent study (that has not yet been peer-reviewed) was specifically designed to measure vaccine effectiveness against Omicron. This study found that a full two-dose course of mRNA vaccines failed to provide any measurable protection against infection with Omicron and that boosting with a third dose of an mRNA vaccine increased effectiveness against transmission back up to only 37%."_


"Our results may be confounded by behaviours that we were unable to account for in our analyses. Further research is needed to examine protection against severe outcomes."


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Not peer reviewed so don't get your knickers in a wad, but seems more consistent with reality.  This is not based on protection from hospitalization, but protection from infection.  Nobody is disputing that the vaccination provides significant protection against hospitalization, well that and Omicron has far milder symptoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Effectiveness In The Omicron Wave
> 
> 
> The US Omicron wave peaked in mid-January at around 800,000 new cases per day — more than three times higher than the previously largest peak (around 240,000 cases per day), which occurred almost exactly one year earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against Omicron or Delta infection
> 
> 
> Background The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including among those who have received 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines, has increased substantially since Omicron was first identified in the province of Ontario, Canada.  Methods Applying the test-negative design to linked provincial data, we...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"An even more recent study (that has not yet been peer-reviewed) was specifically designed to measure vaccine effectiveness against Omicron. This study found that a full two-dose course of mRNA vaccines failed to provide any measurable protection against infection with Omicron and that boosting with a third dose of an mRNA vaccine increased effectiveness against transmission back up to only 37%."_


No real surprise.  They’ve been saying for a while now that against omicron the vaccines offer mild protection against infection, but robust protection against severe disease.  Just one more piece of evidence for that.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Not peer reviewed so don't get your knickers in a wad, but seems more consistent with reality.  This is not based on protection from hospitalization, but protection from infection.  Nobody is disputing that the vaccination provides significant protection against hospitalization, well that and Omicron has far milder symptoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Effectiveness In The Omicron Wave
> 
> 
> The US Omicron wave peaked in mid-January at around 800,000 new cases per day — more than three times higher than the previously largest peak (around 240,000 cases per day), which occurred almost exactly one year earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against Omicron or Delta infection
> 
> 
> Background The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including among those who have received 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines, has increased substantially since Omicron was first identified in the province of Ontario, Canada.  Methods Applying the test-negative design to linked provincial data, we...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"An even more recent study (that has not yet been peer-reviewed) was specifically designed to measure vaccine effectiveness against Omicron. This study found that a full two-dose course of mRNA vaccines failed to provide any measurable protection against infection with Omicron and that boosting with a third dose of an mRNA vaccine increased effectiveness against transmission back up to only 37%."_


My dad finally caught it. Despite being boosted, going around no where without an N95, and not really socializing except very rarely and outdoors and not during the relevant time period (we hadn't been around him in the relevant time period).  We are at a loss for where he might have caught it...the market (well then even those N95s don't help), a lab to get his blood drawn (someone real contagious must have crossed there), the dog??? (even though they say dogs don't transmit to humans).  So far only the sniffles on day 2 and no other symptoms (fingers crossed).


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> I have to construals remind myself to make sure I go very slow so I don’t lose you. Nobody is disputing the fact of protection anyway…you can’t get your moth off thatbong long enough to even remember the argument. The dispute is between the spread of the virus between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? How many times do I have to reiterate that with you before you realize they will never be able to distinguish that and if they do, they will see that it is going to be similar transition rates or vaccinated transmit it at a higher rare because they are often more asymptomatic and don’t realize they are even spreading the virus. Can you follow that smart guy?


How many times do I have to tell you that you can't spread Covid if you don't have it?  How many times do I have to tell you that even if a vaccinated person does have a breakthrough infection, it is less serious and they are not contagious for as long, so therefore they expose fewer people?  How many times do I have to explain to you that unvaccinated morons are clogging up our healthcare system so badly that everyone is going to see somewhere between a 5 and 12 percent increase in health insurance costs, which is what Blue Shield is already telling employers.  Honestly, I'd be fine if all you idiots would just homeschool and then die in the comfort of your own home instead of begging our healthcare providers for help and horse dewormer.  The price of anti-vaxxer freedom should include having to pay for the stupidity of your fellow anti-vaxxers instead of making the rest of us pay for it.  

Accordingly, virtually every health agency around continues to recommend getting vaccinated.  Even you can understand that simple concept, right? You're claiming if one person has a breakthrough infection, that means they are equally likely to spread it as someone who isn't vaccinated, so it's pointless to get vaccinate.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> No real surprise.  They’ve been saying for a while now that against omicron the vaccines offer mild protection against infection, but robust protection against severe disease.  Just one more piece of evidence for that.


If you guys are still discussing the age break down of VE vs omicron infection, IMO at lot of that could be related to +/- boosters and if I recall the data as shown was not broken out that way.  Just categories of two pop or non-vaxx.  For J&J and Moderna, the youngers are not booster recommended, so they will show a more comparable infection/100K than olders you have had their circulating Abs spiked up again through a booster. Take rate on boosters probably higher with olders too.  With the antigenic drift on omicron need a higher titer to neutralize.


----------



## baldref

dad4 said:


> That is the difference between a scientist and someone looking for confirmation.


You're far more the latter than the former


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> My dad finally caught it. Despite being boosted, going around no where without an N95, and not really socializing except very rarely and outdoors and not during the relevant time period (we hadn't been around him in the relevant time period).  We are at a loss for where he might have caught it...the market (well then even those N95s don't help), a lab to get his blood drawn (someone real contagious must have crossed there), the dog??? (even though they say dogs don't transmit to humans).  So far only the sniffles on day 2 and no other symptoms (fingers crossed).


From my anecdotal survey, those that were boosted seemed to have milder symptoms than only the 2 shotters.  Although the 2 shotters symptoms weren't awful.


----------



## watfly

This is a slightly different study.  It doesn't look at effectiveness against infection but effectiveness against symptomatic disease.  Similar results to other study two dose vaccine is not effective against Omicron, much better with booster although that wanes as well.



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2119451
		


It seems we have two camps in this forum.  Pro-Vax Koolaid or Pro-Vax Realistic, although to team Kool-Aid, Pro-Vax Realistic is Anti-Vax.  In hindsight, I feel like I would may have been better off with a booster.


----------



## dad4

baldref said:


> You're far more the latter than the former


Baldie, your main contribution here is thumbs up to anyone who agrees with Tucker Carlson.  I’m ok without your support.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> You're far more the latter than the former


The biggest problem is some people confuse science with truth when in fact its just a process or methodology (albeit a good process typically).  Usually its the one's in science that think its the truth, which is just arrogance.  Exhibit A is Fauci claiming to be science and to question him is to question science.









						If You Say ‘Science Is Right,’ You’re Wrong
					

It can’t supply absolute truths about the world, but it brings us steadily closer




					www.scientificamerican.com
				












						Science Does Not Reveal Truth
					

The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data, we have to update all of our beliefs. And how can a belief be true if it is subject to change at a moment's notice?




					www.forbes.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> This is a slightly different study.  It doesn't look at effectiveness against infection but effectiveness against symptomatic disease.  Similar results to other study two dose vaccine is not effective against Omicron, much better with booster although that wanes as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2119451
> 
> 
> 
> It seems we have two camps in this forum.  Pro-Vax Koolaid or Pro-Vax Realistic, although to team Kool-Aid, Pro-Vax Realistic is Anti-Vax.  In hindsight, I feel like I would may have been better off with a booster.


This is the published form of the UK data that was linked on this thread back in late Dec/early Jan. "symptomatic disease"  as they are using it in this context means a case that was not detected just by PCR.  somebody walked into a doctor's office or something. So it's still really a case study, not severe disease/hospitalization.  As per my last post the message is, as has since been repeated in other studies, there is sufficient antigenic drift with omicron that if you want to bend community transmission/case load you need the high Ab titers afforded by a recent booster-or a recent infection.  

BTW, since there were various complaints on this thread about no studies on infection primed immunity (ie "natural immunity"-as if there were any other kind) good longitudinal studies have now been done.  The only fly in the ointment for infection primed immunity is that the extent of long term cellular immunity going forward correlates tightly with disease severity.  So if you almost died, you should be pretty resistant going forward towards the next viral emergence from resevoirs.  If you were not so sick, not so much.


----------



## baldref

dad4 said:


> Baldie, your main contribution here is thumbs up to anyone who agrees with Tucker Carlson.  I’m ok without your support.


Your main contribution is professing your opinions as truths, and believing the establishment gives a shit about you. Sorry preacher, it doesn't.


----------



## baldref

baldref said:


> Your main contribution is professing your opinions as truths, and believing the establishment gives a shit about you. Sorry preacher, it doesn't.


And I'm not here to contribute. I'm just here for a few laughs. I, unlike yourself, don't want to convince anyone that I'm right. I have my thoughts, and that's good enough for me. Have a nice day preacher.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Baldie, your main contribution here is thumbs up to anyone who agrees with Tucker Carlson.  I’m ok without your support.


Hahaha! What does it say when your biggest supporter is GG? I'll wait for the study to come out before I decide.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! What does it say when your biggest supporter is GG? I'll wait for the study to come out before I decide.


Fear makes strange bedfellows.  Although, I really have no room to talk based some that like my posts.  Of course, you and Baldref excluded.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Baldie, your main contribution here is thumbs up to anyone who agrees with Tucker Carlson.  I’m ok without your support.


I’m sure the Putin shirtless posters are quite the thing amongst the tucker suckers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> The biggest problem is some people confuse science with truth when in fact its just a process or methodology (albeit a good process typically).  Usually its the one's in science that think its the truth, which is just arrogance.  Exhibit A is Fauci claiming to be science and to question him is to question science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If You Say ‘Science Is Right,’ You’re Wrong
> 
> 
> It can’t supply absolute truths about the world, but it brings us steadily closer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science Does Not Reveal Truth
> 
> 
> The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data, we have to update all of our beliefs. And how can a belief be true if it is subject to change at a moment's notice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


And it’s the one’s immersed in the fringe belief system that believe science lacks the validity of those that wish to oppose it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

baldref said:


> Your main contribution is professing your opinions as truths, and believing the establishment gives a shit about you. Sorry preacher, it doesn't.


Your insecurity is shining bright in that post.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> And it’s the one’s immersed in the fringe belief system that believe science lacks the validity of those that wish to oppose it.


Skepticism is healthy, but blindly following or ignoring science is not.


----------



## baldref

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your insecurity is shining bright in that post.


And your ignorance and stupidity shines in every sinlge one of yours. So there's that.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Oh man...what a burn!


...brilliant


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Baldie, your main contribution here is thumbs up to anyone who agrees with Tucker Carlson.  I’m ok without your support.


It must be a bitter life for him to always be on the wrong side.


----------



## MicPaPa

baldref said:


> And your ignorance and stupidity shines in every sinlge one of yours. So there's that.


Fact Check: TRUE


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> It must be a bitter life for him to always be on the wrong side.


And from your view, the world always looks like an anal cavity.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You anti-vaxxers all live in opposite world.  In fact, relying on your anecdotal "evidence" instead of actual medical and scientific studies is the very definition of emotional no matter how much you claim the opposite. See: When poignant stories outweigh cold hard facts: A meta-analysis of the anecdotal bias - ScienceDirect .  Of course, morons like you completely ignore scientific studies based on your anecdotal "evidence", because it is the only place you can go to support the confirmation bias that you are looking for: Confirmation bias | Cram.
> 
> No one is surprised that the anti-vax/mask clown car crowd ignores studies and science because they're too emotional to understand what is happening, because that's who whiny Karens are.  It's what you do.


This would all makes sense if you could even recognize a well done study.  Too bad so many studies are just crap or had/have agendas.  They all do, even the ones you disgree with.  Check out some decent masking studies out of spain.  Anyway, you are just a clown blowing smoke up everyon'e 4th point of contact.  It's much more fun to see you get all worked up.  It's obvious you wouldn't know a scientific study even if it was printed on the inside of your mask.  

Covid as you knew it (and how you would like to have kept it) is over.  The vaccinated have their vaccines, the unvaccinated don't, and the naturally infected are what they are.  Go out and thank your medical health professionals that would even treat you. 

looking forward to your froth filled response - will check it out in a few days.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The first Omicron variant was detected three months ago in the US and there weren't enough cases and spread to even start a study until January. Yet here you are claiming two months later that it's perfectly fine to parade around unvaccinated and unmasked because there hasn't been a peer reviewed study in the mere two months that it even became possible to start conducting a study.  Honestly, you are about as stupid as they get. So please tell me the exact day that this study should have been completed and peer reviewed to meet your "rigorous" standards?  And how does the fact that a study hasn't been published in two months "prove" that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated?  I feel like you let someone repeatedly hit you over the head with an Easton brand baseball bat because there hasn't been a scientific study proving that those brands will also give you a concussion, so surely you'll be fine.  If there hasn't been a definitive study (which we know from your time here that you would disregard anyway because it does not fit your Karen-y emotional snowflake confirmation bias) yet to prove something is happening, it clearly isn't happening, right?  And you know that because you've seen with your own microscopic eyes how Omicron is spread, right?


where do you get your stuff from?  It's like you forget what you were looking at.  Who even says Easton Brand bat?  You def don't play baseball.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> From my anecdotal survey, those that were boosted seemed to have milder symptoms than only the 2 shotters.  Although the 2 shotters symptoms weren't awful.





watfly said:


> This is a slightly different study.  It doesn't look at effectiveness against infection but effectiveness against symptomatic disease.  Similar results to other study two dose vaccine is not effective against Omicron, much better with booster although that wanes as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2119451
> 
> 
> 
> It seems we have two camps in this forum.  Pro-Vax Koolaid or Pro-Vax Realistic, although to team Kool-Aid, Pro-Vax Realistic is Anti-Vax.  In hindsight, I feel like I would may have been better off with a booster.


Yeah, no regrets getting boosted from me. I'd call what I got a cold - no fever, no chest congestion, no real downtime.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> My dad finally caught it. Despite being boosted, going around no where without an N95, and not really socializing except very rarely and outdoors and not during the relevant time period (we hadn't been around him in the relevant time period).  We are at a loss for where he might have caught it...the market (well then even those N95s don't help), a lab to get his blood drawn (someone real contagious must have crossed there), the dog??? (even though they say dogs don't transmit to humans).  So far only the sniffles on day 2 and no other symptoms (fingers crossed).


All the best to your dad, @Grace T.

I'd guess the R0 for omicron is higher than calculated - exceptionally contagious. With milder symptoms in general and even more so if vaccinated, many people that aren't required to test won't be counted as cases.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> And from your view, the world always looks like an anal cavity.


Yup.  Go homophobic when you have nothing to say.


----------



## Grace T.

Asia is getting hit hard by omicron, particularly areas which have only taken a minor hit until now like China and South Korea.  It's disrupting the supply of electronics (particularly since China is still wedded to a COVID zero policy).  Shortages in these areas are likely to be prolonged for another 6-18 months.  Coupled with the slow moving tsunami coming into the global economy from the war and Russia sanctions, the next 12 months especially will be very bumpy (people I respect seem to be estimating from more of the same to some really scarey economic stuff).


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> This would all makes sense if you could even recognize a well done study.  Too bad so many studies are just crap or had/have agendas.  They all do, even the ones you disgree with.  Check out some decent masking studies out of spain.  Anyway, you are just a clown blowing smoke up everyon'e 4th point of contact.  It's much more fun to see you get all worked up.  It's obvious you wouldn't know a scientific study even if it was printed on the inside of your mask.
> 
> Covid as you knew it (and how you would like to have kept it) is over.  The vaccinated have their vaccines, the unvaccinated don't, and the naturally infected are what they are.  Go out and thank your medical health professionals that would even treat you.
> 
> looking forward to your froth filled response - will check it out in a few days.


I see.  Not you just ignore studies by claiming they aren't "well done".  

I already destroyed Grace the equestrian's Spain "study".  Is that the one you were talking about?  The one that even quoted two American studies that establish how effective masks have been here?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! What does it say when your biggest supporter is GG? I'll wait for the study to come out before I decide.


And yours are crush, bigots like thirteen knots and micipapa, soccersc and the unemployed equestrian with an unused law degree who calls other people elitist.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> And yours are crush, bigots like thirteen knots and micipapa, soccersc and the unemployed equestrian with an unused law degree who calls other people elitist.


Headcases all of them.


----------



## Grace T.

Los Angeles Unified School District says it's keeping mask mandate
					

The county's teachers' unions have been in strong support of mask mandates.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> And yours are crush, bigots like thirteen knots and micipapa, soccersc and the unemployed equestrian with an unused law degree who calls other people elitist.


I feel many of them may be one person as it’s typical for that ilk to accuse others of what they do and that is something the nutters in here of said quite a few times. I do notice they chime in in waves. Where one goes they all go, lol!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

It's so cute when the pathetic trolls talk to each other - imaginary friends, imagined intellect, and real mental illness.


----------



## Grace T.

Hong Kong is shaping up to be a disaster, due to the low elderly vaccination rate and an immuno naive population.  Omicron is having a heavy edge, which means it might not be so much less lethal as it is infecting a planet with plenty of vaccine and natural immunity.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503420672940380173


----------



## baldref

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's so cute when the pathetic trolls talk to each other - imaginary friends, imagined intellect, and real mental illness.


Like an episode of real housewives of the bay area.


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's so cute when the pathetic trolls talk to each other - imaginary friends, imagined intellect, and real mental illness.


Still bitter about Gavin Newsom?  It's so funny that your recall turned out to be a mandate for Newsom to keep kicking you in the teeth.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Hong Kong is shaping up to be a disaster, due to the low elderly vaccination rate and an immuno naive population.  Omicron is having a heavy edge, which means it might not be so much less lethal as it is infecting a planet with plenty of vaccine and natural immunity.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503420672940380173


Did they stop wearing masks? I heard that's as effective as the vaccine and that Asian people are really good about wearing masks.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel many of them may be one person as it’s typical for that ilk to accuse others of what they do and that is something the nutters in here of said quite a few times. I do notice they chime in in waves. Where one goes they all go, lol!


Nice tug there skippy.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Yup.  Go homophobic when you have nothing to say.


Ah, from your deck of victim cards - well played bone smuggler.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I see.  Not you just ignore studies by claiming they aren't "well done".
> 
> I already destroyed Grace the equestrian's Spain "study".  Is that the one you were talking about?  The one that even quoted two American studies that establish how effective masks have been here?


Ha, you are such a subjugated clown. There have been plenty of bad studies - masks, boosters, vaccines for childrent, ivermectin, masks.  

I'm sure you are conversent on Ab titers , so it's totally cool to approve more boosters based on non-inferior ones?  But please, talk to me about studies, I'm all ears.    Shouldn't, in this case, boosters prove to reduce severe disease and must prove that for the ulittles before moving forward?

Besides, woudn't it be great if the FDA made people like Bourla and his crew run real randomized trials that maybe showed reduction in a clinically significant endpoint...maybe something along the lines of  severe disease.  But I'm sure you are down for a 4th booster that is being peddled by the pharma vampires.  You'll be first in line, strong and unafraid...  But seriously, if you've already been boosted, chill.  If you are old then you don't have much concern over the lack of long term data.  You'll be fine, having lived a good life.  Even if you aren't "old", once boosted is chill.  Twice boosted and healthy is a bit overkill -you would fall squarely into the advocate world, taking one for the cause.  

I do admire how well you carry the torch.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel many of them may be one person as it’s typical for that ilk to accuse others of what they do and that is something the nutters in here of said quite a few times. I do notice they chime in in waves. Where one goes they all go, lol!


maybe it's one person for all?  That sounds way cooler than copying what someone else just said.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> maybe it's one person for all?  That sounds way cooler than copying what someone else just said.


It’s pretty obvious who the usual suspects are.  The ones who are obviously insane and completely adamant about there insanity. There once was grandpa duck, then nononono, now there is Crush. Lots of similarly minded posters along the way that may or may not be multiple personality (disorders). The ones that can’t keep it an adult discussion and wander off into speculative assumptions and random personal attacks are also on the list.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s pretty obvious who the usual suspects are.  The ones who are obviously insane and completely adamant about there insanity. There once was grandpa duck, then nononono, now there is Crush. Lots of similarly minded posters along the way that may or may not be multiple personality (disorders). The ones that can’t keep it an adult discussion and wander off into speculative assumptions and random personal attacks are also on the list.


...and there is the whiners.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...and there is the whiners.


The only thing worse than a multi-aliased troll is a whiney, multi-aliased troll.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> The only thing worse than a multi-aliased troll is a whiney, multi-aliased troll.


You find it inconceivable that more than one person believes you are wrong?

That‘s not a good sign.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You find it inconceivable that more than one person believes you are wrong?
> 
> That‘s not a good sign.


Your view is too narrow. It's not that someone thinks that I am "wrong" it's that someone is not being who they are. I engage who I believe is sincere and reasonably respectful - my judgment, obviously. KM2 didn't agree with me back when she posted. She wasn't a troll. There were actually a few more early in the pandemic that tended toward your "side". They were authentic. I suppose they just got tired of the thread and moved on to other activities.  I have never stated you are a troll and said as much on the board more than once. I didn't agree with Crush but I engaged with him because he was authentic. If you are paying attention, you will notice there is at least one that tends toward what I believe on COVID and I don't engage at all.

Trust me, I know there are plenty of non-Trolls that believe I am wrong. I see many every day on the street walking with masks and walking out on the street when someone approaches.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> You find it inconceivable that more than one person believes you are wrong?
> 
> That‘s not a good sign.




Couldn’t resist.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> And yours are crush, bigots like thirteen knots and micipapa, soccersc and the unemployed equestrian with an unused law degree who calls other people elitist.


So due your consistently bigoted anti-religion stance I need to lump you in with the same group?  

That’s awkward!


----------



## N00B

kickingandscreaming said:


> All the best to your dad, @Grace T.
> I'd guess the R0 for omicron is higher than calculated - exceptionally contagious. With milder symptoms in general and even more so if vaccinated, *many people that aren't required to test won't be counted as cases.*


I fully agree with that presumption.


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> Ha, you are such a subjugated clown. There have been plenty of bad studies - masks, boosters, vaccines for childrent, ivermectin, masks.
> 
> I'm sure you are conversent on Ab titers , so it's totally cool to approve more boosters based on non-inferior ones?  But please, talk to me about studies, I'm all ears.    Shouldn't, in this case, boosters prove to reduce severe disease and must prove that for the ulittles before moving forward?
> 
> Besides, woudn't it be great if the FDA made people like Bourla and his crew run real randomized trials that maybe showed reduction in a clinically significant endpoint...maybe something along the lines of  severe disease.  But I'm sure you are down for a 4th booster that is being peddled by the pharma vampires.  You'll be first in line, strong and unafraid...  But seriously, if you've already been boosted, chill.  If you are old then you don't have much concern over the lack of long term data.  You'll be fine, having lived a good life.  Even if you aren't "old", once boosted is chill.  Twice boosted and healthy is a bit overkill -you would fall squarely into the advocate world, taking one for the cause.
> 
> I do admire how well you carry the torch.


You can't talk common sense with @GoldenGate he doesn't have an intention to have an intellectual conversation and when he is perplexed on the answer he either doesn't comment or he starts with name calling and put downs.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Ha, you are such a subjugated clown. There have been plenty of bad studies - masks, boosters, vaccines for childrent, ivermectin, masks.
> 
> I'm sure you are conversent on Ab titers , so it's totally cool to approve more boosters based on non-inferior ones?  But please, talk to me about studies, I'm all ears.    Shouldn't, in this case, boosters prove to reduce severe disease and must prove that for the ulittles before moving forward?
> 
> Besides, woudn't it be great if the FDA made people like Bourla and his crew run real randomized trials that maybe showed reduction in a clinically significant endpoint...maybe something along the lines of  severe disease.  But I'm sure you are down for a 4th booster that is being peddled by the pharma vampires.  You'll be first in line, strong and unafraid...  But seriously, if you've already been boosted, chill.  If you are old then you don't have much concern over the lack of long term data.  You'll be fine, having lived a good life.  Even if you aren't "old", once boosted is chill.  Twice boosted and healthy is a bit overkill -you would fall squarely into the advocate world, taking one for the cause.
> 
> I do admire how well you carry the torch.


I love this.  If a study isn't completed in three months of Omicron's existence, Omicron can't be contagious because there hasn't been a study completed in such a short period of time (when that argument suits your anti-vaxxer friend soccersc).  But a non-randomized trial that takes months upon months is no good (when that argument suits your anti-vaxxer arse), although an irrelevant Spanish study that does neither is definitely reliable especially even if it has nothing to do with what is going on in the U.S. and is contradicted by two real studies that do involve the U.S. (when that arguments suits your anti-vaxxer friend Grace the unemployed).  And then all of you claim that denying every study you don't like is "scientific" because "science" means "questioning" everything that you don't want to hear.  

It must drive the four or five of you crazier than you already are that you can't even come here without getting raked over the coals.  You should try to recall Gav Gav, since all you did the last time was give him a mandate to save lives.  And given that CA is 39th in death rate despite having easily the highest population densities in the U.S., ha ha ha ha.  Anyone want to comment on how NY did such a terrible job with Covid that it is now 10th, and although the vast majority of deaths there occurred before a vaccine, before horse dewormer, before anyone even know how to treat it?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> You can't talk common sense with @GoldenGate he doesn't have an intention to have an intellectual conversation and when he is perplexed on the answer he either doesn't comment or he starts with name calling and put downs.


The majority of Californians agree with me.  In fact, 62% voted against the recall in a freaking landslide.  75% of Americans support vaccines, masks or both to access indoor spaces.

You'll need to find some other safe space whiner.  Maybe the Klan has an online youth forum that is better suited to your views?  You do know about Qanon right?


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> The only thing worse than a multi-aliased troll is a whiney, multi-aliased troll.


Whiner.  Right now you're whining about people who don't agree with you.  When you aren't whining like a petulant child that people don't agree with you, you're whining about having to wear masks, whining about vaccines, and whining about all the studies that support both of those things.  All you do is whine.  Ha ha ha ha ha.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> The majority of Californians agree with me.  In fact, 62% voted against the recall in a freaking landslide.  75% of Americans support vaccines, masks or both to access indoor spaces.
> 
> You'll need to find some other safe space whiner.  Maybe the Klan has an online youth forum that is better suited to your views?  You do know about Qanon right?


64% of all Americans want stricter gun laws as well but that doesn’t faze the nutters. They are the minority and know it. That’s why they are desperate to change voting laws and undermine the traditional American system.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Whiner.  Right now you're whining about people who don't agree with you.  When you aren't whining like a petulant child that people don't agree with you, you're whining about having to wear masks, whining about vaccines, and whining about all the studies that support both of those things.  All you do is whine.  Ha ha ha ha ha.


The creativity level amongst nutters peaks at “I know you are but what am I?”


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> The creativity level amongst nutters peaks at “I know you are but what am I?”


The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.

Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?  

Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"? 

Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?

Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.  

Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?

Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?

Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


----------



## GoldenGate

GoldenGate said:


> The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?
> 
> Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"?
> 
> Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?
> 
> Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?
> 
> Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


*20%, not 205


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I love this.  If a study isn't completed in three months of Omicron's existence, Omicron can't be contagious because there hasn't been a study completed in such a short period of time (when that argument suits your anti-vaxxer friend soccersc).  But a non-randomized trial that takes months upon months is no good (when that argument suits your anti-vaxxer arse), although an irrelevant Spanish study that does neither is definitely reliable especially even if it has nothing to do with what is going on in the U.S. and is contradicted by two real studies that do involve the U.S. (when that arguments suits your anti-vaxxer friend Grace the unemployed).  And then all of you claim that denying every study you don't like is "scientific" because "science" means "questioning" everything that you don't want to hear.
> 
> It must drive the four or five of you crazier than you already are that you can't even come here without getting raked over the coals.  You should try to recall Gav Gav, since all you did the last time was give him a mandate to save lives.  And given that CA is 39th in death rate despite having easily the highest population densities in the U.S., ha ha ha ha.  Anyone want to comment on how NY did such a terrible job with Covid that it is now 10th, and although the vast majority of deaths there occurred before a vaccine, before horse dewormer, before anyone even know how to treat it?


Who's mad?  and what exactly are you trying to say?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?
> 
> Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"?
> 
> Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?
> 
> Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?
> 
> Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


Which "anti vaxxer" isn't vaxxed?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?
> 
> Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"?
> 
> Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?
> 
> Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?
> 
> Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


Yep.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?
> 
> Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"?
> 
> Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?
> 
> Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?
> 
> Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


Nice summary.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> The anti-vax/mask crowd is always looking for excuses and to conveniently ignore what they said in the past.  Do you remember the clown who claimed 2 years ago that only 100 people had died of Covid-19 and that he'd leave this forum forever if it got over 10,000? He didn't.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax/mask clowns claiming vaccines were dangerous because they were "rushed" as their excuse to not get vaccinated? Yet here we are 2.5 years out from the date the vaccines first started being researched and then implemented, and maybe 10 people allegedly got blood clots (or maybe they didn't) from one of the three vaccines?  And that whole time the same people were ignoring that 205 of those hospitalized with serious Covid-19 get blood clots, which obviously could have been avoided if they'd, uh, gotten vaccinated?
> 
> Do you remember the clowns claiming the vaccines don't reduce transmission rates as another excuse to not get vaccinated, yet now they're citing studies that establish exactly the opposite but also state that they reduce transmission but less "significantly" now with Omicron?  How convenient that they ignore that while trying to misrepresent that "less significantly" means "not at all"?
> 
> Do you remember Grace the legal seagull claiming masks don't work so we shouldn't wear them, and then having to backtrack by rationalizing that they don't work when people don't wear them right, so we shouldn't wear them because she and her other friends just won't?
> 
> Do you remember the AZ cactus shitbag claiming AZ was handling Covid-19 perfectly and mocking NY for how horribly it handled Covid-19 because so many people died there before there was a vaccine, before there was horse paste, before anyone knew anything about how it was spread or how to treat it?  Yet now he ignores that NY has dropped to 10th and AZ has easily the worst death Covid-19 death rate since it's inception despite having no excuse and although most AZ deaths came after vaccination was widely available?  Looks like all his gloating about hitting the bars and not wearing masks was the utter rubbish we always knew it was.
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vaxxer xenophobes blaming China for creating it in a lab as their excuse to disclaim responsibility for their irresponsible behavior that has gotten almost 1 million Americans killed?  And now despite two studies proving it was the b.s. we all knew it was, now they're ignoring those studies because they aren't "peer reviewed" yet.  And also ignoring all studies they don't like with whatever excuse it takes?
> 
> Do you remember all these clowns gloating about how Gav Gav was going to get recalled because they thought their crazy fringe anti-mask/vax beliefs were actually the majority view, and now they're pretending they didn't get crushed like the cockroaches that they are?
> 
> Do you remember the anti-vax clowns claiming the vaccines don't work, or even that they're more dangerous than Covid, so they aren't necessary? Yet now their excuse is that they don't work forever, so don't get vaccinated?


Haha...not sure if you needed to write all that because nobody really listens to you or you are just bored at work...the best one was the last one though...I haven't read one time in the entire post when somebody said don't get vaccinated..lol... but I think in your mind things work a little differently


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Your view is too narrow. It's not that someone thinks that I am "wrong" it's that someone is not being who they are. I engage who I believe is sincere and reasonably respectful - my judgment, obviously. KM2 didn't agree with me back when she posted. She wasn't a troll. There were actually a few more early in the pandemic that tended toward your "side". They were authentic. I suppose they just got tired of the thread and moved on to other activities.  I have never stated you are a troll and said as much on the board more than once. I didn't agree with Crush but I engaged with him because he was authentic. If you are paying attention, you will notice there is at least one that tends toward what I believe on COVID and I don't engage at all.
> 
> Trust me, I know there are plenty of non-Trolls that believe I am wrong. I see many every day on the street walking with masks and walking out on the street when someone approaches.


Who, exactly, are the multi-aliased trolls you mentioned?

Crush is quite honest about it.  And EOTL is clearly dodging a well deserved ban.

Other than that, do you see any multiple alias people here?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Who, exactly, are the multi-aliased trolls you mentioned?
> 
> Crush is quite honest about it.  And EOTL is clearly dodging a well deserved ban.
> 
> Other than that, do you see any multiple alias people here?


“I see dead people”


----------



## N00B

soccersc said:


> Haha...not sure if you needed to write all that because nobody really listens to you or you are just bored at work...the best one was the last one though...I haven't read one time in the entire post when somebody said don't get vaccinated..lol... but I think in your mind things work a little differently


lol ‘at work’… that’s an unexpected compliment.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Who, exactly, are the multi-aliased trolls you mentioned?
> 
> Crush is quite honest about it.  And EOTL is clearly dodging a well deserved ban.
> 
> Other than that, do you see any multiple alias people here?


I would suggest there is a former Sherif that is also avoiding a well deserved ban with an alias at a minimum.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Who, exactly, are the multi-aliased trolls you mentioned?
> 
> Crush is quite honest about it. And EOTL is clearly dodging a well deserved ban.
> 
> Other than that, do you see any multiple alias people here?


I stated my suspicions on the board a while back. Keep an alias or three that can be used to address people in a way that gets you punched in the face if you are in person, and another for regular conversations. Nothing has really changed from my perspective. Some names have "retired" from this thread - NotInTheFace (after calling @GraceT a c*nt) and TheLongGame. Do you think those guys go away? Find another name and repeat. Oh, and that trans parent that popped up a while back - definitely one of the alter egos. The sad part is that it's a legitimate topic - but that had Jayson Blair written all over it. There are certain things I look for. If you want to direct message me, I'll respond but I don't need to help the fool(s) who are engaging in that game. I noticed a change in the vocabulary from a couple after I called them out last time. Pathetic was a good marker for a while.

I don't consider Crush a troll and he isn't trying to come across as more than one individual.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't consider Crush a troll and he isn't trying to come across as more than one individual.


That's pretty ignorant.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> That's pretty ignorant.


“You can do anything, but never go against the family.” Or cult in this case.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> I stated my suspicions on the board a while back. Keep an alias or three that can be used to address people in a way that gets you punched in the face if you are in person, and another for regular conversations. Nothing has really changed from my perspective. Some names have "retired" from this thread - NotInTheFace (after calling @GraceT a c*nt) and TheLongGame. Do you think those guys go away? Find another name and repeat. Oh, and that trans parent that popped up a while back - definitely one of the alter egos. The sad part is that it's a legitimate topic - but that had Jayson Blair written all over it. There are certain things I look for. If you want to direct message me, I'll respond but I don't need to help the fool(s) who are engaging in that game. I noticed a change in the vocabulary from a couple after I called them out last time. Pathetic was a good marker for a while.
> 
> I don't consider Crush a troll and he isn't trying to come across as more than one individual.


Big Wave Dave?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Who, exactly, are the multi-aliased trolls you mentioned?
> 
> Crush is quite honest about it.  And EOTL is clearly dodging a well deserved ban.
> 
> Other than that, do you see any multiple alias people here?


Like when @GoldenGate  says he has to talk down and ridicule people that don't believe the same views as he does, and he needs to put them in their place...hmm, who else used to say that same thing...@EOTL probably can answer that


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> I stated my suspicions on the board a while back. Keep an alias or three that can be used to address people in a way that gets you punched in the face if you are in person, and another for regular conversations. Nothing has really changed from my perspective. Some names have "retired" from this thread - NotInTheFace (after calling @GraceT a c*nt) and TheLongGame. Do you think those guys go away? Find another name and repeat. Oh, and that trans parent that popped up a while back - definitely one of the alter egos. The sad part is that it's a legitimate topic - but that had Jayson Blair written all over it. There are certain things I look for. If you want to direct message me, I'll respond but I don't need to help the fool(s) who are engaging in that game. I noticed a change in the vocabulary from a couple after I called them out last time. Pathetic was a good marker for a while.
> 
> I don't consider Crush a troll and he isn't trying to come across as more than one individual.


Also, as always, beware of those that scream/whine the loudest.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Like when @GoldenGate  says he has to talk down and ridicule people that don't believe the same views as he does, and he needs to put them in their place...hmm, who else used to say that same thing...@EOTL probably can answer that


Your insecurity is sticking out again.


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> I stated my suspicions on the board a while back. Keep an alias or three that can be used to address people in a way that gets you punched in the face if you are in person, and another for regular conversations. Nothing has really changed from my perspective. Some names have "retired" from this thread - NotInTheFace (after calling @GraceT a c*nt) and TheLongGame. Do you think those guys go away? Find another name and repeat. Oh, and that trans parent that popped up a while back - definitely one of the alter egos. The sad part is that it's a legitimate topic - but that had Jayson Blair written all over it. There are certain things I look for. If you want to direct message me, I'll respond but I don't need to help the fool(s) who are engaging in that game. I noticed a change in the vocabulary from a couple after I called them out last time. Pathetic was a good marker for a while.
> 
> I don't consider Crush a troll and he isn't trying to come across as more than one individual.


I've been accused of being EOTL, espola, dad4 (which is funny since he is an idiot on soccer even if he's right on Covid), husker du, notintheface, thelonggame, among others.  Why?  Because, like most people in the U.S., I disagree with you, but I am also willing to say it and you and your friends have been unable to drive me and a few others away.  Accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being the same person is a coping mechanism to rationalize that what you say is more than just crazy fringe conspiracy theories.  I also spend time explaining myself, which is unusual and often impossible for the anti-vax/maskers who rely on tropes and memes.  Reading studies gets in the way of your fact free opinions but, trust me, it not unusual for those with brainpower.    

Speaking of trolls, why do you believe someone who spent most of his time posting anti-vax/mask memes and accusing Dr. Fauci of secretly paying China to create a population control virus is not a troll, yet someone who reads the ones posted by anti-vaxxers and then explains why they're being misrepresented (usually quoting the actual text that people like you call "cherry picking") is one?  In reality, you don't know what to do with people who won't let you have your fact free safe space, and calling me a troll is your desperate last ditch effort to make me go away.  How have we reached the point that people like you legitimately believe that memes with conspiracy theories constitutes legitimate "debate", but someone who cites scientific studies, reads them all, and explains them is a troll?  So Orwellian.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Heathrow dropping mask requirements









						London Heathrow, UK airlines dropping masking requirements in airport and in flight
					

London's Heathrow Airport, the largest airport in the United Kingdom, will no longer require travelers to wear a face mask while traveling, according to BBC News.




					thehill.com
				



.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> I've been accused of being EOTL, espola, dad4 (which is funny since he is an idiot on soccer even if he's right on Covid), husker du, notintheface, thelonggame, among others.  Why?  Because, like most people in the U.S., I disagree with you, but I am also willing to say it and you and your friends have been unable to drive me and a few others away.  Accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being the same person is a coping mechanism to rationalize that what you say is more than just crazy fringe conspiracy theories.  I also spend time explaining myself, which is unusual and often impossible for the anti-vax/maskers who rely on tropes and memes.  Reading studies gets in the way of your fact free opinions but, trust me, it not unusual for those with brainpower.
> 
> Speaking of trolls, why do you believe someone who spent most of his time posting anti-vax/mask memes and accusing Dr. Fauci of secretly paying China to create a population control virus is not a troll, yet someone who reads the ones posted by anti-vaxxers and then explains why they're being misrepresented (usually quoting the actual text that people like you call "cherry picking") is one?  In reality, you don't know what to do with people who won't let you have your fact free safe space, and calling me a troll is your desperate last ditch effort to make me go away.  How have we reached the point that people like you legitimately believe that memes with conspiracy theories constitutes legitimate "debate", but someone who cites scientific studies, reads them all, and explains them is a troll?  So Orwellian.


Don’t Look Up!


----------



## what-happened

[/QUOTE]
Which studies are you referring to?  Facts seem to escape you.  But great job on spitting out agendas and talking points.


GoldenGate said:


> I've been accused of being EOTL, espola, dad4 (which is funny since he is an idiot on soccer even if he's right on Covid), husker du, notintheface, thelonggame, among others.  Why?  Because, like most people in the U.S., I disagree with you, but I am also willing to say it and you and your friends have been unable to drive me and a few others away.  Accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being the same person is a coping mechanism to rationalize that what you say is more than just crazy fringe conspiracy theories.  I also spend time explaining myself, which is unusual and often impossible for the anti-vax/maskers who rely on tropes and memes.  Reading studies gets in the way of your fact free opinions but, trust me, it not unusual for those with brainpower.
> 
> Speaking of trolls, why do you believe someone who spent most of his time posting anti-vax/mask memes and accusing Dr. Fauci of secretly paying China to create a population control virus is not a troll, yet someone who reads the ones posted by anti-vaxxers and then explains why they're being misrepresented (usually quoting the actual text that people like you call "cherry picking") is one?  In reality, you don't know what to do with people who won't let you have your fact free safe space, and calling me a troll is your desperate last ditch effort to make me go away.  How have we reached the point that people like you legitimately believe that memes with conspiracy theories constitutes legitimate "debate", but someone who cites scientific studies, reads them all, and explains them is a troll?  So Orwellian.


You truly live in lala land.  Thank goodness you are the savior of all truth.  Thanks for explaining yourself and everything, amazing job.  I think this thread has reached it's peak.  Masks as you know them don't really work, vaccine data for ulittles is all over the place.  You have little grasp of anything related to health and science.  But you are entertaining, which is what matters most.


----------



## GoldenGate

Which studies are you referring to?  Facts seem to escape you.  But great job on spitting out agendas and talking points.

You truly live in lala land.  Thank goodness you are the savior of all truth.  Thanks for explaining yourself and everything, amazing job.  I think this thread has reached it's peak.  Masks as you know them don't really work, vaccine data for ulittles is all over the place.  You have little grasp of anything related to health and science.  But you are entertaining, which is what matters most.
[/QUOTE]

Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.

Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.

Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.
> 
> Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.
> 
> Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.


I think, based on long observation, that when grace calls someone "troll" it's a tell that she knows she has been exposed as incorrect on some point.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I think, based on long observation, that when grace calls someone "troll" it's a tell that she knows she has been exposed as incorrect on some point.


How’s the increased usability in searching posts/users with the platinum membership?  Seems  like it might be worth it.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> I've been accused of being *EOTL, espola*, dad4 (which is funny since he is an idiot on soccer even if he's right on Covid), husker du, notintheface, thelonggame, among others.  Why?…
> 
> So Orwellian.


Semantics.  You’re not denying, you’re deflecting.  If I was @dad4 I’d be offended, but I’m fairly sure GG is on ignore.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> How’s the increased usability in searching posts/users with the platinum membership?  Seems  like it might be worth it.


The search engine is not as good as google, but I might not have stretched its limits.  I remember the bad old days of SQL that allowed precise searches, but google-like search engines are more user-friendly.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Semantics.  You’re not denying, you’re deflecting.  If I was @dad4 I’d be offended, but I’m fairly sure GG is on ignore.


I’m more offended that anyone believed GG and I are the same dude.   (Presumably, GG is equally offended, though for different reasons.)

But GG is right on this one.  The GG=espola=Dad4=HuskerDu=BobTheBuilder argument is pretty pathetic.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> The search engine is not as good as google, but I might not have stretched its limits.  I remember the bad old days of SQL that allowed precise searches, but google-like search engines are more user-friendly.


BBS was awful, from a UX perspective.  Glad to hear this framework is somewhat better.


----------



## watfly

soccersc said:


> Haha...not sure if you needed to write all that because nobody really listens to you or you are just bored at work...the best one was the last one though...I haven't read one time in the entire post when somebody said don't get vaccinated..lol... but I think in your mind things work a little differently


You do realize he doesn't write these for anyone but himself.  He loves to hear himself talk and debate his imaginary bogeymen.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Which studies are you referring to?  Facts seem to escape you.  But great job on spitting out agendas and talking points.
> 
> You truly live in lala land.  Thank goodness you are the savior of all truth.  Thanks for explaining yourself and everything, amazing job.  I think this thread has reached it's peak.  Masks as you know them don't really work, vaccine data for ulittles is all over the place.  You have little grasp of anything related to health and science.  But you are entertaining, which is what matters most.


Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.

Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.

Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.
[/QUOTE]
wut?  Great mastery of the search tool.  Didn't address anything of substance.  I'm glad you feel good about escalation and retaliation.  Again, nothing of substance.  I was expecting you to flex your muscle on science and health.  Not.


----------



## Grace T.

what-happened said:


> Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.
> 
> Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.
> 
> Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.
> wut?  Great mastery of the search tool.  Didn't address anything of substance.  I'm glad you feel good about escalation and retaliation.  Again, nothing of substance.  I was expecting you to flex your muscle on science and health.  Not.


Wow. I don’t bother with eotls posts since I unmasked him but since your quote function was accidentally misplaced I got to see this masterpiece. That’s either some serious timeage with a search engine, some serious eidetic memory or even worse going through each and every post.  Took no doubt quite a bit of time.  Impressive from a master troll perspective (he could teach the others, both right and left, a class). But It’s also quite literally, in all its aspects, just plain bat shit crazy, even for a troll.


----------



## espola

espola said:


> The search engine is not as good as google, but I might not have stretched its limits.  I remember the bad old days of SQL that allowed precise searches, but google-like search engines are more user-friendly.


A simple search engine can yield some interesting results.  For example, I once asked grace "What's a covidian", since I was not familiar with that term.  Grace responded, "We've covered that already".  The search engine found no such coverage.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Wow. I don’t bother with eotls posts since I unmasked him but since your quote function was accidentally misplaced I got to see this masterpiece. That’s either some serious timeage with a search engine, some serious eidetic memory or even worse going through each and every post.  Took no doubt quite a bit of time.  Impressive from a master troll perspective (he could teach the others, both right and left, a class). But It’s also quite literally, in all its aspects, just plain bat shit crazy, even for a troll.


You can also use your browser word search function (control-F) on each page of the thread, looking for keywords.

Of course, it doesn't understand ethereal concepts, such as "find all of Grace's ad hominem statements".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Hong Kong is shaping up to be a disaster, due to the low elderly vaccination rate and an immuno naive population.  Omicron is having a heavy edge, which means it might not be so much less lethal as it is infecting a planet with plenty of vaccine and natural immunity.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503420672940380173


Estimating the latest variant of Omicron is 80% more transmissible. Good luck avoiding that. I sure hope what I had 3 weeks ago was omicron. Version 2 will be tough to avoid.









						This key indicator may determine how bad a BA.2 wave could be in the US | CNN
					

As America casts a wary eye on rising cases caused by the BA.2 subvariant in Europe, the immune status of adults over the age of 65 will be a key indicator of how future variants will affect the US.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Wow. I don’t bother with eotls posts since I unmasked him but since your quote function was accidentally misplaced I got to see this masterpiece. That’s either some serious timeage with a search engine, some serious eidetic memory or even worse going through each and every post.  Took no doubt quite a bit of time.  Impressive from a master troll perspective (he could teach the others, both right and left, a class). But It’s also quite literally, in all its aspects, just plain bat shit crazy, even for a troll.


It was quite impressive - too bad I screwed up the quote function so bad.  At least you were able to get the whole thing.


----------



## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> Wow. I don’t bother with eotls posts since I unmasked him but since your quote function was accidentally misplaced I got to see this masterpiece. That’s either some serious timeage with a search engine, some serious eidetic memory or even worse going through each and every post.  Took no doubt quite a bit of time.  Impressive from a master troll perspective (he could teach the others, both right and left, a class). But It’s also quite literally, in all its aspects, just plain bat shit crazy, even for a troll.


Ah, is Grace the unemployed and never held a paying job in her adult life upset she doesn't get to be the only one to call people names?


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Which studies are you referring to?  Facts seem to escape you.  But great job on spitting out agendas and talking points.
> 
> You truly live in lala land.  Thank goodness you are the savior of all truth.  Thanks for explaining yourself and everything, amazing job.  I think this thread has reached it's peak.  Masks as you know them don't really work, vaccine data for ulittles is all over the place.  You have little grasp of anything related to health and science.  But you are entertaining, which is what matters most.


Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.

Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.

Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.
[/QUOTE]

Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.
> 
> Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.
> 
> Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.


Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues
[/QUOTE]
Some do research others just go on “their gut” or something from Twitter. 
“Who have you been consulting with sir?”
“Myself”


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


Some do research others just go on “their gut” or something from Twitter.
“Who have you been consulting with sir?”
“Myself”
[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about??? The guy went through a bunch of old post and you call that research??? LOL I call that sad


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Weird how I’m the guy who isn’t respectful. Let’s see how this thread went before I ever said anything.
> 
> Posts #22 and 26 anti-vaxxer/masker Multisport referred to dad4 as Mr. Magoo and coocoo. #50, crush started posting memes the first relating to needing to be unvaccinated to get into a business and accusing vaccinated people of engaging in treasonous anti-american stupidity. #56, Grace accuses dad4 of being authoritarian because he supported kids wearing masks in schools, which is pretty hilarious for a “legal expert” given that mask requirements are the result of elected executives enforcing laws enacted by elected legislators. At #56 Desert Hound accused espola of needing to work on his reading comprehension. At #65, Watfly made a homophobic about “identifying as a woman”. At #70, Grace the unemployed also accused espola of having reading comprehension issues. At #73 she calls him an idiot and at #81, she also calls him Mr. Magoo (which she also does at 623, 879, 1063, 1226); At #81, Grace mocked dad4 as “math boy” and then Crush piled on calling dad4 “mask boy” and accusing him of wanting to hide his face for some reason. At post #86, NooB mocked espola for “sharing your stink”. At #91, crush was posting memes again and calling people who disagreed with him “sickos” and “evil”. At #98, crush called someone an asshole and accused them of threatening him (not me btw since I hadn’t posted anything yet). At #102, Kicker4life chimed in blaming illegal aliens for not showing proof of vaccination when crossing the border and tjinaz jumped onto the xenophobic bandwagon at 104. At #130 what-happened (That's you!) made an incomprehensible pejorative comment about wearing “finger typing gloves” to espola. At #144, crush “exposed” espola as EOTL and called him “uncle cheater”. At #146 bruddah iz calls espola an idiot. At #149, crush calls espola “uncle liar”, then “cheater and liar” at #151 and 152, and tells him he robs others of life, has no heart and only uses 4% of his brain. By #153, he’s so riled up that he’s accusing anyone who believes Dr. Fauci of being liars, murderers, cheaters, rapists, racists, and evil monsters. By #336, Watfly has started the trope of anyone who doesn’t believe what he wants is engaged in “groupthink”. At #408 kickingandscreaming is mocking someone because Grace gave them too much credit in their thought process. At #460 Grace called espola idiotic and accused him of being a troll, and in #464 called him the “biggest of moronic trolls”. At #528, Grace the idiot is mocking dad4 about “very basic basic points”. At #601, crush is mocking NorCalDad’s pro-vax position with a meme of a steroid stuffed biker. At #613, Grace is calling espola idiotic again, claiming he total lacks comprehension and being a “sock puppet” and “living out a fantasy”, but not being as clever as EOTL and Husker. At #617 and 619, Grace called espola a fool, and, and moron at 653, and “struggling” at 660. At #676 crush is accusing dad4 of being controlled by fear. #790 bruddah IZ calling espola “et al-spola”; #806 Toors calls espola a fool; #857 Grace is accusing Yours in futbol of being a clone of espola, or dad4, or EOTL; #866 Bruddah iz goes xeno again and tells yours in futbol to wear a mask because it “makes them feel like women in the middle east#985 Grace refers to everyone calling out her bs as on “team panic” and trashing “newbies”, #990 Grace calls espola a troll, liar and idiot, #994 met61 calls espola a pedo freak; #1032 bruddah iz accuses dad4 of “fragility”; #1077 Watfly says dad4 would throw children out of a lifeboat to save his own life; #1092 crush calls NOVA.Dad an asshole; #1093 met61 calls dad4 small and cowardly.
> 
> Sure, I'm the problem. I'm just a product of my surroundings.


Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues
[/QUOTE]

I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> Estimating the latest variant of Omicron is 80% more transmissible. Good luck avoiding that. I sure hope what I had 3 weeks ago was omicron. Version 2 will be tough to avoid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This key indicator may determine how bad a BA.2 wave could be in the US | CNN
> 
> 
> As America casts a wary eye on rising cases caused by the BA.2 subvariant in Europe, the immune status of adults over the age of 65 will be a key indicator of how future variants will affect the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


We need to keep an eye on BA.2, but I think the CNN article was unnecessarily alarmist and somewhat misleading.  Here is a better synopsis of BA.2 that should not be behind a paywall (https://www.nytimes.com/article/omicron-variant-ba2.html).

CNN: "its 80% more transmissible".

What the UK data actually says: "The overall proportion of SGTP (ie a PCR way to distinguish BA.2 from BA.1) amongst cases tested by the relevant assay in England on 6 March 2022 is 83.3% compared to 52.1% on 20 February 2022 (my emphasis with underlining).

So in the UK right now 1) there an uptick in cases-not really clear if its a new wave; 2) BA.1 is being replaced by BA.2 as the predominant sub-lineage of omicron.

Some of that uptick is probably due to an increase in transmissibility associated with BA.2.  But it also corresponds with changes in epidemiological policy in several countries, potentially allowing increased infections.  And in some countries-In Denmark, for example-BA.2 IS that countries omicron wave; its not a different wave.  And in Hong Kong, after hunkering down for so long they just ended up deciding to let it roll and having a dry tinder wave like Sweden did at the beginning.  Sad, but that's what it is.

Immunologically, so far BA.1 and BA.2 are pretty similar.  So, if you got the omicron/BA.1 variant recently you are probably OK with respect to anything that happens with omicron/BA.2.  Especially if you had a pretty common sequence of events in the US like vaxx, eventual Ab titer drop, then got omicron.  Even if wasn't a severe infection, you should get a nice vaxx+infect synergism, which should jack up your Ab titers pretty good for 6 months or so.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.
[/QUOTE]

HAHA...you are good, I am so defeated. I might have to go bury my head now LOL


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Estimating the latest variant of Omicron is 80% more transmissible. Good luck avoiding that. I sure hope what I had 3 weeks ago was omicron. Version 2 will be tough to avoid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This key indicator may determine how bad a BA.2 wave could be in the US | CNN
> 
> 
> As America casts a wary eye on rising cases caused by the BA.2 subvariant in Europe, the immune status of adults over the age of 65 will be a key indicator of how future variants will affect the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I don’t think BA.2 is going to cause a major spike.  

First, version 2 has to grow among those who didn’t get version 1.   That takes a big chunk of potential hosts off the table.  

Second, BA.2 is here.  It’s growing as a share of total cases, but much of that is the sharp decline in BA.1.   For the actual growth rare, look at the last ten days in England.  26k to 59k.   8-9 days to double.

That’s much slower than omicron.  Wave, but no tsunami.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.
[/QUOTE]
have you tuned into the CDC today and checked out their latest small error in reporting?  Probably not.  In your ravenous consumption and interpration of scientific studies and health data, CDC f*ups likely rate low on your priority list.  Oh, I dont' know if CDC reporting errors are influenced by homophobia, racism, and bullying - I'll leave that up to you fact check, just in case science is being influenced by homophobia, racism, et al..

You are way to fun to place on ignore. I appreciate you standing on the wall for us.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.
[/QUOTE]

Have you ever been around a middle schooler or know any kids around that age? No, you don't, it is evident in your responses. You clearly have lost touch with reality and have no idea what's going on in the real world.  Do you just sit at the computer and never socialize with anyone? Emotionally frail, you really don't get it

Funny you feel that I think you are mean to me, that makes me laugh.  You think I care about your insults, don't flatter yourself, hahaha.  I just like listening to your nonsense like @what-happened says, way too fun to put on ignore


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Some do research others just go on “their gut” or something from Twitter.
> “Who have you been consulting with sir?”
> “Myself”


What are you talking about??? The guy went through a bunch of old post and you call that research??? LOL I call that sad
[/QUOTE]
That poster is backing their talk and pointing out hypocrisy. What do you do besides hyperbole and anger?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.


Have you ever been around a middle schooler or know any kids around that age? No, you don't, it is evident in your responses. You clearly have lost touch with reality and have no idea what's going on in the real world.  Do you just sit at the computer and never socialize with anyone? Emotionally frail, you really don't get it

Funny you feel that I think you are mean to me, that makes me laugh.  You think I care about your insults, don't flatter yourself, hahaha.  I just like listening to your nonsense like @what-happened says, way too fun to put on ignore
[/QUOTE]
So instead of explaining your point you ramble on about how he doesn’t understand how you feel about how middle schoolers feel? And act as if they all feel the same way.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> Have you ever been around a middle schooler or know any kids around that age? No, you don't, it is evident in your responses. You clearly have lost touch with reality and have no idea what's going on in the real world.  Do you just sit at the computer and never socialize with anyone? Emotionally frail, you really don't get it
> 
> Funny you feel that I think you are mean to me, that makes me laugh.  You think I care about your insults, don't flatter yourself, hahaha.  I just like listening to your nonsense like @what-happened says, way too fun to put on ignore


So instead of explaining your point you ramble on about how he doesn’t understand how you feel about how middle schoolers feel? And act as if they all feel the same way.
[/QUOTE]

You @GoldenGate are exactly the same. I have explained how kids in middle school are being affected by mask wearing.  Kids are afraid to take off their mask because they haven't been seen by their classmates without masks, ever...they have had to wear mask for 2 years and in middle school you are combined with the other elementary schools in the area, thus not ever seeing the students you are now in school with.  Just like data is coming out about how bad learning online for a year and a half was, there will soon be data showing the social and emotional effect this this taking on kids 12-15 especially.  If you don't have, or never had, kids that age, you won't get it.  If you want to know about it, ask someone who does, or go to a middle school and see for yourself.  If smart guy @GoldenGate thinks they are soft, then so be it, you can call it whatever you want, but calling them names isn't going to negate the fact that they are being affected in a negative way.

I do find it odd though that he cares so much about people getting covid and getting vaccinated, but he doesn't care if kids emotionally affected? So, I guess you just pick and choose what you feel like defending at any given point.  The well being of all people doesn't really matter? So, just focus well being of those that get vaccinated...got it


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> So instead of explaining your point you ramble on about how he doesn’t understand how you feel about how middle schoolers feel? And act as if they all feel the same way.


You @GoldenGate are exactly the same. I have explained how kids in middle school are being affected by mask wearing.  Kids are afraid to take off their mask because they haven't been seen by their classmates without masks, ever...they have had to wear mask for 2 years and in middle school you are combined with the other elementary schools in the area, thus not ever seeing the students you are now in school with.  Just like data is coming out about how bad learning online for a year and a half was, there will soon be data showing the social and emotional effect this this taking on kids 12-15 especially.  If you don't have, or never had, kids that age, you won't get it.  If you want to know about it, ask someone who does, or go to a middle school and see for yourself.  If smart guy @GoldenGate thinks they are soft, then so be it, you can call it whatever you want, but calling them names isn't going to negate the fact that they are being affected in a negative way.

I do find it odd though that he cares so much about people getting covid and getting vaccinated, but he doesn't care if kids emotionally affected? So, I guess you just pick and choose what you feel like defending at any given point.  The well being of all people doesn't really matter? So, just focus well being of those that get vaccinated...got it
[/QUOTE]

Ah, was having to wear a mask at school for a year going to cause your emotionally frail children to jump off a bridge?  Are they never going to recover from the horror?  I'm sure we'll call this generation the "Greatest Generation" given all the trauma they endured wearing masks, right? There are just so many examples of the horrors.  For me, I just can't get that one out of my head about the kid whose glasses kept getting fogged up when he was trying to Doordash a poke bowl from his smartphone.  So sad.  R.I.P. four eyes.

Or will these kids really jump off the bridge because of the negative emotional impact of having to constantly listen to their whiny snowflake parents who did nothing but complain all day long? Honestly, I am not surprised if many anti-masker/vaxxer suffer from depression given all the whining and parental pity parties they must endure in the home.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You @GoldenGate are exactly the same. I have explained how kids in middle school are being affected by mask wearing.  Kids are afraid to take off their mask because they haven't been seen by their classmates without masks, ever...they have had to wear mask for 2 years and in middle school you are combined with the other elementary schools in the area, thus not ever seeing the students you are now in school with.  Just like data is coming out about how bad learning online for a year and a half was, there will soon be data showing the social and emotional effect this this taking on kids 12-15 especially.  If you don't have, or never had, kids that age, you won't get it.  If you want to know about it, ask someone who does, or go to a middle school and see for yourself.  If smart guy @GoldenGate thinks they are soft, then so be it, you can call it whatever you want, but calling them names isn't going to negate the fact that they are being affected in a negative way.
> 
> I do find it odd though that he cares so much about people getting covid and getting vaccinated, but he doesn't care if kids emotionally affected? So, I guess you just pick and choose what you feel like defending at any given point.  The well being of all people doesn't really matter? So, just focus well being of those that get vaccinated...got it


Ah, was having to wear a mask at school for a year going to cause your emotionally frail children to jump off a bridge?  Are they never going to recover from the horror?  I'm sure we'll call this generation the "Greatest Generation" given all the trauma they endured wearing masks, right? There are just so many examples of the horrors.  For me, I just can't get that one out of my head about the kid whose glasses kept getting fogged up when he was trying to Doordash a poke bowl from his smartphone.  So sad.  R.I.P. four eyes.

Or will these kids really jump off the bridge because of the negative emotional impact of having to constantly listen to their whiny snowflake parents who did nothing but complain all day long? Honestly, I am not surprised if many anti-masker/vaxxer suffer from depression given all the whining and parental pity parties they must endure in the home.
[/QUOTE]
you must be on spring break.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> You @GoldenGate are exactly the same. I have explained how kids in middle school are being affected by mask wearing.  Kids are afraid to take off their mask because they haven't been seen by their classmates without masks, ever...they have had to wear mask for 2 years and in middle school you are combined with the other elementary schools in the area, thus not ever seeing the students you are now in school with.  Just like data is coming out about how bad learning online for a year and a half was, there will soon be data showing the social and emotional effect this this taking on kids 12-15 especially.  If you don't have, or never had, kids that age, you won't get it.  If you want to know about it, ask someone who does, or go to a middle school and see for yourself.  If smart guy @GoldenGate thinks they are soft, then so be it, you can call it whatever you want, but calling them names isn't going to negate the fact that they are being affected in a negative way.
> 
> I do find it odd though that he cares so much about people getting covid and getting vaccinated, but he doesn't care if kids emotionally affected? So, I guess you just pick and choose what you feel like defending at any given point.  The well being of all people doesn't really matter? So, just focus well being of those that get vaccinated...got it


Ah, was having to wear a mask at school for a year going to cause your emotionally frail children to jump off a bridge?  Are they never going to recover from the horror?  I'm sure we'll call this generation the "Greatest Generation" given all the trauma they endured wearing masks, right? There are just so many examples of the horrors.  For me, I just can't get that one out of my head about the kid whose glasses kept getting fogged up when he was trying to Doordash a poke bowl from his smartphone.  So sad.  R.I.P. four eyes.

Or will these kids really jump off the bridge because of the negative emotional impact of having to constantly listen to their whiny snowflake parents who did nothing but complain all day long? Honestly, I am not surprised if many anti-masker/vaxxer suffer from depression given all the whining and parental pity parties they must endure in the home.
[/QUOTE]
You actually might be the dumbest person I have ever tried to talk to…good thing you don’t have any kids, they’d be really messed up.  Please stay at home and on your keyboard and don’t ever try and meet someone because if you did eventually did raise a kid they’d be  jacked up!!!
But you’re probably right, depression isn’t happening, kids are all going to be fine


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Thank you @dad4 and @EvilGoalie 21 for the useful posts. Lately, useful posts on this thread have been like the proverbial "needle in a haystack".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Ah, was having to wear a mask at school for a year going to cause your emotionally frail children to jump off a bridge?  Are they never going to recover from the horror?  I'm sure we'll call this generation the "Greatest Generation" given all the trauma they endured wearing masks, right? There are just so many examples of the horrors.  For me, I just can't get that one out of my head about the kid whose glasses kept getting fogged up when he was trying to Doordash a poke bowl from his smartphone.  So sad.  R.I.P. four eyes.
> 
> Or will these kids really jump off the bridge because of the negative emotional impact of having to constantly listen to their whiny snowflake parents who did nothing but complain all day long? Honestly, I am not surprised if many anti-masker/vaxxer suffer from depression given all the whining and parental pity parties they must endure in the home.


You actually might be the dumbest person I have ever tried to talk to…good thing you don’t have any kids, they’d be really messed up.  Please stay at home and on your keyboard and don’t ever try and meet someone because if you did eventually did raise a kid they’d be  jacked up!!!
But you’re probably right, depression isn’t happening, kids are all going to be fine
[/QUOTE]
Is that all you do whine, complain and attempt to disparage?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Thank you @dad4 and @EvilGoalie 21 for the useful posts. Lately, useful posts on this thread have been like the proverbial "needle in a haystack".


On the bright side things are looking better in Japan! Hopefully travel restrictions ease soon, can’t wait!








						Japan set to remove all COVID-19 restrictions as new infections ebb
					

TOKYO: Japan is set to announce on Wednesday (Mar 16) the lifting of COVID-19 restrictions imposed on Tokyo and 17 other prefectures as a wave of infections caused by the Omicron variant continues to ebb. Prime Minister Fumio Kishida is scheduled to speak at 7pm (6pm, Singapore time), when he is...




					www.channelnewsasia.com


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> You actually might be the dumbest person I have ever tried to talk to…good thing you don’t have any kids, they’d be really messed up.  Please stay at home and on your keyboard and don’t ever try and meet someone because if you did eventually did raise a kid they’d be  jacked up!!!
> But you’re probably right, depression isn’t happening, kids are all going to be fine


Is that all you do whine, complain and attempt to disparage?
[/QUOTE]

i tried to speak logically to that guy but he doesn’t listen


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Is that all you do whine, complain and attempt to disparage?


i tried to speak logically to that guy but he doesn’t listen
[/QUOTE]
I’d have to take your word on that.


----------



## Desert Hound

I corrected part of the sentence below. At some point we have to stop this crap. 

_Lia Thomas took control in the final 100 yards of the 500-yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman *MAN* to win an NCAA *WOMANS* swimming championship.









						Lia Thomas becomes 1st transgender woman to win NCAA swimming championship
					

Thomas has followed NCAA and Ivy League rules since she began her transition in 2019 by starting hormone replacement therapy.




					www.today.com
				



_


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> So you're saying masks don't kill people?  So why are you so scared of them? Are you suffering from depression and on the verge of slashing your wrists because a mask is too much for you?  It is just too hard for you to take living anymore?


Still drinking from that Govt garden hose of talking points I see.....

Instead of arguing with your shadow, look up these VALID 
patents of US COVID Viruses. 

Obama legalized the use of propaganda on the U.S. population. 
Signed HR 4310 on 12/29/12.

Section 1078 (thomas.loc. gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.4310 
of the bill* authorizes the use of propaganda inside the US*, which 
had previously been banned since 1948 when the Smith-Mundt Act 
was passed. 

H.R.4310 - 112th Congress (2011-2012): National Defense Authorization 
Act for Fiscal Year 2013 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

And the construction of COVID-19 Virus starts. 

Look at the patent dates below.

2008-04-15 Priority to US4522808P
*2014-08-18 Application filed by Protiva Biotherapeutics Inc*
2015-06-18 Publication of US20150164799A1
2016-06-14 Application granted
2016-06-14 Publication of US9364435B2
2018-03-05 First worldwide family litigation filed

Arbutus’ U.S. Patent No. 8,058,069 (IPR2019-00554 filed January 9, 2019: no challenged claims found unpatentable),

2008-04-15 Priority to US4522808P
*2009-04-15 Application filed by Protiva Biotherapeutics Inc*
2010-05-27 Publication of US20100130588A1
2011-11-15 Publication of US8058069B2
2011-11-15 Application granted
2018-03-05 First worldwide family litigation filed
*************************
Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc

2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618953P
*2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
2014-05-22 Publication of US20140141067A1
2015-10-06 Publication of US9149506B2
2015-10-06 Application granted
2020-01-10 First worldwide family litigation filed

US9216205B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding granulysin –

Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc

2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618873P
*2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
2014-04-24 Publication of US20140113960A1
2015-12-22 Publication of US9216205B2
2015-12-22 Application granted

US9255129B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding SIAH E3 ubiquitin protein ligase 1 –

Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc

2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618868P
*2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
2014-05-22 Publication of US20140141068A1
2016-02-09 Application granted
2016-02-09 Publication of US9255129B2

US9301993B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding apoptosis inducing factor 1 –

Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc

2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618957P
*2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
2014-04-17 Publication of US20140107189A1
2016-04-05 Application granted
2016-04-05 Publication of US9301993B2
2020-01-10 First worldwide family litigation filed


----------



## thirteenknots

Desert Hound said:


> I corrected part of the sentence below. At some point we have to stop this crap.
> 
> _Lia Thomas took control in the final 100 yards of the 500-yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman *MAN* to win an NCAA *WOMANS* swimming championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas becomes 1st transgender woman to win NCAA swimming championship
> 
> 
> Thomas has followed NCAA and Ivy League rules since she began her transition in 2019 by starting hormone replacement therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.today.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



*PURE UNADULTERATED CHEATING !!!*
*
EVERYONE OF THOSE " RECORDS " SHOULD BE 
REMOVED IMMEDIATELY !!!!!
*
*REAL WOMEN DESERVE GENUINE COMPETITION !!!!*


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> I corrected part of the sentence below. At some point we have to stop this crap.
> 
> _Lia Thomas took control in the final 100 yards of the 500-yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman *MAN* to win an NCAA *WOMANS* swimming championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas becomes 1st transgender woman to win NCAA swimming championship
> 
> 
> Thomas has followed NCAA and Ivy League rules since she began her transition in 2019 by starting hormone replacement therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.today.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


The great thing about your post is that it's people like you who are the reason this is happening.  You who aren't willing to treat transgender people with even the slightest amount of dignity and respect, which causes entities like the NCAA to determine that the need to provide opportunities for the transgender community outweighs the costs.  The angrier and more transphobic you get, the worse things will get for you.  It's fun to watch people like you lose your minds over stuff like this.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> Still drinking from that Govt garden hose of talking points I see.....
> 
> Instead of arguing with your shadow, look up these VALID
> patents of US COVID Viruses.
> 
> Obama legalized the use of propaganda on the U.S. population.
> Signed HR 4310 on 12/29/12.
> 
> Section 1078 (thomas.loc. gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.4310
> of the bill* authorizes the use of propaganda inside the US*, which
> had previously been banned since 1948 when the Smith-Mundt Act
> was passed.
> 
> H.R.4310 - 112th Congress (2011-2012): National Defense Authorization
> Act for Fiscal Year 2013 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
> 
> And the construction of COVID-19 Virus starts.
> 
> Look at the patent dates below.
> 
> 2008-04-15 Priority to US4522808P
> *2014-08-18 Application filed by Protiva Biotherapeutics Inc*
> 2015-06-18 Publication of US20150164799A1
> 2016-06-14 Application granted
> 2016-06-14 Publication of US9364435B2
> 2018-03-05 First worldwide family litigation filed
> 
> Arbutus’ U.S. Patent No. 8,058,069 (IPR2019-00554 filed January 9, 2019: no challenged claims found unpatentable),
> 
> 2008-04-15 Priority to US4522808P
> *2009-04-15 Application filed by Protiva Biotherapeutics Inc*
> 2010-05-27 Publication of US20100130588A1
> 2011-11-15 Publication of US8058069B2
> 2011-11-15 Application granted
> 2018-03-05 First worldwide family litigation filed
> *************************
> Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
> Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc
> 
> 2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618953P
> *2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
> 2014-05-22 Publication of US20140141067A1
> 2015-10-06 Publication of US9149506B2
> 2015-10-06 Application granted
> 2020-01-10 First worldwide family litigation filed
> 
> US9216205B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding granulysin –
> 
> Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
> Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc
> 
> 2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618873P
> *2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
> 2014-04-24 Publication of US20140113960A1
> 2015-12-22 Publication of US9216205B2
> 2015-12-22 Application granted
> 
> US9255129B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding SIAH E3 ubiquitin protein ligase 1 –
> 
> Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
> Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc
> 
> 2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618868P
> *2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
> 2014-05-22 Publication of US20140141068A1
> 2016-02-09 Application granted
> 2016-02-09 Publication of US9255129B2
> 
> US9301993B2: Modified polynucleotides encoding apoptosis inducing factor 1 –
> 
> Inventor: Tirtha Chakraborty, Antonin de Fougerolles
> Current Assignee: ModernaTx Inc
> 
> 2012-04-02 Priority to US201261618957P
> *2013-12-16 Application filed by Moderna Therapeutics Inc*
> 2014-04-17 Publication of US20140107189A1
> 2016-04-05 Application granted
> 2016-04-05 Publication of US9301993B2
> 2020-01-10 First worldwide family litigation filed


Gosh, this goes much deeper than we originally believed.  Quick question though.  If all of this vaccine prep really started in 2012, doesn't that pretty much obliterate all your anti-vaxxer friends' arguments that it hasn't been in development long enough to be proven safe?


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> The great thing about your post is that it's people like you who are the reason this is happening.  You who aren't willing to treat transgender people with even the slightest amount of dignity and respect, which causes entities like the NCAA to determine that the need to provide opportunities for the transgender community outweighs the costs.  The angrier and more transphobic you get, the worse things will get for you.  It's fun to watch people like you lose your minds over stuff like this.



No one I see on this Forum has displayed " Transphobic " that I see other than You.

I do believe the comments say it's CHEATING. 

Very Very unfair at the least.

How about the NCAA do the right thing and create two more
classes of competition.

That's pretty simple. 

Problem solved.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Gosh, this goes much deeper than we originally believed.  Quick question though.  If all of this vaccine prep really started in 2012, doesn't that pretty much obliterate all your anti-vaxxer friends' arguments that it hasn't been in development long enough to be proven safe?


Not in the least.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The great thing about your post is that it's people like you who are the reason this is happening.  You who aren't willing to treat transgender people with even the slightest amount of dignity and respect, which causes entities like the NCAA to determine that the need to provide opportunities for the transgender community outweighs the costs.  The angrier and more transphobic you get, the worse things will get for you.  It's fun to watch people like you lose your minds over stuff like this.


huh...how?  and who's being phobic about anything?  I guess we throw science/biology out the window. Rant all the ideology you want, he just beat the crap out of a really good field in that particular race.  Please send out hateful messages to the girls who finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.  I'm glad you worship at the pew of the pious NCAA. 

but please carry on.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Gosh, this goes much deeper than we originally believed.  Quick question though.  If all of this vaccine prep really started in 2012, doesn't that pretty much obliterate all your anti-vaxxer friends' arguments that it hasn't been in development long enough to be proven safe?


That reminds me of the trump is still secretly president belief amongst the nutter brigade.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> That reminds me of the trump is still secretly president belief amongst the nutter brigade.


Urine Idiot.
The " Residents " are Biden/Harris.
And they are doing to America what Sherman did to
Georgia.



Kapish, Hüsker Dü.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I corrected part of the sentence below. At some point we have to stop this crap.
> 
> _Lia Thomas took control in the final 100 yards of the 500-yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman *MAN* to win an NCAA *WOMANS* swimming championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas becomes 1st transgender woman to win NCAA swimming championship
> 
> 
> Thomas has followed NCAA and Ivy League rules since she began her transition in 2019 by starting hormone replacement therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.today.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Dude...this was maybe the saddest post I have ever seen from you...you actually spent time going through all that...hahahaha...that some serious issues


I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.
[/QUOTE]

@GoldenGate maybe you should attend this event and let all of them know that we should stop raising snowflakes...what does the Surgeon General know anyway or any of those doctors on the panel...you're much smarter than all of them!!! Weak minded fail kids, who needs them, right? 









						State of the Kids: Uniting for Youth Mental Health
					

Join us for a  nationwide virtual event to chart a healthier way forward for our kids.




					www.eventbrite.com


----------



## Osiris

Has anyone seen my little brother Seth?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Osiris said:


> Has anyone seen my little brother Seth?


You mean Set right?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> I corrected part of the sentence below. At some point we have to stop this crap.
> 
> _Lia Thomas took control in the final 100 yards of the 500-yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman *MAN* to win an NCAA *WOMANS* swimming championship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lia Thomas becomes 1st transgender woman to win NCAA swimming championship
> 
> 
> Thomas has followed NCAA and Ivy League rules since she began her transition in 2019 by starting hormone replacement therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.today.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _











						GOP governors veto anti-trans sports bans in Indiana and Utah | CNN Politics
					

The governors of Indiana and Utah vetoed anti-trans sports bans in their states this week, bucking GOP lawmakers in rare moments of public disapproval of the controversial measures by Republican state leaders.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> GOP governors veto anti-trans sports bans in Indiana and Utah | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> The governors of Indiana and Utah vetoed anti-trans sports bans in their states this week, bucking GOP lawmakers in rare moments of public disapproval of the controversial measures by Republican state leaders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Did you read the study?


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> I am not surprised you are having a hard time.  Do you know what is actually sad?  Sad is feeble-minded people like you and your friends regurgitating tweets and tik tok links that misrepresent what scientific studies say because you lack the attention span and brainpower to spend two minutes reading let alone understanding, what they actually say.  It is sad how much you bury your head in the sand about the homophobia, racism and bullying from you and your friends.  It is sad that you need to pretend none of it is happening when you try to frame me as a bad guy who is so unfairly mean to you.  It's sad seeing all of you whine about how you and your kids are too emotionally frail to wear a mask. How big a snowflake are you?  If you can only dish out insults but can't take them in return, you really should consider joining Grace in her fact free safe space and put me on ignore.


@GoldenGate maybe you should attend this event and let all of them know that we should stop raising snowflakes...what does the Surgeon General know anyway or any of those doctors on the panel...you're much smarter than all of them!!! Weak minded fail kids, who needs them, right?









						State of the Kids: Uniting for Youth Mental Health
					

Join us for a  nationwide virtual event to chart a healthier way forward for our kids.




					www.eventbrite.com
				



[/QUOTE]

Uh, the Surgeon General has supported masks in schools.  The irony here is, yet again, you fail to even look into what you have cited is even about. It is not a seminar about the horrors of wearing masks at school.  It isn't a pity party about how wearing masks has ruined our kids.  Ironically, the main focus of the seminar is about trying to turn around idiot self-pitying anti-mask parents like yourself, who are the real culprits that are causing kids to slash their wrists. In fact, here's a great interview of one of the participants at the event you identified discussing how it's the whiny parents who are causing depression in their kids, not masks.





__





						The Indianapolis Star
					






					www.indystar.com
				




It is mind-boggling how stupid you are.  You are like crush in that you refuse to take responsibility for the impacts of your own behavior and are so clueless that you can't even figure out that you're the problem causing depression in your kids, not masks.  Honestly, it is crazy that you're pinning depression in children on having to wear masks at school, when it is plainly obvious that so many kids are depressed because they come home to parents like you who do nothing but feel sorry for themselves. You might want to unload any firearms you have in the house.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Did you read the study?


Study? I read the article. Seems some Republicans realize the nuances involved.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Study? I read the article. Seems some Republicans realize the nuances involved.


Nuance?

We’re talking a pretty simple point here.  Women’s sports are for women.  If you are not actually a woman, you don’t qualify.

Pushing this nonsense is just creating anger at the trans community.  A trans female who competes in the men’s division for the love of sport is easy to accept and cheer for.  A trans female who takes a woman’s medal will be hated, the same as people hate flight 1 teams who down register to snag the flight 3 trophy.

That doesn’t mean trans athletes can’t play sports.  It just means they should enter a competition for which they do qualify, and the rest of us should welcome them when they do.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Nuance?
> 
> We’re talking a pretty simple point here.  Women’s sports are for women.  If you are not actually a woman, you don’t qualify.
> 
> Pushing this nonsense is just creating anger at the trans community.  A trans female who competes in the men’s division for the love of sport is easy to accept and cheer for.  A trans female who takes a woman’s medal will be hated, the same as people hate flight 1 teams who down register to snag the flight 3 trophy.
> 
> That doesn’t mean trans athletes can’t play sports.  It just means they should enter a competition for which they do qualify, and the rest of us should welcome them when they do.


Did you read the article? The governor said the proposed bill is too broad in scope, he wants the bill to be more specific. If you read the article you’d know why, it’s pretty simple.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you read the article? The governor said the proposed bill is too broad in scope, he wants the bill to be more specific. If you read the article you’d know why, it’s pretty simple.


I read it.   But I am not criticizing the veto.  The bill itself may well have been overbroad.  I would not know, as I have not read the bill itself.

I am criticizing the inclusion of men into top level women’s sports events.  If a person is content to live her life as a woman and go about her business, I support her right to enter the women’s division of the local 10K race and receive her time hoping for a personal best.  Best of luck to her.

But, if that same person chooses an event which he can win because he has a testosterone boost and others do not, then he is cheating.  He has no right to displace the woman who won the woman’s division of that race.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Study? I read the article. Seems some Republicans realize the nuances involved.


guess you didn't read the study referenced in your own link.  nice job


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you read the article? The governor said the proposed bill is too broad in scope, he wants the bill to be more specific. If you read the article you’d know why, it’s pretty simple.


say this again about 20 times and you will see how silly the article is.  I wonder what the specificity is going to look like?  pre puberty, post puberty.  waiting for science and biology to change?  You are entrenched in partisan BS.  BS is BS, regardless if it's coming out of an elephant or an ass.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Nuance?
> 
> We’re talking a pretty simple point here.  Women’s sports are for women.  If you are not actually a woman, you don’t qualify.
> 
> Pushing this nonsense is just creating anger at the trans community.  A trans female who competes in the men’s division for the love of sport is easy to accept and cheer for.  A trans female who takes a woman’s medal will be hated, the same as people hate flight 1 teams who down register to snag the flight 3 trophy.
> 
> That doesn’t mean trans athletes can’t play sports.  It just means they should enter a competition for which they do qualify, and the rest of us should welcome them when they do.


Please cite the law that says women's sports are for biological women only.  Please also cite the law that says the NCAA can't implement its own participation requirements.  I can't seem to find them anywhere.

Your assertion that "the rest of us should welcome them" is cute, but it disregards reality.  Too many people don't want transgender people in sports; they don't want them in their businesses trying to buy cakes, flowers, photography services or anything they don't want to sell them; they don't want them getting married; they certainly don't want them having kids; they don't want them adopting kids; they don't want them being able to pay reduced taxes like traditional married couples; and too many people don't want them alive at all.  

Why exactly is it that you're angry with the "trans community" because one trans athlete won a swim race anyway?  Transphobia, that is why.  Should  we also be angry with the "straight community" because straight football players are 9x more likely to rape or beat someone than other students? Or do you think that transgender people would be better off if they just knew their place?


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> say this again about 20 times and you will see how silly the article is.  I wonder what the specificity is going to look like?  pre puberty, post puberty.  waiting for science and biology to change?  You are entrenched in partisan BS.  BS is BS, regardless if it's coming out of an elephant or an ass.


Actually, you are the only one entrenched in partisan b.s.  You're the one who refuses to even consider the legitimate reasons why the NCAA allows transgender participation. It would be one thing if you just weighed pros and cons differently than the NCAA, but that is not the case. Husker, on the other hand, has a very good understanding of the legitimate arguments on the other side, but also the bs transphobic ones you and your friends also make.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are the only one entrenched in partisan b.s.  You're the one who refuses to even consider the legitimate reasons why the NCAA allows transgender participation. It would be one thing if you just weighed pros and cons differently than the NCAA, but that is not the case. Husker, on the other hand, has a very good understanding of the legitimate arguments on the other side, but also the bs transphobic ones you and your friends also make.


Again - for the first time in history, the NCAA used a pace car with a dick in the *women's *500 Freestyle national championship race.

BTW, congrats to Virginia Tech's Emma Weyant for winning the *women's *500 freestyle and claiming the NCAA *women's *national champion title. Well done young lady!


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> Please cite the law that says women's sports are for biological women only.  Please also cite the law that says the NCAA can't implement its own participation requirements.  I can't seem to find them anywhere.
> 
> Your assertion that "the rest of us should welcome them" is cute, but it disregards reality.  Too many people don't want transgender people in sports; they don't want them in their businesses trying to buy cakes, flowers, photography services or anything they don't want to sell them; they don't want them getting married; they certainly don't want them having kids; they don't want them adopting kids; they don't want them being able to pay reduced taxes like traditional married couples; and too many people don't want them alive at all.
> 
> Why exactly is it that you're angry with the "trans community" because one trans athlete won a swim race anyway?  Transphobia, that is why.  Should  we also be angry with the "straight community" because straight football players are 9x more likely to rape or beat someone than other students? Or do you think that transgender people would be better off if they just knew their place?


Law?  I did not say it was a legal question.

I do say that any man who steps onto the podium in a women’s event is a dick.  

Which is what this is about.  As long as the trans community insists on placing men in women‘s sports, you’re arguing “I am going to be a dick. Now accept me.”

The world doesn’t work like that.   If you’re a dick, people shun you.  

This is why half the site has you on ignore.  They shun you because you’re being a dick.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Law?  I did not say it was a legal question.
> 
> I do say that any man who steps onto the podium in a women’s event is a dick.
> 
> Which is what this is about.  As long as the trans community insists on placing men in women‘s sports, you’re arguing “I am going to be a dick. Now accept me.”
> 
> The world doesn’t work like that.   If you’re a dick, people shun you.
> 
> This is why half the site has you on ignore.  They shun you because you’re being a dick.


Succinctly put.  My only question is, is they being a dick or a pussy?  I think we have to be careful there not to offend anyone.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Law?  I did not say it was a legal question.
> 
> I do say that any man who steps onto the podium in a women’s event is a dick.
> 
> Which is what this is about.  As long as the trans community insists on placing men in women‘s sports, you’re arguing “I am going to be a dick. Now accept me.”
> 
> The world doesn’t work like that.   If you’re a dick, people shun you.
> 
> This is why half the site has you on ignore.  They shun you because you’re being a dick.


Why are you lumping the entire "trans community" into something that only a handful of trans individuals have ever wanted to do?  Do all football players support rape and domestic violence because some of them engage in it?  

What this is really about is the terrible manner in which too many people have treated transgender people, so the NCAA is doing something about it.  College sports is just a game, and someone's hurt feelings that they came in second place in a swim meet is inconsequential compared to the NCAA's reasons.

There are people who shun me because they are dicks so I give them what they deserve.  The only people being dicks here are the ones who refuse to even acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons the NCAA, the IOC, and most sports governing bodies are doing what they're doing.  It's one thing to believe the cons outweigh the pros, but you and your dick friends aren't even willing to listen.  And if I'm such a bad guy, why is it that the NCAA, the IOC, and most sports governing bodies agree with me?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Succinctly put.  My only question is, is they being a dick or a pussy?  I think we have to be careful there not to offend anyone.


I love this.  Again, it is people like you who are the reason this is happening.  Keep up the work.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Again - for the first time in history, the NCAA used a pace car with a dick in the *women's *500 Freestyle national championship race.
> 
> BTW, congrats to Virginia Tech's Emma Weyant for winning the *women's *500 freestyle and claiming the NCAA *women's *national champion title. Well done young lady!


It is great to see people like you validating why the NCAA is doing what it's doing. I am thoroughly enjoying watching all of you throwing fits like little babies.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> It is great to see people like you validating why the NCAA is doing what it's doing. I am thoroughly enjoying watching all of you throwing fits like little babies.


GFY!


----------



## watfly

It's interesting how many of the far left's policies either ignore or don't understand cause and effect.  The message is more important than the impacts. Females are the biggest victims of woke policies.  Not sure why they favor biological males over females.

There is an odd element of misogyny that seems to infect leftists.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are the only one entrenched in partisan b.s.  You're the one who refuses to even consider the legitimate reasons why the NCAA allows transgender participation. It would be one thing if you just weighed pros and cons differently than the NCAA, but that is not the case. Husker, on the other hand, has a very good understanding of the legitimate arguments on the other side, but also the bs transphobic ones you and your friends also make.


As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about - blowing smoke out of your 4th point of contact...nice job.  I'm even willing to give the NCAA a chance next year if they are willing play by the rules - which they didn't this year.  In their defense (which I hesitate to do), the NCAA did the fair thing and allowed thomas to swim.  Calling me transphobic is laughable at best but entertaining. 

Get back to me when you understand chromosomes, puberty, hormones and all of that stuff. The NCAA needs to step up and properly address this issue...or not..


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Why are you lumping the entire "trans community" into something that only a handful of trans individuals have ever wanted to do?  Do all football players support rape and domestic violence because some of them engage in it?
> 
> What this is really about is the terrible manner in which too many people have treated transgender people, so the NCAA is doing something about it.  College sports is just a game, and someone's hurt feelings that they came in second place in a swim meet is inconsequential compared to the NCAA's reasons.
> 
> There are people who shun me because they are dicks so I give them what they deserve.  The only people being dicks here are the ones who refuse to even acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons the NCAA, the IOC, and most sports governing bodies are doing what they're doing.  It's one thing to believe the cons outweigh the pros, but you and your dick friends aren't even willing to listen.  *And if I'm such a bad guy, why is it that the NCAA, the IOC, and most sports governing bodies agree with me*?


Oh please, the NCAA has never been motivated until now to properly address the trans athlete community.  Now that this is in the spotlight and student athletes are voicing their opinions, the NCAA will try and do something.  In this case, bad press is bad press..


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> It's interesting how many of the far left's policies either ignore or don't understand cause and effect.  The message is more important than the impacts. Females are the biggest victims of woke policies.  Not sure why they favor biological males over females.
> 
> There is an odd element of misogyny that seems to infect leftists.


The NCAA is not "far left".  The IOC is not "far left".  Nice try attempting to reclassify trans women as misogynistic men.  That's really funny.

Both of those entities fully understand how its policies impact women's sports.  Unlike you, they actually weighed the pros and cons and have reached a reasoned decision, which they continue to modify over time as they deem necessary.  Do I feel bad for the Virginia swimmer who came in second? Not really.  She has lived a life of privilege, is getting a free education and has the opportunity to swim for the USA when the trans swimmer does not (yet). She's doing fine.  It's just a race, and who wins is just not that important.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> The NCAA is not "far left".  The IOC is not "far left".  Nice try attempting to reclassify trans women as misogynistic men.  That's really funny.
> 
> Both of those entities fully understand how its policies impact women's sports.  Unlike you, they actually weighed the pros and cons and have reached a reasoned decision, which they continue to modify over time as they deem necessary.  Do I feel bad for the Virginia swimmer who came in second? Not really.  She has lived a life of privilege, is getting a free education and has the opportunity to swim for the USA when the trans swimmer does not (yet). She's doing fine.  It's just a race, and who wins is just not that important.


Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Oh please, the NCAA has never been motivated until now to properly address the trans athlete community.  Now that this is in the spotlight and student athletes are voicing their opinions, the NCAA will try and do something.  In this case, bad press is bad press..


Yeah, you're a real hero for the transgender community.  In reality, the NCAA first implemented its policy allowing transgender participation over a decade ago dumb shit, and it did so after considering a substantial amount of guidance from trans community members and conducting a substantial amount of research. 

It is only in the spotlight now because someone won at the D1 level, causing hysterical transphobes to lose their minds.  OMG, the world must be ending now that one transgender player in history has one an NCAA title in something, right?  It is so unfair that transgender people have all the advantages in life, right?  I guess that's the end of women's sports like all you clowns predicted would happen when the NCAA first began allowing transgender participation over a decade ago.  It's totally over for women's sports.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> The NCAA is not "far left".  The IOC is not "far left".  Nice try attempting to reclassify trans women as misogynistic men.  That's really funny.
> 
> Both of those entities fully understand how its policies impact women's sports.  Unlike you, they actually weighed the pros and cons and have reached a reasoned decision, which they continue to modify over time as they deem necessary.  Do I feel bad for the Virginia swimmer who came in second? Not really.  She has lived a life of privilege, is getting a free education and has the opportunity to swim for the USA when the trans swimmer does not (yet). She's doing fine.  It's just a race, and who wins is just not that important.


How did that trans swimmer do in competition prior to transitioning?


----------



## GoldenGate

All your daughters should just give up sports now.  It's over for them.  This is clearly the end of women's sports.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The NCAA is not "far left".  The IOC is not "far left".  Nice try attempting to reclassify trans women as misogynistic men.  That's really funny.
> 
> Both of those entities fully understand how its policies impact women's sports.  Unlike you, they actually weighed the pros and cons and have reached a reasoned decision, which they continue to modify over time as they deem necessary.  Do I feel bad for the Virginia swimmer who came in second? Not really.  She has lived a life of privilege, is getting a free education and has the opportunity to swim for the USA when the trans swimmer does not (yet). She's doing fine.  It's just a race, and who wins is just not that important.


...you, the NCAA, and IOC deny the truth. Package it however you want, It's not reasoned, it's living a lie...always will be.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...you, the NCAA, and IOC deny the truth. Package it however you want, It's not reasoned, it's living a lie...always will be.


The literal truth is the NCAA said she could compete.  Is there a law that says otherwise?  Does even the Bible say that trans women cannot participate in swim meets against biological women? Or just that they should be stoned to death?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> All your daughters should just give up sports now.  It's over for them.  This is clearly the end of women's sports.


Why call it women's sports?


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> Why call it women's sports?


Because she is a transgender woman.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The literal truth is the NCAA said she could compete.  Is there a law that says otherwise?  Does even the Bible say that trans women cannot participate in swim meets against biological women? Or just that they should be stoned to death?


...the NCAA said he could compete...is the literal truth. 

Pedal in lies all you want...your choice. But, mischaracterizing the truth will never make it true.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Because she is a transgender woman.


...that is a lie. He is a man...that is the truth.


----------



## met61

met61 said:


> ...the NCAA said he could compete...is the literal truth.
> 
> Pedal in lies all you want...your choice. But, mischaracterizing the truth will never make it true.


*peddle


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Yeah, you're a real hero for the transgender community.  In reality, the NCAA first implemented its policy allowing transgender participation over a decade ago dumb shit, and it did so after considering a substantial amount of guidance from trans community members and conducting a substantial amount of research.
> 
> It is only in the spotlight now because someone won at the D1 level, causing hysterical transphobes to lose their minds.  OMG, the world must be ending now that one transgender player in history has one an NCAA title in something, right?  It is so unfair that transgender people have all the advantages in life, right?  I guess that's the end of women's sports like all you clowns predicted would happen when the NCAA first began allowing transgender participation over a decade ago.  It's totally over for women's sports.


Ha.. you've completely missed the point and continue to generalize.  The NCAA has punted to US Swimming..but never mind that.

The discussion should be about inclusion and fairness.  But you'd rather blow smoke out of your ass (which is quite funny actually, now that I say it).


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The literal truth is the NCAA said she could compete.  Is there a law that says otherwise?  Does even the Bible say that trans women cannot participate in swim meets against biological women? Or just that they should be stoned to death?


No one should be stoned to death, but we should laugh more at you..Maybe it's time you enter a horse race..


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It's interesting how many of the far left's policies either ignore or don't understand cause and effect.  The message is more important than the impacts. Females are the biggest victims of woke policies.  Not sure why they favor biological males over females.
> 
> There is an odd element of misogyny that seems to infect leftists.


It's misogyny but at the core, it's fanaticism. It's a human condition and we are all prone to it if our perspective is too narrow.

fanatic; plural noun: fanatics
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I read it.   But I am not criticizing the veto.  The bill itself may well have been overbroad.  I would not know, as I have not read the bill itself.
> 
> I am criticizing the inclusion of men into top level women’s sports events.  If a person is content to live her life as a woman and go about her business, I support her right to enter the women’s division of the local 10K race and receive her time hoping for a personal best.  Best of luck to her.
> 
> But, if that same person chooses an event which he can win because he has a testosterone boost and others do not, then he is cheating.  He has no right to displace the woman who won the woman’s division of that race.


Oh I agree with that wholeheartedly, when the person is a man.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> guess you didn't read the study referenced in your own link.  nice job


And you can’t provide the link?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Oh I agree with that wholeheartedly, when the person is a man.


You keep using that word.  I do not believe it means what you think it does.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You keep using that word.  I do not believe it means what you think it does.


Like gender, sex is not binary. A person may have the genes that people may associate with being male or female, but their reproductive organs, genitals, or both may look different.









						Types of gender identity: Types and definitions
					

There are many types of gender identity. Learn more about their definitions, the difference between sex and gender, and how gender exists on a spectrum here.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You keep using that word.  I do not believe it means what you think it does.











						Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic
					

Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Utah governor becomes latest to veto transgender sports ban
					

“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,” Cox wrote.




					www.politico.com


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> And you can’t provide the link?


no, it's in the article you posted, look it up.  Interesting read.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic
> 
> 
> Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com


If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.

I ask you to define one of the most common words in the English language, and you reply with a survey of research papers.

You guys might as well wear t-shirts that say "Out of Touch."


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.


B I N G O


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.
> 
> I ask you to define one of the most common words in the English language, and you reply with a survey of research papers.
> 
> You guys might as well wear t-shirts that say "Out of Touch."


Where did you ask?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.
> 
> I ask you to define one of the most common words in the English language, and you reply with a survey of research papers.
> 
> You guys might as well wear t-shirts that say "Out of Touch."


Your inability to use information is possibly more of an indictment on our society in general or is it due to something you have been exposed to that dulled your cognitive functions? I am highly undereducated but still I am able to understand simple concepts such as a variation in chromosome make up from one individual to the next. I don’t want men competing against women either but it is obvious there is far more to understand here than, “Me Dick she Jane”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

I can see you people are afraid. I always found the medieval period interesting and now it’s echo is here.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Did you read the study?


The Auckland report? If that’s what you are calling a “study” (seemingly miss using the term in attempted subterfuge?) I don’t think that report says what you think it does . . . but as you are maintaining a cloak of secrecy as to what your opinion is on it or from where you even derived the information to base that on it may just remain a mystery on both counts.
If you can’t just have an honest discussion you simply are as Grace might say, a troll.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your inability to use information is possibly more of an indictment on our society in general or is it due to something you have been exposed to that dulled your cognitive functions? I am highly undereducated but still I am able to understand simple concepts such as a variation in chromosome make up from one individual to the next. I don’t want men competing against women either but it is obvious there is far more to understand here than, “Me Dick she Jane”


I see, like the pregnant man emoji you clowns browbeat Apple into producing, that kind of cognitive function?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your *inability* to use information is possibly more of an indictment on our society in general or is it due to something you have been exposed to that *dulled your cognitive functions*? I am highly undereducated but still I am able to understand simple concepts such as a variation in chromosome make up from one individual to the next. I don’t want men competing against women either but it is obvious there is far more to understand here than, “Me Dick she Jane”


You’re going for insults rather than engaging the question.

Normally you’re above that.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> " In their defense (which I hesitate to do), the NCAA did the fair thing and allowed thomas to swim."


How is this fair?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> I see, like the pregnant man emoji you clowns browbeat Apple into producing, that kind of cognitive function?


Your generalizations coupled with your bizarre cherry picking have you looking the fool. 
You are frightened, that is ok, it’s a natural human reaction to the unknown. Knowledge will set you free.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You’re going for insults rather than engaging the question.
> 
> Normally you’re above that.


What question? I went back over the thread and saw no overt question? Is this something you implied?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.
> 
> I ask you to define one of the most common words in the English language, and you reply with a survey of research papers.
> 
> You guys might as well wear t-shirts that say "Out of Touch."


It's a two party system. It was Trump or enable Hillary and a known senile old idiot with his cackling hen moron of a VP. By my count you're 0 for 2.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your generalizations coupled with your bizarre cherry picking have you looking the fool.
> You are frightened, that is ok, it’s a natural human reaction to the unknown. Knowledge will set you free.


Speaking of looking the fool, it is actually: "The truth will set you free." Also, it is actually: "knowledge is power." I'd say you're 0 for 2 as well, Einstein.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> The NCAA is not "far left".  The IOC is not "far left".  Nice try attempting to reclassify trans women as misogynistic men.  That's really funny.
> 
> Both of those entities fully understand how its policies impact women's sports.  Unlike you, they actually weighed the pros and cons and have reached a reasoned decision, which they continue to modify over time as they deem necessary.  Do I feel bad for the Virginia swimmer who came in second? Not really.  She has lived a life of privilege, is getting a free education and has the opportunity to swim for the USA when the trans swimmer does not (yet). She's doing fine.  It's just a race, and who wins is just not that important.


The NCAA and the IOC?  That's comedy gold.  Ignoring their corruption, neither organization has a reputation for doing what's best for athletes.  Instead they have a reputation for doing what's best for their own interests.  I know that you have a blind reverence for authority, but those organizations hardly provide any credibility to your argument.  What you couldn't find any transgender policies for FIFA?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Auckland report? If that’s what you are calling a “study” (seemingly miss using the term in attempted subterfuge?) I don’t think that report says what you think it does . . . but as you are maintaining a cloak of secrecy as to what your opinion is on it or from where you even derived the information to base that on it may just remain a mystery on both counts.
> If you can’t just have an honest discussion you simply are as Grace might say, a troll.


you are tiresome.  The link to the NIH study is in yoru article - quit being so dim.  I don't even know  what the Auckland report is. 

"subterfuge", "I don’t think that report says what you think it does . . . but as you are maintaining a *cloak of secrecy *as to what your opinion is on it or from where you even derived the information to base that on it may just remain a mystery on both counts" ----*word salad.*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> you are tiresome.  The link to the NIH study is in yoru article - quit being so dim.  I don't even know  what the Auckland report is.
> 
> "subterfuge", "I don’t think that report says what you think it does . . . but as you are maintaining a *cloak of secrecy *as to what your opinion is on it or from where you even derived the information to base that on it may just remain a mystery on both counts" ----*word salad.*


So the mystery continues.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Speaking of looking the fool, it is actually: "The truth will set you free." Also, it is actually: "knowledge is power." I'd say you're 0 for 2 as well, Einstein.


Are you stuck in mud? Bible quotes? Of course the precise wording of which depends on which version you wish to quote. I of course I was freelancing a quote of my own, but you do you it seems to fit quite well in your case.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you stuck in mud? Bible quotes? Of course the precise wording of which depends on which version you wish to quote. I of course I was freelancing a quote of my own, but you do you it seems to fit quite well in your case.


Sure thing genius. BTW, "a rolling stone collects no mud!" LOL...clown!


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> If you ever wonder how Trumpies get elected, that's it right there.
> 
> I ask you to define one of the most common words in the English language, and you reply with a survey of research papers.
> 
> You guys might as well wear t-shirts that say "Out of Touch."


Ha ha.  I'm telling you why something is ACTUALLY happening and has been for more than a decade, yet you're trying to tell me that I'm the one who is out of touch?  That's funny.

Were you also making the argument that people shouldn't support civil rights because it might get awful people elected when LBJ was integrating schools? When Obergfell finally allowed for gay marriage?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Sure thing genius. BTW, "a rolling stone collects no mud!" LOL...clown!


Well done! Nutters usually don’t possess the ability to ad-lib. You sure you aren’t a plant?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So the mystery continues.


ha, only in your head is there a mystery.  Read your article, click on the link, read the study, become informed.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> B I N G O


FYI, Trump lost.  Should we also send arms to Russia to support their invasion of Ukraine because that's also what Trump wants?  Should we give up on abortion rights because otherwise people will vote for Trump?  Should we give up on environmental protection too?  The argument that people shouldn't support something because it might cause a trumper to still vote for Trump is a pretty stupid argument.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> The NCAA and the IOC?  That's comedy gold.  Ignoring their corruption, neither organization has a reputation for doing what's best for athletes.  Instead they have a reputation for doing what's best for their own interests.  I know that you have a blind reverence for authority, but those organizations hardly provide any credibility to your argument.  What you couldn't find any transgender policies for FIFA?


So I guess you're saying the NCAA and IOC have decided that winning a race in a pool just isn't that important compared to inclusion and equality in society and helping transgender people overcome all of the hostility and discrimination they have suffered for generations?  I guess you're also saying that the NCAA and IOC have determined that their best financial interests include ignoring people like you who are actually out of touch.  Or are you saying the all powerful transgender mafia made them do it?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> So I guess you're saying the NCAA and IOC have decided that winning a race in a pool just isn't that important compared to inclusion and equality in society and helping transgender people overcome all of the hostility and discrimination they have suffered for generations?  I guess you're also saying that the NCAA and IOC have determined that their best financial interests include ignoring people like you who are actually out of touch.  Or are you saying the all powerful transgender mafia made them do it?


where is the fairness piece of compeition...or that just isn't in the calculations.  You are quite delusional, wrapped up in your blanket of rhetoric and agendas.  It's obvious you hold women in high regard.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> @GoldenGate maybe you should attend this event and let all of them know that we should stop raising snowflakes...what does the Surgeon General know anyway or any of those doctors on the panel...you're much smarter than all of them!!! Weak minded fail kids, who needs them, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State of the Kids: Uniting for Youth Mental Health
> 
> 
> Join us for a  nationwide virtual event to chart a healthier way forward for our kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eventbrite.com


Uh, the Surgeon General has supported masks in schools.  The irony here is, yet again, you fail to even look into what you have cited is even about. It is not a seminar about the horrors of wearing masks at school.  It isn't a pity party about how wearing masks has ruined our kids.  Ironically, the main focus of the seminar is about trying to turn around idiot self-pitying anti-mask parents like yourself, who are the real culprits that are causing kids to slash their wrists. In fact, here's a great interview of one of the participants at the event you identified discussing how it's the whiny parents who are causing depression in their kids, not masks.





__





						The Indianapolis Star
					






					www.indystar.com
				




It is mind-boggling how stupid you are.  You are like crush in that you refuse to take responsibility for the impacts of your own behavior and are so clueless that you can't even figure out that you're the problem causing depression in your kids, not masks.  Honestly, it is crazy that you're pinning depression in children on having to wear masks at school, when it is plainly obvious that so many kids are depressed because they come home to parents like you who do nothing but feel sorry for themselves. You might want to unload any firearms you have in the house.
[/QUOTE]

You really think you are clever...you are really that not that smart LOL...idiot, you clearly didn't attend the seminar or have any clue what it was about...if you would have went you wouldn't have written such an ignorant statement that shows you clearly have no idea, just like the rest of your shallow takes, you have no clue.  Nice try though, so stupid LOL HAHAHA


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> So I guess you're saying the NCAA and IOC have decided that winning a race in a pool just isn't that important compared to inclusion and equality in society and helping transgender people overcome all of the hostility and discrimination they have suffered for generations?  I guess you're also saying that the NCAA and IOC have determined that their best financial interests include ignoring people like you who are actually out of touch.  Or are you saying the all powerful transgender mafia made them do it?


So it's about reparations for transgenders?  While I disagree with that premise, at least I better understand your argument.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> where is the fairness piece of compeition...or that just isn't in the calculations.  You are quite delusional, wrapped up in your blanket of rhetoric and agendas.  It's obvious you hold women in high regard.


The fairness piece is quite obvious.  Transgender women have never been treated fairly in life, so allowing them to swim in a pool after 12 months of hormone suppression is important and beneficial for society, whereas someone losing one swim race is not important at all.  Collegiate athletics has very little to do with winning and losing.  Every single swimmer loses the national championship every year with the exception of one person.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> So it's about reparations for transgenders?  While I disagree with that premise, at least I better understand your argument.


So Title IX was about reparations for women?  Title VII of the Civil Rights Act about reparations for racial minorities?  The ADA about reparations for disabled people?  If you want to call every attempt to support equality "reparations", well that's your deal.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> ha, only in your head is there a mystery.  Read your article, click on the link, read the study, become informed.


What link?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> What question? I went back over the thread and saw no overt question? Is this something you implied?


The question you are dodging is “how do you define the word ’woman’”.

This is a word you’ve been using since you were two years old.  I do not believe you are actually uncertain as to what it means.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Uh, the Surgeon General has supported masks in schools.  The irony here is, yet again, you fail to even look into what you have cited is even about. It is not a seminar about the horrors of wearing masks at school.  It isn't a pity party about how wearing masks has ruined our kids.  Ironically, the main focus of the seminar is about trying to turn around idiot self-pitying anti-mask parents like yourself, who are the real culprits that are causing kids to slash their wrists. In fact, here's a great interview of one of the participants at the event you identified discussing how it's the whiny parents who are causing depression in their kids, not masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indianapolis Star
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indystar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is mind-boggling how stupid you are.  You are like crush in that you refuse to take responsibility for the impacts of your own behavior and are so clueless that you can't even figure out that you're the problem causing depression in your kids, not masks.  Honestly, it is crazy that you're pinning depression in children on having to wear masks at school, when it is plainly obvious that so many kids are depressed because they come home to parents like you who do nothing but feel sorry for themselves. You might want to unload any firearms you have in the house.


You really think you are clever...you are really that not that smart LOL...idiot, you clearly didn't attend the seminar or have any clue what it was about...if you would have went you wouldn't have written such an ignorant statement that shows you clearly have no idea, just like the rest of your shallow takes, you have no clue.  Nice try though, so stupid LOL HAHAHA
[/QUOTE]

Feel free to pay the $5 and send us the video where everyone starts whining about how wearing masks ruined children.  Seriously, how emotionally feeble must you be if wearing a mask is too much for you to handle?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The question you are dodging is “how do you define the word ’woman’”.
> 
> This is a word you’ve been using since you were two years old.  I do not believe you are actually uncertain as to what it means.


First please show me the post you asked me this question.
Second I believe the links I provided might help illuminate the nuance in sex designation and why it isn’t always so cut and dry (excuse the possibly misconstrued pun opportunity for the maturity stunted in the crowd).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> You really think you are clever...you are really that not that smart LOL...idiot, you clearly didn't attend the seminar or have any clue what it was about...if you would have went you wouldn't have written such an ignorant statement that shows you clearly have no idea, just like the rest of your shallow takes, you have no clue.  Nice try though, so stupid LOL HAHAHA


Feel free to pay the $5 and send us the video where everyone starts whining about how wearing masks ruined children.  Seriously, how emotionally feeble must you be if wearing a mask is too much for you to handle?
[/QUOTE]
As I pointed out months ago in this discussion, and attempts were made to lambaste me for my perceived insensitivity to the plight of suicidal minors. Parenting or lack thereof plays a major role in a child’s disposition concerning most matters. They learn from their parents. Karen’s raise Karen’s, racists raise racists, snowflakes raise snowflakes and good, well adjusted people raise likewise. I feel the attempts at attacking me for that opinion may stemmed from parental guilt. My parents knew me and I knew them. My children know me and I know them. Seems that isn’t always the case which is sad.

Cue the angry guilt-ridden mob.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> The question you are dodging is “how do you define the word ’woman’”.
> 
> This is a word you’ve been using since you were two years old.  I do not believe you are actually uncertain as to what it means.


It sounds like you are the one doing the dodging.  How do you define "NCAA rules regarding transgender participation"?  

How does the dictionary define "transgender"?  "Cisgender"? "Hate crime"? "Discrimination"?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> First please show me the post you asked me this question.
> Second I believe the links I provided might help illuminate the nuance in sex designation and why it isn’t always so cut and dry (excuse the possibly misconstrued pun opportunity for the maturity stunted in the crowd).


It’s implicit in the princess bride quote.  In any case, I’m asking now.  

You say you agree that men should not take podium spots in competitive women’s sport.   Without clear definitions for “man” and “women”, that sentence is entirely meaningless.  

You used those two words.  What do you mean by them?

I’m not asking for you to define every possible type of non-binary condition.  I’m asking what you mean when you use the words “man” and “woman”.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> It’s implicit in the princess bride quote.  In any case, I’m asking now.
> 
> You say you agree that men should not take podium spots in competitive women’s sport.   Without clear definitions for “man” and “women”, that sentence is entirely meaningless.
> 
> You used those two words.  What do you mean by them?
> 
> I’m not asking for you to define every possible type of non-binary condition.  I’m asking what you mean when you use the words “man” and “woman”.


That’s the issue these governors are bringing up. The whole point I was making. It’s not up to me to decide and they aren’t prepared to do so either.
And I have never watched the princess bride so that must have gone right past me.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> First please show me the post you asked me this question.
> Second I believe the links I provided might help illuminate the nuance in sex designation and why it isn’t always so cut and dry (excuse the possibly misconstrued pun opportunity for the maturity stunted in the crowd).


Translation:
(also, shoot the messenger in...3, 2, 1)


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> How do you define "NCAA rules regarding transgender participation"?


...a lie.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...a lie.


That is not what the dictionary says and, according to you and your friends, it is the governing rule book for sports. Or is it the Bible? I keep forgetting.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s the issue these governors are bringing up. The whole point I was making. It’s not up to me to decide and they aren’t prepared to do so either.
> And I have never watched the princess bride so that must have gone right past me.


...you can dodge, twist, spin, deny, and lie about the truth all you want. The beauty of the truth is you don't own it...it stands on its own, with or without you...and will always prevail. Additionally, the beauty of American citizenship is your right to believe lies, tell lies, and live lies...and look as foolish as you wish doing it.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> That is not what the dictionary says and, according to you and your friends, it is the governing rule book for sports. Or is it the Bible? I keep forgetting.


...NCAA rules are not in the dictionary...another lie.

As previously stated, the truth stands on its own. Whereas, you have just brilliantly illustrated...lies require other lies.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s the issue these governors are bringing up. The whole point I was making. It’s not up to me to decide and they aren’t prepared to do so either.
> And I have never watched the princess bride so that must have gone right past me.


The other side is absolutely prepared to offer a definition:  A woman is a person with XX chromosomes and born with a womb.   A man is a person with XY chromosomes and born with a penis.  There are also a few people who fit neither definition, and are best described as “other”.

This is, more or less, the definition everyone has been using since they first used the words.   

It’s not neanderthal thinking.  It is just speaking clearly in language normal people use.  

And Carville is correct.  If the left is talking down to people while the right is talking straight with people, the left is going to lose and the right is going to win.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...you can dodge, twist, spin, deny, and lie about the truth all you want. The beauty of the truth is you don't own it...it stands on its own, with or without you...and will always prevail. Additionally, the beauty of American citizenship is your right to believe lies, tell lies, and live lies...and look as foolish as you wish doing it.


And you are free to point out where I attempted to “dodge, twist, spin, deny and lie”? If you can. Makes for a nice sound bite/rhyme but as I simple have presented scientific research I’m not sure where my deceit lies? Help a brother out and do me a solid by being forthright and earnest.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...NCAA rules are not in the dictionary...another lie.
> 
> As previously stated, the truth stands on its own. Whereas, you have just brilliantly illustrated...lies require other lies.


I see.  So the dictionary does not determine who can and can't swim in a race.  So it's the Bible that sets the rules about who can and can't swim in a race, then?  The one thing I can't figure out, though, is whether we should stone the transgender swimmer to death before, during or after the race.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The other side is absolutely prepared to offer a definition:  A woman is a person with XX chromosomes and born with a womb.   A man is a person with XY chromosomes and born with a penis.  There are also a few people who fit neither definition, and are best described as “other”.
> 
> This is, more or less, the definition everyone has been using since they first used the words.
> 
> It’s not neanderthal thinking.  It is just speaking clearly in language normal people use.
> 
> And Carville is correct.  If the left is talking down to people while the right is talking straight with people, the left is going to lose and the right is going to win.


Yes there are two-spirits of differing degrees. Reality is a mother fucker for the fix minded.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> I see.  So the dictionary does not determine who can and can't swim in a race.  So it's the Bible that sets the rules about who can and can't swim in a race, then?  The one thing I can't figure out, though, is whether we should stone the transgender swimmer to death before, during or after the race.


I think people who are guilty of adultery or is it idolatry are to be stoned to death?


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> The other side is absolutely prepared to offer a definition:  A woman is a person with XX chromosomes and born with a womb.   A man is a person with XY chromosomes and born with a penis.  There are also a few people who fit neither definition, and are best described as “other”.
> 
> This is, more or less, the definition everyone has been using since they first used the words.
> 
> It’s not neanderthal thinking.  It is just speaking clearly in language normal people use.
> 
> And Carville is correct.  If the left is talking down to people while the right is talking straight with people, the left is going to lose and the right is going to win.


And if the right is talking down to people, then the right is going to lose and the left is going to win - just like it did.  The transphobes here can't have honest conversation about why the NCAA is doing what it is, so they're going to need to stick to gerrymandering to have any hope going forward.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes there are two-spirits of differing degrees. Reality is a mother fucker for the fix minded.


Not a winning strategy.  

Trump will say “the one born with a penis is a man, the one born with pussy is a woman.”

Your guy will say “actually, you need a biology PhD and a law license to figure it out.  You fix minded people aren’t smart enough.”

Guess who wins in Nebraska?


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Not a winning strategy.
> 
> Trump will say “the one born with a penis is a man, the one born with pussy is a woman.”
> 
> Your guy will say “actually, you need a biology PhD and a law license to figure it out.  You fix minded people aren’t smart enough.”
> 
> Guess who wins in Nebraska?


So you're going to vote for Trump because the NCAA let a transgender woman swim in a race?


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> I see.  So the dictionary does not determine who can and can't swim in a race.  So it's the Bible that sets the rules about who can and can't swim in a race, then?  The one thing I can't figure out, though, is whether we should stone the transgender swimmer to death before, during or after the race.


I'm going to continue to indulge you today just for fun.  I'm pretty sure it's biology that sets the rules.  The level of testosterone doesn't determine whether you're male or female.  Your chromosomes determine that.  This isn't about transgender rights, its about women's rights and exploiting and unfair advantage.  Nor is it about discrimination because the individual is not prevented from competing, they just have to compete in the appropriate group.  Not unlike why we have age or ability levels for many sports.  You can play up but not play down because it creates an advantage in most cases.

When you transition post puberty you can't reverse that.  You can't reverse you height, your arm length etc.  I'm actually OK with prepuberty transitions competing in their identified gender, but not post puberty.  You think you're carrying water for transgenders when in fact there is not universal support among transgenders and their families for MTF athletes competing against women.

Your lack of self awareness continues to infect your posts.  You claim its just a race what's the big deal.  That same attitude should apply to the trans swimmer.  It must be a big deal if she is willing to take an unfair advantage to when a silly race.  Do I think they transitioned to win NCAA swim races? No.  Do I think they is exploiting that advantage for their benefit? 100%.


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> And if the right is talking down to people, then the right is going to lose and the left is going to win - just like it did.  The transphobes here can't have honest conversation about why the NCAA is doing what it is, so they're going to need to stick to gerrymandering to have any hope going forward.


NCAA is afraid of leftist boycotts, so they decided to go along to get along.  The big issue for them is avoiding having to pay their athletes in football and basketball.  Women’s sport is an afterthought for NCAA, and they just wanted the issue to go away.

Then the female athletes started saying “what the fuck?  I spent 15 years working on swimming just so you can put some dude on the podium?”.   And they’re right.

There is a middle ground that Cox is looking for.  It may mean that most trans and intersex athletes compete wherever they feel most comfortable, and high skill trans and intersex athletes need to shift over to the men’s side.  “Congrats, you won two events.  You’ll change in the girls room but compete for the boy’s team next week.”

Not perfect, but better than anything else I’ve heard.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Not a winning strategy.
> 
> Trump will say “the one born with a penis is a man, the one born with pussy is a woman.”
> 
> Your guy will say “actually, you need a biology PhD and a law license to figure it out.  You fix minded people aren’t smart enough.”
> 
> Guess who wins in Nebraska?


So for you it’s all political?


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Well done! Nutters usually don’t possess the ability to ad-lib. You sure you aren’t a plant?


I see, in your freakish world "nutters" believe men are men and women are women - and they don't cowardly avoid defining those terms. 

BTW Clown, ad-lib this,  :•)-|--^<


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> NCAA is afraid of leftist boycotts, so they decided to go along to get along.  The big issue for them is avoiding having to pay their athletes in football and basketball.  Women’s sport is an afterthought for NCAA, and they just wanted the issue to go away.
> 
> Then the female athletes started saying “what the fuck?  I spent 15 years working on swimming just so you can put some dude on the podium?”.   And they’re right.
> 
> There is a middle ground that Cox is looking for.  It may mean that most trans and intersex athletes compete wherever they feel most comfortable, and high skill trans and intersex athletes need to shift over to the men’s side.  “Congrats, you won two events.  You’ll change in the girls room but compete for the boy’s team next week.”
> 
> Not perfect, but better than anything else I’ve heard.


Not sure if this is truly the wedge issue you think it is. No one cares but a handful of those wishing to compete, those they would compete against and those involved in the outrage machine.
Do I want a man to compete in the women's division? Of course not.
Maybe you would prefer there be a chromosome count rule that determines division?








						The Idea of a 'DNA Test' for Transgender People Is Part of a Long, Dark History
					

Faux science feeds real bias




					time.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> I see, in your freakish world "nutters" believe men are men and women are women - and they don't cowardly avoid defining those terms.
> 
> BTW Clown, ad-lib this,  :•)-|--^<


Can you cite the test that definitively determines gender?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not sure if this is truly the wedge issue you think it is. No one cares but a handful of those wishing to compete, those they would compete against and those involved in the outrage machine.
> Do I want a man to compete in the women's division? Of course not.
> Maybe you would prefer there be a chromosome count rule that determines division?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Idea of a 'DNA Test' for Transgender People Is Part of a Long, Dark History
> 
> 
> Faux science feeds real bias
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com


Chromosome count?  It works, but it is overkill.  There are very few people for whom their chromosomes do not match the gender identified at birth.
Just use original birth certificates, and have a process for appeal based on DNA.

If you have a better definition, state it.



Hüsker Dü said:


> So for you it’s all political?


Not quite.  But the politics lens was the easiest way to help you see how your position looks.  

The women athletes affected by this have a valid point.   It deserves to be heard instead of just calling people “fixed-minded” or “transphobe”.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> And you are free to point out where I attempted to “dodge, twist, spin, deny and lie”? If you can. Makes for a nice sound bite/rhyme but as I simple have presented scientific research I’m not sure where my deceit lies? Help a brother out and do me a solid by being forthright and earnest.


...not sure how your foolish rules apply to your use of the word "brother", but aside from that... I'll be forthright and earnest: *What do you mean when you use the words “man” and “woman”?*


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> I see.  So the dictionary does not determine who can and can't swim in a race.  So it's the Bible that sets the rules about who can and can't swim in a race, then?  The one thing I can't figure out, though, is whether we should stone the transgender swimmer to death before, during or after the race.


...nope, it is determined by the words, Mens or Womens and/or Boys or Girls proceeding the name of the sport. Much like the categories used on this Youth Soccer Forum...which you creepishly spend way too much time on pushing your depraved lies.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> NCAA is afraid of leftist boycotts, so they decided to go along to get along.  The big issue for them is avoiding having to pay their athletes in football and basketball.  Women’s sport is an afterthought for NCAA, and they just wanted the issue to go away.
> 
> Then the female athletes started saying “what the fuck?  I spent 15 years working on swimming just so you can put some dude on the podium?”.   And they’re right.
> 
> There is a middle ground that Cox is looking for.  It may mean that most trans and intersex athletes compete wherever they feel most comfortable, and high skill trans and intersex athletes need to shift over to the men’s side.  “Congrats, you won two events.  You’ll change in the girls room but compete for the boy’s team next week.”
> 
> Not perfect, but better than anything else I’ve heard.


...there is no such thing as half truth, truth has no middle ground...just as lies have no end or satisfaction, just more lies. There is no compromise to truth, it is whole or it is not truth...the only compromised are liars and those who accept and play along with them.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> You really think you are clever...you are really that not that smart LOL...idiot, you clearly didn't attend the seminar or have any clue what it was about...if you would have went you wouldn't have written such an ignorant statement that shows you clearly have no idea, just like the rest of your shallow takes, you have no clue.  Nice try though, so stupid LOL HAHAHA


Feel free to pay the $5 and send us the video where everyone starts whining about how wearing masks ruined children.  Seriously, how emotionally feeble must you be if wearing a mask is too much for you to handle?
[/QUOTE]

bwahahahaha!!!! Dawg, you kill me!! You act like you knew what the Conference was about, like you actually read about it, but you have now idea because you are full of it!!!! You were so off base with what you actually thought it was about and then tried to ricule Crush when you are actually the same way. HAHA maybe you are Crush, who knows!!!  LOL you are sad story, you are an emotionally unstable that you have to make up stories to defend you ridiculous takes!!! LOL If you actually knew how to comprehend the conversation you would understand it was never about wearing mask, so stupid, maybe take a minute to read what others are saying. So weak minded you can't even conversate intellectually without making up your own narrative.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Chromosome count?  It works, but it is overkill.  There are very few people for whom their chromosomes do not match the gender identified at birth.
> Just use original birth certificates, and have a process for appeal based on DNA.
> 
> If you have a better definition, state it.
> 
> 
> Not quite.  But the politics lens was the easiest way to help you see how your position looks.
> 
> The women athletes affected by this have a valid point.   It deserves to be heard instead of just calling people “fixed-minded” or “transphobe”.


How brave of you to admit they had a point, let alone a valid one. The key point that seems to escape those of you with this squishy middle ground BS, is they should not be in this position at all, let alone having to have a point about being a woman. The only point that should matter is being, again as you so bravely stated, "women athletes."


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...there is no such thing as half truth, truth has no middle ground...just as lies have no end or satisfaction, just more lies. There is no compromise to truth, it is whole or it is not truth...the only compromised are liars and those who accept and play along with them.


Suppose a low skill trans kid wants to try rec soccer.  Born male, lives as female, no real soccer skills.

Who is harmed if they join a girls rec team?

The kind thing to do is to accommodate their request.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Suppose a low skill trans kid wants to try rec soccer.  Born male, lives as female, no real soccer skills.
> 
> Who is harmed if they join a girls rec team?
> 
> The kind thing to do is to accommodate their request.


Younger rec teams are often coed anyway.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Chromosome count?  It works, but it is overkill.  There are very few people for whom their chromosomes do not match the gender identified at birth.
> Just use original birth certificates, and have a process for appeal based on DNA.
> 
> If you have a better definition, state it.
> 
> 
> Not quite.  But the politics lens was the easiest way to help you see how your position looks.
> 
> The women athletes affected by this have a valid point.   It deserves to be heard instead of just calling people “fixed-minded” or “transphobe”.


I just see scared people reacting to things they seem to see through the lens they have been given. Not sure if many in here have said anything about trans rights only that they are cheating somehow? I pretty much agree with your opening paragraph, but who is to say that isn’t what has happened already? Do we know this all just based on what the potential athletes say or has there been testing of some kind? Just not a fan of fear based on biases.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...not sure how your foolish rules apply to your use of the word "brother", but aside from that... I'll be forthright and earnest: *What do you mean when you use the words “man” and “woman”?*


Your one dimensionality humors me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> How brave of you to admit they had a point, let alone a valid one. The key point that seems to escape those of you with this squishy middle ground BS, is they should not be in this position at all, let alone having to have a point about being a woman. The only point that should matter is being, again as you so bravely stated, "women athletes."


In playground terminology are they chicks with dicks or dudes with tits?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> I just see scared people reacting to things they seem to see through the lens they have been given. Not sure if many in here have said anything about trans rights only that they are cheating somehow? I pretty much agree with your opening paragraph, but who is to say that isn’t what has happened already? Do we know this all just based on what the potential athletes say or has there been testing of some kind? Just not a fan of fear based on biases.


So Caitlyn Jenner is also transphobic?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So Caitlyn Jenner is also transphobic?


I still call him Bruce, so maybe I am?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So Caitlyn Jenner is also transphobic?


Does he now play in the ladies club at the CC? Probably still can’t place.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> I just see scared people reacting to things they seem to see through the lens they have been given. Not sure if many in here have said anything about trans rights only that they are cheating somehow? I pretty much agree with your opening paragraph, but who is to say that isn’t what has happened already? Do we know this all just based on what the potential athletes say or has there been testing of some kind? Just not a fan of fear based on biases.


All of the examples so far have been athletes who are born male, have XY chromosomes, and transition at some point later in life.

If they were using original birth certificate + DNA, they’d all be competing in a mens or boys division.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Younger rec teams are often coed anyway.


The youngest rec teams, Age 5 and below, are co-ed teams. 

The younger rec teams, Age 6 and above, are separate Boys and Girls teams.


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

I have refrained from commenting, and some think I am a troll.  That's fine.  99% of transgender kids are not very athletic.  Having a transgender athlete be successful is a big step forward for awareness and normalization.  It doesn't look like this swimmer had a big difference in sucess when male or female.  Hormone suppressing drugs are very powerful, nauseating and exhausting and impact coordination and just ability to function so I understand the uproar if you don't know these things, but if you knew the backstory of these kids I think all of you as parent would just be really happy for this athlete.  I have no personal knowledge about this swimmer but I am pretty sure that would be her story.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Can you cite the test that definitively determines gender?





Hüsker Dü said:


> Can you cite the test that definitively determines gender?


Yes, the tests used by anthropologist and archaeologist when determining the male or female gender of human skeletal remains - regardless of who the human skeletal remains pretended to be when they were living.


----------



## MicPaPa

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> I have refrained from commenting, and some think I am a troll.  That's fine.  99% of transgender kids are not very athletic.  Having a transgender athlete be successful is a big step forward for awareness and normalization.  It doesn't look like this swimmer had a big difference in sucess when male or female.  Hormone suppressing drugs are very powerful, nauseating and exhausting and impact coordination and just ability to function so I understand the uproar if you don't know these things, but if you knew the backstory of these kids I think all of you as parent would just be really happy for this athlete.  I have no personal knowledge about this swimmer but I am pretty sure that would be her story.


Understandable why you have refrained from commenting. Recommend return to refraining.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your one dimensionality humors me.


...your cowardice to answering the question is an answer...liars are cowards and their lies crumble in the face of Truth.


----------



## espola

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> I have refrained from commenting, and some think I am a troll.  That's fine.  99% of transgender kids are not very athletic.  Having a transgender athlete be successful is a big step forward for awareness and normalization.  It doesn't look like this swimmer had a big difference in sucess when male or female.  Hormone suppressing drugs are very powerful, nauseating and exhausting and impact coordination and just ability to function so I understand the uproar if you don't know these things, but if you knew the backstory of these kids I think all of you as parent would just be really happy for this athlete.  I have no personal knowledge about this swimmer but I am pretty sure that would be her story.


"I have no personal knowledge ... but I am pretty sure" could be the confession of many posters in this forum.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I'm going to continue to indulge you today just for fun.  I'm pretty sure it's biology that sets the rules.  The level of testosterone doesn't determine whether you're male or female.  Your chromosomes determine that.  This isn't about transgender rights, its about women's rights and exploiting and unfair advantage.  Nor is it about discrimination because the individual is not prevented from competing, they just have to compete in the appropriate group.  Not unlike why we have age or ability levels for many sports.  You can play up but not play down because it creates an advantage in most cases.
> 
> When you transition post puberty you can't reverse that.  You can't reverse you height, your arm length etc.  I'm actually OK with prepuberty transitions competing in their identified gender, but not post puberty.  You think you're carrying water for transgenders when in fact there is not universal support among transgenders and their families for MTF athletes competing against women.
> 
> Your lack of self awareness continues to infect your posts.  You claim its just a race what's the big deal.  That same attitude should apply to the trans swimmer.  It must be a big deal if she is willing to take an unfair advantage to when a silly race.  Do I think they transitioned to win NCAA swim races? No.  Do I think they is exploiting that advantage for their benefit? 100%.


science, biology - fake news.  Dogma - now you are talking his love language..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...your cowardice to answering the question is an answer...liars are cowards and their lies crumble in the face of Truth.


Your inability to reason is certainly apparent.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Suppose a low skill trans kid wants to try rec soccer.  Born male, lives as female, no real soccer skills.
> 
> Who is harmed if they join a girls rec team?
> 
> The kind thing to do is to accommodate their request.


The Truth is harmed...thus, encouraging more lies.  

In your (and your fellow fence sitters) compromise of the Truth scenario...who determines and enforces skill levels and "no real soccer skills"? When player capacity numbers are reached, what happens to the next girl(s) who want to try girls soccer?

Mr. Thomas was ranked 400th+ amongst his  collegiate male swimmer peers...so what ranking would you consider low skill? And again, who gets to establish what low skill is? 

Accommodating a lie may very well be kind...but kind is an emotion...and emotions frequently act as blinders to facts and the Truth. 

You either stand for the Truth or you do not...no fences to sit on with this one.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> I have refrained from commenting, and some think I am a troll.  That's fine.  99% of transgender kids are not very athletic.  Having a transgender athlete be successful is a big step forward for awareness and normalization.  It doesn't look like this swimmer had a big difference in sucess when male or female.  Hormone suppressing drugs are very powerful, nauseating and exhausting and impact coordination and just ability to function so I understand the uproar if you don't know these things, but if you knew the backstory of these kids I think all of you as parent would just be really happy for this athlete.  I have no personal knowledge about this swimmer but I am pretty sure that would be her story.


I agree with you and there are examples in modern day of trans athletes competing professionally with Women. However, this swimmer was a Male collegiate athlete thru his sophomore year then transitioned into her Junior year.  So one year competing against Men and not finishing on a podium to the next year competing against Women and winning Medals.  

If anything it begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your inability to reason is certainly apparent.


...answering the simple question would be an ability to reason...whereas, cowering from said question would be the correct use of inability to reason.


----------



## met61

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I agree with you and there are examples in modern day of trans athletes competing professionally with Women. However, this swimmer was a Male collegiate athlete thru his sophomore year then transitioned into her Junior year.  So one year competing against Men and not finishing on a podium to the next year competing against Women and winning Medals.
> 
> If anything it begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why.


...are they examples in modern day of men competing against women?


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I agree with you and there are examples in modern day of trans athletes competing professionally with Women. However, this swimmer was a Male collegiate athlete thru his sophomore year then transitioned into her Junior year.  So one year competing against Men and not finishing on a podium to the next year competing against Women and winning Medals.
> 
> If anything it begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why.


has anyone asked the persons who placed behind her how they feel?  They know her, we do not


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...answering the simple question would be an ability to reason...whereas, cowering from said question would be the correct use of inability to reason.


What question would that be?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...are they examples in modern day of men competing against women?


Depending on your definition of modern...Renee Richards.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

met61 said:


> ...are they examples in modern day of men competing against women?


Yes….one is in the NWSL.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I agree with you and there are examples in modern day of trans athletes competing professionally with Women. However, this swimmer was a Male collegiate athlete thru his sophomore year then transitioned into her Junior year.  So one year competing against Men and not finishing on a podium to the next year competing against Women and winning Medals.
> 
> If anything it begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why.


Wow you are really invested in this! You feel she did that to win medals?


----------



## watfly

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> has anyone asked the persons who placed behind her how they feel?  They know her, we do not


One has publicly said it wasn't fair and 16 of her teammates said she shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

I'm sympathetic to the situation as my son's best friend is MTF transgendered kid and I wouldn't wish the transition process on anyone.  However, this is just a "bridge too far" for me and defies common sense for the reasons Kicker2.0 mentioned in terms of timing.  The testosterone levels may change but the biology doesn't change much in 1-2 years.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Yes….one is in the NWSL.


@met61 I misspoke.  The athlete I was thinking of was biologically female transitioning to non-binary.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> I have refrained from commenting, and some think I am a troll.  That's fine.  99% of transgender kids are not very athletic.  Having a transgender athlete be successful is a big step forward for awareness and normalization.  It doesn't look like this swimmer had a big difference in sucess when male or female.  Hormone suppressing drugs are very powerful, nauseating and exhausting and impact coordination and just ability to function so I understand the uproar if you don't know these things, but if you knew the backstory of these kids I think all of you as parent would just be really happy for this athlete.  I have no personal knowledge about this swimmer but I am pretty sure that would be her story.


Deja vu.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Wow you are really invested in this! You feel she did that to win medals?


Ask her….


----------



## Kicker 2.0

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> has anyone asked the persons who placed behind her how they feel?  They know her, we do not


There are several articles and interviews that will answer that question for you.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...are they examples in modern day of men competing against women?


Oops forgot this one.









						Transgender MMA Fighter Fallon Fox Breaks Opponent's Skull - Attack The Back
					

If you didn’t know about Fallon Fox, she is probably the most well-known transgender female wrestler in the world and is also a former MMA ... <a title="Transgender MMA Fighter Fallon Fox Breaks Opponent’s Skull" class="read-more"...




					www.attacktheback.com


----------



## met61

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> has anyone asked the persons who placed behind her how they feel?  They know her, we do not


...although important, what they feel is not the issue. We all understand what Truth is...the main issue is where we stand on the Truth. 

Do you believe men can be women...or women men? Should men compete in women's sports?


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> Depending on your definition of modern...Renee Richards.


...the definition of modern is irrelevant...the example of allowing a men to compete in a women's sports is depending on your acceptance of a lie.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> What question would that be?


...you answered it again, coward. No need to respond.


----------



## met61

Kicker 2.0 said:


> @met61 I misspoke.  The athlete I was thinking of was biologically female transitioning to non-binary.


...ok then, not sure how a woman playing in NWSL fits into your below post...so, because of modern day examples of people accepting lies, then what? Forgive me, I may have missed something... maybe, explain how men playing in men's sports and women playing in women's sports "begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why."  You see, the Truth is clear and requires no investigation...it could be one's personal relationship with the Truth that begs the bigger internal investigation. Just a thought.



Kicker 2.0 said:


> I agree with you and there are examples in modern day of trans athletes competing professionally with Women. However, this swimmer was a Male collegiate athlete thru his sophomore year then transitioned into her Junior year.  So one year competing against Men and not finishing on a podium to the next year competing against Women and winning Medals.
> 
> If anything it begs a bigger investigation into who should be able to compete and why.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> The Truth is harmed...thus, encouraging more lies.
> 
> In your (and your fellow fence sitters) compromise of the Truth scenario...who determines and enforces skill levels and "no real soccer skills"? When player capacity numbers are reached, what happens to the next girl(s) who want to try girls soccer?
> 
> Mr. Thomas was ranked 400th+ amongst his  collegiate male swimmer peers...so what ranking would you consider low skill? And again, who gets to establish what low skill is?
> 
> Accommodating a lie may very well be kind...but kind is an emotion...and emotions frequently act as blinders to facts and the Truth.
> 
> You either stand for the Truth or you do not...no fences to sit on with this one.


Some great battle of Truth versus Lie in girls rec soccer?

No.  This is the kind of ordinary decision parents and coaches make all the time.  When can you be kind, and when do you have to hold a harder line.

So, who decides if the MTF athlete is too good for a rec program?  coaches and division coordinator, same as always.  You keep an eye on her, and nudge her into the boys side if her level of play is more similar to the boys division.  Good programs already do this to nudge top rec players into comp.

There is no collegiate ranking I would consider low skill.  All NCAA teams are high skill, and ought to follow original birth certificate + DNA.   Lia Thomas should have to compete against the boys.


----------



## dad4

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> has anyone asked the persons who placed behind her how they feel?  They know her, we do not


Second and third place invited fourth place to stand with them.   I do not believe they approved of a man in their event.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Some great battle of Truth versus Lie in girls rec soccer?
> 
> No.  This is the kind of ordinary decision parents and coaches make all the time.  When can you be kind, and when do you have to hold a harder line.
> 
> So, who decides if the MTF athlete is too good for a rec program?  coaches and division coordinator, same as always.  You keep an eye on her, and nudge her into the boys side if her level of play is more similar to the boys division.  Good programs already do this to nudge top rec players into comp.
> 
> There is no collegiate ranking I would consider low skill.  All NCAA teams are high skill, and ought to follow original birth certificate + DNA.   Lia Thomas should have to compete against the boys.


...my use of girls rec soccer was going with your analogy in playing loose with the Truth. 

Actually, the kind of ordinary decisions parents and coaches make all the time are grounded in boys on boys teams and girls on girls teams. I also believe in being kind...but, being kind is not asking ordinary parents, coaches, and kids to play along with a lie. 

The truth is clear and does not require all these other situations and wranglings you put forth and bend to.

In the end, with all due respect, the greatest battle of Truth versus lie is when you, and those like you, use her when referring to a boy.


----------



## watfly

Airline CEOs tell Biden to DROP 'outdated' mask mandates for travelers
					

CEOs of major airlines and carriers on Wednesday urged President Joe Biden to end 'outdated' federal mask mandates on airplanes as well as the international predeparture testing requirement.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NYC drops Private Sector Vaxx Mandate!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> NYC drops Private Sector Vaxx Mandate!


I see you are excited. Do you live in NYC?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...you answered it again, coward. No need to respond.


Is trump still president?


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So Caitlyn Jenner is also transphobic?


The circumstances in which transgender athletes should or shouldn't be allowed to participate in women's sports is fundamentally a legitimate and reasonable debate.  What is neither legitimate nor reasonable, however, is the manner in which people like you and your friends make dehumanizing comments and flat out refuse to even listen to the legitimate arguments being made by the side that you disagree with.  It would be one thing if you and your friends simply weighed the pros and cons differently.  Instead, you and your transphobic friends are barely capable of anything more than  offensive memes, accusing transgender women of cheating although they're complying with NCAA rules, calling them "he", mocking them for having dicks, and make ridiculously stupid arguments about how Webster's dictionary should be the sports rulebook.  Although the NCAA has spent tons of time researching the issue and listening to all (reasonable) people, and continues to tweak participation requirements, you and your friends just call them "corrupt" as a pathetic way to just refuse to even listen.

Ironically, the more dehumanizing comments that people like you and your friends make, the more the debate weighs in favor of allowing transgender women to participate in women's sports.  People like you make it clear that you aren't open to having a real discussion, you're only open to continuing to treat transgender women like shit.  People like you don't get invited to the table for this debate because you don't belong there.  The extent of your participation in the decision making process is that the posts and memes that you and your like minded transphobic friends pass around on social media get to be exhibits for the side that supports transgender participation.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Oops forgot this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transgender MMA Fighter Fallon Fox Breaks Opponent's Skull - Attack The Back
> 
> 
> If you didn’t know about Fallon Fox, she is probably the most well-known transgender female wrestler in the world and is also a former MMA ... <a title="Transgender MMA Fighter Fallon Fox Breaks Opponent’s Skull" class="read-more"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.attacktheback.com


You're worried that the trans swimmer will break someone's skull at a swim meet?  Have you ever been to a swim meet?

If your main safety concern with NCAA sports relates to a transgender woman hurting your daughter on a soccer field, you are losing sleep over the wrong thing.  You should be concerned that collegiate football players are 9x more likely to rape or beat women than other students. And that risk is probably much higher if your daughter plays collegiate soccer given a female athlete's closer proximity to the football team. Contrast that to how many collegiate female athletes have been injured by a trans woman.  I think the answer to that is zero.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> The circumstances in which transgender athletes should or shouldn't be allowed to participate in women's sports is fundamentally a legitimate and reasonable debate.


I'll bite again.  I happen to agree with this statement.  Do you think that 1.5 years after competing as a male and having hormone treatment is sufficient time to justify competing as a male?  As I mentioned before I lean towards allowing those that transitioned pre-puberty to compete in women's competitions.

I don't believe Lia Thomas transitioned to beat women in swimming.  But I believe she was given a gift to be able to transition (a gift that isn't available to many for various reasons) and now she is exploiting that gift.

Not for all, but for many this isn't an issue of transphobia but an issue of equity.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> The great thing about your post is that it's people like you who are the reason this is happening.  You who aren't willing to treat transgender people with even the slightest amount of dignity and respect, which causes entities like the NCAA to determine that the need to provide opportunities for the transgender community outweighs the costs.  The angrier and more transphobic you get, the worse things will get for you.  It's fun to watch people like you lose your minds over stuff like this.


Not transphobic in the least. 

What people want to do individually I could care less about. 

But when a man wants to compete against women it isnt right. That isnt transphobic. That is a matter of fairness to actual women. 

A guy saying he is a woman doesn't make him so. It does not entitle him to compete in womens sports. 

It is as ridiculous as me a white guy one day saying I am black and demanding you treat me as such and then get affirmative action, loans for minorities, live in minority dorms on campus, etc.


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> I'll bite again.  I happen to agree with this statement.  Do you think that 1.5 years after competing as a male and having hormone treatment is sufficient time to justify competing as a male?  As I mentioned before I lean towards allowing those that transitioned pre-puberty to compete in women's competitions.
> 
> I don't believe Lia Thomas transitioned to beat women in swimming.  But I believe she was given a gift to be able to transition (a gift that isn't available to many for various reasons) and now she is exploiting that gift.
> 
> Not for all, but for many this isn't an issue of transphobia but an issue of equity.


If you're really asking me whether 12 months of hormone therapy and requiring that she meet certain hormone levels in order to compete in women's swimming, I do think that's enough even if it means she still has a "competitive advantage".  College sports isn't some sacred thing, and who wins a race in a pool is not nearly as important as the need for society to treat people with dignity and respect in my opinion, and the opinion of those making the rules. If that means one trans woman in history wins a college national championship, fine. 

She is not exploiting anything.  She is fully complying with the rules set by the NCAA, which has allowed trans women to compete for more than a decade.  Maybe the participation requirements should change to be more in line with those required by the IOC, maybe not since it's just a college swim meet and there is much more to college sports than just winning and losing, those are legitimate discussions worth having.  Most of those on the other side, however, aren't willing to even refer to her as she let alone refrain from offensive comments.  And because too many continue to treat transgender women like shit, the more important it is to provide them with opportunity.  The NCAA and I believe that equality has very little to do with who wins a race in a pool.

In response to your "concern" about an MMA fighter breaking someone's skull, that pales in comparison to the safety issues that transgender women face every day.  It also has nothing to do with college sports.  Regardless, no matter how much people want to parse out sports as some sacred thing, it isn't.  It's just one of the million things in life and, accordingly, the NCAA is putting it into context.  Trans participation in sports helps normalize transgender status in society overall, so great. 









						Fatal Violence Against the Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Community in 2021
					

As HRC continues to work toward justice and equality for transgender and gender non-conforming people, we mourn those we have lost.




					www.hrc.org


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> If you're really asking me whether 12 months of hormone therapy and requiring that she meet certain hormone levels in order to compete in women's swimming, I do think that's enough even if it means she still has a "competitive advantage".  College sports isn't some sacred thing, and who wins a race in a pool is not nearly as important as the need for society to treat people with dignity and respect in my opinion, and the opinion of those making the rules. If that means one trans woman in history wins a college national championship, fine.
> 
> She is not exploiting anything.  She is fully complying with the rules set by the NCAA, which has allowed trans women to compete for more than a decade.  Maybe the participation requirements should change to be more in line with those required by the IOC, maybe not since it's just a college swim meet and there is much more to college sports than just winning and losing, those are legitimate discussions worth having.  Most of those on the other side, however, aren't willing to even refer to her as she let alone refrain from offensive comments.  And because too many continue to treat transgender women like shit, the more important it is to provide them with opportunity.  The NCAA and I believe that equality has very little to do with who wins a race in a pool.
> 
> In response to your "concern" about an MMA fighter breaking someone's skull, that pales in comparison to the safety issues that transgender women face every day.  It also has nothing to do with college sports.  Regardless, no matter how much people want to parse out sports as some sacred thing, it isn't.  It's just one of the million things in life and, accordingly, the NCAA is putting it into context.  Trans participation in sports helps normalize transgender status in society overall, so great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fatal Violence Against the Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Community in 2021
> 
> 
> As HRC continues to work toward justice and equality for transgender and gender non-conforming people, we mourn those we have lost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hrc.org


Fair enough.

The only point I will make is that the US Swimming and NCAA standard is actually 3 years now.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> The only point I will make is that the US Swimming and NCAA standard is actually 3 years now.


I say leave it to the sports association’s not politicians or what Tucker Carlson says.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> The only point I will make is that the US Swimming and NCAA standard is actually 3 years now.


Those standards are political compromises.

Look at it from a different viewpoint -- if a girl of age 10 or so showed some athletic talent, enough so that her parents and a willing doctor administered a 10-year course of growth hormones and testosterone to boost her bone and muscle mass, would we consider that young lady to be a fair competitor?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Those standards are political compromises.
> 
> Look at it from a different viewpoint -- if a girl of age 10 or so showed some athletic talent, enough so that her parents and a willing doctor administered a 10-year course of growth hormones and testosterone to boost her bone and muscle mass, would we consider that young lady to be a fair competitor?


No, not even if they lowered the dosage in her last three years.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> No, not even if they lowered the dosage in her last three years.


I guess that means Lionel Messi is not a fair competitor, which is probably how espola was setting you up.


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> I guess that means Lionel Messi is not a fair competitor, which is probably how espola was setting you up.


Where does Messi compete against women for money and prizes?


----------



## GoldenGate

espola said:


> Where does Messi compete against women for money and prizes?


Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13.  He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot.  If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> The circumstances in which transgender athletes should or shouldn't be allowed to participate in women's sports is fundamentally a legitimate and reasonable debate.  What is neither legitimate nor reasonable, however, is the manner in which people like you and your friends make dehumanizing comments and flat out refuse to even listen to the legitimate arguments being made by the side that you disagree with.  It would be one thing if you and your friends simply weighed the pros and cons differently.  Instead, you and your transphobic friends are barely capable of anything more than  offensive memes, accusing transgender women of cheating although they're complying with NCAA rules, calling them "he", mocking them for having dicks, and make ridiculously stupid arguments about how Webster's dictionary should be the sports rulebook.  Although the NCAA has spent tons of time researching the issue and listening to all (reasonable) people, and continues to tweak participation requirements, you and your friends just call them "corrupt" as a pathetic way to just refuse to even listen.
> 
> Ironically, the more dehumanizing comments that people like you and your friends make, the more the debate weighs in favor of allowing transgender women to participate in women's sports.  People like you make it clear that you aren't open to having a real discussion, you're only open to continuing to treat transgender women like shit.  People like you don't get invited to the table for this debate because you don't belong there.  The extent of your participation in the decision making process is that the posts and memes that you and your like minded transphobic friends pass around on social media get to be exhibits for the side that supports transgender participation.


Hypocrite much?


----------



## espola

GoldenGate said:


> Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13.  He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot.  If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?


That's only half of my proposed treatment, and we were discussing competition in women's sports.

There was a cheerful, aggressive, skillful player on one of my son's club teams one year.  His only problem on the field was that he was small.  We lost track of him for several years and then saw him jogging the high school track during summer vacation.  He had to introduce himself because we didn't recognize him.  He had really grown up, enough so that he was playing linebacker for a D2 college.  His parents had paid for HGH treatments until he went from well-below-average size for his age to above average.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13.  He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot.  If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?


Those aren't remotely comparable.  Furthermore, Messi had a growth condition and his use of HGH was therapeutic during puberty and there is no evidence that he continued treatments as an adult.  So you could say that the HGH prevented him from being size disadvantaged, but it hardly provided him with a size advantage since he is only 5'7".  Nor does he show any evidence of superior muscle mass as compared to other players.



espola said:


> That's only half of my proposed treatment, and we were discussing competition in women's sports.
> 
> There was a cheerful, aggressive, skillful player on one of my son's club teams one year.  His only problem on the field was that he was small.  We lost track of him for several years and then saw him jogging the high school track during summer vacation.  He had to introduce himself because we didn't recognize him.  He had really grown up, enough so that he was playing linebacker for a D2 college.  His parents had paid for HGH treatments until he went from well-below-average size for his age to above average.


Having almost gone through treatments with one of our kids, HGH treatments for undersized youth are done pre-puberty and/or puberty.  And as I understand it, it can only add a couple inches to short kids but doesn't do much for tall kids.  In fact, it mostly just accelerates puberty, and is most often used in the cases of delayed puberty.  That's my lay understanding of it, correct me if I'm wrong.









						Growth hormone injections add height, but kids stay short
					

Growth hormone injections appear to boost height in extremely short, healthy children, according to a recent systematic review, but height gain appears to peak at about three inches and those...




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13.  He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot.  If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?


is he bigger, taller, faster than your average footballer?


----------



## met61

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you compromise the Truth."

                     ~My spin on Voltaire


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> is he bigger, taller, faster than your average footballer?


He would have topped out at under 5 feet tall without the HGH.  And, yes, he was much faster than your average soccer player.  In fact, he was probably the quickest soccer player in history.  Never would he have had the combination of speed, strength and leverage that he needed to become the player he was without the HGH.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> I'll bite again.  I happen to agree with this statement.  Do you think that 1.5 years after competing as a male and having hormone treatment is sufficient time to justify competing as a male?  As I mentioned before I lean towards allowing those that transitioned pre-puberty to compete in women's competitions.
> 
> I don't believe Lia Thomas transitioned to beat women in swimming.  But I believe she was given a gift to be able to transition (a gift that isn't available to many for various reasons) and now she is exploiting that gift.
> 
> Not for all, but for many this isn't an issue of transphobia but an issue of equity.


...is a pre-puberty transitioned male still a male?


----------



## GoldenGate

Lionel Messi and HGH: The Truth About the Best Footballer in the World
					

FC Barcelona  made the best deal in the history of football, signing a young Lionel   Messi   from Argentina at the age of 13.  The contract,  signed on a napkin , was predicated on   FCB   paying for   Messi  's  medical treatments ...




					bleacherreport.com


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you compromise the Truth."
> 
> ~My spin on Voltaire


You're confusing manners with belief.

Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite.  It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.

Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female?  Nope.   XY, no eggs, no ovaries.  Not female.  Do I care?  Also no.  Best of luck to her.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you compromise the Truth."
> 
> ~My spin on Voltaire


Oh I see! I didn’t call my shot. Fair enough.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Not transphobic in the least.
> 
> What people want to do individually I could care less about.
> 
> But when a man wants to compete against women it isnt right. That isnt transphobic. That is a matter of fairness to actual women.
> 
> A guy saying he is a woman doesn't make him so. It does not entitle him to compete in womens sports.
> 
> It is as ridiculous as me a white guy one day saying I am black and demanding you treat me as such and then get affirmative action, loans for minorities, live in minority dorms on campus, etc.


It's unfair that black people "get affirmative action"?  We all know you want to say it.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...is a pre-puberty transitioned male still a male?


Not in terms of chromosomes, no.  But pretty freaking close in terms of biology and appearance.  In fact, if you saw my son's friend (who is FTM) in a women's restroom you'd probably complain about guys using women's restrooms.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You're confusing manners with belief.
> 
> Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite.  It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.
> 
> Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female?  Nope.   XY, no eggs, no ovaries.  Not female.  Do I care?  Also no.  Best of luck to her.


I would just note that when Caitlyn was Bruce he was arguably one of the best male athletes of all-time.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> He would have topped out at under 5





dad4 said:


> You're confusing manners with belief.
> 
> Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite.  It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.
> 
> Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female?  Nope.   XY, no eggs, no ovaries.  Not female.  Do I care?  Also no.  Best of luck to her.


... confusing is an ArithmeLogic Numbers Guy using, of all things, manners as justification for compromising the Truth. But sure, making up words and playing loose with their meanings can be fun and mostly harmless...but, claiming politeness has a role in Truth versus lie is absurd...and you know it. 

I support manners and politeness in letting someone know your unwillingness to compromise the Truth and participate in a lie.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ... confusing is an ArithmeLogic Numbers Guy using, of all things, manners as justification for compromising the Truth. But sure, making up words and playing loose with their meanings can be fun and mostly harmless...but, claiming politeness has a role in Truth versus lie is absurd...and you know it.
> 
> I support manners and politeness in letting someone know your unwillingness to compromise the Truth and participate in a lie.


The truth is the NCAA has allowed transgender participation in women's sports for over a decade, and the IOC for two.  The truth is the dictionary is not a sports rule book.  

But if men are men and women are women, why do little shits get their own boxing weight class?  If men were men, they'd all fight each other according to "natural law" and based on the dictionary definition of "man", right?


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> It's unfair that black people "get affirmative action"?  We all know you want to say it.


It is your lack of response that is telling. 

A man pretending to be a women is as silly as me pretending to be another race.

People can do what they want. Where it crosses a line is where they expect us to pretend they are a woman. 

It is a strange/sad world to see so many people/publications praise a MAN for breaking women's sports records.

Ridiculous actually.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> It is your lack of response that is telling.
> 
> A man pretending to be a women is as silly as me pretending to be another race.
> 
> People can do what they want. Where it crosses a line is where they expect us to pretend they are a woman.
> 
> It is a strange/sad world to see so many people/publications praise a MAN for breaking women's sports records.
> 
> Ridiculous actually.


So sad.  Your daughter should give up girls' sports now that transgender women are taking over.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The truth is the NCAA has allowed transgender participation in women's sports for over a decade, and the IOC for two.  The truth is the dictionary is not a sports rule book.
> 
> But if men are men and women are women, why do little shits get their own boxing weight class?  If men were men, they'd all fight each other according to "natural law" and based on the dictionary definition of "man", right?


...the Truth is men are men and women are women...you can play word games and "but if" all you want...the Truth remains without you, nothing you and your type can do will ever change it. Years and decades of doing something has no impact on the Truth... this Truth has existed since the beginning of human time and will forever endure. You, the NCAA, and IOC are deniers of Truth and promote and live lies, which is your right, yet hard as you try you will never overcome the Truth.  I on the other hand, rest well and honorably knowing the truth is on my side and that I will never compromise it. The truth will always prevail.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...the Truth is men are men and women are women...you can play word games and "but if" all you want...the Truth remains without you, nothing you and your type can do will ever change it. Years and decades of doing something has no impact on the Truth... this Truth has existed since the beginning of human time and will forever endure. You, the NCAA, and IOC are deniers of Truth and promote and live lies, which is your right, yet hard as you try you will never overcome the Truth.  I on the other hand, rest well and honorably knowing the truth is on my side and that I will never compromise it. The truth will always prevail.







__





						Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures
					

On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.




					www.pbs.org


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures
> 
> 
> On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


The existence of non gender conforming people is not at issue here.  Go ahead and be you.

The question is whether biological women athletes are permitted their own space where they can compete amongst themselves.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> The existence of non gender conforming people is not at issue here.  Go ahead and be you.
> 
> The question is whether biological women athletes are permitted their own space where they can compete amongst themselves.


...with them it is about all of it, and demanding you swallow it all whole cloth. Seriously, what do you expect from playing along and compromising the Truth...them stopping at non binary gender conform whatevers?

Lies beget lies...quit being naive, in this matter our kids deserve  Truth...and we should all demand it.


----------



## NorCalDad

This popcorn is super tasty!


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures
> 
> 
> On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


If capable...try a thought experiment: if your prized "Diverse Gender Cultures" each consisted of 100 men and 100 transgender men...they would be extinct in 100 years.

The Truth is, cultures exist because men are men and women are women.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...with them it is about all of it, and demanding you swallow it all whole cloth. Seriously, what do you expect from playing along and compromising the Truth...them stopping at non binary gender conform whatevers?
> 
> Lies beget lies...quit being naive, in this matter our kids deserve  Truth...and we should all demand it.


Maybe you could help the other side nominate someone who doesn't think it is "genius" to invade a peaceful democracy.

Or was the great orange one speaking "Truth" when he said that?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> If capable...try a thought experiment: if your prized "Diverse Gender Cultures" each consisted of 100 men and 100 transgender men...they would be extinct in 100 years.
> 
> The Truth is, cultures exist because men are men and women are women.


What does your hypothetical have to do with anything? Now you are just being silly.


----------



## soccersc

@GoldenGate are theses guys crazy….don’t they know they will kill thousands if we take off those mask. But hey, let’s keep them on the kids because they will kill even more….hahaha, so dumb 









						Airlines ask Biden to end mask requirements for planes and airports.
					

The chief executives of American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines and several other passenger and cargo carriers made the request Wednesday.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures
> 
> 
> On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pbs.org


To bring this full circle back to soccer, check out "Next Goal Wins".  Its a documentary about Tonga's men's soccer team's attempt to qualify for the World Cup after losing to Australia 31-0.  One player is a transgender that is the first transgender to play in a WC qualifier...is a biological male but identifies as female (or more accurately a 3rd feminine gender common in Tonga).  So yeah, completely different situation from the swimmer in question.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> He would have topped out at under 5 feet tall without the HGH.  And, yes, he was much faster than your average soccer player.  In fact, he was probably the quickest soccer player in history.  Never would he have had the combination of speed, strength and leverage that he needed to become the player he was without the HGH.


Dr. GG, you crack me up.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> The truth is the NCAA has allowed transgender participation in women's sports for over a decade, and the IOC for two.  The truth is the dictionary is not a sports rule book.
> 
> But if men are men and women are women, why do little shits get their own boxing weight class?  If men were men, they'd all fight each other according to "natural law" and based on the dictionary definition of "man", right?


Yet for far longer they've used, and continue to use, the men's and women's labels to identify each sport, what changed?


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> So sad.  Your daughter should give up girls' sports now that transgender women are taking over.


So sad your daughter ended up with a POS.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is trump still president?


What gave it away, the soaring gas prices or the sky rocketing inflation?


----------



## MicPaPa

NorCalDad said:


> This popcorn is super tasty!


Holding it on your lap with a hole in the bottom?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Maybe you could help the other side nominate someone who doesn't think it is "genius" to invade a peaceful democracy.
> 
> Or was the great orange one speaking "Truth" when he said that?


Sure looks like Daddy continues to live rent free in empty heads.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> So sad.  Your daughter should give up girls' sports now that transgender women are taking over.


That is the problem...calling a transgender a woman doesn't make them a woman. The person/people you talk about are men. 

There is a reason long ago we created women's divisions for sports.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> That is the problem...calling a transgender a woman doesn't make them a woman. The person/people you talk about are men.
> 
> There is a reason long ago we created women's divisions for sports.


Like Chicanos y Chicanas not Mexican enough for Mexicans and not American enough for Americans.


----------



## dad4

NBC's Today show was airbrushing Thomas' photo to make him look more feminine.

This is advocacy, not journalism.  









						Photographer ‘Disappointed’ by Today Show’s Alteration of Lia Thomas Photo
					

Photographer Erica Denhoff was stunned and upset by the Today Show's modification of her photo of Lia Thomas, the transgender athlete




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Desert Hound

You can tell the way the women feel about a man competing against them. 

The man to the left who many say is a woman, and to the right the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place women...who know they are really 1, 2 and 3 in the race.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Maybe you could help the other side nominate someone who doesn't think it is "genius" to invade a peaceful democracy.
> 
> Or was the great orange one speaking "Truth" when he said that?


...you know what a Truth is...you also know this is not it. 

...with the Truth on one's side it speaks for itself...lies and these weak deceptive statements are not necessary.

...BTW, it is sad that someone of your intelligence is still playing the Trump thing. Do better.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> NBC's Today show was airbrushing Thomas' photo to make him look more feminine.
> 
> This is advocacy, not journalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photographer ‘Disappointed’ by Today Show’s Alteration of Lia Thomas Photo
> 
> 
> Photographer Erica Denhoff was stunned and upset by the Today Show's modification of her photo of Lia Thomas, the transgender athlete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com


...lies beget lies and require deception...imagine that.

...the fools are not the liars living the lie, they obviously reveal themselves as such...the real fools are those who know the Truth, yet compromise it and play along with the charade.


----------



## met61

Desert Hound said:


> You can tell the way the women feel about a man competing against them.
> 
> The man to the left who many say is a woman, and to the right the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place women...who know they are really 1, 2 and 3 in the race.
> 
> View attachment 13136


...they courageously stood with the Truth and refused to compromise it...well done ladies!

...where are the Fathers? it is sad their Fathers, and more, did not make a similar stand...although, I may have missed it or a media blackout.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> If capable...try a thought experiment: if your prized "Diverse Gender Cultures" each consisted of 100 men and 100 transgender men...they would be extinct in 100 years.
> 
> The Truth is, cultures exist because men are men and women are women.


That would also be true if all biological men were impotent like you.


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> To bring this full circle back to soccer, check out "Next Goal Wins".  Its a documentary about Tonga's men's soccer team's attempt to qualify for the World Cup after losing to Australia 31-0.  One player is a transgender that is the first transgender to play in a WC qualifier...is a biological male but identifies as female (or more accurately a 3rd feminine gender common in Tonga).  So yeah, completely different situation from the swimmer in question.


...but, the same lie...and the same lack of fortitude by those playing along.

...let's actually be "accurate" - the Truth is a man playing men's soccer...all the other word salad is playing along with foolish theater and lies.


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> ...but, the same lie...and the same lack of fortitude by those playing along.
> 
> ...let's actually be "accurate" - the Truth is a man playing men's soccer...all the other word salad is playing along with foolish theater and lies.


It's a biological male playing a male sport.  That's not a lie.  Samoan culture recognizes the feminine male, or fa'afafine.  Maybe you can go over there and set them straight.  Let me know how that works out for you.

Regardless, of your feelings about LGBT people its a great movie, and the fa'afafine is only one character in a cast of many.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> @GoldenGate are theses guys crazy….don’t they know they will kill thousands if we take off those mask. But hey, let’s keep them on the kids because they will kill even more….hahaha, so dumb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airlines ask Biden to end mask requirements for planes and airports.
> 
> 
> The chief executives of American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines and several other passenger and cargo carriers made the request Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Ha ha.  I never said that masks are needed for everything going forward.  Just that if your snowflake child jumps off a bridge, it isn't because they had to wear a mask at school, it is because you have spent the last two years feeling sorry for yourself instead of getting your shit together.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> NBC's Today show was airbrushing Thomas' photo to make him look more feminine.
> 
> This is advocacy, not journalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photographer ‘Disappointed’ by Today Show’s Alteration of Lia Thomas Photo
> 
> 
> Photographer Erica Denhoff was stunned and upset by the Today Show's modification of her photo of Lia Thomas, the transgender athlete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com


OMG, MSNBC and the NCAA are both in on the conspiracy?!?  This is just like the Sandy Hook false flag operation.  Clarence Thomas' wife should text Mark Meadows about it.  Maybe they can put on their viking hats and storm the Capitol again.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Yet for far longer they've used, and continue to use, the men's and women's labels to identify each sport, what changed?


The National League banned black players for more years than it hasn't.  What changed?


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> It's a biological male playing a male sport.  That's not a lie.  Samoan culture recognizes the feminine male, or fa'afafine.  Maybe you can go over there and set them straight.  Let me know how that works out for you.
> 
> Regardless, of your feelings about LGBT people its a great movie, and the fa'afafine is only one character in a cast of many.


...Samoa is free to play whatever games they want with the Truth, it is not my concern...my concern is my family's country and ensuring my kids and our society respect and is grounded in Truth...history clearly has shown, the woke left continue to erode the Truth will never be satisfied...as the ranks of enablers grow.

...it really is clear and simple...my feelings are not at issue, when one presents in kind...I am polite and respectful towards all people...what is at issue is I stand by the Truth and refuse to accept and enable lies...it is my role and demanded of me as a Father...for all my kids, but in this case...especially important for my daughter.

...if not principled Men and Fathers, then who?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The National League banned black players for more years than it hasn't.  What changed?


...Truth prevailed...it always does.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...Truth prevailed.


As it has with transgender participation in women's sports.  It's been a full decade with the NCAA and two with the IOC.  I even looked up the definition of "trans woman" in the dictionary, which is apparently the sports rulebook, and I think we're good.


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> OMG, MSNBC and the NCAA are both in on the conspiracy?!?  This is just like the Sandy Hook false flag operation.  Clarence Thomas' wife should text Mark Meadows about it.  Maybe they can put on their viking hats and storm the Capitol again.


This is not the same thing as Sandy Hook or the Capitol riots.  Don't equate those situations and deaths with this debate.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Ha ha.  I never said that masks are needed for everything going forward.  Just that if your snowflake child jumps off a bridge, it isn't because they had to wear a mask at school, it is because you have spent the last two years feeling sorry for yourself instead of getting your shit together.


Of course...if they aren't needed in an airplane where you are confined in a small space for hours with poor ventilation then when would they be needed? How about never


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Of course...if they aren't needed in an airplane where you are confined in a small space for hours with poor ventilation then when would they be needed? How about never


IKR.  It is just so depressing what happened to your children.  So horrific. I don't know why they haven't jumped already.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> This is not the same thing as Sandy Hook or the Capitol riots.  Don't equate those situations and deaths with this debate.


Do you mean to say that transgender participation in women's sports isn't a big deal?  If so, it sounds like we agree.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> As it has with transgender participation in women's sports.  It's been a full decade with the NCAA and two with the IOC.  I even looked up the definition of "trans woman" in the dictionary, which is apparently the sports rulebook, and I think we're good.


...definitions, thus, words can be changed...and often have been changed in dictionaries for woke purposes and by governments to serve agendas...recently, the CDC changed the long-standing definition of vaccine & vaccination without clear Scientific basis.

...your lies require deceptive explanations through the fluidity of definitions and words...My Truth is clearly defined and stands on its own.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> Do you mean to say that transgender participation in women's sports isn't a big deal?  If so, it sounds like we agree.



So, your opinion will change when it becomes a big deal?


----------



## whatithink

met61 said:


> ...Samoa is free to play whatever games they want with the Truth, it is not my concern...my concern is my family's country and ensuring my kids and our society respect and is grounded in Truth...history clearly has shown, the woke left continue to erode the Truth will never be satisfied...as the ranks of enablers grow.
> 
> ...it really is clear and simple...my feelings are not at issue, when one presents in kind...I am polite and respectful towards all people...what is at issue is I stand by the Truth and refuse to accept and enable lies...it is my role and demanded of me as a Father...for all my kids, but in this case...especially important for my daughter.
> 
> ...if not principled Men and Fathers, then who?


How about principled Women and Mothers, or don't they get a say? Your posts have a continual undercurrent of misogyny to me. It's all about men must do this or that etc. You don't talk about parents with respects to supporting or protecting our kids etc., just men/fathers. Pretty weird tbh, and if that's how you think, you need to grow up.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like Chicanos y Chicanas not Mexican enough for Mexicans and not American enough for Americans.


yea, totally the same - great use of biology, science, and stuff..brilliant comparison.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Ha ha.  I never said that masks are needed for everything going forward.  Just that if *your snowflake child jumps off a bridge*, it isn't because they had to wear a mask at school, it is because you have spent the last two years feeling sorry for yourself instead of getting your shit together.


so tuff! keeping it real, raw, and edgy.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  It is just so depressing what happened to your children.  So horrific. I don't know why they haven't jumped already.


another nice one, so tuff.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

what-happened said:


> another nice one, so tuff.


A real big keyboard warrior, so thirsty for attention.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...definitions, thus, words can be changed...and often have been changed in dictionaries for woke purposes and by governments to serve agendas...recently, the CDC changed the long-standing definition of vaccine & vaccination without clear Scientific basis.
> 
> ...your lies require deceptive explanations through the fluidity of definitions and words...My Truth is clearly defined and stands on its own.


Mirriam Webster is part of the conspiracy too?


----------



## GoldenGate

whatithink said:


> How about principled Women and Mothers, or don't they get a say? Your posts have a continual undercurrent of misogyny to me. It's all about men must do this or that etc. You don't talk about parents with respects to supporting or protecting our kids etc., just men/fathers. Pretty weird tbh, and if that's how you think, you need to grow up.


We really need Ginni Thomas to get to the bottom of this.  Maybe you should release the Kraken on transgender participation in women's sports.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> We really need Ginni Thomas to get to the bottom of this.  Maybe you should release the Kraken on transgender participation in women's sports.


sounds like you also need to consult a biologist.  The sheep life is a good life for you.  I can send over a brochure that we use for education purposes.  It might prove helpful


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Mirriam Webster is part of the conspiracy too?


...Truth stands on its own...your lies will always crumble in the face of Truth...my post you are  responding to Stands.









						Oxford dictionaries change 'sexist' definitions of the word 'woman' after online petition
					

Oxford University Press changed its entry for "woman" in its dictionaries after a petition called the previous definitions "sexist."



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> yea, totally the same - great use of biology, science, and stuff..brilliant comparison.


Not even close, just a thought. I do find it telling you are unable to see the gist of the idea.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not even close, just a thought. I do find it telling you are unable to see the gist of the idea.


What a mysterious tale you tell.  Why is it that science is only applicable if it supports certain societal agendas?  It's either science or it isn't.  And yes, science changes...so if there is proof  of the evolution of sex in the human fossil record, please point it out.  And please don't hide behind the social construct of gender - that's a completely different argument that consumes social warriors.  I'm not interested in that argument, identify how you want, doesn't bother me.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> How about principled Women and Mothers, or don't they get a say? Your posts have a continual undercurrent of misogyny to me. It's all about men must do this or that etc. You don't talk about parents with respects to supporting or protecting our kids etc., just men/fathers. Pretty weird tbh, and if that's how you think, you need to grow up.


...you have read-in motives to my statements that are not present and assigned intent to the opposite meaning of statements you felt I should have talked about...although, your assessment is flawed…I can understand it, given the current culture, toxic environment, and erosion of the Truth.

...my guess is I am considerably older than you...and as I continue to believe in and practice the traditional role of a man, there is a lot I can say...but I'll choose to sum it up with one question: 

Do you believe in times of safety, emergency, and threat...the traditional principal of "Women and Children First" is misogyny?


----------



## watfly

met61 said:


> Do you believe in times of safety, emergency, and threat...the traditional principal of "Women and Children First" is misogyny?


Apparently the concept of "women and children first" is not even a consideration in the progressive agenda.  The dogma takes priority. Other lost concepts are the "golden rule" and "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me".   Instead they appear to have added the inalienable right "to be offended" to the Bill of Rights.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> What a mysterious tale you tell.  Why is it that science is only applicable if it supports certain societal agendas?  It's either science or it isn't.  And yes, science changes...so if there is proof  of the evolution of sex in the human fossil record, please point it out.  And please don't hide behind the social construct of gender - that's a completely different argument that consumes social warriors.  I'm not interested in that argument, identify how you want, doesn't bother me.


Let the commissioners decide not my gig. Well over my pay grade.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Apparently the concept of "women and children first" is not even a consideration in the progressive agenda.  The dogma takes priority. Other lost concepts are the "golden rule" and "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me".   Instead they appear to have added the inalienable right "to be offended" to the Bill of Rights.


You sound hurt and confused. Do you know anyone personally that adheres to the tenets you have attributed here?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You sound hurt and confused. Do you know anyone personally that adheres to the tenets you have attributed here?


I do get confused when people attempt to deny reality.  As far as the tenets go, I still teach these to my kids and most people I associate with try to adhere to them.  Admittedly, though the "golden rule" is a tough one, but we all need goals.

I'm a big devotee of "Names will never hurt me".  For example you calling me "hurt and confused" is a reflection on you, not me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I do get confused when people attempt to deny reality.  As far as the tenets go, I still teach these to my kids and most people I associate with try to adhere to them.  Admittedly, though the "golden rule" is a tough one, but we all need goals.
> 
> I'm a big devotee of "Names will never hurt me".  For example you calling me "hurt and confused" is a reflection on you, not me.


Seems like people are disappointing you. Who in particular is letting you down? Or is that too personal of a question?


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> Do you mean to say that transgender participation in women's sports isn't a big deal?  If so, it sounds like we agree.


I don't agree with you comparing these things because they have nothing in common.  Don't assume because you know what that does.

While sports is definitely not as serious as school shootings and insurrections, it is very meaningful to a lot of girls who dedicate a lot of time to it.  I'm fully in support of everyone's right to do as they wish until it infringes on others ability to do what they wish too.  When there are conflicts, we have to work them out to see how best to deal with the conflict.

You're not listening and minimizing other people's concerns.  If sports is really insignificant, ask transgenders not to participate in them.  After all, they're insignificant so it shouldn't matter to transgenders too. If you're unwilling to do that than don't ask that of genetic females. Competitive sports is significant because people spend a lot of time and passion towards it.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I do know there are legitimate concerns to work through.  Transphobia is not the issue.  You can't throw out name calling "phobia" words at every turn to shut down any conversation.

No one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives but conflicts exist and need to be resolved.

If  transgenders want to play a sport to be with females, then why not just stick to rec sports where athletes are not dedicating significant amount of hours to compete?  If they want to be in a competitive environment, it should align with the science chromosomes because female sports were created separately for genetic females due to scientific differences.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Emma said:


> I don't agree with you comparing these things because they have nothing in common.  Don't assume because you know what that does.
> 
> While sports is definitely not as serious as school shootings and insurrections, it is very meaningful to a lot of girls who dedicate a lot of time to it.  I'm fully in support of everyone's right to do as they wish until it infringes on others ability to do what they wish too.  When there are conflicts, we have to work them out to see how best to deal with the conflict.
> 
> You're not listening and minimizing other people's concerns.  If sports is really insignificant, ask transgenders not to participate in them.  After all, they're insignificant so it shouldn't matter to transgenders too. If you're unwilling to do that than don't ask that of genetic females. Competitive sports is significant because people spend a lot of time and passion towards it.
> 
> I'm not sure what the answer is but I do know there are legitimate concerns to work through.  Transphobia is not the issue.  You can't throw out name calling "phobia" words at every turn to shut down any conversation.
> 
> No one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives but conflicts exist and need to be resolved.
> 
> If  transgenders want to play a sport to be with females, then why not just stick to rec sports where athletes are not dedicating significant amount of hours to compete?  If they want to be in a competitive environment, it should align with the science chromosomes because female sports were created separately for genetic females due to scientific differences.


I am quite sure most caught in between, two-spirits, wish they were born fully one way or the other, but I may be wrong.


----------



## whatithink

met61 said:


> ...you have read-in motives to my statements that are not present and assigned intent to the opposite meaning of statements you felt I should have talked about...although, your assessment is flawed…I can understand it, given the current culture, toxic environment, and erosion of the Truth.
> 
> ...my guess is I am considerably older than you...and as I continue to believe in and practice the traditional role of a man, there is a lot I can say...but I'll choose to sum it up with one question:
> 
> Do you believe in times of safety, emergency, and threat...the traditional principal of "Women and Children First" is misogyny?


I have no problem with women and children first. It's "traditional" as it's the future of the tribe.

I do think the premise of  



met61 said:


> ...if not principled Men and Fathers, then who?


is beyond dated as if to say there is nobody else, hence making any principled women & mothers redundant/useless, especially when you are talking about a societal "issue" where men have no more or less to say than women.

To the whole trans gender thing, oddly enough only this week my son was out helping a neighbor and came home and mention another neighbor, let's say Mike. I said, do you mean Mary, and he replied, no, it's Mike now as he identifies as a he. No big deal to him, didn't make any type of deal with it, it just is what it is. It seems to me, by this thread that it's the parents - us older folk - who seem to have an "issue" with it. The kids aren't bothered either way. We could learn from them.

As for the sports aspect, well the swimmer in Q clearly has a physical advantage because of maturing as a male. That doesn't strike me as particularly fair from a sporting perspective, but I'm ambivalent to it TBH. Its college sports, not life or death stuff. It's also rare. There are far more important things that deserve far more attention.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Let the commissioners decide not my gig. Well over my pay grade.


wait wut?  Can you tell the difference between a boy and a girl dog?  Do you need a vet to do that?  I wonder what type of doctor Canadian player Quinn goes to..  I mean, really?  Human biology is rather straight forward.  Human psychology, well, that's certainly a different ball game.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems like people are disappointing you. Who in particular is letting you down? Or is that too personal of a question?


1) Public high school principals, teachers and staff
2) The USA men's 4x100 meter relay team (but only every 4 years)
3) People that drive in the passing lane


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> wait wut?  Can you tell the difference between a boy and a girl dog?  Do you need a vet to do that?  I wonder what type of doctor Canadian player Quinn goes to..  I mean, really?  Human biology is rather straight forward.  Human psychology, well, that's certainly a different ball game.


Now you are just being silly.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Now you are just being silly.


It strikes me as unfair to bring up Quinn in that manner.

Quinn was born female and plays in a female league.  There is no unfair advantage at all.  Just a great player.  Enjoy their games.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> It strikes me as unfair to bring up Quinn in that manner.
> 
> Quinn was born female and plays in a female league.  There is no unfair advantage at all.  Just a great player.  Enjoy their games.


Like all “discussions” in here (that some take personally for some reason?) it’s a pointless argument. One can vent or point out some of the reasoning involved, but it’s just an exercise in futility. The realities are so twisted the truth is never quite reached as ideology and ego get in the way. Write your representative don’t act as if something is being settled in here of all places! Lol!


----------



## baldref

Hüsker Dü said:


> but I may be wrong.


only thing you've said in years that is true. Congrats


----------



## Hüsker Dü

baldref said:


> only thing you've said in years that is true. Congrats


I always reserve the right to be wrong.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like all “discussions” in here (that some take personally for some reason?) it’s a pointless argument. One can vent or point out some of the reasoning involved, but it’s just an exercise in futility. The realities are so twisted the truth is never quite reached as ideology and ego get in the way. Write your representative don’t act as if something is being settled in here of all places! Lol!


My rep is a progressive.  That wing is pretty unlikely to side with Republicans on a social wedge issue- even if the Republicans happen to be right this time.

Besides, I just wrote about providing more meaningful military assistance to Ukraine.   It is clearly the more important message.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> My rep is a progressive.  That wing is pretty unlikely to side with Republicans on a social wedge issue- even if the Republicans happen to be right this time.
> 
> Besides, I just wrote about providing more meaningful military assistance to Ukraine.   It is clearly the more important message.


...I see you as a flag in the wind...rather than the flag pole, planted in firm ground. 

...playing along and compromising the Truth results in drifting, shifting, and contradictory principles.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> I have no problem with women and children first. It's "traditional" as it's the future of the tribe.
> 
> I do think the premise of
> 
> 
> 
> is beyond dated as if to say there is nobody else, hence making any principled women & mothers redundant/useless, especially when you are talking about a societal "issue" where men have no more or less to say than women.
> 
> To the whole trans gender thing, oddly enough only this week my son was out helping a neighbor and came home and mention another neighbor, let's say Mike. I said, do you mean Mary, and he replied, no, it's Mike now as he identifies as a he. No big deal to him, didn't make any type of deal with it, it just is what it is. It seems to me, by this thread that it's the parents - us older folk - who seem to have an "issue" with it. The kids aren't bothered either way. We could learn from them.
> 
> As for the sports aspect, well the swimmer in Q clearly has a physical advantage because of maturing as a male. That doesn't strike me as particularly fair from a sporting perspective, but I'm ambivalent to it TBH. Its college sports, not life or death stuff. It's also rare. There are far more important things that deserve far more attention.


...my guess is you don't see the irony and contradictions in this... Although I appreciate you taking the time to respond, for me, this is not a conversation worth having.


----------



## met61

whatithink said:


> I have no problem with women and children first. It's "traditional" as it's the future of the tribe.
> 
> I do think the premise of
> 
> 
> 
> is beyond dated as if to say there is nobody else, hence making any principled women & mothers redundant/useless, especially when you are talking about a societal "issue" where men have no more or less to say than women.
> 
> To the whole trans gender thing, oddly enough only this week my son was out helping a neighbor and came home and mention another neighbor, let's say Mike. I said, do you mean Mary, and he replied, no, it's Mike now as he identifies as a he. No big deal to him, didn't make any type of deal with it, it just is what it is. It seems to me, by this thread that it's the parents - us older folk - who seem to have an "issue" with it. The kids aren't bothered either way. We could learn from them.
> 
> As for the sports aspect, well the swimmer in Q clearly has a physical advantage because of maturing as a male. That doesn't strike me as particularly fair from a sporting perspective, but I'm ambivalent to it TBH. Its college sports, not life or death stuff. It's also rare. There are far more important things that deserve far more attention.


...although, since you did take the time to reach out to me, I do feel compelled to offer you my opinion...without knowing you beyond your two responses, I'd say you actively look to be offended and a victim. Again, just my opinion.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> My rep is a progressive.  That wing is pretty unlikely to side with Republicans on a social wedge issue- even if the Republicans happen to be right this time.
> 
> Besides, I just wrote about providing more meaningful military assistance to Ukraine.   It is clearly the more important message.


I mostly agree with not allowing men to compete in women’s competitions, but the disgusting way most posters have portrayed the issue demands rebuttal. Let the competition committee’s decide . . . as conservatives use to say (not many real conservatives get a say anymore as they are screamed down by trumpist) “let the market work it out”. If women don’t like the committee’s decision they should boycott. Seems like another manufactured culture war issue where there isn’t much there there. If you can’t get by on policy make stuff up.


----------



## MicPaPa

baldref said:


> only thing you've said in years that is true. Congrats


Fact Check: TRUE


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> I mostly agree with not allowing men to compete in women’s competitions, but the disgusting way most posters have portrayed the issue demands rebuttal. Let the competition committee’s decide . . . as conservatives use to say (not many real conservatives get a say anymore as they are screamed down by trumpist) “let the market work it out”. If women don’t like the committee’s decision they should boycott. Seems like another manufactured culture war issue where there isn’t much there there. If you can’t get by on policy make stuff up.


Translation: Let woke leftist loons decide.


----------



## Brav520

MicPaPa said:


> Translation: Let woke leftist loons decide.


why make this an issue , it’s no big deal

same people 3 years ago screamed “ believe all woman “

this week a SCOTUS nominee couldn’t answer what a woman is

but no big deal


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Translation: Let woke leftist loons decide.


Why do you think the leaders in this world are all “leftist loons”?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> I mostly agree with not allowing men to compete in women’s competitions, but the disgusting way most posters have portrayed the issue demands rebuttal. Let the competition committee’s decide . . . as conservatives use to say (not many real conservatives get a say anymore as they are screamed down by trumpist) “let the market work it out”. If women don’t like the committee’s decision they should boycott. Seems like another manufactured culture war issue where there isn’t much there there. If you can’t get by on policy make stuff up.


Women should boycott?

How, exactly, do you propose female college students go about boycotting the NCAA?  It is not very workable if you think about it.

NCAA has a responsibility to stand up for women athletes, and they are not living up to it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Translation: Let woke leftist loons decide.


Who should decide?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Women should boycott?
> 
> How, exactly, do you propose female college students go about boycotting the NCAA?  It is not very workable if you think about it.
> 
> NCAA has a responsibility to stand up for women athletes, and they are not living up to it.


“That’s not a woman. We won’t play that game” period.


----------



## Brav520

[/QUOTE]


Hüsker Dü said:


> “That’s not a woman. We won’t play that game” period.


That would take a lot of courage , those girls lives would be ruined 

the woke loons are evil people


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Women should boycott?
> 
> How, exactly, do you propose female college students go about boycotting the NCAA?  It is not very workable if you think about it.
> 
> NCAA has a responsibility to stand up for women athletes, and they are not living up to it.


How many of these questionable athletes are we talking about? How many competitions have they entered or tried to enter? Is this a wide spread issue? Do you feel men are self neutering to win a trophy? Personally this is a boring topic and really only is important to those directly involved.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

That would take a lot of courage , those girls lives would be ruined

the woke loons are evil people
[/QUOTE]
Yes it would, but no, no one’s lives would be ruined (what a drama queen statement!) Women show an enormous amount of courage daily in a world dominated by men. Just to get the vote took courage. To walk down the street takes courage. To be an athlete takes courage. If the athletes stood together they would have the upper hand, but then a group of men would try to tell them how they should act. Women aren’t helpless, they are the stronger sex.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> That would take a lot of courage , those girls lives would be ruined
> 
> the woke loons are evil people


Yes it would, but no, no one’s lives would be ruined (what a drama queen statement!) Women show an enormous amount of courage daily in a world dominated by men. Just to get the vote took courage. To walk down the street takes courage. To be an athlete takes courage. If the athletes stood together they would have the upper hand, but then a group of men would try to tell them how they should act. Women aren’t helpless, they are the stronger sex.
[/QUOTE]

you live in a fantasy world if you don’t believe in the current environment that these girls lives wouldn’t be ruined , how do you expect these girls to get jobs , there are people getting fired for tweets they made in high school


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes it would, but no no one’s lives would be ruined (what a drama queen statement!) Women show an enormous amount of courage daily in a world dominated by men. Just to get the vote took courage. To walk down the street takes courage. To be an athlete takes courage. If the athletes stood together they would have the upper hand, but then a group of men would try to tell them how they should act. Women aren’t helpless, they are the stronger sex.


Praising women does not excuse mistreating them.

The NCAA/HRC standard is that women should all have to be the good girl and pretend they don’t mind when the women’s first place is awarded to a man. 

That’s nonsense.   Of course they mind.  But they don’t want to give up all hope of an endorsement deal by getting labelled “transphobe.”

So they smile for the camera and pretend to be the good girl.  But don’t confuse that with reality.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> you live in a fantasy world if you don’t believe in the current environment that these girls lives wouldn’t be ruined , how do you expect these girls to get jobs , there are people getting fired for tweets they made in high school


Coocoo.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Praising women does not excuse mistreating them.
> 
> The NCAA/HRC standard is that women should all have to be the good girl and pretend they don’t mind when the women’s first place is awarded to a man.
> 
> That’s nonsense.   Of course they mind.  But they don’t want to give up all hope of an endorsement deal by getting labelled “transphobe.”
> 
> So they smile for the camera and pretend to be the good girl.  But don’t confuse that with reality.


How many times has that happened?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Coocoo.


The victim mentality exemplified.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> How many times has that happened?


Good question.  Are the NCAA releasing records?

If no records are kept, you can't assume much either way.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Coocoo.


ill take that response as a compliment , sir


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> ill take that response as a compliment , sir


It’s a prerequisite for the true believers.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> ill take that response as a compliment , sir


Since it is the best you can hope for, that is probably appropriate.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s a prerequisite for the true believers.


I will Do my best to respect the elder(y) men of this board


----------



## BIGD

Apologize if this has already been shared.  It’s worth the read.  You can read the Governors full letter here. 



			https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/read-utah-governors-letter-on-transgender-athlete-ban-veto.html
		


*GOP Utah governor vetoes transgender athlete bill, citing high suicide rates: ‘I want them to live’*

Utah Gov. Spencer Cox became the second Republican governor in the past week to veto a bill that would have barred transgender athletes from competing in girls’ sports, writing an impassioned letter to state GOP leaders on Tuesday explaining his decision.
Get the full experience.Choose your plan
Cox cited “fundamental flaws” in the legislation, known as H.B. 11. But chief among the governor’s concerns were the mental health impacts such a bill could have on transgender youths in the state, he wrote.
Cox’s decision to veto the bill highlights divisions within the Republican Party on the efficacy and morality of bills restricting the lives of young trans people. GOP leaders in Utah said they plan to override Cox’s veto, which would require approval from two-thirds of the state’s lawmakers.
Indiana’s GOP governor vetoes bill banning transgender girls from female sports in schools, citing ‘unanswered questions’
In Cox’s letter, which was also posted on Twitter, the governor cited several reasons he was going against H.B. 11. He raised concerns about substantial last-minute changes to the bill’s content; the potential economic and legal backlash; and a “broad misunderstanding” around the participation of transgender youth in sports.


----------



## dad4

BIGD said:


> Apologize if this has already been shared.  It’s worth the read.  You can read the Governors full letter here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/read-utah-governors-letter-on-transgender-athlete-ban-veto.html
> 
> 
> 
> *GOP Utah governor vetoes transgender athlete bill, citing high suicide rates: ‘I want them to live’*
> 
> Utah Gov. Spencer Cox became the second Republican governor in the past week to veto a bill that would have barred transgender athletes from competing in girls’ sports, writing an impassioned letter to state GOP leaders on Tuesday explaining his decision.
> Get the full experience.Choose your plan
> Cox cited “fundamental flaws” in the legislation, known as H.B. 11. But chief among the governor’s concerns were the mental health impacts such a bill could have on transgender youths in the state, he wrote.
> Cox’s decision to veto the bill highlights divisions within the Republican Party on the efficacy and morality of bills restricting the lives of young trans people. GOP leaders in Utah said they plan to override Cox’s veto, which would require approval from two-thirds of the state’s lawmakers.
> Indiana’s GOP governor vetoes bill banning transgender girls from female sports in schools, citing ‘unanswered questions’
> In Cox’s letter, which was also posted on Twitter, the governor cited several reasons he was going against H.B. 11. He raised concerns about substantial last-minute changes to the bill’s content; the potential economic and legal backlash; and a “broad misunderstanding” around the participation of transgender youth in sports.


Thanks for the link.  Cox's position is well thought out and respectful to both sides.  Definitely worth a read.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Thanks for the link.  Cox's position is well thought out and respectful to both sides.  Definitely worth a read.


Both sides my ass...*"chief among the governor’s concerns were the mental health impacts such a bill could have on transgender youths in the state, he wrote. "*

Hey @dad4 what about the mental health impact on ACTUAL girls and women when this male freak walks in a public bathroom? 

His mental health impact will be the least of his worries if he walks in on my kid.


----------



## MicPaPa

whatithink said:


> I have no problem with women and children first. It's "traditional" as it's the future of the tribe.
> 
> I do think the premise of
> 
> 
> 
> is beyond dated as if to say there is nobody else, hence making any principled women & mothers redundant/useless, especially when you are talking about a societal "issue" where men have no more or less to say than women.
> 
> To the whole trans gender thing, oddly enough only this week my son was out helping a neighbor and came home and mention another neighbor, let's say Mike. I said, do you mean Mary, and he replied, no, it's Mike now as he identifies as a he. No big deal to him, didn't make any type of deal with it, it just is what it is. It seems to me, by this thread that it's the parents - us older folk - who seem to have an "issue" with it. The kids aren't bothered either way. We could learn from them.
> 
> As for the sports aspect, well the swimmer in Q clearly has a physical advantage because of maturing as a male. That doesn't strike me as particularly fair from a sporting perspective, but I'm ambivalent to it TBH. Its college sports, not life or death stuff. It's also rare. There are far more important things that deserve far more attention.


I believe your "principled" response would be quite different than my "principled" response when this male freak walks in on you and/or your daughter versus my daughter in a women's bathroom.


----------



## whatithink

MicPaPa said:


> I believe your "principled" response would be quite different than my "principled" response when this male freak walks in on you and/or your daughter versus my daughter in a women's bathroom.
> 
> View attachment 13141


My response obviously went WHOOSH way over your head.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

whatithink said:


> My response obviously went WHOOSH way over your head.


His body may be older but his mind is still in adolescent mode.


----------



## MicPaPa

whatithink said:


> My response obviously went WHOOSH way over your head.


Sure, over my head. You learn from kids, right? You know, it's no big deal to them.

 My point was spot on.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like all “discussions” in here (that some take personally for some reason?) it’s a pointless argument. One can vent or point out some of the reasoning involved, but it’s just an exercise in futility. The realities are so twisted the truth is never quite reached as ideology and ego get in the way. Write your representative don’t act as if something is being settled in here of all places! Lol!


what are you talking about - is biology not as straightforward as you would like?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> I mostly agree with not allowing men to compete in women’s competitions, but the disgusting way most posters have portrayed the issue demands rebuttal. Let the competition committee’s decide . . . as conservatives use to say (not many real conservatives get a say anymore as they are screamed down by trumpist) “let the market work it out”. If women don’t like the committee’s decision they should boycott. Seems like another manufactured culture war issue where there isn’t much there there. If you can’t get by on policy make stuff up.


read out loud what you just typed.  Please point out the disgusting way this has been portrayed.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> I don't agree with you comparing these things because they have nothing in common.  Don't assume because you know what that does.
> 
> While sports is definitely not as serious as school shootings and insurrections, it is very meaningful to a lot of girls who dedicate a lot of time to it.  I'm fully in support of everyone's right to do as they wish until it infringes on others ability to do what they wish too.  When there are conflicts, we have to work them out to see how best to deal with the conflict.
> 
> You're not listening and minimizing other people's concerns.  If sports is really insignificant, ask transgenders not to participate in them.  After all, they're insignificant so it shouldn't matter to transgenders too. If you're unwilling to do that than don't ask that of genetic females. Competitive sports is significant because people spend a lot of time and passion towards it.
> 
> I'm not sure what the answer is but I do know there are legitimate concerns to work through.  Transphobia is not the issue.  You can't throw out name calling "phobia" words at every turn to shut down any conversation.
> 
> No one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives but conflicts exist and need to be resolved.
> 
> If  transgenders want to play a sport to be with females, then why not just stick to rec sports where athletes are not dedicating significant amount of hours to compete?  If they want to be in a competitive environment, it should align with the science chromosomes because female sports were created separately for genetic females due to scientific differences.


The "conflicts" have been resolved in favor of allowing transgender participation in women's sports.  This was resolved 20 years ago with the IOC and more than a decade ago with the NCAA.

Yes, I can use the word transphobic when it is appropriate, and it is appropriate when someone cannot even accept the legitimacy of the arguments in support of transgender participation in women's sports.  It is also transphobic when people make fake and irrational arguments to oppose transgender participation, such as "it's dangerous" when we're talking about someone swimming in a pool and no one in NCAA history has ever been injured in over a decade because a transgender woman participated in college sports or how the 19th century definition of "woman" is a sports rulebook, or how a transgender woman in the restroom means the end of the world.  The problem here has nothing to do with me being "unwilling" to understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I understand them quite well. The problem is that people like you and your more obviously transphobic friends cannot understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports.   I've weighed the pros and cons and picked one side, but you and your friends aren't willing to weigh anything.  You can't even muster the willingness to accept that there are legitimate arguments on the other side of the debate.  Instead, you're making ridiculous claims that "no one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives", which is utter rubbish and you know it.  You and your friends obviously want them out of sports.  You want them out of the women's restroom.  You want them out of being able to get married if they're in love with someone of the same biological gender, which also means you want them out of the favorable tax and intestate succession laws you enjoy.  You want them out of any business that doesn't want to sell services or products to them. You want to be able to keep mocking them like micpapa because you think it's funny.  It isn't funny for the reasons the Utah governor tried to veto the law.


----------



## nextgenathletics

Just here to remind everyone that leftists attempted an 8-MONTH long, NATIONWIDE insurrection in 2020.

Don't let anyone distract you from that. They will try anything and everything. They will immediately straw man to Jan/6. Ignore it. Keep pressing. Leftists are dictionary defined terrorists. 

Transgender nonsense, inflation, Ukraine, gas prices, climate change, stock market.....all pointless when we have literal domestic terrorists in this country already nationwide; these leftists are ready for a call to action at a moments notice by the democrat establishment media and corporate machine. Don't forget it.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> If  transgenders want to play a sport to be with females, then why not just stick to rec sports where athletes are not dedicating significant amount of hours to compete?  If they want to be in a competitive environment, it should align with the science chromosomes because female sports were created separately for genetic females due to scientific differences.


It sounds to me like your daughter is the one who should stick to rec sports.  I can't imagine she has dedicated nearly as much time to competing as Lia Thomas has her entire life.  In fact, I doubt she is even close to the top 450 or so soccer players in college like Thomas was on the men's side before he started to transition.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> While sports is definitely not as serious as school shootings and insurrections, it is very meaningful to a lot of girls who dedicate a lot of time to it.  I'm fully in support of everyone's right to do as they wish until it infringes on others ability to do what they wish too.  When there are conflicts, we have to work them out to see how best to deal with the conflict.


Your trying to kick transgender women out of women's sports infringes on their ability to do what they wish too.  The NCAA and IOC first addressed that "conflict" over a decade ago.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> The "conflicts" have been resolved in favor of allowing transgender participation in women's sports.  This was resolved 20 years ago with the IOC and more than a decade ago with the NCAA.
> 
> Yes, I can use the word transphobic when it is appropriate, and it is appropriate when someone cannot even accept the legitimacy of the arguments in support of transgender participation in women's sports.  It is also transphobic when people make fake and irrational arguments to oppose transgender participation, such as "it's dangerous" when we're talking about someone swimming in a pool and no one in NCAA history has ever been injured in over a decade because a transgender woman participated in college sports or how the 19th century definition of "woman" is a sports rulebook, or how a transgender woman in the restroom means the end of the world.  The problem here has nothing to do with me being "unwilling" to understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I understand them quite well. The problem is that people like you and your more obviously transphobic friends cannot understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports.   I've weighed the pros and cons and picked one side, but you and your friends aren't willing to weigh anything.  You can't even muster the willingness to accept that there are legitimate arguments on the other side of the debate.  Instead, you're making ridiculous claims that "no one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives", which is utter rubbish and you know it.  You and your friends obviously want them out of sports.  You want them out of the women's restroom.  You want them out of being able to get married if they're in love with someone of the same biological gender, which also means you want them out of the favorable tax and intestate succession laws you enjoy.  You want them out of any business that doesn't want to sell services or products to them. You want to be able to keep mocking them like micpapa because you think it's funny.  It isn't funny for the reasons the Utah governor tried to veto the law.


so many words, so little meaning --- impressive.  It hasn't been resolved, it's been whitewashed.  It's as if biology is no longer a discipline.  Do you know any biologist? You are absurd beyond words but I admire you holding that line.  There is no rule that only allows WOMEN on a WOMEN's team?  Hilarious and absurd.  Do you go to the vet or to your family doctor?  Your common sense appears to be diminishing at an astonishing rate.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> It sounds to me like your daughter is the one who should stick to rec sports.  I can't imagine she has dedicated nearly as much time to competing as Lia Thomas has her entire life.  In fact, I doubt she is even close to the top 450 or so soccer players in college like Thomas was on the men's side before he started to transition.


You certainly have a penchant for going after poster's daughters -why?    By the way, biologist would say that Lia Thomas spent most of his life working hard and competing.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> so many words, so little meaning --- impressive.  It hasn't been resolved, it's been whitewashed.  It's as if biology is no longer a discipline.  Do you know any biologist? You are absurd beyond words but I admire you holding that line.  There is no rule that only allows WOMEN on a WOMEN's team?  Hilarious and absurd.  Do you go to the vet or to your family doctor?  Your common sense appears to be diminishing at an astonishing rate.


So please show me the rule that says a transgender woman cannot play women's collegiate sports?  Because I'm only seeing rules that say the opposite.  You don't get to hide behind a 19th century dictionary.  

Your lack of common sense is astonishing no matter how much you try to whitewash your transphobia.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> You certainly have a penchant for going after poster's daughters -why?    By the way, biologist would say that Lia Thomas spent most of his life working hard and competing.


Uh, Lia Thomas is someone's daughter too.  Every transgender woman is someone's daughter.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> You certainly have a penchant for going after poster's daughters -why?    By the way, biologist would say that Lia Thomas spent most of his life working hard and competing.


In the end, if you can't even refer to a transgender woman as "she", there is nothing you can say that anyone who is serious about this issue, let alone involved in making these decisions, has any respect for.  You come into the conversation telling everyone that you're a transphobe who has no interest in treating transgender women with dignity and respect, so you get none either.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> It sounds to me like your daughter is the one who should stick to rec sports.  I can't imagine she has dedicated nearly as much time to competing as Lia Thomas has her entire life.  In fact, I doubt she is even close to the top 450 or so soccer players in college like Thomas was on the men's side before he started to transition.


Retract the above comment.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> So please show me the *rule* that says a transgender woman cannot play women's collegiate sports?  Because I'm only seeing rules that say the opposite.  You don't get to hide behind a 19th century dictionary.
> 
> Your lack of common sense is astonishing no matter how much you try to whitewash your transphobia.


Rule ?

Biology.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, Lia Thomas is someone's daughter too.  Every transgender woman is someone's daughter.


No.

Will Thomas is someone's biological son.


----------



## espola

nextgenathletics said:


> Just here to remind everyone that leftists attempted an 8-MONTH long, NATIONWIDE insurrection in 2020.
> 
> Don't let anyone distract you from that. They will try anything and everything. They will immediately straw man to Jan/6. Ignore it. Keep pressing. Leftists are dictionary defined terrorists.
> 
> Transgender nonsense, inflation, Ukraine, gas prices, climate change, stock market.....all pointless when we have literal domestic terrorists in this country already nationwide; these leftists are ready for a call to action at a moments notice by the democrat establishment media and corporate machine. Don't forget it.


Is there a way to declare a thread dead after a given number of posts in topics unrelated to the original theme?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> It's as if biology is no longer a discipline.


What point are you trying to make regarding biology?


----------



## GoldenGate

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> What point are you trying to make regarding biology?


He's just trying to rationalize being transphobic, and the dictionary wasn't helping his cause.  Of course, because gender identity is also based on biology, that doesn't help him either.  NCAA sports participation rules are determined by the NCAA, not a dictionary, and not one part of "biology" that he likes to the exclusion of the rest.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> He's just trying to rationalize being transphobic, and the dictionary wasn't helping his cause.  Of course,* because gender identity is also based on biology, *that doesn't help him either.  NCAA sports participation rules are determined by the NCAA, not a dictionary, and not one part of "biology" that he likes to the exclusion of the rest.


Really?  please splain. I can't wait for you to explain science..


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The "conflicts" have been resolved in favor of allowing transgender participation in women's sports.  This was resolved 20 years ago with the IOC and more than a decade ago with the NCAA.
> 
> Yes, I can use the word transphobic when it is appropriate, and it is appropriate when someone cannot even accept the legitimacy of the arguments in support of transgender participation in women's sports.  It is also transphobic when people make fake and irrational arguments to oppose transgender participation, such as "it's dangerous" when we're talking about someone swimming in a pool and no one in NCAA history has ever been injured in over a decade because a transgender woman participated in college sports or how the 19th century definition of "woman" is a sports rulebook, or how a transgender woman in the restroom means the end of the world.  The problem here has nothing to do with me being "unwilling" to understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I understand them quite well. The problem is that people like you and your more obviously transphobic friends cannot understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports.   I've weighed the pros and cons and picked one side, but you and your friends aren't willing to weigh anything.  You can't even muster the willingness to accept that there are legitimate arguments on the other side of the debate.  Instead, you're making ridiculous claims that "no one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives", which is utter rubbish and you know it.  You and your friends obviously want them out of sports.  You want them out of the women's restroom.  You want them out of being able to get married if they're in love with someone of the same biological gender, which also means you want them out of the favorable tax and intestate succession laws you enjoy.  You want them out of any business that doesn't want to sell services or products to them. You want to be able to keep mocking them like micpapa because you think it's funny.  It isn't funny for the reasons the Utah governor tried to veto the law.


...so basically a lie.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...so basically a lie.


So basically exactly transphobia.


----------



## GoldenGate

nextgenathletics said:


> Just here to remind everyone that leftists attempted an 8-MONTH long, NATIONWIDE insurrection in 2020.
> 
> Don't let anyone distract you from that. They will try anything and everything. They will immediately straw man to Jan/6. Ignore it. Keep pressing. Leftists are dictionary defined terrorists.
> 
> Transgender nonsense, inflation, Ukraine, gas prices, climate change, stock market.....all pointless when we have literal domestic terrorists in this country already nationwide; these leftists are ready for a call to action at a moments notice by the democrat establishment media and corporate machine. Don't forget it.


Yes, we are out to get you.  Pretty soon we'll all have you in prison camps.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> So basically exactly transphobia.


XY is male
XX is female

All the exterior surgery and hormone/testosterone therapy
will not change the basic skeletal/muscle structures inherent
to the human at birth.

It's just a fact.

A male who has competed at the level Thomas has and then 
decides to compete against females is just plain cheating.
Nothing will prove otherwise.

Facts are Facts.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> XY is male
> XX is female
> 
> All the exterior surgery and hormone/testosterone therapy
> will not change the basic skeletal/muscle structures inherent
> to the human at birth.
> 
> It's just a fact.
> 
> A male who has competed at the level Thomas has and then
> decides to compete against females is just plain cheating.
> Nothing will prove otherwise.
> 
> Facts are Facts.


Since when does complying with the rules to participate constitute cheating?  Why are you even calling someone who is following the rules a cheater? Could it be because you're transphobic?  Again, because people like you can't treat transgender women with dignity and respect, you get no dignity and respect either.

So are you saying all co-ed sports must be illegal because men are men and women are women?  Or just the ones you care about because "competitive" sports, as you define them, are "different" because "biology" cares about the difference between NCAA and intramural sports?  Are you saying businesses like the IOC and NCAA shouldn't be allowed to set their own rules about who can participate?  And since when did all of you "principled" conservatives decide that businesses should be allowed to do whatever they like - unless it is something you don't like?  Is this all happening because you and your friends were never actually principled at all?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

nextgenathletics said:


> Just here to remind everyone that leftists attempted an 8-MONTH long, NATIONWIDE insurrection in 2020.
> 
> Don't let anyone distract you from that. They will try anything and everything. They will immediately straw man to Jan/6. Ignore it. Keep pressing. Leftists are dictionary defined terrorists.
> 
> Transgender nonsense, inflation, Ukraine, gas prices, climate change, stock market.....all pointless when we have literal domestic terrorists in this country already nationwide; these leftists are ready for a call to action at a moments notice by the democrat establishment media and corporate machine. Don't forget it.


Either sarcasm or this is example A of batshit crazy and proud of it. Talk about politically Pavlovian.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, we are out to get you.  Pretty soon we'll all have you in prison camps.


We can make them work on the bullet train tracks!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

thirteenknots said:


> XY is male
> XX is female
> 
> It's just a fact.


Meiotic sex chromosome non-disjunctions are not that infrequent in humans.  XXY individuals, for example, occur with an ~1000X higher frequency than the frequency of myocarditis associated with covid mRNA vaccines that people were so worked up about. There's a spectrum of feminization, affected by genetic variation on the Y and mosaicism associated with X inactivation on a cell by cell basis.  Nothing in genetics is truly binary.


----------



## dad4

If it is all about transphobia, why is there no one complaining about female to male athletes in men's sport?

Do you think the world is full of demi-transphobes who hate half of the trans population, but welcome the other half?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> If it is all about transphobia, why is there no one complaining about female to male athletes in men's sport?
> 
> Do you think the world is full of demi-transphobes who hate half of the trans population, but welcome the other half?


No…it’s just easier to slap a derogatory label on someone than to try and understand where they are coming from. 

This way you elicit an emotional response rather than an intelligent one that you can’t refute.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Meiotic sex chromosome non-disjunctions are not that infrequent in humans.  XXY individuals, for example, occur with an ~1000X higher frequency than the frequency of myocarditis associated with covid mRNA vaccines that people were so worked up about. There's a spectrum of feminization, affected by genetic variation on the Y and mosaicism associated with X inactivation on a cell by cell basis.  Nothing in genetics is truly binary.


sure, but good try.   Klinefelters is a completely different topic that involves a mulit faceted treatment approach, if diagnozed early.   Often times a boy/man is unaware of having an extra X.  Boys/men with Klinefelter are still genetically male.  The X chromosome isn't neccessarily the "female" chromosome, it's present in everyone (but you already knew that).  The presence of the Y chromosome is what denotes sex, and that is something you can't change.  There are studies suggesting the Y chromome see  to be decaying over time and may one day become extinct...if that pans out, then we are f'd anyway.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No…it’s just easier to slap a derogatory label on someone than to try and understand where they are coming from.
> 
> This way you elicit an emotional response rather than an intelligent one that you can’t refute.


I feel it’s the non wavering, “I won’t even discuss the reasoning because it’s wrong!”, sticking to the binary ideal, coupled with the occasional snarky put down or slight that draws the “transphobic” label (I would simply say “change phobic” or simply “intolerant of evolved information” aka science). This all seems apart of the anti-science movement so prevalent in rightwing circles.








						Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia
					

Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary




					blogs.scientificamerican.com


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> If it is all about transphobia, why is there no one complaining about female to male athletes in men's sport?
> 
> Do you think the world is full of demi-transphobes who hate half of the trans population, but welcome the other half?


Honestly, that may be the most ridiculous of your ridiculous arguments.  None of you are welcoming "the other half".  Just as you and your friends refuse to call a transgender woman "she", you also refuse to call a trans man "he".  You're just putting up with them because they cause you less trouble and therefore you have less opportunity to treat them like shit.  Transgender women are murdered at 6x the rate of transgender men. People clearly have a much bigger problem with transgender men than women.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> sure, but good try.   Klinefelters is a completely different topic that involves a mulit faceted treatment approach, if diagnozed early.   Often times a boy/man is unaware of having an extra X.  Boys/men with Klinefelter are still genetically male.  The X chromosome isn't neccessarily the "female" chromosome, it's present in everyone (but you already knew that).  The presence of the Y chromosome is what denotes sex, and that is something you can't change.  There are studies suggesting the Y chromome see  to be decaying over time and may one day become extinct...if that pans out, then we are f'd anyway.


You were the one that brought up biology.  I'm not trying to say it weighs in one way or another in whatever argument is going on regarding the NCAA, gender identity, whatever.  Genotypically male and phenotypically male aren't the same (ask most KFs who have ever wanted to have kids for example, most are phenotypically sterile).  The only point I'd make regarding using genetics as a sine qua non underpinning fairness in sport is how granular do you want to go?  If one starts teasing apart the Matthew effect for example (easier in high jump, much harder in soccer) the aphorisms that plague youth sports start meaning even less.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No…it’s just easier to slap a derogatory label on someone than to try and understand where they are coming from.
> 
> This way you elicit an emotional response rather than an intelligent one that you can’t refute.


I see, so you and your friends are trying to understand where transgender women, the NCAA, and the IOC are coming from in allowing transgender participation in women's sports for over a decade?  Is that what you think you and your friends are doing when you refer to a trans woman as "he", or mock someone for using the bathroom, or claim the dictionary is a sports rulebook?

Go ahead, identify all of the legitimate reasons that the NCAA has listed in support of transgender participation in women's sports if you're really interested in understanding where they are coming from.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You were the one that brought up biology.  I'm not trying to say it weighs in one way or another in whatever argument is going on regarding the NCAA, gender identity, whatever.  Genotypically male and phenotypically male aren't the same (ask most KFs who have ever wanted to have kids for example, most are phenotypically sterile).  The only point I'd make regarding using genetics as a sine qua non underpinning fairness in sport is how granular do you want to go?  If one starts teasing apart the Matthew effect for example (easier in high jump, much harder in soccer) the aphorisms that plague youth sports start meaning even less.


certainly going down a rabbit hole.  The biology discussion  simply makes reference as to what happens to a male/female after puberty.  Once that happens, it cannot be reversed - ligaments/bones/muscles are set - not something that can be denied.

A post pubescent transwoman has distinct physical attributions that are XY and not XX, just the way it is.  The idea that this doesn't, will, has, led to a general advantage in a physical compeition is comical.  A biological male who has trained at a high level post puberty then chooses to identy as a trans women is likely to see an advantage.  The argument isn't whether to be inclusive of trans gender people in society, it's about fairness in elite level competition.  If biology is to be completely disregarded, then rename Men's and Women's sports to just sports.  If there isn't a rule that says only women can be on women sports teams, then what's the pointof having women's sports?  

The politics is comical


----------



## Hüsker Dü

__ https://www.facebook.com/1790169267976508/photos/a.2739983162995109/3195901094069978


----------



## Kicker 2.0

0-3 on your targeted accusations.

Thirsty much little man?


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> I feel it’s the non wavering, “I won’t even discuss the reasoning because it’s wrong!”, sticking to the binary ideal, coupled with the occasional snarky put down or slight that draws the “transphobic” label (I would simply say “change phobic” or simply “intolerant of evolved information” aka science). This all seems apart of the anti-science movement so prevalent in rightwing circles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia
> 
> 
> Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blogs.scientificamerican.com


It's hard to make any scientific claims around LGBT issues.

Suppose a university scientist published a paper that claimed MTF trans athletes have a significant advantage in sports.

More likely than not, the HRC/GG types would immediately brand him/her as transphobic.  At a minimum, they'd have to worry about future grant funding.  At worst, they'd be quietly dismissed and have difficulty finding employment.

Therefore, most researchers will avoid this topic.  It is both relatively unimportant and a career risk to the author.

That does not mean any scientist thinks Lia Thomas' athletic performance is unrelated to 20 years of testosterone enhanced growth.  It just means not many people will sacrifice their career to say something that obvious.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You were the one that brought up biology.  I'm not trying to say it weighs in one way or another in whatever argument is going on regarding the NCAA, gender identity, whatever.  Genotypically male and phenotypically male aren't the same (ask most KFs who have ever wanted to have kids for example, most are phenotypically sterile).  The only point I'd make regarding using genetics as a sine qua non underpinning fairness in sport is how granular do you want to go?  If one starts teasing apart the Matthew effect for example (easier in high jump, much harder in soccer) the aphorisms that plague youth sports start meaning even less.


I believe we are talking about chromosomally normal XY athletes competing in contests otherwise reserved for XX athletes.

Kleinfelter's and 46XY are an interesting question, but not one which applies to the topic at hand.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> certainly going down a rabbit hole.  The biology discussion  simply makes reference as to what happens to a male/female after puberty.  Once that happens, it cannot be reversed - ligaments/bones/muscles are set - not something that can be denied.
> 
> A post pubescent transwoman has distinct physical attributions that are XY and not XX, just the way it is.  The idea that this doesn't, will, has, led to a general advantage in a physical compeition is comical.  A biological male who has trained at a high level post puberty then chooses to identy as a trans women is likely to see an advantage.  The argument isn't whether to be inclusive of trans gender people in society, it's about fairness in elite level competition.  If biology is to be completely disregarded, then rename Men's and Women's sports to just sports.  If there isn't a rule that says only women can be on women sports teams, then what's the pointof having women's sports?
> 
> The politics is comical


Yes, women's sports has been destroyed in the more than a decade since the NCAA has allowed transgender participation in women's sports, and two decades by the IOC.  It is completely pointless to have women's sports.

As the NCAA, the IOC and many others see it, a minor "advantage" in a swimming pool outweighs the horrible, abysmal manner in which people treat transgender women outside of it.  If that means one woman on a full ride to the University of Virginia has hurt feelings, well, we can't all have everything and she still has a lot more than virtually every transgender woman.  Sports is not sacred and "equality" is not something that comes on an  a la carte basis.  Because you and others aren't willing to treat transgender women with equality overall, you don't get to have "equality" in the one thing you think is important in life and then turn a blind eye to the other 100 things that aren't even remotely equal.  If you actually want equality, maybe you should start referring to trans women by their preferred gender pronoun and get upset with the other people here who treat transgender women even worse than you.

What is really comical is you claiming that college sports is some sacred cow that everyone else needs to revere.  It was just one race in a pool in compliance with rules that have been in effect for a decade.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I believe we are talking about chromosomally normal XY athletes competing in contests otherwise reserved for XX athletes.
> 
> Kleinfelter's and 46XY are an interesting question, but not one which applies to the topic at hand.


The original claim was that human sexual characteristics are binary.  The reality is there are exceptions that reveal the plasticity of the biology.  It's a fact that the X can impact the phenotypic penetrance of the Y. In genetics, the exceptions almost always prove the rule. That was my original point.  

So it moves, somewhat predictably, to "chromosomally normal", by which I imagine you mean chromosome copy number.  Does that provide a clean cut bracketing of "fairness" in sport competition?  Well, if you want it to, but that is strictly user defined.  Not all X's not all Y's, not all autosomes, are created equal with respect to their contribution to a given trait.  Take any metric you want.  Height for instance-well studied example. Studies of monozygotic twins raised apart, etc, indicate about ~85% of human height is genetically determined, nurture be damned. Youth soccer coaches are intuitive population geneticists.  Little U8 Jr. walks up with mom and dad to the tryout and coach places mom and dad on a percentile, halves the difference.  Depending on the values of the coach, Little Jr. makes the cut or not, even if they had good moments on the pitch. To the extent that variance in a distribution for an individual  trait can be attributed to genetics the overall message is that life is not fair. Take individuals close to the median.  Give them their 10,000 hrs. Do they become outliers?  Youth sports, sure, but don't go complaining about it to Li-Fraumeni families. 

So it seems ironic to me to try and adopt a genetic parameter as a criterion of fairness, when ithe overall message of genetics is that, from a human value standpoint, competitive advantage is intrinsically unfair.  That's not a rabbit hole.  It is a direct, and, from my perspective, important, extension of the argument. Perhaps that is why sport actually exists in the first place, to provide a means to show that chance and pluck matter despite it all.

Look, I read what you wrote about Alan Turing.  I know your heart is in the right place.  But dragging genetics into human value framing issues with adjectives like normal and elite (OK that was the other post) leads PDQ to some historically dark terrain.


----------



## met61

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The original claim was that human sexual characteristics are binary.  The reality is there are exceptions that reveal the plasticity of the biology.  It's a fact that the X can impact the phenotypic penetrance of the Y. In genetics, the exceptions almost always prove the rule. That was my original point.
> 
> So it moves, somewhat predictably, to "chromosomally normal", by which I imagine you mean chromosome copy number.  Does that provide a clean cut bracketing of "fairness" in sport competition?  Well, if you want it to, but that is strictly user defined.  Not all X's not all Y's, not all autosomes, are created equal with respect to their contribution to a given trait.  Take any metric you want.  Height for instance-well studied example. Studies of monozygotic twins raised apart, etc, indicate about ~85% of human height is genetically determined, nurture be damned. Youth soccer coaches are intuitive population geneticists.  Little U8 Jr. walks up with mom and dad to the tryout and coach places mom and dad on a percentile, halves the difference.  Depending on the values of the coach, Little Jr. makes the cut or not, even if they had good moments on the pitch. To the extent that variance in a distribution for an individual  trait can be attributed to genetics the overall message is that life is not fair. Take individuals close to the median.  Give them their 10,000 hrs. Do they become outliers?  Youth sports, sure, but don't go complaining about it to Li-Fraumeni families.
> 
> So it seems ironic to me to try and adopt a genetic parameter as a criterion of fairness, when ithe overall message of genetics is that, from a human value standpoint, competitive advantage is intrinsically unfair.  That's not a rabbit hole.  It is a direct, and, from my perspective, important, extension of the argument. Perhaps that is why sport actually exists in the first place, to provide a means to show that chance and pluck matter despite it all.
> 
> Look, I read what you wrote about Alan Turing.  I know your heart is in the right place.  But dragging genetics into human value framing issues with adjectives like normal and elite (OK that was the other post) leads PDQ to some historically dark terrain.


...lies require yards of BS.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

met61 said:


> ...lies require yards of BS.


It's amazing what the human mind can rationalize if the desire is strong enough. Mid-terms are going to be even more interesting if this board is truly representative of our population and there really are that many people who buy into this gaslighting narrative and say it out loud. I can't wait to hear candidates define what a "woman" is. I'm thinking with the right definition, we may find they are over-represented in areas we thought that they were under-represented. We have so much to learn. Hahahaha!


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, women's sports has been destroyed in the more than a decade since the NCAA has allowed transgender participation in women's sports, and two decades by the IOC.  It is completely pointless to have women's sports.
> 
> As the NCAA, the IOC and many others see it, a minor "advantage" in a swimming pool outweighs the horrible, abysmal manner in which people treat transgender women outside of it.  If that means one woman on a full ride to the University of Virginia has hurt feelings, well, we can't all have everything and she still has a lot more than virtually every transgender woman.  Sports is not sacred and "equality" is not something that comes on an  a la carte basis.  Because you and others aren't willing to treat transgender women with equality overall, you don't get to have "equality" in the one thing you think is important in life and then turn a blind eye to the other 100 things that aren't even remotely equal.  If you actually want equality, maybe you should start referring to trans women by their preferred gender pronoun and get upset with the other people here who treat transgender women even worse than you.
> 
> What is really comical is you claiming that college sports is some sacred cow that everyone else needs to revere.  It was just one race in a pool in compliance with rules that have been in effect for a decade.


Your zig zag skills are amazing.  Why are you insisting that transwomen aren't being treated fairly? I see that my use of he in reference to the time period when she trained and competed as a he offends you.  Get over it, it's fact that she was a he before she was a she.  Biologically she is still a he.  Why are you so afraid of that?  Interesting.  She can identify however she wants, not opposed to it, could really care less.  But the willfull avoidance of science and your continued ridiculous accusations creates such a clownlike environment that you can hardly be taken serious.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's amazing what the human mind can rationalize if the desire is strong enough. Mid-terms are going to be even more interesting if this board is truly representative of our population and there really are that many people who buy into this gaslighting narrative and say it out loud. I can't wait to hear candidates define what a "woman" is. I'm thinking with the right definition, we may find they are over-represented in areas we thought that they were under-represented. We have so much to learn. Hahahaha!


Hahahahahaha!!!!  The mind is here to create brother and boy have we seen some folks create some big lies and the life they want ((have planned for us before our birth)) for all of us.  I believe we were all brought here to be co-creators with the creator, moo.  We can for sure see what one side likes to create, right?  Endless Wars ((Won't send their Elitist kids, only our stupid kids we will send to fight our wars that make us money)), destruction, jab or get fired, spies who lie, lot's of division with a mind that is brainwashed with "Us vs Them 24/7" with all kinds of hate and so much more crazy stuff that has taken over this thread.  No more Jab talk?  My nephew just got out of ICU with a Window Attack.  No joke and he shall make a full recovery.  Dude is now a vegan, go figure.  I now know 5 people who have had blood clot attacks of the heart from the clotting of their blood.  I know 4 people who have died of "natural causes" and all were under 50.  That was what we said when folks died of old age, no?  I never met anyone who had one blood clot and now I know 5.  Insane bro.  I know 7 people who got fired for not submitting to these liars.  Love is the only way out of this mess and some divine help K&S, moo  I know you don't agree with me on anything but you like the fact that I am real. I am as real as they come. Rent was $2300 before this mess and heist on our freedom two years ago and now the same place is going for $3800. Gas was $2, now $6.89 and climbing. I know I should pay my fair share and help support Ukraine but I am broke and if this keeps going the way it is, I will have to leave the State and live off the grid. I want to stay and help humanity but I can;t afford to help and live in Socal. I pray for our men and women who are being asked to deal with Joe and Hunters mess as well as all the other Senators children in the Ukraine. It's bad dude. Seriously, only the elitist who have lot's of rainy day funds still available can ride this out. "What's an extra $5 a gallon of gas to spend" they say. Rent doubles? "Who cares, pay up and help Ukraine take out Vlad." "Send the troops" my elitist pal told me yesterday. I told him he best be prepared to send his son first if he wants to talk like that. Brother Kickingandscreaming we don;t see eye to eye on anything but we both respect each other because were both trying to raise a teenage daughter the best we can and try and help them both play soccer at the highest level. I love you man


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Well…it was good while it lasted……


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The original claim was that human sexual characteristics are binary.  The reality is there are exceptions that reveal the plasticity of the biology.  It's a fact that the X can impact the phenotypic penetrance of the Y. In genetics, the exceptions almost always prove the rule. That was my original point.
> 
> So it moves, somewhat predictably, to "chromosomally normal", by which I imagine you mean chromosome copy number.  Does that provide a clean cut bracketing of "fairness" in sport competition?  Well, if you want it to, but that is strictly user defined.  Not all X's not all Y's, not all autosomes, are created equal with respect to their contribution to a given trait.  Take any metric you want.  Height for instance-well studied example. Studies of monozygotic twins raised apart, etc, indicate about ~85% of human height is genetically determined, nurture be damned. Youth soccer coaches are intuitive population geneticists.  Little U8 Jr. walks up with mom and dad to the tryout and coach places mom and dad on a percentile, halves the difference.  Depending on the values of the coach, Little Jr. makes the cut or not, even if they had good moments on the pitch. To the extent that variance in a distribution for an individual  trait can be attributed to genetics the overall message is that life is not fair. Take individuals close to the median.  Give them their 10,000 hrs. Do they become outliers?  Youth sports, sure, but don't go complaining about it to Li-Fraumeni families.
> 
> So it seems ironic to me to try and adopt a genetic parameter as a criterion of fairness, when ithe overall message of genetics is that, from a human value standpoint, competitive advantage is intrinsically unfair.  That's not a rabbit hole.  It is a direct, and, from my perspective, important, extension of the argument. Perhaps that is why sport actually exists in the first place, to provide a means to show that chance and pluck matter despite it all.
> 
> Look, I read what you wrote about Alan Turing.  I know your heart is in the right place.  But dragging genetics into human value framing issues with adjectives like normal and elite (OK that was the other post) leads PDQ to some historically dark terrain.


Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.

At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.  

As you get closer to college sports, it gets different.  All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts.  It becomes a zero sum game.  If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.

And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters.  Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> The "conflicts" have been resolved in favor of allowing transgender participation in women's sports.  This was resolved 20 years ago with the IOC and more than a decade ago with the NCAA.
> 
> Yes, I can use the word transphobic when it is appropriate, and it is appropriate when someone cannot even accept the legitimacy of the arguments in support of transgender participation in women's sports.  It is also transphobic when people make fake and irrational arguments to oppose transgender participation, such as "it's dangerous" when we're talking about someone swimming in a pool and no one in NCAA history has ever been injured in over a decade because a transgender woman participated in college sports or how the 19th century definition of "woman" is a sports rulebook, or how a transgender woman in the restroom means the end of the world.  The problem here has nothing to do with me being "unwilling" to understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I understand them quite well. The problem is that people like you and your more obviously transphobic friends cannot understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports.   I've weighed the pros and cons and picked one side, but you and your friends aren't willing to weigh anything.  You can't even muster the willingness to accept that there are legitimate arguments on the other side of the debate.  Instead, you're making ridiculous claims that "no one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives", which is utter rubbish and you know it.  You and your friends obviously want them out of sports.  You want them out of the women's restroom.  You want them out of being able to get married if they're in love with someone of the same biological gender, which also means you want them out of the favorable tax and intestate succession laws you enjoy.  You want them out of any business that doesn't want to sell services or products to them. You want to be able to keep mocking them like micpapa because you think it's funny.  It isn't funny for the reasons the Utah governor tried to veto the law.


There you go making assumptions about me and my friends, again.  

Are you saying Caitlyn Jenner is transphobic?  She has the same view I do regarding women's high level competitive sports.

None of the positions you spoke above reflect me and my friends. I probably have one or two but they've been childhood friends I can't remove from my life because they add a lot of humor to it.

The NCAA has realized they need to change the old rules too. They are going to let each sport decide how to manage the situation.   

I support people living their lives the way they want to.  

You seem to be having a problem with understanding that two working minds can have differing positions, and that's very closed minded of you. 

Everyday, I have to balance out my desires and needs vs society (other human beings in the world).  The problem with your position is, you're asking people to not balance any of society's needs with transgender needs.  You're asking society to just give in to transgender desires regardless of how it may affect others.  While I do support most of what my transgender fellow human beings want, I also support women competing at a high level and scientifically, they can't compete against biological male at the highest level.  

I have read a lot of information and taken a lot of time to consider my position.  As a society we are pushing each other to create a solution that will work out, as the IOC and NCAA and currently figuring it out too and changing their rules constantly.  

The restroom thing - most people are not concerned about transgenders, but they were concerned about the straight jerks, child molesters, or perverts, who would abuse the rule and go into the girl's restrooms.  Unisex bathrooms, family bathrooms and single stalls were a good solution.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> Your zig zag skills are amazing.  Why are you insisting that transwomen aren't being treated fairly? I see that my use of he in reference to the time period when she trained and competed as a he offends you.  Get over it, it's fact that she was a he before she was a she.  Biologically she is still a he.  Why are you so afraid of that?  Interesting.  She can identify however she wants, not opposed to it, could really care less.  But the willfull avoidance of science and your continued ridiculous accusations creates such a clownlike environment that you can hardly be taken serious.


You clearly care very much.  Why does it bother you so much to refer to a transgender woman as "she"?  Language and grammar is not "biology", and many languages don't even use different gender pronouns.  Man, it must drive you nuts when people identify their preferred gender pronouns on their email signature lines.

Can you explain again why "science' makes it impossible for a transgender woman to swim in a race against biological women?  I'm having a hard time believing that given that we have all seen it actually happen.  That, of course, stands in contrast to an all powerful invisible man in the sky who told everyone to kill trans women up until he changed his mind.  Can you please explain the "science" behind that while you're at it.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.
> 
> At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.
> 
> As you get closer to college sports, it gets different.  All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts.  It becomes a zero sum game.  If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.
> 
> And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters.  Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.


No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas.  Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.  

If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction.  I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> There you go making assumptions about me and my friends, again.
> 
> Are you saying Caitlyn Jenner is transphobic?  She has the same view I do regarding women's high level competitive sports.
> 
> None of the positions you spoke above reflect me and my friends. I probably have one or two but they've been childhood friends I can't remove from my life because they add a lot of humor to it.
> 
> The NCAA has realized they need to change the old rules too. They are going to let each sport decide how to manage the situation.
> 
> I support people living their lives the way they want to.
> 
> You seem to be having a problem with understanding that two working minds can have differing positions, and that's very closed minded of you.
> 
> Everyday, I have to balance out my desires and needs vs society (other human beings in the world).  The problem with your position is, you're asking people to not balance any of society's needs with transgender needs.  You're asking society to just give in to transgender desires regardless of how it may affect others.  While I do support most of what my transgender fellow human beings want, I also support women competing at a high level and scientifically, they can't compete against biological male at the highest level.
> 
> I have read a lot of information and taken a lot of time to consider my position.  As a society we are pushing each other to create a solution that will work out, as the IOC and NCAA and currently figuring it out too and changing their rules constantly.
> 
> The restroom thing - most people are not concerned about transgenders, but they were concerned about the straight jerks, child molesters, or perverts, who would abuse the rule and go into the girl's restrooms.  Unisex bathrooms, family bathrooms and single stalls were a good solution.


The IOC, NCAA and I have all balanced out society's needs with transgender needs, unlike you.  We have decided that a swim meet in a pool is not important compared to the need to overcome the shitty way you and your friends have treated transgender women.  Again, "equality" is not a la carte.  I do like how you relabel "constant abuse of transgender women" as "giving in to transgender desires".  That's really high level transphobia.

Enjoy rec soccer.  I'd recommend swimming as an alternative, but it looks like the trans women beat you there also.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.
> 
> At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.
> 
> As you get closer to college sports, it gets different.  All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts.  It becomes a zero sum game.  If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.
> 
> And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters.  Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.


...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided. 

Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.

...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas.  Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.
> 
> If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction.  I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.


For the most part, the transgender people I know have opinions closer to Emma or Watfly.  They are aware of what treatments can and cannot do, and they are acutely aware of the difficulty of fitting in.  Browbeating their way into a women’s sporting event is the last thing they would do.  

The vitriol on the left in this comes from gay men who want to believe their own rhetoric, but know no more about transition than the average straight person.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided.
> 
> Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.
> 
> ...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.


I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.

But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid.  Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> The IOC, NCAA and I have all balanced out society's needs with transgender needs, unlike you.  We have decided that a swim meet in a pool is not important compared to the need to overcome the shitty way you and your friends have treated transgender women.  Again, "equality" is not a la carte.  I do like how you relabel "constant abuse of transgender women" as "giving in to transgender desires".  That's really high level transphobia.
> 
> Enjoy rec soccer.  I'd recommend swimming as an alternative, but it looks like the trans women beat you there also.


Constant abuse?  one instant in which I do think they need to compromise and work through is constant abuse to you?  

You underestimate the transgender population if you think asking them to work with others is considered abusing them.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas.  Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.
> 
> If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction.  I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.


...15 women qualify for the College Women's Swimming National Finals. By allowing a man to complete, Will Thomas prevented the #16 woman to compete in something she has worked and trained her whole life for...and since she is a senior, this was her last chance.

...your words and lies are clearly expected and pathetic towards women...but it is the lies and degrading of women by the NCAA that I find absolutely disgusting and worthy of public and direct backlash.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> Constant abuse?  one instant in which I do think they need to compromise and work through is constant abuse to you?
> 
> You underestimate the transgender population if you think asking them to work with others is considered abusing them.


I love how you substitute "do what I want" for "work with others".  Transgender men and women very much work with others, so much so that they've worked with the NCAA for over a decade and the IOC for two.  The only ones who refuse to work with others are those like you who want to ban them from women's sports.  

Enjoy losing.  You losing on transgender participation in women's sports, and your daughter losing to all those scary transgender opponents.  So scary.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.
> 
> But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid.  Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


...I have also coached rec sports and there was always a limit to the amount of players that could be accommodated on teams and the league as a whole...was this also the case with your coaching experience? 

Additionally, I've had my own kid miss a rec sports season because slots filled up before the sign up deadline.


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.
> 
> But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid.  Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


I'm sorry you're going to hell because you don't hate transgender people enough.  Carry on trying to have "equality" a la carte so you can keep transgender women away from what is important to you, while ignoring what your non lefty friends like met61 are doing to finish the job outside the pool or pitch.  Do you think your friends will stop after refusing to sell them products and services? Maybe spitting on them too?  Prevent them from getting married to someone of the same biological gender? Or go all the way and beat them to death?


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> I love how you substitute "do what I want" for "work with others".  Transgender men and women very much work with others, so much so that they've worked with the NCAA for over a decade and the IOC for two.  The only ones who refuse to work with others are those like you who want to ban them from women's sports.
> 
> Enjoy losing.  You losing on transgender participation in women's sports, and your daughter losing to all those scary transgender opponents.  So scary.


Thanks for translating my English to your English? I support your rigourous defending of transgender even if I disagree with this one instance.  I'm not sure you're helping the cause with your hatred and unwillingness to see things from other people's perspective.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's amazing what the human mind can rationalize if the desire is strong enough. Mid-terms are going to be even more interesting if this board is truly representative of our population and there really are that many people who buy into this gaslighting narrative and say it out loud. I can't wait to hear candidates define what a "woman" is. I'm thinking with the right definition, we may find they are over-represented in areas we thought that they were under-represented. We have so much to learn. Hahahaha!


This is and should be a non-issue. Only those conditioned to respond to the stimuli and those actually involved could give a rat’s ass.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You clearly care very much.  Why does it bother you so much to refer to a transgender woman as "she"?  Language and grammar is not "biology", and many languages don't even use different gender pronouns.  Man, it must drive you nuts when people identify their preferred gender pronouns on their email signature lines.
> 
> Can you explain again why "science' makes it impossible for a transgender woman to swim in a race against biological women?  I'm having a hard time believing that given that we have all seen it actually happen.  *That, of course, stands in contrast to an all powerful invisible man in the sky who told everyone to kill trans women up until he changed his mind.  Can you please explain the "science" behind that while you're at it.*


there you go again, zig, zagging and clowning.  I don't have an issue with referring to a transgender women as a she - you just want it to be so.  The word salad in bold above demonstrates how much of a clown you are.  You really do very little for the causes you carry in your brain, unable to effectively navigate the real world. 

By the way, science doesnt make it impossible for a transwoman to race against a biological women.  The science is clear on how unfair that race will always be.  If you fail to make that connection, then you have other issues that need to be addressed.  If she was a he post puberty, the advantage is always going to be with the she that was a he.  And if you find this offensive, then so be it.  Science, like nature, tends to reveal the truth.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> Thanks for translating my English to your English? I support your rigourous defending of transgender even if I disagree with this one instance.  I'm not sure you're helping the cause with your hatred and unwillingness to see things from other people's perspective.


I fully understand your perspective.  I have said many times I understand your perspective, but I believe the arguments against trans participation in women's sports is outweighed by the important reasons in support - just like the IOC, just like the NCAA, just like a lot of people.  The only ones who are unwilling to see things from the other people's perspective are people like you.  Other than watfly, none of the transphobes here will accept that any legitimate reason exists in support of trans participation in women's sports.  Watfly had a moment of honest conversation and, go figure, I treated him with dignity and respect.  But you and the others refuse to treat trans women with dignity and respect, so you get what you deserve.

If seeing things from other people's perspective is important, then great, explain what are the legitimate reasons why the NCAA and IOC allow trans participation in women's sports.  Let's see your ability to understand someone else's perspective.  I have no gripe with anyone who believes that those reasons are outweighed by legitimate countervailing reasons, but the problem is you won't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the reasons for allowing trans participation in women's sports. Because you and others won't, you get what you deserve.  

Remember, though, God is watching and will punish you if you say anything supportive of a transgender woman.  In fact, @dad4 is apparently going to hell for saying they should at least be allowed to play rec sports.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided.
> 
> Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.
> 
> ...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.


Seems both ends of the political spectrum want to dictate policy. On the far left we get the “everyone gets a trophy” nonsense and on the far right we get those that don’t fit the mold being beaten and tortured to death.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...I have also coached rec sports and there was always a limit to the amount of players that could be accommodated on teams and the league as a whole...was this also the case with your coaching experience?
> 
> Additionally, I've had my own kid miss a rec sports season because slots filled up before the sign up deadline.


Our biggest problem was coaches, not fields.  

More to the point, having one fewer boy and one more girl would not make any impact at all on overall field space.  The boys and the girls all got the same size practice field.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> there you go again, zig, zagging and clowning.  I don't have an issue with referring to a transgender women as a she - you just want it to be so.  The word salad in bold above demonstrates how much of a clown you are.  You really do very little for the causes you carry in your brain, unable to effectively navigate the real world.
> 
> By the way, science doesnt make it impossible for a transwoman to race against a biological women.  The science is clear on how unfair that race will always be.  If you fail to make that connection, then you have other issues that need to be addressed.  If she was a he post puberty, the advantage is always going to be with the she that was a he.  And if you find this offensive, then so be it.  Science, like nature, tends to reveal the truth.


So now you're admitting the dictionary isn't the sports rulebook?  Progress! 

I think what you're saying is that college sports is so sacred to you that even a modest biological advantage to a transgender woman doesn't outweigh the effort to overcome systemic discrimination and abuse in life suffered everywhere else?  You're saying "equality" should come a la carte and, because swimming in a pool gives transgender women too much of an advantage in life, it outweighs all the disadvantages they have everywhere else?  You're saying transgender women have it so great in life that it's unfair to give them even more advantages in a swim race?  That's your argument in a nutshell, right?  Or do you also believe it is a safety issue because she might use her physical advantages to maim or even kill one of her swim competitors?


----------



## GoldenGate

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems both ends of the political spectrum want to dictate policy. On the far left we get the “everyone gets a trophy” nonsense and on the far right we get those that don’t fit the mold being beaten and tortured to death.


Don't forget that the far left also occasionally causes property damage when the far right gets away with beating and torturing people to death.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Our biggest problem was coaches, not fields.
> 
> More to the point, having one fewer boy and one more girl would not make any impact at all on overall field space.  The boys and the girls all got the same size practice field.


...we both know you did not answer the question I asked...in fact, to steal a brilliant statement used in an above post..."Thanks for translating my English to your English?"

...although I would appreciate you answering the question I asked... I do understand how compromising the truth and enabling lies makes simple questions difficult.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...we both know you did not answer the question I asked...in fact, to steal a brilliant statement used in an above post..."Thanks for translating my English to your English?"
> 
> ...although I would appreciate you answering the question I asked... I do understand how compromising the truth and enabling lies makes simple questions difficult.


You asked whether we had to cut kids due to a lack of field space.

The answer is no.  We never had to cut a kid from rec due to lack of fields.  As I said, our problem was a lack of coaches, not fields.

What does this have to do with trans athletes?  If your rec league doesn't have enough field space, you have exactly the same problem no matter how you classify the one or two trans kids.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> So now you're admitting the dictionary isn't the sports rulebook?  Progress!
> 
> I think what you're saying is that college sports is so sacred to you that even a modest biological advantage to a transgender woman doesn't outweigh the effort to overcome systemic discrimination and abuse in life suffered everywhere else?  You're saying "equality" should come a la carte and, because swimming in a pool gives transgender women too much of an advantage in life, it outweighs all the disadvantages they have everywhere else?  You're saying transgender women have it so great in life that it's unfair to give them even more advantages in a swim race?  That's your argument in a nutshell, right?  Or do you also believe it is a safety issue because she might use her physical advantages to maim or even kill one of her swim competitors?


as my kids would say - wait, wut?  but to your point, she would use her physical advantage (gained through physiologically developing as a HE)  to unfairly win - so yes, you admit that I'm right, even if you use hyperbole to weakly make your point.  So if maim and kill mean crushing the field in an individual sport, then yes, you are spot on...so right, so clever, yet very clownish.  Thanks for making the point about the unfair advantage - which is the argument - not that people are transphobic...but you are clearly girl/women phobic, obvious by your repeated inclusion of daugthers within your insults.  

I'll stand by and wait for your limp insults.  I do admire your ability to maintain a  uniformly incoherent stream of thought.


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> I fully understand your perspective.  I have said many times I understand your perspective, but I believe the arguments against trans participation in women's sports is outweighed by the important reasons in support - just like the IOC, just like the NCAA, just like a lot of people.  The only ones who are unwilling to see things from the other people's perspective are people like you.  Other than watfly, none of the transphobes here will accept that any legitimate reason exists in support of trans participation in women's sports.  Watfly had a moment of honest conversation and, go figure, I treated him with dignity and respect.  But you and the others refuse to treat trans women with dignity and respect, so you get what you deserve.
> 
> If seeing things from other people's perspective is important, then great, explain what are the legitimate reasons why the NCAA and IOC allow trans participation in women's sports.  Let's see your ability to understand someone else's perspective.  I have no gripe with anyone who believes that those reasons are outweighed by legitimate countervailing reasons, but the problem is you won't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the reasons for allowing trans participation in women's sports. Because you and others won't, you get what you deserve.
> 
> Remember, though, God is watching and will punish you if you say anything supportive of a transgender woman.  In fact, @dad4 is apparently going to hell for saying they should at least be allowed to play rec sports.


I don't believe transgenders should be excluded from women's sports.  At any level, except the highest competitive level, transgenders should be included in women's sports.  Transgenders are not excluded from competing at the highest level, they just need to do it with their biological sex.  That's a balancing act.  

I haven't heard your argument about the important reasons why transgenders need to compete against biological females at the highest level yet.  I want to hear it because I can be convinced if I hear a logical reason that outweighs a girls right to compete.  I've thrown my reason out there.  Biologically, females can NOT compete against top Males physically, that's why we created a separate sports division for females and males.  You haven't been throwing out any argument as to why transgenders right to compete at a high level in the wrong biological sex outweighs a women's right to compete with her biological sex.


----------



## watfly

Emma said:


> I don't believe transgenders should be excluded from women's sports.  At any level, except the highest competitive level, transgenders should be included in women's sports.  Transgenders are not excluded from competing at the highest level, they just need to do it with their biological sex.  That's a balancing act.
> 
> I haven't heard your argument about the important reasons why transgenders need to compete against biological females at the highest level yet.  I want to hear it because I can be convinced if I hear a logical reason that outweighs a girls right to compete.  I've thrown my reason out there.  Biologically, females can NOT compete against top Males physically, that's why we created a separate sports division for females and males.  You haven't been throwing out any argument as to why transgenders right to compete at a high level in the wrong biological sex outweighs a women's right to compete with her biological sex.


Based on his comments, his reasons appear to be mostly entitlement and reparational, aka transgenders have been mistreated for years so they're entitled to compete at the highest level of women's sports.  It's just a silly race, so what if biological men have an advantage?  In his mind its payback for the mistreatment,.  Of course, he conveniently uses the silly little race rationalization only to support his position and can't recognize it also contradicts his opinion.  Self awareness is not his strong suit.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Since when does complying with the rules to participate constitute cheating?  Why are you even calling someone who is following the rules a cheater? Could it be because you're transphobic?  Again, because people like you can't treat transgender women with dignity and respect, you get no dignity and respect either.
> 
> So are you saying all co-ed sports must be illegal because men are men and women are women?  Or just the ones you care about because "competitive" sports, as you define them, are "different" because "biology" cares about the difference between NCAA and intramural sports?  Are you saying businesses like the IOC and NCAA shouldn't be allowed to set their own rules about who can participate?  And since when did all of you "principled" conservatives decide that businesses should be allowed to do whatever they like - unless it is something you don't like?  Is this all happening because you and your friends were never actually principled at all?


A. You have your head buried in the sand regarding the TRUTH.
or
B. You just enjoy hurling insults as you look beyond the TRUTH.

It's CHEATING pure and simple.

Face the facts.

Here's what would be fair to ALL.
For Thomas to compete with the men and 
rescind all of the awards and winnings achieved
while competing against the women.

*THAT WOULD BE FAIR !
*


----------



## thirteenknots

Studies of running, rowing, speed skating, and *swimming* races 
have shown that human males are on average *11 percent* faster 
than women.

The TRUTH.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> *You asked whether we had to cut kids due to a lack of field space.*
> 
> The answer is no.  We never had to cut a kid from rec due to lack of fields.  As I said, our problem was a lack of coaches, not fields.
> 
> What does this have to do with trans athletes?  If your rec league doesn't have enough field space, you have exactly the same problem no matter how you classify the one or two trans kids.


...again, we both know this is not what I asked...my question was clear and straightforward...and is posted above for you and all to see.

...failing to answer this for a second time, is actually an answer in itself...my mistake was thinking you were above this simple minded approach.

...I now suspect you will feign frustration with my pointing out your obvious dodging of the question...and provide another simpleton response...or ignore this post and not respond at all... either way, it says more about you and confirms my key points regarding the Truth.


----------



## met61

Emma said:


> I don't believe transgenders should be excluded from women's sports.  At any level, except the highest competitive level, transgenders should be included in women's sports.  Transgenders are not excluded from competing at the highest level, they just need to do it with their biological sex.  That's a balancing act.
> 
> I haven't heard your argument about the important reasons why transgenders need to compete against biological females at the highest level yet.  I want to hear it because I can be convinced if I hear a logical reason that outweighs a girls right to compete.  I've thrown my reason out there.  Biologically, females can NOT compete against top Males physically, that's why we created a separate sports division for females and males.  You haven't been throwing out any argument as to why transgenders right to compete at a high level in the wrong biological sex outweighs a women's right to compete with her biological sex.


...who determines what the highest competitive level is? And for girls competitive soccer...where do you recommend the line being drawn: ECNL, ECRL, GA, DPL, SOCAL DISCOVERY, FLIGHT 1, 2, 3..., SDDA, Presidio, Rec?

...why do many sports require a birth certificate?  If you're willing to compromise the Truth regarding sex on a birth certificate, are you willing to compromise the birth date on a birth certificate?

...Truth does not require a balancing act.


----------



## Keepermom2

"Meanwhile, Olympic gold medalist Caitlyn Jenner, when asked about the success of trans swimmer Lia Thomas, has spoken out against transgender athletes born biological males participating in women's sports."She was born a biological boy," Jenner pointed out. "She was raised as a biological boy. Her cardiovascular system is bigger, her respiratory system is bigger, her hands are bigger, she can swim faster. That’s a known.""

According to one person's definition I read earlier in this thread...Caitlyn Jenner is Transphobic.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> as my kids would say - wait, wut?  but to your point, she would use her physical advantage (gained through physiologically developing as a HE)  to unfairly win - so yes, you admit that I'm right, even if you use hyperbole to weakly make your point.  So if maim and kill mean crushing the field in an individual sport, then yes, you are spot on...so right, so clever, yet very clownish.  Thanks for making the point about the unfair advantage - which is the argument - not that people are transphobic...but you are clearly girl/women phobic, obvious by your repeated inclusion of daugthers within your insults.
> 
> I'll stand by and wait for your limp insults.  I do admire your ability to maintain a  uniformly incoherent stream of thought.


All caps with the transphobic gender pronoun usage.  You must be serious.


----------



## GoldenGate

Emma said:


> I don't believe transgenders should be excluded from women's sports.  At any level, except the highest competitive level, transgenders should be included in women's sports.  Transgenders are not excluded from competing at the highest level, they just need to do it with their biological sex.  That's a balancing act.
> 
> I haven't heard your argument about the important reasons why transgenders need to compete against biological females at the highest level yet.  I want to hear it because I can be convinced if I hear a logical reason that outweighs a girls right to compete.  I've thrown my reason out there.  Biologically, females can NOT compete against top Males physically, that's why we created a separate sports division for females and males.  You haven't been throwing out any argument as to why transgenders right to compete at a high level in the wrong biological sex outweighs a women's right to compete with her biological sex.


I've explained my reasoning many times, which is also available quite readily online from the NCAA and IOC.  You keep saying it is a "balancing act" but you want no balancing at all.  Rather, you want trans women categorically excluded from NCAA women's sports because you think "equality" is something that comes a la carte.  Well, the NCAA, IOC and I believe differently.  In fact, your buddy met61 and all your friends who can't accept that it is grammatically proper for someone to choose the gender pronoun of their choice drive that home pretty well.

"We" didn't create anything.  The NCAA and IOC both created sports "divisions" that allow participation by transgender athletes provided they meet certain eligibility requirements.  There is no "wrong" biological sex division of sports.  The NCAA decides who can participate, and that includes trans women provided they meet certain requirements.  If your daughter isn't good enough to participate with and against against trans women who meet the participation requirements, you should take them somewhere else.   I hear Iran doesn't like trans people either, but your kid might need to wear a hijab.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> Studies of running, rowing, speed skating, and *swimming* races
> have shown that human males are on average *11 percent* faster
> than women.
> 
> The TRUTH.


Good thing trans women can't participate in NCAA women's sports without hormone suppression.  So how close to 0% should we get to make up for all the harassment and discrimination they suffer in life at the hands of people like you? 

And btw, why are you so upset that today's English gender pronoun rules allow people to use their preferred gender pronoun, given how much you actually butcher English grammar every day?


----------



## Emma

met61 said:


> ...who determines what the highest competitive level is? And for girls competitive soccer...where do you recommend the line being drawn: ECNL, ECRL, GA, DPL, SOCAL DISCOVERY, FLIGHT 1, 2, 3..., SDDA, Presidio, Rec?
> 
> ...why do many sports require a birth certificate?  If you're willing to compromise the Truth regarding sex on a birth certificate, are you willing to compromise the birth date on a birth certificate?
> 
> ...Truth does not require a balancing act.


Pro Sports, National teams, College varsity, youth national team, etc.  The details, needs to be worked out on a local level.  

I understand what you are saying regarding the birth certificate/sex/age.  The birth certificate does not need defending, it's just a piece of paper we use for identification purposes.  Due to the high risk of suicide and emotional issues during adolescents, it's better for our society to allow trans kids to play sports with girls if it helps them overcome their emotional issues and suicidal thoughts. My thought is it doesn't hurt anyone, but it can help someone.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...15 women qualify for the College Women's Swimming National Finals. By allowing a man to complete, Will Thomas prevented the #16 woman to compete in something she has worked and trained her whole life for...and since she is a senior, this was her last chance.
> 
> ...your words and lies are clearly expected and pathetic towards women...but it is the lies and degrading of women by the NCAA that I find absolutely disgusting and worthy of public and direct backlash.


OMG, someone was deprived the opportunity to come in last?!?  Is this like that CT HS Karen who was also deprived the opportunity to come in last so she filed a lawsuit that she also lost? That is a lot of losing for one race.


----------



## crush




----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...I have also coached rec sports and there was always a limit to the amount of players that could be accommodated on teams and the league as a whole...was this also the case with your coaching experience?
> 
> Additionally, I've had my own kid miss a rec sports season because slots filled up before the sign up deadline.


So trans kids should not be allowed to participate in rec sports because you're such a shitty dad that you waited too long to sign your kids up?  So I take it you also believe trans kids should not be allowed to buy lipstick or dresses because stores might run out for the "real" girls?  Do you also think they shouldn't be able to buy anything from a religious freak whose snowflakey sensibilities are offended by their mere existence?


----------



## Emma

GoldenGate said:


> I've explained my reasoning many times, which is also available quite readily online from the NCAA and IOC.  You keep saying it is a "balancing act" but you want no balancing at all.  Rather, you want trans women categorically excluded from NCAA women's sports because you think "equality" is something that comes a la carte.  Well, the NCAA, IOC and I believe differently.  In fact, your buddy met61 and all your friends who can't accept that it is grammatically proper for someone to choose the gender pronoun of their choice drive that home pretty well.
> 
> "We" didn't create anything.  The NCAA and IOC both created sports "divisions" that allow participation by transgender athletes provided they meet certain eligibility requirements.  There is no "wrong" biological sex division of sports.  The NCAA decides who can participate, and that includes trans women provided they meet certain requirements.  If your daughter isn't good enough to participate with and against against trans women who meet the participation requirements, you should take them somewhere else.   I hear Iran doesn't like trans people either, but your kid might need to wear a hijab.


The "We" is "Our Society".  NCAA and IOC, they are acronyms for a subset of "We" that are empowered to make those decisions by the rest of society.  NCAA and IOC did do a balancing act when they made the first rules, then they realized it wasn't the right balanced and changed it, and they've changed it more than once.   They'll continue to make changes as more information regarding the transgender athletic performances and impact on women sports is played out.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...again, we both know this is not what I asked...my question was clear and straightforward...and is posted above for you and all to see.
> 
> ...failing to answer this for a second time, is actually an answer in itself...my mistake was thinking you were above this simple minded approach.
> 
> ...I now suspect you will feign frustration with my pointing out your obvious dodging of the question...and provide another simpleton response...or ignore this post and not respond at all... either way, it says more about you and confirms my key points regarding the Truth.


I did my best to answer what I thought was your question.  Instead of trying to make yourself more clear, you choose to become abusive, repeatedly.

GFY.


----------



## GoldenGate

Keepermom2 said:


> "Meanwhile, Olympic gold medalist Caitlyn Jenner, when asked about the success of trans swimmer Lia Thomas, has spoken out against transgender athletes born biological males participating in women's sports."She was born a biological boy," Jenner pointed out. "She was raised as a biological boy. Her cardiovascular system is bigger, her respiratory system is bigger, her hands are bigger, she can swim faster. That’s a known.""
> 
> According to one person's definition I read earlier in this thread...Caitlyn Jenner is Transphobic.


More b.s. Caitlyn Jenner here is just stating an opinion about how he feels the cons outweigh the pros.  I don't see her calling Lia Thomas "he".  I don't see her making ridiculous arguments that a 19th century dictionary is the sports rule book.  I don't see her making another ridiculous argument that it is unsafe for trans women to participate in women's sports.  I don't see her claiming anything homophobic.  I just disagree with her assessment of the pros and cons.  What is transphobic, however, is someone like you trying to use Caitlyn Jenner as a cover for your transphobia.  Your daughter isn't even going to play college soccer, right?  If so, you don't have anything to worry about unless you're in that crowd that also wants them out of rec sports like intramurals.


----------



## crush

Can we all please stay on topic per the thread?  This is 100% about the Jab and all of our futures together as one.  Dr. F is back in the news.

*Fauci: Americans should be prepared for new COVID-19 restrictions*
*BA.2 omicron sub-variant currently accounts for more than half of US cases*

"I don't want to use the word ‘lockdowns.’ That has a charged element to it ((you think?)). But, I believe that we must keep our eye on the pattern of what we're seeing with infections," he said, noting that the U.S. is currently moving toward normalcy.  ((Except for my nephew and 5 other humans I know who have died and 5 who got clots in their blood)).

"Having said that, we need to be prepared for the possibility ((Don't get comfortable folks)) that we would have another variant that would come along," Fauci noted. "And then, if things change and we do get a variant that does give us an uptick in cases and hospitalization, we should be prepared and flexible enough to pivot toward going back – at least temporarily – to a more rigid type of restrictions, such as requiring masks indoor." ((or get fired for saying no to the jab))


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> Based on his comments, his reasons appear to be mostly entitlement and reparational, aka transgenders have been mistreated for years so they're entitled to compete at the highest level of women's sports.  It's just a silly race, so what if biological men have an advantage?  In his mind its payback for the mistreatment,.  Of course, he conveniently uses the silly little race rationalization only to support his position and can't recognize it also contradicts his opinion.  Self awareness is not his strong suit.


I see, so Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is "reparations"?  The Americans with Disabilities Act is also "reparations"?  When a college determines that the substantial hardships that a minority has overcome in life to succeed makes her a more qualified applicant than a privileged Karen, that is also reparations?  Very clever how you have tried to relabel efforts to ensure equality as "reparations".


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...who determines what the highest competitive level is? And for girls competitive soccer...where do you recommend the line being drawn: ECNL, ECRL, GA, DPL, SOCAL DISCOVERY, FLIGHT 1, 2, 3..., SDDA, Presidio, Rec?
> 
> ...why do many sports require a birth certificate?  If you're willing to compromise the Truth regarding sex on a birth certificate, are you willing to compromise the birth date on a birth certificate?
> 
> ...Truth does not require a balancing act.


So BYU should be barred from college sports because so many of their student athletes finish college 6-7 years older than a typical college freshman?  It's so unfair that they have this competitive advantage, right?


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> All caps with the transphobic gender pronoun usage.  You must be serious.


as my hubby would say, your game is weak.


----------



## met61

Keepermom2 said:


> "Meanwhile, Olympic gold medalist Caitlyn Jenner, when asked about the success of trans swimmer Lia Thomas, has spoken out against transgender athletes born biological males participating in women's sports."She was born a biological boy," Jenner pointed out. "She was raised as a biological boy. Her cardiovascular system is bigger, her respiratory system is bigger, her hands are bigger, she can swim faster. That’s a known.""
> 
> *According to one person's definition I read earlier in this thread...Caitlyn Jenner is Transphobic.*


...compromising the Truth and enabling lies results in this type of irony and ridiculous contradictions.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> More b.s. Caitlyn Jenner here is just stating an opinion about how *he* feels the cons outweigh the pros.  I don't see her calling Lia Thomas "he".  I don't see her making ridiculous arguments that a 19th century dictionary is the sports rule book.  I don't see her making another ridiculous argument that it is unsafe for trans women to participate in women's sports.  I don't see her claiming anything homophobic.  I just disagree with her assessment of the pros and cons.  What is transphobic, however, is someone like you trying to use Caitlyn Jenner as a cover for your transphobia.  Your daughter isn't even going to play college soccer, right?  If so, you don't have anything to worry about unless you're in that crowd that also wants them out of rec sports like intramurals.


clowning again...but I do like your use of the word HE.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> as my hubby would say, your game is weak.


IDK.  I feel like "weak" is being unsuccessfully opposed to what the NCAA has done for more than a decade, and the IOC for two.  Or is "losing" a more appropriate word?


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> clowning again...but I do like your use of the word HE.


Oops.  We all make mistakes, and I made one.


----------



## met61

[


GoldenGate said:


> I've explained my reasoning many times, which is also available quite readily online from the NCAA and IOC.  You keep saying it is a "balancing act" but you want no balancing at all.  Rather, you want trans women categorically excluded from NCAA women's sports because you think "equality" is something that comes a la carte.  Well, the NCAA, IOC and I believe differently.  In fact, your buddy met61 and all your friends who can't accept that it is grammatically proper for someone to choose the gender pronoun of their choice drive that home pretty well.
> 
> "We" didn't create anything.  The NCAA and IOC both created sports "divisions" that allow participation by transgender athletes provided they meet certain eligibility requirements.  There is no "wrong" biological sex division of sports.  The NCAA decides who can participate, and that includes trans women provided they meet certain requirements.  If your daughter isn't good enough to participate with and against against trans women who meet the participation requirements, you should take them somewhere else.   I hear Iran doesn't like trans people either, but your kid might need to wear a hijab.


...to be grammatically proper, I don't accept lies as Truth.

...notice my word count versus the word count your lie requires.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Oops.  We all make mistakes, and I made one.


We just don’t “ALL” admit to them.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I did my best to answer what I thought was your question.  Instead of trying to make yourself more clear, you choose to become abusive, repeatedly.
> 
> GFY.


...unfortunately, there it is, as predicted...the simpleton response. Expected from @GoldenGate ...surprising from you.

... It goes to show how compromising the truth and living lies make seemingly intelligent and rational people...act like @GoldenGate and @Hüsker Dü 

...the power of Truth, and lack thereof, is amazing.


----------



## met61

what-happened said:


> clowning again...but I do like your use of the word HE.


... It's difficult keeping the lies straight (pun intended).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ... It's difficult keeping the lies straight (pun intended).


What lies?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> IDK.  I feel like "weak" is being unsuccessfully opposed to what the NCAA has done for more than a decade, and the IOC for two.  Or is "losing" a more appropriate word?


Those same rules that each governing body are and will continue to modify.

Stay Thirsty my friend!


----------



## Emma

Transgender cyclist Bridges set to race in women's event
					

Transgender athlete Emily Bridges may compete against Laura Kenny at Saturday's National Omnium Championships in her first women's event.




					www.bbc.com
				




For such a small population, transgender athletes are already having a huge impact on women's sports.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.
> 
> At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.
> 
> As you get closer to college sports, it gets different.  All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts.  It becomes a zero sum game.  If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.
> 
> And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters.  Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.


I take it there must be some sort of dust up on the TV about pronoun politics, push button something or other.  Beyond X's and Y's there is an interesting discussion to be had about where genetics is going in the next ten years or so with respect to teasing out the "nature" part of the variance in physical traits that impact sport.  And it could well have an impact on ideas of fairness beyond whatever people are going off on right now.  But doesn't look like its possible to go there at the moment without getting wrapped up in somebody else's political fever dreams.  Next week it will be on to something else so perhaps some other time.

Anyway...on the guys college recruitment side, what our family's is seeing is that big state school D1s and even mid major D1s/top D2s tap heavily into the overseas U23s that aren't getting signed to pro contracts out of academies.  And transfers from two year schools here in the US. For our local SoCal crop of 17 going on 18 yr olds (and there are some amazing players out there), hitting that fully developed physical peak on the early side is an advantage.  Like if your goal is to play for one of the UCs-that's really competitive. I've heard fairness issues raised along the lines of "hosting a USL team on a college campus" that sort of thing.  But that's just how it is.  

If college soccer is a "must" and a kid is a good player and willing to go to one of the smaller schools around the country with D3, NAIA, etc, you can have a really good shot at playing college ball.  There are sites where you can set up profiles and they will even come looking for you. Some of them have pretty good teams. Or go the JuCo route and see how things pan out two years down the road. There are options.  Given who you are as a player and who you are as a student, what are your realistic options, what compromises are you willing to make, what works best for you? At least that's how we've tried to approach it.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I take it there must be some sort of dust up on the TV about pronoun politics, push button something or other.  Beyond X's and Y's there is an interesting discussion to be had about where genetics is going in the next ten years or so with respect to teasing out the "nature" part of the variance in physical traits that impact sport.  And it could well have an impact on ideas of fairness beyond whatever people are going off on right now.  But doesn't look like its possible to go there at the moment without getting wrapped up in somebody else's political fever dreams.  Next week it will be on to something else so perhaps some other time.
> 
> Anyway...on the guys college recruitment side, what our family's is seeing is that big state school D1s and even mid major D1s/top D2s tap heavily into the overseas U23s that aren't getting signed to pro contracts out of academies.  And transfers from two year schools here in the US. For our local SoCal crop of 17 going on 18 yr olds (and there are some amazing players out there), hitting that fully developed physical peak on the early side is an advantage.  Like if your goal is to play for one of the UCs-that's really competitive. I've heard fairness issues raised along the lines of "hosting a USL team on a college campus" that sort of thing.  But that's just how it is.
> 
> If college soccer is a "must" and a kid is a good player and willing to go to one of the smaller schools around the country with D3, NAIA, etc, you can have a really good shot at playing college ball.  There are sites where you can set up profiles and they will even come looking for you. Some of them have pretty good teams. Or go the JuCo route and see how things pan out two years down the road. There are options.  Given who you are as a player and who you are as a student, what are your realistic options, what compromises are you willing to make, what works best for you? At least that's how we've tried to approach it.


Not sure why so many people chase the scholarship.  Even a full ride scholarship is essentially a part time job.  Work a thousand hours per year to keep your spot, receive a scholarship worth 35K.  35 bucks an hour. 

Anyone who is in this for the scholarship is crazy.  They are spending 5K per year on a lottery ticket whose max payout is a 4 year part time job.

You’re better off if you play for fun and save for college.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Not sure why so many people chase the scholarship.  Even a full ride scholarship is essentially a part time job.  Work a thousand hours per year to keep your spot, receive a scholarship worth 35K.  35 bucks an hour.
> 
> Anyone who is in this for the scholarship is crazy.  They are spending 5K per year on a lottery ticket whose max payout is a 4 year part time job.
> 
> You’re better off if you play for fun and save for college.


Yeah, on the women's side there is a lot more soccer scholarship $, lots more than for guys' soccer.  It changes the dynamic quite a bit; much of this website is largely a group meditation on that dynamic I think. But on the guy's side nobody we know, not on my son's team or families we've met along the way, is shooting for soccer scholarship $ per se.  Its just not a factor. It's can I keep playing or am I done.


----------



## MicPaPa

It's just a few boys playing on a girls team, why does it matter?

This is why.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508937431520890888


----------



## crush

NBA Superstar Kyrie Irving On Remaining Unvaccinated: “Nobody Is Going To Enslave Me”
					

Support Honest Independent Media: https://EarthNewspaper.com/Donate EarthNewspaper Daily Newsletter: https://EarthNewspaper.com/Subscribe 35 Articles And Videos Published Daily: https://EarthNewspaper.com 24/7 News March: https://EarthNewspaper.c…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Not sure why so many people chase the scholarship.  Even a full ride scholarship is essentially a part time job.  Work a thousand hours per year to keep your spot, receive a scholarship worth 35K.  35 bucks an hour.
> 
> Anyone who is in this for the scholarship is crazy.  They are spending 5K per year on a lottery ticket whose max payout is a 4 year part time job.
> 
> You’re better off if you play for fun and save for college.


Each situation is different and some kids are really passionate about playing soccer in college (sometimes its just the parents.) But I agree that some parents put far too much emphasis on getting scholarships to pay for college instead of just saving.  My daughter is a Senior and I'm amazed how few parents have saved for college.  Just a few bucks a month in a 529 from the time they're born goes a long way to paying for or at least helping with the college costs.  To me a scholarship is awesome, but should just be considered a bonus.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> It's just a few boys playing on a girls team, why does it matter?
> 
> This is why.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508937431520890888


Wow, gosh, I never considered that transgender participation in women's sports might cause Disney staff to start saying "Hello friends" instead of "Hello boys and girls".  This is just a slippery slope to autocratic state governments enacting laws telling people what they can and can't say about gender and sex, right?


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, gosh, I never considered that transgender participation in women's sports might cause Disney staff to start saying "Hello friends" instead of "Hello boys and girls".  This is just a slippery slope to autocratic state governments enacting laws telling people what they can and can't say about gender and sex, right?


You're deflecting.

The thread is about deadly vaccines.

You hijacked it for your personal " feelings "
regarding men in women's sports, ( swimming )
is the subject here.

It's called cheating due to an UNFAIR physical advantage.

You have some personal agenda that is driving your remarks.
You display hostility with your posts due to nonagreement with
your personal agenda.

The facts are:

It's cheating and displaces biological women from attaining their
desired goals.

Now about this BA.2 .......more scare tactics due to Democrats falling
like an anchor in the polls.

They are facing a political slaughter in the midterms if the pattern
holds.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> You're deflecting.
> 
> The thread is about deadly vaccines.
> 
> You hijacked it for your personal " feelings "
> regarding men in women's sports, ( swimming )
> is the subject here.
> 
> It's called cheating due to an UNFAIR physical advantage.
> 
> You have some personal agenda that is driving your remarks.
> You display hostility with your posts due to nonagreement with
> your personal agenda.
> 
> The facts are:
> 
> It's cheating and displaces biological women from attaining their
> desired goals.
> 
> Now about this BA.2 .......more scare tactics due to Democrats falling
> like an anchor in the polls.
> 
> They are facing a political slaughter in the midterms if the pattern
> holds.


Uh, you and Desert Hound hijacked this thread with your transphobic personal "feelings" and your agenda (See posts 13,842 and 13,843).  Is your snowflake arse bent because you aren't getting what you want?  Is your daughter barely hanging on in competitive sports as it is, and a trans girl or two will cause her to lose her spot at the far end of the bench? Is that why you're living in fear?

BTW, hopefully you'll boycott Disney.  The parks are way too busy right now, and celebrating Pride month and firing Gina Carano only increased business.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> Now about this BA.2 .......more scare tactics due to Democrats falling
> like an anchor in the polls.
> 
> They are facing a political slaughter in the midterms if the pattern
> holds.


Keep up the gerrymandering and voter suppression, because those are the only things keeping the government from forcing everyone to become gay or trans. And if that doesn't work either, strap on your viking hat again.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, you and Desert Hound hijacked this thread with your transphobic personal "feelings" and your agenda (See posts 13,842 and 13,843).  Is your snowflake arse bent because you aren't getting what you want?  Is your daughter barely hanging on in competitive sports as it is, and a trans girl or two will cause her to lose her spot at the far end of the bench? Is that why you're living in fear?
> 
> BTW, hopefully you'll boycott Disney.  The parks are way too busy right now, and celebrating Pride month and firing Gina Carano only increased business.


Man o man...that is just plain silly talk.

The fact is it's cheating.
Has nothing to do with any " Surgical " operations.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Keep up the gerrymandering and voter suppression, because those are the only things keeping the government from forcing everyone to become gay or trans. And if that doesn't work either, strap on your viking hat again.


Way out in left field. 

Fact:
Democrats lose when votes are counted properly.


----------



## met61

BIGD said:


> Apologize if this has already been shared.  It’s worth the read.  You can read the Governors full letter here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/read-utah-governors-letter-on-transgender-athlete-ban-veto.html
> 
> 
> 
> *GOP Utah governor vetoes transgender athlete bill, citing high suicide rates: ‘I want them to live’*
> 
> Utah Gov. Spencer Cox became the second Republican governor in the past week to veto a bill that would have barred transgender athletes from competing in girls’ sports, writing an impassioned letter to state GOP leaders on Tuesday explaining his decision.
> Get the full experience.Choose your plan
> Cox cited “fundamental flaws” in the legislation, known as H.B. 11. But chief among the governor’s concerns were the mental health impacts such a bill could have on transgender youths in the state, he wrote.
> Cox’s decision to veto the bill highlights divisions within the Republican Party on the efficacy and morality of bills restricting the lives of young trans people. GOP leaders in Utah said they plan to override Cox’s veto, which would require approval from two-thirds of the state’s lawmakers.
> Indiana’s GOP governor vetoes bill banning transgender girls from female sports in schools, citing ‘unanswered questions’
> In Cox’s letter, which was also posted on Twitter, the governor cited several reasons he was going against H.B. 11. He raised concerns about substantial last-minute changes to the bill’s content; the potential economic and legal backlash; and a “broad misunderstanding” around the participation of transgender youth in sports.


*^* this is leadership compromising the Truth and enabling lies.



...and this is Leadership grounded in Truth.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509249151460122626


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> *^* this is leadership compromising the Truth and enabling lies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and this is Leadership grounded in Truth.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509249151460122626


Transgender men and women don't have high suicide rates?  Transgender men and women aren't routinely harassed and discriminated against?


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, you and Desert Hound hijacked this thread with your transphobic personal "feelings" and your agenda (See posts 13,842 and 13,843).  Is your snowflake arse bent because you aren't getting what you want?  Is your daughter barely hanging on in competitive sports as it is, and a trans girl or two will cause her to lose her spot at the far end of the bench? Is that why you're living in fear?
> 
> BTW, hopefully you'll boycott Disney.  The parks are way too busy right now, and celebrating Pride month and firing Gina Carano only increased business.


Imagine living a cowardly existence consisting of keyboard courage and demented to the point of tracking soccer forum posts by their #.

At least this female 4th year medical student has the courage to act on her trans agenda nonsense to someone's face.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508919774046134274


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Imagine living a cowardly existence consisting of keyboard courage and demented to the point of tracking soccer forum posts by their #.
> 
> At least this female 4th year medical student has the courage to act on her trans agenda nonsense to someone's face.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508919774046134274


So you act on your transphobic agenda how? You beat trans women to death?  Or just harass them to their face?


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> So you act on your transphobic agenda how? You beat trans women to death?  Or just harass them to their face?


FACT CHECK: Unknown - Makes no sense.


----------



## Desert Hound

MicPaPa said:


> FACT CHECK: Unknown - Makes no sense.


Outside of calling everyone names....

He cannot rationally explain why he thinks it is OK for men to play in women's sports.


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> Outside of calling everyone names....
> 
> He cannot rationally explain why he thinks it is OK for men to play in women's sports.


FACT CHECK: True


----------



## whatithink

Emma said:


> Transgender cyclist Bridges set to race in women's event
> 
> 
> Transgender athlete Emily Bridges may compete against Laura Kenny at Saturday's National Omnium Championships in her first women's event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For such a small population, transgender athletes are already having a huge impact on women's sports.


Not now apparently,

Trans cyclist Emily Bridges banned from racing at British meeting after UCI ruling | Cycling | The Guardian


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> So you act on your transphobic agenda how? You beat trans women to death?  Or just harass them to their face?


He's one of those radicals who believe that XY transgender athletes have exactly the same rights as XY cisgender athletes.  

It is apparently an extreme position these days.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Wow, gosh, I never considered that transgender participation in women's sports might cause Disney staff to start saying "Hello friends" instead of "Hello boys and girls".  This is just a slippery slope to autocratic state governments enacting laws telling people what they can and can't say about gender and sex, right?


That is absolutely hilarious! Pure comedy gold! You really can’t make shit up like that! Disney? Really?


----------



## Emma

whatithink said:


> Not now apparently,
> 
> Trans cyclist Emily Bridges banned from racing at British meeting after UCI ruling | Cycling | The Guardian


Thanks for the updated version.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Transgender men and women don't have high suicide rates?
> Transgender men and women aren't routinely harassed and discriminated against?


You know the answer to the two questions above.

Just accept the fact that it is cheating and stop 
posting traps when you know the answer.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Natural Immunity is real you guys and I have IT and I am so stoked   I am in the best health in my life ((knock on wood)) and I am ready to battle the great Omicron BA.2.   Dr. Fraud is going to get in big trouble by the way.  The Lap Top from Hell is real too you guys.


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> You know the answer to the two questions above.
> 
> Just accept the fact that it is cheating and stop
> posting traps when you know the answer.


You're the one who told us the Governor of Utah was lying about his reasons for vetoing the transphobic law.  So was he lying when he said they have much higher suicide rates and are subject to continued harassment and discrimination? How is it cheating to follow the rules anyway?

Don't worry, trans women aren't the reason your daughter sits on the bench.  Maybe Bob Jones U will save her a seat to warm since neither of you care for black people either.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Don't worry, trans women aren't the reason your daughter sits on the bench.  Maybe Bob Jones U will save her a seat to warm since neither of you care for black people either.


Keep the kids out of it you twat!


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Keep the kids out of it you twat!


He isn't too bright. 

He somehow thinks it is bigoted to tell men that they should not be allowed to play women's sports. 

His stance is anti woman. He wants to discriminate against women by allowing men to play in their sports. He is a misogynist.


----------



## crush

Truth Bomb!!!


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> You're the one who told us the Governor of Utah was lying about his reasons for vetoing the transphobic law.  So was he lying when he said they have much higher suicide rates and are subject to continued harassment and discrimination? How is it cheating to follow the rules anyway?
> 
> Don't worry, trans women aren't the reason your daughter sits on the bench.  Maybe Bob Jones U will save her a seat to warm since neither of you care for black people either.


Displaying your insanity on the same page.

Hey goofy, I didn't post the Utah Gov post.

But he's taken the proper stance.

Now it's your turn to be Honest, take a stance and stop the cheating.

Step up.


----------



## crush

*COVID tests, vaccines help Walgreens beat expectations on earnings!  Yay team!!!  Blood thinner is also a big stock buy.  What a wonderful world!!!*


----------



## NorCalDad

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Keep the kids out of it you twat!


You're defending a person with the account name "thirteenknots" -- Obviously a damsel in distress.  Who's the twat now?


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> You're defending a person with the account name "thirteenknots" -- Obviously a damsel in distress.  Who's the twat now?


Nothing to do with 13knots.

GG/EOTL has a habit of insulting people's kids whenever someone disagrees with him.

This is true regardless of with whom he is arguing.  If you disagree with GG/EOTL, he insults your kid and calls you racist.

It is rude and adds nothing to the discussion.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

NorCalDad said:


> You're defending a person with the account name "thirteenknots" -- Obviously a damsel in distress.  Who's the twat now?


No…I’m defending the kids being insulted on this thread. If you have a problem with defending the kids maybe tear isn’t the right word for someone encouraging putting down peoples kids.  Is that the kind of Dad you are?  Cause that’s not what I was told about you but I guess eventually the tiger shows his stripes.   

KEEP THE KIDS OUT OF IT!!!


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> Nothing to do with 13knots.
> 
> GG/EOTL has a habit of insulting people's kids whenever someone disagrees with him.
> 
> This is true regardless of with whom he is arguing.  If you disagree with GG/EOTL, he insults your kid and calls you racist.
> 
> It is rude and adds nothing to the discussion.


Frankly anyone with the account name "thirteenknots" doesn't deserve much respect...of course, unless, they are just a "knot aficionado", which based on this persons posts in the past I highly doubt.


----------



## met61

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No…I’m defending the kids being insulted on this thread. If you have a problem with defending the kids maybe tear isn’t the right word for someone encouraging putting down peoples kids.  Is that the kind of Dad you are?  Cause that’s not what I was told about you but I guess eventually the tiger shows his stripes.
> 
> KEEP THE KIDS OUT OF IT!!!


...you have the correct read of him.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...you have the correct read of him.


...maybe you like knots too.  You and @thirteenknots should form a knot club


----------



## crush

I LIKED HIM BETTER BEFORE HE SOLD HIS SOUL!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## crush




----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> ...maybe you like knots too.  You and @thirteenknots should form a knot club


...not sure what this has to do with someone off topic...like your sidekick @GoldenGate , the drivel rarely makes sense...but, since you bring up clubs, maybe you and your sidekick can form the keyboard cowards clown show club...just a thought.


----------



## GoldenGate

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Keep the kids out of it you twat!


Lia Thomas is someone's kid.  It's ok to verbally abuse her but not the kids of those who do?  Also keep in mind that I'm not attacking any kid.  Unlike with his personal attacks on an actual person, I don't even know who his kid is.  What I am doing is sarcastically mocking his and his friends' claims that trans women are taking spots away from others, including on rec teams, which is clearly a fear of his given prior posts.  I know you want to turn this into something it isn't by trying to paint me as being mean to kids.  Don't worry, I would give his kid a fair analysis of her ability if he wants it.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> You're defending a person with the account name "thirteenknots" -- Obviously a damsel in distress.  Who's the twat now?


That's a convenient leap in logic.  What's up?  You used to have good faith takes, but now you've resigned yourself to drive-by insults?

If you have problem with 13nots on-line handle you should take that up directly with him, otherwise it just looks like you're being passive-aggressive.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...not sure what this has to do with someone off topic...like your sidekick @GoldenGate , the drivel rarely makes sense...but, since you bring up clubs, maybe you and your sidekick can form the keyboard cowards clown show club...just a thought.


...as he types this on his keyboard....perhaps you can be our first member?


----------



## GoldenGate

watfly said:


> That's a convenient leap in logic.  What's up?  You used to have good faith takes, but now you've resigned yourself to drive-by insults?
> 
> If you have problem with 13nots on-line handle you should take that up directly with him, otherwise it just looks like you're being passive-aggressive.


That's one way to defend racism.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No…I’m defending the kids being insulted on this thread. If you have a problem with defending the kids maybe tear isn’t the right word for someone encouraging putting down peoples kids.  Is that the kind of Dad you are?  Cause that’s not what I was told about you but I guess eventually the tiger shows his stripes.
> 
> KEEP THE KIDS OUT OF IT!!!


I think we've seen the complete lack of respect from the far left towards both women and children come to a head in the last couple of years.


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> That's one way to defend racism.


There's the racism accusation, right on schedule.

You forgot to insult his daughter.  Is something wrong?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> That's a convenient leap in logic.  What's up?  You used to have good faith takes, but now you've resigned yourself to drive-by insults?
> 
> If you have problem with 13nots on-line handle you should take that up directly with him, otherwise it just looks like you're being passive-aggressive.


How am I being passive aggressive?  I'm clearly stating his handle, combined with his prior posts, lead me to....oh I don't know...what would occam's razor say?  Of course, I will be open minded here -- do tell @thirteenknots what is the meaning behind your handle?

It was clear as day that GG wasn't attacking any specific kid -- heck does @thirteenknots even have kids?  Yet, we're ok with his handle.....It's like if Hitler was on here and someone said "Hey keep Hitler's kids out of this...I mean if he even has kids...because well...I don't even know if he does...but whatever you're doing isn't nice to Hitler"

Of course....I could be wrong....maybe he is just a big fan of knots and especially ones of the noose variety.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> How am I being passive aggressive?  I'm clearly stating his handle, combined with his prior posts, lead me to....oh I don't know...what would occam's razor say?  Of course, I will be open minded here -- do tell @thirteenknots what is the meaning behind your handle?
> 
> It was clear as day that GG wasn't attacking any specific kid -- heck does @thirteenknots even have kids?  Yet, we're ok with his handle.....It's like if Hitler was on here and someone said "Hey keep Hitler's kids out of this...I mean if he even has kids...because well...I don't even know if he does...but whatever you're doing isn't nice to Hitler"
> 
> Of course....I could be wrong....maybe he is just a big fan of knots and especially ones of the noose variety.


When you have nothing else pull the the Nazi analogy.   It's sad that for many on the left the children of people they don't like are fair game for attacks (ie Barron).  Meanwhile you defend GG's comments and I've never defended 13nots (not that you're accusing me of that, just saying).


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Lia Thomas is someone's kid.  It's ok to verbally abuse her but not the kids of those who do?  Also keep in mind that I'm not attacking any kid.  Unlike with his personal attacks on an actual person, I don't even know who his kid is.  What I am doing is sarcastically mocking his and his friends' claims that trans women are taking spots away from others, including on rec teams, which is clearly a fear of his given prior posts.  I know you want to turn this into something it isn't by trying to paint me as being mean to kids.  Don't worry, I would give his kid a fair analysis of her ability if he wants it.


No Twatt waffle, Lia is an adult.

Stay Thursday little man


----------



## thirteenknots

NorCalDad said:


> ...maybe you like knots too.  You and @thirteenknots should form a knot club





GoldenGate said:


> That's one way to defend racism.





NorCalDad said:


> How am I being passive aggressive?  I'm clearly stating his handle, combined with his prior posts, lead me to....oh I don't know...what would occam's razor say?  Of course, I will be open minded here -- do tell @thirteenknots what is the meaning behind your handle?
> 
> It was clear as day that GG wasn't attacking any specific kid -- heck does @thirteenknots even have kids?  Yet, we're ok with his handle.....It's like if Hitler was on here and someone said "Hey keep Hitler's kids out of this...I mean if he even has kids...because well...I don't even know if he does...but whatever you're doing isn't nice to Hitler"
> 
> Of course....I could be wrong....maybe he is just a big fan of knots and especially ones of the noose variety.


To NorCalDad:
The handle is a medieval measurement instrument, look it up.
I've explained it many times. Exactly why I chose it, easy for the
uneducated to typecast based on lack of knowledge.

To Goldengate:
Now I would really like to know how you " squeezed " racism out of
blatant Cheating, do tell.

To NorCalDad:
Phuleeeezzzz.......Now it's Hitler?
And my offspring count is none of your business.


If either of you have been vaccinated, go get your heart
checked on a regular basis. It's paramount you stay ahead of the
side affects.


----------



## thirteenknots

watfly said:


> When you have nothing else pull the the Nazi analogy.   It's sad that for many on the left the children of people they don't like are fair game for attacks (ie Barron).  Meanwhile you defend GG's comments and I've never defended 13nots (not that you're accusing me of that, just saying).



I quite capable of a robust defense.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> When you have nothing else pull the the Nazi analogy.   It's sad that for many on the left the children of people they don't like are fair game for attacks (ie Barron).  Meanwhile you defend GG's comments and I've never defended 13nots (not that you're accusing me of that, just saying).


Why do you think I'm making some kind of huge leap here. You do know there was a white supremacy band called Thirteen Knots, right? 

If you're implying I don't like white supremacy...you are correct. 

Somehow, though, you've turned this into "the left" doing something wrong.  Now that's one big leap.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> ...as he types this on his keyboard....perhaps you can be our first member?


...no thanks, a third won't work when shaving his back and spooning your sidekick.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> Why do you think I'm making some kind of huge leap here. You do know there was a white supremacy band called Thirteen Knots, right?
> 
> If you're implying I don't like white supremacy...you are correct.
> 
> Somehow, though, you've turned this into "the left" doing something wrong.  Now that's one big leap.


...maybe it's the same tired leftist drivel that gives it away.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...no thanks, a third won't work when shaving his back and spooning your sidekick.


...that's an oddly specific detail.  Why would one need to shave a back in order to spoon?  But love seeing you expose more of your phobias.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> When you have nothing else pull the the Nazi analogy.   It's sad that for many on the left the children of people they don't like are fair game for attacks (ie Barron).  Meanwhile you defend GG's comments and I've never defended 13nots (not that you're accusing me of that, just saying).


To be clear,  there are absolutely racists, homophobes, and transphobes on these message boards.  You don't have to look too hard to find them.  I don't particularly care for how GG clumps people together when you disagree even slightly.  That said,  I can put that aside when he obliterates some of these arseholes with his words like no one else.  You have to admit he's pretty damn good at it.  

None of that is pointed at you,@dad4, @Grace T., etc.....I enjoy convos with all you folks.   I just can't handle when these yahoos aren't called out for their BS.


----------



## Brav520

“This Shouldn’t Happen”: Inside the Virus-Hunting Nonprofit at the Center of the Lab-Leak Controversy
					

Chasing scientific renown, grant dollars, and approval from Dr. Anthony Fauci, Peter Daszak transformed the environmental nonprofit EcoHealth Alliance into a government-funded sponsor of risky, cutting-edge virus research in both the U.S. and Wuhan, China. Drawing on more than 100,000 leaked...




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> To be clear,  there are absolutely racists, homophobes, and transphobes on these message boards.  You don't have to look too hard to find them.  I don't particularly care for how GG clumps people together when you disagree even slightly.  That said,  I can put that aside when he obliterates some of these arseholes with his words like no one else.  You have to admit he's pretty damn good at it.
> 
> None of that is pointed at you,@dad4, @Grace T., etc.....I enjoy convos with all you folks.   I just can't handle when these yahoos aren't called out for their BS.


Fair enough but the only people GG is obliterating are his imaginary bogeymen.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> To be clear,  there are absolutely racists, homophobes, and transphobes on these message boards.  You don't have to look too hard to find them.  I don't particularly care for how GG clumps people together when you disagree even slightly.  That said,  I can put that aside when he obliterates some of these arseholes with his words like no one else.  You have to admit he's pretty damn good at it.
> 
> None of that is pointed at you,@dad4, @Grace T., etc.....I enjoy convos with all you folks.   I just can't handle when these yahoos aren't called out for their BS.


...imagine that, the whole deck of victim cards. Yet, strangely no mention of your sidekick constantly attacking kids...I guess you put that aside as well, right Dad? Strangely, you leftist have taken to focusing on kids and degrading women...disturbingly pushing sexual content and freakish sexual fetishes down to the youngest ages. A Day of reckoning is on its way.


----------



## crush

Happy April Fools Day to all the fools.  We have gone full circle again and I am again being called a racist white man of privilege because I want ALL kids to be born and not killed.  81,000,000 kids killed in America since 1972.  Yikes!!!  Now these same fools want to control our kids in the classroom with Jabs, mask, boosters and sex Ed.  If you obey, you can play sports in college and risk blood clots and heart attacks.  I told you all the system is a big fat mess.  Grab your kids and teach them the truth or someone else will.


----------



## crush

To all the men who are fools and have caused so much evil on this planet, Happy Fools Day!!!

*When His Girlfriend Said It Was Too Late for an Abortion, He Punched Her in the Stomach to Kill Her Baby*

According to the report, police said Koa Barker, 17, of Gainesville, assaulted his pregnant girlfriend on Saturday after he told her that he did not want the baby. 

Barker allegedly punched the 18-year-old woman twice in the stomach, choked her, slapped her, shoved her and told her he “wanted to kill her,” police told the newspaper.

The girlfriend said she had told Barker it was “too late for an abortion,” according to police. She said she is 15 weeks pregnant.


----------



## MicPaPa

Stay off the kids!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509666894386765825


----------



## crush

Hey Hound, look's like Phoenix has taken over LA for runner up to Seattle for the most homeless tents.  I think all the rich liberals in Scottsdale, Kirkland and Beverly Hills should open up their homes to the homeless.  Small business is ruined in these cities.  The rich is all we got now.  The middle class is being destroyed by our pals, the Smiths.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> View attachment 13159
> 
> Hey Hound, look's like Phoenix has taken over LA for runner up to Seattle for the most homeless tents.  I think all the rich liberals in Scottsdale, Kirkland and Beverly Hills should open up their homes to the homeless.  Small business is ruined in these cities.  The rich is all we got now.  The middle class is being destroyed by our pals, the Smiths.


The homeless in general have a quitters mentality, if the Government would
stop lactating cash and subsidies to them they would either find a job/housing
or cease to exist.
Sounds harsh, but life is rough. And every bleeding heart liberal is about to
find out real quick when THEY are competing for the bread and soup while
in line with the hardened homeless THEY created.

The next 6 - 8 months are going to really expose the criminality of the Democrats.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> The homeless in general have a quitters mentality, if the Government would
> stop lactating cash and subsidies to them they would either find a job/housing
> or cease to exist.
> Sounds harsh, but life is rough. And every bleeding heart liberal is about to
> find out real quick when THEY are competing for the bread and soup while
> in line with the hardened homeless THEY created.
> 
> The next 6 - 8 months are going to really expose the criminality of the Democrats.
> 
> View attachment 13160


Very harsh and not like Yeshua at all but it's what people believe.  Like I said before, it takes $11 to get $1 to the poor.  Also, you only pick one side to blame for crimes.  You want to add any other group?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Lia Thomas is someone's kid.  It's ok to verbally abuse her but not the kids of those who do?  Also keep in mind that I'm not attacking any kid.  Unlike with his personal attacks on an actual person, I don't even know who his kid is.  What I am doing is sarcastically mocking his and his friends' claims that trans women are taking spots away from others, including on rec teams, which is clearly a fear of his given prior posts.  I know you want to turn this into something it isn't by trying to paint me as being mean to kids.  Don't worry, I would give his kid a fair analysis of her ability if he wants it.


I always saw it as you were being quite sympathetic to the kids seeing the opinions of their parents. You aren’t insulting the kids you are depicting what the effect their parents are having on them, which could be detrimental and in turn the parent (poster) then lashes out in guilt. Guilt ridden Karens.


----------



## NorCalDad

met61 said:


> ...imagine that, the whole deck of victim cards. Yet, strangely no mention of your sidekick constantly attacking kids...I guess you put that aside as well, right Dad? Strangely, you leftist have taken to focusing on kids and degrading women...disturbingly pushing sexual content and freakish sexual fetishes down to the youngest ages. A Day of reckoning is on its way.


...wtf are you talking about? Did you just get back from your QAnon meeting?  Day of Reckoning sounds like a movie title....perhaps staring Will Smith.


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> ...wtf are you talking about? Did you just get back from your QAnon meeting?  Day of Reckoning sounds like a movie title....perhaps staring Will Smith.


I'd watch Will Smith and Chris Rock in Day of Reckoning.

Not sure I'd spend money on Day of ReckonIng III...


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I'd watch Will Smith and Chris Rock in Day of Reckoning.
> 
> Not sure I'd spend money on Day of ReckonIng III...


Nah, not those guys.  "Luc Deveraux, report to makeup please."  Kind of like MST3K.  If you make it to the final credits, you'll wish it was the end of the world.


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> ...wtf are you talking about? Did you just get back from your QAnon meeting?  Day of Reckoning sounds like a movie title....perhaps staring Will Smith.


... again, you're sidestepping the issue...why is the left obsessed with our kids and degrading women?


----------



## met61

NorCalDad said:


> ...wtf are you talking about? Did you just get back from your QAnon meeting?  Day of Reckoning sounds like a movie title....perhaps staring Will Smith.


... BTW, it was actually a NBC poll and lefty fanboy Chuck Todd depressingly calling it a "shellacking." ...day of reckoning was my take on what NBC's own poll says about you and your sidekick's twisted values and ideology.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ... again, you're sidestepping the issue...why is the left obsessed with our kids and degrading women?


They want to teach the kids their way of Sex ed.  They also like to teach the kiddos that's its the white dudes fault for all this evil on the planet.  I think we all agree evil comes in many colors, shapes and sizes.  My best pal has been teaching for over 25 years now and will retire soon.  His wife has home schooled the three kids since birth.  He said it's insane what their telling & teaching the kids these days and it's a full court press of our way or else.  They get to pass out the grades as well, so you best better obey or your grades will suck and you can;t go to college with bad grades  Teachers telling kids they best better put mask on or else.  They best better get jabbed or else.  They best better support Ukraine or else.  They better get the jab to be cool and fit in with the rest.  Teacher is now the preacher of one side or else your fired!!!  The school is where they brainwashed everyone who doesn't think for themselves or dare ask a few questions.  Those who ask questions are labelled cocky, stupid, arrogant and not one they can control.  It's obvious now.  Trust me met61, the Seals have been unleashed and all the indictments will be opened and dripped out until all the over 300,000 indictments are released.  Camp Delta and Camp Justice down at Gitmo has no vacancies.  Their is some over crowding and they put those folks on ships off the coast at the Bay.  It's really happening.  They ((those on the left and the right in dirty politics and pay to play games)) cheated, spied, lied when they got caught and then unleashed poison on the world to slow down judgement day and live a little longer.  They got busted and justice is here.  Vengeance is where we as pissed off men need to be calm and let the pros handle the criminals who sold our country out. Pay to play with one's soul is the gnarly part in all this and some will not look to change their ways.  Peace to you sir and father of kids.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I'd watch Will Smith and Chris Rock in Day of Reckoning.
> 
> Not sure I'd spend money on Day of ReckonIng III...


...the weak enablers and compromisers of Truth can only hope they come for them last.


----------



## crush

My pal has been jabbed twice.  He will not get the boosters and kept his kids from the jab.  He has been sick so much you guys but he is honest.  He told me he was wrong but only did IT because of the fear of losing his job.  My other old minister pal was on Meta preaching to everyone why Christ would have taken the jabs and even used scriptures to back up his teaching.  Well, his younger sister said no to jab for a long time.  However, her work told her she needs to be an example as head of HR.  She said "no" and "no" again and again until she finally caved in.  Guess what?  She died 30 days after taking the jab.  This is serious you guys.


----------



## crush

If you have been vaxxed...you have been hacked.
					

How long until they start changing behavior? Has it already started? Source: The channel Hate Speech. More videos you may have missed: This channel will pay a price for sharing this video. So be it. https://www.bitchute.com/video/XasW9AmHk51Q/  …




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Only those with a *C*ertificate *O*f *V*accination *ID* *((COVID)) *card can ride in the Princess Cruise right now and no one else is allowed to set sail.  Only those who obeyed the boss.  Well, somehow all the vaccinated got the virus spread all over the place and now they have to Doc in San Francisco to clean up the big mess.  People sick with Covid, as if that is a suprise.  My Covid pals all get sick and for long time.  I can't wait for the unvaccinated cruise for those who said, "Never, no jab."  I wonder how many will get Covid?  Wow, that would be amazing and I see that coming some day.  It's the right thing to do.  Try being shunned the last two years and kicked out of food places and fired for not wearing a mask or taking the jab.  It would be cool to have "Happy hour for the non jabbers" as well.  By the way, the new guy looking to run France said he will 100% welcome back all the unvaccinated and even said, "we need you back."  It made me cry.  We need those dudes who think first and think outside the box and did not take the poison.  The guys that told their boss to buzz off when it came to injecting unknown bat stuff in one's blood stream, even if they got fired. We need to thank all teachers, doctors and nurses that told their boss to buzz off, we need them back at work as well.  No more division.  This was wrong you guys.  Please don;t say were doing all this to save Ukraine, please don't say that.  You cheated!!!   Now, let us unvaccinated enjoy a cruise for free and then see what illnesses come up.  Let's see if we have to Doc somewhere.  After the test, we will all see the truth.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ... again, you're sidestepping the issue...why is the left obsessed with our kids and degrading women?


“Do you still beat your wife?”


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Do you still beat your wife?”


... another sidestep.

... BTW, I have never beat my wife, or  ever touched any female out of anger or malice. Truth is easy...lying and deception bring forth sidesteps.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ... another sidestep.
> 
> ... BTW, I have never beat my wife, or  ever touched any female out of anger or malice. Truth is easy...lying and deception bring forth sidesteps.


Over your head, yet again.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Do you still beat your wife?”





Hüsker Dü said:


> Over your head, yet again.


Those two above are the classic responses of an individual 
who is projecting his own disgusting habits.

Your poor partner ( if you even have " One " ) probably 
cowers upon the jingling of the door keys.

Try this, it's a time proven solution.



Well worn, but the message is clear.


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Do you still beat your wife?”


Like you do when you're drunk..


----------



## Multi Sport

thirteenknots said:


> Those two above are the classic responses of an individual
> who is projecting his own disgusting habits.
> 
> Your poor partner ( if you even have " One " ) probably
> cowers upon the jingling of the door keys.
> 
> Try this, it's a time proven solution.
> 
> View attachment 13167
> 
> Well worn, but the message is clear.


This guy.. or maybe he's one of those non-binary things, can't stay off the bottle. His original name, Rat Patrol, he claimed was for weeding out the rats on the forum. He's known more as the forum clown then anything else.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Multi Sport said:


> This guy.. or maybe he's one of those non-binary things, can't stay off the bottle. His original name, Rat Patrol, he claimed was for weeding out the rats on the forum. He's known more as the forum clown then anything else.


Yep, you’re hurt. Seek help.


----------



## MicPaPa

Do actual feminist still exist?

Looks like the left's pregnant man emoji is having it's intended effect.









						British hospitals asking men if they are pregnant before getting scans
					

Aside from the standard questions, men in England who require medical scans are now being asked if they are pregnant.




					torontosun.com
				




NOTE: Please do not use Woman or Women regarding pregnancy - it is now "Pregnant Person" or "Pregnant Individual" or "Pregnant People"



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/03/31/pregnancy-covid-risk/


----------



## crush

Roger Stone is saying what Madison is sharing from his heart and the truth about the adult parties in DC.  The young Congressman got the invites and enticements to attend the Honeypot Parties.  Stone knows all too well because he attended these parties in his Pagan days ((never sold his soul though)) and did work with Dick Nixon.  Saint t was no Saint in the old days and was 100% apart of the club.



Both men capitulated after being interviewed by the DA in Florida when Jeffrey was being arrested and investigated.  It made both t and Stone puke and find the Creator quickly and the way of Christ.  Every knee will bow and confess, "Yeshua is the Lord" and they both bowed you guys.  Yes, both men were blind and worldly men, one living in the Swamp and making money in the Swamp and the other one paying the Swamp Creatures to play in their games of pay to play.  I believe t had a once in a life time wake up call to the abuse of children and a chance to either help or GTF out of the way. He found the way of Christ through divine intervention, like Saul.  Many of my atheist and agnostic pals are now asking me questions about the ways of Christ and I love that.  Thanks again you guys for all your PMs, texts and high fives at Silver Lakes.  It means a lot.  I love you all, even my enemies. I sorry if my words that I wrote hurt you.  Some said I was nuts and some said I was just the right guy.  I know we have a few non-believers still here at the forum but soon and very soon you will see the TRUTH   This is good news, not harshness news.  Some men have used the bible to invoke fear and "you better obey or else" kind of life.  The Secular Atheists vs The Bible Bangers.  We can;t have that and have peace on earth.  I heard a minister say that some of the harshest and least forgiving humans are those who claim the Christ in their life but are just mean and harsh.  The letters shall be read as individual letters written to those in those times, not our times of today.  Cleaver they were in 360 AD to put 66 letters together and make the bible.  Thousands of letters were written and not allowed as "holy."  Not good.  They will all be shared for all to read and see and make up one's own mind.  The TRUTH has been hidden from us but not no more. 11,000 years of fear and wars will soon change to love and no more wars.  My Elitist pals who want badly to go back to the way things were are not happy at all and have stopped talking to me.  They are the last hold outs and want WWIII with Russia, Ukraine, China just go all out war and see what happens.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Do actual feminist still exist?
> 
> Looks like the left's pregnant man emoji is having it's intended effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> British hospitals asking men if they are pregnant before getting scans
> 
> 
> Aside from the standard questions, men in England who require medical scans are now being asked if they are pregnant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE: Please do not use Woman or Women regarding pregnancy - it is now "Pregnant Person" or "Pregnant Individual" or "Pregnant People"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/03/31/pregnancy-covid-risk/


Once they declared ftm trans individuals to be male, they had to ask about pregnancy.  

They can no longer rely on the medical accuracy of the male checkbox at the top of the form.  By their new definition, it is possible to be a pregnant male.


----------



## crush

Q post 1010, which is a four year delta 4 years ago is insane and remarkable all in one.  Math with Q is hard to argue with, when a 100% come true.  Plus John 10:10.  Go study and report back what you have learned.  I dare you to learn something new and outside the box.  I know many of you think I stopped taking my meds and that's ok.  I want you to know everything is going to work itself out.  No need to worry. These are going to be rough days for many of you who have lived under a rock or in your own little bubble of lies.  It's not your fault because the truth has been hidden in plain site and when you see it, you will go, "Oh, dah."  The TRUTH is about to be revealed and you must be mature about the TRUTH and except the TRUTH.  It will set you free.   The choice is yours.  Love or Fear.  Good luck you guys and I am pulling for every single one of you.  If Stone and t can change, so can you


----------



## crush

Elon has control of Twitter.  Bye bye Jack, just like Q said...lol!  Oh boy, plus Elon has a whole new Internet to roll out.  I told you guys long ago that all this was going down.  Let's see if he brings back t.  "My fellow Americans", we all got played by those who sold their soul and sold our country with their souls.  I would stock up on popcorn asap and watch the truth.  Put your emotions in check and listen carefully.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> Over your head, yet again.


...sure, ok.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Once they declared ftm trans individuals to be male, they had to ask about pregnancy.
> 
> They can no longer rely on the medical accuracy of the male checkbox at the top of the form.  By their new definition, it is possible to be a pregnant male.


...it is just one boy playing rec sports, what does it matter.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...it is just one boy playing rec sports, what does it matter.


Before you know it, they're going to make your children trans.  I mean, look what happened when they let just one black kid into public school and started letting gay people get married, right?


----------



## crush

Math News:  They saved lives and just under 10,000 lives were lost in the last two years that died with Covid ((flu)) only, but killed over 150,000 ((Vaers reporting)) with the Jab and injured millions with heart attacks, blood clots, cancer, AIDS, Bells Palsy and we will see and learn much much more as the days, weeks, months and years go by and as more and more end up in the hospital.  My friends sister died because of being pressured by her boss to be a good example and since she was in charghe of HR, she finally caved in.  She died 30 days later on a ventilator.  The 150,000+ is from the Vaers reporting data, which is only 1% of the truth.  Plastic is being found in people's blood for God's sakes.  People are dying of AIDS you guys.  Now these same men want to talk about other men taking the spot of real females in sports and modeling gigs.  Come on math teacher guy dad, please help me out with this math of death.  Plus, you supported masking little kids.  Horrible what you have supported sir.  Can you admit before all of us you were 100% wrong in your calculations?


----------



## crush

Life Insurance claims for those under 45 is 40% higher then two years ago.  Gee, I wonder why?  Some policies are denying people their claim because they ((the claims boss)) are saying that the person who died and took the jabs did so as volunteers to the experiment and that, plus suicide is not covered.  It's in the find print.


----------



## watfly

The NCAA always has the best interests of women sports in mind.









						Women’s Teams Shortchanged on Funding, ‘USA Today’ Analysis Finds | Inside Higher Ed
					

Colleges and universities that compete at the highest level of the National Collegiate Athletic Association spend 71 cents on women’s sports teams for every dollar they spend on comparable men’s teams, a USA Today analysis of NCAA financial reports shows. The newspaper analyzed financial reports...




					www.insidehighered.com


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...it is just one boy playing rec sports, what does it matter.


We just disagree on boys in girls rec sports.

As long as everyone gets a trophy, it’s pretty low stakes.  If the trans kid is significantly above average for height, weight, or skill, they probably need to be on the boys’ side.  If not, then I think it’s fine for the director to let the kid play where they feel comfortable.  I also think it’s ok for a director to say no if he thinks the kid would be bad for team balance.

Not sure what any of this has to do with falsifying medical records in Britain.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Math News:  They saved lives and just under 10,000 lives were lost in the last two years that died with Covid ((flu)) only, but killed over 150,000 ((Vaers reporting)) with the Jab and injured millions with heart attacks, blood clots, cancer, AIDS, Bells Palsy and we will see and learn much much more as the days, weeks, months and years go by and as more and more end up in the hospital.  My friends sister died because of being pressured by her boss to be a good example and since she was in charghe of HR, she finally caved in.  She died 30 days later on a ventilator.  The 150,000+ is from the Vaers reporting data, which is only 1% of the truth.  Plastic is being found in people's blood for God's sakes.  People are dying of AIDS you guys.  Now these same men want to talk about other men taking the spot of real females in sports and modeling gigs.  Come on math teacher guy dad, please help me out with this math of death.  Plus, you supported masking little kids.  Horrible what you have supported sir.  Can you admit before all of us you were 100% wrong in your calculations?


You have clearly demonstrated that one of two things is true.  Either the entire medical establishment is lying to me about vaccine risk.  Or the internet has a few dozen people who misinterpret VAERS data.

I’m not sure why you went with option 1 there.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You have clearly demonstrated that one of two things is true.  Either the entire medical establishment is lying to me about vaccine risk.  Or the internet has a few dozen people who misinterpret VAERS data.
> 
> I’m not sure why you went with option 1 there.


People are bought with jobs in so many places, they just do what their told by the puppet masters or they get fired.  Those dudes are the liars.  My sisters friend is dead dad, because she did what she was told to save her job and income.  That is truth.  You got played and preached lies everyday on here.  Sad!!!


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> The NCAA always has the best interests of women sports in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women’s Teams Shortchanged on Funding, ‘USA Today’ Analysis Finds | Inside Higher Ed
> 
> 
> Colleges and universities that compete at the highest level of the National Collegiate Athletic Association spend 71 cents on women’s sports teams for every dollar they spend on comparable men’s teams, a USA Today analysis of NCAA financial reports shows. The newspaper analyzed financial reports...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insidehighered.com


always..


----------



## crush

"Behold the Light" is within the grasp of each of us.  Wahe Guru is within you, yes, you can be a true Guru by dealing with your own darkness.  Listen to the words you guys.  Love you all!!!


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> We just disagree on boys in girls rec sports.
> 
> As long as everyone gets a trophy, it’s pretty low stakes.  If the trans kid is significantly above average for height, weight, or skill, they probably need to be on the boys’ side.  If not, then I think it’s fine for the director to let the kid play where they feel comfortable.  I also think it’s ok for a director to say no if he thinks the kid would be bad for team balance.
> 
> Not sure what any of this has to do with falsifying medical records in Britain.


...I am confident you understand what the connection is...but, I will restate again...it has to do with the  enabling and continued erosion of Truth in a post-Truth era.

...why do you think they are determined to degrade what it is to be a woman and to share their personal sexual proclivities with and teach sexual content to the youngest school ages?


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> The NCAA always has the best interests of women sports in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women’s Teams Shortchanged on Funding, ‘USA Today’ Analysis Finds | Inside Higher Ed
> 
> 
> Colleges and universities that compete at the highest level of the National Collegiate Athletic Association spend 71 cents on women’s sports teams for every dollar they spend on comparable men’s teams, a USA Today analysis of NCAA financial reports shows. The newspaper analyzed financial reports...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insidehighered.com


...does the expected progression surprise you?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You have clearly demonstrated that one of two things is true.  Either the entire medical establishment is lying to me about vaccine risk.  Or the internet has a few dozen people who misinterpret VAERS data.
> 
> I’m not sure why you went with option 1 there.


...is this for affect? or do you actually believe the entire medical, and scientific for that matter, establishments are in complete agreement regarding risks from the vaccine?

...given the toxic partisan political conditions this vaccine was established under, coupled with numerous reported occurrences and incidents of side effects...and unknowable long-term data/studies...is it not fair and  prudent to ask questions and be skeptical of "the complete agreeance" by any establishment associated with this matter?


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You have clearly demonstrated that one of two things is true.  Either the entire medical establishment is lying to me about vaccine risk.  Or the internet has a few dozen people who misinterpret VAERS data.
> 
> I’m not sure why you went with option 1 there.


You know, both can be true.  Most recent MMWR publishing IRT mycocarditis was just either plain wrong (incompetence by the CDC OR they were lying).  maybe they have a basic misunderstanding of billing codes in the EHR or don't realize that most kids don't test within th system, but test at home?  Who knows, both maybe true.  Blind trust in bureaucracy is sketchy


----------



## MicPaPa

Well done ladies! Braver than several men/women/parents on this forum. It's unfortunate they're put in this position.









						Transgender Cyclist Booted From Women’s Championship After Female Competitors Threaten Boycott | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com


----------



## crush

Two Euro competitive bike riders died suddenly and another suffers a heart attack at the finish line in the last two weeks.


----------



## dad4

met61 said:


> ...I am confident you understand what the connection is...but, I will restate again...it has to do with the  enabling and continued erosion of Truth in a post-Truth era.
> 
> ...why do you think they are determined to degrade what it is to be a woman and to share their personal sexual proclivities with and teach sexual content to the youngest school ages?


As long as you are such a defender of Truth, can you tell me the Truth about how to properly capitalize words in standard American English?

Or are you under the misconception that you speak as the Bible speaks, and that your words have the weight of the Lord behind them?  

If so, knock it off.  That kind of Truth tends to lead to Pogroms.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yep, you’re hurt. Seek help.



You're not a Practitioner.
You're not a Psychologist.
You're not a Therapist.
You're not an Educationalist.
You're not even a good Controversialist.

But you are very good at Regurgitation.
Never an independent thought have you
presented on this forum. Not once.

The Democrat/Socialist Party holds your hand 24/7.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> You have clearly demonstrated that one of two things is true.  Either the entire medical establishment is lying to me about vaccine risk.  Or the internet has a few dozen people who misinterpret VAERS data.
> 
> I’m not sure why you went with option 1 there.


The entire Medical Establishment is guilty of facilitating MURDER.
$ 45,000.00 + a patient.

Anyone who took the " Jab " ( Especially Multiple times. ) should seek 
regular heart exams at the very least.

This isn't a Joke. 
This is Real Time advice to help those who were deceived/manipulated 
by the Federal Government.


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> The entire Medical Establishment is guilty of facilitating MURDER.
> $ 45,000.00 + a patient.
> 
> Anyone who took the " Jab " ( Especially Multiple times. ) should seek
> regular heart exams at the very least.
> 
> This isn't a Joke.
> This is Real Time advice to help those who were deceived/manipulated
> by the Federal Government.


My wife said one of her friends lives in VA and she said her kids, who have been jabbed, have to have their heart looked at before their cleared to play sports.  It's for precaution but you have to ask, why?  Bruce Willis had to retire because of what he came down with and wouldnt you guess, blood clots in brain some are saying.  Deion lost two toes from clots in his blood.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Math News:  They saved lives and just under 10,000 lives were lost in the last two years that died with Covid ((flu)) only, but killed over 150,000 ((Vaers reporting)) with the Jab and injured millions with heart attacks, blood clots, cancer, AIDS, Bells Palsy and we will see and learn much much more as the days, weeks, months and years go by and as more and more end up in the hospital.  My friends sister died because of being pressured by her boss to be a good example and since she was in charghe of HR, she finally caved in.  She died 30 days later on a ventilator.  The 150,000+ is from the Vaers reporting data, which is only 1% of the truth.  Plastic is being found in people's blood for God's sakes.  People are dying of AIDS you guys.  Now these same men want to talk about other men taking the spot of real females in sports and modeling gigs.  Come on math teacher guy dad, please help me out with this math of death.  Plus, you supported masking little kids.  Horrible what you have supported sir.  Can you admit before all of us you were 100% wrong in your calculations?


So Vogue magazine is also part of the secret conspiracy to depopulate Earth through a combination of mask and vaccine mandates and support for transgender women?  Or is there another reason your kid isn't getting the modeling gigs you were hoping for?

Too bad your friend's sister didn't get vaccinated earlier.  Might have saved her life.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> My wife said one of her friends lives in VA and she said her kids, who have been jabbed, have to have their heart looked at before their cleared to play sports.  It's for precaution but you have to ask, why?  Bruce Willis had to retire because of what he came down with and wouldnt you guess, blood clots in brain some are saying.  Deion lost two toes from clots in his blood.


I heard Hank Gathers also died from the Covid-19 vaccine. 

How's unemployment?  Have you picked out a nice spot for van down by the river?


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Two Euro competitive bike riders died suddenly and another suffers a heart attack at the finish line in the last two weeks.
> 
> View attachment 13178


That's a photo of Michael Goolaerts dying in 2018 dumb shit.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> That's a photo of Michael Goolaerts dying in 2018 dumb shit.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> As long as you are such a defender of Truth, can you tell me the Truth about how to properly capitalize words in standard American English?
> 
> Or are you under the misconception that you speak as the Bible speaks, and that your words have the weight of the Lord behind them?
> 
> If so, knock it off.  That kind of Truth tends to lead to Pogroms.


...to the extent this obviously bothers you, speaks way more about you than just grammar etiquette.

...the fact you continue to dodge simple questions through feigning exasperation... clearly shows your confliction with the Truth.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> As long as you are such a defender of Truth, can you tell me the Truth about how to properly capitalize words in standard American English?
> 
> Or are you under the misconception that you speak as the Bible speaks, and that your words have the weight of the Lord behind them?
> 
> If so, knock it off.  That kind of Truth tends to lead to Pogroms.


Seriously, a veiled Nazi reference? Not surprising @GoldenShower got a woody from it - surprising is you stooping to this level.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> Seriously, a veiled Nazi reference? Not surprising @GoldenShower got a woody from it - surprising is you stooping to this level.


"Pogrom" is a Russian word.


----------



## crush




----------



## met61

espola said:


> "Pogrom" is a Russian word.



Your new rule? words can only be used within context of their country of origin - you should probably inform Oxford.

po·grom
/ˈpōɡrəm,pəˈɡräm/
_noun_

an organized massacre of a particular ethnic group, in particular that of Jewish people in Russia or eastern Europe.
"the Nazis began *a pogrom against* Jewish people in Germany"

I guess grammar policing is now the preferred method of topic avoidance.


----------



## crush




----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> "Pogrom" is a Russian word.


LOL!

This --->


met61 said:


> Your new rule? words can only be used within context of their country of origin - you should probably inform Oxford.
> 
> po·grom
> /ˈpōɡrəm,pəˈɡräm/
> _noun_
> 
> an organized massacre of a particular ethnic group, in particular that of Jewish people in Russia or eastern Europe.
> "the Nazis began *a pogrom against* Jewish people in Germany"
> 
> I guess grammar policing is now the preferred method of topic avoidance.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> "Pogrom" is a Russian word.


Universal concept though.  I was thinking of Cromwell‘s anti Catholic campaigns, Louis XIV’s murder of Calvinists, Poland’s anti-Jewish pogroms in the 1700s, and the multiple papal inquisitions.  

Met61 seems to think that Nazis were the only people to ever kill someone over race or religion.  One more example of the weakness in the modern educational system.  I bet his teachers were unionized.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Universal concept though.  I was thinking of Cromwell‘s anti Catholic campaigns, Louis XIV’s murder of Calvinists, Poland’s anti-Jewish pogroms in the 1700s, and the multiple papal inquisitions.
> 
> Met61 seems to think that Nazis were the only people to ever kill someone over race or religion.  One more example of the weakness in the modern educational system.  I bet his teachers were unionized.


You seem to think that union members were never the object of pogroms.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Universal concept though.  I was thinking of Cromwell‘s anti Catholic campaigns, Louis XIV’s murder of Calvinists, Poland’s anti-Jewish pogroms in the 1700s, and the multiple papal inquisitions.
> 
> Met61 seems to think that Nazis were the only people to ever kill someone over race or religion.  One more example of the weakness in the modern educational system.  I bet his teachers were unionized.


...your issue is with Oxford, the Nazi example is theirs...all the way down to the bold type...my use of it was to highlight @espola 's ridiculous word origin nonsense...and once again, we both know you understood what I meant...yet you chose your go-to response...avoidance.

...my teachers taught making one's case from a position firmly grounded in Truth, facts, and logic...no unions involved with Catholic schools, one of many benefits.

...if anything, I'd say, the pandemic and  toxic social curriculum pushed in public schools, reveals you and unions appear to sing from the same hymnal.

...yet, in the end...your list of avoided questions and emotion based responses continues to grow... although, I do recall experiencing several leftist professors cut from this same cloth, so I get where you're coming from.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...your issue is with Oxford, the Nazi example is theirs...all the way down to the bold type...my use of it was to highlight @espola 's ridiculous word origin nonsense...and once again, we both know you understood what I meant...yet you chose your go-to response...avoidance.
> 
> ...my teachers taught making one's case from a position firmly grounded in Truth, facts, and logic...no unions involved with Catholic schools, one of many benefits.
> 
> ...if anything, I'd say, the pandemic and  toxic social curriculum pushed in public schools, reveals you and unions appear to sing from the same hymnal.
> 
> ...yet, in the end...your list of avoided questions and emotion based responses continues to grow... although, I do recall experiencing several leftist professors cut from this same cloth, so I get where you're coming from.


The origin of the word is Russian and predates the Nazis by a lot.  Espola is exactly right about the word origin.  

You are one of the many downsides of a Catholic education.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> The origin of the word is Russian and predates the Nazis by a lot.  Espola is exactly right about the word origin.
> 
> You are one of the many downsides of a Catholic education.


What do you attribute to your lemming education display?


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> The origin of the word is Russian and predates the Nazis by a lot.  Espola is exactly right about the word origin.
> 
> You are one of the many downsides of a Catholic education.


...not surprised the point escaped you...although, I will acknowledge the both of you as peas in a pod.

...absolutely agree that a Catholic education is a downside for your type.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...not surprised the point escaped you...although, I will acknowledge the both of you as peas in a pod.
> 
> ...absolutely agree that a Catholic education is a downside for your type.


You mean that the dictionary definition of "pogrom" has changed over time to be more accurate, just as the dictionary definition of "woman"?  The Truth.  

Do you know what isn't Truth?  A fake invisible person in the sky who said you should stone gay and trans people to death, up until he changed his mind.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> You mean that the dictionary definition of "pogrom" has changed over time to be more accurate, just as the dictionary definition of "woman"?  The Truth.
> 
> Do you know what isn't Truth?  A fake invisible person in the sky who said you should stone gay and trans people to death, up until he changed his mind.


 how has the defintion of "woman" changed?


----------



## crush

"Keep this low key" bro.  I needs a favor and your the go to son I'm told ((son with a Papi in high places)) lol!!!  The old game is coming to an end and new game is starting for those with a good heart.  Not a perfect human, just one that is HOT and willing to create a new way with the Creator.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> You mean that the dictionary definition of "pogrom" has changed over time to be more accurate, just as the dictionary definition of "woman"?  The Truth.
> 
> Do you know what isn't Truth?  A fake invisible person in the sky who said you should stone gay and trans people to death, up until he changed his mind.



A. You do not understand what a woman is. ( Fact ! )
B. You have lost your way.

Biology 101:

Man = XY The sperm carrier.
Woman = XX The ovum carrier.

This process only works ONE way.
You cannot cosmetically construct and duplicate what 
God created.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> A. You do not understand what a woman is. ( Fact ! )
> B. You have lost your way.
> 
> Biology 101:
> 
> Man = XY The sperm carrier.
> Woman = XX The ovum carrier.
> 
> This process only works ONE way.
> You cannot cosmetically construct and duplicate what
> God created.


That's so close! that it's not worth trying to correct you.

Consider this -- the X chromosome part is female.  All humans have an X chromosome.

That is also not entirely correct, but it's closer than your opinion.

And what about XYY, XXX, and XXY people?  Man or woman?


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> You mean that the dictionary definition of "pogrom" has changed over time to be more accurate, just as the dictionary definition of "woman"?  The Truth.
> 
> Do you know what isn't Truth?  A fake invisible person in the sky who said you should stone gay and trans people to death, up until he changed his mind.


Wow, edgy and brave! Now get out from behind your keyboard, don your skinny jeans and rainbow tee, and go to your local mosque and do a fake invisible Allah bit.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> A. You do not understand what a woman is. ( Fact ! )
> B. You have lost your way.
> 
> Biology 101:
> 
> Man = XY The sperm carrier.
> Woman = XX The ovum carrier.
> 
> This process only works ONE way.
> You cannot cosmetically construct and duplicate what
> God created.


So now the Bible is the sports rulebook?  I thought it was the dictionary?


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> Wow, edgy and brave! Now get out from behind your keyboard, don your skinny jeans and rainbow tee, and go to your local mosque and do a fake invisible Allah bit.


Gays, trans and brown people are all coming for your children.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> That's so close! that it's not worth trying to correct you.
> 
> Consider this -- the X chromosome part is female.  All humans have an X chromosome.
> 
> That is also not entirely correct, but it's closer than you opinion.
> 
> And what about XYY, XXX, and XXY people?  Man or woman?


It’s not really that blurry.  All three of those conditions are pretty rare.   On the order of 0.1% of people.

It’s irrelevant anyway.  None of the athletes in question have one of those conditions.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That's so close! that it's not worth trying to correct you.
> 
> Consider this -- the X chromosome part is female.  All humans have an X chromosome.
> 
> That is also not entirely correct, but it's closer than you opinion.
> 
> And what about XYY, XXX, and XXY people?  Man or woman?


Let me help you, they are disorders but are still:  man, woman, man.  

XYY - can get XX pregnant
XXX - can get pregnant by XY and XXY, a bit hard by XXY
XXY - usually infertile, can get XX pregnant with treatment.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> It’s not really that blurry.  All three of those conditions are pretty rare.   On the order of 0.1% of people.
> 
> It’s irrelevant anyway.  None of the athletes in question have one of those conditions.


13K is the one you should be addressing.  He's the one with the absolutist statements.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Let me help you, they are disorders but are still:  man, woman, man.
> 
> XYY - can get XX pregnant
> XXX - can get pregnant by XY and XXY, a bit hard by XXY
> XXY - usually infertile, can get XX pregnant with treatment.


Are you proposing that "can get pregnant" is a proper definition of woman?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Are you proposing that "can get pregnant" is a proper definition of woman?


I knew if this stuff about X's and Y's stewed long enough we'd come to a point of realization that defining any biological trait by genotype alone is never sufficient.  Ultimately, there has to be some kind of phenotypic expression.  That's what a trait is.

So, yes, all the guys posting here should try this out tonight.  Hi Honey I'm home.  Guess what I learned today?  What makes you a woman is not that you are XX (with one of them being inactivated in each cell at that).  It's that I can get you preggers.  It's just Truth, Fact and Biology.  

She may well have a different take on Truth, Fact and Biology. Her Truth and Facts may involve you having to tell the dog to slide it over on the couch that night, and getting a crash course in the Biology of pain and swelling.


----------



## met61

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I knew if this stuff about X's and Y's stewed long enough we'd come to a point of realization that defining any biological trait by genotype alone is never sufficient.  Ultimately, there has to be some kind of phenotypic expression.  That's what a trait is.
> 
> So, yes, all the guys posting here should try this out tonight.  Hi Honey I'm home.  Guess what I learned today?  What makes you a woman is not that you are XX (with one of them being inactivated in each cell at that).  It's that I can get you preggers.  It's just Truth, Fact and Biology.
> 
> She may well have a different take on Truth, Fact and Biology. Her Truth and Facts may involve you having to tell the dog to slide it over on the couch that night, and getting a crash course in the Biology of pain and swelling.


...Truth is clear and simple...women cannot be men and men cannot be women.

...anything short of Truth, requires the song and dance you just performed above.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> It’s not really that blurry.  All three of those conditions are pretty rare.   On the order of 0.1% of people.
> 
> It’s irrelevant anyway.  None of the athletes in question have one of those conditions.


... actually, it is relevant to the left...they only need a kernel to fuel their agenda and construct their lies upon.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

met61 said:


> ...Truth is clear and simple...women cannot be men and men cannot be women.
> 
> ...anything short of Truth, requires the song and dance you just performed above.


Heh heh.  What about Immaculate Conception, then?  Is that Song and Dance or Chapter and Verse?  I imagine Truth comes with a convenient dichotomous cleavage point.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Heh heh.  What about Immaculate Conception, then?  Is that Song and Dance or Chapter and Verse?  I imagine Truth comes with a convenient dichotomous cleavage point.


A difficult question for serious Jesuit scientists is the sex-chromosome genotype of Jesus.  Since her only biological parent was her mother, one must assume it was XX since there was no one to contribute a Y.  That makes her a woman, right?

Unless,  of course, Mary was one of those rare trisomy individuals.


----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I knew if this stuff about X's and Y's stewed long enough we'd come to a point of realization that defining any biological trait by genotype alone is never sufficient.  Ultimately, there has to be some kind of phenotypic expression.  That's what a trait is.
> 
> So, yes, all the guys posting here should try this out tonight.  Hi Honey I'm home.  Guess what I learned today?  What makes you a woman is not that you are XX (with one of them being inactivated in each cell at that).  It's that I can get you preggers.  It's just Truth, Fact and Biology.
> 
> She may well have a different take on Truth, Fact and Biology. Her Truth and Facts may involve you having to tell the dog to slide it over on the couch that night, and getting a crash course in the Biology of pain and swelling.


Lot of words, but it erodes your own point.

If you're going with phenotypic expression, then you have to group people by birth gender.  Those are the genes which were expressed.

Surgery doesn't count.  Otherwise, you have to believe in unicorns whenever someone cuts one horn off of a goat.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Lot of words, but it erodes your own point.
> 
> If you're going with phenotypic expression, then you have to group people by birth gender.  Those are the genes which were expressed.
> 
> Surgery doesn't count.  Otherwise, you have to believe in unicorns whenever someone cuts one horn off of a goat.


Even phenotypes can be ambiguous.  There have been a few cases recorded where the newborn was genotypically male (XY) but due to a congenital malformation there were none of the expected male organs visible.  Parents had to decide whether to raise the child as a male with no external genitals, or allow surgery to convert the child to a sterile female, with appropriate hormone treatment during the time that puberty was expected.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> A difficult question for serious Jesuit scientists is the sex-chromosome genotype of Jesus.  Since her only biological parent was her mother, one must assume it was XX since there was no one to contribute a Y.  That makes her a woman, right?
> 
> Unless,  of course, Mary was one of those rare trisomy individuals.


Right, if one wants to approach the issue from genetics, the genotype of Mary becomes a question.  And the karyotype of Jesus-the only haploid human thing. But, even for the Jesuits, I think the real question is whether genetics is the right pond to be fishing for answers.  After all, I think it is only doctrine, not the Biblical text per se, taking a hard line where devine conception and biological conception mean the same thing.  The reference in Luke to Mary's relative Elizabeth conceiving a child in old age is also sort of interesting.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> A difficult question for serious Jesuit scientists is the sex-chromosome genotype of Jesus.  Since her only biological parent was her mother, one must assume it was XX since there was no one to contribute a Y.  That makes her a woman, right?
> 
> Unless,  of course, Mary was one of those rare trisomy individuals.


I’m fairly sure once once you have faith, you kinda have to accept ‘miracles’ or acts of God. I’d be surprised if your proposed concerns are really anything ‘serious Jesuit scientists’ are struggling to deal with.

Then again…

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> I’m fairly sure once once you have faith, you kinda have to accept ‘miracles’ or acts of God. I’d be surprised if your proposed concerns are really anything ‘serious Jesuit scientists’ are struggling to deal with.
> 
> Then again…
> 
> “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”


Calvinism is even more strict, with the belief that your salvation is determined before you are born.  A lot of sins can hide under that cloak.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Right, if one wants to approach the issue from genetics, the genotype of Mary becomes a question.  And the karyotype of Jesus-the only haploid human thing. But, even for the Jesuits, I think the real question is whether genetics is the right pond to be fishing for answers.  After all, I think it is only doctrine, not the Biblical text per se, taking a hard line where devine conception and biological conception mean the same thing.  The reference in Luke to Mary's relative Elizabeth conceiving a child in old age is also sort of interesting.


Abraham's wife Sarah had a child at 90.  I don't know which is the bigger miracle - Sarah's pregnancy, or the couple's implied sexual activity at that age.


----------



## watfly

There is this interesting phenomenon lately where policy is designed around the exception, where it benefits the exception over the ordinary.  Not equal, but more reparative in nature.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Lot of words, but it erodes your own point.
> 
> If you're going with phenotypic expression, then you have to group people by birth gender.  Those are the genes which were expressed.
> 
> Surgery doesn't count.  Otherwise, you have to believe in unicorns whenever someone cuts one horn off of a goat.


I'll push a bit.  The stuff about surgery, identity, transformation is not relevant to a discussion of the inter-relationship between genotype and phenotype. If it is, it's much more complex and distributed across the genome than we can track at the moment. We agree-XX is the typical genotype of a woman.  Or we can say the absence of the Y.  Or we can say the absence of expression of the SRY region of the Y.  So, what is it about the expression of the XX genotype that defines a woman (or the other way around if you got SRY going on)? We had the ability to get pregnant.  Fails easily as a definition.  Some females are sterile.  Post menopausal women are still female. So you go, OK, birth gender, by which I'm guessing you mean some read out of the differentiation of sexual characteristics during development. Which ones-spell it out.  Your are just shifting the trait you want to hang your hat on. Try that definition with your wife instead.  Might not get you much further.  She might say "Oh, so now we have quantifiable elements in our definition".  Let's talk about measuring manhood and where you fall on that distribution shall we. 

Look, I don't give a rat's ass about the transgender swimmer thing or whatnot. The interesting part is genetics and fairness in sport.  Here's a different tact.  Take  your birth gender XYs and (to use your terminology) take a look at which genes are expressed (in reality, which variants of the genes are inherited and the levels to which they are expressed at different times in different  cells). Instead of quantifiable traits of "man" and "woman" take "talent" instead.  Humans have very little genetic diversity to begin with.  Sequence a million people-it's happening right now. Now, start building genetic correlates that are to some extent associated with the 95th percentile of a trait associated with talent.  How might that relate to fairness in sport?  

Sure, people are going to go "gaslighting".  But that's only because I don't care about what you are aguing about and talking beyond the narrow blinders placed around the conversation.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Even phenotypes can be ambiguous.  There have been a few cases recorded where the newborn was genotypically male (XY) but due to a congenital malformation there were none of the expected male organs visible.  Parents had to decide whether to raise the child as a male with no external genitals, or allow surgery to convert the child to a sterile female, with appropriate hormone treatment during the time that puberty was expected.


None of that applies to any of the athletes in question.

The athletes in question are XY with 46 chromosomes and no congenital deformities.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'll push a bit.  The stuff about surgery, identity, transformation is not relevant to a discussion of the inter-relationship between genotype and phenotype. If it is, it's much more complex and distributed across the genome than we can track at the moment. We agree-XX is the typical genotype of a woman.  Or we can say the absence of the Y.  Or we can say the absence of expression of the SRY region of the Y.  So, what is it about the expression of the XX genotype that defines a woman (or the other way around if you got SRY going on)? We had the ability to get pregnant.  Fails easily as a definition.  Some females are sterile.  Post menopausal women are still female. So you go, OK, birth gender, by which I'm guessing you mean some read out of the differentiation of sexual characteristics during development. Which ones-spell it out.  Your are just shifting the trait you want to hang your hat on. Try that definition with your wife instead.  Might not get you much further.  She might say "Oh, so now we have quantifiable elements in our definition".  Let's talk about measuring manhood and where you fall on that distribution shall we.
> 
> Look, I don't give a rat's ass about the transgender swimmer thing or whatnot. The interesting part is genetics and fairness in sport.  Here's a different tact.  Take  your birth gender XYs and (to use your terminology) take a look at which genes are expressed (in reality, which variants of the genes are inherited and the levels to which they are expressed at different times in different  cells). Instead of quantifiable traits of "man" and "woman" take "talent" instead.  Humans have very little genetic diversity to begin with.  Sequence a million people-it's happening right now. Now, start building genetic correlates that are to some extent associated with the 95th percentile of a trait associated with talent.  How might that relate to fairness in sport?
> 
> Sure, people are going to go "gaslighting".  But that's only because I don't care about what you are aguing about and talking beyond the narrow blinders placed around the conversation.


To repeat what I have said before, trans women who have had the physical advantage of passing through puberty as males should not be competing in women's sporting events no matter what their current testosterone levels are.  Otherwise, what is the point of women's sports in the first place?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> I’m fairly sure once once you have faith, you kinda have to accept ‘miracles’ or acts of God. I’d be surprised if your proposed concerns are really anything ‘serious Jesuit scientists’ are struggling to deal with.
> 
> Then again…
> 
> “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”


Jesuits try to rationalize some crazy things, but I largely agree with how you have framed it here.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I knew if this stuff about X's and Y's stewed long enough we'd come to a point of realization that defining any biological trait by genotype alone is never sufficient.  Ultimately, there has to be some kind of phenotypic expression.  That's what a trait is.
> 
> So, yes, all the guys posting here should try this out tonight.  Hi Honey I'm home.  Guess what I learned today?  What makes you a woman is not that you are XX (with one of them being inactivated in each cell at that).  It's that I can get you preggers.  It's just Truth, Fact and Biology.
> 
> She may well have a different take on Truth, Fact and Biology. Her Truth and Facts may involve you having to tell the dog to slide it over on the couch that night, and getting a crash course in the Biology of pain and swelling.


Sure, I'll buy this on the basis of male and female relationships and the psychological differerences between the sexes.  But what we are talking about is biological males competing against biological females.  That's something you can't change.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Lot of words, but it erodes your own point.
> 
> If you're going with phenotypic expression, then you have to group people by birth gender.  Those are the genes which were expressed.
> 
> Surgery doesn't count.  Otherwise, you have to believe in unicorns whenever someone cuts one horn off of a goat.


To you point, it's a silly research argument that avoids scientific facts.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> To repeat what I have said before, trans women who have had the physical advantage of passing through puberty as males should not be competing in women's sporting events no matter what their current testosterone levels are.  Otherwise, what is the point of women's sports in the first place?


I agree.  Men and women's sports are A-OK by me. I'm saying putting forth genetics as the arbiter of fairness, as people are trying to do here because it seems binary and determinant, may well lead to some interesting situations in the not so distant future.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Are you proposing that "can get pregnant" is a proper definition of woman?


As one of 3 XXers in my household, , getting pregnant is the #1 differentiator between XX and XY.  That was quite the silly statement.  Oh, let's not forget XXers lactate, have periods, etc.  Nothing that can be changed - the uterus is a thing.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> As one of 3 XXers in my household, , getting pregnant is the #1 differentiator between XX and XY.  That was quite the silly statement.  Oh, let's not forget XXers lactate, have periods, etc.  Nothing that can be changed - the uterus is a thing.


That's not a statement.  It's a question posed in the hope of getting an answer.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That's not a statement.  It's a question posed in the hope of getting an answer.


You must have answered another post.  Are you saying that getting pregnant and having children  happens to XYers? If that was the case, the world may be a better place


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> You must have answered another post.  Are you saying that getting pregnant and having children  happens to XYers? If that was the case, the world may be a better place


No.


----------



## met61

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Heh heh.  What about Immaculate Conception, then?  Is that Song and Dance or Chapter and Verse?  I imagine Truth comes with a convenient dichotomous cleavage point.


...the beauty about Faith is...if you're right we end up in the same place...if you're wrong we don't.

...no Jesuit scholars necessary.


----------



## MicPaPa

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'll push a bit.  The stuff about surgery, identity, transformation is not relevant to a discussion of the inter-relationship between genotype and phenotype. If it is, it's much more complex and distributed across the genome than we can track at the moment. We agree-XX is the typical genotype of a woman.  Or we can say the absence of the Y.  Or we can say the absence of expression of the SRY region of the Y.  So, what is it about the expression of the XX genotype that defines a woman (or the other way around if you got SRY going on)? We had the ability to get pregnant.  Fails easily as a definition.  Some females are sterile.  Post menopausal women are still female. So you go, OK, birth gender, by which I'm guessing you mean some read out of the differentiation of sexual characteristics during development. Which ones-spell it out.  Your are just shifting the trait you want to hang your hat on. Try that definition with your wife instead.  Might not get you much further.  She might say "Oh, so now we have quantifiable elements in our definition".  Let's talk about measuring manhood and where you fall on that distribution shall we.
> 
> Look, I don't give a rat's ass about the transgender swimmer thing or whatnot. The interesting part is genetics and fairness in sport.  Here's a different tact.  Take  your birth gender XYs and (to use your terminology) take a look at which genes are expressed (in reality, which variants of the genes are inherited and the levels to which they are expressed at different times in different  cells). Instead of quantifiable traits of "man" and "woman" take "talent" instead.  Humans have very little genetic diversity to begin with.  Sequence a million people-it's happening right now. Now, start building genetic correlates that are to some extent associated with the 95th percentile of a trait associated with talent.  How might that relate to fairness in sport?
> 
> Sure, people are going to go "gaslighting".  But that's only because I don't care about what you are aguing about and talking beyond the narrow blinders placed around the conversation.


I'll push a bit more. In the name of fairness in youth sports (pre or post puberty), should birth date matter - "age fluid"?


----------



## MicPaPa

met61 said:


> ...the beauty about Faith is...if you're right we end up in the same place...if you're wrong we don't.
> 
> ...no Jesuit scholars necessary.


And the beauty about America is their freedom to openly mock any religion, yet they "bravely" only mock Christianity. Must have to do with -- turning the other cheek versus removal of their empty heads from their yellow spines.


----------



## whatithink

MicPaPa said:


> I'll push a bit more. In the name of fairness in youth sports (pre or post puberty), should birth date matter - "age fluid"?


US soccer was pushing bio-banding as part of the DA program. As I recall, they brought in a guy from Southampton FC who had implemented it there. They even had some bio-band games, and late developers could play down a year.

The serious soccer programs develop talent and bio band when developing it. Coaches here tend to go for athletes and think they can make them soccer players - and yes, I've heard multiple A coaches, ECNL coaches etc. literally say that.

Clubs would never go for it obviously, and neither would parents.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Sure, I'll buy this on the basis of male and female relationships and the psychological differerences between the sexes.  But what we are talking about is biological males competing against biological females.  That's something you can't change.


I like that because it allows room for interesting and nebulous stuff about the differences between men and women. If it was all biology, it would be pretty boring.  

Second, IMO we've come a far piece on what we are talking about.  We are talking about inherent (literally) differences in phenotypic traits between the biological attributes of men and women that impact their ability to compete in sport. We can take that further.  Height, muscle mass, stuff like that.  With respect to genetics, it is more precise, and it is relevant to the larger relationship between genetics and fairness that I want to develop.

And we should  bring up the nurture part again.  I know, for a fact, that a U15 girls team playing at a high level can easily beat a U15 boys rec team. Because of better organization, because of skilled off the ball movement, because of accuracy, etc.  And anybody plunking down 5K a year for ECNL Surf or whatever it is should hope that is true.  And be proud of the performance. But the proverbial 10K hrs of training will never make the average muscle mass, for instance, of a female athlete be the same as the average for men.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

MicPaPa said:


> I'll push a bit more. In the name of fairness in youth sports (pre or post puberty), should birth date matter - "age fluid"?


Yes, it should.  So we have gender and age as arbiters of fairness in competition.  Any others come to mind?  Timing of puberty onset for instance? As I recall there is an entire chapter in the Outliers book discussing its effect on selectivity in athletics.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

whatithink said:


> US soccer was pushing bio-banding as part of the DA program. As I recall, they brought in a guy from Southampton FC who had implemented it there. They even had some bio-band games, and late developers could play down a year.
> 
> The serious soccer programs develop talent and bio band when developing it. Coaches here tend to go for athletes and think they can make them soccer players - and yes, I've heard multiple A coaches, ECNL coaches etc. literally say that.
> 
> Clubs would never go for it obviously, and neither would parents.


Yeah, this is exactly where I'm going.  Parents would not go for it.  Pay to play clubs would not go for it.  But developmental academies like the idea, for both concepts of development and less altruistic reasons (sounds like an easy way to split an A team from a B team to me).  But what if you could have a way to, imperfectly but with a measurable degree of success, sort out some of those traits even earlier?  Pre-sort them. Developmental programs with strong financial incentives would probably have a definite interest in that.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> And the beauty about America is their freedom to openly mock any religion, yet they "bravely" only mock Christianity. Must have to do with -- turning the other cheek versus removal of their empty heads from their yellow spines.


Only?


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yes, it should.  So we have gender and age as arbiters of fairness in competition.  Any others come to mind?  Timing of puberty onset for instance? As I recall there is an entire chapter in the Outliers book discussing its effect on selectivity in athletics.


How did this discussion get here?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Only?


Romulus and Remus might like a word.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> How did this discussion get here?


Confounding fairness in competition with a narrow scoping of biological determinism.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Romulus and Remus might like a word.


Or L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.


----------



## crush

*"Make sure you save a slice of that China Ca$h Pie for the Big Guy."  Grand Jury witness was asked yesterday, "Who is the Big Guy?"  Folks, we all got played with "Pay to play" when we were born until now and soon that game will be officially over.  Don't panic!!!  Watch the Water(s) and watch the arrests go down.  Life as you know it is over.  April showers is finally here.  Let it rain the TRUTH!!!!  *


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I agree.  Men and women's sports are A-OK by me. I'm saying putting forth genetics as the arbiter of fairness, as people are trying to do here because it seems binary and determinant, may well lead to some interesting situations in the not so distant future.


Only a small part of being a woman in our culture is the opportunity to compete in women's sports that were founded on the recognition that men and women are biologically distinct and that a general competition across the gender barrier is unfair to the point of being uninteresting.  There are some notable exceptions, of course, such as gymnastics, where top-level women outshine their male counterparts.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yeah, this is exactly where I'm going.  Parents would not go for it.  Pay to play clubs would not go for it.  But developmental academies like the idea, for both concepts of development and less altruistic reasons (sounds like an easy way to split an A team from a B team to me).  But what if you could have a way to, imperfectly but with a measurable degree of success, sort out some of those traits even earlier?  Pre-sort them. Developmental programs with strong financial incentives would probably have a definite interest in that.


You could maintain the rigid controls by birthdate as the foundation for competitive eligibility and also suggest to those outliers who are riding along happily due to being a few months older than their teammates that they might develop their skills and strength more readily by playing in a higher age group.  It used to be called "playing up".  

Or they could just wait until they get into high school or college where the age bands suddenly become 4 years instead of 1.  Is that Freshman really big enough/good enough to make the starting Varsity lineup?


----------



## dad4

whatithink said:


> US soccer was pushing bio-banding as part of the DA program. As I recall, they brought in a guy from Southampton FC who had implemented it there. They even had some bio-band games, and late developers could play down a year.
> 
> The serious soccer programs develop talent and bio band when developing it. Coaches here tend to go for athletes and think they can make them soccer players - and yes, I've heard multiple A coaches, ECNL coaches etc. literally say that.
> 
> Clubs would never go for it obviously, and neither would parents.


Regarding bio banding, parents won’t go for it unless you can explain it.

Birthdays are simple.  We understand them.  I can look at the birth certificate and tell you their age group.  So can anyone.  Easy.

Biobands are not simple.  You might have one definition for how to measure someone’s developmental age, but other people will want a different definition.  Very few of us can figure out our kids adjusted age.  Even if we can figure it out, it seems unstable.  Do they age up every time they have a growth spurt?  Maybe, maybe not.  

This is why biobands are useful only for someone like USSoccer or Southhampton.  If you need to evaluate 200 kids and the payoff is signing the next Mbappe, biobands can help, and they are worth the trouble.  If you need to evaluate 2,000,000 kids and the payoff is slightly fairer rec games, you’re not going to bother.

And, despite what parents want to believe, ECNL and GA have more in common with rec soccer than with Mbappe.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Regarding bio banding, parents won’t go for it unless you can explain it.


For some people, it can't be any harder than explaining what a woman is.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> US soccer was pushing bio-banding as part of the DA program. As I recall, they brought in a guy from Southampton FC who had implemented it there. They even had some bio-band games, and late developers could play down a year.
> 
> The serious soccer programs develop talent and bio band when developing it. Coaches here tend to go for athletes and think they can make them soccer players - and yes, I've heard multiple A coaches, ECNL coaches etc. literally say that.It
> 
> Clubs would never go for it obviously, and neither would parents.


It's actually a part of MLS Next as well.  They have a "late developer" program which allows you to play a couple players down, but it's rarely utilized by the clubs.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> For some people, it can't be any harder than explaining what a woman is.


I identify as a 35 year old.


----------



## crush

Here's the Truth fellas.  We all have some feminine and masculine in our genes.  All males and females have IT both ways.  It don't matter if your born with a penis or a vagina.  Most of us all have some sort of imbalance in these traits in our genes.  For example, some males like me have a strong and even sometimes over balance of the feminine traits.  Depending on how I feeling during the month, I can be quit the handful for my wife.  I am very strong masculine but also have all this empathy that I can;t control.  I feel things and cry sometimes, ok.....  I'm not on meds trust me, it's the chemicals in my brain that I sometimes can;t control.  Most men just don't understand.  Basically, I get emotional at times and I think emotionally a lot, which some would say I act like a woman.  I do and now I know why.  I have a pal named David.  He had two older bro's who played big time football in LA in the 80s.  Pops played football in the 60s as well and they all expected little bro to be the best of the family.  Well, David liked to be with his mom and cooking and playing dress up in dresses with his cousins.  His brothers and dad made fun of him ((that's being nice)) his whole life and he got hurt deeply.  Because of David's wounds from his father and bros, he wanted attention from men.  It goes a lot deeper then just attention, but he knew he didnt want that life style, but wanted a masculine type personality to be with and that is not easy to find.  Opposites do attract though and he met the love his life.  They fell in love, got married and they have two kids.  He married a tough military babe and she runs the house and David cleans the house and both our super stoked and in love and very happy


----------



## Emma

crush said:


> Here's the Truth fellas.  We all have some feminine and masculine in our genes.  All males and females have IT both ways.  It don't matter if your born with a penis or a vagina.  Most of us all have some sort of imbalance in these traits in our genes.  For example, some males like me have a strong and even sometimes over balance of the feminine traits.  Depending on how I feeling during the month, I can be quit the handful for my wife.  I am very strong masculine but also have all this empathy that I can;t control.  I feel things and cry sometimes, ok.....  I'm not on meds trust me, it's the chemicals in my brain that I sometimes can;t control.  Most men just don't understand.  Basically, I get emotional at times and I think emotionally a lot, which some would say I act like a woman.  I do and now I know why.  I have a pal named David.  He had two older bro's who played big time football in LA in the 80s.  Pops played football in the 60s as well and they all expected little bro to be the best of the family.  Well, David liked to be with his mom and cooking and playing dress up in dresses with his cousins.  His brothers and dad made fun of him ((that's being nice)) his whole life and he got hurt deeply.  Because of David's wounds from his father and bros, he wanted attention from men.  It goes a lot deeper then just attention, but he knew he didnt want that life style, but wanted a masculine type personality to be with and that is not easy to find.  Opposites do attract though and he met the love his life.  They fell in love, got married and they have two kids.  He married a tough military babe and she runs the house and David cleans the house and both our super stoked and in love and very happy


You forgot the part he's going to gay clubs and having affairs with men secretly.


----------



## crush

Emma said:


> You forgot the part he's going to gay clubs and having affairs with men secretly.


No, no and no he never "hooked" up, was only tempted to hook up with the married men.  In fact Emma, David told me that all the guys after him were all married, living a secret life.  I also have a friend named Mike.  He worked for a big corp company and had to travel every month to San Francisco to the big office and stay at hotel.  Well, his wife found some crap on his AMEX card and she did interrogation and was about to file for divorce.  Two purchases from Victoria Secret in SF had his wife all over his ass.  Mike was super good looking guy but he loved his wife so much.  She called me and asked me for advice.  She was judging him without letting him speak.  I told her to let him give his side of secrets at Victoria.  She called me and thanked because she was 100% wrong.  His wife called Victoria and found out these were super size panties and high heels for a very large lady.  The wife was stumped on the large size for women.  She felt less Jealous too because she was way smaller in the underwear sizes and already was like, "Mike likes big girls at work?"  The truth was, it was for Mike and his dress up fantasies on the road.  The wife called Mike's mom and she said it's true, that Mike likes to dress up and go out.  He likes to be with women only but wants the attention from men because men give it out all day.  They were able to get help and they stayed together until she passed a way a few years ago.  Both of these stories are true.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Regarding bio banding, parents won’t go for it unless you can explain it.
> 
> Birthdays are simple.  We understand them.  I can look at the birth certificate and tell you their age group.  So can anyone.  Easy.
> 
> Biobands are not simple.  You might have one definition for how to measure someone’s developmental age, but other people will want a different definition.  Very few of us can figure out our kids adjusted age.  Even if we can figure it out, it seems unstable.  Do they age up every time they have a growth spurt?  Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> This is why biobands are useful only for someone like USSoccer or Southhampton.  If you need to evaluate 200 kids and the payoff is signing the next Mbappe, biobands can help, and they are worth the trouble.  If you need to evaluate 2,000,000 kids and the payoff is slightly fairer rec games, you’re not going to bother.
> 
> And, despite what parents want to believe, ECNL and GA have more in common with rec soccer than with Mbappe.


...I am not sure you realize it, but you just nailed the whole ball game with one word..."definition." At the core of the game is power and/or money...whoever has the power subjectively defines or redefines the term(s). 

...in order to define or redefine the term(s), the term(s) must be subjective...as I've stated, they only need a kernel...this thread is full of fringe nuance and outlier attempts at exceptions to the Truth...as it was nicely put in an earlier post, "policy is designed around the exception, where it benefits the exception over the ordinary."

...Truth is objective and clearly defined...therefore, subjectivity does not exist in truth.. it is created.

...the birth certificate provides two key objective Truths, sex and birth date...yet we are supposed to believe it is just a piece of paper...thus, subjective.

...obviously, I don't know you personally...but I do believe there is more in common than not...it is just arrived at from different places.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Only?


Pretty much, although, you're welcome to prove me wrong - do Islam.


----------



## MicPaPa

crush said:


> Here's the Truth fellas.  We all have some feminine and masculine in our genes.  All males and females have IT both ways.  It don't matter if your born with a penis or a vagina.  Most of us all have some sort of imbalance in these traits in our genes.  For example, some males like me have a strong and even sometimes over balance of the feminine traits.  Depending on how I feeling during the month, I can be quit the handful for my wife.  I am very strong masculine but also have all this empathy that I can;t control.  I feel things and cry sometimes, ok.....  I'm not on meds trust me, it's the chemicals in my brain that I sometimes can;t control.  Most men just don't understand.  Basically, I get emotional at times and I think emotionally a lot, which some would say I act like a woman.  I do and now I know why.  I have a pal named David.  He had two older bro's who played big time football in LA in the 80s.  Pops played football in the 60s as well and they all expected little bro to be the best of the family.  Well, David liked to be with his mom and cooking and playing dress up in dresses with his cousins.  His brothers and dad made fun of him ((that's being nice)) his whole life and he got hurt deeply.  Because of David's wounds from his father and bros, he wanted attention from men.  It goes a lot deeper then just attention, but he knew he didnt want that life style, but wanted a masculine type personality to be with and that is not easy to find.  Opposites do attract though and he met the love his life.  They fell in love, got married and they have two kids.  He married a tough military babe and she runs the house and David cleans the house and both our super stoked and in love and very happy


My feminine side is a lesbian, there's that.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I identify as a 35 year old.


I'm going with 67 and the full Social Security payout - sure beats a women's championship spot and trophy.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> My feminine side is a lesbian, there's that.


My masculine side loves the female ((my wife of 25 years)) so I choose the man loves and chases the woman kind of life.  I love the hunt and foreplay with my Queen Bee and so glad I am the way I am and I like what I really like.  That is why opposites attract so much more then going after the same thing.


----------



## GoldenGate

MicPaPa said:


> My feminine side is a lesbian, there's that.


Actually, you are 100% whiny snowflake.  Scared of trans women, scared of teenage girl "bullies", scared of liberals, scared of brown people.  We're going to take your sports, your guns, your churches and send you and your family to concentration camps where we make your kids to go trans.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> That's so close! that it's not worth trying to correct you.
> 
> Consider this -- the X chromosome part is female.  All humans have an X chromosome.
> 
> That is also not entirely correct, but it's closer than your opinion.
> 
> And what about XYY, XXX, and XXY people?  Man or woman?





GoldenGate said:


> So now the Bible is the sports rulebook?  I thought it was the dictionary?





espola said:


> Are you proposing that "can get pregnant" is a proper definition of woman?





GoldenGate said:


> Gays, trans and brown people are all coming for your children.





espola said:


> A difficult question for serious Jesuit scientists is the sex-chromosome genotype of Jesus.  Since her only biological parent was her mother, one must assume it was XX since there was no one to contribute a Y.  That makes her a woman, right?
> 
> Unless,  of course, Mary was one of those rare trisomy individuals.





espola said:


> Even phenotypes can be ambiguous.  There have been a few cases recorded where the newborn was genotypically male (XY) but due to a congenital malformation there were none of the expected male organs visible.  Parents had to decide whether to raise the child as a male with no external genitals, or allow surgery to convert the child to a sterile female, with appropriate hormone treatment during the time that puberty was expected.




Biology 101:

Man = XY The sperm carrier.
Woman = XX The ovum carrier.

This process only works ONE way.
You cannot cosmetically construct and duplicate what
God created. 

You can Philidelphia Lawyer all you want.......

There is only one process.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> To repeat what I have said before, trans women who have had the physical advantage of passing through puberty as males should not be competing in women's sporting events no matter what their current testosterone levels are.  Otherwise, what is the point of women's sports in the first place?


The Lying Adam Espola Schiff in action.

The TRUTH forced your position.


----------



## Emma

crush said:


> No, no and no he never "hooked" up, was only tempted to hook up with the married men.  In fact Emma, David told me that all the guys after him were all married, living a secret life.  I also have a friend named Mike.  He worked for a big corp company and had to travel every month to San Francisco to the big office and stay at hotel.  Well, his wife found some crap on his AMEX card and she did interrogation and was about to file for divorce.  Two purchases from Victoria Secret in SF had his wife all over his ass.  Mike was super good looking guy but he loved his wife so much.  She called me and asked me for advice.  She was judging him without letting him speak.  I told her to let him give his side of secrets at Victoria.  She called me and thanked because she was 100% wrong.  His wife called Victoria and found out these were super size panties and high heels for a very large lady.  The wife was stumped on the large size for women.  She felt less Jealous too because she was way smaller in the underwear sizes and already was like, "Mike likes big girls at work?"  The truth was, it was for Mike and his dress up fantasies on the road.  The wife called Mike's mom and she said it's true, that Mike likes to dress up and go out.  He likes to be with women only but wants the attention from men because men give it out all day.  They were able to get help and they stayed together until she passed a way a few years ago.  Both of these stories are true.


He dressed up like a woman, with nice VS undergarments too, but it was just to flirt with men, not get physical with them.   Wonder why he needed the VS undergarments.  How do the men Mike is flirting with know Mike is wearing VS undergarments?  Whatever works for you Crush.


----------



## espola

Emma said:


> He dressed up like a woman, with nice VS undergarments too, but it was just to flirt with men, not get physical with them.   Wonder why he needed the VS undergarments.  How do the men Mike is flirting with know Mike is wearing VS undergarments?  Whatever works for you Crush.


The craziest of crush's fables is the number of times he has promised that he is not going to post here anymore.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Most of us all have some sort of imbalance in these traits in our genes.


Not imbalance.  Just the complexity of being human.  If you learn to love the craziness of it, it all works out.  So, for me, when it comes to Biblical millstones Isaiah 47 > Matthew 18.  Isaiah 47 is some wild poetic stuff.


----------



## crush

Emma said:


> He dressed up like a woman, with nice VS undergarments too, but it was just to flirt with men, not get physical with them.   Wonder why he needed the VS undergarments.  How do the men Mike is flirting with know Mike is wearing VS undergarments?  Whatever works for you Crush.


I didn't ask mike for the steamy details and it's none of my business Emma.  He told his wife he likes to dress up after he got caught with VS on his CC. What works for me is being honest and up front about secrets before getting caught.  I don't care what two married people do and play but I think they both should agree on the games in and outside of the bedroom.  Let's not judge others is my point but look for being honest, open and transparent.  Have a great day and get ready for true freedom   You will be able to be you and that is all one should want.  You can be you and I will be me and Mike will be Mike and David and his wife will be what they want.  Its the lying that makes people lie more and hide in the darkness.  Men love darkness and fear the light and fear their deeds will be exposed.  I say expose them and seek help if you need it.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Not imbalance.  Just the complexity of being human.  If you learn to love the craziness of it, it all works out.  So, for me, when it comes to Biblical millstones Isaiah 47 > Matthew 18.  Isaiah 47 is some wild poetic stuff.


I scored 16/4 on the M vs F scale a few months.  Meaning I am 80% more feminine then masculine.  Outside I am a full man and I love being a man, let me tell you and my wife loves that I love being man.  Inside however, I am more of women.  I was raised by an amazing women who fostered 8 kids after having four of her own and she taught me cooking, sewing, cleaning the house and so much more.  My life coach told me months ago that I needed to be more of a balance of the M vs F and not be such a bitch at home.  I'm serious, I used to have a hissy fit if the house was not clean.  My wife would go full masculine on me and stop talking to me when i would get all huff and puff.  We both went the opposite of our physical nature when these things happened.  I am more like 12/8 now with more improvements to come.  My wife can stay in the feminine way more and open herself up to me always because I am learning to be a better man and also have the patience and softness of a women.  My wife digs it and I love it more this way.  Peace out Evil


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Regarding bio banding, parents won’t go for it unless you can explain it.
> 
> Birthdays are simple.  We understand them.  I can look at the birth certificate and tell you their age group.  So can anyone.  Easy.
> 
> Biobands are not simple.  You might have one definition for how to measure someone’s developmental age, but other people will want a different definition.  Very few of us can figure out our kids adjusted age.  Even if we can figure it out, it seems unstable.  Do they age up every time they have a growth spurt?  Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> This is why biobands are useful only for someone like USSoccer or Southhampton.  If you need to evaluate 200 kids and the payoff is signing the next Mbappe, biobands can help, and they are worth the trouble.  If you need to evaluate 2,000,000 kids and the payoff is slightly fairer rec games, you’re not going to bother.
> 
> And, despite what parents want to believe, ECNL and GA have more in common with rec soccer than with Mbappe.


Yeah, probably the most accurate definition of what rec soccer is or is not probably has to do with who is writing the checks. 

But on the bio banding.  The obstensive reason behind it-timing of puberty onset-is very likely just as much determined by genetic constitution as the physiological traits we got to for why it is unfair for women, on average, to compete against men, on average.  So do you see bio banding as relating to fairness in who competes against whom?  Or is it somehow different because it's getting more granular, more complicated, impacting a different number of athletes?


----------



## Emma

crush said:


> I didn't ask mike for the steamy details and it's none of my business Emma.  He told his wife he likes to dress up after he got caught with VS on his CC. What works for me is being honest and up front about secrets before getting caught.  I don't care what two married people do and play but I think they both should agree.  Let's not judge others is my point but look for being honest, open and transparent.  Have a great day and get ready for true freedom   You will be able to be you and that is all one should want.  You can be you and I will be me and Mike will be Mike and David and his wife will be what they want.  Its the lying that makes people lie more and hide in the darkness.  Men love darkness and fear the light and fear their deeds will be exposed.  I say expose them and seek help if you need it.


So many contradictions above.  

If you, Mike's wife, and Mike's mom are happy with his explanation and don't want to question it further, that's fine as this situation doesn't affect anyone beyond Mike and his wife.  

No judgment or a care in the world about Mike's situation from me Crush.  

My mind couldn't help but think logically out loud since you threw that scenario on my computer screen to entertain me.


----------



## cheer4kids

espola said:


> How did this discussion get here?


It only took 14K forum replies


----------



## Desert Hound

In the end the arguments boil down to this. 

One small but vocal side thinks it is OK to discriminate against women by letting men compete against them.

The other side knows that there is a reason we created women's sports, and that it is a travesty to allow men to compete in those women's sports.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> Pretty much, although, you're welcome to prove me wrong - do Islam.


Same stories different angles. Religion is there to give people hope and something to aspire to, nothing wrong with that. It’s the people that screw it all up, like with everything.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are 100% whiny snowflake.  Scared of trans women, scared of teenage girl "bullies", scared of liberals, scared of brown people.  We're going to take your sports, your guns, your churches and send you and your family to concentration camps where we make your kids to go trans.


. . . and lock them in a room that plays Rachel Maddow on a loop.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> Pretty much, although, you're welcome to prove me wrong - do Islam.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> . . . and lock them in a room that plays Rachel Maddow on a loop.


That's what I listen to, to fall asleep at night.  Want to torture someone put Joy Behar on loop, just remove the knives from the room.  IQ test them after a week and see if they can hit double digits.


----------



## whatithink

dad4 said:


> Regarding bio banding, parents won’t go for it unless you can explain it.
> 
> Birthdays are simple.  We understand them.  I can look at the birth certificate and tell you their age group.  So can anyone.  Easy.
> 
> Biobands are not simple.  You might have one definition for how to measure someone’s developmental age, but other people will want a different definition.  Very few of us can figure out our kids adjusted age.  Even if we can figure it out, it seems unstable.  Do they age up every time they have a growth spurt?  Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> This is why biobands are useful only for someone like USSoccer or Southhampton.  If you need to evaluate 200 kids and the payoff is signing the next Mbappe, biobands can help, and they are worth the trouble.  If you need to evaluate 2,000,000 kids and the payoff is slightly fairer rec games, you’re not going to bother.
> 
> And, despite what parents want to believe, ECNL and GA have more in common with rec soccer than with Mbappe.


I agree and wasn't advocating for it, just replying to the comment. Gareth Bale was a poster child for it at Southampton as he developed physically very late, but they factored that in and persisted with him (other academies would probably have dropped him). 

I do know of one kid in the DA that bio banded and played down, he's now playing in Germany (low level but still v. young) ... super player too.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are 100% whiny snowflake.  Scared of trans women, scared of teenage girl "bullies", scared of liberals, scared of brown people.  We're going to take your sports, your guns, your churches and send you and your family to concentration camps where we make your kids to go trans.


Your small mind is amazing.  I know plenty of liberals and brown people who carry and go to church.  Plenty of liberal and brown people who just dig fair competition.  But nice job again throwing crap up against the wall to see  what drips back down on you.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> . . . and lock them in a room that plays Rachel Maddow on a loop.


too bad she got tired of her own schtick...


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


>


Proves my point, well done.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are 100% whiny snowflake.  Scared of trans women, scared of teenage girl "bullies", scared of liberals, scared of brown people.  We're going to take your sports, your guns, your churches and send you and your family to concentration camps where we make your kids to go trans.


Oddly, you left out the looney he/she pronoun nonsense you want forced upon everyone - you know, ironically the labels you continue to violate yourself.

Shall I provide the post #'s? LOL!


----------



## whatithink

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yeah, this is exactly where I'm going.  Parents would not go for it.  Pay to play clubs would not go for it.  But developmental academies like the idea, for both concepts of development and less altruistic reasons (sounds like an easy way to split an A team from a B team to me).  But what if you could have a way to, imperfectly but with a measurable degree of success, sort out some of those traits even earlier?  Pre-sort them. Developmental programs with strong financial incentives would probably have a definite interest in that.


There's a lot of analytics in the big soccer programs these days, but the entry price is that a kid has to have ability. From that point onward they will use anything and everything to develop, manage & measure, but continued development of ability remains the price of entry or price to remain. They only have so many spots and so much patience - Chelsea released/sold Salah, De Bruyn & Lukaku for example.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> That's what I listen to, to fall asleep at night.  Want to torture someone put Joy Behar on loop, just remove the knives from the room.  IQ test them after a week and see if they can hit double digits.


Interesting, given the direction this thread has gone. Your choice of a presumably popular predominantly women's TV show is bound to trigger (not my rules), or maybe not, as there is often selective outrage towards line straddlers and the occasional "good game" butt slappers - entertaining nonetheless.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> In the end the arguments boil down to this.
> 
> One small but vocal side thinks it is OK to discriminate against women by letting men compete against them.
> 
> The other side knows that there is a reason we created women's sports, and that it is a travesty to allow men to compete in those women's sports.


All of you are really going to love the title "Mx." to replace "Mr." and "Ms."


----------



## crush

$9 a gal for gas up in Big Sur.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> All of you are really going to love the title "Mx." to replace "Mr." and "Ms."


Not as much as I love the 2A. You loons are great for business.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Actually, you are 100% whiny snowflake.  Scared of trans women, scared of teenage girl "bullies", scared of liberals, scared of brown people.  We're going to take your sports, your guns, your churches and send you and your family to concentration camps where we make your kids to go trans.


If I'm not mistaken, I believe the guns must be first, or your wacky dream world falls apart.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> All of you are really going to love the title "Mx." to replace "Mr." and "Ms."


Why do you want to discriminate against women?

What exactly your justification for allowing men to compete and win vs women?

You are a misogynist?

Why are you so anti women that leads you to think it is ok for men to take spots and compete vs women?


----------



## dad4

GoldenGate said:


> All of you are really going to love the title "Mx." to replace "Mr." and "Ms."


Except most people won't ever use "Mx.".  Just like most Latinos don't say "Latinx".

The majority of the country has no interest in denying their own gender.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

whatithink said:


> There's a lot of analytics in the big soccer programs these days, but the entry price is that a kid has to have ability. From that point onward they will use anything and everything to develop, manage & measure, but continued development of ability remains the price of entry or price to remain. They only have so many spots and so much patience - Chelsea released/sold Salah, De Bruyn & Lukaku for example.


Even with improved biometrics, my impression is that the ability to identify the future Manes of the world at 8-12 years old, or whatever age they start getting recruited into Ajax, La Masia, etc. is still pretty limited.  I don't know if that's the case or not, but seems like it would be very hard to predict for many reasons.  Given the financial incentive to "guess right" I could imagine academies like that are looking hard at what might be the best set of predictors.


----------



## crush

"Please have office keys made for me, Uncle Jimbo, Pops ((The Big Guy)) and Mr. Dong."


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Interesting, given the direction this thread has gone. Your choice of a presumably popular predominantly women's TV show is bound to trigger (not my rules), or maybe not, as there is often selective outrage towards line straddlers and the occasional "good game" butt slappers - entertaining nonetheless.


Ironically the most likely to be triggered have lost the moral high ground when it comes to the defense of women.  Women only seem important to them when they can be used as pawns to further their narrative.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Ironically the most likely to be triggered have lost the moral high ground when it comes to the defense of women.  Women only seem important to them when they can be used as pawns to further their narrative.


Are you a Republican? The GOP is the home of token representation (aka using people to further their narrative) . . . “Where’s my African American?”. So if you are, which you certainly represent as, your above statement is a fine example of projected hypocrisy.


----------



## crush

Some immature little men keep playing the, "Are you a R or D?  Are you black or white?  Are you a man or a mouse?  My gosh.  How about, "Were all Americans first and we need to help each other first, no matter what group you belong to."  Are you Jabbed?  Are you for Transgenderism or not?  Are you for Ukraine?  Are you anti Jabber?  Look at how the game of "Us vs Them" has turned out.  Not the way we should and it should always be a Both and kind of world.  I told you all that those who were first and cheated, will now be last and the last will be first.  Are you follower of Christ?  Will you kneel with Neal and for Neal?  Who will you kneel for?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you a Republican? The GOP is the home of token representation (aka using people to further their narrative) . . . “Where’s my African American?”. So if you are, which you certainly represent as, your above statement is a fine example of projected hypocrisy.


There you go again...kneeling at the alter of whataboutism.  Which African Americans are you exactly talking about?


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you a Republican? The GOP is the home of token representation (aka using people to further their narrative) . . . “Where’s my African American?”. So if you are, which you certainly represent as, your above statement is a fine example of projected hypocrisy.



April 7, 2022 Thursday.....

Once again the low IQ Husker Du 
further solidifies his Racist/Bigot status on this forum 
and surely in public.

You spend a Godawful amount of time on this forum.
Get a life.


----------



## crush

By the way my friends, pay to play comes in all different kinds of game sets and some pay to play by the rules and some pay to break the rules.  Some pay with their life and some pay with their time.  Regardless of how you played and where you rank in this old pay to play system of yester year, you will need to change the way you make it on this great earth moving forward.  The game was rigged, dah!!!  We have been lied to you guys.  Lied about so much.  Totally brainwashed. Life as you were sold and taught was a big fat lie and you must now see that.  No Mr. Norm, were not going back to the way things were and back to normal.  Buckle up folks and get ready for the light to shine in all the dark places.  Coackroaches will run and blame the other coackroaches for all the ills on mankind.  They will play the blame game.  My advice for the rest of us is to, Forgive everyone EVERYTHING they have ever done to you that harmed you.  Forgive yourself EVERYTHING you ever did to hurt or harm others.  The human race ((all the R's and all the D's and everyone in between)) need's one big healing hug from each other, not endless wars of hate, destruction and death.  I see that one side has wanted to kills babies before their hatched and loves to go to war with other people's children and cause division between the humans.  How sad I have pals who want to send American Troops into Ukraine to clean up the mess that some families started long ago.  Crime families were real you guys


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> There you go again...kneeling at the alter of whataboutism.  Which African Americans are you exactly talking about?


 “Where’s my African American?” is a quote from t at one of his rallies.  He acts at times as if he doesn't realize he is live and there will be no editing process before broadcast, the way they handled things for him during his reality TV days.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you a Republican? The GOP is the home of token representation (aka using people to further their narrative) . . . “Where’s my African American?”. So if you are, which you certainly represent as, your above statement is a fine example of projected hypocrisy.


Coming from the person that thought it was funny that someone called GraceT the "C" word.  Got it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Coming from the person that thought it was funny that someone called GraceT the "C" word.  Got it.


Making stuff up are we? Are you related to multi?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> “Where’s my African American?” is a quote from t at one of his rallies.  He acts at times as if he doesn't realize he is live and there will be no editing process before broadcast, the way they handled things for him during his reality TV days.


Keeping the stupid and willfully ignorant informed in here is a continuous exercise . . . then they feign ignorance once again a while later. They want to not know.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Making stuff up are we? Are you related to multi?


Whenever I see someone telling a lie about me, that just confirms to me that he is a liar.  And then I pass that fact along so others will know as well.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Making stuff up are we? Are you related to multi?


Are you denying that when someone called GraceT that name that you responded with a laughing emoji?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Coming from the person that thought it was funny that someone called GraceT the "C" word.  Got it.


That alias was NotInTheFace, and it appears to have been "retired". I understand how you can make that mistake can be made. As I have stated before, it's either the same person or a group of people so focused on the same talking points and similarly misanthropic that you can't tell them apart. "They" are absolutely 1-dimensional, and as @MicPaPa observes, "circle-jerk" in their nature.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> That alias was NotInTheFace, and it appears to have been "retired". I understand how you can make that mistake can be made. As I have stated before, it's either the same person or a group of people so focused on the same talking points and similarly misanthropic that you can't tell them apart. "They" are absolutely 1-dimensional, and as @MicPaPa observes, "circle-jerk" in their nature.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's who called GraceT that name in a post and Husker replied with a laughing emoji.  If I'm wrong I will admit to it.  But I'm fairly certain about it, although I identify as a 35 year old and act like an 18 year old, my memory might be that of a 75 year old.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> That alias was NotInTheFace, and it appears to have been "retired". I understand how you can make that mistake can be made. As I have stated before, it's either the same person or a group of people so focused on the same talking points and similarly misanthropic that you can't tell them apart. "They" are absolutely 1-dimensional, and as @MicPaPa observes, "circle-jerk" in their nature.


Excellent work detective......lol.  I got some intel a week ago out at Silver Lakes that a few avatars are shared by many who beliebe the same lies.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's who called GraceT that name in a post and Husker replied with a laughing emoji.  If I'm wrong I will admit to it.  But I'm fairly certain about it, although I identify as a 35 year old and act like an 18 year old, my memory might be that of a 75 year old.


Speaking of @Grace T. , any idea where she has been?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's who called GraceT that name in a post and Husker replied with a laughing emoji.  If I'm wrong I will admit to it.  But I'm fairly certain about it, although I identify as a 35 year old and act like an 18 year old, my memory might be that of a 75 year old.


Imagine that, one of the woke warriors laughing at women being called the "c" word. The "woke" wouldn't even claim him. It's just a convenient platform for a shallow thinking misanthrope to use as an excuse for his/her/they anger.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Speaking of @Grace T. , any idea where she has been?


She probably did what we should all do and get the hell out of Dodge.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> Speaking of @Grace T. , any idea where she has been?


A while back she basically stated this thread had become irrelevant due to COVID being over. She has posted her a few times since then, but not as regularly and not very recently. I saw she posted in the "non-rabbit hole" threads a few times more recently. I attempt to observe a limit of one rabbit hole thread at a time. When this one "ends", I may just make it zero.


----------



## Grace T.

MicPaPa said:


> Speaking of @Grace T. , any idea where she has been?


I've been on vacay but have been pretty much done with this thread for a month or so.  The COVID emergency is over since that SNL skit and barring a super new variant it's going to play out in a way that makes no one happy.  Team reason essentially won most of the argument.

Mexico opened my eyes as to how this is playing out...lot's of security theatre there: masks, still scrubbing down, temp checks, but everyone pretty much thinks the regs are stupid and don't do anything.  It's like the TSA.  Lots of the infrastructure like distancing markers remains in place and some is actually permanent because they just assume the govt will bring back regulations the next time a killer flu surfaces.

Essentially in the immediate future no one is going to be happy.  We aren't going to be doing hard core containment measures or mass vaccination mandates.  The offices won't be going back to 100 percent capacity any time soon (too much competition from remote friendly employers....which means Manhattan in particular is in for a world of hurt).  Mask mandates will pop up in blue cities from time to time if cases rise.  They'll be stupid nonsensical rules like toddlers masking while adults can cram NY restaurants.  10 percent or so of the population will remain fearful and the media will periodically pump up a panic.  Eventually things will fizzle back to "normal" but it's going to take quite a bit of time to ease back.  How quickly in turn depends on the elections at the end of the year


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I've been on vacay but have been pretty much done with this thread for a month or so.  The COVID emergency is over since that SNL skit and barring a super new variant it's going to play out in a way that makes no one happy.  Team reason essentially won most of the argument.
> 
> Mexico opened my eyes as to how this is playing out...lot's of security theatre there: masks, still scrubbing down, temp checks, but everyone pretty much thinks the regs are stupid and don't do anything.  It's like the TSA.  Lots of the infrastructure like distancing markers remains in place and some is actually permanent because they just assume the govt will bring back regulations the next time a killer flu surfaces.
> 
> Essentially in the immediate future no one is going to be happy.  We aren't going to be doing hard core containment measures or mass vaccination mandates.  The offices won't be going back to 100 percent capacity any time soon (too much competition from remote friendly employers....which means Manhattan in particular is in for a world of hurt).  Mask mandates will pop up in blue cities from time to time if cases rise.  They'll be stupid nonsensical rules like toddlers masking while adults can cram NY restaurants.  10 percent or so of the population will remain fearful and the media will periodically pump up a panic.  Eventually things will fizzle back to "normal" but it's going to take quite a bit of time to ease back.  How quickly in turn depends on the elections at the end of the year


Saying "the emergency is over" ignores the hard fact that the current weekly count of new cases is just about where it was 2 years ago.









						Covid Trends
					

Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.




					aatishb.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Saying "the emergency is over" ignores the hard fact that the current weekly count of new cases is just about where it was 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Trends
> 
> 
> Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aatishb.com


Did you miss the part where she said, "10 percent or so of the population will remain fearful and the media will periodically pump up a panic."?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you miss the part where she said, "10 percent or so of the population will remain fearful and the media will periodically pump up a panic."?


That is consistent with her messaging throughout this whole mess.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> A while back she basically stated this thread had become irrelevant due to COVID being over. She has posted her a few times since then, but not as regularly and not very recently. I saw she posted in the "non-rabbit hole" threads a few times more recently. I attempt to observe a limit of one rabbit hole thread at a time. When this one "ends", I may just make it zero.


I took 30 days off and it was really good for me.  It's super addicting and I love the banter back and forth.  I can't wait to see some of these avatars eat some crow and maybe a few will have some humbie pie and admit how off they have been on everything the last 6 years.  Our poor country is so divided.  It trips me out.  I bet $100 you and I could meet up for a bro date and get along and laugh all this off with some shots and some other drinks?  Is that true or not bro?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Whenever I see someone telling a lie about me, that just confirms to me that he is a liar.  And then I pass that fact along so others will know as well.



thank you for your service


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The COVID emergency is over since that SNL skit and barring a super new variant it's going to play out in a way that makes no one happy.


Hi Grace T.  I missed you.  According to a Retired General I know, their will be a new virus that will scare the crap out of the people before the mid-terms.  The looks of the beat down is so bad they will find a way not to have any election.  The voice of reason ((the truth)) will always win.  I love you always


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Are you denying that when someone called GraceT that name that you responded with a laughing emoji?


As far as I know I never saw that post. I don’t agree with Grace but would never condone that kind of language. I do speed read most posts so if I put a “laugh” emoji on that post that was grievous error and apologize to Grace profusely.
I have told posters on “my side of the aisle” (or should that be isle in this partitioned off enclave?) when I thought they went too far and have NEVER seen that from anyone on your end of things. Just say’n.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Saying "the emergency is over" ignores the hard fact that the current weekly count of new cases is just about where it was 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Trends
> 
> 
> Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aatishb.com


...the hard fact is the political science changed.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> As far as I know I never saw that post. I don’t agree with Grace but would never condone that kind of language. I do speed read most posts so if I put a “laugh” emoji on that post that was grievous error and apologize to Grace profusely.
> I have told posters on “my side of the aisle” (or should that be isle in this partitioned off enclave?) when I thought they went too far and have NEVER seen that from anyone on your end of things. Just say’n.


I forgive you Husker.  Please forgive me if I speed read past some of your posts.  We battled and did some back and forth bullying and that was wrong.  I "laugh" all the time.  Let's be better so we can build a better America for our kids and grand kids.  I love you and forgive you, ok.  Let's forgive each other and strive for a better State and country.  America First, jabbed or not jabbed, agree?


----------



## crush

Jab News:  *Maine Sen. Susan Collins tests positive for COVID-19, is experiencing 'mild symptoms'*

This is weird.  So many Celebs and Politicians told us all to get the jab and now so many are getting Covid.  Yes, some Mild, but others not so lucky.  Some have to retire early from sports because of bad hearts and blood clots.  Some have died   Some just come down with mild symptoms.  I pray for everyone that got the jab.  I pray for all those who got booster.  I pray for those who are thinking of doing all of it.  I also pray for those who had the courage under loss of income, loss of scholarship or play time and just being excluded from all that life has to offer us all.  I pray for us all, the good, bad and ugly in us all.   We need to pray to our higher source and not place blame on either side.  I pray for Susan and I hope she get's well soon.  I know Adam just came down with Covid as well.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Saying "the emergency is over" ignores the hard fact that the current weekly count of new cases is just about where it was 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Trends
> 
> 
> Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aatishb.com


is there still an emergency?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> is there still an emergency?


Yes, the mid terms.


----------



## crush

I think I got Covid today you guys.  I was at the beach with my wife and it was hot.  I was walking to my car and I'm tired and i have a headache.    My body is aching and just have aches.  I sure hope I don;t get the runs.......


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Saying "the emergency is over" ignores the hard fact that the current weekly count of new cases is just about where it was 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Trends
> 
> 
> Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aatishb.com


Case counts are still high.  More to the point, hospitalizations and deaths are lower but stable.

Still around 500 deaths per day.  But most people have run out of energy for efforts to reduce it.   If it stays like this, it approximates a permanent bad flu season.   Worse than that if we get a spike every winter.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> is there still an emergency?


For Nancy there is, she’s positive.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> For Nancy there is, she’s positive.


Right after she kissed Joe with no mask on.  All these people getting Covid is strange, no?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> For Nancy there is, she’s positive.


I wish her well - I'm sure they will throw the kitchen sink at it, if required.  Maybe even slide in some de-wormer, just in case it works...won't hurt, but may work.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> I wish her well - I'm sure they will throw the kitchen sink at it, if required.  Maybe even slide in some de-wormer, just in case it works...won't hurt, but may work.


Well my understanding is as soon as she tested positive she ran to the plastic surgeon again. She should be an advertisement related to at some point you have had too many.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> I took 30 days off and it was really good for me.  It's super addicting and I love the banter back and forth.  I can't wait to see some of these avatars eat some crow and maybe a few will have some humbie pie and admit how off they have been on everything the last 6 years.  Our poor country is so divided.  It trips me out.  I bet $100 you and I could meet up for a bro date and get along and laugh all this off with some shots and some other drinks?  Is that true or not bro?


I have no problem with you, @crush. Disagreeing is not an issue as long as I see someone as authentic.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> As far as I know I never saw that post. I don’t agree with Grace but would never condone that kind of language. I do speed read most posts so if I put a “laugh” emoji on that post that was grievous error and apologize to Grace profusely.
> I have told posters on “my side of the aisle” (or should that be isle in this partitioned off enclave?) when I thought they went too far and have NEVER seen that from anyone on your end of things. Just say’n.


Then I offer my apology.  Sorry if I misstated what you did. My bad and I take you at your word.  

As to your other point, while I certainly lean right on a lot of issues (or more so have just been vocal on how devastating the left's policies have been),  I don't consider myself to be on an "end" even though I'm often been mischaracterized as such.  I try to take issues on a case by case basis and don't follow a playbook, narrative or talking points.  I'm not on anyone's team.  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, anti-Trump, pro-LGBTQ, pro business and pro free speech but those are immaterial to being PRO CHILDREN.  Some have called me a fence sitter which I take as a badge of honor.  I personally don't want to step in any shit on either side.

I suspect that if we all met face-to-face odds are probably good that I'd prefer to hangout with you than some you consider to be on my "end".


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Then I offer my apology.  Sorry if I misstated what you did. My bad and I take you at your word.
> 
> As to your other point, while I certainly lean right on a lot of issues (or more so have just been vocal on how devastating the left's policies have been),  I don't consider myself to be on an "end" even though I'm often been mischaracterized as such.  I try to take issues on a case by case basis and don't follow a playbook, narrative or talking points.  I'm not on anyone's team.  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, anti-Trump, pro-LGBTQ, pro business and pro free speech but those are immaterial to being PRO CHILDREN.  Some have called me a fence sitter which I take as a badge of honor.  I personally don't want to step in any shit on either side.
> 
> I suspect that if we all met face-to-face odds are probably good that I'd prefer to hangout with you than some you consider to be on my "end".


I good man you are and yes, one who stays on the fence.  I think you will be wrong about t.  I love that you care about the kids and that will get you on the right side of the fence.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Then I offer my apology.  Sorry if I misstated what you did. My bad and I take you at your word.
> 
> As to your other point, while I certainly lean right on a lot of issues (or more so have just been vocal on how devastating the left's policies have been),  I don't consider myself to be on an "end" even though I'm often been mischaracterized as such.  I try to take issues on a case by case basis and don't follow a playbook, narrative or talking points.  I'm not on anyone's team.  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, anti-Trump, pro-LGBTQ, pro business and pro free speech but those are immaterial to being PRO CHILDREN.  Some have called me a fence sitter which I take as a badge of honor.  I personally don't want to step in any shit on either side.
> 
> I suspect that if we all met face-to-face odds are probably good that I'd prefer to hangout with you than some you consider to be on my "end".


In real life I get along with most everyone. I have lost friends over trumpism and basically QAnon type thinking (some of them actually scare me with their new found extremism). One can’t reason with that type thinking. 
If I miss read you I am sorry.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I wish her well - I'm sure they will throw the kitchen sink at it, if required.  Maybe even slide in some de-wormer, just in case it works...won't hurt, but may work.


"Won't hurt" may not be true.  









						People Hospitalized After Taking Animal Drug Ivermectin for COVID
					

People using the medicine -- typically for horses and cattle -- prompted a spike in calls to poison control centers across the country.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> "Won't hurt" may not be true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People Hospitalized After Taking Animal Drug Ivermectin for COVID
> 
> 
> People using the medicine -- typically for horses and cattle -- prompted a spike in calls to poison control centers across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


If you've ever watched a room full of 17 year olds try to solve basic arithmetic problems, this is is no surprise.   We are not a people who should buy bulk veterinary medicine and compute our own dosage.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> In real life I get along with most everyone. I have lost friends over trumpism and basically QAnon type thinking (some of *them actually scare me *with their new found extremism). One can’t reason with that type thinking.
> If I miss read you I am sorry.


Ah, how sweet you both said sorry to each other.  Watfly sits on the board of fence sitters.....lol.  I love you both.  I get along with everyone except those who bullied others to get the jab or fired someone over it and then that person died.  Besides that, i dont care who you vote for.  We all need to crab those drinks so we can get a good look at each other some day .  Go USA and go America.  Husker, first time you admitted to being scared.  People cheat when they have that kind of fear. Fear is the first step of letting go.  Love will win and the both of you said sorry.  That is amazing.


----------



## crush

More jab news and advice to all of you at the forum.  Don't let fear rule your soul.

While the court case was ongoing, the first 91-pages of Pfizer documents released in November 2021 revealed that within the *first 90-days* after the Emergency Use Authorization approval of Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine, the company had already received *158,893 *adverse event reports and *42,086 *case reports including* 1,223* fatalities.  That is only 1% reporting.

These adverse reactions included* 25,957 *nervous system disorders, *17,283 *musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders, *14,096* gastrointestinal disorders, *1,972 *blood and lymphatic system disorders, and 1098 cardiac disorders.

Another tranche of documents released at the end of March revealed that *Pfizer had so many adverse events reports* in the initial three months after the vaccine rollout that they *hired 600 full-time employees** just to process the adverse event reports *of vaccine side effects, with a plan to hire another *1200 by June 2021.*


----------



## crush




----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> I've been on vacay but have been pretty much done with this thread for a month or so.  The COVID emergency is over since that SNL skit and barring a super new variant it's going to play out in a way that makes no one happy.  Team reason essentially won most of the argument.
> 
> Mexico opened my eyes as to how this is playing out...lot's of security theatre there: masks, still scrubbing down, temp checks, but everyone pretty much thinks the regs are stupid and don't do anything.  It's like the TSA.  Lots of the infrastructure like distancing markers remains in place and some is actually permanent because they just assume the govt will bring back regulations the next time a killer flu surfaces.
> 
> Essentially in the immediate future no one is going to be happy.  We aren't going to be doing hard core containment measures or mass vaccination mandates.  The offices won't be going back to 100 percent capacity any time soon (too much competition from remote friendly employers....which means Manhattan in particular is in for a world of hurt).  Mask mandates will pop up in blue cities from time to time if cases rise.  They'll be stupid nonsensical rules like toddlers masking while adults can cram NY restaurants.  10 percent or so of the population will remain fearful and the media will periodically pump up a panic.  Eventually things will fizzle back to "normal" but it's going to take quite a bit of time to ease back.  How quickly in turn depends on the elections at the end of the year


Great to hear from you and thanks for the update. Be well.


----------



## N00B

what-happened said:


> is there still an emergency?


Seems like it in Sacramento:



			https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article259424559.html


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Whenever I see someone telling a lie about me, that just confirms to me that he is a liar.  And then I pass that fact along so others will know as well.


LIAR.


----------



## MicPaPa

It wasn't long ago $6 gas in CA was  mocked on this board as a Q conspiracy theory.


New world order:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512079727833464834


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> As far as I know I never saw that post. I don’t agree with Grace but would never condone that kind of language. I do speed read most posts so if I put a “laugh” emoji on that post that was grievous error and apologize to Grace profusely.
> I have told posters on “my side of the aisle” (or should that be isle in this partitioned off enclave?) when I thought they went too far and have NEVER seen that from anyone on your end of things. Just say’n.


Sounds a lot like the Joy Reid defense.


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> Seems like it in Sacramento:
> 
> 
> 
> https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article259424559.html


Thats in NoCal.  Apparently not an emergency at the border with the lifting of Title 42.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> It wasn't long ago $6 gas in CA was  mocked on this board as a Q conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> New world order:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512079727833464834


$6 where?  Sounds like a bargain.


----------



## crush




----------



## met61

watfly said:


> Then I offer my apology.  Sorry if I misstated what you did. My bad and I take you at your word.
> 
> As to your other point, while I certainly lean right on a lot of issues (or more so have just been vocal on how devastating the left's policies have been),  I don't consider myself to be on an "end" even though I'm often been mischaracterized as such.  I try to take issues on a case by case basis and don't follow a playbook, narrative or talking points.  I'm not on anyone's team.  I'm agnostic, pro-choice, anti-Trump, pro-LGBTQ, pro business and pro free speech but those are immaterial to being PRO CHILDREN.  Some have called me a fence sitter which I take as a badge of honor.  I personally don't want to step in any shit on either side.
> 
> I suspect that if we all met face-to-face odds are probably good that I'd prefer to hangout with you than some you consider to be on my "end".


...pro-choice and PRO-CHILDREN sums it up.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Case counts are still high.  More to the point, hospitalizations and deaths are lower but stable.
> 
> Still around 500 deaths per day.  But most people have run out of energy for efforts to reduce it.   If it stays like this, it approximates a permanent bad flu season.   Worse than that if we get a spike every winter.


That will gradually reduce too as we run out of immunonaive people and the vaccinated come down with it.  The death/hospitalization waves will go lower and lower with each spike but people (like they do with flu, adenovirus, other coronavirus and even the common cold) will always die from it particularly at old age. The updated boosters will help…likely updated each year for at least a while…with new variants it looks like it’s already running away from these boosters even before being released.  Eventually we’ll stop counting which is why we don’t notice the others as much except in a bad flu/corona seasons

the thing that I think everyone (both on team panic and team reality) got wrong at various points was how long this would all go on


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> Seems like it in Sacramento:
> 
> 
> 
> https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article259424559.html


Indeed...appears to be very urgent.  Much like the cherry picking of ivermectin and the pandemic of ivermectin overdoses..


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> That will gradually reduce too as we run out of immunonaive people and the vaccinated come down with it.  The death/hospitalization waves will go lower and lower with each spike but people (like they do with flu, adenovirus, other coronavirus and even the common cold) will always die from it particularly at old age. The updated boosters will help…likely updated each year for at least a while…with new variants it looks like it’s already running away from these boosters even before being released.  Eventually we’ll stop counting which is why we don’t notice the others as much except in a bad flu/corona seasons
> 
> the thing that I think everyone (both on team panic and team reality) got wrong at various points was how long this would all go on


Ps one of my besties attended a pharma conference in Vegas. Stressful…1/3 was over covid…1/3 was still panicked and cautious but forced to go into close situations with indoor dining.  About 10% of the conference at best guess has come down with the Rona post trip (prob undercount since not everyone tested) the vast majority with mild allergies so far all non serious

pps the most scary part of my vacay was the possibility of testing positive and getting stuck abroad and travel insurance only covers part of it


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> "Won't hurt" may not be true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People Hospitalized After Taking Animal Drug Ivermectin for COVID
> 
> 
> People using the medicine -- typically for horses and cattle -- prompted a spike in calls to poison control centers across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


sounds like quite the emergency.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> That will gradually reduce too as we run out of immunonaive people and the vaccinated come down with it.  The death/hospitalization waves will go lower and lower with each spike but people (like they do with flu, adenovirus, other coronavirus and even the common cold) will always die from it particularly at old age. The updated boosters will help…likely updated each year for at least a while…with new variants it looks like it’s already running away from these boosters even before being released.  Eventually we’ll stop counting which is why we don’t notice the others as much except in a bad flu/corona seasons
> 
> the thing that I think everyone (both on team panic and team reality) got wrong at various points was how long this would all go on


Well, we told by teachers on here to stop complaining and just dip into your rainy day funds.  One cruel soul said if you dont have a rainy day fund then your stupid.  Teachers went all in and now look at what we go on our hands.  I am so grateful my kid is out of this system in two months,  Yippie horray,  Look at what teachers have to preach today to keep their jobs and look at what they have to inject into their arms to get their jobs?  This is ass bat crap.  I also heard that snakes were used in the great mix of all sorts of things.  I would not support boosters Grace T but it's  free world and we all have freedom to speak, right?


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That will gradually reduce too as we run out of immunonaive people and the vaccinated come down with it.  The death/hospitalization waves will go lower and lower with each spike but people (like they do with flu, adenovirus, other coronavirus and even the common cold) will always die from it particularly at old age. The updated boosters will help…likely updated each year for at least a while…with new variants it looks like it’s already running away from these boosters even before being released.  Eventually we’ll stop counting which is why we don’t notice the others as much except in a bad flu/corona seasons
> 
> the thing that I think everyone (both on team panic and team reality) got wrong at various points was how long this would all go on


Does "team reality" still include those advocating bullshit cures?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> sounds like quite the emergency.


Might hurt.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Does "team reality" still include those advocating bullshit cures?


And what's a bullshit cure? A vaccine that's not as effective as originally thought?


----------



## Multi Sport

thirteenknots said:


> LIAR.
> 
> View attachment 13203


E. aka Mr. Cryptographer, is the biggest liar on this forum... and the creepiest. He likes to accuse others about lying about him to cover his tracks. It's his M.O.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Does "team reality" still include those advocating bullshit cures?


”team reality” kind of has two camps.

One group got their shots, wore their masks, and moved their social life outdoors.  The people who kept their dinner reservation, but asked for an outdoor table.  Basically trying to do what they could to help, within reason.  

Then there are the people who spent the whole time pretending that nothing was happening.  These are the ones who held private dinner parties while restaurants were closed, took multiple out of state trips as soon as they could, only wore a mask when absolutely required, and never got vaccinated.  

The first group was pretty realistic.  The second group was not.

And, if you want to point out that certain politicians have more in common with group 2 than group 1, you’re right.


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> And what's a bullshit cure? A vaccine that's not as effective as originally thought?


These guys are something else.  I'm going to meet with my old minister friend and ask him to come on the forum and share about how wrong he was for pushing the jab on his church and his family.  I kid you not, his sister is dead because she was pressured by her brother and her boss to follow the rules like the rest.  Dude used scriptures like, "Obey your leaders, they keep watch over you.  Obey them so their work will be a joy."  Or, "obey the governing authorities, obey the master when his eye is and not on you."  The latest I heard is their finding "snake" dna, besides all the other crap. Wow, this is weird stuff were debating in 2022.  I knew abortion hit curds of the soul but this is going way deeper and more sinister.  We got monsters among us!!


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> E. aka Mr. Cryptographer, is the biggest liar on this forum... and the creepiest. He likes to accuse others about lying about him to cover his tracks. It's his M.O.


There's a couple more lies right there from the best-documented liar on the forum.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> ”team reality” kind of has two camps.
> 
> One group got their shots, wore their masks, and moved their social life outdoors.  The people who kept their dinner reservation, but asked for an outdoor table.  Basically trying to do what they could to help, within reason.
> 
> Then there are the people who spent the whole time pretending that nothing was happening.  These are the ones who held private dinner parties while restaurants were closed, took multiple out of state trips as soon as they could, only wore a mask when absolutely required, and never got vaccinated.
> 
> The first group was pretty realistic.  The second group was not.
> 
> And, if you want to point out that certain politicians have more in common with group 2 than group 1, you’re right.


Nice analysis, but it didn't answer the question about the bullshit cures.  How can a group claim to be "reality" when part of its schtick includes fantasies?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> There's a couple more lies right there from the best-documented liar on the forum.


Espola, you sir are not being honest.  You got played or played with the lairs that you covered for, that makes you a liar with them unless you come on here and agree your side cheated, spied and stole so much from so many Americans and that you're sorry.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> There's a couple more lies right there from the best-documented liar on the forum.


What lies?

Dude.. you posted, not me, that you were curious if any guys still used their Flys at urinals anymore. Then you denied it. Easy to deny now since we are in v3 or v4 of the forum. 

Your just a creepy old liar...real creepy.


----------



## crush

Here is someone who is HOT!  I like *H*onest, *O*pen and *T*ransparent folks like her.  People who share their truth up front to save others time and not have to guess what side of the spectrum they sit on politically.  I know folks who left spouse over the jab and I know people who got divorced from their employer of 24 years because they told the boss to go fly a kite.  Fence sitters just sit and obey and stay away from the poo poo on both sides. Must be real nice sitting high on the perch looking down on all the shit.....lol!!!  Thanks for sitting and not helping clean up the shit.  I want to play on both sides without the poop.  Get you poop scooper and meet me when your ready to clean up the shit!!!


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> What lies?
> 
> Dude.. you posted, not me, that you were curious if any guys still used their Flys at urinals anymore. Then you denied it. Easy to deny now since we are in v3 or v4 of the forum.
> 
> Your just a creepy old liar...real creepy.


Show me.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Nice analysis, but it didn't answer the question about the bullshit cures.  How can a group claim to be "reality" when part of its schtick includes fantasies?


Who here is promoting, or has promoted, the use of animal formulations of Ivermectin?

Ivermectin intended for human use is safe in prescribed dosages.  There is anecdotal evidence from treating physicians that Ivermectin has helped in the treatment of Covid.   The limited current studies have run the gamut of effective, not effective.  Cherry pick your study if you wish.

Is Ivermectin designed for human use effective against Covid?  Debatable, but far from bullshit.  There is way more hyperbole about the effectiveness of the vaccines, but again that doesn't make vaccines bullshit.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> That is consistent with her messaging throughout this whole mess.


Yes, I miss her as well.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, I miss her as well.











						WHO DID THIS??
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Who here is promoting, or has promoted, the use of animal formulations of Ivermectin?
> 
> Ivermectin intended for human use is safe in prescribed dosages.  There is anecdotal evidence from treating physicians that Ivermectin has helped in the treatment of Covid.   The limited current studies have run the gamut of effective, not effective.  Cherry pick your study if you wish.
> 
> Is Ivermectin designed for human use effective against Covid?  Debatable, but far from bullshit.  There is way more hyperbole about the effectiveness of the vaccines, but again that doesn't make vaccines bullshit.


Also HCQ and remdesvir.  I remember Grace quoted a study examined in one of the videos from the English nursing professor that showed remdesvir had better results than placebo in a double-blind study.  I commented at the time that if one looked at the raw data presented in the study, the placebo group had better results than the untreated public.  That suggests that we could just hand out sugar pills or saline injections without the risk of any dangerous side effects, and much cheaper, too.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Show me.


Prove me wrong. You can't...


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Also HCQ and remdesvir.  I remember Grace quoted a study examined in one of the videos from the English nursing professor that showed remdesvir had better results than placebo in a double-blind study.  I commented at the time that if one looked at the raw data presented in the study, the placebo group had better results than the untreated public.  That suggests that we could just hand out sugar pills or saline injections without the risk of any dangerous side effects, and much cheaper, too.


Africa has no issue with the Covid, why?  I know why, do you?  Speak truth to us for once, please.....  I am authentic, that means I speak truth from my soul.  That is why so many respect me.  They don't always agree with me, but when they do, we drink to it   I speak from the heart and you lie from your heart.  I also know that you were forced to go to church and church camp as a youth and if I guess right, you were forced fed the bible and you didn;t like that.  I went to college with many guys like you.  I knew girls too that were forced to read the bible and obey it's every word.  It's not right and I feel for you in that way.  I also think you have passwords to other avatars that are shared with other that you hide in the dark with and behind a screen name.  It's too bad because you have some experience that could help the girls out and make this planet more balanced.  I wish you the best and I hope you see how wrong at least you have been about everything politcally the last 6 years.  I mean everything. Grace T schooled you because she is fair and honest and does not pick a side.  She brings the sides together and then we decide what side to pick.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, I miss her as well.


A million dead and you're still going with media hoax?


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Prove me wrong. You can't...


Showing your lack of education again?

Read up --



			The Burden of Proof
		

.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> A million dead and you're still going with media hoax?


What did they die from?  Did the 1,000,000 have any other underlying health issues sir or just the flu?  I am by far the most authentic and open person on the forum. You ignore me sir, why?  I know the day and why you began to ignore me and I now understand you better.  I have visions and I see how hard you had it as a young man.  You never matured and always stayed a angry young boy.  The boy is hurt and needs to stop fighting and just let go.  I will 100% pray for you more and give you lot's of forgiveness and grace.  Hunter was put in a crazy ass family and you will also need to show him mercy.  I hit a nerve in your soul and that's why you ignored me and still do.  You can come back and open arms will be there waiting for you.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Also HCQ and remdesvir.  I remember Grace quoted a study examined in one of the videos from the English nursing professor that showed remdesvir had better results than placebo in a double-blind study.  I commented at the time that if one looked at the raw data presented in the study, the placebo group had better results than the untreated public.  That suggests that we could just hand out sugar pills or saline injections without the risk of any dangerous side effects, and much cheaper, too.


Remdesvir is an accepted and widely used treatment for Covid by reputable hospitals and doctors.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Remdesvir is an accepted and widely used treatment for Covid by reputable hospitals and doctors.


100% correct.  I have a very good pal who also happens to be a top notch Doctor and he agrees 100% as well.  He and my wife saved me and I love them both.  We have a liar among us and he is some kind of liar.  Two face double dog liar and I wonder why he is 100% into forced jabs and people getting fired for not obeying getting the jab and wants war in Ukraine.  He basically supports the complete opposite of my side of the fence brother.  It's like we were both programed to poop outside of our house and then yell at each other for the stinky part of that, all the while other neighbors like you sit on the fence looking at and enjoying the shitfest.  Is this why you came to planet earth watfly?  No sir, you came to fulfill your contract.  Go deep and within and ask why you actually came to this amazing planet. The future is coming and let me tell you, it's freaking amazing  It's just about to get wild and crazy and super fun for those who stand for the kids and the truth, wherever and whenever the truth is reveled.  You down with that?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> There's a couple more lies right there from the best-documented liar on the forum.


The document LIAR on this forum is none other than YOU Adam Espola Schiff.




Multi Sport said:


> What lies?
> 
> Dude.. you posted, not me, that you were curious if any guys still used their Flys at urinals anymore. Then you denied it. *Easy to deny now since we are in v3 or v4 of the forum. **
> 
> Your just a creepy old liar...real creepy.


** *One hundred % correct.... He knows what he's done and posted in the 
past, the original " Forum " despised him for the sick desviado comments he made.
He knows it's TRUE.
He can deny it all he wants. But it is TRUE !


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Remdesvir is an accepted and widely used treatment for Covid by reputable hospitals and doctors.


"_Last reviewed: January 20, 2022_ "

"There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."

"Overall, there is conflicting data, but it appears based on randomized trials that remdesivir does not provide an overall mortality benefit to the aggregated group of patients hospitalized with COVID-19, but that it does reduce time to clinical improvement when given early in the course of illness and/or to patients with mild hypoxia but less severe disease."









						Antivirals
					






					www.idsociety.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> "_Last reviewed: January 20, 2022_ "
> 
> "There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."
> 
> "Overall, there is conflicting data, but it appears based on randomized trials that remdesivir does not provide an overall mortality benefit to the aggregated group of patients hospitalized with COVID-19, but that it does reduce time to clinical improvement when given early in the course of illness and/or to patients with mild hypoxia but less severe disease."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antivirals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.idsociety.org


That sounds about right based on my understanding.  It's one of these big complex carbon ring things that does a little bit of everything. There are some general anti-viral properties associated with ivermectin that may help with management as it is put in the blurb, probably meaning reducing viral load after infection.  Given its rapid rate of clearance from the body, however, there is probably no way to get it as sufficiently high circulating concentration to force it onto the airway side of mucosal membranes to prevent Cov-2 from binding Ace2 on the outside of cells, which is a study that some people are going off of.  So the physiology/targeting of the drug just does not lend itself to a preventative.  The plus side is that people who OD on it generally recover because it is cleared fast.  Safer than drinking bleach at any rate.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> "_Last reviewed: January 20, 2022_ "
> 
> "There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."
> 
> "Overall, there is conflicting data, but it appears based on randomized trials that remdesivir does not provide an overall mortality benefit to the aggregated group of patients hospitalized with COVID-19, but that it does reduce time to clinical improvement when given early in the course of illness and/or to patients with mild hypoxia but less severe disease."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antivirals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.idsociety.org


That's a study, go talk to the hospitals and see if their using it.  Let me make it easy for you, they are.  That's hardly a bullshit treatment.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> That's a study, go talk to the hospitals and see if their using it.  Let me make it easy for you, they are.  That's hardly a bullshit treatment.


It's not "a study", it's a summary of "studies", put together by the Infectious Diseases Society of America, a non-profit organization of doctors and researchers in the field.









						Mission & Values
					






					www.idsociety.org


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That's a study, go talk to the hospitals and see if their using it.  Let me make it easy for you, they are.  That's hardly a bullshit treatment.


Him and Evil are something else....lol!  Bells palsy and blood clot worry is the new fear for adults under 45.  Plus, death  I saw a video of babies born from parents who were both fully jabbed and babies had black eyes and they looked like their 90 and they were only 3 months old.  I don;t post it on here because it's scary shit.  I saw another video of a half human and half animal coming from underground tunnels in Ukraine.  To be 100% honest with you, I have some ideaz who telling the truth and who the big liars are.  It's getting really hard today to know for sure who is honest.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That sounds about right based on my understanding.  It's one of these big complex carbon ring things that does a little bit of everything. There are some general anti-viral properties associated with ivermectin that may help with management as it is put in the blurb, probably meaning reducing viral load after infection.  Given its rapid rate of clearance from the body, however, there is probably no way to get it as sufficiently high circulating concentration to force it onto the airway side of mucosal membranes to prevent Cov-2 from binding Ace2 on the outside of cells, which is a study that some people are going off of.  So the physiology/targeting of the drug just does not lend itself to a preventative.  The plus side is that people who OD on it generally recover because it is cleared fast.  Safer than drinking bleach at any rate.


Are you referring to remdesvir or ivermectin here?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> ”team reality” kind of has two camps.
> 
> One group got their shots, wore their masks, and moved their social life outdoors.  The people who kept their dinner reservation, but asked for an outdoor table.  Basically trying to do what they could to help, within reason.
> 
> Then there are the people who spent the whole time pretending that nothing was happening.  These are the ones who held private dinner parties while restaurants were closed, took multiple out of state trips as soon as they could, only wore a mask when absolutely required, and never got vaccinated.
> 
> The first group was pretty realistic.  The second group was not.
> 
> And, if you want to point out that certain politicians have more in common with group 2 than group 1, you’re right.


In the end, Pelosi and I are on different teams, yet have much in common regarding covid.

Both over 60, not in the best health, got covid, mild symptoms, no hospitalization or serious complications.

Major points we did not have in common, she is fully vaxed and I am not vaxed, she overplayed the mass game and I did not, she did not practice what she preached and I did - oh, and she is a looney lefty and I'm a  Conservative.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Does "team reality" still include those advocating bullshit cures?


Says those advocating bullshit preventive measures - rich.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> $6 where?  Sounds like a bargain.


Mil bases 5.19


----------



## MicPaPa

Multi Sport said:


> What lies?
> 
> Dude.. you posted, not me, that you were curious if any guys still used their Flys at urinals anymore. Then you denied it. Easy to deny now since we are in v3 or v4 of the forum.
> 
> Your just a creepy old liar...real creepy.


Fact Check: TRUE


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> In the end, Pelosi and I are on different teams, yet have much in common regarding covid.
> 
> *Both over 60, not in the best health*, got covid, mild symptoms, no hospitalization or serious complications.
> 
> Major points we did not have in common, she is fully vaxed and I am not vaxed, she overplayed the mass game and I did not, she did not practice what she preached and I did - oh, and she is a looney lefty and I'm a  Conservative.


This you can 100% change and I will pull for you to be the best under 70 man out there.


----------



## Multi Sport

U


espola said:


> Showing your lack of education again?
> 
> Read up --
> 
> 
> 
> The Burden of Proof
> 
> 
> .


The forum court already found you guilty..

Prove me wrong.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Also HCQ and remdesvir.  I remember Grace quoted a study examined in one of the videos from the English nursing professor that showed remdesvir had better results than placebo in a double-blind study.  I commented at the time that if one looked at the raw data presented in the study, the placebo group had better results than the untreated public.  That suggests that we could just hand out sugar pills or saline injections without the risk of any dangerous side effects, and much cheaper, too.


The difference with you and @Grace T. is we respect what she has to say.

Oh yeah, almost forgot: "and keep her name out yo mouth!"


----------



## crush

Will Smith got slapped with a 10 year punishment.


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> U
> 
> *The forum court already found you guilty..*
> 
> Prove me wrong.


----------



## MicPaPa

thirteenknots said:


> The document LIAR on this forum is none other than YOU Adam Espola Schiff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** *One hundred % correct.... He knows what he's done and posted in the
> past, the original " Forum " despised him for the sick desviado comments he made.
> He knows it's TRUE.
> He can deny it all he wants. But it is TRUE !


Fact Check: ALSO TRUE


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> U
> 
> The forum court already found you guilty..
> 
> Prove me wrong.


What is "the forum court"?  You and 13k?


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> In the end, Pelosi and I are on different teams, yet have much in common regarding covid.
> 
> Both over 60, not in the best health, got covid, mild symptoms, no hospitalization or serious complications.
> 
> Major points we did not have in common, she is fully vaxed and I am not vaxed, she overplayed the mass game and I did not, she did not practice what she preached and I did - oh, and she is a looney lefty and I'm a  Conservative.


Over 60 doesn’t begin to describe it.   Pelosi is 82.

For covid, 62 and 82 are not at all similar.   Unless you are seriously overweight, Pelosi’s risk has to be at least ten times yours.

Glad your case was mild.  Remember there is a second question: how many people were indoors with you in the 3 days just before you suspected you were infected?


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Nice analysis, but it didn't answer the question about the bullshit cures.  How can a group claim to be "reality" when part of its schtick includes fantasies?


Interesting take.  There is plenty of bullshit science on the market, everyone has a little piece of the shit pie.  Plenty of  money to be made on based off of sleight of hand data, shady represation, and some flat out lying.  Ivermectin, myocarditis, RCTs, vaccines...you can go on and on.  Smart practicioners take everything with a grain of salt and look at all data and make their own informed decision on treatment for their patients..  Sure, there are idiots who try and dose on their own - just like the dummies who think triple masking, bandanas, and personalized fashion cloth masks work.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Over 60 doesn’t begin to describe it.   Pelosi is 82.
> 
> For covid, 62 and 82 are not at all similar.   Unless you are seriously overweight, Pelosi’s risk has to be at least ten times yours.
> 
> Glad your case was mild.  Remember there is a second question: how many people were indoors with you in the 3 days just before you suspected you were infected?


BMI has me at obese, my height and past life has me carrying it well, for now. 

My point is, understanding a lot of factors and variables go into covid outcomes and deaths, generally, there were many similar outcomes with dissimilar preventive measures, especially pre vaccine. 

A small indoor week-long conference, everyone picked up covid on day four from the vaxxed facilitator, one serious case for a vaxxed, but multiple comorbidity guy.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That sounds about right based on my understanding.  It's one of these big complex carbon ring things that does a little bit of everything. There are some general anti-viral properties associated with ivermectin that may help with management as it is put in the blurb, probably meaning reducing viral load after infection.  Given its rapid rate of clearance from the body, however, there is probably no way to get it as sufficiently high circulating concentration to force it onto the airway side of mucosal membranes to prevent Cov-2 from binding Ace2 on the outside of cells, which is a study that some people are going off of.  So the physiology/targeting of the drug just does not lend itself to a preventative.  The plus side is that people who OD on it generally recover because it is cleared fast.  Safer than drinking bleach at any rate.


As is the case for most things - good studies needed to be performed, without media and political influcence  Stuff coming out of cornell, in preprint shows promise VS omicron, outperforming other medications on the market.  At a minimum, ivermectin's  anti inflammatory properties will aid in recovery and possibly prevent/protect against organ damage.  Prescribed and admnistered correctly, there is more potential upside with minimal to zero downside.  It's one of the safest known prescribed medications on the planet.  But don't tell anyone that. 

Would I 100% rely on ivermectin as treatment and prevention..uhh, no.  In most cases drs treat disease as a whole.  Trying to do basic math and adminstering it from the feed store is never a good thing, unless you are decent at math.  I'd be more concerned with people taking other's left over corticosteroid prescription


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> *Smart practicioners take everything with a grain of salt and look at all data and make their own informed decision on treatment for their patients..*


100%.  One of my best pals is a really good doctor and does not take bribes or kickbacks and cannot be bought.  The pill pushers that come by his office he pushes them next door.  This Doc has all the degrees and could prescribe any pills all day or elect to do expensive surgeries and make bank. Nope, he only does Holistic healing with a taste of some western medicine.  He and his pateient make all the decisions.  He could have got some big time bonuses but he said no to the quick pay out for more time and the more he saw with his time, he could give great advice.  He helps you heal yourself first


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> What is "the forum court"/  You and 13k?


Lion Eyes, What's Up, GobearGo, Aff, Toros, Bald Ref, Sheriff, Nono, Crush, 13, Droopy, USD, I was only Acting, Threesixty and add me to that list. And those are the ones I know of...

Please continue.  

Btw.. You're wrong about T Gwynn. But you normally are.


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Lion Eyes, What's Up, GobearGo, Aff, Toros, Bald Ref, Sheriff, Nono, Crush, 13, Droopy, USD, I was only Acting, Threesixty and add me to that list. And those are the ones I know of...
> 
> Please continue.
> 
> Btw.. You're wrong about T Gwynn. But you normally are.


All highly principled jurists indeed.

What's this about T Gwynn?


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> All highly principled jurists indeed.
> 
> What's this about T Gwynn?


Go and read the Baseball thread.


----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Go and read the Baseball thread.


Backing away already?  That was quick.


----------



## Multi Sport

A


espola said:


> All highly principled jurists indeed.
> 
> What's this about T Gwynn?


A jury of your peers.. didnt


espola said:


> Backing away already?  That was quick.


It's your quote in the baseball thread, again not mine. Ignoring it doesn't change a thing, you're still wrong.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> All highly principled jurists indeed.
> 
> What's this about T Gwynn?


Were all fair and impartial as well Espola.  Some of us will show mercy when someone is sorry for their lies.  That's what's so hard for me.  Why do you lie so much?  Unless you're Dom and you want to stir the pot, you lie all day and some of us have had it with the lies.  Most liars that lie all the time dont know their lying so that right there should tell you that you sir are the forum liar.  Guilty by his peers.  I am authentic and most don;t agree with me but I dont lie.  I do write in satire so you need to know me to know I don't lie.  I lose 99% of my friends when I tell them to become like me you must stop eating meat and no booze for 30 days for best results.


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Multi Sport said:


> A
> 
> A jury of your peers.. didnt
> 
> It's your quote in the baseball thread, again not mine. Ignoring it doesn't change a thing, you're still wrong.


What quote?  I might have been wrong about something, but you are apparently afraid to address the details.  No surprise there.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> What quote?  I might have* "lied"* about something, but you are apparently afraid to address the details.  No surprise there.


I fixed it for you sir.  It's in bold


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> In the end, Pelosi and I are on different teams, yet have much in common regarding covid.
> 
> Both over 60, not in the best health, got covid, mild symptoms, no hospitalization or serious complications.
> 
> Major points we did not have in common, she is fully vaxed and I am not vaxed, she overplayed the mass game and I did not, she did not practice what she preached and I did - oh, and she is a looney lefty and I'm a  Conservative.


You aren’t a conservative you are a cult member. Conservatives believe in accountability, you don’t, obviously.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Multi Sport said:


> U
> 
> The forum court already found you guilty..
> 
> Prove me wrong.


Proving your hallucinations is on you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

MicPaPa said:


> BMI has me at obese, my height and past life has me carrying it well, for now.
> 
> My point is, understanding a lot of factors and variables go into covid outcomes and deaths, generally, there were many similar outcomes with dissimilar preventive measures, especially pre vaccine.
> 
> A small indoor week-long conference, everyone picked up covid on day four from the vaxxed facilitator, one serious case for a vaxxed, but multiple comorbidity guy.


That’s a strange argument you are trying to push.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What quote?  I might have been wrong about something, but you are apparently afraid to address the details.  No surprise there.


It’s that lack of accountability thing the cult loves.


----------



## Brav520

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512123912011800582


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

espola said:


> It's not "a study", it's a summary of "studies", put together by the Infectious Diseases Society of America, a non-profit organization of doctors and researchers in the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mission & Values
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.idsociety.org


Thats why you go to a treating physician for Covid and not a researcher or epidemiologist.  But I suspect you already know that and are just being your typical obtuse self.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> All highly principled jurists indeed.
> 
> What's this about T Gwynn?


This from a guy who is a member of a pedo pack with @GoldenShower and @Fister Du


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Thats why you go to a treating physician for Covid and not a researcher or epidemiologist.  But I suspect you already know that and are just being your typical obtuse self.


Does "obtuse" stretch enough to cover this?

"There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."


----------



## Brav520

Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours. Here's what you need to know
					

The bill, AB 2932, would change the definition of a workweek from 40 hours to 32 hours for companies with more than 500 employees.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Brav520

My guess , this bill doesn’t stand a chance and it’s probably be authored /sponsored by someone who is trying to build a name for themselves in Ca politics . at least that is my hope


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Are you referring to remdesvir or ivermectin here?


Ivermectin.  Remdesivir intended action to directly block the polymerase of RNA viruses, thus blocking the viral replication cycle.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Does "obtuse" stretch enough to cover this?
> 
> "There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."


Weird that its a recommended treatment by the NIH.  So are your saying that the NIH is recommending bullshit treatments?  Who should we listen to then? Your cherry picked sources?









						Figure 2. Therapeutic Management of Adults Hospitalized for COVID-19 Based on Disease Severity | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines
					

Learn about the pharmacologic management of hospitalized adults with COVID-19.



					www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Remdesvir is an accepted and widely used treatment for Covid by reputable hospitals and doctors.


There are issues that limit its effectiveness.  It has to be bioactivated, and it is short lived in circulation. Those are things that the chemists can work on.  But there is a also a legitimate debate as to whether it enhances the rate of viral genetic changes, and, for other viruses, drug resistant variants can be selected.  But it is nice to have a drug in the arsenal that targets something besides the spike protein.  Remdesvir and related drugs occupy that niche.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Ivermectin.  Remdesivir intended action to directly block the polymerase of RNA viruses, thus blocking the viral replication cycle.


Your description of a non-effective prophylactic that might reduce viral load once infected seems to apply to both Ivermectin and Remdesivir, mechanics of how that may be accomplished aside.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> As is the case for most things - good studies needed to be performed, without media and political influcence  Stuff coming out of cornell, in preprint shows promise VS omicron, outperforming other medications on the market.  At a minimum, ivermectin's  anti inflammatory properties will aid in recovery and possibly prevent/protect against organ damage.  Prescribed and admnistered correctly, there is more potential upside with minimal to zero downside.  It's one of the safest known prescribed medications on the planet.  But don't tell anyone that.
> 
> Would I 100% rely on ivermectin as treatment and prevention..uhh, no.  In most cases drs treat disease as a whole.  Trying to do basic math and adminstering it from the feed store is never a good thing, unless you are decent at math.  I'd be more concerned with people taking other's left over corticosteroid prescription


One thing to know is that there is much incentive in the pharmaceutical industry to repurpose drugs.  There are a number of reasons, with the main one being that a repurposed drug does not need to go through the same sort of FDA approval process, which makes it much cheaper to bring to market for a new application. I can guarantee you that there are studies throwing chemical libraries with known drugs looking for compounds that block Ace2 binding to spike. Something that actually can get into the airway side of the aveolar sacs. The work is already there showing that, at very high concentration, ivermectin can block Ace2-spike.  In fact, because of its structure, it can block many protein-protein interactions because of its structure, sort of non-specifically. But delivering ivermectin to the aveolii at the necessary concentration to block that interaction in people is not a trivial matter-getting a big chemical structure drug across that membrane is just tough.  You need a very high circulating concentration for that to even be possible.  And at those concentrations it gets into the CNS and is a rather potent neurotoxin. If CoV-2 were an enteric virus it might be a different story. Omicron has acquired changes allowing it to infect the upper respiratory tract, so a nasal spray form of ivermectin might be something to try.  Don't know if its been looked at it. 

The public health push was always going to be directed towards something that could actually confer immunity.  A drug approach does not make that possible.  But taking ivermectin at proper dosage certainly will not hurt you, and it could conceivably have some benefit on the post infection side. The anti-inflammatory properties, to my understanding, have been mostly looked at with respect to reducing the mortality of full blown COVID19


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> Your description of a non-effective prophylactic that might reduce viral load once infected seems to apply to both Ivermectin and Remdesivir, mechanics of how that may be accomplished aside.


Remdesivir has been approved by the FDA for treatment of COVID19.  It needed to show efficacy to get that designation. There will likely be a second generation of nucleoside analogue drugs that work better.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> "There is a lack of consensus among society and organizational guidelines on whether remdesivir should be used in the management of COVID-19, given the varying results in existing clinical trial data."


Agreed. Now insert any other treatment name in place of remdesivir in that quote and I’ll also agree with that as tautology.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> One thing to know is that there is much incentive in the pharmaceutical industry to repurpose drugs.  There are a number of reasons, with the main one being that a repurposed drug does not need to go through the same sort of FDA approval process, which makes it much cheaper to bring to market for a new application. I can guarantee you that there are studies throwing chemical libraries with known drugs looking for compounds that block Ace2 binding to spike.


I can not agree that is accurate statement about “much incentive in the pharmaceutical industry to repurpose drugs” when discussing a drug that is out of patent… but you knew that.

The opposite is true of poor nations and humanitarians that just want to save lives as cheaply as possible.  Ironically, where some medications are accepted more frequently.

I’m certainly not pushing ‘horse paste’ (that makes me laugh as I actually do my own body weight calculations on the Equine Dewormer, fenbendazole, for my canines veterinary purposes), or bleach.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> I can not agree that is accurate statement about “much incentive in the pharmaceutical industry to repurpose drugs” when discussing a drug that is out of patent… but you knew that.
> 
> The opposite is true of poor nations and humanitarians that just want to save lives as cheaply as possible.  Ironically, where some medications are accepted more frequently.
> 
> I’m certainly not pushing ‘horse paste’ (that makes me laugh as I actually do my own body weight calculations on the Equine Dewormer, fenbendazole, for my canines veterinary purposes), or bleach.


thought the approval was for a medical application, and that approval persists after the end date of the patent.  generic branding would seem to depends on it.  and if you find a new application for an old drug you can get a patent for that with a fraction of the R&D cost. no?  people who try to save lives-good on them.  you use the tools you have.


----------



## MicPaPa

Shoot the messanger and ignore the message in 3..2..1

*"Dr. Long also testified that the data shows that deaths of military members from the vaccines exceed deaths from COVID itself."









						US Military Doctor Testifies She Was Ordered by govn administration to 'Cover Up' Vaccine Injuries
					

Dr. Theresa Long, medical officer with the United States military, has testified in court that she was ordered by a superior to suppress Covid-19 vaccine injuries following the Biden regime’s mandate




					palexander.substack.com
				



*


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Shoot the messanger and ignore the message in 3..2..1
> 
> *"Dr. Long also testified that the data shows that deaths of military members from the vaccines exceed deaths from COVID itself."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Military Doctor Testifies She Was Ordered by govn administration to 'Cover Up' Vaccine Injuries
> 
> 
> Dr. Theresa Long, medical officer with the United States military, has testified in court that she was ordered by a superior to suppress Covid-19 vaccine injuries following the Biden regime’s mandate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> palexander.substack.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Your article refers to “certain disorders spiked after the vaccine mandate went into effect, including miscarriages and cancers, and neurological problems which increased by 1000 percent.”

You expect us to believe that we had a ten fold increase in cancer and neurological disorders among vaccine recipients, but no one noticed?  Ten fold increase, caused by a shot received by 2/3 of the population.

So, this epidemic of cancers and miscarriages has been going on for over a year.   At a rate 10X as high as 2 years ago.  You’d think someone in oncology would notice the fact that they are a wee bit overworked recently.  

People tend to notice when their workload increases tenfold.  There is that moment when you look up and think “I haven’t had a day off in seven months.  Maybe something is wrong…”

Golly.  It’s one humdinger of a mystery.  Wonder how they kept it hidden for so long.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> thought the approval was for a medical application, and that approval persists after the end date of the patent.  generic branding would seem to depends on it.  and if you find a new application for an old drug you can get a patent for that with a fraction of the R&D cost. no?  people who try to save lives-good on them.  you use the tools you have.


Yup, that is also true.  Look, I don’t want to give fodder to those that want to draw inaccurate concussions and mislead others… I assume you have a similar inclination given your somewhat dispassionate responses, but I think you and a few others in this forum get my point and I’ll leave it at that.

BTW, I found this recent article interesting…









						Experts say BA.2 could be more of a 'bump' than a surge. Is this the future of COVID?
					

At first, the fear was that BA.2 would spark a surge in the U.S. similar to what has occurred in Europe. But dig into the latest data, and it looks like something different might be happening instead.




					news.yahoo.com
				




Sounds similar to something that was debated previously on this forum.

“Some observers have noted that the U.S. is recording fewer PCR test results now than it was then, in large part because at-home antigen tests — which usually go unreported — are more widely available. “A lot of people are rapid-testing positive for mild cases of COVID, staying home for a few days, getting better, and getting on with life,” the Atlantic’s Derek Thompson noted Thursday. “This cycle makes no contact [with] official data.” Thompson called it “an invisible wave.””


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Your article refers to “certain disorders spiked after the vaccine mandate went into effect, including miscarriages and cancers, and neurological problems which increased by 1000 percent.”
> 
> You expect us to believe that we had a ten fold increase in cancer and neurological disorders among vaccine recipients, but no one noticed?  Ten fold increase, caused by a shot received by 2/3 of the population.
> 
> So, this epidemic of cancers and miscarriages has been going on for over a year.   At a rate 10X as high as 2 years ago.  You’d think someone in oncology would notice the fact that they are a wee bit overworked recently.
> 
> People tend to notice when their workload increases tenfold.  There is that moment when you look up and think “I haven’t had a day off in seven months.  Maybe something is wrong…”
> 
> Golly.  It’s one humdinger of a mystery.  Wonder how they kept it hidden for so long.


Dr. Long has claimed that the vaccines contain antifreeze.  Maybe that is to prevent damage to Bill Gates' microchips.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Dr. Long has claimed that the vaccines contain antifreeze.  Maybe that is to prevent damage to Bill Gates' microchips.


Is that one of the doctors for America like the voodoo witch doctor lady from Houston?


----------



## crush

38 YO YOUTUBE VLOGGER PULMONARY EMBOLISM WITH BLOOD CLOTS IN HER LUNGS - VAXX INJURY
					

MIRROR SOURCE: (Credits to HUMANITY'S VAULT https://odysee.com/@HumanitysVault:a ) https://community.covidvaccineinjuries.com/justine-ezarik-38-year-old-youtube-vlogger-had-a-pulmonary-embolism-with-clot-in-lungs/  ⚠️MORE UP TO DATE CONTENT HERE:⚠️:…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is that one of the doctors for America like the voodoo witch doctor lady from Houston?




Look in her eyes and ask yourself what you see Husker?  Look deeply into her eyes.  The super sharp Doctor from Houston knows my Doc and they both saved lives with sound medical advice.  One size does not fit all.  Options and lot's of opinions are good.  I went with no meat and no booze and no TV and a healthy life with my wife, which allows my God given immune system to do the rest.  Some choose jabs + boosters and eat whatever they want and drink themselves to sleep with booze and pills.  Some chose a jab and then stopped after the first jab or second and got healthy like me.  It's all a choice.  We do have some choice still what we inject into our blood?  Alternative medicine will be the new normal.  Wellness, not illness!!!


----------



## crush

Moderna just recalled over 760,000 jabs because some doses was found to be contaminated with a foreign body.  Japanese health pros suspended the same doses last year because they found stainless steal in a vial.  Also, little pieces of plastic found in people's blood.  That is why people have blood clots like the common cold now.  This is coming out of Reuters.  Also, old pal took two jabs of this stuff and is sick all the time and has shortness of breath.  He is getting his blood looked at.  My nephew had a Widow attack and one of my old pastors sister died.  I also said old teacher pal got blood clots and is on blood thinner and my other pals wife is on pace for another record year selling drugs.  My old house in Temecula is worth over $800,000 now......lol!


----------



## crush

Difficult Truths will soon see the Light of Day!  Dark to Light!  The enormity of what is coming will SHOCK the world.  Pray!!!


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is that one of the doctors for America like the voodoo witch doctor lady from Houston?


Air Force Lt. Col Flight Surgeon.  After she started grounding pilots claiming they were ill from being vaccinated her duties were adjusted.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Air Force Lt. Col Flight Surgeon.  After she started grounding pilots claiming they were ill from being vaccinated her duties were adjusted.


----------



## crush

*New Jersey to require 2nd graders learn about gender identity in fall, alarming parents*
*Sample NJ lesson plan says, 'You might feel like you're a boy even if you have body parts that some people *((Yes sir, we know who those some bitches are....lol))* might tell you are 'girl' parts'*

Wow, sex ed has taken a new turn.  I feel like a woman sometimes but have body parts as a man.  I see myself in mirror and I see a man, but I feel like a woman sometimes.


----------



## crush

It's ok to hug without a mask as long as it's for emotional purposes.  Covid 19 cannot break the emotional wall.


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s that lack of accountability thing the cult loves.


Hey drunk ass... You're just like your BFF. Anything that requires effort, in this case going to the Baseball thread, is to difficult for you. How you make it through a day... 

Seriously... stop drinking. You're just looking foolish.


----------



## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> Your article refers to “certain disorders spiked after the vaccine mandate went into effect, including miscarriages and cancers, and neurological problems which increased by 1000 percent.”
> 
> You expect us to believe that we had a ten fold increase in cancer and neurological disorders among vaccine recipients, but no one noticed?  Ten fold increase, caused by a shot received by 2/3 of the population.
> 
> So, this epidemic of cancers and miscarriages has been going on for over a year.   At a rate 10X as high as 2 years ago.  You’d think someone in oncology would notice the fact that they are a wee bit overworked recently.
> 
> People tend to notice when their workload increases tenfold.  There is that moment when you look up and think “I haven’t had a day off in seven months.  Maybe something is wrong…”
> 
> Golly.  It’s one humdinger of a mystery.  Wonder how they kept it hidden for so long.


One of my former employees wife, who's cancer was in remission, is now in the ICU. Yes, she was vaxed and boosted. Cancer has returned. 

The media and government say the first known hospitalization due to covid was in December of 19. My son was diagnosed with an unknown form of covid in September of 19. Ten days at Hoag... he got it from his fiance.

One of my riding/racing buddies came down with a bad case of shingles. Dude is in his thirties, and vaxed. 

These are all personal. People I know. So played out across the country these cases would be exponentially higher. 

But hey. Our government would never lie...


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Your article refers to “certain disorders spiked after the vaccine mandate went into effect, including miscarriages and cancers, and neurological problems which increased by 1000 percent.”
> 
> You expect us to believe that we had a ten fold increase in cancer and neurological disorders among vaccine recipients, but no one noticed?  Ten fold increase, caused by a shot received by 2/3 of the population.
> 
> So, this epidemic of cancers and miscarriages has been going on for over a year.   At a rate 10X as high as 2 years ago.  You’d think someone in oncology would notice the fact that they are a wee bit overworked recently.
> 
> People tend to notice when their workload increases tenfold.  There is that moment when you look up and think “I haven’t had a day off in seven months.  Maybe something is wrong…”
> 
> Golly.  It’s one humdinger of a mystery.  Wonder how they kept it hidden for so long.





Multi Sport said:


> One of my former employees wife, who's cancer was in remission, is now in the ICU. Yes, she was vaxed and boosted. Cancer has returned.
> 
> The media and government say the first known hospitalization due to covid was in December of 19. My son was diagnosed with an unknown form of covid in September of 19. Ten days at Hoag... he got it from his fiance.
> 
> One of my riding/racing buddies came down with a bad case of shingles. Dude is in his thirties, and vaxed.
> 
> These are all personal. People I know. So played out across the country these cases would be exponentially higher.
> 
> But hey. Our government would never lie...


None of those personal stories need to be extrapolated across the country as they’re not COVID related.  We already know that cancer sucks and remission is not always permanent…. Shingles? Ok, who had chicken pox? Raise your hand.


----------



## Multi Sport

Yo


N00B said:


> None of those personal stories need to be extrapolated across the country as they’re not COVID related.  We already know that cancer sucks and remission is not always permanent…. Shingles? Ok, who had chicken pox? Raise your hand.


You're right. Most of us have had the Chicken Pox. Did you know that shingles is most common in people over 50? Doesn't mean it never happens in healthy 30 year olds... just odd.

Yes. Cancer sucks. Remission doesn't mean cured. But numbers are up.. again, odd.


----------



## crush

*"Please make sure to get all your jabs+boosters and please, wear a mask to be respectful to those you might infect if you have Covid or even the slightest cough or sniffle."  Protect those you love and get out the word, please be jabbed to the full.  That was a radio commercial just now with my words at the end. If we all work together, we can beat this virus they say.  Lastly, if you refuse to get the jab we will also scorn you, shun you, fire you, Shame you, ruin you and make sure you can;t buy or sell, all because you did not obey the master of the earth.  Happy Palm Sunday.  Easter is next week.  He Rose from the DEAD and soon he will RETURN alive and well as the LION of Judah with JUDGEMENT, to BOOT out those who can only hate and who only choose to love FEAR and only use FEAR tactics to make MONEY!!! Klause tried and failed but will try to the very end.  The devil is in the details folks and folks, we all got played by the master liars and puppet masters for the MASTER of the earth.  So many sold their souls to be rich and famous.  Trust me you guys, the days of selling one's soul to be rich and powerful is over.  I understand some of you want that normal life of Us vs Them.  No more.  It's only going to be US!!!  I told you all this a long time ago so hopefully you start believing me.   The return of Yeshua is true and he will be the TRUTH!!!*


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> One thing to know is that there is much incentive in the pharmaceutical industry to repurpose drugs.  There are a number of reasons, with the main one being that a repurposed drug does not need to go through the same sort of FDA approval process, which makes it much cheaper to bring to market for a new application. I can guarantee you that there are studies throwing chemical libraries with known drugs looking for compounds that block Ace2 binding to spike. Something that actually can get into the airway side of the aveolar sacs. The work is already there showing that, at very high concentration, ivermectin can block Ace2-spike.  In fact, because of its structure, it can block many protein-protein interactions because of its structure, sort of non-specifically. But delivering ivermectin to the aveolii at the necessary concentration to block that interaction in people is not a trivial matter-getting a big chemical structure drug across that membrane is just tough.  You need a very high circulating concentration for that to even be possible.  And at those concentrations it gets into the CNS and is a rather potent neurotoxin. If CoV-2 were an enteric virus it might be a different story. Omicron has acquired changes allowing it to infect the upper respiratory tract, so a nasal spray form of ivermectin might be something to try.  Don't know if its been looked at it.
> 
> The public health push was always going to be directed towards something that could actually confer immunity.  A drug approach does not make that possible.  But taking ivermectin at proper dosage certainly will not hurt you, and it could conceivably have some benefit on the post infection side. The anti-inflammatory properties, to my understanding, have been mostly looked at with respect to reducing the mortality of full blown COVID19


Invermectin doesn't make anyone any money.  Repurposed drugs are an incredibly useful public health tool.  In this case, $$$ have been driving the train, which makes drugs like ivermectin pharma public enemy #1.

Ivermectin's profile makes it easy and safe to integrate into treatment regimens.  The whining of media talking heads and political medical actors demonized  the drug.  Are there going to be people who take their health into their own hands?  Of course, happens every day with many, many precription drugs.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Invermectin doesn't make anyone any money.  Repurposed drugs are an incredibly useful public health tool.  In this case, $$$ have been driving the train, which makes drugs like ivermectin pharma public enemy #1.
> 
> Ivermectin's profile makes it easy and safe to integrate into treatment regimens.  The whining of media talking heads and political medical actors demonized  the drug.  Are there going to be people who take their health into their own hands?  Of course, happens every day with many, many precription drugs.


75% of all advertising dollars on Tel A Vision, Social Media, Print and Radio is all paid for by Big Pharma.  It was called "pay to play."  Plus they got free advertising by teachers, doctors, Dad, Espola, NoCal Dad, Husker Du, Dr. Evil and BS and a few others right here preaching the message all day and night.  They work so hard for the master of the earth and most have no clue.  The fact I know someone who was very close to me and preached just like the preachers on here, "get the jab and here is why God said so in the bible" lost his little sister is insane.  Dude has said nothing on Insta or FB.  Not a peep.  I do know his bro and his bro is like, "Hey man, pray for Joel, his is not doing well.  He's taking the death of our sister very hard."  He said because he went to Harvard and always thought he was smarter then everyone else, he can;t come out of his house or talk about the Jab anymore.  He's done talking about it.  I said you mean he's done preaching about why the jab is good for you.  I told him to tell him to call me.  If I get the call, I will share.  Happy Palm Sunday.


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Invermectin doesn't make anyone any money.  Repurposed drugs are an incredibly useful public health tool.  In this case, $$$ have been driving the train, which makes drugs like ivermectin pharma public enemy #1.
> 
> Ivermectin's profile makes it easy and safe to integrate into treatment regimens.  The whining of media talking heads and political medical actors demonized  the drug.  Are there going to be people who take their health into their own hands?  Of course, happens every day with many, many precription drugs.


Every time I plunk down for monthly heartguard for the dogs I figure somebody's got to be making some money on ivermectin.  I just checked Amazon and a two pack of horse dewormer is $25. Apple flavored no less.  Not bad.  Pharma is like any other industry.  Money always drives the train, particularly giving the regulatory footing of the industry in this country.  

The profile of ivermectin has two big caveats in dealing with an eruptive respiratory virus.  First, it does not confer immunity.  Second, getting it at an efficacious concentration to the site of action for it to prevent infection is a problem.  But it may have some value on the back side to limit the scale of an infection once virus is shed into the circulatory system.  If you stay within recommended dosage there's no harm.  And you are unlikely to suffer from tropical diseases.

In terms of repurposing drugs, there are much bigger cash cows to go after compared to a 3-10 year limited market window associated with a pandemic.  But, since you bring up demonizing, here's a different flavor of conspiracy related to $.  Suppose-just suppose-we're sitting around the board room, trying to cook up a scheme for some short term profit. In certain circles, social media is lit with vaccine = bad.  So let's inject ivermectin as an alternative into those social media markets.  Lots of easy buttons to push. Much easier and cheaper compared to R&D.  If we double our monthly sales next quarter we all get raises.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Every time I plunk down for monthly heartguard for the dogs I figure somebody's got to be making some money on ivermectin.  I just checked Amazon and a two pack of horse dewormer is $25. Apple flavored no less.  Not bad.  Pharma is like any other industry.  Money always drives the train, particularly giving the regulatory footing of the industry in this country.
> 
> The profile of ivermectin has two big caveats in dealing with an eruptive respiratory virus.  First, it does not confer immunity.  Second, getting it at an efficacious concentration to the site of action for it to prevent infection is a problem.  But it may have some value on the back side to limit the scale of an infection once virus is shed into the circulatory system.  If you stay within recommended dosage there's no harm.  And you are unlikely to suffer from tropical diseases.
> 
> In terms of repurposing drugs, there are much bigger cash cows to go after compared to a 3-10 year limited market window associated with a pandemic.  But, since you bring up demonizing, here's a different flavor of conspiracy related to $.  Suppose-just suppose-we're sitting around the board room, trying to cook up a scheme for some short term profit. In certain circles, social media is lit with vaccine = bad.  So let's inject ivermectin as an alternative into those social media markets.  Lots of easy buttons to push. Much easier and cheaper compared to R&D.  If we double our monthly sales next quarter we all get raises.


Just say no is my motto.  No meat, no impossible burgers, no fake meat made by Bill Gates, no booze to dance with those Spirits and 100% only a yes for freshly grown and organic fruits and veggies.  This is a nasty game people are playing with our lives.  I feel 100% I made the best and most wisest decisions.  I went for wellness and not drugs to allow me to live a careless life style.  I admit.  From 2017-2019 I was pissed off and depressed at how I was lied to by just about everyone in my life.  I share from my heart which makes me authentic.  Most of you don;t agree with me on much but you ALL agree I am the real deal and one crazy Hawk dad.  I pass no judgement on those who chose the jabs and boosters.  I 100% believe that someone will have to answer to the force jabs or you can;t buy or sell.  Plus forcing grade school kids to inject this bio jab is insane.  Let's see if California pushes it back from the Fall.  Evil, you were 100% wrong and it don't matter how smart you are.  Admitting when one is wrong is first step in becoming a genius   Happy Palm Sunday


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

NOTHING CAN STOP WHAT'S COMING!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com
				




Mr. T is sure getting in the last laugh folks.  "I don't like t because he said he likes to grab ____________."  This is when people have lost the debate, especially the weak men I know.  Most guys I know really like  ____________. Grabbing it might not be what most women want but some men do like to grab it and some women get paid to let you grab it.  I like to ________ _______ and  ___________ ____________  and me and my wife love our time together.  Let's stop playing on words and looking to destroy the person that caught all the cheaters and those who were pure evil.  The hypocrites I know these days are the problem.  Grow a pair!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> View attachment 13232


LMFAO.  I thought this was must be some kind of inside joke parody until I searched ivermectin.com and it's real. But wait, there's more.  Germ proof spray.  Dr. Crush, you didn't happen to land a new gig with these guys by any chance did you?  OK, I'm starting to think I may actually be right about the comet.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> LMFAO.  I thought this was must be some kind of inside joke parody until I searched ivermectin.com and it's real. But wait, there's more.  Germ proof spray.  Dr. Crush, you didn't happen to land a new gig with these guys by any chance did you?  OK, I'm starting to think I may actually be right about the comet.


I have no time to watch 41 minutes Evil.  It look's weird but that is what your crew is to me.  Weird fetishes and weird way to be but I love you.  I can live with you if you stop mandating the bio jab and give people their jobs back so they can live and be free.  This has gone way to far.  Lot's of arrest will be coming and let's see how you behave on here.  HPS!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> I have no time to watch 41 minutes Evil.  It look's weird but that is what your crew is to me.  Weird fetishes and weird way to be but I love you.  I can live with you if you stop mandating the bio jab and give people their jobs back so they can live and be free.  This has gone way to far.  Lot's of arrest will be coming and let's see how you behave on here.  HPS!


Just having some fun.  Have yourself a great day.  Weird fetishes-I know, right?  Like check out this dude.  What's up with that?


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just having some fun.  Have yourself a great day.  Weird fetishes-I know, right?  Like check out this dude.  What's up with that?
> 
> View attachment 13233


Listen to the words to the song bro....


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Pharma is like any other industry.  Money always drives the train, particularly giving the regulatory footing of the industry in this country.


 I have no idea how much Pharma interaction you have.  Pharma is unlike any other industry.  We are one of 2 countries on the planet that allows pharma advertisement.  The regulatory framework of this country in respect to pharma is what drives these companies to place their HQs here.   I'm sure you've heard of vioxx.  There are others out there but vioxx is a pretty good case study on how pharma is not like any other industry. 

Let me know the next time you go and see your primary care.  Take notice of how much attention he/she is paying to you when you are describing whatever ails you.  Also ask them to let you take a peek at the screen they are looking at on their laptop or tablet while they are listening to you describe your little aches, pains, discomfort.  You may be suprised at what you see.  

There are still good primary care providers out there...more and more are turning to the pharma playbook for your care.  There is a drug for everything these days, even it's neutral or bad for you.

Not all drugs are bad, but many are.  Pharma isn't a public health entity, they are a money making venture.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> I have no idea how much Pharma interaction you have.  Pharma is unlike any other industry.  We are one of 2 countries on the planet that allows pharma advertisement.  The regulatory framework of this country in respect to pharma is what drives these companies to place their HQs here.   I'm sure you've heard of vioxx.  There are others out there but vioxx is a pretty good case study on how pharma is not like any other industry.
> 
> Let me know the next time you go and see your primary care.  Take notice of how much attention he/she is paying to you when you are describing whatever ails you.  Also ask them to let you take a peek at the screen they are looking at on their laptop or tablet while they are listening to you describe your little aches, pains, discomfort.  You may be suprised at what you see.
> 
> There are still good primary care providers out there...more and more are turning to the pharma playbook for your care.  There is a drug for everything these days, even it's neutral or bad for you.
> 
> Not all drugs are bad, but many are.  Pharma isn't a public health entity, they are a money making venture.


We can all thank the kind and rich family, The Rockerfellers.  War and drugs is big business in our country and with Tel A Vision controlling our minds since it's invention, we were duped into taking drugs and only living to 70, fat and unhealthy after we retire.  We should go to 120 easily.  Our 70 year old man is fat, scared, full of the unknown and just lost.  It was by design.  Born with a tax on our head and a number to boot, we had no chance to be successful and free.  We are sold our whole life that we live in a free country.  Free my ass.  You have to take jabs to earn a buck now???The wrost part in all this, it gets wrose and more sick and with some sickos.  Their is actually something that makes even more $$$$ then all the pills and jabs combined.  This is only the tip of the iceberg.  Buckle up brother.  I like you by the way.  You seem like a fair and reasonable father.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> I have no time to watch 41 minutes Evil.  It look's weird but that is what your crew is to me.  Weird fetishes and weird way to be but I love you.  I can live with you if you stop mandating the bio jab and give people their jobs back so they can live and be free.  This has gone way to far.  Lot's of arrest will be coming and let's see how you behave on here.  HPS!


You’re a fraud plain and simple. You also are most likely projecting which puts you in some dark places. You are a mess, stop bouncing between your multiple accounts and seek help.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *You’re a fraud plain and simple*.


I am a fraud?  Prove it.  Fraud is the hardest thing to prove and that is why 98% of all court cases get settled in a back and dark room.  According to my PMs and Kicking and Screaming, I am authentic and many are rooting for me.  Happy Palm Sunday and no, I am not projecting my darkness on here.  I do have some fun fantasies that my wife and I are exploring.  We are ONE and we can do whatever the two of us like.  We have the most authentic marriage I know.  We are super HOT and we are super open.  I'm the one who has the fetishes but she plays with me.  You crack me up Husker.  Let today bring you love and light and true happiness.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *You are a mess, stop bouncing between your multiple accounts and seek help.*


Ok smart Husker.  You go ahead and take your jabs, pills and orders from these men.

I am a fraud and a mess is classic.  t lives in your head and you came on boasting about taking the jabs and all the boosters and that HRC is a lovely human and JB and Hunter should become Saints.  All you have done is lie and you project that I am a fraud.  I bet Golden Gate will be back to bitch slap me again.  Espola has me on ignore so now you decide to call me a mess and a fraudster.  Do you read what you actually write?


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I have no idea how much Pharma interaction you have.  Pharma is unlike any other industry.  We are one of 2 countries on the planet that allows pharma advertisement.  The regulatory framework of this country in respect to pharma is what drives these companies to place their HQs here.   I'm sure you've heard of vioxx.  There are others out there but vioxx is a pretty good case study on how pharma is not like any other industry.
> 
> Let me know the next time you go and see your primary care.  Take notice of how much attention he/she is paying to you when you are describing whatever ails you.  Also ask them to let you take a peek at the screen they are looking at on their laptop or tablet while they are listening to you describe your little aches, pains, discomfort.  You may be suprised at what you see.
> 
> There are still good primary care providers out there...more and more are turning to the pharma playbook for your care.  There is a drug for everything these days, even it's neutral or bad for you.
> 
> Not all drugs are bad, but many are.  Pharma isn't a public health entity, they are a money making venture.


I had a regular visit just last week.  In that setting, both for the primary and the specialists, the doctor sits at a desk in a corner of the room and I sit in a chair to one side.  I can see everything he enters on my chart.  In addition to that, I can view the contents of the chart including the doctor's descriptions of my condition, prescriptions written, and any suggestions for follow-on visits on my patient status page on the internet.


----------



## crush

*Fauci says people should decide 'individual risk' for COVID, reverting back to masks possible*
*Fauci urged Congress to provide funding for tests, drugs and vaccines*

"What's going to happen is that we're going to see that each individual is going to have to make their calculation of the amount of risk ((FEAR!!)) that they want to take in going to indoor dinner is going to functions even within the realm of a green zone," Fauci said during an appearance on ABC’s "This Week" on Sunday. "It’s going to be a person's decision about the individual risk ((FEAR)) they're going to take."

"We're at that point where in many respects … we're going to have to live with some degree of virus ((FEAR)) in the community," he added. 

"It was said that if we do start seeing an uptick, particularly of hospitalizations, we may need to revert back ((Take it to the bank)) to being more careful ((Lockdowns maybe and mask and force Jab or no school for kids)) and having more utilizations of masks indoors," Fauci said. "But right now, we're watching it very, very carefully and there is concern ((I bet)) that it's going up, but hopefully we're not going to see increased severity." 

Fauci praised the level of vaccination ((expetp for folks like crush and those who support no vax mandate and lose livelihood)) and precaution among Americans, but he cautioned that people need to remain aware of the waning immunity that occurs over time. ((Yes, my pal has been jabbed thwice and all boosters.  He is sick every month now.  It wans so fast he just schedules his next booster at the Docs office)).


----------



## crush

The last straw to pull is for Liz to file Criminal Charges on t and get us all in more wars.  I know Husker and Espola love Liz.  You guys are both on record to say you would vote for her.  Who do you think she has to cover for fellas?  "Go get him Liz.  Stop this evil man from finding out all the secrets of the past and what are real plan was if HRC was the Lord.  I know I would be in a FEMA camp or hiding in a beach cave.  t saved us and our Military from all of us being forced to take this bat and snake shit.  It's a fact t saved the world.  I dodged a bullet and I will be thanking t and all the folks like him who saw the truth and know the truth.  Husker, you are a mess and i can help you.


----------



## crush

Fear and Projecting unto others your thoughts is why were all in a big mess and it can cause relationships to fail, because of thoughts in one's head. Husker has TDS and CDS.  He thinks I'm the only mess in town and I am a fraudster.  All I do is share my mess on here and from the heart.


----------



## crush

This Dr. Oz and endorsement from t is causing a big roar, a huff and some puffs.  I had someone ask me what is a Qanon.  It's Q and Anons.  Husker is a Qanon.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I had a regular visit just last week.  In that setting, both for the primary and the specialists, the doctor sits at a desk in a corner of the room and I sit in a chair to one side.  I can see everything he enters on my chart.  In addition to that, I can view the contents of the chart including the doctor's descriptions of my condition, prescriptions written, and any suggestions for follow-on visits on my patient status page on the internet.


you have a keeper.


----------



## crush

"Elon has decided not to join our board," Twitter CEO Parag Agrawal tweeted. "I sent a brief note to the company." 

 My read on this is Elon buy 51% and then he will run the whole show Parag.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Your article refers to “certain disorders spiked after the vaccine mandate went into effect, including miscarriages and cancers, and neurological problems which increased by 1000 percent.”
> 
> You expect us to believe that we had a ten fold increase in cancer and neurological disorders among vaccine recipients, but no one noticed?  Ten fold increase, caused by a shot received by 2/3 of the population.
> 
> So, this epidemic of cancers and miscarriages has been going on for over a year.   At a rate 10X as high as 2 years ago.  You’d think someone in oncology would notice the fact that they are a wee bit overworked recently.
> 
> People tend to notice when their workload increases tenfold.  There is that moment when you look up and think “I haven’t had a day off in seven months.  Maybe something is wrong…”
> 
> Golly.  It’s one humdinger of a mystery.  Wonder how they kept it hidden for so long.


You're not asked to believe anything, I just presented Court testimony from a Military Doctor - obviously, you'll do what you want with the information.


----------



## MicPaPa

crush said:


> View attachment 13237
> The last straw to pull is for Liz to file Criminal Charges on t and get us all in more wars.  I know Husker and Espola love Liz.  You guys are both on record to say you would vote for her.  Who do you think she has to cover for fellas?  "Go get him Liz.  Stop this evil man from finding out all the secrets of the past and what are real plan was if HRC was the Lord.  I know I would be in a FEMA camp or hiding in a beach cave.  t saved us and our Military from all of us being forced to take this bat and snake shit.  It's a fact t saved the world.  I dodged a bullet and I will be thanking t and all the folks like him who saw the truth and know the truth.  Husker, you are a mess and i can help you.


Let me guess, bogus charges from a sham (d) Congressional committee prior to getting crushed in the midterms - no one saw this coming.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> You're not asked to believe anything, I just presented Court testimony from a Military Doctor - obviously, you'll do what you want with the information.


One big time CEO of big pharmy say's anyone spreading misinformation about his vaccine is a criminal.  He decides as does his fact checkers what is misinformation and you can;t appeal to anyone.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Let me know the next time you go and see your primary care.  Also ask them to let you take a peek at the screen


I largely agree with you.  Dr's pushing pills. opioid crisis case in point.  Any new prescription, everyone should definitely check it out. If one avoids the worm holes (in the case of ivermectin, literally) there is good information for decision making.  The other thing people may not know is that for over the counters, the recommended dosage is likely to be way higher than the maximum physiologically effective dose for the active ingredient.  

Medicine is in tough shape. People have to be their own advocates. Our family is lucky in that we have pretty good insight into who the good Dr's are in our area.  Their take is that the biggest problem locally is doing good medicine at scale, like with tons of people.  With human and physical infrastructure straining at the seams. That and people trying to figure out how to navigate the system for anything that falls outside basic stuff.

My parents, who are getting on, live in the panhandle of FLA, and it is definitely worse there.  Predatory is the word that comes to mind.  Had to go out there last month to help deconvolve Dr. jabberwocky. And yes, I did cell phone snap the file on the screen.  Based on the info, google up their decision making tree.  Make sure all the relevant tests necessary for the decision making process are being done.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I largely agree with you.  Dr's pushing pills. opioid crisis case in point.  Any new prescription, everyone should definitely check it out. If one avoids the worm holes (in the case of ivermectin, literally) there is good information for decision making.  The other thing people may not know is that for over the counters, the recommended dosage is likely to be way higher than the maximum physiologically effective dose for the active ingredient.
> 
> Medicine is in tough shape. People have to be their own advocates. Our family is lucky in that we have pretty good insight into who the good Dr's are in our area.  Their take is that the biggest problem locally is doing good medicine at scale, like with tons of people.  With human and physical infrastructure straining at the seams. That and people trying to figure out how to navigate the system for anything that falls outside basic stuff.
> 
> My parents, who are getting on, live in the panhandle of FLA, and it is definitely worse there.  Predatory is the word that comes to mind.  Had to go out there last month to help deconvolve Dr. jabberwocky. And yes, I did cell phone snap the file on the screen.  Based on the info, google up their decision making tree.  Make sure all the relevant tests necessary for the decision making process are being done.


Are you a Pharmacist?  Sales Rep for Big Pharma?  I used to have to go find sales people at college jobs fair in the late 90s as a sales manager for Yellow Pages. These were our brightest and best and I was told by my boss to go find some talent with degrees.  She was old school and said only hire those with degrees.  I told I don't have a degree and she asked how I got hired.  I said I got hired because the #1 salesman in the company was my best friend and his word got me in.  I was the only one without a degree.  I got to know her boss ((The CEO)) and he loved me.  I told him my story of hard knocks and I had no degree and I was one of the top reps as well and now top sales manager.  He allowed me to hire a waitress who was a single mom that answered my ad in Riverside.  I loved her but my boss was all, "She has no degree, she smokes and she will fail." I went over her because of my gut and my intuition.  Her boss agreed and I was top manager.  I ended up hiring her best friend whose husband left her with three kids.  Strong JW and knew how to knock doors.  I also hired a Mormon fella who lost his wife to cancer and his job the same year.  These reps helped me when a trip and lot's of cash.  This YP company had huge turnover and I fixed it, by thinking outside the box.  Thought I would be authentic with you Evil


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Are you a Pharmacist?  Sales Rep for Big Pharma?


No.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I largely agree with you.  Dr's pushing pills. opioid crisis case in point.  Any new prescription, everyone should definitely check it out. If one avoids the worm holes (in the case of ivermectin, literally) there is good information for decision making.  The other thing people may not know is that for over the counters, the recommended dosage is likely to be way higher than the maximum physiologically effective dose for the active ingredient.
> 
> Medicine is in tough shape. People have to be their own advocates. Our family is lucky in that we have pretty good insight into who the good Dr's are in our area.  Their take is that the biggest problem locally is doing good medicine at scale, like with tons of people.  With human and physical infrastructure straining at the seams. That and people trying to figure out how to navigate the system for anything that falls outside basic stuff.
> 
> My parents, who are getting on, live in the panhandle of FLA, and it is definitely worse there.  Predatory is the word that comes to mind.  Had to go out there last month to help deconvolve Dr. jabberwocky. And yes, I did cell phone snap the file on the screen.  Based on the info, google up their decision making tree.  Make sure all the relevant tests necessary for the decision making process are being done.


No doubt the system is difficult to navigate.  OTC, behind OTC, and RX is a shit show, always has been.  Providers are best when they are able to leverage their experience and familiarity with their patient to provide the best comphrensive care.  In the case of ivm, it's been OK anectodally, when managed.  No cases I've ever heard where rx ivm went south.  It's either been good outcomes or neutral outcome.  Obviously not enough data to be impactful - but happens with many treatment options and recommendations for any ailment. 

I suppose my point is that Pharma is a dominant influence in public health, and we let it get there.


----------



## watfly

Not really a surprise.









						The states that FAILED to protect people from COVID
					

New York, California, New Jersey and Illinois were panned for their pandemic performance after bringing in draconian measures to shut their citizens in their homes.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				






			https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Not really a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The states that FAILED to protect people from COVID
> 
> 
> New York, California, New Jersey and Illinois were panned for their pandemic performance after bringing in draconian measures to shut their citizens in their homes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf


Denials by many in 3..2..1

*At least they say GAY!


----------



## MicPaPa

This one's a real head scratcher - can anyone figure out the common threads here?


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> This one's a real head scratcher - can anyone figure out the common threads here?
> 
> View attachment 13252


That chart does not appear in the NBER report.  The obvious question, then, is where did you copy it from?

"NBER working papers are circulated for discussion and comment purposes. They have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to the review by the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications."

The authors are well-known wingnut cranks.



			https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf


----------



## crush

More sad news from my favorite Thai place.  14 years in business and she looks like she will close before summer she says.  True story.  Before the Rona, place was packed, line outside to get in for dinner and lunch specials all day for $8.95 and everyone talking and having a great time.  Today, it;s just the mom and her son.  I took my wife for lunch today and will not be going back.  It's just sad and depressing.  You order at counter and she brings food in plastic dishes and plastic cups.  Lunch Special is now $13.95.  No one to wash the dishes and cook and bus tables and wait on table.  I gave her a big hug and thanked her.  She said people only order take out now and I dont have enough business like before.  Gas triple and food cost are going up up up.  She said people come by now to say goodbye. I gave her funny look and she says, "Ye, Goodbye, I move Texas, I move to Florida."  No joke.  
*ลาก่อนไปเท็กซัส
Lā k̀xn pị thĕksạs̄*


----------



## crush

*Is your church getting paid by the government to convince the flock to get injected?*

They reportedly get $10 for each person-to-person outreach including direct phone calls and text messages, direct social media messages, door-knocking campaigns, “and anything that involves one-on-one dialogue promoting the COVID-19 shot.”

The church or other nonprofit gets another $10 for each person who actually goes and rolls up his or her sleeve for the shot.

Plus, if you can covert them to Christ, you get 10% of their income, if they want to be in good standing with the church and the Lord.  Pay to play even at church.  Wow, what a wonderful world.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> That chart does not appear in the NBER report.  The obvious question, then, is where did you copy it from?
> 
> "NBER working papers are circulated for discussion and comment purposes. They have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to the review by the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications."
> 
> The authors are well-known wingnut cranks.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf


If you read the report you would have located the data-appendix link. But I get your MO, ad hominem the authors instead of addressing the data. Check.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> This one's a real head scratcher - can anyone figure out the common threads here?
> 
> View attachment 13252


Your list says: to avoid epidemics, you should live far away from other people.

FL is the only high pop density state in the left column.  There are no low pop density states in the right column.

Did you think it meant something else?


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> If you read the report you would have located the data-appendix link. But I get your MO, ad hominem the authors instead of addressing the data. Check.


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


Yes I did.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Your list says: to avoid epidemics, you should live far away from other people.
> 
> FL is the only high pop density state in the left column.  There are no low pop density states in the right column.
> 
> Did you think it meant something else?


Yeah, that's what it says.


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> Yes I did.


Oh, that's right.  You're that guy.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Oh, that's right.  You're that guy.


Says that guy - rich.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Yeah, that's what it says.


Look at the list of states.

In what way are Vermont, Maine, Montana, and Idaho different from New York, New Jersey, DC, Los Angeles and Chicago?

You've definitely proven that respiratory disease spreads better when you are nearer to other people.  

Congratulations.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Look at the list of states.
> 
> In what way are Vermont, Maine, Montana, and Idaho different from New York, New Jersey, DC, Los Angeles and Chicago?
> 
> You've definitely proven that respiratory disease spreads better when you are nearer to other people.
> 
> Congratulations.


There are plenty of low density states that received a D grade or worse and their are plenty of high density states that received a C or better.   Again your only considering Covid results, where this study is looking at multiple factors that determines successful health policy.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> There are plenty of low density states that received a D grade or worse and their are plenty of high density states that received a C or better.   Again your only considering Covid results, where this study is looking at multiple factors that determines successful health policy.


If you look carefully at the study mechanism, it has the earmarks of choosing factors and analysis equations to give the desired result.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> If you look carefully at the study mechanism, it has the earmarks of choosing factors and analysis equations to give the desired result.


For example?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> For example?


To adjust a pandemic outcome from the industry composition of its economy, we use the following multivariate linear regression equation. ys=α+xsβ+es where β is vector of coefficients, one coefficient for each of the share variables in xs. Because the share variables and the regression residual have mean zero among the fifty states and DC, α is the national average outcome y. We interpret xsβ as the part of the outcome explained by industry composition and ys - xsβ =α+es as the outcome adjusted for industry (or health) composition. We estimate α and β using ordinary least squares in the pre-pandemic data for the fifty states and DC. 

For our GDP by state component, we used the same regression method with the vector elements Mining, Oil and Gas, Accommodations and Food, and Arts and Entertainment. 

Because COVID infection mortality risk is extremely age-related -- 8700 times higher in age 85+ than in 5 to 17, according to the CDC – we applied an age-adjustment to the number of observed deaths in each age group to bring the numbers in line with a standard U.S. population. Because CDC suppresses totals of less than 10, we combined ages less than 35, but because there are few deaths in that age range it should not affect the accuracy of the adjustment. 

To further adjust these numbers for substantial differences in metabolic health across states, we applied the same regression methodology we used in the economic section to the age-standardized rates above using CDC-reported prevalence of obesity and diabetes, the conditions most strongly correlated with COVID-associated deaths. 

etc, etc, etc


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> To adjust a pandemic outcome from the industry composition of its economy, we use the following multivariate linear regression equation. ys=α+xsβ+es where β is vector of coefficients, one coefficient for each of the share variables in xs. Because the share variables and the regression residual have mean zero among the fifty states and DC, α is the national average outcome y. We interpret xsβ as the part of the outcome explained by industry composition and ys - xsβ =α+es as the outcome adjusted for industry (or health) composition. We estimate α and β using ordinary least squares in the pre-pandemic data for the fifty states and DC.
> 
> For our GDP by state component, we used the same regression method with the vector elements Mining, Oil and Gas, Accommodations and Food, and Arts and Entertainment.
> 
> Because COVID infection mortality risk is extremely age-related -- 8700 times higher in age 85+ than in 5 to 17, according to the CDC – we applied an age-adjustment to the number of observed deaths in each age group to bring the numbers in line with a standard U.S. population. Because CDC suppresses totals of less than 10, we combined ages less than 35, but because there are few deaths in that age range it should not affect the accuracy of the adjustment.
> 
> To further adjust these numbers for substantial differences in metabolic health across states, we applied the same regression methodology we used in the economic section to the age-standardized rates above using CDC-reported prevalence of obesity and diabetes, the conditions most strongly correlated with COVID-associated deaths.
> 
> etc, etc, etc


Not sure how that skews it to a desired outcome.  It appears that the Covid adjustments may have actually worked against some low density states which dispels Dad4's theory.  See Montana and South Dakota ranking in the bottom 10 on Covid factors.

To be perfectly honest with you, the math is way above my head, but the factors they adjusted for seem perfectly reasonable.  It seems fair to Hawaii to adjust for industry composition and not overly penalize them because they rely on tourism.  Why do you believe the adjustments are not reasonable?  They appear to work both ways regardless of a red or blue state.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> To adjust a pandemic outcome from the industry composition of its economy, we use the following multivariate linear regression equation. ys=α+xsβ+es where β is vector of coefficients, one coefficient for each of the share variables in xs. Because the share variables and the regression residual have mean zero among the fifty states and DC, α is the national average outcome y. We interpret xsβ as the part of the outcome explained by industry composition and ys - xsβ =α+es as the outcome adjusted for industry (or health) composition. We estimate α and β using ordinary least squares in the pre-pandemic data for the fifty states and DC.
> 
> For our GDP by state component, we used the same regression method with the vector elements Mining, Oil and Gas, Accommodations and Food, and Arts and Entertainment.
> 
> Because COVID infection mortality risk is extremely age-related -- 8700 times higher in age 85+ than in 5 to 17, according to the CDC – we applied an age-adjustment to the number of observed deaths in each age group to bring the numbers in line with a standard U.S. population. Because CDC suppresses totals of less than 10, we combined ages less than 35, but because there are few deaths in that age range it should not affect the accuracy of the adjustment.
> 
> To further adjust these numbers for substantial differences in metabolic health across states, we applied the same regression methodology we used in the economic section to the age-standardized rates above using CDC-reported prevalence of obesity and diabetes, the conditions most strongly correlated with COVID-associated deaths.
> 
> etc, etc, etc


If you want to make group A look better than group B, all you need to do is correct for the factors which put group A at a disdvantage.

So, if you want to make blue state policies look good, you correct for population density and timing of first wave.

If you want to make red state policies look good, you correct for obesity rates and population age.

Actual researchers won’t be fooled.  But it works if your goal is to have a nice headline in NYT or WSJ.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Not sure how that skews it to a desired outcome.  It appears that the Covid adjustments may have actually worked against some low density states which dispels Dad4's theory.  See Montana and South Dakota ranking in the bottom 10 on Covid factors.
> 
> To be perfectly honest with you, the math is way above my head, but the factors they adjusted for seem perfectly reasonable.  It seems fair to Hawaii to adjust for industry composition and not overly penalize them because they rely on tourism.  Why do you believe the adjustments are not reasonable?  They appear to work both ways regardless of a red or blue state.


It would take someone trained and skilled in the field to review their methods properly.  The disclaimer on the first page more or less declares that this is just an unreviewed "working paper" being passed around for comments.  From the results found in simple internet searches, it appears that it has become a favorite among certain political circles, which I must assume was the authors' intent.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> If you want to make group A look better than group B, all you need to do is correct for the factors which put group A at a disdvantage.
> 
> So, if you want to make blue state policies look good, you correct for population density and timing of first wave.
> 
> If you want to make red state policies look good, you correct for obesity rates and population age.
> 
> Actual researchers won’t be fooled.  But it works if your goal is to have a nice headline in NYT or WSJ.


You said it better than I did.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you want to make group A look better than group B, all you need to do is correct for the factors which put group A at a disdvantage.
> 
> So, if you want to make blue state policies look good, you correct for population density and timing of first wave.
> 
> If you want to make red state policies look good, you correct for obesity rates and population age.
> 
> Actual researchers won’t be fooled.  But it works if your goal is to have a nice headline in NYT or WSJ.


Again your only looking at one factor, there are economic and education factors.  The great irony is you want to adjust for population density because it favors blue states.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Again your only looking at one factor, there are economic and education factors.  The great irony is you want to adjust for population density because it favors blue states.


You got it.  Adjusting for pop density without adjusting for obesity would be a way to favor blue states.   Just don’t count me as advocating that position.

My gut is you need to adjust for all four.   Or restrict your analysis to more comparable places.  The correlation between politics and population density is just too strong.  You can do good work, thinking you are looking at one, and it turns out you’re really seeing the other.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you want to make group A look better than group B, all you need to do is correct for the factors which put group A at a disdvantage.
> 
> So, if you want to make blue state policies look good, you correct for population density and timing of first wave.
> 
> If you want to make red state policies look good, you correct for obesity rates and population age.
> 
> Actual researchers won’t be fooled.  But it works if your goal is to have a nice headline in NYT or WSJ.


Your claims don't match the results in terms of Covid.

The study rated Montana as the 10th worst for Covid results while Montana has the 25th worst deaths per capita.  The study rated South Dakota 6 worst for Covid results while it has the 22 worst deaths per capita.  How does that favor Red States?  It doesn't, its the exact opposite of what your claiming.  As it turns out of the top 10 overall, 5 were rated worse in the study than there rating for per capita deaths.  So 5 were rated better, including Maine, a blue state.  So it seems even handed treatment.

While I don't doubt there may be bias in the study, there is inherent bias in every study.  Your claims don't add up.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Again your only looking at one factor, there are economic and education factors.  The great irony is you want to adjust for population density because it favors blue states.


It appears that you agree that the factors can be adjusted to yield the desired result.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Your claims don't match the results in terms of Covid.
> 
> The study rated Montana as the 10th worst for Covid results while Montana has the 25th worst deaths per capita.  The study rated South Dakota 6 worst for Covid results while it has the 22 worst deaths per capita.  How does that favor Red States?  It doesn't, its the exact opposite of what your claiming.  As it turns out of the top 10 overall, 5 were rated worse in the study than there rating for per capita deaths.  So 5 were rated better, including Maine, a blue state.  So it seems even handed treatment.
> 
> While I don't doubt there may be bias in the study, there is inherent bias in every study.  Your claims don't add up.


In order to overcome the "inherent bias in every study", most economic and sociological studies of this type are submitted for peer review.  Political studies don't bother with that effort.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> It appears that you agree that the factors can be adjusted to yield the desired result.


Yep, bigger no shit.  But that doesn't mean it happened in this case.  There is no evidence from the results that the methodology for ranking Covid factors inherently benefitted red states.  In fact, it appears that it may have worked against low density red states.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yep, bigger no shit.  But that doesn't mean it happened in this case.  There is no evidence from the results that the methodology for ranking Covid factors inherently benefitted red states.  In fact, it appears that it may have worked against low density red states.


I am sure the authors are pleased that their results are being favored by their intended audience.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I am sure the authors are pleased that their results are being favored by their intended audience.


Or being disparaged with emotions and not facts by those who don't like the results.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Or being disparaged with emotions and not facts by those who don't like the results.


Emotions?


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Emotions?


Yes, emotions - in the mean girl name calling sense.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Look at the list of states.
> 
> In what way are Vermont, Maine, Montana, and Idaho different from New York, New Jersey, DC, Los Angeles and Chicago?
> 
> You've definitely proven that respiratory disease spreads better when you are nearer to other people.
> 
> Congratulations.


It's states not cities, like FL and TX.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Emotions?


I consider ad hominem attacks to be emotional responses.


----------



## crush

*Zuckerberg millions won't be part of mid-term elections, says it was a 'one-time' thing*
*A rep for Zuckerberg said the 2020 funds were 'a one-time donation'*


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I consider ad hominem attacks to be emotional responses.


I don't consider a statement of fact about a person to be an "attack".


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> I don't consider a statement of fact about a person to be an "attack".


Ok then dumbass.  (I say that as a term of endearment)


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Ok then dumbass.  (I say that as a term of endearment)


You seem to have brought this discussion down to a level where you feel comfortable.


----------



## crush

*“No Floridian will be restricted, mandated or locked down in any possible way.”*

*- Governor Ron DeSantis *


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> It would take someone trained and skilled in the field to review their methods properly.  The disclaimer on the first page more or less declares that this is just an unreviewed "working paper" being passed around for comments.  From the results found in simple internet searches, it appears that it has become a favorite among certain political circles, which I must assume was the authors' intent.


There are think tanks running test groups, there are experts in data manipulation, there are scientists paid to skew research, there are media outlets looking for brand loyalty and more clicks etc etc. Navigating through that kind of gauntlet isn’t for the impressionable and weak minded. Speaking of, the internet and social media is packed with experts on a variety of subjects that decide what they want to believe despite what actual professionals and real life experts say. What a world we live in!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> It would take someone trained and skilled in the field to review their methods properly.  The disclaimer on the first page more or less declares that this is just an unreviewed "working paper" being passed around for comments.  From the results found in simple internet searches, it appears that it has become a favorite among certain political circles, which I must assume was the authors' intent.


But it just takes one fool to believe the hype and spread it to likeminded fools.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> You seem to have brought this discussion down to a level where you feel comfortable.


Apparently it wasn't as funny as I thought it was.   You continue to take me way too seriously.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You seem to have brought this discussion down to a level where you feel comfortable.


Which is till we’ll above your standards!


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> But it just takes one fool to believe the hype and spread it to likeminded fools.


You oughta know Daffy....


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Which is till we’ll above your standards!


Autocorrect?


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> It's states not cities, like FL and TX.


About half the population of Illinois is in the Chicago area.  And over half the population of California is in the giant urban blob around LA.

If you are looking at disease and disease control measures, that’s what matters.  The CA disease and economy results weren’t driven by Redding.


----------



## crush

I am hearing about some gnarly 'Reptilian/Snake DNA" that got in some cocktails.  If you find it easier to swim under water without coming up for a breath, then you might be part Reptilian now.  I said this over two years ago, be careful what you inject in your blood.  Please everyone, know what you take before you inject!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Autocorrect?


Yep…got me again…but you get the point….


----------



## crush

*"Now a woman, for me, is handling your own but knowing how to cater to a man's needs. Right?'' 
"And I think a lot of times when you get that aesthetic of like, 'I'm a boss b----, I'm this, I'm that.'
"No, baby! You can't cook. You don't know when to be quiet. You don't know how to allow a man to lead."*


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> There are think tanks running test groups, there are experts in data manipulation, there are scientists paid to skew research, there are media outlets looking for brand loyalty and more clicks etc etc. Navigating through that kind of gauntlet isn’t for the impressionable and weak minded. Speaking of, the internet and social media is packed with experts on a variety of subjects that decide what they want to believe despite what actual professionals and real life experts say. What a world we live in!


are you attempting to describe the CDC and the FDA?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> But it just takes one fool to believe the hype and spread it to likeminded fools.


sound familiar?  Remember when fools spread the word that vaccines provided immunity and prevented transmission?  Was that scientifically backed or a manipulation of data by experts?  a basic misunderstanding of what they were looking at?  or was it financially driven?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> are you attempting to describe the CDC and the FDA?


Excellent rebuttal Q.  Did you hear about the snake venom?  Bat, Monkey, Human, Bird and now Snake.  The List keeps growing.  No need to go to one of those Brazilian BBQ and all you can eat meat place.  It's in the blood now.  Plus plastic.  Blood clot is the new normal.  Bell Palsy is through the roof. Not fun when you can't feel half your face.  I am praying for everyone you guys.  All of us are in this together.  I am here for those who need help or someone to talk to.  We will get through this together.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> It appears that you agree that the factors can be adjusted to yield the desired result.


You've just described the last two years.


----------



## crush

Someone falls over at the vax center from their shot...does anyone step out of line? Hell no.
					

Why would they want to lose their place in line over someone dying? They have been there all morning and come death or damnation they are going to get their shot! Source: SixthSense. More videos, so that make more sense than this and some that do no…




					www.bitchute.com
				




People in line think this is normal, meaning that some unlucky person will have adverse reaction and you just hope your not one of the unlucky ones. If you play a high level sport that runs a lot, please have your blood looked at.  My nephew just told me he has blood clots and it blocked his window heart and that is why he felt so much burining on his heart that he got to the hospital.  His blood is like sludge and trying to make it through his body and in his brain.  He is on blood thinner now and forever and he says he still has clots cruising in his blood.  He ate too much meat you guys plus other unhealthy decisions, unhealthy medicine because he was obese and his Doc prescribed it all.  He laughed at me and told me, "Crush, you were 100% right and I am all ears."  I am going up with my wife to encourage him and teach him how to love food without meat.  He also told me no more booze.  He said when he was in ER and then ICU, he kept thinking about, "this is it" and "I am not ready to die.  I am not ready to find out what's on the other side" and "Please God, give me another chance to do right and be right with you."  He said sorry to me and I said sorry to him.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> About half the population of Illinois is in the Chicago area.  And over half the population of California is in the giant urban blob around LA.
> 
> If you are looking at disease and disease control measures, that’s what matters.  The CA disease and economy results weren’t driven by Redding.


No, I'm looking at the study we are discussing. You did read the study, right? If so, you would know adjustments were made for population, age, obesity, diabetes - to name a few.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> No, I'm looking at the study we are discussing. You did read the study, right? If so, you would know adjustments were made for population, age, obesity, diabetes - to name a few.


And as I mentioned those adjustments tended to work against red states in the study.   Some favor smoke and red herrings over reality.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> No, I'm looking at the study we are discussing. You did read the study, right? If so, you would know adjustments were made for population, age, obesity, diabetes - to name a few.


If I were trying to create a study to argue for red state covid policies, I also would correct for population, age, obesity and diabetes.  (Watfly has it flipped on the last three.  If something hyour side, correcting for it makes your side look better.)

I would not correct for population density, multi-family households, timing of first wave, or dominant variant. 

They’re playing the game of “cheat at statistics“, and they’re playing it about five levels above your head.



watfly said:


> And as I mentioned those adjustments tended to work against red states in the study.   Some favor smoke and red herrings over reality.


You have it flipped.  If group A has some disadvantage, then correcting for it makes group A look better.   

Best example of this is Florida.  Florida looks pretty bad on raw covid numbers.  Their large elderly population puts them at a disadvantage.   Once you correct for age, they look a lot better.  The correction removed the disadvantage.

You could do the same thing for LA.  LA has the disadvantage of multi-family low income households.  If you correct for multi-family homes, LA will look better.  Same thing: the correction removes the disadvantage.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> If I were trying to create a study to argue for red state covid policies, I also would correct for population, age, obesity and diabetes.  (Watfly has it flipped on the last three.  If something hyour side, correcting for it makes your side look better.)
> 
> I would not correct for population density, multi-family households, timing of first wave, or dominant variant.
> 
> They’re playing the game of “cheat at statistics“, and they’re playing it about five levels above your head.
> 
> 
> You have it flipped.  If group A has some disadvantage, then correcting for it makes group A look better.
> 
> Best example of this is Florida.  Florida looks pretty bad on raw covid numbers.  Their large elderly population puts them at a disadvantage.   Once you correct for age, they look a lot better.  The correction removed the disadvantage.
> 
> You could do the same thing for LA.  LA has the disadvantage of multi-family low income households.  If you correct for multi-family homes, LA will look better.  Same thing: the correction removes the disadvantage.


----------



## crush

*17 L.A. gangs have sent out crews to follow and rob city's wealthiest, LAPD says*
L.A. gangs are sending out crews to prey on the mega-rich, targeting people leaving luxury boutiques, restaurants, and nightclubs, the LAPD said. 

More than a dozen Los Angeles gangs are targeting some of the city's wealthiest residents in a new and aggressive manner, sending out crews in multiple cars to find, follow and rob people driving high-end vehicles or wearing expensive jewelry, according to police.

In many cases, they're making off with designer handbags, diamond-studded watches and other items worth tens of thousands of dollars — if not more — and then peddling them to black-market buyers who are willing to turn a blind eye to the underlying violence, police said.

This is insane you guys.  One of wife's friends lives right next to Beverly Hills and is not that wealthy at all but her neighbors are super rich that live in BH.  Two of them have been robbed at gun point the last month.  Another one gives a guy money every week to keep him happy and to tell the others to back off.  It's like her body guard so to be speak.  All of them are moving.  It's not safe anymore.  People make $15 an hour and spend it all on gas and food.  You used to be able to rent a room for $700.  Not now.  $1400 and this is in a rough area where others put up a tent and live rent free.  My old neighbor in Temecula is renting out his one bedroom studio casita for $2300 a month.  His mortgage is $1900.  He lives in his huge house for free now and some other young couple is paying his mortgage.  You can't make this up.  Dude's house was worth $395,000 back in 2012 when he bought it at a discount and just got appraised for over $800,000.  Nice pool and back yard and everyone is happy.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If I were trying to create a study to argue for red state covid policies, I also would correct for population, age, obesity and diabetes.  (Watfly has it flipped on the last three.  If something hyour side, correcting for it makes your side look better.)
> 
> I would not correct for population density, multi-family households, timing of first wave, or dominant variant.
> 
> They’re playing the game of “cheat at statistics“, and they’re playing it about five levels above your head.
> 
> 
> You have it flipped.  If group A has some disadvantage, then correcting for it makes group A look better.
> 
> Best example of this is Florida.  Florida looks pretty bad on raw covid numbers.  Their large elderly population puts them at a disadvantage.   Once you correct for age, they look a lot better.  The correction removed the disadvantage.
> 
> You could do the same thing for LA.  LA has the disadvantage of multi-family low income households.  If you correct for multi-family homes, LA will look better.  Same thing: the correction removes the disadvantage.


Cherry picking again.  Look at the actual results.   For the top 10 overall there were 5 red states significantly disadvantaged by the study's Covid adjustments.  There were 4 red states and the one blue state that were slightly advantaged by the studies adjustments.

Again more smoke and mirrors and red herrings.

I get it, you don't like the results, but don't mischaracterize what the results say.  Studies are observations based on a particular methodology.  Studies as we have found out aren't necessarily facts.  Prospective studies are guesstimates at best.  Historical studies have far more credibility.  As of now you have failed to show that the Covid adjustments favored red states.   Sorry but calling the study authors "wingnuts" or mischaracterizing the results of the study doesn't prove your case, it actually diminishes the credibility of your argument.


----------



## crush

*"They better fear ever coming after my kids. I'll let you come after me all you want to. You leave my family alone. We will die for our families. That's what they don't understand, these liberals and people running our country. There is a fierce love and dedication and responsibility that we have as parents that you step over that line and you start messing with my kid, there is no boundaries anymore between us...
Whatever look I have in my eye right now is because I know what I'm saying I'm feeling it down in my guts, that it is what tens of millions if not more Americans are feeling right now, regardless of their politics...You mess with our kids you've got a world of hurt coming your way this fall."  *A father named John


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Cherry picking again.  Look at the actual results.   For the top 10 overall there were 5 red states significantly disadvantaged by the study's Covid adjustments.  There were 4 red states and the one blue state that were slightly advantaged by the studies adjustments.
> 
> Again more smoke and mirrors and red herrings.
> 
> I get it, you don't like the results, but don't mischaracterize what the results say.  Studies are observations based on a particular methodology.  Studies as we have found out aren't necessarily facts.  Prospective studies are guesstimates at best.  Historical studies have far more credibility.  As of now you have failed to show that the Covid adjustments favored red states.   Sorry but calling the study authors "wingnuts" or mischaracterizing the results of the study doesn't prove your case, it actually diminishes the credibility of your argument.


Two of the authors had established their wingnut reputations well before concocting this piece.   You can look it up.  

The third has only suggested that paid sick leave is a bad idea.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Two of the authors had established their wingnut reputations well before concocting this piece.   You can look it up.
> 
> The third has only suggested that paid sick leave is a bad idea.


Thank you for proving my point.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Thank you for proving my point.


Did you look it up?


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> Thank you for proving my point.


He's good at it, consistent with his knack for stepping on rakes.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Two of the authors had established their wingnut reputations well before concocting this piece.   You can look it up.
> 
> The third has only suggested that paid sick leave is a bad idea.


Rich - coming from an established reputation of avoiding the message by attacking the messenger. Look it up!


----------



## espola

MicPaPa said:


> Rich - coming from an established reputation of avoiding the message by attacking the messenger. Look it up!


You didn't read the thread?  I spent a good deal of effort dissecting the meat of the message.  In addition, I answered all questions of any consequence. 

Meanwhile, you still haven't disclosed the source of the cute little chart you copied.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> And as I mentioned those adjustments tended to work against red states in the study.   Some favor smoke and red herrings over reality.


the most difficult thing for some people is to admit they were wrong, and/or fooled. Heels are dug in and there's no changing


----------



## crush

baldref said:


> the most difficult thing for some people is to admit they were wrong, and/or fooled. Heels are dug in and there's no changing


100% baldref.  I knew this minister that thought he was right about everything.  When my dd was getting really into youth soccer and we missed a few Sunday services, the Minister asked to speak with me.  This is after one of the Deacons wife told my wife that her and her hubby are praying that my dd would pick God & Church over Soccer and Satan on Sundays.  We had this intense back and forth.  I was super respectful and so was he.  However, he dug his heal over a scripture about not missing church.  I pointed out how he was taking the scripture completely out of context and he got all red in the face. I started to ask him some questions and he really dug his heals in.  I told him he should focus on his son first before going after my dd for missing a few services.  His boy was up to no good at the church and I told him that to his face in a loving way.  Truth is, my dd was influential and if she missed, the other kids wanted to miss as well and he also didn;t want other kids who played sports to miss his services and the collection plate.  He got paid when people showed up.  This is all before Pay to pay online came on board.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> are you attempting to describe the CDC and the FDA?


Whiny little thing aren’t ya?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> sound familiar?  Remember when fools spread the word that vaccines provided immunity and prevented transmission?  Was that scientifically backed or a manipulation of data by experts?  a basic misunderstanding of what they were looking at?  or was it financially driven?


Yep, whiny.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> *Cherry picking again.*  Look at the actual results.   For the top 10 overall there were 5 red states significantly disadvantaged by the study's Covid adjustments.  There were 4 red states and the one blue state that were slightly advantaged by the studies adjustments.
> 
> Again *more smoke and mirrors and red herrings.*
> 
> I get it, you *don't like the results,* but don't mischaracterize what the results say.  Studies are observations based on a particular methodology.  Studies as we have found out aren't necessarily facts.  Prospective studies are guesstimates at best.  Historical studies have far more credibility.  As of now you have failed to show that the Covid adjustments favored red states.   Sorry but calling the study authors "wingnuts" or mischaracterizing the results of the study doesn't prove your case, it actually diminishes the credibility of your argument.


You keep asserting things about which states are and are not disadvantaged by certain adjustments.  But you never explain your logic.  And you certainly never address the question of putting your thumb on the scale by excluding certain adjustments.

Instead, you assert something, and then move into attacking my motives.  (don’t like the results, smoke and mirrors, cherry picking, red herring, and so on.)

If you have your own argument, make it.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Whiny little thing aren’t ya?


Your typical go to non-answer. Shocked!


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You keep asserting things about which states are and are not disadvantaged by certain adjustments.  But you never explain your logic.  And you certainly never address the question of putting your thumb on the scale by excluding certain adjustments.
> 
> Instead, you assert something, and then move into attacking my motives.  (don’t like the results, smoke and mirrors, cherry picking, red herring, and so on.)
> 
> If you have your own argument, make it.


Let me help you dad.  California wanted everyone forced to get the jab or you got fired.  Florida was the opposite and actually supported folks like me. If I was in Florida I would be working my ass off like I always did before the Rona and forced jab.  Every small business I Know either went OB or are about to.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> Your typical go to non-answer. Shocked!


They all learned from Bill


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> You didn't read the thread?  I spent a good deal of effort dissecting the meat of the message.  In addition, I answered all questions of any consequence.
> 
> Meanwhile, you still haven't disclosed the source of the cute little chart you copied.



I know better than to play along  with your circular response game - but, for the second time,  here is the source:


MicPaPa said:


> If you read the report you would have located the data-appendix link. But I get your MO, ad hominem the authors instead of addressing the data. Check.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> If I were trying to create a study to argue for red state covid policies, I also would correct for population, age, obesity and diabetes.  (Watfly has it flipped on the last three.  If something hyour side, correcting for it makes your side look better.)
> 
> I would not correct for population density, multi-family households, timing of first wave, or dominant variant.
> 
> They’re playing the game of “cheat at statistics“, and they’re playing it about five levels above your head.
> 
> 
> You have it flipped.  If group A has some disadvantage, then correcting for it makes group A look better.
> 
> Best example of this is Florida.  Florida looks pretty bad on raw covid numbers.  Their large elderly population puts them at a disadvantage.   Once you correct for age, they look a lot better.  The correction removed the disadvantage.
> 
> You could do the same thing for LA.  LA has the disadvantage of multi-family low income households.  If you correct for multi-family homes, LA will look better.  Same thing: the correction removes the disadvantage.


Which science are you focused on here? Seems to be political science, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You didn't read the thread?  I spent a good deal of effort dissecting the meat of the message.  In addition, I answered all questions of any consequence.
> 
> Meanwhile, you still haven't disclosed the source of the cute little chart you copied.


Funniest post yet…


----------



## met61

baldref said:


> the most difficult thing for some people is to admit they were wrong, and/or fooled. Heels are dug in and there's no changing


...belief and faith are designed into the human condition...where belief and faith are placed, is a matter of free will...Covid has shown how easily belief and faith can be co-opted by government...imagine willfully permitting the government to experiment and damage oneself...worse yet, ones own kids. Of course, anything highlighting these government failures and frauds will induce irrational and personal attacks.

Behold Holy Week...His name is above all others.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...belief and faith are designed into the human condition...where belief and faith are placed, is a matter of free will...Covid has shown how easily belief and faith can be co-opted by government...imagine willfully permitting the government to experiment and damage oneself...worse yet, ones own kids. Of course, anything highlighting these government failures and frauds will induce irrational and personal attacks.
> 
> Behold Holy Week...His name is above all others.


Praise Yeshua and his RETURN.  I am shocked how fast people just followed orders in Socal.  I don;t judge at all those who took the jab.  Everyone got plenty of heads up and everyone made their choice.  I was shocked that people were willing to fire folks for saying no to it and this fall no enroll unless jabbed.  These two took me by surprise.  I watched the riots unfold live on my TEL A VISION back in the summer of 2020 and I saw police in Santa Monica stand by as white dudes with hammers and crow bars went to town smashing windows.  They told people who were standing around to go right in and steal and help themselves.  It looked staged and still does.  Now the mailman can;t deliver the mail in Santa Monica because criminals are lying in wait to steal and mug and rob and sometimes looking to rape.  Robbery is through the roof.  Maybe someone from espola's neighborhood could find out the true stat on crime in LA and the South Bay.  These criminals were let out during the early stage of over crowding the prison with Covid.  It's not safe in parts of LA or other large cities.  No one has money and if they do, they try and keep it.  Yesterday I was in LA County where my in laws live and a guy came towards me with his right hand in a jacket pocket.  I decided to stair right at him with eyes at his eyes as we were going to pass on the sidewalk.  He had a mask on as well.  I had this butterfly feeling that he was going to pull a gun out, I swear   He didn't, he asked if I had $1, I kid you not.  I did not have any cash, just my backpack and my debit card.  I feel crime in the air and more and more people are SOL and need food to eat.  These are homeless and for some, it's no fault of their own.  Many kids get kicked out of these foster care places when they turn 18.  I knew a kid who was a psychopath and they threw him out when he turn 18.  The guy is now in Prison.
No one likes me right now in my past circles. Old church is telling people to get the jab because it's the right thing to do.  Old friends warn members to watch out for me and that I am all New Age and Peace and Love and Crystals.  My wife and I will have church at the beach this Sunday with my dd.  I will bring some old and add some new teachings and  worship the Creator, thank Yeshua for going the distance and thanking the spiritual realm for all their help, especially Michael.  God bless you Met61 and Happy Easter.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yep, whiny.


whiny?


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Whiny little thing aren’t ya?


are you insinuating, because of my chromosomes, that I am small and of high pitched voice? a little toxic masculinity emittance? 

But I get it, insults are your default when intellect escapes you.  common ailment of small minded liberal men.


----------



## crush

RIP Champ.  Another top stud dying of a heart attack.  I swear you guys, this is happening way too often with young men.  I pray for his family.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> He's good at it, consistent with his knack for stepping on rakes.


I always say he serves up softballs, but I concede that "stepping on rakes" is more accurate and the visual is better..."thwack".


----------



## met61

crush said:


> Praise Yeshua and his RETURN.  I am shocked how fast people just followed orders in Socal.  I don;t judge at all those who took the jab.  Everyone got plenty of heads up and everyone made their choice.  I was shocked that people were willing to fire folks for saying no to it and this fall no enroll unless jabbed.  These two took me by surprise.  I watched the riots unfold live on my TEL A VISION back in the summer of 2020 and I saw police in Santa Monica stand by as white dudes with hammers and crow bars went to town smashing windows.  They told people who were standing around to go right in and steal and help themselves.  It looked staged and still does.  Now the mailman can;t deliver the mail in Santa Monica because criminals are lying in wait to steal and mug and rob and sometimes looking to rape.  Robbery is through the roof.  Maybe someone from espola's neighborhood could find out the true stat on crime in LA and the South Bay.  These criminals were let out during the early stage of over crowding the prison with Covid.  It's not safe in parts of LA or other large cities.  No one has money and if they do, they try and keep it.  Yesterday I was in LA County where my in laws live and a guy came towards me with his right hand in a jacket pocket.  I decided to stair right at him with eyes at his eyes as we were going to pass on the sidewalk.  He had a mask on as well.  I had this butterfly feeling that he was going to pull a gun out, I swear   He didn't, he asked if I had $1, I kid you not.  I did not have any cash, just my backpack and my debit card.  I feel crime in the air and more and more people are SOL and need food to eat.  These are homeless and for some, it's no fault of their own.  Many kids get kicked out of these foster care places when they turn 18.  I knew a kid who was a psychopath and they threw him out when he turn 18.  The guy is now in Prison.
> No one likes me right now in my past circles. Old church is telling people to get the jab because it's the right thing to do.  Old friends warn members to watch out for me and that I am all New Age and Peace and Love and Crystals.  My wife and I will have church at the beach this Sunday with my dd.  I will bring some old and add some new teachings and  worship the Creator, thank Yeshua for going the distance and thanking the spiritual realm for all their help, especially Michael.  God bless you Met61 and Happy Easter.


...I often ask God, if he won't be sending Jesus down anytime soon...could he at least send Ronald Regan.

...seriously, living Truth and faith is easy when you look around at the alternatives...pay no mind to what others say, we are all flawed, and a church is just a structure...where you worship is not important, just that you worship.  

...God Bless and Happy Easter to you and yours...Be well.


----------



## MicPaPa

what-happened said:


> are you insinuating, because of my chromosomes, that I am small and of high pitched voice? a little toxic masculinity emittance?
> 
> But I get it, insults are your default when intellect escapes you.  common ailment of small minded liberal men.


Fact Check: TRUE


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> ...I often ask God, if he won't be sending Jesus down anytime soon...could he at least send Ronald Regan.
> 
> ...seriously, living Truth and faith is easy when you look around at the alternatives...pay no mind to what others say, we are all flawed, and a church is just a structure...where you worship is not important, just that you worship.
> 
> ...God Bless and Happy Easter to you and yours...Be well.


I am telling the Creator every hour ((no joke)) that this place is insane, we need back up and help NOW!!!!!!  No more waiting.  Only the Creator knows when Yeshua will come back and set up shop for 1000 years.  I am telling the Creator it is time, now is the time.  I can;t guess because no one knows but man, I think it's soon and very soon, we will all see the Lord in his Splendor.  I tell everyone, get your heart open, confess, clean up and then go and help others that need help.  No judging others.


----------



## crush

Good news for the Delta non-jabbed workers.  They dont have to cough up that $200 extra surcharge each month anymore.  Cases have dropped, yay   Keep your receipts.  One guy was crying with his wife about the good news.  Dude has to drive 80 miles to work each way in his truck.  It's cost $50 a day in gas to get to work, plus starbucks $3.50, plus eating out with the fellas for lunch, now he's looking at $70 a day so he can work.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Funniest post yet…


@Grace T. is missing out on her favorite comedy.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> vaccines provided immunity and prevented transmission-Was that scientifically backed


Yes.


----------



## MicPaPa

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yes.


You mean after the CDC recently changed the longstanding definition of vaccine & vaccination, right?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

MicPaPa said:


> You mean after the CDC recently changed the longstanding definition of vaccine & vaccination, right?


I mean both before and after VOCs delta and omicron (both the chocolate and vanilla flavors).  On the one hand, the original vaccines (Western vaccines) held up surprisingly well as we went from a virus with an R of 2 to an R of 10+.  What was originally feared (and oversold in the click media) as "immune escape" for omicron turned out in reality to be "antigenic drift". On the other hand, the promise of mRNA vaccine technology  to keep pace with VOCs was not realized, leading to the need for boosters to keep neutralizing Ab titers high to prevent infection.

If we are lucky, and omicron is the last VOC before Cov-2 settles down into a new seasonal cold coronavirus, the good news is that the extant vaccines should provide strong long-term, cell-mediated immunity to any Ace2-directed C-virus that jumps out of the new biological resevoirs that have been established around the globe.  That is what our kids will be dealing with going forward.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> are you insinuating, because of my chromosomes, that I am small and of high pitched voice? a little toxic masculinity emittance?
> 
> But I get it, insults are your default when intellect escapes you.  common ailment of small minded liberal men.


No, whiny as in a crybaby/snowflake sorta way.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...belief and faith are designed into the human condition...where belief and faith are placed, is a matter of free will...Covid has shown how easily belief and faith can be co-opted by government...imagine willfully permitting the government to experiment and damage oneself...worse yet, ones own kids. Of course, anything highlighting these government failures and frauds will induce irrational and personal attacks.
> 
> Behold Holy Week...His name is above all others.


Who?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...I often ask God, if he won't be sending Jesus down anytime soon...could he at least send Ronald Regan.
> 
> ...seriously, living Truth and faith is easy when you look around at the alternatives...pay no mind to what others say, we are all flawed, and a church is just a structure...where you worship is not important, just that you worship.
> 
> ...God Bless and Happy Easter to you and yours...Be well.


Who is Ronald Regan?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Elon Musk offers to buy Twitter, take it private so free speech can rule our land again.*


"I invested in Twitter as I believe in its potential to be the platform for free speech around the globe, and I believe free speech is a societal imperative for a functioning democracy," Musk wrote. "However, since making my investment I now realize the company will neither thrive nor serve this societal imperative in its current form."


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who is Ronald Regan?


Love child of Ronald Reagan and Donald Regan.


----------



## crush




----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> RIP Champ.  Another top stud dying of a heart attack.  I swear you guys, this is happening way too often with young men.  I pray for his family.
> 
> View attachment 13267


For bodybuilder yes , but this probably has a lot more to do with the PEDs have been taking for 20+ years


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> For bodybuilder yes , but this probably has a lot more to do with the PEDs have been taking for 20+ years


Arnold is still alive


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> For bodybuilder yes , but this probably has a lot more to do with the PEDs have been taking for 20+ years


The article did say he got Covid late last year and was on life support.  What my Doctor pal told me the other day is more shocking.  It's a fact that hi level of snack venom is found in those who died.  One doctor took 100 samples of peoples blood who had Covid.  All the one's who died later had hi level of these enzymes or something like that and it only comes from snakes.  Snake venom is how they made the original bio weapon you guys.  The logo is a snake you guys and the snake was around since the beginning of time and played a roll in the deceiving mankind into eating from the trees of good vs evil and the tree of knowledge.  I'm on this snake poison thing big time and will get back to you on my findings.  These little snakes did quite the number on us humans.


----------



## crush

*Nelly Korda Has Surgery To Remove Blood Clot, Begins Rehab*


I 100% pray for a speedy recovery.


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yes.


really?


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yes.


So patient comes into the office, provider tells him/her:  If you recieve the vaccine you will be 100% protected and will not transmit to a family member/ friend?  Have fun during your backyard BBQ that the government is going to allow you to have.  Before you have it though, make sure you have everyone test before they come over.  But don't worry, the vaccines are fire.  

Or...

patient comes into the office, provider tells him if you recieve the vaccine, immunity will wane at a certain percentage over time and it may reduce transmission.  But, you should feel lucky, it will likley prevent death, if you are somewhat healthy.   And please come back for a booster, maybe even a second one.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> No, whiny as in a crybaby/snowflake sorta way.


ahhh, got it.  wondering how you landed on the term snowflake.


----------



## what-happened

MicPaPa said:


> You mean after the CDC recently changed the longstanding definition of vaccine & vaccination, right?


Those that worship at the alter of government and the media (echo chambers are a wonderful thing) refuse to admit that there was a campaign to convince people that the vaccine was in fact going to provide immunity and prevent transmisstion, in absolute.  What a suprise when that wasn't the case...if only they had waited to let the research play out.  

Honesty goes a long way, especially in patient/provider relationships.  IF described accurately, IF articulated honestly, I suspect we would have had higher vaccination rates and likely saved more lives.  Not the case.  It's water under the bridge now (a lot of dead people in the water under that bridge).  We can go on and on with media clips of media talking heads and bobble head doctors spewing innacurate information.  Not going to change much now.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> So patient comes into the office, provider tells him/her:  If you recieve the vaccine you will be 100% protected and will not transmit to a family member/ friend?  Have fun during your backyard BBQ that the government is going to allow you to have.  Before you have it though, make sure you have everyone test before they come over.  But don't worry, the vaccines are fire.
> 
> Or...
> 
> patient comes into the office, provider tells him if you recieve the vaccine, immunity will wane at a certain percentage over time and it may reduce transmission.  But, you should feel lucky, it will likley prevent death, if you are somewhat healthy.   And please come back for a booster, maybe even a second one.


Who said 100%?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> So patient comes into the office, provider tells him/her:  If you recieve the vaccine you will be 100% protected and will not transmit to a family member/ friend?  Have fun during your backyard BBQ that the government is going to allow you to have.  Before you have it though, make sure you have everyone test before they come over.  But don't worry, the vaccines are fire.
> 
> Or...
> 
> patient comes into the office, provider tells him if you recieve the vaccine, immunity will wane at a certain percentage over time and it may reduce transmission.  But, you should feel lucky, it will likley prevent death, if you are somewhat healthy.   And please come back for a booster, maybe even a second one.


It's closer to the latter.  All immunity based on circulating antibody titers wanes over time.  That is true for infection induced immunity or vaccination induced immunity. It's a natural balance our immune system strikes with seasonal infectious viruses.  The viruses get their ecological niche. Our immune system gets updated with respect to new variants.  Boosters are largely a public health effort to go from koyannisquatsi to balance while picking up as few new VOCs as possible.  We will get there one way or another eventually.  So if you don't want to play the booster game don't play.

We should feel lucky about the ability of the vaccines to prevent severe illness and death.  This was true not just for healthy people but also for individuals in high risk groups with a wide range of C19 co-morbidities.  My sister with Graves disease for example. The vaccines also demonstrably provide good long term cell mediated immune memory.  Infection provides long term immune memory as well, with the one caveat being the durability of long term memory is proportional to the severity of infection.  So C19 survivors walking around with lung tissue scarring should be in a pretty good place immunologically.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> View attachment 13270


Wokism is insane - literally a mental disorder.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> We should feel lucky about the ability of the vaccines to prevent severe illness and death.


100% agree.  However, policies were designed and individuals discriminated against on the basis that the vaccine prevented the spread of Covid, which as we have seen it clearly does not, at least not in any meaningful way.

The biggest joke of all is the fact that nurses were terminated due to not getting vaccinated but yet Covid postive but vaccinated nurses were allowed to work.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wokism is insane - literally a mental disorder.


One of the guys busted for his crimes was looking at hard time.  He told his attorney to stop calling him Tim and now refer him as her and Tabitha. Tabitha told EVERYONE he is now a female and only identifies as a woman and if you got a problem with it take it up with the ACLU.  Tabitha won her case and got a cellmate with Rebecca and all is good.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> 100% agree.  However, policies were designed and individuals discriminated against on the basis that the vaccine prevented the spread of Covid, which as we have seen it clearly does not, at least not in any meaningful way.
> 
> The biggest joke of all is the fact that nurses were terminated due to not getting vaccinated but yet Covid postive but vaccinated nurses were allowed to work.


"Prevented" should be "reduced", and you left out the word "asymptomatic" from your description of covid-positive nurses.  

Does your version make you feel more comfortable?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> 100% agree.  However, policies were designed and individuals discriminated against on the basis that the vaccine prevented the spread of Covid, which as we have seen it clearly does not, at least not in any meaningful way.
> 
> The biggest joke of all is the fact that nurses were terminated due to not getting vaccinated but yet Covid postive but vaccinated nurses were allowed to work.


Bro, this is all BS.  People I know have died, right after the you know what.  Please, how can you agree 100%?  The Jab is not a vaccine.  It's killing those with weak organs.  You have a bad heart, it kills you quick.  If you have cancer, goodbye.  It's killing the weak and some strong athletes because of over use of their heart.  The heart is attacked from outside shit that is put in the blood.   Why so many blood clots?  Wake up dude.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wokism is insane - literally a mental disorder.


And getting worse.  









						Patrick Henry High School cuts honors courses in the name of 'equity' -
					

SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – San Diego’s largest high school, Patrick Henry High School, has cut some honors courses without informing the student’s parents. As expected, parents are outraged and worries the lack of honors courses will hurt students chances of getting accepted to prestigious universities...




					www.kusi.com
				












						California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
					

California legislators are calling for a 32-hour workweek for companies with more than 500 employees.




					www.cnbc.com
				




We were in the Patrick Henry district but bailed out of the area prior to high school specifically to get out of the San Diego Union School District based on our experience with their elementary and middle school.  The corruption and incompetence were overwhelming.  It's been a great move.

Let's be perfectly honest, "woke" is really "dumbing down".


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Bro, this is all BS.  People I know have died, right after the you know what.  Please, how can you agree 100%?  The Jab is not a vaccine.  It's killing those with weak organs.  You have a bad heart, it kills you quick.  If you have cancer, goodbye.  It's killing the weak and some strong athletes because of over use of their heart.  The heart is attacked from outside shit that is put in the blood.   Why so many blood clots?  Wake up dude.


More power to you if you don't want to get the vaccine.   That's really a decision between you and your doctor.  We felt it was the best decision at the time to get vaccinated.  Now that we have had it we're relying on natural immunity.  To each their own, I don't judge people based on their vaccination status.

I will say had I had a spouse or child that was trying to get pregnant I would have recommended against getting a vaccination.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> More power to you if you don't want to get the vaccine.   That's really a decision between you and your doctor.  We felt it was the best decision at the time to get vaccinated.  Now that we have had it we're relying on natural immunity.  To each their own, I don't judge people based on their vaccination status.
> 
> I will say had I had a spouse or child that was trying to get pregnant I would have recommended against getting a vaccination.


You said you agreed with Evil that it protected from severe injury or death.  Would you like to take that back?  


> EvilGoalie 21 said:
> "We should feel lucky about the ability of the vaccines* to prevent* severe illness and death.


Wat fly "100% agree." 

Tell that to my pals sister and my pal Jason.  My old Minister pal sister ((i knew them both real well bro)) died and I shared on here why they think it was because of this and that.  100%?  No way.  I also know people like my nephew who got widow attack from a blood clot.  My other friend Jason is a teacher and he was forced to take the jab or get whacked.  he took them and is now on blood thinner from blood clots.   I love you 100% but to claim 100% vaccine saved the day is complete bull shit and I will call you out.  I have two years experience with this war and first hand knowledge of death and sever injury.  You think I'm lying?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> And getting worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Henry High School cuts honors courses in the name of 'equity' -
> 
> 
> SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – San Diego’s largest high school, Patrick Henry High School, has cut some honors courses without informing the student’s parents. As expected, parents are outraged and worries the lack of honors courses will hurt students chances of getting accepted to prestigious universities...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
> 
> 
> California legislators are calling for a 32-hour workweek for companies with more than 500 employees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We were in the Patrick Henry district but bailed out of the area prior to high school specifically to get out of the San Diego Union School District based on our experience with their elementary and middle school.  The corruption and incompetence were overwhelming.  It's been a great move.
> 
> Let's be perfectly honest, "woke" is really "dumbing down".


Did you read the whole email chain in the Patrick Henry situation?  Or just jump right to the conclusion along with KUSI?

Why was the 32-hour workweek proposal mixed in?  

And why is any of this in the Vaccine thread?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> More power to you if you don't want to get the vaccine.   That's really a decision between you and your doctor.  We felt it was the best decision at the time to get vaccinated.  Now that we have had it we're relying on natural immunity.  To each their own, I don't judge people based on their vaccination status.
> 
> I will say had I had a spouse or child that was trying to get pregnant I would have recommended against getting a vaccination.


What is your issue with pregnancy?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> The vaccine prevented the spread of Covid, which as we have seen it clearly does not, at least not in any meaningful way.


I will only add that, even with omicron, in high population density urban areas in the Western world (including here in LA) vaccination resulted in an ~50% reduction in the area under the transmission curve. Meaningful, in that context, is user defined.


----------



## crush

I love you all and I DO NOT judge you if you took the jab because you were told to by your doctor.  Some were told to take it or they get fired.  Some were told to take it for the team and be a good example.  Some took it because their parents told them to take the jab.  Some took them because their teachers said it was the right thing to do because. Some were told by their spouse if you dont take it I will leave your ass.  Some took it for $75 or free pizza or fries.  I have no judgment on whatever decision you made and why you made it.  It's too late now anyways, what's done is done.  We all will live with these big decisions.  Tel A Vision played a part with all the news and commercials and the news about IT.  However, if you did take IT, let's not say your decision prevented death and adverse effects.  My ass!!!  We no 100% people have died and got very sick and are not out of the woods.  We dont know either the long term side effects and death counts for 2022.  Let's see those numbers.  Love you guys, I really do.  Free speech is good so we can all learn what the truth is.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I will only add that, even with omicron, in high population density urban areas in the Western world (including here in LA) vaccination resulted in an ~50% reduction in the area under the transmission curve. Meaningful, in that context, is user defined.


I have a hard time believing that but I am willing to change my mind with evidence.  Which study found a 50% reduction?  Everything I have read indicates that it doesn't materially prevent transmission (or if it does only for a very short window) and I believe I have posted those studies before, .  This, in addition to my actual experience, has led me to my conclusion.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I have a hard time believing that but I am willing to change my mind with evidence.  Which study found a 50% reduction?  Everything I have read indicates that it doesn't materially prevent transmission (or if it does only for a very short window) and I believe I have posted those studies before, .  This, in addition to my actual experience, has led me to my conclusion.


If you were walking in the woods and a rattlesnake bite you on the leg, would you go to ER?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> You said you agreed with Evil that it protected from severe injury or death.  Would you like to take that back?


Nope, I think it does provide material protection against potential severe disease.  I didn't say it works 100% of the time, but based on what I've seen and read it provides effective protection.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Nope, I think it does provide material protection against potential severe disease.  I didn't say it works 100% of the time, but based on what I've seen and read it provides effective protection.


Ok, you said you agree 100% but whatever.  The fact is you dont know what's going on.  99.9999% of the kids were safe not taking the jab.  Why the jab agian?  99.999% for those who are healthy did not have death or severe injury from the covid flu.  For those who are unhealthy, it's a bad mix.  The truth is one needs to get healthy and not take anything in their blood.  Why the young people die and get bells and blood clot.  Olypic winner in tennis had a blood clot bro?  Did it prevent death and server injury for those under 22?  Come on man, seriously.  You can;t be serious?


----------



## what-happened

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's closer to the latter.  All immunity based on circulating antibody titers wanes over time.  That is true for infection induced immunity or vaccination induced immunity. It's a natural balance our immune system strikes with seasonal infectious viruses.  The viruses get their ecological niche. Our immune system gets updated with respect to new variants.  Boosters are largely a public health effort to go from koyannisquatsi to balance while picking up as few new VOCs as possible.  We will get there one way or another eventually.  So if you don't want to play the booster game don't play.
> 
> We should feel lucky about the ability of the vaccines to prevent severe illness and death.  This was true not just for healthy people but also for individuals in high risk groups with a wide range of C19 co-morbidities.  My sister with Graves disease for example. The vaccines also demonstrably provide good long term cell mediated immune memory.  Infection provides long term immune memory as well, with the one caveat being the durability of long term memory is proportional to the severity of infection.  So C19 survivors walking around with lung tissue scarring should be in a pretty good place immunologically.


We are speaking past each other.

Plenty of vaccinated CV19 survivors walking around with lung damage.  You miss my point completely.  A reiteration of what vaccines do, their evolution, titers waning is useless when "science" was telling everyone how crazy effective they were.  The CDC, the media, everyone, frothing at the mouth.  Did they walk everything back..of course they did.  Your description above, so some degree, should have been the initial business proposition.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Who said 100%?


you just like to play footsies don't you.

"CDC chief Rochelle Walensky said earlier this week that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.”"

"On Monday, Walensky told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow: “Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.” 

Maddow then went on a rant about how stupid people just don't get it. 

Anyway, silly argument really.  Your revionist history is expected.  Simple truth and honesty would have enabled a higher vaccination rate.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> you just like to play footsies don't you.
> 
> "CDC chief Rochelle Walensky said earlier this week that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.”"
> 
> "On Monday, Walensky told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow: “Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.”
> 
> Maddow then went on a rant about how stupid people just don't get it.
> 
> Anyway, silly argument really.  Your revionist history is expected.  Simple truth and honesty would have enabled a higher vaccination rate.


So it was just you that said 100%?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Who said 100%?


Somethings just cannot be changed in " certain " human beings...
You are a documented LIAR who just cannot change, even when 
the TRUTH is staring you in the face you LIE.

Make sure you have your heart checked periodically; the clot shot
is proving to be even more dangerous than anticipated. 

Even a 100% LIAR such as you will need to be given helpful advice
at times.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> you just like to play footsies don't you.
> 
> "CDC chief Rochelle Walensky said earlier this week that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.”"
> 
> "On Monday, Walensky told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow: “Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.”
> 
> Maddow then went on a rant about how stupid people just don't get it.
> 
> Anyway, silly argument really.  Your revionist history is expected.  Simple truth and honesty would have enabled a higher vaccination rate.


The radio commercials are telling everyone to get their kids shot before the Fall.  99.9999% no kid will die from Covid or flu but please do your part and take your children quickly to get jabbed.  Do your part.  They want your kid to take because it prevents death and serious injury.  If taking the jab does anything less than 99.9999% survival rate from covid, then it;s foolish, stupid and dangerous.  I want numbers please.  Dad?  Real numbers. I have videos of kids dying from the shots.  I have videos of young people with blood clots and retiring from golf and tennis, from clots in the blood. Never in my life has this ever happen.  99.9999% is hard to beat.  Eat healthy and watch the water you guys.  Organic and grow your own if you can.  I love you and PM me if you have any questions or just need someone to talk to.  I will not share any thing you share.  WWG1WGA!


----------



## thirteenknots

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC 


CDC is providing timely updates on the following serious adverse events of interest:


*Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare *and has occurred in approximately 5 people per one million vaccinated in the United States*. *Anaphylaxis, a severe type of allergic reaction, can occur after any kind of vaccination. If it happens, healthcare providers can effectively and immediately treat the reaction. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis.
*Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. *TTS is a rare but serious adverse event that causes blood clots in large blood vessels and low platelets (blood cells that help form clots). As of April 7, 2022, more than 18.6 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 60 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine and later developed TTS.

CDC has also identified nine deaths that have been caused by or were directly attributed to TTS following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. Women ages 30-49 years, especially, should be aware of the increased risk of this rare adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen.
To date, four confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (3 after Moderna, 1 after Pfizer-BioNTech) have been reported to VAERS after more than 544 million doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.

*Guillain-Barré Syndrome** (GBS) in people who have received the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine is rare.* GBS is a rare disorder where the body’s immune system damages nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. Most people fully recover from GBS, but some have permanent nerve damage. After more than 18.6 million J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine doses administered, there have been around 313 preliminary reports of GBS identified in VAERS as of April 7, 2022. These cases have largely been reported about 2 weeks after vaccination and mostly in men, many in those ages 50 years and older.

Based on the data, the rate of GBS within the first 21 days following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination was found to be 21 times higher than after Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna (mRNA COVID-19 vaccines). After the first 42 days, the rate of GBS was 11 times higher following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. Analysis found no increased risk of GBS after Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna (mRNA COVID-19 vaccines). CDC and FDA will continue to monitor for and evaluate reports of GBS occurring after COVID-19 vaccination and will share more information as it becomes available.
*****
*Myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. *Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, and pericarditis is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly. As of April 7, 2022, VAERS has received 2,341 preliminary reports of myocarditis or pericarditis among people ages 30 years and younger who received COVID-19 vaccines.

Most cases have been reported after receiving Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna, (mRNA COVID-19 vaccines) particularly in male adolescents and young adults. Through follow-up, including medical record reviews, CDC and FDA have verified 1,433 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis. Learn more about myocarditis and pericarditis, including clinical considerations, after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.
*Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare*. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. *Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. *More than 565 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 11, 2022. During this time, VAERS received 14,068 preliminary reports of death (0.0025%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records.

A review of reports indicates a causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine and TTS. CDC scientists have conducted detailed reviews of TTS cases and made the information available to healthcare providers and the public:
US Case Reports of Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis With Thrombocytopenia After Ad26.COV2.S Vaccination, March 2 to April 21, 2021external icon
Case Series of Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia Syndrome following COVID-19 vaccination—United States, December 2020–August 2021external icon
Updates on Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia Syndrome (TTS) pdf icon[1.3 MB, 39 Pages]


Continued monitoring has identified nine deaths causally associated with J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. CDC and FDA continue to review reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination and update information as it becomes available.





*******
Remember this Adam Espola Schiff, even the CDC admits a little bit of the TRUTH.
Check your heart.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> So it was just you that said 100%?


I suppose it's ok to live with your head stuck in the sand.


----------



## crush

*California proposes ban on sale of gas vehicles by 2035*

"Pull away from the gas pumps," Newsom said. "Let us no longer be victims of geopolitical dictators that manipulate global supply chains and global markets."


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Did you read the whole email chain in the Patrick Henry situation?  Or just jump right to the conclusion along with KUSI?
> 
> Why was the 32-hour workweek proposal mixed in?
> 
> And why is any of this in the Vaccine thread?


Just read the whole series of emails.

You gave a parent asking specific questions about cuts to honors courses.  And you have an administrator replying in very long sentences that completely obfuscate the issue.  

For example:
”Providing the most rigorous course of study with AP and Community College, with Honors courses if AP and Community college are not offered, to our students allows for them to be more competitive post-graduation in college, university and the workforce.”

That’s one sentence.  What it means is “We are eliminating our 11th grade honors class for any subject which has an AP available.”

 Most high schools teach kids to avoid run on sentences.  San Diego Unified uses them as a tool to make parents go away.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Just read the whole series of emails.
> 
> You gave a parent asking specific questions about cuts to honors courses.  And you have an administrator replying in very long sentences that completely obfuscate the issue.
> 
> For example:
> ”Providing the most rigorous course of study with AP and Community College, with Honors courses if AP and Community college are not offered, to our students allows for them to be more competitive post-graduation in college, university and the workforce.”
> 
> That’s one sentence.  What it means is “We are eliminating our 11th grade honors class for any subject which has an AP available.”
> 
> Most high schools teach kids to avoid run on sentences.  San Diego Unified uses them as a tool to make parents go away.


The rationale for eliminating some honors classes is that there are both easier (mainstream classes) and harder (AP, IB, and CC) options available.  Did you miss that?

And what does this have to do with vaccines??


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> The rationale for eliminating some honors classes is that there are both easier (mainstream classes) and harder (AP, IB, and CC) options available.  Did you miss that?
> 
> And what does this have to do with vaccines??


No one than Crush actually want to discuss vaccines anymore.  Or covid, for that matter.  

From the administrator’s emails, quote the section which explains which classes are cut.  I’ll bet you a beer it has no fewer than 15 words per sentence, and can be read at least in two different ways.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> No one than Crush actually want to discuss vaccines anymore.  Or covid, for that matter.
> 
> From the administrator’s emails, quote the section which explains which classes are cut.  I’ll bet you a beer it has no fewer than 15 words per sentence, and can be read at least in two different ways.


No one I know will get another shot, that's for sure.  I say were in for a very rough summer.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Just read the whole series of emails.
> 
> You gave a parent asking specific questions about cuts to honors courses.  And you have an administrator replying in very long sentences that completely obfuscate the issue.
> 
> For example:
> ”Providing the most rigorous course of study with AP and Community College, with Honors courses if AP and Community college are not offered, to our students allows for them to be more competitive post-graduation in college, university and the workforce.”
> 
> That’s one sentence.  What it means is “We are eliminating our 11th grade honors class for any subject which has an AP available.”
> 
> Most high schools teach kids to avoid run on sentences.  San Diego Unified uses them as a tool to make parents go away.


Are you seeing in your neck of the woods the elimination of some programs for the higher performing students?  We're seeing it quite a bit in San Diego.


----------



## Emma

espola said:


> The rationale for eliminating some honors classes is that there are both easier (mainstream classes) and harder (AP, IB, and CC) options available.  Did you miss that?
> 
> And what does this have to do with vaccines??


The off topic stuff on this thread is a lot more fun.  From my reading, the rationale is equality.  The next step is to remove all AP classes because that creates a stigma too.  2 molds do not fit for a large high school like Patrick Henry.  Some kids do great in the AP test while some do better on projects, papers, & extra assignments - that's why Honors v AP.  This sounds like a principal who cares more about future career moves and appeasing her bosses rather than taking care of her students.   I'll sacrifice my students college admission competitiveness to improve my chance of getting a promotion.  Less Honors classes means lower grades for Patrick Henry students, lowering their ability to compete with other applicants.   Without test score considerations, this will definitely be very harmful to Patrick Henry students.  

Is this happening only at Patrick Henry or is this being applied at every San Diego Unified school?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Are you seeing in your neck of the woods the elimination of some programs for the higher performing students?  We're seeing it quite a bit in San Diego.


For example?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Are you seeing in your neck of the woods the elimination of some programs for the higher performing students?  We're seeing it quite a bit in San Diego.


Some.  

The bigger trend here is to keep the classes, but drop the entrance requirements.   You no longer need a good grade in precalc to be allowed to take the AP.

I don’t know the impact overall.  You have more kids taking the harder class, but they all want to be there.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> No one I know will get another shot, that's for sure.  I say were in for a very rough summer.


Rough summer?  Not from covid.  Cases will inch up, slowly.  

I don’t know where the vax laws will end up.  Eventually, they will drop it.  

Even I think the requirement is getting out of date.  Asking me to vaccinate against the current version makes sense, and I’d be happy to get an annual booster against the latest version.  

But they aren’t updating the shot.  It’s like asking me to get last year’s flu vaccine.


----------



## soccersc

I know @dad4 doesn't want to talk about Covid anymore but this is very very good news for all that are fighting for a little common sense these days,









						State Senator Dr. Richard Pan Statement on Holding School Vaccination Requirement Legislation
					

SACRAMENTO – Dr. Richard Pan, state senator representing the Sacramento region and Chair of the Senate Health Committee made the following statement regarding his decision to hold Senate Bill 871, the




					sd06.senate.ca.gov


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *Even I think the requirement is getting out of date
> I’d be happy to get an annual booster against the latest version.
> It’s like asking me to get last year’s flu vaccine.*


Do you think all unvaccinated people should get fired from job for no jab still?


----------



## crush

Breaking news: 
*MSNBC's Katy Tur warns viewers about the 'massive, life and globe-altering consequences' if Musk buys Twitter*


----------



## crush

Fear is real folks


----------



## watfly

Emma said:


> The off topic stuff on this thread is a lot more fun.  From my reading, the rationale is equality.  The next step is to remove all AP classes because that creates a stigma too.  2 molds do not fit for a large high school like Patrick Henry.  Some kids do great in the AP test while some do better on projects, papers, & extra assignments - that's why Honors v AP.  This sounds like a principal who cares more about future career moves and appeasing her bosses rather than taking care of her students.   I'll sacrifice my students college admission competitiveness to improve my chance of getting a promotion.  Less Honors classes means lower grades for Patrick Henry students, lowering their ability to compete with other applicants.   Without test score considerations, this will definitely be very harmful to Patrick Henry students.
> 
> Is this happening only at Patrick Henry or is this being applied at every San Diego Unified school?


The ability to compete with other applicants if you lack honors courses for your GPA is a big issue.  I wish it weren't that way, but it is, the whole college process is completely insane.  I'm going to brag a bit here, but without the honors options my daughter would have never gotten into the University of Michigan (what's more insane is that Michigan's out of state tuition is basically the same as the Ivy's and more in few cases).  In some cases additional AP classes were not an option for her given her workload due to other AP's, cheerleading and 20+ hours of dance a week.

As of now, Patrick Henry is the only SDUSD that I've heard that is doing this.   At my daughters high school the principal tried to eliminate a number of honor type programs like CSF and Junior Honor Guard, which adds to a students "holistic" resume.   I can also say the HS counselors were of no help to my daughter, in fact, I had to get the District Superintendent involved for the counseling staff to submit her transcripts in a timely manner for her college applications.

I've become very disillusioned with public high schools.  The exodus to private schools will only continue.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Breaking news:
> *MSNBC's Katy Tur warns viewers about the 'massive, life and globe-altering consequences' if Musk buys Twitter*


I love how this has the "elites" knickers in a wad and how employees are already talking about leaving.  Buh, bye safe space.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> The ability to compete with other applicants if you lack honors courses for your GPA is a big issue.  I wish it weren't that way, but it is, the whole college process is completely insane.  I'm going to brag a bit here, but without the honors options my daughter would have never gotten into the University of Michigan (what's more insane is that Michigan's out of state tuition is basically the same as the Ivy's and more in few cases).  In some cases additional AP classes were not an option for her given her workload due to other AP's, cheerleading and 20+ hours of dance a week.
> 
> As of now, Patrick Henry is the only SDUSD that I've heard that is doing this.   At my daughters high school the principal tried to eliminate a number of honor type programs like CSF and Junior Honor Guard, which adds to a students "holistic" resume.   I can also say the HS counselors were of no help to my daughter, in fact, I had to get the District Superintendent involved for the counseling staff to submit her transcripts in a timely manner for her college applications.
> 
> I've become very disillusioned with public high schools.  The exodus to private schools will only continue.


Bragging about our kids is awesome and everyone should brag.  The college process is insane 100%.  My son got 4.4 GPA plus 1400 SAT.  Mostly AP. Native American to boot and struck out on his three UC apps.  He made all league in football but not much other stuff.  SDSU came on hard early and offered him early acceptance into the Business College and he grabbed it.  Stanford said no.  He did not want to move out of California so he became an Aztec.  His Freshman year he was invited to a frat house.  He rushed and lost in the first round.  He was so sad.  However, he got up and the next day he was invited to another frat house.  This one he made and he's now the VP of Chapter.  Got to go to Baja Cali and Vegas back to back weekends with the fellas.  The other insane thing is the rent, food and gas.  Our budget three years did not include this high of inflation.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I love how this has the "elites" knickers in a wad and how employees are already talking about leaving.  Buh, bye safe space.


Bro, they don't want free speech.  It started after 5 and half years ago after HRC lost to t and they went cray cray on facebook and they put a red line over friendships.  We watched t take one punch after another.  I can;t wait til the day you come on here and say, "crush, I was wrong about t and he does care about the kids with no home and he has a big heart and he's the most honest human ever."


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Bragging about our kids is awesome and everyone should brag.  The college process is insane 100%.  My son got 4.4 GPA plus 1400 SAT.  Mostly AP. Native American to boot and struck out on his three UC apps.  He made all league in football but not much other stuff.  SDSU came on hard early and offered him early acceptance into the Business College and he grabbed it.  Stanford said no.  He did not want to move out of California so he became an Aztec.  His Freshman year he was invited to a frat house.  He rushed and lost in the first round.  He was so sad.  However, he got up and the next day he was invited to another frat house.  This one he made and he's now the VP of Chapter.  Got to go to Baja Cali and Vegas back to back weekends with the fellas.  The other insane thing is the rent, food and gas.  Our budget three years did not include this high of inflation.


From what I've seen college acceptance is random to a large extent.  Having gone through this I think for CA students SDSU is the best value for a quality education in the state.  The UC's are quality schools but I do think they are vastly overrated.  From students that are there now I hear mostly complaints about getting fed, getting classes and having to take a lot of on-line classes.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Bragging about our kids is awesome and everyone should brag.  The college process is insane 100%.  My son got 4.4 GPA plus 1400 SAT.  Mostly AP. Native American to boot and struck out on his three UC apps.  He made all league in football but not much other stuff.  SDSU came on hard early and offered him early acceptance into the Business College and he grabbed it.  Stanford said no.  He did not want to move out of California so he became an Aztec.  His Freshman year he was invited to a frat house.  He rushed and lost in the first round.  He was so sad.  However, he got up and the next day he was invited to another frat house.  This one he made and he's now the VP of Chapter.  Got to go to Baja Cali and Vegas back to back weekends with the fellas.  The other insane thing is the rent, food and gas.  Our budget three years did not include this high of inflation.


1400 and no UC?  That's crazy.  It's supposed to be top 10%.

Glad he found a good spot.

Which three?  I've got a 16 year old trying to stay local, and need to figure things out.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *1400 and no UC?*  That's crazy.  It's supposed to be top 10%.
> 
> Glad he found a good spot.
> 
> Which three?  I've got a 16 year old trying to stay local, and need to figure things out.


I rounded it off.  It was 1380.   I double checked with him because I wanted to make sure I was 100% honest.  UCLA was one of them.  My wife got accepted to UCLA but went with UCSD and the smart folks....lol.  She speaks five languages.  I believe UCSB and one more I can;t remember.  Not enough "extra" and ASB and school spirit.  Did his 40 hours.


----------



## crush

crush said:


> I rounded it off.  It was 1380.   I double checked with him because I wanted to make sure I was 100% honest.  UCLA was one of them.  My wife got accepted to UCLA but went with UCSD and the smart folks....lol.  She speaks five languages.  I believe UCSB and one more I can;t remember.  Not enough "extra" and ASB and school spirit.  Did his 40 hours.


His girlfriend went to a UC and it was horrible experience.  Keep in mine we had the rona but she was on lockdown, online, in her dorm, where a mask or else.  She bailed and went the JC route and now is looking at a State school by her house and live with her parents.  She will be an amazing teacher.


----------



## paytoplay

soccersc said:


> I know @dad4 doesn't want to talk about Covid anymore but this is very very good news for all that are fighting for a little common sense these days,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State Senator Dr. Richard Pan Statement on Holding School Vaccination Requirement Legislation
> 
> 
> SACRAMENTO – Dr. Richard Pan, state senator representing the Sacramento region and Chair of the Senate Health Committee made the following statement regarding his decision to hold Senate Bill 871, the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sd06.senate.ca.gov


Checking back in here. Who won? The vaxxers or the anti-vaxxers?
Looking forward to my fifth jab. I loved when the leagues mandated masks and distancing. Better to avoid fellow club parents and coaches. And I never got sick.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> 1400 and no UC?  That's crazy.  It's supposed to be top 10%.
> 
> Glad he found a good spot.
> 
> Which three?  I've got a 16 year old trying to stay local, and need to figure things out.


My daughter applied to UCSB and UCLA, got into UCSB, but we know others that got into UCLA and not UCSB.  We also know kids that got into UCLA but not Michigan. Go figure, its random.  It really depends on who reads your kids application package.  She didn't submit test scores to any of the schools.  Had straight A's, 4.7 GPA, but I wouldn't say the strongest "holistic" resume.

Most schools are test blind for acceptance; however, they are not test blind for merit money
(Although, I'm not certain this is the case for UC's.).  I highly recommend having your kid work on their test scores.  

One of the biggest factors for getting into a top school is having a "story".   Something "woke" or overcoming diversity.  My buddy is a couple years ahead of us and he recommended that I start beating my kids so they have something to write about in their college essays and how they overcame that adversity.  Not recommending beating your kid, but you get the picture.


----------



## watfly

paytoplay said:


> Checking back in here. Who won? The vaxxers or the anti-vaxxers?
> Looking forward to my fifth jab. I loved when the leagues mandated masks and distancing. Better to avoid fellow club parents and coaches. And I never got sick.


No one won, but the kids clearly lost.


----------



## what-happened

soccersc said:


> I know @dad4 doesn't want to talk about Covid anymore but this is very very good news for all that are fighting for a little common sense these days,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State Senator Dr. Richard Pan Statement on Holding School Vaccination Requirement Legislation
> 
> 
> SACRAMENTO – Dr. Richard Pan, state senator representing the Sacramento region and Chair of the Senate Health Committee made the following statement regarding his decision to hold Senate Bill 871, the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sd06.senate.ca.gov


why is this a good idea.  Is there new "science"?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> No one won, but the kids clearly lost.


I agree.  The kids lost and my pals sister died and my other pal is on blood thinner with my nephew.  I am not making this up.  My pal has had 4 jabs and is looking forward to his 5th.  Ironically he can;t meet tomorrow for debate time because he's sick again.


----------



## paytoplay

watfly said:


> No one won, but the kids clearly lost.


They lost a couple months while the world was figuring this crisis out. A million Americans lost their lives. Millions more suffer long-Covid. Sometimes I see a masked player out there now—That’s a bummer. But this pay to play soccer continues to cost the kids. They just want to play. But a bunch of rent seeking clubs and parasitic conmen continue to take from the kids more than they give back. The kids provide 99% of the value for this activity, and the system, a network of gatekeepers, is a tapeworm.


----------



## watfly

paytoplay said:


> They lost a couple months while the world was figuring this crisis out. A million Americans lost their lives. Millions more suffer long-Covid. Sometimes I see a masked player out there now—That’s a bummer. But this pay to play soccer continues to cost the kids. They just want to play. But a bunch of rent seeking clubs and parasitic conmen continue to take from the kids more than they give back. The kids provide 99% of the value for this activity, and the system, a network of gatekeepers, is a tapeworm.


If your kids only lost a couple months you either live in the Intermountain West or your kids go to private school.


----------



## paytoplay

Texas. Unvaccinated Texans are 55 times more likely to die of a Covid related illness than vaccinated.





__





						COVID-19 Cases and Deaths by Vaccination Status  Dashboard
					





					www.dshs.texas.gov


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Wokism is insane - literally a mental disorder.


Have you ever noticed anything that originates as a civil rights platform gets the immediate delegitimization treatment from the right? As soon as all ya all figure out something is in support of something you aren’t the track is on, the battle cry is sounded! The rightwing smear campaign cranks it up full force. Insecure much? Lol! The South lost dumbasses!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Some.
> 
> The bigger trend here is to keep the classes, but drop the entrance requirements.   You no longer need a good grade in precalc to be allowed to take the AP.
> 
> I don’t know the impact overall.  You have more kids taking the harder class, but they all want to be there.


Noticing the same thing for English and Mathematics classes in the Community Colleges up here in NorCal - "qualification" requirements have been significantly reduced.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Do you think all unvaccinated people should get fired from job for no jab still?


I can see vax requirements for specific jobs, like nursing home staff.  Beyond that, no.  Time to drop it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I've become very disillusioned with public high schools.  The exodus to private schools will only continue.


That has been our experience as well. It will be interesting to see how things change over the next few years. My impression is that the level of disconnect between many school districts' policies and a significant portion of their population is becoming larger. I'd guess that schools will lose and/or have already lost an inordinate proportion of high performers as they are creating an incentive to go the private and/or home school route. Homeschoolers in CA are allowed to take college courses for dual credit. No need for AP classes if you take the actual college course. I wouldn't be surprised to see an effort by those in public education to limit the availability to take college courses while still in HS. Personally, I find it unfortunate. It's interesting in the efforts to be more inclusive many school districts appear to be pushing some out the door for greener pastures.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Have you ever noticed anything that originates as a civil rights platform gets the immediate delegitimization treatment from the right? As soon as all ya all figure out something is in support of something you aren’t the track is on, the battle cry is sounded! The rightwing smear campaign cranks it up full force. Insecure much? Lol! The South lost dumbasses!


Yeah, where would we be if we didn't allow "same sex" inmates to impregnate each other? Wow, you are one stupid SOB. Better call on your circle-jerkers for support, moron.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> That has been our experience as well. It will be interesting to see how things change over the next few years. My impression is that the level of disconnect between many school districts' policies and a significant portion of their population is becoming larger. I'd guess that schools will lose and/or have already lost an inordinate proportion of high performers as they are creating an incentive to go the private and/or home school route. Homeschoolers in CA are allowed to take college courses for dual credit. No need for AP classes if you take the actual college course. I wouldn't be surprised to see an effort by those in public education to limit the availability to take college courses while still in HS. Personally, I find it unfortunate. It's interesting in the efforts to be more inclusive many school districts appear to be pushing some out the door for greener pastures.


Some interesting data









						Exclusive: Large Districts Losing Students; Boom Towns, Virtual Schools Growing
					

The fallout from lost students is likely to lead to major layoffs and closures if districts don’t recover by 2024, when federal relief funds dry up. After that? “Armageddon,” one superintendent said. A year after the nation’s schools experienced a historic decline in enrollment, new data shows...




					www.the74million.org


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> why is this a good idea.  Is there new "science"?


Yes, there is new science…science is constantly changing


----------



## MicPaPa

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I mean both before and after VOCs delta and omicron (both the chocolate and vanilla flavors).  On the one hand, the original vaccines (Western vaccines) held up surprisingly well as we went from a virus with an R of 2 to an R of 10+.  What was originally feared (and oversold in the click media) as "immune escape" for omicron turned out in reality to be "antigenic drift". On the other hand, the promise of mRNA vaccine technology  to keep pace with VOCs was not realized, leading to the need for boosters to keep neutralizing Ab titers high to prevent infection.
> 
> If we are lucky, and omicron is the last VOC before Cov-2 settles down into a new seasonal cold coronavirus, the good news is that the extant vaccines should provide strong long-term, cell-mediated immunity to any Ace2-directed C-virus that jumps out of the new biological resevoirs that have been established around the globe.  That is what our kids will be dealing with going forward.


Sure, great. So, why did the CDC change the definition of vaccine and vaccination?


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Have you ever noticed anything that originates as a civil rights platform gets the immediate delegitimization treatment from the right? As soon as all ya all figure out something is in support of something you aren’t the track is on, the battle cry is sounded! The rightwing smear campaign cranks it up full force. Insecure much? Lol! The South lost dumbasses!


Yep, wokism is insane - literally a mental disorder.


----------



## MicPaPa

soccersc said:


> Yes, there is new science…science is constantly changing


Political science.


----------



## MicPaPa

crush said:


> Fear is real folks
> 
> View attachment 13279


Max Boot is a tool.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I can see vax requirements for specific jobs, like nursing home staff.  Beyond that, no.  Time to drop it.


Thanks.  Can we get those who lost their job, their income, their pride and so much more their lost income back?  Maybe some extra pay for a bad decision and a "I'm so sorry for destroying your life."  Delta charged non vax $200 a month as punishment for not obeying.  Now word on the street is Delta is going to charge the Vax $200 because.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> If your kids only lost a couple months you either live in the Intermountain West or your kids go to private school.


*Teen Overdose Deaths ‘Nearly Doubled’ in 2021*

Data research suggests that although “drug use among teens is down”, unfortunately “adolescents experienced a greater relative increase than the overall population.” The largest jump in overdose deaths is among 14-to 18-year-olds, according to CDC data.

Although full data has not yet been finalized due to necessary lab work and investigations in drug overdose deaths, “provisional data through October suggests the nation is on track to see at lease *105,000 overdose deaths in 2021.”*


----------



## crush

*"Only those who want to hide all their lies want to control free speech."  *Catturd

I was told to STFU or get blacklisted


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Tortured Friday*​
Good Friday never sounded good to my ears, moo   I don't get the word "Good" for this insane day.  I call it, "Tortured Friday."  Nothing good happen this day over 2000 years ago.  This is when my BFF Yeshua was tortured and then hung on a tree to die in front of Mary and Mary. The fellas all bailed because they were scared and full of FEAR!

Hanging, electrocution, knee-capping, gas chamber: these punishments are feared. They all happen today, and we shudder as we think of the horror and pain. But as we shall see, these ordeals pale into insignificance compared with the bitter fate of Jesus Christ: crucifixion.

Few persons are crucified today (except by ISIS and various other terrorists). For us the cross remains confined to ornaments and jewelry, stained-glass windows, romanticized pictures and statues portraying a serene death. Crucifixion was a form of execution refined by the Romans to a precise art. It was carefully conceived to produce a slow death with maximum pain. It was a public spectacle intended to deter other would-be criminals. It was a death to be feared.

*Sweat like blood*
Luke 22:44 says of Jesus, "and being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." The sweat was unusually intense because his emotional state was unusually intense. Dehydration coupled with exhaustion further weakened him.

*Beating*
It was in this condition that Jesus faced the first physical abuse: punches and slaps to the face and head while blindfolded. Unable to anticipate the blows, Jesus was badly bruised, his mouth and eyes possibly injured. The psychological effects of the false trials should not be underestimated. Consider that Jesus faced them bruised, dehydrated, exhausted, possibly in shock.

*Flogging*
In the previous 12 hours Jesus had suffered emotional trauma, rejection by his closest friends, a cruel beating, and a sleepless night during which he had to walk miles between unjust hearings. Despite the fitness he must certainly have gained during his travels in Palestine, he was in no way prepared for the punishment of flogging. The effects would be worse as a result.

A man to be flogged was stripped of his clothes and his hands tied to a post above his head. He was then whipped across the shoulders, back, buttocks, thighs and legs, the soldier standing behind and to one side of the victim. The whip used – the flagellum – was designed to make this a devastating punishment, bringing the victim close to death: several short heavy leather thongs, with two small balls of lead or iron attached near the end of each. Pieces of sheep’s bone were sometimes included.

As the scourging proceeds, the heavy leather thongs produce first superficial cuts, than deeper damage to underlying tissues. Bleeding becomes severe when not only capillaries and veins are cut, but also arteries in the underlying muscles. The small metal balls first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by further blows. The fragments of sheep’s bone rip the flesh as the whip is drawn back. When the beating is finished, the skin of the back is in ribbons, and the entire area torn and bleeding.

The words chosen by the gospel writers suggest that the scourging of Jesus was particularly severe: he was certainly at the point of collapse when he was cut down from the flogging-post.

*The mocking*
Jesus was allowed no time to recover before facing his next ordeal. Made to stand, he was dressed in a robe by jeering soldiers, crowned with a twisted band of thorny twigs, and to complete the parody, given a wooden staff as a king’s scepter. "Next, they spat on Jesus and struck him on the head with the wooden staff." The long thorns were driven into the sensitive scalp tissue producing profuse bleeding, but even more terrible was the re-opening of the wounds on Jesus’ back when the robe was torn off again.

Further weakened physically and emotionally, Jesus was led away to be executed.

*The crucifixion*
The wooden cross used by the Romans was too heavy to be carried by one man. Instead the victim to be crucified was made to bear the detached crossbar across his shoulders, carrying it outside the city walls to the place of execution. (The heavy upright portion of the cross was permanently in position here.) Jesus was unable to carry his load – a beam weighing around 75 to 125 pounds (approximately 35-55 kg). He collapsed under the burden, and an onlooker was ordered to take it for him.

Jesus refused to drink the wine and myrrh offered him before the nails were driven in. (It would have dulled the pain.) Thrown down on his back with arms outstretched along the crossbar, nails were driven through Jesus’ wrists into the wood. These iron spikes, about 6 inches long and 3/8 inch thick, cut the large sensorimotor median nerve, causing excruciating pain in both arms. Carefully placed between bones and ligaments, they were able to bear the full weight of the crucified man.

In preparation for the nailing of the feet, Jesus was lifted up and the crossbar fixed to the upright post. Then with legs bent at the knee, a nail was driven through each ankle into the cross. Again there was severe nerve damage and the pain caused was intense. It is important to note, however, that neither the wounds to the wrists or feet caused substantial bleeding, since no major arteries were ruptured. The executioner took care to ensure this, so that death would be slower and the suffering longer.

Now nailed to his cross, the real horror of crucifixion began. When the wrists were nailed to the crossbar, the elbows were intentionally left in a bent position so that the crucified man would hang with his arms above his head, the weight being taken on the nails in the wrists. Obviously this was unbearably painful, but it had another effect: It is very difficult to exhale in this position. In order to breathe out, and then take in fresh air, it was necessary to push the body up on the nailed feet. When the pain from the feet became unbearable, the victim would again slump down to hang by the arms. A terrible cycle of pain began: hanging by the arms, unable to breathe, pushing up on the feet to inhale quickly before again slumping down, and on and on.

This tortured activity became more and more difficult as Jesus’ back was scraped against the upright post, as muscle cramps set in because of the inadequate respiration, and as exhaustion grew more severe. Jesus suffered in this manner for several hours before, with a final cry, he died.

*Cause of death*
Many factors contributed to Jesus’ death. A combination of shock and suffocation killed most victims of crucifixion, but in Jesus’ case acute heart failure may have been the final trauma. This is suggested by his sudden death following a loud cry, after only a few hours: a quick death, it seems (Pilate was surprised to find Jesus already dead). A fatal cardiac arrhythmia, or perhaps cardiac rupture, are likely candidates.

*The spear wound*
Jesus was already dead as the executioners broke the legs of the criminals crucified alongside (in order to speed their deaths). Instead, we read that a soldier pierced Jesus’ side with a spear. Where on his side? The word chosen by John suggests the ribs, and if the soldier intended to make Jesus’ death certain, a wound to the heart was the obvious choice.

From the wound came a flow of "blood and water." This is consistent with the spear blow to the heart (especially from the right side, the traditional site of the wound). Rupturing the pericardium (the sac surrounding the heart) released a flow of watery serum, followed by blood as the heart was pierced.

*Conclusion*
The detailed accounts given in the gospels combined with the historical evidence on crucifixion bring us to a firm conclusion: modern medical knowledge supports the claim of the scriptures that Jesus died on the cross


----------



## crush

Jesus said, *“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”*

I agree with Jesus, we have no idea what were doing and what's really going.  The teachers and leaders on earth have lost their ways.  I pray and beg the Great Creator and Mother Earth to please allow Yeshua to come back ASAP and set up his Kingdom on earth for 1000 years.  I love you all and I also forgive you all.  Let's all forgive each other and offer up free Mulligans.  Thank God for forgiveness, Grace, Mercy and a Second Chance.  Choose the Light and Love others and all will go well with your soul, I promise.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I love how this has the "elites" knickers in a wad and how employees are already talking about leaving. Buh, bye safe space.


Fascinating to watch people get up in arms about a person who wants to come in and END censorship.


----------



## Desert Hound

Does Vaccination Make You MORE Likely to Catch Covid?
					

Walgreen's must run an enormous number of covid tests, nationwide. So their data should be a pretty good sample. Check out these numbers from Walgreen's web site. This chart shows the positivity rate by vaccination status. It indicates that unvaccinated people currently have a lower rate of...




					www.powerlineblog.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Does Vaccination Make You MORE Likely to Catch Covid?
> 
> 
> Walgreen's must run an enormous number of covid tests, nationwide. So their data should be a pretty good sample. Check out these numbers from Walgreen's web site. This chart shows the positivity rate by vaccination status. It indicates that unvaccinated people currently have a lower rate of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.powerlineblog.com


"It is generally a mistake to draw cosmic conclusions from a single data set,"

"I can’t draw that conclusion from these numbers alone"


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Does Vaccination Make You MORE Likely to Catch Covid?
> 
> 
> Walgreen's must run an enormous number of covid tests, nationwide. So their data should be a pretty good sample. Check out these numbers from Walgreen's web site. This chart shows the positivity rate by vaccination status. It indicates that unvaccinated people currently have a lower rate of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.powerlineblog.com


I can say this from my experience as a unvaxxed couple.  I have been sick twice since Jan 20, 2020.  7 days max altogether.  I shared how I was up in Seattle and came back with IT.  Then I got Omicron.  That is it and I wish I was I never sick but those are the facts.  My wife was sick once but for about two weeks.  Omicron Venom knocked her out.  Our Immune system did it's job and we did our job by eating super healthy and making sure what we put in our body and now we both feel amazing, knock on wood.  I did not always eat good in the past and I had my fair share of drinking with the Spirits in the past and I loved fast food.  It was fast and quick because I was trying to make $200,000+ every year to keep the creditors off my ass.  I was born in a system that gave everyone a Financial Credit Score plus a number that belongs to you.  I just got email from one of these reputation management companies letting me know they can help with my Social Credit Score.  I kid you not.  I'm already getting booted out from buying and selling in the State and now they want to score me on my reputation online.  Yikes!!!  This is quite the place.  Jab or get fired.  Jab or no college soccer and free education.  Life is not fair and I will look to figure out how my wife and I will help her parents, who both have Alzheimer's and not getting any better.  Love you man


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Does Vaccination Make You MORE Likely to Catch Covid?
> 
> 
> Walgreen's must run an enormous number of covid tests, nationwide. So their data should be a pretty good sample. Check out these numbers from Walgreen's web site. This chart shows the positivity rate by vaccination status. It indicates that unvaccinated people currently have a lower rate of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.powerlineblog.com


Most sources I have seen still show unvaccinated testing positive at several times the rate of vaccinated.  This is measured as positive tests per hundred thousand people in each category.

Walgreens was measuring positive tests per test taken.  Many employers require unvaccinated employees to get tested, but have no such requirements for vaccinated employees.

The difference in your fractions isn't the numerator.  It's the denominator.  Unvaccinated people are more likely to be required to go get a test.

Did you really think no one measures whether the vaccine reduces odds of infection?  You have thousands of well respected scientists looking at this exact question.  Yet you choose to pay attention to some random internet troll who got confused by the Walgreens website.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *Most sources I have seen still show unvaccinated testing positive at several times the rate of vaccinated.*


Throw all the tests out Dad.  The tests are rigged and we all know it but you.


----------



## what-happened

soccersc said:


> Yes, there is new science…science is constantly changing


do tell


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> do tell


Indeed.  It's kind of the definition of science, at least since the time of Galileo and Newton who conducted experiments to test theories and thus expanded humanity's knowledge about things (and even the ways to describe that knowledge, such as Newton's invention of calculus).


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Indeed.  It's kind of the definition of science, at least since the time of Galileo and Newton who conducted experiments to test theories and thus expanded humanity's knowledge about things (and even the ways to describe that knowledge, such as Newton's invention of calculus).


perfect - but the article referred was by a doctor and a sitting senator.  Hardly a trustworthy combination.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> That has been our experience as well. It will be interesting to see how things change over the next few years. My impression is that the level of disconnect between many school districts' policies and a significant portion of their population is becoming larger. I'd guess that schools will lose and/or have already lost an inordinate proportion of high performers as they are creating an incentive to go the private and/or home school route. Homeschoolers in CA are allowed to take college courses for dual credit. No need for AP classes if you take the actual college course. I wouldn't be surprised to see an effort by those in public education to limit the availability to take college courses while still in HS. Personally, I find it unfortunate. It's interesting in the efforts to be more inclusive many school districts appear to be pushing some out the door for greener pastures.


We're certainly entering an era of "bridge too far" with education and its great that parents (from both sides of the aisle) are standing up to the BS.  My only hope is that it will continue.  The parents at my daughter's school stood up to the administration and we were able to restore the honors programs that the principal tried to eliminate.  Sometimes all it takes is calling out their BS.  As a matter of note, the principal was forced to resign due to pressure from both parents and teachers.  Not necessarily for this incident, but as one teacher stated for "catastrophic incompetence".  It also resulted in the Superintendent retiring early as the Principal was her hand picked choice (happened to be a friend of hers).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Most sources I have seen still show unvaccinated testing positive at several times the rate of vaccinated.  This is measured as positive tests per hundred thousand people in each category.
> 
> Walgreens was measuring positive tests per test taken.  Many employers require unvaccinated employees to get tested, but have no such requirements for vaccinated employees.
> 
> The difference in your fractions isn't the numerator.  It's the denominator.  Unvaccinated people are more likely to be required to go get a test.
> 
> Did you really think no one measures whether the vaccine reduces odds of infection?  You have thousands of well respected scientists looking at this exact question.  Yet you choose to pay attention to some random internet troll who got confused by the Walgreens website.


While you may be right, at this point the case number is not remotely reliable.  There have been far more cases in the last few months than has been reported.  Most people have been testing positive with home kits.  My suspicion is that most people reporting positive tests are those that have had more significant sickness and have to be treated at some medical facility.  These people likely fall into two groups, the unvaccinated and those with co-conditions (even if vaccinated).  Actually there is a 3rd group, those that get medical treatment for something else but as protocol get tested for Covid.  How that impacts the reported numbers in terms of vaccinated or unvaccinated is really impossible for anyone to accurately gauge.

Omicron has spread throughout my community without regard to vaccination status. 









						Most of the World’s Vaccines Likely Won’t Prevent Infection From Omicron
					

They do seem to offer significant protection against severe illness, but the consequences of rapidly spreading infection worry many public health experts.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> We're certainly entering an era of "bridge too far" with education and its great that parents (from both sides of the aisle) are standing up to the BS.  My only hope is that it will continue.  The parents at my daughter's school stood up to the administration and we were able to restore the honors programs that the principal tried to eliminate.  Sometimes all it takes is calling out their BS.  As a matter of note, the principal was forced to resign due to pressure from both parents and teachers.  Not necessarily for this incident, but as one teacher stated for "catastrophic incompetence".  It also resulted in the Superintendent retiring early as the Principal was her hand picked choice (happened to be a friend of hers).


My buddy said the pay to play at some districts was gnarly and not good and he got out after one year and went back to teaching.  If you like to play around, then you will get paid but you have to pay with your morals.  Once you get bought or bribed and fall into sin, you will be blackmailed with doing as your told or I will make your life a living hell.  Dirty tricks because you played dirty.  This had to happen for everyone to see with their eyes. Let's see who the real hold outs will be.  I see you slowly coming down off the fence bro.  I am proud of you.  The kids will get you down all the way.  Go as slow as you need to go but get off that fence


----------



## soccersc

what-happened said:


> perfect - but the article referred was by a doctor and a sitting senator.  Hardly a trustworthy combination.


why do kids need to be vaccinated? is there old science that shows they need it?
The politician Dr. Pan and his team came to two conclusions...kids don't die from covid and the state can't afford to lose any more students in public education....just think if even 5% of kids leave public school how much money that really is at $12,500 per student for one year with about 5.8 million students....that's a lot of money


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## crush

soccersc said:


> why do kids need to be vaccinated? is there old science that shows they need it?
> The politician Dr. Pan and his team came to two conclusions...kids don't die from covid and the state can't afford to lose any more students in public education....just think if even 5% of kids leave public school how much money that really is at $12,500 per student for one year with about 5.8 million students....that's a lot of money


Talks of layoffs are buzzing where my buddy works.  He's also looking at a deal that will allow him to retire early and move to Naples, Fl.  He told me he;s concerned about his retirement promises so he's going to live as if the money is half of what they promised.


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## Desert Hound

soccersc said:


> why do kids need to be vaccinated? is there old science that shows they need it?
> The politician Dr. Pan and his team came to two conclusions...kids don't die from covid and the state can't afford to lose any more students in public education....just think if even 5% of kids leave public school how much money that really is at $12,500 per student for one year with about 5.8 million students....that's a lot of money


CDC data shows that kids between 5-14 have had a total of 312 deaths since this began. 

They have no risk.

30 and under have had a total of about 7k deaths since the beginning of this. Young people have no risk.


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## crush

Desert Hound said:


> CDC data shows that kids between 5-14 have had a total of 312 deaths since this began.
> 
> They have no risk.
> 
> 30 and under have had a total of about 7k deaths since the beginning of this. Young people have no risk.


Round and a round we go.  Dad will say your wrong and mask saved everyone.  I told everyone their after the kids.  Btw, thoughts on Naples, Fl?  Anyone else know about this place?


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## crush

Whatever you say about Mr. Trump, he keeps standing.  I never thought much of him until my wife said he was going to win the night before the 2016 election.  I laughed at her.  I was not into politics at all.  I watched some Fox and some CNN and was really into sports and watching my dd and ds play youth sports.  I worked from home.  All I can say is someone or some force is helping t through some serious shit.  He's been attacked and accused more then anyone I have ever known.  Torched by the Media, Hollywood, Husker Du, Espola and so many others every day.


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## crush

Looks like the little snakes brought out the "poison pill" to block old Mr. Musk from controlling communications in our country.  Do you all think the Military has no idea what's going on with all censorship of free speech and firing folks for not getting jabbed in this country and those who sold their souls and our country out for the almighty dollar?  Up to $100,000 for a patient who dies of covid in some of the hospitals.  That's insane!!!  How about $100,000 bonus if someone walks out of the hospital healed and doing better?  Insane brothers & sisters.  We need to see the TRUTH and never let this happen again.  I love you all


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## crush

BEST GOVERNOR EVER!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com
				




Thank God some States make it illegal to kill baby after 15 weeks.  Florida is kicking ass.  Not perfect but they do care about life and those who said no to the jab.  Please pray for my family you guys and I will pray for all of yours.  My in laws were told today they cannot live on their own and 100% keys have been taken away.  Were looking at Florida to help them both until they transition to full care.  I had other plans when I turned 55 but sometimes you have to to help those who helped you.  No way I turn my back on my in laws.  I will deny myself and help them.  I can;t help them in this State.


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## crush

Watch out who you stand with and watch out where you all get the news.  All eyes are watching.


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## crush

*"Healthy free speech is when someone says something you don't like …"*

*- Elon Musk, TED Talk April 2022  *


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## crush




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## crush

*TRUTH Bomb!!!!

Dr. F:  "You use lockdowns to get people Vaccinated"*


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## crush

"I can really say that I stood firm on what I believed in, what I wanted to do with my body. That should be not just an American right, that should be a human right," Irving said. "And when you stand for something like that, in a society that we’re in where *we have a lot more followers than we do leaders*, you’re going to be forced into being seen as a black sheep that people can attack and can clickbait your name and say these things that don’t really describe who you are.


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## Desert Hound




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## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 13304


Look closely at the statue.   I don't think she's in Kansas anymore.....


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## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Look closely at the statue.   I don't think she's in Kansas anymore.....


That's why you're the sharpest marble in the bag.


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## N00B

dad4 said:


> Look closely at the statue.   I don't think she's in Kansas anymore.....


… but the flying monkeys don’t evoke the same ‘Planet of the Apes’ imagery.


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## crush

Invoice proves that the place that has a plan for the parent sold baby body parts after they killed the baby.  It's true and if that's ok with you then I'll pray for you. Happy Easter folks.  He rose and will return at a time and date no one knows except the Creator of Life.


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## crush

*Truth Bomb!

"I think the most amazing thing about the playoffs ((NFL)) this year, is HOW they got rid of Covid.  They should get the doctors in the NFL to work for the government.  It was amazing cuz all season long you had 4 or 5 guys on the team on the Covid list, but once the playoffs started, guess how many positive tests the NFL had?  0.  That was the most incredible thing about the playoffs." * 
Brain who plays in the NFL said

It's all about money you guys.  The love of money is the root of all evil.  No one sells their soul for free and no one is going to spy, lie and cheat unless they get paid.  Basically, no one does bad things to people for free.  Their is a price to pay and it's gnarly and to each his own how you play the game of life.


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## crush

Emory University limits internet access for unboosted students
					

The program is designed to encourage students to get a COVID-19 booster shot.




					www.wsbtv.com


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## kickingandscreaming

It's not just LA. See the story below. Also, read the comments. It appears this is one neck of the woods in NorCal that is feeling things are going downhill. Mid-terms will be very telling. We'll see. As you are aware, I tend to skeptically view much of what I read online.









						Palo Alto resident robbed at gunpoint in driveway while child is in the car
					

Two armed men robbed a man at gunpoint Friday evening in the University South neighborhood while a young child sat in his car, according to a Palo Alto police press release.




					www.paloaltoonline.com


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's not just LA. See the story below. Also, read the comments. It appears this is one neck of the woods in NorCal that is feeling things are going downhill. Mid-terms will be very telling. We'll see. As you are aware, I tend to skeptically view much of what I read online.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palo Alto resident robbed at gunpoint in driveway while child is in the car
> 
> 
> Two armed men robbed a man at gunpoint Friday evening in the University South neighborhood while a young child sat in his car, according to a Palo Alto police press release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.paloaltoonline.com


My wife's friend just closed escrow in North Hollywood.  She got above asking price and is off to Texas.  I heard from another pal that lives in Yorba Linda that the Smash & Grabbers came into OC to grab some diamonds at some mall.  My buddy was driving in the area and cops were everywhere. Thanks again for the thoughts about my wife's parents.  We got two great news yesterday bro.  A killer place looks like it opened up for us in Naples, Fl.  Another one of my wife's friends has a condo all paid for and she loves my wife and will rent to us and give us a great friends & family deal.  This way Grandpa & Grandpa can retire in style while they still have their minds.  The second piece is this.  Looks like the State is backed up with Alzheimer's patients and not enough nurses and in homecare pros available for those who can;t take care of themselves and the kids are too busy or they dont have kids or the kids just dont care.  It happens.  Not judging others who can;t help because they have to make money to pay their mortgage, cars, kids college and gas and food.  Its looks like they will pay a family member ((Spouse is not allowed)) to be the caretaker.  It was cool because my wife and I agreed last week that no matter what, no matter the sacrifice, we would care for them as long as humanly possible.  Happy Easter Brother


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## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> My wife's friend just closed escrow in North Hollywood.  She got above asking price and is off to Texas.  I heard from another pal that lives in Yorba Linda that the Smash & Grabbers came into OC to grab some diamonds at some mall.  My buddy was driving in the area and cops were everywhere. Thanks again for the thoughts about my wife's parents.  We got two great news yesterday bro.  A killer place looks like it opened up for us in Naples, Fl.  Another one of my wife's friends has a condo all paid for and she loves my wife and will rent to us and give us a great friends & family deal.  This way Grandpa & Grandpa can retire in style while they still have their minds.  The second piece is this.  Looks like the State is backed up with Alzheimer's patients and not enough nurses and in homecare pros available for those who can;t take care of themselves and the kids are too busy or they dont have kids or the kids just dont care.  It happens.  Not judging others who can;t help because they have to make money to pay their mortgage, cars, kids college and gas and food.  Its looks like they will pay a family member ((Spouse is not allowed)) to be the caretaker.  It was cool because my wife and I agreed last week that no matter what, no matter the sacrifice, we would care for them as long as humanly possible.  Happy Easter Brother


Happy Easter, @crush.

The good thing about people moving now is that the price they are getting for their house is historically high.  I'm happy to hear the good news regarding the grandparents. Naples Florida is really nice.


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## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> My wife's friend just closed escrow in North Hollywood.  She got above asking price and is off to Texas.  I heard from another pal that lives in Yorba Linda that the Smash & Grabbers came into OC to grab some diamonds at some mall.  My buddy was driving in the area and cops were everywhere. Thanks again for the thoughts about my wife's parents.  We got two great news yesterday bro.  A killer place looks like it opened up for us in Naples, Fl.  Another one of my wife's friends has a condo all paid for and she loves my wife and will rent to us and give us a great friends & family deal.  This way Grandpa & Grandpa can retire in style while they still have their minds.  The second piece is this.  Looks like the State is backed up with Alzheimer's patients and not enough nurses and in homecare pros available for those who can;t take care of themselves and the kids are too busy or they dont have kids or the kids just dont care.  It happens.  Not judging others who can;t help because they have to make money to pay their mortgage, cars, kids college and gas and food.  Its looks like they will pay a family member ((Spouse is not allowed)) to be the caretaker.  It was cool because my wife and I agreed last week that no matter what, no matter the sacrifice, we would care for them as long as humanly possible.  Happy Easter Brother


Just so you know Cali #16, Texas #15








						How the Violent Crime Rate in Texas Compares to Other States – 24/7 Wall St.
					

Violent crime — a broad category of offenses that includes rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and homicide — is on the rise in the United States. According to FBI data, there were a total of 1.3 million violent offenses reported in 2020, or 388 for every 100,000 people — a 5% increase from 2019...




					247wallst.com


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## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just so you know Cali #16, Texas #15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the Violent Crime Rate in Texas Compares to Other States – 24/7 Wall St.
> 
> 
> Violent crime — a broad category of offenses that includes rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and homicide — is on the rise in the United States. According to FBI data, there were a total of 1.3 million violent offenses reported in 2020, or 388 for every 100,000 people — a 5% increase from 2019...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 247wallst.com


Crime rate is close State by State for sure in TX and CA.  However, gasoline tax and prices are in insane here plus no State Tax in Texas.  Rent here is insane but not TX.  The weather is not for me TX.  Florida is hot and not so sure how I will do but I will see.  Only thing California is #1 at is the weather Husker.  Location location and location.  Thoughts on Naples, Fl?  I hear nothing but great things so far.  Place were looking at moving to has a forest in the back and the ocean in the front.  Killer golf course and state of the art Alzheimer's care and help.  Little town where they shop and get their things without having to pay.  It's super cool and allow the person to feel like an a adult. One thing I've learned is the fear of money or lack there of with patients like this is real and i think makes it worse.  My wife does celery juice for them and we now have them off meat.  Once we all live together, we will help them with their meds full time and monitor them 24/7.  They can walk and get lost now.


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## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Crime rate is close State by State for sure in TX and CA.  However, gasoline tax and prices are in insane here plus no State Tax in Texas.  Rent here is insane but not TX.  The weather is not for me TX.  Florida is hot and not so sure how I will do but I will see.  Only thing California is #1 at is the weather Husker.  Location location and location.  Thoughts on Naples, Fl?  I hear nothing but great things so far.  Place were looking at moving to has a forest in the back and the ocean in the front.  Killer golf course and state of the art Alzheimer's care and help.  Little town where they shop and get their things without having to pay.  It's super cool and allow the person to feel like an a adult. One thing I've learned is the fear of money or lack there of with patients like this is real and i think makes it worse.  My wife does celery juice for them and we now have them off meat.  Once we all live together, we will help them with their meds full time and monitor them 24/7.  They can walk and get lost now.


Yeah, but then one has to live in Texas. I have friends and relatives all over Texas, I’m there often, live there? No thanks. If one wants something in this life they need to work for it. I’m not afraid of that, never have been.
I’ve been to Florida a few times . . . if you have nothing good to say, no comment.


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## kickingandscreaming

It's worthless to speak of states as monolithic entities. I've been to many states including FL, CA, and TX and I feel quite confident there are multiple places in each where I can be satisfied. The real question is, how much are you willing to spend for the "level" of satisfaction you will get? As areas deteriorate with higher levels of crime than they previously had, that answer will change. Anyone that says, "I can't be satisfied in state XYZ". is telling me more about the person than the state.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Yeah, but then one has to live in Texas. *I have friends and relatives all over Texas, I’m there often, live there? No thanks. If one wants something in this life they need to work for it. I’m not afraid of that, never have been.
> I’ve been to Florida a few times . . . if you have nothing good to say, no comment.


True dat brah, but one also needs to have the means to survive.  I know your financially set for the rest of your life and I am happy for you.  You worked hard.  My teaching pals all feel the same way. The workers in OC are moving out of OC.  $15 an hour is poverty in Socal.  I just saw a room in HB for rent for $2,000 a month. I know a guy who is looking to sell his truck because he drives so far to work.  He has to pay to work in Socal.  Nurses and homecare workers who can;t afford this place are leaving.  Also, those who said no to jab have been forced out and their re-locating to look for work.  It's a trickle down kind of thing.  My pals who have moved to Fl and Tx all did, so they could raise a family without both parents having to work 60 hours a week just to pay mortgage, gas, toll road, food, youth sports, save for college, 401k and fun.  My #1 choice is to stay somewhere in Leisure World.  The prices have doubled though and like I said, gas and food is insane.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's worthless to speak of states as monolithic entities. I've been to many states including FL, CA, and TX and I feel quite confident there are multiple places in each where I can be satisfied. The real question is, how much are you willing to spend for the "level" of satisfaction you will get? As areas deteriorate with higher levels of crime than they previously had, that answer will change. Anyone that says, "I can't be satisfied in state XYZ". is telling me more about the person than the state.


I choose to live where I have lived all my life so yes I am biased. I can cite many reasons why I don’t want to live somewhere else but it comes down to I don’t want to. I have always wanted to stay here, period. I surf so there’s always that.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I choose to live where I have lived all my life so yes I am biased. I can cite many reasons why I don’t want to live somewhere else but it comes down to I don’t want to. I have always wanted to stay here, period.* I surf *so there’s always that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> I choose to live where I have lived all my life so yes I am biased. I can cite many reasons why I don’t want to live somewhere else but it comes down to I don’t want to. I have always wanted to stay here, period. I surf so there’s always that.


Imagine that - missing my point and proving it at the same time. Thanks, I guess.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Imagine that - missing my point and proving it at the same time. Thanks, I guess.


Yes I think I get your point. I have been many places I like in this world. Many I could spend more time in, but none that beat where I live. Where one grew up always holds special meaning. There is a reason so many want to live here.


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## crush

This is how I am when I do my double check "you can't be serious" for $6.39 Diesel fill up.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> *California proposes ban on sale of gas vehicles by 2035*
> 
> "Pull away from the gas pumps," Newsom said. "Let us no longer be victims of geopolitical dictators that manipulate global supply chains and global markets."
> 
> View attachment 13277


OMGoodness.....

Gavin Benito Newsom in a clean white shirt.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> This is how I am when I do my double check "you can't be serious" for $6.39 Diesel fill up.
> 
> View attachment 13310


Today, oil companies are under enormous pressure from Wall Street to return cash to shareholders through dividends and buybacks, instead of investing in badly needed supply.








						Gas prices are high. Oil CEOs reveal why they're not drilling more
					

The US oil industry doesn't appear to be in any rush to come to the rescue of Americans struggling with high gas prices. Oil company CEOs say Wall Street is to blame.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Today, oil companies are under enormous pressure from Wall Street to return cash to shareholders through dividends and buybacks, instead of investing in badly needed supply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gas prices are high. Oil CEOs reveal why they're not drilling more
> 
> 
> The US oil industry doesn't appear to be in any rush to come to the rescue of Americans struggling with high gas prices. Oil company CEOs say Wall Street is to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Humans only have three categories Husker.  Slave, Serf or Sacrifice.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Today, oil companies are under enormous pressure from Wall Street to return cash to shareholders through dividends and buybacks, instead of investing in badly needed supply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gas prices are high. Oil CEOs reveal why they're not drilling more
> 
> 
> The US oil industry doesn't appear to be in any rush to come to the rescue of Americans struggling with high gas prices. Oil company CEOs say Wall Street is to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Yeah, that's it genius.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Humans only have three categories Husker.  Slave, Serf or Sacrifice.


How Mayan of you.


----------



## Grace T.

A court (a trump federal judge Iiuc) struck down the airline/transportation mandate. The cdc can still appeal but it will be a tough slog given the airlines, airport authorities, Amtrak and tsa all within a matter of hours ended the mandates and in the case of private companies declined to do voluntary ones. Reports of people cheering mid flight and masking collapsing. The Biden admin might still decide to appeal but given the surprising speed of collapse they’d be swimming against the public. Might portend the end of masking period but too soon to tell (word is Hawaii for example may move to try and reinstate for its flights)


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> A court (a trump federal judge Iiuc) struck down the airline/transportation mandate. The cdc can still appeal but it will be a tough slog given the airlines, airport authorities, Amtrak and tsa all within a matter of hours ended the mandates and in the case of private companies declined to do voluntary ones. Reports of people cheering mid flight and masking collapsing. The Biden admin might still decide to appeal but given the surprising speed of collapse they’d be swimming against the public. Might portend the end of masking period but too soon to tell (word is Hawaii for example may move to try and reinstate for its flights)


Welcome back.  I'm going to take a break now.  I feel like a tired slug,  No energy.


----------



## espola

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516209956428599301


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516209956428599301


If she's that concerned about her kids and COVID, she should have stayed home and ordered delivery like the rest of the Howard Hughes wannabes. Seriously though, I wonder what data she is using to determine whether her kids have a significant risk.



Grace T. said:


> A court (a trump federal judge Iiuc) struck down the airline/transportation mandate. The cdc can still appeal but it will be a tough slog given the airlines, airport authorities, Amtrak and tsa all within a matter of hours ended the mandates and in the case of private companies declined to do voluntary ones. Reports of people cheering mid flight and masking collapsing. The Biden admin might still decide to appeal but given the surprising speed of collapse they’d be swimming against the public. Might portend the end of masking period but too soon to tell (word is Hawaii for example may move to try and reinstate for its flights)


I'd have to guess that it was at the airport in Maui where I got my "COVID" cold. The mask mandate was in full effect but they pack you in pretty tight in the boarding area. Not sure how much a mask helps.

Something to consider if going to HI when they still have mask mandates - stay in a hotel where the rooms open to the outside versus interior hallways. Much more convenient.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> If she's that concerned about her kids and COVID, she should have stayed home and ordered delivery like the rest of the Howard Hughes wannabes. Seriously though, I wonder what data she is using to determine whether her kids have a significant risk.


You're such a lovely, caring person!


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> You're such a lovely, caring person!


what is her fear?  Her and her little ones can still wear a mask.  Do we have to rehash the whole kid and covid thing again??


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> what is her fear?  Her and her little ones can still wear a mask.  Do we have to rehash the whole kid and covid thing again??


I must assume then that you didn't read her tweet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I must assume then that you didn't read her tweet.


Sorry, Linus. Your blanket has been replaced by something that helps your mom feel better. You do know it's all about the adults now, right?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Sorry, Linus. Your blanket has been replaced by something that helps your mom feel better. You do know it's all about the adults now, right?


Do you always laugh at mothers concerns?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you always laugh at mothers concerns?


It's so confusing for all of us.  One mom wants mask for all and one mom thinks forcing a mask on child is abuse.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Rent in so many places are going up and up and more up.  Gasoline is triple the price from two years ago.  Food is way up.  The fact is Mr. Landlord knows that he can get double then before.  My buddy had the best deal in San Clemente until last week.  Landon the Landlord told him it's time to leave.  30 day notice because he can get someone else in for twice as much.


----------



## crush

"When I bought my tickets for me, my wife (who is pregnant), and our unvaccinated 4-year-old, I assumed you would continue to have a mask mandate," Dr. Jeremy Faust tweeted shortly after the mandate was lifted by U.S. District Court Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle in Florida. "Now you cancel it and we will have to board our return flight under your new no mask required policy?! Thanks so much."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you always laugh at mothers concerns?


Who is laughing? I am sure neurosis is unpleasant to have. I am also still waiting for all her neurotic supporters to cite the study that indicates the risk to her children. As I stated, if she was so concerned about her children's health with respect to COVID, she should have kept them at home. It's out there and people will catch it - mask mandate or not.

Apologies are due from me to Linus for the invalid comparison. Linus never insisted that others participate in his neurotic behavior.


----------



## crush




----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> I must assume then that you didn't read her tweet.


was there something sciency in the remainder of her tweet?  Bringing an infant onto a plane hoping that everyone remains masked is silly.  People eat and drink for the duration of a  flight.  I've seen people take about 2 hrs to eat pretzels supported by 20 mins sips of coffee.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> It's so confusing for all of us.  One mom wants mask for all and one mom thinks forcing a mask on child is abuse.


Both are a mother’s concerns and should be considered.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Who is laughing? I am sure neurosis is unpleasant to have. I am also still waiting for all her neurotic supporters to cite the study that indicates the risk to her children. As I stated, if she was so concerned about her children's health with respect to COVID, she should have kept them at home. It's out there and people will catch it - mask mandate or not.
> 
> Apologies are due from me to Linus for the invalid comparison. Linus never insisted that others participate in his neurotic behavior.


When it comes to a mother’s children a “study” or select research from someone else’s opinion confirming source are meaningless.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Both are a mother’s concerns and should be considered.


Well, the schools did not consider a mothers concern about the damage a mask does to children.  No mask, no entry.


----------



## crush

Family & Friend Fact:  I have not heard one person in my family or those I know say, "I have the flu" in the last two years.


----------



## Brav520

Though I’m sure Brooke( tweeter) and I disagree about a lot , she makes a good point .

If Brooke doesn’t want to fly because of new mask rule , fine , but Delta changed this mid flight so she was never given a choice .


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> A court (a trump federal judge Iiuc) struck down the airline/transportation mandate. The cdc can still appeal but it will be a tough slog given the airlines, airport authorities, Amtrak and tsa all within a matter of hours ended the mandates and in the case of private companies declined to do voluntary ones. Reports of people cheering mid flight and masking collapsing. The Biden admin might still decide to appeal but given the surprising speed of collapse they’d be swimming against the public. Might portend the end of masking period but too soon to tell (word is Hawaii for example may move to try and reinstate for its flights)


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Though I’m sure Brooke( tweeter) and I disagree about a lot , she makes a good point .
> 
> If Brooke doesn’t want to fly because of new mask rule , fine , but Delta changed this mid flight so she was never given a choice .


I agree.  I bet now they will have "mask flights only" and then "maskless flights only."  I would also like to know if the cockpit crew has been jabbed or not. I want a jabbless and maskless flights or I won;t fly.  I would go crazy sitting between a pro mask and anti mask person and I would be paranoid about if the pilots got jabbed so I just sit this out until this is over with.  No fly dad


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 13317


Uh, what's the death rate in your state again? Why is it that the 10 states with the highest death rates are Mississippi, Arizona, Alabama, Tennessee, West Virginia, Arkansas, New Jersey (which is dropping like a stone compared to your anti-mask/vax states btw), Louisiana, Michigan, and Oklahoma?


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> You're such a lovely, caring person!


Is it possible to care for all people, but just care more for those "Ppl clapped & took off their masks." ?


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, what's the death rate in your state again? Why is it that the 10 states with the highest death rates are Mississippi, Arizona, Alabama, Tennessee, West Virginia, Arkansas, New Jersey (which is dropping like a stone compared to your anti-mask/vax states btw), Louisiana, Michigan, and Oklahoma?


Living in SoCal and just returning from a visit to your neck of the woods, I'd say the vast majority of Californians are anti-mask. The beauty of this country you despise so much, is your freedom to continue wearing as many masks as you choose 24/7. Enjoy.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516209956428599301


She was free to add a second mask to compensate for those removed by others, right? Problem solved.


----------



## MicPaPa

Brav520 said:


> Though I’m sure Brooke( tweeter) and I disagree about a lot , she makes a good point .
> 
> If Brooke doesn’t want to fly because of new mask rule , fine , but Delta changed this mid flight so she was never given a choice .


Same choice she had knowing everyone on the plane would be eating and drinking throughout the flight. If you see an injustice here, you're trying too hard to find one - plays right into the rapidly growing aggrieved culture.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516209956428599301


Maybe she should have paid attention to the news before boarding the flight.  Far riskier places her kids have gone than an airplane.  Her kids can still wear a mask.  Her kids are probably thrilled though to not wear masks unless she poisoned their minds with irrational fear.



Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you always laugh at mothers concerns?


Some people are concerned about vapor trails and bigfoot, but that doesn't mean our lives should revolve around their irrational fears.

It really wouldn't matter when the mask mandates were removed, there will always be someone that is freaked out.  It's endemic, like the flu (although less serious now than the flu) we need to start living with it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Well, the schools did not consider a mothers concern about the damage a mask does to children.  No mask, no entry.


Do you think a mother’s concerns are always justified?


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you think a mother’s concerns are always justified?


What do YOU think...?

You think these parents concerns were valid/justified ?

Their daughter is DEAD due to a forced vaccination.

FORCED VACCINATION.


11-Year-Old Girl From Brazil Died Four Days After She Was Threatened and Forced to Take COVID Vaccine (thegatewaypundit.com)


----------



## watfly

Seems like an odd time for certain people to be all of a sudden concerned about the health and safety of children, along with parental concerns, when the pandemic is over.  Particularly when there were far greater threats to their well being with schools closed and their activities restricted.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Maybe she should have paid attention to the news before boarding the flight.  Far riskier places her kids have gone than an airplane.  Her kids can still wear a mask.  Her kids are probably thrilled though to not wear masks unless she poisoned their minds with irrational fear.
> 
> 
> Some people are concerned about vapor trails and bigfoot, but that doesn't mean our lives should revolve around their irrational fears.
> 
> It really wouldn't matter when the mask mandates were removed, there will always be someone that is freaked out.  It's endemic, like the flu (although less serious now than the flu) we need to start living with it.


The news broke during the flight.  If the pilot were more considerate of his passengers' wishes, he could have held off making the announcement until the plane had arrived, or just said nothing at all.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> The news broke during the flight.  If the pilot were more considerate of his passengers' wishes, he could have held off making the announcement until the plane had arrived, or just said nothing at all.



Kinda like when you LIE !


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you think a mother’s concerns are always justified?


No, but they should be considered.  Do you think a mothers concern to not jab is justified?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> If the pilot were more considerate of his passengers' wishes,


He was considerate of their needs. That is why the plane erupted in applause when they heard the news. 

People are tired of the dog and pony show that is masks.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The news broke during the flight.  If the pilot were more considerate of his passengers' wishes, he could have held off making the announcement until the plane had arrived, or just said nothing at all.


Fair, but how should he decide which passengers' wishes to consider?  Majority vote? Defer to the most fearful?

I can see an argument for not changing rules mid-flight.  But its really irrelevant since your not required to keep your mask on 100% of the time anyway.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> He was considerate of their needs. That is why the plane erupted in applause when they heard the news.
> 
> *People are tired of the dog and pony show that is masks.*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Bob Snow - Airline Pilot who had a heart attack on the flight deck speaks out about the forced vax
					

This is what happens when the lie we participated in yesterday becomes the reality we live in today. What if he had been actually landing the plane? I feel sorry for him, but he should have gotten fired and sued them for firing him instead of trying…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Fair, but how should he decide which passengers' wishes to consider?  Majority vote? Defer to the most fearful?
> 
> I can see an argument for not changing rules mid-flight.  But its really irrelevant since your not required to keep your mask on 100% of the time anyway.


When the plane took off, there was an implicit agreement on what the onboard conditions would be.  Changing those conditions mid-flight is unfair and likely to lead to a consumer lawsuit.  You can't get off the plane midflight.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> He was considerate of their needs. That is why the plane erupted in applause when they heard the news.
> 
> People are tired of the dog and pony show that is masks.


"erupted in applause"?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> When it comes to a mother’s children a “study” or select research from someone else’s opinion confirming source are meaningless.


I agree. As I said, if a parent is concerned, take action. In this case, the mother should avoid being in places she views as unsafe. Mask mandates have never stopped the spread in the US. They are even less useful against the latest variants.


----------



## soccersc

espola said:


> When the plane took off, there was an implicit agreement on what the onboard conditions would be.  Changing those conditions mid-flight is unfair and likely to lead to a consumer lawsuit.  You can't get off the plane midflight.


I can understand you point, but couldn't you make the same argument for someone who wanted to take their mask off? If the mandate changed during flight and they did not allow passengers to remove their mask, couldn't those people have a lawsuit as well?

The real problem is so many people are uneducated and don't really know what is going on


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> When the plane took off, there was an implicit agreement on what the onboard conditions would be.  Changing those conditions mid-flight is unfair and likely to lead to a consumer lawsuit.  You can't get off the plane midflight.


Well only an asshole would sue and if they did there is no basis for damages.  Feeling uncomfortable is not sufficient to claim damages.


----------



## crush

Gilbert Gottfried told everyone vaccination was a matter of life and death. He was right. He died.
					

He pushed and advertised for mass vaccination sites that were open. All of these murder shills for the NWO and the Illuminati that die from these genocidal covid shots, good. I hope they burn in hell for convincing people to take this shit shot. So…




					www.bitchute.com
				




The video is interesting take from Gilbert.  I do not wish anyone to burn in hell.  That's the dude who made the video comment, not mine, fyi


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Well only an asshole would sue and if they did there is no basis for damages.  Feeling uncomfortable is not sufficient to claim damages.


In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


Better Call Saul!


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


I wouldn't recommend that you take that case on contingency.  You can thank me later.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


Keyword being "emotional" - it is the principled foundation to all you lefties lunacy.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> When the plane took off, there was an implicit agreement on what the onboard conditions would be.  Changing those conditions mid-flight is unfair and likely to lead to a consumer lawsuit.  You can't get off the plane midflight.


Does this include at the time every ticket was purchased, genius?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I wouldn't recommend that you take that case on contingency.  You can thank me later.


In my non-legal opinion, hiring a lawyer who can write the appropriate letter will result in a settlement in which the airline pays the lawyer for his time and the offended party gets something that cost the airline essentially nothing, like first-class upgrades on a few future flights.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well only an asshole would sue and if they did there is no basis for damages.  Feeling uncomfortable is not sufficient to claim damages.


The mask rule changed because of a lawsuit, too. 

To me, it’s all a sign that we are allowing administrators and judges to write the laws, instead of congress.  Not a good trend.  At least in theory, we can vote out a congressman or a president.  Nothing we can do when a judge or justice decides he should be in charge.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> The mask rule changed because of a lawsuit, too.
> 
> To me, it’s all a sign that we are allowing administrators and judges to write the laws, instead of congress.  Not a good trend.  At least in theory, we can vote out a congressman or a president.  Nothing we can do when a judge or justice decides he should be in charge.


Or when you let a governor hold emergency powers for over 2 years


----------



## baldref

dad4 said:


> The mask rule changed because of a lawsuit, too.
> 
> To me, it’s all a sign that we are allowing administrators and judges to write the laws, instead of congress.  Not a good trend.  At least in theory, we can vote out a congressman or a president.  Nothing we can do when a judge or justice decides he should be in charge.


The mandate wasn't a law, and that's what the judge ruled on. The CDC isn't supposed to inact laws, therefore the mandate wasn't legal. Or at least that's what this ignorant bystander got out of it.......


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The mask rule changed because of a lawsuit, too.
> 
> To me, it’s all a sign that we are allowing administrators and judges to write the laws, instead of congress.  Not a good trend.  At least in theory, we can vote out a congressman or a president.  Nothing we can do when a judge or justice decides he should be in charge.


I'm not in favor of activist judges either but that's hardly the case here.  The judge ruled the mask mandate on travel was "arbitrary and capricious".  That was a pretty low bar for the plaintiff to prove and a difficult case for the defendant to defend given the overall inconsistency in various restrictions implemented by the Federal government.  Like I said before the burden of proof should be on those imposing the restrictions and not to those objecting.


----------



## Brav520

Biden could have had his majority in Congress pass a mandate for mask and the eviction moratorium ( that also got overturned )


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> To me, it’s all a sign that we are allowing administrators and judges to write the laws, instead of congress.


If anything the judge is saying if you want to make these rules it has to be passed through congress. An agency simply does not have the power to make these broad decisions. 

Judge is saying do it the right way if you want a mask mandate on public transportation. That means going through the house, the senate and then having the prez sign it into law.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> "erupted in applause"?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516207919452327944


espola said:


> "erupted in applause"?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> "erupted in applause"?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516233320430018564


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516207919452327944


@espola posting something loony like "coocoo" in ..3..2..1


----------



## MicPaPa

baldref said:


> The mandate wasn't a law, and that's what the judge ruled on. The CDC isn't supposed to inact laws, therefore the mandate wasn't legal. Or at least that's what this ignorant bystander got out of it.......


Bingo!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> I agree. As I said, if a parent is concerned, take action. In this case, the mother should avoid being in places she views as unsafe. Mask mandates have never stopped the spread in the US. They are even less useful against the latest variants.


Who told you that? Do seat belts save lives? Helmets? Airbags?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> Uh, what's the death rate in your state again? Why is it that the 10 states with the highest death rates are Mississippi, Arizona, Alabama, Tennessee, West Virginia, Arkansas, New Jersey (which is dropping like a stone compared to your anti-mask/vax states btw), Louisiana, Michigan, and Oklahoma?


Clinging to old news like a life raft…….stay thirsty!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> The news broke during the flight.  If the pilot were more considerate of his passengers' wishes, he could have held off making the announcement until the plane had arrived, or just said nothing at all.


Which passengers?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> No, but they should be considered.  Do you think a mothers concern to not jab is justified?


Of course. Mothers worry, as do fathers.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


So I would have grounds to sue you?


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> What do YOU think...?
> 
> You think these parents concerns were valid/justified ?
> 
> Their daughter is DEAD due to a forced vaccination.
> 
> FORCED VACCINATION.
> 
> 
> 11-Year-Old Girl From Brazil Died Four Days After She Was Threatened and Forced to Take COVID Vaccine (thegatewaypundit.com)


Sounds legit.









						Three Louisiana children died of COVID over the past week; total now at 21
					

Three more Louisiana children died of COVID-19 in the last week, bringing the total number of kids who have been lost to the pandemic to 21, state officials said Tuesday.




					www.nola.com
				











						Lakewood child dies of COVID-19, first child death in Pierce County
					

LAKEWOOD, Wash. – Pierce County is reporting its first child COVID-19 death. The Lakewood girl, who is younger than 10, died Jan. 30, she’s the first under 18 death in the county. Officials say she did have multiple underlying health conditions. “This sad news of this young girl’s death reminds...




					komonews.com
				











						Parents Mourn 7-Year-Old Daughter Who Died of COVID Less Than 72 Hours After Testing Positive
					

The parents of 7-year-old Adalyn Graviss are mourning the loss of their daughter, who died less than 72 hours after testing positive for COVID-19




					people.com
				











						Omicron brought 'more severe disease in kids'; 2 Orange County teens died this month
					

Two Orange County teens died of COVID-19 this month, underscoring Omicron's heightened toll on kids across the nation.




					www.latimes.com
				











						4 children have died from COVID-related complications in NJ since Christmas, officials say
					

New Jersey has seen a 2/3 drop in COVID cases over the past two weeks, but there have been four pediatric deaths since Christmas.




					abc7ny.com
				











						She buried her 10-year-old who died from Covid. Less than 24 hours later, she was combating misinformation at a school board meeting | CNN
					

On Sunday, Nicole Sperry said her final goodbyes to her 10-year-old daughter, who died from Covid-19. Less than 24 hours later, she was behind a podium combating misinformation from parents at a Virginia school board meeting.




					www.cnn.com
				








						Idaho public health officials confirm first COVID-19 child death  | Idaho Department of Health and Welfare
					

The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare (DHW) and Southwest District Health (SWDH) have confirmed the first death of an Idaho child due to COVID-19. The child was an infant and died in October.  To protect the privacy of the child’s grieving family, no further details will be released to the...




					healthandwelfare.idaho.gov
				





			https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257546868.html
		



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		









						One-third of US child COVID deaths happened during Omicron surge
					

Since the beginning of the year, 550 children in the US have died from COVID-19, compared with 1,017 kids over the preceding 22 months.




					nypost.com
				











						Eleventh child in Mississippi dies from COVID-19, reports MSDH
					

This brings the total number of children to die in Mississippi from the coronavirus to 11 since the pandemic began in March 2020.




					www.wlox.com
				











						New Hampshire child died of complications related to COVID-19, health officials announce
					

New Hampshire’s first pediatric COVID-19 death occurred in September, state health officials announced on Monday.




					www.wmur.com
				











						Second local child dies from COVID-19
					

The death of a Stafford County boy, under age 10, was reported Wednesday by the Virginia Department of Health.




					fredericksburg.com


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So I would have grounds to sue you?


If you find me offensive, you can get off any time you like.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> If you find me offensive, you can get off any time you like.


It was a Yes or No question.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> In most states, and probably in the US Courts that would have jurisdiction over events occurring in interstate travel, emotional distress is adequate grounds for a lawsuit.


It would seem when an action, a mandate in this case, is deemed unlawful and rescinded it would no longer be a legal action/mandate. So there would be no legal grounds for the airlines to continue enforcing what would then be an invalid requirement.


----------



## MicPaPa

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It was a Yes or No question.


Ask him what applause means.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Sounds legit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three Louisiana children died of COVID over the past week; total now at 21
> 
> 
> Three more Louisiana children died of COVID-19 in the last week, bringing the total number of kids who have been lost to the pandemic to 21, state officials said Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nola.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lakewood child dies of COVID-19, first child death in Pierce County
> 
> 
> LAKEWOOD, Wash. – Pierce County is reporting its first child COVID-19 death. The Lakewood girl, who is younger than 10, died Jan. 30, she’s the first under 18 death in the county. Officials say she did have multiple underlying health conditions. “This sad news of this young girl’s death reminds...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> komonews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents Mourn 7-Year-Old Daughter Who Died of COVID Less Than 72 Hours After Testing Positive
> 
> 
> The parents of 7-year-old Adalyn Graviss are mourning the loss of their daughter, who died less than 72 hours after testing positive for COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron brought 'more severe disease in kids'; 2 Orange County teens died this month
> 
> 
> Two Orange County teens died of COVID-19 this month, underscoring Omicron's heightened toll on kids across the nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 children have died from COVID-related complications in NJ since Christmas, officials say
> 
> 
> New Jersey has seen a 2/3 drop in COVID cases over the past two weeks, but there have been four pediatric deaths since Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7ny.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She buried her 10-year-old who died from Covid. Less than 24 hours later, she was combating misinformation at a school board meeting | CNN
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Nicole Sperry said her final goodbyes to her 10-year-old daughter, who died from Covid-19. Less than 24 hours later, she was behind a podium combating misinformation from parents at a Virginia school board meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idaho public health officials confirm first COVID-19 child death  | Idaho Department of Health and Welfare
> 
> 
> The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare (DHW) and Southwest District Health (SWDH) have confirmed the first death of an Idaho child due to COVID-19. The child was an infant and died in October.  To protect the privacy of the child’s grieving family, no further details will be released to the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthandwelfare.idaho.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257546868.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One-third of US child COVID deaths happened during Omicron surge
> 
> 
> Since the beginning of the year, 550 children in the US have died from COVID-19, compared with 1,017 kids over the preceding 22 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eleventh child in Mississippi dies from COVID-19, reports MSDH
> 
> 
> This brings the total number of children to die in Mississippi from the coronavirus to 11 since the pandemic began in March 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wlox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Hampshire child died of complications related to COVID-19, health officials announce
> 
> 
> New Hampshire’s first pediatric COVID-19 death occurred in September, state health officials announced on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wmur.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second local child dies from COVID-19
> 
> 
> The death of a Stafford County boy, under age 10, was reported Wednesday by the Virginia Department of Health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fredericksburg.com


Did you read any of these?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who told you that? Do seat belts save lives? Helmets? Airbags?


That right-wing-nut rag the NYTimes. BTW, the best way to avoid dying in a car accident is not to wear a seat belt or have a car with an airbag but to avoid getting in a car. Same for riding bikes and motorcycles.









						The C.D.C. concedes that cloth masks do not protect against the virus as effectively as other masks.
					

The update in guidance comes as coronavirus cases continue to soar.




					www.nytimes.com
				




The change comes as infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant continue to soar. Some experts have said that cloth masks are inadequate to protect from the variant, and have urged the C.D.C. to recommend respirators for ordinary citizens.

The agency did not go that far. Its updated language now says that “a respirator may be considered in certain situations and by certain people when greater protection is needed or desired.”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> That right-wing-nut rag the NYTimes. BTW, the best way to avoid dying in a car accident is not to wear a seat belt or have a car with an airbag but to avoid getting in a car. Same for riding bikes and motorcycles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The C.D.C. concedes that cloth masks do not protect against the virus as effectively as other masks.
> 
> 
> The update in guidance comes as coronavirus cases continue to soar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The change comes as infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant continue to soar. Some experts have said that cloth masks are inadequate to protect from the variant, and have urged the C.D.C. to recommend respirators for ordinary citizens.
> 
> The agency did not go that far. Its updated language now says that “a respirator may be considered in certain situations and by certain people when greater protection is needed or desired.”


Just “cloth masks”? How about N95 masks?
And speaking of the NYT . . .








						Nervous about flying? Here’s why a mask will still help protect you even if others aren’t wearing one.
					

There is plenty of evidence showing that masks protect the wearer, even when others around them are mask-free.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just “cloth masks”? How about N95 masks?
> And speaking of the NYT . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nervous about flying? Here’s why a mask will still help protect you even if others aren’t wearing one.
> 
> 
> There is plenty of evidence showing that masks protect the wearer, even when others around them are mask-free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


People could wear any kind of mask - including cloth masks. Again, if concerned, stay home.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> People could wear any kind of mask - including cloth masks. Again, if concerned, stay home.


One thing I have realized through all this. I hope chefs and servers wear masks from now on! If you’ve ever witnessed a chef and server arguing loudly with plates of food between and underneath them you’d agree.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> People could wear any kind of mask - including cloth masks. Again, if concerned, stay home.


. . . actually ALL people preparing food should wear a mask! Hair net?  Who gives a ____!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I was in Whole Foods in Palo Alto today. There was a decent crowd and I estimate at least 75% of the customers were wearing masks. It's the first place in my experience where more customers were wearing masks than employees (less than 50%).


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> . . . actually ALL people preparing food should wear a mask! Hair net?  Who gives a ____!


Best not to think too hard about your food preparers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Best not to think too hard about your food preparers.


Yes, my first tax paying job was at a golf course restaurant. I saw behind the scenes . . . as the saying goes if you work there you probably don’t wanna eat there. Just say’n.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who told you that? Do seat belts save lives? Helmets? Airbags?


This was interesting, both as a headline (given how often this particular metaphor has been used in this thread) and as an allegory to the shift in general perspective as to COVID risk.

https://news.yahoo.com/covid-more-dangerous-driving-scientists-112721912.html?guccounter=1


----------



## crush

Question for the gang.  Diesel is going up and gasoline has come down a little.  Why?


----------



## crush

More questions for the gang

If people who got vaccinated and boosted believe the vaccines work - why are they constantly worried about the unvaccinated?

If people who wear masks believe they work - why are they constantly worried about others not wearing masks?


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, my first tax paying job was at a golf course restaurant. I saw behind the scenes . . . as the saying goes if you work there you probably don’t wanna eat there. Just say’n.


Hmmm......

Looks like we both started in the same industry....
You took a Biden road, I selected one more towards
the TRUTH.
What a pity.


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> Sounds legit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three Louisiana children died of COVID over the past week; total now at 21
> 
> 
> Three more Louisiana children died of COVID-19 in the last week, bringing the total number of kids who have been lost to the pandemic to 21, state officials said Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nola.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lakewood child dies of COVID-19, first child death in Pierce County
> 
> 
> LAKEWOOD, Wash. – Pierce County is reporting its first child COVID-19 death. The Lakewood girl, who is younger than 10, died Jan. 30, she’s the first under 18 death in the county. Officials say she did have multiple underlying health conditions. “This sad news of this young girl’s death reminds...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> komonews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents Mourn 7-Year-Old Daughter Who Died of COVID Less Than 72 Hours After Testing Positive
> 
> 
> The parents of 7-year-old Adalyn Graviss are mourning the loss of their daughter, who died less than 72 hours after testing positive for COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron brought 'more severe disease in kids'; 2 Orange County teens died this month
> 
> 
> Two Orange County teens died of COVID-19 this month, underscoring Omicron's heightened toll on kids across the nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 children have died from COVID-related complications in NJ since Christmas, officials say
> 
> 
> New Jersey has seen a 2/3 drop in COVID cases over the past two weeks, but there have been four pediatric deaths since Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7ny.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She buried her 10-year-old who died from Covid. Less than 24 hours later, she was combating misinformation at a school board meeting | CNN
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Nicole Sperry said her final goodbyes to her 10-year-old daughter, who died from Covid-19. Less than 24 hours later, she was behind a podium combating misinformation from parents at a Virginia school board meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idaho public health officials confirm first COVID-19 child death  | Idaho Department of Health and Welfare
> 
> 
> The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare (DHW) and Southwest District Health (SWDH) have confirmed the first death of an Idaho child due to COVID-19. The child was an infant and died in October.  To protect the privacy of the child’s grieving family, no further details will be released to the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthandwelfare.idaho.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257546868.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One-third of US child COVID deaths happened during Omicron surge
> 
> 
> Since the beginning of the year, 550 children in the US have died from COVID-19, compared with 1,017 kids over the preceding 22 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eleventh child in Mississippi dies from COVID-19, reports MSDH
> 
> 
> This brings the total number of children to die in Mississippi from the coronavirus to 11 since the pandemic began in March 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wlox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Hampshire child died of complications related to COVID-19, health officials announce
> 
> 
> New Hampshire’s first pediatric COVID-19 death occurred in September, state health officials announced on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wmur.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second local child dies from COVID-19
> 
> 
> The death of a Stafford County boy, under age 10, was reported Wednesday by the Virginia Department of Health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fredericksburg.com



The TRUTH is quite a reality check.
Especially when the LIES were your only support.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> If anything the judge is saying if you want to make these rules it has to be passed through congress. An agency simply does not have the power to make these broad decisions.
> 
> Judge is saying do it the right way if you want a mask mandate on public transportation. That means going through the house, the senate and then having the prez sign it into law.


In this particular case, there was a law passed.  It explicitly gave CDC director the power to make policy to "provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary."

The law explicitly defers to the judgement of the CDC director to determine what is and what is not necessary.  The law does not authorize a judge to substitute her views for those of the CDC director.

This is a clear case of an activist judge.  She had a law in front of her.  The law clearly defers to the judgement of the CDC director.  And the judge does whatever she wants anyway.  

Same problem as Row v Wade.  A judge or justice reads the law, but doesn’t like what it says.  So the judge invents things that aren’t in the law to get the result they want.

Sometimes I agree with the judge’s policy decision, sometimes I don’t.  But in no case do I like this process.  There is a reason we do not have lifetime appointments for policy-making positions.  When judges start making policy, that’s exactly what we have.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> In this particular case, there was a law passed.  It explicitly gave CDC director the power to make policy to "provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary."
> 
> The law explicitly defers to the judgement of the CDC director to determine what is and what is not necessary.  The law does not authorize a judge to substitute her views for those of the CDC director.
> 
> This is a clear case of an activist judge.  She had a law in front of her.  The law clearly defers to the judgement of the CDC director.  And the judge does whatever she wants anyway.
> 
> Same problem as Row v Wade.  A judge or justice reads the law, but doesn’t like what it says.  So the judge invents things that aren’t in the law to get the result they want.
> 
> Sometimes I agree with the judge’s policy decision, sometimes I don’t.  But in no case do I like this process.  There is a reason we do not have lifetime appointments for policy-making positions.  When judges start making policy, that’s exactly what we have.


The judge in question was rated "non-qualified" by the ABA due to her complete lack of courtroom experience when t nominated her after he lost the election in November 2020.  Moscow Mitch still controlled the Senate then, so she sailed through without a single Democrat voting for her confirmation.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> In this particular case, there was a law passed.  It explicitly gave CDC director the power to make policy to "provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary."
> 
> The law explicitly defers to the judgement of the CDC director to determine what is and what is not necessary.  The law does not authorize a judge to substitute her views for those of the CDC director.
> 
> This is a clear case of an activist judge.  She had a law in front of her.  The law clearly defers to the judgement of the CDC director.  And the judge does whatever she wants anyway.
> 
> Same problem as Row v Wade.  A judge or justice reads the law, but doesn’t like what it says.  So the judge invents things that aren’t in the law to get the result they want.
> 
> Sometimes I agree with the judge’s policy decision, sometimes I don’t.  But in no case do I like this process.  There is a reason we do not have lifetime appointments for policy-making positions.  When judges start making policy, that’s exactly what we have.


Actually the judge cited a case regarding the CDC and this issue where the SC said they did not have blanket authority. So not an activist judge. She used an opinion regarding the CDC issue by the SC. That was in Aug of 2021. And that opinion stated the CDC cannot act in certain ways. 

There are a variety of legal issues that have come before the SC where they rules agencies did not/do not have blanket power. 

The press likes to leave that out.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The judge in question was rated "non-qualified" by the ABA due to her complete lack of courtroom experience when t nominated her after he lost the election in November 2020.  Moscow Mitch still controlled the Senate then, so she sailed through with a single Democrat voting for her confirmation.


The ABA long ago stopped being a neutral party. They today are mainly a leftist organization.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The ABA long ago stopped being a neutral party. They today are mainly a leftist organization.


It appears that you agree with me completely.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Actually the judge cited a case regarding the CDC and this issue where the SC said they did not have blanket authority. So not an activist judge. She used an opinion regarding the CDC issue by the SC. That was in Aug of 2021. And that opinion stated the CDC cannot act in certain ways.
> 
> There are a variety of legal issues that have come before the SC where they rules agencies did not/do not have blanket power.
> 
> The press likes to leave that out.


In her opinion, she said about masks "At most, it traps virus droplets".  

That is exactly their function.


----------



## espola

The more I see examples of people who graduated law school, passed the bar exam somewhere, and became judges, I lament that I didn't pursue that career option.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> In her opinion, she said about masks "At most, it traps virus droplets".
> 
> That is exactly their function.


Yep to catch droplets. However a virus particle is vastly smaller and they are not designed to stop the spread of an virus. 

But you pretend not to know that. 

Also if masks work, getting rid of the travel mandate wont make a difference. After all the function of your mask does not depend on whether or not I am wearing one.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> It appears that you agree with me completely.


In that they didn't like her because they are leftists? Absolutely. They have been rather partisan for some time. 

That is why their opinion outside of leftist circles carries little to no weight.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> The more I see examples of people who graduated law school, passed the bar exam somewhere, and became judges, I lament that I didn't pursue that career option.


So you could be a partisan hack on the bench and not just on a soccer forum?

Yep you missed your calling. 

 I can see you now. Your honor, the law clearly states X and X. And all day long your go to response would be...LINK?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Yep to catch droplets. However a virus particle is vastly smaller and they are not designed to stop the spread of an virus.
> 
> But you pretend not to know that.
> 
> Also if masks work, getting rid of the travel mandate wont make a difference. After all the function of your mask does not depend on whether or not I am wearing one.


We have been through this many times before, so by now I must believe that you are either a bonehead or a liar.  Your pick.  The virus does not survive outside the exhaled drops, exactly those that a mask is intended to stop.


----------



## Brav520

CDC recommends DOJ appeal the decision


----------



## Brav520

Interested to see how this experiment goes 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516592996086542336


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> We have been through this many times before, so by now I must believe that you are either a bonehead or a liar.  Your pick.  The virus does not survive outside the exhaled drops, exactly those that a mask is intended to stop.


How many times does this have to be revisited?  Masks are hardly effective.  Effective against droplets...sure, against aerosol transmission? not even close.  The idea that we've gone years wearing cloth diapers on our faces is hysterical.  Luckily, most of society is cordial and wore them to make others feel better.  Humans aren't so bad after all, even though many humans recognize the silliness of cloth masks.  Luv the bandanas and the neck gators though - lovely way to spruce up your outfit from time to time.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> How many times does this have to be revisited?  Masks are hardly effective.  Effective against droplets...sure, against aerosol transmission? not even close.  The idea that we've gone years wearing cloth diapers on our faces is hysterical.  Luckily, most of society is cordial and wore them to make others feel better.  Humans aren't so bad after all, even though many humans recognize the silliness of cloth masks.  Luv the bandanas and the neck gators though - lovely way to spruce up your outfit from time to time.


Do you want to restart the whole mask education program again?

Heavy sigh --









						Can face masks protect against COVID-19?
					

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> CDC recommends DOJ appeal the decision


DOJ appealed today.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> DOJ appealed today.


i didn’t see that

I’m seeing notice of appeal, the formal appeal has been filed ?

think DOJ slow walks this , try to get better idea of political winds , which do not appear to be in their favor at this point


----------



## watfly

Apparently the talking points got mixed up in the mail.









						Fifty-nine percent support axed federal mask mandate on planes
					

Staggering new poll reveals that 59 percent of Americans supported the federal mask mandate that Trump-appointed judge US District Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle struck down this week.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> In her opinion, she said about masks "At most, it traps virus droplets".
> 
> That is exactly their function.


The impressive part is how she managed to become an expert on aerosol dynamics without ever taking an advanced physics class.

That, or she's straying about eight miles outside her lane.


----------



## Brav520

Actually , doesn’t the case become Moot after 5/3 anyways ?  That’s when the mandate was set to expire


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> In that they didn't like her because they are leftists? Absolutely. They have been rather partisan for some time.
> 
> That is why their opinion outside of leftist circles carries little to no weight.


He pretends not to know that also.


----------



## MicPaPa

Brav520 said:


> CDC recommends DOJ appeal the decision


The CDC, along with the science and medical communities, have pretty much drained their credibility at this point.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> The CDC, along with the science and medical communities, have pretty much drained their credibility at this point.


Shouldn't we should check with the teachers union to see if that is the case? It's what the CDC does before presenting # science-based mandates.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> Interested to see how this experiment goes
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516592996086542336


That's nothing. If you want to see non-stop whining, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, wait until mid-terms.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> That's nothing. If you want to see non-stop whining, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, wait until mid-terms.


This summer is going to be crazy insane in some places


----------



## crush

*New VAERS reporting numbers of Covid 19 "vaccine" adverse events through 4/8/22.  How many go unreported?  1%?*
*
26,876   deaths
149,527 Hospital visits
137,492 Urgent care
50,100 permanently disabled
15,110 Bells Palsy
38,605 Myocarditis
13,819 Heart Attacks*
*4,396 Miscarriages*


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> In that they didn't like her because they are leftists? Absolutely. They have been rather partisan for some time.
> 
> That is why their opinion outside of leftist circles carries little to no weight.


ABA didn’t like her because she’s a newbie.

He newbie status is evident in her writing.   She clearly never bothered to pick up a law dictionary and look up the _legal_ definition of ”sanitation”.

Politicians in robes, and nothing more.  Both parties seems happy to just nominate the youngest person available who will vote their way.  We could have had people like Bork and Garland.  Instead we get political appointees like Kagan.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> Do you want to restart the whole mask education program again?
> 
> Heavy sigh --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can face masks protect against COVID-19?
> 
> 
> Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mayoclinic.org


that's right, education.  Droplets, aerosol, science.  I know you want to believe and you have to believe.  It's good the pandemic is over, that vaccines kinda work, and that masking provided little mitigation.   With that said, if masking helped people cope, then they were a success.  What's going to happen to those people now?  We will see.  Ripping off the band aid mid flight likely wreaked havoc on some people.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> He newbie status is evident in her writing. She clearly never bothered to pick up a law dictionary and look up the _legal_ definition of ”sanitation”.


_Mizelle served as a law clerk to judge James S. Moody Jr. of the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida from 2012 to 2013 and to judge William H. Pryor Jr. of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit from 2013 to 2014. She worked as a trial attorney in the Tax Division of the United States Department of Justice from 2014 to 2017, and was detailed as a Special Assistant United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia from 2014–2015. Mizelle was counsel to the United States Associate Attorney General from 2017 to 2018. In 2018, she briefly clerked for judge Gregory G. Katsas of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, and then clerked for justice Clarence Thomas of the U.S. Supreme Court from 2018 to 2019._

She is well aware of legal issues and clerked for judges at the top levels of the judiciary...from district courts, to the circuits, to the supreme court. 

The ABA is leftist, and most of the press is leftist and they view her through that prism. 

She based her decision in part based on what the SC has decided recently regarding the CDC and its authority.

Can her decision be overturned? Sure. I make no predictions regarding regarding that. I do however find it interesting that while the DOJ is now going to fight this in court, *they have NOT asked for a stay of the ruling*. They are playing politics on that. By saying they are going to fight this in court, *it placates the small but vocal D base that wants masks now*, while at the same time not pissing off the majority of the population who has no interest in being part of the mask dog and pony show anymore. 

My main point however is this....I am just saying the way she is portrayed in most of the media is misleading. In most cases with most major media it is hard to find the light between how they report and Democrat talking points.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> that's right, education.  Droplets, aerosol, science.  I know you want to believe and you have to believe.  It's good the pandemic is over, that vaccines kinda work, and that masking provided little mitigation.   With that said, if masking helped people cope, then they were a success.  What's going to happen to those people now?  We will see.  Ripping off the band aid mid flight likely wreaked havoc on some people.


The problem espola and others have is this. 

The efficacy of espola's mask does not depend on whether or not someone else is wearing a mask or not. If they work, then a lifting of a travel mask mandate makes little difference since those that want to wear a mask still can. 

But as we look at infection rates between mandate states and non mandate states unfortunately we do not see any correlation between wearing masks and infection. If there were any studies showing masks were effective...we would KNOW about those now. And yet years into this we don't have those studies. Rather telling. But when you BELIEVE in something it takes on more of a religious feeling...facts be dammed.

And yet as we look at the data regarding infection rates in mandate vs non mandate states we see no real difference in infection rates.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> She clearly never bothered to pick up a law dictionary and look up the _legal_ definition of ”sanitation”.


The other thing you miss is this. 

She looked (as one part of this) at the directive giving to the CDC by congress as it relates to sanitation. In her determination they way it was stated does not give the CDC broad authority to mandate masks throughout nationwide public transportation. 

Whether or not her ruling holds up, once again it has been reported by a left leaning press as if she doesn't know what the term means. That obscures the fact/reasoning of what she was actually saying. Most people look at a headline or a paragraph or so...and the narrative is created. 

It is far more complex vs saying she doesn't know what the legal definition of sanitation means. What it means varies depending on how it is used in a specific law. It can mean one thing based on how one law is written, and another thing based on how another law is written. That is how/why things end up in court...ie to try to determine the meaning of what the authors of the law really meant, and if there are any boundaries to what they intended.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> The problem espola and others have is this.
> 
> The efficacy of espola's mask does not depend on whether or not someone else is wearing a mask or not. If they work, then a lifting of a travel mask mandate makes little difference since those that want to wear a mask still can.
> 
> But as we look at infection rates between mandate states and non mandate states unfortunately we do not see any correlation between wearing masks and infection. If there were any studies showing masks were effective...we would KNOW about those now. And yet years into this we don't have those studies. Rather telling. But when you BELIEVE in something it takes on more of a religious feeling...facts be dammed.
> 
> And yet as we look at the data regarding infection rates in mandate vs non mandate states we see no real difference in infection rates.
> 
> View attachment 13327


It's all nonsense.  Hyper partisan politics driving public health policy in the face of a novel disease is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> The problem espola and others have is this.
> 
> The efficacy of espola's mask does not depend on whether or not someone else is wearing a mask or not. If they work, then a lifting of a travel mask mandate makes little difference since those that want to wear a mask still can.
> 
> But as we look at infection rates between mandate states and non mandate states unfortunately we do not see any correlation between wearing masks and infection. If there were any studies showing masks were effective...we would KNOW about those now. And yet years into this we don't have those studies. Rather telling. But when you BELIEVE in something it takes on more of a religious feeling...facts be dammed.
> 
> And yet as we look at the data regarding infection rates in mandate vs non mandate states we see no real difference in infection rates.
> 
> View attachment 13327


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> The problem espola and others have is this.
> 
> The efficacy of espola's mask does not depend on whether or not someone else is wearing a mask or not. If they work, then a lifting of a travel mask mandate makes little difference since those that want to wear a mask still can.
> 
> But as we look at infection rates between mandate states and non mandate states unfortunately we do not see any correlation between wearing masks and infection. If there were any studies showing masks were effective...we would KNOW about those now. And yet years into this we don't have those studies. Rather telling. But when you BELIEVE in something it takes on more of a religious feeling...facts be dammed.
> 
> And yet as we look at the data regarding infection rates in mandate vs non mandate states we see no real difference in infection rates.
> 
> View attachment 13327


You just hit on the lefts whole game - it's not about what they believe, it's about everyone else believing what they believe.

Of course logic says, if they believe in masks then they can continue wearing them, and whether others wear them would be irrelevant.

But like with everything on the left, it's about emotion, and they can't handle the fact that most people would not be wearing them, thus making them look wrong and foolish.

You see, when they can't make the case and convince people, they have to mandate, attack, and sensor anyone who does not see it their way.....that's how they roll.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> You just hit on the lefts whole game - it's not about what they believe, it's about everyone else believing what they believe.
> 
> Of course logic says, if they believe in masks then they can continue wearing them, and whether others wear them would be irrelevant.
> 
> But like with everything on the left, it's about emotion, and they can't handle the fact that most people would not be wearing them, thus making them look wrong and foolish.
> 
> You see, when they can't make the case and convince people, they have to mandate, attack, and sensor anyone who does not see it their way.....that's how they roll.


And people fired for not obeying the jab   I'm still shocked how easy it was to buy people with jobs, bribes and blackmail.  More news will be dripping and it will get nasty.


----------



## soccersc

@GoldenGate and @dad4 were so adamant that mask were working...they complained and told those who didn't want to wear mask to stop whining...well, they couldn't have been more wrong and now even the San Francisco Chronicle is posting and article from 4 doctors that mask don't work.  We sure don't hear much from those guys anymore around here and as time goes on the truth and the proof will continue to reveal itself! Hopefully they learn!









						Four COVID experts say it’s time to accept reality: Vaccines work, mask mandates don't
					

It’s time to reassess our COVID prevention strategies in and outside of schools and...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> _Mizelle served as a law clerk to judge James S. Moody Jr. of the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida from 2012 to 2013 and to judge William H. Pryor Jr. of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit from 2013 to 2014. She worked as a trial attorney in the Tax Division of the United States Department of Justice from 2014 to 2017, and was detailed as a Special Assistant United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia from 2014–2015. Mizelle was counsel to the United States Associate Attorney General from 2017 to 2018. In 2018, she briefly clerked for judge Gregory G. Katsas of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, and then clerked for justice Clarence Thomas of the U.S. Supreme Court from 2018 to 2019._
> 
> She is well aware of legal issues and clerked for judges at the top levels of the judiciary...from district courts, to the circuits, to the supreme court.
> 
> The ABA is leftist, and most of the press is leftist and they view her through that prism.
> 
> She based her decision in part based on what the SC has decided recently regarding the CDC and its authority.
> 
> Can her decision be overturned? Sure. I make no predictions regarding regarding that. I do however find it interesting that while the DOJ is now going to fight this in court, *they have NOT asked for a stay of the ruling*. They are playing politics on that. By saying they are going to fight this in court, *it placates the small but vocal D base that wants masks now*, while at the same time not pissing off the majority of the population who has no interest in being part of the mask dog and pony show anymore.
> 
> My main point however is this....I am just saying the way she is portrayed in most of the media is misleading. In most cases with most major media it is hard to find the light between how they report and Democrat talking points.


So, she was a tax lawyer for 3 years, a clerk for 4 years, and counsel to an associate AG?

Sounds like a newbie to me.  

When did she take her aerosol physics classes?  I hear she thinks she‘s something of an expert of the subject.


----------



## Desert Hound

soccersc said:


> @GoldenGate and @dad4 were so adamant that mask were working...they complained and told those who didn't want to wear mask to stop whining...well, they couldn't have been more wrong and now even the San Francisco Chronicle is posting and article from 4 doctors that mask don't work.  We sure don't hear much from those guys anymore around here and as time goes on the truth and the proof will continue to reveal itself! Hopefully they learn!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four COVID experts say it’s time to accept reality: Vaccines work, mask mandates don't
> 
> 
> It’s time to reassess our COVID prevention strategies in and outside of schools and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfchronicle.com


So we are back to what the CDC and other health organizations knew long ago. Masks are not effective at stopping respiratory virus type infections. Funny how that works.


_*There is a growing consensus that cloth masks do very little to prevent the SARS-CoV-2 virus from spreading. Even surgical masks are probably only **marginally effective.* Although N95 and KN95 masks have shown some effectiveness for preventing infection when worn by vulnerable individuals, t*hese higher-quality devices only work provided the mask is worn correctly —* a particularly challenging task for younger children, who remove and reapply their masks throughout the day.

So far only two randomized controlled trials — the highest standard of evidence — have been conducted to test masking for COVID prevention. A Danish study found no statistically significant benefit from surgical masks. A study in Bangladesh reported no benefit from cloth masks and only very modest impact from surgical masks (which appeared to evaporate in a subsequent reanalysis of the raw data). *This is unsurprising, given that numerous controlled trials in health care and other settings have similarly found masks to be ineffective for preventing the spread of other respiratory viruses such as influenza.*_


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> When did she take her aerosol physics classes? I hear she thinks she‘s something of an expert of the subject.


In very large numbers of cases, judges are not experts in the matter at hand.

In a crime case...they are not experts in forensics.

In telecommunication cases...they are not experts in the technology underlying the issues.

Etc etc.

Their job is to rule on the law and how it was written and if the law is applied correctly.

If you go by the standard a judge has to be an expert to be a judge in a case, then in an amazing amount of cases they are not.

That is rather a weak argument on your part. One that does stand up to scrutiny.

They rule on a huge variety of issues of which they have no expertise in.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> And people fired for not obeying the jab   I'm still shocked how easy it was to buy people with jobs, bribes and blackmail.  More news will be dripping and it will get nasty.


I just fired yet anti-vaxxer.  It was so much fun.  She came begging for her job back after the EDD told her to "stick it" by denying her unemployment. Ha ha. I can't wait until you're all unemployed.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So we are back to what the CDC and other health organizations knew long ago. Masks are not effective at stopping respiratory virus type infections. Funny how that works.
> 
> 
> _*There is a growing consensus that cloth masks do very little to prevent the SARS-CoV-2 virus from spreading. Even surgical masks are probably only **marginally effective.* Although N95 and KN95 masks have shown some effectiveness for preventing infection when worn by vulnerable individuals, t*hese higher-quality devices only work provided the mask is worn correctly —* a particularly challenging task for younger children, who remove and reapply their masks throughout the day.
> 
> So far only two randomized controlled trials — the highest standard of evidence — have been conducted to test masking for COVID prevention. A Danish study found no statistically significant benefit from surgical masks. A study in Bangladesh reported no benefit from cloth masks and only very modest impact from surgical masks (which appeared to evaporate in a subsequent reanalysis of the raw data). *This is unsurprising, given that numerous controlled trials in health care and other settings have similarly found masks to be ineffective for preventing the spread of other respiratory viruses such as influenza.*_


Did you know that you can type *anything you want* in these boxes, but if you include some *bold text* and a *link*, it looks like you actually quoted someone competent?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> In very large numbers of cases, judges are not experts in the matter at hand.
> 
> In a crime case...they are not experts in forensics.
> 
> In telecommunication cases...they are not experts in the technology underlying the issues.
> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> Their job is to rule on the law and how it was written and if the law is applied correctly.
> 
> If you go by the standard a judge has to be an expert to be a judge in a case, then in an amazing amount of cases they are not.
> 
> That is rather a weak argument on your part. One that does stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> They rule on a huge variety of issues of which they have no expertise in.


My point is that judges often issue rulings based on things they don’t understand, and they are wrong to do so.

It’s a real problem in criminal justice.  Prosecution would select experts who made wildly exaggerated claims about the accuracy of specific methods, like hair analysis.   

Later, when real science was available, we find out that hair analysis was about as accurate as phrenology.    But hundreds of judges fell for it hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## thirteenknots

Desert Hound said:


> The problem espola and others have is this.
> 
> The efficacy of espola's mask does not depend on whether or not someone else is wearing a mask or not. If they work, then a lifting of a travel mask mandate makes little difference since those that want to wear a mask still can.
> 
> But as we look at infection rates between mandate states and non mandate states unfortunately we do not see any correlation between wearing masks and infection. If there were any studies showing masks were effective...we would KNOW about those now. And yet years into this we don't have those studies. Rather telling. But when you BELIEVE in something it takes on more of a religious feeling...facts be dammed.
> 
> And yet as we look at the data regarding infection rates in mandate vs non mandate states we see no real difference in infection rates.
> 
> View attachment 13327



The CULT of Covid-19 + ( The Jab ) = Jim Jones Koolaid

One killed rather quick, the other takes about 18 months.

The end result is the same.


----------



## espola

thirteenknots said:


> ...


I see no problem with that.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> I see no problem with that.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

GoldenGate said:


> I just fired yet anti-vaxxer.  It was so much fun.  She came begging for her job back after the EDD told her to "stick it" by denying her unemployment. Ha ha. I can't wait until you're all unemployed.


More proof you’re just an attention hungry POS!


----------



## thirteenknots

GoldenGate said:


> I just fired yet anti-vaxxer.  It was so much fun.  She came begging for her job back after the EDD told her to "stick it" by denying her unemployment. Ha ha. I can't wait until you're all unemployed.





Kicker 2.0 said:


> More proof you’re just an attention hungry POS!


That is not something to brag about GoldenGate, you are one
vindictive POS.....
You better watch your back with spiteful actions like that.


----------



## Brav520

You people really believe Golden Gate is employed in a position where has the authority to hire and fire people ?


----------



## GoldenGate

thirteenknots said:


> That is not something to brag about GoldenGate, you are one
> vindictive POS.....
> You better watch your back with spiteful actions like that.


I'm not the insubordinate anti-vaxxer who refused to wear a mask indoors.  Good riddance.  She can exercise her "freedom" to work somewhere else.


----------



## Brav520

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the insubordinate anti-vaxxer who refused to wear a mask indoors.  Good riddance.  She can exercise her "freedom" to work somewhere else.


not believing this

I can’t imagine someone who has the authority to terminate people”s employment would post something like this


----------



## what-happened

Brav520 said:


> not believing this
> 
> I can’t imagine someone who has the authority to terminate people”s employment would post something like this


GG doesn't, GG read it on reddit and thought it would be cool to post.  Or maybe overheard conversation at the grocery store checkout line...and thought it would be cool to post.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the insubordinate anti-vaxxer who refused to wear a mask indoors.  *Good riddance.*  She can exercise her "freedom" to work somewhere else.


So funny, I'm sure finger snapping was involved when the termination notice was given.  So much flair, so much.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> So, she was a tax lawyer for 3 years, a clerk for 4 years, and counsel to an associate AG?
> 
> Sounds like a newbie to me.
> 
> When did she take her aerosol physics classes?  I hear she thinks she‘s something of an expert of the subject.


Curious, you still wearing a mask?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Did you know that you can type *anything you want* in these boxes, but if you include some *bold text* and a *link*, it looks like you actually quoted someone competent?


Well that's what social media is all about, right. Arguing policy is one thing.  Anybody's opinion goes.  Arguing the basis for policy is different, and appeal to authority is how that game is played in a public forum.  For example, the Ian Miller graph on masks that came up awhile ago.  His analysis is based on NYT data off Github, but he never provides information-at least on his Twitter site-on how he processes that data to derive his graph.  Without that its kind of information its just another trust issue.  And in point of fact, since I've done it, you can down load the county resolution data from NYT and by binning it one way you can get all kinds of different things.  Obviously lots of variables in play.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not the insubordinate anti-vaxxer who refused to wear a mask indoors.  Good riddance.  She can exercise her "freedom" to work somewhere else.


I'm sure she's a lot better off than working for you!!! Probably why she choose that in the first place


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Did you know that you can type *anything you want* in these boxes, but if you include some *bold text* and a *link*, it looks like you actually quoted someone competent?


Did you know that when someone clearly identifies how wrong you were, you instantly deflect and write something that is totally irrelevant?

Just come clean! It will feel so much better...just say, yep, I was wrong, I believed those in power and they mislead me, I will be more selective in those I put my trust in and be careful who I criticize when they can actually be right!!!!   and now you know!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> More proof you’re just an attention hungry POS!


Hahaha! I wonder how he felt when he woke up? At least the facility is giving him ample time on the internet to exercise his "Walter Mitty" side.


----------



## Brav520

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! I wonder how he felt when he woke up? At least the facility is giving him ample time on the internet to exercise his "Walter Mitty" side.


found him


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517161394663313409


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> I'm sure she's a lot better off than working for you!!! Probably why she choose that in the first place


Crying for her job back was not a good look.  So embarrassing.


----------



## soccersc

GoldenGate said:


> Crying for her job back was not a good look.  So embarrassing.


Sometimes you don't realize how good you have it until you step back and look from a different perspective...give her time, she will realize that she is much better off


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Curious, you still wearing a mask?


Why not? 

I don't hate them like you do.  They remain a low cost way to moderately reduce transmission.  

We can assume that you or hound or someone similar will copy and paste some kind of misinformation claiming that masks are horrible and do nothing.  It will have some bold letters and a link to a study that says the opposite of what you claim.


----------



## GoldenGate

soccersc said:


> Sometimes you don't realize how good you have it until you step back and look from a different perspective...give her time, she will realize that she is much better off


Yes, crush has also found the unemployed life to be very fulfilling.  I can't wait until employment reference requests start coming in.  Do you think snowflake karen will lead off interviews by asking if they share her anti-vax/mask sentiment?  Or do you think she'll resign herself to being permanently unemployed and spend the rest of her life wondering how everyone hides the bat wings they sprouted after getting vaxxed?


----------



## GoldenGate

dad4 said:


> Why not?
> 
> I don't hate them like you do.  They remain a low cost way to moderately reduce transmission.
> 
> We can assume that you or hound or someone similar will copy and paste some kind of misinformation claiming that masks are horrible and do nothing.  It will have some bold letters and a link to a study that says the opposite of what you claim.


They are such weak snowflakes.  Seriously, grown adults whining constantly about how wearing a mask is too hard for them physically and emotionally. What do you think caused the mental break that took them from thinking they were tough to being scared of a piece of fabric?  And, go figure, they're almost always the same people who are also scared of Disneyland and trans women.  So pathetic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> You people really believe Golden Gate is employed in a position where has the authority to hire and fire people ?


I guess if telling yourself that makes you feel better about yourself go for it. You people tell yourselves all kinds of fictitious fairy tales already. It’s what you base your entire existence on! Lol!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Circle-jerk clones unite! So predictable.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> They are such weak snowflakes.  Seriously, grown adults whining constantly about how wearing a mask is too hard for them physically and emotionally. What do you think caused the mental break that took them from thinking they were tough to being scared of a piece of fabric?  And, go figure, they're almost always the same people who are also scared of Disneyland and trans women.  So pathetic.


They are afraid of everything. They lash out at things that they fear. They claim to be all about “freedom” yet constantly whine about how others live. The funny part is they think no one notices how weak and frail they come off as.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Right on cue! Add another to the circle!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The expectation of insecurity is mind-boggling. This reads like The Onion.









						We need to stop complimenting weight loss. Here's what to say instead | CNN
					

Compliments about weight loss are often well-meaning but can have negative consequences. Here's why they're problematic, and what to say instead.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> I guess if telling yourself that makes you feel better about yourself go for it. You people tell yourselves all kinds of fictitious fairy tales already. It’s what you base your entire existence on! Lol!


Think a little, jeez 

You think someone in charge of terminating employees is going post that on a public message board?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Why not?
> 
> I don't hate them like you do.  They remain a low cost way to moderately reduce transmission.
> 
> We can assume that you or hound or someone similar will copy and paste some kind of misinformation claiming that masks are horrible and do nothing.  It will have some bold letters and a link to a study that says the opposite of what you claim.


I choose not to. Why so defensive and angry?

Life is too short, so I really don't hate, especially a mask. I do despise mandating masks.

Curious, do you still require your kids to wear masks in school?


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> They are afraid of everything. They lash out at things that they fear. They claim to be all about “freedom” yet constantly whine about how others live. The funny part is they think no one notices how weak and frail they come off as.


Ah, @Fister Du and @GoldenShower playing hide the salami.....how cute.


----------



## espola

Don't know if this is legit --


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Don't know if this is legit --
> 
> View attachment 13336


...don't care.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Don't know if this is legit --
> 
> View attachment 13336


BREAKING NEWS!!!!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> ABA didn’t like her because she’s a newbie.
> 
> He newbie status is evident in her writing.   She clearly never bothered to pick up a law dictionary and look up the _legal_ definition of ”sanitation”.
> 
> Politicians in robes, and nothing more.  Both parties seems happy to just nominate the youngest person available who will vote their way.  We could have had people like Bork and Garland.  Instead we get political appointees like Kagan.


Id rather have  a 33 year old judge than a nearly 80 year old president.  I think any sane would want that.


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> I choose not to. Why so defensive and angry?
> 
> Life is too short, so I really don't hate, especially a mask. I do despise mandating masks.
> 
> Curious, do you still require your kids to wear masks in school?


Why so angry?  

Read the posts from your side.  It's a constant stream of insults.  Y'all can't simply see the other side as people with a different opinion.  There is always one of you with a comment about hating children or being fearful or not understanding basic facts.

So, instead of reading some boldface tripe from hound, I chose to predict it instead.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Why so angry?
> 
> Read the posts from your side.  It's a constant stream of insults.  Y'all can't simply see the other side as people with a different opinion.  There is always one of you with a comment about hating children or being fearful or not understanding basic facts.
> 
> So, instead of reading some boldface tripe from hound, I chose to predict it instead.


Yes, angry?

The "other side" lost me early on with direct accusations of killing my neighbors - a tad more than "different opinion."

Again curious, do you still require your kids to wear masks in school?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Why so angry?
> 
> Read the posts from your side.  It's a constant stream of insults.  Y'all can't simply see the other side as people with a different opinion.


Self-aware much? “Your side” has someone celebrating firing someone. I mean, that poster is pretty obviously a broken person and making shit up but he is from “your side”. Best to stick with dealing with individuals.

From my perspective it’s not the difference of opinion that is bothering those who you refer to, it’s that someone else’s opinion/perspective is being forced upon them - by compulsive lying hypocrites no less (not you, our “leaders”).


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> Yes, angry?
> 
> The "other side" lost me early on with direct accusations of killing my neighbors - a tad more than "different opinion."
> 
> Again curious, do you still require your kids to wear masks in school?


My kids go by the school rules.  It's not my choice, or theirs.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Self-aware much? “Your side” has someone celebrating firing someone. I mean, that poster is pretty obviously a broken person and making shit up but he is from “your side”. Best to stick with dealing with individuals.
> 
> From my perspective it’s not the difference of opinion that is bothering those who you refer to, it’s that someone else’s opinion/perspective is being forced upon them - by compulsive lying hypocrites no less (not you, our “leaders”).


Remember that most of us ignore Golden Gate.  You don't have to copy his style by calling people circle jerks.  It's better to just pretend he doesn't exist.

I tend to agree more with Husker and Espola on covid, but watfly, you, or kicker on economics.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Remember that most of us ignore Golden Gate.  You don't have to copy his style by calling people circle jerks.


I thought you did nuance. He calls people names and accuses them of racism and misogyny when they disagree with him. I am simply identifying behavior with an appropriate albeit profane moniker. No one who ignores him was included. It’s well earned and not his style.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> The expectation of insecurity is mind-boggling. This reads like The Onion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We need to stop complimenting weight loss. Here's what to say instead | CNN
> 
> 
> Compliments about weight loss are often well-meaning but can have negative consequences. Here's why they're problematic, and what to say instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


The leftist mind is not very rationale. 

More and more you see that thought pattern and you have to wonder.

Quite frankly...most of this is driven by a small but vocal minority. For yrs most people went along. More and more people are waking up as to what is going on.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I thought you did nuance. He calls people names and accuses them of racism and misogyny when they disagree with him. I am simply identifying behavior with an appropriate albeit profane moniker. No one who ignores him was included. It’s well earned and not his style.


"Circle jerks" is inherently a group insult.  It's not really a term that can be defined in isolation.

If you only meant to target one person, a different perjorative would be more appropriate.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> My kids go by the school rules.  It's not my choice, or theirs.


What are their school's rules regarding wearing masks?


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> What are their school's rules regarding wearing masks?


Required when indoors.  Eat lunch outside.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> "Circle jerks" is inherently a group insult.  It's not really a term that can be defined in isolation.
> 
> If you only meant to target one person, a different perjorative would be more appropriate.


I was only referencing Husker - who insults people regularly and you don't ignore - and GG. Husker came back for seconds and that led to my second comment. I can see from the context where you might have thought I was referencing you in the first comment. That was not my intent.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I was only referencing Husker - who insults people regularly and you don't ignore - and GG. Husker came back for seconds and that led to my second comment. I can see from the context where you might have thought I was referencing you in the first comment. That was not my intent.


Well you have been one of the most respectful people to people you disagree with 

And that quite frankly is how it should be.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> "Circle jerks" is inherently a group insult.  It's not really a term that can be defined in isolation.
> 
> If you only meant to target one person, a different perjorative would be more appropriate.


Not intended in isolation, not sure how an attention to detailer missed - "No one who ignores him was included."

"Circle jerk" is accurate for the group @GoldenShower, @Fister Du, and @eatspole.....don't worry, I believe you're in the clear.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Required when indoors.  Eat lunch outside.


Curious, what School District? Thought all CA schools dropped mask requirements.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MicPaPa said:


> Not intended in isolation, not sure how an attention to detailer missed - "No one who ignores him was included."
> 
> "Circle jerk" is accurate for the group @GoldenShower, @Fister Du, and @eatspole.....don't worry, I believe you're in the clear.


Yes, this was my intent. When I went back and read my original comments, I could easily see how @dad4 could have thought I was including him. My fault for the ambiguity.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Well you have been one of the* most respectful people* to people you disagree with
> 
> And that quite frankly is how it should be.


100%.  I love K & S for being authentic and fair.  I also love you Hound.  Hound, you have been fair as well and I appreciate that.  Both of you are amazing Papas to your dd


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, this was my intent. When I went back and read my original comments, I could easily see how @dad4 could have thought I was including him. My fault for the ambiguity.


Dad dont want anything to do with that circle of men.....


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This guy roasted Hollywood right b4 the first wave of Rona hit our shores in Jan 2020.  Hanks was the first "actor" to come down with Rona.  He just happen to be in Australia, go figure.


----------



## crush

*When They Were Young


Lieutenant Steve Bannon*


*President Obama*
​


----------



## crush

*Fauci *crushed* for saying it's 'disturbing' that a U.S. court can overrule the CDC*
*'Fauci may want to take a little time and review the Constitution and the case law.'*

During the segment on the streaming show "Red & Blue," CBS anchor Robert Costa asked Fauci, "Do you personally agree or disagree with her interpretation of public health law?" 

Fauci responded, "Well, I clearly disagree, I mean those types of things should be decided as a public health issue by the public health organizations, in this case the CDC. This is a public health matter, not a judicial matter."

"So, obviously the CDC will abide by the order of the court because it’s a legal obligation," he continued. "But one of the problems that we have there is that the principle of a court overruling a public health judgment by a qualified organization like the CDC is disturbing in the precedent in might send," Fauci concluded.

*Quack!!!

*


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> *When They Were Young
> 
> 
> Lieutenant Steve Bannon*
> View attachment 13340
> 
> *President Obama*
> View attachment 13341​


And now.  It really makes one question why anyone should respect a person simply because they served in the military. 

.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> And now.  It really makes one question why anyone should respect a person simply because they served in the military.
> 
> .View attachment 13344View attachment 13345


But the LORD said to Golden Gate, “Do not consider his appearance ((gained a few pounds)) or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things EOTL looks at.  GG and other Elitists look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”  

TGIF buddy ol pal.  Let's try and have some good debate without attacking dad's dd and those you fired because they didn;t take the jab.  It hurts my heart but that is your heart on the inside of your soul.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> They are afraid of everything. They lash out at things that they fear. They claim to be all about “freedom” yet constantly whine about how others live. The funny part is they think no one notices how weak and frail they come off as.


link and example please.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> But the LORD said to Golden Gate, “Do not consider his appearance ((gained a few pounds)) or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things EOTL looks at.  GG and other Elitists look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
> 
> TGIF buddy ol pal.  Let's try and have some good debate without attacking dad's dd and those you fired because they didn;t take the jab.  It hurts my heart but that is your heart on the inside of your soul.


The Lord murdered Uzzah because he tried to keep the Ark of the covenant from falling over after his ox stumbled.  The Lord told slaves to get their shit together and do what they're told no matter how perverse their owners.  The Lord told people that the owners of sex slaves should be allowed to get their money back if the little girls didn't perform to their satisfaction.  If you want to debate the Bible, how 'bout:

"If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat."

"But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever".

"Nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Remember that most of us ignore Golden Gate.


Separately, I will note that you have recently referenced and supported one of GG's posts. That's not the definition of ignoring that I grew up with but as we have seen, definitions are changing. Maybe now it means "to give no attention unless I agree".


----------



## GoldenGate

kickingandscreaming said:


> Self-aware much? “Your side” has someone celebrating firing someone. I mean, that poster is pretty obviously a broken person and making shit up but he is from “your side”. Best to stick with dealing with individuals.
> 
> From my perspective it’s not the difference of opinion that is bothering those who you refer to, it’s that someone else’s opinion/perspective is being forced upon them - by compulsive lying hypocrites no less (not you, our “leaders”).


I apologize for not providing a trigger warning before impeding on the anti-vax/mask safe space that you and your fellow snowflakes are looking for at this youth soccer forum.

Technically, I was celebrating unloading a terrible, insubordinate employee who lacked even the slightest amount of respect or concern for the well-being of her co-workers and their families.  There are people in workplaces who are over 60 and/or who have real medical conditions that put them in real danger if they get Covid-19.  There are people in the workplace who live with family members who can't get vaccinated for various reasons.  Selfish, whiny Karens who don't care about their coworkers or their families can go f**k themselves, and they can do it without unemployment benefits.  Like many selfish idiots before her, she gets to do what all of you have demanded that older people and those with serious health conditions do for the last two years, which is stay home.  She can home school her kids because free public schools have been so mean to her and there is no gift horse too big for her and her fellow selfish clowns to look in the mouth.  And, of course, home school is her only option because she can't afford the private anti-vax/mask ones because she's broke, unemployed and ineligible for unemployment.  If she thought she could reap the benefits of society without accepting any of the responsibilities, she thought wrong.

What is it with people like you and your "me, me, me, it's all about me I don't care if my co-workers with cancer or who are over 70 die" mindset?  If you don't want to wear a mask or get vaccinated either, great, do it somewhere else.


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> I apologize for not providing a trigger warning before impeding on the anti-vax/mask safe space that you and your fellow snowflakes are looking for at this youth soccer forum.
> 
> Technically, I was celebrating unloading a terrible, insubordinate employee who lacked even the slightest amount of respect or concern for the well-being of her co-workers and their families.  There are people in workplaces who are over 60 and/or who have real medical conditions that put them in real danger if they get Covid-19.  There are people in the workplace who live with family members who can't get vaccinated for various reasons.  Selfish, whiny Karens who don't care about their coworkers or their families can go f**k themselves, and they can do it without unemployment benefits.  Like many selfish idiots before her, she gets to do what all of you have demanded that older people and those with serious health conditions do for the last two years, which is stay home.  She can home school her kids because free public schools have been so mean to her and there is no gift horse too big for her and her fellow selfish clowns to look in the mouth.  And, of course, home school is her only option because she can't afford the private anti-vax/mask ones because she's broke, unemployed and ineligible for unemployment.  If she thought she could reap the benefits of society without accepting any of the responsibilities, she thought wrong.
> 
> What is it with people like you and your "me, me, me, it's all about me I don't care if my co-workers with cancer or who are over 70 die" mindset?  If you don't want to wear a mask or get vaccinated either, great, do it somewhere else.


such a hater.  Maybe if you understood science and came back from 2020 you'd be less angry.  In your mind masks work.  And that's fine if it augments your coping skills.  It's unfortunate there isn't an anti-clown vaccine, given on a regular schedule, much like ones given for allergies.  

When was the last time you flew?  simple question..


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> "If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat."
> 
> "But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever".


Did you and Espola go to church camp together as youths?  Satan knows the scriptures better than any of us but he used tricks and deceit. He tried to get Yeshua but failed.  Interesting choice of "cherry picking scriptures" but taking them out of context for todqy's man.  Btw, I work every day taking care of my wife, my dd and ds.  I am also providing care for my wife's parents, who both are in the middle stage of Alzheimer's.  Soon that will be a full time "job" because my wife and I love them both. My faith says to honor your parents before almighty Dollar. 90% of the world takes care of their parents.  We in America are too busy so we find "A Place For Mom" or "My Angel" to care for them.  When did you join Club 33?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> *When They Were Young
> 
> 
> Lieutenant Steve Bannon*
> View attachment 13340
> 
> *President Obama*
> View attachment 13341​


Yeah look at them now. Bannon looks a wreck . . . a homeless, con man POS and Barrack is all grown up and admired worldwide. The jealousy towards Barrack and his entire family from you slugs certainly reveals your scumbag nature.


----------



## MicPaPa

Shoot the messenger and ignore the message in 3..2..1









						Cardiologist Says 30 Percent of Vaccinated Pilots Would Fail Health Screenings Due to Vaccine Injuries › American Greatness
					

Joshua Yoder, an airline pilot and co-founder of the U.S. Freedom Flyers said during an interview Wednesday that a cardiologist told him that if the airlines were conducting certain health screenings…




					amgreatness.com


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah look at them now. Bannon looks a wreck . . . a homeless, con man POS and *Barrack is all grown up and admired worldwide.* The jealousy towards Barrack and his entire family from you slugs certainly reveals your scumbag nature.


Well, spotify isn't a big fan.   

Interesting tolerant speech coming out of you.  Disagreement over policy = being a scumbag?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah look at them now. Bannon looks a wreck . . . a homeless, con man POS and Barrack is all grown up and admired worldwide. The jealousy towards Barrack and his entire family from you slugs certainly reveals your scumbag nature.


I have some classic pics of myself that make me cringe a little from before I quit eating meat.  I looked more like a finder binder but still a wreck.  Not as fat as Steve but I was on my way.  Mike Pompero lost a lot of weight after his wreck.  Spodify kicked BO out and Bannon is becoming like Joe Rogan.  Were nut slugs.  We are human beings.  So mean today


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah look at them now. Bannon looks a wreck . . . a homeless, con man POS and Barrack is all grown up and admired worldwide. The jealousy towards Barrack and his entire family from you slugs certainly reveals your scumbag nature.


I suppose being jeolous of Obama's post presidency success would be natural.  He's certainly polished, no signs of familial drama, devoted husband and father.  He's taken advantage of his position in his party and has cashed in..good on him.

now, on the other hand, sleepy Joe is another animal altogether.  Incoherent in daily life as well as policy.  Always prone to gaffes, which at first were considered cute, not so much now.

Since this thread is supposed to be about vaccines, he's seemingly unable to understand how to effectively garner support for vaccination and to devise policy that helps the economy and the health of the american people.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah look at them now. Bannon looks a wreck . . . a homeless, con man POS and Barrack is all grown up and admired worldwide. The jealousy towards Barrack and his entire family from you slugs certainly reveals your scumbag nature.


WHOA! easy now Fister, no need to get your knickers in a wad.....your clown crew should be by at any time to give you a chin scratch and a reach-a-round.


----------



## crush

*Hillary Clinton ripped over tweet urging EU to police ‘disinformation’ and ‘extremism’ online*
*'Translated: Restrict the First Amendment so that Democrats can control the narrative without challenge.' *((Fire your employees or refuse access to school if they refuse the jabs+booster.  Social Credit Score is here and it starts with obeying the force jabs)).  

Hillary tweeted, "For too long, tech platforms have amplified disinformation and extremism with no accountability. The EU is poised to do something about it."
"I urge our transatlantic allies to push the Digital Services Act across the finish line and bolster global democracy before it's too late," she added, speaking about a new law proposed by the European Union which will force Big Tech companies to better police illegal content posted online.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Separately, I will note that you have recently referenced and supported one of GG's posts. That's not the definition of ignoring that I grew up with but as we have seen, definitions are changing. Maybe now it means "to give no attention unless I agree".





MicPaPa said:


> WHOA! easy now Fister, no need to get your knickers in a wad.....your clown crew should be by at any time to give you a chin scratch and a reach-a-round.



Note Mic Pa Pa’s repeated sexualized slurs against Husker Du.  Golden Gate isn‘t the only one here with poor manners.


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> Note Mic Pa Pa’s repeated sexualized slurs against Husker Du.  Golden Gate isn‘t the only one here with poor manners.


Ahhh, poor @Fister Du

In the absence of humor, anger thrives.....lighten up and give it a try @dad4skin


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Note Mic Pa Pa’s repeated sexualized slurs against Husker Du.  Golden Gate isn‘t the only one here with poor manners.


I've had him on ignore for so long that I had forgotten why.  Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I've had him on ignore for so long that I had forgotten why.  Thanks for the reminder.


Husker Du, can you ask Espola how many he now has on ignore?  He said I was the only one on "super" ignore and I want to know if that holds true still, thanks.  Also, thanks btw for not ignoring me and taking them on the chin


----------



## MicPaPa

I'll be interested to see how the pearl clutchers respond to the lefties latest debauchery - grooming of kids.

Get used to it, coming to a school near you.

.....this freak is pushing toddlers no less.

"



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517203207356928000


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> I've had him on ignore for so long that I had forgotten why.  Thanks for the reminder.


Says the @GoldenShower fanboy - rich.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Husker Du, can you ask Espola how many he now has on ignore?  He said I was the only one on "super" ignore and I want to know if that holds true still, thanks.  Also, thanks btw for not ignoring me and taking them on the chin


When all you get from a poster is anger and insults what’s the point, right? Some posters get upset and never return to having conversations or debate. They just simply can’t get over themselves. So on ignore they go.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Husker Du, can you ask Espola how many he now has on ignore?  He said I was the only one on "super" ignore and I want to know if that holds true still, thanks.  Also, thanks btw for not ignoring me and taking them on the chin


I just counted and I have 36 on ignore. Most are spammers, I have taken all but a few regulars off of ignore . . . and will probably put a few back on ignore as they are just a waste of time.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I just counted and I have 36 on ignore. Most are spammers, I have taken all but a few regulars off of ignore . . . and will probably put a few back on ignore as they are just a waste of time.


Did you ask Espola why he has me on ignore?  Why ignore anyone?  I have no one on ignore btw.  I just skip over the writings of avatars I don't like.  If I like a take, I hit the "like" button.  If a take sucks, I say nothing or click "angry."  If I laugh, I click "haha."  You make me laugh and you get under my skin.


----------



## crush

This is sad news.  Pressure is real on young women to perform and achieve greatness 









						Former Oak Park High standout runner Sarah Shulze dies at age 21
					

A standout runner and top-notch student at Oak Park High and the University of Wisconsin, Sarah Shulze was energetic, ambitious and committed.



					www.vcstar.com
				




Shulze was named The Star's Runner of the Year for 2018. She, in turn, earned a scholarship to the University of Wisconsin.

Now that bright light has been extinguished, at least in life. Her family has announced that the 21-year-old Shulze died on April 13 in Wisconsin. They revealed, in a website posting, that their daughter "took her own life."

*"Balancing athletics, academics and the demands of every day life overwhelmed her in a single, desperate moment," the posting said.*

She is survived by her parents, Brigitte and Scott, and sisters Abbey and Ella.

"She was surrounded by her loving family," the tribute website said.

It is the family's hope that their daughter's suicide helps awaken others to the fragility of mental health.


----------



## Grace T.

Somebody has been reading this forum....a summary of every argument ever raised by dad4, me and the rest of you (trolls included).....


All kidding aside, one of the best summations I've read.









						Our Failed COVID Response
					

If, God forbid, we face another pandemic, we cannot use our COVID strategy as the baseline.




					thedispatch.com


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Somebody has been reading this forum....a summary of every argument ever raised by dad4, me and the rest of you (trolls included).....
> 
> 
> All kidding aside, one of the best summations I've read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Failed COVID Response
> 
> 
> If, God forbid, we face another pandemic, we cannot use our COVID strategy as the baseline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thedispatch.com


What I learned the most the last two years is how real fear is.  The fear of death and what happens after you die cause even more fear from the virus because no one wants to die from a virus that some say came from a King Corbra and some say that is BS.  Regardless what the ingredients is, it cause fear of those who took the jab in the first place.  If you think about it, no one really knows and because of the unknown, fear leads us all.  Once your full of fear, anger takes over the little human that is afraid.  If we were all told the TRUTH why we are all here in the first place and that death is just a part of the game of life and death and then this is what happens when you die, then we won;t be afraid of death and the virus would just be laughed off.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> They are afraid of everything. They lash out at things that they fear. They claim to be all about “freedom” yet constantly whine about how others live. The funny part is they think no one notices how weak and frail they come off as.


36 posters on ignore....
You have made it very clear why 
you are the thin skinned Gallina.


----------



## MicPaPa

thirteenknots said:


> 36 posters on ignore....
> You have made it very clear why
> you are the thin skinned Gallina.


They always accuse others of what they themselves are, nothing new - that's how the left rolls.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Somebody has been reading this forum....a summary of every argument ever raised by dad4, me and the rest of you (trolls included).....
> 
> 
> All kidding aside, one of the best summations I've read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Failed COVID Response
> 
> 
> If, God forbid, we face another pandemic, we cannot use our COVID strategy as the baseline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thedispatch.com


You honestly can't see the slant in the article?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> You honestly can't see the slant in the article?


Again, what was that CA School District still requiring masks?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You honestly can't see the slant in the article?


It was posted by Grace.  What did you expect?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Note Mic Pa Pa’s repeated sexualized slurs against Husker Du.  Golden Gate isn‘t the only one here with poor manners.


I have no idea how quoting my post has anything to do with what you posted. Did you inadvertently include it?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Somebody has been reading this forum....a summary of every argument ever raised by dad4, me and the rest of you (trolls included).....
> 
> 
> All kidding aside, one of the best summations I've read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Failed COVID Response
> 
> 
> If, God forbid, we face another pandemic, we cannot use our COVID strategy as the baseline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thedispatch.com


These things stood out to me.

This definitely rings true.

——

In May 2020, Scott Gottlieb appeared on CBS News’ _Face the Nation_. “While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as we expected … We expected to see more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point and we’re just not seeing that.” 
In May 2020, Scott Gottlieb appeared on CBS News’ _Face the Nation_. “While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as we expected … We expected to see more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point and we’re just not seeing that.” 

If an approach—untested, and extraordinarily disruptive and expensive—is not meeting expectations, is that not a good time to question the assumptions behind those expectations? 

_Nah._

——

This is specifically for @dad4 

——

The faith in COVID policies was so entrenched, lack of compliance was the only conceivable explanation for our failure to crush the virus. A constant refrain on Twitter was, “_The only reason X doesn’t work is because people won’t [thing they won’t do].”_

That’s not true, as it happens, but even if it were, only two words in that sentence matter: “doesn’t work.” Those tweets might as well have said _“X is the wrong intervention.”_ Why? Because people won’t do it. It really is that simple.  

A basic principle of public health is that interventions must work in our world, as it is, with the peopled who live in it. If people are rotten and selfish, as many seem to believe, then the approach must be designed to work in our rotten and selfish world. No points for being “right” on paper (or Twitter, or cable news).  

*——*

The biggest failures

——

To borrow from photography, public policy generally—and public health specifically—requires a wide-angle lens. Policymakers must weigh many competing societal needs, and public health officials must consider the broad spectrum of human wellness and flourishing.

…

Straightforward, honest, transparent communication is critical, because “honesty and accuracy build public trust, which is essential for the success of most public health efforts. … Being honest and accurate in communications with the public also demonstrates respect for the individuals and communities that public health serves.”

Blaming, shaming and point scoring are great for pushing political outrage buttons, but they’re alienating in public health practice, where you deal with real people, not caricatures on Twitter. Effective public health prioritizes “respect for the dignity and capability of individuals, not on strategies of stigmatization or on appeals to motivations of fear, disgust, and shame.”

As to the use of fear to motivate behavior, the APHA suggests communicating about risk “in a variety of ways (e.g., absolute vs. relative) to avoid overemphasizing or underemphasizing potential harm.”


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> These things stood out to me.
> 
> This definitely rings true.
> 
> ——
> 
> In May 2020, Scott Gottlieb appeared on CBS News’ _Face the Nation_. “While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as we expected … We expected to see more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point and we’re just not seeing that.”
> In May 2020, Scott Gottlieb appeared on CBS News’ _Face the Nation_. “While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as we expected … We expected to see more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point and we’re just not seeing that.”
> 
> If an approach—untested, and extraordinarily disruptive and expensive—is not meeting expectations, is that not a good time to question the assumptions behind those expectations?
> 
> _Nah._
> 
> ——
> 
> This is specifically for @dad4
> 
> ——
> 
> The faith in COVID policies was so entrenched, lack of compliance was the only conceivable explanation for our failure to crush the virus. A constant refrain on Twitter was, “_The only reason X doesn’t work is because people won’t [thing they won’t do].”_
> 
> That’s not true, as it happens, but even if it were, only two words in that sentence matter: “doesn’t work.” Those tweets might as well have said _“X is the wrong intervention.”_ Why? Because people won’t do it. It really is that simple.
> 
> A basic principle of public health is that interventions must work in our world, as it is, with the peopled who live in it. If people are rotten and selfish, as many seem to believe, then the approach must be designed to work in our rotten and selfish world. No points for being “right” on paper (or Twitter, or cable news).
> 
> *——*
> 
> The biggest failures
> 
> ——
> 
> To borrow from photography, public policy generally—and public health specifically—requires a wide-angle lens. Policymakers must weigh many competing societal needs, and public health officials must consider the broad spectrum of human wellness and flourishing.
> 
> …
> 
> Straightforward, honest, transparent communication is critical, because “honesty and accuracy build public trust, which is essential for the success of most public health efforts. … Being honest and accurate in communications with the public also demonstrates respect for the individuals and communities that public health serves.”
> 
> Blaming, shaming and point scoring are great for pushing political outrage buttons, but they’re alienating in public health practice, where you deal with real people, not caricatures on Twitter. Effective public health prioritizes “respect for the dignity and capability of individuals, not on strategies of stigmatization or on appeals to motivations of fear, disgust, and shame.”
> 
> As to the use of fear to motivate behavior, the APHA suggests communicating about risk “in a variety of ways (e.g., absolute vs. relative) to avoid overemphasizing or underemphasizing potential harm.”


There is some truth to the point that an intervention which fails because of inaction, still fails.

It becomes cyclical when the person making the argument is one of the ones who refused to act in the first place.  It’s kind of like saying “tooth brushes don’t work because I never took mine out of the box.”.   It’s partly true, but it is mostly an abdication of personal responsibility.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> There is some truth to the point that an intervention which fails because of inaction, still fails.


There is “some” truth? What else is there besides “truth”? If something “fails” it “fails”. That’s 100% truth.




dad4 said:


> It becomes cyclical when the person making the argument is one of the ones who refused to act in the first place.  It’s kind of like saying “tooth brushes don’t work because I never took mine out of the box.”.   It’s partly true, but it is mostly an abdication of personal responsibility.


According to Wikipedia, Policy is a deliberate system of guidelines to guide decisions and achieve rational outcomes. What you are describing is a failed policy. You are blaming it on people for their (lack of) actions. This is why @Grace T. refers to you as a preacher.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> There is “some” truth? What else is there besides “truth”? If something “fails” it “fails”. That’s 100% truth.
> 
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia, Policy is a deliberate system of guidelines to guide decisions and achieve rational outcomes. What you are describing is a failed policy. You are blaming it on people for their (lack of) actions. This is why @Grace T. refers to you as a preacher.


Any stubborn 5-year-old can say "That's not going to work because I'm not going to do it".

At some point, everyone grows up (usually).


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Any stubborn 5-year-old can say "That's not going to work because I'm not going to do it".
> 
> At some point, everyone grows up (usually).


Any stubborn old man can say, “Mask children because I’m afraid even though the children aren’t at risk.”

At some point, they die a coward (always).


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Any stubborn old man can say, “Mask children because I’m afraid even though the children aren’t at risk.”
> 
> At some point, they die a coward (always).


What a lovely person you are!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What a lovely person you are!


We have a few in here. Some feel being rude and selfish are admirable virtues.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*CNN Covid 19 News Headline:  Flu drops out of top 10 causes of death and can;t be found; Covid holds steady at #3 cause of death.*

More than 415,000 people died from ((with)) Covid-19 in 2021, while about 605,000 people died from cancer and about 693,000 people died from heart disease, according to the CDC data. Influenza dropped out of the top 10 causes of death in 2021, while suicide rose to the tenth leading cause of death overall.  Covid-19 death rates remained highest among those ages 85 ((go figure)) and older in 2021.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> We have a few in here. Some feel being rude and selfish are admirable virtues.


I blame too much exposure to reality TV where being an insufferable asshole has been shown to be a pathway to wealth and fame.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> We have a few in here. Some feel being rude and selfish are admirable virtues.


...you will fail to see the irony in this, no need to waste any more time.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> I blame too much exposure to reality TV where being an insufferable asshole has been shown to be a pathway to wealth and fame.


...when faced with the mirror of Truth, meaningless retorts generally ensue.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> You honestly can't see the slant in the article?


...interesting take...that is all you got from it?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> Any stubborn old man can say, “Mask children because I’m afraid even though the children aren’t at risk.”
> 
> At some point, they die a coward (always).


Wow.  I'm surprised actually.  Did you get to watch brave people die of Covid?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> There is some truth to the point that an intervention which fails because of inaction, still fails.
> 
> It becomes cyclical when the person making the argument is one of the ones who refused to act in the first place.  It’s kind of like saying “tooth brushes don’t work because I never took mine out of the box.”.   It’s partly true, but it is mostly an abdication of personal responsibility.


I maintain that discussing policy in this forum is simply equivalent to discussing politics, if that is what we can even call it anymore.  But I agree there is a crucial issue in rational assessment of what worked and what didn't.  Because the probability of eruptive pandemics in the coming decades is now higher than it was.  This is not going to be a one off. So if you find a policy exegesis of interest, over the next several years there will be plenty of material.  A lot of it (unlike what was posted earlier) will be worth at least a scan.  An example is linked below.  But I remain skeptical that it will matter much in the end unfortunately.  



			https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-06357-4


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I maintain that discussing policy in this forum is simply equivalent to discussing politics, if that is what we can even call it anymore.  But I agree there is a crucial issue in rational assessment of what worked and what didn't.  Because the probability of eruptive pandemics in the coming decades is now higher than it was.  This is not going to be a one off. So if you find a policy exegesis of interest, over the next several years there will be plenty of material.  A lot of it (unlike what was posted earlier) will be worth at least a scan.  An example is linked below.  But I remain skeptical that it will matter much in the end unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-06357-4


Like in the movie Don’t Look Up we will eventually dumb ourselves to death. Pandemic, global warming, plastics, junk food, man made carcinogens or an asteroid some choose to ignore.


----------



## crush

*Elon is trolling Gates big time.  It looks the world is controlled by these two fellas.  Life comes down to choices and you can only pick one side, Bill or Elon.  Who do you follow? We all know what Bill has accomplished and what he is for and Elon has been straight up about free speech and smoking weed.  *


----------



## crush

LA is getting bad folks.  Stealing to eat is way over 100%.  Many of the prisoners that were released had no home.  Also, many of these homeless folks were not homeless before the Rona.  Think about it you guys.  Life is great and then all of sudden you lose your job because.  You lose your place to live and now you live in car.  You get depressed and try some crack or heroine to take the mental pain a way and then you lose your car. Maybe try some booze as well because you feel like shit and you have no one to help you.  Free crack pipes and all the Fentanyl you want.  105,000 people died in last 12 months from that poison btw.  56% spike in homeless deaths from last year.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> View attachment 13363


I do appreciate that the drawings you are using originated from extreme racist memes from the dark web that were mainstreamed for the unaware. Do you?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I do appreciate that the drawings you are using originated from extreme racist memes from the dark web that were mainstreamed for the unaware. Do you?


I am aware we live in a dark and light spirit realm in each of us and all have the right to be free to express our darkest side ((within reason and within the rule of law)) and our light side as who we truly are.  They come together as a package for each human   I liked the meme and it made a lot of sense in my brain.  BTW, the www is one big dark web and full of deep evil.  It has to be wiped clean and then replaced with something new.  This is one of the reasons Space Force was put in place.  Be patient and you will see.  After 9/11 and all the wars before the war in Ukraine, most of my Lib pals were anti war, anti 1% rich, anti big pharma, hate all the Bushes, hate the Mav and hate all war.  t was the only one against those wars and the only President not to be in a war.  t was a big fat no and he was right.  I was lied to by the liars on Tel A Vision, Sean, Fox and their friends.  We were all lied to Husker.  I was born to fight in wars and die in them.  If their are past lives for all of us Husker, I bet I fought in all the wars.  I remember playing war games as a kid like Cowboys vs Indians, USA vs Japan, USA vs Germany.  I played capture the flag and so many other war games.  It's so in my blood.  My life coach and my wife have both said that I came this time to rest and play.  I tried to go in the Marines at 18 but the Creator and Mother Earth blocked it from happening back in 85'.  It was divine how it was blocked, just like how I was born and not killed.  In fact, how I was able to be born is insane and you wouldn;t believe me if I told you.  Blood line was, is and will be very important in the future success ((abundance)) of the human race. We will all find out the truth of why were here in the first place and what our role will be in the future.  Trust me, Bill Gates and Klause will not be in charge of the planet and neither will Elon.  The Christ Consciousness will reign supreme for 1000 years.  The only other option for the human race will be to live as an Anti-Christ.  I am anti-Vax and some are anti-Christ.  This truth will blow the socks off of every atheist and agnostic left on the earth.  I can't wait to see the look on their faces.  It will be amazing and beautiful and I mean that.  I don't want no more war and fighting, only peace, fairness, honesty and freedom to be whatever you want to be.  I want us all to get a long and allow each human to be truly free and not a slave anymore.  It's going to happen I believe.  Happy week after Easter Husker and thanks for engaging me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> I am aware we live in a dark and light spirit realm in each of us and all have the right to be free to express our darkest side ((within reason and within the rule of law)) and our light side as who we truly are.  They come together as a package for each human   I liked the meme and it made a lot of sense in my brain.  BTW, the www is one big dark web and full of deep evil.  It has to be wiped clean and then replaced with something new.  This is one of the reasons Space Force was put in place.  Be patient and you will see.  After 9/11 and all the wars before the war in Ukraine, most of my Lib pals were anti war, anti 1% rich, anti big pharma, hate all the Bushes, hate the Mav and hate all war.  t was the only one against those wars and the only President not to be in a war.  t was a big fat no and he was right.  I was lied to by the liars on Tel A Vision, Sean, Fox and their friends.  We were all lied to Husker.  I was born to fight in wars and die in them.  If their are past lives for all of us Husker, I bet I fought in all the wars.  I remember playing war games as a kid like Cowboys vs Indians, USA vs Japan, USA vs Germany.  I played capture the flag and so many other war games.  It's so in my blood.  My life coach and my wife have both said that I came this time to rest and play.  I tried to go in the Marines at 18 but the Creator and Mother Earth blocked it from happening back in 85'.  It was divine how it was blocked, just like how I was born and not killed.  In fact, how I was able to be born is insane and you wouldn;t believe me if I told you.  Blood line was, is and will be very important in the future success ((abundance)) of the human race. We will all find out the truth of why were here in the first place and what our role will be in the future.  Trust me, Bill Gates and Klause will not be in charge of the planet and neither will Elon.  The Christ Consciousness will reign supreme for 1000 years.  The only other option for the human race will be to live as an Anti-Christ.  I am anti-Vax and some are anti-Christ.  This truth will blow the socks off of every atheist and agnostic left on the earth.  I can't wait to see the look on their faces.  It will be amazing and beautiful and I mean that.  I don't want no more war and fighting, only peace, fairness, honesty and freedom to be whatever you want to be.  I want us all to get a long and allow each human to be truly free and not a slave anymore.  It's going to happen I believe.  Happy week after Easter Husker and thanks for engaging me.


You are being pushed in different directions by dark forces. Come out into the light. You are on a one way path to a horrible existence. The world is a beautiful place and still here when you want to join it. Do things on your own, lose the need for guidance. You are in the wrong place. Your head is the wrong space.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are being pushed in different directions by dark forces. Come out into the light. You are on a one way path to a horrible existence. The world is a beautiful place and still here when you want to join it. Do things on your own, lose the need for guidance. You are in the wrong place. Your head is the wrong space.


Thanks for the heads up.  Did you ask Espola?  He won;t talk to me.  I feel hurt by him.  I looked up to him as a father figure and a sage in club soccer.  Can you imagine asking your father some questions and he gets so mad he ignores you forever?  That's how I feel sometimes.  I poured my heart out on here the last 4 years looking for help.  He helped me when I first came and was in my corner at times.  I wrote something that pissed him off and he hasn't been the same since.  Plus, I told him one man can make a difference and he told me I was full of poop.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Thanks for the heads up.  Did you ask Espola?  He won;t talk to me.  I feel hurt by him.  I looked up to him as a father figure and a sage in club soccer.  Can you imagine asking your father some questions and he gets so mad he ignores you forever?  That's how I feel sometimes.  I poured my heart out on here the last 4 years looking for help.  He helped me when I first came and was in my corner at times.  I wrote something that pissed him off and he hasn't been the same since.  Plus, I told him one man can make a difference and he told me I was full of poop.


Quit being so dependent on others, THAT will help you more than anything.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Quit being so dependent on others, THAT will help you more than anything.


Interesting that you would say that.  You sound harsh but I could be reading into your words wrong.  I was hoping we could all depend on each other as a country and help those who are in need and help those who are sick and lame and blind.  The homeless need our help.  The elderly need our help.  The poor need our help.  What are you and Espola doing to help?  The kids really need our help and some can't depend on themselves.  I was a born into foster care and was dependent on foster parents for 18 years.  After that, no more help and I had to help myself.  No parents or grand parents to help me with college, buying a car and finding a place to live.  I went to churches because I was all alone and needed a friend and I see that now.  I got married and had kids so I wouldn't be all alone.  They all depend on me to be a man, husband and father, imagine that.  I love to help them.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

You will see more and more studies showing the same thing.









						The verdict on lockdowns: high costs, minimal benefits
					

What were the benefits and costs of the COVID-19 restrictions implemented over the last two years? It’s a good time to ask that question, especially now that the masks are coming off and the lockdowns are canceled.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You will see more and more studies showing the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The verdict on lockdowns: high costs, minimal benefits
> 
> 
> What were the benefits and costs of the COVID-19 restrictions implemented over the last two years? It’s a good time to ask that question, especially now that the masks are coming off and the lockdowns are canceled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


Study?

Your link is to an opinion piece by a “Senior Political Analyst” at a conservative newspaper, requoting the same flawed NBER analysis we discussed last week.  You know, the one that definitively proved that New York has more covid problems than Montana.

What’s next, you post a link to a Tucker Carlson video and tell us it is a statistical meta-analysis?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Study?
> 
> Your link is to an opinion piece by a “Senior Political Analyst” at a conservative newspaper, requoting the same flawed NBER analysis we discussed last week.  You know, the one that definitively proved that New York has more covid problems than Montana.
> 
> What’s next, you post a link to a Tucker Carlson video and tell us it is a statistical meta-analysis?


You will see more and more showing lockdowns didn't help. 

You know what you are unlikely to see? Any studies showing lockdowns were beneficial in terms of stopping the spread, minimizing economic damage, providing good educational outcomes, etc.

As time goes on, more and more will come to the conclusion what the gov did was a massive mistake.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You honestly can't see the slant in the article?


You mean towards honesty....that our side was mostly right (particularly when it came to children) and yours was wrong?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You mean towards honesty....that our side was mostly right (particularly when it came to children) and yours was wrong?


I notice you don’t want to talk about the elderly.

Happy to have a real discussion about the overall balance.  

Not interested in having that discussion in some fantasyland where every single negative effect of covid was “baked in”.


----------



## Desert Hound

The Mask Studies You Should Know ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

As far as evidence for masking, there have been many very bad “studies” that offer no control group or comparison group that try to “prove” masks work




					brownstone.org


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I notice you don’t want to talk about the elderly.
> 
> Happy to have a real discussion about the overall balance.
> 
> Not interested in having that discussion in some fantasyland where every single negative effect of covid was “baked in”.


I don't need to.  The article already did that.  As I said, it's a very good a complete summary that basically goes through everything we already discussed on these forums (specifically as to this point, that we don't ask kids to sacrifice for adults and that's not how society is organized) and don't need to be beat any further considering where we are now.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> View attachment 13365


Is that what’s important? Seems that way. You would see democracy abolished and America changed far away from the founders intent, just to see people you don’t agree with upset. That is a sad state of affairs. Seems you are about as a big a hypocrite as can be.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is that what’s important? Seems that way. You would see democracy abolished and America changed far away from the founders intent, just to see people you don’t agree with upset. That is a sad state of affairs. Seems you are about as a big a hypocrite as can be.


Freedom of Speech brah


----------



## what-happened

crush said:


> Freedom of Speech brah


went right over his head..


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I don't need to.  The article already did that.  As I said, it's a very good a complete summary that basically goes through everything we already discussed on these forums (specifically as to this point, that we don't ask kids to sacrifice for adults and that's not how society is organized) and don't need to be beat any further considering where we are now.


Sure.  And the article told you exactly what you want to hear, so it must be right.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> went right over his head..


I know.  Watch what happens next what-happened


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> Freedom of Speech brah


No problem with that. Now kindly address my question. You claim to want everyone to work together then you post neener-neener memes? I guess I don’t see how the two can coexist in your brain. “Hey let’s work together.  Look! I tagged your car! Lol!” Doesn’t make sense. Are you bi-polar or have multiple personalities? Or are you just trying to be a dick to please the peanut gallery?


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> No problem with that. Now kindly address my question. You claim to want everyone to work together then you post neener-neener memes? I guess I don’t see how the two can coexist in your brain. “Hey let’s work together.  Look! I tagged your car! Lol!” Doesn’t make sense. Are you bi-polar or have multiple personalities? Or are you just trying to be a dick to please the peanut gallery?


Equating posting memes on the internet and vandalizing a car?
Another post from the peanut gallery...


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> No problem with that. Now kindly address my question. You claim to want everyone to work together then you post neener-neener memes? I guess I don’t see how the two can coexist in your brain. “Hey let’s work together.  Look! I tagged your car! Lol!” Doesn’t make sense. Are you bi-polar or have multiple personalities? Or are you just trying to be a dick to please the peanut gallery?


I am a comic at heart Husker and always use some humor and satire to poke and play with the bears on both sides.  I want freedom of speech and fairness for all.  I have many aspects to my personality and I share them with all.  New Wave Dave ring a bell?  I share my heart and deepest desires, my dreams, my visions and ideas with you and others in the peanut gallery.  I am authentic, remember that.  I was class clown dude, made everyone laugh and I got in trouble for it.  You basically just called me a Dick and pi-polar.  I can read between the lines.  I am winning the debates when you go personal on me and lately, that's all you can and will be able to do moving forward.  You lost bro, give it up and get on, "we the people" side.  I just want all of us to be able to pursue and enjoy life and the pursuit of happiness, not just a small few who pay to play.   I forgive you Husker, for you know not what you do.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Sure.  And the article told you exactly what you want to hear, so it must be right.


...or, you cannot accept the Truth.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

crush said:


> I am a comic at heart Husker and always use some humor and satire to poke and play with the bears on both sides.  I want freedom of speech and fairness for all.  I have many aspects to my personality and I share them with all.  New Wave Dave ring a bell?  I share my heart and deepest desires, my dreams, my visions and ideas with you and others in the peanut gallery.  I am authentic, remember that.  I was class clown dude, made everyone laugh and I got in trouble for it.  You basically just called me a Dick and pi-polar.  I can read between the lines.  I am winning the debates when you go personal on me and lately, that's all you can and will be able to do moving forward.  You lost bro, give it up and get on, "we the people" side.  I just want all of us to be able to pursue and enjoy life and the pursuit of happiness, not just a small few who pay to play.   I forgive you Husker, for you know not what you do.


I actually am concerned for you. I hope you work everything out and live your best life. Just surprised by the, now seemingly faux, concern then the it’s all about pissing people off meme. If you want to be taken seriously, well maybe you don’t.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> I notice you don’t want to talk about the elderly.
> 
> Happy to have a real discussion about the overall balance.
> 
> Not interested in having that discussion in some fantasyland where every single negative effect of covid was “baked in”.


...Ok, let's talk about the elderly...at what age do you suggest men join "women and children first"?


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I actually am concerned for you. I hope you work everything out and live your best life. Just surprised by the, now seemingly faux, concern then the it’s all about pissing people off meme. If you want to be taken seriously, well maybe you don’t.


Oh man, thanks for caring about me.  I mean that 100% brother Husker.  Life is 100% the best ever.  It wasn't the best 6 years ago.  Look, I post funny meme from time to time.  I do not mean to piss you off.  I was pissed off for losing everything because of the pandemic.  My best pals lost their businesses and some I know got fired for no jab and some even died because of the pressure of taking the jab.  Blood clots as well.


----------



## watfly

Even if masks worked in a controlled environment, mask mandates don't work in the real world.  Public health policy needs to consider not only effectiveness in the lab but application and implementation for the general public.  Mask mandates distracted from protecting the most vulnerable.  Covid was treated as a one size fits all virus.  As is typical with a one-size-fits-all approach, it ends up not fitting anyone that well.


----------



## crush

Key word from Elon, "Authentic."  Yay, finally we can all be humans and not bots or trolls.  It's time to unlock the truth about the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God   Today is a wonderful day for freedom of speech.  Yippie hooray.  I love all you guys.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> I actually am concerned for you. I hope you work everything out and live your best life. Just surprised by the, now seemingly faux, concern then the it’s all about pissing people off meme. If you want to be taken seriously, well maybe you don’t.


...concerning is psychoanalyzing a complete faceless stranger on a kids soccer forum...under the guise of being taken seriously, of all things.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Trump will not return to Twitter even as Elon Musk purchases platform, will begin using his own TRUTH Social*
*Trump said a Musk Twitter takeover would be a positive development, but he will stay with his own platform-to be continued......*


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Even if masks worked in a controlled environment, mask mandates don't work in the real world.  Public health policy needs to consider not only effectiveness in the lab but application and implementation for the general public.  Mask mandates distracted from protecting the most vulnerable.  Covid was treated as a one size fits all virus.  As is typical with a one-size-fits-all approach, it ends up not fitting anyone that well.


There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


What does more firmly exactly mean?  Like what was tried and failed miserably?  Mandates based on "science"?


----------



## met61

espola said:


> There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


...and there will always be schizophrenics who blindly and uncritically accept public health measures. Hopefully, they will not control the levers of government in the next go-around


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> What does more firmly exactly mean?  Like what was tried and failed miserably?  Mandates based on "science"?


What he means is, he is in favor of gov arbitrarily taking away people's rights because he thinks a face diaper works. He was also a big fan of arbitrarily deciding which biz could be open and closed. 

So you know...putting the thumb on the more authoritarian side of the scale.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> What he means is, he is in favor of gov arbitrarily taking away people's rights because he thinks a face diaper works. He was also a big fan of arbitrarily deciding which biz could be open and closed.
> 
> So you know...putting the thumb on the more authoritarian side of the scale.


The pilots are now speaking out Hound.  I empathize with people who took the jab to save their job and livelihood so they could buy and sell.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


Realistically, next time we won't try for broad public health measures.

When a large chunk of the population refuses to do their part, shared sacrifice is just not an option.

We will issue an advisory, half of us will comply, and half won't. 

If the next round is similar to covid, that means a pandemic more like the original Imperial College forecasts, and less like the one we actually saw.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If the next round is similar to covid, that means a pandemic more like the original Imperial College forecasts, and less like the one we actually saw.


Because all the predictions were so spot on? Oh, brother.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Because all the predictions were so spot on? Oh, brother.


ICL estimate was 2.2M deaths.  Actual deaths were approx 1M. 

Off by a factor of 2.  

Is there some other March 2020 estimate you believe was more accurate?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Because all the predictions were so spot on? Oh, brother.


It’s all bs because the only intervention that had substantial and measurable impact was vaccination. If the modeling gods are able to correctly predict when vaccination will be available and how quickly it will be rolled out, then maybe they might have some value instead of just throwing darts at a dartboard. Most of the experts well recall (including Fauci himself) were wrong as to when and how quickly they could be deployed…an idiot like trump was off by a month here or there.


----------



## Brav520

Neil Ferguson of Imperial College fame was so worried about Covid that he allowed his girl to break quarantine and go against social distancing rules to come visit him


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


“put  them in the gulags” screamed the saving democracy crowd


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> “put  them in the gulags” screamed the saving democracy crowd


... "and silence any dissent"


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> Neil Ferguson of Imperial College fame was so worried about Covid that he allowed his girl to break quarantine and go against social distancing rules to come visit him


So?  My point stands.  If we had done no NPI in April 2020, 2.2 million dead is a reasonable estimate.  

Far better than any estimate coming from right wing media at the time.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> ICL estimate was 2.2M deaths.  Actual deaths were approx 1M.
> 
> Off by a factor of 2.
> 
> Is there some other March 2020 estimate you believe was more accurate?


"If the next round is similar to covid, that means a pandemic more like the original Imperial College forecasts, and less like the one we actually saw."

So, masks dropped it by half? Do you believe we won't pursue a vaccine? Also, I'm not sure how comparable one pandemic is to another. Severity, speed of spread, and mutation are rather variable.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> "If the next round is similar to covid, that means a pandemic more like the original Imperial College forecasts, and less like the one we actually saw."
> 
> So, masks dropped it by half? Do you believe we won't pursue a vaccine? Also, I'm not sure how comparable one pandemic is to another. Severity, speed of spread, and mutation are rather variable.


I think masks and business closures delayed cases until after the vaccine.  The vaccine dropped it by half.  

However, if we have no masks and no lockdowns, that doesn't happen.  The vaccine can't help much if the cases happen before the vaccine is ready.

Put another way, the "get sick now" proposal also means "no vaccines until after it's over".


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> “put  them in the gulags” screamed the saving democracy crowd


Espola is after the believers bro and those who think first with their brain before they inject something in their blood.  The two "Paths" have come to a two-way stop.  The Sociopaths said no to jabs from the Psychopaths trying to kill off the population so they can have the world as their Oyster.  I guess getting fired for saying no to vaccination is not "firm" enough for little psycho and his friends who lie, steal, blackmail, bribe, buy people to cheat and pay folks to spy on others.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

espola said:


> There will always be sociopaths that resist any public health measures.  Hopefully, they will be dealt with more firmly in the next go-around.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> I think masks and business closures delayed cases until after the vaccine.  The vaccine dropped it by half.
> 
> However, if we have no masks and no lockdowns, that doesn't happen.  The vaccine can't help much if the cases happen before the vaccine is ready.
> 
> Put another way, the "get sick now" proposal also means "no vaccines until after it's over".


You still beating that drum.  You mask Nazi’s crack me up.


----------



## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> You still beating that drum.  You mask Nazi’s crack me up.



*Hey bro, get ready for a very wild summer.  Remember when HRC lost to t in 2016 and the lefties and some righties lost their minds?  Then they got caught for spying and looking for a crime t committed in his lifetime.  They also tried to frame the Orangeman for crimes he didn't commit ((just in case t was clean)) so t and his team wouldn't be finding all the truths what the prior administration was up to.  The unmaskers in BO office cheated big time and spied as well.  When you add the Lap Tops from Hell ((Weiner and Hunters Lap Tops)) to the mix, well then you know DC, Hollywood and the News were in big trouble.  Throw in the Plandemic + Riots + Mask + Jabs + boosters + 2000 Mules= Steal the Election!!!  We got a country that is not free at all and actually under assholes who support spying, cheating & lying so they win and have all the power and **control** of our lives.  Dr. F hates our court system and thinks he and the CDC shall make the rules for our lives.  They agree with Espola and will look for "more firm measures" to force jabs in our arms for the next plandemic that will be here sooner then you all can say, "Mid-Term Elections."  They will claim what my liberal best friend says to me all the time; "they had to spy, cheat and hire 2000 mules to steal the election all for the moral reason to save America from t, Nazi's and Putin.  It's their only defense.  *


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Put another way, the "get sick now" proposal also means "no vaccines until after it's over".


Again, you have no idea how the next one will compare to this one. No one does. At least we'll have the perspective of this experience and graph that keeps going around showing infections with and without mask mandates doesn't bode well for mandate religion. Also, we are seeing more and more data on the "side-effects" of the mandates. "Long COVID" includes much more than physical harm. In the highly unlikely event a virus breaks the same way next time, I expect policy will quickly jump to the dichotomy that took months to get to this time. Leaders from the mandate side will make passionate speeches about saving lives after maskless dinner with friends at the French Laundry and go on vacations in mandateless Florida. True believers will continue to see "living" through the lens of "any virus risk is too much" - unless my girl has a game in AZ.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Again,* you have no idea how the next one will compare to this one*. No one does. At least we'll have the perspective of this experience and graph that keeps going around showing infections with and without mask mandates doesn't bode well for mandate religion. Also, we are seeing more and more data on the "side-effects" of the mandates. "Long COVID" includes much more than physical harm. In the highly unlikely event a virus breaks the same way next time, I expect policy will quickly jump to the dichotomy that took months to get to this time. Leaders from the mandate side will make passionate speeches about saving lives after maskless dinner with friends at the French Laundry and go on vacations in mandateless Florida. True believers will continue to see "living" through the lens of "any virus risk is too much" - unless my girl has a game in AZ.


Our country is bought bro.  Most have no clue their bought and some know but are afraid to lose their wealth and status.  Those who stood up to these tyrants got fired, banned, kicked off platforms, no entry to college or events, shamed and some have been killed because they didn't STFU when told to.  Others have been bribed and a few have been blackmailed.  The blackmail their using is death to a loved one if you don't obey or vote the right way.  The "next one" will test us all to the core, especially the fence sitters and those who have worked hard for the American Dream and wanted things to go back to normal and the way things were.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Again, you have no idea how the next one will compare to this one. No one does. At least we'll have the perspective of this experience and graph that keeps going around showing infections with and without mask mandates doesn't bode well for mandate religion.


That is the problem. It is a religion for many.

Despite evidence showing masks work...and quite a few studies showing they don't...you still hear...well if only people had masked up it would have made a difference.

You never hear them talk about terrible educational outcomes for kids stuck not being able to go to classes. You don't hear them talk about families/biz devastated by arbitrary biz closures, etc, etc.

And were hear the mantra still to get vaxxed? Why exactly? Those vaxxes were created to fight the first variant of covid. We don't take shots designed for the flu 2 -3 yrs ago for this years version of it. And yet that is what many still want you to do. And that despite reading that the 3rd of 4th shot of this or that version of the vax lasts a few weeks to a couple of months. As if people are going to get shots every 2-4 months going forward.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Again, you have no idea how the next one will compare to this one. No one does. At least we'll have the perspective of this experience and graph that keeps going around showing infections with and without mask mandates doesn't bode well for mandate religion. Also, we are seeing more and more data on the "side-effects" of the mandates. "Long COVID" includes much more than physical harm. In the highly unlikely event a virus breaks the same way next time, I expect policy will quickly jump to the dichotomy that took months to get to this time. Leaders from the mandate side will make passionate speeches about saving lives after maskless dinner with friends at the French Laundry and go on vacations in mandateless Florida. True believers will continue to see "living" through the lens of "any virus risk is too much" - unless my girl has a game in AZ.


You want to talk about the side effects of the mandates?  Fine.

One side effect of lockdowns and mask mandates is that over half of covid cases were delayed until after the vaccine was available.   That delay saved perhaps a million lives.

A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children.

It is dishonest to focus on one and pretend the other didn’t happen.


----------



## crush

*Get out of the way of this freaking new looking Bear that no one has ever seen. Can you imagine this thing chasing you every night in your sleep?  My buddy plays with his wealth in the financial world and he just called it quits.  Dude is wealthy, not rich.  His Grandpa killed it in Texas back in the oil days.  Then his father took that money and made it even more with one smart move after another.  My buddy took all that wealth and all he does is provide funding to buy companies that always seem to turn into wins and profits.  He does do some private "Angel Funding" and sometimes loses but not much and when he wins with his Angel Dough Investments, he get's a huge return on his Angel money.  He told me yesterday he's never, ever seen such an animal in the financial market and he's done.  57 years old.      *


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Despite evidence showing masks work...and quite a few studies showing they don't...you still hear...well if only people had masked up it would have made a difference.


Type...despite evidence showing masks DONT work...and ....


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children.*


Another side effect was that some dads and moms got fired for not obeying the recommendations from the higher ups, who were not elected to anything but forced a divisive shot on the world and if you didn't comply, you got fired.  The kids now have parents with no chance to earn a living unless they take the jab.  I know many who said no.  The one's who preach like you dad  were selected to do a job that paid them to follow the rules and then preach misinformation about the mask, jabs and boosters.  You will see how wrong you have been.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Another side effect was that some dads and moms got fired for not obeying the recommendations from the higher ups, who were not elected to anything but forced a divisive shot on the world and if you didn't comply, you got fired.  The kids now have parents with no chance to earn a living unless they take the jab.  I know many who said no.  The one's who preach like you dad  were selected to do a job that paid them to follow the rules and then preach misinformation about the mask, jabs and boosters.  You will see how wrong you have been.


Yep. 

Lost year of education for a generation.  Millions of people lost their jobs.  One million fewer people died.  One million fewer children were orphaned.  Ten million families avoided crippling medical bills.

Count all of it.  Both sides.  Not just one.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> One million fewer people died.


That is pure conjecture. 

You like to pull out those big numbers here and there to bolster your argument of the day. But you are simply picking a number out of thin air. 

Outside of nobody ever leaving their houses and being totally isolated, the virus was going to rip through society no matter what. The restrictions put in place didnt stop the virus. They just harmed biz, education, caused severe inflation, etc, etc.


----------



## watfly

At the end of the day its not about the effectiveness of masks, vaccines or lockdowns it was the dishonesty of how effective they were, but even more so the arbitrary nature in which the mandates were applied and who they were applied to.  As well, the "do as I say and not as I do" did nothing to help inspire confidence or compliance in the mandates.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> At the end of the day its not about the effectiveness of masks, vaccines or lockdowns it was the dishonesty of how effective they were, but even more so the arbitrary nature in which the mandates were applied and who they were applied to.  As well, the "do as I say and not as I do" did nothing to help inspire confidence or compliance in the mandates.


Yup.  I have dear friends & family members who obeyed their earthly master ((boss and or health pros)) and took the jabs in order to keep their jobs or to have access to all the fun.  My circle of friends tell me that most of them were under severe duress & threat of losing everything they worked hard for.  Most of the friends are men.  They took the jab for their family in order to keep their job and keep their house and not rock the boat.  I asked four pals this week a question bro.  Would you take the jab now based on the facts you know now and everyone said based on what they know today, no way they take the Original Jab.  All of them stopped after the first one when they were forced to wear mask again, even after being jabbed.  However, that was not what they did.  We will have another threat this summer.  It's all planned.


----------



## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Lost year of education for a generation.  Millions of people lost their jobs.  One million fewer people died.  One million fewer children were orphaned.  Ten million families avoided crippling medical bills.
> 
> Count all of it.  Both sides.  Not just one.


Source?


----------



## dad4

Multi Sport said:


> Source?


Think through it. We had almost a million people die from covid, even though most infections happened after the vaccine was available.

What would have happened if all of those infections had happened at a time when we had no vaccines, and our best medical intervention was ventilators?

If we’re going to play “what if” with how nice it would have been to wear no masks and have everything open the past two years, then we also need to play “what if” with how many people would have gotten hurt in the process.


----------



## Multi Sport

dad4 said:


> Think through it. We had almost a million people die from covid, even though most infections happened after the vaccine was available.
> 
> What would have happened if all of those infections had happened at a time when we had no vaccines, and our best medical intervention was ventilators?
> 
> If we’re going to play “what if” with how nice it would have been to wear no masks and have everything open the past two years, then we also need to play “what if” with how many people would have gotten hurt in the process.


Think through it? I have. With family and friends who are in the medical field. 

The monetary incentive to count deaths as CV19 deaths by hospitals is something to think through.


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Another side effect was that some dads and moms got fired for not obeying the recommendations from the higher ups, who were not elected to anything but forced a divisive shot on the world and if you didn't comply, you got fired.  The kids now have parents with no chance to earn a living unless they take the jab.  I know many who said no.  The one's who preach like you dad  were selected to do a job that paid them to follow the rules and then preach misinformation about the mask, jabs and boosters.  You will see how wrong you have been.


Glad I could do my part.  If you only want the benefits of society without the responsibilities, too bad.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Think through it. We had almost a million people die from covid, even though most infections happened after the vaccine was available.
> 
> What would have happened if all of those infections had happened at a time when we had no vaccines, and our best medical intervention was ventilators?
> 
> If we’re going to play “what if” with how nice it would have been to wear no masks and have everything open the past two years, then we also need to play “what if” with how many people would have gotten hurt in the process.


If only medicine was this black and white


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Think through it. We had almost a million people die from covid, even though most infections happened after the vaccine was available.
> 
> What would have happened if all of those infections had happened at a time when we had no vaccines, and our best medical intervention was ventilators?
> 
> If we’re going to play “what if” with how nice it would have been to wear no masks and have everything open the past two years, then we also need to play “what if” with how many people would have gotten hurt in the process.


...so, no source then...just more playing very loose with the Truth.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Glad I could do my part.  If you only want the benefits of society without the responsibilities, too bad.


...my guess is you're a net negative in society.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> *Glad I could do my part.*


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Glad I could do my part.  If you only want the benefits of society without the responsibilities, too bad.


you are such a crack up.  To actually think that anyone would think that you are in a position of responsibility is just the best.  It's worth it just to read your words to see how you've convinced yourself that people believe.  Just the best.  Thank you, thank you.


----------



## MicPaPa

GoldenGate said:


> Glad I could do my part.  If you only want the benefits of society without the responsibilities, too bad.


Right! Your part is a shit stain on the fabric of a great Nation.


----------



## GoldenGate

what-happened said:


> you are such a crack up.  To actually think that anyone would think that you are in a position of responsibility is just the best.  It's worth it just to read your words to see how you've convinced yourself that people believe.  Just the best.  Thank you, thank you.


Get used to things you don't like.  I get to fire anti-vaxxers/maskers for the sport of it and trans women can race against other women in NCAA and Olympic swim meets.


----------



## watfly

GoldenGate said:


> Get used to things you don't like.  I get to fire anti-vaxxers/maskers for the sport of it and trans women can race against other women in NCAA and Olympic swim meets.


Didn't realize Hot Dog on a Stick had a strict vaxx policy.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Didn't realize Hot Dog on a Stick had a strict vaxx policy.


See...you learn something every day.


----------



## crush

GoldenGate said:


> *I get to fire anti-vaxxers/maskers for the sport of it *


Thanks for being honest.  What % of your work force did you have to fire for not complying to the jab?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> See...you learn something every day.


Maybe he can score me a hat.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Maybe he can score me a hat.


Tell you what...you head down to the mall and get a hot dog from him. I bet you he happily gives you a hat after that.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Didn't realize Hot Dog on a Stick had a strict vaxx policy.



Best hot dog vendor ever in my life was down in Baja Cali over in Ensenada.  These dogs were wrapped in bacon and then his grandma's homemade beans and salsa.  The best dogs ever and my mouth has water in it thinking about them dogs bro.  I would then chase down each dog with Corona and lime.  I would go almost every month to surf, drink beers and eat hot dogs.

San Miguel


Great times have fun and surfing and drinking.  I had this place all to myself for about one hour.  It still was the most epic day of surfing in my life.  It was here where I thought I could be pro.


----------



## GoldenGate

Desert Hound said:


> Tell you what...you head down to the mall and get a hot dog from him. I bet you he happily gives you a hat after that.


How's AZ doing with the Covid-19 death rate?  Still trailing Mississippi? Or is it now the absolute worst, most abysmal state in our country with respect to keeping its citizens alive?


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Tell you what...you head down to the mall and get a hot dog from him. I bet you he happily gives you a hat after that.


So I used to go to Costa Rica all the time for biz. You meet some interesting people down there.

One day a bunch of us are hanging out a one of my fav bars on the beach. I get introduced to a guy from Canada that has a hot dog company. I ask him the name of the company. He smiles and says Mr Tube Steak. Had to check then and there if it was true. And it is.



			https://mrtubesteak.ca/
		


You might want to get a hat from there instead.


----------



## Desert Hound

GoldenGate said:


> How's AZ doing with the Covid-19 death rate?  Still trailing Mississippi? Or is it now the absolute worst, most abysmal state in our country with respect to keeping its citizens alive?


Funny you should ask. It seems that when Californians want to escape the madness of people like you in CA they come out to AZ to live freer and cheaper.

By the way...I have been meaning to ask. When you wear your tinfoil hat while surfing the internet, what brand do you use?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> So I used to go to Costa Rica all the time for biz. You meet some interesting people down there.
> 
> One day a bunch of us are hanging out a one of my fav bars on the beach. I get introduced to a guy from Canada that has a hot dog company. I ask him the name of the company. He smiles and says Mr Tube Steak. Had to check then and there if it was true. And it is.
> 
> 
> 
> https://mrtubesteak.ca/
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to get a hat from there instead.


Did Mr. Tube Steak drive his catering truck all the way to Costa Rica?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Did Mr. Tube Steak drive his catering truck all the way to Costa Rica?


He did not. He has a boatload of them in a variety of Canadian cities.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You want to talk about the side effects of the mandates?  Fine.
> 
> One side effect of lockdowns and mask mandates is that over half of covid cases were delayed until after the vaccine was available.   That delay saved perhaps a million lives.
> 
> A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children.
> 
> It is dishonest to focus on one and pretend the other didn’t happen.


An interesting mix of imagination, fact, and a punch line of great humor. I'm impressed.

First, you start with some counterfactual thinking that allows you to create your desired outcome. Most would just point to that Mandate vs. Non-mandate graph and say, "What?"
"One side effect of lockdowns and mask mandates is that over half of covid cases were delayed until after the vaccine was available.   That delay saved perhaps a million lives."

Then, you present a fact.
"A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children."

Then, you are humorous considering this is exactly how the first year-plus of COVID went. There was zero consideration of anything other than the risk to catch COVID - which was not well understood and often overstated. In education, this extended well beyond a year. The use of "dishonest" is also funny considering how our leaders (political, CDC, and educational) behaved during the lockdowns.
"It is dishonest to focus on one and pretend the other didn’t happen."


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> He did not. He has a boatload of them in a variety of Canadian cities.


All I know about Mr. Tube Steak is from his website.  It looks like he drives his catering trailer to multiple Canadian cities, all of them close to Vancouver.


----------



## Lion Eyes

kickingandscreaming said:


> An interesting mix of imagination, fact, and a punch line of great humor. I'm impressed.
> 
> First, you start with some counterfactual thinking that allows you to create your desired outcome. Most would just point to that Mandate vs. Non-mandate graph and say, "What?"
> "One side effect of lockdowns and mask mandates is that over half of covid cases were delayed until after the vaccine was available.   That delay saved perhaps a million lives."
> 
> Then, you present a fact.
> "A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children."
> 
> Then, you are humorous considering this is exactly how the first year-plus of COVID went. There was zero consideration of anything other than the risk to catch COVID - which was not well understood and often overstated. In education, this extended well beyond a year. The use of "dishonest" is also funny considering how our leaders (political, CDC, and educational) behaved during the lockdowns.
> "It is dishonest to focus on one and pretend the other didn’t happen."


Let's not forget about washing our hands and keeping our 6ft. of distance...


----------



## what-happened

GoldenGate said:


> Get used to things you don't like.  I get to fire anti-vaxxers/maskers for the sport of it and trans women can race against other women in NCAA and Olympic swim meets.


nanny nanny boo boo...seriously, you are great entertainment.  you aren't firing anyone, admit it...and your disdain for women is obvious..  You should voluteer for the next mask hypoxia clinical study - I can send you the link to enroll.


----------



## crush

Lion Eyes said:


> Let's not forget about washing our hands and keeping our 6ft. of distance...


and staying away from loved one's who were dying all alone.


----------



## crush

*Kirk Herbstreit to miss 2022 NFL Draft after finding blood clot in his system.*


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> An interesting mix of imagination, fact, and a punch line of great humor. I'm impressed.
> 
> First, you start with some counterfactual thinking that allows you to create your desired outcome. Most would just point to that Mandate vs. Non-mandate graph and say, "What?"
> "One side effect of lockdowns and mask mandates is that over half of covid cases were delayed until after the vaccine was available.   That delay saved perhaps a million lives."
> 
> Then, you present a fact.
> "A second side effect of the lockdowns and mandates is a lost year of education for around 50 million children."
> 
> Then, you are humorous considering this is exactly how the first year-plus of COVID went. There was zero consideration of anything other than the risk to catch COVID - which was not well understood and often overstated. In education, this extended well beyond a year. The use of "dishonest" is also funny considering how our leaders (political, CDC, and educational) behaved during the lockdowns.
> "It is dishonest to focus on one and pretend the other didn’t happen."


You mean the urban versus rural graph?

NBER is about as neutral and respected as Robert Reich or Paul Krugman.  All three are worth reading, but remember they each have an axe to grind.

I see you’ve picked up Grace’s annoying habit of calling it humor every time you disagree with someone.  It‘s obnoxious.  We don’t need more like that.


----------



## dad4

In other news, some truckers decided to take their protest to Oakland.  

They found out it’s a bad idea to blow your horn non-stop when your truck is next to a grocery store which sells eggs.






I figure some here will defend the constant horn honking, and others will defend the egg throwers.  This is not a good direction for us.  There are basic standards of behavior, and we are abandoning them for the joy of feeling righteous.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I see you’ve picked up Grace’s annoying habit of calling it humor every time you disagree with someone.  It‘s obnoxious.  We don’t need more like that.


I disagreed with your counterfactual thinking and didn't think that was funny. Maybe you are annoyed that someone is calling you out on your lack of self-awareness and finds it funny. 

You have fallen into the habit of stating absolutes that are obviously BS - such as ignoring GG and accusing me of using humor "every time" I disagree with someone. Is that something we need more of or is that obnoxious?


----------



## Multi Sport

crush said:


> *Kirk Herbstreit to miss 2022 NFL Draft after finding blood clot in his system.*


Have noticed an increase in commercials about blood clots? I have..


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> Have noticed an increase in commercials about blood clots? I have..


Yes


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> Have noticed an increase in commercials about blood clots? I have..


I shared about my best pal the teacher.  He's got a few more years until he retires.  He obeys the boss and the boss told him jab or get fired.  He of course was afraid to lose his job, then his wife will be pissed because no job and three kids will need food, his bank wants mortgage payment or else and his credit score means the world to him.  So dude took the jabs and got a blood clot and is now on blood thinner.  He did keep his job and his security but now he's on blood thinner.  I love this guy a lot but he's not the same after the jabs.


----------



## Bubba

Great flying out of Long Beach without wearing a mask in the airport or plane , except for the Uber ride there.
Avoided LAX , could of used the no mask when I had to fly to the east coast twice earlier in the year.


----------



## crush

Get well soon Herbie and I mean that 100%.  I never knew anyone who got a blood clot before and now I know four people.  This is not a joke and something has gone wrong.









						Fully Vaxxed: ESPN's Kirk Herbstreit Develops A Blood Clot. He says it was a "no brainer"...I agree.
					

Yes. You failed to use your brain Kirk. I wonder what you did to piss off the people running this devil show world? How did you wind up getting a real shot? You must have fallen out of line somewhere or they were tired of you?   He says "he is for…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> Have noticed an increase in commercials about blood clots? I have..


I hear so many blood thinner radio commercials now.  My teaching pal is afraid of the next clot around the corner and my nephew is super afraid of the "next one" that he stopped eating meat and is 100% vegan now. 









						ELIQUIS TV Spot, 'Game Plan'
					

This woman's deep vein thrombosis (DVT) often left her wondering if her next blood clot was around the corner. With ELIQUIS, she was able to put a game plan together to treat and reduce her blood clots. ELIQUIS is a prescribed oral medication which is intended to treat people who have been...




					www.ispot.tv


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I disagreed with your counterfactual thinking and didn't think that was funny. Maybe you are annoyed that someone is calling you out on your lack of self-awareness and finds it funny.
> 
> You have fallen into the habit of stating absolutes that are obviously BS - such as ignoring GG and accusing me of using humor "every time" I disagree with someone. Is that something we need more of or is that obnoxious?


So prove me wrong.  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.

Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *So prove me wrong.*  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.
> 
> Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.


Proof is already proven and you dad were 100% wrong.  Your math was so off it looks like lies now.  All you did was scare people with lies and what ifs.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> So prove me wrong.  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.
> 
> Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.


I detect a trend.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I detect a trend.


So do I, so do I.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I detect a trend.


Husker Du and the crying babies.  These babies cry when they lose....lol!

Espola Du

Let me when you and Espola stop crying so we can have some real debate, as men not babies! Tell your side kick to be a man and start answering my questions.  Both of you are the biggest disappointment of men I have ever known.


----------



## crush

@dad4 I found you


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> So prove me wrong.  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.
> 
> Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.


Well there are a variety of things you constantly overlook. 

We see time and time again infection rates rise and fall in rather similar patterns across the world. And the thing that arises time and time again? That regardless of lockdowns or masks we see similar rises and falls in terms of infection rates. This information constantly gets put out there and you constantly avoid it time and time again. 

When adjusting for age/health of populations we see rather similar results in all the states in the US. 

You know what you don't see? 

Any study showing masks make a difference. 
Any study showing lockdowns made any difference in terms of stopping the virus.
Etc etc. 

You know what you do see more and more of? 

Studies showing kids were terribly impacted education wise. 
Studies showing economically states locking down caused more unemployment vs states with lesser restrictions.
Studies showing how many businesses were harmed and or went out of business
Inflation at the highest level in 40 yrs due to spending by gov in order to fruitlessly try to stop the spread of the virus. 
The harms caused by the terrible gov policies are easily seen all around us. We find more and more harms as the months go by. 

----

We see people today running around in masks doing their stuff when A...the masks don't work and B the overwhelming majority of people have no real risk. 

The only people who have had any real risk is the elderly and people with serious health conditions. That has been know since 1-3 months into this. And yet policy was blanket and we attempted to shutter everything and were told everyone is at RISK. Hell some places/schools are still trying or are masking kids in schools. 

If there were a top cheerleader for all the bad ideas at the time...and one who largely today refuses to realize they were wrong it was and is you @dad4


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> *The only people who have had any real risk* is the elderly and people with serious health conditions.


And those who got fired for not obeying the Jab Masters.  "Jab or get fired."  Kids now have parents with no job or money to buy food.  This has caused so much division and pain in the household.  A family I know is now fighting with each other and putting blame on the brother who told everyone on FB that the bible told him to tell everyone that Jesus would have taken the jabs and if you want to be in good standing with the Lord, you must obey your earthly masters who watch over you.  His sister listen to her big bro and is now dead from adverse reactions from her first and last jab.  You can't make this up.


----------



## crush

Now we know why she was crying yesterday.  They blocked the Lap top from hell, why Husker Du and Espola?  

*Elon Musk condemns Twitter censorship of NY Post’s Hunter laptop story: ‘Obviously incredibly inappropriate’*
*Top Twitter executive Vijaya Gadde was said to be responsible for the decision in 2020*


----------



## crush

Hunter went off on Bill in Emails.  KA$H say's to sit back and watch these fools shoot each other in the back.  They will destroy each other and we the people will be set free 

*Hunter Biden ripped Bill Clinton as ‘a--hole’ who ‘looks like s---,' said Clinton aides are 'greedy': Emails*
*'Petty, Greedy, Venal, Low Rent bulls--t is what it is,' Hunter Biden said about Clinton aides double dipping on salaries*


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> and staying away from loved one's who were dying all alone.


That is one of the most tragic, hideous and cruel things our politicians and "experts" cowering in their labs did during the pandemic.  What kind of POS do you have to be to think that is an appropriate thing to do.  Talk about selfish.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That is one of the most tragic, hideous and cruel things our politicians and "experts" cowering in their labs did during the pandemic.  *What kind of POS do you have to be *to think that is an appropriate thing to do.  Talk about selfish.


Evil and selfish go hand and hand bro.  I live by Leisure World.  The fear I see on old people faces is super sad.  Who wants to be 85 and dying all alone after building a family and working your ass off only to die alone?  Hospitals made over $100,000 per patient that tested positive for Covid as well as stroke.  Look wat fly, I have no idea about the truth of life after death.  I read and go by what my brain and heart tell me, which you and all the others should take with a grain of salt.  I will say I think I am right based on my experience of testing the spirits.  I will say we have been lied to 100% about why were here on the planet.  I dont trust anyone.  I poke people with Christ because it has a reaction that I find fascinating.  You mention Jesus or Yeshua to certain people and they freak out over that name.  No other name causes people to lash out and go nuts.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Think through it. We had almost a million people die from covid, even though most infections happened after the vaccine was available.


Fortunately, Omicron was far less lethal than prime or delta.  Kinda need to factor that in on both sides as well… sometimes you get lucky, but that doesn’t mean we ‘saved’ that many lives or that masks were that ineffective.  Goes both ways.


----------



## N00B

GoldenGate said:


> Get used to things you don't like.  I get to fire anti-vaxxers/maskers for the sport


So when you ‘fire’ folks for sport (why does that make me picture ‘The Apprentice’) do you fraudulently dispute their unemployment claims?  Seems like that’s what you’ve said more than once.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So prove me wrong.  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.
> 
> Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.



I don't think any government and only the most extreme people on team reason were saying it should all be open with no restrictions pre-vaccine.  You have a sample to see what would happen with moderate restrictions and which could have been improved upon: Sweden (could have isolated nursing homes better too and substantially lowered their numbers), Florida, Arizona (could have done better if the border wasn't an issue and if better care had been given on native american reservations), Georgia, Russia, Iowa, South Carolina, Georgia (the country), Utah, South Dakota, Norway (stricter restrictions, less restrictive on masks)


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> So prove me wrong.  Honestly talk about what would have happened if we had kept everything open and none of us wore masks.
> 
> Right now, it seems people here want to talk about the nice parts of keeping it all open, but completely ignore the unpleasant parts.


There's no "proof" - just a bunch of counterfactuals. I'm surprised someone with such a deep understanding of mathematics would use that word for what we are doing. You will imagine your outcome and I will imagine mine.

The urban vs. rural graph you identify supports my counterfactual beyond the similar magnitude. It also shows the timing of surges was identical - mask mandate or no mask mandate. It wasn't as if suddenly people stopped or started to wear masks. That indicates that masks are only marginally helpful, at best. Then we have "real world" examples. Florida schools opened - no spike, TX dropped its mask mandate, - no spike - GA dropped the mask mandate - no spike. These aren't lab studies. This is what happened.









						Florida schools reopened en masse, but a surge in coronavirus didn't follow, a USA TODAY analysis finds
					

A USA TODAY analysis shows the state’s positive case count among kids ages 5 to 17 declined through late September after a peak in July.



					www.usatoday.com
				












						Texas coronavirus cases haven't surged since Gov. Greg Abbott lifted the mask order. Experts warn it's too soon to celebrate.
					

Daily new cases and the positivity rate have leveled off over the past month, while deaths and hospitalization have gone down substantially.




					www.texastribune.org
				












						Why Georgia’s reopening hasn’t led to a surge in coronavirus cases (so far)
					

Georgia’s experience could teach us a lot about Covid-19 and its spread.




					www.vox.com
				




Do you mean a non-mask mandate? I'm not for that either. The point is many would have behaved the same way - mandate or not. People can, and do still, wear masks. We closed down parks here in SC County (and LA county) despite the evidence that the risk was small and the benefit for children is immense. We closed down open space areas where the walking trails allowed adults to get out and escape for a while. It was lunacy, really - no science to support it just a bunch of irrationally fearful adults. I was waiting to hear about the risk of getting the virus because someone is out surfing again. Fortunately, we have moved beyond that. The biggest problem with mandates is that they will always divide people. The less justified they are by evidence, the more they will divide. Here we are.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> There's no "proof" - just a bunch of counterfactuals. I'm surprised someone with such a deep understanding of mathematics would use that word for what we are doing. You will imagine your outcome and I will imagine mine.
> 
> The urban vs. rural graph you identify supports my counterfactual beyond the similar magnitude. It also shows the timing of surges was identical - mask mandate or no mask mandate. It wasn't as if suddenly people stopped or started to wear masks. That indicates that masks are only marginally helpful, at best. Then we have "real world" examples. Florida schools opened - no spike, TX dropped its mask mandate, - no spike - GA dropped the mask mandate - no spike. These aren't lab studies. This is what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida schools reopened en masse, but a surge in coronavirus didn't follow, a USA TODAY analysis finds
> 
> 
> A USA TODAY analysis shows the state’s positive case count among kids ages 5 to 17 declined through late September after a peak in July.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas coronavirus cases haven't surged since Gov. Greg Abbott lifted the mask order. Experts warn it's too soon to celebrate.
> 
> 
> Daily new cases and the positivity rate have leveled off over the past month, while deaths and hospitalization have gone down substantially.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.texastribune.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Georgia’s reopening hasn’t led to a surge in coronavirus cases (so far)
> 
> 
> Georgia’s experience could teach us a lot about Covid-19 and its spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean a non-mask mandate? I'm not for that either. The point is many would have behaved the same way - mandate or not. People can, and do still, wear masks. We closed down parks here in SC County (and LA county) despite the evidence that the risk was small and the benefit for children is immense. We closed down open space areas where the walking trails allowed adults to get out and escape for a while. It was lunacy, really - no science to support it just a bunch of irrationally fearful adults. I was waiting to hear about the risk of getting the virus because someone is out surfing again. Fortunately, we have moved beyond that. The biggest problem with mandates is that they will always divide people. The less justified they are by evidence, the more they will divide. Here we are.


This was all planned to destroy our country, especially small business, mom and pop pubs, eat places where people chat about the latest going ons.  They forced 6 feet back away from me rules and put a mask on.  No visits to see dying parents and no visits for holidays.  Pure evil is plain to see now so we can all choose our bed to sleep in finally.  Look at San Francisco.  100,000+ people have left that city in the last 12 months.  People are going poo poo on the street and then breaking into cars after they take their dump.  My dd friend was all set to go to SFSU this year until her car got broken into on her visit.  Now she's going to Santa Cruz instead.  I have to go to Venice on Saturday for a very special night with my wife and a few close friends.  Were going early to see how I can help those in need.  I will take some pics and put on here.


----------



## crush

These two little vampires just admitted that they drink each others blood, but for "ritual purposes only."  The level of commitment a soul has to go through to gain success in this country is insane.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> There's no "proof" - just a bunch of counterfactuals. I'm surprised someone with such a deep understanding of mathematics would use that word for what we are doing. You will imagine your outcome and I will imagine mine.
> 
> The urban vs. rural graph you identify supports my counterfactual beyond the similar magnitude. It also shows the timing of surges was identical - mask mandate or no mask mandate. It wasn't as if suddenly people stopped or started to wear masks. That indicates that masks are only marginally helpful, at best. Then we have "real world" examples. Florida schools opened - no spike, TX dropped its mask mandate, - no spike - GA dropped the mask mandate - no spike. These aren't lab studies. This is what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida schools reopened en masse, but a surge in coronavirus didn't follow, a USA TODAY analysis finds
> 
> 
> A USA TODAY analysis shows the state’s positive case count among kids ages 5 to 17 declined through late September after a peak in July.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas coronavirus cases haven't surged since Gov. Greg Abbott lifted the mask order. Experts warn it's too soon to celebrate.
> 
> 
> Daily new cases and the positivity rate have leveled off over the past month, while deaths and hospitalization have gone down substantially.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.texastribune.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Georgia’s reopening hasn’t led to a surge in coronavirus cases (so far)
> 
> 
> Georgia’s experience could teach us a lot about Covid-19 and its spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean a non-mask mandate? I'm not for that either. The point is many would have behaved the same way - mandate or not. People can, and do still, wear masks. We closed down parks here in SC County (and LA county) despite the evidence that the risk was small and the benefit for children is immense. We closed down open space areas where the walking trails allowed adults to get out and escape for a while. It was lunacy, really - no science to support it just a bunch of irrationally fearful adults. I was waiting to hear about the risk of getting the virus because someone is out surfing again. Fortunately, we have moved beyond that. The biggest problem with mandates is that they will always divide people. The less justified they are by evidence, the more they will divide. Here we are.


If you believe that the vaccine reduces deaths, then what happens if we all get sick before the vaccine exists?

This isn’t a difficult question.  But you don’t like the answer, so you word spam.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> If you believe that the vaccine reduces deaths, then what happens if we all get sick before the vaccine exists?
> 
> This isn’t a difficult question.  But you don’t like the answer, so you word spam.


Being that there is still a 99% survival rate, death isn’t a forgone conclusion, nor is hospitalization and the fact a virus mutates typically to more non-lethal variants, not too much.  My suggestion, analyze the statistics like:

- The death statistics, focus on the segment of the population that represents 75+% and protect them. 

- continue to promote things that have been proven (early on) to help fend off severity of symptoms like Zinc, Vitamin D and C as well as moderate daily exercise and a diet high in leafy greens. 

- recommend those with health risks take steps to mask up, avoid crowded spaces and socially distance themselves.  

There is a common ground.


----------



## watfly

If mask mandates are so effective why did we have to close down public spaces, businesses and schools?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If you believe that the vaccine reduces deaths, then what happens if we all get sick before the vaccine exists?
> 
> This isn’t a difficult question.  But you don’t like the answer, so you word spam.


Oh, I thought the answer was implied. I don't think a mandate would have made a significant difference. Sure, recommend distancing, masking, etc. During the first wave, while there were many unknowns, I would have supported the mandate because we didn't know much. I thought you may have wanted some supporting "real-world" evidence for not supporting mandates which I supplied. Where is your "real-world" evidence?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Being that there is still a 99% survival rate, death isn’t a forgone conclusion, nor is hospitalization and the fact a virus mutates typically to more non-lethal variants, not too much.  My suggestion, analyze the statistics like:
> 
> - The death statistics, focus on the segment of the population that represents 75+% and protect them.
> 
> - continue to promote things that have been proven (early on) to help fend off severity of symptoms like Zinc, Vitamin D and C as well as moderate daily exercise and a diet high in leafy greens.
> 
> - recommend those with health risks take steps to mask up, avoid crowded spaces and socially distance themselves.
> 
> There is a common ground.


Those are all things other people can do.  

What sacrifices are _you_ prepared to make as part of that common ground?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> If mask mandates are so effective why did we have to close down public spaces, businesses and schools?


Perhaps we didn’t.  And some of those may have been more important than others.  

We have a lot to learn from what we did wrong.  But “next time do nothing” is the wrong conclusion.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Those are all things other people can do.
> 
> What sacrifices are _you_ prepared to make as part of that common ground?


The single most important thing is to quarantine if you're sick.  Everything else is effectively window dressing and the individual has far more responsibility and control for their own health than their neighbor does.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Perhaps we didn’t.  And some of those may have been more important than others.
> 
> We have a lot to learn from what we did wrong.  But “next time do nothing” is the wrong conclusion.


No one is proposing do nothing, but good luck implementing any mandates for the next pandemic.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> No one is proposing do nothing, but good luck implementing any mandates for the next pandemic.


You’re probably right that next time we will have a purely voluntary disease containment system.

I just don’t think it will be very effective, even when compared to what we did over the last 2 years.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> *I don't think a mandate would have made a significant difference. Sure, recommend distancing, masking, etc. During the first wave, while there were many unknowns, I would have supported the mandate because we didn't know much.*


The keyword is "we" didn't know shit about anything because the one pulling the strings is paying people off with killer jobs to play along and to STFU or they get no money.  Bribes is played as well and blackmail is used at the highest level on this planet.  Seriously, when we find out who got blackmailed and the punishment for not obeying the blackmailer, we will all have compassion on those who cheated because they got blackmailed. Once someone get's bought with a job, then they can be bribed and then blackmailed.  If you refused to get the jab and pay with your own blood, then you were cut off from buying and selling.  I read this in Revelations 13 and have some great insights at 55.  Revelations is all about the revealing of the TRUTH, not Armageddon, nukes, hell, fear and judgement with severe punishment.  Its all about the reveling of all the wonderful and beautiful mysteries that were kept from us all.  I know were all dying to know more about all this.  Like, "why was I born" and "where do I come from" and "Is there a God" "is the bible real?" And this one, "what happens after I die?"  Like really, none of us really know the truth because "they" kept the truth from us.  They know the truth but they deliberately hid the truth so we would be in the mess.  Now what?

*"The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.  That number is 666.*

I don't know exactly what all these numbers mean and I am no biblical scholar, but it doesn't say you can't eat and survive if you don't take the mark.  It only says you can't buy or sell, which is not the worst thing in the world.  You can still eat and play and move about is how I read into it. Fear based anything to get people to obey a ruler sucks!!!  Love you brother, regardless if we agree on anything.....lol.  We agree on so much that were truly soul brothers from another mother and have much in common.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Those are all things other people can do.
> 
> What sacrifices are _you_ prepared to make as part of that common ground?


The ones I’ve already made…


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> No one is proposing do nothing, but good luck implementing any mandates for the next pandemic.


This last plandemic was just a dry run to see who the trouble makers are and who the sheep are.  Now that they know, mark my words we will have the real test of manhood coming before mid-terms.  I kid you not.  Who will pass the test?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> What sacrifices are _you_ prepared to make as part of that common ground?


The part you miss is that if one is to sacrifice something it must actually make a difference. 

Keeping kids out of schools didn't
Putting people out of work didn't
Running around with masks didn't
Printing money and creating the largest inflation rate in 40 yrs didn't
Firing people for not being vaxxed didn't

Outside of virtue signaling that "we" are doing something, none made a difference. The virus spread. 

Quarantine if you sick? YES
Focus on getting a vax out to the most vulnerable...YES


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> The single most important thing is to quarantine if you're sick.  Everything else is effectively window dressing and the individual has far more responsibility and control for their own health than their neighbor does.


I’ve read people who are asymptomatic don’t know they are sick, is that a thing? Asking for a fellow poster.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’ve read people who are asymptomatic don’t know they are sick, is that a thing? Asking for a fellow poster.


You should ask this guy


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’ve read people who are asymptomatic don’t know they are sick, is that a thing? Asking for a fellow poster.


Making policy based on the assumption that everyone could be sick is a high cost/low benefit approach aka bad policy.  It also takes the focus away from those far more likely to spread the virus.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’ve read people who are asymptomatic don’t know they are sick, is that a thing? Asking for a fellow poster.


BTW, California must have thought there wasn't risk from asymptomatics when they allowed Covid positive nurses to return to work.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The part you miss is that if one is to sacrifice something it must actually make a difference.
> 
> Keeping kids out of schools didn't
> Putting people out of work didn't
> Running around with masks didn't
> Printing money and creating the largest inflation rate in 40 yrs didn't
> Firing people for not being vaxxed didn't
> 
> Outside of virtue signaling that "we" are doing something, none made a difference. The virus spread.
> 
> Quarantine if you sick? YES
> Focus on getting a vax out to the most vulnerable...YES


Nonsense.

But please continue.  No one expects anything better from you at this point.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Those are all things other people can do.
> 
> What sacrifices are _you_ prepared to make as part of that common ground?


If my daughter was in public school or if she would have been in college, I would have gladly made myself available to teach HS on campus after getting my vaccine if it would have gotten the kids back in school sooner. I would have accepted wearing a mask inside if required as well.

This goes to a different approach that I believe, historically, is much more suited to our culture than enforcing mandates. Ask people to problem-solve - don't force things on them. Allow people to be part of the solution instead of using an authoritarian approach which was the antithesis of our country's foundation.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Making policy based on the assumption that everyone could be sick is a high cost/low benefit approach aka bad policy.  It also takes the focus away from those far more likely to spread the virus.


Excellent come back bro and I like that Husker engages you and me others.  The focus the last two years was simple.  Scare the shit out of people first and foremost and cause chaos and confusion and then force people to obey or else and then steal the election from t so they can single handily steal the American Dream from us regular folks.  Buckle up cowboy because the ride is going to be a rough one and you have no saddle bro.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> *Nonsense.*
> 
> But please continue.  No one expects anything better from you at this point.


@Desert Hound this is how Espola started with me years ago.  "Nonsense" and then a few "Coo Coo."  If you continue on a roll and trigger him even past Coo Coo, then he will go low blow and personal, use other Avatars to speak through his true feelings and then he will ignore you.  Husker Du has 36 on ignore and I'm not one of them, imagine that.  Love you Hound Dog


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> If my daughter was in public school or if she would have been in college, I would have gladly made myself available to teach HS on campus after getting my vaccine if it would have gotten the kids back in school sooner. I would have accepted wearing a mask inside if required as well.
> 
> This goes to a different approach that I believe, historically, is much more suited to our culture than enforcing mandates. Ask people to problem-solve - don't force things on them. Allow people to be part of the solution instead of using an authoritarian approach which was the antithesis of our country's foundation.


Cuz some won’t cooperate anyways right? Some militantly so . . .
Your last line reminded me of this from second grade history: The Continental Army was the army of the Thirteen Colonies and the Revolutionary-era United States. It was *formed by the Second Continental Congress after the outbreak of the American Revolutionary War*, and was established by a resolution of Congress on June 14, 1775.


----------



## crush

Dr. F just announced were out of the pandemic stage and we can all go back to the way things were.  Yay and yippie all in one   I feel safe now and feel like the worst is all behind us.  This is amazing news and I hope we can all get along now, mask or no mask and jab or no jab.  Let's hire those people back who got fired.  Pay them for their losses.  No more masks, so stoked.  My buddy is all bent and out of his mind today.


----------



## Desert Hound

CDC and FDA 'altered' Covid guidance while under pressure, report
					

Federal investigators spoke to more than two dozen top-level directors and managers who worked at the agencies behind the country's public health guidance that aimed to keep Americans safe.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




With time the facts start to trickle out...and it makes the gov and the maskers/lockdowners look worse and worse.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> In other news, some truckers decided to take their protest to Oakland.
> 
> They found out it’s a bad idea to blow your horn non-stop when your truck is next to a grocery store which sells eggs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figure some here will defend the constant horn honking, and others will defend the egg throwers.  This is not a good direction for us.  *There are basic standards of behavior, and we are abandoning them for the joy of feeling righteous.*


Sums up the behaviour of politicians, CEOs  and political public health "officials" the last 18-24 months.  Hey you, 5 yr old, wear a mask.. hey you, healthy 20 year old, vaxxed and boosted please.  The Drake meme comes to mind.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> If you believe that the vaccine reduces deaths, then what happens if we all get sick before the vaccine exists?
> 
> This isn’t a difficult question.  But you don’t like the answer, so you word spam.


Your problem is you live in this black and white world.  Plenty of things contributed to people, dying, they always do.  A novel virus killed plenty of people.  They were likley going to die anyway.  American society is obese and unhealthy, prime hunting ground for viruses..  This one more so than others before it.  Cardio vascular unhealthyness led to mass deaths.   ISending people home and telling them to call back if they got sicker killed people.  Not providing early intervention with available treatment killed people.  Plenty of blame to go around...novel viruses tend to do that.  Did vaccines save lives...sure,   Did masking..maybe.  Did isolation for two weeks help, maybe..it's a novel virus.  Did ventilators kill people..yep. We literally killed people thinkiging we were saving them.  Turns out in many cases, non invasive venting would have been the way to go.  So many things to disect.  

Linear approaches to this kind of stuff is rather silly.  Lockdown are always effective until they are not - lockdowns are always short lived and are counterproductive to society when they go long.  Mutation is what "saved" us, not vaccines, not masks, not lockdowns.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Hey you, 5 yr old, wear a mask.. hey you, healthy 20 year old, vaxxed and boosted please.  The Drake meme comes to mind.


Master of the Universe:  Hey husband and father of two with bills to pay and pressure to make a boat load of $$$ so you can pay to play on the planet

The Man:  You talking to me?

Master: Yes

The Man:  What up master

Master: You must wear a mask and take jabs of unknown substance into your blood stream or you can't work for me anymore

The Man ((me)):  Never!!!


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> Your problem is you live in this black and white world.  Plenty of things contributed to people, dying, they always do.  A novel virus killed plenty of people.  They were likley going to die anyway.  American society is obese and unhealthy, prime hunting ground for viruses..  This one more so than others before it.  Cardio vascular unhealthyness led to mass deaths.   ISending people home and telling them to call back if they got sicker killed people.  Not providing early intervention with available treatment killed people.  Plenty of blame to go around...novel viruses tend to do that.  Did vaccines save lives...sure,   Did masking..maybe.  Did isolation for two weeks help, maybe..it's a novel virus.  Did ventilators kill people..yep. We literally killed people thinkiging we were saving them.  Turns out in many cases, non invasive venting would have been the way to go.  So many things to disect.
> 
> Linear approaches to this kind of stuff is rather silly.  Lockdown are always effective until they are not - lockdowns are always short lived and are counterproductive to society when they go long.  Mutation is what "saved" us, not vaccines, not masks, not lockdowns.


"Likely going to die anyway" is a pretty loose excuse that can be used in almost any situation.

Shame on you.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> CDC and FDA 'altered' Covid guidance while under pressure, report
> 
> 
> Federal investigators spoke to more than two dozen top-level directors and managers who worked at the agencies behind the country's public health guidance that aimed to keep Americans safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With time the facts start to trickle out...and it makes the gov and the maskers/lockdowners look worse and worse.


Another black eye for those agencies where credibility is paramount. It's sad.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> CDC and FDA 'altered' Covid guidance while under pressure, report
> 
> 
> Federal investigators spoke to more than two dozen top-level directors and managers who worked at the agencies behind the country's public health guidance that aimed to keep Americans safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With time the facts start to trickle out...and it makes the gov and the maskers/lockdowners look worse and worse.


Not to be that guy but it refers mostly to pressure from the Trump administration.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> "Likely going to die anyway" is a pretty loose excuse that can be used in almost any situation.
> 
> Shame on you.


in this case i was referring to likley going to die from covid-19 once infected with SARs-COV2, not just from any situation. My bad if I didn't specify.  

Are you not able to handle reality?  Unfortunately many that died were soon to die anyway.  Whether it was from covid-19 or another virus.


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Not to be that guy but it refers mostly to pressure from the Trump administration.


Doesn't matter where the pressure comes from. Unions, right, left..... When the health agencies become political, the health part suffers. And the trust wanes.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> in this case i was referring to likley going to die from covid-19 once infected with SARs-COV2, not just from any situation. My bad if I didn't specify.
> 
> Are you not able to handle reality?  Unfortunately many that died were soon to die anyway.  Whether it was from covid-19 or another virus.


Yup.  Let's all not forget two years ago when gun shot victim to the head, brain dead stroke victim and all the other ER visits were counted as died from((with)) Covid?  Why?  For more money, that's why.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> in this case i was referring to likley going to die from covid-19 once infected with SARs-COV2, not just from any situation. My bad if I didn't specify.
> 
> Are you not able to handle reality?  Unfortunately many that died were soon to die anyway.  Whether it was from covid-19 or another virus.


That excuse can be used for any risk.  Seatbelts?  Air traffic control? Asbestos filters on cigarettes?  Those people were going to die anyway.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Not to be that guy but it refers mostly to pressure from the Trump administration.


You are not that guy. 

The article just shows these agencies bowed to political pressure. We know they certainly did as well under the Biden admin as it relates to the teachers union helping to adjust rules. 

The whole process has been political from day one. Which is why so many things didn't make any sense.


----------



## crush

*Fauci clarifies 'the pandemic is not over' on NPR podcast*

"The pandemic is not over. Don’t anyone think that," he insisted.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> That excuse can be used for any risk.  Seatbelts?  Air traffic control? Asbestos filters on cigarettes?  Those people were going to die anyway.


you aren't even in the same zip code and you are emotionally missing my point.  I'm not giving you excuses, they are reasons. 

This virus was/is going to be fatal to many people, mainly to the unhealthy and elderly demographic.  Mutation is leading cause of mitigation, not masking, not vaccines, even though vaccination certainly helped to reduce mortality.  I would even agree that lockdowns mitigated mortality, to some degree.  Isolation always works.  As a society, we did many things wrong, many.  Some for the right reasons, some for the wrong reasons.  The right reason was our lack of understanding, treating based on what happened last time or working off of a dated playbook. The wrong reasons were driven by politics.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> you aren't even in the same zip code and you are emotionally missing my point.  I'm not giving you excuses, they are reasons.
> 
> This virus was/is going to be fatal to many people, mainly to the unhealthy and elderly demographic.  Mutation is leading cause of mitigation, not masking, not vaccines, even though vaccination certainly helped to reduce mortality.  I would even agree that lockdowns mitigated mortality, to some degree.  Isolation always works.  As a society, we did many things wrong, many.  Some for the right reasons, some for the wrong reasons.  The right reason was our lack of understanding, treating based on what happened last time or working off of a dated playbook. The wrong reasons were driven by politics.


People who die in car accidents typically don't have 4 other contributing causes of death.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> People who die in car accidents typically don't have 4 other contributing causes of death.


Beds in assisted living facilities turned over in less then three years pre-COVID. We’re closing in on that mark for the most vulnerable.

There is a reason NY handled things the way they did in the absence of other data.  Kinda like the women and children first approach to disasters.  Can’t argue both sides with outrage.


----------



## Desert Hound

N00B said:


> Beds in assisted living facilities turned over in less then three years pre-COVID. We’re closing in on that mark for the most vulnerable.
> 
> There is a reason NY handled things the way they did in the absence of other data.  Kinda like the women and children first approach to disasters.  Can’t argue both sides with outrage.


Within 2 months of the start of the whole thing we knew exactly who was at risk. By that time it was too late as it relates to what NY did with nursing homes..FYI. 

However we continued on the path of pretending everyone was at risk.

So we kept schools shut. We kept biz closed. We limited all kinds of things that didn't protect the population at large. We knew it was the elderly and people with serious health issues that were at risk. The rest of us? 

There was no reason to restrict the population at large since the data showed the vast VAST majority were not at risk. And those of us looking at the data were told WE were the crazy ones and had it all wrong. Funny how with time it shows who was largely right. 

Up until just months ago we heard many clamoring for mandatory vaxxes. 

One has to wonder why?

Why mandatory vax someone who...

1 Doesn't have any real risk?
2 We know the vax doesn't stop you from getting it
3 We know the vax doesn't stop you from spreading it
Points 2 and 3 really kill any argument for a mandatory vaxx by the way. Our VP has covid right now. This after being vaxxed and boosted many times. 

- So why mandate them to get a vax if they don't want it? It literally makes no difference to the vast majority of the population if they get vaxxed or not. 

And yet many demand the person above get the vax. Why? 

Note: If I were in a high risk group I would have been the first in line to get a vaxx when they came out. 

So many things done made little to no sense. Especially in light of the fact that the data kept coming out showing who was at risk, how the vax was working etc. 

Side note of vaxxes and certain mindsets. I have family in the bay area. One of them was proudly letting people know he got boosted (again) yesterday. His friends (mostly in the bay area) were excited and talking about them getting boosted. I couldn't help but think the booster you got lasts at most a couple of months. It is for the original version of the virus...and how many times a year are you going to take a shot for a virus that has mutated to basically a version of the flu? A lot of groupthink in that part of CA.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Within 2 months of the start of the whole thing we knew exactly who was at risk. By that time it was too late as it relates to what NY did with nursing homes..FYI.
> 
> However we continued on the path of pretending everyone was at risk.
> 
> So we kept schools shut. We kept biz closed. We limited all kinds of things that didn't protect the population at large. We knew it was the elderly and people with serious health issues that were at risk. The rest of us?
> 
> There was no reason to restrict the population at large since the data showed the vast VAST majority were not at risk. And those of us looking at the data were told WE were the crazy ones and had it all wrong. Funny how with time it shows who was largely right.
> 
> Up until just months ago we heard many clamoring for mandatory vaxxes.
> 
> One has to wonder why?
> 
> Why mandatory vax someone who...
> 
> 1 Doesn't have any real risk?
> 2 We know the vax doesn't stop you from getting it
> 3 We know the vax doesn't stop you from spreading it
> Points 2 and 3 really kill any argument for a mandatory vaxx by the way. Our VP has covid right now. This after being vaxxed and boosted many times.
> 
> - So why mandate them to get a vax if they don't want it? It literally makes no difference to the vast majority of the population if they get vaxxed or not.
> 
> And yet many demand the person above get the vax. Why?
> 
> Note: If I were in a high risk group I would have been the first in line to get a vaxx when they came out.
> 
> So many things done made little to no sense. Especially in light of the fact that the data kept coming out showing who was at risk, how the vax was working etc.
> 
> Side note of vaxxes and certain mindsets. I have family in the bay area. One of them was proudly letting people know he got boosted (again) yesterday. His friends (mostly in the bay area) were excited and talking about them getting boosted. I couldn't help but think the booster you got lasts at most a couple of months. It is for the original version of the virus...and how many times a year are you going to take a shot for a virus that has mutated to basically a version of the flu? A lot of groupthink in that part of CA.


I have some friends that brag about their boosters.  It's the cool thing to do and in their brains, the righteous thing to do as well.  They are so self righteous it's like their a part of some religious cult.  If you don't do boosters, you're not in their fellowship anymore.  I know people who got the first jab and second jab and said no mas and no to boosters and now their labeled anti-vaxxers.  The only really true elite person now is all in boosters now and forevermore.  I call my best pal, "booster boy" and he calls  me, "rule breaker."  I know why they did this Hound and it has nothing to do with our safety or health. These people are the most selfish on the planet.  They smile at you and tell you they care about you but it's not true.  They will throw a knife at you in your back in order to stay on top.  They cheat, spy and lie and they got busted.  Hound, they cheat for money & power, plain and simple.


----------



## crush

*Mark the actor got his 4th jab and he's so proud of it.  Herbie from ESPN was all proud and bragging about all his jabs and now he's at home resting from a very dangerous blood clot in his blood.  I heard more radio ads to make sure you get fully vaccinated and please do the right thing to protect others and get the jabs and the boosters, for free even.  It's a soft approach today and more about being righteous among your fellow neighbors.  I have a very sic feeling that this all going to get nastier and meaner. *


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of more info coming out as time goes on...the case gets more interesting.






						Russia Hoax: Durham Staffer Accidentally Reveals Emails Showing Coordination Between Fusion GPS And Media | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com
				












						Durham's latest: He has hundreds of e-mails between Fusion GPS and reporters
					

Also - DARPA Contracts and Classified data




					technofog.substack.com
				












						2022-04-25 - Durham HUGE reporter email list.pdf
					

Case 1:21-cr-00582-CRC Document 98-1 Filed 04/25/22 Page 1 of 62. Case 1:21-cr-00582-CRC Document 98-1 Filed 04/25/22 Page 2 of 62. Case 1:21-cr-00582-CRC Document 98-1 Filed 04/25/22 Page 3 of 62. ...




					sleuthscorner.docdroid.com


----------



## Desert Hound

And on the other front...Ukraine. 

Some observations. 

- It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days. 

They of course have not. 

- Russian equipment is not as good as was thought. In large part the country relies on a few major contractors all of which are corrupt. In the US we have a variety of manufacturers responsible for producing planes. In Russia basically all planes are produced by one company. There is no competition, oversight, etc.

The failure rate of missiles in Ukraine has been shockingly high. 

Etc etc. 

That said they have enough munitions to blanket bomb/level cities. 

- Russian logistics are terrible
- Russian on the ground leadership is terrible. They still suffer from the fact they do not use NCO's in the fashion that the West does. By that it means allowing NCO's to make on the ground decisions as events unfold. Essentially their decision making is not nimble. 
- Planning...which involves leadership has been poor. They way they have moved armor around has left them very vulnerable to Ukrainian defenses. The Russians have not used infantry properly to help protect armor. 
- Maybe most surprising is how with all their planes, Russia still does not posses air superiority over the Ukrainians. 
- The bulk of their forces are made up of poorly trained conscripts. They serve 12 months. That is enough to get some basic training in, but not enough to match the professionalism of lets say US troops who have longer terms/more training. The lack of training is very apparent in terms of how badly the Russians have done in Ukraine. 

All in all it has been rather eye opening in terms of how badly they have performed since the invasion.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> And on the other front...Ukraine.
> 
> Some observations.
> 
> - It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.
> 
> They of course have not.
> 
> - Russian equipment is not as good as was thought. In large part the country relies on a few major contractors all of which are corrupt. In the US we have a variety of manufacturers responsible for producing planes. In Russia basically all planes are produced by one company. There is no competition, oversight, etc.
> 
> The failure rate of missiles in Ukraine has been shockingly high.
> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> That said they have enough munitions to blanket bomb/level cities.
> 
> - Russian logistics are terrible
> - Russian on the ground leadership is terrible. They still suffer from the fact they do not use NCO's in the fashion that the West does. By that it means allowing NCO's to make on the ground decisions as events unfold. Essentially their decision making is not nimble.
> - Planning...which involves leadership has been poor. They way they have moved armor around has left them very vulnerable to Ukrainian defenses. The Russians have not used infantry properly to help protect armor.
> - Maybe most surprising is how with all their planes, Russia still does not posses air superiority over the Ukrainians.
> - The bulk of their forces are made up of poorly trained conscripts. They serve 12 months. That is enough to get some basic training in, but not enough to match the professionalism of lets say US troops who have longer terms/more training. The lack of training is very apparent in terms of how badly the Russians have done in Ukraine.
> 
> All in all it has been rather eye opening in terms of how badly they have performed since the invasion.


Go deeper Hound


----------



## Desert Hound

An interesting read. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519160793790656513


----------



## Desert Hound

Operation Z: The Death Throes of an Imperial Delusion
					

Russia's military setbacks in Ukraine pose a new set of security challenges in Europe and beyond.




					rusi.org


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Side note of vaxxes and certain mindsets. I have family in the bay area. One of them was proudly letting people know he got boosted (again) yesterday. His friends (mostly in the bay area) were excited and talking about them getting boosted. I couldn't help but think the booster you got lasts at most a couple of months. It is for the original version of the virus...and how many times a year are you going to take a shot for a virus that has mutated to basically a version of the flu? A lot of groupthink in that part of CA.


Again, with apologies to Linus. He never bragged about it.



Do something worthy of bragging, like get fit. Then, be sure to be offended when someone compliments you on your weight loss and ask them how they thought you looked before you lost any weight.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Operation Z: The Death Throes of an Imperial Delusion
> 
> 
> Russia's military setbacks in Ukraine pose a new set of security challenges in Europe and beyond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rusi.org


DId you know that there is already a Ukraine War thread in the forum?

Of course you do.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> DId you know that there is already a Ukraine War thread in the forum?
> 
> Of course you do.


This thread is jumping all over the place. It long ago stopped being the covid only thread. Not that you would know since all you do is say LINK?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> DId you know that there is already a Ukraine War thread in the forum?
> 
> Of course you do.


I am going to give a visualization of how espola attempts to make a point on these forums.


----------



## baldref

Desert Hound said:


> This thread is jumping all over the place. It long ago stopped being the covid only thread. Not that you would know since all you do is say LINK?


You just got a ticket from the thread police.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> DId you know that there is already a Ukraine War thread in the forum?
> 
> Of course you do.


When you say this is the covid forum....with all various topics on it recently...it feels like this


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> I am going to give a visualization of how espola attempts to make a point on these forums.
> 
> View attachment 13403


We’ve drawn outside the lines in Dom’s  various site incarnations for over a decade now . . . it’s always been a bit of a traveling road show. It just took a few years before he attempted to contain us all in here (the kitchen in various forms).


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

Desert Hound said:


> And on the other front...Ukraine.
> 
> Some observations.
> 
> - It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.
> 
> They of course have not.
> 
> - Russian equipment is not as good as was thought. In large part the country relies on a few major contractors all of which are corrupt. In the US we have a variety of manufacturers responsible for producing planes. In Russia basically all planes are produced by one company. There is no competition, oversight, etc.
> 
> The failure rate of missiles in Ukraine has been shockingly high.
> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> That said they have enough munitions to blanket bomb/level cities.
> 
> - Russian logistics are terrible
> - Russian on the ground leadership is terrible. They still suffer from the fact they do not use NCO's in the fashion that the West does. By that it means allowing NCO's to make on the ground decisions as events unfold. Essentially their decision making is not nimble.
> - Planning...which involves leadership has been poor. They way they have moved armor around has left them very vulnerable to Ukrainian defenses. The Russians have not used infantry properly to help protect armor.
> - Maybe most surprising is how with all their planes, Russia still does not posses air superiority over the Ukrainians.
> - The bulk of their forces are made up of poorly trained conscripts. They serve 12 months. That is enough to get some basic training in, but not enough to match the professionalism of lets say US troops who have longer terms/more training. The lack of training is very apparent in terms of how badly the Russians have done in Ukraine.
> 
> All in all it has been rather eye opening in terms of how badly they have performed since the invasion.


Seems like a fair assessment. Ultimately Russia understands if it ever gets into a war with the West, they would have to go nuclear as they have no chance fighting a conventional war. Makes you wonder if them being so inadequate is a good thing.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> You are not that guy.
> 
> The article just shows these agencies bowed to political pressure. We know they certainly did as well under the Biden admin as it relates to the teachers union helping to adjust rules.
> 
> The whole process has been political from day one. Which is why so many things didn't make any sense.


There is no better evidence of this than Fauci saying the pandemic was over and Psaki saying that's not what he meant and then the next day Fauci saying the pandemic was not over.  He strayed from the left's narrative and he obviously got a talking to.  Another current example, is the pandemic being over for Title 42 but not for public transportation.


----------



## what-happened

Moderna files emergency authorization for kids' COVID-19 vaccine
					

Moderna starts its filing for an emergency use authorization of its COVID-19 vaccine in kids under 6 years.




					www.yahoo.com
				





Here we go..more sciency stuff.  Small trials, terrible first crack at getting dosing right, not regarding covid recovery in the age group,rising seroprevalence, etc...instead all about the dolla, dolla...

Let's not force the drug rug companies to accurately charaterize  the risk to a healthy rugrat from covid, often lower than a vaccinated, boosted adult.  But then again, if you do that you end up with egg on your face about school closures

What a scam.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> Seems like a fair assessment. Ultimately Russia understands if it ever gets into a war with the West, they would have to go nuclear as they have no chance fighting a conventional war. Makes you wonder if them being so inadequate is a good thing.


Yes exactly, does Russian incompetence put vlad closer to the button? He wants to go down in history . . .


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> There is no better evidence of this than Fauci saying the pandemic was over and Psaki saying that's not what he meant and then the next day Fauci saying the pandemic was not over.  He strayed from the left's narrative and he obviously got a talking to.  Another current example, is the pandemic being over for Title 42 but not for public transportation.


Just one more example of people wanting to turn complex problems into simple yes/no questions.

I don‘t think anyone paying attention actually thought Fauci meant covid is 100% gone.  They just had to clarify it because idiots on forums like this were going to deliberately misinterpret it.

Then, just like clockwork, the idiots here try to misinterpet the clarification.  Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes exactly, does Russian incompetence put vlad closer to the button? He wants to go down in history . . .


And the succession principle is a real issue for him. He hears the clock ticking.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Just one more example of people wanting to turn complex problems into simple yes/no questions.
> 
> I don‘t think anyone paying attention actually thought Fauci meant covid is 100% gone.  They just had to clarify it because idiots on forums like this were going to deliberately misinterpret it.
> 
> Then, just like clockwork, the idiots here try to misinterpet the clarification.  Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.


So I guess I shouldn't take people at their word.  I should have to analyze what they said to determine what they actually meant?  Fauci is the king of "flip flopping" usually dependent on who is interviewing him.  It wasn't like he was ambiguous when he said the pandemic was over, he was very direct and unequivocal.

When you start name calling you've lost the argument.


----------



## crush

baldref said:


> You just got a ticket from the thread police.


I have an arrest warrant out from all my tickets from the past.  I came on here 4 years ago and went all over the place in threads and the thread police let me know every time.  I got better but I'm still getting them tickets.  


what-happened said:


> Moderna files emergency authorization for kids' COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> Moderna starts its filing for an emergency use authorization of its COVID-19 vaccine in kids under 6 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here we go..more sciency stuff.  Small trials, terrible first crack at getting dosing right, not regarding covid recovery in the age group,rising seroprevalence, etc...instead all about the dolla, dolla...
> 
> Let's not force the drug rug companies to accurately charaterize  the risk to a healthy rugrat from covid, often lower than a vaccinated, boosted adult. But then again, if you do that you end up with egg on your face about school closures
> 
> What a scam.








						Moderna Files for Authorization of Its COVID-19 Vaccine in Young Children Six Months to Under Six Years of Age
					

Submission to Regulators Globally Is Based on Phase 2/3 Studies of mRNA-1273 in Young Children CAMBRIDGE, MA / ACCESSWIRE / April 28, 2022 / Moderna, Inc. (NASDAQ:MRNA), a biotechnology company pioneering messenger RNA (mRNA) therapeutics and vaccines, today announced that it has submitted a...




					investors.modernatx.com
				




"We are proud to share that we have initiated our EUA submission for authorization for our COVID-19 vaccine for young children," said Stéphane Bancel, Chief Executive Officer of Moderna.

I just heard the news on the radio just now.  Investors with stock and my pals wife are super stoked with this news.  I have to find these ads because their crazy to hear on the radio.  They have parent actors doing voice over with so much BS is triggers me.  I don't believe for one minute that normal parents sit around begging and praying to jab their baby.  Anyone on here willing to jab their grand kid at 8 months old?  Be honest and I won;t judge either way.  They want kids 6 months to 5 years old to take KidCOVE.  The KidCOVE study is being conducted in collaboration with the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and Dr. Fauci and the crew.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Just one more example of people wanting to turn complex problems into simple yes/no questions.
> 
> I don‘t think anyone paying attention actually thought Fauci meant covid is 100% gone.  They just had to clarify it because idiots on forums like this were going to deliberately misinterpret it.
> 
> Then, just like clockwork, the idiots here try to misinterpet the clarification.  Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.


So are you claiming that CDC, NIH and FDA policy hasn't been influenced by Trump, Biden, the teacher's unions, among others?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So I guess I shouldn't take people at their word.  I should have to analyze what they said to determine what they actually meant?  Fauci is the king of "flip flopping" usually dependent on who is interviewing him.  It wasn't like he was ambiguous when he said the pandemic was over, he was very direct and unequivocal.
> 
> When you start name calling you've lost the argument.


Just don’t over-interpret.  When someone says “pandemic phase is over“, don’t jump to the conclusion that covid disappeared.  The worst phase ended, not the whole thing.

They are telling you that the profile of the epidemic is shifting.  Old phase is over, new phase is starting.  You will see fewer mass hospitalizations, but more low level cases all over the place.  

Not that any of the above is news to you.  We’ve all been acting on that assumption for a while.  Most of us were ready to declare phase two back in October.  A tad early, but generally correct.


----------



## crush

Biden is watching you and so is big brother.  I knew something was wrong with the set up we were all born into.  Born free my ass....lol!!    



*Critics slam timing of Biden's 'ministry of truth' to police internet for 'disinformation'*


----------



## crush

@Hüsker Dü and please let Espola know this as well.  Elon said it best with this meme on Twitter just now.  This is also what I have been trying to tell you the last couple years.  I would say most of my lib pals are like Elon and have moved from being a lefty to now being a righty.  I am a switch hitter and will always go with the truth, no matter what.  I will never pick a party over my country.  That is a big no no and I think some of my fellow Americans made a big mistake and most did it to get paid.  It's sad man, it is sad day today.  My lib pals who have gone far lefty and woke, all talk one thing now; Russia and war and more war and now nukes are coming.  Even my right leaning military pals are talking nuke and www 3.  I pray for peace and I pray for divine intervention asap.  I am calling all Angels for all hands on deck.  I have never in my life have I heard so much war talk and money losses.  People are scared today.  Fear is not the solution.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Just don’t over-interpret.  When someone says “pandemic phase is over“, don’t jump to the conclusion that covid disappeared.  The worst phase ended, not the whole thing.
> 
> They are telling you that the profile of the epidemic is shifting.  Old phase is over, new phase is starting.  You will see fewer mass hospitalizations, but more low level cases all over the place.
> 
> Not that any of the above is news to you.  We’ve all been acting on that assumption for a while.  Most of us were ready to declare phase two back in October.  A tad early, but generally correct.


Who jumped to the conclusion that Covid disappeared?  Everyone knows that there are still cases and a few hospitalizations  He was effectively saying that it was endemic, like the flu, which happens to be the reality.  The administration didn't like that language so he had to retract the statement and call it a pandemic.  They still want the big, bad term of  "pandemic" so they have the big hammer to support continued mandates.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Who jumped to the conclusion that Covid disappeared?*  Everyone knows that there are still cases and a few hospitalizations*  He was effectively saying that it was endemic, *like the flu*, *which happens to be the reality.*  The administration didn't like that language so he had to retract the statement and call it a pandemic.  They still want the big, bad term of  "pandemic" so they have the big hammer to support continued mandates.


Go deeper bro but your getting warmer and I'm getting prouder of you.  Where is the flu btw?  I am all in with believing that health & wellness comes first over the jab and if your willing to walk away from meat and booze, you will be healthy and no need for a doctor.  If you want to jab + booster instead of health, a ok with me and no judgement.  Freedom is freedom.  I might ask a Q or two but that's just to get folks to think outside the health box.  I already have had warnings from folks in PMs that tell me I better watch out and I better STFU or else.  Again wat fly, getting fired from bosses like GG is happening everywhere.  People lost their business and are now homeless.  People are being shut out of life all because of saying no to what is really the seasonal flu shot.  Where did the flu go bro?  I want you to get off that fence, grab a shovel and get down that rabbit hole for a looksee asap.  I smell something rotten and money is the game of thrones.  Our lives mean nothing to those pulling the strings and they just want our blood and our time and our kids.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Just one more example of people wanting to turn complex problems into simple yes/no questions.
> 
> I don‘t think anyone paying attention actually thought Fauci meant covid is 100% gone.  They just had to clarify it because idiots on forums like this were going to deliberately misinterpret it.
> 
> Then, just like clockwork, the idiots here try to misinterpet the clarification.  Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.


So, this forum needs more name-calling? For someone who likes to constantly assert your moral and intellectual superiority, you sure are sensitive. Do you realize it comes off as insecurity?


----------



## crush

*Musk breaks silence on Biden disinformation board formation after Twitter buyout: 'Discomforting'*
*The disinformation board has been widely slammed by conservatives on Twitter*


----------



## crush

*Biden says students are like teachers' children when in classroom*
*Biden says of students, 'They're all our children'*

"They’re not someone else’s children, they’re our children," Biden said. "And they are the kite strings that literally lift our national ambitions aloft."

"You have heard me say it many times about our children, but it is true. They’re all our children. And the reason you are the teachers of the year is because you recognize that," Biden said. "They’re not somebody else’s children. They’re like yours when they’re in the classroom."


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Just don’t over-interpret.  When someone says “pandemic phase is over“, don’t jump to the conclusion that covid disappeared.  The worst phase ended, not the whole thing.
> 
> They are telling you that the profile of the epidemic is shifting.  Old phase is over, new phase is starting.  You will see fewer mass hospitalizations, but more low level cases all over the place.
> 
> Not that any of the above is news to you.  We’ve all been acting on that assumption for a while.  Most of us were ready to declare phase two back in October.  A tad early, but generally correct.


“Have seen fewer” and will continue to….NO ONE ever said the “end of the pandemic” = “Covid is gone”, that was your interpretation of what was said by the poster, not what he said.  

The collective moderate group of posters have ALWAYS said that Covid will be around for a very long time as it is a flu like virus, just like H1N1 and Swine Flu.  Still circulating just not having the same detrimental impact as it did in its “novel” stage.  

But it’s just like Fauci to change his story based on the political pressure or agenda he is following.  The list of examples is too long to type out (or care to type out).


----------



## MicPaPa

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, this forum needs more name-calling? For someone who likes to constantly assert your moral and intellectual superiority, you sure are sensitive. Do you realize it comes off as insecurity?


Did someone say name-calling!

He is a sterling example of someone who can dish it out but can't take it. Wasn't it just a few pages back he was riding high on his hobby horse lecturing others regarding name-calling.

Remember, they always accuse others of what they themselves do.

CC: @dad4skin


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> *Biden says students are like teachers' children when in classroom*
> *Biden says of students, 'They're all our children'*
> 
> "They’re not someone else’s children, they’re our children," Biden said. "And they are the kite strings that literally lift our national ambitions aloft."
> 
> "You have heard me say it many times about our children, but it is true. They’re all our children. And the reason you are the teachers of the year is because you recognize that," Biden said. "They’re not somebody else’s children. They’re like yours when they’re in the classroom."


this is a nice ad for the GOP this fall


----------



## MicPaPa

Brav520 said:


> this is a nice ad for the GOP this fall


It's a call to action at the School Board level.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> this is a nice ad for the GOP this fall


I know someone that started a  group home schooling kind of business.  It's a hybrid model that I really like.  Kid does school work at home and then meets with a real certified teacher with a masters degree and other kids in the area a few times a week to do group learning.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> I know someone that started a  group home schooling kind of business.  It's a hybrid model that I really like.  Kid does school work at home and then meets with a real certified teacher with a masters degree and other kids in the area a few times a week to do group learning.


My brother had his son do something similar to this last year in Boise when the schools were remote to start . He had a son who was starting kindergarten, so wasn’t going have his 5 year old learn on a laptop


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Just don’t over-interpret.  When someone says “pandemic phase is over“, don’t jump to the conclusion that covid disappeared.  The worst phase ended, not the whole thing.
> 
> They are telling you that the profile of the epidemic is shifting.  Old phase is over, new phase is starting.  You will see fewer mass hospitalizations, but more low level cases all over the place.
> 
> Not that any of the above is news to you.  We’ve all been acting on that assumption for a while.  Most of us were ready to declare phase two back in October.  A tad early, but generally correct.


It's quite interesting for academia types to push back on words that mean something and accuse others of panic, knee jerk reacton etc.  Endemic means something, pandemic means something.  Endemic happened, some would argue, sooner than OCT.  But that's like argueing tomato tomato.

Pandemic is scarier, pharma loves it, so do government types.  It's like if you read an MRI without having your doctor present.  Scary words that may just mean minor inflammation or fluid buildup.  Scary stuff.  Having "pandemic" in your brain makes you want to protect your family.  Government and Pharma are super good at this kind of stuff.  It's either create panic or create a safe, soft, furry world.  In this case, they are going for panic.  Pandemonumum, panic, variants, etc....


----------



## MicPaPa

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519771996606935041


----------



## crush

Keith Olbermann offers to help Disney-owned ESPN fight Sage Steele lawsuit
					

Keith Olbermann has offered to help ESPN management fight off a lawsuit with Sage Steele, who is suing the Disney-owned sports network over alleged free speech violations and a breach of contract.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## cheer4kids

It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


----------



## crush

cheer4kids said:


> It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


I got a few PMs thanking me for helping them see things they didn't see before.  I know one dad that stopped after the second jab and he said the meme's I used and articles I posted about whatt their putting in the shot helped him say, "no more jabs."  Another dad told me I inspired them for sticking for my freedom and willing to lose it all to protect my blood in my veins.  Ain't no one putting nothing in my blodd cheer 4 kids.  Never!!!  I have very good friend that is a Dr. and knows way more then anyone on here.  He and my wife told me to quit eating meat and no booze a few years ago.  I did that right before the Rona came to our shores.  We need to help the kids is why I come on here.  Now their trying to jab and boost 6 month our babies.  Life the last two years has been hard and so much disinformation and cheating going on.  This Vaccine Thread has helped me understand the jab better.  OC is 71.1% fully jabbed btw.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

cheer4kids said:


> It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


Hard to argue your point!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

cheer4kids said:


> It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


Minds changed? No. Minds lost? Yes, and it will get worse come mid-terms


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> And on the other front...Ukraine.
> 
> Some observations.
> 
> - It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.
> 
> They of course have not.
> 
> - Russian equipment is not as good as was thought. In large part the country relies on a few major contractors all of which are corrupt. In the US we have a variety of manufacturers responsible for producing planes. In Russia basically all planes are produced by one company. There is no competition, oversight, etc.
> 
> The failure rate of missiles in Ukraine has been shockingly high.
> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> That said they have enough munitions to blanket bomb/level cities.
> 
> - Russian logistics are terrible
> - Russian on the ground leadership is terrible. They still suffer from the fact they do not use NCO's in the fashion that the West does. By that it means allowing NCO's to make on the ground decisions as events unfold. Essentially their decision making is not nimble.
> - Planning...which involves leadership has been poor. They way they have moved armor around has left them very vulnerable to Ukrainian defenses. The Russians have not used infantry properly to help protect armor.
> - Maybe most surprising is how with all their planes, Russia still does not posses air superiority over the Ukrainians.
> - The bulk of their forces are made up of poorly trained conscripts. They serve 12 months. That is enough to get some basic training in, but not enough to match the professionalism of lets say US troops who have longer terms/more training. The lack of training is very apparent in terms of how badly the Russians have done in Ukraine.
> 
> All in all it has been rather eye opening in terms of how badly they have performed since the invasion.


Another interesting point is that the Ukraine reset their military after 2014 (legacy soviet) and brought in foreign (read Nato) personnel to train & reorg. They now operate much closer to how a Nato force does from a leadership and command (including delegated) perspective. Everything has aligned for them, including the Russian incompetence.


----------



## watfly

_"In a preliminary analysis of lab tests collected during the Omicron wave, Moderna says its vaccine efficacy against infection was 51% among children younger than 2 and 37% among children from 2 to 5 years old.  These efficacy estimates are similar to vaccine efficacy estimates in adults against Omicron after two doses," the company said in a statement."_

Hmm, I don't recall it being it being publicized that the efficacy for adults is only in the 37%-51% range (or less).

Just FYI, only 28% of those 5-11 have had at least one vaccine shot.  I suspected that there wouldn't be significant demand for child vaccinations.  That is clearly the case.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> _"In a preliminary analysis of lab tests collected during the Omicron wave, Moderna says its vaccine efficacy against infection was 51% among children younger than 2 and 37% among children from 2 to 5 years old.  These efficacy estimates are similar to vaccine efficacy estimates in adults against Omicron after two doses," the company said in a statement."_
> 
> Hmm, I don't recall it being it being publicized that the efficacy for adults is only in the 37%-51% range (or less).
> 
> Just FYI, only 28% of those 5-11 have had at least one vaccine shot.  I suspected that there wouldn't be significant demand for child vaccinations.  That is clearly the case.


Unless one is completely uninformed, there is no need to rush and get kids vaxxed. They have essentially zero risk. 

The data is out there...and yet we see parents concerned about when they can get kids vaxxed.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> Unless one is completely uninformed, there is no need to rush and get kids vaxxed. They have essentially zero risk.
> 
> The data is out there...and yet we see parents concerned about when they can get kids vaxxed.


It's quite laughable what's happening with science these days.  The FDA used to have standards.  I guess they are now using twitter for their non-evidence based medicine reasoning...


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Unless one is completely uninformed, there is no need to rush and get kids vaxxed. They have essentially zero risk.
> 
> The data is out there...and yet we see parents concerned about when they can get kids vaxxed.


I think those parents are just the vocal minority.  If 5-11 is only 28% partially vaccinated, I don't see 0-5 getting much past 10%.

My teen kids weren't opposed to vaccination and my daughter was required to for her community service work.  She had concerning side effects.  None of us are interested in boosters and my daughter's prospective college is not requiring boosters.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> It's quite laughable what's happening with science these days.  The FDA used to have standards.  I guess they are now using twitter for their non-evidence based medicine reasoning...


That should be fixed with Mayorkas's new Ministry of Truth department.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> It's quite laughable what's happening with science these days.  The FDA used to have standards.  I guess they are now using twitter for their non-evidence based medicine reasoning...


We all see what's happening.  I think most fair minded elk and sheep are like me, in shock with how deep this actually goes down the rabbit holes and how evil some folks are.  Talk about a trip...lol! Human trafficking is the # profit center on earth.  They slice up the human pie and use fellow humans to their gain.  I have a pink dot on my DL to let ER know they can have my organs.  I am happy to give them after I'm brain dead.  However, these humans are born to only be donors.  I wonder what that's like?  It's a very small but powerful group that had Dominion over us and they used humans as a ritual sacrifice.  Not no more.  The Big Guy is locked up and it's NOT JB.  Let them stab each other in the back first and then the good guys will come in to bring law & order.  We as a collective need to do something about it or the mighty rich few will force us to be their slaves again. They buy, bribe and blackmail people with sex and money and you can;t compete with that unless the game changes.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> That should be fixed with Mayorkas's new Ministry of Truth department.


forgot about that clown show.  Pfizer and co better watch out...


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> If 5-11 is only 28% partially vaccinated,


You guys keep on rolling, but just FYI I think its 5-11 35% one pop, 28% two pop.  





__





						Children and COVID-19 Vaccination Trends
					

Summary of data publicly reported by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention




					www.aap.org


----------



## MicPaPa

Imagine having voted for this.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519702400143134721


----------



## MicPaPa

cheer4kids said:


> It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


Change my mind.


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> Unless one is completely uninformed, there is no need to rush and get kids vaxxed. They have essentially zero risk.
> 
> The data is out there...and yet we see parents concerned about when they can get kids vaxxed.


There is a need for rushing to get kids vaxxed - it's called the parents that rushed to get their kids vaxxed


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> You guys keep on rolling, but just FYI I think its 5-11 35% one pop, 28% two pop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Children and COVID-19 Vaccination Trends
> 
> 
> Summary of data publicly reported by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aap.org


Thanks for clarifying.  My bad, I misheard what the Today Show said.  Anyway it seems like a distinction without difference.  My point still stands, not a huge demand for kids to get vaccinated.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Imagine having voted for this.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519702400143134721


It's only getting worse.  I actually feel sorry for him.  He's being propped up by those around him.  Jill Biden should be ashamed of herself, as a Dr. she should know better.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I think those parents are just the vocal minority.  If 5-11 is only 28% partially vaccinated, I don't see 0-5 getting much past 10%.
> 
> My teen kids weren't opposed to vaccination and my daughter was required to for her community service work.  She had concerning side effects.  None of us are interested in boosters and my daughter's prospective college is not requiring boosters.


My wife and other females we know had concerning side effects as well, led us not to get it for our teen daughter, will cross the public school/college bridge when/if required to. Wish her all the best in the future.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Thanks for clarifying.  My bad, I misheard what the Today Show said.  Anyway it seems like a distinction without difference.  My point still stands, not a huge demand for kids to get vaccinated.


It's about 6 months since the 5-11 roll out (last Nov as I recall).  The equivalent %s for older Americans for at least one pop with a much harder push are ~75% I think.  Interpret it as you will.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> My wife and other females we know had concerning side effects as well, led us not to get it for our teen daughter, will cross the public school/college bridge when/if required to. Wish her all the best in the future.


Thanks, the college process has been brutal, but in a "first world problems" sort of way.  I wish you all the best in the college process!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That should be fixed with Mayorkas's new Ministry of Truth department.


They far left just can't help shooting themselves in the foot - again and again. They continue to move farther and farther away from the true center and are too busy enjoying the smell of their own flatulence to notice.


----------



## soccersc

cheer4kids said:


> It is hard to believe the amount of time people have been spending on this thread. Has one person's mind been changed?


Good point! Maybe not change minds but it is funny to see some of those with strong opinions in the beginning have sort of faded away as more and more research is finally coming out


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> They far left just can't help shooting themselves in the foot - again and again. They continue to move farther and farther away from the true center and are too busy enjoying the smell of their own flatulence to notice.


Desperate people do desperate things.  The best way to combat misinformation is with open debate.  That's the biggest fundamental difference now between the left and right is their approach to free speech.  Left thinks what they perceive as "misinformation" should be silenced and, in some cases, punished.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> Good point! Maybe not change minds but it is funny to see some of those with strong opinions in the beginning have sort of faded away as more and more research is finally coming out


There is also an effect where the discussion-to the extent the term ever meaningfully applied-has virtually completely devolved to politicking. No additional research is being presented.  I do keep watching.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's about 6 months since the 5-11 roll out (last Nov as I recall).  The equivalent %s for older Americans for at least one pop with a much harder push are ~75% I think.  Interpret it as you will.


Which raises the question as to why a "harder push" was necessary, a vaccine should sell itself as opposed to be coerced.   It seems that your facts would suggest that there is not much "organic" demand for the vaccine.  At least that's how I interpret it.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Which raises the question as to why a "harder push" was necessary, a vaccine should sell itself as opposed to be coerced.   It seems that your facts would suggest that there is not much "organic" demand for the vaccine.  At least that's how I interpret it.


Demand is largely a function of policy and that is not something I'm interested in the context of this thread.  There is no point.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Desperate people do desperate things.  The best way to combat misinformation is with open debate.  That's the biggest fundamental difference now between the left and right is their approach to free speech.  Left thinks what they perceive as "misinformation" should be silenced and, in some cases, punished.


Also, authoritarian measures push people away and to the other extreme. It is divisive plank to add to their platform but some people just can't live with others having a different perspective. I'm just a bit shocked after all the self-inflicted harm about "misinformation" that this is the road they are taking.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Demand is largely a function of policy and that is not something I'm interested in the context of this thread.  There is no point.


Demand is actually mostly a function of the quality of a product.  Of course, pet rocks were pretty popular for a time period in the 70's, so FOMO plays a roll too.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Demand is actually mostly a function of the quality of a product.  Of course, pet rocks were pretty popular for a time period in the 70's, so FOMO plays a roll too.


100%.  A good product sells itself.  I can count 4 people I know who got clots in their blood.  All of them are on blood thinner and one got a widow attack.  Also know two people that died of natural causes under 50 years old and over 5 people who got fired for saying no to this BS.


----------



## MicPaPa

DeSantis was right. Can't imagine currently having kids in CA public elementary schools.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519537364875440128


----------



## MicPaPa

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> There is also an effect where the discussion-to the extent the term ever meaningfully applied-has virtually completely devolved to politicking. No additional research is being presented.  I do keep watching.


Where were you the past couple years?

Heavy politicking began on day one of the pandemic and ramped up for the election. I'd say much needed scientific and medical research was either not conducted or suppressed or both because of politics - hell, just follow the life cycle of the death and case number counters that were plastered all over the news 24/7.....then one day just disappeared.

I'm sorry, the science and medical communities drained all their credibility with this one.


----------



## watfly

MicPaPa said:


> Where were you the past couple years?
> 
> Heavy politicking began on day one of the pandemic and ramped up for the election. I'd say much needed scientific and medical research was either not conducted or suppressed or both because of politics - hell, just follow the life cycle of the death and case number counters that were plastered all over the news 24/7.....then one day just disappeared.
> 
> I'm sorry, the science and medical communities drained all their credibility with this one.


There was also this rush by "experts" to be relevant which resulted in speculative opinions and then each side would cherry pick the opinions that supported their position (guilty as charged).   Some experts where inherently biased while some offered their opinions in good faith but just turned out to be wrong.  Arrogance played a roll in a lot of it.  There was an "ivory tower" element to a lot of the guidance.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Demand is actually mostly a function of the quality of a product.  Of course, pet rocks were pretty popular for a time period in the 70's, so FOMO plays a roll too.


Partly.  It's been interesting to me to learn more with how disinfo campaigns get structured and then, through a limited number of venues, injected into social media.  Reading about that and then seeing related meme showing up on, for example, this site.  So I do not completely buy your argument.  This form of negative advertising works and, as a bonus for the money, achieves longer term purposes. 

I have also criticized the scientific community, which in reality is largely divorced-and should be divorced-from policy, for getting caught flatfooted in the new information warfare.  Some of the new kids are learning to fight back, and it is good to see.  One vaccine researcher in particular got linked here a couple of times (not by me).  She got doxxed somewhere between delta and omicron and her family was threatened.  But she has kept going.  She fights with flowers, very effectively.


----------



## baldref

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> the scientific community, which in reality is largely divorced-and should be divorced-from policy,


Fact check. False


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Partly.  It's been interesting to me to learn more with how disinfo campaigns get structured and then, through a limited number of venues, injected into social media.  Reading about that and then seeing related meme showing up on, for example, this site.  So I do not completely buy your argument.  This form of negative advertising works and, as a bonus for the money, achieves longer term purposes.
> 
> I have also criticized the scientific community, which in reality is largely divorced-and should be divorced-from policy, for getting caught flatfooted in the new information warfare.  Some of the new kids are learning to fight back, and it is good to see.  One vaccine researcher in particular got linked here a couple of times (not by me).  She got doxxed somewhere between delta and omicron and her family was threatened.  But she has kept going.  She fights with flowers, very effectively.


Negative advertising and misinformation works, but not in the long term.  The truth eventually prevails over time as a result of reality, although it has taken a lot longer in the case of Covid.  It should obvious to all, but the most myopic or fearful, that the costs of the policies have far outweighed the benefits and we may have only seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of costs.  My only caveat to that would be if Covid infection has some devastating impact to individuals that shows up later, which doesn't seem likely, but is not impossible and is of no consolation to the rare long-haulers.

No one should be doxxed or canceled for their opinions, other than for promoting violence or crime.  Nor should we have a selective group that determines what is the truth for the masses.

It's become a pejorative term for whatever reason, but I consider myself a free speech absolutist.  Misinformation is free speech, but that's why we have debate and free speech to combat it.  Free speech is a two street, but many are trying to turn into a one way straight. (See Twitter for example). Now while I believe you have the right to see whatever you want, you also have a responsibility not to say whatever you want in a civil society.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Left thinks what they perceive as "misinformation" should be silenced and, in some cases, punished.


And that is a concerning problem. 

That is why they are getting the vapors about Musk and Twitter.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Also, authoritarian measures push people away and to the other extreme. It is divisive plank to add to their platform but some people just can't live with others having a different perspective. I'm just a bit shocked after all the self-inflicted harm about "misinformation" that this is the road they are taking.


I think its called "doubling down" they can't flip and make a difference before November so it might be there only option.  As I've said before Trump was a knee jerk reaction to Obama, and Biden was a knee jerk reaction to Trump.  Biden is an unmitigated disaster, but hey, at least its not Trump, or that's how the left rationalizes it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Demand is largely a function of policy and that is not something I'm interested in the context of this thread.  There is no point.





EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Partly.


The belief that consumer demand or decisions, in general, are only "partly" being a function of free will/thought opens the door for authoritarianism in that it implies people must be protected from themselves. It is the justification behind the Ministry of Truth.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

MicPaPa said:


> Where were you the past couple years?
> 
> I'd say much needed scientific and medical research was either not conducted or suppressed or both because of politics - h


Well, part of the time reading posts on this thread.  Some of it related to soccer.

As I recall going along one of the things people pointed to on this thread as not being investigated was the durability of infection-acquired vs vaccination-acquired immunity.  There was a period of underpowered studies examining humoral immunity that were linked here and people initially jumped up and down and made a big fuss over them. People eventually lost focus on that, but the data has continued to come in.  It now appears individual variation in the antibody component of the immune response is much bigger than any difference in the kinetics of antibody decline. There were also claims about vaccination vs infection in preventing disease and long term cellular immunity not being investigated.  Those are longer term studies but some are now completed and probably have not been linked here.  The upshot is that both can provide durable long term immunity, which is probably the most important thing going forward, at least in terms of immune system vs virus.  Only thing is that the durability of immune memory following infection seems to correspond with severity of infection. 

If its something else vaccine science related that you think is being suppressed I can look it up cause there is lots of stuff coming all the time.


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> You should ask this guy
> View attachment 13398











						He Was 5'7". After Surgery, He’ll Be 5'10".
					

Originally designed to correct mismatched length in legs, limb-lengthening surgery has become more popular for men looking to permanently increase their height.




					www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> The belief that consumer demand or decisions, in general, are only "partly" being a function of free will/thought opens the door for authoritarianism in that it implies people must be protected from themselves. It is the justification behind the Ministry of Truth.


Too make the claim of intelligent decisions with respect to adult covid vaccine refusal is a bit of a stretch.

There have been far too many hospitalizations for that to be seen as a well informed conscious choice.  Misinformation is a better description.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Too make the claim of intelligent decisions with respect to adult covid vaccine refusal is a bit of a stretch.
> 
> There have been far too many hospitalizations for that to be seen as a well informed conscious choice.  Misinformation is a better description.


The problem isn't misinformation, it's mistrust.

People regularly make emotional decisions instead of well-informed decisions. A primary cause is a dislike and/or distrust of the messenger. Whatever an unliked/untrusted messenger says, they will do the opposite. People will search for a reason, any reason, to do the opposite. We see many examples of this with Trump or Hillary Clinton. The misinformation will present itself if enough people don't want to believe a message. Again, it's not the misinformation, it's the mistrust that drives this behavior. Stupidity such as the Ministry of Truth will only make it worse. You can't regulate emotional thinking into rational action. The more centralized our governing becomes, the more we'll see "misinformation" issues among individuals that are not led by peers but by "elites" and who feel more and more removed from the decision-making processes.

Elites are going to have to get over that not everyone will bow down to their perceived intellectual and moral superiority. Being "right" doesn't matter if enough people think otherwise. Responding with authoritarian edicts will only increase the divide. Make your case and move on - and get over yourselves.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> The problem isn't misinformation, it's mistrust.
> 
> People regularly make emotional decisions instead of well-informed decisions. A primary cause is a dislike and/or distrust of the messenger. Whatever an unliked/untrusted messenger says, they will do the opposite. People will search for a reason, any reason, to do the opposite. We see many examples of this with Trump or Hillary Clinton. The misinformation will present itself if enough people don't want to believe a message. Again, it's not the misinformation, it's the mistrust that drives this behavior. Stupidity such as the Ministry of Truth will only make it worse. You can't regulate emotional thinking into rational action. The more centralized our governing becomes, the more we'll see "misinformation" issues among individuals that are not led by peers but by "elites" and who feel more and more removed from the decision-making processes.
> 
> Elites are going to have to get over that not everyone will bow down to their perceived intellectual and moral superiority. Being "right" doesn't matter if enough people think otherwise. Responding with authoritarian edicts will only increase the divide. Make your case and move on - and get over yourselves.


Where, in all of that, do you have any responsibility to get your facts straight?

The way you tell it, every time I fall some for line of bull shit, all I have to do is say “flawed messenger” and my own actions are no longer my fault.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Where, in all of that, do you have any responsibility to get your facts straight?
> 
> The way you tell it, every time I fall some for line of bull shit, all I have to do is say “flawed messenger” and my own actions are no longer my fault.


Aka “fake news” . . . “If it’s bad I just call it fake!”


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Too make the claim of *intelligent decisions* with respect to adult covid vaccine refusal is a bit of a stretch.
> 
> There have been far too many hospitalizations for that to be seen as a well informed conscious choice.  Misinformation is a better description.


I was 100% intelligent about saying no to covid vaccine.  My best pal said, "yes" to jab because of fear ((losing his job and house)) and now he has blood clots and is on blood thinner and will live everyday wondering if another clot is roaming through his blood.  My other friends sister said "no" to vaccine but became emotional from the peer pressure from dads and brothers like you.  She is now dead and the brother who preached like you will not come out of his depression or his room.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Where, in all of that, *do you have any responsibility to get your facts straight?*
> 
> The way you tell it, every time I fall some for line of bull shit, all I have to do is say “flawed messenger” and my own actions are no longer my fault.


Early on in this plan to destroy our country, the hospitals counted all deaths as Covid deaths if they had the flu with their gun shot to the head.  In OC, we all remember a motorcyclist that was brain dead from being killed by a car, was counted as Covid death.  All this to get paid triple and ruin our country.  So many teachers & Docs are in for the take too.  So sad.  Great job math teacher preaching all the way to the end.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Hey Dad, *"facts are stubborn things.  They cannot be altered by our wishes, our inclinations or the dictates of our passion."*
John Adams said this years ago.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Where, in all of that, do you have any responsibility to get your facts straight?
> 
> The way you tell it, every time I fall some for line of bull shit, all I have to do is say “flawed messenger” and my own actions are no longer my fault.


Put your big boy pants on and use all that intellect and moral superiority to figure out whether a message and/or the messenger is flawed or not. Of course, you already do it but you are upset that more people don't come to your conclusion. That's really what your complaint is about. Maybe you need to reconsider your dismissal of our leaders' hypocrisy and their dismissal of segments of our population. It matters. Lack of trust in both political leadership and in the media that curates our news drives misinformation. That's where the seeds are planted. The Ministry of Truth is a partisan joke. It hacks at the leaves of the problem while strengthening the root.


----------



## crush

For those who need to eat crow this morning.  Trust me you all, I have had plenty of crow over my years of life on earth and ketchup helps.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Put your big boy pants on and use all that intellect and moral superiority to figure out whether a message and/or the messenger is flawed or not. Of course, you already do it but you are upset that more people don't come to your conclusion. That's really what your complaint is about. Maybe you need to reconsider your dismissal of our leaders' hypocrisy and their dismissal of segments of our population. It matters. Lack of trust in both political leadership and in the media that curates our news drives misinformation. That's where the seeds are planted. The Ministry of Truth is a partisan joke. It hacks at the leaves of the problem while strengthening the root.


He's getting schooled by unschooled fools like me.....lol


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Put your big boy pants on and use all that intellect and moral superiority to figure out whether a message and/or the messenger is flawed or not. Of course, you already do it but you are upset that more people don't come to your conclusion. That's really what your complaint is about. Maybe you need to reconsider your dismissal of our leaders' hypocrisy and their dismissal of segments of our population. It matters. Lack of trust in both political leadership and in the media that curates our news drives misinformation. That's where the seeds are planted. The Ministry of Truth is a partisan joke. It hacks at the leaves of the problem while strengthening the root.


Ok.  Messenger has at least one flaw.  Fauci took off his mask at a baseball game.

Now why does that mean I should refuse to do my part to help protect my neighbors?


----------



## crush

"I think it's very important we have emergencies here (U.S.).  We need to have the Covid money ((now!!!)).  Time is of the essences because we need the Ukraine money ((now!!)), we need the Covid money, so I hope we can do that.  This is called legislation, we're legislating  & we'll have to comes to terms with how we do that."  

Her own streets are now filled with homeless people who need food and shelter.  We need to help these folks asap first before we send $33,000,000,000 to Ukraine.  The Streets of San Francisco has turned into place where you can take a dump on the street and the city will come by and pick it up and wash it down for you.


----------



## crush

Have a great day you guys, I'm going sailing and spear fishing.  Listen to this song and all the songs I post.  They all have meaning to life and dreams we should all be able to participate in.  We can all co-create amazing life together on this planet.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> "I think it's very important we have emergencies here (U.S.).  We need to have the Covid money ((now!!!)).  Time is of the essences because we need the Ukraine money ((now!!)), we need the Covid money, so I hope we can do that.  This is called legislation, we're legislating  & we'll have to comes to terms with how we do that."
> 
> Her own streets are now filled with homeless people who need food and shelter.  We need to help these folks asap first before we send $33,000,000,000 to Ukraine.  The Streets of San Francisco has turned into place where you can take a dump on the street and the city will come by and pick it up and wash it down for you.


Your argument applies even better in 1939.  Why were we sending $31,000,000,000 to Britain when our own people were in the middle of the great depression?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Now why does that mean I should refuse to do my part to help protect my neighbors?


I feel like this proves my point. This is your definition of what others should be doing. Some people don't believe what you believe and you want to force them to do as you believe they should. You and I are not in agreement about the effectiveness of mask mandates. So, tell me, exactly, what disinformation is causing me to think differently about mask mandates than you? Or, could it be that something else is at work here?


----------



## Lion Eyes

*The White House is calling on Congress to approve $33 billion in additional funding, and is also seeking to seize the assets of Russian oligarchs and send the proceeds to Ukraine.*


Biden’s new funding request includes $20 billion in military assistance for Ukraine, $8.5 billion in economic assistance and $3 billion in humanitarian aid, among other pots of money.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I feel like this proves my point. This is your definition of what others should be doing. Some people don't believe what you believe and you want to force them to do as you believe they should. You and I are not in agreement about the effectiveness of mask mandates. So, tell me, exactly, what disinformation is causing me to think differently about mask mandates than you? Or, could it be that something else is at work here?


This started with claims that people avoid vaccines because they aren’t very good.  I argued that the vaccine seems to do fine, and that the problem is misinformation.

Now you want to change the topic to mask mandates.  Not even masks.  You insist on changing the topic to _mandates_.

Let’s stay on topic.  Start with vaccines.  Are you truly unaware of anyone posting anti-vaccine misinformation?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This started with claims that people avoid vaccines because they aren’t very good.  I argued that the vaccine seems to do fine, and that the problem is misinformation.
> 
> Now you want to change the topic to mask mandates.  Not even masks.  You insist on changing the topic to _mandates_.
> 
> Let’s stay on topic.  Start with vaccines.  Are you truly unaware of anyone posting anti-vaccine misinformation?


Stay on topic? That's funny (Am I allowed to say that?). Go back a few hundred pages and ask me that question again.

I'm (still) saying that the misinformation isn't the problem - vaccine or mask. Individual bias is driving decisions. Minds are made up. "Anything Trump says is BS", or "Anything the dems say is BS", etc. The sad thing is that each group has real events to point to that "validate" these feelings. You'd like to think that if people just understood what you understand, things would be different and they don't understand it because of misinformation. I don't believe that's the case. Everyone will decide who they want to listen to and it's most often those who share their bias.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stay on topic? That's funny (Am I allowed to say that?). Go back a few hundred pages and ask me that question again.
> 
> I'm (still) saying that the misinformation isn't the problem - vaccine or mask. Individual bias is driving decisions. Minds are made up. "Anything Trump says is BS", or "Anything the dems say is BS", etc. The sad thing is that each group has real events to point to that "validate" these feelings. You'd like to think that if people just understood what you understand, things would be different and they don't understand it because of misinformation. I don't believe that's the case. Everyone will decide who they want to listen to and it's most often those who share their bias.


What we all have today is experience of the last two years to look at and when you have experience, you can see the truth better or deny the truth. We see the truth ministers out in force now preaching their truth.  Dad wanted to destroy fellow Americans lives if they didn't obey getting the jab + all the boosters.  Mask as well indoors or else and insane rules for mom and pop food place or small business.  I said no way to jab and I still feel that way.  I will say if I saw the jab as a positive for others and all that, I would have got the jab.  I decided to wait it out and go all healthy.  My pal's wife sells pharma and will have another record year and she is for everyone taking the jabs, including 6 month old baby to get the jabs.  I am against the jab for all kids and all healthy people and all those who are ready to take their health to the next level.  If you want it, go get it, I just don; think this was done in righteousness.  It's my body and I decide what goes into my blood.  My only issue is firing people for saying no.  I challenged that position the whole time.  I tell people to eat healthy, organic fruits and veggies.  No beyond meat that Bill is making in his labs.  I hope it's ok for me to say don't eat meat and don;t drink booze.  Booze will give you the belly gut and that's not good fighting off poison and chemicals.  I also think where two fight, no one is right.  I take no sides in this war.  $33,000,000,000 off to help Joe and Hunters crew is not good.  We have our peeps in LA and SF needing our help.  These are peoples kids that are down and out even in Beverly Hills.  They need food, shelter, clothing and something to do.  We need to help our peeps first is what I'm trying to say.  I see the truth clearly and selfishness, spying, cheating, lying, bribes and blackmail rule the planet.  It's sad.  Heading to Venice brother.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stay on topic? That's funny (Am I allowed to say that?). Go back a few hundred pages and ask me that question again.
> 
> I'm (still) saying that the misinformation isn't the problem - vaccine or mask. Individual bias is driving decisions. Minds are made up. "Anything Trump says is BS", or "Anything the dems say is BS", etc. The sad thing is that each group has real events to point to that "validate" these feelings. You'd like to think that if people just understood what you understand, things would be different and they don't understand it because of misinformation. I don't believe that's the case. Everyone will decide who they want to listen to and it's most often those who share their bias.


“Individual bias” based on? . . . round and round we go.


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> This started with claims that people avoid vaccines because they aren’t very good.  I argued that the vaccine seems to do fine, and that the problem is misinformation.
> 
> Now you want to change the topic to mask mandates.  Not even masks.  You insist on changing the topic to _mandates_.
> 
> Let’s stay on topic.  Start with vaccines.  Are you truly unaware of anyone posting anti-vaccine misinformation?


...the problem is one of moving the goal post and changing definitions...ok, you want to start with vaccines...which CDC definition of vaccine, pre-pandemic or post-pandemic?

...also, I see you are still using the hate thy neighbor mask trope...so, if you believe masks work, then the choice of others would be irrelevant, right? And if you must, wear a second one for anyone not wearing one in your presence...win-win.

...bottom line, it's a matter of freedom and choice...especially when all institutions of governance and information lost most if not all credibility.


----------



## met61

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Individual bias” based on? . . . round and round we go.


...Freedom.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stay on topic? That's funny (Am I allowed to say that?). Go back a few hundred pages and ask me that question again.
> 
> I'm (still) saying that the misinformation isn't the problem - vaccine or mask. Individual bias is driving decisions. Minds are made up. "Anything Trump says is BS", or "Anything the dems say is BS", etc. The sad thing is that each group has real events to point to that "validate" these feelings. You'd like to think that if people just understood what you understand, things would be different and they don't understand it because of misinformation. I don't believe that's the case. Everyone will decide who they want to listen to and it's most often those who share their bias.


Minds are made up, to be sure.

I just don’t grant it the equivalence that you do.  These are basic questions of fact, not politics.  Masks and vaccines of any given type either do or do not reduce transmission in specific contexts.  You can measure it.  And adding quotes to the word “expert” does not change the answer to something more to your liking.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> I just don’t grant it the equivalence that you do.


In the big picture, that's irrelevant. You have the misguided idea that suppressing theories that you don't believe are based in fact will help remedy this. Again, if enough people believe, it doesn't matter and the tighter you squeeze, the more you will push people away from your facts.



dad4 said:


> And adding quotes to the word “expert” does not change the answer to something more to your liking.


Nor does removing the quotes change it to something more to your liking.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> This started with claims that people avoid vaccines because they aren’t very good.  I argued that the vaccine seems to do fine, and that the problem is misinformation.


So, what should we have done earlier in the pandemic about all those who way overestimated their risk and the risk by age group? Where was the "misinformation" driving that?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> The problem isn't misinformation, it's mistrust.
> 
> People regularly make emotional decisions instead of well-informed decisions. A primary cause is a dislike and/or distrust of the messenger. Whatever an unliked/untrusted messenger says, they will do the opposite. People will search for a reason, any reason, to do the opposite. We see many examples of this with Trump or Hillary Clinton. The misinformation will present itself if enough people don't want to believe a message. Again, it's not the misinformation, it's the mistrust that drives this behavior. Stupidity such as the Ministry of Truth will only make it worse. You can't regulate emotional thinking into rational action. The more centralized our governing becomes, the more we'll see "misinformation" issues among individuals that are not led by peers but by "elites" and who feel more and more removed from the decision-making processes.
> 
> Elites are going to have to get over that not everyone will bow down to their perceived intellectual and moral superiority. Being "right" doesn't matter if enough people think otherwise. Responding with authoritarian edicts will only increase the divide. Make your case and move on - and get over yourselves.


I'd argue that its really not the misinformation that most concerns the left and the covid fearful, its the "mis-conclusions".  The pro-mandate group assumes people reached a decision not to get a vaccination based on mis-information, but that's often not the case.  Given the same information people reach difference conclusions based on a number of factors including individual risk tolerances.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> I'd argue that its really not the misinformation that most concerns the left and the covid fearful, its the "mis-conclusions".  The pro-mandate group assumes people reached a decision not to get a vaccination based on mis-information, but that's often not the case.  Given the same information people reach difference conclusions based on a number of factors including individual risk tolerances.


Just ask Japan…..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> In the big picture, that's irrelevant. You have the misguided idea that suppressing theories that you don't believe are based in fact will help remedy this. Again, if enough people believe, it doesn't matter and the tighter you squeeze, the more you will push people away from your facts.
> 
> 
> Nor does removing the quotes change it to something more to your liking.


.  *There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics*


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, what should we have done earlier in the pandemic about all those who way overestimated their risk and the risk by age group? Where was the "misinformation" driving that?


That misinformation was from NYT.

I thought we already agreed on that.


----------



## crush

Well fellas, I just got back from Venice.  First off, I met some amazing people who love their city and are out trying to make a difference.  Homelessness and drug abuse is bad and I mean real bad and I was shocked to see what I see this evening with me eyes.  It's bad.  I met some locals and they can't find cops to hire.  Anyway, we meet new people who come out to help and I met a dad who is a professional camera man and part time stunt man in Hollywood.  He's moving to Florence, AZ in two weeks. I asked him why the move to AZ and he said 100%, "their trying to force me to jab my 7 year old son and I don't want to fight people who can't respect our beliefs."  So he will go where he's free and his son is not forced to jab to get free education.  So many people are leaving this State.  Lastly, crime is getting really bad as well.  Mask or no mask, LA looks gnarly.  Good night you guys.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Someone's neck of the woods isn't doing too well. I'm surprised to see CNN do this story.









						New Yorkers don't feel safe at home anymore | CNN
					

It's a sweltering sunny day in New York City, but Dana Aber stands on the Times Square-42 Street subway platform in a heavy leather Jacket. "I thought maybe it would be just a little bit better protection than a thin coat, in case I got shot," she told CNN.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

Look what Catturd the cat said about the new Minister of Truth.  

*"I don't give AF what Biden's unconstitutional Ministry Of Truth says.*
*
I'll say what I want, when I want, and how I want.

It's called the 1st amendment.
*
*Talk to the paw, commies."*


----------



## crush

*Rachel Levine says pediatricians all agree on importance of 'gender-affirming care' for children*

* "there is no argument" *about "gender-affirming care" among pediatricians and doctors who specialize in adolescents.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'd argue that its really not the misinformation that most concerns the left and the covid fearful, its the "mis-conclusions".  The pro-mandate group assumes people reached a decision not to get a vaccination based on mis-information, but that's often not the case.  Given the same information people reach difference conclusions based on a number of factors including individual risk tolerances.


The uncaring nature of some people is a major concern.


----------



## Lion Eyes

For some, freedom of choice is "my way or the highway".


----------



## dad4

Lion Eyes said:


> For some, freedom of choice is "my way or the highway".


That statement itself can be read either way.

Are we talking about people being forced into masks and vaccines, or are we talking about people being forced to accept higher risk public spaces?

We even have matching fake alternatives.  Team virus says "stay at home if you're scared of the virus."  Team panic says "stay at home if you're scared of the jab.".


----------



## Lion Eyes

dad4 said:


> That statement itself can be read either way.
> 
> Are we talking about people being forced into masks and vaccines, or are we talking about people being forced to accept higher risk public spaces?
> 
> We even have matching fake alternatives.  Team virus says "stay at home if you're scared of the virus."  Team panic says "stay at home if you're scared of the jab.".


I know people on both sides of the vaccine.
I know of one who died after having received the vaccine.
I know of one who died after deciding not to get the vaccine.
We all had the vaccine discussion and made a decision.
Decisions were made with what was thought best.
I miss them both...


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> The uncaring nature of some people is a major concern.


Translation: Anyone who doesn't see it my way is uncaring.

Yawn!


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> This started with claims that people avoid vaccines because they aren’t very good.  I argued that the vaccine seems to do fine, and that the problem is misinformation.
> 
> Now you want to change the topic to mask mandates.  Not even masks.  You insist on changing the topic to _mandates_.
> 
> Let’s stay on topic.  Start with vaccines.  Are you truly unaware of anyone posting anti-vaccine misinformation?


For the better part of the first year, the pandemic was loudly and relentlessly used as a political cudgel.  (NOTE: Exception BLM riots)

Where might this fit into your "misinformation" narrative?


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> Translation: Anyone who doesn't see it my way is uncaring.
> 
> Yawn!


@Hüsker Dü and others.  If you want to help care for the homeless in LA, PM me and I will send you information on how you can help.  Cash is king so if you have any extra laying around collecting nothing in the bank, send it our way and you will get a very nice ROI in your heart.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> .  *There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics*


There are *four* kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and *@Fister Du*

*There, fixed it for you.*

*


----------



## crush

*Price of diesel hits all-time high, straining the trucking industry*
*A gallon of diesel hit $5.296 on Sunday, according to AAA*

I paid $6.89


----------



## Lion Eyes

*Price of diesel hits all-time high, straining the trucking industry*
*A gallon of diesel hit $5.296 on Sunday, according to AAA*
[/QUOTE]


----------



## dad4

MicPaPa said:


> For the better part of the first year, the pandemic was loudly and relentlessly used as a political cudgel.  (NOTE: Exception BLM riots)
> 
> Where might this fit into your "misinformation" narrative?


Blm riots?  Public health officials mostly muted themselves.  As soon as one side starts calling the other racist, don't expect smart people to do any more than keep their heads down.

Which is why you saw talking heads trying to come up with some reason that a giant outdoor motorcycle rally is a super spreader event but a giant outdoor public march is not.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Ok.  Messenger has at least one flaw.  Fauci took off his mask at a baseball game.
> 
> Now why does that mean I should refuse to do my part to help protect my neighbors?


Are you neighbors vaccinated?


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> Are you neighbors vaccinated?


If masks works, and the neighbors are worried, they just have to wear a mask. 

The effectiveness of their masks is not dependent upon the use of masks by others.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> If masks works, and the neighbors are worried, they just have to wear a mask.
> 
> The effectiveness of their masks is not dependent upon the use of masks by others.


----------



## crush

We love you so much.  You can sleep in the parking lot and do your drugs right here. Free fentanyl, free pipes and free food, just as long as you get the jab, wear a mask and vote for us.  Folks like Dad will feel safe because his neighbors wear mask.  This is how rich people treat poor people btw.


----------



## what-happened

Desert Hound said:


> If masks works, and the neighbors are worried, they just have to wear a mask.
> 
> The effectiveness of their masks is not dependent upon the use of masks by others.


that is my point.


----------



## crush

*Poop Patrol Inc is now hiring for positions in San Francisco and Seattle.  Send resume to Hüsker Dü@pooppatrol.shit   Also, want to be your own boss? Franchise opportunities available now in the Los Angeles and Phoenix area.  Call (666) POO-POOP for more information.*




*Now Hiring!!!*


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> that is my point.


I know.


----------



## crush

*Mike Rowe on gas prices crushing truckers: 'It's happening in real time'*
*The trucking industry grapples with inflation as diesel prices hit an all-time high*

MIKE ROWE:_ The ones I know aren't. The guys I know in this business... [A] guy said to me the other day, it's like... falling down the stairs in slow motion... We know it's coming. We're watching it happen. It's happening in real time, and it's not just diesel. It's not just gasoline... If you bring it back to food, and tonight's episode is all about beef production in this country, and it's an eye-opener. But you have to talk about fertilizer too... There's no food without fertilizer in this country. The cost of fertilizer is hundreds, hundreds of percent higher than it was. When you combine that with the cost of energy, the average person has now really gotten the memo, but not from the gas pump, from a restaurant, a steak. *The cost of a steak is almost two times what it was six, seven months ago. *_


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> If masks works, and the neighbors are worried, they just have to wear a mask.
> 
> The effectiveness of their masks is not dependent upon the use of masks by others.


Most epidemiologists believe you are wrong in your assessment.  Masks work better as source control than as PPE.

I know this will not at all reduce the frequency with which you repeat yourself on this point.  Don’t forget to tell us that some non-zero number is actually zero.


----------



## watfly

This is why Fauci has zero credibility.  Won't go to Correspondents Dinner because its unsafe, but has no problem hobnobbing at the pre-parties.

I can't stand Trevor Noah but his standup at the dinner was pretty funny and he didn't pull any punches with either party.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Most epidemiologists believe you are wrong in your assessment.  Masks work better as source control than as PPE.
> 
> I know this will not at all reduce the frequency with which you repeat yourself on this point.  Don’t forget to tell us that some non-zero number is actually zero.


Most?  20%, 50%, 75%?  they got plenty wrong early on.  remember when "most" were saying no masks, just for health workers?  Most "epidemiologists" were concerend about surface spread and concered that masks would help to spread the virus.  

The novel virus just did it's thing...whatever we threw at it, it just did its thing, kinda like it's doing it's thing again in china.  masking not working out so well there.  It's unfortunate that we don't really know what's goin go on over there.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Most epidemiologists believe you are wrong in your assessment. Masks work better as source control than as PPE.


Most epidemiologists know the studies have long shown that masks don't stop respiratory viruses. 

They are also aware that in the past 2 yrs there have been no studies contradicting what has been known now for decades.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> Most?  20%, 50%, 75%?  they got plenty wrong early on.  remember when "most" were saying no masks, just for health workers?  Most "epidemiologists" were concerend about surface spread and concered that masks would help to spread the virus.
> 
> The novel virus just did it's thing...whatever we threw at it, it just did its thing, kinda like it's doing it's thing again in china.  masking not working out so well there.  It's unfortunate that we don't really know what's goin go on over there.


Sure.  They told us not to buy masks in March 2020.  This was because they didn‘t want selfish jerks buying up the surgical and N95 masks that were needed for doctors and nurses.

Sadly, some people are like that.  If you tell them N95 masks work, the first thing they do is buy a 100 pack to make sure they have enough for themselves.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Sure.  They told us not to buy masks in March 2020.  This was because they didn‘t want selfish jerks buying up the surgical and N95 masks that were needed for doctors and nurses.
> 
> Sadly, some people are like that.  If you tell them N95 masks work, the first thing they do is buy a 100 pack to make sure they have enough for themselves.


I actually saw people fight of over TP first.  Mask was next, plus wash hands and stand 6 feet back and close down your small business until they know what's going on.  Restaurants were told to close and do delivery and then told only 50% allowed to come in with mask and then take off mask when sit down as the Rona will now leave until your done eating & drinking.  Then jab, then another jab and told no more mask and back to normal.  Well, that didn't last long and mask was forced even those who took two jabs.  Thai places was told wear mask everyone but 6 feet away and 50% open.  No jab, you wear mask as well + get fired.  I obeyed the mask but not the jabs.  I always wore my mask.  I will not inject whatever Dr. F made. This whole thing has ruined relationships.  We the people will soon find out how much people were bought off and why they would hurt other humans for money.  We will see massive bribes to the mighty rich cats and blackmail that will scare the crap out of anyone of us.  My pal sold everything a few years ago and bought a big Diesel Motorhome that gets 9 MPG.  His plans now are to to just chill and not drive much.  He wants to travel the country but it's triple the cost when he first set out before t took office.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Sure.  They told us not to buy masks in March 2020.  This was because they didn‘t want selfish jerks buying up the surgical and N95 masks that were needed for doctors and nurses.
> 
> Sadly, some people are like that.  If you tell them N95 masks work, the first thing they do is buy a 100 pack to make sure they have enough for themselves.


And some of those people “like that” are still bitterly bitter.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Sure.  They told us not to buy masks in March 2020.  This was because they didn‘t want selfish jerks buying up the surgical and N95 masks that were needed for doctors and nurses.
> 
> Sadly, some people are like that.  If you tell them N95 masks work, the first thing they do is buy a 100 pack to make sure they have enough for themselves.


Funny the visceral reaction to government mandates.  The government tells you masks don't work, don't buy them, so people buy masks - even though the CDC clearly stated, for some time, masks really don't work.  

But let's not re-hash the terrible mask studies - because it's impossible to seal with a surgical masks and hardly anyone has the discipline to wear an N95 correctly for any length of time (except for those fitted and trained).


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> And some of those people “like that” are still bitterly bitter.


And they always accuse others of what they themselves are.


----------



## MicPaPa

Oh yeah, thank you President Trump! and a shout out to Harry Reid as well.

A great night! Well, for most anyway.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Sure.  They told us not to buy masks in March 2020.  This was because they didn‘t want selfish jerks buying up the surgical and N95 masks that were needed for doctors and nurses.


I’m in agreement that the trench lines have been set by this point on masks. Most continued discussion is just a rehash of existing viewpoints.

However, the PPE (personal protective equipment) that they told us was not needed at the time was intended to be protective of the medical staff, not the other way around.

If masks fall into that category then it seems reasonable to wear them if you are concerned over your own health


----------



## crush

*We interrupt this important vaccine thread with breaking news from the Supremes: Babies win, babies win!!!  *


----------



## crush

*The losers are freaking out tonight.  These ladies are gnarly and just flat out mean to little babies  *


----------



## crush




----------



## MicPaPa

And just like that, violent protests and storming the halls of a government institution will be in favor again in 3..2..1


----------



## MicPaPa

Remember, this is all about wanting to brutally snuff out a helpless unborn baby - these people are shameless and psychotic. Change my mind.


----------



## crush

My pal on the left is not doing well this morning.  He canceled our coffee debate time because he's not feeling well again ((has all the shots)).  The fact is, he can't look at me in the eyes this morning and tell me how happy he is for me with the big news that got leaked last night by a very naughty clerk, who clerks for one of the judges.  Never has a Supreme Ruler Judge leaked like this.  Why leak the good news now?  What these monsters have done to our little precious babies is sick shit and millstones are being custom made as a write for those who knowingly torture innocent children to death to make a buck!  Human Trafficking is the # profit center in the world and the biggest one is the forced organ donations from humans who were only born to be donors.  We all think they were killed at the abortion clinic, ya right  What they have done to many babies is going to shock you all. If you have a soul and have not woken up yet to the facts of life on planet earth, you will soon WTF up and learn what is really going on. You won;t have a choice except to cry. If you have no soul, you will fight to the end to kill free speech, kill babies, force jabs on babies, force jabs on kids, force jabs on adults and force jabs on everyone and you must stand with Ukraine, Joe, Nancy, Adam, Hunter and the rest of the gang til the bitter end. I am anti-pay to play, I am anti-vax and I am anti-abortion. I do believe each State should have their own laws for abortion. It makes since to me. I love you all


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."  JFK

"The sky has fallen"  lady who supports late term abortions just said on msnbc.  Their freaking out.  I'm shocked this has been leak to sow chaos 

Looks folks, the judges who are for abortion are trying a hail mary to see if they can get another judge to change his or her vote.  That's for starters. It's still legal to kill a baby in every state.  15 weeks is still plenty of time to decide.  Some States will out law it after 6 weeks.  If you work for Amazon, they will help you travel to abort your baby.  I do think it's important to gather all the facts of exactly what their doing with these babies after they terminate them.  It's 100% a fact some babies are being sold for profit and 100% the older the baby, the more value you get for the baby.  Babies born without birth certificates are worth huge $$$, $250,000 and more.  It's a personal slave you brainwash into what you want that baby to become. This planet is so coo coo and full of nonsense. Let's all open our eyes wide open and get real about the basics of the meaning of life and why we came to this planet.  It's got to be better than "pay to play" and "pay for baby parts."   I've been pouring my little heart out to all of you for almost four years about being a voice for the voiceless.  Adoption and excellent foster care system should be a great help to all of us.  I know people who paid $10,000 to adopt a baby in Russia because it was so hard to adopt in the US.  We can do better and we all will.  We The People will rule this place we some help from the real Big Guy


----------



## crush

"We've been very good at getting heart, lung, liver because we know that ((their worth $$$)), so I'm not going to *crush* that part, so I'm basically going to* crush* above, and I'm gonna see if I can get all intact."  
This is a quote from a director of the plan for the parent in the hood.  She is chowing down on a meal and talking about this.  Stuffing her face and talking selling baby parts is sic and weird.  

I have to leave for the day.  I pray we can see the light together and see that all life shall be protected, especially the babies


----------



## Desert Hound

"A new peer-reviewed study entitled: "Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe" has demonstrated that use of face masks, even widespread, *did not correlate with better outcomes during the COVID epidemic,* based on data from 35 European countries with populations of over one million people each, encompassing a total of 602 million people."









						New study: Face mask usage correlates with higher death rates
					

Using data from 35 countries and 602 million people, peer-reviewed study confirms previous research and cautions use of face masks "may have harmful unintended consequences."




					www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> "A new peer-reviewed study entitled: "Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe" has demonstrated that use of face masks, even widespread, *did not correlate with better outcomes during the COVID epidemic,* based on data from 35 European countries with populations of over one million people each, encompassing a total of 602 million people."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New study: Face mask usage correlates with higher death rates
> 
> 
> Using data from 35 countries and 602 million people, peer-reviewed study confirms previous research and cautions use of face masks "may have harmful unintended consequences."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.israelnationalnews.com


Does the study correct for the obvious reverse effect -- that in areas with high rates of infection people are more likely to mask up?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> "A new peer-reviewed study entitled: "Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe" has demonstrated that use of face masks, even widespread, *did not correlate with better outcomes during the COVID epidemic,* based on data from 35 European countries with populations of over one million people each, encompassing a total of 602 million people."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New study: Face mask usage correlates with higher death rates
> 
> 
> Using data from 35 countries and 602 million people, peer-reviewed study confirms previous research and cautions use of face masks "may have harmful unintended consequences."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.israelnationalnews.com


Yep.  Seems clear to me.

Living in a country with lots of covid deaths causes people to self-report high rates of mask usage.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Does the study correct for the obvious reverse effect -- that in areas with high rates of infection people are more likely to mask up?


The study actually mentions that exact effect.  









						Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe
					

Masking was the single most common non-pharmaceutical intervention in the course of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Most countries have implemented recommendations or mandates regarding the use of masks in public spaces. The aim of this short study was to analyse the...




					www.cureus.com
				




They also made no attempt to filter by pop density, demographics, and so on.  So you get the same bias as the NBER study, except this stidy compares Finland to Germany, while NBER compared Montana to New York.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> The study actually mentions that exact effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe
> 
> 
> Masking was the single most common non-pharmaceutical intervention in the course of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Most countries have implemented recommendations or mandates regarding the use of masks in public spaces. The aim of this short study was to analyse the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cureus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They also made no attempt to filter by pop density, demographics, and so on.  So you get the same bias as the NBER study, except this stidy compares Finland to Germany, while NBER compared Montana to New York.


The studies keep showing masks don't work. 

I wonder where all those studies are that show masks made a difference are? After a couple of years you would think some would actually arise. And yet the evidence continues to fall the other way. They dont work at stopping the spread of a respiratory virus. 

One reason why they dont? Most of the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses. Actually that is the big/main reason. 

N95s? To an extent yes? Mainly in hospital settings...used for short periods of times, fitted correctly, etc. Which is not how the public uses them.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> The studies keep showing masks don't work.
> 
> I wonder where all those studies are that show masks made a difference are? After a couple of years you would think some would actually arise. And yet the evidence continues to fall the other way. They dont work at stopping the spread of a respiratory virus.
> 
> One reason why they dont? Most of the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses. Actually that is the big/main reason.
> 
> N95s? To an extent yes? Mainly in hospital settings...used for short periods of times, fitted correctly, etc. Which is not how the public uses them.


Nonsense.

But I repeat myself.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> But I repeat myself.


...this is what CHECKMATE looks like.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The studies keep showing masks don't work.
> 
> I wonder where all those studies are that show masks made a difference are? After a couple of years you would think some would actually arise. And yet the evidence continues to fall the other way. They dont work at stopping the spread of a respiratory virus.
> 
> One reason why they dont? Most of the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses. Actually that is the big/main reason.
> 
> N95s? To an extent yes? Mainly in hospital settings...used for short periods of times, fitted correctly, etc. Which is not how the public uses them.


Really?  What studies show masks don't work?

You've tried to misrepresent the Bangladesh study.   The study contains evidence that surgical masks work.  

The Bangladesh study does not contain evidence that cloth masks work, or that they do not work.  That is what "not statistically significant" means.  It means the study was unable to demonstrate a conclusion.  

Is there some other study you are thinking of?  One that actually claims to have proven that masks on infectious people do not reduce transmission?  

If so, provide the link, and the paragraph from the conclusion

If no link and no paragraph, then you've got nothing.


----------



## Desert Hound

Th


dad4 said:


> Really?  What studies show masks don't work?
> 
> You've tried to misrepresent the Bangladesh study.   The study contains evidence that surgical masks work.
> 
> The Bangladesh study does not contain evidence that cloth masks work, or that they do not work.  That is what "not statistically significant" means.  It means the study was unable to demonstrate a conclusion.
> 
> Is there some other study you are thinking of?  One that actually claims to have proven that masks on infectious people do not reduce transmission?
> 
> If so, provide the link, and the paragraph from the conclusion
> 
> If no link and no paragraph, then you've got nothing.


There were and are studies on the CDC website that long ago showed masks don't work. 

This is not new info. The only thing that changed is the politics.

They have decades of studies showing masks dont work.

All you see now are studies, etc noting that yeah...nothing has changed. They aren't designed to stop a respiratory virus...and that is old knowledge.

And that is why you don't see studies now suddenly saying they work. Mask design hasn't changed.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Th
> 
> There were and are studies on the CDC website that long ago showed masks don't work.
> 
> This is not new info. The only thing that changed is the politics.
> 
> They have decades of studies showing masks dont work.
> 
> All you see now are studies, etc noting that yeah...nothing has changed. They aren't designed to stop a respiratory virus...and that is old knowledge.
> 
> And that is why you don't see studies now suddenly saying they work. Mask design hasn't changed.


I see five assertions about studies.  But no link, and no quote.

You’ve got nothing.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> Does the study correct for the obvious reverse effect -- that in areas with high rates of infection people are more likely to mask up?


It's impossible to say.  Since there's a dust up on this one I checked out the paper.  The author is clear on where they downloaded the public datasets, but beyond that necessary methodological details that would be necessary to evaluate the work are absent.  "Data from 35 European countries on morbidity, mortality, and mask usage during a six-month period were collected and analysed (sic)."  That's it. So there's no way to tell what values from within the datasets were utilized or how they were processed to form the figure pieces.  Maybe its right, maybe its wrong, but from the details given there is no way to know.

BTW the review policy at Cureus is author invites a set of reviewers, editor sends out requests for at least one independent reviewer.  If the editor can't rustle up a reviewer in 21 days then, as long as two of the reviewers the author invited sent something in, that's what used. Haven't heard of it being done that way.  So if you get a lax editor, you get to pick your reviewers.  Pretty sweet.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> I see five assertions about studies.  But no link, and no quote.
> 
> You’ve got nothing.


What is your definition of "work"?  Many studies were done to convince someone masks work...they just didn't work.  If masks did work then they would have worked.  

Something about  those pesky fine aerosol particles that are kryptonite for cloth and surgical masks.  N95s are the real deal, most of society just can't hang with them.  States with stiff mask mandates didn't fare better, just take a peek at RI data.  

Now, vaccines, whole different story.  Clear data shows states with higher vax rates have better hospitalization and death outcomes.  But masks??not so much.  Too much emphasis and angst associated with masking.  

If masks worked they would have worked.  Novel virus pandemics are hard, they are even harder when you have governmen idiots picking sides, drawing lines, and trampling on personal freedom.  How effective was filling in skate parks and shutting down forests?  Silliness..


----------



## watfly

This is all you need to know about masks.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> This is all you need to know about masks.
> 
> View attachment 13456


This is all so personal with you. You can’t help yourself, you wear it on your virtual sleeves.


----------



## crush

A special shout out to my pro-life mama.  Thank you Miss Kirk for allowing me a chance at life.  Thank you and I mean that 100%.  I have never in my 55+ years on this planet seen the left so angry.  Pro Choice Pastors are preaching abortion. masks, force jabs and obey the boss because I watch over you.  This is getting very intense and emotional for so many.  When HRC back in 2016 lost I saw some crazy people go nuts, but now I'm seeing some normal people show their true colors and now their all angry and bitter and make zero logical sense.  These two emotions are not good and will cause many people to do things they wish they did not.  Happy Whacky Wednesday.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> This is all so personal with you. You can’t help yourself, you wear it on your virtual sleeves.


I assume the pic makes you feel good or affirms your beliefs?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> I assume the pic makes you feel good or affirms your beliefs?


Why would you assume that?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> This is all so personal with you. You can’t help yourself, you wear it on your virtual sleeves.


I'm not sure what that even means.  You can read whatever you want into the photo.  My point is that the mask mandates were never credible, they only really applied to the hired help, the little people and the unwashed masses.  Hillary apparently doesn't care about her neighbors or anyone but herself under your standard.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I'm not sure what that even means.  You can read whatever you want into the photo.  My point is that the mask mandates were never credible, they only really applied to the hired help, the little people and the unwashed masses.  Hillary apparently doesn't care about her neighbors or anyone but herself under your standard.


When and where was the picture taken?  What is going on there?  Did you look for evidence of photoshop manipulation?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'm not sure what that even means.  You can read whatever you want into the photo.  My point is that the mask mandates were never credible, they only really applied to the hired help, the little people and the unwashed masses.  Hillary apparently doesn't care about her neighbors or anyone but herself under your standard.


HRC and her mentor are 100% responsible for helping kill millions of black babies and I mean millions.  That pic say's it all.  Now you know why they cheated and stole the election.  It was always going to come down to life vs death for our precious babies.  They want to jab our children as well.  What we have done to innocent life will shock the shit out of you.  These are monsters were dealing with.  No souls in some of these humans.  They were born to cause havoc and murder and then they will be caught and taken off the planet.  This is a big clean up operation around the world.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> When and where was the picture taken?  What is going on there?  Did you look for evidence of photoshop manipulation?


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> When and where was the picture taken?  What is going on there?  Did you look for evidence of photoshop manipulation?


When this is all you have left - you have nothing.


----------



## MicPaPa

watfly said:


> I'm not sure what that even means.  You can read whatever you want into the photo.  My point is that the mask mandates were never credible, they only really applied to the hired help, the little people and the unwashed masses.  Hillary apparently doesn't care about her neighbors or anyone but herself under your standard.


Her body her choice is back in favor, please try and keep up with the loons.


----------



## MicPaPa

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why would you assume that?


I'd say cuz you're a loony lefty.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'm not sure what that even means.  You can read whatever you want into the photo.  My point is that the mask mandates were never credible, they only really applied to the hired help, the little people and the unwashed masses.  Hillary apparently doesn't care about her neighbors or anyone but herself under your standard.


“your standard”? Please explain.


----------



## Hüsker Dü




----------



## crush

Breaking News:  Record surge in AIDS, Gonorrhea, Hepatitis, and Cancer this year and the Docs have no idea why the surge.  Miscarriages are through the roof.  Death is 40% higher then last year and the year before that for under 45.  Something is not right.  My neighbor was telling me about his kid going to JC and is not allowed on campus without proof of being fully jabbed.  Crazy rules in the State we live in.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> What is your definition of "work"?  Many studies were done to convince someone masks work...they just didn't work.  If masks did work then they would have worked.
> 
> Something about  those pesky fine aerosol particles that are kryptonite for cloth and surgical masks.  N95s are the real deal, most of society just can't hang with them.  States with stiff mask mandates didn't fare better, just take a peek at RI data.
> 
> Now, vaccines, whole different story.  Clear data shows states with higher vax rates have better hospitalization and death outcomes.  But masks??not so much.  Too much emphasis and angst associated with masking.
> 
> If masks worked they would have worked.  Novel virus pandemics are hard, they are even harder when you have governmen idiots picking sides, drawing lines, and trampling on personal freedom.  How effective was filling in skate parks and shutting down forests?  Silliness..


You seem to want “work” to be boolean.  It either does work or it doesn’t.

Cloth masks do a great job at deflecting your breath away from other people. Try blowing out a candle while wearing one.  You just can’t do it, because your breath isn’t going very far.  If there are any virus aerosols in that breath, they aren’t going very far either.  

Then try cooking some garlic in a pan while wearing a cloth mask.  Smells pretty good, doesnt it?  The tasty garlic smell comes right through.  So do the aerosols.

Now, does that mean cloth masks “work”, or “don’t work”?

Outside, that deflected warm air rises and diffuses throughout the atmosphere.  Problem solved.  
Inside, the deflected warm air rises, then diffuses throughout the room.  Problem still exists.  

Where does that leave your nice little dichotomy?  The cloth masks “work“ in one context, but don’t “work” in the other.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

what-happened said:


> Now, vaccines, whole different story.  Clear data shows states with higher vax rates have better hospitalization and death outcomes.


Agree.  It would have been great if the flexibility of the technology could have been utilized at scale to keep pace with variants.  As the infectivity of the virus jumped up to being on par with measles that also made it really tough.  Still, if we end up with omicron as the endemic form of this outbreak rather than delta that will be a blessing.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You seem to want “work” to be boolean.  It either does work or it doesn’t.
> 
> Cloth masks do a great job at deflecting your breath away from other people. Try blowing out a candle while wearing one.  You just can’t do it, because your breath isn’t going very far.  If there are any virus aerosols in that breath, they aren’t going very far either.
> 
> Then try cooking some garlic in a pan while wearing a cloth mask.  Smells pretty good, doesnt it?  The tasty garlic smell comes right through.  So do the aerosols.
> 
> Now, does that mean cloth masks “work”, or “don’t work”?
> 
> Outside, that deflected warm air rises and diffuses throughout the atmosphere.  Problem solved.
> Inside, the deflected warm air rises, then diffuses throughout the room.  Problem still exists.
> 
> Where does that leave your nice little dichotomy?  The cloth masks “work“ in one context, but don’t “work” in the other.


Again there are studies for decades that show masks don't stop respiratory viruses. 

Doesnt matter of the breath goes out sideways of a mask or not. The point is they leak. They neither stop respiratory viruses from going in or out. They are not sealed. Nor are they designed to stop the extremely small particle size that is a virus. Which is also why the packaging on them says not designed to stop viruses. 

This has been known now for some time. 

We now have a couple more years of real world evidence amongst us. 100s of millions of people were using masks. And we see constantly that infection rates between areas of high compliance and low compliance, infection rates were similar. 

You have more and more studies saying (again) they didn't make a difference. 

More telling? You don't have studies coming out saying YES masks made a difference during covid. If there was evidence of the effectiveness of masks during covid those studies would be FRONT and CENTER. And yet there we don't see those. Why? Because masks didn't make a difference.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Again there are studies for decades that show masks don't stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> Doesnt matter of the breath goes out sideways of a mask or not. The point is they leak. They neither stop respiratory viruses from going in or out. They are not sealed. Nor are they designed to stop the extremely small particle size that is a virus. Which is also why the packaging on them says not designed to stop viruses.
> 
> This has been known now for some time.
> 
> We now have a couple more years of real world evidence amongst us. 100s of millions of people were using masks. And we see constantly that infection rates between areas of high compliance and low compliance, infection rates were similar.
> 
> You have more and more studies saying (again) they didn't make a difference.
> 
> More telling? You don't have studies coming out saying YES masks made a difference during covid. If there was evidence of the effectiveness of masks during covid those studies would be FRONT and CENTER. And yet there we don't see those. Why? Because masks didn't make a difference.











						Surgical masks reduce COVID-19 spread, large-scale study shows
					

Researchers found that surgical masks impede the spread of COVID-19 and that just a few, low-cost interventions increase mask-wearing compliance.




					med.stanford.edu


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Again there are studies for decades that show masks don't stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> Doesnt matter of the breath goes out sideways of a mask or not. The point is they leak. They neither stop respiratory viruses from going in or out. They are not sealed. Nor are they designed to stop the extremely small particle size that is a virus. Which is also why the packaging on them says not designed to stop viruses.
> 
> This has been known now for some time.
> 
> We now have a couple more years of real world evidence amongst us. 100s of millions of people were using masks. And we see constantly that infection rates between areas of high compliance and low compliance, infection rates were similar.
> 
> You have more and more studies saying (again) they didn't make a difference.
> 
> More telling? You don't have studies coming out saying YES masks made a difference during covid. If there was evidence of the effectiveness of masks during covid those studies would be FRONT and CENTER. And yet there we don't see those. Why? Because masks didn't make a difference.


Link?  Paragraph?

You got nothing.  Still.


Link:





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




Paragraph:

A randomized-trial of community-level mask promotion in rural Bangladesh during the COVID-19 pandemic shows that the intervention increased mask usage and reduced symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections, demonstrating that promoting community mask-wearing can improve public health.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Bangladesh study.....the study contains evidence that surgical masks work.


Yeah, and the thing about the discussion in that paper is that it really focuses on the implications of their data for the collaborative game theory behind mask (surgical) wearing.  It was basically an intervention study.  Large studies like the Bangladesh one where there is a real effort to control variables and meaningfully assess outcomes are difficult and expensive.  Unfortunately, we are unlikely to see too many of them, and their impact will be diluted by the "I can download a spreadsheet and make some graphs" stuff where anyone can play.  I mean people should really feel free to do that.  That is what the data is for.  But if one is going to bring that work forward, there has to be a responsible effort to say "here is what I did".

For us Westerners, masks are unfortunately symbols of hiding, bad intent, weakness, disease and death.  It will never be like the Korean kids that go to a Kpop concert, wear masks and don't scream as a sign of respect for the performers.  Take the TLDR numbers from the Bangladesh study and put them on the left side.  Put some sort of meme like the birds beak masks worn by the dead collectors during the Black Death on the right.  Or any of the AI generated meme straight out of IRA headquarters in St. Petersburg. Ask "do masks work on not".  I imagine somebody has done something like that.  Would be interesting to see how strong the effect is.

I think there was a new and views summary of the Bangladesh paper posted here but not the work itself.  could be wrong.  in any case here is the link; don't think it is behind a paywall.






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Link?  Paragraph?
> 
> You got nothing.  Still.
> 
> 
> Link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paragraph:
> 
> A randomized-trial of community-level mask promotion in rural Bangladesh during the COVID-19 pandemic shows that the intervention increased mask usage and reduced symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections, demonstrating that promoting community mask-wearing can improve public health.


That's funny.  You just added the link while I posted.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13460


The irony behind you posting this is fantastic!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That's funny.  You just added the link while I posted.


Ha.  Even Crush thinks its funny.  Everybody is on the same wavelength,  One more cup of coffee and its gonna be a great day.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Ha.  Even Crush thinks its funny.  Everybody is on the same wavelength,  One more cup of coffee and its gonna be a great day.


I feel deep down we can all come together to make life on earth better for all mankind


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The irony behind you posting this is fantastic!


Explain please or is that just another stimuli attempt to receive nods from the likeminded?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Link?  Paragraph?
> 
> You got nothing.  Still.
> 
> 
> Link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paragraph:
> 
> A randomized-trial of community-level mask promotion in rural Bangladesh during the COVID-19 pandemic shows that the intervention increased mask usage and reduced symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections, demonstrating that promoting community mask-wearing can improve public health.


So you are back to the Bangladesh study that has issues. You can scroll back on these pages to see the various discussions related to that study. 

That is it?

You are a believer which is why you continue to grasp at straws.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> So you are back to the Bangladesh study that has issues. You can scroll back on these pages to see the various discussions related to that study.
> 
> That is it?
> 
> You are a believer which is why you continue to grasp at straws.


Grasping? Who’s grasping? So far the masks don’t work is a fabricated idea along the lines of your zero risk summations. Believe all you want but others need more than your word of how you ‘feel’ things should be. Shangri-la.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So you are back to the Bangladesh study that has issues. You can scroll back on these pages to see the various discussions related to that study.
> 
> That is it?
> 
> You are a believer which is why you continue to grasp at straws.


Still no link.  Still no quote.

Random personal attack?  Yep. You have that covered.

link:


			https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2018995118
		


quote:
*Finally, we reiterate that the wearing of masks largely eliminates the risk of respiratory jets*, and so makes the well-mixed room approximation considered here all the more relevant.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Grasping? Who’s grasping? So far the masks don’t work is a fabricated idea along the lines of your zero risk summations. Believe all you want but others need more than your word of how you ‘feel’ things should be. Shangri-la.


ha..classic.  conflating two things. Like many half assed and deperate studies done over the last two years, the bangladeshi mask study is right up there with the argentine ivermectin study.  Never mind the vaccine(s) debacle around studies, trials, omittance, etc.

Living your life believing everything you are told is a pretty basic existence.  Masks kinda work, sorta, if you have the right one,know how to wear one, when to wear one....vaccines kinda work more than masks, especially for certain populations.  Smart people are able to put their own mitigation plans into place.

The pharma document dumps are pretty disturbing, you should read them.  They are likely to piss off plenty of parents who were led astray, especially parents of girl child.  Leaving stuff out isn't cool, especially when you know you'll eventually have to disclose.  Aren't you the least bit concerned about the lack of accountability for pharma companies?  They can jab away and not be overly concerned about their livelihoods.   Very interesting, in a sad sort of way...they continue to be allowed to advertise, sponsor, etc.  shameful.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> ha..classic.  conflating two things. Like many half assed and deperate studies done over the last two years, the bangladeshi mask study is right up there with the argentine ivermectin study.  Never mind the vaccine(s) debacle around studies, trials, omittance, etc.
> 
> Living your life believing everything you are told is a pretty basic existence.  Masks kinda work, sorta, if you have the right one,know how to wear one, when to wear one....vaccines kinda work more than masks, especially for certain populations.  Smart people are able to put their own mitigation plans into place.
> 
> The pharma document dumps are pretty disturbing, you should read them.  They are likely to piss off plenty of parents who were led astray, especially parents of girl child.  Leaving stuff out isn't cool, especially when you know you'll eventually have to disclose.  Aren't you the least bit concerned about the lack of accountability for pharma companies?  They can jab away and not be overly concerned about their livelihoods.   Very interesting, in a sad sort of way...they continue to be allowed to advertise, sponsor, etc.  shameful.


Yeah, natural gas isn’t clean, recycling is mostly a farce and clean energy isn’t that clean, yet we persist.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah, natural gas isn’t clean, recycling is mostly a farce and clean energy isn’t that clean, yet we persist.


so sciency.


----------



## crush

Has anyone of you avatars seen 2000 Mules?


----------



## watfly

Militant pro-remote schooling union boss FINALLY admits problem
					

Randi Weingarten, president of the second-largest teachers' union in the U.S., was among the strongest supporters of remote learning. On Tuesday she admitted it has caused a crisis.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Militant pro-remote schooling union boss FINALLY admits problem
> 
> 
> Randi Weingarten, president of the second-largest teachers' union in the U.S., was among the strongest supporters of remote learning. On Tuesday she admitted it has caused a crisis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Mean boss lady


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Dr. Gates on our future.  How this guy became the leading authority for vaccines is insane.  This dude comes up with BS and then spews to us.  Of course 99% of you believe this guy because he's so smart and rich.  









						Bill Gates on new variants...
					

✶ ✯ ► ► FEARLESS NATION ◄ ◄  ✯ ✶ We are all explorers trying to find ourselves... Some people around you will not understand your journey. They don’t need to; it’s not for them.  Odysee ▶ https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FEARLESS_ONE:8 - https://od…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

I'm telling you all that people like this lady are real and are very very pissed off and full of rage and anger.  They want to kill so bad, they can taste it.  I have never seen so much anger from the left.  They hated t because t was going to bring in pro-life judges and he did what he promised.  t said he would end human trafficking.  You all hear me?  t said he would end it once and for all and he also said these people are sick.  The people voted for t and t won fair and square.  When HRC lost, these same people went bat shit crazy on all of us.  They ((the left)) went on SM platforms and went full Husker Du and Espola on us and put redlines on friendships.  I said it then and I will say it again.  It's all about the kids and who controls the kids. Think about it.  They ((The left)) want to kill kids before their born up to before birth.  Our wonderful state of CA allows abortion up to 6 months.  So crazy that were even debating this online.  What a place that kills their own offspring.  63,000,000 and counting since 1973.  Roe btw was not raped like they said she was.  Total liars.  I agree that this should be left up to each State to decide.  The misinformation spewing hate right now is all designed to cause chaos because that is what they ((the left)) do when they ((the left)) lose.  They ((the left)) also want to mask all kids.  They also want to force jab our kids or no access.  My kid can;t even go to in person JC without being fully jabbed.  My other friends son just got his booster after telling me he was done.  Why booster?  The Big U he is enrolling in won;t let him enroll unless he is "fully" jabbed + all the boosters.  The kids and the unborn babies need our help.  Calling all fence sitters:  We need help down here.  They ((the left)) want total control of everything and if you don;t like it, F off!!!  This poor kid is trying to help his parents as well.  Long story but dad lost his job and mom passed a way years ago.  The dad sold things so son can go to college.  Son was all set and then told, "boosters or no school for you."  So he took the boosters and now is all in.  He will do whatever the school tells him to do.  
If you want to pay to play in the lefts world and have fellowship with them and be in their space, then you must allow and support abortion right up until birth, wear mask when told, take all jabs and boosters forever, support Ukraine and be willing to send your owns kids to Kiev and fight along the great warriors of Ukraine and help take down Vladimir and his army of thugs.  After the support of all wars, you must also support all Transgender males who say at a dimes notice that they are now females.  They can compete in all NCAA women sports and take showers with the girls.  What a wonderful world we live in.  The light has shined on the darkness and the darkness is angry!!!


----------



## crush

*"Scientific Fraud"*


----------



## crush

Breaking Crush News:  WEF top dog Mr. Klaus is now telling all his followers that it's time to "accelerate" the 2030 Agenda.  Basically, things are not going as planned and it's time to speed things up.  Remember, Klaus said you will own nothing and be happy.   The 2022 Mid Terms is now only about abortion and nothing else.  No more talk about lockdowns, mask, jabs, supply chain, Diesal prices going through the roof and food processing plants having planes crashing into them like bombs and mystery fires taking them out of business.  t told everyone two things when he ran in 2016.  #1. He would appoint pro-life judges.  How many did t appoint?  That's correct Husker Du, 3 and those three voted ((according to the draft that was leaked)) to over turn Jane Roe and they are.  #2 t said he would end Human Trafficking.  Look at all the arrows pointed at him for the last 6 years.  The truth is now for all to see.  They want to kill babies deeply and madly, they want to teach the children their way of killing others and their way of life and they want to force jab + boosters in order to go to be taught at the next level.  They are trying to also pay you so they can brainwash you.  You have to get the jab for in person brainwashing.  Crazy bats.......


----------



## Grace T.

The UK is showing vaccine and booster effectiveness is reducing to nothing or next to nothing depending on the vax against symptomatic infection around 20 weeks out.  Other than boosting the most elderly or the most vulnerable, not sure what they are trying to accomplish at this point beyond pharma profits.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The UK is showing vaccine and booster effectiveness is reducing to nothing or next to nothing depending on the vax against symptomatic infection around 20 weeks out.  Other than boosting the most elderly or the most vulnerable, not sure what they are trying to accomplish at this point beyond pharma profits.


At what point in Dr. Campbell's video does he mention "pharma profits"?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The UK is showing vaccine and booster effectiveness is reducing to nothing or next to nothing depending on the vax against symptomatic infection around 20 weeks out.  Other than boosting the most elderly or the most vulnerable, not sure what they are trying to accomplish at this point beyond pharma profits.


Welcome back Grace T.  This is a weird way to control people.  My best pal is fully jabbed and has all boosters.  He is sick a lot and is not in the best health, moo.  Today, he is so angry about the leaked draft that Roe vs Wade will be sent to hell and be no more.  The State and it's people will decide the laws of life and death and the pursuit of happiness for all life, born or unborn.


----------



## crush

*Pics from the 2000 Mules Premier in Fl.  I don't have the desire to watch it so if anyone does see it, please PM me what you think, thanks*


----------



## crush

*Rudy Rudy Rudy!!!!*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The UK is showing vaccine and booster effectiveness is reducing to nothing or next to nothing depending on the vax against symptomatic infection around 20 weeks out.  Other than boosting the most elderly or the most vulnerable, not sure what they are trying to accomplish at this point beyond pharma profits.


You tube is a horrible way to distribute information for discussion.  

Text source is below.  Scroll down for the charts labelled “vaccine effectiveness”.



			Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics
		


The chart there is for symptomatic infection.  You need to use hospitalization numbers if you want to make your “it’s only for Pharma” argument.  I don’t feel like a Pharma dupe if the jab let me test positive but kept me out of the hospital.


----------



## crush

Breaking Gas News from Phoenix


----------



## met61

...things could not be clearer...weak men and angry women.


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> At what point in Dr. Campbell's video does he mention "pharma profits"?


isn't that implied?


----------



## crush

This is crazy.  The whole cruise ship is fully jabbed and over 200 people get Covid and have to sit in hotel in Seattle and make no calls.  Fully jabbed is two jabs plus at least 2 boosters and they still get Covid.  I am at a lost for words.  I think we should do a cruise for folks with no jabs and see how many get Covid.  









						Carnival Cruise Ship passengers say COVID overwhelmed ship
					

Passengers on a Carnival Cruise Ship that docked Tuesday in Seattle say more than 100 people aboard the ship tested positive for COVID-19 and the ship was overwhelmed.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## met61

Imagine...our government mandated healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...

...now this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522340191998038016


----------



## Desert Hound

met61 said:


> Imagine...our government mandated healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...
> 
> ...now this
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522340191998038016


Imagine if you will those of us who argued that you cannot mandate a drug when there have been no long term studies...and individuals like @Dad here scoffed at that notion.


----------



## crush

met61 said:


> Imagine...our government mandated healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...
> 
> ...now this
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522340191998038016


Blood clots roam around the blood vessels looking to clog the road up with mush and then too much mush and you have a heart attack or widow attack like my nephew.  My good pal took his first jab and got blood clot soon after.  The mask debate is lame.


----------



## MicPaPa

Desert Hound said:


> Imagine if you will those of us who argued that you cannot mandate a drug when there have been no long term studies...and individuals like @Dad here scoffed at that notion.


Imagine all the science and medical professionals who tried raising these concerns and having discussions, only to be censored, banned, and threatened.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Imagine if you will those of us who argued that you cannot mandate a drug when there have been no long term studies...and individuals like @Dad here scoffed at that notion.


But it worked in the lab, so you don't need long term studies.


----------



## crush

MicPaPa said:


> Imagine all the science and medical professionals who tried raising these concerns and having discussions, only to be censored, banned, and threatened.


Imagine taking the jab so you dont get fired and lose your house and now forced to take blood thinner the rest of your life.  That's my pals life now. My nephew is also on blood thinner from window attack and my old pastor sister died.  Imagine how all these Docs will have to give an answer to pushing the J & J.  My other best pay took the J & J and I asked how he was doing and he said he's been having issues with short breath.  Dude used to be all into mountain biking and now's he's on, "dont take any chances with all the jabs he took and yes, he took the J & J.  Thanks a lot Dad and all the others pushing the jab so you can save your income.  This is criminal and wrong.  This proves I was right to say no.  Radio commercials in OC say take the boosters and jabs.  Now they want to go to abortion.  These people are sick, just like t said.  He knew all before us what they were doing. Military is the only option out of this.  Killers live among us!!!


----------



## crush

Why do commercials say jabs are safe and, "step right up and be next"  to win a chance of catching Bells Palsy, Blood clots, myocarditis, or any of the new side effects their just now learning about as each day is over and new information is out.  Many have died from this new clotting in the blood.  Time to put a stop to all of these jabs until we can learn what's next for those who took these bad jabs.  My buddy has been sick for over a week and is not texting me back or taking my calls.  Also, people are getting AIDS now more than the 80s and now I hear a new form of Hepatitis they have never heard of is putting people in the ER.  I am praying for all of us.  

*Safe & Effective???*

*FDA puts new limits on Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to rare blood clotting condition*
*Health officials have detected 60 cases of the rare blood clotting condition TTS, nine of which have been fatal*


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> But it worked in the lab, so you don't need long term studies.


That was sarcasm BTW.


----------



## Lion Eyes

crush said:


> Why do commercials say jabs are safe and, "step right up and be next"  to win a chance of catching Bells Palsy, Blood clots, myocarditis, or any of the new side effects their just now learning about as each day is over and new information is out.  Many have died from this new clotting in the blood.  Time to put a stop to all of these jabs until we can learn what's next for those who took these bad jabs.  My buddy has been sick for over a week and is not texting me back or taking my calls.  Also, people are getting AIDS now more than the 80s and now I hear a new form of Hepatitis they have never heard of is putting people in the ER.  I am praying for all of us.
> 
> *Safe & Effective???*
> View attachment 13475
> *FDA puts new limits on Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to rare blood clotting condition*
> *Health officials have detected 60 cases of the rare blood clotting condition TTS, nine of which have been fatal*


Interesting information:

To date, nearly 17 million Americans have received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Scientists said that if you have already received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, there is no need to be concerned, as the risk of blood clots happens in the days and weeks after you have received your shot. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although traditional vaccines have taken years to develop, scientists have harnessed a much faster method for the COVID vaccine. 
The technique, used to create both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, uses mRNA — or messenger RNA — to make harmless versions of the spike proteins found on the COVID-19 virus. In earlier vaccines, scientists had to make those proteins in a lab and then transfer them into the vaccine.

With mRNA, our body produces the proteins — a vastly quicker and more efficient process. It does this so well because our body already knows how to make mRNA (and does all the time). mRNA is like a blank piece of paper that our cell nucleus encodes instructions into in order to make proteins that control bodily processes, like hormones. Our cell nucleus then “mails” the mRNA it’s encoded out into the rest of the body. This process happens inside us every moment of the day.

Since the mRNA in the vaccine is not produced by the cell nucleus, where DNA is kept, it never affects our genome in any way. It just joins the stream of other mRNA being sent through our body to produce proteins and regulate our bodies.

That's vastly preferable to letting COVID-19, or any other virus, work its way through our cells


----------



## soccersc

This administration is out of control…first she doesn’t condone protesting in front of a superior courts justices house…then she says it’s a fundamental right to make choices about their own bodies and their own healthcare

wait…what? But they can make people get vaccinated? They don’t have a choice what happens to their bodies…wow…if people still don’t think this is about control, they've lost it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522330106395602944


----------



## crush

soccersc said:


> This administration is out of control…first she doesn’t condone protesting in front of a superior courts justices house…then she says it’s a fundamental right to make choices about their own bodies and their own healthcare
> 
> wait…what? But they can make people get vaccinated? They don’t have a choice what happens to their bodies…wow…if people still don’t think this is about control, they've lost it
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522330106395602944


The people have lost their minds.  People are going nuts and screaming for their right to abort their baby up until birth.  Roe v Wade was not supposed to allow the selling of the baby fetus.  They ((the far left)) took abortion way to far and now want mom to have the right to abort right up until birth.  Can most of us agree that is crazy and flat out wrong?  The same people also scream to groom our kids because they don't have any kids to groom because they decided to abort their kid.  Then the same crew is screaming to force our kids to wear a mask and get fully jabbed or no college for them.  The demons have been released and all true colors are being revealed.  I'm still shocked at the anger and rage in some people that don;t get what they want.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> This administration is out of control…first she doesn’t condone protesting in front of a superior courts justices house…then she says it’s a fundamental right to make choices about their own bodies and their own healthcare
> 
> wait…what? But they can make people get vaccinated? They don’t have a choice what happens to their bodies…wow…if people still don’t think this is about control, they've lost it
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522330106395602944


One is personal, the other directly affects others. You can now return to your disingenuous nutter routine.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> One is personal, the other directly affects others. You can now return to your disingenuous nutter routine.


Yes, we finally agree on something.  Injecting poison in your blood is 100% a personal choice, even if others will fire you.  Aborting a baby after it has a heart beat effects the babies future life and then baby dies and then it's organs are sold.  TGIFF Husker Du and we finally have something we both like


----------



## Desert Hound

As time marches on...we see more and more disastrous results from our quijote like quest to stop the virus.

Masking? Didn't help
Shuttering biz and wiping off the saving of millions didn't help.
Printing money? Highest inflation in DECADES
Kids not going to school. A real fn disaster. Some posters on here...were all for keeping kids out of schools. dad for one was the biggest cheerleader.









						NY Times: Research shows 'remote learning was a failure' driven primarily by Democratic partisanship (Update)
					






					hotair.com


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You tube is a horrible way to distribute information for discussion.
> 
> Text source is below.  Scroll down for the charts labelled “vaccine effectiveness”.
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> 
> The chart there is for symptomatic infection.  You need to use hospitalization numbers if you want to make your “it’s only for Pharma” argument.  I don’t feel like a Pharma dupe if the jab let me test positive but kept me out of the hospital.


1. Reliable people like Campbell are great for helping make sense of the data for those of us you regard as STEM morons that you always looked down upon.  Oh yeah, I remember, trust the experts, but only those that have the dad4 seal of approval.
2. It's funny how far back your line has fallen back to that you are now at "kept me out of the hospital".  If that's the point we are at, then there was no point in vaccinating people who had already had it since their prior infection would "keep them out of the hospital" for the second.
3. It also means there's no point in boosting with the original shot, except in very limited instances of the very elderly and immunocompromised (and I don't mean I have asthma that means I'm immunocompromised....in like I'm in active chemo treatment or have AIDS immocompromised).  It also means there was never any point in vaccinating the under 20, and serious consideration should have been given to the 20-30 who were immunonaive.
4.  I truly wonder, seeing what's happening in China, and having one domino fall after another (whether the kids in schools, the vaccines, the masks, the inflation, where Sweden/Florida ended up, the wipe down theater) and seeing what's the thought process in your head.  It really does fascinate me, because you usually don't see it outside of the context of religion, and having had a ton of conversations with believers, and having encountered some I was never able to get to question, I never really understood it.  Now that's something I would pay dollars to understand how the brain can actually do it.  I understand the trolls like espola and busker and what motivates them.  But even though I don't have a comprehension of it, a little bit of me admires the faithful too.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> 1. Reliable people like Campbell are great for helping make sense of the data for those of us you regard as STEM morons that you always looked down upon.  Oh yeah, I remember, trust the experts, but only those that have the dad4 seal of approval.
> 2. It's funny how far back your line has fallen back to that you are now at "kept me out of the hospital".  If that's the point we are at, then there was no point in vaccinating people who had already had it since their prior infection would "keep them out of the hospital" for the second.
> 3. It also means there's no point in boosting with the original shot, except in very limited instances of the very elderly and immunocompromised (and I don't mean I have asthma that means I'm immunocompromised....in like I'm in active chemo treatment or have AIDS immocompromised).  It also means there was never any point in vaccinating the under 20, and serious consideration should have been given to the 20-30 who were immunonaive.
> 4.  I truly wonder, seeing what's happening in China, and having one domino fall after another (whether the kids in schools, the vaccines, the masks, the inflation, where Sweden/Florida ended up, the wipe down theater) and seeing what's the thought process in your head.  It really does fascinate me, because you usually don't see it outside of the context of religion, and having had a ton of conversations with believers, and having encountered some I was never able to get to question, I never really understood it.  Now that's something I would pay dollars to understand how the brain can actually do it.  I understand the trolls like espola and busker and what motivates them.  But even though I don't have a comprehension of it, a little bit of me admires the faithful too.


My daughters university next year is not requiring boosters, only the original 2 shots of Moderna and Pfizer, or 1 shot of J&J.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> My daughters university next year is not requiring boosters, only the original 2 shots of Moderna and Pfizer, or 1 shot of J&J.


If it wasn't obvious, this an out-of-state university...a public one in fact.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> One is personal, the other directly affects others. You can now return to your disingenuous nutter routine.


Pretty sure even if you get vaccinated you can still affect others...but its vaccinated people like you that think because they are vaccinated they can't spread it


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> One is personal, the other directly affects others. You can now return to your disingenuous nutter routine.


How so?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My daughters university next year is not requiring boosters, only the original 2 shots of Moderna and Pfizer, or 1 shot of J&J.


Amen bro.  She must be going out of State?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> If it wasn't obvious, this an out-of-state university...a public one in fact.


Disregard my Q bro


----------



## crush

"If your opponent is of Choleric Temper, seek to irritate him.  Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant"


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How so?


The nutter routine is blatantly obvious.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> 1. Reliable people like Campbell are great for helping make sense of the data for those of us you regard as STEM morons that you always looked down upon.  Oh yeah, I remember, trust the experts, but only those that have the dad4 seal of approval.
> 2. It's funny how far back your line has fallen back to that you are now at "kept me out of the hospital".  If that's the point we are at, then there was no point in vaccinating people who had already had it since their prior infection would "keep them out of the hospital" for the second.
> 3. It also means there's no point in boosting with the original shot, except in very limited instances of the very elderly and immunocompromised (and I don't mean I have asthma that means I'm immunocompromised....in like I'm in active chemo treatment or have AIDS immocompromised).  It also means there was never any point in vaccinating the under 20, and serious consideration should have been given to the 20-30 who were immunonaive.
> 4.  I truly wonder, seeing what's happening in China, and having one domino fall after another (whether the kids in schools, the vaccines, the masks, the inflation, where Sweden/Florida ended up, the wipe down theater) and seeing what's the thought process in your head.  It really does fascinate me, because you usually don't see it outside of the context of religion, and having had a ton of conversations with believers, and having encountered some I was never able to get to question, I never really understood it.  Now that's something I would pay dollars to understand how the brain can actually do it.  I understand the trolls like espola and busker and what motivates them.  But even though I don't have a comprehension of it, a little bit of me admires the faithful too.


It isn’t that I believe vaccines do no more than keep me out of the hospital.   There is plenty to be said for reducing transmission by shortening the period over which a person is contagious.

But, that is a STEM discussion.  And, as you mentioned, you not going to hold up your end of a discussion on a STEM topic.  You are neither capable of understanding the material, nor willing to defer to those who do.   I didn’t have the option of discussing the impact of an X% reduction in duration of infectiousness.

So I picked a point which is unarguable and easy to understand: people don’t like being hospitalized, NHS doesn’t like paying for unnecessary hospital visits, and the vaccine is reducing hospitalization numbers.  It’s a baby argument, but it was enough.

If you want to be taken out of the baby arguments bucket, then drop the pretense that you understand everything better than those “experts”.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> It isn’t that I believe vaccines do no more than keep me out of the hospital.   There is plenty to be said for reducing transmission by shortening the period over which a person is contagious.
> 
> But, that is a STEM discussion.  And, as you mentioned, you not going to hold up your end of a discussion on a STEM topic.  You are neither capable of understanding the material, nor willing to defer to those who do.   I didn’t have the option of discussing the impact of an X% reduction in duration of infectiousness.
> 
> So I picked a point which is unarguable and easy to understand: people don’t like being hospitalized, NHS doesn’t like paying for unnecessary hospital visits, and the vaccine is reducing hospitalization numbers.  It’s a baby argument, but it was enough.
> 
> If you want to be taken out of the baby arguments bucket, then drop the pretense that you understand everything better than those “experts”.


Over the course of this thread, from my viewpoint Grace has moved from well-informed but with an obvious agenda to just plain irrelevant.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> The nutter routine is blatantly obvious.


You mean deflect and insult.   Spot on!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Over the course of this thread, from my viewpoint Grace has moved from well-informed but with an obvious agenda to just plain irrelevant.


So she finished where you reside?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It isn’t that I believe vaccines do no more than keep me out of the hospital.   There is plenty to be said for reducing transmission by shortening the period over which a person is contagious.
> 
> But, that is a STEM discussion.  And, as you mentioned, you not going to hold up your end of a discussion on a STEM topic.  You are neither capable of understanding the material, nor willing to defer to those who do.   I didn’t have the option of discussing the impact of an X% reduction in duration of infectiousness.
> 
> So I picked a point which is unarguable and easy to understand: people don’t like being hospitalized, NHS doesn’t like paying for unnecessary hospital visits, and the vaccine is reducing hospitalization numbers.  It’s a baby argument, but it was enough.
> 
> If you want to be taken out of the baby arguments bucket, then drop the pretense that you understand everything better than those “experts”.


I think for most of us that baby argument isn't compelling enough for people to lose their jobs or livelihoods over it.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> The nutter routine is blatantly obvious.


Is this obvious as well? 
If you get vaccinated you can still affect others!!!! 
So how can getting vaccinated be different, its not! it is your body...she is talking out of both sides. 
If vaccination eliminated the virus like MMR or any of the other vaccinations that are actually eliminate the ability to catch or spread the virus, you could have an argument, but when you can still get and spread the Rona, you have nothing!


----------



## soccersc

@dad4 @GoldenGate @Hüsker Dü 
Your own people are realizing the government is only about themselves!! But go ahead keep on saying what a great job the yare doing haha









						The Met Gala and the hubris of wealth
					

On the first Monday in May each year a spectacle of excess is staged in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City – the Met Gala. The red carpet rolls out for the billionaires and their hangers-on, the politicians and parasites, and the celebrities competing in what is known as the Oscars...



					www.wsws.org


----------



## watfly

soccersc said:


> @dad4 @GoldenGate @Hüsker Dü
> Your own people are realizing the government is only about themselves!! But go ahead keep on saying what a great job the yare doing haha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Met Gala and the hubris of wealth
> 
> 
> On the first Monday in May each year a spectacle of excess is staged in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City – the Met Gala. The red carpet rolls out for the billionaires and their hangers-on, the politicians and parasites, and the celebrities competing in what is known as the Oscars...
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsws.org


That's one of the better articles I've read in awhile.

The saddest part is Eric Adams.  I was cautiously optimistic he would be better than DeBlasio (which is a super low bar) but he is just more of the same (I think it was DH who warned me).  While his city burns, he's attending the Gridiron Club dinner in DC, Dave Chappelle's show in LA and of course the $35,000 a ticket Met Gala.  Maybe it doesn't materially impact his ability to run NYC, but it certainly is bad optics and clearly reflects what his priorities are.


----------



## Desert Hound

As time goes on...we are seeing the disastrous consequences of lockdowns, school closures, nonsense rules, etc.

This article comments on the NY Times article regarding the damage caused to student education by school closures.









						NY Times: Research shows 'remote learning was a failure' driven primarily by Democratic partisanship (Update)
					






					hotair.com
				




"Were many of these problems avoidable? The evidence suggests that they were. Extended school closures appear to have done much more harm than good, *and many school administrators probably could have recognized as much by the fall of 2020*."

"On average, students who attended in-person school for nearly all of 2020-21 lost about 20 percent worth of a typical school year’s math learning during the study’s two-year window…

But students who stayed home for most of 2020-21 fared much worse. On average, they lost the equivalent of about 50 percent of a typical school year’s math learning during the study’s two-year window…"

@Dad was a cheerleader for school closures.

And yet by May or June 2020 we already KNEW that there was no risk to kids or college students. The data clearly showed that. And yet places like CA closed most if not all universities to in person learning. A substantial percentage of elementary and high schools were closed.

And we knew they were fine and would be fine. 

My kids like most lost their spring semester in 2020. Fortunately they were back in school full time in the fall. Guess what happened? No teachers died, no kids died. And while nothing bad happened something great did....they were in school learning full time. Millions of other kids got screwed.


----------



## Desert Hound

By the way at the bottom of the article above, they have posts/comments from critics of DeSantis regarding him opening schools in the fall of 2020. As you read those....remember some on this board acted in a similar manner claiming it was a bad idea to open schools.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> By the way at the bottom of the article above, they have posts/comments from critics of DeSantis regarding him opening schools in the fall of 2020. As you read those....remember some on this board acted in a similar manner claiming it was a bad idea to open schools.


Said it was a bad idea or said it was best to leave it up to the local school boards?


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Said it was a bad idea or said it was best to leave it up to the local school boards?


I guess your take is it was a good idea to screw kids and keep the schools closed?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> As time goes on...we are seeing the disastrous consequences of lockdowns, school closures, nonsense rules, etc.
> 
> This article comments on the NY Times article regarding the damage caused to student education by school closures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY Times: Research shows 'remote learning was a failure' driven primarily by Democratic partisanship (Update)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hotair.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Were many of these problems avoidable? The evidence suggests that they were. Extended school closures appear to have done much more harm than good, *and many school administrators probably could have recognized as much by the fall of 2020*."
> 
> "On average, students who attended in-person school for nearly all of 2020-21 lost about 20 percent worth of a typical school year’s math learning during the study’s two-year window…
> 
> But students who stayed home for most of 2020-21 fared much worse. On average, they lost the equivalent of about 50 percent of a typical school year’s math learning during the study’s two-year window…"
> 
> @Dad was a cheerleader for school closures.
> 
> And yet by May or June 2020 we already KNEW that there was no risk to kids or college students. The data clearly showed that. And yet places like CA closed most if not all universities to in person learning. A substantial percentage of elementary and high schools were closed.
> 
> And we knew they were fine and would be fine.
> 
> My kids like most lost their spring semester in 2020. Fortunately they were back in school full time in the fall. Guess what happened? No teachers died, no kids died. And while nothing bad happened something great did....they were in school learning full time. Millions of other kids got screwed.


I think the pro-school closure groups fell into two categories 1) those that wanted to exploit Covid to further there own interests or narrative (like school unions), and 2) those that were overcome by their own fear of Covid.  I can't imagine that anyone supported closures because they were too stupid to understand the negative impacts to children.  That takes a whole other level of stupid.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I think the pro-school closure groups fell into two categories 1) those that wanted to exploit Covid to further there own interests or narrative (like school unions), and 2) those that were overcome by their own fear of Covid.  I can't imagine that anyone supported closures because they were too stupid to understand the negative impacts to children.  That takes a whole other level of stupid.


It is exactly those 2 categories that people fell into. Category 2 were unwilling or too scared to look at the actual data.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> It is exactly those 2 categories that people fell into. Category 2 were unwilling or too scared to look at the actual data.


or looked at the data and had incredibly low risk tolerances.  You remember the argument that near zero is not absolute zero.


----------



## what-happened

crush said:


> This is crazy.  The whole cruise ship is fully jabbed and over 200 people get Covid and have to sit in hotel in Seattle and make no calls.  Fully jabbed is two jabs plus at least 2 boosters and they still get Covid.  I am at a lost for words.  I think we should do a cruise for folks with no jabs and see how many get Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carnival Cruise Ship passengers say COVID overwhelmed ship
> 
> 
> Passengers on a Carnival Cruise Ship that docked Tuesday in Seattle say more than 100 people aboard the ship tested positive for COVID-19 and the ship was overwhelmed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com


I wonder what the emergency was?  I suspect if given the option, fully vaxxed quadrupled boosted cruisers would rather get covid than norovirus.  just sayin.  

Did someone get paid to write this article?


----------



## crush

*CDC probing mysterious liver disease suspected in children's deaths*
*CDC says two dozen states have reported suspected cases*

Hmm, what could it be from?


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I think for most of us that baby argument isn't compelling enough for people to lose their jobs or livelihoods over it.


It's a petri dish argument you overhear in labs by techs who think they are really, really smart, quibbling over data that is no longer important to an outcome.  

large trials have never occurred.  There is plenty of could, may words in the studies cited.  Not alot of appetite to revisit this type of stuff.  Way too many holes in pharma trials.  But "STEM" folks really dig any type of data.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> I wonder what the emergency was?  I suspect if given the option, fully vaxxed quadrupled boosted cruisers would rather get covid than norovirus.  just sayin.
> 
> Did someone get paid to write this article?


I have no idea if someone got paid to write.  I just read the headline and slapped on here.  Husker Du is now saying any meme I post I support 100% everything the meme author believes in, even when they were young......lol.  I just trip out no one who is healthy and not jabbed is allowed to board the great ships of the seas.  No jab=No Cruise.....lol.  Jabs + Boosters + Fully Jabbed Cruise liner= Covid 19.  It's like my pals who got two jabs and thought life would go back to normal.  Nope, they were told to get their mask on regardless and get the booster as well or their also anti-vaxxers.


----------



## Desert Hound

what-happened said:


> But "STEM" folks really dig any type of data.


Too bad the ones that claim to be STEM here have an amazing inability to look at the real world.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Over the course of this thread, from my viewpoint Grace has moved from well-informed but with an obvious agenda to just plain irrelevant.


After I read this I realized I have never been so happy not to have a drink in my mouth.


----------



## watfly

what-happened said:


> I wonder what the emergency was?  I suspect if given the option, fully vaxxed quadrupled boosted cruisers would rather get covid than norovirus.  just sayin.
> 
> Did someone get paid to write this article?


Rampant norovirus is one of many reasons why I'd never go on a cruise.  The thought of being stuck on a floating hotel for days, sounds like a nightmare to me even without Montezuma's Revenge.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> I wonder what the emergency was?  I suspect if given the option, fully vaxxed quadrupled boosted cruisers would rather get covid than norovirus.  just sayin.


Absolutely, and it's not even close for me.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Too bad the ones that claim to be STEM here have an amazing inability to look at the real world.


It might be the difference between being "book smart" vs "street smart".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Rampant norovirus is one of many reasons why I'd never go on a cruise.  The thought of being stuck on a floating hotel for days, sounds like a nightmare to me.


I've come to find it less and less appealing as an option as I have aged. My parents did like the cruises, though - said the food was great. I'll take a rental car and "cruise" through Tuscany/Umbria or Provence.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> "Were many of these problems avoidable? The evidence suggests that they were. Extended school closures appear to have done much more harm than good, *and many school administrators probably could have recognized as much by the fall of 2020*."


Do you mean around the time Florida sent its children back to school and was universally criticized by Team Fear?


----------



## baldref

watfly said:


> Rampant norovirus is one of many reasons why I'd never go on a cruise.  The thought of being stuck on a floating hotel for days, sounds like a nightmare to me even without Montezuma's Revenge.


Love the cruises. most relaxing vacations ever. Upgrade to a nice balcony cabin and stare at the ocean with a beer. But, to each their own.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I've come to find it less and less appealing as an option as I have aged. My parents did like the cruises, though - said the food was great. I'll take a rental car and "cruise" through Tuscany/Umbria or Provence.


I went on two cruises and hated them both time.  I give the first one a C and the other one a D for grades.  I don't like crowds for one thing.  I had to take pink pills to keep me from throwing up each day.  I'm not a drinker.  However, I do love food and that was my favorite part if I were to be honest. Captains dinner was cool but the seafood sucked and was shipped from Boston.  I have no problem not being able to board a Princess Cruise because I'm not fully jabbed.  I did want to go to a concert for my wife's bday last December but we were denied access because of no vax.  Oh well, life is not fair yet to those who didn't get the jab so they could go on a cruise or go to college


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The thought of being stuck on a floating hotel for days, sounds like a nightmare to me even without Montezuma's Revenge.


When I travel I don't want to be confined with 1000s of my close personal friends. And then the last thing I want to is go ashore with them and be stuck paying for overpriced drinks/tours. 

I have been to about 40 countries for mainly work. When I first started traveling I used to never book a hotel where I was flying into. Would land and figure it out. Lonely Planet guidebooks were very helpful. 

Did the same thing even on our honeymoon. Just had flights into Madrid and flights out of Barcelona.


----------



## watfly

baldref said:


> Love the cruises. most relaxing vacations ever. Upgrade to a nice balcony cabin and stare at the ocean with a beer. But, to each their own.


I prefer staring at the water with a fishing rod in my hand.  I'd do a beer in the other hand but its tough when I'm fly fishing.  So I just save the beers until I'm off the water.  Cheers.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean around the time Florida sent its children back to school and was universally criticized by Team Fear?


Yep. 

FL was going to kill teachers and kids we were told. 

Reality was a bit different.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> When I travel I don't want to be confined with 1000s of my close personal friends. And then the last thing I want to is go ashore with them and be stuck paying for overpriced drinks/tours.
> 
> I have been to about 40 countries for mainly work. When I first started traveling I used to never book a hotel where I was flying into. Would land and figure it out. Lonely Planet guidebooks were very helpful.
> 
> Did the same thing even on our honeymoon. Just had flights into Madrid and flights out of Barcelona.


Trues story Hound.  My buddy and his wife went on a cruise to Mexico.  He went with a group of tourist to a "secret spot tour" when they docked.  Well, it was all staged to rob them all at gun point on a small private road.  The tour guide was in on it.  I love your style of just showing up.  I got some business to attend to in Spain around Christmas time.  I will PM you for advice on places to tour.  I want local deals and not tourist deals....lol!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> Yep.
> 
> FL was going to kill teachers and kids we were told.
> 
> Reality was a bit different.


With the changes made to the way things were reported, or not, we may never know the truth. The perfect cover to allow them, and you, to claim whatever you want.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> With the changes made to the way things were reported, or not, we may never know the truth. The perfect cover to allow them, and you, to claim whatever you want.


Like the use of “with” versus “of”?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Yep.
> 
> FL was going to kill teachers and kids we were told.
> 
> Reality was a bit different.


If it didn't happen in a lab, it's not real.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> With the changes made to the way things were reported, or not, we may never know the truth. The perfect cover to allow them, and you, to claim whatever you want.


We do know the truth. 

People like you and dad and the press freaked out about kids going to school in the fall of 2020. 

It was a dangerous thing we were told. 

The reality? 

Opening schools was the right thing to do. The dire predictions of disaster did not come true.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> We do know the truth.
> 
> People like you and dad and the press freaked out about kids going to school in the fall of 2020.
> 
> It was a dangerous thing we were told.
> 
> The reality?
> 
> Opening schools was the right thing to do. The dire predictions of disaster did not come true.


Dad wishes to remind you that his main point in 2020 was closing the bars, restaurants, and casinos.  Indoor spaces where you talk with your mask off.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> We do know the truth.
> 
> People like you and dad and the press freaked out about kids going to school in the fall of 2020.
> 
> It was a dangerous thing we were told.
> 
> The reality?
> 
> Opening schools was the right thing to do. The dire predictions of disaster did not come true.


So you can show me where I “freaked out”? I have stayed clear of the school discussion.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Dad wishes to remind you that his main point in 2020 was closing the bars, restaurants, and casinos.  Indoor spaces where you talk with your mask off.


Please....you were a big fan of school closures in the fall of 2020. 

Don't pretend now you were not a part of the problem.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Please....you were a big fan of school closures in the fall of 2020.
> 
> Don't pretend now you were not a part of the problem.


My school opinion was that we should hold class outside.  

You ought to remember.  You spent time mocking me for it.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> My school opinion was that we should hold class outside.
> 
> You ought to remember.  You spent time mocking me for it.


I did mock you for it. Because saying hold it outside essentially means no in person learning if you look at how many schools are set up.

In other words it isn't practical.

And further...in CA in many places while they cancelled in class due to union pressure, they still had kids come in and hired people to watch them. So on one hand they argued it was unsafe for kids and teachers...and on the other hand had kids come in and hired non union baby sitters essentially.

So no your outside argument carries no water when it wasn't practical.

Kind of like arguing close restaurants and then saying takeout should do the trick


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> I did mock you for it. Because saying hold it outside essentially means no in person learning if you look at how many schools are set up.
> 
> In other words it isn't practical.
> 
> And further...in CA in many places while they cancelled in class due to union pressure, they still had kids come in and hired people to watch them. So on one hand they argued it was unsafe for kids and teachers...and on the other hand had kids come in and hired non union baby sitters essentially.
> 
> So no your outside argument carries no water when it wasn't practical.
> 
> Kind of like arguing close restaurants and then saying takeout should do the trick


When did I ever say a word in favor of CTA or NEA on this?  

Nowhere did I advocate for opening schools as communal child care.  That was someone elses idea, and it was just as stupid as it sounds.


----------



## crush

Dad and his crew are hell bent on destroying us.  94% of us are concerned or upset about inflation.  These killers have killed people through deceit and trickery, killing jobs, killing small business and killing dreams.  Their dream killers and you better take their jabs, wear a mask or eat outside. We the people are the only people who can do something about this.  We already know what Dad, Husker Du and Espoal would do.  My friends have been fired, I can't get my biz off the ground and my dd is locked out of college unless she jabs.  My family and I can only do so much.  The lap top from hells PW should wake the rest of you up about reality!!!  I guess we now know what these people are into.......


----------



## crush

San Diego Comic Con Mask News!

*“In an effort to create a gathering that accommodates our stakeholders safely … everyone attending Comic-Con will be required to wear an approved face covering regardless of vaccination status,” the update on Comic-Con’s website read. *


----------



## crush

Look's like organ harvesting of little babies is what this is all about.  We have some of the most selfish people in the world living right now.  Big time business opportunities in selling baby parts and they sell "tissues" to Big U to use as experiments.  I feel sick to my tummy and I'm shocked at watching depositions of cold hearted women who make money selling baby parts.  We have become a very callous and sick group of people and we need a big wake up call.  Karma is coming!!!


----------



## crush

Keep calling the babies a fetus and specimen and we never fix this bullshit.  They don't want to crush baby "crush" body parts so they sell crush's body parts to his favorite Big U.  Hey @watfly, do you now see what the fuck is going on now?  Seriously, everyone of us need to protect all life and their limbs and organs.  These people are heartless and cruel.  They take advantage of women in a tough spot.  I'm willing to debate any of you about this subject btw.  @espola, ready to debate now or still ignore me grandpa?  We are a cold and hard hearted nation.  Please everyone, wake up to the horror show we all live in.  Hunter's PW about say's it all


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Rumor on Snopes and other far right online news places is that the VP of Pfizer was arrested for fraud after the Pfizer document dump.  Is this just gossip and BS rumor mill stuff or true?  No news from MSM but I would figure that blackout would go on as along as possible, if the news is real. Soon all the drips will drip out and then the big red wave!!!  t paraded out Dr. Oz and the top dog over at J & J last night at his rally and people didn't cheer at all.  You could here boos and not cheers. Odd optics are sure going on and i have no clue who is acting out a script or who is caught up in a Webb of lies.  Q said t had to play both sides for purely optical reasons and that now makes sense to me.  My conspiracy pal thinks t is the actual anti-Christ and is tricking all of us to worship him and his way of MAGA.  It's extremism at it's core and these MAGA's need to go away Joe says.  Thoughts fellas and Grace on the latest?


----------



## crush

An act is done "willfully" *if done voluntarily and intentionally and with the specific intent to do something the law forbids* 

Willful negligence is defined as *conduct that deliberately disregards the health, safety and welfare of another person*.


----------



## crush

URGENT PFIZER NEWS: "Pfizer and the CDC committed fraud for* willfully* withholding critical data from the public resu*lting in harm and death to thousands*. The CDC is spreading medical misinformation. What they have done is obscene. We are completely vindicated," Dr. Malone said.  And all the others, including the witch Doctor that Husker Du makes fun of. She by the way right and Husker Du was wrong and so was Dad and espola. Follow Truth you guys and you to can see   Happy Saturday to all of you.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> With the changes made to the way things were reported, or not, we may never know the truth. The perfect cover to allow them, and you, to claim whatever you want.


Isn't that funny how that works.  how things were/are/weren't reported?  have you been taking peeks at the pharma docs while drinking coffee?


----------



## crush

My foster/adopted mom won Mother of the Year after she officially adopted me.  What made Bette amazing was she cared for the pregnant mother and helped her through a very difficult and emotional time.  Her first order of business was to convince the soon to be mother to keep her baby or find a home for baby. That was what my mom preached, "have baby and raise the baby yourself or allow for others to care for the infant."  All her mothers lived with her until baby is born.  She gave all moms 6 months after birth to change their minds and keep their baby.  All the kids that my mom cared for she ended up adopting.  She called us, "the crazy 8."  We were all crazy and had some underlying health concerns.  For example, I was deaf when I was born.  I want to shout out a Happy Mothers Day to all the moms.  We are nothing without you.


----------



## crush

Breaking News: 1223 people died within the first 28 days of the Pfizer trials and it was still approved.  Plus, most of these people died alone and many were children and their mom's could not care for them 

Save Ukraine News: The BBC has video evidence and is reporting that a place in Ukraine was used as a baby factory to harvest Stem Cells among other sick things and Ukraine is the Mothership of this evil trade of human trafficking.

Baby is conceived in Ukraine for one purpose and that purpose is to harvest it's organs and then be deposed of, just like when we kill baby in the womb.  No difference folks, trust me.  Video proof is now here for all to see plus 21 week old fetus can survive, with help of course and some love.  The baby is being used for parts to help some sick and selfish adults trying to make money or live longer by using the babies blood, their brain, their organs and their limbs.  Other babies who skip this horrible start to a new life on earth are sold for up to $250,000 and now the baby can be a slave for whatever the buyer so chooses.  You shall all learn the truth soon.  Bottom-line, we need to all care for all the kids and all the widows and elderly who need our help.  I love you all and thank you for putting up with my nonsense and all my Coo Cooness.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

This might be one of the more interesting articles I have read recently.









						Won’t Get Fooled Again | City Journal
					

After the pandemic, Americans should never let public-health authorities deprive them of their liberties.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> This might be one of the more interesting articles I have read recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Won’t Get Fooled Again | City Journal
> 
> 
> After the pandemic, Americans should never let public-health authorities deprive them of their liberties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


The failure to do this has caused damage to the scientific community and further divided us as a nation.

"By honestly communicating the risks and considering the overall public good, they could have tamped down needless fear and united the country behind their efforts."


----------



## crush

'Ladies, If You Get Pregnant, Run To The Abortion Clinic & Have That Little Bastard Sucked Right Out
					

Sickening




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Yikes!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

Some key quotes from the article. 

"Instead, they proceeded to ignore their own plans as well as the basic principles of science and public health. Leaders of the CDC terrified the public with worst-case scenarios based on computer models—and then used those blatantly unrealistic projections to claim unprecedented powers and experiment with untested strategies. T*heir pre-Covid planning scenarios had rejected business and school closures even for a pandemic as deadly as the Spanish flu of 1918*, but when the Covid-19 pandemic came, they imposed lockdowns without even pretending to weigh the hypothetical benefits against the tangible economic, medical, and social costs—not to mention the intangible costs in emotional hardship and lost liberty."

"*Randomized clinical trials conducted before the pandemic had repeatedly shown that masks did little or no good at preventing viral spread*, but the CDC proclaimed them effective against Covid and promoted mask mandates nationwide. As the pandemic wore on, federal health officials looked for excuses to justify the lockdowns and mandates, hyping flawed studies and cherry-picked data, while failing to sponsor rigorous research testing their strategies."

"They stubbornly ignored the hundreds of studies around the world showing that, except in a few isolated places, lockdowns did not reduce Covid mortality and that mask mandates were generally ineffective and senselessly cruel in classrooms"

"When properly adjusted for the age of the population, the cumulative Covid mortality rate in Florida has been below the national average. As of late March, Florida’s rate was the 19th lowest among the states, only a little higher than California’s, which was the 14th lowest. And by a more important indicator—the rate of excess mortality, a measure of how many more deaths than normal from all causes occurred during the pandemic—Florida has fared slightly better overall than California, and notably better among the young. The rate of excess mortality among young adults has been consistently lower in Florida than in California, where the strict lockdowns presumably contributed to deaths from other causes. If California’s cumulative rate of excess mortality equaled Florida’s, about 5,000 fewer Californians would have died during the pandemic. And if California’s unemployment rate equaled Florida’s last year, 500,000 fewer Californians would have been out of work."









						Won’t Get Fooled Again | City Journal
					

After the pandemic, Americans should never let public-health authorities deprive them of their liberties.




					www.city-journal.org


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Some key quotes from the article.
> 
> "Instead, they proceeded to ignore their own plans as well as the basic principles of science and public health. Leaders of the CDC terrified the public with worst-case scenarios based on computer models—and then used those blatantly unrealistic projections to claim unprecedented powers and experiment with untested strategies. T*heir pre-Covid planning scenarios had rejected business and school closures even for a pandemic as deadly as the Spanish flu of 1918*, but when the Covid-19 pandemic came, they imposed lockdowns without even pretending to weigh the hypothetical benefits against the tangible economic, medical, and social costs—not to mention the intangible costs in emotional hardship and lost liberty."
> 
> "*Randomized clinical trials conducted before the pandemic had repeatedly shown that masks did little or no good at preventing viral spread*, but the CDC proclaimed them effective against Covid and promoted mask mandates nationwide. As the pandemic wore on, federal health officials looked for excuses to justify the lockdowns and mandates, hyping flawed studies and cherry-picked data, while failing to sponsor rigorous research testing their strategies."
> 
> "They stubbornly ignored the hundreds of studies around the world showing that, except in a few isolated places, lockdowns did not reduce Covid mortality and that mask mandates were generally ineffective and senselessly cruel in classrooms"
> 
> "When properly adjusted for the age of the population, the cumulative Covid mortality rate in Florida has been below the national average. As of late March, Florida’s rate was the 19th lowest among the states, only a little higher than California’s, which was the 14th lowest. And by a more important indicator—the rate of excess mortality, a measure of how many more deaths than normal from all causes occurred during the pandemic—Florida has fared slightly better overall than California, and notably better among the young. The rate of excess mortality among young adults has been consistently lower in Florida than in California, where the strict lockdowns presumably contributed to deaths from other causes. If California’s cumulative rate of excess mortality equaled Florida’s, about 5,000 fewer Californians would have died during the pandemic. And if California’s unemployment rate equaled Florida’s last year, 500,000 fewer Californians would have been out of work."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Won’t Get Fooled Again | City Journal
> 
> 
> After the pandemic, Americans should never let public-health authorities deprive them of their liberties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


Now quote the part of the article that talks about over a million covid deaths.

Or do they ignore that little detail?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Walked past a girls' soccer game yesterday. Two players were wearing masks. This is part of "long COVID".


----------



## crush

Never give up!!!









						NEVER EVER GIVE UP!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## watfly

Reminder per the CDC:

*Comorbidities and other conditions*
_Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). The number of deaths that mention one or more of the conditions indicated is shown for all deaths involving COVID-19 and by age groups. For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death_. 

I think it is safe to say that Covid was a Darwin type of disease.  I'm just a simpleton but it seems if we had targeted our efforts on protecting those with comprising conditions our policies might have been more effective than targeting the healthy.  Lack of credibility was the single biggest failure in our policies.  I guess I should feel fortunate to have survived the "winter of death".


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Reminder per the CDC:
> 
> *Comorbidities and other conditions*
> _Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). The number of deaths that mention one or more of the conditions indicated is shown for all deaths involving COVID-19 and by age groups. For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death_.
> 
> I think it is safe to say that Covid was a Darwin type of disease.  I'm just a simpleton but it seems if we had targeted our efforts on protecting those with comprising conditions our policies might have been more effective than targeting the healthy.  Lack of credibility was the single biggest failure in our policies.  I guess I should feel fortunate to have survived the "winter of death".


watfly survived the winter of death and so did crush.  That was gnarly brah.  The summer of 2022 will get super insane and I hear their going for one more plandemic.  They want the kids!!!  This is all they got left in the chess move.  It was checkmate a long time ago and these fools were given a choice to surrender or finish out the match.  They chose the latter in hopes the good guys would make a mistake.  Not going to happen.  Have you watched the "Ghost in the machine?"


----------



## kickingandscreaming

More bad news for this neck of the woods.









						NYC could face ‘long-term decline’ of workers returning to offices over crime: advocate
					

Under 40% of Manhattan office workers currently go to their desks on an average week day, according to Partnership for New York City, a nonprofit group representing local business leaders.




					nypost.com


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Now quote the part of the article that talks about over a million covid deaths.
> 
> Or do they ignore that little detail?


Well, I suppose that a CDC correction in deaths helps that number a bit.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> This might be one of the more interesting articles I have read recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Won’t Get Fooled Again | City Journal
> 
> 
> After the pandemic, Americans should never let public-health authorities deprive them of their liberties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


IMO underlying this is a movement by some towards having a ruling class and a working class.  IE letting academics, experts, bureaucrats...those in the ivory towers to decide what is best for us and putting restrictions on free speech is a big part of it.     They preach diversity in race, gender and orientation but clamp down on diversity of opinion.  Your seeing a lot of it lately with their sentiment that you can't be Black and Republican.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> IMO underlying this is a movement by some towards having a ruling class and a working class.  IE letting academics, experts, bureaucrats...those in the ivory towers to decide what is best for us and putting restrictions on free speech is a big part of it.     They preach diversity in race, gender and orientation but clamp down on diversity of opinion.  Your seeing a lot of it lately with their sentiment that you can't be Black and Republican.


They are as bad as each other. Neither extreme wants an education system producing well educated critical thinkers, that's a politicians nightmare.

DeSantis signs bill mandating school lesson on communism | Miami Herald


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> They are as bad as each other. Neither extreme wants an education system producing well educated critical thinkers, that's a politicians nightmare.
> 
> DeSantis signs bill mandating school lesson on communism | Miami Herald


For someone who claims to be for free speech and anti-cancel culture, he sure implements policies to the contrary when he can use it to his advantage.  I will say he started out well but like many politicians he let the power and control get to his head.

Both sides seem to be wanting to teach things to children that are better left for college or later high school years.  Meanwhile we continue to fall behind on the three R's.  Of course, its even harder to learn when your not in school or "learning' remotely.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> For someone who claims to be for free speech and anti-cancel culture, he sure implements policies to the contrary when he can use it to his advantage.  I will say he started out well but like many politicians he let the power and control get to his head.
> 
> Both sides seem to be wanting to teach things to children that are better left for college or later high school years.  Meanwhile we continue to fall behind on the three R's.  Of course, its even harder to learn when your not in school or "learning' remotely.


----------



## crush

Gas is now at an all time high and Diesel is super, super hi and truckers have to pass that high cost of doing business to the receivers of the goods and then those business folks pass that high prices to do business to us, Mr. and Mrs. Consumer.  Forget inflation, get ready for the bubble to burst with recession and then another burst of depression.  My old house in Temecula is almost worth $1,000,000 now.  Oh boy, woulda coulda shoulda moment if I just rented that sucker out and sold it right now.  2200 sq ft with 1/2 acre with a nice pool, but come on man, no way a million, really? This is not looking right you guys.  Rent is doubling and in some places landlords see a quick way to make up for some losses by charging triple then two years ago.  The plan that is to destroy our old system of $$$ and how to make a buck is happening before all of us.  This is not easy to go through.  Buckle up everyone, this ride is about to go off the rails.  Choo Choo!!!!


----------



## crush

*Just Look at It..........

*

The great Mr. Ramsey with advice for how to handle the last few years, especially the next 12 months and beyond.  Buckle up gents and the great grace T.  Love you sister and I will soon be joining you and all the others who lurk and read the newest and latest.   

*Dave Ramsey shares the secrets of managing stress over rising costs of travel, gas and more*
*Personal finance expert and best-selling author reveals a path to sanity amid the chaos

‘Write it down — look at it’ **Coach Dave *

*"OK, so gas costs more [right now]," Ramsey said. "So I'm going to put that down in my budget." *

Two years ago gas was priced at $400 a month.  Now it's almost $1000 a month, just look it and deal with it.  Let it smack in you the face and wake your ass up!!!

Question from a friend of mind for Dave or any smart financial wiz on the forum:  "Rent has tripled [right now] in some places where I live crush. You have to be fully jabbed to participate and be in good standing with the cool people.  A steak is triple the cost.  I am in a month to month and the landlord just gave 60 days to leave.  He can double the rent on the next sucker and I don't blame him one bit.  I am wondering if I should quit my job in SoCal and move somewhere else where the cost of trying to make it is a lot less? Everything is more and I am getting less for my buck these day in SoCal."  Thanks, Jesse


----------



## crush

*Bill Gates says he has COVID-19, is experiencing mild symptoms*
*The billionaire philanthropist said he will isolate until he is healthy again* 



*"I've tested positive for COVID. I'm experiencing mild symptoms and am following the experts' advice by isolating until I'm healthy again," Gates wrote

"I’m fortunate to be vaccinated and boosted and have access to testing and great medical care," Gates wrote.

"I have no need for a Covid 19 test. I took advice from a very good Doctor and one of the experts in health ((Stanford stud btw)) and me wife   I never took the jabs and have not been sick since the Rona came to me in Seattle Jan 20, 2020," crush wrote

"I'm fortunate to be non-vaccinated and I will never take a booster.  I'm grateful that I have no symptoms and no need for a test and I have amazing access to medical care," crush wrote.*

I will make a big prediction for the Fall of the Cabal.  The WHO will vote to overrule all Sovereign Nations Health Orders and they will try and enforce their BS on all of us this Fall, right before the Mid-Terms.  It's the final battle.  Two years ago was just a beta test to see how easy it is to fool the masses.  I will say many of you failed the beta test, FYI.  Let's see what you all do this Fall when the mother of all plandemics hit our shores with a massive wave of BS!!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

We have known for decades about what they do related to a virus. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1523675100247203841


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> We have known for decades about what they do related to a virus.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1523675100247203841


Garrett currently advocates masks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347582132424761350
She also refers to your claim as “FALSE DISINFORMATION”.  Caps in original, so she’s speaking your language.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Garrett currently advocates masks.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347582132424761350
> She also refers to your claim as “FALSE DISINFORMATION”.  Caps in original, so she’s speaking your language.


"Currently" is the operative word. Gotta love science.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> "Currently" is the operative word. Gotta love science.


It's not like it's a religion or something that has to go back centuries or more to rationalize current behavior.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> "Currently" is the operative word. Gotta love science.


Science isn’t final.  No matter how good your lab work is, if you ask the wrong question, you still get the wrong answer.  And you don’t even get to find out it was the wrong question until someone else asks the right question.

Hound’s video is of someone asking the wrong question.   Not a big deal.  There have been entire companies built on asking what turned out to be the wrong question.

This is just a special case where some people like the wrong answer.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Science isn’t final.


Exactly, and rushed science along with politicized science, is bad science.  Lab science also doesn't equal real world science.  See J&J vaccine for a current example of both my comments.  Mandating medical treatment based on new science is neither sound science or good policy.


----------



## crush

"Thanks Joe."  Kids wrote


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Exactly, and rushed science along with politicized science, is bad science.  Lab science also doesn't equal real world science.  See J&J vaccine for a current example of both my comments.  Mandating medical treatment based on new science is neither sound science or good policy.


There’s always livestock dewormer and Sonic Burger!


----------



## met61

watfly said:


> Exactly, and rushed science along with politicized science, is bad science.  Lab science also doesn't equal real world science.  See J&J vaccine for a current example of both my comments.  Mandating medical treatment based on new science is neither sound science or good policy.


...I'd say this video pretty much sums up this thread...maybe it's time to kill it.

BTW, record overdose deaths in 2021.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> There’s always livestock dewormer and Sonic Burger!


I don't think you can get blood clots from eating one Sonic Burger, I think it would take substantially more.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I don't think you can get blood clots from eating one Sonic Burger, I think it would take substantially more.


Super size it!


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Garrett currently advocates masks.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347582132424761350
> She also refers to your claim as “FALSE DISINFORMATION”.  Caps in original, so she’s speaking your language.


She does currently advocate it. It is political. 

When it wasn't, she was very clear that they did nothing related to stopping a virus. 

The science hasn't changed. What has changed is the politics and how individuals and orgs get funded.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> There’s always livestock dewormer and Sonic Burger!


Do us all a favor and disappear for awhile, maybe until 
after your Pedo Party gets demoted to the trash bin on
November 8th....


----------



## dad4

You 





Desert Hound said:


> She does currently advocate it. It is political.
> 
> When it wasn't, she was very clear that they did nothing related to stopping a virus.
> 
> The science hasn't changed. What has changed is the politics and how individuals and orgs get funded.


You actually think the science on respiratory aerosols hasn't changed since 2018.

Huh.

Yeowza.

What do you think they've been working on the last two years?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You
> You actually think the science on respiratory aerosols hasn't changed since 2018.
> 
> Huh.
> 
> Yeowza.
> 
> What do you think they've been working on the last two years?


Ignoring what has been discovered and believing only they can hold the real truth is seated in a long history of conspiratorial beliefs.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You
> You actually think the science on respiratory aerosols hasn't changed since 2018.
> 
> Huh.
> 
> Yeowza.
> 
> What do you think they've been working on the last two years?


Whether eggs are good for you or not?

As the the video from @watfly shows, wait a couple years if you want a different answer.

Again, this all goes to credibility. She was emphatic in her assessment about masks not being useful. Good luck convincing people who are willing to question what really changed, why were you so sure before and why those pesky mandate / non-mandate look the same that this time you are really right.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Whether eggs are good for you or not?
> 
> As the the video from @watfly shows, wait a couple years if you want a different answer.
> 
> Again, this all goes to credibility. She was emphatic in her assessment about masks not being useful. Good luck convincing people who are willing to question what really changed, why were you so sure before and why those pesky mandate / non-mandate look the same that this time you are really right.


Convinced?  No one will be convinced.

One side is saying you have to eat your vegetables.  The other side is saying eat whatever you want.

People will believe the one they want to believe.

That doesn't mean the chocolate cake diet will help you lose weight.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Convinced?  No one will be convinced.
> 
> One side is saying you have to eat your vegetables.  The other side is saying eat whatever you want.
> 
> People will believe the one they want to believe.
> 
> That doesn't mean the chocolate cake diet will help you lose weight.


No one will be convinced because she doesn’t have credibility.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> No one will be convinced because she doesn’t have credibility.


And, she was the one who said a chocolate cake diet will help you lose weight to begin with.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

__ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/406596341571946


----------



## Hüsker Dü




----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13529


Is this all you got after all these years?  Oh Husker Du and that old, bitter and resentful Grandpa Espola.  I sit back and lurk now and just read what you and your sidekick spew on here.  What you wrote yesterday was disgusting by the way and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Seriously, seek help man.  Both of you have issues towards women.  I hope you both figure out that we need the ladies on earth and we need to love them.


----------



## crush

@Everyone.  Let's all get back on topic and get this thread to a million views.  Let's have serious debate about the last two years and what we see for our future.  If you have 17 minutes to spare, please watch this Vax Failure Video from 17,000 Docs from around the world.  The WHO is voting soon to makes us all Global Guinea Pigs and their Global Slaves  









						VAX FAILURE: Drs Malone, McCullough, Yeadon & Cole Sound Alarm About Vaccines & Govt Tyranny
					

Join the leading researchers on https://GroupDiscover.com to find the best videos from across the censorship-resistant internet platforms like Odysee, Rumble, LBRY, Bitchute & Brighteon.    Add me on these great platforms: https://rokfin.com/timtr…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

If you got the chops to take 9 seconds out of your life, you need to take a hard look at what is inside of these mask that Dad wants us all to wear, it will scare you as did me   I dare you to watch a crush video.....lol.  The one for 17 minutes is 100% important.









						Terrifying...
					

✶ ✯ ► ► FEARLESS NATION ◄ ◄  ✯ ✶ We are all explorers trying to find ourselves... Some people around you will not understand your journey. They don’t need to; it’s not for them.  Odysee ▶ https://odysee.com/$/invite/@FEARLESS_ONE:8 - https://od…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/406596341571946


Which is why the results of science, especially new science, shouldn't be mandated for the general public.  Regardless, science isn't fact, science is simply a process and in many cases what we heard during the pandemic hadn't gone through the scientific process and was just "ivory tower" opinion.  Science also isn't monolithic, it's rare that there is consensus in science.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Which is why the results of science, especially new science, shouldn't be mandated for the general public.  Regardless, science isn't fact, science is simply a process and in many cases what we heard during the pandemic hadn't gone through the scientific process and was just "ivory tower" opinion.  Science also isn't monolithic, it's rare that there is consensus in science.


All true.  I had a debate with a crazy Science Teacher back in grade school days.  Her breath was gnarly, that's all I can about her in those regards.  The class called her, "Smelly."  She was a known atheist, in love with Darwin, lived by herself and studied rocks and the earth for a living.  100% for abortion and called babies in the womb a fetus and one big clump of cells in our class.  "No she didn't," I said to myself at first and then I went off on her in front of the class and I aksed her a few questions that she couldn't answer.  I told her in front of the class that she was wrong and that a baby in the womb is a living and a breathing baby and not a clump of cells like she is proposing to the class.  With cameras and Ultra Sound of today, we now know that crush was right and the smelly Science Teacher was 100% wrong.  I also told her that God the Creator created all this life and we are not suppose to end the life before it comes out of mama.  No animal does that.  Black Widow, yes  This is basic Human Science 101 I told her watfly. She got so mad and all red in the face and had a loss of words that to this day it makes me smile in my heart. After that day, she had it out for me the rest of the Semester. I got a D in her Earth Science class and she even tried to pin me for smoking weed before her 8am class. I got sent to the Principle office early am because she smelt weed or something on me. I talked to the man in charge and it was no harm no foul and I went back to class and just smiled at her. It was at this time I knew for sure we were all being brainwashed in the system. I told my pals and they told me I made a good argument on life in the womb


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> And, she was the one who said a chocolate cake diet will help you lose weight to begin with.


Not too far off.  There was a time when dietitians were trained to just count calories.  They thought you could lose weight on a chocolate cake diet, as long as your portions are small enough.

Then the science changed.  They figured out that the tiny portion chocolate cake diet will never work, because it will leave you hungry.  No one can keep to it.

Which is where we are now.  The chocolate cake diet doesn’t work.  We know it doesn‘t work.  But people keep posting chocolate cake diet videos because they think kale is yucky.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Not too far off.  There was a time when dietitians were trained to just count calories.  They thought you could lose weight on a chocolate cake diet, as long as your portions are small enough.
> 
> Then the science changed.  They figured out that the tiny portion chocolate cake diet will never work, because it will leave you hungry.  No one can keep to it.
> 
> Which is where we are now.  The chocolate cake diet doesn’t work.  We know it doesn‘t work.  But people keep posting chocolate cake diet videos because they think kale is yucky.


Watch the video from the 17,000 Docs, daddy man of 4 kids.  You are spewing false information and it needs to stop and stop now.  Just stop it!!!


----------



## crush

Gates is a major investor in vaccines, we have a "pandemic".

Gates is one of the the largest farm land owner in America, we have a food shortage crisis.

Gates invests in artificial breast milk labs, now there's a formula shortage


----------



## crush

*5 jabs in 2 years is not a vaccination program. It's an IQ test.  So, how did you guys score?  Also, did you wear a mask when told? How many times were you asked to put a mask on or refused service if no mask?  *


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Which is where we are now.  The chocolate cake diet doesn’t work.  We know it doesn‘t work.  But people keep posting chocolate cake diet videos because they think kale is yucky.


I like both - my kale with some vinaigrette and my chocolate cake in moderation.



dad4 said:


> Then the science changed.  They figured out that the tiny portion chocolate cake diet will never work, because it will leave you hungry.  No one can keep to it.


Your answer to this is interesting. In general, calorie counting does work. You (and science) are saying that people are not self-disciplined enough to handle the hunger associated with eating sugar and non-whole grains to stick to their calorie count. It's not even worth asking/expecting them to accept some feelings of hunger and not satiating that hunger until the next meal time. So, science says you can't lose weight on the chocolate cake diet because individuals aren't self-disciplined enough to do so. However, science appears to treat the use of masks quite differently despite the fact that there is much less correlation between masking and virus containment than there is between calories and weight control. Why is that? Calorie counting has many more benefits than wearing a mask when you consider both. It improves survival on multiple fronts, including surviving a virus. Weight control also improves your quality of life. Hard to make that argument for a mask. Weight control improves appearance, whereas a mask only does that in some cases. The approach science takes here is inconsistent.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I like both - my kale with some vinaigrette and my chocolate cake in moderation.
> 
> 
> Your answer to this is interesting. In general, calorie counting does work. You (and science) are saying that people are not self-disciplined enough to handle the hunger associated with eating sugar and non-whole grains to stick to their calorie count. It's not even worth asking/expecting them to accept some feelings of hunger and not satiating that hunger until the next meal time. So, science says you can't lose weight on the chocolate cake diet because individuals aren't self-disciplined enough to do so. However, science appears to treat the use of masks quite differently despite the fact that there is much less correlation between masking and virus containment than there is between calories and weight control. Why is that? Calorie counting has many more benefits than wearing a mask when you consider both. It improves survival on multiple fronts, including surviving a virus. Weight control also improves your quality of life. Hard to make that argument for a mask. Weight control improves appearance, whereas a mask only does that in some cases. The approach science takes here is inconsistent.


It’s pretty much the same logic, and the same style of experiment.

For food, take a large group of people who want to lose weight.   Teach all of them to calorie count.   Advise half of them to try the chocolate cake diet, and advise the other half try the kale and vinaigrette diet.  Measure how they do.  

For masks, take a large group of people who would rather not get covid.  Teach them all to socially distance.  Advise half the villages to wear surgical masks.   The other half of the villages get a lecture with no masks.  Measure how they do.

You will find out that kale is better than chocolate cake for losing weight, and that surgical masks are better than no masks for reducing covid transmission.

The approach is the same.  

The response is also roughly the same.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It’s pretty much the same logic, and the same style of experiment.
> 
> For food, take a large group of people who want to lose weight.   Teach all of them to calorie count.   Advise half of them to try the chocolate cake diet, and advise the other half try the kale and vinaigrette diet.  Measure how they do.
> 
> For masks, take a large group of people who would rather not get covid.  Teach them all to socially distance.  Advise half the villages to wear surgical masks.   The other half of the villages get a lecture with no masks.  Measure how they do.
> 
> You will find out that kale is better than chocolate cake for losing weight, and that surgical masks are better than no masks for reducing covid transmission.
> 
> The approach is the same.
> 
> The response is also roughly the same.


You are saying the science "changed" for the chocolate cake diet because people didn't lose weight. I'm saying the same failure occurred with mask mandates, but most media experts don't say the science changed. Maybe masks (calorie counting) do work, but mask mandates are like chocolate cake because people don't wear them correctly, people take more risks because they are wearing a mask, etc. There is little evidence to the contrary - unlike vaccines.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Then the science changed.


They have been studying respiratory viruses for years.

You know what we are finding out though? They sure do get a lot of royalties from various companies. That couldn't possibly influence whether suddenly the people telling us for years that masks don't work, now say take a shot from a company that donates to them and oh by the way wear a mask.

After reading this I realize I made a poor career choice. I should have been a "scientist" pursuing the truth at the NIH.










						NIH scientists received estimated $350 million in royalties since 2009: Report
					

The National Institutes of Health received verified royalties amounting to $134 million from 2009-2014, with more yet to be revealed.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




We found agency leadership and top scientists at NIH receiving royalty payments. Well-known scientists receiving payments during the period included:

"Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the highest-paid federal bureaucrat, received 23 royalty payments. (Fauci's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $456,028 ).

Francis Collins, NIH director from 2009-2021, received 14 payments. (Collins' 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $203,500)

Clifford Lane, Fauci's deputy at NIAID, received 8 payments. (Lane's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $325,287)"









						Substack Investigation: Faucis Royalties And The $350 Million Royalty Payment Stream HIDDEN By NIH
					

Its the first time since 2005 that the NIH royalty payments receive oversight.




					www.openthebooks.com
				




Just highlighting this:



> To this day, Fauci continues to receive NIH-approved perks without a lot of accountability. For example, in February 2021, Fauci received a $1 million prize from the Dan David Foundation in Israel for "speaking truth to power" during the Trump administration.


While we at least know about that one -- because it was publicly awarded, instead of secretly insinuated into Fauci's bank accounts -- civil servants should not be allowed to accept "prizes" which amount to, in essence, a cash bounty (or bribe) awarded by a partisan organization for taking a political position for or against the president.

Fauci's been a government bureaucrat all his life. He joined in 1968, straight after his medical residency.

Why would he have royalties in any private company's patents?*

Remember, Anthony Fauci has previously lied under oath, or, let us say, made false statements while testifying to Congress. He claimed that all of his financial records were publicly available.


"Today, NIH is a revolving door of tens of billions of dollars in government grant-making coupled with hundreds of millions of dollars in private -- non-transparent -- royalty payments.

There needs to be a lot more sunshine on this potentially unholy alliance.

When a federal bureaucrat pops up on television giving us health instructions, who has paid them and for what research and technology? When a patient agrees to a clinical trial or experimental treatment, what financial interests are involved?

Rather than relentless redactions and prolonged court battles, it's past time for the government to disclose royalty payments as a matter of routine."


In fact, they're almost entirely redacted.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> They have been studying respiratory viruses for years.
> 
> You know what we are finding out though? They sure do get a lot of royalties from various companies. That couldn't possibly influence whether suddenly the people telling us for years that masks don't work, now say take a shot from a company that donates to them and oh by the way wear a mask.
> 
> After reading this I realize I made a poor career choice. I should have been a "scientist" pursuing the truth at the NIH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH scientists received estimated $350 million in royalties since 2009: Report
> 
> 
> The National Institutes of Health received verified royalties amounting to $134 million from 2009-2014, with more yet to be revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We found agency leadership and top scientists at NIH receiving royalty payments. Well-known scientists receiving payments during the period included:
> 
> "Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the highest-paid federal bureaucrat, received 23 royalty payments. (Fauci's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $456,028 ).
> 
> Francis Collins, NIH director from 2009-2021, received 14 payments. (Collins' 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $203,500)
> 
> Clifford Lane, Fauci's deputy at NIAID, received 8 payments. (Lane's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $325,287)"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Substack Investigation: Faucis Royalties And The $350 Million Royalty Payment Stream HIDDEN By NIH
> 
> 
> Its the first time since 2005 that the NIH royalty payments receive oversight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openthebooks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just highlighting this:
> 
> 
> While we at least know about that one -- because it was publicly awarded, instead of secretly insinuated into Fauci's bank accounts -- civil servants should not be allowed to accept "prizes" which amount to, in essence, a cash bounty (or bribe) awarded by a partisan organization for taking a political position for or against the president.
> 
> Fauci's been a government bureaucrat all his life. He joined in 1968, straight after his medical residency.
> 
> Why would he have royalties in any private company's patents?*
> 
> Remember, Anthony Fauci has previously lied under oath, or, let us say, made false statements while testifying to Congress. He claimed that all of his financial records were publicly available.
> 
> 
> "Today, NIH is a revolving door of tens of billions of dollars in government grant-making coupled with hundreds of millions of dollars in private -- non-transparent -- royalty payments.
> 
> There needs to be a lot more sunshine on this potentially unholy alliance.
> 
> When a federal bureaucrat pops up on television giving us health instructions, who has paid them and for what research and technology? When a patient agrees to a clinical trial or experimental treatment, what financial interests are involved?
> 
> Rather than relentless redactions and prolonged court battles, it's past time for the government to disclose royalty payments as a matter of routine."
> 
> 
> In fact, they're almost entirely redacted.


Wow!!


----------



## watfly

Also...lets not confuse science with some expert, like an epidemiologist, speculating or talking out their ass.  Ya know, like someone who says surfing is dangerous because sea air carries the virus hundred of yards.  Unfortunately, during the pandemic their were alleged experts that were trying to stay relevant and spewed nonsense on tv, social media etc.  If it were business you would have been fired, but since it science, you can't be held accountable because "science changes".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> They have been studying respiratory viruses for years.
> 
> You know what we are finding out though? They sure do get a lot of royalties from various companies. That couldn't possibly influence whether suddenly the people telling us for years that masks don't work, now say take a shot from a company that donates to them and oh by the way wear a mask.
> 
> After reading this I realize I made a poor career choice. I should have been a "scientist" pursuing the truth at the NIH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH scientists received estimated $350 million in royalties since 2009: Report
> 
> 
> The National Institutes of Health received verified royalties amounting to $134 million from 2009-2014, with more yet to be revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We found agency leadership and top scientists at NIH receiving royalty payments. Well-known scientists receiving payments during the period included:
> 
> "Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the highest-paid federal bureaucrat, received 23 royalty payments. (Fauci's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $456,028 ).
> 
> Francis Collins, NIH director from 2009-2021, received 14 payments. (Collins' 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $203,500)
> 
> Clifford Lane, Fauci's deputy at NIAID, received 8 payments. (Lane's 2021 taxpayer-funded salary: $325,287)"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Substack Investigation: Faucis Royalties And The $350 Million Royalty Payment Stream HIDDEN By NIH
> 
> 
> Its the first time since 2005 that the NIH royalty payments receive oversight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openthebooks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just highlighting this:
> 
> 
> While we at least know about that one -- because it was publicly awarded, instead of secretly insinuated into Fauci's bank accounts -- civil servants should not be allowed to accept "prizes" which amount to, in essence, a cash bounty (or bribe) awarded by a partisan organization for taking a political position for or against the president.
> 
> Fauci's been a government bureaucrat all his life. He joined in 1968, straight after his medical residency.
> 
> Why would he have royalties in any private company's patents?*
> 
> Remember, Anthony Fauci has previously lied under oath, or, let us say, made false statements while testifying to Congress. He claimed that all of his financial records were publicly available.
> 
> 
> "Today, NIH is a revolving door of tens of billions of dollars in government grant-making coupled with hundreds of millions of dollars in private -- non-transparent -- royalty payments.
> 
> There needs to be a lot more sunshine on this potentially unholy alliance.
> 
> When a federal bureaucrat pops up on television giving us health instructions, who has paid them and for what research and technology? When a patient agrees to a clinical trial or experimental treatment, what financial interests are involved?
> 
> Rather than relentless redactions and prolonged court battles, it's past time for the government to disclose royalty payments as a matter of routine."
> 
> 
> In fact, they're almost entirely redacted.


I was told on good authority that the only thing he did to impune his credibility was that he took his mask off once.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I was told on good authority that the only thing he did to impune his credibility was that he took his mask off once.


You seem to want to make it a personal question.

Suppose Fauci is caught tomorrow with three prostitutes and a briefcase of renminbi.   Would that, in any way, change whether mRNA vaccines are effective?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You seem to want to make it a personal question.
> 
> Suppose Fauci is caught tomorrow with three prostitutes and a briefcase of renminbi.   Would that, in any way, change whether mRNA vaccines are effective?


Am I missing something? Isn’t individual credibility “personal”?

The post by @Desert Hound indicated potential financial incentives associated with certain opinions. If true, those incentives should be considered when determining how much credibility should be given to his opinions - especially opinions that have changed.

Chinese prostitutes employed by BYD would make me question his opinion on masks. If they were employed by the Chinese government, I’d question his opinions on the origins of COVID.

BTW, Fauci’s (or Trump’s, or Biden’s, or Rogan’s) opinion of vaccines had zero effect on my choice to get the vaccine. It was the trial results of many thousands of individuals in a country where individuals are able to freely and openly communicate their experiences. Come to think of it, after he obviously lied about masks, there’s nothing he said that changed anything I believed. But that’s more of a timing issue. Even if he hadn’t lied, I’m not sure anything he said would have made a material difference in my behavior. In terms of his opinions, I’m firmly in the “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”category.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Am I missing something? Isn’t individual credibility “personal”?
> 
> The post by @Desert Hound indicated potential financial incentives associated with certain opinions. If true, those incentives should be considered when determining how much credibility should be given to his opinions - especially opinions that have changed.
> 
> Chinese prostitutes employed by BYD would make me question his opinion on masks. If they were employed by the Chinese government, I’d question his opinions on the origins of COVID.
> 
> BTW, Fauci’s (or Trump’s, or Biden’s, or Rogan’s) opinion of vaccines had zero effect on my choice to get the vaccine. It was the trial results of many thousands of individuals in a country where individuals are able to freely and openly communicate their experiences. Come to think of it, after he obviously lied about masks, there’s nothing he said that changed anything I believed. But that’s more of a timing issue. Even if he hadn’t lied, I’m not sure anything he said would have made a material difference in my behavior. In terms of his opinions, I’m firmly in the “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”category.


So sensitive, but of course this whole distrust of authority thing is new to you. Many of the rest of us have been that way since the 60’s back when “conservatives” were the ones blindly following “the establishment” . . . now it’s just one guy.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Am I missing something? Isn’t individual credibility “personal”?
> 
> The post by @Desert Hound indicated potential financial incentives associated with certain opinions. If true, those incentives should be considered when determining how much credibility should be given to his opinions - especially opinions that have changed.
> 
> Chinese prostitutes employed by BYD would make me question his opinion on masks. If they were employed by the Chinese government, I’d question his opinions on the origins of COVID.
> 
> BTW, Fauci’s (or Trump’s, or Biden’s, or Rogan’s) opinion of vaccines had zero effect on my choice to get the vaccine. It was the trial results of many thousands of individuals in a country where individuals are able to freely and openly communicate their experiences. Come to think of it, after he obviously lied about masks, there’s nothing he said that changed anything I believed. But that’s more of a timing issue. Even if he hadn’t lied, I’m not sure anything he said would have made a material difference in my behavior. In terms of his opinions, I’m firmly in the “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”category.


If you were asking how best to run the NIH and CDC, I’d understand a focus on financial ties to Pharma companies.  

Mostly, this is the thread against having to have rules to deal with covid.  For that, the attacks on Fauci, or any other individual, are pretty much irrelevant.  You have actual data.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> So sensitive, but of course this whole distrust of authority thing is new to you. Many of the rest of us have been that way since the 60’s back when “conservatives” were the ones blindly following “the establishment” . . . now it’s just one guy.


'If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain'


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Mostly, this is the thread against having to have rules to deal with covid.  For that, the attacks on Fauci, or any other individual, are pretty much irrelevant.  You have actual data.


Oh, that one is easy. The data indicates mask mandates don't work.


----------



## crush

I don't have all the answers to life's big Qs.  I will say that according to the scriptures, God was not alone at all and the Creator and the Team created life right here on earth.  I would not destroy the life that God wanted to create.  Happy TGIFF!!!  We can do this you guys.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, that one is easy. The data indicates mask mandates don't work.


People have real fear K & S and they think the mask will keep them safe.  Also, people like to hide behind the mask.  Depression is through the roof. People have lost a lot on their retirement funds.  The mask is a great way to hide how your really doing.  Most of the overweight and unhealthy people I see are still wearing mask.  I do see a few young looking woke guys with mask on and "so above us all" attitude, they wear mask with honor and pride.  I just stair at their eyes and communicate directly with them with eye to eye communication.  I call it eye gazing   The unhealthy mask folks I gaze with compassion.  The healthy woke guys, I stare with, "really bro, please........"


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You seem to want to make it a personal question.
> 
> Suppose Fauci is caught tomorrow with three prostitutes and a briefcase of renminbi.   Would that, in any way, change whether mRNA vaccines are effective?


It would demonstrate terrible judgement and would reinforce the idea that Covid eroded his credibility.  

effective vaccines...sure, once goal posts were realistically moved.  He knew the deal, he's close with the parties involved .  Yet he championed an idea that fell well short of the marketed mark.  To believe anything else is naive.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> So sensitive, but of course this whole distrust of authority thing is new to you. Many of the rest of us have been that way since the 60’s back when “conservatives” were the ones blindly following “the establishment” . . . now it’s just one guy.


gibberish


----------



## crush

*Some good news out of California:  The highest inflation ever has kicked in a automatic $.50 raise starting 2023.  It couldn't come any sooner 
*


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> If you were asking how best to run the NIH and CDC, I’d understand a focus on financial ties to Pharma companies.
> 
> Mostly, this is the thread against having to have rules to deal with covid.  For that, the attacks on Fauci, or any other individual, are pretty much irrelevant.  You have actual data.


Rules?  doesn't science change?  What rules?  So when cloth masks don't work, still wear them?  When it's obvious, based on science, that certain demographics don't need to be vaccinated, still mandate vaccines for them?  Rules, schmules...silly to even use the term rules.  Public health policy is best executed  based on trust.  That went out the window a while ago.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

what-happened said:


> gibberish


Stopped reading that BS long ago. I may disagree with @dad4 on occasion, but he contributes his own thoughts, and I actually believe he would have the same conversation with me if I met him on the sidelines. A few here are a cross between poor trolls and non-critically thinking party advocates (and/or consumed by Trump Derangement Syndrome). They are incapable of worthwhile contributions, and I have difficulty believing their schtick is real. If it is the "real" them, it's even sadder than I imagined.


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> Rules?  doesn't science change?  What rules?  So when cloth masks don't work, still wear them?  When it's obvious, based on science, that certain demographics don't need to be vaccinated, still mandate vaccines for them?  Rules, schmules...silly to even use the term rules.  Public health policy is best executed  based on trust.  That went out the window a while ago.


People are so compromised ((bought and bribed to STFU)) because of the jobs they work at.  The Big Lefty Cities are calling back Health Professionals that they fired for not taking the Jabs to see if they want their job back.  Can you believe that?  I was listening to a fired nurse on a conservative rag show share how appalled she was by her old boss calling her this week and acting as if nothing happened.  

Old Boss Lady ((OBL)):  Hey Nurse Rose, are you ready to come back to work? 

Nurse:  Come again,

OBL:  I can hire you back finally.  I am so sorry I had to fire you.  I was just listening to the boss.  How was your time off?

Nurse:  You must be kidding, right?

OBL:  No, we finally got the higher ups to allow you and the other non vaxxers back to work.  The fact is, we have many vax workers who are actually sick with Covid and can't work.  So and so passed a way and word on the street is he was 4 time jabbed but their calling it a "natural" death.  We really need you back here asap!!

Nurse:  Fat chance.  My attorney is suing you guys on my behalf for wrongful termination among other things.  I will never work for you ever again. In fact, me and some other nurses are staring a Independent Mobile Nurse Business!!


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stopped reading that BS long ago. *I may disagree with @dad4 on occasion*, but he contributes his own thoughts, and I actually believe he would have the same conversation with me if I met him on the sidelines. A few here are a cross between poor trolls and non-critically thinking party advocates (and/or consumed by Trump Derangement Syndrome). They are incapable of worthwhile contributions, and I have difficulty believing their schtick is real. If it is the "real" them, it's even sadder than I imagined.


What???  You disagree with me on everything and agree with Dad on most occasions?  Brah, come on man


----------



## crush

*"When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was no vaccine available. In the last 15 months, the economy has created 8.3M jobs and the unemployment rate stands at 3.6% — the fastest decline in unemployment to start a President's term ever recorded," the White House’s verified Twitter account wrote.  *


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Friday Sharing News:  **Vegas strip resort pays employees $5000 bonus each for work during pandemic*


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Mostly, this is the thread against having to have rules to deal with covid.


Because the rules did nothing to stop the virus. 

The rules however have led to...

The highest inflation in 40 yrs. We massively overspent. And before someone says inflation is everywhere...other major economies are not experiencing anything close to our inflation because they didnt spend foolishly like we did. 

The closure of biz done on an arbitrary way. Costco ok. The family store? not so much. Etc etc. Killing off biz, hurting savings

The closure of schools harmed kids...

And the list goes on and on. 

The rules were arbitrary, not effective, etc. And as time goes on we are seeing more and more harm that was caused by the said rules.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, that one is easy. The data indicates mask mandates don't work.


Like masks, mandates don’t work when some ignore them. We are as strong as the weakest link.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like masks, mandates don’t work when some ignore them. We are as strong as the weakest link.


Mandates don't work when the public realizes they are pointless and make no difference.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Mandates don't work when the public realizes they are pointless and make no difference.


and are applied and enforced in an arbitrary manner.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like masks, mandates don’t work when some ignore them. We are as strong as the weakest link.


how do we mandate a mask to work?  If the mask doesn't work, it doesn't work. Can't force the mask to work.  I suppose we could have established N95 mobile training and compliance teams?  We are only as strong as the science suggests..


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Because the rules did nothing to stop the virus.
> 
> The rules however have led to...
> 
> The highest inflation in 40 yrs. We massively overspent. And before someone says inflation is everywhere...other major economies are not experiencing anything close to our inflation because they didnt spend foolishly like we did.
> 
> The closure of biz done on an arbitrary way. Costco ok. The family store? not so much. Etc etc. Killing off biz, hurting savings
> 
> The closure of schools harmed kids...
> 
> And the list goes on and on.
> 
> The rules were arbitrary, not effective, etc. And as time goes on we are seeing more and more harm that was caused by the said rules.


Wait.  How did masks and vaccine passports cause inflation?

I understand how you can blame oil price shocks, deficit spending, or supply chain disruptions.  There is a good argument for each of those.

But you want to blame the covid containment rules.   Why should I believe that covid rules, of all things, were the primarily factor in causing inflation?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> how do we mandate a mask to work?  If the mask doesn't work, it doesn't work. Can't force the mask to work.  I suppose we could have established N95 mobile training and compliance teams?  We are only as strong as the science suggests..


Weak link, check. It is helpful when all ya all raise your hand like that.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> Weak link, check. It is helpful when all ya all raise your hand like that.


Being witty is defintely not your strength. 

 You never answered the question:  how do you mandate a mask to work?  How long did you wear a cloth mask thinking it was providing life saving protection?  How long were you fooled or did you just want to believe?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Wait.  How did masks and vaccine passports cause inflation?
> 
> I understand how you can blame oil price shocks, deficit spending, or supply chain disruptions.  There is a good argument for each of those.
> 
> But you want to blame the covid containment rules.   Why should I believe that covid rules, of all things, were the primarily factor in causing inflation?


One might consider tariffs and tax cuts along with a recent wave of price gouging.








						Inflation Was the Purpose of Trump’s Tax Cuts for the Wealthy
					

Republicans are committed to the oppression of the poor




					aninjusticemag.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

what-happened said:


> Being witty is defintely not your strength.
> 
> You never answered the question:  how do you mandate a mask to work?  How long did you wear a cloth mask thinking it was providing life saving protection?  How long were you fooled or did you just want to believe?


It’s too easy, you do it to yourself. I’ll just let you go on.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> One might consider tariffs and tax cuts along with a recent wave of price gouging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inflation Was the Purpose of Trump’s Tax Cuts for the Wealthy
> 
> 
> Republicans are committed to the oppression of the poor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aninjusticemag.com


really?  Walter Rhein appears to be quite the unbiased  expert and seasoned journalist, knowing all things about economics.  Great pick.


----------



## what-happened

Hüsker Dü said:


> It’s too easy, you do it to yourself. I’ll just let you go on.


I'm glad you took that as a compliment.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Wait.  How did masks and vaccine passports cause inflation?
> 
> I understand how you can blame oil price shocks, deficit spending, or supply chain disruptions.  There is a good argument for each of those.
> 
> But you want to blame the covid containment rules.   Why should I believe that covid rules, of all things, were the primarily factor in causing inflation?


The rules put in place limited biz and put people out of work. As such gov started printing money. 

Shall I go on?


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The rules put in place limited biz and put people out of work. As such gov started printing money.
> 
> Shall I go on?


Apparently overturning Roe v. Wade is going to cause rampant inflation as well.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Because the rules did nothing to stop the virus.
> 
> The rules however have led to...
> 
> The highest inflation in 40 yrs. We massively overspent. And before someone says inflation is everywhere...other major economies are not experiencing anything close to our inflation because they didnt spend foolishly like we did.
> 
> The closure of biz done on an arbitrary way. Costco ok. The family store? not so much. Etc etc. Killing off biz, hurting savings
> 
> The closure of schools harmed kids...
> 
> And the list goes on and on.
> 
> The rules were arbitrary, not effective, etc. And as time goes on we are seeing more and more harm that was caused by the said rules.


All this was a plan to finish off critical thinkers and people with hi IQs, but the ghost in the machine fooled the bad guys and the tables have been turned on the cheats and now good fortune and abundance will go to those who follow the truth and honesty above money or job or to keep a position in life.  This has everything to do with freedom of choice and choosing wisely.  If you support good, you will win in this next life and the life to come.  All cheaters, spiers, liars and preachers of false information will not have a seat at the Kings table for the big banquet.  No more brown nosing and ass kissing and for sure no more pay to play in this next game of life.  Remember who ran first to be first in the jab line and who makes their children get the jab in order to participate?  I know some money guys who never lose on their bets and they are sweating bullets like never before and feeling stressed out like never before.  I feel for a very dear friend that manages peoples money.  He told me he has some pissed off customers and super scared clients who want all their money back.


----------



## Hüsker Dü




----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13549


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> One might consider tariffs and tax cuts along with a recent wave of price gouging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inflation Was the Purpose of Trump’s Tax Cuts for the Wealthy
> 
> 
> Republicans are committed to the oppression of the poor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aninjusticemag.com


That is an article/opinion piece written by a highly partisan D. 

I am dumber for reading that.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> So sensitive, but of course this whole distrust of authority thing is new to you. Many of the rest of us have been that way since the 60’s back when “conservatives” were the ones blindly following “the establishment” . . . now it’s just one guy.


Distrust of authority vis-a-vis vaccination programs easily predates the 60s. There are plenty of media articles laying out the notable parallels between the themes underlying resistance to smallpox vaccination programs in Victorian Europe  and what we've seen playing out over the past several years: violation of personal freedom for the sake of the collective, distrust of established sources of information and perceived elites, vaccine ineffectiveness, vaccine toxicity, and then further into conspiracy theorization. Sound familiar? Indeed, if you look at the articles below you'll see that the memes of that period were far superior than the memes of today. And some of the resistance was well founded.  Jenner-era cowpox vaxx definitely had risk.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-50713991
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/11/14/smallpox-anti-vaccine-england-jenner/

There are scholars who get right down in the weeds about the similarities and differences between then and now with respect to vaccine resistance movements.  My takeaway is that the politics is pretty much the same, but the class/sociology stuff has differences.  And, of course, history keeps rolling along, the big storm never comes, and smallpox is gone.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11624425/; this one is kind of from what I take to be the horse shoe left
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21770225/; and this one is kind of a straight up logical positivist analysis.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Distrust of authority vis-a-vis vaccination programs easily predates the 60s. There are plenty of media articles laying out the notable parallels between the themes underlying resistance to smallpox vaccination programs in Victorian Europe  and what we've seen playing out over the past several years: violation of personal freedom for the sake of the collective, distrust of established sources of information and perceived elites, vaccine ineffectiveness, vaccine toxicity, and then further into conspiracy theorization. Sound familiar? Indeed, if you look at the articles below you'll see that the memes of that period were far superior than the memes of today. And some of the resistance was well founded.  Jenner-era cowpox vaxx definitely had risk.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-50713991
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/11/14/smallpox-anti-vaccine-england-jenner/
> 
> There are scholars who get right down in the weeds about the similarities and differences between then and now with respect to vaccine resistance movements.  My takeaway is that the politics is pretty much the same, but the class/sociology stuff has differences.  And, of course, history keeps rolling along, the big storm never comes, and smallpox is gone.
> 
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11624425/; this one is kind of from what I take to be the horse shoe left
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21770225/; and this one is kind of a straight up logical positivist analysis.


“Half cow babies” and the “undeserving class” wow! & Lol! I was of course referring to the current generational shift of “conservatives” from establishment backing to playing victims of. But I dig your bit.


----------



## whatithink

Desert Hound said:


> The highest inflation in 40 yrs. We massively overspent. And before someone says inflation is everywhere...other major economies are not experiencing anything close to our inflation because they didnt spend foolishly like we did.


Lots of interesting stuff on inflation (Global) in this link (below) from the Financial Times. The US is the highest of the major western economies, but others are not that far behind.



The major driver is energy costs.




Global inflation tracker: see how your country compares on rising prices | Financial Times (ft.com)


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Half cow babies” and the “undeserving class” wow! & Lol! I was of course referring to the current generational shift of “conservatives” from establishment backing to playing victims of. But I dig your bit.


Husker Du, you need serious help....lol........we all do so don;t feel bad, but you need way more.  It's obvious that some people are Conservative and some people are Liberal.  Some people are Independent and stuck in the middle, sitting on the fence to see WHO wins.  Some people believe in the Creator and some people hate the Creator or think they don't believe in God, as if that makes any sense.  People like you are having a very, very difficult time because your belief system is falling a part.  Most people around the world hate pay to play and cheating.  Anyone WHO votes to make it a law to abort a fetus right before the birth of the fetus is cruel and sick, all in one and is on the losing end of this debate about the life of a baby who is renting space in a womb.  6 years of losing, cheating, spying and lying is taking it's toll on your soul and the soul of my best pal, who is just like you.  He now is going low blow and personal on me because he has lost every debate with me.  I would share some cool abundance that has come my way but I won't, because you would be jealous.....lol!!  The tables have turned.  I bet it's getting harder to fall asleep for you.  Do you see the face of the King as you lay in your bed all alone?  Love the King or at the very least, be nice to the King.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Lots of interesting stuff on inflation (Global) in this link (below) from the Financial Times. The US is the highest of the major western economies, but others are not that far behind.
> 
> View attachment 13558
> 
> The major driver is energy costs.
> 
> View attachment 13555
> 
> 
> Global inflation tracker: see how your country compares on rising prices | Financial Times (ft.com)


How many of those other countries have the ability to be energy independent?  I wouldn't worry about it though, this inflation is just transitory.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How many of those other countries have the ability to be energy independent?  I wouldn't worry about it though, this inflation is just transitory.


Why would energy independence mean no energy inflation?  The markets are all linked.   People aren’t going to sell West Texas for $40 when Brent is going for $110.

Price still goes up.  Independence would affect the trade deficit, but not inflation.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> How many of those other countries have the ability to be energy independent?  I wouldn't worry about it though, this inflation is just transitory.


Every country has that ability, but it would require them to go nuclear in the short term (which is measured in years).

If you meant fossil fuels, then only the US really, but, for example, we produce 12M barrels of oil a day and consume 18M, increasing production by 50% and increasing refining capacity by the same amount would take years (also).


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> How many of those other countries have the ability to be energy independent?  I wouldn't worry about it though, this inflation is just transitory.


I got solar bro on my trailer.  100% independent just in case.  I'm taking the fearsome foursome up to Mt Shasta for some family business and some family R & R. Also, Lunar Eclipse on 5/15/2022 and a time to reflect on the pass, kiss it goodbye and focus on today, with hopes and dreams for tomorrow.  The last 6 years have been one challenge after another.  The losses at times felt like a punch to the balls where it felt like I couldn't breathe. Then, once you catch your breath, some old pal stabs you in the back.  As you turn around to see who it was, someone kicks you in the balls again and you fall to the ground and lay in the fetal position.  It was a tough war and I lost some battles along the way but I never quit.  I have the Eye of the Tiger still and will finish this race on top.  Happy Saturday to you brother


----------



## crush

Young people praying for America and the world.  Make love not war.  No more war.  My old dear lib pal used to hate war and was 100% against it back in 2001.  Now he wants it so bad.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Why would energy independence mean no energy inflation?  The markets are all linked.   People aren’t going to sell West Texas for $40 when Brent is going for $110.
> 
> Price still goes up.  Independence would affect the trade deficit, but not inflation.





whatithink said:


> Every country has that ability, but it would require them to go nuclear in the short term (which is measured in years).
> 
> If you meant fossil fuels, then only the US really, but, for example, we produce 12M barrels of oil a day and consume 18M, increasing production by 50% and increasing refining capacity by the same amount would take years (also).


So there is nothing we can do about inflation, because that's what your implying?  I don't buy the Biden just has bad luck BS narrative.  His policies have been inflationary and not anti-inflationary. Name something he has done that has been anti-inflationary?  Releasing strategic oil reserves? That's about it and only reduced prices slightly for a couple weeks and not the $.35 he promised.  Oh my bad, he also told people to go buy electric cars.

To quote Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are"?  He and his administration are so far in over their heads and desperate they've resorted to blatant lying instead of clever little white lies.  There was no vaccine available when Biden became president WTF?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> So there is nothing we can do about inflation, because that's what your implying?  I don't buy the Biden just has bad luck BS narrative.  His policies have been inflationary and not anti-inflationary. Name something he has done that has been anti-inflationary?  Releasing strategic oil reserves? That's about it and only reduced prices slightly for a couple weeks and not the $.35 he promised.  Oh my bad, he also told people to go buy electric cars.
> 
> To quote Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are"?  He and his administration are so far in over their heads and desperate they've resorted to blatant lying instead of clever little white lies.  There was no vaccine available when Biden became president WTF?


I warned you.  Its the Liar Liars Club.  They just lie and then make fun like Husker Du does.  I try to have some satire but not mixed with lies.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So there is nothing we can do about inflation, because that's what your implying?  I don't buy the Biden just has bad luck BS narrative.  His policies have been inflationary and not anti-inflationary. Name something he has done that has been anti-inflationary?  Releasing strategic oil reserves? That's about it and only reduced prices slightly for a couple weeks and not the $.35 he promised.  Oh my bad, he also told people to go buy electric cars.
> 
> To quote Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are"?  He and his administration are so far in over their heads and desperate they've resorted to blatant lying instead of clever little white lies.  There was no vaccine available when Biden became president WTF?


Nothing we can do?  Hardly.

Our recent fiscal policy set us up for inflation.  Some of that is unfunded covid relief spending, and some is underfunded tax cuts.  

The oil shock kicked us over the cliff, but we walked ourselves right up to the edge.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nothing we can do?  Hardly.
> 
> Our recent fiscal policy set us up for inflation.  Some of that is unfunded covid relief spending, and some is underfunded tax cuts.
> 
> The oil shock kicked us over the cliff, but we walked ourselves right up to the edge.


Exactly.  And a lot of the covid relief spending was because we shut down business.  PPE was mostly a disaster which is what happens when the government hands out free money.  The fraud was insane.  And yes Trump deserves the blame for the PPE, he should have known better.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> So there is nothing we can do about inflation, because that's what your implying?  I don't buy the Biden just has bad luck BS narrative.  His policies have been inflationary and not anti-inflationary. Name something he has done that has been anti-inflationary?  Releasing strategic oil reserves? That's about it and only reduced prices slightly for a couple weeks and not the $.35 he promised.  Oh my bad, he also told people to go buy electric cars.
> 
> To quote Bill Parcells "you are what your record says you are"?  He and his administration are so far in over their heads and desperate they've resorted to blatant lying instead of clever little white lies.  There was no vaccine available when Biden became president WTF?


My comment had nothing to do with the monetary policy of the Biden admin. They can certainly do more than they are doing, which frankly seems very little if anything of substance. For example, they could guarantee that they would buy (domestic) oil at a certain price point to incentive more domestic drilling and ensuring that those domestic oil companies are not going to be caught out by a drop in oil (beyond their break even). They could also repeal the Trump import tariffs to reduce prices, although I'm not sure that will have a huge effect given the supply chain issues. The Fex needs to be more aggressive in rate increases and reducing the money supply - that would help.

The repeated broad stimulus packages (should have been more targeted) are definitely a contributor to this and are probably the reason the US is leading the way (sic) but the UK & Germany are not far behind and they did not have the same stimuli. So its a global issue with the war in Ukraine being the latest trigger for both the rises in oil and more importantly (for people) food prices given the Ukraine is the 5th largest food producer globally (I believe).

Its not going away anytime soon and the best we can hope for in the short term (which includes active engagement of governments) is a stabilization and gradual reduction. That's my 0.02 worth.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Exactly.  And a lot of the covid relief spending was because we shut down business.  PPE was mostly a disaster which is what happens when the government hands out free money.  The fraud was insane.  And yes Trump deserves the blame for the PPE, he should have known better.


Supporting businesses who were forced to shut down or employees out of work because you (gov) shut down their employers was the right thing to do. I agree that it was a free for all and fraud naturally followed. 

Conversely for many other businesses covid was a boom period. They don't balance out, but it wasn't all negative.


----------



## watfly

whatithink said:


> Supporting businesses who were forced to shut down or employees out of work because you (gov) shut down their employers was the right thing to do. I agree that it was a free for all and fraud naturally followed.
> 
> Conversely for many other businesses covid was a boom period. They don't balance out, but it wasn't all negative.


I was at a seminar recently and one of the economists speaking claimed that the government gave out 3x the amount of money than was lost.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

You gotta love that guy!








						Fauci says he would not serve under Trump again
					

White House chief medical adviser Anthony Fauci on Sunday said if former President Trump wins the presidency again in 2024, Fauci will not return to serve Trump in the White House. Fauci, the chief…




					thehill.com


----------



## Brav520

Is Fauci campaigning for Trump?


----------



## met61

...imagine the government mandating that healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...

...then imagine listening to this...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525949542943756289


----------



## Desert Hound

met61 said:


> ...imagine the government mandating that healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...
> 
> ...then imagine listening to this...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525949542943756289


Mandating that people take a drug without having long term studies is unethical at the very least.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You gotta love that guy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci says he would not serve under Trump again
> 
> 
> White House chief medical adviser Anthony Fauci on Sunday said if former President Trump wins the presidency again in 2024, Fauci will not return to serve Trump in the White House. Fauci, the chief…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com


Out of curiosity which Fauci do you love?

Science Fauci:  Masks are unnecessary, kids are safer in school, the pandemic is over, the crowded Correspondents Dinner is unsafe

Celebrity Fauci:  Masks are critical, supports school closures, the pandemic is on going, the crowded Correspondents Dinner pre-parties are safe

Oh crap, my bad again, I forgot science changes...apparently even in the span of one day.

Fauci is a perfect example of why beaker sniffers should never be out of the lab.  All that book smarts crowds out common sense.  He never should have been the spokeshole for Covid.  He doesn't have the savvy and is too narrow-minded to understand cause and effect of his public comments.  He was a sucker for leading questions.  I was actually a fan of his to start, but he went off the rails in part generated by his new found celebrity.   He was qualified as an adviser but not as the figure head.









						Poll: Majority say time Fauci should be removed
					

(The Center Square) – The majority of surveyed Americans think Anthony Fauci should be removed from his role in helping lead the federal government’s COVID-19 response, a new poll released




					www.thecentersquare.com
				






Brav520 said:


> Is Fauci campaigning for Trump?


Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Out of curiosity which Fauci do you love?
> 
> Science Fauci:  Masks are unnecessary, kids are safer in school, the pandemic is over, the crowded Correspondents Dinner is unsafe
> 
> Celebrity Fauci:  Masks are critical, supports school closures, the pandemic is on going, the crowded Correspondents Dinner pre-parties are safe
> 
> Oh crap, my bad again, I forgot science changes...apparently even in the span of one day.
> 
> Fauci is a perfect example of why beaker sniffers should never be out of the lab.  All that book smarts crowds out common sense.  He never should have been the spokeshole for Covid.  He doesn't have the savvy and is too narrow-minded to understand cause and effect of his public comments.  He was a sucker for leading questions.  I was actually a fan of his to start, but he went off the rails in part generated by his new found celebrity.   He was qualified as an adviser but not as the figure head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Majority say time Fauci should be removed
> 
> 
> (The Center Square) – The majority of surveyed Americans think Anthony Fauci should be removed from his role in helping lead the federal government’s COVID-19 response, a new poll released
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecentersquare.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me.


So, it’s Science Fauci when he agrees with watfly, but Celebrity Fauci when he diasgrees with you?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> So, it’s Science Fauci when he agrees with watfly, but Celebrity Fauci when he diasgrees with you?


That was sarcasm chief.   It's was all opinion and speculation, despite the fact that he holds himself out to be Science.  Do you not believe that Fauci has had a lot of mixed messaging and had trouble with leading questions?  I know you have a thing for the "science people", but c'mon let's look at this substantively and stop appealing to authority which is a logical fallacy.


----------



## watfly

Barely HALF of 'Covid' patients in NYC hospitals admitted due to virus
					

State data shows of the 670 patients marked as being infected with the virus on Friday, just over two in five were admitted because of the disease. The rest came in for another condition.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Barely HALF of 'Covid' patients in NYC hospitals admitted due to virus
> 
> 
> State data shows of the 670 patients marked as being infected with the virus on Friday, just over two in five were admitted because of the disease. The rest came in for another condition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


So it’s worse than anyone thought.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That was sarcasm chief.   It's was all opinion and speculation, despite the fact that he holds himself out to be Science.  Do you not believe that Fauci has had a lot of mixed messaging and had trouble with leading questions?  I know you have a thing for the "science people", but c'mon let's look at this substantively and stop appealing to authority which is a logical fallacy.


No question that Fauci is more spokesman than scientist.  That is the job.  

I was just amused that you put masking where you did.

I see plenty of scientists who believe outdoor limits were misplaced.  I don’t see many scientists who think it was an error to mask up.  That complaint comes mainly from lay people who don’t like being told to wear a mask.


----------



## crush

*Our Country and State are a big mess and we can all start blaming the so-called men in this country.  I saw this meme and thought of four avatars.  I picked Espola and Sunshine as the men of the 2020s.  You guys earned this award big time...lol!!!  I picked Dessert Hound and What-Happened as the two guys from the 70s.  You guys are fair minded and independent and that's what I love about you both.  I truly believe something happen to the men in this country.  The teaching to be a man is all messed up and we need to educate the men big time and then help educate the young men so they know how to speak and treat women properly.  I am calling on all the men to man up and become a real man, so we can save this country.  Soccer can be saved later.  America needs fixing and it's about time that ALL the men ((16 and older)) get off the couch, stop playing video games, stop looking at pornhub, stop watching the news on Tel A Vision, get in shape and start making things better for the Elderly, the kiddos and the women. The man fence sitter also needs to jump down now!!!!  I see one cat on here that is slowly getting down off that fence and like that a lot   It warms my heart to see men be men!!!!!!!!  After we fix this shit, we can all rest and relax and enjoy the real Pentecost.  Mark my words, we are heading into rough waters but those who choose wisely will have the time of their life later  *


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> No question that Fauci is more spokesman than scientist.  That is the job.
> 
> I was just amused that you put masking where you did.
> 
> I see plenty of scientists who believe outdoor limits were misplaced.  I don’t see many scientists who think it was an error to mask up.  That complaint comes mainly from lay people who don’t like being told to wear a mask.


Again you miss the point entirely.  It's all about credibility and his mixed messaging gives him zero credibility, not to mention he is unqualified on so many levels to be a spokesperson.  I put them into groups to show the fallacy of the thinking that you can bifurcate his advice into two buckets.  Instead of understanding that, you double down and complain are amused about me putting masks in the "negative" category.  Think big picture.


----------



## Desert Hound

The idiocy of the covid policies is going to haunt us for years. 

Ex-Federal Reserve chair says US economy is heading toward period of stagflation for first time since 1970s: CEO of Goldman Sachs says risk of America falling into a recession 'is very, very high'
Ben Bernake warns that high unemployment and high prices could stay for years

Stagflation last happened in the US in the 70s, when OPEC pushed oil prices up

It led to years of high inflation and low economic growth that may happen again

Average prices are up by 8.3% from last year; Gas is averaging $4.48 a gallon

The CEO of Goldman Sachs and other banks warn that a recession is looming as the Federal Reserve struggles to rein in inflation without triggering a slowdown

By ADAM MANNO FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 12:26 EDT, 16 May 2022


----------



## Grace T.

Desert Hound said:


> The idiocy of the covid policies is going to haunt us for years.
> 
> Ex-Federal Reserve chair says US economy is heading toward period of stagflation for first time since 1970s: CEO of Goldman Sachs says risk of America falling into a recession 'is very, very high'
> Ben Bernake warns that high unemployment and high prices could stay for years
> 
> Stagflation last happened in the US in the 70s, when OPEC pushed oil prices up
> 
> It led to years of high inflation and low economic growth that may happen again
> 
> Average prices are up by 8.3% from last year; Gas is averaging $4.48 a gallon
> 
> The CEO of Goldman Sachs and other banks warn that a recession is looming as the Federal Reserve struggles to rein in inflation without triggering a slowdown
> 
> By ADAM MANNO FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
> 
> PUBLISHED: 12:26 EDT, 16 May 2022


It's nothing compared to what's going to happen in the 3rd world (thanks also to the generous sprinklings of the Ukraine war).  Sri Lanka and Peru are the first dominos that are falling.  It's going to take a good 5, more likely 10 years (from pandemic start) to work through all the various issues.

As to our own economy, recall I called stagflation over a year ago.  There's no soft landing here.  The chance for a soft landing evaporated with BBB.  It's going to be ugly the only question is how much and if it's worse or better or the same as 2008.  There are still quite a few variables in play but the China lockdowns and Ukraine war certainly is tipping it in the negative direction.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> It's nothing compared to what's going to happen in the 3rd world (thanks also to the generous sprinklings of the Ukraine war).  Sri Lanka and Peru are the first dominos that are falling.  It's going to take a good 5, more likely 10 years (from pandemic start) to work through all the various issues.
> 
> As to our own economy, recall I called stagflation over a year ago.  There's no soft landing here.  The chance for a soft landing evaporated with BBB.  It's going to be ugly the only question is how much and if it's worse or better or the same as 2008.  There are still quite a few variables in play but the China lockdowns and Ukraine war certainly is tipping it in the negative direction.


...and of course, there will be no accountability.


----------



## crush

It's not over.  Oh boy, I can't wait for what the summer has for all of us.  Were in this together you guys.  Time to be a man or a mouse.


----------



## dad4

Florida just banned protests outside homes for the purpose of harrassing or disturbing the residents.

I have to give credit to DeSantis on this one.  It’s a simple step towards civility.  Protesting outside the government building is fine.  Following the official home is not.  It’s embarrassing that we have to spell it out, but that’s where we are.


----------



## Desert Hound

"To sum up, public schools stopped being responsive to the needs of parents, refused to provide effective education (while still getting all its public funding to do so), in an effort to evade a risk that didn’t actually exist. And they wonder why 1.2 million or more students have disenrolled from public-school systems?"

"In New York City, the nation’s largest school district has lost some 50,000 students over the past two years. In Michigan, enrollment remains more than 50,000 below prepandemic levels from big cities to the rural Upper Peninsula.

In the suburbs of Orange County, Calif., where families have moved for generations to be part of the public school system, enrollment slid for the second consecutive year; statewide, more than a quarter-million public school students have dropped from California’s rolls since 2019.

And since school funding is tied to enrollment, cities that have lost many students — including Denver, Albuquerque and Oakland — are now considering combining classrooms, laying off teachers or shutting down entire schools.

All together, America’s public schools have lost at least 1.2 million students since 2020, according to a recently published national survey. State enrollment figures show no sign of a rebound to the previous national levels any time soon."









						NYT: Say, where have all the public-school students gone?
					

The Great Disenrollment.




					hotair.com


----------



## met61

...imagine the government mandating that healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...

...then imagine reading this...

NOTE: for those inclined to ignore the message and attack the messenger...WSJ, NYT, and USNEWS are referenced in the thread.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1526686757315432448


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

Desert Hound said:


> "To sum up, public schools stopped being responsive to the needs of parents, refused to provide effective education (while still getting all its public funding to do so), in an effort to evade a risk that didn’t actually exist. And they wonder why 1.2 million or more students have disenrolled from public-school systems?"
> 
> "In New York City, the nation’s largest school district has lost some 50,000 students over the past two years. In Michigan, enrollment remains more than 50,000 below prepandemic levels from big cities to the rural Upper Peninsula.
> 
> In the suburbs of Orange County, Calif., where families have moved for generations to be part of the public school system, enrollment slid for the second consecutive year; statewide, more than a quarter-million public school students have dropped from California’s rolls since 2019.
> 
> And since school funding is tied to enrollment, cities that have lost many students — including Denver, Albuquerque and Oakland — are now considering combining classrooms, laying off teachers or shutting down entire schools.
> 
> All together, America’s public schools have lost at least 1.2 million students since 2020, according to a recently published national survey. State enrollment figures show no sign of a rebound to the previous national levels any time soon."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYT: Say, where have all the public-school students gone?
> 
> 
> The Great Disenrollment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hotair.com


Government schools, teachers unions, school boards, etc. have been taken over by the far left. They no longer see it as a priority to teach core subjects (math, English, science). They would rather talk about race, gender and sex in a way that goes beyond their mandate as a government school. Every subject my child has is taught from a racial or sexual perspective. It is woven through everything she is assigned. Government schools can’t talk or teach about traditional religions but think they can pass along left ideologies that have no place in the classroom.


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> They would rather talk about race, gender and sex in a way that goes beyond their mandate as a government school.


It is why I moved my kids out of public schools years ago.


----------



## GoldenGate

met61 said:


> ...imagine the government mandating that healthy adults get the vaccine or lose their jobs...
> 
> ...then imagine reading this...
> 
> NOTE: for those inclined to ignore the message and attack the messenger...WSJ, NYT, and USNEWS are referenced in the thread.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1526686757315432448


Gosh, they also happen to have among the lowest death rates since the vaccines became available. Imagine that.


----------



## GoldenGate

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> Government schools, teachers unions, school boards, etc. have been taken over by the far left. They no longer see it as a priority to teach core subjects (math, English, science). They would rather talk about race, gender and sex in a way that goes beyond their mandate as a government school. Every subject my child has is taught from a racial or sexual perspective. It is woven through everything she is assigned. Government schools can’t talk or teach about traditional religions but think they can pass along left ideologies that have no place in the classroom.


That is one way to rationalize your daughter's performance in school.  Another explanation is that she didn't fall far from the tree.


----------



## met61

GoldenGate said:


> Gosh, they also happen to have among the lowest death rates since the vaccines became available. Imagine that.


...lowest death rates by far are the young and healthy...but sure, okay.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Florida just banned protests outside homes for the purpose of harrassing or disturbing the residents.
> 
> I have to give credit to DeSantis on this one.  It’s a simple step towards civility.  Protesting outside the government building is fine.  Following the official home is not.  It’s embarrassing that we have to spell it out, but that’s where we are.


He is only thinking of himself.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

GoldenGate said:


> That is one way to rationalize your daughter's performance in school.  Another explanation is that she didn't fall far from the tree.


By “leftist ideology” the poster is referring to that which the overwhelming majority see as our reality and important.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Florida just banned protests outside homes for the purpose of harrassing or disturbing the residents.
> 
> I have to give credit to DeSantis on this one.  It’s a simple step towards civility.  Protesting outside the government building is fine.  Following the official home is not.  It’s embarrassing that we have to spell it out, but that’s where we are.


While I agree it is probably the right thing to do, it bothers me when we have to implement new laws because existing laws aren't being enforced.


----------



## watfly

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> Government schools, teachers unions, school boards, etc. have been taken over by the far left. They no longer see it as a priority to teach core subjects (math, English, science). They would rather talk about race, gender and sex in a way that goes beyond their mandate as a government school. Every subject my child has is taught from a racial or sexual perspective. It is woven through everything she is assigned. Government schools can’t talk or teach about traditional religions but think they can pass along left ideologies that have no place in the classroom.


Shit like this, which they attempted at my daughter's high school this year.  Fortunately, parents fought back.  (Posted the whole article since its a subscription):

*Gifted education has been shrinking in San Diego and California*
*California provides no funding for gifted programs, while some district leaders question how equitable they are*
BY KRISTEN TAKETA
MAY 15, 2022 5 AM PT
FOR SUBSCRIBERS
Crystal Scotten’s sixth-grade daughter used to love school. Now she seems to hate it, Scotten said.
This year her school, Dana Middle in Point Loma, replaced its gifted program called GATE Seminar — which Scotten’s daughter was a part of — with an honors program to make it more accessible to students who don’t meet the district’s gifted identification requirements.
The change brought more students into the advanced program, but according to Scotten and some other Dana parents whose children were in the gifted program, the rigor they used to have is no longer there. Scotten said her daughter has been given less reading and writing to do, and the reading texts are not challenging to her.
This story is for subscribers
We offer subscribers exclusive access to our best journalism.
Thank you for your support.
“I’ve seen a difference. She’ll come home and say, ‘I’m bored,’ ‘I don’t want to go today, it’s boring,’” said Scotten, who has toured multiple local private schools and is looking at home-schooling options.

ADVERTISING

Even though the principal at Dana Middle has said the pacing of the honors program has not slowed compared to its predecessor, some parents like Scotten remain unconvinced. And they worry about gifted education programs going away entirely.
San Diego Unified School District’s Gifted and Talented Education — or GATE — program, long imagined by parents and district leaders to be a model for school districts statewide, is shrinking.
The district has been identifying fewer students for the gifted program each year since 2015. About 18 percent of age-eligible students are identified for the program this year, compared to 31 percent in 2012.

Some schools have been dropping gifted education classes out of choice, like Dana Middle, but more often it’s because schools don’t have enough gifted-identified students. It didn’t help that San Diego Unified suspended gifted identification testing for the past two years due to COVID.
District leaders have been vocal about their desire to decrease the number of gifted-identified students. In 2015, the school board overhauled its gifted identification testing to decrease what officials suggested was an inflated number of students qualifying as gifted.
School board members also question the role of the gifted program and worry that it is segregating students. The district identifies far fewer students as gifted in areas with more low-income, Black and Latino students than in areas with more higher-income, White and Asian students.

“The kind of supports that have been in place for GATE and Seminar, that’s a great way of teaching, that’s a great way of working with students, but it shouldn’t just be confined to a tiny of group of students. That should be the way that we teach all students,” said Trustee Richard Barrera, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
At Dana Middle, Principal Scott Irwin said that nothing about the speed or depth of the gifted classes changed when the school switched to an honors program.
“The content that was taught wasn’t really changed. What changed was the number of students who were given access,” Irwin said.
Parents argue that the district should keep and expand gifted programs, as well as other advanced course offerings, because they say general classes don’t challenge all students or capitalize on students’ potential. Parents say they’re concerned the district is letting the program dwindle rather than doing more to make it accessible and equitable.
“San Diego Unified, it appears, is systematically eliminating programs that serve very specific needs for students,” said Happy Aston, a parent of two students in the GATE program and a GATE representative for her school.
San Diego Unified leaves it up to school principals to decide whether to offer a gifted program. As a result, gifted program offerings are inconsistent across the district.
While most of San Diego Unified’s more than 170 schools said they offered a GATE Cluster program as of 2020, only 38 were offering classes for GATE Seminar, which is the more advanced component of GATE. Most of them were offered in the district’s wealthiest clusters — Scripps Ranch, La Jolla, University City and Point Loma — which also have the most gifted-identified students.
San Diego Unified requires that classes enroll 25 percent GATE Cluster students to be called a Cluster class and 50 percent GATE Seminar students to be called a Seminar class. So even if a school enrolls some students identified for Seminar, there’s no guarantee the school will offer GATE classes if there aren’t enough students to meet those thresholds.
If a Seminar-identified student’s neighborhood school doesn’t offer Seminar, the district allows them to enroll in a different school that does. But it’s on the student’s family to provide transportation.
Principals often spread out gifted-identified students across classrooms, which allows them to call those classes “GATE,” rather than grouping GATE students together, which studies have shown is beneficial for gifted students’ learning, said Mary Ann Hawke, past chair of the district’s GATE advisory committee.
“In reality that just means that none of their classes are GATE,” Hawke said in an email. “And that is the feedback we are getting from a lot of GATE parents, that GATE education is in name only and is not actually happening.”
Maria Montgomery, San Diego Unified instructional support officer who helps coordinate the GATE program, said the district supports the program by paying for teachers to be certified in GATE teaching and paying for the gifted identification screenings. The district also provides principals a binder with guidance for their GATE programs, Montgomery said.
*Not much incentive*
The shrinkage of San Diego Unified’s gifted program mirrors a larger trend in California, where gifted education has become increasingly uncommon.
California is one of a minority of states that does do not require schools to identify gifted students, let alone offer gifted education. California is also one of an even smaller number of states that do not have a definition for what constitutes “gifted.”
Only 56 percent of California schools identified gifted students in the 2015-2016 school year, down from 74 percent in 2000, according to a Purdue University report.
That decline can largely be attributed to the fact that California no longer provides funding to schools for gifted education.
The state used to provide funding for gifted education until 2014, when the state switched to the Local Control Funding Formula. The formula gave school districts freedom in how they spend their money but eliminated funding that was allocated for specific school programs, like bus transportation and gifted education.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> It is why I moved my kids out of public schools years ago.


I just came back from my daughter's college signing day and despite obstacles like woke administrations, lazy teachers and counselors, reductions of advanced courses, Covid school closures and general lack of accountability, we had kids going to Dartmouth, Stanford, Notre Dame, Berkley (quite a few), UCLA, Michigan, Colby etc.  It's possible from a public school, just don't expect much help from the school staff in getting there.  The good news is parents are fighting back and expecting more from their public schools.  I hope it can make a difference.

On the flip side, the school has 6x as many kids that won't graduate from their previous record of non-graduating students.  You can thank school closures and remote learning for that.  Although an incompetent principal, aka principal "bag lady", helped cause that situation.  Fortunately, she was forced out, albeit 10 months too late.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Shit like this, which they attempted at my daughter's high school this year.  Fortunately, parents fought back.


Good for you guys for keeping the program.

I will never understand why parents of a struggling kid want to torture the poor child by putting them in an accelerated class.  

But it happens all the time.  The kid can't multiply, but parents and administration want him in 7th grade Algebra.  It's like entering him in the 100M hurdles when his shoelaces are tied together.


----------



## watfly

More parents fighting back in my neck of the woods.









						Sign the Petition
					

Remove Patrick Henry High School Principal Michelle Irwin




					www.change.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I just came back from my daughter's college signing day and despite obstacles like woke administrations, lazy teachers and counselors, reductions of advanced courses, Covid school closures and general lack of accountability, we had kids going to Dartmouth, Stanford, Notre Dame, Berkley (quite a few), UCLA, Michigan, Colby etc.  It's possible from a public school, just don't expect much help from the school staff in getting there.  The good news is parents are fighting back and expecting more from their public schools.  I hope it can make a difference.
> 
> On the flip side, the school has 6x as many kids that won't graduate from their previous record of non-graduating students.  You can thank school closures and remote learning for that.  Although an incompetent principal, aka principal "bag lady", helped cause that situation.  Fortunately, she was forced out, albeit 10 months too late.


I dunno, I might be old school but the first ones to look at in the case of an underperforming student is the parents or legal guardians. I believe in personal responsibility first and foremost . . . like I said probably an old school idea.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I dunno, I might be old school but the first ones to look at in the case of an underperforming student is the parents or legal guardians. I believe in personal responsibility first and foremost . . . like I said probably an old school idea.


I agree, but the problem was greatly exacerbated by school closures and online learning.


----------



## Grace T.

The Monkeypox is here!  Get ready for Pandemic 2: This Time Even More Pandemicky.  Just when you thought it was safe to go back into public gatherings.

Nah....with rare exception like the Godfather 2 or Empire Strikes Back, the sequel is never as good as the original.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1527028273443741696


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> California is also one of an even smaller number of states that do not have a definition for what constitutes “gifted.”


C'mon, man. One step at a time. The "gifted" definition will be worked on as soon as California figures out that tricky "woman" definition.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06

watfly said:


> More parents fighting back in my neck of the woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Remove Patrick Henry High School Principal Michelle Irwin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org


If you connect the dots Scott Irwin is the principle of Dana Middle and Michelle Irwin his wife is the principle of Patrick Henry.  Both are ruining their respective schools in the name of equity. Scott and Michelle are the tip of the iceberg to the infiltration of far left hacks that have infiltrated the schools. They have 100% of the San Diego school board and it will be quite a fight for parents to reclaim what has been lost.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> I dunno, I might be old school but the first ones to look at in the case of an underperforming student is the parents or legal guardians. I believe in personal responsibility first and foremost . . . like I said probably an old school idea.


It is interesting to see the evolution of "cause" (--> blame) for underperforming students. What you state above IS an old-school idea - one that I grew up with and generally agreed with. About three years ago, I saw that the school system in CA had a different approach to addressing the learning gap among students whose first language was not English. I was studying for EL (English Learners) / CLAD (Cross-cultural Language and Academic Development) certification. The test provides certification to teach those whose first language is not English. It is pretty much required to have to teach in CA. Most CA schools won't consider you if you don't have it. The material talked about how blaming English Learners and their parents for underperformance was misplaced. It then offered teaching strategies - good, common-sense strategies - to teach English Learners that allowed them to embrace their parents' culture and generally learn content at a higher rate. I won't say I thought everything was valuable, but there was much that was valuable. I have a better understanding and am better prepared because of it. It was worthwhile.

So, how did we get from the approach of using those strategies to close the knowledge gap to removing advanced classes? I can only surmise that the strategies did not close the gap enough. If I am following things correctly, in my lifetime, we started where responsibility for student learning was very personal - the child and, to an extent, the child's family, but our country had a learning (achievement/career success) gap. Then the onus for student learning shifted toward the schools and teachers. Things may have marginally improved, but the gap still existed. The next step in the evolution of blame for the education gap in America appears to be that America is a racist culture. Course qualifications and pre-requisites are racist and need to be removed. Allowing a non-representative population of students to take gifted/honors classes is racist. Homeschooling is racist. I am not optimistic that this approach will close the gap unless it brings the high achievers down. I'd guess that many of those who would be high achievers will simply withdraw from public school. It may be happening already. I have yet to see any achievement breakdown (test scores, etc.) of the students these districts are losing.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It is interesting to see the evolution of "cause" (--> blame) for underperforming students. What you state above IS an old-school idea - one that I grew up with and generally agreed with. About three years ago, I saw that the school system in CA had a different approach to addressing the learning gap among students whose first language was not English. I was studying for EL (English Learners) / CLAD (Cross-cultural Language and Academic Development) certification. The test provides certification to teach those whose first language is not English. It is pretty much required to have to teach in CA. Most CA schools won't consider you if you don't have it. The material talked about how blaming English Learners and their parents for underperformance was misplaced. It then offered teaching strategies - good, common-sense strategies - to teach English Learners that allowed them to embrace their parents' culture and generally learn content at a higher rate. I won't say I thought everything was valuable, but there was much that was valuable. I have a better understanding and am better prepared because of it. It was worthwhile.
> 
> So, how did we get from the approach of using those strategies to close the knowledge gap to removing advanced classes? I can only surmise that the strategies did not close the gap enough. If I am following things correctly, in my lifetime, we started where responsibility for student learning was very personal - the child and, to an extent, the child's family, but our country had a learning (achievement/career success) gap. Then the onus for student learning shifted toward the schools and teachers. Things may have marginally improved, but the gap still existed. The next step in the evolution of blame for the education gap in America appears to be that America is a racist culture. Course qualifications and pre-requisites are racist and need to be removed. Allowing a non-representative population of students to take gifted/honors classes is racist. Homeschooling is racist. I am not optimistic that this approach will close the gap unless it brings the high achievers down. I'd guess that many of those who would be high achievers will simply withdraw from public school. It may be happening already. I have yet to see any achievement breakdown (test scores, etc.) of the students these districts are losing.


Some of the students don't leave.  They stay in the district, but add a class at RSM, AoPS, or Alpha Star.  

The district ends up eliminating honors material, but  only for those who can't afford to purchase it independently.

Needless to say, this makes the achievement gap even larger.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Some of the students don't leave.  They stay in the district, but add a class at RSM, AoPS, or Alpha Star.
> 
> The district ends up eliminating honors material, but  only for those who can't afford to purchase it independently.
> 
> Needless to say, this makes the achievement gap even larger.


My personal opinion is that the education gap is a class issue that has elements of race yet it's being treated entirely as a race issue. Now let's stop for a second and ask ourselves, if we can't define what a woman is, do we really want to frame the education gap in terms of race which is orders of magnitude more complicated to determine on an individual basis than determining sex? It's not as if we can't identify those who are not achieving - we don't need their DNA. We can see the neighborhoods/schools that are struggling. Is it really because the Honors classes are not representative of the population?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I agree, but the problem was greatly exacerbated by school closures and online learning.


The parents had nowhere to go or work, what were they doing?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> My personal opinion is that the education gap is a class issue that has elements of race yet it's being treated entirely as a race issue. Now let's stop for a second and ask ourselves, if we can't define what a woman is, do we really want to frame the education gap in terms of race which is orders of magnitude more complicated to determine on an individual basis than determining sex? It's not as if we can't identify those who are not achieving - we don't need their DNA. We can see the neighborhoods/schools that are struggling. Is it really because the Honors classes are not representative of the population?


It goes back to redlining, so yes it stems from institutional, deeply imbedded racism.


----------



## Grace T.

13 suspected cases of monkey pox being tracked in Canada and covidian Twitter is alight with Russian bio weapon conspiracy theories and calls for readying the us smallpox vaccine reserve.  Horror stories floating around with what monkey pox does to small kids and pregnant women.

they really need to find better writers for these sequels. In the end it’s all about the writing.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> It goes back to redlining, so yes it stems from institutional, deeply imbedded racism.


Redlining is the root cause of poor academic achievement?

There was redlining against Asian families, too.      By your argument, Chinatown schools should be awful.  But the schools and students in those areas tend to do just fine.

You can tie yourself in knots trying to see everything as the inevitable result of past wrongs.  All it will achieve is making people mad at each other.  

It's better to just see each other as people and try to help each other.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Redlining is the root cause of poor academic achievement?
> 
> There was redlining against Asian families, too.      By your argument, Chinatown schools should be awful.  But the schools and students in those areas tend to do just fine.
> 
> You can tie yourself in knots trying to see everything as the inevitable result of past wrongs.  All it will achieve is making people mad at each other.
> 
> It's better to just see each other as people and try to help each other.


He was reading from his talking points and didn’t bother to actually do any critical thinking. Never mind that everything I was addressing had to do with overcoming the gap - not how the gap originated. Shame on me for expecting anything else from him. Fool me once …



dad4 said:


> It's better to just see each other as people and try to help each other.


This is 100% where we need to be.


----------



## Yours in futbol

kickingandscreaming said:


> The next step in the evolution of blame for the education gap in America appears to be that America is a racist culture. Course qualifications and pre-requisites are racist and need to be removed.


I don't think this is accurate.

For quite some time, differences in educational opportunities and school performance has been tied to class/socio-economic standing.  Even the article that you're responding to focused on class/socio-economic standing in San Diego school districts.

And as a practical matter, it's obvious that a school in a wealthy area will have far more resources to devote to GATE programs in K-5 due to family donations - regardless of the racial breakdown in the schools.

Everything you wrote makes perfect sense -- why distract from that by creating a straw man argument that people are treating it entirely as a race issue?


----------



## Yours in futbol

Hüsker Dü said:


> It goes back to redlining, so yes it stems from institutional, deeply imbedded racism.


His point is not that race has nothing at all to do with academic opportunities (which would be an extreme position to take), rather his point is merely that race is not the underlying issue causing educational disparity.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Yours in futbol said:


> I don't think this is accurate.
> 
> For quite some time, differences in educational opportunities and school performance has been tied to class/socio-economic standing.  Even the article that you're responding to focused on class/socio-economic standing in San Diego school districts.
> 
> And as a practical matter, it's obvious that a school in a wealthy area will have far more resources to devote to GATE programs in K-5 due to family donations - regardless of the racial breakdown in the schools.
> 
> Everything you wrote makes perfect sense -- why distract from that by creating a straw man argument that people are treating it entirely as a race issue?


Yes, I should have qualified "it's being treated entirely as a race issue." There are influential people who are treating it as a race issue - certainly not everyone - but it's supported by quotes in the media that have not been labeled as unsubstantiated or misinformation (a few below).

My point was to go through the evolution of the mainstream ideas that are out to explain why we have this gap and what we have done to close the gap. No doubt, we have many people who span the spectrum of ideas as to what needs to be done and why it needs to be done.

Testing is racist: From the NEA








						The Racist Beginnings of Standardized Testing | NEA
					

From grade school to college, students of color have suffered from the effects of biased testing.




					www.nea.org
				




"We still think there’s something wrong with the kids rather than recognizing their something wrong with the tests," Ibram X. Kendi of the Antiracist Research & Policy Center at Boston University and author of How to be an Antiracist said in October 2020. "Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon ever devised to objectively degrade Black and Brown minds and legally exclude their bodies from prestigious schools."

Homeschooling is racist:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524876338607316999
Gifted classes are racist:








						Schools debate: Gifted and talented, or racist and elitist?
					

Public school programs for the gifted and talented are getting increased scrutiny as critics denounce them as modern-day segregation and push for broader access or outright elimination




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, I should have qualified "it's being treated entirely as a race issue." There are influential people who are treating it as a race issue - certainly not everyone - but it's supported by quotes in the media that have not been labeled as unsubstantiated or misinformation (a few below).
> 
> My point was to go through the evolution of the mainstream ideas that are out to explain why we have this gap and what we have done to close the gap. No doubt, we have many people who span the spectrum of ideas as to what needs to be done and why it needs to be done.
> 
> Testing is racist: From the NEA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Racist Beginnings of Standardized Testing | NEA
> 
> 
> From grade school to college, students of color have suffered from the effects of biased testing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nea.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "We still think there’s something wrong with the kids rather than recognizing their something wrong with the tests," Ibram X. Kendi of the Antiracist Research & Policy Center at Boston University and author of How to be an Antiracist said in October 2020. "Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon ever devised to objectively degrade Black and Brown minds and legally exclude their bodies from prestigious schools."
> 
> Homeschooling is racist:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524876338607316999
> Gifted classes are racist:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools debate: Gifted and talented, or racist and elitist?
> 
> 
> Public school programs for the gifted and talented are getting increased scrutiny as critics denounce them as modern-day segregation and push for broader access or outright elimination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


These are cultural arguments related to race but also to socioeconomic status. Plenty of people get stuck in the mud (some just stay there willfully), others keep getting pushed back in.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> These are cultural arguments related to race but also to socioeconomic status. Plenty of people get stuck in the mud (some just stay there willfully), others keep getting pushed back in.


These are not solely ”cultural arguments”.  When people are persuaded by Kendi’s claims, they take real world actions.

The local community college here recently eliminated their placement tests.  This will result in more kids dropping out of STEM because they were put in the wrong class.  

Why did we do it?  Because the administration didn’t like the scores on the placement tests.  Apparently, it is racist to ask a kid to balance an equation or compute the atomic mass of a molecule.  So, instead of teaching the kid, we eliminate the test.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> These are not solely ”cultural arguments”.  When people are persuaded by Kendi’s claims, they take real world actions.
> 
> The local community college here recently eliminated their placement tests.  This will result in more kids dropping out of STEM because they were put in the wrong class.
> 
> Why did we do it?  Because the administration didn’t like the scores on the placement tests.  Apparently, it is racist to ask a kid to balance an equation or compute the atomic mass of a molecule.  So, instead of teaching the kid, we eliminate the test.


We may well become the low wage, uneducated workforce for the world . . . on the bright side manufacturing here will increase!


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> These are not solely ”cultural arguments”.  When people are persuaded by Kendi’s claims, they take real world actions.
> 
> The local community college here recently eliminated their placement tests.  This will result in more kids dropping out of STEM because they were put in the wrong class.
> 
> Why did we do it?  Because the administration didn’t like the scores on the placement tests.  Apparently, it is racist to ask a kid to balance an equation or compute the atomic mass of a molecule.  So, instead of teaching the kid, we eliminate the test.


Part of the problem is the test can also reflect how teachers are teaching. So bad test scores can make it appears teachers aren't teaching, so lets not test, then we can't blame teachers or students for doing poorly because we won't know how they are actually doing.  

But I don't even blame teachers, some years ago parents starting placing poor test scores and grades solely on teachers and instead of holding their own kid accountable, they blame it on the education.  Here's the news flash...parents are the best teachers, if they don't hold kids accountable chances are the kid will not achieve....but more of the problem is there are way way too many lazy parents and they want someone else to help raise their kid...sad


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Part of the problem is the test can also reflect how teachers are teaching. So bad test scores can make it appears teachers aren't teaching, so lets not test, then we can't blame teachers or students for doing poorly because we won't know how they are actually doing.
> 
> But I don't even blame teachers, some years ago parents starting placing poor test scores and grades solely on teachers and instead of holding their own kid accountable, they blame it on the education.  Here's the news flash...parents are the best teachers, if they don't hold kids accountable chances are the kid will not achieve....but more of the problem is there are way way too many lazy parents and they want someone else to help raise their kid...sad


We agree on that.


----------



## watfly

Fauci Recommends Stopping Spread Of Monkeypox By Covering Eyes, Ears, Mouth
					

WASHINGTON, D.C.—The Monkeypox pandemic has finally breached the shores of the United States, with the CDC confirming a staggering 1 infections so far. In response, America's favorite, most trusted doctor, Dr. Anthony Fauci, issued a statement recommending people stop the spread of Monkeypox by...




					babylonbee.com
				




Have you seen what MonkeyPox looks like? F'that I'm volunteering for the first vaccine trial.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Hunter the Ukraine energy expert, made over $11 Million in 5 years from 2013-2018 and was spending $200,000 a month on stuff.  Wowza and holy moly all in one!!!  The other Senators also had their Sons of Bitches become energy experts like Hunter so they too could gained access to $$$$$$ and help their families get even richer so they can have real wealth and live like Kings on earth.  The rest of us will be Serfs of them.  Crazy ass times we all find ourselves in.  Monkeypox or some pox is coming this summer.  They say, "it's not over" and whatever they say, we have to obey to be able to buy and sell in this rigged system we were all born into.  I warned all of you three years ago that our financial system is rigged and the #1 profit center of this rigged system is Human Trafficking and wars plus  _______________________________!((I won't write it, you can guess)).  The families at the very very top, are wealthy bloodlines from the beginning of time that control all of us.  They want us to be full of fear, full of hate, full of division, full of war and full of shit, all so they could make off like bandits from our hate and wars.  They supply the weapons and the officiating and we send our kids to fight.  What a world!!


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Hunter the Ukraine energy expert, made over $11 Million in 5 years from 2013-2018 and was spending $200,000 a month on stuff.  Wowza and holy moly all in one!!!  The other Senators also had their Sons of Bitches become energy experts like Hunter so they too could gained access to $$$$$$ and help their families get even richer so they can have real wealth and live like Kings on earth.  The rest of us will be Serfs of them.  Crazy ass times we all find ourselves in.  Monkeypox or some pox is coming this summer.  They say, "it's not over" and whatever they say, we have to obey to be able to buy and sell in this rigged system we were all born into.  I warned all of you three years ago that our financial system is rigged and the #1 profit center of this rigged system is Human Trafficking and wars plus  _______________________________!((I won't write it, you can guess)).  The families at the very very top, are wealthy bloodlines from the beginning of time that control all of us.  They want us to be full of fear, full of hate, full of division, full of war and full of shit, all so they could make off like bandits from our hate and wars.  They supply the weapons and the officiating and we send our kids to fight.  What a world!!


11M?   Chump change.  

Take a look at what Mitch McConnell’s wife makes from China.  Her family aren’t special consultants.  They own a Chinese shipping company.  So, any time CCP needs to funnel a few hundred million to Chao/McConnell, they just sign a contact with Foremost Group.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> 11M?   Chump change.
> 
> Take a look at what Mitch McConnell’s wife makes from China.  Her family aren’t special consultants.  They own a Chinese shipping company.  So, any time CCP needs to funnel a few hundred million to Chao/McConnell, they just sign a contact with Foremost Group.


While their is potential for corruption with the McConnell situation, comparing the two is apples and oranges.  Her company is actually providing a service.  Hunter provides no such thing other than influence.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> 11M?   Chump change.
> 
> Take a look at what Mitch McConnell’s wife makes from China.  Her family aren’t special consultants.  They own a Chinese shipping company.  So, any time CCP needs to funnel a few hundred million to Chao/McConnell, they just sign a contact with Foremost Group.


$11 Million was what one family member got paid Dad.  That is not Chump Change for a Son of a Senator.  Mitch is a Senator, so he will make more than Hunter's Chump change, because he was only a Senator son.  Name me another Senator Son to take in $11,000,000 in 5 years and had a $200,000 a month allowance to spend on whatever he wanted.  Let's compare Apples to Apples.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> $11 Million was what one family member got paid Dad.  That is not Chump Change for a Son of a Senator.  Mitch is a Senator, so he will make more than Hunter's Chump change, because he was only a Senator son.  Name me another Senator Son to take in $11,000,000 in 5 years and had a $200,000 a month allowance to spend on whatever he wanted.  Let's compare Apples to Apples.


What does Chao‘s family make on Chinese state contracts?  Hint: it’s not measured in millions.

I agree it isn‘t apples to apples.  It’s ants to elephants.  And Hunter Biden is the ant.  An unqualified ant being paid for influence, but still an ant.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> What does Chao‘s family make on Chinese state contracts?  Hint: it’s not measured in millions.
> 
> I agree it isn‘t apples to apples.  It’s ants to elephants.  And Hunter Biden is the ant.  An unqualified ant being paid for influence, but still an ant.


The old crow is making $$$$$ and were all paying for it now.  You do see that now, right?  Dennis Prager say's he can afford $7 gas but others can't.  I can't afford this at all.  Not only do they want us to roll our sleeves up for the jab(s), they want us to pay for their mistakes.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> While their is potential for corruption with the McConnell situation, comparing the two is apples and oranges.  Her company is actually providing a service.  Hunter provides no such thing other than influence.


Potential?  The former Secretary of Transportation is the daughter of the owner of a large shipping company that received unusual treatment by the US government-- that's prima facie evidence of corruption.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Potential?  The Secretary of Transportation is the daughter of the owner of a large shipping company that received unusual treatment by the US government-- that's prima facie evidence of corruption.


Great job detective.  Both sides have their hands caught in the cookie jar and they don't want to let go of the cookie after being caught.  Let's be real and fix this shit once and for all Espola.  It's going to take a team effort, meaning you have to put America first and it's citizens and not the citizens of Ukraine or one party.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Potential?  The Secretary of Transportation is the daughter of the owner of a large shipping company that received unusual treatment by the US government-- that's prima facie evidence of corruption.


Then she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as well as, Hunter and Joe.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Then she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as well as, Hunter and Joe.


There is plenty of evidence for Chao favoring Foremost in government relations (not to mention the advantages Kentucky companies got at DOT during her tenure).  What do you have on Hunter and Joe?


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> There is plenty of evidence for Chao favoring Foremost in government relations (not to mention the advantages Kentucky companies got at DOT during her tenure).  What do you have on Hunter and Joe?


Start Here Re:Hunter & Joe








						Hunter Biden Laptop Scandal Is the Ultimate American Information Operation
					

Our Ruling Class' obsession with Russian information has served as a diversion from the information operations it has been running against domestic foes.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## baldref

dad4 said:


> 11M?   Chump change.
> 
> Take a look at what Mitch McConnell’s wife makes from China.  Her family aren’t special consultants.  They own a Chinese shipping company.  So, any time CCP needs to funnel a few hundred million to Chao/McConnell, they just sign a contact with Foremost Group.


You do understand that this response/argument is the reason nothing gets done? They're all the same, Left or right. Neither is acceptable and the dollar amounts don't matter. Saying one is worse than the other accomplishes nothing. 

Your defense of the Biden's by citing the McConnell's is ridiculous. You can't see that?


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Start Here Re:Hunter & Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden Laptop Scandal Is the Ultimate American Information Operation
> 
> 
> Our Ruling Class' obsession with Russian information has served as a diversion from the information operations it has been running against domestic foes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


Is that your best effort?  An opinion piece by a self-proclaimed right-winger who asks a lot of questions to which he admits he has no answers.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Lion Eyes said:


> Start Here Re:Hunter & Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden Laptop Scandal Is the Ultimate American Information Operation
> 
> 
> Our Ruling Class' obsession with Russian information has served as a diversion from the information operations it has been running against domestic foes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


It doesn't bode well for our country when the media is as corrupt as our worst politicians.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> It doesn't bode well for our country when the media is as corrupt as our worst politicians.


100% brother.  It's about time we all look at this corruption head on and take the power back to the people.  I pick no side politically or in religion.  I only pick one side, the truth, the whole truth ((not half truth)) by the way and only the whole truth, so help me someone ((like the Creator of all this)).  It's time to reform this place and start a whole new game where truth, honesty and fairness is the foundation.  The more you give the more you can take.  I feel like we have so many takers and not enough givers.  I love to give first bro and it has worked wonders in my marriage.


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> Is that your best effort?  An opinion piece by a self-proclaimed right-winger who asks a lot of questions to which he admits he has no answers.


Best effort? You should be happy I replied at all.

You once again fall back on your standard reply Magoo...label it opinion from a right winger, 
I was simply trying to point your wine infused & obviously made up mind in a "look and you shall find" direction.
I'll try again...although it is afternoon so the wine has begun to flow for you.

From NBC News:
From 2013 through 2018 Hunter Biden and his company brought in about $11 million via his roles as an attorney and a board member with a Ukrainian firm accused of bribery and his work with a Chinese businessman now accused of fraud, according to an NBC News analysis of a copy of Biden’s hard drive and iCloud account and documents released by Republicans on two Senate committees. 

The documents and the analysis, which don’t show what he did to earn millions from his Chinese partners, raise questions about national security, business ethics and potential legal exposure.








						Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm earned about $11 million from 2013 to 2018
					

The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.




					www.nbcnews.com
				





This will probably just confuse you...

Joe also claims he never, ever met with Hunters business partners....bless his little heart.








						Sen. Hagerty asks AG Garland if Joe Biden was ‘involved with’ Hunter’s business deals
					

Sen. Bill Hagerty on Tuesday pressed Attorney General Merrick Garland about the appearance that President Biden “was involved with” his son Hunter Biden’s overseas business dealin…




					nypost.com


----------



## Desert Hound

This has been covered in depth some time ago. 

Our political class has all kinds of dirty deals. 






						Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends: 9780062569370: Schweizer, Peter: Books
					

Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends: 9780062569370: Schweizer, Peter: Books



					www.amazon.com


----------



## crush

Lion Eyes said:


> Best effort? You should be happy I replied at all.
> 
> You once again fall back on your standard reply Magoo...label it opinion from a right winger,
> I was simply trying to point your wine infused & obviously made up mind in a "look and you shall find" direction.
> I'll try again...although it is afternoon so the wine has begun to flow for you.
> 
> From NBC News:
> From 2013 through 2018 Hunter Biden and his company brought in about $11 million via his roles as an attorney and a board member with a Ukrainian firm accused of bribery and his work with a Chinese businessman now accused of fraud, according to an NBC News analysis of a copy of Biden’s hard drive and iCloud account and documents released by Republicans on two Senate committees.
> 
> The documents and the analysis, which don’t show what he did to earn millions from his Chinese partners, raise questions about national security, business ethics and potential legal exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm earned about $11 million from 2013 to 2018
> 
> 
> The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will probably just confuse you...
> 
> Joe also claims he never, ever met with Hunters business partners....bless his little heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sen. Hagerty asks AG Garland if Joe Biden was ‘involved with’ Hunter’s business deals
> 
> 
> Sen. Bill Hagerty on Tuesday pressed Attorney General Merrick Garland about the appearance that President Biden “was involved with” his son Hunter Biden’s overseas business dealin…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


*The attorney Hunter*

*Mr. Ho was a business partner with Hunter and they killed it in Energy together.  *


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> This has been covered in depth some time ago.
> 
> Our political class has all kinds of dirty deals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends: 9780062569370: Schweizer, Peter: Books
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends: 9780062569370: Schweizer, Peter: Books
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> It doesn't bode well for our country when the media is as corrupt as our worst politicians.


The problem with the Hunter Biden scandal is that the press was not interested. Immediately they said it was disinformation and refused to even investigate. We knew then and know now that it is legit as the press has come around. 

The larger problem is when you contrast how they immediately dismissed that vs treating us to daily "bombshells" about Trump and Russia. All of which back then you could see was false (since they never provided any evidence other than sources say). And of course the investigation turned up nothing vs Trump. 

Based on how they handled the 2 issues the partisanship could not be any clearer.


----------



## crush

*The WHO and African scientists baffled by monkeypox cases in Europe, US*
*Scientists in Africa are struggling to understand the origins of a recent monkeypox outbreak in North America and Europe*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1527689564751597568


----------



## Brav520

Lion Eyes said:


> Best effort? You should be happy I replied at all.
> 
> You once again fall back on your standard reply Magoo...label it opinion from a right winger,
> I was simply trying to point your wine infused & obviously made up mind in a "look and you shall find" direction.
> I'll try again...although it is afternoon so the wine has begun to flow for you.
> 
> From NBC News:
> From 2013 through 2018 Hunter Biden and his company brought in about $11 million via his roles as an attorney and a board member with a Ukrainian firm accused of bribery and his work with a Chinese businessman now accused of fraud, according to an NBC News analysis of a copy of Biden’s hard drive and iCloud account and documents released by Republicans on two Senate committees.
> 
> The documents and the analysis, which don’t show what he did to earn millions from his Chinese partners, raise questions about national security, business ethics and potential legal exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm earned about $11 million from 2013 to 2018
> 
> 
> The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will probably just confuse you...
> 
> Joe also claims he never, ever met with Hunters business partners....bless his little heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sen. Hagerty asks AG Garland if Joe Biden was ‘involved with’ Hunter’s business deals
> 
> 
> Sen. Bill Hagerty on Tuesday pressed Attorney General Merrick Garland about the appearance that President Biden “was involved with” his son Hunter Biden’s overseas business dealin…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


he knows what’s on the laptop

he doesn’t care


----------



## dad4

Lion Eyes said:


> Best effort? You should be happy I replied at all.
> 
> You once again fall back on your standard reply Magoo...label it opinion from a right winger,
> I was simply trying to point your wine infused & obviously made up mind in a "look and you shall find" direction.
> I'll try again...although it is afternoon so the wine has begun to flow for you.
> 
> From NBC News:
> From 2013 through 2018 Hunter Biden and his company brought in about $11 million via his roles as an attorney and a board member with a Ukrainian firm accused of bribery and his work with a Chinese businessman now accused of fraud, according to an NBC News analysis of a copy of Biden’s hard drive and iCloud account and documents released by Republicans on two Senate committees.
> 
> The documents and the analysis, which don’t show what he did to earn millions from his Chinese partners, raise questions about national security, business ethics and potential legal exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm earned about $11 million from 2013 to 2018
> 
> 
> The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will probably just confuse you...
> 
> Joe also claims he never, ever met with Hunters business partners....bless his little heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sen. Hagerty asks AG Garland if Joe Biden was ‘involved with’ Hunter’s business deals
> 
> 
> Sen. Bill Hagerty on Tuesday pressed Attorney General Merrick Garland about the appearance that President Biden “was involved with” his son Hunter Biden’s overseas business dealin…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Ok.  You've convinced me.  I will never vote for Hunter Biden.

Honestly, who in their right mind would vote for a tax cheat who ruins his businesses and hangs out with prostitutes?  

Can you imagine someone like that as President?  It would be a disaster.


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Best effort? You should be happy I replied at all.
> 
> You once again fall back on your standard reply Magoo...label it opinion from a right winger,
> I was simply trying to point your wine infused & obviously made up mind in a "look and you shall find" direction.
> I'll try again...although it is afternoon so the wine has begun to flow for you.
> 
> From NBC News:
> From 2013 through 2018 Hunter Biden and his company brought in about $11 million via his roles as an attorney and a board member with a Ukrainian firm accused of bribery and his work with a Chinese businessman now accused of fraud, according to an NBC News analysis of a copy of Biden’s hard drive and iCloud account and documents released by Republicans on two Senate committees.
> 
> The documents and the analysis, which don’t show what he did to earn millions from his Chinese partners, raise questions about national security, business ethics and potential legal exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm earned about $11 million from 2013 to 2018
> 
> 
> The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will probably just confuse you...
> 
> Joe also claims he never, ever met with Hunters business partners....bless his little heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sen. Hagerty asks AG Garland if Joe Biden was ‘involved with’ Hunter’s business deals
> 
> 
> Sen. Bill Hagerty on Tuesday pressed Attorney General Merrick Garland about the appearance that President Biden “was involved with” his son Hunter Biden’s overseas business dealin…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


I see more questions without answers.  Please try harder.


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> he knows what’s on the laptop
> 
> he doesn’t care


What's on the laptop?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> I see more questions without answers.  Please try harder.



I agree , Hunter deserves benefit of the doubt 

we should proceed with house hearings once the Rs take over in Jan

democracy is on the brink


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> What's on the laptop?


You’ll of course get crickets on that one as it’s just another nutter whistle.


----------



## met61

espola said:


> What's on the laptop?


...the Truth will set you free...


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> I see more questions without answers.  Please try harder.


None so blind as those who will not see.
I'll settle for you simply just trying...


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’ll of course get crickets on that one as it’s just another nutter whistle.


One more example of removing all doubt.


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> What's on the laptop?


Who's on first?


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> Ok.  You've convinced me.  I will never vote for Hunter Biden.
> 
> Honestly, who in their right mind would vote for a tax cheat who ruins his businesses and hangs out with prostitutes?
> 
> Can you imagine someone like that as President?  It would be a disaster.


...you just described most politicians.

...if your main issue is personality and tabloid fodder, then congratulations! ...you've achieved an economic class... where inflation, gas prices, and illegals pouring across the border does not touch you...Well done!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

met61 said:


> ...the Truth will set you free...
> 
> View attachment 13600


Blow that whistle pepe’.


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Who's on first?


You are following the theme of questions without answers very well.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You are following the theme of questions without answers very well.


We call it, “the Magoo Method”…..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> We call it, “the Magoo Method”…..


“We”, isn’t that cute.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> “We”, isn’t that cute.


Yah…jealous?


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> You are following the theme of questions without answers very well.


You could always seek answers yourself Magoo...


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> You could always seek answers yourself Magoo...


When I asked "What's on the laptop?" directed at those who seem to know, don't you think that was what I was doing?


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> When I asked "What's on the laptop?" directed at those who seem to know, don't you think that was what I was doing?


I just thought you were being lazy...the answers are out there.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> When I asked "What's on the laptop?" directed at those who seem to know, don't you think that was what I was doing?


Just another inside nutter thing. If one is a nutter they just know, they don’t actually know anything they can explain, they just know it is bad. Lol! These nutters are certainly special.


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> I just thought you were being lazy...the answers are out there.


Is there anything more than "personally embarrassing information that was of tenuous public interest", as it was characterized by The Atlantic?

If you have anything real, let's discuss it.


----------



## dad4

Lion Eyes said:


> I just thought you were being lazy...the answers are out there.


The _Truth_ is out there…..


----------



## met61

dad4 said:


> The _Truth_ is out there…..
> 
> View attachment 13609


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just another inside nutter thing. If one is a nutter they just know, they don’t actually know anything they can explain, they just know it is bad. Lol! These nutters are certainly special.


"Look it up on google..."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1322961854923075584


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Just another inside nutter thing. If one is a nutter they just know, they don’t actually know anything they can explain, they just know it is bad. Lol! These nutters are certainly special.


You and Espola are nuts.  We all know it.  What happen to your other avatar pal?  You lost Husker Du because you support killing babies.  I told you, Golgen Gate and Espola that the kids will win.  You can't kill off creation that the Creator created.  That is foolish and stupid at best.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> "Look it up on google..."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1322961854923075584


Hey Grandpa, have you seen what's really on the lap top from hell?  Google is not the place to look.  Google has only what Google wants you to see, just like Twitter only wants you to read what they think is truth.  The real TRUTH is already here!!!


----------



## crush

*Sunday Sermon*​


FYI-The "k" is silent........


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I honestly really want to know out of curiosity only the following Q.  WHO here at the Socal Soccer Forum is going to take the Monkeypox Vaccine? Dad?  NoCalDad?  Husker Du?  Espola?  
Q for @watfly .  If your Dr. says to take the Monkey Vaccine, will you?  Let's be HOT today you guys. Remember, HOT stands for Honest, Open and Transparent.


----------



## crush

Just as people were moving past the COVID-19 Plandemic and being forcefully jabbed 4+ times ((or get fired)), a new outbreak has been reported out of Africa that has nothing to do with the Rona.  We still have no clue what Bill and Dr. F mixed in these shots that so many of my pals were first in line to receive.  The adverse reaction website news is being blocked and messed with as I write this,  so we have no true idea what the real truth that is causing the blocking of people's arteries and causing blood clots and then heart attack and then death at the highest rate ever recorded.  Myocarditis is now normal for kids to catch and Bells Palsy and losing the feeling of half your face is now normal as well.  I went up to Mt. Shasta and saw Rivers and Streams.  We all have a living stream in our bodies.  It's called the blood stream.  Watch the water and watch what you put in your stream of life.  Back to the news:  On Sunday, speaking to reporters, President Joe Biden warned about the not-so-new monkeypox. For those who might not know, Scientific American defines monkeypox as “smallpox-like skin lesions, but symptoms are usually milder than those of smallpox. *Flu-like symptoms* are common initially, ranging from fever and headache to shortness of breath.”


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> Is there anything more than "personally embarrassing information that was of tenuous public interest", as it was characterized by The Atlantic?
> 
> If you have anything real, let's discuss it.




Joe Biden has lied about having ever met with Hunter's business associates...why would he do that?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This about say's it all for me you guys.  My lib pal see's the light and were on the same team now and I love that.  My other lib pal is like Husker Du and will not open his eyes to the truth.  









						NAZI DUBYA of DUMB and DUMBER fame
					

Russia permanently bans 963 Americans including Biden and Harris from entering the country, according to a list published on Saturday. Trump is not on the list.




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> "Look it up on google..."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1322961854923075584


That about says it all.


----------



## crush

Ladies & Gentleman and my fellow Brothers and Sisters, tomorrow is going to be the greatest day for life and the babies.  Let's all rejoice and be glad for the babies who will be born now   It's been a long and hard and hard fought battles of emotions for over 50 yeas for me personally and many others, regardless if you supported life or death for babies or the selling of the fetus ub until the birth.  I debated some serious smart assholes who wanted babies killed and it was tough to debate these people at times. I see a big victory for those who came here to speak on behalf of the baby who can't talk in the womb about his/her desire to come out and play.  I told everyone that the Creator of this planet wants all life to be created.  If we fix a few things morally as a human race, we can have a very prosperous time on this great planet.  I came here to help us all.  First off, we all need to interstand who the real boss is.  It's not this guys anymore.


----------



## crush

The real boss is coming to fix this place.   We tried but way too much cheating.  Everything and just about everyone is compromised through being bought with a job, bribed for a position or blackmailed to do as told or else.  Happy Sunday my fellow Americans.  I love you all 

https://rumble.com/v15p5fg-love-the-boss.html


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe Biden has lied about having ever met with Hunter's business associates...why would he do that?


Is that what's on the laptop?


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> Is that what's on the laptop?


When you sober up in the AM this will give you something to digest...

Hunter Biden's top business partner had met with then-vice President Joe Biden in one of 19 visits he made to the White House between 2009 and 2015, according to visitor logs from the Obama administration. 

Eric Schwerin, former president of Hunter's now-dissolved firm Rosemont Seneca, met with Biden on November 17, 2010, just as Hunter was striking multi-million dollar deals abroad, the New York Post reported.

The logs revealed that Schwerin made a total of 19 visits to the White House during Biden's vice presidency, with nine of those visits including meetings with Biden, members of his staff and members of Jill Biden's staff. 









						Joe Biden met with Hunter's top business partner at the White House
					

Eric Schwerin, former president of Hunter's now-dissolved firm Rosemont Seneca, met with Joe Biden in 2010, one of nine meetings he had at the White House with Biden and his staffers.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Just for sheots and grins...








						Joe Biden sticking to claim he and Hunter Biden never talked about foreign business: Psaki
					

Former Hunter Biden business partner Tony Bobulinski alleges that he met with Joe Biden to discuss the CEFC venture on May 2, 2017, and that the president was the “big guy.”




					nypost.com


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> When you sober up in the AM this will give you something to digest...
> 
> Hunter Biden's top business partner had met with then-vice President Joe Biden in one of 19 visits he made to the White House between 2009 and 2015, according to visitor logs from the Obama administration.
> 
> Eric Schwerin, former president of Hunter's now-dissolved firm Rosemont Seneca, met with Biden on November 17, 2010, just as Hunter was striking multi-million dollar deals abroad, the New York Post reported.
> 
> The logs revealed that Schwerin made a total of 19 visits to the White House during Biden's vice presidency, with nine of those visits including meetings with Biden, members of his staff and members of Jill Biden's staff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden met with Hunter's top business partner at the White House
> 
> 
> Eric Schwerin, former president of Hunter's now-dissolved firm Rosemont Seneca, met with Joe Biden in 2010, one of nine meetings he had at the White House with Biden and his staffers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for sheots and grins...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Biden sticking to claim he and Hunter Biden never talked about foreign business: Psaki
> 
> 
> Former Hunter Biden business partner Tony Bobulinski alleges that he met with Joe Biden to discuss the CEFC venture on May 2, 2017, and that the president was the “big guy.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Is that what's on the laptop?


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> Is that what's on the laptop?


Have you read both articles you lazy fuck?


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Have you read both articles you lazy fuck?


Yet another exhibit.


----------



## crush

Lion Eyes said:


> Have you read both articles you lazy fuck?


Trust me, Espola knows what's going on and we all know what side he supports.  Let's see how Grandpa deals with the truth this week.


----------



## watfly

Lion Eyes said:


> Have you read both articles you lazy fuck?


In Espola's defense he and Biden are kindred spirits.


----------



## crush

Kash is saying that Peter and Lisa have flipped on HRC.  Mook already flipped on her last Friday and Kash thinks the trial will be over this weekend with Sus.  You never go for the Queen early in chess.   Mook most likely is now in witness protection program.  Killary invested $100,000,000 to find and plant some crimes on t.  Think how you would do if all of DC snooped through all your stuff.  t must be clean and like t said, he's is one of the most honest people around and that the real boss is going to have to help us all out.  I mean really, look at the mess that cheating and lying have accomplished.  No one likes being spied on.  No one likes being cheated on.  All that is hard to take but when the person who did all the lying, cheating and spying get's caught but blames you for the crimes that they actually committed, well then all gloves come off, especially if you cheated and lied to America.  That not wise and you will lose and face punishment for selling us all American Citizens out.  The double cross, pony dog liars around this planet will be taken off one by one. Cheat kids out of life by killing them before they get a chance is complete and utter nonsense and Coo Coo.  Start a pandemic and scare the elderly and ruin teens lives is cruel and evil.  Force jab or get fired is evil!!!  Spy and snitch on friends is total Loserville.  Hire Mules to steal election is weak and stupid.  This place is bought, bribed and blackmailed folks and I warned all of you about this.  If you like all this, then you will have to endure the worlds wrath and the Creators wrath soon and stand up for cheating and lying to make money and see what the world will think of you.


----------



## crush

From Mr. t

"Dr. Deborah Birx, while working as a top health official in government, lost all credibility when she told people, in the strongest of terms, NOT TO TRAVEL DURING A MAJOR HOLIDAY because of the China Virus. She then traveled a very long distance to be with a large number of people within her family. What she did was so shameful and egregious that* her own family actually turned her in. So cool!* How much did they hate her? She had few dresses, many scarves, and no “class.” I said, You’re Fired!!!


----------



## crush

Lisa:  I love you Peter

Pete: I love you Lisa

Lisa: He's not going to become President, right?  Right?!

Pete:  No, no he won't.  We will stop it, plus we got insurance policy.


----------



## crush

I went to a cool party without mask this past weekend and had a chat with a few of my bff lib pals who were all in with the Jab mandates, Biden, Mask Enforcement, Ukraine, WWW3 and 100% for Abortion up to 6 months before birth.  Now, they don;t want to talk to me at all.  When I walk in a room or get to the fields, I am 100% confident.  I am not afraid of anyone of you who tried to bully me and threaten me to STFU or else and stay away from the fields!!!  They see me at the party and turn the other way, classic!!!  These guys are funny when they lose.  They used to be able to pay to play and pay their way to the top and get theior kids to the top as well.  I find them now and then we talk and then they get uncomfortable and  then have to look at me in the eyes and then they leave.  I did ask one rich elitist type pal of mine if he still is riding with Biden.  He told me, "no way bro.  I was wrong about that dude and I'm done with politics forever."  I asked him about the future of money and he told me that the system has failed and we fail.  This guy knows everything about money.  He said a new system is coming, he just doesn't know which one and if the good guys or bad guys will be in charge.  I told him the Great Reset was on it's way to victory until HRC lost somehow to Trump.  As soon as I said that, he walked away.


----------



## crush

*Looks like the Supremes will not be bullied around and will wait until summer to make big announcement on the decision to send Roe back down to each State and then let each State decide on Abortion.  *


----------



## Grace T.

Check this vid out.  What a nightmare from an English speaking person teaching in Shanghai.  A few conclusions we can draw too:

1. We still don't have complete understanding how the virus is transmitted.  These people either caught it outside on their balcony, through the sewage, through the ventilation, or through the floor in their apartment despite being in hard lockdown with no outside contact.

2. If people live in apartments, even ones that aren't very dense, containing COVID was always going to be fantasy.  You can reduce it but not contain it, particularly at current transmission levels.  Apartment usage alone would go a long way to describing the different impacts in various LA zip codes.

3. Unless China is going to hard shut its border in perpetuity what are they doing here?  What's the end goal?  There's always going to be reseeding and people will have to go through these nightmares over and over again.  Those masks really did a good job too in avoiding lockdowns.

4. What a nightmare.  Always remember this is what the zero COVID folks wanted for us, for something which now amounts to a bad cold.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Check this vid out.  What a nightmare from an English speaking person teaching in Shanghai.  A few conclusions we can draw too:
> 
> 1. We still don't have complete understanding how the virus is transmitted.  These people either caught it outside on their balcony, through the sewage, through the ventilation, or through the floor in their apartment despite being in hard lockdown with no outside contact.
> 
> 2. If people live in apartments, even ones that aren't very dense, containing COVID was always going to be fantasy.  You can reduce it but not contain it, particularly at current transmission levels.  Apartment usage alone would go a long way to describing the different impacts in various LA zip codes.
> 
> 3. Unless China is going to hard shut its border in perpetuity what are they doing here?  What's the end goal?  There's always going to be reseeding and people will have to go through these nightmares over and over again.  Those masks really did a good job too in avoiding lockdowns.
> 
> 4. What a nightmare.  Always remember this is what the zero COVID folks wanted for us, for something which now amounts to a bad cold.


Hard core is coming this Summer or in the Fall because.  The first beta test Grace T was to see how easy it is to fool people once and even twice.  The third time is a charm but my bet is with the American people, not either party.  We have sell outs on both sides and Julian said that what he got from Seth would send 98% of the swamp to jail.  No joke Grace.  Then of course we got the lap tops from hell, all the cheating that went on and last but not least, a bat virus that escaped the Wuhan Zoo that shut our lives down ((unless you were on the side of grab & go)) and now a monkey has escaped the Zoo and has Pox with him/her.  What next Grace T?  How do you sea the world today after the last 6 years of being lied to from both sides who were on the side of cheating?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Check this vid out.  What a nightmare from an English speaking person teaching in Shanghai.  A few conclusions we can draw too:
> 
> 1. We still don't have complete understanding how the virus is transmitted.  These people either caught it outside on their balcony, through the sewage, through the ventilation, or through the floor in their apartment despite being in hard lockdown with no outside contact.
> 
> 2. If people live in apartments, even ones that aren't very dense, containing COVID was always going to be fantasy.  You can reduce it but not contain it, particularly at current transmission levels.  Apartment usage alone would go a long way to describing the different impacts in various LA zip codes.
> 
> 3. Unless China is going to hard shut its border in perpetuity what are they doing here?  What's the end goal?  There's always going to be reseeding and people will have to go through these nightmares over and over again.  Those masks really did a good job too in avoiding lockdowns.
> 
> 4. What a nightmare.  Always remember this is what the zero COVID folks wanted for us, for something which now amounts to a bad cold.


So you keep saying.

Let me know when your argument finally acknowledges the million people who died of your “bad cold”.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> So you keep saying.
> 
> Let me know when your argument finally acknowledges the million people who died of your “bad cold”.


Out of curiosity, can you acknowledge that out of the 1 million that died that roughly 950,000 died with on average 4 other comorbidities? Or as the CDC also calls them "causes of death".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So you keep saying.
> 
> Let me know when your argument finally acknowledges the million people who died of your “bad cold”.


As you know I came down with it the first couple weeks of it here in the US with one very scary night which only an experimental choice by my doctor kept me out of the ER and god knows what we would have done with the kids.   Set aside the arguments over overcounts, comorbities, or attenuated virus....we have the vaccine now that renders it not the same thing as at the beginning of this.

The fact that you (who have gone out of the way to avoid it, and boast about your trust in the Science TM and vaccines) are lecturing me on this point (who came down with it at the very beginning) is just so full of irony I can't help but smile.  Unless secretly you don't really believe in vaccines and the science.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> So you keep saying.
> 
> Let me know when your argument finally acknowledges the million people who died of your “bad cold”.


Dad, it was a bad flu virus mixed with bat.  Once that got to our shores from China, those with more than 4 underlying healthy issues had the main risk of dying.  I chose to quit eating meat, no more booze and went healthy with my mind, body and soul.  It's all a choice.  You went with the mask mandate, fire those who refuse the jab and that was flat out evil and wrong to do to your fellow human being.  You bought the fear lie.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Out of curiosity, can you acknowledge that out of the 1 million that died that roughly 950,000 died with on average 4 other comorbidities? Or as the CDC also calls them "causes of death".


Take a look at the common comorbidities.  Asthma, hypertension, diabetes, liver disease, heart disease, overweight, inactivity, pregnancy, former smoker, transplant patient, immunocompromised, etc.  These conditions are extremely common.

It is not at all surprising that most covid fatalities are among those with at least four of those conditions.   A sizable fraction of the over 60 population in the US fits that description.


----------



## cheer4kids

dad4 said:


> Take a look at the common comorbidities.  Asthma, hypertension, diabetes, liver disease, heart disease, overweight, inactivity, pregnancy, former smoker, transplant patient, immunocompromised, etc.  These conditions are extremely common.
> 
> It is not at all surprising that most covid fatalities are among those with at least four of those conditions.   A sizable fraction of the over 60 population in the US fits that description.


So, to a significant degree, those who make good/healthy life choices are penalized for those who make poor life/health choices. Like @crush, I chose a healthier lifestyle. I highly recommend starting a healthier lifestyle now to prepare for the Next Big Thing.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As you know I came down with it the first couple weeks of it here in the US with one very scary night which only an experimental choice by my doctor kept me out of the ER and god knows what we would have done with the kids.   Set aside the arguments over overcounts, comorbities, or attenuated virus....we have the vaccine now that renders it not the same thing as at the beginning of this.
> 
> The fact that you (who have gone out of the way to avoid it, and boast about your trust in the Science TM and vaccines) are lecturing me on this point (who came down with it at the very beginning) is just so full of irony I can't help but smile.  Unless secretly you don't really believe in vaccines and the science.


You’re mixing apples and oranges.

Are we talking about the best policy against Alpha, in a world without vaccines?  
Or are we talking about the best policy against omicron, in a world with vaccines?

Pick one.  These are not at all the same question.  You can’t take omicron transmission events, based on an R0 around 10, and apply them to vanilla covid, which had an R0 around 3.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> So you keep saying.
> 
> Let me know when your argument finally acknowledges the million people who died WITH your “bad cold”.


Fixed it for you….Thought you would want to use the same language as the CDC is using.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Take a look at the common comorbidities.  Asthma, hypertension, diabetes, liver disease, heart disease, overweight, inactivity, pregnancy, former smoker, transplant patient, immunocompromised, etc.  These conditions are extremely common.
> 
> It is not at all surprising that most covid fatalities are among those with at least four of those conditions.   A sizable fraction of the over 60 population in the US fits that description.


Bingo.

You know what percentage of those 55 and 65 and over work in the hospitality industry?  14% and <5%.  The average age in this industry is 31 and yet we effectively shutdown this industry.  That's a failed policy based on the gross miscalculation of risk.   Blanket policies never work.  They damage those not at risk and don't materially help those at risk.  But worst of all they divert focus on addressing the actual risks.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Fixed it for you….Thought you would want to use the same language as the CDC is using.


I don’t think anyone outside of right wing talk shows is actually claiming a net overcount.

Specific miscounts? Sure.  In both directions.  

But there is no basis for a claim that, overall, the deaths did not happen or were mostly caused by things other than covid.  That’s just denying something because you don’t want to thing about it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Bingo.
> 
> You know what percentage of those 55 and 65 and over work in the hospitality industry?  14% and <5%.  The average age in this industry is 31 and yet we effectively shutdown this industry.  That's a failed policy based on the gross miscalculation of risk.   Blanket policies never work.  They damage those not at risk and don't materially help those at risk.  But worst of all they divert focus on addressing the actual risks.


How do you propose to have a vast respiratory disease wave among the under 30 set, without creating a similar wave among the over 65 set?

We didn’t have any 100% effective barriers.  Every tool we had was only partly effective.  You could build a wall around the vulnerable, but it would be extremely leaky.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> I don’t think anyone outside of right wing talk shows is actually claiming a net overcount.
> 
> Specific miscounts? Sure.  In both directions.
> 
> But there is no basis for a claim that, overall, the deaths did not happen or were mostly caused by things other than covid.  That’s just denying something because you don’t want to thing about it.


Wait….so correcting the statement to accurately match the CDC’s position is now a Right Wing Talk Show commentary?  

Talk about looking for something where non exists…..


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Bingo.
> 
> You know what percentage of those 55 and 65 and over work in the hospitality industry?  14% and <5%.  The average age in this industry is 31 and yet we effectively shutdown this industry.  That's a failed policy based on the gross miscalculation of risk.   Blanket policies never work.  *They damage those not at risk and don't materially help those at risk.*  But worst of all they divert focus on addressing the actual risks.


Bingo for you watty   They also destroyed small business and sowed division among American Citizens.  The same crew just sent $40,000,000,000 to save Ukraine.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You’re mixing apples and oranges.
> 
> Are we talking about the best policy against Alpha, in a world without vaccines?
> Or are we talking about the best policy against omicron, in a world with vaccines?
> 
> Pick one.  These are not at all the same question.  You can’t take omicron transmission events, based on an R0 around 10, and apply them to vanilla covid, which had an R0 around 3.


Exactly.  It's the same for the IFR.  Glad you caught on.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> How do you propose to have a vast respiratory disease wave among the under 30 set, without creating a similar wave among the over 65 set?
> 
> We didn’t have any 100% effective barriers.  Every tool we had was only partly effective.  You could build a wall around the vulnerable, but it would be extremely leaky.


Um, like you said it was the over 60 that was dying even with the restrictions because they have the comorbidities.    So we should let the over 60's die and punish the 30 year olds?  That's interesting logic.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Um, *like you said* it was the over 60 that was dying even with the restrictions because they have the comorbidities.    So we should let the over 60's die and punish the 30 year olds?  That's interesting logic.


Like I said?  I said nothing of the sort.

My opinion is that roughly 1M people were saved by the restrictions, and more could have been saved if we had been less resistant to masks, vaccines, and moving life outside.

Agree, or disagree.  But don’t pretend I am saying the exact opposite of my position.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Exactly.  It's the same for the IFR.  Glad you caught on.


nice pivot.

The point remains that you are trying to use an omicron transmission in 2022 to make a point against the mask rules of 2020.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Wait….so correcting the statement to accurately match the CDC’s position is now a Right Wing Talk Show commentary?
> 
> Talk about looking for something where non exists…..


Where did CDC say that the number of deaths was vastly overcounted?  

Watfly was implying that counted deaths were 20 times as high as actual.  That’s nonsense.  

You can argue over whether the correct total is closer to 700K or 1.4 Million.  People smarter than us are doing that right now.  

But no one serious is entertaining the “it did not happen” argument.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *nice pivot.*
> 
> The point remains that you are trying to use an omicron transmission in 2022 to make a point against the mask rules of 2020.


Why is this some sort of hoops game dad?  You 100% lost the debate on mask and the jabs.  100% lost.  You should admit you were wrong and look to help others who said no to the jab.  I will be looking for helpers.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Watfly was implying that counted deaths were 20 times as high as actual.  That’s nonsense.


Where did I say or imply that?  You have a bad habit of misquoting people to try and make your argument sound more plausible.  I have no question that 1,000,000+ died.  Like I said a few times, Covid is a Darwin disease and that's exactly who we should have protected...the most vulnerable.  Those most likely to be susceptible to serious health consequences.   My point is about policies, not the actual number of deaths.  I never mentioned once overcounting in this string.



dad4 said:


> Like I said?  I said nothing of the sort.


That's exactly what you said.  The over 60's were the ones dying because it would be common for them to have the comorbidities (ie 95% of the deaths).  Which I happen to agree with you.

At least try to debate in good faith.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Where did I say or imply that?  You have a bad habit of misquoting people to try and make your argument sound more plausible.  I have no question that 1,000,000+ died.  Like I said a few times, Covid is a Darwin disease and that's exactly who we should have protected...the most vulnerable.  Those most likely to be susceptible to serious health consequences.   My point is about policies, not the actual number of deaths.  I never mentioned once overcounting in this string.
> 
> 
> That's exactly what you said.  The over 60's were the ones dying because it would be common for them to have the comorbidities (ie 95% of the deaths).  Which I happen to agree with you.
> 
> At least try to debate in good faith.


What was the point in your claim that 950K people had comorbidities, out of a total of 1M who died from covid?




watfly said:


> Out of curiosity, can you acknowledge that out of the 1 million that died that roughly 950,000 died with on average 4 other comorbidities? Or as the CDC also calls them "causes of death".


If you mean that covid was the cause of death of roughly 1M people, most of whom were old and had other health issues, then we agree.

If you mean that those 950k deaths don‘t really count, then we disgree.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> What was the point in your claim that 950K people had comorbidities, out of a total of 1M who died from covid?


Are you just yanking my chain now? Or pulling an Espola?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Are you just yanking my chain now? Or pulling an Espola?


No.  I am asking what you meant by your post.

Did you mean that covid primarily killed the old and sick?  

Or did you mean that, because of the comorbidities, those deaths don’t really count?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> No.  I am asking what you meant by your post.
> 
> Did you mean that covid primarily killed the old and sick?
> 
> Or did you mean that, because of the comorbidities, those deaths don’t really count?


Am I in the Twilight Zone?  Seriously, did you just ignore what I said in my posts?  I couldn't have been more clear that policies should have been developed to protect the vulnerable (and not blanket policies) based upon who was at risk which is/was/ abundantly clear based on the data that was clearly disclosed by the CDC.   When the CDC says that 95% of the population that died has these characteristics don't you think our focus should be developing policies that directly protect them, as opposed to treating everyone with the same generic policy and causing unnecessary consequences to those not at risk while killing those at risk.  That's insanity.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Where did I say or imply that?  You have a bad habit of misquoting people to try and make your argument sound more plausible.  I have no question that 1,000,000+ died.  Like I said a few times, Covid is a Darwin disease and that's exactly who we should have protected...the most vulnerable.  Those most likely to be susceptible to serious health consequences.   My point is about policies, not the actual number of deaths.  I never mentioned once overcounting in this string.
> 
> 
> That's exactly what you said.  The over 60's were the ones dying because it would be common for them to have the comorbidities (ie 95% of the deaths).  Which I happen to agree with you.
> 
> At least try to debate in good faith.


Watty, keep in mine that some Docs and Govs like Dad and Espola in NY used the elderly that were going to die soon because of serious underlying issues and old age.  It's called, "speed up death" process to cause fear among the healthy and those who were sleeping spiritually.  The place my mom was at before she passed away with  4+ major health issues as well at age 9,0 said they had lots of Covid deaths at Hospice Care.  Total BS!! When dad says 1,000,000 died, he is misleading us all.  He's not a dumb dumb and is acting like Espola and GG at the same time.  He knows that they counted gun shot victims, car accident trauma victims, stab victims and all victims that were about to die from other underlying reasons like Stroke and Cancer as Covid deaths.  Why?  Triple Pay Bonus Baby!!!! ((TPBB)).  I know some rich lib docs who took advantage of this scam and made off like the bandits that they are.  My pals wife is ranking it in with big Pharma and record breaking Blood Thinner sales in 2022 and she feels justified by her big haul the last two years.  Yay, I'm so happy for her.  He did loans and is now looking for work so he feels the heat because they have to pay 50/50 to keep their $2 million house.  News The fact dad still sits here and has debates with Grace & Hound makes me wonder what this Dad stands for.  He comes across as a nice daddy but then goes Grandpa Espola quickly.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Am I in the Twilight Zone?  Seriously, did you just ignore what I said in my posts?  I couldn't have been more clear that policies should have been developed to protect the vulnerable (and not blanket policies) based upon who was at risk which is/was/ abundantly clear based on the data that was clearly disclosed by the CDC.   When the CDC says that 95% of the population that died has these characteristics don't you think our focus should be developing policies that directly protect them, as opposed to treating everyone with the same generic policy and causing unnecessary consequences to those not at risk while killing those at risk.  That's insanity.


Yes, it's the Twilight Projection Zone.  It's a freaking trip to be here at this time on the planet.  I find it an honor to serve with you watty.  We got this brother


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> nice pivot.
> 
> The point remains that you are trying to use an omicron transmission in 2022 to make a point against the mask rules of 2020.


No.  I'm making a post-vaccine, 2022 IFR point to argue that the 2020 policies of the Chinese government are laughable (and if you concede along the way that masks don't make sense in 2022 given the omicron transmission, so much the better).


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Am I in the Twilight Zone?  Seriously, did you just ignore what I said in my posts?  I couldn't have been more clear that policies should have been developed to protect the vulnerable (and not blanket policies) based upon who was at risk which is/was/ abundantly clear based on the data that was clearly disclosed by the CDC.   When the CDC says that 95% of the population that died has these characteristics don't you think our focus should be developing policies that directly protect them, as opposed to treating everyone with the same generic policy and causing unnecessary consequences to those not at risk while killing those at risk.  That's insanity.


We did not have any technology or policy capable of doing what you ask.

We had the ability to reduce transmission by about 60-80%.  That's all.   We didn't have a 99% effective barrier available in the quantities of we needed.

Wrapping the vulnerable in an 80% effective cocoon doesn't work.  It only means that it takes five weeks instead of one week to get it.


----------



## Grace T.

Summary of a long COVID study.  Short interpretation, some markers but biggest correlation seems to be anxiety and depression, with some caveats such as the small nature of the study (which would miss rare conditions) and that serious COVID cases were excluded.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1528876982754476032


----------



## crush

*Philadelphia school district reinstates mask mandate for students and staff, citing increased COVID-19 cases*
*Schools within Philadelphia will require students and staff wear a mask*


----------



## crush

At least Joe is being honest for once.  This is all part of the transition.  They said you will own nothing and be happy.  



"Here’s the situation.  And when it comes to the gas prices, we’re going through an incredible transition that is taking place that, God willing, when it’s over, we’ll be stronger and the world will be stronger and less reliant on fossil fuels when this is over," Biden said, plus he also said this
"And what I’ve been able to do to keep it from getting even worse — and it’s bad.  The price of gas at the pump is something that I told you — you heard me say before — it would be a matter of great discussion at my kitchen table when I was a kid growing up.  It’s affecting a lot of families,"


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Where did CDC say that the number of deaths was vastly overcounted?


What the what?  Have I confused you?  

CDC uses the term WITH not OF….yet you conflate my correcting you on that to an argument about overcounting deaths.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> What the what?  Have I confused you?
> 
> CDC uses the term WITH not OF….yet you conflate my correcting you on that to an argument about overcounting deaths.


What point are you trying to make?  I thought you were trying to argue that covid did not actually kill approximately 1 million Americans.  

Are you actually a stickler for grammar, and seriously bothered by the distinction between “of“ and “with“?   

If so, I apologize.  Bad grammar should never rear it’s ugly head.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Out of curiosity, can you acknowledge that out of the 1 million that died that roughly 950,000 died with on average 4 other comorbidities? Or as the CDC also calls them "causes of death".


That’s as logical as the “well, he had a record and tested positive for an illegal substance so the cop was within his right’s to shoot him . . . even though he wasn’t being a threat.” defense for cold blooded murder.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> What point are you trying to make?  I thought you were trying to argue that covid did not actually kill approximately 1 million Americans.
> 
> Are you actually a stickler for grammar, and seriously bothered by the distinction between “of“ and “with“?
> 
> If so, I apologize.  Bad grammar should never rear it’s ugly head.


It’s not just grammar….they have different meanings.  I wonder why the CDC would use one not the other.  Maybe they realize that Covid contributed to their death (significantly or insignificantly) but they are unable to determine that it was the only cause.


----------



## crush

My pal lives up in Kirkland and has to make this drive every week.  He is as liberal as they come but even he thinks this is getting out of hand.  I asked him kindly what he thinks the reason is and he thinks it's because of drug abuse and mental illness.  My super rich conservative pal in South OC thinks it's because of choice and nothing else.   I drove through LA and people are living on the side of the freeway.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It’s not just grammar….they have different meanings.  I wonder why the CDC would use one not the other.  Maybe they realize that Covid contributed to their death (significantly or insignificantly) but they are unable to determine that it was the only cause.


Ok.  The words have different meanings.  So what?

Neither word covers the actual science.   You are quibbling over which dumbed down version is appropriate for public consumption.

The general pont is still that covid killed about 1M Americans.  This is backed up by statistical models of expected deaths in the US.   Fred Smith’s diabetes may have been incredibly important for Fred, but it is irrelevant for evaluating the overall impact of covid in the US.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s as logical as the “well, he had a record and tested positive for an illegal substance so the cop was within his right’s to shoot him . . . even though he wasn’t being a threat.” defense for cold blooded murder.


I see you posted this at 3:15 AM...
I'd like to believe that this was part & parcel to the nonsense you've posted above...
Given your history, you have once again posted and removed all doubt.
Atta boy Daffy


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Ok.  The words have different meanings.  So what?
> 
> Neither word covers the actual science.   You are quibbling over which dumbed down version is appropriate for public consumption.
> 
> The general pont is still that covid killed about 1M Americans.  This is backed up by statistical models of expected deaths in the US.   Fred Smith’s diabetes may have been incredibly important for Fred, but it is irrelevant for evaluating the overall impact of covid in the US.


And that’s where we disagree…you think statistical models are the end all be all but in reality they are only as good as the data entered. In your world, it’s either A or B, when in reality there is C, D, F and so on which are not taken into account because these other categories were stuffed into A or B and the language used to categorize was ambiguous (“with” not “of”) which you choose to ignore.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Ok.  The words have different meanings.  So what?


My wife and I used to *always* use words like, *"Always" "Never"* early on in our stupid arguments and little bumps.  I remember her saying, "You always leave the potty seat down."  "That is not true" I would say and I called her out for her lies.  I would say things like, "You never ___________________________ and it would be nice if you would ____________________ and not just me all the time."  She would call me out for saying "never" is not true babe because it was more like, "I usually want to have _______________________ more often then her but she is still down, just not like me all the time   25 years and now e get it....lol!!!  

Died "of" Covid and "with" Covid is not the same dad.  Again, let me and Hound remind you of the facts early on in this scam.  Dude is riding his Harley on the 10 Frwy in AZ is all fired up to ride.  However, a drunk driver came from the side view and knocked him off his bike.  He rolled on the pavement going 90 MPH.  After his body came to a stop, he had severe brain trauma.  Blood coming out of his nose and ears.  They rushed him to ER and tried for hours to keep him alive long enough to get a test for the Rona and the TPBB!!!  Dude comes back positive for Covid and he is now one in a million covid deaths.  This also happened to the 89 year old man sitting at home enjoying life and watching TV with his wife.  The wife looks over at hubby and see's that he fell out of his recliner, "Hal, are you ok?"  No response from Hal and he's rushed to ER and is brain dead long enough for that test and the TPBB!!!!  Hal takes the test and comes back positive.  Hal is now all alone and his wife and kids are not allowed to see Hal one last time and say goodbye, all because of the TPBB!!!  Wow, wow and more wow.  Not a cool way to make a buck Dad


----------



## watfly

Cowards









						SDUSD reimplements indoor mask mandate amid rising COVID cases -
					

SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – With increases in COVID-19 cases in schools and communities, the San Diego Unified School District has a plan to reinstate mask mandates starting Wednesday if specific conditions are met in individual schools. The district sent a letter, obtained by KUSI, to parents and...




					www.kusi.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Cowards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SDUSD reimplements indoor mask mandate amid rising COVID cases -
> 
> 
> SAN DIEGO (KUSI) – With increases in COVID-19 cases in schools and communities, the San Diego Unified School District has a plan to reinstate mask mandates starting Wednesday if specific conditions are met in individual schools. The district sent a letter, obtained by KUSI, to parents and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kusi.com


Those I know of getting the Covid currently have been getting painfully ill.  Cases up 40 %.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Those I know of getting the Covid currently have been getting painfully ill.  Cases up 40 %.


I've heard of quite a few cases very recently within our social group and local schools - all have had mild cases.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I've heard of quite a few cases very recently within our social group and local schools - all have had mild cases.


And...AGAIN...kids have no risk. 

And the population at large has no real risk...never has. Only certain rather specific groups have ever had a concern regarding the virus.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I've heard of quite a few cases very recently within our social group and local schools - all have had mild cases.


I haven't heard of any around my peeps (knocking on wood).  Is this still Omicron?  SD County looks like cases are spiking, but not hospitalizations


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I haven't heard of any around my peeps (knocking on wood).  Is this still Omicron?  SD County looks like cases are spiking, but not hospitalizations


We (you) have learned nothing. If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny (in a laughing at a dog chasing it’s tail kind of way). Baby steps don’t even work for the willfully ignorant.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Watty, this made me laugh.  You have to watch this and get a good laugh.  It's funny but not really funny, if you know what I mean.  All the Elites that still support a New World Order are meeting up in Davos as I write tis.  This is Klause just just now bro 









						HAD TO DO IT!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Watty, this made me laugh.  You have to watch this and get a good laugh.  It's funny but not really funny, if you know what I mean.  All the Elites that still support a New World Order are meeting up in Davos as I write tis.  This is Klause just just now bro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAD TO DO IT!!!
> 
> 
> Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com


If you want to see/hear something truly funny watch the new Ricky Gervais standup on Netflix.  Just listened to it on my hike.   I'm fairly confident he offended everyone.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> If you want to see/hear something truly funny watch the new Ricky Gervais standup on Netflix.  Just listened to it on my hike.   I'm fairly confident he offended everyone.


He started all this before the Rona was unleashed.  Remember that?  I like smack talk and just laying it all out in a funny way.  The news is crazy these days and not getting better.  I'll watch tonight with my wife


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I haven't heard of any around my peeps (knocking on wood).  Is this still Omicron?  SD County looks like cases are spiking, but not hospitalizations


I’m guessing there’s a lot more out there than reported given how the more recent variants are even more transmissible with many having only mild symptoms. There’s little incentive to test if you are still “working” at home and the symptoms are mild. It also appears that for many, testing doesn’t show a positive until at least a couple days after the onset of symptoms.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I’m guessing there’s a lot more out there than reported given how the more recent variants are even more transmissible with many having only mild symptoms. There’s little incentive to test if you are still “working” at home and the symptoms are mild. It also appears that for many, testing doesn’t show a positive until at least a couple days after the onset of symptoms.


Here we go again bro.  This is summer is going to be gnarly.   I'm watching Super Nature right now.  Ricky is funny and does not hold back.  Watty helped me laugh some today.  He says some naughty words sometimes and does not hold back on people like my wife, who have been spot on regarding spiritual things.  Rick 100% does not believe in God and that's ok and his choice and I just like to go back and forth with people like him.  Comedy is fun   I think he's 100% wrong about the Creator....lol.  How are things up North?


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> We (you) have learned nothing. If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny (in a laughing at a dog chasing it’s tail kind of way). Baby steps don’t even work for the willfully ignorant.


how do you suggest we handle this rise in cases ?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> how do you suggest we handle this rise in cases ?


The one thing I suggest is using the tissues with lotion. I did a lot of nose-blowing for a couple of days. Don't be like those dogs who chase their tails and use the dry tissues. They never learn.


----------



## crush

So Sad
					

Moderna's CEO is shaking & crying as his profits have decreased now that there is a new fad in town.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️Patreon: https://www.patreon.c…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> The one thing I suggest is using the tissues with lotion. I did a lot of nose-blowing for a couple of days. Don't be like those dogs who chase their tails and use the dry tissues. They never learn.


Don’t throw out the box of tissues when you’re recovered.  There are still about 2200 people dying from covid each week.  You might need some tissues for one of the funerals.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Don’t throw out the box of tissues when you’re recovered.  There are still about 2200 people dying from covid each week.  You might need some tissues for one of the funerals.


And yet the solution isn't shutting biz, remote learning or masking.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Don’t throw out the box of tissues when you’re recovered.  There are still about 2200 people dying from covid each week.  You might need some tissues for one of the funerals.


Oh, right - especially since no one ever died or nothing bad happened to anyone before COVID. Looks to me like 8000 people die in the US each day. So, 2200 a week from 56,000. Looks like about a 4% increase in tissue use - assuming all those people who are dying with COVID would not have died otherwise.

I found this interesting. There was about a 19% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. I really wonder what many people would guess for the increase in the rate of death due to COVID if they had to give an answer.









						Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — at least 20% more deaths than in 2019
					

Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — 20% more deaths than in 2019 — illustrating the toll coronavirus has taken on the US. While death certificates from 2020 are still being processed, over 572,000 more people died in 2020 than in 2019.




					usafacts.org


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, right - especially since no one ever died or nothing bad happened to anyone before COVID. Looks to me like 8000 people die in the US each day. So, 2200 a week from 56,000. Looks like about a 4% increase in tissue use - assuming all those people who are dying with COVID would not have died otherwise.
> 
> I found this interesting. There was about a 19% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. I really wonder what many people would guess for the increase in the rate of death due to COVID if they had to give an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — at least 20% more deaths than in 2019
> 
> 
> Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — 20% more deaths than in 2019 — illustrating the toll coronavirus has taken on the US. While death certificates from 2020 are still being processed, over 572,000 more people died in 2020 than in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usafacts.org


You try very hard to act like something is nothing.


----------



## crush

California has its first suspected monkeypox case
					

Patient in Sacramento County had recently traveled abroad.




					www.ocregister.com


----------



## crush

It looks like the Pox is back folks.  I had a buddy that got the Pox from his pet chicken back in the 70s.  Here is a picture of what the Pox from Monkey looks like in case any of your kids come home from school with big boils on their hands.  If you want your little one to be the safest during these horrible times in our country, i would be home schooling by the way if you can or hook up with a local Neighborhood Home School Program ((NHSP)) in your community.  Times are not safe and seeing how crazy people are, I would stay home with my child(s).  Sending your kids to school these days is very dangerous.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh, right - especially since no one ever died or nothing bad happened to anyone before COVID. Looks to me like 8000 people die in the US each day. So, 2200 a week from 56,000. Looks like about a 4% increase in tissue use - assuming all those people who are dying with COVID would not have died otherwise.
> 
> I found this interesting. There was about a 19% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. I really wonder what many people would guess for the increase in the rate of death due to COVID if they had to give an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — at least 20% more deaths than in 2019
> 
> 
> Preliminary US death statistics show over 3.4 million total deaths in 2020 — 20% more deaths than in 2019 — illustrating the toll coronavirus has taken on the US. While death certificates from 2020 are still being processed, over 572,000 more people died in 2020 than in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usafacts.org


19% increase in deaths in 2020, 4% increase in deaths long term.  That’s a realistic description.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> You try very hard to act like something is nothing.


It's interesting to see how people react to facts. It gives insight into their thinking - or lack thereof. I simply presented facts that give context to the number @dad4 presented, and you brought up the idea that it minimized what is happening. What, exactly, are you arguing? Was it misinformation? No. Was it misleading? No. In fact, it gave important context to @dad4's number. I understand these are emotional times, and rational thought can be difficult, but, try harder.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's interesting to see how people react to facts. It gives insight into their thinking - or lack thereof. I simply presented facts that give context to the number @dad4 presented, and you brought up the idea that it minimized what is happening. What, exactly, are you arguing? Was it misinformation? No. Was it misleading? No. In fact, it gave important context to @dad4's number. I understand these are emotional times, and rational thought can be difficult, but, try harder.


Finding a rational thought in huskers ramblings feels like a quest to find the 7 cities of gold....a pointless exercise.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> 19% increase in deaths in 2020, 4% increase in deaths long term.  That’s a realistic description.


I will nit-pick about the use of "long term." As you well know, long term, everyone dies. I am sure you meant death earlier than without COVID, but it does bring up a question. Do you expect the increased death rate to continue into the coming years? I would think at some point long term, the COVID effect would become insignificant, and the death rate would actually decrease - not for any good reason, simply because those projected to die in the time period had already died.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I will nit-pick about the use of "long term." As you well know, long term, everyone dies. I am sure you meant death earlier than without COVID, but it does bring up a question. Do you expect the increased death rate to continue into the coming years? I would think at some point long term, the COVID effect would become insignificant, and the death rate would actually decrease - not for any good reason, simply because those projected to die in the time period had already died.


Lets not forget that a rather LARGE percentage of deaths during covid happened in nursing homes. The place you send people to die. For some time that percentage constituted 40% plus of all deaths. It has remained a significantly high number.


----------



## Desert Hound




----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> It's interesting to see how people react to facts. It gives insight into their thinking - or lack thereof. I simply presented facts that give context to the number @dad4 presented, and you brought up the idea that it minimized what is happening. What, exactly, are you arguing? Was it misinformation? No. Was it misleading? No. In fact, it gave important context to @dad4's number. I understand these are emotional times, and rational thought can be difficult, but, try harder.


Your misunderstanding is acceptable in this case. I simply meant, as a whole, overall, you seem to go to great lengths in an attempt to minimize the reality that there is a there there. Unless one has personally been touched by Covid it’s still just an abstract, numbers to be jumbled this way and that to the liking of the user. Aka the risk is not 0, the outcomes are not all manageable and the effects are not all slight . . . but continue on with your clinical dissection of data and numbers. Never mind something that has been a determining factor in so many deaths. I mean heck dude had a underlying issues he was bound to die someday.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I will nit-pick about the use of "long term." As you well know, long term, everyone dies. I am sure you meant death earlier than without COVID, but it does bring up a question. Do you expect the increased death rate to continue into the coming years? I would think at some point long term, the COVID effect would become insignificant, and the death rate would actually decrease - not for any good reason, simply because those projected to die in the time period had already died.


The leader this group answers to wants less people on the earth and that is 100% true.  The deaths are going up and up so so so they can depopulate the earth.  Do you see da plan yet?  If you lived a good life, it's your time to give way to the young elitist kids.  They don;t want bastard kids and or adoptions going on, they want to use those kids for spare parts or for ritual sacrifice.  No more births=less people to deal with.  Look how they attack and kill kids and use kids as pawns.  These are sic monsters were dealing with K & S, regardless if you never agree with me on anything.....


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I will nit-pick about the use of "long term." As you well know, long term, everyone dies. I am sure you meant death earlier than without COVID, but it does bring up a question. Do you expect the increased death rate to continue into the coming years? I would think at some point long term, the COVID effect would become insignificant, and the death rate would actually decrease - not for any good reason, simply because those projected to die in the time period had already died.


There will be fewer deaths because some people already died early, and more deaths because everyone is getting older, so some people will get old enough to become vulnerable to covid.  

That option is best described as “steady state with a slightly lower life expectancy“.    On average, deaths will occur slightly earlier due to the existence of one more possible cause of death. 

Long term, I expect us to occasionally get surprised by a new variant because we aren’t updating the vaccines.  Averages out to slightly worse than we are seeing now.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 13659


Obviously, that's because the vaccine provides very little protection against infection.  That's well established by the data and what we're all seeing with our own eyes.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is in complete denial of the evidence, either out of fear or the desire to still control behavior through mandates.

I think what were seeing in terms of deaths from/with Covid could probably be categorized into 3 groups.  1) those that were killed straight up with Covid which is a minimum of 5% of the deaths, 2) those that Covid contributed to and/or accelerated their death  3) those who died as Covid positive where Covid had nothing to do with their death.  Categories 2) and 3) are something less than 95% of all deaths.  But as between the breakdown of these two categories we just don't have the data to know at this point.

What's the latest on long haulers? 

Setting aside long haulers, we still don't know the long term impact of having been infected, just like we don't know the long term impact of the vaccines.  I will say "so far, so good" for both, but we just can't say with any certainty...only time will tell.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> but we just can't say with any certainty...only time will tell.


The one thing we do know with certainty is that the policies failed. 

-rising inflation
-rising interest rates
- savings wiped out for many
- school closures screwed kids
and the news just keeps getting worse. 

And none of policies helped stop the spread. They did however screw everything else up.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Obviously, that's because the vaccine provides very little protection against infection.  That's well established by the data and what we're all seeing with our own eyes.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is in complete denial of the evidence, either out of fear or the desire to still control behavior through mandates.
> 
> I think what were seeing in terms of deaths from/with Covid could probably be categorized into 3 groups.  1) those that were killed straight up with Covid which is a minimum of 5% of the deaths, 2) those that Covid contributed to and/or accelerated their death  3) those who died as Covid positive where Covid had nothing to do with their death.  Categories 2) and 3) are something less than 95% of all deaths.  But as between the breakdown of these two categories we just don't have the data to know at this point.
> 
> What's the latest on long haulers?
> 
> Setting aside long haulers, we still don't know the long term impact of having been infected, just like we don't know the long term impact of the vaccines.  I will say "so far, so good" for both, but we just can't say with any certainty...only time will tell.


On the long haulers there were competing studies that were released.  Out of the UK, they are finding the long haulers have a strong correlation to anxiety/depression suggesting that it may be mostly psychological stress from the illness.  The caveat was that study was smallish and therefore couldn't capture rare events (such as what also has been suggested happens with the COVID vaccine) and didn't examine serious life threatening cases for which there might be secondary issues.   Out of the CDC, a study which suggested 20% of people have long hauler.  The critique was that the cutoff was 1 month, only used serious cases that were tested in the denominator and didn't account for long viral syndrome which takes place in other diseases such as the flu/cold (I myself suffered from long RSV last summer for about 3 months).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> On the long haulers there were competing studies that were released.  Out of the UK, they are finding the long haulers have a strong correlation to anxiety/depression suggesting that it may be mostly psychological stress from the illness.  The caveat was that study was smallish and therefore couldn't capture rare events (such as what also has been suggested happens with the COVID vaccine) and didn't examine serious life threatening cases for which there might be secondary issues.   Out of the CDC, a study which suggested 20% of people have long hauler.  The critique was that the cutoff was 1 month, only used serious cases that were tested in the denominator and didn't account for long viral syndrome which takes place in other diseases such as the flu/cold (I myself suffered from long RSV last summer for about 3 months).


I have a hard time believing that 20% of those infected are long haulers, I guess it really comes down to how it is defined.  To me a long hauler is someone that continues to have Covid symptoms months after the infection.  It can certainly take those with co-conditions a lot longer to recover from Covid by exacerbating those conditions but I don't see that as having "long haul" Covid.  Not that that wouldn't be equally unpleasant.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The one thing we do know with certainty is that the policies failed.
> 
> -rising inflation
> -rising interest rates
> - savings wiped out for many
> - school closures screwed kids
> and the news just keeps getting worse.
> 
> And none of policies helped stop the spread. They did however screw everything else up.


100%.  The alleged cure was far worse than the disease.  The worst part was these results were predictable to a large extent.  Unfortunately, fear, emotion, power and politics overcame common sense.   Good news is that, except for the die hard partisans, the public is fighting back, particularly parents.  Maybe it was the wake up call that some needed. (sorry for using a derivative of "woke")

(Cue the partisans mischaracterizing that I don't care, I'm ignoring or minimizing that $1 million died).


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your misunderstanding is acceptable in this case. I simply meant, as a whole, overall, you seem to go to great lengths in an attempt to minimize the reality that there is a there there. Unless one has personally been touched by Covid it’s still just an abstract, numbers to be jumbled this way and that to the liking of the user. Aka the risk is not 0, the outcomes are not all manageable and the effects are not all slight . . . but continue on with your clinical dissection of data and numbers. Never mind something that has been a determining factor in so many deaths. I mean heck dude had a underlying issues he was bound to die someday.


My "misunderstanding" Hahaha! I did nothing of the sort. You're attempting to control the narrative and you don't like the facts. What a useless tool.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Obviously, that's because the vaccine provides very little protection against infection.  That's well established by the data and what we're all seeing with our own eyes.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is in complete denial of the evidence, either out of fear or the desire to still control behavior through mandates.
> 
> I think what were seeing in terms of deaths from/with Covid could probably be categorized into 3 groups.  1) those that were killed straight up with Covid which is a minimum of 5% of the deaths, 2) those that Covid contributed to and/or accelerated their death  3) those who died as Covid positive where Covid had nothing to do with their death.  Categories 2) and 3) are something less than 95% of all deaths.  But as between the breakdown of these two categories we just don't have the data to know at this point.
> 
> What's the latest on long haulers?
> 
> Setting aside long haulers, we still don't know the long term impact of having been infected, just like we don't know the long term impact of the vaccines.  I will say "so far, so good" for both, but we just can't say with any certainty...only time will tell.


Watty, please tell me how many people died from the Flu last two years?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> 100%.  The alleged cure was far worse than the disease.  The worst part was these results were predictable to a large extent.  Unfortunately, fear, emotion, power and politics overcame common sense.   Good news is that, except for the die hard partisans, the public is fighting back, particularly parents.  Maybe it was the wake up call that some needed. (sorry for using a derivative of "woke")
> 
> (Cue the partisans mischaracterizing that I don't care, I'm ignoring or minimizing that $1 million died).


Our half-assed effort to mask, distance, and vaccinate saved about 1M lives, mostly among the old and sick.

It also made the recession a lot worse, and put millions out of work.

You seem to want to talk about only one side of the equation.  Counterfactuals are ok, as long as we are talking about the possible benefits of skipping lockdowns.  But similar counterfactuals about the possible costs of skipping lockdowns are somehow invalid.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Our half-assed effort to mask, distance, and vaccinate saved about 1M lives, mostly among the old and sick.
> 
> It also made the recession a lot worse, and put millions out of work.
> 
> You seem to want to talk about only one side of the equation.  Counterfactuals are ok, as long as we are talking about the possible benefits of skipping lockdowns.  But similar counterfactuals about the possible costs of skipping lockdowns are somehow invalid.


*Whoopi Goldberg: If women can’t have abortions we’re ‘going to come for’ guns, ‘get ready to give them up’*


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Our half-assed effort to mask, distance, and vaccinate saved about 1M lives, mostly among the old and sick.
> 
> It also made the recession a lot worse, and put millions out of work.
> 
> You seem to want to talk about only one side of the equation.  Counterfactuals are ok, as long as we are talking about the possible benefits of skipping lockdowns.  But similar counterfactuals about the possible costs of skipping lockdowns are somehow invalid.


o.k. I'll bite.  How'd you come up with the 1M?  And it's not just 1M.  It's 1M from "half-assed" mask/distancing (yeah I know you mention vaccines, but that's a bit of a cheat...you can't equate lockdowns, which have been shown to not be very effective in various post lockdown studies, or even masks ["masks are better than vaccines" notwithstanding] to something which has been shown to really reduce the IFR, which is vaccination).


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Our half-assed effort to mask, distance, and vaccinate saved about 1M lives, mostly among the old and sick.
> 
> It also made the recession a lot worse, and put millions out of work.
> 
> You seem to want to talk about only one side of the equation.  Counterfactuals are ok, as long as we are talking about the possible benefits of skipping lockdowns.  But similar counterfactuals about the possible costs of skipping lockdowns are somehow invalid.


Pure speculation. 

Curious to know what people's experience within their group as to people that were infected?  I'd estimate that within my personal community 80-90% were infected at some point (I suspect that other's experience is different).  The vast majority of which were never reported and mostly Omicron.  No one passed, the few I'm aware of were at least 4 degrees of separation.  That is in part why I'm skeptical of 1 mm more deaths.  Maybe, but I just don't see any compelling evidence to support that number.  

With the exception of full quarantine with no human contact, its clear that virus didn't give a shit about what you did (in terms of infection).  Luck played a large role in whether you were infected though.  It's clear to me that the vaccine and prior infection was helpful in preventing severe symptoms.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Pure speculation.
> 
> Curious to know what people's experience within their group as to people that were infected?  I'd estimate that within my personal community 80-90% were infected at some point (I suspect that other's experience is different).  The vast majority of which were never reported and mostly Omicron.  No one passed, the few I'm aware of were at least 4 degrees of separation.  That is in part why I'm skeptical of 1 mm more deaths.  Maybe, but I just don't see any compelling evidence to support that number.
> 
> With the exception of full quarantine with no human contact, its clear that virus didn't give a shit about what you did (in terms of infection).  Luck played a large role in whether you were infected though.  It's clear to me that the vaccine and prior infection was helpful in preventing severe symptoms.


And a healthy diet ,


----------



## crush

Five things you need to know about monkeypox
					

The UK has seen unusual cases of monkeypox, which is normally spread by infected wild animals in Africa. So what is this disease, how does it spread and can it be treated?




					www.gavi.org


----------



## crush

Im just leaving Beverly Hills.  Its worse than two months ago.  Sad to see so many now living on the streets.  I saw one guy yelling at a tree.  The small businesses I used to call on in the late 90s are boarded up, Iron Gates or closed down.  Grafitti everywhere, trash and humans are pooping on the sidwalk.  It smells .  Its so sad.  My wife and I have a dear dear friend who is now 100% looking to move.  She is Persian and went to U of Cal. She is amazing champion for all girls.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Pure speculation.
> 
> Curious to know what people's experience within their group as to people that were infected?  I'd estimate that within my personal community 80-90% were infected at some point (I suspect that other's experience is different).  The vast majority of which were never reported and mostly Omicron.  No one passed, the few I'm aware of were at least 4 degrees of separation.  That is in part why I'm skeptical of 1 mm more deaths.  Maybe, but I just don't see any compelling evidence to support that number.
> 
> With the exception of full quarantine with no human contact, its clear that virus didn't give a shit about what you did (in terms of infection).  Luck played a large role in whether you were infected though.  It's clear to me that the vaccine and prior infection was helpful in preventing severe symptoms.


You really think they're just making it up?

You can look at overall deaths.  Up by about 950K in the first two years.

Either coroners across the country have been filing hundreds of thousands of false death certificates, or it was real.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You really think they're just making it up?
> 
> You can look at overall deaths.  Up by about 950K in the first two years.
> 
> Either coroners across the country have been filing hundreds of thousands of false death certificates, or it was real.


Bro, why do you completely mischaracterize what I say?  Is it intentional, reading comprehension or just a huge blindspot to other plausible arguments?  Sorry to bust your chops but its really annoying coming from someone that is generally more reasonable.

I can't really be any more clear, I'm not disputing the 1 mm deaths, I'm disputing your claim of 1 mm more deaths without restrictive policies.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> o.k. I'll bite.  How'd you come up with the 1M?  And it's not just 1M.  It's 1M from "half-assed" mask/distancing (yeah I know you mention vaccines, but that's a bit of a cheat...you can't equate lockdowns, which have been shown to not be very effective in various post lockdown studies, or even masks ["masks are better than vaccines" notwithstanding] to something which has been shown to really reduce the IFR, which is vaccination).


Our vaccination effort has been half-assed.  We got about 2/3 of the adult population.  Most places bothered actually requiring vaccinations for mass gatherings.  Never bothered developing a decent system to verify vaccination status.   Never bothered updating the vaccine to adapt to new variants.  

Masking was also half-assed.   Many people were willing to mask up-  if, and only if, someone was right there, telling them to put it on. 

Same for moving life outside.  LA seemed willing to move dinner parties outside, but only if the indoor space was closed by county order.

So, yeah.  Half-assed.  People would wear a mask in the grocery store while buying beer for their indoor poker night.  Then they complain that the mandate didn’t work.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> How'd you come up with the 1M? And it's not just 1M. It's 1M


He frequently tosses that 1 million number around.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Bro, why do you completely mischaracterize what I say?  Is it intentional, reading comprehension or just a huge blindspot to other plausible arguments?  Sorry to bust your chops but its really annoying coming from someone that is generally more reasonable.
> 
> I can't really be any more clear, I'm not disputing the 1 mm deaths, I'm disputing your claim of 1 mm more deaths without restrictive policies.


Basically, without the masks, distancing, and shutdowns, the early waves would have been larger, and the late waves would have been smaller.  With no behavior changes, the first wave would have hit a 70% infection rate.

Those early waves had a much higher IFR.  Therefore, shifting cases from 2021 and 2022 into 2020 would have resulted in far more deaths.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Basically, without the masks, distancing, and shutdowns, the early waves would have been larger, and the late waves would have been smaller.  With no behavior changes, the first wave would have hit a 70% infection rate.
> 
> Those early waves had a much higher IFR.  Therefore, shifting cases from 2021 and 2022 into 2020 would have resulted in far more deaths.


You are pulling out numbers out of your ass again.  Sweden did not hit a 70% infection rate until the winter of 2021, so it's simply not true the first wave would have hit a 70% infection rate.  Sweden's 2021 winter death spike was smaller than comparable countries in Europe (so it is true they pulled some deaths forward), but at the same time it's winter 2021 case spike was comparable to the rest of Europe.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Our vaccination effort has been half-assed.  We got about 2/3 of the adult population.  Most places bothered actually requiring vaccinations for mass gatherings.  Never bothered developing a decent system to verify vaccination status.   Never bothered updating the vaccine to adapt to new variants.
> 
> Masking was also half-assed.   Many people were willing to mask up-  if, and only if, someone was right there, telling them to put it on.
> 
> Same for moving life outside.  LA seemed willing to move dinner parties outside, but only if the indoor space was closed by county order.
> 
> So, yeah.  Half-assed.  People would wear a mask in the grocery store while buying beer for their indoor poker night.  Then they complain that the mandate didn’t work.


You and your preaching is causing so much pain.  90% wearing mask in LA, no joke.  Everyone I know got the jab and always obey.  I did not get the jab but I wore a mask.  Also, stop mischaracterizing watty.  Watty is so fair and in the middle and admits to that.  He looks at both sides before crossing.  You don;t stop at all and now have caused severe damage.  I want him on my side all the time but I know I can;t always get what I like.  You seem very unreasonable, just like some of my teachers from the past.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Basically, without the masks, distancing, and shutdowns, the early waves would have been larger, and the late waves would have been smaller.  With no behavior changes, the first wave would have hit a 70% infection rate.
> 
> Those early waves had a much higher IFR.  Therefore, shifting cases from 2021 and 2022 into 2020 would have resulted in far more deaths.




My apologies to Santa Claus and Unicorns for the comparison.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You are pulling out numbers out of your ass again.  Sweden did not hit a 70% infection rate until the winter of 2021, so it's simply not true the first wave would have hit a 70% infection rate.  Sweden's 2021 winter death spike was smaller than comparable countries in Europe (so it is true they pulled some deaths forward), but at the same time it's winter 2021 case spike was comparable to the rest of Europe.


Nowhere hit 70%, but that is because everywhere experienced a change to behavior.

If you want to imagine a world where the schools are all open, the bars are hopping and the tip jar is full, that's fine.

You are also imagining a world where the first wave hits 70%.  This is what happens when R0=3 and people keep behavior constant.

In simple terms, if the tip jar is full, then there are enough people at the bar to spread covid.  Conversely, if the bar has lots of empty space, then so does your tip jar.  You don't get one without the other.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nowhere hit 70%, but that is because everywhere experienced a change to behavior.


So Sweden didn't hit 70% because people voluntarily changed their behaviors?  Fascinating concept.  Why didn't any of us think of that?  Next time...maybe.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So Sweden didn't hit 70% because people voluntarily changed their behaviors?  Fascinating concept.  Why didn't any of us think of that?  Next time...maybe.


And with your remark you tore apart what’s left of him.  QED as they like to say.  You officially win the thread. Hat tip.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So Sweden didn't hit 70% because people voluntarily changed their behaviors?  Fascinating concept.  Why didn't any of us think of that?  Next time...maybe.


The voluntary behavior change only works if you actually change your behavior.

If you declare a voluntary program because you hate masks and refuse to give up Zumba, you will still get 70%.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> And with your remark you tore apart what’s left of him.  QED as they like to say.  You officially win the thread. Hat tip.


Well thanks, but it was just a blind squirrel moment.  I honestly can't keep up, my mind is too simple.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Well thanks, but it was just a blind squirrel moment.  I honestly can't keep up, my mind is too simple.


To be fair, all you did was tell Grace that her imaginary acorn was real.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> To be fair, all you did was tell Grace that her imaginary acorn was real.


I'll take what I can get, but it seems she has a pretty good track record.


----------



## crush

Hey guys, I just got on Truth Social.  You can all sign up from PC.  I have Android.  This is going to get fun   PM me if you want to know my handle.....lol.  We can speak Truth at TruthSocial.com.  Let freedom rain on your head and let freedom reign in your soul


----------



## crush

From K$H at Truth, "Im in court today at Sussman trial. Monster evidence submitted by prosecution. Perkins Coei got paid $3 million+ in 2016/2017 by tech exec joffe’s company. And joffe was on the books as an fbi source the entire time. What is chris wray doing allowing this criminal clown show to operate under his fbi leadership??? More to follow, go to -  fightwithkash.com/durham-watch


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I'll take what I can get, but it seems she has a pretty good track record.


In the imaginary world maybe. She is the queen of spin articles.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the imaginary world maybe. She is the queen of spin articles.


You should know as the resident expert on spin!


----------



## crush

Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) tested positive for COVID-19 on Wednesday, becoming the latest lawmaker to come down with the virus.

Cheney said in a statement that she is fully vaccinated and boosted and is experiencing mild symptoms.

*“While I am fully vaccinated and boosted*, I received a positive test result for COVID-19 early Wednesday morning. I am currently experiencing mild symptoms and will follow the CDC’s guidance as I continue to work on behalf of the people of Wyoming,” Cheney said in a statement.


----------



## crush

Word for the day:  Hoax


----------



## crush

*"Take back the wheel." * I love this dad. Listen to his passion. Some clowns stole the soccer wheel and I told all of you we need to clean this sport up and give it to the kids, for free if possible   His love for his 8 year old dd is freaking amazing.  He basically is describing my little bundle of joy. Listen to him and get ready for Papa Bear, Mama bear and Baby Bear to take back the wheel of life and the wheel of fortune.  Stop using kids as pawns you losers!!!!  Keep my kid away from these crazy ass lunatics'.  Sending your kid to any school is dangerous these days.  I have never met so many sell outs and soft toast fathers in my life.  Sell outs for almighty dollar and status.  No one is talking jab or mask these days.  They also sold others out because they wouldn;t get the jab so they supported or stood by and did nothing as their co-workers get fired, losing their income, their house and everything and now have nothing and have to find a new path all because they said no to jab.  WTF folks!!!  Oh by the way, another dear friend past away in his sleep the other night.  RIP brother.......


----------



## crush

WEF in Davos is planning all your lives right now.  If your lucky to survive all this, you will own nothing and be super stoked.  Gas will be replaced.  My old house in Temecula dropped $50,000 in value in a month   A quote from a top Science Magician just now in Davos, "Individual carbon foot print tracker is here and is coming."  QR code of everything you think and dream about, plus all your medical information.  They also can track if you believe in God too much.  You must take all their jabs and all boosters for any Plandemic they deem as serious.  "All" Pox is going to spring up everywhere. Monkey, Bat, Rooster, Dog, Cat and maybe even Snake Pox.  The new way to track each of us will make the credit score easy to pass.  Now it will be  Credit score + Carbon Foot Print + Social Credit Score = Authoritative Control of each individual and no more freedom of Speech or the right to bear arms.  Obama said this back when he was President.  He said all of us would have to give up our individual rights for the common good of the global elites and their children.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

@watfly only.  I thought of you brother.  I know we both have a sense of the going on's and the sense that Unicorns might just be real after all.  This nonsense were dealing with could make a normal man Coo Coo.  I know I keep babbling and all but I can;t go back to the way things were.  Life makes sense to me now and since no one believed me the last 4 years, it's been a very lonely time for me.  I quit Metaverse back when it was FB back in 2017, right after the election.  I saw so many old pals from schhol days, college days and church days turn on each because t beat HRC.  We all saw it.  Then these losers went after t and no one did anything because so many hate the man.  Just because you hate someone, it does not give them the right to cheat, steal, spy and lie on your competition.  I know you own a business bro and if your competition did what HRC did to t, you would be pissed off and you would want justice and your diamonds back, if you owned a Diamond Store like Kay.  This is all nonsense and like said to you before in a PM, Symbolism will be their down fall.  I study body language and numbers for a living.  The number 19 has meaning to these monsters= 19=Chaos/ Chaos=Fear.  Get it ready for chaos and much worse things to happen and more fear.  Money Pox is coming this summer.  BTW, ;like I said before, It's been 100% a pleasure to serve with you on SMS over the years.  You know I am not full of BS either.  You might not agree with anything I say like K and S, but you do agree I am honest and authentic.  Honesty does not= I am right.  I am just honest with what I think, see and hear with my brain, eyes and my ears.  I have a very strong intellect that is not from this place, trust me.  I went through all the brainwashing in school and in churches to better interstand what people are trying to sell the masses.  This place is all fear base money machine  I have strong intuition and even a little Telepathy with a few humans. I see you as true and authentic human and a individual being sitting on the fence......lol. I'm here to knock you off the fence and get you with the winning side. I mean no harm to you. Let's see what today brings. Do not worry about Tomorrow because Tomorrow has enough to worry about. Be honest and true to Today and by golly Today will bless you 100%. Cheat, lie, spy and steal will only kill one's soul


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Actor Kevin Spacey charged in UK with four counts of sexual assault
					

The 62-year-old Spacey is a two-time Academy Award winner.




					justthenews.com
				




Kevin is being charge in the UK with some serious sexual assaults against men, yikes!!!  I heard about one teen that went after him and he ended up dead


----------



## crush

@watfly, I found this Steve guy on Truth bro.  









						TERRORISMO REVIVIDO Y CONTRAPARTE
					

TERRORISMO REVIVIDO Y CONTRAPARTE TERRORISMO REVIVIDO Y CONTRAPARTE TERRORISMO REVIVIDO Y CONTRAPARTE




					rumble.com


----------



## Grace T.

interesting little tid bit.  I just got back from my gp who is convinced the new variants of omicron are evading the rapid tests.  He came down with a cold but repeatedly rapid tested neg.   when he took the hospital mandated pcr test to return he tested positive.  It’s not the first time he’s seen it.  His theory is the admin may be turning a blind eye to it because of the money involves.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> interesting little tid bit.  I just got back from my gp who is convinced the new variants of omicron are evading the rapid tests.  He came down with a cold but repeatedly rapid tested neg.   when he took the hospital mandated pcr test to return he tested positive.  It’s not the first time he’s seen it.  His theory is the admin may be turning a blind eye to it because of the money involves.


I know a few people that are currently sick with Covid-like symptoms that have repeatedly tested negative with home tests, my daughter included.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I know a few people that are currently sick with Covid-like symptoms that have repeatedly tested negative with home tests, my daughter included.


Watty, please answer just this one Q I have.  How many people died from the flu the last two sum years?  If you won;t or can;t answer, does anyone here willing to answer my Q with the TRUTH?  Please, any smart person can look this up.  No one know has a clue clue where the flu flu went?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> View attachment 13669
> 
> @watfly only.  I thought of you brother.  I know we both have a sense of the going on's and the sense that Unicorns might just be real after all.  This nonsense were dealing with could make a normal man Coo Coo.  I know I keep babbling and all but I can;t go back to the way things were.  Life makes sense to me now and since no one believed me the last 4 years, it's been a very lonely time for me.  I quit Metaverse back when it was FB back in 2017, right after the election.  I saw so many old pals from schhol days, college days and church days turn on each because t beat HRC.  We all saw it.  Then these losers went after t and no one did anything because so many hate the man.  Just because you hate someone, it does not give them the right to cheat, steal, spy and lie on your competition.  I know you own a business bro and if your competition did what HRC did to t, you would be pissed off and you would want justice and your diamonds back, if you owned a Diamond Store like Kay.  This is all nonsense and like said to you before in a PM, Symbolism will be their down fall.  I study body language and numbers for a living.  The number 19 has meaning to these monsters= 19=Chaos/ Chaos=Fear.  Get it ready for chaos and much worse things to happen and more fear.  Money Pox is coming this summer.  BTW, ;like I said before, It's been 100% a pleasure to serve with you on SMS over the years.  You know I am not full of BS either.  You might not agree with anything I say like K and S, but you do agree I am honest and authentic.  Honesty does not= I am right.  I am just honest with what I think, see and hear with my brain, eyes and my ears.  I have a very strong intellect that is not from this place, trust me.  I went through all the brainwashing in school and in churches to better interstand what people are trying to sell the masses.  This place is all fear base money machine  I have strong intuition and even a little Telepathy with a few humans. I see you as true and authentic human and a individual being sitting on the fence......lol. I'm here to knock you off the fence and get you with the winning side. I mean no harm to you. Let's see what today brings. Do not worry about Tomorrow because Tomorrow has enough to worry about. Be honest and true to Today and by golly Today will bless you 100%. Cheat, lie, spy and steal will only kill one's soul


Thanks for the thoughts.  Easier said than done, but we can't sweat the stuff that we can't control.  Best we can do is make our little part of the world better.


----------



## crush

Another person dying in their sleep.  RIP Ray.  I will honor your meme's bro.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I know a few people that are currently sick with Covid-like symptoms that have repeatedly tested negative with home tests, my daughter included.


If someone has mild covid-like symptoms and negative covid tests, it could just be the flu.  No reason it has to be a new invisible covid variant.  



crush said:


> Watty, please answer just this one Q I have.  How many people died from the flu the last two sum years?  If you won;t or can;t answer, does anyone here willing to answer my Q with the TRUTH?  Please, any smart person can look this up.  No one know has a clue clue where the flu flu went?


Where did the flu go?  

You haven’t seen the flu for 2 years because transmission dropped below 1.  We’ve been fighting it.  Too many people wearing masks, meeting outside, staying home for small sniffles, running air cleaners, opening windows, and so on.  

When enough people go back to normal, the flu will go back to normal, too.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If someone has mild covid-like symptoms and negative covid tests, it could just be the flu.  No reason it has to be a new invisible covid variant.
> 
> 
> Where did the flu go?
> 
> You haven’t seen the flu for 2 years because transmission dropped below 1.  We’ve been fighting it.  Too many people wearing masks, meeting outside, staying home for small sniffles, running air cleaners, opening windows, and so on.
> 
> When enough people go back to normal, the flu will go back to normal, too.


So are you saying that the flu has similar symptoms to Covid?

Genuine question (since I rarely ask one), is it possible for a dominant virus to push out other viruses? For example, can a virus be more contagious so that it beats other viruses to the host?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So are you saying that the flu has similar symptoms to Covid?
> 
> Genuine question (since I rarely ask one), is it possible for a dominant virus to push out other viruses? For example, can a virus be more contagious so that it beats other viruses to the host?


The main way I know for one virus to push put another is cross immunity.  Omicron can push out Delta because the antibodies from one help against the other.  The first one to the host wins, and omicron is faster.

Similarly, one flu can push out another flu.  And a new covid variant might push out omicron.  But it only works for close relatives.  Your covid antibodies are the wrong shape to be any help against influenza.  So, even if you are chock full of covid antibodies, it won’t matter at all to the flu.  And vice versa.


----------



## Grace T.

Asymptomatic spread isn't very efficient.....









						Covid asymptomatic were 66% less likely to pass virus on, experts say
					

Swiss experts who studied 28,000 cases found people with asymptomatic Covid are far less likely to spread the virus than those who get ill.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Multi Sport

watfly said:


> Thanks for the thoughts.  Easier said than done, but we can't sweat the stuff that we can't control.  Best we can do is make our little part of the world better.


Hopefully our part of the world will not include anything from Antarctica.  Not exactly a warm and fuzzy article about antibiotic resistant bacteria found there.









						Bacteria with antibiotic resistant genes discovered in Antarctica, scientists say
					

Bacteria in Antarctica have been discovered with genes that give them natural antibiotic and antimicrobial resistance and have the potential to spread out of the polar regions, according to scientists in Chile.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Multi Sport

kickingandscreaming said:


> I've heard of quite a few cases very recently within our social group and local schools - all have had mild cases.


Yep.. my sisters 8 year old tested positive. The schools reply was he can come back when he test negative,  so they did a home test(negative result)and back to school he went.


----------



## crush

Mask are back folks and soon and very soon were going on severe lockdown.  Our beautiful country has been taken over.  We live in crazy times.  Good luck to all thoese who chose jab + booster + mask so they can attend Big U.  I love you all 
"We are already one of the strictest schools with COVID; not only do we have to be vaccinated and boosted, but we also have to be tested weekly and fill out a symptom monitoring survey," said Stella Foreman, a freshman at the university


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Mask are back folks and soon and very soon were going on severe lockdown.  Our beautiful country has been taken over.  We live in crazy times.  Good luck to all thoese who chose jab + booster + mask so they can attend Big U.  I love you all
> "We are already one of the strictest schools with COVID; not only do we have to be vaccinated and boosted, but we also have to be tested weekly and fill out a symptom monitoring survey," said Stella Foreman, a freshman at the university


UCLA is back to masks.  https://covid-19.ucla.edu/

Feel fortunate that my daughter is going to college out of state, a school that stayed mostly open during the pandemic.  Sad but Covid policies did play a small role in our decision on college.  She, my wife and I didn't want her to go to a school that would likely shutdown and go online.  Nor did we want to pay for that type of education.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> UCLA is back to masks.  https://covid-19.ucla.edu/
> 
> Feel fortunate that my daughter is going to college out of state, a school that stayed mostly open during the pandemic.  Sad but Covid policies did play a small role in our decision on college.  She, my wife and I didn't want her to go to a school that would likely shutdown and go online.  Nor did we want to pay for that type of education.


Basically, the education system is a mess and super controlling.  You better obey or no entry.  Imagine a beautiful dd and real biological female swimmer who wants to swim for Cal or any program.  It looks like most of the girls get screamed at and so much more.  Then they habe get all the jabs + boosters + wear mask when told to and then get verbally abused and or more just to swim for your school.  If you survive emotionally and endure hardship, you get rewarded with competing agiants Lia and other men.  When real men stand by and watch this happen, it will never end and will only get worse.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> UCLA is back to masks.  https://covid-19.ucla.edu/
> 
> Feel fortunate that my daughter is going to college out of state, a school that stayed mostly open during the pandemic.  Sad but Covid policies did play a small role in our decision on college.  She, my wife and I didn't want her to go to a school that would likely shutdown and go online.  Nor did we want to pay for that type of education.


OMG! The horror . . . the horror . . . A MASK!!!!! Lol! I’d be more worried about the gun laws in that state and campus safety records.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> OMG! The horror . . . the horror . . . A MASK!!!!! Lol! I’d be more worried about the gun laws in that state and campus safety records.


You have no kids, right?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> OMG! The horror . . . the horror . . . A MASK!!!!! Lol! I’d be more worried about the gun laws in that state and campus safety records.


Again a complete mischaracterization of my words.  Is that all your side has?  More likely to implement masks = more likely to shutdown school.  Sorry but I'm not paying $40k+ a year for online school.  Kids at UCLA are still having to take a number of online classes.  In regard to your partisan talking points, I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?  IDK I'm not a gun guy, but it's a plausible correlation.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Again a complete mischaracterization of my words.  Is that all your side has?  More likely to implement masks = more likely to shutdown school.  Sorry but I'm not paying $40k+ a year for online school.  Kids at UCLA are still having to take a number of online classes.  In regard to your partisan talking points, I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?  IDK I'm not a gun guy, but it's a plausible correlation.


He's a race baiter and a hater at that.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Again a complete mischaracterization of my words.  Is that all your side has?  More likely to implement masks = more likely to shutdown school.  Sorry but I'm not paying $40k+ a year for online school.  Kids at UCLA are still having to take a number of online classes.  In regard to your partisan talking points, I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?  IDK I'm not a gun guy, but it's a plausible correlation.


" I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?"

Your logic escapes me.


----------



## crush

The cheaters, liars, spiers, haters, dividers, stealers and pure evil will be gone soon.  Hang in there all of you on the side of TRUTH.   We are witnessing magic


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Again a complete mischaracterization of my words.  Is that all your side has?  More likely to implement masks = more likely to shutdown school.  Sorry but I'm not paying $40k+ a year for online school.  Kids at UCLA are still having to take a number of online classes.  In regard to your partisan talking points, I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?  IDK I'm not a gun guy, but it's a plausible correlation.


Well, some people don’t like Mondays.
. . . and maybe college cops are braver than those in the great state of Texas? Point is masks are a minor bother in the grand scheme of things.








						List: California's Deadliest School Shootings
					

An 18-year-old gunman shot and killed 18 children and three adults Monday at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. It’s the latest mass shooting to take the lives of innocent children at a school in the United States. NBC4 gathered a list of California’s deadliest school shootings on campuses...




					www.nbclosangeles.com


----------



## crush

Big NRA meeting the same week 19 kids are dead.  Teacher "propped" a locked door open and the punk when in tje class execute 10 year olds.  This smells like shit.


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> " I don't think the state has ever had a mass school shooting, maybe because they make it easy for qualified individuals to get concealed carry permits?"
> 
> Your logic escapes me.


The cowards that attack and kill innocent people attack what are generally gun free zones. 
Can't recall one of these demented pukes attacking a police department or a facility where armed personnel are present...
Unfortunately the school police officer was not on campus when this piece of shit entered the school.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> Well, some people don’t like Mondays.
> . . . and maybe college cops are braver than those in the great state of Texas? Point is masks are a minor bother in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List: California's Deadliest School Shootings
> 
> 
> An 18-year-old gunman shot and killed 18 children and three adults Monday at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. It’s the latest mass shooting to take the lives of innocent children at a school in the United States. NBC4 gathered a list of California’s deadliest school shootings on campuses...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbclosangeles.com


and some people, like you Daffy, are worthless pieces of shit...


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Well, some people don’t like Mondays.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List: California's Deadliest School Shootings
> 
> 
> An 18-year-old gunman shot and killed 18 children and three adults Monday at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. It’s the latest mass shooting to take the lives of innocent children at a school in the United States. NBC4 gathered a list of California’s deadliest school shootings on campuses...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbclosangeles.com


It's is completely disturbing and tragic how we have gone from Cleveland Elementary to Robb Elementary.  I remember the Cleveland shooting like it was yesterday.

And by state I mean where she is going to school.  Not California, thanks for giving us another reason for my kid to go out of state.


----------



## crush

Lion Eyes said:


> The cowards that attack and kill innocent people attack what are generally gun free zones.
> Can't recall one of these demented pukes attacking a police department or a facility where armed personnel are present...
> Unfortunately the school police officer was not on campus when this piece of shit entered the school.


Makes one wonder.  Propped door open.  The killers Mom is now on a porch couch rubbing her Rosary.  This has all the harmarks of evil and some say a satanic ritual killing of the 19 children.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Well, some people don’t like Mondays.
> . . . and maybe college cops are braver than those in the great state of Texas? Point is masks are a minor bother in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List: California's Deadliest School Shootings
> 
> 
> An 18-year-old gunman shot and killed 18 children and three adults Monday at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. It’s the latest mass shooting to take the lives of innocent children at a school in the United States. NBC4 gathered a list of California’s deadliest school shootings on campuses...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbclosangeles.com


I'd actually argue in the greater scheme of things they are all related.  When you tie the horrible failure of the police in Texas, the other recent shootings and car massacre together, the failed COVID response, the high gas prices (some predictions I'm seeing say $10 by mid summer!), the stagflation, the fact that our last two Presidents were a crazy man and someone who is practically senile at this point, and that we can't even produce baby formula, I actually wonder if civilization itself might have hit the point where it's breaking down (and not just the US, but the world as a whole).  

The point was hit home this weekend when we were supposed to stay at a Marriott for a soccer tournament.  We had the dog with us, and despite my having called the call center to verify the dog was o.k. to check in, when we got there they said no dogs and it was clearly posted on the website.  In the old days, even as far back as my 20s, Marriott would have just rebooked us to their neighboring property that was dog friendly and apologized for the inconvenience.  What followed was an hour long torture on the phone (since the hotel itself was unauthorized to help us) which resulted in my canceling my Marriott membership and throwing Marriott onto my boycotted company list (along with such other luminaries as United airlines...my longest running boycott now going on 26 years).

If we really are in the Matrix, maybe we've hit the end of the cycle? Or maybe crush is right and the rapture is upon us?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I'd actually argue in the greater scheme of things they are all related.  When you tie the horrible failure of the police in Texas, the other recent shootings and car massacre together, the failed COVID response, the high gas prices (some predictions I'm seeing say $10 by mid summer!), the stagflation, the fact that our last two Presidents were a crazy man and someone who is practically senile at this point, and that we can't even produce baby formula, I actually wonder if civilization itself might have hit the point where it's breaking down (and not just the US, but the world as a whole).
> 
> The point was hit home this weekend when we were supposed to stay at a Marriott for a soccer tournament.  We had the dog with us, and despite my having called the call center to verify the dog was o.k. to check in, when we got there they said no dogs and it was clearly posted on the website.  In the old days, even as far back as my 20s, Marriott would have just rebooked us to their neighboring property that was dog friendly and apologized for the inconvenience.  What followed was an hour long torture on the phone (since the hotel itself was unauthorized to help us) which resulted in my canceling my Marriott membership and throwing Marriott onto my boycotted company list (along with such other luminaries as United airlines...my longest running boycott now going on 26 years).
> 
> If we really are in the Matrix, maybe we've hit the end of the cycle? Or maybe crush is right and the rapture is upon us?


Emotional dog support is what you need.  PM me and I well hook u up.  I love it when hotels say no dogs.  Ya, say that to my Drs. Note.  I told you the system will come down hard because the system was and is built on Humam Trafficking and selfishness.  You can see whp has cheated.  I know many peoplel like you Grace.  It took a crazy man with the balls to take on these sic lunatics


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Emotional dog support is what you need.  PM me and I well hook u up.  I love it when hotels say no dogs.  Ya, say that to my Drs. Note.  I told you the system will come down hard because the system was and is built on Humam Trafficking and selfishness.  You can see whp has cheated.  I know many peoplel like you Grace.  It took a crazy man with the balls to take on these sic lunatics


You know me better than that....the employee at the front was practically begging me to say it was a service dog.  Out of ethics, I refused.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Well, some people don’t like Mondays.
> . . . and maybe college cops are braver than those in the great state of Texas? Point is masks are a minor bother in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List: California's Deadliest School Shootings
> 
> 
> An 18-year-old gunman shot and killed 18 children and three adults Monday at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. It’s the latest mass shooting to take the lives of innocent children at a school in the United States. NBC4 gathered a list of California’s deadliest school shootings on campuses...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbclosangeles.com


That list missed this one --





__





						San Diego State University shooting - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I'd actually argue in the greater scheme of things they are all related.  When you tie the horrible failure of the police in Texas, the other recent shootings and car massacre together, the failed COVID response, the high gas prices (some predictions I'm seeing say $10 by mid summer!), the stagflation, the fact that our last two Presidents were a crazy man and someone who is practically senile at this point, and that we can't even produce baby formula, I actually wonder if civilization itself might have hit the point where it's breaking down (and not just the US, but the world as a whole).
> 
> The point was hit home this weekend when we were supposed to stay at a Marriott for a soccer tournament.  We had the dog with us, and despite my having called the call center to verify the dog was o.k. to check in, when we got there they said no dogs and it was clearly posted on the website.  In the old days, even as far back as my 20s, Marriott would have just rebooked us to their neighboring property that was dog friendly and apologized for the inconvenience.  What followed was an hour long torture on the phone (since the hotel itself was unauthorized to help us) which resulted in my canceling my Marriott membership and throwing Marriott onto my boycotted company list (along with such other luminaries as United airlines...my longest running boycott now going on 26 years).
> 
> If we really are in the Matrix, maybe we've hit the end of the cycle? Or maybe crush is right and the rapture is upon us?


Other countries don’t have near as many mass murders, but they do have the gas prices.
Funny, I always fly United.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> OMG! The horror . . . the horror . . . A MASK!!!!! Lol! I’d be more worried about the gun laws in that state and campus safety records.


The fear of masks is completely overblown.  

On the other hand, it is reasonable to worry that you’ll get online school when you paid for for an in person education.  You don’t want to be stuck eating a baloney sandwich after you paid for the steak.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> It's is completely disturbing and tragic how we have gone from Cleveland Elementary to Robb Elementary.  I remember the Cleveland shooting like it was yesterday.
> 
> And by state I mean where she is going to school.  Not California, thanks for giving us another reason for my kid to go out of state.


Again, the point is that when the numbers go back up like they are the masks come back out, no biggie. Places like Texas and other states vying to be the “friendliest gun state” aren’t doing anyone but gun manufacturers any favors. Wear the damn mask it won’t kill you!


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> You know me better than that....the employee at the front was practically begging me to say it was a service dog.  Out of ethics, I refused.


My wife's dog is 100% emotioanl support and a family member.  Total BS!!


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Again, the point is that when the numbers go back up like they are the masks come back out, no biggie. Places like Texas and other states vying to be the “friendliest gun state” aren’t doing anyone but gun manufacturers any favors. Wear the damn mask it won’t kill you!


Hi Golden Gate....lol


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> The fear of masks is completely overblown.
> 
> On the other hand, it is reasonable to worry that you’ll get online school when you paid for for an in person education.  You don’t want to be stuck eating a baloney sandwich after you paid for the steak.


Yeah processed meat is more a concern than masks, just saying.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah processed meat is more a concern than masks, just saying.


Control freak


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Other countries don’t have near as many mass murders, but they do have the gas prices.
> Funny, I always fly United.


a. first you have to adjust by limiting it to the western first world.  Otherwise places like Uganda, El Salvador and even Mexico have a bone to pick with you.
b. you have to define mass murders.  Most US violence is gang violence, and when you start to limit the definition of mass murders, if you throw out countries like Australia (pesky island) and Japan (another pesky island), the number of mass incidents get a whole lot closer.  European mass murders though tend to be terrorist acts.
c. then you have to define "near".  On a per capita basis the numbers become much closer.

There are two other ways, BTW, that this incident is related to COVID:

-By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID.  He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him.  I'm not saying COVID policies caused the shooting, but they have been cited as a contributing factor in a few recent events.
-Any hope of a federal gun control compromise with the red states died with COVID restrictions.  On red twitter you basically see a lot of COVID proved we can't trust the government at all, and if it wasn't for our citizenry being able to stand up for itself and the problems the government knows it would cause, the feds would have tried to make us Australia or China.


----------



## crush

*Tactical team prevented from entering school earlier by local Uvalde police: report*


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a. first you have to adjust by limiting it to the western first world.  Otherwise places like Uganda, El Salvador and even Mexico have a bone to pick with you.
> b. you have to define mass murders.  Most US violence is gang violence, and when you start to limit the definition of mass murders, if you throw out countries like Australia (pesky island) and Japan (another pesky island), the number of mass incidents get a whole lot closer.  European mass murders though tend to be terrorist acts.
> c. then you have to define "near".  On a per capita basis the numbers become much closer.
> 
> There are two other ways, BTW, that this incident is related to COVID:
> 
> -By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID.  He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him.  I'm not saying COVID policies caused the shooting, but they have been cited as a contributing factor in a few recent events.
> -*Any hope of a federal gun control compromise with the red states died with COVID restrictions. * On red twitter you basically see a lot of COVID proved we can't trust the government at all, and if it wasn't for our citizenry being able to stand up for itself and the problems the government knows it would cause, the feds would have tried to make us Australia or China.


Are you trying to imply that back in 2019 red states were willing to compromise on gun control?

Which 10 Republican senators are you thinking of?  

You’re mourning the death of a unicorn.  It’s been decades since the GOP had senators willing to consider gun control measures.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> a. first you have to adjust by limiting it to the western first world.  Otherwise places like Uganda, El Salvador and even Mexico have a bone to pick with you.
> b. you have to define mass murders.  Most US violence is gang violence, and when you start to limit the definition of mass murders, if you throw out countries like Australia (pesky island) and Japan (another pesky island), the number of mass incidents get a whole lot closer.  European mass murders though tend to be terrorist acts.
> c. then you have to define "near".  On a per capita basis the numbers become much closer.
> 
> There are two other ways, BTW, that this incident is related to COVID:
> 
> -By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID.  He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him.  I'm not saying COVID policies caused the shooting, but they have been cited as a contributing factor in a few recent events.
> -Any hope of a federal gun control compromise with the red states died with COVID restrictions.  On red twitter you basically see a lot of COVID proved we can't trust the government at all, and if it wasn't for our citizenry being able to stand up for itself and the problems the government knows it would cause, the feds would have tried to make us Australia or China.


Coocoo.


----------



## dad4

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah processed meat is more a concern than masks, just saying.


I would respect the conservative side here more if they had the ability to distinguish between their strong arguments and their weak ones.

Quite a few seem to want to conflate “keep in person schools open”’ with “all masks are useless.”.   One is a valid and important point.  The other has been repeatedly disproven.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> You have no kids, right?


We can only hope


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


Oh Magoo, you've done it yet again!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Oh Magoo, you've done it yet again!


"By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID. He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him. "  Source?

"Any hope of a federal gun control compromise with the red states died with COVID restrictions. "  The source for that, of course, is you.


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> Other countries don’t have near as many mass murders, but they do have the gas prices.
> Funny, I always fly United.


Once again a Big Fat Lie !
Combined, just the " Eurozone NATO Countries " has more than the US.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Are you trying to imply that back in 2019 red states were willing to compromise on gun control?
> 
> Which 10 Republican senators are you thinking of?
> 
> You’re mourning the death of a unicorn.  It’s been decades since the GOP had senators willing to consider gun control measures.


I'm saying, based on what I'm reading on red twitter, that they'll fight tooth and nail even against reasonable common sense limitations like magazine capacities because they are convinced now the government is out to get them.  Not that it caused an inability to compromise....just that it's the nail in the coffin for the possibility of one.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> "By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID. He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him. "  Source?
> 
> "Any hope of a federal gun control compromise with the red states died with COVID restrictions. "  The source for that, of course, is you.


She is the queen of spin!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm saying, based on what I'm reading on red twitter, that they'll fight tooth and nail even against reasonable common sense limitations like magazine capacities because they are convinced now the government is out to get them.  Not that it caused an inability to compromise....just that it's the nail in the coffin for the possibility of one.


How does one subscribe to "red twitter"?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How does one subscribe to "red twitter"?


Duh


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I'm saying, based on what I'm reading on red twitter, that they'll fight tooth and nail even against reasonable common sense limitations like magazine capacities because they are convinced now the government is out to get them.  Not that it caused an inability to compromise....just that it's the nail in the coffin for the possibility of one.


“They” or more properly we don’t write laws, if they did universal waiting periods and background checks would have been around for decades.








						88 percent in new poll support background checks on all gun sales
					

An overwhelming majority of Americans questioned in a poll conducted one day after the mass shooting at an elementary school in Texas supports background checks on all gun sales. The survey from Mo…




					thehill.com
				



“They” are 4% in that poll


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I'm saying, based on what I'm reading on red twitter, that they'll fight tooth and nail even against reasonable common sense limitations like magazine capacities because they are convinced now the government is out to get them.  Not that it caused an inability to compromise....just that it's the nail in the coffin for the possibility of one.


The Military is the only option Grace T to fix our corrupt system.  I know grown ass rich fathers who are the weakest, softest and the biggest milk toast loser sell outs I have ever met.  They want and love status and $$$ over what is right and say nothing so they don;t lose what they worked so hard to achieve for their kids.  Total sell outs in our country


----------



## crush

*Texas shooting: Keith Olbermann accuses conservatives of being in the 'School Children Killing business'*
*Keith Olbermann also wants to "take" long guns away to prevent school shootings*


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> The Military is the only option Grace T to fix our corrupt system.  I know grown ass rich fathers who are the weakest, softest and the biggest milk toast loser sell outs I have ever met.  They want and love status and $$$ over what is right and say nothing so they don;t lose what they worked so hard to achieve for their kids.  Total sell outs in our country


Errr.....o.k.....you openly calling for a coup now?



Hüsker Dü said:


> “They” or more properly we don’t write laws, if they did universal waiting periods and background checks would have been around for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 88 percent in new poll support background checks on all gun sales
> 
> 
> An overwhelming majority of Americans questioned in a poll conducted one day after the mass shooting at an elementary school in Texas supports background checks on all gun sales. The survey from Mo…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “They” are 4% in that poll


You know as well as I know that minorities sometimes punch about their weight on particular issues because they care passionately about them.  It's why some states won't limit third trimester abortions or put in parental consent laws even though majorities favor this or why the red states will resist common sense gun limitations.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Errr.....o.k.....you openly calling for a coup now?
> 
> 
> You know as well as I know that minorities sometimes punch about their weight on particular issues because they care passionately about them.  It's why some states won't limit third trimester abortions or put in parental consent laws even though majorities favor this or why the red states will resist common sense gun limitations.


"You know as well as I know"?  What is that "knowledge" based on?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "You know as well as I know"?  What is that "knowledge" based on?


Duh


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> *Errr.....o.k.....you openly calling for a coup now?*


WTF are you talking about?  That is bullshit Grace T call me out like that.  Thanks for putting words in my writing.  I think the Military is the only option.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Duh


Duh you Grace T.  I am so disappointed in you for telling everyone on here that crush is calling for a coup.  Thanks for nothing girl.  Tell you what, I am calling on the Creator to put the biggest coup on the world because most sold out their countries for war and money and status and you know it.  War hawks!!!


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> WTF are you talking about?  That is bullshit Grace T call me out like that.  Thanks for putting words in my writing.  I think the Military is the only option.


I'm asking you an honest question....what does that mean? It sounds like you are calling for a coup, which if you didn't intend, I respect and I'm sorry man.  But what does "I think the Military is the only option" mean?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I'm asking you an honest question....what does that mean? It sounds like you are calling for a coup, which if you didn't intend, I respect and I'm sorry man.  But what does "I think the Military is the only option" mean?


I am calling on someone in high command that can deal with the rats in the swamp.  The Military is the only option, moo.  "Err" is stupid to throw out at me.  Duh and Err is all you got?  Look, based on all your posting the last four years, you worked with these losers on both sides.  You hate t and call him crazy and this old man is only senile?  WTF up!!!   That's it for all you have learned at Ivy league school and education?   Oh brother, what a mess we got on our hands.  I love you girl but you have everything wrong!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> I'm asking you an honest question....what does that mean? It sounds like you are calling for a coup, which if you didn't intend, I respect and I'm sorry man.  But what does "I think the Military is the only option" mean?


It means “DADDY IS GONE! BRING BACK DADDY!!!”


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> I am calling on someone in high command that can deal with the rats in the swamp.  The Military is the only option, moo.  "Err" is stupid to throw out at me.  Duh and Err is all you got?  Look, based on all your posting the last four years, you worked with these losers on both sides.  You hate t and call him crazy and this old man is only senile?  WTF up!!!   That's it for all you have learned at Ivy league school and education?   Oh brother, what a mess we got on our hands.  I love you girl but you have everything wrong!!!


I dunno man....trying to be fair to you, but it sure does seem you want the military to carry out a coup against the government, or swamp as you put it.  Love you crush but that no es bueno.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Duh


It's just the voices in your head again?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> It's just the voices in your head again?


Duh


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Duh


Illuminating.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Illuminating.


Duh


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I dunno man....trying to be fair to you, but it sure does seem you want the military to carry out a coup against the government, or swamp as you put it.  Love you crush but that no es bueno.


You sound like the _ _ _ now, lol.  Are you baiting me into calling for a _ _ _ _?   I might be a dumb dumb to all you college smart asses and Ivy players, but I'm not stupid.  That will just have the _ _ _ at my apartment Grace T?  California is already going after the Docs that speak out against the jab or fire those who say no to jab.  I'm sure Golden Gate and a few others WHO are afraid of losing their wealth and their way of life have told people in high command in CA to keep an eye on me.  The PMs I get back that up.  It was four years ago that I came right here to the forum to blow my gasket and start asking hard questions about why some men in this sport are assholes and why do some of them lie so much to little girls it makes you wonder why they lie so much.  Remember, I was the only father who didn;t care about the college deal....lol.  All I got early on was being mocked, laughed at, told I was on Meds, bullied, "Ignore" "Coo Coo" "Babbling" Nonsense" Full of Bullshit, Medal Chaser, Ketchup Pops cycle sucking loser who folks just laughed at and didn;t really take me too serious.  Where are they now?  They all gone or they all logged into some accounts to attack me?  I got it all grace T.   Dads on here made fun of me and my dd because my dd was snake oiled and lied to, yelled at, screamed at, threaten, bullied and told unless I STFU, me crush will keep my dd from college soccer  All this before HS.  Wake up girl........I was told directly by three Doc Guru Middlemen to STFU and even the God Father himself.  I already have all the text, emails and PM's that make me not very well liked.  I have been threaten on this forum not to go to the fields or else.  I was threaten by Docs with so much access swagger and influence that they can get 99.9% of the parents to STFU and turn the other way and close their ears and their eyes so their dd would not miss out on college soccer and greatness.  You lived in the swamp just like Roger Stone so you know exactly what the swamp is, so just stop it.  You know the goings on.  Nice try.  I want peace through strength and I want our Military to help us fix this.  BTW, Q is the one I was quoted.  Q said, "The Military is the only option."  Go ask the Q team Grace.  BTW, another person I know died in their sleep last night.  This is the new silent killer and i now help a few friends with good prayers before they go down fpr the night.  I love you and will speak my HOTness to you always.  Have you signed up for TRUTH yet?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The fear of masks is completely overblown.
> 
> On the other hand, it is reasonable to worry that you’ll get online school when you paid for for an in person education.  You don’t want to be stuck eating a baloney sandwich after you paid for the steak.


And like clockwork another mischaracterization of the opposing argument.  No one is afraid of masks, nor have any of us made the claim.

Speaking of food we know students at UCLA and LMU that can't get fed at the school due to staffing shortages.  Despite paying for a meal plan they have to go off campus to be fed.  Another strike against California universities.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> And like clockwork another mischaracterization of the opposing argument.  No one is afraid of masks, nor have any of us made the claim.
> 
> Speaking of food we know students at UCLA and LMU that can't get fed at the school due to staffing shortages.  Despite paying for a meal plan they have to go off campus to be fed.  Another strike against California universities.


I know families that have kids at both schools.  It's not what you think, that's all I can say.  For whatever the reason, I have been in Westwood a lot and it's looking not like it used to.  Msk everywhere, like right now.  Mask and Jabs or no school for you.  LMU, oh boy!  I'm just being honest and others thinks it's amazing.  My biggest concern are the thousands of prisoners and phychopaths that were let out two years ago.  They had food and place to sleep before the Rona.  Then they all got kicked out.  I was at a stop light and some guy was pulling his pants down and flashing the cars and the people walking.  This was on Wilshire Blvd.


----------



## crush

Look, a bombshell Photo of t meeting with a Russian agent and the biggest baby killer of all time.  TGIFF!!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> And like clockwork another mischaracterization of the opposing argument.  No one is afraid of masks, nor have any of us made the claim.
> 
> Speaking of food we know students at UCLA and LMU that can't get fed at the school due to staffing shortages.  Despite paying for a meal plan they have to go off campus to be fed.  Another strike against California universities.


I will say I have an enormous amount of sympathy for anyone who has children of any age still in school. Times are tough here in America.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I'm saying, based on what I'm reading on red twitter, that they'll fight tooth and nail even against reasonable common sense limitations like magazine capacities because they are convinced now the government is out to get them.  Not that it caused an inability to compromise....just that it's the nail in the coffin for the possibility of one.


Where do you get the idea that covid ruined the possibility of a compromise on on gun control?

That was your claim.

I think it's a load of hooey.   The purported compromise was already dead in 2019.
If it was "the nail in the coffin", it was a nail in the coffin of someone who has already been shot, poisoned, drawn, quartered, and hung.


----------



## dad4

Te





watfly said:


> And like clockwork another mischaracterization of the opposing argument.  No one is afraid of masks, nor have any of us made the claim.
> 
> Speaking of food we know students at UCLA and LMU that can't get fed at the school due to staffing shortages.  Despite paying for a meal plan they have to go off campus to be fed.  Another strike against California universities.


Tell you what, I will stop using "fear" to characterize your side's opinions, if you guys stop using "fear" to characterize mine.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Where do you get the idea that covid ruined the possibility of a compromise on on gun control?
> 
> That was your claim.
> 
> I think it's a load of hooey.   The purported compromise was already dead in 2019.
> If it was "the nail in the coffin", it was a nail in the coffin of someone who has already been shot, poisoned, drawn, quartered, and hung.


that's fair.  I'm not passing on the merits of the claim.  Just that it's what I'm seeing on red twitter from politicians, talking heads and the proles alike.  And i'm seeing it alot from multiple unconnected people.  The argument typically goes: if you think I'll let the government do [x gun control policy] after what I saw them try to do with COVID and what Australia did with its unarmed citizens, you've got another thing coming.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> that's fair.  I'm not passing on the merits of the claim.  Just that it's what I'm seeing on red twitter from politicians, talking heads and the proles alike.  And i'm seeing it alot from multiple unconnected people.  The argument typically goes: if you think I'll let the government do [x gun control policy] after what I saw them try to do with COVID and what Australia did with its unarmed citizens, you've got another thing coming.


How many of those people previously supported background checks or magazine size limits?  Close to zero?

I don't doubt they link it rhetorically, but their opposition is exactly where it was 36 months ago.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> How many of those people previously supported background checks or magazine size limits?  Close to zero?
> 
> I don't doubt they link it rhetorically, but their opposition is exactly where it was 36 months ago.


"there was never any chance of compromise" is a fair position to have.

But to the extent there was, I can guarantee you there isn't any now (even with some basic common sense things we all could otherwise agree to like magazine capacities) because of what happened with COVID, at least as far as the red staters are concerned.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "there was never any chance of compromise" is a fair position to have.
> 
> But to the extent there was, I can guarantee you there isn't any now (even with some basic common sense things we all could otherwise agree to like magazine capacities) because of what happened with COVID, at least as far as the red staters are concerned.


If so, a reasonable reaction for Dems would be to set up votes on all the most popular gun control measures, and let the Republicans vote them all down.

I'm sure the Dems first choice is to pass something, but watching Republicans alienate 88% of the electorate has to be a close second.

Your 4% of voters on "red Twitter" can continue to dominate the primaries.  They'll be about as useful as AOC, and in much the same way.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> that's fair.  I'm not passing on the merits of the claim.  Just that it's what I'm seeing on red twitter from politicians, talking heads and the proles alike.  And i'm seeing it alot from multiple unconnected people.  The argument typically goes: if you think I'll let the government do [x gun control policy] after what I saw them try to do with COVID and what Australia did with its unarmed citizens, you've got another thing coming.


Have you been to red TRUTH. yet?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If so, a reasonable reaction for Dems would be to set up votes on all the most popular gun control measures, and let the Republicans vote them all down.
> 
> I'm sure the Dems first choice is to pass something, but watching Republicans alienate 88% of the electorate has to be a close second.
> 
> Your 4% of voters on "red Twitter" can continue to dominate the primaries.  They'll be about as useful as AOC, and in much the same way.


Because they can't.  They are trapped as much by their wing that wants to confiscate the guns (and BTW are terrified of that group turning on them for their own armed private security) and go big and don't want to be primaried by those that call them soft on guns.

It's the same issue with abortion.  The vast majority of Americans agree on the outlines of a policy which is very similar to Europe.  But neither side will put that forward.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> It's the same issue with abortion.  The vast majority of Americans agree on the outlines of a policy which is very similar to Europe.  But *neither side will put that forward.*


Side or State?  I am for each State deciding how many weeks until too many si too many.  If California votes to go all the way up until birth because mom says so and the folks vote yes on that, then that will be the law in our State.  If Oklahoma folks say, "No more than 6 weeks, after that, it's some sort of find or something?  Jail time?"  Let each State decide grace T.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> If so, a reasonable reaction for Dems would be to set up votes on all the most popular gun control measures, and let the Republicans vote them all down.
> 
> I'm sure the Dems first choice is to pass something, but watching Republicans alienate 88% of the electorate has to be a close second.
> 
> Your 4% of voters on "red Twitter" can continue to dominate the primaries.  They'll be about as useful as AOC, and in much the same way.


I’ll be surprised if any kind of gun control gets anywhere near 88% support when it comes time vote. There’s a lot more than 12% that have been marginalized by leadership as “a basket full of deplorables”, or “the most extreme organization that’s existed in recent American history”. When it comes down to making a decision, personal animosity will drive many away from what they would support in a vacuum. That’s the outcome of divisive leadership.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> I’ll be surprised if any kind of gun control gets anywhere near 88% support when it comes time vote. There’s a lot more than 12% that have been marginalized by leadership as “a basket full of deplorables”, or “the most extreme organization that’s existed in recent American history”. When it comes down to making a decision, personal animosity will drive many away from what they would support in a vacuum. That’s the outcome of divisive leadership.


So vengeance from the aggrieved over doing what is right because they feel they have been the victim of some mean rhetoric? Is this where we are in America? Hurt feelings and spiteful actions? We are doomed.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So vengeance from the aggrieved over doing what is right because they feel they have been the victim of some mean rhetoric? Is this where we are in America? Hurt feelings and spiteful actions? We are doomed.


We're at the point no one trusts one another, because they are convinced at best the other side is just trying to score political points, at worst that they want to do some pretty egregious stuff (kill the minorities, handmaid's tale women, China lockdowns, take kids away from their parents and have them educated by the state, communist revolution). And yes, I increasingly believe we are doomed....hanging around here in this thread the last 2 years should have convinced you about that.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> We're at the point no one trusts one another, because they are convinced at best the other side is just trying to score political points, at worst that they want to do some pretty egregious stuff (kill the minorities, handmaid's tale women, China lockdowns, take kids away from their parents and have them educated by the state, communist revolution). And yes, I increasingly believe we are doomed....hanging around here in this thread the last 2 years should have convinced you about that.


Both of the sides are searching for some unattainable nirvana. We use to all know that and compromise somewhere in the middle. Media, social and otherwise are polarizing us.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I’ll be surprised if any kind of gun control gets anywhere near 88% support when it comes time vote. There’s a lot more than 12% that have been marginalized by leadership as “a basket full of deplorables”, or “the most extreme organization that’s existed in recent American history”. When it comes down to making a decision, personal animosity will drive many away from what they would support in a vacuum. That’s the outcome of divisive leadership.


It won’t be an 88% vote for Democrats.  Any number over 50.1% counts exactly the same.

Any party that stakes out a 12% position should expect some pain.  This was true when Democrats failed to distance themselves from “defund the police”.  And it will be true when Republicans vote against criminal background checks at gun shows.


----------



## Lion Eyes

dad4 said:


> It won’t be an 88% vote for Democrats.  Any number over 50.1% counts exactly the same.
> 
> Any party that stakes out a 12% position should expect some pain.  This was true when Democrats failed to distance themselves from “defund the police”.  And it will be true when Republicans vote against criminal background checks at gun shows.


Defunding the police is a mistake.
Opposition to background tests is a mistake.


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> So vengeance from the aggrieved over doing what is right because they feel they have been the victim of some mean rhetoric? Is this where we are in America? Hurt feelings and spiteful actions? We are doomed.


And here I thought you were having a good day today...


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> So vengeance from the aggrieved over doing what is right because they feel they have been the victim of some mean rhetoric? Is this where we are in America? Hurt feelings and spiteful actions? We are doomed.


No doubt looking in the mirror as you typed that up....


----------



## crush

This just came out on the news.  I guess you need to be careful WHO you hook up with or you just might get infected with MonkeyPox

Traditionally, monkeypox virus is spread by touching or getting bitten by infected wild animals in western and central Africa.

However, the former World Health Organization's (WHO) emergencies department leader told The Associated Press earlier this week that *cases in Europe appear to have spread due to sexual activity at raves in Spain and Belgium.* 

While it is not a sexually transmitted infection, it can be transmitted in both personal and sexual contact, with a notable fraction of recorded cases occurring among gay and bisexual men.


----------



## crush

Love or hate?  Choose wisely my friends


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

and Rhinos......


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

"There is no substitute for a strong mom and great dad."   t


----------



## crush

All you 99%ters, please watch this......lol!!!  You guys were all watching the same BS news and I tried to warn you all.  Most of you are still blind and deaf!!!









						Hillary's Russian Disinfo | Trump Alfa-Bank Conspiracy Theory
					

Hillary's Russian Disinfo | Trump Alfa-Bank Conspiracy Theory  Shouldn't Hillary Clinton be banned from Twitter now❓  https://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/4582




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> "There is no substitute for a strong mom and great dad."   t



There's a WOMAN WITH BALLS in Charleston, West Virgina that
needs to be emulated !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Cain killed Abel with a rock.  God didn't blame the rock, just saying.......


----------



## crush

Hey snowflakes, please listen to Brother Mark


----------



## crush

"Tell me WHO side are you fighting on?"   I said, "Tell me WHO side are you fighting on?"  My answer: "I'm fighting on the _ _ _ _ side.  How about you fellow American.  Tell me, WHO side are you fighting on?


----------



## crush

Yippie horary, I feel the same way at Catturd.....lol


----------



## crush

*"We are "Fed" up"*


----------



## crush

"The Cheney's have never met a war they didn't like."  t


----------



## espola

espola said:


> "By all accounts the shooter was under stress from COVID. He wrote a lot complaining about COVID policies, which apparently really affected him. "  Source?


I guess it wasn't "all accounts" after all.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> I guess it wasn't "all accounts" after all.


Great work detective.  By all accounts Covid 19 was planned and in the year 19' they made a dry run movie and the CEO of Pfizer said back in Jan of 19' that they were going to do some crazy ass things by 2023, especial have a 50% drop in population.  Well, Mr. CEO  just told the world at the WEF and the Supreme Leader Klause that their goal of folks not affording their medicine is right on schedule and the crowd erupted in cheers and claps.  I think the shooter ((by all accounts)) was "programed" & "groomed" to do what he did right before the NRA convention and I think he had some help, luck and a little bit of help from Satan himself  The shooters mother and father said to "stop judging my son" and that their is 100% a reason why he carried out this command. "He had reasons" they both said and to please forgive them both. Mom knows what the deal is. 19 cops for 55+ minutes tried to unlock the door to save 19 children from bleeding out in room 111. I also saw a video of parents getting into it with one of the cops who was being a complete asshole to mama bears and papa bears. One mama bear got out of her cuffs and ran to her two kids and got them both out because the other 19 cops were all trying to figure out how to break into a lucked door for 55+ minutes. Wowza   19 beautiful children that were just 9+10 years old.  I hear that is the age these monsters like to inflect pain and torture kids.  I pray for all of us this planet.  I am calling on the Good Guys to please help our world.


----------



## crush

https://truthsocial.com/@JordanSather/108385565140880049


----------



## crush

Safe travels everyone.  Today I'm staying home with my wife and just chill.  Tomorrow is a very Special Day and I will look to honor my fallen brothers and sisters.


----------



## crush

*Biggest takeaway from Davos, World Economic Forum?  Well, let me have George share his vision for da future of civilization.





*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*"You will own nothing and be happy"

*


----------



## crush

THANK YOU!!!!


----------



## crush

*My Lib pal believes this right now.  It's a trip talking to him and I feel bad for him.  My best pal is brainwashed and is hooked on the Jim Jones Covidian Kool Aid.  Instead of drinking the juice, folks like him inject the juice in their arms in order to buy and sell.  Monkey flavor Juice is coming next.  If you are "fully" juiced up, you will be able to keep your job and your dear children will be able to attend college and play soccer, as long as they also inject the juice.   If you choose no juice, you will be fired, barred from entry to college to play soccer and forced to sit out of the finer things that this old system had to offer those who pay to play.....  *


----------



## crush

Nothing like going backwards in the election for a chance at a repeat.  These people cheat in front of you and don't care one bit.  Big Joe and Hunter got 81,000,000 votes.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Lia spoke last night

"If you say, like, you can compete, but you can't score or you're in an extra lane nine, that's very othering towards trans people," Thomas said. "And it is not offering them the same level of respect and opportunity to play and to compete."

Besides, she said, it's imperative to remember that transgender women are women.

"It's no different than a cis woman taking a spot on a travel team or a scholarship. It's a part of athletics, where people are competing against each other. It's not taking away opportunities from cis women really. Trans women are women, so it's still a woman who is getting that scholarship or that opportunity."


----------



## crush

This picture about say's it all.  We have become so either or. * Either* you repent and be like me *or* you go to hell.  I don't like either or.  I like for all of us to find a way to get a long and not judge each other.  Maybe every American should focus on themselves and not worry so much if that person got jabbed 5 times or if that person likes the same sex all the time.


----------



## crush

*"WE THE PEOPLE are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men [and women] who pervert the Constitution."*

— Honest Abe


----------



## Grace T.

In the I told you so column.....

New study showing that the CDC's original study used to justify school masking used too limited of a set....no substantial difference between masked/unmasked districts...CDC cherrypicked to come to it's intended result.  









						Revisiting Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties With and Without School Mask Requirements—United States, July 1—October 20 2021
					

Background: There has been considerable debate around mask requirements in schools in the United States and other countries during the Covid-19 pandemic. To dat



					papers.ssrn.com
				




The NY Times now on board with the entire on a micro level masks may work, but on a macro level mandates don't.  I recall being told this wasn't possible because of economies of scale.









						Why Masks Work, but Mandates Haven’t
					

Why haven’t Covid mask mandates made much difference?




					www.nytimes.com
				




Vaccine mandates have unintended consequences



			https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf
		


And Kaiser, in line with Europe, issued new guidance for its patients....Pfizer favored over Moderna for the under 40 males.


----------



## soccersc

Grace T. said:


> In the I told you so column.....
> 
> New study showing that the CDC's original study used to justify school masking used too limited of a set....no substantial difference between masked/unmasked districts...CDC cherrypicked to come to it's intended result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties With and Without School Mask Requirements—United States, July 1—October 20 2021
> 
> 
> Background: There has been considerable debate around mask requirements in schools in the United States and other countries during the Covid-19 pandemic. To dat
> 
> 
> 
> papers.ssrn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The NY Times now on board with the entire on a micro level masks may work, but on a macro level mandates don't.  I recall being told this wasn't possible because of economies of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Masks Work, but Mandates Haven’t
> 
> 
> Why haven’t Covid mask mandates made much difference?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine mandates have unintended consequences
> 
> 
> 
> https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> And Kaiser, in line with Europe, issued new guidance for its patients....Pfizer favored over Moderna for the under 40 males.


What is Kaiser's new guidance?

Because it looks the same to me?








						COVID-19: The Latest Information
					

Getting an updated booster dose helps protect you and your loved ones against severe illness. Testing helps prevent the spread of the coronavirus.



					about.kaiserpermanente.org


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> In the I told you so column.....
> 
> New study showing that the CDC's original study used to justify school masking used too limited of a set....no substantial difference between masked/unmasked districts...CDC cherrypicked to come to it's intended result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties With and Without School Mask Requirements—United States, July 1—October 20 2021
> 
> 
> Background: There has been considerable debate around mask requirements in schools in the United States and other countries during the Covid-19 pandemic. To dat
> 
> 
> 
> papers.ssrn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The NY Times now on board with the entire on a micro level masks may work, but on a macro level mandates don't.  I recall being told this wasn't possible because of economies of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Masks Work, but Mandates Haven’t
> 
> 
> Why haven’t Covid mask mandates made much difference?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine mandates have unintended consequences
> 
> 
> 
> https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> And Kaiser, in line with Europe, issued new guidance for its patients....Pfizer favored over Moderna for the under 40 males.


I didn't see "cherrypicked" or any language suggesting deliberate bias in the selection of data sources anywhere in the report.  

However, I did find this -- "An important limitation of our study is that it does not exclude some effectiveness of school mask mandates."


----------



## crush

DC Jury found Sus not guilty.  He took a chance with his peers and his peers found him not guilty.  Let's all just go back to normal and move on.  Nothing to see here.  Do you guys agree with t?  Grace T?  Remember what the great Q said girl.  I di not say it, Q said it.  I also heard that the largest egg plant burned down last night.  Bahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaa!!!!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Vaccine mandates have unintended consequences
> 
> 
> 
> https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf


<<
How is the BMJ different from MAD Magazine? Well, I have never found a hidden picture by folding the pages of the BMJ, and although the editorials are occasionally pithy, they really can’t compare to the entertainment value of Spy vs Spy. On the other hand, the BMJ is considered a trustworthy collection of important medical information. Both are just words on paper written by people, so why is the BMJ considered more trustworthy? Peer review is supposed to be the answer. Nothing is published in the BMJ without first being reviewed for quality and truth by a panel of experts. But how well does this process of peer review work?


“Dismally” is probably the first word that comes to my mind. Peer review can’t possibly address the systemic problems we have fostered by allowing science to be done by those with a vested interest in the outcomes, but even for evaluating the papers at face value peer review seems to be a poor tool. We rely on content experts, but generally not methodology experts – and its the methodology that makes or breaks a paper. Richard Smith, a former editor of BMJ, had this to say about peer review: “It is slow, expensive, ineffective, a lottery, biased, incapable of detecting fraud and prone to abuse”. (Smith 2004)
>>









						How is the BMJ different from MAD Magazine? Moving beyond peer review - First10EM
					

A discussion of the flaws with the modern scientific peer review process and the possible replacement with post publication review.




					first10em.com


----------



## crush

Turn it up fellas and Grace T.  Game on!!!!  Losers who cheat are losers!!!









						Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> In the I told you so column.....
> 
> New study showing that the CDC's original study used to justify school masking used too limited of a set....no substantial difference between masked/unmasked districts...CDC cherrypicked to come to it's intended result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties With and Without School Mask Requirements—United States, July 1—October 20 2021
> 
> 
> Background: There has been considerable debate around mask requirements in schools in the United States and other countries during the Covid-19 pandemic. To dat
> 
> 
> 
> papers.ssrn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The NY Times now on board with the entire on a micro level masks may work, but on a macro level mandates don't.  I recall being told this wasn't possible because of economies of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Masks Work, but Mandates Haven’t
> 
> 
> Why haven’t Covid mask mandates made much difference?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine mandates have unintended consequences
> 
> 
> 
> https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> And Kaiser, in line with Europe, issued new guidance for its patients....Pfizer favored over Moderna for the under 40 males.


Such bullshit to call them unintended consequences,  they may have been unintended but they were entirely predictable.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> DC Jury found Sus not guilty.  He took a chance with his peers and his peers found him not guilty.


Gandalf has no legit beef with the jury.  He knew jurisdiction going in and he had voir dire just like any other prosecutor. 

I followed this one closely since thought interesting, but I did it by reading the actual transcript (a lot of it at any rate) instead of the frothy media. Here's the thing. Gandalf had no real game.  The Balrog humiliated him on the court.  Gandalf had three witnesses that he had squeezed real hard and he thought he had it sewed up tight.  But the Balrog  just started pulling up and hitting three pointers on him.  I mean, the Balrog's cross of Baker, if you can get the transcript, was devasting to Gandalf.  His only witness to the only thing that was actually charged. You probably won't see that on Bitchute but that's how it was.  So then Gandalf tried to get into this wide open evidentiary running game with the Balrog, very little of which factored into materiality at all.  Gandalf was like maybe I can get this in and use it down the road. But turns out the Balrog loves himself a running game and was just taking it to the hoop on Gandalf during cross after cross over and over.  And all that's in the public record too.  And then when the jury asked for the taxi billing records that Gandalf tried to surpress that was just like MJ hanging on the rim and doing a tongue wag. So Gandalf only has himself to blame. He was playing out of league with shoddy prep.  He'll get another shot at the Balrog with Danchenko, but he's got some wounds to lick closed first.


----------



## espola

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Gandalf has no legit beef with the jury.  He knew jurisdiction going in and he had voir dire just like any other prosecutor.
> 
> I followed this one closely since thought interesting, but I did it by reading the actual transcript (a lot of it at any rate) instead of the frothy media. Here's the thing. Gandalf had no real game.  The Balrog humiliated him on the court.  Gandalf had three witnesses that he had squeezed real hard and he thought he had it sewed up tight.  But the Balrog  just started pulling up and hitting three pointers on him.  I mean, the Balrog's cross of Baker, if you can get the transcript, was devasting to Gandalf.  His only witness to the only thing that was actually charged. You probably won't see that on Bitchute but that's how it was.  So then Gandalf tried to get into this wide open evidentiary running game with the Balrog, very little of which factored into materiality at all.  Gandalf was like maybe I can get this in and use it down the road. But turns out the Balrog loves himself a running game and was just taking it to the hoop on Gandalf during cross after cross over and over.  And all that's in the public record too.  And then when the jury asked for the taxi billing records that Gandalf tried to surpress that was just like MJ hanging on the rim and doing a tongue wag. So Gandalf only has himself to blame. He was playing out of league with shoddy prep.  He'll get another shot at the Balrog with Danchenko, but he's got some wounds to lick closed first.


A good analysis of the Baker cross-examination can be found on (believe it or not) Fox News --









						Sussmann defense grills Baker during cross-examination, claims inconsistencies in testimony
					

Defense attorneys for Michael Sussmann grilled former FBI General Counsel James Baker during cross-examination Thursday afternoon




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Gandalf has no legit beef with the jury.  He knew jurisdiction going in and he had voir dire just like any other prosecutor.
> 
> I followed this one closely since thought interesting, but I did it by reading the actual transcript (a lot of it at any rate) instead of the frothy media. Here's the thing. Gandalf had no real game.  The Balrog humiliated him on the court.  Gandalf had three witnesses that he had squeezed real hard and he thought he had it sewed up tight.  But the Balrog  just started pulling up and hitting three pointers on him.  I mean, the Balrog's cross of Baker, if you can get the transcript, was devasting to Gandalf.  His only witness to the only thing that was actually charged. You probably won't see that on Bitchute but that's how it was.  So then Gandalf tried to get into this wide open evidentiary running game with the Balrog, very little of which factored into materiality at all.  Gandalf was like maybe I can get this in and use it down the road. But turns out the Balrog loves himself a running game and was just taking it to the hoop on Gandalf during cross after cross over and over.  And all that's in the public record too.  And then when the jury asked for the taxi billing records that Gandalf tried to surpress that was just like MJ hanging on the rim and doing a tongue wag. So Gandalf only has himself to blame. He was playing out of league with shoddy prep.  He'll get another shot at the Balrog with Danchenko, but he's got some wounds to lick closed first.


You lost me at Gandalf.  I have no idea what you just wrote. This is a simple RICO case.  Sus and Baker are best pals and he would have been found guilty to lying to himself and BFF.  Judge Cooper's wife is Lover Lisa lawyer.  The jury pool came from the swamp dude and you know it. Plus, if Sus was found guilty, then HRC would blame it all on Sus.  Sus we also find out had an office at the DOJ since 2012.  I think it's safe to say our system is corrupt Evil.  I remember witnessing and hearing about some horrible things a coach was doing and how he behaved.  I went to the high command and was told to STFU or else.  How many threats have you received the last three years because of youth soccer?  Seriously?  I have been threaten on numerous occasions.  Lost job and income because I said no to the 5 injections of the juice that you so proudly brag about.  Go deeper dude, you're just as shallow as the rest of them.  Ruin people's lives over forced jab or not.  That is evil, evil goalie......


----------



## crush

To all criminals, you're being watched and surveillance like never before.  The time to choose right or wrong is now and the good part in all this is you get to choose.  We all know the TRUTH by now and it's up to each person to decide to be on the side of the TRUTH or the Lie.  Criminals love their IPhone and so do the Good Guys.  Some day this will all get better but we have to put away all those who choose to cheat, spy, lie and ruin other people's lives so they can have it all to themselves.


----------



## crush

Fact:  Many of you have been hacked with A.I.= 19


----------



## crush

5 more days and I will be gone, I promise   "Red Wave" is a new hit song that is climbing the charts.  Happy Whacky Wednesday fellas and Grace T.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Gandalf has no legit beef with the jury.  He knew jurisdiction going in and he had voir dire just like any other prosecutor.
> 
> I followed this one closely since thought interesting, but I did it by reading the actual transcript (a lot of it at any rate) instead of the frothy media. Here's the thing. Gandalf had no real game.  The Balrog humiliated him on the court.  Gandalf had three witnesses that he had squeezed real hard and he thought he had it sewed up tight.  But the Balrog  just started pulling up and hitting three pointers on him.  I mean, the Balrog's cross of Baker, if you can get the transcript, was devasting to Gandalf.  His only witness to the only thing that was actually charged. You probably won't see that on Bitchute but that's how it was.  So then Gandalf tried to get into this wide open evidentiary running game with the Balrog, very little of which factored into materiality at all.  Gandalf was like maybe I can get this in and use it down the road. But turns out the Balrog loves himself a running game and was just taking it to the hoop on Gandalf during cross after cross over and over.  And all that's in the public record too.  And then when the jury asked for the taxi billing records that Gandalf tried to surpress that was just like MJ hanging on the rim and doing a tongue wag. So Gandalf only has himself to blame. He was playing out of league with shoddy prep.  He'll get another shot at the Balrog with Danchenko, but he's got some wounds to lick closed first.


TURLEY: “I mean, he is facing a jury that has three Clinton donors, an AOC donor, and a woman whose daughter is on the same sports team with Sussmann’s daughter. With the exception of randomly selecting people out of the DNC headquarters, you could not come up with a worse jury”


----------



## Desert Hound

I should have been a lifeguard.









						Los Angeles County Lifeguards Earn Mega Salaries | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> TURLEY: “I mean, he is facing a jury that has three Clinton donors, an AOC donor, and a woman whose daughter is on the same sports team with Sussmann’s daughter. With the exception of randomly selecting people out of the DNC headquarters, you could not come up with a worse jury”


So why did the prosecutor agree to place those jurors?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> I should have been a lifeguard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los Angeles County Lifeguards Earn Mega Salaries | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailywire.com


I was expecting something in there about bonuses for vaccination status, but I didn't find it.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> So why did the prosecutor agree to place those jurors?


To get Mr. Mook and others to spill the beans and to also SHOW America the TRUTH about how justice works in our country.  It's not perfect and he was 100% not guilty.  This is high stakes Chess Espola.  You give up a Pawn or two to get the beans spilled.  Plus, Sus was not guilty for many reasons. You can;t lie to your self for one and he was charged with lying to the FBI.  Next question?


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> So why did the prosecutor agree to place those jurors?


They didn't. Judge sat them anyway. 

Clear conflicts of interest that the judge said didn't matter. Judge has conflicts of interest as well.


----------



## crush

Interesting take on why The Bull Durham chose the DC Swamp.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad and other believers hit hardest.

Lancet finds masks didn't work.

So...basically back to where we started...and that is we have known for decades masks do little to stop respiratory viruses. 

“Replicating the CDC study shows similar results; however, incorporating a larger sample and longer period showed no significant relationship between mask mandates and case rates,” the study finds. “These results persisted when using regression methods to control for differences across districts. Interpretation: School districts that choose to mandate masks are likely to be systematically different from those that do not in multiple, often unobserved, ways. We failed to establish a relationship between school masking and pediatric cases using the same methods but a larger, more nationally diverse population over a longer interval. Our study demonstrates that observational studies of interventions with small to moderate effect sizes are prone to bias caused by selection and omitted variables. Randomized studies can more reliably inform public health policy.”









						New Lancet Study Destroys the CDC's Justification for School Mask Mandates
					






					townhall.com


----------



## crush

$8 gas in LA.


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> dad and other believers hit hardest.
> 
> Lancet finds masks didn't work.
> 
> So...basically back to where we started...and that is we have known for decades masks do little to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> “Replicating the CDC study shows similar results; however, incorporating a larger sample and longer period showed no significant relationship between mask mandates and case rates,” the study finds. “These results persisted when using regression methods to control for differences across districts. Interpretation: School districts that choose to mandate masks are likely to be systematically different from those that do not in multiple, often unobserved, ways. We failed to establish a relationship between school masking and pediatric cases using the same methods but a larger, more nationally diverse population over a longer interval. Our study demonstrates that observational studies of interventions with small to moderate effect sizes are prone to bias caused by selection and omitted variables. Randomized studies can more reliably inform public health policy.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lancet Study Destroys the CDC's Justification for School Mask Mandates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com


The article was concerned with mask mandates, not the masks themselves.

And "we have known for decades masks do little to stop respiratory viruses" is entirely a fabrication.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> dad and other believers hit hardest.
> 
> Lancet finds masks didn't work.
> 
> So...basically back to where we started...and that is we have known for decades masks do little to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> “Replicating the CDC study shows similar results; however, incorporating a larger sample and longer period showed no significant relationship between mask mandates and case rates,” the study finds. “These results persisted when using regression methods to control for differences across districts. Interpretation: School districts that choose to mandate masks are likely to be systematically different from those that do not in multiple, often unobserved, ways. We failed to establish a relationship between school masking and pediatric cases using the same methods but a larger, more nationally diverse population over a longer interval. Our study demonstrates that observational studies of interventions with small to moderate effect sizes are prone to bias caused by selection and omitted variables. Randomized studies can more reliably inform public health policy.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lancet Study Destroys the CDC's Justification for School Mask Mandates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> townhall.com


Correct me if I'm wrong but the various agencies didn't have data or studies to support Covid policies when they were implemented and only tried to justify them after the fact.   And as this case illustrates, based on erroneous studies in some cases.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the various agencies didn't have data or studies to support Covid policies when they were implemented and only tried to justify them after the fact.   And as this case illustrates, based on erroneous studies in some cases.


That is exactly it. 

Despite not having data supporting their position, they still instituted lockdowns, shuttered biz, closed schools, had people wear face diapers, etc. 

And the data coming out keeps going in one direction. 

The policies didn't work and in fact created great harm.


----------



## crush

Trial of the Century News from Bill Barr: 

“Complicated cases like this take a long time to build. They occur step-by-step and in secret. People don’t like that, but if they want people punished, that’s what it takes… If you want the facts, if you want a report, that can be done fairly quickly. *If you want scalps, that takes time.”  *


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Trial of the Century News from Bill Barr:
> 
> “Complicated cases like this take a long time to build. They occur step-by-step and in secret. People don’t like that, but if they want people punished, that’s what it takes… If you want the facts, if you want a report, that can be done fairly quickly. *If you want scalps, that takes time.”  *


Hold it.  Billy Barr?  The flagellation guy?  You sure that wasn't Liz Cheney that said that?  Sounds like something Liz would say.  She learned political infighting at her Daddy's knee.  I bet she keeps a light gauge loaded up with 6 shot at the ready in her office.  In case she flushes a covey. Most of those octogenarian Congress critters don't have much of a pelt left anyways.  Can you imagine scalping Grassley?  Kind of like the definition of a futile endeavor.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Anybody got the link to that Lancet paper?  Like the actual paper. The latest masks suck, mandates suck one.  The link from the frothy media site just links back to the original CDC analysis in MMWR from 2021....which is probably not what was intended.  Didn't see anything in the Jun 1 early release on the Lancet site.  Tried Google, did pull up this just yesterday release from Proc. Natl. Acad. Very large study across six continents.  The Introduction gives a nice overview of some of the complicating factors in evaluating mask efficacy versus mandate efficacy.   



			https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> So why did the prosecutor agree to place those jurors?


Right. Gandalf would have had his rounds of peremptory challenges in striking jurors, just like the Balrog.  Criminal case so jurisdiction is where the crime is alleged to have been committed.  Gandalf at least had the decency not to bitch and moan about the jury.  That's all the Outrage Machine.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> A good analysis of the Baker cross-examination can be found on (believe it or not) Fox News --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sussmann defense grills Baker during cross-examination, claims inconsistencies in testimony
> 
> 
> Defense attorneys for Michael Sussmann grilled former FBI General Counsel James Baker during cross-examination Thursday afternoon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


That is actually fair and balanced.  The transcript captured something of what I'm guessing was actually the pathos in the courtroom however.  So, in his cross the Balrog begins by pointing out that Baker and Sussman had been friends (past tense here). The Balrog then walks Baker through his....how shall we say....evolving recollection of his meeting with Sussman.  About how Baker found himself in a bit of hot water based on previous Congressional testimony, after which Gandalf comes knocking.  And up to the point where Baker's memory was refreshed and he found the Sept.18 text that supposedly meant Sussman lied to Baker. That was Gandalf's big smoking gun.

the transcript went something like this. Q: Is there something you want to tell the jury about that recollection?  A: I gave my testimony yesterday.  Q:  And your testimony here today is already inconsistent with what you said yesterday, right?  A:  If that's what it says.  Q: When Mr. DeFellipis asked you to to refresh your memory, did he threaten you?  A: No, they never threatened me.  Q: But they told you your situation with respect to the investigation could change?  A: Yes.  Q: That instead of a being a witness you could be prosecuted?  A: Yes.  

Baker has a tissue moment and the Balrog asks if they should break for the day.  The judge says jury looks like they have your attention, let's get this done.  The Balrog finishes Baker off.  Gandalf gets a redirect but the damage is done.  His witness looks like he's had the screws put to him and everything Gandalf says just reinforces that.  to my read, whatever the Outrage Machine spits out, Gandalf lost the case on that cross.

And here's the thing.  Gandalf jumped on a plane with Billy Barr and went chasing off after Milfud's phone or something in Italy, looking for this big conspiracy.  But he never bothered to do the basic investigative steps to check Baker's phone records--just sitting in DOJ---for anything relating to his supposed star witness interactions with Sussman.  If he had, Gandalf would have found the Sept 18 text message that Baker went and found on his own to get Gandalf out of his life.  Gandalf could have found that before he charged Sussman with lying on the his meeting with Baker on  Sept. 19, 2016.  But he didn't.  Just too comfy or something.  And so in jury instructions the jury was instructed to find whether Sussman lied on the 19th, where it was just Baker's recollection vs. Sussman's.  The text on the 18th to set up the meeting was irrelevant because Gandalf did not bother to find out about it before he indicted Sussman.  Whoops.  And Gandalf agreed to those jury instructions.  Because he had too.  Because he had no game.  So all his 8 x 10 color exhibits with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back saying what each one meant counted for nothing with repect to materiality.  If the earlier text had mattered he probably could have got Sussman to take the stand.  But now he has to keep shuffling off to Bethlehem, hoping some political change comes about that allows him to be born.  Sad.

Doing lawfare to win media cycles is one thing, doing lawfare to count coup is another.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That is actually fair and balanced.  The transcript captured something of what I'm guessing was actually the pathos in the courtroom however.  So, in his cross the Balrog begins by pointing out that Baker and Sussman had been friends (past tense here). The Balrog then walks Baker through his....how shall we say....evolving recollection of his meeting with Sussman.  About how Baker found himself in a bit of hot water based on previous Congressional testimony, after which Gandalf comes knocking.  And up to the point where Baker's memory was refreshed and he found the Sept.18 text that supposedly meant Sussman lied to Baker. That was Gandalf's big smoking gun.
> 
> the transcript went something like this. Q: Is there something you want to tell the jury about that recollection?  A: I gave my testimony yesterday.  Q:  And your testimony here today is already inconsistent with what you said yesterday, right?  A:  If that's what it says.  Q: When Mr. DeFellipis asked you to to refresh your memory, did he threaten you?  A: No, they never threatened me.  Q: But they told you your situation with respect to the investigation could change?  A: Yes.  Q: That instead of a being a witness you could be prosecuted?  A: Yes.
> 
> Baker has a tissue moment and the Balrog asks if they should break for the day.  The judge says jury looks like they have your attention, let's get this done.  The Balrog finishes Baker off.  Gandalf gets a redirect but the damage is done.  His witness looks like he's had the screws put to him and everything Gandalf says just reinforces that.  to my read, whatever the Outrage Machine spits out, Gandalf lost the case on that cross.
> 
> And here's the thing.  Gandalf jumped on a plane with Billy Barr and went chasing off after Milfud's phone or something in Italy, looking for this big conspiracy.  But he never bothered to do the basic investigative steps to check Baker's phone records--just sitting in DOJ---for anything relating to his supposed star witness interactions with Sussman.  If he had, Gandalf would have found the Sept 18 text message that Baker went and found on his own to get Gandalf out of his life.  Gandalf could have found that before he charged Sussman with lying on the his meeting with Baker on  Sept. 19, 2016.  But he didn't.  Just too comfy or something.  And so in jury instructions the jury was instructed to find whether Sussman lied on the 19th, where it was just Baker's recollection vs. Sussman's.  The text on the 18th to set up the meeting was irrelevant because Gandalf did not bother to find out about it before he indicted Sussman.  Whoops.  And Gandalf agreed to those jury instructions.  Because he had too.  Because he had no game.  So all his 8 x 10 color exhibits with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back saying what each one meant counted for nothing with repect to materiality.  If the earlier text had mattered he probably could have got Sussman to take the stand.  But now he has to keep shuffling off to Bethlehem, hoping some political change comes about that allows him to be born.  Sad.
> 
> Doing lawfare to win media cycles is one thing, doing lawfare to count coup is another.


You know it all


----------



## crush

Diesel is $9.19 in LA this morning.  Are you ready?


----------



## crush

It looks like solo car accidents are on the rise and heart attacks from blood clots are as well.  93% of cases that embalmers are dealing with all had blood clots.  Now the jabbed are getting Pox's showing up on their skin and their blaming it on the Chimp, I kid you knot. My Dr. pal is saying that Monkey DNA was in the mix and the Pox's that people are getting are from those who have been juiced up.  The brain of the human has been hacked.  This is some sic and I mean pure evil what the liars and cheaters did to us and our country. More and more people people are also coming down with AIDS in record number.  The last two years blood clots have become normal, Bells Palsy is normal and healthy people dying in their sleep from Natural causes is normal now. 40% rise for life insurance claims for under 50 is nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## crush

Russia is bringing in $800,000,000 a day selling gas.  Let's see, $800,000,000 x 365= $292,000,000,000.00 in Gas sells a year and we make how much?  I get to pay $9.19 a gal for Diesel so I have to pay.  If you work in LA and have to commute to OC for work, you are paying insane amount of $$$$ just to have a job.


----------



## crush

Bay Watch is now pay watch.  Wow, I was a Junior Lifeguard in Laguna as a teen and was seriously looking at being a Guard as a career.  The pay was so low I said no.  I had no idea LA was paying so much to watch the folks swim.  I save people every week for free by the way and I'm appalled about this pay to play life guard job in Los Angeles.  The streets of LA need serious help and now I know why so many people live on the streets.  Its takes raising $11 to get $1 to a poor person 









						LA lifeguard's pay tops $500,000, investigation discovers
					

Lifeguards for the City of Los Angeles are raking in big bucks, with the highest-paid earning more than $500,000 in pay and benefits last year.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Hold it.  Billy Barr?  The flagellation guy?  You sure that wasn't Liz Cheney that said that?  Sounds like something Liz would say.  She learned political infighting at her Daddy's knee.  I bet she keeps a light gauge loaded up with 6 shot at the ready in her office.  In case she flushes a covey. Most of those octogenarian Congress critters don't have much of a pelt left anyways.  Can you imagine scalping Grassley?  Kind of like the definition of a futile endeavor.


That’s why Del Gue shaved his head. 
“this scalp isn't fit for no decent man's lodgepole.”


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why Del Gue shaved his head.
> “this scalp isn't fit for no decent man's lodgepole.”


Look what all your cheating, stealing, lying and scaming has down to our country?  Your side owns this plus the others your side bought and bribed and blackmailed.  I'm glad to see you and your Mentor's True Colors.  Sickos!!!  Sunday at 5:55pm will be my last day posting by the way.  It's been 100% fun challenging you and Gramps the last four years.  I won the big debates with you guys and I am right and I love that.  I will only lurk and check and respond to PMs.  Tell GG high for me and I truly hope he is doing ok.  He was all over this place and then vanished like a fart in the wind, just like Fact and all the others.  How many is too many Avatars Husker?  Hopefully Dom put a stop to it.  House accounts for the elites to gang up on a poor dad and his dd is werid and so lame.  I hope some day to find out who are you really are.  I would love for all of us to have a meet up at Silver Lakes Bar and just have some drinks and be done with all this.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why Del Gue shaved his head.
> “this scalp isn't fit for no decent man's lodgepole.”


Webster says, "take the scalp of (an enemy) as a battle trophy."

Google says, "
Can a person survive a scalping?
Carbon dating of skulls show evidence of scalping as early as 600 AD; some skulls show evidence of healing from scalping injuries, suggesting *at least some victims occasionally survived at least several months*.

Anyone want to take a guess on who taught the Indians how to scalp the heads of losers in a war?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

crush said:


> View attachment 13745


Premium is only .04 more so wtf, go for the best of best in gas, lol. You honestly can;t survine if your middle class in LA.  Poor people are now homeless and the Middle class is now poor.  The rich are still rich and the snobs that sold us all out still have theor job, while others have been fired for saying to Monkey Jabs.  You rich little _ _ _'s  of _ _ _ _ H _ _ make me puke.  Most of you had no clue how bad, evil, callous and cruel your side was and I will give you pass 100% if you admit it.  The others who still cheat and lie for the upper hand and still do with no remorse, karma be coming for you.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> You know it all


No. But I did read portions of the transcript I could find. anybody who wants to could do the same instead of media spin. given where things are it was a bellwether  case.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No. But I did read portions of the transcript I could find. anybody who wants to could do the same instead of media spin. given where things are it was a bellwether  case.


Spin on both sides.  The silent middle will take over some day   The TRUTH is somewhere in the middle and that's where I plan to stay.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> Cain killed Abel with a rock.  God didn't blame the rock, just saying.......
> 
> View attachment 13698



*1000 %


THIS IS WHAT KILLS FELLOW HUMANS 
ON THIS PLANET !

*


----------



## crush

thirteenknots said:


> *1000 %
> 
> 
> THIS IS WHAT KILLS FELLOW HUMANS
> ON THIS PLANET !
> 
> View attachment 13751*


The choices we make when we are angry in our brain is 1000% at fault and those want their way to be the only way.  Cain had it all.  Abel had it all. Live for 800 years and just build a family.  However, Abel did right and Cain did wrong one day.  Cain was all sad and down casted because Abel was better that day and Cain got jealous.  All Cain had to do was be better the next day but no, he get all mad, picked up a rock and hit his bro in the head and brother starts to bleed out.  He hits him some more and then just goes full fit of rage and murders the first human, his bro.  We have a mental illness problem and a jealous problem like never before in this country.  My buddy is big time Sherriff and he told me the last two years more and more criminals with mental illness have been released then ever before.  Like, really bad  I was driving in Costa Mesa and some guy was yelling and screaming at people with a cart.  A few others have set up camp by the river bank and more and more have been kicked to the curb with no job and nowhere to go.  Prison was home for so many and now they live on the streets of LA and now OC.  I help when I can but I can;t someone who is hitting the street signs, pulling his pants down and going poop and then chasing girls with knives.  We need help quickly.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Anybody got the link to that Lancet paper?  Like the actual paper. The latest masks suck, mandates suck one.  The link from the frothy media site just links back to the original CDC analysis in MMWR from 2021....which is probably not what was intended.  Didn't see anything in the Jun 1 early release on the Lancet site.  Tried Google, did pull up this just yesterday release from Proc. Natl. Acad. Very large study across six continents.  The Introduction gives a nice overview of some of the complicating factors in evaluating mask efficacy versus mandate efficacy.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119


I've made the distinction between masks versus mandates myself, but ultimately masks don't wear themselves.  For that reason, the only truly relevant factor is the efficacy of mandates.   Masks don't work as a public health measure because you can't control compliance or proper use.  Easy to blame it on the so called Murica mentality, but it really comes down to human nature, most of us are social animals.  One example, natural human reaction when your voice is muffled is to pull down your mask.  School kids, particularly in high school, were always pulling their masks down to communicate.  It's an exercise in futility to mask school children.  Simply put humans weren't designed to wear masks and only health care professionals have been trained to do so.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I've made the distinction between masks versus mandates myself, but ultimately masks don't wear themselves.  For that reason, the only truly relevant factor is the efficacy of mandates.   Masks don't work as a public health measure because you can't control compliance or proper use.  Easy to blame it on the so called Murica mentality, but it really comes down to human nature, most of us are social animals.  One example, natural human reaction when your voice is muffled is to pull down your mask.  School kids, particularly in high school, were always pulling their masks down to communicate.  It's an exercise in futility to mask school children.  Simply put humans weren't designed to wear masks and only health care professionals have been trained to do so.


You give very little weight to culture and personal decisions.  

I see a lot more masks in San Jose than I saw in San Diego.   Socially acceptable distance between people is also shorter there.  

To your example, pulling down masks is different, too.  I volunteer at my kid’s high school.  At least while I have been there, I did not see kids pulling down their masks to talk.  The culture at the school is to step outside, and then talk. 

None of this is driven by mandates.  People here have just reacted differently than people there.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I've made the distinction between masks versus mandates myself, but ultimately masks don't wear themselves.  For that reason, the only truly relevant factor is the efficacy of mandates.   Masks don't work as a public health measure because you can't control compliance or proper use.  Easy to blame it on the so called Murica mentality, but it really comes down to human nature, most of us are social animals.  One example, natural human reaction when your voice is muffled is to pull down your mask.  School kids, particularly in high school, were always pulling their masks down to communicate.  It's an exercise in futility to mask school children.  Simply put humans weren't designed to wear masks and only health care professionals have been trained to do so.


Mask and the jab served it's purpose the last two years and look what we got from that bullshit.  First fact, too many people obeyed the mandates like you and those who said, "no thanks to mask" were not allowed to buy or even sell.  Those who also said no to the Juice like me were fired or stopped from entering into establishment.  All of my pals stood around and did nothing as we were kicked to the curb and locked out of work and college.  The big test is coming this summer and the fall Watty.  I will not wear mask this time around and I will NEVER get the Juice that was tainted with AIDs, Bat Pox, Monkey Pox, Donkey Pex and other cocktails that Dr. F, Bill and his pal Jeffrey were concocting at their Labs.  Where are the Labs hiding to make this shit?  Please please tell me your done with the Juice?  I love you sir deep down and I care for you.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> None of this is *driven by mandate*s.  People here have just reacted differently than people there.


Nope, just the driven by early mandates like, "No jab and your fired." Tel A Vision and the Rey Dee Ohs tell your Elk in NoCal to blindly obey the other sheep.  San Fran is a disaster.  I drove through Central Valley and listen to radio and that place is a mess.  Normal people have lost a lot and are pissed off Dad.  Good H2O being sent to the Ocean.  This is all driven by politics and you know it.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You give very little weight to culture and personal decisions.
> 
> I see a lot more masks in San Jose than I saw in San Diego.   Socially acceptable distance between people is also shorter there.
> 
> To your example, pulling down masks is different, too.  I volunteer at my kid’s high school.  At least while I have been there, I did not see kids pulling down their masks to talk.  The culture at the school is to step outside, and then talk.
> 
> None of this is driven by mandates.  People here have just reacted differently than people there.


I'll file this under "bigger no shit".  Per capita death rate in SD County is 0.16%, per capita death rate Santa Clara County 0.12%.  Statistically irrelevant difference in terms of outcomes.  I'm sure you can exercise some mental gymnastics to rationalize relevance.

Relatively speaking SD did great with Covid particularly when you consider SD is a border town and a significant number of Mexican citizens sought treatment in San Diego.  It did overwhelm a few hospitals in our South Bay area.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'll file this under "bigger no shit".  Per capita death rate in SD County is 0.16%, per capita death rate Santa Clara County 0.12%.  Statistically irrelevant difference in terms of outcomes.  I'm sure you can exercise some mental gymnastics to rationalize relevance.
> 
> Relatively speaking SD did great with Covid particularly when you consider SD is a border town and a significant number of Mexican citizens sought treatment in San Diego.  It did overwhelm a few hospitals in our South Bay area.


You see a 25% difference in per capita death rate, and describe it as nothing?

No wonder you think masks don’t work.  You’re applying a standard which denies the existence of small improvements.

Of course, by the same logic, anti-lock brakes must be useless, because they are associated with a less than 25% decrease in overall traffic fatalities.  

 I will agree that both masks and antilock brakes require better statistics than a 2 city comparison, but neither device is useless.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You see a 25% difference in per capita death rate, and describe it as nothing?
> 
> No wonder you think masks don’t work.  You’re applying a standard which denies the existence of small improvements.
> 
> Of course, by the same logic, anti-lock brakes must be useless, because they are associated with a less than 25% decrease in overall traffic fatalities.
> 
> I will agree that both masks and antilock brakes require better statistics than a 2 city comparison, but neither device is useless.


Right on cue with your entirely predictable answer.  You apparently have no clue about the concept of materiality.  Yes, lets invoke costly policies that make a 0.04% difference in an outcome.  That's insanity.  Only in government and academia is that type of thinking possible.  In the real world you'd be fired.

"Yeah mom I got 0.16% of the questions right on my math test." 
"Jimmy that is terrible" 
"No mom, I did 25% better than Johnny"


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Right on cue with your entirely predictable answer.  You apparently have no clue about the concept of materiality.  Yes, lets invoke costly policies that make a 0.04% difference in an outcome.  That's insanity.  Only in government and academia is that type of thinking possible.  In the real world you'd be fired.
> 
> "Yeah mom I got 0.16% of the questions right on my math test."
> "Jimmy that is terrible"
> "No mom, I did 25% better than Johnny"


If you compare deaths per total population, I’m sure anti-lock brakes come in a whole lot lower than 0.04%.  By that standard, anti-lock brakes are costly and result in a truly tiny difference in outcome.

Can you address topics without comments like “you apparently have no clue” and “you’d be fired”?   It’s rude.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you compare deaths per total population, I’m sure anti-lock brakes come in a whole lot lower than 0.04%.  By that standard, anti-lock brakes are costly and result in a truly tiny difference in outcome.
> 
> Can you address topics without comments like “you apparently have no clue *you choose to completely disregard*” and “you’d *likely* be fired”?   It’s rude.


Fair criticism.  I made the changes above.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You give very little weight to culture and personal decisions.
> 
> I see a lot more masks in San Jose than I saw in San Diego.   Socially acceptable distance between people is also shorter there.
> 
> To your example, pulling down masks is different, too.  I volunteer at my kid’s high school.  At least while I have been there, I did not see kids pulling down their masks to talk.  The culture at the school is to step outside, and then talk.
> 
> None of this is driven by mandates.  People here have just reacted differently than people there.


Wow, I went out of town for a bit, locked out of my account, and now finally allowed to create a new account (I probably shouldn't have). ---And this is still going on???

Masks?  culture, personal decisions?  Funny you say all of these things.  While traveling, even the "cultures" that wear masks are wearing them wrong.

Masks?  really...kids never wear them correctly, they are not desiged for kids, and kids have to eat.  I mean, aren't these things we figured out 2 years ago? 

Your school(s) are wearing masks...still?  and you step outside to talk.  Do you stand beyond 6 feet?  talk via cell phone or megaphone?  I bet every single person in your school is hyper vaxxed.  People in San Jose stand further away from people in San Diego?  Yikes.  but have to admire that you notice the difference in distance between people with such accuracy.  

I mean..really..


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Fair criticism.  I made the changes above.


and still completley dodged the core of the argument:

A 0.04% population death rate is still quite important.  

I choose to disregard your “only 0.04%” death rate argument because it is not something you would be willing to apply in any other context.  What other 0.04% population death rate do you consider to be insignificant?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> and still completley dodged the core of the argument:
> 
> A 0.04% population death rate is still quite important.
> 
> I choose to disregard your “only 0.04%” death rate argument because it is not something you would be willing to apply in any other context.  What other 0.04% population death rate do you consider to be insignificant?


There is no point...we have totally different risk tolerances.  You think hair beads are dangerous.  You seem to believe in absolute zero in your risk assessments.  I do not, I wouldn't leave my house if I did.

If we were to design policies around a .04% risk of death factor, we couldn't do anything.  It wouldn't even be safe to even stay home.  Life comes with risk.  However, the risk factor isn't the only element to consider and that's where you have your biggest blind spot.  You also have to consider the costs of the other negative consequences.  Anti-lock brakes aren't a relevant comparison because anti-lock brakes have no material (and likely no) negative consequences other than additional $.  Whereas masks do.  The biggest in my mind is the false sense of security they provide (or as advertised to provide), which encourages Covid positive individuals to go out in public because "mask works".  The development consequences of interrupted child development is also concerning (not to mention the difference in death rate between mask wearing children and not masking wearing children is many times less than 0.04%).

You come from a perspective that Covid should be our biggest concern in terms of these health policies.  While others may understand that the risk from the negative consequences of some of these policies pose a much greater risk.   We shouldn't all have to indulge the lowest common denominator when it comes to acceptance of risk.  I haven't seen anything in the Constitution that guaranties a risk free life.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> There is no point...we have totally different risk tolerances.  You think hair beads are dangerous.  You seem to believe in absolute zero in your risk assessments.  I do not, I wouldn't leave my house if I did.
> 
> If we were to design policies around a .04% risk of death factor, we couldn't do anything.  It wouldn't even be safe to even stay home.  Life comes with risk.  However, the risk factor isn't the only element to consider and that's where you have your biggest blind spot.  You also have to consider the costs of the other negative consequences.  Anti-lock brakes aren't a relevant comparison because anti-lock brakes have no material (and likely no) negative consequences other than additional $.  Whereas masks do.  The biggest in my mind is the false sense of security they provide (or as advertised to provide), *which encourages Covid positive individuals to go out in public because "mask works".*  The development consequences of interrupted child development is also concerning (not to mention the difference in death rate between mask wearing children and not masking wearing children is many times less than 0.04%).
> 
> You come from a perspective that Covid should be our biggest concern in terms of these health policies.  While others may understand that the risk from the negative consequences of some of these policies pose a much greater risk.   We shouldn't all have to indulge the lowest common denominator when it comes to acceptance of risk.  I haven't seen anything in the Constitution that guaranties a risk free life.


Who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?  

I have never heard anyone, anywhere, make that argument.  Every message I have heard, right or left, is that people should isolate while sick.

If you think this opinion is common, can you point to anyone who holds it?


----------



## Lion Eyes

Don't forget to wash your hands with soap......OFTEN!!


----------



## Desert Hound

Happened again said:


> Your school(s) are wearing masks...still? and you step outside to talk.


I find this...the fear fascinating in a sad way. 

It really says it all.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?
> 
> I have never heard anyone, anywhere, make that argument.  Every message I have heard, right or left, is that people should isolate while sick.
> 
> If you think this opinion is common, can you point to anyone who holds it?


So he gives you a bunch of reasons how irrelevant .04 is and you decide to question "who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?" Really...is that because you realize his other points are valid, so you try to focus on the sarcastic? 

I do give you credit though , you do not give up easily...its a slow burn for you lol


----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?
> 
> I have never heard anyone, anywhere, make that argument.  Every message I have heard, right or left, is that people should isolate while sick.
> 
> If you think this opinion is common, can you point to anyone who holds it?


uhhhh.  when it seemed to serve somone's (or a particular group's) best interest.  The bastion and repository of science - the cdc..



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/03/cdc-covid-19-vote-election/


----------



## Happened again

soccersc said:


> So he gives you a bunch of reasons how irrelevant .04 is and you decide to question "who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?" Really...is that because you realize his other points are valid, so you try to focus on the sarcastic?
> 
> I do give you credit though , you do not give up easily...its a slow burn for you lol


I would compare it to a nervous twitch.


----------



## crush

Jab News: 
*Biden admin says COVID vaccine may be available to children under 5 by late June*
*Pfizer requested that the FDA approve its three-shot COVID-19 vaccine for children younger than 5 on Wednesday*


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> uhhhh.  when it seemed to serve somone's (or a particular group's) best interest.  The bastion and repository of science - the cdc..
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/03/cdc-covid-19-vote-election/


I see nothing in your link which claims masks make it generally acceptable to break quarantine.

At most, people reading that article will think that election day doesn't count.

Want to try again?  Who, if anyone, is arguing that masks make it ok to skip quarantine?


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> So he gives you a bunch of reasons how irrelevant .04 is and you decide to question "who on earth encourages covid positive individuals to go out in public?" Really...is that because you realize his other points are valid, so you try to focus on the sarcastic?
> 
> I do give you credit though , you do not give up easily...its a slow burn for you lol


His other points are trash.  A death rate of .04% works out to 1200 deaths in SD county.  Most people do not find that "irrelevant."


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> His other points are trash.  A death rate of .04% works out to 1200 deaths in SD county.  Most people do not find that "irrelevant."


He is concentrating on the 0.04% difference without acknowledging that 0.16% is 33% worse than 0.12%.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> His other points are trash.  A death rate of .04% works out to 1200 deaths in SD county.  Most people do not find that "irrelevant."


Like I've said a number of times I could really give a rat's ass about mask requirements for adults.

Under your and Espola's "logic" Santa Clara has had a horrific results when it comes to the death of children from Covid.  Santa Clara has 100% more deaths than San Diego and Santa Clara has over a 50% smaller population.  So maybe the kids weren't wearing the masks as well as you thought in your county.

And for the 100th time you can't measure success of health policies based solely on Covid outcomes.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Like I've said a number of times I could really give a rat's ass about mask requirements for adults.
> 
> Under your and Espola's "logic" Santa Clara has had a horrific results when it comes to the death of children from Covid.  Santa Clara has 100% more deaths than San Diego and Santa Clara has over a 50% smaller population.  So maybe the kids weren't wearing the masks as well as you thought in your county.
> 
> And for the 100th time you can't measure success of health policies based solely on Covid outcomes.


Nice try.

C-


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Nice try.
> 
> C-


I feel lucky I caught you in a generous mood.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Like I've said a number of times I could really give a rat's ass about mask requirements for adults.
> 
> Under your and Espola's "logic" Santa Clara has had a horrific results when it comes to the death of children from Covid.  Santa Clara has 100% more deaths than San Diego and Santa Clara has over a 50% smaller population.  So maybe the kids weren't wearing the masks as well as you thought in your county.
> 
> And for the 100th time you can't measure success of health policies based solely on Covid outcomes.


Have a great night, watfly.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> I see nothing in your link which claims masks make it generally acceptable to break quarantine.
> 
> At most, people reading that article will think that election day doesn't count.
> 
> Want to try again?  Who, if anyone, is arguing that masks make it ok to skip quarantine?


Why doesn't election day count? The CDC says it's ok to skip quarantine to vote.  See how silly all of this is. 

Follows the same logic that masks work until they stop working..like taking them off to eat and drink on an airplane.  Or walking through a restaurant with a mask on just to sit down and take your mask off. 

"Can voters who test positive for the coronavirus still come to the polls on Tuesday?
Yes, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which on Sunday published new guidelines noting that sick voters still have the right to cast a ballot.
“Voters have the right to vote, regardless of whether they are sick or in quarantine,” the CDC says on their website. Under federal law, turning someone away from a polling site is considered illegal and an act of voter intimidation."


----------



## crush

Good Morning Natives, I got up early because I only have three more days to try and help you guys.  I spoke from my heart and I will finish from the heart.  My Doctor pal from Stanford told me some crazy stories about some Docs that are bought and sold soul for money.  Gee, go figure.........


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Villagers talking some Gender and answering the tough questions.  I think it's wise to ask others around the world if a man can become a woman because he wants to and then compete in the Games.

https://rumble.com/v173q8f-im-guessing-these-villagers-would-vote-republican.html?mref=2hzb1&mrefc=5


----------



## crush

Any of you guys at TRUTH. yet?  Serious questions because I am and some serious stuff is flying around today.  Some sic photos.  If Espola really wants to know wtf is going on and what's on those lap tops from hell, and the going on's at that Island, then it is now dripping and I think starting to pour out fast today.  This is not funny anymore.  I saw some pics of Adam Shift and they look real but with photo technology of today, I not sure so I shouldn;t post on here and get Husker all worked up.  I think Husker, Adam and Espola could play dress up together.......lol.  June 5th is my special jubilee day and my Goodbye and a day for me to forgive others, forgive those who owe me and forgive myself and others who have hurt me.  I feel so alive today and so ready to serve my Fellow Americans after this war is over.  My last post will be June 5th, 5:55pm.  It will be a beautiful song.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

FYI fellas and Grace T.  I like to lighten the pain for all of us with a little humor as well.  Most of you were in denial and that's ok.  The TRUTH is now coming out on TRUTH.


----------



## crush

I am almost gone you guys. I will leave with a meme bang and I will shout to the roof top my TRUTH!!!


----------



## crush

This is how I have felt trying to sound the alarm to all of you over the years.  None of my pals took my advice about the jab.  In fact, most were first in line for the Jabber Juice.  I now have pals of pals who have died in their sleep and no one is saying a thing about how they died and why they died.  My pal with blood clot thinks its normal.  "Were sad to announce the passing of _____________ _____________, age 50.  He did this and that and he will be surley missed.  Send donation to_______________________."  Also, solo car accidents and people driving off the side of the road is happing at an alarming rate. I online all day and I read the fake and the real news.  On my way back from Shasta, one guy "feel asleep" at the wheel and drove off the highway and died.  His passenger said he just went to sleep for no reason.  They were talking and then he went to sleep and then died.  The car rolled over and the driver side was smashed in.  Of course the fake news said the dude fell asleep at the wheel from a long drive.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> Why doesn't election day count? The CDC says it's ok to skip quarantine to vote.  See how silly all of this is.
> 
> Follows the same logic that masks work until they stop working..like taking them off to eat and drink on an airplane.  Or walking through a restaurant with a mask on just to sit down and take your mask off.
> 
> "Can voters who test positive for the coronavirus still come to the polls on Tuesday?
> Yes, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which on Sunday published new guidelines noting that sick voters still have the right to cast a ballot.
> “Voters have the right to vote, regardless of whether they are sick or in quarantine,” the CDC says on their website. Under federal law, turning someone away from a polling site is considered illegal and an act of voter intimidation."


I never said CDC was correct that infected people should vote in person.  But CDC’s bad election day advice is not an example of someone encouraging infected people to put on a mask and generally go about their normal lives.

As far as I can tell, no one in the country was giving that advice.  The message, left or right, was that you should stay home if you test positive.  

If you search long enough, you might find someone on twitter who thought masks were a substitute for quarantine.  But it will be a fringe view within fringe views.  Certainly not enough to make the claim that masks, in general, cause people to skip quarantine.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I never said CDC was correct that infected people should vote in person.  But CDC’s bad election day advice is not an example of someone encouraging infected people to put on a mask and generally go about their normal lives.
> 
> As far as I can tell, no one in the country was giving that advice.  The message, left or right, was that you should stay home if you test positive.
> 
> If you search long enough, you might find someone on twitter who thought masks were a substitute for quarantine.  But it will be a fringe view within fringe views.  Certainly not enough to make the claim that masks, in general, cause people to skip quarantine.


THE WHOLE THING WAS A SCAM.  BTW, did you get a look at Adams pics that are circling the web?  It now makes so much sense why he was the lead in the Russia Hoax.  The last 6 years have been crazy to look back on.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> As far as I can tell, no one in the country was giving that advice. The message, left or right, was that you should stay home if you test positive.


Nope. Your memory is short. 

When it came to BLM the medical community said it was ok to go out and protest and hang out in large crowds. That was the summer of 2020. 

We had 100s of posts on here about how logically that didnt make sense. On one hand it was OK to go out in large crowds. On the other hand the same people encouraging that...wanted biz and schools closed.


----------



## crush

One big issue I see over at Truth Social, is that everyone who does a TRUTH thinks their TRUTH is the real TRUTH.  It's the Wild West over at Truth and everyone is presenting their TRUTHs.  Devin said that all Bots will be cleaned out but that's not happening right now.  Millions just showed up.  I'm getting trolled by a Husker type.  The first week is was all the hard core right wing conservatives having a hay day with the controls and the narrative. No push back until now.  Now that Espola and Husker types and trolls and bots are massing their armies on Truth, the place is on fire now.  I will say it's better to fight each other online then in the street.  I can do this all day....lol.


----------



## crush

Peter Narvarro just got indicted for Jan 6th I guess.  I said 6 years ago to Espola and his Elks that arresting, spying, cheating and stealing from one side is wrong and if the left pulls that stunt, it's not going to go well.  They did and boy did they.  I said each side will arrest each other then and that is the beginning of a war.  A war that never really ended and was only on pause since 1946.  Depending on the judge and the jury of your peers or a nice pardon from your favorite President, justice is not served in this country.  98% of all cases get settled and no justice, just pay to play the lawyers who get a very nice cut for dealing with all the shit and we get no justice.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Nope. Your memory is short.
> 
> When it came to BLM the medical community said it was ok to go out and protest and hang out in large crowds. That was the summer of 2020.
> 
> We had 100s of posts on here about how logically that didnt make sense. On one hand it was OK to go out in large crowds. On the other hand the same people encouraging that...wanted biz and schools closed.


Not sure what your point is.  I was convinced that BLM was behaving irresponsibly and that the left media was ignoring it.  I remain convinced of the same.  So do you.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Good Morning Natives, I got up early because I only have three more days to try and help you guys.  I spoke from my heart and I will finish from the heart.  My Doctor pal from Stanford told me some crazy stories about some Docs that are bought and sold soul for money.  Gee, go figure.........
> 
> 
> View attachment 13756


I think we need to be careful to not lump Fauci in with actual medical doctors that treat patients.  He is a scientist that has always worked in a lab.  I trust someone who are actually treating patients and the disease way more than someone who is looking at it through a microscope.  Our frontline doctors were heroes during Covid and were way more honest then the media darlings.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I think we need to be careful to not lump Fauci in with actual medical doctors that treat patients.  He is a scientist that has always worked in a lab.  I trust someone who are actually treating patients and the disease way more than someone who is looking at it through a microscope.  Our frontline doctors were heroes during Covid and were way more honest then the media darlings.


ER Docs, yes.  My wife worked for a pill pusher.  Great Doc but only gave pills.  My wife got free lunches every week and dude got kickbacks from the Big Pharma.  Not all Dcos are car racers bro but the one's that are, they need to be transparent.  The news is owned by these companies.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I think we need to be careful to not lump Fauci in with actual medical doctors that treat patients.  He is a scientist that has always worked in a lab.  I trust someone who are actually treating patients and the disease way more than someone who is looking at it through a microscope.  Our frontline doctors were heroes during Covid and were way more honest then the media darlings.


What were the “frontline doctors” “more honest about”?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> His other points are trash.  A death rate of .04% works out to 1200 deaths in SD county.  Most people do not find that "irrelevant."


so what number is acceptable? It can’t be 0 because that will never happen, people die…so I am curious what you think would be a relevant number


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> What were the “frontline doctors” “more honest about”?


Covid risk factors and pros and cons of vaccine.


----------



## crush

*"To the idiot saying I am setting a terrible example [for refusing to get the vaccine]—I had the virus already! I already have antibodies. Why would I take the vaccine again?*

*Over there at Pfizer, it’s really clear in the contract, "We don’t take responsibility for any side effects." If you turn into a crocodile, it’s your problem!"*


Guess who said this?  Hint, he is a President of a country.......lol


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I've made the distinction between masks versus mandates myself, but ultimately masks don't wear themselves.  For that reason, the only truly relevant factor is the efficacy of mandates.   Masks don't work as a public health measure ...human nature...


I largely agree with what you say, although I think defining what "work" means, and for whom, is key.  Mask wearing and mandate efficacy are linked variables. For the people that do these studies on increasingly ginormous data sets (and they don't do them so we can steal a sentence or two and beat each other upside the head with them) that's what they want to do.  Defining "work" within the models is key to doing that.  For most of these large studies that have been flagged on this thread of late, as I understand it (and it's not my thing; you pop the hood on the underlying stats on these huge data sets and its like looking under the hood of a Ford Mach E) the assumption has been that "work" must mean time of mandate = contemporaenous hysteresis in cases, hospitilizations, whatever.  But it turns out depending on how you cast your net in some cases that's true, and so mandates work.  In other's, as per what you say, not so much.  What subset within a larger culture is being measured? Or just everybody within an aribitrary group? That appear to matter for "mandates working". Not too surprising really. People being people. And if there is a perceived crisis people band together with those they trust. With emergent C-viruses we'll be in the same place again soon enough and we'll find out if any of this academic appreciation of granularity matters to decision makers. 

Here's an anedoctal example. My kid, who just graduated HS, was an IB student.  The thing about IB exams is if you miss them, well you miss them and that sucks.  The IB kids, who are a small subset of the larger high school, got together and agreed to keep wearing NPI. Like their own mini-mandate. Prom came and after that there was a sizable omicron outbreak (probably vanilla flavor from the sound of it) at the school.  With the exception of 1 kid, all the IB kids were able to take their exams. Coincidence?  Could be.  Cause/effect.  Could be.  Get a dataset in the millions and drill down into groupings and statistically you can start saying things.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Peter Narvarro just got indicted for Jan 6th I guess.  I said 6 years ago to Espola and his Elks that arresting, spying, cheating and stealing from one side is wrong and if the left pulls that stunt, it's not going to go well.  They did and boy did they.  I said each side will arrest each other then and that is the beginning of a war.  A war that never really ended and was only on pause since 1946.  Depending on the judge and the jury of your peers or a nice pardon from your favorite President, justice is not served in this country.  98% of all cases get settled and no justice, just pay to play the lawyers who get a very nice cut for dealing with all the shit and we get no justice.


Elks?


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Elks?


I just put Elks because it came from my brain and I remember avatars trying to warn Espola and his crew that arresting and spying on your opponent is not right.  That was for years ago. They arrested and handcuffed Peter at the airport. Cheating, stealing and then arresting those you disagree with is for losers and that is what you and so many at the forum have become, losers.


----------



## crush

Hey guys, I have today and tomorrow and then I will not post on the forum.  Only PMs. We are now entering into a new phase with these losers and cheaters.  I want thank everyone who has provided me with much needed information in my pursuit of the TRUTH.  We have known liars and cheaters right here at the forum.  Lie to little girls, cheat and lie and then steal dreams from girls whose fathers don't want to play the pay to play game because pay to play is only good for the one paying and the Doc.  Pay more in order to get dd to the next of the pay to play soccer.  Yuk and yikes and no thank you.  So many sharks and just bad dudes in the pool.  Clean the pool, get rid of bad Docs and coaches and please and I mean please get some good woman coaches to take over the girls sport. It really is controlled by some Dicks!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

We have endured together some rough shit over the last four years.  It's been an honor to serve with all of you in this war.  The Liberal Liars have cheated, spied, scammed, divided, ruined, stolen and sold their souls and country out for the almighty dollar   Some will die for dollar because they worship dollar over the TRUTH.  I leave you with some advice.  I will be posting a lot of memes until my last post tomorrow at 5:55pm.  Again, if anyone has gold information regarding you know what, please PM me.  The last two weeks some awesome dads have stepped forward with serious information.  We need a healthy sport for girls and soccer is perfect.

1.  If Bill Gates is involved, avoid it
2.  If joe say's it's true, it's false
3.  If the CDC, FDA and Dad4 say it's safe, it's dangerous
4.  If the media or Espola agree, it's a lie


----------



## crush

I found an old picture from the old days of Grandpa Espola jumping over his Sunshine at the beach back in the day.  I will not miss you guys and I will lurk to laugh and giggle.  I love you both and 100% forgive you.  I'm glad the three of us have a great sense of humor and I glad you both can take it hard on the chin.


----------



## crush

*The old guard and system is breaking a part because I told you all it would years ago.  You all laughed at me, some ignored me, some shunned me and some even threaten me.....lol.  Hear more advice if you can read and feel at the same time.  Get ready for a very long, hot, hungry, angry, full of rage and dangerous Summer, all brought to you buy The Lying Libs and their Cheating Chumps WHO hated Trump so much, they spied, cheated and stole and then pinned it on the one they spied, cheated and stole from.  Wow, that is some crazy ass shit!!!  The rest of us are all stuck in the middle and the middle is WHO doen't like and WHO would like them gone so the WHO and the Globalist ((same as Elitist)) can rule the world.  What a movie.  It's come down to a war, Patriots vs the Globalist.  Get the popcorn out and be safe everyone but pay attention.  This new phase is where your choice will matter a lot and who you will spend the rest of your time with and maybe your next chance at birth and to do better.  Many of you at this time will not stay and play for free because you think pay to play is good.  Trust me, stay and play for free.  This place will rock!!! *


----------



## crush

Thoughts on this?  We all know people by now that fit into one of these three phases.  The news from my own clans of pals is not good I'm sad to say.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Nope. Your memory is short.
> 
> When it came to BLM the medical community said it was ok to go out and protest and hang out in large crowds. That was the summer of 2020.
> 
> We had 100s of posts on here about how logically that didnt make sense. On one hand it was OK to go out in large crowds. On the other hand the same people encouraging that...wanted biz and schools closed.


There is something seriously wrong with our society when we made Covid exceptions for adults to protest and riot, and not for educating our children.  That's f'ed up.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> There is something seriously wrong with our society when we made Covid exceptions for adults to protest and riot, and not for educating our children.  That's f'ed up.


That is tru and just wait until summer comes.  Bro, these losers had a chance to give up but they decided to let the ship sink because of their ego, pride and vanity.


----------



## crush

Look at the Royal Jubilee pictures coming out of London.  Look closely and see if you see what I see.


----------



## crush

Look familiar?  Long live the Queen!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




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## crush




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## crush




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## crush




----------



## crush

The Fauci Papers are dripping out on TRUTH right now.  Wowza!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Douglas Murray on non-gendered sports: We’re watching ‘the end of women’s sports’
					

Fox News contributor Douglas Murray rips the belief that we won't be a "free and equal society" until biological men stand atop podiums in every non-gendered sport.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

No one is talking jab anymore where I live.  I brought it up the other day and I was looked at by everyone like I was bringing up the plague.  Last year, it's all people talked about.  "Put your mask on."  "Did you get the jab?"  Now, I ask people, "How many jabs did you end up taking?"  One guy thought I was rude to ask that.  I asked my other pal if the real reason he took all the jabs and some was to keep his job and status and he walked a way.  Today at 5:55pm will be my last day talking to you all of publicly.  You can PM all you want.  I mean no ill will and I appreciate everyone putting up with my nonsense.  I am so glad I went all natural three years ago, right before the bat plague came to our shores.  The country is on edge.  I live in peace.  I will NOT inject anything in my arms.  I believe if people want arms to protect themselves and their family, I'm ok with that and want that for everyone to feel safe.  This is what we all get when fear leads the way.  Now love will get it's turn to lead and it will be amazing.  It takes time but love will rule the day.  I love you all and hope nothing but the best for you and your families.  Pay to play is officially over today, June 5th at 5:55pm pst.  Time to celebrate good times.  Time forgive others their debt and we also need some forgiveness for our debts.  I don;t know how all the wealth will be distributed, but I will say we all need a year off to figure out life after what we all are witnessing.  Men and women we thought were good will turn out to be liars.  Those you hated will become your new hero.  It's time.  Let the Jubilee begin.  I forgive all of you by the way and I want all of you to have as many mulligans as you see fit to be a better lover.  Love is the only way.  Speak the TRUTH to each other in love.  Be honest and let it all out and see where the TRUTH is.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Time to release the seals?


----------



## crush

Why do people lie all the time?

For many liars, the reasons are complicated. Sometimes it's *to protect the liar from being punished, or to protect someone else from punishment*. The liar might try to avoid being embarrassed, to hide from an awkward situation, or to simply have others think better of the person telling all the lies all the time. Liar Liar is no more either.  New a way to play is coming.  Trust the plan and follow the TRUTH.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Nocal is almost at $10.  Wow!!!  









						Gas prices soar near $10 in this part of the country
					

As gas prices hit record highs, Northern California drivers are paying almost $10 per gallon.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## crush

I'm selling TRUTH. drops.  PM me for details.  One drop of love is all you need to trip out and see the TRUTH.  I will sure miss of you.  The greatest compliment has been from my bff @kickingandscreaming.  "I am authentic : ) What more can a pal ask for then for another pal to be real, you know, honest, open and transparent.  I have much to get to after todays celebration jubilee.  Please do not hesitate to PM me.  I will be gone for a week so I wont be able to read all my messages until I get back.  I have a smart phone that knows how to block what I don't need anymore.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I warned you all and so did others.


----------



## crush

Bye Everyone   No more public crush. It's for the best. I am praying for all of you, even those who don;t like me very much like Coach Espola and his Sunshine.  I leave you all with this song that kind of tells my story with the forum and youth soccer.


----------



## watfly

Some Dems are starting to see the light regarding school closures.  Good for him, but I wish it would have come much sooner.








						Michael Bloomberg says America's public school system is failing
					

Former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg described the public education system as 'failing' in an op-ed titled 'A Wake Up Call for Public Education' that was published on Thursday.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Some Dems are starting to see the light regarding school closures.  Good for him, but I wish it would have come much sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Bloomberg says America's public school system is failing
> 
> 
> Former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg described the public education system as 'failing' in an op-ed titled 'A Wake Up Call for Public Education' that was published on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


 Bloomberg has been independent of teacher’s unions for quite some time.  I wouldn’t use him as a benchmark for Dem thinking. 

 He’s someone would do a good job in office, but could not win a primary in either party.


----------



## soccersc

watfly said:


> Some Dems are starting to see the light regarding school closures.  Good for him, but I wish it would have come much sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Bloomberg says America's public school system is failing
> 
> 
> Former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg described the public education system as 'failing' in an op-ed titled 'A Wake Up Call for Public Education' that was published on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


I am waiting for the article that says America's parents are failing...crazy how so many kids are raised these days!!!

At the doctor the other day and a mom was with her two boys in the waiting room...kids were running in circles for at least 10 minutes screaming and chasing each other around the room...this lady finally got so bothered she asked the mom if she can give the kids her phone so they would stop running around, the mom said okay and so the lady gave the kidds her phone....so the kids do not get disciplined for acting wild but they get a devise to keep them entertained instead of just sitting there patiently waiting their turn...its going to be an interesting world in another 20-30 years


----------



## watfly

soccersc said:


> I am waiting for the article that says America's parents are failing...crazy how so many kids are raised these days!!!
> 
> At the doctor the other day and a mom was with her two boys in the waiting room...kids were running in circles for at least 10 minutes screaming and chasing each other around the room...this lady finally got so bothered she asked the mom if she can give the kids her phone so they would stop running around, the mom said okay and so the lady gave the kidds her phone....so the kids do not get disciplined for acting wild but they get a devise to keep them entertained instead of just sitting there patiently waiting their turn...its going to be an interesting world in another 20-30 years


The best schools are always those with parent involvement and support, which also should start at home.


----------



## soccersc

watfly said:


> The best schools are always those with parent involvement and support, which also should start at home.


So so true!!!


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> Wow, I went out of town for a bit, locked out of my account, and now finally allowed to create a new account (I probably shouldn't have). ---And this is still going on???
> 
> Masks?  culture, personal decisions?  Funny you say all of these things.  While traveling, even the "cultures" that wear masks are wearing them wrong.
> 
> Masks?  really...kids never wear them correctly, they are not desiged for kids, and kids have to eat.  I mean, aren't these things we figured out 2 years ago?
> 
> Your school(s) are wearing masks...still?  and you step outside to talk.  Do you stand beyond 6 feet?  talk via cell phone or megaphone?  I bet every single person in your school is hyper vaxxed.  People in San Jose stand further away from people in San Diego?  Yikes.  but have to admire that you notice the difference in distance between people with such accuracy.
> 
> I mean..really..


What was the name on the account you were "locked out of"?


----------



## soccersc

I wonder how many of these studies we will see coming out over the next decade 



			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358661859_Towards_the_emergence_of_a_new_form_of_the_neurodegenerative_Creutzfeldt-Jakob_disease_Twenty_six_cases_of_CJD_declared_a_few_days_after_a_COVID-19_vaccine_Jab


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> What was the name on the account you were "locked out of"?


Will having that knowledge help you better engage?


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> I wonder how many of these studies we will see coming out over the next decade
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358661859_Towards_the_emergence_of_a_new_form_of_the_neurodegenerative_Creutzfeldt-Jakob_disease_Twenty_six_cases_of_CJD_declared_a_few_days_after_a_COVID-19_vaccine_Jab


I see the word "vaccine" in quotes and use of the highly-technical term "jab" -- did crush write this?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> Will having that knowledge help you better engage?


I can understand if you don't want to say.  Many people here have abandoned accounts and started over.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> I can understand if you don't want to say.  Many people here have abandoned accounts and started over.


what does that have to do with anything?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Happened again said:


> what does that have to do with anything?


This is the question that should be asked for every response he has.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> I wonder how many of these studies we will see coming out over the next decade
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358661859_Towards_the_emergence_of_a_new_form_of_the_neurodegenerative_Creutzfeldt-Jakob_disease_Twenty_six_cases_of_CJD_declared_a_few_days_after_a_COVID-19_vaccine_Jab


I tend to think not so many since Montagnier, the most senior author on what you posted, passed in February of this year.  I suspect the reviewers will go "data elements are based on prion sequence gazing, conclusions go beyond that, fix it".  And the question will be whether any of the other authors can do that.

It is a sad thing, to me at any rate, that so much C19 contrarianism, from Montagnier, to Mikovits, to Malone, arises from or is deritive to grudges born out of cred and $ associated with tensions between Montagier in France on one side and Gallo and (indirectly) Fauci in the USA on the other about discovery of HIV in the 1980s.  It is a complex story not many will know. And those fault lines have been exploited in a remarkably adroit fashion. The principles are kicking off now, however, so it will fade away.


----------



## Desert Hound

"Since late February, *Americans who have gotten a booster shot appear to be testing positive for COVID-19 more often than those vaccinated without the extra shot, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data.*

This is based on numbers up until the week of April 23, which is the most recently released CDC data comparing case rates of those boosted, vaccinated and unvaccinated against the coronavirus. Ultimately, the numbers, which are updated monthly, showed those unvaccinated had the highest case rates overall.

Meanwhile, about 119 out of 100,000 boosted individuals tested positive for COVID-19 during the week of April 23, according to CDC data. In comparison, 56 out of 100,000 individuals vaccinated with only a primary series tested positive.

But why are the case rates higher for boosted individuals than for those vaccinated without a booster?"



			Why are boosted Americans testing positive for COVID more than those without extra shot?


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> "Since late February, *Americans who have gotten a booster shot appear to be testing positive for COVID-19 more often than those vaccinated without the extra shot, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data.*
> 
> This is based on numbers up until the week of April 23, which is the most recently released CDC data comparing case rates of those boosted, vaccinated and unvaccinated against the coronavirus. Ultimately, the numbers, which are updated monthly, showed those unvaccinated had the highest case rates overall.
> 
> Meanwhile, about 119 out of 100,000 boosted individuals tested positive for COVID-19 during the week of April 23, according to CDC data. In comparison, 56 out of 100,000 individuals vaccinated with only a primary series tested positive.
> 
> But why are the case rates higher for boosted individuals than for those vaccinated without a booster?"
> 
> 
> 
> Why are boosted Americans testing positive for COVID more than those without extra shot?


 <<
“Individuals receiving boosters may be more likely to have their cases counted,” Hanage said.

Hanage said this is because “just in being boosted, they are displaying ‘health seeking’ behavior” and “they are more likely to have contact with healthcare and get a test that ends up in official stats.”
>>


----------



## espola

espola said:


> <<
> “Individuals receiving boosters may be more likely to have their cases counted,” Hanage said.
> 
> Hanage said this is because “just in being boosted, they are displaying ‘health seeking’ behavior” and “they are more likely to have contact with healthcare and get a test that ends up in official stats.”
> >>


Baldref thinks people getting sick is funny.


----------



## Desert Hound

Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> <<
> “Individuals receiving boosters may be more likely to have their cases counted,” Hanage said.
> 
> Hanage said this is because “just in being boosted, they are displaying ‘health seeking’ behavior” and “they are more likely to have contact with healthcare and get a test that ends up in official stats.”
> >>



If you click on CDC link in the news blurb cited earlier the overall data profile during delta and omicron looks like this.  It's a similar overall case reduction with vaxx to what's been observed, using different tracking methodologies, in the UK.  If you look at where the blue and black lines come together in the trough during April that's what the fuss is about.


----------



## MicPaPa

espola said:


> Baldref thinks people getting sick is funny.


Drama queen.


----------



## N00B

Desert Hound said:


> "Since late February, *Americans who have gotten a booster shot appear to be testing positive for COVID-19 more often than those vaccinated without the extra shot, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data.*


It would seem to me that this is a result of the same age based stratification of risk generally inherent with COVID.  Ie those more likely to qualify for booster shots (one or more) are older and more likely to have immunity fade just like flu shots. Hence, more likely to get COVID post vaccination… not a vaccination issue or flaw, just ‘the human condition’ of getting older.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

The Covid death rate for white Americans has recently exceeded the rates for Black, Latino and Asian Americans.

But these large racial gaps in vaccination have not continued — and as a result, neither have the gaps in Covid death rates.​

Instead, Covid’s racial gaps have narrowed and, more recently, even flipped. Over the past year, the Covid death rate for white Americans has been 14 percent higher than the rate for Black Americans and 72 percent higher than the Latino rate, according to the latest C.D.C. data.​


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Covid death rate for white Americans has recently exceeded the rates for Black, Latino and Asian Americans.
> 
> But these large racial gaps in vaccination have not continued — and as a result, neither have the gaps in Covid death rates.​
> 
> Instead, Covid’s racial gaps have narrowed and, more recently, even flipped. Over the past year, the Covid death rate for white Americans has been 14 percent higher than the rate for Black Americans and 72 percent higher than the Latino rate, according to the latest C.D.C. data.​


How about the Age and Obesity factor, has that changed?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How about the Age and Obesity factor, has that changed?


Makes too much sense huh? Kinda scary.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Makes too much sense huh? Kinda scary.


That’s not an answer……

To your point, no.  It’s not scary at all.  My 80 yr old father with a heart condition just rolled thru Covid as if it were a seasonal cold.  He got the first round of shots back in 2021.  Your point?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s not an answer……
> 
> To your point, no.  It’s not scary at all.  My 80 yr old father with a heart condition just rolled thru Covid as if it were a seasonal cold.  He got the first round of shots back in 2021.  Your point?


Glad your dad is well.  One case can’t really prove more than that.  Otherwise, you’re making the same mistake as the NYT made in its coverage.  “I heard about this one guy” is not the same as an accurate reflection of overall risk.

Husker was pointing out that the vaccine seems to be working, among those who take it.  As a result, when you get a demographic shift in who is unvaccinated, you also get a shift in who is dying from covid.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Glad your dad is well.  One case can’t really prove more than that.  Otherwise, you’re making the same mistake as the NYT made in its coverage.  “I heard about this one guy” is not the same as an accurate reflection of overall risk.
> 
> Husker was pointing out that the vaccine seems to be working, among those who take it.  As a result, when you get a demographic shift in who is unvaccinated, you also get a shift in who is dying from covid.


That “shift” based on racial demographics doesn’t change the statistics on specific vulnerabilities that account for the vast majority of Covid deaths.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s not an answer……
> 
> To your point, no.  It’s not scary at all.  My 80 yr old father with a heart condition just rolled thru Covid as if it were a seasonal cold.  He got the first round of shots back in 2021.  Your point?


The study, the fact that now that minorities are on board with getting vaxxed the numbers have tilted the other way. Now it’s those fed a steady diet of fear and distrust that are feeling the pain.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Glad your dad is well.  One case can’t really prove more than that.  Otherwise, you’re making the same mistake as the NYT made in its coverage.  “I heard about this one guy” is not the same as an accurate reflection of overall risk.
> 
> Husker was pointing out that the vaccine seems to be working, among those who take it.  As a result, when you get a demographic shift in who is unvaccinated, you also get a shift in who is dying from covid.


Exactly.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That “shift” based on racial demographics doesn’t change the statistics on specific vulnerabilities that account for the vast majority of Covid deaths.


Yes, the specific vulnerabilities, such as being old, overweight, or unvaccinated.

The presence of one item in that list does not negate the importance of the other two.  The data is rock solid on all three at this point.


----------



## watfly

Who would have thought that fear mongering and isolation would have impacted our children?









						Pandemic babies are behind after years of stress, isolation affected brain development
					

Kids born in the COVID-19 era lag in certain skills and are more prone to challenging behaviors. Experts say their parents need more support.




					www.usatoday.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Husker was pointing out that the vaccine seems to be working, among those who take it.


Crush is gone. Who is arguing otherwise?

Also, what is the source? He didn't respond to it if it was already posted.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Who would have thought that fear mongering and isolation would have impacted our children?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pandemic babies are behind after years of stress, isolation affected brain development
> 
> 
> Kids born in the COVID-19 era lag in certain skills and are more prone to challenging behaviors. Experts say their parents need more support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


Gee, who could have possibly predicted that?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Gee, who could have possibly predicted that?


I wonder what their future of doing active shooter drills will do to them? I thought righties saw all this psychological stuff as namby-pamby bs? Parenting, parenting, parenting.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder what their future of doing active shooter drills will do to them? I thought righties saw all this psychological stuff as namby-pamby bs? Parenting, parenting, parenting.


You thought?
You fucking lying parrot
You've never had an original thought in your miserable life..


----------



## MicPaPa

Lion Eyes said:


> You thought?
> You fucking lying parrot
> You've never had an original thought in your miserable life..


Fact Check: TRUE - ON ALL COUNTS


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder what their future of doing active shooter drills will do to them? I thought righties saw all this psychological stuff as namby-pamby bs? Parenting, parenting, parenting.
> We've been doing AS drills for years - they don't impede your access to education.


----------



## watfly

Along with earthquake drills and once upon a time cold war drills.  Leftist's seem to struggle with relativity, materiality and cause and effect.


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder what their future of doing active shooter drills will do to them? I thought righties saw all this psychological stuff as namby-pamby bs? Parenting, parenting, parenting.


Do you have kids? They have been doing active shooter drills in school for at the last 10 years...just like fire drills...not sure how you didn't know that


----------



## soccersc

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Covid death rate for white Americans has recently exceeded the rates for Black, Latino and Asian Americans.
> 
> But these large racial gaps in vaccination have not continued — and as a result, neither have the gaps in Covid death rates.​
> 
> Instead, Covid’s racial gaps have narrowed and, more recently, even flipped. Over the past year, the Covid death rate for white Americans has been 14 percent higher than the rate for Black Americans and 72 percent higher than the Latino rate, according to the latest C.D.C. data.​


Maybe its a different Covid in California, because according to the CDPH it still affects minorities much worse? 
They actually call it severe!!! :| But yet vaccination by ethnicity is relatively similar? 
Strange how this disease works, huh???? 

View attachment 13890









						California’s commitment to health equity
					

COVID-19 has highlighted existing inequities in health. California is identifying communities most impacted.




					covid19.ca.gov


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Lion Eyes said:


> You thought?
> You fucking lying parrot
> You've never had an original thought in your miserable life..


Yes, just a lackey repeating talking points. Although, I do believe the "parent" part is personal. My guess is a soccer coach who never got to coach the best teams because he couldn't manage personal relationships with the parents of players.


----------



## watfly

I don't know where it came from, but the coincidences are hard to ignore.  In an abundance of caution I have taken pangolin and bats off my diet.









						WHO experts say COVID-19 lab leak theory cannot yet be ruled out as investigation into virus' origins continues
					

That stance marks a sharp reversal of the U.N. health agency’s initial assessment of the pandemic’s origins.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

soccersc said:


> Do you have kids? They have been doing active shooter drills in school for at the last 10 years...just like fire drills...not sure how you didn't know that


Not the schools my kids attended. If they did my kids never complained about it, but they are secure in who they are. Strong people move forward, try it sometime. 
Just wondering when we start “hardening targets” where does that end? School? Church? Movie theaters? Grocery stores? Concert venues? Senior centers? Post offices? Parks? Buses? Our homes?


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder what their future of doing active shooter drills will do to them? I thought righties saw all this psychological stuff as namby-pamby bs? Parenting, parenting, parenting.





Hüsker Dü said:


> Not the schools my kids attended. If they did my kids never complained about it, but they are secure in who they are. Strong people move forward, try it sometime.


So this is just partisan ‘crying wolf’ for a reaction?

It’s clear you don’t think this is an issue for kids, based upon your own experience.

Try being genuine, you might get a better reaction…  or maybe even respect.  Just attaching presumptive opinions to others and slapping a political label on it is weaksauce.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not the schools my kids attended. If they did my kids never complained about it?


You know what kids did complain about?… in the not so recent past (appears your kids are well beyond current school aged children)…. School closures.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> So this is just partisan ‘crying wolf’ for a reaction?
> 
> It’s clear you don’t think this is an issue for kids, based upon your own experience.
> 
> Try being genuine, you might get a better reaction…  or maybe even respect.  Just attaching presumptive opinions to others and slapping a political label on it is weaksauce.


That’s what you just did.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not the schools my kids attended. If they did my kids never complained about it, but they are secure in who they are. Strong people move forward, try it sometime.
> Just wondering when we start “hardening targets” where does that end? School? Church? Movie theaters? Grocery stores? Concert venues? Senior centers? Post offices? Parks? Buses? Our homes?


It ends when we address the mental health issues that underline just about every mass shooting in recent history.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Try being genuine, you might get a better reaction…  or maybe even respect.


He oozes inauthenticity. His kids? Never happened the way he presents it - or at all. Again, we can only hope not for humanity's sake.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It ends when we address the mental health issues that underline just about every mass shooting in recent history.


Sure.  Let's add a line to the firearms background check application --

Q.  Are you crazy?


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s what you just did.


Re-read your words and mine. If you still think your latest quip is justified than you’re just doubling down on your blindingly myopic perspective to any point of view other than your own… hence the lack of respect from your audience.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It ends when we address the mental health issues that underline just about every mass shooting in recent history.


Are you saying that Americans have more mass shootings because we are just less mentally stable than Europeans?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Are you saying that Americans have more mass shootings because we are just less mentally stable than Europeans?


...and Canadians, Australians, and New Zealanders?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Are you saying that Americans have more mass shootings because we are just less mentally stable than Europeans?


Do some research and get back to me…..

And for the record, yes…we need to tighten up the accessibility to firearms.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Do some research and get back to me…..
> 
> And for the record, yes…we need to tighten up the accessibility to firearms.


Might take a while.  I can see taking some extra time on the OZ/NZ leg of the research expedition….


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I don't know where it came from, but the coincidences are hard to ignore.  In an abundance of caution I have taken pangolin and bats off my diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO experts say COVID-19 lab leak theory cannot yet be ruled out as investigation into virus' origins continues
> 
> 
> That stance marks a sharp reversal of the U.N. health agency’s initial assessment of the pandemic’s origins.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


The "bat theory" outcome is not damaging at all to the Chinese government. The "lab theory" outcome introduces an immense liability for the Chinese government and will have the effect of chilling investment in virus research in the way that Three Mile Island affected the future of nuclear power. The Chinese government has all the data and is not sharing it. They initially covered up the outbreak and its magnitude and stated the virus wasn't aerosolized. This is a country where citizens disappear when they say the wrong things and have for quite some time. Add to that all the vested interest of many of those "investigating" the origins of the virus, as well as the first impression bias of much of the mainstream media. We have already seen Fauci lie about masks because he didn't believe the public could handle the truth. So, I am not optimistic that the research being will be based on good science. In cases such as this, Occam's razor is good guidance.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not the schools my kids attended. If they did my kids never complained about it, but they are secure in who they are. Strong people move forward, try it sometime.
> *Just wondering when we start “hardening targets” where does that end? *School? Church? Movie theaters? Grocery stores? Concert venues? Senior centers? Post offices? Parks? Buses? Our homes?


Your thirst for the extreme and dramatic is evident. You don't need sand bags and minefields to make schools less easy to access.  I wonder when was the last time you tried to get onto a school campus in urban districts with a history of chronic weapons offenses.  Pretty "hardened" - metal detectors, one way in/out, police presence.  The other places you mentioned are a bit harder to secure...schools..not so much.  The impediment to more effective school protection is whiny and incompetent people.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I don't know where it came from, but the coincidences are hard to ignore.  In an abundance of caution I have taken pangolin and bats off my diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO experts say COVID-19 lab leak theory cannot yet be ruled out as investigation into virus' origins continues
> 
> 
> That stance marks a sharp reversal of the U.N. health agency’s initial assessment of the pandemic’s origins.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


I don't disagree that "Trump speculated repeatedly - without evidence - that COVID-19 was started in a Chinese lab." (see the sentence from the article below) but it does raise a question. What was the evidence for a "bat source" that could be determined to be independent of the lab? The simple fact that we are now hearing that the lab theory can't be discounted after much of the mainstream media "debunked" it - with appropriate race-baiting language - points again to the painfully egregious failure of much of our news media to be focused on finding the truth. The distinction made here without the context of what was being reported indicates this source didn't learn its lesson. Not only did they repeat something without evidence, they wrongly dismissed a theory that they should have actively been investigating.

Former U.S. President Donald Trump speculated repeatedly — without evidence — that COVID-19 was started in a Chinese lab. He also accused WHO of “colluding” with China to cover up the initial outbreak, citing the U.N. health agency’s continued public praise of the country.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> Your thirst for the extreme and dramatic is evident. You don't need sand bags and minefields to make schools less easy to access.  I wonder when was the last time you tried to get onto a school campus in urban districts with a history of chronic weapons offenses.  Pretty "hardened" - metal detectors, one way in/out, police presence.  The other places you mentioned are a bit harder to secure...schools..not so much.  The impediment to more effective school protection is whiny and incompetent people.


I keep hearing about hardening targets from my friends on the right and was just wondering if that is the answer, to take a defensive position? Security around schools is great for a number of reasons. The elementary a short walk away is now totally fenced off and had been for years because someone somehow set the new at the time jungle gym a blaze. That was a melted plastic mess!


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> I keep hearing about hardening targets from my friends on the right and was just wondering if that is the answer, to take a defensive position? Security around schools is great for a number of reasons. The elementary a short walk away is now totally fenced off and had been for years because someone somehow set the new at the time jungle gym a blaze. That was a melted plastic mess!


leave it to someone like you to make common sense adjustments to protecting kids a partisan thing.  When was the last time you went into a corporate building, a court house.  Do you lock your front door? Do you have a ring doorbell? your TDS has progressed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> leave it to someone like you to make common sense adjustments to protecting kids a partisan thing.  When was the last time you went into a corporate building, a court house.  Do you lock your front door? Do you have a ring doorbell? your TDS has progressed.


Who’s making this partisan? You are setting up a straw man. Is the absolute right to sell weapons design exclusively to murder humans in the most damaging way a partisan issue? Point is are we prepared militarize our entire society to protect us from ourselves and to protect gun manufacturers profit margin?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who’s making this partisan? You are setting up a straw man. Is the absolute right to sell weapons design exclusively to murder humans in the most damaging way a partisan issue? Point is are we prepared militarize our entire society to protect us from ourselves and to protect gun manufacturers profit margin?


Uhhh, you repeatedly make it partisan and are overly dramatic.  

Common sense gun laws can and should be discussed, outside of partisan lanes.  What weapon isn't designed to murder a human?  Silly statements like this discredit your position and makes it impossible to take you serious. 

There are existing laws on the books that can be brought to bear *if,* and I say *if* we want to curb the access to weapons/items  we deem to dangerous or unneccesary for the common person.  But what you refuse to do is support solutions that can be implemented now, ones that cringy partisan politicians have no choice but to support.  

The 2A discussion is an emotional one, one that will not be solved before the next wacko uses a weapon that has been sensationlized by the media and gun manufacturers to kill more babies in schools.  Your all or nothing attitude is just as complicit.  As complicit as the cops who left their backbones at home, as complicit as the gun manufacturers and their marketing strategy, and as complicit as those threatening to take all guns away.   It's a complicated issue, one that won't resolve itself over night - wackos on both sides of the 2A  will make sure it takes forever to implement common sense.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> Uhhh, you repeatedly make it partisan and are overly dramatic.
> 
> Common sense gun laws can and should be discussed, outside of partisan lanes.  What weapon isn't designed to murder a human?  Silly statements like this discredit your position and makes it impossible to take you serious.
> 
> There are existing laws on the books that can be brought to bear *if,* and I say *if* we want to curb the access to weapons/items  we deem to dangerous or unneccesary for the common person.  But what you refuse to do is support solutions that can be implemented now, ones that cringy partisan politicians have no choice but to support.
> 
> The 2A discussion is an emotional one, one that will not be solved before the next wacko uses a weapon that has been sensationlized by the media and gun manufacturers to kill more babies in schools.  Your all or nothing attitude is just as complicit.  As complicit as the cops who left their backbones at home, as complicit as the gun manufacturers and their marketing strategy, and as complicit as those threatening to take all guns away.   It's a complicated issue, one that won't resolve itself over night - wackos on both sides of the 2A  will make sure it takes forever to implement common sense.


Do you understand the physics involved with the rifles in question?
Here’s a basic look








						What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body
					

When a patient is shot by an AR-15, it "looks like a grenade went off in there."




					www.wired.com


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you understand the physics involved with the rifles in question?
> Here’s a basic look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body
> 
> 
> When a patient is shot by an AR-15, it "looks like a grenade went off in there."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wired.com


again, typical emoting on your part.  Plenty of articles out there right now that talk about high velocity rounds and their effect on human bodies. 

Of course necked down higher velocity rounds are  going to cause more damage, just like a serrated knife creates more internal damage than non serrated.  Matters not to what needs to be done to avoid/limit these types of incidents from happening.  A child dies just as easily from a 9mm shot at close range as from a 5.56 NATO round, especially when: Cops hang out in a hall way, doors are unlocked, and access to school grounds is easy.  Small bodies tend to bleed out quicker than large ones when just lying there. 

The argument isn't whether there are different forensic characteristics of certain rounds...because there are.  The argument is how do we as a society, given the current conditions, make incidents like this harder to happen.  

But please continue to flock and read articles that don't provide solutions but rather inflame emotions.  Asses and elbows but nothing gets done. But go ahead and be offended.


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how this works. It may impair long term immunity to covid. 

Now it has yet to be determined for sure one way or another. 

But when many here and other places said the vaccines are safe...rational people pointed out there have/had been no long term studies. 

Questions such as the one above are typically known prior to widespread use of any vaccine.

But not only did we roll out vaccines, in many cases/jobs there were MANDATED. And what is worse? The vast vast majority of people have not risk to covid.


----------



## watfly

This is an interesting development.









						Kids get three viruses at time as COVID measures harmed immune system
					

Medical experts are seeing children with a surprising number of different viruses inside them, which they believe is partly due to the children not being exposed to usual viruses, thanks to pandemic precautions.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Grace T.

My jaw's on the floor today from looking at the economic data.  I think Michael Burry is right about all this.  We're looking at a potentially more severe than 2008 event.  A tampon shortage...really?

If we get a hot summer there is also a large possibility for civil unrest.  It feels like people are at their breaking point.  All it will take is a match, but I have no idea what that match is or if it will come.


----------



## thirteenknots

Grace T. said:


> My jaw's on the floor today from looking at the economic data.  I think Michael Burry is right about all this.  We're looking at a potentially more severe than 2008 event.  A tampon shortage...really?
> 
> If we get a hot summer there is also a large possibility for civil unrest.  It feels like people are at their breaking point.  All it will take is a match, but I have no idea what that match is or if it will come.


Don't look for it in any specific area.
It's been lit for quite some time, Joe Biden 
is just so incompetent that what he thinks is
gasoline is really his own party's water buckets.

Just remember what Obama said about old Joe...
"  Don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up "


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> My jaw's on the floor today from looking at the economic data.  I think Michael Burry is right about all this.  We're looking at a potentially more severe than 2008 event.  A tampon shortage...really?
> 
> If we get a hot summer there is also a large possibility for civil unrest.  It feels like people are at their breaking point.  All it will take is a match, but I have no idea what that match is or if it will come.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536539035774210051


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> A tampon shortage...really?


If you were in Gotham, I was going to recommend seeing the Man of Steal. However, he seems to be out of that business now and moving in a positive direction. I wonder if there is any lesson in this story?









						‘Man of Steal’ speaks: thief with 46 arrests exploited city’s fears — and jail might save his life
					

Isaac Rodriguez, who was busted for shoplifting 46 times in 2021, says he exploited his Queens neighborhood’s fears, lax store security and soft-on crime prosecutors.




					nypost.com


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> My jaw's on the floor today from looking at the economic data.  I think Michael Burry is right about all this.  We're looking at a potentially more severe than 2008 event.  A tampon shortage...really?
> 
> If we get a hot summer there is also a large possibility for civil unrest.  It feels like people are at their breaking point.  All it will take is a match, but I have no idea what that match is or if it will come.


Things are certainly going to get worse this summer before they get better.  You're going to have RvW riots after the final decision comes out and it will get really dicey if we experience brown or blackouts (although I think they will have to change the name since that will be considered racist).

However, I'm cautiously optimistic.  You are already seeing a rebuke of progressive policies and Democrats are abandoning Biden.  This is evidenced by the Youngkin election, SF school board recall, Boudin recall, likely Gascon recall, a few corporate rejections of woke culture, etc.  Reasonable voters can no longer ignore the devastating impacts of progressive policies.

Can we survive the next two years of obfuscation, inaction, lack of accountability and misguided policies?  It will be tough, but we survived Carter, we can survive Biden.  It is certainly going to be overwhelming for some of our population like near retirees and lower income families.  Potentially awful for those kids who can no longer afford college because their 529 is being decimated.  F'Biden for what he's done to my daughter's 529.

Maybe the mid-terms will be a wakeup call for the Biden administration that they need to be problem solvers and not pet cause promoters, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## thirteenknots

watfly said:


> Things are certainly going to get worse this summer before they get better.  You're going to have RvW riots after the final decision comes out and it will get really dicey if we experience brown or blackouts (although I think they will have to change the name since that will be considered racist).
> 
> However, I'm cautiously optimistic.  You are already seeing a rebuke of progressive policies and Democrats are abandoning Biden.  This is evidenced by the Youngkin election, SF school board recall, Boudin recall, likely Gascon recall, a few corporate rejections of woke culture, etc.  Reasonable voters can no longer ignore the devastating impacts of progressive policies.
> 
> Can we survive the next two years of obfuscation, inaction, lack of accountability and misguided policies?  It will be tough, but we survived Carter, we can survive Biden.  It is certainly going to be overwhelming for some of our population like near retirees and lower income families.  Potentially awful for those kids who can no longer afford college because their 529 is being decimated.  F'Biden for what he's done to my daughter's 529.
> 
> Maybe the mid-terms will be a wakeup call for the Biden administration that they need to be problem solvers and not pet cause promoters, but I'm not holding my breath.




Find the " Leaker " of the draft and there will be no
Roe -V- Wade riots.
The leaker will either spill the beans or be Arkancided.
Both scenarios will cold stop the Democrat induced Riots.


----------



## watfly

I'm not sure the best word for this.  "Karma" maybe.









						Fauci, 81, has COVID
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases who President Joe Biden tapped as the pandemic tsar, has come down with COVID.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> I'm not sure the best word for this.  "Karma" maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci, 81, has COVID
> 
> 
> Dr. Anthony Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases who President Joe Biden tapped as the pandemic tsar, has come down with COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


It highlights again that the vax does nothing in terms of reducing the spread...which is/was a major reason offered up why people with no risk had to have the vax.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> It highlights again that the vax does nothing in terms of reducing the spread...which is/was a major reason offered up why people with no risk had to have the vax.


Yeah, one eighty year old vaccinated man caught covid, therefore the vaccine must have no impact.

That's the kind of rock solid logic I've come to expect from this thread.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> .  Potentially awful for those kids who can no longer afford college because their 529 is being decimated.


Good news is paying down that student loan debt with dollars that are worse less than when borrowed… bad news is the interest rates aren’t likely fixed.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536539035774210051


who are these people who menstruate?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> who are these people who menstruate?


Most women are democrats or independents.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Most women are democrats or independents.


yes, and?  Been to VA lately?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> yes, and?  Been to VA lately?


Veterans Administration or Virginia? The former 2 years the latter never.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Yeah, one eighty year old vaccinated man caught covid, therefore the vaccine must have no impact.
> 
> That's the kind of rock solid logic I've come to expect from this thread.


That's the rock solid response I've come to expect from you!! I never saw in the previous response where he mentioned the vaccine had "no impact," but leave it to you to manipulate what he is trying to say.

Pretty sure he said, the "vax does nothing in terms of spread"...wow, how did you pull out "has no impact??" You are as good as Psaki, they need to put you in there instead of Karine, she struggles, but you seem to get the idea of totally spinning something to deflect from the original intent of the message....good try though


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Yeah, one eighty year old vaccinated man caught covid, therefore the vaccine must have no impact.
> 
> That's the kind of rock solid logic I've come to expect from this thread.


Per usual you miss the point. I am not saying they don't prevent more serious issues for those that catch covid. 

I was pointing out the vax doesn't prevent the spread of the virus...which was used as a justification by many to mandate otherwise healthy individuals who have no real risk to covid to take an experimental vax.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Veterans Administration or Virginia? The former 2 years the latter never.


Good question - Va, not VA.  Hopefully the VA treated you well.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> That's the rock solid response I've come to expect from you!! I never saw in the previous response where he mentioned the vaccine had "no impact," but leave it to you to manipulate what he is trying to say.
> 
> Pretty sure he said, the "vax does nothing in terms of spread"...wow, how did you pull out "has no impact??" You are as good as Psaki, they need to put you in there instead of Karine, she struggles, but you seem to get the idea of totally spinning something to deflect from the original intent of the message....good try though


I'm happy to let you defend the logic of the original post.

One eighty year old vaccinated man received a covid infection.  

The post you are defending claims that this demonstrates something about the ability of vaccinated people to transmit covid to others.  

(Specifically,  it "does nothing in terms of spread".)

How does that logic work?  One 80 year old man received covid, therefore vaccinated people must be equally good at transmitting covid???  Your example is on one side of transmission, but your claim is on the other.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Per usual you miss the point. I am not saying they don't prevent more serious issues for those that catch covid.
> 
> I was pointing out the vax doesn't prevent the spread of the virus...which was used as a justification by many to mandate otherwise healthy individuals who have no real risk to covid to take an experimental vax.


You were saying the vax has no impact at all on transmission.  That would mean zero impact on incoming infection, and zero impact on outgoing infection.

So, how does that work?  Walk me through the logical path from "one elderly man caught a mild case of covid" to "the vaccine does nothing in terms of spread.". 

Don't forget to explain how one incoming transmission proves anything at all about outgoing transmission.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You were saying the vax has no impact at all on transmission.  That would mean zero impact on incoming infection, and zero impact on outgoing infection.
> 
> So, how does that work?  Walk me through the logical path from "one elderly man caught a mild case of covid" to "the vaccine does nothing in terms of spread.".
> 
> Don't forget to explain how one incoming transmission proves anything at all about outgoing transmission.


explain how vaccines prevent transmission.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> I'm happy to let you defend the logic of the original post.
> 
> One eighty year old vaccinated man received a covid infection.
> 
> The post you are defending claims that this demonstrates something about the ability of vaccinated people to transmit covid to others.
> 
> (Specifically,  it "does nothing in terms of spread".)
> 
> How does that logic work?  One 80 year old man received covid, therefore vaccinated people must be equally good at transmitting covid???  Your example is on one side of transmission, but your claim is on the other.


okay, I’ll walk you through it but you are pretty bright so I think you’re being lazy…Fauci himself said with vaccination the country would reach herd immunity when we get to 75-85%vaccination. Then our mighty leader, Biden, jumped in and told the country that this was an epidemic of the unvaccinated.

So the previous post, explained pretty clearly, that the original intent of the vaccination was to stop the spread and bring herd immunity.  Now jump to June 2022, and as you can see by the graph below, that vaccinated and boosted actually are being infected more than just vaccinated and unvaccinated. So the logic would seem that since vaccinated and boosted are the ones that are getting Covid more than both the other groups they have a higher probability of transmitting. Is that hard to follow?Seems pretty logical, but that wasn’t even the original argument…the point was Fauci and the White House pushed the vaxx so the spread would stop…they were wrong, once again pretty simple. Funny how certain facts seem to slip the mind of those that defended those that were so wrong at the beginning of this whole thing. 

how does it go…fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, shame on me…fool me 5 times,
but you can keep acting like you don’t get it









						Fauci Predicts U.S. Could See Signs Of Herd Immunity By Late March Or Early April
					

Dr. Fauci said once the vaccine becomes widely available, if by "April, May, June, July, we get as many people vaccinated as possible, we could really turn this thing around" by the end of 2021.




					www.npr.org


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> okay, I’ll walk you through it but you are pretty bright so I think you’re being lazy…Fauci himself said with vaccination the country would reach herd immunity when we get to 75-85%vaccination.
> 
> "Dr. Fauci and his colleagues write that achieving classical herd immunity against SARS-CoV-2 is unlikely, due to a combination of factors that include features of the virus as well as current societal dynamics."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIH experts discuss controlling COVID-19 in commentary on herd immunity
> 
> 
> Achieving herd immunity thresholds have been less successful with respiratory viruses which continually mutate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nih.gov


----------



## soccersc

exactly, that’s for helping us prove the point! No such thing as her immunity with the vaxx, which is exactly what they said the vaxx was for in the first place…funny how Fauci always changes his tune, mask no mask…herd immunity, no herd immunity…seems like a very trustworthy guy


----------



## espola

soccersc said:


> exactly, that’s for helping us prove the point! No such thing as her immunity with the vaxx, which is exactly what they said the vaxx was for in the first place…funny how Fauci always changes his tune, mask no mask…herd immunity, no herd immunity…seems like a very trustworthy guy


"Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> explain how vaccines prevent transmission.


A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly.   This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.


It's no adventure, it's a Criminal Pox you supported.
When no one is around except just you and the rear
of your eyelids, the TRUTH faces YOU back.
Sleep tight Adam Espola Schiff, it's honesty you lack.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly.   This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.


Please explain the current epidemic of 
Sudden Adult Death Syndrome.


----------



## dad4

soccersc said:


> okay, I’ll walk you through it but you are pretty bright so I think you’re being lazy…Fauci himself said with vaccination the country would reach herd immunity when we get to 75-85%vaccination. Then our mighty leader, Biden, jumped in and told the country that this was an epidemic of the unvaccinated.
> 
> So the previous post, explained pretty clearly, that the original intent of the vaccination was to stop the spread and bring herd immunity.  Now jump to June 2022, and as you can see by the graph below, that vaccinated and boosted actually are being infected more than just vaccinated and unvaccinated. So the logic would seem that since vaccinated and boosted are the ones that are getting Covid more than both the other groups they have a higher probability of transmitting. Is that hard to follow?Seems pretty logical, but that wasn’t even the original argument…the point was Fauci and the White House pushed the vaxx so the spread would stop…they were wrong, once again pretty simple. Funny how certain facts seem to slip the mind of those that defended those that were so wrong at the beginning of this whole thing.
> 
> how does it go…fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, shame on me…fool me 5 times,
> but you can keep acting like you don’t get it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Predicts U.S. Could See Signs Of Herd Immunity By Late March Or Early April
> 
> 
> Dr. Fauci said once the vaccine becomes widely available, if by "April, May, June, July, we get as many people vaccinated as possible, we could really turn this thing around" by the end of 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 13947


Nice graph that ignores age.  Boosters are far more common among the elderly.

How does this support the post you’re supposed to be defending?  You know, the one which claimed that one 80 year old man catching covid is proof that vaccines to not reduce your ability to transmit covid?

Even if I grant the entire BS graoh you just posted, it still only makes a claim about vaccinated people’s ability to get infected.  It says nothing about their ability to transmit,


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

I think the positive thing is that there does seem to be a general overall acceptance at this point that the western vaccines are effective at blunting severe symptomatic C19 infection and death.  There's not much argument anymore. 

The case incidence thing keeps going around.  I've said a real critique is that the promise of rapid vaxx updates to keep pace with evolving variants has not been realized (not putting it in past tense so no jinx).  The original virus had a R value of about 2.  Omicron evolved to be around R 10-11, making it one of the fastest replicating and most infectious viruses that we know about.  And the S protein-the vaxx target-has undergone considerable antigenic drift since the vaccines were rolled out in late 2020.  That said, its actually remarkable that the vaxx, especially with booster to get circulating antibody titers up, held up as well as it did against the omicron tsunami.  

One thing about the graph that was just posted I don't get.  I don't think boosters were approved until late Aug of 2021. Of course it all kind of bIurs together at this point. But if that's right, I'm not sure how you can have a vaxx plus booster trend line going all the way back to the delta wave on that graph.  The other thing I'd note is that some of the dust up about case rates by vaxx status, like the April data that was posted earlier, are from low case periods-the troughs between the waves.  When case/100K are in the low 100s.  Without CIs on those low end numbers its hard to know what they mean, if anything.  Could just be scatter.

Here is what the CDC has for case/100K during omicron broken out by vaxx status. Its consistent with what was observed in close to real time by local health agencies in large population centers here in the states and with data from London, across the UK and Europe.  

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Nice graph that ignores age.  Boosters are far more common among the elderly.
> 
> How does this support the post you’re supposed to be defending?  You know, the one which claimed that one 80 year old man catching covid is proof that vaccines to not reduce your ability to transmit covid?
> 
> Even if I grant the entire BS graoh you just posted, it still only makes a claim about vaccinated people’s ability to get infected.  It says nothing about their ability to transmit,


what is your point of who is getting boosted, old or young doesn’t matter, point is boosted people have a higher rate of infection.

The graph makes no claim about ability to get infected? Haha what? I guess uninflected people are transmitting, that is logical, much more logical than the original claim that the vaxx was first pushed on people because it was suppose to stop the spread…that makes sense






						ArcGIS Dashboards
					

ArcGIS Dashboards




					ochca.maps.arcgis.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.


No, that honor goes to the word “vaccine”.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> what is your point of who is getting boosted, old or young doesn’t matter, point is boosted people have a higher rate of infection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ochca.maps.arcgis.com


Thanks for posting the link to the graph.  If you look point by point on the yellow boosted line for the Orange County data it's flat lined at 0 until early fall 2021, when boosted data would have become available.  so their software must just plot it at 0 starting at whatever the y-axis intercept is.  But why do you think that graph shows that boosted people have a higher rate of infection?  Boosted is 136.5 per 100K peak omicron; unvaxx is 394.2 per 100K peak omicron.


----------



## soccersc

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Thanks for posting the link to the graph.  If you look point by point on the yellow boosted line for the Orange County data it's flat lined at 0 until early fall 2021, when boosted data would have become available.  so their software must just plot it at 0 starting at whatever the y-axis intercept is.  But why do you think that graph shows that boosted people have a higher rate of infection?  Boosted is 136.5 per 100K peak omicron; unvaxx is 394.2 per 100K peak omicron.


I’m not sure where those numbers are from…I was referencing 7 day case rate by vaccination status and fully vaccinated and boosted have the highest case rate since April according to the OCDPH


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

soccersc said:


> I’m not sure where those numbers are from…I was referencing 7 day case rate by vaccination status and fully vaccinated and boosted have the highest case rate since April according to the OCDPH


Here's an annotated look at ~ the last year of the OCDPH data (same link as earlier, my annotation).  My "boosters" arrows is when boosters became available just before omicon hit. The time frame for the April data is circled.  It gets to what I was trying to say earlier.  April was a period of relatively low CoV-2.  May is bumping up a bit but if we keep these low oscillations it may mean omicron won the battle within the variant swarm and is becoming our new endemic C-virus.  All things considered, that would be OK. So are differences in case rate depending on vaxx status during low covid intervals like April meaningful or are they just scatter? Without some kind of error measurement superimposed on the data  its hard to know.  When the lines converge like that I tend to think its likely to be about as predictive as the "which U9 team is going to take it all this year" forecasts.  But when a Cov2 shit storm hits like with omicron the real differences become apparent.  Do most of these public health agencies or the CDC provide confidence intervals on their public graphing platforms?  No.  If they took a cue from government climate data sites that have been playing this game longer they probably should, although if you download the actual tables from the MMWR reports that the CDC publishes those +/- values are there.  But the more telling thing to me is the pattern you see in the Orange County data during the omicron wave +/- vaxx + booster was reproduced around the western world.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.


I'll say "risk" is the most misunderstood and "children" have been the most abused.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> "Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.


Yeah, not a very useful term. People think it means beat the virus instead of strike a balance with the virus.

But my vote for the most counterproductive term goes to Zero Covid.  It sounds like a diet softdrink.  Now that Jolt is gone we need something to take its place.  "Twice the caffeine, none of the virus."


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly.   This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.


and how has this worked out for the current batch of goodies from the pharma bros?


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> and how has this worked out for the current batch of goodies from the pharma bros?


I think the big money is from chronic disease.  My guess is that the direct money from vaccines is small compared to the indirect profits from keeping their diabetes and heart disease patients alive for another few years.

12 extra months of dialysis is worth a whole lot more than 4 shots of an mRNA vaccine.


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly.   This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.


But if you don’t know you are infected and go out and spread it, it really doesn’t matter how fast the time period is…one day is all it takes and you could be infecting a whole lot of people, you just don’t know


----------



## Grace T.

soccersc said:


> But if you don’t know you are infected and go out and spread it, it really doesn’t matter how fast the time period is…one day is all it takes and you could be infecting a whole lot of people, you just don’t know


He's always been stuck in 3 dimensional thinking.  The other thing is if everyone is eventually going to get it (multiple times) the total number of people over time that get it (barring a miraculous disappearance one day) remains the same.  It's just evened out over time into smaller bumps instead of huge waves, which is in fact what we are seeing with the omicron bursts, as the virus goes through various evolutionary phases.  Over a long enough time line, for example, everyone is going to catch the flu 18x in a lifetime.  The flu shot may reduce that to 12x particularly if you build immunity by taking it every year.  And that's with a flu shot you get yearly and is specifically targeted to predicted variants, which we may or may not ever get with COVID since it seems to evolve much more quickly and we don't know where the bottom (if ever) is.  The COVID, shot, by contrast is against an older strain and the efficacy against contagion declines towards zero with time after every shot.  Of like chicken pox before the vaccine...everyone eventually got it.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> I think the big money is from chronic disease.  My guess is that the direct money from vaccines is small compared to the indirect profits from keeping their diabetes and heart disease patients alive for another few years.
> 
> 12 extra months of dialysis is worth a whole lot more than 4 shots of an mRNA vaccine.


sure, chronic disease is the big money maker but pharma is all about multiple streams.  2021 saw about 34B in pre tax profit across the big 3 vaccine makers.  not bad spending money.  Boosters, expansion of age groups, mutation and hype will ensure mrna spending money for years to come.  

And not to take anything away from the effectivness of the vaccine within specific demographics, but that's not how it was sold.  Healthy or not,  vaccines for all..everyone went right along, even after clear data was in that not everyone needed one.  Drive the dollars home.  

but yes, heart disease treatment drives the train with pharma, nothing will top bad *cholesterol* .


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> sure, chronic disease is the big money maker but pharma is all about multiple streams.  2021 saw about 34B in pre tax profit across the big 3 vaccine makers.  not bad spending money.  Boosters, expansion of age groups, mutation and hype will ensure mrna spending money for years to come.
> 
> And not to take anything away from the effectivness of the vaccine within specific demographics, but that's not how it was sold.  Healthy or not,  vaccines for all..everyone went right along, even after clear data was in that not everyone needed one.  Drive the dollars home.
> 
> but yes, heart disease treatment drives the train with pharma, nothing will top bad *cholesterol* .


You make it sound like a giant conspiracy.  The vaccines saved millions of lives worldwide.  Part of what saved those lives was reduced transmission among people who were themselves at a low risk.

Moderna and Pfizer made some money in the process.  So what?  

There is a decent argument about the lack of updated boosters.  Other than that, you’re just throwing stones at the fire department after the fire is mostly out.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.

---

In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.

Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.

Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.

And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.

By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.

This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.

---









						Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN
					

In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.
> 
> ---
> 
> In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.
> 
> Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.
> 
> Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.
> 
> And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.
> 
> By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.
> 
> This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN
> 
> 
> In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Not the first time CCP has gone overboard on something.

At least this time it’s less damaging than when Mao decided he was the world’s foremost agricultural expert.


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.
> 
> ---
> 
> In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.
> 
> Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.
> 
> Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.
> 
> And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.
> 
> By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.
> 
> This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN
> 
> 
> In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


He per usual missed the point. 

Despite being locked down, not allowed to go out, the virus ripped through that compound.

Lockdowns and masks dont work. 

We are paying the price for it now. 

We would be in a much better spot if we had not shut everything down, closed schools, etc.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.
> 
> ---
> 
> In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.
> 
> Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.
> 
> Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.
> 
> And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.
> 
> By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.
> 
> This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN
> 
> 
> In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


We quarantined healthy people, how stupid do you have to be?  They were effectively sitting ducks.   We threw out years of medical knowledge in regards to quarantines, masks etc out of fear and in the name of "doing something".   Stay at home orders should have been "get out and get fresh air" orders.  Instead we banned people from beaches, parks and other public spaces.  Remember Newsom's totally unscientific tier system that prevented kids from getting out and playing with their peers?  Fortunately, their was the recall or the tier system would have lasted much longer.  It would be one thing if this were in 20/20 hindsight, but many were calling it as it happened.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Not the first time CCP has gone overboard on something.
> 
> At least this time it’s less damaging than when Mao decided he was the world’s foremost agricultural expert.


I appreciate the humor but there is an important point in your first sentence. The trouble with having the power to impose things that are "overboard" is that, inevitably, the power is used to impose things that are overboard.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I appreciate the humor but there is an important point in your first sentence. The trouble with having the power to impose things that are "overboard" is that, inevitably, the power is used to impose things that are overboard.


All true.  Some people will have a reasonable discussion on this. 

But part of that discussion is admitting that the masks, distance, vax mandates, and indoor restrictions saved lives.

Therefore, that discussion won't happen here.


----------



## watfly

Vaccines are a great idea for adults for their own protection.  I just don't see the point for children. other than those that have other vulnerable conditions.  Kids just don't get that sick and the vaccines don't prevent infection.  Seems to be the majority opinion since only 29% of 5-11 year olds have 2 doses of the vaccination.  Can't imagine there will be much demand for 6mo to 4yo.









						Experts question CDC's approval of COVID vaccines for under-5s
					

In the wake of the CDC's approval of Pfizer and Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine for babies as young as six months, at least one expert has questioned the move.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You make it sound like a giant conspiracy.  The vaccines saved millions of lives worldwide.  Part of what saved those lives was reduced transmission among people who were themselves at a low risk.
> 
> Moderna and Pfizer made some money in the process.  So what?
> 
> There is a decent argument about the lack of updated boosters.  Other than that, you’re just throwing stones at the fire department after the fire is mostly out.


You sure like to twist up people's words.  Touting any of the covid vaccines as a big time player in transmission reduction is quite the stretch. Par for the course for the mandate crowd.  I don't subscribe to any conspiracy - the vaccines were sold as a silver bullet, they turned out to be silver plated.  Did they  increase protection for certain populations, absolutely, and thank goodness.  Not prioritizing and having a clear vision for protecting critical  populations killed people.  Political flailing killed people.  Public health melt down killed people. Divisive rhetoric from made for tv talking heads killed people..

What exactly is an updated booster?


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Vaccines are a great idea for adults for their own protection.  I just don't see the point for children. other than those that have other vulnerable conditions.  Kids just don't get that sick and the vaccines don't prevent infection.  Seems to be the majority opinion since only 29% of 5-11 year olds have 2 doses of the vaccination.  Can't imagine there will be much demand for 6mo to 4yo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experts question CDC's approval of COVID vaccines for under-5s
> 
> 
> In the wake of the CDC's approval of Pfizer and Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine for babies as young as six months, at least one expert has questioned the move.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Messaging will be directed at the helicopter parent population.  Pharma companies are already putting their people on TV, making sure a doomsday scenario is presented.  

We don't even know what percentage of U11s have been exposed to the virus, yet we intend on carpet vaccinating a population of small humans that aren't at significant risk.  It's a pediatric  joke.  

I doubt there will be many takers, many parents are paying attention.  Unless school districts try to inject this into the vaccinated requirements.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> You sure like to twist up people's words.  Touting any of the covid vaccines as a big time player in transmission reduction is quite the stretch. Par for the course for the mandate crowd.  I don't subscribe to any conspiracy - the vaccines were sold as a silver bullet, they turned out to be silver plated.  Did they  increase protection for certain populations, absolutely, and thank goodness.  Not prioritizing and having a clear vision for protecting critical  populations killed people.  Political flailing killed people.  Public health melt down killed people. Divisive rhetoric from made for tv talking heads killed people..
> 
> What exactly is an updated booster?


The current boosters are still based on the original variant, from 2+ years ago.

I'd much rather get a vaccine against the variants currently in circulation, or at least a closer relative.  More like the flu shot.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> All true.  Some people will have a reasonable discussion on this.
> 
> But part of that discussion is admitting that the masks, distance, vax mandates, and indoor restrictions saved lives.
> 
> Therefore, that discussion won't happen here.


You are correct. I haven’t seen anyone from team mandate include short and long term economic impact and mental health impact from any “experts” in those fields when promoting mandates. Well, there is the standard response from the collective of talking point trolls that throws “parenting” at any mental health concerns for children.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> You are correct. I haven’t seen anyone from team mandate include short and long term economic impact and mental health impact from any “experts” in those fields when promoting mandates. Well, there is the standard response from the collective of talking point trolls that throws “parenting” at any mental health concerns for children.


Neither you nor I get to be in the room for the discussion.

I just hope it takes place.  Some of the mistakes are best described as “you don’t know what you don’t know”.  

Others are not so excusable.  It took several months to officially recognize the role of aerosol transmission.  Part of that was a reluctance to trigger regulations on air-borne pathogens.  In effect, we said “hospitals didn’t have enough negative pressure rooms, therefore the disease must not be transmitted by air.”

The “experts” on the other side, such as they are, did worse.  Much of their advice was just straight up denialism.  It will go away like a miracle.  Masks won’t work because the holes are too big.  Case numbers are too small to care about.  The growth isn’t exponential.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> Messaging will be directed at the helicopter parent population.  Pharma companies are already putting their people on TV, making sure a doomsday scenario is presented.
> 
> We don't even know what percentage of U11s have been exposed to the virus, yet we intend on carpet vaccinating a population of small humans that aren't at significant risk.  It's a pediatric  joke.
> 
> I doubt there will be many takers, many parents are paying attention.  Unless school districts try to inject this into the vaccinated requirements.


I don't see the vaccinations for 6mo-4yo even getting to 10%.  5-11 is less than 30% and some of those were forced vaccinations.  Does anyone know any parents that are clamoring to get their babies or toddlers vaccinated?  Other than hypochondriac and Munchausen by Proxy parents, I don't see much demand for vaccinations for the youngest.

The vaccinations are likely safe for the youngest, but when Pfizer only tested it on 3 kids that hardly gives someone comfort of its safety.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't see the vaccinations for 6mo-4yo even getting to 10%.  5-11 is less than 30% and some of those were forced vaccinations.  Does anyone know any parents that are clamoring to get their babies or toddlers vaccinated?  Other than hypochondriac and Munchausen by Proxy parents, I don't see much demand for vaccinations for the youngest.
> 
> The vaccinations are likely safe for the youngest, but when Pfizer only tested it on 3 kids that hardly gives someone comfort of its safety.


Protecting a child's heath with an approved vaccine is exactly the opposite of Munchausen by proxy syndrome.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Protecting a child's heath with an approved vaccine is exactly the opposite of Munchausen by proxy syndrome.


In this case, do you believe that this vaccine protects the health of a healthy ulittle?


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> The vaccinations are likely safe for the youngest, but when Pfizer only tested it on 3 kids that hardly gives someone comfort of its safety.


Why get a kid vaxxed when statistically they have absolutely NO RISK? By kids I mean 17 and under.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> In this case, do you believe that this vaccine protects the health of a healthy ulittle?


Yes.  The benefits of the vaccine for a ten year old are greater than the risks.  This is exactly what the FDA approval process is meant to evaluate, and the evaluation is done by people a hell of a lot smarter and more experienced than Tucker Carlson.

( Insert standard comment from Hound asserting that some non-zero number is actually zero. )


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> In this case, do you believe that this vaccine protects the health of a healthy ulittle?


Yes.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Yes.  The benefits of the vaccine for a ten year old are greater than the risks.  This is exactly what the FDA approval process is meant to evaluate, and the evaluation is done by people a hell of a lot smarter and more experienced than Tucker Carlson.
> 
> ( Insert standard comment from Hound asserting that some non-zero number is actually zero. )


Do you think Pfizer's study that only involved three kids receiving the vaccination is reasonable to determine effectiveness and safety for an entire age group?


----------



## EdNewt

watfly said:


> Do you think Pfizer's study that only involved three kids receiving the vaccination is reasonable to determine effectiveness and safety for an entire age group?


Nevermind.  Found it.


----------



## watfly

EdNewt said:


> "*About the Phase 1/2/3 Trial in Children*
> 
> The Phase 1/2/3 trial has enrolled more than 10,000 children ages 6 months to under 12 years of age in the United States, Finland, Poland, Spain and Brazil from more than 90 clinical trial sites. The trial evaluated the safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine in three age groups: ages 5 to under 12 years; ages 2 to under 5 years; and ages 6 months to under 2 years. Based on the Phase 1 dose-escalation portion of the trial, children ages 5 to under 12 years received a two-dose schedule of 10 µg each while children under age 5 received three lower 3-µg doses in the Phase 2/3 study. The trial enrolled children with or without prior evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Receives FDA Emergency Use Authorization for Children 6 Months through 4 Years of Age | Pfizer
> 
> 
> In a Phase 2/3 clinical trial, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine elicited a strong immune response in this age group Three 3-µg doses had favorable safety profile similar to placebo in young children ages 6 months through 4 years in Phase 2/3 clinical trial Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pfizer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Please cite your source for saying that only three kids received a vaccination in a Pfizer study.


I posted it above.


----------



## watfly

EdNewt said:


> Nevermind.  Found it.


Also in the NYT.









						What to Know About the Covid Vaccine for Little Kids
					

Here are answers to five common questions.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Do you think Pfizer's study that only involved three kids receiving the vaccination is reasonable to determine effectiveness and safety for an entire age group?


I think you misunderstand what "only three kids" is referring to.

No one bothers with a study of only three people.   It just isn't done.  The stats geeks would throw paper clips at you until you get out of their office.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think you misunderstand what "only three kids" is referring to.
> 
> No one bothers with a study of only three people.   It just isn't done.  The stats geeks would throw paper clips at you until you get out of their office.


How did I misunderstand?  Both NYT and DM are reporting that the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine is based on infections in 3 kids.  I can see what your saying in terms of safety, but it clearly is based on 3 kids for efficacy.

Apparently there are a lot of paper clips flying in the Pfizer offices.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> How did I misunderstand?  Both NYT and DM are reporting that the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine is based on infections in 3 kids.  I can see what your saying in terms of safety, but it clearly is based on 3 kids for efficacy.
> 
> Apparently there are a lot of paper clips flying in the Pfizer offices.


To date, there have been about 1k people under 17 who died *with covid*. Not necessarily because of covid.

They have no risk.

There is no reason to have your kid vaxxed...with the exception if the kid has some rather serious health issues.

Outside of that there is no good reason to get them vaxxed. Doesn't change their risk of death, it doesn't stop the spread of the virus, etc.

More importantly we still don't know if there are long term issues.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How did I misunderstand?  Both NYT and DM are reporting that the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine is based on infections in 3 kids.  I can see what your saying in terms of safety, but it clearly is based on 3 kids for efficacy.
> 
> Apparently there are a lot of paper clips flying in the Pfizer offices.


There is a huge difference between a study with only three kids, and a study of 10,000 kids where only three kids developed symptomatic infection.  

Someone with an anti-vax axe to grind has been pulling the wool over your eyes with that only three kids claim.  ”Wait for the placebo group to get sick” is no longer the only way to determine vaccine efficacy.   They can measure the immune response directly.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Yes.  The benefits of the vaccine for a ten year old are greater than the risks.  This is exactly what the FDA approval process is meant to evaluate, and the evaluation is done by people a hell of a lot smarter and more experienced than Tucker Carlson.
> 
> ( Insert standard comment from Hound asserting that some non-zero number is actually zero. )


FDA also approved OXY….so there is that.  I’m sure there was no manipulation or back room deals made in that process.

For the record, if you want to give your child the. Covid shot, go for it.  Just don’t mandate it.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> FDA also approved OXY….so there is that.  I’m sure there was no manipulation or back room deals made in that process.
> 
> For the record, if you want to give your child the. Covid shot, go for it.  Just don’t mandate it.


Can you see how the claim has drifted?

We started with someone parrotting Tuck’s B.S. about an FDA study with only three kids.

Turns out, it was 10,000 kids.

Then we went to ”well, that proves safety, but not efficacy”

That one fell as soon as someone pointed out that we can and do measure immune response.

Now we are reduced to “the FDA made a mistake on Oxy, therefore it must all be corrupt.”

Oxy?  I’m all in favor of third party verification of drug manufacturer claims.  But Oxy is very far removed from the covid jab.  It is a different product, made by a different company, using a different mechanism, to target a different condition.   You’re arguing guilt by association, without the association.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is a huge difference between a study with only three kids, and a study of 10,000 kids where only three kids developed symptomatic infection.
> 
> Someone with an anti-vax axe to grind has been pulling the wool over your eyes with that only three kids claim.  ”Wait for the placebo group to get sick” is no longer the only way to determine vaccine efficacy.   They can measure the immune response directly.


Yeah those anti-vaxxers at the New York Times have really got me bamboozled.  Amazing how you can just ignore facts.  Or are you claiming the media is misreporting what Pfizer is claiming.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> FDA also approved OXY….so there is that.  I’m sure there was no manipulation or back room deals made in that process.
> 
> For the record, if you want to give your child the. Covid shot, go for it.  Just don’t mandate it.


Oxycontin was approved for the management of pain, at which it is very effective.  The tragedy of oxycontin is that it was marketed as non-addictive, which it most certainly is not.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Can you see how the claim has drifted?
> 
> We started with someone parrotting Tuck’s B.S. about an FDA study with only three kids.
> 
> Turns out, it was 10,000 kids.
> 
> Then we went to ”well, that proves safety, but not efficacy”
> 
> That one fell as soon as someone pointed out that we can and do measure immune response.
> 
> Now we are reduced to “the FDA made a mistake on Oxy, therefore it must all be corrupt.”
> 
> Oxy?  I’m all in favor of third party verification of drug manufacturer claims.  But Oxy is very far removed from the covid jab.  It is a different product, made by a different company, using a different mechanism, to target a different condition.   You’re arguing guilt by association, without the association.


You’re combining different arguments but I don’t put cherry picking past you to try to make a point. 

The OXY thing show how the FDA can easily be manipulated and does make mistakes (Celebrex, ect) so their Approval still doesn’t mean it’s 100% safe (and with Vaccine Manufacturers protected from liability) the mandating and ostracizing of people who are skeptical isn’t warranted. Especially since it does NOT in fact prevent the spread as was once the battle cry of the Mandate crowd.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You’re combining different arguments but I don’t put cherry picking past you to try to make a point.
> 
> The OXY thing show how the FDA can easily be manipulated and does make mistakes (Celebrex, ect) so their Approval still doesn’t mean it’s 100% safe (and with Vaccine Manufacturers protected from liability) the mandating and ostracizing of people who are skeptical isn’t warranted. Especially since it does NOT in fact prevent the spread as was once the battle cry of the Mandate crowd.


Don't forget Fen-Phen.  For what every reason that's the one that always sticks out in my mind of botched approvals.

Some here mistakenly believe that the FDA determines safety, it's actually long term use that proves a drug's safety.  FDA approval is only a preliminary step.


----------



## Lion Eyes

*WHO chief 'believes Covid DID leak from Wuhan lab' after a 'catastrophic accident' in 2019 despite publicly maintaining 'all hypotheses remain on the table'*

*Director-general Tedros Adhanom confided to a senior European official: source*
*The Mail on Sunday first revealed concerns about Wuhan's Institute of Virology*
*Worldwide death toll of Covid pandemic now estimated to be above 18million*
*WHO initially branded lab leak fears 'a conspiracy theory', accepting China story *
By GLEN OWEN POLITICAL EDITOR FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 17:01 EDT, 18 June 2022 | UPDATED: 18:20 EDT, 18 June 2022

The head of the World Health Organisation privately believes the Covid pandemic started following a leak from a Chinese laboratory, a senior Government source claims.

While publicly the group maintains that ‘all hypotheses remain on the table’ about the origins of Covid, the source said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the World Health Organisation (WHO), had recently confided to a senior European politician that the most likely explanation was a catastrophic accident at a laboratory in Wuhan, where infections first spread during late 2019.

entire article:








						WHO chief 'believes Covid DID leak from Wuhan lab' after 'accident'
					

The head of the WHO believes Covid spread after a leak from a Wuhan lab, a senior Government source claims. Tedros Adhanom publicly maintains that 'all hypotheses remain'




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> There is a huge difference between a study with only three kids, and a study of 10,000 kids where only three kids developed symptomatic infection.
> 
> Someone with an anti-vax axe to grind has been pulling the wool over your eyes with that only three kids claim.  ”Wait for the placebo group to get sick” is no longer the only way to determine vaccine efficacy.   They can measure the immune response directly.


Very linear thinking on your part.  Sounds like you...after a few years of obvious incomeptenence and activism displayed by the CDC, still believes the CDC is looking out for you and your ulittles best interest.

What the CDC should have tweeted (and what a large portion of the trench dwelling pediatric community believe is that) The CDC endorsed an experimental therapy for developling 6M-5Y based on a study conducted for <3yrs on a ridiculously small sample size becuz long term effects don't matter and you cannot sue for injuries.  

If it's in fact true that the trials were done only on COVID naive ulittles, then shame on the CDC.  Plenty of serovprevalence in this population - some say at least 2/3.  

The ethics are rathe questionable.  Can the CDC and your doctor tell you why this vaccine is neccessary for this population?  Cart before the horse theory?


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Yes.


how?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Neither you nor I get to be in the room for the discussion.
> 
> I just hope it takes place.  Some of the mistakes are best described as “you don’t know what you don’t know”.
> 
> Others are not so excusable.  It took several months to officially recognize the role of aerosol transmission.  Part of that was a reluctance to trigger regulations on air-borne pathogens.  In effect, we said “hospitals didn’t have enough negative pressure rooms, therefore the disease must not be transmitted by air.”
> 
> The “experts” on the other side, such as they are, did worse.  Much of their advice was just straight up denialism.  It will go away like a miracle.  Masks won’t work because the holes are too big.  Case numbers are too small to care about.  The growth isn’t exponential.


It’s not so easy in a free society to eliminate input in policy from citizens, and you know as well as I do that even the experts can vary widely in their risk assessment.

The biggest problem for “experts” are the mistakes they made that will undermine their credibility in the future.
- Taking the Chinese government’s claims at face value.
- Allowing anyone involved the virus research at the lab to be part of the investigation into the origins.
- Dismissing claims without appropriate evidence and smearing any who suggested otherwise.
- Not following their own advice
- Bowing to political pressure from teachers’ unions
- Being spectacularly wrong in some predictions

I’m not optimistic we’ll get to a point of more unified action next time.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> It’s not so easy in a free society to eliminate input in policy from citizens, and you know as well as I do that even the experts can vary widely in their risk assessment.
> 
> The biggest problem for “experts” are the mistakes they made that will undermine their credibility in the future.
> - Taking the Chinese government’s claims at face value.
> - Allowing anyone involved the virus research at the lab to be part of the investigation into the origins.
> - Dismissing claims without appropriate evidence and smearing any who suggested otherwise.
> - Not following their own advice
> - Bowing to political pressure from teachers’ unions
> - Being spectacularly wrong in some predictions
> 
> I’m not optimistic we’ll get to a point of more unified action next time.


It wasn't just their risk assessment, but more so the fact that they ignored the different risk profiles and designed "one size fits all" policies.   These policies took the emphasis off the most vulnerable and caused significant collateral damage to the least, or not, vulnerable.

The "boy who cried wolf" is going to be the mentality for the next pandemic which could have catastrophic effects.


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> It wasn't just their risk assessment, but more so the fact that they ignored the different risk profiles and designed "one size fits all" policies.   These policies took the emphasis off the most vulnerable and caused significant collateral damage to the least, or not, vulnerable.
> 
> The "boy who cried wolf" is going to be the mentality for the next pandemic which could have catastrophic effects.


Terribly misguided policies. 

We locked down people with no real risk. 
We shut down businesses
We shuttered schools

We know who was at risk within the first 30-45 days and yet shut down everything. 

It is fascinating that some people still defend the indefensible.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> It is fascinating that some people still defend the indefensible.


Some people can't stand in someone else's shoes.  Some people (like introverts and those that got paid for not working) weren't impacted by the restrictions.  Some fearful adults put their needs above those of children.  Some people just liked the power and control.  It's incredibly ironic who some think are the selfish people.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It wasn't just their risk assessment, but more so the fact that they ignored the different risk profiles and designed "one size fits all" policies.   These policies took the emphasis off the most vulnerable and caused significant collateral damage to the least, or not, vulnerable.
> 
> The "boy who cried wolf" is going to be the mentality for the next pandemic which could have catastrophic effects.


Policy making blurs into expert opinions but we are better off NOT having subject matter experts make policy. The very fact that they are an expert in a given area makes it less likely they are capable of a measured assessment of all risk. Unfortunately, political partisanship is much more common than the wisdom necessary to approach these policy decisions while considering all the risks involved.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Policy making blurs into expert opinions but we are better off NOT having subject matter experts make policy. The very fact that they are an expert in a given area makes it less likely they are capable of a measured assessment of all risk. Unfortunately, political partisanship is much more common than the wisdom necessary to approach these policy decisions while considering all the risks involved.


The experts consulted with the powers that be at the time. The policy we got sent us down a dark road of denial, deflection, distraction and dewormer.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> The experts consulted with the powers that be at the time. The policy we got sent us down a dark road of denial, deflection, distraction and dewormer.


“Dewormer”. That statement alone proves your ignorance and hypocrisy in terms of denial and disinformation.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Policy making blurs into expert opinions but we are better off NOT having subject matter experts make policy. The very fact that they are an expert in a given area makes it less likely they are capable of a measured assessment of all risk. Unfortunately, political partisanship is much more common than the wisdom necessary to approach these policy decisions while considering all the risks involved.


The experts, by and large, did ok.  

For example, cloth masks were a quite reasonable measure against the strains in circulation in April of 2020.  R0 was only 2-3 back then.  You didn’t need much.  You just had to do it consistently.

Unfortunately, we had a national disinformation campaign dedicated to talking people out of wearing the masks.  A few thousand epidemiologists and air quality engineers aren‘t going to out-shout Fox News.  So we had maybe 50% compliance.  People would wear a mask at the grocer, but not when friends arrive for dinner.

That doesn’t mean the original advice was bad.  Most advice fails when you don’t follow it.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> “Dewormer”. That statement alone proves your ignorance and hypocrisy in terms of denial and disinformation.


Ivermectin is a deworming agent.  It’s also a neurotoxin.  

Even if it had turned out to be a great covid treatment, Trump was out of place to be talking it up.   He has none of the qualifications needed to evaluate any drug, let alone one with potentially fatal side effects.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Ivermectin is a deworming agent.  It’s also a neurotoxin.
> 
> Even if it had turned out to be a great covid treatment, Trump was out of place to be talking it up.   He has none of the qualifications needed to evaluate any drug, let alone one with potentially fatal side effects.


OK…..not like Japan, India and several Dr’s in the US weren’t using it as an integral part of their treatments.  I guess the FDA never approved it for humans, right?

Trump said this so it must be that….love your logic.  You just can’t get past what the mean Orange man says can you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> OK…..not like Japan, India and several Dr’s in the US weren’t using it as an integral part of their treatments.  I guess the FDA never approved it for humans, right?
> 
> Trump said this so it must be that….love your logic.  You just can’t get past what the mean Orange man says can you.


You get awfully sensitive when it comes to Trump (now capitalized as to not purposely offend the true believers, the devotees, the followers, the cult. Aka those that hope we ignore his lunacy and their pious fervor towards all that is Trump!).


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Policy making blurs into expert opinions but we are better off NOT having subject matter experts make policy. The very fact that they are an expert in a given area makes it less likely they are capable of a measured assessment of all risk. Unfortunately, political partisanship is much more common than the wisdom necessary to approach these policy decisions while considering all the risks involved.


I'm OK with having these subject matter experts sitting at the table, but they're too myopic to be driving policy.  One of Trump's biggest mistakes was allowing Fauci to continue to drive the Covid bus after the 1st couple months.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> OK…..not like Japan, India and several Dr’s in the US weren’t using it as an integral part of their treatments.  I guess the FDA never approved it for humans, right?
> 
> Trump said this so it must be that….love your logic.  You just can’t get past what the mean Orange man says can you.


Ivermectin actually is a good idea in India.  It is a powerful drug against parasites, and covid patients in India are more likely to have parasites.  

But, whether it is a good drug or not, Trump was out of place.  He doesn't know anything about drug safety.

I can't believe you guys are willing to trust a reality TV real estate developer about which drugs are safe, but don't respect the results of the FDA process.  

You have it totally backwards.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> The experts, by and large, did ok.
> 
> For example, cloth masks were a quite reasonable measure against the strains in circulation in April of 2020.  R0 was only 2-3 back then.  You didn’t need much.  You just had to do it consistently.
> 
> Unfortunately, we had a national disinformation campaign dedicated to talking people out of wearing the masks.  A few thousand epidemiologists and air quality engineers aren‘t going to out-shout Fox News.  So we had maybe 50% compliance.  *People would wear a mask at the grocer, but not when friends arrive for dinner.*
> 
> That doesn’t mean the original advice was bad.  Most advice fails when you don’t follow it.


how exactly are you supposed to eat dinner with friends that have masks on?  

What is the R now, and does it matter? And yes, I agree the experts did OK.(ones not bullied by the media or high on the idea they were on the media).  Novelty is difficult to deal with - throw politics into the mix and you get the great 2021 Covid response.  I would argue there was way less than 50% compliance, if you factor in mask fit and mask material.  Masking at best was a decent attempt at addressing anxiety.  Taking an hour to eat a peanut while in flight defeats the purpose of masking.  

If I were you I'd argue harder that better early vaccine adoption would have saved more lives amongst the at risk population. Simulataneously some decent health messaging could still be saving lives.  Way too many at risk people shoving whoppers and big macs down their throat.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The experts, by and large, did ok.
> 
> For example, cloth masks were a quite reasonable measure against the strains in circulation in April of 2020.  R0 was only 2-3 back then.  You didn’t need much.  You just had to do it consistently.
> 
> Unfortunately, we had a national disinformation campaign dedicated to talking people out of wearing the masks.  A few thousand epidemiologists and air quality engineers aren‘t going to out-shout Fox News.  So we had maybe 50% compliance.  People would wear a mask at the grocer, but not when friends arrive for dinner.
> 
> That doesn’t mean the original advice was bad.  Most advice fails when you don’t follow it.


Masks were a "side-show" and largely irrelevant either way.  Good debate fodder, but not much more.  Just FYI mask compliance was much greater than 50%.  If you didn't wear a mask where mandated you weren't getting into whatever public indoor place you were soliciting.  Other than on a rare occasion, everyone was wearing masks where required, at least the places I visited.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Ivermectin actually is a good idea in India.  It is a powerful drug against parasites, and covid patients in India are more likely to have parasites.
> 
> But, whether it is a good drug or not, Trump was out of place.  He doesn't know anything about drug safety.
> 
> I can't believe you guys are willing to trust a reality TV real estate developer about which drugs are safe, but don't respect the results of the FDA process.
> 
> You have it totally backwards.


Most people who took ivm and continue to take ivm are taking it at the direction of their health professional.  Really safe drug with few to zero bad side effects.  Even with the BS deworming messaging, ivm prescriptions happened/are happening.  I really don't know what the big deal was/is with ivm....beyond just a basic hatred of trumpy.  For many, many people afflicted with terminal tds, he could say the sky is blue and not be believed.  His fault for the path he chose..non tds folks are likely smart enough to make their own assessments and not 100% rely on the government for advice.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> I would argue there was way less than 50% compliance, if you factor in mask fit and mask material.  Masking at best was a decent attempt at addressing anxiety.


But eating with your mask down was being compliant with the mandates (ignoring those taking an hour) .  That's another reason the policies were so frivolous.  Masks were symbolic and not preventative.  (and when I say masks I mean masking mandates for the general public).


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The experts, by and large, did ok.


I suppose everyone has their own definition of “ok”.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> That doesn’t mean the original advice was bad.  Most advice fails when you don’t follow it.


Ok, back to being more “Asian”, or “Mormon” I see.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, back to being more “Asian”, or “Mormon” I see.


You think only Asians and Mormons are capable of organizing an outdoor dinner party?

It really isn’t that hard.  You just put the cups and plates outside on the picnic table instead of inside at the dining room table.

Most places, you need to check the weather first.  You’re in socal, so you can skip that step.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You think only Asians and Mormons are capable of organizing an outdoor dinner party?
> 
> It really isn’t that hard.  You just put the cups and plates outside on the picnic table instead of inside at the dining room table.
> 
> Most places, you need to check the weather first.  You’re in socal, so you can skip that step.


We had outdoor, semi distanced, BYOB, driveway cocktail parties starting about 2 weeks after the lockdown.  The looks and words of condemnation from our neighbors were pretty classic.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> We had outdoor, semi distanced, BYOB, driveway cocktail parties starting about 2 weeks after the lockdown.  The looks and words of condemnation from our neighbors were pretty classic.


Turns out, that was the right thing.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Turns out, that was the right thing.


Morphed into just outdoor parties and then return to normal.  I think it was a HS basketball game that finally caught up to me.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I'm OK with having these subject matter experts sitting at the table, but they're too myopic to be driving policy.  One of Trump's biggest mistakes was allowing Fauci to continue to drive the Covid bus after the 1st couple months.


If you read the Atlas book it wasn't Fauci who was driving the Covid bus.   It was Birx...who came up with everything from the mask policy reversal to the outdoor shutdowns.  Fauci was primarily responsible for the vaccine/drug response (Which he heavily slanted towards vaccines) but he was constantly injecting himself in the discussion to run interference for others.  Birx in turn was basically given free reign by Mike Pence, who Trump put in charge of the coronavirus response, and was convinced Birx was "MAGA through and through"...Pence showed little inclination to challenge experts or ask questions, often depicted as being bored with the response and deferring to Birx to run the meetings.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> You get awfully sensitive when it comes to Trump (now capitalized as to not purposely offend the true believers, the devotees, the followers, the cult. Aka those that hope we ignore his lunacy and their pious fervor towards all that is Trump!).


The sarcasm in the “Trump” comment is completely lost on you.  But I should have expected that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You’re in socal, so you can skip that step.


C'mon, @dad4, we are SC county neighbors.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> C'mon, @dad4, we are SC county neighbors.


In that case, hold the BBQ as soon as you get back from Seattle.  If you wait until August, the air will be full of smoke and we’ll all be inside again.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> In that case, hold the BBQ as soon as you get back from Seattle.  If you wait until August, the air will be full of smoke and we’ll all be inside again.


We do have that to look forward to.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The sarcasm in the “Trump” comment is completely lost on you.  But I should have expected that.


Yes, yes, you really are the riddler.


----------



## Multi Sport

Happened again said:


> what does that have to do with anything?


It's what E does. Post crap about what he does then  point his finger at others for doing it.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Baldref thinks people getting sick is funny.


No. Your post are funny. Unintentionally funny because you think you're so smart.


----------



## Multi Sport

thirteenknots said:


> It's no adventure, it's a Criminal Pox you supported.
> When no one is around except just you and the rear
> of your eyelids, the TRUTH faces YOU back.
> Sleep tight Adam Espola Schiff, it's honesty you lack.


Truth bomb!


----------



## N00B

Not super relevant.. other than a reminder of perception when assigning the label ‘expert’, which applies across the board.  Mostly sharing as it made me laugh…


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> Not super relevant.. other than a reminder of perception when assigning the label ‘expert’, which applies across the board.  Mostly sharing as it made me laugh…
> 
> View attachment 13982


Apparently Nye is a much better salesman.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> Not super relevant.. other than a reminder of perception when assigning the label ‘expert’, which applies across the board.  Mostly sharing as it made me laugh…
> 
> View attachment 13982


What does "exponentially" mean here?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Apparently Nye is a much better salesman.


Dolph is a wise man, smart investor. And how is Bill Nye relevant? He must of went against the supreme leader in some way.


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> What does "exponentially" mean here?


What does ‘funny’ mean here?


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Dolph is a wise man, smart investor. And how is Bill Nye relevant? He must of went against the supreme leader in some way.


WTF are you talking about?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> View attachment 13989


Your lack of awareness isn’t my issue.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your lack of awareness isn’t my issue.


You’re right, your lack of awareness is your issue!


----------



## NorCalDad

N00B said:


> Not super relevant.. other than a reminder of perception when assigning the label ‘expert’, which applies across the board.  Mostly sharing as it made me laugh…
> 
> View attachment 13982


Hey wait a minute now @N00B.....He didn't really get a degree from WSU...but everything else checks out: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bill-nye-vs-dolph-lundgren/

Maybe Rocky was right....he could be a machine...


----------



## crush

*SCOREBOARD UPDATE!!!
6-3, babies win!!!!
*


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> *SCOREBOARD UPDATE!!!
> 6-3, babies win!!!!*


States win.  What they do with that is up to them.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> States win.  What they do with that is up to them.


----------



## espola

crush said:


> *SCOREBOARD UPDATE!!!
> 6-3, babies win!!!!
> View attachment 13990*


crush lied


----------



## crush

espola said:


> crush lied


----------



## crush

To all my pals and those who get me.  Thank you for all the well wishes through my back channel the last few weeks and today   Look,* promises are made to broken* and we all know a few Docs and coaches who have broken so many promises in youth soccer that I am aloud to break a few as well.  I also said I reserve the right to change my mind anytime I want. It's my life so too bad Gramps! I also said I could come back when breaking news hit.  6-3 upset victory by the babies is huge!!!  I have to go visit my best pal at Loma Linda Medical Center now and will be offline. He had a second heart attack and things are not looking good. Please pray for him. His name is Pierre and he has 4 daughters and a son and a wife who are in pain. Amazing father and husband.  He also got fired two days before the attack and I was helping him on the phone to stay positive and not give up. I am not making this up either.  It's a long story you guys.  6/24/2022 ((666)) is when the 10 days of darkness starts. Buckle up and watch out and be careful in big crowds. Talk about people losing their minds over life and death is insane.  I love you all and I knew this day would happen.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Apparently Nye is a much better salesman.


Nye is an actor in a TV show for kids.

Nye’s relationship to science is the same a TV weather girl’s relationship to climate forecasting.  

Maybe the meme writers will go after Captain Kangaroo next.  I hear his Navy resume isn’t up to snuff.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nye is an actor in a TV show for kids.
> 
> Nye’s relationship to science is the same a TV weather girl’s relationship to climate forecasting.
> 
> Maybe the meme writers will go after Captain Kangaroo next.  I hear his Navy resume isn’t up to snuff.


I think that's Captain Crunch but I understand your point, although Captain Kangaroo and Captain Crunch are fictional characters.   While I agree with your claims about him, he doesn't consider himself an actor.  He portrays himself as a serious scientist, and others hold him out as such when he agrees with them.  Nye in particular portrays himself as an expert on climate change.   The kids show was just the beginning, he has moved way beyond that into adult science books, programs and organizations.

But then again it was just a meme, which are meant to poke fun, often to contrast absurdities in our culture.  Many times they take a grain of truth and magnify it.  They aren't to be taken seriously.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I think that's Captain Crunch but I understand your point, although Captain Kangaroo and Captain Crunch are fictional characters.   While I agree with your claims about him, he doesn't consider himself an actor.  He portrays himself as a serious scientist, and others hold him out as such when he agrees with them.  Nye in particular portrays himself as an expert on climate change.   The kids show was just the beginning, he has moved way beyond that into adult science books, programs and organizations.
> 
> But then again it was just a meme, which are meant to poke fun, often to contrast absurdities in our culture.  Many times they take a grain of truth and magnify it.  They aren't to be taken seriously.


I know someone who worked on Nye’s show.  Relative to actual scientists, Nye is a nitwit.  

Not where I’d go for scientific backing for public policy.  The actual climate scientists have been very clear, and mostly accurate.  

Or, if you prefer, you could ask Doctor Science.  He knows more than you do.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> *SCOREBOARD UPDATE!!!
> 6-3, babies win!!!!
> View attachment 13990*


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


>


Yo, the hospital wouldn't let me in without a rapid test up my nose ((brain)) so I will wait and pray and not pay to play to see my dying best friend. I watched first 10 seconds of this video and it's not for me at all.  I like this one from Truth.  It's only .17 seconds.  









						Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I think that's Captain Crunch but I understand your point, although Captain Kangaroo and Captain Crunch are fictional characters.   While I agree with your claims about him, he doesn't consider himself an actor.  He portrays himself as a serious scientist, and others hold him out as such when he agrees with them.  Nye in particular portrays himself as an expert on climate change.   The kids show was just the beginning, he has moved way beyond that into adult science books, programs and organizations.
> 
> But then again it was just a meme, which are meant to poke fun, often to contrast absurdities in our culture.  Many times they take a grain of truth and magnify it.  They aren't to be taken seriously.


And Tucker Carlson portrays himself as a news reporter, an honest broker of fact. Which we all know he is not. Serious scientist and serious news reporters don’t do media entertainment shows, but they will do guest appearances.


----------



## Multi Sport

N00B said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> View attachment 13989


Half the time Ratboy is drunk when he post. That's the only logical explanation..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Multi Sport said:


> Half the time Ratboy is drunk when he post. That's the only logical explanation..


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13996


Wow. Using the same meme twice..how unoriginal can you be. Oh wait.. you probably were unaware that you posted it twice, you know, you being drunk and all. 

But look on the good side Sunshine.  Your one bender into the weekend!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Multi Sport said:


> Wow. Using the same meme twice..how unoriginal can you be. Oh wait.. you probably were unaware that you posted it twice, you know, you being drunk and all.
> 
> But look on the good side Sunshine.  Your one bender into the weekend!


Hey, when the cue card says “Post meme” and he posts a meme, all his caretakers consider that a win.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Multi Sport said:


> Wow. Using the same meme twice..how unoriginal can you be. Oh wait.. you probably were unaware that you posted it twice, you know, you being drunk and all.
> 
> But look on the good side Sunshine.  Your one bender into the weekend!


When the label applies.


----------



## crush

Q just posted for the first time since 12/08/2020.

Q post 4954- "shall we play a game once more?"

Anon ask Q for a bone- "Throw us a Q bone, we've been waiting for what seemed like an eternity. What's going on?

Q post 4955- "it had to be done this way."

Boom!!!

Get popcorn and pizza. I go veggie pizza, so good.  You guys, I love you all. It;s not your fault. You got played!!!  Follow Truth and follow Q.  This is amazing day.


----------



## Multi Sport

Hüsker Dü said:


> When the label applies.


Oh good one...where did you come up with that one?

But did something trigger you today? You seem extra sensitive today Sunshine.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I'm OK with having these subject matter experts sitting at the table, but they're too myopic to be driving policy.  One of Trump's biggest mistakes was allowing Fauci to continue to drive the Covid bus after the 1st couple months.


Little while ago I said it was important to have the science insulated from the policy.  Some people laughed.  I don't care about Fauci and I sure don't give a rat's ass about Trump.  But the people collecting data and conducting experiments need to be insulated from policymakers.  Myopic is actually a focus on the next election cycle.  And that's the way it's supposed to be.  If you are looking at it the other way around ask yourself, "well, why did Trump keep Fauci"?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> But then again it was just a meme, which are meant to poke fun, often to contrast absurdities in our culture.  Many times they take a grain of truth and magnify it.  They aren't to be taken seriously.


Some meme fits your lighthearted view.  Much does not.  It is purposely created and injected into social media to drive polarization.  Ever wonder where a lot of that stuff comes from and who takes the time to make it?


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Some meme fits your lighthearted view.  Much does not.  It is purposely created and injected into social media to drive polarization.  Ever wonder where a lot of that stuff comes from and who takes the time If to make it?


If people are being polarized by memes we have much greater problems than polarization.  But I guess its possible that its the same people that get paralyzingly offended by Gervais and Chappelle.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> If people are being polarized by memes we have much greater problems than polarization.  But I guess its possible that its the same people that get paralyzingly offended by Gervais and Chappelle.


No, the memes don't create polarization.  But they have evolved into simple but effective tools to amplify and steer it towards desired directions. Lenny Bruce, that comedic genre, being offensive in a subversive way to get people uncomfortable, push social commentary, that's different. Meme is just a unit of culture.  But it is increasingly being used by state actors in a manipulative way; a more sophisticated version of leaflets dropped from planes.  And it is just one of several such tools for information warfare. A divisive news story hits, count the moments before the meme floods the zone. Take it out of the American political context.  The Tiawanese government has a meme warfare team whose (purported) purpose is to respond rapidly to meme attacks by China.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No, the memes don't create polarization.  But they have evolved into simple but effective tools to amplify and steer it towards desired directions. Lenny Bruce, that comedic genre, being offensive in a subversive way to get people uncomfortable, push social commentary, that's different. Meme is just a unit of culture.  But it is increasingly being used by state actors in a manipulative way; a more sophisticated version of leaflets dropped from planes.  And it is just one of several such tools for information warfare. A divisive news story hits, count the moments before the meme floods the zone. Take it out of the American political context.  The Tiawanese government has a meme warfare team whose (purported) purpose is to respond rapidly to meme attacks by China.


----------



## crush

*Babies win all the time you losers who support death over life and cheating to win. Losers who cheat to win at life or soccer are truly losers!!!*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Yeshua is here for anyone 24 hours a day.  Time to wash your sins away!!! Oh Happy Day!!!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> *Babies win all the time you losers who support death over life and cheating to win. Losers who cheat to win at life or soccer are truly losers!!!*


Ah Mr. Crush.  Cheating, lying, making promises with the full intention of breaking them.  Basic human bullshit. But rationalizing it in the service of some larger Truth.  Now that is special.  I still feel I chose my St. Petersburg spirit guide wisely. Because it takes a true believer to represent it in a compelling way.  Anyway, I'm up in N MI and I'm going to teach my daughter to fish while you soak up the poison and show it to me.  I'll take that L everyday.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> No, the memes don't create polarization.  But they have evolved into simple but effective tools to amplify and steer it towards desired directions. Lenny Bruce, that comedic genre, being offensive in a subversive way to get people uncomfortable, push social commentary, that's different. Meme is just a unit of culture.  But it is increasingly being used by state actors in a manipulative way; a more sophisticated version of leaflets dropped from planes.  And it is just one of several such tools for information warfare. A divisive news story hits, count the moments before the meme floods the zone. Take it out of the American political context.  The Tiawanese government has a meme warfare team whose (purported) purpose is to respond rapidly to meme attacks by China.


Same conclusion, if people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by memes we have some serious problems.  Bruce certainly was on the forefront of a "comedic" genre, unfortunately he was a drug-addled scammer so his social commentary was easily dismissed or not taken seriously.   He was really only relevant to the counterculture.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Same conclusion, if people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by memes we have some serious problems.  Bruce certainly was on the forefront of a "comedic" genre, unfortunately he was a drug-addled scammer so his social commentary was easily dismissed or not taken seriously.   He was really only relevant to the counterculture.


I should say he was only relevant, "at the time" to the counterculture.  He has influenced many comedians since then.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Little while ago I said it was important to have the science insulated from the policy.  Some people laughed.  I don't care about Fauci and I sure don't give a rat's ass about Trump.  But the people collecting data and conducting experiments need to be insulated from policymakers.  Myopic is actually a focus on the next election cycle.  And that's the way it's supposed to be.  If you are looking at it the other way around ask yourself, "well, why did Trump keep Fauci"?


You have three issues:

1. it’s deeply undemocratic.  You are basically saying you don’t trust the people to make judgements based on the facts and therefore they need to be protected from themselves by the experts. What is the name of this power plant?

2. the experts are myopic.  The health experts made decisions based only on public health.  They didn’t weigh the economic costs and didn’t weigh what happened to children and education. What’s worse is the type of person who goes into that line of work is already highly risk adverse so you get stupid recommendations like don’t eat your meat rare or don’t eat cookie dough

3.Things are so polarized even the experts are tainted. So that’s why you got some experts telling close the beaches but then turned around and said blm protests were ok. It’s why you had the school reopening guidelines turned over to the teachers union

A technocracy only works with experts that are open minded, rational, untainted and uncorrupted.  Those conditions don’t exist in the real world. It’s a utopian fantasy that benefits a certain class of people by puffing up their own societal status.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You have three issues:
> 
> 1. it’s deeply undemocratic.  You are basically saying you don’t trust the people to make judgements based on the facts and therefore they need to be protected from themselves by the experts. What is the name of this power plant?
> 
> 2. the experts are myopic.  The health experts made decisions based only on public health.  They didn’t weigh the economic costs and didn’t weigh what happened to children and education. What’s worse is the type of person who goes into that line of work is already highly risk adverse so you get stupid recommendations like don’t eat your meat rare or don’t eat cookie dough
> 
> 3.Things are so polarized even the experts are tainted. So that’s why you got some experts telling close the beaches but then turned around and said blm protests were ok. It’s why you had the school reopening guidelines turned over to the teachers union
> 
> A technocracy only works with experts that are open minded, rational, untainted and uncorrupted.  Those conditions don’t exist in the real world. It’s a utopian fantasy that benefits a certain class of people by puffing up their own societal status.


I think those are your issues, not his.

Blanket dismissal of subject matter experts with a one word perjorative?  That, to be sure, is _your_ wheelhouse.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> You have three issues:
> 
> 1. it’s deeply undemocratic.  You are basically saying you don’t trust the people to make judgements based on the facts and therefore they need to be protected from themselves by the experts. What is the name of this power plant?
> 
> 2. the experts are myopic.  The health experts made decisions based only on public health.  They didn’t weigh the economic costs and didn’t weigh what happened to children and education. What’s worse is the type of person who goes into that line of work is already highly risk adverse so you get stupid recommendations like don’t eat your meat rare or don’t eat cookie dough
> 
> 3.Things are so polarized even the experts are tainted. So that’s why you got some experts telling close the beaches but then turned around and said blm protests were ok. It’s why you had the school reopening guidelines turned over to the teachers union
> 
> A technocracy only works with experts that are open minded, rational, untainted and uncorrupted.  Those conditions don’t exist in the real world. It’s a utopian fantasy that benefits a certain class of people by puffing up their own societal status.


Just three?  

1) Not sure what you are talking about.  People are going to do what they want to do.  Increasingly.  Back side of the sign doesn't say nothing. And we will see this in future eruptions.  A more regional approach to health recommendations.  More variables in the models. To the extent it matters.

2) Nope.  It's not a "health expert's" (whatever that is exactly, epidemiologist maybe) job to do the economics and balance all the stuff you get so worked up about.  That is an elected official's job, balance the inputs.  The science must be insulated from these necessary creatures. So if you don't like them you can vote them out. At least for the moment. People like Fauci are not health experts.  He's not close to the data at all. Hasn't been for decades. He's a political middleman, an insulator of sorts.  The question stands "If he is the devil incarnate why did Trump keep him".  

3) The polarization will almost certainly get worse. And then maybe it will get better and maybe it won't.  If "experts" are your boogeymen that's convenient but the fault is collectively ours.  But there's always surprises.  Huge winds farms across 1-80 through Iowa.  I mean, it made Palm Springs look like a dog and pony show.  Power ebbs and flows.

I'll rewrite this as I see it.  "A technocracy (Dodging the politics of eternity that we've managed, against great odds, to keep at bay for ~250 yrs) only works with experts (a citizenry and political structure) that is open minded, rational, untainted and uncorrupted.  Those conditions (increasingly) don’t exist in the real world. It’s (become) utopian fantasy (a system of power and wealth accumulation) that benefits a certain class of people puffing up their own societal status (who have become adroit at using smoke and mirrors and getting people to look at little screens).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> What’s worse is the type of person who goes into that line of work is already highly risk adverse so you get stupid recommendations like don’t eat your meat rare or don’t eat cookie dough


I don't trust people that order a nice cut of beef, well done.  What's the point?  It's like driving a Ferrari the speed limit.  Maybe they should just have the chicken.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> drug-addled scammer


Well, you're the one that brought up Chapelle. The drugs tend to come with the territory when you're on that edge. I agree with you in a sense, however.  If you-personally, not as a nation-state-don't want to be manipulated, get offline.  I highly recommend highway 24 through Utah for perspective.  "Exposed unconformities". Little geologic peeks through cracks in time.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Just three?
> 
> 1) Not sure what you are talking about.  People are going to do what they want to do.  Increasingly.  Back side of the sign doesn't say nothing. And we will see this in future eruptions.  A more regional approach to health recommendations.  More variables in the models. To the extent it matters.
> 
> 2) Nope.  It's not a "health expert's" (whatever that is exactly, epidemiologist maybe) job to do the economics and balance all the stuff you get so worked up about.  That is an elected official's job, balance the inputs.  The science must be insulated from these necessary creatures. So if you don't like them you can vote them out. At least for the moment. People like Fauci are not health experts.  He's not close to the data at all. Hasn't been for decades. He's a political middleman, an insulator of sorts.  The question stands "If he is the devil incarnate why did Trump keep him".
> 
> 3) The polarization will almost certainly get worse. And then maybe it will get better and maybe it won't.  If "experts" are your boogeymen that's convenient but the fault is collectively ours.  But there's always surprises.  Huge winds farms across 1-80 through Iowa.  I mean, it made Palm Springs look like a dog and pony show.  Power ebbs and flows.
> 
> I'll rewrite this as I see it.  "A technocracy (Dodging the politics of eternity that we've managed, against great odds, to keep at bay for ~250 yrs) only works with experts (a citizenry and political structure) that is open minded, rational, untainted and uncorrupted.  Those conditions (increasingly) don’t exist in the real world. It’s (become) utopian fantasy (a system of power and wealth accumulation) that benefits a certain class of people puffing up their own societal status (who have become adroit at using smoke and mirrors and getting people to look at little screens).


Ah there’s our disconnect. You view an expert as someone truly devoted to their field and as a result limited in their scope of expertise…a true scientist. I’m using the term to encompass the unelected bureaucrats like fauci. Then you have dad 4s definition (which is anyone that agrees with him with a credential…everyone else is a snake oil salesman)

there were a couple issues with trump firing fauci.  At first trump went mostly in with the experts and deferred most of his planning to pence…as atlas has written too it wasn’t fauci in the drivers seat but birx.  Trump was slow to realize that the entire control the virus had gotten away from him and he didn’t have the smarts to figure out how to get out of the box and was distracted by the election (hence atlas). By the time he wanted to fire fauci it was too late…the blues had rallied to him as an anti trump superhero. Firing a bureaucrat like that would have also been legally tricky….the system is designed not to give politicians that power…it’s to stop the 18th century corruptions we had in place. He didn’t have the political power to do it (given his tenuous place with the election…remember the letter they all signed…it would have led to mass resignations and triggered a crisis with pence too who was running the thing) and it would have been legally dubious (a Vat of oil he was reserving for bigger fish as we all saw play out). After the election, had he won, there’s no doubt in my mind either he would have done it outright or forced fauci to resign.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well, you're the one that brought up Chapelle. The drugs tend to come with the territory when you're on that edge. I agree with you in a sense, however.  If you-personally, not as a nation-state-don't want to be manipulated, get offline.  I highly recommend highway 24 through Utah for perspective.  "Exposed unconformities". Little geologic peeks through cracks in time.


Chappelle is hardly drug-addled, you can't even compare the two.  Big difference between some weeds and shrooms vs. heroin and meth on a daily basis.

Unfortunately your right, we have a generation that is getting their news from Twitter, Tik-Tok, Etc.  Personally I think it started a decade or two ago with young people getting their news from The Daily Show., 

Capitol Reef area is beautiful but I personally prefer Mirror Lake Highway through the Uintas.  In both cases I prefer getting off the highway and onto the trails.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Ah Mr. Crush.  Cheating, lying, making promises with the full intention of breaking them.  Basic human bullshit. But rationalizing it in the service of some larger Truth.  Now that is special.  I still feel I chose my St. Petersburg spirit guide wisely. Because it takes a true believer to represent it in a compelling way.  Anyway, I'm up in N MI and I'm going to teach my daughter to fish while you soak up the poison and show it to me.  I'll take that L everyday.


Fly Sprit, fly. I'm happy you can spend time fishing with your dd, 100%. That is special. Babies win and the liars still lie is special to me.  Sorry for my broken promise and I see how you and Espola have accused me of lying. I broke a promise with one of these* next to it.  *I reserve the right to come back anytime I want, even if I verbally tell you and your lying Elk I will never come back to the forum.  I also said if news gets "hot" I will come back and make a cameo.  Plus, many of my fellow brethren on here PM me hundreds of PMs every week and it's not easy to get back to folks. To all those waiting on a response PM, It's too much work to answer are your Q's. I came back because Roe ((who lied about being raped)) v Wade got put back in it's place and now each State will decided how many weeks is too many weeks to kill your baby.  California is 6 months and like I said, If you want to tap into a growing business, become a nurse or Dr. Everyone West of the Missippi will come here for on demand abortion up to 6 months.  We might go all the way to 9 months. Insane but if my beautiful amazing State votes for that, I can;t stop it.  Dick will pay up $4,000 for anyone or friend to abort baby.  Oh, Amazon as well.  I think Dick saves money this way and keeps his worker at work and not taking care of a baby.


----------



## NorCalDad

crush said:


> Yo, the hospital wouldn't let me in without a rapid test up my nose ((brain)) so I will wait and pray and not pay to play to see my dying best friend. I watched first 10 seconds of this video and it's not for me at all.  I like this one from Truth.  It's only .17 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth Social
> 
> 
> Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> truthsocial.com


Ahhh you only like Carlin when he's railing against people with views you disagree with.  Got it. 

Good luck Crush on your anti-woman crusade.  

No way in hell am I ever going to click anything with "Truth Social" in it.   I might have to lose some brain cells first.  What's your trick?  Cocaine?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Same conclusion, if people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by memes we have some serious problems.  Bruce certainly was on the forefront of a "comedic" genre, unfortunately he was a drug-addled scammer so his social commentary was easily dismissed or not taken seriously.   He was really only relevant to the counterculture.


Would you say we are in trouble if people follow Alex Jones and Q?


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Ahhh you only like Carlin when he's railing against people with views you disagree with.  Got it.
> 
> Good luck Crush on your anti-woman crusade.
> 
> No way in hell am I ever going to click anything with "Truth Social" in it.   I might have to lose some brain cells first.  What's your trick?  Cocaine?


I never said I didn't like Carlin, I didn't like the video you sent and frankly have no time for those types of dumb jokes. I like my type of jokes and if Carlin speaks to my heart, then I like. That is me being honest. Bruh, your asking me to take 7 minutes out of my busy life to listen to those types of jokes? No way. For example, I got to see my best friend today. He was in my wedding. Cool bro 100%. He did not like t either by the way and he still loves me and I love him. Please please pray he comes back. No brain activity and they already know he has brain damage. I love women by the way. I want each State to come up with their own rules. That is fair 100%. Thanks for talking to me after a year. I know I told you to, you know, you know what and I what to apologized for that. Did you forgive me? Truth is dope bro by the way. I had a very cool conversation with a Satanist last night, no joke. Long exchange but he wanted to know if forgiveness is available for those who sold their soul or spoke blasphemy and something else I forget about. He said he has never harmed anyone, just himself. Dude was honest and truthful and said he wants to help and do better. He likes my posts and I liked one of his. Super deep stuff about forgiveness and things I've never read before. It was spooky, yet I though he was a hardcore follow of Christ. Dude knows the Bible better then folks I went to church with. He said Heaven morns everyday for Lucifer and his big fight with God and they pray for peace and that the Devil would be granted forgiveness when this is over with.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Would you say we are in trouble if people follow Alex Jones and Q?


100%.  Alex Jones and the Qanon people are nutjobs.  Fortunately they represent a very small minority.  Out of curiosity where does one go to follow Q?  I've never stumbled across any Qanon propaganda on the internet.  Not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't know that they have much reach other than what the MSM has given them.  I can certainly see Qanon people being influenced by a meme, they're not the sharpest tools in the shed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Ahhh you only like Carlin when he's railing against people with views you disagree with.  Got it.
> 
> Good luck Crush on your anti-woman crusade.
> 
> No way in hell am I ever going to click anything with "Truth Social" in it.   I might have to lose some brain cells first.  What's your trick?  Cocaine?


I know some NA/AAA addicts that are all in on anything trump, trumpy or trumpist. A lot of those types in the SD East county and in construction.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> 100%.  Alex Jones and the Qanon people are nutjobs.  Fortunately they represent a very small minority.  Out of curiosity where does one go to follow Q?  I've never stumbled across any Qanon propaganda on the internet.  Not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't know that they have much reach other than what the MSM has given them.


We are currently estranged from a few friends, some mine (mostly east county) some the wives (Texas, South Carolina, Florida and a relative in Mississippi), that turned hard Q. Those people are passionate about their beliefs. So yeah they are out there as is the rhetoric. There are also those that use all the terminology yet claim no knowledge of anything Q . . . as they insist you “do the research, the threat is real, trump is fighting the good fight against the deep state cabal!”
Then there is “Pastel QAnon” designed to appeal to women.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> 100%.  Alex Jones and the Qanon people are nutjobs.  Fortunately they represent a very small minority.  Out of curiosity where does one go to follow Q?  I've never stumbled across any Qanon propaganda on the internet.  Not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't know that they have much reach other than what the MSM has given them.  I can certainly see Qanon people being influenced by a meme, they're not the sharpest tools in the shed.











						QAnon: A Glossary | ADL
					

QAnon,the sprawling, convoluted conspiracy theory, hasits own language.




					www.adl.org


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> Would you say we are in trouble if people follow Alex Jones and Q?


Would you say were in trouble if people follow George Soros and ANTIFA?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Would you say were in trouble if people follow George Soros and ANTIFA?


I don't think that's a real thing.  I know people who follow Alex Jones....


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> 100%.  Alex Jones and the Qanon people are nutjobs.  Fortunately they represent a very small minority.  Out of curiosity where does one go to follow Q?  I've never stumbled across any Qanon propaganda on the internet.  Not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't know that they have much reach other than what the MSM has given them.  I can certainly see Qanon people being influenced by a meme, they're not the sharpest tools in the shed.


I actually don't know any Q followers.  You just see the Q shirts at Trump rallies.  But I do think there are a lot of Alex Jones followers...which closely aligns with Q beliefs. 

I think reasonable conservatives need to figure out how to distance themselves from these crazies.  Otherwise it just looks like they're all playing dumb just to get their votes.  I mean MTG is already in congress.  Before you go there....there's simply no comparing her to AOC.  The intellectual divide is so massive.


----------



## NorCalDad

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think that's a real thing.  I know people who follow Alex Jones....


And ANTIFA is probably better compared to Proud Boys or any of the other right wing militias.  The right has some serious crazies on their side.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think that's a real thing.  I know people who follow Alex Jones....


Thats what I thought and why you're a pure partisan.  I can acknowledge the bad actors on the right but you refuse to on the left.  Just FYI Boudin and Gascon are very real things.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Thats what I thought and why you're a pure partisan.  I can acknowledge the bad actors on the right but you refuse to on the left.  Just FYI Boudin and Gascon are very real things.


I never said there weren't crazies on the left.  I actually think Pelosi and Biden are crazies....I mean Friday is on them.   I just think there are more on the right.  Or rather the depth of craziness is deeper.  The left is more incompetent than anything else.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I never said there weren't crazies on the left.  I actually think Pelosi and Biden are crazies....I mean Friday is on them.   I just think there are more on the right.  Or rather the depth of craziness is deeper.  The left is more incompetent than anything else.


Good luck with that mentality.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Good luck with that mentality.


Oh I think this country is F$#$ed big time to be honest (I agree with @Grace T. here).   We are 100% following the Idiocracy screen play to a tee.  So, what I think doesn't even matter anymore.  Dems aren't getting anymore of my money.   I'm just going to watch from the sidelines and see how this all plays out.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Would you say were in trouble if people follow George Soros and ANTIFA?


Now maybe you can tell me how I could “follow” either of those?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Thats what I thought and why you're a pure partisan.  I can acknowledge the bad actors on the right but you refuse to on the left.  Just FYI Boudin and Gascon are very real things.


Like I always say when you can top Jewish laser beams starting forest fires in California . . .


----------



## crush

Lock those crazy ass Qanons who would not take the Jab and obey their master. You guys are classic.  When was Q first established?  By whom?  Who started the Navy Seals?  Who said to, "Time to release the Seals?" Who had Seal Team Six whacked?  Who lies all the time? I can 100% say the Anons I have met and talked to are ex Marines, Ex Navy Seals and just some pissed off people who think the globalist and assholes stole our country and want to kill kids on demand.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Oh I think this country is F$#$ed big time to be honest (I agree with @Grace T. here).   We are 100% following the Idiocracy screen play to a tee.  So, what I think doesn't even matter anymore.  Dems aren't getting anymore of my money.   I'm just going to watch from the sidelines and see how this all plays out.


Way too many people bought into the lie and took all those jabs and that f$#$ed us all big time. I know families torn a part over the jab or no jab. You still think your boy Dr. F told us the Truth? People are dying from the left and right and at record numbers. My wife siad people right now are choosing to stay or leave. People are losing all their money next and when that happens, life will chabge forever and no normal Norm ever again. Good teachers I know have quit public school teaching and now are going private. Grace is always right by the way because she thinks before she writes and it not emotional like me. Look, I said to everyone on here three years ago that this law would be kicked back to the States. EOTL did his thing and brought bad Karma to himself and to all those who believed and "liked" his evil posts. I told you to your face bro what would happen. At least give a high five for the kids. Guess what else I said would happen?  My neighbor son has heart problems at 18 and is on meds. I can't dare ask any questions how that happen. t did what he said. That is why I stand with King MAGA. He got me the three Justices I asked for and the kids got a 6-3 victory, just like I said. The Storm is here........


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Now maybe you can tell me how I could “follow” either of those?


Tell you what you go to the local gamers cafe in a Che Guevara t-shirt listening to Rage Against the Machine and I will go to a NASCAR race in a John Birch Society t-shirt listening to Ted Nugent and see if you get recruited faster by ANTIFA or if I get recruited quicker by QANON.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Tell you what you go to the local gamers cafe in a Che Guevara t-shirt listening to Rage Against the Machine and I will go to a NASCAR race in a John Birch Society t-shirt listening to Ted Nugent and see if you get recruited faster by ANTIFA or if I get recruited quicker by QANON.


I think you're talking nonsense.  The Bay Area is one of the most liberal areas in the US.  I don't know a single member of "ANTIFA".  Literally Zero.  Yet, I know MAGAs and Alex Jones followers.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Tell you what you go to the local gamers cafe in a Che Guevara t-shirt listening to Rage Against the Machine and I will go to a NASCAR race in a John Birch Society t-shirt listening to Ted Nugent and see if you get recruited faster by ANTIFA or if I get recruited quicker by QANON.


Good luck with that mentality.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I think you're talking nonsense.  The Bay Area is one of the most liberal areas in the US.  I don't know a single member of "ANTIFA".  Literally Zero.  Yet, I know MAGAs and Alex Jones followers.


I think were probably out of the age group to know Antifas, but I also dont know any Qs or AJ followers.  However a Facebook friend did go to the premier of 2000 Mules.

Proud Boys can eat shit and die.  They threatened a close family of ours.  The FBI had to get involved.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Tell you what you go to the local gamers cafe in a Che Guevara t-shirt listening to Rage Against the Machine and I will go to a NASCAR race in a John Birch Society t-shirt listening to Ted Nugent and see if you get recruited faster by ANTIFA or if I get recruited quicker by QANON.


I’ve been recruited by more than one white supremacist, most notably Tom Metzger. I’ve been sent religious cult propaganda. I’ve had more than one person lecture me on QAnon theories. I’ve been invited to northern New Mexico to search for the entrance to the underworld where the reptilians and the grays are battling for control of the surface world. I’ve been invited to northern Arizona to experience a peyote ritual with the people.
But I’ve never been recruited to fight the war against fascism. I don’t believe ANTIFA nor QAnon hold meetings.
and Rage are all good people, trying to be a positive force.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Tell you what you go to the local gamers cafe in a Che Guevara t-shirt listening to Rage Against the Machine and I will go to a NASCAR race in a John Birch Society t-shirt listening to Ted Nugent and see if you get recruited faster by ANTIFA or if I get recruited quicker by QANON.


Q just posted again. He asked, "Who is Jane Roe?" Then talked about their evil 50 year plan. You can;t make this up. Watty, no such thing as a  QAnon. Bro, you watch Rachel Madcow way too much. Their Anons and Anons only.  Deep State coined QAnon.


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’ve been recruited by more than one white supremacist, most notably Tom Metzger. I’ve been sent religious cult propaganda. I’ve had more than one person lecture me on QAnon theories. I’ve been invited to northern New Mexico to search for the entrance to the underworld where the reptilians and the grays are battling for control of the surface world. I’ve been invited to northern Arizona to experience a peyote ritual with the people.
> But I’ve never been recruited to fight the war against fascism. I don’t believe ANTIFA nor QAnon hold meetings.
> and Rage are all good people, trying to be a positive force.


I had some JWs knock on my door and two guys on a bike tried to share Mormon faith with me. It's not, "QAnon" Why are you and Watty using propaganda and not calling them, "Anon" and it's just Q. All Praise to Q.  Kneel before the Great Q before it's too late.  Q is knocking on your heart and wants to take over your mind and save you Husker. Open your heart to the Way of Q and the new Q church the nearest Q neighborhood study group.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’ve been recruited by more than one white supremacist, most notably Tom Metzger. I’ve been sent religious cult propaganda. I’ve had more than one person lecture me on QAnon theories. I’ve been invited to northern New Mexico to search for the entrance to the underworld where the reptilians and the grays are battling for control of the surface world. I’ve been invited to northern Arizona to experience a peyote ritual with the people.
> But I’ve never been recruited to fight the war against fascism. I don’t believe ANTIFA nor QAnon hold meetings.
> and Rage are all good people, trying to be a positive force.


You need to stay out of Lakeside and Santee.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> I think were probably out of the age group to know Antifas, but I also dont know any Qs or AJ followers.  However a Facebook friend did go to the premier of 2000 Mules.
> 
> Proud Boys can eat shit and die.  They threatened a close family of ours.  The FBI had to get involved.


Sorry to hear about your family situation there with the proud boys. 

The AJ follower I know is a distant family member.  I'm just saying we all should be super concerned with the uprising of these mindsets. 

I know abortion is a bit of a wedge issue, but this is a pretty big deal.  Especially when you see what C. Thomas followed up with. 

I have no idea how this relates to vaccines...


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> Sorry to hear about your family situation there with the proud boys.
> 
> The AJ follower I know is a distant family member.  I'm just saying we all should be super concerned with the uprising of these mindsets.
> 
> I know abortion is a bit of a wedge issue, but this is a pretty big deal.  Especially when you see what C. Thomas followed up with.
> 
> I have no idea how this relates to vaccines...


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> You need to stay out of Lakeside and Santee.


I grew up out there, went to school, played sports, went to church, raced against, worked with, many good people that some lost their minds.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

NorCalDad said:


> Sorry to hear about your family situation there with the proud boys.
> 
> The AJ follower I know is a distant family member.  I'm just saying we all should be super concerned with the uprising of these mindsets.
> 
> I know abortion is a bit of a wedge issue, but this is a pretty big deal.  Especially when you see what C. Thomas followed up with.
> 
> I have no idea how this relates to vaccines...


There is no vaccine for people who want to control your life by their set of rules.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I can't believe people are now calling my new favorite hero, "Uncle Clarence."  What a bunch of sore losers.  This guy is bad ass and I love him so much. I will give this man the biggest hug when I meet him. Thank you sir for protecting life


----------



## crush

For all of you still confused and brainwashed, please watch this 13 minute video.  @NorCalDad, I would take the time to watch bro since you guys up in Norcal have no Anons.  I follow the Anons. I don't have time to peace it all together.  I can say Q has never been wrong. I follow Q you guys, but not like the Tel A Vision is saying. No, I research Q and follow his post to see if this is bullshit or real.  I can say 100% that Q is real and he/she/IT is a military sting operation. Q is with God but is not God. Q is the Military for God on earth. You will all see.  NSA has everything you wrote or said behind closed doors.  They listen to your conversations through yur phone.  They know where you eat, sleep and what you think. This game of life is over. Old pay to play, kickbacks to middlemen and access to others is officially over. No more "paying extra" to make sure your dd makes the A Team.









						Q - The Plan to Save the World (1080p60)
					

This is an improved version of Joe M.'s great video "Q - The Plan to Save the World - REMASTERED" that was created in 2019. Please share this widely! And it just so happens that Joe M's Youtube channe




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Get ready you guys. I saved a lot of crow for some of you who are still full of ego and pride. After you guys eat your crow, I will serve you some Humble Pie and then we will all go out and party when this is over.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Look at that double rainbow reflection off the firmament, wowza!!! Talk about a water class ceiling moment


----------



## Multi Sport

Well..









						Monkeypox outbreak in U.S. is bigger than the CDC reports. Testing is 'abysmal'
					

The testing system set up by the CDC actually deters doctors from ordering a monkeypox test, and many physicians aren't familiar with the disease, resulting in too few tests and little tracking.




					www.npr.org


----------



## crush

Multi Sport said:


> Well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monkeypox outbreak in U.S. is bigger than the CDC reports. Testing is 'abysmal'
> 
> 
> The testing system set up by the CDC actually deters doctors from ordering a monkeypox test, and many physicians aren't familiar with the disease, resulting in too few tests and little tracking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


I'm hearing from a close Doc that this Pox is like AIDS but way worse. I would encourage my pals Husker Du and Espola to watch how they live. Triple Vax+ are getting AIDS in record number. Please you guys, be safe out there.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Let me remind all of you. You do NOT own your children. You rent the kid to learn from the kid and the kid learns from you. God allowed you to participate in this thing we call life. I told you all that the planet has changed to love and Christ will reign for a 1000 years soon ((I hope)). Before his gr8t return, we humans need to fix our messes. Jesus can't rule if we murder the kids before their born. Anyone can kill God's baby but let's not lie and say that bay is not human. California is going to be the #1 State for abortions on demand. Question about Dicks: Is Dicks Sporting Goods willing to kill this "non-human."  Dick also made sure your kids got the jabs.  Now they will kill your kid for you, no questions asked.


----------



## crush

Scoreboard Update: 6-3, Prayer wins!!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Wow you guys, check out what Webster has changed what a Jab is over last few years!!


----------



## Grace T.

Another study confirming what we suspected: a higher than expected incidence of myocarditis in young people from the vax...moderna worse than pfizer. In a rational world, it would influence the guidelines of boosting these age groups and what vaxx to use.










						Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines - Nature Communications
					

There have been reports of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA COVID-9 vaccination. Here, the authors use nationwide data from France and find increased risks of these outcomes in the first week following vaccination, for both the first and second dose, and present age- and sex-specific...




					www.nature.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Another study confirming what we suspected: a higher than expected incidence of myocarditis in young people from the vax...moderna worse than pfizer. In a rational world, it would influence the guidelines of boosting these age groups and what vaxx to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines - Nature Communications
> 
> 
> There have been reports of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA COVID-9 vaccination. Here, the authors use nationwide data from France and find increased risks of these outcomes in the first week following vaccination, for both the first and second dose, and present age- and sex-specific...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


Stuff that is normally studied before a drug is released. 

And yet without knowing long term affects, many people/agencies/companies advocated for mandatory vaccines.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Another study confirming what we suspected: a higher than expected incidence of myocarditis in young people from the vax...moderna worse than pfizer. In a rational world, it would influence the guidelines of boosting these age groups and what vaxx to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines - Nature Communications
> 
> 
> There have been reports of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA COVID-9 vaccination. Here, the authors use nationwide data from France and find increased risks of these outcomes in the first week following vaccination, for both the first and second dose, and present age- and sex-specific...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


I didn't read the full study -- but it doesn't appear that there was a discussion around myocarditis via covid-19 infection (spread and severity) in comparison to the results in this study.  Clearly they should investigate why the vaccines have these connections, but I'd like to see a comparison here so I can properly understand the risk (which is rational).  Essentially the question is this, If younger people don't get vaccinated or boosted, are their chances of getting myocarditis post covid-19 infection greater/same/less?  Conversely, what is the impact on those who have been vaccinated/boosted and contract covid-19?


----------



## thirteenknots

NorCalDad said:


> I didn't read the full study -- but it doesn't appear that there was a discussion around myocarditis via covid-19 infection (spread and severity) in comparison to the results in this study.  Clearly they should investigate why the vaccines have these connections, but I'd like to see a comparison here so I can properly understand the risk (which is rational).  Essentially the question is this, If younger people don't get vaccinated or boosted, are their chances of getting myocarditis post covid-19 infection greater/same/less?  Conversely, what is the impact on those who have been vaccinated/boosted and contract covid-19?


YOU DON'T GET C-19 MYOCARDITIS IF YOU DON'T GET THE JAB.
PERIOD.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

NorCalDad said:


> I didn't read the full study -- but it doesn't appear that there was a discussion around myocarditis via covid-19 infection (spread and severity) in comparison to the results in this study.  Clearly they should investigate why the vaccines have these connections, but I'd like to see a comparison here so I can properly understand the risk (which is rational).  Essentially the question is this, If younger people don't get vaccinated or boosted, are their chances of getting myocarditis post covid-19 infection greater/same/less?  Conversely, what is the impact on those who have been vaccinated/boosted and contract covid-19?


As the researchers the state: "Our results are generally consistent with those reported by the pharmacovigilance systems in France (its a French study) and other countries".  There is nothing new here per se, just an expanded dataset with better confidence intervals.  In the young adult category the highest excess risk for myo/pericarditis is about 15 per 100,000 for the second dose of the Moderna series.  It is considerably less for Phizer. 

In terms of unknown risk, in my opinion the following needs to also be placed on the scales.  About a year ago, I heard neuroscientists talking about a wide range of neuro-inflammatory effects of C19 infection.  Essentially, what is called long covid appears to one end of a spectrum of neural and cognitive problems that can be persistent and associated with loss of neural density in the CNS.  Like everything with this virus, how you respond depends on the indiosyncracies of your own immune system.  So you can have a relatively mild presentation with respiratory symptoms but a more severe neuroinflammatory response, and, unfortunately, it can affect kids too.  So recent citations are below for anyone interested.  We'll undoubtably know a lot more in a year.



			https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm2052
		






						Brain changes after COVID-19 â€” how concerned should we be? - Nature Reviews Neurology
					

Analysis of brain images taken before and after infection with SARS-CoV-2 suggests that even mild COVID-19 is associated with brain structure alterations and cognitive impairment. However, the clinical implications for individuals are unclear and further studies are needed to assess the...




					www.nature.com
				





			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/dmcn.15185


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> I didn't read the full study -- but it doesn't appear that there was a discussion around myocarditis via covid-19 infection (spread and severity) in comparison to the results in this study.  Clearly they should investigate why the vaccines have these connections, but I'd like to see a comparison here so I can properly understand the risk (which is rational).  Essentially the question is this, If younger people don't get vaccinated or boosted, are their chances of getting myocarditis post covid-19 infection greater/same/less?  Conversely, what is the impact on those who have been vaccinated/boosted and contract covid-19?


Grace, despite her plea for "a rational world", doesn't do rational comparisons.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Grace, despite her plea for "a rational world", doesn't do rational comparisons.


What evilgoalie did was a thoughtful response and critique.  Well thought out.  Good contribution.

What you did is a classic example of trolling and its concurrent value.  

Nice we have a side by side comparison to look at.  Great when it works out that way.  --^

The biggest concern here is that if every COVID exposure (whether vaccine or natural) is a potential myocarditis event, and if the vaccine isn't truly sterilizing and you are going to catch it anyways, and if given the age group you are already at a very small risk for the virus, it doesn't make sense to incur another risk event (potential once every 1/4 months) over and over again (not to mention that with this age group there is some data that says natural covid is at least a lower risk than the moderna shot).  But I agree with evilgoalie...we'll know more in 12 months or so.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> What evilgoalie did was a thoughtful response and critique.  Well thought out.  Good contribution.
> 
> What you did is a classic example of trolling and its concurrent value.
> 
> Nice we have a side by side comparison to look at.  Great when it works out that way.  --^
> 
> The biggest concern here is that if every COVID exposure (whether vaccine or natural) is a potential myocarditis event, and if the vaccine isn't truly sterilizing and you are going to catch it anyways, and if given the age group you are already at a very small risk for the virus, it doesn't make sense to incur another risk event (potential once every 1/4 months) over and over again (not to mention that with this age group there is some data that says natural covid is at least a lower risk than the moderna shot).  But I agree with evilgoalie...we'll know more in 12 months or so.


Do you disagree with me?  It's not clear from your response.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> What evilgoalie did was a thoughtful response and critique.  Well thought out.  Good contribution.
> 
> What you did is a classic example of trolling and its concurrent value.
> 
> Nice we have a side by side comparison to look at.  Great when it works out that way.  --^
> 
> The biggest concern here is that if every COVID exposure (whether vaccine or natural) is a potential myocarditis event, and if the vaccine isn't truly sterilizing and you are going to catch it anyways, and if given the age group you are already at a very small risk for the virus, it doesn't make sense to incur another risk event (potential once every 1/4 months) over and over again (not to mention that with this age group there is some data that says natural covid is at least a lower risk than the moderna shot).  But I agree with evilgoalie...we'll know more in 12 months or so.


It will be interesting to see if Newsom ever implements his mandatory Covid vaccination for school children.  I don't see it happening for practical and political reasons.   Newsom will be gearing up for his presidential run next July and if he follows through with his mandate it will be too fresh in voters minds.


----------



## Lion Eyes

espola said:


> Do you disagree with me?  It's not clear from your response.


Magoo ...
Grace was very clear in her response..._*"What you did is a classic example of trolling and its concurrent value."*_
Have you been partaking in adult beverages already today?


----------



## crush

Does anyone know anyone who got Monkey Pox? I have a head cold and my head hurts. No fever but the heat sucks and makes my head hurt even more. I was out in Norco area and it was almost 105 with smog that you could cut with a knife. I also have a pimple on the lower side of my back. This is the first time in a very long time I'm going to go lay down and just sleep. I hope it's just the weather conditions in the IE.


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> Magoo ...
> Grace was very clear in her response..._*"What you did is a classic example of trolling and its concurrent value."*_
> Have you been partaking in adult beverages already today?


The first question I had when I read the paper Grace referenced was what the rate of myocarditis was for those who caught covid.  Before I could formulate the question, others had opened up that avenue of the dialogue.  Perhaps you might have noted that Grace did not include any such thoughts, and was content to stick with her usual one-sided agenda.

We now return you to Grace's "rational world".


----------



## Grace T.

A couple colleagues of mine and my doctor (all at least triple vaxxed) got rebound COVID after taking Paxlovid.  I've been saying for a while now the dosage is either too low (which would require new safety tests at higher dosages) or the course of treatment was too short (which would require new safety tests for a longer regimen) to fully clear the virus.... glad they are finally beginning to wake up to the possibility and evaluate...but in the interim, we probably need discussion about whether to stop treatment with Paxlovid of routine, not-at-risk cases (e.g., people under 60 years old that are vaxxed and not immunocompromised)....but we won't because $.









						COVID-19 rebound after Paxlovid treatment likely due to insufficient exposure to the drug
					

A CDC study of the COVID-19 treatment drug, Paxlovid shows that instances of symptom rebound after treatment may be due to under exposure to the drug




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A couple colleagues of mine and my doctor (all at least triple vaxxed) got rebound COVID after taking Paxlovid.  I've been saying for a while now the dosage is either too low (which would require new safety tests at higher dosages) or the course of treatment was too short (which would require new safety tests for a longer regimen) to fully clear the virus.... glad they are finally beginning to wake up to the possibility and evaluate...but in the interim, we probably need discussion about whether to stop treatment with Paxlovid of routine, not-at-risk cases (e.g., people under 60 years old that are vaxxed and not immunocompromised)....but we won't because $.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 rebound after Paxlovid treatment likely due to insufficient exposure to the drug
> 
> 
> A CDC study of the COVID-19 treatment drug, Paxlovid shows that instances of symptom rebound after treatment may be due to under exposure to the drug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


So your suggestion is that instead of increasing the dose or the duration of treatment, we should stop treatment?


----------



## Multi Sport

Wha


Grace T. said:


> Another study confirming what we suspected: a higher than expected incidence of myocarditis in young people from the vax...moderna worse than pfizer. In a rational world, it would influence the guidelines of boosting these age groups and what vaxx to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines - Nature Communications
> 
> 
> There have been reports of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA COVID-9 vaccination. Here, the authors use nationwide data from France and find increased risks of these outcomes in the first week following vaccination, for both the first and second dose, and present age- and sex-specific...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


It's sad because the people who should read this will more then likely dismiss this as fake news.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So your suggestion is that instead of increasing the dose or the duration of treatment, we should stop treatment?


I see your comprehension is still getting worse.  Kinda sad

they can’t increase the dose or duration without going through safety trials which they should start asap. But in the interim there’s no reason to be giving it for cases that aren’t high risk.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I see your comprehension is still getting worse.  Kinda sad
> 
> they can’t increase the dose or duration without going through safety trials which they should start asap. But in the interim there’s no reason to be giving it for cases that aren’t high risk.


Your anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to justify a "no reason" result.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Your anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to justify a "no reason" result.


Keep dancing Gramps....lol!


----------



## crush

The war for life is being played out as I write. Choose life you guys, not death, trust me 100% on this. Time to care for the kids first, not money and selfishness.
In case some of you are just waking up, all of the crap the last 6 years has always been about the "Big Lie" 50 years ago. Jane Roe was an actress who was bought by the _ I A and paid to lie so we would kill millions of babies, 33% of which have been black babies. Jane had three kids and gave them all away for adoption, not death. Then she was bought by the Conservatives and lied like George Soros did about converting to the ways of Christ and she became a spokeswoman for Christ and the babies right at a chance at life. The whole abortion issue was predicated on a Big Fat Lie by all the liars, and we know who the father of lies is.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Word for the day: Honeypot


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*"Every single person posting on social media today was allowed to be born." - Mayra Flores
*


----------



## crush

My very good pal who also happens to be a big time Doc has told me this is now happening to may women. We need to educate everyone better on sacred sex, safe sex and responsible sex. This would be interesting to say the least and would help fix all the wrongs.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Your anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to justify a "no reason" result.


Fauci himself just rebounded.....but yeah all anecdote.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Fauci himself just rebounded.....but yeah all anecdote.


Rebounded?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Rebounded?


Wasn’t just one rebound.  Dude had a triple double coming off the bench.  Best senior performance by a Washington player since Jordan retired.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

One big mystery of all these SADs.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Wasn’t just one rebound.  Dude had a triple double coming off the bench.  Best senior performance by a Washington player since Jordan retired.


Do you think these are rebounds so to speak, or it sounds like the virus never completely left his body...or is that one in the same.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Do you think these are rebounds so to speak, or it sounds like the virus never completely left his body...or is that one in the same.


An 81 year old man has a recurring infection, and you find it noteworthy?  

It‘s reasonable to ask whether Fauci is too old for the job.  He is.  I would say the same about Pelosi, Biden, Feinstein, and McConnell.  I don’t think anyone should be surprised that someone that age has health problems.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> An 81 year old man has a recurring infection, and you find it noteworthy?
> 
> It‘s reasonable to ask whether Fauci is too old for the job.  He is.  I would say the same about Pelosi, Biden, Feinstein, and McConnell.  I don’t think anyone should be surprised that someone that age has health problems.


WTF are you talking about?  Your mischaracterizations of peoples comments are just getting worse. 

I asked a genuine question about what is considered a rebound.  Whether it was Fauci, who you were referring to, or someone else is really irrelevant.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> WTF are you talking about?  Your mischaracterizations of peoples comments are just getting worse.
> 
> I asked a genuine question about what is considered a rebound.  Whether it was Fauci, who you were referring to, or someone else is really irrelevant.


He kinda covered that in the first sentence.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> WTF are you talking about?  Your mischaracterizations of peoples comments are just getting worse.
> 
> I asked a genuine question about what is considered a rebound.  Whether it was Fauci, who you were referring to, or someone else is really irrelevant.


Science escapes dad....pax was never tested on jabbed peeps, risk/ benefit not very clear.  2nd course of pax hasn't been tested and the FDA doesn't recommend.

mabye fauci is riding a placebo; I mean, he is science after all. 

Science not being followed is the the current trend amongst bobble head scientists.  This is the kind of crap that the medical community has endured over the last few years.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> WTF are you talking about?  Your mischaracterizations of peoples comments are just getting worse.
> 
> I asked a genuine question about what is considered a rebound.  Whether it was Fauci, who you were referring to, or someone else is really irrelevant.


My bad.  I confused your comment with Grace’s.


----------



## crush

Comedian Nick Nemeroff dies at 32...

And YES... he WAS Jabbed. Here he is in his own words!

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/come


----------



## Desert Hound

Funny how the news keeps going one way. As in masks and lockdowns don't make a difference.









						Do mask mandates work? Bay Area data from June says no.
					

Graphs compare Alameda County’s COVID-19 case rates to rates in neighboring counties.




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## crush

"Rachael Chandler was the Human Handler."  Whatever the Elite desired, she found for them.  That's what the Island was for, plus they set Honeypot traps. Mayor Jim from AZ got a one week paid trip to the Island way back in the day and came back blackmailed.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Thanks a lot Covidians. You guys also voted for Joe, supported mask and firing people who didn;t obey the jab orders. The COVID cult did lasting damage to our kids and stole over two years of their lives. As a result, the United States is now faced with an academic, social, and psychological disaster that will reverberate through society for years, if not decades, to come.


----------



## crush

Score update: 6-3 EPA loses as does all the other 3 letter agencies. Trump sure is some clown.


----------



## crush

We caught you all!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how the news keeps going one way. As in masks and lockdowns don't make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do mask mandates work? Bay Area data from June says no.
> 
> 
> Graphs compare Alameda County’s COVID-19 case rates to rates in neighboring counties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


I can't believe these types of articles are still being published.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> I can't believe these types of articles are still being published.


Because you think it’s obvious or because the scientific opinion of one journalist doesn’t mean squat?

I can see either criticism.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Because you think it’s obvious or because the scientific opinion of one journalist doesn’t mean squat?
> 
> I can see either criticism.


because lab science is only true in the lab.  We've known this for some time...to answer your question - it's obvious and another scientific opinion of another journalist doesn't mean squat.   Masks work in controlled conditions, mask mandates don't work.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> because lab science is only true in the lab.  We've known this for some time...to answer your question - it's obvious and another scientific opinion of another journalist doesn't mean squat.   Masks work in controlled conditions, mask mandates don't work.


In your opinion, do masks work, out there in the real world?

That is, if I put on an N95 for ComicCon, do you think it reduces my odds or level of exposure?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> because lab science is only true in the lab.  We've known this for some time...to answer your question - it's obvious and another scientific opinion of another journalist doesn't mean squat.   Masks work in controlled conditions, mask mandates don't work.


Mandates don’t work for those who want their FREEDUMB!


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> In your opinion, do masks work, out there in the real world?
> 
> That is, if I put on an N95 for ComicCon, do you think it reduces my odds or level of exposure?


Yes you silly goose, IF you put on a fitted N95 and wear it 100% of the time in the presence of others when INSIDE, then of course, it's almost like a lab experiment.  Was that some sort of sciency test you just administered?

In my opinion masks do not work in the real world, they work like rock stars in a lab.  Your black and white world quickly diminishes to gray once humans get involved - did you fly during mask mandates?  Did you eat at a restaurant with a mask on?  Humans don't wear masks very well for very long, especially when not incentivized to do so.  Especially so for little child humans.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Mandates don’t work for those who want their FREEDUMB!


Do you eat out and did you fly?  wondering what your mask compliance score was when doing both.  Plenty of things that you can't do while wearing a mask -  eating and drinking are kinda important.  Do you know anyone who didn't abide by a mask mandate?  Once gain, zero contribution to this conversation..blame it on your guy I guess.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> In your opinion, do masks work, out there in the real world?
> 
> That is, if I put on an N95 for ComicCon, do you think it reduces my odds or level of exposure?


Catching Covid would be the least of my worries at ComicCon.  I think a properly worn N95 would provide some protection and you could even integrate it as part of your costume.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Catching Covid would be the least of my worries at ComicCon.  I think a properly worn N95 would provide some protection and you could even integrate it as part of your costume.


I’m with you on the “mandates”, unless implemented by a private business and enforced. Some groups of people will rebel against anything an authority figure tries to “mandate” them to do. Subtle suggestions, making people feel like they made the decision for themselves, bribing them with . . . Wait? Sounds like trying to get an infant to eat their vegetables! Lol!


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Catching Covid would be the least of my worries at ComicCon.  I think a properly worn N95 would provide some protection and you could even integrate it as part of your costume.


Not a fan of game conventions?

The biggest risk is that my kid would strangle me if we skipped Surf Cup to go play board games.  

But I’d totally wear a filtering mask if I were going.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’m with you on the “mandates”, unless implemented by a private business and enforced. Some groups of people will rebel against anything an authority figure tries to “mandate” them to do. Subtle suggestions, making people feel like they made the decision for themselves, bribing them with . . . Wait? Sounds like trying to get an infant to eat their vegetables! Lol!


Or...imagine being told the truth about something.  Even better yet, admitting that science is an evolving thing.  And yes, I know it's a slippery slope.  sometimes humans just don't like being told what to do, just ask all of the non seat belt wearers out there.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Not a fan of game conventions?
> 
> The biggest risk is that my kid would strangle me if we skipped Surf Cup to go play board games.
> 
> But I’d totally wear a filtering mask if I were going.


In regards to masks, I'm seeing another type of long-hauler.  Those that are going to be wearing masks (indoors and outdoors) for the long haul.   Maybe they have co-conditions and are being extra cautious, but I believe there is a certain population that are going to feel more comfortable with a mask in public into perpetuity.  However, rarely do I see someone wearing an N95, usually a cloth or surgical mask, and not uncommon to see it below their nose.   Mask wearing seems to be geography dependent even within SD county.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> Or...imagine being told the truth about something.  Even better yet, admitting that science is an evolving thing.  And yes, I know it's a slippery slope.  sometimes humans just don't like being told what to do, just ask all of the non seat belt wearers out there.


Ok?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> In regards to masks, I'm seeing another type of long-hauler.  Those that are going to be wearing masks (indoors and outdoors) for the long haul.   Maybe they have co-conditions and are being extra cautious, but I believe there is a certain population that are going to feel more comfortable with a mask in public into perpetuity.  However, rarely do I see someone wearing an N95, usually a cloth or surgical mask, and not uncommon to see it below their nose.   Mask wearing seems to be geography dependent even within SD county.


Just depends on if you are a George or a Kelly Anne.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Funny how the news keeps going one way. As in masks and lockdowns don't make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do mask mandates work? Bay Area data from June says no.
> 
> 
> Graphs compare Alameda County’s COVID-19 case rates to rates in neighboring counties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com


What word is it that’s defined by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

kickingandscreaming said:


> What word is it that’s defined by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?


TDS?


----------



## soccersc

dad4 said:


> Not a fan of game conventions?
> 
> The biggest risk is that my kid would strangle me if we skipped Surf Cup to go play board games.
> 
> But I’d totally wear a filtering mask if I were going.


Does your son wear a mask while playing soccer? Do you all stay masked at home? Just wondering, because it would seem strange that someone who defends mask wearing so much would allow their kids to play soccer maskless, hang out on the bench with other non-masked kids, then go home and not wear a mask and risk spreading any disease he might have caught while sitting next to a kid that has covid.  

Maybe that's like wearing a mask into a restaurant then taking it off when its time to eat???


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Good Saturday to all of you. Make today gr8t!*


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Happened again said:


> TDS?


tdS
I believe TDS is the Squirrel virus that has made the jump from dogs to humans. The cure for humans is rational thinking which explains the TDS pandemic.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> TDS?


Those who were once thought to be deranged for blaming t for every national ill are now being seen as prescient.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Those who were once thought to be deranged for blaming t for every national ill are now being seen as prescient.


Hey Shill Espola, have a bottle of Shills Whine and some of my cheese that get's better over time.


----------



## crush

I will finish my 4 year tour at the socal soccer forum as a Patriot!


----------



## crush

Don't forget to pre-order your tickets for your Grand kids Espola....lol.  In all Truth, I hope Biebs get's better and I just thought this was funny and we all need a laugh or two during these trying times.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

kickingandscreaming said:


> I believe TDS is the Squirrel virus that has made the jump from dogs to humans. The cure for humans is rational thinking which explains the TDS pandemic.





espola said:


> Those who were once thought to be deranged for blaming t for every national ill are now being seen as prescient.


Q.E.D.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Those who were once thought to be deranged for blaming t for every national ill are now being seen as prescient.


lay out these national ills.  who are these prescient beings you speak of?  long tds is a thing.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> lay out these national ills.  who are these prescient beings you speak of?  long tds is a thing.


I had a few libs that were short term tds and with some good talks and a healthy diet of the news, they got cleared. The long term tds is dangerous and why we are in the mess in the first place. Their got so scared and brainwashed about t, they supported or participated in cheating.  That is serious TDS and punishment is severe and no excuses either.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> lay out these national ills.  who are these prescient beings you speak of?  long tds is a thing.


Claiming TDS is just someone’s way of saying “I love Trump dearly, but don’t want to admit it”.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Claiming TDS is just someone’s way of saying “I love Trump dearly, but don’t want to admit it”.


Certainly fits your narrative


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Certainly fits your narrative


C'mon Kicker. As if he has his own narrative.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Certainly fits your narrative


Would you vote for Trump?


kickingandscreaming said:


> C'mon Kicker. As if he has his own narrative.


Would you vote for Trump?


----------



## crush

@everyone, this Jim guy made me pee in my pants last night laughing so hard. I'm still feeling sick ((not real bad, just a cold in my nose and I feel like a slug)). I know we all have opinions about this and that and we all don't agree on everything, but I want you all to know that I love you. The last four years debating many of you has been an honor. Did I get what I wanted? Yes.  Did I get everything I wanted? No. Life is not fair and it's not going to be fair anytime soon.


----------



## crush

We are real good Pink, trust me. Me and my Lord are 100% good.  I wish you and all your fans the best.

*From Pink: "Let’s be clear: if you believe the government belongs in a woman’s uterus, a gay persons business or marriage, or that racism is okay- THEN PLEASE IN THE NAME OF YOUR LORD NEVER FUCKING LISTEN TO MY MUSIC AGAIN. AND ALSO FUCK RIGHT OFF. We good? *

Pink is acting like my pals did on Facebook in 2016 after HRC lost.


----------



## dad4

The dude told an armed group to go to Congress and “fight like hell”.   

How many plates of ketchup have to hit the wall before you admit that he isn’t the best standard bearer for your cause?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Would you vote for Trump?
> 
> Would you vote for Trump?


Haven't and won't - as I have stated before. However, simply "not Trump" didn't get us to a good point given the current adults in the White House. All our problems didn't go away and we have brand new ones.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

*Please call (777) TDS-HELP!!!*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Haven't and won't - as I have stated before. However, simply "not Trump" didn't get us to a good point given the current adults in the White House. All our problems didn't go away and we have brand new ones.


So you still like him, check.


----------



## crush




----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Would you vote for Trump?
> 
> Would you vote for Trump?


No and never have.  Relevance?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you still like him, check.


Symptom 157 of TDS. If someone refuses to place all of our country’s problems on Trump, you believe that person likes Trump.

So you are still a mindless tool, check.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Symptom 157 of TDS. If someone refuses to place all of our country’s problems on Trump, you believe that person likes Trump.
> 
> So you are still a mindless tool, check.


You can’t even see it. Every time you say “but!” It’s your way of staying in line.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> You can’t even see it. Every time you say “but!” It’s your way of staying in line.


Do you mean I can't see what you are imagining? Praise God for that. Where do I say "but"? Get back on script and read those cue cards/talking points. You do about as well as Biden when you depend on your own wits.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean I can't see what you are imagining? Praise God for that. Where do I say "but"? Get back on script and read those cue cards/talking points. You do about as well as Biden when you depend on your own wits.


It’s the tendency to change the topic to Biden after expressing something negative about Trump.   For example:



kickingandscreaming said:


> Haven't and won't - as I have stated before. However, simply "not Trump" didn't get us to a good point given the current adults in the White House. All our problems didn't go away and we have brand new ones.


It makes it look like you see some sort of equivalence between being senile and attempting a coup.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> It’s the tendency to change the topic to Biden after expressing something negative about Trump.   For example:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes it look like you see some sort of equivalence between being senile and attempting a coup.


That mostly has to do with the fact that Biden happens to be our current president.  The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away. (maybe niave that there will be someone capable to replace them)

It doesnt make it look there is some sort of equivalence, its you and Husker trying to mischaracterize what we are saying in an attempt to make your arguments look credible or put others in a box.  Lazy reasoning and intellectually dishonest to claim anti-Biden = pro-Trump.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> That mostly has to do with the fact that Biden happens to be our current president.  The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away. (maybe niave that there will be someone capable to replace them)
> 
> It doesnt make it look there is some sort of equivalence, its you and Husker trying to mischaracterize what we are saying in an attempt to make your arguments look credible or put others in a box.  Lazy reasoning and intellectually dishonest to claim anti-Biden = pro-Trump.


I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that those with the same myopic approach to COVID policy also have a myopic approach to politics. Trump zero solves all. Any who suggests that we have problems beyond Trump must be a Trump supporter. Give them credit for consistency.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That mostly has to do with the fact that Biden happens to be our current president.  The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away. (maybe niave that there will be someone capable to replace them)
> 
> It doesnt make it look there is some sort of equivalence, its you and Husker trying to mischaracterize what we are saying in an attempt to make your arguments look credible or put others in a box.  Lazy reasoning and intellectually dishonest to claim anti-Biden = pro-Trump.


Not the point or attempted correlation. My point was when you always need to add the “but, look at Joe!” clause in your “I don’t like trump” kinda says you do. The Whatabouts did the same concerning the IRA early 70’s Ireland.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That mostly has to do with the fact that Biden happens to be our current president.  The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away. (maybe niave that there will be someone capable to replace them)
> 
> It doesnt make it look there is some sort of equivalence, its you and Husker trying to mischaracterize what we are saying in an attempt to make your arguments look credible or put others in a box.  Lazy reasoning and intellectually dishonest to claim anti-Biden = pro-Trump.


The equivalence is inherent in your phrasing.  “The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away.”

Why use a phrase like “Biden and Trump” unless you want to draw some parallel?  Drawing parallels is the primary purpose of conjunctions.  If you don’t mean to draw a parallel, then don’t put the two alongside each other.  

Then you go on to accuse _others_ of lazy reasoning and intellectual dishonesty.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The equivalence is inherent in your phrasing.  “The best thing that could happen to our country is if both Biden and Trump went away.”
> 
> Why use a phrase like “Biden and Trump” unless you want to draw some parallel?  Drawing parallels is the primary purpose of conjunctions.  If you don’t mean to draw a parallel, then don’t put the two alongside each other.
> 
> Then you go on to accuse _others_ of lazy reasoning and intellectual dishonesty.


Again your twisting other peoples words to suit your argument.  The "im rubber and your glue" is a nice retort though.

And the obvious parallel between Biden and Trump is neither deserve to be President albeit for different reasons.  Just FYI Joes biggest problem is not senility its his policies, or lack thereof.  His senility is mostly just bad optics.

I welcome the day when we get candidates that arent the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Again your twisting other peoples words to suit your argument.  The "im rubber and your glue" is a nice retort though.
> 
> And the obvious parallel between Biden and Trump is neither deserve to be President albeit for different reasons.  Just FYI Joes biggest problem is not senility its his policies, or lack thereof.  His senility is mostly just bad optics.
> 
> I welcome the day when we get candidates that arent the lesser of two evils.


We will need to abolish the two party system if holding our collective noses while casting our ballots is in our future. The ever intensifying quest for brand loyalty has eroded civil discourse. One side is presented as wishing for a country resembling The Handmaid’s Tale the other a constant state of The Purge.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> We will need to abolish the two party system if holding our collective noses while casting our ballots is in our future. The ever intensifying quest for brand loyalty has eroded civil discourse. One side is presented as wishing for a country resembling The Handmaid’s Tale the other a constant state of The Purge.


Operative word is "presented".  We have far more in common but were defined by the extremes and/or we vilify each other based upon on differences.  Of course, that comes with freedom of speech which is also what makes our country great.  Maybe more focus on responsibilties than rights.

Happy 4th y'all!


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Again your twisting other peoples words to suit your argument.  The "im rubber and your glue" is a nice retort though.
> 
> And the obvious parallel between Biden and Trump is neither deserve to be President albeit for different reasons.  Just FYI Joes biggest problem is not senility its his policies, or lack thereof.  His senility is mostly just bad optics.
> 
> I welcome the day when we get candidates that arent the lesser of two evils.


t is never going to leave your head or anyone else's head for that matter.  TDS is real and you got it bro. I didn't think you did but you got it 100%. He's in everyone's head and I just laugh now.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> It’s the tendency to change the topic to Biden after expressing something negative about Trump.   For example:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes it look like you see some sort of equivalence between being senile and attempting a coup.


Are you using "equivalence" to mean inconvenient truths? Below is the statement you questioned. Based on current polls, over half of America agrees with me.

*However, simply "not Trump" didn't get us to a good point given the current adults in the White House. All our problems didn't go away and we have brand new ones.*

It certainly has more support than a statement you let slide without comment that happens to be the #1 symptom of TDS.


espola said:


> Those who were once thought to be deranged for blaming t for every national ill are now being seen as prescient.


The equivalence I was making was that Husker repeats talking points, rarely shows the capability of critical thinking, and spouts mindless shit when he goes off script. That mirrors Biden. It was obvious well before he was elected. So, if what you say is true, why did I vote for Biden if I see the two as equivalent? It doesn't add up.

Just curious, how closely have you been following the January 6 hearings?


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> And the obvious parallel between Biden and Trump is neither deserve to be President albeit for different reasons.  Just FYI Joes biggest problem is not senility its his policies, or lack thereof.  His senility is mostly just bad optics.


I think the issue with that statement is it's like saying a murderer and a thief both deserve to be in prison without any provided context.  I think many of us don't think Biden and Trump are remotely comparable and we need to come to terms with this as a country so we can get more aligned and fight the same fight.  Until there is this acknowledgment, it's hard to have a sane conversation.  I say this just as another lense.  Keep in mind @watfly I don't see you as one of the crazy ones on this message board -- I think you're a reasonable human.  

Personally I think the GOP should elevate Kinzinger.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I think the issue with that statement is it's like saying a murderer and a thief both deserve to be in prison without any provided context.  I think many of us don't think Biden and Trump are remotely comparable and we need to come to terms with this as a country so we can get more aligned and fight the same fight.  Until there is this acknowledgment, it's hard to have a sane conversation.  I say this just as another lense.  Keep in mind @watfly I don't see you as one of the crazy ones on this message board -- I think you're a reasonable human.
> 
> Personally I think the GOP should elevate Kinzinger.


Yeah a thief gets 6 months and a murderer gets 60 years, but either youre qualified to be president or your not.  Its completely irrelevant to me to what degree youre unqualified.  If you want to assert that Trump is more unqualified then Biden so be it.  I could argue that Trumps policies produced better results than Bidens but that doesnt make him qualified for office.  You could argue that Bidens rhetoric is less dangerous than Trumps but that doesnt make Joe more qualified.

We all need to stop settling for the least worst candidate.  Newsom vs DiSantis would only be marginally better than Trump v Biden.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Yeah a thief gets 6 months and a murderer gets 60 years, but either youre qualified to be president or your not.  Its completely irrelevant to me to what degree youre unqualified.  If you want to assert that Trump is more unqualified then Biden so be it.  I could argue that Trumps policies produced better results than Bidens but that doesnt make him qualified for office.  You could argue that Bidens rhetoric is less dangerous than Trumps but that doesnt make Joe more qualified.
> 
> We all need to stop settling for the least worst candidate.  Newsom vs DiSantis would only be marginally better than Trump v Biden.


We could argue one inherited a booming economy and the other a smoldering pile of ash.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> We all need to stop settling for the least worst candidate.  Newsom vs DiSantis would only be marginally better than Trump v Biden.


I can appreciate the desire for better candidates but I'll say Newsom and DiSantis are significantly better than Trump v Biden. With Trump and Biden, one is unfit to serve and the other is incapable. Yes, that's a low bar but it is a significant one.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> I think the issue with that statement is it's like saying a murderer and a thief both deserve to be in prison without any provided context.  I think many of us don't think Biden and Trump are remotely comparable and we need to come to terms with this as a country so we can get more aligned and fight the same fight.  Until there is this acknowledgment, it's hard to have a sane conversation.  I say this just as another lense.  Keep in mind @watfly I don't see you as one of the crazy ones on this message board -- I think you're a reasonable human.
> 
> Personally I think the GOP should elevate Kinzinger.


Or perhaps nominate Liz Cheney as the 2024 Presidential candidate, if for no other reason than to forestall her running as an independent and sucking up Republican votes.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Or perhaps nominate Liz Cheney as the 2024 Presidential candidate, if for no other reason than to forestall her running as an independent and sucking up Republican votes.


Short of felony convictions for Trump and multiple associates, I can't imagine the GOP nominating Cheney.

She'd have my vote on character alone, but that is not a common viewpoint.


----------



## graciesdad

All politicians suck. Period.


----------



## whatithink

watfly said:


> Operative word is "presented".  We have far more in common but were defined by the extremes and/or we vilify each other based upon on differences.  Of course, that comes with freedom of speech which is also what makes our country great.  Maybe more focus on responsibilties than rights.
> 
> Happy 4th y'all!


I actually think its the primary system that is the root cause, where a small number of extremist (from each side) hijack the candidates and then the electorate votes for a party. Add in gerrymandering from both D & Rs and you end up with a clusterF.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> I can appreciate the desire for better candidates but I'll say Newsom and DiSantis are significantly better than Trump v Biden. With Trump and Biden, one is unfit to serve and the other is incapable. Yes, that's a low bar but it is a significant one.


Governors do have far greater experience and they would be coming from the two of the largest states.  So they would at least be qualified.



whatithink said:


> I actually think its the primary system that is the root cause, where a small number of extremist (from each side) hijack the candidates and then the electorate votes for a party. Add in gerrymandering from both D & Rs and you end up with a clusterF.


Can't disagree with that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

graciesdad said:


> All politicians suck. Period.





whatithink said:


> I actually think its the primary system that is the root cause, where a small number of extremist (from each side) hijack the candidates and then the electorate votes for a party. Add in gerrymandering from both D & Rs and you end up with a clusterF.


There's truth in both statements. I'll add to that a biased media where you'll never get a clear picture of an issue using a single source. But it all comes down to us. We allow it. We vote on politicians. We accept it every time we vote. We accept it every time we use our favored news source version and disregard another's version without a thought.

We have become a nation where too many people not only believe in the way they live, (or, more correctly, the way they profess to live) but also believe other people should be forced to live the same way. Never mind that they have never even been to many of the places where they want their wisdom enforced. Humor is found in denigrating large swaths of our population. Pleasure is found when a pound of flesh is extracted from the "other" side. Accountability is something to be screamed for from one's opponents and avoided by one's comrades. Now, more than any time I remember, power is more important than actually solving problems. Is it any wonder we are so divided? Politicians and policies are just symptoms.

Ok, end of my sermon.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Wow, this doesn't sound good.









						After string of Supreme Court setbacks, Democrats wonder whether Biden White House is capable of urgency moment demands
					

Debra Messing was fed up. The former "Will & Grace" star was among dozens of celebrity Democratic supporters and activists who joined a call with White House aides last Monday to discuss the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.




					www.cnn.com
				




The bolded part is both humorous and telling.

Debra Messing was fed up. The former "Will & Grace" star was among dozens of celebrity Democratic supporters and activists who joined a call with White House aides last Monday to discuss the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.
The mood was fatalistic, according to three people on the call, which was also co-organized by the advocacy group Build Back Better Together.
*Messing said she'd gotten Joe Biden elected* and wanted to know why she was being asked to do anything at all, yelling that there didn't even seem a point to voting. Others wondered why the call was happening.


----------



## watfly

Better keep that mask on.   









						Microbes locked in Tibetan Plateau could spark a wave of new pandemics
					

Researchers from Lanzhou University studied 21 glaciers on the Tibetan Plateau and found evidence of 968 microbes, most of which have never been seen before.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## crush

Mask are back in NYC but only as a suggestion right now and lockdowns will be next for all of us soon. Hate to bring the bad news but some folks have been very naughty and this is their only way to keep playing their stupid games of deceit, lies with spies, cheating, assignations ((RIP Abe)), kickbacks for dirty play so they can earn their dirty pay. I know some who sold out for the dream but now they see they were 100% wrong and have capitulated. I am so proud of them. Forum bros.  I promised not to share PMs and I wont ever. The truth is truth and truth will always stand alone, without a political party.  All of you need to be shown the truth because you don't believe what has been told to you and the lesson has not been learned.  Now the real show begins.  BTW, China has three warships circling Japan like a Great White Shark right now. My brother in law lives in Japan and things are not good right now after Honest Abe was shot and killed.


----------



## crush

Truth from crush: I'm just getting over the new virus, weapon or plague they put out on us.  It hit me with mild conditions and I thought I beat it but it was only the beginning of my 6 days of hell.  I'm always first to get these things and I know 100% I will be stronger from it after my immune system does it's job. I am healthy and that saved me 100%. Here were my symptoms.  Fever, headache on first day, sore throat 2nd day, clogged up nose and cough, The Runs & Puking Day 3 and 4. Day 5 was yesterday and first day no puke or runs. Today I moved around and had some toast and apple juice. Nothing is staying in my stomach so why eat, right? This is nasty and real so get ready everyone. I'm not making this up. The worse part is I lost my taste big time and this has never happen to me. I can't taste shit and its not fun   I guess I ate some crow and humble pie with being a little too cocky about these viruses. I haven't been sick for two years and I guess I thought I was immune to all this, not!!! This was nasty and very tough on my body. I have never had all these symptoms all at once and it was no good and so hard my my body.  I will keep you all posted on my taste because I want taste buds back.


----------



## crush

Get ready for the big lockdown coming folks. Real and honest elections in the Mid terms will literally destroy the Dems and send many of them to prison or worse and they all know it so what will they do? Cheat, steal and lie some more and force us all on lockdown again with a new emergency of another virus. The virus is real and you best better be in damn good shape for this bio weapon folks. I'm dead serious. They will spew lies and cause division and blame people like crush for not obeying the Covidian Cult and get all the jabs.


----------



## crush

I actually think I got the Ninja and not Monkey Pox. You guys, this is no joke.  It really doesn;t matter what it is, it's already been released. Please, eat healthy and stay safe. No mask needed because you won;t be leaving the house. Find your favorite toilet in the house and be close by is all all I can say.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

This New ‘Ninja’ COVID Variant Is the Most Dangerous One Yet
					

Photo Illustration by Thomas Levinson/The Daily Beast/GettyThe latest subvariant of the novel coronavirus to become dominant in Europe, the United States, and other places is also, in many ways, the worst so far.The BA.5 subvariant of the basic Omicron variant appears to be more contagious than...




					www.yahoo.com
				




---

In that sense, BA5 might be a preview of the months and years to come. *A year ago, we had a chance to block SARS-CoV-2’s main transmission vectors through vaccines and social distancing.*

But we didn’t. Restrictions on businesses, schools and crowds have become politically toxic all over the world. Vaccination rates remained stubbornly low, even in many countries with easy access to jabs. In the U.S., for example, the percentage of fully vaccinated has stalled at around 67 percent.

The Massive Screwup That Could Let COVID Bypass Our Vaccines

So COVID lingers, 31 months after the first case was diagnosed in Wuhan, China. The longer the virus circulates, the more variants it produces. BA.5 is the all but inevitable result of that tragic dynamic.

---

The simple-mindedness of this take is breathtaking. Let's add a little balance to what it takes and how "successful" we (we the world, mind you, not just the US) could have expected to be if only we were as committed as China.









						Zero Covid holds danger for China's Xi
					

The leader is seeking a historic third term amid an economic slump and growing fatigue over Covid.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> This New ‘Ninja’ COVID Variant Is the Most Dangerous One Yet
> 
> 
> Photo Illustration by Thomas Levinson/The Daily Beast/GettyThe latest subvariant of the novel coronavirus to become dominant in Europe, the United States, and other places is also, in many ways, the worst so far.The BA.5 subvariant of the basic Omicron variant appears to be more contagious than...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> In that sense, BA5 might be a preview of the months and years to come. *A year ago, we had a chance to block SARS-CoV-2’s main transmission vectors through vaccines and social distancing.*
> 
> But we didn’t. Restrictions on businesses, schools and crowds have become politically toxic all over the world. Vaccination rates remained stubbornly low, even in many countries with easy access to jabs. In the U.S., for example, the percentage of fully vaccinated has stalled at around 67 percent.
> 
> The Massive Screwup That Could Let COVID Bypass Our Vaccines
> 
> So COVID lingers, 31 months after the first case was diagnosed in Wuhan, China. The longer the virus circulates, the more variants it produces. BA.5 is the all but inevitable result of that tragic dynamic.
> 
> ---
> 
> The simple-mindedness of this take is breathtaking. Let's add a little balance to what it takes and how "successful" we (we the world, mind you, not just the US) could have expected to be if only we were as committed as China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Covid holds danger for China's Xi
> 
> 
> The leader is seeking a historic third term amid an economic slump and growing fatigue over Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


The Guidestones in GA said the goal of the Global Elitist from WEF is a population of 500,000,000 in the whole world.  It ((The evil Stones)) got blown up the other night btw and no way were letting these monsters rule the planet at 500M.  Did you see all the poor people swimming in the palace in Sir Lanka? I loved it. I want a Day at the Bay for all my pals in East LA some day


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> This New ‘Ninja’ COVID Variant Is the Most Dangerous One Yet
> 
> 
> Photo Illustration by Thomas Levinson/The Daily Beast/GettyThe latest subvariant of the novel coronavirus to become dominant in Europe, the United States, and other places is also, in many ways, the worst so far.The BA.5 subvariant of the basic Omicron variant appears to be more contagious than...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> In that sense, BA5 might be a preview of the months and years to come. *A year ago, we had a chance to block SARS-CoV-2’s main transmission vectors through vaccines and social distancing.*
> 
> But we didn’t. Restrictions on businesses, schools and crowds have become politically toxic all over the world. Vaccination rates remained stubbornly low, even in many countries with easy access to jabs. In the U.S., for example, the percentage of fully vaccinated has stalled at around 67 percent.
> 
> The Massive Screwup That Could Let COVID Bypass Our Vaccines
> 
> So COVID lingers, 31 months after the first case was diagnosed in Wuhan, China. The longer the virus circulates, the more variants it produces. BA.5 is the all but inevitable result of that tragic dynamic.
> 
> ---
> 
> The simple-mindedness of this take is breathtaking. Let's add a little balance to what it takes and how "successful" we (we the world, mind you, not just the US) could have expected to be if only we were as committed as China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Covid holds danger for China's Xi
> 
> 
> The leader is seeking a historic third term amid an economic slump and growing fatigue over Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Why do you think that we would have been better about vaccines and distance?

The vaccine skeptics in the US are also skeptical about masks, distance, moving outside, and covid in general.  

If policies on "businesses, schools, and crowds" had been looser, that would not have prompted them to get vaccinated.  They'd just say "I told you it was nothing", and go on doing what they were going to do anyway.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Why do you think that we would have been better about vaccines and distance?
> 
> The vaccine skeptics in the US are also skeptical about masks, distance, moving outside, and covid in general.
> 
> If policies on "businesses, schools, and crowds" had been looser, that would not have prompted them to get vaccinated.  They'd just say "I told you it was nothing", and go on doing what they were going to do anyway.


Yes, we vaccine are skeptics and we think with our brain first ((not our pocket book)) and are critical thinkers and suspicious of those who have been bought, bribed and blackmailed and want us to give up our God given rights. I have a immune system and I don;t need no vaccine.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Why do you think that we would have been better about vaccines and distance?
> 
> The vaccine skeptics in the US are also skeptical about masks, distance, moving outside, and covid in general.
> 
> If policies on "businesses, schools, and crowds" had been looser, that would not have prompted them to get vaccinated.  They'd just say "I told you it was nothing", and go on doing what they were going to do anyway.


Do you mean, “we” as in the US only would be better? That wasn’t my point. I simply used what I believe the writer meant by “we” —> the world. Given that these variants started in other countries, it’s even more ridiculous to assume these things wouldn’t have happened if the US had a higher vaccination rate. I gave the writer the most forgiving definition of “we” - and the one I believe he meant to use.

The article itself mentions that Chinese leadership believes their vaccination rate isn’t high enough. What hope do free and highly culturally diverse countries have if China can’t manage to accomplish a high enough vaccination rate? No hope.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Why do you think that we would have been better about vaccines and distance?
> 
> The vaccine skeptics in the US are also skeptical about masks, distance, moving outside, and covid in general.
> 
> If policies on "businesses, schools, and crowds" had been looser, that would not have prompted them to get vaccinated.  They'd just say "I told you it was nothing", and go on doing what they were going to do anyway.


I'm pretty sure it's public knowledge that we are dealing witha  virus?? a novel one at that.

I could throw some scary mediciny and sciency words at you that would scare everyone...but this is a virus, one that we quite haven't figured out.  probably never will.  vaccine pot is still boiling though.  

masks don't work, zip, nothing.  Distance works (of course) and being outside is good.unfortunately humans interact inside and outside, mostly inside.  We've become so soft and furry that we need heating and AC.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do you mean, “we” as in the US only would be better? That wasn’t my point. I simply used what I believe the writer meant by “we” —> the world. Given that these variants started in other countries, it’s even more ridiculous to assume these things wouldn’t have happened if the US had a higher vaccination rate. I gave the writer the most forgiving definition of “we” - and the one I believe he meant to use.
> 
> The article itself mentions that Chinese leadership believes their vaccination rate isn’t high enough. What hope do free and highly culturally diverse countries have if China can’t manage to accomplish a high enough vaccination rate? No hope.


The Chinese leadership is probably right that their vax rate is too low.  Part of the problem is that the Chinese leadership tried pushing low quality vaccines.  

Not sure how that applies here.  We had high quality vaccines and a low quality public discussion.  Not much you can do when 1/3 of the country just flat out ignores the evidence on masks, distance, fresh air, and vaccines.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *We had high quality vaccines *


That are killing quality people who had no business being killed loser. Perfectly healthy athletes dying of heart attacks all over the world. Young people who can't play sports now because of myocarditis.  Justin Bever lost half his face and his wife has blood clots. My best pal just died of heart attack.  Immune system will fight this and being healthy, not some foreign poison from the CCP. You will go down as the worse dad ever, sorry man, it's the Truth. Your advice has literally killed people. Great job dad way to stay to the end with your death jab. Life insurance is going OB because of all the deaths.


----------



## crush

Huge spike in deaths in Canada and the USA! The #1 cause of death is now called, "Death for Unknown reason." WTF up folks. I hold no grunges on any of you but Dad and his crew are going to be called out for spreading death and destruction on this forum. I have a video of over 400 athletes who have died from cardiac arrest in the last 18 months. I know a Volleyball player who had to quit sports because of the jab. I actually care about all of you believe it or not. I take no joy in this but they want only 500,000,000 and your not in the club.


----------



## crush

Leaked video of Zuckerberg speaking to his staff about the ‘vaccines’ several months ago
					

It’s still very relevant. Anyone saying what he’s saying on FB would be immediately censored and deplatformed.




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

Taking The Vax Was An Easy Decision For Him - Continuing Play At Wimbledon, Not So Much Now
					

FULLY POISONED TENNIS PLAYER QUITS WIMBLEDON TOURNAMENT BECAUSE OF "ABDOMINAL INJURY"...Of course as the bootcamp channel and the rest of us know, that would be a Covid vax injury. Playing days are over. Unless he wants to drop dead of a heart attac…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

*Can’t Make This Up: Pfizer Asks Court to Dismiss Whistleblower Lawsuit Because the US Government Was Aware of Vaccine Fraud*


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Taking The Vax Was An Easy Decision For Him - Continuing Play At Wimbledon, Not So Much Now
> 
> 
> FULLY POISONED TENNIS PLAYER QUITS WIMBLEDON TOURNAMENT BECAUSE OF "ABDOMINAL INJURY"...Of course as the bootcamp channel and the rest of us know, that would be a Covid vax injury. Playing days are over. Unless he wants to drop dead of a heart attac…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bitchute.com


LOL.  Some low info bitchute bro wants to play Latin roots with myocarditis vs. abdominal myofibril dislocation.  Please to send good American dollars via PayPal or Venmo. "Inhale this but do not touch"...


----------



## crush

(I'm GONNA) KEEP ON DRUGGING YOU-OOOOO !
					

================ (world orders review) ================ (I'm GONNA) KEEP ON DRUGGING YOU ! [MrE] https://www.bitchute.com/video/mweaDg56sMCU/ ------------------------- Song written by Kevin Cronin. Performed by myself, an octave lower than Kev…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Grace T.

More confirmation of what we already knew.  Covid school closures were a global disaster and the US was one of the longest to have schools closed, though apparently not quite as bad as the Philippines.









						Covid learning loss has been a global disaster
					

Millions of children are still out of school. The costs are stacking up




					www.economist.com


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I can appreciate the desire for better candidates but I'll say Newsom and DiSantis are significantly better than Trump v Biden. With Trump and Biden, one is unfit to serve and the other is incapable. Yes, that's a low bar but it is a significant one.


I'm not liking the signs I'm seeing.  Have returned from a trip to the middle of the country and can confirm they are still deeply passionate about Trump.  Plus his recent rallies attract a crowd which DeSantis can only imagine to happen.  DeSantis is a better brawler than Trump but he lacks the same snake oil salesman charm.  Unless Trump is indicted or something happens to his health or some other reason he can't run, or DeSantis and his supporters somehow persuade Trump not to run (good luck with that), I'm beginning to think the reality is it will be Trump.

Meanwhile Biden is pretty much gone.  There was always a question whether he was going to be able to run again in 2022 but the most recent teleprompter and other issues make it apparent he is deteriorating quickly now.  His media allies are openly questioning his competence now.   His poll ratings have completely collapsed.  Because of really really bad choices the Rs made the Ds may still hold the Senate but they are headed into a really bad collapse in the house and on the state levels for which Biden will get the blame.

BTW we really are living in two Americas now.  Saw first hand one America that no one wears a mask (even in situations that make me uncomfortable and where vax uptake isn't very high) and that is celebrating the end of Roe and that during the 4th celebrations breaks into rousing chants of "let's go Brandon", and now one in Los Angeles where people are blocking the freeways for Roe and 1/2 the people in the markets are wearing masks again.  I'm really beginning to question how the country can stay together under such circumstances, when everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I'm not liking the signs I'm seeing.  Have returned from a trip to the middle of the country and can confirm they are still deeply passionate about Trump.  Plus his recent rallies attract a crowd which DeSantis can only imagine to happen.  DeSantis is a better brawler than Trump but he lacks the same snake oil salesman charm.  Unless Trump is indicted or something happens to his health or some other reason he can't run, or DeSantis and his supporters somehow persuade Trump not to run (good luck with that), I'm beginning to think the reality is it will be Trump.
> 
> Meanwhile Biden is pretty much gone.  There was always a question whether he was going to be able to run again in 2022 but the most recent teleprompter and other issues make it apparent he is deteriorating quickly now.  His media allies are openly questioning his competence now.   His poll ratings have completely collapsed.  Because of really really bad choices the Rs made the Ds may still hold the Senate but they are headed into a really bad collapse in the house and on the state levels for which Biden will get the blame.
> 
> BTW we really are living in two Americas now.  Saw first hand one America that no one wears a mask (even in situations that make me uncomfortable and where vax uptake isn't very high) and that is celebrating the end of Roe and that during the 4th celebrations breaks into rousing chants of "let's go Brandon", and now one in Los Angeles where people are blocking the freeways for Roe and 1/2 the people in the markets are wearing masks again.  I'm really beginning to question how the country can stay together under such circumstances, when everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat.


A little more time Grace T and all the TRUTH will be revealed.  I see your starting to wake up and that is good. We have New York and California vs the Rest of The States. Bronze Bruce is the Ghost in the machine. The Military will have to help us straighten out the great divide. TDS runs deep in our country and Joe and Hunter sold us all out to the CCP and Marxist. Nancy is in Italy seeing her family at a place that does not share the price of the cost. San Francisco is trash now. I just had another friends dd quit her college and is now safe in Florida.


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I'm not liking the signs I'm seeing.  Have returned from a trip to the middle of the country and can confirm they are still deeply passionate about Trump.  Plus his recent rallies attract a crowd which DeSantis can only imagine to happen.  DeSantis is a better brawler than Trump but he lacks the same snake oil salesman charm.  Unless Trump is indicted or something happens to his health or some other reason he can't run, or DeSantis and his supporters somehow persuade Trump not to run (good luck with that), I'm beginning to think the reality is it will be Trump.
> 
> Meanwhile Biden is pretty much gone.  There was always a question whether he was going to be able to run again in 2022 but the most recent teleprompter and other issues make it apparent he is deteriorating quickly now.  His media allies are openly questioning his competence now.   His poll ratings have completely collapsed.  Because of really really bad choices the Rs made the Ds may still hold the Senate but they are headed into a really bad collapse in the house and on the state levels for which Biden will get the blame.
> 
> BTW we really are living in two Americas now.  Saw first hand one America that no one wears a mask (even in situations that make me uncomfortable and where vax uptake isn't very high) and that is celebrating the end of Roe and that during the 4th celebrations breaks into rousing chants of "let's go Brandon", and now one in Los Angeles where people are blocking the freeways for Roe and 1/2 the people in the markets are wearing masks again.  I'm really beginning to question how the country can stay together under such circumstances, when everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat.


Are you suggesting that people in the"middle of the country" are stupid?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Are you suggesting that people in the"middle of the country" are stupid?


No, she is saying they don't live and think like you Espola and they do believe in God, unlike you.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*San Francisco children walk past open-air drug den on way home from school, shocking video shows: report



Their people suffer and their leader is chilling on a nice beach in Italy with her hubby Paul.  What State is stupid Espola?

*


----------



## crush

Hunter's phone is now online at 4Chan for all to see.  Here is a pic of Hunter with one of his mentors George Soros. The same guy who said he became a Christian only to rat out his Jewish neighbors and send them to the gas chamber as a Hitler youth snitch.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Slaves!!!!


----------



## crush

Sick Monsters!!!









						Fitton: Documents show Obama FDA buying fetal heads 'fresh, never frozen' - Judicial Watch
					

Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton joined @One America News Network to discuss a new batch of documents given to Judicial Watch show how the Obama FDA were buying fetal heads ‘fresh, and never frozen.’ WATCH NOW! We have joined Parler and Rumble! Follow us @JudicialWatch to stay updated on the...



					www.judicialwatch.org


----------



## crush

NEW — "John McEnroe on Biden not allowing unvaccinated Djokovic into America to play in the US Open: "These politicians are getting in the way too much. They did it in Australia. Let's let the guy come in and play in the U.S. I mean, c'mon, this is ridiculous!"'


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Here's another entry for the "no long term studies, kids have no risk" file.









						Mild respiratory COVID can cause multi-lineage neural cell and myelin dysregulation
					

Mild respiratory COVID causes neuroinflammation and multi-lineage cellular dysregulation in the central nervous system, a phenomenon mirroring cancer-therapy-related cognitive impairment.



					www.cell.com
				




The paper has an interesting back story. One of the senior authors has devoted their career to understanding "brain fog/neuro-sensory problems" in cancer patients treated with old school chemotherapy drugs like methotrexate. The observation was that those symptoms match the range of chronic neuroinflammatory sequalae currently being lumped together as "long Covid".  So they used their existing body of data to see if there were similar underlying molecular/cellular mechanisms. And that appears to be the case.  If your immune system is configured in a susceptible way, Cov2 is like chemotherapy.

The results are that even mild Cov2 infection in terms of respiratory symptoms can induce substantial neuroinflammation.  The paper identifies microglia, which are cytokine secreting cells in the CSF, as being activated by Cov-2 infection.  The CSF cytokines secreted by microglia act to inhibit a population of brain cells called astrocytes which are responsible for myelination of neurons.  And if the myelination is reduced neurons become more prone for cell death.  That's what spelled out in the abstract.

Importantly, the age structure/risk factors for serious respiratory C19 don't correlate with what is emerging  as persistent neuroinflammatory problems associated with Cov-2 infection, which range from annoying to long term debilitating. Long term consequences is anybody's guess. The importance of this work is that with specific molecules and cell populations to look at it should be possible to tease that apart more quickly and see to what extent current vaccines reduce CSF cytokine storms like they clearly do with the humoral IL6 circuit.  And it will be important to see what's going on with infected kids/young adults.  It could work out either way.  There's lots of CNS plasticity in young people compared to us old timers. That neuronal plasticity could help circumvent the effects of CoV-2-induce CSF hyperinflammation.  Or it could make the developmental processes of establishing neuronal hook ups more susceptible.  We'll just have to see.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I'm not liking the signs I'm seeing.  Have returned from a trip to the middle of the country and can confirm they are still deeply passionate about Trump.  Plus his recent rallies attract a crowd which DeSantis can only imagine to happen.  DeSantis is a better brawler than Trump but he lacks the same snake oil salesman charm.  Unless Trump is indicted or something happens to his health or some other reason he can't run, or DeSantis and his supporters somehow persuade Trump not to run (good luck with that), I'm beginning to think the reality is it will be Trump.
> 
> Meanwhile Biden is pretty much gone.  There was always a question whether he was going to be able to run again in 2022 but the most recent teleprompter and other issues make it apparent he is deteriorating quickly now.  His media allies are openly questioning his competence now.   His poll ratings have completely collapsed.  Because of really really bad choices the Rs made the Ds may still hold the Senate but they are headed into a really bad collapse in the house and on the state levels for which Biden will get the blame.
> 
> BTW we really are living in two Americas now.  Saw first hand one America that no one wears a mask (even in situations that make me uncomfortable and where vax uptake isn't very high) and that is celebrating the end of Roe and that during the 4th celebrations breaks into rousing chants of "let's go Brandon", and now one in Los Angeles where people are blocking the freeways for Roe and 1/2 the people in the markets are wearing masks again.  I'm really beginning to question how the country can stay together under such circumstances, when everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat.


I'm sorry to hear about the passion for Trump. He has done an amazing job of harnessing the open and celebrated contempt directed toward large segments of the population.

It will be interesting to see how the COVID "migration" plays out. Previously, movement from CA and NY to "red" states tended to make them less red - although I never saw any studies indicating that was the source of the change. I am wondering if the political leanings of those that moved weren't further right and the COVID migration will tend to increase the political divide between states.

As you say, "everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat." and as our resident wannabe-woke hermit says - Are you suggesting that people in the"middle of the country" are stupid? I'm not sure how we overcome this level of division. I'm to the point where I think we need to consider some type of independence of states.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm to the point where I think we need to consider *some type of independence of states.*


No, we need Nations first to be respected. The Global Elite assholes who control us want a Liberal World Order.  Not a New World Order, only Liberal only world, which = no God allowed! Agnostic people don't get it yet and that is not a knock on you brother, it's just the facts. This is Gods planet not Klause and his crew or Hollywood. You see the Light someday and then we can have that beer....lol.  Love you man and God wins!


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Here's another entry for the "no long term studies, kids have no risk" file.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mild respiratory COVID can cause multi-lineage neural cell and myelin dysregulation
> 
> 
> Mild respiratory COVID causes neuroinflammation and multi-lineage cellular dysregulation in the central nervous system, a phenomenon mirroring cancer-therapy-related cognitive impairment.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cell.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The paper has an interesting back story. One of the senior authors has devoted their career to understanding "brain fog/neuro-sensory problems" in cancer patients treated with old school chemotherapy drugs like methotrexate. The observation was that those symptoms match the range of chronic neuroinflammatory sequalae currently being lumped together as "long Covid".  So they used their existing body of data to see if there were similar underlying molecular/cellular mechanisms. And that appears to be the case.  If your immune system is configured in a susceptible way, Cov2 is like chemotherapy.
> 
> The results are that even mild Cov2 infection in terms of respiratory symptoms can induce substantial neuroinflammation.  The paper identifies microglia, which are cytokine secreting cells in the CSF, as being activated by Cov-2 infection.  The CSF cytokines secreted by microglia act to inhibit a population of brain cells called astrocytes which are responsible for myelination of neurons.  And if the myelination is reduced neurons become more prone for cell death.  That's what spelled out in the abstract.
> 
> Importantly, the age structure/risk factors for serious respiratory C19 don't correlate with what is emerging  as persistent neuroinflammatory problems associated with Cov-2 infection, which range from annoying to long term debilitating. Long term consequences is anybody's guess. The importance of this work is that with specific molecules and cell populations to look at it should be possible to tease that apart more quickly and see to what extent current vaccines reduce CSF cytokine storms like they clearly do with the humoral IL6 circuit.  And it will be important to see what's going on with infected kids/young adults.  It could work out either way.  There's lots of CNS plasticity in young people compared to us old timers. That neuronal plasticity could help circumvent the effects of CoV-2-induce CSF hyperinflammation.  Or it could make the developmental processes of establishing neuronal hook ups more susceptible.  We'll just have to see.


Would this be a valid reason for and justify closing schools?

Are mice studies applicable to humans?









						Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Tyler Durden

The elite control both political sides and harness emotion and race to divide so that they can take more profits.  All this media and article writing is political theater.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Are mice studies applicable to humans?


See Figure 5.



watfly said:


> Would this be a valid reason for and justify closing schools?


I made one "here's what I'd do if I ran the zoo" policy IMO on this thread.  I did the post just before the delta summer of death.  I ended up feeling I have the luxury of not having to make those calls, to deal with the tradeoffs, and to live dwelling on outcomes.  

So for the school shutdown I choose to only speak for my family.  There were pros and cons.  With my younger daughter it was frustrating at times, she has pretty serious ADHD. In being forced to get down in the trenches and deal with that I got to discover how her mind worked-what learning was for her. I think we have a much closer relationship now in some ways than before the pandemic, for which I'm grateful. It was of course hard, but we took lemons and made lemonade and tried to have some fun.  I came away with an enhanced appreciation for what elementary school teachers do. So what's justified or not justified?  The way I might frame the question and make the necessary value calls is probably different than you would.   There is no one answer. It was what it was and will likely be again in the coming decades.  I do think we will have more geographically tailored public health polices next time and that may be helpful.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> So for the school shutdown I choose to only speak for my family.  There were pros and cons.  With my younger daughter it was frustrating at times, *she has pretty serious ADHD*. In being forced to get down in the trenches and deal with that I got to discover how her mind worked-what learning was for her. I think we have a much closer relationship now in some ways than before the pandemic, for which I'm grateful. I


And guess where ADHD came from Evil? WTF did Autism come from? Start connecting the dots and please, get off the Juice brother!  I'm super stoked to hear you got closer to your dd and that is awesome. My son was pissed off having to come home and live in my living for room 18 months doing online college. My dd is a social butterfly and got two years stolen. It's all been a blessing but when you go through discipline like we all did, it will produce righteousness for those who have been trained by it and bitterness for those who fight it.


----------



## crush

NEW - U.S. set to extend COVID "health emergency" on Friday, according to media reports.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm sorry to hear about the passion for Trump. He has done an amazing job of harnessing the open and celebrated contempt directed toward large segments of the population.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the COVID "migration" plays out. Previously, movement from CA and NY to "red" states tended to make them less red - although I never saw any studies indicating that was the source of the change. I am wondering if the political leanings of those that moved weren't further right and the COVID migration will tend to increase the political divide between states.
> 
> As you say, "everything the other 1/2 of the country does is such an existential threat." and as our resident wannabe-woke hermit says - Are you suggesting that people in the"middle of the country" are stupid? I'm not sure how we overcome this level of division. I'm to the point where I think we need to consider some type of independence of states.


Compared to Grace, I came away from my latest mid-American juant with a more hopeful feel for the American project compared to previous trips. Sampling error maybe. For your last point, you might consider reading Colin Woodward's "American Nations". It's a great book and actually benefits from being written before the Trump catalyst.  The basic thesis is that America was colonized by essentially a rando set of refugees with different political outlooks who have been battling each other ever since, forming coalitions leading to the "red" vs "blue" stalemate we have today. The last chapter of the book deals with possible outcomes-ways to possibly stop fighting with each other.  One interesting suggestion is a type of EU model, with considerable autonomy between these "nations" but with collective economic and defense obligations. I suspect it would need to be more a city-state vs hinterlands type of arrangement as opposed to current state boundaries, which, once you get past the eastern seaboard, are pretty arbitrary. Of course it is all pie in the sky since nobody is going to be agreeing on much of anything for the immediate future.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> And guess where ADHD came from Evil? WTF did Autism come from? Start connecting the dots and please, get off the Juice brother!  I'm super stoked to hear you got closer to your dd and that is awesome. My son was pissed off having to come home and live in my living for room 18 months doing online college. My dd is a social butterfly and got two years stolen. It's all been a blessing but when you go through discipline like we all did, it will produce righteousness for those who have been trained by it and bitterness for those who fight it.


She had the ADHD diagnosis before the pandemic so.....

Well, I guess it could be something tied into an evil cabal world order in which we're all being exploited and the Storm, Freedom and Truth is coming. Really soon.  Real, real soon.  Wait for it.  It's almost here. You'll see. Brethren of the Seven Churces I write to tell you of my recent experiences with the ergot, with which I have recently been sorely afflicted.  Something like that.

Or maybe her ADHD is just how her own brain is put together and doesn't have anything to do with the pandemic or Hunter Biden or the price of tea in China.  Nah.  It can't be that.  All the dots have to connect.  

Like I said, I want you to stay on your Juice and I'll stay on mine.  Keep soaking it up and showing it to me. 

You seem to be feeling better and back to your old self.  I am glad to hear it, and I mean that.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> She had the ADHD diagnosis before the pandemic so.....
> 
> You seem to be feeling better and back to your old self.  I am glad to hear it, and I mean that.


Did she take all her vaccines as a baby? I am back 100% and I am FIRED UP and ready to ball bro. You have no idea how long I have been waiting for all this to go down.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Compared to Grace, I came away from my latest mid-American juant with a more hopeful feel for the American project compared to previous trips. Sampling error maybe. For your last point, you might consider reading Colin Woodward's "American Nations". It's a great book and actually benefits from being written before the Trump catalyst.  The basic thesis is that America was colonized by essentially a rando set of refugees with different political outlooks who have been battling each other ever since, forming coalitions leading to the "red" vs "blue" stalemate we have today. The last chapter of the book deals with possible outcomes-ways to possibly stop fighting with each other.  One interesting suggestion is a type of EU model, with considerable autonomy between these "nations" but with collective economic and defense obligations. I suspect it would need to be more a city-state vs hinterlands type of arrangement as opposed to current state boundaries, which, once you get past the eastern seaboard, are pretty arbitrary. Of course it is all pie in the sky since nobody is going to be agreeing on much of anything for the immediate future.


This ignores the trends that are going on in the rest of the world including Sri Lanka, Colombia, the Netherlands and Canada.  It goes beyond the USA.  The entire history of the 20th century can be summed up in one film: "Auntie Maime".  In Auntie Maime, many outsiders (single mothers, LGBTQ, Jewish people and other minorities, artists and actors, care free liberals) who consider themselves well-off and elite, resent that they've been excluded by the traditional Republican white shoe/big business upper class, who look down on them.  The struggle of the 20th century was these distinct well-off groups (for other examples, see the Cosby Show, Will & Grace, Modern Family) achieving recognition as part of the elite.  However, these elite left other groups (working class people of all races) outside the tent of respectability.  What's more is this new elite had a lot more in common with the old elite than they did with those outside the tent: a globalist vision-- one where borders are no longer as important, where trade is free, where nations cooperate to police the world, where capitalism protects the interest of the well-off but provides a moderate social safety net, and where certain social issues near and dear to them are prized, and where expertise is valued above all.  It's where the EU was born, and why the EU is drifting (now with the weight of Brexit thrown off) into ever greater unity (particularly now with the Russian threat).

But those outside the tent had a distinct feeling that they were normally being thrown under the bus (with rules such as with respect to COVID and climate change applying to them, but not their elitist betters) and were being looked down upon (the Obama guns and religion remarks).  So, there are two temptations for them to overthrow the world globalist elitist order: a) socialism: think Bernie bros or the socialist wave sweeping South America, under the idea that the previous models weren't true democratic socialist models, and b) populism (which is why they like Trump so much...not only does he fight back, but unlike DeSantis, Trump is loved because he's been treated like an outsider just like them).

I agree superfederalism in a very loose EU like confederation would fix this.  But there are two problems with that.  1. the EU itself (like most institutions) tends to drift to greater centralization and greater unity because the power holders like to amalgamate and enhance their rule, and 2. the globalists will never agree to it: there are too many changes they regard as existential whether climate change, abortion access, COVID rules, or their own social status, which this type of arrangement would overcome.  My worry is that we are headed to a lot more Sri Lankas, a lot more Canadas, and a lot more Netherlands.  It's actually kind of funny that it started in Canada: we see the globalist reaction that will happen and eventually it just fizzled (the Canadians are so nice of a people, after all).  I fear Sri Lanka is really just the first domino to fall, and given what's coming, we are going to see a lot more of it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Compared to Grace, I came away from my latest mid-American juant with a more hopeful feel for the American project compared to previous trips. Sampling error maybe. For your last point, you might consider reading Colin Woodward's "American Nations". It's a great book and actually benefits from being written before the Trump catalyst.  The basic thesis is that America was colonized by essentially a rando set of refugees with different political outlooks who have been battling each other ever since, forming coalitions leading to the "red" vs "blue" stalemate we have today. The last chapter of the book deals with possible outcomes-ways to possibly stop fighting with each other.  One interesting suggestion is a type of EU model, with considerable autonomy between these "nations" but with collective economic and defense obligations. I suspect it would need to be more a city-state vs hinterlands type of arrangement as opposed to current state boundaries, which, once you get past the eastern seaboard, are pretty arbitrary. Of course it is all pie in the sky since nobody is going to be agreeing on much of anything for the immediate future.


It's good to hear some positive experiences.

I like the "type of EU model" presented. From my perspective, it would be a best-case scenario outcome. I also agree it's at least a bit pie in the sky. As long as we are on that path, I'll go full pie in the sky. A friend of mine mentioned the following for the Supreme Court. If they can't get at least 7 of 9 justices (75% was what he suggested), the power goes back to the states. Same for overturning existing laws of the land. It adds stability but slows the pace of national change.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> She had the ADHD diagnosis before the pandemic so.....
> 
> Well, I guess it could be something tied into an evil cabal world order in which we're all being exploited and the Storm, Freedom and Truth is coming. Really soon.  Real, real soon.  Wait for it.  It's almost here. You'll see. Brethren of the Seven Churces I write to tell you of my recent experiences with the ergot, with which I have recently been sorely afflicted.  Something like that.
> 
> Or maybe her ADHD is just how her own brain is put together and doesn't have anything to do with the pandemic or Hunter Biden or the price of tea in China.  Nah.  It can't be that.  All the dots have to connect.
> 
> Like I said, I want you to stay on your Juice and I'll stay on mine.  Keep soaking it up and showing it to me.
> 
> You seem to be feeling better and back to your old self.  I am glad to hear it, and I mean that.


ADHD is just how certain brains have been wired.  It's evolutionary.  On the hunt, they needed people who could focus in on the tracks to get the mastadon, and they also needed people who were scanning around and could yell "saber tooth tiger!".  

Where crush has a bit of a point is that even though ADHD might just be how a brain is put together, the way we treat it has been entirely influenced by politics and society.  Rather than accept, hey these people just are uniquely evolved and there might be a purpose on that, we seek to correct it as a problem.  It's a problem because our society has developed credentialism as the means to evaluate people (whether in soccer, or in the classroom, or on the job) and testing has become central to credentialism (and ADHD people do not do well with the current regime of testing).  So you have to "fix" the problem through therapy, medication, and accommodations (which the elite just happen to be particularly good at getting) so these kids can take their justified place in the upper middle class.  That it helps finance an entire ADHD industrial complex is just an added side benefit.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I do think we will have more geographically tailored public health polices next time and that may be helpful.


Agreed, but I would add demographic and risk based tailoring.  The biggest failure with our policies was the "one size fits all" approach.  

In terms of school closures,  I don't know how anyone can justify closing them by giving more weight to unknown long-term risks versus known short-term and long-term risks and consequences.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I agree superfederalism in a very loose EU like confederation would fix this.  But there are two problems with that.  1. *the EU itself (like most institutions) tends to drift to greater centralization and greater unity because the power holders like to amalgamate and enhance their rule*


Human nature indicates that the "drift to greater centralization" is a constant battle that will never be won - just continuously fought.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Human nature indicates that the "drift to greater centralization" is a constant battle that will never be won - just continuously fought.


Like entropy.....but there are forces of nature that periodically do reverse it (like birth) temporarily back towards order even though the march is inexorable toward entropy

Well it does bring two thoughts to mind:
1. If we survive that long, one world government will eventually happen (though it may take a long long time and it may not be the Star Trek utopia people think it will be) and
2. We probably won't survive that long.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> So for the school shutdown I choose to only speak for my family.  There were pros and cons.  With my younger daughter it was frustrating at times, she has pretty serious ADHD. In being forced to get down in the trenches and deal with that I got to discover how her mind worked-what learning was for her. I think we have a much closer relationship now in some ways than before the pandemic, for which I'm grateful. It was of course hard, but we took lemons and made lemonade and tried to have some fun.  I came away with an enhanced appreciation for what elementary school teachers do. So what's justified or not justified?  The way I might frame the question and make the necessary value calls is probably different than you would.   There is no one answer. It was what it was and will likely be again in the coming decades.  I do think we will have more geographically tailored public health polices next time and that may be helpful.


Yes, we made the best of the lockdown, but we we're far from strict lock downers.  We made cost vs. benefit decisions that in hindsight worked well for our family.  Our children had social lives during the lockdowns and we're never separated from their relatives.  It was harder on my HS daughter than my MS son, who had the time of his life.  How well your or our family fared is largely irrelevant.  We had the resources to mitigate damages from Covid lockdowns, many did not or had issues that made them more susceptible to isolation and distance learning.   It has only put a greater wedge between the haves and the have nots, which could last long term for some families.

Wholeheartedly agree with you that elementary school teachers were awesome, high school teachers not so much.  A lot of them just "mailed it in".


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Yes, we made the best of the lockdown, but we we're far from strict lock downers.  We made cost vs. benefit decisions that in hindsight worked well for our family.  Our children had social lives during the lockdowns and we're never separated from their relatives.  It was harder on my HS daughter than my MS son, who had the time of his life.  How well your or our family fared is largely irrelevant.  We had the resources to mitigate damages from Covid lockdowns, many did not or had issues that made them more susceptible to isolation and distance learning.   It has only put a greater wedge between the haves and the have nots, which could last long term for some families.
> 
> Wholeheartedly agree with you that elementary school teachers were awesome, high school teachers not so much.  A lot of them just "mailed it in".


Our local public schools were completely caught unaware by what was happening and shut down on the assumption it was going to be two weeks but then remained completely closed for a month, some very basic remote self-learning in the spring of '20 (basically that entire quarter and a half was lost) and were only electronically ready for remote learning in the fall of '20.

The private middle schools for my family had medical experts on their emergency response boards and were ready to go from day 1 of shut downs with remote learning especially since all the kids were required already to have a lap top.  In fact, the first tip I had about what was going to happen was a question which was raised at the private middle school we were touring in early Feb of '20 by a rando medical prospective parent.

My kid's private elementary school wasn't as extensively staffed as those middle schools and were completely unaware of what was going to happen.  The only reason they had a plan in place was loudmouth me had demanded 3 weeks earlier a meeting with the principal and told her schools were likely going to be shut at least until the summer, and most likely until after Christmas of '20, and they needed to put a plan in place because they didn't have the resources of the large private middle schools.  Only my son's dentist gave me a more shocked look than that meeting.  To her credit, the principal took my hysterics seriously and jumped on it and they were ready to go by day 2 of the shutdown and were even open in the fall of '20, waiver in hand.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Like entropy.....but there are forces of nature that periodically do reverse it (like birth) temporarily back towards order even though the march is inexorable toward entropy
> 
> Well it does bring two thoughts to mind:
> 1. If we survive that long, one world government will eventually happen (though it may take a long long time and it may not be the Star Trek utopia people think it will be) and
> 2. We probably won't survive that long.


Entropy actually is better seen as a drift away from centralization.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> See Figure 5.


So they looked at 63 adults with long covid with mean age of 46?  The study didn't look at children and in fact says that that is a limitation of the study.  We all know children's Covid symptoms overwhelming tend to be much more mild than adults.  That's a big leap in logic to get long term risks to kids, particularly since were not seeing a lot of kids with long covid and brain fog is considered very rare.

I don't doubt there may be some long term impacts to children but this study is not compelling.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> So they looked at 63 adults with long covid with mean age of 46?  The study didn't look at children and in fact says that that is a limitation of the study.  We all know children's Covid symptoms overwhelming tend to be much more mild than adults.  That's a big leap in logic to get long term risks to kids, particularly since were not seeing a lot of kids with long covid and brain fog is considered very rare.


My friend and her husband are fully jabbed + boosters and both are super sick right now. She was talking to my wife and is crying in pain. I thought I had it bad but they are a big mess and I don't say that lightly. They were promised they wouldn't get this Covid shit if the obeyed. Hubby is not doing good. Thoughts and Prayers for Steph and Angel. Four kids at home and they have decided 100% NOT to jab their kiddos.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Please watch. 4 minutes








						Uninformed Consent Clip: Biopharmaceutical Propaganda "Safe and Effective"
					

It's my pleasure to announce the release of Uninformed Consent, a documentary by Canadian filmmaker, Todd Michael Harris. This film is an in depth look into the Covid-19 narrative, who's controlling i




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Guess which one is crush?  Dad4? Husker Du? Espola?


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> So they looked at 63 adults with long covid with mean age of 46?  The study didn't look at children and in fact says that that is a limitation of the study.  We all know children's Covid symptoms overwhelming tend to be much more mild than adults.  That's a big leap in logic to get long term risks to kids, particularly since were not seeing a lot of kids with long covid and brain fog is considered very rare.


There have been other adult studies as well that found the biggest correlation in adults with long covid is social anxiety disorder.  There seems to be mental component to this.

Now I'm not saying there isn't a physical one.  I myself suffered from semi-long COVID...it took 6 months for me to overcome the various secondary health problems that followed.  I also suffered in the last 2 years from long RSV, where I had a cough for 3 months.


Grace T. said:


> This ignores the trends that are going on in the rest of the world including Sri Lanka, Colombia, the Netherlands and Canada.  It goes beyond the USA.  The entire history of the 20th century can be summed up in one film: "Auntie Maime".  In Auntie Maime, many outsiders (single mothers, LGBTQ, Jewish people and other minorities, artists and actors, care free liberals) who consider themselves well-off and elite, resent that they've been excluded by the traditional Republican white shoe/big business upper class, who look down on them.  The struggle of the 20th century was these distinct well-off groups (for other examples, see the Cosby Show, Will & Grace, Modern Family) achieving recognition as part of the elite.  However, these elite left other groups (working class people of all races) outside the tent of respectability.  What's more is this new elite had a lot more in common with the old elite than they did with those outside the tent: a globalist vision-- one where borders are no longer as important, where trade is free, where nations cooperate to police the world, where capitalism protects the interest of the well-off but provides a moderate social safety net, and where certain social issues near and dear to them are prized, and where expertise is valued above all.  It's where the EU was born, and why the EU is drifting (now with the weight of Brexit thrown off) into ever greater unity (particularly now with the Russian threat).
> 
> But those outside the tent had a distinct feeling that they were normally being thrown under the bus (with rules such as with respect to COVID and climate change applying to them, but not their elitist betters) and were being looked down upon (the Obama guns and religion remarks).  So, there are two temptations for them to overthrow the world globalist elitist order: a) socialism: think Bernie bros or the socialist wave sweeping South America, under the idea that the previous models weren't true democratic socialist models, and b) populism (which is why they like Trump so much...not only does he fight back, but unlike DeSantis, Trump is loved because he's been treated like an outsider just like them).
> 
> I agree superfederalism in a very loose EU like confederation would fix this.  But there are two problems with that.  1. the EU itself (like most institutions) tends to drift to greater centralization and greater unity because the power holders like to amalgamate and enhance their rule, and 2. the globalists will never agree to it: there are too many changes they regard as existential whether climate change, abortion access, COVID rules, or their own social status, which this type of arrangement would overcome.  My worry is that we are headed to a lot more Sri Lankas, a lot more Canadas, and a lot more Netherlands.  It's actually kind of funny that it started in Canada: we see the globalist reaction that will happen and eventually it just fizzled (the Canadians are so nice of a people, after all).  I fear Sri Lanka is really just the first domino to fall, and given what's coming, we are going to see a lot more of it.


btw you can directly trace the Boris Johnson woes to this.  The uk Conservative party is a weird amalgam of business interests, old gentry, social conservatives and populist reformers.  But Johnson was swept to power on the backs of these populist reformers including in some very solid formerly socialist strongholds. He got brexit done, pushed out globalists like May and Burcow (who’s all but admitted he had a thumb on the scale to prevent brexit and has since joined labor) and set about doing economic reforms.  But then Covid hit and he supporters the lockdowns. Worse is he was hypocritical about it like our own d politicians and it turned out he held a Christmas party in Downing Street and then lied about it.

the Conservative party is now about to tear itself apart as the establishment and populist wings duke it out.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> So they looked at 63 adults with long covid with mean age of 46?  The study didn't look at children and in fact says that that is a limitation of the study.  We all know children's Covid symptoms overwhelming tend to be much more mild than adults.  That's a big leap in logic to get long term risks to kids, particularly since were not seeing a lot of kids with long covid and brain fog is considered very rare.
> 
> I don't doubt there may be some long term impacts to children but this study is not compelling.


Since they needed to  correlate with myelination directly it is necessarily a cadaver study.  Organ donors who died of other causes and at time of death were found to have infections that did not present with obvious repiratory symptoms. That sort of group. With that in place it is now possible to use the CSF cytokine signature to assess larger populations, cross-correlate with vaxx status, cross-correlate with age demographics.  The significance is that rather than going off vague symptoms descriptions like "brain fog" or "everything with kids is just milder because we already know that" it is now possible to look directly at what is going on in terms of neurological inflammation.  That will play out in different ways in different people, just like everything about the inflammatory aspects of Cov2.  And yes there is increasing concern about the pediatric population, much of which I know has come from online parent communities trying to push researchers.  That's why it is interesting to me and yet another unknown risk aspect of this virus.  If you don't see it that way, that's OK.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Since they needed to  correlate with myelination directly it is necessarily a cadaver study.  Organ donors who died of other causes and at time of death were found to have infections that did not present with obvious repiratory symptoms. That sort of group. With that in place it is now possible to use the CSF cytokine signature to assess larger populations, cross-correlate with vaxx status, cross-correlate with age demographics.  The significance is that rather than going off vague symptoms descriptions like "brain fog" or "everything with kids is just milder because we already know that" it is now possible to look directly at what is going on in terms of neurological inflammation.  That will play out in different ways in different people, just like everything about the inflammatory aspects of Cov2.  And yes there is increasing concern about the pediatric population, much of which I know has come from online parent communities trying to push researchers.  That's why it is interesting to me and yet another unknown risk aspect of this virus.  If you don't see it that way, that's OK.


I got called away and wanted to append this. To remember my manners and purpose. You assessed the paper for yourself and came to an informed opinion.  That's the way its supposed to work.  Thanks.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I got called away and wanted to append this. To remember my manners and purpose. You assessed the paper for yourself and came to an informed opinion.  That's the way its supposed to work.  Thanks.


Yeah, I'm a skeptic by nature and profession...the evidence has to be compelling to me.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yeah, I'm a skeptic by nature and profession...the evidence has to be compelling to me.


So something like a million dead does not compel you?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


Link please


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


You lost the thread. Very Bidenesque of you, again. You'd make a good VP candidate for him. All the puppeteers would still be doing the same job if Biden kicked the bucket - easy transition.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> You lost the thread. Very Bidenesque of you, again. You'd make a good VP candidate for him. All the puppeteers would still be doing the same job if Biden kicked the bucket - easy transition.


Watfly wishes to be a contrarian like Grace, but unlike Grace, he is not willing to do the hard work.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


Weird did they just update the death count for children?   I was under the impression the children deaths from Covid were a very small fraction of the overall deaths.  My bad.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Watfly wishes to be a contrarian like Grace, but unlike Grace, he is not willing to do the hard work.


You mean like answer questions with questions and make “straw man” comments?


----------



## crush

My message is csimple too: "No and never!!"  I know a 2022 that had to come home from college because this is being forced on girls who want to continue playing soccer. This is so crazy. I feel for all of you who will obey so you can pay to play. Any 2022s telling Big U a Big F U? Just curious and sorry for asking such personal questions. My other buddy told me his dd is already depressed and hates practices, her environment and all the pressure to obey politics from the coach in order to play and now wants to come back home to California.  On a side, my other buddy dd loves her school and is super happy so not all bad. I do hear more horrible stories then happy one, just being honest.


----------



## crush

Dr. Fraud is back in the news just in time for Mid Terms. Remember two weeks of lockdown and go back to normal 2 1/2 years ago? Get ready for another lockdown folks.  Their play book is a joke but so many of you follow them and take all the Jabs and boosters.  Let's see who obeys this time. 

*We Can’t Just “Put This Pandemic Behind Us”*


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


compel you to do what?  do something that doesn't work?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> compel you to do what?  do something that doesn't work?


The "doesn't work" denial of the last couple of years is why the number is over a million dead, and not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> The "doesn't work" denial of the last couple of years is why the number is over a million dead, and not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries.


You sound like Dad today, no?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> The "doesn't work" denial of the last couple of years is why the number is over a million dead, and not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries.


o.k., I'll bite.  Which are the more "rational countries"?  Because if you are talking deaths per capita and comparing to Europe or South America, we aren't doing very much worse than them.  Once you adjust for body mass average, we're right there with them (and there's some variation in this band depending on how deaths are counted by the individual country which account for the difference between say Croatia and France).  So it's not a million lives that were saved...you can argue may 100K, 200K, even 300K but it's not a million.  I'm dying to know once and for all what your opinion of a country that could have saved all or nearly all million.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> o.k., I'll bite.  Which are the more "rational countries"?  Because if you are talking deaths per capita and comparing to Europe or South America, we aren't doing very much worse than them.  Once you adjust for body mass average, we're right there with them.  So it's not a million lives that were saved...you can argue may 100K, 200K, even 300K but it's not a million.  I'm dying to know once and for all what your opinion of a country that could have saved all or nearly all million.


Straw man.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Straw man.


That's not a straw man dumb dumb.  I'm asking you what's the rational country you are pointing out that could have saved all or nearly all million lives, which is what you claimed.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> o.k., I'll bite.  Which are the more "rational countries"?  Because if you are talking deaths per capita and comparing to Europe or South America, we aren't doing very much worse than them.  Once you adjust for body mass average, we're right there with them (and there's some variation in this band depending on how deaths are counted by the individual country which account for the difference between say Croatia and France).  So it's not a million lives that were saved...you can argue may 100K, 200K, even 300K but it's not a million.  I'm dying to know once and for all what your opinion of a country that could have saved all or nearly all million.


Good bite. Ask him about the 100,000+ fentenyl deaths last year and the 150,000+ this year. 250,000 young people dead.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Straw man.


and you didn't answer the question.  what would have saved a million lives in this country from the effects of a novel virus? denying access to unhealthy food?  a miracle cure for diabetes, heart disease?  Not putting vulnerable elderly people at risk?  less politics?


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> The "doesn't work" denial of the last couple of years is why the number is over a million dead, and not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries.


babbling, clueless, and linear...as expected.  What rational country would you compare the US to?  let's see a sweet comparison .


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> babbling, clueless, and linear...as expected.  What rational country would you compare the US to?  let's see a sweet comparison .


Ask him how many Bots he's using on forum


----------



## Grace T.

Happened again said:


> and you didn't answer the question.  what would have saved a million lives in this country from the effects of a novel virus? denying access to unhealthy food?  a miracle cure for diabetes, heart disease?  Not putting vulnerable elderly people at risk?  less politics?


The there were 3 big differences which made the US experience somewhat worse in deaths per capita than Europe:

1. Limited vaccine uptake during the early delta and omicron waves.  It meant for a lot of people the virus remained novel while European nations with higher vaccine uptakes had less deaths in that time period.  With 80%+ of the population now infected, however, it's moot, and even in countries with very high vaccine uptake (like Australia) and/or natural infection (such as Peru), deaths continue.

2.  The higher U.S. obesity index since we know obese people tend to do worse with COVID than skinnier ones.  The lockdowns, however, seemed to be counter productive with this one.

3. The failure to gird nursing homes early on in the pandemic which led to waves of mass death early on until they fixed it.

That's really it, short of the countries that were functionally islands and managed to shut themselves off from one wave or another, or China.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> You sound like Dad today, no?


No, this is vintage E - lose the thread and go off on his talking point tangent that had nothing to do with what was being discussed.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> That's not a straw man dumb dumb.  I'm asking you what's the rational country you are pointing out that could have saved all or nearly all million lives, which is what you claimed.


I didn't say "all or nearly all".  That's your strawman.

But you knew that when you posted it, right?  It's your style.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That's not a straw man dumb dumb.  I'm asking you what's the rational country you are pointing out that could have saved all or nearly all million lives, which is what you claimed.


No way to have the discussion.

As soon as someone points to one of the East Asian democratic countries, you make your usual racial response (accuse the speaker of wanting everyone to be Asian), and the discussion dies.

Or you point out that the East Asian democracies are islands, and blame all our cases on the Mexican border.  This piece of non-logic has nothing behind it.  But, if someone points out that cross border traffic is much too small to account for our case rates, you go back to your favorite: the models are all flawed anyway.  (And therefore any attempt to use math to estimate scale will inherently fail.)

Been there.  Done that.  No point in having an intellectual discussion with someone who routinely dismisses the people who actually study the topic at hand.

You refer to them as "experts", with quotes.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> No way to have the discussion.
> 
> As soon as someone points to one of the East Asian democratic countries, you make your usual racial response (accuse the speaker of wanting everyone to be Asian), and the discussion dies.
> 
> Or you point out that the East Asian democracies are islands, and blame all our cases on the Mexican border.  This piece of non-logic has nothing behind it.  But, if someone points out that cross border traffic is much too small to account for our case rates, you go back to your favorite: the models are all flawed anyway.  (And therefore any attempt to use math to estimate scale will inherently fail.)
> 
> Been there.  Done that.  No point in having an intellectual discussion with someone who routinely dismisses the people who actually study the topic at hand.
> 
> You refer to them as "experts", with quotes.


Thank you.  You save me the trouble of responding to these "patriots".


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> No way to have the discussion.
> 
> As soon as someone points to one of the East Asian democratic countries, you make your usual racial response (accuse the speaker of wanting everyone to be Asian), and the discussion dies.
> 
> Or you point out that the East Asian democracies are islands, and blame all our cases on the Mexican border.  This piece of non-logic has nothing behind it.  But, if someone points out that cross border traffic is much too small to account for our case rates, you go back to your favorite: the models are all flawed anyway.  (And therefore any attempt to use math to estimate scale will inherently fail.)
> 
> Been there.  Done that.  No point in having an intellectual discussion with someone who routinely dismisses the people who actually study the topic at hand.
> 
> You refer to them as "experts", with quotes.


See @crush? This is @dad4.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Thank you.  You save me the trouble of responding to these "patriots".


If only you had thought of that before you lost the thread and responded in the first place you wouldn't need (your) dad to rescue you.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I didn't say "all or nearly all".  That's your strawman.
> 
> But you knew that when you posted it, right?  It's your style.


You were the one who said a million deaths.  I'm just holding you to it.  You wanna say you mispoke and concede that some portion of it was baked in, that's cool too.


dad4 said:


> No way to have the discussion.
> 
> As soon as someone points to one of the East Asian democratic countries, you make your usual racial response (accuse the speaker of wanting everyone to be Asian), and the discussion dies.
> 
> Or you point out that the East Asian democracies are islands, and blame all our cases on the Mexican border.  This piece of non-logic has nothing behind it.  But, if someone points out that cross border traffic is much too small to account for our case rates, you go back to your favorite: the models are all flawed anyway.  (And therefore any attempt to use math to estimate scale will inherently fail.)
> 
> Been there.  Done that.  No point in having an intellectual discussion with someone who routinely dismisses the people who actually study the topic at hand.
> 
> You refer to them as "experts", with quotes.


My pet theory (it's actually the ethical skeptics) is that the mainland Asian countries either: a) have a gene in place that helped with early COVID, or b) developed substantial cross immunity that helped limit the impact of the early strains (which has waned as the virus achieved immune escape).  You see that immunity having broken down, which is why China is in part clinging to the COVID zero policy...with their poor vaccines, they are having a relatively high death count relative to their low case loads....if they let it rip it would be disastrous considering all that novel lack of immunity floating around there.  See also South Korea for the counterfactual to the current China policy

Because the counter is the Philippines which lockdown very hard, had very robust masking, and shut down schools (it was the case study in the recent Economist piece) yet it didn't have the same success as the mainland Asian countries.  It's the same BTW the India, which also had very robust lockdowns and masking, yet somehow there's a flip as you approach a line in Myanmar over when and how badly waves hit.  You also BTW see it in Russia...where the Russian far east (despite zero masking and very low vaccine uptake throughout Russia and very low density) has somehow been hit less severely than the European part.

Again, no data on that because only the Japanese really deep dove this one, but 10 bucks says in 5 years my theory gets proven out.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> If only you had thought of that before you lost the thread and responded in the first place you wouldn't need (your) dad to rescue you.


Rescue?  I was writing up pretty much the same thing when I saw what he had posted.  Get back in ranks with the other loyal fools.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You were the one who said a million deaths.  I'm just holding you to it.  You wanna say you mispoke and concede that some portion of it was baked in, that's cool too.
> 
> 
> My pet theory (it's actually the ethical skeptics) is that the mainland Asian countries either: a) have a gene in place that helped with early COVID, or b) developed substantial cross immunity that helped limit the impact of the early strains (which has waned as the virus achieved immune escape).  You see that immunity having broken down, which is why China is in part clinging to the COVID zero policy...with their poor vaccines, they are having a relatively high death count relative to their low case loads....if they let it rip it would be disastrous considering all that novel lack of immunity floating around there.  See also South Korea for the counterfactual to the current China policy
> 
> Because the counter is the Philippines which lockdown very hard, had very robust masking, and shut down schools (it was the case study in the recent Economist piece) yet it didn't have the same success as the mainland Asian countries.  It's the same BTW the India, which also had very robust lockdowns and masking, yet somehow there's a flip as you approach a line in Myanmar over when and how badly waves hit.  You also BTW see it in Russia...where the Russian far east (despite zero masking and very low vaccine uptake throughout Russia and very low density) has somehow been hit less severely than the European part.
> 
> Again, no data on that because only the Japanese really deep dove this one, but 10 bucks says in 5 years my theory gets proven out.


I also posted "not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries", which I assume you saw since you responded to it in your own way.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You were the one who said a million deaths.  I'm just holding you to it.  You wanna say you mispoke and concede that some portion of it was baked in, that's cool too.
> 
> 
> My pet theory (it's actually the ethical skeptics) is that the mainland Asian countries either: a) have a gene in place that helped with early COVID, or b) developed substantial cross immunity that helped limit the impact of the early strains (which has waned as the virus achieved immune escape).  You see that immunity having broken down, which is why China is in part clinging to the COVID zero policy...with their poor vaccines, they are having a relatively high death count relative to their low case loads....if they let it rip it would be disastrous considering all that novel lack of immunity floating around there.  See also South Korea for the counterfactual to the current China policy
> 
> Because the counter is the Philippines which lockdown very hard, had very robust masking, and shut down schools (it was the case study in the recent Economist piece) yet it didn't have the same success as the mainland Asian countries.  It's the same BTW the India, which also had very robust lockdowns and masking, yet somehow there's a flip as you approach a line in Myanmar over when and how badly waves hit.  You also BTW see it in Russia...where the Russian far east (despite zero masking and very low vaccine uptake throughout Russia and very low density) has somehow been hit less severely than the European part.
> 
> Again, no data on that because only the Japanese really deep dove this one, but 10 bucks says in 5 years my theory gets proven out.


You mean, five years from now, Grace will claim that Grace was right the whole time.

Probably true.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> You were the one who said a million deaths.  I'm just holding you to it.  You wanna say you mispoke and concede that some portion of it was baked in, that's cool too.
> 
> 
> My pet theory (it's actually the ethical skeptics) is that the mainland Asian countries either: a) have a gene in place that helped with early COVID, or b) developed substantial cross immunity that helped limit the impact of the early strains (which has waned as the virus achieved immune escape).  You see that immunity having broken down, which is why China is in part clinging to the COVID zero policy...with their poor vaccines, they are having a relatively high death count relative to their low case loads....if they let it rip it would be disastrous considering all that novel lack of immunity floating around there.  See also South Korea for the counterfactual to the current China policy
> 
> Because the counter is the Philippines which lockdown very hard, had very robust masking, and shut down schools (it was the case study in the recent Economist piece) yet it didn't have the same success as the mainland Asian countries.  It's the same BTW the India, which also had very robust lockdowns and masking, yet somehow there's a flip as you approach a line in Myanmar over when and how badly waves hit.  You also BTW see it in Russia...where the Russian far east (despite zero masking and very low vaccine uptake throughout Russia and very low density) has somehow been hit less severely than the European part.  Vietnam went China lite.
> 
> Again, no data on that because only the Japanese really deep dove this one, but 10 bucks says in 5 years my theory gets proven out.


BTW, when pointing to Asia, you have to ask which policy.  South Korea's test and trace quickly broke down and was abandoned (remember when everyone was screaming test and trace...so stupid).  Japan was woefully unprepared for testing, but did do periodic lockdowns, but most importantly, rigorously sealed the border (except for notably the olympics).  Both countries, unlike China and Vietnam, tend to run germaphobic with masking and sick people taking special care not to infect others.  The Russian Far East, as I said, pretty much did nothing for most of the pandemic. Vietnam went China lite.  So did Singapore.



espola said:


> I also posted "not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries", which I assume you saw since you responded to it in your own way.


The line you posted as "something like a million deaths doesn't compel you".  If you are willing to concede that all million wouldn't have been saved (short of a China policy, which you presumably disavow....or do you), we cool


dad4 said:


> You mean, five years from now, Grace will claim that Grace was right the whole time.
> 
> Probably true.


Says the person who has been repeatedly wrong about everything.  Again: stand by my track record: COVID wave coming, school shutdowns, the IFR, what the BLM protests would do, the election, what the vaccine would do, Jan 6, how Biden would perform, stagflation, Ukrainian war...the only thing you can really point to in my track record that I'm severely wrong about was I was sure the Ukrainians were done for and the Russians would be more robust in trying to stop the West.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> See @crush? This is @dad4.


Where is the Husker Bot?


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Says the person who has been repeatedly wrong about everything.  Again: stand by my track record: COVID wave coming, school shutdowns, the IFR, what the BLM protests would do, the election, what the vaccine would do, Jan 6, how Biden would perform, stagflation, Ukrainian war...the only thing you can really point to in my track record that I'm severely wrong about was I was sure the Ukrainians were done for and the Russians would be more robust in trying to stop the West.


Which BTW, is the one subject that I probably most closely qualify as an expert in, having studied the area in college, speaking the language, and having spent extensive time there....ha!....more fuel for my pet theory that part of the problem with so called experts is they are too close to the subject matter and therefore struggle with forest through the trees thinking.


----------



## Happened again

Grace T. said:


> The there were 3 big differences which made the US experience somewhat worse in deaths per capita than Europe:
> 
> 1. Limited vaccine uptake during the early delta and omicron waves.  It meant for a lot of people the virus remained novel while European nations with higher vaccine uptakes had less deaths in that time period.  With 80%+ of the population now infected, however, it's moot, and even in countries with very high vaccine uptake (like Australia) and/or natural infection (such as Peru), deaths continue.
> 
> 2.  The higher U.S. obesity index since we know obese people tend to do worse with COVID than skinnier ones.  The lockdowns, however, seemed to be counter productive with this one.
> 
> 3. The failure to gird nursing homes early on in the pandemic which led to waves of mass death early on until they fixed it.
> 
> That's really it, short of the countries that were functionally islands and managed to shut themselves off from one wave or another, or China.


see, now if only E and H would provide such answers.  muchas gracias..


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Rescue?  I was writing up pretty much the same thing when I saw what he had posted.  Get back in ranks with the other loyal fools.


Hahaha! There's no point in being a little lost when you can be completely f'ing lost! I am sure dad is proud.


----------



## watfly

My gig is the kids.  From a Covid deaths perspective for kids how'd we stack up against other countries?  I'd imagine great since its just rare for a kid to die from Covid regardless of where they live.

How'd we do compared to other countries when it comes to interrupting education and development?  I'd imagine shitty based on all the reports of falling behind in education and the mental health issues.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> My gig is the kids.  From a Covid deaths perspective for kids how'd we stack up against other countries?  I'd imagine great since its just rare for a kid to die from Covid regardless of where they live.
> 
> How'd we do compared to other countries when it comes to interrupting education and development?  I'd imagine shitty based on all the reports of falling behind in education and the mental health issues.


Charter or home school is the only option unless you have an amazing school district, which is not easy to find. I told you once, twice and three times the lady about my buddy who is big time, in a big time school district. He is my best pal Bruno, who is black and never going back to admin. Stud leader in the community. He got out of admin because he said he would have had to sell his soul bro and his morals. His words not mine. He is a God fearing man and he could not play, "pay to play" at the highest level with his conscious. They wanted him to preach kneeling for their cause as well and he told them all to buzz off. He took another position and just teaches and not play politics. He's the one who is starting to look at a very nice "Neighborhood Home School" ((NHS)) curriculum business. He will be CEO.  I might help with marketing. My other teaching pal is still on blood thinner from blood clots. He still takes the boosters because he has to to keep his job he says. Great guy. I love him so much but he wants to retire in four years so he obeys. BTW, he home schools his three kids for obvious reasons.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You were the one who said a million deaths.  I'm just holding you to it.  You wanna say you mispoke and concede that some portion of it was baked in, that's cool too.
> 
> 
> My pet theory (it's actually the ethical skeptics) is that the mainland Asian countries either: a) have a gene in place that helped with early COVID, or b) developed substantial cross immunity that helped limit the impact of the early strains (which has waned as the virus achieved immune escape).  You see that immunity having broken down, which is why China is in part clinging to the COVID zero policy...with their poor vaccines, they are having a relatively high death count relative to their low case loads....if they let it rip it would be disastrous considering all that novel lack of immunity floating around there.  See also South Korea for the counterfactual to the current China policy
> 
> Because the counter is the Philippines which lockdown very hard, had very robust masking, and shut down schools (it was the case study in the recent Economist piece) yet it didn't have the same success as the mainland Asian countries.  It's the same BTW the India, which also had very robust lockdowns and masking, yet somehow there's a flip as you approach a line in Myanmar over when and how badly waves hit.  You also BTW see it in Russia...where the Russian far east (despite zero masking and very low vaccine uptake throughout Russia and very low density) has somehow been hit less severely than the European part.
> 
> Again, no data on that because only the Japanese really deep dove this one, but 10 bucks says in 5 years my theory gets proven out.


When you say India had a "robust lockdown", how do you twist your narrative to include the BJP rallies and reopening for religious pilgrimages?   ( The rallies and opening for religious holidays were both just before their Delta wave. )

Most people would consider tens of millions of people travelling to holy sites to be an example of "not locked down".   But to you, it counts as a "robust lockdown".  

Perhaps I should visit New Orleans for their Fat Tuesday Lockdown next year.  I hear it's a lot of fun.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Perhaps I should visit New Orleans for their Fat Tuesday Lockdown next year.  I hear it's a lot of fun.


Perhaps you should admit your were dead wrong, as are the other Bots you use.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> The "doesn't work" denial of the last couple of years is why the number is over a million dead, and not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries.


Cue the “yeah but those countries are different” rhetoric


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Cue the “yeah but those countries are different” rhetoric


Ya, but those countries are not controlled by liars, cheaters and losers. You got to do better Bot. Nice try though.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> If only you had thought of that before you lost the thread and responded in the first place you wouldn't need (your) dad to rescue you.


Your inability to follow along is highlighted by your then attempt to blame others for such.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> I also posted "not in line with the proportion one would expect from looking at the results of more rational countries", which I assume you saw since you responded to it in your own way.


Lioness eyes?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your inability to follow along is highlighted by your then attempt to blame others for such.


Yeah, I can't follow along. That's it. No one here is surprised that you two have the same comprehension issue.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Cue the “yeah but those countries are different” rhetoric


how are those countries similar?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> When you say India had a "robust lockdown", how do you twist your narrative to include the BJP rallies and reopening for religious pilgrimages?   ( The rallies and opening for religious holidays were both just before their Delta wave. )
> 
> Most people would consider tens of millions of people travelling to holy sites to be an example of "not locked down".   But to you, it counts as a "robust lockdown".
> 
> Perhaps I should visit New Orleans for their Fat Tuesday Lockdown next year.  I hear it's a lot of fun.


How is that any different than what Europe did by easing their lockdowns in the summer of 2020 or Japan did by opening up for the Olympics (which they then proceeded to promptly close the borders after)?  

or let’s take your favorite topic of masks.  Spain had a medical grade mask requirement and robust testing yet did worse on a per capita basis than did Japan which continued to allow cloth masks and had lousy testing. And both pales in comparison to Peru which had rigorous long lasting lockdowns and masks yet somehow ended up worst in the world. Blows the mind…doesn’t it????


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> My gig is the kids.  From a Covid deaths perspective for kids how'd we stack up against other countries?


Sounds like you’re right.  Age stratification means, to date, little impact for kids. ‘U-littles’ in Soccer parlance.



watfly said:


> How'd we do compared to other countries when it comes to interrupting education and development?  I'd imagine shitty based on all the reports of falling behind in education and the mental health issues.


Mixed bag… dad4 would say more orphans. He’d be right.

ETOL would blame it on bad parenting.

Crush would call out liars and cheaters/jabs.

espola would ask a question that was not really a question?

Everyone else would reflect on their personal experience and say…That’s not how I expected things to go but we managed.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your inability to follow along is highlighted by your then attempt to blame others for such.


“Not all who wonder are Lost”

In this case, that might not be true.


----------



## N00B

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I got called away and wanted to append this. To remember my manners and purpose. You assessed the paper for yourself and came to an informed opinion.  That's the way its supposed to work.  Thanks.


Best post for some time in this forum to actually encourage analysis and discussion!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Sounds like you’re right.  Age stratification means, to date, little impact for kids. ‘U-littles’ in Soccer parlance.
> 
> 
> 
> Mixed bag… dad4 would say more orphans. He’d be right.
> 
> ETOL would blame it on bad parenting.
> 
> Crush would call out liars and cheaters/jabs.
> 
> espola would ask a question that was not really a question?
> 
> Everyone else would reflect on their personal experience and say…That’s not how I expected things to go but we managed.


Ha, well done.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> Mixed bag… dad4 would say more orphans. He’d be right.


He’d be mostly wrong and guilty of a gross exaggeration:
a. Covid has always been a disease mostly dangerous to the over 60 crowd which is by far where most of the deaths have occurred. Unless the over 60s we’re doing a trump and having kids later in life, it’s not a very common scenario.
b. Youve got to do a time analysis too. Pre vaccine availability and pre omicron, the disease was much more dangerous to the under 60 crowd.  The ifr has radically declined with time so the concern is for a very limited time period covering mostly March 2020-March 2021
c. If we had really cared about making sure kids weren’t orphaned we wouldn’t have forced the essential workers to work during this time period. But we not only kept the markets, medical facilities and pharmacies open, we also had restaurant take out (which dad4 so famously tried to get once a week), bike shops, liquor and pot stores, plumbers and ac people (going into peoples homes), box stores, and bike shops. Yet somehow the teachers weren’t essential.  And these people were forced to work so the laptop class like dad and I could hide out in our pjs.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> How is that any different than what Europe did by easing their lockdowns in the summer of 2020 or Japan did by opening up for the Olympics (which they then proceeded to promptly close the borders after)?
> 
> or let’s take your favorite topic of masks.  Spain had a medical grade mask requirement and robust testing yet did worse on a per capita basis than did Japan which continued to allow cloth masks and had lousy testing. And both pales in comparison to Peru which had rigorous long lasting lockdowns and masks yet somehow ended up worst in the world. Blows the mind…doesn’t it????


That’s what I mean about the discussion going nowhere:

1- You make a claim about India.  

2- I point out that your India claim is horse shit.

3- You change the subject to talk about Spain and Peru.

No exchange of ideas at all.  Useless.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That’s what I mean about the discussion going nowhere:
> 
> 1- You make a claim about India.
> 
> 2- I point out that your India claim is horse shit.
> 
> 3- You change the subject to talk about Spain and Peru.
> 
> No exchange of ideas at all.  Useless.


Your claim about India was the lockdowns weren’t robust because they let the religious ceremonies go pre delta. I just pointed out by that measure neither Europe nor Japan had robust lockdowns either. It gives us a secret peak into your mentality (which is what you always dance around): we all know your preferred solution has always been australia/nz. I suspect China was too far for you but you would have been more ok with China than what the us did and perfectly happy with the China lite that Vietnam and Singapore implemented. But you’ll dance around it…speaking of useless conversations….because you always prefer to preach rather than to say what constructive solutions you would have preferred…especially (which was the original point) that asias policies were all over the place yet mainland Asia and Japan all got to similar places but India and the Philippines did not


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> That’s what I mean about the discussion going nowhere:
> 
> 1- You make a claim about India.
> 
> 2- I point out that your India claim is horse shit.
> 
> 3- You change the subject to talk about Spain and Peru.
> 
> No exchange of ideas at all.  Useless.


That is Espola speak right there. I need you guys here tomorrow. I want all you Bots at 7am ready to go.  All at the same time.


----------



## crush

I have to go to sleep now and get rest for tomorrow's big day. I love you all and thank you again for all the likes, laughs and my many kind PMs and text from my supporters. No one is threatening me anymore, which makes me feel loved and not hated by the top Elites. I know many of us wanted what they have but let me tell you something; they don;t got shit anymore, trust me!!!


----------



## Grace T.

here’s another tid bit since we are relitigating the past. Birxs book confirms the atlas book that the ideas for lockdowns originated with Birx. The inspiration came from what happened in China. Birx persuaded Trump using the precautionary principle to shut down for the 15 days but: a. She knew from the get go it was going to be more than 15 days, and b. She set about using those 15 days to build a case for an extension. In other words, they lied to the public (and trump) over exactly how long it would be and did it deliberately as a political tactic.


----------



## crush

From Mr. F
_One of the things that's clear from the data [is] that even though vaccines - because of the high degree of transmissibility of this virus - don't protect overly well, as it were, against infection, they protect quite well against severe disease leading to __hospitalization and death__. And I believe that's the reason, Neil, why at my age, being vaccinated and boosted, even though it didn't protect me against infection, I feel confident that it made a major role in protecting me from progressing to severe disease. And that's very likely why I had a relatively mild course. So my message to people who seem confused because people who are __vaccinated get infected__ - the answer is if you weren't vaccinated, the likelihood [is] you would have had [a] more severe course than you did have when you were vaccinated. _


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


If by million you mean "over a million excess deaths associated with C19" than, yes, according to the CDC we crossed that grim milestone in Feb of this year.  So the CDC agrees with you.  The second link is to the John Hopkins site for C19 mortality per 100K by country. The data for the US and western Europe is probably meaningfully comparable.  The data for other countries, more hit and miss. India's data, in particular, is pure bullshit. Delta pounded them hard and the orphan index alone says they are either not collecting the data or not representing it truthfully.






						Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19
					

Figures present excess deaths associated with COVID-19 at the national and state levels.




					www.cdc.gov
				











						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

N00B said:


> Best post for some time in this forum to actually encourage analysis and discussion!


I appreciate the sentiment.  It is kind of you to say. But I am not sure I agree with it.  The thread generally cycles.  And as with everything these days, the topic reflects politicization/overtly external manipulation to form diametric sides, teams, what have you, that generally hope to defeat each other and claim some sort of pyrrhic victory. "I was right about the comet". I come to gauge that and so feel as a participant I should try to contribute maybe something that at least I feel is meaningful, since I hear some of the scientific stuff filtering through the grapevine ahead of time.  And if people engage with it honestly that is all one can ask for.


----------



## crush

*NASA's new telescope expands probability of intelligent life in space, expert says: 'They're out there' *

Yes, they're out there NASA. Gee, I wonder who these Aliens could be?


----------



## crush

My coffee is so strong this morning. However, I will be leaving to work from the beach today and won't be doing any meme's and will be in a bad area for internet so Bot Boy can take over.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Yet somehow the teachers weren’t essential.


3 parts politics, 1 part irrational fear. 

It's insane what we did based upon politics and fear in the name of "health" policy, particularly to kids.









						City Fills Skatepark With 37 Tons of Sand to Keep Kids and Parents Away amid Coronavirus
					

Skaters and parents in the area were reportedly ignoring no-trespassing signs.




					people.com
				












						Former police officer arrested in park for throwing ball with daughter due to coronavirus social distancing rules
					

The police department has apologized for the arrest, calling it an "overreach."




					abcnews.go.com
				












						Malibu paddle boarder arrested
					

Paddle boarder arrested for violating beaches-closed order amid coronavirus outbreak




					www.kron4.com
				












						Pritzker's order limits 2 per boat. So why are some with more allowed on Lake Decatur? We found out.
					

The city of Decatur announced this week a “slight variance” to the state order.




					herald-review.com
				












						Out-of-towners who went to 7-Eleven for 'essential drinks' are fined $1,000 each
					

Seven Fremont residents were ticketed after driving more than 40 miles to a 7-Eleven in Santa Cruz, police said.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> 3 parts politics, 1 part irrational fear.
> 
> It's insane what we did based upon politics and fear in the name of "health" policy, particularly to kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City Fills Skatepark With 37 Tons of Sand to Keep Kids and Parents Away amid Coronavirus
> 
> 
> Skaters and parents in the area were reportedly ignoring no-trespassing signs.
> 
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> people.com
> 
> 
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> Former police officer arrested in park for throwing ball with daughter due to coronavirus social distancing rules
> 
> 
> The police department has apologized for the arrest, calling it an "overreach."
> 
> 
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> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Malibu paddle boarder arrested
> 
> 
> Paddle boarder arrested for violating beaches-closed order amid coronavirus outbreak
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> 
> www.kron4.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pritzker's order limits 2 per boat. So why are some with more allowed on Lake Decatur? We found out.
> 
> 
> The city of Decatur announced this week a “slight variance” to the state order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> herald-review.com
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Out-of-towners who went to 7-Eleven for 'essential drinks' are fined $1,000 each
> 
> 
> Seven Fremont residents were ticketed after driving more than 40 miles to a 7-Eleven in Santa Cruz, police said.
> 
> 
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> 
> www.latimes.com
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> View attachment 14264
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> View attachment 14263


Fear is their weapon and many fell for the fear tactics. I did not. My dd and I were kicking a soccer ball together two years ago in Aliso Viejo and some OC Parks guy with his lights flashing pulled over and yelled at us to get off the f&%$ing grass and get our asses home. I laughed at him and then he warned me: "If you don;t leave, I will call the Sherriff." No joke.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Fear is their weapon and many fell for the fear tactics. I did not. My dd and I were kicking a soccer ball together two years ago in Aliso Viejo and some OC Parks guy with his lights flashing pulled over and yelled at us to get off the f&%$ing grass and get our asses home. I laughed at him and then he warned me: "If you don;t leave, I will call the Sherriff." No joke.


Yeah my son and I were kicked off the beach for fishing when the beach was reopened but had to be participating in an active activity.  Apparently fishing wasn't active enough.  Sitting on the beach was prohibited.  You could only walk one way on the boardwalk and then the other way on the sand.  You can't make this shit up.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> 3 parts politics, 1 part irrational fear.
> 
> It's insane what we did based upon politics and fear in the name of "health" policy, particularly to kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City Fills Skatepark With 37 Tons of Sand to Keep Kids and Parents Away amid Coronavirus
> 
> 
> Skaters and parents in the area were reportedly ignoring no-trespassing signs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former police officer arrested in park for throwing ball with daughter due to coronavirus social distancing rules
> 
> 
> The police department has apologized for the arrest, calling it an "overreach."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Malibu paddle boarder arrested
> 
> 
> Paddle boarder arrested for violating beaches-closed order amid coronavirus outbreak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kron4.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pritzker's order limits 2 per boat. So why are some with more allowed on Lake Decatur? We found out.
> 
> 
> The city of Decatur announced this week a “slight variance” to the state order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> herald-review.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out-of-towners who went to 7-Eleven for 'essential drinks' are fined $1,000 each
> 
> 
> Seven Fremont residents were ticketed after driving more than 40 miles to a 7-Eleven in Santa Cruz, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
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> View attachment 14264
> 
> View attachment 14263


Your skatepark article was from April 17, 2020.  Even then it was national news.  

The problem isn‘t that we closed things in April, 2020.    It’s that we were so stupid about what to open up.  

And by stupid, I don’t mean “we failed to listen to sports dads who told us it was overblown.”.   The basketball parents sounded exactly the same as the soccer parents.  And they were absolutely wrong about the risk posed by indoor basketball.  As you know, covid transmits quite well in a basketball gym full of cheering fans.

By stupid, I mean we had good evidence that outdoors was safe, but it took us far too long to make use of if.   We also had very good evidence that gyms, bars, and indoor restaurants were not safe, yet those were the first things we opened.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Yeah my son and I were kicked off the beach for fishing when the beach was reopened but had to be participating in an active activity.  Apparently fishing wasn't active enough.  Sitting on the beach was prohibited.  You could only walk one way on the boardwalk and then the other way on the sand.  You can't make this shit up.


I agree you really can't make this up because NO ONE is their right mind would plan this out. Now watch them try it again.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your skatepark article was from April 17, 2020.  Even then it was national news.
> 
> The problem isn‘t that we closed things in April, 2020.    It’s that we were so stupid about what to open up.
> 
> And by stupid, I don’t mean “we failed to listen to sports dads who told us it was overblown.”.   The basketball parents sounded exactly the same as the soccer parents.  And they were absolutely wrong about the risk posed by indoor basketball.  As you know, covid transmits quite well in a basketball gym full of cheering fans.
> 
> By stupid, I mean we had good evidence that outdoors was safe, but it took us far too long to make use of if.   We also had very good evidence that gyms, bars, and indoor restaurants were not safe, yet those were the first things we opened.


They also represent a very small portion of the transmissions.  I agree that during 20 the best thing we could have done was move everything outside (and improve filtration in classrooms, which wasn't always done and a lot of the money they were just sitting on).  Los Angeles did that and still had the results it did.  

But a. the indoor basketball game was much more problematic than an indoor restaurant at half capacity by virtue of the fact with all the screaming and running the indoor basketball game could very well represent a superspreader event.  and 
b. The bigger problems in the restaurants wasn't just the indoor dining....it was the take out....having all those McDonalds workers, for example, work in cramp indoor conditions side by side with poor ventilation was guaranteed to keep transmissions going and just shuffled the risk from people like you (getting your once weekly take out) to people like them (who brought it home to their relatives in their cramped apartments).  Same with the other essential workers where work was just so much more problematic...and we know the apartment buildings themselves now were also an issue. and 
c. you still had the big collapse in faith in public health when they were doing all this restriction outdoors (and the outdoor restrictions were still in place into the summer of 2020 in California) but then the public health official turned around and said but BLM protests were o.k., ignoring the fact that outdoor transmission was still possible if people hang out for long period of time together and people being social creatures would then hang around together either by carpooling (gotta save the environment after all, not to mention parking problems) or gathering after.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Your skatepark article was from April 17, 2020.  Even then it was national news.
> 
> The problem isn‘t that we closed things in April, 2020.    It’s that we were so stupid about what to open up.
> 
> And by stupid, I don’t mean “we failed to listen to sports dads who told us it was overblown.”.   The basketball parents sounded exactly the same as the soccer parents.  And they were absolutely wrong about the risk posed by indoor basketball.  As you know, covid transmits quite well in a basketball gym full of cheering fans.
> 
> By stupid, I mean we had good evidence that outdoors was safe, but it took us far too long to make use of if.   We also had very good evidence that gyms, bars, and indoor restaurants were not safe, yet those were the first things we opened.


Agree, but you had idiot "experts" that tried to be relevant and made claims like this:









						UC San Diego virus expert pleads with surfers to stay out of the ocean to avoid coronavirus
					

Kim Prather says coastal breezes likely carry coronavirus further than 6 feet




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				












						Landmark case study finds coronavirus easily transmitted in ideal outdoor conditions
					





					www.utsa.edu


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Yeah my son and I were kicked off the beach for fishing when the beach was reopened but had to be participating in an active activity.  Apparently fishing wasn't active enough.  Sitting on the beach was prohibited.  You could only walk one way on the boardwalk and then the other way on the sand.  You can't make this shit up.


Yeah closing the oceans, bays, lakes and the parking lots (pretty much all outdoor activity) was pretty stupid. In Australia they kept the ocean open but closed the beach itself which was semi-reasonable. Again though, they erred on the side of safety. Either way it went there would be faults, it’s human nature.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Agree, but you had idiot "experts" that tried to be relevant and made claims like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UC San Diego virus expert pleads with surfers to stay out of the ocean to avoid coronavirus
> 
> 
> Kim Prather says coastal breezes likely carry coronavirus further than 6 feet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sandiegouniontribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Landmark case study finds coronavirus easily transmitted in ideal outdoor conditions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.utsa.edu


Your article was from March 31, 2020.  That‘s still within the 15 days you were complaining about.  Cases were doubling every 3 days back then.  We didn’t really have time to find the minimal intervention.  The question is why didn’t we get going on opening oudoor spaces soon after.

The research paper in the second article sounds fine.  It’s a computer simulation trying to estimate what kinds of outdoor conditions are better or worse for spread of viral particles.  That’s one step towards figuring out to what extent a stadium in Italy is different from a beach in Malibu.  This is exactly what you want the academics to be doing.  If you want to open the safe things first, you need this kind of research.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Your article was from March 31, 2020.  That‘s still within the 15 days you were complaining about.  Cases were doubling every 3 days back then.  We didn’t really have time to find the minimal intervention.  The question is why didn’t we get going on opening oudoor spaces soon after.
> 
> The research paper in the second article sounds fine.  It’s a computer simulation trying to estimate what kinds of outdoor conditions are better or worse for spread of viral particles.  That’s one step towards figuring out to what extent a stadium in Italy is different from a beach in Malibu.  This is exactly what you want the academics to be doing.  If you want to open the safe things first, you need this kind of research.


Doesn't change the fact that these notions were in the heads of the health policy makers.  Further proof that expert opinion is just that (and not fact), and that we shouldn't rely on computer simulations for real world situations.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Doesn't change the fact that these notions were in the heads of the health policy makers.  Further proof that expert opinion is just that (and not fact), and that we shouldn't rely on computer simulations for real world situations.


You realize that your food is grown by people who rely very heavily on computer simulations for real world situations.

When a farmer decides whether to spray for pests, he doesn’t just guess.  He uses computer simulations to make that decision.  Will the current infestation keep growing?  Or will the hot weather knock it back anyway?  That’s a computer simulation question.  The only difference is that one pathogen hits corn and the other hits people.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You realize that your food is grown by people who rely very heavily on computer simulations for real world situations.
> 
> When a farmer decides whether to spray for pests, he doesn’t just guess.  He uses computer simulations to make that decision.  Will the current infestation keep growing?  Or will the hot weather knock it back anyway?  That’s a computer simulation question.  The only difference is that one pathogen hits corn and the other hits people.


Kinda like weather predictions, no?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You realize that your food is grown by people who rely very heavily on computer simulations for real world situations.
> 
> When a farmer decides whether to spray for pests, he doesn’t just guess.  He uses computer simulations to make that decision.  Will the current infestation keep growing?  Or will the hot weather knock it back anyway?  That’s a computer simulation question.  The only difference is that one pathogen hits corn and the other hits people.


Hate to burst your bubble but farmers rely on far more than computer simulations.  Computer simulations are only a tool and shouldn't be solely relied on, because they often are incorrect.  It also depends on the quality of the data and how much the simulation is filling in the blanks.  Better input can lead to better output, but computer simulations are inherently speculative for many reasons.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but farmers rely on far more than computer simulations.  Computer simulations are only a tool and shouldn't be solely relied on, because they often are incorrect.  It also depends on the quality of the data and how much the simulation is filling in the blanks.  Better input can lead to better output, but computer simulations are inherently speculative for many reasons.


Then there's also the personal biases, blind spots and politics which can distort everything.  The one disappointing thing about Birx's book is that it doesn't give a really good explanation as to why they abandoned the years of planning and suddenly panic.  They had planned for this situation for years but all that was tossed out the window.  The biggest post morten really needs to settle on studying that.

The track record for the experts and big unexpected surprises isn't good, particularly in the modern era.  Understanding how that happened probably requires a lot of introspection the ruling classes just aren't capable of, particularly in the current environment.  Just in this century:

-Hurricane Katrina and the response
-The Iraq war/WMB
-The 2008 bubble
-COVID and the response
-the current "transitory" inflation


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but farmers rely on far more than computer simulations.  Computer simulations are only a tool and shouldn't be solely relied on, because they often are incorrect.  It also depends on the quality of the data and how much the simulation is filling in the blanks.  Better input can lead to better output, but computer simulations are inherently speculative for many reasons.


Yes, agribusiness uses computer simulations, together with real world information, to predict disease growth and prevent serious outbreaks.

That is the same as public health agencies.  They also use a mix of computer simulations and real world data. 

It's not as simple as your claim that simulations are inherently inapplicable to real world situations.  People use computers to help predict the real world all the time.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yes, agribusiness uses computer simulations, together with real world information, to predict disease growth and prevent serious outbreaks.
> 
> That is the same as public health agencies.  They also use a mix of computer simulations and real world data.
> 
> It's not as simple as your claim that simulations are inherently inapplicable to real world situations.  People use computers to help predict the real world all the time.


Taking the weather analogy further, the models are actually pretty good and most of the time we come pretty close to predicting the weather overall.  However, we all know that sometimes the models just get it wrong.  It's gotten a lot better than our parents in the 70s (when the weather men would famously always duff it), but we've also been at it for a really really long time, and in comparison to a virus or the economy, with multiple variables involved such as how skittish humans react, it's a lot more simple.

The critique of the models is that they should only be a tool, and you can't rely upon them to make decisions alone.  They are the starting point, not the end, for critical thought.  And there is no disputing that there have been many incidents now where they've gotten it spectacularly wrong.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Taking the weather analogy further, the models are actually pretty good and most of the time we come pretty close to predicting the weather overall.  However, we all know that sometimes the models just get it wrong.  It's gotten a lot better than our parents in the 70s (when the weather men would famously always duff it), but we've also been at it for a really really long time, and in comparison to a virus or the economy, with multiple variables involved such as how skittish humans react, it's a lot more simple.
> 
> The critique of the models is that they should only be a tool, and you can't rely upon them to make decisions alone.  They are the starting point, not the end, for critical thought.  And there is no disputing that there have been many incidents now where they've gotten it spectacularly wrong.


And, like the weather, the 2 week epidemiology models are a whole lot better than the 6 month ones.

Which makes it really odd to criticize the decision to do a shutdown based on March 2020 models.  The predicted problem wasn’t 6 months out in the future.  If we kept doubling every 3 days, we were going to run out of ventilators and PPE in a matter of weeks.  We were well within the range where the models are quite accurate.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> And, like the weather, the 2 week epidemiology models are a whole lot better than the 6 month ones.
> 
> Which makes it really odd to criticize the decision to do a shutdown based on March 2020 models.  The predicted problem wasn’t 6 months out in the future.  If we kept doubling every 3 days, we were going to run out of ventilators and PPE in a matter of weeks.  We were well within the range where the models are quite accurate.


But again, you don't know what you don't know...the ventilators turned out to be counterproductive and within 6 months the medical community had radically shifted their use from them

Further, it was ridiculous to apply a country wide model to a nation like the US.  New York should have probably been shut down way before they did it.  There was no point in shutting down Iowa during that particular time period.  The models were behind the time in New York, and inapplicable to Iowa.  The only thing that happened as a result was that the administration burned its lockdown bullet in one blow (both social and economically) in places that didn't need to be locked down instead of targeting it for when surges inevitably happened (which if the short models were accurate, they should have been able to predict weeks ahead of time).  Then BLM hit and that torched any further chance for using a targeted approach (which BTW is what China is doing now, way too late and with a virus which spreads rampantly through apartment buildings).

Again, taking the weather model: they work pretty good in a place like SoCal...they work pretty badly in a place with all the micro climates like Hawaii.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but farmers rely on far more than computer simulations.  Computer simulations are only a tool and shouldn't be solely relied on, because they often are incorrect.  It also depends on the quality of the data and how much the simulation is filling in the blanks.  Better input can lead to better output, but computer simulations are inherently speculative for many reasons.


Not this farmer. He makes fake meat and fake food for your brain that is being destroyed.


----------



## watfly

Predicative models are based on assumptions determined by the modeler.   We all know what happens when you "ass u me".  I use computer predicative models in my work (albeit fairly simple models compared to scientific models) using great data and at best my response to those predictions is "huh, that's interesting".  At best your prediction is a possibility with an uncertain probability.  Predicative models should never be used for conclusions and only as a tool along with other information.

The problem with Covid was that experts speculated and  jumped to conclusions.  Conclusions that in some cases were a contradiction to long held medical findings.   Compounding the problem was the fact that few experts issued "mea culpas" for their inaccurate opinions.  Even if they did, that bell had already been rung.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> But again, you don't know what you don't know...the ventilators turned out to be counterproductive and within 6 months the medical community had radically shifted their use from them
> 
> Further, it was ridiculous to apply a country wide model to a nation like the US.  New York should have probably been shut down way before they did it.  There was no point in shutting down Iowa during that particular time period.  The models were behind the time in New York, and inapplicable to Iowa.  The only thing that happened as a result was that the administration burned its lockdown bullet in one blow (both social and economically) in places that didn't need to be locked down instead of targeting it for when surges inevitably happened (which if the short models were accurate, they should have been able to predict weeks ahead of time).  Then BLM hit and that torched any further chance for using a targeted approach (which BTW is what China is doing now, way too late and with a virus which spreads rampantly through apartment buildings).
> 
> Again, taking the weather model: they work pretty good in a place like SoCal...they work pretty badly in a place with all the micro climates like Hawaii.


Not sure where you get the idea that models don’t predict waves.  Pretty much every wave has come a few weeks after a subvariant begins to show exponential growth.  Ever since they started sequencing sewage specimens, we’ve had a few weeks warning before anything hits.  It doesn’t tell you peak height, but it does tell you timing.

We saw it with Beta.  That “huge hurricane off the coast.”.   Osterholm had the timing right, and the size wrong.

In the case of April 2020, the timing data was bad enough.  We didn’t have enough PPE to manage current caseloads.  Letting it double for 3 more weeks would have been a huge problem.  You can argue whether the actual peak would have been 15% or 50% of population.  Well before we hit peak, the upswing itself was going to cause trouble.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Predicative models are based on assumptions determined by the modeler.   We all know what happens when you "ass u me".  I use computer predicative models in my work (albeit fairly simple models compared to scientific models) using great data and at best my response to those predictions is "huh, that's interesting".  At best your prediction is a possibility with an uncertain probability.  Predicative models should never be used for conclusions and only as a tool along with other information.
> 
> The problem with Covid was that experts speculated and  jumped to conclusions.  Conclusions that in some cases were a contradiction to long held medical findings.   Compounding the problem was the fact that few experts issued "mea culpas" for their inaccurate opinions.  Even if they did, that bell had already been rung.


Which “jump to conclusions”? 

The main argument was that, absent a change to behavior, cases were doubling every 3 days.   That was empirical, not speculative.  You can plot it on log paper and see the point where we would have exceeded hospital capacity.  It wasn’t very far out.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> But again, you don't know what you don't know...the ventilators turned out to be counterproductive and within 6 months the medical community had radically shifted their use from them
> 
> Further, it was ridiculous to apply a country wide model to a nation like the US.  New York should have probably been shut down way before they did it.  There was no point in shutting down Iowa during that particular time period.  The models were behind the time in New York, and inapplicable to Iowa.  The only thing that happened as a result was that the administration burned its lockdown bullet in one blow (both social and economically) in places that didn't need to be locked down instead of targeting it for when surges inevitably happened (which if the short models were accurate, they should have been able to predict weeks ahead of time).  Then BLM hit and that torched any further chance for using a targeted approach (which BTW is what China is doing now, way too late and with a virus which spreads rampantly through apartment buildings).
> 
> Again, taking the weather model: they work pretty good in a place like SoCal...they work pretty badly in a place with all the micro climates like Hawaii.


Sometimes I wonder if weather predictions would be more accurate if meteorologists actually looked out the window instead of staring at their computer. 

In Utah the quip is if you don't like the weather just wait an hour.  (I'm sure other states say the same thing).  How hard is it to predict weather in San Diego.?  If you said Sunny and 75 you'd probably be accurate 50% if time.  SD has to have more TV weather people per weather event than any other city.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Which “jump to conclusions”?


Well certainly the outdoors issue that we are talking about.  But the worst is no doubt the claim that the vaccine will prevent you from getting Covid which led to vaccine mandate policies and resulted in people losing their jobs.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Which “jump to conclusions”?
> 
> The main argument was that, absent a change to behavior, cases were doubling every 3 days.   That was empirical, not speculative.  You can plot it on log paper and see the point where we would have exceeded hospital capacity.  It wasn’t very far out.


the modeling was innacurate (everyone trying to CYA), vents were not the correct treatement (known very early on). The virus was/is novel.  Early intervention as the grassroots wasn't encouraged.  Imagine treating someone early, increasing chances of not coming back to the hospital VS telling someone to go home and if/when they got really sic, come back.   It's kinda like medicining and doctoring was discouraged - everyone crossing their fingers that pharma would bail us out (ahh, the twinkle in big pharma's eyes).


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Sometimes I wonder if weather predictions would be more accurate if meteorologists actually looked out the window instead of staring at their computer.
> 
> In Utah the quip is if you don't like the weather just wait an hour.  (I'm sure other states say the same thing).  How hard is it to predict weather in San Diego.?  If you said Sunny and 75 you'd probably be accurate 50% if time.  SD has to have more TV weather people per weather event than any other city.


TV weather people don’t actually do any forecasting.  They are only there to look pretty when you’re done looking at the map.  

Which is why SD needs them.  You guys don’t need to actually look at the forecast, so it’s more important to have some eye candy to pass the time.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> TV weather people don’t actually do any forecasting.  They are only there to look pretty when you’re done looking at the map.
> 
> Which is why SD needs them.  You guys don’t need to actually look at the forecast, so it’s more important to have some eye candy to pass the time.


Good point.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> the modeling was innacurate (everyone trying to CYA), vents were not the correct treatement (known very early on). The virus was/is novel.  Early intervention as the grassroots wasn't encouraged.  Imagine treating someone early, increasing chances of not coming back to the hospital VS telling someone to go home and if/when they got really sic, come back.   It's kinda like medicining and doctoring was discouraged - everyone crossing their fingers that pharma would bail us out (ahh, the twinkle in big pharma's eyes).


Was the vent treatment really based on modeling or historical medical treatment for severe respiratory issues?  The initial fear that was greatly exaggerated was the fear that we wouldn't have enough vents (see Cuomo).  I certainly heard some horror stories from NY hospitals unnecessarily putting people on vents.  I hope that wasn't political.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not sure where you get the idea that models don’t predict waves.  Pretty much every wave has come a few weeks after a subvariant begins to show exponential growth.  Ever since they started sequencing sewage specimens, we’ve had a few weeks warning before anything hits.  It doesn’t tell you peak height, but it does tell you timing.
> 
> We saw it with Beta.  That “huge hurricane off the coast.”.   Osterholm had the timing right, and the size wrong.
> 
> In the case of April 2020, the timing data was bad enough.  We didn’t have enough PPE to manage current caseloads.  Letting it double for 3 more weeks would have been a huge problem.  You can argue whether the actual peak would have been 15% or 50% of population.  Well before we hit peak, the upswing itself was going to cause trouble.


You missed the point.  If the models were good enough to predict the waves in particular cities before they happened, you could have employed a targeted approach city by city instead of putting the entire country (including places which didn't have waves) in lockdown.  Because once you did it, you spent your bullet and you couldn't get there again (particularly after BLM).  It's also based on the assumption (which even the Chinese stubbornly are being forced to recognize) that you can't lock down in perpetuity.

The Australia/NZ/China/Vietnam experience v. the rest of the world is pretty illustrative.  The only thing that really worked by way of lockdowns were nearly complete and months long lockdowns like they did there.  Not the half lockdowns that the US did (weed stores, fast food, and construction open where employees were passing it back and forth to each other), and not the intense short burst lockdowns Europe did (it just pushed it back a few weeks).  So the debate in retrospect is really very simple: Were Australia/NZ/China/Vietnam right given the cost or not.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> You missed the point.  If the models were good enough to predict the waves in particular cities before they happened, you could have employed a targeted approach city by city instead of putting the entire country (including places which didn't have waves) in lockdown.  Because once you did it, you spent your bullet and you couldn't get there again (particularly after BLM).  It's also based on the assumption (which even the Chinese stubbornly are being forced to recognize) that you can't lock down in perpetuity.
> 
> The Australia/NZ/China/Vietnam experience v. the rest of the world is pretty illustrative.  The only thing that really worked by way of lockdowns were nearly complete and months long lockdowns like they did there.  Not the half lockdowns that the US did (weed stores, fast food, and construction open where employees were passing it back and forth to each other), and not the intense short burst lockdowns Europe did (it just pushed it back a few weeks).  So the debate in retrospect is really very simple: Were Australia/NZ/China/Vietnam right given the cost or not.


They've been trying to do exactly that.  We have sewage data that highlights which places are flaring up.  They had it down to treatment plant by treatment plant.   It is easy enough to use that to decide what rules are on/off.  

Trouble is, you can't turn rules on and off like a light switch.  People accuse you of flip flopping and think that every change proves that there is no reason for any of it.  You saw exactly that sentiment here.

In the end, one side effect of all the complaints is that policy got sticky.   The fight over whether to have rules trumped all other discussions- including the discussions about how to make the rules smarter.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> They've been trying to do exactly that.  We have sewage data that highlights which places are flaring up.  They had it down to treatment plant by treatment plant.   It is easy enough to use that to decide what rules are on/off.
> 
> Trouble is, you can't turn rules on and off like a light switch.  People accuse you of flip flopping and think that every change proves that there is no reason for any of it.  You saw exactly that sentiment here.
> 
> In the end, one side effect of all the complaints is that policy got sticky.   The fight over whether to have rules trumped all other discussions- including the discussions about how to make the rules smarter.


That wasn't the problem.  Be honest about it.  The problem was they burned their credibility.  First it was the mask thing, no mask.  Then it was the lockdowns for Iowa.  Then it was the outdoor stuff.  Then while the outdoor stuff was still going on you had the BLM (which ended any hope of a reasonable discussion once and for all because then people just saw it was politics).  You saw the same thing going forward after that with Fauci fudging his immune thresholds, the cloth masks, the vaccine mandates and handing over school policies to the teachers union.  They f up and every one of those f ups made getting to a sensible policy impossible.  A more reasonable approach would have been to have an honest discussion with the public about the tradeoffs, treat them like grownups, and then left the politics out of it.  

You see it in the LA County attempts to reinstall the mask mandate.  This time around, compliance won't be universal.  You'll have some places where it's hard (mostly affecting those without power like kids, or in doctor's offices/hospitals/govt buildings), some places of reluctant compliance with a whole bunch of incidents (mostly big corporations) and everywhere else compliance will be spotty.  The stupidity behind it is it's a cloth mask mandate, which we already know given the current infection rates, do nothing particularly for people working indoors with one another for long periods of time, and for which things like indoor dining will be exempting (making for meaningless things like indoor restaurants).  There's no point to it at this point, and it's yet another thing they'll torch their credibility with.


----------



## crush

Step right up and get your Jim Jones Kool Aid while supplies last.








						FDA authorizes Novavax COVID-19 vaccine for emergency use
					

Novavax's COVID-19 vaccine was granted emergency use authorization by the FDA on Wednesday, setting it up to be a fourth vaccine option for Americans.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> TV weather people don’t actually do any forecasting.  They are only there to look pretty when you’re done looking at the map.
> 
> Which is why SD needs them.  You guys don’t need to actually look at the forecast, so it’s more important to have some eye candy to pass the time.


Shawn Styles?


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Shawn Styles?


Raquel Tejada


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Here's a great example of how talking points "work" for those incapable of critical thinking.

First, we have @watfly responding to a study @EvilGoalie 21 posted. Here is where @watfly used compelling first - in reference to long-term impacts on children.



watfly said:


> So they looked at 63 adults with long covid with mean age of 46?  The study didn't look at children and in fact says that that is a limitation of the study.  We all know children's Covid symptoms overwhelming tend to be much more mild than adults.  That's a big leap in logic to get long term risks to kids, particularly since were not seeing a lot of kids with long covid and brain fog is considered very rare.
> 
> *I don't doubt there may be some long term impacts to children but this study is not compelling.*


@EvilGoalie 21 replies with some explanation of how he/she/they arrived at their interpretations and ends civilly with the following



EvilGoalie 21 said:


> ...  That's why it is interesting to me and yet another unknown risk aspect of this virus.  If you don't see it that way, that's OK.


and



EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I got called away and wanted to append this. To remember my manners and purpose. You assessed the paper for yourself and came to an informed opinion.  That's the way its supposed to work.  Thanks.


@watfly responds to @EvilGoalie 21.



watfly said:


> Yeah, I'm a skeptic by nature and profession...the evidence has to be compelling to me.


Anyone sincerely interested in what was going on would find it easy to see the use of compelling here was in the same context as it was above in bold. However, someone only interested in getting their talking points out might respond with as much thought as a dog when it sees a squirrel as we see below.



espola said:


> So something like a million dead does not compel you?


I point out E lost the thread



kickingandscreaming said:


> No, this is vintage E - lose the thread and go off on his talking point tangent that had nothing to do with what was being discussed.


Husker comes to his defense, stating that I wasn't following the thread. No surprise from the Borg Collective of Talking Point trolls.



Hüsker Dü said:


> Your inability to follow along is highlighted by your then attempt to blame others for such.


Pages of discussion follow based on someone spouting talking points that had nothing to do with the original point of contention. Even @EvilGoalie 21, one of the two involved in the initial discussion, appears to have lost the thread now. Interestingly, this is presented as a possible "defense" of E that, if true, actually indicates that E lost the thread. Strange.



EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If by million you mean "over a million excess deaths associated with C19" than, yes, according to the CDC we crossed that grim milestone in Feb of this year.  So the CDC agrees with you.


Morals of the story: When an argument you support isn't going well, change it to a talking point you feel can't be refuted. If a point you made was meaningless in context, create a new scenario where the point is meaningful - extra points if you can get "someone else" to do it for you.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Was the vent treatment really based on modeling or historical medical treatment for severe respiratory issues?  The initial fear that was greatly exaggerated was the fear that we wouldn't have enough vents (see Cuomo).  I certainly heard some horror stories from NY hospitals unnecessarily putting people on vents.  I hope that wasn't political.


plenty of nuance in regards to invasive/mechanical venting.  I will not dive into blood oxygen levels and the old dogma associated with it and vent needs.  Italy was the testing ground.  It became evident rather early that mech venting wasn't the best treatment and in fact simpler and more widely available devices was the better practice.  Based on their population, Italian docs/nurse/specialists had to do plenty of doctoring to take care of patients.  hats off to them - and many learned from their experience.  They did a great job of early intervention, treating immediate symptoms, and managing a very stretched care system.  They saved many lives (and many were lost, especially early, amongst the older population).   There really wasn't much they could have done differently given what they knew, did'nt know.  

But....much sexier and sensational here in the good ol us of a to talk abut vent shortages and what we could do about it...how cool was it to have the government trot out the DPA and save us from ourselves.   So yes, plenty of political influence in getting vents manufactured  when we knew that the trend in treatment was to not use mech vent machines.  Remember warrior king cuomo?  he was the ultimate vent advocate - without them NYC would have suffocated.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That wasn't the problem.  Be honest about it.  The problem was they burned their credibility.  First it was the mask thing, no mask.  Then it was the lockdowns for Iowa.  Then it was the outdoor stuff.  Then while the outdoor stuff was still going on you had the BLM (which ended any hope of a reasonable discussion once and for all because then people just saw it was politics).  You saw the same thing going forward after that with Fauci fudging his immune thresholds, the cloth masks, the vaccine mandates and handing over school policies to the teachers union.  They f up and every one of those f ups made getting to a sensible policy impossible.  A more reasonable approach would have been to have an honest discussion with the public about the tradeoffs, treat them like grownups, and then left the politics out of it.
> 
> You see it in the LA County attempts to reinstall the mask mandate.  This time around, compliance won't be universal.  You'll have some places where it's hard (mostly affecting those without power like kids, or in doctor's offices/hospitals/govt buildings), some places of reluctant compliance with a whole bunch of incidents (mostly big corporations) and everywhere else compliance will be spotty.  The stupidity behind it is it's a cloth mask mandate, which we already know given the current infection rates, do nothing particularly for people working indoors with one another for long periods of time, and for which things like indoor dining will be exempting (making for meaningless things like indoor restaurants).  There's no point to it at this point, and it's yet another thing they'll torch their credibility with.


Your response proves my point.

When the CDC tried to fix their mask rule, what did people do?  They immediately jumped on it as proof that the rules are all bad, and used the policy correction as an excuse to attack the agency's credibility.

Like you did above.

Having done that, what right do you have to ask for a flexible policy?   You by your own words helped create the exact conditions which cause public agencies to become inflexible.  No use complaining about it after you helped cause it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your response proves my point.
> 
> When the CDC tried to fix their mask rule, what did people do?  They immediately jumped on it as proof that the rules are all bad, and used the policy correction as an excuse to attack the agency's credibility.
> 
> Like you did above.
> 
> Having done that, what right do you have to ask for a flexible policy?   You by your own words helped create the exact conditions which cause public agencies to become inflexible.  No use complaining about it after you helped cause it.


No, it was because the CDC purposefully lied to people in order to preserve the PPE for health care workers.  If you lie, you destroy your credibility and trust.  Do it enough, and your credibility goes in the shitter, like public health's currently is.  They didn't "fix" anything (talk about destroying cred).  You think if there's another pandemic anyone will believe them?  There's a reason the boy who cried wolf is a timeless story.

p.s. Birx has now all but admitted she lied to both the public and Trump about 15 days to slow the spread, knowing from the get go it would be longer.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Your response proves my point.
> 
> When the CDC tried to fix their mask rule, what did people do?  They immediately jumped on it as proof that the rules are all bad, and used the policy correction as an excuse to attack the agency's credibility.
> 
> Like you did above.
> 
> Having done that, what right do you have to ask for a flexible policy?   You by your own words helped create the exact conditions which cause public agencies to become inflexible.  No use complaining about it after you helped cause it.


It is/was a two fold issue. 1) America was founded on the principles of independence, freedom and limited government and culturally many Americans are still firm believers in those principles, 2) Many of the restrictions lacked credibility and even if they were credible they were often selectively enforced depending on how important or elite you were.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No, it was because the CDC purposefully lied to people in order to preserve the PPE for health care workers.  If you lie, you destroy your credibility and trust.  Do it enough, and your credibility goes in the shitter, like public health's currently is.  They didn't "fix" anything (talk about destroying cred).  You think if there's another pandemic anyone will believe them?  There's a reason the boy who cried wolf is a timeless story.
> 
> p.s. Birx has now all but admitted she lied to both the public and Trump about 15 days to slow the spread, knowing from the get go it would be longer.


No?  These statements are not in opposition.

The CDC lied in an effort to protect front line health care workers.  The right wing media used this to undermine public health efforts in general.  As a result, our public health officials learned to think long and hard about any future policy corrections.

This is one unified story, not two in opposition.  Your part in it isn't honorable, either.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Raquel Tejada
> 
> View attachment 14274


Sun Up San Diego!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No?  These statements are not in opposition.
> 
> The CDC lied in an effort to protect front line health care workers.  The right wing media used this to undermine public health efforts in general.  As a result, our public health officials learned to think long and hard about any future policy corrections.
> 
> This is one unified story, not two in opposition.  Your part in it isn't honorable, either.


Man, you can't even admit that lying shouldn't be part of public policy and then throw around terms about "right wing media".  Talk about blaming the victim there.  Don't lie and you don't have the problem.  And it wasn't just one lie...it was repeated lies...like Birx has admitted about the 15 days, or BLM, or the school reopenings, or Fauci and his thresholds.

So if my part isn't honorable, your part in all this, and the resulting harm to children that resulting from your fear and selfishness, is downright disgusting.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> It is/was a two fold issue. 1) America was founded on the principles of independence, freedom and limited government and culturally many Americans are still firm believers in those principles, 2) Many of the restrictions lacked credibility and even if they were credible they were often selectively enforced depending on how important or elite you were.


For the enforcement he'll just blame the politicians instead of his virtuous saint-like technocratic elite.  If only the scientists had been put in charge....

Heinlein was prescient.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Man, you can't even admit that lying shouldn't be part of public policy and then throw around terms about "right wing media".  Talk about blaming the victim there.  Don't lie and you don't have the problem.  And it wasn't just one lie...it was repeated lies...like Birx has admitted about the 15 days, or BLM, or the school reopenings, or Fauci and his thresholds.
> 
> So if my part isn't honorable, your part in all this, and the resulting harm to children that resulting from your fear and selfishness, is downright disgusting.


Victim?  The only thing that lie cost you was a chance to buy up the PPE our doctors needed.

So, yeah.  You got lied to.  So what?  Unless you are the kind of person to buy up PPE during a health emergency, it did not impact your life one bit.

I'm not a fan of the lie, but your reaction to it is far out of proportion to any harm you suffered.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> No, it was because the CDC purposefully lied to people in order to preserve the PPE for health care workers.  If you lie, you destroy your credibility and trust.  Do it enough, and your credibility goes in the shitter, like public health's currently is.  They didn't "fix" anything (talk about destroying cred).  You think if there's another pandemic anyone will believe them?  There's a reason the boy who cried wolf is a timeless story.
> 
> p.s. Birx has now all but admitted she lied to both the public and Trump about 15 days to slow the spread, knowing from the get go it would be longer.


And then Trump shared about therapeutics and was hammered for telling everyone to inject bleach and horse poop in their arms. No one lies like this unless their being blackmailed or their in on the heist or just cold blooded killers.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The CDC lied in an effort to protect front line health care workers.  The right wing media used this to undermine public health efforts in general.  As a result, our public health officials learned to think long and hard about any future policy corrections.
> 
> This is one unified story, not two in opposition.  Your part in it isn't honorable, either.


No, they lied so you and your Bots here would preach lies to get people to inject poison in their immune system and their kids immune system. It's called fraud and people are dying and those who lied will pay the ultimate price.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Victim?  The only thing that lie cost you was a chance to buy up the PPE our doctors needed.
> 
> So, yeah.  You got lied to.  So what?  Unless you are the kind of person to buy up PPE during a health emergency, it did not impact your life one bit.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the lie, but your reaction to it is far out of proportion to any harm you suffered.


I know what your about and it's not good dad. Seriously, you make feel sick to my stomach lair!!!


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Victim?  The only thing that lie cost you was a chance to buy up the PPE our doctors needed.
> 
> So, yeah.  You got lied to.  So what?  Unless you are the kind of person to buy up PPE during a health emergency, it did not impact your life one bit.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the lie, but your reaction to it is far out of proportion to any harm you suffered.


They lied about effectiveness...they've lied about studies, they've lied about many things to do with your public health.  There are plenty of smart and had working scientist at the CDC.  Unfortunately those in power have become lazy and political.  Public health emergencies are hard enough, they are even harder when you lose credibility.  have you checked out paxlovid lately?  nothing lazy about it right? follow the $$$ , usually leads you to lazy crats getting rich. 

Why are you stuck on masks?  I mean, pretty much most people wore them...they wore them into places to eat, then took them off.  They wore them on planes until they didn't wear them on planes because it took the whole flight to drink/eat.  They wore them right under their nose in the check out line at the grocery store.  

I suppose you don't wan't to talk about vaccines and kids?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No?  These statements are not in opposition.
> 
> The CDC lied in an effort to protect front line health care workers.  The right wing media used this to undermine public health efforts in general.  As a result, our public health officials learned to think long and hard about any future policy corrections.
> 
> This is one unified story, not two in opposition.  Your part in it isn't honorable, either.


And that my friend is why you are an authoritarian if not an outright totalitarian.  The damage from the lie isn’t the chance to buy ppe. The damage is the destruction of trust it does to the system plus it debases the liar and demeans the recipient. What’s worse is humans being humans is it enables the elites who are in on the lie to cheat and the expense of everyone else (why we have things like insider trading laws). No lies…no public trust problem. It’s easy man…the noble lie should NEVER be part of public policy.

again, heinlein was prescient.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> And that my friend is why you are an authoritarian if not an outright totalitarian.  The damage from the lie isn’t the chance to buy ppe. The damage is the destruction of trust it does to the system plus it debases the liar and demeans the recipient. What’s worse is humans being humans is it enables the elites who are in on the lie to cheat and the expense of everyone else (why we have things like insider trading laws). No lies…no public trust problem. It’s easy man…the noble lie should NEVER be part of public policy.
> 
> again, heinlein was prescient.


It's called fraud. When you do fraud, you pay the ultimate price. Dad is a liar at best right now. I swear 100% every single person on here is being watched with what they say, teach and preach. Dad, Espola, Husker and EOTL Bot will have to give an answer to those lies.


----------



## crush

These people are sick, twisted and evil. I get that most of you are agnostic and some even hate God. Watch this. This is more than fraud by the way, they just use fraud to trick folks into taking the juice that messes with your DNA.









						Yuval Noah Harari | "If You Give Corporations & Armies the Technology to Start Messing with Our DNA & Our Brains They Would Like to Amplify Discipline & Intelligence. They Don't Need Compassion, Artistic Sensitivity or Spirituality.
					

Learn More About Order 66 from the Star Wars Series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko7u2NOiD5Y https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Order_66 Why is the U.S. Army doing research on Spike Ferritin Nanopar




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

*Let's see how these pups handle fire flies eating off their face! *


*The Docs that came over from Germany in 45' taught this monster fraudster well. He invented AIDS and blamed it on my Gay friends. I lived in Laguna and it was a scary time for so many. My mom loved the Gay community and one of her best friends died of AIDS. This time aroud, he used human, bat, dog, monkey and bat DNA and this latest round I hear has mix of of half Hippo and half rhino. You can;t make this shit up anymore. Monkey pox and now Hippopox.  *


----------



## crush

*"You will all eat bugs, own nothing and be happy"  *


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> They lied about effectiveness...they've lied about studies, they've lied about many things to do with your public health.  There are plenty of smart and had working scientist at the CDC.  Unfortunately those in power have become lazy and political.  Public health emergencies are hard enough, they are even harder when you lose credibility.  have you checked out paxlovid lately?  nothing lazy about it right? follow the $$$ , usually leads you to lazy crats getting rich.
> 
> Why are you stuck on masks?  I mean, pretty much most people wore them...they wore them into places to eat, then took them off.  They wore them on planes until they didn't wear them on planes because it took the whole flight to drink/eat.  They wore them right under their nose in the check out line at the grocery store.
> 
> I suppose you don't wan't to talk about vaccines and kids?


Kids and vaccines?   What about it?  

The only time I ran into a true kid vaccine mandate was for living in a dormitory.  No jab, no room.

Given the chance of transmission in a dorm, I thought the dorm room vaccine mandate was reasonable.  Similarly, I feel an adult vaccine mandate for going on a cruise is reasonable.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Kids and vaccines?   What about it?
> 
> The only time I ran into a true kid vaccine mandate was for living in a dormitory.  No jab, no room.
> 
> Given the chance of transmission in a dorm, I thought the dorm room vaccine mandate was reasonable.  Similarly, I feel an adult vaccine mandate for going on a cruise is reasonable.


No it’s ridiculous. Near zero chance of death and very very small risk of hospitalization from Covid in that population.  New efficacy numbers that indicate a with omicron it’s about 20-30% efficacy and falls with time to zero. Close quarters with prolonged periods of exposure which means even if vaccines reduce transmission it’s still going to rip through the population. Almost everyone of them has been exposed naturally at this point. And a heightened risk of myocarditis in males of that age group. While it may have arguably made sense when they thought the vaccine was sterlizing, once it mutated it made zero sense because this age group is going to 100% get it anyways.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No it’s ridiculous. Near zero chance of death and very very small risk of hospitalization from Covid in that population.  New efficacy numbers that indicate a with omicron it’s about 20-30% efficacy and falls with time to zero. Close quarters with prolonged periods of exposure which means even if vaccines reduce transmission it’s still going to rip through the population. Almost everyone of them has been exposed naturally at this point. And a heightened risk of myocarditis in males of that age group. While it may have arguably made sense when they thought the vaccine was sterlizing, once it mutated it made zero sense because this age group is going to 100% get it anyways.


The institution needs to decide on some policy, or lack of policy.   One possible policy is the one you suggest.   Calmly explain that covid spreads well in dorms, but that the institution is not taking precautions because it probably won’t send you to the hospital.  

The school in question did not happen to choose that policy.  

Perhaps you are right, and the best possible college policy is to treat covid as inevitable and allow covid to do what it will.  You are welcome to go to different schools and ask them to hire you as a public health consultant based on that proposal and your unique scientific background.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The institution needs to decide on some policy, or lack of policy.   One possible policy is the one you suggest.   Calmly explain that covid spreads well in dorms, but that the institution is not taking precautions because it probably won’t send you to the hospital.
> 
> The school in question did not happen to choose that policy.
> 
> Perhaps you are right, and the best possible college policy is to treat covid as inevitable and allow covid to do what it will.  You are welcome to go to different schools and ask them to hire you as a public health consultant based on that proposal and your unique scientific background.


Here’s why institutionally we tend to rush to the worst case scenario:  because if they adopt my policy and some immunocompromised kid with aids winds up in the hospital, the consultant is going to get blamed. What’s worse is the risk managers for the underwriters, prior to issuing their Covid rider, probably required the university to hire said consultant.  So the university can’t go against the consultants recommends without losing their rider.  And the consultant can’t just say well here are the pros and cons because the underwriter will only insure if there’s a consultant approved plan in place.  And there is no upside for the consultant in throwing it down the middle of the plate: if they get it wrong not only might they be professionally liable but they’ll also torch their reputation while being overly cautious costs them nothing. You see this phenomena all the time in outside law forms being asked to give opinion letters to companies as well. The only thing that’s going to shift this is the first big myocarditis lawsuit with a big damage award (the McDonald’s coffee cup case of vaccines) because in most jurisdictions the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> No it’s ridiculous. Near zero chance of death and very very small risk of hospitalization from Covid in that population.  New efficacy numbers that indicate a with omicron it’s about 20-30% efficacy and falls with time to zero. Close quarters with prolonged periods of exposure which means even if vaccines reduce transmission it’s still going to rip through the population. Almost everyone of them has been exposed naturally at this point. And a heightened risk of myocarditis in males of that age group. While it may have arguably made sense when they thought the vaccine was sterlizing, once it mutated it made zero sense because this age group is going to 100% get it anyways.


It’s known as legally liable or legal liability. Look it up.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Here’s why institutionally we tend to rush to the worst case scenario:  because if they adopt my policy and some immunocompromised kid with aids winds up in the hospital, the consultant is going to get blamed. What’s worse is the risk managers for the underwriters, prior to issuing their Covid rider, probably required the university to hire said consultant.  So the university can’t go against the consultants recommends without losing their rider.  And the consultant can’t just say well here are the pros and cons because the underwriter will only insure if there’s a consultant approved plan in place.  And there is no upside for the consultant in throwing it down the middle of the plate: if they get it wrong not only might they be professionally liable but they’ll also torch their reputation while being overly cautious costs them nothing. You see this phenomena all the time in outside law forms being asked to give opinion letters to companies as well. The only thing that’s going to shift this is the first big myocarditis lawsuit with a big damage award (the McDonald’s coffee cup case of vaccines) because in most jurisdictions the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).


My buddy has a kid playing on the East Coast. Had the flu and took the "test" and it came back positive. This sweet, young 18 year old dd got booted out of her dorm room on campus and bused to a hotel for a week, alone!  Insane!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Here’s why institutionally we tend to rush to the worst case scenario:  because if they adopt my policy and some immunocompromised kid with aids winds up in the hospital, the consultant is going to get blamed. What’s worse is the risk managers for the underwriters, prior to issuing their Covid rider, probably required the university to hire said consultant.  So the university can’t go against the consultants recommends without losing their rider.  And the consultant can’t just say well here are the pros and cons because the underwriter will only insure if there’s a consultant approved plan in place.  And there is no upside for the consultant in throwing it down the middle of the plate: if they get it wrong not only might they be professionally liable but they’ll also torch their reputation while being overly cautious costs them nothing. You see this phenomena all the time in outside law forms being asked to give opinion letters to companies as well. The only thing that’s going to shift this is the first big myocarditis lawsuit with a big damage award (the McDonald’s coffee cup case of vaccines) because in most jurisdictions the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).


In other words, the consultant is forced to actually pay attention to the immunocompromised kid with aids and the seemingly healthy kid with an undiagnosed heart condition.

That is the best argument for American liability laws I have heard in a long time.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> In other words, the consultant is forced to actually pay attention to the immunocompromised kid with aids and the seemingly healthy kid with an undiagnosed heart condition.
> 
> That is the best argument for American liability laws I have heard in a long time.


The juicy part is also accurate…

“ the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).”

So, yes… but why doesn’t it apply to all entities?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

The clinical trial data for Modern's bivalent (ie, containing mRNA encoding S protein regions of two variants) vaccines looks promising. In particular, the one targeting both ancestral Cov-2 and BA.4/5 produces high neutralizing titers to the latest omicron flavors.  Keep in mind that no matter what you are reading, Cov-2 has not really undergone selection for immune escape up to this point. If that was the main selective pressure, the ability of the long term immune memory to prevent severe disease would be dissipating as well.  But fortunately that aspect of the immune response has been holding strong.  Basically, there has been some antigenic drift that has lowered the kDs for neutralizing antibodies binding to S in the latest variants. The main reason omicron and is sub-lineages have won out in the swarm is because they've been selected to replicate so fast they simply outpace the ability of many peoples' immune systems to keep up-they can't crank out the Abs at sufficiently high concentraton to offset the reduced binding.  So irrespective of what fold increase in titer is actually achieved with the new boosters, producing tighter binding antibodies could help more people keep pace with omicron. The bivalent booster that includes priming to BA.4/5 could be available by this fall. The link is to a pre-print from I think the initial June data.  More recent data has apparently been sent to regulators in the past few days.  So updating the vaccines appears to finally be moving.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.06.24.22276703v1.full.pdf


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> In other words, the consultant is forced to actually pay attention to the immunocompromised kid with aids and the seemingly healthy kid with an undiagnosed heart condition.
> 
> That is the best argument for American liability laws I have heard in a long time.


Ha I knew you’d miss the point. The consultant has to make a risk assessment but there is no upside to the consultant actually making a proper risk assessment…the incentives are always to take the most cautious instead of the most realistic approach…from the upteen different options all of which account for the entire pool of people. From someone who doesn’t let their kid head a ball, probably never let them eat cookie dough, and likely eats his meat well done, of course you like that.  The rest of us don’t live life that way. I’m frankly surprised you do travel soccer at all…the risks of injury are astonished high (the girls are virtually guaranteed one before they finish) not to mention the car ride.


N00B said:


> The juicy part is also accurate…
> 
> “ the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).”
> 
> So, yes… but why doesn’t it apply to all entities?


Think about it.   Why would the government extend the protection to itself and pharma?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Kids and vaccines?   What about it?
> 
> The only time I ran into a true kid vaccine mandate was for living in a dormitory.  No jab, no room.
> 
> Given the chance of transmission in a dorm, I thought the dorm room vaccine mandate was reasonable.  Similarly, I feel an adult vaccine mandate for going on a cruise is reasonable.


Except the “vaccine” doesn’t prevent transmission, so there is that.

“Get the vaccine and the virus stops with you”…. Remember those words?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Think about it.   Why would the government extend the protection to itself and pharma?


Great question Grace T. I have been sitting this morning in deep meditation and hoping we start getting to the Truth of the matter. What's the matter? We ALL got lied to numerous times and they keep lying. When it starts with a big fat lie, well they cover them up with all sorts of lies. Their masters at lying. I mean, look at Espola and Hisker. All they do is laugh, throw shit on the wall, laugh some more and then more laughs. They have NEVER said, "You know what, I was wrong."


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Here’s why institutionally we tend to rush to the worst case scenario:  because if they adopt my policy and some immunocompromised kid with aids winds up in the hospital, the consultant is going to get blamed. What’s worse is the risk managers for the underwriters, prior to issuing their Covid rider, probably required the university to hire said consultant.  So the university can’t go against the consultants recommends without losing their rider.  And the consultant can’t just say well here are the pros and cons because the underwriter will only insure if there’s a consultant approved plan in place.  And there is no upside for the consultant in throwing it down the middle of the plate: if they get it wrong not only might they be professionally liable but they’ll also torch their reputation while being overly cautious costs them nothing. You see this phenomena all the time in outside law forms being asked to give opinion letters to companies as well. The only thing that’s going to shift this is the first big myocarditis lawsuit with a big damage award (the McDonald’s coffee cup case of vaccines) because in most jurisdictions the shield applies to manufacturers and governments, not private employers and institutions that issue mandates (I may be wrong but I think California and Massachusetts extended the shield to education institutions).


Are you aware that Covid liability insurance even exists?  I'd be surprised if it did and I couldn't imagine the cost.


----------



## crush

Hey Grace T and all the others scratching their brain in their heads and asking the obvious question: Why would they lie? Why would a Doc lie to a little 12 year old girl hoping to represent her country someday and who trained for 18 months to accomplish her goal? I confront liars for a living. This Doc told me it's best to STFU or else. Well, I told him I will never STFU. He told to my face, "with that attitude, I will get nothing and my kid will blackballed because coaches don't like dads asking questions." He then looked at me at Starbucks with evil in his eyes and said, "Hey dad, you have no idea who your fucking with."  These monsters are imposters and they have been wrecking havoc on all of us for a very long time. I told him as I left and I looked at him directly in his lying eyes and said, "Oh ya, go tell your pals I will never STFU."


----------



## crush

When you F the kids, you will get Millstoned!!  WTF up everyone. Go get some strong coffee and open your eyes.  Watch this @watfly. You care for the kids and it was Mr. T that did something about it. You and everyone here is witnessing the destruction of pure evil. Believe in God or not is not the lesson today. You just need to believe that kids have been used as pawns for the last time on this planet.










						Trump. Thunderstruck. Great Video
					

Doesn't feel like four minutes. What a 4 years.




					rumble.com


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Are you aware that Covid liability insurance even exists?  I'd be surprised if it did and I couldn't imagine the cost.


Yes it does but it’s a rider. Two actuarial colleagues and I just had lunch the other day (indoors) and we’re just discussing it.  The larger private universities self insure so they have a management fund but the dynamics are the same. State universities are more complex and we didn’t get too far into the weeds. What triggered it was I asked a question about the vaccine mandates at private high schools and the liability they might face. 

it was a fun risk assessment conversation.  I told them about dad4 and the heading comment. They got a hoot out of it.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Except the “vaccine” doesn’t prevent transmission, so there is that.
> 
> “Get the vaccine and the virus stops with you”…. Remember those words?


Sure.  I remember those words.   The talking heads were trying to simplify it enough that everyone could understand.  The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.  

Did you want a detailed discussion of a probability models necessary to evaluate a partial reduction to the odds of transmission?  That exists, too.   But the math is harder than fits on a TV screen.  

If you don’t want the simplified version, hang out on pub med and read the full version.  If the full version is too much, accept the TV version for what it is.

But don’t limit yourself to the TV version and then complain when the simplification loses accuracy.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.


The Vaccine fucks with your DNA and you sir are F$$$ed!


----------



## crush

Bryson Gray - HUNTER BIDEN HACKED #hunterbiden
					

www.BrysonCreates2.com for MERCH! Text CULTURE to 855-909-1389 so I can update you about my music DIRECTLY!




					rumble.com


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Kids and vaccines?   What about it?
> 
> The only time I ran into a true kid vaccine mandate was for living in a dormitory.  No jab, no room.
> 
> Given the chance of transmission in a dorm, I thought the dorm room vaccine mandate was reasonable.  Similarly, I feel an adult vaccine mandate for going on a cruise is reasonable.


what exactly is this adult vaccine on a cruise ship going to do? what's the purpose/intent?  is it supposed to prevent transmission?  provide protection?


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Sure.  I remember those words.   The talking heads were trying to simplify it enough that everyone could understand.  The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.
> 
> Did you want a detailed discussion of a probability models necessary to evaluate a partial reduction to the odds of transmission?  That exists, too.   But the math is harder than fits on a TV screen.
> 
> If you don’t want the simplified version, hang out on pub med and read the full version.  If the full version is too much, accept the TV version for what it is.
> 
> But don’t limit yourself to the TV version and then complain when the simplification loses accuracy.


well, back that thing up ----the talking heads orginally told you the vaccine prevented transmission and provided immunity.  Only after they didn't do these things did they backtrack.  Back to the credibility thing.  

I know you like models, and you should I suppose.  they have their place


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> what exactly is this adult vaccine on a cruise ship going to do? what's the purpose/intent?  is it supposed to prevent transmission?  provide protection?


I will answer. I know I'm emotional today and all but this is getting serious for all of us now. Dr. Fruad say's today the #1 reason to get the jabs + boosters is to keep you from going to the hospital and death. The fact is, no one is dying from Covid who did not get the Jab. They might die from da flu, but not from Covid. Another brain freeze: In the last two years, I have never heard anyone tell me their kid has the flu, it's only, "My kid tested + for Covid." Think you guys: where is the flu?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sure.  I remember those words.   The talking heads were trying to simplify it enough that everyone could understand.  The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.
> 
> Did you want a detailed discussion of a probability models necessary to evaluate a partial reduction to the odds of transmission?  That exists, too.   But the math is harder than fits on a TV screen.
> 
> If you don’t want the simplified version, hang out on pub med and read the full version.  If the full version is too much, accept the TV version for what it is.
> 
> But don’t limit yourself to the TV version and then complain when the simplification loses accuracy.


This is a revisionist lie too.  They thought the vaccines would be sterilizing.  Not 30% efficacy reducing with time to zero

my authoritarian translator is going nuts: “magic number!  Magic numbers!  Too complicated for your little brain to understand. Look over here but not over there!”


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Sure.  I remember those words.   The talking heads were trying to simplify it enough that everyone could understand.  The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.
> 
> Did you want a detailed discussion of a probability models necessary to evaluate a partial reduction to the odds of transmission?  That exists, too.   But the math is harder than fits on a TV screen.
> 
> If you don’t want the simplified version, hang out on pub med and read the full version.  If the full version is too much, accept the TV version for what it is.
> 
> But don’t limit yourself to the TV version and then complain when the simplification loses accuracy.


Talking heads as in Fauci and Biden?


----------



## crush

There here again. Another mask mandate is coming and I bet you all $1 that lockdowns will come as well. Mid Terms done legally, ethically and fair and no cheating and we all know the Dems will have no party.  Joe and Hunter are the face of the party. Stay safe you guys and please stay away from da juice  

Newsom: California is about freedom!

Also Newsom: We’re probably bringing back mask mandates










						L.A. County nears return of indoor mask mandate as case numbers continue to rise
					

Kara Finnstrom reports the latest on the COVID-19 pandemic, as numbers continue to skyrocket around the nation. In Los Angeles County, where deaths have doubled from the month prior, health officials are prepared to reinstate the indoor mask mandate.



					www.cbsnews.com
				





Just throw all the Science out the window.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Sure.  I remember those words.   The talking heads were trying to simplify it enough that everyone could understand.  The vaccine reduces your odds of transmission, but not to zero.
> 
> Did you want a detailed discussion of a probability models necessary to evaluate a partial reduction to the odds of transmission?  That exists, too.   But the math is harder than fits on a TV screen.
> 
> If you don’t want the simplified version, hang out on pub med and read the full version.  If the full version is too much, accept the TV version for what it is.
> 
> But don’t limit yourself to the TV version and then complain when the simplification loses accuracy.


It use to be referred to as The Readers Digest version . . . not always the most comprehensive view.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This is a revisionist lie too.  They thought the vaccines would be sterilizing.  Not 30% efficacy reducing with time to zero
> 
> my authoritarian translator is going nuts: “magic number!  Magic numbers!  Too complicated for your little brain to understand. Look over here but not over there!”


Dad4, the so called Math Professor, is nothing but a Math Magician. I dealt with these whacho liars at school all the time, as well as my Science Magician teachers and Health Liars. I made them cry when I was in my youth and I made them get all mad and red in the face when I question them in front of the class. Their all lying to you, 100%.  Dad lies for a living with his "Magic Math."


----------



## crush

Friends of Dad's kids: What does you Dad do for a living? 

Dad kid: He teaches "Magic Math" and then lies for a living. For his free time, he spends it all on the socal soccer forum lying some more. I miss him so much but he has a job to do 24/7.


----------



## crush

The crowds are starting to gather around. This song fires me up and I am so ready!


----------



## crush

Mario the PM from Italy just resigned and Bill Gates is tired of being rich and plans to give all his $$$$ away.  No Bill, all your money will be taken away from you because of "Crimes Against Humanity."  Trump the Chump told us all in 2017 that his #1 job as President is to eradicate human trafficking. Open your heart and eyes to the Truth and I promise you, you will be cleaned!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Talking heads as in Fauci and Biden?


I think of Biden as more of a human form of Google Translate taking written words into human language. I am pretty sure they don't allow him to take too many questions ad-hoc for fear of something like this happening.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> This is a revisionist lie too.  They thought the vaccines would be sterilizing.  Not 30% efficacy reducing with time to zero
> 
> my authoritarian translator is going nuts: “magic number!  Magic numbers!  Too complicated for your little brain to understand. Look over here but not over there!”


Revisionist?   Not really.  The original data promised me 85% protection against base variant and maybe Alpha.  It delivered.  It also gave me some smaller protection against later variants. 

What did you expect?  Did you really think they made a vaccine in 2020 against variants which would not even exist until 18 months later?

It's like asking why your 2017 flu shot didn't work perfectly against the 2019 flu.


----------



## crush

Are you all starting to see a theme with these leaders of the Juice? I warned every single one of you and most of you ignored me and made fun of me under your breath. Yes, my pride likes to be right, but I was hoping I was a crazy ass fool spouting nonsense to all of you.  Pics of Joe and Hunter are gnarly you guys. Basically, they want to normalize ((go back to nomal)) men are really women too and we just have to accept that. Just wait


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Revisionist?   Not really.  The original data promised me 85% protection against base variant and maybe Alpha.  It delivered.  It also gave me some smaller protection against later variants.
> 
> What did you expect?  Did you really think they made a vaccine in 2020 against variants which would not even exist until 18 months later?
> 
> It's like asking why your 2017 flu shot didn't work perfectly against the 2019 flu.


I have to ask because I am curious. Do you dress up like a woman on your spare time? Men taking "Women of the Year" awards away from real women and men taking swim medals from women are not going to be around this planet anymore.  Play dress up all you want bro, but don;t tell me your a women because your not, your a liar!!


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Revisionist?   Not really.  The original data promised me 85% protection against base variant and maybe Alpha.  It delivered.  It also gave me some smaller protection against later variants.
> 
> What did you expect?  Did you really think they made a vaccine in 2020 against variants which would not even exist until 18 months later?
> 
> It's like asking why your 2017 flu shot didn't work perfectly against the 2019 flu.


Wow...deeper down this hole right....every time I think you can't shock me any more than you have....

The entire assumption at the beginning wasn't that it was like a flu shot.  It was folks like me that were saying watching out it was like a flu shot because of the immune escape.  I recall you saying in March 2021 that it would "all be over" by summer and Biden saying we'd be done the 4th of July.  The assumption was that it was closer to the polio vaccine than it was a flu shot.  It's how they sold it to the public.   So either: a) they lied, or b) they goofed in a very big way.  How do you want it?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> So either: a) they lied, or b) they goofed in a very big way.  How do you want it?


Yes!!! No more objections and just answer the Q finally. Let's see if the Dad bot can be intellectually honest for once. Pick one dad and you will go far in the next life


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Wow...deeper down this hole right....every time I think you can't shock me any more than you have....
> 
> The entire assumption at the beginning wasn't that it was like a flu shot.  It was folks like me that were saying watching out it was like a flu shot because of the immune escape.  I recall you saying in March 2021 that it would "all be over" by summer and Biden saying we'd be done the 4th of July.  The assumption was that it was closer to the polio vaccine than it was a flu shot.  It's how they sold it to the public.   So either: a) they lied, or b) they goofed in a very big way.  How do you want it?


For two years, we have known that the vaccines target the spike protein.

For almost two years, we've had news articles about variants with a change to the spike protein.  

For at least a year, we've had news articles telling us about the tests to figure out whether the vaccine works on the latest variant.

Put it together.  They told you straight up that the virus was mutating, that the mutations affect the vaccine target, that each new variant was affected slightly differently by the vaccine, and that they didn't know efficacy against a new variant until they test against it.

It was all right there in black and white.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> For two years, we have known that the vaccines target the spike protein.
> 
> For almost two years, we've had news articles about variants with a change to the spike protein.
> 
> For at least a year, we've had news articles telling us about the tests to figure out whether the vaccine works on the latest variant.
> 
> Put it together.  They told you straight up that the virus was mutating, that the mutations affect the vaccine target, that each new variant was affected slightly differently by the vaccine, and that they didn't know efficacy against a new variant until they test against it.
> 
> It was all right there in black and white.


Wow man.  Lie it is.  That was MY narrative back in the spring of 2021.  YOUR narrative was that it was "just about over".  And that's how they sold it to the American people.

p.s. the only thing you've done is convinced me that maybe crush has a modicum of a point (subject to later evidence coming out, which we will need to wait to hear until after the midterm shake ups happen) and there was a bit of conspiracy to it...that the Biden admin knew we would still neck into it a year later after his 4th of July deadline....

p.p.s. the greatest evidence against this is Fauci himself and his drifting herd immunity thresholds...into the spring of 2021 he was still convinced if a certain percentage of the population got vaxxed it would go away, hence the mandates.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Wow man.  Lie it is.  That was MY narrative back in the spring of 2021.  YOUR narrative was that it was "just about over".  And that's how they sold it to the American people.
> 
> p.s. the only thing you've done is convinced me that maybe crush has a modicum of a point (subject to later evidence coming out, which we will need to wait to hear until after the midterm shake ups happen) and there was a bit of conspiracy to it...that the Biden admin knew we would still neck into it a year later after his 4th of July deadline....
> 
> p.p.s. the greatest evidence against this is Fauci himself and his drifting herd immunity thresholds...into the spring of 2021 he was still convinced if a certain percentage of the population got vaxxed it would go away, hence the mandates.


This conversation, BTW, reminds me of whenever I discuss the concept of perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary with a Catholic.  It was a concept that worked itself into the Church in the 4th century but it was something which completely flew in the face of the historical record: namely, that the Bible specifically mentions the siblings of Jesus and that the first successor/pope to Jesus (James of Jerusalem) claimed to be his brother, and the Gospels themselves only claim Mary was a virgin before the birth of her eldest, Jesus.  They twist themselves into a whole bunch of different directions that "sibling" is intended to mean spiritual brother or a cousin or something.  The reality man is they thought the vaccine was sterlizing (or at the very minimum, if you are correct, sold it as such to the American people, if crush is right about the conspiracy).  If it was a lie, it was one of the greatest con games of the modern era because everyone thought the vaccine would make things go away, and you all thought I was crazy for saying no it wouldn't.  You yourself thought it was just about over, which meant you either were in on the lie and knew better, or you were just plain old wrong.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush

espola said:


> View attachment 14281


@Grace T. This guy knew for sure.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This conversation, BTW, reminds me of whenever I discuss the concept of perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary with a Catholic.  It was a concept that worked itself into the Church in the 4th century but it was something which completely flew in the face of the historical record: namely, that the Bible specifically mentions the siblings of Jesus and that the first successor/pope to Jesus (James of Jerusalem) claimed to be his brother, and the Gospels themselves only claim Mary was a virgin before the birth of her eldest, Jesus.  They twist themselves into a whole bunch of different directions that "sibling" is intended to mean spiritual brother or a cousin or something.  The reality man is they thought the vaccine was sterlizing (or at the very minimum, if you are correct, sold it as such to the American people, if crush is right about the conspiracy).  If it was a lie, it was one of the greatest con games of the modern era because everyone thought the vaccine would make things go away, and you all thought I was crazy for saying no it wouldn't.  You yourself thought it was just about over, which meant you either were in on the lie and knew better, or you were just plain old wrong.


Im starting to strongly believe the letters in the 66 books of the bible got hacked. One word changes the stories. I dont trust the men who in 382 put it together. Mary and Mary stayed with Christ to the very end. Took care of his body. The men? They left. No womam helping Constatine or King James with deciding what we read or dont read when the printing press gets invented 1300 years later. Word games are huge. Wives SUBMIT to your husbands is what Espola would habe translated. Crush would have gone with, "mem and women, work together. And submit to ONE ANOTHER as equals partners. Pop is not Joe Biden. Pop= power of  penis v power of pu$$y. Men worhip both and have the strength to get both. All the answers are under the Vatican. I love you Grace T


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> View attachment 14281


That would certainly explain why some are so afraid!


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> This conversation, BTW, reminds me of whenever I discuss the concept of perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary with a Catholic.  It was a concept that worked itself into the Church in the 4th century but it was something which completely flew in the face of the historical record: namely, that the Bible specifically mentions the siblings of Jesus and that the first successor/pope to Jesus (James of Jerusalem) claimed to be his brother, and the Gospels themselves only claim Mary was a virgin before the birth of her eldest, Jesus.  They twist themselves into a whole bunch of different directions that "sibling" is intended to mean spiritual brother or a cousin or something.  The reality man is they thought the vaccine was sterlizing (or at the very minimum, if you are correct, sold it as such to the American people, if crush is right about the conspiracy).  If it was a lie, it was one of the greatest con games of the modern era because everyone thought the vaccine would make things go away, and you all thought I was crazy for saying no it wouldn't.  You yourself thought it was just about over, which meant you either were in on the lie and knew better, or you were just plain old wrong.


One more lie: if you dont love me you can go to hell!


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> For two years, we have known that the vaccines target the spike protein.
> 
> For almost two years, we've had news articles about variants with a change to the spike protein.
> 
> For at least a year, we've had news articles telling us about the tests to figure out whether the vaccine works on the latest variant.
> 
> Put it together.  They told you straight up that the virus was mutating, that the mutations affect the vaccine target, that each new variant was affected slightly differently by the vaccine, and that they didn't know efficacy against a new variant until they test against it.
> 
> It was all right there in black and white.


Ha...there is nothing black and white about a novel virus, especially this one.  Spike proteins, mutation, vaccine degradation...duhhh.  News articles telling you what?  

by the way, mutations are normally a good thing. The jury is still out on whether ongoing mutations will continue to benefit hoomans.   General advice:  listen to your doctor, eat well, maintain a healthy weight.  If you aren't high risk, are healthy, under age 55 and your doc is pushing pharma on you, consider another doc.  If you are within a high risk population, thrown back a vaccine or two, wear a mask, don't frequent confined public spaces with little to no ventilation.  

Regardless of how many articles are written with sensational headlines that depict the latest and greatest doom and gloom variant, most hoomans have moved beyond covid - and rightfully so.


----------



## Desert Hound

Happened again said:


> Ha...there is nothing black and white about a novel virus, especially this one.  Spike proteins, mutation, vaccine degradation...duhhh.  News articles telling you what?
> 
> by the way, mutations are normally a good thing. The jury is still out on whether ongoing mutations will continue to benefit hoomans.   General advice:  listen to your doctor, eat well, maintain a healthy weight.  If you aren't high risk, are healthy, under age 55 and your doc is pushing pharma on you, consider another doc.  If you are within a high risk population, thrown back a vaccine or two, wear a mask, don't frequent confined public spaces with little to no ventilation.
> 
> Regardless of how many articles are written with sensational headlines that depict the latest and greatest doom and gloom variant, most hoomans have moved beyond covid - and rightfully so.


Here is Fauci admitting that the vax do little to stop infection. https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-admits-covid-19-vaccines-protect-overly-well-infection


Happened again said:


> Ha...there is nothing black and white about a novel virus, especially this one.  Spike proteins, mutation, vaccine degradation...duhhh.  News articles telling you what?
> 
> by the way, mutations are normally a good thing. The jury is still out on whether ongoing mutations will continue to benefit hoomans.   General advice:  listen to your doctor, eat well, maintain a healthy weight.  If you aren't high risk, are healthy, under age 55 and your doc is pushing pharma on you, consider another doc.  If you are within a high risk population, thrown back a vaccine or two, wear a mask, don't frequent confined public spaces with little to no ventilation.
> 
> Regardless of how many articles are written with sensational headlines that depict the latest and greatest doom and gloom variant, most hoomans have moved beyond covid - and rightfully so.











						Fauci admits that COVID-19 vaccines do not protect 'overly well' against infection
					

White House chief medical adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci expounded on COVID-19 vaccines' efficacy and breakthrough COVID infections Tuesday on "Your World."




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

Here lies the Hunter. This breaks my heart. Puppies? WTF and this guy get's front Roe seat at the WH and Joe say's 100% Hunter is the smartest man he has ever met. Were watching a sic movie but so many did not believe, even if told. We ALL have to be shown what these people have doing with kids. This ain't nothing either you guys.  This is PG13, yet so disturbing. Kids were born into this and so was Hunter. Was Joe also born into this kind of life style? The darkness is being exposed for all to see. Pray, because this is just the beginning of major crimes against children!!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> For two years, we have known that the vaccines target the spike protein.
> 
> For almost two years, we've had news articles about variants with a change to the spike protein.
> 
> For at least a year, we've had news articles telling us about the tests to figure out whether the vaccine works on the latest variant.
> 
> Put it together.  They told you straight up that the virus was mutating, that the mutations affect the vaccine target, that each new variant was affected slightly differently by the vaccine, and that they didn't know efficacy against a new variant until they test against it.
> 
> It was all right there in black and white.


Not if you are doing your best to avoid those colors.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> Here is Fauci admitting that the vax do little to stop infection. https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-admits-covid-19-vaccines-protect-overly-well-infection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci admits that COVID-19 vaccines do not protect 'overly well' against infection
> 
> 
> White House chief medical adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci expounded on COVID-19 vaccines' efficacy and breakthrough COVID infections Tuesday on "Your World."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Aren’t you one of those that doesn’t believe the good doctor?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aren’t you one of those that doesn’t believe the good doctor?


what do you believe?  remember when he told you vaccines worked?  how about when he told you they kinda worked?  how bout, that they kinda, maybe, sometimes, depends on who are work?  He was our 4th of july savior, don't you remember?


----------



## Happened again

A ‘breadth of protection’: Novavax’s newly approved COVID vaccine arms the U.S. with a new weapon against Omicron BA.5 subvariant
					

Novavax says its vaccine prompted “broad immune responses” against all COVID variants, including BA.5, in clinical data.




					www.yahoo.com
				





Maybe it's just time to do some traditional science/medicine.  I'm sure people will appreciate having less side effects.  Those holding out may be swayed by Novovax.


----------



## Grace T.

Happened again said:


> A ‘breadth of protection’: Novavax’s newly approved COVID vaccine arms the U.S. with a new weapon against Omicron BA.5 subvariant
> 
> 
> Novavax says its vaccine prompted “broad immune responses” against all COVID variants, including BA.5, in clinical data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's just time to do some traditional science/medicine.  I'm sure people will appreciate having less side effects.  Those holding out may be swayed by Novovax.


The vast majority of those people holding out have already had it.  It wasn’t approved as a booster so it’s also not helpful there.  Perhaps someday we’ll get the whole story why they slow walked this one.


----------



## Happened again

Grace T. said:


> The vast majority of those people holding out have already had it.  It wasn’t approved as a booster so it’s also not helpful there.  Perhaps someday we’ll get the whole story why they slow walked this one.


Great question on why it took so long here in the US.  It's very popular off shore .  Plenty of conspiracies to be found.  This is their very first go to market product, kinda strange for an oldish company.


----------



## crush




----------



## Kicker 2.0

[





Happened again said:


> what do you believe?  remember when he told you vaccines worked?  how about when he told you they kinda worked?  how bout, that they kinda, maybe, sometimes, depends on who are work?  He was our 4th of july savior, don't you remember?


How many lies, half truths, wrong decisions and cover ups do you need to catch someone in before it’s ok to question them and what they say?


----------



## crush

This is for Grandpa @espola eyes only you guys.  He wanted to see the Lap Top from Hell. Scotty Films did a good job blocking the nudes and he knocks it out of the ball park with Bryson Gray. Espola, I pray for the day when you get on your knees and say sorry and that you were 100% wrong. If you can't, well I think we all know what you and Husker are about and what you support and who you support!!!

https://rumble.com/v1c9qi1-bryson-gray-hunter-biden-hacked.html


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Aren’t you one of those that doesn’t believe the good doctor?


I am just glad he is saying the obvious part out loud. Most of us knew long ago it didn't stop infection.

Maybe now that he has said it, his blind followers like you may come around.


----------



## crush

$900+ Million dollar Golden Parachute for CEO.  Follow the money and kids.............


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> I am just glad he is saying the obvious part out loud. Most of us knew long ago it didn't stop infection.
> 
> Maybe now that he has said it, his blind followers like you may come around.


Never paid him much attention.


----------



## Grace T.

Kicker 2.0 said:


> [
> How many lies, half truths, wrong decisions and cover ups do you need to catch someone in before it’s ok to question them and what they say?


You haven’t been paying attention.   according to dad4 it’s dishonorable to even be raising questions or point out their errors when our health experts are struggling trying to save our lives. It’s our job to listen and obey because they know best and we’re just peons that don’t know any better


----------



## crush

CNN and Fox are always late to the news!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You haven’t been paying attention.   according to dad4 it’s dishonorable to even be raising questions or point out their errors when our health experts are struggling trying to save our lives. It’s our job to listen and obey because they know best and we’re just peons that don’t know any better


Coocoo.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

All I’ve observed is that when there is no argument, insults are used….


----------



## crush

Breaking: Estonian prime minister Kaja Kallas has just resigned. People around the world are not taking the vaccine BS anymore.


----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> Never paid him much attention.


Oh you did. You were on the bandwagon of banning or firing people for not getting vaxxed

You were also one that said they are safe, etc.

And yet as myself and many others said.  There has been no long term studies on effectiveness or safety.

And yet you despite that you were all for mandatory vaxxes and firing people. That despite no knowledge of long term effectiveness or safety.

A major reason why kids are behind, we have major inflation, etc is because people like you didn't question authority. As a matter of fact you took a rather authoritarian position regarding lockdowns, vaxx mandates, etc. And today we are feeling the devastating effects of terrible policy.

You..dad. Espola were and are consistently wrong. And as time goes on the results show how much harm your policies caused.

Kids education harmed. Highest inflation in 40 yes. Biz for many wiped out. Saving for many devastated.

None of the policies you loved would have stopped the spread.

And yet dad...defends the indefensible. And you click like when he does that. Espola follows along but has yet to lay out his own opinion other than saying link.

At some point you and dad need to say. .we were wrong


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> Oh you did. You were on the bandwagon of banning or firing people for not getting vaxxed
> 
> You were also one that said they are safe, etc.
> 
> And yet as myself and many others said.  There has been no long term studies on effectiveness or safety.
> 
> And yet you despite that you were all for mandatory vaxxes and firing people. That despite no knowledge of long term effectiveness or safety.
> 
> A major reason why kids are behind, we have major inflation, etc is because people like you didn't question authority. As a matter of fact you took a rather authoritarian position regarding lockdowns, vaxx mandates, etc. And today we are feeling the devastating effects of terrible policy.
> 
> You..dad. Espola were and are consistently wrong. And as time goes on the results show how much harm your policies caused.
> 
> Kids education harmed. Highest inflation in 40 yes. Biz for many wiped out. Saving for many devastated.
> 
> None of the policies you loved would have stopped the spread.
> 
> And yet dad...defends the indefensible. And you click like when he does that. Espola follows along but has yet to lay out his own opinion other than saying link.
> 
> At some point you and dad need to say. .we were wrong


----------



## crush

*Espola and Husker trying to sleep last night. TGIFF!!!*


----------



## crush

Here we go…
Los Angeles County is planning to* reinstate its indoor mask mandate on July 29.*

A County public health director Barbara Ferrer on Thursday said, “Lots of folks are asking why we’re bothering and asking *why don’t we just let things run their course like other places may have done.”* 

*Barbara Ferrer told the peasants to be grateful because she is giving permission to still see your loved ones.*

“We are not closing anything down, we are not asking people to gather with the people they love we are not asking you to forgo activities you love, we are asking you to take a sensible step.”

“When there’s this much transmission …* put back on a well-fitting, high-filtration mask when you’re indoors around others.* And I think that’s the prudent thing to do,” she said.


----------



## crush

This is just 1% reporting. Volleyball player I know had to quit playing because of "heart" issues.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> Oh you did. You were on the bandwagon of banning or firing people for not getting vaxxed
> 
> You were also one that said they are safe, etc.
> 
> And yet as myself and many others said.  There has been no long term studies on effectiveness or safety.
> 
> And yet you despite that you were all for mandatory vaxxes and firing people. That despite no knowledge of long term effectiveness or safety.
> 
> A major reason why kids are behind, we have major inflation, etc is because people like you didn't question authority. As a matter of fact you took a rather authoritarian position regarding lockdowns, vaxx mandates, etc. And today we are feeling the devastating effects of terrible policy.
> 
> You..dad. Espola were and are consistently wrong. And as time goes on the results show how much harm your policies caused.
> 
> Kids education harmed. Highest inflation in 40 yes. Biz for many wiped out. Saving for many devastated.
> 
> None of the policies you loved would have stopped the spread.
> 
> And yet dad...defends the indefensible. And you click like when he does that. Espola follows along but has yet to lay out his own opinion other than saying link.
> 
> At some point you and dad need to say. .we were wrong


Was I? All that and more? Lol!


----------



## crush

Hüsker Dü said:


> Was I? All that and more? Lol!


----------



## crush

Plandemic II is here just in time for the Mid terms. I think all of us besides the 3bot team of DadEspola-Husker Du know the gig is up. The Q is: will you comply again? 

*CBS, ABC, CNN sound the alarm on coronavirus BA.5, call for masking: ‘The worst variant is here’*

The rise of a new ‘Deltacron’? BA.5 combines the worst traits of Omicron with the potential for severity reminiscent of Delta, experts say," a Fortune Magazine headline read on Tuesday morning.  

CNN, meanwhile, ushered in news of BA.5 with the headline announcing "The worst variant is here."


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Coocoo.


I wouldn't go that far.  He certainly has some hypochondriac issues.


----------



## crush

Tomorrow marks the beginning of the nationwide transition of the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline to the easy to remember 3-digit Lifeline, 988. TODAY: Tune in at 10:15 AM ET for a 988 event in Philadelphia as part of our #HHSTour for mental health advice.


----------



## espola




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> View attachment 14309











						Health experts are quitting the NIH, CDC in droves
					

The NIH and CDC are reportedly facing staffing shortages as low morale drives away employees. Decisions like the closure of schools and then requiring face masks.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Health experts are quitting the NIH, CDC in droves
> 
> 
> The NIH and CDC are reportedly facing staffing shortages as low morale drives away employees. Decisions like the closure of schools and then requiring face masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Opinion piece disguised as a news article.

I got as far as "Fauci flip-flopped again.".  

Some of the opinions I agree with, but the facts in that article are few and far between.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The vast majority of those people holding out have already had it.  It wasn’t approved as a booster so it’s also not helpful there.  Perhaps someday we’ll get the whole story why they slow walked this one.


People have had it, but a large fraction of those infections were Delta or earlier.

That early natural immunity may well have the same problem v/s BA.5.  Seems likely that early natural immunity would also be attacking the wrong shape spike protein.

So, they've had "it", in the same sense that I've had the flu.  I had the old flu, but I could still get the new flu version next week.  (Though maybe not as bad.)


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> People have had it, but a large fraction of those infections were Delta or earlier.
> 
> That early natural immunity may well have the same problem v/s BA.5.  Seems likely that early natural immunity would also be attacking the wrong shape spike protein.
> 
> So, they've had "it", in the same sense that I've had the flu.  I had the old flu, but I could still get the new flu version next week.  (Though maybe not as bad.)


Hey we agree on something…look at that

just like if I want to avoid the flu, particularly if I’ve already had the flu say last year, I don’t go around trying to get the flu shot from last years flu strain, which I’ve already had. That’s why they make updated ones every year. Unfortunately, though, this virus mutates so fast ba.5 and the new strain out of india may have even mutated out of the original omicron which the booster shot is to be based on.

too bad. At least it makes the mandate fights less bad when the boosters are ready.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Hey we agree on something…look at that
> 
> just like if I want to avoid the flu, particularly if I’ve already had the flu say last year, I don’t go around trying to get the flu shot from last years flu strain, which I’ve already had. That’s why they make updated ones every year. Unfortunately, though, this virus mutates so fast ba.5 and the new strain out of india may have even mutated out of the original omicron which the booster shot is to be based on.
> 
> too bad. At least it makes the mandate fights less bad when the boosters are ready.


It's being coined, "The month to month virus." Basically, if you took all the jabs, this one mutates on a monthly bases. Yikes!


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Hey we agree on something…look at that
> 
> just like if I want to avoid the flu, particularly if I’ve already had the flu say last year, I don’t go around trying to get the flu shot from last years flu strain, which I’ve already had. That’s why they make updated ones every year. Unfortunately, though, this virus mutates so fast ba.5 and the new strain out of india may have even mutated out of the original omicron which the booster shot is to be based on.
> 
> too bad. At least it makes the mandate fights less bad when the boosters are ready.


I wonder whether the virus mutates fast, or we simply have an enormous number of copies in circulation.  

In any case, any new booster will be an improvement.  It won’t be the new variant that’s going to be detected in August, but it is likely to be a closer relative.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> *In any case, any new booster will be an improvement*.


False and dangerous advice sir.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Opinion piece disguised as a news article.
> 
> I got as far as "Fauci flip-flopped again.".
> 
> Some of the opinions I agree with, but the facts in that article are few and far between.


It's opinion just like the CDC and Fauci guidance.  No difference, don't be fooled by the initials or the academic titles.  Is it influenced by pharma? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but with the CDC's and FDA's recommendation of 0-4 vaccinations I'm beginning to wonder.  I personally think that guidance is malpractice.

Unfortunately the sources for the article have to be anonymous because they will be ostracized by the scientific community.  That community doesn't take kindly to any differentiation from so-called consensus.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *I'm not a conspiracy theorist,* but with the CDC's and FDA's recommendation of 0-4 vaccinations *I'm beginning to wonder.  *


*Yet!  I love you watty and you are close. They call me dumb dumb for a reason. They call me loser, medication taker, Coo Coo, Fool, stupid, moron, whacho bird and so many others kind words. I take it all in and wear at on my heart as a badge of honor. Your dealing with people who have been bought at best and blackmailed at worse. *


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> It's opinion just like the CDC and Fauci guidance.  No difference, don't be fooled by the initials or the academic titles.  Is it influenced by pharma? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but with the CDC's and FDA's recommendation of 0-4 vaccinations I'm beginning to wonder.  I personally think that guidance is malpractice.
> 
> Unfortunately the sources for the article have to be anonymous because they will be ostracized by the scientific community.  That community doesn't take kindly to any differentiation from so-called consensus.


Just FYI, in the first month of 0-4 vaccine availability only 1.5% of this population has been vaccinated.  We're still only at 30% for 5-11 vaccinations.  The public seems to understand the cost benefit far better than our government health agencies do.

Just FYI when a study is posted that one side doesn't like often the comment is "its not peer reviewed".  Did you know the results from the Pfizer and Moderna study for 0-4 vaxes was considered preliminary and not peer reviewed and yet the FDA still approved its use.   That doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Just FYI, in the first month of 0-4 vaccine availability only 1.5% of this population has been vaccinated.  We're still only at 30% for 5-11 vaccinations.  The public seems to understand the cost benefit far better than our government health agencies do.
> 
> Just FYI when a study is posted that one side doesn't like often the comment is "its not peer reviewed".  Did you know the results from the Pfizer and Moderna study for 0-4 vaxes was considered preliminary and not peer reviewed and yet the FDA still approved its use.   That doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Just FYI, in the first month of 0-4 vaccine availability only 1.5% of this population has been vaccinated.  We're still only at 30% for 5-11 vaccinations.  The public seems to understand the cost benefit far better than our government health agencies do.
> 
> Just FYI when a study is posted that one side doesn't like often the comment is "its not peer reviewed".  Did you know the results from the Pfizer and Moderna study for 0-4 vaxes was considered preliminary and not peer reviewed and yet the FDA still approved its use.   That doesn't pass the smell test.


Here are some more details about the safety profiles for each one: 

*Pfizer vaccine: *Pfizer enrolled 4,500 children in its clinical trials. For those ages 5 and under, 1,678 children received two doses three weeks apart and then a third dose at least two months after the second dose. The vaccine was well tolerated and there were no new safety issues signaled; the majority of side effects were mild or moderate. 

*Moderna vaccine: *The company enrolled approximately 11,700 children ages 6 months to 12 years in their studies, including 6,700 under 6 years old. All children received two doses of the vaccine, 28 days apart. According to data from the company, the majority of side effects (for the group under 6 years of age) were mild or moderate and mostly reported after the second dose. No new safety concerns were identified. 

With both vaccines, there were no cases of myocarditis or pericarditis, conditions that involve inflammation of the heart muscle and surrounding tissue. These conditions are known, but rare, risks for young men who receive the Moderna or Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine. 









						COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
					

Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.




					www.yalemedicine.org


----------



## crush

espola said:


> With both vaccines, there were no cases of myocarditis or pericarditis, conditions that involve inflammation of the heart muscle and surrounding tissue. These conditions are known, but rare, risks for young men who receive the Moderna or Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org


Yet!


----------



## Happened again

.


espola said:


> Here are some more details about the safety profiles for each one:
> 
> *Pfizer vaccine: *Pfizer enrolled 4,500 children in its clinical trials. For those ages 5 and under, 1,678 children received two doses three weeks apart and then a third dose at least two months after the second dose. The vaccine was well tolerated and there were no new safety issues signaled; the majority of side effects were mild or moderate.
> 
> *Moderna vaccine: *The company enrolled approximately 11,700 children ages 6 months to 12 years in their studies, including 6,700 under 6 years old. All children received two doses of the vaccine, 28 days apart. According to data from the company, t*he majority of side effects (for the group under 6 years of age) were mild or moderate and mostly reported after the second dose*. No new safety concerns were identified.
> 
> With both vaccines, there were no cases of myocarditis or pericarditis, conditions that involve inflammation of the heart muscle and surrounding tissue. These conditions are known, but rare, risks for young men who receive the Moderna or Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org


you just don't get it.  Answer this mr linky: Why exactly are we doing trials when these same trials aren't showing clinical benefits in ulittles - babies and toddlers.  no statistical significance yet the FDA/CDC still authorizes a vaccine?  Craziness and so sciency.  

Look at it this this way, most drugs/vaccines are dangerous.  Within that same scope, most drugs on the market have benefits that outweight the risk (listen to the calm backbground voice in pharma commericals).  In this case this vaccine does NOTHING but has statistically significant risks of side effects.  CDC/FDA approvals for drugs are normally predicated on benefit outweighting risk.  There is obvously no benefits so one wonders why it was approved.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> .
> 
> you just don't get it.  Answer this mr linky: Why exactly are we doing trials when these same trials aren't showing clinical benefits in ulittles - babies and toddlers.  no statistical significance yet the FDA/CDC still authorizes a vaccine?  Craziness and so sciency.
> 
> Look at it this this way, most drugs/vaccines are dangerous.  Within that same scope, most drugs on the market have benefits that outweight the risk (listen to the calm backbground voice in pharma commericals).  In this case this vaccine does NOTHING but has statistically significant risks of side effects.  CDC/FDA approvals for drugs are normally predicated on benefit outweighting risk.  There is obvously no benefits so one wonders why it was approved.


One wonders?  

Please continue.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> One wonders?
> 
> Please continue.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Here are some more details about the safety profiles for each one:
> 
> *Pfizer vaccine: *Pfizer enrolled 4,500 children in its clinical trials. For those ages 5 and under, 1,678 children received two doses three weeks apart and then a third dose at least two months after the second dose. The vaccine was well tolerated and there were no new safety issues signaled; the majority of side effects were mild or moderate.
> 
> *Moderna vaccine: *The company enrolled approximately 11,700 children ages 6 months to 12 years in their studies, including 6,700 under 6 years old. All children received two doses of the vaccine, 28 days apart. According to data from the company, the majority of side effects (for the group under 6 years of age) were mild or moderate and mostly reported after the second dose. No new safety concerns were identified.
> 
> With both vaccines, there were no cases of myocarditis or pericarditis, conditions that involve inflammation of the heart muscle and surrounding tissue. These conditions are known, but rare, risks for young men who receive the Moderna or Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org


So your OK that it is not peer reviewed and its being used for government recommended guidance?  When did you change your stance on it was OK for things not to be peer reviewed?

Seems like when you solely rely on the manufacturer's study that its a lot like the fox guarding the hen house.


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

watfly said:


> So your OK that it is not peer reviewed and its being used for government recommended guidance?  When did you change your stance on it was OK for things not to be peer reviewed?
> 
> Seems like when you solely rely on the manufacturer's study that its a lot like the fox guarding the hen house.


Seems like you are quite often wrong.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's opinion just like the CDC and Fauci guidance.  No difference, don't be fooled by the initials or the academic titles.  Is it influenced by pharma? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but with the CDC's and FDA's recommendation of 0-4 vaccinations I'm beginning to wonder.  I personally think that guidance is malpractice.
> 
> Unfortunately the sources for the article have to be anonymous because they will be ostracized by the scientific community.  That community doesn't take kindly to any differentiation from so-called consensus.


I think it’s opinion just like @Crush’s memes.

I don't know enough about youth vaccines to make dramatic statements like "malpractice".  The standard for childhood vaccines is different now.  My dad went to a measles party.  My son got vaccinated against chicken pox.  

We know more about vaccines and disease transmission than we did back then.  This makes it possible to consider vaccination for milder conditions.  

The youth covid vaccine decision clearly was comparing some small probabilities, but I'm in no spot to stand on a soapbox and say they're doing it all wrong.  Or right.

If anything, all I can do is hope the eggheads get it right, because public and political opinion have had a heavy dose of denialism throughout the pandemic.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So your OK that it is not peer reviewed and its being used for government recommended guidance?  When did you change your stance on it was OK for things not to be peer reviewed?
> 
> Seems like when you solely rely on the manufacturer's study that its a lot like the fox guarding the hen house.


Remember, all you really know is that some conservative talking head told you that it isn't peer reviewed.

That's different from seeing an editorial in Lancet asking for data to be released.  

My understanding is that the data is all public, and that it gets thoroughly discussed by people who can understand it.  (Meaning: not us.)  

By now, you have thousands of scientists who read the biontech 0-4 data, just because they were curious.   If you think there might be red flags, find out what they're saying.  It just won't be in the Daily Mail.


----------



## crush

Get your new Dad4 mask while supplies last.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I think it’s opinion just like @Crush’s memes.
> 
> I don't know enough about youth vaccines to make dramatic statements like "malpractice".  The standard for childhood vaccines is different now.  My dad went to a measles party.  My son got vaccinated against chicken pox.
> 
> We know more about vaccines and disease transmission than we did back then.  This makes it possible to consider vaccination for milder conditions.
> 
> The youth covid vaccine decision clearly was comparing some small probabilities, but I'm in no spot to stand on a soapbox and say they're doing it all wrong.  Or right.
> 
> If anything, all I can do is hope the eggheads get it right, because public and political opinion have had a heavy dose of denialism throughout the pandemic.


Easy-to-understand denialism sells better than having to grind through boring facts.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Easy-to-understand denialism sells better than having to grind through boring facts.


Meme hurt your feelings?  Look man, your time is short so hurry up and finish your closing statement.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Just FYI, in the first month of 0-4 vaccine availability only 1.5% of this population has been vaccinated.  We're still only at 30% for 5-11 vaccinations.  The public seems to understand the cost benefit far better than our government health agencies do.
> 
> Just FYI when a study is posted that one side doesn't like often the comment is "its not peer reviewed".  Did you know the results from the Pfizer and Moderna study for 0-4 vaxes was considered preliminary and not peer reviewed and yet the FDA still approved its use.   That doesn't pass the smell test.


Clinical trails are evaluated within agencies and the results are made available to the public.  There are search engines to find them.  They are not considered a journal publication per se; there is not publisher, there is no paywall, you don't find them on preprint servers..  Most of the time clinical trails will not generate the type of findings that are of interest to the broader scientific community; they are just descriptive. Sometimes the results of clinical trails, if basic scientific information or new technological progress, comes out of them they are submitted for publication.   In that case they are evaluated will be evaluated through the traditional academic peer review process.  But that is in addition to, not in lieu of, regulatory review.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> View attachment 14326


I like this one.  Probably actually homemade, not out of St. Petersburg.  This is the look my cat gives me when I catch it licking itself.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I like this one.  Probably actually homemade, not out of St. Petersburg.  This is the look my cat gives me when I catch it licking itself.


I got talked into taking in a Bengal Cat that is half wild and half domestic. His name is Ra. Dude actually fitches toy mouse and brings it back for more like a dog, no joke. If you don't play with this cat, it will attack you. My arms have scratches and bite marks everywhere. He's my best pal as work from home and I learned how to keep him busy.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> I got talked into taking in a Bengal Cat that is half wild and half domestic. His name is Ra. Dude actually fitches toy mouse and brings it back for more like a dog, no joke. If you don't play with this cat, it will attack you. My arms have scratches and bite marks everywhere. He's my best pal as work from home and I learned how to keep him busy.
> 
> View attachment 14334


Cute cat.  But it does seem to have a bit of the "I'd really like to kick your butt" thing going on.  Our cats are all strays from around the neighborhood that I live trap so the coyotes don't get them.  Kids talk me into it.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Cute cat.  But it does seem to have a bit of the "I'd really like to kick your butt" thing going on.  Our cats are all strays from around the neighborhood that I live trap so the coyotes don't get them.  Kids talk me into it.


Now that is very cool. I lived in Fullerton for a few years and had ally cats behind us. I also had two boxers that would chase them all the time. Never caught one but did cause one of the cats to climb a tree and then feel down after the cat was scared do death and had a heart attack. No joke.


----------



## crush

*Last me me moo of the day. Have a great day you guys. Today is all we got, live as if it's your last day. Tomorrow is never promised and yesterday is over. God Bless you all and God Bless America!*


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Remember, all you really know is that some conservative talking head told you that it isn't peer reviewed.


Again weak effort trying to defeat my claim by saying a got it from a conservative talking ahead,  Again without mischaracterizing my argument you have no argument.  Has that not crossed your mind?  Dad4 it is really becoming sad, I thought you were better than that, but your drunk on the so-called expert kool aid.  You seem to have drifted into Espola's neighborhood.  I do my own research and take issue on a case-by-case basis, I'm not a prisoner of a narrative.

According to Yale medicine, which is far from a conservative talking head:

_Although the results are preliminary and have not yet been peer-reviewed or published in academic journals, the data was reviewed by the FDA and a committee of independent vaccine experts. _









						COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
					

Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.




					www.yalemedicine.org


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Again weak effort trying to defeat my claim by saying a got it from a conservative talking ahead,  Again without mischaracterizing my argument you have no argument.  Has that not crossed your mind?  Dad4 it is really becoming sad, I thought you were better than that, but your drunk on the so-called expert kool aid.  You seem to have drifted into Espola's neighborhood.  I do my own research and take issue on a case-by-case basis, I'm not a prisoner of a narrative.
> 
> According to Yale medicine, which is far from a conservative talking head:
> 
> _Although the results are preliminary and have not yet been peer-reviewed or published in academic journals, the data was reviewed by the FDA and a committee of independent vaccine experts. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids Under 5: What Parents Need To Know
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine physicians discuss the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines for children under age 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org


Picking cherries from the same article that I quoted above.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Clinical trails are evaluated within agencies and the results are made available to the public.  There are search engines to find them.  They are not considered a journal publication per se; there is not publisher, there is no paywall, you don't find them on preprint servers..  Most of the time clinical trails will not generate the type of findings that are of interest to the broader scientific community; they are just descriptive. Sometimes the results of clinical trails, if basic scientific information or new technological progress, comes out of them they are submitted for publication.   In that case they are evaluated will be evaluated through the traditional academic peer review process.  But that is in addition to, not in lieu of, regulatory review.


I understand that, IMO this response just sounds like a giant rationalization.  How'd that work out for the J&J vaccine?  I'm a "proof is in the pudding", "show me, not tell me", "real world over academic world" etc.  I'm a business guy and your a science guy (I think), so we're often not going to have the same perspective.   Pluses and minuses to both perspectives I guess.  I'll use my "compelling" argument again.  I don't think the vaccines are effective enough to justify them being mandated and having people lose their jobs.  The results in the real world have proven that unequivocally as the virus has spread unabated among the unvaccinated.

For children, the equation is a little different.  Healthy children have less than miniscule risk from serious consequences from the virus.  However, long term consequences, if any, are unknown from this virus in the U12 age group, as are the long term consequences, if any, of the vaccine.  This is not lost on parents based on the fact that 5-12 is only 30% vaccinated and 6mo-4 is only 1 1/2%.   This "appeal to authority" is not as strong with the general public as it is with academic types.  It has become significantly less strong the last 2 years due to the lack of credibility we seen from the experts.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I understand that, IMO this response just sounds like a giant rationalization.  How'd that work out for the J&J vaccine?  I'm a "proof is in the pudding", "show me, not tell me", "real world over academic world" etc.  I'm a business guy and your a science guy (I think), so we're often not going to have the same perspective.   Pluses and minuses to both perspectives I guess.  I'll use my "compelling" argument again.  I don't think the vaccines are effective enough to justify them being mandated and having people lose their jobs.  The results in the real world have proven that unequivocally as the virus has spread unabated among the unvaccinated.
> 
> For children, the equation is a little different.  Healthy children have less than miniscule risk from serious consequences from the virus.  However, long term consequences, if any, are unknown from this virus in the U12 age group, as are the long term consequences, if any, of the vaccine.  This is not lost on parents based on the fact that 5-12 is only 30% vaccinated and 6mo-4 is only 1 1/2%.   This "appeal to authority" is not as strong with the general public as it is with academic types.  It has become significantly less strong the last 2 years due to the lack of credibility we seen from the experts.


I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  Like you said, you have your rationalization and your sense of risk assessment.  I have mine. They are different.  That's fine.  What I was responding to was the thing about peer review for clinical trials.  That's not the way it works, so it's not a valid point. That's the only thing. The rest is you.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  Like you said, you have your rationalization and your sense of risk assessment.  I have mine. They are different.  That's fine.  What I was responding to was the thing about peer review for clinical trials.  That's not the way it works, so it's not a valid point. That's the only thing. The rest is you.


Thanks.  If that's the case it sounds like peer review should be added to the process, it might restore some pulbic faith in FDA decisions and CDC recommendations.  They certainly need to restore their credibility.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I understand that, IMO this response just sounds like a giant rationalization.  How'd that work out for the J&J vaccine?  I'm a "proof is in the pudding", "show me, not tell me", "real world over academic world" etc.  I'm a business guy and your a science guy (I think), so we're often not going to have the same perspective.   Pluses and minuses to both perspectives I guess.  I'll use my "compelling" argument again.  I don't think the vaccines are effective enough to justify them being mandated and having people lose their jobs.  The results in the real world have proven that unequivocally as the virus has spread unabated among the unvaccinated.
> 
> For children, the equation is a little different.  Healthy children have less than miniscule risk from serious consequences from the virus.  However, long term consequences, if any, are unknown from this virus in the U12 age group, as are the long term consequences, if any, of the vaccine.  This is not lost on parents based on the fact that 5-12 is only 30% vaccinated and 6mo-4 is only 1 1/2%.   This "appeal to authority" is not as strong with the general public as it is with academic types.  It has become significantly less strong the last 2 years due to the lack of credibility we seen from the experts.


How would you quantify "less than miniscule"?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Thanks.  If that's the case it sounds like peer review should be added to the process, it might restore some pulbic faith in FDA decisions and CDC recommendations.  They certainly need to restore their credibility.


Would you feel compelled then?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Thanks.  If that's the case it sounds like peer review should be added to the process, it might restore some public faith in FDA decisions and CDC recommendations.  They certainly need to restore their credibility.


Peer review generally works, but can be hit and miss.  The public should not assume that peer review necessarily means all the data elements and underlying statistics have  been gone through with a fine tooth comb.  Evaluators will have different backgrouds, expertises, amount of time to attend to it, etc. Basically it is not their job to make sure it's right, it is a service item.  In many cases they may only look for obvious flaws, crap interpretations, etc.  And some journals are better than others; with a few exceptions (Nature, Science) the public is unlikely to know which is which.  Some journals even let you specify who you want to review the paper.  Also, the underlying data for some vaccine clinical trials does get submitted for peer review given the current interest in vaccine development. The thing is that in the info wars "peer review" is largely being appended as a value metaphor to influence perception rather than a term with specific meaning.  It's in there with "herd immunity", "immune escape", etc.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Just FYI, in the first month of 0-4 vaccine availability only 1.5% of this population has been vaccinated.  We're still only at 30% for 5-11 vaccinations.  The public seems to understand the cost benefit far better than our government health agencies do.
> 
> Just FYI when a study is posted that one side doesn't like often the comment is "its not peer reviewed".  Did you know the results from the Pfizer and Moderna study for 0-4 vaxes was considered preliminary and not peer reviewed and yet the FDA still approved its use.   That doesn't pass the smell test.


Post a link to your claim of inadequate review.

So far, your only reputable link is the Yale one, and it does not appear to say what you are saying.  My first impression is that the review system used by FDA is different from the review system used by NEJM.  That makes sense.  One makes actual medical policy, and the other does not.  Their systems ought to be different.  But it’s no scandal.  It’s just a statement that organization A uses a different structure than organization B.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Post a link to your claim of inadequate review.
> 
> So far, your only reputable link is the Yale one, and it does not appear to say what you are saying.  My first impression is that the review system used by FDA is different from the review system used by NEJM.  That makes sense.  One makes actual medical policy, and the other does not.  Their systems ought to be different.  But it’s no scandal.  It’s just a statement that organization A uses a different structure than organization B.


Agreed. Academic review is not a good mechanism for vetting vaccines, drugs, stuff like that.  Regulatory agencies need to vested with regulatory authority, ultimately placed under the oversight of elected officials.    

The rejoinder, of course, will be that those agencies have lost the confidence of a segment of the public. Other than battling for plastic junior high debate trophies, that it perhaps the central theme of the thread as far as I can tell.  A spectrum of reasons has been presented and will no doubt be cycled through again, ranging from reasonable objections to evil cabals and the lizard people.  There has also been an unprecedented information attack, with one side fighting with the tools of modern disinformation and one side just sort of taking it. All that filters down. The whole point is to shade perception.  A legitimate question being asked is how fixable it is.  I have no idea and probably neither does anybody else.  But the people that make the recommendations to decision makers are already bringing in political scientists, pandemic psychologists, other voices that are not from a purely epidemiological standpoint.  Basically, there will be stratified human elements incorporated into the modelling.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> One wonders?
> 
> Please continue.


you hit it out of the park.  nice job.


----------



## Happened again

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Agreed. Academic review is not a good mechanism for vetting vaccines, drugs, stuff like that.  Regulatory agencies need to vested with regulatory authority, ultimately placed under the oversight of elected officials.
> 
> The rejoinder, of course, will be that those agencies have lost the confidence of a segment of the public. Other than battling for plastic junior high debate trophies, that it perhaps the central theme of the thread as far as I can tell.  A spectrum of reasons has been presented and will no doubt be cycled through again, ranging from reasonable objections to evil cabals and the lizard people.  There has also been an unprecedented information attack, with one side fighting with the tools of modern disinformation and one side just sort of taking it. All that filters down. The whole point is to shade perception.  A legitimate question being asked is how fixable it is.  I have no idea and probably neither does anybody else.  But the people that make the recommendations to decision makers are already bringing in political scientists, pandemic psychologists, other voices that are not from a purely epidemiological standpoint.  Basically, there will be stratified human elements incorporated into the modelling.


plenty of dollars available to try and make processes legit by hiring people with pedigrees- happens in so many industries.  Pharma and oil/gas are pretty adept at it.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Happened again said:


> plenty of dollars available to try and make processes legit by hiring people with pedigrees- happens in so many industries.  Pharma and oil/gas are pretty adept at it.


For the people I'm referring to, the pay is OK.  It's a government job. Many of them could easily make more in the private sector. They will be highly trained. Many, but not all of course, are going to be very good at what they do. I wondered for awhile why the disinformation campaigns didn't go after these people, the actual science class, systematically.  Doxx and hound them instead of going after political "squirrels" like Fauci.  It would be easy to do and I'm pretty sure you could bring the whole regulatory process down pretty quickly that way.  It seems that is not the objective, however.  I read where the best way to deligitimize institutions are to tether them to a few public figures, then paint those targets with undesirable human traits, incompetence, corruption.  Transference does the rest. Then keep sowing the field and see what grows of its own accord.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Opinion piece disguised as a news article.
> 
> I got as far as "Fauci flip-flopped again.".
> 
> Some of the opinions I agree with, but the facts in that article are few and far between.


Is that not a factual statement?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Is that not a factual statement?


Some people don't like others talking about their mom, some don't like others talking about Fauci ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Is that not a factual statement?


 News reporters tell us who changed their position on something.  Editorial writers describe it as a flip flop.

It matters because, if I read an article about something, I learn more if it covers the whole topic.

What is the point of finding the angriest two or three people at an agency and choosing four anonymous quotes which suit a pre-established narrative?


----------



## crush

*Biden COVID czar, Dr. Ashish Jha voices support for LA bringing back indoor mask mandate*

*"My view* on this has been very clear, which is local jurisdictions, cities, counties, states should make decisions about mask mandates because communities are different and their patterns of transmission are different," Jha explained.  

Jha said that it's "really important to *remind people of the science*, the public health science and the public health science is very clear."


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> What is the point of finding the angriest two or three people at an agency and choosing four anonymous quotes which suit a pre-established narrative?


Hilarious. As if any of the major media outlets don't have a pre-established narrative on this. The question we should ask is, are the facts correct? Are the CDC and NIH seeing an unusual loss of employees? The rest of it falls under investigative journalism. Other outlets with different pre-established narratives will not be interested in this story because their narratives will not be supported.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hilarious. As if any of the major media outlets don't have a pre-established narrative on this. The question we should ask is, are the facts correct? Are the CDC and NIH seeing an unusual loss of employees? The rest of it falls under investigative journalism. Other outlets with different pre-established narratives will not be interested in this story because their narratives will not be supported.


And, when the NYT ran articles that underplayed the link between covid and obesity, I was willing to say so.

Can you say the same?  Did you point out the faults in your preferred narrative?  Or are you purely a member of the cheer squad?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> And, when the NYT ran articles that underplayed the link between covid and obesity, I was willing to say so.
> 
> Can you say the same?  Did you point out the faults in your preferred narrative?  Or are you purely a member of the cheer squad?


I'm not making a judgment on the article. It's information, and I understand the source. If the facts are correct, it's significant. Are you aware of any facts that got wrong? That would be useful to me. That you are butt-hurt because they disrespected Fauci doesn't move me.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hilarious. As if any of the major media outlets don't have a pre-established narrative on this. The question we should ask is, are the facts correct? Are the CDC and NIH seeing an unusual loss of employees? The rest of it falls under investigative journalism. Other outlets with different pre-established narratives will not be interested in this story because their narratives will not be supported.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> News reporters tell us who changed their position on something.  Editorial writers describe it as a flip flop.
> 
> It matters because, if I read an article about something, I learn more if it covers the whole topic.
> 
> What is the point of finding the angriest two or three people at an agency and choosing four anonymous quotes which suit a pre-established narrative?


He is on record flip flopping.  You just refuse to see it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He is on record flip flopping.  You just refuse to see it.


It was for our own good, kicker. That's all that matters.


----------



## Happened again

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the people I'm referring to, the pay is OK.  It's a government job. Many of them could easily make more in the private sector. They will be highly trained. Many, but not all of course, are going to be very good at what they do. I wondered for awhile why the disinformation campaigns didn't go after these people, the actual science class, systematically.  Doxx and hound them instead of going after political "squirrels" like Fauci.  It would be easy to do and I'm pretty sure you could bring the whole regulatory process down pretty quickly that way.  It seems that is not the objective, however.  I read where the best way to deligitimize institutions are to tether them to a few public figures, then paint those targets with undesirable human traits, incompetence, corruption.  Transference does the rest. Then keep sowing the field and see what grows of its own accord.


More $$$$ certainly to be made in the private sector.  Selling your expertise to the highest bidder is a daily occurence for former government employees.  Some stay for the guaranteed paycheck and great retirement, others aren't satisified with their plush lifestyle and choose to pursue more plush.  

Imagine working for the the FDA then going to the private sector.  Happens all the time.  The lines are kept blurred for a reason.  Ambiguity, fake outrage and fake sympathy make the behind the scenes folks quite healthy.  Sure, there is good science out there, but plenty of science for the sake of  profit as well.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> It was for our own good, kicker. That's all that matters.


Did you want our national health policy to remain fixed as we got new evidence?   Or did you want us to open things up as soon as we recognize which activities are lower risk?

If anything, your complaint is that we flip flopped too little, not too much.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Did you want our national health policy to remain fixed as we got new evidence?   Or did you want us to open things up as soon as we recognize which activities are lower risk?
> 
> If anything, your complaint is that we flip flopped too little, not too much.


If he flip flopped on issues based on new evidence, that’s one thing, however it isn’t applicable in this discussion.  

If that were the case we would have seen more targeted approach. 

B+ for effort


----------



## crush

At least this time you can see the Monkeypox. Does this guy have to wear a mask?



*New York City is Now the “Epicenter of the Monkeypox Outbreak” Which Accounts For 30% of All US Cases*

I tell my  pals all the time to watch NYC and LA for their next move. I hope my fence sittings pals get off the fence and take a stand this time. Sorry guys, were not going back to normal.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Happened again said:


> More $$$$ ....The lines are kept blurred for a reason.  Ambiguity, fake outrage and fake sympathy make the behind the scenes folks quite healthy.  Sure, there is good science out there, but plenty of science for the sake of  profit as well.


It's worth remembering that up until the mid-1980's much of the public interest in product testing, toxicity, etc was performed directly in government labs. The zeitgeist became that the private sector could perform these tasks more efficiently because....bureacracy is bad, profit motive is good, etc.  Good things and bad things accompanied that.  The system moves faster, but the entities generating the relevant data have a vested interest in the outcome.  It lends itself to a revolving door situation between the regulators and the regulated.  Boost the $ involved by two, three orders of magnitude and the same issues attend financial regulation.  Its sort of funny to hear people complain about it because we wanted it this way.

With the exception of a few really well paid positions, our political disfunctionality (your ambiguity, fake outrage, etc) is precisely what drives many of the people that are actually doing the science away.  It is high burnout.  These people do OK, but its definitely not cushy and they are not exactly raking it in. For example, people here today are talking about some news thing hit piece with disgruntled government-type workers complaining about the overlords.  The same thing happened, for example, in the EPA during the previous administration.  People leave. Most media outlets do a quick "lunchcounter I'm so angry" type piece.  Then the clicks move on. There are only a few reporters out there with the breath of knowledge to keep checking the pulse of these institutions and see what damage has accrued.


----------



## crush

Ding Ding Ding!!! They ((______________________)) don't want the population to grow.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Did you want our national health policy to remain fixed as we got new evidence?   Or did you want us to open things up as soon as we recognize which activities are lower risk?
> 
> If anything, your complaint is that we flip flopped too little, not too much.


Let's step back a second. The statement about the Fauci "flip-flop" was not an important part of the article in terms of claims. It does give insight into the perspective of the individual writing it, though. The important parts of the article were the claims that the NIH and CDC were losing employees, and some employees left due to the agencies putting politics above science or putting forth "bad" science (paraphrasing).

If you believe mask policy works, you bring it out when you need it. My problem with Fauci is that he intentionally misled people when at the beginning of the pandemic stating that masks are not helpful only because he was afraid everyone would buy up masks and front-line workers. It's funny because I went back and read the stories now, and the common rationalization is, "This was also early in the pandemic before public health experts fully knew how contagious the disease was and how it spread." This is total f'ing BS. In science, you don't make a claim if you don't have enough information. Are they telling us they learned that this is the first virus ever that masks would have helped, or, that they actually believed the Chinese government that the virus was not aerosolized? It makes no sense considering how epidemiologists err on the side of playing it safe w.r.t. viruses (no surfing, remember?). The appropriate response should have been, "We don't know if they help, but they might. Wear one to be safe." Or possibly, "We don't know if they help, but we have front-line workers that need to wear masks, and we are having a shortage, so hold off on buying masks now." I know, I know, you can't trust people to do the right thing when you say the second one, right? If that's the case, don't consider a mandate because you must trust people to perform it for it to work.


----------



## crush

*BREAKING: Reddit has banned the word “groomer”.*


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Did you want our national health policy to remain fixed as we got new evidence?   Or did you want us to open things up as soon as we recognize which activities are lower risk?
> 
> If anything, your complaint is that we flip flopped too little, not too much.


Seeing one’s own hypocrisy is the first step.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seeing one’s own hypocrisy is the first step.


Waiting for your first step...


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> *Did you want our national health policy to remain fixed as we got new evidence?   Or did you want us to open things up as soon as we recognize which activities are lower risk?*
> 
> If anything, your complaint is that we flip flopped too little, not too much.


What do you mean?  What national health policy?  Like from the CDC?  Their national health policy?  

I suppose you could lash in the FDA with the CDC.  Great rule and policy followers that they are.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seeing one’s own hypocrisy is the first step.


Question becomes "first step to what"? 

Apropos of nothing but I always kind of thought the whole thing about Walden and Thoreau was that if you weren't willing to risk being a hypocrite you weren't willing to put it on the line.  Mama at the pencil factory coming home and washing your clothes. Jonesing drinks off friends at the bar. "The railroad rides on us"...

Apropos of nothing but I like fixing up bikes and I'm fixing up a 30 yr old MTB frame for my kid to take to college. Best I could afford at the time. Got them to throw in a rack for free as I recall.  Toured Yellowstone on it in WY, rode it over Trail Ridge Road in CO, hauled kids in a bike cart all over the place in CA.  But it's old, like me, so if it gets ripped off no big deal. We've got a mile long 10% grade by our house and after it dropped below 90 tonight my kid is spinning up it at about 80 rpm and 10 mph and the bike is not even dialed in for him.  Have to make some adjustments. I'm behind him on my ebike thinking he's starting to get muscled in his back and wouldn't it be great to be 18 again. We played it safe and everybody I care about is still alive.  Lucky. A few close calls.

"Name me someone who's not a parasite and I'll go out and say a prayer for him". Dylan wrote that song when he was like-what-24.  Is that the right age to write a song like that or is it precocious?  Something like Cov-2 hits and if its your f'ing job you fight with what is in your quiver at the time.  Science is slow and will come along later. All of us adjudicating this after the fact-me included-need to image speaking to a room full of MIS-C parents.  "Thank you for inviting me here today.  Let me tell you why I'm so angry".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Question becomes "first step to what"?
> 
> Apropos of nothing but I always kind of thought the whole thing about Walden and Thoreau was that if you weren't willing to risk being a hypocrite you weren't willing to put it on the line.  Mama at the pencil factory coming home and washing your clothes. Jonesing drinks off friends at the bar. "The railroad rides on us"...
> 
> Apropos of nothing but I like fixing up bikes and I'm fixing up a 30 yr old MTB frame for my kid to take to college. Best I could afford at the time. Got them to throw in a rack for free as I recall.  Toured Yellowstone on it in WY, rode it over Trail Ridge Road in CO, hauled kids in a bike cart all over the place in CA.  But it's old, like me, so if it gets ripped off no big deal. We've got a mile long 10% grade by our house and after it dropped below 90 tonight my kid is spinning up it at about 80 rpm and 10 mph and the bike is not even dialed in for him.  Have to make some adjustments. I'm behind him on my ebike thinking he's starting to get muscled in his back and wouldn't it be great to be 18 again. We played it safe and everybody I care about is still alive.  Lucky. A few close calls.
> 
> "Name me someone who's not a parasite and I'll go out and say a prayer for him". Dylan wrote that song when he was like-what-24.  Is that the right age to write a song like that or is it precocious?  Something like Cov-2 hits and if its your f'ing job you fight with what is in your quiver at the time.  Science is slow and will come along later. All of us adjudicating this after the fact-me included-need to image speaking to a room full of MIS-C parents.  "Thank you for inviting me here today.  Let me tell you why I'm so angry".


First step towards recovery and hopefully inner peace.


----------



## crush

28 year old contact tracer worker who was found dead in his apartment in LA, died from heart failure. RIP sir


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Ding Ding Ding!!! They ((______________________)) don't want the population to grow.
> 
> View attachment 14341


Which begs the question, how does this impact fertility?   This issue has been known for over a year and was initially dismissed by so-called experts.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

How many of these discussions veer in another direction due to not following this bit of wisdom?

"Seek first to understand, then be understood."

It invariably veers in a direction that allows the "misunderstander" to make a point. Some of it is simply a sincere mistake in understanding due to perspective and/or an attempt to interpret ambiguous wording, but not all of it.


----------



## watfly

One thing that I find fascinating about this thread is the amount of caveats, rationalizations and mental gymnastics required by sciency types to justify the guidance of science.  Science apparently needs to issue secret decoder rings to the public so we can understand what science "experts" mean when they say things like the vaccine will prevent the spread of infection.  

I have serious concern that science is going down the same road as journalism.  Science is just a process, not fact as some would lead you to believe, but many practitioners (particularly those in govt) are abusing or ignoring the process.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the science community tends to circle the wagons when anyone questions the consensus. All this has lead to a giant credibility gap with the public which is no more clearly illustrated with the low number of parents that are vaccinating their children.

The science community needs to do a serious self evaluation based on the last couple of years.   Some new, best practices are in order.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> One thing that I find fascinating about this thread is the amount of caveats, rationalizations and mental gymnastics required by sciency types to justify the guidance of science.  Science apparently needs to issue secret decoder rings to the public so we can understand what science "experts" mean when they say things like the vaccine will prevent the spread of infection.
> 
> I have serious concern that science is going down the same road as journalism.  Science is just a process, not fact as some would lead you to believe, but many practitioners (particularly those in govt) are abusing or ignoring the process.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the science community tends to circle the wagons when anyone questions the consensus. All this has lead to a giant credibility gap with the public which is no more clearly illustrated with the low number of parents that are vaccinating their children.
> 
> The science community needs to do a serious self evaluation based on the last couple of years.   Some new, best practices are in order.


What color is the sky in your universe?


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Which begs the question, how does this impact fertility?   This issue has been known for over a year and was initially dismissed by so-called experts.


They want to defund the population bro. Trust me on this.  My wife has a friend with dd around 22. She wants Grand kids on her time and when her dd wants to have kiddos. Both are fully jabbed and 100% Pro-Choice and the dd has gone out and yelled for her rights and her body. Well, now she can;t get pregnant because and Grandma will never have grand child. I have stayed out of all the debates because I am emotional and some girls have a hard with me when I speak on the subject. I make them uncomfortable they say. She will never have to worry about that decision. I am sad because their really nice people but took the bait. Soul's are trying to come here to help and a certain group of people on the earth don't want them to come.  I know, it's hard to believe but you can take that to the bank.


----------



## crush

LIVE action Trailer for "The Plot Against The King" starring
					

Kash asked me to do a video for "The Plot Against The King'" Hope this is what he had in mind lol




					rumble.com


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> What color is the sky in your universe?


depends - such is science.  I mean, is the vaccine weirdly impacting women?  what does the science say?  better questions, what did the keepers of the  science not tell you?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> depends - such is science.  I mean, is the vaccine weirdly impacting women?  what does the science say?  better questions, what did the keepers of the  science not tell you?


Idiot.









						How COVID-19 (and the Vaccine) Can Impact Your Fertility
					

Getting vaccinated won’t impact your fertility, but getting the virus could. Here’s what to know.




					health.clevelandclinic.org


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> One thing that I find fascinating about this thread is the amount of caveats, rationalizations and mental gymnastics required by sciency types to justify the guidance of science.  Science apparently needs to issue secret decoder rings to the public so we can understand what science "experts" mean when they say things like the vaccine will prevent the spread of infection.
> 
> I have serious concern that science is going down the same road as journalism.  Science is just a process, not fact as some would lead you to believe, but many practitioners (particularly those in govt) are abusing or ignoring the process.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the science community tends to circle the wagons when anyone questions the consensus. All this has lead to a giant credibility gap with the public which is no more clearly illustrated with the low number of parents that are vaccinating their children.
> 
> The science community needs to do a serious self evaluation based on the last couple of years.   Some new, best practices are in order.


There is no secret decoder ring.  Science is just hard.  If you want easy, there are plenty of healing crystals and homeopathic remedies waiting for you.  

The science community doesn’t circle the wagons so much as ignore you.  They can run experiments and publish the results.  But, at the end of the day, there isn’t much they can do if you prefer to believe the latest twitter conspiracy theory. 

So, if you like, you can believe that masks do nothing, that bars and restaurants don’t spread covid, or that vaccines cause infertility.

You are also allowed to treat cancer by having a mystic realign your energy centers.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is no secret decoder ring.  Science is just hard.  If you want easy, there are plenty of healing crystals and homeopathic remedies waiting for you.
> 
> The science community doesn’t circle the wagons so much as ignore you.  They can run experiments and publish the results.  But, at the end of the day, there isn’t much they can do if you prefer to believe the latest twitter conspiracy theory.
> 
> So, if you like, you can believe that masks do nothing, that bars and restaurants don’t spread covid, or that vaccines cause infertility.
> 
> You are also allowed to treat cancer by having a mystic realign your energy centers.


Again I'm not basing it on any conspiracy theories, I'm basing it on actual results, but thanks again for the mischaracterization.  At least your consistent.

I'm 100% for vaccine by choice.  My objection is as to mandates and restricting movement based upon vaccine results that are only preliminary.   If we are going to mandate we need another level of review for FDA approvals and a public use for a certain time prior to mandating.  The vaccine is effectively experimental until is proven safe by mass public use.  If you choose to get vaccinated like I did based on FDA approval that's great, but to mandate it is not only poor health policy its wholly inappropriate.

Like I said masks, indoors in public places, annoying but big deal.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> One thing that I find fascinating about this thread is the amount of caveats, rationalizations and mental gymnastics required by sciency types to justify the guidance of science.  Science apparently needs to issue secret decoder rings to the public so we can understand what science "experts" mean when they say things like the vaccine will prevent the spread of infection.
> 
> I have serious concern that science is going down the same road as journalism.  Science is just a process, not fact as some would lead you to believe, but many practitioners (particularly those in govt) are abusing or ignoring the process.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the science community tends to circle the wagons when anyone questions the consensus. All this has lead to a giant credibility gap with the public which is no more clearly illustrated with the low number of parents that are vaccinating their children.
> 
> The science community needs to do a serious self evaluation based on the last couple of years.   Some new, best practices are in order.


My concern is the increasing trend to separate ourselves physically and socially from those who believe differently. More than ever, we appear to be willing to demean and dismiss those who disagree with us on a single point. We have already seen the split of journalism based on ideological bias. If what is happening at the CDC and NIH is true - people are leaving due to "bad science" - it only increases the chances of more "bad science". Diversity of thought is not desired or promoted. I'd guess (we'll see) that many who have moved from the heavily "blue" states - NY, CA, etc. - are the more moderate ones, further reducing the diversity of thought. And, as much as we want to think science is above biases, the problem is there is no science without people and people have biases. The Atlantic article below had some interesting points about why left-wing authoritarianism was missed. The findings themselves are interesting, but I think more significantly in terms of the importance of the diversity of thought was the following.

"That psychologists have been slow to acknowledge the existence of left-wing authoritarians at all is “puzzling,” Costello and his colleagues write. But here, I would argue, is where the pronounced leftward orientation of researchers in social psychology comes in. “Academic psychology once had considerable political diversity, but has lost nearly all of it in the last 50 years,” according to a comprehensive 2014 review. *Universities have long tilted to the left, but that tendency has deepened as education has become ever more highly correlated with political ideology. Whatever its origin, this political imbalance makes truth-seeking harder. Studies have repeatedly shown that investigators’ sociopolitical views influence the questions they ask. What’s more, ideologically concordant reviewers are more likely to rate abstracts and papers highly if the findings comport with their own beliefs, all else being equal."*









						The Experts Somehow Overlooked Authoritarians on the Left
					

Many psychologists wrongly assumed that coercive attitudes exist only among conservatives.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Again I'm not basing it on any conspiracy theories, I'm basing it on actual results, but thanks again for the mischaracterization.  At least your consistent.
> 
> I'm 100% for vaccine by choice.  My objection is as to mandates and restricting movement based upon vaccine results that are only preliminary.   If we are going to mandate we need another level of review for FDA approvals and a public use for a certain time prior to mandating.  The vaccine is effectively experimental until is proven safe by mass public use.  If you choose to get vaccinated like I did based on FDA approval that's great, but to mandate it is not only poor health policy its wholly inappropriate.
> 
> Like I said masks, indoors in public places, annoying but big deal.


You're trying so hard to be logical. but you fall short.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> My concern is the increasing trend to separate ourselves physically and socially from those who believe differently. More than ever, we appear to be willing to demean and dismiss those who disagree with us on a single point. We have already seen the split of journalism based on ideological bias. If what is happening at the CDC and NIH is true - people are leaving due to "bad science" - it only increases the chances of more "bad science". Diversity of thought is not desired or promoted. I'd guess (we'll see) that many who have moved from the heavily "blue" states - NY, CA, etc. - are the more moderate ones, further reducing the diversity of thought. And, as much as we want to think science is above biases, the problem is there is no science without people and people have biases. The Atlantic article below had some interesting points about why left-wing authoritarianism was missed. The findings themselves are interesting, but I think more significantly in terms of the importance of the diversity of thought was the following.
> 
> "That psychologists have been slow to acknowledge the existence of left-wing authoritarians at all is “puzzling,” Costello and his colleagues write. But here, I would argue, is where the pronounced leftward orientation of researchers in social psychology comes in. “Academic psychology once had considerable political diversity, but has lost nearly all of it in the last 50 years,” according to a comprehensive 2014 review. *Universities have long tilted to the left, but that tendency has deepened as education has become ever more highly correlated with political ideology. Whatever its origin, this political imbalance makes truth-seeking harder. Studies have repeatedly shown that investigators’ sociopolitical views influence the questions they ask. What’s more, ideologically concordant reviewers are more likely to rate abstracts and papers highly if the findings comport with their own beliefs, all else being equal."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Experts Somehow Overlooked Authoritarians on the Left
> 
> 
> Many psychologists wrongly assumed that coercive attitudes exist only among conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


"Sally Satel is a psychiatrist, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute"


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> Let's step back a second. The statement about the Fauci "flip-flop" was not an important part of the article in terms of claims. It does give insight into the perspective of the individual writing it, though. The important parts of the article were the claims that the NIH and CDC were losing employees, and some employees left due to the agencies putting politics above science or putting forth "bad" science (paraphrasing).
> 
> If you believe mask policy works, you bring it out when you need it. My problem with Fauci is that he intentionally misled people when at the beginning of the pandemic stating that masks are not helpful only because he was afraid everyone would buy up masks and front-line workers. It's funny because I went back and read the stories now, and the common rationalization is, "This was also early in the pandemic before public health experts fully knew how contagious the disease was and how it spread." This is total f'ing BS. In science, you don't make a claim if you don't have enough information. Are they telling us they learned that this is the first virus ever that masks would have helped, or, that they actually believed the Chinese government that the virus was not aerosolized? It makes no sense considering how epidemiologists err on the side of playing it safe w.r.t. viruses (no surfing, remember?). The appropriate response should have been, "We don't know if they help, but they might. Wear one to be safe." Or possibly, "We don't know if they help, but we have front-line workers that need to wear masks, and we are having a shortage, so hold off on buying masks now." I know, I know, you can't trust people to do the right thing when you say the second one, right? If that's the case, don't consider a mandate because you must trust people to perform it for it to work.


To be fair the entire Trump administration played down the virus in the beginning -- they all lied.  Mask hoarding was already happening when we just had 5 covid-19 cases: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/29/health/coronavirus-masks-hoarding.html

I personally think the biggest failing, and I have no ida where this lands, is why wasn't our national stockpile ready to go?  If there was confidence around that, surely they could've been more transparent with the population.


----------



## crush

No Dr. F, your own party and Independents will be coming after you. 
BREAKING: Fauci says he’ll retire at the end of Biden’s term - claims Republicans will 'come after him' if they retake House so I'm sure they will look to cheat, lie and steal or stop the Mid terms.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> I personally think the biggest failing, and I have no ida where this lands, is why wasn't our national stockpile ready to go?  If there was confidence around that, surely they could've been more transparent with the population.


Without getting into the politics of why that may have been, I think this is a valid complaint.  We should have been better prepared, but in hindsight would having had more PPE changed things much?  We know that the need for ventilators turned out to be misguided.  Maybe if we had a stockpile of N95's that could have made a difference.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Again I'm not basing it on any conspiracy theories, I'm basing it on actual results, but thanks again for the mischaracterization.  At least your consistent.
> 
> I'm 100% for vaccine by choice.  My objection is as to mandates and restricting movement based upon vaccine results that are only preliminary.   If we are going to mandate we need another level of review for FDA approvals and a public use for a certain time prior to mandating.  The vaccine is effectively experimental until is proven safe by mass public use.  If you choose to get vaccinated like I did based on FDA approval that's great, but to mandate it is not only poor health policy its wholly inappropriate.
> 
> Like I said masks, indoors in public places, annoying but big deal.


Before you protest too loudly defending your faith in the scientific process, read what you write:



watfly said:


> Which begs the question, how does this impact fertility?   This issue has been known for over a year and was initially dismissed by so-called experts.


If you want to dismiss the “sciency types” and “so-called experts“, that’s fine.    But don’t complain too loudly when someone points out how it makes you sound.

You can ask reasonable questions about the strength of the impact on menstrual cycle timing, and whether this has other implications for women’s health.   Or you can imply that the vaccine causes infertility and all the so-called experts are just lying to you.  But the two responses are not the same.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Before you protest too loudly defending your faith in the scientific process, read what you write:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to dismiss the “sciency types” and “so-called experts“, that’s fine.    But don’t complain too loudly when someone points out how it makes you sound.
> 
> You can ask reasonable questions about the strength of the impact on menstrual cycle timing, and whether this has other implications for women’s health.   Or you can imply that the vaccine causes infertility and all the so-called experts are just lying to you.  But the two responses are not the same.



Well, you guys all learned your BS form this cats that came over and infiltrated our country. Operation Paperclip. Tel A Vision was Operation Mockingbird. Now we have control the tables will be flipped. Jeffrey and Hunter got all the goods and they flipped because. Ghost in the Machine is real and all your Science is BS and full of lies and now has caused death & distuction. You, Husker, Espola and few others are on the wrong side of Science because you're a fraud too. You are no math teacher. Come clean with the group, fess up and go away.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> "Sally Satel is a psychiatrist, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute"


Sure.  As right leaning academics get squeezed out, the complaints will come from the right.

Similarly, when left wing academics got forced out in the 1950s, the complaints came mostly from the left.  

That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.


----------



## crush

MSNBC hack (Katy Tur) admits that nobody trusts them and wonders out loud whether she is doing more harm than good. This is being honest Dad.

*“People don’t trust us. They don’t believe us, and it makes me wonder if this job - as I’m currently doing it - is effective, but if it’s doing more harm than good.”*


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How COVID-19 (and the Vaccine) Can Impact Your Fertility
> 
> 
> Getting vaccinated won’t impact your fertility, but getting the virus could. Here’s what to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health.clevelandclinic.org


silly goose, good thing you arent  a girl doctor - and there are many out there.  Thank you for your male boomer response.  Tell me again how what the long term studies show?  take a peek at the latest science on vaccines and menstruation.  You'll have to swim through the nonsense science of who/what can menstruate but you get the picture.    Not only can fever as a result of covid cause infertility, but so can any fevers.  You linky is quite dated by the way, science tends to move fast for some in the boomer world.  

I dunno, maybe menstruation is tied to reproduction.  But thanks again for being a boomer - this one I will treasure.  Besides, long term studies are long term studies but we've only been doing this for a few years.  Increased blood flow for post menapausal women just normal right.  Go boomer..


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You can ask reasonable questions about the strength of the impact on menstrual cycle timing, and whether this has other implications for women’s health.   Or you can imply that the vaccine causes infertility and all the so-called experts are just lying to you.  *But the two responses are not the same.
> *



But both can be true - history demostrates it.  It can be questioned and you can be lied to...has happened and will continue to happen.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Without getting into the politics of why that may have been, I think this is a valid complaint.  We should have been better prepared, but in hindsight would having had more PPE changed things much?  We know that the need for ventilators turned out to be misguided.  Maybe if we had a stockpile of N95's that could have made a difference.


One of the arguments being made here by a few people is the initial downplaying of masks broke down trust between the government entities and the general population.  It seems having a stockpile of PPEs that would cover our medical/nursing staff would allow for more transparency and trust in future messaging.  Instead it was a shit show out of the gate.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> To be fair the entire Trump administration played down the virus in the beginning -- they all lied.  Mask hoarding was already happening when we just had 5 covid-19 cases: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/29/health/coronavirus-masks-hoarding.html
> 
> I personally think the biggest failing, and I have no ida where this lands, is why wasn't our national stockpile ready to go?  If there was confidence around that, surely they could've been more transparent with the population.


There were a variety of causes of the failure of the mask stockpile:

1. It was depleted during the H1N1 epidemic.  Congress tried to save a penny and didn't replenish it.  The Obama admin didn't prioritize replenishing it in their requests.
2. Even at full capacity, the strategic reserve was too small for the whole population anyway.  PreCOVID planning always had those masks reserved for medical situations, the military, and the government, and not the population as a whole.
3. China engaged in an orchestrated and secretive buy of the available PPE prior to the world knowing exactly how contagious it was


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> One of the arguments being made here by a few people is the initial downplaying of masks broke down trust between the government entities and the general population.  It seems having a stockpile of PPEs that would cover our medical/nursing staff would allow for more transparency and trust in future messaging.  Instead it was a shit show out of the gate.


We have a PPE stockpile.



			https://www.phe.gov/about/sns/Pages/default.aspx
		


The questions are things like did we keep it stocked, did we use it when we needed to, and do we have domestic PPE production.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Before you protest too loudly defending your faith in the scientific process, read what you write:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to dismiss the “sciency types” and “so-called experts“, that’s fine.    But don’t complain too loudly when someone points out how it makes you sound.
> 
> You can ask reasonable questions about the strength of the impact on menstrual cycle timing, and whether this has other implications for women’s health.   Or you can imply that the vaccine causes infertility and all the so-called experts are just lying to you.  But the two responses are not the same.


I don't know why I bother since you just spin my words.  I didn't say it impacted infertility, I asked a question.  That is what a question mark means.  We know it impacts the fertility process which begs the question how does it impact actually getting pregnant?  We don't know yet because not enough time has passed.    Since it impacts the fertility process in some women its reasonable to think it might impact actual fertility.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> There were a variety of causes of the failure of the mask stockpile:
> 
> 1. It was depleted during the H1N1 epidemic.  Congress tried to save a penny and didn't replenish it.  The Obama admin didn't prioritize replenishing it in their requests.
> 2. Even at full capacity, the strategic reserve was too small for the whole population anyway.  PreCOVID planning always had those masks reserved for medical situations, the military, and the government, and not the population as a whole.
> 3. China engaged in an orchestrated and secretive buy of the available PPE prior to the world knowing exactly how contagious it was


Right, this is what I'm saying   Obama and Trump admins absolutely should've replenished SNS; hard to justify 10+ years of neglect here. 

Though I think even having enough just for medical/nursing staff would've helped with transparency a bit.  Obviously making sure we weren't dependent on other countries for supply chains would've helped significantly as well.  Hope we're not sweeping all of this under the rug.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> One of the arguments being made here by a few people is the initial downplaying of masks broke down trust between the government entities and the general population.  It seems having a stockpile of PPEs that would cover our medical/nursing staff would allow for more transparency and trust in future messaging.  Instead it was a shit show out of the gate.


I knew what angle you were coming from, because you say things in plain English...others not so much.


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> Right, this is what I'm saying   Obama and Trump admins absolutely should've replenished SNS; hard to justify 10+ years of neglect here.
> 
> Though I think even having enough just for medical/nursing staff would've helped with transparency a bit.  Obviously making sure we weren't dependent on other countries for supply chains would've helped significantly as well.  Hope we're not sweeping all of this under the rug.


I suspect we are ignoring it, and that we can add  Biden to your list of  Obama and  Trump.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> To be fair the entire Trump administration played down the virus in the beginning -- they all lied.  Mask hoarding was already happening when we just had 5 covid-19 cases: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/29/health/coronavirus-masks-hoarding.html
> 
> I personally think the biggest failing, and I have no ida where this lands, is why wasn't our national stockpile ready to go?  If there was confidence around that, surely they could've been more transparent with the population.


Wrong. Just wait dude. Trump push therapeutic and he got mocked by folks like you saying he's stupid for want to inject bleach. Horse dewormer ring a bell? TDS is going strong I see.  t can't do anything right, right? Oh boy, just wait.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I'm 100% for vaccine by choice.


I bet you $25,000 right now that you will 100% eat that statement with some crow. I am 100% a big fat no!!!  Always have been and I will always say no to that. Disaapointed Watty but I pray for you to see the Light someday. Their trying to kill you, wtf up!


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I don't know why I bother since you just spin my words.  I didn't say it impacted infertility, I asked a question.  That is what a question mark means.  We know it impacts the fertility process which begs the question how does it impact actually getting pregnant?  We don't know yet because not enough time has passed.    Since it impacts the fertility process in some women its reasonable to think it might impact actual fertility.


Your stuck sitting on fence. I'm like a pit bull trying to get you and Dad is like a fake puppy lying his ass off everyday. I guess you feel safe up on your fence....lol


----------



## crush

You guys need to get your head out of the sand. Their normalizing men being a women as normal for a real reason. This never ever happen before until now. Lia is up for "NCAA Women of the Year." This guy in the AF thinks he knows about your health and how to eat right and he took a job a way from real women. You think he's the only man acting as women at high level? Just wait you guys. I will be gone for a few days after tonight so you can continue your ground hog day. I am shocked so many of you are blind. God bless you guys and I hope you start to wake asap. I will never be Pro Choice for the V only Pro life. Karma is coming very big for some. No ability to have kids because you don't want kids to be born. So no kids for you with that attitude. How could I sit on the fence when I know this jab has killed my friends and neighbors. I'm shocked!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

NorCalDad said:


> To be fair the entire Trump administration played down the virus in the beginning -- *they all lied.*


So, you do understand where all the lack of trust comes from.


----------



## NorCalDad

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, you do understand where all the lack of trust comes from.


For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever denied that the initial response by our administration to covid-19 set the stage for how the general population responded.  I think for me it's never been just Fauci's fault, and I've been able to discern why the Trump administration (including Fauci) took the approach they did (who knows if Trump was more worried about the election versus PPE hoarding).  They all knew SNS wasn't going to meet our needs as a country, so they had to downplay everything to prevent hoarding as much as possible.  A shit show out of the gates.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, you do understand where all the lack of trust comes from.



I've been through the Birx book now.  It basically confirms everything that the Scott Atlas book said happened:

-Trump (and Fauci for that matter) were in denial about what was heading their way.  Birx saw it early on, and tried to get people to focus on it, but Trump and his advisors didn't want to believe it was going to happen and thought that like SARS1, it would be contained in Asia
-Birx lied to the admin about 15 days to slow the spread.  She sold it that way knowing that 15 days wouldn't be enough, but told the admin it would be a way to get it under control. Trump ate it up because he was desperate to have the issue gone and not ruin his reelection chances.  He got played.  Birx, not Fauci, was the architect of the lockdowns.
-Birx had a cozy relationship with Pence going way back.  Pence was her defensive lineman, giving her cover to enact a pro-restriction agenda.  Pence was put in charge of the COVID task force.  Pence basically deferred to her running it.
-The reason the lockdowns were structured the way they were was because it had to be sold to Trump that we weren't doing China or even Italy.  For example, Birx settled on 10 people per gathering because that would stop superspreader events like weddings and funerals but her real number was zero, but she didn't think it would be palatable to the Trump admin. 
-By summer, the jig was up and Trump realized he had been played.  Trump sloshed around looking an advisor to help him understand it so brought in Scott Atlas.  Scott Atlas' entrance on the seen is why we didn't have further lockdowns (at first informally and then joining the admin).  He and Birx were instantly at war and Birx went around, with full cover from Pence, individually to the governors to try and get them to extend the restrictions.  Atlas's main deficiency was he didn't know how the bureaucratic game was played, while Birx with years working in government was very adept at it.
-Birx worked to actively undermine the admin's position, entering into an alliance with Fauci and Redfield against Atlas (each pledging to resign if any one of them was fired or moved over).  When instructed to change messaging from the admin, she'd often just rework it to hide whatever messaging she wanted included.  She practically fesses up and is proud that she worked to undermine the Trump admin's decision from within because she disagreed with them.


----------



## crush

Two year delta to the day from Q. Q is only talking about Leadership with the [D].  Common D peasants get a pass if you capitulate. If you take the side of the [D] leadership then you choose wrong.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I've been through the Birx book now.  It basically confirms everything that the Scott Atlas book said happened:
> 
> -Trump (and Fauci for that matter) were in denial about what was heading their way.  Birx saw it early on, and tried to get people to focus on it, but Trump and his advisors didn't want to believe it was going to happen and thought that like SARS1, it would be contained in Asia
> -Birx lied to the admin about 15 days to slow the spread.  She sold it that way knowing that 15 days wouldn't be enough, but told the admin it would be a way to get it under control. Trump ate it up because he was desperate to have the issue gone and not ruin his reelection chances.  He got played.  Birx, not Fauci, was the architect of the lockdowns.
> -Birx had a cozy relationship with Pence going way back.  Pence was her defensive lineman, giving her cover to enact a pro-restriction agenda.  Pence was put in charge of the COVID task force.  Pence basically deferred to her running it.
> -The reason the lockdowns were structured the way they were was because it had to be sold to Trump that we weren't doing China or even Italy.  For example, Birx settled on 10 people per gathering because that would stop superspreader events like weddings and funerals but her real number was zero, but she didn't think it would be palatable to the Trump admin.
> -By summer, the jig was up and Trump realized he had been played.  Trump sloshed around looking an advisor to help him understand it so brought in Scott Atlas.  Scott Atlas' entrance on the seen is why we didn't have further lockdowns (at first informally and then joining the admin).  He and Birx were instantly at war and Birx went around, with full cover from Pence, individually to the governors to try and get them to extend the restrictions.  Atlas's main deficiency was he didn't know how the bureaucratic game was played, while Birx with years working in government was very adept at it.
> -Birx worked to actively undermine the admin's position, entering into an alliance with Fauci and Redfield against Atlas (each pledging to resign if any one of them was fired or moved over).  When instructed to change messaging from the admin, she'd often just rework it to hide whatever messaging she wanted included.  She practically fesses up and is proud that she worked to undermine the Trump admin's decision from within because she disagreed with them.


Scott is my buddy. You have the Trump thing wrong but someone has to fill in for you guys. The military had two choices, coup or get t in office in 2016. It was Generals who asked Mr. Trump ((Cyrus from Isaiah 45)). Your all watching moving and it's almost over. Soon all of you will have your eyes opened, ears cleared of all the BS wax that was shoved down your head all these years. Dr. Scott is amazing and I love him so much.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever denied that the initial response by our administration to covid-19 set the stage for how the general population responded.  I think for me it's never been just Fauci's fault, and I've been able to discern why the Trump administration (including Fauci) took the approach they did (who knows if Trump was more worried about the election versus PPE hoarding).  They all knew SNS wasn't going to meet our needs as a country, so they had to downplay everything to prevent hoarding as much as possible.  A shit show out of the gates.


The Birx and Atlas books both agree that from the get go Fauci was as clueless as Trump.  He had convinced himself it wouldn't be a problem and the Chinese would contain itself.  It's why he opposed initially the Navarro travel ban.  The early stuff was all Birx.

The books also confirm that early on Trump was in denial and basically got played by the health care wonks into doing stuff he wouldn't want to do. He didn't realize until summer that he had gotten played. He downplayed it because he didn't want to realize that his election chances were probably going to go up in a puff of smoke and that the stock market would crash and the US sent into a recession (one which was avoided only by the massive spending package Congress enacted).


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The Birx and Atlas books both agree that from the get go Fauci was as clueless as Trump.  He had convinced himself it wouldn't be a problem and the Chinese would contain itself.  It's why he opposed initially the Navarro travel ban.  The early stuff was all Birx.
> 
> The books also confirm that early on Trump was in denial and basically got played by the health care wonks into doing stuff he wouldn't want to do. He didn't realize until summer that he had gotten played. He downplayed it because he didn't want to realize that his election chances were probably going to go up in a puff of smoke and that the stock market would crash and the US sent into a recession (one which was avoided only by the massive spending package Congress enacted).


Brix is going to jail


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Brix is going to jail


No, because she did everything with the full backing and at least the implicit knowledge of Pence, at least that's what she alleges.  Pence, among other issues, has been remarkably silent about all this and his role in it.


----------



## crush

Not sure i told you guys all this but back like three years ago I had a dream that America was crying and saying sorry to Trump the Chump. You all have TDS. It's classic to see how you guys are now blaming t again. Don;t fall for it you guys. Were never going back and ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING MUCG BIGGER THAN TRUMP.  Please, trust me on this and get your house in order because someone is coming to take over and He has help with him. When darkness comes you will be in despair and be told by the liars you all to listen to that the world is going to be destroyed. It's call the, "The Scare Event."


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> No, because she did everything with the full backing and at least the implicit knowledge of Pence, at least that's what she alleges.  Pence, among other issues, has been remarkably silent about all this and his role in it.


p.s. remarkably unmentioned in her book is her resignation.   Her thanksgiving gathering with her extended family, which she at first tried to explain away with work being done at the house, and then cited the prolonged isolation of various generations of her family (as if others weren't suffering from extreme loneliness) at a time when she was campaigning for the governors to implement new restrictions as winter approached.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> No, because she did everything with the full backing and at least the implicit knowledge of Pence, at least that's what she alleges.  Pence, among other issues, has been remarkably silent about all this and his role in it.


This was all planned. I didn't say Brix would be the only one arrested. She is covering her ass and blaming the same guy(s) always blame. Trust me Grace t, I know the scoop on this and you know it.  I'm here to help all of you. I'm just an unschooled and a dumb dumb that you will understand later that I'm not so dumb after all and actually very connected. I love you. Do not panic and fret you guys. Help is on the way. Have you seen the pics of the tunnels off the coast of LA? These are monsters were dealing with.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> p.s. remarkably unmentioned in her book is her resignation.   Her thanksgiving gathering with her extended family, which she at first tried to explain away with work being done at the house, and then cited the prolonged isolation of various generations of her family (as if others weren't suffering from extreme loneliness) at a time when she was campaigning for the governors to implement new restrictions as winter approached.


She didn't have a choice just like Bill Gates is giving all his riches away. WTF does that Grace? Who walks into a Computer store and drops off his sins for the last 30 years?  The Hunter will be the Hunted-Q


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> silly goose, good thing you arent  a girl doctor - and there are many out there.  Thank you for your male boomer response.  Tell me again how what the long term studies show?  take a peek at the latest science on vaccines and menstruation.  You'll have to swim through the nonsense science of who/what can menstruate but you get the picture.    Not only can fever as a result of covid cause infertility, but so can any fevers.  You linky is quite dated by the way, science tends to move fast for some in the boomer world.
> 
> I dunno, maybe menstruation is tied to reproduction.  But thanks again for being a boomer - this one I will treasure.  Besides, long term studies are long term studies but we've only been doing this for a few years.  Increased blood flow for post menapausal women just normal right.  Go boomer..


You didn't read the linked article?


----------



## Grace T.

For those of you keeping track, the latest line of thinking to emerge from the elite expert class is that what we are experiencing in the GNP is not a recession, but rather a transitory slowdown that will bring inflation under control and won't have the impact that recession normally does.

What amazes me about the Iraq War, the 2008 crisis, and COVID is that they don't understand once they unleash these forces, they take on a life of their own, and who knows where it all lands.  It's like a little boy releasing a ton of marbles in the air and thinking they will all land gently inside of the circle, instead of banging against each other into god knows what direction. 

The one thing I'll never understand about the COVID reaction or these other crisis is the hubris: the belief that somehow we finally know enough that we can actually control things.  As if our thousands of years of experience within civilization has melted away because we finally have met some level of perfection.


----------



## crush

Here is the expert you all are relying on. They lie when they talk. Dr. Fraud will be gone and now Dr. Levine will take over? I mean you guys, please listen to this stuff. This is your Doc. God helps us all.
"Men who have sex with men are most likely be getting the Monkeypox." Dr Levine.  








						Adm. Rachel Levine: 'One supportive adult' can 'make all the difference' for transgender youth
					

Assistant Health Secretary Admiral Rachel Levine, the first openly transgender official confirmed by the United States Senate, joins Andrea Mitchell to discuss the “politically motivated attacks through state actions” against transgender youth, and what can be done to support the mental health...




					www.msnbc.com


----------



## crush

Gee, I wonder what happen? 

New CNN POLL: 75% call Inflation and the Cost of living the most important economic problem facing their family. Last summer, that figure stood at 43%.


----------



## crush

BTW, I got some breakfast tacos to sell you guys. Mid Terms will be a red wave blood bath. Also, Trump is not running for anything in November, remember that when you have your TDS and woe is me movements. You have to blame someone and never yourself for choosing wrong. t is not President. Stop blaming Trump you Chumps......lol and I'm just messing you guys. I see so clear and you guys don;t.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> For those of you keeping track, the latest line of thinking to emerge from the elite expert class is that what we are experiencing in the GNP is not a recession, but rather a transitory slowdown that will bring inflation under control and won't have the impact that recession normally does.
> 
> What amazes me about the Iraq War, the 2008 crisis, and COVID is that they don't understand once they unleash these forces, they take on a life of their own, and who knows where it all lands.  It's like a little boy releasing a ton of marbles in the air and thinking they will all land gently inside of the circle, instead of banging against each other into god knows what direction.
> 
> The one thing I'll never understand about the COVID reaction or these other crisis is the hubris: the belief that somehow we finally know enough that we can actually control things.  As if our thousands of years of experience within civilization has melted away because we finally have met some level of perfection.


I've been hearing this as well.  Economists at major banking/financing institutions believe it's highly unlikely we are going into a recession.  I find it hard to believe their math accounts for everything, but who knows.  Perhaps MSM's desire to make money off of fear is what's driving this.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> For those of you keeping track, the latest line of thinking to emerge from the elite expert class is that what we are experiencing in the GNP is not a recession, but rather a transitory slowdown that will bring inflation under control and won't have the impact that recession normally does.


I swear I've heard that word before..."transitory".  Yellen is a stone cold idiot, she should be fired immediately and Summers should replace her.  At least he predicted this entire cluster.   Yellen is more worried about Roe v Wade than actual inflation. This whole administration was chosen on the basis of identity and not competence and look where we are now.


----------



## crush

NorCalDad said:


> I've been hearing this as well.  Economists at major banking/financing institutions believe it's highly unlikely we are going into a recession.  I find it hard to believe their math accounts for everything, but who knows.  Perhaps MSM's desire to make money off of fear is what's driving this.


Bankers always tell the truth


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You didn't read the linked article?


do you mean did I read it last march or have i compared it to what we know today vs what we knew in march?  which category do you fall under, pre or post?  I'll give you that "long" term studies haven't proven anything nefarious in regards to bleeding turnarounds...still kinda weird don't you think.  all of sudden bleeding for no real reason.. I wonder how that could ever be tied to the other bits and pieces and functions of XXers.  If you are not an XXer then nothing to worry about.  

you sure get antsy and ugly  whenever someone questions 2-3 year old scientific data - as if you authored any of it..  you are probably still sucking venom out of puncture wounds.


----------



## crush

Saudi TV is now making fun of us. Thanks you guys. This is your President because you know 90% of you voted for him. Joe won't last and then we will have KH. Look how she is holding her hands. 









						Saudi TV Trolls Biden and Kamala Harris With SNL-Style Viral Skit
					

Saudi TV Trolls Biden and Kamala Harris With SNL-Style Viral Skit




					rumble.com


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> do you mean did I read it last march or have i compared it to what we know today vs what we knew in march?  which category do you fall under, pre or post?  I'll give you that "long" term studies haven't proven anything nefarious in regards to bleeding turnarounds...still kinda weird don't you think.  all of sudden bleeding for no real reason.. I wonder how that could ever be tied to the other bits and pieces and functions of XXers.  If you are not an XXer then nothing to worry about.
> 
> you sure get antsy and ugly  whenever someone questions 2-3 year old scientific data - as if you authored any of it..  you are probably still sucking venom out of puncture wounds.


You know what is dangerous to fertility, both in men and women, and to pregnant women?  Contracting a case of covid-19.  That's also pointed out in the article you didn't read.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> You know what is dangerous to fertility, both in men and women, and to pregnant women?  Contracting a case of covid-19.  That's also pointed out in the article you didn't read.


Bold face lie


----------



## crush

*San Diego Comic-Con Requiring Face Masks and Covid “Health Pass” For Entry; Will be Enforced by Security Staff*


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You know what is dangerous to fertility, both in men and women, and to pregnant women?  Contracting a case of covid-19.  That's also pointed out in the article you didn't read.


really? show me long term studies - I would love to see how you came to this conclusion - novel virus be damned. So...to  fully understand your open minded position   --- unusual bleeding wouldn't suggest potential harm to the girl reproductive system because????but sars-cov2 short term studies that suggest potential infertility are notched in stone.....you are truly a boomer babbler.  amazing how much data you think is available to conclude much.  And if the data that is available you just basically misunderstand it, unless someone tells you or sends you a link via your google machine.  

bravo.


----------



## Lion Eyes

*This timeline provides information about select moments in the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States and around the world beginning from its known origins to today. *









						CDC Museum COVID-19 Timeline
					

Moments in the COVID-19 pandemic from its known origins to today.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I swear I've heard that word before..."transitory".  Yellen is a stone cold idiot, she should be fired immediately and Summers should replace her.  At least he predicted this entire cluster.   Yellen is more worried about Roe v Wade than actual inflation. This whole administration was chosen on the basis of identity and not competence and look where we are now.


Sounds familiar.


----------



## crush

President Biden has extended the ER for the Vaccine for three more months through the end of October just in time for the Mid terms. Their so busted you guys. They say this is the worse of all of them and you must wear a mask and get your boosters and for those men who have concerns about the Monkeypox, then they want you for the shots as well.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> really? show me long term studies - I would love to see how you came to this conclusion - novel virus be damned. So...to  fully understand your open minded position   --- unusual bleeding wouldn't suggest potential harm to the girl reproductive system because????but sars-cov2 short term studies that suggest potential infertility are notched in stone.....you are truly a boomer babbler.  amazing how much data you think is available to conclude much.  And if the data that is available you just basically misunderstand it, unless someone tells you or sends you a link via your google machine.
> 
> bravo.


Is "boomer" supposed to be some sort of insult?  Is google a tool of the devil?


----------



## crush

SCANDAL - Dr. Deborah *Birx admits hiding data* while working in the White House for Trump

You don't get to hide stuff from the President of the USA. You don't get to censor a sitting US President, regardless of how all you feel about t. Shame on some of you! Karma karma karma...


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Is "boomer" supposed to be some sort of insult?  Is google a tool of the devil?


not at all, more of a term of endearment.  In this case, you should ask yourself if google is the devil, not me.  the google is neutral.  

At some point (or maybe not), you need to demostrate orginal thought and not rely so much on the google.  Posting months old links to junk medicine articles is weak.  Notice how basically everything published uses vague terms like "suggests"...the government is so sneaky. or, or you get opinionated junk medical articles with passive agressive opinion laced throughout..

so try again and think about menstruation and the weird effects of the vaccine on it...try, even if you don't menstruate.  you may be uncomfortable with the word but give it a whirl.  While you are there, decide if it could be in any way associated with reproduction?  And yes, covid could effect and has been suggested that it may have temporary effects on sperm counts, etc...fevers tend to do the same.  but it would be interesting to see if there have been any studies done based on the new variants that seem to not have fevers as a major presenting symptom.  Science can be so cool if just allowed to happen organically. One can only dream.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> not at all, more of a term of endearment.  In this case, you should ask yourself if google is the devil, not me.  the google is neutral.
> 
> At some point (or maybe not), you need to demostrate orginal thought and not rely so much on the google.  Posting months old links to junk medicine articles is weak.  Notice how basically everything published uses vague terms like "suggests"...the government is so sneaky. or, or you get opinionated junk medical articles with passive agressive opinion laced throughout..
> 
> so try again and think about menstruation and the weird effects of the vaccine on it...try, even if you don't menstruate.  you may be uncomfortable with the word but give it a whirl.  While you are there, decide if it could be in any way associated with reproduction?  And yes, covid could effect and has been suggested that it may have temporary effects on sperm counts, etc...fevers tend to do the same.  but it would be interesting to see if there have been any studies done based on the new variants that seem to not have fevers as a major presenting symptom.  Science can be so cool if just allowed to happen organically. One can only dream.


You think the Cleveland Clinic is "junk medicine"?  

Idiot.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> SCANDAL - Dr. Deborah *Birx admits hiding data* while working in the White House for Trump
> 
> You don't get to hide stuff from the President of the USA. You don't get to censor a sitting US President, regardless of how all you feel about t. Shame on some of you! Karma karma karma...


you do if you are working with the express or implicit consent of the Vice President of the United States who has been placed in charge of the situation. There is nothing in the constitution that requires the vp to serve and obey the president. And the atlas book makes clear pence was not on team atlas (he was clueless at best and indifferent to atlas, actively working with birx to subvert admin policy at worst).  As with Jan 6, mike pence is the man with all the answers and he ain’t talking.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> you do if you are working with the express or implicit consent of the Vice President of the United States who has been placed in charge of the situation. There is nothing in the constitution that requires the vp to serve and obey the president. And the atlas book makes clear pence was not on team atlas (he was clueless at best and indifferent to atlas, actively working with birx to subvert admin policy at worst).  As with Jan 6, mike pence is the man with all the answers and he ain’t talking.




You will see. I can see you still don;t get it. Mid Terms? So you believe a lair who wrote a book?  Grace T, trust me that President Trump new what they were going to do. They were going to do damage to all Americans and he let them do it what they were going to do. It's called Sting with the Military. You really do think President Trump is a dumb dumb and it blows my mind. Most of friends like you still feel the same way as well. They actually despise him and hate him so much, that they actually think were in the mess were in because they have TDS and think it's ok to cheat, steal, spy and censor a US President because they hate him and believe the news. Like yesterday, I spoke to dear pal who now is blaming Trump for everything and wants him in jail so he can have his normal life back. Sickness people have.


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> President Trump new what they were going to do. They were going to do damage to all Americans and he let them do it what they were going to do.


Then he violated his oath of office.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> For those of you keeping track, the latest line of thinking to emerge from the elite expert class is that what we are experiencing in the GNP is not a recession, but rather a transitory slowdown that will bring inflation under control and won't have the impact that recession normally does.


Got to maintain consumer confidence.  The alternative is a guaranteed recession… though those are always declared financial quarters after it starts.

Feels like a recession already.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> No, because she did everything with the full backing and at least the implicit knowledge of Pence, at least that's what she alleges.  Pence, among other issues, has been remarkably silent about all this and his role in it.


Did she do the morally right thing?  Pre-vaccine, pre-therapeutic medicine… I’m fine with Brix prioritizing the health of US Citizens, if the synopsis of your reading is accurate.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> Then he violated his oath of office.


Sometimes a country only has two bad choices to make when cheaters, liars, killers, bio weapons unleashed and thieves infiltrate. Today has been a big day of threats btw from people on here to me. It's really dangerous for me now so I have to leave for some time. I'm serious. Zombies!!!I might come back to check on you guys some other time. Good bye!


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> It's really dangerous for me now so I have to leave for some time. I'm serious. Zombies!!!


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> Did she do the morally right thing?  Pre-vaccine, pre-therapeutic medicine… I’m fine with Brix prioritizing the health of US Citizens, if the synopsis of your reading is accurate.


This is a fair position to have so long as you don’t care about subverting democracy. Trump was the elected legit rep of the people. He had a stated policy which birx worked to undermine. It’s fine to say the health care goals you agree with > democracy but then don’t complain when the other side does it too…your hands aren’t clean so no crying.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> This is a fair position to have so long as you don’t care about subverting democracy. Trump was the elected legit rep of the people. He had a stated policy which birx worked to undermine. It’s fine to say the health care goals you agree with > democracy but then don’t complain when the other side does it too…your hands aren’t clean so no crying.


Fair critique from the process perspective. I was more focused on morally vs procedurally correct.

I’d beg to differ about defining democracy in the same way that is implied by that critique.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> This is a fair position to have so long as you don’t care about subverting democracy. Trump was the elected legit rep of the people. He had a stated policy which birx worked to undermine. It’s fine to say the health care goals you agree with > democracy but then don’t complain when the other side does it too…your hands aren’t clean so no crying.


You prefer politicians be in charge of health policy? . . . or perhaps the Supreme Court.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> You prefer politicians be in charge of health policy? . . . or perhaps the Supreme Court.


Absolutely I prefer elected politicians have final say based on experts they assemble and choose. I even accept sometimes it’s a yes minister situation. But it’s up to the elected representative to have the final say on policy. It’s democracy…guess all your complaints about trump subverting democracy was just partisan yes service. 

hella no to the Supreme Court.  They shouldn’t be involved in setting policy.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> You prefer politicians be in charge of health policy? . . . or perhaps the Supreme Court.


Neither, but the court is in its appropriate role dealing with legal dispute.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Absolutely I prefer elected politicians have final say based on experts they assemble and choose. I even accept sometimes it’s a yes minister situation. But it’s up to the elected representative to have the final say on policy. It’s democracy…guess all your complaints about trump subverting democracy was just partisan yes service.
> 
> hella no to the Supreme Court.  They shouldn’t be involved in setting policy.


So if the elected official is prone to ignore advice or consult “myself”?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So if the elected official is prone to ignore advice or consult “myself”?


He picked Atlas. You might think he’s wrong but he’s the elected rep and it’s his choice to make. 

the deeper you dig this hole the more you convince me that the left only does lip service to democracy…what it really cares about is getting its agenda by hook or by crook because morally you think your goals are so virtuous the ends justify subverting the means


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> So if the elected official is prone to ignore advice or consult “myself”?


That’s the job of an informed electorate and a system of checks and balances.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> That’s the job of an informed electorate and a system of checks and balances.


The electorate is not informed. It’s sheeple susceptible to the most ludicrous propaganda on both sides.  There are some rational people mostly on the center of both parties, but they are shouted down by the sheeple and their leaders are corrupted. But that’s democracy…the sheep get to decide which of the wolves they put in charge. It’s not perfect but it’s what we got and better than allowing the wolves complete control.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> He picked Atlas. You might think he’s wrong but he’s the elected rep and it’s his choice to make.


Executives delegate to the appointed or direct hires, 100%.


----------



## N00B

Grace T. said:


> The electorate is not informed. It’s sheeple susceptible to the most ludicrous propaganda on both sides.  There are some rational people mostly on the center of both parties, but they are shouted down by the sheeple and their leaders are corrupted.


Yup. I’m with you this far in your statement.


----------



## dad4

The main charge is that Birx withheld information from the man who declined to read his own intelligence briefings?

She could have typed it all up and pushed it under his nose.  He wouldn't have read it anyway.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The main charge is that Birx withheld information from the man who declined to read his own intelligence briefings?
> 
> She could have typed it all up and pushed it under his nose.  He wouldn't have read it anyway.


No the main charge is she  surreptitiously worked to reverse the stated goal of the administration (which was to remove Covid restrictions) by undermining it from the inside.  And it’s not even a charge. She’s not only admitted to it but is proud of having done it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No the main charge is she  surreptitiously worked to reverse the stated goal of the administration (which was to remove Covid restrictions) by undermining it from the inside.  And it’s not even a charge. She’s not only admitted to it but is proud of having done it.


Your main complaint is that she was for restrictions and you are opposed to them. 

The rest is a Grace summary of someone else’s words.  You have taught us that those aren’t worth much.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your main complaint is that she was for restrictions and you are opposed to them.
> 
> The rest is a Grace summary of someone else’s words.  You have taught us that those aren’t worth much.


You’ve taught us how much you love to put words into peoples mouths

I told you what the main charge was.  She subverted the policy of a democratically elected leader. It’s not even a charge. She’s proud of it…even views what she did as being heroic because she believes it saves lives.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> My concern is the increasing trend to separate ourselves physically and socially from those who believe differently. More than ever, we appear to be willing to demean and dismiss those who disagree with us on a single point. We have already seen the split of journalism based on ideological bias. If what is happening at the CDC and NIH is true - people are leaving due to "bad science" - it only increases the chances of more "bad science". Diversity of thought is not desired or promoted. I'd guess (we'll see) that many who have moved from the heavily "blue" states - NY, CA, etc. - are the more moderate ones, further reducing the diversity of thought. And, as much as we want to think science is above biases, the problem is there is no science without people and people have biases. The Atlantic article below had some interesting points about why left-wing authoritarianism was missed. The findings themselves are interesting, but I think more significantly in terms of the importance of the diversity of thought was the following.
> 
> "That psychologists have been slow to acknowledge the existence of left-wing authoritarians at all is “puzzling,” Costello and his colleagues write. But here, I would argue, is where the pronounced leftward orientation of researchers in social psychology comes in. “Academic psychology once had considerable political diversity, but has lost nearly all of it in the last 50 years,” according to a comprehensive 2014 review. *Universities have long tilted to the left, but that tendency has deepened as education has become ever more highly correlated with political ideology. Whatever its origin, this political imbalance makes truth-seeking harder. Studies have repeatedly shown that investigators’ sociopolitical views influence the questions they ask. What’s more, ideologically concordant reviewers are more likely to rate abstracts and papers highly if the findings comport with their own beliefs, all else being equal."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Experts Somehow Overlooked Authoritarians on the Left
> 
> 
> Many psychologists wrongly assumed that coercive attitudes exist only among conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Reading backwards and this post is interesting.  Bill Bishop's "The Big Sort", written in 2008 and therefore before the Trump political catalyst, is one of those works that was so prescient that today the idea of a divided America with the potential to be carved up into fiefdoms is like "Duh". But it is worth a read because it deals with the forces driving that segregation beneath the cable news blather of red and blue America.  It is primarily a sociology book, not a political book. The politics comes along for the ride.  People want to live in communities with those they feel kinship with and with those they don't fee threatened by.  That, as I recall, is the basic thesis.  Natural enough. After the Westward diaspora, white (largely) American is seeking to reconnect in comfortable ways and willing to move around to do it.

For the epidemiologist, especially one set upon by forces within and without, such a sorting has advantages that can be incorporated into modeling and therefore into policy.  Particularly if you now have cool kid poly sci and info warfare specialists plugging in their variables.  Blue American, urban, high density, receptive to C19 regulations as we (hopefully) head to an endemic form of the current winner in the viral genome contest. Red American, rural, lower density, resistant to C19 regulations. Debbie Birx came up today.  Her current equivalent in the White House Covid Response Team or whatever they call it is a guy named Ashish Jha who came in of March of this year I think.  The coordinator will have more of an actual impact on policy than Tony Fauci ever will-he's just there (as he himself says) to be the skunk in the room. Jha has not been mentioned before on this thread that I know but he came up in one of Crush's meme's the other day with a quote about LA considering going back to an indoor mask policy. And the quote (which was accurate) is basically administrator-speak for "Our position is here is what the science says.  But we support people doing what they want on a local basis".  Which is interesting.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Is "boomer" supposed to be some sort of insult?  Is google a tool of the devil?


From the de facto leader of the trump wing
The baby boomers are the most spoiled, most self-centered, most narcissistic generation the country's ever produced.

Steve Bannon


----------



## watfly

Anyone else seeing a small wave of Covid in their neck of the woods?  I'm seeing it here in SD.  Symptoms are mild, don't know if that's a function of those infected being fully boosted or the virus strain, or combination of both.  With the exception of one (who is very immuno compromised), all the infections are for "first timers".


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> No the main charge is she  surreptitiously worked to reverse the stated goal of the administration (which was to remove Covid restrictions) by undermining it from the inside.  And it’s not even a charge. She’s not only admitted to it but is proud of having done it.


It's going to be in the eye of the beholder, whether she's a hero or a traitor.  The ethical thing to do would have been for her to come forward with her allegations if it was as serious as she claimed instead of trying to secretly undermine an elected leader.

You're definitely seeing this division between elected leaders and bureaucrats with the right tending to side with the elected (because that's how democracy is supposed to work) and the left tending to side with the bureaucrat (because they have the experience and often the training).

Maybe if we elected more competent leaders this wouldn't be as much of an issue.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Anyone else seeing a small wave of Covid in their neck of the woods?  I'm seeing it here in SD.  Symptoms are mild, don't know if that's a function of those infected being fully boosted or the virus strain, or combination of both.  With the exception of one (who is very immuno compromised), all the infections are for "first timers".


If the waste water numbers are to believed its actually a huge wave just slightly less than the one we had this winter.  It's just not producing hospitalizations on par with prior waves.  



watfly said:


> It's going to be in the eye of the beholder, whether she's a hero or a traitor.  The ethical thing to do would have been for her to come forward with her allegations if it was as serious as she claimed instead of trying to secretly undermine an elected leader.
> 
> You're definitely seeing this division between elected leaders and bureaucrats with the right tending to side with the elected (because that's how democracy is supposed to work) and the left tending to side with the bureaucrat (because they have the experience and often the training).
> 
> Maybe if we elected more competent leaders this wouldn't be as much of an issue.


What "competent" is is the eye of the beholder.  I doubt dad4 would have regarded a President DeSantis as being competent during COVID and I certainly wouldn't have regarded President Newsom as competent.  The only difference now is we have the Trump is crazy/Biden is senile excuse....it's not really a valid excuse


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Anyone else seeing a small wave of Covid in their neck of the woods?  I'm seeing it here in SD.  Symptoms are mild, don't know if that's a function of those infected being fully boosted or the virus strain, or combination of both.  With the exception of one (who is very immuno compromised), all the infections are for "first timers".


Yeah, it’s kind of all over the place.  It’s been building for a couple of months now.

That long flat spot a month back wasn’t actually flat.  Vanilla omicron was dropping, and BA.5 was growing.  The sum looked flat, but the parts were not.

Now that vanilla omicron is mostly gone, cases are going up, because that’s what BA.5 is doing.

I don’t know how high it will go.  For now I’m not doing any more than masking up indoors and picking an outdoor table.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If the waste water numbers are to believed its actually a huge wave just slightly less than the one we had this winter.  It's just not producing hospitalizations on par with prior waves.
> 
> 
> 
> What "competent" is is the eye of the beholder.  I doubt dad4 would have regarded a President DeSantis as being competent during COVID and I certainly wouldn't have regarded President Newsom as competent.  The only difference now is we have the Trump is crazy/Biden is senile excuse....it's not really a valid excuse


Dad4 gives DeSantis credit for a good elderly vaccination campaign and a solid effort to minimize spread within that community.  

Some of that work was done years ago by making sure Florida has enough housing for their elederly population to live a little further apart.  That effort took decades, so DeSantis has to share credit with his predecessors.

I’m not a fan of his DeSantis’ encouragement of mid-pandemic tourism or refusal to allow businesses to require vaccination.

If you want to get out there and campaign for DeSantis, go for it.  The GOP could do a whole lot worse.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> .  The GOP could do a whole lot worse.


Yes....yes it could


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Yeah, it’s kind of all over the place.  It’s been building for a couple of months now.
> 
> That long flat spot a month back wasn’t actually flat.  Vanilla omicron was dropping, and BA.5 was growing.  The sum looked flat, but the parts were not.
> 
> Now that vanilla omicron is mostly gone, cases are going up, because that’s what BA.5 is doing.
> 
> I don’t know how high it will go.  For now I’m not doing any more than masking up indoors and picking an outdoor table.


Endemic.  We will never get to zero covid and we will never get to 100% immunized.  It's likely you are prepared to mask indoors and eat outdoors for a very long time - which is fine and your choice.  But this is endemic, here to stay.  

The good news is that presenting symptoms for the latest and greatest are rather mild and easily treated with traditional methods.  Neighbor tested positive a few weeks ago after coming back from a super spreader event in Denver...layered treament protocol, negative test 5 days after positive home test.  No fever, tired, muscle soreness.  She was vaxxed, not boosted, entire household has had covid, only one other in the house is vaxxed, but not boosted.  She did not wear a mask inside the house. Only thing done differently was she slept in spare bedroom once postive..which is silly since she was contagious prior to testing positive  and would have infected hubby  and rugrats then.  No one else in the household of 4 tested postive or bothered to test.  

Likely the story of many households across the country.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> What "competent" is is the eye of the beholder.  I doubt dad4 would have regarded a President DeSantis as being competent during COVID and I certainly wouldn't have regarded President Newsom as competent.  The only difference now is we have the Trump is crazy/Biden is senile excuse....it's not really a valid excuse


There is a difference between seeing one as incompetent and disagreeing with their policies.  Of course, the extreme on both ends are always going to consider the other candidate as incompetent.  In some ways qualified may be a better term.  Trump is not qualified based on his character and his actions after the loss, Biden is unqualified based on his lack of response to all issues that have faced him and his senility.  Although its easy to scapegoat Biden's mental capacity, when its actually his policies that are the biggest issue and that fact that he has surrounded himself with people based on identity and not skill.   The senility is more an optic problem currently.  His senility though could become a much more serious issue.   But let's be honest, we've had to choose the lesser of two evils for a number of election cycles.

IMO, Newsom and DeSantis are qualified since they have been governors of states.  My concern with them is that are both extremely partisan.

I'm actually more optimistic than you are for our Country.  Every generation has had their cross to bear and sometimes you have to hit rock bottom.  I think the parent vote is going to return us to more logical times.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I'm actually more optimistic than you are for our Country.  Every generation has had their cross to bear and sometimes you have to hit rock bottom.  I think the parent vote is going to return us to more logical times.


I hope for everyone's sake you are right and I am wrong.  I would be very very happy to be wrong on this one and to admit I'm wrong.  I'm actually exaggerating a bit....I think the chances of the country staggering apart are actually only about 10% right now but even that 10% is a shocking number.  I do think we are in prolonged period of time across the west where populism and socialism pull against globalism and that we aren't close to rock bottom yet.  I can't see a clear path yet for where that dialectic leads us.

I will lay out another prediction though: I think Canada falls apart before we do.  If it were ever to come to a national divorce, British Columbia joins the Democratic Republic of Pacifica, and the plains provinces the rump United States.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> From the de facto leader of the trump wing
> The baby boomers are the most spoiled, most self-centered, most narcissistic generation the country's ever produced.
> 
> Steve Bannon


Fortunately I missed the window by a couple years.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> Endemic.  We will never get to zero covid and we will never get to 100% immunized.  It's likely you are prepared to mask indoors and eat outdoors for a very long time - which is fine and your choice.  But this is endemic, here to stay.
> 
> The good news is that presenting symptoms for the latest and greatest are rather mild and easily treated with traditional methods.  Neighbor tested positive a few weeks ago after coming back from a super spreader event in Denver...layered treament protocol, negative test 5 days after positive home test.  No fever, tired, muscle soreness.  She was vaxxed, not boosted, entire household has had covid, only one other in the house is vaxxed, but not boosted.  She did not wear a mask inside the house. *Only thing done differently was she slept in spare bedroom once postive..which is silly since she was contagious prior to testing positive  and would have infected hubby  and rugrats then.*  No one else in the household of 4 tested postive or bothered to test.
> 
> Likely the story of many households across the country.


Your logic on precautions is more than a little off.  You claim that there was no need for post-test precautions since she was contagious before the test, too.

By that argument, there was nothing wrong with sending recovering covid patients back to nursing homes.  After all, the other nursing home residents must have been been exposed prior to the positive test, right?

That system doesn’t work.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Your logic on precautions is more than a little off.  You claim that there was no need for post-test precautions since she was contagious before the test, too.
> 
> By that argument, there was nothing wrong with sending recovering covid patients back to nursing homes.  After all, the other nursing home residents must have been been exposed prior to the positive test, right?
> 
> That system doesn’t work.


My claim?  you just love to twist words around..you are like a ballerina - fluttering about

Because a nursing home scenario in 2020 is the same as a house of healthy and vaxxed people in 2022...silly goose.

You would likely have:  Not gone on the business trip (Denver was/is a hot spot).  You likley would have tested an asymptomatic person.  Then you would have sent your spouse into isolation.  But probably you wouldn't have gone on the business trip.


----------



## Grace T.

A reasoned piece on the Monkeypox vaccine and so far the failures of public health to properly manage this.  The disease hasn't killed anyone outside of Africa yet because it has largely been contained to younger men, but if it breaks into the child population or pregnant women it could be serious.  If we have to dip into the old smallpox vaccines, that's a problem because if you didn't like the side effects from the COVID vaccine, you ain't seen nothing yet.  It poses an interesting question: we were willing to kick kids out of school for a year and in some locations are requiring even the autistic/ADHD/deaf ones that have problems masking to make a sacrifice for a disease which had very little impact on them, but we can't ask gay men to stop with the anonymous sex orgies until at least that community can be vaxxed with the newer vax?









						Monkeypox: What You Actually Need to Know
					

A primer by Donald G. McNeil Jr.




					www.commonsense.news


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I’m not a fan of his DeSantis’ encouragement of mid-pandemic tourism or refusal to allow businesses to require vaccination


That is because you prefer lockdowns. You were very concerned at the time. 

And yet FL did fine.

You also didn't like him keeping schools open.

And yet that turned out fine.

As a country we would be better off today had we done what Florida did. Keep biz and schools open.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> That is because you prefer lockdowns. You were very concerned at the time.
> 
> And yet FL did fine.
> 
> You also didn't like him keeping schools open.
> 
> And yet that turned out fine.
> 
> As a country we would be better off today had we done what Florida did. Keep biz and schools open.


Suppose the whole country had kept high risk businesses open in the summer of 2020.  Where would AZ have gotten the travel nurses they needed to handle their surge?

What actually happened was you imported nurses from lockdown states.  If there were no lockdown states, where would you have found the nurses you needed?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The GOP could do a whole lot worse.





Grace T. said:


> Yes....yes it could


Yes…yes they did


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes…yes they did


Yet still trump is outpolling de santis on a 1 to 1 in the most recent poll in michigan

and this is despite the revelation that he essentially got played on Covid because he was too stupid to see the trap birx Set for him.  That alone should be disqualifying to his supporters

but it isn’t. He’s still filling rallies in middle America and the cult of personality is still going strong. Saw it myself on my recent trip to flyover land.

until the governors race is over de santis hands are tied.  But he seems to have made headway in their mutual home state of Florida so maybe it can be reversed.  He’ll have to get out there among the regular folks and show he’s a regular guy (like when the South Dakota governor went to sturgis on a horse carrying the flag). He’ll have to attack trump for Covid and the economic disaster that followed.  He’ll have to attack trump for getting played on the ground on the election and his competence on fighting the so called deep state without seemingly endorsing Jan 6. Even then it’s a tough hill to climb. 

the dem job seems easier even though it’s a circular firing squad.  They just throw Biden under the bus. Unlike trump no one loves him…no one will miss him.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> If the waste water numbers are to believed its actually a huge wave just slightly less than the one we had this winter.  It's just not producing hospitalizations on par with prior waves.


I believe this. Has anyone ever said, "The poop don't lie."?

If a person only has cold-like symptoms, what % of the population will pay for their own test? What is the benefit of knowing and/or admitting you caught COVID?


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Yet still trump is outpolling de santis on a 1 to 1 in the most recent poll in michigan
> 
> and this is despite the revelation that he essentially got played on Covid because he was too stupid to see the trap birx Set for him.  That alone should be disqualifying to his supporters
> 
> but it isn’t. He’s still filling rallies in middle America and the cult of personality is still going strong. Saw it myself on my recent trip to flyover land.
> 
> until the governors race is over de santis hands are tied.  But he seems to have made headway in their mutual home state of Florida so maybe it can be reversed.  He’ll have to get out there among the regular folks and show he’s a regular guy (like when the South Dakota governor went to sturgis on a horse carrying the flag). He’ll have to attack trump for Covid and the economic disaster that followed.  He’ll have to attack trump for getting played on the ground on the election and his competence on fighting the so called deep state without seemingly endorsing Jan 6. Even then it’s a tough hill to climb.
> 
> the dem job seems easier even though it’s a circular firing squad.  They just throw Biden under the bus. Unlike trump no one loves him…no one will miss him.


I suspect it has more to do the massive amounts of money invested in TRUMP and MAGA flags.


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> I suspect it has more to do the massive amounts of money invested in TRUMP and MAGA flags.


Also pride or self-image.  Unlike here, where an embarrassed poster can just disappear and come back hiding under a new persona, actual people who have taken strong political stands with their friends and family usually don't just announce "You know, I was really wrong all those years when I called you all commies."


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> Also pride or self-image.  Unlike here, where an embarrassed poster can just disappear and come back hiding under a new persona, actual people who have taken strong political stands with their friends and family usually don't just announce "You know, I was really wrong all those years when I called you all commies."


Cognitive Dissonance is a thing and it manifests itself in many ways also seen on this forum.


----------



## crush

Get some popcorn out fellas, Grace T and the Doc and watch this short clip about, SWAMP WARS. I know you all are have a hard time with everything going on and you want to blame the Trumpster for all of it. I have to leave you all alone because I poked some soccer bears and they hate me. I forgive Captain Obvious and Mr. Know it all Doc. Stay thirsty my friends for the Truth and you will find it. WERE NOT GOING BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE. Look how t is compassionate for Sleepy Joe and even Klause. Peace to all of you and a goodbye 









						SWAMP WARS - EyeDropMedia
					

SWAMP WARS #EyeDropMedia #SWAMPWARS Eye Drop Returns finally… Many of us have been watching this movie for years and although we’ve had many twists and turns, we really need this movie to end. So with




					rumble.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Yet still trump is outpolling de santis on a 1 to 1 in the most recent poll in michigan
> 
> and this is despite the revelation that he essentially got played on Covid because he was too stupid to see the trap birx Set for him.  That alone should be disqualifying to his supporters
> 
> but it isn’t. He’s still filling rallies in middle America and the cult of personality is still going strong. Saw it myself on my recent trip to flyover land.


<sigh> I just can't imagine the level of hysteria that would take over about 1/3 the country if Trump got elected again. It's would be insufferable to hear and live through.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Suppose the whole country had kept high risk businesses open in the summer of 2020.  Where would AZ have gotten the travel nurses they needed to handle their surge?
> 
> What actually happened was you imported nurses from lockdown states.  If there were no lockdown states, where would you have found the nurses you needed?


You’d feel a lot different if your income was impacted. Yet you can’t see or relate to the impact of the extended lockdowns because your life was fairly normal working from home.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> <sigh> I just can't imagine the level of hysteria that would take over about 1/3 the country if Trump got elected again. It's would be insufferable to hear and live through.


If only 1/3 would still be willing to vote for trump how could he be elected? . . . oh wait, the groundwork is still underway for that to happen. Democracy crumbles, eroding now from all sides in a symbiotic response.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You’d feel a lot different if your income was impacted. Yet you can’t see or relate to the impact of the extended lockdowns because your life was fairly normal working from home.


We would all feel different if the national response was to err on the side of commerce and the worst case scenario came much closer to being realized. Anyone can Monday morning quarterback.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> We would all feel different if the national response was to err on the side of commerce and the worst case scenario came much closer to being realized. Anyone can Monday morning quarterback.


Except many of us saw it happening in real time. Keep trying.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Except many of us saw it happening in real time. Keep trying.


Giving yourself credit for what is only confirmed in your mind?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Except many of us saw it happening in real time. Keep trying.


You do seem to want to count only one side of the ledger.

If you want to talk about the job losses and educational gaps, you should also discuss the deaths, hospitalizations, and medical bills from covid.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You do seem to want to count only one side of the ledger.
> 
> If you want to talk about the job losses and educational gaps, you should also discuss the deaths, hospitalizations, and medical bills from covid.


because most people are afraid to have a real conversation about it.  What was the approx age of most people who died?  What was their long term outlook. How many years of life did we impact with education gap.  Uncomfortable conversation for most.

Defintely two sides of the ledger and should be honestly discussed, with much emotion I'm sure.  The gap in education is going to be felt for years to come, especially within specific communities...likely be a generational impact to some families.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> You do seem to want to count only one side of the ledger.
> 
> If you want to talk about the job losses and educational gaps, you should also discuss the deaths, hospitalizations, and medical bills from covid.


One you could protect yourself from and another was forced upon you……


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You do seem to want to count only one side of the ledger.
> 
> If you want to talk about the job losses and educational gaps, you should also discuss the deaths, hospitalizations, and medical bills from covid.


The non-Covid death side of the ledger has been given short shrift from the beginning. A holistic consideration/discussion of all possible ills vs. possible benefits of mandates would have been great to have from the beginning.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You’d feel a lot different if your income was impacted. Yet you can’t see or relate to the impact of the extended lockdowns because your life was fairly normal working from home.


Our business BOOMED during Covid which was not expected but makes sense now in hindsight.  We never closed during Covid.  We were all back in the office a week after the mid-March lockdowns.  We took precautions but were open and exposed to the public and indoors.  We had zero spread of Covid at our home office or our individual facilities for two years.  It ultimately caught up with us in the home office in spring of this year.

We were lucky, many businesses (like hospitality industry) were devastated.  It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and say lockdowns were no big deal when your pay checks kept coming.  We locked down, and then threw money at the problem.  According to one economist, the government gave out 3x the amount of money that was lost.  I know people that bought new boats and homes with their PPP money.  Like the health policies the money should have been targeted, but this is what happens when you let the government run a giveaway program.  We're paying for that now with runaway inflation and supply chain interruptions.

Add it to education interruption and mental health issues to name a few others.  The full ramifications of which will not be known for years.  Was it worth it?  Dad4 claims we saved 1 million lives with lockdowns and restrictions.  I suspect that deaths might have been higher had we not had  lockdowns, but I have a hard time believing that it was a 1 million.  I think comparing states is a fools errand, there is really no common denominator that either increased or decreased deaths between states.  The virus did as it pleased.  Those that died were not demographically the go out and eat and drink crowd.  That group tended to be home bodies.  

_*The people most impacted by the lockdowns and restrictions were the least vulnerable to the virus*._  Our health policies just didn't add up.  The virus was a "Darwin disease"; however, we treated it as if it was the plague.  Bad call.  History will not look back kindly on our policies.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> One you could protect yourself from and another was forced upon you……


Really?  You’re talking about lockdowns, and that was 2020.  How were people supposed to protect themselves back then?

No vaccines.  N95 masks were not yet available.  And cloth masks are not effective as PPE.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Really?  You’re talking about lockdowns, and that was 2020.  How were people supposed to protect themselves back then?
> 
> No vaccines.  N95 masks were not yet available.  And cloth masks are not effective as PPE.


That's ironic since cases (and I think deaths) were more prevalent post vaccines and with much greater N95 availability.  Although even now with N95 availability I rarely see anyone wearing one, I'd put it at less than 5% of mask wearers.  You and I understand the benefits of N95 over cloth or surgical masks but the majority of the general public do not.

The protections pre-vaccine are still the best protections post vaccine (by a wide margin)...outdoors and distance.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's ironic since cases (and I think deaths) were more prevalent post vaccines and with much greater N95 availability.  Although even now with N95 availability I rarely see anyone wearing one, I'd put it at less than 5% of mask wearers.  You and I understand the benefits of N95 over cloth or surgical masks but the majority of the general public do not.
> 
> The protections pre-vaccine are still the best protections post vaccine (by a wide margin)...outdoors and distance.


N95 are more common up here.  Still under 20% of masks.

Some of that is selection bias.  People who rely on N95 masks will also do more to avoid indoor/crowded spaces.  So, when you’re at a restaurant and see bare faces, those who prefer N95 masks may be having a picnic in the park.


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> That's ironic since cases (and I think deaths) were more prevalent post vaccines and with much greater N95 availability.


It will depend on when you run the numbers, but I chose May1, 2021 as a cutoff date as that is when 50% of adults were vaccinated and the vaccine was widely available.  Pre 5/1/21 there were 31,814,850 reported cases and post 5/1/21 there were 54,650,658 reported cases.  For deaths it was 574,871 pre 5/1/21 and 438,010 post.  Makes sense since the vaccine is effective against serious illness (and omicron tended to be more mild) and not very effective against infection (and omicron tended to be more contagious.)


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Really?  You’re talking about lockdowns, and that was 2020.  How were people supposed to protect themselves back then?
> 
> No vaccines.  N95 masks were not yet available.  And cloth masks are not effective as PPE.


We knew about 2 months in who was at risk. 

We didn't need to shut down or close schools.

Most people have no real risk.

A substantial percentage of deaths were and still are nursing homes. Ie the places people get sent when they are typically a short time away from dying.

We knew you didn't need to close schools that fall. 

We knew we were not going to stop a respiratory virus. 

It was pretty clear early on this was going to be endemic....and as you hated to hear... something we are going to have to live with.

The policies you prefer screwed the poor, the kids, biz etc. We are experiencing the highest inflation in 40 plus yrs etc. All due to bad policy.

You keep trying to defend the indefensible.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> N95 are more common up here.  Still under 20% of masks.
> 
> Some of that is selection bias.  People who rely on N95 masks will also do more to avoid indoor/crowded spaces.  So, when you’re at a restaurant and see bare faces, those who prefer N95 masks may be having a picnic in the park.


A lot of factors for mask wearing.  I attended a state association conference last week in Newport.  The demo was primarily self-made, small to middle market  business people.  People that are used to assuming risk.  Over 400 people for the conference which set a new record.  I only saw 2 people wearing mask indoors.  I suspect if that were an academic conference you would have seen far more people wearing masks and attendance wouldn't be at an all-time high.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It will depend on when you run the numbers, but I chose May1, 2021 as a cutoff date as that is when 50% of adults were vaccinated and the vaccine was widely available.  Pre 5/1/21 there were 31,814,850 reported cases and post 5/1/21 there were 54,650,658 reported cases.  For deaths it was 574,871 pre 5/1/21 and 438,010 post.  Makes sense since the vaccine is effective against serious illness (and omicron tended to be more mild) and not very effective against infection (and omicron tended to be more contagious.)


May 1 is a nice cutoff.  It also breaks it into two roughly equal time periods.

The other big factors are that almost all of us were more social during the second period than the first, and our hospitals had access to much better treatments.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> We knew about 2 months in who was at risk.
> 
> We didn't need to shut down or close schools.
> 
> Most people have no real risk.
> 
> A substantial percentage of deaths were and still are nursing homes. Ie the places people get sent when they are typically a short time away from dying.
> 
> We knew you didn't need to close schools that fall.
> 
> We knew we were not going to stop a respiratory virus.
> 
> It was pretty clear early on this was going to be endemic....and as you hated to hear... something we are going to have to live with.
> 
> The policies you prefer screwed the poor, the kids, biz etc. We are experiencing the highest inflation in 40 plus yrs etc. All due to bad policy.
> 
> You keep trying to defend the indefensible.


I can’t take you seriously until you actually discuss the deaths, and what could and could not have been done to prevent them using the tools available at the time.

You’re still beating this drum of “hound was not personally at risk, therefore hound had no responsibility to be part of the solution.”


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> The non-Covid death side of the ledger has been given short shrift from the beginning. A holistic consideration/discussion of all possible ills vs. possible benefits of mandates would have been great to have from the beginning.


That reeks of scrambling for an out to me. Yes that is part of the picture but not that meaningful, unless you need it to be.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> N95 are more common up here.  Still under 20% of masks.
> 
> Some of that is selection bias.  People who rely on N95 masks will also do more to avoid indoor/crowded spaces.  So, when you’re at a restaurant and see bare faces, those who prefer N95 masks may be having a picnic in the park.


Restaurants have mostly gone to crap post Covid. So precautions or not I prefer the picnic, much more consistent that way.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> We knew you didn't need to close schools that fall.


I can give a mulligan for spring 2020, but there is no excuse for Fall 2020.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I can’t take you seriously until you actually discuss the deaths, and what could and could not have been done to prevent them using the tools available at the time.
> 
> You’re still beating this drum of “hound was not personally at risk, therefore hound had no responsibility to be part of the solution.”


The record is becoming very clear on that.  You just refuse to accept it.  Short of Australia/NZ lockdowns, it wasn't a million to be saved.  We know now that those are the really hard lockdowns that worked (see also China).  Once you lift the lockdown, as they experienced initially in Europe, the virus will just build again.

Other than that it's just biting away at the edges: masks worked a little at first until the thing hit Delta levels contagions, cloth masks didn't work very well at all let alone the horrible advice re bandanas and gaiters, mandates would fail to make differences population wide because people didn't wear them properly; indoor dining wasn't responsible for huge numbers (as Los Angeles proved in its failure to control the virus...your excuse was new variant); schools probably helped a little but then you had the alcohol and weed stores and work and residence were the places most passing along the virus; hardening nursing homes like Florida did.

The thing that most controlled the deaths was how quickly and to whom the vaccine was rolled out.  As you yourself have said, some other factors like density and the structure of nursing homes was baked in.  Then there was just serendipity....Peru had the longest lockdowns, mask mandates, and martial law yet finished where it finished....Norway didn't do masks and got away in the early hits.

So will you fess up to the question you've danced around all these years....do you think Australia and New Zealand (let alone Vietnam and China) had the right idea?


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Restaurants have mostly gone to crap post Covid. So precautions or not I prefer the picnic, much more consistent that way.


Cost cutting due to inflation and supply chain problems.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Cost cutting due to inflation and supply chain problems.


In my local haunts itself staff shortage and employee turnover. That and new employees just aren’t that into it. Even my last stop at Point Loma Seafoods was a bit disappointing.


----------



## Lion Eyes

BROWN CENTER CHALKBOARD*The pandemic has had devastating impacts on learning. What will it take to help students catch up?*
Megan Kuhfeld, Jim Soland, Karyn Lewis, and Emily Morton Thursday, March 3, 2022 

As we reach the two-year mark of the initial wave of pandemic-induced school shutdowns, academic normalcy remains out of reach for many students, educators, and parents. In addition to surging COVID-19 cases at the end of 2021, schools have faced severe staff shortages, high rates of absenteeism and quarantines, and rolling school closures. Furthermore, students and educators continue to struggle with mental health challenges, higher rates of violence and misbehavior, and concerns about lost instructional time.









						The pandemic has had devastating impacts on learning. What will it take to help students catch up?
					

This may be a moment when decades of educational reform, intervention, and research pay off.




					www.brookings.edu


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> In my local haunts itself staff shortage and employee turnover. That and new employees just aren’t that into it. Even my last stop at Point Loma Seafoods was a bit disappointing.


I've always found PL Seafoods to be inconsistent.

Our turnover is not from our long term employees but our employees that have been with us less than 6 months.  Here is how hiring goes for us these days:

-Place ad on job listing website
-Wait weeks to get enough decent resumes to have a interview after sorting through resumes with gross misspellings, 10 jobs in last year or email address is sexkitten@hotmail.com
-Schedule and confirm 5 interviews.  Two people show up, one shows up in a t-shirt and jeans drinking a Monster energy through the interview
-Run background check on one potentially suitable candidate 50% chance that there is restraining order against them, their license is suspended and/or a failure to appear in court
-Find a candidate whose background check is not awful (just multiple filed claims for non-payment), offer them the job
-50/50 chance new hire shows up for 1st day of work
-Get lucky and shows up for work, 50/50 chance after the 1st week of work new hire informs us they can't work the hours assigned and gives some millennial reason
-New hire makes it a month and 50/50 chance they inform us that they will only do certain tasks and not others, claiming "that's not what they signed up for".   We can't accommodate, they quit.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I've always found PL Seafoods to be inconsistent.
> 
> Our turnover is not from our long term employees but our employees that have been with us less than 6 months.  Here is how hiring goes for us these days:
> 
> -Place ad on job listing website
> -Wait weeks to get enough decent resumes to have a interview after sorting through resumes with gross misspellings, 10 jobs in last year or email address is sexkitten@hotmail.com
> -Schedule and confirm 5 interviews.  Two people show up, one shows up in a t-shirt and jeans drinking a Monster energy through the interview
> -Run background check on one potentially suitable candidate 50% chance that there is restraining order against them, their license is suspended and/or a failure to appear in court
> -Find a candidate whose background check is not awful (just multiple filed claims for non-payment), offer them the job
> -50/50 chance new hire shows up for 1st day of work
> -Get lucky and shows up for work, 50/50 chance after the 1st week of work new hire informs us they can't work the hours assigned and gives some millennial reason
> -New hire makes it a month and 50/50 chance they inform us that they will only do certain tasks and not others, claiming "that's not what they signed up for".   We can't accommodate, they quit.


Sounds about right. I have seen pretty much the same lately and actually heard the “that’s not what I signed up for”.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sounds about right. I have seen pretty much the same lately and actually heard the “that’s not what I signed up for”.


It seems the employees wants to pick their schedule, job tasks and pay.   Subject to change at any moment.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> It seems the employees wants to pick their schedule, job tasks and pay.   Subject to change at any moment.


I was taught if you go to work for someone you work for them and you work for them the same way if it’s for a dollar an hour or thousand.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I've always found PL Seafoods to be inconsistent.
> 
> Our turnover is not from our long term employees but our employees that have been with us less than 6 months.  Here is how hiring goes for us these days:
> 
> -Place ad on job listing website
> -Wait weeks to get enough decent resumes to have a interview after sorting through resumes with gross misspellings, 10 jobs in last year or email address is sexkitten@hotmail.com
> -Schedule and confirm 5 interviews.  Two people show up, one shows up in a t-shirt and jeans drinking a Monster energy through the interview
> -Run background check on one potentially suitable candidate 50% chance that there is restraining order against them, their license is suspended and/or a failure to appear in court
> -Find a candidate whose background check is not awful (just multiple filed claims for non-payment), offer them the job
> -50/50 chance new hire shows up for 1st day of work
> -Get lucky and shows up for work, 50/50 chance after the 1st week of work new hire informs us they can't work the hours assigned and gives some millennial reason
> -New hire makes it a month and 50/50 chance they inform us that they will only do certain tasks and not others, claiming "that's not what they signed up for".   We can't accommodate, they quit.


It seems odd to me that places that were fully staffed prior to the pandemic are now struggling mightily to get staff. I thought maybe it was a local issue but I noticed in Redmond WA during the playoffs the Whole Foods only had soup out at a large hot bar, no pizza and no sandwiches were being made either. Where did all these workers go and how are they making a living?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> It seems odd to me that places that were fully staffed prior to the pandemic are now struggling mightily to get staff. I thought maybe it was a local issue but I noticed in Redmond WA during the playoffs the Whole Foods only had soup out at a large hot bar, no pizza and no sandwiches were being made either. Where did all these workers go and how are they making a living?


It was the same in Memphis and St. Louis.  Very well know BBQ House in St. Louis advertising for cooks and clerks...chatted up the owner...having trouble getting people who want to work the hours required, particularly weekends.  Elvis museum in Memphis closed some kiosks and areas because of short staffing...the big Bass Pro Shop in the pyramid had long check out lines because not enough clerks (lost some business with some people getting out of line saying not worth it....almost did that but my kid was whining about getting a cap)..  New Orleans some places had shorter hours despite it (or maybe because of it) being 4th of July week.  Springfield cafe take out only because they couldn't get a full wait staff.  Only place that seemed unaffected was Arkansas, which frankly is booming in comparison.  But I also note fly over country isn't nearly as bad as here...and no one cares about COVID until you hit St. Louis (where you start seeing a few masks again) and move North to Chicago.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Where did all these workers go and how are they making a living?


Million dollar question.  Charles Payne from Fox Business spoke at our conference last week and he was asked that question.  He didn't really know either but speculated that people are still living off all the free money that was pumped into the economy for Covid relief.   I can't speak for WA, but I suspect that CA's liberal unemployment benefits aren't helping the situation after people got used to not working during Covid.

I'm fairly confident that those that don't show up for our job interviews are just setting up interviews to satisfy the EDD "Look for Work" requirements.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The record is becoming very clear on that.  You just refuse to accept it.  Short of Australia/NZ lockdowns, it wasn't a million to be saved.  We know now that those are the really hard lockdowns that worked (see also China).  Once you lift the lockdown, as they experienced initially in Europe, the virus will just build again.
> 
> Other than that it's just biting away at the edges: masks worked a little at first until the thing hit Delta levels contagions, cloth masks didn't work very well at all let alone the horrible advice re bandanas and gaiters, mandates would fail to make differences population wide because people didn't wear them properly; indoor dining wasn't responsible for huge numbers (as Los Angeles proved in its failure to control the virus...your excuse was new variant); schools probably helped a little but then you had the alcohol and weed stores and work and residence were the places most passing along the virus; hardening nursing homes like Florida did.
> 
> The thing that most controlled the deaths was how quickly and to whom the vaccine was rolled out.  As you yourself have said, some other factors like density and the structure of nursing homes was baked in.  Then there was just serendipity....Peru had the longest lockdowns, mask mandates, and martial law yet finished where it finished....Norway didn't do masks and got away in the early hits.
> 
> So will you fess up to the question you've danced around all these years....do you think Australia and New Zealand (let alone Vietnam and China) had the right idea?


The record is not at all clear, at least for purposes of this discussion.

You believe that masks and targeted closures would have done almost nothing to limit covid.  

I believe that universal masking and universal closure of high risk indoor places would have come close to keeping R < 1 during 2020.  

We have a similar disagreement over Delta.  I believe Delta cannot grow in a masked, vaccinated population.  My guess is that you do not share this perspective. 

Both of which point to the same division.  You see a disease which would have spread no matter what we did.  I see a disease kept alive by those who insist on remaining social without taking precautions.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The record is not at all clear, at least for purposes of this discussion.
> 
> You believe that masks and targeted closures would have done almost nothing to limit covid.
> 
> I believe that universal masking and universal closure of high risk indoor places would have come close to keeping R < 1 during 2020.
> 
> We have a similar disagreement over Delta.  I believe Delta cannot grow in a masked, vaccinated population.  My guess is that you do not share this perspective.
> 
> Both of which point to the same division.  You see a disease which would have spread no matter what we did.  I see a disease kept alive by those who insist on remaining social without taking precautions.


Shocking


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> It seems odd to me that places that were fully staffed prior to the pandemic are now struggling mightily to get staff. I thought maybe it was a local issue but I noticed in Redmond WA during the playoffs the Whole Foods only had soup out at a large hot bar, no pizza and no sandwiches were being made either. Where did all these workers go and how are they making a living?


Exactly! I would this will all catch up to them sometime soon. I’d be getting my damn foot in the door somewhere.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I believe that universal masking and universal closure of high risk indoor places would have come close to keeping R < 1 during 2020.


And yet despite numerous articles and analysis showing lockdowns didn't work...you still like the concept and apparently you would do the same failed policies again.

Not good.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The record is not at all clear, at least for purposes of this discussion.
> 
> You believe that masks and targeted closures would have done almost nothing to limit covid.
> 
> I believe that universal masking and universal closure of high risk indoor places would have come close to keeping R < 1 during 2020.
> 
> We have a similar disagreement over Delta.  I believe Delta cannot grow in a masked, vaccinated population.  My guess is that you do not share this perspective.
> 
> Both of which point to the same division.  You see a disease which would have spread no matter what we did.  I see a disease kept alive by those who insist on remaining social without taking precautions.


I see (yet) again you ducked the Australia/NZ question.  Taking it assertion by assertion:

Yes the record is pretty clear

What do you mean by "targeted closures"?  You mean lockdowns?  I point you to Europe, which you yourself complained about the reopenings/closings.  Do you mean just indoor dining/gyms/bars/theaters?  If so, nope, because Los Angeles already proved that (don't you remember....you screamed new variant).  What do you mean "almost nothing"?  I think masking + indoor dining/gyms/bars/theaters but keeping work (take out, construction, processing, factories, weed shops, air travel, liquor stores, box stores) open might have saved us in the neighborhood of 5-20% (Los Angeles would have had that much worse of an experience).

Yes I agree we disagree over Delta  I didn't think masked+vaccinated would stop it, if not for the simple reason that we'd eventually get a new variant and at that point (with everyone who wanted one vaxxed) there was no point to the exercise.

As to your final sentence, you just admitted once and for all you in fact believed COVID Zero was possible, which is ludicrous.

p.s. it's fun annotating you.


----------



## crush

Hi everyone. I have a couple minutes to chime in here. Restaurants got screwed big time and most are closing. My fav Thai place is closing down. Fear is everywhere again and the mask is back. The head of the SD Schools told parents if their kid won't wear a mask, no school for them and they can go online. The Royal Hawaiian in Laguna is closing down in 8 days because? Most of you say the workers are lazy and just living off the Gov. and are not hard working slaves like the rest of you. My gosh, so harsh. My old marketing company was working with restaurants and other businesses and growing right before Covid. Try selling advertising to these folks.  No one wants to make $16 and be the mask enforcers and get yelled at by customers who say no. It's back on and this will be it. Imagine working super hard and become manager at Stater Bros? Nowhere in the job description did it say, "you have to chase folks out of the store who refuse to obey the masters and also scare the elderly half to death. My buddy left for Fl and my favorite checker left to AZ. Good luck finding help today. I'm sure some lazy people out there but no way young people will put up with BS. It's going to get a lot worse and I know why.  I'll look to check back later. I love you all but 90% of you are way off. Life lessons are hard to learn.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Exactly! I would this will all catch up to them sometime soon. I’d be getting my damn foot in the door somewhere.


Unfortunately the concept of getting your foot in the door is lost on a lot of young people these days as is the concept of paying your dues.  They think they should start as managers in an open concept office with ping pong tables, a smoothie bar and a quiet room.   Where you and I probably climbed the ladder by getting promoted within the same company, they switch jobs like shoes looking for that perfect fit or the one startup that actually goes public.  Back in our days we also couldn't make a living making short stupid videos of our life.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Unfortunately the concept of getting your foot in the door is lost on a lot of young people these days as is the concept of paying your dues.  They think they should start as managers in an open concept office with ping pong tables, a smoothie bar and a quiet room.   Where you and I probably climbed the ladder by getting promoted within the same company, they switch jobs like shoes looking for that perfect fit or the one startup that actually goes public.  Back in our days we also couldn't make a living making short stupid videos of our life.


Kids just don't trust the idea of paying your dues.  It's not that the concept is lost on them.  It's that they see right through it.

Loyalty to a corporation isn't always repaid with loyalty.  All those years of service don't necessarily mean squat if the company gets bought out and the cost cutters come in.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I see (yet) again you ducked the Australia/NZ question.  Taking it assertion by assertion:
> 
> Yes the record is pretty clear
> 
> What do you mean by "targeted closures"?  You mean lockdowns?  I point you to Europe, which you yourself complained about the reopenings/closings.  Do you mean just indoor dining/gyms/bars/theaters?  If so, nope, because Los Angeles already proved that (don't you remember....you screamed new variant).  What do you mean "almost nothing"?  I think masking + indoor dining/gyms/bars/theaters but keeping work (take out, construction, processing, factories, weed shops, air travel, liquor stores, box stores) open might have saved us in the neighborhood of 5-20% (Los Angeles would have had that much worse of an experience).
> 
> Yes I agree we disagree over Delta  I didn't think masked+vaccinated would stop it, if not for the simple reason that we'd eventually get a new variant and at that point (with everyone who wanted one vaxxed) there was no point to the exercise.
> 
> As to your final sentence, you just admitted once and for all you in fact believed COVID Zero was possible, which is ludicrous.
> 
> p.s. it's fun annotating you.


As I said.  We disagree.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Kids just don't trust the idea of paying your dues.  It's not that the concept is lost on them.  It's that they see right through it.
> 
> Loyalty to a corporation isn't always repaid with loyalty.  All those years of service don't necessarily mean squat if the company gets bought out and the cost cutters come in.


I don't see that. it has more to do with instant gratification.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I don't see that. it has more to do with *instant gratification.*


No watty bro, they don;t want to be owned and controlled by a boss man that forces them to wear a mask and or enforce. I worked with teens for over 30 years. This generation is waking up. Two years ripped off already. My buddy does carpet repair and he has to do ALL the work now because he can;t find anyone to train. Everyone at his little company quit the last two years. People don;t want anyone in their house unless its ER situation like heart attack or someone clogged the toilet with a big doo doo and crap everywhere so they call the plumber or AC goes out. All people in the service industry have to wear a stupid mask and they hate it and feel like a freaking slave. Good luck finding people who will obey the mask BS this summer. My wife's friends dd has a big rash and infection from wearing dumb mask at the Doc office. She quit last week. I went to a vet today and I took this picture.  All the office staff and the doctor all had mask and all have been jabbed. I walked in NO MASK and I am not jabbed. Crazy lies. Lady at the fron took mask off to talk to me and she had red rash, no joke. You and others think she's a hard worker for the doc and doing her fair share. Do you not see the problem?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I don't see that. it has more to do with instant gratification.


I see both being plausible.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> I see both being plausible.


Reading through this series of posts the thing that popped into my head, having a recent high school graduate, was, you know what, "the kids are alright". Which put me in mind that I hadn't had a good dose of Kieth Moon drumming in a while.  So, for those that might enjoy, Young Man Blues, circa 1970, seems appropriate.


----------



## crush

*Born 1947-Died 2022 ((75 years))*

My mother would be so sad to see what happen to her favorite restaurant. She owned 6 homes in Laguna and one was right up the street from this amazing place. Her three sons by blood all got their first job at RH. Many of my pals from high school all had their first jobs at RH. I actually have a dear friend who learned how to be dish washer, a waiter, a cook and a manager at RH. He got so good, he went on to open his own place in town. He just closed down after 25 years in biz because of how HARD it is to run a biz these days. Rent is insane now. The new rules make it impossible to survive and the last 2 1/2 years is killing small biz and tasty eat places. Put a mask on it! All it takes is one Elitist who complains about live music noise and has buddies on the commission.  Elites move into my town, destroy old cottage home and then build their palace and bark and chirp at those below them.


----------



## crush

Please pray for President Joe Biden. He now has Covid.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Reading through this series of posts the thing that popped into my head, having a recent high school graduate, was, you know what, "the kids are alright". Which put me in mind that I hadn't had a good dose of Kieth Moon drumming in a while.  So, for those that might enjoy, Young Man Blues, circa 1970, seems appropriate.


Life being tough on young people is an ageless, universal reality.


----------



## crush

The President of the United States of America needs are thoughts and prayers you guys. He also has cancer and asthma. I pray for you Mr. President. VP is getting to run the country now and might have to lead us now. I pray for the VP that she will have the strength & courage to help us in tough times.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Please pray for President Joe Biden. He now has Covid.


Too bad they didn’t roll out that fifth shot quicker. If he had gotten the shot I’m sure it would have made a difference.


----------



## crush

I want to be the first on here to say I was wrong about President Biden. I think he was lied to as well and I feel so bad for him now. Looks like he got played. I also see how former President Trump was lied to and tricked and he also got played. Trick plays with all of our lives. You know what grace T, WE ALL GOT PLAYED. Please forgive me for getting emotional and saying things I should have kept in my head. I love you Grace T and I love Golden Gate as well ((I don't like how he came at me but I 100% forgive him)).  I was also hard on Espola & Husker Du and all for my anger issues and all my mean meme's and just being all over the place, I want to say publicly to the both of them and Dad as well that I was harsh and took things too far. I forgive them as well for being mean to me. I LOVE YOU ALL, EVEN ALL THE COACHES AND DOCS WHO GOT PLAYED AS WELL. WE GOT PLAYED YOU GUYS 100%. Former President's Lincoln and Kennedy got killed so were all still here alive. This is going to get intense.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

I have to go to work now you guys but I just saw this and don't have the time to verify. If all this is true, wow, what a trip!!!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Since Imperial’s Professor Danny Altmann claimed three weeks ago, based on a recent paper from his university, that Omicron does not provide natural immunity against reinfection, this claim has been repeated around the world and become an accepted part of the Covid narrative, frightening people into believing the pandemic may never be over. Professor Altmann wrote in the _Guardian_:

Rather than a wall of immunity arising from vaccinations and previous infections, we are seeing wave after wave of new cases and a rapidly growing burden of long-term disease…
Importantly, Omicron infection was a poor booster of immunity to further Omicron infections. It is a kind of stealth virus that gets in under the radar without doing too much to alert immune defense's. Even having had Omicron, we’re not well protected from further infections…
Contrary to the myth that we are sliding into a comfortable evolutionary relationship with a common-cold-like, friendly virus, this is more like being trapped on a rollercoaster in a horror film.
At the _Daily Sceptic _we pointed out that Professor Altmann’s interpretation of the paper’s findings was flawed and not in line with what it said or showed. The paper actually did show a robust immune response following Omicron infection.

Now, two new studies from Qatar provide real-world evidence of the power of natural immunity against Omicron.

The first study looked at all confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections in Qatar from February 2020 to June 2022, comparing Covid incidence and severity among those with and without a previous infection (all in the study were unvaccinated). The pre-print study (not yet peer-reviewed) found that pre-Omicron Covid provided 85.5% protection (CI: 84.8-86.2%) against pre-Omicron reinfection, though waning to around 70% after about a year and a half. This is in line with earlier studies.

Against Omicron reinfection, a pre-Omicron infection provided 38.1% protection (CI: 36.3-39.8%), though declined with time possibly to negligible levels after a year and a half.

Importantly, pre-Omicron infection provided very high protection of 97.3% (CI: 94.9- 98.6%) against severe, critical, or fatal COVID-19 reinfection by both Omicron and pre-Omicron Covid, with no evidence of waning after 14 months. While Qatar’s population is younger than most, a very similar result of 95.4% protection was found for the over-50s, again with no evidence of waning. This suggests that Covid quickly becomes like a circulating cold after the population has had it once.

But what about Omicron reinfection after an _initial _Omicron infection – what protection does that provide? Professor Altmann claims the immune response following an Omicron infection is negligible and Omicron is a “stealth virus” that evades immunity and doesn’t protect against reinfection. However, the second study from Qatar shows this is not true at all.

The pre-print (not yet peer-reviewed) used a test-negative, case-control design to look at infections in Qatar between May 7th and July 4th 2022, with particular attention give to the period June 8th to July 4th when Omicron BA.4 and BA.5 dominated. It found that an initial Omicron infection against BA.4 and BA.5 reinfection provided 79.7% protection (CI: 74.3-83.9%), not far off the protection of pre-Omicron infection against pre-Omicron reinfection found in the first study (85.5%). The study also found that an initial _pre-_Omicron infection provided 28.3% protection (CI: 11.4-41.9%) against BA.4 or BA.5 reinfection, broadly in line with the first study (given the later time and newer variants).

*Professor Altmann and others who claim Omicron infection does not provide immunity against reinfection are therefore spreading misinformation by exaggerating the threat from the virus and downplaying the prospects for population immunity and moving on from the pandemic.

The authors of the second study say there were too few serious cases to draw any conclusions about protection from severe disease and death. However, considering the 80% protection against reinfection, there is no reason to think the protection an Omicron infection provides against serious disease will not, as with pre-Omicron infection in the first study, be similarly robust and long lasting.*


----------



## watfly

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/dr-antony-fauci-admits-covid-vaccines-dont-work-overly-well-at-stopping-infection/news-story/820b15c4a6382fdfa372304c27d4b4cd
		


Yet you can lose your job, be prohibited from certain activities and labeled selfish for not getting vaccinated.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/dr-antony-fauci-admits-covid-vaccines-dont-work-overly-well-at-stopping-infection/news-story/820b15c4a6382fdfa372304c27d4b4cd
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you can lose your job, be prohibited from certain activities and labeled selfish for not getting vaccinated.


 he is a tired old man who who didn't make the transition very well from hero to zero. Once the circus master left the WH he was left to manage the circus.  hasn't done a very good job and has contributed minimally to day to day healthcare.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> he is a tired old man who who didn't make the transition very well from hero to zero. Once the circus master left the WH he was left to manage the circus.  hasn't done a very good job and has contributed minimally to day to day healthcare.


Like I said before, he shouldn't have been driving the bus.  I was OK with him on the bus, but he wasn't qualified to drive it.  The problem was compounded when the attention went to his head.


----------



## watfly

Something to consider.  Not sure what it all means, but it doesn't sound positive.



			https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869152200206X
		


The spike protein is neurotoxic, and it impairs DNA repair mechanisms.

•
Suppression of type I interferon responses results in impaired innate immunity.

•
The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Like I said before, he shouldn't have been driving the bus.  I was OK with him on the bus, but he wasn't qualified to drive it.  The problem was compounded when the attention went to his head.


From the Birx and Atlas books the record seems quite clear that outside of the vaccines he wasn't really driving the bus.  Sandra Bullock was driving the bus.  He was Keanu...except unfortunately the Bill and Ted version that let's the fame go to his head.  He thought himself part puppet master, part enforcer, and part celebrity.


----------



## crush

THE STREETS ARE TALKING!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## watfly

watfly said:


> Something to consider.  Not sure what it all means, but it doesn't sound positive.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869152200206X
> 
> 
> 
> The spike protein is neurotoxic, and it impairs DNA repair mechanisms.
> 
> •
> Suppression of type I interferon responses results in impaired innate immunity.
> 
> •
> The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer.


Conclusion from study:
_There has been an unwavering message about the safety and efficacy of mRNA vaccinations against SARS-CoV-2 from the public health apparatus in the US and around the globe. The efficacy is increasingly in doubt, as shown in a recent letter to the Lancet Regional Health by Günter Kampf (2021b). Kampf provided data showing that the vaccinated are now as likely as the unvaccinated to spread disease. He concluded: “It appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding about public health control measures.” Moreover, the inadequacy of phase I, II, and III trials to evaluate mid-term and long-term side effects from mRNA genetic vaccines may have been misleading on their suppressive impact on the innate immunity of the vaccines._


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> From the Birx and Atlas books the record seems quite clear that outside of the vaccines he wasn't really driving the bus.  Sandra Bullock was driving the bus.  He was Keanu...except unfortunately the Bill and Ted version that let's the fame go to his head.  He thought himself part puppet master, part enforcer, and part celebrity.


Maybe my analogy wasn't the best but he was undoubtedly the public face of the Covid response.  Whether that was by design or by ego, IDK.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Maybe my analogy wasn't the best but he was undoubtedly the public face of the Covid response.  Whether that was by design or by ego, IDK.


It seems outside of the vaccines it was just his ego (at least until Biden came along...until those books come out we won't really know what kind of pull he has vis-a-vis the white house tsar).  That, and the fact the vaccines themselves have so failed to live up to their promise, makes it kinda sad and tragic in a King-Lear-you-ought-to-know better kind of way.  He's gone from the cover of Vanity Fair or whatever to his legacy being permanently tarred with a vast swath of the country


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Something to consider.  Not sure what it all means, but it doesn't sound positive.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869152200206X
> 
> 
> 
> The spike protein is neurotoxic, and it impairs DNA repair mechanisms.
> 
> •
> Suppression of type I interferon responses results in impaired innate immunity.
> 
> •
> The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer.


This will all unfold at some point.  This virus behaves in ways that confuses many.  Origin is still unknown and way too many conspiracy theories abound.  Anectodal and circumstantial evidence can easily lead somone down the conspiracy path - almost in a logical way. 

bottom line is it behaves in a way that keeps the medical community on its toes, especially those in the trenches that treat everyday.  Plenty we don't know and plenty of data we don't have access to.  I suppose the good news is that "long covid" isn't something attributed only to sars-cov2.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/dr-antony-fauci-admits-covid-vaccines-dont-work-overly-well-at-stopping-infection/news-story/820b15c4a6382fdfa372304c27d4b4cd
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you can lose your job, be prohibited from certain activities and labeled selfish for not getting vaccinated.


If someone insists on being indoors around other people while unmasked and unvaccinated, they _*are*_ being selfish.  They get the label because it fits.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> This will all unfold at some point.  This virus behaves in ways that confuses many.  Origin is still unknown and way too many conspiracy theories abound.  Anectodal and circumstantial evidence can easily lead somone down the conspiracy path - almost in a logical way.
> 
> bottom line is it behaves in a way that keeps the medical community on its toes, especially those in the trenches that treat everyday.  Plenty we don't know and plenty of data we don't have access to.  I suppose the good news is that "long covid" isn't something attributed only to sars-cov2.


Agreed.  It will take a long time to sort out the long term impacts of both Covid infection and the vaccine.  However, there is a lot we do know now.  Like the vaccine doesn't provide enough protection from infection to justify a mandate or restrictions for the non-vaccinated.  And healthy kids are  not at risk from serious consequences from the virus.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If someone insists on being indoors around other people while unmasked and unvaccinated, they _*are*_ being selfish.  They get the label because it fits.


Actually selfish is expecting other people to get medical treatment to protect you, particularly when that medical treatment doesn't do much to protect you from that individual.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Agreed.  It will take a long time to sort out the long term impacts of both Covid infection and the vaccine.  However, there is a lot we do know now.  Like the vaccine doesn't provide enough protection from infection to justify a mandate or restrictions for the non-vaccinated.  And healthy kids are  not at risk from serious consequences from the virus.


You seem to confuse “things we know” with “policy positions watfly holds”.

Whether we should have restrictions for the unvaccinated is never going to be a “thing we know”.   It’s a policy position, not a fact.  

Most of our public discourse has this problem.  We start from policy preferences, and work backwards to choose (or invent) whatever facts are necessary to support that policy.

You see it a bit in the question of whether the spike protein impairs DNA repair.  The spike protein is in both the vaccines and the virus.  I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the spike protein in one is more or less risky than the spike protein in the other.  Chemically, they are the same.  (Unless you are arguing that the mutations make BA.5 spikes less harmful than original covid spikes.  That would be interesting.)

But, if your goal is to write something negative about the vaccine, the DNA repair questions sound very scary, so it’s good to go.  All you need to do is suggest that the vaccine spikes might cause cancer, and hope that your audience has forgotten that the virus has the exact same spikes, too.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You seem to confuse “things we know” with “policy positions watfly holds”.
> 
> Whether we should have restrictions for the unvaccinated is never going to be a “thing we know”.   It’s a policy position, not a fact.
> 
> Most of our public discourse has this problem.  We start from policy preferences, and work backwards to choose (or invent) whatever facts are necessary to support that policy.
> 
> You see it a bit in the question of whether the spike protein impairs DNA repair.  The spike protein is in both the vaccines and the virus.  I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the spike protein in one is more or less risky than the spike protein in the other.  Chemically, they are the same.  (Unless you are arguing that the mutations make BA.5 spikes less harmful than original covid spikes.  That would be interesting.)
> 
> But, if your goal is to write something negative about the vaccine, the DNA repair questions sound very scary, so it’s good to go.  All you need to do is suggest that the vaccine spikes might cause cancer, and hope that your audience has forgotten that the virus has the exact same spikes, too.


The issue is that short of living our lives in the bizarre hypochondriac lifestyle you seem to advocate, there's not a whole lot we can do to avoid the virus.  What's worse is there is no offramp for that hysteria on the horizon, which seems to mean you propose people alter perhaps a decade of their lives.  That's throwing away a decade you'll never get back....for some children their entire childhood.

But a booster every 3 months which Fauci himself has said it not particularly very good at stopping you from getting COVID is an avoidable event.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The issue is that short of living our lives in the bizarre hypochondriac lifestyle you seem to advocate, there's not a whole lot we can do to avoid the virus.  What's worse is there is no offramp for that hysteria on the horizon, which seems to mean you propose people alter perhaps a decade of their lives.  That's throwing away a decade you'll never get back....for some children their entire childhood.
> 
> But a booster every 3 months which Fauci himself has said it not particularly very good at stopping you from getting COVID is an avoidable event.


What happened to da flu? If you look at the Dems today, they all get Covid and they all where black masks. Play book? The next three months will opne most of your eyes. Dad is all in as are Husker and Espola. No judgement anymore from me. They chose their path & chose my path. We shall see who was right and who was wrong. I am doing the best I have ever done. I got IT a few weeks ago and now I feel like I can take on any virus. I want to stay humble and knock on some wood but it's just hopw I feel Grace T. Yesterday I was body Surfing some nice big waves in front of a hotel and people thought I was a pro body surfer. I am 55 and felt like 33. Dolphins came to me and I saw Seals. It was Epic!


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Agreed.  It will take a long time to sort out the long term impacts of both Covid infection and the vaccine.  However, there is a lot we do know now.  Like the vaccine doesn't provide enough protection from infection to justify a mandate or restrictions for the non-vaccinated.  And healthy kids are  not at risk from serious consequences from the virus.


What we know has been known for quite a while.  Plenty of hard and anectdotal data on ulittles.  Proof is in the pudding so to speak if you look at the rate of ulittle vaccine adoption.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the spike protein in one is more or less risky than the spike protein in the other.


Right on cue with an argument I never made.  Try and recall that my only comment was that this study is something to "consider".

Maybe between the vaccine and the infection, its "pick your poison", but we don't know for certain at this point.  Make your choice, but don't force an ineffective medical treatment (in terms of transmission) on others, particularly when there are many things you can do to protect yourself.  We can't design policies around those individuals with the lowest common denominator for risk acceptance.  That cost/benefit equation never works out when you do that.

Odds are pretty good someone who is unvaccinated, but previously infected may have better immunity than someone who is only vaccinated.   But again the jury is still out.

I'm curious as to what your definition of vaccinated is?  Right now were up to 4 shots in less than one year because the vaccination efficacy wanes fairly quickly.  The virus is endemic.  How long should we continue to get boostered as to not to be selfish? What is it going to take for you to feel comfortable participating in life with an endemic virus that odds are is harmless to you?


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You seem to confuse “things we know” with “policy positions watfly holds”.
> 
> Whether we should have restrictions for the unvaccinated is never going to be a “thing we know”.   It’s a policy position, not a fact.
> 
> Most of our public discourse has this problem.  We start from policy preferences, and work backwards to choose (or invent) whatever facts are necessary to support that policy.
> 
> You see it a bit in the question of whether the spike protein impairs DNA repair.  The spike protein is in both the vaccines and the virus.  I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the spike protein in one is more or less risky than the spike protein in the other.  Chemically, they are the same.  (Unless you are arguing that the *mutations make BA.5 spikes less harmful than original covid spikes*.  That would be interesting.)
> 
> But, if your goal is to write something negative about the vaccine, the DNA repair questions sound very scary, so it’s good to go.  All you need to do is suggest that the vaccine spikes might cause cancer, and hope that your audience has forgotten that the virus has the exact same spikes, too.


We should have restriction for the unvaccinated?  wut?    

pure gold: "We start from policy preferences, and work backwards to choose (or invent) whatever facts are necessary to support that policy." -  mandate a vaccine because they will provide immunity and prevent transmission?  remember that one?  That was policy with a capital P. 

and yes...current mutation is less harmful than previous.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Right on cue with an argument I never made.  Try and recall that my only comment was that this study is something to "consider".
> 
> Maybe between the vaccine and the infection, its "pick your poison", but we don't know for certain at this point.  Make your choice, but don't force an ineffective medical treatment (in terms of transmission) on others, particularly when there are many things you can do to protect yourself.  We can't design policies around those individuals with the lowest common denominator for risk acceptance.  That cost/benefit equation never works out when you do that.
> 
> Odds are pretty good someone who is unvaccinated, but previously infected may have better immunity than someone who is only vaccinated.   But again the jury is still out.
> 
> I'm curious as to what your definition of vaccinated is?  Right now were up to 4 shots in less than one year because the vaccination efficacy wanes fairly quickly.  The virus is endemic.  How long should we continue to get boostered as to not to be selfish? What is it going to take for you to feel comfortable participating in life with an endemic virus that odds are is harmless to you?


My jury already reached their verdict and Crush has a better immune system then those I know who got jabbed. I mean come on man, our President just got Covid when he 100% promised if you get the jab(s) you won't get the Rona. That is on video. The other liar Fauci said no need for mask and Brix lied as well but it's Trumps fault. My buddy just told me if Trump new all this, then why didn't he tell us. I told he told us everything and people chose to believe CNN and the lairs at Fox, "go get the jab, now!" 75% of the money they make come from big Pharma, right? Who do they listen to? I'm out talk later guys. I love you all and we will get through this dark time in the world. Peace!


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Something to consider.  Not sure what it all means, but it doesn't sound positive.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869152200206X
> 
> 
> 
> The spike protein is neurotoxic, and it impairs DNA repair mechanisms.
> 
> •
> Suppression of type I interferon responses results in impaired innate immunity.
> 
> •
> The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer.


So I looked at this. I'll tell you what I think and you are of course welcome to take it or leave it.  So, the link is to one of these literature reviews that surveys a range of papers.  It does not present any new primary data. Their discussion about DNA repair cites one paper that can be found here:









						Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines - Cell Discovery
					

Large-scale COVID-19 vaccinations are currently underway in many countries in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Here, we report, besides generation of neutralizing antibodies, consistent alterations in hemoglobin A1c, serum sodium and potassium levels, coagulation profiles, and renal functions...




					www.nature.com
				




This paper compares a number of cell parameters, particularly different signaling pathway associated with inflammation, between vaccination and infection.  The phrases DNA damage or DNA repair do not appear in the paper, nor can I see that the authors are considering changes to genome integrity even in an oblique way.  Rather they do monitor changes to a signaling pathway, NF-kB, that in some contexts, in some cells can, among things, can impact DNA repair mechanisms.   But the primary paper does not show that or discuss it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Actually selfish is expecting other people to get medical treatment to protect you, particularly when that medical treatment doesn't do much to protect you from that individual.


Why do you assume it is to protect me?





watfly said:


> Right on cue with an argument I never made.  Try and recall that my only comment was that this study is something to "consider".


Your exact quote was, 

"The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer."

Why link it to the vaccine but not the virus? You could equally as accurately have written, 

"Coronavirus infections potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer."

The second sentence is exactly as true as the first.  It's the same protein, being produced in the same cells, according to the same RNA.  

So why point out one fear mongering cancer risk, but not the other?

Bad logic like that might potentially cause irritable bowel syndrome.  Potentially.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> So I looked at this. I'll tell you what I think and you are of course welcome to take it or leave it.  So, the link is to one of these literature reviews that surveys a range of papers.  It does not present any new primary data. Their discussion about DNA repair cites one paper that can be found here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines - Cell Discovery
> 
> 
> Large-scale COVID-19 vaccinations are currently underway in many countries in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Here, we report, besides generation of neutralizing antibodies, consistent alterations in hemoglobin A1c, serum sodium and potassium levels, coagulation profiles, and renal functions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This paper compares a number of cell parameters, particularly different signaling pathway associated with inflammation, between vaccination and infection.  The phrases DNA damage or DNA repair do not appear in the paper, nor can I see that the authors are considering changes to genome integrity even in an oblique way.  Rather they do monitor changes to a signaling pathway, NF-kB, that in some contexts, in some cells can, among things, can impact DNA repair mechanisms.   But the primary paper does not show that or discuss it.


I don't pretend to understand this like you do.  I'm taking a layman's look at this and try to see the forest for the trees.  My primary premise is that there is not sufficient consensus, in fact there is some actual doubt, as to the transmission efficacy and safety of the vaccine for it to be mandated as a condition of employment or participation in public activities.


dad4 said:


> Why do you assume it is to protect me?
> Your exact quote was,
> 
> "The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer."
> 
> Why link it to the vaccine but not the virus? You could equally as accurately have written,
> 
> "Coronavirus infections potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer."
> 
> The second sentence is exactly as true as the first.  It's the same protein, being produced in the same cells, according to the same RNA.
> 
> So why point out one fear mongering cancer risk, but not the other?
> 
> Bad logic like that might potentially cause irritable bowel syndrome.  Potentially.


Those weren't my words, those were the words of the study.  Which I said was something to consider, not that it was gospel.  You might want to put down the shovel, and buy a ladder to get out of the hole you've created.


----------



## watfly

Just to clarify, right now I think the scales tip to the vaccine probably being safer than getting Covid.  However, we still have a lot to learn.

I'm vaccinated, but not boosted.  My decision not to be boosted is not based on safety concerns.  I'm not boosted primarily because I've had Covid,  IMO I think immunity from infection is more durable than boosted immunity.  I could be wrong.  I don't think boosters are effective enough to prevent transmission so why subject myself to unnecessary medical treatment that is likely required every few months.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Those weren't my words, those were the words of the study.  Which I said was something to consider, not that it was gospel.  You might want to put down the shovel, and buy a ladder to get out of the hole you've created.


Yes, I know.  Which is why I did consider it.  Presumably that's why you linked it. The hostility doesn't really bother me; it's OK.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Yes, I know.  Which is why I did consider it.  Presumably that's why you linked it. The hostility doesn't really bother me; it's OK.


That wasn't directed at you, nor do I have any hostility towards you, we just have different perspectives based on our life experiences.  I don't sense that your trying to tell other people what's best for them. No problem.

It's Dad4 continually annoying habit of putting words in my mouth that I take issue with.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> I'm curious as to what your definition of vaccinated is?  Right now were up to 4 shots in less than one year because the vaccination efficacy wanes fairly quickly.


I have 3 shots but I identify as fully vaccinated. Don't tell me otherwise or I will cancel your ass.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have 3 shots but I identify as fully vaccinated. Don't tell me otherwise or I will cancel your ass.


U racist.


----------



## crush

Last year our President told all of us if you take all the Jabs you won't get Covid. The exact same day he get's Covid.  His Doctor today was joking about this and That. You all got lied to, how you do you feel about that?


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Why do you assume it is to protect me?
> Your exact quote was,
> 
> 
> So why point out one fear mongering cancer risk, but not the other?
> 
> Bad logic like that might potentially cause irritable bowel syndrome.  Potentially.


really we don't don't know much about mrna vaccines. - they could cause ibs, cancer, likley causing stroke, cardiac issues, excess death in europe....never let an emergency go to waste though, especially when government $$s are involved.

it's a pretty good experiment , the whole world is the petri dish.  It's never been approved outside of  of experimental trials until 2020..curious right, when we have othe proven tech...novovax comes to mind.   But hey, jab away.  I heard someone the other day compare the vaccine to software, consistently updated. And yes, the flu vaccine is updated every year...but that is different.   When was the last time you received your flu vaccine then wore a mask to protect you and others from the flu...silliness.  

Actually, the flu is a pretty good example...we've never been able to stop a respiratory disease. Looks like a similar outcome for this one.  Unfortunately this one has had more of an appetite for very specific demographics.


----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> really we don't don't know much about mrna vaccines. - they could cause ibs, cancer, likley causing stroke, cardiac issues, excess death in europe....never let an emergency go to waste though, especially when government $$s are involved.
> 
> it's a pretty good experiment , the whole world is the petri dish.  It's never been approved outside of  of experimental trials until 2020..curious right, when we have othe proven tech...novovax comes to mind.   But hey, jab away.  I heard someone the other day compare the vaccine to software, consistently updated. And yes, the flu vaccine is updated every year...but that is different.   When was the last time you received your flu vaccine then wore a mask to protect you and others from the flu...silliness.
> 
> Actually, the flu is a pretty good example...we've never been able to stop a respiratory disease. Looks like a similar outcome for this one.  Unfortunately this one has had more of an appetite for very specific demographics.


Japan has been doing masks + vaccine for flu for decades now.  

You may not like it, but it's certainly not new.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Japan has been doing masks + vaccine for flu for decades now.
> 
> You may not like it, but it's certainly not new.


nice pivot - why would you think I don't like it? as if it's personal?    When was the last time you wore a mask after you received a flu shot in the US?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Japan has been doing masks + vaccine for flu for decades now.
> 
> You may not like it, but it's certainly not new.


Have you seen the Japanese numbers against the current variants?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Have you seen the Japanese numbers against the current variants?


Not really interested in looking at short term numbers from anywhere.  It's like measuring sea level by looking only at the top of the tallest wave at high tide.  

I would be curious whether mask-prone places like Japan have different results for flu season.  That's more of a 10 year average thing than a latest numbers thing.

But, given Japan's density and age profile, that might be hard to do.  Who else is old enough and dense enough to create a reasonable comparison?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not really interested in looking at short term numbers from anywhere.  It's like measuring sea level by looking only at the top of the tallest wave at high tide.
> 
> I would be curious whether mask-prone places like Japan have different results for flu season.  That's more of a 10 year average thing than a latest numbers thing.
> 
> But, given Japan's density and age profile, that might be hard to do.  Who else is old enough and dense enough to create a reasonable comparison?


Nah you’re the guy checking out the New Orleans sea wall and because New Orleans Was dry in the spring declared the sea wall works until Katrina comes along

you were the one obsessed with r0. Have you stopped to think that at certain point the virus is so contagious that nothing short of an n95 makes a difference (and then only for limited times exposure assuming a proper fit). That the difference in r reduced from 1 to .8 is tons more impactful than reducing from 8 to 7.8?

I’m willing to take from you even an acknowledgement that at this point cloth masking is useless (even if you believe it might have been super helpful initially) but I’m sure your religion won’t let you do that. Like Catholics arguing the Virgin Mary you can’t even abandon the concept of perpetual virginity without it all coming down around you.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Who else is old enough and dense enough to create a reasonable comparison?


@espola. Too easy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> you were the one obsessed with r0. Have you stopped to think that at certain point the virus is so contagious that nothing short of an n95 makes a difference (and then only for limited times exposure assuming a proper fit). That the difference in r reduced from 1 to .8 is tons more impactful than reducing from 8 to 7.8?


Grace, if you were able to tell me the impact of changing a parameter in a system of differential equations, our conversations on this would be different.

Your example is off, btw.   Changes to R are mostly multiplicative, not additive.   So it should be 1.0/0.8 versus 8/6.4.   

Second mistake is that 1.0 is not immensely different from 0.8.  Both are no-ops.

The comparison you want is 1.1/0.9 versus 11/9.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Grace, if you were able to tell me the impact of changing a parameter in a system of differential equations, our conversations on this would be different.
> 
> Your example is off, btw.   Changes to R are mostly multiplicative, not additive.   So it should be 1.0/0.8 versus 8/6.4.
> 
> Second mistake is that 1.0 is not immensely different from 0.8.  Both are no-ops.
> 
> The comparison you want is 1.1/0.9 versus 11/9.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Grace, if you were able to tell me the impact of changing a parameter in a system of differential equations, our conversations on this would be different.
> 
> Your example is off, btw.   Changes to R are mostly multiplicative, not additive.   So it should be 1.0/0.8 versus 8/6.4.
> 
> Second mistake is that 1.0 is not immensely different from 0.8.  Both are no-ops.
> 
> The comparison you want is 1.1/0.9 versus 11/9.


great. Assume arguendo the numbers you pulled out of your butt are correct: you willing to concede 11 to 9 does practically nothing…hence Japan?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> great. Assume arguendo the numbers you pulled out of your butt are correct: you willing to concede 11 to 9 does practically nothing…hence Japan?


I merely informed you that, if you are going to pull numbers out of your butt, you picked the wrong ones.  You picked 8, 7.8, 1 and 0.8.  Those are the wrong numbers to pull out of your butt.   If you want to make your particular case, your butt needs to produce the numbers 11, 9, 1.1, and 0.9.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I merely informed you that, if you are going to pull numbers out of your butt, you picked the wrong ones.  You picked 8, 7.8, 1 and 0.8.  Those are the wrong numbers to pull out of your butt.   If you want to make your particular case, your butt needs to produce the numbers 11, 9, 1.1, and 0.9.


My authoritarian translator is going ape: “your hypothetical made me uncomfortable so I preferred to duck the question and criticize your numbers. I feel more confident discussing math anyways.  Then when you accepted my critique I got all flustered because I really prefer to talk numbers than admit to things that shake my beliefs and terrify me so I’m just going to ignore it again”

man it really is like talking to someone about the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary…all faith and no room for the slightest movement that might shake that faith.

ps  You should know we have little control over when and how we pull things out of our butt. Shy pooping is just a sad attempt to control the uncontrollable.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> My authoritarian translator is going ape: “your hypothetical made me uncomfortable so I preferred to duck the question and criticize your numbers. I feel more confident discussing math anyways.  Then when you accepted my critique I got all flustered because I really prefer to talk numbers than admit to things that shake my beliefs and terrify me so I’m just going to ignore it again”
> 
> man it really is like talking to someone about the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary…all faith and no room for the slightest movement that might shake that faith.
> 
> ps  You should know we have little control over when and how we pull things out of our butt. Shy pooping is just a sad attempt to control the uncontrollable.


Your translator misfired.

What I said was “you do not understand the models well enough to have the discussion you requested.”

You asked me for my opinion on what happens when R changes from 11 to 9.   I can talk to you about what happens to peak hospitalizations in the SIR model when you change R from 11 to 9.   ( Other people can do it better. )  But would you be able to reply in kind?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your translator misfired.
> 
> What I said was “you do not understand the models well enough to have the discussion you requested.”
> 
> You asked me for my opinion on what happens when R changes from 11 to 9.   I can talk to you about what happens to peak hospitalizations in the SIR model when you change R from 11 to 9.   ( Other people can do it better. )  But would you be able to reply in kind?


Same old same old. Sigh.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> I merely informed you that, if you are going to pull numbers out of your butt, you picked the wrong ones.  You picked 8, 7.8, 1 and 0.8.  Those are the wrong numbers to pull out of your butt.   If you want to make your particular case, your butt needs to produce the numbers 11, 9, 1.1, and 0.9.


I came into the wrong part of this conversation!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Same old same old. Sigh.


If you feel you know everything you’ll never learn anything.


----------



## crush

The WHO just announced world wide emergency for Monkeypox. Based on the infornation from the "Science Experts" this is a virus that is spread by men to men who practixe unsafe sex. I have dear friends who are gay and even they say this is crazy. Their advice right now is to just spank the Monkey until more information comes from CDC about this dangerous virus. Be safe out there folks.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Dad was telling us the vax stop infection and transmission. Turns out they don't do either.

Matter of fact long ago the gov knew it didn't stop infection...but continued to lie.

"Former White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx says she knew that the COVID-19 vaccines would not protect against infection.

“I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection. And I think we overplayed the vaccines, and it made people then worry that it’s not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization,” she told Fox News. “It will. But let’s be very clear: 50% of the people who died from the Omicron surge were older, vaccinated."


----------



## thirteenknots




----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Dad was telling us the vax stop infection and transmission. Turns out they don't do either.
> 
> Matter of fact long ago the gov knew it didn't stop infection...but continued to lie.
> 
> "Former White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx says she knew that the COVID-19 vaccines would not protect against infection.
> 
> “I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection. And I think we overplayed the vaccines, and it made people then worry that it’s not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization,” she told Fox News. “It will. But let’s be very clear: 50% of the people who died from the Omicron surge were older, vaccinated."


That would be a great argument for a world with only one variant and where vaccines are always either 0% or 100% effective.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> That would be a great argument for a world with only one variant and where vaccines are always either 0% or 100% effective.


And don't forget the immune system that will soon carry the world population over 8 billion despite the 50 million year old corona virus.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Hüsker Dü said:


> If you feel you know everything you’ll never learn anything.


Same old babble.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Same old babble.


It's all he's got.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> That would be a great argument for a world with only one variant and where vaccines are always either 0% or 100% effective.


Up until just weeks ago you were saying the vax stops the spread. It doesn't.

It was also obvious a long time ago the vax didn't stop infection. You didn't like that and instead blamed the unvaxxed.

Wrong again on your part. 

The vax neither stops infection or the spread. And the longer this goes on we see natural immunity provides longer benefits... something again you fought against.

You were gung ho to force people from jobs etc based on false evidence. I and many others pointed out there are no long term studies. You poo poohed that.


----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Up until just weeks ago you were saying the vax stops the spread. It doesn't.
> 
> It was also obvious a long time ago the vax didn't stop infection. You didn't like that and instead blamed the unvaxxed.
> 
> Wrong again on your part.
> 
> The vax neither stops infection or the spread. And the longer this goes on we see natural immunity provides longer benefits... something again you fought against.
> 
> You were gung ho to force people from jobs etc based on false evidence. I and many others pointed out there are no long term studies. You poo poohed that.


And then you have Birx stating half the people dying in the past yr are vaxxed and boosted.

Think about that. 

There is a higher percentage of people vaxxed than unvaxxed and yet half the deaths come from the vaxxed group. 

The misinformation peddled is astonishing.

The fact that you so willing still defer to these people is beyond me.

The fact that last week you stated you still liked the concept of lockdowns despite a mountain of evidence showing they were ineffective.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> That would be a great argument for a world with only one variant and where vaccines are always either 0% or 100% effective.


“Human beings have a strong dramatic instinct toward binary thinking, a basic urge to divide things into two distinct groups, with nothing but an empty gap in between. We love to dichotomize. Good versus bad. Heroes versus villains. My country versus the rest. Dividing the world into two distinct sides is simple and intuitive, and also dramatic because it implies conflict, and we do it without thinking, all the time.”

~Hans Rosling


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Desert Hound said:


> And then you have Birx stating half the people dying in the past yr are vaxxed and boosted.
> 
> Think about that.


Remember “it’s a pandemic of the unvaccinated”….


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Remember “it’s a pandemic of the unvaccinated”….


Every little bit that helps.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Remember “it’s a pandemic of the unvaccinated”….


That is still a very good description of the Delta variant wave.


----------



## Grace T.

Reading the twitter extremes of both camps its interesting where they are beginning to coalesce.  Granted, twitter is no place for moderation, but it's an interesting look at the polarization. 

The rhetoric on the anti-restriction forces has gone from the experts/politicians advocating restrictions are wrong, to they are idiots, to they should be fired to now they should be in jail (serious calls to jail people like Birx, Fauci and Ferrer).

The Covidians are openly talking about whether they need to form self-isolated communities (schools, work, neighborhoods) where everyone will wear masks and keep up their vaccination.  Openly acknowledging it's now a permanent emergency requiring permanent changes.

Granted further Covid is only one small part of the polarization (there's some much more from the economy to abortion), the vast majority of people have moved on and don't care, but it's interesting the extremes are COVID have settled on "we can't live with these people".


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Human beings have a strong dramatic instinct toward binary thinking, a basic urge to divide things into two distinct groups, with nothing but an empty gap in between. We love to dichotomize. Good versus bad. Heroes versus villains. My country versus the rest. Dividing the world into two distinct sides is simple and intuitive, and also dramatic because it implies conflict, and we do it without thinking, all the time.”
> 
> ~Hans Rosling


you quoting Rosling....priceless.  You must be an earth hater..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Reading the twitter extremes of both camps its interesting where they are beginning to coalesce.  Granted, twitter is no place for moderation, but it's an interesting look at the polarization.
> 
> The rhetoric on the anti-restriction forces has gone from the experts/politicians advocating restrictions are wrong, to they are idiots, to they should be fired to now they should be in jail (serious calls to jail people like Birx, Fauci and Ferrer).
> 
> The Covidians are openly talking about whether they need to form self-isolated communities (schools, work, neighborhoods) where everyone will wear masks and keep up their vaccination.  Openly acknowledging it's now a permanent emergency requiring permanent changes.
> 
> Granted further Covid is only one small part of the polarization (there's some much more from the economy to abortion), the vast majority of people have moved on and don't care, but it's interesting the extremes are COVID have settled on "we can't live with these people".


There are always the extremes which now garner more attention than the majority of us somewhere in between. Social media and 24/7 news have made moderate boring and extreme exciting. I like boring, if I want excitement I’ll paddle out at the pier with a bunch of summertime kooks.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> That is still a very good description of the Delta variant wave.


Are you part Ostrich?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Are you part Ostrich?


Your quote was from 2021.  They were talking about Delta.  

Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Your quote was from 2021.  They were talking about Delta.
> 
> Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


1. birx is going around saying she knew the vaccines wouldn’t end it. That leaves you with either she’s lying now or didn’t want to say anything then because she’d be lying. She’s said the vaccines were “oversold”
2. some of us were saying it would continue to evolve away from vaccine protection
3. Guess that means some of us have superpowers. Can I be powergirl?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> you quoting Rosling....priceless.  You must be an earth hater..


I don't see the connection.

Or is this just more sarcasm?


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting that one supervisor and some of the press have come out against ferrer reinstalling the mask mandates.   There have also been a series of minor scandals involving ferrer over the last week (including her calling kids vectors in a private discussion with schools urging them to more robust protections than prescribed by her decrees and the masking study her daughter worked on).  Then there’s the controversy involving the usc docs when first they said hospitals were not under strain and then backpeddled.  Lax mask compliance has not been more than 50% and anecdotally from a few businesses that I know that have brought it back the mandated are being ignored. I’m beginning to question is this will survive or if she’ll use the leveling off of cases (whether or not they really have) as a justification to back off.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Your quote was from 2021.  They were talking about Delta.
> 
> Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


So Brix is lying that they knew?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


So the problem dad has again...

Is either they were lying...or they didn't know.

And yet they made policy you like and are still defending.  You are a true believer that refuses to admit that what you liked and followed was bad policy that has created a myriad of terrible outcomes.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

Seems some ComicCon fans I know are quite disappointed they weren’t allowed to attend this year. No vax, no mask, no entry.


----------



## crush

I think by now we can all see we have two types of human species. Those who admit when wrong, searches for Truth, honest, compassionate and loving. Then we have the psychopaths. They cant and will never feel like a human. No compassion and will always lie, cheat, steal and will never admit wrong doing. You all are seeing it played out live. Choose the Light.


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems some ComicCon fans I know are quite disappointed they weren’t allowed to attend this year. No vax, no mask, no entry.


Did anyone cosplay as a covid virus?  Or Dr. Fauci?


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> So the problem dad has again...
> 
> Is either they were lying...or they didn't know.


You are asking whether NIH knew, in 2021, about a variant which did not yet exist.

Of course they didn’t know.    Very few people know about things which do not yet exist.  

Perhaps you would rther get your medical advice from the psychic friends network.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> You are asking whether NIH knew, in 2021, about a variant which did not yet exist.
> 
> Of course they didn’t know.    Very few people know about things which do not yet exist.
> 
> Perhaps you would rther get your medical advice from the psychic friends network.


Or America’s frontline doctors!


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> You are asking whether NIH knew, in 2021, about a variant which did not yet exist


We knew within 2 months who was at risk. It wasn't the general population. It certainly wasn't kids, etc.

And yet despite that we closed biz, had kids miss school etc.
The data clearly showed early on who was at risk.

And in addition to the above many people who had no risk lost jobs because of the push to vaccinate people with no risk. And related to that people like you scoffed at the notion when it was pointed out constantly that this was an experimental vaxx with no long term studies.. and it is unethical to force people to take such a drug.

Don't pretend now people couldn't possibly know, etc. The data and real world observation showed early on what was going on.

The policy makers and people like you refused to look at real world data and adjust accordingly.

You are still in denial.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Desert Hound said:


> We knew within 2 months who was at risk. It wasn't the general population. It certainly wasn't kids, etc.
> 
> And yet despite that we closed biz, had kids miss school etc.
> The data clearly showed early on who was at risk.
> 
> And in addition to the above many people who had no risk lost jobs because of the push to vaccinate people with no risk. And related to that people like you scoffed at the notion when it was pointed out constantly that this was an experimental vaxx with no long term studies.. and it is unethical to force people to take such a drug.
> 
> Don't pretend now people couldn't possibly know, etc. The data and real world observation showed early on what was going on.
> 
> The policy makers and people like you refused to look at real world data and adjust accordingly.
> 
> You are still in denial.


All under trumps watch, sad isn’t it?


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Hüsker Dü said:


> All under trumps watch, sad isn’t it?


That is your big comeback to the policies you love?


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You are asking whether NIH knew, in 2021, about a variant which did not yet exist.
> 
> Of course they didn’t know.    Very few people know about things which do not yet exist.
> 
> Perhaps you would rther get your medical advice from the psychic friends network.


wait - scientist didn't do any sciency things?  Of course they knew it was going to mutate, it's what viruses do.   Research science, psychic friends network..same same.  

But really, of course they knew it was going to mutate, they just didn't know in which direction - that is fair.  Vaccine rollout was terrible, for many reasons - trump, politics, biden, harris, fauci, et al. Still happening but has gotten much better.  At least paxlovid is a thing, prescribe away, open season.


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> Your quote was from 2021.  They were talking about Delta.
> 
> Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


Way I look at it, in however many trillion or more times the Cov2 polymerase has zipped up and down its genome in the past several years, introducing errors here and there and inducing recombination, there's been just three arising moonshot genomes that changed the course of events. The first recombinant that jumped the shark in Wuhan.  Delta.  And then the event(s) leading to the omicron lineage.  Monday morning quarterbacking requires a hypothetical.  The one I think about sometimes is-what if Delta hadn't happened right when it did?  The time line LE posted a bit ago lays out the "what ifs" pretty clearly.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> 1. birx is going around saying she knew the vaccines wouldn’t end it.


Actually, if you have a link for exactly what she is saying and the context for "knew" I'd appreciate it.  I assume this is during interviews as she goes around on her book tour.  In some ways I see her as a sympathetic figure.  If you look at the organizational hierarchy of the task force during that critical time she was essentially responsible for much of it and in charge of none of it.  But asymptomatic spread was her pet thing and the way she tried to push on that a) messed up the data reporting in b) ways that didn't really track asymptomatic spread.  So she made matters worse for herself.  So if she, like Billy Barr, has written a book and is going around on the mea culpa cable news/talk show circuit, saying inflammatory things those need to be looked at critically.  I mean, if her book is just another "here's how I kept my moral compass in the Trump White House shit storm" that's a pretty well worn path at this point and a missed opportunity.  If the book instead focuses on administratively here's how things worked-or didn't-from her perspective that's more useful.  But she was pretty much walled off from the vaccines.  That was Miley and Jared (presumably there to hoover up any loose change).


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Happened again said:


> paxlovid is a thing, prescribe away, open season.


Agree with that part.  Meant to be a "buy a little time for heroics if at death's door" sort of application.  But expanded to be "Your Covid's not clearing up, well, let's try this".  Which (just my opinion) maybe pushing  people whose immune systems are poised in the right way towards long term, systemic/neurological outcomes.  Again, just my opinion there.


----------



## crush

We are all controlled by Parasites ((see picture)). These psychopaths can't feel remorse, compassion or love and they feed off your light and your ability to love, have remorse and have compassion for each other and to do what is right. The one's at very top are vampires and 100% come from the bloodline of Cain and they survive off our blood, endless wars, hate, destruction, cheating, lying and stealing. Cain's only instinct was to kill his brother Abel and he did. Cain was like a wild wolf or lion and only kills. Legend has it that Eve was actually beguiled by Lucifer and they produced a little monster man that has different DNA then the pure God DNA that Adam & Even had. Abel was a good man and did what pleased God. Cain killed Abel! Deep stuff folks and were all watching the collapse of the psychopaths. Watch these dudes on here and see how they write. I thought through love, forgiveness and kindness they would wake up. Nope, impossible!!  They also wormed their way into girls soccer. I know for sure I dealt with three of them. I will look to try & help those caught in the middle to finally WTF up. I love you all and feel so sad for the little psycho who has no ability to love. Remember, all they do is lie and they will die a liar!


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Actually, if you have a link for exactly what she is saying and the context for "knew" I'd appreciate it.  I assume this is during interviews as she goes around on her book tour.  In some ways I see her as a sympathetic figure.  If you look at the organizational hierarchy of the task force during that critical time she was essentially responsible for much of it and in charge of none of it.  But asymptomatic spread was her pet thing and the way she tried to push on that a) messed up the data reporting in b) ways that didn't really track asymptomatic spread.  So she made matters worse for herself.  So if she, like Billy Barr, has written a book and is going around on the mea culpa cable news/talk show circuit, saying inflammatory things those need to be looked at critically.  I mean, if her book is just another "here's how I kept my moral compass in the Trump White House shit storm" that's a pretty well worn path at this point and a missed opportunity.  If the book instead focuses on administratively here's how things worked-or didn't-from her perspective that's more useful.  But she was pretty much walled off from the vaccines.  That was Miley and Jared (presumably there to hoover up any loose change).


If I come across it again I’ll post it. The Twitter verse has pretty much moved onto the most recent (and probably most outrageous) fauci interview where he simultaneously claims he didn’t lock down anything (blaming redfield and the cdc) and said we probably needed more rigorous distancing/masks early on. He’s also getting torched for claiming he was in favor of opening schools safely when the record of several interviews with those in political power in the fall of 2020 was that he intervened to keep them shut such as by personally calling the gov of North Carolina to postpone school reopening.

her book is anything but a self reflection of what worked and what didn’t. It’s a justification for what she did when she did it, with at first everyone working against her, and then trump/atlas working against her  It’s why it pairs nicely with the atlas book (which is pretty much the same thing in reverse). They both pretty much agree on what happened (except atlas is reluctant to call out trump as a moron who was asleep at the wheel and got duped)

I doubt there will be much introspection on this from the healthcare establishment.  They are too far deeply invested and the anti restriction forces have moved from they are wrong to they should be in jail (a la Hillary or trump). It would also as you imply bring to light certain uncomfortable relationships with big pharma which might end that game.  And they are still duffing it (with monkey pox): I’ll predict the failure on this is so complete that the vaccine will be required for the kids of those of us that have kids right now in middle and elementary schools to attend college.


----------



## crush

"Anthony Fauci and Deborah Birx knowingly lied to the world when they told us the Covid-19 vaccines were safe and effective. They both have just admitted this. Birx said she knew that it wasn’t going to stop infection and Fauci admitted they really have no idea how the vaccines impact fertility. The real doctors, scientists, researchers and journalists have been exposing this for a long time. Instead, they got cancelled, arrested, called far right conspiracy theorists and people lost their jobs." Patriot Steve

Grace T, no one who already hated Trump would have believed anything he said. Trust me and just stop blaming Trump and go look in your mirror and be honest with yourself. You got played 100%. I and few of my pals said no to mask and no to ALL the jabs and we all got whacked for it. Mocked, lost jobs, lost income and lost friends for saying no to the Jabs and the mask. Look at these monsters lie to your face. They all get Covid and they all wear masks because of their boss. This will never end until WE say no more. 700,000-1,000,000 kids go missing every year and most just want to go back to normal. This planet is insane.


----------



## crush

Fauci Challenges Rand Paul: Go Ahead & Investigate Me
					

Fauci to Sen Rand Paul: "All I have ever done, if you go back and look at everything I’ve ever done, was to recommend common-sense, good CDC-recommended public health policies that have saved millions




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

They want our kids. This is all out war on the kiddos like I said 4 years ago. WTF up normies. You have no choice now. Do you see what I see?

Mt. Pleasant School board member who mocked parents, taunted them over teaching LGBT has been arrested after he thought he was meeting a child for sex but met the police instead.
41-year-old Eric Rohman was arrested during an online sting operation conducted by the Isabella County Sheriff’s Office in Michigan to catch child sex predators. Rohman was charged with "accosting a child for immoral purposes and using a computer to commit a crime."









						Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> If I come across it again I’ll post it. The Twitter verse has pretty much moved onto the most recent (and probably most outrageous) fauci interview where he simultaneously claims he didn’t lock down anything (blaming redfield and the cdc) and said we probably needed more rigorous distancing/masks early on. He’s also getting torched for claiming he was in favor of opening schools safely when the record of several interviews with those in political power in the fall of 2020 was that he intervened to keep them shut such as by personally calling the gov of North Carolina to postpone school reopening.
> 
> her book is anything but a self reflection of what worked and what didn’t. It’s a justification for what she did when she did it, with at first everyone working against her, and then trump/atlas working against her  It’s why it pairs nicely with the atlas book (which is pretty much the same thing in reverse). They both pretty much agree on what happened (except atlas is reluctant to call out trump as a moron who was asleep at the wheel and got duped)
> 
> I doubt there will be much introspection on this from the healthcare establishment.  They are too far deeply invested and the anti restriction forces have moved from they are wrong to they should be in jail (a la Hillary or trump). It would also as you imply bring to light certain uncomfortable relationships with big pharma which might end that game.  And they are still duffing it (with monkey pox): I’ll predict the failure on this is so complete that the vaccine will be required for the kids of those of us that have kids right now in middle and elementary schools to attend college.


You really need to define the word “lockdown”.

Right now, it covers everything from “the Chinese are locking people in their apartment blocks” at one end, to “they still want me to wear a mask while walking to my table at the restaurant”.

That makes the word pretty much useless, unless your goal is to talk about one thing and have your listeners imagine the other.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You really need to define the word “lockdown”.
> 
> Right now, it covers everything from “the Chinese are locking people in their apartment blocks” at one end, to “they still want me to wear a mask while walking to my table at the restaurant”.
> 
> That makes the word pretty much useless, unless your goal is to talk about one thing and have your listeners imagine the other.


Duck Duck Go
Lockdown
A lockdown is a restriction policy for people or community to stay where they are, usually due to specific risks to themselves or to others if they can move and interact freely. The term "stay-at-home" or "shelter-in-place" is often used for lockdowns that affect an area, rather than specific locations.

Google
Lockdown
the confining of prisoners to their cells, typically after an escape or to regain control during a riot


----------



## crush

*"But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. 
They will be paid back for the harm they have done." Pete*


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You really need to define the word “lockdown”.
> 
> Right now, it covers everything from “the Chinese are locking people in their apartment blocks” at one end, to “they still want me to wear a mask while walking to my table at the restaurant”.
> 
> That makes the word pretty much useless, unless your goal is to talk about one thing and have your listeners imagine the other.


Kinda like the White House wants to redefine the word “recession”, huh?


----------



## crush

FAUCI: We Were ‘Always Aware’ of Natural Immunity

Crush: So was I Doc. I tried to tell all my socal friends about the God gived immune system but most laughed at me and called me a dumb dumb and said I was on meds.

@everyone minus the psychopaths: They think you're stupid and dumb dumb sheep WHO would blame Trump for all this. It's all Trumps fault. Listen, when we have 1,000,000 kids going missing and another 1,000,000 killed before birth every year, we got serious problems. You must wake up from this nightmare so this can end. WTF up normies!!!  Splash water on your face and ask for wisdom for God sakes.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like the White House wants to redefine the word “recession”, huh?


Not really.

Your use of lockdown is most similar to progressives’ use of the word “woman”.  They keep using it, but never actually clarify who does and does not qualify.  This lets them talk about a topic, with the full intent that the listener imagines something completely different.

And, when someone pulls that kind of BS, they get called on it.  

So, you keep using this word “lockdown”.  Are you willing to clearly state which policies qualify as a “lockdown”, and which policies do not qualify as a “lockdown”?

My guess is that you can’t tell me because you’re not a biologist.


----------



## crush

"The unvaccinated are the heroes of the last two years, as they allowed us all to have a control group in the great experiment and highlight the shortcoming of the COVID vaccines. The unvaccinated carry many battle scars and injuries as they are the people we tried to mentally break. Yet no one wants to talk about what we did to them and what they forced the science to unveil." Dr


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Your use of lockdown is most similar to progressives’ use of the word “woman”.  They keep using it, but never actually clarify who does and does not qualify.  This lets them talk about a topic, with the full intent that the listener imagines something completely different.
> 
> And, when someone pulls that kind of BS, they get called on it.
> 
> So, you keep using this word “lockdown”.  Are you willing to clearly state which policies qualify as a “lockdown”, and which policies do not qualify as a “lockdown”?
> 
> My guess is that you can’t tell me because you’re not a biologist.


That was cute.  I approve

  Neither side will give you a definition.  The antilockdowners will say it’s synonymous with any restriction which closes anything because: a. That’s how you all defined it at first with your 10 people meeting and weed and alcohol shops open, b. Politically it’s a way to beat you over the head by tying you to China (which btw is where the idea were born), and c. Because otherwise y’all would use it to absolve yourselves of any responsibility as fauci has tried. The lockdowners won’t do it because it requires an admission that the things that worked were nz and australia and folks like you have been reluctant to go there for a variety of reasons (not the least of which would be everything was pointless and we failed)

the real truth, and I think on this you and I would agree, Is that (ever since the words define what is means left president clintons mouth) language has become part of the political wars and is useful only in advancing positions. The part we disagree on is that I’ve always Viewed this experience as political (which is what red pilled me) while you have always viewed this as a question of morality.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> That was cute.  I approve
> 
> Neither side will give you a definition.  The antilockdowners will say it’s synonymous with any restriction which closes anything because: a. That’s how you all defined it at first with your 10 people meeting and weed and alcohol shops open, b. Politically it’s a way to beat you over the head by tying you to China (which btw is where the idea were born), and c. Because otherwise y’all would use it to absolve yourselves of any responsibility as fauci has tried. The lockdowners won’t do it because it requires an admission that the things that worked were nz and australia and folks like you have been reluctant to go there for a variety of reasons (not the least of which would be everything was pointless and we failed)
> 
> the real truth, and I think on this you and I would agree, Is that (ever since the words define what is means left president clintons mouth) language has become part of the political wars and is useful only in advancing positions. The part we disagree on is that I’ve always Viewed this experience as political (which is what red pilled me) while you have always viewed this as a question of morality.


It was both Grace t and one other red pill you refused to take.  The Political Morality Police ((PMPs)) are dangerous and have just one goal in mine. I pray some day you will see what I see. I lost everything this world had to offer and I'm so glad I did not kneel when asked to. I'm glad I said no to mask and no to Jabs. You can thank me later.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like the White House wants to redefine the word “recession”, huh?


In case you didn't catch Yellen's interview on Meet the Press.  Very troubling comments from her.  She said she would be "amazed" if it was declared a recession and denied that two quarters of negative GDP growth was a recession.  Standard operating procedure for the administration to deny there is a problem so they don't have to address it.


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> In case you didn't catch Yellen's interview on Meet the Press.  Very troubling comments from her.  She said she would be "amazed" if it was declared a recession and denied that two quarters of negative GDP growth was a recession.  Standard operating procedure for the administration to deny there is a problem so they don't have to address it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That was cute.  I approve
> 
> Neither side will give you a definition.  The antilockdowners will say it’s synonymous with any restriction which closes anything because: a. That’s how you all defined it at first with your 10 people meeting and weed and alcohol shops open, b. Politically it’s a way to beat you over the head by tying you to China (which btw is where the idea were born), and c. Because otherwise y’all would use it to absolve yourselves of any responsibility as fauci has tried. The lockdowners won’t do it because it requires an admission that the things that worked were nz and australia and folks like you have been reluctant to go there for a variety of reasons (not the least of which would be everything was pointless and we failed)
> 
> the real truth, and I think on this you and I would agree, Is that (ever since the words define what is means left president clintons mouth) language has become part of the political wars and is useful only in advancing positions. The part we disagree on is that I’ve always Viewed this experience as political (which is what red pilled me) while you have always viewed this as a question of morality.


Neither side will give a definition?

Hogwash.  I'm perfectly willing to have a definition.  A lockdown is a set of regulations which requires most people to stay at home for most of the day.  All other sets of regulations are not lockdowns.

I agree that you are unwilling to have a definition.  

In that case, your peers are the people who can't define "is" and aren't sure what they mean by "woman".


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Neither side will give a definition?
> 
> Hogwash.  I'm perfectly willing to have a definition.  A lockdown is a set of regulations which requires most people to stay at home for most of the day.  All other sets of regulations are not lockdowns.
> 
> I agree that you are unwilling to have a definition.
> 
> In that case, your peers are the people who can't define "is" and aren't sure what they mean by "woman".


Did you think Los Angeles had a lockdown?   Or was that not a true lockdown because in addition to medical/markets/pharma, weed, alcohol, takeout, plumbers, aircon, pool repair, box stores, bike shops were open?  What about in fall 2020 when schools, Disneyland and offices were still shut but we were back to ourdoor dining....still a lockdown?

You just transferred the problem to "most"....is most 50%.  Here's a proposition: if you kid can't go to school, or you can't go to a wedding, it's a lockdown.


----------



## crush

*"I am honored by the recent outpouring of support from around the world as the day arrives when I must surrender to prison.*
*I took an oath to save lives, and my work has exposed government corruption, for which they are retaliating.*
*But we will never give up."   Dr. Gold ((she is Gold and will be rewarded for her bravery. We have so many liars. One dad actually said he was a Math teacher on this forum. Total bullshit. BTW, I might have some colorful words to help some you WTF)).*


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Did you think Los Angeles had a lockdown?   Or was that not a true lockdown because in addition to medical/markets/pharma, weed, alcohol, takeout, plumbers, aircon, pool repair, box stores, bike shops were open?  What about in fall 2020 when schools, Disneyland and offices were still shut but we were back to ourdoor dining....still a lockdown?
> 
> You just transferred the problem to "most"....is most 50%.  Here's a proposition: if you kid can't go to school, or you can't go to a wedding, it's a lockdown.


 p.s. I know you get all butt hurt whenever someone criticizes St. Fauci and you have to reflexively defend him, but it's becoming pretty hard for even you to do that with a straight face

Fauci yesterday: "I didn't recommend locking down anything"....goes on to say that was the CDC.

Fauci Oct 7, 2020: "I recommended to the President we shut down the country".

Now of course you'll argue a shut down is different than a lockdown, no?









						Fauci Says He Told Trump to 'Shut the Country Down'
					

"That was a very difficult decision because I knew it would have very serious economic consequences," he said.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Did you think Los Angeles had a lockdown?   Or was that not a true lockdown because in addition to medical/markets/pharma, weed, alcohol, takeout, plumbers, aircon, pool repair, box stores, bike shops were open?  What about in fall 2020 when schools, Disneyland and offices were still shut but we were back to ourdoor dining....still a lockdown?
> 
> You just transferred the problem to "most"....is most 50%.  Here's a proposition: if you kid can't go to school, or you can't go to a wedding, it's a lockdown.


I can’t tell you whether LA had a lockdown until we agree what the word means.

I am unwilling to accept your definition.   You just defined a school closure and a travel ban.  I asked you for a definition of a lockdown.

Hint- if the card rooms are still open 24/7, it’s not a lockdown.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I can’t tell you whether LA had a lockdown until we agree what the word means.
> 
> I am unwilling to accept your definition.   You just defined a school closure and a travel ban.  I asked you for a definition of a lockdown.
> 
> Hint- if the card rooms are still open 24/7, it’s not a lockdown.


"I can't tell you whether LA had a lockdown until you accept my definition"....err...that's a proposition (putting the cart before the horse) whereby any discussion is not possible.

I'm asking if LA in spring of 2020 meets YOUR definition of lockdown, or if LA in the fall of 2020 (schools/weddings prohibited) meets YOUR definition of lockdown, but as usual you duck the harder questions (particularly given this one is really straight forward).

I've already told you I think both meet the definition of lockdown.  I actually laiddown my test a long time ago for whether SoCal was in lockdown....if Disneyland was open....because the authorities couldn't afford for there to be pictures of kids smiling at Disneyland during a school day...the card tables is not a good marker because there were lots of technically illegal gambling operations going on during the time period.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "I can't tell you whether LA had a lockdown until you accept my definition"....err...that's a proposition (putting the cart before the horse) whereby any discussion is not possible.
> 
> I'm asking if LA in spring of 2020 meets YOUR definition of lockdown, or if LA in the fall of 2020 (schools/weddings prohibited) meets YOUR definition of lockdown, but as usual you duck the harder questions (particularly given this one is really straight forward).
> 
> I've already told you I think both meet the definition of lockdown.  I actually laiddown my test a long time ago for whether SoCal was in lockdown....if Disneyland was open....because the authorities couldn't afford for there to be pictures of kids smiling at Disneyland during a school day...the card tables is not a good marker because there were lots of technically illegal gambling operations going on during the time period.


I wasn’t in LA.  SCC had about 2 months of lockdown.  After that, people started going out and it wasn’t a lockdown.

Your “definition” isn’t a definition.  It is an attempt to beat people about the head with a term regardless of the facts of the situation.


----------



## crush

It's all BS folks. I will not respond to any psychopaths on this forum. They are a waste of my time now and I finally figured out what their plan is for all of us. Non psycho's are innocent babes and those who want to help fix this place will get big reward, trust me 









						Fake News Surfin' Bird Supercut
					






					rumble.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Your quote was from 2021.  They were talking about Delta.
> 
> Did you think they had superpowers and could see the future, thus knowing about BA.5 before it even evolved?


Brix stated they knew from the beginning….you and I both know it was simply divisive false rhetoric.

As for the superpowers comment.  Can you help us understand why they keep pushing boosters of the same old formula if it is useless against new strains like BA.5?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like the White House wants to redefine the word “recession”, huh?


Or the term “vaccine”


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Or the term “vaccine”


Or the term "secure" in reference to the border.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I wasn’t in LA.  SCC had about 2 months of lockdown.  After that, people started going out and it wasn’t a lockdown.
> 
> Your “definition” isn’t a definition.  It is an attempt to beat people about the head with a term regardless of the facts of the situation.


Still dancing I see.

It's a straight up question and I gave you the circumstances but you are refusing to say what in fact is a lockdown or what you mean by the word most....is it a lockdown, for example, if people can go walk in the park?  My son and I spent the time in the park training by ourselves or just picnicking.....that a lockdown?

People only beat you over the head with it when you deserve it.  It's not my fault you are getting constantly clobbered.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I wasn’t in LA.  SCC had about 2 months of lockdown.  After that, people started going out and it wasn’t a lockdown.
> 
> Your “definition” isn’t a definition.  It is an attempt to beat people about the head with a term regardless of the facts of the situation.


I believe your position is we didn't do "real" lockdowns so you can't say lockdowns didn't work.  That's largely irrelevant, we did what we did, call it lockdowns, restrictions, circle jerk or whatever.  They didn't work in relation to the costs associated with those restrictions.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Or the term "secure" in reference to the border.


"transitory"


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I believe your position is we didn't do "real" lockdowns so you can't say lockdowns didn't work.  That's largely irrelevant, we did what we did, call it lockdowns, restrictions, circle jerk or whatever.  They didn't work in relation to the costs associated with those restrictions.


Yet he still always dances around the proposition of whether he thought what NZ and Australia did was good (while at the same time saying indoor dining shutdowns would have done it)

It's again a function that he hasn't been doing politics and policy here....he's been doing morality and religion.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I believe your position is we didn't do "real" lockdowns so you can't say lockdowns didn't work.  That's largely irrelevant, we did what we did, call it lockdowns, restrictions, circle jerk or whatever.  They didn't work in relation to the costs associated with those restrictions.


I just find it obnoxious that every single covid restriction gets called a lockdown.

It's not a lockdown every time a clerk asks someone to pull their mask back over their nose.  That's a mask restriction, and a customer bring an a-hole about it.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I just find it obnoxious that every single covid restriction gets called a lockdown.
> 
> It's not a lockdown every time a clerk asks someone to pull their mask back over their nose.  That's a mask restriction, and a customer bring an a-hole about it.


Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think many people would consider mask mandates = a lockdown.  Where it gets trickier is the vax mandates.

Again, the test is socal at least is whether people are able to go to Disneyland.

And a reasonable test is whether people are able to attend weddings and schools.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Brix stated they knew from the beginning….you and I both know it was simply divisive false rhetoric.
> 
> As for the superpowers comment.  Can you help us understand why they keep pushing boosters of the same old formula if it is useless against new strains like BA.5?


I can't help you understand the out of date boosters.  Those should have been updated long ago.  

My impression is that Atlas and Birx are just telling a story where they get to be the hero.  I don't think either of them knew much about the expected mutation rate.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I can't help you understand the out of date boosters.  Those should have been updated long ago.
> 
> My impression is that Atlas and Birx are just telling a story where they get to be the hero.  I don't think either of them knew much about the expected mutation rate.


Evil goalie probably knows more than I but the issue with the boosters from what I understand, in the most basic of terms, is that the omicron kept mutating faster than they could test it, forcing them back to square one each time they got to the launch pad in compiling data.

I agree with your impression of Atlas and Birx that they are telling a story where they get to be the hero.  But you can broadly put people into the "it will be over by summer 2021" camp (of which you were a part) and those that weren't (Atlas was probably one of the first as he pointed out there would likely be a likely animal reserve or may have even been one already if lab leak is incorrect and its origin was animal...I certainly wasn't there until a little before Delta).  Birx has the additional motivation in that she is seeking redemption; Atlas the additional complication that a lot of it was Trump's fault because he was stupid but Atlas didn't want to come out and attack him.


----------



## crush

@Grace T.


----------



## cheer4kids

Grace T. said:


> Kinda like the White House wants to redefine the word “recession”, huh?


Kind of like this thread's title - "Vaccine", too. They had to redefine "vaccine" in order for the jab to fit the definition. It's not a vaccine. It's why the jabbed are still getting and spreading Covid.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I just find it obnoxious that every single covid restriction gets called a lockdown.
> 
> It's not a lockdown every time a clerk asks someone to pull their mask back over their nose.  That's a mask restriction, and a customer bring an a-hole about it.


For me a lockdown is any forced closure of schools, businesses or activities.  That is a lockdown measure.   In general, I would say our lockdowns were significant but not extreme in the case of some countries where you couldn't leave your house.  However, the degree to which there was a lockdown is largely irrelevant to me. 

Masks and vaccines aren't lockdowns and I don't think anyone claims they were.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Evil goalie probably knows more than I but the issue with the boosters from what I understand, in the most basic of terms, is that the omicron kept mutating faster than they could test it, forcing them back to square one each time they got to the launch pad in compiling data.
> 
> I agree with your impression of Atlas and Birx that they are telling a story where they get to be the hero.  But you can broadly put people into the "it will be over by summer 2021" camp (of which you were a part) and those that weren't (Atlas was probably one of the first as he pointed out there would likely be a likely animal reserve or may have even been one already if lab leak is incorrect and its origin was animal...I certainly wasn't there until a little before Delta).  Birx has the additional motivation in that she is seeking redemption; Atlas the additional complication that a lot of it was Trump's fault because he was stupid but Atlas didn't want to come out and attack him.


I understand the claim that omicron was mutating faster than we could test.   But, as long as we were stuck being out of date, it does seem that we could at least be slightly less out of date.

Maybe the cross-immunity doesn’t work well for that argument.  Beyond what I know.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> For me a lockdown is any forced closure of schools, businesses or activities.  That is a lockdown measure.   In general, I would say our lockdowns were significant but not extreme in the case of some countries where you couldn't leave your house.  However, the degree to which there was a lockdown is largely irrelevant to me.
> 
> Masks and vaccines aren't lockdowns and I don't think anyone claims they were.


Irrelevant?

A ban on indoor dining is clearly not the same as a shelter in place order where you can’t go for a walk.  One rule offers you an outdoor table.  The other bars you from leaving your house.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Irrelevant?


I can appreciate the significant difference but, yep, to me largely irrelevant.   I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with that sentiment.

I'm not saying lockdown and other measures didn't provide some health benefit, but I believe the costs far outweigh that benefit.  I also still believe that blanket policies were grossly misguided.  Combine that with the obvious credibility issues and you have a giant failure.  Its one thing to not have the best data and to make good faith policies at the time, its a whole other issue to have the data and mislead the public.  I can excuse the former but not the latter.  I also can't excuse basing policy on lab results over real world results.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Irrelevant?
> 
> A ban on indoor dining is clearly not the same as a shelter in place order where you can’t go for a walk.  One rule offers you an outdoor table.  The other bars you from leaving your house.


Italy at the peak. Our good friend went home to take care of her mother in Italy for a few months and said it was taken very seriously.


----------



## crush

There was never a lockdown. Some of us were locked out because these people have been cheating and lying. No mask= no service ((locked out of eating and drinking at the bar)). Then it went to, no jabs=fired or locked out of working to pay mortgage and bills.  Most said, "F it, give me the jabs so I can have my life back." I know 11 people who have died from natural causes since all this went down. Families even locked you out of family get together because of the Bullshit lies and fear based asshats. Hospitals locked you out to see loved one's before they died. These are ruthless psychopaths were all dealing with. All they do is lie, cheat, steal and lie some more and then project what they do back at you and laugh at you. We see them here. Well, this is not funny and what comes around goes around. They want your kids and you ALL will soon find out why.  Some kids are locked out of school unless they wear a mask and take all jabs.  Crazy times we live in.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

I see bald ref sees the horror Italians went through as funny.


----------



## crush

The worst part in all this is to see your co-workers get fired and most stood by and watched their pals lose everything. Some just put their heads down and went back to work. Owners of companies obeyed their masters and implemented this bullshit as well. Churches preached jab/mask or no fellowship. Appalling and weak sauce, moo!!


----------



## crush

Breaking News: Biden's DOJ Opens Investigation Into Pres. Trump For Alleged Attempt To Overturn 2020 Election.
Hunter? President Joe? This is gnarly stuff. Let's see how much hate you have for Trump this time. All eyes are watching everyone of you. Choose wisely frens. I just talked to my pal and he said all of this is Trumps fault. He wants his ass in jail and he wants his normal life back.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I can appreciate the significant difference but, yep, to me largely irrelevant.   I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with that sentiment.
> 
> I'm not saying lockdown and other measures didn't provide some health benefit, but I believe the costs far outweigh that benefit.  I also still believe that blanket policies were grossly misguided.  Combine that with the obvious credibility issues and you have a giant failure.  Its one thing to not have the best data and to make good faith policies at the time, its a whole other issue to have the data and mislead the public.  I can excuse the former but not the latter.  I also can't excuse basing policy on lab results over real world results.


You probably draw more of a distinction than you realize.

Closing schools and cancelling senior citizen cruises count equally as "lockdowns", by your definition.

I would guess that you do not consider them to be equally justified.

.


----------



## espola

_





						The Huanan market was the epicenter of SARS-CoV-2 emergence
					

Geographical clustering of the earliest known COVID-19 cases and the proximity of positive environmental samples to live-animal vendors suggest that the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the site of origin of the COVID-19 pandemic.




					zenodo.org
				



_


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You probably draw more of a distinction than you realize.
> 
> Closing schools and cancelling senior citizen cruises count equally as "lockdowns", by your definition.
> 
> I would guess that you do not consider them to be equally justified.
> 
> .


Like I said before, I can appreciate the difference between your hypothetical scenario, however, I still would been against forced closure of both.  Difference being I'd highly recommend healthy kids attend in person school, while I would not have recommend seniors going on a cruise pre-vaccine and therapeutics.   A senior can make their own risk assessments and personal choices. Not my job or the government's.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Like I said before, I can appreciate the difference between your hypothetical scenario, however, I still would been against forced closure of both.  Difference being I'd highly recommend healthy kids attend in person school, while I would not have recommend seniors going on a cruise pre-vaccine and therapeutics.   A senior can make their own risk assessments and personal choices. Not my job or the government's.


If you really think we should have kept cruises open for senior citizens, then you and I are just on different planets.

Those things were giant floating petri dishes.  A thousand people share air on the ship, then each couple brings it back to their retirement community.  You couldn't ask for a more efficient way to spread a respiratory disease among people 55-75.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you really think we should have kept cruises open for senior citizens, then you and I are just on different planets.
> 
> Those things were giant floating petri dishes.  A thousand people share air on the ship, then each couple brings it back to their retirement community.  You couldn't ask for a more efficient way to spread a respiratory disease among people 55-75.


I think we established long ago that we're on different planets (although I'd say different countries).  I suspect we have completely different life experiences and certainly sources of income which shape our perspectives.

Cruise ships certainly appear to be floating petri dishes, no doubt.  Norovirus would be a far greater concern to me.  Fortunately, the idea of being stuck on a floating hotel sounds dreadful to me. Not happening.

A senior could get the virus anywhere in public.  I would certainly hope that a retirement home would have protocols in place to test for Covid before allowing a resident to return from extended travel.  BTW, the CDC has ended its Covid cruise rules.


----------



## Grace T.

Beverly Hills, Pasadena, Long Beach and calabasas have all said they are going to defy the ferrer mask mandate. I don’t see how in those circumstances she’ll make a go of it and will have to climb down. She’s left herself some room to roll back if cases drop dramatically Thursday, but while they might fall I doubt it will be dramatically.


----------



## baldref

Hüsker Dü said:


> I see bald ref sees the horror Italians went through as funny.


I see your ignorance, hypocrisy, and moronic posts as funny. Very funny. Keep it up please.


----------



## espola

baldref said:


> I see your ignorance, hypocrisy, and moronic posts as funny. Very funny. Keep it up please.


That's an inadequate defense.  You laughed at "Italy at the peak. Our good friend went home to take care of her mother in Italy for a few months and said it was taken very seriously."


----------



## crush

*Dr. Shady!*


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I would guess that you do not consider them to be equally justified


To set the record straight you were a hardcore advocate of closing schools.

That despite the data clearly showings young people have no risk.

As we review the terrible outcomes of all these bad policies we see you supported pretty much every one.


----------



## Desert Hound

Speaking of definitions ... Always interesting to see most of the press and how they report have little daylight between what they say and D talking points.

And now...


----------



## crush




----------



## Desert Hound

Desert Hound said:


> Speaking of definitions ... Always interesting to see most of the press and how they report have little daylight between what they say and D talking points.
> View attachment 14405
> And now...
> View attachment 14406


And the above example also relates to how the press largely reported on COVID, vaxxes, closures, etc. ...ie a rather one sided view.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> That's an inadequate defense.  You laughed at "Italy at the peak. Our good friend went home to take care of her mother in Italy for a few months and said it was taken very seriously."


Yeah I’m not seeing what part of that is laughable under the guidelines he set? Maybe he doesn’t understand having friends they aren’t “murican”?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

baldref said:


> I see your ignorance, hypocrisy, and moronic posts as funny. Very funny. Keep it up please.


You see it? But like LE you aren’t able to illustrate (use words) what you think you see. You are only capable of a visceral response.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> You see it? But like LE you aren’t able to illustrate (use words) what you think you see. You are only capable of a visceral response.


Pot meet kettle?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Pot meet kettle?


Not being able to express one’s self must be frustrating.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I think we established long ago that we're on different planets (although I'd say different countries).  I suspect we have completely different life experiences and certainly sources of income which shape our perspectives.
> 
> Cruise ships certainly appear to be floating petri dishes, no doubt.  Norovirus would be a far greater concern to me.  Fortunately, the idea of being stuck on a floating hotel sounds dreadful to me. Not happening.
> 
> A senior could get the virus anywhere in public.  I would certainly hope that a retirement home would have protocols in place to test for Covid before allowing a resident to return from extended travel.  BTW, the CDC has ended its Covid cruise rules.


At the time we closed the cruise lines, no retirement home had access to covid tests.

We just didn't have enough to waste them on people who weren't clearly sick.  Not even if they were the governor of New York. 

Still want to keep Princess Cruise lines open in April 2020?   There was no way to test people when they got on the boat, and no way to test them when they returned.  If the line is open, people get off the boat and bring covid straight to the retirement home.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> At the time we closed the cruise lines, no retirement home had access to covid tests.
> 
> We just didn't have enough to waste them on people who weren't clearly sick.  Not even if they were the governor of New York.
> 
> Still want to keep Princess Cruise lines open in April 2020?   There was no way to test people when they got on the boat, and no way to test them when they returned.  If the line is open, people get off the boat and bring covid straight to the retirement home.


It wouldn't have given me any heartburn to close cruise ships in April 2020.  Like I said I give the first couple of months' policies a mulligan, including school closures.   Maybe its more correct for me to say I opposed lockdowns that lasted more than the first couple of months.

However, you seem to make the assumption that without government intervention that their would have been no protocols followed by business.  That couldn't have been farther from the truth as evidenced by essential businesses that took significant precautions even if they weren't mandated to do so.  We were an essential business (although I'd argue far less essential than schools) we took precautions beyond what was required.  Restaurants were more than willing to take the business outside if allowed among other precautions to remain open.   Were there some businesses that might not have done so, sure those businesses that are not reputable and don't understand risk management.  That happened whether they were forced by the government or not to close.  Plenty of non-essential businesses open during the lockdowns, some who lived paycheck to paycheck had no choice, like many hairdressers.

I'm fairly confident that cruise ships would have delayed trips in the early months of the pandemic for risk management purposes, they didn't need the negative publicity of mass infections or deaths on their ships.  A prudent business policy would have been a requirement for passengers to provide a negative Covid test.

To sum it up your apparent assumption is that businesses would have done nothing without government intervention to protect customers and employees is erroneous.

Your dependent on the government for your livelihood, so you sound more comfortable with government intervention into others lives as a result.  Government and particularly bureaucrats are often a hindrance in my livelihood, so that's why we sound like were from different planets.  Reality is that were just from different backgrounds.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not being able to express one’s self must be frustrating.


Ha…you tell me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> It wouldn't have given me any heartburn to close cruise ships in April 2020.  Like I said I give the first couple of months' policies a mulligan, including school closures.   Maybe its more correct for me to say I opposed lockdowns that lasted more than the first couple of months.
> 
> However, you seem to make the assumption that without government intervention that their would have been no protocols followed by business.  That couldn't have been farther from the truth as evidenced by essential businesses that took significant precautions even if they weren't mandated to do so.  We were an essential business (although I'd argue far less essential than schools) we took precautions beyond what was required.  Restaurants were more than willing to take the business outside if allowed among other precautions to remain open.   Were there some businesses that might not have done so, sure those businesses that are not reputable and don't understand risk management.  That happened whether they were forced by the government or not to close.  Plenty of non-essential businesses open during the lockdowns, some who lived paycheck to paycheck had no choice, like many hairdressers.
> 
> I'm fairly confident that cruise ships would have delayed trips in the early months of the pandemic for risk management purposes, they didn't need the negative publicity of mass infections or deaths on their ships.  A prudent business policy would have been a requirement for passengers to provide a negative Covid test.
> 
> To sum it up your apparent assumption is that businesses would have done nothing without government intervention to protect customers and employees is erroneous.
> 
> Your dependent on the government for your livelihood, so you sound more comfortable with government intervention into others lives as a result.  Government and particularly bureaucrats are often a hindrance in my livelihood, so that's why we sound like were from different planets.  Reality is that were just from different backgrounds.


Tough living in a society with all the rules and laws and such. Price of doing business.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It wouldn't have given me any heartburn to close cruise ships in April 2020.  Like I said I give the first couple of months' policies a mulligan, including school closures.   Maybe its more correct for me to say I opposed lockdowns that lasted more than the first couple of months.
> 
> However, you seem to make the assumption that without government intervention that their would have been no protocols followed by business.  That couldn't have been farther from the truth as evidenced by essential businesses that took significant precautions even if they weren't mandated to do so.  We were an essential business (although I'd argue far less essential than schools) we took precautions beyond what was required.  Restaurants were more than willing to take the business outside if allowed among other precautions to remain open.   Were there some businesses that might not have done so, sure those businesses that are not reputable and don't understand risk management.  That happened whether they were forced by the government or not to close.  Plenty of non-essential businesses open during the lockdowns, some who lived paycheck to paycheck had no choice, like many hairdressers.
> 
> I'm fairly confident that cruise ships would have delayed trips in the early months of the pandemic for risk management purposes, they didn't need the negative publicity of mass infections or deaths on their ships.  A prudent business policy would have been a requirement for passengers to provide a negative Covid test.
> 
> To sum it up your apparent assumption is that businesses would have done nothing without government intervention to protect customers and employees is erroneous.
> 
> Your dependent on the government for your livelihood, so you sound more comfortable with government intervention into others lives as a result.  Government and particularly bureaucrats are often a hindrance in my livelihood, so that's why we sound like were from different planets.  Reality is that were just from different backgrounds.


I agree that the cruise lines would have closed as soon as the lawyers realized that the liability risk from transmission was higher than the liability risk from cancelling people's vacations.

But this is still a heavy handed government body forcing the issue.   The court system is also a government bureaucracy.  Courts are just a worse way to create rules.

At least with administrative bodies, they try to tell you the rules before you have to follow them.  Legal liability cases are not so kind.  The courts can clarify the rules long after you already made your decision.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Ha…you tell me.


Do you have that issue as well?


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tough living in a society with all the rules and laws and such. Price of doing business.


Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses.  Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.

There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.



dad4 said:


> I agree that the cruise lines would have closed as soon as the lawyers realized that the liability risk from transmission was higher than the liability risk from cancelling people's vacations.
> 
> But this is still a heavy handed government body forcing the issue.   The court system is also a government bureaucracy.  Courts are just a worse way to create rules.
> 
> At least with administrative bodies, they try to tell you the rules before you have to follow them.  Legal liability cases are not so kind.  The courts can clarify the rules long after you already made your decision.


The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses.  Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.
> 
> There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.
> 
> 
> The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.


You know it's hard out here for a pimp . . .


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You know it's hard out here for a pimp . . .


True dat.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses.  Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.
> 
> There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.
> 
> 
> The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.


I don’t see much daylight between “mandatory” and “guidance, but liability will bankrupt you if you don’t.”

Either way, the government is deciding what needs to close. 

For that matter, when there is no guidance, but the courts claim the right to assess multi-million dollar damages, the government is still deciding what to close.  They’re just doing it after the fact.


----------



## Grace T.

If true, this moves it from the private actor sphere into the government sphere and is a clear violation of the first amendment.









						How the CDC Coordinated With Big Tech To Censor Americans
					

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention coordinated with social media companies and Google to censor users who expressed skepticism or criticism of COVID-19 vaccines, according to internal communications obtained by America First Legal and shared exclusively with the Washington Free Beacon.




					freebeacon.com
				




And if true....seriously how much worse can the govt response (or at least the perception of it) get.....if we are going to be prepared for the next one, they'll have to burn it to the ground and start over but I don't think we'll get that from the current President (however long he may last in the job).


----------



## Grace T.

The US is about to declare a public health emergency for monkeypox.  The declaration would authorize state depts of health to do the same, thereby given them the extraordinary powers to rule by decree we've seen with COVID.

Given the failure of public health to contain it, and given that it's eventually going to break into the mainstream even as a standard STD, prediction: people with kids in elementary and middle school right now will be required to smallpox vaccinated before attending college.


----------



## Grace T.

Also a political note: Yang and a few other former Ds and Rs (nevertrumpers) are getting ready to announce a new political party called "Forward".  Who knows if it will go the way of other third parties such as Reform when Perot left, but their hope is to form a Macron like center.  My opinion is it misreads the times: it appeals to the establishmentarians who are under seige from both sides and will hasten the transformation of the R party into America First.  It will cut more heavily into the Ds since the shift from D to R (particularly among minority voters) has been among the working class (Asians perhaps excepted).  They won't be able to run away from the Ds since many of these people were very pro COVID restrictions and are also pro climate change activism.  Macron only worked because he was able to play France first and the far left against one another in a two cycle vote.









						Former Republicans and Democrats form new third U.S. political party
					

Dozens of former Republican and Democratic officials announced on Wednesday a new national political third party to appeal to millions of voters they say are dismayed with what they see as America's dysfunctional two-party system.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Grace T.

El Segundo joins the defiance of the proposed LA Mask mandate.....that's 5 cities now.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Also a political note: Yang and a few other former Ds and Rs (nevertrumpers) are getting ready to announce a new political party called "Forward".  Who knows if it will go the way of other third parties such as Reform when Perot left, but their hope is to form a Macron like center.  My opinion is it misreads the times: it appeals to the establishmentarians who are under seige from both sides and will hasten the transformation of the R party into America First.  It will cut more heavily into the Ds since the shift from D to R (particularly among minority voters) has been among the working class (Asians perhaps excepted).  They won't be able to run away from the Ds since many of these people were very pro COVID restrictions and are also pro climate change activism.  Macron only worked because he was able to play France first and the far left against one another in a two cycle vote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Republicans and Democrats form new third U.S. political party
> 
> 
> Dozens of former Republican and Democratic officials announced on Wednesday a new national political third party to appeal to millions of voters they say are dismayed with what they see as America's dysfunctional two-party system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Any thoughts on what direction Tulsi Gabbard will go?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Any thoughts on what direction Tulsi Gabbard will go?


She's antiestablishmentarian and very opposed to further U.S. involvement in the war in Ukraine.  I doubt she joins them given the list of people in Forward currently, since they tend globalist.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> Any thoughts on what direction Tulsi Gabbard will go?


What do the Chinese want?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This is sad and my heart goes out to anyone who catches this nasty virus.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do the Chinese want?


What they always want - cover and money. So, Biden, Newsome, or some other D and allow Fauci to handpick his successor.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Statement form The President of the United States of America. Also, make sure to get all your boosters. Dude did not blink yesterday and now has brown eyes. Oh boy, I love you all, even the psychopaths on the forum.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

kickingandscreaming said:


> What they always want - cover and money. So, Biden, Newsome, or some other D and allow Fauci to handpick his successor.


What does that have to do with Tulsi Gabbard?


----------



## crush

*US*


*THEM ((+10% commission to the Big Guy))*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

GDP numbers out today, white house protests notwithstanding, show we are in a technical recession.  However, the news is actually much worse for two reasons.  One, the fall in GDP is not precipitous enough to indicate a rapid receding of inflationary trends...some of the big banks are betting that maybe they got it right this time and even though we are in for a period of stagflation the powers that be will make a soft landing of it...but it means we are in a period of stagflation for the immediate future.  But the other thing it notes its a moderate decline in consumer and business spending and more dangerously business investment...it's an indication the trend will accelerate in the future and then the question becomes whether events overtake themselves and skid right on by the so-called soft landing.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> El Segundo joins the defiance of the proposed LA Mask mandate.....that's 5 cities now.


Not the first time you’ve been a cheerleader for undermining your own public health department.

I know.  This doesn’t actually count as undermining public health, because you are right and the scientists are all wrong, yet again.  After all, you have a high school science education and zero years experience in the field, so you’re clearly qualified to make the assessment.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not the first time you’ve been a cheerleader for undermining your own public health department.
> 
> I know.  This doesn’t actually count as undermining public health, because you are right and the scientists are all wrong, yet again.  After all, you have a high school science education and zero years experience in the field, so you’re clearly qualified to make the assessment.


Not the first time you've chosen to say the experts are those that agree with you and the experts (including the health advisors from those cities, one of whom BTW is a dear friend of mine) that disagree with you are "undermining".

I know.  Typical of you.


----------



## crush

NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Not the first time you've chosen to say the experts are those that agree with you and the experts (including the health advisors from those cities, one of whom BTW is a dear friend of mine) that disagree with you are "undermining".
> 
> I know.  Typical of you.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Apparently the LA Health experts are smarter than the health experts from every other city.


----------



## Grace T.

Masks working


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552684991234166792


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> View attachment 14424


Putin”s recession


----------



## crush

Dr. Simone Gold in her last interview before going to a Florida federal prison due to a tyrannical judicial system in Washington, DC. All for a misdemeanor trespass charge. Hunter ((Barabbas)) walks around the country doing crack, selling crack, doing deals with the CCP for the Big Guy and carries a loaded gun and so much more. Yes, we have psychopaths on the forum that are so excited that a great Dr. who tells the truth goes to prison. Someone from the inside open a 20,000 pound magnetic door. Cops told them all, "come on in" and Antifa was in disguise and went first as did Mr. Epps. Epps wife works for Dominion. The choice is clear today more ever. Do you want Christ or Barabbas released? I already know most of your answers. You get what you asked for and that is 100% the way life is. 
Yet Dr, Gold is filled with hope, resilience and patriotism.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Putin”s recession


Lucifer's recession actually brother and most have been bought, bribed and blackmailed by IT!  The BIG Guy sold us all out and you see these psychopaths on the forum. They attacked me for 4 years and anyone who has been following can see their colors. Psycho has no remorse, no sense of the truth, no empathy, they cheat, lie and steal and then say your liar, on medication, a dumb dumb, damn fool and so much more. I fight these fuckers because they lie, cheat and steal from us and heap abuse on our female soccer players. No more!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> Masks working
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552684991234166792


No the masks work. Those infections came from people going to a restaurant or bar.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Truth from UK. Psychopath and his pals won't share the Truth.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Not the first time you've chosen to say the experts are those that agree with you and the experts (including the health advisors from those cities, one of whom BTW is a dear friend of mine) that disagree with you are "undermining".
> 
> I know.  Typical of you.


The experts, in this case, are CDC, NIH, university epidemiologists, and county health officials.

City health advisors in LA county, in most cases, do not count.

For most cities, the advisor was hired for the sole purpose of helping the city opt out of county rules.   

So, when they later issue some statement in favor of opting out, this has no weight.  They're just saying what they were hired to say.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The experts, in this case, are CDC, NIH, university epidemiologists, and county health officials.
> 
> City health advisors in LA county, in most cases, do not count.
> 
> For most cities, the advisor was hired for the sole purpose of helping the city opt out of county rules.
> 
> So, when they later issue some statement in favor of opting out, this has no weight.  They're just saying what they were hired to say.


My friend has been working for her particular city for close to 5 years now and was one of the biggest pro mask advocates around early on (to keep kids in school in the fall of 2020) but go on....cling to your religious beliefs....with every word you just prove my ongoing point about you: you believe the establishment experts you agree with are the "experts"....everyone else is a snake oil salesman, regardless of their credentials.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> No the masks work. Those infections came from people going to a restaurant or bar.


Deaths per 100K:

Japan: 25
Arizona: 423

What makes you think Japan needs your advice on this matter?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> My friend has been working for her particular city for close to 5 years now and was one of the biggest pro mask advocates around early on (to keep kids in school in the fall of 2020) but go on....cling to your religious beliefs....with every word you just prove my ongoing point about you: you believe the establishment experts you agree with are the "experts"....everyone else is a snake oil salesman, regardless of their credentials.


You remembered the religious accusations, but forgot to include some kind of Catholic slur.  

Saint Dad4, Virgin Mary, or some such.

You're losing your touch.

She was right about masks and schools, btw.  Different argument with BA.5, because R is so high.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You remembered the religious accusations, but forgot to include some kind of Catholic slur.
> 
> Saint Dad4, Virgin Mary, or some such.
> 
> You're losing your touch.
> 
> She was right about masks and schools, btw.  Different argument with BA.5, because R is so high.


As a former Catholic, I resemble that remark.  They always are most bitter about the apostates (if you see yourself resembling that remark, I assure you its entirely on purpose).

It's funny you make your own argument against yourself.  Rather than make the argument "masks used to work really well" but the R got so high, you choose to die on the cloth mask hill now.  How many angels are dancing on that particular pin please?


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> As a former Catholic, I resemble that remark.  They always are most bitter about the apostates (if you see yourself resembling that remark, I assure you its entirely on purpose).
> 
> It's funny you make your own argument against yourself.  Rather than make the argument "masks used to work really well" but the R got so high, you choose to die on the cloth mask hill now.  How many angels are dancing on that particular pin please?


Every mystery and everything we need to know why were here is under the Vatican. Some day everything that has been hidden will be reveled. All will be exposed for all to see. Were all 100% innocent ((Just like Andy Dufresne from Shawshank)). We have been lied to by Science Magicians and Health liars. They also use religion to divide us and then start fucking wars to send our kids to bleed out on the battle field. I promise all will be shown to us, if we make it.......lol. Were dealing with "The Mr. Evil" and I don't say that lightly. I love you Grace T.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Deaths per 100K:
> 
> Japan: 25
> Arizona: 423
> 
> What makes you think Japan needs your advice on this matter?



Going for all the hits today?  Now the correlation does not equal causation fallacy?

In any case, when you've even lost the pro-lockdown, pro-mask LA Times, it's time to move on









						A new L.A. mask mandate would have less value at this stage of the pandemic, some experts say
					

Despite plans to reinstate a mask mandate in Los Angeles County, the value of widespread masking isn't what it used to be.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Going for all the hits today?  Now the correlation does not equal causation fallacy?
> 
> In any case, when you've even lost the pro-lockdown, pro-mask LA Times, it's time to move on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new L.A. mask mandate would have less value at this stage of the pandemic, some experts say
> 
> 
> Despite plans to reinstate a mask mandate in Los Angeles County, the value of widespread masking isn't what it used to be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


And just like that LA stands down on it's mask mandate

"Now his failure is complete"


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Going for all the hits today?  Now the correlation does not equal causation fallacy?
> 
> In any case, when you've even lost the pro-lockdown, pro-mask LA Times, it's time to move on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new L.A. mask mandate would have less value at this stage of the pandemic, some experts say
> 
> 
> Despite plans to reinstate a mask mandate in Los Angeles County, the value of widespread masking isn't what it used to be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


So, when you point to a single Japanese data point, it's valid.  When I reply with a different Japanese data point, it's a logical fallacy?

I'd love to hear your explanation for why your single day, single country snapshot is more relevant than the cumulative data for the exact same country.



Grace T. said:


> Masks working
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552684991234166792


----------



## Brav520

Grace T. said:


> And just like that LA stands down on it's mask mandate
> 
> "Now his failure is complete"


The Science of upcoming elections


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> As a former Catholic, I resemble that remark.  They always are most bitter about the apostates (if you see yourself resembling that remark, I assure you its entirely on purpose).
> 
> It's funny you make your own argument against yourself.  Rather than make the argument "masks used to work really well" but the R got so high, you choose to die on the cloth mask hill now.  How many angels are dancing on that particular pin please?


Cloth?  Upgrade.

I just think that, on balance, a 30% reduction to R is worth the inconvenience of masks.

R0 is high for BA-5, but Rt isn't.  If Rt were high, you'd see sewer numbers doubling every day or two.  Around here, they are flat, if not falling.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So, when you point to a single Japanese data point, it's valid.  When I reply with a different Japanese data point, it's a logical fallacy?
> 
> I'd love to hear your explanation for why your single day, single country snapshot is more relevant than the cumulative data for the exact same country.


You know how the causation fallacy works no....it's easier to disprove the negative.

If I claim masks work, but then cases are skyrocketing in the place where I chose as an example, it's a clear example of how masks don't work, at least under said broad definition, so now I have to explain away why.

If I claim cases are low because of masks, however, that's a fallacy because something else might have caused it.

Similarly, if I claim treats work to keep dogs happy, if my dog is grumpy after I've given him a treat, it goes to show that treats do not in fact work to keep dogs happy because there is a clear exception...I now have to qualify my statement somehow (in the afternoon, after a nap, only corgis etc).

But if I claim my dog is happy because I gave him a treat, that is not necessarily the case because my dog may be happy for other reasons, and not just the treat.  Now, you can argue that the most obvious reason why the dog is happy is because I just gave him a treat (using Occam's razor) but I can also argue he's happy because I just walked through the door.


----------



## Happened again

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Agree with that part.  Meant to be a "buy a little time for heroics if at death's door" sort of application.  But expanded to be "Your Covid's not clearing up, well, let's try this".  Which (just my opinion) maybe pushing  people whose immune systems are poised in the right way towards long term, systemic/neurological outcomes.  Again, just my opinion there.


Pfizer  and the FDA aren't  in a good spot with paxlovid.  Tjhe rebound makes it a tricky RX - 5 days, relapse then how many more days?  Tricky indeed.  Trials halted on standard risk  people since it didn't show much benefit.  Drug resistancy  is not a good thing but appears to be the case.  We will see.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> Pfizer  and the FDA aren't  in a good spot with paxlovid.  Tjhe rebound makes it a tricky RX - 5 days, relapse then how many more days?  Tricky indeed.  Trials halted on standard risk  people since it didn't show much benefit.  Drug resistancy  is not a good thing but appears to be the case.  We will see.


Have monoclonal antibodies fallen out of favor, if so why? Efficacy? Pfizer has a greater influence on the powers that be?

Only anecdotal, but those I know that received monoclonal antibodies swear by them.  Although if I'm remembering correctly that was to treat Delta.  Maybe because Omicron isn't very serious monoclonals are unnecessary?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Now, you can argue that the most obvious reason why the dog is happy is because I just gave him a treat (using Occam's razor) but I can also argue he's happy because I just walked through the door.


Hold it.  You give your dog treats using Occam's razor?


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Have monoclonal antibodies fallen out of favor, if so why? Efficacy? Pfizer has a greater influence on the powers that be?
> 
> Only anecdotal, but those I know that received monoclonal antibodies swear by them.  Although if I'm remembering correctly that was to treat Delta.  Maybe because Omicron isn't very serious monoclonals are unnecessary?


A few reasons (there are other reasons).  They are logistically more of a challenge to administer.   They aren't very effective against  Omicron and variants.  They were extremely effective early on.  The FDA has taken them off the table.

From a $$ POV pills are easier to produce and easier to prescribe/take.


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Hold it.  You give your dog treats using Occam's razor?


 Only if its the version without the K and he'll turn his nose up at the ch kind.  He's a bad dog.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Only if its the version without the K and he'll turn his nose up at the ch kind.  He's a bad dog.


As a tangent here...does Occam's razor apply here when there are two reasonable explanations?


----------



## dad4

Brav520 said:


> The Science of upcoming elections





Grace T. said:


> You know how the causation fallacy works no....it's easier to disprove the negative.
> 
> If I claim masks work, but then cases are skyrocketing in the place where I chose as an example, it's a clear example of how masks don't work, at least under said broad definition, so now I have to explain away why.
> 
> If I claim cases are low because of masks, however, that's a fallacy because something else might have caused it.
> 
> Similarly, if I claim treats work to keep dogs happy, if my dog is grumpy after I've given him a treat, it goes to show that treats do not in fact work to keep dogs happy because there is a clear exception...I now have to qualify my statement somehow (in the afternoon, after a nap, only corgis etc).
> 
> But if I claim my dog is happy because I gave him a treat, that is not necessarily the case because my dog may be happy for other reasons, and not just the treat.  Now, you can argue that the most obvious reason why the dog is happy is because I just gave him a treat (using Occam's razor) but I can also argue he's happy because I just walked through the door.


Word spam again.

A single data point can only dismiss a single cause hypothesis.  

It fails miserably when there are multiple causes.

Example:

H0: avoiding donuts helps you lose weight.  
Ha: avoiding donuts has no impact on weight.
Evidence: yesterday, I ate a pound cake instead of my usual donuts.  I still gained weight.
Bad conclusion: donuts have no impact on weight 
Correct conclusion;: donuts are not the only cause of weight gain.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> As a tangent here...does Occam's razor apply here when there are two reasonable explanations?


I suppose it depends how one is using it.  Philosophically it has to be used as between 2 because otherwise you can't do a comparison.  The only thing that need be shown is that one explanation is far more likely and obvious than the other.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> I suppose it depends how one is using it.  Philosophically it has to be used as between 2 because otherwise you can't do a comparison.  The only thing that need be shown is that one explanation is far more likely and obvious than the other.


I would like to think our dog likes both treats and me walking through the door....of course I could just be fooling myself.


----------



## dad4

NorCalDad said:


> I would like to think our dog likes both treats and me walking through the door....of course I could just be fooling myself.


Confirmation bias is fine, as long as it jumps up and licks your face.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Word spam again.
> 
> A single data point can only dismiss a single cause hypothesis.
> 
> It fails miserably when there are multiple causes.
> 
> Example:
> 
> H0: avoiding donuts helps you lose weight.
> Ha: avoiding donuts has no impact on weight.
> Evidence: yesterday, I ate a pound cake instead of my usual donuts.  I still gained weight.
> Bad conclusion: donuts have no impact on weight
> Correct conclusion;: donuts are not the only cause of weight gain.


Flawed logic....again...sigh.

Your "correct conclusion" is not proven by the syllogism.  You've committed the same error (again).  You listed nothing in the syllogism that goes to prove that donuts caused weight gain.  You also haven't shown that pound cake increases weight (unless the pound cake is the only thing that you ate yesterday).  While "donuts have no impact on weight" is a bad conclusion, now you just avoided the test because the test wasn't with donuts.  You have failed to prove that "donuts are not the only cause of weight gain" because you haven't proven that "donuts cause weight gain"....you are making an assumption of facts not in evidence (which you may absolutely be convinced is true and may in fact be true but you haven't proven). You have set up a test with poundcake when you needed to do it with donuts.

Here's how it's properly done:

A1: avoiding donuts helps you lose weight
E1: I ate a donut and still lost weight.
Disproven conclusion: Avoiding donuts alone is the only thing that can help you lose weight.
Bad conclusion: Eating donuts help you lose weight
Good conclusion: Avoiding donuts is not solely responsible for weight loss.

Guess you are great at math, bad at logic...did I ever tell you I got a perfect score on the Lsat (it's mostly a logic and reasoning test)   Now your out of your element on my turf.  It's not only bad logic but it's bad science: your evidence has nothing to do with the assertion trying to be proven.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> I would like to think our dog likes both treats and me walking through the door....of course I could just be fooling myself.


That's why Occam's razor is sloppy.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Flawed logic....again...sigh.
> 
> Your "correct conclusion" is not proven by the syllogism.  You've committed the same error (again).  You listed nothing in the syllogism that goes to prove that donuts caused weight gain.  You also haven't shown that pound cake increases weight (unless the pound cake is the only thing that you ate yesterday).  While "donuts have no impact on weight" is a bad conclusion, now you just avoided the test because the test wasn't with donuts.  You have failed to prove that "donuts are not the only cause of weight gain" because you haven't proven that "donuts cause weight gain"....you are making an assumption of facts not in evidence (which you may absolutely be convinced is true and may in fact be true but you haven't proven). You have set up a test with poundcake when you needed to do it with donuts.
> 
> Here's how it's properly done:
> 
> A1: avoiding donuts helps you lose weight
> E1: I ate a donut and still lost weight.
> Disproven conclusion: Avoiding donuts alone is the only thing that can help you lose weight.
> Bad conclusion: Eating donuts help you lose weight
> Good conclusion: Avoiding donuts is not solely responsible for weight loss.
> 
> Guess you are great at math, bad at logic...did I ever tell you I got a perfect score on the Lsat (it's mostly a logic and reasoning test)   Now your out of your element on my turf.  It's not only bad logic but it's bad science: your evidence has nothing to do with the assertion trying to be proven.


More word spam.  You wouldn't need so many words if you had a strong point and made it succinctly.

In your Japan example, you have two input variables: mask use and variant.  Recently, one of the inputs changed (BA.5) , while the other remained constant (Mask use).

For some reason, you use this to make a claim about the variable which remained *fixed.*

Since when does a change in an output variable prove anything about a fixed input variable?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> More word spam.  You wouldn't need so many words if you had a strong point and made it succinctly.
> 
> In your Japan example, you have two input variables: mask use and variant.  Recently, one of the inputs changed (BA.5) , while the other remained constant (Mask use).
> 
> For some reason, you use this to make a claim about the variable which remained *fixed.*
> 
> Since when does a change in an output variable prove anything about a fixed input variable?


The problem is you assume the masks is the reason Japan had lower deaths vs other locations.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> And just like that LA stands down on it's mask mandate
> 
> "Now his failure is complete"


UCLA is still requiring masks and it sounds like they will be mandatory to stsrt the fall school year.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> More word spam.  You wouldn't need so many words if you had a strong point and made it succinctly.
> 
> In your Japan example, you have two input variables: mask use and variant.  Recently, one of the inputs changed (BA.5) , while the other remained constant (Mask use).
> 
> For some reason, you use this to make a claim about the variable which remained *fixed.*
> 
> Since when does a change in an output variable prove anything about a fixed input variable?


You were the one that laid out your example. I was just pointing out your error in reasoning which is the same as with masks and Japan. You always wave things away when you’ve been show up

same reasonIng flaws. As with the pound cake example, you are assuming as hound point outs that death follows masks instead of some other factor.  The Philippines has a hard mask mandate and had a bad result. So did peru. Norway didn’t and ended up well.

and I’ve just been trying to get you to admit some daylight: that while masks may have been useful in the past pre vaccine now given how contagious it is masks (especially cloth ones) are of less utility.You seem to be going there which makes me happy

“any chance you are for scuba today?”
“yes we are for scuba”
“No way jose”
“Yes way jose…but we are going out with him”
“no problem leuban. As long as you are for scuba I am appy”.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> He's a bad dog.


That sounds sort of sad.  Poor puppy.  Surely it's more rich, complicated, situational.  I know Gary Larson is obviously best suited for this terrain. But seeing as how we've been left to fend for ourselves I'm picturing something along the lines of Mr. Peabody and Sherman, with a lapsed Catholic flair.  

Here, Mr. Peabody,  try this parsimony biscuit treat.  its simple, yet deeply satisfying.  

Sherman, that's just a crumbly little wafer.  We obviously need to have another discussion about the distinction between simple and stingy. Honestly, next thing I know you'll be asking me to drink Kool-Aid from a Dixie cup. 

What do you mean, Mr. Peabody?

Never mind.  Now be a good boy and run along Sherman.  Oh, and if you see Shrodinger's cat let me know, won't you?  I've been wanting to chase that elusive feline around the block for some time now.  

Sure, Mr. Peabody.  How will I know when I find her?

Nobody's quite sure Sherman.  It's one of those mystery in a riddle in an enigma things.  Try looking sideways.

If you say so Mr. Peabody.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> The problem is you assume the masks is the reason Japan had lower deaths vs other locations.


You two are the ones who thought Japan made a good poster child for the anti-mask argument.

If you only now realize that Japan doesn't make your case for you, that's your problem.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

espola said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Huanan market was the epicenter of SARS-CoV-2 emergence
> 
> 
> Geographical clustering of the earliest known COVID-19 cases and the proximity of positive environmental samples to live-animal vendors suggest that the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the site of origin of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zenodo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


This, and the companion paper in the same issue, were nice pieces of work.  But, since Occam's razor came up, they are perfect real world examples.  We have our current simplest explanation.  And we have infinite narrative space surrounding alternatives that cannot be falsified. Imagination strips off its clothes and runs naked through the buttercups.


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This, and the companion paper in the same issue, were nice pieces of work.  But, since Occam's razor came up, they are perfect real world examples.  We have our current simplest explanation.  And we have infinite narrative space surrounding alternatives that cannot be falsified. Imagination strips off its clothes and runs naked through the buttercups.


You and I disagree about which way Occam's razor cuts in this case.

Maybe it was a live animal market, but there are a whole lot of live animal markets, and only one virology research center doing gain of function research on bat viruses.

So, maybe the virus was transported 1000 miles in a crate with pangolins, but none of the other live animal markets got a sample.

Or maybe the workers who moved the lab live near a market, and it happens to be that one.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> You and I disagree about which way Occam's razor cuts in this case.
> 
> Maybe it was a live animal market, but there are a whole lot of live animal markets, and only one virology research center doing gain of function research on bat viruses.
> 
> So, maybe the virus was transported 1000 miles in a crate with pangolins, but none of the other live animal markets got a sample.
> 
> Or maybe the workers who moved the lab live near a market, and it happens to be that one.


It's not a which way it cuts thing for me.  That's not it. The thing for me is that Occam's razor, since it came up, is as good as far as it goes, but outside of a strict logical construction, as far as it goes isn't very far.  You invoked two alternatives, but the non-falsifiable narrative space, like I said, is infinite. Restriction enzyme free cloning designed to mimic natural viral recombination junctions around the S RBD, using sub-optimal primers to leave no G/C bias that the hounds will be sniffing for. I'm not making that up. Bring it to the market and dump it on your racoon dog BBQ plate. Why go to all the trouble to release a low IFR virus?  Anything from I don't like Mondays to whatever plot you want to imagine. Doesn't have to be buttercups.  Could be black dahlias. Or a bad case of FDS, gain of function murmurings, and a blotter of bad acid. Its the who killed JFK for our times. Maybe Oliver Stone will make a movie.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> This, and the companion paper in the same issue, were nice pieces of work.  But, since Occam's razor came up, they are perfect real world examples.  We have our current simplest explanation.  And we have infinite narrative space surrounding alternatives that cannot be falsified. Imagination strips off its clothes and runs naked through the buttercups.


Who supplied the data that was used?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You and I disagree about which way Occam's razor cuts in this case.
> 
> Maybe it was a live animal market, but there are a whole lot of live animal markets, and only one virology research center doing gain of function research on bat viruses.
> 
> So, maybe the virus was transported 1000 miles in a crate with pangolins, but none of the other live animal markets got a sample.
> 
> Or maybe the workers who moved the lab live near a market, and it happens to be that one.


Occam's Razor does not like "maybes".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Grace T. said:


> My friend has been working for her particular city for close to 5 years now and was one of the biggest pro mask advocates around early on (to keep kids in school in the fall of 2020) but go on....cling to your religious beliefs....with every word you just prove my ongoing point about you: you believe the establishment experts you agree with are the "experts"....everyone else is a snake oil salesman, regardless of their credentials.


Shocking isn't it?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back.

Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer’s order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and cancelled it.

This is the turning point we’ve been working towards. It effectively stops Newsom from issuing another statewide mandate, eager as he might be to do so. 

It’s reminiscent of when my home school district, Roseville Joint Union, passed a Resolution to ignore Newsom’s school mask mandate. Neighboring districts followed suit and it snowballed from there; humiliated, Newsom was forced to rescind the order.

It’s also similar to our triumph over his student vaccine mandate. After we stopped Senator Pan’s mandate bill, I called for Newsom to rescind his own Executive Order. Hours later, he did just that – a major embarrassment after months of showcasing the “first in the nation” mandate.

Notably, the current resistance is happening in some of the bluest parts of the state. In Long Beach, Democrats outnumber Republicans 144,000 to 44,000.

*Sign up below and I’ll update you on our fight to end all mandates









						LA County cancels mask mandate in face of opposition
					

LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back. Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer's order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and...



					blog.electkevinkiley.com


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It's not a which way it cuts thing for me.  That's not it. The thing for me is that Occam's razor, since it came up, is as good as far as it goes, but outside of a strict logical construction, as far as it goes isn't very far.  You invoked two alternatives, but the non-falsifiable narrative space, like I said, is infinite. Restriction enzyme free cloning designed to mimic natural viral recombination junctions around the S RBD, using sub-optimal primers to leave no G/C bias that the hounds will be sniffing for. I'm not making that up. Bring it to the market and dump it on your racoon dog BBQ plate. Why go to all the trouble to release a low IFR virus?  Anything from I don't like Mondays to whatever plot you want to imagine. Doesn't have to be buttercups.  Could be black dahlias. Or a bad case of FDS, gain of function murmurings, and a blotter of bad acid. Its the who killed JFK for our times. Maybe Oliver Stone will make a movie.


Occam's Razor, at least in the philosophical realm, is sloppy reasoning.  It's easily countered by the possibility postulate (also known as the Laura Flynn Boyle)

Witness: "The dog was happy because it got a treat"
LFB: "But you also walked in at that moment?"
W: "Yes"
LFB: "Is it possible the dog was happy to see you?"
W: "I had just given him his favorite treat.  He hadn't eaten all day."
LFB: "That's not what I'm asking you.  You've lived with him for years...he's your companion and friend.  I'm asking you if he might have been happy to see you when you walked through that door.  Is it possible?"
W: "Yes, it is possible".
LFB: "Thank you, no further questions."


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Occam's Razor, at least in the philosophical realm, is sloppy reasoning.


No, it's not.


----------



## Grace T.

Bruddah IZ said:


> LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back.
> 
> Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer’s order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and cancelled it.
> 
> This is the turning point we’ve been working towards. It effectively stops Newsom from issuing another statewide mandate, eager as he might be to do so.
> 
> It’s reminiscent of when my home school district, Roseville Joint Union, passed a Resolution to ignore Newsom’s school mask mandate. Neighboring districts followed suit and it snowballed from there; humiliated, Newsom was forced to rescind the order.
> 
> It’s also similar to our triumph over his student vaccine mandate. After we stopped Senator Pan’s mandate bill, I called for Newsom to rescind his own Executive Order. Hours later, he did just that – a major embarrassment after months of showcasing the “first in the nation” mandate.
> 
> Notably, the current resistance is happening in some of the bluest parts of the state. In Long Beach, Democrats outnumber Republicans 144,000 to 44,000.
> 
> *Sign up below and I’ll update you on our fight to end all mandates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA County cancels mask mandate in face of opposition
> 
> 
> LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back. Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer's order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and...
> 
> 
> 
> blog.electkevinkiley.com


The next fight is actually whether schools will reopen at all or with heavy testing requirements still in place.

Ferrer was only willing to commit at the meeting that she's "hopeful that schools will open".


----------



## crush




----------



## Lion Eyes

Grace T. said:


> The next fight is actually whether schools will reopen at all or with heavy testing requirements still in place.
> 
> Ferrer was only willing to commit at the meeting that she's "hopeful that schools will open".


*Declining enrollment clobbers California’s schools*
BY DAN WALTERS APRIL 26, 2022

This month, the state Department of Education reported that for the first time in many years, enrollment had dropped below 6 million.

The slow erosion in enrollment that began a half-decade ago stemmed from demographic factors, such as virtually no growth, or even a decline, in the state’s overall population, lower birthrates and an outflow of people, including children, to other states.

In the last two years, school closures due to COVID-19 accelerated enrollment losses but the resumption of in-classroom instruction did not stem the hemorrhage. “Enrollment is down from 6,002,523 in 2020–21 to 5,892,240 in 2021–22, a decrease of more than 110,000 students and 1.8% from the prior year,” the state Department of Education reported. “ This follows a steady decline in public school enrollment statewide since 2014–15.”

The data trends indicate that the state’s schools will continue to see enrollment declines for the foreseeable future and that creates a financial dilemma for local school districts since the state provides most of their money and aid based on attendance.

https://calmatters.org/commentary/2022/04/declining-enrollment-clobbers-californias-schools/


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Bruddah IZ said:


> LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back.
> 
> Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer’s order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and cancelled it.
> 
> This is the turning point we’ve been working towards. It effectively stops Newsom from issuing another statewide mandate, eager as he might be to do so.
> 
> It’s reminiscent of when my home school district, Roseville Joint Union, passed a Resolution to ignore Newsom’s school mask mandate. Neighboring districts followed suit and it snowballed from there; humiliated, Newsom was forced to rescind the order.
> 
> It’s also similar to our triumph over his student vaccine mandate. After we stopped Senator Pan’s mandate bill, I called for Newsom to rescind his own Executive Order. Hours later, he did just that – a major embarrassment after months of showcasing the “first in the nation” mandate.
> 
> Notably, the current resistance is happening in some of the bluest parts of the state. In Long Beach, Democrats outnumber Republicans 144,000 to 44,000.
> 
> *Sign up below and I’ll update you on our fight to end all mandates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA County cancels mask mandate in face of opposition
> 
> 
> LA County is cancelling its absurd new mask mandate. Thank you to all who fought back. Earlier this week the cities of Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Long Beach, El Segundo, and Manhattan Beach announced they would refuse to enforce Barbara Ferrer's order. And just moments ago, Ferrer backtracked and...
> 
> 
> 
> blog.electkevinkiley.com


Anyone else wondering why Newsom has not giving up his emergency powers yet? He may still have some tricks up his sleeve.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The next fight is actually whether schools will reopen at all or with heavy testing requirements still in place.
> 
> Ferrer was only willing to commit at the meeting that she's "hopeful that schools will open".


I would be amazed if schools anywhere in CA closed this fall.  It would be political suicide.

Any "open schools" announcement requires help from CTA, so they can't commit to it without a union rep in support.  But that's different from saying the board is actually thinking of cancelling the first day of school.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Occam's Razor, at least in the philosophical realm, is sloppy reasoning.  It's easily countered by the possibility postulate (also known as the Laura Flynn Boyle)
> 
> Witness: "The dog was happy because it got a treat"
> LFB: "But you also walked in at that moment?"
> W: "Yes"
> LFB: "Is it possible the dog was happy to see you?"
> W: "I had just given him his favorite treat.  He hadn't eaten all day."
> LFB: "That's not what I'm asking you.  You've lived with him for years...he's your companion and friend.  I'm asking you if he might have been happy to see you when you walked through that door.  Is it possible?"
> W: "Yes, it is possible".
> LFB: "Thank you, no further questions."


What is this "philosophical realm"?  Anyway, the whole Occam Razor thing seems to me to be of limited utility.  Even narrowly applied, the cynic in me says its a great way to kill a strawman.  Remember, you brought it up.  The parsimony biscuit can only lead to puppy acting out and exhibiting poor behaviors.  IMO, Pavlov would have been the better way to go.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> Who supplied the data that was used?


For the first paper, which is the least useful one, but has drawn the most media attention, I'm guessing if you put "who" in all caps like Crush that might be close for at least some of it.  If you're more serious, the most relevant parts with respect to what you are asking for will be in supplementary files. For the first paper that is here.





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




Underlying methodology for the second paper is here.





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




My point in bringing up these works earlier in the context of Occam's razor (my God, the places we go) is precisely that as origin stories they are non-definitive.  No smooth shaves. Switching the metaphor, short of a smoking gun-a term that itself came from the JFK investigation if I have it right-that is how it will always be.  But I thought I'd dig the links up for you anyway because it might be a worthwhile excercise to go "my ifs, ands, and buts are such and such".  It would be easy to do.  These papers could easily be "shot them" down on provenance, limitations of approach, on the merits, etc.  And then go, OK, how would I address/prove/or falsify this.  Or you could save yourself most of the trouble and read the blurb article from Nature back when the papers were still preprints.  Have fun with it.









						Wuhan market was epicentre of pandemic’s start, studies suggest
					

Report authors say that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 jumped to people from animals sold at the market on two occasions in late 2019 — but some scientists want more definitive evidence.




					www.nature.com


----------



## crush

Well Evil, your boy Biden just test positive for the Rona again.  Nancy is in Tawaiin and all military is on high alert. Check out their SM accounts. It's game on!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the first paper, which is the least useful one, but has drawn the most media attention, I'm guessing if you put "who" in all caps like Crush that might be close for at least some of it.  If you're more serious, the most relevant parts with respect to what you are asking for will be in supplementary files. For the first paper that is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underlying methodology for the second paper is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point in bringing up these works earlier in the context of Occam's razor (my God, the places we go) is precisely that as origin stories they are non-definitive.  No smooth shaves. Switching the metaphor, short of a smoking gun-a term that itself came from the JFK investigation if I have it right-that is how it will always be.  But I thought I'd dig the links up for you anyway because it might be a worthwhile excercise to go "my ifs, ands, and buts are such and such".  It would be easy to do.  These papers could easily be "shot them" down on provenance, limitations of approach, on the merits, etc.  And then go, OK, how would I address/prove/or falsify this.  Or you could save yourself most of the trouble and read the blurb article from Nature back when the papers were still preprints.  Have fun with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan market was epicentre of pandemic’s start, studies suggest
> 
> 
> Report authors say that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 jumped to people from animals sold at the market on two occasions in late 2019 — but some scientists want more definitive evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


I'm curious how the data was obtained. Nothing else matters if the data isn't legitimate. In general, the Chinese government was not willing to allow independent investigations. So, who provided the data? It seems like a simple question. The answer - to steal an @dad4 phrase - appears to be word salad.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm curious how the data was obtained. Nothing else matters if the data isn't legitimate. In general, the Chinese government was not willing to allow independent investigations. So, who provided the data? It seems like a simple question. The answer - to steal an @dad4 phrase - appears to be word salad.


Here is more word salad. Lie lie lie and spin and then lie.


----------



## crush

Gen. Flynn***
"Now that Biden has COVID again & knows he is contagious even after 4 shots, he has absolutely* zero moral authority* to force a needle into anyone serving in our military, any & all federal employees, absolutely every single medical worker nationwide, & all foreign visitors. It is an outrage that this vax lie continues. *Our nation’s security is at the highest risk levels *we’ve been at in decades due to the sheer abuse by this WH & THE WEF elites. “We won’t be fooled again


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm curious how the data was obtained. Nothing else matters if the data isn't legitimate. In general, the Chinese government was not willing to allow independent investigations. So, who provided the data? It seems like a simple question. The answer - to steal an @dad4 phrase - appears to be word salad.


The links will tell you where the data came from. But it sounds like you've already answered your own question.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> Well Evil, your boy Biden just test positive for the Rona again.  Nancy is in Tawaiin and all military is on high alert. Check out their SM accounts. It's game on!!!
> 
> View attachment 14439


Sounds like capture the flag.  Always liked that back in the summer camp days.  Bit of a William Golding vibe but no harm done.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> But it sounds like you've already answered your own question.


No, I haven't, but someone posted elsewhere, "Chinese CDC". Is that correct?


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> Well Evil, your boy Biden just test positive for the Rona again.  Nancy is in Tawaiin and all military is on high alert. Check out their SM accounts. It's game on!!!
> 
> View attachment 14439


Anecdotally including Biden I’m aware of no less than 10 bounce back cases on paxlovid. It seems to be quite common. Except for high risk cases (like Biden) they really need to pause it until they can do proper studies on either extending or upping the dose. If you are young and healthy there is zero reason to be on paxlovid and it’s possible we are just encouraging resistance. But they won’t do it because of $$$.


----------



## Happened again

Grace T. said:


> Anecdotally including Biden I’m aware of no less than 10 bounce back cases on paxlovid. It seems to be quite common. Except for high risk cases (like Biden) they really need to pause it until they can do proper studies on either extending or upping the dose. If you are young and healthy there is zero reason to be on paxlovid and it’s possible we are just encouraging resistance. But they won’t do it because of $$$.


It's tricky to prescribe.  I suspect many prescribers are cheating a bit, upping dosage ( don't ask, don't tell).  We will see if it ever emerges from EUA status - the interaction with so many common drugs is sketchy.  The culprit is ritonavir  - anytime you you mess with liver enzymes, you mess with a boatload of commonly taken drugs ranging from hormone contraceptives to serious stuff like  cholesterol meds, antiarrhythmic medications, etc.  Stuff that a guy like Biden may be taking (wink wink).   You could weakly argue that  vitamins and other supplements mess with liver enzymes as well. 

No way anyone does additional studies to determine  whether upping the dosage gets rid of the rebound.  I love how every headline about biden's rebound makes it seem rebouding is soooo  uncommon.  It's not, plenty of rebouding going around.  Most people just stick out the rebound, wait another 5 days or so, test again then move on with life. 

By prescribing paxlovid, it shows how worried they were.  It likley did it's job of reducing replication.  They could have gone with  Merck’s oral antiviral molnupiravir, no known other med interaction but likely decided the effectiveness of Pax (88%) was better than the merck product (30%).  Go care team!!


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> For the first paper, which is the least useful one, but has drawn the most media attention, I'm guessing if you put "who" in all caps like Crush that might be close for at least some of it.  If you're more serious, the most relevant parts with respect to what you are asking for will be in supplementary files. For the first paper that is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underlying methodology for the second paper is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point in bringing up these works earlier in the context of Occam's razor (my God, the places we go) is precisely that as origin stories they are non-definitive.  No smooth shaves. Switching the metaphor, short of a smoking gun-a term that itself came from the JFK investigation if I have it right-that is how it will always be.  But I thought I'd dig the links up for you anyway because it might be a worthwhile excercise to go "my ifs, ands, and buts are such and such".  It would be easy to do.  These papers could easily be "shot them" down on provenance, limitations of approach, on the merits, etc.  And then go, OK, how would I address/prove/or falsify this.  Or you could save yourself most of the trouble and read the blurb article from Nature back when the papers were still preprints.  Have fun with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan market was epicentre of pandemic’s start, studies suggest
> 
> 
> Report authors say that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 jumped to people from animals sold at the market on two occasions in late 2019 — but some scientists want more definitive evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


I read the Nature article and haven't read the studies, but based on all the caveats and qualifiers in the article it sounds like these studies are at best educated guesses.  Particularly when they can't trace it to a species let alone a specific infected animal.  A bigger knock may be the fact that 2 of the studies came from Scripps which doesnt have any Covid credibility after one of its experts claimed that water activities were dangerous because the virus would be carried by sea air.  This falsehood led to policies that closed beaches and ocean activities. Scripps needs to stick with oceanography and avoid virology.

The good news is the pangolin seems to be off the hook.  I had predicted it was just scapegoated because it was so ugly.  The racoon dog is pretty cute.

At this point we have very little evidence to prove either a lab leak or the wet market source.  Personally I doubt that we will ever know definitively since China blocked any timely and open investgation.

One thing Covid has exposed is the low bar that has been set for the definition of science.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I read the Nature article and haven't read the studies, but based on all the caveats and qualifiers in the article it sounds like these studies are at best educated guesses.  Particularly when they can't trace it to a species let alone a specific infected animal.  A bigger knock may be the fact that 2 of the studies came from Scripps which doesnt have any Covid credibility after one of its experts claimed that water activities were dangerous because the virus would be carried by sea air.  This falsehood led to policies that closed beaches and ocean activities. Scripps needs to stick with oceanography and avoid virology.
> 
> The good news is the pangolin seems to be off the hook.  I had predicted it was just scapegoated because it was so ugly.  The racoon dog is pretty cute.
> 
> At this point we have very little evidence to prove either a lab leak or the wet market source.  Personally I doubt that we will ever know definitively since China blocked any timely and open investgation.
> 
> One thing Covid has exposed is the low bar that has been set for the definition of science.


Nonsense in service of an agenda.


----------



## crush

Take this tip to the bank!


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Nonsense in service of an agenda.


you sound like a paid advertisment for the chinese government.  they (and those under their thumb/wallet) have danced around this issue since the beginning.  Maybe this, maybe that, could  be this, could be that, sounds like this, smells like that.  Pretty soon the world will stop even thinking about trying to figure out the genesis - at this point it doesn't even matter...what it was then isn't what it is today.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> you sound like a paid advertisment for the chinese government.  they (and those under their thumb/wallet) have danced around this issue since the beginning.  Maybe this, maybe that, could  be this, could be that, sounds like this, smells like that.  Pretty soon the world will stop even thinking about trying to figure out the genesis - at this point it doesn't even matter...what it was then isn't what it is today.


More nonsense.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> More nonsense.


Something in which you are definitely and expert!


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Something in which you are definitely and expert!


Your bias is showing.

Have you nothing to say about the articles published in Science?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Your bias is showing.
> 
> Have you nothing to say about the articles published in Science?


Yeah, who supplied the data?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, who supplied the data?


Like when China reported they only had 85,000 cases for the first year or so.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Like when China reported they only had 85,000 cases for the first year or so.


How intellectually disabled does a person have to be to give any credence to a COVID report based on Chinese government data? Doing so indicates you should donate your brain to science ... immediately. You aren't using it.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

kickingandscreaming said:


> No, I haven't, but someone posted elsewhere, "Chinese CDC". Is that correct?


To finish this from my end.  You asked the provenance of the data.  I suspect a lot of it will be from what the World Health Organization was able to obtain early on. But I don't know. If you want to know, the links to the supplementary information will tell you. For a short format journal like Science that is where most of that detailed information will be found.  So I looked up the links to the supplements.  For you, in case you wanted to find out for yourself.

But China.  Yes, everybody knows. Any data that is available from the earliest events in the pandemic would necessarily come from China. The Chinese government could well have culpability or they may not want to be embarrassed. If they are culpable, they would have both motive and opportunity to cover stuff up, provide an incomplete picture, limit access etc. And obviously they have not been forthcoming. So, a question to ask yourself might be whether any on site data could be considered legitimate. And if not, than nothing will pass the sniff test and your work is done.  

Formalism in the origin story and what is provable.  This was my interest and so you don't need to read on if you don't care.  Whatever the source of the virus, the second of the two Science papers does help show that the phylogeny of the virus can be backtracked to early genomes that were collected in the Wuhan market.  The phylogeny can be rooted there.  That was the point of that work, not to let China off the hook or prove natural origin. It helps limits the narrative space in ways that help refine this or that scenarios.  One way or another the origins of the pandemic required human agency.  Natural precursors to lineages A and B could have been transported to the market by wildlife traffickers.  Alternatively, the virus could have been the product of a deliberate or accidental release from a lab source/stock, with the Wuhan Institute being the most likely suspect. Is either alternative formally provable?  IMO, it will never be possible to prove that it was a spillover.  Somebody could ultimately show "here is the cave with a viral population that aligns with A and here, 10 km away, is the cave with a viral population aligning with lineage B".  But so what.  The Wuhan Institute goes out and collects viral stocks.  So maybe they had them to begin with and then covered it up.  No way to disprove that, etc. With the correct smoking gun, intelligence product, whatever, it could be possible to prove a lab leak/release beyond what might constitute reasonable doubt. Short of that, for an origin story the simplest explanation will never be a satisfactory one. That was my point.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I read the Nature article and haven't read the studies, but based on all the caveats and qualifiers in the article it sounds like these studies are at best educated guesses.  Particularly when they can't trace it to a species let alone a specific infected animal.  A bigger knock may be the fact that 2 of the studies came from Scripps which doesnt have any Covid credibility after one of its experts claimed that water activities were dangerous because the virus would be carried by sea air.  This falsehood led to policies that closed beaches and ocean activities. Scripps needs to stick with oceanography and avoid virology.
> 
> The good news is the pangolin seems to be off the hook.  I had predicted it was just scapegoated because it was so ugly.  The racoon dog is pretty cute.
> 
> At this point we have very little evidence to prove either a lab leak or the wet market source.  Personally I doubt that we will ever know definitively since China blocked any timely and open investgation.
> 
> One thing Covid has exposed is the low bar that has been set for the definition of science.


The papers getting tossed about come, in part, from the Scripps Research Institute, not Scripps Institute of Oceanography. I appreciate that is likely a distinction without a difference for you but they are administratively distinct. I don't know what beach thing you are talking about, but if you're sure it came from Scripps Oceanography and you want to provide your guidance beyond harrumphing I was recently looking at their organizational structure since my kid was considering UCSD.  That structure can be found here.



			https://scripps.ucsd.edu/system/files/2022-06/Copy%20of%20VCMS%20Leadership%20Chart%20-%20Page%201.pdf
		


I suspect if you wrote to the Associate Dean of Marine Sciences and Cced the Director/Dean you would get some response. Since they would both be seeing it they would have to deal with it in some kind of way I suspect.  Even if they just redirected to their outreach person. You might get some free swag.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> More nonsense.


nope, just your basic lack of understanding - lemmings tend to follow.


----------



## Happened again

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> But China.  Yes, everybody knows. Any data that is available from the earliest events in the pandemic would necessarily come from China. The Chinese government could well have culpability or they may not want to be embarrassed. If they are culpable, they would have both motive and opportunity to cover stuff up, provide an incomplete picture, limit access etc. *And obviously they have not been forthcoming.* So, a question to ask yourself might be whether any on site data could be considered legitimate. And if not, than nothing will pass the sniff test and your work is done.


The chinese government has moved on, they have bigger fish to fry, things to get after.  They are happy to leave behind bits and pieces of disjointed information.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> The chinese government has moved on, they have bigger fish to fry, things to get after.  They are happy to leave behind bits and pieces of disjointed information.


Point being? The toothpaste is on the counter and well dried up by now.


----------



## Lion Eyes

"Point being? The toothpaste is on the counter and well dried up by now." _Quote from a nitwit _



The administration continues to prostrate itself when it comes to China, be it Wuhan & Covid 19, Taiwan, giving it our petroleum reserves, or Hunter...


----------



## espola

Lion Eyes said:


> "Point being? The toothpaste is on the counter and well dried up by now." _Quote from a nitwit _
> 
> 
> 
> The administration continues to prostrate itself when it comes to China, be it Wuhan & Covid 19, Taiwan, giving it our petroleum reserves, or Hunter...


Is that what's on the laptop?  You never answered that question.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Point being? The toothpaste is on the counter and well dried up by now.


don't be silly, not dried up, put away in the junk drawer where it's hard to find.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Is that what's on the laptop?  You never answered that question.


The laptop is simply a blank slate any nutter can use to project upon. Kinda like their lord and savior the Don the con. Whatever they want to be true.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> don't be silly, not dried up, put away in the junk drawer where it's hard to find.


And if you were told what you want to hear?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> The laptop is simply a blank slate any nutter can use to project upon. Kinda like their lord and savior the Don the con. Whatever they want to be true.


Well, if the laptop data says vaccines were less than stellar then maybe hunter is kinda smart after all.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> And if you were told what you want to hear?


ahhh, i get it...you are good with the chinese controlling the narrative?  is that it? makes plenty of sense.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> ahhh, i get it...you are good with the chinese controlling the narrative?  is that it? makes plenty of sense.


What is your end game?


----------



## crush

Prayers up to those in New York City and San Fran. Monkey pox is spreading fast. LA next? This was how the Rona was rolled on all of us, SF, LA, NYC and as the World turns, so does my brain. 









						NYC declares Monkeypox a public health emergency
					

New York City, the epicenter of the Monkeypox outbreak, has declared a public health emergency. On Saturday, the New York City Health Department made the Big Apple the second major city to declare a pubic health emergency following San Francisco last week.




					www.oann.com


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> What is your end game?


end game?  no end game silly goose.  just aware of the narrative that is being spewed  forth from the "science" community...follow the $$$.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> end game?  no end game silly goose.  just aware of the narrative that is being spewed  forth from the "science" community...follow the $$$.


And?


----------



## crush

Good morning Frens & Psychos, the HEAT is on. We have ALL been lied to.


----------



## crush

Truth speak. Thank you for being honest.









						HINDSIGHT IS 20/20  INJURED WOMAN SPEAKS
					

“They were the smart ones.” Source: Info that matters. I agree with this uploader’s comment: “Hopefully the vaxxed will help start a political movement to join humanity against the global dictatorship.” https://www.bitchute.com/channel/ggt/




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> end game?  no end game silly goose.  just aware of the narrative that is being spewed  forth from the "science" community...follow the $$$.


Like with the Hunter laptop, what is it you hope to/think you’ll/want to find?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Like with the Hunter laptop, what is it you hope to/think you’ll/want to find?


why do you assume I want to find anything out?  your obsession with the laptop, trumpy boy, and your quest to bend other's views are weird. 

I don't hope to "find" anything.  My view/opinion is that China has been less than honest about sars-cov2, a bit nefarious to say the least, in all aspects.  Your view is that talking bobble heads in government and on tv should be 100% believed.  Drive on, it's your right to have an opinion.  The lens with which you and I view the world are completely different.  And spare me with the trumpy stuff.....makes you sound like a crazy person.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> And?


whoooosh...that's the sound heard after you typed those words...


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> why do you assume I want to find anything out?  your obsession with the laptop, trumpy boy, and your quest to bend other's views are weird.
> 
> I don't hope to "find" anything.  My view/opinion is that China has been less than honest about sars-cov2, a bit nefarious to say the least, in all aspects.  Your view is that talking bobble heads in government and on tv should be 100% believed.  Drive on, it's your right to have an opinion.  The lens with which you and I view the world are completely different.  And spare me with the trumpy stuff.....makes you sound like a crazy person.


That’s a load there of made up bs and presumptions. No one should believe China’s narrative no matter what the subject.
Again, I am just wondering what’s your point concern the origin of the virus, does that really matter? Is there a point you are trying to make or are you just questioning as a continuation of another agenda? Or another’s agenda that you latched onto, aka do you even know what you are after?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s a load there of made up bs and presumptions. No one should believe China’s narrative no matter what the subject.
> Again, I am just wondering what’s your point concern the origin of the virus, does that really matter? Is there a point you are trying to make or are you just questioning as a continuation of another agenda? Or another’s agenda that you latched onto, aka do you even know what you are after?


wut?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> wut?


Sorry, seems I’m having trouble get my point across.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry, seems I’m having trouble get my point across.


Rambling is quite difficult to decider…..


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> The papers getting tossed about come, in part, from the Scripps Research Institute, not Scripps Institute of Oceanography. I appreciate that is likely a distinction without a difference for you but they are administratively distinct. I don't know what beach thing you are talking about, but if you're sure it came from Scripps Oceanography and you want to provide your guidance beyond harrumphing I was recently looking at their organizational structure since my kid was considering UCSD.  That structure can be found here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://scripps.ucsd.edu/system/files/2022-06/Copy%20of%20VCMS%20Leadership%20Chart%20-%20Page%201.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect if you wrote to the Associate Dean of Marine Sciences and Cced the Director/Dean you would get some response. Since they would both be seeing it they would have to deal with it in some kind of way I suspect.  Even if they just redirected to their outreach person. You might get some free swag.


I stand corrected on the Scripps Institute of Oceanography vs the Scripps Research Institute.  Apparently I was triggered by the words Scripps Institute.  My bad.

In terms of the "beach thing" I've posted it a number of times and the story was carried nationally by the AP and by many large newspapers.  I will summarize for you.  A highly credentialed research scientist from Scripps Oceanography said the sea air could carry the Covid virus distances.  She also stated the following:
-The beach was the one of most dangerous places to be
-You should skip surfing because the sea air could kill you
-You couldn't pay her $1 million to go to the beach
-The virus could get into the water and winds could spread the virus across the coast

Misguided health policies were made based on these type of expert claims which were patently false.  Not just false, but actually the opposite was true as beaches are one of the safest places.   She, nor Scripps, have ever issued a retraction other than to say that she was taken out of context even though she was quoted verbatim.   Her claims were reckless. (And while the idea of getting swag sound cool, I'm not going to write Scripps.  If I wrote every scientific institution that promoted misinformation I wouldn't have time for a day job).

The lab leak and the animal source of Covid are just theories.  I probably wouldn't bet on either one; however, I would probably give a slight edge to the lab leak theory.  For one the lab leak theory has fewer dots to connect and fewer assumptions required.  China blocking a thorough investigation of the lab adds some credence to this theory.  Also the closest animal virus to Covid comes from bats which clearly the lab was experimenting with.

The biggest hole in the animal origination theory is they have yet to identify a source animal let alone a source species.  Not only have they not identified a source they haven't even identified a subsequent species that has carried Covid.  It's logical that if it came from an animal and is that contagious that we would have since found cases of Covid in species that were common to the wet market.  Where are all those covid positive Raccoon Dogs?

That's one of the problems with the most recent studies is that since some swab samples found Covid in the wet market that they most have come from animals.  Well has far as I know there were also plenty of humans at the wet market as well. 

For both theories the best we have is circumstantial evidence, and at this stage of the game I'm doubtful that we will find a smoking gun.  The evidence has either expired or been destroyed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I stand corrected on the Scripps Institute of Oceanography vs the Scripps Research Institute.  Apparently I was triggered by the words Scripps Institute.  My bad.
> 
> In terms of the "beach thing" I've posted it a number of times and the story was carried nationally by the AP and by many large newspapers.  I will summarize for you.  A highly credentialed research scientist from Scripps Oceanography said the sea air could carry the Covid virus distances.  She also stated the following:
> -The beach was the one of most dangerous places to be
> -You should skip surfing because the sea air could kill you
> -You couldn't pay her $1 million to go to the beach
> -The virus could get into the water and winds could spread the virus across the coast
> 
> Misguided health policies were made based on these type of expert claims which were patently false.  Not just false, but actually the opposite was true as beaches are one of the safest places.   She, nor Scripps, have ever issued a retraction other than to say that she was taken out of context even though she was quoted verbatim.   Her claims were reckless. (And while the idea of getting swag sound cool, I'm not going to write Scripps.  If I wrote every scientific institution that promoted misinformation I wouldn't have time for a day job).
> 
> The lab leak and the animal source of Covid are just theories.  I probably wouldn't bet on either one; however, I would probably give a slight edge to the lab leak theory.  For one the lab leak theory has fewer dots to connect and fewer assumptions required.  China blocking a thorough investigation of the lab adds some credence to this theory.  Also the closest animal virus to Covid comes from bats which clearly the lab was experimenting with.
> 
> The biggest hole in the animal origination theory is they have yet to identify a source animal let alone a source species.  Not only have they not identified a source they haven't even identified a subsequent species that has carried Covid.  It's logical that if it came from an animal and is that contagious that we would have since found cases of Covid in species that were common to the wet market.  Where are all those covid positive Raccoon Dogs?
> 
> That's one of the problems with the most recent studies is that since some swab samples found Covid in the wet market that they most have come from animals.  Well has far as I know there were also plenty of humans at the wet market as well.
> 
> For both theories the best we have is circumstantial evidence, and at this stage of the game I'm doubtful that we will find a smoking gun.  The evidence has either expired or been destroyed.


Ok so you are leaning lab leak. If that turns out to be 100% certain what does that mean to you? What does that prove?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ok so you are leaning lab leak. If that turns out to be 100% certain what does that mean to you? What does that prove?


what are you even saying? what does it mean to you...that's the better question.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Good morning Frens & Psychos, the HEAT is on. We have ALL been lied to.
> 
> View attachment 14448


Consistency like that can only come from an expert politician.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Happened again said:


> makes you sound like a crazy person.


If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck ...


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> what are you even saying? what does it mean to you...that's the better question.


 Is the origin of the virus that important and why? Seems simple enough to me.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is the origin of the virus that important and why? Seems simple enough to me.


This sounds a bit like a Hilary "what difference does it make?".  In terms of the pandemic itself, its relevant (importance in the eye of the beholder) to future possible pandemics of this nature or virus itself.  Its very important, though, as to our relationship with China if it came out of the lab.  Due we pursue damages and/or sanctions against China, do we stop funding of all Chinese research, etc.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> This sounds a bit like a Hilary "what difference does it make?".  In terms of the pandemic itself, its relevant (importance in the eye of the beholder) to future possible pandemics of this nature or virus itself.  Its very important, though, as to our relationship with China if it came out of the lab.  Due we pursue damages and/or sanctions against China, do we stop funding of all Chinese research, etc.


What if they just don’t know for sure?


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Consistency like that can only come from an expert politician.


Yes, they are experts at lying to your freaking face on live TV and then laugh at you in your pain, just like the pyschos on here do. These men are ruthless and have no conscious. Their conscious is seared with a hot Iron. No empathy. No heart, just animals. I dealt with a Doc and a few rich fathers who would lie to me and dd face and then lie to get out of the first lies. More lies after that and then project their BS and power unto my family and start crazy lies about my kid to others in the industry. Real losers!!!  karma will take them out bruh. They think it's actually funny that people are suffering. These monsters will have hell to pay for their lies, cheating and stealing our life the last 3 years.  Trust me K & S.  I'm so sad brother. Seriously, I have over 11 friends I know over the last 12 months that have passed away from one illness to another. Never in my 55 years have I known so many who have died in 1 year. I dedicate this song to my best pal Pierre who was in my wedding. He was diehard Trojan fan. #66 will be missed but never forgotten.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> What if they just don’t know for sure?


Well like I indicated before,  I think that's where we will end up, and I wouldn't recommend being heavy handed with China without some solid evidence.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is the origin of the virus that important and why? Seems simple enough to me.


well,,,simple enough for you makes sense.  Imagine you knew something and hoped to hide it and then it came out.  Aren't you always crying about saving lives? The origin of the virus isn't as important as who knew what and when?  remember those silly words in the not so distant past...who knew what when?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> What if they just don’t know for sure?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Happened again said:


> well,,,simple enough for you makes sense.  Imagine you knew something and hoped to hide it and then it came out.  Aren't you always crying about saving lives? The origin of the virus isn't as important as who knew what and when?  remember those silly words in the not so distant past...who knew what when?


“crying about saving lives”? Is that somehow a bad thing?
Why is the origin so important? It seems maybe you are looking for some kind of validation for someone or need to have something to blame?


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> “crying about saving lives”? Is that somehow a bad thing?
> Why is the origin so important? It seems maybe you are looking for some kind of validation for someone or need to have something to blame?


one wonders why I even type words for you to read. validation? blame? how much do you charge for evals?


----------



## Grace T.

Interesting....makes the case Trump was sandbagged by his failure and the failure of his advisors to read the fine print.  Trump repeatedly said he wasn't issuing a lockdown order but the very small print seems to be phrased like an order (at least one the state CDCs would run with).  Trump was played, was too stupid to realize it, and then what's worse is he doubled down on it (tying Atlas' hands) because he couldn't admit in public (or perhaps even to himself) that he had been played.  Also, if accurate, makes hay of the assertion that Fauci didn't recommend the lockdowns...he most certainly knew what was in the fine print even if he didn't draft it.  









						The Day Anthony Fauci Wrecked American Freedom ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Fauci demonstrated at that press conference special knowledge of fine print that not even the president had seen. He was itching to read it.




					brownstone.org


----------



## crush

California Governor Declares State of Emergency - Breaking911
					

(Office of the Governor of California) SACRAMENTO – As part of the state’s ongoing response to the monkeypox outbreak, Governor Gavin Newsom today declared a State of Emergency to bolster the state’s vaccination efforts. The proclamation supports the work underway by the California Department of...




					breaking911.com
				




“California is working urgently across all levels of government to slow the spread of monkeypox, leveraging our robust testing, contact tracing and community partnerships strengthened during the pandemic to ensure that those most at risk are our focus for vaccines, treatment and outreach,” said Governor Newsom. “We’ll continue to work with the federal government to secure more vaccines, raise awareness about reducing risk, and stand with the LGBTQ community fighting stigmatization.”

Who is going to take the Monkey Jab? Be honest with the group you guys.


----------



## Lion Eyes

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is the origin of the virus that important and why? Seems simple enough to me.


Yes it's important. 
Read up ya wanker...

*The Origin of COVID-19 and Why It Matters*

The COVID-19 pandemic is among the deadliest infectious diseases to have emerged in recent history. As with all past pandemics, the specific mechanism of its emergence in humans remains unknown. Nevertheless, a large body of virologic, epidemiologic, veterinary, and ecologic data establishes that the new virus, SARS-CoV-2, evolved directly or indirectly from a β-coronavirus in the sarbecovirus (SARS-like virus) group that naturally infect bats and pangolins in Asia and Southeast Asia. Scientists have warned for decades that such sarbecoviruses are poised to emerge again and again, identified risk factors, and argued for enhanced pandemic prevention and control efforts. Unfortunately, few such preventive actions were taken resulting in the latest coronavirus emergence detected in late 2019 which quickly spread pandemically. The risk of similar coronavirus outbreaks in the future remains high.* In addition to controlling the COVID-19 pandemic, we must undertake vigorous scientific, public health, and societal actions, including significantly increased funding for basic and applied research addressing disease emergence, to prevent this tragic history from repeating itself.*

In 2007, scientists studying coronaviruses warned: “The presence of a large reservoir of SARS-CoV–like viruses in horseshoe bats… is a time bomb. The possibility of the re-emergence of SARS and other novel viruses… should not be ignored.”1

Few paid attention following the disappearance of SARS after the initial outbreak in 2002. Now, 18 years later, COVID-19 has emerged as the deadliest respiratory disease pandemic since 1918, when the “Spanish” influenza pandemic killed an estimated 50 million people.2 We need to understand what happened so that we can prevent it from happening again, and be better prepared to contain similar pandemics at their outsets.

The agent of COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2, was named after the genetically related SARS-CoV (more recently distinguished by some as SARS-CoV-1), which caused a deadly near-pandemic in 2002–2003.3 Before 2019, neither SARS-CoV-2 nor its genetic sequences had ever been identified in viruses of humans or animals.

Even so, scientific research conducted over the last two decades provides clues about how and why the COVID-19 pandemic appeared. We must understand these critically important scientific findings, described in the following text, so that we can better address significant existential risks we will continue to face for the foreseeable future.

Viruses are compact nucleic acid packages of either DNA or (in the case of coronaviruses) RNA associated with proteins, and in some cases with lipids. Viruses are not living organisms and can only reproduce inside living cells susceptible to viral entry and with the capacity to replicate viral nucleic acids and translate nucleic acid signals into amino acids to build viral proteins. Viruses are therefore nonliving self-contained genetic programs capable of redirecting a cell’s machinery to produce more of themselves.

It follows that when a virus enters a human cell for the first time, it has very recently been transmitted from cells of some other host, that is, from another animal or, for example, an insect vector. Emergence of a pathogen between a vertebrate or an insect has been referred to as host-switching, sometimes described as a spillover event. Most of the human viral and nonviral infectious diseases that have existed for centuries—measles, influenza, cholera, smallpox (eradicated in 1980), falciparum malaria,4 dengue, HIV, and many others—originated by animal-to-human host-switching.5 The complex genetic events that underlie host-switching differ greatly from pathogen to pathogen, but general mechanisms have been recognized for many.6–9

Host-switching determinants prominently include social, environmental, and biological factors providing the opportunity for host–species interaction; shared host cell receptors; genetic distance between transmitting and receiving hosts; and characteristics and complexity of the viral quasi-species or viral swarm. (RNA viruses in particular are not transmitted to multiple cells as identical virions, but as collections of thousands of different genetically related virions. The ever-changing complexity of the viral swarm varies among species, genetically distinct but related individuals of the same species, and in single hosts over time.)

Studying animal viruses that have previously spilled over into humans provides clues about host-switching determinants. A well-understood example is influenza virus emergence into humans and other mammals.2 Human pandemic and seasonal influenza viruses arise from enzootic viruses of wild waterfowl and shore birds. From within this natural reservoir, the 1918 pandemic “founder” virus somehow host-switched into humans. We know this from genetic studies comparing avian viruses, the 1918 virus, and its descendants, which have caused three subsequent pandemics, as well as annual seasonal influenza in each of the 102 years since 1918. Similarly, other avian influenza viruses have host-switched into horses, dogs, pigs, seals, and other vertebrates, with as yet unknown pandemic potential.2,10,11 Although some molecular host-switching events remain unobserved, phylogenetic analyses of influenza viruses allow us to readily characterize evolution and host-switching as it occurs in nature.2

*Until recently, relatively little was known about coronaviruses, and research interest in these common cold viruses was minimal. Eighteen years ago, a previously unknown β-coronavirus named SARS-CoV suddenly emerged. Following its initial appearance in China it spread to 29 other countries, causing a near-pandemic and killing 813 of the 8,809 people with confirmed infection before being controlled by aggressive public health measures. It has not been seen since. In 2012, however, another previously unknown β-coronavirus named Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV), and closely related to SARS-CoV, emerged to cause high case-fatality human infections. Fortunately, this virus does not efficiently transmit between humans, and cases have been largely limited to the Middle East where its intermediary host, the dromedary camel, is present in relatively high numbers. In 2016, yet another novel bat-origin coronavirus, an α-coronavirus, emerged in China to cause a novel epizootic disease in pigs, termed swine acute diarrhea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV). And most recently, at least as early as late November 2019, SARS-CoV-2 was recognized and became the third fatal bat virus–associated human disease emergence and the fourth bat virus–associated mammalian emergence in 18 years. ...

... Understanding how COVID-19 emerged is of great importance. We now know that the viruses causing SARS, MERS, and COVID-19 are all members of enormous groups of bat coronaviruses distributed globally, and that many of these viruses are functionally preadapted to human emergence. This preadaptation can be thought of as “accidental” because it must have occurred in nature in the absence of human infection and does not rule out further human adaptation to enable pandemicity. Molecular mechanisms of preadaptation are not fully known, but are undoubtedly related to functional similarities between ACE2 receptors on the cells of numerous mammals (bats, humans, minks, cats, and other domestic and wild animals).33,34 *

entire article:








						The Origin of COVID-19 and Why It Matters
					

The COVID-19 pandemic is among the deadliest infectious diseases to have emerged in recent history. As with all past pandemics, the specific mechanism of its emergence in humans remains unknown. Nevertheless, a large body of virologic, epidemiologic, ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Interesting....makes the case Trump was sandbagged by his failure and the failure of his advisors to read the fine print.  Trump repeatedly said he wasn't issuing a lockdown order but the very small print seems to be phrased like an order (at least one the state CDCs would run with).  Trump was played, was too stupid to realize it, and then what's worse is he doubled down on it (tying Atlas' hands) because he couldn't admit in public (or perhaps even to himself) that he had been played.  Also, if accurate, makes hay of the assertion that Fauci didn't recommend the lockdowns...he most certainly knew what was in the fine print even if he didn't draft it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Day Anthony Fauci Wrecked American Freedom ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> Fauci demonstrated at that press conference special knowledge of fine print that not even the president had seen. He was itching to read it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


"The mission of the Brownstone Institute – which is, in many ways, the spiritual child of the Great Barrington Declaration  "









						About Brownstone Institute ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Brownstone Institute celebrates freedom as the path to progress, trustworthy public health, a vibrant culture, and economic prosperity




					brownstone.org


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> "The mission of the Brownstone Institute – which is, in many ways, the spiritual child of the Great Barrington Declaration  "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Brownstone Institute ⋆ Brownstone Institute
> 
> 
> Brownstone Institute celebrates freedom as the path to progress, trustworthy public health, a vibrant culture, and economic prosperity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brownstone.org


I would think you of all people would appreciate the significance of this. In recent weeks as Biden’s numbers have fallen to record lows and some polls show trump leading in a head to head contest the idea that trump might be the inevitable r nominee has been circulating. Particularly since the anti trump wings looks not just to be de santis but a few others including pence which will divided the anti trump vote.  The fact that the antilockdowners are circling around the idea that trump blew Covid represents a significant new weakness emerging (which I think you would appreciate).  It’s a weakness which some anti lockdowners are beginning to suggest is disqualifying (yeah yeah yeah I know you think Jan 6 is disqualifying but fly out country disagrees…this is the first chink in the armor and whether it is enough ^\_(;?)_/^).  One thing ultimately leading to trumps rise was the notion that the establishment rs weren’t brawlers and let the left get away with stuff, particularly after Romney and smears like the binders of women or the dog thing. If trump can be painted as not being able to take on the deep state (and someone like desantis did) it maybe just maybe enough fingers crossed if we all get lucky.

ps remember the early days when you said Biden was doing such a bang up job and he was popular….good times good times


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I would think you of all people would appreciate the significance of this. In recent weeks as Biden’s numbers have fallen to record lows and some polls show trump leading in a head to head contest the idea that trump might be the inevitable r nominee has been circulating. Particularly since the anti trump wings looks not just to be de santis but a few others including pence which will divided the anti trump vote.  The fact that the antilockdowners are circling around the idea that trump blew Covid represents a significant new weakness emerging (which I think you would appreciate).  It’s a weakness which some anti lockdowners are beginning to suggest is disqualifying (yeah yeah yeah I know you think Jan 6 is disqualifying but fly out country disagrees…this is the first chink in the armor and whether it is enough ^\_(;?)_/^).  One thing ultimately leading to trumps rise was the notion that the establishment rs weren’t brawlers and let the left get away with stuff, particularly after Romney and smears like the binders of women or the dog thing. If trump can be painted as not being able to take on the deep state (and someone like desantis did) it maybe just maybe enough fingers crossed if we all get lucky.
> 
> ps remember the early days when you said Biden was doing such a bang up job and he was popular….good times good times


That's mostly just the expected non-responsive babble.

The only good thing I got from Biden was that he got rid of t.  "...the early days when you said Biden was doing a bang-up job..." exists only in your imagination.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> That's mostly just the expected non-responsive babble.
> 
> The only good thing I got from Biden was that he got rid of t.  "...the early days when you said Biden was doing a bang-up job..." exist only in your imagination.


Still trolling I see even when we are on the same side. It’s always trolling above all else with you ain’t it?

ps if joe has even lost you well then whooosh!


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Still trolling I see even when we are on the same side. It’s always trolling above all else with you ain’t it?
> 
> ps if joe has even lost you well then whooosh!


You seem to have a unique definition of "trolling".


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> You seem to have a unique definition of "trolling".


Looking in the mirror reveals too much.


----------



## crush

New York, California and Illinois


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> Looking in the mirror reveals too much.


The weakest but far most amusing trolling play (which I personally adore) is when the trolls (whether right or left) try to gaslight you by claiming they aren’t trolls. Like it’s not their entire reason for being here, the act behind their characters and what drives them psychologically. The only thing that surpasses it is when one troll joins another to say “what troll?  Nothing to see here but us puppies. Oh you meant you troll.”  It’s my ab fav and always brings a smile to my face.


----------



## Grace T.

Lion Eyes said:


> Yes it's important.
> Read up ya wanker...
> 
> *The Origin of COVID-19 and Why It Matters*
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic is among the deadliest infectious diseases to have emerged in recent history. As with all past pandemics, the specific mechanism of its emergence in humans remains unknown. Nevertheless, a large body of virologic, epidemiologic, veterinary, and ecologic data establishes that the new virus, SARS-CoV-2, evolved directly or indirectly from a β-coronavirus in the sarbecovirus (SARS-like virus) group that naturally infect bats and pangolins in Asia and Southeast Asia. Scientists have warned for decades that such sarbecoviruses are poised to emerge again and again, identified risk factors, and argued for enhanced pandemic prevention and control efforts. Unfortunately, few such preventive actions were taken resulting in the latest coronavirus emergence detected in late 2019 which quickly spread pandemically. The risk of similar coronavirus outbreaks in the future remains high.* In addition to controlling the COVID-19 pandemic, we must undertake vigorous scientific, public health, and societal actions, including significantly increased funding for basic and applied research addressing disease emergence, to prevent this tragic history from repeating itself.*
> 
> In 2007, scientists studying coronaviruses warned: “The presence of a large reservoir of SARS-CoV–like viruses in horseshoe bats… is a time bomb. The possibility of the re-emergence of SARS and other novel viruses… should not be ignored.”1
> 
> Few paid attention following the disappearance of SARS after the initial outbreak in 2002. Now, 18 years later, COVID-19 has emerged as the deadliest respiratory disease pandemic since 1918, when the “Spanish” influenza pandemic killed an estimated 50 million people.2 We need to understand what happened so that we can prevent it from happening again, and be better prepared to contain similar pandemics at their outsets.
> 
> The agent of COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2, was named after the genetically related SARS-CoV (more recently distinguished by some as SARS-CoV-1), which caused a deadly near-pandemic in 2002–2003.3 Before 2019, neither SARS-CoV-2 nor its genetic sequences had ever been identified in viruses of humans or animals.
> 
> Even so, scientific research conducted over the last two decades provides clues about how and why the COVID-19 pandemic appeared. We must understand these critically important scientific findings, described in the following text, so that we can better address significant existential risks we will continue to face for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Viruses are compact nucleic acid packages of either DNA or (in the case of coronaviruses) RNA associated with proteins, and in some cases with lipids. Viruses are not living organisms and can only reproduce inside living cells susceptible to viral entry and with the capacity to replicate viral nucleic acids and translate nucleic acid signals into amino acids to build viral proteins. Viruses are therefore nonliving self-contained genetic programs capable of redirecting a cell’s machinery to produce more of themselves.
> 
> It follows that when a virus enters a human cell for the first time, it has very recently been transmitted from cells of some other host, that is, from another animal or, for example, an insect vector. Emergence of a pathogen between a vertebrate or an insect has been referred to as host-switching, sometimes described as a spillover event. Most of the human viral and nonviral infectious diseases that have existed for centuries—measles, influenza, cholera, smallpox (eradicated in 1980), falciparum malaria,4 dengue, HIV, and many others—originated by animal-to-human host-switching.5 The complex genetic events that underlie host-switching differ greatly from pathogen to pathogen, but general mechanisms have been recognized for many.6–9
> 
> Host-switching determinants prominently include social, environmental, and biological factors providing the opportunity for host–species interaction; shared host cell receptors; genetic distance between transmitting and receiving hosts; and characteristics and complexity of the viral quasi-species or viral swarm. (RNA viruses in particular are not transmitted to multiple cells as identical virions, but as collections of thousands of different genetically related virions. The ever-changing complexity of the viral swarm varies among species, genetically distinct but related individuals of the same species, and in single hosts over time.)
> 
> Studying animal viruses that have previously spilled over into humans provides clues about host-switching determinants. A well-understood example is influenza virus emergence into humans and other mammals.2 Human pandemic and seasonal influenza viruses arise from enzootic viruses of wild waterfowl and shore birds. From within this natural reservoir, the 1918 pandemic “founder” virus somehow host-switched into humans. We know this from genetic studies comparing avian viruses, the 1918 virus, and its descendants, which have caused three subsequent pandemics, as well as annual seasonal influenza in each of the 102 years since 1918. Similarly, other avian influenza viruses have host-switched into horses, dogs, pigs, seals, and other vertebrates, with as yet unknown pandemic potential.2,10,11 Although some molecular host-switching events remain unobserved, phylogenetic analyses of influenza viruses allow us to readily characterize evolution and host-switching as it occurs in nature.2
> 
> *Until recently, relatively little was known about coronaviruses, and research interest in these common cold viruses was minimal. Eighteen years ago, a previously unknown β-coronavirus named SARS-CoV suddenly emerged. Following its initial appearance in China it spread to 29 other countries, causing a near-pandemic and killing 813 of the 8,809 people with confirmed infection before being controlled by aggressive public health measures. It has not been seen since. In 2012, however, another previously unknown β-coronavirus named Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV), and closely related to SARS-CoV, emerged to cause high case-fatality human infections. Fortunately, this virus does not efficiently transmit between humans, and cases have been largely limited to the Middle East where its intermediary host, the dromedary camel, is present in relatively high numbers. In 2016, yet another novel bat-origin coronavirus, an α-coronavirus, emerged in China to cause a novel epizootic disease in pigs, termed swine acute diarrhea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV). And most recently, at least as early as late November 2019, SARS-CoV-2 was recognized and became the third fatal bat virus–associated human disease emergence and the fourth bat virus–associated mammalian emergence in 18 years. ...
> 
> ... Understanding how COVID-19 emerged is of great importance. We now know that the viruses causing SARS, MERS, and COVID-19 are all members of enormous groups of bat coronaviruses distributed globally, and that many of these viruses are functionally preadapted to human emergence. This preadaptation can be thought of as “accidental” because it must have occurred in nature in the absence of human infection and does not rule out further human adaptation to enable pandemicity. Molecular mechanisms of preadaptation are not fully known, but are undoubtedly related to functional similarities between ACE2 receptors on the cells of numerous mammals (bats, humans, minks, cats, and other domestic and wild animals).33,34 *
> 
> entire article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Origin of COVID-19 and Why It Matters
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic is among the deadliest infectious diseases to have emerged in recent history. As with all past pandemics, the specific mechanism of its emergence in humans remains unknown. Nevertheless, a large body of virologic, epidemiologic, ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Either explanation is bad. If it was the wet market we’ve known for years now that it represents a significant vulnerability and it means There should be a concerted effort by public health to shut down the wet markets (which the west has largely abandoned) and force Asia to shift to a supermarket or even butcher shop model of meat distribution. If it was the lab it means rethinking the gain of function research which is dangerous even if didn’t cause the current pandemic and the use and security of lower level labs. But we’ve sort of settled on well China won’t cooperate and we don’t know what happened so we aren’t really justified in doing anything (which is what the Chinese want) where our attitude should be: “fine…we don’t know…fix them both”.  You would think after all the death, economic cost, learning loss and psychological damage it would be the one thing everyone outside of China would agree on.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> The weakest but far most amusing trolling play (which I personally adore) is when the trolls (whether right or left) try to gaslight you by claiming they aren’t trolls. Like it’s not their entire reason for being here, the act behind their characters and what drives them psychologically. The only thing that surpasses it is when one troll joins another to say “what troll?  Nothing to see here but us puppies. Oh you meant you troll.”  It’s my ab fav and always brings a smile to my face.


I looked in the mirror and I loved what I saw. Hi, my name is Troll


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> The weakest but far most amusing trolling play (which I personally adore) is when the trolls (whether right or left) try to gaslight you by claiming they aren’t trolls. Like it’s not their entire reason for being here, the act behind their characters and what drives them psychologically. The only thing that surpasses it is when one troll joins another to say “what troll?  Nothing to see here but us puppies. Oh you meant you troll.”  It’s my ab fav and always brings a smile to my face.


As I have said multiple times we are, almost, all trolls, there are only a couple exceptions. I mean really who gives a shit?


----------



## espola

Hüsker Dü said:


> As I have said multiple times we are, almost, all trolls, there are only a couple exceptions. I mean really who gives a shit?


This is not the first time that Grace has attempted to defend a weak position by claiming that I am a troll (thus weakening her position even more, in my eyes).


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> As I have said multiple times we are, almost, all trolls, there are only a couple exceptions. I mean really who gives a shit?


Nah. Psychological motivations of people interest me. You are here because of trolling. There are a handful of ultimate motivations for why trolls troll. Dad4 and I are what you call crusaders. Folks like evil goalie and crush are mavericks. Who gives a shit?  Well I do. It interests me. Clearly you do too or you wouldn’t do what you do (either that or you are a complete psychopath and while some trolls are, most are in it for either amusement or a sense of power). The folks who were concerned and looking for info or were in mental breakdowns are long gone and could give an f about this topic or sub forum. You could also say who gives a shit about youth soccer! 




espola said:


> This is not the first time that Grace has attempted to defend a weak position by claiming that I am a troll (thus weakening her position even more, in my eyes).


Again it’s a question of motivation. You amuse me. That’s mine.  I suspect your trolling amuses you….which is why you do you. The fact that you think I would care about weakening my position in your eyes and use it as some kind of slur is funny…which again takes us back full circle: “ make me laugh again clown….please”


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Nah. Psychological motivations of people interest me. You are here because of trolling. There are a handful of ultimate motivations for why trolls troll. Dad4 and I are what you call crusaders. Folks like evil goalie and crush are mavericks. Who gives a shit?  Well I do. It interests me. Clearly you do too or you wouldn’t do what you do (either that or you are a complete psychopath and while some trolls are, most are in it for either amusement or a sense of power). The folks who were concerned and looking for info or were in mental breakdowns are long gone and could give an f about this topic or sub forum. You could also say who gives a shit about youth soccer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again it’s a question of motivation. You amuse me. That’s mine.  I suspect your trolling amuses you….which is why you do you. The fact that you think I would care about weakening my position in your eyes and use it as some kind of slur is funny…which again takes us back full circle: “ make me laugh again clown….please”


What makes someone a maverick?
Mavericks are *visionaries who want to achieve what's never been achieved before*. They're not fans of the status quo and will shake things up. Mavericks tend to be innovative, influential, daring, and direct—with a remarkably high tolerance for taking chances.

I like Maverick for Crush Grace T and that is the best compliment I ever got on here. I got a little emotional inside my heart. Thank you for seeing me and me. Yes, were ALL dealing with a few psychopaths at the SoCal Soccer Forum & Youth Soccer. Not only did they get they get their hands on the soccer cookie jar, they stole the jar and made $$$ off the rich parents who will pay whatever it takes to play with best of the best. Congrats to Evil Goalie as well


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Nah. Psychological motivations of people interest me. You are here because of trolling. There are a handful of ultimate motivations for why trolls troll. Dad4 and I are what you call crusaders. Folks like evil goalie and crush are mavericks. Who gives a shit?  Well I do. It interests me. Clearly you do too or you wouldn’t do what you do (either that or you are a complete psychopath and while some trolls are, most are in it for either amusement or a sense of power). The folks who were concerned and looking for info or were in mental breakdowns are long gone and could give an f about this topic or sub forum. You could also say who gives a shit about youth soccer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again it’s a question of motivation. You amuse me. That’s mine.  I suspect your trolling amuses you….which is why you do you. The fact that you think I would care about weakening my position in your eyes and use it as some kind of slur is funny…which again takes us back full circle: “ make me laugh again clown….please”


You're rationalizing.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You're rationalizing.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Look at them ALL with their mask uniform. Wow!! Poor San Fran. What a mess. My mother used to take us up to Fisherman's Warf and we had so many fun places to hang out.


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Nah. Psychological motivations of people interest me. You are here because of trolling. There are a handful of ultimate motivations for why trolls troll. Dad4 and I are what you call crusaders. Folks like evil goalie and crush are mavericks. Who gives a shit?  Well I do. It interests me. Clearly you do too or you wouldn’t do what you do (either that or you are a complete psychopath and while some trolls are, most are in it for either amusement or a sense of power). The folks who were concerned and looking for info or were in mental breakdowns are long gone and could give an f about this topic or sub forum. You could also say who gives a shit about youth soccer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again it’s a question of motivation. You amuse me. That’s mine.  I suspect your trolling amuses you….which is why you do you. The fact that you think I would care about weakening my position in your eyes and use it as some kind of slur is funny…which again takes us back full circle: “ make me laugh again clown….please”


You misunderstood my who gives a shit in a typical ego-driven fashion. That kind of response is predictable and boring. “Let’s get back to me shall we!”


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> You misunderstood my who gives a shit in a typical ego-driven fashion. That kind of response is predictable and boring. “Let’s get back to me shall we!”


so you don't really have an opinion or position on anything, you just like being an attention troll.  Got it.


----------



## crush




----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> View attachment 14466



Pass this info along Crush, they are NOW quietly compensating individuals who
have been injured/killed by the " COVID-19 " Vaccines.

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA 

Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) | HRSA 


This will Awaken all the Vaccines Addicts as to what they did to themselves.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Well, it looks like more cheating from those who were bribed and most likely to do as told or their kids will be tossed in a woodchipper down in Maricopa. They have to put up a fence to keep the folks safe when they go nuts after the steal? I feel bad that people are so compromised.  By the way, Election integrity candidate Mark Finchem is sweeping the floor in every AZ county... but those same voters abandoned Kari Lake and went for Karrin Taylor?  Ya right! I'm sure the pyschopaths on here will claim victory.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Dodgers Announcer Vin Scully Calls Out Socialism: It NEVER Works
					

2016: “Socialism failing to work, as it always does, this time in Venezuela. You talk about giving everybody something free and all of a sudden there’s no food to eat. And who do you think is the rich




					rumble.com


----------



## Multi Sport

Happened again said:


> so you don't really have an opinion or position on anything, you just like being an attention troll.  Got it.


Ratboy was born that way...


----------



## crush

*Its truly sick how people have been treated the last 2 1/2 years.  Made sick! Kept sick! Families ripped apart! Fired for saying no to jab!  Forced to wear a mask! Children not allowed in school! Cant be educated! Loose social interactions! On so many levels humanity has been abused by psychopaths!!!!*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*"This morning, I held a secure phone call with my national security team."*

Why the mask?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Breaking Covid 19 News: 
Prayers to our President Joe Biden. He has Rona again. Get well soon Mr. President. We need you back ASAP! 

President Joe Biden is continuing to struggle with COVID-19, according to his administration.

The president has* tested positive for the virus a third time*, while the White House physician also noted that Biden has now developed a cough.

Late last month, Dr. Kevin O’Connor, Biden’s doctor, noted that the president had recovered following his initial diagnosis. But in a memorandum issued on Wednesday, O’Connor said he had once again tested positive for the virus.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

9 years for a vap pin with hippie lettuce oil in it? Wowza, that seems awfully harsh and I hope Brittney can get out asap and learn from this nightmare. I feel bad for her


----------



## crush

Breaking News!!!


----------



## crush

NEW Drip Boom*** FBI Director Christopher Wray also just testified that "a number of people" who worked on Crossfire Hurricane are under internal investigation but suggested that none have been fired because the probes have been "slowed down" due to* "cooperation and assistance" *with John Durham's criminal investigation.


----------



## thirteenknots

crush said:


> 9 years for a vap pin with hippie lettuce oil in it? Wowza, that seems awfully harsh and I hope Brittney can get out asap and learn from this nightmare. I feel bad for her
> 
> View attachment 14486



Just remember, she alone chose to work/live under Russian Laws.
And although I don't agree with any of her viewpoints...JOE BIDEN is
to blame for her arrest and subsequent incarceration. He and his ilk
have made Russia the whipping boy for all of " Their " Crimes against
the USA. Now Brittany is the latest pawn in this Game of Thrones.


----------



## Grace T.

Wow the economic news is unprecedently bad:

-the supply port log jams (which got a little better but never went away) are growing again
-jobless claims are rising.  some high profile places like Walmart have announced layoffs
-credit card debt is piling up.  rather than cut back, consumers have been shifting their spending levels to debt
-business confidence is low, the expectation seems to be inflation accelerates, and short term business investment is off
-there are predictions that Europe may freeze this winter, but at a minimum, heating is going to be very expensive

All indications are we haven't cleared the disruptions from the pandemic and the resulting government reactions yet (whether lockdowns or money printing).  It's not looking like the so-called "soft landing" either...it looks like they've neither done enough to contract inflation substantially but enough to tank the economy anyways.  The credit card debt is particularly worrying...it's building a bubble that's bound to pop eventually.  

The question is whether the summer has been a pause as the roller coaster hits the top of the hills and before it drops, or if we are really get the soft landing that was promised.  I'm skeptical of the latter.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

They will redefine the term “soft landing” so that it too fits within their narrative.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Wow the economic news is unprecedently bad:
> 
> -the supply port log jams (which got a little better but never went away) are growing again
> -jobless claims are rising.  some high profile places like Walmart have announced layoffs
> -credit card debt is piling up.  rather than cut back, consumers have been shifting their spending levels to debt
> -business confidence is low, the expectation seems to be inflation accelerates, and short term business investment is off
> -there are predictions that Europe may freeze this winter, but at a minimum, heating is going to be very expensive
> 
> All indications are we haven't cleared the disruptions from the pandemic and the resulting government reactions yet (whether lockdowns or money printing).  It's not looking like the so-called "soft landing" either...it looks like they've neither done enough to contract inflation substantially but enough to tank the economy anyways.  The credit card debt is particularly worrying...it's building a bubble that's bound to pop eventually.
> 
> The question is whether the summer has been a pause as the roller coaster hits the top of the hills and before it drops, or if we are really get the soft landing that was promised.  I'm skeptical of the latter.


Will a red wave in November restore consumer confidence?  Sometimes form over substance isn't entirely without merit.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Will a red wave in November restore consumer confidence?  Sometimes form over substance isn't entirely without merit.


While the house is most certainly to flip, the Rs have done badly in their nominations for the Senate (there is an outside chance the Ds hold it) and in governors races.  However, if we are at the tip of the rollercoaster, the worst may yet be to come.  The Ds seem to be settling on throwing Biden under the bus and running away from him, and have gotten a bounce from Dobbs.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> While the house is most certainly to flip, the Rs have done badly in their nominations for the Senate (there is an outside chance the Ds hold it) and in governors races.  However, if we are at the tip of the rollercoaster, the worst may yet be to come.  The Ds seem to be settling on throwing Biden under the bus and running away from him, and have gotten a bounce from Dobbs.


Well maybe Democrats will vote for Trump Republicans in November like they've done in the primaries.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> While the house is most certainly to flip, the Rs have done badly in their nominations for the Senate (there is an outside chance the Ds hold it) and in governors races.  However, if we are at the tip of the rollercoaster, the worst may yet be to come.  The Ds seem to be settling on throwing Biden under the bus and running away from him, and have gotten a bounce from Dobbs.


Certainly?  Which House seats will flip?  Will any R house seats flip?

Don't ignore that the Supreme Court has ripped open the belly of the GOP.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Certainly?  Which House seats will flip?  Will any R house seats flip?
> 
> Don't ignore that the Supreme Court has ripped open the belly of the GOP.


Ok, what's your prediction?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, what's your prediction?


I don't do predictions, but I can see which way the wind is blowing.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Well maybe Democrats will vote for Trump Republicans in November like they've done in the primaries.


Did they vote for them?  Or just pump them up with free advertising?


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Did they vote for them?  Or just pump them up with free advertising?


is pumping these candidates with money how we save democracy?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Brav520 said:


> is pumping these candidates with money how we save democracy?


Oh no. It's genius moves like these that will unite our country and save our democracy.








						Newsom Asks Hollywood to Stop Filming in Conservative States
					

The California governor says film companies should “walk the walk” on abortion rights and L.G.B.T.Q. protections by leaving states such as Georgia and Oklahoma.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Brav520

Is Patrick Bateman going run for president ?


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Did they vote for them?  Or just pump them up with free advertising?


Thanks for correcting my sarcasm.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

kickingandscreaming said:


> Oh no. It's genius moves like these that will unite our country and save our democracy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newsom Asks Hollywood to Stop Filming in Conservative States
> 
> 
> The California governor says film companies should “walk the walk” on abortion rights and L.G.B.T.Q. protections by leaving states such as Georgia and Oklahoma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Yah cause it will be cheaper for him to Vacation there if it’s perceived as less desirable. 

He’s such an elitist hypocrite!!!  Which likely explains why Californians voted for him.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Thanks for correcting my error.


I corrected your error for you.


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> is pumping these candidates with money how we save democracy?


Look at that look. Someone get to him? These poor politicians got way over their heads. Pay to play is real!!


----------



## Brav520

crush said:


> Look at that look. Someone get to him? These poor politicians got way over their heads. Pay to play is real!!
> 
> View attachment 14488


Looks like he has to shit


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> Looks like he has to shit


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> I don't do predictions, but I can see which way the wind is blowing.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Clown world update:

100,000 Fentanyl deaths is not an emergency.

- but Monkeypox is.


----------



## crush

Monkey News from CDC: 
*Have monkeypox? CDC advises no sex, but says masturbation 6 feet apart or virtual sex reduce risk*
*CDC says having sex with clothes on is another way to reduce risk of monkeypox transmission*


----------



## thirteenknots

2200 Spanish Politicians, Business leaders & Celebrities Got "FAKE JAB" & Bought FALSE Vaccine Certificates - Police Investigation Uncovered. - WorldNews INSIDER (wninsider.com) 


Remember the posts about the 80/20 Vaccine trays with Saline?

Yep, it was true.

All these spineless Politicians ( United States ) have most likely 
been receiving the same " treatments. Thus the surprise COVID
infections. And YES the Vaccines ( If you want to call them that ) 
are making everything worse. Who knows who got what and what
is in each vile.... Literal Crap shoot.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

My new favorite scientist.








						Top scientist admits 'space telescope image' was actually a slice of chorizo | CNN
					

A French scientist has apologized after tweeting a photo of a slice of chorizo, claiming it was an image of a distant star taken by the James Webb Space Telescope.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## thirteenknots

kickingandscreaming said:


> My new favorite scientist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top scientist admits 'space telescope image' was actually a slice of chorizo | CNN
> 
> 
> A French scientist has apologized after tweeting a photo of a slice of chorizo, claiming it was an image of a distant star taken by the James Webb Space Telescope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

thirteenknots said:


> View attachment 14499


A picture riddle. Hmmm. Is it dolphin deposit? Seems like a lot.


----------



## thirteenknots

kickingandscreaming said:


> A picture riddle. Hmmm. Is it dolphin deposit? Seems like a lot.


You're a bottom dweller ?


----------



## crush




----------



## thirteenknots

COVID Vaccine Data - OpenVAERS


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> My new favorite scientist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top scientist admits 'space telescope image' was actually a slice of chorizo | CNN
> 
> 
> A French scientist has apologized after tweeting a photo of a slice of chorizo, claiming it was an image of a distant star taken by the James Webb Space Telescope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Nice to see a scientist that doesn't take himself too seriously.  Welcome change from the arrogance of the last two years.


----------



## crush




----------



## kickingandscreaming

thirteenknots said:


> You're a bottom dweller ?


Not really. I just remember many bad jokes from my youth. So, does that mean I got it right?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Nice to see a scientist that doesn't take himself too seriously.  Welcome change from the arrogance of the last two years.


How illuminating!


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Nice to see a scientist that doesn't take himself too seriously.  Welcome change from the arrogance of the last two years.


The scientists are mostly the same.  

It only strikes you as arrogant when one of them says something you don’t want to hear.  I’m sure plenty of people also see climate scientists as arrogant, and for essentially the same reason.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> The scientists are mostly the same.


BS. You even said the ones in the public eye are different from those working in the background. If you are unhappy that more of those in the background aren't better represented, blame the press who decides who to cover or the scientists who refuse to speak out. Also, it's more than a bit presumptuous to assume "scientists are mostly the same." If they are, it is an environment ripe for "group think" - which may explain some things.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> BS. You even said the ones in the public eye are different from those working in the background. If you are unhappy that more of those in the background aren't better represented, blame the press who decides who to cover or the scientists who refuse to speak out. Also, it's more than a bit presumptuous to assume "scientists are mostly the same." If they are, it is an environment ripe for "group think" - which may explain some things.


Coocoo.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Coocoo.


are you one of those that likes to adjust/describe science to fit ideology?  Maybe throw around the words "public health"?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> are you one of those that likes to adjust/describe science to fit ideology?  Maybe throw around the words "public health"?


No.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> BS. You even said the ones in the public eye are different from those working in the background. If you are unhappy that more of those in the background aren't better represented, blame the press who decides who to cover or the scientists who refuse to speak out. Also, it's more than a bit presumptuous to assume "scientists are mostly the same." If they are, it is an environment ripe for "group think" - which may explain some things.


Did you think a scientist was going to step in to block publication of that “surfing risk from covid” article?

That’s not really how it works.  There is a peer review process, but it doesn’t apply to local newspapers.  If you want the peer reviewed version, that exists, too.  

 It’s like that in every field.  There are serious statistics behind Man City’s latest trade.  Then there are the sports reporters filling columns.  The newspaper version isn’t very deep or very accurate there, either.


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The scientists are mostly the same.
> 
> It only strikes you as arrogant when one of them says something you don’t want to hear.  I’m sure plenty of people also see climate scientists as arrogant, and for essentially the same reason.


Show me some scientists that retracted or apologized for an erroneous Covid prediction, or was disciplined or fired for making false and misleading Covid statements and I will change my opinion.   In the real world you would get fired for some of the things that came out of the so called experts mouth.  However, in academia you can't get terminated for making false statements because of tenure and under the guise of academic freedom.  Although lately it seems you can be fired for true, but un-woke statements.  It's an upside down world lately.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Happened again said:


> are you one of those that likes to adjust/describe science to fit ideology?  Maybe throw around the words "public health"?


Is that A rhetorical question?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Did you think a scientist was going to step in to block publication of that “surfing risk from covid” article?


So, that's the only alternative? There are other forms of dissent that have been historically used on occasion in this country. You know, like expressing an alternative opinion. The "surfing risk" and the "hurricane of covid" Osterholm predicted were opinions. I don't suppose it should be surprising that less authoritarian approaches to dissent elude you and others. It's what happens when promoting a desired response is the primary objective of publically presenting information is combined with an elitist attitude of "we know what's best for people" and "people can't handle the truth." Add to that ostracizing other opinions, and here we are.

I agree. The media has long lost any sense of unbiased integrity. It would be a shame to see science go down that same path.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Coocoo.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, that's the only alternative? There are other forms of dissent that have been historically used on occasion in this country. You know, like expressing an alternative opinion. The "surfing risk" and the "hurricane of covid" Osterholm predicted were opinions. I don't suppose it should be surprising that less authoritarian approaches to dissent elude you and others. It's what happens when promoting a desired response is the primary objective of publically presenting information is combined with an elitist attitude of "we know what's best for people" and "people can't handle the truth." Add to that ostracizing other opinions, and here we are.
> 
> I agree. The media has long lost any sense of unbiased integrity. It would be a shame to see science go down that same path.


Alternative opinions were expressed.  I don’t remember anyone other than Osterholm going in for the hurricane of covid theory.   And one Scripps researcher is not the same as a scientific consensus.  

Of course, the existence of alternative opinions does not necessarily mean that you’ll like them any better.   If someone had told you that Beta would lead to another 100,00 deaths, would you have believed it or chalked it up to “group think”?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Amazing how LA Co case rates have been dropping so quickly despite no mask mandate……


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Amazing how LA Co case rates have been dropping so quickly despite no mask mandate……


That's weird, its almost like the virus does whatever it wants to do and doesn't care what we do.  Of course, that's not possible because we all know we can control any virus with vaccines, masks, closing schools and not going out to eat or drink.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's weird, its almost like the virus does whatever it wants to do and doesn't care what we do.  Of course, that's not possible because we all know we can control any virus with vaccines, masks, closing schools and not going out to eat or drink.


You’re right.  The virus is going to do whatever it wants.

Why does the virus hate us so much more than it hates Australia and Japan?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You’re right.  The virus is going to do whatever it wants.
> 
> Why does the virus hate us so much more than it hates Australia and Japan?


And hates Utah too...oh yeah because it loves drinkers.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> You’re right.  The virus is going to do whatever it wants.
> 
> Why does the virus hate us so much more than it hates Australia and Japan?


Border isolation


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Border isolation


Covid made it to Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.  

If the virus is going to do whatever it wants, why didn’t the virus grow when it got past the border?  I don’t think a border control station at the airport is going to do anything about community spread in downtown Tokyo.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Covid made it to Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.
> 
> If the virus is going to do whatever it wants, why didn’t the virus grow when it got past the border?  I don’t think a border control station at the airport is going to do anything about community spread in downtown Tokyo.











						Japan COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Japan Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Err....look at the numbers....it took off in Australia after they dropped their restrictions.   It took off in Japan after the Olympics....there's a lull in June (very tight border controls after the Olympics) and then whoosh!  You aren't even looking at the facts anymore....just wholesale making up stuff.

At least you finally admit the solution you like is Australia and New Zealand.  I would think in your religion confession would be good for the soul.


----------



## crush

Had appointment at B of A and their location closed down. Big line of folks not happy. Basically, I was told the branch manager tested+ 4 Covid and the whole office freaked out and no one will work....lol! You can't make this up. Told to be shut down for two weeks find another location or bank. The branch by my house is closed for good and the second closest one is also closed and now this one at #3. These asshats are destroying our country and not the folks at the bank. Manager is super cool and told me on Friday the Truth is going to hit fan and then We The People Will Take Our Stand!!!! So sad. Old people with the look of fear and stupid mask on and now they can't get their $$$. People were pissed off and want their money now!!! No way these cheaters will allow Mid Terms to go on. When you hurt people like this it's because no one wants to go to jail forever. God helps us


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Japan COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Japan Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Err....look at the numbers....it took off in Australia after they dropped their restrictions.   It took off in Japan after the Olympics....there's a lull in June (very tight border controls after the Olympics) and then whoosh!  You aren't even looking at the facts anymore....just wholesale making up stuff.
> 
> At least you finally admit the solution you like is Australia and New Zealand.  I would think in your religion confession would be good for the soul.


Cases take off after you lift restrictions.

That’s why smart places kept their restrictions in place until after they vaccinated the population.  

It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Cases take off after you lift restrictions.
> 
> That’s why smart places kept their restrictions in place until after they vaccinated the population.
> 
> It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not.


"Cases take off after you lift restrictions"

Depends on the restrictions.  Again, Los Angeles implemented you indoor dining vision.  Didn't help.  Los Angeles masking vis-a-vis OC's non didn't help.  NZ/Australia restrictions...absolutely...glad you are finally being honest about your preference for them....the question then becomes you willing to trade that for the lives saved.  Japan their chief safe guard was the border controls...it help limit the impact from the Olympics but you see what happens when one of the later omicron snuck through. 

"That's why smart place kept their restriction in place until after they vaccinated the population"

No.  You only needed them in place until the 50 and over crowd was offered the vaccination.  You didn't need to force your population to make the decision (they are all adults and can make up their own mind re the risk).  You didn't need to wait for the children.

"It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not."

Yes, it's pretty clear vaccination blunted the impact of deaths.  Places with high vaccination uptake, particularly among the elderly, do well (China has it backwards with high vaccination among workers and low among elderly hence their panic over the lockdowns).  If you take out the early nursing home deaths (Sweden did the same as NY/NJ in the nursing home), Sweden's excess death rate is on par with Norway (which didn't have masks).  Vaccination (the numbers and how early they got it) and, for those nations that chose to implement it, really harsh lockdowns coupled with severe border controls are the only things which made a difference.  The rest is serendipity (oh and density/living conditions).  That why you have Norway with no masks and loose lockdowns that did so well, and Peru that had harsh long lasting but leaky lockdowns and open borders and masks did so poorly.


----------



## crush

WOW - New Science Shows Vaccines Help Omicron Spread: Peer Reviewed Study


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> "Cases take off after you lift restrictions"
> 
> Depends on the restrictions.  Again, Los Angeles implemented you indoor dining vision.  Didn't help.  Los Angeles masking vis-a-vis OC's non didn't help.  NZ/Australia restrictions...absolutely...glad you are finally being honest about your preference for them....the question then becomes you willing to trade that for the lives saved.  Japan their chief safe guard was the border controls...it help limit the impact from the Olympics but you see what happens when one of the later omicron snuck through.
> 
> "That's why smart place kept their restriction in place until after they vaccinated the population"
> 
> No.  You only needed them in place until the 50 and over crowd was offered the vaccination.  You didn't need to force your population to make the decision (they are all adults and can make up their own mind re the risk).  You didn't need to wait for the children.
> 
> "It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not."
> 
> Yes, it's pretty clear vaccination blunted the impact of deaths.  Places with high vaccination uptake, particularly among the elderly, do well (China has it backwards with high vaccination among workers and low among elderly hence their panic over the lockdowns).  If you take out the early nursing home deaths (Sweden did the same as NY/NJ in the nursing home), Sweden's excess death rate is on par with Norway (which didn't have masks).  Vaccination (the numbers and how early they got it) and, for those nations that chose to implement it, really harsh lockdowns coupled with severe border controls are the only things which made a difference.  The rest is serendipity (oh and density/living conditions).  That why you have Norway with no masks and loose lockdowns that did so well, and Peru that had harsh long lasting but leaky lockdowns and open borders and masks did so poorly.


You still haven't explained why cases in Japan and Australia didn't rise in 2020 and 2021.

If masks and NPI don't work, then Tokyo and Melbourne would have seen an explosion in cases during fall of 2020.  They didn't.  Something worked, and it wasn't just border controls.


----------



## crush

Tragic Breaking News: Mother Died Unexpectedly in Her Sleep in Front of Her Kids While on a Flight from Hong Kong to UK.

SADS is real folks and the losers who have lied, cheated and stole from us have only one place to go when this is all over and they all know it. It's just a matter of time. So many are dying and the psycho's and their pals just want to talk mask BS. These selfish fathers and trolls only care about one thing. I don't mention the deaths of frens or frens of frens anymore because it's happening everyday now and it's frankly depressing to chat about. RIP to all those who will die from SADS, it truly is sad and if you get the Monkeypox, I'm also sad for you. I heard that a wife and her kids got it from hubby who was living a double life and was up to his sneaky old ways. You will all get exposed sooner rather than later and Karma will bite you in the ass at the right time if you don't stop this madness.


----------



## crush

Mid Term Breaking Poll News: Almost 70% of ALL voters are concerned about cheating in the Mid terms. Gee, I wonder why? These monsters have destroyed people's lives. Asshat dads on here think this is funny and just laugh all this off. Karma is coming!!!


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> "Cases take off after you lift restrictions"
> 
> Depends on the restrictions.  Again, Los Angeles implemented you indoor dining vision.  Didn't help.  Los Angeles masking vis-a-vis OC's non didn't help.  NZ/Australia restrictions...absolutely...glad you are finally being honest about your preference for them....the question then becomes you willing to trade that for the lives saved.  Japan their chief safe guard was the border controls...it help limit the impact from the Olympics but you see what happens when one of the later omicron snuck through.
> 
> "That's why smart place kept their restriction in place until after they vaccinated the population"
> 
> No.  You only needed them in place until the 50 and over crowd was offered the vaccination.  You didn't need to force your population to make the decision (they are all adults and can make up their own mind re the risk).  You didn't need to wait for the children.
> 
> "It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not."
> 
> Yes, it's pretty clear vaccination blunted the impact of deaths.  Places with high vaccination uptake, particularly among the elderly, do well (China has it backwards with high vaccination among workers and low among elderly hence their panic over the lockdowns).  If you take out the early nursing home deaths (Sweden did the same as NY/NJ in the nursing home), Sweden's excess death rate is on par with Norway (which didn't have masks).  Vaccination (the numbers and how early they got it) and, for those nations that chose to implement it, really harsh lockdowns coupled with severe border controls are the only things which made a difference.  The rest is serendipity (oh and density/living conditions).  That why you have Norway with no masks and loose lockdowns that did so well, and Peru that had harsh long lasting but leaky lockdowns and open borders and masks did so poorly.


The types of restrictions that Dad4 wants/wanted are not culturally viable or logistically feasible in the United States.   When you live in a country that values freedom (likely more so than any other country) you have to take the good with the bad.   We don't have a switch that we can just flip from individual independence to authoritarian control when politicians think the conditions warrant it.  That's why health policy has to be developed that takes into account a population's culture.  A one size fits all approach doesn't work across countries, let alone cities and states.

I know we're trying to rewrite history but I have a vague recollection that we declared independence from Britain because of government oppression and that the country was founded on the concepts of freedom, limited government and individual responsibility.

Now individual responsibility doesn't work very well when you don't have accountability.  That's why maybe we didn't fare as well as other countries because we didn't have accountability from some citizens, politicians, health experts, etc.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You still haven't explained why cases in Japan and Australia didn't rise in 2020 and 2021.
> 
> If masks and NPI don't work, then Tokyo and Melbourne would have seen an explosion in cases during fall of 2020.  They didn't.  Something worked, and it wasn't just border controls.


I said NPIs do work.  They just need to be the really harsh ones that Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and China did.  That's the choice.  Really severe lockdowns or Sweden.  Everything else whether the harsh leaky lockdowns of Peru, the periodic lockdowns of Europe, the indoor dining ban of Los Angeles, the masks of Germany or the no masks but light lockdowns of Norway failed.

Like I told you as well, I think masks help a little on a case by case basis when the R0 is much lower than it was for Omicron and Delta, particularly if they are a really good mask.  Border controls and/or being an island also worked until you got a leak (see also Taiwan besides Japan).  You also know I think Asia had some cross reactivity from other coronaviruses because Japan had far less testing, lockdowns and masking than Peru and was far more dense, yet finished better, and the Phillipines had better testing than Japan, more severe masking, and more lockdowns, yet finished substantially worse, and Spain had one of the most severe mask mandates in the world and finished substantially worse.  Japan is also, from a cultural point of view, really good at distancing despite the density, where Peru, the Philippines and Spain are certainly not, and it makes a difference if you are masking in separate apartments or masking over tapas laughing with a bunch of friends.


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> I said NPIs do work.  They just need to be the really harsh ones that Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and China did.  That's the choice.  Really severe lockdowns or Sweden.  Everything else whether the harsh leaky lockdowns of Peru, the periodic lockdowns of Europe, the indoor dining ban of Los Angeles, the masks of Germany or the no masks but light lockdowns of Norway failed.
> 
> Like I told you as well, I think masks help a little on a case by case basis when the R0 is much lower than it was for Omicron and Delta, particularly if they are a really good mask.  Border controls and/or being an island also worked until you got a leak (see also Taiwan besides Japan).  You also know I think Asia had some cross reactivity from other coronaviruses because Japan had far less testing, lockdowns and masking than Peru and was far more dense, yet finished better, and the Phillipines had better testing than Japan, more severe masking, and more lockdowns, yet finished substantially worse, and Spain had one of the most severe mask mandates in the world and finished substantially worse.  Japan is also, from a cultural point of view, really good at distancing despite the density, where Peru, the Philippines and Spain are certainly not, and it makes a difference if you are masking in separate apartments or masking over tapas laughing with a bunch of friends.


In any case, from a policy standpoint (as opposed to moral behavior) I think you can replicate the experience of Australia/New Zealand (you just probably end up in a civil war in the United States both against the BLM protestors and the red states defying you) but you can't replicate what happened in Japan (island, long term masking culture, respectful of distancing while sick, possible coronavirus cross reactivity).


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Japan COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Japan Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Err....look at the numbers....it took off in Australia after they dropped their restrictions.   It took off in Japan after the Olympics....there's a lull in June (very tight border controls after the Olympics) and then whoosh!  You aren't even looking at the facts anymore....just wholesale making up stuff.
> 
> At least you finally admit the solution you like is Australia and New Zealand.  I would think in your religion confession would be good for the soul.


So are you switching teams now? Seems you made a great point for mandates and restrictions.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I said NPIs do work.  They just need to be the really harsh ones that Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and China did.  That's the choice.  Really severe lockdowns or Sweden.  Everything else whether the harsh leaky lockdowns of Peru, the periodic lockdowns of Europe, the indoor dining ban of Los Angeles, the masks of Germany or the no masks but light lockdowns of Norway failed.
> 
> Like I told you as well, I think masks help a little on a case by case basis when the R0 is much lower than it was for Omicron and Delta, particularly if they are a really good mask.  Border controls and/or being an island also worked until you got a leak (see also Taiwan besides Japan).  You also know I think Asia had some cross reactivity from other coronaviruses because Japan had far less testing, lockdowns and masking than Peru and was far more dense, yet finished better, and the Phillipines had better testing than Japan, more severe masking, and more lockdowns, yet finished substantially worse, and Spain had one of the most severe mask mandates in the world and finished substantially worse.  Japan is also, from a cultural point of view, really good at distancing despite the density, where Peru, the Philippines and Spain are certainly not, and it makes a difference if you are masking in separate apartments or masking over tapas laughing with a bunch of friends.


So now you say that masks and NPI work somewhat, if you actually follow them.  (  If you take the mask off to get drinks with friends, then the mask wont do much good in your purse.  )

On that, we agree.


----------



## crush

We live in a world in which 1 in 15 AZ GOP governor voters “forgot” to vote for Secretary of State.
Or is that actually the case? Karrin wants to speak to Kari’s manager about those 55k ballots.
Thanks for reading!

BTW, RIP Olivia Newton-John. We need the men to shape up. I have never in my life been around the weakest and milt toast fathers ever. Total sells outs and not real man at all.


----------



## crush

Rhino Liz's hubby is partners with the lawyer who represents Hunter and the Lap top from hell. I mean this is insane and little psycho and his bros on here love Liz & Dick so much. They hated Dick in 2001 but sure love him now because he hate Trump & says Trump is the most dangerous American in the last 246 years.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> So now you say that masks and NPI work somewhat, if you actually follow them.  (  If you take the mask off to get drinks with friends, then the mask wont do much good in your purse.  )
> 
> On that, we agree.


Again you are moralizing and I’m doing policy. Short of mask police there’s no way to force people to mask properly therefore there’s no way to macro it up

you know something else that would have helped that did in Japan?  Weight loss.  Los Angeles would have been better off forcing people to eat sushi, taxing them for every pound gained and opening the outdoor facilities than what they did which is another huge difference between Japan and the phillipines.


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So are you switching teams now? Seems you made a great point for mandates and restrictions.


I’m saying the choice is real long last thing and very harsh mandates and restrictions v none at all.  Everything else is just theater.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Again you are moralizing and I’m doing policy. Short of mask police there’s no way to force people to mask properly therefore there’s no way to macro it up
> 
> you know something else that would have helped that did in Japan?  Weight loss.  Los Angeles would have been better off forcing people to eat sushi, taxing them for every pound gained and opening the outdoor facilities than what they did which is another huge difference between Japan and the phillipines.


Let's be honest Grace T. LA is fat and out of shape and very unhealthy. The fear on people's faces are real. I told everyone 3 years ago and I will say it again, take care of your health #1. I don't eat meat at all and only go veggies, fruits and more veggies. I love Avo toast and potato tacos. I drink only water. No booze. I walk and swim for exercise. The fat dads I know all wear masks and they live in fear.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Cases take off after you lift restrictions.
> 
> That’s why smart places kept their restrictions in place until after they vaccinated the population.
> 
> It worked.  Their death rate stayed low.  Ours did not.


man, if only one thing worked to keep death rates low...too bad American society tends to be on the unhealthy side...that kinda skews things...


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> man, if only one thing worked to keep death rates low...too bad American society tends to be on the unhealthy side...that kinda skews things...


So many kids of today are obese, lazy, play video games all day & smoke weed all day. Papa is afraid because he cheated life and is checked out. Remember the movie, "Click?" Fat dad would rather have the healthy & critical thinker be locked out of life, forced jab + boosters plus wear mask forever or lose all the buy & sell gig. This is what happens when dads become fat & lazy. They also cheat their immune system and then force their life style on us.  These asshats wanted me to lose everything and folks to get fired two and half years ago. I have it all on tape here. Copa said just use your rainy day funds....lol! So many sold out and rushed to get in line for the Jim Jones Kool Aid jabs and now SADS is everywhere. Everything they lied about is on record. Karma is coming


----------



## Grace T.

Hüsker Dü said:


> So are you switching teams now? Seems you made a great point for mandates and restrictions.


You also seem to be struggling with the twin concepts of coulda v shoulda.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> That’s why smart places kept their restrictions in place until after they vaccinated the population.


Why would you restrict the activities of those that have been vaccinated because others wouldn't get vaccinated?  That makes absolutely zero sense.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Again you are moralizing and I’m doing policy. Short of mask police there’s no way to force people to mask properly therefore there’s no way to macro it up
> 
> you know something else that would have helped that did in Japan?  Weight loss.  Los Angeles would have been better off forcing people to eat sushi, taxing them for every pound gained and opening the outdoor facilities than what they did which is another huge difference between Japan and the phillipines.


That's rather close to saying "the advice was good, but we refused to take it."


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> That's rather close to saying "the advice was good, but we refused to take it."


No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars.  Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> That's rather close to saying "the advice was good, but we refused to take it."


Laws and regulations are political power.  Political power is the exercise of force, ultimately backed up at the barrel of the gun.  There is no "advice" in a mandate or regulation.  That's the difference between policy (which I do) and morality (which is what you do)

I would have been supportive of a public healthy initiative in 2020 that advised people to use good masks, discouraged indoor dining and superspreader events, and encouraged employers to keep workers home.  That's a far cry from the Australia/New Zealand regime that you want that arrested people for leaving their houses, left their citizens stranded abroad and prohibited them from leaving, forced people on pain of losing their jobs to get vaccinated, and shut down travel in between the provinces.

You made me laugh BTW.  Of course the authoritarian views authoritarian measures as "advice"


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars.  Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.


"You should all go out and buy electric cars to curb inflation and save the planet"....moralizing

"There's a tax credit for manufacturers to build electric cars of $10K"....policy (positive incentives)

"Gas cars are now banned.  People who drive them are thrown in jail"....policy (negative incentives)

None of the above practical desirable or feasible.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Trump says Mar-A-Lago home in Florida 'under siege' by FBI agents*
*Trump likened the reported 'siege' to what occurs in 'third-world countries'*


I bet all you Trump haters are happy the FBI is raiding his house right now. Wow, amazing what is happening to our once beautiful country. These people are rutless animals and will kill you and fire you if you don't obey or go away.


----------



## Grace T.

So Australian/New Zealand restrictions coulda been reproduced elsewhere in the world (we know that because of China and Vietnam, because neither is an island).  It would have been, however, as we see also from China and Vietnam, much more problematic in the United States because:

-Trump was President.  He realized within 2 months he had been played by Birx.  He wanted to reverse course (but was hamstrung in doing so without coming out before the election and admitting to everyone he was played)
-Unlike NZ and Australia, we were in season and COVID had already been circulating in the US for months and NY was already in a full outbreak when the trigger was pulled on lockdowns.
-The US border is much longer than Australia/New Zealand.  Would have required a hard shut down of air travel abroad and massive policing of the southern border even to US citizen (unpalatable to the Democratic party).  We would have had to treat the southern border like the Spanish treat Melilla and Trump couldn't even get his border wall done (assuming Canada would have gone along in a free north america zone). 
-The first amendment.  Would have required the suppression with force of the BLM protests when quarantine was broken.
-It would have required getting the courts to go along with shutting down travel between the states and cities despite the constitutional protections for interstate travel.  Florida had to back down when NY complained about the DeSantis embargo on New Yorkers coming to the state. 
-Federalism.  Would have required the federal government imposing its will on the states going so far as to remove DeSantis and Noem from power.
-Would have required the federal government to impose the lockdowns on an armed citizenry a large segment was opposed (who by koinkey dink also controlled the guns), not to mention a large enforcement regime where neighbors notified on neighbors for leaving their houses.  The courts would have had to have gone along with.
-Would have required the federal government to do a broader shutdown of essential businesses beyond what they did including takeout, construction, weed and alcohol.  The courts would have to go along with it despite the limits on the exercise of federal power over matters not affecting interstate commerce.

In other words, while theoretically an Aus/NZ might have been attempted by a President Hillary in an alternate universe, the end result was likely violence if not civil war both against the red staters and the BLMers.

And as for the shoulda, here's a good argument re New Zealand from GBD  Bhattacharya









						Zero Covid has cost New Zealand dearly
					

Jacinda Ardern was never the pandemic heroine she was made out to be.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## crush

*"Raid 45s home but not hunter bidens?  Weaponization of our govt for political gain. America you still think we put rule of law first?" *
From Kash


----------



## Grace T.

The Rubicon has just been crossed politically.  Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI.  If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI.  Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin.  As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail. 

Assuming Biden lives long enough, if the Rs win 2024 they are totally turning the Hunter situation against him.  If true, they will turn the covering of Joe Biden's mental state and possible dementia against those around him.

The Latin Americanization of US politics is here.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> *"Raid 45s home but not hunter bidens?  Weaponization of our govt for political gain. America you still think we put rule of law first?" *
> From Kash


Yup, the fact this is happening to Trump but not Biden after what's come out about Hunter will 100% be used, rightly or wrong, as justification to weaponize this.  Just like every President going forward will be impeached if the House is controlled by the opposite party, every outgoing administration will be investigated and if there is a even a sliver of justifiable evidence prosecuted for any malfeasance.  Bill Clinton would have had the book thrown at him for perjury.  Bush for the Iraq stuff.  Obama, if not he himself, members of his admin for the DEA stuff and IRS and Hillary.  Latin American politics here we come, which is bad because it makes losing the white house an existential threat to the politicians themselves.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Yup, the fact this is happening to Trump but not Biden after what's come out about Hunter will 100% be used, rightly or wrong, as justification to weaponize this.  Just like every President going forward will be impeached if the House is controlled by the opposite party, every outgoing administration will be investigated and if there is a even a sliver of justifiable evidence prosecuted for any malfeasance.  Bill Clinton would have had the book thrown at him for perjury.  Bush for the Iraq stuff.  Obama, if not he himself, members of his admin for the DEA stuff and IRS and Hillary.  Latin American politics here we come, which is bad because it makes losing the white house an existential threat to the politicians themselves.


I disagree. All this shows me is the whole system and all branches of government are corrupt, bought, bribed, blackmailed and compromised. We need help and I already told what will happen. This is not fixable and you know it. The question remains. Will people like you and others on here that hate Mr. trump stand up for a man who did nothing wrong and get treated like shit and as a criminal orr will folks say that is wrong? I'm afraid I already know this crew and so many want to go back to normal. You guys hate t so much that some will be happy that he get's arrested. Q said the first arrest will shock the world. I heard the FBI found some terrible things in his safe so he's busted....lol. I'm done for awhile. I could go off on all of you but I won't. Enjoy the wonderful day and I will come back later when I calm down.  Plus, the asshole is back. So many assholes on here I can't take it. Peace to you and your family.


----------



## Grace T.

crush said:


> I disagree. All this shows me is the whole system and all branches of government are corrupt, bought, bribed, blackmailed and compromised. We need help and I already told what will happen. This is not fixable and you know it. The question remains. Will people like you and others on here that hate Mr. trump stand up for a man who did nothing wrong and get treated like shit and as a criminal orr will folks say that is wrong? I'm afraid I already know this crew and so many want to go back to normal. You guys hate t so much that some will be happy that he get's arrested. Q said the first arrest will shock the world. I heard the FBI found some terrible things in his safe so he's busted....lol. I'm done for awhile. I could go off on all of you but I won't. Enjoy the wonderful day and I will come back later when I calm down.  Plus, the asshole is back. So many assholes on here I can't take it. Peace to you and your family.


He may very well be deserved to be arrested.  We haven't seen the evidence (the warrant, for the sake of transparency, needs to be released immediately)...though the FBI's prior conduct with the impeachments puts me on guard...particularly if it has to do with the Jan 6 incitement issue given everything we've learned from the D hearings.  My point is there were certainly grounds to rake Clinton over the coals but he got a slap on the wrist.  There was Bush and the lying about the justifications for the Iraq war.  There was Hillary and the emails.  There is Hunter Biden.  There's a difference between coulda and shoulda.  The chief problem here is that this, as you posted, weaponizes political prosecutions.  That's stuff that's done in Latin America.  Even though it may very well be warranted (I don't know based on what we know right now), it's hugely politically destabilizing.

If any of the MAGA wing Rs win (DeSantis as opposed to Pence) in 2024.  They will purge the FBI.  They will weaponize in turn.  And BTW Trump now (short of being arrested) is almost guaranteed now to run.  The MAGA wing will barring some major evidence we don't know yet circle around him (DeSantis may decline to run and wait).  He most likely (if they took this step) will be arrested which means we will have an indicted nominee of the Rs running for President.  Some blue states will, as a result, move to block him from the ballot because of it.  And we have the beginnings of a major political and constitutional crisis underway.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> He may very well be deserved to be arrested.  We haven't seen the evidence (the warrant, for the sake of transparency, needs to be released immediately)...though the FBI's prior conduct with the impeachments puts me on guard...particularly if it has to do with the Jan 6 incitement issue given everything we've learned from the D hearings.  My point is there were certainly grounds to rake Clinton over the coals but he got a slap on the wrist.  There was Bush and the lying about the justifications for the Iraq war.  There was Hillary and the emails.  There is Hunter Biden.  There's a difference between coulda and shoulda.  The chief problem here is that this, as you posted, weaponizes political prosecutions.  That's stuff that's done in Latin America.  Even though it may very well be warranted (I don't know based on what we know right now), it's hugely politically destabilizing.
> 
> If any of the MAGA wing Rs win (DeSantis as opposed to Pence) in 2024.  They will purge the FBI.  They will weaponize in turn.  And BTW Trump now (short of being arrested) is almost guaranteed now to run.  The MAGA wing will barring some major evidence we don't know yet circle around him (DeSantis may decline to run and wait).  He most likely (if they took this step) will be arrested which means we will have an indicted nominee of the Rs running for President.  Some blue states will, as a result, move to block him from the ballot because of it.  And we have the beginnings of a major political and constitutional crisis underway.


Noem has come out.  So has Abbott.   De Santis not yet (which is funny) but no doubt he will see what's ahead of him (since it's his state, Florida may have been informed).

They better be rock solid about what they are looking for because otherwise in the face of inaction on Hunter Biden this is an outright declaration of war on the Maga wing of the R party.  Rumors are it's documents Trump may have illegally removed (which would be flimsy but the penalty includes a bar from office).


----------



## crush

Goodbye Grace T, Watty, K&S and the rest of you. I wish you no harm and only peace. I go away in peace and look to start a new life.


----------



## NorCalDad

Grace T. said:


> Noem has come out.  So has Abbott.   De Santis not yet (which is funny) but no doubt he will see what's ahead of him (since it's his state, Florida may have been informed).
> 
> They better be rock solid about what they are looking for because otherwise in the face of inaction on Hunter Biden this is an outright declaration of war on the Maga wing of the R party.  Rumors are it's documents Trump may have illegally removed (which would be flimsy but the penalty includes a bar from office).


Wasn't the head of the FBI appointed by Trump?  I mean was Biden even involved in any of this?  Something doesn't smell right. Either they have a slam dunk reason to do this, or it's a setup against the dems.


----------



## Grace T.

NorCalDad said:


> Wasn't the head of the FBI appointed by Trump?  I mean was Biden even involved in any of this?  Something doesn't smell right. Either they have a slam dunk reason to do this, or it's a setup against the dems.


Trump doesn’t exactly make life long friends with former appointees but it doesn’t have to be the fbi…ultimate approval comes from garland (who’ll you’ll recall may still be smarting from being denied the Supreme Court and who cooperated with the teachers unions against the school board protestors).  Unless it’s a set up by garland that’s unlikely.

it may very well be a slam dunk.  I hope for the country’s sake it is. Because if it is anything short of that certain events are now locked:

-trump barring illness or death or conviction or some grand deal with desantis is going to be the Republican nominee
-the doj will indict and arrest trump for something to justify this
-the republicans the next time they win the presidency will gut the three letter agencies and it will be a litmus test for anyone running. The ds will react in unknown ways at the current time.
-barring a major incident at this point the house is locked for the rs. The only question is the margin.
-biden if he doesn’t resign will be impeached. There will be a criminal referral out of the house for hunter.
-impeachment and criminal investigation will be used as political weapons in the future

they didn’t go after Clinton for perjury. They didn’t go after bush for the Iraq shenanigans. They didn’t go after Hillary for the emails and classified information. They haven’t gone after hunter.  They haven’t raided the Epstein pedos or published the list. They better have the goods this time for everyone sake And it better not be something like mishandling classified info or the national archives.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The Rubicon has just been crossed politically.  Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI.  If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI.  Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin.  As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail.
> 
> Assuming Biden lives long enough, if the Rs win 2024 they are totally turning the Hunter situation against him.  If true, they will turn the covering of Joe Biden's mental state and possible dementia against those around him.
> 
> The Latin Americanization of US politics is here.


Why is this in the vaccine thread?


----------



## espola

NorCalDad said:


> Wasn't the head of the FBI appointed by Trump?  I mean was Biden even involved in any of this?  Something doesn't smell right. Either they have a slam dunk reason to do this, or it's a setup against the dems.


They have a search warrant issued by a Federal Judge.  That means the FBI/DOJ swore an affidavit that there was probable cause of finding evidence of a crime.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Trump doesn’t exactly make life long friends with former appointees but it doesn’t have to be the fbi…ultimate approval comes from garland (who’ll you’ll recall may still be smarting from being denied the Supreme Court and who cooperated with the teachers unions against the school board protestors).  Unless it’s a set up by garland that’s unlikely.
> 
> it may very well be a slam dunk.  I hope for the country’s sake it is. Because if it is anything short of that certain events are now locked:
> 
> -trump barring illness or death or conviction or some grand deal with desantis is going to be the Republican nominee
> -the doj will indict and arrest trump for something to justify this
> -the republicans the next time they win the presidency will gut the three letter agencies and it will be a litmus test for anyone running. The ds will react in unknown ways at the current time.
> -barring a major incident at this point the house is locked for the rs. The only question is the margin.
> -biden if he doesn’t resign will be impeached. There will be a criminal referral out of the house for hunter.
> -impeachment and criminal investigation will be used as political weapons in the future
> 
> they didn’t go after Clinton for perjury. They didn’t go after bush for the Iraq shenanigans. They didn’t go after Hillary for the emails and classified information. They haven’t gone after hunter.  They haven’t raided the Epstein pedos or published the list. They better have the goods this time for everyone sake And it better not be something like mishandling classified info or the national archives.


Mishandling classified info is a serious federal crime.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Mishandling classified info is a serious federal crime.


One which is rarely ever raided let alone prosecuted or the list of high profile people in jail would be long. That one won’t stick. It would have to be something like bullet proof proof that he sent secrets to Russia. 


espola said:


> They have a search warrant issued by a Federal Judge.  That means the FBI/DOJ swore an affidavit that there was probable cause of finding evidence of a crime.


You know as well as I do the judge doesn’t look at the veracity of the claims made only a pleading. It’s a rubber stamp. The more compelling sign is that it would have to be approved by Garland himself given that this action against a former president is unprecedented. He better have the goods this time.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Why is this in the vaccine thread?


Meh it’s the conclusion of the same story that started with the pandemic and derailed an easy trump victory. It all flows from that. But for one there isn’t the other.  Plus this thread has covered everything from religion to dining to climate change.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> One which is rarely ever raided let alone prosecuted or the list of high profile people in jail would be long. That one won’t stick. It would have to be something like bullet proof proof that he sent secrets to Russia.
> 
> You know as well as I do the judge doesn’t look at the veracity of the claims made only a pleading. It’s a rubber stamp. The more compelling sign is that it would have to be approved by Garland himself given that this action against a former president is unprecedented. He better have the goods this time.


Don't worry.  You will find ways to deny it, just like you are starting with here.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Meh it’s the conclusion of the same story that started with the pandemic and derailed an easy trump victory. It all flows from that. But for one there isn’t the other.  Plus this thread has covered everything from religion to dining to climate change.


You could always start an appropriate off-topic thread about the search warrant.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> You could always start an appropriate off-topic thread about the search warrant.


You could always ignore my post (like you did crushes) and it dies


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You could always ignore my post (like you did crushes) and it dies


Trying to find excuses for your laziness?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Trying to find excuses for your laziness?


You love me. We all know it. Hugs and kisses.  You can’t give me up. I’m like candy.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> You love me. We all know it. Hugs and kisses.  You can’t give me up. I’m like candy.


Don't flatter yourself. Your ego makes you an easy target.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Don't flatter yourself. Your ego makes you an easy target.


Love you too!  .


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> They have a search warrant issued by a Federal Judge.  That means the FBI/DOJ swore an affidavit that there was probable cause of finding evidence of a crime.


Oh man

Did the the FBI pinky swear as well?

Did this reach the highest levels of the FBI and DOJ?

never heard this before


----------



## watfly

Why the Chair of the Lancet’s COVID-19 Commission Thinks The US Government Is Preventing a Real Investigation Into the Pandemic  ❧ Current Affairs
					

<p>Prof. Jeffrey Sachs says he is “pretty convinced [COVID-19] came out of US lab biotechnology” and warns that there is dangerous virus research taking place without public oversight. </p>




					www.currentaffairs.org


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> Oh man
> 
> Did the the FBI pinky swear as well?
> 
> Did this reach the highest levels of the FBI and DOJ?
> 
> never heard this before


Oh, look - another trumpy surfaces.  I guess stressful times bring out people's true characters.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> Oh, look - another trumpy surfaces.  I guess stressful times bring out people's true characters.


hey man , we can’t all be saving democracy like you


----------



## espola

Brav520 said:


> hey man , we can’t all be saving democracy like you


So you admit you won't make an effort to save democracy.


----------



## Brav520

espola said:


> So you admit you won't make an effort to save democracy.


I vote !

Now if saving democracy means hyperventilating over everything Trump has done the last 6 years , well I guess I just fall short on that requirement 

Even though I know the FBI/DoJ just has had an impeccable record( especially regarding Trump) and should be trusted no questions asked . I’d like to see the goods on raiding a former President”s  residence over classified materials , that as president he could have declassified


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Why the Chair of the Lancet’s COVID-19 Commission Thinks The US Government Is Preventing a Real Investigation Into the Pandemic  ❧ Current Affairs
> 
> 
> <p>Prof. Jeffrey Sachs says he is “pretty convinced [COVID-19] came out of US lab biotechnology” and warns that there is dangerous virus research taking place without public oversight. </p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.currentaffairs.org


Sachs lays out his argument more completely here.

ttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119

He is absolutely correct IMO in calling for openness in the funding history between American and Chinese coronavirus researchers.  Completely reasonable.  Although, if you've ever read through one of these funding applications, short of them saying "lets change the genome backbone we've been working with for 10 years to this new thing" I doubt it would produce anything definitive.  

The problem with Sachs IMO is that, although he nuances it in academic speak, he basically accuses this guy, Daszak, along with his Chinese collaborators of engineering Cov2.  It's really quite specific. Sachs initially appointed Daszak as head of his much heralded Lancet origins committee.  Tensions within the committee have been well described. Some of Sachs' points-like the "what about the three deleted genome sequences" have turned out to be mostly duds (when you delete something from the internet it's never really gone).  And the read he places on the FOIA material liberated by the Intercept-once you actually read it-doesn't really mesh well with what he takes it to mean.  Sachs always comes back to is the furrin cleavage site as evidence of engineering, specifically Daszak/EcoAlliance engineering.  Yet it is now clear that these cleavage sites (which potentiate activation of the spike protein for infection) are widespread in naturally occurring Cviruses.  In the PNAS article I linked at the top in the sequence line up for his Figure 1 he only adds the SARS Cov2 FCS to make it appear that the FCS is completely unique.  That's disingenuous and Sachs knows it, or should know it. So he loses some credibility for me. 

Manmade construction of this virus is definitely possible.  History is important so might as well keep looking for that evidence, since at this point nothing else will be dispositive.  It will have to be a genome signature, document, or some IC evidence. Links are below.  "h" cut off to kill annoying hyperlinks since most won't care but it's something i've been looking at for some time.

ttps://www.science.org/content/article/fights-over-confidentiality-pledge-and-conflicts-interest-tore-apart-covid-19-origin-probe
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daszak
ttps://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
ttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deleted-coronavirus-genome-sequences-trigger-scientific-intrigue/
ttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> You could always ignore my post (like you did crushes) and it dies


Putting yourself on equal terms with crush isn’t a good look for you. But it might help martyr your cause with the trump brigade.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> Why the Chair of the Lancet’s COVID-19 Commission Thinks The US Government Is Preventing a Real Investigation Into the Pandemic  ❧ Current Affairs
> 
> 
> <p>Prof. Jeffrey Sachs says he is “pretty convinced [COVID-19] came out of US lab biotechnology” and warns that there is dangerous virus research taking place without public oversight. </p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.currentaffairs.org


Brutal.

The most interesting things that I got as chair of the Lancet commission came from Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits and whistleblower leaks from inside the U.S. government. Isn’t that terrible? NIH was actually asked at one point: give us your research program on SARS-like viruses. And you know what they did? They released the cover page and redacted 290 pages. They gave us a cover page and 290 blank pages! That’s NIH, for heaven’s sake. That’s not some corporation. That is the U.S. government charged with keeping us healthy.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Sachs lays out his argument more completely here.
> 
> ttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119
> 
> He is absolutely correct IMO in calling for openness in the funding history between American and Chinese coronavirus researchers.  Completely reasonable.  Although, if you've ever read through one of these funding applications, short of them saying "lets change the genome backbone we've been working with for 10 years to this new thing" I doubt it would produce anything definitive.
> 
> The problem with Sachs IMO is that, although he nuances it in academic speak, he basically accuses this guy, Daszak, along with his Chinese collaborators of engineering Cov2.  It's really quite specific. Sachs initially appointed Daszak as head of his much heralded Lancet origins committee.  Tensions within the committee have been well described. Some of Sachs' points-like the "what about the three deleted genome sequences" have turned out to be mostly duds (when you delete something from the internet it's never really gone).  And the read he places on the FOIA material liberated by the Intercept-once you actually read it-doesn't really mesh well with what he takes it to mean.  Sachs always comes back to is the furrin cleavage site as evidence of engineering, specifically Daszak/EcoAlliance engineering.  Yet it is now clear that these cleavage sites (which potentiate activation of the spike protein for infection) are widespread in naturally occurring Cviruses.  In the PNAS article I linked at the top in the sequence line up for his Figure 1 he only adds the SARS Cov2 FCS to make it appear that the FCS is completely unique.  That's disingenuous and Sachs knows it, or should know it. So he loses some credibility for me.
> 
> Manmade construction of this virus is definitely possible.  History is important so might as well keep looking for that evidence, since at this point nothing else will be dispositive.  It will have to be a genome signature, document, or some IC evidence. Links are below.  "h" cut off to kill annoying hyperlinks since most won't care but it's something i've been looking at for some time.
> 
> ttps://www.science.org/content/article/fights-over-confidentiality-pledge-and-conflicts-interest-tore-apart-covid-19-origin-probe
> ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daszak
> ttps://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
> ttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deleted-coronavirus-genome-sequences-trigger-scientific-intrigue/
> ttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165


In the big picture of the path our country takes, the source of the virus is much, much less important than the public trust of all the scientists, reporters, agencies, and organizations involved in the process of determining what happened. One real conspiracy/coverup undermines trust immensely. One real event such as this spawns many more that are based on nothing and get their credibility simply due to the lack of trust in these experts and organizations.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Mishandling classified info is a serious federal crime.


Unless your last name is Clinton.


----------



## watfly

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Unless your last name is Clinton.


Or Comey


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars.  Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.


I take it you only own gas cars.

At our house, the electric car gets used more than the gas one.  It's easier to park, more fun to drive, and the heat comes on quicker.

The usual pattern is the electric goes first, and whoever wakes up late gets the gas one.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Sachs lays out his argument more completely here.
> 
> ttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119
> 
> He is absolutely correct IMO in calling for openness in the funding history between American and Chinese coronavirus researchers.  Completely reasonable.  Although, if you've ever read through one of these funding applications, short of them saying "lets change the genome backbone we've been working with for 10 years to this new thing" I doubt it would produce anything definitive.
> 
> The problem with Sachs IMO is that, although he nuances it in academic speak, he basically accuses this guy, Daszak, along with his Chinese collaborators of engineering Cov2.  It's really quite specific. Sachs initially appointed Daszak as head of his much heralded Lancet origins committee.  Tensions within the committee have been well described. Some of Sachs' points-like the "what about the three deleted genome sequences" have turned out to be mostly duds (when you delete something from the internet it's never really gone).  And the read he places on the FOIA material liberated by the Intercept-once you actually read it-doesn't really mesh well with what he takes it to mean.  Sachs always comes back to is the furrin cleavage site as evidence of engineering, specifically Daszak/EcoAlliance engineering.  Yet it is now clear that these cleavage sites (which potentiate activation of the spike protein for infection) are widespread in naturally occurring Cviruses.  In the PNAS article I linked at the top in the sequence line up for his Figure 1 he only adds the SARS Cov2 FCS to make it appear that the FCS is completely unique.  That's disingenuous and Sachs knows it, or should know it. So he loses some credibility for me.
> 
> Manmade construction of this virus is definitely possible.  History is important so might as well keep looking for that evidence, since at this point nothing else will be dispositive.  It will have to be a genome signature, document, or some IC evidence. Links are below.  "h" cut off to kill annoying hyperlinks since most won't care but it's something i've been looking at for some time.
> 
> ttps://www.science.org/content/article/fights-over-confidentiality-pledge-and-conflicts-interest-tore-apart-covid-19-origin-probe
> ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daszak
> ttps://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
> ttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deleted-coronavirus-genome-sequences-trigger-scientific-intrigue/
> ttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165


It doesn't speak very highly of the scientific community if opinion can be shaped by the personal differences between scientists.  It's very troubling in fact.  Will Sachs be disciplined or censured for publicly stating certain falsehoods, or disingenuous opinion? It seems particularly critical in Sach's
case since he holds such a prominent position in the scientific community.  Is there a Code of Ethics for scientists with ramifications for violating it?  I'm a CPA (although I don't practice publicly anymore) and there are serious ramifications for violating the Code of Ethics which are enforced by the State association.  Sometimes its just a public censure in the State Association newsletter, but it call also be a temporary or permanent suspension of your license.  You're also required every 4 years to take an ethics course.  Is there a continuing education requirement for scientists to take ethics training?  The reason for this is 100% to instill public trust in the profession.

Like you said it goes to credibility and that's been a serious problem during the pandemic.  This has lead to a mistrust by the general public of scientific opinion and studies.   To me its a lot more dangerous for scientists to promote misinformation than it is for joe blow to do it on social media.  Ironically its only Joe Blow who seems to get censured.  Scientists have to be more careful with their opinions since they are imbued with an inherent credibility because were not supposed to question "science".

Regardless of Sach's credibility, there are enough red flags to warrant a thorough and unbiased investigation into the lab.  Unfortunately, I don't think it "could" happen because China won't allow it and have already destroyed any evidence, I also don't think it "would" happen because the scientific community wouldn't want egg on its face.

I also think a investigation is warranted because of the lack of evidence for zoonotic origin for Covid.  We  have yet to identify a source animal or an intermediary animal for human spread.  This is very unlike SARS where we identified dozens of Civets with the virus.  So until we do the lab leak is a viable, arguably more viable, theory than zoonotic source of the virus.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars.  Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.


They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving.  If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.

The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I take it you only own gas cars.
> 
> At our house, the electric car gets used more than the gas one.  It's easier to park, more fun to drive, and the heat comes on quicker.
> 
> The usual pattern is the electric goes first, and whoever wakes up late gets the gas one.


I don't, I think the technology is great although I don't know if at the end of the day it really leaves a smaller carbon footprint.  I'd like to get an electric car when the time comes for a new car.  The idea of not paying for gas is a strong incentive.

However, while buying an EV is a reality for me, its not for most American's at this time.  It's not just cost but charging, you really need to be a homeowner to charge it in most cases.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving.  If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.
> 
> The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.


Why are we discussing electric cars in a vaccine forum?  

Well, since this is a soccer board, anyone who goes to a tournament in Temecula and sees the line at the electric charge stations just off the freeway at the gas stations on Sunday when the tournament ends, and the weekend hotels are emptying, can see the issue.  You sometimes can't even get into a charging port and have to wait 5-6 cars deep to get a slot.  I've also seen arguments from tired commuters there complaining over where the line starts and who cut it.  No thanks.  Fix that issue first.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> Why are we discussing electric cars in a vaccine forum?
> 
> Well, since this is a soccer board, anyone who goes to a tournament in Temecula and sees the line at the electric charge stations just off the freeway at the gas stations on Sunday when the tournament ends, and the weekend hotels are emptying, can see the issue.  You sometimes can't even get into a charging port and have to wait 5-6 cars deep to get a slot.  I've also seen arguments from tired commuters there complaining over where the line starts and who cut it.  No thanks.  Fix that issue first.


I brought it up as an analogy, so my bad.   

We went with a teammate in their Tesla to a regular season MLS Next game in LA (completely sketchy part of town).  I was surprised how slammed the charging stations were.  At one we had to wait 20 minutes to charge plus charging time added a lot of time to our travel.


----------



## Grace T.

A great article on the failure of experts.  Most things fail.  The only difference is that now the internet has exposed the failures for everyone to see at the click of a mouse, but the politicians (backed by the expert priestly caste) continue to overpromise.  The experts though still with all their hubris thought they could control COVID and then inflation, leading to a crisis in confidence for our institutions.









						Will we escape our age of failure?
					

Inflation has crushed our incompetent elites




					unherd.com


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> I don't, I think the technology is great although I don't know if at the end of the day it really leaves a smaller carbon footprint.  I'd like to get an electric car when the time comes for a new car.  The idea of not paying for gas is a strong incentive.
> 
> However, while buying an EV is a reality for me, its not for most American's at this time.  It's not just cost but charging, you really need to be a homeowner to charge it in most cases.











						How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?
					

On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.




					evtool.ucsusa.org


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?
> 
> 
> On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> evtool.ucsusa.org


A couple of additional problems:

1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought.  There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem.  To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?
> 
> 
> On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> evtool.ucsusa.org


We can play this game all day long if you'd like.  I'm undecided on the environmental benefits.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> A couple of additional problems:
> 
> 1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
> 2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought.  There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem.  To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.


We can't have a serious conversation about electric cars until we include nuclear in the conversation.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> A couple of additional problems:
> 
> 1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
> 2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought.  There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem.  To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.


So you are listening to the experts now?


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> So you are listening to the experts now?


I always listen to the experts and weigh with my own reason the arguments they make from both sides.

People like you and dad4 listen to the experts that confirm your priors and then discount the views of those that disagree with you as snake oil salesmen and not true "experts".  It helps too if the "experts" that you like are in the establishment and not outsiders.

I will concede my bias is for the plucky outsiders and don't passers.  It's just serendipity that it serves me well in the current era.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> I always listen to the experts and weigh with my own reason the arguments they make from both sides.
> 
> People like you and dad4 listen to the experts that confirm your priors and then discount the views of those that disagree with you as snake oil salesmen and not true "experts".  It helps too if the "experts" that you like are in the establishment and not outsiders.
> 
> I will concede my bias is for the plucky outsiders and don't passers.  It's just serendipity that it serves me well in the current era.


I don't think you read very much of what I post.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> I don't think you read very much of what I post.


I read every word.  You are my favorite after all.  You always bring a smile to my face.

I just sometimes have difficultly distinguishing on your part the deliberate intentional comedy from the pure happenstance.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I read every word.  You are my favorite after all.  You always bring a smile to my face.
> 
> I just sometimes have difficultly distinguishing on your part the deliberate intentional comedy from the pure happenstance.


You certainly get under his skin.  It's oddly fascinating to see.  I do wonder sometimes why you even bother responding since his posts speak for themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound

Grace T. said:


> A couple of additional problems:
> 
> 1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
> 2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought.  There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem.  To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.


Electric vehicles have what is known as a long tailpipe.

Most are unaware that they are far from zero emission vehicles.

Vid does a good job explaining that.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving.  If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.
> 
> The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.


How about the ability to afford one in these inflationary times?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How about the ability to afford one in these inflationary times?


Inflation cuts both ways.  Gas prices and oil changes are up, too.

Assuming a $25,000 electric versus a $15,000 gas car.  The extra car payment is about $190 per month.   Fuel cost difference is about $170 per 1000 miles, plus another $20 for oil changes.

So, if you drive about 1000 miles per month, your monthly bill is about the same.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Inflation cuts both ways.  Gas prices and oil changes are up, too.
> 
> Assuming a $25,000 electric versus a $15,000 gas car.  The extra car payment is about $190 per month.   Fuel cost difference is about $170 per 1000 miles, plus another $20 for oil changes.
> 
> So, if you drive about 1000 miles per month, your monthly bill is about the same.


Yes…now if you can’t afford a $25k car right now and gas prices are killing your budget what do you do….THAT IS MY POINT


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Yes…now if you can’t afford a $25k car right now and gas prices are killing your budget what do you do….THAT IS MY POINT


Not for everyone but my Allant+ 8 handles most of my commuting and many around town errands nicely.  I think the last tank of gas we bought was probably late June.  About 3K new.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Not for everyone but my Allant+ 8 handles most of my commuting and many around town errands nicely.  I think the last tank of gas we bought was probably late June.  About 3K new.


As you drive electric in style, make sure to thank the kids in your heart for their labor. Costco just announced they will not sell diesel.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> They have a search warrant issued by a Federal Judge.  That means the FBI/DOJ swore an affidavit that there was probable cause of finding evidence of a crime.


Fool proof no? never an example of a bad warrant ever issued?  Maybe it's legit in this case..don't really care....our government always does things by the book, the Ts dotted and the Is teed.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Electric vehicles have what is known as a long tailpipe.
> 
> Most are unaware that they are far from zero emission vehicles.
> 
> Vid does a good job explaining that.


Why do you keep assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be stupid and/or uninformed?

I think everyone here is aware that electricity generation and lithium mining generate emissions.

The question is whether total emissions from an electric car are lower than total emissions from a gasoline car.  Both are substantial.

The last time I ran the numbers, electrics came out ahead, even if I assumed 100% coal power plants.


----------



## crush

Nancy Pelosi: “China is One of the Freest Societies in the World", "Strong Democracy"
					






					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Why do you keep assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be stupid and/or uninformed?
> 
> I think everyone here is aware that electricity generation and lithium mining generate emissions.
> 
> The question is whether total emissions from an electric car are lower than total emissions from a gasoline car.  Both are substantial.
> 
> The last time I ran the numbers, electrics came out ahead, even if I assumed 100% coal power plants.


Not sure who you think I was disagreeing with.

That said most people just go with the ads, pronouncements that these vehicles are zero emission. 

They don't know where the power comes from.

Your math for your model failed to take into consideration the emissions required to produce the various parts. If you watched that video and or read other analysis about total actual emissions you will find that currently they are not clean as advertised.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

crush said:


> drive


No.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure who you think I was disagreeing with.
> 
> That said most people just go with the ads, pronouncements that these vehicles are zero emission.
> 
> They don't know where the power comes from.
> 
> Your math for your model failed to take into consideration the emissions required to produce the various parts. If you watched that video and or read other analysis about total actual emissions you will find that currently they are not clean as advertised.


The argument that is made in the Ted Talk I posted is that the "carbon" to build the electric car is significantly higher than a gas vehicle and electric cars won't last long enough to offset that difference (if I'm recalling correctly).  Whether you believe it or not its a fascinating watch.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> The argument that is made in the Ted Talk I posted is that the "carbon" to build the electric car is significantly higher than a gas vehicle and electric cars won't last long enough to offset that difference (if I'm recalling correctly).  Whether you believe it or not its a fascinating watch.


Many people who own electric cars could care less about the environment, they own them for the pure fun of it.  Mabye not so much a nissan leaf for the fun factor. Selfishly, not having to stop for gas, changing brakes, fluid changes is convenient.    As someone here pointed out earlier, they are not for everyone, especially if you don't reside in a home that can provide you daily/nightly charging.  They mostly aren't affordable.  But they are fun to drive and ranges have gotten better.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> The argument that is made in the Ted Talk I posted is that the "carbon" to build the electric car is significantly higher than a gas vehicle and electric cars won't last long enough to offset that difference (if I'm recalling correctly).  Whether you believe it or not its a fascinating watch.


This TED talk?


----------



## crush




----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> Many people who own electric cars could care less about the environment, they own them for the pure fun of it.  Mabye not so much a nissan leaf for the fun factor. Selfishly, not having to stop for gas, changing brakes, fluid changes is convenient.    As someone here pointed out earlier, they are not for everyone, especially if you don't reside in a home that can provide you daily/nightly charging.  They mostly aren't affordable.  But they are fun to drive and ranges have gotten better.


I would go so far as to say that most people don't buy them for environmental reasons.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> This TED talk?


Yep.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Yep.


"NOTE FROM TED: This talk only reflects the speaker's personal views and interpretation. Several claims in this talk lack scientific support. We've flagged this talk because it falls outside the content guidelines TED gives TEDx organizers."


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> I would go so far as to say that most people don't buy them for environmental reasons.


Tesla cars are beautiful electric cars and I can say most of my liberal pals who own them feel good about themselves by going electric. They went all in woke so they don't go broke and they kiss so much you know it, it's disgusting and all over their nose. They also got all the jabs ((this is the Vaccine Thread so we should stay on topic, moo!)) + all the boosters and most still wear mask when they drive. I told one of my bff's that the kids that are forced into mining to make these cars is crazy insane and he plugs his ears and goes all, "la la la la, na na na na la la la la" super loud when I bring up the kids and how their being treated like little paid slaves and paid pennies an hour. Horrible and I would never buy one, like never!!! Edison wanted to "charge" us all and Nick Tesla wanted energy to be free for all of us.  I can't wait until we go all in with the real stuff. Psychopath's love to control people and use people and then cheat on them, steal from them and then lie through projecting their cheating back to the one's they cheated on.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Stat News: Real math does not lie. 67% of the Covid deaths in San Diego the last 3 months are from those who have been fully jabbed or fully jabbed with all their booster jabs. The 33% who died had one jab or no jab. *


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure who you think I was disagreeing with.
> 
> That said most people just go with the ads, pronouncements that these vehicles are zero emission.
> 
> They don't know where the power comes from.
> 
> Your math for your model failed to take into consideration the emissions required to produce the various parts. If you watched that video and or read other analysis about total actual emissions you will find that currently they are not clean as advertised.


 Nope.  I included it.  A 25k car has considerably more production emissions than a 15k car.  Roughly 5/3 as much.

The coal burner with a long tailpipe still emits less CO2.  Eventually, the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon just dominates.

To get the opposite result, you have to use an unreasonably short estimate for the lifespan of the car.

Back when I ran the numbers, WSJ published a comparison that assumed 50,000 miles.  ICE car lifespan and ev battery life are both around 200,000 miles.  So the WSJ piece was underestimating operating emissions by a factor of four.

I assume your video is playing that kind of game.  And it's not worth 20 minutes of my time to find out exactly how they play it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> The argument that is made in the Ted Talk I posted is that the "carbon" to build the electric car is significantly higher than a gas vehicle and electric cars won't last long enough to offset that difference (if I'm recalling correctly).  Whether you believe it or not its a fascinating watch.


Sounds like they used the same cheat as the old WSJ piece: assume the electric dies before the break even point.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Sounds like they used the same cheat as the old WSJ piece: assume the electric dies before the break even point.


Your criticizing something you refuse to watch...weak.  He actually makes a case for hybrids being the most environmental friendly.  His overall conclusion is that at this point is that we need a mix of gas, electric and hybrid cars.  That's why he is wearing a shirt that says "The future is eclectic".


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Your criticizing something you refuse to watch...weak.  He actually makes a case for hybrids being the most environmental friendly.  His overall conclusion is that at this point is that we need a mix of gas, electric and hybrid cars.  That's why he is wearing a shirt that says "The future is eclectic".


I like hybrids for a distance car.  You get to use electricity for the grocery store runs, but still have long range for the ski trip.

But, if you don't have a place to charge them, I don't see how you make up for the added production cost.  There is no need for a 15kwh battery if you never use it for more than regenerative braking.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I like hybrids for a distance car.  You get to use electricity for the grocery store runs, but still have long range for the ski trip.
> 
> But, if you don't have a place to charge them, I don't see how you make up for the added production cost.  There is no need for a 15kwh battery if you never use it for more than regenerative braking.


Unless I'm missing your point, you don't charge hybrids.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Unless I'm missing your point, you don't charge hybrids.











						Top Rated Plug-in Hybrids | GreenCars
					

With both a gasoline-powered engine and electric motors, today’s plug-in hybrids offer fuel efficiency, comfort, and the latest tech. Here are some of the best on the market today.




					greencars.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Unless I'm missing your point, you don't charge hybrids.


Plug in hybrids are a thing now.  They have both a gas tank and a charge port.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Plug in hybrids are a thing now.  They have both a gas tank and a charge port.


If you believe the guy from the Ted Talk that would defeat the advantage of a hybrid car.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Plug in hybrids are a thing now.  They have both a gas tank and a charge port.


They have been an option since soon after hybrids came on the market.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> If you believe the guy from the Ted Talk that would defeat the advantage of a hybrid car.


"The guy from the TED talk" admitted early in his presentation that he was just trolling for attention.

I assume that is why TED put the disclaimer on the youtube version.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Nope.  I included it.  A 25k car has considerably more production emissions than a 15k car.  Roughly 5/3 as much.
> 
> The coal burner with a long tailpipe still emits less CO2.  Eventually, the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon just dominates.
> 
> To get the opposite result, you have to use an unreasonably short estimate for the lifespan of the car.
> 
> Back when I ran the numbers, WSJ published a comparison that assumed 50,000 miles.  ICE car lifespan and ev battery life are both around 200,000 miles.  So the WSJ piece was underestimating operating emissions by a factor of four.
> 
> I assume your video is playing that kind of game.  And it's not worth 20 minutes of my time to find out exactly how they play it.


There is only one coal-burning power plant left in California.  It's out in the desert at Trona where coal is burned in a chemical process to refine the salts from Trona Lake and the excess heat is used to cogenerate electricity for the plant and surrounding area.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> If you believe the guy from the Ted Talk that would defeat the advantage of a hybrid car.


You need a better source than a video which has been disowned by its own publisher.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You need a better source than a video which has been disowned by its own publisher.


I see we are back to trust the experts who are credentialed and agree with me on a particular topics and everyone else is garbage rather than critique particular statements made in the talk.  Why, then, am I not surprised?

Part of the issue is what you buy.  Leasing a new Telsa with all the bells and whistles every 2 years is less environmentally friendly than running the old volvo beater that's fully paid off into the ground.










						When Does the Clean-Energy Infinity Loop Start?
					

Digging up minerals for rechargeable batteries has a high initial cost, but eventually those minerals can be recycled indefinitely.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You need a better source than a video which has been disowned by its own publisher.


What part of "if you believe this guy" don't you and Espola understand?  It's one of thousands opinions regarding green energy.  If Tedx was that concerned about it they would have removed it from their Youtube channel.  They simply labeled it viewer beware because it challenges popular opinion, which makes the scientific community uncomfortable when someone deviates from the defined narrative.

It's lazy reasoning how you and Espola have a tendency to challenge the source but not the substance.


----------



## crush

Dr. Mary Bowden (@mdbreathe) is a licensed Texas physician who kept nearly 4,000 patients out of the hospital with a successful COVID treatment rate of 99.97%.

She is currently suing the FDA for blocking her ability to treat her patients and for politicizing the practice of medicine.

A few days ago, Twitter banned her account with 120K followers because she is standing up to the FDA and fighting for medical freedom.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> What part of "if you believe this guy" don't you and Espola understand?  It's one of thousands opinions regarding green energy.  If Tedx was that concerned about it they would have removed it from their Youtube channel.  They simply labeled it viewer beware because it challenges popular opinion, which makes the scientific community uncomfortable when someone deviates from the defined narrative.
> 
> It's lazy reasoning how you and Espola have a tendency to challenge the source but not the substance.


You see that as an exclusive on dad and E’s part? You must have the trump brigade on ignore.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> You see that as an exclusive on dad and E’s part? You must have the trump brigade on ignore.


Well the Trump brigade never seems to address either the source or the substance directly.  They tend to be on a completely different flight path.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> What part of "if you believe this guy" don't you and Espola understand?  It's one of thousands opinions regarding green energy.  If Tedx was that concerned about it they would have removed it from their Youtube channel.  They simply labeled it viewer beware because it challenges popular opinion, which makes the scientific community uncomfortable when someone deviates from the defined narrative.
> 
> It's lazy reasoning how you and Espola have a tendency to challenge the source but not the substance.


If you have a real argument, find someone who thought it was worth writing down.

"Watch my rambling and repetitive video" is not the same as communication.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> If you have a real argument, find someone who thought it was worth writing down.
> 
> "Watch my rambling and repetitive video" is not the same as communication.


I'm a visual learner!  I don't have the attention span to sit down and read a book.

Have you watched the video? How would you know its rambling and repetitive?  You act like the video is some great science denier diatribe.  His basic premise is that we have to look at the bigger picture when we're talking about a carbon footprint and that its incorrect to call electric cars "zero emissions".  Sorry it send you into tailspin that anyone would question the woke status quo.  More evidence that academics don't toleration deviation from the so-called consensus.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I'm a visual learner!  I don't have the attention span to sit down and read a book.
> 
> Have you watched the video? How would you know its rambling and repetitive?  You act like the video is some great science denier diatribe.  His basic premise is that we have to look at the bigger picture when we're talking about a carbon footprint and that its incorrect to call electric cars "zero emissions".  Sorry it send you into tailspin that anyone would question the woke status quo.  More evidence that academics don't toleration deviation from the so-called consensus.


Does it really take a Ted talk to explain the fact that industrial processes consume energy and produce CO2 emissions?

If that's the only take away, I think I'm justified in skipping it.


----------



## crush

*Fauci vents about Americans' opposition to forced masking: 'It's almost inexplicable'*
*Fauci complained: 'What world are we living in?'*


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Sounds like they used the same cheat as the old WSJ piece: assume the electric dies before the break even point.


Classic Car enthusiasts have done then same thing in reverse by reducing miles driven per year.









						Classic Cars Are Greener Than Electric Vehicles: Study
					

Well, how about that…




					www.motorious.com


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Classic Car enthusiasts have done then same thing in reverse by reducing miles driven per year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Classic Cars Are Greener Than Electric Vehicles: Study
> 
> 
> Well, how about that…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motorious.com


Sure.  And matchbox cars are even greener than classic cars.  Probably not more than a few pounds of CO2 over the entire life of the car.

Maybe we can restrict our discussion to cars that are actually used as cars?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> Sure.  And matchbox cars are even greener than classic cars.  Probably not more than a few pounds of CO2 over the entire life of the car.
> 
> Maybe we can restrict our discussion to cars that are actually used as cars?


Per usual you miss the point.

Electric batteries in cars last between 10-20 yrs.

Terribly expensive to replace for staters...and a lot of emission related to producing that 2nd battery.

I have a 2004 vehicle that will run many more yrs without major issues. 

As it stands now you will not see a lot of older electric vehicles on the road.

Other issues?

On a large scale they still are not practical. You cannot quickly charge the vehicle. Right now it is an inconvenience. On a mass scale a major issue.

We also do not have the grid anywhere close to handling millions of electric cars on the road.

And then you have the idiocy of trying to shut current reliable power plants with renewables that provide inconsistent power. The euros are coming face to face with reality now as Russia restrict gas. Now they are talking and realize the should not shutter gas and coal plants.. and maybe shuttind down nuclear power as Germany wanted to is a bad idea.

Car and driver just tested out the new electric Ford truck to see how far it could tow things. The results? Not even a hundred miles.

Remember that when politicians talk about electric big rig vehicles


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Sure.  And matchbox cars are even greener than classic cars.  Probably not more than a few pounds of CO2 over the entire life of the car.
> 
> Maybe we can restrict our discussion to cars that are actually used as cars?


Unless I missed the sarcasm in your reply… my intent was to laugh at the data set they used to arrive at their headline.


----------



## Desert Hound

And in New Zealand COVID is now tied for the leading cause of death in the country.









						Covid becomes equal leading cause of death in New Zealand for first time
					

Analysis shows almost 15% of deaths in mid-July were due to Covid, with that figure likely to be an undercount




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Does it really take a Ted talk to explain the fact that industrial processes consume energy and produce CO2 emissions?
> 
> If that's the only take away, I think I'm justified in skipping it.


So GraceT was right about this cult-like obedience to scientific dogma.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Per usual you miss the point.
> 
> Electric batteries in cars last between 10-20 yrs.
> 
> Terribly expensive to replace for staters...and a lot of emission related to producing that 2nd battery.
> 
> I have a 2004 vehicle that will run many more yrs without major issues.
> 
> As it stands now you will not see a lot of older electric vehicles on the road.
> 
> Other issues?
> 
> On a large scale they still are not practical. You cannot quickly charge the vehicle. Right now it is an inconvenience. On a mass scale a major issue.
> 
> We also do not have the grid anywhere close to handling millions of electric cars on the road.
> 
> And then you have the idiocy of trying to shut current reliable power plants with renewables that provide inconsistent power. The euros are coming face to face with reality now as Russia restrict gas. Now they are talking and realize the should not shutter gas and coal plants.. and maybe shuttind down nuclear power as Germany wanted to is a bad idea.
> 
> Car and driver just tested out the new electric Ford truck to see how far it could tow things. The results? Not even a hundred miles.
> 
> Remember that when politicians talk about electric big rig vehicles


You seem to be thinking of a car as something which you drive 400 miles per day, towing a boat.  If that is your average day, don’t get an electric.

For me, an average day is driving 50 miles to work, school, and soccer.  For that, an electric works fine.  I charge it at night.  It takes about 2 seconds to plug it in.  I can’t remember the last time I bothered with a public charging station, and it requires almost no maintenance.  Most convenient car I’ve ever owned.

I won’t argue against grid upgrades.  It is part of the cost of any switch to wind/solar.   You can get by with a smaller grid upgrade if you include more nuclear in the mix, but you still have to do it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> So GraceT was right about this cult-like obedience to scientific dogma.


What dogma?  Making a battery is an industrial process.  It consumes energy and causes CO2 emissions.  You don’t need a Ted talk to explain the concept.  If it came out of a factory, there was some CO2 released somewhere along the way.

Now, if you want to go further than that and say how much CO2, then you need data, links, and the rest of it.  For that, a Ted talk is not a very good  medium.  Video is slow, unidirectional, includes no links to sources, and allows the speaker to completely ignore any point he finds uncomfortable.  Useless for a real discussion.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Per usual you miss the point.
> 
> Electric batteries in cars last between 10-20 yrs.
> 
> Terribly expensive to replace for staters...and a lot of emission related to producing that 2nd battery.
> 
> I have a 2004 vehicle that will run many more yrs without major issues.
> 
> As it stands now you will not see a lot of older electric vehicles on the road.
> 
> Other issues?
> 
> On a large scale they still are not practical. You cannot quickly charge the vehicle. Right now it is an inconvenience. On a mass scale a major issue.
> 
> We also do not have the grid anywhere close to handling millions of electric cars on the road.
> 
> And then you have the idiocy of trying to shut current reliable power plants with renewables that provide inconsistent power. The euros are coming face to face with reality now as Russia restrict gas. Now they are talking and realize the should not shutter gas and coal plants.. and maybe shuttind down nuclear power as Germany wanted to is a bad idea.
> 
> Car and driver just tested out the new electric Ford truck to see how far it could tow things. The results? Not even a hundred miles.
> 
> Remember that when politicians talk about electric big rig vehicles


I some ways the most green vehicle that exists is the one you already own, whether that's electric or fuel.  The sunk carbon cost has already been incurred.  It's really new vehicles that have the greatest carbon cost.  Of course, the benefits of the old car are finite because it won't last forever.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> What dogma?  Making a battery is an industrial process.  It consumes energy and causes CO2 emissions.  You don’t need a Ted talk to explain the concept.  If it came out of a factory, there was some CO2 released somewhere along the way.
> 
> Now, if you want to go further than that and say how much CO2, then you need data, links, and the rest of it.  For that, a Ted talk is not a very good  medium.  Video is slow, unidirectional, includes no links to sources, and allows the speaker to completely ignore any point he finds uncomfortable.  Useless for a real discussion.


Those that are indoctrinated don't see the dogma.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> The Rubicon has just been crossed politically.  Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI.  If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI.  Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin.  As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail.
> 
> Assuming Biden lives long enough, if the Rs win 2024 they are totally turning the Hunter situation against him.  If true, they will turn the covering of Joe Biden's mental state and possible dementia against those around him.
> 
> The Latin Americanization of US politics is here.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I some ways the most green vehicle that exists is the one you already own, whether that's electric or fuel.  The sunk carbon cost has already been incurred.  It's really new vehicles that have the greatest carbon cost.  Of course, the benefits of the old car are finite because it won't last forever.


Ongoing cost is larger than you’d think.  A 20 mpg car will emit 1 pound of CO2 every mile.  (1 gallon gas = 20 pounds CO2).  So an extra 50,000 miles means an extra 25 tons of CO2.

That’s more than the lifetime emissions of a new electric car.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

In the click media (eg https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/08/11/cdc-coronavirus-recommendations/) you'll see some of the changes I suggested were coming to CDC guidance.  For those interested, below is a link to a rationale statement for those changes that is pretty interesting.  Notice, for example, how "community" and "individual" parse out in the document.  Basically, like I was saying CDC is at this point going "we'll monitor community, you guys do what you want".  It's remarkable to me how epidemiologists and immunologists have come to very different views of where we are with this virus right now. 









						Summary of Guidance for Minimizing the Impact of COVID-19...
					

This report describes guidance for minimizing the impact of COVID-19 on individuals, communities, and health care systems in the United States.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> In the click media (eg https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/08/11/cdc-coronavirus-recommendations/) you'll see some of the changes I suggested were coming to CDC guidance.  For those interested, below is a link to a rationale statement for those changes that is pretty interesting.  Notice, for example, how "community" and "individual" parse out in the document.  Basically, like I was saying CDC is at this point going "we'll monitor community, you guys do what you want".  It's remarkable to me how epidemiologists and immunologists have come to very different views of where we are with this virus right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Summary of Guidance for Minimizing the Impact of COVID-19...
> 
> 
> This report describes guidance for minimizing the impact of COVID-19 on individuals, communities, and health care systems in the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


That all sounds like positive and reasonable steps to me.   It does seem like the CDC is catching up with what the public has been doing for months.


----------



## crush

Good News Sharing: *The CDC will no longer recommend schools and other institutions screen healthy students for the coronavirus, and the quarantine rule for unvaccinated individuals has been removed. *


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> That all sounds like positive and reasonable steps to me.   It does seem like the CDC is catching up with what the public has been doing for months.


The term bureaucracy does not elicit quick moving nor agile.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Hüsker Dü said:


> The term bureaucracy does not elicit quick moving nor agile.


Sure, that's part of it.  In my recent travel across the country the only place that insisted on mask and vaccine status was in Navaho country.  And for good reason.  But for real fry bread and stew totally worth it. Part of it is also the new inputs from the poly sci and information warfare people they are looping into the modeling. From the epidemiological standpoint my read is they take the fairly high but steady case load to mean "this is what endemic with an R11 respiratory virus looks like".  So, assuming another VOC doesn't pop out (which it could, who knows) it makes some sense to let it ride at this point.  I would image there is also kind of a hope that, for the more guidance compliant urban/higher density areas, the omicron bivalent vaccines have a big effect on steady state case load.


----------



## crush

NPR say's were getting close to the days of the Flu and those who said no to all the jabs are equal to those who took 4+ jabs.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Sure, that's part of it.  In my recent travel across the country the only place that insisted on mask and vaccine status was in Navaho country.  And for good reason.  But for real fry bread and stew totally worth it. Part of it is also the new inputs from the poly sci and information warfare people they are looping into the modeling. From the epidemiological standpoint my read is they take the fairly high but steady case load to mean "this is what endemic with an R11 respiratory virus looks like".  So, assuming another VOC doesn't pop out (which it could, who knows) it makes some sense to let it ride at this point.  I would image there is also kind of a hope that, for the more guidance compliant urban/higher density areas, the omicron bivalent vaccines have a big effect on steady state case load.


Navajo, just saying.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The term bureaucracy does not elicit quick moving nor agile.


Sometimes glacial, but the CDC was quick to promote restrictions with very limited data (I get erring on the side of caution up to a point) and slow to recommend a lifting of restrictions despite overwhelming evidence.  Bureaucracy can move much quicker when there is a political will to do so.


----------



## Brav520

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557903688131297288


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557903688131297288


His disrespect for the chosen one sure left you people butt-hurt and spiteful.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> His disrespect for the chosen one sure left you people butt-hurt and spiteful.


this comment is quite telling


----------



## watfly

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557903688131297288


I thought this is how that clip was going to end.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

New Langya virus found in China could be 'tip of the iceberg' for undiscovered pathogens, researchers say | CNN
					

More surveillance is needed of a new virus detected in dozens of people in eastern China that may not cause the next pandemic but suggests just how easily viruses can travel unnoticed from animals to humans, scientists say.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557903688131297288


So humble


----------



## Grace T.

Small news item. Alex Berenson (mRNA skeptic) was kicked off Twitter. He sued Twitter and was reinstated. In discovery it came out one of the reasons he may have been kicked off for “misinformation” was pressure from the Biden White House.  Apparently Slavitt and others in a meeting with Twitter questioned why they were allowing him to spread misinformation and hadn’t kicked him off the platform. Berenson has posted the chats from Twitter employees discussing the White House meeting. The intervention of the White House may very well change the private actions of Twitter into state actions…state actions which violate first amendment rules on free speech. It is suspected that this may have been broader than just Berenson and extended into the Trump admin. Berenson announced this am he’s suing the federal government for civil rights violations.  This legal action may be the beginning of a broader first amendment scandal.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> New Langya virus found in China could be 'tip of the iceberg' for undiscovered pathogens, researchers say | CNN
> 
> 
> More surveillance is needed of a new virus detected in dozens of people in eastern China that may not cause the next pandemic but suggests just how easily viruses can travel unnoticed from animals to humans, scientists say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


slow news day for CNN?  Hard hitting medical/science journalism.


----------



## Grace T.

Happened again said:


> slow news day for CNN?  Hard hitting medical/science journalism.


Funny how quickly they found those schrews.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> slow news day for CNN?  Hard hitting medical/science journalism.


Scott Peterson was front page news over at Fox & her frens until the head of the DOJ gave presser. Then Nail Gun Guy showed up at FBI field office. I pray for peace so we all can get along. These guys play nasty games with other people's lives that don't matter to them. TGIFF and God Bless you all.


----------



## crush

Liberal Good News: The tide is changing. Hold the line and soon things will get better, I promise. My normal minded frens on the left who actually have a heart, have now told me to my face they were wrong and how I was right. Three in two days. They still hate t but would rather have t then Joe and Hunter and DO NOT feel that what they just did to t was right and they went too far. Let's see if we have Mid Terms.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> New Langya virus found in China could be 'tip of the iceberg' for undiscovered pathogens, researchers say | CNN
> 
> 
> More surveillance is needed of a new virus detected in dozens of people in eastern China that may not cause the next pandemic but suggests just how easily viruses can travel unnoticed from animals to humans, scientists say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Well at least they were able to identify the virus in specific animals, odd that that hasn't happened with Covid.  I'm sure that it will happen soon, its only been like 2 1/2 years.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Small news item. Alex Berenson (mRNA skeptic) was kicked off Twitter. He sued Twitter and was reinstated. In discovery it came out one of the reasons he may have been kicked off for “misinformation” was pressure from the Biden White House.  Apparently Slavitt and others in a meeting with Twitter questioned why they were allowing him to spread misinformation and hadn’t kicked him off the platform. Berenson has posted the chats from Twitter employees discussing the White House meeting. The intervention of the White House may very well change the private actions of Twitter into state actions…state actions which violate first amendment rules on free speech. It is suspected that this may have been broader than just Berenson and extended into the Trump admin. Berenson announced this am he’s suing the federal government for civil rights violations.  This legal action may be the beginning of a broader first amendment scandal.


Where did you get this news?


----------



## crush




----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Well at least they were able to identify the virus in specific animals, odd that that hasn't happened with Covid.  I'm sure that it will happen soon, its only been like 2 1/2 years.


It has been demonstrated to infect a range of mammals. There are new zoonotic resevoirs. One of the possible explanations for the omicron lineage is a back and forth. Pretty sure you already knew that though.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> It has been demonstrated to infect a range of mammals. There are new zoonotic resevoirs. One of the possible explanations for the omicron lineage is a back and forth. Pretty sure you already knew that though.


It has been predicted that a range of animals may have carried the virus as the initial intermediary, but not demonstrated or proven. There has neither been a source intermediary animal or species that has tested positive for Covid.  You're correct that since the subsequent human spread that humans have spread it to other animals and I assume vice versa.  There is a big difference between new zoonotic reservoirs and the original pre human infection zoonotic reservoir (if one actually existed).  Pretty sure you already knew that though.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Where did you get this news?


Check for yourself….not hard to find.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> There is a big difference between new zoonotic reservoirs and the original pre human infection zoonotic reservoir (if one actually existed).  Pretty sure you already knew that though.


Which you did not distinguish in what you wrote.  You're doing an origin story thing. Let's say the Chinese bat lady goes out and in some cave finds a Cvirus exactly like Wu-1 (more likely, a parental strain with perfect homology to parts of lineage A or lineage B). What do you think that would prove, if anything?


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Which you did not distinguish in what you wrote.  You're doing an origin story thing. Let's say the Chinese bat lady goes out and in some cave finds a Cvirus exactly like Wu-1 (more likely, a parental strain with perfect homology to parts of lineage A or lineage B). What do you think that would prove, if anything?


I'll be more clear next time with my sarcasm, it often doesn't translate very well.  As far as your question goes that's an incomplete hypothetical and could mean a lot of things, or nothing.

Just FYI the Mayo Clinic recommends the following if your pet gets infected.

_*Don't put a face mask on your pet. Don't wipe your pet with disinfectants. *_ 

I wish I had read that sooner, my dog was not happy.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Check for yourself….not hard to find.


I did check.  

I saw no mention of a ban on covid vaccines.

I did see articles about a change to recommendations with respect to Moderna.   Basically, use Pfizer for young people.  

But no talk of Denmark banning youth covid vaccines in general.

If you found such a link from a reputable source, post it.  If it happened, it would have been all over the mainstream European press.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Check for yourself….not hard to find.


I am frequently amused by posters who claim "easy to find" without leaving one of the "easy to find" links.

And even if I did find it on my own, it does not answer the more fundamental question of where Grace found it.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> I'll be more clear next time with my sarcasm, it often doesn't translate very well.  As far as your question goes that's an incomplete hypothetical and could mean a lot of things, or nothing.


Gottcha.  Harumphing.  Like the sewage sea foam wraiths.  But there's an important point in all of it about where we need to be monitoring.  Not so much for natural Cvirus genetic diversity anymore.  But for point sources of re-emergence.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

dad4 said:


> I did check.
> 
> I saw no mention of a ban on covid vaccines.
> 
> I did see articles about a change to recommendations with respect to Moderna.   Basically, use Pfizer for young people.
> 
> But no talk of Denmark banning youth covid vaccines in general.
> 
> If you found such a link from a reputable source, post it.  If it happened, it would have been all over the mainstream European press.


They are going to a seasonal approach based around the school year.  TLDR

"Far from scrapping its vaccination program altogether, however, the Danish Health and Medicines Authority said there will probably be a need to vaccinate against Covid-19 again in the fall."









						Denmark becomes the first country to halt its Covid vaccination program
					

"Spring has arrived, vaccine coverage in the Danish population is high, and the epidemic has reversed," the Danish Health Authority said.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## crush

"President Barack Hussein Obama kept *33 million* pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!" t

University of Texas Medical Branch Concedes It May Have Broken Law In Contract With Wuhan Lab.....Yikes!!!


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> I am frequently amused by posters who claim "easy to find" without leaving one of the "easy to find" links.
> 
> And even if I did find it on my own, it does not answer the more fundamental question of where Grace found it.


The laziest are typically amused when someone else doesn’t do their work for them…



dad4 said:


> I did check.
> 
> I saw no mention of a ban on covid vaccines.
> 
> I did see articles about a change to recommendations with respect to Moderna.   Basically, use Pfizer for young people.
> 
> But no talk of Denmark banning youth covid vaccines in general.
> 
> If you found such a link from a reputable source, post it.  If it happened, it would have been all over the mainstream European press.


funny since the context was regarding the Alex Berenson v Twitter lawsuit. 

But as per usual, you are arguing your own points whether relevant or not.


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The laziest are typically amused when someone else doesn’t do their work for them…


You seem to be operating under the assumption that I didn't find relevant information.

And -- as I already stated -- that doesn't answer the question.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Gottcha.  Harumphing.  Like the sewage sea foam wraiths.  But there's an important point in all of it about where we need to be monitoring.  Not so much for natural Cvirus genetic diversity anymore.  But for point sources of re-emergence.


Ignoring the origin story, it sounds like the virus at this stage transfers more easily from human to animal.  It that incorrect, unknown, or just a result of the fact that the virus is so pervasive in humans?


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Gottcha.  Harumphing.  Like the sewage sea foam wraiths.  But there's an important point in all of it about where we need to be monitoring.  Not so much for natural Cvirus genetic diversity anymore.  But for point sources of re-emergence.


BTW I did google up the "close the beaches thing".  It's a LOL for me in that the UCSD/Scripps person in question here is Kim Prather.  Turns out this is somebody my son was recommended to try and work with if he ended up choosing UCSD.  For what's its worth, here's her "side" of the whole debacle, at least as told through an outlet called "Beachgrit".









						Fake news: Scripps scientist Kim ‘wants to yell out her window at every surfer’ Prather says LA Times “retaught me the meaning of out of context” - BeachGrit
					

If I had a dollar for every time a subject said I misquoted ‘em, oowee, I’d be dining, nightly, on civet, otter and wolf puppies, sourced from the finest Chinese wet market. But, knowing media, as I do, having seen the machinations and dirty dealings of major newspapers, I know how often...




					beachgrit.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Ignoring the origin story, it sounds like the virus at this stage transfers more easily from human to animal.  It that incorrect, unknown, or just a result of the fact that the virus is so pervasive in humans?


IMO unknown would be the safe answer, although the pervasiveness can't but help be a driver.  A big unknown will be if it's an R11 virus for us, how infectious does it remain after adapting to new zoonotic hosts.  And let's hope jumping back is harder.  I was thinking about this because I got some kind of animal rescue email about a scam where long tour service members dropped their dogs off at this "boarding facility".  Which then kept them in malnourished conditions in the vicinity of dead livestock.  I would image rodents and other wild critters were coming and going.  These situations would not be as ideal incubators as the caves in China, but if Cov2 retains high infectivity in its new resevoris these types of situations could bear monitoring.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> You seem to be operating under the assumption that I didn't find relevant information.
> 
> And -- as I already stated -- that doesn't answer the question.


I’m not your dosi doh partner…..find someone else who wants to play your my damn games cause it doesn’t matter where she found it, does it….NO.


It’s out there and public record


----------



## espola

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I’m not your dosi doh partner…..find someone else who wants to play your my damn games cause it doesn’t matter where she found it, does it….NO.
> 
> 
> It’s out there and public record


And what does the "public record" show?  For a time, Berenson was Tucker Carlson's favorite science fiction writer, even giving him regular segments on his show.  However, when it became obvious that Berenson's "don't worry about covid" fables were obviously dangerously wrong, he was dropped.  So he continued his self-promoting campaign on twitter.

None of that answers the question of where Grace got her hand-wringing version.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> And what does the "public record" show?  For a time, Berenson was Tucker Carlson's favorite science fiction writer, even giving him regular segments on his show.  However, when it became obvious that Berenson's "don't worry about covid" fables were obviously dangerously wrong, he was dropped.  So he continued his self-promoting campaign on twitter.
> 
> None of that answers the question of where Grace got her hand-wringing version.


How was he dangerous?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Grace T. said:


> Funny how quickly they found those schrews.


Was the misspelling intentional? Some kinda hybrid shrew?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> How was he dangerous?


He was casting doubt about the seriousness of the pandemic and the efficacy of the vaccines.  Eventually, not even Fox News could stand him, so he took his personal-publicity campaign to Twitter, where he recruited paid memberships for his exclusive website.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> He was casting doubt about the seriousness of the pandemic and the efficacy of the vaccines.


Lol!  What was he mandating?


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> BTW I did google up the "close the beaches thing".  It's a LOL for me in that the UCSD/Scripps person in question here is Kim Prather.  Turns out this is somebody my son was recommended to try and work with if he ended up choosing UCSD.  For what's its worth, here's her "side" of the whole debacle, at least as told through an outlet called "Beachgrit".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake news: Scripps scientist Kim ‘wants to yell out her window at every surfer’ Prather says LA Times “retaught me the meaning of out of context” - BeachGrit
> 
> 
> If I had a dollar for every time a subject said I misquoted ‘em, oowee, I’d be dining, nightly, on civet, otter and wolf puppies, sourced from the finest Chinese wet market. But, knowing media, as I do, having seen the machinations and dirty dealings of major newspapers, I know how often...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beachgrit.com


Best of luck to your son on his college choices.
, 
As far as your article goes, yeah "journalists" have a tendency to embellish, but in this case these were direct quotes from her.  Word to paper doesn't always translate as you think and it sounds like she realized how irrational she sounded when she read the articles.  Nevertheless, she was dead wrong, and in fact her opinion was dangerous.

We all make mistakes and its how a mistake is handled is the true test of character.  She never issued an apology or a retraction of her opinion.  Saying she was taken out of context is neither.  My biggest issue with the scientific community is the lack of accountability.  When a credential scientist makes a public opinion there is an implied credibility and in some cases, like Dad4, a reverence for that opinion.  As best as I can tell, there are no repercussions for giving a false opinion, other than scorn from other scientists if you disagree with the consensus opinion.  Most credentialed professions have a Code of Ethics with discipline for violating those ethics.  To restore credibility in the scientific community it would be prudent to develop some sort of accountability system, particularly for any opinions or studies that are issued publicly.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Best of luck to your son on his college choices.
> ,
> As far as your article goes, yeah "journalists" have a tendency to embellish, but in this case these were direct quotes from her.  Word to paper doesn't always translate as you think and it sounds like she realized how irrational she sounded when she read the articles.  Nevertheless, she was dead wrong, and in fact her opinion was dangerous.
> 
> We all make mistakes and its how a mistake is handled is the true test of character.  She never issued an apology or a retraction of her opinion.  Saying she was taken out of context is neither.  My biggest issue with the scientific community is the lack of accountability.  When a credential scientist makes a public opinion there is an implied credibility and in some cases, like Dad4, a reverence for that opinion.  As best as I can tell, there are no repercussions for giving a false opinion, other than scorn from other scientists if you disagree with the consensus opinion.  Most credentialed professions have a Code of Ethics with discipline for violating those ethics.  To restore credibility in the scientific community it would be prudent to develop some sort of accountability system, particularly for any opinions or studies that are issued publicly.


Did you read what she said in  the article?

"_In another part of the conversation, we discussed all of the pollution run-off that gets into the ocean especially after the rains we have had. It is well documented that our oceans become polluted at times–many here in SD are quite polluted now. There is also sewage in the ocean. The point I was trying to make was I would not go in the ocean (here in SD) where it is polluted right now nor would I go to the crowded beaches. As I suspected would happen that quote about not going in the ocean has now been used for many headlines around the world–turns out it was excellent “clickbait”._ "


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

If you come up with the new name for Monkeypox, you will get a free fries with your next burger. Thoughts from the forum for new name?

Suckerpox
Poxoflies
Manpox
Justpox


----------



## Desert Hound

Mask mandate didn’t work against COVID-19 in LA, say doctors from USC and UCLA
					

A letter from USC and UCLA doctors and researchers sent to L.A. Board of Supervisors said mask mandates won’t slow the spread. Other doctors disagree as the mask debate rages on.




					www.ocregister.com


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> Mask mandate didn’t work against COVID-19 in LA, say doctors from USC and UCLA
> 
> 
> A letter from USC and UCLA doctors and researchers sent to L.A. Board of Supervisors said mask mandates won’t slow the spread. Other doctors disagree as the mask debate rages on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ocregister.com


Which is odd since masks are still required at UCLA.


----------



## dad4

Going back to your old theory of " find someone who sounds qualified but agrees with me anyway."

You do realize that medical school doesn't actually include statistics training, right?  If a policy caused a 10% increase or decrease in transmission rates, there is nothing in med school that would help them find it.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Going back to your old theory of " find someone who sounds qualified but agrees with me anyway."
> 
> You do realize that medical school doesn't actually include statistics training, right?  If a policy caused a 10% increase or decrease in transmission rates, there is nothing in med school that would help them find it.


Lab guy that crunches numbers > Medical doctor that actually treats patients.  Got it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Lab guy that crunches numbers > Medical doctor that actually treats patients.  Got it.


Who said one is better or worse?

Every prescription medication you've ever taken is approved by both.  The lab guys crunch the numbers before FDA approval.   Later on, the doctor looks at your specific case and writes the prescription.

Neither one knows how to do the other's job.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Who said one is better or worse?
> 
> Every prescription medication you've ever taken is approved by both.  The lab guys crunch the numbers before FDA approval.   Later on, the doctor looks at your specific case and writes the prescription.
> 
> Neither one knows how to do the other's job.


I was referring specifically to your inference that medical doctors aren't qualified to render an opinion on the efficacy of masks, not the global roles of each.  Then again I'd still trust a medical doctor's opinion on the efficacy of a prescription than I would a lab guy that isn't actually treating patients on a daily basis.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> I was referring specifically to your inference that medical doctors aren't qualified to render an opinion on the efficacy of masks, not the global roles of each.  Then again I'd still trust a medical doctor's opinion on the efficacy of a prescription than I would a lab guy that isn't actually treating patients on a daily basis.


The medical environment is a pressure cooker and creates an environment counter productive to comprehensive well being, IMHO. I have many experiences where we found a better way through our own research than “modern” “medical” “doctors” aka pill pushers provided. Not a fan, just saying. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> The medical environment is a pressure cooker and creates an environment counter productive to comprehensive well being, IMHO. I have many experiences where we found a better way through our own research than “modern” “medical” “doctors” aka pill pushers provided. Not a fan, just saying. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


So what you are saying is that big pharma has a way of influencing the medical community via a menu of options they provide to treat the daily human condition?  interesting.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> The medical environment is a pressure cooker and creates an environment counter productive to comprehensive well being, IMHO. I have many experiences where we found a better way through our own research than “modern” “medical” “doctors” aka pill pushers provided. Not a fan, just saying. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


Irony aside, yeah you have to be your own advocate because you know your body best.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Irony aside, yeah you have to be your own advocate because you know your body best.


Husker has always been a one size fits all advocate.  But he has the most furious arguments with himself.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> Which is odd since masks are still required at UCLA.


My kid got an email this weekend that said test nor mask are required when they return to the Den.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Irony aside, yeah you have to be your own advocate because you know your body best.


The big ones for me were “chiropractors are a waste of time” and “No, it has nothing to do with your diet (what I eat)”.


----------



## Lion Eyes

*Mask mandate didn’t work against COVID-19 in LA, say doctors from USC and UCLA*

 A letter from top-level doctors and researchers arguing against the effectiveness of indoor mask mandates, along with pushback from health departments, cities and business groups, possibly played a role in a surprise decision not to re-institute the mandate in Los Angeles County last month.

This newspaper obtained a copy of a February 2022 letter signed by doctors from UCLA’s Geffen School of Medicine and USC’s Keck School of Medicine sent to the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, asking the county to end the mask mandate that was in effect this past winter, claiming the policy did not work.

On July 22, some of the same doctors published their views in an op-ed in the Orange County Register, one of the newspapers in the Southern California News Group. At the time in July, the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health (LACDPH) was strongly considering reimposing an indoor mask mandate — but on July 29 decided not to do so.

The letter to the Board of Supervisors, part of a campaign to educate the board, was signed by Dr. Jeffrey D. Klausner, clinical professor of medicine, population and public health sciences at USC’s Keck School of Medicine; Neeraj Sood, professor of public policy at USC’s Sol Price School of Public Policy; James E. Enstrom, retired professor of epidemiology at UCLA; Dr. Noah Kojima, senior resident for internal medicine at UCLA’s David Geffen School of Medicine; Dr. Catherine A. Sarkisian of UCLA’s Geffen School; James E. Moore, II, professor at USC’s Viterbi School of Engineering; Dr. Gabe Vorobiof, associate professor of medicine and cardiology at UCLA Geffen School of Medicine; and Avanidhar Subrahmanyam, professor at UCLA’s Anderson School.

Entire article:








						Mask mandate didn’t work against COVID-19 in LA, say doctors from USC and UCLA
					

A letter from USC and UCLA doctors and researchers sent to L.A. Board of Supervisors said mask mandates won’t slow the spread. Other doctors disagree as the mask debate rages on.




					www.dailynews.com


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> The big ones for me were “chiropractors are a waste of time” and “No, it has nothing to do with your diet (what I eat)”.


sounds like your doc is stuck practicing 1977 medicine.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> Best of luck to your son on his college choices.


That is kind.  Thanks. He had a really good camp at UCSD and there was a little bit of back and forth with the coach.  They ultimately did recruit a new keeper but a transfer student from somewhere, so I never really thought he'd end up there. He was fortunate to have a number of good academic options.



watfly said:


> As far as your article goes, yeah "journalists" have a tendency to embellish, but in this case these were direct quotes from her.  Word to paper doesn't always translate as you think and it sounds like she realized how irrational she sounded when she read the articles.  Nevertheless, she was dead wrong, and in fact her opinion was dangerous.
> 
> We all make mistakes and its how a mistake is handled is the true test of character.  She never issued an apology or a retraction of her opinion.  Saying she was taken out of context is neither.  My biggest issue with the scientific community is the lack of accountability.  When a credential scientist makes a public opinion there is an implied credibility and in some cases, like Dad4, a reverence for that opinion.  As best as I can tell, there are no repercussions for giving a false opinion, other than scorn from other scientists if you disagree with the consensus opinion.  Most credentialed professions have a Code of Ethics with discipline for violating those ethics.  To restore credibility in the scientific community it would be prudent to develop some sort of accountability system, particularly for any opinions or studies that are issued publicly.


So, code of conduct stuff mostly comes in terms of manipulation of data. There are formal procedures.  If upheld, for ladder rank people they're just done. And people's grants  get yanked from time to time, sometimes for clearly articulated reasons and sometimes not. But you're talking about review boards, that sort of thing for running your mouth in public and consequences for that, especially if perceived to have a bearing on policy in some way.  And I know you realize there is a real issue in terms of protected forms of speech and a certain tension implied in "false opinion".  Also, what cases are considered and who are the abritraters?  So in a serious vein I think what you are considering is difficult. I was somewhat serious in that if you write a professional and polite letter aimed at the dean/associate dean level it may well filter down to the department chair. The department chair at many places only has one real job, which is to push through merit and promotion files. And since the letter came from the dean the chair may well go, well, guess I put it the file. Next file review the department will see it and go "what the heck? Don't know what to do with this put maybe you should talk with her and just tell her to be careful."  And then she may not choose public engagement anymore. 

Even if the boards you're considering were to be feasible, many of the worst perpertrators are way and beyond the reach of any sort of agency that could have a meaningful effect (well, maybe short of Jack deplatforming them). It's like any other human institution.  The closer you are to money, power and privilege the more insulated you are from consequences.  Take a wanker like Vinay Prasad for example.  Has a tether like academic appointment somewhere to go with the initials. But at this point he really just orbits around that in a slushy money institute sort of existence getting to spew out whatever he, or unseen source of funds, want.  No review board is going to touch that.  And he keeps it sciency enough that Jack won't touch him, etc.  The only thing you can do is get online yourself, sneak up behind them and go "hey you, you're full of shit and here's why". One at a time.

So, in a more lighthearted vein, the more I think about it the more I love your idea of review boards.  The Evil Goalie science review board.  I'd get to be judge and jury.  I'd have all kinds of interesting penalties (eg. show you can pass a post-Watson and Crick immunology course with a B or better or be deplatformed).  And man, could I draw up a list. But probably not the same docket you would choose. Shoot, maybe everybody should have one....or maybe everybody already has.


----------



## crush

4x Jabbed Defense Sec Lloyd has Covid. I hope he get's well soon and I mean that 100%.


----------



## crush

First Lady Jill Biden has also tested positive for Covid 19. I pray for a quick recovery.

"The First Lady is *double-vaccinated, twice boosted*, and only experiencing mild symptoms," her communications director, Elizabeth Alexander, said in a statement. "She has been prescribed a course of Paxlovid and, following CDC guidance, will isolate from others for at least five days."


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> That is kind.  Thanks. He had a really good camp at UCSD and there was a little bit of back and forth with the coach.  They ultimately did recruit a new keeper but a transfer student from somewhere, so I never really thought he'd end up there. He was fortunate to have a number of good academic options.


Dropping my freshman daughter off at college tomorrow.  I just know how crazy and stressful the process is for them.  Particularly when you are pursuing a sport, or in her case a dance team.  IMO college is great, but where you go to college is vastly overrated.  Its hard for kids to understand that though and feel pressure to go to prestigious schools.  I know she will do fine academically and I just really want her to have a great time.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Dropping my freshman daughter off at college tomorrow.  I just know how crazy and stressful the process is for them.  Particularly when you are pursuing a sport, or in her case a dance team.  IMO college is great, but where you go to college is vastly overrated.  Its hard for kids to understand that though and feel pressure to go to prestigious schools.  I know she will do fine academically and I just really want her to have a great time.


Have fun dropping her off. Are you empty nester now bro?


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Have fun dropping her off. Are you empty nester now bro?


Nope, son started HS yesterday.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> To restore credibility in the scientific community it would be prudent to develop some sort of accountability system, particularly for any opinions or studies that are issued publicly.


I'd be o.k. with a simple commitment to the principles of open debate and a free exchange of ideas.

Leana Wen was one of the most pro lockdown/pro masks/pro vaxx people out there.  She reversed course several months ago and famously said cloth masks were little more than facial decorations against later strains.  She is supposed to be the key note speaker at the American Public Health Association and will be delivering a talk entitled "Backlash" pointing out the dangers in the current public backlash against public health.   A group within the APHA is trying to get her cancelled from giving the keynote.  They cite numerous reasons (including a tangent on her admin time at Planned Parenthood) but it basically comes down to her urging that infection should be accepted as the new normal.









						Response to APHA Wen Speaker
					

Collective Statement in response to Leana Wen, MD, MSc as Speaker for the 2022 American Public Health Association Annual Meeting in Boston, MA  As public health practitioners, educators, students, advocates, and allies, we are deeply concerned about the decision to make Leana Wen, MD, MSc a spea...




					docs.google.com


----------



## crush




----------



## Pollo Elastico

This gets back to testing. Long term testing that is required before vaxxes hit the market.

And yet in many areas/industries we mandated people to get an experimental vaxx. Dad and others were all for those types of mandates. 









						Report: Pregnant Women in Pfizer Trial Lost Their Babies; FDA and CDC Recommended Jabs For Expectant Mothers Anyway › American Greatness
					

pregnant women who participated in Pfizer's mRNA COVID vaccine trial suffered miscarriages, according an analysis of internal Pfizer documents, recently released under court order. Despite this…




					amgreatness.com


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> This gets back to testing. Long term testing that is required before vaxxes hit the market.
> 
> And yet in many areas/industries we mandated people to get an experimental vaxx. Dad and others were all for those types of mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: Pregnant Women in Pfizer Trial Lost Their Babies; FDA and CDC Recommended Jabs For Expectant Mothers Anyway › American Greatness
> 
> 
> pregnant women who participated in Pfizer's mRNA COVID vaccine trial suffered miscarriages, according an analysis of internal Pfizer documents, recently released under court order. Despite this…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amgreatness.com


Dad was wrong again. My buddy wanted grand kids and now he is not sure because his only bloodline is not producing. After her 2nd jab, she missed her periods and now they don't come around. She has been jabbed 4x and is telling folks she never really wanted to bring a kid into this world.


----------



## espola

Pollo Elastico said:


> This gets back to testing. Long term testing that is required before vaxxes hit the market.
> 
> And yet in many areas/industries we mandated people to get an experimental vaxx. Dad and others were all for those types of mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: Pregnant Women in Pfizer Trial Lost Their Babies; FDA and CDC Recommended Jabs For Expectant Mothers Anyway › American Greatness
> 
> 
> pregnant women who participated in Pfizer's mRNA COVID vaccine trial suffered miscarriages, according an analysis of internal Pfizer documents, recently released under court order. Despite this…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amgreatness.com











						Covid vaccines don't increase risk of miscarriage or birth defects, CDC says
					

The CDC tracked 1,613 pregnant women who received a Covid-19 vaccine, 30% of whom were vaccinated in the second trimester with the rest in the third trimester.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Covid vaccines don't increase risk of miscarriage or birth defects, CDC says
> 
> 
> The CDC tracked 1,613 pregnant women who received a Covid-19 vaccine, 30% of whom were vaccinated in the second trimester with the rest in the third trimester.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


The CDC is on the case (as long as proof isn't available).  Wunder what they would say about the released documents...after all, they are the resource that the medical community relies upon to guide them.  Incredible organziation with a rock solid reputation for shooting straight.


----------



## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Covid vaccines don't increase risk of miscarriage or birth defects, CDC says
> 
> 
> The CDC tracked 1,613 pregnant women who received a Covid-19 vaccine, 30% of whom were vaccinated in the second trimester with the rest in the third trimester.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


From the people who said:
Once you're vaccinated you can't get Covid
Wearing a mask protects you against covid
Stay six feet apart
We need to shut down schools

Yea, figures you'd buy into their rhetoric...


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Covid vaccines don't increase risk of miscarriage or birth defects, CDC says
> 
> 
> The CDC tracked 1,613 pregnant women who received a Covid-19 vaccine, 30% of whom were vaccinated in the second trimester with the rest in the third trimester.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Myocarditis, remember that.

1 shot = Tik
2 shots = Tik Tik
3 shots = Tik Tik Tik
4 shots + = Dumb$#it


----------



## Hüsker Dü

espola said:


> Covid vaccines don't increase risk of miscarriage or birth defects, CDC says
> 
> 
> The CDC tracked 1,613 pregnant women who received a Covid-19 vaccine, 30% of whom were vaccinated in the second trimester with the rest in the third trimester.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


You know on the one side we have the occasional one more No or knot, but on the other there is a constant flow of “alternative” identities. I will go ahead and get ahead of the rush to ignore the cult’s latest “Crush”.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Happened again said:


> The CDC is on the case (as long as proof isn't available).  Wunder what they would say about the released documents...after all, they are the resource that the medical community relies upon to guide them.  Incredible organziation with a rock solid reputation for shooting straight.


Don’t forget how many Pfizer ads you saw running on cnbc, msnbc and cnn over the past 2 years…..


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Like I was saying it's got to be one..at..a..time.  And when the latest doo doo gets run up the flagpole since we've all been around a bit on this and we're all interested in the Truth and everything the first thing we ask ourselves (or recall since its been on here before) is "what is the baseline frequency of miscarriage".  And unfortunately, its pretty high, largely due to chromosome segregation errors during during germ cell meiosis. Anyhoo...if you don't like the CDC analysis of miscarriage frequency +/- vaxx you could try the UK yellow card system.  For a lot of stuff the UK has better data anyway.  But TLDR comes out with same conclusion as CDC. 





__





						Coronavirus vaccine - summary of Yellow Card reporting
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## crush




----------



## Hüsker Dü

CDC director orders agency overhaul, admitting flawed Covid-19 response — POLITICO
					

Rochelle Walensky wants to boost transparency by releasing data more quickly and to improve communication with the public.




					apple.news


----------



## thirteenknots

Hüsker Dü said:


> You know on the one side we have the occasional one more No or knot, but on the other there is a constant flow of “alternative” identities. I will go ahead and get ahead of the rush to ignore the cult’s latest “Crush”.


In the middle 
of a knot.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Like I was saying it's got to be one..at..a..time.  And when the latest doo doo gets run up the flagpole since we've all been around a bit on this and we're all interested in the Truth and everything the first thing we ask ourselves (or recall since its been on here before) is "what is the baseline frequency of miscarriage".  And unfortunately, its pretty high, largely due to chromosome segregation errors during during germ cell meiosis. Anyhoo...if you don't like the CDC analysis of miscarriage frequency +/- vaxx you could try the UK yellow card system.  For a lot of stuff the UK has better data anyway.  But TLDR comes out with same conclusion as CDC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus vaccine - summary of Yellow Card reporting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk


Gee, I wonder what the CDC and gov.uk could have in common?

The fact that these studies claim that the vaccine doesn't impact a woman's reproductive system is of no solace to those that have been impacted.  As far as I'm concerned the CDC and gov.uk can f#@k off with that bullshit.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Gee, I wonder what the CDC and gov.uk could have in common?
> 
> The fact that these studies claim that the vaccine doesn't impact a woman's reproductive system is of no solace to those that have been impacted.  As far as I'm concerned the CDC and gov.uk can f#@k off with that bullshit.











						GOOD LUCK WORLD
					

If you never thought your government would lie to you, listen to Bill Clinton in 1995 apologizing to the survivors and families of those who unknowingly were subjects of over 4,000 government-sponsored medical experiments




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

You Don't Say...
					

Brett Sutton, Chief Health Officer for Victoria, got caught backpedaling in regards of his own comments about the shot's effectiveness.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush

From the top of the CDC-

"For *75 years, CDC and public health have been preparing for COVID-19*, *and in our big moment, our performance did not reliably meet expectations," *she said in a statement obtained by The Washington Post. "My goal is a new, public health action-oriented culture at CDC that emphasizes accountability, collaboration, communication, and timeliness."


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> From the top of the CDC-
> 
> "For *75 years, CDC and public health have been preparing for COVID-19*, *and in our big moment, our performance did not reliably meet expectations," *she said in a statement obtained by The Washington Post. "My goal is a new, public health action-oriented culture at CDC that emphasizes accountability, collaboration, communication, and timeliness."


You should know that Wallensky’s opinion of the mistakes and your opinion of the mistakes are not exactly the same.

She was a little more interested in creating actionable data so policy can respond more quickly.   

Getting rid of vaccines and masks was not on her to-do list.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> You should know that Wallensky’s opinion of the mistakes and your opinion of the mistakes are not exactly the same.
> 
> She was a little more interested in creating actionable data so policy can respond more quickly.
> 
> Getting rid of vaccines and masks was not on her to-do list.


They had 75 years to get Covid 19 right and they failed dad. You failed as well but you're in denial. At least the CDC can admit they F us all. Miscarriages are huge and so are SADS. You notice no one talks about the deaths now? It reads, "They died peacefully with their loved ones around them. The family wishes not to share how they actually died and they ask for privacy." Where was the privacy for Herman Cain? Dude was on borrowed time and all of you asshats told us it was Covid 19 theat killed him and not stage 4 cancer that killed him. Now all deaths are a private family matter.


----------



## crush

CNN Breaking News. The news show, "Reliable Sources" hosted by Brian Stelter is now canceled and not reliable anymore.


----------



## crush

Goodbye Brian. This guy lied for 5 years and now has no job. Liars will not prosper in the next game of life. Trust me everyone and you can take being honest as the way of the future. Being HOT is the way, the life and the truth. Being a Liar will get you fired and scorned forever. Most of the cheaters and liars we have all known will have to deal with their Karma for their lies. You paid to play and now it's your turn to pay mwith your reputation. No way out of whats coming folks. Get HOT ASAP is my only advice. HOT= Honest, Open and Transparent. Stop being a COLD hearted human. COLD=Cheater, Obtuse, Liar and Dumb


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

On a front other than the birth rate, Europe is finally acknowledging that there is a large number of excess deaths occurring and the uk has announced an urgent look at the problem.  Covid Twitter is awash in speculation: covidian Twitter says its long term damage from repeated infections and long Covid, anti Covid vax Twitter says it’s the shot causing heart issues, anti lockdown Twitter says it’s the results of people missing their screenings and health impacts of lockdown.  The problem is there is wide variance in excess deaths by country and at first glance no strong correlation with Covid numbers, vax rates or rigorousness of lockdowns.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> On a front other than the birth rate, Europe is finally acknowledging that there is a large number of excess deaths occurring and the uk has announced an urgent look at the problem.  Covid Twitter is awash in speculation: covidian Twitter says its long term damage from repeated infections and long Covid, anti Covid vax Twitter says it’s the shot causing heart issues, anti lockdown Twitter says it’s the results of people missing their screenings and health impacts of lockdown.  The problem is there is wide variance in excess deaths by country and at first glance no strong correlation with Covid numbers, vax rates or rigorousness of lockdowns.


How does one get access to "covidian twitter" and "lockdown twitter"?


----------



## Grace T.

Pay walled but here's the lockdown argument









						Lockdown effects feared to be killing more people than Covid
					

Unexplained excess deaths outstrip those from virus as medics call figures ‘terrifying’




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




The issue is it doesn't correlate.  Switzerland did not have bone crushing lockdowns yet is having similar effects (Sweden's were mainly in 2021 for some reason).  

Could it may be that notwithstanding the lockdowns some people were afraid of going to the doctors so avoided treatment?  The vax?  Long Covid?


----------



## Grace T.

Sweden wound up with lower excess death per 100K than most of Europe.  Hard core lockdown/maskers Peru finishes the worst.  Norway and Denmark aren't on the list but my understanding is it's somewhat less than Sweden though Norway was a no masking country.  Germany which was a hard core masking country and periodic lockdowns finishes almost twice as bad as Sweden.   Sweden would have finished better if it had done a better job with nursing homes (one thing BTW which Denmark got spectacularly right).   One correlation seems to be obesity rates.  The hard lockdown states of Australia, New Zealand and China finishes the best.  And then there's Japan, which has masks border controls and a strong sickout culture, but had poor testing and leaky lockdowns.  Older article but there's no correlation it seems here either beyond the strong lockdowners.









						Sweden’s Covid death rate among lowest in Europe, despite avoiding strict lockdowns
					

New WHO figures show pandemic wrought ‘staggering toll’ of almost 15m fatalities, but harsh restrictions were not the key to beating virus




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> The issue is...covid stuff...excess mortiality...doesn't correlate.


80's dino-rock and Peter Garret does in fact kind of look like Freddy Krueger, but after all these years I'm still partial to this song.  "steaming 45".


----------



## Grace T.

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> 80's dino-rock and Peter Garret does in fact kind of look like Freddy Krueger, but after all these years I'm still partial to this song.  "steaming 45".


Oh crush you and your silly memes.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Grace T. said:


> Sweden wound up with lower excess death per 100K than most of Europe.  Hard core lockdown/maskers Peru finishes the worst.  Norway and Denmark aren't on the list but my understanding is it's somewhat less than Sweden though Norway was a no masking country.  Germany which was a hard core masking country and periodic lockdowns finishes almost twice as bad as Sweden.   Sweden would have finished better if it had done a better job with nursing homes (one thing BTW which Denmark got spectacularly right).   One correlation seems to be obesity rates.  The hard lockdown states of Australia, New Zealand and China finishes the best.  And then there's Japan, which has masks border controls and a strong sickout culture, but had poor testing and leaky lockdowns.  Older article but there's no correlation it seems here either beyond the strong lockdowners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden’s Covid death rate among lowest in Europe, despite avoiding strict lockdowns
> 
> 
> New WHO figures show pandemic wrought ‘staggering toll’ of almost 15m fatalities, but harsh restrictions were not the key to beating virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


I think dad will link something somehow to bars in order to keep on believing masks and mandates actually do/did work.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> I think dad will link something somehow to bars in order to keep on believing masks and mandates actually do/did work.


By definition, a nightclub has a large number of unmasked people standing close to each other and shouting in a poorly ventilated space.

If you can't figure out what that means for a disease spread by aerosol particles, there isn't much I can do to help.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> You should know that Wallensky’s opinion of the mistakes and your opinion of the mistakes are not exactly the same.
> 
> She was a little more interested in creating actionable data so policy can respond more quickly.
> 
> Getting rid of vaccines and masks was not on her to-do list.


You give her way too much credit.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> By definition, a nightclub has a large number of unmasked people standing close to each other and shouting in a poorly ventilated space.
> 
> If you can't figure out what that means for a disease spread by aerosol particles, there isn't much I can do to help.


didn't they talk about this in nashville years ago?  remember when everyone in nashville was going to die from bars and didn't?


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> How does one get access to "covidian twitter" and "lockdown twitter"?


Just accept the TRUTH and you are 
free to proceed.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

I suppose just another example of intelligence not implying wisdom.








						Bay Area school calls police in dispute over whether 4-year-old must wear a mask. Parents might sue
					

The Mountain View Whisman School District is one of only two districts in California that...




					www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## crush

*Los Angeles requires youth basketball participants to wear masks, critic calls policy 'dangerous'*
*The City of Los Angeles Department of Recreation and Parks is requiring youth to wear masks while playing basketball

*

*I feel horrible for these kids. In order to ball in the City of Angels, you have to be fully jabbed to enter gym, plus you have to wear a mask at all times when you play hoops. This is insane!!  On top of that, I heard a radio commercial telling all parents to fully jab their kids to start the school year off safe. *


----------



## crush

*CDC director says it's 'frustrating' when health decisions are 'political'*

100% I agree. Plus, when people lose their income over health decisions.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Grace T. said:


> Oh crush you and your silly memes.


If you want to find a meaningful signature in excess deaths vis-a-vis covid you'll need to bracket your time frame pretty tightly.  Like what people have done with India  April-June 2021.  Or to a lesser extent Sweden March-June, 2020. And if you want to do it in a comparative way everybody gets to pick their favorite variable and its a hot mess. For Europe summer 2022 literally. For "heat wave" I had my 9 yr old pick her favorite between the indie band Glass Animals and Martha and the Vandellas.  She ultimately went with the newer stuff but she did have to think about it.  That's my own little psyop.

Now on Crush's meme my impression, which could be wrong, is that the work rate of our outside influencers has fallen off a bit.  There was a time, a year ago or so, when disinfo on vaccines and mis-carriages would have been immediately followed up with some kind of replacement theory thing.  Like the Bronze Age Thor guy with the gold hair and beard masquerading as Adonis too sexy for his shirt talking about his staying power. Something like that. But now,  nothing really.  And for some reason the good guys and bad guys often now have the same AI generated face style.  Hard to tell them apart that way.  So I don't know.  Maybe on replacement theory the whole testicle tanning thing made it so stupid that people started laughing for the wrong reasons.  Or, more likely, we are now looking at the B team with respect to vaccines and the A team is off following behind the traffic on elections.  A much higher value target.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Truth Speak From Dr. Fauci to Sylvia. This is one one of the times we got honesty from him.


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> By definition, a nightclub has a large number of unmasked people standing close to each other and shouting in a poorly ventilated space.
> 
> If you can't figure out what that means for a disease spread by aerosol particles, there isn't much I can do to help.


Beautiful at the Del Mar Race Track yesterday.  Lotsa shouting there.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> If you want to find a meaningful signature in excess deaths vis-a-vis covid you'll need to bracket your time frame pretty tightly.  Like what people have done with India  April-June 2021.  Or to a lesser extent Sweden March-June, 2020. And if you want to do it in a comparative way everybody gets to pick their favorite variable and its a hot mess. For Europe summer 2022 literally. For "heat wave" I had my 9 yr old pick her favorite between the indie band Glass Animals and Martha and the Vandellas.  She ultimately went with the newer stuff but she did have to think about it.  That's my own little psyop.
> 
> Now on Crush's meme my impression, which could be wrong, is that the work rate of our outside influencers has fallen off a bit.  There was a time, a year ago or so, when disinfo on vaccines and mis-carriages would have been immediately followed up with some kind of replacement theory thing.  Like the Bronze Age Thor guy with the gold hair and beard masquerading as Adonis too sexy for his shirt talking about his staying power. Something like that. But now,  nothing really.  And for some reason the good guys and bad guys often now have the same AI generated face style.  Hard to tell them apart that way.  So I don't know.  Maybe on replacement theory the whole testicle tanning thing made it so stupid that people started laughing for the wrong reasons.  Or, more likely, we are now looking at the B team with respect to vaccines and the A team is off following behind the traffic on elections.  A much higher value target.


Never mind the larger time frame of virus history while compare this pandemic to itself.  Cracks me up.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> View attachment 14642


Bingo!


----------



## crush

*"Whether you’ve met him personally or not, he has touched all Americans’ lives with his work," the president wrote. "I extend my deepest thanks for his public service." Joe*


----------



## crush




----------



## Pollo Elastico

The CDC Finally Admits It Was Wrong about Natural Immunity. Why Did It Take so Long?
					

Over the last year, Americans who were unvaccinated were fired, shamed, and ostracized because public health officials refused to acknowledge then what they acknowledge today: natural immunity protects humans.



					fee.org
				




I remember when this came out.

Dad pooh poohed it because our "leaders" wanted vax passports and mandates. dad was a big fan on the mandates.

It took our CDC almost another year to come around to what was known and self evident to many.


“The newly released data show people *who once had* a SARS-CoV-2 infection *were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta,* develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19,” _Science _staff writer Meredith Wadman noted.

Wadman also noted that the research showed that *“never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people” who had previously had Covid.

“It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,”* Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute, told _Science_.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> The CDC Finally Admits It Was Wrong about Natural Immunity. Why Did It Take so Long?
> 
> 
> Over the last year, Americans who were unvaccinated were fired, shamed, and ostracized because public health officials refused to acknowledge then what they acknowledge today: natural immunity protects humans.
> 
> 
> 
> fee.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when this came out.
> 
> Dad pooh poohed it because our "leaders" wanted vax passports and mandates. dad was a big fan on the mandates.
> 
> It took our CDC almost another year to come around to what was known and self evident to many.
> 
> 
> “The newly released data show people *who once had* a SARS-CoV-2 infection *were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta,* develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19,” _Science _staff writer Meredith Wadman noted.
> 
> Wadman also noted that the research showed that *“never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people” who had previously had Covid.
> 
> “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,”* Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute, told _Science_.


I am the Natural. I thank my wife and my lucky stars for choosing to go all natural and nothing impure enters my blood.


----------



## Happened again

Pollo Elastico said:


> The CDC Finally Admits It Was Wrong about Natural Immunity. Why Did It Take so Long?
> 
> 
> Over the last year, Americans who were unvaccinated were fired, shamed, and ostracized because public health officials refused to acknowledge then what they acknowledge today: natural immunity protects humans.
> 
> 
> 
> fee.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when this came out.
> 
> Dad pooh poohed it because our "leaders" wanted vax passports and mandates. dad was a big fan on the mandates.
> 
> It took our CDC almost another year to come around to what was known and self evident to many.
> 
> 
> “The newly released data show people *who once had* a SARS-CoV-2 infection *were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta,* develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19,” _Science _staff writer Meredith Wadman noted.
> 
> Wadman also noted that the research showed that *“never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people” who had previously had Covid.
> 
> “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,”* Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute, told _Science_.


If only el fauci would have listened to his younger self.


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> If only el fauci would have listened to his younger self.


It pays to be an arrogant dumbass.









						Anthony Fauci will still get $350,000 a year from the government after he retires
					

The foremost advocate of social distancing, masks, vaccines, and gain-of-function research will remain in the public eye.




					reason.com


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> Never mind the larger time frame of virus history while compare this pandemic to itself.  Cracks me up.


What's your point?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> What's your point?


That cherry picking season ended in July.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> It pays to be an arrogant dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci will still get $350,000 a year from the government after he retires
> 
> 
> The foremost advocate of social distancing, masks, vaccines, and gain-of-function research will remain in the public eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reason.com


yes it does...


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> yes it does...


Hard to believe I was a fan of his early on.  I recall calling him a "stud" on these very forums.  I'm probably too harsh calling him a dumbass, but he is Exhibit A for "power corrupts".  He shouldn't have been the face of Covid policy after the first couple of months.  That was Trump's fault.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> Hard to believe I was a fan of his early on.  I recall calling him a "stud" on these very forums.  I'm probably too harsh calling him a dumbass, but he is Exhibit A for "power corrupts".  He shouldn't have been the face of Covid policy after the first couple of months.  That was Trump's fault.


The expecatations for him were very high.  His proximity to Pharma, his relationship with gain of function research, and his overall arrogance quickly tainted his reputation.  It's hard to fool the medical community as a whole.  The down in the trenches folks quickly tuned him out on most things, epsecally when it became obvious he was a talking head.  Trump didn't help of course, he never does.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Hard to believe I was a fan of his early on.  I recall calling him a "stud" on these very forums.  I'm probably too harsh calling him a dumbass, but he is Exhibit A for "power corrupts".  He shouldn't have been the face of Covid policy after the first couple of months.  That was Trump's fault.


He tricked many of us. You gave him the benefit of the doubt. It's the assholes fault.


----------



## crush

"The Greatest Regret Of My Life is getting the jabs." Dan B

He trusted the government and now he has deep regret, like the greatest of all his regrets in life. He did the jabs because he was scared and his Doc told him to take the jabs but now he has regrets. Anyone else willing to go deep and be honest with the group? I spoke to dear friend who has been jabbed 4+ and now has shingles. Another buddy who is sick all the time. Two pals on blood thinner and 12 people I know of who have died of heart attacks, blood clots, stroke and some died peacefully in their sleep and no one knows how they really passed away. None of my business and to a point I agree 100%.


----------



## crush

*Admiral who said unvaxxed SEALs cause 'immediate harm' to Navy admitted no combat operations affected*
*Statement made in a deposition for a suit on behalf of SEALs seeking religious exemption to taking the vaccine

*

The unvaxxed ((as if were the problem)) have had it rough and tough the last 2 and 1/2 years. I see light at end of very dark tunnel for those who went with their gut and made tough call 2 years ago and under the pressure of losing it all and saying, "hell no" to the jab.  We are and were the test group that proved something was up with these liars. You can thank me now if you find it in your heart to do so. I could use some encouragement. Many people I know got fired  Some lost their biz  Some were blocked entry to night club, baseball game or concerts. Some were not allowed to board a cruise.  Some were and still not allowed to play sports in college or in NYC. Some had to move and start all over. All of us were forced to wear a mask and stfu and obey. I feel, I feel, I feel horrible for those who got jabbed and have had adverse reactions and yes, I feel 100% the worst for those who have died and who have died all alone because of Covid 19 and because of adverse reaction to the jabs. I went to a wedding that was horrible and weird and sad. SADS is real, let me tell you. For those who can never get pregnant, I am so sorry. I got more bad news but I won't share. God Bless you all and God Bless America and God, please HELP US ASAP, TY!


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Twitter’s “Tricky” Timing Problem: Lawsuit Reveals Back Channel with CDC to Coordinate Censorship
					

“Tricky.” Over the course of 110 pages in a federal complaint, that one descriptive word seemed to stand out among the exchanges between social media executives and public health officials on censo…




					jonathanturley.org
				




This is disturbing to say the least. Gov working with private entities to shut down opposing opinions.

"The recently disclosed exchange between defendant Carol Crawford, the CDC’s Chief of digital media, revealed a back channel with Twitter and other companies to censor “unapproved opinions” on social media."


----------



## crush

*"As predicted and right on queue, the fake news mafia with their corrupt partners in congress have generated the next hoax- after defeating Russia Gate, Ukraine, Impeachment, Bounty Gate, Jan 6, and the mar a lago raid: Vaccine Gate- let the lies begin:"* Kash

TDS is real and real is as simple as simple is. TDS projects everything back to, "It's all t's fault." Why? Because so many were brainwashed from Tel A Vision and because so many think t is an asshole still, they deep down inside the pit of their soul, want Mr. t arrested and to just go away so they can go back normal life.


----------



## crush

*Blame shifters + TDS= Lost*

2020: The vaccines are safe & effective. 
2021: VAERS is a lie
2022: FDA rubber stamps jabs for children
2022 Midterms: TRUMP DID THIS. WE MUST STOP HIM AR ALL COST


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

UFO Breaking News: We're not the only ones and many think, "There already here."

What is it Sherlock? 
"It's birds" 
"No dumb dumb, it's planes & ships in da sky."
 "No stupid morons, it's..........." 
"No way dude, the Earth is......."
Whatever "IT" is, We The People are about to find out. 
I can't wait to see the look on some people's faces. The knowitalls, lol! 
Q said this will not be for everyone    
We have ALL been lied to & that is as simple as simple gets. No one knows anything. We live on Planet Lie. Soon we will be The Gr8t Planet Truth. Hold the Line & get popcorn out. What a time to be alive, right?


----------



## crush

Blame it on The Trump!!!  I have my own, "this is what I think went down" version but I won't share. I have some very good lib pals and one of them, just like clockwork, has gone, "this is all Trumps fault." It's like they all get some secret memo saying, "Blame it all on t no matter what." Yes, I know t rubs some the wrong way and yes, some of you think he's an asshole, but one thing is certain; t is in their heads and they got TDS!!! Oh, another person died suddendly and without any real reason except it was just their time to go. The good news is they died in their sleep peacefully. Bad news is my pals, pals wife found her hubby dead and that is not easy to live with. Super healthy man but it was just his time to say, "goodbye" to all of us.


----------



## crush

*DR. F:* "I may consider" showing up next year to Congress

*Megan Kelly: * “He sounds like he’s been invited for afternoon tea at one of our houses. I will consider it. I’ll consider it only if it is oversight because what I experienced was personal attacks. I will go if it…* F*ck you, Dr. Fauci!* You don’t get to say whether you go. You get a congressional subpoena, you show up, or you get the Steve Bannon treatment…”


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> *DR. F:* "I may consider" showing up next year to Congress
> 
> *Megan Kelly: * “He sounds like he’s been invited for afternoon tea at one of our houses. I will consider it. I’ll consider it only if it is oversight because what I experienced was personal attacks. I will go if it…* F*ck you, Dr. Fauci!* You don’t get to say whether you go. You get a congressional subpoena, you show up, or you get the Steve Bannon treatment…”


She is spot on.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> She is spot on.


Lot of spite in her first 8 seconds.  Then I turned it off.   Do you actually listen to hours of that?  

Not good for the soul.  It would be like putting AOC on auto-repeat.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Lot of spite in her first 8 seconds.  Then I turned it off.   Do you actually listen to hours of that?
> 
> Not good for the soul.  It would be like putting AOC on auto-repeat.


How'd I know that would be your response? The most threatening thing to the left is an opposing opinion.  Thanks for proving that again.

C'mon AOC is entertaining to say the least.  She also carries a lot of weight among leftists,  so its important to know what she is "thinking".


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> How'd I know that would be your response? The most threatening thing to the left is an opposing opinion.  Thanks for proving that again.
> 
> C'mon AOC is entertaining to say the least.  She also carries a lot of weight among leftists,  so its important to know what she is "thinking".


AOC and Kelly have a lot in common.  It’s the same theory, and an old one: find an attractive woman to vent your spleen for you.  Don’t worry too much about whether you’re making sense.  

Count me as not a fan of either.  

The value of the opinion itself is minimal.  Taking a quote about delta variant era vaccine efficacy, then contrasting it with quotes about omicron era vaccine efficacy?  And using the contrast to pretend you were lied to?

That’s just grandstanding.  There was no reason to think delta variant vaccine data would apply unchanged to omicron transmission.  Why bother complaining that it didn’t?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> How'd I know that would be your response? The most threatening thing to the left is an opposing opinion.  Thanks for proving that again.
> 
> C'mon AOC is entertaining to say the least.  She also carries a lot of weight among leftists,  so its important to know what she is "thinking".


Again there you are with the pail in your hand. “A lot of weight”? Can you show where that idea comes from? She carries far more “weight” amongst the spiteful and aggrieved. Perhaps you suffer from AOC/DS? Or is it more, again like trump, do you need a strawman, a nemesis to accuse of victimizing you and make you feel better about being against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of Americans . . . but then again you also conveniently deny that many of those Americans aren’t really “muricans”, right?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> AOC and Kelly have a lot in common.  It’s the same theory, and an old one: find an attractive woman to vent your spleen for you.  Don’t worry too much about whether you’re making sense.
> 
> Count me as not a fan of either.
> 
> The value of the opinion itself is minimal.  Taking a quote about delta variant era vaccine efficacy, then contrasting it with quotes about omicron era vaccine efficacy?  And using the contrast to pretend you were lied to?
> 
> That’s just grandstanding.  There was no reason to think delta variant vaccine data would apply unchanged to omicron transmission.  Why bother complaining that it didn’t?


There is that curious underlying misogyny again from the left.  Tell me about your law degree?



Hüsker Dü said:


> Again there you are with the pail in your hand. “A lot of weight”? Can you show where that idea comes from? She carries far more “weight” amongst the spiteful and aggrieved. Perhaps you suffer from AOC/DS? Or is it more, again like trump, do you need a strawman, a nemesis to accuse of victimizing you and make you feel better about being against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of Americans . . . but then again you also conveniently deny that many of those Americans aren’t really “muricans”, right?


I think you need to direct that to Dad4.  She is neither to be feared or lauded, but while I disagree with her politically, she is a formidable opponent.  I wouldn't discount her at all.  Are you saying we should ignore her?  I think she is more than just a squeaky wheel.









						The Paradoxical Power of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
					

While Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has immense influence over public discourse, she lacks political authority. Linley Himes highlights this paradox, arguing that to gain further influence, AOC must overcome nascent progressivism's challenges.




					www.nupoliticalreview.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> There is that curious underlying misogyny again from the left.  Tell me about your law degree?
> 
> 
> I think you need to direct that to Dad4.  She is neither to be feared or lauded, but while I disagree with her politically, she is a formidable opponent.  I wouldn't discount her at all.  Are you saying we should ignore her?  I think she is more than just a squeaky wheel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Paradoxical Power of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
> 
> 
> While Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has immense influence over public discourse, she lacks political authority. Linley Himes highlights this paradox, arguing that to gain further influence, AOC must overcome nascent progressivism's challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nupoliticalreview.com


Law degree?  That teaches you how to argue, twist things sideways, and dodge uncomfortable points.  Kind of the opposite for what you want when trying to think through something.  Tell me about her biology PhD, and she has my respect.

Not sure why you count me on the left.  I‘m not really a high tax/wealth redistribution kind of guy.  I do think the behavior of the no-mask/no-vax/no-rules crowd resulted in a very large number of deaths.  That doesn’t mean I trust the feds to solve most social problems by injecting cash.  It just means I see the Delta wave deaths as completely avoidable.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Law degree?  That teaches you how to argue, twist things sideways, and dodge uncomfortable points.  Kind of the opposite for what you want when trying to think through something.  Tell me about her biology PhD, and she has my respect.


Missed the point entirely, again.  Your claim was that she was just a pretty face.  She is actually a very accomplished person.   Lawyers also present evidence, doesn't take a biologist to point out a persons lies...she did it with Fauci's own words alone.

Also I'm not going to let a biologist determine whether schools and businesses should be closed.  Letting Fauci do it is how we got into this mess.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> There is that curious underlying misogyny again from the left.  Tell me about your law degree?
> 
> 
> I think you need to direct that to Dad4.  She is neither to be feared or lauded, but while I disagree with her politically, she is a formidable opponent.  I wouldn't discount her at all.  Are you saying we should ignore her?  I think she is more than just a squeaky wheel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Paradoxical Power of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
> 
> 
> While Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has immense influence over public discourse, she lacks political authority. Linley Himes highlights this paradox, arguing that to gain further influence, AOC must overcome nascent progressivism's challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nupoliticalreview.com


All or nothing, “a lot of weight” or “completely ignore”, typical.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Missed the point entirely, again.  Your claim was that she was just a pretty face.  She is actually a very accomplished person.   Lawyers also present evidence, doesn't take a biologist to point out a persons lies...she did it with Fauci's own words alone.
> 
> Also I'm not going to let a biologist determine whether schools and businesses should be closed.  Letting Fauci do it is how we got into this mess.


As I remember it lord trumpy put the onus of contagious virus containment protocol on the individual states. You know that states rights kinda thing?


----------



## crush

*"Sadly, I will not be able to travel to NY this time for US Open. Thank you #NoleFam for your messages of love and support.  Good luck to my fellow players! I’ll keep in good shape and positive spirit and wait for an opportunity to compete again.  See you soon tennis world!"* Novak


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> That’s just grandstanding. There was no reason to think delta variant vaccine data would apply unchanged to omicron transmission. Why bother complaining that it didn’t?


And yet you were one of the biggest fanboys of mandating people to get the jab and were also a fan of vax passports. This despite at the time the evidence showing the virus was blowing through the later variants. 

Today you pretend that everyone knew. Many of us did. You however didn't change your opinion despite the evidence very early on showing rather specific things.


----------



## watfly

Pollo Elastico said:


> And yet you were one of the biggest fanboys of mandating people to get the jab and were also a fan of vax passports. This despite at the time the evidence showing the virus was blowing through the later variants.
> 
> Today you pretend that everyone knew. Many of us did. You however didn't change your opinion despite the evidence very early on showing rather specific things.


The "science changed" is one of the biggest lies being propagated by the science community.  The science didn't change on masks and for everything else "the speculation turned out not to be correct" is way different than the "science changing".


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Again there you are with the pail in your hand.


Don't need a pail, it comes in bottles.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Don't need a pail, it comes in bottles.
> 
> View attachment 14673


I got my "Trump Ice" back in 2016, when he upset HRC and made me a believer of my wife's predictions. TDS starts in the veins and works it's way to the brain, where t will set up shop and live in people's heads rent FREE!!!! This is the kind of political campaign that will put nail in coffin for the Ds. Dude basically will be President again and he's probably shadow boxing Joe and it will in up being three terms. That is the kind of Ice non of us have bruh!! I like t for this reason, he's the Ice man!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Don't need a pail, it comes in bottles.
> 
> View attachment 14673


Tap water from the Bronx.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tap water from the Bronx.


A lot better than SD/Colorado River water.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Missed the point entirely, again.  Your claim was that she was just a pretty face.  She is actually a very accomplished person.   Lawyers also present evidence, doesn't take a biologist to point out a persons lies...she did it with Fauci's own words alone.
> 
> Also I'm not going to let a biologist determine whether schools and businesses should be closed.  Letting Fauci do it is how we got into this mess.


She completely missed the biology.   

It was the rough equivalent of taking a quote about the 1919 flu, showing a graph of 1921 flu cases, and claiming the first quote was a deliberate lie.

That's the work of someone who doesn't know the basic material, but thinks they know everything.  Lawyer.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

So the CDC has finally come around and backed off most of the recommendations they had. They acknowledge that the vax doesnt stop the spread any more, etc.

And yet in DC...the mayor is mandating kids (who have no risk) get vaxxed or else...


*DC Mayor: All Unvaccinated Children -- Including The Many, Many Unvaccinated Minority Children In DC -- Will Be Barred From School. And Also, There Will Be No Virtual Learning Offered. They Will Be Doomed to Be Uneducated by Mayoral Edict.*
*—Ace*
In fairness, they weren't going to learn in DC schools, anyway. So.

The Daily Signal:



> The District of Columbia does not appear to have a contingency plan for unvaccinated students, who are banned from attending schools in person this fall after the first twenty days, according to comments made by Washington, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser Thursday.
> During a press conference, Bowser, a Democrat, admitted there are no alternative options, including virtual learning, for students who cannot attend school due to the District's vaccine mandate, meaning unvaccinated children will effectively be left without an education.
> *Over 40% of blacks ages 12-17 are not vaccinated, according to city data.*
> The Daily Signal asked Bowser what the plan was for unvaccinated students. Washington, D.C. public schools start Monday.
> Bowser responded *"They can go to school on Monday. But they need to get their vaccinations... and their families will be alerted as to the dates."*



They have 20 days to get their vaccination certificate, then they to be "removed" from public education.



> Updated data from the government's vaccine numbers website shows* 47% of the black children in the district ages 12-15 had not completed their primary vaccination series necessary to go back to school in person.
> Among black teens aged 16-17, 42% are unvaccinated.*



The mandate also somehow applies to _private_ schools.

But hey, this government school thing is working out great, isn't it?

And all those homeschoolers are just crazy nutters.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

NATE SILVER: Liberal Elites May Have Pressured Pfizer to Delay Vaccine — Until After 2020 Election.



> FiveThirtyEight editor-in-chief Nate Silver made a claim on Twitter that’s getting a lot of attention, quite understandably.
> Silver was commenting on Twitter on a Politico article about the Trump Administration pushing for fast-track approval of the COVID vaccine in 2020. It makes perfect sense that you would want to fast-track it, to help people as soon as it was possible.
> Silver said, “‘Trump pushed for vaccine approvals too fast’ is the worst possible critique of the Trump administration’s COVID policy. That probably saved a lot of lives. If anything approval should have been faster.”
> *His next comment, though, was the barn burner. He said that “liberal public health elites” pressured Pfizer to “change its original protocols” and delay that vaccine approval, which “had the convenient side-effect of delaying any vaccine announcement until after the election” That action “deserves more scrutiny,” Silver declared.*


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> She completely missed the biology.
> 
> It was the rough equivalent of taking a quote about the 1919 flu, showing a graph of 1921 flu cases, and claiming the first quote was a deliberate lie.
> 
> That's the work of someone who doesn't know the basic material, but thinks they know everything.  Lawyer.


Well good for you for actually watching it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Well good for you for actually watching it.


And all that proves the point . . . why waste one’s time. But kudos to you for getting someone to think maybe this time it might, finally, not be a complete waste of time.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> And all that proves the point . . . why waste one’s time. But kudos to you for getting someone to think maybe this time it might, finally, not be a complete waste of time.


A lot like reading Jim Wright quotes.  At least they're shorter.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> The "science changed" is one of the biggest lies being propagated by the science community.  The science didn't change on masks and for everything else "the speculation turned out not to be correct" is way different than the "science changing".


It demonstrates the power and influence that "academic" science has on the elites and policy makers.  People with layman's view of biology, medicine, anatomy, virology, etc were at first mildy amused at the scramble for masks and masking..but then it was like...oh shit, they really believe this and are converting it to policy. Anyway, plenty of water under the bridge.  The CDC will now be congratulated for  how they've come out and admitted their professional incompetence.  Wait until it's all corroborated how pharma and politicians were in cahoots on how vaccine research was influenced and why it was influenced.  fun stuff.  Vaccines have their place.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> A lot like reading Jim Wright quotes.  At least they're shorter.


What does he get wrong? Dad was kind enough to eloquently describe the deception Kelly attempted. Perhaps you might be able to do likewise with Jim Wright?


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> She is spot on.


The cool kids have been bitter about the curve-wrecking science nerds since Junior High.


----------



## crush

*News Headline:  *New Study Shows the Vaccinated are* 5X MORE* Contagious than the Unvaccinated 10 Days After COVID Infection


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> The cool kids have been bitter about the curve-wrecking science nerds since Junior High.


That's a very plausible theory.  The nerds have been bitter about being unpopular and powerless and this is "Revenge of the Nerds" led by Bill Gates.  I think you're on to something.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> That's a very plausible theory.  The nerds have been bitter about being unpopular and powerless and this is "Revenge of the Nerds" led by Bill Gates.  I think you're on to something.


These Nerds have some sic fetishes' to go along with their psychopathic desires to mass murder us all. They were picked last on the playground and they have now gone all in with their Revenge. Oh shit, The Nerds that know how to mix shit to make bio weapons are not to mess around with brother. BTW, my wife and I now have a nest with just the two of us. You know what that means, right? It reminds me of a cool song to ring in TGIFF!


----------



## crush

Nerds always hated sports and only a Nerd would do something like this to basketball hoops. "No sports for you and no close contact for you and no frens to visit and you have to wear a mask and take the jab or you will be fired and kicked out of life." In fact, when my dd and I were kicking the ball around at the park 2+ years ago, it was a Nerd that called the cops on us and it was a Nerd from the City that warned us that they would call more Nerds if we did not leave the park "right now" because the virus was everywhere. I still remember the look on that Nerds face. His eyes were full of fear and dude was obese. It was a Nerd that yelled at me for going Surfing without a mask and it was a Nerd that yelled at my dd at Home Depot for not wearing a mask when the Rona first came. Nerds+Fear= Nerd Fear!!! The Nerds have stolen two+ years of young kids lives. In order to get the plywood unlocked in LA to play hoops, you need to prove as a kid you got all the jabs and you have to wear a mask when you run up and down the court.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> View attachment 14674
> 
> Nerds always hated sports and only a Nerd would do something like this to basketball hoops. "No sports for you and no close contact for you and no frens to visit and you have to wear a mask and take the jab or you will be fired and kicked out of life." In fact, when my dd and I were kicking the ball around at the park 2+ years ago, it was a Nerd that called the cops on us and it was a Nerd from the City that warned us that they would call more Nerds if we did not leave the park "right now" because the virus was everywhere. I still remember the look on that Nerds face. His eyes were full of fear and dude was obese. It was a Nerd that yelled at me for going Surfing without a mask and it was a Nerd that yelled at my dd at Home Depot for not wearing a mask when the Rona first came. Nerds+Fear= Nerd Fear!!! The Nerds have stolen two+ years of young kids lives. In order to get the plywood unlocked in LA to play hoops, you need to prove as a kid you got all the jabs and you have to wear a mask when you run up and down the court.


Don't forget the sand in the skatepark.

You know that Fauci got his ass kicked on the playground on a regular basis.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Don't forget the sand in the skatepark.
> 
> You know that Fauci got his ass kicked on the playground on a regular basis.


Motive is key to why Nerds from around the world would mix up bat shit in labs to destroy our way of life bruh. As I sit and ponder the last 6 years, I see now what these Nerd Monsters have been doing. We have a few Nerds here at the forum as well. I tried to be nice to Nerds as foster child but they laugh at me in class because I couldn't talk because of my handicap. I had my Revenge of the Nerd on the playground. Pink bellies, Melvins, Rubber Fingers and throw in trash can to name a few. I was a pissed off little kid because these Nerds and their Nerd teachers were ruthless to me and it was just gnarly bro. As I right all this, the past and the pain that comes with it is real bro.


----------



## watfly

crush said:


> Motive is key to why Nerds from around the world would mix up bat shit in labs to destroy our way of life bruh. As I sit and ponder the last 6 years, I see now what these Nerd Monsters have been doing. We have a few Nerds here at the forum as well. I tried to be nice to Nerds as foster child but they laugh at me in class because I couldn't talk because of my handicap. I had my Revenge of the Nerd on the playground. Pink bellies, Melvins, Rubber Fingers and throw in trash can to name a few. I was a pissed off little kid because these Nerds and their Nerd teachers were ruthless to me and it was just gnarly bro. As I right all this, the past and the pain that comes with it is real bro.


Don't get carried away, I'm mostly being facetious.

But think about it.  The pandemic was a Nerdtopia.  Not only did their leaders have the podium, they got to stay home and play video games and not be forced to socialize.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Don't get carried away, I'm mostly being facetious.
> 
> But think about it.  The pandemic was a Nerdtopia.  Not only did their leaders have the podium, they got to stay home and play video games and not be forced to socialize.


I'm being honest with me feelings bruh. Think how some of our brave Marines feel about all those endless wars that made a few rich and the rest without limbs or worse, death.  I shared my story of survival before my birth before and my 9 lives and how as a cat, I keep landing on my feet. Insane bro to say the least. The Nerds called me a cell and worthless bastard child from another.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> That's a very plausible theory.  The nerds have been bitter about being unpopular and powerless and this is "Revenge of the Nerds" led by Bill Gates.  I think you're on to something.


Remember that Revenge of the Nerds was written by the cool kids.

The cool kids want power, so they assume that the nerds must want power.  It's why Kelly has such an easy time imagining this as a power struggle between her and Fauci.  

But, to nerds, that's just a political question.  To them, if you want to eradicate polio, you need data and vaccines.  Power struggles happen, but they are unfortunate.

From this point of view, Kelly's opinion about covid transmission is about as useful as Kelly's opinion about automotive transmissions.  She doesn't have the data or the expertise necessary to be helpful with either.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Don't forget the sand in the skatepark.
> 
> You know that Fauci got his ass kicked on the playground on a regular basis.


Sand in the skatepark is exactly what Wallensky is talking about with actionable data.   It took a very long time for research to turn into policy changes.  So we kept the early policies, whether they made sense or not.

We had early indications that gyms were risky and outdoors was safe.   But it took almost a year to open up the parks.   

The proposal is to shorten that timeframe, so that our policies reflect the available data, instead of just inertia.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Remember that Revenge of the Nerds was written by the cool kids.
> 
> The cool kids want power, so they assume that the nerds must want power.  It's why Kelly has such an easy time imagining this as a power struggle between her and Fauci.
> 
> But, to nerds, that's just a political question.  To them, if you want to eradicate polio, you need data and vaccines.  Power struggles happen, but they are unfortunate.
> 
> From this point of view, Kelly's opinion about covid transmission is about as useful as Kelly's opinion about automotive transmissions.  She doesn't have the data or the expertise necessary to be helpful with either.


I don't expect you to give her opinion any consideration.  It's not within your life paradigm to understand it.  Just like its not within my paradigm to understand putting the pandemic burdens on children.

However, it represents how many of us that don't live in an academic bubble, but live in a world where we have to make cost/benefit and risk based opinions on a daily basis, feel regarding Fauci.  Are we right?  Depends on your perspective.  It's right for us,  but obviously not right for you.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Sand in the skatepark is exactly what Wallensky is talking about with actionable data.   It took a very long time for research to turn into policy changes.  So we kept the early policies, whether they made sense or not.
> 
> We had early indications that gyms were risky and outdoors was safe.   But it took almost a year to open up the parks.
> 
> The proposal is to shorten that timeframe, so that our policies reflect the available data, instead of just inertia.


Yes, that's a large part of my frustration.  Quick to close on speculation, slow to reopen on data.  Like I said I can give a mulligan for the first couple months, but thereafter its shameful what we did to kids.

Like I've said throughout the pandemic the exception should require much more evidence than the status quo.  During the pandemic it was the opposite.  That's a dangerous precedent.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I don't expect you to give her opinion any consideration.  It's not within your life paradigm to understand it.  Just like its not within my paradigm to understand putting the pandemic burdens on children.
> 
> However, it represents how many of us that don't live in an academic bubble, but live in a world where we have to make cost/benefit and risk based opinions on a daily basis, feel regarding Fauci.  Are we right?  Depends on your perspective.  It's right for us,  but obviously not right for you.


Suppose she had given you a diatribe against continuously varuable transmissions, but consistently got GM confused with Toyota.

Would this affect your future car purchases?  Or would you go read something like Car and Driver?

That’s kind of where she is with covid.  Delivers a diatribe, but can’t tell the difference between Beta, Delta, and Omicron.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Suppose she had given you a diatribe against continuously varuable transmissions, but consistently got GM confused with Toyota.
> 
> Would this affect your future car purchases?  Or would you go read something like Car and Driver?
> 
> That’s kind of where she is with covid.  Delivers a diatribe, but can’t tell the difference between Beta, Delta, and Omicron.


You mean like when the Delta vaccine was mandated when the Omicron virus was prominent?  Yes, that's problematic.

Nice to see we're finding some common ground today.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> You mean like when the Delta vaccine was mandated when the Omicron virus was prominent?  Yes, that's problematic.
> 
> Nice to see we're finding some common ground today.


Dad really should eat some crow and wash it down with some tasty humble pie. Amazing that dads like him won't see the error of their stance and how it was 100% all political. We warned him when folks like crush and others got fired or lost the ability to make a buck like those who took the bait and all the jabs that came with it. He wrong 100% but is to prideful to admit when wrong.


----------



## crush

Things Our Govt redacts:
"Vaxx ingredients and side effects , search warrants on Presidents, school curriculum, congress and senator stock transactions, details of money to foreign countries, Epstein flight logs, Epstein black book, and harmful side effects of literally any food product, chemical, or liquid that’s used around humans. 
Our Constitutional Rights cannot be redacted! 
We want our republic back!" Fletch17


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You mean like when the Delta vaccine was mandated when the Omicron virus was prominent?  Yes, that's problematic.
> 
> Nice to see we're finding some common ground today.


There is no Delta vaccine.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is no Delta vaccine.


Was it Beta?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

watfly said:


> I don't expect you to give her opinion any consideration. It's not within your life paradigm to understand it. Just like its not within my paradigm to understand putting the pandemic burdens on children.
> 
> However, it represents how many of us that don't live in an academic bubble, but live in a world where we have to make cost/benefit and risk based opinions on a daily basis, feel regarding Fauci. Are we right? Depends on your perspective. It's right for us, but obviously not right for you.


We knew from HARD data about 2 months in the young people had no risk. Data clearly showed that. And yet parks and schools were closed.

For them to say now, ok we were wrong isn't ok. The data was clear and yet they ignored it.

We have known from other disease that natural immunity works. And yet many here and most of the decisions makers ignored the obvious.


dad4 said:


> We had early indications that gyms were risky and outdoors was safe. But it took almost a year to open up the parks.


You were right up there with the people advocating closures for kids, etc. Try not to soft pedal today how wrong you were back then. All one has to do is go back and look and your doom posts about everything. You were very confident colleges having students was a bad idea. That despite the data telling us that age group has no risk. 

For someone who claims to be a math guy you had/have  a lot of trouble interpreting data and coming up with the proper response.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Was it Beta?


Original.  The very first thing they sequenced, back before they started naming variants at all.

About 32 months old by now.   

Glad they are finally releasing a new vaccine this fall.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> We knew from HARD data about 2 months in the young people had no risk. Data clearly showed that. And yet parks and schools were closed.
> 
> For them to say now, ok we were wrong isn't ok. The data was clear and yet they ignored it.
> 
> We have known from other disease that natural immunity works. And yet many here and most of the decisions makers ignored the obvious.
> 
> You were right up there with the people advocating closures for kids, etc. Try not to soft pedal today how wrong you were back then. All one has to do is go back and look and your doom posts about everything. You were very confident colleges having students was a bad idea. That despite the data telling us that age group has no risk.
> 
> For someone who claims to be a math guy you had/have  a lot of trouble interpreting data and coming up with the proper response.


Huh.  You were around back then?  What user name, amigo?


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> We knew from HARD data about 2 months in the young people had no risk. Data clearly showed that. And yet parks and schools were closed.
> 
> For them to say now, ok we were wrong isn't ok. The data was clear and yet they ignored it.
> 
> We have known from other disease that natural immunity works. And yet many here and most of the decisions makers ignored the obvious.
> 
> You were right up there with the people advocating closures for kids, etc. Try not to soft pedal today how wrong you were back then. All one has to do is go back and look and your doom posts about everything. You were very confident colleges having students was a bad idea. That despite the data telling us that age group has no risk.
> 
> For someone who claims to be a math guy you had/have  a lot of trouble interpreting data and coming up with the proper response.


Pollo, welcome to the forum btw. I see you have read up on Dad.  Dad wanted me to jab or leave the State and lose everything I have ever worked for. They stole people's jobs, careers, businesses and stole kids life for 2 and 1/2 years.  They went all in and will have hell to pay for their evil deeds. Karma is very real!!!


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Pollo, welcome to the forum btw. I see you have read up on Dad.  Dad wanted me to jab or leave the State and lose everything I have ever worked for. They stole people's jobs, careers, businesses and stole kids life for 2 and 1/2 years.  They went all in and will have hell to pay for their evil deeds. Karma is very real!!!


Uh, what exactly have you worked for again?  Last time I checked, you'd been unemployed for pretty much forever and were living out of a van, right?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> Huh.  You were around back then?  What user name, amigo?


DH.

I am on another system during the day and didnt want to reset my password (forgot my login). So just created another one.

But yeah...you refused to look at the data. Young people had/have no risk. You didnt act that way.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> DH.
> 
> I am on another system during the day and didnt want to reset my password (forgot my login). So just created another one.


Oh my gosh, thanks for being honest, open and transparent Hound with the group. I did not want to go there and make the guess myself but I was 100% right with my gut. Now let's see if others fess up. I might bring out New Wave Dave to celebrate openness...lol


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> DH.
> 
> I am on another system during the day and didnt want to reset my password (forgot my login). So just created another one.
> 
> But yeah...you refused to look at the data. Young people had/have no risk. You didnt act that way.


Got it.  Hound never was able to tell the difference between individual risk and risk of community spread.  

Still making that same mistake, I see.


----------



## espola

Pollo Elastico said:


> DH.
> 
> I am on another system during the day and didnt want to reset my password (forgot my login). So just created another one.
> 
> But yeah...you refused to look at the data. Young people had/have no risk. You didnt act that way.


I thought that bullshit sounded familiar.


----------



## crush

*Jab or no school for your kid. Insane tactics to get kids to obey. No jab, no college ball for you and no FREE education. *


----------



## crush

Breaking News from Alberta: Unknown cause of death is the now #1 cause of death in Canada, which the cause is still unknown at this time. It beats heart attack, obesity and stroke combined, go figure.  I think "Died of Natural Causes" will be #2 soon.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

espola said:


> I thought that bullshit sounded familiar.


The BS is what the likes of you 2 foisted upon us. 

Notice how as time goes on the reporting, the gov agencies, etc are all basically saying that yeah our guidance was wrong? 

What you are not seeing is a confirmation of...yep those policies worked. 

Well over a year ago when talking natural immunity you guys scoffed at that notion. Today? Natural immunity works (as was always known). 

Closing schools? Many of us knew it was wrong, would harm kids and wouldn't change the trajectory of the virus. Today there is a growing realization that yeah closing schools was terribly wrong. 

ETC etc.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> The BS is what the likes of you 2 foisted upon us.
> 
> Notice how as time goes on the reporting, the gov agencies, etc are all basically saying that yeah our guidance was wrong?
> 
> What you are not seeing is a confirmation of...yep those policies worked.
> 
> Well over a year ago when talking natural immunity you guys scoffed at that notion. Today? Natural immunity works (as was always known).
> 
> Closing schools? Many of us knew it was wrong, would harm kids and wouldn't change the trajectory of the virus. Today there is a growing realization that yeah closing schools was terribly wrong.
> 
> ETC etc.


I am all Natural bro and I feel so good inside. No meat for 3 years. No booze.  No jabs.  No mask. No Covid 19 and a very strong immune system. The best decision I ever made in my life. My buddy told me the other day he should have listen to me. He get's sick all the time and can't shake the Rona. 4+ shots and will just take them all because he said he's all in.


----------



## espola

Pollo Elastico said:


> The BS is what the likes of you 2 foisted upon us.
> 
> Notice how as time goes on the reporting, the gov agencies, etc are all basically saying that yeah our guidance was wrong?
> 
> What you are not seeing is a confirmation of...yep those policies worked.
> 
> Well over a year ago when talking natural immunity you guys scoffed at that notion. Today? Natural immunity works (as was always known).
> 
> Closing schools? Many of us knew it was wrong, would harm kids and wouldn't change the trajectory of the virus. Today there is a growing realization that yeah closing schools was terribly wrong.
> 
> ETC etc.


I wasn't really referring to the vaccine thread.  It was obvious from the first PE post that it was an existing poster hiding out behind a new secret identity because the old one had lost all credibility.  Add to that the lame lie about a forgotten password.


----------



## crush

Hey Hound Dog, this is what they told everyone about me when I switched over to Soccerhelper and New Wave Dave. He and his crew got all mad and said I did it because EJ lost all credibility. These guys are all the same and many are Docs in soccer business.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

espola said:


> I wasn't really referring to the vaccine thread.  It was obvious from the first PE post that it was an existing poster hiding out behind a new secret identity because the old one had lost all credibility.  Add to that the lame lie about a forgotten password.


I was so careful about hiding that when someone asked if I have been on here before I gave them the other name.

Pretty devious on my part right?

Your idea of credibility is someone who doesn't automatically believe everything the gov says. Or tells you that the J6 hearings were a political dog and pony show. Stuff like that.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Original.  The very first thing they sequenced, back before they started naming variants at all.
> 
> About 32 months old by now.
> 
> Glad they are finally releasing a new vaccine this fall.


Ahh, the new vacccine..  You really can't wait for it?  Bivalent vaccines are pretty cool and not new.  This one...very new....and if you decide to partake you would be sitting shoulder to shoulder with mice.  Not much data out there on the efficacy on humans.  But why not, have at it..

Of course, you are only elegible for the booster IF you've already taken a complete cycle.  Newbies won't be allowed.. You have to go and get the old vaccines that kinda works.  Also notice age elegibility...

Anyway, these things should be hitting the street by labor day...I can't wait for the doom and gloom fall/winter of death marketing themes that will accompany the booster.   Fun times.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> I was so careful about hiding that when someone asked if I have been on here before I gave them the other name.
> 
> Pretty devious on my part right?
> 
> Your idea of credibility is someone who doesn't automatically believe everything the gov says. Or tells you that the J6 hearings were a political dog and pony show. Stuff like that.


He's excited about Trump getting indicted and arrested so he can't control himself today. I have a dear friend just like the two on here and he's is banking on t getting put away forever. t will get indicted for show and to piss off those sitting on the fence and they will get off their fence finally. I know some think of t as an asshole but assholes don't deserve to go to jail just because their rich and their assholes. Q predicted all this would happen. "Unseal" "The first arrest will shock the world" and "The arrest will wake up the world."


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> Ahh, the new vacccine..  You really can't wait for it?  Bivalent vaccines are pretty cool and not new.  This one...very new....and if you decide to partake you would be sitting shoulder to shoulder with mice.  Not much data out there on the efficacy on humans.  But why not, have at it..
> 
> Of course, you are only elegible for the booster IF you've already taken a complete cycle.  Newbies won't be allowed.. You have to go and get the old vaccines that kinda works.  Also notice age elegibility...
> 
> Anyway, these things should be hitting the street by labor day...I can't wait for the doom and gloom fall/winter of death marketing themes that will accompany the booster.   Fun times.


This is not fun but I get your point.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> I was so careful about hiding that when someone asked if I have been on here before I gave them the other name.
> 
> Pretty devious on my part right?
> 
> Your idea of credibility is someone who doesn't automatically believe everything the gov says. Or tells you that the J6 hearings were a political dog and pony show. Stuff like that.


When did I call you devious?

I did say that you really have trouble understanding the difference between risk to the individual, and risk to the community as a whole.  That one is accurate.  

It also makes it a little pointless to continue the conversation.  I can explain 27 times that my main concern is that high levels of covid in community will lead to more cases and deaths among the (much smaller) vulnerable population.  It just goes in one ear and out the other.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Happened again said:


> .and if you decide to partake you would be sitting shoulder to shoulder with mice.  Not much data out there on the efficacy on humans.











						Phase 3 Boosting Study for the SARS-CoV-2 rS Variant Vaccines - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
					

Phase 3 Boosting Study for the SARS-CoV-2 rS Variant Vaccines - Full Text View.




					clinicaltrials.gov
				



Unblinded in July.  Not mice.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

watfly said:


> You know that Fauci got his ass kicked on the playground on a regular basis.


I should probably let the FDS ride off into the sunset with your perceptions intact...but....well, no.

Brookyln immigrant kid, by accounts a pretty good high school point guard. Even Trump mentioned it. Marathoner in the 1970's.  And, from what I've been told competitive as hell.  Like when he bitch slaps Ron Paul around, you can tell he's into it.  So I don't think he started fights on the schoolyard, but I'd bet he didn't run away from them either.


----------



## EvilGoalie 21

Bruddah IZ said:


> That cherry picking season ended in July.


Well if that's all not to worry.  Next summer will be here before you know it and you'll be back in business.  The pits, the stains and the squirts.  Good eating, but if you're going to jump the fence just make sure they don't spray with paraquat. Nasty stuff.


----------



## crush

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I should probably let the FDS ride off into the sunset with your perceptions intact...but....well, no.
> 
> Brookyln immigrant kid, by accounts a pretty good high school point guard. Even Trump mentioned it. Marathoner in the 1970's.  And, from what I've been told competitive as hell.  Like when he bitch slaps Ron Paul around, you can tell he's into it.  So I don't think he started fights on the schoolyard, but I'd bet he didn't run away from them either.


He was Captain of the Nerd Team Evil.......lol!


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Well if that's all not to worry.  Next summer will be here before you know it and you'll be back in business.  The pits, the stains and the squirts.  Good eating, but if you're going to jump the fence just make sure they don't spray with paraquat. Nasty stuff.


Iʻll wear a mask.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Next Tuesday at midnight is the year’s legislative deadline. Any bill that hasn’t passed by then is dead, so the next few days are make-or-break for the ghastly "Vaccine Work Group" package. 

For months we’ve spoken out and fought back. We’ve rallied and organized. We’ve marshalled evidence and appealed to reason. And we killed the worst bills: a K-12 child vaccine mandate, a universal workplace mandate, and a measure to coerce police into enforcing mandates.

A fourth bill in the worst-of-the-worst category remains stalled. SB 866 would remove parent consent for 15-year-olds to be vaccinated. I spent 19 minutes interrogating the bill’s author in committee and am ready to speak against it on the Assembly Floor.

*Three other Work Group bills await a final vote: AB 2098 to go after physicians for COVID "misinformation," SB 1018 to enable more censorship on social media, and AB 1797 relating to the "immunization registry."* 

Unfortunately the COVID testing bill, which I spoke against, has already passed. But the fight isn't over. Newsom has until the end of September to sign or veto it. And while he can never be trusted to do the right thing, we can create pressure to force his hand.

That’s how we got him to withdraw his K-12 student mandate. That’s how we got him to end the school mask mandate. And just two days ago, that’s how we got him to veto a bill that would have opened legal drug "injection sites" in our cities.

We still have work to do. But this year at the State Capitol could have been a lot worse.​


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Dr. Peter McCullough calls out ‘safety disaster’ surrounding the Covid vaccine
					

Dr. Peter McCullough joins Dr. Gina to discuss the large numbers of deaths occurring after the Covid vaccine was given: “People know now that the vaccines cause injuries, disabilities, and death.” Wat




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Follow the Science? WTF is going on here folks? Can you see or are you blind? Can you hear or are you deaf? Look at what the cheaters, liars and thieves have done to us.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> When did I call you devious?


That was in response to espwela


dad4 said:


> It also makes it a little pointless to continue the conversation. I can explain 27 times that my main concern is that high levels of covid in community will lead to more cases and deaths among the (much smaller) vulnerable population. It just goes in one ear and out the other.


And as shown around the world, the measure enacted did nothing to stop the spread. 

The only thing the measures did was to devastate many small biz, put people out of work, do serious damage to education for kids, launch inflation, etc. They were never going to stop the spread. That is the issue you cannot get your head around. All those measures did nothing to stop the spread, but did inflict harm that will be felt for years to come.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> That was in response to espwela
> 
> And as shown around the world, the measure enacted did nothing to stop the spread.
> 
> The only thing the measures did was to devastate many small biz, put people out of work, do serious damage to education for kids, launch inflation, etc. They were never going to stop the spread. That is the issue you cannot get your head around. All those measures did nothing to stop the spread, but did inflict harm that will be felt for years to come.


Dad was for people like crush to lose it all and he will fall on his daddy sword to the end. My buddy has cousin who is ER Doc. He is working long long hours but has tripled his pay from 2019 pay. My other buddy wife is Big Pharma Sales Lady and she will double her income from $250,000 to making over $500,000 in 2022. Overtime and bonuses bro. My pal does recruiting and he is killing it the health industry. My other pal is a teacher and is fully jabbed and teaches whatever he is told to teach. He is waiting for 5 more years to retire but will retire with blood thinner as trade off. Then we have the losers on the other side who said no to Dads mandates. They lost their job. They lost their business they worked so hard to build. They lost their freedom. They lost loved one's who died because of what dad and his crew put on us because they hate t. The winners in this old game of life have been bought and bribed and those in high positions have been blackmailed. When the tables are turned, the winners will be shown to be the losers and the losers will be the winners.


----------



## watfly

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I should probably let the FDS ride off into the sunset with your perceptions intact...but....well, no.
> 
> Brookyln immigrant kid, by accounts a pretty good high school point guard. Even Trump mentioned it. Marathoner in the 1970's.  And, from what I've been told competitive as hell.  Like when he bitch slaps Ron Paul around, you can tell he's into it.  So I don't think he started fights on the schoolyard, but I'd bet he didn't run away from them either.


Well that was sarcasm on my part, but the chip he has on his shoulder came from somewhere.  How arrogant do you have to be to claim that you are science?  Funny you think he bitched slapped Paul, while Paul is not my favorite politician and you could argue his tone, he easily pierced Fauci's thin skin.  He definitely hit a nerve and Fauci refused to answer the legitimate questions (or straight up lied) and instead lashed out at the congressman.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  I don't doubt that Fauci is maybe a great researcher, but he's a horrible policy maker and spokesperson.  Repeating myself, I was OK with him having a seat at the table he just should have never been driving the bus.  He should have never been let out of this lane.  What he allowed to happen to our kids is unforgiveable.

Like I said I was a fan of Fauci's and even defended him after several mistakes rationalizing that he made decisions in good faith, but was just naive. (Ask GraceT).  Unfortunately, he let the power get to him and he "jumped the shark".  But again we are both shaped by our paradigms and the scientific community is very good at "circling the wagons".


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Well that was sarcasm on my part, but the chip he has on his shoulder came from somewhere.  How arrogant do you have to be to claim that you are science?  Funny you think he bitched slapped Paul, while Paul is not my favorite politician and you could argue his tone, he easily pierced Fauci's thin skin.  He definitely hit a nerve and Fauci refused to answer the legitimate questions (or straight up lied) and instead lashed out at the congressman.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  I don't doubt that Fauci is maybe a great researcher, but he's a horrible policy maker and spokesperson.  Repeating myself, I was OK with him having a seat at the table he just should have never been driving the bus.  He should have never been let out of this lane.  What he allowed to happen to our kids is unforgiveable.
> 
> Like I said I was a fan of Fauci's and even defended him after several mistakes rationalizing that he made decisions in good faith, but was just naive. (Ask GraceT).  Unfortunately, he let the power get to him and he "jumped the shark".  But again we are both shaped by our paradigms and the scientific community is very good at "circling the wagons".


If Fauci had retired in 2020, t would have appointed a loyalist to replace him and we would have seen hundreds overdosing on hydroxychloroquine.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Well that was sarcasm on my part, but the chip he has on his shoulder came from somewhere.  How arrogant do you have to be to claim that you are science?  Funny you think he bitched slapped Paul, while Paul is not my favorite politician and you could argue his tone, he easily pierced Fauci's thin skin.  He definitely hit a nerve and Fauci refused to answer the legitimate questions (or straight up lied) and instead lashed out at the congressman.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  I don't doubt that Fauci is maybe a great researcher, but he's a horrible policy maker and spokesperson.  Repeating myself, I was OK with him having a seat at the table he just should have never been driving the bus.  He should have never been let out of this lane.  What he allowed to happen to our kids is unforgiveable.
> 
> Like I said I was a fan of Fauci's and even defended him after several mistakes rationalizing that he made decisions in good faith, but was just naive. (Ask GraceT).  Unfortunately, he let the power get to him and he "jumped the shark".  But again we are both shaped by our paradigms and the scientific community is very good at "circling the wagons".


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> “If………”


The rest is nonsense.  As usual.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> If Fauci had retired in 2020, t would have appointed a loyalist to replace him and we would have seen hundreds overdosing on hydroxychloroquine.


Really?  With all those blind Trump worshippers how many actual overdoses were there?  Correct me if I'm wrong but the most publicized one turned out to be a poisoning by the spouse.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> View attachment 14700


Red bricks arenʻt in style.  Good match for Bozo thoʻ


----------



## espola

Reply


watfly said:


> Really?  With all those blind Trump worshippers how many actual overdoses were there?  Correct me if I'm wrong but the most publicized one turned out to be a poisoning by the spouse.


Nice sidetrack, but not responsive.


----------



## Happened again

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Phase 3 Boosting Study for the SARS-CoV-2 rS Variant Vaccines - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
> 
> 
> Phase 3 Boosting Study for the SARS-CoV-2 rS Variant Vaccines - Full Text View.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clinicaltrials.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unblinded in July.  Not mice.


NVX.  The main players? not so much but they have submitted to the fda for eua anyway.  And again, the fda has decided to conduct it's review without consulting it's advisory committe...again.  

 to recap:  pfizer and moderna are pushing for eua without conducting trials on humans.  To me that's a bit off putting.  even a small human trial to measure antibody levels would be helpful..don't you think?  Becuase we have so much trust right now in entire vaccine development community. 

I mean, boosting people then  measuring levels 2 weeks later would be beneficial...and maybe more impotant, gain more trust.  We've been down this road before.  The vaccine was the panacea until it wasn't.  Are we doing the same with boosters? Here, take this, we don't know if it will work, we haven't really tried it except on small mammals..  Who's in charge? oh yea, pfizer/moderna are in charge.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> If Fauci had retired in 2020, t would have appointed a loyalist to replace him and we would have seen hundreds overdosing on hydroxychloroquine.


wut? OD on Hydroxy?  Are you nuts.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> wut? OD on Hydroxy?  Are you nuts.


Click on "Precautions" --




__





						Hydroxychloroquine Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
					

Find patient medical information for hydroxychloroquine oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Click on "Precautions" --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
> 
> 
> Find patient medical information for hydroxychloroquine oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


As long as it doesn't cause anal leakage or an erection lasting 4 hours, I'd take it.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> As long as it doesn't cause anal leakage or an erection lasting 4 hours, I'd take it.


 Interesting to see what symptoms concern you.

On our Westpac Cruise on the Enterprise 74-75, part of the routine in tropical climates (most of the cruise, actually) was a corpsman handing out pills similar to synthetic quinine once a week on the mess decks as a malaria preventive.  That once-a-week dose was strong enough that I was disqualified from donating blood for about 2 years after returning Stateside.


----------



## watfly

espola said:


> Interesting to see what symptoms concern you.


We all have our irrational fears, for others it was Covid.



espola said:


> That once-a-week dose was strong enough that I was disqualified from donating blood for about 2 years after returning Stateside.


Are sure you that was the reason?


----------



## crush




----------



## espola

watfly said:


> We all have our irrational fears, for others it was Covid.
> 
> 
> Are sure you that was the reason?


The question on the donor form concerned anti-malarial drugs.


----------



## crush

Who does Dee remind you of from the forum avatars? Pick one or PM me if your just lurking......lol I have my pick but will wait to hear from my forum family. 

*"ATTENTION QANON, MAGAT FASCISTS: Every time you sing "We're Not Gonna Take It" remember it was written by a cross-dressing, libtard, tree hugging half-Jew who HATES everything you stand for. It was you and people like you that inspired every angry word of that song! SO FUCK OFF!"* Dee


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Click on "Precautions" --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
> 
> 
> Find patient medical information for hydroxychloroquine oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


get a grip dude.We can go down this same road for everything.  Hopefully you are aware of how dangerous ibuprofen can be if you have covid.  stay away.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> get a grip dude.We can go down this same road for everything.  Hopefully you are aware of how dangerous ibuprofen can be if you have covid.  stay away.


You are evading the point that since Fauci stayed in office we didn't have to deal with any of this.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Interesting to see what symptoms concern you.
> 
> On our Westpac Cruise on the Enterprise 74-75, part of the routine in tropical climates (most of the cruise, actually) was a corpsman handing out pills similar to synthetic quinine once a week on the mess decks as a malaria preventive.  That once-a-week dose was strong enough that I was disqualified from donating blood for about 2 years after returning Stateside.


that was 1975.  I can assure you that is not how it works now.  Unless you've had malaria, have been treated for malaria, the wait is 3 monhts if you've been in a country persistent with malarais.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You are evading the point that since Fauci stayed in office we didn't have to deal with any of this.


oh gawd...you are hopeless.  lord fauci was generally useless after day 10 of the "pandemic".  Thank goodness fauci was able to singlehandedly fend off a HC overdose epidemic?  lord fauci needs to be hired to end the fentanyl epidemic.  let's put him on the case.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> oh gawd...you are hopeless.  lord fauci was generally useless after day 10 of the "pandemic".  Thank goodness fauci was able to singlehandedly fend off a HC overdose epidemic?  lord fauci needs to be hired to end the fentanyl epidemic.  let's put him on the case.


I see you searching for a rational viewpoint but just coming out coocoo.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*"...[COVID] was supposed to be the biggest pandemic of the last half century. And what we're finding out while we uncover Fauci's lies is it was just the opposite, in large part because of the false information that Fauci was responsible to put out facts, was putting out politics to appease leadership and the media…. Fauci has been one of the most destructive people in government."  *Kash Patel


----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> I see you searching for a rational viewpoint but just coming out coocoo.


got it...but please elaborate on anything of substance beyond shallow politcial rhetoric.  Be careful with the ibuprofen though, it could be harmful.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> got it...but please elaborate on anything of substance beyond shallow politcial rhetoric.  Be careful with the ibuprofen though, it could be harmful.


"Something of substance" such as this?

"lord fauci was generally useless after day 10 of the "pandemic". Thank goodness fauci was able to singlehandedly fend off a HC overdose epidemic? lord fauci needs to be hired to end the fentanyl epidemic. let's put him on the case."


----------



## crush




----------



## Bruddah IZ

Newsom has started a new video series attacking Republicans. He’s calling it, "Hypocrite or Fraud?"

This is the Governor who dined at the French Laundry while locking us down, sent his kids to in-person private school while closing public schools, and vacationed in Montana despite an official red state travel ban.

Newsom’s recent antics have gone from over-the-top to beyond-the-pale. After running delusional ads on Florida TV, he's giving $100,000 to the opponent of Ron DeSantis. He's sounding off daily on the Governor of Texas. He bizarrely picked a fight with Alabama’s Governor.

And last Friday he again called California a "model for the nation," this time on homelessness. Newsom has increased homelessness spending by a factor of 28 – now $14 billion – while the homeless population has ballooned. Yet he just blocked my proposal for a statewide homelessness spending audit once again.

Meanwhile, Californians are being told to shorten their showers, stop watering their lawns, turn off their lights, and shut down their AC. This is Newsom’s model for the nation.

We have a very different model for the nation. It’s the model that created this nation – one with freedom at its foundation. It’s the model by which dozens of pro-parent school board candidates swept to victory in Florida last week.

The choice between these two models – lockdowns, control, decay; or freedom, self-government, prosperity – is on the ballot this year. As Californians, we've experienced the worst of the first model. We have a unique role in making sure America chooses the second.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> "Something of substance" such as this?
> 
> "lord fauci was generally useless after day 10 of the "pandemic". Thank goodness fauci was able to singlehandedly fend off a HC overdose epidemic? lord fauci needs to be hired to end the fentanyl epidemic. let's put him on the case."


just because it hurts your feelings doesn't mean it lacks substance.  You opined, I opined...and your feelings were hurt.  Maybe some ibuprofen would have helped?  be careful though, it can be dangerous.  You barely remember the "science" aspects of the commentary.  Your opinion is that fauci saved us, my opinion is he underperformed - which is somewhat suprising.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> just because it hurts your feelings doesn't mean it lacks substance.  You opined, I opined...and your feelings were hurt.  Maybe some ibuprofen would have helped?  be careful though, it can be dangerous.  You barely remember the "science" aspects of the commentary.  Your opinion is that fauci saved us, my opinion is he underperformed - which is somewhat suprising.


I wrote a humorous aside about HCQ and you seem to be willing to go to the grave with your response.  So whose feelings were hurt here?

Allow me to offer another thought -- you were offended that not everyone joined in your graceless Fauci-bashing party.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I wrote a humorous aside about HCQ and you seem to be willing to go to the grave with your response.  So whose feelings were hurt here?
> 
> Allow me to offer another thought -- you were offended that not everyone joined in your graceless Fauci-bashing party.


That was classic.  Need some tissue?


----------



## Speed

Bruddah IZ said:


> Newsom has started a new video series attacking Republicans. He’s calling it, "Hypocrite or Fraud?"
> 
> This is the Governor who dined at the French Laundry while locking us down, sent his kids to in-person private school while closing public schools, and vacationed in Montana despite an official red state travel ban.
> 
> Newsom’s recent antics have gone from over-the-top to beyond-the-pale. After running delusional ads on Florida TV, he's giving $100,000 to the opponent of Ron DeSantis. He's sounding off daily on the Governor of Texas. He bizarrely picked a fight with Alabama’s Governor.
> 
> And last Friday he again called California a "model for the nation," this time on homelessness. Newsom has increased homelessness spending by a factor of 28 – now $14 billion – while the homeless population has ballooned. Yet he just blocked my proposal for a statewide homelessness spending audit once again.
> 
> Meanwhile, Californians are being told to shorten their showers, stop watering their lawns, turn off their lights, and shut down their AC. This is Newsom’s model for the nation.
> 
> We have a very different model for the nation. It’s the model that created this nation – one with freedom at its foundation. It’s the model by which dozens of pro-parent school board candidates swept to victory in Florida last week.
> 
> The choice between these two models – lockdowns, control, decay; or freedom, self-government, prosperity – is on the ballot this year. As Californians, we've experienced the worst of the first model. We have a unique role in making sure America chooses the second.


kevin kiley has been the only rational one in this whole fiasco in this state


----------



## Speed

Speed said:


> kevin kiley has been the only rational one in this whole fiasco in this state


actually few others but the main leaders have been the parents. Certainly not the politicians


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> I wrote a humorous aside about HCQ and you seem to be willing to go to the grave with your response.  So whose feelings were hurt here?
> 
> Allow me to offer another thought -- you were offended that not everyone joined in your graceless Fauci-bashing party.


oh lawd, now you are rising above the fray - luv it.  fauci deserves to bashed, his unprofessionlism is beyond reproach.  must be nice from your perch.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> oh lawd, now you are rising above the fray - luv it.  fauci deserves to bashed, his unprofessionlism is beyond reproach.  must be nice from your perch.


Poor baby!


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> I wrote a humorous aside


Guilty as charged.  

All internet trolls see their product this way… I laugh at my own works similarly, but with self awareness.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> oh lawd, now you are rising above the fray - luv it.  fauci deserves to bashed, his unprofessionlism is beyond reproach.  must be nice from your perch.


Chirp Chirp!!!


----------



## crush

I mean, let's get real folks. The last 6 years we have been living in a Ground Hog "TDS" Day and Twilight Zone all mixed together every day. It's sad we had to suffer all together because some hate t and what the t stands for.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Poor baby!


you are a crack up - a dollar for every trumpy tear you shed.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> you are a crack up - a dollar for every trumpy tear you shed.


Oh sweetie, TDS is real. Oh lordie and oh gawd, some people are stuck on hating t they are willing to cheat, lie and steal. Amazing. I hope all is well with your hubby what happened. HOT this week everywhere!!!


----------



## GoldenGate

crush said:


> Oh sweetie, TDS is real. Oh lordie and oh gawd, some people are stuck on hating t they are willing to cheat, lie and steal. Amazing. I hope all is well with your hubby what happened. HOT this week everywhere!!!


When are you going to start looking for a job so you can support your family?


----------



## crush

Oh Lord, 70% of all teachers in LA want to quit. The stress is hard and them and I know because I see it on a few friends META screens. My buddy has 5 more years until retire but might just take early retire deal next year and just go move to AZ or TX. He might do FL. The stress is taking a toll on everyone. My wife's friend who got fired for saying no, got a new job in Fl and is super stoked. She posted on FB that living in FL is like a different country then CA.


----------



## watfly

Speed said:


> actually few others but the main leaders have been the parents. Certainly not the politicians











						How Some Parents Changed Their Politics in the Pandemic
					

They were once Democrats and Republicans. But fears for their children in the pandemic transformed their thinking, turning them into single-issue voters for November’s midterms.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> How Some Parents Changed Their Politics in the Pandemic
> 
> 
> They were once Democrats and Republicans. But fears for their children in the pandemic transformed their thinking, turning them into single-issue voters for November’s midterms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


I have dear pal, who is a far left lefty liberal and he hate t with a passion. He thinks t worse than any asshole watty. Anyway, dude is now for Truth and he now is on the side of t 100%. He is more of a Libertarian I guess and told me he will never go back to the Dems and one party only or else. I'm proud of him. It took him forever to see the Truth.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> Newsom has started a new video series attacking Republicans. He’s calling it, "Hypocrite or Fraud?"
> 
> This is the Governor who dined at the French Laundry while locking us down, sent his kids to in-person private school while closing public schools, and vacationed in Montana despite an official red state travel ban.


To be fair, it's only precise for him if he calls it, "Hypocrite and Fraud".

Seriously, though, how out of touch does one need to be to think this was a good idea?


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> To be fair, it's only precise for him if he calls it, "Hypocrite and Fraud".
> 
> Seriously, though, how out of touch does one need to be to think this was a good idea?


He's got his eye on the price, the Presidency, and nothing will get in his way, certainly not facts.  He knows no shame which seems to be an inherent Presidential characteristic the last few administrations.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> He's got his eye on the price, the Presidency, and nothing will get in his way, certainly not facts.  He knows no shame which seems to be an inherent Presidential characteristic the last few administrations.


A signature on this bill will be telling as to aspirations.



			https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article265047939.html


----------



## watfly

N00B said:


> A signature on this bill will be telling as to aspirations.
> 
> 
> 
> https://amp.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article265047939.html


Crazy.  Credit to him if he doesn't sign it.


----------



## N00B

watfly said:


> Crazy.  Credit to him if he doesn't sign it.


Agreed.  I liked the non-signature on the injection site issue as well.  Unfortunately, that’s most likely due to his national aspirations.


----------



## N00B

Back to the vaccine topic… why is there still a state of emergency in CA?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

N00B said:


> Back to the vaccine topic… why is there still a state of emergency in CA?


Lust for Power >> Science


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Lust for Power >> Science


Yes brother, these lustful monsters have a lust for power unlike anything we have ever seen. Just wait until you find out where they get their real power from. The plan for you and your kids are simple plans bruh and all you have to do is obey them & STFU, take all the jabs, wear mask when told, eat bugs, eat Bills Beyond Meat Cheese Burgers and own nothing and if you obey all this, they say you will be happy


----------



## Kicker 2.0

N00B said:


> Back to the vaccine topic… why is there still a state of emergency in CA?


Same reason Biden is using a Covid era Act to pay off  10k of Student Debt.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Same reason Biden is using a Covid era Act to pay off  10k of Student Debt.


Did they try to have the will of the American people ignored? Did they try to coerce people into changing electors? Did they steal secret documents? What have the done wrong? Did they do it for personal reasons or to protect people? Maybe all the secrets will be revealed when Putin’s military finds Hunter Biden’s laptop!


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did they try to have the will of the American people ignored?


For stuff like the student debt, that should go through the legislative process. House, Senate and then to the Prez if both houses pass it. 

Here Biden just decreed that he would cancel 300-500 billion in debt? 

It isn't good. It sets a bad precedent and this will lead to further decisions done without the legislative process in the future be it left or right. Once you break the norms and rules, bad things will happen in the future.


----------



## watfly

Pollo Elastico said:


> For stuff like the student debt, that should go through the legislative process. House, Senate and then to the Prez if both houses pass it.
> 
> Here Biden just decreed that he would cancel 300-500 billion in debt?
> 
> It isn't good. It sets a bad precedent and this will lead to further decisions done without the legislative process in the future be it left or right. Once you break the norms and rules, bad things will happen in the future.


Congress would probably want to know how much it was going to cost before approving the spending.  The cost is apparently meaningless to Biden. It's terrible policy and does nothing to fix the "root problem" of excessive tuition costs.  Not to mention its inflationary.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Congress would probably want to know how much it was going to cost before approving the spending.  The cost is apparently meaningless to Biden. It's terrible policy and does nothing to fix the "root problem" of excessive tuition costs.  Not to mention its inflationary.


There is a long line of presidents spending money without congressional authorization.  

Reagan's support of Contras and Trump's wall come to mind.

Not saying one justified the other.  Just annoyed by the practice no matter who does it.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is a long line of presidents spending money without congressional authorization.
> 
> Reagan's support of Contras and Trump's wall come to mind.
> 
> Not saying one justified the other.  Just annoyed by the practice no matter who does it.y


It's just harder to swallow when it exacerbates a problem and doesn't help to fix it.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> There is a long line of presidents spending money without congressional authorization.
> 
> Reagan's support of Contras and Trump's wall come to mind.
> 
> Not saying one justified the other.  Just annoyed by the practice no matter who does it.


It has gotten worse over time. 

And if this isnt stopped you will see increasingly large (financially, etc. EOs come about). 

This one appears to be outside of his powers. So MAYBE it gets overturned in the courts. But one never knows.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> It's just harder to swallow when it exacerbates a problem and doesn't help to fix it.


You mean like the wall?


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> You mean like the wall?


What’s the problem that is exacerbating?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's just harder to swallow when it exacerbates a problem and doesn't help to fix it.


Depends on whether you think the problem is the debt or the worthless degree.

I see both as problems.  As a first step, it’s not horrible.  That is, if there were a second step.   Unfortunately, I don’t see any willingness to deal with the useless degree problem.  We’re dealing with the result, but not the cause.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Depends on whether you think the problem is the debt or the worthless degree.
> 
> I see both as problems.  As a first step, it’s not horrible.  That is, if there were a second step.   Unfortunately, I don’t see any willingness to deal with the useless degree problem.  We’re dealing with the result, but not the cause.


Worthless?  Useless? Some of the biggest student loan debts were acquired while attending medical school.  And a $10k rollback wouldn't really wipe out a $200k debt.









						It’s not a cure-all, but Biden’s debt relief aids medical students, residents
					

The president’s initiative only covers a portion of the average debt of medical school, but the Association of American Medical Colleges says it still does some good.



					www.chiefhealthcareexecutive.com


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Depends on whether you think the problem is the debt or the worthless degree.
> 
> I see both as problems.  As a first step, it’s not horrible.  That is, if there were a second step.   Unfortunately, I don’t see any willingness to deal with the useless degree problem.  We’re dealing with the result, but not the cause.


I'm not really offended by the worthless degrees, although I probably could get behind a program to incentivize marketable degrees where we have a shortfall of employees.  It's the cost that offends me.   Many of these universities are sitting on enormous endowments that could be used to offset the cost of tuition to some extent.  The Biden handout does nothing to address the problem and potentially makes the problem worse, it certainly won't help inflation.  This is a straight up handout and an indirect handout to the academic institutions.  Shiny new buildings are nice but an affordable education is nicer.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did they try to have the will of the American people ignored? Did they try to coerce people into changing electors? Did they steal secret documents? What have the done wrong? Did they do it for personal reasons or to protect people? Maybe all the secrets will be revealed when Putin’s military finds Hunter Biden’s laptop!


nahhh, those are just small things...."they" are going to approve bivalent boosters tested only on  mice.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> You mean like the wall?


so a wall wouldn't work?


----------



## Brav520

dad4 said:


> Depends on whether you think the problem is the debt or the worthless degree.
> 
> I see both as problems.  As a first step, it’s not horrible.  That is, if there were a second step.   Unfortunately, I don’t see any willingness to deal with the useless degree problem.  We’re dealing with the result, but not the cause.


the problem probably first  starts with the cost of college

but no one wants to address that


----------



## Brav520

Happened again said:


> so a wall wouldn't work?


don’t go down this rabbit hole with a lefty , it’s a sidetrack

should the border be protected is the question


----------



## Grace T.

Brav520 said:


> the problem probably first  starts with the cost of college
> 
> but no one wants to address that


part of the cost of college is the non money making sports such as soccer (which exists on the boys end too even before you get to Title IX)...which in turn feeds the pay or play system that we have.....


SEE! This thread has finally gone full circle


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> part of the cost of college is the non money making sports such as soccer (which exists on the boys end too even before you get to Title IX)...which in turn feeds the pay or play system that we have.....
> 
> 
> SEE! This thread has finally gone full circle


"Full circle" would include you updating your crossing the Rubicon post.


----------



## Happened again

Brav520 said:


> don’t go down this rabbit hole with a lefty , it’s a sidetrack
> 
> should the border be protected is the question


ha...yes of course.  but to debate the logic of having something vs nothing could be so much fun.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Happened again said:


> of having something vs nothing could be so much fun.


I agree. Some days husker seems to have at least a pea sized brain, and other days there appears to be nothing in there.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did they try to have the will of the American people ignored? Did they try to coerce people into changing electors? Did they steal secret documents? What have the done wrong? Did they do it for personal reasons or to protect people? Maybe all the secrets will be revealed when Putin’s military finds Hunter Biden’s laptop!


How does that have ANYTHING to do with my point?  

But since you have no real rebuttals to my point, I’ll ask if you have any ideas why the FBI pressured Twitter to squelch the laptop story?


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> You mean like the wall?


The one Biden allocated more money to or is there another one you speak of?









						Biden’s DHS closing gap in California border wall Trump wanted filled in
					

The Biden administration has quietly given the green light to completing a border barrier separating Southern California from Mexico.




					nypost.com


----------



## Kicker 2.0

espola said:


> Worthless?  Useless? Some of the biggest student loan debts were acquired while attending medical school.  And a $10k rollback wouldn't really wipe out a $200k debt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not a cure-all, but Biden’s debt relief aids medical students, residents
> 
> 
> The president’s initiative only covers a portion of the average debt of medical school, but the Association of American Medical Colleges says it still does some good.
> 
> 
> 
> www.chiefhealthcareexecutive.com


If those students are now making over $125k they aren’t helped.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If those students are now making over $125k they aren’t helped.


Why would someone making over 125k need help?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Kicker 2.0 said:


> If those students are now making over $125k they aren’t helped.


Students took those loans voluntarily. Nobody forced them to take a loan. 

50% of loans are held with those with masters degrees or higher. 

Typical college grad makes far more than HS grads. Why should HS grades pay for student loans that went to people that generally speaking make more money than them?

Etc etc.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Why would someone making over 125k need help?


Don’t recall saying that they did.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The one Biden allocated more money to or is there another one you speak of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden’s DHS closing gap in California border wall Trump wanted filled in
> 
> 
> The Biden administration has quietly given the green light to completing a border barrier separating Southern California from Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


“In late May, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would replace a “deteriorated barrier” located near the cross-border Friendship Park in Imperial Beach, just south of San Diego.”

The repair and replacement of existing fencing has been going on for decades. They are still working off W funding in some sections.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How does that have ANYTHING to do with my point?
> 
> But since you have no real rebuttals to my point, I’ll ask if you have any ideas why the FBI pressured Twitter to squelch the laptop story?


Nothing, but it sure cracked me up!

. . . and the laptop story followed the same line of disinformation as many of the previous elections Russian infiltration on social media. What is the “laptop story”? Maybe you could be the first to break the news! No one else has anything beyond speculation.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Nothing, but it sure cracked me up!


That’s what I thought


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Nothing, but it sure cracked me up
> 
> . . . and the laptop story followed the same line of disinformation as many of the previous elections Russian infiltration on social media. What is the “laptop story”? Maybe you could be the first to break the news! No one else has anything beyond speculation.


What exactly would this same line of disinformation be ?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That’s what I thought


How about that breaking news on the laptop? More conjecture?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> What exactly would this same line of disinformation be ?


Avoiding the query I see or an you open the mystery of the fabled laptop? False information is blocked plain and simple.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> Avoiding the query I see or an you open the mystery of the fabled laptop? False information is blocked plain and simple.


you are asking me to help you google , sir 

what’s was the false information that needed to be blocked ?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Hüsker Dü said:


> False information is blocked plain and simple.


Even the mainstream press has come around to admit it wasnt fake or disinformation. The laptop and its contents are real. 

However the press has been very uncurious about it because they are liberal and the subject at hand is the Pres and his son.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> “In late May, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would replace a “deteriorated barrier” located near the cross-border Friendship Park in Imperial Beach, just south of San Diego.”
> 
> The repair and replacement of existing fencing has been going on for decades. They are still working off W funding in some sections.


Same thing here?









						Biden administration to fill border wall gaps near Yuma, Arizona
					

President Joe Biden halted new border wall construction after he took office but has since made closing the gaps just south of Yuma a priority.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> you are asking me to help you google , sir
> 
> what’s was the false information that needed to be blocked ?


I got zip, nada, het, nein. Seems as I’m not a truth social subscriber nor a infowars listener the exact facts behind the laptop drama are beyond me and reaches of intoned society. I thought perhaps you pray tell could enlighten me, nay the world.


----------



## Brav520

Hüsker Dü said:


> I got zip, nada, het, nein. Seems as I’m not a truth social subscriber nor a infowars listener the exact facts behind the laptop drama are beyond me and reaches of intoned society. I thought perhaps you pray tell could enlighten me, nay the world.


what did you type in the google search bar?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> what did you type in the google search bar?


Hinter Biden laptop. All I got was the whole thing was based on conjecture, assumption and the word supposedly came up a lot.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Brav520 said:


> what did you type in the google search bar?


PolitiFact wrote in June 2021: "Over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden", concluding that the laptop "was real in the sense that it exists, but it didn't prove much", as "[n]othing from the laptop has revealed illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden as vice president with regard to his son's tenure as a director for Burisma..."[4] PolitiFact states that it is possible that "copies of a laptop" were obtained, instead of the actual laptop.[4]


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> PolitiFact wrote in June 2021: "Over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden", concluding that the laptop "was real in the sense that it exists, but it didn't prove much", as "[n]othing from the laptop has revealed illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden as vice president with regard to his son's tenure as a director for Burisma..."[4] PolitiFact states that it is possible that "copies of a laptop" were obtained, instead of the actual laptop.[4]


So you’re saying the FBI pressured FB to squelch stories in the Hunter Biden laptop because they didn’t want easily disprovable “disinformation” getting out there?


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> So you’re saying the FBI pressured FB to squelch stories in the Hunter Biden laptop because they didn’t want easily disprovable “disinformation” getting out there?


I ain’t saying shit dumbass, read, think, most people don’t. That’s why they are now trying to filter out disinformation. They didn’t in 2016 and look what happened we ended up with a self-obsessed, moron who stole state secrets. A guy who has been known to try to seek favor with murderous dictators. It will all be in the history books unless the morons continue to burn books, take away freedom and squelch democracy.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> I ain’t saying shit dumbass, read, think, most people don’t. That’s why they are now trying to filter out disinformation. They didn’t in 2016 and look what happened we ended up with a self-obsessed, moron who stole state secrets. A guy who has been known to try to seek favor with murderous dictators. It will all be in the history books unless the morons continue to burn books, take away freedom and squelch democracy.


Pick a fight you can’t win so devolve into name calling and Trump as if I give a shit about that douchebag. 

You are so TYPICAL and PREDICTABLE!

Ask Thibideaux what he thinks….


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Pick a fight you can’t win so devolve into name calling and Trump as if I give a shit about that douchebag.
> 
> You are so TYPICAL and PREDICTABLE!
> 
> Ask Thibideaux what he thinks….


Within your question to me lies the roots of either ignorance or sloth which is it?


----------



## crush

Flex alert is now in force losers. Not only are you to be fully jabbed 4+ and wear a mask, you must NOT charge your Tesla and your house better not be under 78 degrees.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Within your question to me lies the roots of either ignorance or sloth which is it?


See…..


----------



## Hüsker Dü

Kicker 2.0 said:


> See…..


Yes I did that’s why I reacted that way. Maybe if you came with an honest, informed reply I wouldn’t have to question your validity. I feel you may be feigning an unaware state but that  has yet to be proven. The angle you come from shows your intent and loyalty. Like I said over 4 years ago the time will come that, like Judas, many of the true believers will deny savior trump . . . I just didn’t see that they would still be defending him with such fervor. If it’s Biden vs trump you will vote for trump even if he is selling state secrets to vlad on his way to Leavenworth.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Avoiding the query I see or an you open the mystery of the fabled laptop? False information is blocked plain and simple.


how exactly is the laptob fabled?  Were you told that by someone at the FBI? How do you know the documents at trumpy's pad are still classified?  If your reply is he shouldn't have the documents in his possession, then fine, you've moved onto some level of sophistication.  If you are spewing rhetoric about nuclear codes...then you are are just silly.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes I did that’s why I reacted that way. Maybe if you came with an honest, informed reply I wouldn’t have to question your validity. I feel you may be feigning an unaware state but that  has yet to be proven. The angle you come from shows your intent and loyalty. Like I said over 4 years ago the time will come that, like Judas, many of the true believers will deny savior trump . . . I just didn’t see that they would still be defending him with such fervor. If it’s Biden vs trump you will vote for trump even if he is selling state secrets to vlad on his way to Leavenworth.


selling state secrets to vlad?


----------



## watfly

The CDC, Fauci, the "science" community, the powerful teachers' unions and any politician that supported school closures should fry for this.









						‘Nation’s Report Card’: Two Decades of Growth Wiped Out by Two Years of Pandemic
					

Two decades of growth for American students in reading and math were wiped away by just two years of pandemic-disrupted learning, according to national test scores released this morning.  Dismal releases from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) — often referred to as the...




					www.the74million.org


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Hüsker Dü said:


> I ain’t saying shit dumbass, read, think, most people don’t. That’s why they are now trying to filter out disinformation. They didn’t in 2016 and look what happened we ended up with a self-obsessed, moron who stole state secrets. A guy who has been known to try to seek favor with murderous dictators. It will all be in the history books unless the morons continue to burn books, take away freedom and squelch democracy.


Hillary? D's have shown a preference for nice talking, good-looking, men as presidents. Hillary wasn't any of those three.

The history books need to take one more step back to get to the source - a biased media that advocates and drives division as a purpose. Yeah, so surprising the portion of the population referred to as a "basketful of deplorable" will look elsewhere for information than the sources that advocate for and fawn over divisive leaders. Then these elite, idiot, "arbiters of truth" believe they can fix things by suppressing "misinformation". Nothing screams "you can't handle the truth" elitism more than your first sentence, "read, think, most people don’t". It's a common refrain from those who want to control the message and it will continue to move us down the path of division. Look inward. Quit being so angry. Quit believing the world would be a better place if only everyone believed as you believe and you will have a chance to see things more clearly. No one ever wrote the book, "Solving the World's Problems Through the Lens of Misanthropy". Good luck with it.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> The CDC, Fauci, the "science" community, the powerful teachers' unions and any politician that supported school closures should fry for this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Nation’s Report Card’: Two Decades of Growth Wiped Out by Two Years of Pandemic
> 
> 
> Two decades of growth for American students in reading and math were wiped away by just two years of pandemic-disrupted learning, according to national test scores released this morning.  Dismal releases from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) — often referred to as the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the74million.org


The science community was more focused in vaccines, indoor social venues, and masks.  

If you want to blame scientists for a vaccine requirement or bar closure, that’s fair.  But the politicians get credit for school closures.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> The science community was more focused in vaccines, indoor social venues, and masks.
> 
> If you want to blame scientists for a vaccine requirement or bar closure, that’s fair.  But the politicians get credit for school closures.


It's unfortunate that you're more interested in protecting the science community than our children.  I guess everyone has different priorities.

Not to mention that your claim is completely false.




__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Kicker 2.0

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes I did that’s why I reacted that way. Maybe if you came with an honest, informed reply I wouldn’t have to question your validity. I feel you may be feigning an unaware state but that  has yet to be proven. The angle you come from shows your intent and loyalty. Like I said over 4 years ago the time will come that, like Judas, many of the true believers will deny savior trump . . . I just didn’t see that they would still be defending him with such fervor. If it’s Biden vs trump you will vote for trump even if he is selling state secrets to vlad on his way to Leavenworth.


Fucking hilarious….expect others to do what you refuse to do…see


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> It's unfortunate that you're more interested in protecting the science community than our children.  I guess everyone has different priorities.
> 
> Not to mention that your claim is completely false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org


100% false indeed.  Politicians leaned heavily on "science" to justify pandemic actions.  Plenty of politicians to be found within the science/medicine community.  Many took the opportunity to self stroke their egos and expand their wealth.  Shameful.  To be fair, most in the science and medical community were taking care of patients and doing sciency things.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Happened again said:


> 100% false indeed.  Politicians leaned heavily on "science" to justify pandemic actions.  Plenty of politicians to be found within the science/medicine community.  Many took the opportunity to self stroke their egos and expand their wealth.  Shameful.  To be fair, most in the science and medical community were taking care of patients and doing sciency things.


Politicians also leaned heavily on big tech to stifle thoughts, facts, opinions contrary to what they wanted pushed out to the public.









						Big Tech And Biden Admin Colluded To Silence Covid Dissenters
					

Twitter banning journalists like Alex Berenson who reject the federal government's narrative is worrisome for the future of free speech.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> To be fair, most in the science and medical community were taking care of patients and doing sciency things.


Good point.  I actually separate the medical community (those that actually treat patients) vs. the science community (those that play with rats in a controlled environment).  The medical community as a whole were heroes during the pandemic.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Pollo Elastico said:


> Politicians also leaned heavily on big tech to stifle thoughts, facts, opinions contrary to what they wanted pushed out to the public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Tech And Biden Admin Colluded To Silence Covid Dissenters
> 
> 
> Twitter banning journalists like Alex Berenson who reject the federal government's narrative is worrisome for the future of free speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefederalist.com


"Documents Berenson obtained during the discovery phase of the lawsuit he filed against Twitter illustrate how the government actively works to shut down free speech on issues of public interest. Berenson’s criticisms of the Covid vaccines, which he claimed were ineffective and possibly harmful, came exactly at the time when the federal government, as well as many states and cities, were using every available coercive means at their disposal to force Americans to take them. As such, his speech was deemed extremist and needed to be suppressed to save lives during the pandemic. "


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> It's unfortunate that you're more interested in protecting the science community than our children.  I guess everyone has different priorities.
> 
> Not to mention that your claim is completely false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org


Nice article from March 10, 2020.

Do you have anything more recent, or are you merely saying that there was scientific support for school closures in the very earliest days of the pandemic?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nice article from March 10, 2020.
> 
> Do you have anything more recent, or are you merely saying that there was scientific support for school closures in the very earliest days of the pandemic?


Plenty of other articles.  What articles do you have that politicians unilaterally acted without scientific input?  Regardless, I don't need to prove a claim that is false on its face.  Why you and some of your comrades continue to defend science over the children is beyond mind-boggling, very sad actually.  You just continue to dig yourself a deeper hole.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> Plenty of other articles.  What articles do you have that politicians unilaterally acted without scientific input?  Regardless, I don't need to prove a claim that is false on its face.  Why you and some of your comrades continue to defend science over the children is beyond mind-boggling, very sad actually.  *You just continue to dig yourself a deeper hole.*


----------



## Pollo Elastico

watfly said:


> Why you and some of your comrades continue to defend science over the children is beyond mind-boggling, very sad actually. You just continue to dig yourself a deeper hole.


Because they cannot come around to the reality that they were wrong. Wrong about policy, its harms, etc.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Plenty of other articles.  What articles do you have that politicians unilaterally acted without scientific input?  Regardless, I don't need to prove a claim that is false on its face.  Why you and some of your comrades continue to defend science over the children is beyond mind-boggling, very sad actually.  You just continue to dig yourself a deeper hole.


Acting without scientific input?  I’m not claiming that.   They acted despite scientific input, or on the basis of out of date scientific input.

Keeping school closures was an example of acting based on out of date scientific input.

Now, if you want future policies to be based on up to date scientific input, you might want to ask yourself how many scientists wanted to be anywhere near the covid pissing match created by Fox and Friends.  What sane person would sign up for that kind of abuse?

If I were a scientist doing research on aerosol respiratory transmission, there is no way in hell I’d go on Megan Kelly’s show.  And if I had to go for a Rand Paul hearing, I’d stick tight to scientific jargon to avoid giving him an opening.


----------



## watfly

Pollo Elastico said:


> Because they cannot come around to the reality that they were wrong. Wrong about policy, its harms, etc.


I got to believe that its more than that.  Can they be that desperate to be "right" on an internet forum?  It could be any number of things, but my theory is that its selfishness and fear.  They believe that kids have a responsibility to protect them as an adult, so they supported school shutdowns.  Their defense of science is just a defense mechanism.  How's that for forum psychoanalysis?


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I got to believe that its more than that.  Can they be that desperate to be "right" on an internet forum?  It could be any number of things, but my theory is that its selfishness and fear.  They believe that kids have a responsibility to protect them as an adult, so they supported school shutdowns.  Their defense of science is just a defense mechanism.  How's that for forum psychoanalysis?


Maybe, just maybe, I believe that you are wrong.

We have had over a million Americans die from covid.  Perhaps I believe this was a bad thing, and that responsibility lies with the adults who refused to do their part.

Nah, couldn’t be that.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I got to believe that its more than that.  Can they be that desperate to be "right" on an internet forum?  It could be any number of things, but my theory is that its selfishness and fear.  They believe that kids have a responsibility to protect them as an adult, so they supported school shutdowns.  Their defense of science is just a defense mechanism.  How's that for forum psychoanalysis?


All true but it's not just a defense mechanism for their fear.  They can't bring themselves to accept that the technocracy they've built (and of which some of them are members) might have failed so spectacularly because it impacts their own self worth and life choices.  The technocrats remember have now a stunning record of failure including the Iraq War, the 2008 financial crisis, the COVID response, and the current inflationary cycle.  Coming down the track is climate change and their mea cupla for their tossing nuclear overboard when Europe potentially freezes this winter and our energy prices are eye popping.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Acting without scientific input?  I’m not claiming that.   They acted despite scientific input, or on the basis of out of date scientific input.
> 
> Keeping school closures was an example of acting based on out of date scientific input.
> 
> Now, if you want future policies to be based on up to date scientific input, you might want to ask yourself how many scientists wanted to be anywhere near the covid pissing match created by Fox and Friends.  What sane person would sign up for that kind of abuse?
> 
> If I were a scientist doing research on aerosol respiratory transmission, there is no way in hell I’d go on Megan Kelly’s show.  And if I had to go for a Rand Paul hearing, I’d stick tight to scientific jargon to avoid giving him an opening.


complete gibberish. There was junk science and medicine being endorsed on all networks..all.  The frothy, self serving doctors and scientits being platformed for all to see was disgusting and shameful.  networks were more than happy to drive ratings using scare tactics - winter of death, kids killing grandparents, etc..all BS and very unscientific.   The end result of all of this was an increase in adolescent suicide, a significant impact on childhood education, and an immeasurable impact on all fronts for children in less than ideal socio economic conditions.  For those who sit behind "gated" communities with powerful wifi and access to online tutoring, organized school districts, and parents who can stay at home, the pandemic was a blip in time.  To some kids it was great.  For many, not so much.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> All true but it's not just a defense mechanism for their fear.  They can't bring themselves to accept that the technocracy they've built (and of which some of them are members) might have failed so spectacularly because it impacts their own self worth and life choices.  The technocrats remember have now a stunning record of failure including the Iraq War, the 2008 financial crisis, the COVID response, and the current inflationary cycle.  Coming down the track is climate change and their mea cupla for their tossing nuclear overboard when Europe potentially freezes this winter and our energy prices are eye popping.


p.s. the historical record is very clear.  The CDC was planning as early as the beginning of February to shut down schools.  I remember I was listening to a news report on CNN about the CDC telling schools they should potentially be prepared for a months long shutdown which sent me into high gear about prepping my own kids school (which was oblivious).  The Birx book confirms all of this....it was them, not the Trump admin or Pence, who was pushing it.


----------



## watfly

This article makes a very articulate argument for how science has failed our children. 









						Science and Society Are Failing Children in the COVID Era
					

The school reopening debate points toward a broader range of problems facing the young




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> p.s. the historical record is very clear.  The CDC was planning as early as the beginning of February to shut down schools.  I remember I was listening to a news report on CNN about the CDC telling schools they should potentially be prepared for a months long shutdown which sent me into high gear about prepping my own kids school (which was oblivious).  The Birx book confirms all of this....it was them, not the Trump admin or Pence, who was pushing it.


BTW I get why the schools would be closed in spring of 2020.  We didn't know what the IFR was for sure back then, China was lying about its data, and the news out of China was filled with horror stories.  I don't fault them for the closures spring of 2020.  I would have done the same thing if I had been Queen-Empress.  I do fault them for the closures in Fall of 21. By then we knew more about the IFR.  We knew who was being affected.  We knew kids weren't being heavily impacted.  And exceptions had already been drawn for the BLM protests.  The reality is the teachers were scared, so the teachers unions demanded things, and public health was all too willing to run cover for them....it's why Los Angeles didn't reopen it's private schools and didn't grant waivers for the young elementary kids while other counties did.  Public health had also backed itself into a complete corner with the nonsensical 6 ft rule which ultimately had zero scientific basis.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Grace T. said:


> BTW I get why the schools would be closed in spring of 2020. We didn't know what the IFR was for sure back then, China was lying about its data, and the news out of China was filled with horror stories. I don't fault them for the closures spring of 2020. I would have done the same thing if I had been Queen-Empress. I do fault them for the closures in Fall of 21. By then we knew more about the IFR.


Few if any are arguing the spring closure was bad. However by the summer we knew young people were not at risk. And despite that in many parts of the country they keep kids out of schools.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

And remember this when you consider info that comes from the gov.

MORE FROM THE NEW CIVIL LIBERTIES ALLIANCE: NCLA Suit Uncovers Army of Federal Bureaucrats Coercing Social-Media Companies to Censor Speech. “The New Civil Liberties Alliance, the Attorney General of Missouri, and the Attorney General of Louisiana, have filed a lawsuit that blows the lid off a sprawling federal censorship regime that will shock the conscience of Americans. The joint statement on discovery disputes in the lawsuit, State of Missouri ex rel. Schmitt, et al. v. Joseph R. Biden, Jr., et al., reveals scores of federal officials across at least eleven federal agencies have secretly communicated with social-media platforms to censor and suppress private speech federal officials disfavor. This unlawful enterprise has been wildly successful.”


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This article makes a very articulate argument for how science has failed our children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science and Society Are Failing Children in the COVID Era
> 
> 
> The school reopening debate points toward a broader range of problems facing the young
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com


That’s odd.  It reads like an article by scientists who are advocating for the children.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*THE ADULT DIAPER MARKET IS SET TO OVERTAKE BABY SALES BY 2020*
Posted July 19


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> That’s odd.  It reads like an article by scientists who are advocating for the children.


Actually an MD and health policy professionals.  Not virologists or epidemiologists which is who you claim we should follow.  Keep trying....actually don't.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Actually an MD and health policy professionals.  Not virologists or epidemiologists which is who you claim we should follow.  Keep trying....actually don't.


Nason Maani, Ph.D., is a Harkness Fellow in Health Care Policy and Practice at the Boston University School of Public Health.

Sandro Galea, MD, DrPH, is professor and dean at the Boston University School of Public Health.

Read their bios.  






						Nason Maani
					

Placement: Boston University School of Public Health  Mentor: Sandro Galea, M.D., M.P.H., D.P.H., Dean and Robert A. Knox Professor, Boston University School of Public Health  Project: COVID-19, Inequity, and Underinvestment in US Population Health   Nason Maani, Ph.D., M.Sc. PH, FRSA, is a...




					www.commonwealthfund.org
				









						Sandro Galea | SPH
					






					www.bu.edu
				




These are not primary care physicians.  They are a pair of epidemiologist academics doing exactly what you say you wanted them to do.  And they were doing it back in March, 2021.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Nason Maani, Ph.D., is a Harkness Fellow in Health Care Policy and Practice at the Boston University School of Public Health.
> 
> Sandro Galea, MD, DrPH, is professor and dean at the Boston University School of Public Health.
> 
> Read their bios.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nason Maani
> 
> 
> Placement: Boston University School of Public Health  Mentor: Sandro Galea, M.D., M.P.H., D.P.H., Dean and Robert A. Knox Professor, Boston University School of Public Health  Project: COVID-19, Inequity, and Underinvestment in US Population Health   Nason Maani, Ph.D., M.Sc. PH, FRSA, is a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.commonwealthfund.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandro Galea | SPH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bu.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are not primary care physicians.  They are a pair of epidemiologist academics doing exactly what you say you wanted them to do.  And they were doing it back in March, 2021.


I can still hear the dirt hitting the blade of the shovel.


----------



## watfly

Pollo Elastico said:


> Few if any are arguing the spring closure was bad. However by the summer we knew young people were not at risk. And despite that in many parts of the country they keep kids out of schools.


I would add that it just wasn't schools, but all the athletics that were shut down and play dates discouraged for kids that also went into the damage equation.  Remember, Newsom's crazy return to sports matrix?



Grace T. said:


> All true but it's not just a defense mechanism for their fear.  They can't bring themselves to accept that the technocracy they've built (and of which some of them are members) might have failed so spectacularly because it impacts their own self worth and life choices.  The technocrats remember have now a stunning record of failure including the Iraq War, the 2008 financial crisis, the COVID response, and the current inflationary cycle.  Coming down the track is climate change and their mea cupla for their tossing nuclear overboard when Europe potentially freezes this winter and our energy prices are eye popping.


I'll put on my broken record, the complete lack of accountability and checks and balances for scientific opinion has led us to this point.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

SB 866, the bill to let minors get vaccinated without parental consent, is officially dead.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

watfly said:


> I would add that it just wasn't schools, but all the athletics that were shut down and play dates discouraged for kids that also went into the damage equation.  Remember, Newsom's crazy return to sports matrix?


Like this ole gem…









						Paddle boarder chased by boat, arrested in Malibu after flouting coronavirus closures
					

The man, who wasn't identified, faces a fine of $1,000 or six months in jail, or both, if convicted of violating the state stay-at-home order.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## watfly

Bruddah IZ said:


> SB 866, the bill to let minors get vaccinated without parental consent, is officially dead.


There was a doctor on CNN this morning that said there is not enough proven benefit to warrant getting the booster that just came out...much to the dismay of the anchor.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Bruddah IZ said:


> SB 866, the bill to let minors get vaccinated without parental consent, is officially dead.


Interesting. Two days ago I called to get my daughter’s vaccination records for college and they refused my request because “your daughter is 12 or older” and we need her permission for this request. Glad CA has their eye on the ball looking out for our youth. We can’t have their parents knowing their child’s vaccination status once they are 12.


----------



## Happened again

watfly said:


> There was a doctor on CNN this morning that said there is not enough proven benefit to warrant getting the booster that just came out...much to the dismay of the anchor.


The trials mice the booster were tested on would beg to differ.  They all agree the booster works just fine and that we should at least try it..


----------



## ajaxahi

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interesting. Two days ago I called to get my daughter’s vaccination records for college and they refused my request because “your daughter is 12 or older” and we need her permission for this request. Glad CA has their eye on the ball looking out for our youth. We can’t have their parents knowing their child’s vaccination status once they are 12.


I think it might be 18 or older. My kids are 13 and 17 and I’ve had no problems getting their covid vaccination records immediately texted to me via this California website.  https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


----------



## Grace T.

Ah...Dad4 must have gotten the memo in advanced....apparently it was Trump and the Republicans fault the schools were closed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565421258996604933


----------



## Pollo Elastico

This really should be bigger news. We saw last week FB admitted the FBI played a role in them limiting info about the laptop.

For all the claims it is the Rs who are acting fascist like. We keep seeing instances of the Biden admin pressuring corporations, and those corporations going along to kill off or limit info/opinions contrary to the gov line.

This is disturbing, but most people won't pay much attention, and the mainstream press will likely not report on it at all or in a very limited way.



Here's what we know so far. *DOJ identified 45 federal officials who have interacted with social media companies on misinformation.*
Beyond DOJ, *Meta identified 32 additional federal officials including White House Officials who communicated with them, and YouTube identified 11 federal officials including White House Officials who communicated with them, many of whom were not disclosed by DOJ.

This is a vast censorship enterprise,* and the American people deserve to see the truth. Here are examples that already prove that federal officials and social media companies are coordinating on censorship, and we're not close to being done yet:


*A senior FB official sent an email to the Surgeon General stating, "I know our teams met today to better understand the scope of what the White House expects from us on misinformation going forward."* This email chain follows the SG's "misinformation health advisory" in July 2021.


Further communications show that *Facebook is "increasing the strength of our demotions for COVID and vaccine-related content *that third party fact checkers rate as 'Partly False' or 'Missing Context.'


That content will now be demoted at the same strength that we demote any content on our platform rated 'False.'"

Twitter scheduled a meeting to debrief top White House Officials on "vaccine misinformation."


*There are several instances where Facebook wouldn't proceed with censoring freedom of speech on their platform until they had input, or a "debunking" from the CDC. Twitter followed the same course in at least one email.



The CDC also proposed a monthly debunking meeting with Facebook to help them censor free speech as well as regular "Be on the Lookout" calls with major social media outlets.

A White House official was even concerned about parody Fauci accounts and coordinated with Facebook to take them down.*


The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) reached out to Twitter, Google, Meta, and Microsoft following the botched rollout of DHS' Disinformation Governance Board:


The Deputy Secretary at Treasury sought to connect with social media platforms and influence operations on social media.

This is just the beginning. We've beat the Biden Administration in court in this case, and we plan to do it again.

Missouri and Louisiana will continue to fight to get to the bottom of this alleged collusion and expose the suppression of freedom of speech by social media giants at the behest of top-ranking government officials.

*Translation: The govt reminded social media it was their job to regulate content on their sites that is not covered by Section 230 or 1A such as violence, misinformation, & disinformation*, because the social media companies in a time of great need were not being responsible!


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Think about this. dad and others were/are big fans of the pronouncements of the gov. They didnt like to hear opposing viewpoints regarding covid etc. And pointed out...hey some of that has been factchecked and is wrong. As it turns out our gov was pressuring private companies to label opposing views is disinformation and or suppress it altogether. 

This should be a scandal and a warning of the largest magnitude. Especially as increasingly tech takes a larger and larger role in our lives. 


The White House used "private" corporations to illegally enforce their own censorship demands, violating the First Amendment.

Jonathan S. Tobin at The Federalist:



> As far as the managerial class was concerned, Twitter's permanent ban of journalist and author Alex Berenson in August 2021 was entirely justified. Indeed, most of the reaction to his ban consisted of mockery of the lawsuit he subsequently filed to force Twitter to reinstate him.
> Since his ban, Berenson has not only been vindicated, but news surfaced that his silencing was the direct result of a request from the White House.
> *Documents Berenson obtained during the discovery phase of the lawsuit he filed against Twitter illustrate how the government actively works to shut down free speech on issues of public interest.* Berenson's criticisms of the Covid vaccines, which he claimed were ineffective and possibly harmful, came exactly at the time when the federal government, as well as many states and cities, were using every available coercive means at their disposal to force Americans to take them. As such, his speech was deemed extremist and needed to be suppressed to save lives during the pandemic.
> *While President Biden blithely labels his political opponents as "semi-fascists," it is he who has been playing the part of a fascist by using powerful corporations to stifle opposition. And thus, Berenson's Twitter ban must be acknowledged as a rank injustice.*
> ...
> 
> There are two important takeaways from this development.
> First, everyone must now acknowledge Berenson's views that were labeled wrongthink a year ago were largely correct about the shortcomings of Covid vaccines.
> *The second point concerns the way the government used a public health emergency not only to seize unprecedented power but to trash civil liberties by leveraging the resources of Big Tech companies.*



As Steven Green comments at Instapundit: "There's no more pretending that the social media giants don't act as arms of the federal government."


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Like this ole gem…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paddle boarder chased by boat, arrested in Malibu after flouting coronavirus closures
> 
> 
> The man, who wasn't identified, faces a fine of $1,000 or six months in jail, or both, if convicted of violating the state stay-at-home order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


April 3, 2020.

Do you whiners have any complaints that aren't from the first two months of the pandemic?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> April 3, 2020.
> 
> Do you whiners have any complaints that aren't from the first two months of the pandemic?


You must have missed it the first time.









						‘Nation’s Report Card’: Two Decades of Growth Wiped Out by Two Years of Pandemic
					

Two decades of growth for American students in reading and math were wiped away by just two years of pandemic-disrupted learning, according to national test scores released this morning.  Dismal releases from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) — often referred to as the...




					www.the74million.org


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You must have missed it the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Nation’s Report Card’: Two Decades of Growth Wiped Out by Two Years of Pandemic
> 
> 
> Two decades of growth for American students in reading and math were wiped away by just two years of pandemic-disrupted learning, according to national test scores released this morning.  Dismal releases from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) — often referred to as the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the74million.org


Your source is a pro-trump election denial website?

But you don't like the man.  Got it.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> April 3, 2020.
> 
> Do you whiners have any complaints that aren't from the first two months of the pandemic?


It’s called context…..but I’m sure that flew over your head like most things in life.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> Your source is a pro-trump election denial website?
> 
> But you don't like the man.  Got it.


All the reports coming out over the past half year or so show things like...

- educational outcomes affected
- massive inflation 
- mandates didnt stop the spread
- etc.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interesting. Two days ago I called to get my daughter’s vaccination records for college and they refused my request because “your daughter is 12 or older” and we need her permission for this request. Glad CA has their eye on the ball looking out for our youth. We can’t have their parents knowing their child’s vaccination status once they are 12.


The all knowing Socialist and their one size fits all tyrannical policies.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

ajaxahi said:


> I think it might be 18 or older. My kids are 13 and 17 and I’ve had no problems getting their covid vaccination records immediately texted to me via this California website.  https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


The original issue was vaxing minors without parental consent.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

dad4 said:


> Your source is a pro-trump election denial website?
> 
> But you don't like the man.  Got it.


Keeps going back to the same conclusion.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Keeps going back to the same conclusion.


let's play a game...imagine that piece was written by someone you agreed with....would it be right then?  Or the mere fact that it's presented by someone who you think opposes your world view you automatically dismiss it?  Imagine if that reasoning was implemented everywhere.. imagine.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Your source is a pro-trump election denial website?
> 
> But you don't like the man.  Got it.


Typical attack the source and not the substance.  The data and story is from the NCES/NAEP, a government agency.  How raw are your hands from grasping at straws?


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> It’s called context…..but I’m sure that flew over your head like most things in life.


Your complaint is that I put watfly’s post in context.  It came from “the74million.org”.  As posted, the context is anti-democratic conspiracy theories.

His other post was actually credible.  It is a well written article by a pair of epidemiologists, arguing in favor of school openings.  He just had to change the topic when it turned out that he was agreeing with a “scientist”.


----------



## watfly

Hüsker Dü said:


> Keeps going back to the same conclusion.











						Student test scores plummeted in math and reading after the pandemic, new assessment finds | CNN
					

Math and reading scores for 9-year-olds in the US fell between 2020 and 2022 by a level not seen in decades, a foreboding sign of the state of American education two years after the Covid-19 pandemic began.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü

watfly said:


> Student test scores plummeted in math and reading after the pandemic, new assessment finds | CNN
> 
> 
> Math and reading scores for 9-year-olds in the US fell between 2020 and 2022 by a level not seen in decades, a foreboding sign of the state of American education two years after the Covid-19 pandemic began.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Maybe all those parents shouldn’t have been baking sourdough and binge watching Netflix?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe all those parents shouldn’t have been baking sourdough and binge watching Netflix?


Or get this. We should not have shut schools since we knew by the summer kids had no risk.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe all those parents shouldn’t have been baking sourdough and binge watching Netflix?


Nice quip.

Now read the article and which children were negatively impacted the most.  (Hint: it’s not the sourdough crowd)


----------



## dad4

Schools should have been open.  But bars restaurants and casinos should have been closed.

Y'all seem to keep forgetting that the adults kept their things open while they closed everything for kids.


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Nice quip.
> 
> Now read the article and which children were negatively impacted the most.  (Hint: it’s not the sourdough crowd)


Yes it was those parents that have to work. The people that fuel this nation, but they aren’t the ones doing the bitching.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> Your complaint is that I put watfly’s post in context.  It came from “the74million.org”.  As posted, the context is anti-democratic conspiracy theories.
> 
> His other post was actually credible.  It is a well written article by a pair of epidemiologists, arguing in favor of school openings.  He just had to change the topic when it turned out that he was agreeing with a “scientist”.


No…like I said….by now it is behind you.  

The nostalgic context of stupid policy “based on science” ….


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Y'all seem to keep forgetting that the adults kept their things open while they closed everything for kids.


Some of y’all that is. The ones that made the decisions about what was allowed to stay open.

I think you’re conflating some things that the ant-lockdown crowd wanted to be open and who was responsible for what was permitted to be open or not.


----------



## N00B

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes it was those parents that have to work. The people that fuel this nation, but they aren’t the ones doing the bitching.


Could be a real Zinger you got there.

If you weren’t spouting racist rhetoric about disadvantaged groups being bad parents and poor advocates for their children.


----------



## dad4

N00B said:


> Some of y’all that is. The ones that made the decisions about what was allowed to stay open.
> 
> I think you’re conflating some things that the ant-lockdown crowd wanted to be open and who was responsible for what was permitted to be open or not.


Who here made the decision about what was permitted to open?

Other than the occasional rant, we're all pretty much powerless on that front.


----------



## Desert Hound

Y





dad4 said:


> Schools should have been open.  But bars restaurants and casinos should have been closed.
> 
> Y'all seem to keep forgetting that the adults kept their things open while they closed everything for kids.


 You keep pretending that you wanted schools open. You were very firm in your convictions that schools should not be open.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> Who here made the decision about what was permitted to open?


Agreed. So which “adults kept their things open while they closed everything for kids”?


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Y
> You keep pretending that you wanted schools open. You were very firm in your convictions that schools should not be open.


So you keep telling me.  But you have it wrong.

Your main complaint was that I wanted to close bars, restaurants, and casinos, because of their higher transmission rates.

If you want to defend keeping bars open, go for it.   But don't hide behind kids when most of your focus back then was on keeping the pubs open.


----------



## N00B

N00B said:


> Agreed. So which “adults kept their things open while they closed everything for kids”?


I still have the same questions, but will apologize in advance for the tone upon rereading my own words.  We probably only disagree 20% of the time on general themes or topics.  This one just happens to be a hot button of mine.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

ajaxahi said:


> I think it might be 18 or older. My kids are 13 and 17 and I’ve had no problems getting their covid vaccination records immediately texted to me via this California website.  https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/


My guess is that they misapplied the 12 years or older rule for the vaccination records.









						Do Minors Have Medical Privacy Rights?
					

Yes. Once they turn 12, they have legal rights to health privacy.




					www.scripps.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü

N00B said:


> Could be a real Zinger you got there.
> 
> If you weren’t spouting racist rhetoric about disadvantaged groups being bad parents and poor advocates for their children.


Oh hey noob, quite the assumption you made there. Based on your predetermined idea about who does most of the essential work I take it.


----------



## crush

Desert Hound said:


> You keep pretending that you wanted schools open. *You were very firm* in your convictions that schools should not be open.


and dad wanted to make sure crush get's fired or locked out of making a buck in SoCal!


----------



## crush

*Guess what % of MAGA's are unvaccinated and refused the Jab? How many got fired for saying, "no jab?" Over 75% of MAGA's never took one jab. The other 25% took one. *


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> So you keep telling me.  But you have it wrong.
> 
> Your main complaint was that I wanted to close bars, restaurants, and casinos, because of their higher transmission rates.
> 
> If you want to defend keeping bars open, go for it.   But don't hide behind kids when most of your focus back then was on keeping the pubs open.


You keep evading the fact that you wanted schools closed. You wanted pretty much everything closed.

You were aghast when some universities opened.

You were a big fan of closing schools.

Did takeout work for schools?









						Math and Reading Scores Plummeted for Students During Pandemic - Washington Free Beacon
					

Nine-year-old students' reading and math scores have dropped dramatically over the last two years, according to a new report from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), a branch of the U.S. Department of Education.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> You keep evading the fact that you wanted schools closed. You wanted pretty much everything closed.
> 
> You were aghast when some universities opened.
> 
> You were a big fan of closing schools.
> 
> Did takeout work for schools?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Math and Reading Scores Plummeted for Students During Pandemic - Washington Free Beacon
> 
> 
> Nine-year-old students' reading and math scores have dropped dramatically over the last two years, according to a new report from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), a branch of the U.S. Department of Education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> freebeacon.com


You are putting words in my mouth because the old thread was deleted and no one can look at the actual record.

If we are talking August 2020, at the time schools would have been reopening for the 2020-2021 school year,

I was a big fan of closing bars, restaurants, and casinos.  I also felt that universal masking was a good idea, air travel would spread covid, and that private dinner parties were a problem.

You were primarily concerned with the economic impact of business closures on adults.  Arizona was in the middle of a case and death spike, which you claimed was just an artifact of increased testing.

Schools were not the main topic of conversation, for anyone.  

Now, two years later, you want to reinvent the whole discussion as being schools based.  It wasn’t.  The discussion was largely over whether covid was a significant problem, whether businesses should be closed, and whether we should have to wear masks.


----------



## Happened again

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe all those parents shouldn’t have been baking sourdough and binge watching Netflix?


You are quite the tone deaf troll:

"Math scores for Black and Hispanic children were lower than those of White children, the survey found, with White students declining 5 points, Black students declining by 13 points and Hispanic students declining 8 points."

I doubt the parents of most of these kids were baking sourdough bread and watching netflix.  They were likely trying to figure out how to keep their job and balancing care for their kids who weren't allowed to go to school.  Having access to childcare trumped access to internet..imagine you being so insulated this is how you think.  Out of all of the crap that you spew, this may be your most dullest.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> You are quite the tone deaf troll:
> 
> "Math scores for Black and Hispanic children were lower than those of White children, the survey found, with White students declining 5 points, Black students declining by 13 points and Hispanic students declining 8 points."
> 
> I doubt the parents of most of these kids were baking sourdough bread and watching netflix.  They were likely trying to figure out how to keep their job and balancing care for their kids who weren't allowed to go to school.  Having access to childcare trumped access to internet..imagine you being so insulated this is how you think.  Out of all of the crap that you spew, this may be your most dullest.


100%. My buddy owns a plumbing company and his wife "was" a nurse before the pandemic. Two things happened; 1) His plumbing biz grew like never before during Rona and he needed help in the back office. 2) His wife quit her job to run back office, but really she was forced to quit because they love their kids and no way they would have left their13 year old dd, 9 year old ds and little 0ne year old dd at home all alone when schools were shut down because dads like Dad were scared. She quit to save her kids and his plumbing biz doubled in revenue. Super stoked for him and his bro  
P.S. No way they have any time for baking bread. They are open 24/7 and she takes most of the calls. They love tacos, beans, burritos and carne asada


----------



## watfly

Happened again said:


> You are quite the tone deaf troll:
> 
> "Math scores for Black and Hispanic children were lower than those of White children, the survey found, with White students declining 5 points, Black students declining by 13 points and Hispanic students declining 8 points."
> 
> I doubt the parents of most of these kids were baking sourdough bread and watching netflix.  They were likely trying to figure out how to keep their job and balancing care for their kids who weren't allowed to go to school.  Having access to childcare trumped access to internet..imagine you being so insulated this is how you think.  Out of all of the crap that you spew, this may be your most dullest.


How pathetic it is that you have to point out the obvious?  But again it just shows the arrogance and how out of touch the left is.  How many left leaning posters on here have said, "oh my kids did fine during the pandemic".  They're so narrow minded to think that their club soccer kids represent the majority.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> How many left leaning posters on here have said, "oh my kids did fine during the pandemic".


Who said that?


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> Now, two years later, you want to reinvent the whole discussion as being schools based. It wasn’t. The discussion was largely over whether covid was a significant problem, whether businesses should be closed, and whether we should have to wear masks.


Again...not reinventing. 

You did want biz closed. Just take out food was your solution. 

At the same time you didn't want schools opened either. 

And long ago the evidence was they were not at risk. And increasingly we are seeing that not sending kids to school had a terrible affect on learning outcomes. 

Don't try to pretend you were not also an advocate of school closures. Your bait and switch today I guess is we also on this forum discussed biz closure. And I guess since that was a large topic...you try to pretend school closure was not part of it? 

Lame.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> Again...not reinventing.
> 
> You did want biz closed. Just take out food was your solution.
> 
> At the same time you didn't want schools opened either.
> 
> And long ago the evidence was they were not at risk. And increasingly we are seeing that not sending kids to school had a terrible affect on learning outcomes.
> 
> Don't try to pretend you were not also an advocate of school closures. Your bait and switch today I guess is we also on this forum discussed biz closure. And I guess since that was a large topic...you try to pretend school closure was not part of it?
> 
> Lame.


There is no point in discussing it without a record of what was said.  

You can invent anything you want and claim it was my main point.  And you are.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> There is no point in discussing it without a record of what was said.
> 
> You can invent anything you want and claim it was my main point.  And you are.


...and the Rubber Chicken was not even around then to witness it.  Am I right?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> There is no point in discussing it without a record of what was said.
> 
> You can invent anything you want and claim it was my main point.  And you are.


You're so full of crap.  Back in summer 2020, you know a few months after closures started, I posted the following articles and you called them BS and argued vehemently for school closures.  If I recall, your main line of reasoning was the kids will kill grandma.









						American Academy of Pediatrics president says schools should reopen
					

Dr. Sally Goza believes schools should reopen, with a host of safety guidelines, because they provide things "you just can't get with online learning."




					www.today.com
				





			https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2020/07/schools-should-prioritize-reopening-in-fall-2020-especially-for-grades-k-5-while-weighing-risks-and-benefits
		


Stop trying to hide behind the fact that those threads no longer exist.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You're so full of crap.  Back in summer 2020, you know a few months after closures started, I posted the following articles and you called them BS and argued vehemently for school closures.  If I recall, your main line of reasoning was the kids will kill grandma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Academy of Pediatrics president says schools should reopen
> 
> 
> Dr. Sally Goza believes schools should reopen, with a host of safety guidelines, because they provide things "you just can't get with online learning."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.today.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2020/07/schools-should-prioritize-reopening-in-fall-2020-especially-for-grades-k-5-while-weighing-risks-and-benefits
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trying to hide behind the fact that those threads no longer exist.


If you look back, a lot of grandmas and grandpas did die.  About a million of them.

The people saying “you’re killing grandma” were correct.

We can talk about whether we should have opened schools and closed other things.  But opening schools with no vaccine and no other precautions would have accelerated the fall 2020 wave. 

The people arguing for open schools and closed bars have a very good point.  The people arguing for open everything with no vaccine are living in fantasy land.  If we had done that, we would have had far more deaths.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

watfly said:


> I posted the following articles and you called them BS and argued vehemently for school closures. If I recall, your main line of reasoning was the kids will kill grandma.


He pretends we don't remember what he advocated.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> If you look back, a lot of grandmas and grandpas did die.  About a million of them.
> 
> The people saying “you’re killing grandma” were correct.
> 
> We can talk about whether we should have opened schools and closed other things.  But opening schools with no vaccine and no other precautions would have accelerated the fall 2020 wave.
> 
> The people arguing for open schools and closed bars have a very good point.  The people arguing for open everything with no vaccine are living in fantasy land.  If we had done that, we would have had far more deaths.


kids killed grandmas and grandpas?  or are you saying that people aged 65 and older are more susceptible to a novel virus...that precautions should have been taken to stratify public health strategy to meet the needs of what we knew.  It's as if government can't walk and chew gum at the same time.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> He pretends we don't remember what he advocated.


Watfly is correct that he advocated early for opening up for kids.

You are full of shit.


----------



## Kicker 2.0

dad4 said:


> If you look back, a lot of grandmas and grandpas did die.  About a million of them.
> 
> The people saying “you’re killing grandma” were correct.
> 
> We can talk about whether we should have opened schools and closed other things.  But opening schools with no vaccine and no other precautions would have accelerated the fall 2020 wave.
> 
> The people arguing for open schools and closed bars have a very good point.  The people arguing for open everything with no vaccine are living in fantasy land.  If we had done that, we would have had far more deaths.


The only one whom”killed grandma” was the policy makers forcing sick elders to stay in homes where they could not really be taken care of.  

Telling a child “your killing grandma” is another reason so many of our youth are still struggling with mental health issues.


----------



## dad4

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The only one whom”killed grandma” was the policy makers forcing sick elders to stay in homes where they could not really be taken care of.
> 
> Telling a child “your killing grandma” is another reason so many of our youth are still struggling with mental health issues.


Why just one cause?

Returning patients to nursing homes caused deaths.  Opening adult hospitality caused deaths.   Both were bad decisions.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Watfly is correct that he advocated early for opening up for kids.


More importantly pediatricians, you know the doctors that actually treat kids, we're the ones advocating for in-person schooling.  I just thought it was basic common sense. Unfortunately politics, fear and scientific arrogance prevented it from happening in most states.

The organization I'm involved with started reopening its youth services clubhouses full time in June 2020 so kids had a safe, active and social place to go during the pandemic.  I'm told they didn't kill any grandmas.  If they could do it, schools could do it.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> Watfly is correct that he advocated early for opening up for kids.
> 
> You are full of shit.


So you are now claiming you didn't advocate closing schools and colleges? 

Is that the lie you are now trying to peddle?


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> So you are now claiming you didn't advocate closing schools and colleges?
> 
> Is that the lie you are now trying to peddle?


No.  I am saying my primary concern was closing high transmission venues for adults.

Schools were not really on my radar.

Or yours, for that matter.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> More importantly pediatricians, you know the doctors that actually treat kids, we're the ones advocating for in-person schooling.  I just thought it was basic common sense. Unfortunately politics, fear and scientific arrogance prevented it from happening in most states.
> 
> The organization I'm involved with started reopening its youth services clubhouses full time in June 2020 so kids had a safe, active and social place to go during the pandemic.  I'm told they didn't kill any grandmas.  If they could do it, schools could do it.


More likely, some people did get covid and die as a result of opening youth services.   But they should have been opened anyway.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> they should have been opened anyway.


For the record, Dad4 supported school openings.  

There were differences of opinion on how, indoor vs outdoor, masked or not, etc. as well as a difference of timing (Fall of 2020 vs Fall of 2021).

Now everyone can go back to talking past one another.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> No.  I am saying my primary concern was closing high transmission venues for adults.
> 
> Schools were not really on my radar.
> 
> Or yours, for that matter.


Schools were very much on your radar and everyone else's here since we all have kids in school. 

And there was much talk about it. 

You thought it was crazy schools were open in AZ and other states. This despite the evidence showing kids were not at risk, etc. 

A lot of pixels on that back and forth between you and other school closure people vs ones who wanted kids in class.


----------



## Grace T.

N00B said:


> For the record, Dad4 supported school openings.
> 
> There were differences of opinion on how, indoor vs outdoor, masked or not, etc. as well as a difference of timing (Fall of 2020 vs Fall of 2021).
> 
> Now everyone can go back to talking past one another.


That's fair.  But the timing is everything.  You can say I supported school closures because I supported the closures in the spring of 20 but by summer had been advocating for their reopening.  He at first wasn't into just "close indoor dining" like he claims to be peddling now...he wanted everything shut and hard...the turning point came when he wanted to participate in an out of state tournament and Newsom was cracking down on travel sports (which IIRC was midway into the fall of 20 because sports were still shut down and the fall season didn't launch til spring of 21).

And BTW, not speaking up for school reopenings and remaining silent while the lockdown clan was calling for their closures is just a few degrees less bad than vocally calling for their closures.  As I recall, the rationalization was, to paraphrase, "adults are insisting on their bars and indoor dining" therefore Newsom didn't have a choice but to press the levers he did.  I know a conversation always degenerates and hits rock bottom when Nazis are mentioned, but I do point out that the defense "yeah I knew what the Nazis were doing but I never supported them and I myself never rounded them up" wasn't a very good defense either.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

Grace T. said:


> . You can say I supported school closures because I supported the closures in the spring of 20 but by summer had been advocating for their reopening. He at first wasn't into just "close indoor dining" like he claims to be peddling now...he wanted everything shut and hard...the turning point came when he wanted to participate in an out of state tournament and Newsom was cracking down on travel sports (which IIRC was midway into the fall of 20 because sports were still shut down and the fall season didn't launch til spring of 21).


Your memory is correct Grace T.


----------



## crush

Pollo Elastico said:


> Your memory is correct Grace T.


Yes, Grace T has excellent memory and is right, again....!!!! We now have almost three years of avatars like dad who went all in with lockdown, full mask, no jab=no job, all deaths are Covid and now deaths are non of anyone's biz. MAGA sheep and for folks like crush lost the ability to make a living, earn a living wage and so much more. Small biz lost 2 years worth of $$$ and will never get back to the way things were.  Damage done forever and nowhere to get help. All help goes to students only and the teachers who teach them.  No jab. no kids allowed to play sports in college. The pressure to participate and be liked by the likes of these psychopaths on here is not worth it all at.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Never advocated schools or anything else closing.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> That's fair.  But the timing is everything.  You can say I supported school closures because I supported the closures in the spring of 20 but by summer had been advocating for their reopening.  He at first wasn't into just "close indoor dining" like he claims to be peddling now...he wanted everything shut and hard...the turning point came when he wanted to participate in an out of state tournament and Newsom was cracking down on travel sports (which IIRC was midway into the fall of 20 because sports were still shut down and the fall season didn't launch til spring of 21).
> 
> And BTW, not speaking up for school reopenings and remaining silent while the lockdown clan was calling for their closures is just a few degrees less bad than vocally calling for their closures.  As I recall, the rationalization was, to paraphrase, "adults are insisting on their bars and indoor dining" therefore Newsom didn't have a choice but to press the levers he did.  I know a conversation always degenerates and hits rock bottom when Nazis are mentioned, but I do point out that the defense "yeah I knew what the Nazis were doing but I never supported them and I myself never rounded them up" wasn't a very good defense either.


Shut everything and then open the safer stuff.   Sounds right for March 2020 through Feb 2021.  After Feb 2021 I was in favor of vaccine passports as a way to open places with higher transmission risk.

That is, of course, not what we did.  “Shut everything, then open the adult stuff.“ is a better description.


----------



## N00B

dad4 said:


> That is, of course, not what we did.  “Shut everything, then open the adult stuff.“ is a better description.


Not litigating the past like others, but it’s pretty clear who made those decisions on behalf of the public.

It was not the posters on this forum.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> After Feb 2021 I was in favor of vaccine passports as a way to open places with higher transmission risk.


So that is the authoritarian again in you. Papers to live ones life. Vaxx mandates. 

All things gov has backed off because it wasn't feasible, nor does it stop the spread.


----------



## N00B

Pollo Elastico said:


> All things gov has backed off because it wasn't feasible, nor does it stop the spread.


Reasons in the rear view mirror may appear more accurate than they are.


----------



## dad4

Pollo Elastico said:


> So that is the authoritarian again in you. Papers to live ones life. Vaxx mandates.
> 
> All things gov has backed off because it wasn't feasible, nor does it stop the spread.


And I thought they backed off because it was impossible to enforce without right wing idiots assaulting the wait staff.

You already carry papers.  Look in your wallet.  You have a little plastic card you bring out on request every time you board a plane or buy a beer.  You just don't whine about it.


----------



## Pollo Elastico

dad4 said:


> And I thought they backed off because it was impossible to enforce without right wing idiots assaulting the wait staff.
> 
> You already carry papers.  Look in your wallet.  You have a little plastic card you bring out on request every time you board a plane or buy a beer.  You just don't whine about it.


There you go again. 

You wanted authoritarian measures. Show your papers to prove you are vaxxed to do anything in society. It was a bad idea. Not enforceable because the majority of the population won't stand for it. That said variations were tried and people lost jobs because they didn't take a vax. You were all for those mandates. 

You were all for shuttering biz and putting people out of work. 
You were all for mandating vaxxes and people getting fired for not taking them. 

The list goes on. And it isn't pretty.


----------



## N00B

Pollo Elastico said:


> There you go again.
> 
> The list goes on. And it isn't pretty.


Person who sounds an awful lot like Crush,

No one is ‘going there again’ other than you.

-everyone


----------



## crush

The Plandemic is officially over according to FJB. Let's all go back to normal now. The last two and half years was just a bad nightmare. We all awake now!!!


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> Person who sounds an awful lot like Crush,
> 
> No one is ‘going there again’ other than you.
> 
> -everyone


There is only one crush N00B. It was good for all of us to take a break and do some self reflecting on the last 2 and half years. Red October starts on Sunday!!!


----------



## crush

*REPORT: Dr. Fauci’s Income Net Worth Nearly Doubled During Pandemic While 200,000 Small Businesses Closed Down Due to His Policies*


----------



## crush

Hello, where is everyone? What a nightmare for so many of us. I miss you all. We will get through this together, I promise  The last 5 years have been insane to say the least. I was out camping up in Mt Shasta two weeks ago and met a lovely "retired" couple next to us. The 74 year old lady was pissed off and grumpy the whole time though and is now looking to sell her 5th wheel because she has to go back to work and so does hubby. At least part time for now and if things continue the wrong way, she will be forced to work 40 hours a week again for a few years. Fixed retirement income can be a problem for some she said. They retired when they were 65. Yup, she said they had this retirement plan but that plan dropped over 30% from a few years ago +add inflation and they will have to work in their 80s and 90s if they don't do it now she said.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

The Great Reset | Bill Maher and Aaron Rogers | "Just About Every COVID Conspiracy Theory Came True"
					

********************************************************************************* Learn More About and Request Tickets to General Flynn and Clay Clark's ReAwaken America Tour Today by Clicking HERE: h




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

I'm starting to see some avatars show up. Let's get the party started. I got popcorn and healthy food. Red October is finally here. The Truth has been dripping slowly but surely. Now the drips will become faster drips and soon, so much Truth you won't know what to do with it, even if the Truth smacks you in da face. Throwback Thursday, baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!


----------



## crush

*Norwegian Cruise Line CEO announces end to all COVID requirements: It's a 'hindrance to business'*

I would also add it was a hindrance to unity and love in our country. Covid requirements was a nightmare to enforce and 100% the great divide over jab or no jab. Many folks chose the jabs to keep their job and status in society. Others said no to the jabs and got whacked for it. Kids lost two years of their life and were also told jab or no school for you. I hope the Truth will come out sooner rather than later. We need Honest, Open and Transparency in so many areas.


----------



## crush

BREAKING: Per the National Federation of State High School Associations, the number of participants in high school sports dropped by 320,000 after pandemic lockdowns. We have already seen, and will continue to see, the damaging effects of lockdowns.


----------



## crush

Thanks for all the texts and PMs you guys. It means a ton. I had no idea I was walking into a Dean full of Bears sleeping a few years ago. These are interesting times for all of us, especially our children. I forgive everyone and want peace. However, those who took the bribes and cheated need to pay it all back. Some are trapped in serious blackmail, like one of your kids threaten with a car accident death or some sort of EMW from da sky.


----------



## crush

What happen to Pox?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Look fella's and Grace T, I know Crow is hard to eat, trust me I've been there. After you eat your crow, go have some humble pie and get your ass back here to help fix our country. I love you all and together we will get through this.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

NEW - Canada: Alberta’s new Premier Danielle Smith on the unvaccinated: *"They have been the most discriminated against group that I’ve ever witnessed in my lifetime."*

Smith added she will fire provincial Chief Medical Officer of Health, Deena Hinshaw.


----------



## crush

The Flu is back. Amazing how it left us for two and half years.


----------



## crush

Time to wake up Sheep. I was always the black sheep in my family because I didn't like school.  Baaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa!!!!


----------



## crush

*How to eat Crow like a Pro!!!

*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*People who resisted COVID jabs are ‘superheroes’ who ‘embody the best of humanity’: French general*
'Even if I were fully vaccinated, I would admire the unvaccinated for standing up to the greatest pressure I have ever seen, including from spouses, parents, children, friends, colleagues, and doctors.'


----------



## crush




----------



## Grace T.

Uggg...didn't think I'd be here again....don't want to be...rumors abound that the CDC and ACIP are meeting and on the agenda is adding the COVID shot to the child immunization schedule.  The way laws work in several states (mostly blue, some red and purple), it means it's an easy backdoor way to mandate the vaccine for kids (depends how they do it.....if they do it like flu maybe not....but the rumors say that's not what they are planning to do) and university students.  The rumors are also flying that this is being pushed by Pfizer since the uptake in bivalent boosters generally, but particularly boosters among children, have been lagging and they need to push the stock pile to make numbers.  Furthermore, with the emergency ending, it leads into question the "emergency use authorization" hence the need to move it into something more lasting.  It's particularly infuriating given certain countries in Europe have expressly said because of the myocarditis risk the vaccines should NOT be pushed on children....some countries are expressly saying the mRNA vaccines are NOT recommended for the under 50.  And this is despite the fact that long term testing hasn't been done and it took the chickenpox vaccine, for example, more than 11 years to get approval (this point particularly irks me since I was a young adult victim of chicken pox that led to a very serious case and hospitalization despite the fact that at the time the EU had approved the chicken pox vaccine).

I really hope this is a case of the rumor being overblown, but given Pfizers behavior in all this and their pressing financial needs, I'm not so sure about this.  This would really be the last nail in the trust in public health coffin, and will spread vaccine skepticism to other needed vaccinations on the list.  I also think they are vastly underestimating the blow back they are about to receive...the skepticism about the vaccines has really bled beyond just antilockdowner twitter given the number of people who got the vaccine and wound up getting bad cases of COVID (not the sniffles) anyways....in my medical family I've seen faith in public health really shaken among people who were angry at me for my mask-skepticism lockdown-skepticism during the pandemic (my younger brother is still collecting on bets including a $1000 bottle of champagne against my head of cardiology uncle who told him with a 3rd shot he'd never get COVID).  We had made a lot of progress with the stupid vaccines cause autism argument....this will torch vaccines for generations to come if they do it.


----------



## baldref

Grace T. said:


> Uggg...didn't think I'd be here again....don't want to be...rumors abound that the CDC and ACIP are meeting and on the agenda is adding the COVID shot to the child immunization schedule.  The way laws work in several states (mostly blue, some red and purple), it means it's an easy backdoor way to mandate the vaccine for kids (depends how they do it.....if they do it like flu maybe not....but the rumors say that's not what they are planning to do) and university students.  The rumors are also flying that this is being pushed by Pfizer since the uptake in bivalent boosters generally, but particularly boosters among children, have been lagging and they need to push the stock pile to make numbers.  Furthermore, with the emergency ending, it leads into question the "emergency use authorization" hence the need to move it into something more lasting.  It's particularly infuriating given certain countries in Europe have expressly said because of the myocarditis risk the vaccines should NOT be pushed on children....some countries are expressly saying the mRNA vaccines are NOT recommended for the under 50.  And this is despite the fact that long term testing hasn't been done and it took the chickenpox vaccine, for example, more than 11 years to get approval (this point particularly irks me since I was a young adult victim of chicken pox that led to a very serious case and hospitalization despite the fact that at the time the EU had approved the chicken pox vaccine).
> 
> I really hope this is a case of the rumor being overblown, but given Pfizers behavior in all this and their pressing financial needs, I'm not so sure about this.  This would really be the last nail in the trust in public health coffin, and will spread vaccine skepticism to other needed vaccinations on the list.  I also think they are vastly underestimating the blow back they are about to receive...the skepticism about the vaccines has really bled beyond just antilockdowner twitter given the number of people who got the vaccine and wound up getting bad cases of COVID (not the sniffles) anyways....in my medical family I've seen faith in public health really shaken among people who were angry at me for my mask-skepticism lockdown-skepticism during the pandemic (my younger brother is still collecting on bets including a $1000 bottle of champagne against my head of cardiology uncle who told him with a 3rd shot he'd never get COVID).  We had made a lot of progress with the stupid vaccines cause autism argument....this will torch vaccines for generations to come if they do it.


it's always been about $$. the rest was bullshit.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> Uggg...didn't think I'd be here again....don't want to be...rumors abound that the CDC and ACIP are meeting and on the agenda is adding the COVID shot to the child immunization schedule.  The way laws work in several states (mostly blue, some red and purple), it means it's an easy backdoor way to mandate the vaccine for kids (depends how they do it.....if they do it like flu maybe not....but the rumors say that's not what they are planning to do) and university students.  The rumors are also flying that this is being pushed by Pfizer since the uptake in bivalent boosters generally, but particularly boosters among children, have been lagging and they need to push the stock pile to make numbers.  Furthermore, with the emergency ending, it leads into question the "emergency use authorization" hence the need to move it into something more lasting.  It's particularly infuriating given certain countries in Europe have expressly said because of the myocarditis risk the vaccines should NOT be pushed on children....some countries are expressly saying the mRNA vaccines are NOT recommended for the under 50.  And this is despite the fact that long term testing hasn't been done and it took the chickenpox vaccine, for example, more than 11 years to get approval (this point particularly irks me since I was a young adult victim of chicken pox that led to a very serious case and hospitalization despite the fact that at the time the EU had approved the chicken pox vaccine).
> 
> I really hope this is a case of the rumor being overblown, but given Pfizers behavior in all this and their pressing financial needs, I'm not so sure about this.  This would really be the last nail in the trust in public health coffin, and will spread vaccine skepticism to other needed vaccinations on the list.  I also think they are vastly underestimating the blow back they are about to receive...the skepticism about the vaccines has really bled beyond just antilockdowner twitter given the number of people who got the vaccine and wound up getting bad cases of COVID (not the sniffles) anyways....in my medical family I've seen faith in public health really shaken among people who were angry at me for my mask-skepticism lockdown-skepticism during the pandemic (my younger brother is still collecting on bets including a $1000 bottle of champagne against my head of cardiology uncle who told him with a 3rd shot he'd never get COVID).  We had made a lot of progress with the stupid vaccines cause autism argument....this will torch vaccines for generations to come if they do it.


----------



## crush

Ye just got sued for $250,000,000 and Alex Jones owes $1B for being wrong and even saying sorry for being with his voice. This is now almost 3 years folks. I tried to shed light on our slavery but no one would listen.  I came to planet lie to help all of you see the Truth.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




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## crush




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## crush




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## crush

CDC votes 15-0 and are forcing kids to jab up or no school. It's already jab up or no college. I sure hope some you get off fence and do something. I will pray for you all to do the right thing, unless you all want to be slaves and obey the master of the planet. Wake up people. Their after our children.


----------



## crush

Oh ya, I was in my car today and I think 75% of the ads on the radio are from Big Pharm and all about getting your kids jabbed and I new one I heard about for bad hearts. You can't sue either, unless Ye says something that hurts your feelings. This is not funny but people keep taking the ad spend $$$ from pharma.


----------



## crush

‘Fu*k Them’: NYC Mayor Official To Unvaxxed Public Sector Employees
					

Chris Baugh, Advance Team Aide, NYC Mayor Eric Adams: “I have no sympathy for them. They made a choice [not to get vaccinated]. They chose not to do a very harmless thing that protects the rest of soc




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

*Are any of you awake yet? *​


----------



## crush

Warning: Keep you kids home during Halloween. Satan and his crew have 100% put fentenlye in candy, like Skittles. These are monsters. Also, be careful of crazy ass teachers scaring kids. This one and 5 others got arrested thank God. What some monsters do to kids will make you all sick. Watch your kids is all I can say. Love you all!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Mad Hatter

Grace T. said:


> Uggg...didn't think I'd be here again....don't want to be...rumors abound that the CDC and ACIP are meeting and on the agenda is adding the COVID shot to the child immunization schedule.  The way laws work in several states (mostly blue, some red and purple), it means it's an easy backdoor way to mandate the vaccine for kids (depends how they do it.....if they do it like flu maybe not....but the rumors say that's not what they are planning to do) and university students.  The rumors are also flying that this is being pushed by Pfizer since the uptake in bivalent boosters generally, but particularly boosters among children, have been lagging and they need to push the stock pile to make numbers.  Furthermore, with the emergency ending, it leads into question the "emergency use authorization" hence the need to move it into something more lasting.  It's particularly infuriating given certain countries in Europe have expressly said because of the myocarditis risk the vaccines should NOT be pushed on children....some countries are expressly saying the mRNA vaccines are NOT recommended for the under 50.  And this is despite the fact that long term testing hasn't been done and it took the chickenpox vaccine, for example, more than 11 years to get approval (this point particularly irks me since I was a young adult victim of chicken pox that led to a very serious case and hospitalization despite the fact that at the time the EU had approved the chicken pox vaccine).
> 
> I really hope this is a case of the rumor being overblown, but given Pfizers behavior in all this and their pressing financial needs, I'm not so sure about this.  This would really be the last nail in the trust in public health coffin, and will spread vaccine skepticism to other needed vaccinations on the list.  I also think they are vastly underestimating the blow back they are about to receive...the skepticism about the vaccines has really bled beyond just antilockdowner twitter given the number of people who got the vaccine and wound up getting bad cases of COVID (not the sniffles) anyways....in my medical family I've seen faith in public health really shaken among people who were angry at me for my mask-skepticism lockdown-skepticism during the pandemic (my younger brother is still collecting on bets including a $1000 bottle of champagne against my head of cardiology uncle who told him with a 3rd shot he'd never get COVID).  We had made a lot of progress with the stupid vaccines cause autism argument....this will torch vaccines for generations to come if they do it.


Really very amazing. 

Kids and young adults have no real risk. 

The vax wont protect them because they already are not at risk. 

The vax doesnt stop or slow the spread of the virus. 

So there is no good reason to "recommend" the vax.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Never Forget What the Unvaccinated Had to Deal With folks. Now, some of my frens are having medical issues and some have died. Everyday I see a story of some teen falling over and just dying. "They" say, "We have no idea what happen." I don't post them everyday because it's not the point. However, so many of you two years ago always tried to say that all the deaths were from Covid. That was BS!!!!

Trudeau: "Getting that shot really was an amazing feeling — it hits you!"

NY Gov. Hochul: "I wear my vaccinated necklace all the time to say, 'I'm vaccinated.'"

Biden: "Everything is more complicated if you're not vaccinated in a hurricane."

Millions of People: "Just get the damn vaccine!"


----------



## Mad Hatter

Well due to our covid policies we have inflation at the highest we have seen in decades.

Interest rates are climbing steadily.

We now are hearing that the vax never stopped the spread. I remember a number of us pointing out that highly vaxed areas/states were experiencing large surges of infection. But dad and others said that was not the case. 

We fired people from jobs due to not taking a vax that for most of us doesnt make a difference and in fact does nothing to stop the spread. 

The pro shutdown people basically got everything wrong. 

The kids got screwed...and more and more evidence comes to light on this.









						Test scores show historic COVID setbacks for kids across US
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — The COVID-19 pandemic caused historic learning setbacks for America’s children, sparing no state or region as it erased decades of academic progress and widened racial disparities, according to results of a national test that provide the sharpest look yet at the scale of the...




					apnews.com


----------



## crush

Mad Hatter said:


> Well due to our covid policies we have inflation at the highest we have seen in decades.
> 
> Interest rates are climbing steadily.
> 
> We now are hearing that the vax never stopped the spread. I remember a number of us pointing out that highly vaxed areas/states were experiencing large surges of infection. But dad and others said that was not the case.
> 
> We fired people from jobs due to not taking a vax that for most of us doesnt make a difference and in fact does nothing to stop the spread.
> 
> The pro shutdown people basically got everything wrong.
> 
> The kids got screwed...and more and more evidence comes to light on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test scores show historic COVID setbacks for kids across US
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — The COVID-19 pandemic caused historic learning setbacks for America’s children, sparing no state or region as it erased decades of academic progress and widened racial disparities, according to results of a national test that provide the sharpest look yet at the scale of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


Where are they now Mad Hatter. I have never met so many weak men in my life!!!


----------



## crush

Unhinged Leftist Spits On Alex Stein
					

Chaos at Penn State University




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

*You are owned & being watched 24/7 by this guy, Klause, Soros & U know WHO*










						Jewish NWO Takeover Plan: 'Covid19 Convinces People To Accept Tyranny'
					

See Post: https://theserapeum.com/the-black-plague-poison-2-0-covid19-was-a-jewish-depopulation-plan/




					www.bitchute.com
				




I love you all and if I hurt your feelings the last few years, please forgive me. I was just trying to warn my fellow Americans. I would pray. I am here for anyone who has Q's about the new earth that is coming. The old earth is no more. We were all hoodwinked. We ALL got played. Planet Lie is no more and soon Planet Truth will rule this land. God Bless you and God Bless America. God wins!!!


----------



## crush

Ash Carter, Former Secretary of Defense Under Obama, Dead at 68 After Suffering "Sudden Cardiac Event"


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*New York Supreme Court reinstates all employees fired for being unvaccinated, orders backpay
The Supreme Court found that being vaccinated 'does not' stop the spread of COVID-19*


Small business will be next to get "back pay." This was done on purpose folks. I told all my small biz pals WHO lost EVERYTHING in this scam to not seek revenge. All will come back 10x fold. The story of the Rich dad and Lazarus will be witnessed by ALL those who are still alive.


----------



## crush

*Biden warns most COVID-related deaths this year will be result of people not being updated on their vaccines*


*"Virtually* every COVID death in America is preventable," Biden said during an afternoon press conference, standing alongside pharmacy leaders from Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid and Albertsons. "*Virtually* everyone, *almost* everyone who will die from COVID this year, will not be up-to-date on their shots."

*"If you get it, you’re protected.* And if you don’t, you’re putting yourself and other people unnecessarily at risk," Biden said, later adding, "*Nearly* every death is preventable, so get updated. *Get your updated *COVID shot. Now’s the time to do it,* by Halloween if you can.*" 

A study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) earlier this year found that more than *75% of COVID-19 deaths in fully vaccinated people had occurred among those with at least four comorbidities. *


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The rise in RSV is not surprising, but it is interesting that the same behaviors that appear to be responsible for causing the spike in RSV now are the ones suggested to mitigate it. The only thing that put a dent in the COVID curve was the vaccine. Viruses have been around for a while and all the masks in the world won't make them go away - as we have seen. Linus, your security blanket lives on.









						Pandemic 'immunity gap' is probably behind surge in RSV cases, scientists say | CNN
					

The measures that helped keep us safe from Covid-19 over the past 2½ years -- lockdowns, physical distancing, wearing masks, washing hands -- also helped limit the spread of other viruses. As people return to school and work and take off their masks, those viruses, including respiratory...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## crush

Soon and very soon we will ALL learn the Truth. This guy just did. Guess what is in his red folder? What is in your red folder?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This is how you eat crow. Yes, I tried to warn Ben & others this was a big fat lie. Maybe some of his advertisers worked for Big Pharma? 

After advocating for COVID-19 vaccination for over a year, Ben* Shapiro says* he was deceived: '*We were lied to by everyone'*

Plus FJB said this last year and with confidence in 2021,* "You're not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations." *All my liberal pals that I love in SOC all took these jabs. I warned them and begged them not to take the juice but they did and some even laughed at me (just like here at the forum) and some even told me I will die and I am just a loser and I should get a life. Three frens with heart attacks in the last year, one died, one has brain damage and one charged his diet and is doing way better. Stopped eating all that red meat and booze, go figure. Another fren on blood thinner and I know five people in last 6 months that died but no one will say how they died, except peacefully and naturally. Welcome to Planet Lie folks. That's right, the Father of Lies did a number on all of us. The Truth will not be for everyone but the truth is coming and NCSWISC, Nothing!


----------



## crush

*RIP Sir. I wish no one to die or suffer, crush. 

Former Dem Candidate Who Said ‘I Don’t Give A F**k What Happens to Anti-Vaxxers’ Died Suddenly While Walking Dog.*

“Let me be real clear….*I do not give a FUCK what happens to anti-vaxxers.* I dont. *Let Darwin do his work*. They helped kill 700,000 Americans. I do not have the pity or tears to spare for any of them. It’s all dried up now. Sorry. At this point. I’m just hoping they feel 1/10th of the pain they've caused everyone else. *The kids will be fine.* THEY’RE going to suffer. And I fucking well think they’ve earned it.”


----------



## crush

Are you compromised? Are you bought? You Bribed? Can you be blackmailed? If you want to get out of hell, follow Ye's lead.

Ye got himself out of hell you guys. Ye never killed someone like the others had to do to be in the club. They had no valuable blackmail that would send Ye to jail or something worse. Ye said this would happen look WHO has canceled him. No amount of money is worth trading your soul for. Go Ye!


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> Are you compromised? Are you bought? You Bribed? Can you be blackmailed? If you want to get out of hell, follow Ye's lead.
> 
> Ye got himself out of hell you guys. Ye never killed someone like the others had to do to be in the club. They had no valuable blackmail that would send Ye to jail or something worse. Ye said this would happen look WHO has canceled him. No amount of money is worth trading your soul for. Go Ye!


So you’re an antisemite too?


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> Go Ye!


So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air


----------



## crush

*When does a bird sing?

*


----------



## crush

*Twitters Biggest Left-Wing “Resist” Accounts Are Exposed As Frauds, After Democrat “Bot Machines” Go Dark*

Bot farms are for losers. Think about all the fake avatars and "bots" on the forum. I know for a fact a couple dudes on here played multiple accounts to make them feel relevant. Where are they now? The Light will always win!


----------



## crush

*How to Eat Crow like a Pro. True healing comes when you eat crow like Tim! I forgive you bro-

*

*Actor Tim Robbins Just Admitted The Truth About ‘Safe And Effective’ Covid Vaccines: ‘I Bought Into It. I Demonized People. I Was Guilty Of Everything That I Came To Understand Was Not Healthy’*


----------



## crush

A big shout out to all my brothers & sisters behind the scenes saving our country.. Happy 5th year birthday to the Q Army. I started to check all this out two years ago, after the first Rona Wave. We've all been a part of the greatest military sting OP ever. Get informed. This is just the beginning folks. God bless you all and don't forget to eat some crow


----------



## crush

*Let the good times roll!









						THE CARS - GOOD TIMES ROLL
					

THE SONG IS BY THE CARS - GOOD TIMES ROLL




					rumble.com
				



*


----------



## Kicker4Life

Somebody is a little desperate for attention….


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Happy Sunday to all of you. It's been a crazy last four years. The title of lesson today is called, "Who am I?"

Who am I? After 55 years of trying to figure out who I am and why I came to Planet Lie, I now know who I am. It was revealed to me during one of my Deep Dives and I wanted to share with all of you, who I am. First, let's go back to what others have said that I am. I am NOT what you say in your little brains I am but let's recap.

*Born 11-19-1966 at 11:00am ((Scorpio))*
I am just a cell
I am a foster care problem child
I am illegitimate 
I am unwanted
I am bastard child
I am a sinner
I am lost
I am going to hell
I am bad
I am out of control and can't sit still in class
I am disruptive
I am guilty
I am going to jail
I am white
I am stupid
I am a moron
I am on medication
I am delusional
I am damn fool
I am a racist
I am idiot
I am dumb
I am a dumb dumb
I am poor white trash
I am Anti-Semitic (first time ever in my life I was called that word)
I am I am I am I am I am I am. 
These are things that teachers have called me by the way. The cool thing is, It's all a big fat lie. 

*The Truth of Who I am*
I am Light, I am the light of my soul, I am loved, I am special, I am beautiful and wonderfully made, I am Bliss, I am saved & I am not going away!!! 
I am I am I am I am I am- I know words can hurt and I know we as people hurt people with our words of Magic. I also know words can heal. I am learning how to love my enemies and forgive those who have hurt me with their words and their cheating.* I forgive you* all for all the mean and hurtful things you have said to me the last 4 years on this forum. I hope you can forgive me as well. Where two fight, no one is right. I truly understand why you say mean things. This is one of my favorite songs. Get a head set on and listen deeply to, Who I AM and who you are as well. Were all beautiful. God bless you my forum family.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*I forgive you Emily and all the rest WHO got played and ruined my ability to make a living and be free. However, before amnesty is given, we need accountability first and swift justice to those WHO knowingly lied, cheated and stole our lives. RIP Pierre, Cathy and Coach-

*


----------



## crush

Lulu pulls off the upset at the last hour in brazil's "free & fair" election.


----------



## crush

Is everyone ready for a "fresh" start and just put Covid behind us so YOU can go back to the way things were? Joe would like us to put it all behind us. Thoughts? Where or where are my fence sitter frens? You guys, I know this is painful but people are being sent to jail right now for not giving up their sources and methods to catch the bad guys. You see, most are bought and some are even bots and many took the pay to play bribes & the bait and some unfortunately are being blackmailed unlike anything we have ever witnessed. 

*“As we enter this new moment in the battle against Covid, let’s use it to start fresh as a country, to put all of the old battles of Covid behind us, to put all the partisan politics aside.” President Joe*


----------



## crush

*It's just*​
It’s just 2 weeks to slow to the spread.
It’s just to keep everyone safe.
It’s just 6 feet.
It’s just a mask.
It’s just the schools.
It’s just the churches.
It’s just the small businesses.
It’s just 2 masks.
It’s just until we get the vaccine to market.
It’s just one shot.
It’s just two shots.
It’s just two shots and a booster.
It’s just another booster.
It’s just one more booster.
It’s just for the rest of your life.

Lol and they call me crazy? Anyone who endorsed this is freaking either bought with a job and their debt, bribed for more $$$$ and or blackmailed. I can;t think of any other reason. What about you?


----------



## crush

Welcome back Dr. Stella. That mean Husker Du needs to say sorry for calling you a witch doctor.


----------



## crush

His name is David, he's a friend- Police scanner


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

These people are sic!

*“You know what else is soft? Human flesh, baby flesh…. So innocent, so defenseless. The perfect size for a sacrifice.” *


----------



## crush




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## crush




----------



## crush

*TGIFF!




*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Make sure to make your voice counted and go vote. I think we should have "Election Day," everyone takes it off and goes and votes for their fav candidate. Hand ballet only. Maricopa County is having issues at a voting place. 25% of the vote is not being counted because of malfunction in the machine. So they take your bad ballet and put it in da box and then drive the box downtown for "processing & final count." The machines are not making things smooth and PA is saying it will take them days to finish the counting. Remember, whoever counts the final votes is what matters in the this game for power & control. Trust in the plan. I will go vote for the first time in a very long time and see what happens.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

At least their being honest and up front. President Biden told all of us last week to accept the results, no matter who counts the votes and how they count them & where they count them. STFU and do as the unelected pros tell you to do. STFU!!!!!  President Joe also said The MAGA's are the real problem but are a very small minority of crazy ass people who were also the one's WHO refused orders to obey and take all the jabs and wear mask, like Dad told us to do. Yes, they (we) got fired and lost their (our) revenue to grow business and were forced to shut down because they would not obey and take all the jabs and do as told. These are dangerous people you guys and you should stay clear of them. They think critically and ask way too may Qs. Crush is for peace btw, fairness and transparency. I have never been in a fight. I don;t have any weapons and stand for peace and using your voice to have open debate, without being threaten by rich dad because. No more cheating or buying what you want or being bought. This will end the bribe game and the blackmail that comes with it.  This type of behavior spills over to the rest of us just trying to survive and be good parents.  Pay to play must go. I pray today is first step in many that will end "Pay 2 Play" schemes that so many know how to play because they have the means and the heart to play that way.


----------



## crush

Breaking: Morning Joe is trying to help Mika out right now because she just said all "Christians" are the problem of todays ills. Morning Joe fella is trying to get Mika to distinguish between the "White Christian Nationalist" (WCN) and not lump the regular Joe Christian dude with the WCN crowd. The WCN is the cult followers and is a danger to Joe & Mika. Mika is flipping out today for some reason. If you believe in Christ and vote Trump you are in a cult + members of the cult and there lies the problems of our gr8t country, according to Mika. I guess some Christians are making fun of the Pelosi story and how things don't add up. Some dudes don't want to be controlled by biz folks and they get labeled names. FREEDOM or bust folks. I don't care if you play pay to play. It's not illegal and if that's how you get things in life, keep paying. I wish no harm to any human. Crush wants to crush hate and crush cheating and just live a life of Bliss  That's all I want + more adoptions and no abortions or a big cut back. Each State can decide how many weeks is too many to terminate the precious life of baby. Souls are lining up to come be born but man, some of these monsters are putting up a big fight to keep babies from being born. Crazy times we find ourselves. Go vote folks, it's all we got. Swamp the swamp with legal votes and then count only the legal votes.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Meh, Mask are coming back folks. I know I was born into this "Pay to Play" system but man, the cheating, lying, bribes, blackmail, brown nosing and money scams to make a buck and win are insane. I had no idea how many people were bought. I say let them cheat if they want to win so bad. It's not worth shedding blood over, that's for sure. My heart goes out to all of you that got tricked.


----------



## crush




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## crush




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## crush




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## crush

Oh, by the way frens, a cruise ship just reported 800 Covid 19 outbreaks in Sydney. Yikes!!! I know Grace T and all the other experts retired from the Vaccine section. Grace brought insights to the future from her perch regarding the schools. What you hearing girl about the return of the mask?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Dining on Lobster with his pals.


----------



## crush

Have you figured out WHO owns you yet? The patent on the jabs say something very scary about who owns your rights. You thought you were free, ya right. You were sold before you were born, let that sink in to your brains. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591945894764679170


----------



## crush

I hear Trump has a big announcement coming tomorrow. Any of you trolls have a guess what this is about?


----------



## crush

This is our beloved Joe before he has his meeting with Xi. Don't worry folks, keep working hard to pay off your debt. What a wonderful life 









						Biden struggles to even read pre-written notes telling him what to do
					

"Um.... uh.... I ca—having trouble reading this..."




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Thoughts Grace T? I don't think he will announce a 2024 run, moo!


----------



## crush

Yay Katie. AZ must be so proud. It only took 6 days for Katie to count all the votes.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

This dude from Ocean Beach went off the other day at meeting. People are pissed off about so many things. Nuremberg Code is heating up around the world!


----------



## crush

Bali 11/18/2022: Klause and his buddy Harari have more plans for all of you who obey your masters.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I’m surprised you’re even arguing about the t in Russia thing.
> 
> Any billionaire who travels to Russia or China should just assume they are being monitored.  Never mind political aspirations.  The possibility for industrial espionage or blackmail is just too high.


----------



## N00B

@crush … after two pages of posts, would you prefer to rename this thread to Crush’s Neighborhood or start your own?


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> @crush … after two pages of posts, would you prefer to rename this thread to Crush’s Neighborhood or start your own?


LOL, that's a funny @N00B... The bots and some people are reading them so I keep posting. I love attention because I was abandon and put through foster care system. It makes me 100% different then all of you. Trust me, if I didn't grow in views, Get amazing PMs and heartfelt messages, I would stop. It was over 4 years ago N00B that I lit this place on fire and added some spice (truth) to this place. We even had Fact and Fact Checkers check every freaking thing I said that was happening to OUR daughters in youth soccer. I actually care about how women and girls are treated in the sport and you can't deny that. It's all getting exposed. Politics and off topic talks, I walked away from in 1988. I was hard core Regan and anti abortion activist from 85-88 dude. I was intense. I then settled with the hard core Christians for 30+ years and never brought up politics because I was always bringing up Religion and one is enough. 2017 was when my world turned upside-down. Business, church and soccer all at the same time was taken away, all for different reasons but all had something to do with me turning away or covering my ears so I can pay to play at work, at church and help my dd play high level soccer. I pick myself up from a two year nightmare and rebuild some gr8t businesses and starting to see some amazing revenue but then Covid came and I was forced to make an either or decision. Get the jab or lose everything again. That was 2 and half years ago bro. Today, it's going better but still very hard to try again and build back better then what I had before the Rona and before 2017. Today is my birthday and I am very happy. I'm not rich with money at all and have no idea how I will survive. I am rich with the Truth though and I sleep like a baby. My wife is madly in love with me, my dd is super happy and my son will graduate college in 2023 and is happy. I have no fear. I hate pay to play and I hate how we teach that message. I want pay to play to 100% be abolished on this planet and everything based on Merit with Honesty, Openness and Transparency as the rules of the game. I feel I was born on a floating Casino and the "House" has the place rigged for the high rollers. Pay to Play means people are already selected because they paid the price to be selected to play this game. The world is one big offshore casino. Thanks for reading my life story on my birthday. 11am in 1966 baby crush was born. Someday you will learn how my adopted mother saved my ass because she listened to the voice. The things the dark side had planned for me was pure evil. Anyway, today is my special day. 56 years old bro and I feel blessed.


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## crush

Elon just baited the bots and it worked like Magic you guys. He did a poll to see how many wanted Trump back. He is running for office and Joe already has put his name in the hat and has 100% support from Nancy. It was 24 hour poll. Trump was up 70%+ and climbing. So just like they do in the election, they find votes from Bots. Online Bots are fake people used by a cell number with a cell phone at a bot farm. Millions of bots. Well, Elon fished many of them out and they will be blocked entry now. Trump has to be reinstated and should never have been censored from his true enemies. Dude was Commander in Chief and President and Jack, Mark and the other losers that were controlled by the 3 letter agency blocked a sitting US President. WTF do you all think would happen? Come on man, it's game time. Pay to play is over and you now must learn to play fair & square and no more cheating, no more back room deals, no more ass kissing and no more brown nosing to reach the top and so on.


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## crush

Hey N00B, check out these Q drops on my bday. You do know what my biggest bday wish would be, right? I do not follow Q and I am not one of those Anons. Anons are researchers and should never be called Qanons. That is just fake news lying again. I just like the clues from Q drops and the Anons and see if they come true and boy have they. The math is off the charts. Q drop #3605 is freaking blow away. I had no Ideal about until today now. Crazy but like my foster mom said to me, I was special and was brought here for a reason.


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## crush




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## crush




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## crush

*"Another damn vote for Lake?"*


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## crush

BREAKING: Fauci warns 'the real danger is in the people who have not been vaccinated'
*"The real danger is in the people who have not been vaccinated,"* Fauci said at his final press conference on Tuesday morning.

"Make sure to get your boosters" he says as he walks off into the $unset. Let's see how karma plays out for Doc. I feel amazing everyone. I have not been sick since 4th of July and then 1/20/20 had the Rona. I feel no danger and the family will all meet for Turkey Day. 2020, we did not meet because the Fraudster said it was too dangerous. Families said goodbye to loved one's outside of window at hospice. I held my mother all night with her oldest bloodline daughter. It was amazing and beautiful. I can't imagine her being all alone and me staring out a fucking window at 1am as she bit on her tongue and died all alone with no hugs and holding and music. I would not have been able to help her, wipe the blood from her mouth and offer some morphine to help with her pain & tell her, "Thank you Bette for saving my life and adopting me through foster care and I LOVE YOU AND I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE YOU AGAIN." 2021 it was better but we were divided because of the dividers, who are total assholes. 2022 will be amazing and loving.  Have a gr8t week everyone


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## crush

Rules for us and the truth for dear pals. This is evil folks. I'm praying for everyone WHO took this poison. 

*Fauci emailed friend saying masks were ‘ineffective,’ pushed for mandates anyway, Missouri AG says*

Another tidbit from Fauci depo: In Feb ‘20 he emailed a friend advising her masks were ineffective. Confirmed again on Mar 31. On Apr 3 he’s adamant masks should be worn even though he couldn’t cite a single study to prove it. Mandates followed—Lives ruined COVID tyranny is born


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## crush

*Yikes!!! Pay to play was everywhere in our lives.*


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## crush




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## crush

How any of you believe this man has me SMFH. I pray for all of you. I have much compassion on you guys. Spring Boosters might be the call next year because you never know when a new variant (wave) will pop up in Spring time. Watch what you put in your blood. I don't share anymore about SADS. It's everywhere now. I love you all!









						Fauci Says We May Need to Go Back to Multiple COVID Shots Each Year
					

“You have to keep up the possibility that we will get a variant that’s very different than the variants we have right now that might require a springtime or summertime boost.”




					rumble.com


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## crush




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## crush




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## crush

*Coming soon to a screen near you, "The Twitter Files."*


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## crush




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## crush

Yuval Noah Harari | "Ideally the Response to COVID Should Be the Establishment of a Global Healthcare System. COVID Legitimizes the Deployment of Mass Surveillance Even In Democratic Countries and It Makes Surveillance Go Under Your Skin."
					

Watch the Original November 23rd 2022 Interview / Presentation by Yuval Noah Harari - The Politics of Consciousness | video lecture with Yuval Noah Harari - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rtS2OEV6bM




					rumble.com


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## crush




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## crush

Welcome to the club Doc. Being Blacklisted is not fun at the time but man, it sure is 100% worth every pain it comes with. The question is, why? Why blackilist someone? This is not "The List" we had in mine back in 2016 but I completely get it now.









						'Twitter files' confirm Stanford professor Dr. Jay Bhattacharya was 'blacklisted' for COVID-19 information
					

Reports confirm Stanford University professor of medicine Dr. Jay Bhattacharya was one of many users on Twitter's "blacklist" for his thoughts on COVID-19 lockdowns and policies.




					www.foxnews.com


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## crush

Elon is removing 1,500,000,000 ((1.5B) fake accounts or bots. I'm sure Dom had to remove a few on here as well. Yay, finally can start debating people as they did in the old days. We will all find out what these monster, cheaters and liars are actually a very small number, less than 1% but with bots they rule the world.


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## crush

Twitter say's goodbye Jim Carey and now Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. This is classic......


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## crush

Jack lied to the American people, why?


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## crush

RIP Grant 








						American soccer journalist Grant Wahl dies while covering FIFA World Cup in Qatar
					

Grant Wahl, famed American soccer journalist, died while covering the FIFA World Cup in Qatar at age 48, his brother believes he was killed and is pleading for help.




					www.foxnews.com


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## crush




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## crush




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## crush




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## crush




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## crush

*Boom!!! Let's all use our little brains today 10-12-2022. Do you think Elon is acting alone or does he have help to decide what to write? *


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## crush




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## crush

Woof, woof!! I tried to warn you all.


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## crush

RIP Mike Leach!!!


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## crush

American colleges mandate updated COVID-19 booster shot, student says it's 'out of line'
					

Several American colleges are mandating students receive an updated COVID-19 booster shot, but some are pushing back, stating that the mandate is "out of line" with what other schools are doing.




					www.foxnews.com


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## crush

First it was no jab or your fired or lose the ability to run a small business or no college for your kids unless they get fully jabbed. Now it's no jab, higher insurance.....lol!









						Study suggesting unvaccinated should pay higher car insurance premiums draws outrage
					

A Canadian study that claimed the unvaccinated were more at risk for car accidents and should potentially pay higher insurance rates drew widespread outrage.




					www.foxnews.com


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## crush

*Woof woof!!!*












						COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
					

Republican House Intelligence Committee members allege in a report that there are indications that COVID-19 could be tied to China’s biological weapons research program.




					www.foxnews.com


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## crush




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## crush

*1-(800) TDS-HELP*


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## crush




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## crush

Another kid gets a heart attack. This sucks!









						I will tell you as a cardiologist, it is crystal clear that these vaccines cause myocarditis.
					

”I will tell you as a cardiologist, it is crystal clear that these vaccines cause myocarditis. Under ANY circumstances should a young person ever receive one of these vaccines - One death is too many” ~Dr. McCullough  https://t.me/SGTnewsNetwork/3…




					www.bitchute.com


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## crush




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## crush

It's with heavy heart that I say goodbye to my adopted nephew Dave. He was more like a brother to me. He passed away last night by fentanyl poison pill. He was a good soul. He became a plumber back in the day and had a severe back injury on the job. Big U was looking for guinea pigs to try new fusion technology and he volunteered. 3 surgeries later with no success, he was put on lifetime disability and morphine. Well, his pill doc cut him off last week and he went looking for pain relief and took a bad pill, laced to kill. RIP bro!


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## crush




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## Mad Hatter

"No study in the world that shows that masks work that well".

Of course we knew this since the beginning.
@Dad is probably still wearing his now.









						Video: Biden COVID Czar FINALLY Admits the Truth About Masks | Frontpage Mag
					

"There's no study in the world that shows that masks work that well."




					www.frontpagemag.com


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## espola

Mad Hatter said:


> "No study in the world that shows that masks work that well".
> 
> Of course we knew this since the beginning.
> @Dad is probably still wearing his now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video: Biden COVID Czar FINALLY Admits the Truth About Masks | Frontpage Mag
> 
> 
> "There's no study in the world that shows that masks work that well."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frontpagemag.com


Headline doesn't fairly represent the content.


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## crush

Mad Hatter said:


> "No study in the world that shows that masks work that well".
> 
> Of course we knew this since the beginning.
> @Dad is probably still wearing his now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video: Biden COVID Czar FINALLY Admits the Truth About Masks | Frontpage Mag
> 
> 
> "There's no study in the world that shows that masks work that well."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frontpagemag.com


Mask makes people feel safe and for some, its virture signaling. I thank everyone who wears a mask for the cause


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## Mad Hatter

espola said:


> Headline doesn't fairly represent the content.


It absolutely does. 

The Covid guy in the WH made that exact statement. This is the guy that looks at the numbers/data etc and gives advice to the Prez.


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## Mad Hatter

By the way...@dad liked the Chinese plan.

Now that they have given up on covid zero they virus is spreading like wildfire through the population. Hospitals, etc are overflowing.

They would have been past this long ago had they just realized you cannot stop a respiratory virus. One might say their lockdowns created harm and just postponed the inevitable.



			China grapples massive COVID wave with full emergency wards and crowded crematoriums: 'Many people dying'
		










						One-day tally of COVID cases in China hits 37 million: Report
					

The latest figures deviate significantly from official data sparking concerns over China’s transparency on the issue.




					www.aljazeera.com


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## thirteenknots

Mad Hatter said:


> By the way...@dad liked the Chinese plan.
> 
> Now that they have given up on covid zero they virus is spreading like wildfire through the population. Hospitals, etc are overflowing.
> 
> They would have been past this long ago had they just realized you cannot stop a respiratory virus. One might say their lockdowns created harm and just postponed the inevitable.
> 
> 
> 
> China grapples massive COVID wave with full emergency wards and crowded crematoriums: 'Many people dying'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One-day tally of COVID cases in China hits 37 million: Report
> 
> 
> The latest figures deviate significantly from official data sparking concerns over China’s transparency on the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aljazeera.com



*GROUNDHOG DAY.......*


WEF just dropped Twitter for.......Chinese Apps.
All you need to know.
Biden Administration will lock down America in 3, 2, 1..............


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## espola

Mad Hatter said:


> It absolutely does.
> 
> The Covid guy in the WH made that exact statement. This is the guy that looks at the numbers/data etc and gives advice to the Prez.


He stated that masks won't work without proper ventilation.  The headline snipped that down to "masks don't work".

Is that too hard for you to figure out?  Or are you just lying on purpose?

It was nice of Grace to give you a like -- but it's what she does.


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> He stated that masks won't work without proper ventilation.  The headline snipped that down to "masks don't work".
> 
> Is that too hard for you to figure out?  Or are you just lying on purpose?
> 
> It was nice of Grace to give you a like -- but it's what she does.


Not what was said in the video Magoo!  He said we could cut respiratory infections by improving ventilation systems, then went on to say, “there is not study in the world that shows masks work that well.”  Now is he comparing proper ventilation against masking when it comes to reducing respiratory infections when he makes that statement, maybe.

but the headline says exactly what he said in the video. At no time does he say masks won’t work without proper ventilation.
Unless I watched the wrong video.


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Not what was said in the video Magoo!  He said we could cut respiratory infections by improving ventilation systems, then went on to say, “there is not study in the world that shows masks work that well.”  Now is he comparing proper ventilation against masking when it comes to reducing respiratory infections when he makes that statement, maybe.
> 
> but the headline says exactly what he said in the video. At no time does he say masks won’t work without proper ventilation.
> Unless I watched the wrong video.


"Party on, Shriners!" -- G. Carlin


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> "Party on, Shriners!" -- G. Carlin


So that’s your, “oops, my bad?”


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## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Not what was said in the video Magoo!  He said we could cut respiratory infections by improving ventilation systems, then went on to say, “there is not study in the world that shows masks work that well.”  Now is he comparing proper ventilation against masking when it comes to reducing respiratory infections when he makes that statement, maybe.
> 
> but the headline says exactly what he said in the video. At no time does he say masks won’t work without proper ventilation.
> Unless I watched the wrong video.


In other words, masks reduce infections, proper ventilation also reduces infections, and the second effect is larger than the first.

None of that is news.  The only remaining question is whether we will decide that installing air filters is more fun than getting the flu every year.  It would be smart of us, but we probably won't do it.


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## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> In other words, masks reduce infections, proper ventilation also reduces infections, and the second effect is larger than the first.
> 
> None of that is news.  The only remaining question is whether we will decide that installing air filters is more fun than getting the flu every year.  It would be smart of us, but we probably won't do it.


Yes…proper ventilation is better than masks.

Have you historically gotten the flu every year? 

If we’ve learned anything from Covid it’s that you can’t hide from viruses


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## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> In other words, masks reduce infections, proper ventilation also reduces infections, and the second effect is larger than the first.
> 
> None of that is news.  The only remaining question is whether we will decide that installing air filters is more fun than getting the flu every year.  It would be smart of us, but we probably won't do it.


Masks don't do anything. 

Prior to covid the CDC had decades of studies showing just that. 

We just went through 2-3 years of masking up around the world. What did we see? Masked or not the virus spread....which isnt a suprise since the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses. 

If in the past few years with billions of people wearing masks, had they made a difference you would by now have seen many studies showing their effectiveness. 

I suspect the WH covid advisor is being generious when he says no studies show they do much good. If they could show they made a difference they would point to those studies. They cannot. 

Does effective ventilation help? I would think that it does. 

But the masks and them working should have been put to be a long time ago.


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> So that’s your, “oops, my bad?”


No, that's Carlin's invitation to those who don't recognize their own ignorance to please continue.

Is it your position that frontpagemag didn't snip those few seconds from a longer interview?

It's as if I had posted "Masks don't work if you don't wear them" and someone like you or Grace retorted with "Espola says masks don't work".


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> No, that's Carlin's invitation to those who don't recognize their own ignorance to please continue.
> 
> Is it your position that frontpagemag didn't snip those few seconds from a longer interview?
> 
> It's as if I had posted "Masks don't work if you don't wear them" and someone like you or Grace retorted with "Espola says masks don't work".


It’s my position that the interview states what states. Not what you assumed it stated.


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## espola

Mad Hatter said:


> Masks don't do anything.
> 
> Prior to covid the CDC had decades of studies showing just that.
> 
> We just went through 2-3 years of masking up around the world. What did we see? Masked or not the virus spread....which isnt a suprise since the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> If in the past few years with billions of people wearing masks, had they made a difference you would by now have seen many studies showing their effectiveness.
> 
> I suspect the WH covid advisor is being generious when he says no studies show they do much good. If they could show they made a difference they would point to those studies. They cannot.
> 
> Does effective ventilation help? I would think that it does.
> 
> But the masks and them working should have been put to be a long time ago.


This is the kind of foolishness that crap like the frontpagemag clip leads to.


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> It’s my position that the interview states what states. Not what you assumed it stated.


Party on, Shriner.


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## Kicker4Life

Mad Hatter said:


> Masks don't do anything.
> 
> Prior to covid the CDC had decades of studies showing just that.
> 
> We just went through 2-3 years of masking up around the world. What did we see? Masked or not the virus spread....which isnt a suprise since the masks are not designed to stop respiratory viruses.
> 
> If in the past few years with billions of people wearing masks, had they made a difference you would by now have seen many studies showing their effectiveness.
> 
> I suspect the WH covid advisor is being generious when he says no studies show they do much good. If they could show they made a difference they would point to those studies. They cannot.
> 
> Does effective ventilation help? I would think that it does.
> 
> But the masks and them working should have been put to be a long time ago.


Please add, “Vaxxed or not the virus spread” to your statement.


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## thirteenknots

espola said:


> He stated that masks won't work without proper ventilation.  The headline snipped that down to "masks don't work".
> 
> Is that too hard for you to figure out?  Or are you just lying on purpose?
> 
> It was nice of Grace to give you a like -- but it's what she does.



YOU Adam " Espola " Schiff are a LIAR !

Masks DO NOT WORK in stopping the spread of the Covid/SARS-19 Virus.
The mRNA Fauci Clot Shot does NOT Work.
And YOU know it.

You get paid a Democrat/NGO stipend check to spout absolute LIES about
any subject the counters the TRUTH about the DNC criminal actions.

STFU and eat your oatmeal.


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> This is the kind of foolishness that crap like the frontpagemag clip leads to.


What part exactly is “foolish crap”?


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> What part exactly is “foolish crap”?


Start with "Masks don't do anything".


----------



## Grace T.

Mad Hatter said:


> By the way...@dad liked the Chinese plan.
> 
> Now that they have given up on covid zero they virus is spreading like wildfire through the population. Hospitals, etc are overflowing.
> 
> They would have been past this long ago had they just realized you cannot stop a respiratory virus. One might say their lockdowns created harm and just postponed the inevitable.
> 
> 
> 
> China grapples massive COVID wave with full emergency wards and crowded crematoriums: 'Many people dying'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One-day tally of COVID cases in China hits 37 million: Report
> 
> 
> The latest figures deviate significantly from official data sparking concerns over China’s transparency on the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aljazeera.com


Some projections are saying a million dead by the time their waves are over. Pictures coming out of the hospitals and morgues full. 3 years of the harshest lockdowns on the planet and they did it all for nothing. Those mandatory masks are also really helping.  

it’s the final bankruptcy of covidian policy. They can stare at their failure and be aghast at their hubris but we all know they won’t learn anything.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Start with "Masks don't do anything".


OK….I can agree with that.  They were over hyped as was the Vax. Anything else?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Some projections are saying a million dead by the time their waves are over. Pictures coming out of the hospitals and morgues full. 3 years of the harshest lockdowns on the planet and they did it all for nothing. Those mandatory masks are also really helping.
> 
> it’s the final bankruptcy of covidian policy. They can stare at their failure and be aghast at their hubris but we all know they won’t learn anything.


True. It's never been about learning. It's been about fear and power. The worst part is that as big of a failure of leadership that we experienced w.r.t. handling the virus, it pales in comparison to the long-term damage the enforcement of the policies caused in terms of the trust lost in our government and the agencies responsible for protecting us.


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## crush

"We have had enough mama!" The Kids
"Get your boosters before you come over for Christmas" mom









						MSNBC contributor Katty Kay was 'appalled' her kids refused COVID boosters before holidays
					

An MSNBC contributor voiced disbelief after her children reportedly refused to have further vaccinations against COVID before the holidays.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

I guess Espola & Dad are 100% in the Dr. Fruads Fan Club.


----------



## crush

Why? Please ask yourself why they did this to US? 









						10-Minute Summary Of U.S. Senator Ron Johnson's 3-Hour Washington D.C. COVID-19 Roundtable Meeting
					

Summary of U.S. Sen. Ron Johnson's roundtable discussion on COVID-19 Vaccines: What They Are, How They Work, and Possible Causes of Injuries, to shed light on the current state of knowledge surroundin




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

Hey Dom, I double checked to make sure this was a real twit from Elon.


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## crush

I see that most of you are finally waking up. My best Lib pal is now pissed off for being played. My other pals are dead and cant get pissed off but their kids are mad as hell. Why did they go to such levels as to lie and deceive us? Why is the critical Q of the day. I love you and risked EVERYTHING to warn you. I lost frens and means to earn a living to speak out.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Yes…proper ventilation is better than masks.
> 
> Have you historically gotten the flu every year?
> 
> If we’ve learned anything from Covid it’s that you can’t hide from viruses


You claim you “can’t hide from viruses“.

Did you get the flu in 2020-21?  How about 21-22?

Pay attention.  Most of California successfully “hid“ from the flu and common cold for a good two years.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You claim you “can’t hide from viruses“.
> 
> Did you get the flu in 2020-21?  How about 21-22?
> 
> Pay attention.  Most of California successfully “hid“ from the flu and common cold for a good two years.


Not just California -- the whole country.  So low it couldn't be accurately measured --

"** Estimates are not available for the 2020-2021 flu season due to minimal influenza activity. "

Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden | CDC


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> You claim you “can’t hide from viruses“.
> 
> Did you get the flu in 2020-21?  How about 21-22?
> 
> Pay attention.  Most of California successfully “hid“ from the flu and common cold for a good two years.


Which lead to a more severe RSV outbreak in 2022.  

duh….can’t hide


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Which lead to a more severe RSV outbreak in 2022.
> 
> duh….can’t hide


Correlation does not prove causation.

Of course, if you can prove that, nominate yourself for a Nobel Prize in Medicine.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Correlation does not prove causation.
> 
> Of course, if you can prove that, nominate yourself for a Nobel Prize in Medicine.


Kicker has a valid point.   We did get 2-3 years worth of initial RSV infections, all crammed into one year.  And it was a downside of distance and masking.

It's just not a large enough point to draw his conclusion.   Even counting the spike, annual deaths from RSV are about 2% of annual deaths from Covid.    We could rewrite our Covid policy to avoid RSV spikes, but that's really letting the tail wag the dog.

It's a low stakes version of what China is going through.  Take the lid off, and cases expand.  Not a huge deal when it's RSV.  Pretty brutal when it's Covid and your elderly are unvaccinated / poorly vaccinated.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Kicker has a valid point.   We did get 2-3 years worth of initial RSV infections, all crammed into one year.  And it was a downside of distance and masking.
> 
> It's just not a large enough point to draw his conclusion.   Even counting the spike, annual deaths from RSV are about 2% of annual deaths from Covid.    We could rewrite our Covid policy to avoid RSV spikes, but that's really letting the tail wag the dog.
> 
> It's a low stakes version of what China is going through.  Take the lid off, and cases expand.  Not a huge deal when it's RSV.  Pretty brutal when it's Covid and your elderly are unvaccinated / poorly vaccinated.


I do point out that rsv kills anywhere from 100-300 children in a regular year which makes it a bigger problem in kids than the Covid death rate, particularly among young kids. So if we care about the young (who have a lot more years of life than the elderly being affected post-vaccine) it wouldn’t really be tail wagging the dog. 

I also point out that there are a staggering 150,000 hospitalizations for rsv every year, the vast majority of them pediatric. If you care about hospital capacity (which was a key tenet of your preaching early on) that would also suggest avoiding these bubble years is a good idea

iirc an mRNA rsv vaccine is in the works. Sadly even if they do their long term testing like they did for the varicella vaccine (a sore spot for me since I came down with life threatening chicken pox in my 20s a year shy of the vaccine being approved in the us and a few years after eu approval) I doubt there will be many takers after the Covid vaccine fiascos.


----------



## crush

Grace T. said:


> I do point out that rsv kills anywhere from 100-300 children in a regular year which makes it a bigger problem in kids than the Covid death rate, particularly among young kids. So if we care about the young (who have a lot more years of life than the elderly being affected post-vaccine) it wouldn’t really be tail wagging the dog.
> 
> I also point out that there are a staggering 150,000 hospitalizations for rsv every year, the vast majority of them pediatric. If you care about hospital capacity (which was a key tenet of your preaching early on) that would also suggest avoiding these bubble years is a good idea
> 
> iirc an mRNA rsv vaccine is in the works. Sadly even if they do their long term testing like they did for the varicella vaccine (a sore spot for me since I came down with life threatening chicken pox in my 20s a year shy of the vaccine being approved in the us and a few years after eu approval) I doubt there will be many takers after the Covid vaccine fiascos.


Welcome back sister. Go get em


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

So, how long until one of you libertarians figures out that ventilation upgrades are just one more example of something that might be mandated?

They’re just one more example of something with a private cost and a public health benefit.  Same as masks and vaccines.  Or sewers, for that matter.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> So, how long until one of you libertarians figures out that ventilation upgrades are just one more example of something that might be mandated?
> 
> They’re just one more example of something with a private cost and a public health benefit.  Same as masks and vaccines.  Or sewers, for that matter.


I read somewhere that ancient sewers are the earliest signs of a proper civilization.  In my lifetime I have seen sewers advance from a ditch or pipe that just dumped the waste downstream from town to high-tech plants that produce drinkable water as a byproduct.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> Not just California -- the whole country.  So low it couldn't be accurately measured --
> 
> "** Estimates are not available for the 2020-2021 flu season due to minimal influenza activity. "
> 
> Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden | CDC



One more time YOU validate which side of the playing field you're
on.

The Communist side.

The Lying CDC is your posted source.


----------



## thirteenknots

espola said:


> I read somewhere that ancient sewers are the earliest signs of a proper civilization.  In my lifetime I have seen sewers advance from a ditch or pipe that just dumped the waste downstream from town to high-tech plants that produce drinkable water as a byproduct.


In your " Lifetime "....

You've posted continuously that you were raised in the North East....




I think you're full of " Crap ".....


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> They’re just one more example of something with a private cost and a public health benefit. Same as masks and vaccines.


No. 

Masks dont work. 

Mandating a vax is pointless as well. It doesn't stop the spread of the virus which in theory is the reason to mandate a vax. And furthermore only a small segment of the population really needs it.

We also keep seeing more things to not like about side affects from the various versions of the vax. 

Europe realizes there is no benefit having kids get vaxxed and they ( a growing number of them) actively recommend not getting it. 

And for some strange reason our CDC wants kids to get vaxxed. 

The more info that comes out...the worse shutdowns, school closures, manding vaxxes etc look to be.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> I read somewhere that ancient sewers are the earliest signs of a proper civilization.  In my lifetime I have seen sewers advance from a ditch or pipe that just dumped the waste downstream from town to high-tech plants that produce drinkable water as a byproduct.


I was thinking more recently, when London forced all landlords to pay huge assessments to pay for creating a sewer system to fight cholera.  I can imagine the complaints against the clearly unfair government mandate:

“Why should I pay 500 pounds to connect my building to the sewer?“.   “Those who want sewers can get sewers.”.   “Cholera will do what it wants.  Pipes in the ground aren’t won’t stop it.”.  

The anti-sewer crowd even had a list of well respected doctors who calmly (but wrongly) explained that cholera was spread by the airborne miasma in overcrowded slums.


Grace T. said:


> I do point out that rsv kills anywhere from 100-300 children in a regular year which makes it a bigger problem in kids than the Covid death rate, particularly among young kids. So if we care about the young (who have a lot more years of life than the elderly being affected post-vaccine) it wouldn’t really be tail wagging the dog.
> 
> I also point out that there are a staggering 150,000 hospitalizations for rsv every year, the vast majority of them pediatric. If you care about hospital capacity (which was a key tenet of your preaching early on) that would also suggest avoiding these bubble years is a good idea
> 
> iirc an mRNA rsv vaccine is in the works. Sadly even if they do their long term testing like they did for the varicella vaccine (a sore spot for me since I came down with life threatening chicken pox in my 20s a year shy of the vaccine being approved in the us and a few years after eu approval) I doubt there will be many takers after the Covid vaccine fiascos.


You’re having trouble with questions of scale. 

There were 36.2 million hospital admissions in 2019.  150,000 per year is not “staggering”.   It's about 0.4% of all hospitalizations.

150,000 hospitalizations is also pretty close to a bad winter week of post-pandemic covid.   (153K for the week of Jan 15, 2022 )


----------



## dad4

Mad Hatter said:


> No.
> 
> Masks dont work.
> 
> Mandating a vax is pointless as well. It doesn't stop the spread of the virus which in theory is the reason to mandate a vax. And furthermore only a small segment of the population really needs it.
> 
> We also keep seeing more things to not like about side affects from the various versions of the vax.
> 
> Europe realizes there is no benefit having kids get vaxxed and they ( a growing number of them) actively recommend not getting it.
> 
> And for some strange reason our CDC wants kids to get vaxxed.
> 
> The more info that comes out...the worse shutdowns, school closures, manding vaxxes etc look to be.


You're not even the first to play this game.  There were plenty of people in the 1800s who were certain that mandatory sewer connections would never do anything to stop cholera.    They even had doctors and out of date scientific articles explaining why sewers would never work.

Same thing happened with the smallpox vaccine.  Right down to vaccine mandates and the claim that "only a small segment of the population really needs it".

We get this every time there is a need for a public health measure.  There are some fools who just don't want to do it, and those people parrot anyone willing to tell them what they want to hear.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> I was thinking more recently, when London forced all landlords to pay huge assessments to pay for creating a sewer system to fight cholera.  I can imagine the complaints against the clearly unfair government mandate:
> 
> “Why should I pay 500 pounds to connect my building to the sewer?“.   “Those who want sewers can get sewers.”.   “Cholera will do what it wants.  Pipes in the ground aren’t won’t stop it.”.
> 
> The anti-sewer crowd even had a list of well respected doctors who calmly (but wrongly) explained that cholera was spread by the airborne miasma in overcrowded slums.
> 
> You’re having trouble with questions of scale.
> 
> There were 36.2 million hospital admissions in 2019.  150,000 per year is not “staggering”.   It's about 0.4% of all hospitalizations.
> 
> 150,000 hospitalizations is also pretty close to a bad winter week of post-pandemic covid.   (153K for the week of Jan 15, 2022 )


The London sewers were a great improvement over the previous technology (open ditches and backyard privies), but they still just dumped the untreated sewage in the Thames sufficiently downstream from London that it would not be carried back up by the tides.


----------



## crush

*Happy Karma 2023!*


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> You're not even the first to play this game. There were plenty of people in the 1800s who were certain that mandatory sewer connections would never do anything to stop cholera. They even had doctors and out of date scientific articles explaining why sewers would never work.
> 
> Same thing happened with the smallpox vaccine. Right down to vaccine mandates and the claim that "only a small segment of the population really needs it".


Clinging to straws I see. Consistent in your religious belief. 

Sewers vs masks. Sewers work. Masks dont. 

So your analogy doesnt work there. 

Small pox vax vs covid. One worked at both preventing the disease and stopping the spread. The other does not. 

You analogy fails again. 

I wish the vax prevented the spread. It doesn't. I wish it stopped people from getting infected. It doesn't. For the very vulnerable it does lessen the affects of the virus and that is good. 

That is vastly different from the smallpox vax. 

That reality also completely washes away the rationale for mandating the vax which you are a big fan of.


----------



## dad4

Mad Hatter said:


> Clinging to straws I see. Consistent in your religious belief.
> 
> Sewers vs masks. Sewers work. Masks dont.
> 
> So your analogy doesnt work there.
> 
> Small pox vax vs covid. One worked at both preventing the disease and stopping the spread. The other does not.
> 
> You analogy fails again.
> 
> I wish the vax prevented the spread. It doesn't. I wish it stopped people from getting infected. It doesn't. For the very vulnerable it does lessen the affects of the virus and that is good.
> 
> That is vastly different from the smallpox vax.
> 
> That reality also completely washes away the rationale for mandating the vax which you are a big fan of.


Wait.  You think the smallpox vax "stopped" all infection and "prevented" all disease?

It was never above 95% effective, and the immunity faded with time.  Just like every other vaccine.


----------



## espola

Mad Hatter said:


> Clinging to straws I see. Consistent in your religious belief.
> 
> Sewers vs masks. Sewers work. Masks dont.
> 
> So your analogy doesnt work there.
> 
> Small pox vax vs covid. One worked at both preventing the disease and stopping the spread. The other does not.
> 
> You analogy fails again.
> 
> I wish the vax prevented the spread. It doesn't. I wish it stopped people from getting infected. It doesn't. For the very vulnerable it does lessen the affects of the virus and that is good.
> 
> That is vastly different from the smallpox vax.
> 
> That reality also completely washes away the rationale for mandating the vax which you are a big fan of.


Your desperate denial reminds me of Monty Python's Black Knight -- "Just a flesh wound".


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

*Winter Wave Surge Warning!!!!

The new Omicron subvariant XBB.1.5 has hit our shores. What you must know now*
*The XBB mutation accounts for almost 41% of confirmed COVID-19 cases nationwide*

I heard another radio ad pushing boosters yesterday and to wear a mask when you feel sick and your just out and about. My advice ((I am not a doctor so take with a grain of salt and your fav shot)) when your feeling flu like symptoms; keep your ass at home, close your freaking bedroom door, take the many *combat flu killer medicines* that is best for you and then sleep it off, alone and away from others. Wash hands all the time, drink lots of water and live the BRAT way.  Don't go out in public and be a super hero wearing your mask for all to see how virtuous you are.


----------



## crush

The Inventor says..........


----------



## Kicker4Life

[


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Wait.  You think the smallpox vax "stopped" all infection and "prevented" all disease?
> 
> It was never above 95% effective, and the immunity faded with time.  Just like every other vaccine.


And the Covid shot’s effectiveness was?????


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> And the Covid shot’s effectiveness was?????


NFL Live last night showed US all the lack of effectiveness. Plus the fact my best pals WHO took the poison are the one's getting sick all the time and some have died from widow attacks. I know I am full of you know what to you, but my eyes saw what I saw last night and in all my my 50+ years of being a Steelers fan, big time NFL fan, Super fan of Monday Night Football and the Super Bowl, I never saw what I saw last night, ever! I pray for all of US right now. I played the Monday Night Football Theme Song on my wedding Day for the Groomsman to come out of the shadows and this does not look good. What many of our brave men & women football/futbol players had to inject in their bodies to be eligible is insane and it needs to stop, like now!!!


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> And the Covid shot’s effectiveness was?????


Original mRNA shot was 95%.









						Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM
					

Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine



					www.nejm.org
				




Omicron booster, against omicron, was 84%.









						The Omicron Booster: Your Questions Answered
					

Yale Medicine infectious diseases doctors discuss the new Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster.




					www.yalemedicine.org
				




Did you want your 2021 shot to block 2023 variants?   Yeah, me too.  No such luck.  If you want immunizations to work right, keep them up to date.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Original mRNA shot was 95%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron booster, against omicron, was 84%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Omicron Booster: Your Questions Answered
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine infectious diseases doctors discuss the new Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you want your 2021 shot to block 2023 variants?   Yeah, me too.  No such luck.  If you want immunizations to work right, keep them up to date.


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> It was never above 95% effective, and the immunity faded with time.


Now compare that with the covid vax that wasnt effective at all at stopping the spread OR and does not prevent vaxxed people from getting it. 

Or compare that vs how covid only affects a relatively small population and how most people have little to no risk even when exposed to the virus...vs the risk that smallpox had to the population as whole.

It shouldnt even be a debate...except for those still clinging to the straws they so fervently believed was and are true.


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> Did you want your 2021 shot to block 2023 variants? Yeah, me too. No such luck. If you want immunizations to work right, keep them up to date.


The problem with this is...in theory keeping up to date require 2-4 shots a year. 

And increasingly scientists and doctors are worried that is too much. 

The info/data that keeps coming out is going in the wrong direction of those who want multiple boosters each year. 

There have been no LONG term studies done on the vaxxes or doing multiple boosters each year.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Original mRNA shot was 95%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron booster, against omicron, was 84%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Omicron Booster: Your Questions Answered
> 
> 
> Yale Medicine infectious diseases doctors discuss the new Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yalemedicine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you want your 2021 shot to block 2023 variants?   Yeah, me too.  No such luck.  If you want immunizations to work right, keep them up to date.


that “95%” was published in Dec of 2020….around the same time Fauci, Biden, Maddow and the rest of Team Vax are on record stating, “get your shot and the Virus stops with you”……how did that work out?

By April estimates on the effectiveness were FAR lower.  Even the Pfizer CEO admitted it was never tested against transmitting so how could anyone know it was going to have a 95% effectiveness level?


----------



## Mad Hatter

"European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.

Repeat booster doses every four months could eventually weaken the immune response and tire out people, according to the European Medicines Agency. Instead, countries should leave more time between booster programs and tie them to the onset of the cold season in each hemisphere, following the blueprint set out by influenza vaccination strategies, the agency said."

There seems to be more and more concern about this.


----------



## Mad Hatter

Kicker4Life said:


> that “95%” was published in Dec of 2020….around the same time Fauci, Biden, Maddow and the rest of Team Vax are on record stating, “get your shot and the Virus stops with you”……how did that work out?


It is almost like willful blindness on his part.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> that “95%” was published in Dec of 2020….around the same time Fauci, Biden, Maddow and the rest of Team Vax are on record stating, “get your shot and the Virus stops with you”……how did that work out?
> 
> By April estimates on the effectiveness were FAR lower.  Even the Pfizer CEO admitted it was never tested against transmitting so how could anyone know it was going to have a 95% effectiveness level?


“The virus stops with you” was the baby version.  You chose to quote the talking head version of reality, so don’t complain that you got the baby version.   It’s what you were looking for.

If you want the adult version, it’s out there.  I’m sure you can do a web search to find out estimates for transmission reduction due to vaccines.   But it’s not going to be as simple as “stops with you” versus “does nothing.”.   You’ll have to accept that it is going to vary by variant, by age, by number of shots, by time since the shot, by kind of shot, and so on.  And, especially if you are looking at a time period with less testing, there will be wide error bars on it.

Or you can go back to whining that your baby version wasn’t 100% accurate.


----------



## Mad Hatter

And then you have the head of Moderna stating this...

Something that was obvious months into the whole covid panic...if one bothered to look at the numbers. Isn't there someone around here who claims to be a math guy?


*Moderna's CEO admits only the vulnerable need a COVID booster and likens the virus to flu*

It should be treated more like flu, with only the vulnerable needing the shots 
*He said it was 'very important to think about' whether or not to get a booster*
And it will be up to young people to 'decide for themselves what they want to do'









						Moderna's CEO admits only the vulnerable need a Covid booster
					

The company's CEO Stéphane Bancel said his shots are mainly targeted at over-50s and people with underlying health conditions. His comments seem to be at odds with the CDC in the US.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> “The virus stops with you” was the baby version.  You chose to quote the talking head version of reality, so don’t complain that you got the baby version.   It’s what you were looking for.
> 
> If you want the adult version, it’s out there.  I’m sure you can do a web search to find out estimates for transmission reduction due to vaccines.   But it’s not going to be as simple as “stops with you” versus “does nothing.”.   You’ll have to accept that it is going to vary by variant, by age, by number of shots, by time since the shot, by kind of shot, and so on.  And, especially if you are looking at a time period with less testing, there will be wide error bars on it.
> 
> Or you can go back to whining that your baby version wasn’t 100% accurate.


Right….and who is living in the alternate reality?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Right….and who is living in the alternate reality?


The one who thinks vaccines should completely block transmission of all variants, even those which didn’t exist when the vaccine was created.


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> The one who thinks vaccines should completely block transmission of all variants, even those which didn’t exist when the vaccine was created.


I find it interesting that despite all we have learned since the beginning you still seem to be a big fan of...

Lockdowns 
Masks
Vax mandates

Rather than realizing nothing was going to stop the virus and we would have been much better off had we treated it from the beginning like the flu.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> The one who thinks vaccines should completely block transmission of all variants, even those which didn’t exist when the vaccine was created.


Exactly, we ALL said this wasn’t a Vaccine, it was more like a Flu shot because you can’t vaccinate your way out of a Respiratory Virus and we were ALL mocked for it. Now you’re saying what we said from the beginning and trying to call us out for it??? 

If you’re going to Mandate it, Ostracize those who questioned it (whom turned out to be right for doing so), fire people from their jobs for not taking it and never ask the Key people who “sold” it under false pretense to correct their statements all while banning and black balling people who spoke out against it under the pretense of spreading “false information” which later turned about to be true….YAH!  It better be what you say it’s going to be, which it was not.

How many people still contract and spread Small Pox every year?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> How many people still contract and spread Small Pox every year?


None.  Smallpox was completely eradicated by a partially effective vaccine.

I get the impression that the above sentence makes no sense at all to you.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Exactly, we ALL said this wasn’t a Vaccine, it was more like a Flu shot because you can’t vaccinate your way out of a Respiratory Virus and we were ALL mocked for it. Now you’re saying what we said from the beginning and trying to call us out for it???
> 
> If you’re going to Mandate it, Ostracize those who questioned it (whom turned out to be right for doing so), fire people from their jobs for not taking it and never ask the Key people who “sold” it under false pretense to correct their statements all while banning and black balling people who spoke out against it under the pretense of spreading “false information” which later turned about to be true….YAH!  It better be what you say it’s going to be, which it was not.
> 
> How many people still contract and spread Small Pox every year?


Who is "ALL"?

What "false information" later turned out to be true?  Please be specific..


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> None. Smallpox was completely eradicated by a partially effective vaccine.


Grasping at straws again.

"Historically, the vaccine has been effective in preventing smallpox infection in *95% of those vaccinated*. In addition, the vaccine was proven to prevent or substantially lessen infection when given within a few days after a person was exposed to the variola virus." 

Unfortunately the covid vax doesnt stop the spread nor prevent infection. 

So outside of that your data is correct. 

I chuckled when I saw you typed in partially effective vaccine.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Who is "ALL"?


Fall 2021, Kicker was arguing that "everyone can protect themselves by getting vaccinated, therefore we don't need to try to limit community spread.". 

He wasn't just claiming it worked in general.  He was claiming it was fool-proof on an individual level.

Now he wants to say he never believed it was really a vaccine.


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> Fall 2021, Kicker was arguing that "everyone can protect themselves by getting vaccinated, therefore we don't need to try to limit community spread.".
> 
> He wasn't just claiming it worked in general.  He was claiming it was fool-proof on an individual level.
> 
> Now he wants to say he never believed it was really a vaccine.


If he said that, it was because that was what the authorities told us about the vax. 

Later as we found out, they never tested to see if it stopped the spread. They just told us they did. 

As the data came out and we say highly vaxed parts of the country with high mask usage having surges in infections it started to become apparent the vax didn't stop the spread. You though the issue wasnt the vax but with bars and restaurants being open and being the cause. 

It is precisely the lies the authorities told the public is why today there is such low trust in what they now say. 

Your opinion however seems to not have changed despite all the evidence going completely in the opposite direction of what you believe.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Fall 2021, Kicker was arguing that "everyone can protect themselves by getting vaccinated, therefore we don't need to try to limit community spread.".
> 
> He wasn't just claiming it worked in general.  He was claiming it was fool-proof on an individual level.
> 
> Now he wants to say he never believed it was really a vaccine.


Please show the actual post……never have I waivered in my belief that this Vaxx is not, was not nor would ever be a true Vaccine (ie Small Pox)…..now you’re just making things up.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Please show the actual post……


911 pages is a lot to wade theough.   Would it actually change anything if someone found it for you?

I’m guessing no.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Please show the actual post……never have I waivered in my belief that this Vaxx is not, was not nor would ever be a true Vaccine (ie Small Pox)…..now you’re just making things up.


 The only way it is not a "true vaccine" is because it is not derived from a disease of cows.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> 911 pages is a lot to wade theough.   Would it actually change anything if someone found it for you?
> 
> I’m guessing no.


Proof you’re making shit up by spinning statements out of context…..

My point was and always has been, if your want the Vaxx get it, but it should have NEVER been mandated.  My body my choice, remember.  Then your counter was how selfish of a statement that was because we need to protect our neighbors (wrong again as it never stopped you from getting or spreading it to others)…..

Remember the “pandemic of the unvaccinated”. Another broadcast statement from
our leadership that turned out to be false.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> The only way it is not a "true vaccine" is because it is not derived from a disease of cows.


No….but because it doesn’t do what a vaccine is supposed to do Quagmire….


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> 911 pages is a lot to wade theough.   Would it actually change anything if someone found it for you?
> 
> I’m guessing no.


If you take out all the posts from crush, then it's only about 200 pages to go back and read. Kicker was always against mandates so I side with him. He has been crystal clear where he stands. Dad, your bad advice cost people their freedom, their jobs and in some cases, their lives. SADS is real and it's happening to high level athletes who took all jabs + boosters. These amazing sports gladiators were forced to take all jabs or not be allowed on the pitch, the court or the fields or the classrooms or the job site to get free education or make a living playing sport. Horrible!!! People like me and others like me were locked out of life because. You will go down as one of the biggest losers in this vaccine mandate debate or get fired because of the *C*ertificate *O*f *V*accination *I.D.* *19 *control shots that must obeyed with.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> No….but because it doesn’t do what a vaccine is supposed to do Quagmire….


How so?  The covid vaccine reduces the risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization, and death.  

What is your standard for being willing to call something a vaccine?

Don’t tell me a vaccine needs to completely “stop” all transmission.  Even the smallpox shot didn’t do that.


----------



## crush

Never Forget The War That Was Waged Against The Unvaccinated. Never. by End Wokeness
					

End Wokeness: https://Twitter.com/EndWokeness  11,380 Posts Were Published In 2022: https://EarthNewspaper.com Featured News 1,000+ Posts Yearly: https://EarthNewspaper.com/News News Archive With 18,000+ Posts: https://EarthNewspaper.com/Archive…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Proof you’re making shit up by spinning statements out of context…..
> 
> My point was and always has been, if your want the Vaxx get it, but it should have NEVER been mandated.  My body my choice, remember.  Then your counter was how selfish of a statement that was because we need to protect our neighbors (wrong again as it never stopped you from getting or spreading it to others)…..
> 
> Remember the “pandemic of the unvaccinated”. Another broadcast statement from
> our leadership that turned out to be false.


That’s my point.  You are consistent in that you want to end mandates.

Then the facts change to follow your principles.   When you needed an argument against masks and indoor dining bans, you were happy to argue that the vaccine was so great that we could abandon all other covid containment measures.   When you needed an argument against vaccine requirements, all of a sudden the vaccine was so bad it wasn’t a vaccine anymore.

The quality of the vaccine seems to depend on which mandate you are opposing.  If you are opposing a vaccine mandate, then you will say the vaccine stinks.  If you are opposing NPI mandates, you will say the vaccine is all you need.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> How so?  The covid vaccine reduces the risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization, and death.
> 
> What is your standard for being willing to call something a vaccine?
> 
> Don’t tell me a vaccine needs to completely “stop” all transmission.  Even the smallpox shot didn’t do that.


dude dad - you are still kicking this can?  still on this bandwagon, crazy! Remember that one time at band camp when we vaccinated everyone against polio and small pox and cases soared?  Remember that? 

mRNA is killing the vaccine vibe.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> That’s my point.  You are consistent in that you want to end mandates.
> 
> Then the facts change to follow your principles.   When you needed an argument against masks and indoor dining bans, you were happy to argue that the vaccine was so great that we could abandon all other covid containment measures.   When you needed an argument against vaccine requirements, all of a sudden the vaccine was so bad it wasn’t a vaccine anymore.
> 
> The quality of the vaccine seems to depend on which mandate you are opposing.  If you are opposing a vaccine mandate, then you will say the vaccine stinks.  If you are opposing NPI mandates, you will say the vaccine is all you need.


the "vaccine" stinks.  Why mandate a crappy product that doesn't work as advertised?  has always been gibberish spin.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> When you needed an argument against masks and indoor dining bans, you were happy to argue that the vaccine was so great that we could abandon all other covid containment measures.   When you needed an argument against vaccine requirements, all of a sudden the vaccine was so bad it wasn’t a vaccine anymore.


Nope….it’s all in your head….I’ve never waivered.


----------



## Mad Hatter

dad4 said:


> That’s my point. You are consistent in that you want to end mandates.


Many of us are.

The vax....
Doesnt stop the spread of the virus
Doesnt prevent one from getting infected.

Those 2 facts render the argument for mandates null and void.

Then factor in the fact that people wanted to mandate a vax that had no long term studies done. That is unethical at a min.


----------



## SurFutbol

Masks reduce risk of transmission when worn properly.  Lockdowns and social distancing measures reduce risk of transmission. These saved lives until effective vaccines could be introduced, which further saved lives by the severity of the virus. These are indisputable facts. They are why AZ has the highest overall Covid death rate of any state and about twice that of CA, which is 41st.  If CA had followed AZ's stupid policies, that would have been another 100,000 Covid deaths at least, and probably more given CA's much higher urban densities.  Even NY, which had to deal with the worst of the virus before any effective prevention and treatment existed, now has only the 15th highest overall Covid death rate, which is further proof that the combination of masks, social distancing and vaccines helped tremendously. 

Now that it would be embarrassing for the anti-vax/mask/social distancing idiots to AZ, NY and CA as proof of anything they support, they're pointing to China's increased problems.  But China's increasing death rate is primarily the result of low vaccination rates combined with the fact that their vaccines are not nearly as effective as ours.  China is proof only that mask and social distancing were important to save lives before a vaccine existed, but unsustainable for a society over the long term.  More importantly, the anti-vax/mask/social distancing nut jobs also fail to acknowledge that China's overall Covid-19 death rate so far is *4* people per million, but AZ's death rate is *4421* per million. Think about that.  If there were ever any definitive proof that masks and social distancing work, it is this.  If there were ever any evidence that the US vaccines work, it is that US death rates have dropped significantly, but China's are increasing.  The painfully obvious truth is that so many people died in the US only because of the behavior of the anti-mask/vax/social distancing nutjobs.  There is a death rate that is higher than China's, but far less than AZ's 4,420 per million, that could have happened if only there were just fewer stupid, selfish American nutters.  

Speaking of crush, it's no surprise he blames the Bills' player's cardiac arrest on the vaccine. He also blamed the vaccine for Christian Eriksen but, oops, it turned out Eriksen wasn't vaccinated.  By crush's "logic", Eriksen's heart attack must prove that being unvaccinated causes cardiac arrest, right? Or did Hank Gathers get the Covid vaccine back in 1990?  I think crush also tried to blame the Stanford goalie's death on being depressed due to Covid but, oops, wrong again. It must be hard to be anti-vax/mask/social distance when it means they agree with perhaps the dumbest person on earth.


----------



## Kicker4Life

SurFutbol said:


> Masks reduce risk of transmission when worn properly.  Lockdowns and social distancing measures reduce risk of transmission. These saved lives until effective vaccines could be introduced, which further saved lives by the severity of the virus. These are indisputable facts. They are why AZ has the highest overall Covid death rate of any state and about twice that of CA, which is 41st.  If CA had followed AZ's stupid policies, that would have been another 100,000 Covid deaths at least, and probably more given CA's much higher urban densities.  Even NY, which had to deal with the worst of the virus before any effective prevention and treatment existed, now has only the 15th highest overall Covid death rate, which is further proof that the combination of masks, social distancing and vaccines helped tremendously.
> 
> Now that it would be embarrassing for the anti-vax/mask/social distancing idiots to AZ, NY and CA as proof of anything they support, they're pointing to China's increased problems.  But China's increasing death rate is primarily the result of low vaccination rates combined with the fact that their vaccines are not nearly as effective as ours.  China is proof only that mask and social distancing were important to save lives before a vaccine existed, but unsustainable for a society over the long term.  More importantly, the anti-vax/mask/social distancing nut jobs also fail to acknowledge that China's overall Covid-19 death rate so far is *4* people per million, but AZ's death rate is *4421* per million. Think about that.  If there were ever any definitive proof that masks and social distancing work, it is this.  If there were ever any evidence that the US vaccines work, it is that US death rates have dropped significantly, but China's are increasing.  The painfully obvious truth is that so many people died in the US only because of the behavior of the anti-mask/vax/social distancing nutjobs.  There is a death rate that is higher than China's, but far less than AZ's 4,420 per million, that could have happened if only there were just fewer stupid, selfish American nutters.
> 
> Speaking of crush, it's no surprise he blames the Bills' player's cardiac arrest on the vaccine. He also blamed the vaccine for Christian Eriksen but, oops, it turned out Eriksen wasn't vaccinated.  By crush's "logic", Eriksen's heart attack must prove that being unvaccinated causes cardiac arrest, right? Or did Hank Gathers get the Covid vaccine back in 1990?  I think crush also tried to blame the Stanford goalie's death on being depressed due to Covid but, oops, wrong again. It must be hard to be anti-vax/mask/social distance when it means they agree with perhaps the dumbest person on earth.


Sure, lockdowns for the first few weeks helped, but the continued blanket policies when we knew the statistics of risk caused more harm than helped.

The only thing China is proving is you can’t hide from a Respiratory Virus. You can get a booster that may help (vaxx’ed people are still dying with Covid) but effectiveness is still subpar.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> No….but because it doesn’t do what a vaccine is supposed to do Quagmire….


What factor of being a vaccine does the covid vaccine (any or all of them) not do?


----------



## SurFutbol

Kicker4Life said:


> Sure, lockdowns for the first few weeks helped, but the continued blanket policies when we knew the statistics of risk caused more harm than helped.
> 
> The only thing China is proving is you can’t hide from a Respiratory Virus. You can get a booster that may help (vaxx’ed people are still dying with Covid) but effectiveness is still subpar.


Fine if you would have preferred a lot more dead Americans.  Just own it instead of all this b.s. about how masks, social distancing and vaccines haven't saved a lot of lives.  All this whining about how your quality of life was negatively affected because you were asked to wear masks and not hang out in bars for a while during the worst pandemic in over a century is pathetic. 

And WTF are you talking about with respect to effectiveness being "subpar"?  Is that what the anti-vaxxer crowd is claiming now that vaccine development has been going on for three years and the anti-vaxxers can't whine anymore about how it was "rushed"?  This is just more bs excuses.


----------



## watfly

The vaccine is at best a prophylactic therapeutic.  Calling it a vaccine is a prime example of misinformation, or an outright lie to rationalize mandates.   The vast majority of the public has figured it out and that's why you are seeing very low booster rates and even lower child shot rates.  Some people are still holding on to their myopic altered reality, though, and want to continue to mask kids and implement other restrictions.  The "don't question science" crowd can cite whatever studies they want, but when the general public can see that the majority of their friends and family have been infected post-vaccination then they can't trust science.  They trust their eyes and reality.

For the last year we've lived with Covid without any mandates and restrictions (for the most part) and the vast majority are doing just fine despite continued infections.  Again its a pandemic of the compromised (95% deaths have an average 4 comorbidities).  It's not a pandemic of children,  RSV is far more dangerous to children than Covid, although very treatable.

I will be honest,  I would have accepted a few more accelerated deaths of the compromised in exchange for large populations of children not having their physical, mental and educational development damaged.

I've been consistent from the start, we need to put the needs of our children ahead of those of the adults.


----------



## crush

Speaking of the Bills player and what EVERYONE was thinking in their little brains as CPR was being used, it looks like it was the vicious hit and nothing to do with the jabs. I misinformation the group with being emotional. I'm sorry about that. The pals I know who passed away suddenly in their sleep last year was just that, a sudden and natural death at 50 years old. Nothing to see here folks, just move right along and put a mask on as you go outside full of the flu and Covid 19.


----------



## SurFutbol

crush said:


> Speaking of the Bills player and what EVERYONE was thinking in their little brains as CPR was being used, it looks like it was the vicious hit and nothing to do with the jabs. I misinformation the group with being emotional. I'm sorry about that. The pals I know who passed away suddenly in their sleep last year was just that, a sudden and natural death at 50 years old. Nothing to see here folks, just move right along and put a mask on as you go outside full of the flu and Covid 19.


Eriksen can have cardiac arrest and Hank Gathers can drop dead at 23, but if your "pal" dies at 50 it must be because of a vaccine?  Sure.  More likely, your friend died laughing after you told him that you'd decided that your middle school age daughter was going pro right out of HS.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> What factor of being a vaccine does the covid vaccine (any or all of them) not do?


Protect


----------



## Kicker4Life

SurFutbol said:


> Fine if you would have preferred a lot more dead Americans.  Just own it instead of all this b.s. about how masks, social distancing and vaccines haven't saved a lot of lives.  All this whining about how your quality of life was negatively affected because you were asked to wear masks and not hang out in bars for a while during the worst pandemic in over a century is pathetic.
> 
> And WTF are you talking about with respect to effectiveness being "subpar"?  Is that what the anti-vaxxer crowd is claiming now that vaccine development has been going on for three years and the anti-vaxxers can't whine anymore about how it was "rushed"?  This is just more bs excuses.


Subpar as in it didn’t do what it was sold as doing (stopping transmutation, protecting those who take it from getting the disease it was meant to protect you from…” the Virus stops with you”.

27 posts since 10/22 and not a single one about your child’s soccer experience.   So why are you in a youth soccer forum?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Protect


Now that is some plumber-level denial, right there.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Now that is some plumber-level denial, right there.


You of all people would know…..how’s the oatmeal today?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Subpar as in it didn’t do what it was sold as doing (stopping transmutation, protecting those who take it from getting the disease it was meant to protect you from…” the Virus stops with you”.
> 
> 27 posts since 10/22 and not a single one about your child’s soccer experience.   So why are you in a youth soccer forum?


OOH! -- a stalker!


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> You of all people would know…..how’s the oatmeal today?


So now you are reduced to ageist insults?

On second thought, "reduced" is not the proper verb there.  You have been there a long time, haven't you?


----------



## crush




----------



## MARsSPEED

Anyone want to do some fake news research for me? Friend sent me this:

*"Swine flu vaccine (1976), 1 serious event per 100,000 vaccinees, Vaccine withdrawn

Rotavirus vaccine Rotashield, (1999),1 to 2 serious events per 10,000 vaccinees, Vaccine withdrawn

Covid mRNA vaccines, 1 serious event per 800 vaccinees, Vaccine officially promoted

Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults

[link to pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (secure)]

Free full text available

[link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (secure)]

Why We Question the Safety Profile of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

(Robert M Kaplan and Sander Greenland)

[link to sensiblemed.substack.com (secure)]* "


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> What factor of being a vaccine does the covid vaccine (any or all of them) not do?


you are actually comparing an mRNA "vaccine" to other vaccines?  are you an employee of the CDC's communications directorate? Spit ball me in your own words on how effective this vaccine has been in protecting anyone under the age of...let's say, 50?  better yet, under the age of 70?  Pause oatmeal consumption and hook a sister up.


----------



## SurFutbol

Kicker4Life said:


> Subpar as in it didn’t do what it was sold as doing (stopping transmutation, protecting those who take it from getting the disease it was meant to protect you from…” the Virus stops with you”.
> 
> 27 posts since 10/22 and not a single one about your child’s soccer experience.   So why are you in a youth soccer forum?


You've posted 1000x about Covid and vaccines at a child's soccer website but you're criticizing me for my three of apparently 27 total posts that don't relate to children's sports?  If you're going to try to gaslight people, you really need to do a better job, whether about my posts or your stupid nonsense about Covid and vaccines.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> you are actually comparing an mRNA "vaccine" to other vaccines?  are you an employee of the CDC's communications directorate? Spit ball me in your own words on how effective this vaccine has been in protecting anyone under the age of...let's say, 50?  better yet, under the age of 70?  Pause oatmeal consumption and hook a sister up.


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## Kicker4Life

SurFutbol said:


> You've posted 1000x about Covid and vaccines at a child's soccer website but you're criticizing me for my three of apparently 27 total posts that don't relate to children's sports?  If you're going to try to gaslight people, you really need to do a better job, whether about my posts or your stupid nonsense about Covid and vaccines.


Hmmmmmm….your tone seams so familiar……nevertheless, fair point.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


what question did you ask that was of any substance?  Have you been able to determine if mRNA vaccines  had the same impact as polio and measle vaccines?  asking for an infectious disease friend.  I'm wondering what vaccines are available that actually weakens the immune system after multiple boosters?  Imagine if a responsible, science based immunization program would have been undertaken by our vaunted federal entity responsible for being sciency.  No dice though - let's have the entire population take part in long term clinical trials  (for those that decided or were forced to take part).  This will play out for the next 2 decades or so.  

look at that, I didn't even through in oatmeal consumption.


----------



## Happened again

MARsSPEED said:


> Anyone want to do some fake news research for me? Friend sent me this:
> 
> *"Swine flu vaccine (1976), 1 serious event per 100,000 vaccinees, Vaccine withdrawn
> 
> Rotavirus vaccine Rotashield, (1999),1 to 2 serious events per 10,000 vaccinees, Vaccine withdrawn
> 
> Covid mRNA vaccines, 1 serious event per 800 vaccinees, Vaccine officially promoted
> 
> Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults
> 
> [link to pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (secure)]
> 
> Free full text available
> 
> [link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (secure)]
> 
> Why We Question the Safety Profile of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> (Robert M Kaplan and Sander Greenland)
> 
> [link to sensiblemed.substack.com (secure)]* "


dolla, dolla, dolla bill.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> what question did you ask that was of any substance?  Have you been able to determine if mRNA vaccines  had the same impact as polio and measle vaccines?  asking for an infectious disease friend.  I'm wondering what vaccines are available that actually weakens the immune system after multiple boosters?  Imagine if a responsible, science based immunization program would have been undertaken by our vaunted federal entity responsible for being sciency.  No dice though - let's have the entire population take part in long term clinical trials  (for those that decided or were forced to take part).  This will play out for the next 2 decades or so.
> 
> look at that, I didn't even through in oatmeal consumption.


You still didn't answer the question.  In fact, it appears as if you are trying to run away from the question.

Your strength seems to be insults and speculation.

"...through..."?


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You still didn't answer the question.  In fact, it appears as if you are trying to run away from the question.
> 
> Your strength seems to be insults and speculation.
> 
> "...through..."?


You are pretty dodgy and like to skirt, skirt.  I've been pretty consistent in regards to the vaccine.  It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity.  Does it protect certain demographics...sure does.

Remember that one time at band camp when "they" said the vaccine WILL:  prevent transmission and provide immunity?   Does it do any of these two?  I no think so.  Does it provide a waning level of protection to certain demographics...sure.  Don't be bamboozled by sciency people and bobblehead medical professionals on th airwaves.  

Tell me exactly what I'm speculating about?  Does the vaccine prevent transmission and provide immunity?  Simple yes or no would suffice.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> You are pretty dodgy and like to skirt, skirt.  I've been pretty consistent in regards to the vaccine.  It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity.  Does it protect certain demographics...sure does.
> 
> Remember that one time at band camp when "they" said the vaccine WILL:  prevent transmission and provide immunity?   Does it do any of these two?  I no think so.  Does it provide a waning level of protection to certain demographics...sure.  Don't be bamboozled by sciency people and bobblehead medical professionals on th airwaves.
> 
> Tell me exactly what I'm speculating about?  Does the vaccine prevent transmission and provide immunity?  Simple yes or no would suffice.


"It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity" are blatant mistruths when compared to the historical performance of vaccines.

Is it your position that you will answer the question with falsehoods?


----------



## crush

espola said:


> "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity" are blatant mistruths when compared to the historical performance of vaccines.
> 
> Is it your position that you will answer the question with falsehoods?


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity" are blatant mistruths when compared to the historical performance of vaccines.
> 
> Is it your position that you will answer the question with falsehoods?


oh lawd - falsehoods?  you are too far gone.  historical performance of which vaccine?    How many international covid waves must you witness before you quit being a sheep?  

Your inability to google and post anything of relevence since 2020 is telling.  Is it untrue that mRNA technology hasn't been able to prevent transmission and provide immunity?  When was the last international, cross border outbreak of polio, measles?  Which country last closed its border due to an outbreak.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> oh lawd - falsehoods?  you are too far gone.  historical performance of which vaccine?    How many international covid waves must you witness before you quit being a sheep?
> 
> Your inability to google and post anything of relevence since 2020 is telling.  Is it untrue that mRNA technology hasn't been able to prevent transmission and provide immunity?  When was the last international, cross border outbreak of polio, measles?  Which country last closed its border due to an outbreak.


You still haven't answered the question.


----------



## espola

"Adults who are up to date on their shots are 15 times less likely to die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Covid vaccines prevented more than 3.2 million deaths and 18.5 million hospitalizations in the U.S. from December 2020 through November 2022, according to an analysis published Tuesday by the Commonwealth Fund and Yale School of Public Health."

Two years after Covid vaccines came out, researchers push for new options (nbcnews.com) 

Deeper background --

The tangled history of mRNA vaccines (nature.com)


----------



## espola

China and mRNA --

"China’s lack of an mRNA shot — and its delay in approving a viable foreign option — has poked holes in Beijing’s victorious pandemic narrative and prompted experts to question whether the country’s go-it-alone approach is less triumphant than officials would have the world believe."

Why China Doesn’t Have an mRNA Vaccine for Covid - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


----------



## crush

Bed Bath & Beyond Bankrupt now. THis is what happens when you treat fe


Happened again said:


> oh lawd - falsehoods?  you are too far gone.  historical performance of which vaccine?    How many international covid waves must you witness before you quit being a sheep?
> 
> Your inability to google and post anything of relevence since 2020 is telling.  Is it untrue that mRNA technology hasn't been able to prevent transmission and provide immunity?  When was the last international, cross border outbreak of polio, measles?  Which country last closed its border due to an outbreak.


You have been 100% consistent on your takes regarding the jabs and no falsehood in your writings. This Espola is a loss cause and is going down with the ship, let that sink in


----------



## crush

espola said:


> "Adults who are up to date on their shots are 15 times less likely to die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Covid vaccines prevented more than 3.2 million deaths and 18.5 million hospitalizations in the U.S. from December 2020 through November 2022, according to an analysis published Tuesday by the Commonwealth Fund and Yale School of Public Health."
> 
> Two years after Covid vaccines came out, researchers push for new options (nbcnews.com)
> 
> Deeper background --
> 
> The tangled history of mRNA vaccines (nature.com)


People are now 15 times more likely to die suddenly in their sleep is what I have been hearing and seeing. 90% of the peeps I know who died in 2022 and 2023 died with the jabs. The majority of folks I know who did not participate in this scam are alive and super healthy. Only one died of a heart attack and he was not jabbed, but did eat poorly and did not take care of his only body and he died 100% for bad heath and allowing bad things to enter his only body. Take me for example. I quit eating meat, drink water only (99% of the time) and I eat fruits, veggies and salads. My best pal the Doc told me to my face years ago as did my wife to get my act together and watch what I put in my body and I follow that advice the best I can. I do love sugar and I have to watch out for the sugar high.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611039765939519490
WTF is up with these WEFers and their Global Shapers of today? Are you a Global Shaper? Espola & Dad passed the online version of the WEFers Global Community Leaders. Soros put the curriculum together. Soon will shall debate The Globalist vs The Flat Efers. This planet is full of liars, cheats, ass kissers, pay to play rich dads and those WHO deceive others to make a buck. My buddy is feeling sick this year because he believed a big fat lie and because of the big fat lie, he harmed his children with horrible advice. He blames those at the top WHO lie to make a buck and trick others into putting poison in one's blood stream all because.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> "Adults who are up to date on their shots are 15 times less likely to die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Covid vaccines prevented more than 3.2 million deaths and 18.5 million hospitalizations in the U.S. from December 2020 through November 2022, according to an analysis published Tuesday by the Commonwealth Fund and Yale School of Public Health."
> 
> Two years after Covid vaccines came out, researchers push for new options (nbcnews.com)
> 
> Deeper background --
> 
> The tangled history of mRNA vaccines (nature.com)


this is your homerun?  That the vaccines really do stink and that we need to work on better ones?  That 60% of dead adults in AUG were vaxxed and boosted? Your approach to public health is curious to say the least.  Are you an advocate for vaccinating healthy people - never mind, don't asnwer that.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> China and mRNA --
> 
> "China’s lack of an mRNA shot — and its delay in approving a viable foreign option — has poked holes in Beijing’s victorious pandemic narrative and prompted experts to question whether the country’s go-it-alone approach is less triumphant than officials would have the world believe."
> 
> Why China Doesn’t Have an mRNA Vaccine for Covid - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


Or maybe the chinese are on to something?  Why aren't they asking for our large stockpile of bivalent boosters and why aren't we sending what we are sitting on that people aren't taking? Maybe they don't dig negative efficacy?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> this is your homerun?  That the vaccines really do stink and that we need to work on better ones?  That 60% of dead adults in AUG were vaxxed and boosted? Your approach to public health is curious to say the least.  Are you an advocate for vaccinating healthy people - never mind, don't asnwer that.


You didn't read the quoted passage from the article?  Here. I'll repeat it again for you --

"Adults who are up to date on their shots are 15 times less likely to die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Covid vaccines prevented more than 3.2 million deaths and 18.5 million hospitalizations in the U.S. from December 2020 through November 2022, according to an analysis published Tuesday by the Commonwealth Fund and Yale School of Public Health."


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> Or maybe the chinese are on to something?  Why aren't they asking for our large stockpile of bivalent boosters and why aren't we sending what we are sitting on that people aren't taking? Maybe they don't dig negative efficacy?


It's becoming a recurring amusement how you will twist your mind to rationalize your previous positions no matter what facts are presented.

Let's see how long we can keep this up.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You didn't read the quoted passage from the article?  Here. I'll repeat it again for you --
> 
> "Adults who are up to date on their shots are 15 times less likely to die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Covid vaccines prevented more than 3.2 million deaths and 18.5 million hospitalizations in the U.S. from December 2020 through November 2022, according to an analysis published Tuesday by the Commonwealth Fund and Yale School of Public Health."


ahhh, but ok for you to ignore the other facts in the article.  20-22 huh...hmmm


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> It's becoming a recurring amusement how you will twist your mind to rationalize your previous positions no matter what facts are presented.
> 
> Let's see how long we can keep this up.


I get it now...you answer with gibberish when you don't understand the words displayed on your screen....we have a large stockpile of bivalent boosters..I wonder why.  have you taken a peek at negative efficacy?  

Please tell me my previous positions and how I've wavered?  Old and/or  comprimised = vax (vax injury low on totem pole), Young and healthy = no vax (data is clear).  Should you boost? pay attention to old/emerging data.

But back to China...


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> I get it now...you answer with gibberish when you don't understand the words displayed on your screen....we have a large stockpile of bivalent boosters..I wonder why.  have you taken a peek at negative efficacy?
> 
> Please tell me my previous positions and how I've wavered?  Old and/or  comprimised = vax (vax injury low on totem pole), Young and healthy = no vax (data is clear).  Should you boost? pay attention to old/emerging data.
> 
> But back to China...


So are you sticking with "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity"  despite the statistics that say otherwise?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> ahhh, but ok for you to ignore the other facts in the article.  20-22 huh...hmmm


What other facts do you find germane?


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> So are you sticking with "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity"  despite the statistics that say otherwise?


that's a silly question to ask....do they?  is the pandemic over?  Now, if you rephrase your words to say provide protection for severe disease for some people, you'd feel better and could be taken more seriously.  But if you are on the prevention and immunity bandwagon, we have nothing to discuss.

Show me a clinical trial that shows prevention and immunity for a mRNA covid vaccine without significant wane.  and spare me the "not all vaccines are 100%"  bs.  Plenty of vaccines have been developed and deployed that have eradicated disease....mRNA, not so much.  If that was the case, canada should be good to go..which they are not.....or pick another mRNA country - your choice.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> What other facts do you find germane?


luv that word - germane.  60% dead people seemed pretty germane. have you ever wondered what happens when a virus mutates and a vaccine can't keep up? seems pretty obvious to me that the gist of the article said current vaccines suck and can't keep up with mutations.  Are you boosted for little O and it's subvariants?  Little O isn't the OG, pretty mild, along with it's off springs.  Plenty of emerging data that suggests boosting is having an opposite effect and is leaving you with a blind spot for mutating virus.  Thank goodness for those crazy b and t cells.  

Anyway, alarm was sounded early and emerging data confirming what those crazies thought a year ago.  









						Why a 4th COVID-19 Shot Likely Won’t Provide More Protection
					

Regulators in Europe say getting too many COVID-19 booster shots may actually weaken your immune response. Scientists in Israel also reported that a fourth vaccine dose doesn't appear to produce enough antibodies to protect against an Omicron variant infection.




					www.healthline.com


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> luv that word - germane.  60% dead people seemed pretty germane. have you ever wondered what happens when a virus mutates and a vaccine can't keep up? seems pretty obvious to me that the gist of the article said current vaccines suck and can't keep up with mutations.  Are you boosted for little O and it's subvariants?  Little O isn't the OG, pretty mild, along with it's off springs.  Plenty of emerging data that suggests boosting is having an opposite effect and is leaving you with a blind spot for mutating virus.  Thank goodness for those crazy b and t cells.
> 
> Anyway, alarm was sounded early and emerging data confirming what those crazies thought a year ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a 4th COVID-19 Shot Likely Won’t Provide More Protection
> 
> 
> Regulators in Europe say getting too many COVID-19 booster shots may actually weaken your immune response. Scientists in Israel also reported that a fourth vaccine dose doesn't appear to produce enough antibodies to protect against an Omicron variant infection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com


If you are going to make up your own stats I guess you can justify any position you wish to take.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> So are you sticking with "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity"  despite the statistics that say otherwise?


100% the vaxx DOES NOT prevent transmission and DOES NOT provide immunity!

let’s not forget, pre vax, there was still a 99% survival rate for those under 65.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> 100% the vaxx DOES NOT prevent transmission and DOES NOT provide immunity!
> 
> let’s not forget, pre vax, there was still a 99% survival rate for those under 65.


Clueless.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> Clueless.


IF the Vax PREVENTED transmission why are the vax’d spreading it?  If the Vax PROVIDED immunity, why are the vax’d and boosted still catching it?

Why is the Vax population making up more of the Covid deaths than last year?

What otherREAL vaccines require a 2x’s per year booster shot to remain somewhat effective?

incoming dumbass,, none specific response coming in……3….2…..1….


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> IF the Vax PREVENTED transmission why are the vax’d spreading it?  If the Vax PROVIDED immunity, why are the vax’d and boosted still catching it?
> 
> Why is the Vax population making up more of the Covid deaths than last year?
> 
> What otherREAL vaccines require a 2x’s per year booster shot to remain somewhat effective?
> 
> incoming dumbass,, none specific response coming in……3….2…..1….


100%?  (that was your recent claim)

Clueless.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> IF the Vax PREVENTED transmission why are the vax’d spreading it?  If the Vax PROVIDED immunity, why are the vax’d and boosted still catching it?
> 
> Why is the Vax population making up more of the Covid deaths than last year?
> 
> What otherREAL vaccines require a 2x’s per year booster shot to remain somewhat effective?
> 
> incoming dumbass,, none specific response coming in……3….2…..1….


Because the vaccine reduces, but does not eliminate, the risk of transmission.

They do prison studies to measure it.  Prisoners with a vaccinated cell mate are considerably less likely to catch Covid than prisoners with an unvaccinated cell mate.

This is why the medical community has moved on.  The evidence is in.  The vaccines work well but imperfectly.  You can take your 84% reduction, or not.

But there is no point in using CAPS LOCK to tell us that the vaccine does nothing.  It's just not true.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Because the vaccine reduces, but does not eliminate, the risk of transmission.
> 
> They do prison studies to measure it.  Prisoners with a vaccinated cell mate are considerably less likely to catch Covid than prisoners with an unvaccinated cell mate.
> 
> This is why the medical community has moved on.  The evidence is in.  The vaccines work well but imperfectly.  You can take your 84% reduction, or not.
> 
> But there is no point in using CAPS LOCK to tell us that the vaccine does nothing.  It's just not true.


Sometimes he needs help seeing the context


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Sometimes he needs help seeing the context


So help me understand the context.

By now, you and I both know that the omicron booster reduces the transmission rate for omicron.  Yet you keep repeating the same “doesn’t prevent transmission” talking point.

What gives?  It’s like we both hear raindrops, but you keep saying that it never rains.  Are we old men, and one of us needs to remind the other that this isn’t real rain, not like the pineapple express back in ‘62…


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> So help me understand the context.
> 
> By now, you and I both know that the omicron booster reduces the transmission rate for omicron.  Yet you keep repeating the same “doesn’t prevent transmission” talking point.
> 
> What gives?  It’s like we both hear raindrops, but you keep saying that it never rains.  Are we old men, and one of us needs to remind the other that this isn’t real rain, not like the pineapple express back in ‘62…


See Magoo’s post below:



espola said:


> So are you sticking with "It doesn't prevent transmission, it doesn't provide immunity"  despite the statistics that say otherwise?


I said it does not prevent either, am I wrong? 

Yes or No?


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> See Magoo’s post below:
> 
> 
> I said it does not prevent either, am I wrong?
> 
> Yes or No?


You're wrong to expect 100% results.  It's a degree of protection that has saved millions of lives.  Am I right or wrong?


----------



## crush

Fauci Comes Out of Retirement to Control the Damar Hamlin Narrative
					






					rumble.com


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> You're wrong to expect 100% results.  It's a degree of protection that has saved millions of lives.  Am I right or wrong?


So you agree that it does not prevent anything?

still catching
still transmitting
still passing away with Covid

Should have never been mandated like it was, non-vaxx should have never been ostracized like they were.  

End of conversation


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> So you agree that it does not prevent anything?
> 
> still catching
> still transmitting
> still passing away with Covid
> 
> Should have never been mandated like it was, non-vaxx should have never been ostracized like they were.
> 
> End of conversation


It has prevented millions of deaths.


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> It has prevented millions of deaths.


you are so squirrely - and you tread water in the shallow end of the pool.  mRNA vaccines did Ok early on and did save lives when disease was more severe (for a very, very specific and narrow segment of the population.  We are several mutations removed from the dark days of the pandemic.  mRNA just can't keep up, haven't been able to for some time.  I like how you even won't consider valid, emerging data that clearly suggests we are doing more harm than good to healthy immune systems.  But you continue to be obtuse and live in 2020.  Healthy people at low risk should never take the vaccine, it doesn't protect them nor does it protect others...transmission and infection still occur, on behalf of a mutated strain that's not very dangerous.  

It's pretty cool that we've managed to inject a generation of healthy people with crappy science and get to see what happens. Old dudes not a big deal, younglings, a big deal.  Hat's off to those who stood their ground, knowing they (and their kids) were healthy.  Ask your doctor which vaccine they took, you may be surprised


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> If you are going to make up your own stats I guess you can justify any position you wish to take.


what stats have I made up?  What other positions have I taken? .i've been rather consistent and have paid attention to the evolution of the science.  You are the one stuck in JUL of 2020.  The vaccine doesn't prevent transmission nor does it provide immunity - especially VS the mutated strains.  Do boosters provide protection?  Maybe for some. A healthy 15 year old doesn't need a vaccine or a booster, a healthy college kid doesn't need a vaccine or a booster.  Old person, should boost because concerns for long term adverse reaction are diminished.  BUT, plenty of old quadrupled boosted dead people that may have done just fine against current strains with their own immune system.  

So  yes, 2 years ago, vaccines saved plenty of people....the jury is still out on long term effects on healthy, vaxxed people..emerging data leaning towards the adverse.  But we will see won't we.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> what stats have I made up?  What other positions have I taken? .i've been rather consistent and have paid attention to the evolution of the science.  You are the one stuck in JUL of 2020.  The vaccine doesn't prevent transmission nor does it provide immunity - especially VS the mutated strains.  Do boosters provide protection?  Maybe for some. A healthy 15 year old doesn't need a vaccine or a booster, a healthy college kid doesn't need a vaccine or a booster.  Old person, should boost because concerns for long term adverse reaction are diminished.  BUT, plenty of old quadrupled boosted dead people that may have done just fine against current strains with their own immune system.
> 
> So  yes, 2 years ago, vaccines saved plenty of people....the jury is still out on long term effects on healthy, vaxxed people..emerging data leaning towards the adverse.  But we will see won't we.


What orifice did you pull "60% dead people" from?


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> See Magoo’s post below:
> 
> 
> I said it does not prevent either, am I wrong?
> 
> Yes or No?


Yes.   You're wrong.

The vaccine significantly reduces your odds of death, hospitalization, and transmission.   It does not reduce those odds to zero. 

Next question.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Yes.   You're wrong.
> 
> The vaccine significantly reduces your odds of death, hospitalization, and transmission.   It does not reduce those odds to zero.
> 
> Next question.


Prevention and reduction are not the same.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Prevention and reduction are not the same.


By that definition, the smallpox vaccine was reduction.  Some people still got infected after the jab.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Yes.   You're wrong.
> 
> The vaccine significantly reduces your odds of death, hospitalization, and transmission.   It does not reduce those odds to zero.
> 
> Next question.


Liar!


----------



## crush

Sudden Teen Death Syndrome. Something is going on and it's not life. Dad is full of crap!

*Ashari died playing flag football- only 16. Looks like a heart attack 



Victoria just died kick boxing. Heart attack at 18?
*


----------



## crush

Remember at the beginning of the scam that anyone who died, died because they got the Rona and not the car that hit them? We would argue if they just had covid when they were struck and killed and dad and his crew said we need to wear mask and take the shots to save lives and not die like Herman Cain did because he didnt get the jab? Now the reporting has changed, gee I wonder why?

*“The following changes will be implemented for the weekly report in 2023:*

•* *Vaccination status of cases admitted to hospital, admitted to ICU and those who die will no longer be reported*.”*


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Prevention and reduction are not the same.


 Clueless.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Clueless.



She complained of chest pains right before she died of cardiac arrest. I bet if she had NFL docs at the field she was playing on she would be alive right now asking if her team won. I have never in my 56 years on this planet seen so many heart attacks from friends, family and young stud athletes. This has to be looked into. You are 100% clueless Espola and I might add a complete liar, cheater and asshole! Congratulations asshat!!!


----------



## crush

*16 year old dies suddenly......... 
Heartbreak as another young ice hockey player dies suddenly after suffering stroke complications. “After suffering a series of strokes, Cormick Scanlan passed away peacefully last night surrounded by family,” the St. Paul Capitals Hockey Association wrote on Twitter. *

I have a question. Who dies peacefully? I watched a few folks die in my life and peace was not what I saw. I saw struggle and a fight to stay alive. What a bunch of horse shit. RIP Cormack and I'm sorry that Dad and Espola think the mask and the jabs have saved lives. I can say the jabs have cost us dearly with lives lost, babies not being born and so much more adverse affects. I hate to say it, but this is just beginning. 13 knots warned all of you to make sure your kids who plays sports get their hearts and blood looked at.


----------



## crush

Safe & Effective. When you die, you will die peacefully and if your lucky, you will die with family surrounding you as you die peacefully.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

RIP Max!!


----------



## crush

*Weekly Data from New South Wales Proves that Vaccine is Ineffective Against COVID – 86% of Deaths and 80% of Hospitalizations were Vaccinated*


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

crush said:


> *Weekly Data from New South Wales Proves that Vaccine is Ineffective Against COVID – 86% of Deaths and 80% of Hospitalizations were Vaccinated*


Now look up the over 70 vaccination rate in new south Wales.

Most of the deaths were among right handed people, too.  And very few of the deaths were among redheads.  Clearly gingers and southpaws must have some kind of protection.....


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Now look up the over 70 vaccination rate in new south Wales.
> 
> Most of the deaths were among right handed people, too.  And very few of the deaths were among redheads.  Clearly gingers and southpaws must have some kind of protection.....


----------



## crush

"There was EOTL, 
there was the Golden Gate 
and of course we got Espola and the Husker Du. 
Now we got Dad WHO is the new game in town!" 
What a gig Jimmy has. Writer of songs of the different variants. Espola & Dad have their gig on here to spread lies that kill people. Way to go fellas. Now Dad is back all of a sudden to spread misinformation that is killing teenagers!!


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> What orifice did you pull "60% dead people" from?


that's really gross, I hope that isn't your go to pick up line.....won't mistake you for a gentleman sweeping anyone off of their feet. Exercise your google skills and see what your homies at the CDC were saying back in April.  A little advice, girl to boy --> Reading comprehension is sexier than gross words.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> By that definition, the smallpox vaccine was reduction.  Some people still got infected after the jab.


comparing mRNA covid vax to smallpox vax...yikes..What do you qualify as some?  

95% prevention is pretty good..immunity for 3-5 years is pretty good.  Oh, and follow up immunization is a win win.  What's exceptional about the covid vax again?  Besides decent waning protection for select demographics?


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> that's really gross, I hope that isn't your go to pick up line.....won't mistake you for a gentleman sweeping anyone off of their feet. Exercise your google skills and see what your homies at the CDC were saying back in April.  A little advice, girl to boy --> Reading comprehension is sexier than gross words.


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## crush

RIP Adam. My dad told my mother, "Eight is Enough" regarding adopting in foster care. I was # 8 and the last one. I loved this show as a kid. 

*Adam Rich, 'Eight is Enough' star, dead at 54*
*The 'Eight Is Enough' cast included Dick Van Patten as Tom Bradford, father to 8 children*


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> that's really gross, I hope that isn't your go to pick up line.....won't mistake you for a gentleman sweeping anyone off of their feet. Exercise your google skills and see what your homies at the CDC were saying back in April.  A little advice, girl to boy --> Reading comprehension is sexier than gross words.


He's one dirty old man, that's all I can say. Dude is disgusting!  BTW, watch his other avatars go off on me this week and talk about my dd not making the list when she was 12 and 13. These guys are busted. Just wait when Dom releases the "Forum Files."


----------



## crush

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


You are not worthy


Happened again said:


> that's really gross, I hope that isn't your go to pick up line.....won't mistake you for a gentleman sweeping anyone off of their feet. Exercise your google skills and see what your homies at the CDC were saying back in April.  A little advice, girl to boy --> Reading comprehension is sexier than gross words.


Every man has 2 men in him. A King and a fool. How do you know when you've found a Queen? When she speaks to the King in You. Espola, you are a damn fool!!!


----------



## crush

Looks like Doc is a snitch and a liar. I would have bailed on the tournament and not go with fake jab certificate in order to play soccer, baseball, hoops, football or tennis, moo. Rules are rules and you must follow the rules in order to pay to play with your blood and in some cases, your life! They want to force athletes to take a bio weapon in order to play in The Pay to Play Tennis Tournament. Give us your blood and you can play. Sick people we live with.









						Italian tennis star embroiled in fake vaccine certificate scandal
					

Camila Giorgi, an Italian tennis star, has been wrapped up in a controversial scandal after she was accused of having fake vaccination certificates.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## crush

*SatanCon 2023!









						The Satanic Temple dedicating 'largest satanic gathering in history' to Boston mayor, will require masks
					

The Satanic Temple is dedicating an upcoming event to Democratic Boston Mayor Michelle Wu after the city kept it from delivering an invocation before a city council meeting.




					www.foxnews.com
				



*
*The Satanic Temple dedicating 'largest satanic gathering in history' to Boston mayor, will require masks*
*SatanCon 2023 will require surgical masks and proof of COVID-19 vaccination*

Well, I will give credit to where credit is due and just say that the members of the Satanic Temple in Boston are not hypocrites and are doing what their Leader, IT wants them and all the world to do, which is obey, STFU, don't question everything about anything, wear a N-95 mask and nothing else, stand 6 feet a part when we say to do so, practice social distancing when we tell you. You MUST wash your hands before you enter the holy place and prove that you have the *"mark of the beast certificate*"  **No fake one's either or you will be punished to hell forever.
IT knows the truth so don't even try it. BTW, the beast part is me & my satire so please take with a grain of salt and of course your favorite shot. The Church of Satan was founded the year I was born you guys, 1966 out of the Black House in San Francisco. It was labelled, "The First Year of Enlightenment." I have much to say about all this someday but now is not the time. You all wouldn't believe and must would think I forgot to take my meds....lol! The last 5 years have been crazy for all of us that's for sure. FEAR is a real weapon on the brain/mind and IT knows it. IT trained it's followers well and they get paid nice and forever, that is of course you were born into IT's bloodline. What do you FEAR right now? Where is your heart, mind & soul? Ungodly FEAR only makes one lie, cheat, steal and even kill to not have FEAR. Look at all these endless wars over the last 50+ years we all have witnessed. This is not normal nor right you guys. Whose son or daughter is called to Duty this time? Come on now, stop this nonsense. I'm waiting for 90% of you to get your heads out of self pity and stand tall with the Truth. The Truth is all we got besides those who twist it and play with it to make money off their lies. This is painful except the one's at the top making a buck in this chaos and death. My buddies wife had another record year working big Pharma. Flies 1st class and goes to DC to push her products. My other buddy is a Principle and is on pace for a record year and has a job for life, just as long as he obeys the boss who also obeys his boss and so on. Some at the top even make a buck on both sides of a war, can you imagine that. Double dipping with our kids blood. I know a good Doc and he's on pace with another record year and is smiling his way to the bank. He won't look at me or talk with me eye to eye because he knows the truth. If a good Doc speaks out about the jab, he can lose his license. Insane!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## dad4

Happened again said:


> comparing mRNA covid vax to smallpox vax...yikes..What do you qualify as some?
> 
> 95% prevention is pretty good..immunity for 3-5 years is pretty good.  Oh, and follow up immunization is a win win.  What's exceptional about the covid vax again?  Besides decent waning protection for select demographics?


Me?  I don't believe any of this "reduce is not prevent" nonsense. 

My view is that an 84% reduction is better than 70% but not as good as 95%.  

If you want to know about the imaginary magic line between 84 and 95, you'll have to ask Kicker.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Me?  I don't believe any of this "reduce is not prevent" nonsense.
> 
> My view is that an 84% reduction is better than 70% but not as good as 95%.
> 
> If you want to know about the imaginary magic line between 84 and 95, you'll have to ask Kicker.


84% doesn’t justify the actions, mandates and persecution.  Especially for a 99% survival rate.  

you have yet to show me anything to change my mind other than false accusations and misquotes.  

we agree to disagree here.  Let’s leave the thread to the obscurity become.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Me?  I don't believe any of this "reduce is not prevent" nonsense.
> 
> My view is that an 84% reduction is better than 70% but not as good as 95%.
> 
> If you want to know about the imaginary magic line between 84 and 95, you'll have to ask Kicker.


Mandates hurt me Dad and the persecution was tough to take from frens, family and folks in the biz world. I don't know how one can justify their actions of y jabbed for 99% survival rate bro. No teenager or child should take this stuff, let alone your worse enemy. Something is not right dude. Is that wrong to say? No one should be fired for just saying "no" to jabs or for many, "no more boosters please, no more." I have a pal up in Seattle area and he is 100% never taking another booster again. We both know some folks WHO died of heart attacks and we both know the ex-pastor that told his flock and sister to take the jabs because Paul told everyone to obey the leader in charge. His sister's boss was pushing the jab with a quilt trip and because she was head of HR, boss man wanted her to be example of the team she was over so she caved in and then died peacefully in the hospital as loved one's came to say their good byes.


----------



## crush




----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


I've answered your question ten fold, you just don't like the answer then follow up with unsophisticated gibberish and links.


----------



## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Me?  I don't believe any of this "reduce is not prevent" nonsense.
> 
> My view is that an 84% reduction is better than 70% but not as good as 95%.
> 
> If you want to know about the imaginary magic line between 84 and 95, you'll have to ask Kicker.


you are leaving a lot out.  84% against what and for how long?  Pfizer vax was very good early against the OG then went off of a cliff.  We are well beyond the OG - mRNA just can't keep up and strains have become less disease severe.  Vax/boost for certain populations is a good idea but still not very good - 6 in 10 dead adults are vaxxed/boosted (AUG data capture).

Vax/boost away for some, leave healthy people alone, especially little healthy people


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> I've answered your question ten fold, you just don't like the answer then follow up with unsophisticated gibberish and links.


Allow me to ask again more politely (since it is no longer the weekend) -- what is the source for your statistical fragment "60% dead people"?


----------



## crush

*Weekly Australia Covid Report, yikes!!! *
Numbers never lie unless a liar is the one in charge of spinning the numbers. 
1770 in Hospital right now: 840 with 4 or more doses and no one unvaxxed. 140 in ICU and 58 with 4 or more doses, no unvaxxed. 95 deaths, 53 with 4 or more doses, no unvaxxed deaths. Wow!!!!


----------



## crush

espola said:


> Allow me to ask again more politely (since it is no longer the weekend) -- what is the sourc3 for your statistical fragment "60% dead people"?


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Looks like Alex will be the one releasing the Fauci Files. I get some popcorn out and will read. Interesting the way the court systems works.









						My first dive into the Twitter Files is coming soon
					

And the water is warm.




					alexberenson.substack.com


----------



## crush

Is THIS the "New Normal"?
					

For more exclusive interviews, insight, and analysis like this, SUBSCRIBE to The Charlie Kirk Show TODAY: https://apple.co/2VCxGsh And for EVEN MORE—tune in to The Charlie Kirk Show LIVE on Salem Radi




					rumble.com


----------



## crush

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612275241585364993


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> Allow me to ask again more politely (since it is no longer the weekend) -- what is the sourc3 for your statistical fragment "60% dead people"?


statistical fragment..I like that, much better than orifice.  6/10  dead adults vaxxed and boosted from data through AUG 22.  Numbers are from data capture from CDC. 

not so good numbers for a vaccine. can't wait for the spin.


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> statistical fragment..I like that, much better than orifice.  6/10  dead adults vaxxed and boosted from data through AUG 22.  Numbers are from data capture from CDC.
> 
> not so good numbers for a vaccine. can't wait for the spin.


----------



## espola

Happened again said:


> statistical fragment..I like that, much better than orifice.  6/10  dead adults vaxxed and boosted from data through AUG 22.  Numbers are from data capture from CDC.
> 
> not so good numbers for a vaccine. can't wait for the spin.


As I said, fragment.  And a spinning fragment at that.


----------



## crush

espola said:


> As I said, fragment.  And a spinning fragment at that.











						PBD and Neil deGrasse Tyson Debate the “Died Suddenly” Film & COVID Vaccine Side Effects
					

“I want to put everything on the table versus saying ‘no no no, there’s one thing we can’t put on the table and that’s the cause of the vaccine’”




					rumble.com


----------



## Happened again

espola said:


> As I said, fragment.  And a spinning fragment at that.


so you don't believe the CDC?  It's their number, KFF is just reporting it.  But nice job on completely side stepping the entire discussion.  Say it with me, 6 in 10 adults who died through August were vaxed and boosted.  just weird right.  

who is the vaccine good for again?  Everyone?  Are there significant problems with the vaccine?  Should it be (have been) mandated for healthy people?  Do you feel any type of dread for the young people of this country that have have been forced to receive treatment not needed?   isn't it just weird?


----------



## crush

Happened again said:


> so you don't believe the CDC?  It's their number, KFF is just reporting it.  But nice job on completely side stepping the entire discussion.  Say it with me, 6 in 10 adults who died through August were vaxed and boosted.  just weird right.
> 
> who is the vaccine good for again?  Everyone?  Are there significant problems with the vaccine?  Should it be (have been) mandated for healthy people?  Do you feel any type of dread for the young people of this country that have have been forced to receive treatment not needed?   isn't it just weird?











						SCARE EVENT - EYEDROPMEDIA
					

#ScareEvent #EyeDropMedia Just a commentary on a possible scenario, who knows what may happen. People will most certainly be waking up soon en masse. How they awaken is debatable. Only the Truth can s




					rumble.com
				




Just wait until the real scare event comes. Espola does not care and wants everyone to obey liars, cheaters and the like. It's weird that I keep waking up to this nonsense. It's weird how easy it was to get people to take not just one, but two doses. Most of my frens stopped at two. I do have a few hard core jabber friends and they are fully up to date on all shots. They also wear a mask to be safe. I will say they are very nice to me and to each his/her own is their motto. I ran into one the other day and they just look scared. SADS is now the new normal and it doesn't matter if your jabbed or not, some of us will die suddenly. I would prefer to die peacefully in my sleep with no pain.


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## espola

Happened again said:


> so you don't believe the CDC?  It's their number, KFF is just reporting it.  But nice job on completely side stepping the entire discussion.  Say it with me, 6 in 10 adults who died through August were vaxed and boosted.  just weird right.
> 
> who is the vaccine good for again?  Everyone?  Are there significant problems with the vaccine?  Should it be (have been) mandated for healthy people?  Do you feel any type of dread for the young people of this country that have have been forced to receive treatment not needed?   isn't it just weird?


You're reading the stats inside out.  Are you doing that on your own, or are you the victim of a liar with an agenda?


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> You're reading the stats inside out.


Prove it…


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Prove it…


I'm assuming you don't want me to prove that there are liars with agendas.

Take a college-level course in statistics, probability, or scientific data management and get back to me.


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I'm assuming you don't want me to prove that there are liars with agendas.
> 
> Take a college-level course in statistics, probability, or scientific data management and get back to me.


No dip shit…you say they are misreading stats, prove it!

Or keep deflecting because you can’t prove it, because it is just your opinion.

pS - I have a minor in both Econ and statistics so there is that!


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> No dip shit…you say they are misreading stats, prove it!
> 
> Or keep deflecting because you can’t prove it, because it is just your opinion.
> 
> pS - I have a minor in both Econ and statistics so there is that!


I thought we weren't going to pursue the liars with agendas angle.


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## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I thought we weren't going to pursue the liars with agendas angle.


So you can’t prove that their statement is wrong….got it.


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## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> No dip shit…you say they are misreading stats, prove it!
> 
> Or keep deflecting because you can’t prove it, because it is just your opinion.
> 
> pS - I have a minor in both Econ and statistics so there is that!


If you have a stats minor, then why such trouble handling the probability distribution in vaccine efficacy?

I get the argument that certain things ought not be mandated.  That’s just a moral question where we disagree.

I don’t get the “reduction != prevention” schtick.  Any stats minor ought to have the math chops to handle repeated probabilistic events.  You were tossing up nonsense like “some vaccinated people still got covid, therefore it isn’t a vaccine”.


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## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> If you have a stats minor, then why such trouble handling the probability distribution in vaccine efficacy?
> 
> I get the argument that certain things ought not be mandated.  That’s just a moral question where we disagree.
> 
> I don’t get the “reduction != prevention” schtick.  Any stats minor ought to have the math chops to handle repeated probabilistic events.  You were tossing up nonsense like “some vaccinated people still got covid, therefore it isn’t a vaccine”.


Schtick?  So by definition PREVENTION and REDUCTION are the same thing?  Shall we refer to Webster on this?  Maybe a wager that they are not bey definition the same? You can Venmo me the cash.

I repeat for the umpteenth time….this is nothing more than a Flu Shot that should have never been mandated in the manner it was.  Military personnel, First Responders and tens of thousands of others lost their jobs over it.  People were ostracized and publicly ridiculed over it.  All for something that turned out didn’t do what those dictating to the world said it would do, “the virus stops with you”.


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## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Schtick?  So by definition PREVENTION and REDUCTION are the same thing?  Shall we refer to Webster on this?  Maybe a wager that they are not bey definition the same? You can Venmo me the cash.
> 
> I repeat for the umpteenth time….this is nothing more than a Flu Shot that should have never been mandated in the manner it was.  Military personnel, First Responders and tens of thousands of others lost their jobs over it.  People were ostracized and publicly ridiculed over it.  All for something that turned out didn’t do what those dictating to the world said it would do, “the virus stops with you”.


Why Webster’s?  We aren’t American Studies majors who hide in a closet every time numbers come up.  If you’ve got the stat’s minor, use it.   

You have a chain of repeated probability events.  You have the ability to change the average return by some amount.  Does this, or does this not, change your total return?  By how much?

It’s essentially the same question as what happens to a casino if you improve the odds at the roulette table by x%And the correct answer is NOT that the casino’s profits change by x%.


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## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Why Webster’s?  We aren’t American Studies majors who hide in a closet every time numbers come up.  If you’ve got the stat’s minor, use it.
> 
> You have a chain of repeated probability events.  You have the ability to change the average return by some amount.  Does this, or does this not, change your total return?  By how much?
> 
> It’s essentially the same question as what happens to a casino if you improve the odds at the roulette table by x%And the correct answer is NOT that the casino’s profits change by x%.


I don’t need a statistical analysis to argue my point that Prevention and Reduction are not the same.  They may be used somewhat interchangeably in the scientific field but only in certain terms of how much prevention creates reduction. Once again, not the same.

Enough is enough.  Let Magoo fight his own battles.  

He likes to make comments refuting other people’s statements without the ability to back up what is actually only his opinion.

Have a nice day


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## espola

dad4 said:


> If you have a stats minor, then why such trouble handling the probability distribution in vaccine efficacy?
> 
> I get the argument that certain things ought not be mandated.  That’s just a moral question where we disagree.
> 
> I don’t get the “reduction != prevention” schtick.  Any stats minor ought to have the math chops to handle repeated probabilistic events.  You were tossing up nonsense like “some vaccinated people still got covid, therefore it isn’t a vaccine”.


It looks to me as if he is rationalizing his fear of needles into an anti-vax position based on a statistical quirk.  I doubt that he dug up that little fragment all by himself, but he hasn't been forthcoming as to its source.


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## crush

RIP Hunter!!!



*Air Force Academy Offensive Lineman Hunter Brown Dies Suddenly While Walking to Class*


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## Happened again

dad4 said:


> If you have a stats minor, then why such trouble handling the probability distribution in vaccine efficacy?
> 
> I get the argument that certain things ought not be mandated.  That’s just a moral question where we disagree.
> 
> I don’t get the “reduction != prevention” schtick.  Any stats minor ought to have the math chops to handle repeated probabilistic events.  You were tossing up nonsense like “some vaccinated people still got covid, therefore it isn’t a vaccine”.


Yikes, a moral question?  With the data available it's a moral question?  "probability distribution in vaccine efficacy"??  That went out the door once the vaccines really starting sucking.  Where would you start with it? against which variant?  It's not about the math silly, it's about medicine..and this medicine sucks. 

"some vaccinated people still got covid, therefore it isn’t a vaccine"  Change this to most then spitball some stats.


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## Happened again

espola said:


> It looks to me as if he is rationalizing his fear of needles into an anti-vax position based on a statistical quirk.  I doubt that he dug up that little fragment all by himself, but he hasn't been forthcoming as to its source.


What's the quirk? 6 in 10 dead adults, as reported by the CDC were vaxed and boosted?  Needles are scary, especially in this context.


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## crush




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## Happened again

espola said:


> You're reading the stats inside out.  Are you doing that on your own, or are you the victim of a liar with an agenda?


Complete gibberish from you.  Liars and agendas are very common, as you seem to know..especially common in the bobble head medical community - that last few years has seen that play out.  How many bobbleheads are still on TV?  Not many, their schtick is up.


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## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Why Webster’s?  We aren’t American Studies majors who hide in a closet every time numbers come up.  If you’ve got the stat’s minor, use it.
> 
> You have a chain of repeated probability events.  You have the ability to change the average return by some amount.  Does this, or does this not, change your total return?  By how much?
> 
> It’s essentially the same question as what happens to a casino if you improve the odds at the roulette table by x%And the correct answer is NOT that the casino’s profits change by x%.


Ha...I see that you've picked up the flag you firmly planted on the top of the vax/mask hill and took it home.  It will be fascinating, from a morbid medical research perspective how this all plays out over the next 10-20 years....But you will be ok, your chops will help you in your interpretation of the facts.


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## espola

Happened again said:


> Complete gibberish from you.  Liars and agendas are very common, as you seem to know..especially common in the bobble head medical community - that last few years has seen that play out.  How many bobbleheads are still on TV?  Not many, their schtick is up.


You're babbling.


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## espola

Happened again said:


> What's the quirk? 6 in 10 dead adults, as reported by the CDC were vaxed and boosted?  Needles are scary, especially in this context.


Are you going to tell us now where you got it?


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## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> No dip shit…you say they are misreading stats, prove it!
> 
> Or keep deflecting because you can’t prove it, because it is just your opinion.
> 
> pS - I have a minor in both Econ and statistics so there is that!


Given a population A with a proportion p of a certain characteristic, what are the expected results when choosing a sample B from A that the sample will have proportion q of that same characteristic?  How is the result affected when p is close to 1?


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## crush

*17-Year-Old High School Student in Ohio Dies Suddenly From “Cardiac Arrest” While at School

“Blaze Jacobs, a junior in our building, had cardiac arrest activity and was transported to Children’s Hospital this morning. We have received the information that Blaze has passed away,” Mrs. Cooper said in a statement. *


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> Are you going to tell us now where you got it?


Like you ever do. Hey.. " Russia spies on ALL foreign tourist ". . and provides no proof of it.


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> You're babbling.


Said the kettle...


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## Multi Sport

espola said:


> It looks to me as if he is rationalizing his fear of needles into an anti-vax position based on a statistical quirk.  I doubt that he dug up that little fragment all by himself, but he hasn't been forthcoming as to its source.


C'mon Magoo..
Your game has eroded...


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## espola

Multi Sport said:


> Like you ever do. Hey.. " Russia spies on ALL foreign tourist ". . and provides no proof of it.


Your ignorance is neither surprising nor my problem.


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## kickingandscreaming

Remember when several on here supported the idea that the vaccine gives greater protection than being previously infected? Yeah, no. That never passed the smell test, but it was quickly supported by the authoritarians here - @dad4, @espola, @EOTL and his spawn.






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				











						Vaccination or Acquired Immunity. Which is Better?
					

The question of the protection afforded by COVID infection vs. the immunity conferred by the mRNA vaccines is still unsettled. A new study may put our concerns to rest. Spoiler alert: each form of immunity has its strengths.




					www.acsh.org
				




It will be interesting to see where the data leads w.r.t. athletes and young people dropping dead and/or having cardiac episodes. Experts indicated rather early in the vaccine process that young men developed myocarditis at a concerning rate. The data will eventually be there for that question and many more. It could end a few careers. Of course, a looney tune like Paul Ehrlich still gets a platform to yell "fire" on 60 Minutes after having done so incorrectly multiple times, so who knows? But if you think Gio's mom was unhinged for what she did to Berhalter regarding his treatment of her son, wait until you see what happens if these moms and dads find out their boys and girls died from a vaccine they didn't need to take based on the risk profile. As usual, the only "winners" in this scenario will be the lawyers.


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## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Remember when several on here supported the idea that the vaccine gives greater protection than being previously infected? Yeah, no. That never passed the smell test, but it was quickly supported by the authoritarians here - @dad4, @espola, @EOTL and his spawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccination or Acquired Immunity. Which is Better?
> 
> 
> The question of the protection afforded by COVID infection vs. the immunity conferred by the mRNA vaccines is still unsettled. A new study may put our concerns to rest. Spoiler alert: each form of immunity has its strengths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.acsh.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see where the data leads w.r.t. athletes and young people dropping dead and/or having cardiac episodes. Experts indicated rather early in the vaccine process that young men developed myocarditis at a concerning rate. The data will eventually be there for that question and many more. It could end a few careers. Of course, a looney tune like Paul Ehrlich still gets a platform to yell "fire" on 60 Minutes after having done so incorrectly multiple times, so who knows? But if you think Gio's mom was unhinged for what she did to Berhalter regarding his treatment of her son, wait until you see what happens if these moms and dads find out their boys and girls died from a vaccine they didn't need to take based on the risk profile. As usual, the only "winners" in this scenario will be the lawyers.


I'm surprised to find out that I am an authoritarian.  You don't know me very well.


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## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Remember when several on here supported the idea that the vaccine gives greater protection than being previously infected? Yeah, no. That never passed the smell test, but it was quickly supported by the authoritarians here - @dad4, @espola, @EOTL and his spawn.


Natural v/s vaccine immunity was only an argument pushed by the anti vax folks.  We pro-vax folks were kind of confused that people were arguing that they wanted to get covid, so that they would become immune, so that they wouldn’t get covid.  It is kind of like saying you’re going to shoot yourself in the foot so that you know not to shoot yourself in the foot.

The main pro vax argument had nothing to do with which type is better.  The best argument was that the primary path to acquiring natural immunity has three nasty side effects.  One- you get covid.  Two- you spread covid to others.  Three- you help incubate new covid variants.

I’m hoping we don’t see much of #3 coming out of China’s current wave.   But we may.  I still think they would have been better off paying for Moderna instead of using a cut rate domestic version.


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## espola

dad4 said:


> Natural v/s vaccine immunity was only an argument pushed by the anti vax folks.  We pro-vax folks were kind of confused that people were arguing that they wanted to get covid, so that they would become immune, so that they wouldn’t get covid.  It is kind of like saying you’re going to shoot yourself in the foot so that you know not to shoot yourself in the foot.
> 
> The main pro vax argument had nothing to do with which type is better.  The best argument was that the primary path to acquiring natural immunity has three nasty side effects.  One- you get covid.  Two- you spread covid to others.  Three- you help incubate new covid variants.
> 
> I’m hoping we don’t see much of #3 coming out of China’s current wave.   But we may.  I still think they would have been better off paying for Moderna instead of using a cut rate domestic version.


From the article he cited but apparently didn't comprehend --

<<
If you are willing to risk hospitalization, death, or prolonged illness (currently termed Long COVID), then naturally acquired immunity will be more robust in protecting you from a second episode. It will not be as protective from the outcomes of that second infection. This is a real-world example of the tradeoff between “an abundance of caution” and rolling the viral dice that may or may not be loaded by your underlying frailty as measured by risk factors or your access to care. 
>>


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## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Remember when several on here supported the idea that the vaccine gives greater protection than being previously infected? Yeah, no. That never passed the smell test, but it was quickly supported by the authoritarians here - @dad4, @espola, @EOTL and his spawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccination or Acquired Immunity. Which is Better?
> 
> 
> The question of the protection afforded by COVID infection vs. the immunity conferred by the mRNA vaccines is still unsettled. A new study may put our concerns to rest. Spoiler alert: each form of immunity has its strengths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.acsh.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see where the data leads w.r.t. athletes and young people dropping dead and/or having cardiac episodes. Experts indicated rather early in the vaccine process that young men developed myocarditis at a concerning rate. The data will eventually be there for that question and many more. It could end a few careers. Of course, a looney tune like Paul Ehrlich still gets a platform to yell "fire" on 60 Minutes after having done so incorrectly multiple times, so who knows? But if you think Gio's mom was unhinged for what she did to Berhalter regarding his treatment of her son, wait until you see what happens if these moms and dads find out their boys and girls died from a vaccine they didn't need to take based on the risk profile. As usual, the only "winners" in this scenario will be the lawyers.


I love you brother. They "coerced" EVERYONE who wanted to play high level sports to be fully jabbed or no play. High level athletes are born with a rare instinct to work hard to win and a goal to be their best and ain't nothing going to stop that for 99%. "They" also coerced us parents to take the jabs or we would be fired and lose EVERYTHING we worked so hard to achieve. Our kids saw the stress on mom and dad. It was a tough choice and I saw good friends agonies over the decision, Jab or no Jab. Two years later and now these same friends have had adverse reactions that have caused Blood Clots, Massice Cardiac Arrest, Cardiac Arrest, Heart Attacks, Myocarditis, Bells, the thing Justin, Katie and Celine have and sometimes death. Cardiac Arrest in young athlete's in their prime needs to be looked at 100%. Kids walking to class and then dying needs to be looked at 100%. Healthy 50 year old's dying in their sleep peacefully needs to be looked at 100%. The first step in humility 101 is to utter the three magic words: I Was Wrong or I Am Sorry or Please Forgive Me or I Forgive You or I Love You.
After finding that inner peace, we need to wake up and lead with Empathy, Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy. I have news for everyone on here. Karma is coming and no one will escape it's pain. Justice Is Coming and for some, Justice is here and for others, justice came and they are gone. "Blessed for those who mourn, for they will be comforted." Pay To Play was how we were all taught to play. Tel A Vision played a big roll into shaping us. I hated school and just day dreamed of playing professional sports as I looked out my 6th grade window at the playground and the Pacific Ocean in the back drop. Another schoolmate dreamed of being on the Supreme Court some day and by golly, he might just do it. I had another pal dream about being a top lawyer and boy is he. Still another who dreamed of being a top Realtor and he's one of the top and the list goes on and on. Something very wrong happen to all of us. 4-6% are lost forever. They (Klause and Krew at WEF)) wanted to de-populate the world and start all over with just the top bloodlines, their family and some of their friends in high places and a few really good ass kissers. From what I have read and saw, this group was well on it's way to achieving their goals and bought, bribed and blackmailed just about everyone. As sick as this sounds and harder to believe, it get's worse bro and will get worse before things get better. 4-6% is better than 95% wiped off with a deadly Kool Aid shot that we all would have been forced to drink. Sometimes great leaders with good hearts have only two bad choices to choose and both will result in high death and you have to pick one over the other and no turning back. Thank God for people like me and I say that with humility. Their is a group of humans who said no to the jabs for some reason and lost their lively hood and some lost college scholarship and pay checks because they saw what most did not see. This does not make me or them better than anyone who took the jabs, but we should be thanked. Without folks like me, we would not have the data and the live test to see the results.


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## crush

*Kindergarten Student in Ohio Dies Suddenly-RIP Sweet Soul *


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## crush




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## Happened again

dad4 said:


> Natural v/s vaccine immunity was only an argument pushed by the anti vax folks.  We pro-vax folks were kind of confused that people were arguing that they wanted to get covid, so that they would become immune, so that they wouldn’t get covid.  It is kind of like saying you’re going to shoot yourself in the foot so that you know not to shoot yourself in the foot.
> 
> The main pro vax argument had nothing to do with which type is better.  The best argument was that the primary path to acquiring natural immunity has three nasty side effects.  One- you get covid.  Two- you spread covid to others.  Three- you help incubate new covid variants.
> 
> I’m hoping we don’t see much of #3 coming out of China’s current wave.   But we may.  I still think they would have been better off paying for Moderna instead of using a cut rate domestic version.


complete nonsense, what is up with your logic?  You are still on the vax healthy people train? Even with all of the data available?  Your "chops" should help with decision making after you've analyzed the vax data.  

What is the "main pro vax argument"?  Wasn't it prevent transmission and provide immunity for all? That went down the toilet rather quickly. What was the argument after that?  Reduction in severity of disease?  That also went down the toilet once the mutation party started. mRNA doesn't keep up, it just doesn't.

Extremists on both sides (pro/anti vax).  Logical people who understand science/medicine understand the tools of their trade - vax those most vulnerable, leave healthy people alone.  If you haven't contracted covid, you will, whether you are vaxed or not.  

Current strains don't care about vaccines, they easily evade them.


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## Happened again

espola said:


> Given a population A with a proportion p of a certain characteristic, what are the expected results when choosing a sample B from A that the sample will have proportion q of that same characteristic?  How is the result affected when p is close to 1?


you are a crack up.


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## dad4

Happened again said:


> complete nonsense, what is up with your logic?  You are still on the vax healthy people train? Even with all of the data available?  Your "chops" should help with decision making after you've analyzed the vax data.
> 
> What is the "main pro vax argument"?  Wasn't it prevent transmission and provide immunity for all? That went down the toilet rather quickly. What was the argument after that?  Reduction in severity of disease?  That also went down the toilet once the mutation party started. mRNA doesn't keep up, it just doesn't.
> 
> Extremists on both sides (pro/anti vax).  Logical people who understand science/medicine understand the tools of their trade - *vax those most vulnerable*, leave healthy people alone.  If you haven't contracted covid, you will, whether you are vaxed or not.
> 
> *Current strains don't care about vaccines*, they easily evade them.


In your post, you claim that current strains are unaffected by vaccines, and that we should vaccinate the elderly.

How the heck does that make any sense?  It’s not even internally consistent.  If vaccines don’t work at all, how would they protect the vulnerable?


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## Happened again

dad4 said:


> In your post, you claim that current strains are unaffected by vaccines, and that we should vaccinate the elderly.
> 
> How the heck does that make any sense?  It’s not even internally consistent.  If vaccines don’t work at all, how would they protect the vulnerable?




Oh E....

Anyway, nuance is certainly a thing and not your strong suit.  I love the fact that this is your take away.  Little o and it's babies are really good at evading vaccine and natural  immunity, really good.  so good in fact that that the disease isn't as severe.  The elderly, and the immune compromised benefit some what from vaccine induced immunity, with consistent boosting of course.  It's unfortunate that in the US, we don't really adhere to extended dosing intervals, which always, always makes vaccination more effective.  

The vaccines don't really work but they work well enough for some...but you have to boost away.  Emerging data clearly shows boosting could be having a negative impact on the immune system, putting us in a dangerous loop.  Boost the elderly, they have a limited time on this planet, protect the young and healthy, don't compromise their immune system.  I can't believe parents are still walking in and demanding boosters for their kids...and that universities are demanding boosters, especially for athletes.  Sad state of affairs that will play out over the next few decades.  I feel sad for those parents who were pressured into vaccinating their children and did so.  Anecdotal evidence and research data will soon merge and people are going to be pissed.


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## Mad Hatter

Opinion | How Deadly Were the Covid Lockdowns?
					

For Americans under 45, there were more excess deaths without the virus in 2020-21 than with it.




					www.wsj.com


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## espola

Happened again said:


> View attachment 15366
> 
> Oh E....
> 
> Anyway, nuance is certainly a thing and not your strong suit.  I love the fact that this is your take away.  Little o and it's babies are really good at evading vaccine and natural  immunity, really good.  so good in fact that that the disease isn't as severe.  The elderly, and the immune compromised benefit some what from vaccine induced immunity, with consistent boosting of course.  It's unfortunate that in the US, we don't really adhere to extended dosing intervals, which always, always makes vaccination more effective.
> 
> The vaccines don't really work but they work well enough for some...but you have to boost away.  Emerging data clearly shows boosting could be having a negative impact on the immune system, putting us in a dangerous loop.  Boost the elderly, they have a limited time on this planet, protect the young and healthy, don't compromise their immune system.  I can't believe parents are still walking in and demanding boosters for their kids...and that universities are demanding boosters, especially for athletes.  Sad state of affairs that will play out over the next few decades.  I feel sad for those parents who were pressured into vaccinating their children and did so.  Anecdotal evidence and research data will soon merge and people are going to be pissed.


I feel sad for you.


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